by liberal japonicus
I think that there is still a lot of talk left about racism (As DiAngelo said, white people always have an opinion on racism, white people including me), though if you are exhausted, I totally understand. But for anyone who still wants to talk about it, there is something below the fold.
While this post won’t have the rules that the other one did, I would ask that you avoid hyperbolic posts. Thanks.
Fascinating piece of film, lj. “Is the tape off?”
Thank you.
Fascinating piece of film, lj. “Is the tape off?”
Thank you.
From FB again. The need for co-conspirators rather than allies in the fight for equality:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4804332/user-clip-conspirators
From FB again. The need for co-conspirators rather than allies in the fight for equality:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4804332/user-clip-conspirators
The history of black people and American music is almost too deep and tangled to unpack. I’m not sure how to even start on the topic.
To give a tiny window into it, I offer this quote, from jazz vocalist Joe Williams, speaking of bass player Carole Kaye:
Kaye is a blond white woman, originally from Everett WA, who made a career as an A-list session bass player in the LA pop scene.
What is Williams saying? What does it mean for a blond white woman musician to be “black”?
Pull that thread and see how many directions it takes you in. Start with the fact that it was intended to be a compliment of the highest order.
Also just want to say that Bowie, for all his early transgressive glam showboating and mid-career coke-fueled dark years, was one of the most intelligent, thoughtful, and interesting cats in rock. He spoke at various times of wanting to challenge and change the culture, and saw popular music as an instrument for doing that.
I’m not surprised to see him taking this line of questioning in the clip. Politely, in his very British way, taking no shit, and giving no easy way out.
A remarkable person.
The history of black people and American music is almost too deep and tangled to unpack. I’m not sure how to even start on the topic.
To give a tiny window into it, I offer this quote, from jazz vocalist Joe Williams, speaking of bass player Carole Kaye:
Kaye is a blond white woman, originally from Everett WA, who made a career as an A-list session bass player in the LA pop scene.
What is Williams saying? What does it mean for a blond white woman musician to be “black”?
Pull that thread and see how many directions it takes you in. Start with the fact that it was intended to be a compliment of the highest order.
Also just want to say that Bowie, for all his early transgressive glam showboating and mid-career coke-fueled dark years, was one of the most intelligent, thoughtful, and interesting cats in rock. He spoke at various times of wanting to challenge and change the culture, and saw popular music as an instrument for doing that.
I’m not surprised to see him taking this line of questioning in the clip. Politely, in his very British way, taking no shit, and giving no easy way out.
A remarkable person.
i accidentally wrote “Moonage Daydream” last week. i was very proud of that chord sequence, for about three minutes. and then i thought maybe i’d heard it somewhere before…?
Bowie was a magician.
i accidentally wrote “Moonage Daydream” last week. i was very proud of that chord sequence, for about three minutes. and then i thought maybe i’d heard it somewhere before…?
Bowie was a magician.
Given a choice between doing the right thing and taking the easy money…
Given a choice between doing the right thing and taking the easy money…
MTV ultimately came to feature black music pretty heavily (before they stopped featuring music much at all around the time I completely outgrew it). I can’t help but wonder if that Bowie exchange influenced that change, even if it did come fully to fruition for several years. (Or did Michael Jackson’s MTV explosion render Bowie’s words moot?)
Off-topic aside:
After I had stopped watching MTV even occasionally at home, Live 8 happened. I was in Philly during the event, though on the periphery. We popped into a bar showing MTV’s coverage on their TV right when the Pink Floyd reunion was happening in London.
I knew then that the “M” in MTV had lost nearly all of its meaning, because they interrupted the live concert coverage mid-song (Comfortably Numb, maybe?) for some insipid commentary from one of their “reporters.” Everyone in the bar started shouting obscenities. An utterly historic moment in popular music interrupted for the equivalent of “Hey, everyone. We’re at Live 8. Isn’t this cool? Wow!”
MTV ultimately came to feature black music pretty heavily (before they stopped featuring music much at all around the time I completely outgrew it). I can’t help but wonder if that Bowie exchange influenced that change, even if it did come fully to fruition for several years. (Or did Michael Jackson’s MTV explosion render Bowie’s words moot?)
Off-topic aside:
After I had stopped watching MTV even occasionally at home, Live 8 happened. I was in Philly during the event, though on the periphery. We popped into a bar showing MTV’s coverage on their TV right when the Pink Floyd reunion was happening in London.
I knew then that the “M” in MTV had lost nearly all of its meaning, because they interrupted the live concert coverage mid-song (Comfortably Numb, maybe?) for some insipid commentary from one of their “reporters.” Everyone in the bar started shouting obscenities. An utterly historic moment in popular music interrupted for the equivalent of “Hey, everyone. We’re at Live 8. Isn’t this cool? Wow!”
even if it didn’t come fully to fruition
even if it didn’t come fully to fruition
Don’t forget the panic point in the 80s/90s handoff when Yo, MTV Raps blew up and hip hop culture spread into the midwest.
Don’t forget the panic point in the 80s/90s handoff when Yo, MTV Raps blew up and hip hop culture spread into the midwest.
If you want a better done (than DiAngelo’s) discussion on the topic, try this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/podcasts/cape-up/the-author-of-white-rage-on-the-persistent-pattern-of-punishing-blacks-for-their-resilience/
If you want a better done (than DiAngelo’s) discussion on the topic, try this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/podcasts/cape-up/the-author-of-white-rage-on-the-persistent-pattern-of-punishing-blacks-for-their-resilience/
The history of black people and American music is almost too deep and tangled to unpack.
Indeed, rock, jazz, rap, etc. are essentially black forms, sometimes somewhat sanitized for white audiences.
The history of black people and American music is almost too deep and tangled to unpack.
Indeed, rock, jazz, rap, etc. are essentially black forms, sometimes somewhat sanitized for white audiences.
I wonder what the commentariat think about cultural appropriation generally? I’m asking because the Dem housemembers kneeling with kente cloth stoles reminded me how much I love kente cloth. Leaving aside the question of its connection to slavery, which seems complicated and ambiguous, I wonder what you all would think of a theoretical white woman who wore a garment made of kente cloth (not me, I couldn’t afford it!). I grew up with white women wearing padded silk chinese jackets, or much more rarely cheong sams, and still find it hard to condemn. But then, I may not be sufficiently woke for this day and age. Does anybody here have a strong (or even a weak) opinion on this very controversial question?
I wonder what the commentariat think about cultural appropriation generally? I’m asking because the Dem housemembers kneeling with kente cloth stoles reminded me how much I love kente cloth. Leaving aside the question of its connection to slavery, which seems complicated and ambiguous, I wonder what you all would think of a theoretical white woman who wore a garment made of kente cloth (not me, I couldn’t afford it!). I grew up with white women wearing padded silk chinese jackets, or much more rarely cheong sams, and still find it hard to condemn. But then, I may not be sufficiently woke for this day and age. Does anybody here have a strong (or even a weak) opinion on this very controversial question?
I just figure cultures are porous. It’s hard or impossible to keep them from leaking into each other.
The issue with black music being appropriated by white musicians, specifically, is that the black guys historically haven’t gotten much money out of it. As a generalization.
The issue with Carole Kaye, specifically, is that she plays her ass off, and has earned the respect of musicians of all colors.
I just figure cultures are porous. It’s hard or impossible to keep them from leaking into each other.
The issue with black music being appropriated by white musicians, specifically, is that the black guys historically haven’t gotten much money out of it. As a generalization.
The issue with Carole Kaye, specifically, is that she plays her ass off, and has earned the respect of musicians of all colors.
Cultural appropriation outrage seems to be a part of the larger cancel culture. It gives people the excuse to shame others on behalf of minorities who often couldn’t care less.
Cultural appropriation outrage seems to be a part of the larger cancel culture. It gives people the excuse to shame others on behalf of minorities who often couldn’t care less.
I guess the weavers of the kente cloth would get the same money whoever wore it. I agree with your concept of porous cultures, russell. It seems much more expansive and inclusive to me, if the original culture is acknowledged, and more particularly, recompensed. But I’m open to argument. There’s a huge brouhaha going on in the food world at the moment, for instance, about white people writing about the food of other cultures, and natives of those cultures not getting the chance to do so. It’s complicated, too complicated to go into on a phone!
I guess the weavers of the kente cloth would get the same money whoever wore it. I agree with your concept of porous cultures, russell. It seems much more expansive and inclusive to me, if the original culture is acknowledged, and more particularly, recompensed. But I’m open to argument. There’s a huge brouhaha going on in the food world at the moment, for instance, about white people writing about the food of other cultures, and natives of those cultures not getting the chance to do so. It’s complicated, too complicated to go into on a phone!
Agree with russell that the heart of the matter is one of equitable reward.
If something (an industry, a country, a family fortune) has been built on the stolen resources or labor of another (colonialism, slavery), leaving those people only their culture and art to call their own, it seems like a complete asshole move to come in and then try to commodify that culture and art in a way that again cuts them off from any reward. This is especially true for the auteur class. Don’t step on someone else’s hustle when they are already boxed into a limited set of hustles.
Second level of cultural appropriation – it’s insulting to turn someone else’s identity into a fun costume or a caricatured mascot, especially one that trades on some essentialized notion of race. Call this the Disney level.
From there things get a little more fuzzy and fraught, but Wheaton’s Law is always a good policy: “Don’t be a dick.”
Agree with russell that the heart of the matter is one of equitable reward.
If something (an industry, a country, a family fortune) has been built on the stolen resources or labor of another (colonialism, slavery), leaving those people only their culture and art to call their own, it seems like a complete asshole move to come in and then try to commodify that culture and art in a way that again cuts them off from any reward. This is especially true for the auteur class. Don’t step on someone else’s hustle when they are already boxed into a limited set of hustles.
Second level of cultural appropriation – it’s insulting to turn someone else’s identity into a fun costume or a caricatured mascot, especially one that trades on some essentialized notion of race. Call this the Disney level.
From there things get a little more fuzzy and fraught, but Wheaton’s Law is always a good policy: “Don’t be a dick.”
Does anybody here have a strong (or even a weak) opinion on this very controversial question?
I have an opinion, which is only strong in certain areas. For example, food. I really hate cultural appropriation arguments about food, other than acknowledging the legitimate history of where a food tradition has come from. Obviously, if “appropriation” means lying about who created the food tradition (pretending that Southern recipes weren’t created/influenced by African enslaved people), that’s wrong. But people who want to cook that food, or create businesses cooking that food, while acknowledging its origins? That’s okay with me.
This reasoning applies to the arts. People who find their inspiration anywhere should go with that, acknowledging it, of course.
Does anybody here have a strong (or even a weak) opinion on this very controversial question?
I have an opinion, which is only strong in certain areas. For example, food. I really hate cultural appropriation arguments about food, other than acknowledging the legitimate history of where a food tradition has come from. Obviously, if “appropriation” means lying about who created the food tradition (pretending that Southern recipes weren’t created/influenced by African enslaved people), that’s wrong. But people who want to cook that food, or create businesses cooking that food, while acknowledging its origins? That’s okay with me.
This reasoning applies to the arts. People who find their inspiration anywhere should go with that, acknowledging it, of course.
Don’t step on someone else’s hustle when they are already boxed into a limited set of hustles.
This is a bit complicated. For example, people who popularize a genre that doesn’t “belong” to them can actually assist people who do more legitimately “own” it make money from it.
Second level of cultural appropriation – it’s insulting to turn someone else’s identity into a fun costume or a caricatured mascot, especially one that trades on some essentialized notion of race. Call this the Disney level.
This seems right to me. It’s probably important to discern the cultural meaning of certain clothing traditions.
I grew up with white women wearing padded silk chinese jackets, or much more rarely cheong sams, and still find it hard to condemn.
When that was happening in my youth, I wasn’t aware of any objection to it. It’s important to listen to objections (and to be sensitive). Clothing is tricky. It’s not just a cultural identity issue, but can be a personal one.
Don’t step on someone else’s hustle when they are already boxed into a limited set of hustles.
This is a bit complicated. For example, people who popularize a genre that doesn’t “belong” to them can actually assist people who do more legitimately “own” it make money from it.
Second level of cultural appropriation – it’s insulting to turn someone else’s identity into a fun costume or a caricatured mascot, especially one that trades on some essentialized notion of race. Call this the Disney level.
This seems right to me. It’s probably important to discern the cultural meaning of certain clothing traditions.
I grew up with white women wearing padded silk chinese jackets, or much more rarely cheong sams, and still find it hard to condemn.
When that was happening in my youth, I wasn’t aware of any objection to it. It’s important to listen to objections (and to be sensitive). Clothing is tricky. It’s not just a cultural identity issue, but can be a personal one.
I wonder what the commentariat think about cultural appropriation generally?
As opposed to, say, cultural imperialism? Since they are both matters of stuff from one culture being taken up by another culture. The only difference being whether you are objecting on behalf of the culture doing the exporting or the culture doing the importing.
I’d agree with russell that the only real issue is compensation for the artists who originally come up with something. But if the “something” is, for example, jazz as a style (as opposed to a particular jazz composition), who is there to compensate?
I wonder what the commentariat think about cultural appropriation generally?
As opposed to, say, cultural imperialism? Since they are both matters of stuff from one culture being taken up by another culture. The only difference being whether you are objecting on behalf of the culture doing the exporting or the culture doing the importing.
I’d agree with russell that the only real issue is compensation for the artists who originally come up with something. But if the “something” is, for example, jazz as a style (as opposed to a particular jazz composition), who is there to compensate?
But if the “something” is, for example, jazz as a style (as opposed to a particular jazz composition), who is there to compensate?
The classic complaint of black jazz musicians historically has been that white guys came around, copped their style, and made big money off it, while they (the black musicians) were scraping by.
There’s a **lot** of justification for that in early days, probably through mid-20th C. Less so since then.
At this point, jazz is an international style, more accurately a portfolio of styles and traditions, some of them rooted in black America, lots of them not remotely rooted in black America.
Blues -> swing -> bebop and hard bop -> modal styles through the late 60’s and early 70’s is basically the “rooted in black America” family tree, as far as jazz goes. And for a lot of that time, it was more difficult for black performers than for white ones, even performing in much the same styles.
So, a complaint that had some merit, if less relevant now. Kind of the same story in blues and R&B.
Nowadays, nobody makes money playing jazz. It’s equal opportunity poverty!
🙂
But if the “something” is, for example, jazz as a style (as opposed to a particular jazz composition), who is there to compensate?
The classic complaint of black jazz musicians historically has been that white guys came around, copped their style, and made big money off it, while they (the black musicians) were scraping by.
There’s a **lot** of justification for that in early days, probably through mid-20th C. Less so since then.
At this point, jazz is an international style, more accurately a portfolio of styles and traditions, some of them rooted in black America, lots of them not remotely rooted in black America.
Blues -> swing -> bebop and hard bop -> modal styles through the late 60’s and early 70’s is basically the “rooted in black America” family tree, as far as jazz goes. And for a lot of that time, it was more difficult for black performers than for white ones, even performing in much the same styles.
So, a complaint that had some merit, if less relevant now. Kind of the same story in blues and R&B.
Nowadays, nobody makes money playing jazz. It’s equal opportunity poverty!
🙂
I’m with Russell that the money is what matters, and of course the black musicians routinely got the short end, if they got an end at all.
Aside from that, the whole “cultural appropriation” business strikes me as generally silly. If O’Hara’s Restaurant wants to serve lox and bagels at its Sunday brunch, that’s fine with me, though I might be a bit suspicious of the quality.
I’m with Russell that the money is what matters, and of course the black musicians routinely got the short end, if they got an end at all.
Aside from that, the whole “cultural appropriation” business strikes me as generally silly. If O’Hara’s Restaurant wants to serve lox and bagels at its Sunday brunch, that’s fine with me, though I might be a bit suspicious of the quality.
Dem housemembers kneeling with kente cloth stoles
My thought about this example is that it’s a kind of virtue signaling. It’s a way for (D) House members to say hey, we stand with the black community, we have their back.
People talk about virtue signaling as if it’s a dirty word, which I think is a mistake. There’s nothing wrong with making a public gesture in acknowledgement of something worthwhile. The issue is whether the gesture represents something more substantial, or if it’s just a gesture.
Dem housemembers kneeling with kente cloth stoles
My thought about this example is that it’s a kind of virtue signaling. It’s a way for (D) House members to say hey, we stand with the black community, we have their back.
People talk about virtue signaling as if it’s a dirty word, which I think is a mistake. There’s nothing wrong with making a public gesture in acknowledgement of something worthwhile. The issue is whether the gesture represents something more substantial, or if it’s just a gesture.
Second level of cultural appropriation – it’s insulting to turn someone else’s identity into a fun costume or a caricatured mascot, especially one that trades on some essentialized notion of race. Call this the Disney level.
nous, obviously I fully agree with this. Where it gets so complicated is e.g. when I was something of a hippy, in my twenties, I often used to wear antique embroidered long bedouin dresses from the ME. There was no one living to recompense, apart from the antique dealers from whom I bought them, and I wore them (and might even still wear them to the right kind of occasion) because I thought they were beautiful, and they suited me. But what a modern, woke young Palestinian might think of this is a concern, and might stop me.
Again, I agree with russell @09.47. I thought the kente stoles were a gesture of respect.
Second level of cultural appropriation – it’s insulting to turn someone else’s identity into a fun costume or a caricatured mascot, especially one that trades on some essentialized notion of race. Call this the Disney level.
nous, obviously I fully agree with this. Where it gets so complicated is e.g. when I was something of a hippy, in my twenties, I often used to wear antique embroidered long bedouin dresses from the ME. There was no one living to recompense, apart from the antique dealers from whom I bought them, and I wore them (and might even still wear them to the right kind of occasion) because I thought they were beautiful, and they suited me. But what a modern, woke young Palestinian might think of this is a concern, and might stop me.
Again, I agree with russell @09.47. I thought the kente stoles were a gesture of respect.
Better kneeling in a culturally misappropriated kente cloth stole for some earnest virtue signaling then forming a perimeter of heavily armed, Buchanan locked and loaded, camo-ed right wingers virtue signaling that they are going to murder us, so help them GOD their culturally appropriated Jewish Messiah who looks like a blonde Jeffrey Hunter.
I can live through silliness the year round.
Not so much gunfire.
Better kneeling in a culturally misappropriated kente cloth stole for some earnest virtue signaling then forming a perimeter of heavily armed, Buchanan locked and loaded, camo-ed right wingers virtue signaling that they are going to murder us, so help them GOD their culturally appropriated Jewish Messiah who looks like a blonde Jeffrey Hunter.
I can live through silliness the year round.
Not so much gunfire.
Again, I agree with russell @09.47. I thought the kente stoles were a gesture of respect.
I agree. The stoles were offered to the participants to be worn as a gesture of respect, and the moment was meant that way.
Again, I agree with russell @09.47. I thought the kente stoles were a gesture of respect.
I agree. The stoles were offered to the participants to be worn as a gesture of respect, and the moment was meant that way.
The stoles were offered to the participants to be worn as a gesture of respect, and the moment was meant that way.
The problem is that, in too many cases, “cultural appropriation” is entirely subjective. If not too damn entirely subjective. And, unfortunately, with the SJW twitter mobs in full force–not just in college anymore–what seems perfectly fine to most people won’t pass muster with the eternally offended “spokespeople for all oppressed peoples.”
The WaPo got called out for making a mountain out of a molehill in the last day or two. Cancel Culture is a thing and it’s awful. Indefensible.
I’m old, near retirement, so fear of giving PC offense doesn’t play a role in my social calculus. Texas is a multi-racial society with the two major races being white and Mexican-descent. It is common for white Texans to borrow from the Spanish language. I do it all the time. No one who isn’t a full-on idiot thinks anything of it.
In a similar vein, my wife bought a Chinese coat/top of some kind in China Town in San Francisco–sold to her at a Chinese owned and operated clothing store. I wonder how long stores like that will remain in business if only Chinese are permitted to wear that style? Seems stupidly and ignorantly self-defeating to me.
Obviously, using a cultural or ethnic feature to belittle is wrong, but what about gray areas? Why the presumption–selectively applied, see R Northram et al–of mal intent?
So, for me, like most of the other SJW/Woke devices for short-cutting substantive discussion or casting out (cancelling) the heretics, “cultural appropriation” is 99% BS.
The stoles were offered to the participants to be worn as a gesture of respect, and the moment was meant that way.
The problem is that, in too many cases, “cultural appropriation” is entirely subjective. If not too damn entirely subjective. And, unfortunately, with the SJW twitter mobs in full force–not just in college anymore–what seems perfectly fine to most people won’t pass muster with the eternally offended “spokespeople for all oppressed peoples.”
The WaPo got called out for making a mountain out of a molehill in the last day or two. Cancel Culture is a thing and it’s awful. Indefensible.
I’m old, near retirement, so fear of giving PC offense doesn’t play a role in my social calculus. Texas is a multi-racial society with the two major races being white and Mexican-descent. It is common for white Texans to borrow from the Spanish language. I do it all the time. No one who isn’t a full-on idiot thinks anything of it.
In a similar vein, my wife bought a Chinese coat/top of some kind in China Town in San Francisco–sold to her at a Chinese owned and operated clothing store. I wonder how long stores like that will remain in business if only Chinese are permitted to wear that style? Seems stupidly and ignorantly self-defeating to me.
Obviously, using a cultural or ethnic feature to belittle is wrong, but what about gray areas? Why the presumption–selectively applied, see R Northram et al–of mal intent?
So, for me, like most of the other SJW/Woke devices for short-cutting substantive discussion or casting out (cancelling) the heretics, “cultural appropriation” is 99% BS.
Cancel Culture is a thing and it’s awful. Indefensible.
it’s as old as humanity. ask Hester Prynne.
shunning isn’t something some “SJW” came up with in order to torment the welcoming, non-judgemental “conservatives” of the US.
Cancel Culture is a thing and it’s awful. Indefensible.
it’s as old as humanity. ask Hester Prynne.
shunning isn’t something some “SJW” came up with in order to torment the welcoming, non-judgemental “conservatives” of the US.
For example, people who popularize a genre that doesn’t “belong” to them can actually assist people who do more legitimately “own” it make money from it.
This reminds me of a text I got from a friend a couple weeks ago about how astounded he was over the long list of legendary blues musicians Steve Winwood had played gigs with while still a teenager. It gets to a couple of things.
Even the top blues artist at that time couldn’t afford to haul a band around with them while traveling to play live shows, so some local teenager (albeit an enormously talented one in Winwood’s case) would be among the local musicians enlisted for a given show. But, later, these largely-forgotten blues artists would enjoy a resurgence from the appropriation of their music by English rockers.
They didn’t make the money bands like, say, The Animals did. But they made more than they otherwise would have were it not for the popularity of the overtly blues-based rock coming out of Britain in the 60s.
The thing for me is that, though there was some “theft” to varying degrees from black musicians by white musicians, there was most definitely a genuine love and respect for the music among the band who took it up and put their own spin on it. They loved it so much that they couldn’t not play it.
For example, people who popularize a genre that doesn’t “belong” to them can actually assist people who do more legitimately “own” it make money from it.
This reminds me of a text I got from a friend a couple weeks ago about how astounded he was over the long list of legendary blues musicians Steve Winwood had played gigs with while still a teenager. It gets to a couple of things.
Even the top blues artist at that time couldn’t afford to haul a band around with them while traveling to play live shows, so some local teenager (albeit an enormously talented one in Winwood’s case) would be among the local musicians enlisted for a given show. But, later, these largely-forgotten blues artists would enjoy a resurgence from the appropriation of their music by English rockers.
They didn’t make the money bands like, say, The Animals did. But they made more than they otherwise would have were it not for the popularity of the overtly blues-based rock coming out of Britain in the 60s.
The thing for me is that, though there was some “theft” to varying degrees from black musicians by white musicians, there was most definitely a genuine love and respect for the music among the band who took it up and put their own spin on it. They loved it so much that they couldn’t not play it.
WRT Cancel Culture – I know that media heads on the right get seriously worked up over this, but I don’t see how their rage over it is any different than their insistence on not baking a cake or seeing two humans of phenotypes on the proscribed list kissing in public.
The whole story of civil rights is the breaking down of one big ass cancel culture that still insists on having its way and is willing to suppress voters and stack the judiciary in order to do that.
The media heads fear and rage because they are losing the privilege that allowed their cancel culture to work invisibly.
WRT Cancel Culture – I know that media heads on the right get seriously worked up over this, but I don’t see how their rage over it is any different than their insistence on not baking a cake or seeing two humans of phenotypes on the proscribed list kissing in public.
The whole story of civil rights is the breaking down of one big ass cancel culture that still insists on having its way and is willing to suppress voters and stack the judiciary in order to do that.
The media heads fear and rage because they are losing the privilege that allowed their cancel culture to work invisibly.
Pre-coffee first paragraph. Clearer me: their culture is just as much a cancel culture.
Pre-coffee first paragraph. Clearer me: their culture is just as much a cancel culture.
it’s as old as humanity. ask Hester Prynne.
shunning isn’t something some “SJW” came up with in order to torment the welcoming, non-judgemental “conservatives” of the US.
Compelling and well thought-out, as usual. I agree with it, sort of. I and other unregenerate’s have noted the quasi-religious nature of the Woke left. Reviving 17th century religious bigotry practices is entirely in line with the genre. The Woke movement is nothing new in form, if not substance. Shunning, compelled public groveling, loss of employment, etc for non-believers and sinners is the new–or eternal–normal.
Soon, it won’t be enough to avoid saying or doing the wrong thing. Before too long, we will be called upon to publicly witness to the Woke Intersectionalist left’s various totems.
Some other time-honored customs that strengthen your argument: slavery was once a universal practice, ditto women as chattel, forced marriage and states that were the polar opposite of a constitutionally established democracy with courts, a free market, individual rights protected from state capriciousness, etc.
So, yes, Cancel Culture has deep, timeless roots and, given its proven effectiveness, it is no wonder that it is embraced by the mob. And tolerated by the mob’s complicit enablers. Until, of course, they come for you or someone you care about.
it’s as old as humanity. ask Hester Prynne.
shunning isn’t something some “SJW” came up with in order to torment the welcoming, non-judgemental “conservatives” of the US.
Compelling and well thought-out, as usual. I agree with it, sort of. I and other unregenerate’s have noted the quasi-religious nature of the Woke left. Reviving 17th century religious bigotry practices is entirely in line with the genre. The Woke movement is nothing new in form, if not substance. Shunning, compelled public groveling, loss of employment, etc for non-believers and sinners is the new–or eternal–normal.
Soon, it won’t be enough to avoid saying or doing the wrong thing. Before too long, we will be called upon to publicly witness to the Woke Intersectionalist left’s various totems.
Some other time-honored customs that strengthen your argument: slavery was once a universal practice, ditto women as chattel, forced marriage and states that were the polar opposite of a constitutionally established democracy with courts, a free market, individual rights protected from state capriciousness, etc.
So, yes, Cancel Culture has deep, timeless roots and, given its proven effectiveness, it is no wonder that it is embraced by the mob. And tolerated by the mob’s complicit enablers. Until, of course, they come for you or someone you care about.
A rather curious case I remember is white Europeans complaining about blacks (in the colonies) adopting European clothing in the early 20th century (still present in the years after WW1). The German term was ‘Hosenneger’ (trousers negro). The language used had some similarity with the cultural appropriation discussion of to-day. The alternative presented as appropriate was not the loincloth-wearing primitive from the jungle but the educated black (man) wearing traditional African clothing (both for practical reasons [climate]and because it was simply more fitting [from the European POV]).
lj may be in a better position to tell, if the same was true about Japanese people adopting Western clothing.
A rather curious case I remember is white Europeans complaining about blacks (in the colonies) adopting European clothing in the early 20th century (still present in the years after WW1). The German term was ‘Hosenneger’ (trousers negro). The language used had some similarity with the cultural appropriation discussion of to-day. The alternative presented as appropriate was not the loincloth-wearing primitive from the jungle but the educated black (man) wearing traditional African clothing (both for practical reasons [climate]and because it was simply more fitting [from the European POV]).
lj may be in a better position to tell, if the same was true about Japanese people adopting Western clothing.
Pre-coffee first paragraph. Clearer me: their culture is just as much a cancel culture
Sure it is. Not agreeing that’s its fine for the state to force someone to bake a cake for an event that has, for that person, deep religious significance is just like publicly pillorying someone who wore blackface twenty years ago and causing that .
Show me the persistent right wing twitter mobs and their results. Show me the right wing campus movements that deny others their speakers and hound non-conforming students and faculty.
Pre-coffee first paragraph. Clearer me: their culture is just as much a cancel culture
Sure it is. Not agreeing that’s its fine for the state to force someone to bake a cake for an event that has, for that person, deep religious significance is just like publicly pillorying someone who wore blackface twenty years ago and causing that .
Show me the persistent right wing twitter mobs and their results. Show me the right wing campus movements that deny others their speakers and hound non-conforming students and faculty.
So, yes,
CancelPrivilege Culture has deep, timeless roots and, given its proven effectiveness, it is no wonder that it is embraced by the mob. And tolerated by the mob’s complicit enablers. Until, of course, they come for you or someone you care about.McKinney,
If I agree with your original, are you willing to allow that maybe it’s also true as amended?
–TP
So, yes,
CancelPrivilege Culture has deep, timeless roots and, given its proven effectiveness, it is no wonder that it is embraced by the mob. And tolerated by the mob’s complicit enablers. Until, of course, they come for you or someone you care about.McKinney,
If I agree with your original, are you willing to allow that maybe it’s also true as amended?
–TP
The Woke movement is nothing new in form, if not substance.
it’s humans being human.
you should be more afraid of the clever marketing that’s got you all wound up about it.
The Woke movement is nothing new in form, if not substance.
it’s humans being human.
you should be more afraid of the clever marketing that’s got you all wound up about it.
If I agree with your original, are you willing to allow that maybe it’s also true as amended?
“Privilege” is a much more subjective, contextual concept than cancelling people. That said, no one can credibly argue that being white, male, heterosexual isn’t an advantage in Europe, the US and Canada. How much and under what circumstances varies and, as a whole, it is less of an advantage today than 10 or 20 years ago (and going back further and further, the advantage becomes more and more pronounced).
If I agree with your original, are you willing to allow that maybe it’s also true as amended?
“Privilege” is a much more subjective, contextual concept than cancelling people. That said, no one can credibly argue that being white, male, heterosexual isn’t an advantage in Europe, the US and Canada. How much and under what circumstances varies and, as a whole, it is less of an advantage today than 10 or 20 years ago (and going back further and further, the advantage becomes more and more pronounced).
it’s humans being human.
you should be more afraid of the clever marketing that’s got you all wound up about it.
Sure–I’m being manipulated but you get it.
it’s humans being human.
you should be more afraid of the clever marketing that’s got you all wound up about it.
Sure–I’m being manipulated but you get it.
Show me the persistent right wing twitter mobs and their results. Show me the right wing campus movements that deny others their speakers and hound non-conforming students and faculty.
Does this kind of thing count?
Show me the persistent right wing twitter mobs and their results. Show me the right wing campus movements that deny others their speakers and hound non-conforming students and faculty.
Does this kind of thing count?
The thing for me is that, though there was some “theft” to varying degrees from black musicians by white musicians, there was most definitely a genuine love and respect for the music among the band who took it up and put their own spin on it. They loved it so much that they couldn’t not play it.
^^^^ this right here ^^^^
nobody owns culture. the legitimacy of cultural borrowing comes down, IMO, to exactly what hairshirt describes here.
the reason I called out Carole Kaye way way upthread is that the ineffable quality that gets described as “blackness” in popular America (and other) music is not a function of skin color, but of sensibility.
the swampers are all white guys, for instance.
does it swing, is it funky, does it have soul, is it greasy, does it make you feel like we just all had church. all refer to that sensibility. if you can pin it down more than that, there is a graduate degree in musicology in it for you.
it’s obvious, and impossible to describe.
that sensibility is rooted in the experience of black people – people originally from Africa – as they lived in this country. but the sensibility is something that anyone can acquire.
mostly people acquire it by loving it and having it rub off on them.
Steve Winwood, as far as I’m concerned, is one guy who is a black as he wants to be.
as far as “cancel culture”, I figure some things deserve to be shamed. it’s not something I participate in, but I’m also not all that upset by it.
there are much, much bigger fish to fry.
The thing for me is that, though there was some “theft” to varying degrees from black musicians by white musicians, there was most definitely a genuine love and respect for the music among the band who took it up and put their own spin on it. They loved it so much that they couldn’t not play it.
^^^^ this right here ^^^^
nobody owns culture. the legitimacy of cultural borrowing comes down, IMO, to exactly what hairshirt describes here.
the reason I called out Carole Kaye way way upthread is that the ineffable quality that gets described as “blackness” in popular America (and other) music is not a function of skin color, but of sensibility.
the swampers are all white guys, for instance.
does it swing, is it funky, does it have soul, is it greasy, does it make you feel like we just all had church. all refer to that sensibility. if you can pin it down more than that, there is a graduate degree in musicology in it for you.
it’s obvious, and impossible to describe.
that sensibility is rooted in the experience of black people – people originally from Africa – as they lived in this country. but the sensibility is something that anyone can acquire.
mostly people acquire it by loving it and having it rub off on them.
Steve Winwood, as far as I’m concerned, is one guy who is a black as he wants to be.
as far as “cancel culture”, I figure some things deserve to be shamed. it’s not something I participate in, but I’m also not all that upset by it.
there are much, much bigger fish to fry.
you are being manipulated.
shunning isn’t new. it’s isn’t exclusive to the left. it isn’t something the left has revived. what’s new is the term “Cancel Culture” and the way it’s being used as the latest bogeyman on the right.
you are being manipulated.
shunning isn’t new. it’s isn’t exclusive to the left. it isn’t something the left has revived. what’s new is the term “Cancel Culture” and the way it’s being used as the latest bogeyman on the right.
ask Jeff Sessions or Steve Bannon if there’s a Cancel Culture on the right.
ask the dozens of his bowing and scraping Congressional toadies why they’re afraid of Trump and his deputies excommunicating them from the GOP. don’t call it “cancelling”, though – that word is reserved for the evil left.
ask Jeff Sessions or Steve Bannon if there’s a Cancel Culture on the right.
ask the dozens of his bowing and scraping Congressional toadies why they’re afraid of Trump and his deputies excommunicating them from the GOP. don’t call it “cancelling”, though – that word is reserved for the evil left.
Shorter cleek, bullying by the left is fine.
Shorter cleek, bullying by the left is fine.
shorter Marty: derp
shorter Marty: derp
The WaPo got called out for making a mountain out of a molehill in the last day or two.
That was pretty despicable. Public humiliation of a private person for something they did two years ago at a Washington Post event.
“It’s astonishing that this article—a story about a long-ago Halloween party attended by the Post‘s own staff and principally involving three private persons—made it to print, and everyone involved in its publication should be deeply ashamed. That includes Prince and Gruber, but also Fisher and Trent, and their editors. As far as cancel culture goes, this is a new and depressing low point.”
The Washington Post‘s Halloween Costume Hit Job Is a New Low for Cancel Culture: There was absolutely no reason to run this.
The WaPo got called out for making a mountain out of a molehill in the last day or two.
That was pretty despicable. Public humiliation of a private person for something they did two years ago at a Washington Post event.
“It’s astonishing that this article—a story about a long-ago Halloween party attended by the Post‘s own staff and principally involving three private persons—made it to print, and everyone involved in its publication should be deeply ashamed. That includes Prince and Gruber, but also Fisher and Trent, and their editors. As far as cancel culture goes, this is a new and depressing low point.”
The Washington Post‘s Halloween Costume Hit Job Is a New Low for Cancel Culture: There was absolutely no reason to run this.
ask Jeff Sessions or Steve Bannon if there’s a Cancel Culture on the right.
ask the dozens of his bowing and scraping Congressional toadies why they’re afraid of Trump and his deputies excommunicating them from the GOP. don’t call it “cancelling”, though – that word is reserved for the evil left.
This is actually somewhat of a point. Compelled group-think is a thing. However, ‘cancel culture’ is much more of a thing. Among other things, the right wing stuff involves people who stuck their oar in the water. Cancel culture goes after anyone for sinning against the Woke left’s rules, if you can call them that. As Marty says, it’s ok when it’s on the left.
Until they start coming for you.
ask Jeff Sessions or Steve Bannon if there’s a Cancel Culture on the right.
ask the dozens of his bowing and scraping Congressional toadies why they’re afraid of Trump and his deputies excommunicating them from the GOP. don’t call it “cancelling”, though – that word is reserved for the evil left.
This is actually somewhat of a point. Compelled group-think is a thing. However, ‘cancel culture’ is much more of a thing. Among other things, the right wing stuff involves people who stuck their oar in the water. Cancel culture goes after anyone for sinning against the Woke left’s rules, if you can call them that. As Marty says, it’s ok when it’s on the left.
Until they start coming for you.
That was pretty despicable. Public humiliation of a private person for something they did two years ago at a Washington Post event.
She lost her job. So did some guy in San Diego who was photographed anonymously and had his photo sent to his employer, allegedly because his hand was signaling some kind of white supremacist thing.
Mob justice. It doesn’t go away when the supposed adults ignore the behavior.
That was pretty despicable. Public humiliation of a private person for something they did two years ago at a Washington Post event.
She lost her job. So did some guy in San Diego who was photographed anonymously and had his photo sent to his employer, allegedly because his hand was signaling some kind of white supremacist thing.
Mob justice. It doesn’t go away when the supposed adults ignore the behavior.
Cancel culture goes after anyone for sinning against the Woke left’s rules, if you can call them that
of course it does. because that’s how it’s been defined for you. it doesn’t include when conservatives do the same thing, because that wouldn’t make for good rabble rousing.
As Marty says, it’s ok when it’s on the left.
Marty invents a position for me to hold and you agree. so compelling, so well-thought out of you both.
Cancel culture goes after anyone for sinning against the Woke left’s rules, if you can call them that
of course it does. because that’s how it’s been defined for you. it doesn’t include when conservatives do the same thing, because that wouldn’t make for good rabble rousing.
As Marty says, it’s ok when it’s on the left.
Marty invents a position for me to hold and you agree. so compelling, so well-thought out of you both.
We can probably discuss specific instances where someone was “cancelled” and whether it was justified. There are probably some instances most of us would agree on – be they justified instances or not-justified instances.
The biggest problem for me is when there is no room for learning the lesson, sincere apology, and making appropriate amends. People should be allowed to be better than they once were. In fact, that should be everyone’s goal.
The point that unjustified “cancellations” aren’t exclusive to “the left” (TM) isn’t to suggest that they’re okay. It’s pointing out how some people selectively notice such things.
We can probably discuss specific instances where someone was “cancelled” and whether it was justified. There are probably some instances most of us would agree on – be they justified instances or not-justified instances.
The biggest problem for me is when there is no room for learning the lesson, sincere apology, and making appropriate amends. People should be allowed to be better than they once were. In fact, that should be everyone’s goal.
The point that unjustified “cancellations” aren’t exclusive to “the left” (TM) isn’t to suggest that they’re okay. It’s pointing out how some people selectively notice such things.
We can probably discuss specific instances where someone was “cancelled” and whether it was justified.
The premise is wrong. Cancellation is a fact-free, justice free, mob action that has real world consequences. That some ‘group’ can define acceptable limits on thought and speech and get someone fired because of imputed impure thoughts is the polar opposite of a civil society based on the rule of law. Who the F conferred on anyone–and the Woke left in particular–the authority to create new rules of speech and thought and to enforce those rules through mob action.
Of course the right is more aware of the left’s shortcomings. The left doesn’t police itself anymore than the right polices itself. That doesn’t mean that the left’s cancel culture isn’t the much larger, unjust threat to people who don’t agree with the Woke agenda.
The Woke cancelers are not shy about eating their own. They demand total submission. Using cultural appropriation as a bully stick to beat the unwary or uninitiated is just one example of how awful they are and why they are sui generis in a modern, supposedly liberal society.
We can probably discuss specific instances where someone was “cancelled” and whether it was justified.
The premise is wrong. Cancellation is a fact-free, justice free, mob action that has real world consequences. That some ‘group’ can define acceptable limits on thought and speech and get someone fired because of imputed impure thoughts is the polar opposite of a civil society based on the rule of law. Who the F conferred on anyone–and the Woke left in particular–the authority to create new rules of speech and thought and to enforce those rules through mob action.
Of course the right is more aware of the left’s shortcomings. The left doesn’t police itself anymore than the right polices itself. That doesn’t mean that the left’s cancel culture isn’t the much larger, unjust threat to people who don’t agree with the Woke agenda.
The Woke cancelers are not shy about eating their own. They demand total submission. Using cultural appropriation as a bully stick to beat the unwary or uninitiated is just one example of how awful they are and why they are sui generis in a modern, supposedly liberal society.
Most of the American fire-at-will tradition seems like cancel culture to me.
For example, folks canceled for attempting to organize unions.
The two examples cited above should not have been fired from their jobs, IMO.
Apologies from them, after review, would suffice.
Is there a reason why, McKinney, besides good social taste on the part of the individual employees, none of the white employees of law firms which you lead show up at parties, even of the office variety, in black face, or for brandishing hand signals of various types at fellow employees?
Surely, there would be some kind of expected consequences for them governing such behavior.
I could make a case if I felt like it that online dating services are positively orgiastic examples of mass cancel culture.
Most of what goes on there is mass cancellation, just like in judgmental American real life.
All reality entertainment shows have as their hook cancellation culture.
In fact, that’s the sadistic fun of that crap for Americans, watching the pathetic losers on “The Apprentice” trundle into the elevator, their wheeled luggage in tow, and on to the sidewalk for the humiliating limo ride (they should make them hitch hike, shouldn’t they?) to the airport after the biggest sadistic loser in the world fires them for failing at some ridiculous “business” task and then America elects the head sadist to wreck the country and cancel an imaginary deep state.
The biggest test of cancellation culture will be the November elections in which we wait with baited breath to learn whether an abject racist, corrupt thug gets canceled for being what he is.
If he is re-elected, besides knowing that the election was stolen, we’ll know that cancellation culture is not working to its full potential.
Most of the American fire-at-will tradition seems like cancel culture to me.
For example, folks canceled for attempting to organize unions.
The two examples cited above should not have been fired from their jobs, IMO.
Apologies from them, after review, would suffice.
Is there a reason why, McKinney, besides good social taste on the part of the individual employees, none of the white employees of law firms which you lead show up at parties, even of the office variety, in black face, or for brandishing hand signals of various types at fellow employees?
Surely, there would be some kind of expected consequences for them governing such behavior.
I could make a case if I felt like it that online dating services are positively orgiastic examples of mass cancel culture.
Most of what goes on there is mass cancellation, just like in judgmental American real life.
All reality entertainment shows have as their hook cancellation culture.
In fact, that’s the sadistic fun of that crap for Americans, watching the pathetic losers on “The Apprentice” trundle into the elevator, their wheeled luggage in tow, and on to the sidewalk for the humiliating limo ride (they should make them hitch hike, shouldn’t they?) to the airport after the biggest sadistic loser in the world fires them for failing at some ridiculous “business” task and then America elects the head sadist to wreck the country and cancel an imaginary deep state.
The biggest test of cancellation culture will be the November elections in which we wait with baited breath to learn whether an abject racist, corrupt thug gets canceled for being what he is.
If he is re-elected, besides knowing that the election was stolen, we’ll know that cancellation culture is not working to its full potential.
The left doesn’t police itself anymore than the right polices itself.
then go police yourself and quit pretending a handful of overzealous Twitter dipshits are either representative of the left in general or are going to destroy our society,
The left doesn’t police itself anymore than the right polices itself.
then go police yourself and quit pretending a handful of overzealous Twitter dipshits are either representative of the left in general or are going to destroy our society,
“Who the F conferred on anyone–and the Woke left in particular–the authority to create new rules of speech and thought and to enforce those rules through mob action?”
Lester Maddox?
Mel Gibson?
“Who the F conferred on anyone–and the Woke left in particular–the authority to create new rules of speech and thought and to enforce those rules through mob action?”
Lester Maddox?
Mel Gibson?
i really like this seething hatred of “the woke”.
nothing could be more 2020 “conservative” than a sweeping prejudicial hatred of people who pay attention to social racial injustices.
i really like this seething hatred of “the woke”.
nothing could be more 2020 “conservative” than a sweeping prejudicial hatred of people who pay attention to social racial injustices.
happy Juneteenth, Party Of Lincoln
happy Juneteenth, Party Of Lincoln
Surely, there would be some kind of expected consequences for them governing such behavior.
With respect, you recast ‘cancel culture’–which we all see everyday and know what it is–as just another aspect of what “people do.” It isn’t. Cancel culture is a mob of anonymous, unaccountable people charging and convicting a person in a swarm of tweets that leaves the accused alone and usually fired. It is sui generis. The employer is threatened. It is so grossly different and over the top that I find it astounding that so many here are either silent or, as you are, somewhat willing to concede an excess here or there but generally ok with peeps being called out IF THEY APOLOGIZE APPROPRIATELY–who gets to be that “someone” and determine if the penance is sufficient and sincere and whatnot?
There is no limit, no rules, no boundaries that apply to these vigilantes. They single out and vilify individuals for what can only be seen as thought crimes. In older times, instead of twitter, they used rope. It is beyond disgusting.
To compare the anonymity of a twitter mob descending on a defenseless individual and compelling that person to grovel and possibly causing that person his/her job to someone like me addressing someone on my payroll for an act that I can observe or at least verify–all of which happens in private, not to put too fine a point on it–is really quite odd.
Surely, there would be some kind of expected consequences for them governing such behavior.
With respect, you recast ‘cancel culture’–which we all see everyday and know what it is–as just another aspect of what “people do.” It isn’t. Cancel culture is a mob of anonymous, unaccountable people charging and convicting a person in a swarm of tweets that leaves the accused alone and usually fired. It is sui generis. The employer is threatened. It is so grossly different and over the top that I find it astounding that so many here are either silent or, as you are, somewhat willing to concede an excess here or there but generally ok with peeps being called out IF THEY APOLOGIZE APPROPRIATELY–who gets to be that “someone” and determine if the penance is sufficient and sincere and whatnot?
There is no limit, no rules, no boundaries that apply to these vigilantes. They single out and vilify individuals for what can only be seen as thought crimes. In older times, instead of twitter, they used rope. It is beyond disgusting.
To compare the anonymity of a twitter mob descending on a defenseless individual and compelling that person to grovel and possibly causing that person his/her job to someone like me addressing someone on my payroll for an act that I can observe or at least verify–all of which happens in private, not to put too fine a point on it–is really quite odd.
nothing could be more 2020 “conservative” than a sweeping prejudicial hatred of people who pay attention to social racial injustices.
Classic. We can’t be wrong because we are obviously right, hence our authority to judge everyone else. White Fragility!
nothing could be more 2020 “conservative” than a sweeping prejudicial hatred of people who pay attention to social racial injustices.
Classic. We can’t be wrong because we are obviously right, hence our authority to judge everyone else. White Fragility!
The Woke cancelers are not shy about eating their own.
The narcissism of small differences.
The Woke cancelers are not shy about eating their own.
The narcissism of small differences.
sapient – This is a bit complicated. For example, people who popularize a genre that doesn’t “belong” to them can actually assist people who do more legitimately “own” it make money from it.
A clear and specific example of what I would consider as stepping on someone else’s hustle would be the 90s New Age publishing industry and people like Lynn V. Andrews and other Plastic Shaman, which seems very different in kind from young white musicians who embrace black music.
And if you want to get back to black music where there is money (as opposed to jazz), then look at hip hop and rap and Eminem, or 3rd Bass, or Bubba Sparxxx, or the Beastie Boys and then compare them to Vanilla Ice or Fred Durst or other MC Chads.
And as for non-SJW cancel culture of a much more dangerous kind – Gamergate.
sapient – This is a bit complicated. For example, people who popularize a genre that doesn’t “belong” to them can actually assist people who do more legitimately “own” it make money from it.
A clear and specific example of what I would consider as stepping on someone else’s hustle would be the 90s New Age publishing industry and people like Lynn V. Andrews and other Plastic Shaman, which seems very different in kind from young white musicians who embrace black music.
And if you want to get back to black music where there is money (as opposed to jazz), then look at hip hop and rap and Eminem, or 3rd Bass, or Bubba Sparxxx, or the Beastie Boys and then compare them to Vanilla Ice or Fred Durst or other MC Chads.
And as for non-SJW cancel culture of a much more dangerous kind – Gamergate.
And as for non-SJW cancel culture of a much more dangerous kind – Gamergate.
I vaguely recall a post or two here addressing Gamergate and participating in the discussion. My sense of it was there was a group of male losers who had issues with the left leanings of some female game designers and maybe a journalist and executed an extended online attack on these women. I didn’t care for it then, I care even less for it now. That said, Danger’ is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. I’d be interested in your explanation, if you would care to give one, as to why Gamergate is more dangerous than the WaPo article Charles linked to.
Are you ok with cancel culture, nous?
And as for non-SJW cancel culture of a much more dangerous kind – Gamergate.
I vaguely recall a post or two here addressing Gamergate and participating in the discussion. My sense of it was there was a group of male losers who had issues with the left leanings of some female game designers and maybe a journalist and executed an extended online attack on these women. I didn’t care for it then, I care even less for it now. That said, Danger’ is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. I’d be interested in your explanation, if you would care to give one, as to why Gamergate is more dangerous than the WaPo article Charles linked to.
Are you ok with cancel culture, nous?
That some ‘group’ can define acceptable limits on thought and speech and get someone fired because of imputed impure thoughts is the polar opposite of a civil society based on the rule of law. Who the F conferred on anyone–and the Woke left in particular–the authority to create new rules of speech and thought and to enforce those rules through mob action.
You seem to think this is a far more organized “group” than it is. And no one conferred anything. It’s mostly stuff going viral on social media. I’m not sure what you want anyone to do about it. It’s another one of those free-speech things that goes to show that guaranteed free speech isn’t perfect, even if it’s better than state-enforced censorship.
Right-wingers throw around death threats on social media like confetti at a parade when someone says or does something they don’t like, sending people into hiding and seeking state protection. That’s today’s world, I guess. I don’t like it, either, but I’m not pretending it’s something that only exists on the political “other side” from me.
I doubt anyone here is a big participant in twitter mobs, but this is a great place to rant. Knock yourself out. I don’t think it’s going to be the most interesting or enlightening conversation.
That some ‘group’ can define acceptable limits on thought and speech and get someone fired because of imputed impure thoughts is the polar opposite of a civil society based on the rule of law. Who the F conferred on anyone–and the Woke left in particular–the authority to create new rules of speech and thought and to enforce those rules through mob action.
You seem to think this is a far more organized “group” than it is. And no one conferred anything. It’s mostly stuff going viral on social media. I’m not sure what you want anyone to do about it. It’s another one of those free-speech things that goes to show that guaranteed free speech isn’t perfect, even if it’s better than state-enforced censorship.
Right-wingers throw around death threats on social media like confetti at a parade when someone says or does something they don’t like, sending people into hiding and seeking state protection. That’s today’s world, I guess. I don’t like it, either, but I’m not pretending it’s something that only exists on the political “other side” from me.
I doubt anyone here is a big participant in twitter mobs, but this is a great place to rant. Knock yourself out. I don’t think it’s going to be the most interesting or enlightening conversation.
We can’t be wrong because we are obviously right, hence our authority to judge everyone else
irony
We can’t be wrong because we are obviously right, hence our authority to judge everyone else
irony
Cancellation is a fact-free, justice free, mob action that has real world consequences.
Sometimes it is. Not always. Unless you define it that way, in which case your conclusion and your premise are the same thing. If you’re only talking about the most awful instances of someone being called out and having their life negatively affected without justification, then what’s there to talk about?
Cancellation is a fact-free, justice free, mob action that has real world consequences.
Sometimes it is. Not always. Unless you define it that way, in which case your conclusion and your premise are the same thing. If you’re only talking about the most awful instances of someone being called out and having their life negatively affected without justification, then what’s there to talk about?
McTX: With respect, you recast ‘cancel culture’–which we all see everyday and know what it is–as just another aspect of what “people do.” It isn’t.
Speaking only for myself, I had not been “woke” enough until about yesterday to have heard of “cancel culture”, let alone be clear about its definition. McKinney helpfully defines it for me:
Cancellation is a fact-free, justice free, mob action that has real world consequences.
I’m pro-fact and pro-justice, I think. So is McKinney, apparently. As for “mob action”, well, I suppose if a bunch of people tweet something, McKinney is entitled to call them a “mob” and their tweets “action”. That’s his privilege.
Still, I’d be more inclined to call Tiki-torch-carrying racists marching in unison a “mob”. It’s a matter of taste.
–TP
McTX: With respect, you recast ‘cancel culture’–which we all see everyday and know what it is–as just another aspect of what “people do.” It isn’t.
Speaking only for myself, I had not been “woke” enough until about yesterday to have heard of “cancel culture”, let alone be clear about its definition. McKinney helpfully defines it for me:
Cancellation is a fact-free, justice free, mob action that has real world consequences.
I’m pro-fact and pro-justice, I think. So is McKinney, apparently. As for “mob action”, well, I suppose if a bunch of people tweet something, McKinney is entitled to call them a “mob” and their tweets “action”. That’s his privilege.
Still, I’d be more inclined to call Tiki-torch-carrying racists marching in unison a “mob”. It’s a matter of taste.
–TP
‘cancel culture’–which we all see everyday and know what it is
I don’t mind saying that I don’t know what it is. The term is too vague to have any meaning.
The WaPo article was bullshit. Doxing Nazis, by which I mean not people with nasty opinions but people engaging in racist violence and mayhem, I have very very little qualms about.
Different things are… different.
Complaints about specific cases seems reasonable. Railing against a ‘culture’ which is defined as ‘some people did some stuff’, less so.
And FWIW, the target of thd Gamergate BS was threatened with rape and murder, had her address published, and had to move to avoid harrassment and risk of physical harm.
Her crime was writing a computer game that was insufficiently violent for the boyo’s taste.
‘cancel culture’–which we all see everyday and know what it is
I don’t mind saying that I don’t know what it is. The term is too vague to have any meaning.
The WaPo article was bullshit. Doxing Nazis, by which I mean not people with nasty opinions but people engaging in racist violence and mayhem, I have very very little qualms about.
Different things are… different.
Complaints about specific cases seems reasonable. Railing against a ‘culture’ which is defined as ‘some people did some stuff’, less so.
And FWIW, the target of thd Gamergate BS was threatened with rape and murder, had her address published, and had to move to avoid harrassment and risk of physical harm.
Her crime was writing a computer game that was insufficiently violent for the boyo’s taste.
I’d say one big problem with the WaPo thing is that it was something published in a major newspaper. Someone in the organization should have had the good judgement not to run the story. It’s an entirely different thing than a twitter mob, where the “blame” can’t be nearly as focused.
I’d say one big problem with the WaPo thing is that it was something published in a major newspaper. Someone in the organization should have had the good judgement not to run the story. It’s an entirely different thing than a twitter mob, where the “blame” can’t be nearly as focused.
McKinney’s characterisation of the dire effects of woke culture, and particularly cancel culture, reminded me irresistibly of the McCarthy hearings, which it seems to me could be characterised as the ne plus ultra of cancel culture. I know McKinney loves to cast us here on ObWi as “the left”, and to inveigh against the horrors of communism, and certainly most here agree with him about communist regimes in the countries that went for it, but it is an astonishing thing how many European countries, including the UK, manage to have legal Communist parties without the dire collapse of civil society and the stability of what I think McKinney himself has called “liberal western democracy”, so it’s quite funny to hear him and Marty characterising this as a phenomenon of the left when the most dramatic possible example of it was executed by the right.
McKinney’s characterisation of the dire effects of woke culture, and particularly cancel culture, reminded me irresistibly of the McCarthy hearings, which it seems to me could be characterised as the ne plus ultra of cancel culture. I know McKinney loves to cast us here on ObWi as “the left”, and to inveigh against the horrors of communism, and certainly most here agree with him about communist regimes in the countries that went for it, but it is an astonishing thing how many European countries, including the UK, manage to have legal Communist parties without the dire collapse of civil society and the stability of what I think McKinney himself has called “liberal western democracy”, so it’s quite funny to hear him and Marty characterising this as a phenomenon of the left when the most dramatic possible example of it was executed by the right.
Plus, what too many here said, particularly hsh, nous and Tony P.
Plus, what too many here said, particularly hsh, nous and Tony P.
the WaPo’s story was dumb enough to make me wonder if it was the result of some interoffice tiff.
the Dixie Chicks are still waiting for an apology.
the WaPo’s story was dumb enough to make me wonder if it was the result of some interoffice tiff.
the Dixie Chicks are still waiting for an apology.
Good point on the Dixie Chicks, cleek, and a lot more recent than McCarthy!
Good point on the Dixie Chicks, cleek, and a lot more recent than McCarthy!
Are you ok with cancel culture, nous?
Are you okay with structural racism McKinneyTexas?
If commenters here want to go all King Canute on these waves of social disapproval rippling out across the Internet, then help yourselves. If, after doing this, commenters want to go after the platforms where these waves happen for stomping on the free expression of their own side of whatever issue made those waves in the first place, then help yourselves.
I called Gamergate assholes more dangerous because they resort to SWATting the people that they disagree with.
As far as the WaPo article goes, I think it was a poor editorial choice. The article itself was not sparing of anyone in particular and none of the people came off particularly well, though I did cringe in sympathy for the woman at the center of it all. What do you want me to do about it? Pressure my university to cancel their institutional subscription? And the Reason article blasting the WaPo article didn’t do anything but try to balance the outrage scales with a side order of libertarian aioli.
Cancel culture is just the levers of capitalism being wielded as they always have been. There are just fewer fences and checkpoints between those levers and your ordinary schmo than there used to be.
Feel free to come after me for appropriating the use of “schmo” here. It’s a meshugga move for a goy like me to pull in a conversation like this.
Are you ok with cancel culture, nous?
Are you okay with structural racism McKinneyTexas?
If commenters here want to go all King Canute on these waves of social disapproval rippling out across the Internet, then help yourselves. If, after doing this, commenters want to go after the platforms where these waves happen for stomping on the free expression of their own side of whatever issue made those waves in the first place, then help yourselves.
I called Gamergate assholes more dangerous because they resort to SWATting the people that they disagree with.
As far as the WaPo article goes, I think it was a poor editorial choice. The article itself was not sparing of anyone in particular and none of the people came off particularly well, though I did cringe in sympathy for the woman at the center of it all. What do you want me to do about it? Pressure my university to cancel their institutional subscription? And the Reason article blasting the WaPo article didn’t do anything but try to balance the outrage scales with a side order of libertarian aioli.
Cancel culture is just the levers of capitalism being wielded as they always have been. There are just fewer fences and checkpoints between those levers and your ordinary schmo than there used to be.
Feel free to come after me for appropriating the use of “schmo” here. It’s a meshugga move for a goy like me to pull in a conversation like this.
nous: LOL. Properly deployed, in my opinion.
nous: LOL. Properly deployed, in my opinion.
ok, so a ‘cancel culture’ story. apologies if this is, like, the ninth time I’ve trotted this one out, but it seems on point. so here ya go.
a friend of mine opened a small cafe two towns over from me. right downtown in the kind of hardscrabble down-at-heels former industrial small city that New England is just chock full of. that, of course, being another whole set of stories for the crying-in-our-beer midwestern rust belt trumpster knuckleheads to ponder, should it ever occur to them to do so, next time they want to bleat about the ‘coastal elites’.
but I digress.
the city has been trying to establish the downtown as a place that people might actually want to visit, my friend’s cafe was part of that overall vibe.
she booked in live music, had vinyl night on Tuesdays when you could bring your favorite vinyl records down and play them for everyone. wine and painting night a couple of times a month, poetry and fiction readings. good Celtic seisun on the weekend. art on the walls. good food, good coffee, wine and beer.
culture. right?
a cool little scene. it was very nice. she made something very cool, out of nothing.
her daughter was the day manager, and completely unrelated to the business, went off on social media about cops being out of control. it was not well received.
word got out that she was associated with the business. the business was cancelled. cops boycotted it, anyone who liked cops boycotted it, anybody who was on the “blue lives matter” side of that particular great cultural divide boycotted it.
my friend went on social media apologizing, fired her daughter, specifically invited cops to come in for breakfast or lunch.
no deal.
my friend lost her business, lost her life savings, lost her condo. at age 50-something, she was starting over, completely, from nothing.
nothing.
my wife and I and a couple of her other friends helped her move out of her condo and helped her get her tiny collection of possessions into storage while she and her teenage youngest kid looked for a place to live.
so yes, ‘cancel culture’ exists, in the sense of people mobbing up on other people in social media and similar and making their lives turn to shit.
but it is not by god anything like a specifically ‘lefty’ thing.
people can be hateful. sucks that that is so, but it is so.
you want to cry a tear, you could cry a tear for my friend. nobody is ‘championing her cause’, nobody other than a group of friends is stepping up to get her back and win her any kind of ‘justice’.
not that she wants any of that, she landed on her feet eventually, got a pretty-ok job working for another down-at-heels-hardscrabble-former-industrial New England city, doing outreach for disabled and otherwise impaired people. which she is really good at, enjoys, and is grateful for.
it was just a hell of a left turn, and it was a freaking shame for the city. most of the people who took it upon themselves to punish her for her kid’s loud-mouthing live in that city, and now they have no nice groovy little cafe downtown.
there are assholes everywhere. it’s not a ‘culture’, it’s just people being dicks.
ok, so a ‘cancel culture’ story. apologies if this is, like, the ninth time I’ve trotted this one out, but it seems on point. so here ya go.
a friend of mine opened a small cafe two towns over from me. right downtown in the kind of hardscrabble down-at-heels former industrial small city that New England is just chock full of. that, of course, being another whole set of stories for the crying-in-our-beer midwestern rust belt trumpster knuckleheads to ponder, should it ever occur to them to do so, next time they want to bleat about the ‘coastal elites’.
but I digress.
the city has been trying to establish the downtown as a place that people might actually want to visit, my friend’s cafe was part of that overall vibe.
she booked in live music, had vinyl night on Tuesdays when you could bring your favorite vinyl records down and play them for everyone. wine and painting night a couple of times a month, poetry and fiction readings. good Celtic seisun on the weekend. art on the walls. good food, good coffee, wine and beer.
culture. right?
a cool little scene. it was very nice. she made something very cool, out of nothing.
her daughter was the day manager, and completely unrelated to the business, went off on social media about cops being out of control. it was not well received.
word got out that she was associated with the business. the business was cancelled. cops boycotted it, anyone who liked cops boycotted it, anybody who was on the “blue lives matter” side of that particular great cultural divide boycotted it.
my friend went on social media apologizing, fired her daughter, specifically invited cops to come in for breakfast or lunch.
no deal.
my friend lost her business, lost her life savings, lost her condo. at age 50-something, she was starting over, completely, from nothing.
nothing.
my wife and I and a couple of her other friends helped her move out of her condo and helped her get her tiny collection of possessions into storage while she and her teenage youngest kid looked for a place to live.
so yes, ‘cancel culture’ exists, in the sense of people mobbing up on other people in social media and similar and making their lives turn to shit.
but it is not by god anything like a specifically ‘lefty’ thing.
people can be hateful. sucks that that is so, but it is so.
you want to cry a tear, you could cry a tear for my friend. nobody is ‘championing her cause’, nobody other than a group of friends is stepping up to get her back and win her any kind of ‘justice’.
not that she wants any of that, she landed on her feet eventually, got a pretty-ok job working for another down-at-heels-hardscrabble-former-industrial New England city, doing outreach for disabled and otherwise impaired people. which she is really good at, enjoys, and is grateful for.
it was just a hell of a left turn, and it was a freaking shame for the city. most of the people who took it upon themselves to punish her for her kid’s loud-mouthing live in that city, and now they have no nice groovy little cafe downtown.
there are assholes everywhere. it’s not a ‘culture’, it’s just people being dicks.
Twitter, Facebook and other social media organs amplify the mob’s cytokine storm of cancellation culture.
It’s good “business”. Remember that.
We know too of teens who have committed suicide because of concerted mob behavior against them on social media.
The now completely discredited “lamestream” media (now there’s some fake mob hysteria) seems to be stooping to the mob’s demands by allowing mobs of one kind or another to turn their comment sections on the web into gang cesspools.
Local broadcast news “invites” the mob to give their opinions. C-Span long ago tried to segregate the mob into right and left callers and what, moderate callers.
Result: three mobs
Wade into any business/stock market comment section at CNBC, MSN Money, Yahoo Finance, and Seeking Alpha, if you can stand to have your dick measured.
It seems to me that the phenomenon of social media has perverted the long-understood norms of First Amendment rights.
Somewhere along the line, probably when he declared in his dorm room there was no such thing as privacy, Mark Zuckerberg should have had his face punched in, probably by a roommate during one of their bullsh*t sessions.
But instead, his crap because a business plan to be monetized and the mob converted into “consumers”, whatever they are, and once that happens in America, it’s too late to stop evil.
Same with the business plans of Rush Limbaugh and dozens of white supremacist “entertainers”, including Rupert Murdoch’s in house mobs of surly blondes and male airheads.
Their mobs are big time moneymakers, but the thing about grifting mobsters on the right, they are canny enough to not only form the mob, they actually fleece the mob as they wreak havoc.
Black Lives Matter doesn’t seem to be getting rich off their mobs.
My point about private employers, besides that private judgement can be unjust regarding firings even when it is not sparked by a “mob”, is that is was in fact the employers who fired the two individuals mentioned above, not the Mob.
We need either some braver souls like Atticus Finch to sweet talk Mobs to break it up and go home for the night, or better, some private employers who are willing to stand up and tell the Mobs to go f*ck themselves.
Either that or remove Donald Trump’s opposable thumbs, as a good example from on high.
That all said, besides McCarthy, William Randolph Hearst was an expert at assembling mobs to get us into war, as was George W. Bush (Colin Powell, I’m looking at you), and Obamacare was subject to threatened mob violence and discord.
A mob of Republican notables descended on the vote tallying offices of Broward County in 2000. Many of those same went on to legalize corporate mob rule by the very rich in our governance with the Citizens United ruling.
They call themselves an “interest group” of corporate individuals, but they’ve lit afire American politics and governance and broke political norms like so many storefront windows.
A mob of armed right wing self-proclaimed tax cheats descended on a wildlife preserve in Oregon not long ago.
I don’t recall our good conservatives and one libertarian here dropping everything and rushing over here to condemn that crap.
I don’t know, maybe they thought we had it covered.
And lest we forget, a mob lied about the nature and severity of Hillary Clinton’s flu symptoms, and much more, in the Fall of 2016 leading up the the election.
I could hear them from here.
Now social media has made everyone fair game so each of us can tarred and feathered like we have been tar and feathering politicians since tar and feathers were found to complement each other.
Damn John Jay! Damn anyone who does not damn John Jay!
Sounds like a problem government might address, but there’s a gigantic mob of Covid-denying pandemic super spreaders heading for Tulsa who will go to every length to not allow that to happen.
One of the biggest race riots in American history took place in Tulsa in 1921 when a racist white mob murdered black citizens and destroyed black businesses.
The entire Confederacy was mob rule (yes, yes, they called it an “army” because whenever a conservative mob wants to look legitimate, they put on uniforms and walk funny) and the sheer number of rapists and mashers among the male mob in this country, not to mention the mob behavior targeted against gays in this country since forever were precedents for today’s mob behavior and pretty much ruined it for everyone.
Today’s mobs did not form in a vacuum.
Twitter, Facebook and other social media organs amplify the mob’s cytokine storm of cancellation culture.
It’s good “business”. Remember that.
We know too of teens who have committed suicide because of concerted mob behavior against them on social media.
The now completely discredited “lamestream” media (now there’s some fake mob hysteria) seems to be stooping to the mob’s demands by allowing mobs of one kind or another to turn their comment sections on the web into gang cesspools.
Local broadcast news “invites” the mob to give their opinions. C-Span long ago tried to segregate the mob into right and left callers and what, moderate callers.
Result: three mobs
Wade into any business/stock market comment section at CNBC, MSN Money, Yahoo Finance, and Seeking Alpha, if you can stand to have your dick measured.
It seems to me that the phenomenon of social media has perverted the long-understood norms of First Amendment rights.
Somewhere along the line, probably when he declared in his dorm room there was no such thing as privacy, Mark Zuckerberg should have had his face punched in, probably by a roommate during one of their bullsh*t sessions.
But instead, his crap because a business plan to be monetized and the mob converted into “consumers”, whatever they are, and once that happens in America, it’s too late to stop evil.
Same with the business plans of Rush Limbaugh and dozens of white supremacist “entertainers”, including Rupert Murdoch’s in house mobs of surly blondes and male airheads.
Their mobs are big time moneymakers, but the thing about grifting mobsters on the right, they are canny enough to not only form the mob, they actually fleece the mob as they wreak havoc.
Black Lives Matter doesn’t seem to be getting rich off their mobs.
My point about private employers, besides that private judgement can be unjust regarding firings even when it is not sparked by a “mob”, is that is was in fact the employers who fired the two individuals mentioned above, not the Mob.
We need either some braver souls like Atticus Finch to sweet talk Mobs to break it up and go home for the night, or better, some private employers who are willing to stand up and tell the Mobs to go f*ck themselves.
Either that or remove Donald Trump’s opposable thumbs, as a good example from on high.
That all said, besides McCarthy, William Randolph Hearst was an expert at assembling mobs to get us into war, as was George W. Bush (Colin Powell, I’m looking at you), and Obamacare was subject to threatened mob violence and discord.
A mob of Republican notables descended on the vote tallying offices of Broward County in 2000. Many of those same went on to legalize corporate mob rule by the very rich in our governance with the Citizens United ruling.
They call themselves an “interest group” of corporate individuals, but they’ve lit afire American politics and governance and broke political norms like so many storefront windows.
A mob of armed right wing self-proclaimed tax cheats descended on a wildlife preserve in Oregon not long ago.
I don’t recall our good conservatives and one libertarian here dropping everything and rushing over here to condemn that crap.
I don’t know, maybe they thought we had it covered.
And lest we forget, a mob lied about the nature and severity of Hillary Clinton’s flu symptoms, and much more, in the Fall of 2016 leading up the the election.
I could hear them from here.
Now social media has made everyone fair game so each of us can tarred and feathered like we have been tar and feathering politicians since tar and feathers were found to complement each other.
Damn John Jay! Damn anyone who does not damn John Jay!
Sounds like a problem government might address, but there’s a gigantic mob of Covid-denying pandemic super spreaders heading for Tulsa who will go to every length to not allow that to happen.
One of the biggest race riots in American history took place in Tulsa in 1921 when a racist white mob murdered black citizens and destroyed black businesses.
The entire Confederacy was mob rule (yes, yes, they called it an “army” because whenever a conservative mob wants to look legitimate, they put on uniforms and walk funny) and the sheer number of rapists and mashers among the male mob in this country, not to mention the mob behavior targeted against gays in this country since forever were precedents for today’s mob behavior and pretty much ruined it for everyone.
Today’s mobs did not form in a vacuum.
Enraged mob rule or … “consumer dissatisfaction”:
https://finance.yahoo.com/video/amc-require-patrons-wear-masks-200015895.html
Enraged mob rule or … “consumer dissatisfaction”:
https://finance.yahoo.com/video/amc-require-patrons-wear-masks-200015895.html
Idiotic maskless mob rule … or consumer dissatisfaction?
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/06/19/my-name-is-apparently-karen-so-put-your-fucking-mask-on-right/
Who is the mob?
State Officials in Austin Texas or local city officials in Houston, Texas?
Idiotic maskless mob rule … or consumer dissatisfaction?
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/06/19/my-name-is-apparently-karen-so-put-your-fucking-mask-on-right/
Who is the mob?
State Officials in Austin Texas or local city officials in Houston, Texas?
behold the online mob!
that left-wing police union has a lot to answer for.
happy ending to that one, though!
tee hee. which is it then, free speech or online mobs run amok?
behold the online mob!
that left-wing police union has a lot to answer for.
happy ending to that one, though!
tee hee. which is it then, free speech or online mobs run amok?
A couple of things.
First I think sapient raises a good point in linking to pictures of assholes showing up at protests armed and threatening. Does showing up in person not count as a “mob?” Is that not cancel culture?
Second, as to the firings, yes they were stupid, unjustified, and, frankly, cowardly. The guy with the non-white supremacy gesture worked for a utility, for Pete’s sake. Were the Twitiots going to cancel their electric service if he wasn’t fired?
A couple of things.
First I think sapient raises a good point in linking to pictures of assholes showing up at protests armed and threatening. Does showing up in person not count as a “mob?” Is that not cancel culture?
Second, as to the firings, yes they were stupid, unjustified, and, frankly, cowardly. The guy with the non-white supremacy gesture worked for a utility, for Pete’s sake. Were the Twitiots going to cancel their electric service if he wasn’t fired?
When you’re counter-protesting Juneteenth, you’ve lost the plot
https://mobile.twitter.com/kirstenglavin/status/1274062068929507328/photo/1
When you’re counter-protesting Juneteenth, you’ve lost the plot
https://mobile.twitter.com/kirstenglavin/status/1274062068929507328/photo/1
If you are whistleblower at Boeing Corp, your employer is a mob:
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3584605-boeing-whistleblower-alleges-systemic-problems-737-max-report
The guy is probably unemployable as well in the future as his entire professional field mobs up against him.
If you are whistleblower at Boeing Corp, your employer is a mob:
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3584605-boeing-whistleblower-alleges-systemic-problems-737-max-report
The guy is probably unemployable as well in the future as his entire professional field mobs up against him.
Is an attempt at Prior restraint for trying to publishing a book Cancel culture?
Is an attempt at Prior restraint for trying to publishing a book Cancel culture?
And OT but there ain’t going to be any meaningful team sporting events in the US this year. It’s all blowing up in the owners’ faces as the players decide maybe risking their lives (and if loved ones) isn’t worth it.
This means, of course, that the Nats will be two-time defending (And non-cheating) WS champs! Woo!
And OT but there ain’t going to be any meaningful team sporting events in the US this year. It’s all blowing up in the owners’ faces as the players decide maybe risking their lives (and if loved ones) isn’t worth it.
This means, of course, that the Nats will be two-time defending (And non-cheating) WS champs! Woo!
The three biggest cancelations of this century that come to my mind are the Dixie Chicks, Colin Kaepernick, and Steven Salaita.
But, yeah, let’s get rid of at-will employment. Fewer people would be getting fired for being assholes outside of work if employers weren’t allowed to fire people for being assholes outside of work.
The three biggest cancelations of this century that come to my mind are the Dixie Chicks, Colin Kaepernick, and Steven Salaita.
But, yeah, let’s get rid of at-will employment. Fewer people would be getting fired for being assholes outside of work if employers weren’t allowed to fire people for being assholes outside of work.
And OT but there ain’t going to be any meaningful team sporting events in the US this year.
Those taxpayer-subsidized sports stadiums are beginning to look humongous white elephants. Instead of very large white elephants.
And OT but there ain’t going to be any meaningful team sporting events in the US this year.
Those taxpayer-subsidized sports stadiums are beginning to look humongous white elephants. Instead of very large white elephants.
No baseball this year. Not even fantasy.
Five Philly ballplayers and staff have tested positive.
Major league ballplayers’ bodies are now really corporations unto themselves. Major investments and assets with future enormous earnings streams.
They aren’t going to risk those assets because they are owned by bigger corporate entities.
Should the players be forced to go back to work like meatpacking employees, because America demands their entertainment, as we demand meat?
Or should meatpacking employees prize their health and their bodies like the privileged ballplayers and be given a year off with pay and benefits?
No baseball this year. Not even fantasy.
Five Philly ballplayers and staff have tested positive.
Major league ballplayers’ bodies are now really corporations unto themselves. Major investments and assets with future enormous earnings streams.
They aren’t going to risk those assets because they are owned by bigger corporate entities.
Should the players be forced to go back to work like meatpacking employees, because America demands their entertainment, as we demand meat?
Or should meatpacking employees prize their health and their bodies like the privileged ballplayers and be given a year off with pay and benefits?
Tragic:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-black-wealth-has-stayed-relatively-flat-since-tulsa-massacre-150041181.html
Tragic:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-black-wealth-has-stayed-relatively-flat-since-tulsa-massacre-150041181.html
tee hee?
tee hee?
Tough reading, a trail of tearful reports repeatedly tossed in the round file and ignored:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/06/22/the-history-of-the-riot-report
Note the McCone thesis therein: peaceful demonstrations cause violence.
Conservatives and racist southern Democrats, soon to be Republicans, in the Sixties didn’t even like Lyndon Johnson’s Rat Extermination Act to lessen rat infestations in the inner cities.
They ridiculed it.
Maybe they thought they would mistaken for the rats.
I keep wondering WHY peaceful demonstrations, like those in Lafayette Park, and even bystanders and black citizens asking for help to protect their businesses are being attacked by police, but law enforcement is not interdicting the looters and Antifa elements to any noticeable degree as they run amok.
Tough reading, a trail of tearful reports repeatedly tossed in the round file and ignored:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/06/22/the-history-of-the-riot-report
Note the McCone thesis therein: peaceful demonstrations cause violence.
Conservatives and racist southern Democrats, soon to be Republicans, in the Sixties didn’t even like Lyndon Johnson’s Rat Extermination Act to lessen rat infestations in the inner cities.
They ridiculed it.
Maybe they thought they would mistaken for the rats.
I keep wondering WHY peaceful demonstrations, like those in Lafayette Park, and even bystanders and black citizens asking for help to protect their businesses are being attacked by police, but law enforcement is not interdicting the looters and Antifa elements to any noticeable degree as they run amok.
Sometimes it’s a matter of canceling them before they cancel us:
https://newrepublic.com/article/158215/florida-coronavirus-cases-ron-desantis-leads-state-morgue
Sometimes it’s a matter of canceling them before they cancel us:
https://newrepublic.com/article/158215/florida-coronavirus-cases-ron-desantis-leads-state-morgue
there are assholes everywhere. it’s not a ‘culture’, it’s just people being dicks.
Yep. But often, people don’t notice the assholes who support their views, just the ones who don’t…
there are assholes everywhere. it’s not a ‘culture’, it’s just people being dicks.
Yep. But often, people don’t notice the assholes who support their views, just the ones who don’t…
Looks like someone else got canceled too
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/navy-won-t-reinstate-captain-fired-raising-coronavirus-concerns-n1231582
To my uninformed eyes this stinks (mixed metaphor) and reeks of superior scapegoating.
First it was about shortcutting the chain of command out of uncalled-for anxious concern that things were not moving fast enough, now it’s about not reacting to the crisis fast enough. My money is still on ‘you dared to embarass us and draw the ire of the supreme baboon down on all of us caring more about the common scum manning our favorite toys than about us you own your only allegiance to. Now suffer the consequences with added interest.’ as long as there is not compelling eveidence to the contrary. The crew seems not to have had the impression that their captain was doing a bad job there.
Looks like someone else got canceled too
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/navy-won-t-reinstate-captain-fired-raising-coronavirus-concerns-n1231582
To my uninformed eyes this stinks (mixed metaphor) and reeks of superior scapegoating.
First it was about shortcutting the chain of command out of uncalled-for anxious concern that things were not moving fast enough, now it’s about not reacting to the crisis fast enough. My money is still on ‘you dared to embarass us and draw the ire of the supreme baboon down on all of us caring more about the common scum manning our favorite toys than about us you own your only allegiance to. Now suffer the consequences with added interest.’ as long as there is not compelling eveidence to the contrary. The crew seems not to have had the impression that their captain was doing a bad job there.
In some red states, the cancelers and those they wish to cancel are of the same party, and of course the meanness and sadism of it increases the farther to the right of the Overton Window one ventures:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/greg-abbott-wheelchair-empower-texans
The perps, themselves now canceled, until the republican party uncancels them for future battles against liberals:
https://empowertexans.com/
Masks, natch.
The disabled, natch.
And just when you get a good hate on of Texas’ Lieutenant Governor for offering up the elderly and infirm to Corona-19 sacrifice, someone worse in that party comes along to make HIM appear normative.
By the way, the Republican Party, to my mind, jump-started mob cancellation culture in politics with its decades-long purge of RINOs from their exquisite inner sanctums of governance.
On the other hand, if I, the liberal, were a campus academic and was harassed by characters presuming themselves to be to my Left and on my side of the issues, including having my classroom activities rudely disrupted and my job threatened, as opposed to being subjected to mere civil criticism, I wouldn’t be fired for whatever thought crime accusations were brought against me, I would be fired for physically assaulting the individuals who physically disrupted my teaching activities AND those who caved to their behavior.
I don’t even like arrogant bullies I agree with. They bring out the bully in me.
And if the self-righteous rump right in turn decided to valorize me for those actions, say, Rod Dreher, for example, I’d tell THEM to eff off as well with my fists.
If I’d been a guest on Firing Line when William F Buckley, Gore Vidal, and Norman Mailer were about to go a few rounds back in the day before yesterday (they nearly did), I’m not sure of the three of them who I’d punch first if it came to that.
To paraphrase Groucho, I make a lousy club member….
….. except for the Hypocrite Club, where I can blend in.
In some red states, the cancelers and those they wish to cancel are of the same party, and of course the meanness and sadism of it increases the farther to the right of the Overton Window one ventures:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/greg-abbott-wheelchair-empower-texans
The perps, themselves now canceled, until the republican party uncancels them for future battles against liberals:
https://empowertexans.com/
Masks, natch.
The disabled, natch.
And just when you get a good hate on of Texas’ Lieutenant Governor for offering up the elderly and infirm to Corona-19 sacrifice, someone worse in that party comes along to make HIM appear normative.
By the way, the Republican Party, to my mind, jump-started mob cancellation culture in politics with its decades-long purge of RINOs from their exquisite inner sanctums of governance.
On the other hand, if I, the liberal, were a campus academic and was harassed by characters presuming themselves to be to my Left and on my side of the issues, including having my classroom activities rudely disrupted and my job threatened, as opposed to being subjected to mere civil criticism, I wouldn’t be fired for whatever thought crime accusations were brought against me, I would be fired for physically assaulting the individuals who physically disrupted my teaching activities AND those who caved to their behavior.
I don’t even like arrogant bullies I agree with. They bring out the bully in me.
And if the self-righteous rump right in turn decided to valorize me for those actions, say, Rod Dreher, for example, I’d tell THEM to eff off as well with my fists.
If I’d been a guest on Firing Line when William F Buckley, Gore Vidal, and Norman Mailer were about to go a few rounds back in the day before yesterday (they nearly did), I’m not sure of the three of them who I’d punch first if it came to that.
To paraphrase Groucho, I make a lousy club member….
….. except for the Hypocrite Club, where I can blend in.
The Justice Department cancellations were proceeding apace until Geoffrey S. Berman bravely refused to be cancelled.
The Justice Department cancellations were proceeding apace until Geoffrey S. Berman bravely refused to be cancelled.
Damn, I deleted a very long comment that, to paraphrase our revered leader, was ‘perfect!’
Anyway, the National Review maintains a CC “body count” of recent examples of what the aggregators call CC incidents. For those willing to step out of their comfort zone, here is the link: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/the-cancel-counter/?utm_source=recirc-desktop&utm_medium=homepage&utm_campaign=river&utm_content=featured-content-trending&utm_term=first
As an aside, I usually read the LGM and American Prospect links others provide, FWIW.
Also, FWIW, I draw a very bright line between Jefferson, Washington, etc. and the heroes and flag of the Glorious Cause. The latter belong in museums, not the public square and not on state flags. The former should be assessed in context and by the totality of who they were and what the said and did.
I’ll address the three of the examples of CC imputed to the right:
1. Colin Kaepernick–people who wish to make a public statement, political, religious, whatever, are free to do so but they are not immunized from others’ right of rebuttal or right to disagree or right to disengage. CK made millions off of a market that, to a huge extent, respects the flag and sees the national anthem as a time to stand and reflect and be a part of something bigger. He was not cancelled because of his Facebook comments or because he marched at a campus or because he failed to agree with someone else’s political agenda. He–a public commodity–was rejected by the public for stupidly and gratuitously insulting his customer base.
A lot of people–I am one–do not like having someone else’s political views served up to me when I am paying for a product that should be free of everyone’s politics. If I watch a game or buy a ticket, I know what I’m getting. I don’t have to watch and I don’t have to go. But, the product itself is well known and well understood. If the primary beneficiaries of that product and my money choose to make it about THEIR politics, then I’m out. I didn’t start the conversation, so to speak, and I don’t care to be involuntarily dragged into it. That isn’t CC. That is finding out that people don’t have to pay to listen to your or anyone else’s politics.
2. The Dixie Chicks–if a public commodity whose fan base is the country music crowd wants to travel overseas and gratuitously insult their own country, they are free to do so. For some on the left, that resonates. For many others, it comes across as ass-kissing, opportunistic, tone-deaf virtue-signaling. If I’m a fan, I can choose to be a former fan. I didn’t cancel anyone. I simply decide not to give my money to someone who wants to make my participation in their operation contingent on listening to their political views.
3. Russell’s Restaurant Owner Friend–this is closer to the CC culture but still not on point. First of all, the Friend was not employed by someone who then fired her because of outside complainers about her or her daughter’s political views. She was self employed in the service industry. As a general rule of thumb for peeps in the public service industry, keeping your politics and your religion to yourself is a good move. Leaving aside that bit of advice, while it is shitty that people held her daughter’s–who did work at the restaurant–views against the mother, they did not demand that the daughter be fired and that the mother renounce her daughter. Rather, they simply severed ties. It is a difference in kind and not in degree.
Further, some of you may remember a discussion a while back when a number of folks here endorsed excluding MAGA hat wearers from public facilities. I argued against that and was in the minority in doing so. I argued then that it is an unfortunate feature of some on the left who think so highly of their views that they can impose them on others as they go about their everyday lives. Certain Republican figures were refused restaurant service–I can’t remember who and I don’t care–and most here seemed just fine with that. Yet, when public figures like CK and the Dixie Chicks attempt politicize their customers and the customers decline further engagement, that’s a bad thing.
There is no unifying principle here. It is ideology masquerading as manners and one of its manifestations is the very pronounced lefty proclivity for CC–going after people in their everyday activities based on their political views or opinions or for not being expressly on board with the lefty view of the day. For example, do not–in any way–criticize BLM or anything having to do with the post-Floyd excesses in some quarters.
We all have to make a living. 99.9% of us do so outside of our political views. To now find ourselves in a time when disagreeing with the BLM movement is cause for third party agitators to demand that our employers terminate our jobs is really hard to reduce to a single word. It is a form of political tyranny, of compelled acquiescence in a viewpoint that, quite frankly, the more one learns of it, the less attractive it is. It is everything bad about the left, the farther one moves on the spectrum.
A final note: whataboutism. A number of commentators and even headliners here have used that term as if it is, in and of itself, a substantive rebuttal to someone else’s argument. It is not a rebuttal and it is not substantive.
It is a form of asserting tua quoque in lieu of substantive engagement.
Hypocrisy is always fair comment. Ditto double standards and taking inconsistent positions. I am fine when people respond to my positions by pointing out what they think are inconsistent positions elsewhere or that my brush is too narrow and fails to capture examples outside the lefty sphere I consistently disagree with.
All of that foreplay is a prelude to saying simply this: everyone here who thinks it is clever or responsive to assert ‘whataboutism’ needs to read their comments in this thread before ever making that statement again.
Damn, I deleted a very long comment that, to paraphrase our revered leader, was ‘perfect!’
Anyway, the National Review maintains a CC “body count” of recent examples of what the aggregators call CC incidents. For those willing to step out of their comfort zone, here is the link: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/the-cancel-counter/?utm_source=recirc-desktop&utm_medium=homepage&utm_campaign=river&utm_content=featured-content-trending&utm_term=first
As an aside, I usually read the LGM and American Prospect links others provide, FWIW.
Also, FWIW, I draw a very bright line between Jefferson, Washington, etc. and the heroes and flag of the Glorious Cause. The latter belong in museums, not the public square and not on state flags. The former should be assessed in context and by the totality of who they were and what the said and did.
I’ll address the three of the examples of CC imputed to the right:
1. Colin Kaepernick–people who wish to make a public statement, political, religious, whatever, are free to do so but they are not immunized from others’ right of rebuttal or right to disagree or right to disengage. CK made millions off of a market that, to a huge extent, respects the flag and sees the national anthem as a time to stand and reflect and be a part of something bigger. He was not cancelled because of his Facebook comments or because he marched at a campus or because he failed to agree with someone else’s political agenda. He–a public commodity–was rejected by the public for stupidly and gratuitously insulting his customer base.
A lot of people–I am one–do not like having someone else’s political views served up to me when I am paying for a product that should be free of everyone’s politics. If I watch a game or buy a ticket, I know what I’m getting. I don’t have to watch and I don’t have to go. But, the product itself is well known and well understood. If the primary beneficiaries of that product and my money choose to make it about THEIR politics, then I’m out. I didn’t start the conversation, so to speak, and I don’t care to be involuntarily dragged into it. That isn’t CC. That is finding out that people don’t have to pay to listen to your or anyone else’s politics.
2. The Dixie Chicks–if a public commodity whose fan base is the country music crowd wants to travel overseas and gratuitously insult their own country, they are free to do so. For some on the left, that resonates. For many others, it comes across as ass-kissing, opportunistic, tone-deaf virtue-signaling. If I’m a fan, I can choose to be a former fan. I didn’t cancel anyone. I simply decide not to give my money to someone who wants to make my participation in their operation contingent on listening to their political views.
3. Russell’s Restaurant Owner Friend–this is closer to the CC culture but still not on point. First of all, the Friend was not employed by someone who then fired her because of outside complainers about her or her daughter’s political views. She was self employed in the service industry. As a general rule of thumb for peeps in the public service industry, keeping your politics and your religion to yourself is a good move. Leaving aside that bit of advice, while it is shitty that people held her daughter’s–who did work at the restaurant–views against the mother, they did not demand that the daughter be fired and that the mother renounce her daughter. Rather, they simply severed ties. It is a difference in kind and not in degree.
Further, some of you may remember a discussion a while back when a number of folks here endorsed excluding MAGA hat wearers from public facilities. I argued against that and was in the minority in doing so. I argued then that it is an unfortunate feature of some on the left who think so highly of their views that they can impose them on others as they go about their everyday lives. Certain Republican figures were refused restaurant service–I can’t remember who and I don’t care–and most here seemed just fine with that. Yet, when public figures like CK and the Dixie Chicks attempt politicize their customers and the customers decline further engagement, that’s a bad thing.
There is no unifying principle here. It is ideology masquerading as manners and one of its manifestations is the very pronounced lefty proclivity for CC–going after people in their everyday activities based on their political views or opinions or for not being expressly on board with the lefty view of the day. For example, do not–in any way–criticize BLM or anything having to do with the post-Floyd excesses in some quarters.
We all have to make a living. 99.9% of us do so outside of our political views. To now find ourselves in a time when disagreeing with the BLM movement is cause for third party agitators to demand that our employers terminate our jobs is really hard to reduce to a single word. It is a form of political tyranny, of compelled acquiescence in a viewpoint that, quite frankly, the more one learns of it, the less attractive it is. It is everything bad about the left, the farther one moves on the spectrum.
A final note: whataboutism. A number of commentators and even headliners here have used that term as if it is, in and of itself, a substantive rebuttal to someone else’s argument. It is not a rebuttal and it is not substantive.
It is a form of asserting tua quoque in lieu of substantive engagement.
Hypocrisy is always fair comment. Ditto double standards and taking inconsistent positions. I am fine when people respond to my positions by pointing out what they think are inconsistent positions elsewhere or that my brush is too narrow and fails to capture examples outside the lefty sphere I consistently disagree with.
All of that foreplay is a prelude to saying simply this: everyone here who thinks it is clever or responsive to assert ‘whataboutism’ needs to read their comments in this thread before ever making that statement again.
McKinney, regarding “whataboutism”, you specifically asked that people show you:
Show me the persistent right wing twitter mobs and their results. Show me the right wing campus movements that deny others their speakers and hound non-conforming students and faculty.
So some of us showed you. Now we’re whatabouters?
McKinney, regarding “whataboutism”, you specifically asked that people show you:
Show me the persistent right wing twitter mobs and their results. Show me the right wing campus movements that deny others their speakers and hound non-conforming students and faculty.
So some of us showed you. Now we’re whatabouters?
It is a form of asserting tua quoque in lieu of substantive engagement.
LOL.
how dare we illustrate the nonsense of your oft-repeated assertion that this is a “very pronounced lefty proclivity”! why, it’s a logical fallacy to do so!
It is a form of asserting tua quoque in lieu of substantive engagement.
LOL.
how dare we illustrate the nonsense of your oft-repeated assertion that this is a “very pronounced lefty proclivity”! why, it’s a logical fallacy to do so!
tee hee?
It’s the new lefty anarcho-syndicalist call sign.
Antifa elements
In the imaginations of the right, antifa plays the role of McCavity the cat. They are the Hidden Paw, the secret prime mover behind all of the violence, rioting, and looting.
Has anyone here ever met anyone claiming to be a member of antifa? Had, or been party to, a conversation with one? Seen one in the flesh?
I’m not an antifa supporter. They start fights. It’s not helpful.
But don’t believe the hype.
tee hee?
It’s the new lefty anarcho-syndicalist call sign.
Antifa elements
In the imaginations of the right, antifa plays the role of McCavity the cat. They are the Hidden Paw, the secret prime mover behind all of the violence, rioting, and looting.
Has anyone here ever met anyone claiming to be a member of antifa? Had, or been party to, a conversation with one? Seen one in the flesh?
I’m not an antifa supporter. They start fights. It’s not helpful.
But don’t believe the hype.
So some of us showed you. Now we’re whatabouters?
Sapient, fair point, sort of. I asked for “right wing twitter mobs” and “right wing campus movements”. I got neither. I got a lot of other stuff, but not that. Furthermore, there was plenty of whataboutism before I made that specific challenge to nous. However, let me be clear: “whataboutism” as a self-contained response is meaningless. Pointing out, as many did, their views of inconsistencies or that CC extends beyond the left–classic whataboutism–is perfectly fine. It is a substantive response to a position they disagree with. I have no issue with substantive responses. I prefer them.
So some of us showed you. Now we’re whatabouters?
Sapient, fair point, sort of. I asked for “right wing twitter mobs” and “right wing campus movements”. I got neither. I got a lot of other stuff, but not that. Furthermore, there was plenty of whataboutism before I made that specific challenge to nous. However, let me be clear: “whataboutism” as a self-contained response is meaningless. Pointing out, as many did, their views of inconsistencies or that CC extends beyond the left–classic whataboutism–is perfectly fine. It is a substantive response to a position they disagree with. I have no issue with substantive responses. I prefer them.
McTX: Further, some of you may remember a discussion a while back when a number of folks here endorsed excluding MAGA hat wearers from public facilities
“Public” facilities? You’ll have to back that one up, McKinney.
When you buy a ticket to a football game, you want to watch 2-3 hours of violence interrupted by committee meetings without having anyone’s politics distract from the business at hand.
When I sell booze and a place to drink it for 2-3 hours, why should I be required to allow anyone’s politics to distract from the business at hand?
You’re allowed to boycott sellers of entertainment, but the sellers of entertainment are not allowed to boycott you?
Incidentally, you seem to be fine with politically correct extra-curricular activities like standing for the national anthem at sporting events. How do you feel about dress codes at privately-owned “public” places?
–TP
McTX: Further, some of you may remember a discussion a while back when a number of folks here endorsed excluding MAGA hat wearers from public facilities
“Public” facilities? You’ll have to back that one up, McKinney.
When you buy a ticket to a football game, you want to watch 2-3 hours of violence interrupted by committee meetings without having anyone’s politics distract from the business at hand.
When I sell booze and a place to drink it for 2-3 hours, why should I be required to allow anyone’s politics to distract from the business at hand?
You’re allowed to boycott sellers of entertainment, but the sellers of entertainment are not allowed to boycott you?
Incidentally, you seem to be fine with politically correct extra-curricular activities like standing for the national anthem at sporting events. How do you feel about dress codes at privately-owned “public” places?
–TP
Yep. But often, people don’t notice the assholes who support their views, just the ones who don’t…
You know, lj’s comment really says it all about the relative behaviours of “rightwing” and “leftwing” “cancel culture”, stipulating that there are no doubt better and more accurate terms for everything in quotes, depending on who’s doing the condemning.
Yep. But often, people don’t notice the assholes who support their views, just the ones who don’t…
You know, lj’s comment really says it all about the relative behaviours of “rightwing” and “leftwing” “cancel culture”, stipulating that there are no doubt better and more accurate terms for everything in quotes, depending on who’s doing the condemning.
I asked for “right wing twitter mobs”
You yourself cited gamergate. Which was exactly that.
Not that it matters much to me either way. Whether Twitter was used or not, or whether bullying and harassment happens on campus or not, seems somewhat beside the point.
Bullying and harassment, and when and whether it is ever justified, seems to be the question here. Or at least, should be.
But since you asked, that’s a fairly well known example, and one you raised yourself.
I’m also finding myself hard-pressed to see anybody jumping to the defense of “cancel culture” here. The consensus seems to be that different cases are different, and should be considered as such.
There are real windmills to tilt at, if you’re so inclined. This doesn’t seem to be one of them.
I asked for “right wing twitter mobs”
You yourself cited gamergate. Which was exactly that.
Not that it matters much to me either way. Whether Twitter was used or not, or whether bullying and harassment happens on campus or not, seems somewhat beside the point.
Bullying and harassment, and when and whether it is ever justified, seems to be the question here. Or at least, should be.
But since you asked, that’s a fairly well known example, and one you raised yourself.
I’m also finding myself hard-pressed to see anybody jumping to the defense of “cancel culture” here. The consensus seems to be that different cases are different, and should be considered as such.
There are real windmills to tilt at, if you’re so inclined. This doesn’t seem to be one of them.
If you want to dig any deeper into “right wing twitter mobs”, start with Milo Yiannopoulis. Pull that thread and see where it leads you.
It’s not something I’d recommend, because Milo and his sad career of basically being a dick for a living is not actually a very edifying narrative.
But if you’re actually curious, that’s a very good place to start.
If you want to dig any deeper into “right wing twitter mobs”, start with Milo Yiannopoulis. Pull that thread and see where it leads you.
It’s not something I’d recommend, because Milo and his sad career of basically being a dick for a living is not actually a very edifying narrative.
But if you’re actually curious, that’s a very good place to start.
There are real windmills to tilt at, if you’re so inclined. This doesn’t seem to be one of them.
wrs
That said, I can’t help mentioning some of Trump’s well-known Twitter victims. He led the twitter bully mob against multiple FBI officials and government officials, and others he has considered a threat. These mobs were organized by the leader of our government. This seems much more dangerous and worry-worthy to me.
There are real windmills to tilt at, if you’re so inclined. This doesn’t seem to be one of them.
wrs
That said, I can’t help mentioning some of Trump’s well-known Twitter victims. He led the twitter bully mob against multiple FBI officials and government officials, and others he has considered a threat. These mobs were organized by the leader of our government. This seems much more dangerous and worry-worthy to me.
also check out how police and white supremacist gangs like to use Twitter to direct abuse towards protestors:
someone should tell Fox News about this!
also check out how police and white supremacist gangs like to use Twitter to direct abuse towards protestors:
someone should tell Fox News about this!
This thread has turned into an argument with Grandpa Simpson yelling at a cloud.
This thread has turned into an argument with Grandpa Simpson yelling at a cloud.
get your own onion
get your own onion
I have long since embraced the fact that I have become Abe Simpson, yelling at clouds.
It’s that, or yell at the dog, and I don’t have a dog.
I have long since embraced the fact that I have become Abe Simpson, yelling at clouds.
It’s that, or yell at the dog, and I don’t have a dog.
back to Bowie…
when that interview happened, a lot of people thought that hip-hop and rap weren’t actually music. some still try to make that argument.
back to Bowie…
when that interview happened, a lot of people thought that hip-hop and rap weren’t actually music. some still try to make that argument.
Well actually, rap is more poetry than actual music.
When you think about it, getting Americans e thused about poetry recitations/readings is quite the achievement. I knew people, in my several-decades-younger days, who attemped to emulate the medieval bards in that regard. But it was a very narrow demograpgic. The idea of its acquiring general popularity would never have occurred to me.
Well actually, rap is more poetry than actual music.
When you think about it, getting Americans e thused about poetry recitations/readings is quite the achievement. I knew people, in my several-decades-younger days, who attemped to emulate the medieval bards in that regard. But it was a very narrow demograpgic. The idea of its acquiring general popularity would never have occurred to me.
Well actually, rap is more poetry than actual music.
the video at that link didn’t change your mind?
Well actually, rap is more poetry than actual music.
the video at that link didn’t change your mind?
What exactly is Tutrning Point’s “Professor Watch List,” if not “cancel culture?”
What exactly is Tutrning Point’s “Professor Watch List,” if not “cancel culture?”
byomtov – “professor watch list” and the FIRE databases aren’t cancel culture because that term didn’t exist when McCcarthyism was the rule, so they get grandfathered in as “individual liberty” or “fighting academic bias.”
And even in the FIRE disinvitation database, 11 of 18 pages are complaints from the right (abortion, Marxism, criminal records, pro-palestinian activism, etc.)
And just you try scheduling a talk from Anita Sarkeesian on your campus.
byomtov – “professor watch list” and the FIRE databases aren’t cancel culture because that term didn’t exist when McCcarthyism was the rule, so they get grandfathered in as “individual liberty” or “fighting academic bias.”
And even in the FIRE disinvitation database, 11 of 18 pages are complaints from the right (abortion, Marxism, criminal records, pro-palestinian activism, etc.)
And just you try scheduling a talk from Anita Sarkeesian on your campus.
Nope, the video didn’t change my mind. I don’t agree with Shapiro either, but that’s not the same thing.
I’m not equating rap to normal speech, as the only alternative to music. I’m calling it poetry — not the same thing at all.
Nope, the video didn’t change my mind. I don’t agree with Shapiro either, but that’s not the same thing.
I’m not equating rap to normal speech, as the only alternative to music. I’m calling it poetry — not the same thing at all.
nous: I tried. Apparently McCarthyism and its attendant blacklisting didn’t make the cut as “cancel culture”.
nous: I tried. Apparently McCarthyism and its attendant blacklisting didn’t make the cut as “cancel culture”.
I’m calling it poetry — not the same thing at all.
seems like there’s more to it than just rhyming words with a strong rhythm, tho. doesn’t the stuff in the background count for anything? plus, it’s been a long, long time since rap was just a couple of guys spitting over a bare drum machine. actually singing the chorus (strong melody and all that) has been a standard feature since the early-90s. and rapping over someone else’s music is where it all came from in the first place (disc jockeys stretching out song intros and breaks so they could do ‘dedications’ and shout-outs to their listeners).
I’m calling it poetry — not the same thing at all.
seems like there’s more to it than just rhyming words with a strong rhythm, tho. doesn’t the stuff in the background count for anything? plus, it’s been a long, long time since rap was just a couple of guys spitting over a bare drum machine. actually singing the chorus (strong melody and all that) has been a standard feature since the early-90s. and rapping over someone else’s music is where it all came from in the first place (disc jockeys stretching out song intros and breaks so they could do ‘dedications’ and shout-outs to their listeners).
Apparently McCarthyism and its attendant blacklisting didn’t make the cut as “cancel culture”.
well, sure. that’s by definition. “cancel culture” is what lefties do.
Apparently McCarthyism and its attendant blacklisting didn’t make the cut as “cancel culture”.
well, sure. that’s by definition. “cancel culture” is what lefties do.
Members of Trump’s Republican Party campaign advance team in Tulsa test positive for bioterrorism:
https://twitter.com/JoshNBCNews/status/1274401799286513672
Their job is to case the joint in preparation, like all anti-American terrorist organizations and without interference from Homeland Security, for murdering American citizens by spreading the deadly disease and ready Tulsa’s citizenry for the consequences of electing a murderous Republican Christian death cult, which believes I am part of a disposable herd and they shall be the raptured chosen.
What is ODD is fretting over cancel culture as this horror happens in real time on American soil.
I cannot continue.
I fully expect, if Trump is re-elected, or even before, I will be threatened with arrest and prosecution if I don’t surrender myself to being infected with this virus. Conservative republican spreaders will hunt me down.
America is a nightmare. It is depraved.
Deliberately infect us with deadly diseases and withdraw from all treaties governing nuclear weaponry, global warming, and healthcare.
They are coming. They are here.
I’ve known this since I was a child. I saw them in my nightmares.
Members of Trump’s Republican Party campaign advance team in Tulsa test positive for bioterrorism:
https://twitter.com/JoshNBCNews/status/1274401799286513672
Their job is to case the joint in preparation, like all anti-American terrorist organizations and without interference from Homeland Security, for murdering American citizens by spreading the deadly disease and ready Tulsa’s citizenry for the consequences of electing a murderous Republican Christian death cult, which believes I am part of a disposable herd and they shall be the raptured chosen.
What is ODD is fretting over cancel culture as this horror happens in real time on American soil.
I cannot continue.
I fully expect, if Trump is re-elected, or even before, I will be threatened with arrest and prosecution if I don’t surrender myself to being infected with this virus. Conservative republican spreaders will hunt me down.
America is a nightmare. It is depraved.
Deliberately infect us with deadly diseases and withdraw from all treaties governing nuclear weaponry, global warming, and healthcare.
They are coming. They are here.
I’ve known this since I was a child. I saw them in my nightmares.
“cancel culture” is what lefties do.
Right. Whoever knew McKinney was an adherent of what you might call the Humpty Dumpty school of lexicography:
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“cancel culture” is what lefties do.
Right. Whoever knew McKinney was an adherent of what you might call the Humpty Dumpty school of lexicography:
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
Lyric writing is poetry (or prosody in some cases). Performed without musical accompaniment it is slam poetry. But what a DJ does is music. Combine an MC with a DJ and you have music. Combine the lyrics with elements of melody and you have music.
Try on some DJ Shadow. Would you argue that this is poetry?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InFbBlpDTfQ
DJ Shadow collaborates with many MCs. When he adds an MC to his track does it immediately become poetry?
What is the dividing line between André 3000s lyricism that renders him a poet, and Lou Reed’s lyricism that renders him a musician?
Lyric writing is poetry (or prosody in some cases). Performed without musical accompaniment it is slam poetry. But what a DJ does is music. Combine an MC with a DJ and you have music. Combine the lyrics with elements of melody and you have music.
Try on some DJ Shadow. Would you argue that this is poetry?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InFbBlpDTfQ
DJ Shadow collaborates with many MCs. When he adds an MC to his track does it immediately become poetry?
What is the dividing line between André 3000s lyricism that renders him a poet, and Lou Reed’s lyricism that renders him a musician?
“At long last, have you left no sense of decency?” reminded me of the conclusion of Applebaum’s recent piece.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/trumps-collaborators/612250/
In the meantime, I leave anyone who has the bad luck to be in public life at this moment with a final thought from Władysław Bartoszewski, who was a member of the wartime Polish underground, a prisoner of both the Nazis and the Stalinists, and then, finally, the foreign minister in two Polish democratic governments. Late in his life—he lived to be 93—he summed up the philosophy that had guided him through all of these tumultuous political changes. It was not idealism that drove him, or big ideas, he said. It was this: Warto być przyzwoitym—“Just try to be decent.” Whether you were decent—that’s what will be remembered.
It’s not an answer to addressing the endemic racism in our societies, but it is essential if we are to hold them together while we do.
“At long last, have you left no sense of decency?” reminded me of the conclusion of Applebaum’s recent piece.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/trumps-collaborators/612250/
In the meantime, I leave anyone who has the bad luck to be in public life at this moment with a final thought from Władysław Bartoszewski, who was a member of the wartime Polish underground, a prisoner of both the Nazis and the Stalinists, and then, finally, the foreign minister in two Polish democratic governments. Late in his life—he lived to be 93—he summed up the philosophy that had guided him through all of these tumultuous political changes. It was not idealism that drove him, or big ideas, he said. It was this: Warto być przyzwoitym—“Just try to be decent.” Whether you were decent—that’s what will be remembered.
It’s not an answer to addressing the endemic racism in our societies, but it is essential if we are to hold them together while we do.
“John Roberts is David Souter,” Newsweek’s conservative opinion editor, Josh Hammer, said Thursday.”
Speaking of cancel culture. Originating from a conservative writing for a commie organ.
Remember when punk Erick Erickson canceled David Souter on social media?
What is ex-communication if not cancel culture among the Christian sects.
Shunned in this life and proclaimed tossed from God’s Everlasting Kingdom.
Dreher does this trick daily.
“John Roberts is David Souter,” Newsweek’s conservative opinion editor, Josh Hammer, said Thursday.”
Speaking of cancel culture. Originating from a conservative writing for a commie organ.
Remember when punk Erick Erickson canceled David Souter on social media?
What is ex-communication if not cancel culture among the Christian sects.
Shunned in this life and proclaimed tossed from God’s Everlasting Kingdom.
Dreher does this trick daily.
Nigel, not only did I think that piece was excellent (as my long fight with Donald over it proved), but everyone I forwarded it to, from small-c conservative/moderate rightwingers, to fairly left/old Labour types, also thought it was really good. You didn’t have to agree with all Applebaum’s views of desirable foreign policy, to be impressed by her marshalling of some of the history, the facts about the Trump enablers, and the examples of collaboration in the 20th/21st century, to think it was an extremely valuable journalistic contribution to these times. And I still think that what she said about Mattis might have influenced his eventual speaking out. Thank you for originally pointing us towards it (I think I heard it first from you).
Nigel, not only did I think that piece was excellent (as my long fight with Donald over it proved), but everyone I forwarded it to, from small-c conservative/moderate rightwingers, to fairly left/old Labour types, also thought it was really good. You didn’t have to agree with all Applebaum’s views of desirable foreign policy, to be impressed by her marshalling of some of the history, the facts about the Trump enablers, and the examples of collaboration in the 20th/21st century, to think it was an extremely valuable journalistic contribution to these times. And I still think that what she said about Mattis might have influenced his eventual speaking out. Thank you for originally pointing us towards it (I think I heard it first from you).
Well, getting back to normal I see. I’m still out of action for at least a week because of real life online committments, but I would highlight another point that strikes me when I read through this exchange.
McT leapt into the fray condemning ‘woke culture’ and ‘SJW’s, assuming that everyone already knows
1)which incidents he’s referring to
and assuming that the incidents
a)went down the way he remembered them and
b)everyone here would automatically have an opposite view to them that he has.
This has the rest of us try to figure out which incidents he is talking about and then patiently trying to explain why McT may be
1)wrong about his view of the incident and/or
2)wrong about the way he automatically places them in this file drawer called ‘the left’.
It reminds me of what Kurt Vonnegut said about being labeled as science fiction, he didn’t mind being put in that drawer except for the fact that it was a drawer that people often peed in all the time.
I only come to this realization because this discussion has some examples that McT feels he is forced to address. (mirabile dictu!) Unsurprisngly, he doesn’t think that Kaepernick and the Dixie Chicks count for much, but is more inclined to grant some thought to Russell’s example, though on reflection, Russell’s example is simply proof of what he (McT) said earlier about how he was against all of us who were demanding that MAGA hat wearers be dragged behind trucks. Or something like that.
It occurs to me that a lot of this back and forth could be avoided if McT simply started with the examples he had in mind. He might even give a link to refresh our memories. Maybe it’s just me, but that might be a bit more productive. But then, it might not be as much fun. Though at some point, people may just stop biting at hooks.
Well, getting back to normal I see. I’m still out of action for at least a week because of real life online committments, but I would highlight another point that strikes me when I read through this exchange.
McT leapt into the fray condemning ‘woke culture’ and ‘SJW’s, assuming that everyone already knows
1)which incidents he’s referring to
and assuming that the incidents
a)went down the way he remembered them and
b)everyone here would automatically have an opposite view to them that he has.
This has the rest of us try to figure out which incidents he is talking about and then patiently trying to explain why McT may be
1)wrong about his view of the incident and/or
2)wrong about the way he automatically places them in this file drawer called ‘the left’.
It reminds me of what Kurt Vonnegut said about being labeled as science fiction, he didn’t mind being put in that drawer except for the fact that it was a drawer that people often peed in all the time.
I only come to this realization because this discussion has some examples that McT feels he is forced to address. (mirabile dictu!) Unsurprisngly, he doesn’t think that Kaepernick and the Dixie Chicks count for much, but is more inclined to grant some thought to Russell’s example, though on reflection, Russell’s example is simply proof of what he (McT) said earlier about how he was against all of us who were demanding that MAGA hat wearers be dragged behind trucks. Or something like that.
It occurs to me that a lot of this back and forth could be avoided if McT simply started with the examples he had in mind. He might even give a link to refresh our memories. Maybe it’s just me, but that might be a bit more productive. But then, it might not be as much fun. Though at some point, people may just stop biting at hooks.
Colorado Armed National Guard troops should be stationed at Denver International Airport, the bus and train stations, and at the border along major highway routes leading from the plague festival in Tulsa, Oklahoma and interdict by force all returning murderous republican Covid pilgrims as they deliberately smuggle in their deliberately acquired viral loads to infect and kill Coloradans.
Turn them away to at least quarantine under veterinary medical supervision at Tony Exotic’s petting zoo with the rest of their herd. If they are traveling with children, take the kids into custodial medical care until the parents’ irresponsibility can be adjudicated in the Courts and adoptive parents can be found.
If they resist, go Blue Lives Matter all over them.
Colorado Armed National Guard troops should be stationed at Denver International Airport, the bus and train stations, and at the border along major highway routes leading from the plague festival in Tulsa, Oklahoma and interdict by force all returning murderous republican Covid pilgrims as they deliberately smuggle in their deliberately acquired viral loads to infect and kill Coloradans.
Turn them away to at least quarantine under veterinary medical supervision at Tony Exotic’s petting zoo with the rest of their herd. If they are traveling with children, take the kids into custodial medical care until the parents’ irresponsibility can be adjudicated in the Courts and adoptive parents can be found.
If they resist, go Blue Lives Matter all over them.
We aren’t going to make to the election:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-denies-involvement-in-berman-ouster-right-after-barr-told-berman-potus-fired-him
We aren’t going to make to the election:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-denies-involvement-in-berman-ouster-right-after-barr-told-berman-potus-fired-him
What is going to happen to Bolsanaro in Brazil over the next six months as that country cracks opens and goes up in chaotic vengeful flames will be a dress rehearsal for America.
What is going to happen to Bolsanaro in Brazil over the next six months as that country cracks opens and goes up in chaotic vengeful flames will be a dress rehearsal for America.
I’m holding on to McKinney’s statement that if Ted Cruz burst into flames, he (McKinney) wouldn’t put the flames out with raw sewage.
As exculpatory evidence proving kindred basic human decency.
I’m holding on to McKinney’s statement that if Ted Cruz burst into flames, he (McKinney) wouldn’t put the flames out with raw sewage.
As exculpatory evidence proving kindred basic human decency.
that Applebaum piece just makes me sad
that Applebaum piece just makes me sad
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/federal-employee-put-leave-confronting-teen-girls-disturbing/story?id=71363530
Turns out there is a Deep State.
It is republican, racist, and conducts cancellations in person.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/federal-employee-put-leave-confronting-teen-girls-disturbing/story?id=71363530
Turns out there is a Deep State.
It is republican, racist, and conducts cancellations in person.
No, John Thullen, you don’t understand. The real cancel culture villains here are the media for putting the poor man’s job in jeopardy. I mean implications of racism are the absolute worst thing that anyone can ever suffer.
No, John Thullen, you don’t understand. The real cancel culture villains here are the media for putting the poor man’s job in jeopardy. I mean implications of racism are the absolute worst thing that anyone can ever suffer.
that Applebaum piece just makes me sad
Why, cleek? My bias assumes it’s because you are sad to see what regimes the US is being compared to, and how degraded and contaminated so many people are from their contact with the Trump administration, but I’m very possibly wrong about your reasons. Would you be willing to expand on them a bit?
that Applebaum piece just makes me sad
Why, cleek? My bias assumes it’s because you are sad to see what regimes the US is being compared to, and how degraded and contaminated so many people are from their contact with the Trump administration, but I’m very possibly wrong about your reasons. Would you be willing to expand on them a bit?
implications of racism are the absolute worst thing that anyone can ever suffer.
Ha! From what I’m seeing, there are a fair number who embrace the implication. They object to the word, but don’t appear to have the least objection to the characteristics. Or to other people knowing they have them — proud seems to be closer to their outlook. Pretty appalled.
implications of racism are the absolute worst thing that anyone can ever suffer.
Ha! From what I’m seeing, there are a fair number who embrace the implication. They object to the word, but don’t appear to have the least objection to the characteristics. Or to other people knowing they have them — proud seems to be closer to their outlook. Pretty appalled.
So Trump has suggested that flag burners spend a year in jail. But hey, it’s the left who wants too stifle free expression.
So Trump has suggested that flag burners spend a year in jail. But hey, it’s the left who wants too stifle free expression.
So Trump has suggested that flag burners spend a year in jail.
His rally was pathetic. Too bad he’s also killing people with his sad ranting. I wish we could return to the days when this kind of “thought process” belonged to the crazy uncle.
So Trump has suggested that flag burners spend a year in jail.
His rally was pathetic. Too bad he’s also killing people with his sad ranting. I wish we could return to the days when this kind of “thought process” belonged to the crazy uncle.
One has to maintain perspective in this time of madness. Please keep in mind that the McKinneys of this world would enthusiastically support a more polished GOP President, Congress, and Supreme Court that did the following, just like Trump is doing:
Destroyed unions.
Blunted action to fight global warming.
Did virtually nothing about institutional racism.
Pretty much abolish the EPA and take our economic relationships back to the Gilded Age.
Enforce the notion that money is speech, because, well, they have all the money.
Put children in cages.
Suppress the vote of those inclined to have different political views than they do (THIS IS THE REAL CANCEL CULTURE, FOLKS).
Work incessantly to promote the political advantages of those small numbers of people living in rural areas in order to maintain political power.
Castigate their political opposition as “the other”.
Use the concept of judicial “originalism” to hand down shamelessly activist court decisions.
Lie, cheat, and steal as a matter of course.
Worship at the feet of concentrated corporate and financial power.
People are people, my friends. Smash them.
One has to maintain perspective in this time of madness. Please keep in mind that the McKinneys of this world would enthusiastically support a more polished GOP President, Congress, and Supreme Court that did the following, just like Trump is doing:
Destroyed unions.
Blunted action to fight global warming.
Did virtually nothing about institutional racism.
Pretty much abolish the EPA and take our economic relationships back to the Gilded Age.
Enforce the notion that money is speech, because, well, they have all the money.
Put children in cages.
Suppress the vote of those inclined to have different political views than they do (THIS IS THE REAL CANCEL CULTURE, FOLKS).
Work incessantly to promote the political advantages of those small numbers of people living in rural areas in order to maintain political power.
Castigate their political opposition as “the other”.
Use the concept of judicial “originalism” to hand down shamelessly activist court decisions.
Lie, cheat, and steal as a matter of course.
Worship at the feet of concentrated corporate and financial power.
People are people, my friends. Smash them.
His rally was pathetic.
lol. A finely polished turd it eas.
His rally was pathetic.
lol. A finely polished turd it eas.
was
no more wine tonight, bobby.
was
no more wine tonight, bobby.
Ha! From what I’m seeing, there are a fair number who embrace the implication. They object to the word, but don’t appear to have the least objection to the characteristics. Or to other people knowing they have them — proud seems to be closer to their outlook. Pretty appalled.
That perfectly fits Austrian anti-semitism post-WW2. “I am not an anti-semite. I just can’t stand Jews.” Followed usually by charges of intolerance against the people who simply can’t see that there is not the faintest connection between anti-semitism and just hating Jews.
Ha! From what I’m seeing, there are a fair number who embrace the implication. They object to the word, but don’t appear to have the least objection to the characteristics. Or to other people knowing they have them — proud seems to be closer to their outlook. Pretty appalled.
That perfectly fits Austrian anti-semitism post-WW2. “I am not an anti-semite. I just can’t stand Jews.” Followed usually by charges of intolerance against the people who simply can’t see that there is not the faintest connection between anti-semitism and just hating Jews.
Russell’s Restaurant Owner Friend–this is closer to the CC culture but still not on point.
Haha, somehow I missed this one. I somehow forgot that any counter-examples had to be things that happened on a Tuesday afternoon, in July, via a Twitter account using a handle beginning with the letter ‘a’.
Remind me to not bother next time something like this comes up. Life’s too short to spend time jumping through the increasingly tiny hoops McK throws out there to avoid addressing the substance of any given issue.
Freaking lawyers.
Russell’s Restaurant Owner Friend–this is closer to the CC culture but still not on point.
Haha, somehow I missed this one. I somehow forgot that any counter-examples had to be things that happened on a Tuesday afternoon, in July, via a Twitter account using a handle beginning with the letter ‘a’.
Remind me to not bother next time something like this comes up. Life’s too short to spend time jumping through the increasingly tiny hoops McK throws out there to avoid addressing the substance of any given issue.
Freaking lawyers.
apropos, from Applebaum
Would you be willing to expand on them a bit?
it’s a compelling illustration of how stupid, short-sighted and venal humans are.
apropos, from Applebaum
Would you be willing to expand on them a bit?
it’s a compelling illustration of how stupid, short-sighted and venal humans are.
Life’s too short to spend time jumping through the increasingly tiny hoops McK throws out there to avoid addressing the substance of any given issue.
Not only that, he affirmatively supports cancelations as long as the right people are being canceled (Dixie Chicks, Kaepernick).
Kind of amazing that the guy who worked himself into hysterics over cancel culture – literally as bad as lynching! compulsory woke oaths! – is the only person on this thread supporting specific cancelations.
Life’s too short to spend time jumping through the increasingly tiny hoops McK throws out there to avoid addressing the substance of any given issue.
Not only that, he affirmatively supports cancelations as long as the right people are being canceled (Dixie Chicks, Kaepernick).
Kind of amazing that the guy who worked himself into hysterics over cancel culture – literally as bad as lynching! compulsory woke oaths! – is the only person on this thread supporting specific cancelations.
it’s a compelling illustration of how stupid, short-sighted and venal humans are.
Very true. Thanks, cleek.
it’s a compelling illustration of how stupid, short-sighted and venal humans are.
Very true. Thanks, cleek.
compulsory woke oaths!
so, a bit on the origins of the word ‘woke’.
it was first used in 1962, in a NYT essay, William Melvin Kelley, “If You’re Woke You Dig It”. but it didn’t really catch on.
it really took off when Erykah Badu used it in her 2008 song Master Teacher. the lyrics are a bit of call/response thing, and “I stay woke” (sung by Georgia Anne Muldrow) is always the response. Badu and Muldrow often get credit for inventing it, but they just popularized it.
i first heard that song in 2012. because i didn’t know what she was saying, i looked up the words. then i didn’t know what she meant by ‘woke’; though i could get the basic idea from context, i didn’t know for sure. i tried looking it up, but at the time there was literally nothing on the internet about it.
and now it’s the right’s new favorite insult.
because, again: nothing is quite as “2020 conservative” as seething prejudice against someone who cares about racial and social justice.
compulsory woke oaths!
so, a bit on the origins of the word ‘woke’.
it was first used in 1962, in a NYT essay, William Melvin Kelley, “If You’re Woke You Dig It”. but it didn’t really catch on.
it really took off when Erykah Badu used it in her 2008 song Master Teacher. the lyrics are a bit of call/response thing, and “I stay woke” (sung by Georgia Anne Muldrow) is always the response. Badu and Muldrow often get credit for inventing it, but they just popularized it.
i first heard that song in 2012. because i didn’t know what she was saying, i looked up the words. then i didn’t know what she meant by ‘woke’; though i could get the basic idea from context, i didn’t know for sure. i tried looking it up, but at the time there was literally nothing on the internet about it.
and now it’s the right’s new favorite insult.
because, again: nothing is quite as “2020 conservative” as seething prejudice against someone who cares about racial and social justice.
Rule: If we stop testing for examples of cancel culture in our own experiences, we’ll have less cancel culture and the whole thing will go away.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-says-he-asked-administration-to-slow-the-testing-downon-coronavirus
This is why Genghis Khan is the undisputed (well, if it’s undisputed, what’s all the fighting about?) champion of genocide and Mao, Hitler, Stalin, the Generals of World War I, and the Las Vegas shooter have mere asterisks next to their statistical contributions to the genre in the Baseball Genocide Body Count Record Book.
I think the Las Vegas shooter could have been one of the great ones myself, in sheer numbers over the shortest amount of time, but we had to stop counting after law enforcement moved in and cut his career short.
Certainly, there was, and is, enough stockpiled ammo in America to let his table run, but he was making Dylan Roof look bad by comparison, so Ixnay the Aughterslay.
We see a similar peculiar “logic” applied to the death toll from Corona-19: Hey, we don’t lift an eyebrow over 35,000 annual deaths by automobile, or the 30,000 annual deaths by gun, or the 50,000 annual death toll from the regular everyday flu, so why the excitement over this Covid-19 hoax? Besides, it culls the heard of the infirm and the rest of us should be OK, although out some Kleenex and Tylenol, I’ll have you bloody well know.
Then, some busybody bleeding heart in the back row raises a tentative hand, and through her face mask suggests various measures to lower or ameliorate the suffering body counts in all of the categories above, including the pandemic, and the usual suspects wave her off by saying, “Yes, yes, well alright, I’ll give you the aqueducts, but think of the cost to our freedoms .. er I mean, taxes, of all of that rigmarole! Better to let sleeping dog lie, with maybe a knee on their windpipes so we don’t encourage them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ozEZxOsanY
Regarding Applebaum, Trump and Bolton will hang side by side, split screened with Victor Orban’s execution (the latter has now approved of teh EU’s … and Soros’ .. plan to bail him out economically) but Ryan, that clever get, has sneaked through the back door again, this time unelected, and family in tow this time as he drops all pretense, except for the batting of his baby blues at prospective victims, and is living high in his hated Washington D.C as he awaits his next turn at carrying out the ruination of Social Security and Medicare following the detailed instructions laid out in his genocide manual, “Genghis Shrugged” (Or: How Did Dagny Taggart’s High Heel Imprints Get All Over These Corpses?”).
Ryan is Evil like Satan in the Old Testament … or like Dickens’ slithering, oily Uriah Heep … patiently and unctuously awaiting his opportunity, ingratiating, and oddly, hoveringly charming.
I can feel my own brand of venality rising like a gorge so back to lurking for awhile.
Rule: If we stop testing for examples of cancel culture in our own experiences, we’ll have less cancel culture and the whole thing will go away.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-says-he-asked-administration-to-slow-the-testing-downon-coronavirus
This is why Genghis Khan is the undisputed (well, if it’s undisputed, what’s all the fighting about?) champion of genocide and Mao, Hitler, Stalin, the Generals of World War I, and the Las Vegas shooter have mere asterisks next to their statistical contributions to the genre in the Baseball Genocide Body Count Record Book.
I think the Las Vegas shooter could have been one of the great ones myself, in sheer numbers over the shortest amount of time, but we had to stop counting after law enforcement moved in and cut his career short.
Certainly, there was, and is, enough stockpiled ammo in America to let his table run, but he was making Dylan Roof look bad by comparison, so Ixnay the Aughterslay.
We see a similar peculiar “logic” applied to the death toll from Corona-19: Hey, we don’t lift an eyebrow over 35,000 annual deaths by automobile, or the 30,000 annual deaths by gun, or the 50,000 annual death toll from the regular everyday flu, so why the excitement over this Covid-19 hoax? Besides, it culls the heard of the infirm and the rest of us should be OK, although out some Kleenex and Tylenol, I’ll have you bloody well know.
Then, some busybody bleeding heart in the back row raises a tentative hand, and through her face mask suggests various measures to lower or ameliorate the suffering body counts in all of the categories above, including the pandemic, and the usual suspects wave her off by saying, “Yes, yes, well alright, I’ll give you the aqueducts, but think of the cost to our freedoms .. er I mean, taxes, of all of that rigmarole! Better to let sleeping dog lie, with maybe a knee on their windpipes so we don’t encourage them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ozEZxOsanY
Regarding Applebaum, Trump and Bolton will hang side by side, split screened with Victor Orban’s execution (the latter has now approved of teh EU’s … and Soros’ .. plan to bail him out economically) but Ryan, that clever get, has sneaked through the back door again, this time unelected, and family in tow this time as he drops all pretense, except for the batting of his baby blues at prospective victims, and is living high in his hated Washington D.C as he awaits his next turn at carrying out the ruination of Social Security and Medicare following the detailed instructions laid out in his genocide manual, “Genghis Shrugged” (Or: How Did Dagny Taggart’s High Heel Imprints Get All Over These Corpses?”).
Ryan is Evil like Satan in the Old Testament … or like Dickens’ slithering, oily Uriah Heep … patiently and unctuously awaiting his opportunity, ingratiating, and oddly, hoveringly charming.
I can feel my own brand of venality rising like a gorge so back to lurking for awhile.
“herd”, or so I hear.
“herd”, or so I hear.
Remind me to not bother next time something like this comes up.
If I could figure out a way to code it above the comment box, I would.
Remind me to not bother next time something like this comes up.
If I could figure out a way to code it above the comment box, I would.
An article that touches both on an aspect of racism in America and cancel culture.
“We quickly discovered that if you’re the white parents of an adopted black child, and you’re in the public eye at all, men and women will viciously criticize you for having the audacity to believe that you can raise your kid. At times, the criticism was direct and personal—most of it directed at my wife. It was one thing to face hostile comments on blogs or random tweets. It was another to face angry direct messages and sometimes-tense personal encounters in public. Family and friends were aghast. Look at what the left does and says to loving families, we remarked to one another. Look at what they believe about faithful Christians.
Then, sometime around the summer of 2015, we began to notice a shift. The attacks on our family came less and less from the left, and increasingly from the so-called alt-right—a vicious movement of Trump-supporting white nationalists who loathe multiracial families. They despise international adoption. They call it “race-cucking your family” or “raising the enemy.” Heaven help you if they find you online, and find us they did. In part because I criticized their movement directly—and in part because I refused to support Donald Trump in 2016—they came after us with a vengeance.”
America Soured on My Multiracial Family: When my wife and I adopted our daughter from Ethiopia in 2010, we did so full of hope. In the years since, we’ve faced ugliness that has robbed us of our optimism—and left us fearful for the future of our country.
An article that touches both on an aspect of racism in America and cancel culture.
“We quickly discovered that if you’re the white parents of an adopted black child, and you’re in the public eye at all, men and women will viciously criticize you for having the audacity to believe that you can raise your kid. At times, the criticism was direct and personal—most of it directed at my wife. It was one thing to face hostile comments on blogs or random tweets. It was another to face angry direct messages and sometimes-tense personal encounters in public. Family and friends were aghast. Look at what the left does and says to loving families, we remarked to one another. Look at what they believe about faithful Christians.
Then, sometime around the summer of 2015, we began to notice a shift. The attacks on our family came less and less from the left, and increasingly from the so-called alt-right—a vicious movement of Trump-supporting white nationalists who loathe multiracial families. They despise international adoption. They call it “race-cucking your family” or “raising the enemy.” Heaven help you if they find you online, and find us they did. In part because I criticized their movement directly—and in part because I refused to support Donald Trump in 2016—they came after us with a vengeance.”
America Soured on My Multiracial Family: When my wife and I adopted our daughter from Ethiopia in 2010, we did so full of hope. In the years since, we’ve faced ugliness that has robbed us of our optimism—and left us fearful for the future of our country.
Remind me to not bother next time something like this comes up.
I’d rather not leave this as my last word in this thread, it’s stated more harshly than I’d like.
I appreciate McK’s participation here and appreciate the perspective he brings.
I understand that narrowing the topic of conversation to the point that only the aspects of the answer you wish to address are ‘relevant’, and so that only the answers you wish to elicit are appropriate, is common lawyerly practice.
But this isn’t a courtroom, and the net effect of applying that technique to a context like this ends up feeling like argument in bad faith.
Which is frustrating.
Drawing distinctions like “yes, your friend lost her life savings, her business, and her home, all due to harassment over a political opinion not even expressed by her, but she’s self-employed, so that doesn’t count” is not really a good faith argument when the overall topic is people using social media to make other’s people’s lives miserable.
I’m pretty sure the average, unbiased reader would agree.
Make of it what you will.
Remind me to not bother next time something like this comes up.
I’d rather not leave this as my last word in this thread, it’s stated more harshly than I’d like.
I appreciate McK’s participation here and appreciate the perspective he brings.
I understand that narrowing the topic of conversation to the point that only the aspects of the answer you wish to address are ‘relevant’, and so that only the answers you wish to elicit are appropriate, is common lawyerly practice.
But this isn’t a courtroom, and the net effect of applying that technique to a context like this ends up feeling like argument in bad faith.
Which is frustrating.
Drawing distinctions like “yes, your friend lost her life savings, her business, and her home, all due to harassment over a political opinion not even expressed by her, but she’s self-employed, so that doesn’t count” is not really a good faith argument when the overall topic is people using social media to make other’s people’s lives miserable.
I’m pretty sure the average, unbiased reader would agree.
Make of it what you will.
I understand that narrowing the topic of conversation to the point that only the aspects of the answer you wish to address are ‘relevant’, and so that only the answers you wish to elicit are appropriate, is common lawyerly practice.
Just want to clarify what “relevance” is in a courtroom:
It’s not about technique or legal shenanigans. In a legal case, there are certain factual and legal issues that are set to be decided by a judge or jury. Allowing witnesses or lawyers to bloviate about whatever they’re interested in doesn’t shed light on the matters (sometimes very technical) to be considered. For example, the Federal Rules of Evidence require that evidence meet a relevancy requirement. It’s essential in a courtroom to speak to the issues being litigated.
McKinney is not in a courtroom, and his objections as to relevance aren’t relevant to this forum. I’m sure he knows that, and isn’t trying to be lawyerly (because he’s not being lawyerly). He just seems to believe that his examples are the only ones that count.
I understand that narrowing the topic of conversation to the point that only the aspects of the answer you wish to address are ‘relevant’, and so that only the answers you wish to elicit are appropriate, is common lawyerly practice.
Just want to clarify what “relevance” is in a courtroom:
It’s not about technique or legal shenanigans. In a legal case, there are certain factual and legal issues that are set to be decided by a judge or jury. Allowing witnesses or lawyers to bloviate about whatever they’re interested in doesn’t shed light on the matters (sometimes very technical) to be considered. For example, the Federal Rules of Evidence require that evidence meet a relevancy requirement. It’s essential in a courtroom to speak to the issues being litigated.
McKinney is not in a courtroom, and his objections as to relevance aren’t relevant to this forum. I’m sure he knows that, and isn’t trying to be lawyerly (because he’s not being lawyerly). He just seems to believe that his examples are the only ones that count.
Charles, whomever goes after adoptive parents, from whatever political or religious perspective or whatever motivation, is depraved.
Maybe Americans aren’t so entitled to their loathsome opinions as they seem to believe.
Maybe a plurality of us are merely becoming depraved judgmental assholes and believe some markings on a piece of paper, the Constitution, and/or the Bible, entitle us to voice our judgement unbidded and without license or censure, and social media, with its anonymous practitioners has merely amplified a tendency that used to be confined to small-town gossips, mean 13-year-olds in heat, and crazy uncles with a snootful and their flies undone.
We’re lucky the Constitution didn’t spell out a right to yell fire in a crowded theater (Americans seem to think having a crowd assembled with unmarked exits when they yell “Fire!” is exactly the point) and the right to public urination, because political parties would run campaigns scourging any gummint regulation of such practices and proclaiming those rights’ derivations from almighty God.
I’m guilty as charged, (I should talk, and the fact that I do is in fact the problem) which is why I plan to start a petition to name and enforce the entire calendar year of 2021, National Shut the F@ck Up Year.
We’ll call it the Citizens Silenced case. A national vow of silence, silently vowed. It will be illegal for the Supreme Court to even write opinions about it, because who cares what they think.
If it goes well, we’ll make it permanent.
All future “listening tours” will turn up nothing but crickets. No longer will we have to hear some patronizing get tell us “I hear what you are saying”, because “saying” on either end will be verboten.
Maybe next we’ll go after the stink eye, the side eye, leers, and dirty looks.
And by the way, money, the loudest voice in the room, shuts up too.
Got an opinion? Stow it. No more calls for comment.
Monastery rules. A bell for matins and that’s it.
So say what we have to say now and get it off our chests.
We’ve got a little more than six months to shut our traps.
Loophole: If you wish to speak or otherwise express yourself and give an opinion, you have to sing it acapella, and it had better be in tune.
You have to lurk in tune as well. I’m going to practice.
Charles, whomever goes after adoptive parents, from whatever political or religious perspective or whatever motivation, is depraved.
Maybe Americans aren’t so entitled to their loathsome opinions as they seem to believe.
Maybe a plurality of us are merely becoming depraved judgmental assholes and believe some markings on a piece of paper, the Constitution, and/or the Bible, entitle us to voice our judgement unbidded and without license or censure, and social media, with its anonymous practitioners has merely amplified a tendency that used to be confined to small-town gossips, mean 13-year-olds in heat, and crazy uncles with a snootful and their flies undone.
We’re lucky the Constitution didn’t spell out a right to yell fire in a crowded theater (Americans seem to think having a crowd assembled with unmarked exits when they yell “Fire!” is exactly the point) and the right to public urination, because political parties would run campaigns scourging any gummint regulation of such practices and proclaiming those rights’ derivations from almighty God.
I’m guilty as charged, (I should talk, and the fact that I do is in fact the problem) which is why I plan to start a petition to name and enforce the entire calendar year of 2021, National Shut the F@ck Up Year.
We’ll call it the Citizens Silenced case. A national vow of silence, silently vowed. It will be illegal for the Supreme Court to even write opinions about it, because who cares what they think.
If it goes well, we’ll make it permanent.
All future “listening tours” will turn up nothing but crickets. No longer will we have to hear some patronizing get tell us “I hear what you are saying”, because “saying” on either end will be verboten.
Maybe next we’ll go after the stink eye, the side eye, leers, and dirty looks.
And by the way, money, the loudest voice in the room, shuts up too.
Got an opinion? Stow it. No more calls for comment.
Monastery rules. A bell for matins and that’s it.
So say what we have to say now and get it off our chests.
We’ve got a little more than six months to shut our traps.
Loophole: If you wish to speak or otherwise express yourself and give an opinion, you have to sing it acapella, and it had better be in tune.
You have to lurk in tune as well. I’m going to practice.
https://www.change.org/p/philadelphia-replace-the-columbus-statue-with-iverson-stepping-over-tyron-lue/psf/share?source_location=combo_psf&psf_variant=combo&share_intent=1
I just signed this. My reasons are as follows—
1. If he finds out about it, it would upset Rod Dreher.
2. If he finds out about it, Rod will write another hysterical screed about how these modern day iconoclasts are a harbinger of the soft totalitarianism that will destroy civilization. He will quote another five paragraphs from his upcoming book linking this to Eastern European communism, because, really, what isn’t related to Eastern European communism?
This will amuse me.
3. If the statue goes up, rightwing iconoclasts can get their revenge by toppling it. I won’t care. It will keep them out of trouble.
https://www.change.org/p/philadelphia-replace-the-columbus-statue-with-iverson-stepping-over-tyron-lue/psf/share?source_location=combo_psf&psf_variant=combo&share_intent=1
I just signed this. My reasons are as follows—
1. If he finds out about it, it would upset Rod Dreher.
2. If he finds out about it, Rod will write another hysterical screed about how these modern day iconoclasts are a harbinger of the soft totalitarianism that will destroy civilization. He will quote another five paragraphs from his upcoming book linking this to Eastern European communism, because, really, what isn’t related to Eastern European communism?
This will amuse me.
3. If the statue goes up, rightwing iconoclasts can get their revenge by toppling it. I won’t care. It will keep them out of trouble.
Link didn’t go to the petition. Maybe this one will —
https://www.change.org/p/philadelphia-replace-the-columbus-statue-with-iverson-stepping-over-tyron-lue
Link didn’t go to the petition. Maybe this one will —
https://www.change.org/p/philadelphia-replace-the-columbus-statue-with-iverson-stepping-over-tyron-lue
He just seems to believe that his examples are the only ones that count.
Does he argue like that because he’s a lawyer? Or did he become a lawyer because he argues like that? No idea…
btw I enthusiastically support the petition Donald put up. I’d add a 4th reason, cause I’m getting sick of reading about Michael Jordan.
He just seems to believe that his examples are the only ones that count.
Does he argue like that because he’s a lawyer? Or did he become a lawyer because he argues like that? No idea…
btw I enthusiastically support the petition Donald put up. I’d add a 4th reason, cause I’m getting sick of reading about Michael Jordan.
Michael Jordan, Conan the Barbarian of the NBA…
Michael Jordan, Conan the Barbarian of the NBA…
I actually have mixed feelings about statue toppling, but Dreher is being such a melodramatic twit. His view is that Jefferson and other slaveowners are complicated figures, which is fair, but leftist statue topplers are pure evil. There seems to be a bias there somewhere.
Columbus, though, was considered brutal even by the standards of his time, or so I have read. Put up a statue of Bartolome de Las Casas ( sp?).
Or Iverson. Or both.
I actually have mixed feelings about statue toppling, but Dreher is being such a melodramatic twit. His view is that Jefferson and other slaveowners are complicated figures, which is fair, but leftist statue topplers are pure evil. There seems to be a bias there somewhere.
Columbus, though, was considered brutal even by the standards of his time, or so I have read. Put up a statue of Bartolome de Las Casas ( sp?).
Or Iverson. Or both.
Hungary collected many of its Soviet-era statues into a weird park with creepy music playing…
Hungary collected many of its Soviet-era statues into a weird park with creepy music playing…
Orban’s statue will join them soon.
Donald, your characterization of Dreher is exactly as mine, but more on point.
Orban’s statue will join them soon.
Donald, your characterization of Dreher is exactly as mine, but more on point.
I’d rather not leave this as my last word in this thread, it’s stated more harshly than I’d like.
I appreciate McK’s participation here and appreciate the perspective he brings.
First, thanks for this and second, let my try to show why I draw the distinctions I do and you can decide whether they make sense.
What is ‘cancelling’ in this context? Is it any form of rejection, a concept so broad and amorphous that it has no meaning or can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean at whatever time and under whatever circumstances?
Most of my examples–all I think–involve either a private citizen or a historical/dead person, neither of whom can speak for themselves. The ‘Canceler’s’ demand that a third person either take some action against the Cancelee or that we all acquiesce in their act of cancellation.
Put differently, a group decides to take action against a person using that person’s employer or others to inflict harm on that person.
I distinguish ‘cancellation’ from most other forms of rejection because, as free individuals, we each have the right to disagree, to reject, to agree, to accept or any combination thereof pretty much anything life throws at us that isn’t a legal obligation. This is particularly true of political and policy matters.
When someone puts themselves or their beliefs on public display, they are inviting judgment. They most likely prefer acceptance, or tolerance, or what have you, but the act of putting it out there invites the full range of response. For example, Tucker Carlson is not being cancelled in my view because people are asking his sponsors to pull their support. He gets his sponsors by being popular. He loses his sponsors by pissing off too many people in a bad way. Live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.
Kaepernick put it out there and got smacked. Too bad. I am not obliged to accept his viewpoint or the way he chose to express it. I’m not cancelling him. I’m exercising my right to ignore him.
For the many here who disagree with me, none of you are cancelling me. Disagreeing, personalizing the discussion, what have you, is not cancellation. It’s disagreement. Some do it better than others.
An act of cancellation would be to try to influence others to disassociate from me.
Your restaurant owner friend was judged, unfairly obviously, by her daughter’s behavior and, as far as I can tell, that judgment was manifested by folks no long patronizing her restaurant. Shitty, but no different than a person deciding to go to her restaurant because of admiration for the daughter’s position. Why do so many businesses hang American flags wherever they can? Want to go out of business? Hang a flag upside down or put up a sign that says “police officers not welcome”. If you offer a public service, as I said previously, keep your political and religious views to yourself.
Many of the lawyers who work for me are politically active in one party or the other. They all understand the line between attending meetings, getting out the vote, putting out yard signs and making statements that are objectively divisive.
A very close cousin, if not a sibling, to CC is straight up online bullying. The same peeps who like CC like to bully as well.
This all got started with the question of cultural appropriation–again, an artifact of some subset of the Woke left (no offense intended, just as I’m sure no one intends to insult me when they refer to conservatives)–about which I expressed my views and then made the further, logical in my view, observation that accusations of cultural appropriation are often the basis for instituting a cancellation campaign.
I’m not a fan of bullies or ganging up or hounding people into submission. I’m perfectly fine–as my twelve plus years here at ObWi should prove–going toe to toe on whatever issues catches my attention at a point when I have the time to engage.
Donald–I’m not down with statue toppling of any kind. If a statue needs to come down, it should be done legally and by a vote. Otherwise, it’s criminal vandalism. Just because the vandal’s views line up with yours or mine doesn’t change the criminality of the act.
LJ, I think you’ll find a link at my 6/20, 9:55 comment. Assuming you’ve read this far.
Russell, again, thanks. Nicely done and much appreciated.
I’d rather not leave this as my last word in this thread, it’s stated more harshly than I’d like.
I appreciate McK’s participation here and appreciate the perspective he brings.
First, thanks for this and second, let my try to show why I draw the distinctions I do and you can decide whether they make sense.
What is ‘cancelling’ in this context? Is it any form of rejection, a concept so broad and amorphous that it has no meaning or can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean at whatever time and under whatever circumstances?
Most of my examples–all I think–involve either a private citizen or a historical/dead person, neither of whom can speak for themselves. The ‘Canceler’s’ demand that a third person either take some action against the Cancelee or that we all acquiesce in their act of cancellation.
Put differently, a group decides to take action against a person using that person’s employer or others to inflict harm on that person.
I distinguish ‘cancellation’ from most other forms of rejection because, as free individuals, we each have the right to disagree, to reject, to agree, to accept or any combination thereof pretty much anything life throws at us that isn’t a legal obligation. This is particularly true of political and policy matters.
When someone puts themselves or their beliefs on public display, they are inviting judgment. They most likely prefer acceptance, or tolerance, or what have you, but the act of putting it out there invites the full range of response. For example, Tucker Carlson is not being cancelled in my view because people are asking his sponsors to pull their support. He gets his sponsors by being popular. He loses his sponsors by pissing off too many people in a bad way. Live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.
Kaepernick put it out there and got smacked. Too bad. I am not obliged to accept his viewpoint or the way he chose to express it. I’m not cancelling him. I’m exercising my right to ignore him.
For the many here who disagree with me, none of you are cancelling me. Disagreeing, personalizing the discussion, what have you, is not cancellation. It’s disagreement. Some do it better than others.
An act of cancellation would be to try to influence others to disassociate from me.
Your restaurant owner friend was judged, unfairly obviously, by her daughter’s behavior and, as far as I can tell, that judgment was manifested by folks no long patronizing her restaurant. Shitty, but no different than a person deciding to go to her restaurant because of admiration for the daughter’s position. Why do so many businesses hang American flags wherever they can? Want to go out of business? Hang a flag upside down or put up a sign that says “police officers not welcome”. If you offer a public service, as I said previously, keep your political and religious views to yourself.
Many of the lawyers who work for me are politically active in one party or the other. They all understand the line between attending meetings, getting out the vote, putting out yard signs and making statements that are objectively divisive.
A very close cousin, if not a sibling, to CC is straight up online bullying. The same peeps who like CC like to bully as well.
This all got started with the question of cultural appropriation–again, an artifact of some subset of the Woke left (no offense intended, just as I’m sure no one intends to insult me when they refer to conservatives)–about which I expressed my views and then made the further, logical in my view, observation that accusations of cultural appropriation are often the basis for instituting a cancellation campaign.
I’m not a fan of bullies or ganging up or hounding people into submission. I’m perfectly fine–as my twelve plus years here at ObWi should prove–going toe to toe on whatever issues catches my attention at a point when I have the time to engage.
Donald–I’m not down with statue toppling of any kind. If a statue needs to come down, it should be done legally and by a vote. Otherwise, it’s criminal vandalism. Just because the vandal’s views line up with yours or mine doesn’t change the criminality of the act.
LJ, I think you’ll find a link at my 6/20, 9:55 comment. Assuming you’ve read this far.
Russell, again, thanks. Nicely done and much appreciated.
Columbus, though, was considered brutal even by the standards of his time, or so I have read.
Not to mention delusional about the size of the world, which was well know by his day. Although, for some, I suppose a willingness to simply ignore inconvenient details about reality would be considered a plus. Make him part of the chior, as it were.
Columbus, though, was considered brutal even by the standards of his time, or so I have read.
Not to mention delusional about the size of the world, which was well know by his day. Although, for some, I suppose a willingness to simply ignore inconvenient details about reality would be considered a plus. Make him part of the chior, as it were.
“ I’m not down with statue toppling of any kind. If a statue needs to come down, it should be done legally and by a vote”
I tend to agree with this, but also wonder if completely legal protests always get the attention they should. If people are going to break the law while protesting, statue toppling seems like the most innocuous form.
Though on the third hand ( or gripping hand, to use the old Pournelle Niven analogy) I find the Dreher hysteria completely over the top and borderline ugly. I actually like Dreher when he is at his best ( which might be one post in 20) but right now he is in the midst of a moral panic-plus he has a book to sell. I might like him a bit better than John does, because I do learn a few things I don’t learn from reading lefty sources. I heard about the Washington Post cancel culture story from Dreher. I thought it was disgusting. And occasionally Dreher really tries to rise above his own biases, which is rare for anyone. He can be very self critical. But right now he is wallowing in his worst tendencies.
So I reluctantly concede that statue toppling is a bad idea, but it should be criticized the way you did it— it breaks the law. Dreher goes well beyond that. He is pitching the SJW left as the second coming of the totalitarian left, pure evil. But he thinks we should be nuanced in our judgments of slaveowners and brutal police. I don’t respect this.
I also don’t like cancel culture. I am not sure how bad a problem it is. As others have pointed out, every part of the political spectrum does this. Heck, I see it within the left and not just leftists vs centrist libs, but much more fine grained. I can think of at least five groups of people on tge Twitter left which hate each other. Maybe more if I thought about it longer.
“ I’m not down with statue toppling of any kind. If a statue needs to come down, it should be done legally and by a vote”
I tend to agree with this, but also wonder if completely legal protests always get the attention they should. If people are going to break the law while protesting, statue toppling seems like the most innocuous form.
Though on the third hand ( or gripping hand, to use the old Pournelle Niven analogy) I find the Dreher hysteria completely over the top and borderline ugly. I actually like Dreher when he is at his best ( which might be one post in 20) but right now he is in the midst of a moral panic-plus he has a book to sell. I might like him a bit better than John does, because I do learn a few things I don’t learn from reading lefty sources. I heard about the Washington Post cancel culture story from Dreher. I thought it was disgusting. And occasionally Dreher really tries to rise above his own biases, which is rare for anyone. He can be very self critical. But right now he is wallowing in his worst tendencies.
So I reluctantly concede that statue toppling is a bad idea, but it should be criticized the way you did it— it breaks the law. Dreher goes well beyond that. He is pitching the SJW left as the second coming of the totalitarian left, pure evil. But he thinks we should be nuanced in our judgments of slaveowners and brutal police. I don’t respect this.
I also don’t like cancel culture. I am not sure how bad a problem it is. As others have pointed out, every part of the political spectrum does this. Heck, I see it within the left and not just leftists vs centrist libs, but much more fine grained. I can think of at least five groups of people on tge Twitter left which hate each other. Maybe more if I thought about it longer.
A very close cousin, if not a sibling, to CC is straight up online bullying. The same peeps who like CC like to bully as well.
An interesting related phenomenon is that probably the most common incidence of online bullying is done by misogynist men against women who have the temerity to raise their heads above the parapet in any way whatsoever. I would never claim that there are no lefty misogynists, but since feminism is a foundational doctrine of the “woke” left, I would guess that the extreme misogynist abuse many public women face (rape, murder and mutilation threats for example) is more likely to come from the right than the left. It would be interesting to know if any research has been done into this, cross-referencing for example stated political affiliations online with misogynist abuse.
A very close cousin, if not a sibling, to CC is straight up online bullying. The same peeps who like CC like to bully as well.
An interesting related phenomenon is that probably the most common incidence of online bullying is done by misogynist men against women who have the temerity to raise their heads above the parapet in any way whatsoever. I would never claim that there are no lefty misogynists, but since feminism is a foundational doctrine of the “woke” left, I would guess that the extreme misogynist abuse many public women face (rape, murder and mutilation threats for example) is more likely to come from the right than the left. It would be interesting to know if any research has been done into this, cross-referencing for example stated political affiliations online with misogynist abuse.
McT, I have a comment at (according to my view) June 20, 2020 at 05:04 PM that begins with
Well, getting back to normal I see.
Now it is possible that the time markers are adjusted for time zones, so if I missed a comment of yours that came _before_ my comment, you are welcome to point it out to me.
But I actually don’t find any link in _any_ of your comments. I don’t know if you think you actually posted a link or if this is a Dominic Cummings move. I would like to think that you are just confused, but I’m not really sure. As you wrote:
I’m old, near retirement, so fear of giving PC offense doesn’t play a role in my social calculus.
I’m not sure why this is something that one should be proud of, but I’m in Japan, and from the news I read, your approach certainly seems to becoming the norm in the US.
I did go back to your first comment in this thread because you say above
This all got started with the question of cultural appropriation–again, an artifact of some subset of the Woke left (no offense intended, just as I’m sure no one intends to insult me when they refer to conservatives)
Here’s the close of your first comment in this thread
So, for me, like most of the other SJW/Woke devices for short-cutting substantive discussion or casting out (cancelling) the heretics, “cultural appropriation” is 99% BS.
Perhaps your most recent formulation is how you remember it, but the words on the screen say something different. ‘I’m not intending to give offense, I’m just old’ is not how I read that. Others can tell me if I’m wrong.
But my feeling is that if you put up a comment like that, it is, as Aussies like to say, playing the shit-stirrer. If that’s the role you want to play here, that’s your decision. Perhaps you are thinking that you are adding some deep understanding that we have never even considered (like ‘gee, don’t you think that things could go to far?’), but I’m pretty sure that people here have considered, especially since they responded with a wealth of examples, a lot of the ramifications and problems. Engage with that, and I’m here all day.
But looking at this thread, it is a typical McT shitshow. I don’t speak for anyone else here, but I don’t appreciate it and lately, I’ve feel that I’ve reached a point where I don’t really care if it hurts your feelings or not. It’s not age, it’s just fed up-ness.
You are responsible for how you argue. If you don’t want to, or can’t change, that’s your problem, not mine. I would, however, point out that it will probably give people the impression that Russell got when he wrote this.
But this isn’t a courtroom, and the net effect of applying that technique to a context like this ends up feeling like argument in bad faith.
McT, I have a comment at (according to my view) June 20, 2020 at 05:04 PM that begins with
Well, getting back to normal I see.
Now it is possible that the time markers are adjusted for time zones, so if I missed a comment of yours that came _before_ my comment, you are welcome to point it out to me.
But I actually don’t find any link in _any_ of your comments. I don’t know if you think you actually posted a link or if this is a Dominic Cummings move. I would like to think that you are just confused, but I’m not really sure. As you wrote:
I’m old, near retirement, so fear of giving PC offense doesn’t play a role in my social calculus.
I’m not sure why this is something that one should be proud of, but I’m in Japan, and from the news I read, your approach certainly seems to becoming the norm in the US.
I did go back to your first comment in this thread because you say above
This all got started with the question of cultural appropriation–again, an artifact of some subset of the Woke left (no offense intended, just as I’m sure no one intends to insult me when they refer to conservatives)
Here’s the close of your first comment in this thread
So, for me, like most of the other SJW/Woke devices for short-cutting substantive discussion or casting out (cancelling) the heretics, “cultural appropriation” is 99% BS.
Perhaps your most recent formulation is how you remember it, but the words on the screen say something different. ‘I’m not intending to give offense, I’m just old’ is not how I read that. Others can tell me if I’m wrong.
But my feeling is that if you put up a comment like that, it is, as Aussies like to say, playing the shit-stirrer. If that’s the role you want to play here, that’s your decision. Perhaps you are thinking that you are adding some deep understanding that we have never even considered (like ‘gee, don’t you think that things could go to far?’), but I’m pretty sure that people here have considered, especially since they responded with a wealth of examples, a lot of the ramifications and problems. Engage with that, and I’m here all day.
But looking at this thread, it is a typical McT shitshow. I don’t speak for anyone else here, but I don’t appreciate it and lately, I’ve feel that I’ve reached a point where I don’t really care if it hurts your feelings or not. It’s not age, it’s just fed up-ness.
You are responsible for how you argue. If you don’t want to, or can’t change, that’s your problem, not mine. I would, however, point out that it will probably give people the impression that Russell got when he wrote this.
But this isn’t a courtroom, and the net effect of applying that technique to a context like this ends up feeling like argument in bad faith.
“ He is pitching the SJW left as the second coming of the totalitarian left, pure evil. But he thinks we should be nuanced in our judgments of slaveowners and brutal police. I don’t respect this.”
Clarifying— I don’t respect being nuanced towards slaveowners while demonizing the SJW crowd.
“ He is pitching the SJW left as the second coming of the totalitarian left, pure evil. But he thinks we should be nuanced in our judgments of slaveowners and brutal police. I don’t respect this.”
Clarifying— I don’t respect being nuanced towards slaveowners while demonizing the SJW crowd.
My grandfather, in Middletown, Ohio, had a lawn jockey lighting the way on the sidewalks leading to the driveways at both of his homes.
When I was little, it was part of the scenery.
When I was in late high school and college (it was there until the house was sold after my grandmother died years later), I gave it a wide berth and was embarrassed by it.
I didn’t tear it down but I remember mentioning to my mother couldn’t we maybe put it at the back of the garage at least.
I don’t know what became of it, whether it was sold with the house or somehow went in the estate sale.
I think the Confederate statues and Columbus-type statues should be removed, but legally as McKinney stipulates. Place them in a park or museum of their own. I would visit them in the same vein as I visited the Torture Museum in Amsterdam, with disgust and contempt.
Man’s inhumanity to man should not be veiled.
Especially from the aerial judgement of pigeons.
On the other hand, I get the overdo urge to tear these things down. In the case of the Confederate statuary, they should not have been erected in the first place, because we know why they were.
If you read about the horrific slaughter of, in particular, black union soldiers, but white Union soldiers as well by Confederate troops led by Nathan Bedford Forrest at the Battle of Fort Pillow, Tennessee, if his statue near Nashville hasn’t been toppled yet, I’m game for driving down there with chains and a four by four with a hitch to knock that sucker over.
Does Cambodia have statues erected of Pol Pot in front of every optometrist’s store?
The Confederate statues are to African Americans what Saddam’s statuary was to Iraqi Shi’as.
Statues in America have been toppled before, by our heroes, and for such quintessentially American practical reasons .. to be melted down to make bullets.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-history-behind-the-king-george-iii-statue-meme/
Remember, the Confederacy didn’t even wait to tear down Lincoln’s statue. They murdered the flesh and blood item.
Give him time. Trump will topple the Statue of Liberty, and the confederate statue lovers late of the pathetic Tulsa rally will cheer like drunken louts.
My grandfather, in Middletown, Ohio, had a lawn jockey lighting the way on the sidewalks leading to the driveways at both of his homes.
When I was little, it was part of the scenery.
When I was in late high school and college (it was there until the house was sold after my grandmother died years later), I gave it a wide berth and was embarrassed by it.
I didn’t tear it down but I remember mentioning to my mother couldn’t we maybe put it at the back of the garage at least.
I don’t know what became of it, whether it was sold with the house or somehow went in the estate sale.
I think the Confederate statues and Columbus-type statues should be removed, but legally as McKinney stipulates. Place them in a park or museum of their own. I would visit them in the same vein as I visited the Torture Museum in Amsterdam, with disgust and contempt.
Man’s inhumanity to man should not be veiled.
Especially from the aerial judgement of pigeons.
On the other hand, I get the overdo urge to tear these things down. In the case of the Confederate statuary, they should not have been erected in the first place, because we know why they were.
If you read about the horrific slaughter of, in particular, black union soldiers, but white Union soldiers as well by Confederate troops led by Nathan Bedford Forrest at the Battle of Fort Pillow, Tennessee, if his statue near Nashville hasn’t been toppled yet, I’m game for driving down there with chains and a four by four with a hitch to knock that sucker over.
Does Cambodia have statues erected of Pol Pot in front of every optometrist’s store?
The Confederate statues are to African Americans what Saddam’s statuary was to Iraqi Shi’as.
Statues in America have been toppled before, by our heroes, and for such quintessentially American practical reasons .. to be melted down to make bullets.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-history-behind-the-king-george-iii-statue-meme/
Remember, the Confederacy didn’t even wait to tear down Lincoln’s statue. They murdered the flesh and blood item.
Give him time. Trump will topple the Statue of Liberty, and the confederate statue lovers late of the pathetic Tulsa rally will cheer like drunken louts.
lj, FWIW, I searched McKinney’s link and did actually find it, from recollection quite far above his comment, and so you might have missed it. And again, and FWIW, I think far from saying “I don’t intend to give offense, I’m just old” is not remotely what he’s saying, he’s saying he’s old so he doesn’t give a fuck if he causes PC offense (although you’re right that he specifies that his formulation “the Woke left” is not intended to be offensive, comparing it to the ObWi commentariat using the term “conservatives”, which is rather funny given his history of extraordinary rants against it).
lj, FWIW, I searched McKinney’s link and did actually find it, from recollection quite far above his comment, and so you might have missed it. And again, and FWIW, I think far from saying “I don’t intend to give offense, I’m just old” is not remotely what he’s saying, he’s saying he’s old so he doesn’t give a fuck if he causes PC offense (although you’re right that he specifies that his formulation “the Woke left” is not intended to be offensive, comparing it to the ObWi commentariat using the term “conservatives”, which is rather funny given his history of extraordinary rants against it).
Dreher dismissed Applebaum’s article that has been cited here.
He rationalizes Orban’s authoritarian crackdown and makes not a peep of the anti-Semitism Applebaum witnessed in Hungary.
That said, I read a lot of the books Dreher mentions, but more as I would pillage an enemy’s weapons cache, to use it against them.
And Dreher is maddeningly forthright. He drags Trump over the coals, but then like a post-Weimar half-hearted gauleiter with doubts, he flirtatiously refuses to NOT vote for the lout …. because the transgenders.
Most of all, I hate the way he quotes himself at length. It is twittish and self-serving.
Hit the bookstores, Rod, and sell yer book.
He’s a searcher for pure orthodoxy in a liquid modern world. As if HE is the first. Caves are filled with those raving types.
I’m one of them, especially regarding the forcibly mandated designated hitter rule in baseball.
He’s like God in the Garden of Eden. Who is eating my tempting apples, my pretties?
His latest screed (book to be released this Fall) compares what he calls America’s soft totalitarianism to Soviet Russia’s worst inhumanities.
Think about that.
Give me a break.
Putin agrees with him, and with many of Dreher’s commentariat as well. Pussy Riot does not fair well either in Putin’s Russia or Dreher’s Benedict option.
The surveillance alone in the Option communities to interdict gay fumbling about will be formidable.
Talk about Cancel Culture.
I could have a beer, which he drinks, with him, once I got over the fear of him disapproving of my beer drinking, because you never know.
Maybe he drinks beer available only from orthodox monasteries and think of the censorious silences.
Dreher dismissed Applebaum’s article that has been cited here.
He rationalizes Orban’s authoritarian crackdown and makes not a peep of the anti-Semitism Applebaum witnessed in Hungary.
That said, I read a lot of the books Dreher mentions, but more as I would pillage an enemy’s weapons cache, to use it against them.
And Dreher is maddeningly forthright. He drags Trump over the coals, but then like a post-Weimar half-hearted gauleiter with doubts, he flirtatiously refuses to NOT vote for the lout …. because the transgenders.
Most of all, I hate the way he quotes himself at length. It is twittish and self-serving.
Hit the bookstores, Rod, and sell yer book.
He’s a searcher for pure orthodoxy in a liquid modern world. As if HE is the first. Caves are filled with those raving types.
I’m one of them, especially regarding the forcibly mandated designated hitter rule in baseball.
He’s like God in the Garden of Eden. Who is eating my tempting apples, my pretties?
His latest screed (book to be released this Fall) compares what he calls America’s soft totalitarianism to Soviet Russia’s worst inhumanities.
Think about that.
Give me a break.
Putin agrees with him, and with many of Dreher’s commentariat as well. Pussy Riot does not fair well either in Putin’s Russia or Dreher’s Benedict option.
The surveillance alone in the Option communities to interdict gay fumbling about will be formidable.
Talk about Cancel Culture.
I could have a beer, which he drinks, with him, once I got over the fear of him disapproving of my beer drinking, because you never know.
Maybe he drinks beer available only from orthodox monasteries and think of the censorious silences.
I’m sure there’s a statue of Jeff Davis that should be replaced by one of Sherman.
But, since I am such a very bad person (as if you didn’t already know that), I’d make sure that there’s a high-pressure gas cylinder inside the statue of Sherman, so that when the crackers topple it, they break off the valve.
High velocity hilarity ensues. Sherman would approve.
I’m sure there’s a statue of Jeff Davis that should be replaced by one of Sherman.
But, since I am such a very bad person (as if you didn’t already know that), I’d make sure that there’s a high-pressure gas cylinder inside the statue of Sherman, so that when the crackers topple it, they break off the valve.
High velocity hilarity ensues. Sherman would approve.
“fare”, not “fair” Pay it.
“fare”, not “fair” Pay it.
McT,
“wouldn’t you love to see one of these NFL owners, when someone disrespects our flag to say, ‘get that son of a bitch off the field right now. Out. He’s fired. He’s fired.”
Cancel culture, or not?
McT,
“wouldn’t you love to see one of these NFL owners, when someone disrespects our flag to say, ‘get that son of a bitch off the field right now. Out. He’s fired. He’s fired.”
Cancel culture, or not?
I’m just noting here that McKinneyTexas’ delineation of “cancel culture” is not what most people or the media mean when they talk about cancel culture, and is much more akin to doxxing.
CharlesWT’s WaPo story feeds into this somewhat as well.
Pretty much every example raised in response and dismissed, meanwhile, is in line with what is meant by “cancel culture” in the vast majority of references to it.
Different choirs being preached to.
I’m just noting here that McKinneyTexas’ delineation of “cancel culture” is not what most people or the media mean when they talk about cancel culture, and is much more akin to doxxing.
CharlesWT’s WaPo story feeds into this somewhat as well.
Pretty much every example raised in response and dismissed, meanwhile, is in line with what is meant by “cancel culture” in the vast majority of references to it.
Different choirs being preached to.
The Nashville statue of Forrest is on private property but right next to the interstate. In non pandemic years I visit twice a year and we pass it going to and from the airport. (I mostly grew up in Memphis, but much of the family moved to Nashville after I left).
The thing is so laughably hideous it deserves to stay up. Photos don’t do it justice. It is exactly the monument that Forrest deserves.
“ , I hate the way he quotes himself at length.”
I skip them. For all I know, he might be citing the same piece every time.
The Nashville statue of Forrest is on private property but right next to the interstate. In non pandemic years I visit twice a year and we pass it going to and from the airport. (I mostly grew up in Memphis, but much of the family moved to Nashville after I left).
The thing is so laughably hideous it deserves to stay up. Photos don’t do it justice. It is exactly the monument that Forrest deserves.
“ , I hate the way he quotes himself at length.”
I skip them. For all I know, he might be citing the same piece every time.
You’d better call Nashville, Donald.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/business/media/the-tennessean-islam-ad.html
If we take the right wing crypto-religious lunatics at their lunatic word regarding the biased malfeasance of the “mainstream” media, then it’s been three days since Nashville was turned to glass by the Muslim world and why oh why haven’t the mainstream media reported this Holocaust.
I fully expect Mike Pence and Mike Pompeo, in a frenzy of Revelationary ejaculation, to rise into the clouds as they announce the nuking of Tehran to retaliate for the nuking of Nashville three days ago.
Can anyone here prove at this moment that Nashville has NOT been nuked?
See.. they could be right.
We’ll be presented photoshopped footage of Donald Trump himself stomping up and down like Slim Pickens on a nuclear bomb lodged in the bomb bay cavity of a US bomber jet, bomb bay doors open, a green screen of Iranian territory below, as he drinks a glass of water with one hand and shouts that he has nothing to do with ordering the bombing.
He knows nothing.
The Nashville paper’s publishers explained they have no idea how the full page ad slipped by it editorial/ advertising procedures.
I guess this working from home thing has severe holes in it.
The Ministry of Future America is attempting to spark a worldwide nuclear war, the better to speed along Biblical Prophecy and their Christian death cult.
Arrest them, cancel them, and execute them.
The mainstream media is now mere social media.
Nothing can be trusted in lunatic America.
You’d better call Nashville, Donald.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/business/media/the-tennessean-islam-ad.html
If we take the right wing crypto-religious lunatics at their lunatic word regarding the biased malfeasance of the “mainstream” media, then it’s been three days since Nashville was turned to glass by the Muslim world and why oh why haven’t the mainstream media reported this Holocaust.
I fully expect Mike Pence and Mike Pompeo, in a frenzy of Revelationary ejaculation, to rise into the clouds as they announce the nuking of Tehran to retaliate for the nuking of Nashville three days ago.
Can anyone here prove at this moment that Nashville has NOT been nuked?
See.. they could be right.
We’ll be presented photoshopped footage of Donald Trump himself stomping up and down like Slim Pickens on a nuclear bomb lodged in the bomb bay cavity of a US bomber jet, bomb bay doors open, a green screen of Iranian territory below, as he drinks a glass of water with one hand and shouts that he has nothing to do with ordering the bombing.
He knows nothing.
The Nashville paper’s publishers explained they have no idea how the full page ad slipped by it editorial/ advertising procedures.
I guess this working from home thing has severe holes in it.
The Ministry of Future America is attempting to spark a worldwide nuclear war, the better to speed along Biblical Prophecy and their Christian death cult.
Arrest them, cancel them, and execute them.
The mainstream media is now mere social media.
Nothing can be trusted in lunatic America.
but since feminism is a foundational doctrine of the “woke” left, I would guess that the extreme misogynist abuse many public women face (rape, murder and mutilation threats for example) is more likely to come from the right than the left. It would be interesting to know if any research has been done into this, cross-referencing for example stated political affiliations online with misogynist abuse.
An interesting take. Mine is that right/left is irrelevant (or perhaps secondary or some other attenuation descriptor) to the psychological make-up of men who attack women. It’s an illness. I’m not online other than here except for the different magazines I read, so I’m not clued into what a lot of the day-in-day-out stuff consists of. I’m assuming there is an almost infinite range of cruelty that is an inevitable result of so many millions enjoying the comfort of anonymity.
He is pitching the SJW left as the second coming of the totalitarian left, pure evil. But he thinks we should be nuanced in our judgments of slaveowners and brutal police. I don’t respect this.
There are elements of the SJW left that are pretty authoritarian. Or, there are leftist authoritarians who are masking themselves as part of the SJW left. The SJW and brutal police are here, today, alive and doing whatever they do. I judge them by today’s standards. Slave owners today would be human traffickers. Capital punishment is fine by me for human traffickers.
I’ve spent decades trying to be inside the head of someone who could stand to own another person. I can’t do it. Yet, pretty much the entire world did it for thousands of years. Some still do it in some parts of the world.
Even if Jefferson was and is the world’s biggest hypocrite, many of his writings merit independent review and analysis. Even if what he said was in marked contrast to what he did, what he said was, in many instances, truly inspired–but only if applied universally.
GFTNC, first: thanks for the review of my comments and your statements regarding same.
Second, I would like to address this:
(although you’re right that he specifies that his formulation “the Woke left” is not intended to be offensive, comparing it to the ObWi commentariat using the term “conservatives”, which is rather funny given his history of extraordinary rants against it)
I’m pretty sure one doesn’t have to look long and hard to find a rant or two here about conservatives. That said, I plead guilty to being in stark disagreement with most of the Woke Left’s take on issues of the day.
Cancel culture, or not?
Not in my view for the same reasons that I don’t think Kaepernick’s situation or Tucker Carlson’s sponsors yanking their support are CC. A public statement–particularly a public statement while someone is doing their job–that invites judgement will get exactly what it invites: judgment.
(I mostly grew up in Memphis, but much of the family moved to Nashville after I left).
LOL. I spent two years in Millington. When did you graduate from HS?
The thing is so laughably hideous it deserves to stay up. Photos don’t do it justice. It is exactly the monument that Forrest deserves.
So, in thinking about the statue thing, one piece of this discussion that may be problematic is renaming army bases that millions of men and women who have no idea who Bragg, Benning or Hood were spent very important, intense, life-changing months and years at these locations. Places are not statues. We have the Davis mountains in Texas. That’s how they are known. Jefferson County will always be Jefferson County. Corpus Christi (the Body of Christ) will always be Corpus Christi.
Statues, yes, that should be looked at. Places, not so much? They are too much a part of too many people’s histories.
This brings me to LJ. Let me try to be concise: you don’t seem to really have much nice to say to any of the conservatives who comment here. Sorry, but that’s my take on it. Further, I have no recollection of you ever engaging substantively with any of the conservative views I or others have laid out. My general sense is that you typically, if not consistently, default to personal attacks, ad hominem and–to me–strange bouts of stylistic criticisms. I wouldn’t bring any of this up but for your two most recent comments directed to me. But for those comments, I would ignore you except when, as you did with the White Fragility lecture, you put something out there that peaks my interest–at which time I engage. That you don’t like me or what I have to say or whatever else your issue with me is, quite frankly, I don’t care.
but since feminism is a foundational doctrine of the “woke” left, I would guess that the extreme misogynist abuse many public women face (rape, murder and mutilation threats for example) is more likely to come from the right than the left. It would be interesting to know if any research has been done into this, cross-referencing for example stated political affiliations online with misogynist abuse.
An interesting take. Mine is that right/left is irrelevant (or perhaps secondary or some other attenuation descriptor) to the psychological make-up of men who attack women. It’s an illness. I’m not online other than here except for the different magazines I read, so I’m not clued into what a lot of the day-in-day-out stuff consists of. I’m assuming there is an almost infinite range of cruelty that is an inevitable result of so many millions enjoying the comfort of anonymity.
He is pitching the SJW left as the second coming of the totalitarian left, pure evil. But he thinks we should be nuanced in our judgments of slaveowners and brutal police. I don’t respect this.
There are elements of the SJW left that are pretty authoritarian. Or, there are leftist authoritarians who are masking themselves as part of the SJW left. The SJW and brutal police are here, today, alive and doing whatever they do. I judge them by today’s standards. Slave owners today would be human traffickers. Capital punishment is fine by me for human traffickers.
I’ve spent decades trying to be inside the head of someone who could stand to own another person. I can’t do it. Yet, pretty much the entire world did it for thousands of years. Some still do it in some parts of the world.
Even if Jefferson was and is the world’s biggest hypocrite, many of his writings merit independent review and analysis. Even if what he said was in marked contrast to what he did, what he said was, in many instances, truly inspired–but only if applied universally.
GFTNC, first: thanks for the review of my comments and your statements regarding same.
Second, I would like to address this:
(although you’re right that he specifies that his formulation “the Woke left” is not intended to be offensive, comparing it to the ObWi commentariat using the term “conservatives”, which is rather funny given his history of extraordinary rants against it)
I’m pretty sure one doesn’t have to look long and hard to find a rant or two here about conservatives. That said, I plead guilty to being in stark disagreement with most of the Woke Left’s take on issues of the day.
Cancel culture, or not?
Not in my view for the same reasons that I don’t think Kaepernick’s situation or Tucker Carlson’s sponsors yanking their support are CC. A public statement–particularly a public statement while someone is doing their job–that invites judgement will get exactly what it invites: judgment.
(I mostly grew up in Memphis, but much of the family moved to Nashville after I left).
LOL. I spent two years in Millington. When did you graduate from HS?
The thing is so laughably hideous it deserves to stay up. Photos don’t do it justice. It is exactly the monument that Forrest deserves.
So, in thinking about the statue thing, one piece of this discussion that may be problematic is renaming army bases that millions of men and women who have no idea who Bragg, Benning or Hood were spent very important, intense, life-changing months and years at these locations. Places are not statues. We have the Davis mountains in Texas. That’s how they are known. Jefferson County will always be Jefferson County. Corpus Christi (the Body of Christ) will always be Corpus Christi.
Statues, yes, that should be looked at. Places, not so much? They are too much a part of too many people’s histories.
This brings me to LJ. Let me try to be concise: you don’t seem to really have much nice to say to any of the conservatives who comment here. Sorry, but that’s my take on it. Further, I have no recollection of you ever engaging substantively with any of the conservative views I or others have laid out. My general sense is that you typically, if not consistently, default to personal attacks, ad hominem and–to me–strange bouts of stylistic criticisms. I wouldn’t bring any of this up but for your two most recent comments directed to me. But for those comments, I would ignore you except when, as you did with the White Fragility lecture, you put something out there that peaks my interest–at which time I engage. That you don’t like me or what I have to say or whatever else your issue with me is, quite frankly, I don’t care.
A public statement–particularly a public statement while someone is doing their job–that invites judgement will get exactly what it invites: judgment.
There is a public statement required when the National Anthem is played. Kaepernick refused to make that public statement an empty gesture (or one he disagreed with). Yes, this occurred during a time when he was on duty with “his job.” But does one’s job require one to make political gestures that one disagrees with? He made a gesture that reflected his own views, and not the views of the NFL. It certainly seems wrong to me to punish him for that. Whatever your definition of “cancel culture” is, it seems very wrong for private corporations to force people to embrace symbols of nationalism that they don’t believe in.
A public statement–particularly a public statement while someone is doing their job–that invites judgement will get exactly what it invites: judgment.
There is a public statement required when the National Anthem is played. Kaepernick refused to make that public statement an empty gesture (or one he disagreed with). Yes, this occurred during a time when he was on duty with “his job.” But does one’s job require one to make political gestures that one disagrees with? He made a gesture that reflected his own views, and not the views of the NFL. It certainly seems wrong to me to punish him for that. Whatever your definition of “cancel culture” is, it seems very wrong for private corporations to force people to embrace symbols of nationalism that they don’t believe in.
McK, no worries, thanks for the explanation, and back atcha.
Regarding statues, I figure it depends. On who the statue is of, on whether the people who live in its vicinity want it there, on why it was there in the first place, on lots of factors.
I am personally not against civil disobedience, which not infrequently involves breaking the law. It’s as American a tradition as any other. So that colors my POV.
Someday, maybe, this country will come to an understanding of exactly what the Confederacy was about, and we’ll all just take the freaking statues down without further ado.
They aren’t value-neutral artifacts. Not now, and not when they were erected.
McK, no worries, thanks for the explanation, and back atcha.
Regarding statues, I figure it depends. On who the statue is of, on whether the people who live in its vicinity want it there, on why it was there in the first place, on lots of factors.
I am personally not against civil disobedience, which not infrequently involves breaking the law. It’s as American a tradition as any other. So that colors my POV.
Someday, maybe, this country will come to an understanding of exactly what the Confederacy was about, and we’ll all just take the freaking statues down without further ado.
They aren’t value-neutral artifacts. Not now, and not when they were erected.
But does one’s job require one to make political gestures that one disagrees with? He made a gesture that reflected his own views, and not the views of the NFL.
Ok, let’s leave aside the fact that every NFL game played in my lifetime starts with the National Anthem, which–I am comfortable projecting–is viewed by the overwhelming majority of ticket-purchasing fans as a symbol of American unity and shared experience. And, that dissing the Anthem and the flag does not sit well with vast majority of ticket-purchasing fans who, ultimately paid CK’s not insubstantial salary. I’m also very comfortable with that broad statement.
So, let’s leave aside that CK knew what he was getting into when he signed on for millions of bucks, knew who his employer’s customer base was/is and knew that the games started with the Anthem.
Leave all of that aside.
As of this year, June 19th is a paid holiday at my firm. Suppose one of my white attorneys sent an all-firm email explaining that he thinks our policy is a surrender to BLM–whose agenda he thinks is 100% opportunistic BS–and he resents being made an involuntary part of this cop-out (no pun intended). That’s a political statement, on the job, that is going to hit different people differently. I’m pretty sure our African American attorneys and staff would not like it. But, it wouldn’t matter if each of them came to me and said, “he’s a jerk, but we already knew that so don’t do anything drastic”, I would still chop his ass in a heartbeat. And I have a lot of issues with a lot of the BLM agenda once you get past the part about objecting to police killing unarmed black men who are handcuffed and on the ground, completely compliant and a too-widespread problem with law enforcement, crime and punishment in general when it comes to black people. What common ground the BLM leadership and I have is a lot smaller than the uncommon ground. Nonetheless, I am not going to allow a work environment where anyone is subject to being marginalized by an opinionated asshole, even if I myself am an opinionated asshole, I don’t force my views on others except, of course, here.
Or, suppose a white football player, while CK or someone helse is kneeling, holds up a poster behind the kneeling player that says “BLM is BS!” Does he keep his job? why is his statement any different than CK’s?
What about high school and college students who don’t like mandatory workshops on multiculturalism and decid to say, clearly and bluntly: multiculturalism is BS!
Protected speech or grounds for expulsion?
In my view, anyone can say pretty much whatever they want short of fighting words or shouting fire in a crowded theater or other truly outrageous speech at the very edge of imaginable human communication. In fact, I want the true, unregenerate assholes in our society to speak up so that we know who the hell we are dealing with. Give them a soap box and record their every word, IMO.
Last example: I’m assuming you’ve appeared in Federal court at some point. Every session begins with “God save this honorable court and these United States” or words to that effect. Every lawyer in the courtroom dutifully bows their head during this process. If a lawyer is in Federal court, it’s a 99% certainty that he/she is there for a client. Now, it is a certainty that on any given day, with 20 or 30 lawyers waiting their turn on the docket, that at least one is not personally down with the idea of God or a supreme being or anything like that.
If one of those lawyers was on my payroll taking care of one of our clients and my lawyer decided to pop off about not liking the invocation and not agreeing with it, I would probably give that lawyer one final warning and if it repeated, I would fire him. If the lawyer so infuriated the judge–possible but not likely, the judge would more likely think my lawyer was an idiot–that our client took an un-fixable hit on a ruling, I’d march that lawyer out the door personally.
So, deferring one’s political agenda for a time when one is not hitting his/her employer or client in the pocket book is not an undue imposition in my book. He does not have to play professional football and make millions of dollars. He can stand there and think about whatever while everyone else is singing and waiting for the game to start.
I am personally not against civil disobedience, which not infrequently involves breaking the law.
I agree subject to time, location and extent of disobedience. I’m not down with blocking traffic. It’s dramatic, but it screws with too many people’s lives, including people riding in ambulances. I’m not down with property destruction. I’m damn sure not down with hurting other people or even frightening other people.
But does one’s job require one to make political gestures that one disagrees with? He made a gesture that reflected his own views, and not the views of the NFL.
Ok, let’s leave aside the fact that every NFL game played in my lifetime starts with the National Anthem, which–I am comfortable projecting–is viewed by the overwhelming majority of ticket-purchasing fans as a symbol of American unity and shared experience. And, that dissing the Anthem and the flag does not sit well with vast majority of ticket-purchasing fans who, ultimately paid CK’s not insubstantial salary. I’m also very comfortable with that broad statement.
So, let’s leave aside that CK knew what he was getting into when he signed on for millions of bucks, knew who his employer’s customer base was/is and knew that the games started with the Anthem.
Leave all of that aside.
As of this year, June 19th is a paid holiday at my firm. Suppose one of my white attorneys sent an all-firm email explaining that he thinks our policy is a surrender to BLM–whose agenda he thinks is 100% opportunistic BS–and he resents being made an involuntary part of this cop-out (no pun intended). That’s a political statement, on the job, that is going to hit different people differently. I’m pretty sure our African American attorneys and staff would not like it. But, it wouldn’t matter if each of them came to me and said, “he’s a jerk, but we already knew that so don’t do anything drastic”, I would still chop his ass in a heartbeat. And I have a lot of issues with a lot of the BLM agenda once you get past the part about objecting to police killing unarmed black men who are handcuffed and on the ground, completely compliant and a too-widespread problem with law enforcement, crime and punishment in general when it comes to black people. What common ground the BLM leadership and I have is a lot smaller than the uncommon ground. Nonetheless, I am not going to allow a work environment where anyone is subject to being marginalized by an opinionated asshole, even if I myself am an opinionated asshole, I don’t force my views on others except, of course, here.
Or, suppose a white football player, while CK or someone helse is kneeling, holds up a poster behind the kneeling player that says “BLM is BS!” Does he keep his job? why is his statement any different than CK’s?
What about high school and college students who don’t like mandatory workshops on multiculturalism and decid to say, clearly and bluntly: multiculturalism is BS!
Protected speech or grounds for expulsion?
In my view, anyone can say pretty much whatever they want short of fighting words or shouting fire in a crowded theater or other truly outrageous speech at the very edge of imaginable human communication. In fact, I want the true, unregenerate assholes in our society to speak up so that we know who the hell we are dealing with. Give them a soap box and record their every word, IMO.
Last example: I’m assuming you’ve appeared in Federal court at some point. Every session begins with “God save this honorable court and these United States” or words to that effect. Every lawyer in the courtroom dutifully bows their head during this process. If a lawyer is in Federal court, it’s a 99% certainty that he/she is there for a client. Now, it is a certainty that on any given day, with 20 or 30 lawyers waiting their turn on the docket, that at least one is not personally down with the idea of God or a supreme being or anything like that.
If one of those lawyers was on my payroll taking care of one of our clients and my lawyer decided to pop off about not liking the invocation and not agreeing with it, I would probably give that lawyer one final warning and if it repeated, I would fire him. If the lawyer so infuriated the judge–possible but not likely, the judge would more likely think my lawyer was an idiot–that our client took an un-fixable hit on a ruling, I’d march that lawyer out the door personally.
So, deferring one’s political agenda for a time when one is not hitting his/her employer or client in the pocket book is not an undue imposition in my book. He does not have to play professional football and make millions of dollars. He can stand there and think about whatever while everyone else is singing and waiting for the game to start.
I am personally not against civil disobedience, which not infrequently involves breaking the law.
I agree subject to time, location and extent of disobedience. I’m not down with blocking traffic. It’s dramatic, but it screws with too many people’s lives, including people riding in ambulances. I’m not down with property destruction. I’m damn sure not down with hurting other people or even frightening other people.
Re: place names vs. statues.
Denali isn’t just a dyslexic river in Egypt, y’know?
Re: place names vs. statues.
Denali isn’t just a dyslexic river in Egypt, y’know?
Prominent baseball fan George Will once wrote that his young son understood the final stanza of The Star-Spangled Banner to be
which doesn’t quite rise to an appreciation of American unity and shared experience. Granted, Will could have made it up; granted he was talking about a little kid anyway; nevertheless, I suggest that for some substantial fraction of sports fans, the National Anthem ritual is more something to get over with and get to the game already than it is a meaningful moment to be savored.
But let’s leave all that aside, as McKinney urges. I’m more interested at the moment in McKinney’s assessment of Barr firing the US Attorney for the SDNY.
–TP
Prominent baseball fan George Will once wrote that his young son understood the final stanza of The Star-Spangled Banner to be
which doesn’t quite rise to an appreciation of American unity and shared experience. Granted, Will could have made it up; granted he was talking about a little kid anyway; nevertheless, I suggest that for some substantial fraction of sports fans, the National Anthem ritual is more something to get over with and get to the game already than it is a meaningful moment to be savored.
But let’s leave all that aside, as McKinney urges. I’m more interested at the moment in McKinney’s assessment of Barr firing the US Attorney for the SDNY.
–TP
I’m more interested at the moment in McKinney’s assessment of Barr firing the US Attorney for the SDNY.
Amen
Certainly from the non-lawyer outside the optics, with the Tulsa rally less than a triumph and so not distracting, are horrible. Both to boot him before his successor is confirmed and to have a successor without prosecutorial experience. But perhaps there are mitigating factors?
I’m more interested at the moment in McKinney’s assessment of Barr firing the US Attorney for the SDNY.
Amen
Certainly from the non-lawyer outside the optics, with the Tulsa rally less than a triumph and so not distracting, are horrible. Both to boot him before his successor is confirmed and to have a successor without prosecutorial experience. But perhaps there are mitigating factors?
After all the discussion, I still don’t know what we or anyone else is supposed to do about twitter mobs. Are they on the ballot? Can I cancel the cancel culture with my spending choices? I’m all for “Don’t be an a**hole” in all it’s subjectivity. Now what?
After all the discussion, I still don’t know what we or anyone else is supposed to do about twitter mobs. Are they on the ballot? Can I cancel the cancel culture with my spending choices? I’m all for “Don’t be an a**hole” in all it’s subjectivity. Now what?
Over here we have the discussion mainly about street names. In some cases a renaming simply draws attention to otherwise completely forgotten persons, e.g. a street in my neighbourhood was originally named after a corporate executive who committed some questionable acts during the 3rd Reich, can’t remember what exactly. There were probably few who ever heard of him and the street name was used without thinking. The very act of renaming it to a neutral place name made the guy ‘famous’ for a short time.
That street had no one actually living there, so it incurred few costs to residents (just the grocery discounter at the end had to change his address).
In other cases the city got creative. The names remained but where attributed to someone else of the same name (ideally only the surname was used in the first place).
A curious case was the Iltissstraße (polecat street). I think very few people knew that it was not named after the animal but after a gunboat Germany sent to China during the boxer rebellion. The only hint was that about every street in the vicinity had a more direct connection to the event. There it was decided to stick with the name but to erect several information signs in the area (all around the university that covers most of it) to explain the history. What made it even more problematic was that the ethnographic museum was also there which contains a lot of artifacts acquired during the colonial era by often questionable means.
The most recent debate was about a street in a quarter of Berlin that is officially called the African one because all roads are named after people and places in Africa or persons from our colonial past there. The idea was to remove the name of a particularly unsavoury character (who even had to testify before parliament about his brutality in the colonies) and replace it with that of an African queen of the same era (there is a local law that newly named streets have to get female names, if women are significantly underrepresented). Problem: That lady fought for independence (good) but also was involved in the local slave trade. I believe the case has not been fully decided yet and meanwhile the district took refuge in the ‘same name, different person’ cop-out. And of course there is no consent on whether the names of tribes and locations can to-day be seen as honoring them or whether the stench of colonialism cannot be removed and this remains a case of cultural appropriation in a sense.
We also have a discussion about military barrack and installation names usually centered on the question, whether a person that joined the resistance against Hitler (and died for it) after e.g. committing war crimes can be considered appropriate. The original naming was part of the post-war effort to spread the myth of the ‘clean’ Wehrmacht (i.e.the regular armed forces not being involved in the atrocities committed by the Nazis, the SS etc.).
Over here we have the discussion mainly about street names. In some cases a renaming simply draws attention to otherwise completely forgotten persons, e.g. a street in my neighbourhood was originally named after a corporate executive who committed some questionable acts during the 3rd Reich, can’t remember what exactly. There were probably few who ever heard of him and the street name was used without thinking. The very act of renaming it to a neutral place name made the guy ‘famous’ for a short time.
That street had no one actually living there, so it incurred few costs to residents (just the grocery discounter at the end had to change his address).
In other cases the city got creative. The names remained but where attributed to someone else of the same name (ideally only the surname was used in the first place).
A curious case was the Iltissstraße (polecat street). I think very few people knew that it was not named after the animal but after a gunboat Germany sent to China during the boxer rebellion. The only hint was that about every street in the vicinity had a more direct connection to the event. There it was decided to stick with the name but to erect several information signs in the area (all around the university that covers most of it) to explain the history. What made it even more problematic was that the ethnographic museum was also there which contains a lot of artifacts acquired during the colonial era by often questionable means.
The most recent debate was about a street in a quarter of Berlin that is officially called the African one because all roads are named after people and places in Africa or persons from our colonial past there. The idea was to remove the name of a particularly unsavoury character (who even had to testify before parliament about his brutality in the colonies) and replace it with that of an African queen of the same era (there is a local law that newly named streets have to get female names, if women are significantly underrepresented). Problem: That lady fought for independence (good) but also was involved in the local slave trade. I believe the case has not been fully decided yet and meanwhile the district took refuge in the ‘same name, different person’ cop-out. And of course there is no consent on whether the names of tribes and locations can to-day be seen as honoring them or whether the stench of colonialism cannot be removed and this remains a case of cultural appropriation in a sense.
We also have a discussion about military barrack and installation names usually centered on the question, whether a person that joined the resistance against Hitler (and died for it) after e.g. committing war crimes can be considered appropriate. The original naming was part of the post-war effort to spread the myth of the ‘clean’ Wehrmacht (i.e.the regular armed forces not being involved in the atrocities committed by the Nazis, the SS etc.).
My take on statues is this, most of the people fighting the civil war did so out of a sense of duty to their home state. Read any history and Lee picked Virginia over commanding the Union army. What the war was about politically had little interest to the people who made up state militias,mostly recruited after the war started to defend their homes. As much as people dislike the current politics of their leaders, on both sides, they would defend their homes, cities states and country, mostly in that order. Otherwise. We should condemn every sanctuary city, state government refusing to follow fed guidelines etc as traitors.
Someday we will thoughtfully separate out the character of people who fought when asked, fought honorably, from those who were despicably brutal and treat them each as deserved.
But just defacing and destroying any public monument or building has an appropriate consequence that should be enforced. Civil disobedience in the form of oeacef protest is different t than vandalism.
My take on statues is this, most of the people fighting the civil war did so out of a sense of duty to their home state. Read any history and Lee picked Virginia over commanding the Union army. What the war was about politically had little interest to the people who made up state militias,mostly recruited after the war started to defend their homes. As much as people dislike the current politics of their leaders, on both sides, they would defend their homes, cities states and country, mostly in that order. Otherwise. We should condemn every sanctuary city, state government refusing to follow fed guidelines etc as traitors.
Someday we will thoughtfully separate out the character of people who fought when asked, fought honorably, from those who were despicably brutal and treat them each as deserved.
But just defacing and destroying any public monument or building has an appropriate consequence that should be enforced. Civil disobedience in the form of oeacef protest is different t than vandalism.
I still don’t know what we or anyone else is supposed to do about twitter mobs.
Don’t encourage, celebrate, or pile on ?
Other than that, I have nothing, either.
I still don’t know what we or anyone else is supposed to do about twitter mobs.
Don’t encourage, celebrate, or pile on ?
Other than that, I have nothing, either.
Let me try to be concise: you don’t seem to really have much nice to say to any of the conservatives who comment here. Sorry, but that’s my take on it
(lj glances at sapient, who has been the target of his ire more times than he can count)
Bzzzzzt! I’m sorry, that’s not the right answer, but you do get a set of steak knives as a consolation prize, thanks for playing!
The actual answer is– I don’t like people who hijack conversations. Maybe stroll back up and look at the video posted in the OP. Then look at the conversation before your entry. From all appearances, it looked like an interesting discussion about music, culture and appropriation. CharlesWT makes a content free post connecting cultural appropriation to cancel culture, which then piques your interest and you have a comment that closes with:
So, for me, like most of the other SJW/Woke devices for short-cutting substantive discussion or casting out (cancelling) the heretics, “cultural appropriation” is 99% BS.
Note how you dial that back here
This all got started with the question of cultural appropriation–again, an artifact of some subset of the Woke left (no offense intended, just as I’m sure no one intends to insult me when they refer to conservatives)–about which I expressed my views and then made the further, logical in my view, observation that accusations of cultural appropriation are often the basis for instituting a cancellation campaign.
You do know we can look back at what you wrote before?
I don’t know, maybe you are the soul of generosity at your firm, humanitarian in your town, beloved family patriarch, with all your brood happily taking in your bon mots. I certainly hope so, cause here, you seem like a pure asshole. And given that we have come to the conclusion that the solution for twitter mobs is ‘don’t be an asshole’, well, you can see the problem. Of course, you could say I’m just another asshole, but when you pique Russell’s ire, well, you may want to reflect on that for a moment.
Let me try to be concise: you don’t seem to really have much nice to say to any of the conservatives who comment here. Sorry, but that’s my take on it
(lj glances at sapient, who has been the target of his ire more times than he can count)
Bzzzzzt! I’m sorry, that’s not the right answer, but you do get a set of steak knives as a consolation prize, thanks for playing!
The actual answer is– I don’t like people who hijack conversations. Maybe stroll back up and look at the video posted in the OP. Then look at the conversation before your entry. From all appearances, it looked like an interesting discussion about music, culture and appropriation. CharlesWT makes a content free post connecting cultural appropriation to cancel culture, which then piques your interest and you have a comment that closes with:
So, for me, like most of the other SJW/Woke devices for short-cutting substantive discussion or casting out (cancelling) the heretics, “cultural appropriation” is 99% BS.
Note how you dial that back here
This all got started with the question of cultural appropriation–again, an artifact of some subset of the Woke left (no offense intended, just as I’m sure no one intends to insult me when they refer to conservatives)–about which I expressed my views and then made the further, logical in my view, observation that accusations of cultural appropriation are often the basis for instituting a cancellation campaign.
You do know we can look back at what you wrote before?
I don’t know, maybe you are the soul of generosity at your firm, humanitarian in your town, beloved family patriarch, with all your brood happily taking in your bon mots. I certainly hope so, cause here, you seem like a pure asshole. And given that we have come to the conclusion that the solution for twitter mobs is ‘don’t be an asshole’, well, you can see the problem. Of course, you could say I’m just another asshole, but when you pique Russell’s ire, well, you may want to reflect on that for a moment.
…dissing the Anthem and the flag does not sit well with vast majority of ticket-purchasing fans who, ultimately paid CK’s not insubstantial salary.
Kneeling is a sign of respect.
CK was required to make a political statement of support for the anthem and flag. He has an issue with that, which he showed in the most respectful way imaginable.
Some people who claim to support peaceful protest mean that they support peaceful protest with the exception of any protest that anyone chooses to make.
…dissing the Anthem and the flag does not sit well with vast majority of ticket-purchasing fans who, ultimately paid CK’s not insubstantial salary.
Kneeling is a sign of respect.
CK was required to make a political statement of support for the anthem and flag. He has an issue with that, which he showed in the most respectful way imaginable.
Some people who claim to support peaceful protest mean that they support peaceful protest with the exception of any protest that anyone chooses to make.
no, don’t protest that way. no not there. not now. not that loudly. you are imagining that. that’s not a valid reason to protest.
no, don’t protest that way. no not there. not now. not that loudly. you are imagining that. that’s not a valid reason to protest.
As much as people dislike the current politics of their leaders, on both sides, they would defend their homes, cities states and country, mostly in that order.
i wouldn’t defend my home in order to preserve slavery.
As much as people dislike the current politics of their leaders, on both sides, they would defend their homes, cities states and country, mostly in that order.
i wouldn’t defend my home in order to preserve slavery.
But what if your choice is between your home kust maybe getting burned down by Yankees, whether you are fighting for slavery or not, and it definitely getting burned down by your neighbours (or people hired or instigated by them) for not fighting for slavery? Would that be home-canceling culture?
But since your neighbours of then would have voted Democrat and, Demon rats being leftist by definition, it would have been leftist cancel culture again, so QED.
But what if your choice is between your home kust maybe getting burned down by Yankees, whether you are fighting for slavery or not, and it definitely getting burned down by your neighbours (or people hired or instigated by them) for not fighting for slavery? Would that be home-canceling culture?
But since your neighbours of then would have voted Democrat and, Demon rats being leftist by definition, it would have been leftist cancel culture again, so QED.
i’d start the process a bit earlier: there would be no slavery, and i wouldn’t start or participate in a war to preserve it.
and if i did, because it came down to defending my house against people fighting against my side’s insistence on having slaves, i wouldn’t expect future generations to put up statues in honor of those who lost a war to keep slaves.
but, as always – a liberal wants something, so “conservatism” has to react.
i’d start the process a bit earlier: there would be no slavery, and i wouldn’t start or participate in a war to preserve it.
and if i did, because it came down to defending my house against people fighting against my side’s insistence on having slaves, i wouldn’t expect future generations to put up statues in honor of those who lost a war to keep slaves.
but, as always – a liberal wants something, so “conservatism” has to react.
No one here can actually pretend that cancel culture exists and is a preferred tool of the left. The original examples here are the tip of the iceberg with people losing their livelihood over political views pretty much weekly.
Any slight, no matter how small or unintentional, can get a social media campaign ending in firings and faux apologies by companies to limit the reputational impact. No apology by a person is sufficient contrition, no length of time adequate insulation from outrage.
As for civil disobedience, they took down the statue of Grant, the WINNER of the Civil War. Next will be the Vietnam Memorial. The Washington monument has to go, and Lincoln was pretty much forced into the Civil War so I’m not sure why he has a monument, really all white people took part in the theft of Native American lands so all of their statues have to come down, in fact they should really all go back to Europe after forfeiting all their possessions, then the black people can take their reparations and return to Africa so the Native Americans can have their traditional lands back, but we will need to return them to predevelopment pristine form, then we can start on centuries of history in other parts of the world to pick the time in a universally violent human history we should return all those lands to so we can history over.
Or, it’s all bullshit.
No one here can actually pretend that cancel culture exists and is a preferred tool of the left. The original examples here are the tip of the iceberg with people losing their livelihood over political views pretty much weekly.
Any slight, no matter how small or unintentional, can get a social media campaign ending in firings and faux apologies by companies to limit the reputational impact. No apology by a person is sufficient contrition, no length of time adequate insulation from outrage.
As for civil disobedience, they took down the statue of Grant, the WINNER of the Civil War. Next will be the Vietnam Memorial. The Washington monument has to go, and Lincoln was pretty much forced into the Civil War so I’m not sure why he has a monument, really all white people took part in the theft of Native American lands so all of their statues have to come down, in fact they should really all go back to Europe after forfeiting all their possessions, then the black people can take their reparations and return to Africa so the Native Americans can have their traditional lands back, but we will need to return them to predevelopment pristine form, then we can start on centuries of history in other parts of the world to pick the time in a universally violent human history we should return all those lands to so we can history over.
Or, it’s all bullshit.
most of the people fighting the civil war did so out of a sense of duty to their home state.
I think this needs some unpacking.
First, if we are going to speculate about the motives of people 160 years, my own speculation would be that the people who fought for the Confederacy did so for any of 100 reasons. Just like in any war.
Second, talk about “defending” their homes, cities, states, etc., implies that their homes, cities, states, etc., were under attack. That they were the target of aggression, rather than the aggressor. Which is, I think, a less-than-accurate description of the case we’re discussing.
Third, any discussion of the Civil War that neglects to mention that the purpose of the Confederate States of America was to establish, perpetuate, and extend a society and economy based on the enslavement of people with black skin and the doctrine of white supremacy, is missing a certain key element. It’s a lack of candor that borders on bad faith.
And those are my thoughts about your comment cited above.
My thoughts about the statues are that they weren’t erected by the people who fought for the CSA, however nobly or for whatever motive. They were erected by other people, mostly a generation or more after the Civil War ended, and quite often for a mixture of reasons. Just like all statues and public monuments.
And quite often those reasons included a desire to affirm the doctrine that should have died with the CSA, which is the idea that people with white skin deserve a place of privilege relative to people with dark skin.
Do you disagree with that last statement?
Monuments to soldiers of the CSA are not value-neutral. They aren’t simple historical artifacts, they aren’t simply well-meant gestures of respect to men who fought ‘nobly’, even if for bad ends.
They might be that to you, but other folks are also involved. Folks who have to live with the statues, see them every day, and be reminded every day of a history that refuses to accept those folks as people.
There’s a discussion we could have about when and whether destruction of property is a legitimate form of civil disobedience. That discussion would need to extend to things like, for example, the Boston tea party, or the kinds of monkey-wrenching activities that some environmental activists engage in. It’s an area with a lot of sides to it.
But I have no problem with removing monuments to the CSA and its champions, per se. It was, frankly, an abominable regime, created for and dedicated to wicked ends.
If you think it was about states’ rights, go and look at the CSA constitution and see if a free state could join the CSA.
when you pique Russell’s ire
TBH, it doesn’t take much to ‘pique Russell’s ire’ these days.
I generally understand the distinction McK was trying to make – if you take a strong public position on controversial topic, people may respond to that in ways that are harmful to you, and you need to accept that.
I don’t disagree with that, although different cases present different nuances to consider.
I just don’t think it applies in my friend’s case, since she had literally nothing to do with the statements that gave offense. She was just the parent and employer of the person who did.
But that ground has been covered, and I’m content to let it be.
most of the people fighting the civil war did so out of a sense of duty to their home state.
I think this needs some unpacking.
First, if we are going to speculate about the motives of people 160 years, my own speculation would be that the people who fought for the Confederacy did so for any of 100 reasons. Just like in any war.
Second, talk about “defending” their homes, cities, states, etc., implies that their homes, cities, states, etc., were under attack. That they were the target of aggression, rather than the aggressor. Which is, I think, a less-than-accurate description of the case we’re discussing.
Third, any discussion of the Civil War that neglects to mention that the purpose of the Confederate States of America was to establish, perpetuate, and extend a society and economy based on the enslavement of people with black skin and the doctrine of white supremacy, is missing a certain key element. It’s a lack of candor that borders on bad faith.
And those are my thoughts about your comment cited above.
My thoughts about the statues are that they weren’t erected by the people who fought for the CSA, however nobly or for whatever motive. They were erected by other people, mostly a generation or more after the Civil War ended, and quite often for a mixture of reasons. Just like all statues and public monuments.
And quite often those reasons included a desire to affirm the doctrine that should have died with the CSA, which is the idea that people with white skin deserve a place of privilege relative to people with dark skin.
Do you disagree with that last statement?
Monuments to soldiers of the CSA are not value-neutral. They aren’t simple historical artifacts, they aren’t simply well-meant gestures of respect to men who fought ‘nobly’, even if for bad ends.
They might be that to you, but other folks are also involved. Folks who have to live with the statues, see them every day, and be reminded every day of a history that refuses to accept those folks as people.
There’s a discussion we could have about when and whether destruction of property is a legitimate form of civil disobedience. That discussion would need to extend to things like, for example, the Boston tea party, or the kinds of monkey-wrenching activities that some environmental activists engage in. It’s an area with a lot of sides to it.
But I have no problem with removing monuments to the CSA and its champions, per se. It was, frankly, an abominable regime, created for and dedicated to wicked ends.
If you think it was about states’ rights, go and look at the CSA constitution and see if a free state could join the CSA.
when you pique Russell’s ire
TBH, it doesn’t take much to ‘pique Russell’s ire’ these days.
I generally understand the distinction McK was trying to make – if you take a strong public position on controversial topic, people may respond to that in ways that are harmful to you, and you need to accept that.
I don’t disagree with that, although different cases present different nuances to consider.
I just don’t think it applies in my friend’s case, since she had literally nothing to do with the statements that gave offense. She was just the parent and employer of the person who did.
But that ground has been covered, and I’m content to let it be.
Kneeling is a sign of respect.
CK was required to make a political statement of support for the anthem and flag. He has an issue with that, which he showed in the most respectful way imaginable.
This. And, given your (McKinney’s) caveats somewhere upthread about how America has treated/often still treats (or if it’s not America doing the treating, it’s allowing the treating of) black people, CK’s eloquent dignified protest of simultaneously showing respect but registering a serious misgiving, seems about as perfect a protest as could be devised.
no, don’t protest that way. no not there. not now. not that loudly. you are imagining that. that’s not a valid reason to protest.
Exactly.
Kneeling is a sign of respect.
CK was required to make a political statement of support for the anthem and flag. He has an issue with that, which he showed in the most respectful way imaginable.
This. And, given your (McKinney’s) caveats somewhere upthread about how America has treated/often still treats (or if it’s not America doing the treating, it’s allowing the treating of) black people, CK’s eloquent dignified protest of simultaneously showing respect but registering a serious misgiving, seems about as perfect a protest as could be devised.
no, don’t protest that way. no not there. not now. not that loudly. you are imagining that. that’s not a valid reason to protest.
Exactly.
As for civil disobedience, they took down the statue of Grant, the WINNER of the Civil War.
any chance the individuals who did that simply don’t know the history ?
As for civil disobedience, they took down the statue of Grant, the WINNER of the Civil War.
any chance the individuals who did that simply don’t know the history ?
cancel culture exists and is a preferred tool of the left.
WHO THE FUCK IS THIS LEFT YOU TALK ABOUT?
that’s my question.
some people use social media to harass other people. some of those people are “on the left”, which can mean any of a million things. some of those people are “on the right”, which can mean any of a million things.
how many of each? your guess is as good as mine. I haven’t gone out and counted up every instance of people using social media to fuck with other people and then sorted them into piles in order to do the numbers.
If you have, show your work.
Short of that, I really and truly think it’s sufficient to observe that some people use social media to screw around with other people’s lives.
I don’t think anyone here is defending that, from either direction.
If insisting that it’s all a practice of some nefarious left – whoever the hell they are – for which everyone here at ObWi except you and maybe McK need to answer, far be it from me to stop you.
We just might get sick of being asked to answer for it.
We didn’t do it. Most of us appear to think it’s not a good thing to do. I’m not sure what else to say about it.
cancel culture exists and is a preferred tool of the left.
WHO THE FUCK IS THIS LEFT YOU TALK ABOUT?
that’s my question.
some people use social media to harass other people. some of those people are “on the left”, which can mean any of a million things. some of those people are “on the right”, which can mean any of a million things.
how many of each? your guess is as good as mine. I haven’t gone out and counted up every instance of people using social media to fuck with other people and then sorted them into piles in order to do the numbers.
If you have, show your work.
Short of that, I really and truly think it’s sufficient to observe that some people use social media to screw around with other people’s lives.
I don’t think anyone here is defending that, from either direction.
If insisting that it’s all a practice of some nefarious left – whoever the hell they are – for which everyone here at ObWi except you and maybe McK need to answer, far be it from me to stop you.
We just might get sick of being asked to answer for it.
We didn’t do it. Most of us appear to think it’s not a good thing to do. I’m not sure what else to say about it.
any chance the individuals who did that simply don’t know the history ?
bearded guy on a horse wearing 19th C drag.
PULL IT DOWN!!!!
any chance the individuals who did that simply don’t know the history ?
bearded guy on a horse wearing 19th C drag.
PULL IT DOWN!!!!
It is tiresome to be accused of bad faith because, in discussing the Civil War one doesnt feel the need to state the obvious. It seems to me that it is bad faith to pretend that slavery wasnt the order of the day in all of the US and many of the traders were from the North literally as the war was beginning.
Lincoln freed the slaves because they needed to be allowed to fight in the war and they were, by law in the North banned from being armed. There arent any saints in this story, so you’re just picking a point in time to focus on.
It is tiresome to be accused of bad faith because, in discussing the Civil War one doesnt feel the need to state the obvious. It seems to me that it is bad faith to pretend that slavery wasnt the order of the day in all of the US and many of the traders were from the North literally as the war was beginning.
Lincoln freed the slaves because they needed to be allowed to fight in the war and they were, by law in the North banned from being armed. There arent any saints in this story, so you’re just picking a point in time to focus on.
I’m fine with people taking a nuanced view of historical figures. The problem with Confederate statues in particular is that they were erected to glorify racist ideology.
The “ traitor” label doesn’t interest me. The Founding Fathers were traitors too and the Confederates saw themselves the same way. What makes the Confederate cause wholly wrong is that it was in defense of slavery.
Of course the 1619 project claims our Revolution was also in defense of slavery, but I think that is oversimplified. For some maybe it was.
So if we were removing statues in a legal way, I would put the Confederates in a museum, but Washington would stay up, though with plaques stating that he was a slaveowners and the Iroquois might see him differently. Though we also shouldn’t romanticize how Native Americans fought their wars either.
Generally speaking statues aren’t about nuance. That is what is funny about Rod Dreher complaining about destroying our connection with history. Statues tell more about the people who erected the statue than they do about the person being honored. Maybe we should put up statues of iconoclasts tearing down statues next to the re- erected statues they tore down. Then we could have plaques explaining the motives of everyone, along with another plaque summarizing the life story, good and bad, of the person whose statue was torn down and the re- erected.
MkT— we moved to Memphis almost exactly when you did — in 1968. I lived my first 8 years in a Los Angeles suburb. I graduated HS in 77.
I’m fine with people taking a nuanced view of historical figures. The problem with Confederate statues in particular is that they were erected to glorify racist ideology.
The “ traitor” label doesn’t interest me. The Founding Fathers were traitors too and the Confederates saw themselves the same way. What makes the Confederate cause wholly wrong is that it was in defense of slavery.
Of course the 1619 project claims our Revolution was also in defense of slavery, but I think that is oversimplified. For some maybe it was.
So if we were removing statues in a legal way, I would put the Confederates in a museum, but Washington would stay up, though with plaques stating that he was a slaveowners and the Iroquois might see him differently. Though we also shouldn’t romanticize how Native Americans fought their wars either.
Generally speaking statues aren’t about nuance. That is what is funny about Rod Dreher complaining about destroying our connection with history. Statues tell more about the people who erected the statue than they do about the person being honored. Maybe we should put up statues of iconoclasts tearing down statues next to the re- erected statues they tore down. Then we could have plaques explaining the motives of everyone, along with another plaque summarizing the life story, good and bad, of the person whose statue was torn down and the re- erected.
MkT— we moved to Memphis almost exactly when you did — in 1968. I lived my first 8 years in a Los Angeles suburb. I graduated HS in 77.
We just might get sick of being asked to answer for it.
We didn’t do it. Most of us appear to think it’s not a good thing to do. I’m not sure what else to say about it.
I certainly understand this feeling perfectly.
We just might get sick of being asked to answer for it.
We didn’t do it. Most of us appear to think it’s not a good thing to do. I’m not sure what else to say about it.
I certainly understand this feeling perfectly.
Mmy view is you shouldnt pull down a statue of someone if you dont know who they are, kinda questions the legitimacy of your vandalism as protest.
Mmy view is you shouldnt pull down a statue of someone if you dont know who they are, kinda questions the legitimacy of your vandalism as protest.
kinda questions the legitimacy of your vandalism as protest.
people are pissed.
.
every time i see one of those confederate statues here in NC, i try to imagine what they must symbolize for the descendants of slaves. what “heritage” are they celebrating?
and then i try to imagine what it must feel like for those descendants of slaves to be told that it’s really all about the dignity of the common man who was just honorably defending his home against invaders in a war he didn’t… yadayadayada.
and then i marvel at the fact that those descendants of slaves haven’t yet gone full Django and torn down every one of those statues then beat all their defenders to death with the debris.
such admirable restraint!
but yes, they should leave Grant alone.
kinda questions the legitimacy of your vandalism as protest.
people are pissed.
.
every time i see one of those confederate statues here in NC, i try to imagine what they must symbolize for the descendants of slaves. what “heritage” are they celebrating?
and then i try to imagine what it must feel like for those descendants of slaves to be told that it’s really all about the dignity of the common man who was just honorably defending his home against invaders in a war he didn’t… yadayadayada.
and then i marvel at the fact that those descendants of slaves haven’t yet gone full Django and torn down every one of those statues then beat all their defenders to death with the debris.
such admirable restraint!
but yes, they should leave Grant alone.
There arent any saints in this story, so you’re just picking a point in time to focus on.
I don’t disagree with much of anything in your 9:36.
The point in time I’m trying to focus on with reference to the statues is *now*. If people want to remove the statues *now*, IMO that’s completely legitimate. Whatever the intentions of the people who put them up were.
I certainly understand this feeling perfectly.
Fairly stated, well played, and noted.
There arent any saints in this story, so you’re just picking a point in time to focus on.
I don’t disagree with much of anything in your 9:36.
The point in time I’m trying to focus on with reference to the statues is *now*. If people want to remove the statues *now*, IMO that’s completely legitimate. Whatever the intentions of the people who put them up were.
I certainly understand this feeling perfectly.
Fairly stated, well played, and noted.
History is complicated. People are complicated. Some are or were better than others. No one is or was perfect.
How does forcing black people to see monuments to people who fought to preserve and expand the enslavement of black people help anyone understand any of that any better? Or, even if it does help people understand those things to some degree, is it worth the pain it causes?
Let’s not pretend these statues are anything but reminders that white people are still in charge.
History is complicated. People are complicated. Some are or were better than others. No one is or was perfect.
How does forcing black people to see monuments to people who fought to preserve and expand the enslavement of black people help anyone understand any of that any better? Or, even if it does help people understand those things to some degree, is it worth the pain it causes?
Let’s not pretend these statues are anything but reminders that white people are still in charge.
By the way, and contrary to what McKinney says upthread, FWIW I think (without extensive, or any, checking) that here on ObWi our rants have been reserved for RWNJs, the far-right, rightwingers (sometimes), alt-right, MAGAs, Trumpistas etc. I don’t believe (but am prepared to be contradicted) that we have ever ranted in any extreme way against “conservatives”, as McKinney has against the “woke left”, or “the left”. After all, “moderation” is our guiding principle!
By the way, and contrary to what McKinney says upthread, FWIW I think (without extensive, or any, checking) that here on ObWi our rants have been reserved for RWNJs, the far-right, rightwingers (sometimes), alt-right, MAGAs, Trumpistas etc. I don’t believe (but am prepared to be contradicted) that we have ever ranted in any extreme way against “conservatives”, as McKinney has against the “woke left”, or “the left”. After all, “moderation” is our guiding principle!
https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2010/06/17/lee-offered-command-of-the-union-army/
Some background, off the top of someone else’s head, regarding Robert E. Lee’s choice to not assume leadership of the Union Army, mentioned by Marty above, although with enough lack of detail (I get it; discussing history on cellphone keyboards is a little like trying to play a Bach keyboard piece on a tiny toy piano, which only Schroeder was able to pull off) that one might be lulled into thinking Lee’s decision not to entertain the offer was a mere sentimental paean to his hometown, Lake Wobegon, and now I’ve managed to slip in a reference to Garrison Keillor, who was unjustly, to my mind, canceled, when a little public shaming would have sufficed without disappearing his life’s work altogether.
I suppose history is bunk (Henry Ford, admirer of Adolf Hitler, which is bunk that happens to be true, but I drive neither a Ford nor a VW), but as bunk goes, it’s always a lot more complicated than most believe (and now I see hairshirthedonist made that point as I type).
How many statues of Abe Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant stand south of the Mason Dixon?
More to the point, if General Lee had accepted the Union Army sinecure, (leaving aside how that might have changed history, after all, he kicked Union butt for the first half of the Civil War and had his Army poised to overrun Washington D.C for an uncomfortably long time, and if he had defeated Lincoln, Hattie McDaniel might not have been offered the “Gone With The Wind” role, because California might have been a slave state even in 1940, given Confederate druthers, and no acting on her part would have been required or even requested; yes, she received an Oscar, but otherwise racist Hollywood, following America’s lead, stymied her career aspirations to play lead and other character roles. It’s a wonder Natalie Wood didn’t play her in “The Hattie McDaniel Story”), WHAT IF someone had tried to erect a statue of General Robert E. Lee, Commanding General of the Union Army, victor of the Civil War between the States, in the resurgent Jim Crow South (when it was blue before it was red, after the blue uniforms defeated the grey uniforms, but before the greys much later became red and accused we blue state liberals of being Capitol “R” Reds) along about 1908, maybe in Mississippi, at which point the South became permanently red in the face and the rest of us have suffered from the blues.
Can you lynch a statue? Or would you need a statue of a tree to lynch it from, the weight of bronze being what it is?
https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2010/06/17/lee-offered-command-of-the-union-army/
Some background, off the top of someone else’s head, regarding Robert E. Lee’s choice to not assume leadership of the Union Army, mentioned by Marty above, although with enough lack of detail (I get it; discussing history on cellphone keyboards is a little like trying to play a Bach keyboard piece on a tiny toy piano, which only Schroeder was able to pull off) that one might be lulled into thinking Lee’s decision not to entertain the offer was a mere sentimental paean to his hometown, Lake Wobegon, and now I’ve managed to slip in a reference to Garrison Keillor, who was unjustly, to my mind, canceled, when a little public shaming would have sufficed without disappearing his life’s work altogether.
I suppose history is bunk (Henry Ford, admirer of Adolf Hitler, which is bunk that happens to be true, but I drive neither a Ford nor a VW), but as bunk goes, it’s always a lot more complicated than most believe (and now I see hairshirthedonist made that point as I type).
How many statues of Abe Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant stand south of the Mason Dixon?
More to the point, if General Lee had accepted the Union Army sinecure, (leaving aside how that might have changed history, after all, he kicked Union butt for the first half of the Civil War and had his Army poised to overrun Washington D.C for an uncomfortably long time, and if he had defeated Lincoln, Hattie McDaniel might not have been offered the “Gone With The Wind” role, because California might have been a slave state even in 1940, given Confederate druthers, and no acting on her part would have been required or even requested; yes, she received an Oscar, but otherwise racist Hollywood, following America’s lead, stymied her career aspirations to play lead and other character roles. It’s a wonder Natalie Wood didn’t play her in “The Hattie McDaniel Story”), WHAT IF someone had tried to erect a statue of General Robert E. Lee, Commanding General of the Union Army, victor of the Civil War between the States, in the resurgent Jim Crow South (when it was blue before it was red, after the blue uniforms defeated the grey uniforms, but before the greys much later became red and accused we blue state liberals of being Capitol “R” Reds) along about 1908, maybe in Mississippi, at which point the South became permanently red in the face and the rest of us have suffered from the blues.
Can you lynch a statue? Or would you need a statue of a tree to lynch it from, the weight of bronze being what it is?
I generally understand the distinction McK was trying to make – if you take a strong public position on controversial topic, people may respond to that in ways that are harmful to you, and you need to accept that.
Yup.
If I recall correctly, a central tenet of Gandhian civil disobedience was the willingness to peacefully abide by the legal consequences (arrest, jail, worse) of said actions. How civil disobedience (blocking traffic, pulling down statues) is somehow seen as akin to “cancel culture” is a bit of a mystery to me.
Just thought I’d throw that out there.
And wrs.
I generally understand the distinction McK was trying to make – if you take a strong public position on controversial topic, people may respond to that in ways that are harmful to you, and you need to accept that.
Yup.
If I recall correctly, a central tenet of Gandhian civil disobedience was the willingness to peacefully abide by the legal consequences (arrest, jail, worse) of said actions. How civil disobedience (blocking traffic, pulling down statues) is somehow seen as akin to “cancel culture” is a bit of a mystery to me.
Just thought I’d throw that out there.
And wrs.
How many statues of Abe Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant stand south of the Mason Dixon?
The flying pundant arrives! Since the (east-west part of the) Mason-Dixon Line is the border between Maryland and Pennsylvania, you have to count the Lincoln Memorial and all the other statues in D.C.
But other than that, yes, statues and other monuments in the one-time Confederacy are pretty exclusively dedicated to glorifying said Confederacy.
How many statues of Abe Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant stand south of the Mason Dixon?
The flying pundant arrives! Since the (east-west part of the) Mason-Dixon Line is the border between Maryland and Pennsylvania, you have to count the Lincoln Memorial and all the other statues in D.C.
But other than that, yes, statues and other monuments in the one-time Confederacy are pretty exclusively dedicated to glorifying said Confederacy.
GFNTC, I cop to ranting against conservatives, but mostly I’m trying to bully the conservatives here into relinquishing the label, seeing as how its meaning has been utterly canceled by whatever these ilk are that call themselves the conservative movement.
Putin is a very conservative figure.
They may remove Teddy Roosevelt’s statue in front of the Museum of Natural History in New York City.
Conservative or Progressive?
Bleeding Heart Conservator and regulator of America’s priceless natural beauty, like Yellowstone Park, or the hotshot machismo lunkhead who shot every four-legged creature on sight that he came across, including one of the last bison, at the time?
GFNTC, I cop to ranting against conservatives, but mostly I’m trying to bully the conservatives here into relinquishing the label, seeing as how its meaning has been utterly canceled by whatever these ilk are that call themselves the conservative movement.
Putin is a very conservative figure.
They may remove Teddy Roosevelt’s statue in front of the Museum of Natural History in New York City.
Conservative or Progressive?
Bleeding Heart Conservator and regulator of America’s priceless natural beauty, like Yellowstone Park, or the hotshot machismo lunkhead who shot every four-legged creature on sight that he came across, including one of the last bison, at the time?
Donald: The “traitor” label doesn’t interest me. The Founding Fathers were traitors too and the Confederates saw themselves the same way. What makes the Confederate cause wholly wrong is that it was in defense of slavery.
Donald has it exactly right.
Marty, OTOH, seems to dispute the “wholly” bit. He writes: It is tiresome to be accused of bad faith because, in discussing the Civil War one doesnt feel the need to state the obvious.
Riiight. Everybody knows the Confederates rebelled in order to preserve slavery, so let’s discuss anything BUT that.
Marty continues: It seems to me that it is bad faith to pretend that slavery wasnt the order of the day in all of the US and many of the traders were from the North literally as the war was beginning.
Suuure. Slavery had as much popular support in the North as Abolition did in the South.
Marty again: Lincoln freed the slaves because they needed to be allowed to fight in the war and they were, by law in the North banned from being armed. There arent any saints in this story, so you’re just picking a point in time to focus on.
I don’t know what “point in time” Marty is focusing on, but here’s the operative part of the Emancipation Proclamation:
Lincoln proclaimed freedom for those slaves who were in Confederate hands. So he could arm them. Got it.
As for statues: how many were erected to commemorate the apolitical yeomen fighting to “protect their homes”, and how many to the generals who sent them off to places like Gettysburg PA?
Not for nothing, but what would Bill Barr have done had he been Lincoln’s AG in 1863?
–TP
Donald: The “traitor” label doesn’t interest me. The Founding Fathers were traitors too and the Confederates saw themselves the same way. What makes the Confederate cause wholly wrong is that it was in defense of slavery.
Donald has it exactly right.
Marty, OTOH, seems to dispute the “wholly” bit. He writes: It is tiresome to be accused of bad faith because, in discussing the Civil War one doesnt feel the need to state the obvious.
Riiight. Everybody knows the Confederates rebelled in order to preserve slavery, so let’s discuss anything BUT that.
Marty continues: It seems to me that it is bad faith to pretend that slavery wasnt the order of the day in all of the US and many of the traders were from the North literally as the war was beginning.
Suuure. Slavery had as much popular support in the North as Abolition did in the South.
Marty again: Lincoln freed the slaves because they needed to be allowed to fight in the war and they were, by law in the North banned from being armed. There arent any saints in this story, so you’re just picking a point in time to focus on.
I don’t know what “point in time” Marty is focusing on, but here’s the operative part of the Emancipation Proclamation:
Lincoln proclaimed freedom for those slaves who were in Confederate hands. So he could arm them. Got it.
As for statues: how many were erected to commemorate the apolitical yeomen fighting to “protect their homes”, and how many to the generals who sent them off to places like Gettysburg PA?
Not for nothing, but what would Bill Barr have done had he been Lincoln’s AG in 1863?
–TP
No one has erased Keillor’s work. Keillor has all the archives. Anyone who wants to can go and listen to his shows. MPR just cut ties and decided to stop covering up for him.
And it’s not like there was no cost to MPR for going against Keillor. There was plenty of cancel backlash and boycott action organized against MPR as well.
Keillor, Woody Allen, and Louis CK could all team up on a weekly creeper variety show. I’m sure it would be very popular in the more geriatric regions of Incelvania.
No one has erased Keillor’s work. Keillor has all the archives. Anyone who wants to can go and listen to his shows. MPR just cut ties and decided to stop covering up for him.
And it’s not like there was no cost to MPR for going against Keillor. There was plenty of cancel backlash and boycott action organized against MPR as well.
Keillor, Woody Allen, and Louis CK could all team up on a weekly creeper variety show. I’m sure it would be very popular in the more geriatric regions of Incelvania.
I’m more interested at the moment in McKinney’s assessment of Barr firing the US Attorney for the SDNY.
I know nothing of the backstory, but I assume that when someone gets fired in this administration, it’s tied into not making DT look good in some form or fashion.
every time i see one of those confederate statues here in NC, i try to imagine what they must symbolize for the descendants of slaves. what “heritage” are they celebrating?
and then i try to imagine what it must feel like for those descendants of slaves to be told that it’s really all about the dignity of the common man who was just honorably defending his home against invaders in a war he didn’t… yadayadayada.
I agree. What looks like just another statue to most white people must be–we assume, but I think it’s are reasonable assumption–not at all so benign, or just part of the background, to the African Americans.
The Civil War wasn’t: nascent ACLU members vs. white supremacists. But, if it wasn’t a war against slavery, it was in large measure a war to preserve slavery, or at least to remove northern input into the issue of slavery (pretty much the same, I suspect).
So, while I think I understand the statue issue (not being black, there is likely considerable added dimension), the statues are in the south. Yet, most of the shitty police work of concern is a northern phenomena (most, not all).
So, the symbolic battle today is largely in a region that did not spawn the current crisis. How do we connect the dots and when the dust settles, how much does this kind of symbolism move the needle in a useful way?
Put differently: if we fixed the criminal justice system overnight and removed every confederate or other related statue at the same time, what would change for AA’s and what else would be needed?
Maybe someone could write a post on this topic. I’m behind and apologize to everyone to whom I owe a response of some kind. Adieu.
I’m more interested at the moment in McKinney’s assessment of Barr firing the US Attorney for the SDNY.
I know nothing of the backstory, but I assume that when someone gets fired in this administration, it’s tied into not making DT look good in some form or fashion.
every time i see one of those confederate statues here in NC, i try to imagine what they must symbolize for the descendants of slaves. what “heritage” are they celebrating?
and then i try to imagine what it must feel like for those descendants of slaves to be told that it’s really all about the dignity of the common man who was just honorably defending his home against invaders in a war he didn’t… yadayadayada.
I agree. What looks like just another statue to most white people must be–we assume, but I think it’s are reasonable assumption–not at all so benign, or just part of the background, to the African Americans.
The Civil War wasn’t: nascent ACLU members vs. white supremacists. But, if it wasn’t a war against slavery, it was in large measure a war to preserve slavery, or at least to remove northern input into the issue of slavery (pretty much the same, I suspect).
So, while I think I understand the statue issue (not being black, there is likely considerable added dimension), the statues are in the south. Yet, most of the shitty police work of concern is a northern phenomena (most, not all).
So, the symbolic battle today is largely in a region that did not spawn the current crisis. How do we connect the dots and when the dust settles, how much does this kind of symbolism move the needle in a useful way?
Put differently: if we fixed the criminal justice system overnight and removed every confederate or other related statue at the same time, what would change for AA’s and what else would be needed?
Maybe someone could write a post on this topic. I’m behind and apologize to everyone to whom I owe a response of some kind. Adieu.
But, if it wasn’t a war against slavery, it was in large measure a war to preserve slavery, or at least to remove northern input into the issue of slavery (pretty much the same, I suspect).
The problem was this, with growing abolitionist sentiment in the North, esp. after the imposition of the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850, the South could only “preserve” slavery by expanding it to the western states. This was necessary because the South had to maintain its control of the federal government (all 3 branches) as it pretty had since the Founding. Absent western expansion of the ‘peculiar institution’, the handwriting was on the wall. Southern electoral votes would be diluted. The Senate would slip from the grip of the enslavers, and slavery, as an institution would be doomed.
So it definitely was all about slavery.
But, if it wasn’t a war against slavery, it was in large measure a war to preserve slavery, or at least to remove northern input into the issue of slavery (pretty much the same, I suspect).
The problem was this, with growing abolitionist sentiment in the North, esp. after the imposition of the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850, the South could only “preserve” slavery by expanding it to the western states. This was necessary because the South had to maintain its control of the federal government (all 3 branches) as it pretty had since the Founding. Absent western expansion of the ‘peculiar institution’, the handwriting was on the wall. Southern electoral votes would be diluted. The Senate would slip from the grip of the enslavers, and slavery, as an institution would be doomed.
So it definitely was all about slavery.
bobbyp is proving here that the past isn’t even past. Look at the Southern Strategy and you see that the voter suppression and electoral college gamesmanship is just the modern day skin that the Missouri Compromise wears.
bobbyp is proving here that the past isn’t even past. Look at the Southern Strategy and you see that the voter suppression and electoral college gamesmanship is just the modern day skin that the Missouri Compromise wears.
most of the people fighting the civil war did so out of a sense of duty to their home state.
Kinda’ beside the point. Many good Germans fought to defend their homes during the Allied onslaught 1942-1945, right? There are not any statues in Germany of Keitel or Jodl that I am aware of.
The political elites in said states explicitly undertook violet treason to preserve slavery. These “good folks” don’t get a pass because the went along and supplied cannon fodder to the Confederacy.
most of the people fighting the civil war did so out of a sense of duty to their home state.
Kinda’ beside the point. Many good Germans fought to defend their homes during the Allied onslaught 1942-1945, right? There are not any statues in Germany of Keitel or Jodl that I am aware of.
The political elites in said states explicitly undertook violet treason to preserve slavery. These “good folks” don’t get a pass because the went along and supplied cannon fodder to the Confederacy.
Yet, most of the shitty police work of concern is a northern phenomena (most, not all).
Is it that most of the shitty police work is in the north? Or just most of the cases (so far) which have been videoed and publicized? If I had to bet, I think I’d go with the latter.
Yet, most of the shitty police work of concern is a northern phenomena (most, not all).
Is it that most of the shitty police work is in the north? Or just most of the cases (so far) which have been videoed and publicized? If I had to bet, I think I’d go with the latter.
Add in vigilantism, consider the problem on a per capita basis, and I’m thinking the Northern phenomenon mostly goes away. Yes, the current unrest is primarily in response to police actions, but there’s a broader consideration of racism more generally.
I also think that, looking back a few more years, you’ll find plenty of examples of bad, racially biased policing in the South. I doubt the distribution is imbalanced in a statistically significant way, especially if we’re not just talking about killings. Just by way of example, think about the crap that went on in NOLA during Katrina.
Add in vigilantism, consider the problem on a per capita basis, and I’m thinking the Northern phenomenon mostly goes away. Yes, the current unrest is primarily in response to police actions, but there’s a broader consideration of racism more generally.
I also think that, looking back a few more years, you’ll find plenty of examples of bad, racially biased policing in the South. I doubt the distribution is imbalanced in a statistically significant way, especially if we’re not just talking about killings. Just by way of example, think about the crap that went on in NOLA during Katrina.
Is it that most of the shitty police work is in the north? Or just most of the cases (so far) which have been videoed and publicized? If I had to bet, I think I’d go with the latter.
Maybe, but I’d bet the other way. In TX, most of our urban PD’s reflect the community diversity-wise. This militates against the conspiracy of silence problem in the more majority-pale PD’s. San Antonio, Dallas and Houston are in Blue counties. Historically, the Dallas and Houston DA offices were very Republican “law and order”, so probably not very diversity-sensitive. That is either changing or has changed. The point is, that a lot of the raw material that frequently exacerbates racial tensions is no longer present in TX (at least).
Is it that most of the shitty police work is in the north? Or just most of the cases (so far) which have been videoed and publicized? If I had to bet, I think I’d go with the latter.
Maybe, but I’d bet the other way. In TX, most of our urban PD’s reflect the community diversity-wise. This militates against the conspiracy of silence problem in the more majority-pale PD’s. San Antonio, Dallas and Houston are in Blue counties. Historically, the Dallas and Houston DA offices were very Republican “law and order”, so probably not very diversity-sensitive. That is either changing or has changed. The point is, that a lot of the raw material that frequently exacerbates racial tensions is no longer present in TX (at least).
The largest base of the German Army is the Field Marshal Rommel Barracks in Augustdorf. That seems to me to be a pretty close parallel to Fort Bragg in North Carolina.
Erwin Rommel was a brilliant general, whereas Braxton Bragg was poor, but so what.
The largest base of the German Army is the Field Marshal Rommel Barracks in Augustdorf. That seems to me to be a pretty close parallel to Fort Bragg in North Carolina.
Erwin Rommel was a brilliant general, whereas Braxton Bragg was poor, but so what.
So, for one, Rommel was never in rebellion against his government. Perhaps, considering also his service pre-Third Reich, that made the diffetence.
So, for one, Rommel was never in rebellion against his government. Perhaps, considering also his service pre-Third Reich, that made the diffetence.
I thought that Rommel was executed by Hitler for not stopping the Normandy invasion, but a quick trip to Wikipedia tells me that though this wasn’t the case, he may have been involved in the plot to assasinate Hitler. Maybe Hartmut can find out what was the discussion about naming the base.
I thought that Rommel was executed by Hitler for not stopping the Normandy invasion, but a quick trip to Wikipedia tells me that though this wasn’t the case, he may have been involved in the plot to assasinate Hitler. Maybe Hartmut can find out what was the discussion about naming the base.
With regards to Texas, this study from Houston
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html
is interesting. In the most unbelievable development, the methodology was attacked (imagine that!)
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/upshot/roland-fryer-answers-reader-questions-about-his-police-force-study.html
One way to interpret this is that diverse recruitment is a way of reducing the more egregious events, but doesn’t effect the smaller events. Remember that Sandra Bland was not killed by police, she committed suicide in her cell after being stopped for what was essentially an induced violation of the law.
I hope this isn’t taken as evidence of my disdain of conservatives for making this observation.
With regards to Texas, this study from Houston
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html
is interesting. In the most unbelievable development, the methodology was attacked (imagine that!)
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/upshot/roland-fryer-answers-reader-questions-about-his-police-force-study.html
One way to interpret this is that diverse recruitment is a way of reducing the more egregious events, but doesn’t effect the smaller events. Remember that Sandra Bland was not killed by police, she committed suicide in her cell after being stopped for what was essentially an induced violation of the law.
I hope this isn’t taken as evidence of my disdain of conservatives for making this observation.
Sandra Bland was arrested by a Hispanic Department of Public Safety (Tx Highway Patrol) Trooper and put in jail in Waller County, northwest of Harris County (Houston). Neither Houston nor Harris County played any role in Ms. Bland’s death. The Trooper was charged with perjury (dropped in exchange for his agreement to permanently leave law enforcement) and Waller County paid 1.9M in a wrongful death suit. Historically African American Prairie View A&M is in Waller County.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sandra_Bland
Sandra Bland was arrested by a Hispanic Department of Public Safety (Tx Highway Patrol) Trooper and put in jail in Waller County, northwest of Harris County (Houston). Neither Houston nor Harris County played any role in Ms. Bland’s death. The Trooper was charged with perjury (dropped in exchange for his agreement to permanently leave law enforcement) and Waller County paid 1.9M in a wrongful death suit. Historically African American Prairie View A&M is in Waller County.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sandra_Bland
My understanding is that Rommel was either involved with the plot to kill Hitler or was implicated in it. His standing in the popular German imagination was such that the Nazis didn’t want to execute him in an obvious way, so they gave him the option of suicide.
Which, he chose.
They made up a story that he died from combat injuries.
A complicated case. Whether Germany wants to name a base after him or not is not my hash to settle.
At this point, some 75 years later, I hope we can all agree that, regardless of the personal qualities of Rommel, the Nazi regime was a cruel and criminal one.
At this point, some 155 years later, I hope can all agree that the CSA was a blight on this nation’s history, and a regime that deserved to be brought to an end, through force if necessary.
I recognize that slavery was not unique to the American south, and I recognize that many Northern fortunes were made off the back of black people. But I also recognize that the CSA was about taking an immoral institution and not just embracing it, but building a nation and a society around it.
Slavery was the raison d’etre of the CSA. It deserved to be defeated and annihilated.
My understanding is that Rommel was either involved with the plot to kill Hitler or was implicated in it. His standing in the popular German imagination was such that the Nazis didn’t want to execute him in an obvious way, so they gave him the option of suicide.
Which, he chose.
They made up a story that he died from combat injuries.
A complicated case. Whether Germany wants to name a base after him or not is not my hash to settle.
At this point, some 75 years later, I hope we can all agree that, regardless of the personal qualities of Rommel, the Nazi regime was a cruel and criminal one.
At this point, some 155 years later, I hope can all agree that the CSA was a blight on this nation’s history, and a regime that deserved to be brought to an end, through force if necessary.
I recognize that slavery was not unique to the American south, and I recognize that many Northern fortunes were made off the back of black people. But I also recognize that the CSA was about taking an immoral institution and not just embracing it, but building a nation and a society around it.
Slavery was the raison d’etre of the CSA. It deserved to be defeated and annihilated.
Thanks McT, I see that my juxtaposition unfairly linked Houston and Sandra Bland, which was not intended and I apologize for that.
I simply chose an example that occurred in Texas to illustrate my argument that police shootings are the larger events, but the more common, every day events may be the issue. From the second link I posted
Mr. Fryer wonders if the divide between lethal force — where he did not find racial disparities — and nonlethal force — where he did — might be related to costs. Officers face costs, legal and psychological, when they unnecessarily fire their guns. But excessive use of lesser force is rarely tracked or punished. “No officer has ever told me that putting their hands on inner-city youth is a life-changing event,” he said.
For Mr. Fryer, who has spent much of his career studying ways society can close the racial achievement gap, the failure to punish excessive everyday force is an important contributor to young black disillusionment.
“Who the hell wants to have a police officer put their hand on them or yell and scream at them? It’s an awful experience,” he said. “Every black man I know has had this experience. Every one of them. It is hard to believe that the world is your oyster if the police can rough you up without punishment. And when I talked to minority youth, almost every single one of them mentions lower-level uses of force as the reason why they believe the world is corrupt.”
So returning to Sandra Bland, you’d agree that rural PD’s in Texas may still have a problem? And if they do, should they be required to have some sort of mandatory diversity? Or would it be unfair to force them to hire people based on that criteria?
I understand that you may be busy with your work and not be able to answer this, I certainly understand, so nothing is attached if you fail to respond to this and turn up later to answer some other question. We all have lives outside the blog. (I think)
Thanks McT, I see that my juxtaposition unfairly linked Houston and Sandra Bland, which was not intended and I apologize for that.
I simply chose an example that occurred in Texas to illustrate my argument that police shootings are the larger events, but the more common, every day events may be the issue. From the second link I posted
Mr. Fryer wonders if the divide between lethal force — where he did not find racial disparities — and nonlethal force — where he did — might be related to costs. Officers face costs, legal and psychological, when they unnecessarily fire their guns. But excessive use of lesser force is rarely tracked or punished. “No officer has ever told me that putting their hands on inner-city youth is a life-changing event,” he said.
For Mr. Fryer, who has spent much of his career studying ways society can close the racial achievement gap, the failure to punish excessive everyday force is an important contributor to young black disillusionment.
“Who the hell wants to have a police officer put their hand on them or yell and scream at them? It’s an awful experience,” he said. “Every black man I know has had this experience. Every one of them. It is hard to believe that the world is your oyster if the police can rough you up without punishment. And when I talked to minority youth, almost every single one of them mentions lower-level uses of force as the reason why they believe the world is corrupt.”
So returning to Sandra Bland, you’d agree that rural PD’s in Texas may still have a problem? And if they do, should they be required to have some sort of mandatory diversity? Or would it be unfair to force them to hire people based on that criteria?
I understand that you may be busy with your work and not be able to answer this, I certainly understand, so nothing is attached if you fail to respond to this and turn up later to answer some other question. We all have lives outside the blog. (I think)
the South could only “preserve” slavery by expanding it to the western states.
This is true, of course, but it is interesting that the South was actively working on annexing and granting statehood to Cuba, as that too would add a slave state.
the South could only “preserve” slavery by expanding it to the western states.
This is true, of course, but it is interesting that the South was actively working on annexing and granting statehood to Cuba, as that too would add a slave state.
I’m also not sure if Jacksonville (not in Texas, though there is probably a Jacksonville somewhere in Texas) qualifies as an urban PD that has a diverse police force, but this Propublica report about enforcing jaywalking laws may be of interest
https://features.propublica.org/walking-while-black/jacksonville-pedestrian-violations-racial-profiling/
I’m also not sure if Jacksonville (not in Texas, though there is probably a Jacksonville somewhere in Texas) qualifies as an urban PD that has a diverse police force, but this Propublica report about enforcing jaywalking laws may be of interest
https://features.propublica.org/walking-while-black/jacksonville-pedestrian-violations-racial-profiling/
But Bernard, that was long before the xenophobic right (at least in the South) was on about Hispanics.
But Bernard, that was long before the xenophobic right (at least in the South) was on about Hispanics.
McTX: I assume that when someone gets fired in this administration, it’s tied into not making DT look good in some form or fashion.
Of course. Just like in some commie socialist dictatorship. Which is what woke libruls are on the verge of foisting on to the US. Except the GOP beat them to it.
–TP
McTX: I assume that when someone gets fired in this administration, it’s tied into not making DT look good in some form or fashion.
Of course. Just like in some commie socialist dictatorship. Which is what woke libruls are on the verge of foisting on to the US. Except the GOP beat them to it.
–TP
So returning to Sandra Bland, you’d agree that rural PD’s in Texas may still have a problem? And if they do, should they be required to have some sort of mandatory diversity? Or would it be unfair to force them to hire people based on that criteria?
These are fair and interesting questions. First, our DPS Troopers are, in theory, the best, most sophisticated law enforcement we have. Most Troopers I’ve run into are pretty solid citizens; however, in 2012, I tried a case in Austin County TX in which it was pretty clear that a DPS Trooper planted evidence of alcohol in my client’s, an African American, after my client–who was intoxicated, but it was very complicated–crossed the middle line and killed a locally beloved kindergarten teacher (yes, the jury clobbered us, but I beat the demand by millions, so kind of a win).
If you go to South Texas, most of our rural PD’s and Sherriff’s offices are Hispanic up to 95% and almost never less than 80%. If you go into East Texas, it varies county by county. Rusk County, for example, seems to be–for East Texas–pretty forward looking diversity-wise, e.g. the District Judge refers most major mediations to a very capable AA attorney who formerly resided in Rusk County but moved to Dallas. I’m guessing other East Texas counties have a way to go. East Texas is pretty much an extension of western Louisiana, if that helps in assessing the locale.
West Texas up through the Panhandle has a large Hispanic population and is generally diverse in law enforcement.
As for mandating diverse hiring, there are a lot of angles to that. First, you’d need to show a specific need or problem and that is going to be fairly hard to find most places that I go (my docket runs from East to South Texas, Austin, Waco, Dallas and occasionally Ft. Worth. The bad old days of department-wide bad behavior started turning around in the late 70’s in Houston and in the 80’s and 90’s elsewhere (not a high-speed turn, but a turn nonetheless). Second, you’d have to find minorities in such a place who are both qualified and willing to serve with people who–we are imagining a place at this point–don’t want to work with them. That may be a hard find.
I’m not opposed to aggressively encouraging diversity hiring at the governmental level if there is strong evidence of institutional or departmental exclusionary hiring practices. You could find that back in the day. There has been a lot of change in Texas, so it would probably be a challenge to find a county with a population over 20,000 that wasn’t reasonably diverse at the law enforcement level.
So returning to Sandra Bland, you’d agree that rural PD’s in Texas may still have a problem? And if they do, should they be required to have some sort of mandatory diversity? Or would it be unfair to force them to hire people based on that criteria?
These are fair and interesting questions. First, our DPS Troopers are, in theory, the best, most sophisticated law enforcement we have. Most Troopers I’ve run into are pretty solid citizens; however, in 2012, I tried a case in Austin County TX in which it was pretty clear that a DPS Trooper planted evidence of alcohol in my client’s, an African American, after my client–who was intoxicated, but it was very complicated–crossed the middle line and killed a locally beloved kindergarten teacher (yes, the jury clobbered us, but I beat the demand by millions, so kind of a win).
If you go to South Texas, most of our rural PD’s and Sherriff’s offices are Hispanic up to 95% and almost never less than 80%. If you go into East Texas, it varies county by county. Rusk County, for example, seems to be–for East Texas–pretty forward looking diversity-wise, e.g. the District Judge refers most major mediations to a very capable AA attorney who formerly resided in Rusk County but moved to Dallas. I’m guessing other East Texas counties have a way to go. East Texas is pretty much an extension of western Louisiana, if that helps in assessing the locale.
West Texas up through the Panhandle has a large Hispanic population and is generally diverse in law enforcement.
As for mandating diverse hiring, there are a lot of angles to that. First, you’d need to show a specific need or problem and that is going to be fairly hard to find most places that I go (my docket runs from East to South Texas, Austin, Waco, Dallas and occasionally Ft. Worth. The bad old days of department-wide bad behavior started turning around in the late 70’s in Houston and in the 80’s and 90’s elsewhere (not a high-speed turn, but a turn nonetheless). Second, you’d have to find minorities in such a place who are both qualified and willing to serve with people who–we are imagining a place at this point–don’t want to work with them. That may be a hard find.
I’m not opposed to aggressively encouraging diversity hiring at the governmental level if there is strong evidence of institutional or departmental exclusionary hiring practices. You could find that back in the day. There has been a lot of change in Texas, so it would probably be a challenge to find a county with a population over 20,000 that wasn’t reasonably diverse at the law enforcement level.
the South was actively working on annexing and granting statehood to Cuba
There were plans to annex the entire Caribbean, including all or part of Mexico, Central American, and the northern coast of South America.
TBH, this was really a logical extension of the slave-based plantation model that was, by that point, hundreds of years old.
But it was, nonetheless, a model that deserved to die.
the South was actively working on annexing and granting statehood to Cuba
There were plans to annex the entire Caribbean, including all or part of Mexico, Central American, and the northern coast of South America.
TBH, this was really a logical extension of the slave-based plantation model that was, by that point, hundreds of years old.
But it was, nonetheless, a model that deserved to die.
What do black people want? I dare say they want the same things that white people do.
Maybe somebody should ask them.
We should adopt public policies shaped to achieve those goals. It’s not rocket science.
What do black people want? I dare say they want the same things that white people do.
Maybe somebody should ask them.
We should adopt public policies shaped to achieve those goals. It’s not rocket science.
Rommel is the exception that proves the rule…jeez, didn’t any of you ever see James Mason’s portrayal? Surely wj has seen it, but I guess he forgot. Happens to us older types. Just remember that, OK?
Rommel is the exception that proves the rule…jeez, didn’t any of you ever see James Mason’s portrayal? Surely wj has seen it, but I guess he forgot. Happens to us older types. Just remember that, OK?
House leadership is coming around….Just another reminder that politicians do not lead, they jump to the head of the parade.
This is where widespread protests play a critical role in social and political change. Just sayin’.
House leadership is coming around….Just another reminder that politicians do not lead, they jump to the head of the parade.
This is where widespread protests play a critical role in social and political change. Just sayin’.
Personnel diversity in police departments is not the only answer, but would be a big step. Like most areas, Texas has done well in places, and not so well in others.
Personnel diversity in police departments is not the only answer, but would be a big step. Like most areas, Texas has done well in places, and not so well in others.
Rommel gets no sympathy from me.
The whole notion that the Wehrmacht was clean is absurd. The generals knew what was going on, what they were fighting for, and it wasn’t the wellbeing of ordinary Germans.
And what if they didn’t? If I break into a house, intending only burglary, but invite my homicidal friend along, I’m still responsible for my friend’s crimes.
Resistance in 1944 is not exculpatory. I don’t think it was based on revulsion at the Nazi regime’s crimes. Rather, highly capable professional military officers saw that the war was lost, and wanted to get the best deal they could, for Germany and, no doubt, themselves.
That doesn’t absolve them.
Rommel gets no sympathy from me.
The whole notion that the Wehrmacht was clean is absurd. The generals knew what was going on, what they were fighting for, and it wasn’t the wellbeing of ordinary Germans.
And what if they didn’t? If I break into a house, intending only burglary, but invite my homicidal friend along, I’m still responsible for my friend’s crimes.
Resistance in 1944 is not exculpatory. I don’t think it was based on revulsion at the Nazi regime’s crimes. Rather, highly capable professional military officers saw that the war was lost, and wanted to get the best deal they could, for Germany and, no doubt, themselves.
That doesn’t absolve them.
Thanks to McT for posting the wikipedia link. I see that Encina, the person who pulled Sandra Bland over, was a DPS Trooper and Hispanic. He was dismissed from the force (with an agreement never to work in law enforcement) for perjury. I don’t say this to dispute his statement that First, our DPS Troopers are, in theory, the best, most sophisticated law enforcement we have. Most Troopers I’ve run into are pretty solid citizens
Just want to underline what bobbyp says about diversity being a big step, but not the only answer.
Thanks to McT for posting the wikipedia link. I see that Encina, the person who pulled Sandra Bland over, was a DPS Trooper and Hispanic. He was dismissed from the force (with an agreement never to work in law enforcement) for perjury. I don’t say this to dispute his statement that First, our DPS Troopers are, in theory, the best, most sophisticated law enforcement we have. Most Troopers I’ve run into are pretty solid citizens
Just want to underline what bobbyp says about diversity being a big step, but not the only answer.
The whole notion that the Wehrmacht was clean is absurd.
bobbyp searches horizon…sees nobody making this claim, sniffs for scent of burning straw, but agrees with Bernard anyway. Discretion is the better part of valor here.
My point is fairly simple, the nazis were a horrible terrible regime that deserved to be stamped out. Same for the Confederacy. But you do not see statues all over Germany of nazis (also google Rommel myth, just for fun…lot of Cold War politics involved it would seem). You do (or perhaps did) see statues all over the place of Confederate politicos and generals.
The question is: Why the difference? If both are terrible, why was one contemptible regime honored, but one was not? Why do we have an outfit called the “Daughters of the Confederacy” but not “Daughters of the Thousand Years Reich”?
But I hear those types are making a comeback, too.
Like the walking dead, they never rest.
The whole notion that the Wehrmacht was clean is absurd.
bobbyp searches horizon…sees nobody making this claim, sniffs for scent of burning straw, but agrees with Bernard anyway. Discretion is the better part of valor here.
My point is fairly simple, the nazis were a horrible terrible regime that deserved to be stamped out. Same for the Confederacy. But you do not see statues all over Germany of nazis (also google Rommel myth, just for fun…lot of Cold War politics involved it would seem). You do (or perhaps did) see statues all over the place of Confederate politicos and generals.
The question is: Why the difference? If both are terrible, why was one contemptible regime honored, but one was not? Why do we have an outfit called the “Daughters of the Confederacy” but not “Daughters of the Thousand Years Reich”?
But I hear those types are making a comeback, too.
Like the walking dead, they never rest.
bobbyp searches horizon…sees nobody making this claim, sniffs for scent of burning straw,
Did bobbyp search for “almost clean,” “fighting for the heimat,” “didn’t know,” “loyal Germans,” etc.?
I think there is a myth, perhaps more widely subscribed to in the US than in Germany, of a sort of innocent Wehrmacht – not unlike the Confederate foot soldiers.
bobbyp searches horizon…sees nobody making this claim, sniffs for scent of burning straw,
Did bobbyp search for “almost clean,” “fighting for the heimat,” “didn’t know,” “loyal Germans,” etc.?
I think there is a myth, perhaps more widely subscribed to in the US than in Germany, of a sort of innocent Wehrmacht – not unlike the Confederate foot soldiers.
byomtov,
Yes, agree, but not on this thread that I am aware of. That’s how I read it. Nobody here is pushing that position. Did I misunderstand? Happens. My apologies if that is the case.
Confederate “good soldiers just defending their homes”…pffffft. cf Marty assertion above…. Lost Cause sympathizing bullshit if you ask me….lifted right out of DW Griffith’s “Birth of a Nation” contemptible racist memes.
See also Rommel myth I mentioned. Interesting reading.
byomtov,
Yes, agree, but not on this thread that I am aware of. That’s how I read it. Nobody here is pushing that position. Did I misunderstand? Happens. My apologies if that is the case.
Confederate “good soldiers just defending their homes”…pffffft. cf Marty assertion above…. Lost Cause sympathizing bullshit if you ask me….lifted right out of DW Griffith’s “Birth of a Nation” contemptible racist memes.
See also Rommel myth I mentioned. Interesting reading.
I think there is a myth, perhaps more widely subscribed to in the US than in Germany, of a sort of innocent Wehrmacht – not unlike the Confederate foot soldiers.
There absolutely is that myth. I went to Normandy a few years ago to see the cemetery there, and worked with a guide. He was very good in many ways – I told him that my father flew as an escort on D-Day, and he helped me pinpoint some of the things he did after reviewing some of the notes that I had given him. But he was very much about saying that the Wehrmacht were just patriotic Germans. I don’t know any Wehrmacht veterans, most of whom are long since dead (as are Confederate soldiers). I just know that we, those of us in the USA here and now, have to take a grave look at ourselves. We know too much to be innocent. With all of this history to teach us, we know better.
We must not be collaborators with regimes based on hatred and lies.
I think there is a myth, perhaps more widely subscribed to in the US than in Germany, of a sort of innocent Wehrmacht – not unlike the Confederate foot soldiers.
There absolutely is that myth. I went to Normandy a few years ago to see the cemetery there, and worked with a guide. He was very good in many ways – I told him that my father flew as an escort on D-Day, and he helped me pinpoint some of the things he did after reviewing some of the notes that I had given him. But he was very much about saying that the Wehrmacht were just patriotic Germans. I don’t know any Wehrmacht veterans, most of whom are long since dead (as are Confederate soldiers). I just know that we, those of us in the USA here and now, have to take a grave look at ourselves. We know too much to be innocent. With all of this history to teach us, we know better.
We must not be collaborators with regimes based on hatred and lies.
Rommel gets no sympathy from me.
Nor from me, FWIW.
Even in the 30’s, there were Germans – a lot of Germans – who knew the Nazis were a freaking horror show. A lot of them gave their lives to make that point.
Rommel did not.
Most people identify with wherever it was that they were born and raised, and have some basic sense of loyalty to that place and that context.
But that really has to take a back seat to the simple and fundamental ethics of seeing other people *as people*. And acting accordingly.
If you fail to do that, it’s kind of on you. I think, anyway. If you fail to do that, you can sort of try to blame it on historical circumstance, but at some point you’re gonna be accountable to your own conscience. Or lack thereof.
Rommel gets no sympathy from me.
Nor from me, FWIW.
Even in the 30’s, there were Germans – a lot of Germans – who knew the Nazis were a freaking horror show. A lot of them gave their lives to make that point.
Rommel did not.
Most people identify with wherever it was that they were born and raised, and have some basic sense of loyalty to that place and that context.
But that really has to take a back seat to the simple and fundamental ethics of seeing other people *as people*. And acting accordingly.
If you fail to do that, it’s kind of on you. I think, anyway. If you fail to do that, you can sort of try to blame it on historical circumstance, but at some point you’re gonna be accountable to your own conscience. Or lack thereof.
Some of our greatest living patriots loved home and hearth so much they developed anal cysts from sitting pantsless in their La-Z-Boy commando chairs and somehow missed every war they themselves harangued the rest of us to spill blood and waste the country’s treasure for.
World War III with China is being ginned up from the seats of pathetic power as we speak and the usual cowardly 4-F gippers will be full-throated with lusty war hate from the safety of their broadcast studios, editorial boards, and their mother’s blogging-equipped basements.
Tens of millions of human beings will be slaughtered, including in the so-called American homeland.
It is deliberate, with malice aforethought. We could stop it now.
But Rush Limbaugh is faking terminal lung cancer and he certainly isn’t going to miss demagoguing this next worldwide conflagration and calling anyone who objects a Chink-loving anti-American traitor, so we must soldier on.
We won’t stop it. Our sentimental American natures keen for a big fucking war to protect sis, and Fido, and Mamaw, and take our minds off the American way of bullshit.
There are dozens of accounts of the pointless mass murder in World War I, which lovers of hearth and home in the great cultural capitols of Europe gleefully enlisted for.
You can still smell the rotting human meat on the battlefields.
They had an American Flu that time around, but we made the Spaniards take the rap, because America just loves taking responsibility.
Just fucking shoot me.
Some of our greatest living patriots loved home and hearth so much they developed anal cysts from sitting pantsless in their La-Z-Boy commando chairs and somehow missed every war they themselves harangued the rest of us to spill blood and waste the country’s treasure for.
World War III with China is being ginned up from the seats of pathetic power as we speak and the usual cowardly 4-F gippers will be full-throated with lusty war hate from the safety of their broadcast studios, editorial boards, and their mother’s blogging-equipped basements.
Tens of millions of human beings will be slaughtered, including in the so-called American homeland.
It is deliberate, with malice aforethought. We could stop it now.
But Rush Limbaugh is faking terminal lung cancer and he certainly isn’t going to miss demagoguing this next worldwide conflagration and calling anyone who objects a Chink-loving anti-American traitor, so we must soldier on.
We won’t stop it. Our sentimental American natures keen for a big fucking war to protect sis, and Fido, and Mamaw, and take our minds off the American way of bullshit.
There are dozens of accounts of the pointless mass murder in World War I, which lovers of hearth and home in the great cultural capitols of Europe gleefully enlisted for.
You can still smell the rotting human meat on the battlefields.
They had an American Flu that time around, but we made the Spaniards take the rap, because America just loves taking responsibility.
Just fucking shoot me.
Why the difference? If both are terrible, why was one contemptible regime honored, but one was not?
Because in one case, the victors were not able to force reform (beyond the minimum of no longer legalizing slavery) on the defeated. In the other, perhaps having learned from their mistake, they were willing and able to do a complete makeover. It makes a difference if you get a couple of generations in a row which are fed something very different from glorification of their ancestors’ so-noble Lost Cause. Just a thought.
Why the difference? If both are terrible, why was one contemptible regime honored, but one was not?
Because in one case, the victors were not able to force reform (beyond the minimum of no longer legalizing slavery) on the defeated. In the other, perhaps having learned from their mistake, they were willing and able to do a complete makeover. It makes a difference if you get a couple of generations in a row which are fed something very different from glorification of their ancestors’ so-noble Lost Cause. Just a thought.
Jesus Christ!
Jesus Christ!
Nicely played, Charles!
Spreading out from those who were actually whites enslaving and/or oppressing blacks was entirely predictable. Just as it is entirely predictable that such calls will be counterproductive.
Some people, on the left just as on the right, are such blinkered true-believers that they are their own worst enemies. (Outraged as both would be at the suggestion.)
Nicely played, Charles!
Spreading out from those who were actually whites enslaving and/or oppressing blacks was entirely predictable. Just as it is entirely predictable that such calls will be counterproductive.
Some people, on the left just as on the right, are such blinkered true-believers that they are their own worst enemies. (Outraged as both would be at the suggestion.)
Jesus H. Christ, son of Joseph and Mary Christ, may have been an itinerant Jewish preacher with Semitic features, but Jesus Our Lord and Savior was the Son of God. And everybody knows God was (still is, I suppose) an old white guy. So the sculptors and the painters had no choice; they could not pull a Kaepernick by respectfully portraying Him “realistically” and expect to not be cancelled.
I have to assume that very, very few statues of Jesus, white or otherwise, are on public property in the US. If any do exist, I’d remove them on 1st Amendment grounds, not tear them down. That would still be labelled a “war on Christianity” by the usual suspects, of course.
–TP
Jesus H. Christ, son of Joseph and Mary Christ, may have been an itinerant Jewish preacher with Semitic features, but Jesus Our Lord and Savior was the Son of God. And everybody knows God was (still is, I suppose) an old white guy. So the sculptors and the painters had no choice; they could not pull a Kaepernick by respectfully portraying Him “realistically” and expect to not be cancelled.
I have to assume that very, very few statues of Jesus, white or otherwise, are on public property in the US. If any do exist, I’d remove them on 1st Amendment grounds, not tear them down. That would still be labelled a “war on Christianity” by the usual suspects, of course.
–TP
I generally understand the distinction McK was trying to make – if you take a strong public position on controversial topic, people may respond to that in ways that are harmful to you, and you need to accept that.
Indeed. In Kaepernick’s case the harm was exacerbated by the fact that his employer and enforcer of political uniformity is the the only game in town – birthed with an antitrust exemption and massively subsidized by taxpayers, who probably make a larger financial contribution to the organization than the ticket buyers.
And because there was a minimization of the harms to the Dixie Chicks upthread, I’ll note they were subject to radio and awards blacklists, bulldozing of their records, death threats, vandalism and demands in a national television interview that they grovel and show genuine contrition for the crime of mildly expressed disapproval of Dear Leader.
Consequences which they probably should have anticipated, seem to have an accepted, but which are still regrettable in my opinion.
But it seems the thread has largely moved on, as shall I.
I generally understand the distinction McK was trying to make – if you take a strong public position on controversial topic, people may respond to that in ways that are harmful to you, and you need to accept that.
Indeed. In Kaepernick’s case the harm was exacerbated by the fact that his employer and enforcer of political uniformity is the the only game in town – birthed with an antitrust exemption and massively subsidized by taxpayers, who probably make a larger financial contribution to the organization than the ticket buyers.
And because there was a minimization of the harms to the Dixie Chicks upthread, I’ll note they were subject to radio and awards blacklists, bulldozing of their records, death threats, vandalism and demands in a national television interview that they grovel and show genuine contrition for the crime of mildly expressed disapproval of Dear Leader.
Consequences which they probably should have anticipated, seem to have an accepted, but which are still regrettable in my opinion.
But it seems the thread has largely moved on, as shall I.
Because in one case, the victors were not able to force reform (beyond the minimum of no longer legalizing slavery) on the defeated.
So why were the victors (the Union) not able to “force reform” as apparently the Allies were able to do in West Germany in the late 40’s?
Because in one case, the victors were not able to force reform (beyond the minimum of no longer legalizing slavery) on the defeated.
So why were the victors (the Union) not able to “force reform” as apparently the Allies were able to do in West Germany in the late 40’s?
The Allies did not really change the German mindset after WW2 except superficially. That took another generation of living in peace and growing prosperity in a stable more-or-less democratic state (Western Germany at least) and a generation of young people born after the war.
The recipe was to shift all the blame for the lost war and the atrocities (downplayed as far as possible) to a few bad (and by then dead) people who also did the really nasty things in secret, so no one else knew about them.
The average German just realized that playing along promised much more than sticking to a lost cause (with one exception: getting the territory lost to (mainly) Poland back one day).
The ‘clean Wehrmacht’ myth was an important part of the ‘just a few bad people’ consent. The military resistance against Hitler was almost the only one recognized in Western Germany, both to exclude any leftist movement and to support the second myth that only the military had the power to do anything (while the average German was helpless and thus innocent).
German rearmament also needed a ‘tradition’ to adhere to. Neither Prussia nor the Imperial Army were suitable, so it had to be the Wehrmacht (honestly defeated by overwhelming force). The new German war movies that appeared during the discussion about rearmament and creating a conscription army were nearly indistinguishable from those produced during the war (removing a few scenes with the token evil Nazi character and the difference disappears completely).
Naming barracks, ships* etc. after popular Wehrmacht guys was part of that propaganda.
Rommel was just the most prominent example.
It has been said that Rommel was just lucky to never be where atrocities were SOP, so he could afford to stay clean, and became a martyr just in time.
The plans the military resistance had for Germany were not liberal in any form and had more in common with the 2nd Reich and the transition was to be a benign military dictatorship under another name (potentially with Rommel as the new Hindenburg).
That the myth was not dead became visible in the context of the ‘crimes of the Wehrmacht’ exhibition in 1995.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmachtsausstellung
I could proceed but I have some duties to attend to right now, so, if called for, I may do so later.
*the first three guided missile destroyers were named after Rommel, Lütjens (admiral on the battleship Bismarck) and Mölders (a Luftwaffe ace) to represent all three parts of the Wehrmacht.
The Allies did not really change the German mindset after WW2 except superficially. That took another generation of living in peace and growing prosperity in a stable more-or-less democratic state (Western Germany at least) and a generation of young people born after the war.
The recipe was to shift all the blame for the lost war and the atrocities (downplayed as far as possible) to a few bad (and by then dead) people who also did the really nasty things in secret, so no one else knew about them.
The average German just realized that playing along promised much more than sticking to a lost cause (with one exception: getting the territory lost to (mainly) Poland back one day).
The ‘clean Wehrmacht’ myth was an important part of the ‘just a few bad people’ consent. The military resistance against Hitler was almost the only one recognized in Western Germany, both to exclude any leftist movement and to support the second myth that only the military had the power to do anything (while the average German was helpless and thus innocent).
German rearmament also needed a ‘tradition’ to adhere to. Neither Prussia nor the Imperial Army were suitable, so it had to be the Wehrmacht (honestly defeated by overwhelming force). The new German war movies that appeared during the discussion about rearmament and creating a conscription army were nearly indistinguishable from those produced during the war (removing a few scenes with the token evil Nazi character and the difference disappears completely).
Naming barracks, ships* etc. after popular Wehrmacht guys was part of that propaganda.
Rommel was just the most prominent example.
It has been said that Rommel was just lucky to never be where atrocities were SOP, so he could afford to stay clean, and became a martyr just in time.
The plans the military resistance had for Germany were not liberal in any form and had more in common with the 2nd Reich and the transition was to be a benign military dictatorship under another name (potentially with Rommel as the new Hindenburg).
That the myth was not dead became visible in the context of the ‘crimes of the Wehrmacht’ exhibition in 1995.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmachtsausstellung
I could proceed but I have some duties to attend to right now, so, if called for, I may do so later.
*the first three guided missile destroyers were named after Rommel, Lütjens (admiral on the battleship Bismarck) and Mölders (a Luftwaffe ace) to represent all three parts of the Wehrmacht.
What Hartmut said.
But also, the US wasn’t very picky when it came to employing and supporting Nazis after the war, as long as they could be useful to undermine the new enemy, the USSR, cf e.g.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehlen_Organization
Or the CIA involvement in the ratlines (I love “The Marathon Man”, lol).
What Hartmut said.
But also, the US wasn’t very picky when it came to employing and supporting Nazis after the war, as long as they could be useful to undermine the new enemy, the USSR, cf e.g.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehlen_Organization
Or the CIA involvement in the ratlines (I love “The Marathon Man”, lol).
Thanks, Hartmut.
Thanks, Hartmut.
Eugene Robinson:
Eugene Robinson:
Covering a couple of things.
re: ratlines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_(World_War_II_aftermath)
I never really understood why the Israeli government didn’t raise more of a fuss concerning the US involvement in this. If someone has some insight, I’d be all ears
I’m appreciateive of Hartmut’s contribution and I’ll try and get a post up about historical memory in Japan. Statuary is a particularly western form, and something that is only fitfully adopted in Japan, but that doesn’t mean that there are not other problems.
I don’t want to pick, but Marty, when you wrote this
Lincoln freed the slaves because they needed to be allowed to fight in the war and they were, by law in the North banned from being armed.
Do you have any reference for this? I’m not widely read in Civil War history, but I’ve never heard anything like this. In fact, Lincoln had the Emancipation Proclamation ready to go and he was waiting for a Union victory before he issued it precisely because he didn’t want England to think that he wasn’t issuing it from a position of strength. Now, wikipedia notes that
helped the Union militarily by making Union soldiers out of freed slaves, and took an implicit statement toward black citizenship by accepting blacks as soldiers and trusting them with arms. (Up until this point, there had been no blacks in combat positions in the Army.)
But Lincoln was careful, under Seward’s advice, not to suggest that he needed more men at arms. That’s why it was written before but only issued after the Battle of Antietam. Also, Shelby Foote, in Ken Burns documentary, points out that ‘the Union was fighting with one hand behind its back’ which suggests that arming blacks as Union soldiers was not an issue. If you have any reference for this, I would be interested to hear it.
Covering a couple of things.
re: ratlines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_(World_War_II_aftermath)
I never really understood why the Israeli government didn’t raise more of a fuss concerning the US involvement in this. If someone has some insight, I’d be all ears
I’m appreciateive of Hartmut’s contribution and I’ll try and get a post up about historical memory in Japan. Statuary is a particularly western form, and something that is only fitfully adopted in Japan, but that doesn’t mean that there are not other problems.
I don’t want to pick, but Marty, when you wrote this
Lincoln freed the slaves because they needed to be allowed to fight in the war and they were, by law in the North banned from being armed.
Do you have any reference for this? I’m not widely read in Civil War history, but I’ve never heard anything like this. In fact, Lincoln had the Emancipation Proclamation ready to go and he was waiting for a Union victory before he issued it precisely because he didn’t want England to think that he wasn’t issuing it from a position of strength. Now, wikipedia notes that
helped the Union militarily by making Union soldiers out of freed slaves, and took an implicit statement toward black citizenship by accepting blacks as soldiers and trusting them with arms. (Up until this point, there had been no blacks in combat positions in the Army.)
But Lincoln was careful, under Seward’s advice, not to suggest that he needed more men at arms. That’s why it was written before but only issued after the Battle of Antietam. Also, Shelby Foote, in Ken Burns documentary, points out that ‘the Union was fighting with one hand behind its back’ which suggests that arming blacks as Union soldiers was not an issue. If you have any reference for this, I would be interested to hear it.
“Oh, but if you start toppling statues, where does it all end?” defenders wail, rending their garments. This is not a hard problem to solve: It ends where we, as a nation, decide to draw the line between those historical figures who deserve to be so honored and those who do not.
These two statements cannot rest consistently side-by-side:
1.if you start toppling statues, where does it all end?
2. It ends where we, as a nation, decide to draw the line between those historical figures who deserve to be so honored and those who do not.
If an unrestrained mob–that is what it is, not matter how much we try to gussy it up–is tearing down monuments or statues or what have you based on that mob’s assessment of what it likes and does not like, then you have the Polar Opposite of “we, as a nation” deciding the issue.
Logically and every other way, once the statue is torn down, the decision has been made. There is no debate, no discussion, no consensus. It’s straight up mob action.
Not all of the protests have been peaceful. BLM and other similarly aligned spokes people have either outright called for statue-toppling or have tried to justify/excuse it after the fact. Not too many on the left have spoken out against statue-toppling or other acts of destruction.
Mr. Robinson does not appreciate the internal inconsistency of his argument. There is a huge inconsistency. That inconsistency extends far beyond the present crisis. If the day comes when some right-of-center, social conflagration unfolds, there will be no principled basis for opposing right-wing violence or destruction other than to say it’s ok when we do it but not when you do it. Our cause is righteous, yours is not.
If someone vandalizes an IRS office or a post office or hacks the computers at the Intersectional Studies Department at Oberlin after some controversial event, what is the argument that those who agree with Mr. Robinson would advance to say that only the left may employ civil disobedience?
Being right about somethings doesn’t make you right about everything and injustice in one location doesn’t necessarily justify criminal activity in others.
There is a fairly broad consensus that many of these statues need to come down. Using that consensus to justify vandalism will not only undercut the consensus, it will make future efforts at reconciliation more difficult.
“Oh, but if you start toppling statues, where does it all end?” defenders wail, rending their garments. This is not a hard problem to solve: It ends where we, as a nation, decide to draw the line between those historical figures who deserve to be so honored and those who do not.
These two statements cannot rest consistently side-by-side:
1.if you start toppling statues, where does it all end?
2. It ends where we, as a nation, decide to draw the line between those historical figures who deserve to be so honored and those who do not.
If an unrestrained mob–that is what it is, not matter how much we try to gussy it up–is tearing down monuments or statues or what have you based on that mob’s assessment of what it likes and does not like, then you have the Polar Opposite of “we, as a nation” deciding the issue.
Logically and every other way, once the statue is torn down, the decision has been made. There is no debate, no discussion, no consensus. It’s straight up mob action.
Not all of the protests have been peaceful. BLM and other similarly aligned spokes people have either outright called for statue-toppling or have tried to justify/excuse it after the fact. Not too many on the left have spoken out against statue-toppling or other acts of destruction.
Mr. Robinson does not appreciate the internal inconsistency of his argument. There is a huge inconsistency. That inconsistency extends far beyond the present crisis. If the day comes when some right-of-center, social conflagration unfolds, there will be no principled basis for opposing right-wing violence or destruction other than to say it’s ok when we do it but not when you do it. Our cause is righteous, yours is not.
If someone vandalizes an IRS office or a post office or hacks the computers at the Intersectional Studies Department at Oberlin after some controversial event, what is the argument that those who agree with Mr. Robinson would advance to say that only the left may employ civil disobedience?
Being right about somethings doesn’t make you right about everything and injustice in one location doesn’t necessarily justify criminal activity in others.
There is a fairly broad consensus that many of these statues need to come down. Using that consensus to justify vandalism will not only undercut the consensus, it will make future efforts at reconciliation more difficult.
also, the US wasn’t very picky when it came to employing and supporting Nazis after the war, as long as they could be useful to undermine the new enemy, the USSR
And as long as they didn’t insist on making public proclamations about the glory and nobility of the Nazi cause.
also, the US wasn’t very picky when it came to employing and supporting Nazis after the war, as long as they could be useful to undermine the new enemy, the USSR
And as long as they didn’t insist on making public proclamations about the glory and nobility of the Nazi cause.
Logically and every other way, once the statue is torn down, the decision has been made. There is no debate, no discussion, no consensus. It’s straight up mob action.
thing about mobs: they don’t really care about logic and semantics.
best way to avoid mobs is to figure out what’s causing them in the first place and address that.
many of today’s mobs are fed up with systemic racism, of which the tolerance and defense of confederate propaganda is one symptom.
Logically and every other way, once the statue is torn down, the decision has been made. There is no debate, no discussion, no consensus. It’s straight up mob action.
thing about mobs: they don’t really care about logic and semantics.
best way to avoid mobs is to figure out what’s causing them in the first place and address that.
many of today’s mobs are fed up with systemic racism, of which the tolerance and defense of confederate propaganda is one symptom.
So when right wing hate groups form a mob in Charlottesville we should focus on what’s causing them and fix that?
Bullshit, a mobs a mob and they are dangerous, illegal and should face the same consequences as any other mob.
So when right wing hate groups form a mob in Charlottesville we should focus on what’s causing them and fix that?
Bullshit, a mobs a mob and they are dangerous, illegal and should face the same consequences as any other mob.
have it your way.
have it your way.
So, for one, Rommel was never in rebellion against his government.
Well, he was given a choice between suicide and execution for his (uncertain) involvement in a plot to kill Hitler. Which may have contributed to the Allied decision to commemorate him after the war.
But it’s not rebellion which I object to. It’s the celebration of people who fought for slavery and Nazi genocide.
So, for one, Rommel was never in rebellion against his government.
Well, he was given a choice between suicide and execution for his (uncertain) involvement in a plot to kill Hitler. Which may have contributed to the Allied decision to commemorate him after the war.
But it’s not rebellion which I object to. It’s the celebration of people who fought for slavery and Nazi genocide.
Personally, while my default position is “don’t wreck stuff”, I distinguish between mobs that pull down a statue, and mobs who show up bearing arms and who express their point of view by beating the shit out of people and running them over with cars.
To give another example, while I’m not a supporter or fan of antifa, I distinguish between Nazis and people who punch Nazis.
Pulling down a statue on one hand, putting people in the hospital and driving cars into crowds on the other. Seem pretty different.
Don’t you think?
Y’all can draw your crisp “a mob’s a mob” moral lines wherever you like, I’ll draw mine where it makes sense to me.
Personally, while my default position is “don’t wreck stuff”, I distinguish between mobs that pull down a statue, and mobs who show up bearing arms and who express their point of view by beating the shit out of people and running them over with cars.
To give another example, while I’m not a supporter or fan of antifa, I distinguish between Nazis and people who punch Nazis.
Pulling down a statue on one hand, putting people in the hospital and driving cars into crowds on the other. Seem pretty different.
Don’t you think?
Y’all can draw your crisp “a mob’s a mob” moral lines wherever you like, I’ll draw mine where it makes sense to me.
Also, too:
Dude, where ya been?
Also, too:
Dude, where ya been?
I took Robinson to be discussing the removal of statues as a matter of some kind of sanctioned, official policy, not random people knocking down statues in civil disobedience. I get that people are doing the latter, but it doesn’t make sense, as McKinney points out, to make such an argument on that basis. It does make sense if Robinson is taking on people who don’t want statues removed even if authorized because we’d be “erasing history.”
I took Robinson to be discussing the removal of statues as a matter of some kind of sanctioned, official policy, not random people knocking down statues in civil disobedience. I get that people are doing the latter, but it doesn’t make sense, as McKinney points out, to make such an argument on that basis. It does make sense if Robinson is taking on people who don’t want statues removed even if authorized because we’d be “erasing history.”
Where have you been russell? Wheres the burned and looted store from a right wing riot, people running down the street throwing things at cops?
Guns intimidate, sure they should leave them at home. But ain’t none of them burned a store. Or bricked a cop. Or destroyed a statue. Or defaced public property. Or thrown a molotov cocktail.
One person ran over someone with their car, got arrested, in jail. Good for the cops that arrested him, hell let’s defund them.
It’s just simple, your side is a revolution, their side is treason. Your side should be understood, their side should be arrested.
My side just watched and shakes our head. WTF.
Where have you been russell? Wheres the burned and looted store from a right wing riot, people running down the street throwing things at cops?
Guns intimidate, sure they should leave them at home. But ain’t none of them burned a store. Or bricked a cop. Or destroyed a statue. Or defaced public property. Or thrown a molotov cocktail.
One person ran over someone with their car, got arrested, in jail. Good for the cops that arrested him, hell let’s defund them.
It’s just simple, your side is a revolution, their side is treason. Your side should be understood, their side should be arrested.
My side just watched and shakes our head. WTF.
your side keeps denying there’s a problem. people keep telling you there is. then you act all suhprizzed when things boil over.
how about you listen?
your side keeps denying there’s a problem. people keep telling you there is. then you act all suhprizzed when things boil over.
how about you listen?
Boogaloo Boys killing cops doesn’t count?
Boogaloo Boys killing cops doesn’t count?
I took Robinson to be discussing the removal of statues as a matter of some kind of sanctioned, official policy, not random people knocking down statues in civil disobedience.
Yep, there’s no expression of support for mob statue action in his column. Seems like a willful misreading.
I took Robinson to be discussing the removal of statues as a matter of some kind of sanctioned, official policy, not random people knocking down statues in civil disobedience.
Yep, there’s no expression of support for mob statue action in his column. Seems like a willful misreading.
Proud Boys convicted of gang assault and rioting, too.
Proud Boys convicted of gang assault and rioting, too.
The Bundy standoff?
The Bundy standoff?
One person ran over someone with their car
And, you know, killed that person.
That was certainly not the only act of violence by the Charlottesville mob:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/the-parking-garage-beating-lasted-10-seconds-deandre-harris-still-lives-with-the-damage/2019/09/16/ca6daa48-cfbf-11e9-87fa-8501a456c003_story.html
One person ran over someone with their car
And, you know, killed that person.
That was certainly not the only act of violence by the Charlottesville mob:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/the-parking-garage-beating-lasted-10-seconds-deandre-harris-still-lives-with-the-damage/2019/09/16/ca6daa48-cfbf-11e9-87fa-8501a456c003_story.html
I don’t really have time to enumerate the various acts of right-wing violence that have plagued the nation for the last fucking generation at least.
Against Jews, Muslims, gays, blacks, cops, federal agents and officials, members of the military, politicians, broadcast and print journalists.
Not burning down a store. Blowing up buildings and mailing pipe bombs to people.
Not throwing bricks at cops. Shooting cops.
This shit has been going on for 20 or 30 years now. Go look it up. Or don’t, either way fine with me.
But don’t give me this “your side, my side” crap. Right-wingers kill people on a fairly regular basis. It’s in the public record, which means you can go find it if you actually give a crap.
If pulling down a statue gets you all worked up, that oughta set your freaking hair on fire.
Does it?
I don’t really have time to enumerate the various acts of right-wing violence that have plagued the nation for the last fucking generation at least.
Against Jews, Muslims, gays, blacks, cops, federal agents and officials, members of the military, politicians, broadcast and print journalists.
Not burning down a store. Blowing up buildings and mailing pipe bombs to people.
Not throwing bricks at cops. Shooting cops.
This shit has been going on for 20 or 30 years now. Go look it up. Or don’t, either way fine with me.
But don’t give me this “your side, my side” crap. Right-wingers kill people on a fairly regular basis. It’s in the public record, which means you can go find it if you actually give a crap.
If pulling down a statue gets you all worked up, that oughta set your freaking hair on fire.
Does it?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/racially-motivated-violent-extremism-isis-national-threat-priority-fbi-director-christopher-wray/
Sorry, white nationalists are right-wingers. Tell the FBI that they’re nothing to worry about.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/racially-motivated-violent-extremism-isis-national-threat-priority-fbi-director-christopher-wray/
Sorry, white nationalists are right-wingers. Tell the FBI that they’re nothing to worry about.
The Bundy standoff?
Parts 1 and 2.
This is not even a question worth arguing over. There is no comparison whatsoever between the violence inspired by the American right wing, and basically any other organization or demographic in this country with the possible exception of explicitly criminal gangs.
Right wing nutjobs plan to kill people, attempt to kill people, threaten to kill people, and actually kill people, on a regular basis.
Ask the FBI, ask DHS, ask state and local cops.
Not my circus, not my monkeys. Most likely not yours, either, but for some reason you seem to feel compelled to “stick up for your side”.
Why bother? They’re violent maniacs.
Statues, people. Not the same thing.
The Bundy standoff?
Parts 1 and 2.
This is not even a question worth arguing over. There is no comparison whatsoever between the violence inspired by the American right wing, and basically any other organization or demographic in this country with the possible exception of explicitly criminal gangs.
Right wing nutjobs plan to kill people, attempt to kill people, threaten to kill people, and actually kill people, on a regular basis.
Ask the FBI, ask DHS, ask state and local cops.
Not my circus, not my monkeys. Most likely not yours, either, but for some reason you seem to feel compelled to “stick up for your side”.
Why bother? They’re violent maniacs.
Statues, people. Not the same thing.
Guns intimidate, sure they should leave them at home. But ain’t none of them burned a store. Or bricked a cop. Or destroyed a statue. Or defaced public property. Or thrown a molotov cocktail.
the list of people who have killed people at women’s health clinics with guns is pretty long, so is the list of people who have set those clinics on fire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#Murders
or, we could talk about McVeigh.
Guns intimidate, sure they should leave them at home. But ain’t none of them burned a store. Or bricked a cop. Or destroyed a statue. Or defaced public property. Or thrown a molotov cocktail.
the list of people who have killed people at women’s health clinics with guns is pretty long, so is the list of people who have set those clinics on fire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#Murders
or, we could talk about McVeigh.
But ain’t none of them … destroyed a statue.
there was this black kid, in Miss, 1955, killed. Emmett Till, was his name. there’s a sign at the place they found his body.
for some reason, people keep wrecking it.
the latest one weighs 500 pounds and is bulletproof.
must be those violent lefties.
But ain’t none of them … destroyed a statue.
there was this black kid, in Miss, 1955, killed. Emmett Till, was his name. there’s a sign at the place they found his body.
for some reason, people keep wrecking it.
the latest one weighs 500 pounds and is bulletproof.
must be those violent lefties.
I am old enough to remember when “unrestrained mobs” of Iraquis were tearing down statues of Saddam Hussein. There were surely some Iraquis at the time who found that appalling. Had the statues not been torn down back then, Iraquis proposing to tear them down now would surely be accused by other Iraquis of wanting to “erase our history”.
“We, as a nation” are no more unanimous, about ANYTHING, than the Iraquis. Even if 90% of Americans approved of the “unrestrained mobs” and cheered them on, the other 10% would be swinging the same song we hear from Marty and McKinney.
So, “where does it end”? I don’t know. It depends on whether “we, as a nation” wait to tear down the racist slaver monuments until even the Ku Klux Klan agrees, or whether “we, as a nation” decide that it’s OUR job, not BLM’s, to tell the Klan to fuck off.
–TP
I am old enough to remember when “unrestrained mobs” of Iraquis were tearing down statues of Saddam Hussein. There were surely some Iraquis at the time who found that appalling. Had the statues not been torn down back then, Iraquis proposing to tear them down now would surely be accused by other Iraquis of wanting to “erase our history”.
“We, as a nation” are no more unanimous, about ANYTHING, than the Iraquis. Even if 90% of Americans approved of the “unrestrained mobs” and cheered them on, the other 10% would be swinging the same song we hear from Marty and McKinney.
So, “where does it end”? I don’t know. It depends on whether “we, as a nation” wait to tear down the racist slaver monuments until even the Ku Klux Klan agrees, or whether “we, as a nation” decide that it’s OUR job, not BLM’s, to tell the Klan to fuck off.
–TP
White lives matter, Arthur Ashe!
White lives matter, Arthur Ashe!
Or destroyed a statue. Or defaced public property.
Or knocked over headstones in a Jewish cemetery. Or spray-painted swastikas on synagogues.
Or set fire to a mosque.
How long do you want us to keep this up? We could be here for weeks laying this stuff out.
Or destroyed a statue. Or defaced public property.
Or knocked over headstones in a Jewish cemetery. Or spray-painted swastikas on synagogues.
Or set fire to a mosque.
How long do you want us to keep this up? We could be here for weeks laying this stuff out.
we could talk about McVeigh.
No need to go that far back.
Let’s talk Dylann Roof, Robert Bowers, Cesar Sayoc, people driving cars into the BLM protestors (not one guy), etc.
And by the way, how much of the looting and vandalism is by actual protestors, and how much by opportunists of whatever political stripe?
we could talk about McVeigh.
No need to go that far back.
Let’s talk Dylann Roof, Robert Bowers, Cesar Sayoc, people driving cars into the BLM protestors (not one guy), etc.
And by the way, how much of the looting and vandalism is by actual protestors, and how much by opportunists of whatever political stripe?
Their side, your side …. my side? You mean “my” side that is “your” side when it is convenient issue-wise?
What’s the other side of three sides? The sound of one side clapping?
If we leave Andrew Jackson’s statues standing, I propose welding a noose around his neck and arranging numerous arrows sticking out of him.
That’s MY side, and I have others that are worse.
The Bundy’s are still in operation and I don’t believe they’ve paid their grazing fees after hitting a plurality of the bullet points and getting off:
“Guns intimidate, sure they should leave them at home. But ain’t none of them burned a store. Or bricked a cop. Or destroyed a statue. Or defaced public property. Or thrown a molotov cocktail.”
Here’s a worse side of me: If Antifa would like to useful, head up to Oregon and burn the Bundys out, since Obama wimped out, but like the Bundys, Antifa bullies and punishes the innocent.
Here’s Brian Kilmeade criticizing the removal of the Jackson statue:
“I’m just wondering where Democrats are. He’s a Democrat. Where are the Democrats, who should be equally outraged? We should be able to come together on this.”
Sides switch, like magnetic fields, in the historical dos si dos.
How effing stupid can stupid get?
John Calhoun and the killers of Medger Evers were Democrats.
John Wilkes Booth was a Democrat.
Had they lived to these parlous times, they’d have followed Strom Thurmond, dragging their weaponry, into the modern Republican Party that hates modernity and continued pissing on Abraham Lincoln from their new political perch in that monstrosity.
Jackson is still in arrears to the American taxpayer for allowing his shitheel faithful to trash the White House and its furnishings during the stiff-necked lout’s inauguration party 180 years ago.
Who did he think he was, Keith Moon?
Given how interest compounds, we could probably pay off the effing deficit with the proceeds, but stinking Democrats turned Republican never … NEVER.. pay reparations for their damages.
Their side, your side …. my side? You mean “my” side that is “your” side when it is convenient issue-wise?
What’s the other side of three sides? The sound of one side clapping?
If we leave Andrew Jackson’s statues standing, I propose welding a noose around his neck and arranging numerous arrows sticking out of him.
That’s MY side, and I have others that are worse.
The Bundy’s are still in operation and I don’t believe they’ve paid their grazing fees after hitting a plurality of the bullet points and getting off:
“Guns intimidate, sure they should leave them at home. But ain’t none of them burned a store. Or bricked a cop. Or destroyed a statue. Or defaced public property. Or thrown a molotov cocktail.”
Here’s a worse side of me: If Antifa would like to useful, head up to Oregon and burn the Bundys out, since Obama wimped out, but like the Bundys, Antifa bullies and punishes the innocent.
Here’s Brian Kilmeade criticizing the removal of the Jackson statue:
“I’m just wondering where Democrats are. He’s a Democrat. Where are the Democrats, who should be equally outraged? We should be able to come together on this.”
Sides switch, like magnetic fields, in the historical dos si dos.
How effing stupid can stupid get?
John Calhoun and the killers of Medger Evers were Democrats.
John Wilkes Booth was a Democrat.
Had they lived to these parlous times, they’d have followed Strom Thurmond, dragging their weaponry, into the modern Republican Party that hates modernity and continued pissing on Abraham Lincoln from their new political perch in that monstrosity.
Jackson is still in arrears to the American taxpayer for allowing his shitheel faithful to trash the White House and its furnishings during the stiff-necked lout’s inauguration party 180 years ago.
Who did he think he was, Keith Moon?
Given how interest compounds, we could probably pay off the effing deficit with the proceeds, but stinking Democrats turned Republican never … NEVER.. pay reparations for their damages.
Great, because of the death cult that is the Trump Republican Party, deliberately spreading Covid-19 among us and murdering Americans, we’re right down in the fascist gutter with Brazil and Russia, our allies in genocide.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/eu-may-bar-americans-from-visiting-because-covid-19-pandemic-is-not-contained-in-the-us-new-york-times-2020-06-23?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
So much for the travel plans. So much for this fucking life destroyed by reactionary murderous home-grown confederate conservatism.
Great, because of the death cult that is the Trump Republican Party, deliberately spreading Covid-19 among us and murdering Americans, we’re right down in the fascist gutter with Brazil and Russia, our allies in genocide.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/eu-may-bar-americans-from-visiting-because-covid-19-pandemic-is-not-contained-in-the-us-new-york-times-2020-06-23?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
So much for the travel plans. So much for this fucking life destroyed by reactionary murderous home-grown confederate conservatism.
are we great yet?
are we great yet?
the Trump Republican Party, deliberately spreading Covid-19 among us and murdering Americans
it’s becoming very very difficult hard not to see it that way.
the Trump Republican Party, deliberately spreading Covid-19 among us and murdering Americans
it’s becoming very very difficult hard not to see it that way.
hard/difficult. pick one. leave the other for someone else.
hard/difficult. pick one. leave the other for someone else.
the Trump Republican Party, deliberately spreading Covid-19 among us and murdering Americans
Consider that a) the demographic most likely to be seriously hit by the virus is also the one most likely to vote for them, and b) they are gathering without masks with each other.
I am put in mind of the old military axiom about “Don’t interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.”
the Trump Republican Party, deliberately spreading Covid-19 among us and murdering Americans
Consider that a) the demographic most likely to be seriously hit by the virus is also the one most likely to vote for them, and b) they are gathering without masks with each other.
I am put in mind of the old military axiom about “Don’t interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.”
I agree that HSH correctly understands Mr. Robinson and I missed that. The formulation is this: to prevent this kind of vandalism, the American people must do what the vandals want.
They may be the best-intentioned vandals ever, but it is still vandalism.
Someone wrote “All lives matter” on an MLK statue, and that is bad.
It isn’t just confederate statues getting the treatment. There is all kinds of property defacing going on.
Can someone parse out for me the acceptable vs unacceptable vandalism?
Thanks.
I agree that HSH correctly understands Mr. Robinson and I missed that. The formulation is this: to prevent this kind of vandalism, the American people must do what the vandals want.
They may be the best-intentioned vandals ever, but it is still vandalism.
Someone wrote “All lives matter” on an MLK statue, and that is bad.
It isn’t just confederate statues getting the treatment. There is all kinds of property defacing going on.
Can someone parse out for me the acceptable vs unacceptable vandalism?
Thanks.
Not hard at all:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/exclusive-feds-about-to-bail-on-supporting-covid-testing-sites-in-texas-and-other-states
Prosecute the entire Republican Party for bioterrorism on American soil.
Not hard at all:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/exclusive-feds-about-to-bail-on-supporting-covid-testing-sites-in-texas-and-other-states
Prosecute the entire Republican Party for bioterrorism on American soil.
Can someone parse out for me the acceptable vs unacceptable vandalism?
here’s my one step flow chart:
Can someone parse out for me the acceptable vs unacceptable vandalism?
here’s my one step flow chart:
Should there be a statute of limitations on the elimination of statues?…
Should there be a statute of limitations on the elimination of statues?…
Social Control Theory: https://johnjayrec.nyc/pyj_controltheory/
Law and Order types side with punishing deviance as a means of preventing crime.
Social Control types point to the need for connection in order to minimize crime and delinquency:
When an individual’s bonds to society are strong, they prevent or limit crime and other deviant behavior. When bonds are weak, they increase the probability of deviance. Weak or broken bonds do not “cause” delinquency, but rather allow it to happen (Whitehead and Lab 2009: 89).
Since the 90s the budgets for law enforcement have been going up and the budgets for social programs have been going down. Guess we have hit the point where all that spending on law enforcement just adds more cost without reducing unrest.
It’s like the Laffer curve, but no one is laffing.
Social Control Theory: https://johnjayrec.nyc/pyj_controltheory/
Law and Order types side with punishing deviance as a means of preventing crime.
Social Control types point to the need for connection in order to minimize crime and delinquency:
When an individual’s bonds to society are strong, they prevent or limit crime and other deviant behavior. When bonds are weak, they increase the probability of deviance. Weak or broken bonds do not “cause” delinquency, but rather allow it to happen (Whitehead and Lab 2009: 89).
Since the 90s the budgets for law enforcement have been going up and the budgets for social programs have been going down. Guess we have hit the point where all that spending on law enforcement just adds more cost without reducing unrest.
It’s like the Laffer curve, but no one is laffing.
The formulation is this: to prevent this kind of vandalism, the American people must do what the vandals want.
Nope. Try again.
The formulation is this: to prevent this kind of vandalism, the American people must do what the vandals want.
Nope. Try again.
Nope. Try again.
Enlighten me.
Nope. Try again.
Enlighten me.
Can someone parse out for me the acceptable vs unacceptable vandalism?
Sorry, above my pay grade.
People do things for all kinds of reasons. I imagine that some folks involved in pulling down statues that are, plainly and simply, fed up with taking crap from white people. And some other of them probably just enjoy the frisson of being in a big crowd doing something forbidden.
If you’re asking me, personally, my default position is “don’t wreck stuff”. And then I try to consider each case on its own merits.
I do think there are cases where property damage is justifiable, ethically and morally if not legally. And, if you go that way, you need to be willing to take the heat for that. IMVHO.
Whether each instance of somebody pulling down a statue fits that or not, I don’t really have an answer for.
Not a very helpful answer, but unfortunately it’s the only one I got.
I do, however, recognize a difference between pulling down a statue because it represents a history that has done nothing but abused you, and trashing stuff as an expression of hate toward other people just because they are who they are.
And I don’t think *that* difference is hard to parse.
Not saying it’s justified, just saying it’s different.
Can someone parse out for me the acceptable vs unacceptable vandalism?
Sorry, above my pay grade.
People do things for all kinds of reasons. I imagine that some folks involved in pulling down statues that are, plainly and simply, fed up with taking crap from white people. And some other of them probably just enjoy the frisson of being in a big crowd doing something forbidden.
If you’re asking me, personally, my default position is “don’t wreck stuff”. And then I try to consider each case on its own merits.
I do think there are cases where property damage is justifiable, ethically and morally if not legally. And, if you go that way, you need to be willing to take the heat for that. IMVHO.
Whether each instance of somebody pulling down a statue fits that or not, I don’t really have an answer for.
Not a very helpful answer, but unfortunately it’s the only one I got.
I do, however, recognize a difference between pulling down a statue because it represents a history that has done nothing but abused you, and trashing stuff as an expression of hate toward other people just because they are who they are.
And I don’t think *that* difference is hard to parse.
Not saying it’s justified, just saying it’s different.
Should there be a statute of limitations on the elimination of statues?…
LOL
Should there be a statute of limitations on the elimination of statues?…
LOL
The formulation is this: to prevent this kind of vandalism, the American people must do what the vandals want.
The American people include the vandals. Some of the non-vandals among the American people support the cause, even if not the vandalism. Some of the American people don’t support the cause or the vandalism. How many belong to each of those groups and how strongly they feel on average isn’t always easy to know.
What I’d say is that, in this case, the majority of the vandalism is a sign that what the American people need to do is overdue. So, in some sense, the American people could have prevented the vandalism by doing what enough of the American people wanted the American people to do sooner, but that wouldn’t have been the reason for doing it. The vandalism is just an indicator that the American people have failed the American people by not acting sooner, so the American people have to catch up.
The formulation is this: to prevent this kind of vandalism, the American people must do what the vandals want.
The American people include the vandals. Some of the non-vandals among the American people support the cause, even if not the vandalism. Some of the American people don’t support the cause or the vandalism. How many belong to each of those groups and how strongly they feel on average isn’t always easy to know.
What I’d say is that, in this case, the majority of the vandalism is a sign that what the American people need to do is overdue. So, in some sense, the American people could have prevented the vandalism by doing what enough of the American people wanted the American people to do sooner, but that wouldn’t have been the reason for doing it. The vandalism is just an indicator that the American people have failed the American people by not acting sooner, so the American people have to catch up.
Enlighten me.
Just read the article without ascribing to him things he doesn’t say.
Enlighten me.
Just read the article without ascribing to him things he doesn’t say.
“Enlighten me.”
The Boston Tea Party.
“Enlighten me.”
The Boston Tea Party.
He could have written the same article in the absence of vandalism, so what Ufficio said.
(Though I still think McKinney’s formulation needed addressing, even if it’s not on point as regard the article.)
He could have written the same article in the absence of vandalism, so what Ufficio said.
(Though I still think McKinney’s formulation needed addressing, even if it’s not on point as regard the article.)
I don’t support vandalism. But if you think the big problem is people tearing down statues whose very existence is a disgrace, we can’t begin to have a conversation.
I don’t support vandalism. But if you think the big problem is people tearing down statues whose very existence is a disgrace, we can’t begin to have a conversation.
Hey McKinney,
Is slashing tires vandalism? Is it “acceptable” vandalism? If it’s not “acceptable” to YOU, what can I expect YOU to do about it?
–TP
Hey McKinney,
Is slashing tires vandalism? Is it “acceptable” vandalism? If it’s not “acceptable” to YOU, what can I expect YOU to do about it?
–TP
AOC has praised TikTok teens for punking the Trump rally.
Yeah, well, it’s social media.
It will eat everyone, including AOC:
https://digbysblog.net/2020/06/tiktok-isnt-the-answer-folks/
AOC has praised TikTok teens for punking the Trump rally.
Yeah, well, it’s social media.
It will eat everyone, including AOC:
https://digbysblog.net/2020/06/tiktok-isnt-the-answer-folks/
You want to talk about real vandalism? Take a look at this.
You want to talk about real vandalism? Take a look at this.
i support adding a 500ft Gen Sherman stomping on these three asshats.
i support adding a 500ft Gen Sherman stomping on these three asshats.
Yep, bobbyp. This is why I mentioned Social Control Theory. That growing gap in wealth coupled with the ongoing incarceration travesty in the US is going to undo everything.
Yep, bobbyp. This is why I mentioned Social Control Theory. That growing gap in wealth coupled with the ongoing incarceration travesty in the US is going to undo everything.
I still think McKinney’s formulation needed addressing, even if it’s not on point as regard the article
In Japanese martial arts, there is a principle that is called kuzushi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzushi
and is generally given as “if your opponent pushes, pull, and if your opponent pulls, push”
Of course, this views the ‘vandals’ as being the enemy. However, nothing that McT or Marty have said makes me think that they view them as part of the American polity. So I wonder if they have seen these protests with their own eyes as opposed to viewing them thru the lens of the media (There have been some protests supporting BLM here in Japan and the k-pop community has also mobilized itself
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52996705
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/04/us/kpop-bts-blackpink-fans-black-lives-matter-trnd/index.html
But returnig to the the principal of kuzushi is not simply applicable to an attacker, it is also a technique for de-escalation. Ellis Amdur is one practioner who has written about it and here is an interview with him
https://guillaumeerard.com/aikido/interviews/interview-with-ellis-amdur-part-2-the-de-escalation-of-violence-and-the-relevance-of-budo/
and in my US aikido dojo, there was always a smattering of police or social workers who were looking to apply aikido, not simply the techniques but also the mindset, to their work.
In Japan, anyone who wants to become a police officer has to have a 1st degree black belt in either Judo, kendo or Aikido (karate may also apply) This requirement is interesting because when I did judo, about 6 months or so before job application time, we’d get a handful of men who were looking to check that box for their job applications. However, it is well known that if you would like to keep up your martial arts, going into the police is a good option because you will be encouraged to do so. And if theories of de-escalation are broadly based within the force, you reduce the chance that police are going to view themselves as warriors.
I still think McKinney’s formulation needed addressing, even if it’s not on point as regard the article
In Japanese martial arts, there is a principle that is called kuzushi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzushi
and is generally given as “if your opponent pushes, pull, and if your opponent pulls, push”
Of course, this views the ‘vandals’ as being the enemy. However, nothing that McT or Marty have said makes me think that they view them as part of the American polity. So I wonder if they have seen these protests with their own eyes as opposed to viewing them thru the lens of the media (There have been some protests supporting BLM here in Japan and the k-pop community has also mobilized itself
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52996705
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/04/us/kpop-bts-blackpink-fans-black-lives-matter-trnd/index.html
But returnig to the the principal of kuzushi is not simply applicable to an attacker, it is also a technique for de-escalation. Ellis Amdur is one practioner who has written about it and here is an interview with him
https://guillaumeerard.com/aikido/interviews/interview-with-ellis-amdur-part-2-the-de-escalation-of-violence-and-the-relevance-of-budo/
and in my US aikido dojo, there was always a smattering of police or social workers who were looking to apply aikido, not simply the techniques but also the mindset, to their work.
In Japan, anyone who wants to become a police officer has to have a 1st degree black belt in either Judo, kendo or Aikido (karate may also apply) This requirement is interesting because when I did judo, about 6 months or so before job application time, we’d get a handful of men who were looking to check that box for their job applications. However, it is well known that if you would like to keep up your martial arts, going into the police is a good option because you will be encouraged to do so. And if theories of de-escalation are broadly based within the force, you reduce the chance that police are going to view themselves as warriors.
There have been some protests supporting BLM here in Japan and the k-pop community has also mobilized itself
The US not only exports its culture but also its social movements…
There have been some protests supporting BLM here in Japan and the k-pop community has also mobilized itself
The US not only exports its culture but also its social movements…
If an unrestrained mob–that is what it is, not matter how much we try to gussy it up–is tearing down monuments or statues or what have you based on that mob’s assessment of what it likes and does not like, then you have .
Well, OK. I agree.
But if a legislature gerrymandered to give power to those who, unlike the majority of the people in the state, or country, admire the Confederacy, refuses to remove Confederate statues that too is “the Polar Opposite of “we, as a nation” deciding the issue.”
A lot of the folks now acting as if the method of removing the statues is their only complaint were not long ago, it seems to me, very much in favor of leaving them in place, and even supported efforts to deny the will of “we, as a nation,” or “we as a state” in this and other matters.
If an unrestrained mob–that is what it is, not matter how much we try to gussy it up–is tearing down monuments or statues or what have you based on that mob’s assessment of what it likes and does not like, then you have .
Well, OK. I agree.
But if a legislature gerrymandered to give power to those who, unlike the majority of the people in the state, or country, admire the Confederacy, refuses to remove Confederate statues that too is “the Polar Opposite of “we, as a nation” deciding the issue.”
A lot of the folks now acting as if the method of removing the statues is their only complaint were not long ago, it seems to me, very much in favor of leaving them in place, and even supported efforts to deny the will of “we, as a nation,” or “we as a state” in this and other matters.
Bernard, I dont care about the statues themselves. As far as I know I’ve never seen one. But there is a process by which we as a nation decide things. As usual, when the left cant win the vote they protest the process.
John and russell, I can name lots of historical acts of violence by individuals, or even small groups, that I abhor. That’s different than running through the downtown of thirty cities smashing windows, throwing bombs and attacking the police. The fact that you support some unexpressed goal of the rioters doesnt mean their actions arent different in kind from any right wing demonstration you can name. Even at Charlottesville they showed up looking for a fight.
They are violent and dangerous, as are the right wing extremists, there are more of them and they currently act with practical impunity.
Bernard, I dont care about the statues themselves. As far as I know I’ve never seen one. But there is a process by which we as a nation decide things. As usual, when the left cant win the vote they protest the process.
John and russell, I can name lots of historical acts of violence by individuals, or even small groups, that I abhor. That’s different than running through the downtown of thirty cities smashing windows, throwing bombs and attacking the police. The fact that you support some unexpressed goal of the rioters doesnt mean their actions arent different in kind from any right wing demonstration you can name. Even at Charlottesville they showed up looking for a fight.
They are violent and dangerous, as are the right wing extremists, there are more of them and they currently act with practical impunity.
No point in discussing it further.
Have a nice night.
No point in discussing it further.
Have a nice night.
The formulation is this: to prevent this kind of vandalism, the American people must do what the vandals want.
A closer (imperfect, but closer) formulation might be: to prevent this kind of vandalism, give the people who agree with the vandals on ends** reasonable cause to believe that, if they persuade a plurality of their fellow citizens, the changes that they desire could happen via normal governmental process.
At the moment, that doesn’t exist in far too many places with Confederate statues.
** Without whom, the vandals would be dealt with more briskly.
The formulation is this: to prevent this kind of vandalism, the American people must do what the vandals want.
A closer (imperfect, but closer) formulation might be: to prevent this kind of vandalism, give the people who agree with the vandals on ends** reasonable cause to believe that, if they persuade a plurality of their fellow citizens, the changes that they desire could happen via normal governmental process.
At the moment, that doesn’t exist in far too many places with Confederate statues.
** Without whom, the vandals would be dealt with more briskly.
As usual, when the left cant win the vote they protest the process.
Yeah, the right rigs the process instead.
You do see the difference between the immediate aftermath of a horrific event and longer-term behavior, right? And you do see the difference between being ready for a fight and starting one, don’t you?
Maybe not. I should take russell’s advice.
As usual, when the left cant win the vote they protest the process.
Yeah, the right rigs the process instead.
You do see the difference between the immediate aftermath of a horrific event and longer-term behavior, right? And you do see the difference between being ready for a fight and starting one, don’t you?
Maybe not. I should take russell’s advice.
Speaking of the Bundy’s:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/idaho-reps-bogus-special-session-to-limit-guvs-covid-authority-ends-with-a-whimper
If a live Bundy stands still for five minutes, may I tear him down?
Incredible. As only the Republican Party can manage it, there’s not a Democrat or a BLM (neither one) in sight, but they’ve managed to get a “them” and an “us” going at full tilt among themselves.
There’s no three sides about it.
Imagine if Covid-19 was cholera or smallpox and someone suggested tracking who has what in Idaho.
They are certifiably insane and dangerous to the Republic for which statues stand.
Who are these “people”?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3BxhbolIZw
Speaking of the Bundy’s:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/idaho-reps-bogus-special-session-to-limit-guvs-covid-authority-ends-with-a-whimper
If a live Bundy stands still for five minutes, may I tear him down?
Incredible. As only the Republican Party can manage it, there’s not a Democrat or a BLM (neither one) in sight, but they’ve managed to get a “them” and an “us” going at full tilt among themselves.
There’s no three sides about it.
Imagine if Covid-19 was cholera or smallpox and someone suggested tracking who has what in Idaho.
They are certifiably insane and dangerous to the Republic for which statues stand.
Who are these “people”?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3BxhbolIZw
The US not only exports its culture but also its social movements…
Well, getting back to our original question, if you think about how fundamental the African American experience is to popular music, it shouldn’t come as a surprise. Unless you think that rock and roll started with Buddy Holly…
The US not only exports its culture but also its social movements…
Well, getting back to our original question, if you think about how fundamental the African American experience is to popular music, it shouldn’t come as a surprise. Unless you think that rock and roll started with Buddy Holly…
Time for a referendum on public memorials?
We could get a good board game company to design the rules for federal/state/local memorials to give us both broad representation and broad acceptance (if not full support).
Would be a productive conversation if handled correctly (which probably means it would be a disaster, but then what we have is a disaster, so…).
Time for a referendum on public memorials?
We could get a good board game company to design the rules for federal/state/local memorials to give us both broad representation and broad acceptance (if not full support).
Would be a productive conversation if handled correctly (which probably means it would be a disaster, but then what we have is a disaster, so…).
It could be that Covid-19 will make what we have been talking about here disappear off the radar.
Nothing has been done to get ready if, as it seems, this thing is here to stat for some interim:
https://www.marketwatch.com/articles/the-u-s-medical-supply-chain-isnt-ready-for-a-second-wave-51592953230?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
I fully expect Trump Republican operatives, as we near the November election, who have been purposefully infected with Covid-19, will attempt assassinations by viral loads of Joe Biden and Democratic candidates across the country.
We’re dealing with pure EVIL.
The conservative movement has succeeded in their dearest and most malign goal; make government irrelevant and useless and prevent its efficacy as a force for protecting the American people.
Getting us ready for the next year or two of this pandemic and stockpiling for our needs would seem the most elementary of goals.
Pork chops are a national security interest, but the orderly procurement and secure storage of virus prevention and contamination equipment are ignored.
Then, think about the 30% or more of the population who will refuse a vaccine because because because … gummint.
There may well be a vaccine available to Donald Trump and Mike Pence weeks before the election. They will make a show of receiving the shots on live TV and the internet, rolling up their sleeves and jokingly looking away from the injection like playful kids.
That vaccine will be fake.
If this sick culture is an export item, it should be blockaded and sanctioned by the rest of the world and labeled diseased and stamped with a skull and cross bones, like fissionable materials or Iranian oil.
It could be that Covid-19 will make what we have been talking about here disappear off the radar.
Nothing has been done to get ready if, as it seems, this thing is here to stat for some interim:
https://www.marketwatch.com/articles/the-u-s-medical-supply-chain-isnt-ready-for-a-second-wave-51592953230?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
I fully expect Trump Republican operatives, as we near the November election, who have been purposefully infected with Covid-19, will attempt assassinations by viral loads of Joe Biden and Democratic candidates across the country.
We’re dealing with pure EVIL.
The conservative movement has succeeded in their dearest and most malign goal; make government irrelevant and useless and prevent its efficacy as a force for protecting the American people.
Getting us ready for the next year or two of this pandemic and stockpiling for our needs would seem the most elementary of goals.
Pork chops are a national security interest, but the orderly procurement and secure storage of virus prevention and contamination equipment are ignored.
Then, think about the 30% or more of the population who will refuse a vaccine because because because … gummint.
There may well be a vaccine available to Donald Trump and Mike Pence weeks before the election. They will make a show of receiving the shots on live TV and the internet, rolling up their sleeves and jokingly looking away from the injection like playful kids.
That vaccine will be fake.
If this sick culture is an export item, it should be blockaded and sanctioned by the rest of the world and labeled diseased and stamped with a skull and cross bones, like fissionable materials or Iranian oil.
Speaking of unrestrained mobs, how about an unequivocal condemnation of the Boston Tea Party?
Speaking of unrestrained mobs, how about an unequivocal condemnation of the Boston Tea Party?
Everyone knows those were Mohawk Indians, the Antifa of them days.
Everyone knows those were Mohawk Indians, the Antifa of them days.
Wanna be canceled for saving the lives of gratitude-less Americans?
Work in public health care.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a32946585/public-health-officials-resigning-trump-administration-republican-covid-response/
Please check political affiliation instead of health insurance before allotting scarce healthcare hospital beds, ventilators, home care, emergency room services and medical providers’ lives to conservative republicans.
Isn’t rationing one of their favorite economic doodads?
Do it for the right reasons now.
Wanna be canceled for saving the lives of gratitude-less Americans?
Work in public health care.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a32946585/public-health-officials-resigning-trump-administration-republican-covid-response/
Please check political affiliation instead of health insurance before allotting scarce healthcare hospital beds, ventilators, home care, emergency room services and medical providers’ lives to conservative republicans.
Isn’t rationing one of their favorite economic doodads?
Do it for the right reasons now.
The cancellation culture of Rush Limbaugh and conservative social media:
https://www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/rush-limbaugh-and-right-wing-media-figures-spread-fake-ocasio-cortez-tweet
Usually dying assholes ease up on the malign Evil, figuring they are close to entering the pearly gates, but I think he’s trying to figure out how to sell the pearly gates on the black market and do his show from Hell.
He’s faking the lung cancer.
Either that, or he’s observing all of the social distancing protocols to save his EVIL butt.
I didn’t realize his personal doctor, Dr. Mengele, took cancer patients, except to the ovens.
I expect Limbaugh is forcing his expensive hookers to secure head to toe in reinforced disinfected spandex as they search for his pecker, while of course, they recite the Lord’s Prayer while gargling bleach.
His Medal of Freedom is a statue.
Biden needs to get that thing back.
The cancellation culture of Rush Limbaugh and conservative social media:
https://www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/rush-limbaugh-and-right-wing-media-figures-spread-fake-ocasio-cortez-tweet
Usually dying assholes ease up on the malign Evil, figuring they are close to entering the pearly gates, but I think he’s trying to figure out how to sell the pearly gates on the black market and do his show from Hell.
He’s faking the lung cancer.
Either that, or he’s observing all of the social distancing protocols to save his EVIL butt.
I didn’t realize his personal doctor, Dr. Mengele, took cancer patients, except to the ovens.
I expect Limbaugh is forcing his expensive hookers to secure head to toe in reinforced disinfected spandex as they search for his pecker, while of course, they recite the Lord’s Prayer while gargling bleach.
His Medal of Freedom is a statue.
Biden needs to get that thing back.
Getting ready to cancel, conservatives are:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/if-john-roberts-isnt-a-conservative-what-is-he-exactly/
One wonders when racist, contemptible “Lock and Load” Buchanan will have a statue erected of himself.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/buchanan/how-long-will-the-vandals-run-amok/
Tell me where it is.
Getting ready to cancel, conservatives are:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/if-john-roberts-isnt-a-conservative-what-is-he-exactly/
One wonders when racist, contemptible “Lock and Load” Buchanan will have a statue erected of himself.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/buchanan/how-long-will-the-vandals-run-amok/
Tell me where it is.
How Long Will the Vandals Run Amok?
So, are Antifa, in their black attire, the Goths?…
How Long Will the Vandals Run Amok?
So, are Antifa, in their black attire, the Goths?…
As usual, when the left cant win the vote they protest the process.
Sometimes the protests are justified.
As usual, when the left cant win the vote they protest the process.
Sometimes the protests are justified.
what byomtov said.
what byomtov said.
A brief accounting of civil unrest in US history.
It begins after the colonial period, which offered its own smorgasbord of mayhem.
Context.
A brief accounting of civil unrest in US history.
It begins after the colonial period, which offered its own smorgasbord of mayhem.
Context.
Governor, and I use the term lightly, Abbott of Texas, when he is canceled, can make a living touting for filling up empty hospital beds.
https://www.texastribune.org/2020/06/23/texas-coronavirus-hospitalizations-icu-houston/
Death and dying is good business. Get a piece of it.
Catch something!
Governor, and I use the term lightly, Abbott of Texas, when he is canceled, can make a living touting for filling up empty hospital beds.
https://www.texastribune.org/2020/06/23/texas-coronavirus-hospitalizations-icu-houston/
Death and dying is good business. Get a piece of it.
Catch something!
I think we’ve found the paragon of American bullshit, excepting Trump of course.
https://twitter.com/TheStalwart/status/1274066978911764488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1274066978911764488&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.marketwatch.com%2Fstory%2Fis-robinhood-making-money-off-those-day-trading-millennials-well-yes-thats-kind-of-the-point-2020-06-23
The Founders saw this coming too, besides the Lockheed Swiss Army Knife fighter jet with the clogged air filter, and Steve Bannon, who appeared to Aaron Burr during a wet dream.
They envisioned a guy who would come along and present, embody, the entire grift from the getgo.
This is why they left the Constitution to broad voluntary and provisional platitudes … because they saw this guy coming and who wants to stifle such perfect bullshit.
Hint: the grift is not choosing stocks via Scrabble letters.
That actually works. Which says something.
I think we’ve found the paragon of American bullshit, excepting Trump of course.
https://twitter.com/TheStalwart/status/1274066978911764488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1274066978911764488&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.marketwatch.com%2Fstory%2Fis-robinhood-making-money-off-those-day-trading-millennials-well-yes-thats-kind-of-the-point-2020-06-23
The Founders saw this coming too, besides the Lockheed Swiss Army Knife fighter jet with the clogged air filter, and Steve Bannon, who appeared to Aaron Burr during a wet dream.
They envisioned a guy who would come along and present, embody, the entire grift from the getgo.
This is why they left the Constitution to broad voluntary and provisional platitudes … because they saw this guy coming and who wants to stifle such perfect bullshit.
Hint: the grift is not choosing stocks via Scrabble letters.
That actually works. Which says something.
Question on my FB page, which reaches a few professional historians:
Has anyone produced a general US history textbook (HS or university level) for which the primary audience was assumed to be an African-American reader? A Native American reader?
So far no one has been able to point to one.
Question on my FB page, which reaches a few professional historians:
Has anyone produced a general US history textbook (HS or university level) for which the primary audience was assumed to be an African-American reader? A Native American reader?
So far no one has been able to point to one.
Did Marty and McKinney condemn the mob violence of the Orange Revolution? No.
Do Marty and McKinney condemn the Hong Kong riots? Not likely.
But, they will claim, those are different! No, grasshopper, it is a difference of degree, not kind.
So I ask them to join me to express deep deep regret that the Brooks Brothers rioters were not mercilessly gunned down by the National Guard as they so deserved to be as they were an out of control mob trying to violently stop our sacred democratic right to count the vote. We continue to live in the tragic historical backwash of that violent mob action.
Did Marty and McKinney condemn the mob violence of the Orange Revolution? No.
Do Marty and McKinney condemn the Hong Kong riots? Not likely.
But, they will claim, those are different! No, grasshopper, it is a difference of degree, not kind.
So I ask them to join me to express deep deep regret that the Brooks Brothers rioters were not mercilessly gunned down by the National Guard as they so deserved to be as they were an out of control mob trying to violently stop our sacred democratic right to count the vote. We continue to live in the tragic historical backwash of that violent mob action.
The Narrative of a Life of a Slave, Frederick Douglas
Chief Joseph, Nez Perce. Collected Quotes.
Generally not read or taught at any level, but texts nonetheless.
Easily rectified.
The Narrative of a Life of a Slave, Frederick Douglas
Chief Joseph, Nez Perce. Collected Quotes.
Generally not read or taught at any level, but texts nonetheless.
Easily rectified.
As usual, when the left cant win the vote they protest the process.
And when the right can’t win, they cheat.
Take your pick.
As usual, when the left cant win the vote they protest the process.
And when the right can’t win, they cheat.
Take your pick.
If only the Chicago Police force had been ordered in on the Brooks Brother riot.
With choke holds.
I can find solace among the Waste Land:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/white-house-wins-ruling-health-002632646.html
If only the Chicago Police force had been ordered in on the Brooks Brother riot.
With choke holds.
I can find solace among the Waste Land:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/white-house-wins-ruling-health-002632646.html
Actually, the American Conservative was full in on the Orange Revolution.
Then the protesters demanded pay raises and torched a Mercedes belonging to a conservative and not a peep since.
Actually, the American Conservative was full in on the Orange Revolution.
Then the protesters demanded pay raises and torched a Mercedes belonging to a conservative and not a peep since.
How much are these shoes?
I’m sorry sir, do not coerce me into naming a price.
Let it be a surprise between the two to us.
Basically, what the medical hospital association will say in their appeal of the ruling on revealing medical procedure prices.
Still, the hospital rank and file have been treated like shit.
How much are these shoes?
I’m sorry sir, do not coerce me into naming a price.
Let it be a surprise between the two to us.
Basically, what the medical hospital association will say in their appeal of the ruling on revealing medical procedure prices.
Still, the hospital rank and file have been treated like shit.
Apropos of nothing, except everything, and as a way of signing off because I’m too much, did you know that Desi Arnaz invited Shirley Jackson, author of “The Lottery”, and “The Haunting of Hill House”, among other much underrated works, to write an episode of “I Love Lucy”.
Jackson declined the offer.
Imagine.
That is all.
Apropos of nothing, except everything, and as a way of signing off because I’m too much, did you know that Desi Arnaz invited Shirley Jackson, author of “The Lottery”, and “The Haunting of Hill House”, among other much underrated works, to write an episode of “I Love Lucy”.
Jackson declined the offer.
Imagine.
That is all.
what kind of society values property over black lives?
The problem is, we know the answer to that question.
what kind of society values property over black lives?
The problem is, we know the answer to that question.
John Thullen – good books, and the Douglass narrative is widely taught, as lit if not as history. Chief Joseph less so outside of Native American studies.
But neither is a general history textbook of the sort used for US History in HS or for 100 level college courses.
John Thullen – good books, and the Douglass narrative is widely taught, as lit if not as history. Chief Joseph less so outside of Native American studies.
But neither is a general history textbook of the sort used for US History in HS or for 100 level college courses.
nous,
closest I could come up with is Zinn’s People’s History, but even that one does not meet your standard.
nous,
closest I could come up with is Zinn’s People’s History, but even that one does not meet your standard.
Possiable African American history textbooks:
African American History: The Development of a People
Creating Black Americans: African American History and Its Meanings, 1619 to the Present
From Slavery to Freedom: 10th Edition
Possiable African American history textbooks:
African American History: The Development of a People
Creating Black Americans: African American History and Its Meanings, 1619 to the Present
From Slavery to Freedom: 10th Edition
CharlesWT – those are probably good books, but they are not general history books, but rather African American history textbooks. I’m specifically wondering how one would go about presenting general history in a straight up US history course, but written in a way that identifies with a “marked” readers viewpoint by default and makes a non-marked audience secondary.
It’s an interesting thought problem that should be an actual project, and I’m hoping that somebody somewhere has already done this.
CharlesWT – those are probably good books, but they are not general history books, but rather African American history textbooks. I’m specifically wondering how one would go about presenting general history in a straight up US history course, but written in a way that identifies with a “marked” readers viewpoint by default and makes a non-marked audience secondary.
It’s an interesting thought problem that should be an actual project, and I’m hoping that somebody somewhere has already done this.
i support adding a 500ft Gen Sherman stomping on these three asshats.
I think I have a better idea. Vastly expand it (enough room for that) and make it a memorial to Ghost Riders in The Sky. Demon Cows in front, the Devil (who could be in the likeness of Sherman or not) in the back and the lyrics above. And maybe a KKK cowboy below to whom the warning is issued.
i support adding a 500ft Gen Sherman stomping on these three asshats.
I think I have a better idea. Vastly expand it (enough room for that) and make it a memorial to Ghost Riders in The Sky. Demon Cows in front, the Devil (who could be in the likeness of Sherman or not) in the back and the lyrics above. And maybe a KKK cowboy below to whom the warning is issued.
My favorite bit from the wiki page on civil unrest:
My favorite bit from the wiki page on civil unrest:
You know what, up thread a bit I got the Orange Revolution of Ukraine mixed up with France’s Yellow Vests of more recent vintage.
And they take such care to color code these things for us.
Color me wrong, but perhaps you already have.
You know what, up thread a bit I got the Orange Revolution of Ukraine mixed up with France’s Yellow Vests of more recent vintage.
And they take such care to color code these things for us.
Color me wrong, but perhaps you already have.
Even at Charlottesville they showed up looking for a fight.
they were at Charlottesville to protest white supremacist groups.
Even at Charlottesville they showed up looking for a fight.
they were at Charlottesville to protest white supremacist groups.
some points of view come armor-plated. you can keep on trying to make a dent, but at some point it’s best to just walk away.
some points of view come armor-plated. you can keep on trying to make a dent, but at some point it’s best to just walk away.
they were at Charlottesville to VIOLENTLY protest white supremacist groups.
But then we cant discuss that, that’s the third side yall keep saying cant exist. White supremacist groups suck, violent antifa groups suck.
I support neither side. I’m for not having violent reactionaries on either side.
they were at Charlottesville to VIOLENTLY protest white supremacist groups.
But then we cant discuss that, that’s the third side yall keep saying cant exist. White supremacist groups suck, violent antifa groups suck.
I support neither side. I’m for not having violent reactionaries on either side.
this Oppose The Libz reflex puts people into strange positions.
this Oppose The Libz reflex puts people into strange positions.
But then we cant discuss that, that’s the third side yall keep saying cant exist. White supremacist groups suck, violent antifa groups suck.
on one hand, violent racists. on the other hand people who are violent towards violent racists.
same/same.
yes?
But then we cant discuss that, that’s the third side yall keep saying cant exist. White supremacist groups suck, violent antifa groups suck.
on one hand, violent racists. on the other hand people who are violent towards violent racists.
same/same.
yes?
No, not the same, but both wrong.
No, not the same, but both wrong.
Only Marty is right. Because …
–TP
Only Marty is right. Because …
–TP
I dont think my reflex is the one that puts me in a strange position. I find the reflex to support violent rioting vandalism by the Libz is the dissonant position.
No, not the same but both wrong is pretty straightforward.
I dont think my reflex is the one that puts me in a strange position. I find the reflex to support violent rioting vandalism by the Libz is the dissonant position.
No, not the same but both wrong is pretty straightforward.
No, not the same, but both wrong.
equally wrong?
both groups are going to the same circle of hell?
what’s the correct way to protest racism?
it’s not silently kneeling.
it’s not peacefully marching.
it’s not confronting skinhead gangs.
No, not the same, but both wrong.
equally wrong?
both groups are going to the same circle of hell?
what’s the correct way to protest racism?
it’s not silently kneeling.
it’s not peacefully marching.
it’s not confronting skinhead gangs.
John, I think the Yellow vests were much like the current riots here, broad support for the protest not so much for the violence. But that’s my recollection.
Hong Kong protests seemed more like the Tea Party, though futile, in that those peoe were sold to the Chinese and the ultimate ramifications are occupation. Somewhat different in kind.
John, I think the Yellow vests were much like the current riots here, broad support for the protest not so much for the violence. But that’s my recollection.
Hong Kong protests seemed more like the Tea Party, though futile, in that those peoe were sold to the Chinese and the ultimate ramifications are occupation. Somewhat different in kind.
Of course you think what you think, Marty.
But if you think the rest of us “support violent rioting vandalism by the Libz”, but you DON’T reflexively support every authoritarian thug and violent racist that comes along, you haven’t been reading everything you’ve written here for over a decade.
–TP
Of course you think what you think, Marty.
But if you think the rest of us “support violent rioting vandalism by the Libz”, but you DON’T reflexively support every authoritarian thug and violent racist that comes along, you haven’t been reading everything you’ve written here for over a decade.
–TP
Attacking peoe and property is wrong. Period. We are not talking about circles of hell. You are defending thugs and terrorists under the guise of them being against thugs and terrorists.
I didnt say kneeling was inappropriate, I said it was a pity, its intention I’m certain.
I’ve certainly never said a peaceful March was inappropriate.
Confronting skinhead gangs to incite violence is wrong. Intentionally putting people in danger to make your point is stupid, illegal and counterproductive. What could go wrong?
Attacking peoe and property is wrong. Period. We are not talking about circles of hell. You are defending thugs and terrorists under the guise of them being against thugs and terrorists.
I didnt say kneeling was inappropriate, I said it was a pity, its intention I’m certain.
I’ve certainly never said a peaceful March was inappropriate.
Confronting skinhead gangs to incite violence is wrong. Intentionally putting people in danger to make your point is stupid, illegal and counterproductive. What could go wrong?
Pity = pita
Pity = pita
I usually ignore you Tony, but I dont support any racist period.
I dont condone or support violence, although I have defended the one politician who got pissed and choked a guy who was harassing him, while recognizing it wasnt a correct response.
So no, you are wrong, and I would appreciate you not generalizing such an accusation. Be cause of course that’s what you want, is to generally accuse me so you dont have to back it up with a fact.
I usually ignore you Tony, but I dont support any racist period.
I dont condone or support violence, although I have defended the one politician who got pissed and choked a guy who was harassing him, while recognizing it wasnt a correct response.
So no, you are wrong, and I would appreciate you not generalizing such an accusation. Be cause of course that’s what you want, is to generally accuse me so you dont have to back it up with a fact.
You are defending thugs and terrorists under the guise of them being against thugs and terrorists.
i’m trying to figure out just how much you care about racism. because, as always, you’re doing your damndest to make sure that we know you hate the liberal “side” of this; but you’re not saying much about the point of it all – the racism.
You are defending thugs and terrorists under the guise of them being against thugs and terrorists.
i’m trying to figure out just how much you care about racism. because, as always, you’re doing your damndest to make sure that we know you hate the liberal “side” of this; but you’re not saying much about the point of it all – the racism.
I find the reflex to support violent rioting vandalism by the Libz is the dissonant position.
Ah, yes. That’s what everyone’s been saying. I like how you switch between “protest” and “violent rioting” as needed. It’s not obvious bad faith or anything like that.
I find the reflex to support violent rioting vandalism by the Libz is the dissonant position.
Ah, yes. That’s what everyone’s been saying. I like how you switch between “protest” and “violent rioting” as needed. It’s not obvious bad faith or anything like that.
The point of it is what? How is the rioting and vandalism helping to solve racism?
Every day in every media forum you can find reasonable people tuning out because of the rioting.
After 50 years of being a staunch supporter of the Civil Rights movement, and subsequently any number of community initiatives to create opportunity, I find the violence counterproductive and the proposed equity initiatives stupid. And I thought about the stupid word, I cant imagine what else to call it.
So, outside of this forum,I am silent because, just like here, any dissent is racist. So I just listen and learn and dont participate because that’s what I’m told is what I’m supposed to do. Except when I’m supposed to speak up, but then I dont really grasp things because I’m too stupid so I should shut up and listen more.
Wtf.
The point of it is what? How is the rioting and vandalism helping to solve racism?
Every day in every media forum you can find reasonable people tuning out because of the rioting.
After 50 years of being a staunch supporter of the Civil Rights movement, and subsequently any number of community initiatives to create opportunity, I find the violence counterproductive and the proposed equity initiatives stupid. And I thought about the stupid word, I cant imagine what else to call it.
So, outside of this forum,I am silent because, just like here, any dissent is racist. So I just listen and learn and dont participate because that’s what I’m told is what I’m supposed to do. Except when I’m supposed to speak up, but then I dont really grasp things because I’m too stupid so I should shut up and listen more.
Wtf.
I support protest. And dont support rioting and vandalism. I dont switch back and forth.
I support protest. And dont support rioting and vandalism. I dont switch back and forth.
Great. So you think the Boston Tea Party was wrong.
Great. So you think the Boston Tea Party was wrong.
The point of it is what? How is the rioting and vandalism helping to solve racism?
The point of it, I should think is this: If you are truly outraged by “rioting and vandalism” then you should be holding your head in shame about a country that was founded on violent treason, violently stole its territory from the previous inhabitants who it then gratuitously slaughtered, used rioting and terror to hold an entire race of people down for hundreds of years.
The proper response to an acknowledgment of shame to right the wrong.
That wrong has not been righted. There is a debt owed. We need to pay it.
The point of it is what? How is the rioting and vandalism helping to solve racism?
The point of it, I should think is this: If you are truly outraged by “rioting and vandalism” then you should be holding your head in shame about a country that was founded on violent treason, violently stole its territory from the previous inhabitants who it then gratuitously slaughtered, used rioting and terror to hold an entire race of people down for hundreds of years.
The proper response to an acknowledgment of shame to right the wrong.
That wrong has not been righted. There is a debt owed. We need to pay it.
hsh, I already commented on that above. But that’s as bad faith an argument as exists. I wasnt there, the problem ended up causing a violent revolution, if that’s where we are going I think that’s a mistake, now. Maybe it was then, I wasnt there. It certainly didnt solve any problem as far as I can see.
hsh, I already commented on that above. But that’s as bad faith an argument as exists. I wasnt there, the problem ended up causing a violent revolution, if that’s where we are going I think that’s a mistake, now. Maybe it was then, I wasnt there. It certainly didnt solve any problem as far as I can see.
What form of protest DO you support, Marty? Peaceful, orderly, polite demonstrations that inconvenience nobody and involve no language stronger than “I mildly object to X”?
However would you personally learn that such a protest had even taken place?
How should the peaceful, orderly, polite demonstrators react when thugs in cop uniforms shove them to the ground?
How should the peaceful, orderly, polite demonstrators react when thugs in MAGA hats, or “peacefully” brandishing firearms, confront them?
How would you advise peaceful, orderly, polite Nazis or Klansmen to “protest”? Or anti-choice zealots, for that matter?
Your schtick is always “You Libz are doing it wrong”. Okay, YOU tell us how to do it right. But if your advice amounts to “don’t rock the boat”, don’t expect to be taken seriously.
This is a revolution dammit! We have to offend somebody!
–TP
What form of protest DO you support, Marty? Peaceful, orderly, polite demonstrations that inconvenience nobody and involve no language stronger than “I mildly object to X”?
However would you personally learn that such a protest had even taken place?
How should the peaceful, orderly, polite demonstrators react when thugs in cop uniforms shove them to the ground?
How should the peaceful, orderly, polite demonstrators react when thugs in MAGA hats, or “peacefully” brandishing firearms, confront them?
How would you advise peaceful, orderly, polite Nazis or Klansmen to “protest”? Or anti-choice zealots, for that matter?
Your schtick is always “You Libz are doing it wrong”. Okay, YOU tell us how to do it right. But if your advice amounts to “don’t rock the boat”, don’t expect to be taken seriously.
This is a revolution dammit! We have to offend somebody!
–TP
But that’s as bad faith an argument as exists.
Like anyone could even know that. (Napoleon Dynamite humor)
But that’s as bad faith an argument as exists.
Like anyone could even know that. (Napoleon Dynamite humor)
they were at Charlottesville to VIOLENTLY protest white supremacist groups.
Who is “they”?
I know people who were at Charlottesville. They weren’t violent.
Some of them owed their safety on that day to some of the people you’re calling out here as “violent reactionaries”. So, there’s that.
It’s complicated.
But then we cant discuss that
I believe it was discussed at length at the time, and now here we are, again.
I’m for not having violent reactionaries on either side.
That’s a perfectly reasonable position.
If we’re going to have anything like a reasonable discussion of any of this, we’re going to have to recognize that people are engaging with the Floyd protest phenomena with a really wide variety of agendas and goals, and with a really wide variety of tactics.
Some people – which is to say, an enormous number of people – are showing up to peacefully protest the murder of George Floyd, with all of the attendant issues of racism and police conduct that come along with that.
Some people – on both sides – are engaging in civil disobedience that involves the destruction of public property.
Some people – on several sides – are exploiting the protests to engage in direct action involving the destruction of property and violence against people, including police, to advance agendas that have nothing whatsoever to do with Floyd’s murder.
Some people are shooting people because they think rioters are going to wreck their property. Sometimes those fears are justified, sometimes they are not. Sometimes the property in question belongs to them, sometimes it doesn’t.
Some cops are behaving in amazingly responsible ways, some are basically engaging in a riot of their own.
Some people are looting and trashing property in a deliberate attempt to discredit the peaceful protestors.
Some people are looting and trashing property because, hey, free stuff.
And some people just like to watch stuff burn.
All of that is going on. And probably a dozen other things that don’t come to mind at the moment.
If you’re gonna talk about this stuff, you’re obliged to recognize that ALL OF THAT is going on.
There is no one thing that are “the protests”.
People are fucking pissed off. They’ve had enough of 1,000 different kinds of shit. Some of them are expressing that in responsible ways, some less so, some not at all. And lots of other people are jumping in with their own projects and agendas, including just fucking around with the situation because its sufficiently chaotic – for lots of reasons – that they can get away with it.
So pick your topic and address whichever piece or pieces of that you want to, but unless you want to just yell at clouds here, you need to be clear about what it is you’re addressing.
they were at Charlottesville to VIOLENTLY protest white supremacist groups.
Who is “they”?
I know people who were at Charlottesville. They weren’t violent.
Some of them owed their safety on that day to some of the people you’re calling out here as “violent reactionaries”. So, there’s that.
It’s complicated.
But then we cant discuss that
I believe it was discussed at length at the time, and now here we are, again.
I’m for not having violent reactionaries on either side.
That’s a perfectly reasonable position.
If we’re going to have anything like a reasonable discussion of any of this, we’re going to have to recognize that people are engaging with the Floyd protest phenomena with a really wide variety of agendas and goals, and with a really wide variety of tactics.
Some people – which is to say, an enormous number of people – are showing up to peacefully protest the murder of George Floyd, with all of the attendant issues of racism and police conduct that come along with that.
Some people – on both sides – are engaging in civil disobedience that involves the destruction of public property.
Some people – on several sides – are exploiting the protests to engage in direct action involving the destruction of property and violence against people, including police, to advance agendas that have nothing whatsoever to do with Floyd’s murder.
Some people are shooting people because they think rioters are going to wreck their property. Sometimes those fears are justified, sometimes they are not. Sometimes the property in question belongs to them, sometimes it doesn’t.
Some cops are behaving in amazingly responsible ways, some are basically engaging in a riot of their own.
Some people are looting and trashing property in a deliberate attempt to discredit the peaceful protestors.
Some people are looting and trashing property because, hey, free stuff.
And some people just like to watch stuff burn.
All of that is going on. And probably a dozen other things that don’t come to mind at the moment.
If you’re gonna talk about this stuff, you’re obliged to recognize that ALL OF THAT is going on.
There is no one thing that are “the protests”.
People are fucking pissed off. They’ve had enough of 1,000 different kinds of shit. Some of them are expressing that in responsible ways, some less so, some not at all. And lots of other people are jumping in with their own projects and agendas, including just fucking around with the situation because its sufficiently chaotic – for lots of reasons – that they can get away with it.
So pick your topic and address whichever piece or pieces of that you want to, but unless you want to just yell at clouds here, you need to be clear about what it is you’re addressing.
My thinking is that I support every action anyone has taken so long as I agree with their politics. Or at least I think that’s what Marty thinks I think. All the other libz, too.
My thinking is that I support every action anyone has taken so long as I agree with their politics. Or at least I think that’s what Marty thinks I think. All the other libz, too.
seems to me that violence almost always gets the other side* to dig in even deeper. so maybe it’s not a great way to negotiate. but it’s often a sign of frustration over the fact that negotiating, or politely asking, or peacefully protesting, or even legislating, isn’t working. violence is never people’s first resort [psychotics aside].
and, it seems to me, that one must distinguish violence in support of evil vs violence against that evil. to refuse to do so is immoral.
that doesn’t mean i think antifa is a net-plus in these BLM protests. i do approve of their goals in this situation (support BLM by making it clear that racists are not welcome), even if i disagree with their means.
but racists? be they peaceful or polite or violent, i want them to feel threatened, despised and unwelcome. they’re evil. they don’t deserve a seat at the table.
* the “other side” here is people who won’t admit systemic racism exists or is worth solving? W.T.F.
seems to me that violence almost always gets the other side* to dig in even deeper. so maybe it’s not a great way to negotiate. but it’s often a sign of frustration over the fact that negotiating, or politely asking, or peacefully protesting, or even legislating, isn’t working. violence is never people’s first resort [psychotics aside].
and, it seems to me, that one must distinguish violence in support of evil vs violence against that evil. to refuse to do so is immoral.
that doesn’t mean i think antifa is a net-plus in these BLM protests. i do approve of their goals in this situation (support BLM by making it clear that racists are not welcome), even if i disagree with their means.
but racists? be they peaceful or polite or violent, i want them to feel threatened, despised and unwelcome. they’re evil. they don’t deserve a seat at the table.
* the “other side” here is people who won’t admit systemic racism exists or is worth solving? W.T.F.
what’s the correct way to protest racism?
it’s not silently kneeling.
it’s not peacefully marching.
it’s not confronting skinhead gangs.
Is it this?
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/06/24/madison-protesters-pull-down-forward-hans-christian-heg-statues-attack-senator-sculptures-in-lake/3247948001/
People are fucking pissed off. They’ve had enough of 1,000 different kinds of shit. Some of them are expressing that in responsible ways, some less so, some not at all. And lots of other people are jumping in with their own projects and agendas, including just fucking around with the situation because its sufficiently chaotic – for lots of reasons – that they can get away with it.
Actually, do we have a head count on how AA’s see all of this stuff? I mean, other than what white peeps think AA’s think and what the BLM spokes people say AA’s think, do we really have a good idea?
Because one thing that pops out to me is, while a lot of AA’s are probably on board with dumping confederate statues, making June 19th a holiday and generally improving economic opportunity, I strongly suspect that the full BLM agenda is not supported anywhere other than within the limited confines of the Woke/Progressive left.
I also suspect that the long this goes on and the more heated the rhetoric becomes, AA’s and most other folks are going to grow weary.
what’s the correct way to protest racism?
it’s not silently kneeling.
it’s not peacefully marching.
it’s not confronting skinhead gangs.
Is it this?
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/06/24/madison-protesters-pull-down-forward-hans-christian-heg-statues-attack-senator-sculptures-in-lake/3247948001/
People are fucking pissed off. They’ve had enough of 1,000 different kinds of shit. Some of them are expressing that in responsible ways, some less so, some not at all. And lots of other people are jumping in with their own projects and agendas, including just fucking around with the situation because its sufficiently chaotic – for lots of reasons – that they can get away with it.
Actually, do we have a head count on how AA’s see all of this stuff? I mean, other than what white peeps think AA’s think and what the BLM spokes people say AA’s think, do we really have a good idea?
Because one thing that pops out to me is, while a lot of AA’s are probably on board with dumping confederate statues, making June 19th a holiday and generally improving economic opportunity, I strongly suspect that the full BLM agenda is not supported anywhere other than within the limited confines of the Woke/Progressive left.
I also suspect that the long this goes on and the more heated the rhetoric becomes, AA’s and most other folks are going to grow weary.
We really have reached a point where people are basically looking at Nat Turner’s revolt and the KKK and saying that they are equivalent and should be equally denounced.
We really have reached a point where people are basically looking at Nat Turner’s revolt and the KKK and saying that they are equivalent and should be equally denounced.
86%
86%
Actually, do we have a head count on how AA’s see all of this stuff?
What quite a few AA’s are seeing is their business and other properties vandalized, looted, and destroyed.
Actually, do we have a head count on how AA’s see all of this stuff?
What quite a few AA’s are seeing is their business and other properties vandalized, looted, and destroyed.
The eternal present tense of looting.
The eternal present tense of looting.
What quite a few AA’s are seeing is their business and other properties vandalized, looted, and destroyed.
perspective:
What quite a few AA’s are seeing is their business and other properties vandalized, looted, and destroyed.
perspective:
Individual business owners have the right to feel however they wish about damages to their businesses. But it seems all too easy to slip into the ends justify the means.
Individual business owners have the right to feel however they wish about damages to their businesses. But it seems all too easy to slip into the ends justify the means.
More info on black American’s opinions on events here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/poll-black-americans-outraged-by-george-floyds-death-but-optimistic-about-change-after-nationwide-protests/2020/06/24/1daad46a-b49e-11ea-a510-55bf26485c93_story.html
More info on black American’s opinions on events here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/poll-black-americans-outraged-by-george-floyds-death-but-optimistic-about-change-after-nationwide-protests/2020/06/24/1daad46a-b49e-11ea-a510-55bf26485c93_story.html
Tim Carpenter, the individual assaulted in McTX’s link, is a gay Democratic Party State Senator in Wisconsin who has fought the fascist anti-labor Wisconsin Republican Party’s attempts to prevent black and other minority voters from exercising their voting franchises, among other outrages perpetrated by the Walker mal-administration.
He’s not a statue.
Who assaulted him?
So-called Antifa? BLM? Outside agitators? Undercover right-wing militia members?
Whomever, the individuals should be prosecuted.
But, as in the riots of the 1960s and early 1970s, as usual, black and minority business and property owners and those individuals fighting racism take the brunt.
While the real villains escape scot-free because they have segregated themselves into all white localities with overwhelming law enforcement support.
People ARE pissed off. Because the usual suspects refused to address cop brutality as it happened time after time after time AND rigged and gerrymandered voting districts to silence the voices of those most affected by the injustice.
In fact, Walker and company loved every minute of it. They kept deliberately stoking this shit.
I hate their fucking guts.
Then comes the explosion. Shrapnel destroys the innocent while the right wing capitalizes with more of the same.
That’s gotta change.
Tim Carpenter, the individual assaulted in McTX’s link, is a gay Democratic Party State Senator in Wisconsin who has fought the fascist anti-labor Wisconsin Republican Party’s attempts to prevent black and other minority voters from exercising their voting franchises, among other outrages perpetrated by the Walker mal-administration.
He’s not a statue.
Who assaulted him?
So-called Antifa? BLM? Outside agitators? Undercover right-wing militia members?
Whomever, the individuals should be prosecuted.
But, as in the riots of the 1960s and early 1970s, as usual, black and minority business and property owners and those individuals fighting racism take the brunt.
While the real villains escape scot-free because they have segregated themselves into all white localities with overwhelming law enforcement support.
People ARE pissed off. Because the usual suspects refused to address cop brutality as it happened time after time after time AND rigged and gerrymandered voting districts to silence the voices of those most affected by the injustice.
In fact, Walker and company loved every minute of it. They kept deliberately stoking this shit.
I hate their fucking guts.
Then comes the explosion. Shrapnel destroys the innocent while the right wing capitalizes with more of the same.
That’s gotta change.
no no. nothing can change. there’s nothing wrong. besides, there’s a culture war on, donchano. it would be wrong to distract from the real enemy: the perfidious left, who does things no honorable conservative (i repeat myself) would ever do. and it would be wrong to give them what they want.
no no. nothing can change. there’s nothing wrong. besides, there’s a culture war on, donchano. it would be wrong to distract from the real enemy: the perfidious left, who does things no honorable conservative (i repeat myself) would ever do. and it would be wrong to give them what they want.
Meanwhile, bullshit trump republican fascism advances:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/michael-flynn-appeals-court-opinion
Meanwhile, bullshit trump republican fascism advances:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/michael-flynn-appeals-court-opinion
Trump said yesterday that the November election will be the most corrupt in history.
His modus operandi, throughout his life, is to tell us what he plans to do under the guise of accusing all others of the crimes, like when Michael Corleone puts that big wet kiss on the pathetic brother, Fredo.
Never get in a rowboat in deep water with a Trump Republican Judge carrying a shotgun.
I’m taking Trump at his word:
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/06/24/how-trump-will-try-to-steal-the-election/
We ain’t seen nothing yet, and when the Republican Party steals this election, or even worse, refuses to acknowledge their loss, we’ll tear up the pavement of the streets already burned to the ground.
Remember, those courtrooms where Trump plans on digging in to overthrow the people’s will are statues of a sort.
I have a humdinger of a rant in the hopper regarding the global warming-induced methane exhalation now proceeding apace from the Arctic not-so-permafrost which, like the grievances of BLM, is rejected out of hand as something we just have to live without government amelioration, in fact, WITH government encouragement.
No, we don’t.
Another day, perhaps.
Trump said yesterday that the November election will be the most corrupt in history.
His modus operandi, throughout his life, is to tell us what he plans to do under the guise of accusing all others of the crimes, like when Michael Corleone puts that big wet kiss on the pathetic brother, Fredo.
Never get in a rowboat in deep water with a Trump Republican Judge carrying a shotgun.
I’m taking Trump at his word:
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/06/24/how-trump-will-try-to-steal-the-election/
We ain’t seen nothing yet, and when the Republican Party steals this election, or even worse, refuses to acknowledge their loss, we’ll tear up the pavement of the streets already burned to the ground.
Remember, those courtrooms where Trump plans on digging in to overthrow the people’s will are statues of a sort.
I have a humdinger of a rant in the hopper regarding the global warming-induced methane exhalation now proceeding apace from the Arctic not-so-permafrost which, like the grievances of BLM, is rejected out of hand as something we just have to live without government amelioration, in fact, WITH government encouragement.
No, we don’t.
Another day, perhaps.
Actually, do we have a head count on how AA’s see all of this stuff?
no.
I’m sure there are as many points of view on all of this within the African American community as there are within any other community of similar size and variety.
Mostly I think AA’s would like to not have cops kneel on their necks, but I’m not black, so I’m not really in a position to speak for them.
And as always, I’m not sure you have a full grasp of what Black Lives Matter is about. I’m very sure that I don’t, but from the tiny bit I do understand about it, I suspect it’s broader and more constructive than what your understanding appears to be.
Just my impression.
Actually, do we have a head count on how AA’s see all of this stuff?
no.
I’m sure there are as many points of view on all of this within the African American community as there are within any other community of similar size and variety.
Mostly I think AA’s would like to not have cops kneel on their necks, but I’m not black, so I’m not really in a position to speak for them.
And as always, I’m not sure you have a full grasp of what Black Lives Matter is about. I’m very sure that I don’t, but from the tiny bit I do understand about it, I suspect it’s broader and more constructive than what your understanding appears to be.
Just my impression.
Actually, do we have a head count on how AA’s see all of this stuff?
no.
my 10:58, above has a link to a poll on this exact question. 86% of AAs support BLM, according to Pew.
also from that survey, when asked which factor “contributed a great deal to the demonstrations over the death of George Floyd”, 82% of Republicans said it was “people taking advantage of the situation to engage in criminal behavior”.
also, just 45% of Republicans said it was due to “longstanding concerns about the treatment of black people in this country”.
so, McTx and Marty here are right in line with the rest of the GOP.
Actually, do we have a head count on how AA’s see all of this stuff?
no.
my 10:58, above has a link to a poll on this exact question. 86% of AAs support BLM, according to Pew.
also from that survey, when asked which factor “contributed a great deal to the demonstrations over the death of George Floyd”, 82% of Republicans said it was “people taking advantage of the situation to engage in criminal behavior”.
also, just 45% of Republicans said it was due to “longstanding concerns about the treatment of black people in this country”.
so, McTx and Marty here are right in line with the rest of the GOP.
the discrimination will continue until morale improves.
the discrimination will continue until morale improves.
Here is a nice piece on Woke intolerance:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/andrew-sullivan-is-there-still-room-for-debate.html
Cleek–who was unhappy that someone he knew lost their business in the riot portion of the demonstrations–simply knows no distinctions. Demonstrations and protests are fine. I said so. So did Marty. This is Cleek making stuff up. BLM is riding a wave of popularity because everyone agrees–it’s shooting fish in a barrel with a shotgun–that police murdering suspects is just flat wrong and standing on a compliant, handcuffed prisoner’s neck for 9 or 12 minutes is beyond description.
No one is arguing that point, Cleek. The issue is the violence, the destruction and the Woke way of looking at things. Does everyone buy into the BLM’s detailed mission statement? Particularly once it’s fully unpacked? Not likely.
The left fancies itself as the soul of tolerance. BS on that too. Sullivan calls out the intolerant left perfectly. It is precisely what Sullivan addresses far better than me that makes pretty much everything the Woke left says about race suspect. It isn’t actual equality that the Cleeks of this world want. They want submission and confession. From everyone. Under their terms. Sullivan has Cleek’s number. Thanks, Sullivan.
Here is a nice piece on Woke intolerance:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/andrew-sullivan-is-there-still-room-for-debate.html
Cleek–who was unhappy that someone he knew lost their business in the riot portion of the demonstrations–simply knows no distinctions. Demonstrations and protests are fine. I said so. So did Marty. This is Cleek making stuff up. BLM is riding a wave of popularity because everyone agrees–it’s shooting fish in a barrel with a shotgun–that police murdering suspects is just flat wrong and standing on a compliant, handcuffed prisoner’s neck for 9 or 12 minutes is beyond description.
No one is arguing that point, Cleek. The issue is the violence, the destruction and the Woke way of looking at things. Does everyone buy into the BLM’s detailed mission statement? Particularly once it’s fully unpacked? Not likely.
The left fancies itself as the soul of tolerance. BS on that too. Sullivan calls out the intolerant left perfectly. It is precisely what Sullivan addresses far better than me that makes pretty much everything the Woke left says about race suspect. It isn’t actual equality that the Cleeks of this world want. They want submission and confession. From everyone. Under their terms. Sullivan has Cleek’s number. Thanks, Sullivan.
But it seems all too easy to slip into the ends justify the means.
You mean like we must have pure unadulterated capitalism and don’t really give f@ck if the earth burns up? Those kind of ends and means?
But it seems all too easy to slip into the ends justify the means.
You mean like we must have pure unadulterated capitalism and don’t really give f@ck if the earth burns up? Those kind of ends and means?
Thanks, Sullivan.
A couple of things.
First, I absolutely agree that people “on the left” who think of themselves as “woke” can be. self-righteous and intolerant. Probably half the people I know fall into this bucket, and I recognize (not infrequently in myself) their flaws. We all have them.
That said, Sullivan leads off with Vaclav Havel, and I quit reading at that point. In Vaclav Havel’s Czechoslovakia, “policing dissent” took the form of imprisonment, exile, and death. Compare and contrast with “I got yelled at on Twitter”. I accept that analogies don’t have to be perfect, but I require that they not be obscene. Sullivan can, as is so often the case, kiss my ass.
I’m glad we’ve reached the point where reaching agreement that cops murdering people is like shooting fish in a barrel. It only took 400 years to get here.
Thanks, Sullivan.
A couple of things.
First, I absolutely agree that people “on the left” who think of themselves as “woke” can be. self-righteous and intolerant. Probably half the people I know fall into this bucket, and I recognize (not infrequently in myself) their flaws. We all have them.
That said, Sullivan leads off with Vaclav Havel, and I quit reading at that point. In Vaclav Havel’s Czechoslovakia, “policing dissent” took the form of imprisonment, exile, and death. Compare and contrast with “I got yelled at on Twitter”. I accept that analogies don’t have to be perfect, but I require that they not be obscene. Sullivan can, as is so often the case, kiss my ass.
I’m glad we’ve reached the point where reaching agreement that cops murdering people is like shooting fish in a barrel. It only took 400 years to get here.
“agreement that cops murdering people *is bad* is like shooting fish in a barrel”.
the correction does not extend to the 400 years.
“agreement that cops murdering people *is bad* is like shooting fish in a barrel”.
the correction does not extend to the 400 years.
Cleek–who was unhappy that someone he knew lost their business in the riot portion of the demonstrations–simply knows no distinctions
i have no fucking idea what you’re talking about. and suspect you don’t either.
Cleek–who was unhappy that someone he knew lost their business in the riot portion of the demonstrations–simply knows no distinctions
i have no fucking idea what you’re talking about. and suspect you don’t either.
The left fancies itself as the soul of tolerance.
I’m part of “the left” if we’re being binary about it. (Maybe even if we’re being trinary about it and including “the middle.”) I don’t think everyone on the left is tolerant. I’d guess there are at least a few people on the left who think everyone on the left is tolerant (by definition?). But, since I don’t believe the things the left is supposed to believe and I assume I’m on the left (as it’s being used here), I don’t know what I’m supposed to do with this assertion. Categories…
The left fancies itself as the soul of tolerance.
I’m part of “the left” if we’re being binary about it. (Maybe even if we’re being trinary about it and including “the middle.”) I don’t think everyone on the left is tolerant. I’d guess there are at least a few people on the left who think everyone on the left is tolerant (by definition?). But, since I don’t believe the things the left is supposed to believe and I assume I’m on the left (as it’s being used here), I don’t know what I’m supposed to do with this assertion. Categories…
. The issue is the violence, the destruction and the Woke way of looking at things.
omfg. you sound like Lou Dobbs.
the issue is the motherfucking police violence. the fact that you, and the rest of the GOP, can’t go three sentences without trying to turn this into a referendum on the bogeymen you’ve paint “LEFT” labels on is, and has been for several decades, part of the reason this shit isn’t getting dealt with. you keep hand-waving it away as if black people are making it all up, as if they don’t know what they’re talking about, as if they can’t comprehend the world around them the way you can.
like the survey says: you don’t even know what they’re complaining about, and you don’t believe them when they tell you.
. The issue is the violence, the destruction and the Woke way of looking at things.
omfg. you sound like Lou Dobbs.
the issue is the motherfucking police violence. the fact that you, and the rest of the GOP, can’t go three sentences without trying to turn this into a referendum on the bogeymen you’ve paint “LEFT” labels on is, and has been for several decades, part of the reason this shit isn’t getting dealt with. you keep hand-waving it away as if black people are making it all up, as if they don’t know what they’re talking about, as if they can’t comprehend the world around them the way you can.
like the survey says: you don’t even know what they’re complaining about, and you don’t believe them when they tell you.
Interesting that McT quotes Sullivan as I have been trying to work on something that has him as a piece. Great minds I suppose. Or synchronicity.
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/19/524571669/model-minority-myth-again-used-as-a-racial-wedge-between-asians-and-blacks
here’s a pull graf, but as they used to say before twitter, read the whole thing
“Sullivan’s comments showcase a classic and tenacious conservative strategy,” Janelle Wong, the director of Asian American Studies at the University of Maryland, College Park, said in an email. This strategy, she said, involves “1) ignoring the role that selective recruitment of highly educated Asian immigrants has played in Asian American success followed by 2) making a flawed comparison between Asian Americans and other groups, particularly Black Americans, to argue that racism, including more than two centuries of black enslavement, can be overcome by hard work and strong family values.”
Classic and tenacious are two adjectives I’d use for the two M’s. It is, as one of the M’s pointed out in grammar that is fascinating “But that’s as bad faith an argument as exists.” Don’t bite hooks.
Interesting that McT quotes Sullivan as I have been trying to work on something that has him as a piece. Great minds I suppose. Or synchronicity.
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/19/524571669/model-minority-myth-again-used-as-a-racial-wedge-between-asians-and-blacks
here’s a pull graf, but as they used to say before twitter, read the whole thing
“Sullivan’s comments showcase a classic and tenacious conservative strategy,” Janelle Wong, the director of Asian American Studies at the University of Maryland, College Park, said in an email. This strategy, she said, involves “1) ignoring the role that selective recruitment of highly educated Asian immigrants has played in Asian American success followed by 2) making a flawed comparison between Asian Americans and other groups, particularly Black Americans, to argue that racism, including more than two centuries of black enslavement, can be overcome by hard work and strong family values.”
Classic and tenacious are two adjectives I’d use for the two M’s. It is, as one of the M’s pointed out in grammar that is fascinating “But that’s as bad faith an argument as exists.” Don’t bite hooks.
Don’t bite hooks.
i am officially out of the hook biting biz for the day.
Don’t bite hooks.
i am officially out of the hook biting biz for the day.
McKinney’s new insult being “the Woke Left”, I feel no compunction about disparaging The Somnolent Center.
Sullivan takes offense on behalf of The Somnolent Center at placards like “White Silence = Violence” as if he never heard Thomas More’s dictum that “In law, silence implies consent”.
The Somnolent Center is that faction which shares Sullivan’s perplexity:
Those “social, economic, and cultural factors” can’t be due to race, you see, because The Somnolent Center knows that nothing in America is ever about race. Partly right, of course: it’s blackness specifically, not race in general, that’s at issue right now.
The Somnolent Center needs to be asked over and over: are the “social, economic, and cultural factors” that account for the disparity between black Americans and other Americans due to racism or race?
Incidentally, while Sullivan was typing
did the phrase “shithole countries” even cross his mind?
–TP
McKinney’s new insult being “the Woke Left”, I feel no compunction about disparaging The Somnolent Center.
Sullivan takes offense on behalf of The Somnolent Center at placards like “White Silence = Violence” as if he never heard Thomas More’s dictum that “In law, silence implies consent”.
The Somnolent Center is that faction which shares Sullivan’s perplexity:
Those “social, economic, and cultural factors” can’t be due to race, you see, because The Somnolent Center knows that nothing in America is ever about race. Partly right, of course: it’s blackness specifically, not race in general, that’s at issue right now.
The Somnolent Center needs to be asked over and over: are the “social, economic, and cultural factors” that account for the disparity between black Americans and other Americans due to racism or race?
Incidentally, while Sullivan was typing
did the phrase “shithole countries” even cross his mind?
–TP
The left fancies itself as the soul of tolerance. BS on that too.
Well, no. I can only speak for myself. I will leave “speaking for the Left” to you, since that appears to be the only ploy in your rhetorical toolbox. Here’s the deal:
I have no tolerance for racism.
I have no tolerance for authoritarianism.
I have no tolerance for fascism.
I have no tolerance for smug, selfish, entitled rich people.
I have no tolerance for denial of the impending disaster that is global warming.
I have no tolerance for injustice.
For the most part, I detest Republicans because they support harmful idiotic and stupid public policies.
Not very tolerant of me, I’ll admit. That’s the way the cookie crumbles.
The left fancies itself as the soul of tolerance. BS on that too.
Well, no. I can only speak for myself. I will leave “speaking for the Left” to you, since that appears to be the only ploy in your rhetorical toolbox. Here’s the deal:
I have no tolerance for racism.
I have no tolerance for authoritarianism.
I have no tolerance for fascism.
I have no tolerance for smug, selfish, entitled rich people.
I have no tolerance for denial of the impending disaster that is global warming.
I have no tolerance for injustice.
For the most part, I detest Republicans because they support harmful idiotic and stupid public policies.
Not very tolerant of me, I’ll admit. That’s the way the cookie crumbles.
Footnote: Studies of voters in the center and so-named “swing voters” tend to point out that they tend to wait until the last moment, rely heavily on anecdotal evidence from others in their circle and on their own prior opinion with little proactive research, and jump in late on one side or the other only once they are sure of what those around them have already decided. In the interim they pride themselves on their resolute neutrality and refusal to be swayed by the partisans on either side.
Footnote: Studies of voters in the center and so-named “swing voters” tend to point out that they tend to wait until the last moment, rely heavily on anecdotal evidence from others in their circle and on their own prior opinion with little proactive research, and jump in late on one side or the other only once they are sure of what those around them have already decided. In the interim they pride themselves on their resolute neutrality and refusal to be swayed by the partisans on either side.
I partly agree with Sullivan and partly disagree. IMO, Americans are always intolerant and having a moral panic about something and if conservatives had their way, they’d be more than happy dictating the terms of who is a heretic. Every part of the spectrum does this and yes, the left is very intolerant right now. I see this in left vs left arguments. And the right is being its usual hypocritical self. Dreher is kind of a benchmark. He is in blog posting heaven, putting out a few pieces a day about the modern day Bolsheviks. For a Christian I have to say he has a gift ( though not from God) of presenting Christianity as the whiniest, most self- pitting narcissistic religion imaginable. So far as one could tell from reading his blog, Christians only exist to be persecuted by the Woke because Christians don’t want to bake cakes for gay weddings. I couldn’t tell you one positive thing about Christianity from reading his blog. Right now, though, he has turned away from the vast gay menace and now sees the Woke iconoclasts as the danger to Western Civ, along with the black gay conservative Trump supporter who posted that stupid video about the road rage incident.
Getting back to the threat to Westen Civ, I’m not sure how far thie Woke menace goes in everyday life. I see no trace of it in my own ( albeit conducted mostly via Zoom meetings.)
I find the statue stuff and the posturing tiresome— this is how I felt about DiAngelo. The Confederate statues should come down, but it would be nice if the country was locked in debate about how the police should be reformed or defunded or abolished or whatever, and we could also be talking about how so many essential workers ( many of them black or brown) are poorly paid and have few benefits and what should be done about that. The pandemic and police violence at protests have revealed to everyone just what a crappy unjust society we have and that seems more important than which statues should be toppled and whether we should vote on it first.
But everything turns into symbolic culture war stuff. So we argue about statues and flag burning and so on. This kind of argument is fodder for culture war idiots like Dreher and Tucker and I wish the left would stop fighting these morons on that turf. I actually do find Dreher interesting in his calmer more reflective moments ( they happen several times a year) but his chief niche in life is whipping up conservative hysteria about bakeries and statues and anything he can cram into his next book about how Christians are going to be persecuted. I don’t watch Fox, but gather it is much the same. If the Right couldn’t whip up anger over these fracking stupid issues they might have to answer questions about why so many people have to live paycheck to paycheck. Dreher has nothing to say about anything that would actually make America a better place to live.
I partly agree with Sullivan and partly disagree. IMO, Americans are always intolerant and having a moral panic about something and if conservatives had their way, they’d be more than happy dictating the terms of who is a heretic. Every part of the spectrum does this and yes, the left is very intolerant right now. I see this in left vs left arguments. And the right is being its usual hypocritical self. Dreher is kind of a benchmark. He is in blog posting heaven, putting out a few pieces a day about the modern day Bolsheviks. For a Christian I have to say he has a gift ( though not from God) of presenting Christianity as the whiniest, most self- pitting narcissistic religion imaginable. So far as one could tell from reading his blog, Christians only exist to be persecuted by the Woke because Christians don’t want to bake cakes for gay weddings. I couldn’t tell you one positive thing about Christianity from reading his blog. Right now, though, he has turned away from the vast gay menace and now sees the Woke iconoclasts as the danger to Western Civ, along with the black gay conservative Trump supporter who posted that stupid video about the road rage incident.
Getting back to the threat to Westen Civ, I’m not sure how far thie Woke menace goes in everyday life. I see no trace of it in my own ( albeit conducted mostly via Zoom meetings.)
I find the statue stuff and the posturing tiresome— this is how I felt about DiAngelo. The Confederate statues should come down, but it would be nice if the country was locked in debate about how the police should be reformed or defunded or abolished or whatever, and we could also be talking about how so many essential workers ( many of them black or brown) are poorly paid and have few benefits and what should be done about that. The pandemic and police violence at protests have revealed to everyone just what a crappy unjust society we have and that seems more important than which statues should be toppled and whether we should vote on it first.
But everything turns into symbolic culture war stuff. So we argue about statues and flag burning and so on. This kind of argument is fodder for culture war idiots like Dreher and Tucker and I wish the left would stop fighting these morons on that turf. I actually do find Dreher interesting in his calmer more reflective moments ( they happen several times a year) but his chief niche in life is whipping up conservative hysteria about bakeries and statues and anything he can cram into his next book about how Christians are going to be persecuted. I don’t watch Fox, but gather it is much the same. If the Right couldn’t whip up anger over these fracking stupid issues they might have to answer questions about why so many people have to live paycheck to paycheck. Dreher has nothing to say about anything that would actually make America a better place to live.
what i’ve read of Dreher and Sullivan is that they are both quick to work themselves into breathless panic over something the left in his imagination is doing. and suddenly the entirety of western civilization is in peril, and hands must be wrung, and brave men (always men) must Stand And Fight like Churchill! S.T.F.U.
it’s why neither of them are even slightly interesting to me.
what i’ve read of Dreher and Sullivan is that they are both quick to work themselves into breathless panic over something the left in his imagination is doing. and suddenly the entirety of western civilization is in peril, and hands must be wrung, and brave men (always men) must Stand And Fight like Churchill! S.T.F.U.
it’s why neither of them are even slightly interesting to me.
my kingdom for editable comments.
my kingdom for editable comments.
Donald,
I’m with cleek. Nobody in their right mind (you excepted of course!) should give Dreher or Sullivan the time of day.
And sure, it would be nice to get everybody on board to “tackle” the issues and not be distracted by that “other stuff”.
However, politics is a group undertaking. It is messy and tends to get overheated way too often. As the wag once said, it ain’t bean bag. It’s fighting over the loot.
As to the culture wars, it is important to consider that THE LEFT (you know, the great unwashed Mckinnyite US) is winning them. In the current scheme of things, I find this to be of some importance. After all, is it not important to fight your battles on favorable terrain? I read that somewhere.
Take care. Thanks.
Donald,
I’m with cleek. Nobody in their right mind (you excepted of course!) should give Dreher or Sullivan the time of day.
And sure, it would be nice to get everybody on board to “tackle” the issues and not be distracted by that “other stuff”.
However, politics is a group undertaking. It is messy and tends to get overheated way too often. As the wag once said, it ain’t bean bag. It’s fighting over the loot.
As to the culture wars, it is important to consider that THE LEFT (you know, the great unwashed Mckinnyite US) is winning them. In the current scheme of things, I find this to be of some importance. After all, is it not important to fight your battles on favorable terrain? I read that somewhere.
Take care. Thanks.
Cause I don’t think there is an interesting discussion to be had while Scooby doo and Scrappy doo are on the case, I’ll turn to something else
I actually do find Dreher interesting in his calmer more reflective moments
Please don’t take this as an attack, but why? It reminds me of my feelings about the show Glee, where they would come to some understanding at the end of the episode and the next episode would change back into their bitchy selves. That sort of return to the norm (for Dreher, that crunchy con sensibility, for Sullivan, that I’m gay but I’m a conservative!) is fine for things that don’t matter, but it really gets tiresome for a pundits who are supposedly evolving.
This is not to dismiss your recommendations, when you link to a Daniel Larison piece, I do follow it, but with Dreher (like Sullivan), I really feel myself getting stupider every second I have to untangle whatever knot they have tied themselves into.
Cause I don’t think there is an interesting discussion to be had while Scooby doo and Scrappy doo are on the case, I’ll turn to something else
I actually do find Dreher interesting in his calmer more reflective moments
Please don’t take this as an attack, but why? It reminds me of my feelings about the show Glee, where they would come to some understanding at the end of the episode and the next episode would change back into their bitchy selves. That sort of return to the norm (for Dreher, that crunchy con sensibility, for Sullivan, that I’m gay but I’m a conservative!) is fine for things that don’t matter, but it really gets tiresome for a pundits who are supposedly evolving.
This is not to dismiss your recommendations, when you link to a Daniel Larison piece, I do follow it, but with Dreher (like Sullivan), I really feel myself getting stupider every second I have to untangle whatever knot they have tied themselves into.
As to the culture wars, it is important to consider that THE LEFT (you know, the great unwashed Mckinnyite US) is winning them.
Actually, sorry to break it to you, but you aren’t winning especially. What is happening is that the reactionary right is losing. Which isn’t quite the same thing — said reactionaries’ binary view of the situation notwithstanding.
As to the culture wars, it is important to consider that THE LEFT (you know, the great unwashed Mckinnyite US) is winning them.
Actually, sorry to break it to you, but you aren’t winning especially. What is happening is that the reactionary right is losing. Which isn’t quite the same thing — said reactionaries’ binary view of the situation notwithstanding.
I agree with some of what Sullivan says:
Actually I agree with most of what Sullivan says. The problem is that he puts the most important part – which I just quoted – in about the twelfth paragraph. Because his priority is to pretend that the left in the USA today has the same sort of power as the Communist government in Czechoslovakia in 1978. Which is ridiculous – the authoritarian who matters in the USA is Trump (whom, to be fair, Sullivan despises).
It’s the same with our conservative friends wringing their hands over the destruction of Confederate statues. To them, the problem is that statues are coming down without due legal authority. To me, it’s that African-Americans, and everyone else, have been obliged to put up with these monuments to racism for a hundred years. No, I don’t approve of lawlessness. But lawlessness in the face of such an insult: I can live with it.
I refer our friends to G.K.Chesterton’s paradox of the fence, the essence of conservative thought:
We know perfectly well what the Confederate statues are for – to celebrate the rebirth of white supremacy in the South. Now let us destroy them.
I agree with some of what Sullivan says:
Actually I agree with most of what Sullivan says. The problem is that he puts the most important part – which I just quoted – in about the twelfth paragraph. Because his priority is to pretend that the left in the USA today has the same sort of power as the Communist government in Czechoslovakia in 1978. Which is ridiculous – the authoritarian who matters in the USA is Trump (whom, to be fair, Sullivan despises).
It’s the same with our conservative friends wringing their hands over the destruction of Confederate statues. To them, the problem is that statues are coming down without due legal authority. To me, it’s that African-Americans, and everyone else, have been obliged to put up with these monuments to racism for a hundred years. No, I don’t approve of lawlessness. But lawlessness in the face of such an insult: I can live with it.
I refer our friends to G.K.Chesterton’s paradox of the fence, the essence of conservative thought:
We know perfectly well what the Confederate statues are for – to celebrate the rebirth of white supremacy in the South. Now let us destroy them.
Sullivan’s shtick (and it is a shtick, be very clear about that) is to be the heretic. Just giving you his honest feelings. All day, every day.
When Coates ripped The New Republic
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/the-new-republic-an-appreciation/383561/
Sullivan came in for some indirect fire (though Coates attested to Sullivan’s mentorship) and Sullivan came to the magazine’s defense by distorting what Coates had said
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/12/22/excuse-me-mr-coates/
Coates clearly got under Sullivan’s skin cause he has a follow up (that quotes Freddie DeBoer as a representative of the Left, which really brings Sully’s powers of discernment into question)
What is astonishing to me is the way Sullivan ends the piece I made you boy, I can break you seems to be the underlying message.
Coates responded on twitter with this
https://gawker.com/ta-nehisi-coates-responds-its-a-privilege-for-me-to-b-1674748746
What’s he to do? He has to acknowledge that Sullivan mentored him, but if he points out the shifting sand that Sully’s analysis is built on, well, out the window.
This other exchange, helpfully excerpted by Delong, shows how Sullivan’s civility and comity are really only skin deep.
https://www.bradford-delong.com/2018/05/2018-05-28-filed-sullivan-coates-farrell-make-live-on-2018-11-23.html
Sullivan’s shtick (and it is a shtick, be very clear about that) is to be the heretic. Just giving you his honest feelings. All day, every day.
When Coates ripped The New Republic
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/the-new-republic-an-appreciation/383561/
Sullivan came in for some indirect fire (though Coates attested to Sullivan’s mentorship) and Sullivan came to the magazine’s defense by distorting what Coates had said
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/12/22/excuse-me-mr-coates/
Coates clearly got under Sullivan’s skin cause he has a follow up (that quotes Freddie DeBoer as a representative of the Left, which really brings Sully’s powers of discernment into question)
What is astonishing to me is the way Sullivan ends the piece I made you boy, I can break you seems to be the underlying message.
Coates responded on twitter with this
https://gawker.com/ta-nehisi-coates-responds-its-a-privilege-for-me-to-b-1674748746
What’s he to do? He has to acknowledge that Sullivan mentored him, but if he points out the shifting sand that Sully’s analysis is built on, well, out the window.
This other exchange, helpfully excerpted by Delong, shows how Sullivan’s civility and comity are really only skin deep.
https://www.bradford-delong.com/2018/05/2018-05-28-filed-sullivan-coates-farrell-make-live-on-2018-11-23.html
LJ—
Dreher occasionally shows some real capacity for self reflection, more than most people in any part of the political spectrum. I wish more of the liberals who supported the Iraq War could do the same.
I read him because I want to stay out of bubbles. When he is calm I can read him and understand to some degree where he is coming from. No part of the political spectrum has a monopoly on blind spots or idiocy and if you want to hear what the left looks like at its worst, it pays to read some conservatives sometimes. I’m in no danger of becoming a rightwinger, but I want to know what some of them think from their own lips.
Besides, we are all stuck with each other.
Larison is the only regular columnist at TAC who is virtually always sensible from my POV. Of course he sticks almost exclusively to foreign policy. Reading him for me is just reading what I think, only better expressed, so that doesn’t count as going outside my bubble.
LJ—
Dreher occasionally shows some real capacity for self reflection, more than most people in any part of the political spectrum. I wish more of the liberals who supported the Iraq War could do the same.
I read him because I want to stay out of bubbles. When he is calm I can read him and understand to some degree where he is coming from. No part of the political spectrum has a monopoly on blind spots or idiocy and if you want to hear what the left looks like at its worst, it pays to read some conservatives sometimes. I’m in no danger of becoming a rightwinger, but I want to know what some of them think from their own lips.
Besides, we are all stuck with each other.
Larison is the only regular columnist at TAC who is virtually always sensible from my POV. Of course he sticks almost exclusively to foreign policy. Reading him for me is just reading what I think, only better expressed, so that doesn’t count as going outside my bubble.
Actually, sorry to break it to you, but you aren’t winning especially. What is happening is that the reactionary right is losing.
Winning and losing are probably the wrong frame. The right (if you want to call it reactionary, fine, though there are a lot of silent travellers who certainly seem to enable them) are getting crowded out. The polls suggest that more people feel favorably to BLM and the protests. A larger chunk of Republicans don’t, and are going to resist. Just like a lot of Republicans seem to think that wearing a disposable mask is a massive affront to their freedom. At that point, what’s the point of arguing?
A little Faulkner:
I give it to you not that you may remember time, but that you might forget it now and then for a moment and not spend all your breath trying to conquer it. Because no battle is ever won he said. They are not even fought. The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools.
Of course, Quentin, who gets the watch from his father, ends up killing himself, but only after he makes sure to clean his vest and make himself presentable. Which seems to me a lot like worrying ourselves into a lather about whether statues stay up or down.
Actually, sorry to break it to you, but you aren’t winning especially. What is happening is that the reactionary right is losing.
Winning and losing are probably the wrong frame. The right (if you want to call it reactionary, fine, though there are a lot of silent travellers who certainly seem to enable them) are getting crowded out. The polls suggest that more people feel favorably to BLM and the protests. A larger chunk of Republicans don’t, and are going to resist. Just like a lot of Republicans seem to think that wearing a disposable mask is a massive affront to their freedom. At that point, what’s the point of arguing?
A little Faulkner:
I give it to you not that you may remember time, but that you might forget it now and then for a moment and not spend all your breath trying to conquer it. Because no battle is ever won he said. They are not even fought. The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools.
Of course, Quentin, who gets the watch from his father, ends up killing himself, but only after he makes sure to clean his vest and make himself presentable. Which seems to me a lot like worrying ourselves into a lather about whether statues stay up or down.
This is what I found wrong about DiAngelo’s approach but better expressed
https://theweek.com/articles/921623/limits-white-fragilitys-antiracism?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Basically, too much emphasis on feelings ( it very much smacked of a religious revival approach where people are told what damnable sinners they are) and not much about policy.
The statue thing is similar. I want to see the Confederates removed, but don’t think an extended debate about which American historical figures should be cancelled is very useful. It gets people’s emotions all riled up and at the end of the day we still have massive inequality and police forces who act like occupying armies.
This is what I found wrong about DiAngelo’s approach but better expressed
https://theweek.com/articles/921623/limits-white-fragilitys-antiracism?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Basically, too much emphasis on feelings ( it very much smacked of a religious revival approach where people are told what damnable sinners they are) and not much about policy.
The statue thing is similar. I want to see the Confederates removed, but don’t think an extended debate about which American historical figures should be cancelled is very useful. It gets people’s emotions all riled up and at the end of the day we still have massive inequality and police forces who act like occupying armies.
Now if am wrong about the usefulness of the statue debate, I will be happy. But I suspect that the more time is spent on that the less time will be spent on more substantive issues. It’s like arguing about flag burning during an antiwar protest. If the flag burning leads to the ending of the war, great. I suspect that in the past it was largely a distraction.
I could also be partly right and partly wrong. But I am starting to bore myself.
Now if am wrong about the usefulness of the statue debate, I will be happy. But I suspect that the more time is spent on that the less time will be spent on more substantive issues. It’s like arguing about flag burning during an antiwar protest. If the flag burning leads to the ending of the war, great. I suspect that in the past it was largely a distraction.
I could also be partly right and partly wrong. But I am starting to bore myself.
No, I don’t approve of lawlessness. But lawlessness in the face of such an insult: I can live with it.
Pro Bono wrote something I’ve been unable to get out of my head and into words, and without all that many words to boot.
No, I don’t approve of lawlessness. But lawlessness in the face of such an insult: I can live with it.
Pro Bono wrote something I’ve been unable to get out of my head and into words, and without all that many words to boot.
brave men (always men) must Stand And Fight like Churchill!
more accurately, brave men *other than me* must stand and fight etc.
Back in the run-up to the Iraq War, Sullivan made a reply to a criticism that someone who was actually active military made about the foreign policy we were about to embark on.
You’re a soldier! said Sullivan. It’s not your place to offer an opinion, your place is to go and do what your civilian masters tell you to do.
Sullivan is a fucking entitled Tory twit. We fought a revolution to be rid of dudes like that. I am, really, not interested in a damned thing the man has to say.
The fact that Larison and Dreher are, on their best days, not insane is not a rousing endorsement. In my opinion. I have better things to read.
Color me close-minded. I can live with it. I only have a couple of decades left if I’m lucky, I’d rather spend my remaining days reading something more edifying.
Look, I’ll make a blanket generalization, based on nothing more than whatever I can pull out of my behind:
Black people in the United States are tired of being treated like second-class citizens.
The solution to that is to stop treating them like second-class citizens.
The rest is commentary at best, and more likely noise.
It’s been 400 freaking years, y’all. How much patience is a person supposed to have?
brave men (always men) must Stand And Fight like Churchill!
more accurately, brave men *other than me* must stand and fight etc.
Back in the run-up to the Iraq War, Sullivan made a reply to a criticism that someone who was actually active military made about the foreign policy we were about to embark on.
You’re a soldier! said Sullivan. It’s not your place to offer an opinion, your place is to go and do what your civilian masters tell you to do.
Sullivan is a fucking entitled Tory twit. We fought a revolution to be rid of dudes like that. I am, really, not interested in a damned thing the man has to say.
The fact that Larison and Dreher are, on their best days, not insane is not a rousing endorsement. In my opinion. I have better things to read.
Color me close-minded. I can live with it. I only have a couple of decades left if I’m lucky, I’d rather spend my remaining days reading something more edifying.
Look, I’ll make a blanket generalization, based on nothing more than whatever I can pull out of my behind:
Black people in the United States are tired of being treated like second-class citizens.
The solution to that is to stop treating them like second-class citizens.
The rest is commentary at best, and more likely noise.
It’s been 400 freaking years, y’all. How much patience is a person supposed to have?
Donald – I think that something like DiAngelo’s approach is useful for a segment on the left who needs to be interrupted and told to actually listen to what PoC are saying about their experiences and their wishes (in all the attendant variety and contradictions for a non-monolithic group), and I think that the people in question need to hear it from someone other than a PoC, and that PoC need to be freed from their position of always being a representative for all PoC.
Which, when tied to something like the statue issue probably amounts to the US being badly in need of a Truth and Reconciliation process with many of the groups that have been wronged, historically, and that continue to be affected by the effects of that historical wrong. There needs to be some sort of referendum on public memorials and their role in society and a consideration of what to do with the memorials that do not, broadly speaking, serve the public. We cannot allow past majorities to continue to bully and intimidate current communities through the legacy of their trappings of power.
And to the extent that a Truth and Reconciliation process can make a list of concrete action items to aid in that acknowledgment of truth and steps for reconciliation, it would be productive.
What we have instead, though, is just another postponement of any action because the majority of those who have been wronged are being collectively punished for the actions of a minority of that minority, and of others assumed (accurately or not) to be acting in concert with them. Which is straight up bullshit, but a convenient bit of bullshit for anyone who finds change inconvenient or personally counterproductive or ideologically unpalatable.
Donald – I think that something like DiAngelo’s approach is useful for a segment on the left who needs to be interrupted and told to actually listen to what PoC are saying about their experiences and their wishes (in all the attendant variety and contradictions for a non-monolithic group), and I think that the people in question need to hear it from someone other than a PoC, and that PoC need to be freed from their position of always being a representative for all PoC.
Which, when tied to something like the statue issue probably amounts to the US being badly in need of a Truth and Reconciliation process with many of the groups that have been wronged, historically, and that continue to be affected by the effects of that historical wrong. There needs to be some sort of referendum on public memorials and their role in society and a consideration of what to do with the memorials that do not, broadly speaking, serve the public. We cannot allow past majorities to continue to bully and intimidate current communities through the legacy of their trappings of power.
And to the extent that a Truth and Reconciliation process can make a list of concrete action items to aid in that acknowledgment of truth and steps for reconciliation, it would be productive.
What we have instead, though, is just another postponement of any action because the majority of those who have been wronged are being collectively punished for the actions of a minority of that minority, and of others assumed (accurately or not) to be acting in concert with them. Which is straight up bullshit, but a convenient bit of bullshit for anyone who finds change inconvenient or personally counterproductive or ideologically unpalatable.
What we have instead, though, is just another postponement of any action because the majority of those who have been wronged are being collectively punished for the actions of a minority of that minority, and of others assumed (accurately or not) to be acting in concert with them. Which is straight up bullshit, but a convenient bit of bullshit for anyone who finds change inconvenient or personally counterproductive or ideologically unpalatable.
I agree with your whole comment, nous, except that the postponement of action isn’t because of the collective punishment (which is happening, and which you’ve described accurately). It’s because of the political situation (exacerbated by Covid – which is also being used as a weapon by the right-wing). The Republican control of the White House and the Senate and the courts: that is interfering with change.
My district has very good news: Democrats have nominated Cameron Webb for Congress, against a nut-case religious right-wing extremist: the Republicans primaried Trump sycophant Denver Riggleman (who committed the sin of officiating a gay marriage).
If you have extra cash, this is something to do with it.
But, also, this is what you do when you are sorry that you appeared in black-face.
So, yeah. There are things we can all do. I’m so proud of Virginia. Let’s be honest: the good old boys are following the tide. But let’s support them in doing that.
What we have instead, though, is just another postponement of any action because the majority of those who have been wronged are being collectively punished for the actions of a minority of that minority, and of others assumed (accurately or not) to be acting in concert with them. Which is straight up bullshit, but a convenient bit of bullshit for anyone who finds change inconvenient or personally counterproductive or ideologically unpalatable.
I agree with your whole comment, nous, except that the postponement of action isn’t because of the collective punishment (which is happening, and which you’ve described accurately). It’s because of the political situation (exacerbated by Covid – which is also being used as a weapon by the right-wing). The Republican control of the White House and the Senate and the courts: that is interfering with change.
My district has very good news: Democrats have nominated Cameron Webb for Congress, against a nut-case religious right-wing extremist: the Republicans primaried Trump sycophant Denver Riggleman (who committed the sin of officiating a gay marriage).
If you have extra cash, this is something to do with it.
But, also, this is what you do when you are sorry that you appeared in black-face.
So, yeah. There are things we can all do. I’m so proud of Virginia. Let’s be honest: the good old boys are following the tide. But let’s support them in doing that.
Thanks Donald for the link. Since I posted DiAngelo, I guess I should answer it, in the time honored ‘fisking’ format (what ever happened to Robert Fisk? Wikipedia says he is still alive, but 84 is getting up there) But me taking issue with this is simply that, looking at this writing and identifying why I think it is wrong.
However, while the type of anti-racism advocated by DiAngelo might provide some useful benefits, it is also enervating, distracting, and can even perpetuate its own kind of racial prejudice.
Not a complaint, but for me ‘enervating’ is a positive adjective. I bring this up because maybe the disjunction starts here.
White Fragility tells many stories of the author’s corporate seminars (for which DiAngelo is undoubtedly well-paid; diversity consulting is reportedly a multi-billion dollar industry)
If she worked for peanuts, he’d be able to take this seriously? Way to ad hominem!
But seriously, diversity workshops are a huge industry because some feel there is a huge need. Maybe they are just getting blown by the winds of whatever is in, but the evidence of the protests would suggest that isn’t really the case.
DiAngelo concludes that all white people, including herself, are unalterably racist.
errr, no she doesn’t. She argues that we are socialized to be racist because of the structure of society. That seemingly short leap is, imo, the source of most of the gap.
Racism can only be contained, never defeated.
If you think that racism is part of human nature, and othering is a fundamental aspect of the human condition, then I’m not sure why this statement seems false. Note that there is this oscillation between it’s not racism and well, blacks are racist too in a lot of these debates. Why can’t I use the n word, rappers use it all the time sort of things.
For one thing, there is a darker side to this kind of corporate training.
Again, anytime you have to legislate or mandate change, there is always a darker side. There are always people who take advantage of the rules.
In her view all white people without exception are racist, even — indeed, especially — progressive ones. “I believe that white progressives cause the most daily damage to people of color,” she writes. Any denial of this is taken as evidence of white fragility and prejudice. It may be true that all white Americans have at least some race prejudice given the gruesome history of this country, but this is blatantly circular reasoning, and raises the question of just what the point of all this self-flagellation is.
If we think of the inverse, any evidence of non-racist behavior is then taken as proof that racism doesn’t exist, or at least has been slain. But somehow, it keeps coming back. Recall that the Watts riots in 1964 when police arrested a black driver who was driving under the influence and and the police ended up arresting the driver and an acquaintance of the driver and the driver’s mother.
https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-rena-price-20130623-story.html
Obviously, we could parse the incident to figure out what went down, but in light of what we are seeing on phone videos, is it any surprise that this might have been a problem? And to solve the problem, white people can’t say well, I’m only racist 5% of the time. It’s ironic, but that single drop of blood reasoning continues to infect us.
And given the ‘gruesome history’ of this country, it is certainly more than a drop.
This not only smacks more than a little of the “Magical Negro” stereotype, but also puts up a high barrier between actual communication and learning between races. One end goal of an anti-racist society, presumably, is for people of all races to be able to communicate with each other as individuals. Cross-racial friendship can surely help in this effort — by coming to know one’s Black fellow citizens, whites might discover they are regular American human beings like themselves, and indeed that they have a great deal in common. Whites considering their own unconscious biases might help with this, but being taught to view every interaction with a person of color through a racial lens will make it harder, however progressive that lens might be.
So DiAngelo is not allowed to present the evidence she has had from other AAs, because that casts them as “the only reliable guides to whether whites have atoned sufficiently”. Atonement only comes when the sinner is forgiven. I don’t think that the black population of America has in any way forgiven the white population. So they _are_ the only guides. And it is that giving up of white autonomy that is what seems to be at the root of white fragility.
More importantly still, DiAngelo has basically nothing to say about what might be done in policy terms about racism. She talks a great deal about “systemic” discrimination, but very little about actual systems — her discussion of affirmative action, for instance, is not about how it might be expanded, but how white people get mad about it.
Really? Because DiAngelo doesn’t talk about policy, ergo she’s not being honest. Yet with the exception of the unregenerate, anyone on this blog could identify a ton of policies that have been denied, undercut, mismanaged. DiAngelo is trying to explain why that is a constant.
Moreover, Blacks were also much more concentrated in poverty — 36.6 percent of them lived in the poorest tracts, while the same was true of just 9.6 percent of whites. This fits with other evidence suggesting that an all-out attack on poverty would go some distance towards cutting police violence and mass incarceration, because as we have seen over the past weeks, the main activity of American police and prisons is not solving crime, but keeping a boot on the neck of the disproportionately Black and brown American lower class.
Quelle surprise! Was it really something that could only be seen over the past few weeks? And was that last sentence a knowing wink to the audience or just lazy writing? Whatever it was, it suggests a total self^absorbtion.
Racism must be eradicated, partly because it forestalls the kind of multi-racial, working-class political coalition that could make this country a better place to live for everyone. But it seems you won’t learn that at a corporate diversity seminar.
Nor will you find the writer admitting to any racism. So it’s obviously on everyone else to fix.
Going back thru Cooper’s other writings after writing this also gives us a fix on where Cooper is coming from and I don’t like it much and I hope you don’t either. Exhibit one.
https://theweek.com/articles/918849/what-about-police-violence-against-white-people
Consider this. George Floyd was killed on May 25th. Ryan Cooper publishes this on June 9th. After watching a black man strangled for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, he thinks ‘wow, that could have been a white person minding his own business, I need to defend white people from having a cop put their knee on the back of their neck for 8+ minutes.’
Obviously, my distaste for this argument might seem like I’m railing on you, and I apologize for that. But this article and Ryan Cooper do nothing for me but underline the validity of DiAngelo’s thesis.
Thanks Donald for the link. Since I posted DiAngelo, I guess I should answer it, in the time honored ‘fisking’ format (what ever happened to Robert Fisk? Wikipedia says he is still alive, but 84 is getting up there) But me taking issue with this is simply that, looking at this writing and identifying why I think it is wrong.
However, while the type of anti-racism advocated by DiAngelo might provide some useful benefits, it is also enervating, distracting, and can even perpetuate its own kind of racial prejudice.
Not a complaint, but for me ‘enervating’ is a positive adjective. I bring this up because maybe the disjunction starts here.
White Fragility tells many stories of the author’s corporate seminars (for which DiAngelo is undoubtedly well-paid; diversity consulting is reportedly a multi-billion dollar industry)
If she worked for peanuts, he’d be able to take this seriously? Way to ad hominem!
But seriously, diversity workshops are a huge industry because some feel there is a huge need. Maybe they are just getting blown by the winds of whatever is in, but the evidence of the protests would suggest that isn’t really the case.
DiAngelo concludes that all white people, including herself, are unalterably racist.
errr, no she doesn’t. She argues that we are socialized to be racist because of the structure of society. That seemingly short leap is, imo, the source of most of the gap.
Racism can only be contained, never defeated.
If you think that racism is part of human nature, and othering is a fundamental aspect of the human condition, then I’m not sure why this statement seems false. Note that there is this oscillation between it’s not racism and well, blacks are racist too in a lot of these debates. Why can’t I use the n word, rappers use it all the time sort of things.
For one thing, there is a darker side to this kind of corporate training.
Again, anytime you have to legislate or mandate change, there is always a darker side. There are always people who take advantage of the rules.
In her view all white people without exception are racist, even — indeed, especially — progressive ones. “I believe that white progressives cause the most daily damage to people of color,” she writes. Any denial of this is taken as evidence of white fragility and prejudice. It may be true that all white Americans have at least some race prejudice given the gruesome history of this country, but this is blatantly circular reasoning, and raises the question of just what the point of all this self-flagellation is.
If we think of the inverse, any evidence of non-racist behavior is then taken as proof that racism doesn’t exist, or at least has been slain. But somehow, it keeps coming back. Recall that the Watts riots in 1964 when police arrested a black driver who was driving under the influence and and the police ended up arresting the driver and an acquaintance of the driver and the driver’s mother.
https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-rena-price-20130623-story.html
Obviously, we could parse the incident to figure out what went down, but in light of what we are seeing on phone videos, is it any surprise that this might have been a problem? And to solve the problem, white people can’t say well, I’m only racist 5% of the time. It’s ironic, but that single drop of blood reasoning continues to infect us.
And given the ‘gruesome history’ of this country, it is certainly more than a drop.
This not only smacks more than a little of the “Magical Negro” stereotype, but also puts up a high barrier between actual communication and learning between races. One end goal of an anti-racist society, presumably, is for people of all races to be able to communicate with each other as individuals. Cross-racial friendship can surely help in this effort — by coming to know one’s Black fellow citizens, whites might discover they are regular American human beings like themselves, and indeed that they have a great deal in common. Whites considering their own unconscious biases might help with this, but being taught to view every interaction with a person of color through a racial lens will make it harder, however progressive that lens might be.
So DiAngelo is not allowed to present the evidence she has had from other AAs, because that casts them as “the only reliable guides to whether whites have atoned sufficiently”. Atonement only comes when the sinner is forgiven. I don’t think that the black population of America has in any way forgiven the white population. So they _are_ the only guides. And it is that giving up of white autonomy that is what seems to be at the root of white fragility.
More importantly still, DiAngelo has basically nothing to say about what might be done in policy terms about racism. She talks a great deal about “systemic” discrimination, but very little about actual systems — her discussion of affirmative action, for instance, is not about how it might be expanded, but how white people get mad about it.
Really? Because DiAngelo doesn’t talk about policy, ergo she’s not being honest. Yet with the exception of the unregenerate, anyone on this blog could identify a ton of policies that have been denied, undercut, mismanaged. DiAngelo is trying to explain why that is a constant.
Moreover, Blacks were also much more concentrated in poverty — 36.6 percent of them lived in the poorest tracts, while the same was true of just 9.6 percent of whites. This fits with other evidence suggesting that an all-out attack on poverty would go some distance towards cutting police violence and mass incarceration, because as we have seen over the past weeks, the main activity of American police and prisons is not solving crime, but keeping a boot on the neck of the disproportionately Black and brown American lower class.
Quelle surprise! Was it really something that could only be seen over the past few weeks? And was that last sentence a knowing wink to the audience or just lazy writing? Whatever it was, it suggests a total self^absorbtion.
Racism must be eradicated, partly because it forestalls the kind of multi-racial, working-class political coalition that could make this country a better place to live for everyone. But it seems you won’t learn that at a corporate diversity seminar.
Nor will you find the writer admitting to any racism. So it’s obviously on everyone else to fix.
Going back thru Cooper’s other writings after writing this also gives us a fix on where Cooper is coming from and I don’t like it much and I hope you don’t either. Exhibit one.
https://theweek.com/articles/918849/what-about-police-violence-against-white-people
Consider this. George Floyd was killed on May 25th. Ryan Cooper publishes this on June 9th. After watching a black man strangled for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, he thinks ‘wow, that could have been a white person minding his own business, I need to defend white people from having a cop put their knee on the back of their neck for 8+ minutes.’
Obviously, my distaste for this argument might seem like I’m railing on you, and I apologize for that. But this article and Ryan Cooper do nothing for me but underline the validity of DiAngelo’s thesis.
You’re a soldier! said Sullivan. It’s not your place to offer an opinion, your place is to go and do what your civilian masters tell you to do.
Sullivan is a fucking entitled Tory twit.
What Sullivan (and others, he is hardly alone here) misses is that you don’t lose your rights as a citizen just because you become a soldier. Being a soldier does mean that you have to follow orders. But it doesn’t deprive you of the right (indeed, arguably the responsibility) to make your views known — not during actual combat, but that’s a pretty small part of any soldier’s actual life.
You’re a soldier! said Sullivan. It’s not your place to offer an opinion, your place is to go and do what your civilian masters tell you to do.
Sullivan is a fucking entitled Tory twit.
What Sullivan (and others, he is hardly alone here) misses is that you don’t lose your rights as a citizen just because you become a soldier. Being a soldier does mean that you have to follow orders. But it doesn’t deprive you of the right (indeed, arguably the responsibility) to make your views known — not during actual combat, but that’s a pretty small part of any soldier’s actual life.
diversity workshops are a huge industry because some feel there is a huge need
diversity workshops are exactly what a corporation would do, if its officers believed something needed to be done.
a program, that can be applied uniformly to everyone in the organization, that is based on the Best Expert Guidance, which is more or less incrementally useful in some way that can be measured, and which no small number of people will comply with by going through the motions without significantly altering their personal point of view.
it’s perfectly fine, for what it is, and it’s better than nothing. at a minimum, it signals that obvious racism isn’t acceptable.
which, in some contexts, is a win.
Being a soldier does mean that you have to follow orders.
Not from Andrew freaking Sullivan.
diversity workshops are a huge industry because some feel there is a huge need
diversity workshops are exactly what a corporation would do, if its officers believed something needed to be done.
a program, that can be applied uniformly to everyone in the organization, that is based on the Best Expert Guidance, which is more or less incrementally useful in some way that can be measured, and which no small number of people will comply with by going through the motions without significantly altering their personal point of view.
it’s perfectly fine, for what it is, and it’s better than nothing. at a minimum, it signals that obvious racism isn’t acceptable.
which, in some contexts, is a win.
Being a soldier does mean that you have to follow orders.
Not from Andrew freaking Sullivan.
But this article and Ryan Cooper do nothing for me but underline the validity of DiAngelo’s thesis.
Exactly precisely correct, lj. Well said. Thank you.
But this article and Ryan Cooper do nothing for me but underline the validity of DiAngelo’s thesis.
Exactly precisely correct, lj. Well said. Thank you.
A little birdie tole me that I’m off base on ennervate and it _is_ a negative adjective
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/enervate
I hope that doesn’t undermine my other points…
A little birdie tole me that I’m off base on ennervate and it _is_ a negative adjective
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/enervate
I hope that doesn’t undermine my other points…
Being a soldier does mean that you have to follow orders.
Not from Andrew freaking Sullivan.
I should, for precision, said “follow legal orders.” On balance, I think I would rather follow orders from Andrew Sullivan, for all his faults, than from Donald Trump.
Being a soldier does mean that you have to follow orders.
Not from Andrew freaking Sullivan.
I should, for precision, said “follow legal orders.” On balance, I think I would rather follow orders from Andrew Sullivan, for all his faults, than from Donald Trump.
I should, for precision, said “follow legal orders.” On balance, I think I would rather follow orders from Andrew Sullivan, for all his faults, than from Donald Trump.
Tricky bit, of course, being that the person giving the order will insist that the order being given is legal, thus putting the persons being ordered on the hook and guessing which court will get to them first.
I should, for precision, said “follow legal orders.” On balance, I think I would rather follow orders from Andrew Sullivan, for all his faults, than from Donald Trump.
Tricky bit, of course, being that the person giving the order will insist that the order being given is legal, thus putting the persons being ordered on the hook and guessing which court will get to them first.
Meanwhile, in the land of WTAF???!, bronies have their reckoning, too:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/06/my-little-pony-nazi-4chan-black-lives-matter/613348/
Meanwhile, in the land of WTAF???!, bronies have their reckoning, too:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/06/my-little-pony-nazi-4chan-black-lives-matter/613348/
Sullivan is a fucking entitled Tory twit. We fought a revolution to be rid of dudes like that. I am, really, not interested in a damned thing the man has to say.
To be fair to him, ‘entitled’ is simply inaccurate, as he is a self made made of very modest background indeed. Coming out, and advocating for gay rights, before such a thing was acceptable in conservative circles doesn’t really fit that description, either.
I don’t share his politics, and he said some undeniably foolish and provocative things, but I also remember his being one of the early (and very few at the time) conservative voices speaking out against torture.
I also recall his hosting a remarkably civilised discussion of partial birth abortion on his blog, which is an unusual thing for a US conservative and Catholic..
He is a controversialist, and has made a living from that, but I would not dismiss him as a twit.
Sullivan is a fucking entitled Tory twit. We fought a revolution to be rid of dudes like that. I am, really, not interested in a damned thing the man has to say.
To be fair to him, ‘entitled’ is simply inaccurate, as he is a self made made of very modest background indeed. Coming out, and advocating for gay rights, before such a thing was acceptable in conservative circles doesn’t really fit that description, either.
I don’t share his politics, and he said some undeniably foolish and provocative things, but I also remember his being one of the early (and very few at the time) conservative voices speaking out against torture.
I also recall his hosting a remarkably civilised discussion of partial birth abortion on his blog, which is an unusual thing for a US conservative and Catholic..
He is a controversialist, and has made a living from that, but I would not dismiss him as a twit.
On balance, I think I would rather follow orders from Andrew Sullivan, for all his faults, than from Donald Trump.
It’s hard to think of setting the bar lower…
But this ia an observation that I might not be in a position to make, but nous mentioned earlier that he thought the distrust that AA felt when speaking to whites might be mirrored by the gulf between veterans and civilians. I’ve got no experience, but from my readings, a lot of memoirs etc feel that combat strips away everything but the essentials, with the idea that you find out who you can depend on and who you can’t. I’m reminded of Chris Hedge’s book ‘War is a Force that gives us meaning’ and I think in some ways, it is a parallel version of DiAngelo’s book, warning about the how we think that war is something safely isolated from our every day lives, but it always comes back to haunt us.
On balance, I think I would rather follow orders from Andrew Sullivan, for all his faults, than from Donald Trump.
It’s hard to think of setting the bar lower…
But this ia an observation that I might not be in a position to make, but nous mentioned earlier that he thought the distrust that AA felt when speaking to whites might be mirrored by the gulf between veterans and civilians. I’ve got no experience, but from my readings, a lot of memoirs etc feel that combat strips away everything but the essentials, with the idea that you find out who you can depend on and who you can’t. I’m reminded of Chris Hedge’s book ‘War is a Force that gives us meaning’ and I think in some ways, it is a parallel version of DiAngelo’s book, warning about the how we think that war is something safely isolated from our every day lives, but it always comes back to haunt us.
I don’t think DiAngelo’s approach very useful. I have my own views on why our society stinks— if everyone has to go to my own version of a DiAngelo talk and agree with me before we make progress than we are sunk.
I read the Cooper article you linked.
https://theweek.com/articles/918849/what-about-police-violence-against-white-people
I generally agreed with it and thought your summary of it and his alleged motives were wildly inacccurate.
One more thing. There is almost no one I read that I agree with on everything and I am not talking about minor disagreements either. But because of this it seems like a really bad idea to go into a person’s printed record looking for reasons to dismiss what they said in article X because of something else they said in article Y. I’d be stuck just writing my own articles and reading them.
I don’t think DiAngelo’s approach very useful. I have my own views on why our society stinks— if everyone has to go to my own version of a DiAngelo talk and agree with me before we make progress than we are sunk.
I read the Cooper article you linked.
https://theweek.com/articles/918849/what-about-police-violence-against-white-people
I generally agreed with it and thought your summary of it and his alleged motives were wildly inacccurate.
One more thing. There is almost no one I read that I agree with on everything and I am not talking about minor disagreements either. But because of this it seems like a really bad idea to go into a person’s printed record looking for reasons to dismiss what they said in article X because of something else they said in article Y. I’d be stuck just writing my own articles and reading them.
Nous—
I am fine with a Truth and Reconciliation commission, but don’t expect it to happen. If it did happen,, there are a vast number of issues it should cover, but among other things, state violence both domestic and foreign.
As for statues, I want to see the Confederate names and monuments removed . The others are more complicated in some cases, especially Grant but also Washington. I get worried when a movement starts focusing on non policy things. But if statue removal leads to bigger changes, that’s great.
Nous—
I am fine with a Truth and Reconciliation commission, but don’t expect it to happen. If it did happen,, there are a vast number of issues it should cover, but among other things, state violence both domestic and foreign.
As for statues, I want to see the Confederate names and monuments removed . The others are more complicated in some cases, especially Grant but also Washington. I get worried when a movement starts focusing on non policy things. But if statue removal leads to bigger changes, that’s great.
more bad apples
black people are going to start thinking there’s a problem soon. might want to get in front of that.
more bad apples
black people are going to start thinking there’s a problem soon. might want to get in front of that.
“Consider this. George Floyd was killed on May 25th. Ryan Cooper publishes this on June 9th. After watching a black man strangled for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, he thinks ‘wow, that could have been a white person minding his own business, I need to defend white people from having a cop put their knee on the back of their neck for 8+ minutes.’l
I just read the Cooper piece on police violence and LJ’s summary of it bears essentially no relationship to it whatsoever. I don’t want to Fisk ( a stupid offensive term invented by rightwing warmongers to bash a British journalist who was skeptical of our wars), but read the Cooper piece. He shoots down the rightwing complaints by showing they are false on the facts. He then says that while police violence against whites is less prevalent, it is still bad enough that poor whites should be joining the protests rather than listening to the right. So yes, lj,I agree with Cooper that rightwingers are making bad arguments and I also think that whites should ally with blacks against police brutality rather than listen to those bad rightwing arguments.
What you did was project your own imagined worst case depiction of what Cooper’s motives might have been and this had nothing to do with the actual piece. Anybody can do this to anyone. Which, btw, is why I like to read people firsthand, even people I probably won’t agree with.
“Consider this. George Floyd was killed on May 25th. Ryan Cooper publishes this on June 9th. After watching a black man strangled for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, he thinks ‘wow, that could have been a white person minding his own business, I need to defend white people from having a cop put their knee on the back of their neck for 8+ minutes.’l
I just read the Cooper piece on police violence and LJ’s summary of it bears essentially no relationship to it whatsoever. I don’t want to Fisk ( a stupid offensive term invented by rightwing warmongers to bash a British journalist who was skeptical of our wars), but read the Cooper piece. He shoots down the rightwing complaints by showing they are false on the facts. He then says that while police violence against whites is less prevalent, it is still bad enough that poor whites should be joining the protests rather than listening to the right. So yes, lj,I agree with Cooper that rightwingers are making bad arguments and I also think that whites should ally with blacks against police brutality rather than listen to those bad rightwing arguments.
What you did was project your own imagined worst case depiction of what Cooper’s motives might have been and this had nothing to do with the actual piece. Anybody can do this to anyone. Which, btw, is why I like to read people firsthand, even people I probably won’t agree with.
To be fair to him, ‘entitled’ is simply inaccurate, as he is a self made made of very modest background indeed.
to clarify my own comment – ‘entitlement’, to me, is less a matter of wealth or privilege, and more a matter of one’s own attitude.
He is a controversialist, and has made a living from that, but I would not dismiss him as a twit.
I’ll try to capture my issue with Sullivan.
There’s a tendency in more traditional conservatism toward the idea that some people are meant to rule, and those people should rule, and everyone else should submit to that, and that’s the way it all is meant to be.
Quite often, the marker of who ought to be ruling is wealth and property, or some conspicuous achievement in an area not necessarily relevant to governing.
There are special people, and those special people should be driving the bus, and that is as it ought to be according to the nature of things.
And that can extend out to tendencies like, there are peoples and societies and nations in the world who really ought to be driving the bus, because they are superior in some way.
I think this shows up more in English traditions, but does show up here in the US as well. It’s a not-uncommon conservative tendency, regardless of geography.
I reject that, more or less viscerally. It rubs me the wrong way. It offends my small-d American democratic sensibilities.
IMO Sullivan partakes deeply of that tendency, so he rubs me the wrong way. I think he comes by it naturally, due to his background as a UK guy who made good through his conspicuous achievement as a writer, but I don’t think it’s an attitude that is a good fit for the culture I grew up in and embrace.
I’m basically not that interested in his opinion, because IMO it comes from a place and a perspective that I find noxious.
Plus, I don’t think he’s quite as smart as he thinks he is.
And those are my thoughts about Sullivan.
If you enjoy reading him, I completely encourage you to continue doing so.
To be fair to him, ‘entitled’ is simply inaccurate, as he is a self made made of very modest background indeed.
to clarify my own comment – ‘entitlement’, to me, is less a matter of wealth or privilege, and more a matter of one’s own attitude.
He is a controversialist, and has made a living from that, but I would not dismiss him as a twit.
I’ll try to capture my issue with Sullivan.
There’s a tendency in more traditional conservatism toward the idea that some people are meant to rule, and those people should rule, and everyone else should submit to that, and that’s the way it all is meant to be.
Quite often, the marker of who ought to be ruling is wealth and property, or some conspicuous achievement in an area not necessarily relevant to governing.
There are special people, and those special people should be driving the bus, and that is as it ought to be according to the nature of things.
And that can extend out to tendencies like, there are peoples and societies and nations in the world who really ought to be driving the bus, because they are superior in some way.
I think this shows up more in English traditions, but does show up here in the US as well. It’s a not-uncommon conservative tendency, regardless of geography.
I reject that, more or less viscerally. It rubs me the wrong way. It offends my small-d American democratic sensibilities.
IMO Sullivan partakes deeply of that tendency, so he rubs me the wrong way. I think he comes by it naturally, due to his background as a UK guy who made good through his conspicuous achievement as a writer, but I don’t think it’s an attitude that is a good fit for the culture I grew up in and embrace.
I’m basically not that interested in his opinion, because IMO it comes from a place and a perspective that I find noxious.
Plus, I don’t think he’s quite as smart as he thinks he is.
And those are my thoughts about Sullivan.
If you enjoy reading him, I completely encourage you to continue doing so.
if white people don’t want to give up their privilege voluntarily, they might just find themselves with no choice, very soon.
if white people don’t want to give up their privilege voluntarily, they might just find themselves with no choice, very soon.
I found this interesting (and I hope 538 isn’t seen my analog to CharlesWT’s … um, reliably citing Reason ;^) ).
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-statistics-dont-capture-the-full-extent-of-the-systemic-bias-in-policing/
I found this interesting (and I hope 538 isn’t seen my analog to CharlesWT’s … um, reliably citing Reason ;^) ).
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-statistics-dont-capture-the-full-extent-of-the-systemic-bias-in-policing/
I’d be stuck just writing my own articles and reading them.
Well put.
I’d be stuck just writing my own articles and reading them.
Well put.
I’d be stuck just writing my own articles and reading them.
Well put.
Agreed. And on the subject of cleek’s “more bad apples” at 10.26, the conversations that led to those officers being fired were recorded completely accidentally. One can’t help wondering how many of those sorts of conversations take place among other police officers, who are not accidentally recorded. Or do only libz and BLM wonder that?
I’d be stuck just writing my own articles and reading them.
Well put.
Agreed. And on the subject of cleek’s “more bad apples” at 10.26, the conversations that led to those officers being fired were recorded completely accidentally. One can’t help wondering how many of those sorts of conversations take place among other police officers, who are not accidentally recorded. Or do only libz and BLM wonder that?
One can’t help wondering how many of those sorts of conversations take place among other police officers, who are not accidentally recorded.
from what i’ve read, it’s rampant.
One can’t help wondering how many of those sorts of conversations take place among other police officers, who are not accidentally recorded.
from what i’ve read, it’s rampant.
“collider bias”
good link, hsh.
(for some values of ‘good’)
“collider bias”
good link, hsh.
(for some values of ‘good’)
from what i’ve read, it’s rampant.
I fear this is true. And that the well-intentioned naysayers here are working under a comforting delusion.
from what i’ve read, it’s rampant.
I fear this is true. And that the well-intentioned naysayers here are working under a comforting delusion.
if white people don’t want to give up their privilege voluntarily, they might just find themselves with no choice, very soon.
I’m wondering how generational wealth will play into that.
if white people don’t want to give up their privilege voluntarily, they might just find themselves with no choice, very soon.
I’m wondering how generational wealth will play into that.
I’m wondering how generational wealth will play into that.
most unpleasantly
I’m wondering how generational wealth will play into that.
most unpleasantly
From my reasonably limited, but not nonexistent experience I think this is pretty accurate.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bet-founder-mocks-crowds-statues
From my reasonably limited, but not nonexistent experience I think this is pretty accurate.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bet-founder-mocks-crowds-statues
meaningless?
let’s ask them what they think.
meaningless?
let’s ask them what they think.
Johnson’s point of view seems reasonable to me.
I’m sure that some black people share it, and I’m sure that some white people share it.
I’m sure that some black people don’t share it, and I’m sure that some white people don’t share it.
I know it’s tempting to think about it as “OMG that is totally wrong”, or “OMG that is totally right on”. I’m not sure it’s either.
I personally agree with Johnson’s thought that, of any 1,000 things people can do to remove or at least mitigate race-based inequity, pulling down a statue is probably fairly far down on the list.
But my perspective is as limited as anyone else’s. I’m not sure that “accurate” is even available in this case.
How would anyone know if pulling down a statue was beneficial on net, or not?
Plus, different statues present different issues.
Johnson’s point of view seems reasonable to me.
I’m sure that some black people share it, and I’m sure that some white people share it.
I’m sure that some black people don’t share it, and I’m sure that some white people don’t share it.
I know it’s tempting to think about it as “OMG that is totally wrong”, or “OMG that is totally right on”. I’m not sure it’s either.
I personally agree with Johnson’s thought that, of any 1,000 things people can do to remove or at least mitigate race-based inequity, pulling down a statue is probably fairly far down on the list.
But my perspective is as limited as anyone else’s. I’m not sure that “accurate” is even available in this case.
How would anyone know if pulling down a statue was beneficial on net, or not?
Plus, different statues present different issues.
Statues are the brown M&Ms of change?
https://www.insider.com/van-halen-brown-m-ms-contract-2016-9
It’s a purely symbolic gesture, but it does speak volumes about white people’s willingness to reckon with actual change and take on the racists still in power.
Statues are the brown M&Ms of change?
https://www.insider.com/van-halen-brown-m-ms-contract-2016-9
It’s a purely symbolic gesture, but it does speak volumes about white people’s willingness to reckon with actual change and take on the racists still in power.
Also, too, it’s a benefit analysis rather than a cost/benefit analysis when listing measures according to how much good they’ll do. So, while removing Confederate (and other) statues might not be the most powerful attempt at reaching racial equality, it is none the less low-hanging fruit. Whether doing so constitutes a distraction from or an encouragement of further action is another question.
Also, too, it’s a benefit analysis rather than a cost/benefit analysis when listing measures according to how much good they’ll do. So, while removing Confederate (and other) statues might not be the most powerful attempt at reaching racial equality, it is none the less low-hanging fruit. Whether doing so constitutes a distraction from or an encouragement of further action is another question.
My trenchant analysis of the pulling down of statues:
People are frustrated and angry and are caught up in the moment.
There’s a statue that they think (perhaps correctly, perhaps not) represents the historical aspect of the thing they are frustrated and angry about.
They Want To Do Something, the statue presents itself as Something To Do, so they pull it down.
And once a couple of people do it, it becomes an official Thing To Do. So more people pull more statues down.
If there’s more to it than that, I’m not seeing it.
I think (emphasis on think, this is only my opinion) that most people’s default position on topics like this is “don’t break stuff”. But I also think (with the same caveat) that a lot of people, maybe even most people, understand that sometimes people act out in ways that can seem unreasonable when they get angry enough.
That’s pretty much where I’m at with it, it’s quite possible that I’m just projecting my own opinion on the situation.
But I’m not seeing people pulling down statues as some kind of social Gotterdammerung. I’m sure they’ll knock it off sooner or later, and hopefully we’ll all focus on more consequential issues.
My trenchant analysis of the pulling down of statues:
People are frustrated and angry and are caught up in the moment.
There’s a statue that they think (perhaps correctly, perhaps not) represents the historical aspect of the thing they are frustrated and angry about.
They Want To Do Something, the statue presents itself as Something To Do, so they pull it down.
And once a couple of people do it, it becomes an official Thing To Do. So more people pull more statues down.
If there’s more to it than that, I’m not seeing it.
I think (emphasis on think, this is only my opinion) that most people’s default position on topics like this is “don’t break stuff”. But I also think (with the same caveat) that a lot of people, maybe even most people, understand that sometimes people act out in ways that can seem unreasonable when they get angry enough.
That’s pretty much where I’m at with it, it’s quite possible that I’m just projecting my own opinion on the situation.
But I’m not seeing people pulling down statues as some kind of social Gotterdammerung. I’m sure they’ll knock it off sooner or later, and hopefully we’ll all focus on more consequential issues.
Sullivan…wrs @ 10:59 above.
His “fifth column” remark was a direct and ominous insult to those who opposed the Iraq War. It was also a tell as to the nature of the man. When the rubber hits the road, you still gonna’ say, “Well, he has opinions”. His apology on this matter rings utterly hollow.
He continues to defend the racist Charles Murray on the intellectually bankrupt grounds that he is “only raising questions.”
What’s next, a serious discussion on the pros and cons of nazism?
And the topper is this: Anybody who whines about the “suppression of free speech” from a prominent perch in the media universe is purely bullshitting you.
He should be studiously ignored.
Sullivan…wrs @ 10:59 above.
His “fifth column” remark was a direct and ominous insult to those who opposed the Iraq War. It was also a tell as to the nature of the man. When the rubber hits the road, you still gonna’ say, “Well, he has opinions”. His apology on this matter rings utterly hollow.
He continues to defend the racist Charles Murray on the intellectually bankrupt grounds that he is “only raising questions.”
What’s next, a serious discussion on the pros and cons of nazism?
And the topper is this: Anybody who whines about the “suppression of free speech” from a prominent perch in the media universe is purely bullshitting you.
He should be studiously ignored.
I don’t click on Fox News links, so maybe I was off point, but I was thinking more about officially sanctioned removals of statues rather than knocking them down in more or less spontaneous acts of civil disobedience.
I don’t click on Fox News links, so maybe I was off point, but I was thinking more about officially sanctioned removals of statues rather than knocking them down in more or less spontaneous acts of civil disobedience.
i think we are in a historical moment something like the start of the Reformation and the Reformation saw waves of iconoclasm and riots of a similar sort.
It was the Reformation that gave us the nation state as the dominant political model of organization. Many scholars have questioned whether or not we are in the midst of a shift to a new form of political organization.
Expect turbulence. We are in for a bumpy ride, both domestically and globally.
i think we are in a historical moment something like the start of the Reformation and the Reformation saw waves of iconoclasm and riots of a similar sort.
It was the Reformation that gave us the nation state as the dominant political model of organization. Many scholars have questioned whether or not we are in the midst of a shift to a new form of political organization.
Expect turbulence. We are in for a bumpy ride, both domestically and globally.
nous,
I tend more toward decline and fall of the Roman Empire myself. The utter failure of humankind to meet the collective action problem of global warming will usher in a new Dark Ages.
And that’s the optimistic take.
I pray that I am wrong….
nous,
I tend more toward decline and fall of the Roman Empire myself. The utter failure of humankind to meet the collective action problem of global warming will usher in a new Dark Ages.
And that’s the optimistic take.
I pray that I am wrong….
At least we don’t have to contend with a global pandemic during this upheaval. Oh, wait … crap.
At least we don’t have to contend with a global pandemic during this upheaval. Oh, wait … crap.
It’s a purely symbolic gesture
symbols can matter. they were powerfully symbolic to the people who put them up, after all.
and the symbol was not intended to make former slaves and their children feel welcome at government buildings.
either we acknowledge that everyone in this country is welcome, or we don’t. but symbols like those statues are how we communicate that.
It’s a purely symbolic gesture
symbols can matter. they were powerfully symbolic to the people who put them up, after all.
and the symbol was not intended to make former slaves and their children feel welcome at government buildings.
either we acknowledge that everyone in this country is welcome, or we don’t. but symbols like those statues are how we communicate that.
bobbyp – current historians would call that period the Migration Era, and we are certainly in the early stages of one of those as well. I think we have enough infrastructure in place to keep the show running, but I don’t think it will be pretty.
bobbyp – current historians would call that period the Migration Era, and we are certainly in the early stages of one of those as well. I think we have enough infrastructure in place to keep the show running, but I don’t think it will be pretty.
cleek – agree. Symbolic gestures matter on some pretty deep levels.
cleek – agree. Symbolic gestures matter on some pretty deep levels.
symbols can matter. they were powerfully symbolic to the people who put them up, after all.
Yup. And those same people are not only (perhaps not even especially) opposed to mob actions ripping those Confederate statues down. My sense is that they are even more opposed to normal government action to remove them. Possibly because it’s easier to denounce violent minority action than peaceful democratic ones.
A calm government action to remove the statues, after all, just demonstrates that not only did they lose the war, they are (finally!) losing the peace as well.
symbols can matter. they were powerfully symbolic to the people who put them up, after all.
Yup. And those same people are not only (perhaps not even especially) opposed to mob actions ripping those Confederate statues down. My sense is that they are even more opposed to normal government action to remove them. Possibly because it’s easier to denounce violent minority action than peaceful democratic ones.
A calm government action to remove the statues, after all, just demonstrates that not only did they lose the war, they are (finally!) losing the peace as well.
The one thing that segment of the right fear more than anything else is looking like a cuck. They will burn it all down themselves in ordre to avoid that.
The one thing that segment of the right fear more than anything else is looking like a cuck. They will burn it all down themselves in ordre to avoid that.
Let it also be said that of all the things an “unrestrained mob” can destroy, statues are about the least … what’s the word I’m looking for … consequential? inconvenient?
In re Sullivan: did he have any comment when “unrestrained mobs” of Iraquis were tearing down statues of Saddam?
–TP
Let it also be said that of all the things an “unrestrained mob” can destroy, statues are about the least … what’s the word I’m looking for … consequential? inconvenient?
In re Sullivan: did he have any comment when “unrestrained mobs” of Iraquis were tearing down statues of Saddam?
–TP
hsh, I dont look at fox news either, it was on my cnbc feed and I had just seen Johnson on cnbc a few weeks ago so I clicked on it. Overall it was an interesting take from a guy who suggests we should pay 360k to every black person in America and call it even.
hsh, I dont look at fox news either, it was on my cnbc feed and I had just seen Johnson on cnbc a few weeks ago so I clicked on it. Overall it was an interesting take from a guy who suggests we should pay 360k to every black person in America and call it even.
last year, after our town’s TIDOS statue was taken down. and since then, at least three 30′ high, 6″ diameter flagpoles sporting confederate flags have popped up in our town – with 5′ fences around their bases. two of them are on the main road into town.
and i know all the houses around me with “Protect Our Statues / Preserve Our Heritage” lawn signs.
from this, i know a few big things about a few of my fellow villagers.
i know they don’t care about 20% of the people who live there. i know they’re both aggressive in their desire to tell everybody what they think, and that they’re fearful of people not responding well to it. i know they’re never going to be invited to my house.
and yes, most of them are Trump supporters.
last year, after our town’s TIDOS statue was taken down. and since then, at least three 30′ high, 6″ diameter flagpoles sporting confederate flags have popped up in our town – with 5′ fences around their bases. two of them are on the main road into town.
and i know all the houses around me with “Protect Our Statues / Preserve Our Heritage” lawn signs.
from this, i know a few big things about a few of my fellow villagers.
i know they don’t care about 20% of the people who live there. i know they’re both aggressive in their desire to tell everybody what they think, and that they’re fearful of people not responding well to it. i know they’re never going to be invited to my house.
and yes, most of them are Trump supporters.
Pass a federal law that all statues of Confederate figures must wear N95 medical masks, and the genocidal cucks will tear the things down themselves.
State and local public health officials across the country are being hounded from their jobs by genocidal republican politicians and the their operatives in the conservative movement who are inundating these public servants and their families with death threats.
I would link, but just fuck it.
Wipe the conservative movement and its crypto-non-Christian faithful off the face of the Earth.
As long as it permitted to exist, America is dog shit.
Pass a federal law that all statues of Confederate figures must wear N95 medical masks, and the genocidal cucks will tear the things down themselves.
State and local public health officials across the country are being hounded from their jobs by genocidal republican politicians and the their operatives in the conservative movement who are inundating these public servants and their families with death threats.
I would link, but just fuck it.
Wipe the conservative movement and its crypto-non-Christian faithful off the face of the Earth.
As long as it permitted to exist, America is dog shit.
Thanks for replying Donald, I just lost a long comment, and have to get going today, but I did want to reply. I appreciate you reminding me that ‘fisking’ was a RW tactic, I thought that it referred to the way that Robert Fisk would analyze various articles and the word was hijacked by the RW in a similar manner to political correctness, which might make for an interesting discussion, but only after tempers have cooled.
I also understand that you don’t agree with everything that Cooper says, which is why I said that I was addressing his article. If you feel I was projecting my biases on Cooper, that’s certainly possible, I would (and have) considered that. Since I don’t know what you agree with and what you disagree with in the article, I could only tackle what Cooper himself wrote. It would have been useful to identify what you agreed with and what you disagreed with in order to figure out where we agree, but that train has probably left the station.
Now, I admit that the title and date of Cooper’s article ‘triggered’ me. Even if you make a living at putting your opinion out there, I can’t believe that someone would choose that time to take up the topic. It could be that the piece is full of insights about police violence and an editor gave it that title in order to drive more views. But I, for one, don’t want to talk about how white people are put upon by the police. It just seems, at this historical moment, totally wrong.
At the risk of continuing this beyond the point of usefulness, I’d note that in checking about Chris Hedge’s book, I reread Simone Weill’s The Iliad, or the Poem of Force
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25294008
and the passage beginning on page 8 with
A stranger, completely disabled, disarmed, strengthless… struck me so strongly that my daughter asked if something was wrong when she saw the look on my face. I (and again, this may be my projection) draw a direct line to the way George Floyd was killed (along with the militarization of police, the treatment of aliens in the US, and a whole host of societal issues) with the issues that you have often raised with drone assasinations and warfare by proxy. As you mention to nous, a Truth and Reconciliation committee should cover aspects of state violence both ‘domestic and foreign’. As Americans, we are guilty of that and as part of the white majority, I feel we are ‘guilty’ of George Floyd’s death.
That’s a harsh thing to say and when it is reduced to the level of individuals, it sounds like I am claiming that I am less guilty because I acknowledge it. I think that is inevitable if I choose to talk about it here (which is why I posted the video and set out the rules, again, possibly unfair and tilting the field towards my viewpoint, but I did what I thought would allow conversation to take place)
I apologize if this casts a shadow on who you are here (or anyone else here who disagrees with DiAngelo) and what you believe. I will say, I don’t know you and am not able to judge your value as a person except thru our interactions here. But I feel strongly enough to take the position that I take and guilty enough to feel that it should be acknowledged.
Thanks for replying Donald, I just lost a long comment, and have to get going today, but I did want to reply. I appreciate you reminding me that ‘fisking’ was a RW tactic, I thought that it referred to the way that Robert Fisk would analyze various articles and the word was hijacked by the RW in a similar manner to political correctness, which might make for an interesting discussion, but only after tempers have cooled.
I also understand that you don’t agree with everything that Cooper says, which is why I said that I was addressing his article. If you feel I was projecting my biases on Cooper, that’s certainly possible, I would (and have) considered that. Since I don’t know what you agree with and what you disagree with in the article, I could only tackle what Cooper himself wrote. It would have been useful to identify what you agreed with and what you disagreed with in order to figure out where we agree, but that train has probably left the station.
Now, I admit that the title and date of Cooper’s article ‘triggered’ me. Even if you make a living at putting your opinion out there, I can’t believe that someone would choose that time to take up the topic. It could be that the piece is full of insights about police violence and an editor gave it that title in order to drive more views. But I, for one, don’t want to talk about how white people are put upon by the police. It just seems, at this historical moment, totally wrong.
At the risk of continuing this beyond the point of usefulness, I’d note that in checking about Chris Hedge’s book, I reread Simone Weill’s The Iliad, or the Poem of Force
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25294008
and the passage beginning on page 8 with
A stranger, completely disabled, disarmed, strengthless… struck me so strongly that my daughter asked if something was wrong when she saw the look on my face. I (and again, this may be my projection) draw a direct line to the way George Floyd was killed (along with the militarization of police, the treatment of aliens in the US, and a whole host of societal issues) with the issues that you have often raised with drone assasinations and warfare by proxy. As you mention to nous, a Truth and Reconciliation committee should cover aspects of state violence both ‘domestic and foreign’. As Americans, we are guilty of that and as part of the white majority, I feel we are ‘guilty’ of George Floyd’s death.
That’s a harsh thing to say and when it is reduced to the level of individuals, it sounds like I am claiming that I am less guilty because I acknowledge it. I think that is inevitable if I choose to talk about it here (which is why I posted the video and set out the rules, again, possibly unfair and tilting the field towards my viewpoint, but I did what I thought would allow conversation to take place)
I apologize if this casts a shadow on who you are here (or anyone else here who disagrees with DiAngelo) and what you believe. I will say, I don’t know you and am not able to judge your value as a person except thru our interactions here. But I feel strongly enough to take the position that I take and guilty enough to feel that it should be acknowledged.
I’ll add a second FiveThirtyEight piece to the one that hairshirthedonist added above – this one a historical look at how the Republican party lost its color:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-republican-choice/
This seems like a venue that might lead to some good cross-talk on the subject and also one to find any holes in the argument that Malone puts forward in the piece.
I’ll add a second FiveThirtyEight piece to the one that hairshirthedonist added above – this one a historical look at how the Republican party lost its color:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-republican-choice/
This seems like a venue that might lead to some good cross-talk on the subject and also one to find any holes in the argument that Malone puts forward in the piece.
And while we are at it…one on monuments and history from Hanif Abdurraqib:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-vanishing-monuments-of-columbus-ohio
Toppling a statue is a symbolic act, but it comes after years of concrete work and pressure. There were the people who took to the streets, in 1992, to say, No, this boat cannot sit here, and the people in the years after who stood at the feet of Christopher Columbus and said, No, this statue cannot sit here—the people who told the present and past mayors that there is a debt for the history that the city still chooses to revel in. In recent weeks, people have once again taken to the streets in Columbus and across the country. There is a bigger picture propelling them, but even the smaller fights serve as a bridge to something larger. After the City Hall statue is taken down and tucked away, some of those same people will be right back, tapping their fingers on the city’s flag and seal, which bear the image of the Santa Maria. They’ll be taking aim at the city’s third and oldest Columbus statue, which stands at the statehouse, and writing letters to the mayor demanding to change the city’s name—which now, in this era of new possibilities, seems not out of the question. Among these people are those who have seen their small sanctuaries in the city get swept away—people who have lost the buildings that they grew up in, or the restaurants where their folks worked when they were starting from nothing. A city cannot consistently transform itself at the expense of its most marginalized citizens and not expect those citizens to have a vast imagination about what a further transformation—whether of statues, a name, or leadership—could be.
Abdurraqib is, as always, thoroughly readable and thought provoking.
And while we are at it…one on monuments and history from Hanif Abdurraqib:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-vanishing-monuments-of-columbus-ohio
Toppling a statue is a symbolic act, but it comes after years of concrete work and pressure. There were the people who took to the streets, in 1992, to say, No, this boat cannot sit here, and the people in the years after who stood at the feet of Christopher Columbus and said, No, this statue cannot sit here—the people who told the present and past mayors that there is a debt for the history that the city still chooses to revel in. In recent weeks, people have once again taken to the streets in Columbus and across the country. There is a bigger picture propelling them, but even the smaller fights serve as a bridge to something larger. After the City Hall statue is taken down and tucked away, some of those same people will be right back, tapping their fingers on the city’s flag and seal, which bear the image of the Santa Maria. They’ll be taking aim at the city’s third and oldest Columbus statue, which stands at the statehouse, and writing letters to the mayor demanding to change the city’s name—which now, in this era of new possibilities, seems not out of the question. Among these people are those who have seen their small sanctuaries in the city get swept away—people who have lost the buildings that they grew up in, or the restaurants where their folks worked when they were starting from nothing. A city cannot consistently transform itself at the expense of its most marginalized citizens and not expect those citizens to have a vast imagination about what a further transformation—whether of statues, a name, or leadership—could be.
Abdurraqib is, as always, thoroughly readable and thought provoking.
lj, a sensitive and thoughtful comment, if I may interject. These are immensely snarled and knotty issues we are dealing with, and it’s all too easy to allow oneself to flare up when (talking in cyberspace as opposed to IRL) so much of it is only going on in one’s own head.
I love the sound of The Poem of Force, I shall certainly pursue it tomorrow when back on my computer, as opposed to the accursed phone.
lj, a sensitive and thoughtful comment, if I may interject. These are immensely snarled and knotty issues we are dealing with, and it’s all too easy to allow oneself to flare up when (talking in cyberspace as opposed to IRL) so much of it is only going on in one’s own head.
I love the sound of The Poem of Force, I shall certainly pursue it tomorrow when back on my computer, as opposed to the accursed phone.
It could be that the piece is full of insights about police violence and an editor gave it that title in order to drive more views. But I, for one, don’t want to talk about how white people are put upon by the police. It just seems, at this historical moment, totally wrong.
It might have been better to call it “Why White People Should Support Black Lives Matter, If Even for Selfish Reasons” (or whatever better title you can think of in the same vein).
It could be that the piece is full of insights about police violence and an editor gave it that title in order to drive more views. But I, for one, don’t want to talk about how white people are put upon by the police. It just seems, at this historical moment, totally wrong.
It might have been better to call it “Why White People Should Support Black Lives Matter, If Even for Selfish Reasons” (or whatever better title you can think of in the same vein).
If Republicans were statues, would we be justified in using Second Amendment solutions against them as they invaded our property and sank their fangs into us:
https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/7-i-team-exclusive-state-supreme-court-judge-grisanti-under-investigation-after-brawl-with-neighbors
All the wrong people have guns, and all the wrong people .. don’t.
If Republicans were statues, would we be justified in using Second Amendment solutions against them as they invaded our property and sank their fangs into us:
https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/7-i-team-exclusive-state-supreme-court-judge-grisanti-under-investigation-after-brawl-with-neighbors
All the wrong people have guns, and all the wrong people .. don’t.
Brand ’em on their foreheads:
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/06/what-happens-post-trump-to-the-gop
I mean, Hugo Stiglitz is always available:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grq0rhtbtAw
Brand ’em on their foreheads:
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/06/what-happens-post-trump-to-the-gop
I mean, Hugo Stiglitz is always available:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grq0rhtbtAw
“ It’s a purely symbolic gesture”
Was that a quote from me? I am losing track and am too lazy to reread the thread. It sounds like me slightly overstating my point
I am in favor of removing Confederate statues. I would prefer to see it done legally, but the illegal demolition is not high on my list of things to worry about.
In the past I have gotten frustrated over how in American politics we often seem to get more excited about symbolism than substance. So some antiwar protestor burns a flag and pretty soon more people are arguing about the symbolism of the flag and the burning of it than about the war and war crimes and accountability. And I think that in the past this has been a gift for the right. The country might have changed enough so that this is no longer the case.
LJ— Thanks for your reply. If you want to post more I will read it, but may or may not reply.
“ It’s a purely symbolic gesture”
Was that a quote from me? I am losing track and am too lazy to reread the thread. It sounds like me slightly overstating my point
I am in favor of removing Confederate statues. I would prefer to see it done legally, but the illegal demolition is not high on my list of things to worry about.
In the past I have gotten frustrated over how in American politics we often seem to get more excited about symbolism than substance. So some antiwar protestor burns a flag and pretty soon more people are arguing about the symbolism of the flag and the burning of it than about the war and war crimes and accountability. And I think that in the past this has been a gift for the right. The country might have changed enough so that this is no longer the case.
LJ— Thanks for your reply. If you want to post more I will read it, but may or may not reply.
Now this I liked—
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/opinion/black-lives-matter-injustice.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
Now this I liked—
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/opinion/black-lives-matter-injustice.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
Gosh, I hope no one gets a hold of these account numbers:
https://juanitajean.com/hush-now-keep-this-a-secret-okay/
Gosh, I hope no one gets a hold of these account numbers:
https://juanitajean.com/hush-now-keep-this-a-secret-okay/
House approves DC statehood.
GOP are all like “hell nah”. because representation offends them, i guess? let’s go with that.
House approves DC statehood.
GOP are all like “hell nah”. because representation offends them, i guess? let’s go with that.
I understand the sentiment about DC, but on general principle my opinion is that there should be fewer statelets, not more.
I understand the sentiment about DC, but on general principle my opinion is that there should be fewer statelets, not more.
DC is established in the Constitution as an area exclusively under the control of Congress. Or, at least, Congress “has the power” to do so.
Which, as an aside, raises in my mind the question of why everybody has been talking about Trump’s “unique power” to do whatever the hell wants in DC. Trump ain’t Congress.
But in any case, this is likely to be… complicated.
A nice gesture, depending on how you look at it, but I can’t see how it will go beyond that.
DC is established in the Constitution as an area exclusively under the control of Congress. Or, at least, Congress “has the power” to do so.
Which, as an aside, raises in my mind the question of why everybody has been talking about Trump’s “unique power” to do whatever the hell wants in DC. Trump ain’t Congress.
But in any case, this is likely to be… complicated.
A nice gesture, depending on how you look at it, but I can’t see how it will go beyond that.
there should be fewer statelets, not more
:: Rhode Island stares daggers… ::
there should be fewer statelets, not more
:: Rhode Island stares daggers… ::
GOP are all like “hell nah”. because representation offends them, i guess?
Then there’s Senator Cotton’s explanation for why he’s against D.C. statehood. Well, at least he acknowledged that D.C. has more people than Wyoming. Even if they aren’t miners and ranchers. Do these people even listen to themselves?
GOP are all like “hell nah”. because representation offends them, i guess?
Then there’s Senator Cotton’s explanation for why he’s against D.C. statehood. Well, at least he acknowledged that D.C. has more people than Wyoming. Even if they aren’t miners and ranchers. Do these people even listen to themselves?
DC is established in the Constitution as an area exclusively under the control of Congress.
a body in which they have no real representation.
that needs to be fixed.
DC is established in the Constitution as an area exclusively under the control of Congress.
a body in which they have no real representation.
that needs to be fixed.
Then there’s Senator Cotton’s explanation for why he’s against D.C. statehood.
typical elitist jerkwad.
Then there’s Senator Cotton’s explanation for why he’s against D.C. statehood.
typical elitist jerkwad.
“that needs to be fixed”
Why? Seriously. Why does that need to be fixed? It was specifically excluded on purpose, why is that different now?
“that needs to be fixed”
Why? Seriously. Why does that need to be fixed? It was specifically excluded on purpose, why is that different now?
A nice gesture, depending on how you look at it, but I can’t see how it will go beyond that.
With a Democratic President and a Democratic Senate that got rid of the filibuster once and for all, this would be a distinct possibility.
Right now the country is at a crossroads…split right down the middle. A house divided cannot stand (I read that somewhere). Somebody is going to prevail.
As you stated earlier, conservatives cheat. It has to stop.
A nice gesture, depending on how you look at it, but I can’t see how it will go beyond that.
With a Democratic President and a Democratic Senate that got rid of the filibuster once and for all, this would be a distinct possibility.
Right now the country is at a crossroads…split right down the middle. A house divided cannot stand (I read that somewhere). Somebody is going to prevail.
As you stated earlier, conservatives cheat. It has to stop.
:: Rhode Island stares daggers… ::
Ditto Delaware and Vermont :^) Right time and place, I understand. In a continent-spanning country of 330M people in 2020, there’s almost no reason other than accident of history to have states less than several thousand square miles and a couple million people.
The Constitution says that there has to be a federal district, and that it can’t exceed ten miles square, but that’s it. Granting statehood to most of DC would drastically reduce the size of the district. In that case there would be much less reason to not consider relocating it to someplace more convenient. The population-weighted center of the country is in Missouri; the geographic center of the contiguous 48 states is along the Nebraska-Kansas border somewhat farther west. I’ve always advocated putting the district near North Platte, NE because it would encourage Congress to finish up their business in a few months each year and then go home.
:: Rhode Island stares daggers… ::
Ditto Delaware and Vermont :^) Right time and place, I understand. In a continent-spanning country of 330M people in 2020, there’s almost no reason other than accident of history to have states less than several thousand square miles and a couple million people.
The Constitution says that there has to be a federal district, and that it can’t exceed ten miles square, but that’s it. Granting statehood to most of DC would drastically reduce the size of the district. In that case there would be much less reason to not consider relocating it to someplace more convenient. The population-weighted center of the country is in Missouri; the geographic center of the contiguous 48 states is along the Nebraska-Kansas border somewhat farther west. I’ve always advocated putting the district near North Platte, NE because it would encourage Congress to finish up their business in a few months each year and then go home.
Why? Seriously. Why does that need to be fixed? It was specifically excluded on purpose, why is that different now?
DC currently has 1/3 of the population the entire US did in 1776. seems unlikely they’d want to exclude that many people from representation.
why do you want those people to be without representation?
Why? Seriously. Why does that need to be fixed? It was specifically excluded on purpose, why is that different now?
DC currently has 1/3 of the population the entire US did in 1776. seems unlikely they’d want to exclude that many people from representation.
why do you want those people to be without representation?
why do you want those people to be without representation?
I seem to recall a revolutionary slogan, from back in the day:
Which does suggest a GOP-friendly solution: exempt D.C. residents from all Federal taxes.** Wonder how that idea would be received….
** Need something inventive to calculate appropriate Social Security payments when the retire. But that’s a nit.
why do you want those people to be without representation?
I seem to recall a revolutionary slogan, from back in the day:
Which does suggest a GOP-friendly solution: exempt D.C. residents from all Federal taxes.** Wonder how that idea would be received….
** Need something inventive to calculate appropriate Social Security payments when the retire. But that’s a nit.
why do you want those people to be without representation?
I, at least, don’t. I want them to be represented as part of Maryland. Just like the people living in the area of the original district that was south of the Potomac, who had no representation prior to 1846, when they became part of Virginia. What I don’t want is to create a new state out of a city that is smaller, by both area and population, than Denver. No one thinks Denver is of an appropriate size to be a state.
why do you want those people to be without representation?
I, at least, don’t. I want them to be represented as part of Maryland. Just like the people living in the area of the original district that was south of the Potomac, who had no representation prior to 1846, when they became part of Virginia. What I don’t want is to create a new state out of a city that is smaller, by both area and population, than Denver. No one thinks Denver is of an appropriate size to be a state.
Make Washington D.C. a charter city… 🙂
Make Washington D.C. a charter city… 🙂
No one thinks Denver is of an appropriate size to be a state.
Back in the day, the original states had quite distinct characters. And there wasn’t much migration between them. Now, the real differences between neighboring states are minimal. And the whole bloody country is populated by people from somewhere else.**
Which suggests a straightforward, albeit radical, solution: Sit down with a blank map and draw new state lines, the same way we draw new Congressional districts every 10 years. (In the places where it is done by nonpartisan commission, rather than by gerrymander).
** By which I mean those born in the greater “here” which is the whole country.
No one thinks Denver is of an appropriate size to be a state.
Back in the day, the original states had quite distinct characters. And there wasn’t much migration between them. Now, the real differences between neighboring states are minimal. And the whole bloody country is populated by people from somewhere else.**
Which suggests a straightforward, albeit radical, solution: Sit down with a blank map and draw new state lines, the same way we draw new Congressional districts every 10 years. (In the places where it is done by nonpartisan commission, rather than by gerrymander).
** By which I mean those born in the greater “here” which is the whole country.
And the whole bloody country is populated by people from somewhere else.
About 25 years ago I was at a bicycle club ride with several dozen other riders.
Someone said to me, “I didn’t realize that there was this much interest in bicycle riding in Texas.”
I said, “There isn’t. I’m the only Texan here.”
And the whole bloody country is populated by people from somewhere else.
About 25 years ago I was at a bicycle club ride with several dozen other riders.
Someone said to me, “I didn’t realize that there was this much interest in bicycle riding in Texas.”
I said, “There isn’t. I’m the only Texan here.”
And the whole bloody country is populated by people from somewhere else.**
The variation between states is interesting. The 2010 census found that 78.8% of people living in Louisiana were born there. At the other extreme, only 24.3% of people living in Nevada were born there. The ten states with the highest percentage of “natives” are all in the Midwest and Deep South. The states with the least are all — but Florida and two statelets in the NE urban corridor — in the West. The NE urban corridor statelets are in places where metro area growth has little choice but to spill across state borders.
I would not have guessed the spread to be that wide. Unsurprisingly, the states with the highest native percentages are states that have lost seats in the US House after the last couple of censuses, or are on pace to lose a seat after this year’s census.
Redrawing lines could work — if states were mere administrative organs for the federal government and all important decisions were made at the federal level. Imagine living in a county that gets moved from state A to state B in order to balance the population after the census; but you lose your eligibility for Medicaid.
And the whole bloody country is populated by people from somewhere else.**
The variation between states is interesting. The 2010 census found that 78.8% of people living in Louisiana were born there. At the other extreme, only 24.3% of people living in Nevada were born there. The ten states with the highest percentage of “natives” are all in the Midwest and Deep South. The states with the least are all — but Florida and two statelets in the NE urban corridor — in the West. The NE urban corridor statelets are in places where metro area growth has little choice but to spill across state borders.
I would not have guessed the spread to be that wide. Unsurprisingly, the states with the highest native percentages are states that have lost seats in the US House after the last couple of censuses, or are on pace to lose a seat after this year’s census.
Redrawing lines could work — if states were mere administrative organs for the federal government and all important decisions were made at the federal level. Imagine living in a county that gets moved from state A to state B in order to balance the population after the census; but you lose your eligibility for Medicaid.
No one thinks Denver is of an appropriate size to be a state.
An assertion that totally misses the point.
No one thinks Denver is of an appropriate size to be a state.
An assertion that totally misses the point.
It never fucking stops:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/6/26/1956184/-Guards-pepper-sprayed-and-restrained-asylum-seekers-by-the-neck-for-protesting-their-detention
Beware the savage fury that is coming.
It never fucking stops:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/6/26/1956184/-Guards-pepper-sprayed-and-restrained-asylum-seekers-by-the-neck-for-protesting-their-detention
Beware the savage fury that is coming.
I think if you ran the numbers for people who were born in New England, who still live within 100 miles of where they born, those numbers would rival whatever numbers you’re getting from the Midwest and Deep South.
And all of that said, there is no way in hell that anybody is going to re-draw state boundaries in any significant way. The logistics will crush any any attempt to do so.
I think if you ran the numbers for people who were born in New England, who still live within 100 miles of where they born, those numbers would rival whatever numbers you’re getting from the Midwest and Deep South.
And all of that said, there is no way in hell that anybody is going to re-draw state boundaries in any significant way. The logistics will crush any any attempt to do so.
there is no way in hell that anybody is going to re-draw state boundaries in any significant way.
Likely not. But that being the case, there’s no point in griping about the imbalances that result.
It may be unfair. It may be incredibly irritating. But it’s how the world is and will remain, so better to focus on how to work with it. Otherwise, you are (forgive me) in the same kind of unreality as the climate change denialists.
there is no way in hell that anybody is going to re-draw state boundaries in any significant way.
Likely not. But that being the case, there’s no point in griping about the imbalances that result.
It may be unfair. It may be incredibly irritating. But it’s how the world is and will remain, so better to focus on how to work with it. Otherwise, you are (forgive me) in the same kind of unreality as the climate change denialists.
No one thinks Denver is of an appropriate size to be a state.
it would be larger than Tom Cotton’s state.
No one thinks Denver is of an appropriate size to be a state.
it would be larger than Tom Cotton’s state.
Btw, who is Cotton?
Don’t ask me who Cotton is!
Don’t ask me my advice!
I’ve no idea who Cotton is.
All I have learned is his price!
(hats to B.Brecht and Hanns Eisler)
Btw, who is Cotton?
Don’t ask me who Cotton is!
Don’t ask me my advice!
I’ve no idea who Cotton is.
All I have learned is his price!
(hats to B.Brecht and Hanns Eisler)
it would be larger than Tom Cotton’s state.
Yes, but it doesn’t have logs. No logs, no reps.
We fought a revolution over this, people!
it would be larger than Tom Cotton’s state.
Yes, but it doesn’t have logs. No logs, no reps.
We fought a revolution over this, people!
Well, The henchcritters of Jabbabonk deleted and/or burned all the logs. Before them there were lots of them. Or did all the older ones go to the presidential libraries?
Well, The henchcritters of Jabbabonk deleted and/or burned all the logs. Before them there were lots of them. Or did all the older ones go to the presidential libraries?
“ it would be larger than Tom Cotton’s state.”
A small number of conservative people who live on large tracts of land deserve more representation than a large number of liberal people who live on small tracts of land.
If Wyoming were a liberal state and DC were conservative, conservative opposition to DC statehood would vanish and they would be using the arguments for DC statehood that liberals use.
I am cynical enough to think that probably some liberals would switch sides as well, but not as many.
“ it would be larger than Tom Cotton’s state.”
A small number of conservative people who live on large tracts of land deserve more representation than a large number of liberal people who live on small tracts of land.
If Wyoming were a liberal state and DC were conservative, conservative opposition to DC statehood would vanish and they would be using the arguments for DC statehood that liberals use.
I am cynical enough to think that probably some liberals would switch sides as well, but not as many.
If Wyoming were a liberal state and DC were conservative, conservative opposition to DC statehood would vanish and they would be using the arguments for DC statehood that liberals use.
Now if I were writing this, I would characterize those opposed to DC statehood as bigots, rather than as conservatives.
There’s actually nothing inherently conservative about depriving people of representation. But in this case, bigotry (and some partisanship) are definitely in play.
If Wyoming were a liberal state and DC were conservative, conservative opposition to DC statehood would vanish and they would be using the arguments for DC statehood that liberals use.
Now if I were writing this, I would characterize those opposed to DC statehood as bigots, rather than as conservatives.
There’s actually nothing inherently conservative about depriving people of representation. But in this case, bigotry (and some partisanship) are definitely in play.
If Wyoming were a liberal state and DC were conservative, conservative opposition to DC statehood would vanish and they would be using the arguments for DC statehood that liberals use.
Donald’s Law: nobody means anything and it’s all crap.
If Wyoming were a liberal state and DC were conservative, conservative opposition to DC statehood would vanish and they would be using the arguments for DC statehood that liberals use.
Donald’s Law: nobody means anything and it’s all crap.
TrumpCo is actively trying to get people sick.
remember when C19 was the Democrat’s latest hoax?
TrumpCo is actively trying to get people sick.
remember when C19 was the Democrat’s latest hoax?
A party which actively rejects the members of growing demographics, in favor of members of shrinking demographics, is in the process of committing suicide. Perhaps not surprising that its members would be similarly inclined on a personal level.
A party which actively rejects the members of growing demographics, in favor of members of shrinking demographics, is in the process of committing suicide. Perhaps not surprising that its members would be similarly inclined on a personal level.
“ Donald’s Law: nobody means anything and it’s all crap.”
Not sure how you got that out of this example— what I said actually sounds exactly like something you would say. We happen to agree on why Republicans oppose DC statehood, or so I thought.
I did say some liberals might switch positions I tge demographics were different, but actually, I think the majority of liberals are probably fairminded on voting rights for everyone.
So suck it up, Cleek— we mostly agree here.
“ Donald’s Law: nobody means anything and it’s all crap.”
Not sure how you got that out of this example— what I said actually sounds exactly like something you would say. We happen to agree on why Republicans oppose DC statehood, or so I thought.
I did say some liberals might switch positions I tge demographics were different, but actually, I think the majority of liberals are probably fairminded on voting rights for everyone.
So suck it up, Cleek— we mostly agree here.
“ if the demographics”
Weird typos on my iPad.
“ if the demographics”
Weird typos on my iPad.
OT, but thought people here might be interested in this from Hilzoy:
https://twitter.com/hilzoy/status/1277015702566768646
OT, but thought people here might be interested in this from Hilzoy:
https://twitter.com/hilzoy/status/1277015702566768646
Just in case you don’t know what my previous comment, Hilzoy’s tweet, was referring to:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russian-operation-targeted-coalition-troops-in-afghanistan-intelligence-finds/2020/06/26/ac710092-b80f-11ea-9b0f-c797548c1154_story.html
Yeah, and I’m sorry not to have embedded a link, but am tired.
Just in case you don’t know what my previous comment, Hilzoy’s tweet, was referring to:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russian-operation-targeted-coalition-troops-in-afghanistan-intelligence-finds/2020/06/26/ac710092-b80f-11ea-9b0f-c797548c1154_story.html
Yeah, and I’m sorry not to have embedded a link, but am tired.
There’s actually nothing inherently conservative about depriving people of representation.
Conservatism, per one writer, is built on the concept of reaction.* As such, depriving representation to the “lower orders” is not something that is absolutely out of bounds.
*Corey Robin
There’s actually nothing inherently conservative about depriving people of representation.
Conservatism, per one writer, is built on the concept of reaction.* As such, depriving representation to the “lower orders” is not something that is absolutely out of bounds.
*Corey Robin
Robin entitles his book “The Reactionary Mind”. If he’d had the grace (or the wit) to stick with “reactionary”, rather than pretending that “conservative” is a synonym, he might have something.
Robin entitles his book “The Reactionary Mind”. If he’d had the grace (or the wit) to stick with “reactionary”, rather than pretending that “conservative” is a synonym, he might have something.
He was bouncing ironically off Russell Kirk, methinks.
He was bouncing ironically off Russell Kirk, methinks.
There’s actually nothing inherently conservative about depriving people of representation.
Self styled “conservatives” have consistently opposed expanding the franchise throughout US history.
Today’s self styled “conservatives” pretty much hew to this in policy terms. Are you telling me they are not “real” conservatives?
Your turn.
There’s actually nothing inherently conservative about depriving people of representation.
Self styled “conservatives” have consistently opposed expanding the franchise throughout US history.
Today’s self styled “conservatives” pretty much hew to this in policy terms. Are you telling me they are not “real” conservatives?
Your turn.
I embrace the newly coined Donald’s Law when it comes to foreign policy..
https://www.newsweek.com/us-syria-representative-james-jeffrey-job-make-war-quagmire-russia-1503702
The US, Russia, and Iran have various proxy wars going on in Asia and this didn’t start with Trump. If we don’t want American soldiers dying in Afghanistan, pull them out. We can still kill people and create massive suffering without having ground forces over there. That’s what proxies and sanctions and air strikes are for.
So yeah, nobody means anything and it is all crap.
I embrace the newly coined Donald’s Law when it comes to foreign policy..
https://www.newsweek.com/us-syria-representative-james-jeffrey-job-make-war-quagmire-russia-1503702
The US, Russia, and Iran have various proxy wars going on in Asia and this didn’t start with Trump. If we don’t want American soldiers dying in Afghanistan, pull them out. We can still kill people and create massive suffering without having ground forces over there. That’s what proxies and sanctions and air strikes are for.
So yeah, nobody means anything and it is all crap.
A party which actively rejects the members of growing demographics, in favor of members of shrinking demographics, is in the process of committing suicide.
Or aiming for (de facto, not necessarily de jure) a one-party state. Such parties more often than not also make it a part of their official doctrine not to represent everybody (because opposing certain groups is at their core).
The communists called it the ‘party of a new type’ or ‘cadre party’ and officially adopted the model under Lenin. Or as Hitler put it: ‘these gentlmen are completely right. We ARE intolerant. I have set myself a single goal, i.e. to sweep these 30 parties* out of Germany’ (*referring to the ballot in the district where he held the speech).
Non-representative is the historical default, so conservatives tend towards that by their very nature (although this is not exclusive to them, see the communists).
A party which actively rejects the members of growing demographics, in favor of members of shrinking demographics, is in the process of committing suicide.
Or aiming for (de facto, not necessarily de jure) a one-party state. Such parties more often than not also make it a part of their official doctrine not to represent everybody (because opposing certain groups is at their core).
The communists called it the ‘party of a new type’ or ‘cadre party’ and officially adopted the model under Lenin. Or as Hitler put it: ‘these gentlmen are completely right. We ARE intolerant. I have set myself a single goal, i.e. to sweep these 30 parties* out of Germany’ (*referring to the ballot in the district where he held the speech).
Non-representative is the historical default, so conservatives tend towards that by their very nature (although this is not exclusive to them, see the communists).
There’s actually nothing inherently conservative about depriving people of representation.
Self styled “conservatives” have consistently opposed expanding the franchise throughout US history.
That’s not quite so clear in the UK, where both Whigs and Tories expanded the franchise. Admittedly the former tended to be more keen on the idea.
There’s actually nothing inherently conservative about depriving people of representation.
Self styled “conservatives” have consistently opposed expanding the franchise throughout US history.
That’s not quite so clear in the UK, where both Whigs and Tories expanded the franchise. Admittedly the former tended to be more keen on the idea.
Long Politico piece, well worth a read.
In suburban Detroit, a cookout full of Democratic voters bubbles into outrage, frustration at being taken for granted—and certainty that 2020 is in the bag for Trump.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/24/letter-to-washington-grosse-pointe-woods-325641
” Look around,” he told me, turning in his chair. “There’s music playing. Food on the barbeque. Three or four different groups having conversations. People making sure everyone’s fed, everyone’s having a good time. People playing games. You see, we’re just like everyone else. So why do they treat us different? Why are they scared of us?”
He thought for a moment. “Sometimes, I’ll hear my white friends talk about moments when they feared for their lives. But do they know what it’s like to fear their lives, for their entire lives?”
Long Politico piece, well worth a read.
In suburban Detroit, a cookout full of Democratic voters bubbles into outrage, frustration at being taken for granted—and certainty that 2020 is in the bag for Trump.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/24/letter-to-washington-grosse-pointe-woods-325641
” Look around,” he told me, turning in his chair. “There’s music playing. Food on the barbeque. Three or four different groups having conversations. People making sure everyone’s fed, everyone’s having a good time. People playing games. You see, we’re just like everyone else. So why do they treat us different? Why are they scared of us?”
He thought for a moment. “Sometimes, I’ll hear my white friends talk about moments when they feared for their lives. But do they know what it’s like to fear their lives, for their entire lives?”
I embrace the newly coined Donald’s Law
Given that you share that first name with someone else (if it refers to you, I’m pretty confused about all this), I’m not sure it is going to get any traction. Or if it does, if it won’t change the meaning.
How much our foreign policy is something that is connected to the way we conduct our domestic policy is an interesting question as is which way that connection goes. If you are an infantryman and you get out, the job you are likely to go into is police.
I remember someone suggesting that there was a direct linkage between the techniques used at Abu Grahib and those developed in the US penal insitutions, carried over by corrections workers who were in the National Guard. Charles Graner, of Abu Ghraib infamy, left high school to become and MP in the Marines, and after he served in the Persian Gulf war, became a corrections officer in the Pennslyvania system and was then called up.
I embrace the newly coined Donald’s Law
Given that you share that first name with someone else (if it refers to you, I’m pretty confused about all this), I’m not sure it is going to get any traction. Or if it does, if it won’t change the meaning.
How much our foreign policy is something that is connected to the way we conduct our domestic policy is an interesting question as is which way that connection goes. If you are an infantryman and you get out, the job you are likely to go into is police.
I remember someone suggesting that there was a direct linkage between the techniques used at Abu Grahib and those developed in the US penal insitutions, carried over by corrections workers who were in the National Guard. Charles Graner, of Abu Ghraib infamy, left high school to become and MP in the Marines, and after he served in the Persian Gulf war, became a corrections officer in the Pennslyvania system and was then called up.
Long Politico piece, well worth a read.
very much so…
Long Politico piece, well worth a read.
very much so…
The Politico piece was sobering.
It puts me in mind of this profile of Clarence Thomas.
It would be nice to think that racial division and inequity was something that could, finally, be addressed and resolved.
The evidence for it actually happening is, I think, slim.
The Politico piece was sobering.
It puts me in mind of this profile of Clarence Thomas.
It would be nice to think that racial division and inequity was something that could, finally, be addressed and resolved.
The evidence for it actually happening is, I think, slim.
what I said actually sounds exactly like something you would say
i know.
twas a joke.
what I said actually sounds exactly like something you would say
i know.
twas a joke.
Given that you share that first name with someone else
this… i was not clear on.
these are confusing times.
Given that you share that first name with someone else
this… i was not clear on.
these are confusing times.
Long Politico piece, well worth a read.
Fourthed.
Long Politico piece, well worth a read.
Fourthed.
Well, I wasn’t precisely sure what Donald’s law was and if it referred to Donald, but if it did, given that his first name is unfortunately the same as someone else’s, it would get awfully confusing. If it hasn’t already.
Also, that parenthetical ‘if it refers to you’ I think can have 4 different meanings depending on if you stress if, it, refers, or you. And I can’t remember which one I wanted to say…
Well, I wasn’t precisely sure what Donald’s law was and if it referred to Donald, but if it did, given that his first name is unfortunately the same as someone else’s, it would get awfully confusing. If it hasn’t already.
Also, that parenthetical ‘if it refers to you’ I think can have 4 different meanings depending on if you stress if, it, refers, or you. And I can’t remember which one I wanted to say…
Self styled “conservatives” have consistently opposed expanding the franchise throughout US history.
Today’s self styled “conservatives” pretty much hew to this in policy terms. Are you telling me they are not “real” conservatives?
I would say that the reality is that those who opposed expanding the franchise styled themselves as “conservatives”. In short, causality ran the other way. So yes, I’m saying that they aren’t real conservatives. To be fair, they may be handicapped by our political discourse not making use of the label “reactionary” — because that’s what they really are.
Here’s the difference: Reactionaries want zero change. In fact, they want to roll back to some earlier moment as the basis of that lack of change. Conservatives, in contrast, are clear that change is both inevitable and desirable — because society is imperfect, and its problems have to be addressed. We believe that, in most ( but not all) cases, it is best to go for the smallest change which will address the problem. But that’s far from saying that there should be no changes.
Perhaps an example will help clarify. In the early 1980s, in California, “domestic partnerships” were invented to try to give homosexuals the benefits of marriage. That is, it was an attempt, albeit not a conservative one, to address a problem. It failed on two counts. First, it wasn’t a good substitute for those who wanted to be really married. Second, it was mostly adopted by heterosexual couples who wanted the benefits of marriage without accepting the responsibilities. Which was a new problem.
At that point, there was an actual conservative solution in sight: scrap domestic partnerships (which weren’t fixing the problem) and just tweak the basic marriage law — take the places where it referred to “a man and a woman” and change it to “two adults”. Minimal change to the law, and addresses the problem.
Needless to say, bobbyp’s “self-styled conservatives” didn’t like it. But that’s because they are, indeed, not real conservatives.
Self styled “conservatives” have consistently opposed expanding the franchise throughout US history.
Today’s self styled “conservatives” pretty much hew to this in policy terms. Are you telling me they are not “real” conservatives?
I would say that the reality is that those who opposed expanding the franchise styled themselves as “conservatives”. In short, causality ran the other way. So yes, I’m saying that they aren’t real conservatives. To be fair, they may be handicapped by our political discourse not making use of the label “reactionary” — because that’s what they really are.
Here’s the difference: Reactionaries want zero change. In fact, they want to roll back to some earlier moment as the basis of that lack of change. Conservatives, in contrast, are clear that change is both inevitable and desirable — because society is imperfect, and its problems have to be addressed. We believe that, in most ( but not all) cases, it is best to go for the smallest change which will address the problem. But that’s far from saying that there should be no changes.
Perhaps an example will help clarify. In the early 1980s, in California, “domestic partnerships” were invented to try to give homosexuals the benefits of marriage. That is, it was an attempt, albeit not a conservative one, to address a problem. It failed on two counts. First, it wasn’t a good substitute for those who wanted to be really married. Second, it was mostly adopted by heterosexual couples who wanted the benefits of marriage without accepting the responsibilities. Which was a new problem.
At that point, there was an actual conservative solution in sight: scrap domestic partnerships (which weren’t fixing the problem) and just tweak the basic marriage law — take the places where it referred to “a man and a woman” and change it to “two adults”. Minimal change to the law, and addresses the problem.
Needless to say, bobbyp’s “self-styled conservatives” didn’t like it. But that’s because they are, indeed, not real conservatives.
The Politico piece was interesting anecdata, but to the extent those kinds of articles are supposed to represent broad thinking among [who, exactly?] wealthy black people in exclusive Michigan suburbs? wealthy people? black people? Michigan? it’s not necessarily “valuable.” Because what do we do about it?
If voters, no matter what their demographic, are truly convinced that Republicans and Democrats are equally or similarly bad, I don’t know that there’s a way to solve that. That was one of the problems I saw with the thinking of the people at that party. Another was misogyny. I like Cory Booker too, and would have been happy if Biden had skipped announcing that he’d choose a woman if choosing Cory Booker would have won over these voters. But it wouldn’t have.
And, you know, we still haven’t had a woman President. There’s a reason for that, and part of the reason is reflected among the people who were quoted in that article. There’s always something just a little bit too wrong with any woman who might be under consideration.
What to do about implicit bias, against African-Americans, against women: nobody’s immune from it. Maybe we should look for a vaccine.
The Politico piece was interesting anecdata, but to the extent those kinds of articles are supposed to represent broad thinking among [who, exactly?] wealthy black people in exclusive Michigan suburbs? wealthy people? black people? Michigan? it’s not necessarily “valuable.” Because what do we do about it?
If voters, no matter what their demographic, are truly convinced that Republicans and Democrats are equally or similarly bad, I don’t know that there’s a way to solve that. That was one of the problems I saw with the thinking of the people at that party. Another was misogyny. I like Cory Booker too, and would have been happy if Biden had skipped announcing that he’d choose a woman if choosing Cory Booker would have won over these voters. But it wouldn’t have.
And, you know, we still haven’t had a woman President. There’s a reason for that, and part of the reason is reflected among the people who were quoted in that article. There’s always something just a little bit too wrong with any woman who might be under consideration.
What to do about implicit bias, against African-Americans, against women: nobody’s immune from it. Maybe we should look for a vaccine.
Not exactly the point of the Politico piece, but it gets at the difference between being black and being poor. A white police commander doesn’t have to have “the talk” about the police with his kids. And the white neighbors in Grosse Pointe Park wouldn’t avoid calling 911 if one of their guests had fainted, wouldn’t have the police called on them for walking around the house they had just bought, and wouldn’t be questioned about how they could afford a nice car if (rather than when) they got pulled over. You don’t have to be poor to put up with a bunch of bulls*t if you’re black, even if it’s worse to be both.
Not exactly the point of the Politico piece, but it gets at the difference between being black and being poor. A white police commander doesn’t have to have “the talk” about the police with his kids. And the white neighbors in Grosse Pointe Park wouldn’t avoid calling 911 if one of their guests had fainted, wouldn’t have the police called on them for walking around the house they had just bought, and wouldn’t be questioned about how they could afford a nice car if (rather than when) they got pulled over. You don’t have to be poor to put up with a bunch of bulls*t if you’re black, even if it’s worse to be both.
even if it’s worse to be both
intersectionality alert!
even if it’s worse to be both
intersectionality alert!
If voters, no matter what their demographic, are truly convinced that Republicans and Democrats are equally or similarly bad, I don’t know that there’s a way to solve that.
There are some elections where the candidates are equally good or equally bad.** But I’m having trouble wrapping my head around anyone seeing Trump and anyone who ran being equally bad. And that includes the guys he was up against for the nomination in 2016 — some of whom were pretty terrible, but still.
There were certainly candidates for the Democratic nomination this time that I was unenthused about, and a couple I seriously disliked. But none of them came close to sinking to Trump’s level. If someone doesn’t see that, I don’t know how we start to communicate.
** I should perhaps note that California does top-two primaries. Which means we frequently end up with general elections featuring two Democrats — California Republicans having reduced themselves to that level of irrelevance.
If voters, no matter what their demographic, are truly convinced that Republicans and Democrats are equally or similarly bad, I don’t know that there’s a way to solve that.
There are some elections where the candidates are equally good or equally bad.** But I’m having trouble wrapping my head around anyone seeing Trump and anyone who ran being equally bad. And that includes the guys he was up against for the nomination in 2016 — some of whom were pretty terrible, but still.
There were certainly candidates for the Democratic nomination this time that I was unenthused about, and a couple I seriously disliked. But none of them came close to sinking to Trump’s level. If someone doesn’t see that, I don’t know how we start to communicate.
** I should perhaps note that California does top-two primaries. Which means we frequently end up with general elections featuring two Democrats — California Republicans having reduced themselves to that level of irrelevance.
intersectionality alert!
I almost wrote something to that effect, knowing what a nasty, phony concept some people think it is.
intersectionality alert!
I almost wrote something to that effect, knowing what a nasty, phony concept some people think it is.
the pressures of whiteness, wealth and masculinity add up.
the pressures of whiteness, wealth and masculinity add up.
This seems like information that should be widely disseminated. It seems to me that the diversity of the Democratic nominee’s campaign speaks volumes about the bona fides of the party’s commitment to its values. African-Americans are not being taken for granted, and not just being represented; they’re being included.
This seems like information that should be widely disseminated. It seems to me that the diversity of the Democratic nominee’s campaign speaks volumes about the bona fides of the party’s commitment to its values. African-Americans are not being taken for granted, and not just being represented; they’re being included.
you mean Biden isn’t re-tweeting angry old men in golf carts shouting “White Power” ?
you mean Biden isn’t re-tweeting angry old men in golf carts shouting “White Power” ?
Chief deputy warlord of genocidal bioterrorist conservative movement group responsible for murdering 124,000 Americans and possibly crippling and bankrupting hundreds of thousands more for life warns, with a poker face, that it’s too late ….. they are coming to kill and maim the rest of us, while 60 million operatives have been unmasked as volunteers to spread and infect and murder the remaining 260 million innocent Americans with the former’s conservative death cult god virus.
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/06/28/Alex-Azar-Window-is-closing-for-US-to-control-pandemic/9901593363214/
Fellow high-ranking murderous conservative warlord terrorist consigliere begins rounding up and disappearing patsies and scapegoats to distract 260 million victims of coming genocide.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/barr-george-floyd-violence-from-antifa-other-group-is-domestic-terrorism-and-will-be-treated-accordingly
Meanwhile, the Supreme Leader of conservative bioterrorist cult, leading America’s EVIL conservative Deep State agents from America’s White House, readies America’s total defeat at hands of his terrorist partners and masters abroad:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/06/29/what-fiona-hill-learned-in-the-white-house
Former ruthless warrior, once positioned to stop the EVIL, now toothless cuck cast aside, General James Mattis, bleats his admiration of perhaps the one hero who warned us, the latter of whom’s life was nearly snatched away by conservative movement assassins.
All media organs, representing the only armed force who might be capable of interdicting and defeating the domestic terrorists and who might object to America’s defeat systematically are silenced:
https://www.stripes.com/news/us/esper-defends-stripping-stars-and-stripes-of-all-funding-says-news-organization-is-not-a-priority-1.618614
Chief deputy warlord of genocidal bioterrorist conservative movement group responsible for murdering 124,000 Americans and possibly crippling and bankrupting hundreds of thousands more for life warns, with a poker face, that it’s too late ….. they are coming to kill and maim the rest of us, while 60 million operatives have been unmasked as volunteers to spread and infect and murder the remaining 260 million innocent Americans with the former’s conservative death cult god virus.
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/06/28/Alex-Azar-Window-is-closing-for-US-to-control-pandemic/9901593363214/
Fellow high-ranking murderous conservative warlord terrorist consigliere begins rounding up and disappearing patsies and scapegoats to distract 260 million victims of coming genocide.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/barr-george-floyd-violence-from-antifa-other-group-is-domestic-terrorism-and-will-be-treated-accordingly
Meanwhile, the Supreme Leader of conservative bioterrorist cult, leading America’s EVIL conservative Deep State agents from America’s White House, readies America’s total defeat at hands of his terrorist partners and masters abroad:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/06/29/what-fiona-hill-learned-in-the-white-house
Former ruthless warrior, once positioned to stop the EVIL, now toothless cuck cast aside, General James Mattis, bleats his admiration of perhaps the one hero who warned us, the latter of whom’s life was nearly snatched away by conservative movement assassins.
All media organs, representing the only armed force who might be capable of interdicting and defeating the domestic terrorists and who might object to America’s defeat systematically are silenced:
https://www.stripes.com/news/us/esper-defends-stripping-stars-and-stripes-of-all-funding-says-news-organization-is-not-a-priority-1.618614
Thanks for these links, John Thullen.
Thanks for these links, John Thullen.
Breathing gets more difficult in America every day. Seems the more we reduce taxes and regulation, the harder it is to draw that next breath:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Saharan+dust+cloud+health&filters=tnTID%3a%22B313FDD8-CC2C-4ba1-A74F-2B5D556E3D55%22+tnVersion%3a%223589451%22+segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%221%22+tnOrder%3a%2275af387b-afa3-450b-96af-d2ebaec599bd%22&FORM=BSPN01&crslsl=0
Why hasn’t trump closed our borders to foreign globalist dust?
From space, the foreign dust cloud is dwarfed by the huge, darkening cloud of horseshit swirling violently over America.
Breathing gets more difficult in America every day. Seems the more we reduce taxes and regulation, the harder it is to draw that next breath:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Saharan+dust+cloud+health&filters=tnTID%3a%22B313FDD8-CC2C-4ba1-A74F-2B5D556E3D55%22+tnVersion%3a%223589451%22+segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%221%22+tnOrder%3a%2275af387b-afa3-450b-96af-d2ebaec599bd%22&FORM=BSPN01&crslsl=0
Why hasn’t trump closed our borders to foreign globalist dust?
From space, the foreign dust cloud is dwarfed by the huge, darkening cloud of horseshit swirling violently over America.
So now the White House’s claim is that Trump was never briefed on the intelligence concerning the Russian operation paying bounties to the Taliban for killing American soldiers. Well, what else could they say? That Trump was told and didn’t care? (Or was told, but wasn’t paying attention, so it didn’t register?)
However, the salient question for Trump now would seem to be: Now that you are aware of it, what are you going to do about it? Needless to say, Trump won’t be responding.
So now the White House’s claim is that Trump was never briefed on the intelligence concerning the Russian operation paying bounties to the Taliban for killing American soldiers. Well, what else could they say? That Trump was told and didn’t care? (Or was told, but wasn’t paying attention, so it didn’t register?)
However, the salient question for Trump now would seem to be: Now that you are aware of it, what are you going to do about it? Needless to say, Trump won’t be responding.
However, the salient question for Trump now would seem to be: Now that you are aware of it, what are you going to do about it? Needless to say, Trump won’t be responding.
If it were kept in the news, someone would respond, but the problem is, a lot of people don’t care, so it won’t be news day after tomorrow. A lot of people don’t care that the President of the United States supports a foreign government that kills American servicemen. They don’t care that the President of the United States kills Americans by removing distancing signs at his own campaign rallies during an unprecedented (in modern times) worldwide pandemic. They don’t care that the President is embezzling untold amounts of taxpayer dollars from the Treasury, by diverting money to his private businesses and to those of his cronies.
They’d rather focus on ridiculing “woke” people, and “SJW”s who are trying to figure out how to make things better. Where is McKinney or Marty with a word of outrage? I hope they respond, but why aren’t they incentivized to start that conversation?
However, the salient question for Trump now would seem to be: Now that you are aware of it, what are you going to do about it? Needless to say, Trump won’t be responding.
If it were kept in the news, someone would respond, but the problem is, a lot of people don’t care, so it won’t be news day after tomorrow. A lot of people don’t care that the President of the United States supports a foreign government that kills American servicemen. They don’t care that the President of the United States kills Americans by removing distancing signs at his own campaign rallies during an unprecedented (in modern times) worldwide pandemic. They don’t care that the President is embezzling untold amounts of taxpayer dollars from the Treasury, by diverting money to his private businesses and to those of his cronies.
They’d rather focus on ridiculing “woke” people, and “SJW”s who are trying to figure out how to make things better. Where is McKinney or Marty with a word of outrage? I hope they respond, but why aren’t they incentivized to start that conversation?
They’d rather focus on ridiculing “woke” people, and “SJW”s who are trying to figure out how to make things better. Where is McKinney or Marty with a word of outrage? I hope they respond, but why aren’t they incentivized to start that conversation?
I’m not sure who this is addressed to, but if it is, I’m not sure how I’m supposed to incentivize people to start conversation, but there is a standing invitation for any regular, if they want to make a post, so send it to me. We still don’t have a clear definition of ‘regular’, but I’m taking it to be like Potter’s definite of obscenity, I’ll know it when I see it.
They’d rather focus on ridiculing “woke” people, and “SJW”s who are trying to figure out how to make things better. Where is McKinney or Marty with a word of outrage? I hope they respond, but why aren’t they incentivized to start that conversation?
I’m not sure who this is addressed to, but if it is, I’m not sure how I’m supposed to incentivize people to start conversation, but there is a standing invitation for any regular, if they want to make a post, so send it to me. We still don’t have a clear definition of ‘regular’, but I’m taking it to be like Potter’s definite of obscenity, I’ll know it when I see it.
“A lot of people don’t care that the President of the United States supports a foreign government that kills American servicemen. They don’t care that the President of the United States kills Americans by removing distancing signs at his own campaign rallies during an unprecedented (in modern times) worldwide pandemic. They don’t care that the President is embezzling untold amounts of taxpayer dollars from the Treasury, by diverting money to his private businesses and to those of his cronies.”
I’m outraged at many things, mostly things that are facts. There are plenty of those without getting outraged about things that are the random ranktings of conspiracy theorists on the left, from the nyt to juanita jean.
It would be huge waste of energy to expend it expressing my outrage against Trump here, yall pretty much have that covered 24/7.
But, on the topic of Afghanistsn, I am for any deal/negotiations that brings every troop home. Anyone surprised that Russia pays people to kill US troops hasnt been on this planet anytime in the last 60 years.
I’m curious what you think we should do about that?
“A lot of people don’t care that the President of the United States supports a foreign government that kills American servicemen. They don’t care that the President of the United States kills Americans by removing distancing signs at his own campaign rallies during an unprecedented (in modern times) worldwide pandemic. They don’t care that the President is embezzling untold amounts of taxpayer dollars from the Treasury, by diverting money to his private businesses and to those of his cronies.”
I’m outraged at many things, mostly things that are facts. There are plenty of those without getting outraged about things that are the random ranktings of conspiracy theorists on the left, from the nyt to juanita jean.
It would be huge waste of energy to expend it expressing my outrage against Trump here, yall pretty much have that covered 24/7.
But, on the topic of Afghanistsn, I am for any deal/negotiations that brings every troop home. Anyone surprised that Russia pays people to kill US troops hasnt been on this planet anytime in the last 60 years.
I’m curious what you think we should do about that?
I prefer my niche of being obscene and not heard.
I prefer my niche of being obscene and not heard.
So, you are one of those who want to reban Ovid in the classroom? 😉
So, you are one of those who want to reban Ovid in the classroom? 😉
Well, I’ll let sapient and Marty incentivize each other. I’m too busy being stunned by this
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mississippi-state-flag-remove-confederate-battle-emblem/
Well, I’ll let sapient and Marty incentivize each other. I’m too busy being stunned by this
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mississippi-state-flag-remove-confederate-battle-emblem/
Marty, not sure whether you think that the killing of American servicemen at Putin’s direction is a conspiracy theory, or just another day of what has always been happening.
It’s okay, though. I’m done being incentivized.
Good news about the SC flag, of course.
Marty, not sure whether you think that the killing of American servicemen at Putin’s direction is a conspiracy theory, or just another day of what has always been happening.
It’s okay, though. I’m done being incentivized.
Good news about the SC flag, of course.
Mississippi, not SC. SC has a palmetto and a crescent moon. The mississippi flag was adopted in 1894. There have actually been several attempts, so this isn’t out of the blue, but the speed of this is pretty astonishing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Mississippi
Mississippi, not SC. SC has a palmetto and a crescent moon. The mississippi flag was adopted in 1894. There have actually been several attempts, so this isn’t out of the blue, but the speed of this is pretty astonishing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Mississippi
“I’m outraged at many things, mostly things that are facts.”
That’s what I call a sentence that can stand alone and mask-less without any interference from plexiglass facts.
Here’s a sticky fact to counter any residual sentimentality regarding the treatment of the Confederacy during the Civil War:
Jefferson Davis: “We are fighting for independence — and that, or extermination, we will have … You may emancipate every Negro in the Confederacy, but we will be free. We will govern ourselves .. if we have to see every plantation sacked … and every Southern city in flames….. (the war) must go on till the last man of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize his musket and fight his battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self-government.”*
Talk about being careful what facts you wish for.
“Anyone surprised that Russia pays people to kill US troops hasn’t been on this planet anytime in the last 60 years.”
America has a bargain with the rest of the world.
We pay to ship live soldiers overseas and we pay to ship them home in body bags and then try to cut corners putting them back together and keeping a roof over their heads if they by some Catch-22 break protocol and make it back alive with barely enough wits about them to get elected to national office and keep the process well-oiled and operative.
At least Russia and the rest of the world keep up their end of the bargain by taxing their own citizens in order to adequately pay others to kill our soldiers.
Plus, they observed our proxy assassin Osama Bin Laden work his wonders in Afghanistan against Russian troops back in the day.
America, where you can pay by proxy to buy votes through unmarked postal boxes, but you can’t vote by proxy or mail.
Russia and the rest of the world have long memories from which they learn, unlike amnesiac America, which is led by the factless to believe whatever we do here and abroad is exceptional in motive, if not follow-thru, and then relegated to yesterday, when all our troubles seemed so far away.
A simple switcheroo in drone technology utilization would go a long way to rectifying the situation:
If our drones overseas had instead been delivering beer and pizza to those overseas we wish to kill, and our domestic drones had been repurposed to deliver munitions with short fuses down the chimneys of Dick Cheney, Tom Cotton, Lindsay Graham, and John Bolton, among a cast of millions with different names that I’m sure Donald will supply shortly for our much-needed schooling ;), we’d wouldn’t be in this situation.
But someone would come up with a situation as bad or worse for us to be in instead, American innovation being what it is.
All of us are in this together.
Together, but a minimum of six feet apart so that we might not be forced into inhaling fatal facts from the now multiplying remnants of the Confederacy yet even now making a fetish of bogus liberties.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-28/hugos-tacos-closes-temporarily-citing-harassment-by-mask-averse-patrons.
It is apparently a civil liberty now to infect others with the plague.
That takes the cake, but not to a gay wedding apparently. Just down to the bakery to visit the other cakes.
A fatal virus is now protected by the dubious originalist fact of the Second Amendment.
Some justifiably claim “I can’t breath”.
Others proclaim “I won’t prevent my breathing and talking from possibly killing you. And the only way I’m taking a knee is to stop you from breathing.
America might be the first civilization felled by a terrible collective (if you’ll pardon my French) case of mass halitosis.
*Hymns of the Republic: The Story of the Final Year of the American Civil War by S.C. Gwynne
One hell of a read.
The seemingly disparate elements of this comment hang together if you fashion the noose the correct way. If you figure it out, let me know.
PS. Ban COvid, not Ovid.
PPS: Juanita Jean is a native of Texas, where the facts are free range and organic and cooked to order. And frequently inconvenient the higher up you go.
It’s Monday morning and I’ve used up my word quota for the week, he promised with unmitigated Charles de Gaulle.
“I’m outraged at many things, mostly things that are facts.”
That’s what I call a sentence that can stand alone and mask-less without any interference from plexiglass facts.
Here’s a sticky fact to counter any residual sentimentality regarding the treatment of the Confederacy during the Civil War:
Jefferson Davis: “We are fighting for independence — and that, or extermination, we will have … You may emancipate every Negro in the Confederacy, but we will be free. We will govern ourselves .. if we have to see every plantation sacked … and every Southern city in flames….. (the war) must go on till the last man of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize his musket and fight his battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self-government.”*
Talk about being careful what facts you wish for.
“Anyone surprised that Russia pays people to kill US troops hasn’t been on this planet anytime in the last 60 years.”
America has a bargain with the rest of the world.
We pay to ship live soldiers overseas and we pay to ship them home in body bags and then try to cut corners putting them back together and keeping a roof over their heads if they by some Catch-22 break protocol and make it back alive with barely enough wits about them to get elected to national office and keep the process well-oiled and operative.
At least Russia and the rest of the world keep up their end of the bargain by taxing their own citizens in order to adequately pay others to kill our soldiers.
Plus, they observed our proxy assassin Osama Bin Laden work his wonders in Afghanistan against Russian troops back in the day.
America, where you can pay by proxy to buy votes through unmarked postal boxes, but you can’t vote by proxy or mail.
Russia and the rest of the world have long memories from which they learn, unlike amnesiac America, which is led by the factless to believe whatever we do here and abroad is exceptional in motive, if not follow-thru, and then relegated to yesterday, when all our troubles seemed so far away.
A simple switcheroo in drone technology utilization would go a long way to rectifying the situation:
If our drones overseas had instead been delivering beer and pizza to those overseas we wish to kill, and our domestic drones had been repurposed to deliver munitions with short fuses down the chimneys of Dick Cheney, Tom Cotton, Lindsay Graham, and John Bolton, among a cast of millions with different names that I’m sure Donald will supply shortly for our much-needed schooling ;), we’d wouldn’t be in this situation.
But someone would come up with a situation as bad or worse for us to be in instead, American innovation being what it is.
All of us are in this together.
Together, but a minimum of six feet apart so that we might not be forced into inhaling fatal facts from the now multiplying remnants of the Confederacy yet even now making a fetish of bogus liberties.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-28/hugos-tacos-closes-temporarily-citing-harassment-by-mask-averse-patrons.
It is apparently a civil liberty now to infect others with the plague.
That takes the cake, but not to a gay wedding apparently. Just down to the bakery to visit the other cakes.
A fatal virus is now protected by the dubious originalist fact of the Second Amendment.
Some justifiably claim “I can’t breath”.
Others proclaim “I won’t prevent my breathing and talking from possibly killing you. And the only way I’m taking a knee is to stop you from breathing.
America might be the first civilization felled by a terrible collective (if you’ll pardon my French) case of mass halitosis.
*Hymns of the Republic: The Story of the Final Year of the American Civil War by S.C. Gwynne
One hell of a read.
The seemingly disparate elements of this comment hang together if you fashion the noose the correct way. If you figure it out, let me know.
PS. Ban COvid, not Ovid.
PPS: Juanita Jean is a native of Texas, where the facts are free range and organic and cooked to order. And frequently inconvenient the higher up you go.
It’s Monday morning and I’ve used up my word quota for the week, he promised with unmitigated Charles de Gaulle.
The palmetto and crescent is sacred to a bizarre degree in SC. I don’t know of another state whose citizens revere their state flag as much as my home state. I daresay that more SC school children know the history of the state flag as compared to the US flag.
Of course, we had the unique distinction of actually flying the Confederate Battle Flag (which South Carolina troops did not fight under during the Civil War and is mostly associated with the army of Northern Virginia) as a third flag above the state house dome for about 40 years. That embarrassment was somewhat mitigated in 2005 when the flag was removed to a Confederate monument on the state house grounds and finally fixed in 2015 when it was removed altogether in the wake of the Charleston church shooting.
The palmetto and crescent is sacred to a bizarre degree in SC. I don’t know of another state whose citizens revere their state flag as much as my home state. I daresay that more SC school children know the history of the state flag as compared to the US flag.
Of course, we had the unique distinction of actually flying the Confederate Battle Flag (which South Carolina troops did not fight under during the Civil War and is mostly associated with the army of Northern Virginia) as a third flag above the state house dome for about 40 years. That embarrassment was somewhat mitigated in 2005 when the flag was removed to a Confederate monument on the state house grounds and finally fixed in 2015 when it was removed altogether in the wake of the Charleston church shooting.
That embarrassment was somewhat mitigated in 2005 when the flag was removed to a Confederate monument on the state house grounds and finally fixed in 2015 when it was removed altogether in the wake of the Charleston church shooting.
The source of my confusion, I think. Interesting about the reverence for the SC state flag.
That embarrassment was somewhat mitigated in 2005 when the flag was removed to a Confederate monument on the state house grounds and finally fixed in 2015 when it was removed altogether in the wake of the Charleston church shooting.
The source of my confusion, I think. Interesting about the reverence for the SC state flag.
Wasn’t there some storm in a teapot discussion about the SC flag some years ago because some RW idiot mistook it for islamist?
Or was it just 100% satire?
Wasn’t there some storm in a teapot discussion about the SC flag some years ago because some RW idiot mistook it for islamist?
Or was it just 100% satire?
Anyone surprised that Russia pays people to kill US troops hasnt been on this planet anytime in the last 60 years.
Whether it’s surprising is beside the point. Knowing that Russia would be willing to do something of this nature is different from knowing with certainty that they actually did it. I guess you think no response is required, at least while Trump (or any Republican?) is in office. I imagine a different reaction if this came out during the Obama presidency.
Anyone surprised that Russia pays people to kill US troops hasnt been on this planet anytime in the last 60 years.
Whether it’s surprising is beside the point. Knowing that Russia would be willing to do something of this nature is different from knowing with certainty that they actually did it. I guess you think no response is required, at least while Trump (or any Republican?) is in office. I imagine a different reaction if this came out during the Obama presidency.
I imagine a different reaction if this came out during the Obama presidency.
oh indeed.
how many Benghazi’s does this add up to?
I imagine a different reaction if this came out during the Obama presidency.
oh indeed.
how many Benghazi’s does this add up to?
I’m curious what you think we should do about that?pretty good answer for that over on Balloon Juice.
Adam Silverman provides a
IMO Silverman is a pretty credible guy. Or, perhaps he’s just another emasculated civil servant.
Make of it what you will.
I’m curious what you think we should do about that?pretty good answer for that over on Balloon Juice.
Adam Silverman provides a
IMO Silverman is a pretty credible guy. Or, perhaps he’s just another emasculated civil servant.
Make of it what you will.
Wasn’t there some storm in a teapot discussion about the SC flag some years ago because some RW idiot mistook it for islamist?
No, that was the 9/11 memorial in Shanksville PA.
Crescent shaped when viewed from above. Right?
Wake up, sheeple!!
Wasn’t there some storm in a teapot discussion about the SC flag some years ago because some RW idiot mistook it for islamist?
No, that was the 9/11 memorial in Shanksville PA.
Crescent shaped when viewed from above. Right?
Wake up, sheeple!!
apologies, here is Silverman’s piece.
apologies, here is Silverman’s piece.
More from Silverman on the (latest) Russia thing.
And yes, Marty, we know you think Trump is an incompetent ass and you would never vote for him. He’s just the sh*t sandwich you will happily tolerate for the tax cuts, deregulation, and judges.
More from Silverman on the (latest) Russia thing.
And yes, Marty, we know you think Trump is an incompetent ass and you would never vote for him. He’s just the sh*t sandwich you will happily tolerate for the tax cuts, deregulation, and judges.
The Politico piece was interesting anecdata, but to the extent those kinds of articles are supposed to represent broad thinking among [who, exactly?] wealthy black people in exclusive Michigan suburbs? wealthy people? black people? Michigan? it’s not necessarily “valuable.” Because what do we do about it?
I’m not sure you’re supposed to ‘do’ anything about it.
It is reportage, not advocacy, and I think it mistaken to try and universalise any kind of message from it. Except perhaps that ‘black voters’ are not a monolith, which seems to have been the default assumption of a large number of political commentators for quite some time.
Life is complicated, and assuming that groups of people we aren’t familiar with aren’t complicated is foolish.
Also, what hairshirt. said.
intersectionality alert!
I almost wrote something to that effect, knowing what a nasty, phony concept some people think it
It’s actually a very simple concept with a horrible sounding name.
A problem with much academic language, perhaps ?
The Politico piece was interesting anecdata, but to the extent those kinds of articles are supposed to represent broad thinking among [who, exactly?] wealthy black people in exclusive Michigan suburbs? wealthy people? black people? Michigan? it’s not necessarily “valuable.” Because what do we do about it?
I’m not sure you’re supposed to ‘do’ anything about it.
It is reportage, not advocacy, and I think it mistaken to try and universalise any kind of message from it. Except perhaps that ‘black voters’ are not a monolith, which seems to have been the default assumption of a large number of political commentators for quite some time.
Life is complicated, and assuming that groups of people we aren’t familiar with aren’t complicated is foolish.
Also, what hairshirt. said.
intersectionality alert!
I almost wrote something to that effect, knowing what a nasty, phony concept some people think it
It’s actually a very simple concept with a horrible sounding name.
A problem with much academic language, perhaps ?
https://www.businessinsider.com/mike-pence-dallas-megachurch-choir-no-masks-coronavirus-spike-texas-2020-6
Preaching to the choir?
https://www.businessinsider.com/mike-pence-dallas-megachurch-choir-no-masks-coronavirus-spike-texas-2020-6
Preaching to the choir?
russell, I would not do any of those things, I would privately tell them to stop, and I would conclude the mission of getting us out of Afghanistan.
The problem with Adam’s soutions is that none of them can successfully stop what is going on and with each step we end up deploying more troops.
Ultimately, as has always been true, we would have to occupy and hold land that is the home of generations of guerilla fighters, without much support from the locals.
So, we use more troops which ends up requiring more troops, which reverses our basic goal of exiting. That seems like bad policy.
russell, I would not do any of those things, I would privately tell them to stop, and I would conclude the mission of getting us out of Afghanistan.
The problem with Adam’s soutions is that none of them can successfully stop what is going on and with each step we end up deploying more troops.
Ultimately, as has always been true, we would have to occupy and hold land that is the home of generations of guerilla fighters, without much support from the locals.
So, we use more troops which ends up requiring more troops, which reverses our basic goal of exiting. That seems like bad policy.
The Silverman pieces are excellent. Thanks.
I’m not sure you’re supposed to ‘do’ anything about it.
Addressing concerns of voters (identifying solutions) is what political activists want to do about it.
Except perhaps that ‘black voters’ are not a monolith, which seems to have been the default assumption of a large number of political commentators for quite some time.
Some political commentators tend to think in demographic terms, basing commentary and predictions on such data. In some cases, that analysis is justified. For example, African-American women have turned out in large numbers in recent years, and made a concerted effort (working with other activists) to make a difference. This effort has turned Virginia blue. And the result is a more diverse state house, where real representation, not just lip service, is happening.
The Silverman pieces are excellent. Thanks.
I’m not sure you’re supposed to ‘do’ anything about it.
Addressing concerns of voters (identifying solutions) is what political activists want to do about it.
Except perhaps that ‘black voters’ are not a monolith, which seems to have been the default assumption of a large number of political commentators for quite some time.
Some political commentators tend to think in demographic terms, basing commentary and predictions on such data. In some cases, that analysis is justified. For example, African-American women have turned out in large numbers in recent years, and made a concerted effort (working with other activists) to make a difference. This effort has turned Virginia blue. And the result is a more diverse state house, where real representation, not just lip service, is happening.
Cleek— Okay, no,problem. If limited to foreign policy I embrace it. Unfortunately, as LJ pointed out, there is another Donald with more name recognition than me.
Russell—
I thought the Adam Silverman piece was really bad.
Let me start with the cheap easy point first, In what universe is it a good idea to encourage Trump to be more militaristic? Here we have people talking about the disgusting idiot as a danger to everything, but then liberals sometimes criticize him for not being tougher, This is not some minor point, Fortunately, for whatever set of reasons, Trump has backed down with North Korea and Iran at least part of the time. He is also inconsistent with Russia. It’s the Saudis and Israelis that seem to have him in their pocket most of the time.
Second, with any President, going to war over Crimea would be stupid. If people think otherwise then maybe the Resistance at McCain’s funeral should have performed some Satanic ritual., resurrected his corpse, and put him in the White House, We’d have all the toughness we could handle.
Third, many Americans, including a great many liberals, go around with the subconscious assumption that we own the planet, They would deny it, but the way they talk and the policies they advocate make no sense unless we run the world as an empire. We killed Russians in Syria— some people think the killing in Afghanistan was revenge. We engage in so many low level wars there probably isn’t one American in a hundred who can keep track of all the countries that we bomb. I couldn’t name them off the top of my head, We regularly pour weapons into armed conflicts. We impose extremely harsh sanctions on countries which hurt ordinary people and it’s not even an issue. And, oh yes, we invaded Iraq and probably caused half a million deaths or more.
Do people think other countries should react to us the way Silverman suggests we react to Putin? What are the rules?
If you don’t want Americans killed in Afghanistan, pull them out. If people want to blame Presidents for the deaths of American soldiers there, you could start with Bush, then Obama, and now Trump.
I hesitate to say what a normal President should have done in this situation because we shouldn’t have troops still fighting in Afghanistan and because normal Presidents are war criminals, but I suppose what should be done is that Biden would call Putin up and say that deliberate direct targeting of each other’s forces is breaking the laws of decorum that should govern our proxy wars. Tell them we could accidentally kill some more Russians in Syria like we did a year or two ago.. I am not recommending this— I am just saying that as two heads of their respective global crime families they could establish rules about who gets to kill whom. Silverman seems to think like this, but in a more hotheaded way. I never watched The Godfather movies all the way through, so I don’t have a character I could compare him to.
Cleek— Okay, no,problem. If limited to foreign policy I embrace it. Unfortunately, as LJ pointed out, there is another Donald with more name recognition than me.
Russell—
I thought the Adam Silverman piece was really bad.
Let me start with the cheap easy point first, In what universe is it a good idea to encourage Trump to be more militaristic? Here we have people talking about the disgusting idiot as a danger to everything, but then liberals sometimes criticize him for not being tougher, This is not some minor point, Fortunately, for whatever set of reasons, Trump has backed down with North Korea and Iran at least part of the time. He is also inconsistent with Russia. It’s the Saudis and Israelis that seem to have him in their pocket most of the time.
Second, with any President, going to war over Crimea would be stupid. If people think otherwise then maybe the Resistance at McCain’s funeral should have performed some Satanic ritual., resurrected his corpse, and put him in the White House, We’d have all the toughness we could handle.
Third, many Americans, including a great many liberals, go around with the subconscious assumption that we own the planet, They would deny it, but the way they talk and the policies they advocate make no sense unless we run the world as an empire. We killed Russians in Syria— some people think the killing in Afghanistan was revenge. We engage in so many low level wars there probably isn’t one American in a hundred who can keep track of all the countries that we bomb. I couldn’t name them off the top of my head, We regularly pour weapons into armed conflicts. We impose extremely harsh sanctions on countries which hurt ordinary people and it’s not even an issue. And, oh yes, we invaded Iraq and probably caused half a million deaths or more.
Do people think other countries should react to us the way Silverman suggests we react to Putin? What are the rules?
If you don’t want Americans killed in Afghanistan, pull them out. If people want to blame Presidents for the deaths of American soldiers there, you could start with Bush, then Obama, and now Trump.
I hesitate to say what a normal President should have done in this situation because we shouldn’t have troops still fighting in Afghanistan and because normal Presidents are war criminals, but I suppose what should be done is that Biden would call Putin up and say that deliberate direct targeting of each other’s forces is breaking the laws of decorum that should govern our proxy wars. Tell them we could accidentally kill some more Russians in Syria like we did a year or two ago.. I am not recommending this— I am just saying that as two heads of their respective global crime families they could establish rules about who gets to kill whom. Silverman seems to think like this, but in a more hotheaded way. I never watched The Godfather movies all the way through, so I don’t have a character I could compare him to.
If it’s a hothead you’re after, Sonny Corleone is your guy.
If it’s a hothead you’re after, Sonny Corleone is your guy.
“ I am just saying that as two heads of their respective global crime families they could establish rules about who gets to kill whom. “
If Bernie were President I think he would face exactly the same problem and get most of the same criticism. He would have inherited our ongoing Forever Wars and would constantly be criticized as weak and pathetic and say, didn’t he honeymoon in the old USSR? There would be a great deal of pressure on him to be “ tough”. To the extent he succumbed, his “ cultists” like myself would have ripped into him.
With Trump the foreign policy is almost pure chaos, but a lot of pro- interventionist types clearly hate him for what I would consider bad reasons. There are countless good reasons to hate Trump, but the bad ones often seem to get too much attention.
“ I am just saying that as two heads of their respective global crime families they could establish rules about who gets to kill whom. “
If Bernie were President I think he would face exactly the same problem and get most of the same criticism. He would have inherited our ongoing Forever Wars and would constantly be criticized as weak and pathetic and say, didn’t he honeymoon in the old USSR? There would be a great deal of pressure on him to be “ tough”. To the extent he succumbed, his “ cultists” like myself would have ripped into him.
With Trump the foreign policy is almost pure chaos, but a lot of pro- interventionist types clearly hate him for what I would consider bad reasons. There are countless good reasons to hate Trump, but the bad ones often seem to get too much attention.
russell, I would not do any of those things, I would privately tell them to stop, and I would conclude the mission of getting us out of Afghanistan.
*****
If you don’t want Americans killed in Afghanistan, pull them out.
And there it is, the convergence. Marty and Donald in accord.
Personally, I laughed at the idea of privately “telling them (Putin) to stop”. Perhaps you had to have had Russian agents strolling around a quiet cathedral town before openly poisoning various enemies and innocent bystanders, to laugh in quite the same way. And even our useless leader at the time had the guts to call them out publicly, and make an international incident out of it.
russell, I would not do any of those things, I would privately tell them to stop, and I would conclude the mission of getting us out of Afghanistan.
*****
If you don’t want Americans killed in Afghanistan, pull them out.
And there it is, the convergence. Marty and Donald in accord.
Personally, I laughed at the idea of privately “telling them (Putin) to stop”. Perhaps you had to have had Russian agents strolling around a quiet cathedral town before openly poisoning various enemies and innocent bystanders, to laugh in quite the same way. And even our useless leader at the time had the guts to call them out publicly, and make an international incident out of it.
I didnt say they would stop, but most threats are better delivered in private. They seem more sincere and dont require the person being threatened to save face.
Public flogging has limited usefulness outside of political theater.
I didnt say they would stop, but most threats are better delivered in private. They seem more sincere and dont require the person being threatened to save face.
Public flogging has limited usefulness outside of political theater.
Besides, your quiet cathedral town isnt the same as killing of copying troops in a war zone.
Besides, your quiet cathedral town isnt the same as killing of copying troops in a war zone.
God, guns, money, ethics panels, capri pants, throw in a little day drinking for fortification, and what you end up with is two privileged while jackasses somehow not being gunned down, probably shot in the back, the two of them, by law enforcement as they threaten deadly force against those walking and carrying Skittles while black and/or intersectional.
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/06/see-if-you-can-guess-what-this-power-couple-does-for-a-living
I love that “it is unclear whether the guns were loaded.”
For sure, the attorneys were loaded.
What conservative white person would pause to ponder that question in the heat of the moment without immediately reacting with deadly force?
BLM: Our people are unarmed but shot down anyway.
Cops and Conservatives: Yes, but they were loaded.
BLM: What were?
Cops and Conservatives: The guns they weren’t carrying.
God, guns, money, ethics panels, capri pants, throw in a little day drinking for fortification, and what you end up with is two privileged while jackasses somehow not being gunned down, probably shot in the back, the two of them, by law enforcement as they threaten deadly force against those walking and carrying Skittles while black and/or intersectional.
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/06/see-if-you-can-guess-what-this-power-couple-does-for-a-living
I love that “it is unclear whether the guns were loaded.”
For sure, the attorneys were loaded.
What conservative white person would pause to ponder that question in the heat of the moment without immediately reacting with deadly force?
BLM: Our people are unarmed but shot down anyway.
Cops and Conservatives: Yes, but they were loaded.
BLM: What were?
Cops and Conservatives: The guns they weren’t carrying.
The point about the quiet cathedral town is that Putin has been getting, and will get, more and more enabled to do whatever the hell he wants unless somebody with some actual clout (the big stick) makes a serious fuss about it. Clearly, Donald “he told me he didn’t do it” “I was never briefed about this” “I don’t trust my intelligence services” Trump is not that somebody.
The point about the quiet cathedral town is that Putin has been getting, and will get, more and more enabled to do whatever the hell he wants unless somebody with some actual clout (the big stick) makes a serious fuss about it. Clearly, Donald “he told me he didn’t do it” “I was never briefed about this” “I don’t trust my intelligence services” Trump is not that somebody.
I have a long comment from early this morning stuck somewhere.
If not, that’s OK.
I have a long comment from early this morning stuck somewhere.
If not, that’s OK.
Thanks, GftNC, for both of your comments this morning.
Thanks, GftNC, for both of your comments this morning.
“ Perhaps you had to have had Russian agents strolling around a quiet cathedral town before openly poisoning various enemies and innocent bystanders, to laugh in quite the same way. ”
There it is. This type of argument was nonstop in 2001-2003.
Actually, I have literally smelled the aftermath where 3000 Americans were murdered. Like a great many people I volunteered one night to serve soup to the guys doing the cleanup. And I opposed the invasion of Afghanistan. I have no problem rejecting your apparent notion that one has to live near a place where a murder or a few thousand murders occurred before rejecting a solution that just adds to the bloodshed, because I don’t think it is in the least bit relevant. I could have been living in Iowa on 9/11. Living in the suburbs of NYC instead adds nothing to my position. Not one damn thing, which is why I only bring it up when someone plays this card.
Your country like mine is soaking in the blood of innocents and they don’t have to live in cathedral towns or NYC to be innocent.
Putin is a nasty piece of work, but apparently both Amercans and Brits have this idea that his crimes merit a violent response. How about ours?
And this is why, if we ever to have a President or Prime Minister who wants to end our forever wars it is going to be difficult, because there will continue to be overwhelming pressure from people who assume that our crimes are mistakes at worst and their crimes are crimes.
I am out of here for awhile, I don’t like DiAngelo’s style, but I don’t deny the the phenomenon she describes is real— privileged people deny their privilege. It is beyond obvious. But rather than navel gaze about a universal human tendency it makes more sense to me to point out actual policies and double standards that need to be changed.
Marty and I disagree on some of this, I suspect, but I think we both agree that we should be pulling out of Afghanistan.
“ Perhaps you had to have had Russian agents strolling around a quiet cathedral town before openly poisoning various enemies and innocent bystanders, to laugh in quite the same way. ”
There it is. This type of argument was nonstop in 2001-2003.
Actually, I have literally smelled the aftermath where 3000 Americans were murdered. Like a great many people I volunteered one night to serve soup to the guys doing the cleanup. And I opposed the invasion of Afghanistan. I have no problem rejecting your apparent notion that one has to live near a place where a murder or a few thousand murders occurred before rejecting a solution that just adds to the bloodshed, because I don’t think it is in the least bit relevant. I could have been living in Iowa on 9/11. Living in the suburbs of NYC instead adds nothing to my position. Not one damn thing, which is why I only bring it up when someone plays this card.
Your country like mine is soaking in the blood of innocents and they don’t have to live in cathedral towns or NYC to be innocent.
Putin is a nasty piece of work, but apparently both Amercans and Brits have this idea that his crimes merit a violent response. How about ours?
And this is why, if we ever to have a President or Prime Minister who wants to end our forever wars it is going to be difficult, because there will continue to be overwhelming pressure from people who assume that our crimes are mistakes at worst and their crimes are crimes.
I am out of here for awhile, I don’t like DiAngelo’s style, but I don’t deny the the phenomenon she describes is real— privileged people deny their privilege. It is beyond obvious. But rather than navel gaze about a universal human tendency it makes more sense to me to point out actual policies and double standards that need to be changed.
Marty and I disagree on some of this, I suspect, but I think we both agree that we should be pulling out of Afghanistan.
Thullen comment liberated from Spam folder. Now above at 8:44 AM
Thullen comment liberated from Spam folder. Now above at 8:44 AM
I’d say that what we should do about the whole Putin thing is to loudly reaffirm our multilateral agreements with our allies and cause as much holy hell with Putin’s et al’s pipelines and frozen assets to give him a bad rash.
What we should not do, with this or any other diplomatic, international problem is to attempt to hump every other head of state individually in alphabetical order to show everyone else who is boss. Unfortunately…
I’d say that what we should do about the whole Putin thing is to loudly reaffirm our multilateral agreements with our allies and cause as much holy hell with Putin’s et al’s pipelines and frozen assets to give him a bad rash.
What we should not do, with this or any other diplomatic, international problem is to attempt to hump every other head of state individually in alphabetical order to show everyone else who is boss. Unfortunately…
Btw, here is the sort of thing I would like to see more of. Putin, Trump, Obama, Bush— put warrants out on all of them.
https://twitter.com/yarbatman/status/1277599238172672000
The value of this becoming a common thing would be to get people talking about what the rule of law actually means when people are murdered, though admittedly the Iranian general wouldn’t be at the top of my list of sympathetic victims. But we all know America would go nuts if an American official was assassinated.
So put a warrant out for Putin.
Btw, here is the sort of thing I would like to see more of. Putin, Trump, Obama, Bush— put warrants out on all of them.
https://twitter.com/yarbatman/status/1277599238172672000
The value of this becoming a common thing would be to get people talking about what the rule of law actually means when people are murdered, though admittedly the Iranian general wouldn’t be at the top of my list of sympathetic victims. But we all know America would go nuts if an American official was assassinated.
So put a warrant out for Putin.
But we all know America would go nuts if an American official was assassinated.
Kinda depend on whether Trump had been calling him (incorrectly, both as a matter of law and as a matter of fact) a traitor.
But we all know America would go nuts if an American official was assassinated.
Kinda depend on whether Trump had been calling him (incorrectly, both as a matter of law and as a matter of fact) a traitor.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Your country like mine is soaking in the blood of innocents and they don’t have to live in cathedral towns or NYC to be innocent.
Putin is a nasty piece of work, but apparently both Amercans and Brits have this idea that his crimes merit a violent response. How about ours?
You know Donald, I have a lot of respect for you and your positions, as I have made clear, but your self-righteousness gets tiring sometimes, presumably even more for you than for some of us. I do not in any way deny the malefactions of either of our countries, but nor do I feel the need to repeat this ad infinitum. I do not feel my proximity to Salisbury gives me more standing to deplore Putin than anybody else, but it gave me standing to laugh at the idea that talking to him privately would accomplish anything. Nor am I suggesting “a solution that just adds to the bloodshed”. You are setting up a straw man; the point of carrying a big stick is that you don’t have to use it. Putin is extremely vulnerable to things other than force, as nous suggests @ 12.57, and threatening him with them convincingly (if you can find any remaining decent diplomats) would avoid any violence.
Your country like mine is soaking in the blood of innocents and they don’t have to live in cathedral towns or NYC to be innocent.
Putin is a nasty piece of work, but apparently both Amercans and Brits have this idea that his crimes merit a violent response. How about ours?
You know Donald, I have a lot of respect for you and your positions, as I have made clear, but your self-righteousness gets tiring sometimes, presumably even more for you than for some of us. I do not in any way deny the malefactions of either of our countries, but nor do I feel the need to repeat this ad infinitum. I do not feel my proximity to Salisbury gives me more standing to deplore Putin than anybody else, but it gave me standing to laugh at the idea that talking to him privately would accomplish anything. Nor am I suggesting “a solution that just adds to the bloodshed”. You are setting up a straw man; the point of carrying a big stick is that you don’t have to use it. Putin is extremely vulnerable to things other than force, as nous suggests @ 12.57, and threatening him with them convincingly (if you can find any remaining decent diplomats) would avoid any violence.
I do not feel my proximity to Salisbury gives me more standing to deplore Putin than anybody else, but it gave me standing to laugh at the idea that talking to him privately would accomplish anything.
It would work about as well (especially coming from Trump) as Trump being impeached but not removed chastened him.
I do not feel my proximity to Salisbury gives me more standing to deplore Putin than anybody else, but it gave me standing to laugh at the idea that talking to him privately would accomplish anything.
It would work about as well (especially coming from Trump) as Trump being impeached but not removed chastened him.
but I think we both agree that we should be pulling out of Afghanistan.
put me on that list, too. i’m on the “thought getting involved there was a terrible idea in the first place” list, already.
but I think we both agree that we should be pulling out of Afghanistan.
put me on that list, too. i’m on the “thought getting involved there was a terrible idea in the first place” list, already.
I’m too busy being stunned by this
At least it’s a happy kind of stunned. Not a lot of that going around these days.
I’m too busy being stunned by this
At least it’s a happy kind of stunned. Not a lot of that going around these days.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-jaw-dropping-calls-with-foreign-leaders-threaten-national-security-cnn-report-claims-2020-06-29?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
America may never recover from this travesty.
Especially as we withdraw from nuclear weapons treaties.
We are a depraved civilization, by choice.
We elected to do this, to place an ignorant, corrupt crypto-religious death cult in charge of this country’s affairs and future.
These choices require and demand punishment that has no precedent in our history.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-jaw-dropping-calls-with-foreign-leaders-threaten-national-security-cnn-report-claims-2020-06-29?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
America may never recover from this travesty.
Especially as we withdraw from nuclear weapons treaties.
We are a depraved civilization, by choice.
We elected to do this, to place an ignorant, corrupt crypto-religious death cult in charge of this country’s affairs and future.
These choices require and demand punishment that has no precedent in our history.
Of course the USA has no standing to complain about the murder of troops in Afghanistan, having spent many years sponsoring Islamic terrorists to that end.
However, if the US and Russia are going to maintain armies in conflict zones overseas, it would be good for both of them to agree not to seek the murder of each other’s soldiers. That’s just the sort of deal which Obama would secretly make. It wouldn’t occur to Trump because he doesn’t care, and he couldn’t make the deal anyway because Putin knows what sort of person he is.
Of course the USA has no standing to complain about the murder of troops in Afghanistan, having spent many years sponsoring Islamic terrorists to that end.
However, if the US and Russia are going to maintain armies in conflict zones overseas, it would be good for both of them to agree not to seek the murder of each other’s soldiers. That’s just the sort of deal which Obama would secretly make. It wouldn’t occur to Trump because he doesn’t care, and he couldn’t make the deal anyway because Putin knows what sort of person he is.
The Republican Christian death cult, voting by mail, and constant testing for their elite populist asses while forcing disease on their animal herds:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/6/29/1956926/-Over-80-of-Republican-state-lawmakers-in-Wisconsin-voted-by-mail-while-forcing-others-to-the-polls
The Republican Christian death cult, voting by mail, and constant testing for their elite populist asses while forcing disease on their animal herds:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/6/29/1956926/-Over-80-of-Republican-state-lawmakers-in-Wisconsin-voted-by-mail-while-forcing-others-to-the-polls
Sorry the Silverman pieces didn’t suit.
Personally, I have no idea what response we should have made to the report of Russia paying people to kill American soldiers. I’m also not shocked that the Russians would pay people to kill American soldiers.
I’m not even shocked by Trump’s asinine and half-assed public response to it all. I can’t imagine being shocked by anything Trump says or does at this point.
It’s not shocking, just profoundly dispiriting.
I also recognize that nation-states are frequently bad actors. What distinguishes Russia under Putin is that it’s basically a nation-state as a corrupt criminal enterprise.
And I guess my question for Donald is, are there any situations where military action is justifiable? Because no matter who’s involved, a lot of innocent people get killed.
Sorry the Silverman pieces didn’t suit.
Personally, I have no idea what response we should have made to the report of Russia paying people to kill American soldiers. I’m also not shocked that the Russians would pay people to kill American soldiers.
I’m not even shocked by Trump’s asinine and half-assed public response to it all. I can’t imagine being shocked by anything Trump says or does at this point.
It’s not shocking, just profoundly dispiriting.
I also recognize that nation-states are frequently bad actors. What distinguishes Russia under Putin is that it’s basically a nation-state as a corrupt criminal enterprise.
And I guess my question for Donald is, are there any situations where military action is justifiable? Because no matter who’s involved, a lot of innocent people get killed.
What distinguishes Russia under Putin is that it’s basically a nation-state as a corrupt criminal enterprise.
But perhaps Russia won’t be distinguished this way forever. Give Trump another four years, and the US may be successfully reduced to a corrupt criminal enterprise as well.
What distinguishes Russia under Putin is that it’s basically a nation-state as a corrupt criminal enterprise.
But perhaps Russia won’t be distinguished this way forever. Give Trump another four years, and the US may be successfully reduced to a corrupt criminal enterprise as well.
“ You know Donald, I have a lot of respect for you and your positions, as I have made clear, but your self-righteousness gets tiring sometimes, presumably even more for you than for some of us. I do not in any way deny the malefactions of either of our countries, but nor do I feel the need to repeat this ad infinitum.”
On self- righteousness, I get tired of repeating the obvious. It is rather like BLM. When do people start taking the issue seriously? I don’t take it seriously enough either. Blog comments are frivolous. But on the personal level you are the one who made the personal attack, trying to smear Marty cooties all over me. In this case I partly agree with Marty, so the cooties don’t bother me, but it was obvious you were intentionally snide and invoking your local connection as though it was relevant and as if I might think differently if I lived where you do. Nope.
As for ad infinitum, most websites, this one included, have an ideology of some sort and a set of points to make that they repeat ad infinitum. This blog has a bunch of people and not one blogger, but it is basically liberal. The places that I feel ideologically closest to continually talk about American and Western intervention in a very uncomplimentary way and are very tiresome in their obsession about the people we murder. This blog is obsessive about Republican crimes and bad policies and just as with the sites I prefer, is very predictable in its responses.
So take this Afghanistan story, Anyone would know without reading it what sort of emphasis will be placed on the story by centrist libs and anyone would know without reading it the two slightly different reactions you are going to find on sites that are tiresomely self righteous about US intervention. In case you are curious, the two reactions are—
1. Question the validity of the claim given that we have to depend on intelligence agencies with people who might have their own agendas to push. And no, this doesn’t mean some Deep State conspiracy. People have mindsets and ideologies.
2. Accept the claim, either because one believes it or for the sake of argument, because even if true one can push back on all the taken for granted assumptions underlying the centrist liberal response.
But everybody goes on as infinitum. At other blogs I would be one of many all competing to say essentially the same thing in slightly different ways.
Btw, assuming the Russians are bribing the Taliban to do what they were already eager to do, I assume the motive was to get caught in hopes of triggering either an American overreaction or more of our political infighting. They will deny doing it of course. If we want them to be in a quagmire in Syria, they might want us to stay in our own quagmire.
It would not surprise me if some of the Steele dossier was invented and fed to him for the same reason.
“ You know Donald, I have a lot of respect for you and your positions, as I have made clear, but your self-righteousness gets tiring sometimes, presumably even more for you than for some of us. I do not in any way deny the malefactions of either of our countries, but nor do I feel the need to repeat this ad infinitum.”
On self- righteousness, I get tired of repeating the obvious. It is rather like BLM. When do people start taking the issue seriously? I don’t take it seriously enough either. Blog comments are frivolous. But on the personal level you are the one who made the personal attack, trying to smear Marty cooties all over me. In this case I partly agree with Marty, so the cooties don’t bother me, but it was obvious you were intentionally snide and invoking your local connection as though it was relevant and as if I might think differently if I lived where you do. Nope.
As for ad infinitum, most websites, this one included, have an ideology of some sort and a set of points to make that they repeat ad infinitum. This blog has a bunch of people and not one blogger, but it is basically liberal. The places that I feel ideologically closest to continually talk about American and Western intervention in a very uncomplimentary way and are very tiresome in their obsession about the people we murder. This blog is obsessive about Republican crimes and bad policies and just as with the sites I prefer, is very predictable in its responses.
So take this Afghanistan story, Anyone would know without reading it what sort of emphasis will be placed on the story by centrist libs and anyone would know without reading it the two slightly different reactions you are going to find on sites that are tiresomely self righteous about US intervention. In case you are curious, the two reactions are—
1. Question the validity of the claim given that we have to depend on intelligence agencies with people who might have their own agendas to push. And no, this doesn’t mean some Deep State conspiracy. People have mindsets and ideologies.
2. Accept the claim, either because one believes it or for the sake of argument, because even if true one can push back on all the taken for granted assumptions underlying the centrist liberal response.
But everybody goes on as infinitum. At other blogs I would be one of many all competing to say essentially the same thing in slightly different ways.
Btw, assuming the Russians are bribing the Taliban to do what they were already eager to do, I assume the motive was to get caught in hopes of triggering either an American overreaction or more of our political infighting. They will deny doing it of course. If we want them to be in a quagmire in Syria, they might want us to stay in our own quagmire.
It would not surprise me if some of the Steele dossier was invented and fed to him for the same reason.
“ for the same reason”
With the Steele dossier and whatever else happened in 2016, I think they found that just a little bit of trolling made us go nuts. Whoever thought of the pee tape story probably got a medal. I am just wildly speculating, of course, unlike everyone else.
“ for the same reason”
With the Steele dossier and whatever else happened in 2016, I think they found that just a little bit of trolling made us go nuts. Whoever thought of the pee tape story probably got a medal. I am just wildly speculating, of course, unlike everyone else.
two wrongs make a don’t care?
cool.
two wrongs make a don’t care?
cool.
Donald: Btw, assuming the Russians are bribing the Taliban to do what they were already eager to do, I assume the motive was to get caught in hopes of triggering either an American overreaction or more of our political infighting.
OK, Putin’s Russians could be as clever as all that. Why a plot to “trigger” or promote “infighting” would be any less evil than straight up suborning murder is unclear to me.
I don’t know if it can be found on the web, but I remember seeing video(tape) from 1979 or 1980 in which Zbigniew Brzezinski, then Jimmy Carter’s National Security Advisor, is addressing a group of mujahideen on a mountainside in Pakistan. “That land over there is your land,” he tells them, essentially exhorting them to go home and kill Russian soldiers. If I can remember that, so can Putin, I’m sure. Need we assume anything more than that?
One reason that 40-year-old memory has stuck in mind is that Zbig indulged in some god-bothering in his speech to the muj, though I can’t remember whether he invoked “Allah” or some more generic god. I remember being repulsed by it at the time in any case.
The poor Afghans have been pummeled by foreign invaders since at least Alexander the Great. What would a truly humanitarian policy toward them look like? I don’t know, because I don’t think Afghans are any more monolithic than any other nation. Some of them want women in burkas, some want them in school. Some want economic development, some want religious piety. Even if the “Great Powers” agreed to leave Afghans entirely to their own devices, some Afghans would suffer, at the hands of other Afghans. Whether Donald or the like-minded people he mentions would like that, I don’t know.
–TP
Donald: Btw, assuming the Russians are bribing the Taliban to do what they were already eager to do, I assume the motive was to get caught in hopes of triggering either an American overreaction or more of our political infighting.
OK, Putin’s Russians could be as clever as all that. Why a plot to “trigger” or promote “infighting” would be any less evil than straight up suborning murder is unclear to me.
I don’t know if it can be found on the web, but I remember seeing video(tape) from 1979 or 1980 in which Zbigniew Brzezinski, then Jimmy Carter’s National Security Advisor, is addressing a group of mujahideen on a mountainside in Pakistan. “That land over there is your land,” he tells them, essentially exhorting them to go home and kill Russian soldiers. If I can remember that, so can Putin, I’m sure. Need we assume anything more than that?
One reason that 40-year-old memory has stuck in mind is that Zbig indulged in some god-bothering in his speech to the muj, though I can’t remember whether he invoked “Allah” or some more generic god. I remember being repulsed by it at the time in any case.
The poor Afghans have been pummeled by foreign invaders since at least Alexander the Great. What would a truly humanitarian policy toward them look like? I don’t know, because I don’t think Afghans are any more monolithic than any other nation. Some of them want women in burkas, some want them in school. Some want economic development, some want religious piety. Even if the “Great Powers” agreed to leave Afghans entirely to their own devices, some Afghans would suffer, at the hands of other Afghans. Whether Donald or the like-minded people he mentions would like that, I don’t know.
–TP
You have misunderstood me: I did not make an attack, personal or otherwise, snide or otherwise. I observed (as has been observed before) that on certain issues the right of centre right and the left of centre left converge, and that we were seeing one such issue. I don’t think Marty has cooties, metaphorical or of any kind, and I was not smearing you. I have disengaged from political argument with Marty for the present, and it seems wise perhaps to do the same with you. Your point about the repetitive tropes in various locations is well-taken, and your knee-jerk assumptions that you always know what people are really saying is no doubt part of the same phenomenon. You do not know what I am really saying, just as once you assumed I did not sufficiently condemn the US-Saudi relationship, and the war in Yemen, until I spelt it out for you. Self-righteousness and mistaken certainties of omniscience are, as I implied before, too tiring (and tiresome) for the present, difficult times.
You have misunderstood me: I did not make an attack, personal or otherwise, snide or otherwise. I observed (as has been observed before) that on certain issues the right of centre right and the left of centre left converge, and that we were seeing one such issue. I don’t think Marty has cooties, metaphorical or of any kind, and I was not smearing you. I have disengaged from political argument with Marty for the present, and it seems wise perhaps to do the same with you. Your point about the repetitive tropes in various locations is well-taken, and your knee-jerk assumptions that you always know what people are really saying is no doubt part of the same phenomenon. You do not know what I am really saying, just as once you assumed I did not sufficiently condemn the US-Saudi relationship, and the war in Yemen, until I spelt it out for you. Self-righteousness and mistaken certainties of omniscience are, as I implied before, too tiring (and tiresome) for the present, difficult times.
I should perhaps have spelt it out, Donald. As you did with the Applebaum piece, I now say: that’s the end of this discussion wit you, at least from my side.
I should perhaps have spelt it out, Donald. As you did with the Applebaum piece, I now say: that’s the end of this discussion wit you, at least from my side.
If we want to talk about the wrongness of Russia paying people to kill Americans, then we also need to talk about the wrongness of the United States arming Afghan mujahideen to kill Russians in the late 70’s and 80’s. We wanted to bleed them, to “make it their Vietnam”. That started under the sainted Jimmy Carter, and continued under Reagan.
Right?
You can pick any country on the planet and find dirt. The US, probably more than average, because we see ourselves as the global champions of our model of governance and therefore allow ourselves certain “liberties” in how we engage with the world.
Nation-states are not virtuous. They are sovereign actors with very little to constrain them.
We overthrew your government. We assassinated your leaders. We engaged in military actions on your soil, without your permission or even knowledge.
Go ahead, call a cop. Write a strongly-worded editorial. Make an impassioned speech at the UN. Good luck to you.
So, why give a shit if the Russians paid people to kill American soldiers? It’s only the same shit that we do to them.
First, nobody is particularly surprised that the Russians paid to have Americans killed. People are surprised by the reaction, or apparent lack of reaction, by the POTUS and his administration.
And it’s reasonable to be unhappily surprised by that, because even though nation-states are not virtuous actors, we nonetheless depend on them for a lot of valuable things. For the basic stability of day to day life. For defense against hostile actors of various kinds, including other nation-states. For the ability to engage with the world in a safe and reliable way.
A part of all of that is that we reasonably expect the representatives of our particular nation-state to respond in some way to hostile threats or actions against it. Not necessarily belligerent, over-the-top demonstrations of force. But also not the kind of incompetent, “Nobody told me anything about it” bullshit that we see now.
We very reasonably expect the POTUS to not respond to things like this by running away from the responsibility of office as far and as fast as possible. And then blaming other people for any and every failure.
Right?
There are other aspects of this that are relevant. One of them is the fact that Trump has made no small part of his fortune by selling luxury real estate to very wealthy off-shore parties, many of them Russian kleptocrats, acting anonymously through shell corporations. This is a pretty common vehicle of money-laundering, and is a big chunk of Trump Co.’s revenue stream.
Another is the engagement of the Trump campaign with Russian actors during the 2016 campaign. Another is Trump’s bizarre deference to Putin in a variety of diplomatic contexts.
A reasonable person might ask, WTF?
Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, Obama, Trump. All have significant blood on their hands, as the executives of a consequential nation-state. You can basically stipulate horrific moral compromise as a necessary part of the job. I wouldn’t do it, not that anyone is or ever would ask me to. Lucky me to be safe from that kind of moral hazard.
But it’s possible to recognize and acknowledge all of that, and even to condemn it as an evil, and also to recognize the uniquely craven incompetence and irresponsibility of this particular president.
You can do both. You can recognize that we, the United States, do and have done horrible things, and not even always from decent or reasonable motives. And you can also recognize that another country paying people to kill our people deserves some kind of response. Even a symbolic response, a statement that we know it’s going on and that it’s unacceptable.
Right? No matter how guilty we are of the same or similar.
Something. Not nothing. Or even worse, “Nobody told me about it”.
I’ll also say that I think everyone here understands that nations are not virtuous actors, and that they engage in actions that are morally foul on a regular basis. Folks here probably have a variety of opinions about when and whether that is justifiable, but I think we all understand the plain fact of it.
If we want to talk about the wrongness of Russia paying people to kill Americans, then we also need to talk about the wrongness of the United States arming Afghan mujahideen to kill Russians in the late 70’s and 80’s. We wanted to bleed them, to “make it their Vietnam”. That started under the sainted Jimmy Carter, and continued under Reagan.
Right?
You can pick any country on the planet and find dirt. The US, probably more than average, because we see ourselves as the global champions of our model of governance and therefore allow ourselves certain “liberties” in how we engage with the world.
Nation-states are not virtuous. They are sovereign actors with very little to constrain them.
We overthrew your government. We assassinated your leaders. We engaged in military actions on your soil, without your permission or even knowledge.
Go ahead, call a cop. Write a strongly-worded editorial. Make an impassioned speech at the UN. Good luck to you.
So, why give a shit if the Russians paid people to kill American soldiers? It’s only the same shit that we do to them.
First, nobody is particularly surprised that the Russians paid to have Americans killed. People are surprised by the reaction, or apparent lack of reaction, by the POTUS and his administration.
And it’s reasonable to be unhappily surprised by that, because even though nation-states are not virtuous actors, we nonetheless depend on them for a lot of valuable things. For the basic stability of day to day life. For defense against hostile actors of various kinds, including other nation-states. For the ability to engage with the world in a safe and reliable way.
A part of all of that is that we reasonably expect the representatives of our particular nation-state to respond in some way to hostile threats or actions against it. Not necessarily belligerent, over-the-top demonstrations of force. But also not the kind of incompetent, “Nobody told me anything about it” bullshit that we see now.
We very reasonably expect the POTUS to not respond to things like this by running away from the responsibility of office as far and as fast as possible. And then blaming other people for any and every failure.
Right?
There are other aspects of this that are relevant. One of them is the fact that Trump has made no small part of his fortune by selling luxury real estate to very wealthy off-shore parties, many of them Russian kleptocrats, acting anonymously through shell corporations. This is a pretty common vehicle of money-laundering, and is a big chunk of Trump Co.’s revenue stream.
Another is the engagement of the Trump campaign with Russian actors during the 2016 campaign. Another is Trump’s bizarre deference to Putin in a variety of diplomatic contexts.
A reasonable person might ask, WTF?
Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, Obama, Trump. All have significant blood on their hands, as the executives of a consequential nation-state. You can basically stipulate horrific moral compromise as a necessary part of the job. I wouldn’t do it, not that anyone is or ever would ask me to. Lucky me to be safe from that kind of moral hazard.
But it’s possible to recognize and acknowledge all of that, and even to condemn it as an evil, and also to recognize the uniquely craven incompetence and irresponsibility of this particular president.
You can do both. You can recognize that we, the United States, do and have done horrible things, and not even always from decent or reasonable motives. And you can also recognize that another country paying people to kill our people deserves some kind of response. Even a symbolic response, a statement that we know it’s going on and that it’s unacceptable.
Right? No matter how guilty we are of the same or similar.
Something. Not nothing. Or even worse, “Nobody told me about it”.
I’ll also say that I think everyone here understands that nations are not virtuous actors, and that they engage in actions that are morally foul on a regular basis. Folks here probably have a variety of opinions about when and whether that is justifiable, but I think we all understand the plain fact of it.
Agreed, to all of wrs. And some of that is what I was getting at, of course, when I compared Theresa May’s reaction to the Salisbury poisonings with Trump’s to the Russian bounties.
Agreed, to all of wrs. And some of that is what I was getting at, of course, when I compared Theresa May’s reaction to the Salisbury poisonings with Trump’s to the Russian bounties.
Beware of despots (and pangolins) when they sense their willingly handled dupes (the ants) are starting to find them tedious, tedium being the worst of all mortal sins in bullshit reality show America:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/trump-boring-now-and-he-cant-do-anything-about-it/613654/
I suspect the despot’s response will be along the lines of the producers’ and script writers’ strategy in “Game of Thrones” …. OK, we’ve teased them and kept them on the edge of their seats with the baby and teenage dragons all along; now, let’s hit them with the full grown, fire-breathing motherf*ckers for the grand, vengeful, world-destroying finale.
But, leave them wanting even more in the sequel.
And let’s remember: Syndication is the biggest take of them all.
Beware of despots (and pangolins) when they sense their willingly handled dupes (the ants) are starting to find them tedious, tedium being the worst of all mortal sins in bullshit reality show America:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/trump-boring-now-and-he-cant-do-anything-about-it/613654/
I suspect the despot’s response will be along the lines of the producers’ and script writers’ strategy in “Game of Thrones” …. OK, we’ve teased them and kept them on the edge of their seats with the baby and teenage dragons all along; now, let’s hit them with the full grown, fire-breathing motherf*ckers for the grand, vengeful, world-destroying finale.
But, leave them wanting even more in the sequel.
And let’s remember: Syndication is the biggest take of them all.
Nation-states are not virtuous. They are sovereign actors with very little to constrain them.
The one thing that there is to constrain them is the reaction of other nation-states if they go too far overboard. Of course, not all nation-states are equal, so if you are powerful enough (e.g. Russia or the US) there aren’t too many to constrain you. And if you discover that the strongest of those is prepared to just roll over, your constraints just got drastically reduced.
Nation-states are not virtuous. They are sovereign actors with very little to constrain them.
The one thing that there is to constrain them is the reaction of other nation-states if they go too far overboard. Of course, not all nation-states are equal, so if you are powerful enough (e.g. Russia or the US) there aren’t too many to constrain you. And if you discover that the strongest of those is prepared to just roll over, your constraints just got drastically reduced.
if you discover that the strongest of those is prepared to just roll over, your constraints just got drastically reduced
^^^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^^
if you discover that the strongest of those is prepared to just roll over, your constraints just got drastically reduced
^^^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^^
We very reasonably expect the POTUS to not respond to things like this by running away from the responsibility of office as far and as fast as possible. And then blaming other people for any and every failure.
we also need to consider the message this sends to individual Americas, but especially those who serve in the military: Trump is apparently unbothered by the fact that another country puts bounties on individual, named, Americans.
at the very least, the leader of a country should make a big fncking show of being outraged by this, as most of us expect him to be.
by not caring enough to even fake outrage, or acknowledge that it happened, or come up with a lie about having handled it already, Trump is telling us all that the US government doesn’t stand up for its citizens.
he should be jailed.
We very reasonably expect the POTUS to not respond to things like this by running away from the responsibility of office as far and as fast as possible. And then blaming other people for any and every failure.
we also need to consider the message this sends to individual Americas, but especially those who serve in the military: Trump is apparently unbothered by the fact that another country puts bounties on individual, named, Americans.
at the very least, the leader of a country should make a big fncking show of being outraged by this, as most of us expect him to be.
by not caring enough to even fake outrage, or acknowledge that it happened, or come up with a lie about having handled it already, Trump is telling us all that the US government doesn’t stand up for its citizens.
he should be jailed.
Jail is the least of it.
“Trump is telling us all that the US government doesn’t stand up for its citizens.”
https://digbysblog.net/2020/06/oh-no-2/
oh, no, lions, and tigers, and bears, and bats, and pangolins weren’t bad enough.
Here come the genocidal Republican Party.
Jail is the least of it.
“Trump is telling us all that the US government doesn’t stand up for its citizens.”
https://digbysblog.net/2020/06/oh-no-2/
oh, no, lions, and tigers, and bears, and bats, and pangolins weren’t bad enough.
Here come the genocidal Republican Party.
yeah, but liberals exist. so, whattayagonnado?
yeah, but liberals exist. so, whattayagonnado?
The trouble with becoming the Know Nothing Party is that eventually you run up against something that just doesn’t give a damn what your uninformed opinions are. With luck, all you do is get your foolish followers killed (thus improving the gene pool). Without it, and more likely, you manage to get a bunch of other people killed as well. That’s pretty much where we are at the moment.
The trouble with becoming the Know Nothing Party is that eventually you run up against something that just doesn’t give a damn what your uninformed opinions are. With luck, all you do is get your foolish followers killed (thus improving the gene pool). Without it, and more likely, you manage to get a bunch of other people killed as well. That’s pretty much where we are at the moment.
You can do both.
As somebody who has suffered from US foreign policy derangement syndrome since the 60’s, I would say this pretty much gets it right.
I am currently finishing up “The Light That Failed-A Reckoning” by Ivan Krastev and Stephen Holmes.
Highly recommended to all who drop by here, from Marty to our own Donald.
You can do both.
As somebody who has suffered from US foreign policy derangement syndrome since the 60’s, I would say this pretty much gets it right.
I am currently finishing up “The Light That Failed-A Reckoning” by Ivan Krastev and Stephen Holmes.
Highly recommended to all who drop by here, from Marty to our own Donald.
Discussions of ‘this blog’ prompt some observations.
This blog is obsessive about Republican crimes and bad policies and just as with the sites I prefer, is very predictable in its responses.
I’m wondering why I find ‘very predictable in its responses’ to be such a dismissal. I have known people who are totally unpredictable in their responses, though I try to know them for as short a time as possible. If people aren’t, in some way, consistent, you really don’t know how to approach them, and I would imagine that blogs are the same.
And while I understand that people are generally going to congregate in groupings where their basic values (and history) are shared and where communication is relatively cost free (one thing that prevents me from finding a similar group here in Japan. Even if the first two conditions were met, the communication cost for me to write in Japanese is so much higher as to be prohibitive), I also think that this is not some sin on the people who do that, it is only a problem when then treat outsiders with disdain and fail to make some allowances for their participation. At least that is my thinking at the moment, though I’m open to having my mind changed.
Discussions of ‘this blog’ prompt some observations.
This blog is obsessive about Republican crimes and bad policies and just as with the sites I prefer, is very predictable in its responses.
I’m wondering why I find ‘very predictable in its responses’ to be such a dismissal. I have known people who are totally unpredictable in their responses, though I try to know them for as short a time as possible. If people aren’t, in some way, consistent, you really don’t know how to approach them, and I would imagine that blogs are the same.
And while I understand that people are generally going to congregate in groupings where their basic values (and history) are shared and where communication is relatively cost free (one thing that prevents me from finding a similar group here in Japan. Even if the first two conditions were met, the communication cost for me to write in Japanese is so much higher as to be prohibitive), I also think that this is not some sin on the people who do that, it is only a problem when then treat outsiders with disdain and fail to make some allowances for their participation. At least that is my thinking at the moment, though I’m open to having my mind changed.
I have known people who are totally unpredictable in their responses, though I try to know them for as short a time as possible. If people aren’t, in some way, consistent, you really don’t know how to approach them, and I would imagine that blogs are the same.
An interesting observation. Personally, I think I prefer people who are consistent in their values, which is to say the things they think important. This allows room for often unpredictable responses and opinions, and ways of looking at the world, while still providing a kind of bedrock of ethical consistency.
I have known people who are totally unpredictable in their responses, though I try to know them for as short a time as possible. If people aren’t, in some way, consistent, you really don’t know how to approach them, and I would imagine that blogs are the same.
An interesting observation. Personally, I think I prefer people who are consistent in their values, which is to say the things they think important. This allows room for often unpredictable responses and opinions, and ways of looking at the world, while still providing a kind of bedrock of ethical consistency.
“I also think that this is not some sin on the people who do that, it is only a problem when then treat outsiders with disdain and fail to make some allowances for their participation. ”
I participate here because of this. I have been asked why I do, the answer is that most people here have a legitimate complaint. They make as much allowance for me as they can, or are willing to, and I understand they have legitimate grievances. I have spent much of my life pretty liberal socially, while a steadfast Reagan Republican fiscally. It does create a level of dissonance I constantly deal with.
On this blog I am a reactionary, in my actual life I am at the barely acceptable political fringes of all my friends on either side.
We are all who we are here, a welcome place for me to take my lumps defending the other end of the spectrum.
I like everyone here, your passion, conviction and intelligence. I am better prepared to process at a personal level everything from BLM to MMT because of my time here.
Just saying.
“I also think that this is not some sin on the people who do that, it is only a problem when then treat outsiders with disdain and fail to make some allowances for their participation. ”
I participate here because of this. I have been asked why I do, the answer is that most people here have a legitimate complaint. They make as much allowance for me as they can, or are willing to, and I understand they have legitimate grievances. I have spent much of my life pretty liberal socially, while a steadfast Reagan Republican fiscally. It does create a level of dissonance I constantly deal with.
On this blog I am a reactionary, in my actual life I am at the barely acceptable political fringes of all my friends on either side.
We are all who we are here, a welcome place for me to take my lumps defending the other end of the spectrum.
I like everyone here, your passion, conviction and intelligence. I am better prepared to process at a personal level everything from BLM to MMT because of my time here.
Just saying.
I’m glad you are here, Marty.
I’m glad you are here, Marty.
I love you too John, even the days I hate you.
I love you too John, even the days I hate you.
We are all who we are here, a welcome place for me to take my lumps defending the other end of the spectrum.
I like everyone here, your passion, conviction and intelligence. I am better prepared to process at a personal level everything from BLM to MMT because of my time here.
Marty, we will no doubt go back to fighting about politics at some time in the future (hopefully after a Dem victory in November!), but you remind me here why I don’t want to have a serious fight with you. Unless people of good faith are willing to keep making the effort to talk and explain across the equivalent of the Great Divide, the future can only be bitter and desperate. I continue to hope for something better, despite often despairing at current developments.
We are all who we are here, a welcome place for me to take my lumps defending the other end of the spectrum.
I like everyone here, your passion, conviction and intelligence. I am better prepared to process at a personal level everything from BLM to MMT because of my time here.
Marty, we will no doubt go back to fighting about politics at some time in the future (hopefully after a Dem victory in November!), but you remind me here why I don’t want to have a serious fight with you. Unless people of good faith are willing to keep making the effort to talk and explain across the equivalent of the Great Divide, the future can only be bitter and desperate. I continue to hope for something better, despite often despairing at current developments.
I’m glad you are here, Marty
Shorter me: seconded.
I’m glad you are here, Marty
Shorter me: seconded.
I understand.
I understand.
I’m glad you are here, Marty.
I love you too John, even the days I hate you.
Jeez, get a room, you two!
🙂
Glad you’re here Marty. Somebody’s gotta keep us honest, and we’re wearing wj and McK down.
I’m glad you are here, Marty.
I love you too John, even the days I hate you.
Jeez, get a room, you two!
🙂
Glad you’re here Marty. Somebody’s gotta keep us honest, and we’re wearing wj and McK down.
Shouldn’t these guys be on separate mountains to social distance.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/6/30/1957243/-No-masks-or-social-distancing-to-be-required-at-Trump-s-Mt-Rushmore-fireworks-and-virus-spectacular
If only the artist Christo had not passed away recently, he and his partner could sneak in the night before and drape gigantic N-95 masks over the Presidents’ faces so the assembled superspreaders could view the glory of sound science at sunrise, which is spectacular at Mt. Rushmore.
Then, in the middle of the festivities, Teddy Roosevelt’s mask could be swept away by a gust of wind and the rough rider could cough a mighty droplet-laden cough over the crowd and they could virtually inhale their Constitutional Right to suffocate and infect their fellow Americans.
Republicans should do more kissing of one another when they gather together, to hasten the process, from political rally to ventilator.
And bring their pet pangolins.
But, they do have their principles.
Shouldn’t these guys be on separate mountains to social distance.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/6/30/1957243/-No-masks-or-social-distancing-to-be-required-at-Trump-s-Mt-Rushmore-fireworks-and-virus-spectacular
If only the artist Christo had not passed away recently, he and his partner could sneak in the night before and drape gigantic N-95 masks over the Presidents’ faces so the assembled superspreaders could view the glory of sound science at sunrise, which is spectacular at Mt. Rushmore.
Then, in the middle of the festivities, Teddy Roosevelt’s mask could be swept away by a gust of wind and the rough rider could cough a mighty droplet-laden cough over the crowd and they could virtually inhale their Constitutional Right to suffocate and infect their fellow Americans.
Republicans should do more kissing of one another when they gather together, to hasten the process, from political rally to ventilator.
And bring their pet pangolins.
But, they do have their principles.
Given the fire danger currently in South Dakota, perhaps they can manage to get burned before covid-19 has time to kill them.
Given the fire danger currently in South Dakota, perhaps they can manage to get burned before covid-19 has time to kill them.
Sow the wind; reap the whirlwind.
In Colorado’s 3rd district, I see another GOP incumbant, endorsed by Trump, was beaten by a Q-Anon nutcase. Once you start charging down the road to crazy, where do you stop.
In a perfect world, these whackos will manage to lose a bunch of otherwise safe districts. It might even be a learning experience for them — although our experience in California doesn’t suggest that’s a particularly high probability.
Sow the wind; reap the whirlwind.
In Colorado’s 3rd district, I see another GOP incumbant, endorsed by Trump, was beaten by a Q-Anon nutcase. Once you start charging down the road to crazy, where do you stop.
In a perfect world, these whackos will manage to lose a bunch of otherwise safe districts. It might even be a learning experience for them — although our experience in California doesn’t suggest that’s a particularly high probability.
Gftnc— I am sorry you feel that way, but I knew you were doing the far left right thing—it’s not exactly uncommon for people to say things like that. The cooties thing was a joke. Did you really think I thought you think Marty has cooties? Your post was dismissive. It made me angry.
“ I’m wondering why I find ‘very predictable in its responses’ to be such a dismissal.”
You might have noticed I said the same thing about the blogs and people I prefer. Briefly, if you spend most of your political discussion time ripping into Republicans, you ignore the crimes committed by both parties and you may end up siding with people who are criticizing Trump for the wrong reasons. People on the far left sometimes have other blind spots.
“ You can do both. You can recognize that we, the United States, do and have done horrible things, and not even always from decent or reasonable motives. And you can also recognize that another country paying people to kill our people deserves some kind of response. Even a symbolic response, a statement that we know it’s going on and that it’s unacceptable.
Gftnc— I am sorry you feel that way, but I knew you were doing the far left right thing—it’s not exactly uncommon for people to say things like that. The cooties thing was a joke. Did you really think I thought you think Marty has cooties? Your post was dismissive. It made me angry.
“ I’m wondering why I find ‘very predictable in its responses’ to be such a dismissal.”
You might have noticed I said the same thing about the blogs and people I prefer. Briefly, if you spend most of your political discussion time ripping into Republicans, you ignore the crimes committed by both parties and you may end up siding with people who are criticizing Trump for the wrong reasons. People on the far left sometimes have other blind spots.
“ You can do both. You can recognize that we, the United States, do and have done horrible things, and not even always from decent or reasonable motives. And you can also recognize that another country paying people to kill our people deserves some kind of response. Even a symbolic response, a statement that we know it’s going on and that it’s unacceptable.
I forgot I had Russell’s comment there. I was going to respond separately.
But no, in practice, most people obviously don’t do this. People seem to have a limited amount of emotional energy to spend on political outrage and they usually focus it. They spend most of their energy on one thing.
And in this case I think it is damn near impossible to bridge the gap between the liberal and the leftist attitude towards foreign policy. It isn’t completely impossible, but it is very hard. I had a friend say this in 2016, that he could condemn US atrocities and Russian intervention at the same time.
Yeah, and I could criticize some nasty comments made against person X and an act of cold blooded murder committed by person X at the same time. You can do both, but you should probably maintain some sense of proportion.
Russian intervention in 2016 consisted of stealing emails that embarrassed the Democratic Party ( for good reason) and putting up some absolutely ridiculous social media crap. It might have changed the results, particularly the email theft. US foreign policy involves sanctions that wreck economies and cause immense suffering. It involves supporting terrorism and war crimes that can reach genocidal levels. It can include war crimes committed by the US itself.
These are not comparable. If you get outraged by what Russia did in 2016, you should be many times more outraged by some of our foreign policy actions. It is a slap vs a murder. Now a slap could induce much more violence and that is one reason to condemn slaps. But if people spend vast amounts of time talking about the slap against our country and very little time talking about the murders committed by it, there is something wrong here.
I forgot I had Russell’s comment there. I was going to respond separately.
But no, in practice, most people obviously don’t do this. People seem to have a limited amount of emotional energy to spend on political outrage and they usually focus it. They spend most of their energy on one thing.
And in this case I think it is damn near impossible to bridge the gap between the liberal and the leftist attitude towards foreign policy. It isn’t completely impossible, but it is very hard. I had a friend say this in 2016, that he could condemn US atrocities and Russian intervention at the same time.
Yeah, and I could criticize some nasty comments made against person X and an act of cold blooded murder committed by person X at the same time. You can do both, but you should probably maintain some sense of proportion.
Russian intervention in 2016 consisted of stealing emails that embarrassed the Democratic Party ( for good reason) and putting up some absolutely ridiculous social media crap. It might have changed the results, particularly the email theft. US foreign policy involves sanctions that wreck economies and cause immense suffering. It involves supporting terrorism and war crimes that can reach genocidal levels. It can include war crimes committed by the US itself.
These are not comparable. If you get outraged by what Russia did in 2016, you should be many times more outraged by some of our foreign policy actions. It is a slap vs a murder. Now a slap could induce much more violence and that is one reason to condemn slaps. But if people spend vast amounts of time talking about the slap against our country and very little time talking about the murders committed by it, there is something wrong here.
Marty has cooties, too?
Cancel that room together Russell booked for us.
Marty has cooties, too?
Cancel that room together Russell booked for us.
But if people spend vast amounts of time talking about the slap against our country and very little time talking about the murders committed by it, there is something wrong here.
While this may be true, we’re talking about the Russian bounties because they’re news – very new news, even. And it’s all the more disturbing because of the strange nexus that appears to exist between the POTUS and Russia. As you said, the problems of US foreign policy are longstanding and the blame is widespread. I don’t know how that means we can’t discuss how feckless Trump’s response to this very recent allegation has been. He might as well be sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling “LA! LA! LA! – I can’t hear you!”
Do you approve of his response or not, regardless of what you think of what other people suggest should be done about it? Do we just say, “Oh, well. We’re no better. Let’s just let it slide.”?
But if people spend vast amounts of time talking about the slap against our country and very little time talking about the murders committed by it, there is something wrong here.
While this may be true, we’re talking about the Russian bounties because they’re news – very new news, even. And it’s all the more disturbing because of the strange nexus that appears to exist between the POTUS and Russia. As you said, the problems of US foreign policy are longstanding and the blame is widespread. I don’t know how that means we can’t discuss how feckless Trump’s response to this very recent allegation has been. He might as well be sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling “LA! LA! LA! – I can’t hear you!”
Do you approve of his response or not, regardless of what you think of what other people suggest should be done about it? Do we just say, “Oh, well. We’re no better. Let’s just let it slide.”?
To return to the original topic of this thread (DiAngelo etc), I post a link to a piece on Woke Capitalism. I don’t endorse it, but nonetheless I think it is an interesting read.
https://helenlewis.substack.com/p/the-bluestocking-woke-capitalism
To return to the original topic of this thread (DiAngelo etc), I post a link to a piece on Woke Capitalism. I don’t endorse it, but nonetheless I think it is an interesting read.
https://helenlewis.substack.com/p/the-bluestocking-woke-capitalism
Here is an example of what I dislike about liberals—
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/opinion/trump-russia-afghanistan.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
First, it isn’t honest. She is cherry-picking. She wants to portray Trump as wholly in Putin’s pocket and if you say this often enough and ignore evidence that doesn’t fit, it becomes a “ fact”. But Trump has opposed the gas pipeline from Russia to Germany and he has given weapons to the Ukraine ( yes, he also wanted to use this as leverage against Biden— that’s our Trump) and on Syria, we are imposing draconian sanctions which will hurt ordinary Syrians, prevent recovery, and make Syria an albatross around Russia’s neck. That is part of that quagmire I mentioned earlier. The Russians don’t want the sanctions on Syria. Syria is their ally and they want them to recover.
An honest policy analyst would mention the policies of Trump that Putin opposes, but she doesn’t, because it complicates the narrative. But her liberal audience eats ths crap up like it was candy.
And also, just as an afterthought and all, what we have done and are doing in Syria is morally depraved. We supported people who fought side by side with Al Qaeda and if they had won it would likely have been genocide for religious minorities and Westerners talked about this exactly in the childish way the prowar crowd had done with Iraq, Saddam was evil and Assad is evil so we should overthrown them. This time without a large scale ground invasion. Russia jumped in when it looked like ISIS might win. So Assad has mostly won and the US is imposing yet more sanctions that will hurt ordinary Syrians. Are we talking about that in the US? Of course not.
As for Afghanistan, we had the extremely short- lived scandal of the Afghanistan Papers last December which lasted about a week. If people are upset about Trumps lack of respect for the lives of American soldiers, this would have had more of an impact. Am I doing whataboutism here? Yep. Whataboutism is sometimes the name given when one points to an inconsistency in how people express their moral outrage.
So yes, Trump should tell Putin to stop targeting US troops, but liberal moral outrage is carefully targeted. And on foreign policy some of the criticism comes from people who are pushing for more militaristic policies. Bolton is an extreme example, but Rice is in this category to some extent. Susan Rice is a hawk. She supported the Iraq War. Recently when the protests about police brutality were getting violent, she said something about how this was out of Russia’s playbook. Yeah, those furriners are stirring things up.
But her motives could be dubious and this particular piece could be good. It isn’t.
Here is an example of what I dislike about liberals—
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/opinion/trump-russia-afghanistan.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
First, it isn’t honest. She is cherry-picking. She wants to portray Trump as wholly in Putin’s pocket and if you say this often enough and ignore evidence that doesn’t fit, it becomes a “ fact”. But Trump has opposed the gas pipeline from Russia to Germany and he has given weapons to the Ukraine ( yes, he also wanted to use this as leverage against Biden— that’s our Trump) and on Syria, we are imposing draconian sanctions which will hurt ordinary Syrians, prevent recovery, and make Syria an albatross around Russia’s neck. That is part of that quagmire I mentioned earlier. The Russians don’t want the sanctions on Syria. Syria is their ally and they want them to recover.
An honest policy analyst would mention the policies of Trump that Putin opposes, but she doesn’t, because it complicates the narrative. But her liberal audience eats ths crap up like it was candy.
And also, just as an afterthought and all, what we have done and are doing in Syria is morally depraved. We supported people who fought side by side with Al Qaeda and if they had won it would likely have been genocide for religious minorities and Westerners talked about this exactly in the childish way the prowar crowd had done with Iraq, Saddam was evil and Assad is evil so we should overthrown them. This time without a large scale ground invasion. Russia jumped in when it looked like ISIS might win. So Assad has mostly won and the US is imposing yet more sanctions that will hurt ordinary Syrians. Are we talking about that in the US? Of course not.
As for Afghanistan, we had the extremely short- lived scandal of the Afghanistan Papers last December which lasted about a week. If people are upset about Trumps lack of respect for the lives of American soldiers, this would have had more of an impact. Am I doing whataboutism here? Yep. Whataboutism is sometimes the name given when one points to an inconsistency in how people express their moral outrage.
So yes, Trump should tell Putin to stop targeting US troops, but liberal moral outrage is carefully targeted. And on foreign policy some of the criticism comes from people who are pushing for more militaristic policies. Bolton is an extreme example, but Rice is in this category to some extent. Susan Rice is a hawk. She supported the Iraq War. Recently when the protests about police brutality were getting violent, she said something about how this was out of Russia’s playbook. Yeah, those furriners are stirring things up.
But her motives could be dubious and this particular piece could be good. It isn’t.
But no, in practice, most people obviously don’t do this.
I think you underestimate what most people are capable of, and do.
Russian intervention in 2016 consisted of stealing emails that embarrassed the Democratic Party ( for good reason) and putting up some absolutely ridiculous social media crap.
A couple of things, briefly.
First, what was being discussed was not Russian meddling in our election, but Russia paying to have Americans executed.
Second, to the degree that people are disturbed by Russia’s meddling in the 2016 election, what they are disturbed by is not so much Russia’s actions, but the fact that Trump’s campaign welcomed it and co-operated with it.
Lastly, the meddling in 2016 and the paying for American scalps are not, by any measure, the complete picture of Russian actions that are not in our interest. And not just not in our interest, but not in the interest of stable world order generally.
I’m using the fairly neutral phrase “not in the interest of” deliberately here, to defer to what seems, to me, to be your interest in seeing all national actors as equally, or at least comparably, culpable in harmful or even criminal activities.
But to be honest, I don’t think that all national actors are equally or even comparably culpable. Some countries are worse than others.
IMO it is fair to recognize Russia under Putin as falling on the ‘worse’ end of the spectrum. And it would be fair for us to address Russian actions on that basis. Not because we’re perfect, but mostly because we’re one of the few nations that can. And because it would be useful to most of the world for someone to do it.
I’m not talking about dropping bombs. I’m talking about drawing lines. About making it clear that boundaries of acceptable behavior exist.
Maybe we are too compromised by our own bad behavior, but since there aren’t that many nations in a position to actually curb aggressive Russian behavior, maybe it would be good if we did it anyway.
Because we can, and it would be a good thing to do.
Those are my thoughts.
But no, in practice, most people obviously don’t do this.
I think you underestimate what most people are capable of, and do.
Russian intervention in 2016 consisted of stealing emails that embarrassed the Democratic Party ( for good reason) and putting up some absolutely ridiculous social media crap.
A couple of things, briefly.
First, what was being discussed was not Russian meddling in our election, but Russia paying to have Americans executed.
Second, to the degree that people are disturbed by Russia’s meddling in the 2016 election, what they are disturbed by is not so much Russia’s actions, but the fact that Trump’s campaign welcomed it and co-operated with it.
Lastly, the meddling in 2016 and the paying for American scalps are not, by any measure, the complete picture of Russian actions that are not in our interest. And not just not in our interest, but not in the interest of stable world order generally.
I’m using the fairly neutral phrase “not in the interest of” deliberately here, to defer to what seems, to me, to be your interest in seeing all national actors as equally, or at least comparably, culpable in harmful or even criminal activities.
But to be honest, I don’t think that all national actors are equally or even comparably culpable. Some countries are worse than others.
IMO it is fair to recognize Russia under Putin as falling on the ‘worse’ end of the spectrum. And it would be fair for us to address Russian actions on that basis. Not because we’re perfect, but mostly because we’re one of the few nations that can. And because it would be useful to most of the world for someone to do it.
I’m not talking about dropping bombs. I’m talking about drawing lines. About making it clear that boundaries of acceptable behavior exist.
Maybe we are too compromised by our own bad behavior, but since there aren’t that many nations in a position to actually curb aggressive Russian behavior, maybe it would be good if we did it anyway.
Because we can, and it would be a good thing to do.
Those are my thoughts.
“ Do you approve of his response or not, regardless of what you think of what other people suggest should be done about it? Do we just say, “Oh, well. We’re no better. Let’s just let it slide.”?
I don’t approve of Trump’s lack of a response, but I will probably dislike some of the proposed responses even less than inaction.
One thing I should have been clearer on. The far lefties I read criticize Trump and his policies all the time. There is a tremendous amount to criticize.
But they largely ignore Russiagate or dismiss it altogether and they don’t jump on Trump for not being tough enough against our enemies. They criticize Trump on immigration, war crimes, Covid, the environment YEC..
Chomsky just told Jacobin that Trump is the worst person in history. I saw the clickbait headline and thought old Noam was a little over the top, but it turned out he was talking about Trump’s attitude towards global warming. He has a point.
But we have liberal politicians pearl clutching about Afghanistan and being dismissive of the Green New Deal.
Liberals, in our opinion, are sometimes attacking Trump on his right flank. This is bad. And many only seem to care bout issues from a Republican vs Democrat perspective. This is also bad. You can support Democrats as the lesser evil or sometimes even good ( I like Jamaal Bowman and the Squad) without making everything about that.
I am going to take a vacation from blog ranting for awhile.
“ Do you approve of his response or not, regardless of what you think of what other people suggest should be done about it? Do we just say, “Oh, well. We’re no better. Let’s just let it slide.”?
I don’t approve of Trump’s lack of a response, but I will probably dislike some of the proposed responses even less than inaction.
One thing I should have been clearer on. The far lefties I read criticize Trump and his policies all the time. There is a tremendous amount to criticize.
But they largely ignore Russiagate or dismiss it altogether and they don’t jump on Trump for not being tough enough against our enemies. They criticize Trump on immigration, war crimes, Covid, the environment YEC..
Chomsky just told Jacobin that Trump is the worst person in history. I saw the clickbait headline and thought old Noam was a little over the top, but it turned out he was talking about Trump’s attitude towards global warming. He has a point.
But we have liberal politicians pearl clutching about Afghanistan and being dismissive of the Green New Deal.
Liberals, in our opinion, are sometimes attacking Trump on his right flank. This is bad. And many only seem to care bout issues from a Republican vs Democrat perspective. This is also bad. You can support Democrats as the lesser evil or sometimes even good ( I like Jamaal Bowman and the Squad) without making everything about that.
I am going to take a vacation from blog ranting for awhile.
YEC—
I meant etc. ipad correction. Young earth creationism isn’t much in the news.
YEC—
I meant etc. ipad correction. Young earth creationism isn’t much in the news.
Oh, and as for foreign pockets in which Trump resides— clearly Israel and the Saudis. It’s no contest. And even there he doesn’t quite do everything they want or we would be in a war with Iran and Trump would fully endorse the annexation plan. His administration seems to be holding back slightly.
Oh, and as for foreign pockets in which Trump resides— clearly Israel and the Saudis. It’s no contest. And even there he doesn’t quite do everything they want or we would be in a war with Iran and Trump would fully endorse the annexation plan. His administration seems to be holding back slightly.
Maybe we are too compromised by our own bad behavior, but since there aren’t that many nations in a position to actually curb aggressive Russian behavior, maybe it would be good if we did it anyway.
As I read Donald, he thinks both sides are bad. In an ideal world, both would stop.
But in the world we have, there appear to be basically two real possible courses:
1) the US pushes Russia to behave better. (Which might, or might not, get us to behave better as well. But would at least improve the overall situation a bit.)
2) the US does nothing. Because our bad behavior gives us no standing to talk. So nothing changes any time soon.
Donald, forgive me if I misread you, but you come across as firmly on the side of #2. I’m not asking you to give our bad behavior a pass. But if you really want things to improve, however unfortunately slowly and partially, perhaps you might occasionally sound like it.
Maybe we are too compromised by our own bad behavior, but since there aren’t that many nations in a position to actually curb aggressive Russian behavior, maybe it would be good if we did it anyway.
As I read Donald, he thinks both sides are bad. In an ideal world, both would stop.
But in the world we have, there appear to be basically two real possible courses:
1) the US pushes Russia to behave better. (Which might, or might not, get us to behave better as well. But would at least improve the overall situation a bit.)
2) the US does nothing. Because our bad behavior gives us no standing to talk. So nothing changes any time soon.
Donald, forgive me if I misread you, but you come across as firmly on the side of #2. I’m not asking you to give our bad behavior a pass. But if you really want things to improve, however unfortunately slowly and partially, perhaps you might occasionally sound like it.
“ I’m not talking about dropping bombs. I’m talking about drawing lines. About making it clear that boundaries of acceptable behavior exist.
Maybe we are too compromised by our own bad behavior, ”
Yes, we are in fact too compromised by our own bad behavior and under both parties, though Republicans are worse. If you want norms to be enforced in international conduct , America is a huge part of the problem. Americans should focus on that first. By all means have international organizations call out Putin for his crimes but they should be doing the same to us. And we should take it seriously. We are nowhere near that point.
There is a fundamental gulf between leftists and liberals on this point and that’s what I am getting at when talking about how people portion out their moral outrage. The stuff I rant about here is just taken for granted at anti- interventionist sites. If someone like Sanders ( and Sanders was if anything not anti- interventionist enough) got into the WH there would be leaks galore from people saying that he or she was undermining the national security interests of the US. And allowing high ranking US officials to be tried for war crimes would be off the scales impossible.
This is a description of a society which refuses to let anyone hold it accountable for its crimes.
I imagine Marty doesn’t want my cooties on him on some of this.
“ I’m not talking about dropping bombs. I’m talking about drawing lines. About making it clear that boundaries of acceptable behavior exist.
Maybe we are too compromised by our own bad behavior, ”
Yes, we are in fact too compromised by our own bad behavior and under both parties, though Republicans are worse. If you want norms to be enforced in international conduct , America is a huge part of the problem. Americans should focus on that first. By all means have international organizations call out Putin for his crimes but they should be doing the same to us. And we should take it seriously. We are nowhere near that point.
There is a fundamental gulf between leftists and liberals on this point and that’s what I am getting at when talking about how people portion out their moral outrage. The stuff I rant about here is just taken for granted at anti- interventionist sites. If someone like Sanders ( and Sanders was if anything not anti- interventionist enough) got into the WH there would be leaks galore from people saying that he or she was undermining the national security interests of the US. And allowing high ranking US officials to be tried for war crimes would be off the scales impossible.
This is a description of a society which refuses to let anyone hold it accountable for its crimes.
I imagine Marty doesn’t want my cooties on him on some of this.
Here is an example of what I dislike about liberals
I have a couple of questions about this, and I want to make sure you understand that they are just questions, not attacks.
What is specifically liberal about the faults you find in the NYT piece you cite?
Do liberals need to be held to a higher standard – moral standard, standard of integrity in argument – than their counterparties?
If so, why?
Those are my questions. My own thoughts about it all, FWIW:
People have blinders. People aren’t always candid. People distort things to further whatever point they want to make.
It’s not a liberal thing, it’s just a thing.
Here is an example of what I dislike about liberals
I have a couple of questions about this, and I want to make sure you understand that they are just questions, not attacks.
What is specifically liberal about the faults you find in the NYT piece you cite?
Do liberals need to be held to a higher standard – moral standard, standard of integrity in argument – than their counterparties?
If so, why?
Those are my questions. My own thoughts about it all, FWIW:
People have blinders. People aren’t always candid. People distort things to further whatever point they want to make.
It’s not a liberal thing, it’s just a thing.
This is a description of a society which refuses to let anyone hold it accountable for its crimes.
i can’t think of a single society, or country, or group of people, or even more than a handful of actual individual people in all of recorded history, who are pure enough in deed and in spirit to be able to measure up to that standard.
you’re basically doing the “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her,” test.
which means no person, no group, no society, no country can do anything to punish transgressions. which is great for Russia.
This is a description of a society which refuses to let anyone hold it accountable for its crimes.
i can’t think of a single society, or country, or group of people, or even more than a handful of actual individual people in all of recorded history, who are pure enough in deed and in spirit to be able to measure up to that standard.
you’re basically doing the “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her,” test.
which means no person, no group, no society, no country can do anything to punish transgressions. which is great for Russia.
I don’t know what this does to the consistency/hypocrisy thicket vis a vis American involvement in Syria, but I’ve run out of hats to jump up and down on:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/why-christians-support-trump/613669/
When Donald comments, I rarely retort, because his heart and mind are in the right place and other than with his expectations that consistency will win out over human hypocrisy in the end, given historical precedent, what’s to argue with, IMO.
But then I think back to LBJ, a crafty, inconsistent SOB Texan, who fulfilled long, long term domestic policy goals in social and civil rights policy the “Left” (whatever that is) had been working toward for much of the 20th Century, but who was deposed, pretty much, by the “Left” for his morally depraved foreign policies in Vietnam.
The mid-course correction turned out to be Richard Nixon.
And I then I think about the thoroughly consistent (in both domestic and foreign policy), right wing Barry Goldwater and the 1964 election and somehow LBJ’s inconsistent legacy looks kind of binary by sheer, side-by-side, comparison.
Moreover, I think Goldwater in his later years looking critically askance at the then just developing nutcase crypto-Christian radicalism coming to the fore in his own party (what, did he think the unlikely coalition of the John Birch Society, Ayn Rand dipsh*ts, grifting Christian (again, let’s get a new name for those ilk, if decent Christians want to preserve what’s left of American Christianity’s good name) dumbdamentalists, gun fetishists, and General Jack D. Ripper’s tooth cavity-loving, paranoid psychopaths, all quintessential American bullshitters of the first water and who found their apotheosis, their leaky vessel, in you know who … and his fall, if it occurs, doesn’t mean they don’t have more EVIL figures to turn to) were going to slink away into the background after his defeat and his ultimate RINOism got him canceled?
That all said, if President Joe Biden goes nuts overseas, as some fear, given his foreign policy chops, the Left (Black Lives Matter) and Pat Buchanan (the Devil in the guise of an anti-neo-conservative) will collude to destroy him.
“I am going to take a vacation from blog ranting for awhile.”
Like Russia and OPEC reducing their oil production, I don’t expect Donald’s pullback from blog ranting is going to reduce the overall supply of rants by fracking bloggers, who will find ever new ways to drill in sideways, until we all go bankrupt, which might be a good thing.
😉
I don’t know what this does to the consistency/hypocrisy thicket vis a vis American involvement in Syria, but I’ve run out of hats to jump up and down on:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/why-christians-support-trump/613669/
When Donald comments, I rarely retort, because his heart and mind are in the right place and other than with his expectations that consistency will win out over human hypocrisy in the end, given historical precedent, what’s to argue with, IMO.
But then I think back to LBJ, a crafty, inconsistent SOB Texan, who fulfilled long, long term domestic policy goals in social and civil rights policy the “Left” (whatever that is) had been working toward for much of the 20th Century, but who was deposed, pretty much, by the “Left” for his morally depraved foreign policies in Vietnam.
The mid-course correction turned out to be Richard Nixon.
And I then I think about the thoroughly consistent (in both domestic and foreign policy), right wing Barry Goldwater and the 1964 election and somehow LBJ’s inconsistent legacy looks kind of binary by sheer, side-by-side, comparison.
Moreover, I think Goldwater in his later years looking critically askance at the then just developing nutcase crypto-Christian radicalism coming to the fore in his own party (what, did he think the unlikely coalition of the John Birch Society, Ayn Rand dipsh*ts, grifting Christian (again, let’s get a new name for those ilk, if decent Christians want to preserve what’s left of American Christianity’s good name) dumbdamentalists, gun fetishists, and General Jack D. Ripper’s tooth cavity-loving, paranoid psychopaths, all quintessential American bullshitters of the first water and who found their apotheosis, their leaky vessel, in you know who … and his fall, if it occurs, doesn’t mean they don’t have more EVIL figures to turn to) were going to slink away into the background after his defeat and his ultimate RINOism got him canceled?
That all said, if President Joe Biden goes nuts overseas, as some fear, given his foreign policy chops, the Left (Black Lives Matter) and Pat Buchanan (the Devil in the guise of an anti-neo-conservative) will collude to destroy him.
“I am going to take a vacation from blog ranting for awhile.”
Like Russia and OPEC reducing their oil production, I don’t expect Donald’s pullback from blog ranting is going to reduce the overall supply of rants by fracking bloggers, who will find ever new ways to drill in sideways, until we all go bankrupt, which might be a good thing.
😉
Yes, we are in fact too compromised by our own bad behavior and under both parties, though Republicans are worse.
A clear and fair answer, thank you.
I find myself closer to wj’s #1, but I respect your position here without agreeing with it.
I completely agree that we, and the world, would be best served by a willingness on our part to being held accountable by our peer nations. Our failure to do so has, in fact, complicated and undermined our ability to take a clear position in the kinds of cases we’re talking about in this thread.
We are, due to our history and our general strength, in a unique position to offer leadership in areas like this. We’re squandering that.
I’m hoping some other parties might take up that role, but it’s hard to think of who that might be.
Yes, we are in fact too compromised by our own bad behavior and under both parties, though Republicans are worse.
A clear and fair answer, thank you.
I find myself closer to wj’s #1, but I respect your position here without agreeing with it.
I completely agree that we, and the world, would be best served by a willingness on our part to being held accountable by our peer nations. Our failure to do so has, in fact, complicated and undermined our ability to take a clear position in the kinds of cases we’re talking about in this thread.
We are, due to our history and our general strength, in a unique position to offer leadership in areas like this. We’re squandering that.
I’m hoping some other parties might take up that role, but it’s hard to think of who that might be.
Russell—
I am using “ liberal” as opposed to leftist. The differences are easy to spot. In the NYT and mainstream political discussions, the assumption is that the US is essentially the good guy, though we make mistakes.
In leftist circles US foreign policy is seen as imperialist. So articles and opinion pieces about foreign policy that you see in leftist sources start off with very different premises.
There are still the occasional good pieces ( from a leftist POV) that appear in the NYT and other liberal outlets. But they are the exception.
Leftists have their own blind spots, but not the same ones, since they often fracture and squabble about them. I don’t mean minor points either. But I am getting tired, so won’t go into that.
Russell—
I am using “ liberal” as opposed to leftist. The differences are easy to spot. In the NYT and mainstream political discussions, the assumption is that the US is essentially the good guy, though we make mistakes.
In leftist circles US foreign policy is seen as imperialist. So articles and opinion pieces about foreign policy that you see in leftist sources start off with very different premises.
There are still the occasional good pieces ( from a leftist POV) that appear in the NYT and other liberal outlets. But they are the exception.
Leftists have their own blind spots, but not the same ones, since they often fracture and squabble about them. I don’t mean minor points either. But I am getting tired, so won’t go into that.
do the mothers of the dead have standing to ask questions about why Russia is paying $ to have Americans killed?
do the mothers of the dead have standing to ask questions about why Russia is paying $ to have Americans killed?
Yes, mothers of the dead always have standing to ask about the policies that got their children killed.
Every mother, here and abroad.
Yes, mothers of the dead always have standing to ask about the policies that got their children killed.
Every mother, here and abroad.
In the NYT and mainstream political discussions, the assumption is that the US is essentially the good guy, though we make mistakes.
Cool, I think I follow. What you don’t like about liberals, as opposed to leftists, is more to do with substance – the particular set of blinders they operate under seem, on net, more harmful than those with other points of view.
What I was trying to understand was if you were, for some reason, holding liberals to a higher standard of self-awareness than you were other folks. And, it seems like you are not, you just disagree with their assumptions.
Which is a reasonable position.
Apologies for simply repeating back what you said, only in pedantically expanded form, it’s my way of making sure I understand correctly.
Thanks!
In the NYT and mainstream political discussions, the assumption is that the US is essentially the good guy, though we make mistakes.
Cool, I think I follow. What you don’t like about liberals, as opposed to leftists, is more to do with substance – the particular set of blinders they operate under seem, on net, more harmful than those with other points of view.
What I was trying to understand was if you were, for some reason, holding liberals to a higher standard of self-awareness than you were other folks. And, it seems like you are not, you just disagree with their assumptions.
Which is a reasonable position.
Apologies for simply repeating back what you said, only in pedantically expanded form, it’s my way of making sure I understand correctly.
Thanks!
Russell—
No problem.
Here, btw, is what I think is a fair representation of Trump and Russia. I think he left out the Syrian sanctions.
https://apnews.com/a579c6d03c82ebb67bfd46c8c4ab4360
I don’t think there is any big mystery to Trump cozying up to Putin. He cozies up to any strong man ( in his eyes) who flatters him, which the Russians used to do. But the actual policies have often been pretty harsh against Russia. They don’t like him s much now, though they probably prefer him to Biden.
Trump is personally so chaotic you can make him out to be a lot of things. At TAC, some people ( not Larison) wanted to think Trump was anti- interventionist back in 2016 because he sometimes sounded that way when he wasn’t calling for war crimes. In reality he is both interventionist and anti interventionist. I don’t know what to think of his unwillingness to bomb Iran last year supposedly because it might kill 150 people. He usually isn’t that concerned. Maybe he likes what he perceives as risk free bullying ( Yemen) but pulled back at the thought of a full scale war with Iran that might have wrecked his election chances. But this is Trump. It could be anything.
Russell—
No problem.
Here, btw, is what I think is a fair representation of Trump and Russia. I think he left out the Syrian sanctions.
https://apnews.com/a579c6d03c82ebb67bfd46c8c4ab4360
I don’t think there is any big mystery to Trump cozying up to Putin. He cozies up to any strong man ( in his eyes) who flatters him, which the Russians used to do. But the actual policies have often been pretty harsh against Russia. They don’t like him s much now, though they probably prefer him to Biden.
Trump is personally so chaotic you can make him out to be a lot of things. At TAC, some people ( not Larison) wanted to think Trump was anti- interventionist back in 2016 because he sometimes sounded that way when he wasn’t calling for war crimes. In reality he is both interventionist and anti interventionist. I don’t know what to think of his unwillingness to bomb Iran last year supposedly because it might kill 150 people. He usually isn’t that concerned. Maybe he likes what he perceives as risk free bullying ( Yemen) but pulled back at the thought of a full scale war with Iran that might have wrecked his election chances. But this is Trump. It could be anything.
Last comment
WJ— Yes, a semi- competent President should do something about the bounties.. And an actually competent President wouldn’t have troops in Afghanistan.
The point, which I am now tired of making, is that anti- interventionists take a very dim view of mainstream posturing about the evil deeds of our enemies. We’d take it more seriously if people took our own crimes seriously but there is no sign of that ever happening.
Last comment
WJ— Yes, a semi- competent President should do something about the bounties.. And an actually competent President wouldn’t have troops in Afghanistan.
The point, which I am now tired of making, is that anti- interventionists take a very dim view of mainstream posturing about the evil deeds of our enemies. We’d take it more seriously if people took our own crimes seriously but there is no sign of that ever happening.
in the meantime, bad things keep happening in the world. if our own impurity of spirit stops us from responding, who will?
in the meantime, bad things keep happening in the world. if our own impurity of spirit stops us from responding, who will?
This is a bit more on topic, regarding racism and the perception thereof. Shockingly, I’m linking to a FiveThirtyEight piece.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/when-proof-is-not-enough/
This is a bit more on topic, regarding racism and the perception thereof. Shockingly, I’m linking to a FiveThirtyEight piece.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/when-proof-is-not-enough/
“ world. if our own impurity of spirit stops us from responding, who will?
Dang it, I have to get off. People should notice what we do to others and stop doing those things when they are bad. Cops should stop eating people up (or worse), and we should stop supporting war criminals and imposing sanctions that mostly hurt the civilian population.
And stop thinking that it is the bad people ofer there we should respond to without first noticing the crap we pull and stopping that.
This really is superpower privilege.
Anyway, what is true is that me yelling at people on the internet does nothing, though I also think that is true of most of the conversations here or elsewhere on the net, pleasant or unpleasant. I used to think, back in the Bush era and for some time after, that internet arguments mattered. They might on some level— the press now knows people can yell back at them from all ideological directions, for whatever that is worth. Not sure how much.
“ world. if our own impurity of spirit stops us from responding, who will?
Dang it, I have to get off. People should notice what we do to others and stop doing those things when they are bad. Cops should stop eating people up (or worse), and we should stop supporting war criminals and imposing sanctions that mostly hurt the civilian population.
And stop thinking that it is the bad people ofer there we should respond to without first noticing the crap we pull and stopping that.
This really is superpower privilege.
Anyway, what is true is that me yelling at people on the internet does nothing, though I also think that is true of most of the conversations here or elsewhere on the net, pleasant or unpleasant. I used to think, back in the Bush era and for some time after, that internet arguments mattered. They might on some level— the press now knows people can yell back at them from all ideological directions, for whatever that is worth. Not sure how much.
People should…
in the meantime…
People should…
in the meantime…
Not sure how much.
I’m generally pessimistic about the practical value.
That said, they may help keep people who are concerned about such things a bit more honest and self-aware, and perhaps encourage them to reflect on their own assumptions.
But the bang for the buck does seem pretty low.
Mostly I think people who are interested in any of this stuff like talking about it with other people who are interested in it, perhaps even from whatever point of view.
I’d probably be a gigging jazz vibraphonist by now if it wasn’t for this stuff. Or be way further down my honey-do list. Or maybe even have my end-of-quarter staff work done, instead of having it spill over into July….
Some folks just like to talk. Introverts like to talk online. 😉
Thanks for hanging out with us Donald.
Not sure how much.
I’m generally pessimistic about the practical value.
That said, they may help keep people who are concerned about such things a bit more honest and self-aware, and perhaps encourage them to reflect on their own assumptions.
But the bang for the buck does seem pretty low.
Mostly I think people who are interested in any of this stuff like talking about it with other people who are interested in it, perhaps even from whatever point of view.
I’d probably be a gigging jazz vibraphonist by now if it wasn’t for this stuff. Or be way further down my honey-do list. Or maybe even have my end-of-quarter staff work done, instead of having it spill over into July….
Some folks just like to talk. Introverts like to talk online. 😉
Thanks for hanging out with us Donald.
I don’t endorse it, but nonetheless I think it is an interesting read.
Agreed, GftNC. There’s even a bit in there that McKinney would appreciate.
I don’t endorse it, but nonetheless I think it is an interesting read.
Agreed, GftNC. There’s even a bit in there that McKinney would appreciate.
I also want to apologize to Gftnc for snapping at her, though honestly I am still angry. S this is a somewhat screwed up apology.
Thanks Russell.
Cleek, I will resist the temptation to respond or I will be here forever.
I also want to apologize to Gftnc for snapping at her, though honestly I am still angry. S this is a somewhat screwed up apology.
Thanks Russell.
Cleek, I will resist the temptation to respond or I will be here forever.
stay. stay. there is no leaving.
stay. stay. there is no leaving.
from GFTNC’s bluestocking piece:
LOL.
So much packed into one sentence.
from GFTNC’s bluestocking piece:
LOL.
So much packed into one sentence.
Let me just say here that I agree with Donald where sanctions are concerned, and also with his sempiternal focus on the blindspots in Democratic foreign policy like Yemen and Central America. From a philosophical and idealistic standpoint, I am aligned.
When I shift to looking at things from a game theory standpoint, asking not “what is the best solution?”, but “what can be done tactically in this moment with the resources in hand to improve the situation,” I find myself looking more closely at all manner of compromise solutions, mostly involving limited and temporary coalitions with problematic allies and actions that cause harm, but on a lesser scale for the sake of moving towards a better strategic position.
Big picture that probably looks like cutting fossil fuel consumption and subsidizing renewables to get out from under a bad alliance with Saudi Arabia and to give Israel less leverage to abuse their position in the Middle East, gutting US military spending by reducing it to the size of China’s budget (a 66% cut), which would make it necessary for the US to approach foreign policy from a multilateral standpoint and seeking consensus before acting in all but the most serious circumstances.
And domestically this would mean slashing law enforcement and carceral spending and shifting that budget into treatment, public health, and restorative justice programs.
But Putin still has to be boxed in because his propaganda wing is wreaking havoc through platforms like Facebook and Reddit. That probably means sanctions, but not the broad sanctions that hurt the innocent. Freeze specific accounts and block international deals and financing.
Let me just say here that I agree with Donald where sanctions are concerned, and also with his sempiternal focus on the blindspots in Democratic foreign policy like Yemen and Central America. From a philosophical and idealistic standpoint, I am aligned.
When I shift to looking at things from a game theory standpoint, asking not “what is the best solution?”, but “what can be done tactically in this moment with the resources in hand to improve the situation,” I find myself looking more closely at all manner of compromise solutions, mostly involving limited and temporary coalitions with problematic allies and actions that cause harm, but on a lesser scale for the sake of moving towards a better strategic position.
Big picture that probably looks like cutting fossil fuel consumption and subsidizing renewables to get out from under a bad alliance with Saudi Arabia and to give Israel less leverage to abuse their position in the Middle East, gutting US military spending by reducing it to the size of China’s budget (a 66% cut), which would make it necessary for the US to approach foreign policy from a multilateral standpoint and seeking consensus before acting in all but the most serious circumstances.
And domestically this would mean slashing law enforcement and carceral spending and shifting that budget into treatment, public health, and restorative justice programs.
But Putin still has to be boxed in because his propaganda wing is wreaking havoc through platforms like Facebook and Reddit. That probably means sanctions, but not the broad sanctions that hurt the innocent. Freeze specific accounts and block international deals and financing.
Putin still has to be boxed in because his propaganda wing is wreaking havoc through platforms like Facebook and Reddit. That probably means sanctions, but not the broad sanctions that hurt the innocent. Freeze specific accounts and block international deals and financing.
Happily, Putin (and his fellow kleptocrats, whose support he needs) have big chunks of their wealth cached in the West. Not being dumb enough to invest in Russia; they know how bad things are there. Which means sanctions targetted down to the individual level are possible.
Of course, it still takes work, thanks to money laundering by Trump, et al. But it’s doable.
Putin still has to be boxed in because his propaganda wing is wreaking havoc through platforms like Facebook and Reddit. That probably means sanctions, but not the broad sanctions that hurt the innocent. Freeze specific accounts and block international deals and financing.
Happily, Putin (and his fellow kleptocrats, whose support he needs) have big chunks of their wealth cached in the West. Not being dumb enough to invest in Russia; they know how bad things are there. Which means sanctions targetted down to the individual level are possible.
Of course, it still takes work, thanks to money laundering by Trump, et al. But it’s doable.
I am boggled by the American book-buying public’s response to Black Lives Matter being . . . to buy a book about whiteness written by a white person.
oh yeah? well i just bought and am currently reading the “Autobiography of Malcolm X”.
so far, as a first-hand history of 1940s black nightclub and small-time criminal culture, it’s fascinating.
I am boggled by the American book-buying public’s response to Black Lives Matter being . . . to buy a book about whiteness written by a white person.
oh yeah? well i just bought and am currently reading the “Autobiography of Malcolm X”.
so far, as a first-hand history of 1940s black nightclub and small-time criminal culture, it’s fascinating.
Oh, I forgot to mention that my wife emailed me a link to that Harvard implicit-bias test mentioned in the piece from The Bluestocking. It told me I had a strong preference for white people.
I bungled hitting the right key on one of the questions when black faces were associated with “good” words. Otherwise, I made no mistakes and my speed seemed consistent to me regardless of how the faces and words were associated.
I decided I could take the test ten times and get a number of different results based on random screw-ups, but that it wasn’t worth my time to find out. I probably decided that because of implicit bias.
Oh, I forgot to mention that my wife emailed me a link to that Harvard implicit-bias test mentioned in the piece from The Bluestocking. It told me I had a strong preference for white people.
I bungled hitting the right key on one of the questions when black faces were associated with “good” words. Otherwise, I made no mistakes and my speed seemed consistent to me regardless of how the faces and words were associated.
I decided I could take the test ten times and get a number of different results based on random screw-ups, but that it wasn’t worth my time to find out. I probably decided that because of implicit bias.
I’ve taken that implicit bias test a few times. My implicit bias went down significantly after my course load shifted heavily into classes that had a high percentage of internationals and first-generation minority college students. Working closely with them while they write personal essays seems to have markedly helped my empathy.
Also, what a great bunch of students to teach.
I’ve taken that implicit bias test a few times. My implicit bias went down significantly after my course load shifted heavily into classes that had a high percentage of internationals and first-generation minority college students. Working closely with them while they write personal essays seems to have markedly helped my empathy.
Also, what a great bunch of students to teach.
oh yeah? well i just bought and am currently reading the “Autobiography of Malcolm X”.
LOL…you should have told me. I would have mailed you my paperback copy from 50 years ago.
Everybody should read that book.
oh yeah? well i just bought and am currently reading the “Autobiography of Malcolm X”.
LOL…you should have told me. I would have mailed you my paperback copy from 50 years ago.
Everybody should read that book.
I’ve taken that implicit bias test a few times.
I’m not going to bother since, like Donald Trump, I have no biases of any kind.*
(you can stop laughing any time now)
I’ve taken that implicit bias test a few times.
I’m not going to bother since, like Donald Trump, I have no biases of any kind.*
(you can stop laughing any time now)
When you’re in a hole, dig deeper.
“Trump calls Black Lives Matter a ‘symbol of hate’ as he digs in on race”
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/politics/donald-trump-black-lives-matter-confederate-race/index.html
When you’re in a hole, dig deeper.
“Trump calls Black Lives Matter a ‘symbol of hate’ as he digs in on race”
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/politics/donald-trump-black-lives-matter-confederate-race/index.html
oh yeah? well i just bought and am currently reading the “Autobiography of Malcolm X”.
that’s all good.
My LOL was mostly about my own social context. I live in a very-much-mostly-white suburban town with a higher than average average income, in the bluer end of blue MA, in not-all-that-many-black-folks-but-we-mean-well New England. I have a white collar professional job in an industry where ‘diversity’ mostly means hiring foreign computer science grad students on H-1B visas.
My wife and I attend a UU church that is actually pretty diverse, but more in terms of lifestyles and personal belief systems, less in terms of skin color. We don’t have many black members. We do have our BLM banner hanging over the front entrance, though.
If I wasn’t a musician, I’d probably be so white you’d have to wear sunglasses to cut the glare. Music invented by black and brown people has no doubt saved me from a life of Dockers and polo shirts with the collar popped up. I am, truly, grateful, and no, there is not one bit of sarcasm in that.
Basically, the LOL in response to the quote is me laughing at myself and my cohort. With affection, of course, but also some measure of chagrin.
We mean well, me and my white middle class liberal do-gooder suburban crew. Not infrequently, we even manage to do well.
But sometimes I do have to shake my damned head. And laugh.
so far, as a first-hand history of 1940s black nightclub and small-time criminal culture, it’s fascinating.
It continues to be fascinating, and increasingly consequential.
oh yeah? well i just bought and am currently reading the “Autobiography of Malcolm X”.
that’s all good.
My LOL was mostly about my own social context. I live in a very-much-mostly-white suburban town with a higher than average average income, in the bluer end of blue MA, in not-all-that-many-black-folks-but-we-mean-well New England. I have a white collar professional job in an industry where ‘diversity’ mostly means hiring foreign computer science grad students on H-1B visas.
My wife and I attend a UU church that is actually pretty diverse, but more in terms of lifestyles and personal belief systems, less in terms of skin color. We don’t have many black members. We do have our BLM banner hanging over the front entrance, though.
If I wasn’t a musician, I’d probably be so white you’d have to wear sunglasses to cut the glare. Music invented by black and brown people has no doubt saved me from a life of Dockers and polo shirts with the collar popped up. I am, truly, grateful, and no, there is not one bit of sarcasm in that.
Basically, the LOL in response to the quote is me laughing at myself and my cohort. With affection, of course, but also some measure of chagrin.
We mean well, me and my white middle class liberal do-gooder suburban crew. Not infrequently, we even manage to do well.
But sometimes I do have to shake my damned head. And laugh.
so far, as a first-hand history of 1940s black nightclub and small-time criminal culture, it’s fascinating.
It continues to be fascinating, and increasingly consequential.
Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III may have disappointed the Racist-in-Chief on “the Russia thing”, but they do have lots in common.
The GOP label, for one thing.
–TP
Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III may have disappointed the Racist-in-Chief on “the Russia thing”, but they do have lots in common.
The GOP label, for one thing.
–TP
I’ve taken that implicit bias test once. But I find it biased in the extreme. After all, it only looks at blacks and whites. Like there aren’t any other races out there…? Bit of a blind spot in the test creators, it seems to me.
I’m also not entirely convinced of the validity of the test’s methodology. But that’s a separate issue.
I’ve taken that implicit bias test once. But I find it biased in the extreme. After all, it only looks at blacks and whites. Like there aren’t any other races out there…? Bit of a blind spot in the test creators, it seems to me.
I’m also not entirely convinced of the validity of the test’s methodology. But that’s a separate issue.
wj – there are separate tests for asian, middle eastern, and female implicit bias. I’ve taken them all. Same overall trend with regard to my scores over shifts in student demographics.
As I understand it, the criticisms aimed at the tests do not question the finding so much as they question how much those findings correlate with any actual discriminatory practices – bias does not always transfer into action. My hunch, based on a lot of research into amygdala responses to threat, is that those biases likely transfer more under the effects of adrenaline dump, which makes them especially important for those making use-of-force decision.
wj – there are separate tests for asian, middle eastern, and female implicit bias. I’ve taken them all. Same overall trend with regard to my scores over shifts in student demographics.
As I understand it, the criticisms aimed at the tests do not question the finding so much as they question how much those findings correlate with any actual discriminatory practices – bias does not always transfer into action. My hunch, based on a lot of research into amygdala responses to threat, is that those biases likely transfer more under the effects of adrenaline dump, which makes them especially important for those making use-of-force decision.
Thanks, nous. I didn’t notice those other tests.
Thanks, nous. I didn’t notice those other tests.
I would have mailed you my paperback copy from 50 years ago.
i am forbidden (on penalty of sideeye) from buying new physical books.
I would have mailed you my paperback copy from 50 years ago.
i am forbidden (on penalty of sideeye) from buying new physical books.
Basically, the LOL in response to the quote is me laughing at myself and my cohort. With affection, of course, but also some measure of chagrin.
sure. and yeah, i’m 100% right there with ya. i was just a little giddy to see myself not fitting in with my cohort.
low-ASCII isn’t doing a good job of carrying my tone these days.
Basically, the LOL in response to the quote is me laughing at myself and my cohort. With affection, of course, but also some measure of chagrin.
sure. and yeah, i’m 100% right there with ya. i was just a little giddy to see myself not fitting in with my cohort.
low-ASCII isn’t doing a good job of carrying my tone these days.
I also want to apologize to Gftnc for snapping at her, though honestly I am still angry. S this is a somewhat screwed up apology.
A somewhat screwed up apology is better than no apology at all, though honestly when you examine what I actually said, I find it hard to see why you are angry. But in return, I am sorry if you thought I was being dismissive. These are very hard times, tempers are short, and the truth is I value your input, and the consistency of your ethical standards. And, FWIW, I also like nous’s approach at 02.38 above.
I also want to apologize to Gftnc for snapping at her, though honestly I am still angry. S this is a somewhat screwed up apology.
A somewhat screwed up apology is better than no apology at all, though honestly when you examine what I actually said, I find it hard to see why you are angry. But in return, I am sorry if you thought I was being dismissive. These are very hard times, tempers are short, and the truth is I value your input, and the consistency of your ethical standards. And, FWIW, I also like nous’s approach at 02.38 above.
OK, so I took the Asian American test. My results:
I observe that, over the years, all but one of the women I have dated (including my wife) are Asian Americans. Which, I have to say, makes me enormously skeptical of this result.
OK, so I took the Asian American test. My results:
I observe that, over the years, all but one of the women I have dated (including my wife) are Asian Americans. Which, I have to say, makes me enormously skeptical of this result.
The rest of the world, every single other country, is being given an explicit bias test as we speak, and scoring highly on the “shooting any American who crosses over our borders and tries to enter our countries” exam:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=US+hoarding+remdesivir&filters=tnTID%3a%2259A3C3DF-3C2A-4960-B5EF-4D1F8E68F00D%22+tnVersion%3a%223593729%22+segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%222%22+tnOrder%3a%2271501cef-2fe9-493b-81cb-2356aea45081%22&FORM=BSPN01&crslsl=0
We Americans, with our elected choices, ruined the entire world, and I’m not talking just virus.
We are diseased pariahs. Shut us down. Halt all tourism and trade with us. Abrogate all treaties with us, especially the ones left disallowing nuclear arms development and deployment.
Our spacecraft get anywhere near the space station and shoot them down by our former friends and our enemies.
Blockade us by land, sea, and air.
My traveling days are over, looks like.
Why couldn’t I have been born 20 years earlier and not had the last years of my destroyed by conservative republican home-grown fucking EVIL?
The rest of the world, every single other country, is being given an explicit bias test as we speak, and scoring highly on the “shooting any American who crosses over our borders and tries to enter our countries” exam:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=US+hoarding+remdesivir&filters=tnTID%3a%2259A3C3DF-3C2A-4960-B5EF-4D1F8E68F00D%22+tnVersion%3a%223593729%22+segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%222%22+tnOrder%3a%2271501cef-2fe9-493b-81cb-2356aea45081%22&FORM=BSPN01&crslsl=0
We Americans, with our elected choices, ruined the entire world, and I’m not talking just virus.
We are diseased pariahs. Shut us down. Halt all tourism and trade with us. Abrogate all treaties with us, especially the ones left disallowing nuclear arms development and deployment.
Our spacecraft get anywhere near the space station and shoot them down by our former friends and our enemies.
Blockade us by land, sea, and air.
My traveling days are over, looks like.
Why couldn’t I have been born 20 years earlier and not had the last years of my destroyed by conservative republican home-grown fucking EVIL?
low-ASCII isn’t doing a good job of carrying my tone these days.
I say, when this COVID bullshit is over, it’s time for an ObWi road trip and hang.
low-ASCII isn’t doing a good job of carrying my tone these days.
I say, when this COVID bullshit is over, it’s time for an ObWi road trip and hang.
“Which, I have to say, makes me enormously skeptical of this result.”
Or you’re attracted to dating foreign women? That actually makes sense to me.
“Which, I have to say, makes me enormously skeptical of this result.”
Or you’re attracted to dating foreign women? That actually makes sense to me.
Yeah, except that they have all been native-born Americans. At least 3rd generation.
Yeah, except that they have all been native-born Americans. At least 3rd generation.
Russia should base all of their electoral rat-fucking in Cuba as we approach the canceled election and see what excuse this milquetoast, butt-kissing Cuban shit heel comes up with next:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a33026537/marco-rubio-senate-intelligence-bill-foreign-government-elections/
He’s an immigrant. We don’t really know who is he is, do we, by which I mean, which deep state does he really represent?
It’s all very suspicious. He’s got Watergate break-in written all over him, if Trump decides to go in that direction as a reprise.
Biden on day one should launch a flotilla back to Cuba.
One rowboat with with one guy in it … Marco Rubio … singing Babaloo! with a note pinned to his drawers ‘splainin’ “Please Repatriate”.
Russia should base all of their electoral rat-fucking in Cuba as we approach the canceled election and see what excuse this milquetoast, butt-kissing Cuban shit heel comes up with next:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a33026537/marco-rubio-senate-intelligence-bill-foreign-government-elections/
He’s an immigrant. We don’t really know who is he is, do we, by which I mean, which deep state does he really represent?
It’s all very suspicious. He’s got Watergate break-in written all over him, if Trump decides to go in that direction as a reprise.
Biden on day one should launch a flotilla back to Cuba.
One rowboat with with one guy in it … Marco Rubio … singing Babaloo! with a note pinned to his drawers ‘splainin’ “Please Repatriate”.
NOT going back:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/desantis-florida-not-going-back-coronavirus-reopening-despite-new-cases
Spins chair to look into Camera 2.
In other, possible related news today:
https://www.ktvu.com/news/police-chase-ends-with-suspect-driving-off-cliff-into-ocean-in-santa-cruz
NOT going back:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/desantis-florida-not-going-back-coronavirus-reopening-despite-new-cases
Spins chair to look into Camera 2.
In other, possible related news today:
https://www.ktvu.com/news/police-chase-ends-with-suspect-driving-off-cliff-into-ocean-in-santa-cruz
I observe that, over the years, all but one of the women I have dated (including my wife) are Asian Americans. Which, I have to say, makes me enormously skeptical of this result.
I was surprised to find no implicit association when I just took it. I was expecting a slight bias myself.
But as for the result, there is nothing that says your result is more or less “good” than a different result. I would not have been at all disturbed to find that I associate asian faces with “foreign,” given how many of my students are internationals and how many of my domestic students have spent time in Asia as part of their upbringing. That’s not a bad thing, it’s just a bias and not all biases are bad or are signs of bigotry. All it means is that, on balance, when one sees a face that is phenotypically asian, one assumes that said person is actually from Asia (which is a fair assumption in many CA locales).
The association of blacks with threat is a more troubling implicit bias.
I observe that, over the years, all but one of the women I have dated (including my wife) are Asian Americans. Which, I have to say, makes me enormously skeptical of this result.
I was surprised to find no implicit association when I just took it. I was expecting a slight bias myself.
But as for the result, there is nothing that says your result is more or less “good” than a different result. I would not have been at all disturbed to find that I associate asian faces with “foreign,” given how many of my students are internationals and how many of my domestic students have spent time in Asia as part of their upbringing. That’s not a bad thing, it’s just a bias and not all biases are bad or are signs of bigotry. All it means is that, on balance, when one sees a face that is phenotypically asian, one assumes that said person is actually from Asia (which is a fair assumption in many CA locales).
The association of blacks with threat is a more troubling implicit bias.
WRT bias – I always stress, in my research classes, that bias is not necessarily a negative thing. As a researcher or advocate one can be biased for or against many things in ways that are positive and even commendable. Bias is only a problem when the bias in question is either morally or ethically problematic, or if the bias causes the researcher to treat the subject or data in a way that is not fair to the information in question.
WRT bias – I always stress, in my research classes, that bias is not necessarily a negative thing. As a researcher or advocate one can be biased for or against many things in ways that are positive and even commendable. Bias is only a problem when the bias in question is either morally or ethically problematic, or if the bias causes the researcher to treat the subject or data in a way that is not fair to the information in question.
I observe that, over the years, all but one of the women I have dated (including my wife) are Asian Americans. Why? You probably have more contact with Asians, so you are more cautious in automatically assuming they are from the US, right?
This is the problem with the test I think, the ‘bias’ can be attributed to a ‘true’ bias (ha, I don’t think Asians can really be Americans) or it could be attributed to a better awareness of demographic realities. (here’s someone who looks Asian that I’m meeting with little context, should I assume they are American or Asian?’) Especially nowadays with the American brand undergoing such a beating. Of course, my situation is not the normal one, but an implicit bias test seeks to identify what is there after you strip away all the context, but by being more aware of the context, that implicit bias becomes meaningless.
I observe that, over the years, all but one of the women I have dated (including my wife) are Asian Americans. Why? You probably have more contact with Asians, so you are more cautious in automatically assuming they are from the US, right?
This is the problem with the test I think, the ‘bias’ can be attributed to a ‘true’ bias (ha, I don’t think Asians can really be Americans) or it could be attributed to a better awareness of demographic realities. (here’s someone who looks Asian that I’m meeting with little context, should I assume they are American or Asian?’) Especially nowadays with the American brand undergoing such a beating. Of course, my situation is not the normal one, but an implicit bias test seeks to identify what is there after you strip away all the context, but by being more aware of the context, that implicit bias becomes meaningless.
I’m not understanding why the good/evil of American foreign policy has anything to do with Donald Trump’s refusal to stand up for American soldiers when he is their Commander in Chief. Call me a “liberal”, but that’s his job, perhaps more than any other.
I’m not understanding why the good/evil of American foreign policy has anything to do with Donald Trump’s refusal to stand up for American soldiers when he is their Commander in Chief. Call me a “liberal”, but that’s his job, perhaps more than any other.
lj, actually virtually all the people I know of Asian ancestry are Americans. I knew some foreign students in college, of course. But that was half a century ago.
As for bias, I would expect if anything a small positive bias on my part. Just judging from how I have behaved — and not only with my romantic life.
lj, actually virtually all the people I know of Asian ancestry are Americans. I knew some foreign students in college, of course. But that was half a century ago.
As for bias, I would expect if anything a small positive bias on my part. Just judging from how I have behaved — and not only with my romantic life.
Again, wj, I’m not sure what you are inferring about “bias” here, positive or negative. Nothing in the test result says that people with a bias towards “foreign” have any bias against Asian Americans.
Again, wj, I’m not sure what you are inferring about “bias” here, positive or negative. Nothing in the test result says that people with a bias towards “foreign” have any bias against Asian Americans.
I’ve taken that implicit bias test a few times. My implicit bias went down significantly after my course load shifted heavily into classes that had a high percentage of internationals and first-generation minority college students.
This seems to work against DiAngelo’s idea that people with experiences making them closer to African-Americans aren’t less racist. Assuming that people are open-hearted, and trying to be less racist, their day to day experiences with the “other” makes the “other” less “other.”
I’ve taken that implicit bias test a few times. My implicit bias went down significantly after my course load shifted heavily into classes that had a high percentage of internationals and first-generation minority college students.
This seems to work against DiAngelo’s idea that people with experiences making them closer to African-Americans aren’t less racist. Assuming that people are open-hearted, and trying to be less racist, their day to day experiences with the “other” makes the “other” less “other.”
This seems to work against DiAngelo’s idea that people with experiences making them closer to African-Americans aren’t less racist. Assuming that people are open-hearted, and trying to be less racist, their day to day experiences with the “other” makes the “other” less “other.”
That depends a lot on how DiAngelo is defining and discussing racism. My personal lack of implicit bias does not necessarily translate into positive results at the cultural level any more than a personal bias translates into negative results on a personal level.
And I don’t think that DiAngelo would claim that we cannot work to create a society without racism. I think she is just saying that if a culture or society is racist that one cannot function in that culture without being complicit in that racism.
Being anti-racist, however, is working towards the dismantling of the racism in one’s society, so it is progress towards the right goal.
This seems to work against DiAngelo’s idea that people with experiences making them closer to African-Americans aren’t less racist. Assuming that people are open-hearted, and trying to be less racist, their day to day experiences with the “other” makes the “other” less “other.”
That depends a lot on how DiAngelo is defining and discussing racism. My personal lack of implicit bias does not necessarily translate into positive results at the cultural level any more than a personal bias translates into negative results on a personal level.
And I don’t think that DiAngelo would claim that we cannot work to create a society without racism. I think she is just saying that if a culture or society is racist that one cannot function in that culture without being complicit in that racism.
Being anti-racist, however, is working towards the dismantling of the racism in one’s society, so it is progress towards the right goal.
wj, of virtually all the people you know are Americans, I would think you are more open to the possibilities. It’s like Sartre’s formulation, you are just as biased if you think all Jews are intelligent.
wj, of virtually all the people you know are Americans, I would think you are more open to the possibilities. It’s like Sartre’s formulation, you are just as biased if you think all Jews are intelligent.
Being anti-racist, however, is working towards the dismantling of the racism in one’s society, so it is progress towards the right goal.
Sure, but it seems that one has little to do with the other. One is a “racist” if one has implicit bias. One has preferable policy goals if one supports dismantling structural racism.
It’s great to have both, but the policy goal is probably the most meaningful to society. Eliminating one’s own implicit bias (to whatever extent possible) is certainly personally enriching, one would think.
Being anti-racist, however, is working towards the dismantling of the racism in one’s society, so it is progress towards the right goal.
Sure, but it seems that one has little to do with the other. One is a “racist” if one has implicit bias. One has preferable policy goals if one supports dismantling structural racism.
It’s great to have both, but the policy goal is probably the most meaningful to society. Eliminating one’s own implicit bias (to whatever extent possible) is certainly personally enriching, one would think.
Only certain types of implicit bias would count as “being racist,” but I think we are close in this understanding.
Only certain types of implicit bias would count as “being racist,” but I think we are close in this understanding.
Thanks, nous. I was trying to level this as a critique of DiAngelo (whose lecture I enjoyed, and appreciated). The critique is more as an intellectual exercise, but I did take issue with her dismissal of people’s personal experience of bridging racial divides.
My own [way too limited] experience with other people (African-Americans, people from other countries’ cultures, etc.) suggests that there is an empathy dividend that is attained when that happens. Your experience with students seems similar, although I don’t want to overstate in case I have misunderstood.
Thanks, nous. I was trying to level this as a critique of DiAngelo (whose lecture I enjoyed, and appreciated). The critique is more as an intellectual exercise, but I did take issue with her dismissal of people’s personal experience of bridging racial divides.
My own [way too limited] experience with other people (African-Americans, people from other countries’ cultures, etc.) suggests that there is an empathy dividend that is attained when that happens. Your experience with students seems similar, although I don’t want to overstate in case I have misunderstood.
And I’ll take a swing at Sapient’s question, and if I mistate anything, apologies.
One thing that Americans are ‘blessed’ with is the fact that historical memory seems to count for very little. I’m sure that Putin doesn’t see a dime’s worth of difference between us supplying Stingers to the mujaddin to kill Russians and him paying those taliban to kill US troops.
If this is the line that Trump had to cross to get kicked out, it will probably harden opinions that people who are liberal are happy to have foreigners killed out of sight. I’d tentatively assign that opinion to Donald, and I think that is a fair and sobering thought. After all, after 9-11, we attacked Afghanistan and then Iraq, when the nexus of the attack was the result of a Saudi proxy war based on who was Mohammed’s rightful successor (1300 years baby, that’s some historical memory!) But we don’t do history, so we reach a historical moment when Jared Kushner can read 25 books and believe that is what he needs to fix the problem.
I’d draw a parallel that Donald probably won’t agree with, but it seems the same as the “liberals” that DiAngelo is addressing zeroing in on police reform as the key to dealing with the protests over George Floyd. However, I’m not so clear what the ‘leftists’ want to do that is different, so the analogy breaks down.
And I think this quote, from an article about the Air Force being confronted with all this, presents something that I think is quite probable not just for the Air Force, but the whole country if not the whole world.
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/07/01/goldfein-something-broke-loose-in-the-air-force-after-george-floyds-death/
“History is not on our side here,” Goldfein said. “If we follow history, we’ll get a few things going, and then September will arrive and COVID will return, and flu season will start, and hurricane season will hit … and the election will go into high gear, and we will get distracted and we will put this on the back burner. Shame on us if we let that happen.”
And I’ll take a swing at Sapient’s question, and if I mistate anything, apologies.
One thing that Americans are ‘blessed’ with is the fact that historical memory seems to count for very little. I’m sure that Putin doesn’t see a dime’s worth of difference between us supplying Stingers to the mujaddin to kill Russians and him paying those taliban to kill US troops.
If this is the line that Trump had to cross to get kicked out, it will probably harden opinions that people who are liberal are happy to have foreigners killed out of sight. I’d tentatively assign that opinion to Donald, and I think that is a fair and sobering thought. After all, after 9-11, we attacked Afghanistan and then Iraq, when the nexus of the attack was the result of a Saudi proxy war based on who was Mohammed’s rightful successor (1300 years baby, that’s some historical memory!) But we don’t do history, so we reach a historical moment when Jared Kushner can read 25 books and believe that is what he needs to fix the problem.
I’d draw a parallel that Donald probably won’t agree with, but it seems the same as the “liberals” that DiAngelo is addressing zeroing in on police reform as the key to dealing with the protests over George Floyd. However, I’m not so clear what the ‘leftists’ want to do that is different, so the analogy breaks down.
And I think this quote, from an article about the Air Force being confronted with all this, presents something that I think is quite probable not just for the Air Force, but the whole country if not the whole world.
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/07/01/goldfein-something-broke-loose-in-the-air-force-after-george-floyds-death/
“History is not on our side here,” Goldfein said. “If we follow history, we’ll get a few things going, and then September will arrive and COVID will return, and flu season will start, and hurricane season will hit … and the election will go into high gear, and we will get distracted and we will put this on the back burner. Shame on us if we let that happen.”
Yes, but empathy does not always translate into positive change, especially if one thinks of the end of racism as consisting of a lot of individual consciousness raising and empathy.
There’s a macro/micro problem at work as well, and fixing the macro level does not necessarily follow from fixing the micro.
It sure does help, though, and it makes for a clearer understanding of perspectives that might not otherwise be considered.
This especially runs afoul of the libertarian mindset where everything is reducible to the individual level and fixed through personal liberation.
Comforting myth, but not one that reflects reality.
Yes, but empathy does not always translate into positive change, especially if one thinks of the end of racism as consisting of a lot of individual consciousness raising and empathy.
There’s a macro/micro problem at work as well, and fixing the macro level does not necessarily follow from fixing the micro.
It sure does help, though, and it makes for a clearer understanding of perspectives that might not otherwise be considered.
This especially runs afoul of the libertarian mindset where everything is reducible to the individual level and fixed through personal liberation.
Comforting myth, but not one that reflects reality.
I’m sure that Putin doesn’t see a dime’s worth of difference between us supplying Stingers to the mujaddin to kill Russians and him paying those taliban to kill US troops.
Not sure what Putin thinks or cares about, other than money, white supremacy, misogyny, stifling dissent, hating the United States, power, and other stuff irrelevant to various national interests. Maybe Putin has a grand plan for a new tsarist Russia, or a new Putin Stalinism?
Our effort in Afghanistan back in the day was a transparent cold war ploy to get Russia out of there. What is Russia’s ploy? I don’t think it’s an effort to get our perfunctory few out of Afghanistan. It’s a Trump loyalty test.
This has nothing to do with “America policy bad!” It has to do with Trump sucks Putin at the mercy of American soldiers, publicly. And plenty of Americans say yay.
I’m sure that Putin doesn’t see a dime’s worth of difference between us supplying Stingers to the mujaddin to kill Russians and him paying those taliban to kill US troops.
Not sure what Putin thinks or cares about, other than money, white supremacy, misogyny, stifling dissent, hating the United States, power, and other stuff irrelevant to various national interests. Maybe Putin has a grand plan for a new tsarist Russia, or a new Putin Stalinism?
Our effort in Afghanistan back in the day was a transparent cold war ploy to get Russia out of there. What is Russia’s ploy? I don’t think it’s an effort to get our perfunctory few out of Afghanistan. It’s a Trump loyalty test.
This has nothing to do with “America policy bad!” It has to do with Trump sucks Putin at the mercy of American soldiers, publicly. And plenty of Americans say yay.
Yes, but empathy does not always translate into positive change, especially if one thinks of the end of racism as consisting of a lot of individual consciousness raising and empathy.
I agree, which is why I said that the policy people are the ones with the most meaningful change initiatives, with or without empathy. This sort of negates DiAngelo, who is trying to shape hearts and minds (which isn’t bad at all – people with good hearts and minds are likely to change policy, assuming that they really do have empathy).
Yes, but empathy does not always translate into positive change, especially if one thinks of the end of racism as consisting of a lot of individual consciousness raising and empathy.
I agree, which is why I said that the policy people are the ones with the most meaningful change initiatives, with or without empathy. This sort of negates DiAngelo, who is trying to shape hearts and minds (which isn’t bad at all – people with good hearts and minds are likely to change policy, assuming that they really do have empathy).
I loved that Air Force Times, link, lj. Thank you.
I loved that Air Force Times, link, lj. Thank you.
Loved the AF Times link as well. I could see it motivating Trump to cut its funding, as well as Stars and Stripes.
Loved the AF Times link as well. I could see it motivating Trump to cut its funding, as well as Stars and Stripes.
Cops should stop eating people up (or worse)
I was unaware that it had gotten already that far 😉
Sorry, simply couldn’t refrain.
Cops should stop eating people up (or worse)
I was unaware that it had gotten already that far 😉
Sorry, simply couldn’t refrain.
I encountered these implicit bias tests last semester at the university. It was not limited to ‘racial’ and was in German too.
I have to just say, I am not convinced.
Results were all over the place. I could not see any significant correlation with biases, including those I know to have.
But this could of course be dismissed because I obviously was not doing it right, e.g. too slow reaction times indicating that the answers were not actually spontaneous (but why were they so consistently inconsistent then?).
Imo, I have little trust in this specific test measuring what it is supposed to. I strongly believe that there are implicit biases but doubt that this test is either reliable or valid there(but that’s me just not being objective).
I am aware that I have a very strong bias against the way statistics are used in educational science (the context where I encountered the test).
I encountered these implicit bias tests last semester at the university. It was not limited to ‘racial’ and was in German too.
I have to just say, I am not convinced.
Results were all over the place. I could not see any significant correlation with biases, including those I know to have.
But this could of course be dismissed because I obviously was not doing it right, e.g. too slow reaction times indicating that the answers were not actually spontaneous (but why were they so consistently inconsistent then?).
Imo, I have little trust in this specific test measuring what it is supposed to. I strongly believe that there are implicit biases but doubt that this test is either reliable or valid there(but that’s me just not being objective).
I am aware that I have a very strong bias against the way statistics are used in educational science (the context where I encountered the test).
Freedom fried:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/america-land-pathetic/613747/
Freedom fried:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/america-land-pathetic/613747/
I don’t know whether or not Nigel has mentioned this fascinating development in energy storage, but apropos of nothing, except the future of the human race:
https://energyvault.com/
Bill Gross of IdeaLab, based in commie California, is the financial tech mind behind this, among other start-up ideas.
https://www.marketwatch.com/articles/3-startups-that-could-save-the-planet-from-the-man-behind-overture-and-picasa-51579690800
The thing probably had to be built in foreign Europe because Trump and the American conservative movement thought it was neither hotel, fracking rig, nor nuclear missile silo, so where’s the vig and Jared’s kickback?
Too bad Americans are now too purposefully, and with intent, diseased to cop a visa to visit it.
I don’t know whether or not Nigel has mentioned this fascinating development in energy storage, but apropos of nothing, except the future of the human race:
https://energyvault.com/
Bill Gross of IdeaLab, based in commie California, is the financial tech mind behind this, among other start-up ideas.
https://www.marketwatch.com/articles/3-startups-that-could-save-the-planet-from-the-man-behind-overture-and-picasa-51579690800
The thing probably had to be built in foreign Europe because Trump and the American conservative movement thought it was neither hotel, fracking rig, nor nuclear missile silo, so where’s the vig and Jared’s kickback?
Too bad Americans are now too purposefully, and with intent, diseased to cop a visa to visit it.
From JT’s Atlantic link:
I’m so tired of winning.
From JT’s Atlantic link:
I’m so tired of winning.
Hey, we’re on a par with Russia. For someone desperate for Putin’s approval, that has to be a win.
Hey, we’re on a par with Russia. For someone desperate for Putin’s approval, that has to be a win.
51,097 new cases yesterday. New cases, in one day.
I will never understand the people who support this guy. Ever. The man could piss on their shoes and tell them it’s raining, and they’d thank him for the news and then run and get him an umbrella.
Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump. The Trump family motto.
51,097 new cases yesterday. New cases, in one day.
I will never understand the people who support this guy. Ever. The man could piss on their shoes and tell them it’s raining, and they’d thank him for the news and then run and get him an umbrella.
Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump. The Trump family motto.
Josh Marshall on the numbers.
Good thing we re-opened the economy. Baby needs new shoes.
This country is gonna choke on “you’re not the boss of me”.
We have a lot of issues to sort out, and many of them have solutions. Some of them have a variety of solutions, we can even pick the ones we like best and are more comfortable with.
There is no solution for willful stupidity. It’s like a great big boulder, right there in the middle of the road. Can’t drive around it, can’t drive over it, can’t drive under it.
Can’t go anywhere at all.
This shit is gonna get worse, and worse, and worse, until all the people who support this clown and the (R) knuckleheads like him figure out that they’ve been had. Until they figure out that it’s not raining, that these assholes are in fact pissing on their shoes, and that they need to quit standing there saying thank you sir, may I have some more.
It’s not gonna stop. It’s not just about Trump, it’s about the willful embrace and celebration of impenetrable ignorant self-pitying resentful BS that is his political lifeblood.
When Trump is gone, there will be some other goon in the wings lining up to take it all another step higher. See also, Tom Cotton.
In the entire world – the whole freaking planet – there were about 200K new cases of COVID reported yesterday.
One out of four of those were in the US.
We have about five percent of the population of the planet.
Five percent of the people, 25% of the new cases.
If you look around the room and can’t tell who the chump is, you’re the chump.
Josh Marshall on the numbers.
Good thing we re-opened the economy. Baby needs new shoes.
This country is gonna choke on “you’re not the boss of me”.
We have a lot of issues to sort out, and many of them have solutions. Some of them have a variety of solutions, we can even pick the ones we like best and are more comfortable with.
There is no solution for willful stupidity. It’s like a great big boulder, right there in the middle of the road. Can’t drive around it, can’t drive over it, can’t drive under it.
Can’t go anywhere at all.
This shit is gonna get worse, and worse, and worse, until all the people who support this clown and the (R) knuckleheads like him figure out that they’ve been had. Until they figure out that it’s not raining, that these assholes are in fact pissing on their shoes, and that they need to quit standing there saying thank you sir, may I have some more.
It’s not gonna stop. It’s not just about Trump, it’s about the willful embrace and celebration of impenetrable ignorant self-pitying resentful BS that is his political lifeblood.
When Trump is gone, there will be some other goon in the wings lining up to take it all another step higher. See also, Tom Cotton.
In the entire world – the whole freaking planet – there were about 200K new cases of COVID reported yesterday.
One out of four of those were in the US.
We have about five percent of the population of the planet.
Five percent of the people, 25% of the new cases.
If you look around the room and can’t tell who the chump is, you’re the chump.
When Trump is gone, there will be some other goon in the wings lining up to take it all another step higher. See also, Tom Cotton.
But are the other goons as skillful as conmen as Trump? My sense is that he is exceptionally gifted when it comes to conning the suckers. (Yes, even compared to other politicians. Even populist politicians.)
When Trump is gone, there will be some other goon in the wings lining up to take it all another step higher. See also, Tom Cotton.
But are the other goons as skillful as conmen as Trump? My sense is that he is exceptionally gifted when it comes to conning the suckers. (Yes, even compared to other politicians. Even populist politicians.)
is Trump even that skilled? he seems like an obvious fraud, to me. always has.
i think the GOP is just so committed to being opposed to Democrats that they’ll follow absolutely anyone as long as he hates the left as much as they’re told they have to.
sure, it forces them to take truly absurd positions. but they don’t care because it would be far worse if they agreed with a Democrat.
is Trump even that skilled? he seems like an obvious fraud, to me. always has.
i think the GOP is just so committed to being opposed to Democrats that they’ll follow absolutely anyone as long as he hates the left as much as they’re told they have to.
sure, it forces them to take truly absurd positions. but they don’t care because it would be far worse if they agreed with a Democrat.
This hasn’t aged well:
“America Shouldn’t Have to Play by New York Rules”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/opinion/coronavirus-lockdown.html
I guess it should now, a**hole.
This hasn’t aged well:
“America Shouldn’t Have to Play by New York Rules”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/opinion/coronavirus-lockdown.html
I guess it should now, a**hole.
I should add that I now consider myself lucky to live in NJ, which got hit hard in the northern part that is largely within the NYC metro area. I’m doubly lucky to have been living by some version of New York rules even though my part of NJ wasn’t hit hard early on and is still quiet because of those rules.
I should add that I now consider myself lucky to live in NJ, which got hit hard in the northern part that is largely within the NYC metro area. I’m doubly lucky to have been living by some version of New York rules even though my part of NJ wasn’t hit hard early on and is still quiet because of those rules.
Just when you thought stupid couldn’t get any more stupid.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/alabama-students-throwing-covid-parties-infected-officials/story?id=71552514
A pool to see who can catch covid-19 first??? The mind boggles. How did people this stupid even get into college?
Just when you thought stupid couldn’t get any more stupid.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/alabama-students-throwing-covid-parties-infected-officials/story?id=71552514
A pool to see who can catch covid-19 first??? The mind boggles. How did people this stupid even get into college?
I have a comment stuck in the hopper, I guess, regarding the Alabama deal, with even better suggestions for spreading the virus appended.
wj: not seeing it. (But I did free up the one about energy storage back at 9:14)
I have a comment stuck in the hopper, I guess, regarding the Alabama deal, with even better suggestions for spreading the virus appended.
wj: not seeing it. (But I did free up the one about energy storage back at 9:14)
There is no solution for willful stupidity.
i have several FB friends who post stuff about making masks and doing fun quarantine things with their kids who also post pix of them at bars with big groups of their friends.
we used to ask WTF they were doing. but their rationalizations are endless. and they finally started feeling like we were trying to shame them.
c’est la virus.
There is no solution for willful stupidity.
i have several FB friends who post stuff about making masks and doing fun quarantine things with their kids who also post pix of them at bars with big groups of their friends.
we used to ask WTF they were doing. but their rationalizations are endless. and they finally started feeling like we were trying to shame them.
c’est la virus.
i think the GOP is just so committed to being opposed to Democrats that they’ll follow absolutely anyone as long as he hates the left as much as they’re told they have to.
Almost like there should be a law for this or something…
i think the GOP is just so committed to being opposed to Democrats that they’ll follow absolutely anyone as long as he hates the left as much as they’re told they have to.
Almost like there should be a law for this or something…
Thanks for checking.
Thanks for checking.
Yeah, well the Secret Masters of Obamacare mandated tyrannically (with an extra dollop of tyranny, just for Marty) that made injecting Lysol and Bleach illegal.
Not sure why the Trumpers aren’t all demonstrating their loyalty to He, Trump and injecting injecting injecting.
Maybe they’re having a hard time finding syringes. Time for a GoFundMe?
Yeah, well the Secret Masters of Obamacare mandated tyrannically (with an extra dollop of tyranny, just for Marty) that made injecting Lysol and Bleach illegal.
Not sure why the Trumpers aren’t all demonstrating their loyalty to He, Trump and injecting injecting injecting.
Maybe they’re having a hard time finding syringes. Time for a GoFundMe?
know what happens when there are more sick people than there are hospital beds for them? rationing.
who knew “conservatives” were such fans.
know what happens when there are more sick people than there are hospital beds for them? rationing.
who knew “conservatives” were such fans.
John,
That EnergyVault thing is a nifty idea!
I can think of all sorts of engineering problems they must have had to solve, including how to deal with the wind acting on both the jenga tower and the bricks going up and down. Which probably explains where a lot of the $117.5 million invested so far (per your Marketwatch link) had to be spent.
And I wonder whether their business model is to recoup the money by selling towers at a profit, or by collecting a royalty per kWhr regenerated. As an engineer who has worked for a couple of start-ups with nifty product concepts and lavish funding but which never turned a profit, I like to think about such things in an amateur way in my spare time.
–TP
John,
That EnergyVault thing is a nifty idea!
I can think of all sorts of engineering problems they must have had to solve, including how to deal with the wind acting on both the jenga tower and the bricks going up and down. Which probably explains where a lot of the $117.5 million invested so far (per your Marketwatch link) had to be spent.
And I wonder whether their business model is to recoup the money by selling towers at a profit, or by collecting a royalty per kWhr regenerated. As an engineer who has worked for a couple of start-ups with nifty product concepts and lavish funding but which never turned a profit, I like to think about such things in an amateur way in my spare time.
–TP
Steven Chu is all about long term energy storage via big ponds on hills.
Pump the water up when energy is cheap / plentiful. Let the water flow downhill to generate energy when it’s expensive / scarce.
Freaking gravity. Who knew?
Steven Chu is all about long term energy storage via big ponds on hills.
Pump the water up when energy is cheap / plentiful. Let the water flow downhill to generate energy when it’s expensive / scarce.
Freaking gravity. Who knew?
Death Panels are all the rage. The fewer hospital beds there are, the more likely Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick’s demand that Covid-19 sufferers give up the ghost can be fulfilled.
Genocide comes to America, but through elections, so there’s nothing we can do about it, is there?
The Trump White House also just loosened rules on insurers so that they don’t have to pay for Covid-19 testing required for people when employers force them back to work.
I’m barely keeping my self-control.
Further, Donald Trump personally intervened with the U.S. Park Service to get them to allow fireworks in and around the tinder-dry pine forests surrounding the Mt. Rushmore monument, this after the practice had been banned for a number of years because of the many dozens of fires started by 4th of July celebration year after year in the past.
Trump told them, “what’s to burn, the monument is made of rock”. He studied the situation for … well not at all. He told them it is his dream to have his face carved into the monument one day.
The Lakota Tribe should take scalps this weekend and maybe get his carved face up there in the flesh by next Monday.
That pistol-packing, unmasked superspreader QAnon Republican bar owner in Rifle on the west slope of Colorado, where the servers and bartenders are packing too, who just won the Republican primary race for the House, is roughly a three and a half hour drive from me, which puts her inside an unsafe (for her) social distance from me.
I wonder if I should pay the bar a visit and check out their basement to learn if they are imprisoning little kids down there for the staff’s and the patron’s sexual pleasure.
She requires close inspection by rogue liberal militias, fully masked and armed of course to prevent the little monster from either shooting them or breathing death on them.
I hereby declare I have the God-given power to deputize for such purposes.
Too much EVIL radical conservatism for America to go forward without trouble .. and no one is going to like it.
Death Panels are all the rage. The fewer hospital beds there are, the more likely Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick’s demand that Covid-19 sufferers give up the ghost can be fulfilled.
Genocide comes to America, but through elections, so there’s nothing we can do about it, is there?
The Trump White House also just loosened rules on insurers so that they don’t have to pay for Covid-19 testing required for people when employers force them back to work.
I’m barely keeping my self-control.
Further, Donald Trump personally intervened with the U.S. Park Service to get them to allow fireworks in and around the tinder-dry pine forests surrounding the Mt. Rushmore monument, this after the practice had been banned for a number of years because of the many dozens of fires started by 4th of July celebration year after year in the past.
Trump told them, “what’s to burn, the monument is made of rock”. He studied the situation for … well not at all. He told them it is his dream to have his face carved into the monument one day.
The Lakota Tribe should take scalps this weekend and maybe get his carved face up there in the flesh by next Monday.
That pistol-packing, unmasked superspreader QAnon Republican bar owner in Rifle on the west slope of Colorado, where the servers and bartenders are packing too, who just won the Republican primary race for the House, is roughly a three and a half hour drive from me, which puts her inside an unsafe (for her) social distance from me.
I wonder if I should pay the bar a visit and check out their basement to learn if they are imprisoning little kids down there for the staff’s and the patron’s sexual pleasure.
She requires close inspection by rogue liberal militias, fully masked and armed of course to prevent the little monster from either shooting them or breathing death on them.
I hereby declare I have the God-given power to deputize for such purposes.
Too much EVIL radical conservatism for America to go forward without trouble .. and no one is going to like it.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/07/02/complete-and-total-rage-is-the-only-rational-response/
Yes.
Think I’ll head to the hills this afternoon and hike my rage levels down to manageable levels.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/07/02/complete-and-total-rage-is-the-only-rational-response/
Yes.
Think I’ll head to the hills this afternoon and hike my rage levels down to manageable levels.
Just when you thought stupid couldn’t get any more stupid.
i have friends who teach/admin at UA. they are rather upset and anxious about this story.
Just when you thought stupid couldn’t get any more stupid.
i have friends who teach/admin at UA. they are rather upset and anxious about this story.
predictably, Hermain Cain, who attended Trump’s rally two weeks ago, now has C19
predictably, Hermain Cain, who attended Trump’s rally two weeks ago, now has C19
Talking of unconscious bias, I’m just watching a documentary on Channel 4 called The School that Tried to End Racism”. So interesting, seeing kids (they seem around 12-13) splitting into racial groups and exploring experiences, then reconvening to discuss. None of the white kids, for example, could come up with an instance where anyone had ever said anything to them about their race. As you can imagine, the same was not true for black or Asian kids. I’m in a commercial break….
Talking of unconscious bias, I’m just watching a documentary on Channel 4 called The School that Tried to End Racism”. So interesting, seeing kids (they seem around 12-13) splitting into racial groups and exploring experiences, then reconvening to discuss. None of the white kids, for example, could come up with an instance where anyone had ever said anything to them about their race. As you can imagine, the same was not true for black or Asian kids. I’m in a commercial break….
The fewer hospital beds there are, the more likely Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick’s demand that Covid-19 sufferers give up the ghost can be fulfilled.
One keeps hoping (in vain) that Lt Governor Patrick would demonstrate his leadership talents by giving up the ghost himself.
The fewer hospital beds there are, the more likely Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick’s demand that Covid-19 sufferers give up the ghost can be fulfilled.
One keeps hoping (in vain) that Lt Governor Patrick would demonstrate his leadership talents by giving up the ghost himself.
Big pond on hills are geographically limited, though, russell.
Energy Vault is interesting, and there is perhaps a niche for it. The claimed round trip efficiency of 85% is pretty good. The costs don’t seem all that great, though: “ Piconi estimates that by the time Energy Vault builds its 10th or so 35-MWh plant, it can bring costs down to about $150 per kWh…”
Lithium ion battery storage is pretty well there already (though we’re not going to have enough of those for some time. (Though technology there, both in terms of efficiency of batteries and lithium extraction, is improving steadily.)
All these things are likely to get built, at least in small numbers, as they are very competitive with gas peaked plants – Highview Power, which I posted about previously, is building its first commercial scale system.
Big pond on hills are geographically limited, though, russell.
Energy Vault is interesting, and there is perhaps a niche for it. The claimed round trip efficiency of 85% is pretty good. The costs don’t seem all that great, though: “ Piconi estimates that by the time Energy Vault builds its 10th or so 35-MWh plant, it can bring costs down to about $150 per kWh…”
Lithium ion battery storage is pretty well there already (though we’re not going to have enough of those for some time. (Though technology there, both in terms of efficiency of batteries and lithium extraction, is improving steadily.)
All these things are likely to get built, at least in small numbers, as they are very competitive with gas peaked plants – Highview Power, which I posted about previously, is building its first commercial scale system.
A lot of people I like are admiring this, on Cancel Culture:
https://scroll.in/video/950759/stop-treating-talent-like-it-s-synonymous-with-character-watch-ayishat-akanbi-on-cancel-culture
A lot of people I like are admiring this, on Cancel Culture:
https://scroll.in/video/950759/stop-treating-talent-like-it-s-synonymous-with-character-watch-ayishat-akanbi-on-cancel-culture
know what happens when there are more sick people than there are hospital beds for them? rationing.
My niece is a hospital nurse in Phoenix AZ. This is basically her world right now.
The bit from the pregnant woman talking about how her bones hurt echoes a friend of mine’s experience. He’s in NYC, had the virus during the surge there in April. He was very lucky and somehow had no respiratory problems, but he spent a week flat on his back feeling like he had been beaten over every inch of his body with a bat. His description. And he’s not a guy inclined to wallow in self-pity. Plus extreme fatigue, took him weeks to get back to being able to just walk a few blocks.
The pregnancy thing also echoes a friend’s experience as a midwife in a local hospital in Salem MA. A lot of their patients come from the Dominican community in Salem and a variety of immigrant communities in other nearby cities. About 20% of the births there are from women positive for COVID.
I am literally at a loss to know how to make any sense of any of this. The rest of the country watched NYC stack dead people in refrigerator trucks, watched MA and some other harder hit states go through all of the crap we went through, and basically figured they just did not give a flying fuck.
“America Shouldn’t Have To Play By NYC Rules”
Like the virus gives a shit what your zip code is.
One of the words used in Italian to describe stupidity is “ostinato”. It refers to a particular kind of stupidity. It refers to obstinate, pig-headed, stiff-necked, mulish stupidity. Not a lack of intellect, necessarily, but a determination to persist in unwise thought and action, in spite of any and all attempts to dissuade.
Ostinato. Intransigent, “fuck you, you’re not the boss of me”, willfully embraced intentional stupidity.
They’ll show us!!!
There is no stronger force in the universe.
know what happens when there are more sick people than there are hospital beds for them? rationing.
My niece is a hospital nurse in Phoenix AZ. This is basically her world right now.
The bit from the pregnant woman talking about how her bones hurt echoes a friend of mine’s experience. He’s in NYC, had the virus during the surge there in April. He was very lucky and somehow had no respiratory problems, but he spent a week flat on his back feeling like he had been beaten over every inch of his body with a bat. His description. And he’s not a guy inclined to wallow in self-pity. Plus extreme fatigue, took him weeks to get back to being able to just walk a few blocks.
The pregnancy thing also echoes a friend’s experience as a midwife in a local hospital in Salem MA. A lot of their patients come from the Dominican community in Salem and a variety of immigrant communities in other nearby cities. About 20% of the births there are from women positive for COVID.
I am literally at a loss to know how to make any sense of any of this. The rest of the country watched NYC stack dead people in refrigerator trucks, watched MA and some other harder hit states go through all of the crap we went through, and basically figured they just did not give a flying fuck.
“America Shouldn’t Have To Play By NYC Rules”
Like the virus gives a shit what your zip code is.
One of the words used in Italian to describe stupidity is “ostinato”. It refers to a particular kind of stupidity. It refers to obstinate, pig-headed, stiff-necked, mulish stupidity. Not a lack of intellect, necessarily, but a determination to persist in unwise thought and action, in spite of any and all attempts to dissuade.
Ostinato. Intransigent, “fuck you, you’re not the boss of me”, willfully embraced intentional stupidity.
They’ll show us!!!
There is no stronger force in the universe.
Ostinato. Intransigent, “fuck you, you’re not the boss of me”, willfully embraced intentional stupidity.
read on Twitter: Americans are not equipped for a crisis where the basic rule of survival is being mildly considerate.
there’s something fundamentally wrong with a culture that teaches people to be both deeply self-centered and proudly ignorant.
Ostinato. Intransigent, “fuck you, you’re not the boss of me”, willfully embraced intentional stupidity.
read on Twitter: Americans are not equipped for a crisis where the basic rule of survival is being mildly considerate.
there’s something fundamentally wrong with a culture that teaches people to be both deeply self-centered and proudly ignorant.
Wow, bio-terrorism from the top down AND bayonets:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/joint-chiefs-chairman-confirms-soldiers-were-issued-bayonets-for-dc-protests
Small, limited government that can’t even see its way clear to regulate polluters and find some ventilators and masks sure requires an awful lot of authoritarian state murder and force.
Wow, bio-terrorism from the top down AND bayonets:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/joint-chiefs-chairman-confirms-soldiers-were-issued-bayonets-for-dc-protests
Small, limited government that can’t even see its way clear to regulate polluters and find some ventilators and masks sure requires an awful lot of authoritarian state murder and force.
It really *is* amazing how many words there are in American English for the concept “stupid”.
Probably more words than Eskimos have for “snow”, or Hawaiian’s have for “lava”.
It really *is* amazing how many words there are in American English for the concept “stupid”.
Probably more words than Eskimos have for “snow”, or Hawaiian’s have for “lava”.
Herman Cain, why, geez, not 36 hours ago, coughing up an infected bolus of ignorant republican genocidal bullshit, just before the clots formed and rationing of hospital beds in favor of privileged pizza empire kings overtook the polis:
https://twitter.com/THEHermanCain/status/1278444266881273856?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1278444266881273856%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fdigbysblog.net%2F
Now, remember Charles Murray and Andrew Sullivan, the latter of whom’s marriage will be annulled as Trump Republican anti-homo sapiens crowd the court thanks to Mitch McConnell, spewed forth with the Bell Curve, which if you examine it, looks exactly like the Covid-19 infection and death curves in our hometowns, and brought to you by the same fucks, but leaving that aside, the Republican Party took one look at that intellectual monstrosity and began harvesting, recruiting you might say, from the dumbass white person end of the curve (Sarah Palin and Rand (call me Dagny) Paul stood out down there among the dumbies and the dumbass black person end on the curve, while ignoring the smarty pants know-it-alls of all rasces and creeds and genders at the curve’s apex, and they only came up with Herman Cain and the other guy, Amarosa whatshisgrift) and now here we are.
Herman can’t breath, and not a knee in sight.
Herman Cain, why, geez, not 36 hours ago, coughing up an infected bolus of ignorant republican genocidal bullshit, just before the clots formed and rationing of hospital beds in favor of privileged pizza empire kings overtook the polis:
https://twitter.com/THEHermanCain/status/1278444266881273856?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1278444266881273856%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fdigbysblog.net%2F
Now, remember Charles Murray and Andrew Sullivan, the latter of whom’s marriage will be annulled as Trump Republican anti-homo sapiens crowd the court thanks to Mitch McConnell, spewed forth with the Bell Curve, which if you examine it, looks exactly like the Covid-19 infection and death curves in our hometowns, and brought to you by the same fucks, but leaving that aside, the Republican Party took one look at that intellectual monstrosity and began harvesting, recruiting you might say, from the dumbass white person end of the curve (Sarah Palin and Rand (call me Dagny) Paul stood out down there among the dumbies and the dumbass black person end on the curve, while ignoring the smarty pants know-it-alls of all rasces and creeds and genders at the curve’s apex, and they only came up with Herman Cain and the other guy, Amarosa whatshisgrift) and now here we are.
Herman can’t breath, and not a knee in sight.
there’s something fundamentally wrong with a culture that teaches people to be both deeply self-centered and proudly ignorant.
Amen. Fortunately, it’s not actually American culture that’s that way. Just a sub-culture within it that is the Trumpists. Which is the only reason there is any hope for our country.
there’s something fundamentally wrong with a culture that teaches people to be both deeply self-centered and proudly ignorant.
Amen. Fortunately, it’s not actually American culture that’s that way. Just a sub-culture within it that is the Trumpists. Which is the only reason there is any hope for our country.
As Napoleon or one close to him allegedly said:
‘You can do anything with bayonets except sit on them’
Under Obama there were complaints that there were not enough bayonets (although Obama’s statement about that scarcity got contradicted by military experts or those that play those in the media).
Who introduced these French girlie things (la baïonnette) in the first place to US armed forces, btw?
As Napoleon or one close to him allegedly said:
‘You can do anything with bayonets except sit on them’
Under Obama there were complaints that there were not enough bayonets (although Obama’s statement about that scarcity got contradicted by military experts or those that play those in the media).
Who introduced these French girlie things (la baïonnette) in the first place to US armed forces, btw?
Thanks to Hartmut for that trip back.
https://www.politico.com/story/2012/10/sharp-reaction-to-obamas-bayonet-082730
https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2012/oct/23/bayonets-obama-pointed-political-comment
Oh, for a time when all we had to worry about was whether the Marines still did bayonet drills….
Thanks to Hartmut for that trip back.
https://www.politico.com/story/2012/10/sharp-reaction-to-obamas-bayonet-082730
https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2012/oct/23/bayonets-obama-pointed-political-comment
Oh, for a time when all we had to worry about was whether the Marines still did bayonet drills….
I don’t understand why our citizenry (izzat the word we’re still using?) can’t carry fixed bayonets in public:
https://www.tmz.com/2020/07/02/white-woman-pulls-gun-black-mother-detroit-michigan-parking-lot-chipotle/
https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/30/nasty-brawl-fight-breaks-out-little-rock-arkansas-restaurant-social-distancing/
Word has it that the Colorado QAnon bar owner and House of Representatives candidate (and future Republican Presidential candidate) in Rifle, Colorado will be issuing fixed bayonets as well to her servers and bartenders, which can also be requested by patrons to employ as cutlery and drink stirrers during their meals.
I do hope she issues silencers on those pistols she and her staff wield at the workplace to meet town noise ordinances, tyrannical as the latter may be.
If there is anything I hate while enjoying a quiet drink at the bar, it’s the ratatattat of semi-automatic gunfire.
If I need to ask to admonish management over a tough cut of beef or watered down drinks, I’ll also enjoy hoisting the candidate on her own petard when she comes to the table, bayonet fixed, and tells me if I don’t like it, I can vacate the premises.
This may well be the type of saloon you visit and to so-to-speak clear the decks of Covid-spreaders before you enter, you remove the pin from a hand grenade and roll the thing into the joint, seppin a bit to either side of the entry to avoid the shrapnel.
There’s something deeply satisfying in the mythic American character about stepping over human body parts as you belly up to the bar and slap a bill down and demand a towel from the bar keep to wipe the gore offen yer spurs.
Safety first, is my motto.
And then cleanliness.
I don’t understand why our citizenry (izzat the word we’re still using?) can’t carry fixed bayonets in public:
https://www.tmz.com/2020/07/02/white-woman-pulls-gun-black-mother-detroit-michigan-parking-lot-chipotle/
https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/30/nasty-brawl-fight-breaks-out-little-rock-arkansas-restaurant-social-distancing/
Word has it that the Colorado QAnon bar owner and House of Representatives candidate (and future Republican Presidential candidate) in Rifle, Colorado will be issuing fixed bayonets as well to her servers and bartenders, which can also be requested by patrons to employ as cutlery and drink stirrers during their meals.
I do hope she issues silencers on those pistols she and her staff wield at the workplace to meet town noise ordinances, tyrannical as the latter may be.
If there is anything I hate while enjoying a quiet drink at the bar, it’s the ratatattat of semi-automatic gunfire.
If I need to ask to admonish management over a tough cut of beef or watered down drinks, I’ll also enjoy hoisting the candidate on her own petard when she comes to the table, bayonet fixed, and tells me if I don’t like it, I can vacate the premises.
This may well be the type of saloon you visit and to so-to-speak clear the decks of Covid-spreaders before you enter, you remove the pin from a hand grenade and roll the thing into the joint, seppin a bit to either side of the entry to avoid the shrapnel.
There’s something deeply satisfying in the mythic American character about stepping over human body parts as you belly up to the bar and slap a bill down and demand a towel from the bar keep to wipe the gore offen yer spurs.
Safety first, is my motto.
And then cleanliness.
Cleanliness is more important, being next to godliness and all. Whatever that statement means. Is it literally beside it, is it next to it on the list or is it literally next on the list. Or was John Wesley paraphrasing Sir Francis Bacon?
Safety is overrated. Why it is a surprise that a nation that ha traditionally detested seatbelts, helmets, speed limits, and almost everything else that might stop one from dying would spawn a generation of self centered pandemic disbelievers is beyond me.
The, they were comforted by the experts talking endlessly about the lack of danger to young people and how the summer would be better before the resurgence on the fall. The average age of the new cases in Florida is 34. The only possible upside is that they may actually die at a lower rate. The three worst states were in full summer, over 90 degrees every day, when they reopened. But the 20 – 30 year olds never closed. No matter what the rules or advisories their FB was full of beaches, boating, and partying as they collected unemployment and felt no fear. I remember when that could have been me, vaquely.
Then there old people for whom every day could be their last able bodied day not missing a thing because living in isolation isnt preferable to dying.
There is no part of this that surprises me, or particularly upsets me except the virus itself. And the judgemental nature of those who are outraged by the people acting wholly American, just about any way you assess it,
I guess that’s a random rant.
Cleanliness is more important, being next to godliness and all. Whatever that statement means. Is it literally beside it, is it next to it on the list or is it literally next on the list. Or was John Wesley paraphrasing Sir Francis Bacon?
Safety is overrated. Why it is a surprise that a nation that ha traditionally detested seatbelts, helmets, speed limits, and almost everything else that might stop one from dying would spawn a generation of self centered pandemic disbelievers is beyond me.
The, they were comforted by the experts talking endlessly about the lack of danger to young people and how the summer would be better before the resurgence on the fall. The average age of the new cases in Florida is 34. The only possible upside is that they may actually die at a lower rate. The three worst states were in full summer, over 90 degrees every day, when they reopened. But the 20 – 30 year olds never closed. No matter what the rules or advisories their FB was full of beaches, boating, and partying as they collected unemployment and felt no fear. I remember when that could have been me, vaquely.
Then there old people for whom every day could be their last able bodied day not missing a thing because living in isolation isnt preferable to dying.
There is no part of this that surprises me, or particularly upsets me except the virus itself. And the judgemental nature of those who are outraged by the people acting wholly American, just about any way you assess it,
I guess that’s a random rant.
I think the assumption that covid-19 would fade in the warmer weather badly missed the reason why.
In the northwest (and northern Midwest) it’s cold in the winter, and people congregate inside. In summer, they go outside, which automatically increases the social distance. Which, in turn, could lead to less transmission.
But in the sun belt, we have the opposite. In winter, people are outside more. Come summer, everybody moves indoors to avoid the heat. Leading to less social distance and more transmission.
And, indeed, that looks like pretty much what we are seeing. There was a big spike in the northwest in the winter; now fading in the summer. And the south saw fewer cases in the winter; now spiking in the summer. Utterly predictable. Unfortunately, not amenable to simplistic, nationwide, characterisation.
I think the assumption that covid-19 would fade in the warmer weather badly missed the reason why.
In the northwest (and northern Midwest) it’s cold in the winter, and people congregate inside. In summer, they go outside, which automatically increases the social distance. Which, in turn, could lead to less transmission.
But in the sun belt, we have the opposite. In winter, people are outside more. Come summer, everybody moves indoors to avoid the heat. Leading to less social distance and more transmission.
And, indeed, that looks like pretty much what we are seeing. There was a big spike in the northwest in the winter; now fading in the summer. And the south saw fewer cases in the winter; now spiking in the summer. Utterly predictable. Unfortunately, not amenable to simplistic, nationwide, characterisation.
“And the judgemental nature of those who are outraged by the people acting wholly American, just about any way you assess it.”
Being judgemental and outraged IS acting wholly American too. And getting your own show to broadcast the fact has fine tuned the wholly-ness of it.
You might say it has been our viral raison d’etre from the get go.
“The(n), they were comforted by the experts talking endlessly about the lack of danger to young people and how the summer would be better before the resurgence on the fall.”
By “some” experts, who may or may not have been trying to comfort anyone and who I expect at the time had to blue sky something or other when a microphone was shoved in front of their faces for comment.
They were merely citing their experience of the behavior of previous virus outbreaks, which is all science can do, in fact that is what science does in its provisional way, unlike the fatuous certainties of the science-phobic.
Anyone who trying to keep informed would have noticed that geographic locations in warmer climates, such as Singapore and Mexico were suffering from outbreaks as well.
And Anthony Fauci has stated that he has never seen a virus like this one, that can be so infectious and transmittable from otherwise asymptomatic hosts, who themselves can remain asymptomatic for the duration of their infection.
“Then there old people for whom every day could be their last able bodied day not missing a thing because living in isolation isn’t preferable to dying.”
I get that. But when I decide to commit suicide by jumping out of window, I’m going to try to do it at a time when I won’t land on a person on the sidewalk below.
Even suicide has its courtesy protocols in sane societies.
And until the fatuously certain among us croak and report back to me with at least an outline of eternal oblivion, I’m going solo, except for grocery shopping and solitary hiking and sitting in my apartment with a book in one hand and a drink in the other for the duration.
“I remember when that could have been me, vaquely.”
Me too. I mean, about me, not you. I was too self-centered to even know or care what you were doing back then. I’d have given you the Covid-19 out of sheer indifferent carelessness.
But I’m only tangentially and residually American now that I’ve made it this far, I guess.
Though my all-American outrage gland has not let up on its secretions over time.
“And the judgemental nature of those who are outraged by the people acting wholly American, just about any way you assess it.”
Being judgemental and outraged IS acting wholly American too. And getting your own show to broadcast the fact has fine tuned the wholly-ness of it.
You might say it has been our viral raison d’etre from the get go.
“The(n), they were comforted by the experts talking endlessly about the lack of danger to young people and how the summer would be better before the resurgence on the fall.”
By “some” experts, who may or may not have been trying to comfort anyone and who I expect at the time had to blue sky something or other when a microphone was shoved in front of their faces for comment.
They were merely citing their experience of the behavior of previous virus outbreaks, which is all science can do, in fact that is what science does in its provisional way, unlike the fatuous certainties of the science-phobic.
Anyone who trying to keep informed would have noticed that geographic locations in warmer climates, such as Singapore and Mexico were suffering from outbreaks as well.
And Anthony Fauci has stated that he has never seen a virus like this one, that can be so infectious and transmittable from otherwise asymptomatic hosts, who themselves can remain asymptomatic for the duration of their infection.
“Then there old people for whom every day could be their last able bodied day not missing a thing because living in isolation isn’t preferable to dying.”
I get that. But when I decide to commit suicide by jumping out of window, I’m going to try to do it at a time when I won’t land on a person on the sidewalk below.
Even suicide has its courtesy protocols in sane societies.
And until the fatuously certain among us croak and report back to me with at least an outline of eternal oblivion, I’m going solo, except for grocery shopping and solitary hiking and sitting in my apartment with a book in one hand and a drink in the other for the duration.
“I remember when that could have been me, vaquely.”
Me too. I mean, about me, not you. I was too self-centered to even know or care what you were doing back then. I’d have given you the Covid-19 out of sheer indifferent carelessness.
But I’m only tangentially and residually American now that I’ve made it this far, I guess.
Though my all-American outrage gland has not let up on its secretions over time.
JT:”But when I decide to commit suicide by jumping out of window, I’m going to try to do it at a time when I won’t land on a person on the sidewalk below.”
You won’t get into Valhalla with an attitude like that.
Leave a better world behind by removing some RWNJ’s on your way out.
JT:”But when I decide to commit suicide by jumping out of window, I’m going to try to do it at a time when I won’t land on a person on the sidewalk below.”
You won’t get into Valhalla with an attitude like that.
Leave a better world behind by removing some RWNJ’s on your way out.
people acting wholly American
I recognize the truth of this, and it also makes me profoundly sad that belligerent reckless unnecessary pointless stupidity is such a recognizable national trait. Let alone that it is claimed as some sacred inalienable right, something affirmed in our founding documents.
I was a dumb-ass too, when I was younger. Certainly in my 20’s, probably into my 30’s. The thing about being a dumb-ass is that you want to grow out of it. It’s not something to celebrate. Dope-slaps are a better response.
You telling me that is what you think “being American” is all about? Out of all of the things we could point to in our history and national character, “you’re not the boss of me” is what we want to embrace as the thing that makes us who we are?
If we can’t do better than that, we need to re-think our place in the world and just embrace a new role as dangerous pariah state. A nation of spoiled children.
As of yesterday, 131,485 dead from COVID in the US. In half a year.
57,236 new cases in one day. One day.
It’s fine to be a stupid kid running around acting like a numbskull. You’ll probably grow out of it.
It’s not fine to be a nation of stupid kids running around like numbskulls.
We need adults. People with the capacity and willingness to lead, to accept responsibility and require it of others, to articulate and advocate for worthwhile values.
Grown ups.
We don’t need dumb-ass knucklehead spoiled children.
57,236 new cases *in one day*. You bet your ass I’m being judgemental.
Judgement – discretion, maturity, discernment, recognizing that some things are good and some are bad, calling people to account for bad behavior – is called for.
Children think the world is all about them. Adults become adults by figuring out that it’s not.
Time for folks to grow the hell up.
people acting wholly American
I recognize the truth of this, and it also makes me profoundly sad that belligerent reckless unnecessary pointless stupidity is such a recognizable national trait. Let alone that it is claimed as some sacred inalienable right, something affirmed in our founding documents.
I was a dumb-ass too, when I was younger. Certainly in my 20’s, probably into my 30’s. The thing about being a dumb-ass is that you want to grow out of it. It’s not something to celebrate. Dope-slaps are a better response.
You telling me that is what you think “being American” is all about? Out of all of the things we could point to in our history and national character, “you’re not the boss of me” is what we want to embrace as the thing that makes us who we are?
If we can’t do better than that, we need to re-think our place in the world and just embrace a new role as dangerous pariah state. A nation of spoiled children.
As of yesterday, 131,485 dead from COVID in the US. In half a year.
57,236 new cases in one day. One day.
It’s fine to be a stupid kid running around acting like a numbskull. You’ll probably grow out of it.
It’s not fine to be a nation of stupid kids running around like numbskulls.
We need adults. People with the capacity and willingness to lead, to accept responsibility and require it of others, to articulate and advocate for worthwhile values.
Grown ups.
We don’t need dumb-ass knucklehead spoiled children.
57,236 new cases *in one day*. You bet your ass I’m being judgemental.
Judgement – discretion, maturity, discernment, recognizing that some things are good and some are bad, calling people to account for bad behavior – is called for.
Children think the world is all about them. Adults become adults by figuring out that it’s not.
Time for folks to grow the hell up.
The(n), they were comforted by the experts talking endlessly about the lack of danger to young people and how the summer would be better before the resurgence on the fall.
I do remember quite a lot about the former (young people), but about the latter (summer being better) I think that was very seriously caveated, at least here in the UK. In fact, my memory is that the only person really touting it was Trump, along with his endorsement of that wonder drug hydroxychloroquine, and before he theorised about the possibility of injecting bleach.
The(n), they were comforted by the experts talking endlessly about the lack of danger to young people and how the summer would be better before the resurgence on the fall.
I do remember quite a lot about the former (young people), but about the latter (summer being better) I think that was very seriously caveated, at least here in the UK. In fact, my memory is that the only person really touting it was Trump, along with his endorsement of that wonder drug hydroxychloroquine, and before he theorised about the possibility of injecting bleach.
“Leave a better world behind by removing some RWNJ’s on your way out.”
I’m too chicken to kill myself, but the time is coming when removing RWNJ’s will be a responsibility of anyone who fancies themselves wholly American:
https://www.newsweek.com/how-trump-could-lose-election-still-remain-president-opinion-1513975
“Leave a better world behind by removing some RWNJ’s on your way out.”
I’m too chicken to kill myself, but the time is coming when removing RWNJ’s will be a responsibility of anyone who fancies themselves wholly American:
https://www.newsweek.com/how-trump-could-lose-election-still-remain-president-opinion-1513975
That’s a great explanation wj, now everyone ar Obwi and 12 others have heard it.
And yes, some hotspots were in warm climates, I’m absolutely certain my 21 year old grandson has no idea that’s true. He can find a liquor store, his local dealer, the beach and 20 friends pretty much anytime he wants.
My greatest disappointment was to find out THC, or even CBD, wasn’t an effective treatment for covid. It does help with the outrage when mixed with a mountain valley view.
That’s a great explanation wj, now everyone ar Obwi and 12 others have heard it.
And yes, some hotspots were in warm climates, I’m absolutely certain my 21 year old grandson has no idea that’s true. He can find a liquor store, his local dealer, the beach and 20 friends pretty much anytime he wants.
My greatest disappointment was to find out THC, or even CBD, wasn’t an effective treatment for covid. It does help with the outrage when mixed with a mountain valley view.
Luckily russell it is not the only thing that is wholly American.
Randomly this morning I wondered why the people in the Massachusetts were considered liberal? In most ways, outside some fairly specific policy options, they are personally incredibly conservative. I am a wild eyed liberal in most ways.
It was just a thought on the inadequacy of labels.
Luckily russell it is not the only thing that is wholly American.
Randomly this morning I wondered why the people in the Massachusetts were considered liberal? In most ways, outside some fairly specific policy options, they are personally incredibly conservative. I am a wild eyed liberal in most ways.
It was just a thought on the inadequacy of labels.
It could be that the smart Covid-19 virus has found a chink in the American immune system, the cussed whollyness of our purported national character.
https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0092-8674%2820%2930820-5
To sum up this as yet provisional study, Anthony Fauci says the virus might be mutating to become more transmissible and infectious and with larger viral loads delivered person to person.
I expect before we learn anything more conclusively along these lines, Fauci will be fired by the Devil, or otherwise silenced by the likes of racist, fascist, Devil’s minion Tucker Carlson, and William Barr’s Justice Department will be laying in massive stores of bayonets as Trump names Barr the Covid-19 Superspreader Czar.
Masks we can’t find, but boy oh boy, it’s amazing the trainloads of authoritarian bayonets we can lay our hands on at a moment’s notice.
I hope none of this happens, believe me.
But I am fucking frightened.
And now I’m going to threaten to shut up, because it’s time to make a space here for Sebastian’s post in the works about his mother.
It could be that the smart Covid-19 virus has found a chink in the American immune system, the cussed whollyness of our purported national character.
https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0092-8674%2820%2930820-5
To sum up this as yet provisional study, Anthony Fauci says the virus might be mutating to become more transmissible and infectious and with larger viral loads delivered person to person.
I expect before we learn anything more conclusively along these lines, Fauci will be fired by the Devil, or otherwise silenced by the likes of racist, fascist, Devil’s minion Tucker Carlson, and William Barr’s Justice Department will be laying in massive stores of bayonets as Trump names Barr the Covid-19 Superspreader Czar.
Masks we can’t find, but boy oh boy, it’s amazing the trainloads of authoritarian bayonets we can lay our hands on at a moment’s notice.
I hope none of this happens, believe me.
But I am fucking frightened.
And now I’m going to threaten to shut up, because it’s time to make a space here for Sebastian’s post in the works about his mother.
there’s a lot about this virus we don’t know.
why NYC, but not Chicago, Tokyo, London or any of the other big cities in temperate areas? why does it look like flu in some people but a circulatory disease in others? why do some show no signs at all? why do some keep testing positive for weeks after symptoms fade? why do symptoms not fade for some?
but the blubbering ignoramus standing there on TV making up nonsense about bleach injections and other quackery, touting sunshine and miracles, with a proudly anti-expert TV network backing him up and telling everybody “It’s Over!” for three months has killed a lot of people.
it’s one thing to be a proud and belligerent dumbass. it’s another to be told belligerent dumbassery is the True American Way.
there’s a lot about this virus we don’t know.
why NYC, but not Chicago, Tokyo, London or any of the other big cities in temperate areas? why does it look like flu in some people but a circulatory disease in others? why do some show no signs at all? why do some keep testing positive for weeks after symptoms fade? why do symptoms not fade for some?
but the blubbering ignoramus standing there on TV making up nonsense about bleach injections and other quackery, touting sunshine and miracles, with a proudly anti-expert TV network backing him up and telling everybody “It’s Over!” for three months has killed a lot of people.
it’s one thing to be a proud and belligerent dumbass. it’s another to be told belligerent dumbassery is the True American Way.
Even suicide has its courtesy protocols in sane societies
Tell that to the numerous guys throwing themselves in front of moving trains.
Most do it where the trains are not at full speed (at the entry or exit points of stations mostly), so it’s very likely not to be a quick end. One would think that that should by now be common knowledge.
That means that they are stupid, ignorant and very likely quite lazy (or they would walk a bit up or down the tracks to get hit by a train moving faster).
But what angers me most is that they don’t waste any thoughts on the engine drivers they are likely going to traumatize. In Germany candidates for the job get a serious warning now in advance that they can expect several of such cases (3 on average) during their career and that there is NOTHING they can do about it. But even that foreknowledge that it will happen and not be their fault and they will not get blamed and, if they wish so, get a transfer to another position in the company afterwards, it does not help to avoid or get rid of the feeling of guilt.
Yes, imo these types of suiciders are to a large degree digestive rear exits.
I make a partial exception for engine drivers that jump in front of their own trains, provided there is no one else onboard and they took care that it will not become a runaway train scenario. Yes, some guys managed that feat.
Even suicide has its courtesy protocols in sane societies
Tell that to the numerous guys throwing themselves in front of moving trains.
Most do it where the trains are not at full speed (at the entry or exit points of stations mostly), so it’s very likely not to be a quick end. One would think that that should by now be common knowledge.
That means that they are stupid, ignorant and very likely quite lazy (or they would walk a bit up or down the tracks to get hit by a train moving faster).
But what angers me most is that they don’t waste any thoughts on the engine drivers they are likely going to traumatize. In Germany candidates for the job get a serious warning now in advance that they can expect several of such cases (3 on average) during their career and that there is NOTHING they can do about it. But even that foreknowledge that it will happen and not be their fault and they will not get blamed and, if they wish so, get a transfer to another position in the company afterwards, it does not help to avoid or get rid of the feeling of guilt.
Yes, imo these types of suiciders are to a large degree digestive rear exits.
I make a partial exception for engine drivers that jump in front of their own trains, provided there is no one else onboard and they took care that it will not become a runaway train scenario. Yes, some guys managed that feat.
“it’s another to be told belligerent dumbassery is the True American Way.”
I actually don’t think it is the True American Way.
But it has been promoted by the belligerent assholes in the conservative movement for 40-plus years as being exactly that, and then a plurality of the American people went out and found the incarnation and apotheosis of belligerent dumbassery, and decided to govern the rest of us with it as a sort of nationally declared religion of asshat catastrophe.
I favor going back to what use to be considered the True American Way, a barely competent, small time-corrupt, one step forward, and one half step back muddling through it.
“it’s another to be told belligerent dumbassery is the True American Way.”
I actually don’t think it is the True American Way.
But it has been promoted by the belligerent assholes in the conservative movement for 40-plus years as being exactly that, and then a plurality of the American people went out and found the incarnation and apotheosis of belligerent dumbassery, and decided to govern the rest of us with it as a sort of nationally declared religion of asshat catastrophe.
I favor going back to what use to be considered the True American Way, a barely competent, small time-corrupt, one step forward, and one half step back muddling through it.
Luckily russell it is not the only thing that is wholly American.
For this, we can all give thanks.
Randomly this morning I wondered why the people in the Massachusetts were considered liberal?
You’re not the first, and will not be the last, to ask this question. It is a puzzle.
We’re yankees. We’re into the whole civic virtue thing. Not everybody is, we are. More or less.
It undoubtedly annoys the hell out of everyone else, who would prefer to not be tread upon in their pursuit of a life free of seat belts, speed limits, and similar.
A chacun son gout.
I’m not sure anyone in MA really cares all that much if your grandson goes to the beach and gets high with his buddies. We just think it’s kind of dumb. It makes us shake our heads and think “WTF??”.
Hope he stays safe and well.
It was just a thought on the inadequacy of labels.
A thing to keep in mind, next time you want to talk about “the left”.
Luckily russell it is not the only thing that is wholly American.
For this, we can all give thanks.
Randomly this morning I wondered why the people in the Massachusetts were considered liberal?
You’re not the first, and will not be the last, to ask this question. It is a puzzle.
We’re yankees. We’re into the whole civic virtue thing. Not everybody is, we are. More or less.
It undoubtedly annoys the hell out of everyone else, who would prefer to not be tread upon in their pursuit of a life free of seat belts, speed limits, and similar.
A chacun son gout.
I’m not sure anyone in MA really cares all that much if your grandson goes to the beach and gets high with his buddies. We just think it’s kind of dumb. It makes us shake our heads and think “WTF??”.
Hope he stays safe and well.
It was just a thought on the inadequacy of labels.
A thing to keep in mind, next time you want to talk about “the left”.
Randomly this morning I wondered why the people in the Massachusetts were considered liberal?
You’re not the first, and will not be the last, to ask this question. It is a puzzle.
I’m ‘from’ Wisconsin’, though living there from 0-2 really doesn’t mean that. But I was always taken by the fact that my home state (which was only that because my parents, who were from far off places, met in the middle) was a bastion of the right thinking left. Robert LaFollette! The Wisconsin Idea! 1st worker’s comp law, first for direct election of senators, 1st progressive state income tax! Yeah, a little bump with Joe McCarthy, but no one’s perfect.
But then came Marathon man Paul Ryan, and Scott dumbass Walker. https://progressive.org/magazine/the-undoing-of-progressive-wisconsin/
Now, we circle around, with George Floyd’s death happening in next door Minneapolis. But, while I was patting myself on the back for being born in a section of the country that was so liberal, I was missing a big part of the picture.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/the-minnesota-paradox-how-race-divides-prosperous-minneapolis
The seeds of problems are always in the soil, you just have to make sure you weed the garden regularly and not let that shit get out of hand.
Randomly this morning I wondered why the people in the Massachusetts were considered liberal?
You’re not the first, and will not be the last, to ask this question. It is a puzzle.
I’m ‘from’ Wisconsin’, though living there from 0-2 really doesn’t mean that. But I was always taken by the fact that my home state (which was only that because my parents, who were from far off places, met in the middle) was a bastion of the right thinking left. Robert LaFollette! The Wisconsin Idea! 1st worker’s comp law, first for direct election of senators, 1st progressive state income tax! Yeah, a little bump with Joe McCarthy, but no one’s perfect.
But then came Marathon man Paul Ryan, and Scott dumbass Walker. https://progressive.org/magazine/the-undoing-of-progressive-wisconsin/
Now, we circle around, with George Floyd’s death happening in next door Minneapolis. But, while I was patting myself on the back for being born in a section of the country that was so liberal, I was missing a big part of the picture.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/the-minnesota-paradox-how-race-divides-prosperous-minneapolis
The seeds of problems are always in the soil, you just have to make sure you weed the garden regularly and not let that shit get out of hand.
Meanwhile, here in the People’s Republic, holiday weekend traffic bound for Cape Code is returning to normal, pre-COVID levels.
So, knuckleheads everywhere. Maybe they’ll all observe every protocol and be safe as houses.
Whatever.
If you don’t want to wear a seat belt, live your life. If you get in a crash, and get thrown from the damned car, it’s on you.
If you don’t want to wear a helmet, and you live in a jurisdiction where that’s not required, live you life. If you drop your bike or get in a crash, it’ll be your brains on the pavement.
If you don’t want to wear a mask or observe social isolation, it’s actually not just on you. If you get COVID, you might be totally fine. Whoever you give it to might die.
So, not really the same live-and-let-live kinda scenario.
The thing I mostly object to is saying that there is anything more American about being a “live free or die” knucklehead or being a “yes, we’re gonna get all up in your business” civic virtue do-gooder.
You are no more American than I am. In fact, the traditions I embrace are probably older than, and deeper than, and more deeply embedded in this country’s national history than, the ones you do.
I don’t mind putting up with you all. Return the favor and show due respect.
Meanwhile, here in the People’s Republic, holiday weekend traffic bound for Cape Code is returning to normal, pre-COVID levels.
So, knuckleheads everywhere. Maybe they’ll all observe every protocol and be safe as houses.
Whatever.
If you don’t want to wear a seat belt, live your life. If you get in a crash, and get thrown from the damned car, it’s on you.
If you don’t want to wear a helmet, and you live in a jurisdiction where that’s not required, live you life. If you drop your bike or get in a crash, it’ll be your brains on the pavement.
If you don’t want to wear a mask or observe social isolation, it’s actually not just on you. If you get COVID, you might be totally fine. Whoever you give it to might die.
So, not really the same live-and-let-live kinda scenario.
The thing I mostly object to is saying that there is anything more American about being a “live free or die” knucklehead or being a “yes, we’re gonna get all up in your business” civic virtue do-gooder.
You are no more American than I am. In fact, the traditions I embrace are probably older than, and deeper than, and more deeply embedded in this country’s national history than, the ones you do.
I don’t mind putting up with you all. Return the favor and show due respect.
Who knew all this time that the most Un-American people we ever knew were our kindergarten teachers, trying to get us to share and to play nice and to think of others.
Commies.
Who knew all this time that the most Un-American people we ever knew were our kindergarten teachers, trying to get us to share and to play nice and to think of others.
Commies.
Or libertarians… 🙂
Or libertarians… 🙂
If you don’t want to wear a seat belt, live your life. If you get in a crash, and get thrown from the damned car, it’s on you.
If you don’t want to wear a helmet, and you live in a jurisdiction where that’s not required, live you life. If you drop your bike or get in a crash, it’ll be your brains on the pavement.
Well, ish. If you have to go thru an emergency room operation that ends up using up all of your blood type, and costing in the mid to high 6 figures, well, sucks to be the next one who needs that blood type, or can’t afford insurance. So I’m a bit removed from the ‘putting up with’ side.
If you don’t want to wear a seat belt, live your life. If you get in a crash, and get thrown from the damned car, it’s on you.
If you don’t want to wear a helmet, and you live in a jurisdiction where that’s not required, live you life. If you drop your bike or get in a crash, it’ll be your brains on the pavement.
Well, ish. If you have to go thru an emergency room operation that ends up using up all of your blood type, and costing in the mid to high 6 figures, well, sucks to be the next one who needs that blood type, or can’t afford insurance. So I’m a bit removed from the ‘putting up with’ side.
your preaching to the choir. I say wear the belt and wear the helmet.
just trying to give an inch.
your preaching to the choir. I say wear the belt and wear the helmet.
just trying to give an inch.
what I’m trying to bring out here, for good or ill, is the thinness of claims about what “being American” is.
I live in a town that was established as such in 1635. I go to a church that was established as a congregation in 1629. It was established by the first generation of Puritans who settled in Salem, and it has been a continuous living religious body since that time. Puritan, then Congregational, then Unitarian, now UU. A seamless continuous history. We still recite, and live by, the covenant written in 1629, every week.
New Englanders are famously homebodies and I live around people who have direct ancestors, with whom they share surnames, going back to the first English speaking communities on this continent.
I was born in NYC, which was settled by the Dutch in 1624, then became an English settlement in 1664.
My sister lives in Phoenix AZ, settled in 1867. My wife and I were out there for family stuff a while back, and we went up to Sedona, as one does. We went to see the original white English-speaking homestead there, which is maintained as a kind of historical site. The folks who settled it arrived there in 1900.
1900.
Are you getting my point, here?
I’ve spent time in the West, and I always enjoy spending time out there. I’ve spent time in the South, have family there, some of my best memories are there. My wife’s people are from northeast Ohio, and I’ve spent a ton of time there.
I recognize and respect the distinct traditions and value systems of all of those places. They aren’t the same as where I live, and they don’t need to be. And vice versa.
I’m just not interested in anybody telling me that whatever vibe they came up in is any more American than the one I live in and embrace.
It’s not.
what I’m trying to bring out here, for good or ill, is the thinness of claims about what “being American” is.
I live in a town that was established as such in 1635. I go to a church that was established as a congregation in 1629. It was established by the first generation of Puritans who settled in Salem, and it has been a continuous living religious body since that time. Puritan, then Congregational, then Unitarian, now UU. A seamless continuous history. We still recite, and live by, the covenant written in 1629, every week.
New Englanders are famously homebodies and I live around people who have direct ancestors, with whom they share surnames, going back to the first English speaking communities on this continent.
I was born in NYC, which was settled by the Dutch in 1624, then became an English settlement in 1664.
My sister lives in Phoenix AZ, settled in 1867. My wife and I were out there for family stuff a while back, and we went up to Sedona, as one does. We went to see the original white English-speaking homestead there, which is maintained as a kind of historical site. The folks who settled it arrived there in 1900.
1900.
Are you getting my point, here?
I’ve spent time in the West, and I always enjoy spending time out there. I’ve spent time in the South, have family there, some of my best memories are there. My wife’s people are from northeast Ohio, and I’ve spent a ton of time there.
I recognize and respect the distinct traditions and value systems of all of those places. They aren’t the same as where I live, and they don’t need to be. And vice versa.
I’m just not interested in anybody telling me that whatever vibe they came up in is any more American than the one I live in and embrace.
It’s not.
It is, perhaps, small minded of me. But when I hear someone ranting about who is, and is not, a “real American”, I hear something else. What I hear is someone who feels he has nothing else to cling to. No abilities that matter. No significant achievements. So the only thing he’s got is being a “real American” . . . which requires that some identifiable others are not.
Which, given his psychology, makes it clear why Trump plays that card early and often.
It is, perhaps, small minded of me. But when I hear someone ranting about who is, and is not, a “real American”, I hear something else. What I hear is someone who feels he has nothing else to cling to. No abilities that matter. No significant achievements. So the only thing he’s got is being a “real American” . . . which requires that some identifiable others are not.
Which, given his psychology, makes it clear why Trump plays that card early and often.
I go to a church that was established as a congregation in 1629.
Maybe that was my father’s great great great whatever’s congregation! They came in the next boat following the Mayflower! During the course of their history, at least one was a slaveowner. That was disgusting news when I found out about it, but I’m glad I know not to valorize my DNA.
My mother’s family came near the turn of the 20th century, immigrants from Croatia, at that time Austria-Hungary. My mom identified as a daughter of Yugoslav immigrants. Her parents
settled in Galveston, Texas. Yes – where Juneteenth happened, but her family was way later than that event. Most people who set off from Croatia during that time died before reaching America. (Not sure of the stats – I visited Croatia some years ago, where people there told me that their ancestors were drowning trying to get away, just as people were drowning in the Mediterranean a couple of years ago – and still might be – have we lost track?)
My America is a nation of immigrants, desperate people who came here hoping for a better life. (I just watched Hamilton on Disney+. I highly recommend it for those who couldn’t acquire/afford tickets. I paid the $7 for a month. I plan to cancel after I’ve watched it a few more times.)
This country still has a lot of promise. We have to fight for its potential. The civil war keeps going on, and we have to keep winning it. We’ve lost some significant battles lately, but we can’t give up. Black lives matter. Democracy matters. Voting rights matter.
I go to a church that was established as a congregation in 1629.
Maybe that was my father’s great great great whatever’s congregation! They came in the next boat following the Mayflower! During the course of their history, at least one was a slaveowner. That was disgusting news when I found out about it, but I’m glad I know not to valorize my DNA.
My mother’s family came near the turn of the 20th century, immigrants from Croatia, at that time Austria-Hungary. My mom identified as a daughter of Yugoslav immigrants. Her parents
settled in Galveston, Texas. Yes – where Juneteenth happened, but her family was way later than that event. Most people who set off from Croatia during that time died before reaching America. (Not sure of the stats – I visited Croatia some years ago, where people there told me that their ancestors were drowning trying to get away, just as people were drowning in the Mediterranean a couple of years ago – and still might be – have we lost track?)
My America is a nation of immigrants, desperate people who came here hoping for a better life. (I just watched Hamilton on Disney+. I highly recommend it for those who couldn’t acquire/afford tickets. I paid the $7 for a month. I plan to cancel after I’ve watched it a few more times.)
This country still has a lot of promise. We have to fight for its potential. The civil war keeps going on, and we have to keep winning it. We’ve lost some significant battles lately, but we can’t give up. Black lives matter. Democracy matters. Voting rights matter.
Our nation was not founded by people who declaimed, “It’s all about me.” The Puritans were cold hearted religious bigots, and if you tried to run that one past them, you would have most likely wound up in the stocks, or worse.
Remember that the next time you say, “Please pass me the the turkey.”
Our nation was not founded by people who declaimed, “It’s all about me.” The Puritans were cold hearted religious bigots, and if you tried to run that one past them, you would have most likely wound up in the stocks, or worse.
Remember that the next time you say, “Please pass me the the turkey.”
Factions. People often oversimplify. In this case seven seems a bit high. In taxonomic terms this writer is a splitter rather than a lumper.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/charles-booker-jamaal-bowman-and-the-7-competing-camps-in-black-politics/
Factions. People often oversimplify. In this case seven seems a bit high. In taxonomic terms this writer is a splitter rather than a lumper.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/charles-booker-jamaal-bowman-and-the-7-competing-camps-in-black-politics/
“I’m just not interested in anybody telling me that whatever vibe they came up in is any more American than the one I live in and embrace.”
I am wondering if you perceive anyone in this thread did that? Because I didnt.
Having watched Hamilton last night, I feel like I may be being being asked to go to NJ.
In taxonomic terms this writer is a splitter rather than a lumper.
It is notable that in a couple of cases he doesn’t even predict that two of his groups will behave significantly differently. In which case, what’s the point of differentiating?
“I’m just not interested in anybody telling me that whatever vibe they came up in is any more American than the one I live in and embrace.”
I am wondering if you perceive anyone in this thread did that? Because I didnt.
Having watched Hamilton last night, I feel like I may be being being asked to go to NJ.
In taxonomic terms this writer is a splitter rather than a lumper.
It is notable that in a couple of cases he doesn’t even predict that two of his groups will behave significantly differently. In which case, what’s the point of differentiating?
cleek, where is the “racist undertone“? (Yes, I realize those weren’t your words.) It seems to me to be right out front: that particular election commissioner doesn’t classify blacks as people.
cleek, where is the “racist undertone“? (Yes, I realize those weren’t your words.) It seems to me to be right out front: that particular election commissioner doesn’t classify blacks as people.
I am wondering if you perceive anyone in this thread did that? Because I didnt.
Your 10:04, all about how not wanting to wear a seat belt, or drive the speed limit, or otherwise comply with anything that might “stop one from dying” is “wholly American”.
Well, it’s not, actually. Or, not in particular.
I am wondering if you perceive anyone in this thread did that? Because I didnt.
Your 10:04, all about how not wanting to wear a seat belt, or drive the speed limit, or otherwise comply with anything that might “stop one from dying” is “wholly American”.
Well, it’s not, actually. Or, not in particular.
The demand for personal freedom is very American, but that comment wasnt meant as a criticism.
On the other hand, the propensity across the political spectrum to try to use government to micromanage people’s lives is decidedly not a traditional American value. If that shoe fits where it.
Happy Independence Day all.
The demand for personal freedom is very American, but that comment wasnt meant as a criticism.
On the other hand, the propensity across the political spectrum to try to use government to micromanage people’s lives is decidedly not a traditional American value. If that shoe fits where it.
Happy Independence Day all.
meme:
[picture of a young boy side-eying the camera]
meme:
[picture of a young boy side-eying the camera]
the propensity across the political spectrum to try to use government to micromanage people’s lives is decidedly not a traditional American value
not since 1865 or so, anyway.
the propensity across the political spectrum to try to use government to micromanage people’s lives is decidedly not a traditional American value
not since 1865 or so, anyway.
“the price of freedom”
Interesting, is it not, how often “the price of freedom” is what someone else (maybe, in rare cases, someone as close to me as my own kids, but not me) has to pay so I can do what I want. But if I’m expected to pay myself, that is personally, that’s tyrrany.
“the price of freedom”
Interesting, is it not, how often “the price of freedom” is what someone else (maybe, in rare cases, someone as close to me as my own kids, but not me) has to pay so I can do what I want. But if I’m expected to pay myself, that is personally, that’s tyrrany.
A partial expatiation of why a lot of Americans are thumbing their unmasked noses at the rules made for them by their betters.
“Americans’ unwillingness to be governed any further by officials who responded to the pandemic with a series of botched policy initiatives, personal exemptions, and seemingly arbitrary commands to the public is understandable. Why would you take orders from people who seem to have no idea what they’re doing and clearly don’t intend to follow the rules themselves?”
Post-Pandemic Americans May Be Done With Taking Orders: Governments overplayed their hands with mandates that they are losing the ability to enforce. (Warning: a reason.com link… )
A partial expatiation of why a lot of Americans are thumbing their unmasked noses at the rules made for them by their betters.
“Americans’ unwillingness to be governed any further by officials who responded to the pandemic with a series of botched policy initiatives, personal exemptions, and seemingly arbitrary commands to the public is understandable. Why would you take orders from people who seem to have no idea what they’re doing and clearly don’t intend to follow the rules themselves?”
Post-Pandemic Americans May Be Done With Taking Orders: Governments overplayed their hands with mandates that they are losing the ability to enforce. (Warning: a reason.com link… )
The demand for personal freedom is very American, but that comment wasnt meant as a criticism.
On the other hand, the propensity across the political spectrum to try to use government to micromanage people’s lives is decidedly not a traditional American value. If that shoe fits where it.
Sez you.
This is *your* vision of what “traditional American values” are. It’s not everyone’s.
Especially if “micromanaging people’s lives” refers to things like wearing a freaking mask during a viral pandemic.
Don’t know how many times this needs to be said before it sinks in, but I’m happy to make the point whenever it needs making.
*Your* vision of what American values are is not the same as other people’s.
The demand for personal freedom is very American, but that comment wasnt meant as a criticism.
On the other hand, the propensity across the political spectrum to try to use government to micromanage people’s lives is decidedly not a traditional American value. If that shoe fits where it.
Sez you.
This is *your* vision of what “traditional American values” are. It’s not everyone’s.
Especially if “micromanaging people’s lives” refers to things like wearing a freaking mask during a viral pandemic.
Don’t know how many times this needs to be said before it sinks in, but I’m happy to make the point whenever it needs making.
*Your* vision of what American values are is not the same as other people’s.
Random bits on energy storage…
35 miles up the road from me is a pumped hydro storage unit that dates back to the 1960s. 320 MW maximum output, 1300 MWh storage when the upper reservoir is full. It’s relatively small compared to others in the US. It’s also one of the reasons Xcel Energy will reliably get away with more wind power than some other areas can. San Diego County is building a somewhat larger 500 MW/4000 MWh pumped hydro unit that will cost about $40/kWh. Estimates are that Tesla’s latest battery factory is producing li-ion cells at a cost of about $110/kWh. 100 million electric cars — half of the current US fleet — each contributing 10 kWh of storage is 1,000,000 MWh of storage. Charge/discharge rate isn’t as important since it’s so highly distributed — basically, one vehicle load balancing one household. Systems analysis says that for some large regions of the country, it’s cheaper to do overbuilding plus bulk transmission and play statistical games. The big thing is that there’s no one-size-fits-all approach today. Our national policy has to be flexible enough to accommodate multiple solutions. Just my personal opinion, but today the policy is not that flexible.
Random bits on energy storage…
35 miles up the road from me is a pumped hydro storage unit that dates back to the 1960s. 320 MW maximum output, 1300 MWh storage when the upper reservoir is full. It’s relatively small compared to others in the US. It’s also one of the reasons Xcel Energy will reliably get away with more wind power than some other areas can. San Diego County is building a somewhat larger 500 MW/4000 MWh pumped hydro unit that will cost about $40/kWh. Estimates are that Tesla’s latest battery factory is producing li-ion cells at a cost of about $110/kWh. 100 million electric cars — half of the current US fleet — each contributing 10 kWh of storage is 1,000,000 MWh of storage. Charge/discharge rate isn’t as important since it’s so highly distributed — basically, one vehicle load balancing one household. Systems analysis says that for some large regions of the country, it’s cheaper to do overbuilding plus bulk transmission and play statistical games. The big thing is that there’s no one-size-fits-all approach today. Our national policy has to be flexible enough to accommodate multiple solutions. Just my personal opinion, but today the policy is not that flexible.
A lot of complications could be avoided by going straight to nuclear.
Renewable sources may become cheap energy producers in themselves but will have to be backed up by storage, fossil, and nuclear baseload sources. Plus renewable sources will become more expensive as they’re scaled up due to competition for the resources to produce them.
A lot of complications could be avoided by going straight to nuclear.
Renewable sources may become cheap energy producers in themselves but will have to be backed up by storage, fossil, and nuclear baseload sources. Plus renewable sources will become more expensive as they’re scaled up due to competition for the resources to produce them.
A subtle problem with nuclear in many places is water. A few years ago during a drought in Texas, they throttled back and nearly had to close a pair of their nukes because of inadequate supply of cooling water. Southern Co. has spent billions of dollars adding evaporative cooling rather than pass-through to their thermal plants (coal, gas, and nuclear) in the South because the river temperatures were getting too high. A company who wanted to build a reactor to sell power into the lucrative Southern California market began looking for unencumbered water rights at increasing distances. The closest they found were in eastern Utah.
One of the reasons PV and wind have been popular in the American West is that they don’t require cooling water.
A subtle problem with nuclear in many places is water. A few years ago during a drought in Texas, they throttled back and nearly had to close a pair of their nukes because of inadequate supply of cooling water. Southern Co. has spent billions of dollars adding evaporative cooling rather than pass-through to their thermal plants (coal, gas, and nuclear) in the South because the river temperatures were getting too high. A company who wanted to build a reactor to sell power into the lucrative Southern California market began looking for unencumbered water rights at increasing distances. The closest they found were in eastern Utah.
One of the reasons PV and wind have been popular in the American West is that they don’t require cooling water.
A possible nuclear power alternative is miniature nuclear reactors of various designs.
Some designs are small enough to embed in concrete buried in the ground at a substation in place of a huge central rector. Or a nuclear plant could be made up of a number of small rectors instead of one large one.
“Jose Reyes, a nuclear engineer and cofounder of NuScale Power, headquartered in Portland, Oregon, says he and his colleagues can revive nuclear by thinking small. Reyes and NuScale’s 350 employees have designed a small modular reactor (SMR) that would take up 1% of the space of a conventional reactor. Whereas a typical commercial reactor cranks out a gigawatt of power, each NuScale SMR would generate just 60 megawatts. For about $3 billion, NuScale would stack up to 12 SMRs side by side, like beer cans in a six-pack, to form a power plant.”
Smaller, safer, cheaper: One company aims to reinvent the nuclear reactor and save a warming planet
A possible nuclear power alternative is miniature nuclear reactors of various designs.
Some designs are small enough to embed in concrete buried in the ground at a substation in place of a huge central rector. Or a nuclear plant could be made up of a number of small rectors instead of one large one.
“Jose Reyes, a nuclear engineer and cofounder of NuScale Power, headquartered in Portland, Oregon, says he and his colleagues can revive nuclear by thinking small. Reyes and NuScale’s 350 employees have designed a small modular reactor (SMR) that would take up 1% of the space of a conventional reactor. Whereas a typical commercial reactor cranks out a gigawatt of power, each NuScale SMR would generate just 60 megawatts. For about $3 billion, NuScale would stack up to 12 SMRs side by side, like beer cans in a six-pack, to form a power plant.”
Smaller, safer, cheaper: One company aims to reinvent the nuclear reactor and save a warming planet
A lot of complications could be avoided by going straight to nuclear.
The critical difficulty, as we have discovered, is you need somewhere to put the waste products. Dealing with ash from coal is bad enough; nuclear waste is worse.
Yeah, we have (tentatively) established a waste storage site — in Nevada. But even moving the stuff there is extremely controversial. Let alone the reactions of the people who live anywhere near by.**
Work out those details first. Then there might be a chance to go nuclear in any significant way. Until then? Not happening. No matter how much sense it makes in the abstract.
** Me, I’d find a nice subduction zone and stuff the waste in there. Done carefully, it would actually get rid of the problem. Not seeing anybody talking about doing that, however.
A lot of complications could be avoided by going straight to nuclear.
The critical difficulty, as we have discovered, is you need somewhere to put the waste products. Dealing with ash from coal is bad enough; nuclear waste is worse.
Yeah, we have (tentatively) established a waste storage site — in Nevada. But even moving the stuff there is extremely controversial. Let alone the reactions of the people who live anywhere near by.**
Work out those details first. Then there might be a chance to go nuclear in any significant way. Until then? Not happening. No matter how much sense it makes in the abstract.
** Me, I’d find a nice subduction zone and stuff the waste in there. Done carefully, it would actually get rid of the problem. Not seeing anybody talking about doing that, however.
There are some new nuclear reactor designs that would burn nuclear waste to generate power. But it would continue to have to be stored until needed.
Advanced Reactor Nuclear Power Resurgence in the U.S.: Privately funded, carbon-free, walk-away-safe, burns nuclear waste – what’s not to like?
There are some new nuclear reactor designs that would burn nuclear waste to generate power. But it would continue to have to be stored until needed.
Advanced Reactor Nuclear Power Resurgence in the U.S.: Privately funded, carbon-free, walk-away-safe, burns nuclear waste – what’s not to like?
“Sez you”
Yep my name was on that comment. I didnt suspect my opinion represented a universal opinion.
“Sez you”
Yep my name was on that comment. I didnt suspect my opinion represented a universal opinion.
Ran across this in a long public comment from Lauryn Hill back in 2018. The rest of the comment is responding to stories about her as a band leader [https://medium.com/@Ms.LaurynHill/addressingrobertgalsper-f08c20e02ffe if you are interested], but the part below seemed to get at a lot of what we’ve been talking about when the discussion is actually centered on race and racism:
-And just to clear up an old urban legend that somehow people still believe, I do not hate white people. I do, however, despise a system of entitlement and oppression set up to exploit people who are different. I do loathe the promotion and preservation of said system at the expense of other people, and the racist and entitled attitudes it gives rise to. The lengthy history of unfairness and brutality towards people of color, especially Black people, has not been fully acknowledged or corrected. The expectation is for us to live with abuse, distortion, and deliberate policies, meant to outright control and contain us — like we’re not aware of our basic right to freedom. I resist and reject THESE ideas completely. Like many Black people, I work to reconcile my own generational PTSD. I do my best to Love, pursue freedom in body, Spirit and mind… and to confront. To repress everything in the name of ‘getting along’ is to deny our right to healing. It’s an ugly, distorting and complicated history at best. We’ve been shaped by it for better or worse. I just choose not to pretend that it’s not there in order to maintain public approval and gain economic advantage. My true white friends and colleagues and I discuss these schemes and machinations, and the distrust that people of color would naturally have toward such a system and towards those who agree with it. We don’t run from those conversations, we run into them, which is why I can call them friends and colleagues. Within these relationships I can be my complete self, and not a splintered individual/soul repressing the truth about generations and generations of abuse.
That middle part about generational trauma and healing and demanding that black people not express their anger and pain in public to white people seems especially resonant with all that is going on now.
Ran across this in a long public comment from Lauryn Hill back in 2018. The rest of the comment is responding to stories about her as a band leader [https://medium.com/@Ms.LaurynHill/addressingrobertgalsper-f08c20e02ffe if you are interested], but the part below seemed to get at a lot of what we’ve been talking about when the discussion is actually centered on race and racism:
-And just to clear up an old urban legend that somehow people still believe, I do not hate white people. I do, however, despise a system of entitlement and oppression set up to exploit people who are different. I do loathe the promotion and preservation of said system at the expense of other people, and the racist and entitled attitudes it gives rise to. The lengthy history of unfairness and brutality towards people of color, especially Black people, has not been fully acknowledged or corrected. The expectation is for us to live with abuse, distortion, and deliberate policies, meant to outright control and contain us — like we’re not aware of our basic right to freedom. I resist and reject THESE ideas completely. Like many Black people, I work to reconcile my own generational PTSD. I do my best to Love, pursue freedom in body, Spirit and mind… and to confront. To repress everything in the name of ‘getting along’ is to deny our right to healing. It’s an ugly, distorting and complicated history at best. We’ve been shaped by it for better or worse. I just choose not to pretend that it’s not there in order to maintain public approval and gain economic advantage. My true white friends and colleagues and I discuss these schemes and machinations, and the distrust that people of color would naturally have toward such a system and towards those who agree with it. We don’t run from those conversations, we run into them, which is why I can call them friends and colleagues. Within these relationships I can be my complete self, and not a splintered individual/soul repressing the truth about generations and generations of abuse.
That middle part about generational trauma and healing and demanding that black people not express their anger and pain in public to white people seems especially resonant with all that is going on now.
what nous said.
what nous said.
I didnt suspect my opinion represented a universal opinion.
the dude speaks.
not meant as a poke at Marty, I just figured we could all use a dose of the Dude. just lightening myself up, if nothing else.
almost time for BBQ chicken sandwiches, with my wife’s homemade BBQ sauce and bread-n-butter pickles.
stay safe everybody, and don’t blow yourselves up.
I didnt suspect my opinion represented a universal opinion.
the dude speaks.
not meant as a poke at Marty, I just figured we could all use a dose of the Dude. just lightening myself up, if nothing else.
almost time for BBQ chicken sandwiches, with my wife’s homemade BBQ sauce and bread-n-butter pickles.
stay safe everybody, and don’t blow yourselves up.
The “burn waste” reactors are not completely waste free. They’ll burn the actinides, but they still produce fission products (radioactive isotopes of cesium, strontium, etc). That reduces the storage requirements to a hundred years or so, rather than thousands.
The NRC has started issuing licenses for single small modular reactors. So far all of the proposals locate them on federal land, since no state has been willing to issue a business license unless there’s a functioning spent fuel repository. I believe at least one state has said, “…and the repository has to be in some other state.”
Yucca Mountain is still missing a 300-mile rail spur necessary for actual operation. One of the two route choices requires running through sacred tribal lands; the other requires demoting a national monument. (I am curious about who did the systems work.)
The various national labs have been studying how to do low-carbon or no-carbon energy for decades now. At least for the Western Interconnect, at increasingly nuts-and-bolts levels. The Western can do it with renewables alone, although they need the federal regulators to quit mucking some things up. The Eastern Interconnect is a much harder problem and myself, I don’t see how they do it without nuclear. There are plenty of perfectly good places to put a spent fuel repository in the Eastern. In fact, the original DOE plans, before Congress started screwing with them, was to put a big repository in the East where almost all the reactors are and a tiny one in the West.
The “burn waste” reactors are not completely waste free. They’ll burn the actinides, but they still produce fission products (radioactive isotopes of cesium, strontium, etc). That reduces the storage requirements to a hundred years or so, rather than thousands.
The NRC has started issuing licenses for single small modular reactors. So far all of the proposals locate them on federal land, since no state has been willing to issue a business license unless there’s a functioning spent fuel repository. I believe at least one state has said, “…and the repository has to be in some other state.”
Yucca Mountain is still missing a 300-mile rail spur necessary for actual operation. One of the two route choices requires running through sacred tribal lands; the other requires demoting a national monument. (I am curious about who did the systems work.)
The various national labs have been studying how to do low-carbon or no-carbon energy for decades now. At least for the Western Interconnect, at increasingly nuts-and-bolts levels. The Western can do it with renewables alone, although they need the federal regulators to quit mucking some things up. The Eastern Interconnect is a much harder problem and myself, I don’t see how they do it without nuclear. There are plenty of perfectly good places to put a spent fuel repository in the Eastern. In fact, the original DOE plans, before Congress started screwing with them, was to put a big repository in the East where almost all the reactors are and a tiny one in the West.
stay safe everybody, and don’t blow yourselves up.
Amen.
Normal years, I’d be working a fireworks show for one of the neighboring cities. (I’ve got a friend who’s a licensed pyrotechnician. She has the contract.) We have a safety briefing — even for those of us who could give it ourselves by this time. The fire department is on site. The fire marshal comes by. The civilians are kept well away.
But not this year. And no way I’m going anywhere near some damn amateurs playing with fire.
stay safe everybody, and don’t blow yourselves up.
Amen.
Normal years, I’d be working a fireworks show for one of the neighboring cities. (I’ve got a friend who’s a licensed pyrotechnician. She has the contract.) We have a safety briefing — even for those of us who could give it ourselves by this time. The fire department is on site. The fire marshal comes by. The civilians are kept well away.
But not this year. And no way I’m going anywhere near some damn amateurs playing with fire.
The hills are tinder dry. And I’m hearing lots of (illegal) fireworks. Close. Damn amateurs.
Glad I’m home, in case we get a grassfire close by. Sigh.
The hills are tinder dry. And I’m hearing lots of (illegal) fireworks. Close. Damn amateurs.
Glad I’m home, in case we get a grassfire close by. Sigh.
Safety is overrated. Or so we are told.
Safety is overrated. Or so we are told.
“Normal years, I’d be working a fireworks show for one of the neighboring cities. (I’ve got a friend who’s a licensed pyrotechnician. She has the contract.) We have a safety briefing — even for those of us who could give it ourselves by this time. The fire department is on site. The fire marshal comes by. The civilians are kept well away.”
No, America has never been about micro-management, especially on Independence You’re Not The Boss of Me Day.
The Boston Tea Party wasn’t micromanaged either, it was improvised jazz, except for the dress rehearsal beforehand where a bunch of guys which residual Brit accents passed out Mohawk Indian hair pieces and war paint and were shown their marks to hit when the show started.
Ok, boys, now, let’s try our war whoops. They’ll never know who we really are. On .. three.
At least the modern Tea Party rabble come as they are … loudmouthed, know-nothing jagoffs.
Nothing like the crackling sound of dry underbrush going up in flames in the rearview mirror after tossing a Pyro Demon over your shoulder out the car window in a fit of unregulated constitutional originalism.
As James Madison said to Ben Franklin, “Where there is smoke there is fire, if you can keep it.”
The Fire Department? We pay THEM to throw cold water on our fun? Talk about a cushy bureaucratic job, hanh?
Got any statues we can deface and pull down?
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/07/pulling-down-statues-tradition-dates-back-united-states-independence/
Personally, I think the current statue destruction is getting out of hand.
I just don’t know where the American people got the idea that mob behavior is a good idea, nor do I know where they got the idea that it’s not a good idea.
And neither do they.
At least today’s mobs don’t melt down the statues and make bullets out of them.
Although that would be one way of getting the NRA’s approval of Antifa and Black Lives Matter.
The National Geographic was owned by Murdoch for a bit, I believe.
I think Murdoch only liked it so he could look at photos of barely clothed African and Polynesian women as he formulated the dress codes for his female news anchors.
But then he saw a photo of Margaret Mead naked and sold the business to Disney.
In other news, it turns out, I learn from my reading, that the Confederate Army burned down half of Atlanta before Sherman could even get there, and Richmond too.
Very Trumpish, that.
To yell “Fire” all this time, while pointing over there, having set it, and turned off the sprinklers and fire exit signs, on account of the overhead and Citizens Ignited.
“Normal years, I’d be working a fireworks show for one of the neighboring cities. (I’ve got a friend who’s a licensed pyrotechnician. She has the contract.) We have a safety briefing — even for those of us who could give it ourselves by this time. The fire department is on site. The fire marshal comes by. The civilians are kept well away.”
No, America has never been about micro-management, especially on Independence You’re Not The Boss of Me Day.
The Boston Tea Party wasn’t micromanaged either, it was improvised jazz, except for the dress rehearsal beforehand where a bunch of guys which residual Brit accents passed out Mohawk Indian hair pieces and war paint and were shown their marks to hit when the show started.
Ok, boys, now, let’s try our war whoops. They’ll never know who we really are. On .. three.
At least the modern Tea Party rabble come as they are … loudmouthed, know-nothing jagoffs.
Nothing like the crackling sound of dry underbrush going up in flames in the rearview mirror after tossing a Pyro Demon over your shoulder out the car window in a fit of unregulated constitutional originalism.
As James Madison said to Ben Franklin, “Where there is smoke there is fire, if you can keep it.”
The Fire Department? We pay THEM to throw cold water on our fun? Talk about a cushy bureaucratic job, hanh?
Got any statues we can deface and pull down?
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/07/pulling-down-statues-tradition-dates-back-united-states-independence/
Personally, I think the current statue destruction is getting out of hand.
I just don’t know where the American people got the idea that mob behavior is a good idea, nor do I know where they got the idea that it’s not a good idea.
And neither do they.
At least today’s mobs don’t melt down the statues and make bullets out of them.
Although that would be one way of getting the NRA’s approval of Antifa and Black Lives Matter.
The National Geographic was owned by Murdoch for a bit, I believe.
I think Murdoch only liked it so he could look at photos of barely clothed African and Polynesian women as he formulated the dress codes for his female news anchors.
But then he saw a photo of Margaret Mead naked and sold the business to Disney.
In other news, it turns out, I learn from my reading, that the Confederate Army burned down half of Atlanta before Sherman could even get there, and Richmond too.
Very Trumpish, that.
To yell “Fire” all this time, while pointing over there, having set it, and turned off the sprinklers and fire exit signs, on account of the overhead and Citizens Ignited.
Apparently, Trump’s crowd at Mt. Rushmore started chanting “Go back where you came from!” at Oglala Sioux who were protesting the rally.
Natch, the latter were arrested.
If true, that’s not so much institutional racism as it is racism by ka-numbnuts who should be institutionalized in lunatic asylums for the clinically inane.
We issue guns to these people.
Apparently, Trump’s crowd at Mt. Rushmore started chanting “Go back where you came from!” at Oglala Sioux who were protesting the rally.
Natch, the latter were arrested.
If true, that’s not so much institutional racism as it is racism by ka-numbnuts who should be institutionalized in lunatic asylums for the clinically inane.
We issue guns to these people.
Meanwhile, and for anybody who hasn’t seen it (I’m sure all the American commentariat will have), this is Biden’s take on July 4th – compare and contrast with that of “he who had just been laminated” at Mount Rushmore:
https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1279414665542381568
Meanwhile, and for anybody who hasn’t seen it (I’m sure all the American commentariat will have), this is Biden’s take on July 4th – compare and contrast with that of “he who had just been laminated” at Mount Rushmore:
https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1279414665542381568
https://mobile.twitter.com/TimOBrien/status/1279400518180384769
Zing!
https://mobile.twitter.com/TimOBrien/status/1279400518180384769
Zing!
Just watched a repeated broadcast of a documentary on Arthur Ashe that I remember watching when it first came out, when Obama was president.
It vividly reminded me of the Wimbledon final when he beat Jimmy Connors. I had been deathly ill, and was still recuperating in hospital, but Wimbledon was as close as I came to a religion in those days so despite my diminished state I watched it, and was ecstatic at the result (only tangentially because I thought Connors was a boor).
But on watching this documentary, I was particularly struck by Billie Jean telling how, after his AIDS diagnosis was made public, she asked him what was the most difficult thing in his life. And he replied “being black.” He told her that, even having AIDS, it was the daily experience of being black, and the stressful repercussions of prejudice on a daily basis. What a comment. Black lives matter, and not only in the sense of staying alive.
Just watched a repeated broadcast of a documentary on Arthur Ashe that I remember watching when it first came out, when Obama was president.
It vividly reminded me of the Wimbledon final when he beat Jimmy Connors. I had been deathly ill, and was still recuperating in hospital, but Wimbledon was as close as I came to a religion in those days so despite my diminished state I watched it, and was ecstatic at the result (only tangentially because I thought Connors was a boor).
But on watching this documentary, I was particularly struck by Billie Jean telling how, after his AIDS diagnosis was made public, she asked him what was the most difficult thing in his life. And he replied “being black.” He told her that, even having AIDS, it was the daily experience of being black, and the stressful repercussions of prejudice on a daily basis. What a comment. Black lives matter, and not only in the sense of staying alive.
Things could go either way when it comes to, if not confiscating the public’s weaponry, at least seeing the wisdom of disallowing the carrying of weapons, concealed and not, in public:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/were-in-your-house-lets-go-hundreds-of-heavily-armed-militia-protest-confederate-carving-in-georgia-2020-07-05?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
The right wing will of course continue to choose the wrong way to go, so it’s now off the rails.
Tit, as they say, for tat.
A polite society is one in which when a guy yells “DUCK!” just about anywhere, all men, women, and children hit the deck.
Way to go conservative, libertarian movement.
Look at what you fuckers started, but can’t finish.
Things could go either way when it comes to, if not confiscating the public’s weaponry, at least seeing the wisdom of disallowing the carrying of weapons, concealed and not, in public:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/were-in-your-house-lets-go-hundreds-of-heavily-armed-militia-protest-confederate-carving-in-georgia-2020-07-05?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
The right wing will of course continue to choose the wrong way to go, so it’s now off the rails.
Tit, as they say, for tat.
A polite society is one in which when a guy yells “DUCK!” just about anywhere, all men, women, and children hit the deck.
Way to go conservative, libertarian movement.
Look at what you fuckers started, but can’t finish.
a synopsis of civic discourse in American today.
A bunch of militia boyos got punked and went to Gettysburg because some dude on FB said he was holding an antifa rally to burn flags.
There was no antifa rally. Nobody burned any flags.
Some other guy wearing a BLM t-shirt happened to be there. An ancestor of his is buried at Gettysburg, he went to pay respects.
Since they were there anyway, with all of that patriotic mojo to burn off, the militia dudes figured they’d engage the BLM guy in a discussion of current events.
A cop ambled by and figured this was only going to go south, and suggested to Mr. BLM that he might want to leave. Because, militia dudes.
Unclear if the ancestor of Mr. BLM ever got his props.
I should point out that, when I say “militia dudes”, that is shorthand for “self-appointed imaginary militia dudes whose relationship to an actual militia in the 2nd A sense is 100% in their own fevered imaginations”. Mostly, it seems like a bunch of beefy middle-aged to old white guys regurgitating whatever they last heard on talk radio. With guns, in some cases.
Maybe we aren’t the dumbest fucking country on the planet, but whoever is, we’re giving them a run for their money.
I have, really, nothing constructive to say at this point, mostly because I’m not sure there is anything whatsoever constructive to say. So perhaps I should just STFU.
Before I STFU, I will add that I have never been more pessimistic about the outlook for this nation. Never, in my lifetime. No matter who is POTUS come next January.
The stupid is too thick on the ground. Its like a Dunning-Kruger singularity. I have no idea how we get past it all.
Have a good night, all.
a synopsis of civic discourse in American today.
A bunch of militia boyos got punked and went to Gettysburg because some dude on FB said he was holding an antifa rally to burn flags.
There was no antifa rally. Nobody burned any flags.
Some other guy wearing a BLM t-shirt happened to be there. An ancestor of his is buried at Gettysburg, he went to pay respects.
Since they were there anyway, with all of that patriotic mojo to burn off, the militia dudes figured they’d engage the BLM guy in a discussion of current events.
A cop ambled by and figured this was only going to go south, and suggested to Mr. BLM that he might want to leave. Because, militia dudes.
Unclear if the ancestor of Mr. BLM ever got his props.
I should point out that, when I say “militia dudes”, that is shorthand for “self-appointed imaginary militia dudes whose relationship to an actual militia in the 2nd A sense is 100% in their own fevered imaginations”. Mostly, it seems like a bunch of beefy middle-aged to old white guys regurgitating whatever they last heard on talk radio. With guns, in some cases.
Maybe we aren’t the dumbest fucking country on the planet, but whoever is, we’re giving them a run for their money.
I have, really, nothing constructive to say at this point, mostly because I’m not sure there is anything whatsoever constructive to say. So perhaps I should just STFU.
Before I STFU, I will add that I have never been more pessimistic about the outlook for this nation. Never, in my lifetime. No matter who is POTUS come next January.
The stupid is too thick on the ground. Its like a Dunning-Kruger singularity. I have no idea how we get past it all.
Have a good night, all.
Are we there yet? Not even close.
Are we there yet? Not even close.
I offer this without comment.
I offer this without comment.
Are we there yet?
Nope. And if the definition of “there yet” is 100% racism free, we never will be.
On the other hand, we’ve moved from something like 90%+ racist to somewhere around 50% — slightly above or well below, depending on how you count people who still have the prejudices, but recognize it and try to keep from acting on them.
Certainly not time to declare victory and go home. But reason for guarded optimism, that we can continue to get better.
Are we there yet?
Nope. And if the definition of “there yet” is 100% racism free, we never will be.
On the other hand, we’ve moved from something like 90%+ racist to somewhere around 50% — slightly above or well below, depending on how you count people who still have the prejudices, but recognize it and try to keep from acting on them.
Certainly not time to declare victory and go home. But reason for guarded optimism, that we can continue to get better.
wherever ‘there’ is, we’re moving away from it, right now, because a lot more people feel comfortable celebrating their racism in public today than did a few years back.
Trump and the GOP base have throw off the shackles of shame, and are having a deplorably fabulous time.
wherever ‘there’ is, we’re moving away from it, right now, because a lot more people feel comfortable celebrating their racism in public today than did a few years back.
Trump and the GOP base have throw off the shackles of shame, and are having a deplorably fabulous time.
i don’t know if this is giddy futurism or not, but “triso” nuclear fuel sounds interesting. “meltdown proof” ?
i don’t know if this is giddy futurism or not, but “triso” nuclear fuel sounds interesting. “meltdown proof” ?
“meltdown proof”?
Proof of the pudding, etc.
But there HAS been enormous advances in materials since the 60’s, which is what most reactor designs come from, so it’s not entirely fantasy that a modern design could withstand 3000 degrees without failing.
Just look at jet turbine blades.
Of course, solar and wind technologies have also benefited from technological advances, so lots of competition in zero-carbon power generation.
“meltdown proof”?
Proof of the pudding, etc.
But there HAS been enormous advances in materials since the 60’s, which is what most reactor designs come from, so it’s not entirely fantasy that a modern design could withstand 3000 degrees without failing.
Just look at jet turbine blades.
Of course, solar and wind technologies have also benefited from technological advances, so lots of competition in zero-carbon power generation.
Lithium is likely to get a whole lot cheaper to extract, fairly soon.
https://energyx.com/technology/
Lithium is likely to get a whole lot cheaper to extract, fairly soon.
https://energyx.com/technology/
The Fort St. Vrain nuclear power plant in Colorado used TRISO fuel particles (embedded in a hexagonal graphite structure). FSV demonstrated proof-of-concept for high-temp gas-cooled power reactors: thorium fuel cycle, high burn-up, walk-away safe, improved thermal efficiency. The big problem the design had was water ingress: even tiny amounts of water mixed in with the helium caused all sorts of problems. Most of the contemporary HTGC designs were shaped by the need to avoid water contamination.
“Meltdown proof” is not the same thing as “can’t ever leak”. When FSV was decommissioned, the fuel was (still is) stored on site in stainless steel casks in a special building. So long as the convection-driven air flow is not blocked, the casks are stable at a temperature well below the melting point of the stainless steel. Screw the air flow up enough and the steel casks could melt. Add water once the steel has melted and the graphite blocks will burn. The outer layers of the TRISO particles will eventually corrode away, but on the order of a thousand years.
“Walk-away safe” is the same kind of thing. Not “won’t ever leak” but rather “won’t leak for years/decades/centuries”.
The Fort St. Vrain nuclear power plant in Colorado used TRISO fuel particles (embedded in a hexagonal graphite structure). FSV demonstrated proof-of-concept for high-temp gas-cooled power reactors: thorium fuel cycle, high burn-up, walk-away safe, improved thermal efficiency. The big problem the design had was water ingress: even tiny amounts of water mixed in with the helium caused all sorts of problems. Most of the contemporary HTGC designs were shaped by the need to avoid water contamination.
“Meltdown proof” is not the same thing as “can’t ever leak”. When FSV was decommissioned, the fuel was (still is) stored on site in stainless steel casks in a special building. So long as the convection-driven air flow is not blocked, the casks are stable at a temperature well below the melting point of the stainless steel. Screw the air flow up enough and the steel casks could melt. Add water once the steel has melted and the graphite blocks will burn. The outer layers of the TRISO particles will eventually corrode away, but on the order of a thousand years.
“Walk-away safe” is the same kind of thing. Not “won’t ever leak” but rather “won’t leak for years/decades/centuries”.
a lot more people feel comfortable celebrating their racism in public today than did a few years back.
Trump and the GOP base have throw off the shackles of shame, and are having a deplorably fabulous time.
Absolutely agree that, with Trump leading by example from the bully pulpit, the racists are feeling more free to vent their bigotry than a they did few years ago. On the other hand, if Trump loses in November (and especially if, please God, he loses big), that sends the opposite message about what is acceptable in American society. Which will, from a historical perspective, make the past 4 years a temporary setback.
As I say, I’m cautiously optimistic.
a lot more people feel comfortable celebrating their racism in public today than did a few years back.
Trump and the GOP base have throw off the shackles of shame, and are having a deplorably fabulous time.
Absolutely agree that, with Trump leading by example from the bully pulpit, the racists are feeling more free to vent their bigotry than a they did few years ago. On the other hand, if Trump loses in November (and especially if, please God, he loses big), that sends the opposite message about what is acceptable in American society. Which will, from a historical perspective, make the past 4 years a temporary setback.
As I say, I’m cautiously optimistic.
As I say, I’m cautiously optimistic.
No matter who wins in November, the 40% of the country that thinks Trump is the cat’s pajamas are still going to be here. All of the knuckleheads who have seen the Trump presidency as license to let their bigotry run free like the buffalo across the land, are still going to be here. All of the people who have been more than happy to countenance an incompetent, ignorant, narcissistic ass as POTUS in exchange for tax cuts and deregulation, are still going to be here.
They were here before Trump, they’ll be here when Trump is gone.
I am cautiously optimistic that governance under almost any (D) you can imagine will be better than it has been for the last few years.
I am not at all optimistic that all of the people I just named will have anything like a change of heart. About anything. More than “not at all optimistic”, I’m saying they won’t.
They won’t.
I don’t know how long it will take to rebuild the international relationships we’ve fractured over the last few years. The change in tone is one thing, but the foreign service and intelligence infrastructure is not something you can turn around overnight.
Other countries have learned that all it takes is one election for generations of co-operation to be undermined. They’ll extend benefit of the doubt, maybe, but real trust will take longer. It will have to be re-earned.
I’ll reconsider all of this if Trump comes in under 30% of the popular vote. That will still suck – seriously, 30% would vote for him after the last 4 years? – but anything less than that tells me that no lessons have been learned.
If he comes in under 20%, I’ll believe there’s been an actual national change of heart. But that’s not gonna happen.
What you see, is who we are. For good or ill.
As I say, I’m cautiously optimistic.
No matter who wins in November, the 40% of the country that thinks Trump is the cat’s pajamas are still going to be here. All of the knuckleheads who have seen the Trump presidency as license to let their bigotry run free like the buffalo across the land, are still going to be here. All of the people who have been more than happy to countenance an incompetent, ignorant, narcissistic ass as POTUS in exchange for tax cuts and deregulation, are still going to be here.
They were here before Trump, they’ll be here when Trump is gone.
I am cautiously optimistic that governance under almost any (D) you can imagine will be better than it has been for the last few years.
I am not at all optimistic that all of the people I just named will have anything like a change of heart. About anything. More than “not at all optimistic”, I’m saying they won’t.
They won’t.
I don’t know how long it will take to rebuild the international relationships we’ve fractured over the last few years. The change in tone is one thing, but the foreign service and intelligence infrastructure is not something you can turn around overnight.
Other countries have learned that all it takes is one election for generations of co-operation to be undermined. They’ll extend benefit of the doubt, maybe, but real trust will take longer. It will have to be re-earned.
I’ll reconsider all of this if Trump comes in under 30% of the popular vote. That will still suck – seriously, 30% would vote for him after the last 4 years? – but anything less than that tells me that no lessons have been learned.
If he comes in under 20%, I’ll believe there’s been an actual national change of heart. But that’s not gonna happen.
What you see, is who we are. For good or ill.
No matter who wins in November, the 40% of the country that thinks Trump is the cat’s pajamas are still going to be here.
…
They were here before Trump, they’ll be here when Trump is gone.
All true. But while a change of heart probably isn’t in the cards. a change in behavior is more feasible. Which is desirable in itself, but also is how we get to a next generation where they are substantially less than 40%.
Unfortunately, as you say, our international relations and the foreign service and intelligence infrastructure are actually going to be harder to turn around. I’m not totally pessimistic about our foreign relations only because, while they have seen that one election can cause enormous problems, they may also (eventually) come to see Trump as an aberration unlikely to be repeated. Replacing the people we have lost, unfortunately, is likely to take longer.
No matter who wins in November, the 40% of the country that thinks Trump is the cat’s pajamas are still going to be here.
…
They were here before Trump, they’ll be here when Trump is gone.
All true. But while a change of heart probably isn’t in the cards. a change in behavior is more feasible. Which is desirable in itself, but also is how we get to a next generation where they are substantially less than 40%.
Unfortunately, as you say, our international relations and the foreign service and intelligence infrastructure are actually going to be harder to turn around. I’m not totally pessimistic about our foreign relations only because, while they have seen that one election can cause enormous problems, they may also (eventually) come to see Trump as an aberration unlikely to be repeated. Replacing the people we have lost, unfortunately, is likely to take longer.
All of the people who have been more than happy to countenance an incompetent, ignorant, narcissistic ass as POTUS in exchange for tax cuts and deregulation, are still going to be here.
The people that really scare me are not the people who make this bargain, but the people who actually think, really think, that he’s a great president and he’s done a great job. You see them being interviewed on the news all the time, they totally buy his lies about how much he’s done, and how respected the US now is in the world, and how much better all the farmers are doing because of the tariffs, and how China is paying for it, and how he’s built a great big beautiful wall, and how if it weren’t for him two million Americans would be dead of Covid-19. They actually believe it, lots and lots of them. I don’t know the percentage, but they’re the ones that freak me out the most, because the concept of reality has ceased to have any meaning.
All of the people who have been more than happy to countenance an incompetent, ignorant, narcissistic ass as POTUS in exchange for tax cuts and deregulation, are still going to be here.
The people that really scare me are not the people who make this bargain, but the people who actually think, really think, that he’s a great president and he’s done a great job. You see them being interviewed on the news all the time, they totally buy his lies about how much he’s done, and how respected the US now is in the world, and how much better all the farmers are doing because of the tariffs, and how China is paying for it, and how he’s built a great big beautiful wall, and how if it weren’t for him two million Americans would be dead of Covid-19. They actually believe it, lots and lots of them. I don’t know the percentage, but they’re the ones that freak me out the most, because the concept of reality has ceased to have any meaning.
they’re the ones that freak me out the most, because the concept of reality has ceased to have any meaning.
Marks for conmen have been around forever. All that’s really changed is that one of those conmen made it to the Presidency.
Which has been, no question, a disaster — and I have no great idea how we keep it from ever happening again. But it’s not like there are suddenly a lot more people who are divorced from reality and ready to fall for the con. (See “I’m a Nigerian Prince” emails and such.)
they’re the ones that freak me out the most, because the concept of reality has ceased to have any meaning.
Marks for conmen have been around forever. All that’s really changed is that one of those conmen made it to the Presidency.
Which has been, no question, a disaster — and I have no great idea how we keep it from ever happening again. But it’s not like there are suddenly a lot more people who are divorced from reality and ready to fall for the con. (See “I’m a Nigerian Prince” emails and such.)
Yeah, but historically the marks usually end up knowing they have been conned. Your marks appear to have no such inkling, probably because in this case they are a little too far removed from the actual results.
Yeah, but historically the marks usually end up knowing they have been conned. Your marks appear to have no such inkling, probably because in this case they are a little too far removed from the actual results.
historically the marks usually end up knowing they have been conned. Your marks appear to have no such inkling
I think (or maybe I like to think) that the operative word is: Yet
historically the marks usually end up knowing they have been conned. Your marks appear to have no such inkling
I think (or maybe I like to think) that the operative word is: Yet
The people that really scare me are not the people who make this bargain
The people who make that bargain are basically the difference between POTUS Trump and wanna-be POTUS Trump.
The people that really scare me are not the people who make this bargain
The people who make that bargain are basically the difference between POTUS Trump and wanna-be POTUS Trump.
Well, the EU certainly dodged a bullet by pushing the UK out just in time, with the Coronavirus about to explode.
They got the UK to pay for it, also, too.
Well, the EU certainly dodged a bullet by pushing the UK out just in time, with the Coronavirus about to explode.
They got the UK to pay for it, also, too.
US presidential elections:
Landslide victory: United States
US presidential elections:
Landslide victory: United States
Landlides.
I thought this was interesting – electoral results vs. popular vote results.
James Monroe was that last POTUS to get more than 2/3 of the popular vote. That was in 1816.
No POTUS has won more than 60% of the popular vote since Nixon in ’72.
19 out of 58 elections – almost exactly one third – were won with less than 50% of the popular vote.
Hard to say what “landslide” even means.
Landlides.
I thought this was interesting – electoral results vs. popular vote results.
James Monroe was that last POTUS to get more than 2/3 of the popular vote. That was in 1816.
No POTUS has won more than 60% of the popular vote since Nixon in ’72.
19 out of 58 elections – almost exactly one third – were won with less than 50% of the popular vote.
Hard to say what “landslide” even means.
Re landslides, I’m in Kyushu, where we are having flooding and landslides (I’m ok, house is in relatively high ground, no nearby mountains) A landslide, in that context, is a good percentage of whatever comes down on top of you. Thinking about it that way, 10 or 15% is more than enough to take your house out, so I assume that landslide has to be a sudden movement by enough people to swamp something…
Re landslides, I’m in Kyushu, where we are having flooding and landslides (I’m ok, house is in relatively high ground, no nearby mountains) A landslide, in that context, is a good percentage of whatever comes down on top of you. Thinking about it that way, 10 or 15% is more than enough to take your house out, so I assume that landslide has to be a sudden movement by enough people to swamp something…
In a US electoral context, I’d say that a “landslide” involves winning enough states that you would win the Electorsl College vote even if you hadn’t won several of them. And winning each of those by a big enough margin that no recount is going to change the result.
Not to say that someone who thinks that losing the popular vote by 3 million is close enough to argue over won’t do so, no matter what. But if most of those who voted for him know better, that’s enough.
In a US electoral context, I’d say that a “landslide” involves winning enough states that you would win the Electorsl College vote even if you hadn’t won several of them. And winning each of those by a big enough margin that no recount is going to change the result.
Not to say that someone who thinks that losing the popular vote by 3 million is close enough to argue over won’t do so, no matter what. But if most of those who voted for him know better, that’s enough.
Have just read that the Ayn Rand Institute received a PPP loan of between $350K and $1 million. God, I hope this is true. If so, ROFL.
Have just read that the Ayn Rand Institute received a PPP loan of between $350K and $1 million. God, I hope this is true. If so, ROFL.
This is simply appalling.
Lots of colleges and universities are pushing online classes due to covid-19. But the xenophobes in America’s immigration agency have now announced the withdrawal of student visas for courses that move entirely online. Affected students will lose their right to be here.
I only pray that this administration’s usual incompetence will keep very many students from being impacted before we throw the rascals out this fall.
This is simply appalling.
Lots of colleges and universities are pushing online classes due to covid-19. But the xenophobes in America’s immigration agency have now announced the withdrawal of student visas for courses that move entirely online. Affected students will lose their right to be here.
I only pray that this administration’s usual incompetence will keep very many students from being impacted before we throw the rascals out this fall.
I’m glad they announced that. I’d guess universities and colleges will have time to come up with creative ways not to completely move to online classes – officially, at least – so that visas won’t be withdrawn, even though each student will only have to show up, say, once – very briefly and with very few students. One-time, in-person instruction distributed across the entire semester and among the entire student body such that 5% of students come to class at a time, preferably outdoors and lasting less than 15 minutes. (Or whatever minimum gets around the rules.)
I’m glad they announced that. I’d guess universities and colleges will have time to come up with creative ways not to completely move to online classes – officially, at least – so that visas won’t be withdrawn, even though each student will only have to show up, say, once – very briefly and with very few students. One-time, in-person instruction distributed across the entire semester and among the entire student body such that 5% of students come to class at a time, preferably outdoors and lasting less than 15 minutes. (Or whatever minimum gets around the rules.)
Like the senate doing pro forma sessions in order to prevent recess appointments.
Like the senate doing pro forma sessions in order to prevent recess appointments.
So, just a question, if they are taking the courses online, why do they need to be here? It seems that this is a reasonable policy despite the knee jerk reaction. Who is being harmed? A student visa is for the expressed purpose of attending a school, so why would it remain if that purpose doesnt exist?
So, just a question, if they are taking the courses online, why do they need to be here? It seems that this is a reasonable policy despite the knee jerk reaction. Who is being harmed? A student visa is for the expressed purpose of attending a school, so why would it remain if that purpose doesnt exist?
I think the visa thing is just one step in an “Open, dammit!” campaign aimed at colleges and universities. The next one will be Betsy DeVos leaning on the accreditation organizations to threaten the schools: “We’re sorry, but your accreditation is based on the quality of your in-person curriculum, not your pieced-together online curriculum.”
I think the visa thing is just one step in an “Open, dammit!” campaign aimed at colleges and universities. The next one will be Betsy DeVos leaning on the accreditation organizations to threaten the schools: “We’re sorry, but your accreditation is based on the quality of your in-person curriculum, not your pieced-together online curriculum.”
Marty – the fear among international students is that if their student visa gets revoked, they will not be able to get it again once classes move back offline. (Who can blame them for that fear with Miller defecating all over our immigration and visa policies.) And they wish to attend school here mostly in order to get hands-on research experience, which means they will have to come back in person at some point else they may as well take those online courses somewhere cheaper and more convenient.
And a further concern: all this policy volatility has them and their families concerned that the US will freeze them out entirely before the students have completed their studies. Some of my former students are looking at transferring to a European school because they can’t trust that the US will get its act back together.
And if you think that a university education in the US is expensive now, just wait until it’s no longer subsidized by international tuitions and fees.
Marty – the fear among international students is that if their student visa gets revoked, they will not be able to get it again once classes move back offline. (Who can blame them for that fear with Miller defecating all over our immigration and visa policies.) And they wish to attend school here mostly in order to get hands-on research experience, which means they will have to come back in person at some point else they may as well take those online courses somewhere cheaper and more convenient.
And a further concern: all this policy volatility has them and their families concerned that the US will freeze them out entirely before the students have completed their studies. Some of my former students are looking at transferring to a European school because they can’t trust that the US will get its act back together.
And if you think that a university education in the US is expensive now, just wait until it’s no longer subsidized by international tuitions and fees.
So, just a question, if they are taking the courses online, why do they need to be here?
Conversely, what’s the problem with them being here? What is the point of making them leave?
So, just a question, if they are taking the courses online, why do they need to be here?
Conversely, what’s the problem with them being here? What is the point of making them leave?
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/07/07/888137097/brazilian-president-jair-bolsonaro-tests-positive-for-coronavirus
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/07/07/888137097/brazilian-president-jair-bolsonaro-tests-positive-for-coronavirus
Also, too, why would we want smart people here? They might decide to stay and do something that makes life better for the rest of us dummies. Ack!!!
Also, too, why would we want smart people here? They might decide to stay and do something that makes life better for the rest of us dummies. Ack!!!
Bolsanaro is a genocidal murderer.
In other news:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a33233404/ppp-ayn-rand-institute/
Atlas Mugged Us, Norquist pickpockets the baby’s college account while holding the kid’s head under the bathtub suds, and all of them, and Trump and friends will be executed.
Oh, and Putin is Q:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/michael-flynn-celebrated-july-4-by-taking-an-oath-referencing-bonkers-qanon-theory
Bolsanaro is a genocidal murderer.
In other news:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a33233404/ppp-ayn-rand-institute/
Atlas Mugged Us, Norquist pickpockets the baby’s college account while holding the kid’s head under the bathtub suds, and all of them, and Trump and friends will be executed.
Oh, and Putin is Q:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/michael-flynn-celebrated-july-4-by-taking-an-oath-referencing-bonkers-qanon-theory
A question for the lawyers among us. If the Justice Department end up being able to drop the charges against Flynn, could another administration refile them? That is, does the trial being voided constitute a basis for a double jeopardy argument?
(Maybe he’d have been better advised to stick with the guilty plea and go for a Presidential pardon.)
A question for the lawyers among us. If the Justice Department end up being able to drop the charges against Flynn, could another administration refile them? That is, does the trial being voided constitute a basis for a double jeopardy argument?
(Maybe he’d have been better advised to stick with the guilty plea and go for a Presidential pardon.)
As George Takei tweeted on hearing the news: “Satire is dead.”
Rather like Tom Lehrer’s famous
“When Kissinger won the Nobel peace prize, satire died”.
Thanks, John Thullen. I hoped @09.50 for proof (without taking the trouble to seek it), and there it is. How neat, in both the English and the US meanings.
As George Takei tweeted on hearing the news: “Satire is dead.”
Rather like Tom Lehrer’s famous
“When Kissinger won the Nobel peace prize, satire died”.
Thanks, John Thullen. I hoped @09.50 for proof (without taking the trouble to seek it), and there it is. How neat, in both the English and the US meanings.
I want them to leave because I don’t believe in open borders. Why do you think they should stay with an invalid visa?
I want them to leave because I don’t believe in open borders. Why do you think they should stay with an invalid visa?
The question is why do their visas have to be invalid(ated) in the first place?
The question is why do their visas have to be invalid(ated) in the first place?
I’m a bit confused. Is “open borders” the same thing as someone wanting to come here and spend money? (Which is an accurate description of what foreign students are doing.) Should we maybe shut down tourism coming here as well?
I’m a bit confused. Is “open borders” the same thing as someone wanting to come here and spend money? (Which is an accurate description of what foreign students are doing.) Should we maybe shut down tourism coming here as well?
Also, it’s unethical to admit someone to a college and give them a visa so they can attend and then change the rules before they are able to complete their course of studies when they have done nothing to lose their student status.
They would be here taking courses in person if it were safe to do so.
And putting international students’ student status in jeopardy over remote learning puts severe economic pressure on campuses to open up despite the public safety risk involved. Loss of projected tuitions will send campus administrations into panic. This is only going to add to the severity of either the pandemic (as campuses try to open in order to stay afloat) or of unemployment as colleges get rid of their adjunct teaching faculty as students withdraw.
And guess what that does to university research, a bunch of which is aimed at solving Coronavirus related problems? All those research agendas get affected too.
Stupidest fucking move ever, and the absolute worst time for a brain drain.
Also, it’s unethical to admit someone to a college and give them a visa so they can attend and then change the rules before they are able to complete their course of studies when they have done nothing to lose their student status.
They would be here taking courses in person if it were safe to do so.
And putting international students’ student status in jeopardy over remote learning puts severe economic pressure on campuses to open up despite the public safety risk involved. Loss of projected tuitions will send campus administrations into panic. This is only going to add to the severity of either the pandemic (as campuses try to open in order to stay afloat) or of unemployment as colleges get rid of their adjunct teaching faculty as students withdraw.
And guess what that does to university research, a bunch of which is aimed at solving Coronavirus related problems? All those research agendas get affected too.
Stupidest fucking move ever, and the absolute worst time for a brain drain.
Issuing visas on a passport is not open borders.
WTF?
Plenty of American citizens attend medical school abroad. They are issued visas on their American passports by the host country.
Issuing visas on a passport is not open borders.
WTF?
Plenty of American citizens attend medical school abroad. They are issued visas on their American passports by the host country.
Because they are visas to attend school, which they are not doing. So their visas don’t have to be invalidated, they are invalid unless they have other classes besides the online only classes that qualify them.
No one’s visa was singled out to be cancelled. The course were deemed to be outside the guidelines for valid classes to qualify for a visa. Because they were.
Because they are visas to attend school, which they are not doing. So their visas don’t have to be invalidated, they are invalid unless they have other classes besides the online only classes that qualify them.
No one’s visa was singled out to be cancelled. The course were deemed to be outside the guidelines for valid classes to qualify for a visa. Because they were.
“Plenty of American citizens attend medical school abroad.”
The important word here is attend.
“Plenty of American citizens attend medical school abroad.”
The important word here is attend.
The stupidest move ever was cancelling H1-B’s, those people actually go through a difficult process that has been made unconscionably difficult by the administration, but cancelling even one of them after they are approved is the stupidest move ever.
The stupidest move ever was cancelling H1-B’s, those people actually go through a difficult process that has been made unconscionably difficult by the administration, but cancelling even one of them after they are approved is the stupidest move ever.
how very pedantic.
how very pedantic.
I want them to leave because I don’t believe in open borders.
Issuing visas on a passport is not open borders.
Nothing to add to that.
As far as “attend”, they’ll be attending the same way that all of the other students are attending, whether born here or elsewhere. There are lots of reasons why someone would want to be in the US, even if they were not attending class in person. And a lot of those reasons are useful to the US.
Like, maybe they’ll like it here, and decide to stay here, and all of the value of various kinds that they create with their university educations will be created here.
The downside to all of this is that we are basically behaving dickishly to a population that represents, and creates, great value to our economy and to the nation in general.
I’m not seeing the upside.
I want them to leave because I don’t believe in open borders.
Issuing visas on a passport is not open borders.
Nothing to add to that.
As far as “attend”, they’ll be attending the same way that all of the other students are attending, whether born here or elsewhere. There are lots of reasons why someone would want to be in the US, even if they were not attending class in person. And a lot of those reasons are useful to the US.
Like, maybe they’ll like it here, and decide to stay here, and all of the value of various kinds that they create with their university educations will be created here.
The downside to all of this is that we are basically behaving dickishly to a population that represents, and creates, great value to our economy and to the nation in general.
I’m not seeing the upside.
Do I require a visa to follow this argument down the rat hole?
Do I require a visa to follow this argument down the rat hole?
The stupidest move ever was cancelling H1-B’s
Most H1-B visa holders work in tech. Many if not most of them can work from anywhere. A hell of a lot of people do that already, I work with teams colocated in Bangalore and Sofia right now.
Why is it any stupider to cancel H1-B’s than to cancel student visas?
The stupidest move ever was cancelling H1-B’s
Most H1-B visa holders work in tech. Many if not most of them can work from anywhere. A hell of a lot of people do that already, I work with teams colocated in Bangalore and Sofia right now.
Why is it any stupider to cancel H1-B’s than to cancel student visas?
Do I require a visa to follow this argument down the rat hole?
Only if you need to participate in person.
Do I require a visa to follow this argument down the rat hole?
Only if you need to participate in person.
I don’t know why Marty tries so hard to make excuses for a president he claims to hate.
I don’t know why Marty tries so hard to make excuses for a president he claims to hate.
yes, a lot stupider.
Most H1-B folks don’t work remote, although more have recently. However, it is the first step in a green card process that people can use to have companies sponsor come here. It is the first step in legal immigration.
Really russell, is there any person you think should not be able to get on a plane , bus, raft or train and come here with no actual rules or requirements? Or if their situation changes we should not make an exception for them?
I don’t recall a single thread where you were not saying whoever was a valuable addition to our society so they should just get to stay. This is a serious question, not even being snarky.
You say you are not for open borders but there doesn’t seem to be anyone you think should not just get to come and stay. Is there some rule you think should be enforced?
yes, a lot stupider.
Most H1-B folks don’t work remote, although more have recently. However, it is the first step in a green card process that people can use to have companies sponsor come here. It is the first step in legal immigration.
Really russell, is there any person you think should not be able to get on a plane , bus, raft or train and come here with no actual rules or requirements? Or if their situation changes we should not make an exception for them?
I don’t recall a single thread where you were not saying whoever was a valuable addition to our society so they should just get to stay. This is a serious question, not even being snarky.
You say you are not for open borders but there doesn’t seem to be anyone you think should not just get to come and stay. Is there some rule you think should be enforced?
hsh, this isn’t about the president. Its about immigration, I’m not the one that can’t separate the policy discussion from the person.
But, whenever there is a disagreement someone has to play that “Oh you’re supporting Trump” card.
That sucks.
hsh, this isn’t about the president. Its about immigration, I’m not the one that can’t separate the policy discussion from the person.
But, whenever there is a disagreement someone has to play that “Oh you’re supporting Trump” card.
That sucks.
Is there some rule you think should be enforced?
Obama deported a lot of people, which angered many on “the left.” One thing that made it not so bad was that many of the people he deported were dangerously criminal. That was by design. So there’s a rule I would support, and would guess russell would as well – deport people who are here illegally and who are actually dangerous criminals.
Is there some rule you think should be enforced?
Obama deported a lot of people, which angered many on “the left.” One thing that made it not so bad was that many of the people he deported were dangerously criminal. That was by design. So there’s a rule I would support, and would guess russell would as well – deport people who are here illegally and who are actually dangerous criminals.
I can’t figure out another reason why you support patently stupid things.
I can’t figure out another reason why you support patently stupid things.
Just to be clear, a lot of my international students are still here in the US, but their classes are being taught remotely to eliminate the requirement that we meet in person (in order to slow transmission of COVID).
They will also have their visas cancelled, just because the (normally in-person) class they have enrolled in has been moved to a digital learning environment for public safety.
Just to be clear, a lot of my international students are still here in the US, but their classes are being taught remotely to eliminate the requirement that we meet in person (in order to slow transmission of COVID).
They will also have their visas cancelled, just because the (normally in-person) class they have enrolled in has been moved to a digital learning environment for public safety.
May I do pledge week and the first panty raid of the new semester via ZOOM?
“with no actual rules or requirements”
If they didn’t cheat on their SAT to get into Wharton, they have a visa, stamped or attached to a passport, which is where this started not ten minutes ago when we were still in the mere anteroom of this rat hole.
Raft?
Why, are MORE of Marco Rubio’s sh*theel relatives coming in to ruin my country?
“Is there some rule you think should be enforced?”
The State Department, like the EPA and numerous other agencies, is deregulating.
What’s not to like?
May I do pledge week and the first panty raid of the new semester via ZOOM?
“with no actual rules or requirements”
If they didn’t cheat on their SAT to get into Wharton, they have a visa, stamped or attached to a passport, which is where this started not ten minutes ago when we were still in the mere anteroom of this rat hole.
Raft?
Why, are MORE of Marco Rubio’s sh*theel relatives coming in to ruin my country?
“Is there some rule you think should be enforced?”
The State Department, like the EPA and numerous other agencies, is deregulating.
What’s not to like?
Well, hsh, I guess you will just have to believe I am patently stupid. I would have to be to support Trump. And if I agree with some random administration immigration policy then I’m patently stupid anyway.
That assessment doesn’t bother me much, I don’t need to believe you are stupid to disagree with me. But if you need that then go ahead. Make yourself feel better.
Well, hsh, I guess you will just have to believe I am patently stupid. I would have to be to support Trump. And if I agree with some random administration immigration policy then I’m patently stupid anyway.
That assessment doesn’t bother me much, I don’t need to believe you are stupid to disagree with me. But if you need that then go ahead. Make yourself feel better.
just because the (normally in-person) class they have enrolled in has been moved to a digital learning environment for public safety.
Mystery solved! For this administration, acting in support of public safety (the piublic health kind; guns are a different discussion) is massively disloyal. Which they equate to being unpatriotic, if not outright treasonous.
just because the (normally in-person) class they have enrolled in has been moved to a digital learning environment for public safety.
Mystery solved! For this administration, acting in support of public safety (the piublic health kind; guns are a different discussion) is massively disloyal. Which they equate to being unpatriotic, if not outright treasonous.
Most H1-B folks don’t work remote, although more have recently.
Not my point. My point is that many if not most *can*. Just like many if not most people here on a student visa *can* attend classes remotely, if those are offered remotely.
However, it is the first step in a green card process that people can use to have companies sponsor come here. It is the first step in legal immigration.
Likewise, many people who come to the US on student visas decide to stay and subsequently apply for, and receive, green cards etc.
You say you are not for open borders but there doesn’t seem to be anyone you think should not just get to come and stay.
As a bare minimum, I’m in favor of letting stay are the folks who are actually already here legally.
I’m also in favor of letting people who are undocumented have a path to staying here, if they aren’t criminals.
And I’m in favor of expanding the number of visas we issue per year. It’s currently about a million a year, which sounds like a huge number, but is about 1/3 of 1% of the population of the country.
A lot of people want to come here, most people that come here improve their own lives and the lives of people around them once they’re here, I don’t see why we can’t issue more than the number we do.
All of those people put together excludes, by my count, the vast majority of the 7 billion people on the planet.
In any case I’m absolutely not in favor of taking aways visas that people have already obtained legally, just because they will be (may be) attending class remotely rather than in person. They already applied, we already accepted them and granted the visa. They are going to continue to attend college, they will just not be attending (some of) their classes in person.
We’re not talking about people who are sneaking into the country, or coming under false pretenses. We’re talking about people who have followed whatever rules and protocols are involved in getting a student visa. We already gave them visas.
You are always talking about how you’re not against immigration, you just insist that it be done “by the rules”. Well, these people followed the rules, and now we are changing the rules in mid-stream.
Which is usually the kind of thing you object to.
And so far I haven’t heard, from you or anyone, any positive benefit that we will get from telling these people they have to leave.
So, whatever.
Most H1-B folks don’t work remote, although more have recently.
Not my point. My point is that many if not most *can*. Just like many if not most people here on a student visa *can* attend classes remotely, if those are offered remotely.
However, it is the first step in a green card process that people can use to have companies sponsor come here. It is the first step in legal immigration.
Likewise, many people who come to the US on student visas decide to stay and subsequently apply for, and receive, green cards etc.
You say you are not for open borders but there doesn’t seem to be anyone you think should not just get to come and stay.
As a bare minimum, I’m in favor of letting stay are the folks who are actually already here legally.
I’m also in favor of letting people who are undocumented have a path to staying here, if they aren’t criminals.
And I’m in favor of expanding the number of visas we issue per year. It’s currently about a million a year, which sounds like a huge number, but is about 1/3 of 1% of the population of the country.
A lot of people want to come here, most people that come here improve their own lives and the lives of people around them once they’re here, I don’t see why we can’t issue more than the number we do.
All of those people put together excludes, by my count, the vast majority of the 7 billion people on the planet.
In any case I’m absolutely not in favor of taking aways visas that people have already obtained legally, just because they will be (may be) attending class remotely rather than in person. They already applied, we already accepted them and granted the visa. They are going to continue to attend college, they will just not be attending (some of) their classes in person.
We’re not talking about people who are sneaking into the country, or coming under false pretenses. We’re talking about people who have followed whatever rules and protocols are involved in getting a student visa. We already gave them visas.
You are always talking about how you’re not against immigration, you just insist that it be done “by the rules”. Well, these people followed the rules, and now we are changing the rules in mid-stream.
Which is usually the kind of thing you object to.
And so far I haven’t heard, from you or anyone, any positive benefit that we will get from telling these people they have to leave.
So, whatever.
And if I agree with some random administration immigration policy then I’m patently stupid anyway.
It’s not random. It’s a patently stupid policy.
I support criminal-justice reform even though Trump supported it. Because it wasn’t stupid.
You’re making really bad arguments in support of this patently stupid policy, which is a different thing from simply disagreeing with me.
And if I agree with some random administration immigration policy then I’m patently stupid anyway.
It’s not random. It’s a patently stupid policy.
I support criminal-justice reform even though Trump supported it. Because it wasn’t stupid.
You’re making really bad arguments in support of this patently stupid policy, which is a different thing from simply disagreeing with me.
wj asked …
>>>A question for the lawyers among us. If the Justice Department end up being able to drop the charges against Flynn, could another administration refile them? That is, does the trial being voided constitute a basis for a double jeopardy argument?
Based on a hazy decades old memory from my first semester of law school, jeopardy attaches when a jury is impanelled and sworn in. In other words, you don’t need to go all the way to one side resting or closing arguments. I think there may be a DoJ policy about only refiling charges based on new evidence which would be a greater hurdle.
wj asked …
>>>A question for the lawyers among us. If the Justice Department end up being able to drop the charges against Flynn, could another administration refile them? That is, does the trial being voided constitute a basis for a double jeopardy argument?
Based on a hazy decades old memory from my first semester of law school, jeopardy attaches when a jury is impanelled and sworn in. In other words, you don’t need to go all the way to one side resting or closing arguments. I think there may be a DoJ policy about only refiling charges based on new evidence which would be a greater hurdle.
No I am not. The policy says you can’t get a student visa or keep it if you are taking a completely online course of study. That makes perfectly good sense and has been the rule all along. There was an exception made for spring and summer classes for the people that were here. It is July, if you are going to take a 100% online course load you don’t qualify, just like it has always been.
You can take some online courses, in fact outside of a few specific visa types you can take mostly online courses. But if you are a remote learning student you don’t have to be in the US. That seems like a reasonable rule to me that is harder because of the virus.
The students can transfer to other schools, the schools can ensure they have some number of classes that are in person for each degree program. This doesn’t seem to be unsolvable for those affected and it retains a legitimate limit that people have to qualify for a in person degree program to get a visa.
No I am not. The policy says you can’t get a student visa or keep it if you are taking a completely online course of study. That makes perfectly good sense and has been the rule all along. There was an exception made for spring and summer classes for the people that were here. It is July, if you are going to take a 100% online course load you don’t qualify, just like it has always been.
You can take some online courses, in fact outside of a few specific visa types you can take mostly online courses. But if you are a remote learning student you don’t have to be in the US. That seems like a reasonable rule to me that is harder because of the virus.
The students can transfer to other schools, the schools can ensure they have some number of classes that are in person for each degree program. This doesn’t seem to be unsolvable for those affected and it retains a legitimate limit that people have to qualify for a in person degree program to get a visa.
And the reason why the (pandemic related) exceptions cannot be maintained while the pandemic continues is…?
And the reason why the (pandemic related) exceptions cannot be maintained while the pandemic continues is…?
Is there a pandemic still? If you listen to the governors of New York and Massachusetts we are all set for the fall. Wear some masks, go to lunch, have a class, grab drinks. California is less sanguine I believe, but it seems mostly LA County. Florida reclosed the bars but not much else. I really don’t keep up with Arizona.
I am not sure where the decision to not extend the exceptions rests, but I can certainly understand that if we are going to allow bars to be open than a subset of classrooms at the universities seems a reasonable thing to open also.
I don’t have a problem if they extended them a semester, nor do I have a problem with the current policy.
Is there a pandemic still? If you listen to the governors of New York and Massachusetts we are all set for the fall. Wear some masks, go to lunch, have a class, grab drinks. California is less sanguine I believe, but it seems mostly LA County. Florida reclosed the bars but not much else. I really don’t keep up with Arizona.
I am not sure where the decision to not extend the exceptions rests, but I can certainly understand that if we are going to allow bars to be open than a subset of classrooms at the universities seems a reasonable thing to open also.
I don’t have a problem if they extended them a semester, nor do I have a problem with the current policy.
I really don’t keep up with Arizona.
Then your information is notably incomplete. With or without Arizona, 50,584 new cases, in one day, yesterday.
So, some might say, pandemic. With or without bars being open.
It’s Ringo’s birthday today. He’s 80. Ringo says, “Peace and love!”.
So I’m gonna step away from this.
Have a good day, everyone.
I really don’t keep up with Arizona.
Then your information is notably incomplete. With or without Arizona, 50,584 new cases, in one day, yesterday.
So, some might say, pandemic. With or without bars being open.
It’s Ringo’s birthday today. He’s 80. Ringo says, “Peace and love!”.
So I’m gonna step away from this.
Have a good day, everyone.
Yes, there is still a pandemic in the US. Yes, states are reopening despite this.
https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/cdc-gating-criteria
So there is a lot of stupid going around in public policy, driven by a lot of stupid in public response, magical thinking, and a right wing disinformation campaign.
Yes, there is still a pandemic in the US. Yes, states are reopening despite this.
https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/cdc-gating-criteria
So there is a lot of stupid going around in public policy, driven by a lot of stupid in public response, magical thinking, and a right wing disinformation campaign.
I think I will step away from this too.
A right wing disinformation campaign is a ridiculous statement. There has been no source, from any expert or political entity, that has provided any consistent or useful information. From any wing. As the northern states start to reopen we get our first view as to whether there is any way to reopen with any degree of “safety”. Europe opens this month also, allowing a bubble, we’ll see how that works out. But everything any expert has said so far has turned out wrong.
California was hailed as an early reacter that had tracing and tracking in place from the AIDS epidemic so they were under control and Newsome was a great Governor, now not so much.
Florida filled up with New Yorkers fleeing the pandemic, so everyone is surprised its the new epicenter? Well except Floridians. Oh but it opened too early, no it was never closed adequately. But since there were so few cases it was hard to get peoples attention.
Well, everyone is paying attention there now. Except they probably aren’t even now.
It is really hard to convince people to do something today that you told them last month was useless.
I think I will step away from this too.
A right wing disinformation campaign is a ridiculous statement. There has been no source, from any expert or political entity, that has provided any consistent or useful information. From any wing. As the northern states start to reopen we get our first view as to whether there is any way to reopen with any degree of “safety”. Europe opens this month also, allowing a bubble, we’ll see how that works out. But everything any expert has said so far has turned out wrong.
California was hailed as an early reacter that had tracing and tracking in place from the AIDS epidemic so they were under control and Newsome was a great Governor, now not so much.
Florida filled up with New Yorkers fleeing the pandemic, so everyone is surprised its the new epicenter? Well except Floridians. Oh but it opened too early, no it was never closed adequately. But since there were so few cases it was hard to get peoples attention.
Well, everyone is paying attention there now. Except they probably aren’t even now.
It is really hard to convince people to do something today that you told them last month was useless.
California did a lot of things right early. Newsom didn’t do as well as Cuomo, but did moderately well. However, California stands as an example that even getting most things right is not a guarantee of a good outcome. We got it right enough to keep from totally overwhelming our medical infrastructure. But not to keep cases from running high.
In contrast, Texas, Florida, and Arizona (most notably so far) demonstrate that getting it wrong will rise up and bite you. Even if you got lucky early.
California did a lot of things right early. Newsom didn’t do as well as Cuomo, but did moderately well. However, California stands as an example that even getting most things right is not a guarantee of a good outcome. We got it right enough to keep from totally overwhelming our medical infrastructure. But not to keep cases from running high.
In contrast, Texas, Florida, and Arizona (most notably so far) demonstrate that getting it wrong will rise up and bite you. Even if you got lucky early.
This Cuomo thing just boggles my minds. NY still ha the most cases by double, the most deaths by an order of magnitude and still has over 25 deaths a day and Cuomo did what right?
Even the per capita numbers are huge.
This Cuomo thing just boggles my minds. NY still ha the most cases by double, the most deaths by an order of magnitude and still has over 25 deaths a day and Cuomo did what right?
Even the per capita numbers are huge.
NYC is an international hub that was hit hard before anyone knew it was happening there, before anyone had a clue how to treat this thing, and is far more densely populated than any of the places blowing up now. Hindsight is supposed to be 20/20, but few enough learned a GD thing from the first major outbreak that it’s happening again elsewhere.
NYC is an international hub that was hit hard before anyone knew it was happening there, before anyone had a clue how to treat this thing, and is far more densely populated than any of the places blowing up now. Hindsight is supposed to be 20/20, but few enough learned a GD thing from the first major outbreak that it’s happening again elsewhere.
Oh, and AZ’s cases have quadrupled in the last month. After months of seeing what happened in the rest of the world. That’s Arizona, if you want to know.
Oh, and AZ’s cases have quadrupled in the last month. After months of seeing what happened in the rest of the world. That’s Arizona, if you want to know.
Have just read that the Ayn Rand Institute received a PPP loan of between $350K and $1 million.
Well, the ARI has their rationale though I think it’s a little thin.
“Even advocacy groups have been cashing in, including some noted critics of profligate government spending such as Americans for Tax Reform and the Ayn Rand Institute (ARI).
The latter’s acceptance of government aid provoked a lot of jeering on Twitter about the alleged hypocrisy at play, although ARI has said since late May that it would gladly accept PPP loans as an effective return of stolen goods.
Other free market organizations have taken a different approach.”
The Paycheck Protection Program Is a Mess. Here’s Who Is Benefitting From the Dysfunction.: A program designed to keep workers on payrolls showered benefits on lobbyists, advocacy groups, and even members of Congress.
Have just read that the Ayn Rand Institute received a PPP loan of between $350K and $1 million.
Well, the ARI has their rationale though I think it’s a little thin.
“Even advocacy groups have been cashing in, including some noted critics of profligate government spending such as Americans for Tax Reform and the Ayn Rand Institute (ARI).
The latter’s acceptance of government aid provoked a lot of jeering on Twitter about the alleged hypocrisy at play, although ARI has said since late May that it would gladly accept PPP loans as an effective return of stolen goods.
Other free market organizations have taken a different approach.”
The Paycheck Protection Program Is a Mess. Here’s Who Is Benefitting From the Dysfunction.: A program designed to keep workers on payrolls showered benefits on lobbyists, advocacy groups, and even members of Congress.
A program designed to keep workers on payrolls showered benefits on lobbyists, advocacy groups, and even members of Congress
No question that too much money went to those folks. But that’s not quite the same as saying that most of it failed to go to the people it was intended for.
It’s possible for a program to largely achieve its goals, while still being misused by some.
A program designed to keep workers on payrolls showered benefits on lobbyists, advocacy groups, and even members of Congress
No question that too much money went to those folks. But that’s not quite the same as saying that most of it failed to go to the people it was intended for.
It’s possible for a program to largely achieve its goals, while still being misused by some.
The program seems to be largely an indiscriminate money drop. People got money whether they were connected or not. Being connected doesn’t appear to have made any difference in whether someone received money or not.
The program seems to be largely an indiscriminate money drop. People got money whether they were connected or not. Being connected doesn’t appear to have made any difference in whether someone received money or not.
Marty, I usually don’t engage, so you can feel free to ignore these questions but
1. do you think that COVID-19 is something where steps have to be taken
If that’s no, then we can agree to disagree
If it’s yes
2. If people are affected by it, should they be helped?
If that’s yes, then we move on to
3. If the person is from a foreign country, should they be helped?
Starting with visas and (non) attendance obscures these positions. If we agree, we can talk about it, if not, we can discuss why you don’t believe in 3, 2 or 1.
Marty, I usually don’t engage, so you can feel free to ignore these questions but
1. do you think that COVID-19 is something where steps have to be taken
If that’s no, then we can agree to disagree
If it’s yes
2. If people are affected by it, should they be helped?
If that’s yes, then we move on to
3. If the person is from a foreign country, should they be helped?
Starting with visas and (non) attendance obscures these positions. If we agree, we can talk about it, if not, we can discuss why you don’t believe in 3, 2 or 1.
Right wing disinformation campaign:
Epoch Times
Prager U
One America News Network
Right wing disinformation campaign:
Epoch Times
Prager U
One America News Network
We started getting the Epoch Times, unsolicited, a couple of months back.
Crumpled it up, it’s great for packing breakables for shipping. Also good or starting fires.
We started getting the Epoch Times, unsolicited, a couple of months back.
Crumpled it up, it’s great for packing breakables for shipping. Also good or starting fires.
Crumpled it up, it’s great for packing breakables for shipping.
Somebody might read it if you do that. Burning is great!
Crumpled it up, it’s great for packing breakables for shipping.
Somebody might read it if you do that. Burning is great!
Burning is great!
But climate change!…
Burning is great!
But climate change!…
But climate change!…
Good catch. Shredding and packing. That might be best.
But climate change!…
Good catch. Shredding and packing. That might be best.
Papier-mache!
Papier-mache!
Papier-mache!
Must have an exhibit!
Papier-mache!
Must have an exhibit!
…while they have seen that one election can cause enormous problems, they may also (eventually) come to see Trump as an aberration unlikely to be repeated.
Trump wasn’t simply an aberration. Have you forgotten that George W Bush also was massively incompetent? Yes, Trump is a horror, but his election continued a trend.
The US electoral system, as it works in the internet age, is not fit for the purpose of electing a President who is up to the job. From this side of the Atlantic it’s Barack Obama who was the aberration.
If you were looking for someone to run your business, you’d reject Trump in the blink of an eye and GWB in five seconds. Biden fifteen years ago might get on a long list.
The rest of the world respects US economic and military might, but it has no confidence that the country will be adequately governed in any given future presidency.
(And no, the UK is not much better off in this respect. BoJo v JeCo makes me shudder.)
…while they have seen that one election can cause enormous problems, they may also (eventually) come to see Trump as an aberration unlikely to be repeated.
Trump wasn’t simply an aberration. Have you forgotten that George W Bush also was massively incompetent? Yes, Trump is a horror, but his election continued a trend.
The US electoral system, as it works in the internet age, is not fit for the purpose of electing a President who is up to the job. From this side of the Atlantic it’s Barack Obama who was the aberration.
If you were looking for someone to run your business, you’d reject Trump in the blink of an eye and GWB in five seconds. Biden fifteen years ago might get on a long list.
The rest of the world respects US economic and military might, but it has no confidence that the country will be adequately governed in any given future presidency.
(And no, the UK is not much better off in this respect. BoJo v JeCo makes me shudder.)
There has been no source, from any expert or political entity, that has provided any consistent or useful information.
how strange that a brand new virus isn’t completely understood at the outset, right?
but there has been one source which has consistently provided misleading, dangerous and grossly irresponsible information, since January. open up! freedom! Drink Mor Bleech! it’ll go away like a miracle! Democrat hoax! TYRANNY! masks are for liberals! they’re trying to wreck our economy! don’t test because the numbers will look better!
then there has been common sense and medical professionals saying we should take this seriously, even as knowledge evolves.
and which side are you mad at?
i mean. of course.
There has been no source, from any expert or political entity, that has provided any consistent or useful information.
how strange that a brand new virus isn’t completely understood at the outset, right?
but there has been one source which has consistently provided misleading, dangerous and grossly irresponsible information, since January. open up! freedom! Drink Mor Bleech! it’ll go away like a miracle! Democrat hoax! TYRANNY! masks are for liberals! they’re trying to wreck our economy! don’t test because the numbers will look better!
then there has been common sense and medical professionals saying we should take this seriously, even as knowledge evolves.
and which side are you mad at?
i mean. of course.
i love this “kick the foreigners out because on-line isn’t real school” thing.
it’s so fucking dumb. so fucking perfectly 2020 “conservative”.
i love this “kick the foreigners out because on-line isn’t real school” thing.
it’s so fucking dumb. so fucking perfectly 2020 “conservative”.
Dumb as the latest xenophobia over foreign students is, it isn’t actually the scene of the worst disaster in education thanks to the virus. I expect most (all?) of us here are well past having children in school. But that looks to be (or be headed towards being) the biggest mess.
Mostly, this
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/reopening-bars-easy-schools-are-difficult/613861/
argues, because we didn’t include education among the economic sectors which are “essential”. As a result of which, minimal, if any, planning has been done towards how we get the (non-university) schools up and running again. In the long term, that may be the biggest impact of our mishandling of the pandemic.
Dumb as the latest xenophobia over foreign students is, it isn’t actually the scene of the worst disaster in education thanks to the virus. I expect most (all?) of us here are well past having children in school. But that looks to be (or be headed towards being) the biggest mess.
Mostly, this
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/reopening-bars-easy-schools-are-difficult/613861/
argues, because we didn’t include education among the economic sectors which are “essential”. As a result of which, minimal, if any, planning has been done towards how we get the (non-university) schools up and running again. In the long term, that may be the biggest impact of our mishandling of the pandemic.
wj’s link reminded me that after the dislocation of graduation, the US hasn’t had to deal with any of the stuff of education below university. This
It’s now early July, and we still have no idea whether or how they will be returning to classes that, ordinarily, would resume just weeks from now. My children’s summer has been idle. They have no jobs and not much summer programming to keep them busy. I try to convince myself they aren’t missing out on much. Hey, I grew up in the ’80s, I think, and all we did during the summer was hang out at the beach. Most days, I make it to about 10 a.m. before I rouse them.
In most other countries, education is year around (I take it, from discussions in the Guardian, that this is the case for the UK as well, it is certainly the case for Asia) so perhaps one partial explanation for the fact that the US has so totally screwed up its response is that other nations are having to deal with issues that occur because of COVID and secondary ed where as the US does not.
This LGM interview was also related,
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/06/we-have-to-remember-that-schools-serve-a-variety-of-functions-beyond-acade
but when I read that, I didn’t think about summer holidays. whoa.
wj’s link reminded me that after the dislocation of graduation, the US hasn’t had to deal with any of the stuff of education below university. This
It’s now early July, and we still have no idea whether or how they will be returning to classes that, ordinarily, would resume just weeks from now. My children’s summer has been idle. They have no jobs and not much summer programming to keep them busy. I try to convince myself they aren’t missing out on much. Hey, I grew up in the ’80s, I think, and all we did during the summer was hang out at the beach. Most days, I make it to about 10 a.m. before I rouse them.
In most other countries, education is year around (I take it, from discussions in the Guardian, that this is the case for the UK as well, it is certainly the case for Asia) so perhaps one partial explanation for the fact that the US has so totally screwed up its response is that other nations are having to deal with issues that occur because of COVID and secondary ed where as the US does not.
This LGM interview was also related,
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/06/we-have-to-remember-that-schools-serve-a-variety-of-functions-beyond-acade
but when I read that, I didn’t think about summer holidays. whoa.
perhaps one partial explanation for the fact that the US has so totally screwed up its response is that other nations are having to deal with issues that occur because of COVID and secondary ed where as the US does not.
Well, partially. In that we figured we could just skip the spring term, and by fall we’d be past it. (If we’d got our sh*t together and made use of the time our lockdowns, such as they were, bought us, that might even have worked.) Although it says something that we are that cavalier about how little our kids are expected to learn in half a year….
perhaps one partial explanation for the fact that the US has so totally screwed up its response is that other nations are having to deal with issues that occur because of COVID and secondary ed where as the US does not.
Well, partially. In that we figured we could just skip the spring term, and by fall we’d be past it. (If we’d got our sh*t together and made use of the time our lockdowns, such as they were, bought us, that might even have worked.) Although it says something that we are that cavalier about how little our kids are expected to learn in half a year….
“Although it says something that we are that cavalier about how little our kids are expected to learn in half a year.”
I dont know of any schools that shut down the spring semester. My personal experience was that they went to remote learning in all grades. So Fl, MA, and TX is my experience. Did some states just cancel the spring semester?
“Although it says something that we are that cavalier about how little our kids are expected to learn in half a year.”
I dont know of any schools that shut down the spring semester. My personal experience was that they went to remote learning in all grades. So Fl, MA, and TX is my experience. Did some states just cancel the spring semester?
There has been no source, from any expert or political entity, that has provided any consistent or useful information.
Wash your hands frequently and avoid touching your face.
Maintain a social distance of at least six feet.
If you need to be in a shared public space, wear a mask.
Heard daily, since March.
There has been no source, from any expert or political entity, that has provided any consistent or useful information.
Wash your hands frequently and avoid touching your face.
Maintain a social distance of at least six feet.
If you need to be in a shared public space, wear a mask.
Heard daily, since March.
You forgot the soap. To misquote Luther’s small catechism: Water alone will not do though. It’s the detergent that’s with and within the water. Without the detergent the water is simply water and no proper lavation. 😉
You forgot the soap. To misquote Luther’s small catechism: Water alone will not do though. It’s the detergent that’s with and within the water. Without the detergent the water is simply water and no proper lavation. 😉
Except six feet wasnt enough, then it was, it was only on surfaces then it was airborne, then it was not airborne unless you were breathing hard from heavy activity, then it wasn’t on surfaces, and masks weren’t useful unless they were not, then any old mask would do.
Wash your hands, dont touch your face was pretty consistent.
Except six feet wasnt enough, then it was, it was only on surfaces then it was airborne, then it was not airborne unless you were breathing hard from heavy activity, then it wasn’t on surfaces, and masks weren’t useful unless they were not, then any old mask would do.
Wash your hands, dont touch your face was pretty consistent.
yet somehow nearly every other country in the world dealt with evolving information far better than the US did.
maybe it thrives on apologists.
yet somehow nearly every other country in the world dealt with evolving information far better than the US did.
maybe it thrives on apologists.
the US pulling out of WHO will not do much to help anyone understand the next virus quicker. that’s for sure.
the US pulling out of WHO will not do much to help anyone understand the next virus quicker. that’s for sure.
cancel culture!
cancel culture!
I dont know of any schools that shut down the spring semester. My personal experience was that they went to remote learning in all grades.
My observation is that most tried for remote learning. But, especially for primary schools, it was terra incognito — they were basically inventing a whole new approach to teaching on the fly. Some teachers came up with brilliant ideas on how to do it; others were less successful.
And then there were the communities where the infrastructure for remote learning is limited or totally absent. For example, for a lot of poor families, there just isn’t Internet access at home; when the kids need it for school, they have to use the connection, and possibly the computers, in the public library. But a) said libraries are also closed down, and b) even if it is possible to use their WiFi from the parking lot, that’s good for an hour or two, not a whole school day.
I dont know of any schools that shut down the spring semester. My personal experience was that they went to remote learning in all grades.
My observation is that most tried for remote learning. But, especially for primary schools, it was terra incognito — they were basically inventing a whole new approach to teaching on the fly. Some teachers came up with brilliant ideas on how to do it; others were less successful.
And then there were the communities where the infrastructure for remote learning is limited or totally absent. For example, for a lot of poor families, there just isn’t Internet access at home; when the kids need it for school, they have to use the connection, and possibly the computers, in the public library. But a) said libraries are also closed down, and b) even if it is possible to use their WiFi from the parking lot, that’s good for an hour or two, not a whole school day.
I’ll spot you the masks, the CDC didn’t have a clear story on that until April.
But this is all goalpost-moving nonsense anyway.
I’ll spot you the masks, the CDC didn’t have a clear story on that until April.
But this is all goalpost-moving nonsense anyway.
Hm, will certain GOPsters find this the right time to renew their assault on ‘unconstitutional’ child labour laws?
If the kiddies can’t go to school and can’t afford digital infrastructure why don’t they do some productive work? Are there no chimneys to sweep (there is a coal renaissance, isn’t there?), looms to tend to, sewers to tosh?
Hm, will certain GOPsters find this the right time to renew their assault on ‘unconstitutional’ child labour laws?
If the kiddies can’t go to school and can’t afford digital infrastructure why don’t they do some productive work? Are there no chimneys to sweep (there is a coal renaissance, isn’t there?), looms to tend to, sewers to tosh?
I’ll spot you the masks, the CDC didn’t have a clear story on that until April.
“conservatives” don’t believe the CDC anyway.
it’s just another cog is the great Dem hoax to make Trump look bad.
I’ll spot you the masks, the CDC didn’t have a clear story on that until April.
“conservatives” don’t believe the CDC anyway.
it’s just another cog is the great Dem hoax to make Trump look bad.
It must be simply a coincidence that Marty’s preferred policies (e.g. on immigration) and Marty’s unwavering talking points (e.g. nobody knows nuthin) line up so frequently with the policies and talking points of a crooked racist would-be autocrat. Simple coincidence, I say.
But the question remains: which of them empowers the other?
–TP
It must be simply a coincidence that Marty’s preferred policies (e.g. on immigration) and Marty’s unwavering talking points (e.g. nobody knows nuthin) line up so frequently with the policies and talking points of a crooked racist would-be autocrat. Simple coincidence, I say.
But the question remains: which of them empowers the other?
–TP
If viruses can come here and stay without a visa, why not people my friends? The inbred nature of our politics is a crying call for an unrestrained expansion of the US gene pool.
If viruses can come here and stay without a visa, why not people my friends? The inbred nature of our politics is a crying call for an unrestrained expansion of the US gene pool.
yes, if only the messaging was clearer, people wouldn’t be trying to impeach the NC Gov for instituting the weak-ass protective measures NC has in place right now.
alas, these poor people are just too confused to hear six months of news about a “contagious and lethal RESPIRATORY VIRUS” and apply common sense.
yes, if only the messaging was clearer, people wouldn’t be trying to impeach the NC Gov for instituting the weak-ass protective measures NC has in place right now.
alas, these poor people are just too confused to hear six months of news about a “contagious and lethal RESPIRATORY VIRUS” and apply common sense.
Why is being required to wear a mask a violation of people’s constitutional rights but being required to wear clothes isn’t?
Why is being required to wear a mask a violation of people’s constitutional rights but being required to wear clothes isn’t?
hsh-
That is a state’s rights issue covered by the always expedient invokkkation of the 10th Amendment that was written solely to justify the public policies I prefer.
Remember, masks are the road to tyranny, just like sane visa policies = open borders, i.e. an irrefutable logical identity.
Got it?
hsh-
That is a state’s rights issue covered by the always expedient invokkkation of the 10th Amendment that was written solely to justify the public policies I prefer.
Remember, masks are the road to tyranny, just like sane visa policies = open borders, i.e. an irrefutable logical identity.
Got it?
I can’t wait for CharlesWT to endorse bobbyp’s answer to hairshirt’s question 🙂
Meanwhile: I’ve seen several cellphone videos of maskless assholes getting so outraged at being admonished that they intentionally cough in people’s food, on people’s babies, and in people’s faces. I’d call that “assault”. What would lawyers call it? What would Libertarians call it? What would Marty call it?
–TP
I can’t wait for CharlesWT to endorse bobbyp’s answer to hairshirt’s question 🙂
Meanwhile: I’ve seen several cellphone videos of maskless assholes getting so outraged at being admonished that they intentionally cough in people’s food, on people’s babies, and in people’s faces. I’d call that “assault”. What would lawyers call it? What would Libertarians call it? What would Marty call it?
–TP
if only the messaging was clearer, people wouldn’t be trying to impeach the NC Gov for instituting the weak-ass protective measures NC has in place right now.
You have to understand, requiring clothing is a matter of public morals. Whereas requiring masks is merely about public health. And one has to have one’s priorities clear.
if only the messaging was clearer, people wouldn’t be trying to impeach the NC Gov for instituting the weak-ass protective measures NC has in place right now.
You have to understand, requiring clothing is a matter of public morals. Whereas requiring masks is merely about public health. And one has to have one’s priorities clear.
And public health is bad because public health people talk about sex and indoctrinate children to become LGBT and go to Planned Parenthood and become satanic witches.
And public health is bad because public health people talk about sex and indoctrinate children to become LGBT and go to Planned Parenthood and become satanic witches.
Disinformation campaign:
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-99-percent-coronavirus-cases-totally-harmless-claim-mcenany-white-house-191725001.html
Soon to be amplified and defended by the usual media outlets.
Disinformation campaign:
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-99-percent-coronavirus-cases-totally-harmless-claim-mcenany-white-house-191725001.html
Soon to be amplified and defended by the usual media outlets.
Even US Kristian(TM) fundamentalists have, alas, dropped the traditional ideas (expressed e.g. by St.Jerome) about proper female clothing.
Let’s put it this way: for these actual traditionalists (what else could one call Fathers of the Church?) women in Saudi Arabia are seriously underdressed (since it is still possible to notice that there is a vaguely humanoid shape somewhere under the cloth).
So, at least females wearing masks would be a step towards upholding public morals.
The naturally exempted males (who should show their faces since it is in the image of G#d*) should bang the drum for that. I assume it is their raw and sinful lust** preventing the idea to get a firm hold.
*according to St.Jerome the female face is not, so it must be hidden from sight for that reason alone.
**as expressed by e.g. Jabbabonk himself
Even US Kristian(TM) fundamentalists have, alas, dropped the traditional ideas (expressed e.g. by St.Jerome) about proper female clothing.
Let’s put it this way: for these actual traditionalists (what else could one call Fathers of the Church?) women in Saudi Arabia are seriously underdressed (since it is still possible to notice that there is a vaguely humanoid shape somewhere under the cloth).
So, at least females wearing masks would be a step towards upholding public morals.
The naturally exempted males (who should show their faces since it is in the image of G#d*) should bang the drum for that. I assume it is their raw and sinful lust** preventing the idea to get a firm hold.
*according to St.Jerome the female face is not, so it must be hidden from sight for that reason alone.
**as expressed by e.g. Jabbabonk himself
Why is being required to wear a mask a violation of people’s constitutional rights but being required to wear clothes isn’t?
Some of the mask-wearing edicts of various government entities have been a bit over the top. Such as requiring masks outside in open spaces where people are not near each other. But I’m OK with business owners requiring people entering their businesses to wear masks pandemics or not.
Why is being required to wear a mask a violation of people’s constitutional rights but being required to wear clothes isn’t?
Some of the mask-wearing edicts of various government entities have been a bit over the top. Such as requiring masks outside in open spaces where people are not near each other. But I’m OK with business owners requiring people entering their businesses to wear masks pandemics or not.
Is that a constitutional matter or just general criticism?
Is that a constitutional matter or just general criticism?
Because, as general criticism goes, I agree. There’s no reason to wear a mask outside if you’re not near anyone. Maybe bring one in case, but keep it in your pocket.
Because, as general criticism goes, I agree. There’s no reason to wear a mask outside if you’re not near anyone. Maybe bring one in case, but keep it in your pocket.
CharlesWT: Such as requiring masks outside in open spaces where people are not near each other.
Sincere question: where/when did that happen, and how was it enforced?
Irresistible snark: if a tree takes off its mask in the forest, does it …
–TP
CharlesWT: Such as requiring masks outside in open spaces where people are not near each other.
Sincere question: where/when did that happen, and how was it enforced?
Irresistible snark: if a tree takes off its mask in the forest, does it …
–TP
Assault. I’m a fervent mask requirer. I think a 3 week enforced quarantine for simply thinking about coughing on someones food. Every building in the country should have a No shirt, No shoes, No mask, No service sign
Assault. I’m a fervent mask requirer. I think a 3 week enforced quarantine for simply thinking about coughing on someones food. Every building in the country should have a No shirt, No shoes, No mask, No service sign
Every building in the country should have a No shirt, No shoes, No mask, No service sign
Enforcement here got quite lax for a while after an employee pointed out the sign and refused entry to a customer, and the customer pulled out their concealed handgun and shot the employee. It wasn’t fatal for the employee and the customer will be going to jail for a long time but staff are reluctant to actually deny service.
Almost everyone here is doing the best they can. It’s the small population of total loons that are the problem.
Every building in the country should have a No shirt, No shoes, No mask, No service sign
Enforcement here got quite lax for a while after an employee pointed out the sign and refused entry to a customer, and the customer pulled out their concealed handgun and shot the employee. It wasn’t fatal for the employee and the customer will be going to jail for a long time but staff are reluctant to actually deny service.
Almost everyone here is doing the best they can. It’s the small population of total loons that are the problem.
Sincere question: where/when did that happen, and how was it enforced?
aren’t masks required everywhere (outside your own house) in many countries?
i wear one whenever i go to a store. but if i’m just outside (ex. running) i never do. i do live in the woods, where it’s not unusual to literally never see another person while i’m out running, though.
Sincere question: where/when did that happen, and how was it enforced?
aren’t masks required everywhere (outside your own house) in many countries?
i wear one whenever i go to a store. but if i’m just outside (ex. running) i never do. i do live in the woods, where it’s not unusual to literally never see another person while i’m out running, though.
I saw this article by Timothy E. Wirth and Tom Rogers, and it is frightening.
Someone put me at ease, please.
I saw this article by Timothy E. Wirth and Tom Rogers, and it is frightening.
Someone put me at ease, please.
liberals have guns, too.
liberals have guns, too.
liberals have guns, too.
liberals have guns, too.
wth
wth
Sapient, that kind of scenario requires that people acquiesce. Specifically, it requires that the military and (federal) law enforcement people go along with it. Some of them no doubt would. But most of them actually take their oaths seriously.
At which point, Trump’s only hope would be an overt militia-based coup. Which they can’t win if the military won’t roll over — the technology is long past the point where farmers with their hunting guns could stage a Civil War and make it last. And they wouldn’t.
Feel better?
Sapient, that kind of scenario requires that people acquiesce. Specifically, it requires that the military and (federal) law enforcement people go along with it. Some of them no doubt would. But most of them actually take their oaths seriously.
At which point, Trump’s only hope would be an overt militia-based coup. Which they can’t win if the military won’t roll over — the technology is long past the point where farmers with their hunting guns could stage a Civil War and make it last. And they wouldn’t.
Feel better?
John Roberts likes being Chief Justice of the United States. Installing single-party reactionary rule means he serves at the pleasure of the party, and the current head guy prefers a court led by a yes-man. Roberts and the four liberals can simply rule that Congress can’t constitutionally cede that much authority to the President, national emergency or no, and the whole scheme falls apart. I think Gorsuch would go the same way, and Thomas should as well given the single party’s attitude towards people of color.
John Roberts likes being Chief Justice of the United States. Installing single-party reactionary rule means he serves at the pleasure of the party, and the current head guy prefers a court led by a yes-man. Roberts and the four liberals can simply rule that Congress can’t constitutionally cede that much authority to the President, national emergency or no, and the whole scheme falls apart. I think Gorsuch would go the same way, and Thomas should as well given the single party’s attitude towards people of color.
I think you are wrong wj. It could work right up to the deadline but the SC would uphold the Demicrats right to have the four states electors count.
But,Trump wont win more than 15 states, the electoral count wont come down to 4 states and the Chinese crap wont get past the first court hearing.
So, dont worry. Joe Biden is the best thing the Democrats ever did. I talked to 4 Trump supporters, real supporters, this week and all said they loved Trump but we cant live with four more years of this, (The media always wins) since its Biden they would rather suffer through 4 years of him and hope the overall hatefest settles a little.
He cant win without those people.
I think you are wrong wj. It could work right up to the deadline but the SC would uphold the Demicrats right to have the four states electors count.
But,Trump wont win more than 15 states, the electoral count wont come down to 4 states and the Chinese crap wont get past the first court hearing.
So, dont worry. Joe Biden is the best thing the Democrats ever did. I talked to 4 Trump supporters, real supporters, this week and all said they loved Trump but we cant live with four more years of this, (The media always wins) since its Biden they would rather suffer through 4 years of him and hope the overall hatefest settles a little.
He cant win without those people.
Sincere question: where/when did that happen, and how was it enforced?
One example is Riverside County, CA in early April. There may be others.
“It’s unclear when deputies would issue fines or arrest people who violate the face mask order, but the county said local law enforcement agencies had the power to enforce the order “as they deem necessary.”
Bianco noted that the enforcement may include fines or imprisonment, but stressed that his department would not set up roadside checkpoints to stop vehicles or people hiking, walking or running without masks.
“We will not be setting up any type of police state,” he said. “And, this is not a declaration of martial law in Riverside County.””
California sheriff says public health officer’s coronavirus order to cover faces ‘enforceable,’ but calls for calm (April 7)
Sincere question: where/when did that happen, and how was it enforced?
One example is Riverside County, CA in early April. There may be others.
“It’s unclear when deputies would issue fines or arrest people who violate the face mask order, but the county said local law enforcement agencies had the power to enforce the order “as they deem necessary.”
Bianco noted that the enforcement may include fines or imprisonment, but stressed that his department would not set up roadside checkpoints to stop vehicles or people hiking, walking or running without masks.
“We will not be setting up any type of police state,” he said. “And, this is not a declaration of martial law in Riverside County.””
California sheriff says public health officer’s coronavirus order to cover faces ‘enforceable,’ but calls for calm (April 7)
He cant win without those people.
Works for me.
He cant win without those people.
Works for me.
Thanks. I do feel better because y’all are here.
Thanks. I do feel better because y’all are here.
CharlesWT – the CA face mask order does not require a mask when outdoors and exercising or when just around the household, only when around others in a situation where one cannot socially distance. It does apply when in public waiting in line or in a parking structure or other public access way.
CharlesWT – the CA face mask order does not require a mask when outdoors and exercising or when just around the household, only when around others in a situation where one cannot socially distance. It does apply when in public waiting in line or in a parking structure or other public access way.
And public health is bad because public health people talk about sex and indoctrinate children to become LGBT and go to Planned Parenthood and become satanic witches.
nous, as so often, you delight me. But catching up on this thread, what really cheers me up is Marty’s report of his interview with the four Trump supporters. Marty, FYLTGE.
And public health is bad because public health people talk about sex and indoctrinate children to become LGBT and go to Planned Parenthood and become satanic witches.
nous, as so often, you delight me. But catching up on this thread, what really cheers me up is Marty’s report of his interview with the four Trump supporters. Marty, FYLTGE.
I’m thinking we really dodged a bullet by nominating Biden rather than a woman or a minority….
I’m thinking we really dodged a bullet by nominating Biden rather than a woman or a minority….
Sometimes (2008) the right thing to do is take a chance and see if you can break new ground. Other times, and I’d say that this year is one, the right thing to do is minimize your risk and take the conservative course. Because the downside risk is just way too high.
If we get rid of Trump this year, we can think about breaking new ground down the road. But make no mistake, this time we’re all-in. Lose, and chances are there is no future opportunity any time soon. As in, in our lifetimes. Yeah, I think the stakes are just that high.
Sometimes (2008) the right thing to do is take a chance and see if you can break new ground. Other times, and I’d say that this year is one, the right thing to do is minimize your risk and take the conservative course. Because the downside risk is just way too high.
If we get rid of Trump this year, we can think about breaking new ground down the road. But make no mistake, this time we’re all-in. Lose, and chances are there is no future opportunity any time soon. As in, in our lifetimes. Yeah, I think the stakes are just that high.
I’m assuming that wj’s comment is a response to mine and as such, I think it is a fair point. On the level of systems, yes, this is a all or nothing moment.
But that shouldn’t normalize things. I’m not going to play what-if, but I will say that maybe one of the reasons that we are at an all or nothing moment is because we didn’t take the idea of diversity seriously before.
This isn’t to take it out on anyone here. I will pass on these two articles that might be related and ask that you think about them.
https://www.sapiens.org/archaeology/archaeology-diversity/
https://dougsarchaeology.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/archaeologists-the-whitest-people-i-know/
I’m assuming that wj’s comment is a response to mine and as such, I think it is a fair point. On the level of systems, yes, this is a all or nothing moment.
But that shouldn’t normalize things. I’m not going to play what-if, but I will say that maybe one of the reasons that we are at an all or nothing moment is because we didn’t take the idea of diversity seriously before.
This isn’t to take it out on anyone here. I will pass on these two articles that might be related and ask that you think about them.
https://www.sapiens.org/archaeology/archaeology-diversity/
https://dougsarchaeology.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/archaeologists-the-whitest-people-i-know/
In rightwing disinformation campaign news
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/07/08/facebook-removes-network-of-inauthentic-behavior-tied-to-roger-stone.html
In rightwing disinformation campaign news
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/07/08/facebook-removes-network-of-inauthentic-behavior-tied-to-roger-stone.html
LJ posted:
>>>I’m thinking we really dodged a bullet by nominating Biden rather than a woman or a minority….
No one is super-excited about Biden, but when I hear this (and it’s not an uncommon sentiment so I’m not picking on LJ), it strikes a dissonant chord. Black folks fueled Biden’s nomination. Black folks had non-white candidates to choose from, including a non-white female. Black primary voters overwhelmingly chose Biden and I get really uncomfortable when progs imply that these voters are not woke enough.
Again, not saying that LJ was going there, but I hear this too often and it bugs me.
Partial disclosure: I have someone close to me who works for Clyburn so I may have some bias.
LJ posted:
>>>I’m thinking we really dodged a bullet by nominating Biden rather than a woman or a minority….
No one is super-excited about Biden, but when I hear this (and it’s not an uncommon sentiment so I’m not picking on LJ), it strikes a dissonant chord. Black folks fueled Biden’s nomination. Black folks had non-white candidates to choose from, including a non-white female. Black primary voters overwhelmingly chose Biden and I get really uncomfortable when progs imply that these voters are not woke enough.
Again, not saying that LJ was going there, but I hear this too often and it bugs me.
Partial disclosure: I have someone close to me who works for Clyburn so I may have some bias.
Hi Pollo, no worries. I have basically the same take as John Stewart, which is he wasn’t my first choice or even my top four. However, he’s has something that we really need, which is someone who knows what loss is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po22b-_bt2k
Hi Pollo, no worries. I have basically the same take as John Stewart, which is he wasn’t my first choice or even my top four. However, he’s has something that we really need, which is someone who knows what loss is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po22b-_bt2k
If Biden picks Stacey Abrams for VP, she’ll get to boss around the Senate, which will be *sweet*.
If Biden picks Stacey Abrams for VP, she’ll get to boss around the Senate, which will be *sweet*.
he’s has something that we really need, which is someone who knows what loss is.
No offense, but I’d say that this is one of those times when we what we need is the person with the best chance of winning. Full stop. Which, in the opinion of Democratic primary voters, is Biden.
And, in the opinion of this Republican anyway, they’re not wrong. I may have had others in the Democratic race that I was more partial to. As did, so far as I can tell, pretty much everyone here. I wouldn’t be surprised if that was even true of a fair number of Biden primary voters. But . . . priorities.
he’s has something that we really need, which is someone who knows what loss is.
No offense, but I’d say that this is one of those times when we what we need is the person with the best chance of winning. Full stop. Which, in the opinion of Democratic primary voters, is Biden.
And, in the opinion of this Republican anyway, they’re not wrong. I may have had others in the Democratic race that I was more partial to. As did, so far as I can tell, pretty much everyone here. I wouldn’t be surprised if that was even true of a fair number of Biden primary voters. But . . . priorities.
I generally agree with the idea that Biden is a more palatable candidate to people who are politically middle of the road than many or most of the other (D)’s running this year.
If that means that, on net, fewer people are alienated by a Biden win, all to the good. Even if folks looking for a progressive hero don’t get everything they want.
Number 1 priority, to me, is getting Trump the hell out of the White House. Anyone concerned about “hatefests” and “divisiveness” should be on board with that, he is a one-man fountain of hate and division.
If folks not necessarily inclined to vote (D) find Biden to be an acceptable option, all good.
Ham sandwich, y’all. Who knows, maybe he’ll do a really good job. At a minimum, he knows his way around. Stranger things have happened.
I generally agree with the idea that Biden is a more palatable candidate to people who are politically middle of the road than many or most of the other (D)’s running this year.
If that means that, on net, fewer people are alienated by a Biden win, all to the good. Even if folks looking for a progressive hero don’t get everything they want.
Number 1 priority, to me, is getting Trump the hell out of the White House. Anyone concerned about “hatefests” and “divisiveness” should be on board with that, he is a one-man fountain of hate and division.
If folks not necessarily inclined to vote (D) find Biden to be an acceptable option, all good.
Ham sandwich, y’all. Who knows, maybe he’ll do a really good job. At a minimum, he knows his way around. Stranger things have happened.
I may have had others in the Democratic race that I was more partial to. As did, so far as I can tell, pretty much everyone here.
Warren was top of my list.
Biden won. I’m fine with it, and not just in an “any port in a storm” way. The fact that a lot of people who are, basically, afraid of a (D) POTUS are comfortable with Biden is a good thing, IMO.
Warren’s my senator, she’s not going anywhere, other folks like her will likewise still be around. My own preferences policy-wise will still be represented.
If Biden’s the guy everyone can live with, then it seems to me that Biden’s as good a choice as any and better than most.
I may have had others in the Democratic race that I was more partial to. As did, so far as I can tell, pretty much everyone here.
Warren was top of my list.
Biden won. I’m fine with it, and not just in an “any port in a storm” way. The fact that a lot of people who are, basically, afraid of a (D) POTUS are comfortable with Biden is a good thing, IMO.
Warren’s my senator, she’s not going anywhere, other folks like her will likewise still be around. My own preferences policy-wise will still be represented.
If Biden’s the guy everyone can live with, then it seems to me that Biden’s as good a choice as any and better than most.
There’s also the detail, for those who would prefer someone more progressive, that Biden may win big enough that his coattail generate a Democratically controlled Senate. Which is a prerequisite for getting any of the changes to the law that you want.
Not to mention the growing possibility of changing some state legislatures in advance of redistricting. And if, as seems amazingly possible, Texas is one of those, he will have changed national politics as well for a decade or more.
There’s also the detail, for those who would prefer someone more progressive, that Biden may win big enough that his coattail generate a Democratically controlled Senate. Which is a prerequisite for getting any of the changes to the law that you want.
Not to mention the growing possibility of changing some state legislatures in advance of redistricting. And if, as seems amazingly possible, Texas is one of those, he will have changed national politics as well for a decade or more.
No offense, but I’d say that this is one of those times when we what we need is the person with the best chance of winning. Full stop.
We can need more than one thing. Even if I grant that what we need most is the best chance of winning, that doesn’t mean Biden can’t possibly bring something else that we need as a nation at this particular time.
There’s also a certain circularity to the idea that we need someone with the best chance of winning. Why does someone have the best chance of winning? Because people will vote for that person for various reasons. What are those reasons? Why do they matter to people? Those things, in aggregate, are what gives someone the best chance of winning.
You don’t have the best chance of winning because … you have the best chance of winning.
No offense, but I’d say that this is one of those times when we what we need is the person with the best chance of winning. Full stop.
We can need more than one thing. Even if I grant that what we need most is the best chance of winning, that doesn’t mean Biden can’t possibly bring something else that we need as a nation at this particular time.
There’s also a certain circularity to the idea that we need someone with the best chance of winning. Why does someone have the best chance of winning? Because people will vote for that person for various reasons. What are those reasons? Why do they matter to people? Those things, in aggregate, are what gives someone the best chance of winning.
You don’t have the best chance of winning because … you have the best chance of winning.
On the subject of winning the Senate, this zinger from the Lincoln Project
https://lincolnproject.us/news/names/
On the subject of winning the Senate, this zinger from the Lincoln Project
https://lincolnproject.us/news/names/
wj,
You get no argument from me on 2020. He, Trump must be defeated — and be seen to be defeated, to borrow Maggie Thatcher’s admonition about dealing with tinpot tyrants.
Now, what was the GOP calculus in 2016? With lots of candidates to choose from, and knowing they’d face the devil incarnate come November, did Republicans coalesce around their most “electable” candidate? No fair peeking ahead to assess “electability” post hoc.
Incidentally, I don’t think anybody ever called Barack Obama “The Electable One” in 2008 either.
In strictly political terms, the main difference between 2020 and either 2008 or 2016 is incumbency. I’ve pointed out many times that Americans habitually re-elect incumbent presidents and then switch parties in the White House. The last incumbent to fail of re-election was Poppy Bush, and he was essentially the 3rd term of Ronald Regan. The one before that was Jimmy Carter. Both of them lost in large part because of strong challenges from within their own party. It’s not clear that the Never-Trumpers amount to such a challenge. And who did Poppy and Jimmy lose to? Safe, Establishment opponents? Or shoot-the-moon upstarts? I think it’s fair to say that Reagan wasn’t the Establishment guy when he beat Carter, and Clinton wasn’t the Establishment guy when he beat Bush.
Having observed many years ago that I thought Joe Biden would make a better president than he ever was a candidate, I am delighted he is our nominee. But I’m not sanguine that he is “electable” due to being the “safe choice”. Anti-incumbent elections are different from open-seat ones. Mitt Romney, central casting’s version of a presidential candidate and surely Establishment, failed to defeat Obama despite being a “safe choice”.
The main thing Biden has going for him — as a challenger — is widespread disgust with the incumbent. Is that disgust widespread enough? I certainly hope so.
–TP
wj,
You get no argument from me on 2020. He, Trump must be defeated — and be seen to be defeated, to borrow Maggie Thatcher’s admonition about dealing with tinpot tyrants.
Now, what was the GOP calculus in 2016? With lots of candidates to choose from, and knowing they’d face the devil incarnate come November, did Republicans coalesce around their most “electable” candidate? No fair peeking ahead to assess “electability” post hoc.
Incidentally, I don’t think anybody ever called Barack Obama “The Electable One” in 2008 either.
In strictly political terms, the main difference between 2020 and either 2008 or 2016 is incumbency. I’ve pointed out many times that Americans habitually re-elect incumbent presidents and then switch parties in the White House. The last incumbent to fail of re-election was Poppy Bush, and he was essentially the 3rd term of Ronald Regan. The one before that was Jimmy Carter. Both of them lost in large part because of strong challenges from within their own party. It’s not clear that the Never-Trumpers amount to such a challenge. And who did Poppy and Jimmy lose to? Safe, Establishment opponents? Or shoot-the-moon upstarts? I think it’s fair to say that Reagan wasn’t the Establishment guy when he beat Carter, and Clinton wasn’t the Establishment guy when he beat Bush.
Having observed many years ago that I thought Joe Biden would make a better president than he ever was a candidate, I am delighted he is our nominee. But I’m not sanguine that he is “electable” due to being the “safe choice”. Anti-incumbent elections are different from open-seat ones. Mitt Romney, central casting’s version of a presidential candidate and surely Establishment, failed to defeat Obama despite being a “safe choice”.
The main thing Biden has going for him — as a challenger — is widespread disgust with the incumbent. Is that disgust widespread enough? I certainly hope so.
–TP
While most of the media is more interested in the Trump tax return subpoena cases the SCOTUS ruled on this morning (my summary: the President is not a king, which should ease sapient’s mind, but there are i’s to be dotted and t’s to be crossed, so no tax returns before election day), I personally find McGirt v. Oklahoma the most interesting of the three.
I put it in a category with Arizona v. Arizona from a few years ago. In that one, Kennedy surprised almost everyone by siding with the use of ballot initiatives. Kennedy served in the 9th Circuit before reaching the SCOTUS. Ballot initiatives are a real thing in the 9th. Gorsuch surprised almost everyone today by siding with the tribes. Gorsuch served in the 10th Circuit before reaching the SCOTUS. Tribe-state jurisdictional conflicts are a real thing in the 10th.
Today the Supreme Court is almost all justices who served in the northeast urban corridor. I sometimes wonder if things might be different if more of the Circuit Court areas were represented.
While most of the media is more interested in the Trump tax return subpoena cases the SCOTUS ruled on this morning (my summary: the President is not a king, which should ease sapient’s mind, but there are i’s to be dotted and t’s to be crossed, so no tax returns before election day), I personally find McGirt v. Oklahoma the most interesting of the three.
I put it in a category with Arizona v. Arizona from a few years ago. In that one, Kennedy surprised almost everyone by siding with the use of ballot initiatives. Kennedy served in the 9th Circuit before reaching the SCOTUS. Ballot initiatives are a real thing in the 9th. Gorsuch surprised almost everyone today by siding with the tribes. Gorsuch served in the 10th Circuit before reaching the SCOTUS. Tribe-state jurisdictional conflicts are a real thing in the 10th.
Today the Supreme Court is almost all justices who served in the northeast urban corridor. I sometimes wonder if things might be different if more of the Circuit Court areas were represented.
there are i’s to be dotted and t’s to be crossed, so no tax returns before election day
No tax returns for Congress. But the DA who was asking for them does get them.
It won’t make them public to influence the election. But Trump must be frantic. Especially as it means that, win or lose, he may find himself under indictment. (Which he likely would have avoided, had he not won….)
there are i’s to be dotted and t’s to be crossed, so no tax returns before election day
No tax returns for Congress. But the DA who was asking for them does get them.
It won’t make them public to influence the election. But Trump must be frantic. Especially as it means that, win or lose, he may find himself under indictment. (Which he likely would have avoided, had he not won….)
I don’t think anybody ever called Barack Obama “The Electable One” in 2008 either.
No. But then, Palin’s manifold shortcomings notwithstanding, McCain was nothing like as bad as Trump. Which is to say, the downside risk was smaller, and therefore might be worth taking. In that case.
I don’t think anybody ever called Barack Obama “The Electable One” in 2008 either.
No. But then, Palin’s manifold shortcomings notwithstanding, McCain was nothing like as bad as Trump. Which is to say, the downside risk was smaller, and therefore might be worth taking. In that case.
Biden’s strength, IMO, is that he’s just such a normal, fundamentally decent guy.
yeah, he has a temper, and he likes to bullshit a bit too much, and he’s handsy in a way that was tolerated 40 years ago but has rightfully fallen out of favor.
even with all that, he’s not an internet troll. he’s not a seething pit resentment and insecurity and racism and sexism and hatred. he’s not a petulant and proudly-ignorant child. he’s not going to try to turn the WH into a vehicle to shovel money into his personal businesses.
he’s just an affable guy who seems to mean well but who’s a few years out of step with a few cultural changes. most people can relate to him as a person.
policy-wise, he’ll be fine. he’ll probably sign anything the Dems in Congress give him. he’ll send a lot of Trump’s policy garbage off to the dump. and he’ll staff the govt with boring career civil servants.
there will be things to complain about and things to cheer. but i won’t wake up every morning hoping to learn that the President has keeled over on the toilet, the way i do now.
Biden’s strength, IMO, is that he’s just such a normal, fundamentally decent guy.
yeah, he has a temper, and he likes to bullshit a bit too much, and he’s handsy in a way that was tolerated 40 years ago but has rightfully fallen out of favor.
even with all that, he’s not an internet troll. he’s not a seething pit resentment and insecurity and racism and sexism and hatred. he’s not a petulant and proudly-ignorant child. he’s not going to try to turn the WH into a vehicle to shovel money into his personal businesses.
he’s just an affable guy who seems to mean well but who’s a few years out of step with a few cultural changes. most people can relate to him as a person.
policy-wise, he’ll be fine. he’ll probably sign anything the Dems in Congress give him. he’ll send a lot of Trump’s policy garbage off to the dump. and he’ll staff the govt with boring career civil servants.
there will be things to complain about and things to cheer. but i won’t wake up every morning hoping to learn that the President has keeled over on the toilet, the way i do now.
Which is to say, the downside risk was smaller, and therefore might be worth taking. In that case.
I don’t think it’s a question of risk. I think it’s more a matter of whether or not electability is a valid reason to vote for someone (when lots of people voting for someone is what makes them electable).
Which is to say, the downside risk was smaller, and therefore might be worth taking. In that case.
I don’t think it’s a question of risk. I think it’s more a matter of whether or not electability is a valid reason to vote for someone (when lots of people voting for someone is what makes them electable).
hsh, I think that’s inevitably a chicken and egg argument.
That said, voting based on “electability” is a matter of taking a personal decision based on a judgement of what other people will do.
hsh, I think that’s inevitably a chicken and egg argument.
That said, voting based on “electability” is a matter of taking a personal decision based on a judgement of what other people will do.
But the DA who was asking for them does get them.
The DA may continue to pursue them. The President’s argument that they should not be allowed based on absolute immunity and heightened scrutiny is rejected. The decision explicitly states, though
Back to federal court where the President’s legal team gets an opportunity to argue the subpoenas should not be granted for various reasons, plus appeals. No one is going to see the tax returns before the election.
But the DA who was asking for them does get them.
The DA may continue to pursue them. The President’s argument that they should not be allowed based on absolute immunity and heightened scrutiny is rejected. The decision explicitly states, though
Back to federal court where the President’s legal team gets an opportunity to argue the subpoenas should not be granted for various reasons, plus appeals. No one is going to see the tax returns before the election.
I think electability has at least three variables. It is not simply a lot of people voting for them.
First, they need a core of supporters that will vote for them as their first choice.
Second, they need to be able to capture votes from people for whom they were not the number one choice.
Third, they would preferably not drive higher opposition votes because they are perceived as too far out of the mainstream.
Number 3 was what Biden had that made him more “electable”. Less people voting for the competition is a distinct advantage that is not the same as a lot of folks willing to vote for you.
I think electability has at least three variables. It is not simply a lot of people voting for them.
First, they need a core of supporters that will vote for them as their first choice.
Second, they need to be able to capture votes from people for whom they were not the number one choice.
Third, they would preferably not drive higher opposition votes because they are perceived as too far out of the mainstream.
Number 3 was what Biden had that made him more “electable”. Less people voting for the competition is a distinct advantage that is not the same as a lot of folks willing to vote for you.
Michael, but since Trump isn’t the one being subpoenaed by the New York grand jury, and since the Supreme Court has just said he doesn’t have immunity from investigation, it’s not really clear that he has standing to contest it.
Michael, but since Trump isn’t the one being subpoenaed by the New York grand jury, and since the Supreme Court has just said he doesn’t have immunity from investigation, it’s not really clear that he has standing to contest it.
Who among us doesn’t like a ham sandwich?
Who among us doesn’t like a ham sandwich?
Less people voting for the competition is a distinct advantage that is not the same as a lot of folks willing to vote for you.
True. So lots more people willing to vote for you than the other candidate(s) would be a more comprehensive way of putting it. Either way, the question is whether that is a metric anyone can measure before an election, at least short of a total boob running. Even then, we got the current WH occupant.
Third, they would preferably not drive higher opposition votes because they are perceived as too far out of the mainstream.
So what if you ran a former first lady, senator, and secretary of state (pretty mainstream!) against a reality-TV “personality” and known con artist who couldn’t construct a coherent series of sentences when speaking?
Less people voting for the competition is a distinct advantage that is not the same as a lot of folks willing to vote for you.
True. So lots more people willing to vote for you than the other candidate(s) would be a more comprehensive way of putting it. Either way, the question is whether that is a metric anyone can measure before an election, at least short of a total boob running. Even then, we got the current WH occupant.
Third, they would preferably not drive higher opposition votes because they are perceived as too far out of the mainstream.
So what if you ran a former first lady, senator, and secretary of state (pretty mainstream!) against a reality-TV “personality” and known con artist who couldn’t construct a coherent series of sentences when speaking?
So I think the problem is that people keep explaining the idea of electability when I think everyone has a pretty good grasp on it. I also understand well enough what astrology is, but it doesn’t mean I think it’s useful.
So I think the problem is that people keep explaining the idea of electability when I think everyone has a pretty good grasp on it. I also understand well enough what astrology is, but it doesn’t mean I think it’s useful.
So what if you ran a former first lady, senator, and secretary of state (pretty mainstream!) against a reality-TV “personality” and known con artist who couldn’t construct a coherent series of sentences when speaking?
First, there’s the question of whether, just because all of us knew he was a con artist, it was really well known across the electorate. And second, perhaps we mis-estimate what/where the mainstream really is. Maybe it’s closer to the folks who believe that professional wrestling is a sport, rather than scripted, than we would like.
So what if you ran a former first lady, senator, and secretary of state (pretty mainstream!) against a reality-TV “personality” and known con artist who couldn’t construct a coherent series of sentences when speaking?
First, there’s the question of whether, just because all of us knew he was a con artist, it was really well known across the electorate. And second, perhaps we mis-estimate what/where the mainstream really is. Maybe it’s closer to the folks who believe that professional wrestling is a sport, rather than scripted, than we would like.
Wj, they’ll have to be down in the weeds on that one. AIUI, the prosecutor subpoenaed several years of tax returns for Trump’s personal and corporate identities. The latter will be tricky. The Trump Organization is 500+ interlocking LLCs with Trump either directly or indirectly the controlling member of all the important ones. I know that the IRS doesn’t recognize LLCs as a separate category, for federal tax purposes they’re either sole proprietorships or partnerships. I assume the controlling member(s) of a partnership have standing.
I’ve said all along that most of the subpoenas could be tied up for years simply by making the prosecutor establish relevancy for each of the LLCs whose records he wants.
Wj, they’ll have to be down in the weeds on that one. AIUI, the prosecutor subpoenaed several years of tax returns for Trump’s personal and corporate identities. The latter will be tricky. The Trump Organization is 500+ interlocking LLCs with Trump either directly or indirectly the controlling member of all the important ones. I know that the IRS doesn’t recognize LLCs as a separate category, for federal tax purposes they’re either sole proprietorships or partnerships. I assume the controlling member(s) of a partnership have standing.
I’ve said all along that most of the subpoenas could be tied up for years simply by making the prosecutor establish relevancy for each of the LLCs whose records he wants.
First, there’s the question of whether, just because all of us knew he was a con artist, it was really well known across the electorate. And second, perhaps we mis-estimate what/where the mainstream really is. Maybe it’s closer to the folks who believe that professional wrestling is a sport, rather than scripted, than we would like.
All of which seems to me to boil down to “electability is unmeasurable” in even what appears to be the most obvious case.
First, there’s the question of whether, just because all of us knew he was a con artist, it was really well known across the electorate. And second, perhaps we mis-estimate what/where the mainstream really is. Maybe it’s closer to the folks who believe that professional wrestling is a sport, rather than scripted, than we would like.
All of which seems to me to boil down to “electability is unmeasurable” in even what appears to be the most obvious case.
never forget: Trump lost the popular vote, by a lot, and he only barely won the states that put him over the top. and he won the GOP primaries by raking up a bunch of early plurality wins while the mainstream candidates split their votes and messaging.
whatever his actual electability is has been refracted through the (indefensible) kaleidoscope of the electoral college and the absurd primary process.
never forget: Trump lost the popular vote, by a lot, and he only barely won the states that put him over the top. and he won the GOP primaries by raking up a bunch of early plurality wins while the mainstream candidates split their votes and messaging.
whatever his actual electability is has been refracted through the (indefensible) kaleidoscope of the electoral college and the absurd primary process.
Michael, but the subpoenas aren’t for Trump or any of his manifold organizations. They are for an accounting firm. (Which has indicated it will comply.) Which means that Trump a) doesn’t control the records (attorney client doesn’t apply) and b) doesn’t have to expend any time or effort to comply (so no direct impact on his duties as POTUS). Trying to claim some kind of blanket presidential immunity was all he had. And he just lost that one.
How long it will be until the grand jury comes out with indictments, and the relevant records get unsealed, is another question. Guesses range from
Michael, but the subpoenas aren’t for Trump or any of his manifold organizations. They are for an accounting firm. (Which has indicated it will comply.) Which means that Trump a) doesn’t control the records (attorney client doesn’t apply) and b) doesn’t have to expend any time or effort to comply (so no direct impact on his duties as POTUS). Trying to claim some kind of blanket presidential immunity was all he had. And he just lost that one.
How long it will be until the grand jury comes out with indictments, and the relevant records get unsealed, is another question. Guesses range from
Wj, I’ll take your word for it that if they subpoena my accountant I lack standing to object (say, on the grounds that it’s a fishing expedition and they have given no reason to subpoena records for that particular LLC).
If we’re betting on the GJ status, I’ll go with “they’re barely started.” My thinking is that even if the accountants do a core dump, the forensic accountants will be months sorting things out. Which goes along with what I said when the special prosecutor started poking: “The family is almost certainly guilty of money laundering but it will take a team of forensic accountants with access to the books five years to prove it.”
Wj, I’ll take your word for it that if they subpoena my accountant I lack standing to object (say, on the grounds that it’s a fishing expedition and they have given no reason to subpoena records for that particular LLC).
If we’re betting on the GJ status, I’ll go with “they’re barely started.” My thinking is that even if the accountants do a core dump, the forensic accountants will be months sorting things out. Which goes along with what I said when the special prosecutor started poking: “The family is almost certainly guilty of money laundering but it will take a team of forensic accountants with access to the books five years to prove it.”
If you’re gonna do crimes, best to stay out of the public eye.
If you’re gonna do crimes, best to stay out of the public eye.
If you’re gonna do crimes, best to stay out of the public eye.
Hard to do when the crimes you aim to commit require you to be in the public eye in order to pull off the caper.
If you’re gonna do crimes, best to stay out of the public eye.
Hard to do when the crimes you aim to commit require you to be in the public eye in order to pull off the caper.
Trump is hiding in plain sight.
The White House is a Safe House for these criminals.
The place might as well be a beach front deposit box in the Barbados.
The Hole In the Head Gang.
Natch, if Biden or any Democrat enters the place, corrupt criminal superspreader Republicans will go full Barney Fife and declare their precious bullsh*t Presidential herd immunity unConstitutional for even the smallest infractions.
Biden would do well in that respect to keep William Barr at Justice.
Preferably lying in state in the lobby after the undertaker’s cosmetician puts him back together for public viewing.
Trump is hiding in plain sight.
The White House is a Safe House for these criminals.
The place might as well be a beach front deposit box in the Barbados.
The Hole In the Head Gang.
Natch, if Biden or any Democrat enters the place, corrupt criminal superspreader Republicans will go full Barney Fife and declare their precious bullsh*t Presidential herd immunity unConstitutional for even the smallest infractions.
Biden would do well in that respect to keep William Barr at Justice.
Preferably lying in state in the lobby after the undertaker’s cosmetician puts him back together for public viewing.
“The family is almost certainly guilty of money laundering but it will take a team of forensic accountants with access to the books five years to prove it.”
To uncover all of it, five years is probably optimistic. On the other hand, if it’s as dirty as I suspect, they could find enough to start issuing indictments a lot sooner. And, especially if they can show that the accountants were a party to some of the illegal activities, getting them to flip could move things along a lot faster.
“The family is almost certainly guilty of money laundering but it will take a team of forensic accountants with access to the books five years to prove it.”
To uncover all of it, five years is probably optimistic. On the other hand, if it’s as dirty as I suspect, they could find enough to start issuing indictments a lot sooner. And, especially if they can show that the accountants were a party to some of the illegal activities, getting them to flip could move things along a lot faster.
So – my opinion, based on what we do know about Trump’s businesses, is that he’s a crook. Tax cheat, general purpose fraudster, almost certainly money launderer for international kleptos, especially Russians.
Folks may disagree, that’s my opinion. We may never know the truth of it in detail, but this is a blog, not a court of law, and what I’ve said above seems… not overly controversial. To me, at least.
There is, for lack of a better term, a field of play within which you can maybe get away with stuff like that. If it’s not obscenely egregious, if you have a lot of money and enough lawyers to make it a royal PITA for law enforcement to pursue, if your particular bad behavior is not that unusual for your industry, if you know people and can call in a favor here and there.
As long as Trump was merely famous loudmouth blowhard reality TV guy and occasional guest on the Howard Stern show, he could mostly get away with it. What he couldn’t get away with, he could throw money and lawyers at and settle.
The rules are different for POTUS.
Some might say you can actually get away with *more* as POTUS, and there’s something to that, I guess. But the stuff you can get away with is of a different character.
Garden variety chiseling, even if on a large scale, falls outside the scope of what you can sweep under the rug, as POTUS.
Trump’s a garden-variety chiseler, at epic scale. Hard to pull that off under the microscope. So far he’s avoided the microscope with his bizarre claims of universal executive privilege.
No more.
So – my opinion, based on what we do know about Trump’s businesses, is that he’s a crook. Tax cheat, general purpose fraudster, almost certainly money launderer for international kleptos, especially Russians.
Folks may disagree, that’s my opinion. We may never know the truth of it in detail, but this is a blog, not a court of law, and what I’ve said above seems… not overly controversial. To me, at least.
There is, for lack of a better term, a field of play within which you can maybe get away with stuff like that. If it’s not obscenely egregious, if you have a lot of money and enough lawyers to make it a royal PITA for law enforcement to pursue, if your particular bad behavior is not that unusual for your industry, if you know people and can call in a favor here and there.
As long as Trump was merely famous loudmouth blowhard reality TV guy and occasional guest on the Howard Stern show, he could mostly get away with it. What he couldn’t get away with, he could throw money and lawyers at and settle.
The rules are different for POTUS.
Some might say you can actually get away with *more* as POTUS, and there’s something to that, I guess. But the stuff you can get away with is of a different character.
Garden variety chiseling, even if on a large scale, falls outside the scope of what you can sweep under the rug, as POTUS.
Trump’s a garden-variety chiseler, at epic scale. Hard to pull that off under the microscope. So far he’s avoided the microscope with his bizarre claims of universal executive privilege.
No more.
A couple of basic discovery concepts w/r/t accountants. The common standard for document production (federal and most states) is that you are obligated to produce all documents that are in your “possession, custody or control.” If you give your accountant your financial papers, those papers are still in your control because the accountant works for you and he is your agent.
Absent extraordinary circumstances, accounting firms comply with a court orders to produce. I would be surprised if the Trump accountants every took a contrary position. They will leave it to the client to raise objections to the production and then follow the court order.
I would not be so sure that blanket immunity is the only argument that Trump had. For example, Florida recognizes an accountant-client privilege. I don’t think that NY has a free-standing accountant-client privilege, but almost all states allow for an attorney to seek advice from an accountant and then bring the accountant under the universally recognized attorney-client privilege. I would be shocked if Trump didn’t avail himself of this.
If nothing else, these questions can take significant time to answer.
A couple of basic discovery concepts w/r/t accountants. The common standard for document production (federal and most states) is that you are obligated to produce all documents that are in your “possession, custody or control.” If you give your accountant your financial papers, those papers are still in your control because the accountant works for you and he is your agent.
Absent extraordinary circumstances, accounting firms comply with a court orders to produce. I would be surprised if the Trump accountants every took a contrary position. They will leave it to the client to raise objections to the production and then follow the court order.
I would not be so sure that blanket immunity is the only argument that Trump had. For example, Florida recognizes an accountant-client privilege. I don’t think that NY has a free-standing accountant-client privilege, but almost all states allow for an attorney to seek advice from an accountant and then bring the accountant under the universally recognized attorney-client privilege. I would be shocked if Trump didn’t avail himself of this.
If nothing else, these questions can take significant time to answer.
On McGirt v. Oklahoma I have seen everything today from “Good job, SCOTUS” to “Stupidest decision ever” to “F*ck Oklahoma because Oklahoma” to “F*ck the Indians because Indians”. The sanest thing is probably the joint statement by the State of Oklahoma and the Five Tribes:
On McGirt v. Oklahoma I have seen everything today from “Good job, SCOTUS” to “Stupidest decision ever” to “F*ck Oklahoma because Oklahoma” to “F*ck the Indians because Indians”. The sanest thing is probably the joint statement by the State of Oklahoma and the Five Tribes:
How long can He, Trump skate politically on legalistic ice? How long can He keep up the pretense that He has no crimes to hide but only presidential privileges to protect?
I say it depends not a whit on his partisans, who probably like the fact that He is a crook. Nor does it depend on those of us who knew Him for a crook since long before He started shitting in the White House. It depends on the (large?) contingent of people willing to pretend that not-convicted is all a POTUS needs to be, no matter how thin the legal ice on which he pirouettes.
My advice to Democrats is: talk as if you take it for granted that He, Trump is a crook and let the chips fall where they may. If “independents” are so fixated on formalities as to be put off by that assumption, the election is already lost anyway.
–TP
How long can He, Trump skate politically on legalistic ice? How long can He keep up the pretense that He has no crimes to hide but only presidential privileges to protect?
I say it depends not a whit on his partisans, who probably like the fact that He is a crook. Nor does it depend on those of us who knew Him for a crook since long before He started shitting in the White House. It depends on the (large?) contingent of people willing to pretend that not-convicted is all a POTUS needs to be, no matter how thin the legal ice on which he pirouettes.
My advice to Democrats is: talk as if you take it for granted that He, Trump is a crook and let the chips fall where they may. If “independents” are so fixated on formalities as to be put off by that assumption, the election is already lost anyway.
–TP
How long?
He’s 74 years old. So far so good. And he knows how to do it. We don’t, because none of us has 74 years of rinse and repeat chops, bolstered by fully EVIL enablers all along the line, of doing it and getting away with it.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/trump-candidate-won-trump-man-lost/613960/
I’d say he’ll skate as long as he needs to, which equals his natural lifespan.
He’s the Hans Christian Anderson, the Brian Boitano of skaters.
And all along the way, when it’s required, he can find a partner or partners (release forms signed, natch, because no one is this f*ck’s partner, no matter the amount of the tax cuts bestowed as bribes, Fredo) bully into catching him just before he lands on his fat ass in front of the judges.
It’s mulligans and Roy Cohn malign viciousness all the way down. Roy Cohn, who taught Trump how to skate, and moreover to slash the skate blades across the faces of those who attack them.
Others emulate him … see the pathetic Michael Cohen (law and order conservatives sure hate them some law and order, the subhumans) who forgot to wear his mask dining out during his temporary release from jail .. about to placed back in Covid-19 prison heaven .. but they just don’t have the chops Trump has.
Joe Biden seems a fundamentally decent man, with all the fuckuppedness of your normal American decent man who ponders foreign policy from our fool’s gold mine of made-up, imaginary exceptionalism.
He will not unleash the savage fury that is needed to clean up Dodge.
Count your blessings, conservatives, and pay your taxes and shut the f*ck up.
It coulda shoulda been a lot worse.
The conservative movement maintains a deep bench of EVIL to inflict upon the country.
Trump was mere practice.
How long?
He’s 74 years old. So far so good. And he knows how to do it. We don’t, because none of us has 74 years of rinse and repeat chops, bolstered by fully EVIL enablers all along the line, of doing it and getting away with it.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/trump-candidate-won-trump-man-lost/613960/
I’d say he’ll skate as long as he needs to, which equals his natural lifespan.
He’s the Hans Christian Anderson, the Brian Boitano of skaters.
And all along the way, when it’s required, he can find a partner or partners (release forms signed, natch, because no one is this f*ck’s partner, no matter the amount of the tax cuts bestowed as bribes, Fredo) bully into catching him just before he lands on his fat ass in front of the judges.
It’s mulligans and Roy Cohn malign viciousness all the way down. Roy Cohn, who taught Trump how to skate, and moreover to slash the skate blades across the faces of those who attack them.
Others emulate him … see the pathetic Michael Cohen (law and order conservatives sure hate them some law and order, the subhumans) who forgot to wear his mask dining out during his temporary release from jail .. about to placed back in Covid-19 prison heaven .. but they just don’t have the chops Trump has.
Joe Biden seems a fundamentally decent man, with all the fuckuppedness of your normal American decent man who ponders foreign policy from our fool’s gold mine of made-up, imaginary exceptionalism.
He will not unleash the savage fury that is needed to clean up Dodge.
Count your blessings, conservatives, and pay your taxes and shut the f*ck up.
It coulda shoulda been a lot worse.
The conservative movement maintains a deep bench of EVIL to inflict upon the country.
Trump was mere practice.
see the pathetic Michael Cohen (law and order conservatives sure hate them some law and order, the subhumans) who forgot to wear his mask dining out during his temporary release from jail .. about to placed back in Covid-19 prison heaven
I though Cohen’s problem was that he’s written a book. Trump’s Board of Prisons demanded that he sign an agreement not to publish it, or talk to the media. When he declined, he got picked up.
I’ve got no brief for Cohen. But on this one it sure looks like he’s on the receiving end of another Trump perversion of the justice system.
see the pathetic Michael Cohen (law and order conservatives sure hate them some law and order, the subhumans) who forgot to wear his mask dining out during his temporary release from jail .. about to placed back in Covid-19 prison heaven
I though Cohen’s problem was that he’s written a book. Trump’s Board of Prisons demanded that he sign an agreement not to publish it, or talk to the media. When he declined, he got picked up.
I’ve got no brief for Cohen. But on this one it sure looks like he’s on the receiving end of another Trump perversion of the justice system.
I’d say he’ll skate as long as he needs to, which equals his natural lifespan.
Fine with me.
Get him out of the White House, I don’t really care about him one way or the other.
He can crap in his golden toilet until the day he drops, and then Melania and the kids can get their knives out and fight over the spoils.
Just get him the hell out of the WH.
I’d say he’ll skate as long as he needs to, which equals his natural lifespan.
Fine with me.
Get him out of the White House, I don’t really care about him one way or the other.
He can crap in his golden toilet until the day he drops, and then Melania and the kids can get their knives out and fight over the spoils.
Just get him the hell out of the WH.
“I’ve got no brief for Cohen. But on this one it sure looks like he’s on the receiving end of another Trump perversion of the justice system.”
No doubt.
Schnooks and dupes abound.
We’ll try to account for this, if the empathy gland is still secreting, in the firing squad lineup schedule.
I mean, if we execute Cohen first, Trump will crow, through his mouth gags and from shackles:
‘See, it was him, not me, whoever he is, I’ve never met him.”
If instead, we execute Trump first, his dupes, minions, sons and daughters, in laws, random voters who haven’t suffocated first mid-sentence from Covid while extolling “Make America A Piece of Shit”, the whole kit and kaboodle, will look at each other and say “Well, I guess we are well-fucked and next.”
It’s all a matter of theater.
“I’ve got no brief for Cohen. But on this one it sure looks like he’s on the receiving end of another Trump perversion of the justice system.”
No doubt.
Schnooks and dupes abound.
We’ll try to account for this, if the empathy gland is still secreting, in the firing squad lineup schedule.
I mean, if we execute Cohen first, Trump will crow, through his mouth gags and from shackles:
‘See, it was him, not me, whoever he is, I’ve never met him.”
If instead, we execute Trump first, his dupes, minions, sons and daughters, in laws, random voters who haven’t suffocated first mid-sentence from Covid while extolling “Make America A Piece of Shit”, the whole kit and kaboodle, will look at each other and say “Well, I guess we are well-fucked and next.”
It’s all a matter of theater.
In other news, I’ve heard, somewhere, that Russell is a drummer.
Just found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwMY8ldLKv4
In other news, I’ve heard, somewhere, that Russell is a drummer.
Just found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwMY8ldLKv4
In the NYT today, in a piece headed An Unexpected Struggle for Trump: Defining an Elusive Biden, this jumped out at me about the extraordinary job the rightwing have done over the years to create the caricature of HRC, which we have often discussed here:
“Trump has much less time to pile up negatives on Biden,” said Nelson Warfield, a Republican consultant who served as press secretary for Bob Dole’s presidential campaign in 1996. “I made my first negative ad starring Hillary Clinton in 1992 and I kept doing ads criticizing her across the next 24 years. And I was by no means alone. Republicans have months to do to Biden what Republicans had over two decades to do to Hillary.”
In the NYT today, in a piece headed An Unexpected Struggle for Trump: Defining an Elusive Biden, this jumped out at me about the extraordinary job the rightwing have done over the years to create the caricature of HRC, which we have often discussed here:
“Trump has much less time to pile up negatives on Biden,” said Nelson Warfield, a Republican consultant who served as press secretary for Bob Dole’s presidential campaign in 1996. “I made my first negative ad starring Hillary Clinton in 1992 and I kept doing ads criticizing her across the next 24 years. And I was by no means alone. Republicans have months to do to Biden what Republicans had over two decades to do to Hillary.”
It seems Trump has still got his weather map Sharpie
https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/07/10/trump-fay-new-hampshire/
It seems Trump has still got his weather map Sharpie
https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/07/10/trump-fay-new-hampshire/
The Party of Personal Responsibility and murderous pandemic genocidal bio-warfare:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/covid-and-flu-season-are-set-to-collide-and-experts-fear-disaster
I retract not one word I’ve written here over the past ten years regarding what is coming to them.
The Party of Personal Responsibility and murderous pandemic genocidal bio-warfare:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/covid-and-flu-season-are-set-to-collide-and-experts-fear-disaster
I retract not one word I’ve written here over the past ten years regarding what is coming to them.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/roger-stone-donald-trump-commutation-sentence-cover-up
A twofer for America’s death.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/roger-stone-donald-trump-commutation-sentence-cover-up
A twofer for America’s death.
I retract not one word I’ve written here over the past ten years regarding what is coming to them.
Hmmm. It seems that we’re the ones who are enduring that fate, not them. So good try!
I retract not one word I’ve written here over the past ten years regarding what is coming to them.
Hmmm. It seems that we’re the ones who are enduring that fate, not them. So good try!
The House should pass an impeachment resolution each and every day going forward and throw them in McConnell’s lap to make these fascists vote repeatedly to demonstrate their fealty to the thug in chief.
The House should pass an impeachment resolution each and every day going forward and throw them in McConnell’s lap to make these fascists vote repeatedly to demonstrate their fealty to the thug in chief.
The House should pass an impeachment resolution each and every day going forward and throw them in McConnell’s lap to make these fascists vote repeatedly to demonstrate their fealty to the thug in chief.
Absolutely.
The House should pass an impeachment resolution each and every day going forward and throw them in McConnell’s lap to make these fascists vote repeatedly to demonstrate their fealty to the thug in chief.
Absolutely.
we either turn this sh*t around in November, or we are fncked.
not sure what else there is to say about it.
we either turn this sh*t around in November, or we are fncked.
not sure what else there is to say about it.
not sure what else there is to say about it.
Well, I agree with that totally, but the else there is to say about it is that after we prevail we have to keep our shit together moving forward for years to come. How that works, I do not know (although my suggestions here have been roundly rejected). I will march.
not sure what else there is to say about it.
Well, I agree with that totally, but the else there is to say about it is that after we prevail we have to keep our shit together moving forward for years to come. How that works, I do not know (although my suggestions here have been roundly rejected). I will march.
Hey, if the Moss Cow Midge can reapeal Obamacare once a week, why shouldn’t the Dems impeach Jabbabonk at the same frequency?
Hey, if the Moss Cow Midge can reapeal Obamacare once a week, why shouldn’t the Dems impeach Jabbabonk at the same frequency?
Because if you want to actually accomplish something, you have to put your time and energy into that…? Just a thought. (There are less labor-intensive ways to keep Trump in freak out mode.)
Because if you want to actually accomplish something, you have to put your time and energy into that…? Just a thought. (There are less labor-intensive ways to keep Trump in freak out mode.)
Can he do that?
Can he do that?
That’s one of these context thingies. Whose impeachment? There are several interpretations (and the totally independent judiciary will use the most convenient one in each case).
it could mean for example (list incomplete):
1.an impeached president cannot pardon anymore (that would invalidate pardons issued by Bill Clinton before he left office.).
2.a president cannot pardon an impeached person (it’s not just presidents that can be impeached), i.e. (s)he cannot reverse an impeachemnt or its consequences. (so e.g. the president could not reinstall an impeached judge).
3.a president cannot pardon anyone involved in the impeachemnt process of another person (e.g. as a bribe for obstructing it).
That’s one of these context thingies. Whose impeachment? There are several interpretations (and the totally independent judiciary will use the most convenient one in each case).
it could mean for example (list incomplete):
1.an impeached president cannot pardon anymore (that would invalidate pardons issued by Bill Clinton before he left office.).
2.a president cannot pardon an impeached person (it’s not just presidents that can be impeached), i.e. (s)he cannot reverse an impeachemnt or its consequences. (so e.g. the president could not reinstall an impeached judge).
3.a president cannot pardon anyone involved in the impeachemnt process of another person (e.g. as a bribe for obstructing it).
Impeach Barr this time.
Impeach Barr this time.
Or at least bombard him with rotten peaches all the time. Should be a legitimate part of subpoenaed interviews in Congress (some strict constructionist will surely find that this was part of the original intent. He shall be put into the stocks and pelted with rotten fruit and vegetables, preferably peaches befitting his rank.)
Or at least bombard him with rotten peaches all the time. Should be a legitimate part of subpoenaed interviews in Congress (some strict constructionist will surely find that this was part of the original intent. He shall be put into the stocks and pelted with rotten fruit and vegetables, preferably peaches befitting his rank.)
Hartmut, technically Stone did not get Pardoned. He just got his sentence commuted to “time served.” Which might reduce whatever legal merit your argument has (IANAL).
Hartmut, technically Stone did not get Pardoned. He just got his sentence commuted to “time served.” Which might reduce whatever legal merit your argument has (IANAL).
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/07/why-did-trump-commute-roger-stones-sentence-instead-of-pardoning-him/
https://heavy.com/news/2020/07/blake-neff/
The enlisted military is seething with Boogaloo.
QAnon is infiltrating Congress and controls the White House.
Fascist candidates are flashing gang signs.
This guy:
https://twitter.com/Jwheels_74/status/1281324870010376192
Hat tip to Hullabaloo on that last. There are 50 million of them or more. Adolfs and Karens.
All armed. Weapons in both hands, placed there by subhuman Republicans.
I’m going to make my mark for the ham sandwich on my ballot in November.
Win or lose, it won’t be enough to exorcise what has crawled up America’s fat, dumb, conservative ass.
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/07/why-did-trump-commute-roger-stones-sentence-instead-of-pardoning-him/
https://heavy.com/news/2020/07/blake-neff/
The enlisted military is seething with Boogaloo.
QAnon is infiltrating Congress and controls the White House.
Fascist candidates are flashing gang signs.
This guy:
https://twitter.com/Jwheels_74/status/1281324870010376192
Hat tip to Hullabaloo on that last. There are 50 million of them or more. Adolfs and Karens.
All armed. Weapons in both hands, placed there by subhuman Republicans.
I’m going to make my mark for the ham sandwich on my ballot in November.
Win or lose, it won’t be enough to exorcise what has crawled up America’s fat, dumb, conservative ass.
wj, I was responding to Pro Bono.
I am aware that Jabbabonk avoided a pardon in this case.
Iirc a pardon is a double edged sword because it voids the recipient’s right to remain silent in his case. In other words, a pardon would make them potential witnesses that could be charged anew, if they refused to answer.
Also a pardon at least imples guilt and Jabbabonk’s ‘defence strategy’ is built on the claim that there was no crime in the first place (apart of course from the investigation itself).
Btw can a person get pardoned twice for the same act? Let’s say Jabbabonk pardons one of his cronies condemned for obstruction of justice/perjury etc. Said person is then called up again as a witness in the same case against Jabbabonk but lies or refuses to answer again and is charged and condemned again. Could this be pardoned again, rinse and repeat ad infinitum?
wj, I was responding to Pro Bono.
I am aware that Jabbabonk avoided a pardon in this case.
Iirc a pardon is a double edged sword because it voids the recipient’s right to remain silent in his case. In other words, a pardon would make them potential witnesses that could be charged anew, if they refused to answer.
Also a pardon at least imples guilt and Jabbabonk’s ‘defence strategy’ is built on the claim that there was no crime in the first place (apart of course from the investigation itself).
Btw can a person get pardoned twice for the same act? Let’s say Jabbabonk pardons one of his cronies condemned for obstruction of justice/perjury etc. Said person is then called up again as a witness in the same case against Jabbabonk but lies or refuses to answer again and is charged and condemned again. Could this be pardoned again, rinse and repeat ad infinitum?
The word of the day (or the week, or even the whole 4 years): brazen
https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1281694566073217024
Money quote: “even Tony Soprano would have used only a pay phone or burner phone to say something like this.” But Stone just tosees it out.
The word of the day (or the week, or even the whole 4 years): brazen
https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1281694566073217024
Money quote: “even Tony Soprano would have used only a pay phone or burner phone to say something like this.” But Stone just tosees it out.
Could this be pardoned again, rinse and repeat ad infinitum?
Yes, so long as each is a pardonable offense (federal, criminal, not impeached). So long as those are satisfied, the President can pardon who he/she wants when they want. About the only thing that’s up in the air is whether she/he can pardon themselves.
Could this be pardoned again, rinse and repeat ad infinitum?
Yes, so long as each is a pardonable offense (federal, criminal, not impeached). So long as those are satisfied, the President can pardon who he/she wants when they want. About the only thing that’s up in the air is whether she/he can pardon themselves.
That whether a POTUS can pardon himself is “up in the air” shows that American law schools have produced many generations of moral morons.
BTW, the moral lepers who have argued for He, Trump in court that a POTUS cannot be indicted, let alone convicted, of any crime including murder on 5th Avenue, would probably say that the reason a POTUS cannot pardon himself is obvious.
–TP
That whether a POTUS can pardon himself is “up in the air” shows that American law schools have produced many generations of moral morons.
BTW, the moral lepers who have argued for He, Trump in court that a POTUS cannot be indicted, let alone convicted, of any crime including murder on 5th Avenue, would probably say that the reason a POTUS cannot pardon himself is obvious.
–TP
Tony, IANAL, but am a former state legislature staffer, and the first rule is that no one knows what the law actually means until a court rules on it. No President has tried to pardon themselves. So while the notion that they can do so seems silly, we won’t know until the SCOTUS says it’s silly. From my perspective, most of the interesting parts of the law are cases where some lawyer suggested there was a different way to interpret the words.
Tony, IANAL, but am a former state legislature staffer, and the first rule is that no one knows what the law actually means until a court rules on it. No President has tried to pardon themselves. So while the notion that they can do so seems silly, we won’t know until the SCOTUS says it’s silly. From my perspective, most of the interesting parts of the law are cases where some lawyer suggested there was a different way to interpret the words.
Given how absolute and unquestionable/unreverseable the Pardon power is, is there even a mechanism to get the question of whether or not a President can pardon himself in front of a court? And who would have standing to raise the issue?
Given how absolute and unquestionable/unreverseable the Pardon power is, is there even a mechanism to get the question of whether or not a President can pardon himself in front of a court? And who would have standing to raise the issue?
can anyone with pardon authority pardon themselves?
like, is it even part of the concept of “pardon” ?
can anyone with pardon authority pardon themselves?
like, is it even part of the concept of “pardon” ?
Forgive me, Michael, but I think you merely reinforce my point: what’s silly is that American jurisprudence even allows the possibility that a POTUS can pardon himself.
Also, I repeat: how could a POTUS even find himself simultaneously convicted of a federal crime AND still holding the pardon power?
I do of course remember that when “the sonofabitch pardoned the sonofabitch”, it was for “any crimes he may have committed or participated in while in office”. If President Biden did that for He, Trump — with the same scope; not for tax fraud before 2016 for instance — I’d be pissed off. But He, Trump pardoning himself on His way out the door would be a very different kettle of fish.
–TP
Forgive me, Michael, but I think you merely reinforce my point: what’s silly is that American jurisprudence even allows the possibility that a POTUS can pardon himself.
Also, I repeat: how could a POTUS even find himself simultaneously convicted of a federal crime AND still holding the pardon power?
I do of course remember that when “the sonofabitch pardoned the sonofabitch”, it was for “any crimes he may have committed or participated in while in office”. If President Biden did that for He, Trump — with the same scope; not for tax fraud before 2016 for instance — I’d be pissed off. But He, Trump pardoning himself on His way out the door would be a very different kettle of fish.
–TP
Also, I repeat: how could a POTUS even find himself simultaneously convicted of a federal crime AND still holding the pardon power?
Because conviction of a crime doesn’t remove someone (including POTUS) from Federal office. That takes impeachment and action by the Senate. When you have a Senate populated by those who put party above either country or oath of office, as we manifestly do now, well….
Also, I repeat: how could a POTUS even find himself simultaneously convicted of a federal crime AND still holding the pardon power?
Because conviction of a crime doesn’t remove someone (including POTUS) from Federal office. That takes impeachment and action by the Senate. When you have a Senate populated by those who put party above either country or oath of office, as we manifestly do now, well….
wj,
I do know that criminal conviction does not remove the convict from office. So, we must postulate a POTUS, specifically, who is indicted for a crime, tried for it, and convicted of it — without having been impeached and removed first. The Framers may, possibly, have considered such a scenario (not having the benefit of the OLC opinion about indicting presidents) and figured that their posterity (us) would never be nuts enough to even entertain the silly, silly notion that a POTUS can pardon himself and get away with it.
–TP
wj,
I do know that criminal conviction does not remove the convict from office. So, we must postulate a POTUS, specifically, who is indicted for a crime, tried for it, and convicted of it — without having been impeached and removed first. The Framers may, possibly, have considered such a scenario (not having the benefit of the OLC opinion about indicting presidents) and figured that their posterity (us) would never be nuts enough to even entertain the silly, silly notion that a POTUS can pardon himself and get away with it.
–TP
Nowhere in the Constitution does it foretell America’s last words: “I thought it was a hoax.”
https://digbysblog.net/2020/07/learning-the-hard-way/
We was Framed.
Nowhere in the Constitution does it foretell America’s last words: “I thought it was a hoax.”
https://digbysblog.net/2020/07/learning-the-hard-way/
We was Framed.
And we are reminded once again that there’s really no cure for stupid.
And we are reminded once again that there’s really no cure for stupid.
The Covid-19 virus will be wiped out by a fully nuclear World War III started by America’s conservative movement in the person of Donald Trump.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/08/asia/china-us-nuclear-treaty-intl-hnk/index.html
You’ll be able to shelter at home and watch yourself be incinerated on ZOOM.
Nowhere in the Constitution does it say taxes may be levied to finance the incineration of the human race, so we got off easy.
The Covid-19 virus will be wiped out by a fully nuclear World War III started by America’s conservative movement in the person of Donald Trump.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/08/asia/china-us-nuclear-treaty-intl-hnk/index.html
You’ll be able to shelter at home and watch yourself be incinerated on ZOOM.
Nowhere in the Constitution does it say taxes may be levied to finance the incineration of the human race, so we got off easy.
I thought it was a hoax.
No doubt somebody they trusted told them it was a hoax.
So, maybe stupid, but also misled.
Having responsible people in positions of leadership actually matters. The lack of it actually does harm people, up to and including the loss of their lives.
I thought it was a hoax.
No doubt somebody they trusted told them it was a hoax.
So, maybe stupid, but also misled.
Having responsible people in positions of leadership actually matters. The lack of it actually does harm people, up to and including the loss of their lives.
Strictly speaking the Constitution does not require pardons to be post factum just that they be for ‘Offences against the United States’.
Depending on how one defines the latter, a lot of pardons could be illegitimate. Is the breaking of any law of the US an offence against the US?
And it seems that there have been pardons for people not yet convicted (although at least the crimes had already happened).
So, preemptive pardons are not, from a purely literalist POV, automatically excluded.
Strictly speaking the Constitution does not require pardons to be post factum just that they be for ‘Offences against the United States’.
Depending on how one defines the latter, a lot of pardons could be illegitimate. Is the breaking of any law of the US an offence against the US?
And it seems that there have been pardons for people not yet convicted (although at least the crimes had already happened).
So, preemptive pardons are not, from a purely literalist POV, automatically excluded.
Is the breaking of any law of the US [i.e. a Federal law, not a state law] an offence against the US?
In a word, yes.
And it seems that there have been pardons for people not yet convicted.
Nixon being the most prominent example.
Is the breaking of any law of the US [i.e. a Federal law, not a state law] an offence against the US?
In a word, yes.
And it seems that there have been pardons for people not yet convicted.
Nixon being the most prominent example.
An interesting point about pardons is what happened with Chile(or Argentina?) and the “amnesty” for crimes committed during the time when a RW junta was in power.
You’d think that “murdering someone” would be covered, but since the murderer never owned up to murdering the victim, it could be prosecuted as a “kidnapping” which was still ongoing. Yet somehow they didn’t want to own up to killing thousands of innocents…or maybe they lost track.
Perjury should be treated the same way, up until the point when they tell the truth. AND there’s civil liability (False Claims Act) that (AFAIK) pardons don’t affect.
An interesting point about pardons is what happened with Chile(or Argentina?) and the “amnesty” for crimes committed during the time when a RW junta was in power.
You’d think that “murdering someone” would be covered, but since the murderer never owned up to murdering the victim, it could be prosecuted as a “kidnapping” which was still ongoing. Yet somehow they didn’t want to own up to killing thousands of innocents…or maybe they lost track.
Perjury should be treated the same way, up until the point when they tell the truth. AND there’s civil liability (False Claims Act) that (AFAIK) pardons don’t affect.
Perjury should be treated the same way, up until the point when they tell the truth.
I would think, however, that you’d have to ask the question again. So that the purjury was committed (not just admitted to) subsequent to the pardon.
Good thing you can’t pardon someone for crimes not yet committed. Or Trump would be all over that in a heartbeat. Especially for himself.
Perjury should be treated the same way, up until the point when they tell the truth.
I would think, however, that you’d have to ask the question again. So that the purjury was committed (not just admitted to) subsequent to the pardon.
Good thing you can’t pardon someone for crimes not yet committed. Or Trump would be all over that in a heartbeat. Especially for himself.
Is there actually any definitive (i.e. SCOTUS) decision excluding preemptive pardons?
The question of self-pardons at least has not yet been put to the judicial test (Nixon thought about but did not act on it).
I believe there have been claims of pre-signed pardons existing in the past (and in other countries, namely France, this was even formalized, although the practice has long been abandoned because it amounted to a get-out-of-jail-free card)
Is there actually any definitive (i.e. SCOTUS) decision excluding preemptive pardons?
The question of self-pardons at least has not yet been put to the judicial test (Nixon thought about but did not act on it).
I believe there have been claims of pre-signed pardons existing in the past (and in other countries, namely France, this was even formalized, although the practice has long been abandoned because it amounted to a get-out-of-jail-free card)
Florida is reporting 15K new cases today. Jesus…
Florida is reporting 15K new cases today. Jesus…
all that gasping is the sound of Freedom™
all that gasping is the sound of Freedom™
The Governor of Florida may have succeeded, not really single-handedly but it may get seen that way, in turning Florida blue. Simply by recklessly opening up and subjecting the huge retirement population to the pandemic. It’s one thing to put “those people” at risk. But put them at risk and they are going to take major exception.
The Governor of Florida may have succeeded, not really single-handedly but it may get seen that way, in turning Florida blue. Simply by recklessly opening up and subjecting the huge retirement population to the pandemic. It’s one thing to put “those people” at risk. But put them at risk and they are going to take major exception.
The Governor of Florida may have succeeded, not really single-handedly but it may get seen that way, in turning Florida blue
in more than one way
The Governor of Florida may have succeeded, not really single-handedly but it may get seen that way, in turning Florida blue
in more than one way
This may be the biggest fiasco of an interview I have seen. DeVos is a DeSgrace:
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/07/12/betsy-devos-schools-reopening-plan-sot-sotu-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/this-week-in-politics/
This may be the biggest fiasco of an interview I have seen. DeVos is a DeSgrace:
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/07/12/betsy-devos-schools-reopening-plan-sot-sotu-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/this-week-in-politics/
An interesting read on “cancel culture.”
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cancel-culture-harpers-jk-rowling-scam_n_5f0887b4c5b67a80bc06c95e
An interesting read on “cancel culture.”
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cancel-culture-harpers-jk-rowling-scam_n_5f0887b4c5b67a80bc06c95e
nous, is there anyone who actually cares about children and their education (as opposed to ideology) who has anything but contempt for DeVos? If the woman has any redeeming features, she has been a massive success at concealing them.
nous, is there anyone who actually cares about children and their education (as opposed to ideology) who has anything but contempt for DeVos? If the woman has any redeeming features, she has been a massive success at concealing them.
American will not survive the family DeVos, who are homicidal psychopaths employed by unalloyed EVIL.
This method of Death is too slow to kill off the entire crypto-Christian conservative movement in time to save America:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/07/12/floriduh-continued/
American will not survive the family DeVos, who are homicidal psychopaths employed by unalloyed EVIL.
This method of Death is too slow to kill off the entire crypto-Christian conservative movement in time to save America:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/07/12/floriduh-continued/
Homeschoolers and people who put their children into private religious schools are strong supporters of DeVos. Many of them do care about their own*( children and about education and spend a great deal of their time and resources in pursuit of that goal. And they may be socially isolated enough to dodge this bullet.
And it is a bullet they desperately need to dodge, because the anti-vaxx and anti-science Prager U crap runs deep in their worldview.
*They care about other people’s children, too, but only in the abstract way that insists that what other children really need is a perfect nuclear family with strong religious values and that anything less than this is godless folly.
Homeschoolers and people who put their children into private religious schools are strong supporters of DeVos. Many of them do care about their own*( children and about education and spend a great deal of their time and resources in pursuit of that goal. And they may be socially isolated enough to dodge this bullet.
And it is a bullet they desperately need to dodge, because the anti-vaxx and anti-science Prager U crap runs deep in their worldview.
*They care about other people’s children, too, but only in the abstract way that insists that what other children really need is a perfect nuclear family with strong religious values and that anything less than this is godless folly.
Tucker Carlson said he has never met a white supremacist …. stage cough, cough, ahem while unmasked … he didn’t like.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/07/11/tucker-carlson-writer-blake-neff-resigns-amid-allegations-racism/5419820002/
Remember, this is the head racist, sewage-mouthed writer on the highest rated political TV talk show in something that was once called America, and our country is now under threat of savage violence by the racist, malign, pandemic-spreading, infected conservative movement.
That says it better than Black Lives Matter can.
Statues stand mute and are merely representational. Not harmless by any means, but they don’t stride down off their granite and marble bases and host a f*cking television show every evening and spew hate against many billions of people the world over, including our neighbors.
Why not go after the rancid living tens of millions of rank racist filth in this country the statues were erected to represent? And this time, before the next epoch of monument-building Jim Crow conservative haters build yet another series of statues, probably in the likenesses of the Devos’ family, to peer down their noses at us and insinuate that we are not true Americans.
Tear THEM down while they are living.
What, in Tucker Carlson’s case, is someone going to whine about the rights of those whose TV shows are canceled?
Were Jerry Van Dyke’s constitutional rights violated because “My Mother The Car” was a victim of cancel culture?
Covid-19 must work faster and become much more deadly among the unmasked conservative republican filth in this country if America expects to be ready for the thermonuclear world war their God Trump has in the works for us.
These ilk love nuclear holocaust more than our nuclear families.
Their God is pure destructive murderous EVIL.
Why aren’t decent Christians in this country, of all denominations, rising up against this anti-American Satanic and murderous rot in their conservative midst?
We get bupkus, we get crickets from them.
Tucker Carlson said he has never met a white supremacist …. stage cough, cough, ahem while unmasked … he didn’t like.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/07/11/tucker-carlson-writer-blake-neff-resigns-amid-allegations-racism/5419820002/
Remember, this is the head racist, sewage-mouthed writer on the highest rated political TV talk show in something that was once called America, and our country is now under threat of savage violence by the racist, malign, pandemic-spreading, infected conservative movement.
That says it better than Black Lives Matter can.
Statues stand mute and are merely representational. Not harmless by any means, but they don’t stride down off their granite and marble bases and host a f*cking television show every evening and spew hate against many billions of people the world over, including our neighbors.
Why not go after the rancid living tens of millions of rank racist filth in this country the statues were erected to represent? And this time, before the next epoch of monument-building Jim Crow conservative haters build yet another series of statues, probably in the likenesses of the Devos’ family, to peer down their noses at us and insinuate that we are not true Americans.
Tear THEM down while they are living.
What, in Tucker Carlson’s case, is someone going to whine about the rights of those whose TV shows are canceled?
Were Jerry Van Dyke’s constitutional rights violated because “My Mother The Car” was a victim of cancel culture?
Covid-19 must work faster and become much more deadly among the unmasked conservative republican filth in this country if America expects to be ready for the thermonuclear world war their God Trump has in the works for us.
These ilk love nuclear holocaust more than our nuclear families.
Their God is pure destructive murderous EVIL.
Why aren’t decent Christians in this country, of all denominations, rising up against this anti-American Satanic and murderous rot in their conservative midst?
We get bupkus, we get crickets from them.
I suspect, when things finally shake out, there will be a jump in the number of homeschoolers. The longer schools are closed, the bigger it will likely be.
Currently, homeschoolers are about 59% white. About 51% homeschool because religious instruction is important to them. About 67% because moral instruction is important. And about 34% due to concerns about school environments.
I suspect, when things finally shake out, there will be a jump in the number of homeschoolers. The longer schools are closed, the bigger it will likely be.
Currently, homeschoolers are about 59% white. About 51% homeschool because religious instruction is important to them. About 67% because moral instruction is important. And about 34% due to concerns about school environments.
Currently, homeschoolers are about 59% white. About 51% homeschool because religious instruction is important to them. About 67% because moral instruction is important. And about 34% due to concerns about school environments.
“Religious instruction” often meaning that they don’t want their children taught evolution or sex ed in school.
“Moral instruction” often meaning that they don’t want their children to be given any positive information about LGBTQ issues.
“Concerns about school environment” often meaning that they don’t want their kids sharing a school with whatever group fills their personal prejudice bingo card.
I’ve got friends that have homeschooled for good reasons and done a good job of it. I’ve had students who were homeschooled who were good students whose parents had done right by them. They are, though, in my experience, a minority.
Currently, homeschoolers are about 59% white. About 51% homeschool because religious instruction is important to them. About 67% because moral instruction is important. And about 34% due to concerns about school environments.
“Religious instruction” often meaning that they don’t want their children taught evolution or sex ed in school.
“Moral instruction” often meaning that they don’t want their children to be given any positive information about LGBTQ issues.
“Concerns about school environment” often meaning that they don’t want their kids sharing a school with whatever group fills their personal prejudice bingo card.
I’ve got friends that have homeschooled for good reasons and done a good job of it. I’ve had students who were homeschooled who were good students whose parents had done right by them. They are, though, in my experience, a minority.
“Concerns about school environment” often meaning that they don’t want their kids sharing a school with whatever group fills their personal prejudice bingo card.
And more than a few of them object to their kids being bullied, physically, and sexually assaulted.
“Concerns about school environment” often meaning that they don’t want their kids sharing a school with whatever group fills their personal prejudice bingo card.
And more than a few of them object to their kids being bullied, physically, and sexually assaulted.
It would be interesting, I think, to look at the number of kids homeschooled to avoid abuse that was occurring at school and compare it to the number of kids that were being homeschooled and abused at home.
Not that we could ever get reliable numbers.
It would be interesting, I think, to look at the number of kids homeschooled to avoid abuse that was occurring at school and compare it to the number of kids that were being homeschooled and abused at home.
Not that we could ever get reliable numbers.
It would be interesting, I think, to look at the number of kids homeschooled to avoid abuse that was occurring at school and compare it to the number of kids that were being homeschooled and abused at home.
This is a site that is supportive of homeschooling.
I know from friends and extended family that some people do incredibly well having been homeschooled (although the success stories are more about people having been homeschooled at certain times, not the whole way through K-12).
But, I’ve seen court cases of the saddest abuse possible with homeschooling having been the cover.
My own philosophy is that, in general, kids need a far wider group of adults than their parents to thrive, and they certainly need some peer interaction. Traditional school situations provide this for most children. I certainly wouldn’t quibble with a parent whose child was not doing well in a school environment.
That said, most of the homeschooled adults I know (and surprisingly, I know several) don’t have great relationships with their parents.
It would be interesting, I think, to look at the number of kids homeschooled to avoid abuse that was occurring at school and compare it to the number of kids that were being homeschooled and abused at home.
This is a site that is supportive of homeschooling.
I know from friends and extended family that some people do incredibly well having been homeschooled (although the success stories are more about people having been homeschooled at certain times, not the whole way through K-12).
But, I’ve seen court cases of the saddest abuse possible with homeschooling having been the cover.
My own philosophy is that, in general, kids need a far wider group of adults than their parents to thrive, and they certainly need some peer interaction. Traditional school situations provide this for most children. I certainly wouldn’t quibble with a parent whose child was not doing well in a school environment.
That said, most of the homeschooled adults I know (and surprisingly, I know several) don’t have great relationships with their parents.
I suspect that homeschooling that is characterized by students isolated at home with their parents is unrepresentative of most homeschooling today. Homeschoolers can be members of homeschool co-ops where students can interact not only with their parents but with other adults and other kids of various ages. In some states, students can take classes at pubic schools without enrolling in the school. And they can also take community college courses. There’s a growing number of choices for students and their parents to craft the kind of education they want.
I suspect that homeschooling that is characterized by students isolated at home with their parents is unrepresentative of most homeschooling today. Homeschoolers can be members of homeschool co-ops where students can interact not only with their parents but with other adults and other kids of various ages. In some states, students can take classes at pubic schools without enrolling in the school. And they can also take community college courses. There’s a growing number of choices for students and their parents to craft the kind of education they want.
sapient – I’ve spent some time on that site in the past and it’s a good site.
I think we agree, for the most part, about homeschooling.
My friends who have done well with it were both atheist families who did it either because they were part of the deschooling movement and wanted to give their children a more personalized education, or did it because their children were not fitting in well and were academically adrift as a result.
My brother’s family, all homeschooled, seem to get along just fine, but I would not be at all surprised to find that one of the other families in their little homeschool community in town had a secret history of abuse and trauma. There’s far too much of that in the evangelical community that has been swept under the rug. I remember seeing the Bill Gothard material floating around. It’s not a healthy worldview.
And this stuff happens at missionary schools as well. I’m still sick about that.
sapient – I’ve spent some time on that site in the past and it’s a good site.
I think we agree, for the most part, about homeschooling.
My friends who have done well with it were both atheist families who did it either because they were part of the deschooling movement and wanted to give their children a more personalized education, or did it because their children were not fitting in well and were academically adrift as a result.
My brother’s family, all homeschooled, seem to get along just fine, but I would not be at all surprised to find that one of the other families in their little homeschool community in town had a secret history of abuse and trauma. There’s far too much of that in the evangelical community that has been swept under the rug. I remember seeing the Bill Gothard material floating around. It’s not a healthy worldview.
And this stuff happens at missionary schools as well. I’m still sick about that.
In some states, students can take classes at pubic schools without enrolling in the school. And they can also take community college courses.
That’s great (maybe, depending on how it affects funding of public schools), but it’s not homeschooling.
I suspect that homeschooling that is characterized by students isolated at home with their parents is unrepresentative of most homeschooling today.
Who knows? But maybe. I have known parents who demanded that their kids participate in a menu of public programs that they didn’t want to provide themselves (and yet they called themselves homeschoolers). That’s cafeteria public schooling, not home schooling. And it’s all fine, perhaps, if people recognize that it costs money, and they pay for it.
In some states, students can take classes at pubic schools without enrolling in the school. And they can also take community college courses.
That’s great (maybe, depending on how it affects funding of public schools), but it’s not homeschooling.
I suspect that homeschooling that is characterized by students isolated at home with their parents is unrepresentative of most homeschooling today.
Who knows? But maybe. I have known parents who demanded that their kids participate in a menu of public programs that they didn’t want to provide themselves (and yet they called themselves homeschoolers). That’s cafeteria public schooling, not home schooling. And it’s all fine, perhaps, if people recognize that it costs money, and they pay for it.
I think we agree, for the most part, about homeschooling.
Yes.
I think we agree, for the most part, about homeschooling.
Yes.
Actually, I’ll crack open a post about homeschooling and if I have a chance, write about the situation in Japan in the comments.
Actually, I’ll crack open a post about homeschooling and if I have a chance, write about the situation in Japan in the comments.
John McWhorter, Atlantic contributor and linquist, responds with some salient points to DiAngelo’s thesis:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/dehumanizing-condescension-white-fragility/614146/
Petards abound, he finds, for the hoisting.
John McWhorter, Atlantic contributor and linquist, responds with some salient points to DiAngelo’s thesis:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/dehumanizing-condescension-white-fragility/614146/
Petards abound, he finds, for the hoisting.
McWhorter writes
“The sad truth is that anyone falling under the sway of this blinkered, self-satisfied, punitive stunt of a primer has been taught, by a well-intentioned but tragically misguided pastor, how to be racist in a whole new way.”
Which, unfortunately, is characteristic of a significant segment of the far left. NOT, I hasten to add, of all or even most liberals. But those who are the loudest about racism often seem to start and end with discussing guilt, and how to accept it. Actual specifics about correcting the problems the result from racism just don’t seem to be of interest.
Again, most liberals, including everyone here, isn’t in that category. But they are numerous enough and loud enough that they skew the conversation in unhelpful directions. While alienating those who otherwise could be helping improve things.
McWhorter writes
“The sad truth is that anyone falling under the sway of this blinkered, self-satisfied, punitive stunt of a primer has been taught, by a well-intentioned but tragically misguided pastor, how to be racist in a whole new way.”
Which, unfortunately, is characteristic of a significant segment of the far left. NOT, I hasten to add, of all or even most liberals. But those who are the loudest about racism often seem to start and end with discussing guilt, and how to accept it. Actual specifics about correcting the problems the result from racism just don’t seem to be of interest.
Again, most liberals, including everyone here, isn’t in that category. But they are numerous enough and loud enough that they skew the conversation in unhelpful directions. While alienating those who otherwise could be helping improve things.
Voter fraud! Definitely a thing:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/kansas-republican-charged-with-three-felonies-in-voter-fraud-investigation/2020/07/14/7d0fe8c2-c629-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html
Naturally the perp claims the charges are “political.” Against a Republican in Kansas. Yeah, sure.
Voter fraud! Definitely a thing:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/kansas-republican-charged-with-three-felonies-in-voter-fraud-investigation/2020/07/14/7d0fe8c2-c629-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html
Naturally the perp claims the charges are “political.” Against a Republican in Kansas. Yeah, sure.