by liberal japonicus
I usually don’t do this, but I feel I need to throw everyone a bone. From here
The same goes for the three companies affiliated with Monty Bennett. Ashford Hospitality Trust, where Bennett is chairman and a large shareholder, was able to treat each individual hotel property as a separate business when filing for PPP. They applied for 117 of the loans, getting $38 million so far, the most disclosed by any company. Loans for another $38 million were still being processed.
“We plan to keep all funds received under the PPP, which were provided as a result of the application process and other specific requirements established for our industry by Congress,” the Bennett-run companies said April 25 in a statement.
We are doomed.
If it was one strapping young buck being able to buy a T-bone, it would be a national outrage.
If it was one strapping young buck being able to buy a T-bone, it would be a national outrage.
That should be by Priest, not sure what happened.
That should be by Priest, not sure what happened.
Now Priest. It would only be (labeled) a national outrage if the “strapping young buck” was black. Otherwise it would, at most, be “youthful hijinks” — especially with Kavanaugh hearing the case.
Now Priest. It would only be (labeled) a national outrage if the “strapping young buck” was black. Otherwise it would, at most, be “youthful hijinks” — especially with Kavanaugh hearing the case.
Fintan O’Toole:
Fintan O’Toole:
Um, wj….from the Urban Dictionary:
From a 1976 speech by Ronald Reagan, who complained of “strapping young bucks” using public assistance to buy T-Bone steaks, the phrase is shorthand for “undeserving and lazy black people living off hardworking white taxpayers instead of getting a job.” Many commentators have noted that the phrase originated from the auction block. Now used ironically by liberal commentators to identify racist dog-whistles in conservative argument.
My bold.
Um, wj….from the Urban Dictionary:
From a 1976 speech by Ronald Reagan, who complained of “strapping young bucks” using public assistance to buy T-Bone steaks, the phrase is shorthand for “undeserving and lazy black people living off hardworking white taxpayers instead of getting a job.” Many commentators have noted that the phrase originated from the auction block. Now used ironically by liberal commentators to identify racist dog-whistles in conservative argument.
My bold.
Some of us have ears too limited to pick up the more subtle dog whistles.
But I do seem to have heard the phrase applied to persons lacking a permanent suntan. Disparaging of athleticism, rather than race.
Some of us have ears too limited to pick up the more subtle dog whistles.
But I do seem to have heard the phrase applied to persons lacking a permanent suntan. Disparaging of athleticism, rather than race.
It’ll be bonuses all around at Ashford Hospitality Trust, for their bold leadership and business acumen during these uncharted times.
It’ll be bonuses all around at Ashford Hospitality Trust, for their bold leadership and business acumen during these uncharted times.
Who knows when we’ll be traveling again, but if anyone would like to boycott, here’s the list. Lower down there might even be some I could afford. In a pinch.
Who knows when we’ll be traveling again, but if anyone would like to boycott, here’s the list. Lower down there might even be some I could afford. In a pinch.
wj,
But I do seem to have heard the phrase applied to persons lacking a permanent suntan. Disparaging of athleticism, rather than race.
You grew up in a different place/time than I did.
There’s nothing subtle about the phrase – especially to those whose ears it’s intended for.
wj,
But I do seem to have heard the phrase applied to persons lacking a permanent suntan. Disparaging of athleticism, rather than race.
You grew up in a different place/time than I did.
There’s nothing subtle about the phrase – especially to those whose ears it’s intended for.
It (all of it, the corporate theft, the casual racist pig shit from the conservative pantheon) will never stop of its own volition.
Heck, as with Janie, we can’t even afford to boycott the fuckers.
I’m boycotting all of Trump’s hotels and golf resorts too … via unaffordability .. take THAT, ya bastards, plus, for good measure, I don’t care for scoring protocols on the links where I’m already six strokes down on the first tee compliments of the course champion lout in Chief.
I’ve been boycotting Tiffany’s, Christie’s Auction House, and various elite top end restaurants all my life and it’s not made a dent.
There’s a reason all the wrong neighborhoods were burned to the ground after J Edgar shot Martin Luther King in the head …. the Bel Air estates didn’t permit underfunded public transportation through the security gates.
It’s not likely that fat black welfare queens driving brand spanking new Cadillacs are going to pull into a Residence Inn parking with strapping young bucks in the back seat, walk up to check-in, be apprised of the nightly rate, and ask for a wake-up call, because the job they were forced to get emptying the bedpans of Covid-infected white people at the nursing home to justify even a pittance of healthcare insurance under Medicaid doesn’t quite buy a night on the town.
Look, among the trump crime syndicate and it’s 40% base among the so-called “American” people, Kenyan witch doctor without an American birth certificate was just their politically correct way of saying that strapping young buck was coming to seduce my wife AND my girlfriend.
To be as bipartisan as possible, my rabbit ears can hear Joe Biden in budget conferences with Thurmond, Stennis, Talmadge, Helms, and Eastland decades ago yucking it up over throwing (ya notice how the verb “throw” is always in operation when it’s money going to the social safety net, but the word “reward” is used by republicans when money heads into the bank accounts of their campaign contributors) a few extra bucks at the strapping young bucks in their states, but to Joe’s credit, back then you had to humor those racist reptiles to make some progress(ivism).
We don’t anymore, so why are we?
It (all of it, the corporate theft, the casual racist pig shit from the conservative pantheon) will never stop of its own volition.
Heck, as with Janie, we can’t even afford to boycott the fuckers.
I’m boycotting all of Trump’s hotels and golf resorts too … via unaffordability .. take THAT, ya bastards, plus, for good measure, I don’t care for scoring protocols on the links where I’m already six strokes down on the first tee compliments of the course champion lout in Chief.
I’ve been boycotting Tiffany’s, Christie’s Auction House, and various elite top end restaurants all my life and it’s not made a dent.
There’s a reason all the wrong neighborhoods were burned to the ground after J Edgar shot Martin Luther King in the head …. the Bel Air estates didn’t permit underfunded public transportation through the security gates.
It’s not likely that fat black welfare queens driving brand spanking new Cadillacs are going to pull into a Residence Inn parking with strapping young bucks in the back seat, walk up to check-in, be apprised of the nightly rate, and ask for a wake-up call, because the job they were forced to get emptying the bedpans of Covid-infected white people at the nursing home to justify even a pittance of healthcare insurance under Medicaid doesn’t quite buy a night on the town.
Look, among the trump crime syndicate and it’s 40% base among the so-called “American” people, Kenyan witch doctor without an American birth certificate was just their politically correct way of saying that strapping young buck was coming to seduce my wife AND my girlfriend.
To be as bipartisan as possible, my rabbit ears can hear Joe Biden in budget conferences with Thurmond, Stennis, Talmadge, Helms, and Eastland decades ago yucking it up over throwing (ya notice how the verb “throw” is always in operation when it’s money going to the social safety net, but the word “reward” is used by republicans when money heads into the bank accounts of their campaign contributors) a few extra bucks at the strapping young bucks in their states, but to Joe’s credit, back then you had to humor those racist reptiles to make some progress(ivism).
We don’t anymore, so why are we?
back then you had to humor those racist reptiles to make some progress(ivism).
We don’t anymore, so why are we?
It appears to me that the main difference today is that the reptiles no longer think they have to compromise at all — “my way or the highway” seems to be their position of choice. It takes something like a pandemic to get Moscow Mitch’s caucus to force him to give at all. So all that’s left is the California solution: to vote them into irrelevance, until they return to humanity.
back then you had to humor those racist reptiles to make some progress(ivism).
We don’t anymore, so why are we?
It appears to me that the main difference today is that the reptiles no longer think they have to compromise at all — “my way or the highway” seems to be their position of choice. It takes something like a pandemic to get Moscow Mitch’s caucus to force him to give at all. So all that’s left is the California solution: to vote them into irrelevance, until they return to humanity.
Speaking of the CA solution a la wj, I am a bit concerned that we are going to lose Katie Porter as the Rep from our part of the OC what with the universities all doing remote learning. Would be a shame, because Porter has been remarkably effective. I’d take her as a replacement for Feinstein any day.
Bigger picture, this also has me wondering about the effect of campuses temporarily going non-residential on the overall elections. Will all that gerrymandering be affected by a reduction in the concentration of D voters in college towns, and will the dispersion of all those D voters purple any of the districts that had been engineered to lean R?
One more bit of uncertainty in the election picture.
Speaking of the CA solution a la wj, I am a bit concerned that we are going to lose Katie Porter as the Rep from our part of the OC what with the universities all doing remote learning. Would be a shame, because Porter has been remarkably effective. I’d take her as a replacement for Feinstein any day.
Bigger picture, this also has me wondering about the effect of campuses temporarily going non-residential on the overall elections. Will all that gerrymandering be affected by a reduction in the concentration of D voters in college towns, and will the dispersion of all those D voters purple any of the districts that had been engineered to lean R?
One more bit of uncertainty in the election picture.
My guess would be that
a) college towns mostly won’t turn red, or even purple. The non-students there tend to be moderately liberal as well. At most, if a moderate Republican contrived to get nominated, he might have a shot.
b) other places may find themselves rather more purple than expected. Specifically, those cases where gerrymandering created narrow majorities, in order to maximize total legislators elected.
On balance, Democrats should come out ahead, provided they exert themselves to get those students reregistered at home.
My guess would be that
a) college towns mostly won’t turn red, or even purple. The non-students there tend to be moderately liberal as well. At most, if a moderate Republican contrived to get nominated, he might have a shot.
b) other places may find themselves rather more purple than expected. Specifically, those cases where gerrymandering created narrow majorities, in order to maximize total legislators elected.
On balance, Democrats should come out ahead, provided they exert themselves to get those students reregistered at home.
After a worldwide Blue Screen of Death, reboot, and everything is back online, a lot of things are going to be different. I suspect voter turnout is going to be lower, maybe quite a bit, in November even if the risk of virus infection is at a minimum and/or there’s voting by mail.
After a worldwide Blue Screen of Death, reboot, and everything is back online, a lot of things are going to be different. I suspect voter turnout is going to be lower, maybe quite a bit, in November even if the risk of virus infection is at a minimum and/or there’s voting by mail.
I refer to anywhere Republicans and the conservative movement have stolen power as Death Row:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8259795/Were-Gods-waiting-room-Florida-Governor-Ron-DeSantis-joke-seniors-sparks-outrage.html
How conservatives think about California breaking away (some of them hoping it’s by earthquake along the San Andreas):
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/calexit-may-be-a-long-way-off-but-balkanization-wont-be/
‘Course, then there are these guys hoping for Red Dawn.
https://texassecede.com/
I refer to anywhere Republicans and the conservative movement have stolen power as Death Row:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8259795/Were-Gods-waiting-room-Florida-Governor-Ron-DeSantis-joke-seniors-sparks-outrage.html
How conservatives think about California breaking away (some of them hoping it’s by earthquake along the San Andreas):
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/calexit-may-be-a-long-way-off-but-balkanization-wont-be/
‘Course, then there are these guys hoping for Red Dawn.
https://texassecede.com/
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/kelli-ward-arizona-republicans-reopen-covid-protests
I’m willing to don scrubs and perform a reverse kip prefrontal lobotomy on the good Doctor so she stops eating her own brain in public.
I’m gonna skip the whole hand-washing and sterilization rigamarole so beloved by elite liberal regulators while I give her the once-over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibfBDKiw1ac
She’s an Osteopath. They believe in treating the whole person, except the part that is sick.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine
Unlike Dr. Phil, who gained his medical prestige as a teenager by strapping his little sisters’ feet into stirrups in his parents’ basement and asking them whether they preferred to call him Dr. Howard, or Dr. Fine, or Dr. Howard as he warned them that they may feel a little pressure.
Unbeknownst to the Libertarian Reason Magazine, the dead hand of credentialization in the professions has already been sharply reduced in America.
Before, you could grow up to be anything in America.
Now, even the requirement that you must “grow up” first has been removed like one of Rush Limbaugh’s highly convenient anal cysts.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/kelli-ward-arizona-republicans-reopen-covid-protests
I’m willing to don scrubs and perform a reverse kip prefrontal lobotomy on the good Doctor so she stops eating her own brain in public.
I’m gonna skip the whole hand-washing and sterilization rigamarole so beloved by elite liberal regulators while I give her the once-over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibfBDKiw1ac
She’s an Osteopath. They believe in treating the whole person, except the part that is sick.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine
Unlike Dr. Phil, who gained his medical prestige as a teenager by strapping his little sisters’ feet into stirrups in his parents’ basement and asking them whether they preferred to call him Dr. Howard, or Dr. Fine, or Dr. Howard as he warned them that they may feel a little pressure.
Unbeknownst to the Libertarian Reason Magazine, the dead hand of credentialization in the professions has already been sharply reduced in America.
Before, you could grow up to be anything in America.
Now, even the requirement that you must “grow up” first has been removed like one of Rush Limbaugh’s highly convenient anal cysts.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/three-weeks-of-trump-coronavirus-briefings-under-a-microscope-2-hours-spent-on-attacks-45-minutes-on-self-congratulation-and-412-minutes-of-condolences-for-victims-2020-04-27?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Trump’s White House counseled him that four and a half minutes of condolences needed to be reduced or eliminated (the debate is ferocious in the highest places) because it was taxing their supply side empathy, the filth.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/three-weeks-of-trump-coronavirus-briefings-under-a-microscope-2-hours-spent-on-attacks-45-minutes-on-self-congratulation-and-412-minutes-of-condolences-for-victims-2020-04-27?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Trump’s White House counseled him that four and a half minutes of condolences needed to be reduced or eliminated (the debate is ferocious in the highest places) because it was taxing their supply side empathy, the filth.
Let red state inhabitants drown and die next time the levees break:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/27/1940756/-Florida-Kansas-and-Missouri-bailed-out-ANNUALLY-by-Blue-America-now-whining-about-returning-favor
Do not steal my fucking money.
Let red state inhabitants drown and die next time the levees break:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/27/1940756/-Florida-Kansas-and-Missouri-bailed-out-ANNUALLY-by-Blue-America-now-whining-about-returning-favor
Do not steal my fucking money.
I think Ashford Hospitality Trust is, or was recently on the verge of declaring bankruptcy, and now perhaps saved by socialism.
Too bad about the municipalities, cities, and states where their properties residing going under, because in Republican America, Socialism is only good enough for the private sector.
I think Ashford Hospitality Trust is, or was recently on the verge of declaring bankruptcy, and now perhaps saved by socialism.
Too bad about the municipalities, cities, and states where their properties residing going under, because in Republican America, Socialism is only good enough for the private sector.
TBH, I think we’re pretty much a banana republic at this point. The feds will throw some bones to the proles, but the resources of the nation are primarily being directed to people who are already really freaking rich.
Or, you know, ‘persons’, who may or may not be people. But who are the property of natural human people. Which is to say, some natural human people, and not too many of them, and only the right kinds.
It’s kind of Mitt Romney’s America, if Mitt was not the personally nice guy that he is, but instead was a vulgar asshole.
I’m looking forward to Trump’s exit, but IMO a lot of the rot is structural at this point, and pretty deep.
Money is speech, etc. That ain’t gonna change until the guys that said it is are dead and gone.
We – the US – lack the kind of humanistic culture that would be a counter to that. The kind of culture that would respond to a statement like “money is speech” with a loud and ubiquitous “WTF are you talking about?!?”.
We don’t really have significant common traditions that go back before the beginnings of industrialization and capitalism. Particular regions and demographics within the country do, but as a nation, we don’t.
For “money is speech” feel free to substitute any of the various mantras that we hear every day, that basically amount to the idea that our purpose as a nation is to facilitate the opportunity for a fairly small number of people to get really freaking rich.
We’re all free to get really freaking rich, of course, but in practice not many will. And because we’re all “free to get really freaking rich”, it’s on you if you don’t.
I think we’ve gotten to the point where the most callous and brutal among us are driving the bus. And I have no idea whatsoever how to change that. Votes alone won’t do it, because it’s a matter of national character. A matter of culture, and shared values. And I’m not sure we have it.
TBH, I think we’re pretty much a banana republic at this point. The feds will throw some bones to the proles, but the resources of the nation are primarily being directed to people who are already really freaking rich.
Or, you know, ‘persons’, who may or may not be people. But who are the property of natural human people. Which is to say, some natural human people, and not too many of them, and only the right kinds.
It’s kind of Mitt Romney’s America, if Mitt was not the personally nice guy that he is, but instead was a vulgar asshole.
I’m looking forward to Trump’s exit, but IMO a lot of the rot is structural at this point, and pretty deep.
Money is speech, etc. That ain’t gonna change until the guys that said it is are dead and gone.
We – the US – lack the kind of humanistic culture that would be a counter to that. The kind of culture that would respond to a statement like “money is speech” with a loud and ubiquitous “WTF are you talking about?!?”.
We don’t really have significant common traditions that go back before the beginnings of industrialization and capitalism. Particular regions and demographics within the country do, but as a nation, we don’t.
For “money is speech” feel free to substitute any of the various mantras that we hear every day, that basically amount to the idea that our purpose as a nation is to facilitate the opportunity for a fairly small number of people to get really freaking rich.
We’re all free to get really freaking rich, of course, but in practice not many will. And because we’re all “free to get really freaking rich”, it’s on you if you don’t.
I think we’ve gotten to the point where the most callous and brutal among us are driving the bus. And I have no idea whatsoever how to change that. Votes alone won’t do it, because it’s a matter of national character. A matter of culture, and shared values. And I’m not sure we have it.
IMO a lot of the rot is structural at this point, and pretty deep.
I agree that it’s structural (and getting more so as fast as McConnell et al can do it). But I’m not sure it’s all that deep. “Deep” as in solidly locked into everyone’s worldviews.
My guess is that some crisis, and quite possibly this one, is going to end up with a lot of that structure drastically revised. To howls of outrage, of course. But you can only keep the rubes voting subsidies for the rich for so long. Drop people in a situation where they can see what’s needed, and then insist that they can’t have it, only because the rich need to be richer? Quite possibly won’t be pretty (even if it doesn’t go entirely along the lines Thullen regularly suggests).
IMO a lot of the rot is structural at this point, and pretty deep.
I agree that it’s structural (and getting more so as fast as McConnell et al can do it). But I’m not sure it’s all that deep. “Deep” as in solidly locked into everyone’s worldviews.
My guess is that some crisis, and quite possibly this one, is going to end up with a lot of that structure drastically revised. To howls of outrage, of course. But you can only keep the rubes voting subsidies for the rich for so long. Drop people in a situation where they can see what’s needed, and then insist that they can’t have it, only because the rich need to be richer? Quite possibly won’t be pretty (even if it doesn’t go entirely along the lines Thullen regularly suggests).
Our work here is done. And bon chance to one and all.
Personally, I consider this a positive development. The further we get this guy away from anybody’s health and safety, the better.
“Deep” as in solidly locked into everyone’s worldviews.
Doesn’t need to be everyone’s worldviews. Just the folks that count.
FWIW, I am profoundly pessimistic about the future for this country. We have a lot of money and a great big military, so I don’t think anything really catastrophic is on the horizon. Just… profound mediocrity, as regards anything other than money and guns, and a lifetime of hazard for anyone who isn’t wealthy.
Our work here is done. And bon chance to one and all.
Personally, I consider this a positive development. The further we get this guy away from anybody’s health and safety, the better.
“Deep” as in solidly locked into everyone’s worldviews.
Doesn’t need to be everyone’s worldviews. Just the folks that count.
FWIW, I am profoundly pessimistic about the future for this country. We have a lot of money and a great big military, so I don’t think anything really catastrophic is on the horizon. Just… profound mediocrity, as regards anything other than money and guns, and a lifetime of hazard for anyone who isn’t wealthy.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/27/1940793/–Reopen-NC-organizer-tested-positive-for-COVID-19-says-quarantine-a-violation-of-civil-rights
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/27/1940793/–Reopen-NC-organizer-tested-positive-for-COVID-19-says-quarantine-a-violation-of-civil-rights
But I do seem to have heard the phrase applied to persons lacking a permanent suntan. Disparaging of athleticism, rather than race.
I have too, wj, but when I hear it in a vacuum, or applied to African-American men, I hear (but don’t respond, thank you very much).
So, russell, I strongly disagree with a lot of what you said in your 6:28.
The United States has a hugely complicated, but shared, cultural tradition, and a lot of it is based on the legacy of slavery, and immigration. Lots of music, lots of art, lots of performance art, and a huge body of literature. TV is great here (also bad, but that’s what culture is). I love our country, and I love our people. We’re not perfect, and we’re going through a dark time.
I don’t want to compare our country to other countries, which also have great cultural traditions. I’m not going to say that we’re “the best” – there are some foreign cultural traditions that I appreciate, and some that I’m not knowledgeable enough to enjoy, but when I do culture, I do American culture for the most part. (Yes, I enjoy Italian opera, and French (especially early 20th c) classical music, and of course German classical music, and So Much Food! And so many other things: Japanese fabrics, Chinese pu ehr tea, Irish holy wells.
There’s so much beauty in humanity. Including in our shared humanity, here in the United States. What’s most beautiful is our diversity, and that’s what’s so heartbreaking about what the Trump administration is summoning and whistling for. Obama was the opposite. Let’s remember that his presidency was less than four years ago.
And, yes, the same actors (Republicans) who brought us Trump brought us the things you mention (such as Citizens United) that are our dark side (just as all cultures have their dark sides). You are generalizing way too much.
But I do seem to have heard the phrase applied to persons lacking a permanent suntan. Disparaging of athleticism, rather than race.
I have too, wj, but when I hear it in a vacuum, or applied to African-American men, I hear (but don’t respond, thank you very much).
So, russell, I strongly disagree with a lot of what you said in your 6:28.
The United States has a hugely complicated, but shared, cultural tradition, and a lot of it is based on the legacy of slavery, and immigration. Lots of music, lots of art, lots of performance art, and a huge body of literature. TV is great here (also bad, but that’s what culture is). I love our country, and I love our people. We’re not perfect, and we’re going through a dark time.
I don’t want to compare our country to other countries, which also have great cultural traditions. I’m not going to say that we’re “the best” – there are some foreign cultural traditions that I appreciate, and some that I’m not knowledgeable enough to enjoy, but when I do culture, I do American culture for the most part. (Yes, I enjoy Italian opera, and French (especially early 20th c) classical music, and of course German classical music, and So Much Food! And so many other things: Japanese fabrics, Chinese pu ehr tea, Irish holy wells.
There’s so much beauty in humanity. Including in our shared humanity, here in the United States. What’s most beautiful is our diversity, and that’s what’s so heartbreaking about what the Trump administration is summoning and whistling for. Obama was the opposite. Let’s remember that his presidency was less than four years ago.
And, yes, the same actors (Republicans) who brought us Trump brought us the things you mention (such as Citizens United) that are our dark side (just as all cultures have their dark sides). You are generalizing way too much.
wj, what I meant in my previous comment was that I hear, but don’t respond, to the dog whistle. The way it was written seemed like some kind of message to you. That was not my intention.
wj, what I meant in my previous comment was that I hear, but don’t respond, to the dog whistle. The way it was written seemed like some kind of message to you. That was not my intention.
What’s most beautiful is our diversity, and that’s what’s so heartbreaking about what the Trump administration is summoning and whistling for. Obama was the opposite. Let’s remember that his presidency was less than four years ago.
Being a determined optimist, I see the current administration as the second phase of our usual 3-steps-forward-2-steps-back**. Irritating as hell, I agree. But I expect to see another 3 steps forward sooner rather than later. Maybe more.
** Actually, I thought Obama represented more like 5 steps forward. That’s because I expected it to be another couple of rounds of forward and back before we reached the point of seeing a non-white President. But Trump is, to be kind, basically a cry of despair from those who are losing the cultural evolution and can no longer kid themselves otherwise. If they’d thought they had a prayer of winning, they’d have nominated almost any other Republican candidate in 2016.
What’s most beautiful is our diversity, and that’s what’s so heartbreaking about what the Trump administration is summoning and whistling for. Obama was the opposite. Let’s remember that his presidency was less than four years ago.
Being a determined optimist, I see the current administration as the second phase of our usual 3-steps-forward-2-steps-back**. Irritating as hell, I agree. But I expect to see another 3 steps forward sooner rather than later. Maybe more.
** Actually, I thought Obama represented more like 5 steps forward. That’s because I expected it to be another couple of rounds of forward and back before we reached the point of seeing a non-white President. But Trump is, to be kind, basically a cry of despair from those who are losing the cultural evolution and can no longer kid themselves otherwise. If they’d thought they had a prayer of winning, they’d have nominated almost any other Republican candidate in 2016.
Thanks, wj. I really appreciate your optimism, and am trying to share it.
Thanks, wj. I really appreciate your optimism, and am trying to share it.
sapient,
Lots of music, lots of art, lots of performance art, and a huge body of literature.
May I point out something of which I am sure you are aware?
A massively disproportionate share of all that is of African-American and Jewish origin. (Not to mention that southern cuisine is also African in origin.)
American culture, in the sense of arts and literature, is anything but white and Christian, though it’s fair to note that another prominent group is white southerners. Faulkner is not to be sneezed at.
sapient,
Lots of music, lots of art, lots of performance art, and a huge body of literature.
May I point out something of which I am sure you are aware?
A massively disproportionate share of all that is of African-American and Jewish origin. (Not to mention that southern cuisine is also African in origin.)
American culture, in the sense of arts and literature, is anything but white and Christian, though it’s fair to note that another prominent group is white southerners. Faulkner is not to be sneezed at.
Yep, byomtov. That’s exactly what I meant by “The United States has a hugely complicated, but shared, cultural tradition, and a lot of it is based on the legacy of slavery, and immigration.”
Maybe I don’t write clearly enough, for which I apologize. But, yes, I agree with you.
White people (including me) enjoy, participate, benefit, and contribute to the cultural life that has been made by all of us, but of course, uniquely, by our African-American and immigrant neighbors and ancestors.
I’m a bit ruffled and perplexed at why you’re not thinking of that as “American”. I don’t think of American = white people.
Yep, byomtov. That’s exactly what I meant by “The United States has a hugely complicated, but shared, cultural tradition, and a lot of it is based on the legacy of slavery, and immigration.”
Maybe I don’t write clearly enough, for which I apologize. But, yes, I agree with you.
White people (including me) enjoy, participate, benefit, and contribute to the cultural life that has been made by all of us, but of course, uniquely, by our African-American and immigrant neighbors and ancestors.
I’m a bit ruffled and perplexed at why you’re not thinking of that as “American”. I don’t think of American = white people.
I don’t want to compare our country to other countries
I’m not necessarily comparing our country to other countries. And I’m not talking about culture in the sense of food or music.
I started down the path of a much longer comment, but I’ll try to boil it down:
We’ve lost the idea of the common good, as something politically, economically, and socially desirable. It is freaking gone. If you disagree, show me where you see it.
That is the culture I am talking about.
I don’t want to compare our country to other countries
I’m not necessarily comparing our country to other countries. And I’m not talking about culture in the sense of food or music.
I started down the path of a much longer comment, but I’ll try to boil it down:
We’ve lost the idea of the common good, as something politically, economically, and socially desirable. It is freaking gone. If you disagree, show me where you see it.
That is the culture I am talking about.
Sapient,
To be clear, I do think of it as American.
I am saddened that there are those who don’t. It’s interesting to me that the average African-American’s ancestors arrived in North America, on average, well before the ancestors of the typical white American.
Sapient,
To be clear, I do think of it as American.
I am saddened that there are those who don’t. It’s interesting to me that the average African-American’s ancestors arrived in North America, on average, well before the ancestors of the typical white American.
We’ve lost the idea of the common good, as something politically, economically, and socially desirable. It is freaking gone. If you disagree, show me where you see it.
The fact that everyone I know is socially distancing, and that when we go to the grocery store we wear masks, and that a lot of people are making masks for other people, and that we’re getting grab and go from restaurants whose folks we don’t want to see go to shit. Virginia voted for Democrats in all of its legislature and executive branches in 2018. We’re working hard for that to happen in 2020. A lot of horrible bullshit actors who have a lot of money, and a lot of extra money and help from Russia and who knows where else, have distorted our politics.
Yes, there are some sad, sorry people who believe a lot of lies. That’s true in every freaking country here, in Europe, in Asia, and in Africa. It manifested itself horribly in WWII, but it’s certainly here and elsewhere in spades now. The other continents of the world aren’t immune.
You are absolutely full of shit if you think we are “exceptional” in our lack of cultural refinement. Look the hell around the world. Yes, we’re in an incredibly horrible place, thanks to historically horrible Republicans (and their payoffs from elsewhere), but also largely to the “lefty” failure of solidarity with reasonable Democratic leaders. When, russell, was the last time you moaned about the “left behind White People”? It was during Obama’s administration. “Let’s just criticize Democrats until they can’t be elected!” Get a clue. Woody Guthrie had it right. You also usually do. This evening, you do not.
We’ve lost the idea of the common good, as something politically, economically, and socially desirable. It is freaking gone. If you disagree, show me where you see it.
The fact that everyone I know is socially distancing, and that when we go to the grocery store we wear masks, and that a lot of people are making masks for other people, and that we’re getting grab and go from restaurants whose folks we don’t want to see go to shit. Virginia voted for Democrats in all of its legislature and executive branches in 2018. We’re working hard for that to happen in 2020. A lot of horrible bullshit actors who have a lot of money, and a lot of extra money and help from Russia and who knows where else, have distorted our politics.
Yes, there are some sad, sorry people who believe a lot of lies. That’s true in every freaking country here, in Europe, in Asia, and in Africa. It manifested itself horribly in WWII, but it’s certainly here and elsewhere in spades now. The other continents of the world aren’t immune.
You are absolutely full of shit if you think we are “exceptional” in our lack of cultural refinement. Look the hell around the world. Yes, we’re in an incredibly horrible place, thanks to historically horrible Republicans (and their payoffs from elsewhere), but also largely to the “lefty” failure of solidarity with reasonable Democratic leaders. When, russell, was the last time you moaned about the “left behind White People”? It was during Obama’s administration. “Let’s just criticize Democrats until they can’t be elected!” Get a clue. Woody Guthrie had it right. You also usually do. This evening, you do not.
To be clear, I do think of it as American
Thanks, byomtov. I respect you a lot. Russell too. I’m clearly having a rage fit.
You all are great to forbear.
To be clear, I do think of it as American
Thanks, byomtov. I respect you a lot. Russell too. I’m clearly having a rage fit.
You all are great to forbear.
You are absolutely full of shit if you think we are “exceptional” in our lack of cultural refinement
Lots of places are kleptocratic train wrecks. Sometimes we are, sometimes we aren’t.
Right now we kinda are.
You are absolutely full of shit if you think we are “exceptional” in our lack of cultural refinement
Lots of places are kleptocratic train wrecks. Sometimes we are, sometimes we aren’t.
Right now we kinda are.
You all are great to forbear.
But actually, you’re not so great if you’re not going to buy into an ethic that we can be “great” in the way that we define it (which includes what we all value), and sell it.
You know what we had to fight the Nazis? Our flag – the US flag. Yeah, I get it – we’re too cool for that. if so, get another plan.
You asked me, russell, to show my work. What’s your plan? Massachusetts separatists? Fuck Stacie Abrams?
You all are great to forbear.
But actually, you’re not so great if you’re not going to buy into an ethic that we can be “great” in the way that we define it (which includes what we all value), and sell it.
You know what we had to fight the Nazis? Our flag – the US flag. Yeah, I get it – we’re too cool for that. if so, get another plan.
You asked me, russell, to show my work. What’s your plan? Massachusetts separatists? Fuck Stacie Abrams?
russell 10:40: weak.
russell 10:40: weak.
Remember when folks here said [paraphrasing] “of course I’d be all in if there were an existential crisis! I’d be all in for my country!”
Just kidding, right?
Thought so. Now it’s: oh, my country doesn’t really have identifiable cultural values, so I guess I just have to stand up for particular people I know. Kind of like a sweeter form of the mob.
Remember when folks here said [paraphrasing] “of course I’d be all in if there were an existential crisis! I’d be all in for my country!”
Just kidding, right?
Thought so. Now it’s: oh, my country doesn’t really have identifiable cultural values, so I guess I just have to stand up for particular people I know. Kind of like a sweeter form of the mob.
sapient, just FYI, I’m actually reining in my optimism. Chicken, I guess.
If I’m really being optimistic, I picture McConnell losing his own Senate seat as part of the tidal wave in November. By a wide margin. Unpopular as he is in Kentucky, it’s quite possible. And if the suit to rule Obamacare unconstitutional wins before then, taking Kentuckians’ beloved kynect with it, he’s toast.
sapient, just FYI, I’m actually reining in my optimism. Chicken, I guess.
If I’m really being optimistic, I picture McConnell losing his own Senate seat as part of the tidal wave in November. By a wide margin. Unpopular as he is in Kentucky, it’s quite possible. And if the suit to rule Obamacare unconstitutional wins before then, taking Kentuckians’ beloved kynect with it, he’s toast.
fistbump, wj. And knocks on wood.
fistbump, wj. And knocks on wood.
You know what we had to fight the Nazis?
“We” didn’t fight the Nazis. Our parents and grandparents did.
You can only dine out on past achievements for so long.
Look, if it does something for you to rage away at me, have at it. But IMO national governance in this country has largely been captured. by rich greedy mf’s who manipulate it to become even richer greedy mf’s. The institutional guards against that kind of crap appear to have been insufficient. They’ve been subverted.
Turning stuff like that around requires something deeper than constitutional rules. It requires a broad consensus that we want something different. That gets to shared values about who we are, how we ought to relate to each other. That’s culture. And the basic cultural values – not music and food and whatever, I’m talking about ethos – to counter that is not in evidence, as far as I can see.
It’s present, I’m just not seeing a critical mass.
I’m gonna do everything I always have and likely always will do as far as political and social engagement. I’m just making an observation.
What I described just above and in my last few posts is what I see.
I’m glad you and wj are more optimistic. I’m not.
You know what we had to fight the Nazis?
“We” didn’t fight the Nazis. Our parents and grandparents did.
You can only dine out on past achievements for so long.
Look, if it does something for you to rage away at me, have at it. But IMO national governance in this country has largely been captured. by rich greedy mf’s who manipulate it to become even richer greedy mf’s. The institutional guards against that kind of crap appear to have been insufficient. They’ve been subverted.
Turning stuff like that around requires something deeper than constitutional rules. It requires a broad consensus that we want something different. That gets to shared values about who we are, how we ought to relate to each other. That’s culture. And the basic cultural values – not music and food and whatever, I’m talking about ethos – to counter that is not in evidence, as far as I can see.
It’s present, I’m just not seeing a critical mass.
I’m gonna do everything I always have and likely always will do as far as political and social engagement. I’m just making an observation.
What I described just above and in my last few posts is what I see.
I’m glad you and wj are more optimistic. I’m not.
Batshit, Betty. Batshit:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-slash-funding-bat-human-study-linked-conspiracy-theory-coronavirus
Batshit, Betty. Batshit:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-slash-funding-bat-human-study-linked-conspiracy-theory-coronavirus
The lessons of history seem quite clear. Industrious and strong societies push the boundaries of power and inevitably decline. All too often this is accelerated by granting wealth and its accompanying political power to an elite few, who unsurprisingly, go on to feather their own nest, reinforce their power and undermine those very attributes that made their society enviable.
I may be mistaken, but I get the idea that russell is just making that observation about us. We may be well down the road to ruin.
A couple essays I find touch on this matter:
here and here.
wrs, y’all. Stay safe.
The lessons of history seem quite clear. Industrious and strong societies push the boundaries of power and inevitably decline. All too often this is accelerated by granting wealth and its accompanying political power to an elite few, who unsurprisingly, go on to feather their own nest, reinforce their power and undermine those very attributes that made their society enviable.
I may be mistaken, but I get the idea that russell is just making that observation about us. We may be well down the road to ruin.
A couple essays I find touch on this matter:
here and here.
wrs, y’all. Stay safe.
Thanks, russell, as usual. As a footnote, I appreciate your spotlighting the fuzzy use of the word “we” — one of my hobbyhorses.
sapient — I don’t know how to fix the mess, and by being so nasty to people who are probably as close as you have to a group of natural allies (I mean, given the general political leanings here), you’ve proven that you don’t know how to fix the mess either.
“Elect moderate Democrats and never criticize them” is no more practical an answer to our problems than “Abracadabra!” It presumes the conclusion, begs the question, any number of philosophical cliches you want to name.
There’s no magic formula. People and politics are complex and always, always, always messy. If your answer to our problems requires the elimination of messiness, then your answer is not an answer.
Just as there’s no magic formula, there’s no magic figurehead who will come along with all the answers and lead us out of this mess. We might get out of it anyhow, the long, hard, slow way, but I’m with russell: I’m not optimistic, though I haven’t given up, either.
Thanks, russell, as usual. As a footnote, I appreciate your spotlighting the fuzzy use of the word “we” — one of my hobbyhorses.
sapient — I don’t know how to fix the mess, and by being so nasty to people who are probably as close as you have to a group of natural allies (I mean, given the general political leanings here), you’ve proven that you don’t know how to fix the mess either.
“Elect moderate Democrats and never criticize them” is no more practical an answer to our problems than “Abracadabra!” It presumes the conclusion, begs the question, any number of philosophical cliches you want to name.
There’s no magic formula. People and politics are complex and always, always, always messy. If your answer to our problems requires the elimination of messiness, then your answer is not an answer.
Just as there’s no magic formula, there’s no magic figurehead who will come along with all the answers and lead us out of this mess. We might get out of it anyhow, the long, hard, slow way, but I’m with russell: I’m not optimistic, though I haven’t given up, either.
Didn’t see bobbyp’s — could have just said “wrs and wbps.” 🙂
Didn’t see bobbyp’s — could have just said “wrs and wbps.” 🙂
I think we need to start with a kleptocracy-plutocracy-oligarchy (and maybe -theocracy or -kakistocracy) Venn diagram before we can tackle this.
I think we need to start with a kleptocracy-plutocracy-oligarchy (and maybe -theocracy or -kakistocracy) Venn diagram before we can tackle this.
What russell said, what bobbyp said, what Janie said. In spades.
Let’s hope we’re all wrong, and we make, in the wonderful words of Grace Paley, Enormous Changes at the Last Minute. But holding one’s breath, whatever other steps one takes, would be inadvisable.
What russell said, what bobbyp said, what Janie said. In spades.
Let’s hope we’re all wrong, and we make, in the wonderful words of Grace Paley, Enormous Changes at the Last Minute. But holding one’s breath, whatever other steps one takes, would be inadvisable.
And by the way, this:
“Let’s just criticize Democrats until they can’t be elected!”
is utter bullshit. It’s bullshit that Democrats can’t get elected (see the last Congressional election) and it’s bullshit that by expressing our own range of political opinions, “we” (here at ObWi, or Democrats in general, or whatever) are making any appreciable difference in whether Democrats can get elected in the sense that you mean.
Newt, Rush, Murdoch, Fox, Mitch, Vlad, the Mercers, the Kochs, Breitbart, Alex Jones, swift-boating, etc., ad nauseam — those are the major forces making it harder to elect Democrats.
And by the way, this:
“Let’s just criticize Democrats until they can’t be elected!”
is utter bullshit. It’s bullshit that Democrats can’t get elected (see the last Congressional election) and it’s bullshit that by expressing our own range of political opinions, “we” (here at ObWi, or Democrats in general, or whatever) are making any appreciable difference in whether Democrats can get elected in the sense that you mean.
Newt, Rush, Murdoch, Fox, Mitch, Vlad, the Mercers, the Kochs, Breitbart, Alex Jones, swift-boating, etc., ad nauseam — those are the major forces making it harder to elect Democrats.
Look, if it does something for you to rage away at me, have at it. But IMO national governance in this country has largely been captured. by rich greedy mf’s who manipulate it to become even richer greedy mf’s. The institutional guards against that kind of crap appear to have been insufficient. They’ve been subverted.
And, yes, I admitted to a rage fit. Sorry – yes, sometimes it helps to vent.
Yes, we all know that national governance has been captured, and by whom. That’s who we know is our enemy, and we have to turn it around. And no, you’re right – “we” didn’t fight the Nazis, our parents did. “We” let them take our country (which, you are correct, was ripe for the taking). We have to fight them now. And we can’t do so with violence, because we’ll lose. It will be a long, sustained effort of finding a message and standing behind it with disciplined solidarity.
Yes we can, not no, we can’t. Not let’s try blue state secession. Who does that help? Who would that harm?
We may, in fact, be down the road to ruin. Embracing that as an inevitability, or failing to recognize our enormous strengths, doesn’t seem like much of a plan.
I know that we’re on the same page regarding the election, but could we please at least try to hope that there’s something worth fighting for? bobbyp cites history. Yes, history. Things change. Who would have predicted in 1945 the European Union? Who would have predicted in 2012 its near demise?
Look, if it does something for you to rage away at me, have at it. But IMO national governance in this country has largely been captured. by rich greedy mf’s who manipulate it to become even richer greedy mf’s. The institutional guards against that kind of crap appear to have been insufficient. They’ve been subverted.
And, yes, I admitted to a rage fit. Sorry – yes, sometimes it helps to vent.
Yes, we all know that national governance has been captured, and by whom. That’s who we know is our enemy, and we have to turn it around. And no, you’re right – “we” didn’t fight the Nazis, our parents did. “We” let them take our country (which, you are correct, was ripe for the taking). We have to fight them now. And we can’t do so with violence, because we’ll lose. It will be a long, sustained effort of finding a message and standing behind it with disciplined solidarity.
Yes we can, not no, we can’t. Not let’s try blue state secession. Who does that help? Who would that harm?
We may, in fact, be down the road to ruin. Embracing that as an inevitability, or failing to recognize our enormous strengths, doesn’t seem like much of a plan.
I know that we’re on the same page regarding the election, but could we please at least try to hope that there’s something worth fighting for? bobbyp cites history. Yes, history. Things change. Who would have predicted in 1945 the European Union? Who would have predicted in 2012 its near demise?
national governance in this country has largely been captured. by rich greedy mf’s who manipulate it to become even richer greedy mf’s. The institutional guards against that kind of crap appear to have been insufficient. They’ve been subverted.
Is it really that it has been captured? Or that those who had it captured all along lost the concept of “enough”?**
To my mind, they once understood that, if they didn’t share at least some of the wealth (and kept open the possibility for some social/economic mobility), they could lose it all. But they have lost that understanding. And thus may indeed lose it all. For which they will have nobody to blame but themselves.
** Then again, maybe it’s just that they lost the concept of competing with each other for status on the basis of anything other than raw dollars.
national governance in this country has largely been captured. by rich greedy mf’s who manipulate it to become even richer greedy mf’s. The institutional guards against that kind of crap appear to have been insufficient. They’ve been subverted.
Is it really that it has been captured? Or that those who had it captured all along lost the concept of “enough”?**
To my mind, they once understood that, if they didn’t share at least some of the wealth (and kept open the possibility for some social/economic mobility), they could lose it all. But they have lost that understanding. And thus may indeed lose it all. For which they will have nobody to blame but themselves.
** Then again, maybe it’s just that they lost the concept of competing with each other for status on the basis of anything other than raw dollars.
Newt, Rush, Murdoch, Fox, Mitch, Vlad, the Mercers, the Kochs, Breitbart, Alex Jones, swift-boating, etc., ad nauseam — those are the major forces making it harder to elect Democrats.
Absolutely! But because they represent a minority, they depend on our acquiescence, which is exactly how they managed to get Trump in the White House.
Newt, Rush, Murdoch, Fox, Mitch, Vlad, the Mercers, the Kochs, Breitbart, Alex Jones, swift-boating, etc., ad nauseam — those are the major forces making it harder to elect Democrats.
Absolutely! But because they represent a minority, they depend on our acquiescence, which is exactly how they managed to get Trump in the White House.
they depend on our acquiescence,
Don’t include me in your “our” nonsense. The fact that they’re richer, greedier, more ruthless, more vicious, and generally more powerful than I am doesn’t mean that I have “acquiesced.”
Closer to home, because I’m not following your flag and jumping on your bandwagon doesn’t mean that I have “acquiesced.”
You do not speak for me, so don’t trouble to say “we.”
they depend on our acquiescence,
Don’t include me in your “our” nonsense. The fact that they’re richer, greedier, more ruthless, more vicious, and generally more powerful than I am doesn’t mean that I have “acquiesced.”
Closer to home, because I’m not following your flag and jumping on your bandwagon doesn’t mean that I have “acquiesced.”
You do not speak for me, so don’t trouble to say “we.”
It has been captured in the past, but in the past the greedy mfs lived in a more local, more territorial world, and it took more work to keep everyone above the survival line. When the stakes are higher and the poor are more immediate, the rich mfs had to exist more fully in the world they shaped. The observance of protocol kept the weak rules functioning.
Global information networks and cheap travel in a relatively open world make it easy for the mfs to opt into privilege and out of responsibility, and screens mediate suffering and help suppress empathy.
I’d say it’s a tossup whether we can keep it from falling apart and find some new protocol that restores some form of acceptable balance.
And while I understand the horror of violence, I also don’t believe that being forced to resort to violence automatically defines a moral defeat and signals some metaphysical corruption from which there is no recovery. There are tipping points at either side of the scales, and points after which violence is unavoidable, and points before which where violence, properly directed, could prevent greater loss.
But the worlds in which that violence is manifested are multilateral worlds, and our choices and control are limited. Once sides are drawn you only get to choose for your own side.
Violence is always a tragedy, but it’s not always a loss, and sometimes a better path can be found from the heart of that tragedy.
Too bad we never know if that’s the case until we get there.
It has been captured in the past, but in the past the greedy mfs lived in a more local, more territorial world, and it took more work to keep everyone above the survival line. When the stakes are higher and the poor are more immediate, the rich mfs had to exist more fully in the world they shaped. The observance of protocol kept the weak rules functioning.
Global information networks and cheap travel in a relatively open world make it easy for the mfs to opt into privilege and out of responsibility, and screens mediate suffering and help suppress empathy.
I’d say it’s a tossup whether we can keep it from falling apart and find some new protocol that restores some form of acceptable balance.
And while I understand the horror of violence, I also don’t believe that being forced to resort to violence automatically defines a moral defeat and signals some metaphysical corruption from which there is no recovery. There are tipping points at either side of the scales, and points after which violence is unavoidable, and points before which where violence, properly directed, could prevent greater loss.
But the worlds in which that violence is manifested are multilateral worlds, and our choices and control are limited. Once sides are drawn you only get to choose for your own side.
Violence is always a tragedy, but it’s not always a loss, and sometimes a better path can be found from the heart of that tragedy.
Too bad we never know if that’s the case until we get there.
And while I understand the horror of violence, I also don’t believe that being forced to resort to violence automatically defines a moral defeat and signals some metaphysical corruption from which there is no recovery.
I don’t disagree. I don’t see how we could win a violent war, not unless we could take back the government. Even then, it wouldn’t be possible without loyalty.
And while I understand the horror of violence, I also don’t believe that being forced to resort to violence automatically defines a moral defeat and signals some metaphysical corruption from which there is no recovery.
I don’t disagree. I don’t see how we could win a violent war, not unless we could take back the government. Even then, it wouldn’t be possible without loyalty.
loyalty
Past evidence would suggest that your idea of “loyalty” means me giving up my voice.
No thanks.
loyalty
Past evidence would suggest that your idea of “loyalty” means me giving up my voice.
No thanks.
If widespread violence does come to the US, I’m not sure what form it will take. Will it even look like a war? Will it be urban unrest? Will it be something like the cartel violence of our neighbors to the south? Will it be a public/private kleptocracy enforcing corporate will like the Dakota Access confrontations? Will the central government collapse after proving ineffective at controlling identitarian warbands? Will it be business as usual in the big urban centers but a recalcitrant reign of terror in white supremacist enclaves?
Some combination?
It likely won’t be blue vs. gray, but there are so many other ugly options that are well within our grasp.
If widespread violence does come to the US, I’m not sure what form it will take. Will it even look like a war? Will it be urban unrest? Will it be something like the cartel violence of our neighbors to the south? Will it be a public/private kleptocracy enforcing corporate will like the Dakota Access confrontations? Will the central government collapse after proving ineffective at controlling identitarian warbands? Will it be business as usual in the big urban centers but a recalcitrant reign of terror in white supremacist enclaves?
Some combination?
It likely won’t be blue vs. gray, but there are so many other ugly options that are well within our grasp.
It likely won’t be blue vs. gray, but there are so many other ugly options that are well within our grasp.
Which is why it would not turn out well. I suggest we try to move forward with our shared beliefs.
Past evidence would suggest that your idea of “loyalty” means me giving up my voice.
I don’t recall you ever having been silenced. And yet …
It likely won’t be blue vs. gray, but there are so many other ugly options that are well within our grasp.
Which is why it would not turn out well. I suggest we try to move forward with our shared beliefs.
Past evidence would suggest that your idea of “loyalty” means me giving up my voice.
I don’t recall you ever having been silenced. And yet …
Is it really that it has been captured? Or that those who had it captured all along lost the concept of “enough”?
The extent of the capture could be debated, but there has never been a concept of “enough” in a social system that institutionalizes greed as a virtue.
To my mind, they once understood that, if they didn’t share at least some of the wealth (and kept open the possibility for some social/economic mobility), they could lose it all.
They never understood this. Roosevelt saved their unrestrained selfish asses. They were kicking and screaming the whole way, and they never forgave him (Herbert Hoover, 1932 to death which see). The institutional roadblocks put in place by the New Deal (cf. unions, higher taxes, the “heavy hand” of federal regulation) kept these assholes from ACQUIRING such vast wealth to begin with.
Something like those constraints is what we need to return to.
Is it really that it has been captured? Or that those who had it captured all along lost the concept of “enough”?
The extent of the capture could be debated, but there has never been a concept of “enough” in a social system that institutionalizes greed as a virtue.
To my mind, they once understood that, if they didn’t share at least some of the wealth (and kept open the possibility for some social/economic mobility), they could lose it all.
They never understood this. Roosevelt saved their unrestrained selfish asses. They were kicking and screaming the whole way, and they never forgave him (Herbert Hoover, 1932 to death which see). The institutional roadblocks put in place by the New Deal (cf. unions, higher taxes, the “heavy hand” of federal regulation) kept these assholes from ACQUIRING such vast wealth to begin with.
Something like those constraints is what we need to return to.
what nous said.
what nous said.
Once again, what bobbyp said.
You could add a lot of the history of the human race, for that matter. The wealthy and powerful living within sight of the poor and powerless has rarely inspired much of an inspiration to share.
Once again, what bobbyp said.
You could add a lot of the history of the human race, for that matter. The wealthy and powerful living within sight of the poor and powerless has rarely inspired much of an inspiration to share.
I don’t recall you ever having been silenced
No, but that’s what you consistently, implicitly propose every time you say vicious things about anyone who criticizes Democrats, and urge us all to get in line behind some Great Leader and some unitary message or other.
I don’t recall you ever having been silenced
No, but that’s what you consistently, implicitly propose every time you say vicious things about anyone who criticizes Democrats, and urge us all to get in line behind some Great Leader and some unitary message or other.
and urge us all to get in line behind some Great Leader and some unitary message or other.
I don’t believe in a “Great Leader”. I am not the one who seeks a perfect leader. I know that all of our politicians are flawed, although many do very good work. We do [or should] have a unitary message. It can be said a lot of different ways, among them “Stronger Together.” And I’m not vicious, which means “deliberately cruel or violent.” I’ve pointed out that although I deeply admire many people here, russell for example, sometimes their rhetoric is disturbing, or at the very least unhelpful. For example, the whole secessionist conversation is, to me, disturbing. I don’t ask to silence it, but feel confident in my opinion that it’s counterproductive.
Obama was a good president. He was not someone to be followed blindly in all things. He made some mistakes, but he was given far less credit than he deserved. I was lukewarm to Hillary Clinton when she decided to run in 2016. I was aware that many people didn’t like her. As soon as she became the nominee, it was going to be either her or Trump. Suddenly, her appeal became a lot more obvious.
Just as with friends, I don’t consider anyone perfect (including myself), but when they need my support, I do my best to support them. It isn’t difficult. And sure, it’s a political blog where we talk about policy and public values, where people sometimes try on arguments for size, and sometimes become angry and heated. That’s fine (with me). But the chips have been down, and the stakes incredibly high, which should have become obvious to everyone by the year 2000, if not decades before. It’s really tragic that our unitary message can’t be: rally round the Democrat in order to beat the Republican. (I understand that the ham sandwich argument is working for everyone this year, and I appreciate it. Wish it had been happening all along.)
By the way, there are still drones. I had to look that up, because we haven’t talked about it in years.
and urge us all to get in line behind some Great Leader and some unitary message or other.
I don’t believe in a “Great Leader”. I am not the one who seeks a perfect leader. I know that all of our politicians are flawed, although many do very good work. We do [or should] have a unitary message. It can be said a lot of different ways, among them “Stronger Together.” And I’m not vicious, which means “deliberately cruel or violent.” I’ve pointed out that although I deeply admire many people here, russell for example, sometimes their rhetoric is disturbing, or at the very least unhelpful. For example, the whole secessionist conversation is, to me, disturbing. I don’t ask to silence it, but feel confident in my opinion that it’s counterproductive.
Obama was a good president. He was not someone to be followed blindly in all things. He made some mistakes, but he was given far less credit than he deserved. I was lukewarm to Hillary Clinton when she decided to run in 2016. I was aware that many people didn’t like her. As soon as she became the nominee, it was going to be either her or Trump. Suddenly, her appeal became a lot more obvious.
Just as with friends, I don’t consider anyone perfect (including myself), but when they need my support, I do my best to support them. It isn’t difficult. And sure, it’s a political blog where we talk about policy and public values, where people sometimes try on arguments for size, and sometimes become angry and heated. That’s fine (with me). But the chips have been down, and the stakes incredibly high, which should have become obvious to everyone by the year 2000, if not decades before. It’s really tragic that our unitary message can’t be: rally round the Democrat in order to beat the Republican. (I understand that the ham sandwich argument is working for everyone this year, and I appreciate it. Wish it had been happening all along.)
By the way, there are still drones. I had to look that up, because we haven’t talked about it in years.
Roosevelt saved their unrestrained selfish asses. They were kicking and screaming the whole way, and they never forgave him
To my knowledge, the closest we ever came to a putsch – a literal coup, with military involvement – in this country.
sometimes their rhetoric is disturbing, or at the very least unhelpful
sapient, you continually refer to “our shared values”. I don’t see, at a national level, shared values. The topics or questions I raise here are an attempt to understand how to address that.
Voting for (D)’s is great, but it doesn’t address that. Because the values embraced by (D)’s do not represent a critical mass of opinion here. They do not represent values that are shared by everyone, or even by an overwhelming majority.
We don’t all want the same things.
So, what do we do about that?
I don’t know. I don’t have a plan. I’m not that smart. I’m just asking the question. It’s regrettable, to me, if you find that disturbing, or unhelpful, because I have no interest in disturbing you. But, disturbing or not, we have to figure it out.
It doesn’t help to not talk about it, either.
As far as near-term tactical stuff, I am 100% about the ham sandwich. If that isn’t clear, I’m not sure what else to say about it.
Roosevelt saved their unrestrained selfish asses. They were kicking and screaming the whole way, and they never forgave him
To my knowledge, the closest we ever came to a putsch – a literal coup, with military involvement – in this country.
sometimes their rhetoric is disturbing, or at the very least unhelpful
sapient, you continually refer to “our shared values”. I don’t see, at a national level, shared values. The topics or questions I raise here are an attempt to understand how to address that.
Voting for (D)’s is great, but it doesn’t address that. Because the values embraced by (D)’s do not represent a critical mass of opinion here. They do not represent values that are shared by everyone, or even by an overwhelming majority.
We don’t all want the same things.
So, what do we do about that?
I don’t know. I don’t have a plan. I’m not that smart. I’m just asking the question. It’s regrettable, to me, if you find that disturbing, or unhelpful, because I have no interest in disturbing you. But, disturbing or not, we have to figure it out.
It doesn’t help to not talk about it, either.
As far as near-term tactical stuff, I am 100% about the ham sandwich. If that isn’t clear, I’m not sure what else to say about it.
A clarification:
“Because the values embraced by (D)’s do not represent a critical mass of opinion here *in the United States*”. They are probably reasonably close to a critical mass here on ObWi.
A clarification:
“Because the values embraced by (D)’s do not represent a critical mass of opinion here *in the United States*”. They are probably reasonably close to a critical mass here on ObWi.
Do you play much in the way of games, sapient? Because your comments always read to me like someone who has played board games, but who has never really sat down and house ruled a board game or tried to create one from the ground up. Games can be broken even if they had been played productively for years by mutual consent. Just playing another round doesn’t fix a broken game.
And as I understand things here, the talk about partition and secession are not threats of violence, but are negotiations or gambits aimed at avoiding violence and as an act of communication with the opposing player. Again, we can’t choose how our opponent will choose to play and we can’t even make our opponent follow the rules. The actual rules are all just voluntary protocol.
I get that you don’t want to abandon the game, but you also can’t stop the other side from cheating if they are committed to their action. We either fix the game, force the opponent to follow the rules through coersion, exile the opponent from the game, or we walk away from the game to avoid conflict and coersion.
I’m not sure that I have any sense, sapient, of what might make you walk away from Omelas.
Do you play much in the way of games, sapient? Because your comments always read to me like someone who has played board games, but who has never really sat down and house ruled a board game or tried to create one from the ground up. Games can be broken even if they had been played productively for years by mutual consent. Just playing another round doesn’t fix a broken game.
And as I understand things here, the talk about partition and secession are not threats of violence, but are negotiations or gambits aimed at avoiding violence and as an act of communication with the opposing player. Again, we can’t choose how our opponent will choose to play and we can’t even make our opponent follow the rules. The actual rules are all just voluntary protocol.
I get that you don’t want to abandon the game, but you also can’t stop the other side from cheating if they are committed to their action. We either fix the game, force the opponent to follow the rules through coersion, exile the opponent from the game, or we walk away from the game to avoid conflict and coersion.
I’m not sure that I have any sense, sapient, of what might make you walk away from Omelas.
I’m not sure that I have any sense, sapient, of what might make you walk away from Omelas.
Goosebumps…
I’m not sure that I have any sense, sapient, of what might make you walk away from Omelas.
Goosebumps…
(By which I mean that this gave me goosebumps).
(By which I mean that this gave me goosebumps).
As far as near-term tactical stuff, I am 100% about the ham sandwich. If that isn’t clear, I’m not sure what else to say about it.
I know that. I know too that you are an incredibly gentle, kind, and principled person who wants to improve the odds for everyone around you. Most people here are empathetic and good people, even those with whom I disagree way more than I do with you.
I don’t know. I don’t have a plan. I’m not that smart. I’m just asking the question. It’s regrettable, to me, if you find that disturbing, or unhelpful, because I have no interest in disturbing you. But, disturbing or not, we have to figure it out.
Of course we do, and of course it isn’t about my feeling of being disturbed. It’s more who would benefit, and who would be harmed by secession, and how would it play out? Let’s figure that out first. Let’s figure out how the toxic (not just “they want different things”, but toxic) elements of our society would continue to perform under whatever scenario that suggestion would bring. Perhaps it would be the first move in a scenario where there would then be a war that we could win. Unlikely and extremely costly, but possible.
“Because the values embraced by (D)’s do not represent a critical mass of opinion here *in the United States*”.
They represent the majority of the people. That’s a critical mass in a democracy. They don’t represent a majority in each state because of flaws that we’ve discussed. They are very close to winning the electoral college if we subtracted voter suppression and ratf’ing. Look what happened in Wisconsin when people had to risk their lives to vote. They stepped up. They voted our way. I would suggest that before we resign ourselves to saying that we have no shared values, we try just a little harder.
Thanks, and I’m sorry if I seemed vicious.
And as I understand things here, the talk about partition and secession are not threats of violence, but are negotiations or gambits aimed at avoiding violence and as an act of communication with the opposing player.
Okay, perhaps I’ll try to look at it that way. They seem like invitations to violence and suffering to me.
I’m not sure that I have any sense, sapient, of what might make you walk away from Omelas.
Good question. Maybe a better question is how to save the child.
As far as near-term tactical stuff, I am 100% about the ham sandwich. If that isn’t clear, I’m not sure what else to say about it.
I know that. I know too that you are an incredibly gentle, kind, and principled person who wants to improve the odds for everyone around you. Most people here are empathetic and good people, even those with whom I disagree way more than I do with you.
I don’t know. I don’t have a plan. I’m not that smart. I’m just asking the question. It’s regrettable, to me, if you find that disturbing, or unhelpful, because I have no interest in disturbing you. But, disturbing or not, we have to figure it out.
Of course we do, and of course it isn’t about my feeling of being disturbed. It’s more who would benefit, and who would be harmed by secession, and how would it play out? Let’s figure that out first. Let’s figure out how the toxic (not just “they want different things”, but toxic) elements of our society would continue to perform under whatever scenario that suggestion would bring. Perhaps it would be the first move in a scenario where there would then be a war that we could win. Unlikely and extremely costly, but possible.
“Because the values embraced by (D)’s do not represent a critical mass of opinion here *in the United States*”.
They represent the majority of the people. That’s a critical mass in a democracy. They don’t represent a majority in each state because of flaws that we’ve discussed. They are very close to winning the electoral college if we subtracted voter suppression and ratf’ing. Look what happened in Wisconsin when people had to risk their lives to vote. They stepped up. They voted our way. I would suggest that before we resign ourselves to saying that we have no shared values, we try just a little harder.
Thanks, and I’m sorry if I seemed vicious.
And as I understand things here, the talk about partition and secession are not threats of violence, but are negotiations or gambits aimed at avoiding violence and as an act of communication with the opposing player.
Okay, perhaps I’ll try to look at it that way. They seem like invitations to violence and suffering to me.
I’m not sure that I have any sense, sapient, of what might make you walk away from Omelas.
Good question. Maybe a better question is how to save the child.
Let’s figure out how the toxic (not just “they want different things”, but toxic) elements of our society would continue to perform
What I find challenging in the current moment is teasing apart the actually toxic stuff – e.g. fascists, white supremacists, latter-day Klansmen, people who generally just want to watch the world burn – from people who legitimately have different interests from “people like me”.
There are a lot of people who are not toxic in the sense of wanting to kill people who aren’t like them, but who simply don’t buy in to the pluralistic ethos that is a big part of what the (D)’s advocate.
Or, who really just Do Not Want public interference in their lives. Or want it reduced to the smallest possible amount, even if that means they lose out on some things.
There are a lot of cultures in this country. And by “culture”, again, I’m not talking about music or art or food, I’m talking about fundamental beliefs about what the basis of a political community is, and what obligations the members of that community have toward each other.
“Opinions vary” as the NYT might say.
It’s a really big challenge. People Like You And Me might not be right about everything, and in a lot of cases who’s “right” or “wrong” might not actually be relevant.
In some ways I think the obviously toxic stuff is kind of a sideshow. It’s really dangerous, like a mad dog is dangerous, but it’s also relatively easy to factor out, in and of itself.
The rest of it is what I see as the hard part.
Let’s figure out how the toxic (not just “they want different things”, but toxic) elements of our society would continue to perform
What I find challenging in the current moment is teasing apart the actually toxic stuff – e.g. fascists, white supremacists, latter-day Klansmen, people who generally just want to watch the world burn – from people who legitimately have different interests from “people like me”.
There are a lot of people who are not toxic in the sense of wanting to kill people who aren’t like them, but who simply don’t buy in to the pluralistic ethos that is a big part of what the (D)’s advocate.
Or, who really just Do Not Want public interference in their lives. Or want it reduced to the smallest possible amount, even if that means they lose out on some things.
There are a lot of cultures in this country. And by “culture”, again, I’m not talking about music or art or food, I’m talking about fundamental beliefs about what the basis of a political community is, and what obligations the members of that community have toward each other.
“Opinions vary” as the NYT might say.
It’s a really big challenge. People Like You And Me might not be right about everything, and in a lot of cases who’s “right” or “wrong” might not actually be relevant.
In some ways I think the obviously toxic stuff is kind of a sideshow. It’s really dangerous, like a mad dog is dangerous, but it’s also relatively easy to factor out, in and of itself.
The rest of it is what I see as the hard part.
There are a lot of people who are not toxic in the sense of wanting to kill people who aren’t like them, but who simply don’t buy in to the pluralistic ethos that is a big part of what the (D)’s advocate.
I don’t agree with this. I agree that they tell themselves that they aren’t toxic, but they buy into it. They can see what’s happening. They choose to believe that it’s not them.
I’m not allowed to point out people here, and their inconsistent beliefs about things without being called out as vicious and being banned, so I’ll refrain. But anyone who isn’t at least willing to cast a vote for a Democrat, and has looked around at people in concentration camps, and Barr, and corruption, and lying, etc., and can’t stand the thought of voting for a less-than-perfect person. I mean, c’mon. They are complicit. No, they won’t admit it to themselves – of course, they’re “nice”. But no, actually, not nice. Sorry. There is evil and stupid. Pick. If they’re nice, they’re stupid, and they don’t like being called that either.
This is not a mystery. They don’t “want different things”. They do not give a s* about people suffering. They aren’t willing to help fix it. That’s toxic.
There are a lot of people who are not toxic in the sense of wanting to kill people who aren’t like them, but who simply don’t buy in to the pluralistic ethos that is a big part of what the (D)’s advocate.
I don’t agree with this. I agree that they tell themselves that they aren’t toxic, but they buy into it. They can see what’s happening. They choose to believe that it’s not them.
I’m not allowed to point out people here, and their inconsistent beliefs about things without being called out as vicious and being banned, so I’ll refrain. But anyone who isn’t at least willing to cast a vote for a Democrat, and has looked around at people in concentration camps, and Barr, and corruption, and lying, etc., and can’t stand the thought of voting for a less-than-perfect person. I mean, c’mon. They are complicit. No, they won’t admit it to themselves – of course, they’re “nice”. But no, actually, not nice. Sorry. There is evil and stupid. Pick. If they’re nice, they’re stupid, and they don’t like being called that either.
This is not a mystery. They don’t “want different things”. They do not give a s* about people suffering. They aren’t willing to help fix it. That’s toxic.
By the way, not calling out a commenter by name, but there was a person who went on some anti-Chinese rant about how irresponsible it was for China to let people fly into the US. This commenter didn’t respond when I pointed out that the commenter’s own governor let a bunch of yahoos from the state go to Mexico on a chartered plane to infect a lot of people. Nice, right? Of course, very nice. Wants different things.
By the way, not calling out a commenter by name, but there was a person who went on some anti-Chinese rant about how irresponsible it was for China to let people fly into the US. This commenter didn’t respond when I pointed out that the commenter’s own governor let a bunch of yahoos from the state go to Mexico on a chartered plane to infect a lot of people. Nice, right? Of course, very nice. Wants different things.
What I find challenging in the current moment is teasing apart the actually toxic stuff – . . . – from people who legitimately have different interests from “people like me”.
I would note that this isn’t precisely binary. Someone can have legitimately different interests, but hold back from going all in on them because doing so would be toxic. But still wish to push those different interests to some degree. Or they can go all in, in spite of that making things toxic for others. (Or for society as a whole.)
What I find challenging in the current moment is teasing apart the actually toxic stuff – . . . – from people who legitimately have different interests from “people like me”.
I would note that this isn’t precisely binary. Someone can have legitimately different interests, but hold back from going all in on them because doing so would be toxic. But still wish to push those different interests to some degree. Or they can go all in, in spite of that making things toxic for others. (Or for society as a whole.)
No, not irresponsible. Criminal, that was the word used. Not to stick up for authoritarian governments who put an entire giant ethnic group into concentration camps. But let’s pick the right battles.
No, not irresponsible. Criminal, that was the word used. Not to stick up for authoritarian governments who put an entire giant ethnic group into concentration camps. But let’s pick the right battles.
Oh, right, can’t pick the concentration camp battle, because that’s something we’re emulating more obviously.
Oh, right, can’t pick the concentration camp battle, because that’s something we’re emulating more obviously.
Now go away or I will shame you a second time!
Now go away or I will shame you a second time!
No worries, nous. Vicious?
No worries, nous. Vicious?
I’ll just leave this here, I hope everyone is well:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MkVrRYjUS30&feature=youtu.be
I’ll just leave this here, I hope everyone is well:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MkVrRYjUS30&feature=youtu.be
I’d just observe that in the current situation, unless you want people going out and making a protest, whipping people up and getting all ranty is probably the last thing you want to do.
As far as some anti-Chinese rant, I wish I had noticed that and I might have also replied. One of the things to realize is not everyone sees the same things that you do. Can be a hard lesson to learn (as many teachers who are doing online classes are discovering) but it is a worthwhile one.
I’d just observe that in the current situation, unless you want people going out and making a protest, whipping people up and getting all ranty is probably the last thing you want to do.
As far as some anti-Chinese rant, I wish I had noticed that and I might have also replied. One of the things to realize is not everyone sees the same things that you do. Can be a hard lesson to learn (as many teachers who are doing online classes are discovering) but it is a worthwhile one.
They choose to believe that it’s not them.
I’m sure that’s true. I’m just saying that it’s possible not be, or vote for, or embrace all of the policies of, (D)’s, and still not be a toxic human being.
At least, I think it is.
Now go away or I will shame you a second time!
LOL
I’ll just leave this here, I hope everyone is well
I more than appreciate the thoughts expressed by the song, and I wish you and yours well also.
I think sometimes that good wishes are mistaken for good effects. I’m not trying to stick it to you, but I think sometimes that your sincere good wishes are offered as a way to deflect, whether intentionally or not, from the substance of some of the things we talk about here.
I absolutely recognize that you wish other people well. And, in the values that you present here as your own – your American dream, and the policies that it results in, and the people you end up supporting as a result – I also recognize effects that have left a lot of people in a bad place.
At least, as I understand our common history of, say, the last 40 or 50 years.
Other than people who actually are toxic – people who actually and intentionally wish harm to others – we all want people to do well. To be happy, to be healthy, to have enough, to thrive according to their own abilities and desires.
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
All of that said – and not to dismiss all of that – details matter. Substance matters. Intentions are not sufficient, regardless of how benevolent.
Good intentions are better than bad intentions. But not sufficient.
Stay well everyone.
They choose to believe that it’s not them.
I’m sure that’s true. I’m just saying that it’s possible not be, or vote for, or embrace all of the policies of, (D)’s, and still not be a toxic human being.
At least, I think it is.
Now go away or I will shame you a second time!
LOL
I’ll just leave this here, I hope everyone is well
I more than appreciate the thoughts expressed by the song, and I wish you and yours well also.
I think sometimes that good wishes are mistaken for good effects. I’m not trying to stick it to you, but I think sometimes that your sincere good wishes are offered as a way to deflect, whether intentionally or not, from the substance of some of the things we talk about here.
I absolutely recognize that you wish other people well. And, in the values that you present here as your own – your American dream, and the policies that it results in, and the people you end up supporting as a result – I also recognize effects that have left a lot of people in a bad place.
At least, as I understand our common history of, say, the last 40 or 50 years.
Other than people who actually are toxic – people who actually and intentionally wish harm to others – we all want people to do well. To be happy, to be healthy, to have enough, to thrive according to their own abilities and desires.
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
All of that said – and not to dismiss all of that – details matter. Substance matters. Intentions are not sufficient, regardless of how benevolent.
Good intentions are better than bad intentions. But not sufficient.
Stay well everyone.
They never give up.
That’s why we have to crush them.
They never give up.
That’s why we have to crush them.
Rephrased: That’s why they need to be crushed.
ht JanieM 🙂
Rephrased: That’s why they need to be crushed.
ht JanieM 🙂
Out here in the 48th soviet of Washington, watching MSNBC interview Billy fucking Kristol…what a fucking joke. He needs to be venomously shunned, and angrily laughed out of the room, not given air time.
godallfuckingmighty. Our politics are so broken.
Out here in the 48th soviet of Washington, watching MSNBC interview Billy fucking Kristol…what a fucking joke. He needs to be venomously shunned, and angrily laughed out of the room, not given air time.
godallfuckingmighty. Our politics are so broken.
Nearly one-third of Americans believe a coronavirus vaccine exists and is being withheld, survey finds
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/24/coronavirus-one-third-us-believe-vaccine-exists-is-being-withheld/3004841001/
…Twenty-nine percent said it’s either probably or definitely true that a vaccine that prevents coronavirus infection exists and is being withheld, according to the Democracy Fund + UCLA Nationscape Project. An even greater percentage, 32%, said they believe treatment that cures coronavirus infection exists but is being withheld. Around 7 out of 10 Americans said those statements are untrue…
Nearly one-third of Americans believe a coronavirus vaccine exists and is being withheld, survey finds
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/24/coronavirus-one-third-us-believe-vaccine-exists-is-being-withheld/3004841001/
…Twenty-nine percent said it’s either probably or definitely true that a vaccine that prevents coronavirus infection exists and is being withheld, according to the Democracy Fund + UCLA Nationscape Project. An even greater percentage, 32%, said they believe treatment that cures coronavirus infection exists but is being withheld. Around 7 out of 10 Americans said those statements are untrue…
The new model Frum has been publishing very interesting stuff.
Why Mitch McConnell Wants States to Go Bankrupt
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/why-mitch-mcconnell-wants-states-go-bankrupt/610714/
Worth reading in full.
The new model Frum has been publishing very interesting stuff.
Why Mitch McConnell Wants States to Go Bankrupt
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/why-mitch-mcconnell-wants-states-go-bankrupt/610714/
Worth reading in full.
the crazification factor
the crazification factor
From Nigel’s Atlantic link:
(This is just an aside, not intended to distract from the larger point: UPS, huh? I wonder how his thoughts on the USPS are influenced by that funding source.)
From Nigel’s Atlantic link:
(This is just an aside, not intended to distract from the larger point: UPS, huh? I wonder how his thoughts on the USPS are influenced by that funding source.)
32%, said they believe treatment that cures coronavirus infection exists but is being withheld.
I read stuff like that and I always wonder: To what end?
I mean, with some conspriacy theories, I can at least understand the goal of the supposed conspiracy, and how someone might benefit; even if the theory itself is batshit crazy. But something like this? Cloud cookooland.
32%, said they believe treatment that cures coronavirus infection exists but is being withheld.
I read stuff like that and I always wonder: To what end?
I mean, with some conspriacy theories, I can at least understand the goal of the supposed conspiracy, and how someone might benefit; even if the theory itself is batshit crazy. But something like this? Cloud cookooland.
Well, of course it is to be given only to the deserving. But if it became public knowledge, everyone would want it and cheap too. And the general panic is by far not great enough to fetch a sufficient price for it even if government could be trusted not to intervene in price gouging shenanigans.
Or it is feared that the stuff would turn people liberal or gay or less gullible or something else not desirable.
Well, of course it is to be given only to the deserving. But if it became public knowledge, everyone would want it and cheap too. And the general panic is by far not great enough to fetch a sufficient price for it even if government could be trusted not to intervene in price gouging shenanigans.
Or it is feared that the stuff would turn people liberal or gay or less gullible or something else not desirable.
I’d venture that some of those people who believe that cures exist and are being withheld don’t think there is a conspiracy in place, but rather that someone has discovered the cure and the bureaucrats at the fed are forcing them through extra trials and slowing everything down.
And people like the assholes in Bakersfield are reinforcing that impression when they complain about the elites being too cautious.
I’d venture that some of those people who believe that cures exist and are being withheld don’t think there is a conspiracy in place, but rather that someone has discovered the cure and the bureaucrats at the fed are forcing them through extra trials and slowing everything down.
And people like the assholes in Bakersfield are reinforcing that impression when they complain about the elites being too cautious.
They never give up.
They want all the cookies.
That may seem reductive, but sometimes it’s helpful to simplify in order to maintain focus.
They want all the cookies.
They never give up.
They want all the cookies.
That may seem reductive, but sometimes it’s helpful to simplify in order to maintain focus.
They want all the cookies.
I’d venture that some of those people who believe that cures exist and are being withheld don’t think there is a conspiracy in place, but rather that someone has discovered the cure and the bureaucrats at the fed are forcing them through extra trials and slowing everything down.
I admit, I could see that happening eventually. But the sign would be the cure/vaccine being rolled out around the rest of the world. Even if our Federal bureaucrats came down with another case of Not Invented Here, like they did over tests for the virus. But so far, not plausible cures elsewhere either.
I’d venture that some of those people who believe that cures exist and are being withheld don’t think there is a conspiracy in place, but rather that someone has discovered the cure and the bureaucrats at the fed are forcing them through extra trials and slowing everything down.
I admit, I could see that happening eventually. But the sign would be the cure/vaccine being rolled out around the rest of the world. Even if our Federal bureaucrats came down with another case of Not Invented Here, like they did over tests for the virus. But so far, not plausible cures elsewhere either.
They want all the cookies.
Many years ago, when Native Americans were in the news a lot because of “Dances with Wolves,” a Native woman told an interviewer something along the lines of “When whites invaded our lands, and broke every treaty they signed with us, we realized they didn’t want to ‘share,’ or ‘have part of, or ‘respect Indian claims.’ They wanted it all. They wanted everything. They meant from the start to take everything that was ours.”
The attitude isn’t new. It’s now directed at everyone who isn’t them.
They want all the cookies.
Many years ago, when Native Americans were in the news a lot because of “Dances with Wolves,” a Native woman told an interviewer something along the lines of “When whites invaded our lands, and broke every treaty they signed with us, we realized they didn’t want to ‘share,’ or ‘have part of, or ‘respect Indian claims.’ They wanted it all. They wanted everything. They meant from the start to take everything that was ours.”
The attitude isn’t new. It’s now directed at everyone who isn’t them.
From a grad school colleague of mine on FB:
There has been some good reporting on Tyson and the meatpacking industry the past couple days, particular on the labor violations, monopolistic consolidation, and the gruesome costs of overproduction. But to understand the problems with Tyson, you have to start with the normalization of stock buyback schemes in the name of shareholder value.
Over the last four and a half years, Tyson has spent nearly $4 Billion buying back stock from its shareholders, many of whom are members of the Tyson family or the company’s executive team.
On some particularly grievous occasions, more than half of the company’s earnings for a quarter were immediately transferred into the hands of individual shareholders.
Stock buybacks enrich investors both by cashing in retired shares at a premium and by increasing the price of the remaining shares. From the moment Tyson began its outrageous buyback program in September 2015 to January of this year, it succeeded in more than doubling its share price, from $42 to $92.
Now, sure, when Tyson bought back $132 Million in shares in December of 2019, the company could not have known that the COVID-19 outbreak was about to begin. But that’s exactly the point.
If Tyson executives had been merely half as greedy over the past five years, they would have had an extra $2 Billion (or more) in their corporate coffers to spend reinforcing their supposedly broken supply chain, instituting safety measures in their factories, etc.
They would have been able to do this without borrowing against future revenues and thus might’ve prevented the shorting and selloff of their shares, which dropped the market price by 43%.
In lobbying federal and state governments for essential service and worker safety waivers, as well as other government subsidies, Tyson is claiming that it is a vital cog in the U.S. food production infrastructure. If this is true, than it should not be allowed to enrich executives over the short-term at the expense of its long-term solvency. It should not be allowed to electively waste meat products during a period of rising nationwide food precarity because it finds the present distribution model insufficiently profitable.
From a grad school colleague of mine on FB:
There has been some good reporting on Tyson and the meatpacking industry the past couple days, particular on the labor violations, monopolistic consolidation, and the gruesome costs of overproduction. But to understand the problems with Tyson, you have to start with the normalization of stock buyback schemes in the name of shareholder value.
Over the last four and a half years, Tyson has spent nearly $4 Billion buying back stock from its shareholders, many of whom are members of the Tyson family or the company’s executive team.
On some particularly grievous occasions, more than half of the company’s earnings for a quarter were immediately transferred into the hands of individual shareholders.
Stock buybacks enrich investors both by cashing in retired shares at a premium and by increasing the price of the remaining shares. From the moment Tyson began its outrageous buyback program in September 2015 to January of this year, it succeeded in more than doubling its share price, from $42 to $92.
Now, sure, when Tyson bought back $132 Million in shares in December of 2019, the company could not have known that the COVID-19 outbreak was about to begin. But that’s exactly the point.
If Tyson executives had been merely half as greedy over the past five years, they would have had an extra $2 Billion (or more) in their corporate coffers to spend reinforcing their supposedly broken supply chain, instituting safety measures in their factories, etc.
They would have been able to do this without borrowing against future revenues and thus might’ve prevented the shorting and selloff of their shares, which dropped the market price by 43%.
In lobbying federal and state governments for essential service and worker safety waivers, as well as other government subsidies, Tyson is claiming that it is a vital cog in the U.S. food production infrastructure. If this is true, than it should not be allowed to enrich executives over the short-term at the expense of its long-term solvency. It should not be allowed to electively waste meat products during a period of rising nationwide food precarity because it finds the present distribution model insufficiently profitable.
Milton Friedman, 1970, in the NYT: the only social responsibility of business is to increase its profits
Jensen and Meckling, 1976, “Theory of the firm”: executives and board members are agents of shareholders, and their purpose is maximizing shareholder value
The above were changes – significant changes – to the general understanding of the raison d’etre of for-profit corporations. They have since become reflected in corporate law and practice.
They represent a fundamental change in our basic values as a society. Economically, socially, politically. They represent a change in culture.
I don’t really care if people get rich. Provide useful goods and services, create value, make a lot of money, fine with me. Enjoy the fruit of your labor. Fly first class, drink nice wine, get your shirts custom made, have a nice car and a couple of houses. Retire at age 40, paint watercolors, and bake interesting artisanal bread. Whatever floats your boat.
Live it up.
I care when folks want all the damned cookies.
Milton Friedman, 1970, in the NYT: the only social responsibility of business is to increase its profits
Jensen and Meckling, 1976, “Theory of the firm”: executives and board members are agents of shareholders, and their purpose is maximizing shareholder value
The above were changes – significant changes – to the general understanding of the raison d’etre of for-profit corporations. They have since become reflected in corporate law and practice.
They represent a fundamental change in our basic values as a society. Economically, socially, politically. They represent a change in culture.
I don’t really care if people get rich. Provide useful goods and services, create value, make a lot of money, fine with me. Enjoy the fruit of your labor. Fly first class, drink nice wine, get your shirts custom made, have a nice car and a couple of houses. Retire at age 40, paint watercolors, and bake interesting artisanal bread. Whatever floats your boat.
Live it up.
I care when folks want all the damned cookies.
The above were changes – significant changes – to the general understanding of the raison d’etre of for-profit corporations. They have since become reflected in corporate law and practice.
They represent a fundamental change in our basic values as a society. Economically, socially, politically. They represent a change in culture.
Unlike certain massively insecure (and with reason) individuals, we can step back and say: “This was a mistake.” And back out those changes to the law and to corporate practice. And we should.
Certainly, it won’t be easy. But if memory serves, making the change originally wasn’t all that easy. The culture resisted changing. Just . . . not enough.
The above were changes – significant changes – to the general understanding of the raison d’etre of for-profit corporations. They have since become reflected in corporate law and practice.
They represent a fundamental change in our basic values as a society. Economically, socially, politically. They represent a change in culture.
Unlike certain massively insecure (and with reason) individuals, we can step back and say: “This was a mistake.” And back out those changes to the law and to corporate practice. And we should.
Certainly, it won’t be easy. But if memory serves, making the change originally wasn’t all that easy. The culture resisted changing. Just . . . not enough.
The resistance has already started in many business schools (not enough, but I know enough to know the wind is shifting). But it may take time to shift the narrative, and there’s a glut of B-school assholes who resist retraining and have already fully embraced their “truth.”
A bunch of those assholes are running the country and holding the president’s passy for him.
The resistance has already started in many business schools (not enough, but I know enough to know the wind is shifting). But it may take time to shift the narrative, and there’s a glut of B-school assholes who resist retraining and have already fully embraced their “truth.”
A bunch of those assholes are running the country and holding the president’s passy for him.
“Businesses are accustomed to being criticized for neglecting their responsibilities to society. Complaints that private enterprise puts profit before people have long provided reliable applause lines for politicians and assorted activists, and material for the briefs of crusading public-interest attorneys. But in the past few years, the concept of corporate social responsibility—increasingly part of the curriculum in America’s schools of business and management—has established itself as a political and social force to be reckoned with. This can be seen in recent proposals in Congress and elsewhere to offer tax breaks or regulate differently firms that shoulder their “social responsibilities.”
…
In other words, perhaps commercial activity—as distinguished from other forms of behavior, such as personal philanthropy or government action—confers unique benefits on society. Realistically, all sorts of problems in society can be viewed as within the purview of corporate activity. But in Friedman’s view, the response of corporations to these problems will and must be different because of the nature of profit-seeking business. “The crucial question for a corporation is not whether some action is in the interest of the corporation, but whether it is enough in its interest to justify the money spent,” he wrote. Companies, then, bring a search for efficiency and economy to the task of solving problems. This search represents a fundamentally different way of addressing social problems from the means employed by governments, charities, churches, or families. To erase the distinctions between corporations and other institutions is potentially to lose the unique problem-solving opportunities that free enterprise creates. In effect, private business is fulfilling its “social responsibility” if, and only if, it tries to make a profit.”
Do Corporations Have Social Responsibilities?: Free Enterprise Creates Unique Problem-Solving Opportunities
“Businesses are accustomed to being criticized for neglecting their responsibilities to society. Complaints that private enterprise puts profit before people have long provided reliable applause lines for politicians and assorted activists, and material for the briefs of crusading public-interest attorneys. But in the past few years, the concept of corporate social responsibility—increasingly part of the curriculum in America’s schools of business and management—has established itself as a political and social force to be reckoned with. This can be seen in recent proposals in Congress and elsewhere to offer tax breaks or regulate differently firms that shoulder their “social responsibilities.”
…
In other words, perhaps commercial activity—as distinguished from other forms of behavior, such as personal philanthropy or government action—confers unique benefits on society. Realistically, all sorts of problems in society can be viewed as within the purview of corporate activity. But in Friedman’s view, the response of corporations to these problems will and must be different because of the nature of profit-seeking business. “The crucial question for a corporation is not whether some action is in the interest of the corporation, but whether it is enough in its interest to justify the money spent,” he wrote. Companies, then, bring a search for efficiency and economy to the task of solving problems. This search represents a fundamentally different way of addressing social problems from the means employed by governments, charities, churches, or families. To erase the distinctions between corporations and other institutions is potentially to lose the unique problem-solving opportunities that free enterprise creates. In effect, private business is fulfilling its “social responsibility” if, and only if, it tries to make a profit.”
Do Corporations Have Social Responsibilities?: Free Enterprise Creates Unique Problem-Solving Opportunities
“The crucial question for a corporation is not whether some action is in the interest of the corporation, but whether it is enough in its interest to justify the money spent,”
So tell me Charles, how is that not also a crucial question for a natural person? (With, perhaps, a caveat for “time and money” vs just “money”.) Or do you wish to argue that people have no responsibility beyond their own self-interest either? And what a nasty world to live in that would be.
“The crucial question for a corporation is not whether some action is in the interest of the corporation, but whether it is enough in its interest to justify the money spent,”
So tell me Charles, how is that not also a crucial question for a natural person? (With, perhaps, a caveat for “time and money” vs just “money”.) Or do you wish to argue that people have no responsibility beyond their own self-interest either? And what a nasty world to live in that would be.
To erase the distinctions between corporations and other institutions is potentially to lose the unique problem-solving opportunities that free enterprise creates.
Well this is simply propaganda. Look at it this way: Unleashing corporations from all social binds is to potentially (love that word) denigrate and constrict all other forms and approaches that human problem solving behavior may take. The profit maximizers will pick all the easy fruit and leave the seeds and stems for others. They will privatize profit and socialize risk. They will seek to expand the sphere of cost externalities.
In short, they will maximize and institutionalize social irresponsibility.
In effect, private business is fulfilling its “social responsibility” if, and only if, it tries to make a profit.”
Back in the early 19th century when corporations were becoming a “thing” they were commonly chartered by government (their creator) with an explicit social purpose, and it was up to the creative minds of these so called job creators to figure that out and still make a few bucks along the way.
Sadly, we have forgotten that concept.
To erase the distinctions between corporations and other institutions is potentially to lose the unique problem-solving opportunities that free enterprise creates.
Well this is simply propaganda. Look at it this way: Unleashing corporations from all social binds is to potentially (love that word) denigrate and constrict all other forms and approaches that human problem solving behavior may take. The profit maximizers will pick all the easy fruit and leave the seeds and stems for others. They will privatize profit and socialize risk. They will seek to expand the sphere of cost externalities.
In short, they will maximize and institutionalize social irresponsibility.
In effect, private business is fulfilling its “social responsibility” if, and only if, it tries to make a profit.”
Back in the early 19th century when corporations were becoming a “thing” they were commonly chartered by government (their creator) with an explicit social purpose, and it was up to the creative minds of these so called job creators to figure that out and still make a few bucks along the way.
Sadly, we have forgotten that concept.
“But perhaps most importantly, stock buybacks are a brilliant example of the free-market system offering a win-win to both parties. In other words, when the corporation purchases its own stock, the money from that exchange has to go somewhere. Presumably, the investor that just received the money would re-invest in another company that would be more inclined to use that money on investments in labor, R&D, or capital. After all, not all companies are at equal stages of development.
Some companies may be mature and not have a plan to expand. In that case, rewarding shareholders through stock buybacks makes more sense than unnecessarily forcing an expansion. Other companies might be earlier in development and would need to fund investments in order to expand. But to force a company to invest in capital that it might not otherwise need would be an inefficient use of resources—not to mention, an outrageous overstep of government power.”
There’s Nothing Inherently Bad about Stock Buybacks: Stock buybacks get cash out of companies that don’t have plans to grow and into companies that do.
“But perhaps most importantly, stock buybacks are a brilliant example of the free-market system offering a win-win to both parties. In other words, when the corporation purchases its own stock, the money from that exchange has to go somewhere. Presumably, the investor that just received the money would re-invest in another company that would be more inclined to use that money on investments in labor, R&D, or capital. After all, not all companies are at equal stages of development.
Some companies may be mature and not have a plan to expand. In that case, rewarding shareholders through stock buybacks makes more sense than unnecessarily forcing an expansion. Other companies might be earlier in development and would need to fund investments in order to expand. But to force a company to invest in capital that it might not otherwise need would be an inefficient use of resources—not to mention, an outrageous overstep of government power.”
There’s Nothing Inherently Bad about Stock Buybacks: Stock buybacks get cash out of companies that don’t have plans to grow and into companies that do.
The crucial question for a corporation is not whether some action is in the interest of the corporation, but whether it is enough in its interest to justify the money spent,” he wrote.
The crucial question for a corporation is not whether some action is in the interest of the corporation, but whether it is enough in the public interest to justify the guarantees against personal liability for its investors that the public grants to it.
There’s Nothing Inherently Bad about Stock Buybacks
There’s nothing inherently bad about COVID-19. It’s just a bunch of RNA wrapped in a ball of lipids with protein spikes.
It’s when it hits your lungs that the problems start.
I’d take libertarianism a lot more seriously if it hadn’t been so thoroughly co-opted by the folks that want all the cookies.
The crucial question for a corporation is not whether some action is in the interest of the corporation, but whether it is enough in its interest to justify the money spent,” he wrote.
The crucial question for a corporation is not whether some action is in the interest of the corporation, but whether it is enough in the public interest to justify the guarantees against personal liability for its investors that the public grants to it.
There’s Nothing Inherently Bad about Stock Buybacks
There’s nothing inherently bad about COVID-19. It’s just a bunch of RNA wrapped in a ball of lipids with protein spikes.
It’s when it hits your lungs that the problems start.
I’d take libertarianism a lot more seriously if it hadn’t been so thoroughly co-opted by the folks that want all the cookies.
CharlesWT presumably endorses: But perhaps most importantly, stock buybacks are a brilliant example of the free-market system offering a win-win to both parties.
Both parties? There are only two? Society, or The Government, or the IRS — however you choose to denominate the 3rd “party” that consists of everybody other than the corporate chieftains and the shareholders — are irrelevant to the transaction?
Some companies may be mature and not have a plan to expand.
Ever hear of “dividends”? I know higher pay for the line workers is anathema to “both parties”, but dividends are a perfectly good way for a cash cow company to deploy its profits without being “forced” to expand.
Of course, dividends are not a “perfectly good way”, are they? For dividends are ordinary income to the shareholders, whereas their profits from selling back shares count as “capital gains” — which means the IRS (a “3rd party”) gets less out of the win-win-loss buyback deal.
Buybacks would make much less sense if we abolished the silliness of lower tax rates on cap gains than on honest toil.
CharlesWT is smart enough to know all this. So perhaps he is also smart enough to tell me something: can a corporation buy back ALL its stock? Would it then be autonomous, like an emancipated minor, answerable to no one — not even to its CEO or other top-level hirelings? And what the hell would that mean?
BTW, Charles, don’t tell me it’s impossible for a corporation to own all its own stock. Any person can own as much stock as they like; why should corporate “persons” be any different?
–TP
CharlesWT presumably endorses: But perhaps most importantly, stock buybacks are a brilliant example of the free-market system offering a win-win to both parties.
Both parties? There are only two? Society, or The Government, or the IRS — however you choose to denominate the 3rd “party” that consists of everybody other than the corporate chieftains and the shareholders — are irrelevant to the transaction?
Some companies may be mature and not have a plan to expand.
Ever hear of “dividends”? I know higher pay for the line workers is anathema to “both parties”, but dividends are a perfectly good way for a cash cow company to deploy its profits without being “forced” to expand.
Of course, dividends are not a “perfectly good way”, are they? For dividends are ordinary income to the shareholders, whereas their profits from selling back shares count as “capital gains” — which means the IRS (a “3rd party”) gets less out of the win-win-loss buyback deal.
Buybacks would make much less sense if we abolished the silliness of lower tax rates on cap gains than on honest toil.
CharlesWT is smart enough to know all this. So perhaps he is also smart enough to tell me something: can a corporation buy back ALL its stock? Would it then be autonomous, like an emancipated minor, answerable to no one — not even to its CEO or other top-level hirelings? And what the hell would that mean?
BTW, Charles, don’t tell me it’s impossible for a corporation to own all its own stock. Any person can own as much stock as they like; why should corporate “persons” be any different?
–TP
Human existence is linear algebra if you ignore almost everything that’s meaningful. Try to keep up.
Human existence is linear algebra if you ignore almost everything that’s meaningful. Try to keep up.
BTW, Charles, don’t tell me it’s impossible for a corporation to own all its own stock.
There’s nothing the corporation could offer the holder of the last share of stock that’s worth more than the share since the holder already owns the whole corporation including anything it can offer for the share. In some jurisdictions, it’s illegal for a corporation to have fewer than one or two shares of stock.
BTW, Charles, don’t tell me it’s impossible for a corporation to own all its own stock.
There’s nothing the corporation could offer the holder of the last share of stock that’s worth more than the share since the holder already owns the whole corporation including anything it can offer for the share. In some jurisdictions, it’s illegal for a corporation to have fewer than one or two shares of stock.
Simple solution: two (or more) corporations buy each other. One can argue whether they paid “fair value” for the final share. But hey . . . willing buyer/willing seller. Obviously the government has no standing to interfere in such a voluntary transaction.
Simple solution: two (or more) corporations buy each other. One can argue whether they paid “fair value” for the final share. But hey . . . willing buyer/willing seller. Obviously the government has no standing to interfere in such a voluntary transaction.
“Cross holding is a situation in which a publicly-traded corporation owns stock in another publicly-traded company. So, technically, listed corporations own securities issued by other listed corporations. Cross holding can lead to double-counting, whereby the equity of each company is counted twice when determining value, which can result in estimating the wrong value of the two companies.”
Cross Holding
“Cross holding is a situation in which a publicly-traded corporation owns stock in another publicly-traded company. So, technically, listed corporations own securities issued by other listed corporations. Cross holding can lead to double-counting, whereby the equity of each company is counted twice when determining value, which can result in estimating the wrong value of the two companies.”
Cross Holding
“Share buyback refers to the repurchase of the company’s own outstanding shares from the open market using the accumulated funds of the company to decrease the outstanding shares in the company’s balance sheet thereby raising the worth of remaining outstanding shares or to block the control of various shareholders on the company.
…
There are a limited number of reasons why companies do share repurchase. They do it for the benefits that they are able to reap out of that activity. And in doing so, they also lure the shareholders into selling the shares to take some advantages like tax benefits.
However, it is in the favor of investors to stay watchful of misguiding buybacks and understand the meaning of it in the context of the situation in which a company announces a buyback.”
Share Buyback: Six reasons for, effects, and methods
“Share buyback refers to the repurchase of the company’s own outstanding shares from the open market using the accumulated funds of the company to decrease the outstanding shares in the company’s balance sheet thereby raising the worth of remaining outstanding shares or to block the control of various shareholders on the company.
…
There are a limited number of reasons why companies do share repurchase. They do it for the benefits that they are able to reap out of that activity. And in doing so, they also lure the shareholders into selling the shares to take some advantages like tax benefits.
However, it is in the favor of investors to stay watchful of misguiding buybacks and understand the meaning of it in the context of the situation in which a company announces a buyback.”
Share Buyback: Six reasons for, effects, and methods
weird how ‘rational self interest’ always ends up being used to justify the behavior of people trying to avoid personal responsibility for anything by hiding being legal constructs.
weird how ‘rational self interest’ always ends up being used to justify the behavior of people trying to avoid personal responsibility for anything by hiding being legal constructs.
Lots of companies buy back all their stock, its called taking your company private. Their are some rules on how much of a company it can own and still be listed on the public exchanges. Or even how much its principals can own.
One of the long time criticism of FB, Google and some others is their public offering left the founders in complete control.
The public float requirements are 15-25% of shares depending on the exchange.
Lots of companies buy back all their stock, its called taking your company private. Their are some rules on how much of a company it can own and still be listed on the public exchanges. Or even how much its principals can own.
One of the long time criticism of FB, Google and some others is their public offering left the founders in complete control.
The public float requirements are 15-25% of shares depending on the exchange.
Yes, Marty is correct. Companies are taken private for any number of reasons. Venture capitalists do this as a business model to then take the company public at some future point.
IPO’s routinely leave the ‘founders’ in pretty much total control of the new publicly traded entity. WalMart floated 300,000 shares in its 1970 IPO, and you can bet your sweet bippy that Sam Walton was granted just about as many shares himself to start with as part of the IPO agreement.
Publicly traded shares don’t make much sense if there are only a couple shares outstanding. Of course the company could then announce a share split.
I should think the SEC regulates the amount of float (shares outstanding) needed to stay public. OTC traded firms routinely have very limited float, often enabling insiders to play games with the share price.
Private corporations are also initially capitalized with “shares”, but they are closely held and not publicly traded.
Yes, Marty is correct. Companies are taken private for any number of reasons. Venture capitalists do this as a business model to then take the company public at some future point.
IPO’s routinely leave the ‘founders’ in pretty much total control of the new publicly traded entity. WalMart floated 300,000 shares in its 1970 IPO, and you can bet your sweet bippy that Sam Walton was granted just about as many shares himself to start with as part of the IPO agreement.
Publicly traded shares don’t make much sense if there are only a couple shares outstanding. Of course the company could then announce a share split.
I should think the SEC regulates the amount of float (shares outstanding) needed to stay public. OTC traded firms routinely have very limited float, often enabling insiders to play games with the share price.
Private corporations are also initially capitalized with “shares”, but they are closely held and not publicly traded.
This is a good piece—
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/it-took-covid-to-expose-the-fraud-of-american-exceptionalism/
If you scroll down there is also a comment by “ Brendan” that reminds me a little bit of Russell. Brendan says American exceptionalism is false, but the idea of it— our shiny city on the hill myth— is what has held us together as a nation.
It seems to me we could hold onto the good parts and ditch the arrogance. We don’t have much to be arrogant about these days, so it should be easy.
This is a good piece—
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/it-took-covid-to-expose-the-fraud-of-american-exceptionalism/
If you scroll down there is also a comment by “ Brendan” that reminds me a little bit of Russell. Brendan says American exceptionalism is false, but the idea of it— our shiny city on the hill myth— is what has held us together as a nation.
It seems to me we could hold onto the good parts and ditch the arrogance. We don’t have much to be arrogant about these days, so it should be easy.
I’m not sure Brendan’s comment in the TAC piece is that close to my point of view on this.
My understanding of American exceptionalism is that, in the late 18th C., the decision to organize a country around republican self-governance based on a written constitution was fairly exceptional. That was a significant achievement.
Our response to the nations that had been our enemies after WWII – the Marshall Plan etc – was also IMO extraordinary.
And there was a lot in our stance toward the world generally in the generation after WWII that was generous and in many ways noble. Not devoid of self-interest, but few things are.
At this point in time, our social and political innovations of the 18th C have been adopted, and adapted, by scores of other nations. We were kind of a model, I don’t really think we are at this point. The mid-20th C generation are mostly gone. Our foreign policy exploits in the subsequent couple of generations have been, frankly, less noble.
We’re still exceptional, but now mostly that is a matter of being a hegemon more than a model. We can reach pretty much any area of the world with significant if not overwhelming force, and we’re really rich and consume a lot of the world’s resources.
It’s less inspiring.
I don’t actually think there has ever been a single, coherent, commonly held understanding of what this country is about or what our values are. We’re pretty widely dispersed, so with notable exceptions it generally hasn’t prevented us from bumping along, but IMO increasing population and communication are making that harder to sustain.
“Hold on to the good parts” assumes we all agree about what the good parts are. I’m not sure that’s true. And I don’t see us dropping our tendency toward arrogance anytime soon.
TBH I think it would take some kind of serious setback for that to happen, and I’m not sure if we have the resilience to weather it.
I’m pessimistic these days, so add grains of salt as you wish.
I’m not sure Brendan’s comment in the TAC piece is that close to my point of view on this.
My understanding of American exceptionalism is that, in the late 18th C., the decision to organize a country around republican self-governance based on a written constitution was fairly exceptional. That was a significant achievement.
Our response to the nations that had been our enemies after WWII – the Marshall Plan etc – was also IMO extraordinary.
And there was a lot in our stance toward the world generally in the generation after WWII that was generous and in many ways noble. Not devoid of self-interest, but few things are.
At this point in time, our social and political innovations of the 18th C have been adopted, and adapted, by scores of other nations. We were kind of a model, I don’t really think we are at this point. The mid-20th C generation are mostly gone. Our foreign policy exploits in the subsequent couple of generations have been, frankly, less noble.
We’re still exceptional, but now mostly that is a matter of being a hegemon more than a model. We can reach pretty much any area of the world with significant if not overwhelming force, and we’re really rich and consume a lot of the world’s resources.
It’s less inspiring.
I don’t actually think there has ever been a single, coherent, commonly held understanding of what this country is about or what our values are. We’re pretty widely dispersed, so with notable exceptions it generally hasn’t prevented us from bumping along, but IMO increasing population and communication are making that harder to sustain.
“Hold on to the good parts” assumes we all agree about what the good parts are. I’m not sure that’s true. And I don’t see us dropping our tendency toward arrogance anytime soon.
TBH I think it would take some kind of serious setback for that to happen, and I’m not sure if we have the resilience to weather it.
I’m pessimistic these days, so add grains of salt as you wish.
I don’t actually think there has ever been a single, coherent, commonly held understanding of what this country is about or what our values are.
no, there really hasn’t. and they knew t from the start. again, it’s right there in the motto “E Pluribus Unum”.
some states having ballot initiatives and some not isn’t a difference worth worrying about. if you want a difference worth worrying about, consider that when this country started, many states had official state-funded, and enforced, religions. and these religions were different from their neighbors. that lasted in some states until the 1810s.
[that “establishment’ clause only applies to the federal govt, of course. states had their own establishments and the establishment clause was there to prevent the feds from stomping on them.]
and still, even with different religions and forms of government, the states decided to unite anyway.
we can get through this.
I don’t actually think there has ever been a single, coherent, commonly held understanding of what this country is about or what our values are.
no, there really hasn’t. and they knew t from the start. again, it’s right there in the motto “E Pluribus Unum”.
some states having ballot initiatives and some not isn’t a difference worth worrying about. if you want a difference worth worrying about, consider that when this country started, many states had official state-funded, and enforced, religions. and these religions were different from their neighbors. that lasted in some states until the 1810s.
[that “establishment’ clause only applies to the federal govt, of course. states had their own establishments and the establishment clause was there to prevent the feds from stomping on them.]
and still, even with different religions and forms of government, the states decided to unite anyway.
we can get through this.
Brendan says American exceptionalism is false, but the idea of it— our shiny city on the hill myth— is what has held us together as a nation.
Myths can be strong and enduring. And russell’s couple of early examples amplified the one about America, like the verse on the Statue of Liberty. But when greed and self-interest take over, and those myths become mere sentimentality and the fodder for autocrats’ propaganda, then in the absence of enormous changes at the last minute, it might be all over bar the shouting. God knows I hope not, because as someone else (here I think) said, they weren’t that hopeful that the Chinese Century would be any more palatable to people with “our” sensibilities, (our=democratic, and in most cases liberal).
Brendan says American exceptionalism is false, but the idea of it— our shiny city on the hill myth— is what has held us together as a nation.
Myths can be strong and enduring. And russell’s couple of early examples amplified the one about America, like the verse on the Statue of Liberty. But when greed and self-interest take over, and those myths become mere sentimentality and the fodder for autocrats’ propaganda, then in the absence of enormous changes at the last minute, it might be all over bar the shouting. God knows I hope not, because as someone else (here I think) said, they weren’t that hopeful that the Chinese Century would be any more palatable to people with “our” sensibilities, (our=democratic, and in most cases liberal).
The way this thread is going, I think I have to say it: “Murica!!!”
The way this thread is going, I think I have to say it: “Murica!!!”
we can get through this.
Yes, we will get through it. People do. And we probably won’t go to war about it, because there just aren’t that many people who are all that motivated to kill anybody else, and most of the issues that are on the table won’t really be resolved by killing anybody. Plus, inertia is a very powerful force in human affairs.
All of that is a pretty low bar.
And all of that said, we’re in a pretty crap place right now. I’m not talking about the virus, I’m talking about the general state of the nation. Prior to the shut-down, the largest private employers in the nation were running seminars for their employees about how to apply for federal assistance.
How about, you know, pay them more?
A lot of people have been reduced to some version or other of wage slavery. People throw that term around for shock value, I guess, but if you have virtually no agency whatsoever about your working life other than quit and go find some other crap job, if you can find one, then I don’t see a whole lot of difference between that and any of a variety of non-chattel serf arrangements.
That isn’t freedom. It isn’t liberty. Not in any practical, real-world sense.
And an enormous number of related problems flow from things like that.
It’s not sustainable for us to continue with the levels of inequity that we live with now. Not without re-thinking what our social contract is, and means. Those inequities manifest themselves economically, across gender lines, across racial lines, across geographic lines.
If the liberties we claim to provide to our people are merely hypothetical, then we aren’t who we think we are. And who we actually are is not sustainable. Things will break.
Not widespread civil war, just a profound failure of trust and confidence in the social fabric. That will have real consequences, for real people.
Not civil war, just the thwarting of a lot of lives.
It’s not like we don’t have the resources to address this. We are simply unable, IMO, to find our own @sses with both hands and a flashlight. We devalue competence, and then are required to live with the consequences of that.
I’m looking forward to Trump’s exit in November, and I’m hoping that the (D)’s keep the house and flip the Senate. And I’ll be contributing to that effort, in a variety of ways.
But I don’t expect a thousand flowers to magically bloom if and when that happens. There is a giant crap-ton of rot that will take a couple of generations to clean up, and we’re not really good at maintaining focus for those kinds of time spans.
That’s how things look to me.
we can get through this.
Yes, we will get through it. People do. And we probably won’t go to war about it, because there just aren’t that many people who are all that motivated to kill anybody else, and most of the issues that are on the table won’t really be resolved by killing anybody. Plus, inertia is a very powerful force in human affairs.
All of that is a pretty low bar.
And all of that said, we’re in a pretty crap place right now. I’m not talking about the virus, I’m talking about the general state of the nation. Prior to the shut-down, the largest private employers in the nation were running seminars for their employees about how to apply for federal assistance.
How about, you know, pay them more?
A lot of people have been reduced to some version or other of wage slavery. People throw that term around for shock value, I guess, but if you have virtually no agency whatsoever about your working life other than quit and go find some other crap job, if you can find one, then I don’t see a whole lot of difference between that and any of a variety of non-chattel serf arrangements.
That isn’t freedom. It isn’t liberty. Not in any practical, real-world sense.
And an enormous number of related problems flow from things like that.
It’s not sustainable for us to continue with the levels of inequity that we live with now. Not without re-thinking what our social contract is, and means. Those inequities manifest themselves economically, across gender lines, across racial lines, across geographic lines.
If the liberties we claim to provide to our people are merely hypothetical, then we aren’t who we think we are. And who we actually are is not sustainable. Things will break.
Not widespread civil war, just a profound failure of trust and confidence in the social fabric. That will have real consequences, for real people.
Not civil war, just the thwarting of a lot of lives.
It’s not like we don’t have the resources to address this. We are simply unable, IMO, to find our own @sses with both hands and a flashlight. We devalue competence, and then are required to live with the consequences of that.
I’m looking forward to Trump’s exit in November, and I’m hoping that the (D)’s keep the house and flip the Senate. And I’ll be contributing to that effort, in a variety of ways.
But I don’t expect a thousand flowers to magically bloom if and when that happens. There is a giant crap-ton of rot that will take a couple of generations to clean up, and we’re not really good at maintaining focus for those kinds of time spans.
That’s how things look to me.
Things will break.
Not widespread civil war, just a profound failure of trust and confidence in the social fabric.
In many ways, this is the origin of the Trump phenomena. A profound failure (with cause) of trust. Unfortunately, the guy who exploited that failure of trust to win power was even more massively untrustworthy than the folks who created the problem. Not to mention being in bed with them. So the problem has gotten worse.
But sooner or later, probably sooner, an actual reformer will repeat that takeover of a party. And we will see the sort of radical reconstruction of the social and economic environment that we saw with the New Deal, and before that with the Progressives.
It probably won’t look much like what today’s self-styled “progressives” want. But it won’t be much like what we’ve got currently either. I know what I’d like the result to look like. But I have no good idea what can be sold to the voting public — who are both profoundly unhappy with the status quo and quite conservative in their outlook on life.
Things will break.
Not widespread civil war, just a profound failure of trust and confidence in the social fabric.
In many ways, this is the origin of the Trump phenomena. A profound failure (with cause) of trust. Unfortunately, the guy who exploited that failure of trust to win power was even more massively untrustworthy than the folks who created the problem. Not to mention being in bed with them. So the problem has gotten worse.
But sooner or later, probably sooner, an actual reformer will repeat that takeover of a party. And we will see the sort of radical reconstruction of the social and economic environment that we saw with the New Deal, and before that with the Progressives.
It probably won’t look much like what today’s self-styled “progressives” want. But it won’t be much like what we’ve got currently either. I know what I’d like the result to look like. But I have no good idea what can be sold to the voting public — who are both profoundly unhappy with the status quo and quite conservative in their outlook on life.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/china-says-were-a-joke-and-alas-we-are
That’s gonna leave a mark…
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/china-says-were-a-joke-and-alas-we-are
That’s gonna leave a mark…
That’s gonna leave a mark…
Given the current GOP talking point, I’d guess that it enrages Trump, but that as soon as it spreads, the RWM will begin to use it as justification for Trump’s claim that China wants him gone and that libtards are spreading Chinese propaganda just like they falsely claimed the Russians had done last time for Trump.
Look, Biden is a Red!
Two minutes of hate later, the polls will not have budged.
The GOP has always been at war with Eastasia.
That’s gonna leave a mark…
Given the current GOP talking point, I’d guess that it enrages Trump, but that as soon as it spreads, the RWM will begin to use it as justification for Trump’s claim that China wants him gone and that libtards are spreading Chinese propaganda just like they falsely claimed the Russians had done last time for Trump.
Look, Biden is a Red!
Two minutes of hate later, the polls will not have budged.
The GOP has always been at war with Eastasia.
“Which brings us back to this video which I find both hilarious and mortifying.”
And a bit childish for “the official state news service of the People’s Republic of China.” More than one government with “the behavior of five year olds”
“Which brings us back to this video which I find both hilarious and mortifying.”
And a bit childish for “the official state news service of the People’s Republic of China.” More than one government with “the behavior of five year olds”
China has always been at war with the US, all of my life. We just react. The authoritarian, oppressive regime provides them immunity from meaningful internal criticism. Yet, we should somehow worry about their view of us? Couldnt give a shit less.
We dont have a clue how long they knew there was a problem, thus how long before they told the world. We had no idea that this would be more meaningful than SARS or Ebola, the concept that any organization or set of individuals had more than a few week headstart on that understanding is completely revisionist.
The extent to which it was universally underestimated is evident in the numbers. The most impacted states to date are all centers of medical knowledge, the best in the country. They were completely unprepared, the state emergency management teams, and governors, in these centers of medical understanding reacted no quicker than the feds.
Some reacted weeks after the risks were obvious.
These are troubled times, but to worry about what China thinks about us, or in fact anyone outside the country, is to pander to those looking for any way to diminish their enemy, or their rival at a minimum.
We are exceptional at navel gazing, and worrying about what the neighbors think, criticizing our neighbors and general self immolation.
China has always been at war with the US, all of my life. We just react. The authoritarian, oppressive regime provides them immunity from meaningful internal criticism. Yet, we should somehow worry about their view of us? Couldnt give a shit less.
We dont have a clue how long they knew there was a problem, thus how long before they told the world. We had no idea that this would be more meaningful than SARS or Ebola, the concept that any organization or set of individuals had more than a few week headstart on that understanding is completely revisionist.
The extent to which it was universally underestimated is evident in the numbers. The most impacted states to date are all centers of medical knowledge, the best in the country. They were completely unprepared, the state emergency management teams, and governors, in these centers of medical understanding reacted no quicker than the feds.
Some reacted weeks after the risks were obvious.
These are troubled times, but to worry about what China thinks about us, or in fact anyone outside the country, is to pander to those looking for any way to diminish their enemy, or their rival at a minimum.
We are exceptional at navel gazing, and worrying about what the neighbors think, criticizing our neighbors and general self immolation.
We had no idea that this would be more meaningful than SARS or Ebola, the concept that any organization or set of individuals had more than a few week headstart on that understanding is completely revisionist.
You’re hilarious. This is an article about what Trump did starting January 31. (By Chinese New Year – January 25, China was locking down travel, which meant that everyone – not just intelligence agencies, but anyone who knows someone living in China, including me – knew that this was serious.)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/20/what-trump-did-about-coronavirus-february/
Please don’t be the joke that China is telling.
We had no idea that this would be more meaningful than SARS or Ebola, the concept that any organization or set of individuals had more than a few week headstart on that understanding is completely revisionist.
You’re hilarious. This is an article about what Trump did starting January 31. (By Chinese New Year – January 25, China was locking down travel, which meant that everyone – not just intelligence agencies, but anyone who knows someone living in China, including me – knew that this was serious.)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/20/what-trump-did-about-coronavirus-february/
Please don’t be the joke that China is telling.
Taiwan, who is not a member of the WHO, reported to the WHO on December 31st that there was evidence of person to person transmission of the virus. That was at least two weeks before the WHO announced that there was person to person transmission. But, then, the WHO only deals with and pays attention to the Chinese central government, not some minor province of China.
Taiwan, who is not a member of the WHO, reported to the WHO on December 31st that there was evidence of person to person transmission of the virus. That was at least two weeks before the WHO announced that there was person to person transmission. But, then, the WHO only deals with and pays attention to the Chinese central government, not some minor province of China.
Charles, it’s not like we have a relationship with Taiwan or anything!
Y’all are great. We had no choice but to be dumb!
Charles, it’s not like we have a relationship with Taiwan or anything!
Y’all are great. We had no choice but to be dumb!
In many ways, this is the origin of the Trump phenomena.
Trump is the embodiment of it.
A profound failure (with cause) of trust.
I agree with this, but I suspect that it would be hard to find a consensus on what the substance of the breach of trust is, or was.
Without a common understanding of causes, you can’t find a common understanding of what solutions are.
But sooner or later, probably sooner, an actual reformer will repeat that takeover of a party.
That might happen. Or, it might not.
But I have no good idea what can be sold to the voting public — who are both profoundly unhappy with the status quo and quite conservative in their outlook on life.
Conservative in what way?
People don’t like their personal worlds to be disrupted. That’s a conservative outlook. It’s unclear to me whether that is a constructive or useful thing, or not.
In many ways, this is the origin of the Trump phenomena.
Trump is the embodiment of it.
A profound failure (with cause) of trust.
I agree with this, but I suspect that it would be hard to find a consensus on what the substance of the breach of trust is, or was.
Without a common understanding of causes, you can’t find a common understanding of what solutions are.
But sooner or later, probably sooner, an actual reformer will repeat that takeover of a party.
That might happen. Or, it might not.
But I have no good idea what can be sold to the voting public — who are both profoundly unhappy with the status quo and quite conservative in their outlook on life.
Conservative in what way?
People don’t like their personal worlds to be disrupted. That’s a conservative outlook. It’s unclear to me whether that is a constructive or useful thing, or not.
It was certainly serious in China at that point. Completely unclear to what extent it was a threat here. We reacted by trying to isolate the perceived source, again no one really thought much about it, seemed a logical step.
The step from there to “we should be social distancing” much less shelter in place, would have certainly been perceived as an overreaction. “We should be stockpiling PPE and ventilators” wasnt even an idea.
Not that someone might not have actually said it, it just wasn’t an imminent threat and the potential damage was still being determined.
All government is likely to be slow to react, as every one except perhaps South Korea was. It’s the reality we live with in a world where those calls are hard to make. I think intelligent, thoughtful leaders should have sheltered us in place on March 9. Only because that’s the day I self sheltered in place, told my colleagues they should and notified my clients I would be working remote until further notice. So I was 11 days ahead of Charlie Baker,but it was because I only had to decide for 1 high risk person, me.
Testing, tracing and quarantine was a pipe dream here. There is no infrastructure in place to effectively do that. When the CDC test didnt work that window was missed anyway and we’ve been struggling to figure that out, progress is being made but it is now just to create a trailing indicator and enable some more accurate mortality figures.
Rambling on, the most effective thing we can do now is what OSHA is working on, workplace safety rules to minimize risk. Enable businesses and local governments to open based on risk mitigation steps.
There’s more but I’ve run out of outrage long ago so I’m probably repeating myself.
Be safe.
It was certainly serious in China at that point. Completely unclear to what extent it was a threat here. We reacted by trying to isolate the perceived source, again no one really thought much about it, seemed a logical step.
The step from there to “we should be social distancing” much less shelter in place, would have certainly been perceived as an overreaction. “We should be stockpiling PPE and ventilators” wasnt even an idea.
Not that someone might not have actually said it, it just wasn’t an imminent threat and the potential damage was still being determined.
All government is likely to be slow to react, as every one except perhaps South Korea was. It’s the reality we live with in a world where those calls are hard to make. I think intelligent, thoughtful leaders should have sheltered us in place on March 9. Only because that’s the day I self sheltered in place, told my colleagues they should and notified my clients I would be working remote until further notice. So I was 11 days ahead of Charlie Baker,but it was because I only had to decide for 1 high risk person, me.
Testing, tracing and quarantine was a pipe dream here. There is no infrastructure in place to effectively do that. When the CDC test didnt work that window was missed anyway and we’ve been struggling to figure that out, progress is being made but it is now just to create a trailing indicator and enable some more accurate mortality figures.
Rambling on, the most effective thing we can do now is what OSHA is working on, workplace safety rules to minimize risk. Enable businesses and local governments to open based on risk mitigation steps.
There’s more but I’ve run out of outrage long ago so I’m probably repeating myself.
Be safe.
workplace safety rules to minimize risk.
Here’s the thing.
If OSHA says, everybody stay 6 feet apart and wear a mask, that might minimize risk, but will not eliminate it. Because anyone who goes grocery shopping knows that some people are compliant, and some aren’t. And anybody who has worked a crap job, ever, knows that some employers are compliant, and some not so much.
If OSHA says do these things, and risk will be minimized to an acceptable level, then whatever public policy is in place requiring non-essential businesses from opening will be lifted. When those are lifted, people who don’t want to return to work because they don’t want to run the risk will be considered to have quit voluntarily.
If they are considered to quit voluntarily, they will be ineligible for unemployment benefits. They will lose whatever employer-provided health insurance they have.
Who is that effective for?
‘Enable …. to open’ sounds great. Requiring people to return to work when we still don’t really understand that much about the virus, don’t have an effective protocol for treatment, and are still probably year away from a vaccine, is not really the same thing as ‘enable’.
workplace safety rules to minimize risk.
Here’s the thing.
If OSHA says, everybody stay 6 feet apart and wear a mask, that might minimize risk, but will not eliminate it. Because anyone who goes grocery shopping knows that some people are compliant, and some aren’t. And anybody who has worked a crap job, ever, knows that some employers are compliant, and some not so much.
If OSHA says do these things, and risk will be minimized to an acceptable level, then whatever public policy is in place requiring non-essential businesses from opening will be lifted. When those are lifted, people who don’t want to return to work because they don’t want to run the risk will be considered to have quit voluntarily.
If they are considered to quit voluntarily, they will be ineligible for unemployment benefits. They will lose whatever employer-provided health insurance they have.
Who is that effective for?
‘Enable …. to open’ sounds great. Requiring people to return to work when we still don’t really understand that much about the virus, don’t have an effective protocol for treatment, and are still probably year away from a vaccine, is not really the same thing as ‘enable’.
Completely unclear to what extent it was a threat here. We reacted by trying to isolate the perceived source, again no one really thought much about it, seemed a logical step.
This is your surmise. But the Trump policy was “screw virus intelligence” before this even happened: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/04/07/trump-dismantled-the-very-jobs-meant-to-stop-the-covid-19-epidemic-173347
Sure, Marty. “Be safe” yourself. Nice that we have to all cross our fingers, knock on wood and put cross signs over the vampire.
the most effective thing we can do now is what OSHA is working on, workplace safety rules to minimize risk. Enable businesses and local governments to open based on risk mitigation steps.
No, actually, the most effective thing is to stay home, and vote for Democrats.
Completely unclear to what extent it was a threat here. We reacted by trying to isolate the perceived source, again no one really thought much about it, seemed a logical step.
This is your surmise. But the Trump policy was “screw virus intelligence” before this even happened: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/04/07/trump-dismantled-the-very-jobs-meant-to-stop-the-covid-19-epidemic-173347
Sure, Marty. “Be safe” yourself. Nice that we have to all cross our fingers, knock on wood and put cross signs over the vampire.
the most effective thing we can do now is what OSHA is working on, workplace safety rules to minimize risk. Enable businesses and local governments to open based on risk mitigation steps.
No, actually, the most effective thing is to stay home, and vote for Democrats.
Not ideal russell, but there is 20 – 30 million people out of a job now, more will follow. When is the damage too much? 50% unemployment? In California they are doing exactly what you are saying for manufacturing and distribution businesses deemed critical. I talked to two today that are going from 1 to 3 shifts to get the workers distanced. And they are hiring to fill the third shift.
Here’s the thing, I think people who refuse to go back should get unemployment for 13 weeks or whatever. They certainly are not going back to the job they had. But they will have to find a job eventually and not a year.
From what I am seeing, the protocols for treating the virus are better and improving. The actual number of cases will continue going up for months, as we roll out more testing, but the mortality rate will continue to come down.
Regardless of where we are on the curve when things become more generally open, these workplace steps will be a good idea, if not a continuing requirement. So having people working on them is important.
.
Not ideal russell, but there is 20 – 30 million people out of a job now, more will follow. When is the damage too much? 50% unemployment? In California they are doing exactly what you are saying for manufacturing and distribution businesses deemed critical. I talked to two today that are going from 1 to 3 shifts to get the workers distanced. And they are hiring to fill the third shift.
Here’s the thing, I think people who refuse to go back should get unemployment for 13 weeks or whatever. They certainly are not going back to the job they had. But they will have to find a job eventually and not a year.
From what I am seeing, the protocols for treating the virus are better and improving. The actual number of cases will continue going up for months, as we roll out more testing, but the mortality rate will continue to come down.
Regardless of where we are on the curve when things become more generally open, these workplace steps will be a good idea, if not a continuing requirement. So having people working on them is important.
.
i like that we’re blaming China while we have what might be the worst record of dealing with C19 in the entire fucking world. the GOP is a blame-casting, responsibility-denying machine. nothing is their fault. not even Trump. not even Mr “go inject some bleach, maybe?”
China closed down a city of 11M. and then a whole province. they were slow? at least they tried.
Sweden looked at the problem and said “nah. let’s do it wrong”, and they’re paying for it with a projected GDP loss greater than our own. and American “conservatives” are like “YEAH LET’S DO THAT!”
but at least they made a decision.
the US had no real federal response. and the President made the situation worse by treating it as a campaign opportunity and a way to enrich his grifter brethren – with the GOP and their official propaganda network cheering him on, as usual.
NYC did it wrong for too long. the states have been figuring it out on their own, while literally evading the federal government’s response, which is led by Trump’s son-in-law in order to get medical supplies.
the GOP deserves to lose every seat it has, everywhere, and to disappear into the medical waste bin of history – incinerated like leftover moles and bloody C19-covered bedclothes. what a joke of a party. what a colossal fucking inept nihilistic disaster. the GOP and its propaganda network are everything that’s wrong with the US. top to bottom, soup to nuts, slight fever to pink foamy lung discharge.
China? fuck you and your “China” bullshit.
take some goddamned responsibility! you want to run the country? THEN RUN IT! WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR
fuck the GOP. and fuck it’s cult members.
i like that we’re blaming China while we have what might be the worst record of dealing with C19 in the entire fucking world. the GOP is a blame-casting, responsibility-denying machine. nothing is their fault. not even Trump. not even Mr “go inject some bleach, maybe?”
China closed down a city of 11M. and then a whole province. they were slow? at least they tried.
Sweden looked at the problem and said “nah. let’s do it wrong”, and they’re paying for it with a projected GDP loss greater than our own. and American “conservatives” are like “YEAH LET’S DO THAT!”
but at least they made a decision.
the US had no real federal response. and the President made the situation worse by treating it as a campaign opportunity and a way to enrich his grifter brethren – with the GOP and their official propaganda network cheering him on, as usual.
NYC did it wrong for too long. the states have been figuring it out on their own, while literally evading the federal government’s response, which is led by Trump’s son-in-law in order to get medical supplies.
the GOP deserves to lose every seat it has, everywhere, and to disappear into the medical waste bin of history – incinerated like leftover moles and bloody C19-covered bedclothes. what a joke of a party. what a colossal fucking inept nihilistic disaster. the GOP and its propaganda network are everything that’s wrong with the US. top to bottom, soup to nuts, slight fever to pink foamy lung discharge.
China? fuck you and your “China” bullshit.
take some goddamned responsibility! you want to run the country? THEN RUN IT! WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR
fuck the GOP. and fuck it’s cult members.
Jefferson:
Marty:
I’m inclined to young Tom’s POV instead of old Marty’s, but that’s just me.
–TP
Jefferson:
Marty:
I’m inclined to young Tom’s POV instead of old Marty’s, but that’s just me.
–TP
Nobody whatsoever disagrees with OSHA or whoever trying to figure out how to make workplaces safe. Because no matter what, some people are still going to have to work, even if only in essential businesses.
Yes, in MA, and NY, and literally everyplace in the country, they are doing exactly what I’m saying for businesses deemed critical. Because the businesses are deemed critical.
20-30 million people unemployed is a hell of a lot of people. 30mm is about 20% of the workforce. Pay them to stay home. It’s barely been a month since lockdown of non-essential businesses started. We can find trillions to backstop FED loans to corps, we can find money to pay people stay home for more than a month.
You think folks who refuse to go back should get 13 weeks. I’d make it longer, but whatever. They won’t get 13 weeks. They might in NY or MA or CA, they won’t in IA or TX or similar.
This isn’t the time to be opening non-essential businesses. It’s certainly not the time to be making people choose between returning to jobs in non-essential businesses or getting cut off from any public assistance.
Nobody whatsoever disagrees with OSHA or whoever trying to figure out how to make workplaces safe. Because no matter what, some people are still going to have to work, even if only in essential businesses.
Yes, in MA, and NY, and literally everyplace in the country, they are doing exactly what I’m saying for businesses deemed critical. Because the businesses are deemed critical.
20-30 million people unemployed is a hell of a lot of people. 30mm is about 20% of the workforce. Pay them to stay home. It’s barely been a month since lockdown of non-essential businesses started. We can find trillions to backstop FED loans to corps, we can find money to pay people stay home for more than a month.
You think folks who refuse to go back should get 13 weeks. I’d make it longer, but whatever. They won’t get 13 weeks. They might in NY or MA or CA, they won’t in IA or TX or similar.
This isn’t the time to be opening non-essential businesses. It’s certainly not the time to be making people choose between returning to jobs in non-essential businesses or getting cut off from any public assistance.
I agree with this, but I suspect that it would be hard to find a consensus on what the substance of the breach of trust is, or was.
Without a common understanding of causes, you can’t find a common understanding of what solutions are.
Perhaps the place to start would be what the trust was. That is, what did who trust whom to do? Once we’ve got that, the breach should become clearer.
Conservative in what way?
People don’t like their personal worlds to be disrupted. That’s a conservative outlook. It’s unclear to me whether that is a constructive or useful thing, or not.
How useful it is, and in what circumstances, can be debated. But for our discussion, it’s sufficient to recognize that it is. And that it will influence which changes, and how big, they will accept when addressing the situation they are unhappy with.
I agree with this, but I suspect that it would be hard to find a consensus on what the substance of the breach of trust is, or was.
Without a common understanding of causes, you can’t find a common understanding of what solutions are.
Perhaps the place to start would be what the trust was. That is, what did who trust whom to do? Once we’ve got that, the breach should become clearer.
Conservative in what way?
People don’t like their personal worlds to be disrupted. That’s a conservative outlook. It’s unclear to me whether that is a constructive or useful thing, or not.
How useful it is, and in what circumstances, can be debated. But for our discussion, it’s sufficient to recognize that it is. And that it will influence which changes, and how big, they will accept when addressing the situation they are unhappy with.
Tony, I would to if I were going to write a declaration of independence.
But I’m not, nor am I blaming China. We just dont know jack about what really happened there so i dont really want to hear about it.
There is no more effective propaganda machine today than that on the left. Every point in cleeks 10:19 is right out of that machine, and It took one day of GA opening until every argument was about losing unemployment.
No one had even gone back to work yet. No one had been offered a job. Most of these employees weren’t furloughed, they were let go. They arent under any obligation to take a job with their old employer. Yet unemployment is the talking point of the week.
Everyone has a bubble they live in these days. I try to make sure I step out of mine. But. Like most people I like arguments that support my thinking.
Tony, I would to if I were going to write a declaration of independence.
But I’m not, nor am I blaming China. We just dont know jack about what really happened there so i dont really want to hear about it.
There is no more effective propaganda machine today than that on the left. Every point in cleeks 10:19 is right out of that machine, and It took one day of GA opening until every argument was about losing unemployment.
No one had even gone back to work yet. No one had been offered a job. Most of these employees weren’t furloughed, they were let go. They arent under any obligation to take a job with their old employer. Yet unemployment is the talking point of the week.
Everyone has a bubble they live in these days. I try to make sure I step out of mine. But. Like most people I like arguments that support my thinking.
US graphs in “For hsh” thread have been updated to 4/30. The revised UK numbers will have to wait.
If I had more time, I’d to try to comment on the US curve. But in the face of lack of time and energy for what would probably be a futile effort anyhow, “what cleek said” just about covers it.
US graphs in “For hsh” thread have been updated to 4/30. The revised UK numbers will have to wait.
If I had more time, I’d to try to comment on the US curve. But in the face of lack of time and energy for what would probably be a futile effort anyhow, “what cleek said” just about covers it.
We just dont know jack about what really happened there so i dont really want to hear about it.
We know a huge amount. Read the timeline. Obviously you won’t because you “don’t want to hear about it.” Fine. Alternative facts.
We just dont know jack about what really happened there so i dont really want to hear about it.
We know a huge amount. Read the timeline. Obviously you won’t because you “don’t want to hear about it.” Fine. Alternative facts.
I’ve read the timeline but there is no credible information out of China. There story chabged weekly. So my only point about China is their opinion of us is irrelevant.
I’ve read the timeline but there is no credible information out of China. There story chabged weekly. So my only point about China is their opinion of us is irrelevant.
There is no more effective propaganda machine today than that on the left.
Thus demonstrating the overwhelming effectiveness of the RWNJ propaganda machine. Seriously, nothing on the left comes close to Fox/Limbaugh. The left started first, but they’ve been left in the dust.
There is no more effective propaganda machine today than that on the left.
Thus demonstrating the overwhelming effectiveness of the RWNJ propaganda machine. Seriously, nothing on the left comes close to Fox/Limbaugh. The left started first, but they’ve been left in the dust.
Yet unemployment is the talking point of the week.
As you note, 20-30mm people are out of work.
Unemployment seems to be on point.
Yet unemployment is the talking point of the week.
As you note, 20-30mm people are out of work.
Unemployment seems to be on point.
There story chabged weekly.
But our story is what the timeline describes.
There story chabged weekly.
But our story is what the timeline describes.
This just in from 24 Hours of Lemons:
Hey, at least you can get the acronym cheap (albeit used).
This just in from 24 Hours of Lemons:
Hey, at least you can get the acronym cheap (albeit used).
When is the damage too much?
There are well known and effective ways to deal with the “damage” of mass unemployment. Refucklicans hide their heads in the sand and pretend nobody knows what they are.
So much for the economics…our question to you is this: When is the damage from the massive pile of dead bodies too much, oh great arbiters of bright moral red lines?
For the GOP, the means justify the ends. Don’t let anybody tell you different.
When is the damage too much?
There are well known and effective ways to deal with the “damage” of mass unemployment. Refucklicans hide their heads in the sand and pretend nobody knows what they are.
So much for the economics…our question to you is this: When is the damage from the massive pile of dead bodies too much, oh great arbiters of bright moral red lines?
For the GOP, the means justify the ends. Don’t let anybody tell you different.
wj,
The change from Barack Obama to He, Trump was a big fucking change that a “conservative” electorate sorta voted for. It could have been out of sheer stupidity, I suppose, but it could also be that the American electorate is not as “conservative” about “changes it will accept” as you think.
Marty,
Once you’ve made it clear to the world that you don’t care what it thinks of you, writing a Declaration of Independence would be pointless wankery. I mean, who would you address it to?
–TP
wj,
The change from Barack Obama to He, Trump was a big fucking change that a “conservative” electorate sorta voted for. It could have been out of sheer stupidity, I suppose, but it could also be that the American electorate is not as “conservative” about “changes it will accept” as you think.
Marty,
Once you’ve made it clear to the world that you don’t care what it thinks of you, writing a Declaration of Independence would be pointless wankery. I mean, who would you address it to?
–TP
There is no more effective propaganda machine today than that on the left.
LOL. One can only wish.
Every point in cleeks 10:19 is right
out of that machineFixed.
There is no more effective propaganda machine today than that on the left.
LOL. One can only wish.
Every point in cleeks 10:19 is right
out of that machineFixed.
Tony it would have to be someone I was declaring independence from? Just spitballing.
Tony it would have to be someone I was declaring independence from? Just spitballing.
Tony, the optics changed drastically. But how much change did we actually experience in things like income distribution or social mobility or the legislation coming thru the Senate?
Tony, the optics changed drastically. But how much change did we actually experience in things like income distribution or social mobility or the legislation coming thru the Senate?
wj – I think that the change is more than optics, though I agree that all of the things you list were already serious problems.
What Trump did was take a whole lot of people who were the political equivalent of gang-affiliated and jumped them all in. Kavanaugh, Puerto Rico, the China tariffs destroying our ag markets, Russian interference, children in cages, etc.. Every one of those things dragged the right – particularly the evangelical right – further over the line. They were put in a position where they had to choose loyalty or principles and the majority of them pulled the political trigger.
Collective guilt is a powerful thing. It leaves the person with no alternative narrative to return to.
That’s how people are radicalized.
And that’s where we are.
wj – I think that the change is more than optics, though I agree that all of the things you list were already serious problems.
What Trump did was take a whole lot of people who were the political equivalent of gang-affiliated and jumped them all in. Kavanaugh, Puerto Rico, the China tariffs destroying our ag markets, Russian interference, children in cages, etc.. Every one of those things dragged the right – particularly the evangelical right – further over the line. They were put in a position where they had to choose loyalty or principles and the majority of them pulled the political trigger.
Collective guilt is a powerful thing. It leaves the person with no alternative narrative to return to.
That’s how people are radicalized.
And that’s where we are.
Collective guilt is a powerful thing. It leaves the person with no alternative narrative to return to.
nous, I would share that depressing view, except for one thing. All those folks have been exhibiting an impressive ability to edit their memories. So I think it entirely possible that they could redact the past few years’ embarrassing behavior. Like it never happened; flat deny that they ever did the things that they manifestly have been doing.
They may not be quite as adept at it as Trump. But then, they wouldn’t have to contend with all those hours of video evidence. Not to mention that a lot of us would be sufficiently relieved at them coming to their senses that we would refrain from gratuitously throwing their mistakes in their faces. Even when evidence exists.
In short, they could create (out of whole cloth) an alternate narrative to return to. One where other people were guilty of supporting the unjustifiable. But they, personally, were always on the side of the angels. NeverTrumpers every one. Then.
Collective guilt is a powerful thing. It leaves the person with no alternative narrative to return to.
nous, I would share that depressing view, except for one thing. All those folks have been exhibiting an impressive ability to edit their memories. So I think it entirely possible that they could redact the past few years’ embarrassing behavior. Like it never happened; flat deny that they ever did the things that they manifestly have been doing.
They may not be quite as adept at it as Trump. But then, they wouldn’t have to contend with all those hours of video evidence. Not to mention that a lot of us would be sufficiently relieved at them coming to their senses that we would refrain from gratuitously throwing their mistakes in their faces. Even when evidence exists.
In short, they could create (out of whole cloth) an alternate narrative to return to. One where other people were guilty of supporting the unjustifiable. But they, personally, were always on the side of the angels. NeverTrumpers every one. Then.
Nobody whatsoever disagrees with OSHA or whoever trying to figure out how to make workplaces safe.
Except for those that consider the very existence of OSHA to be in violation of what(so)ever. E.g. those that make even asking about OSHA compliance a firing offence (certain coal executives come to mind).
Nobody whatsoever disagrees with OSHA or whoever trying to figure out how to make workplaces safe.
Except for those that consider the very existence of OSHA to be in violation of what(so)ever. E.g. those that make even asking about OSHA compliance a firing offence (certain coal executives come to mind).
Or to be more harsh, there are people that wax nostalgic about the times when workplace accidents could be blamed on the workers allowing to withhold their pay or even fine them for the damage they did to the business.
Or to be more harsh, there are people that wax nostalgic about the times when workplace accidents could be blamed on the workers allowing to withhold their pay or even fine them for the damage they did to the business.
And a bit childish for “the official state news service of the People’s Republic of China.” More than one government with “the behavior of five year olds”
Well, if a 5 year old is right, they are right. And failing to understand how social media works around the world will bite you on the ass.
As Josh Marshall notes:
“We” is really our national government, the Trump administration. But for the moment it’s the only national government we have and it’s calling the shots. As the closing puts it “Gosh!! Just listen to yourself.” Perhaps most tellingly, with perhaps the greatest longterm repercussions, the Trump administration has failed so badly, so accurately modeled the behavior of five year olds that we’ve gone a decent way toward discrediting the model of civic democracy and the rule of law we should be supporting at home and around the world. We’ve done about as good a job as one could imagine telling the story that maybe the authoritarians just handle things better.
And a bit childish for “the official state news service of the People’s Republic of China.” More than one government with “the behavior of five year olds”
Well, if a 5 year old is right, they are right. And failing to understand how social media works around the world will bite you on the ass.
As Josh Marshall notes:
“We” is really our national government, the Trump administration. But for the moment it’s the only national government we have and it’s calling the shots. As the closing puts it “Gosh!! Just listen to yourself.” Perhaps most tellingly, with perhaps the greatest longterm repercussions, the Trump administration has failed so badly, so accurately modeled the behavior of five year olds that we’ve gone a decent way toward discrediting the model of civic democracy and the rule of law we should be supporting at home and around the world. We’ve done about as good a job as one could imagine telling the story that maybe the authoritarians just handle things better.
What lj said. And what cleek said @ 10.16. And on the question of what the world thinks of you, Trump and his base have obviously thought it important enough to continually assert how much more “the world” respects you since he came to power. Words are inadequate to express how laughable this assertion is, and how serious are the repercussions of it, as opposed to the damage that has been done domestically, we shall have to wait and see. But as far as the Chinese cartoon goes, with the exception of the concentration camps thing as Josh Marshall says, I am more than sorry to say it is an absolutely accurate picture of what has been emanating from the Trump White House, which, for better or worse, represents America.
What lj said. And what cleek said @ 10.16. And on the question of what the world thinks of you, Trump and his base have obviously thought it important enough to continually assert how much more “the world” respects you since he came to power. Words are inadequate to express how laughable this assertion is, and how serious are the repercussions of it, as opposed to the damage that has been done domestically, we shall have to wait and see. But as far as the Chinese cartoon goes, with the exception of the concentration camps thing as Josh Marshall says, I am more than sorry to say it is an absolutely accurate picture of what has been emanating from the Trump White House, which, for better or worse, represents America.
But what is really terrifying about Marty @08.46 and @09.32 is how effective the rightwing propaganda machine is at convincing so much of the American public that the administration’s response has been somewhere between reasonable, good and excellent. A friend said to me yesterday she’s sure Jackass will be reelected. I was startled, because I’ve been indulging in wishful thinking, but actually maybe she’s right. russell has been saying so for a long time. No-one ever went broke….etc etc mutatis mutandis.
But what is really terrifying about Marty @08.46 and @09.32 is how effective the rightwing propaganda machine is at convincing so much of the American public that the administration’s response has been somewhere between reasonable, good and excellent. A friend said to me yesterday she’s sure Jackass will be reelected. I was startled, because I’ve been indulging in wishful thinking, but actually maybe she’s right. russell has been saying so for a long time. No-one ever went broke….etc etc mutatis mutandis.
and It took one day of GA opening until every argument was about losing unemployment
it has been widely known that “unemployment’ was precisely what GA’s ‘re-opening’ was all about, for weeks.
maybe you just started listening.
and It took one day of GA opening until every argument was about losing unemployment
it has been widely known that “unemployment’ was precisely what GA’s ‘re-opening’ was all about, for weeks.
maybe you just started listening.
me: why are there all these kids out and about in stores, unmasked, running around being kids, touching stuff, screaming, etc?? what parent would bring their kids out into this?
Fox News Headline [Carlson] : There’s no evidence kids under 10 can spread the virus!
Fox News [Actual doctor] : No, that’s wrong
mystery solved, i guess.
fuck the GOP and it’s cult of idiots.
me: why are there all these kids out and about in stores, unmasked, running around being kids, touching stuff, screaming, etc?? what parent would bring their kids out into this?
Fox News Headline [Carlson] : There’s no evidence kids under 10 can spread the virus!
Fox News [Actual doctor] : No, that’s wrong
mystery solved, i guess.
fuck the GOP and it’s cult of idiots.
I’ll try this once more. Just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean they have been bamboozled by some propaganda machine.
I know very few conservatives that dont criticize Trump for specific things. Some fanatics, sure.
I think we could have done things differently, but the constant accusation that the GOP murdered a bunch of people is ridiculous and unhelpful.
Also, the constant attacking of Trump for stupid things forces people like me to defend specific things, then we get accused of being Trumpies. Which we arent.
All that said, I understand that people disagree with me. I can repeat the accusation back that it’s the left’s propaganda machine that drives that, which I did in this thread. Or I can just accept that some people look at the facts, the same facts that I’m looking at, and come to a different conclusion than I do.
I usually opt for the second. Not always, but I try.
cleek: the Swiss government declared children under 10 dont have the receptors to get the virus, thus not being able to pass it on. and reopened schools
I dont know what Carlson said, but he didnt just make that up.
I’ll try this once more. Just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean they have been bamboozled by some propaganda machine.
I know very few conservatives that dont criticize Trump for specific things. Some fanatics, sure.
I think we could have done things differently, but the constant accusation that the GOP murdered a bunch of people is ridiculous and unhelpful.
Also, the constant attacking of Trump for stupid things forces people like me to defend specific things, then we get accused of being Trumpies. Which we arent.
All that said, I understand that people disagree with me. I can repeat the accusation back that it’s the left’s propaganda machine that drives that, which I did in this thread. Or I can just accept that some people look at the facts, the same facts that I’m looking at, and come to a different conclusion than I do.
I usually opt for the second. Not always, but I try.
cleek: the Swiss government declared children under 10 dont have the receptors to get the virus, thus not being able to pass it on. and reopened schools
I dont know what Carlson said, but he didnt just make that up.
I love “widely known”. Geirgua dudnt even shut down until a few weeks ago.
I love “widely known”. Geirgua dudnt even shut down until a few weeks ago.
I dont know what Carlson said, but he didnt just make that up.
In Carlson’s case, probably best to find out what he said before making that assumption.
I dont know what Carlson said, but he didnt just make that up.
In Carlson’s case, probably best to find out what he said before making that assumption.
They were put in a position where they had to choose loyalty or principles and the majority of them pulled the political trigger.
Collective guilt is a powerful thing. It leaves the person with no alternative narrative to return to.
That’s how people are radicalized.
I hear that’s how 3rd world warlords confirm loyalty from their child soldiers: force them to kill a parent.
The GOP is doing the same, right now. The difference? AK-47 vs Covid-19. At least ONE of them is quick and relatively merciful.
They were put in a position where they had to choose loyalty or principles and the majority of them pulled the political trigger.
Collective guilt is a powerful thing. It leaves the person with no alternative narrative to return to.
That’s how people are radicalized.
I hear that’s how 3rd world warlords confirm loyalty from their child soldiers: force them to kill a parent.
The GOP is doing the same, right now. The difference? AK-47 vs Covid-19. At least ONE of them is quick and relatively merciful.
I know very few conservatives that dont criticize Trump for specific things.
Gallup 4/14-4/28: 93% of Republicans approve of the job he’s doing. just as they did 4/1-4/14.
“criticize Trump for specific things” is weak tea – even the most i-love of all newlyweds criticize each other for “specific things”.
every day your party is given a new opportunity to rein-in Trump. and every day you decline.
I dont know what Carlson said, but he didnt just make that up.
he”>https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1256024464967389184″>he and his headline said children under ten don’t spread it (a line he’s been pushing for a while). and he immediately brought on this doctor to talk about it. but the doctor he had on for that segment told him flatly that he was wrong. he could have asked the doctor before the segment started, and decided “Hey, maybe I won’t broadcast this misleading headline today!” but no.
I love “widely known”. Geirgua dudnt even shut down until a few weeks ago.
what’s been known is that “conservative” governors have been pushing early re-opening, in part, because they know workers won’t return to their jobs if they don’t feel safe; and that will give employers the opportunity to fire those workers and get thereby themselves off the hook for unemployment payments.
I know very few conservatives that dont criticize Trump for specific things.
Gallup 4/14-4/28: 93% of Republicans approve of the job he’s doing. just as they did 4/1-4/14.
“criticize Trump for specific things” is weak tea – even the most i-love of all newlyweds criticize each other for “specific things”.
every day your party is given a new opportunity to rein-in Trump. and every day you decline.
I dont know what Carlson said, but he didnt just make that up.
he”>https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1256024464967389184″>he and his headline said children under ten don’t spread it (a line he’s been pushing for a while). and he immediately brought on this doctor to talk about it. but the doctor he had on for that segment told him flatly that he was wrong. he could have asked the doctor before the segment started, and decided “Hey, maybe I won’t broadcast this misleading headline today!” but no.
I love “widely known”. Geirgua dudnt even shut down until a few weeks ago.
what’s been known is that “conservative” governors have been pushing early re-opening, in part, because they know workers won’t return to their jobs if they don’t feel safe; and that will give employers the opportunity to fire those workers and get thereby themselves off the hook for unemployment payments.
Marty: the Swiss government declared children under 10 dont have the receptors to get the virus
So it MUST be true, eh?
To be clear, it’s true they declared it. It’s also true that opinions differ, per the same article. But “facts” we like are always true. Reality is for wimps.
Worth noting is that Dr. Koch (apparently Switzerland’s Dr. Fauci) also advises that grandkids should nevertheless not have prolonged contact with grandma. I wonder why.
Maybe it’s true that under-10 kids “don’t have the receptors” for the virus. But neither do clothes or toys or tiny droplets of moisture in the air. I am not remotely knowledgeable enough to know whether “can’t get infected” (even if true) is the same as “can’t ferry the virus around”, so I won’t do a Carlson and embellish a small turd of “truth” into a pile of horseshit.
BTW, Marty: to assert your independence from somebody you only need to write them a letter, not publish a Declaration.
–TP
Marty: the Swiss government declared children under 10 dont have the receptors to get the virus
So it MUST be true, eh?
To be clear, it’s true they declared it. It’s also true that opinions differ, per the same article. But “facts” we like are always true. Reality is for wimps.
Worth noting is that Dr. Koch (apparently Switzerland’s Dr. Fauci) also advises that grandkids should nevertheless not have prolonged contact with grandma. I wonder why.
Maybe it’s true that under-10 kids “don’t have the receptors” for the virus. But neither do clothes or toys or tiny droplets of moisture in the air. I am not remotely knowledgeable enough to know whether “can’t get infected” (even if true) is the same as “can’t ferry the virus around”, so I won’t do a Carlson and embellish a small turd of “truth” into a pile of horseshit.
BTW, Marty: to assert your independence from somebody you only need to write them a letter, not publish a Declaration.
–TP
Marty: the Swiss government declared children under 10 dont have the receptors to get the virus
Somehow I missed this one.
Skyler Herbert.
Carlson is a propagandist. You cite him, and/or defend his statements, at risk of your own credibility.
Marty: the Swiss government declared children under 10 dont have the receptors to get the virus
Somehow I missed this one.
Skyler Herbert.
Carlson is a propagandist. You cite him, and/or defend his statements, at risk of your own credibility.
I didnt cite him I just noted a governmental authority that said the same thing, it was discussed on CNBC this morning and the doctor pretty much disagreed also.
I didnt cite him I just noted a governmental authority that said the same thing, it was discussed on CNBC this morning and the doctor pretty much disagreed also.
wj – what concerns me is not that the people on the right who Trump has dragged over the barrel will not ever find a way back. It’s not that the narrative is permanently broken. Most of them will come back, likely just as you say they will.
It will just take a lot longer than it should and they will follow the leader further than their consciences would otherwise allow until we find out what finally makes that snap.
It’s not the aftermath that I worry about, it’s the period of acquiescence mixed with denial that precedes the break.
wj – what concerns me is not that the people on the right who Trump has dragged over the barrel will not ever find a way back. It’s not that the narrative is permanently broken. Most of them will come back, likely just as you say they will.
It will just take a lot longer than it should and they will follow the leader further than their consciences would otherwise allow until we find out what finally makes that snap.
It’s not the aftermath that I worry about, it’s the period of acquiescence mixed with denial that precedes the break.
As far as pundits go, the ones who have been consistently saying unscientific – whether simply stupid or outright dangerous – things since this whole mess started are highly concentrated within Fox News and other right-wing media outlets. But that’s consistent with the quality of their coverage and commentary before the novel coronavirus was a thing, so not surprising.
But the left is mean to poor El Anaranjado. Both sides.
As far as pundits go, the ones who have been consistently saying unscientific – whether simply stupid or outright dangerous – things since this whole mess started are highly concentrated within Fox News and other right-wing media outlets. But that’s consistent with the quality of their coverage and commentary before the novel coronavirus was a thing, so not surprising.
But the left is mean to poor El Anaranjado. Both sides.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/michigan-gunmen-statehouse-coronavirus-protests-trump-working-people-a9494336.html
But Antifa and OWS!
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/michigan-gunmen-statehouse-coronavirus-protests-trump-working-people-a9494336.html
But Antifa and OWS!
I know very few conservatives that dont criticize Trump for specific things.
They like the tax cuts. They like the de-regulation. They like business-friendly judges.
In short, they like the money.
And the rest of the world can burn.
But hey, he did the best he could, right? I mean, he was briefed on pandemic preparedness when he took office, but that was Obama’s team doing the briefing, so screw that. His own administration prepared a pandemic playbook, but WTF do they know. A bunch of Chinese people got sick, well we’re not China, so who cares. Some geezers in WA were dying off, but that’s way over in the upper left hand corner, so what, me worry?
We’re something like 4% of the world’s population. We’re something like a third of the COVID-19 cases, and a quarter of deaths.
We have, we are told, the best medical care system on the planet. Somehow that is not getting the job done. We’re fncking this up, in a big way.
If you want to go back to work, go back to work. Just figure out a way to do it that doesn’t put other people at risk.
Folks that don’t want to go back to work due to the risk of exposure to the virus should not have to go back to work. Period. Not until we have an effective treatment protocol and/or a vaccine. Certainly not until effective safety protocols have been defined and demonstrated, on a per-industry basis.
If that means we pay a great big pile of money to get them to stay home, then that’s what we should do. If that means everybody’s 401k’s take a hit for the next five years, then we’ll live with it.
We lived with a bigger hit than that so the geniuses on Wall Street could play their “look Ma no risk!” games. Right?
It’s great that you think everybody who wants to stay home should get “13 weeks or whatever”. Unfortunately, you’re not going to be making the policy. People in some states will get something like that, maybe better. People in a lot of other states are not. They’re gonna get to pick between going back to work, in places that have crap records for workplace safety, or not eating.
So they’ll go back to work, and some of them will get sick and make other people sick, and some of all of those folks will die or suffer permanent physical harm.
We don’t understand the virus well enough to keep people safe, or to treat them effectively when they get sick. We don’t have sufficient testing to know who has the virus and who doesn’t.
This is not the time to “re-open the economy”.
“When is the damage too much?” goes in more than one direction.
I know very few conservatives that dont criticize Trump for specific things.
They like the tax cuts. They like the de-regulation. They like business-friendly judges.
In short, they like the money.
And the rest of the world can burn.
But hey, he did the best he could, right? I mean, he was briefed on pandemic preparedness when he took office, but that was Obama’s team doing the briefing, so screw that. His own administration prepared a pandemic playbook, but WTF do they know. A bunch of Chinese people got sick, well we’re not China, so who cares. Some geezers in WA were dying off, but that’s way over in the upper left hand corner, so what, me worry?
We’re something like 4% of the world’s population. We’re something like a third of the COVID-19 cases, and a quarter of deaths.
We have, we are told, the best medical care system on the planet. Somehow that is not getting the job done. We’re fncking this up, in a big way.
If you want to go back to work, go back to work. Just figure out a way to do it that doesn’t put other people at risk.
Folks that don’t want to go back to work due to the risk of exposure to the virus should not have to go back to work. Period. Not until we have an effective treatment protocol and/or a vaccine. Certainly not until effective safety protocols have been defined and demonstrated, on a per-industry basis.
If that means we pay a great big pile of money to get them to stay home, then that’s what we should do. If that means everybody’s 401k’s take a hit for the next five years, then we’ll live with it.
We lived with a bigger hit than that so the geniuses on Wall Street could play their “look Ma no risk!” games. Right?
It’s great that you think everybody who wants to stay home should get “13 weeks or whatever”. Unfortunately, you’re not going to be making the policy. People in some states will get something like that, maybe better. People in a lot of other states are not. They’re gonna get to pick between going back to work, in places that have crap records for workplace safety, or not eating.
So they’ll go back to work, and some of them will get sick and make other people sick, and some of all of those folks will die or suffer permanent physical harm.
We don’t understand the virus well enough to keep people safe, or to treat them effectively when they get sick. We don’t have sufficient testing to know who has the virus and who doesn’t.
This is not the time to “re-open the economy”.
“When is the damage too much?” goes in more than one direction.
Marty, I appreciate your 09.33. But it’s important to be clear. When you say
Just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean they have been bamboozled by some propaganda machine.
you are ignoring the fact that it was overwhelmingly the rightwing media in the US giving cover to Trump and his absurd lies with their casual dismissal of the threat for weeks and months, continued long past the point where the rest of the world was taking this very seriously. And they are to some extent still doing so, while he stands up there and tells his lies about the wonderful world-beating availability of testing and PPE and ventilators. Things may be getting better, Marty, but they started from a particularly low bar. And please realise, I am writing this from a country which is also being accused by many of having handled the pandemic very badly, and may well have done so.
I think we could have done things differently, but the constant accusation that the GOP murdered a bunch of people is ridiculous and unhelpful.
You (and we) could certainly have done things differently. Trump could have chosen not to disband the Pandemic Response Unit, or whatever it was called, for a start. For a decent national response, perhaps Germany will emerge as a model to emulate. I personally do not say that the GOP “murdered” a bunch of people. It is unarguable however that people have died who would not have, if competent leaders and administrators had been in charge.
Marty, I appreciate your 09.33. But it’s important to be clear. When you say
Just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean they have been bamboozled by some propaganda machine.
you are ignoring the fact that it was overwhelmingly the rightwing media in the US giving cover to Trump and his absurd lies with their casual dismissal of the threat for weeks and months, continued long past the point where the rest of the world was taking this very seriously. And they are to some extent still doing so, while he stands up there and tells his lies about the wonderful world-beating availability of testing and PPE and ventilators. Things may be getting better, Marty, but they started from a particularly low bar. And please realise, I am writing this from a country which is also being accused by many of having handled the pandemic very badly, and may well have done so.
I think we could have done things differently, but the constant accusation that the GOP murdered a bunch of people is ridiculous and unhelpful.
You (and we) could certainly have done things differently. Trump could have chosen not to disband the Pandemic Response Unit, or whatever it was called, for a start. For a decent national response, perhaps Germany will emerge as a model to emulate. I personally do not say that the GOP “murdered” a bunch of people. It is unarguable however that people have died who would not have, if competent leaders and administrators had been in charge.
And since we have been meditating on what violence in the US might look like if it comes, and we’ve been discussing the nature of the US economy and how much risk can be laden onto the small folk in order to maximize profits for the big folk…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_deaths_in_United_States_labor_disputes
To which you can probably add the Bonus Army.
Dakota Pipeline was, I think, a preview.
Well, not a preview. The Native American and African-American communities have been living in that violence all along.
And since we have been meditating on what violence in the US might look like if it comes, and we’ve been discussing the nature of the US economy and how much risk can be laden onto the small folk in order to maximize profits for the big folk…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_deaths_in_United_States_labor_disputes
To which you can probably add the Bonus Army.
Dakota Pipeline was, I think, a preview.
Well, not a preview. The Native American and African-American communities have been living in that violence all along.
We can reach pretty much any area of the world with significant if not overwhelming force…
I’m one of those who believe this will disappear sooner than expected for non-nuclear force. There are fewer places left (perhaps none?) that will let us stage for a Kuwait or Iraq land operation. I think the operational lifetime for aircraft carriers will be shorter than their design lifetime: both the Russians and the Chinese are putting substantial money into weapons projects that have “carrier killer” written all over them; the Navy is paying Boeing to build a cheap unmanned refueling drone to allow carriers to stand off farther; and the description of the new frigates announced yesterday says “missile platform to try to protect carriers.”
The overlap between places where we might want to apply overwhelming force and places where we can apply such force is shrinking. Rapidly.
We can reach pretty much any area of the world with significant if not overwhelming force…
I’m one of those who believe this will disappear sooner than expected for non-nuclear force. There are fewer places left (perhaps none?) that will let us stage for a Kuwait or Iraq land operation. I think the operational lifetime for aircraft carriers will be shorter than their design lifetime: both the Russians and the Chinese are putting substantial money into weapons projects that have “carrier killer” written all over them; the Navy is paying Boeing to build a cheap unmanned refueling drone to allow carriers to stand off farther; and the description of the new frigates announced yesterday says “missile platform to try to protect carriers.”
The overlap between places where we might want to apply overwhelming force and places where we can apply such force is shrinking. Rapidly.
Matt Taibbi probably needs to have his lefty-card yanked: https://taibbi.substack.com/p/temporary-coronavirus-censorship
For some real Yellow Peril propaganda, check out the movie “Contagion”.
You may now return to the bubble.
Matt Taibbi probably needs to have his lefty-card yanked: https://taibbi.substack.com/p/temporary-coronavirus-censorship
For some real Yellow Peril propaganda, check out the movie “Contagion”.
You may now return to the bubble.
McKinney, are you under the impression that we lefties, as you often characterise us, are apologists for the PRC?
McKinney, are you under the impression that we lefties, as you often characterise us, are apologists for the PRC?
Taibbi started on a vector orthogonal to the plane of rationality many cycles ago.
Taibbi started on a vector orthogonal to the plane of rationality many cycles ago.
McT should have his ‘I can identify who is lefty’ card yanked. Or at least pointed out that it was issued in a box of crackerjacks. Matt Taibbi is the stylistic heir of Hunter S. Thompson, which puts in him the left the same way that Michael Jordan’s foray into baseball makes him someone you want to watch deal with major league pitchers.
Of course, if you’d like to characterize my distaste of Yellow Peril rhetoric as some crypto communist reflex, well you and the horse you rode in on.
Of course, McT probably thinks Taibbi is a member of OWS because he turned his acerbic prose on Wall Street at some point, cause anyone who doesn’t believe that capitalism and private enterprise is better than any other thing bar none, they have to be an OWS stooge. It’s that kind of category error that makes it really hard to take him (McT that is) seriously. At least he doesn’t cite Tucker Carlson. Thank god for small favors.
But here are some links if you’d like to go down that road
https://jezebel.com/writers-matt-taibbi-and-mark-ames-serviced-no-one-but-t-1820007051
https://medium.com/@quinnnorton/why-ive-never-written-for-rolling-stone-e19e8a678cdf
https://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/archives/2017/10/27/twenty-years-ago-in-moscow-matt-taibbi-was-a-misogynist-asshole-and-possibly-worse
McT should have his ‘I can identify who is lefty’ card yanked. Or at least pointed out that it was issued in a box of crackerjacks. Matt Taibbi is the stylistic heir of Hunter S. Thompson, which puts in him the left the same way that Michael Jordan’s foray into baseball makes him someone you want to watch deal with major league pitchers.
Of course, if you’d like to characterize my distaste of Yellow Peril rhetoric as some crypto communist reflex, well you and the horse you rode in on.
Of course, McT probably thinks Taibbi is a member of OWS because he turned his acerbic prose on Wall Street at some point, cause anyone who doesn’t believe that capitalism and private enterprise is better than any other thing bar none, they have to be an OWS stooge. It’s that kind of category error that makes it really hard to take him (McT that is) seriously. At least he doesn’t cite Tucker Carlson. Thank god for small favors.
But here are some links if you’d like to go down that road
https://jezebel.com/writers-matt-taibbi-and-mark-ames-serviced-no-one-but-t-1820007051
https://medium.com/@quinnnorton/why-ive-never-written-for-rolling-stone-e19e8a678cdf
https://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/archives/2017/10/27/twenty-years-ago-in-moscow-matt-taibbi-was-a-misogynist-asshole-and-possibly-worse
“It will be months, at least, before we have a full accounting of pandemic casualties. For now, though, you can confidently add to that list a healthy measure of human freedom. Around the world, governments are taking advantage of the public health emergency to tighten the screws on their subjects. That’s true of the usual-suspect authoritarian regimes, but citizens of liberal democracies have also seen their liberty curtailed. And not only is it unclear how much they’ll get back once the crisis passes, it’s not obvious that everybody will even want to reclaim the freedom they’ve surrendered.”
Freedom Is a Pandemic Casualty in Authoritarian Regimes and Liberal Democracies: Around the world, governments are taking advantage of COVID-19 to tighten the screws on their subjects.
“It will be months, at least, before we have a full accounting of pandemic casualties. For now, though, you can confidently add to that list a healthy measure of human freedom. Around the world, governments are taking advantage of the public health emergency to tighten the screws on their subjects. That’s true of the usual-suspect authoritarian regimes, but citizens of liberal democracies have also seen their liberty curtailed. And not only is it unclear how much they’ll get back once the crisis passes, it’s not obvious that everybody will even want to reclaim the freedom they’ve surrendered.”
Freedom Is a Pandemic Casualty in Authoritarian Regimes and Liberal Democracies: Around the world, governments are taking advantage of COVID-19 to tighten the screws on their subjects.
For now, though, you can confidently add to that list a healthy measure of human freedom.
And whose fault is this? The more authoritarian goverments around the world or the ones that were supposed to demonstrate how things work if you have an informed populace working together to deal with a common threat. But no, if we just had some leader of whom people wouldn’t remember because they don’t do anything, everything would hae turned out for the best…
Honestly, I agree with Russell said in regard to Reason readers: why don’t they have to wear a badge so we can immediately know that their ideas are crap? I’d actually suggest a clown nose and grease paint.
For now, though, you can confidently add to that list a healthy measure of human freedom.
And whose fault is this? The more authoritarian goverments around the world or the ones that were supposed to demonstrate how things work if you have an informed populace working together to deal with a common threat. But no, if we just had some leader of whom people wouldn’t remember because they don’t do anything, everything would hae turned out for the best…
Honestly, I agree with Russell said in regard to Reason readers: why don’t they have to wear a badge so we can immediately know that their ideas are crap? I’d actually suggest a clown nose and grease paint.
GftNC, if there is a model beyond South Korea, who for reasons thet have been detailed was uniquely prepared, I havent seen it. Some numbers are better some places, but no one reacted substantially quicker than we did, and by we basically the earliest governors, which is where these battles are fought in the US.
GftNC, if there is a model beyond South Korea, who for reasons thet have been detailed was uniquely prepared, I havent seen it. Some numbers are better some places, but no one reacted substantially quicker than we did, and by we basically the earliest governors, which is where these battles are fought in the US.
It seems we can safely replace CharlesWT with an RSS feed for Reason.
Also, it seems we can rename Reason “Because,Reasons.”
EFF has been doing a better job of reporting on speech and surveillance threats. It’s still techno-libertarian, but it usually spares everyone the strained homily that comes with every Reason article.
It seems we can safely replace CharlesWT with an RSS feed for Reason.
Also, it seems we can rename Reason “Because,Reasons.”
EFF has been doing a better job of reporting on speech and surveillance threats. It’s still techno-libertarian, but it usually spares everyone the strained homily that comes with every Reason article.
Hey, if CharlesWT wants the “human freedom” to rub shoulders with proud Libertarians and armed “Patriots”, none of them masked or gloved, in some crowded bar, I for one would not repress him. I’d stay the hell away from him, of course, and so would any rational person.
It’s getting easy to tell the idiots and the MAGAts apart from sane people, these days. From way more than 6 feet away.
–TP
Hey, if CharlesWT wants the “human freedom” to rub shoulders with proud Libertarians and armed “Patriots”, none of them masked or gloved, in some crowded bar, I for one would not repress him. I’d stay the hell away from him, of course, and so would any rational person.
It’s getting easy to tell the idiots and the MAGAts apart from sane people, these days. From way more than 6 feet away.
–TP
which is where these battles are fought in the US.
Which is where they have to be fought now that our federal government is incompetent/compromised.
which is where these battles are fought in the US.
Which is where they have to be fought now that our federal government is incompetent/compromised.
Taibbi absolutely nails it, so he’s probably a racist. No one here addresses him or anyone else on substance anymore. It’s just a bunch of ridiculous name-calling (or shouting Antifa! or OWS!, as if doing so is somehow an actual, substantive argument), and quite frankly, not particularly effective name-calling. Trump is awful so everything in the country that is shitty is his fault, blah, blah, blah.
Seriously, it is the same shit over and over again and anyone who tries to point this out is just WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG. Anyone who tries to point out that the virtually unanimous consensus inside the ObWi bubble might, you know, be flawed in some respects is RWNJ, or a MAGAHat, or a GLIBERTARIAN or some other truly infantile formulation.
And, yes, GFTNC, the PRC’s obvious BS seems to play much better here than in the racist world of people who don’t like communist dictatorships and who think they lie reflexively.
Taibbi absolutely nails it, so he’s probably a racist. No one here addresses him or anyone else on substance anymore. It’s just a bunch of ridiculous name-calling (or shouting Antifa! or OWS!, as if doing so is somehow an actual, substantive argument), and quite frankly, not particularly effective name-calling. Trump is awful so everything in the country that is shitty is his fault, blah, blah, blah.
Seriously, it is the same shit over and over again and anyone who tries to point this out is just WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG. Anyone who tries to point out that the virtually unanimous consensus inside the ObWi bubble might, you know, be flawed in some respects is RWNJ, or a MAGAHat, or a GLIBERTARIAN or some other truly infantile formulation.
And, yes, GFTNC, the PRC’s obvious BS seems to play much better here than in the racist world of people who don’t like communist dictatorships and who think they lie reflexively.
Marty, I read the following article about the German situation at the beginning of April, at which time “the country had more than 100,000 laboratory-confirmed infections as of Monday morning, more than any other country except the United States, Italy and Spain”. and I understand their death rate is still remarkably low. Link below, but money quote is probably this:
In mid-January, long before most Germans had given the virus much thought, Charité hospital in Berlin had already developed a test and posted the formula online.
By the time Germany recorded its first case of Covid-19 in February, laboratories across the country had built up a stock of test kits.
“The reason why we in Germany have so few deaths at the moment compared to the number of infected can be largely explained by the fact that we are doing an extremely large number of lab diagnoses,” said Dr. Christian Drosten, chief virologist at Charité, whose team developed the first test.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-death-rate.html
Marty, I read the following article about the German situation at the beginning of April, at which time “the country had more than 100,000 laboratory-confirmed infections as of Monday morning, more than any other country except the United States, Italy and Spain”. and I understand their death rate is still remarkably low. Link below, but money quote is probably this:
In mid-January, long before most Germans had given the virus much thought, Charité hospital in Berlin had already developed a test and posted the formula online.
By the time Germany recorded its first case of Covid-19 in February, laboratories across the country had built up a stock of test kits.
“The reason why we in Germany have so few deaths at the moment compared to the number of infected can be largely explained by the fact that we are doing an extremely large number of lab diagnoses,” said Dr. Christian Drosten, chief virologist at Charité, whose team developed the first test.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-death-rate.html
McKinney, I hope you won’t take this amiss, but you’re nuts. First of all, when you say
No one here addresses him or anyone else on substance anymore. It’s just a bunch of ridiculous name-calling
you have rather undermined your argument by initially introducing the subject (to a bunch of lefties) by saying he should have or will have his lefty card withdrawn. Very substantive, and constructive, I must say. As far as I know, no one here (and very definitely not me) thinks remotely well of the PRC. You are setting up ridiculous straw men.
McKinney, I hope you won’t take this amiss, but you’re nuts. First of all, when you say
No one here addresses him or anyone else on substance anymore. It’s just a bunch of ridiculous name-calling
you have rather undermined your argument by initially introducing the subject (to a bunch of lefties) by saying he should have or will have his lefty card withdrawn. Very substantive, and constructive, I must say. As far as I know, no one here (and very definitely not me) thinks remotely well of the PRC. You are setting up ridiculous straw men.
In defense of Matt Taibbi—
https://www.pastemagazine.com/politics/matt-taibbi/the-destruction-of-matt-taibbi/
I don’t necessarily believe the accusations made about him, but I might be wrong. People on every part of the political spectrum can be awful people in their personal lives— I have long since given up the idea that there is any close relationship between a person’s political views and how good a person they are ( except in extreme cases, like Nazis, where evil views and being evil seem pretty closely linked). Was he genuinely terrible in Moscow or was that book a satire of ugly Americans in a Russia back then? I don’t know.
As for his political views, I generally agree with Taibbi and am happily to be orthogonal to centrist liberal rationality, though to be clear I favor shutdowns and agree with most people here on that issue. I don’t respect the two idiot doctors in California, but don’t like the idea of Youtube censorship. Yes, I know, youtube isn’t the government so they can block whatever they want. But in practice if you want an audience for dissident viewpoints YouTube is an important venue and if I ran it I would certainly allow idiot doctors to spout their moronic views on all sorts of subjects. I would draw the line somewhere, but not there.
On libertarians, they are good on some issues and terrible on others, imo. It also depends on the libertarian. Some of them are antiwar and some, like Glenn Reynolds, are warmongers. On domestic issues I hate their worship of the supposedly free market but they are good on some civil liberties issue. ( Not sure how they are about the right to vote, though).
Taibbi is definitely on the left, but that tells you nothing, because there are numerous factions on the left and we hate each other.
In defense of Matt Taibbi—
https://www.pastemagazine.com/politics/matt-taibbi/the-destruction-of-matt-taibbi/
I don’t necessarily believe the accusations made about him, but I might be wrong. People on every part of the political spectrum can be awful people in their personal lives— I have long since given up the idea that there is any close relationship between a person’s political views and how good a person they are ( except in extreme cases, like Nazis, where evil views and being evil seem pretty closely linked). Was he genuinely terrible in Moscow or was that book a satire of ugly Americans in a Russia back then? I don’t know.
As for his political views, I generally agree with Taibbi and am happily to be orthogonal to centrist liberal rationality, though to be clear I favor shutdowns and agree with most people here on that issue. I don’t respect the two idiot doctors in California, but don’t like the idea of Youtube censorship. Yes, I know, youtube isn’t the government so they can block whatever they want. But in practice if you want an audience for dissident viewpoints YouTube is an important venue and if I ran it I would certainly allow idiot doctors to spout their moronic views on all sorts of subjects. I would draw the line somewhere, but not there.
On libertarians, they are good on some issues and terrible on others, imo. It also depends on the libertarian. Some of them are antiwar and some, like Glenn Reynolds, are warmongers. On domestic issues I hate their worship of the supposedly free market but they are good on some civil liberties issue. ( Not sure how they are about the right to vote, though).
Taibbi is definitely on the left, but that tells you nothing, because there are numerous factions on the left and we hate each other.
And, yes, GFTNC, the PRC’s obvious BS seems to play much better here than in the racist world of people who don’t like communist dictatorships and who think they lie reflexively
For emphasis, what the bloody hell? Someone clever recently told me that when certain rightwingers mischaracterise mainstream ObWi opinion they are actually describing “the hobgoblins in [their] imagination”. That’s what you’re doing here.
And, yes, GFTNC, the PRC’s obvious BS seems to play much better here than in the racist world of people who don’t like communist dictatorships and who think they lie reflexively
For emphasis, what the bloody hell? Someone clever recently told me that when certain rightwingers mischaracterise mainstream ObWi opinion they are actually describing “the hobgoblins in [their] imagination”. That’s what you’re doing here.
Ah, I understand, it’s the cartoon that has driven you mad. Yes, it’s very unfortunate that the United States of America is led by such a heinously ignorant, malicious, mendacious and incompetent barbarian that even one of the world’s worst dictatorships can ridicule it accurately, and therefore escape criticism for doing it.
Ah, I understand, it’s the cartoon that has driven you mad. Yes, it’s very unfortunate that the United States of America is led by such a heinously ignorant, malicious, mendacious and incompetent barbarian that even one of the world’s worst dictatorships can ridicule it accurately, and therefore escape criticism for doing it.
Taibbi falls flat with me not because I dismiss the concern that the pandemic affords bad actors a chance to grab the moment for their own purposes, but because he broad brushes it all to the point of uselessness.
Like LJ said above, I’m not siding with the Chinese or giving the Chinese too much credit for honesty when I note that the video presents an accurate timeline and that the US responses represented in the video matches the response from the Office of the President pretty well in substance. None of China’s own mistakes or biases or self-interest really alter the criticism at the heart of it, and fighting the propaganda war doesn’t make our pandemic mitigation efforts one bit more or less effective. Correcting the massive dysfunction at the heart of our federal response, however, would.
I also note that Marty modulates from US response to US States’ response in his argument against the timeline, so that he can elide the better of the state responses with the federal response.
Credit will be captured and distributed, blame will be externalized.
Taibbi falls flat with me not because I dismiss the concern that the pandemic affords bad actors a chance to grab the moment for their own purposes, but because he broad brushes it all to the point of uselessness.
Like LJ said above, I’m not siding with the Chinese or giving the Chinese too much credit for honesty when I note that the video presents an accurate timeline and that the US responses represented in the video matches the response from the Office of the President pretty well in substance. None of China’s own mistakes or biases or self-interest really alter the criticism at the heart of it, and fighting the propaganda war doesn’t make our pandemic mitigation efforts one bit more or less effective. Correcting the massive dysfunction at the heart of our federal response, however, would.
I also note that Marty modulates from US response to US States’ response in his argument against the timeline, so that he can elide the better of the state responses with the federal response.
Credit will be captured and distributed, blame will be externalized.
I read that, and the testing is great. The logic, and I have only generally followed their current mortality,seems backwards. The had lots of tests, thus lots of cases. The mortality rate was in line with other places in deaths per million population.
But it’s clear they were prepared to test. So better than us, and most, in that vector.
I read that, and the testing is great. The logic, and I have only generally followed their current mortality,seems backwards. The had lots of tests, thus lots of cases. The mortality rate was in line with other places in deaths per million population.
But it’s clear they were prepared to test. So better than us, and most, in that vector.
Marty, Germany has a population of 83,783,942, and as of today has had 6,640 deaths.
Marty, Germany has a population of 83,783,942, and as of today has had 6,640 deaths.
From the Taibbi article: “But the functional impact of removing their videos (in addition to giving them press they wouldn’t otherwise have had) is to stamp out discussion of things that do actually need to be discussed, like when the damage to the economy and the effects of other crisis-related problems – domestic abuse, substance abuse, suicide, stroke, abuse of children, etc. – become as significant a threat to the public as the pandemic. We do actually have to talk about this. We can’t not talk about it out of fear of being censored, or because we’re confusing real harm with political harm.”
The Washington Post has featured the following:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/national/domestic-violence-survivors-on-the-dangers-of-life-in-quarantine/2020/04/22/8447a987-4f98-47f0-a347-04e2c254707e_video.html (Domestic violence survivors)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/drinking-problem-home-coronavirus-lockdown/2020/04/27/69c45984-865e-11ea-a3eb-e9fc93160703_story.html (alcohol as a pandemic coping mechanism)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/04/28/nyc-doctor-lorna-breen-coronavirus/ (suicide)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/worries-grow-over-dip-in-er-visits-by-stroke-victims-others/2020/04/20/f9f1b554-830e-11ea-81a3-9690c9881111_story.html (strokes)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/04/30/child-abuse-reports-coronavirus/ (child abuse)
Are these subjects being censored?
From the Taibbi article: “But the functional impact of removing their videos (in addition to giving them press they wouldn’t otherwise have had) is to stamp out discussion of things that do actually need to be discussed, like when the damage to the economy and the effects of other crisis-related problems – domestic abuse, substance abuse, suicide, stroke, abuse of children, etc. – become as significant a threat to the public as the pandemic. We do actually have to talk about this. We can’t not talk about it out of fear of being censored, or because we’re confusing real harm with political harm.”
The Washington Post has featured the following:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/national/domestic-violence-survivors-on-the-dangers-of-life-in-quarantine/2020/04/22/8447a987-4f98-47f0-a347-04e2c254707e_video.html (Domestic violence survivors)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/drinking-problem-home-coronavirus-lockdown/2020/04/27/69c45984-865e-11ea-a3eb-e9fc93160703_story.html (alcohol as a pandemic coping mechanism)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/04/28/nyc-doctor-lorna-breen-coronavirus/ (suicide)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/worries-grow-over-dip-in-er-visits-by-stroke-victims-others/2020/04/20/f9f1b554-830e-11ea-81a3-9690c9881111_story.html (strokes)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/04/30/child-abuse-reports-coronavirus/ (child abuse)
Are these subjects being censored?
Taibbi is definitely on the left
Bad Donald. Category Error! You will no longer be taken seriously by the serious people here.
For emphasis, what the bloody hell?
Want an example? Here you go:
And a bit childish for “the official state news service of the People’s Republic of China.” More than one government with “the behavior of five year olds”
Well, if a 5 year old is right, they are right. And failing to understand how social media works around the world will bite you on the ass.
Or TP’s chastising Marty for not, you know, digging the PRC garbage. So, maybe not just my imagination.
Someone clever recently told me that when certain rightwingers mischaracterise mainstream ObWi opinion they are actually describing “the hobgoblins in [their] imagination”. That’s what you’re doing here.
I’m familiar with the concept. It’s a two-way street.
Nous writes, “They were put in a position where they had to choose loyalty or principles and the majority of them pulled the political trigger.”
As I watch the left scramble to distinguish Tara Reade’s allegations against Biden and its self-righteousness otherwise, I’m reminded once again just how convincingly the left prizes principle over politics. Biden was a genius to announce that he would only have a female VP candidate. It’s the perfect vaccine.
Oh, and it’s also an example of how the left projects every much as the right does.
Taibbi is definitely on the left
Bad Donald. Category Error! You will no longer be taken seriously by the serious people here.
For emphasis, what the bloody hell?
Want an example? Here you go:
And a bit childish for “the official state news service of the People’s Republic of China.” More than one government with “the behavior of five year olds”
Well, if a 5 year old is right, they are right. And failing to understand how social media works around the world will bite you on the ass.
Or TP’s chastising Marty for not, you know, digging the PRC garbage. So, maybe not just my imagination.
Someone clever recently told me that when certain rightwingers mischaracterise mainstream ObWi opinion they are actually describing “the hobgoblins in [their] imagination”. That’s what you’re doing here.
I’m familiar with the concept. It’s a two-way street.
Nous writes, “They were put in a position where they had to choose loyalty or principles and the majority of them pulled the political trigger.”
As I watch the left scramble to distinguish Tara Reade’s allegations against Biden and its self-righteousness otherwise, I’m reminded once again just how convincingly the left prizes principle over politics. Biden was a genius to announce that he would only have a female VP candidate. It’s the perfect vaccine.
Oh, and it’s also an example of how the left projects every much as the right does.
Taibbi absolutely nails it, so he’s probably a racist. No one here addresses him or anyone else on substance anymore.
I got a couple of paragraphs in.
Two docs from CA made a video. They pointed out that COVID-19 mortality rate is less than flu, so what’s up with all the lockdown?
Of course, mortality rate of less than influenza in a population with no prior exposure and no herd immunity means… several million people die, absent some mitigating efforts being taken.
The video was taken down by the social media channels after basically every professional medical association with an interest in public health and epidemiology called BS on it.
I presume their (social media channel’s) motivation was some combination of bottom line analysis and basic human decency. Providing a channel for bad medical advice during an epidemic most likely poses a variety of risks for the channel provider. I suppose it could have been something more sinister, but in general folks like that are in it to make a living, so I’m not sure a deeper analysis is needed.
Ockham is my guide.
Tabibi says “CENSORSHIP”.
So I didn’t read any further, because it seemed like he was selling his own pile of BS.
Maybe he had things to say further on in the piece that were more compelling, from point of view of substance. Sadly, time is always short, so you only get so many bites at the apple (i.e., one) before it’s not worth any more of my attention.
Taibbi absolutely nails it, so he’s probably a racist. No one here addresses him or anyone else on substance anymore.
I got a couple of paragraphs in.
Two docs from CA made a video. They pointed out that COVID-19 mortality rate is less than flu, so what’s up with all the lockdown?
Of course, mortality rate of less than influenza in a population with no prior exposure and no herd immunity means… several million people die, absent some mitigating efforts being taken.
The video was taken down by the social media channels after basically every professional medical association with an interest in public health and epidemiology called BS on it.
I presume their (social media channel’s) motivation was some combination of bottom line analysis and basic human decency. Providing a channel for bad medical advice during an epidemic most likely poses a variety of risks for the channel provider. I suppose it could have been something more sinister, but in general folks like that are in it to make a living, so I’m not sure a deeper analysis is needed.
Ockham is my guide.
Tabibi says “CENSORSHIP”.
So I didn’t read any further, because it seemed like he was selling his own pile of BS.
Maybe he had things to say further on in the piece that were more compelling, from point of view of substance. Sadly, time is always short, so you only get so many bites at the apple (i.e., one) before it’s not worth any more of my attention.
Are these subjects being censored?
Sapient, you do realize, don’t you, that the WaPo is not being banned from YouTube? YouTube is banning ordinary citizens with whom it disagrees, not institutional media outlets, who by definition, can only self-censor.
Is some censorship ok as long as others are not censored?
Are these subjects being censored?
Sapient, you do realize, don’t you, that the WaPo is not being banned from YouTube? YouTube is banning ordinary citizens with whom it disagrees, not institutional media outlets, who by definition, can only self-censor.
Is some censorship ok as long as others are not censored?
Did you not get the impression, McKinney, that Taibbi thinks “we” aren’t talking about the issues listed? I listed them because these issues are being discussed.
Youtube is a private company. If it doesn’t want to be liable for assisting snake oil salesmen who want to lead people to their deaths, maybe that’s a good thing. Maybe you should get in touch with their legal counsel and find out why they removed these charlatans.
Did you not get the impression, McKinney, that Taibbi thinks “we” aren’t talking about the issues listed? I listed them because these issues are being discussed.
Youtube is a private company. If it doesn’t want to be liable for assisting snake oil salesmen who want to lead people to their deaths, maybe that’s a good thing. Maybe you should get in touch with their legal counsel and find out why they removed these charlatans.
Taibbi has developed a strong anti-anti-Trump streak lately, somewhat like Glenn Greenwald (who is a FoxNews favorite for that reason). “Dems are mad at Trump? they must be wrong!” isn’t very interesting after the fourth or fifth time.
Is some censorship ok as long as others are not censored?
YouTube has no porn. censorship?
Taibbi has developed a strong anti-anti-Trump streak lately, somewhat like Glenn Greenwald (who is a FoxNews favorite for that reason). “Dems are mad at Trump? they must be wrong!” isn’t very interesting after the fourth or fifth time.
Is some censorship ok as long as others are not censored?
YouTube has no porn. censorship?
Tara Reade’s allegations
We’re gonna hear a lot about this.
Reade should have, and has had, and continues to have, the opportunity to bring her case.
The situation in question happened 30 years ago. There is a lot about the situation that is less than clear. Unless some significant additional information is discovered, it’s unlikely that it will ever be clear that a sexual assault took place, or, equally, that it did not.
So, what do we do in cases like that?
Sometimes the person accused stands down, simply to take themselves out of the public equation and avoid compromising the integrity of whatever position they hold.
Sometimes the person accused does not.
Everybody’s gonna have to make up their own minds on this one, because as far as I can tell, the evidence is not conclusive.
If you think that the sudden appearance of Tara Reade on the scene is unrelated to Biden’s running for office, I’ll invite you to pull the other one.
Tara Reade’s allegations
We’re gonna hear a lot about this.
Reade should have, and has had, and continues to have, the opportunity to bring her case.
The situation in question happened 30 years ago. There is a lot about the situation that is less than clear. Unless some significant additional information is discovered, it’s unlikely that it will ever be clear that a sexual assault took place, or, equally, that it did not.
So, what do we do in cases like that?
Sometimes the person accused stands down, simply to take themselves out of the public equation and avoid compromising the integrity of whatever position they hold.
Sometimes the person accused does not.
Everybody’s gonna have to make up their own minds on this one, because as far as I can tell, the evidence is not conclusive.
If you think that the sudden appearance of Tara Reade on the scene is unrelated to Biden’s running for office, I’ll invite you to pull the other one.
The mortality rate was in line with other places in deaths per million population
Is this supposed to be about Germany?
If so, nope.
Just now, from Worldometer, including only countries with > 10000 cases, sorted by most to least. (Sorry, no time to do something that would make it format nicely.)
Deaths/1M pop
World 30.5
Belgium 665
Spain 531
Italy 467
UK 405
France 377
Netherlands 286
Sweden 263
Ireland 256
Switzerland 203
USA 196
Portugal 99
Canada 90
Germany 80
Iran 73
Austria 65
Ecuador 60
Turkey 39
Romania 39
Peru 34
Brazil 28
Israel 26
Poland 17
Mexico 14
Chile 12
UAE 11
Belarus 10
Russia 8
Ukraine 6
Saudi Arabia 5
S. Korea 5
Qatar 4
China 3
Singapore 3
Japan 3
Indonesia 3
Pakistan 2
India 0.8
Germany’s deaths per MM pop is nowhere close to that of comparable or neighborhing countries. We’re not done, of course; maybe they’ll catch up, though I doubt it, since they’ve tallied deaths all along much more slowly than nearby countries, even allowing for the fact that their curve started to rise later than e.g. Italy or Spain’s.
You can have your own opinions, however idiotic. If you have any alleged facts, a cite would be useful.
The mortality rate was in line with other places in deaths per million population
Is this supposed to be about Germany?
If so, nope.
Just now, from Worldometer, including only countries with > 10000 cases, sorted by most to least. (Sorry, no time to do something that would make it format nicely.)
Deaths/1M pop
World 30.5
Belgium 665
Spain 531
Italy 467
UK 405
France 377
Netherlands 286
Sweden 263
Ireland 256
Switzerland 203
USA 196
Portugal 99
Canada 90
Germany 80
Iran 73
Austria 65
Ecuador 60
Turkey 39
Romania 39
Peru 34
Brazil 28
Israel 26
Poland 17
Mexico 14
Chile 12
UAE 11
Belarus 10
Russia 8
Ukraine 6
Saudi Arabia 5
S. Korea 5
Qatar 4
China 3
Singapore 3
Japan 3
Indonesia 3
Pakistan 2
India 0.8
Germany’s deaths per MM pop is nowhere close to that of comparable or neighborhing countries. We’re not done, of course; maybe they’ll catch up, though I doubt it, since they’ve tallied deaths all along much more slowly than nearby countries, even allowing for the fact that their curve started to rise later than e.g. Italy or Spain’s.
You can have your own opinions, however idiotic. If you have any alleged facts, a cite would be useful.
Well, if a 5 year old is right, they are right. And failing to understand how social media works around the world will bite you on the ass.
Or TP’s chastising Marty for not, you know, digging the PRC garbage. So, maybe not just my imagination.
You can not, you know, dig the PRC garbage, but still, the cartoon is pretty much accurate. A drag, I know.
As for the Biden accusation, personally I’m horror-struck. How is it possible, and what has happened in the body politic, that the only two likely candidates for POTUS in November are a man who has been accused by a woman of sexual assault, and a man who has been accused by twelve (or is it nineteen) women of, variously, sexual assault and rape? Where is the self-righteousness? How is this projecting? And what about the people who defended Kavanaugh so self-righteously? How do you characterise them?
Well, if a 5 year old is right, they are right. And failing to understand how social media works around the world will bite you on the ass.
Or TP’s chastising Marty for not, you know, digging the PRC garbage. So, maybe not just my imagination.
You can not, you know, dig the PRC garbage, but still, the cartoon is pretty much accurate. A drag, I know.
As for the Biden accusation, personally I’m horror-struck. How is it possible, and what has happened in the body politic, that the only two likely candidates for POTUS in November are a man who has been accused by a woman of sexual assault, and a man who has been accused by twelve (or is it nineteen) women of, variously, sexual assault and rape? Where is the self-righteousness? How is this projecting? And what about the people who defended Kavanaugh so self-righteously? How do you characterise them?
Is some censorship ok
It’s bloody well OK for a privately owned social media channel to decline to host videos presenting information as medical fact that responsible and reputable parties have called out as BS. Particularly if the responsible and reputable parties show their work, as I believe they did in this case. And in particular, during a time of epidemic.
Not only is it OK, I would encourage social media channels to vet things like this. Because people who look at things like this from the point of view of whether “their side” endorses it or not are going to do stupid and dangerous things as a result of crap like this.
Seriously, what the hell.
Is some censorship ok
It’s bloody well OK for a privately owned social media channel to decline to host videos presenting information as medical fact that responsible and reputable parties have called out as BS. Particularly if the responsible and reputable parties show their work, as I believe they did in this case. And in particular, during a time of epidemic.
Not only is it OK, I would encourage social media channels to vet things like this. Because people who look at things like this from the point of view of whether “their side” endorses it or not are going to do stupid and dangerous things as a result of crap like this.
Seriously, what the hell.
but no one reacted substantially quicker than we did
The clear implication of this fact free assertion is that we’re all in the same boat when it comes to COVID response.
BULLSHIT.
but no one reacted substantially quicker than we did
The clear implication of this fact free assertion is that we’re all in the same boat when it comes to COVID response.
BULLSHIT.
McKinney: Taibbi absolutely nails it …
Having finally read the piece McKinney cited, looking for the “substance” that Taibbi “absolutely nails”, I get the impression it’s this:
Experts can be wrong. Experts can be liars. Taibbi is an expert on that.
Mass media of the non-RWNJ variety are often dupes of the clubby, cloistered experts, not merely repeating the experts’ group-think but endorsing it to the point of browbeating honest contrarians. “Social media” companies have become Maoist censors, though on private-enterprise principles. Academics and pundits pointing out that (d)emocracy might have limits of usefulness under certain conditions can be more dangerous than honest businessmen pointing out that “lockdowns” do too. Matt is a long-time expert on all that as well.
ALL of the above might be true, and still:
1) The Covid-19 virus is dangerous enough that sane people want to avoid it;
2) Individual people can find it impossible to avoid the virus, acting on their own;
3) There are experts and there are “experts”, and most people can’t easily tell them apart on TV for purposes of identifying good advice;
4) Experts have peer review, “experts” have group-think, and those are not the same;
5) Water runs downhill, the Earth orbits the Sun, viruses are contagious and cancer isn’t, quantum mechanics actually works even if nobody really understands it, and even contrarians can be wrong, or liars, just like experts.
Oh, and: lefty socialist finger-wagging is just as appalling as authoritarian kleptocracy of the Chinese or Russian or American variety because Matt Taibbi says so, and he’s an expert on what Matt Taibbi doesn’t like. I’m perfectly willing to grant that.
–TP
McKinney: Taibbi absolutely nails it …
Having finally read the piece McKinney cited, looking for the “substance” that Taibbi “absolutely nails”, I get the impression it’s this:
Experts can be wrong. Experts can be liars. Taibbi is an expert on that.
Mass media of the non-RWNJ variety are often dupes of the clubby, cloistered experts, not merely repeating the experts’ group-think but endorsing it to the point of browbeating honest contrarians. “Social media” companies have become Maoist censors, though on private-enterprise principles. Academics and pundits pointing out that (d)emocracy might have limits of usefulness under certain conditions can be more dangerous than honest businessmen pointing out that “lockdowns” do too. Matt is a long-time expert on all that as well.
ALL of the above might be true, and still:
1) The Covid-19 virus is dangerous enough that sane people want to avoid it;
2) Individual people can find it impossible to avoid the virus, acting on their own;
3) There are experts and there are “experts”, and most people can’t easily tell them apart on TV for purposes of identifying good advice;
4) Experts have peer review, “experts” have group-think, and those are not the same;
5) Water runs downhill, the Earth orbits the Sun, viruses are contagious and cancer isn’t, quantum mechanics actually works even if nobody really understands it, and even contrarians can be wrong, or liars, just like experts.
Oh, and: lefty socialist finger-wagging is just as appalling as authoritarian kleptocracy of the Chinese or Russian or American variety because Matt Taibbi says so, and he’s an expert on what Matt Taibbi doesn’t like. I’m perfectly willing to grant that.
–TP
Is “censorship” any time you decline to publicize something? Or when you merely refuse to publicize things that have been presented as fact and shown not to be? Or is it when you use the power of the state to keep something from being published?
Personally, I incline to option C. But I’m aware that redefining words for convenience is currently all the rage in some quarters, so YMMV.
Is “censorship” any time you decline to publicize something? Or when you merely refuse to publicize things that have been presented as fact and shown not to be? Or is it when you use the power of the state to keep something from being published?
Personally, I incline to option C. But I’m aware that redefining words for convenience is currently all the rage in some quarters, so YMMV.
Biden was a genius to announce that he would only have a female VP candidate. It’s the perfect vaccine.
Perhaps a too perfect vaccine. A number of the potential VP candidates have spent parts of their careers advocating for victims of sexual assault.
Biden was a genius to announce that he would only have a female VP candidate. It’s the perfect vaccine.
Perhaps a too perfect vaccine. A number of the potential VP candidates have spent parts of their careers advocating for victims of sexual assault.
As I watch the left scramble to distinguish Tara Reade’s allegations against Biden and its self-righteousness otherwise, I’m reminded once again just how convincingly the left prizes principle over politics.
my emphasis
As I watch the left scramble to distinguish Tara Reade’s allegations against Biden and its self-righteousness otherwise, I’m reminded once again just how convincingly the left prizes principle over politics.
my emphasis
Providing a channel for bad medical advice during an epidemic most likely poses a variety of risks for the channel provider.
It doesn’t seem to stop them from running ads by various kinds of quacks.
Providing a channel for bad medical advice during an epidemic most likely poses a variety of risks for the channel provider.
It doesn’t seem to stop them from running ads by various kinds of quacks.
quacks are more likely to hurt the sucker. C19 is likely to hurt the sucker and everyone the sucker has breathed on in the last 10 days.
quacks are more likely to hurt the sucker. C19 is likely to hurt the sucker and everyone the sucker has breathed on in the last 10 days.
I’m still waiting in all of this for someone to suggest what The Left should be doing differently than it is already doing with the Tara Reade story.
And, further, I’m waiting to see if those policy/procedure/protocol suggestions are taken to heart and implemented across the board, or if this whole thing is a tactical, rather than a strategic, concern.
Lot’s of forensic framing, but the problem needs deliberative framing.
I’m still waiting in all of this for someone to suggest what The Left should be doing differently than it is already doing with the Tara Reade story.
And, further, I’m waiting to see if those policy/procedure/protocol suggestions are taken to heart and implemented across the board, or if this whole thing is a tactical, rather than a strategic, concern.
Lot’s of forensic framing, but the problem needs deliberative framing.
Just now, from Worldometer, including only countries with > 10000 cases, sorted by most to least.
On the whole, there seems to be an inversed correlation between the number of deaths and various freedom indexes.
Just now, from Worldometer, including only countries with > 10000 cases, sorted by most to least.
On the whole, there seems to be an inversed correlation between the number of deaths and various freedom indexes.
I’m still waiting in all of this for someone to suggest what The Left should be doing differently than it is already doing with the Tara Reade story.
obviously then only honorable thing to do would be to immediately abandon Biden and sit the election out.
getting the facts before acting is only something we do for Republicans
I’m still waiting in all of this for someone to suggest what The Left should be doing differently than it is already doing with the Tara Reade story.
obviously then only honorable thing to do would be to immediately abandon Biden and sit the election out.
getting the facts before acting is only something we do for Republicans
Exactly right, cleek.
Exactly right, cleek.
long time hater of this blog, Patterico, doesn’t believe Reade either.
long time hater of this blog, Patterico, doesn’t believe Reade either.
As I watch the left scramble to distinguish Tara Reade’s allegations against Biden and its self-righteousness otherwise, I’m reminded once again just how convincingly the left prizes principle over politics.
There are plenty of people on the left who are horrified by the allegations. The are plenty on the left who don’t much like Biden regardless of the allegations. Maybe it’s establishment Democrats you’re thinking of, many of whom aren’t all that left. Maybe left of you.
I don’t know one way or the other if the allegations are true, but they strike me as being credible. I think it sucks that we’re stuck with the choice we now have. Absent the allegations, I was lukewarm about Biden. Not bad, but nothing to get excited about.
I don’t have to vote for him, because I don’t live in a state that’s up for grabs, so I might not. If I lived in a swing state, I’d probably have to hold my nose because Trump has to go.
Is there some way out of this? I don’t see it.
As I watch the left scramble to distinguish Tara Reade’s allegations against Biden and its self-righteousness otherwise, I’m reminded once again just how convincingly the left prizes principle over politics.
There are plenty of people on the left who are horrified by the allegations. The are plenty on the left who don’t much like Biden regardless of the allegations. Maybe it’s establishment Democrats you’re thinking of, many of whom aren’t all that left. Maybe left of you.
I don’t know one way or the other if the allegations are true, but they strike me as being credible. I think it sucks that we’re stuck with the choice we now have. Absent the allegations, I was lukewarm about Biden. Not bad, but nothing to get excited about.
I don’t have to vote for him, because I don’t live in a state that’s up for grabs, so I might not. If I lived in a swing state, I’d probably have to hold my nose because Trump has to go.
Is there some way out of this? I don’t see it.
The clear implication of this fact free assertion is that we’re all in the same boat when it comes to COVID response.
It may be a case of once bitten, twice wary. Some countries near China were hit hard by China’s mishandling of the SARS outbreak. And were better prepared for when China mishandled another virus outbreak.
The clear implication of this fact free assertion is that we’re all in the same boat when it comes to COVID response.
It may be a case of once bitten, twice wary. Some countries near China were hit hard by China’s mishandling of the SARS outbreak. And were better prepared for when China mishandled another virus outbreak.
I’m repeatedly censored at The American Conservative, even as I spare their tender Christian bullshit ears the cursing, which is quite giving of me.
Ask Rod Dreher. The self-righteous twit can’t handle me.
This:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8257147/Bernie-Bros-furious-Tara-Reades-sexual-assault-allegations-against-Joe-Biden.html
If we are to follow the same logic of the drive-by allegations of rank hypocrisy here today regarding this and that, it stands to reason (magazine) that McKinney lining up with the Bernie Bros pushing these allegations against Biden can only mean that McKinney is a closet Sanders pinko socialist who looks upon the PRC with sympathy.
I also look forward pointlessly to McKinney retracting his unfounded (I know where they came from, Russia with love, probably via Drudge) allegations during the Fall 2016 that Hillary Clinton was hiding the true terminal and fatal nature of her flu symptoms for political purposes.
Imagine! Political hypocrisy on the Internet!
What a cheap shot.
Run with it. Maybe Hillary was the Vector for the Covid-19 and this pandemic is her fault entirely.
Biden is a ham sandwich. Even is the ham is off, I’m voting for him.
Not that it worked in 1932. There were at least three other candidates, all ham sandwiches one way or another along with Hitler in that election.
My vote for Paul Joe Bidenberg was useless, it turned out.
Turns out I should have shot Hitler in his brain pan and then started in on his base.
I’ve learned my lesson.
If attorneys can be disbarred by their State Bar, thus stifling their free expression why can’t YouTube take their bogus, perhaps lethal counsel off the air.
If the Justice Department, the FDA, and other agencies can censor these bogus little publicly traded drug companies for lying to and ripping off bonehead consumers and investors with Covid-19 miracle and investors, then why not a private sector outlet like YouTube?
The two doctors are yelling FIRE! in a crowded theater after loosing a smoke bomb on the audience.
If the two doctors (where is Doctor Fine?) had their admitting rights at local hospitals in their area revoked for pushing bullshit on Youtube, is that permitted?
If one of McKinney’s law partners or legal assistants showed up on YouTube raking a certain law firm across the coals, while doing so pants less, how long would they be employed after expressing their free speech?
FOX News just banned these two fat black conservative movement welfare queens from the air for pushing the company line:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_and_Silk
They replaced them with the two mask-less doctors.
This fake blonde had her speech censored as as well:
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2020-03-27/fox-business-anchor-trish-regan-fired-coronavirus-impeachment-scam
It never fucking stops.
I’m a hypocrite. I’m full of shit.
Joe Biden is OK at those two pursuits.
But neither of us measure up against Trump in those categories, so, in bullshit America, Trump wins.
Every fucking time.
Explain!
I’m repeatedly censored at The American Conservative, even as I spare their tender Christian bullshit ears the cursing, which is quite giving of me.
Ask Rod Dreher. The self-righteous twit can’t handle me.
This:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8257147/Bernie-Bros-furious-Tara-Reades-sexual-assault-allegations-against-Joe-Biden.html
If we are to follow the same logic of the drive-by allegations of rank hypocrisy here today regarding this and that, it stands to reason (magazine) that McKinney lining up with the Bernie Bros pushing these allegations against Biden can only mean that McKinney is a closet Sanders pinko socialist who looks upon the PRC with sympathy.
I also look forward pointlessly to McKinney retracting his unfounded (I know where they came from, Russia with love, probably via Drudge) allegations during the Fall 2016 that Hillary Clinton was hiding the true terminal and fatal nature of her flu symptoms for political purposes.
Imagine! Political hypocrisy on the Internet!
What a cheap shot.
Run with it. Maybe Hillary was the Vector for the Covid-19 and this pandemic is her fault entirely.
Biden is a ham sandwich. Even is the ham is off, I’m voting for him.
Not that it worked in 1932. There were at least three other candidates, all ham sandwiches one way or another along with Hitler in that election.
My vote for Paul Joe Bidenberg was useless, it turned out.
Turns out I should have shot Hitler in his brain pan and then started in on his base.
I’ve learned my lesson.
If attorneys can be disbarred by their State Bar, thus stifling their free expression why can’t YouTube take their bogus, perhaps lethal counsel off the air.
If the Justice Department, the FDA, and other agencies can censor these bogus little publicly traded drug companies for lying to and ripping off bonehead consumers and investors with Covid-19 miracle and investors, then why not a private sector outlet like YouTube?
The two doctors are yelling FIRE! in a crowded theater after loosing a smoke bomb on the audience.
If the two doctors (where is Doctor Fine?) had their admitting rights at local hospitals in their area revoked for pushing bullshit on Youtube, is that permitted?
If one of McKinney’s law partners or legal assistants showed up on YouTube raking a certain law firm across the coals, while doing so pants less, how long would they be employed after expressing their free speech?
FOX News just banned these two fat black conservative movement welfare queens from the air for pushing the company line:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_and_Silk
They replaced them with the two mask-less doctors.
This fake blonde had her speech censored as as well:
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2020-03-27/fox-business-anchor-trish-regan-fired-coronavirus-impeachment-scam
It never fucking stops.
I’m a hypocrite. I’m full of shit.
Joe Biden is OK at those two pursuits.
But neither of us measure up against Trump in those categories, so, in bullshit America, Trump wins.
Every fucking time.
Explain!
I’m still waiting in all of this for someone to suggest what The Left should be doing differently than it is already doing with the Tara Reade story.
I have no way to know whether this is already happening or not. But I would hope that The Left (whatever that means), or at least the Democratic Party, is thinking hard about what they do if a) the National Archives do turn up a complaint from Ms Reade from back in the day, or b) other facts/documents surface which add credibility to her claim, or c) something else, that I haven’t thought of. And how that changes, depending on when, between now and January, that happens.
Of course, there may be nothing to her claims. But they damn well ought to be figuring out what they will do if it turns out that there is, rather than just being in denial (if they are). Even if their decision is to just think “Well, Trump is out of comparison worse on this issue” (which he unquestionably is) and stick with the guy they’ve got.
I’m still waiting in all of this for someone to suggest what The Left should be doing differently than it is already doing with the Tara Reade story.
I have no way to know whether this is already happening or not. But I would hope that The Left (whatever that means), or at least the Democratic Party, is thinking hard about what they do if a) the National Archives do turn up a complaint from Ms Reade from back in the day, or b) other facts/documents surface which add credibility to her claim, or c) something else, that I haven’t thought of. And how that changes, depending on when, between now and January, that happens.
Of course, there may be nothing to her claims. But they damn well ought to be figuring out what they will do if it turns out that there is, rather than just being in denial (if they are). Even if their decision is to just think “Well, Trump is out of comparison worse on this issue” (which he unquestionably is) and stick with the guy they’ve got.
What does the First Amendment say about this?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/michael-cohen-back-behind-bars-as-early-prison-release-called-off
I guess we’ll have to ask the Supreme Court to make something up, because neither the Framers (‘dem who framed us in the first place) nor we 2020 in-the-moment rubes have any idea.
The law in an ass ridden backwards by a howler monkey.
What does the First Amendment say about this?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/michael-cohen-back-behind-bars-as-early-prison-release-called-off
I guess we’ll have to ask the Supreme Court to make something up, because neither the Framers (‘dem who framed us in the first place) nor we 2020 in-the-moment rubes have any idea.
The law in an ass ridden backwards by a howler monkey.
I have a different question from nous’.
Who is it that is supposed to “do something” about the Tara Reade story? Who is this “left” that apparently is supposed to come to some kind of consensus on the issue, and then speak yeah or nay with one voice?
People are going to, and do, have all kinds of opinions about it. People will do all kinds of things about it, including nothing.
Reade’s claims should be looked into, with the full benefit of the doubt that we should extend to anyone else who says they have been sexually assaulted. If a persuasive case can be made that Biden assaulted her, then he should stand down and be liable to whatever criminal penalties apply.
If no such case can be made, then Biden and whoever else is involved in running and supporting his campaign will engage in some kind of calculus to figure out if his viability as a candidate has been sufficiently compromised to warrant his stepping down. And who knows what happens at that point.
As a so-called “lefty” here, itself kind of a laughable claim, I don’t see that there is much else to say about it. I have no further opinion about it, because I don’t have sufficient information to have one.
Did he do it? I don’t know. So I don’t know what should happen.
Let the cops figure out if there is a “there” there, and then we do whatever comes next.
The rest is noise.
I have a different question from nous’.
Who is it that is supposed to “do something” about the Tara Reade story? Who is this “left” that apparently is supposed to come to some kind of consensus on the issue, and then speak yeah or nay with one voice?
People are going to, and do, have all kinds of opinions about it. People will do all kinds of things about it, including nothing.
Reade’s claims should be looked into, with the full benefit of the doubt that we should extend to anyone else who says they have been sexually assaulted. If a persuasive case can be made that Biden assaulted her, then he should stand down and be liable to whatever criminal penalties apply.
If no such case can be made, then Biden and whoever else is involved in running and supporting his campaign will engage in some kind of calculus to figure out if his viability as a candidate has been sufficiently compromised to warrant his stepping down. And who knows what happens at that point.
As a so-called “lefty” here, itself kind of a laughable claim, I don’t see that there is much else to say about it. I have no further opinion about it, because I don’t have sufficient information to have one.
Did he do it? I don’t know. So I don’t know what should happen.
Let the cops figure out if there is a “there” there, and then we do whatever comes next.
The rest is noise.
There are doctors all over the web telling us, if we want to live a full life free of flatulence, to fer gawdsakes get rid of this ONE VEGETABLE in our diet.
It’s free speech for the doctors (no, it’s not the avocado in the photo tease), but once you click to the “presentation”, it not free speech for us to HEAR the name of the vegetable.
It’s roughly $49.
The reason Dr. Phil can’t be hauled before the medical licensing boards in his state is because he spews his bullshit far and without actually being licensed to do so in the first place.
The two doctors in question here should try that gambit.
It works in bullshit America.
There are doctors all over the web telling us, if we want to live a full life free of flatulence, to fer gawdsakes get rid of this ONE VEGETABLE in our diet.
It’s free speech for the doctors (no, it’s not the avocado in the photo tease), but once you click to the “presentation”, it not free speech for us to HEAR the name of the vegetable.
It’s roughly $49.
The reason Dr. Phil can’t be hauled before the medical licensing boards in his state is because he spews his bullshit far and without actually being licensed to do so in the first place.
The two doctors in question here should try that gambit.
It works in bullshit America.
But they damn well ought to be figuring out what they will do if it turns out that there is, rather than just being in denial (if they are).
so far: Biden denies it and Reade’s story is an ever-changing kaleidoscope. read that Patterico link above. his points are tough to dismiss.
but, the Democratic Party has a process they will follow if it becomes impossible to go with Biden – and it doesn’t involve Sanders automatically moving up to first place, in case anyone was hoping.
but, before we get there, maybe we should wait for actual evidence. there is absolutely none, right now.
But they damn well ought to be figuring out what they will do if it turns out that there is, rather than just being in denial (if they are).
so far: Biden denies it and Reade’s story is an ever-changing kaleidoscope. read that Patterico link above. his points are tough to dismiss.
but, the Democratic Party has a process they will follow if it becomes impossible to go with Biden – and it doesn’t involve Sanders automatically moving up to first place, in case anyone was hoping.
but, before we get there, maybe we should wait for actual evidence. there is absolutely none, right now.
More attorneys on the Biden/Reade allegations:
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/04/tara-reade-revisited
For the record, I can be full-in on the ME-Too Movement, vote for Biden, and destroy Trump and the entire conservative movement that wants to see BOTH Biden and the Me-Too movement go down in flames.
Marty’s not the only one who can multitask and juggle flaming torches, bowling balls and machetes simultaneously around here.
Who has ever lived a full life without committing acts of hypocrisy, I ask you?
In fact, it seems a substantial bullet point on the resumes of the winners in America.
I can live to see another day unless the Covid gets me.
Send Jesus Christ himself into any job interview in america and I’ll show you a homeless, jobless get with no health insurance bucking for a Crucifixion.
More attorneys on the Biden/Reade allegations:
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/04/tara-reade-revisited
For the record, I can be full-in on the ME-Too Movement, vote for Biden, and destroy Trump and the entire conservative movement that wants to see BOTH Biden and the Me-Too movement go down in flames.
Marty’s not the only one who can multitask and juggle flaming torches, bowling balls and machetes simultaneously around here.
Who has ever lived a full life without committing acts of hypocrisy, I ask you?
In fact, it seems a substantial bullet point on the resumes of the winners in America.
I can live to see another day unless the Covid gets me.
Send Jesus Christ himself into any job interview in america and I’ll show you a homeless, jobless get with no health insurance bucking for a Crucifixion.
One thing I know the left shouldn’t do is threaten Tara Reade’s life and force her to go into hiding. Gee, I wonder why I would even think of such a thing? Has that happened to someone in the last couple of years?
One thing I know the left shouldn’t do is threaten Tara Reade’s life and force her to go into hiding. Gee, I wonder why I would even think of such a thing? Has that happened to someone in the last couple of years?
Too true, hsh.
Too true, hsh.
if we want to live a full life free of flatulence, to fer gawdsakes get rid of this ONE VEGETABLE in our diet.
Is it the Orange One ?
if we want to live a full life free of flatulence, to fer gawdsakes get rid of this ONE VEGETABLE in our diet.
Is it the Orange One ?
Is it the Orange One ?
Clickbait!
Is it the Orange One ?
Clickbait!
The Orange One is not a Vegetable, let alone This ONE Vegetable. And is rumored to be allergic to them (with the possible exception of potatoes, especially in chips and French Fries).
The Orange One is not a Vegetable, let alone This ONE Vegetable. And is rumored to be allergic to them (with the possible exception of potatoes, especially in chips and French Fries).
https://www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/facebook-says-its-removing-content-promoting-false-coronavirus-preventatives
Someone must stop children and republicans from drinking those bleach chasers.
Now eat yer peas!
https://www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/facebook-says-its-removing-content-promoting-false-coronavirus-preventatives
Someone must stop children and republicans from drinking those bleach chasers.
Now eat yer peas!
Talking about the US response and McT has the chutzpah to saw well what about Tara Reade. That is Jedi level what-aboutism.
Talking about the US response and McT has the chutzpah to saw well what about Tara Reade. That is Jedi level what-aboutism.
No, I am pretty sure he was enraged about the Chinese cartoon, its accuracy, our (and other liberals’) acceptance of its accuracy, the responsibility for the ongoing debacle by all the Republicans supporting Trump et al, and he therefore had to hit out with anything at his disposal which was a) we love and defend the PRC and b) we are such hypocrites because Biden is possibly an assaulter. Have a heart, lj. The man is in pain.
No, I am pretty sure he was enraged about the Chinese cartoon, its accuracy, our (and other liberals’) acceptance of its accuracy, the responsibility for the ongoing debacle by all the Republicans supporting Trump et al, and he therefore had to hit out with anything at his disposal which was a) we love and defend the PRC and b) we are such hypocrites because Biden is possibly an assaulter. Have a heart, lj. The man is in pain.
One thing I haven’t seen the so-called left do is claim that Reade’s allegation were cooked up by Republicans. Again, why would such a thing even occur to me? Who’s giving me these strange ideas?
One thing I haven’t seen the so-called left do is claim that Reade’s allegation were cooked up by Republicans. Again, why would such a thing even occur to me? Who’s giving me these strange ideas?
No, although to be fair russell did note the interesting coincidence of these allegations surfacing just when Biden is the nominee. However, I have also seen people on that other link, Patterico, suggesting it could be Putin/Russia. But that might put us in a fix, because if we love the PRC don’t we love the Russians too? Or maybe not, because we are such lefties, and they aren’t proper commies anymore? Oh, it’s all too complicated for my little lefty head to keep track of.
(Do I really have to use a sarcasm font? Isn’t it all too hideously obvious?)
No, although to be fair russell did note the interesting coincidence of these allegations surfacing just when Biden is the nominee. However, I have also seen people on that other link, Patterico, suggesting it could be Putin/Russia. But that might put us in a fix, because if we love the PRC don’t we love the Russians too? Or maybe not, because we are such lefties, and they aren’t proper commies anymore? Oh, it’s all too complicated for my little lefty head to keep track of.
(Do I really have to use a sarcasm font? Isn’t it all too hideously obvious?)
Actually, I don’t like that last post of mine at 07.09 much, and would like to take it back. Sarcasm really doesn’t much suit me, whatever the provocation.
Actually, I don’t like that last post of mine at 07.09 much, and would like to take it back. Sarcasm really doesn’t much suit me, whatever the provocation.
Have a heart, lj. The man is in pain.
ha, good point. He’ll demand that my lefty card be taken away if I don’t give him sympathy despite acting like a berk. Wouldn’t want to be threatened with that!
I just hope all of McT’s unindicted Republican coconspirators don’t go to this thread at April 07, 2020 at 11:06 AM and find out that he is really McKinney ‘we do not live in a binary world’ Texas. Probably drag him behind a pick up truck.
Have a heart, lj. The man is in pain.
ha, good point. He’ll demand that my lefty card be taken away if I don’t give him sympathy despite acting like a berk. Wouldn’t want to be threatened with that!
I just hope all of McT’s unindicted Republican coconspirators don’t go to this thread at April 07, 2020 at 11:06 AM and find out that he is really McKinney ‘we do not live in a binary world’ Texas. Probably drag him behind a pick up truck.
The joys of asynchronous communication. GftNC, your 7:39 suggests that your 6:38 wasn’t sarcastic. Sorry about reading sarcasm into it.
The joys of asynchronous communication. GftNC, your 7:39 suggests that your 6:38 wasn’t sarcastic. Sorry about reading sarcasm into it.
No lj, you were right, in part. The second half of that one was mainly sarcastic, but I didn’t hate it like I hated the following one!
No lj, you were right, in part. The second half of that one was mainly sarcastic, but I didn’t hate it like I hated the following one!
I do appreciate McKinney dropping by once and a while to tell me what I believe. Sometimes I forget. At my age it happens.
I do appreciate McKinney dropping by once and a while to tell me what I believe. Sometimes I forget. At my age it happens.
5/1 US data added to the other thread.
There’s an awful lot of haste to “re-open” — based apparently on magical thinking, since the numbers really aren’t going down that much. They’re down from the highest phase, but sort of stalled at a new, slightly lower plateau.
By heaven, isn’t it great to have the freedom to die for other people’s stupidity and greed?
UK remains to be re-done.
5/1 US data added to the other thread.
There’s an awful lot of haste to “re-open” — based apparently on magical thinking, since the numbers really aren’t going down that much. They’re down from the highest phase, but sort of stalled at a new, slightly lower plateau.
By heaven, isn’t it great to have the freedom to die for other people’s stupidity and greed?
UK remains to be re-done.
I don’t like that last post of mine at 07.09 much, and would like to take it back. Sarcasm really doesn’t much suit me, whatever the provocation.
We shall avert our eyes.
Everybody gets at least one unwanted snark get-out-of-jail-free card.
🙂
In the interest of fairness, I went and watched some of the CA doctors video. I kind of gave up when they were “extrapolating data points” about NY.
In context, while they were extrapolating data points, folks in NYC were stacking corpses in refrigerator trucks. So, really, and I say this in the context of trying to tone down my use of the word ‘fuck’, fuck them.
Just fuck them.
Of course we all want to re-open businesses. We all want to be able to get a haircut. We all want to go to dinner at our favorite restaurants.
We all want to buy paint and garden supplies. We all want to hang out with our friends, without that happening in a Zoom session.
We all want the businesses, small and large, that make up part of the fabric of our own livelihoods, and of our communities, to be able to return to operation.
We all want that. Nobody doesn’t want that.
It’s a freaking virus. Nobody really has a complete handle on what it does to us, nobody has a really solid handle on how to treat it, nobody has an accurate idea of how many people it will kill if we all just go about our business as usual.
Some people have no symptoms. Some people with no symptoms can pass it along to other people.
Some people get over it, and then seem to get it again. Some don’t.
Some people can’t breathe. Some people feel fine and then die suddenly from heart failure or a stroke.
Some people, like a good friend of my wife and I, don’t have the respiratory thing, they just have a horrible fever and spend a week or two feeling like they’re on the freaking rack.
We don’t know that much about COVID yet. We don’t know that much about how it makes us sick, or all the ways it can make us sick, or what to do about it. So as far as I can tell, any talk about “re-opening the economy” has to occur in the context of testing, data collection and analysis, incremental re-opening of industries where some kind of safety practices can be defined and enforced, and careful monitoring so we can respond if there are resurgences of infection and death.
I don’t see that anything else makes sense. “How bad is the damage gonna get” is not really in our control. It’ll get as bad as it gets, medically and economically. I’m not in favor of putting people’s lives at risk to “save the economy”.
I don’t like that last post of mine at 07.09 much, and would like to take it back. Sarcasm really doesn’t much suit me, whatever the provocation.
We shall avert our eyes.
Everybody gets at least one unwanted snark get-out-of-jail-free card.
🙂
In the interest of fairness, I went and watched some of the CA doctors video. I kind of gave up when they were “extrapolating data points” about NY.
In context, while they were extrapolating data points, folks in NYC were stacking corpses in refrigerator trucks. So, really, and I say this in the context of trying to tone down my use of the word ‘fuck’, fuck them.
Just fuck them.
Of course we all want to re-open businesses. We all want to be able to get a haircut. We all want to go to dinner at our favorite restaurants.
We all want to buy paint and garden supplies. We all want to hang out with our friends, without that happening in a Zoom session.
We all want the businesses, small and large, that make up part of the fabric of our own livelihoods, and of our communities, to be able to return to operation.
We all want that. Nobody doesn’t want that.
It’s a freaking virus. Nobody really has a complete handle on what it does to us, nobody has a really solid handle on how to treat it, nobody has an accurate idea of how many people it will kill if we all just go about our business as usual.
Some people have no symptoms. Some people with no symptoms can pass it along to other people.
Some people get over it, and then seem to get it again. Some don’t.
Some people can’t breathe. Some people feel fine and then die suddenly from heart failure or a stroke.
Some people, like a good friend of my wife and I, don’t have the respiratory thing, they just have a horrible fever and spend a week or two feeling like they’re on the freaking rack.
We don’t know that much about COVID yet. We don’t know that much about how it makes us sick, or all the ways it can make us sick, or what to do about it. So as far as I can tell, any talk about “re-opening the economy” has to occur in the context of testing, data collection and analysis, incremental re-opening of industries where some kind of safety practices can be defined and enforced, and careful monitoring so we can respond if there are resurgences of infection and death.
I don’t see that anything else makes sense. “How bad is the damage gonna get” is not really in our control. It’ll get as bad as it gets, medically and economically. I’m not in favor of putting people’s lives at risk to “save the economy”.
So, bozo brain had his fifteen minutes of fame on Fox yesterday, did as he threatened to do with the collaboration of 150 or so other bozo brains, and you know what? His bluff, it was called. He lost his health and liquor licenses.
From the 2nd article, he decided he could open up despite emergency orders from the governor…
That second paragraph is a gem of, well, certainly not logic.
“Make America stupid again!” one woman yelled out the window of a passing car.
Truer words.
So, bozo brain had his fifteen minutes of fame on Fox yesterday, did as he threatened to do with the collaboration of 150 or so other bozo brains, and you know what? His bluff, it was called. He lost his health and liquor licenses.
From the 2nd article, he decided he could open up despite emergency orders from the governor…
That second paragraph is a gem of, well, certainly not logic.
“Make America stupid again!” one woman yelled out the window of a passing car.
Truer words.
I do appreciate McKinney dropping by once and a while to tell me what I believe.
He’s a lawyer, that’s his job…
I do appreciate McKinney dropping by once and a while to tell me what I believe.
He’s a lawyer, that’s his job…
We’re America.
James Madison wept.
Thomas Jefferson, writing from his rooms in Paris, cheered bozo on.
We’re America.
James Madison wept.
Thomas Jefferson, writing from his rooms in Paris, cheered bozo on.
What they don’t seem to grasp is that their hero-bozo could do dumb stuff like this and thereby bankrupt his businesses over and over. And just go out and do it again. But they, not having a rich daddy to bail them out over and over, cannot.
What they don’t seem to grasp is that their hero-bozo could do dumb stuff like this and thereby bankrupt his businesses over and over. And just go out and do it again. But they, not having a rich daddy to bail them out over and over, cannot.
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/05/worthwhile-canadian-initiative
Waiting for the CharlesWT Reason clip telling use that this is an overreach and indicates the creeping authoritarianism that was just waiting for COVID-19 to descend on us. In 3, 2, 1…
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/05/worthwhile-canadian-initiative
Waiting for the CharlesWT Reason clip telling use that this is an overreach and indicates the creeping authoritarianism that was just waiting for COVID-19 to descend on us. In 3, 2, 1…
OK…
“A U.S. assault-weapon ban was in place from 1994 to 2004, though it did not try to sweep up the guns already in circulation. As The New York Times has reported, it had no noticeable positive effect on American public safety. (Yes, that includes its impact, or rather its failure to have an impact, on mass shootings.) Such weapons’ role in murder and crime is tiny, both in the U.S. (where shotguns and rifles of any kind, not just “assault weapons,” are used in only 4 percent of murders) and Canada (where the larger category of non-sawed-off rifles and shotguns were used in 2018 in only 8 percent of murders)”
Canada Bans ‘Assault Weapons’ by Executive Order: Such bans have already proven to be essentially valueless for crime-fighting.
OK…
“A U.S. assault-weapon ban was in place from 1994 to 2004, though it did not try to sweep up the guns already in circulation. As The New York Times has reported, it had no noticeable positive effect on American public safety. (Yes, that includes its impact, or rather its failure to have an impact, on mass shootings.) Such weapons’ role in murder and crime is tiny, both in the U.S. (where shotguns and rifles of any kind, not just “assault weapons,” are used in only 4 percent of murders) and Canada (where the larger category of non-sawed-off rifles and shotguns were used in 2018 in only 8 percent of murders)”
Canada Bans ‘Assault Weapons’ by Executive Order: Such bans have already proven to be essentially valueless for crime-fighting.
from your link
Trudeau also intends to buy back banned weapons from their owners. That will require legislation, so the specifics aren’t in place yet.
https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
https://cdn1.sph.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/1264/2012/10/bulletins_australia_spring_2011.pdf
http://ftp.iza.org/dp4995.pdf
Reason isn’t Tucker Carlson depths of stupidity and bullshit, but it is the constant drip of ‘unconventional wisdom’ that does it for me.
from your link
Trudeau also intends to buy back banned weapons from their owners. That will require legislation, so the specifics aren’t in place yet.
https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
https://cdn1.sph.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/1264/2012/10/bulletins_australia_spring_2011.pdf
http://ftp.iza.org/dp4995.pdf
Reason isn’t Tucker Carlson depths of stupidity and bullshit, but it is the constant drip of ‘unconventional wisdom’ that does it for me.
I could be wrong, but my guess is that if we look at cases where somebody wanted to kill a lot of people all at once, the role of military style weapons would be more than tiny.
And for threatening violence against the government and/or your neighbors, they are de rigeur.
It would be great if we could simply ban madmen and assholes from owning guns. That’s not really practical. Could be that banning the favorite firearm of madmen and assholes is a reasonable proxy.
I could be wrong, but my guess is that if we look at cases where somebody wanted to kill a lot of people all at once, the role of military style weapons would be more than tiny.
And for threatening violence against the government and/or your neighbors, they are de rigeur.
It would be great if we could simply ban madmen and assholes from owning guns. That’s not really practical. Could be that banning the favorite firearm of madmen and assholes is a reasonable proxy.
Compliance with the gun buyback in Australia was about 20%. Now they have a violent firearms black market. The homicide rates in both Australia and the US have been declining for decades while there has been a large increase in the number of guns in the US.
Compliance with the gun buyback in Australia was about 20%. Now they have a violent firearms black market. The homicide rates in both Australia and the US have been declining for decades while there has been a large increase in the number of guns in the US.
the US has 6x as much gun crime as AU.
the murder rate in the US is 57x AU’s.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime
the US has 6x as much gun crime as AU.
the murder rate in the US is 57x AU’s.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime
CharlesWT,
As a True Libertarian, you must be in favor of Liberty(TM) for other people. Any asshole can be all for his own Liberty. If that’s all it takes, then Kim Jong Un is a True Libertarian.
So I infer you want your neighbors up and down the block, or across town, or in the “inner city”, to be free to own as many guns of any type as they like. Or maybe, if you’re a Free Market Libertarian, as many as they can afford. If you had your way as a True Libertarian, I suppose you’d be in favor of Liberals and Socialists, as well as Libertarians and drunks in MAGA hats, to be able to buy pistols in blister packs and loose ammo out of converted pickle barrels at any “convenience store”, and order full-auto machine guns from Amazon.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
–TP
CharlesWT,
As a True Libertarian, you must be in favor of Liberty(TM) for other people. Any asshole can be all for his own Liberty. If that’s all it takes, then Kim Jong Un is a True Libertarian.
So I infer you want your neighbors up and down the block, or across town, or in the “inner city”, to be free to own as many guns of any type as they like. Or maybe, if you’re a Free Market Libertarian, as many as they can afford. If you had your way as a True Libertarian, I suppose you’d be in favor of Liberals and Socialists, as well as Libertarians and drunks in MAGA hats, to be able to buy pistols in blister packs and loose ammo out of converted pickle barrels at any “convenience store”, and order full-auto machine guns from Amazon.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
–TP
Wiki on gun violence in the US. You and Wikipedia can duke it out, arguing about how many AR-15 magazines can dance on the head of a pin depresses the hell out of me.
From the Wiki page:
Marginal declines in “25 times greater” just don’t make me feel any better about the whole thing.
And for some reason or other, suicides by firearm never seem to be of interest. I can never figure that one out.
Violent, tragic death is violent, tragic death, no matter who pulls the trigger.
Americans like to shoot themselves and each other, at rates that would alarm the hell out of any reasonable nation. Nobody but us would put up with this level of consistent ambient violent behavior for more than a freaking minute.
We could ban all the guns and we’d still find a way to kill ourselves and each other. We’d just have to try harder. Maybe that would be an experiment worth trying, maybe it wouldn’t.
In any case, it’s academic, because we love guns and we aren’t gonna give them up, no matter what. The main reason I’d be against banning particular kinds of firearms is (a) it would just make a bunch of people go out and stock up on them, and (b) any attempt at buy-backs or attempts to – god forbid – take them by force of law would just get a lot of well-meaning government employees killed.
Americans freaking love guns, and we make an astoundingly regular practice of shooting ourselves and other people. I don’t know why, it’s just another one of those inexplicable FUBAR things about being American.
I look forward to the ensuing stream of “strain at a gnat and swallow a camel” Reason magazine cites.
It’s a nice day out, my wife and I are gonna spend the day outside working on the yard and garden. No guns will be required, no guns will be involved. We will maintain proper social distance from our neighbors. When we’re done, we’ll wash our hands vigorously for at least 20 seconds with soap and warm water.
And we’ll look forward to better days.
Stay safe everyone. Don’t shoot anybody, including yourselves.
Wiki on gun violence in the US. You and Wikipedia can duke it out, arguing about how many AR-15 magazines can dance on the head of a pin depresses the hell out of me.
From the Wiki page:
Marginal declines in “25 times greater” just don’t make me feel any better about the whole thing.
And for some reason or other, suicides by firearm never seem to be of interest. I can never figure that one out.
Violent, tragic death is violent, tragic death, no matter who pulls the trigger.
Americans like to shoot themselves and each other, at rates that would alarm the hell out of any reasonable nation. Nobody but us would put up with this level of consistent ambient violent behavior for more than a freaking minute.
We could ban all the guns and we’d still find a way to kill ourselves and each other. We’d just have to try harder. Maybe that would be an experiment worth trying, maybe it wouldn’t.
In any case, it’s academic, because we love guns and we aren’t gonna give them up, no matter what. The main reason I’d be against banning particular kinds of firearms is (a) it would just make a bunch of people go out and stock up on them, and (b) any attempt at buy-backs or attempts to – god forbid – take them by force of law would just get a lot of well-meaning government employees killed.
Americans freaking love guns, and we make an astoundingly regular practice of shooting ourselves and other people. I don’t know why, it’s just another one of those inexplicable FUBAR things about being American.
I look forward to the ensuing stream of “strain at a gnat and swallow a camel” Reason magazine cites.
It’s a nice day out, my wife and I are gonna spend the day outside working on the yard and garden. No guns will be required, no guns will be involved. We will maintain proper social distance from our neighbors. When we’re done, we’ll wash our hands vigorously for at least 20 seconds with soap and warm water.
And we’ll look forward to better days.
Stay safe everyone. Don’t shoot anybody, including yourselves.
SOME Americans freaking love guns
SOME Americans freaking love guns
Nobody but us would put up with this level of consistent ambient violent behavior for more than a freaking minute.
Absolutely true. The only exception I can think of is some of the very lawless, anarchic conditions in certain African nations, at certain times of tremendous temporary, or ongoing, political upheaval. Your level in the US is unthinkable in any other stable first world democracy.
Nobody but us would put up with this level of consistent ambient violent behavior for more than a freaking minute.
Absolutely true. The only exception I can think of is some of the very lawless, anarchic conditions in certain African nations, at certain times of tremendous temporary, or ongoing, political upheaval. Your level in the US is unthinkable in any other stable first world democracy.
this is all the left’s fault, because they love China so much.
this is all the left’s fault, because they love China so much.
Compliance with the gun buyback in Australia was about 20%.
No link? You’re slipping! But if a 20% reduction gets this
First,” Hemenway and Vriniotis write, “the drop in firearm deaths was largest among the type of firearms most affected by the buyback. Second, firearm deaths in states with higher buyback rates per capita fell proportionately more than in states with lower buyback rates.”
There is also this: 1996 and 1997, the two years in which the NFA was actually implemented, saw the largest percentage declines in the homicide rate in any two-year period in Australia between 1915 and 2004.
Pinning down exactly how much the NFA contributed is harder. One study concluded that buying back 3,500 guns per 100,000 people correlated with up to a 50 percent drop in firearm homicides. But as my colleague Dylan Matthews points out, the results were not statistically significant because Australia has a pretty low number of murders already.
However, the paper’s findings about suicide were statistically significant — and astounding. Buying back 3,500 guns correlated with a 74 percent drop in firearm suicides. Non-gun suicides didn’t increase to make up the decline.
There is good reason why gun restrictions would prevent suicides. As Matthews explains in great depth, suicide is often an impulsive choice, one often not repeated after a first attempt. Guns are specifically designed for killing, which makes suicide attempts with guns likelier to succeed than (for example) attempts with razors or pills. Limiting access to guns makes each attempt more likely to fail, thus making it more likely that people will survive and not attempt to harm themselves again.
The buyback also may have reduced the rate of mass shootings. A 2018 study found that, in the 18 years before Port Arthur, Australia experienced 13 mass shootings; in the 22 years since, the country has only suffered one such incident.
seems like pretty good value…
Compliance with the gun buyback in Australia was about 20%.
No link? You’re slipping! But if a 20% reduction gets this
First,” Hemenway and Vriniotis write, “the drop in firearm deaths was largest among the type of firearms most affected by the buyback. Second, firearm deaths in states with higher buyback rates per capita fell proportionately more than in states with lower buyback rates.”
There is also this: 1996 and 1997, the two years in which the NFA was actually implemented, saw the largest percentage declines in the homicide rate in any two-year period in Australia between 1915 and 2004.
Pinning down exactly how much the NFA contributed is harder. One study concluded that buying back 3,500 guns per 100,000 people correlated with up to a 50 percent drop in firearm homicides. But as my colleague Dylan Matthews points out, the results were not statistically significant because Australia has a pretty low number of murders already.
However, the paper’s findings about suicide were statistically significant — and astounding. Buying back 3,500 guns correlated with a 74 percent drop in firearm suicides. Non-gun suicides didn’t increase to make up the decline.
There is good reason why gun restrictions would prevent suicides. As Matthews explains in great depth, suicide is often an impulsive choice, one often not repeated after a first attempt. Guns are specifically designed for killing, which makes suicide attempts with guns likelier to succeed than (for example) attempts with razors or pills. Limiting access to guns makes each attempt more likely to fail, thus making it more likely that people will survive and not attempt to harm themselves again.
The buyback also may have reduced the rate of mass shootings. A 2018 study found that, in the 18 years before Port Arthur, Australia experienced 13 mass shootings; in the 22 years since, the country has only suffered one such incident.
seems like pretty good value…
But you can’t really compare a nation descended from lowborn convicts with one founded by highborn pioneers. 😉
But you can’t really compare a nation descended from lowborn convicts with one founded by highborn pioneers. 😉
‘highborn’ in the sense of gentlemen, not necessary blueblooded nobility.
‘highborn’ in the sense of gentlemen, not necessary blueblooded nobility.
Compliance with the gun buyback in Australia was about 20%.
No link? You’re slipping!
“In Australia, it is estimated that only about 20% of all banned self-loading rifles have been given up to the authorities,” wrote Franz Csaszar, professor of criminology at the University of Vienna, after Australia’s 1996 compensated confiscation of firearms following a mass murder in Port Arthur, Tasmania. Csaszar put the number of illegally retained arms in Australia at between two and five million.
“Many members of the community still possess grey-market firearms because they did not surrender these during the 1996–97 gun buyback,” the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission conceded in a 2016 report. “The Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission continues to conservatively estimate that there are more than 260,000 firearms in the illicit firearms market.”
Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand’s Gun Control Scheme: As of last week, only around 700 weapons had been turned over.
Gun violence varies greatly in the US with most of it in large inter cities and a lot of it related to the war on drugs.
I live in one of the safer areas of a city rated as the second safest in the US. Although, some months ago, there were two murders in the apartment complex I live in. With a knife.
Compliance with the gun buyback in Australia was about 20%.
No link? You’re slipping!
“In Australia, it is estimated that only about 20% of all banned self-loading rifles have been given up to the authorities,” wrote Franz Csaszar, professor of criminology at the University of Vienna, after Australia’s 1996 compensated confiscation of firearms following a mass murder in Port Arthur, Tasmania. Csaszar put the number of illegally retained arms in Australia at between two and five million.
“Many members of the community still possess grey-market firearms because they did not surrender these during the 1996–97 gun buyback,” the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission conceded in a 2016 report. “The Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission continues to conservatively estimate that there are more than 260,000 firearms in the illicit firearms market.”
Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand’s Gun Control Scheme: As of last week, only around 700 weapons had been turned over.
Gun violence varies greatly in the US with most of it in large inter cities and a lot of it related to the war on drugs.
I live in one of the safer areas of a city rated as the second safest in the US. Although, some months ago, there were two murders in the apartment complex I live in. With a knife.
the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a knife is a good guy with a knife.
and who in the US doesn’t have multiple knives in their house?
hell, i’ve got a drawer absolutely full of them, and another draeer with a set of eight identical little daggers that we use to cut up food with sometimes.
nobody’s gonna knife us!
the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a knife is a good guy with a knife.
and who in the US doesn’t have multiple knives in their house?
hell, i’ve got a drawer absolutely full of them, and another draeer with a set of eight identical little daggers that we use to cut up food with sometimes.
nobody’s gonna knife us!
But how good are you at sniper knifing?
And what, if someone comes at you with an electric breadknife ( https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/311C-PolSmL._AC_SX450_.jpg )? There are cordless ones, so just keeping away from the socket-outlet won’t save you.
But how good are you at sniper knifing?
And what, if someone comes at you with an electric breadknife ( https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/311C-PolSmL._AC_SX450_.jpg )? There are cordless ones, so just keeping away from the socket-outlet won’t save you.
Don’t forget narwhal tusks! Statistically proven to lessen knife crime.
Don’t forget narwhal tusks! Statistically proven to lessen knife crime.
i’ve got axes and pocket knives and saws and chain saws in my garage. i’ve got a saw that can cut through steel. it’s a goddamned arensal up in here.
i’m surprised The Man hasn’t come around to take me to jail for being a terrorist.
i’ve got axes and pocket knives and saws and chain saws in my garage. i’ve got a saw that can cut through steel. it’s a goddamned arensal up in here.
i’m surprised The Man hasn’t come around to take me to jail for being a terrorist.
Don’t take your knives to London…
“It turns out that when you pass laws disarming people in an attempt to prevent violence, criminals who habitually disregard all laws don’t make exceptions for the new rules. In London, crime still thrives despite the U.K.’s tight gun controls and the British political class is now desperately turning its attention to restricting knives.”
British Politicians Declare War on Knives: Having failed to thwart crime with gun bans, British officials now want to restrict what may be the most useful tool ever invented. (04/24/2018)
Don’t take your knives to London…
“It turns out that when you pass laws disarming people in an attempt to prevent violence, criminals who habitually disregard all laws don’t make exceptions for the new rules. In London, crime still thrives despite the U.K.’s tight gun controls and the British political class is now desperately turning its attention to restricting knives.”
British Politicians Declare War on Knives: Having failed to thwart crime with gun bans, British officials now want to restrict what may be the most useful tool ever invented. (04/24/2018)
I haven’t read all the comments since yesterday, but will respond to the one ( I think by nous) about banning lies or bad info in a pandemic. The problem with that is that you would have to keep the government of Sweden off YouTube if they wanted to post a defense of their approach ( I don’t know if they have).
I very much prefer listening to epidemiologists to, say, that idiot libertarian law professor Richard Epstein, but yes, idiots should have the right to spout destructive nonsense on subjects where, if their views have influence, people will die. So on pandemics, US ( bipartisan) support for war crimes and mass murder and most important of all, global warming, the people who are wrong, sometimes in good faith and often not, should have free speech. ( Often the problem is that the people who are right don’t get much of a hearing.)
Besides, you really do have to be cautious about elevating the notion of expertise. It applies best in narrow ways, typically involving math and science, but the more complex the problem is the less valid it is to talk about expertise. On foreign policy, for instance, you need expertise, but for the basics. You need people who speak foreign languages and understand the history and culture of other countries but “ expertise” too often means that people have advanced degrees and are articulate as they impose sanctions or support some brutal war or act like we can remake the political culture of an occupied country at gunpoint— yes it worked after WW2, but in general it doesn’t. Also, the people in the mainstream press and the Beltway talk about competence and incompetence rather than ask whether we have the moral right to do something in the first place. It is taken for granted that we are the good guys— the only question is one of tactics and who has the expertise needed to impose our will successfully.
And political partisans of every sort tend to live in bubbles. IMO rightwingers live in bigger bubbles because there are more facts that discredit their views but every faction ( mine included) deludes itself or avoids certain topics to some degree or engages in ad hominem attacks on people whose views make them uncomfortable.
And there are many more than two political tribes. In elections in the US there are only two that have a chance of winning, but when talking about issues it’s a huge mistake acting like everything has to be viewed through that filter.
I am being vague and general because I don’t have much interest in having long arguments, but I can think of 9 foreign policy issues in the past decade off the top of my head where I would be extremely critical of most Democrats and Republicans and I am probably missing some. And on Biden and Reade , it was obvious that the mainstream press was using a different standard to cover her allegations than they used with Ford and Kavanaugh. It looked like they were hoping it would go away. It is understandable. Trump is worse. But it was also obvious.
I haven’t read all the comments since yesterday, but will respond to the one ( I think by nous) about banning lies or bad info in a pandemic. The problem with that is that you would have to keep the government of Sweden off YouTube if they wanted to post a defense of their approach ( I don’t know if they have).
I very much prefer listening to epidemiologists to, say, that idiot libertarian law professor Richard Epstein, but yes, idiots should have the right to spout destructive nonsense on subjects where, if their views have influence, people will die. So on pandemics, US ( bipartisan) support for war crimes and mass murder and most important of all, global warming, the people who are wrong, sometimes in good faith and often not, should have free speech. ( Often the problem is that the people who are right don’t get much of a hearing.)
Besides, you really do have to be cautious about elevating the notion of expertise. It applies best in narrow ways, typically involving math and science, but the more complex the problem is the less valid it is to talk about expertise. On foreign policy, for instance, you need expertise, but for the basics. You need people who speak foreign languages and understand the history and culture of other countries but “ expertise” too often means that people have advanced degrees and are articulate as they impose sanctions or support some brutal war or act like we can remake the political culture of an occupied country at gunpoint— yes it worked after WW2, but in general it doesn’t. Also, the people in the mainstream press and the Beltway talk about competence and incompetence rather than ask whether we have the moral right to do something in the first place. It is taken for granted that we are the good guys— the only question is one of tactics and who has the expertise needed to impose our will successfully.
And political partisans of every sort tend to live in bubbles. IMO rightwingers live in bigger bubbles because there are more facts that discredit their views but every faction ( mine included) deludes itself or avoids certain topics to some degree or engages in ad hominem attacks on people whose views make them uncomfortable.
And there are many more than two political tribes. In elections in the US there are only two that have a chance of winning, but when talking about issues it’s a huge mistake acting like everything has to be viewed through that filter.
I am being vague and general because I don’t have much interest in having long arguments, but I can think of 9 foreign policy issues in the past decade off the top of my head where I would be extremely critical of most Democrats and Republicans and I am probably missing some. And on Biden and Reade , it was obvious that the mainstream press was using a different standard to cover her allegations than they used with Ford and Kavanaugh. It looked like they were hoping it would go away. It is understandable. Trump is worse. But it was also obvious.
WDS
WDS
London Population 2019: 8.982 million
London homicides 2019: 149
Cannot find homicides by knife for the whole year, but on September 14th 2019 there had been 110 murders, of which 67 were by knife. We are very horrified by these numbers, and there is an ongoing public outcry and attempts being made to stem the violence.
London Population 2019: 8.982 million
London homicides 2019: 149
Cannot find homicides by knife for the whole year, but on September 14th 2019 there had been 110 murders, of which 67 were by knife. We are very horrified by these numbers, and there is an ongoing public outcry and attempts being made to stem the violence.
It looked like they were hoping it would go away.
just on a whim…
WaPo had 10 articles with “Reade” in the headline, yesterday. 6 the day before.
NYT has had 42 articles about her in the past week.
It looked like they were hoping it would go away.
just on a whim…
WaPo had 10 articles with “Reade” in the headline, yesterday. 6 the day before.
NYT has had 42 articles about her in the past week.
Italexio!
Italexio!
Donald’s post is rather reasonable, IMO, so not surprising from him.
Donald’s post is rather reasonable, IMO, so not surprising from him.
In London, crime still thrives despite the U.K.’s tight gun controls and the British political class is now desperately turning its attention to restricting knives.”
US murder rate is 18x the UK’s
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime
say… when your average right-wing lunatic storms his state capitol building, which weapon is the centerpiece of his ensemble? is it:
A) his sunglasses, which could focus the sun’s rays into a raging inferno fire, given sufficient kindling and a bright clear windless day
B) the utility knife he keeps holstered somewhere on his belt
C) the military-style rifle he holds like he wants everyone around him to know he’ll use it, just give him a reason!
In London, crime still thrives despite the U.K.’s tight gun controls and the British political class is now desperately turning its attention to restricting knives.”
US murder rate is 18x the UK’s
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime
say… when your average right-wing lunatic storms his state capitol building, which weapon is the centerpiece of his ensemble? is it:
A) his sunglasses, which could focus the sun’s rays into a raging inferno fire, given sufficient kindling and a bright clear windless day
B) the utility knife he keeps holstered somewhere on his belt
C) the military-style rifle he holds like he wants everyone around him to know he’ll use it, just give him a reason!
also… which of those weapons has literally no other use besides being a weapon?
also… which of those weapons has literally no other use besides being a weapon?
Besides, you really do have to be cautious about elevating the notion of expertise. It applies best in narrow ways, typically involving math and science, but the more complex the problem is the less valid it is to talk about expertise.
I respect experts and the “notion of expertise”. Political actions usually don’t follow the precise advice of experts, and clearly in areas such as foreign policy, there are various elements that are informed by expertise.
People who get degrees in medicine generally know more about medical procedures than I do. People who get advanced degrees in statistical analysis know how to do that better than I do. I know more about certain aspects of the law (and other things) than people who haven’t studied those things. People who have had day to day job experience in some fields know more than people who don’t have that background.
Obviously, opinions differ on the best way forward in many circumstances. Opinions can be based on expert analysis, and still differ. That doesn’t negate the importance of the expert analysis. Of course, experts make mistakes, and the state of the art in any field might be untested or flawed. That doesn’t mean that people who do their life’s work studying and working on problems should be ignored by people whose agenda is based on ignorance (or even much less experience), even with the best wishes.
Besides, you really do have to be cautious about elevating the notion of expertise. It applies best in narrow ways, typically involving math and science, but the more complex the problem is the less valid it is to talk about expertise.
I respect experts and the “notion of expertise”. Political actions usually don’t follow the precise advice of experts, and clearly in areas such as foreign policy, there are various elements that are informed by expertise.
People who get degrees in medicine generally know more about medical procedures than I do. People who get advanced degrees in statistical analysis know how to do that better than I do. I know more about certain aspects of the law (and other things) than people who haven’t studied those things. People who have had day to day job experience in some fields know more than people who don’t have that background.
Obviously, opinions differ on the best way forward in many circumstances. Opinions can be based on expert analysis, and still differ. That doesn’t negate the importance of the expert analysis. Of course, experts make mistakes, and the state of the art in any field might be untested or flawed. That doesn’t mean that people who do their life’s work studying and working on problems should be ignored by people whose agenda is based on ignorance (or even much less experience), even with the best wishes.
In London, crime still thrives despite the U.K.’s tight gun controls
To the best of my knowledge, nobody, repeat nobody, has ever claimed that gun control would reduce (let alone eliminate) all crime. It’s only meant to address violent crime, specifically homocide. Which, in fact, it does quite effectively. Especially if the penalties for crimes involving a gun, as opposed to just possessing an unlicensed gun, are sufficiently serious.
You deal with a black market in guns by making it just not worth the risk. There may still be one for those who are religious about their guns. But that’s a limited market. Unlike things like drugs, very few people get high from a gun.
In London, crime still thrives despite the U.K.’s tight gun controls
To the best of my knowledge, nobody, repeat nobody, has ever claimed that gun control would reduce (let alone eliminate) all crime. It’s only meant to address violent crime, specifically homocide. Which, in fact, it does quite effectively. Especially if the penalties for crimes involving a gun, as opposed to just possessing an unlicensed gun, are sufficiently serious.
You deal with a black market in guns by making it just not worth the risk. There may still be one for those who are religious about their guns. But that’s a limited market. Unlike things like drugs, very few people get high from a gun.
Gun violence varies greatly in the US with most of it in large inter cities and a lot of it related to the war on drugs.
The profile for suicide by firearm is basically the opposite of this. Nobody ever wants to talk about suicide when they talk about guns. I don’t know why.
Donald, thank you for a sensible post, your comments here on the CA doc’s video was far more sane then my own.
Basically, my issue with folks who make a huge point about how low the rate of death is, is that we’re still looking at 60K people dead in the US, in a couple of months, from one cause. I guess it’s better that it’s a low rate of mortality than if it isn’t, but that hardly seems to justify a lack of caution.
NYC is also a sore point for me. It’s where I was born, it’s the city I grew up in and around. Everybody freaking hates the place – like really hates the place – except when they want to put a Twin Towers bumper sticker on their car. Right? We’ve heard a ton of “Yeah, but that’s just NYC” talk regarding the virus. So hell yeah, it’s just NYC, and in NYC they’ve been stacking dead people in refrigerator trucks because the morgues are overloaded. An ER doc killed herself last week or so.
Maybe just be glad it’s not your city.
Gun violence varies greatly in the US with most of it in large inter cities and a lot of it related to the war on drugs.
The profile for suicide by firearm is basically the opposite of this. Nobody ever wants to talk about suicide when they talk about guns. I don’t know why.
Donald, thank you for a sensible post, your comments here on the CA doc’s video was far more sane then my own.
Basically, my issue with folks who make a huge point about how low the rate of death is, is that we’re still looking at 60K people dead in the US, in a couple of months, from one cause. I guess it’s better that it’s a low rate of mortality than if it isn’t, but that hardly seems to justify a lack of caution.
NYC is also a sore point for me. It’s where I was born, it’s the city I grew up in and around. Everybody freaking hates the place – like really hates the place – except when they want to put a Twin Towers bumper sticker on their car. Right? We’ve heard a ton of “Yeah, but that’s just NYC” talk regarding the virus. So hell yeah, it’s just NYC, and in NYC they’ve been stacking dead people in refrigerator trucks because the morgues are overloaded. An ER doc killed herself last week or so.
Maybe just be glad it’s not your city.
We’ve heard a ton of “Yeah, but that’s just NYC” talk regarding the virus. So hell yeah, it’s just NYC, and in NYC they’ve been stacking dead people in refrigerator trucks because the morgues are overloaded.
What people somehow miss is that we hear a lot about NYC because it’s a media center. Of course the national news shows talk about it; it’s the daily life of the people doing the broadcasts!
In fact, there are other places in the US which have equally bad (per capita) problems. They just don’t have the big megaphone. (Some of them also suffer from having governors who are idiots and in denial.)
We’ve heard a ton of “Yeah, but that’s just NYC” talk regarding the virus. So hell yeah, it’s just NYC, and in NYC they’ve been stacking dead people in refrigerator trucks because the morgues are overloaded.
What people somehow miss is that we hear a lot about NYC because it’s a media center. Of course the national news shows talk about it; it’s the daily life of the people doing the broadcasts!
In fact, there are other places in the US which have equally bad (per capita) problems. They just don’t have the big megaphone. (Some of them also suffer from having governors who are idiots and in denial.)
It applies best in narrow ways, typically involving math and science, but the more complex the problem is the less valid it is to talk about expertise.
It’s in the social sciences, like economics, that you can lay the experts end to end and never come to a conclusion.
There seems to be a cultural component of a country’s homicide/suicide rate ratios. European and Asian countries tend to have lower ratios than Latin American and Middle Eastern countries. But there also appears to a positive correlation between a low ration and how free a country is.
List of countries by intentional death rate
It applies best in narrow ways, typically involving math and science, but the more complex the problem is the less valid it is to talk about expertise.
It’s in the social sciences, like economics, that you can lay the experts end to end and never come to a conclusion.
There seems to be a cultural component of a country’s homicide/suicide rate ratios. European and Asian countries tend to have lower ratios than Latin American and Middle Eastern countries. But there also appears to a positive correlation between a low ration and how free a country is.
List of countries by intentional death rate
No, we hear about NYC because it alone accounts for as many cases and deaths as some countries. Because it is the center of the contagion in the NE and because it represents the US to the world in ways few cities can claim.
It is the antithesis of how millions of people in the country want to live, and it’s on almost everyone’s bucket list of places to visit.
It is the epitome of how millions of other people want to live. Vibrant, busy, multicultural.
It is hated, and loved, by America.
It is no less tragic in NYC than Omaha, it just effects more people.
The mortality rate is important to watch, imo, for mental health reasons. As we continue to roll out more tests across the country all the graphs based on cases will continue to go up, dramatically. Having visibility to hospitalizations and mortality rate are going to be important in keeping some perspective. Simply from a mental health perspective.
No, we hear about NYC because it alone accounts for as many cases and deaths as some countries. Because it is the center of the contagion in the NE and because it represents the US to the world in ways few cities can claim.
It is the antithesis of how millions of people in the country want to live, and it’s on almost everyone’s bucket list of places to visit.
It is the epitome of how millions of other people want to live. Vibrant, busy, multicultural.
It is hated, and loved, by America.
It is no less tragic in NYC than Omaha, it just effects more people.
The mortality rate is important to watch, imo, for mental health reasons. As we continue to roll out more tests across the country all the graphs based on cases will continue to go up, dramatically. Having visibility to hospitalizations and mortality rate are going to be important in keeping some perspective. Simply from a mental health perspective.
Yes, it’s important to get an accurate understanding of the mortality rate. For all kinds of reasons.
Two dudes in CA talking about hey, the models are wrong, not that many people are dying, when something like 2000 people a day are dying of a single disease, rubs me the wrong way. It makes me angry, and sad, and it makes me shake my head because we’re unable as a nation to get the hell out of our way and deal with anything in a remotely effective way.
The businesses that are locked down tend to be those businesses where the risk is high, and the overall necessity of that work being done is relatively low. That puts a lot of people out of work, and is going to cause a big dip in our economic outlook for some period of time. Opening those businesses to “save the economy” means putting people at risk, to do work that is relatively less essential. I’m not minimizing the value of what they do, I just mean they aren’t keeping the lights on and the water running.
What I take away from the arguments pro and con, and who the people are that are making the arguments pro and con, is that we’re gonna end up making a lot of people who don’t have a lot of choice about it go back to work in environments that are going to put them at risk of getting sick, from COVID. Because some people, many of whom have bags of money, don’t want to lose money.
And that seems wrong. To me.
Hopefully I’m done with this topic, it’s profoundly depressing. I’m gonna go do something else for a while.
Yes, it’s important to get an accurate understanding of the mortality rate. For all kinds of reasons.
Two dudes in CA talking about hey, the models are wrong, not that many people are dying, when something like 2000 people a day are dying of a single disease, rubs me the wrong way. It makes me angry, and sad, and it makes me shake my head because we’re unable as a nation to get the hell out of our way and deal with anything in a remotely effective way.
The businesses that are locked down tend to be those businesses where the risk is high, and the overall necessity of that work being done is relatively low. That puts a lot of people out of work, and is going to cause a big dip in our economic outlook for some period of time. Opening those businesses to “save the economy” means putting people at risk, to do work that is relatively less essential. I’m not minimizing the value of what they do, I just mean they aren’t keeping the lights on and the water running.
What I take away from the arguments pro and con, and who the people are that are making the arguments pro and con, is that we’re gonna end up making a lot of people who don’t have a lot of choice about it go back to work in environments that are going to put them at risk of getting sick, from COVID. Because some people, many of whom have bags of money, don’t want to lose money.
And that seems wrong. To me.
Hopefully I’m done with this topic, it’s profoundly depressing. I’m gonna go do something else for a while.
Marty, you never came back on the mortality stats from Germany. You did say they did better on earlier testing etc, but at that stage you did not know about their startlingly low mortality rate from the virus. Can you see why people are so down on the US (and the UK) response, based on the timing of the testing, the efficiency of the rollout of the testing and tracing (as russell originally proposed) and consequently their mortality stats? Germany, of course and FWIW, is led by a sensible middle-aged ex-scientist who was not playing politics.
Marty, you never came back on the mortality stats from Germany. You did say they did better on earlier testing etc, but at that stage you did not know about their startlingly low mortality rate from the virus. Can you see why people are so down on the US (and the UK) response, based on the timing of the testing, the efficiency of the rollout of the testing and tracing (as russell originally proposed) and consequently their mortality stats? Germany, of course and FWIW, is led by a sensible middle-aged ex-scientist who was not playing politics.
I also said I hadn’t been watching closely, by the time I got back the next day the thread had moved on. But no, not really. US is at 196, didnt really look at the UK. Germany is good at 80. If anything is good or bad. If you look at that metric across states it varies a lot.
So, no, I’m not sure that understand why anyone is down on the US. Unless you tell me that the middle aged ex scientist told the hospital system to start preparing then I’m not sure she gets a lot of credit for it. From the article I read the hospitals prepared early which rationally seems to have impacted the mortality rate.
Very much like SF shut down quickly and had one of the few systems in the country with experience in tracing. So better at the start.
South Korea had more recent experience so they fared much better, should they be complaing about Germanys response?
I do get why we should do the best each day and keep the lessons that may or may not be applicable to the next emergency.
I also said I hadn’t been watching closely, by the time I got back the next day the thread had moved on. But no, not really. US is at 196, didnt really look at the UK. Germany is good at 80. If anything is good or bad. If you look at that metric across states it varies a lot.
So, no, I’m not sure that understand why anyone is down on the US. Unless you tell me that the middle aged ex scientist told the hospital system to start preparing then I’m not sure she gets a lot of credit for it. From the article I read the hospitals prepared early which rationally seems to have impacted the mortality rate.
Very much like SF shut down quickly and had one of the few systems in the country with experience in tracing. So better at the start.
South Korea had more recent experience so they fared much better, should they be complaing about Germanys response?
I do get why we should do the best each day and keep the lessons that may or may not be applicable to the next emergency.
Popping in here, like Donald, outside of the topical flow to comment on what can or should be done about information and the internet.
I don’t know.
I taught a research class for a few terms a few years back that was set up to explore the information ecology of the Web. (Interesting class to teach to a highly mixed class with sometimes over 50% Chinese internationals, especially at the height of the anti-vax autism backlash.) Before that I was teaching a cyberpunk lit class where a number of the class readings were techno-libertarian and cypherpunk manifestos.
I’ve read widely on both sides and have played devil’s advocate to students arguing for “the right to offend” as well as those arguing for governmental regulation of the Internet on public health grounds.
I still don’t know how to thread that needle.
What we need is more, better, slower deliberation and a media that works actively against the click-bait media environment that is geared towards blowing past reason and deliberation and straight through to conditioned limbic response.
I want slow media and slow news and deliberative spaces. I want a greater public recognition of expertise and of methodology – to understand the edges of what is and what can be known and how to check one’s own assumptions.
I also believe that these things can only exist in speculative fiction at this time. We aren’t (yet – and maybe won’t ever be) that people.
I’m still a monthly member of the EFF and of the ACLU. I think freedom of speech and of the press are important. Sometimes it’s more important than having the right information. Sometimes it’s less.
Deciding which is which is art, not science.
What can I say? I’m a digital humanist.
Shit’s complicated.
Popping in here, like Donald, outside of the topical flow to comment on what can or should be done about information and the internet.
I don’t know.
I taught a research class for a few terms a few years back that was set up to explore the information ecology of the Web. (Interesting class to teach to a highly mixed class with sometimes over 50% Chinese internationals, especially at the height of the anti-vax autism backlash.) Before that I was teaching a cyberpunk lit class where a number of the class readings were techno-libertarian and cypherpunk manifestos.
I’ve read widely on both sides and have played devil’s advocate to students arguing for “the right to offend” as well as those arguing for governmental regulation of the Internet on public health grounds.
I still don’t know how to thread that needle.
What we need is more, better, slower deliberation and a media that works actively against the click-bait media environment that is geared towards blowing past reason and deliberation and straight through to conditioned limbic response.
I want slow media and slow news and deliberative spaces. I want a greater public recognition of expertise and of methodology – to understand the edges of what is and what can be known and how to check one’s own assumptions.
I also believe that these things can only exist in speculative fiction at this time. We aren’t (yet – and maybe won’t ever be) that people.
I’m still a monthly member of the EFF and of the ACLU. I think freedom of speech and of the press are important. Sometimes it’s more important than having the right information. Sometimes it’s less.
Deciding which is which is art, not science.
What can I say? I’m a digital humanist.
Shit’s complicated.
FWIW, Reade now says she’s received death threats.
well ain’t that America, home of the free, baby.
FWIW, Reade now says she’s received death threats.
well ain’t that America, home of the free, baby.
But no, not really. US is at 196
you can probably double that.
But no, not really. US is at 196
you can probably double that.
you can probably double that.
But those would be experts saying that.
you can probably double that.
But those would be experts saying that.
one reason the US response sucks is that we’re not testing. we’re not testing the dead, we’re not testing the living. we don’t even have the tests.
we don’t have the capacity to test everyone, even for things like temp and blood oxygen levels regularly, so we can maybe catch people when they start to become symptomatic. which wouldn’t even address asymptomatic carriers.
and there’s no way to safely “re-open” if we can’t tell who has it or not.
one reason the US response sucks is that we’re not testing. we’re not testing the dead, we’re not testing the living. we don’t even have the tests.
we don’t have the capacity to test everyone, even for things like temp and blood oxygen levels regularly, so we can maybe catch people when they start to become symptomatic. which wouldn’t even address asymptomatic carriers.
and there’s no way to safely “re-open” if we can’t tell who has it or not.
Just reported deaths, which can be taken as a minimum, in my home state between April 1st and May 1st were a bit over 7000. That’s getting pretty close to a tenth of a percent of the entire population of New Jersey – in a f**king month!
Just reported deaths, which can be taken as a minimum, in my home state between April 1st and May 1st were a bit over 7000. That’s getting pretty close to a tenth of a percent of the entire population of New Jersey – in a f**king month!
A week or two ago, I questioned the value of testing as the panacea. I still believe that, although testing would help, it also needs to be accompanied by quarantining positive people, and contact tracing.
With testing only, responsible people would self-quarantine, and that would be very helpful, since most adults are responsible. But how many people would not be tested, and would not self-quarantine? How many positively tested people would return to work if they still would not be compensated?
I have changed my mind to believe that testing is a necessary first step.
A week or two ago, I questioned the value of testing as the panacea. I still believe that, although testing would help, it also needs to be accompanied by quarantining positive people, and contact tracing.
With testing only, responsible people would self-quarantine, and that would be very helpful, since most adults are responsible. But how many people would not be tested, and would not self-quarantine? How many positively tested people would return to work if they still would not be compensated?
I have changed my mind to believe that testing is a necessary first step.
CharlesWT wrote
WDS
Which is why you simply post excerpts of articles with no analysis of why you think they are right or wrong? The reason you get proposals for censorship is because that kind of behavior…
This isn’t to deny Donald’s reasonable post, it is just to note that your citing of it it is so you can avoid looking at your own behavior.
CharlesWT wrote
WDS
Which is why you simply post excerpts of articles with no analysis of why you think they are right or wrong? The reason you get proposals for censorship is because that kind of behavior…
This isn’t to deny Donald’s reasonable post, it is just to note that your citing of it it is so you can avoid looking at your own behavior.
Testing, in itself, isn’t a panacea. But without testing, your only real alternative is to try to vaccinate the entire population. (That, or just let everybody get it and live or die in the best Dark Ages fashion.) Oh yes, and that includes vaccinating the anti-vaxers. Probably at gun point, since on past evidence rational argument isn’t going to work on them.
Testing, in itself, isn’t a panacea. But without testing, your only real alternative is to try to vaccinate the entire population. (That, or just let everybody get it and live or die in the best Dark Ages fashion.) Oh yes, and that includes vaccinating the anti-vaxers. Probably at gun point, since on past evidence rational argument isn’t going to work on them.
Sapient:
“If you think KNOWLEDGE is expensive,
try IGNORANCE”
The folks in GA are learning the cost of ignorance. Maybe.
Sapient:
“If you think KNOWLEDGE is expensive,
try IGNORANCE”
The folks in GA are learning the cost of ignorance. Maybe.
The folks in GA are learning the cost of ignorance. Maybe.
Sad to say, there are folks in GA who already know. They voted (or tried to vote) for Stacey Abrams. The other folks may learn. Probs not.
The folks in GA are learning the cost of ignorance. Maybe.
Sad to say, there are folks in GA who already know. They voted (or tried to vote) for Stacey Abrams. The other folks may learn. Probs not.
Mainly, but not exclusively, for Marty.
OK, I freely admit that, as well as knowing nothing about economics, I am practically innumerate, unlike the rest of you. Our educational system allows people to drop all maths and science pretty early, with predictable results (see C P Snow’s The Two Cultures, about the lamentable split between arts specialists and science specialists). Anyway, that’s enough disclaimer about my ignorance. So one of you boffins tell me how I’m wrong:
US population 2020: approx 331,002,651
US deaths from Covid approx 66,746
German population 2020 approx 83,783,942
German deaths from Covid approx 6812
Am I going mad? Marty, they developed a test by mid January, and started aggressively testing, tracing and isolating, and treating cases very early in the symptoms. Do you think all this was independent of the political leadership?
Germany is led by a pragmatic middle-aged ex-scientist, who is about to retire and has not played politics.
The USA is led by Trump.
Marty, do these facts really not tell you anything? (Plus, I will not be offended, anybody else feel free to jump in and tell me what I’m not seeing.)
Mainly, but not exclusively, for Marty.
OK, I freely admit that, as well as knowing nothing about economics, I am practically innumerate, unlike the rest of you. Our educational system allows people to drop all maths and science pretty early, with predictable results (see C P Snow’s The Two Cultures, about the lamentable split between arts specialists and science specialists). Anyway, that’s enough disclaimer about my ignorance. So one of you boffins tell me how I’m wrong:
US population 2020: approx 331,002,651
US deaths from Covid approx 66,746
German population 2020 approx 83,783,942
German deaths from Covid approx 6812
Am I going mad? Marty, they developed a test by mid January, and started aggressively testing, tracing and isolating, and treating cases very early in the symptoms. Do you think all this was independent of the political leadership?
Germany is led by a pragmatic middle-aged ex-scientist, who is about to retire and has not played politics.
The USA is led by Trump.
Marty, do these facts really not tell you anything? (Plus, I will not be offended, anybody else feel free to jump in and tell me what I’m not seeing.)
And of course, none of that helps with the present, or with what should happen next. I’m just addressing Marty’s (and by extension the White House and the GOP’s) absurd pretence that the response to the pandemic in the US has not been especially bad, leading to the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people who were entitled to expect their country’s leadership to try and protect them.
And of course, none of that helps with the present, or with what should happen next. I’m just addressing Marty’s (and by extension the White House and the GOP’s) absurd pretence that the response to the pandemic in the US has not been especially bad, leading to the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people who were entitled to expect their country’s leadership to try and protect them.
Germany is led by a pragmatic middle-aged ex-scientist, who is about to retire and has not played politics.
A woman. An expert. How many fatal electability flaws do I need to name if she, instead, lived in the USA?
Germany is led by a pragmatic middle-aged ex-scientist, who is about to retire and has not played politics.
A woman. An expert. How many fatal electability flaws do I need to name if she, instead, lived in the USA?
GftNC: Plus, I will not be offended, anybody else feel free to jump in and tell me what I’m not seeing.
There is nothing to jump in about in terms of your numbers or your analysis. Sorry, but you said you wouldn’t be offended, so I will just say that the only thing you seem not to be seeing is the uselessness of butting your head up against a stone wall. You are not going to get what you’re looking for.
GftNC: Plus, I will not be offended, anybody else feel free to jump in and tell me what I’m not seeing.
There is nothing to jump in about in terms of your numbers or your analysis. Sorry, but you said you wouldn’t be offended, so I will just say that the only thing you seem not to be seeing is the uselessness of butting your head up against a stone wall. You are not going to get what you’re looking for.
I am not offended! I am grateful. I honestly assumed I’d made an error so obvious and childish that everyone was too embarrassed to tell me about it.
Trump stands there and tells the American public how brilliantly he has handled the pandemic, and how well it’s all going compared to other countries. And, apparently, lots of them believe it. Marty dislikes Trump, so he has no incentive to go along with it, or even think the US response has been sort-of-OK, and yet still he denies the plain truth. I am at a loss. And stubborn 🙂
But thank you, Janie.
I am not offended! I am grateful. I honestly assumed I’d made an error so obvious and childish that everyone was too embarrassed to tell me about it.
Trump stands there and tells the American public how brilliantly he has handled the pandemic, and how well it’s all going compared to other countries. And, apparently, lots of them believe it. Marty dislikes Trump, so he has no incentive to go along with it, or even think the US response has been sort-of-OK, and yet still he denies the plain truth. I am at a loss. And stubborn 🙂
But thank you, Janie.
GftNc,
The deaths per million for each is in the table at Worldometer. 81 for Germany, 206 for the US as of today.Getmany has kept its number down, its close to the best on large western countries. Germany also had an advantage that I had forgotten, they have decentralized healthcare, on the testing lead they had:
“They could do this in part because Germany doesn’t have a centralized diagnostic system so labs around the country were free to establish tests.” In fact, as of April 2, private labs in Germany have helped the country test 1 million people for COVID-19. ”
From here: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-germany-has-a-low-covid-19-mortality-rate-2020-4?amp
It seems Germany has done well so far, but the difference seems to be in the number of hospital beds available, which does far exceed anyone else in the West.
GftNc,
The deaths per million for each is in the table at Worldometer. 81 for Germany, 206 for the US as of today.Getmany has kept its number down, its close to the best on large western countries. Germany also had an advantage that I had forgotten, they have decentralized healthcare, on the testing lead they had:
“They could do this in part because Germany doesn’t have a centralized diagnostic system so labs around the country were free to establish tests.” In fact, as of April 2, private labs in Germany have helped the country test 1 million people for COVID-19. ”
From here: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-germany-has-a-low-covid-19-mortality-rate-2020-4?amp
It seems Germany has done well so far, but the difference seems to be in the number of hospital beds available, which does far exceed anyone else in the West.
they have decentralized healthcare
and universal.
we – the US – have 4% of the population of the world.
we have a third of the COVID-19 cases and a quarter of the fatalities.
per Janie, I expect nothing of this exchange, I just feel obliged to lay out the most obvious and basic of data points.
they have decentralized healthcare
and universal.
we – the US – have 4% of the population of the world.
we have a third of the COVID-19 cases and a quarter of the fatalities.
per Janie, I expect nothing of this exchange, I just feel obliged to lay out the most obvious and basic of data points.
Say what you want about billionaires, but at least if you’re a billionaire, you can choose what policies go forward. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/05/02/bill-gates-coronavirus-science/
Yes, my ideal is that we have a vibrant democracy, with government (we the people) funding the projects we believe in. Sad that we couldn’t keep it.
Say what you want about billionaires, but at least if you’re a billionaire, you can choose what policies go forward. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/05/02/bill-gates-coronavirus-science/
Yes, my ideal is that we have a vibrant democracy, with government (we the people) funding the projects we believe in. Sad that we couldn’t keep it.
Graphs in “For hsh” updated to today, including revised UK numbers.
Graphs in “For hsh” updated to today, including revised UK numbers.
If the trail of bodies isn’t persuasive, perhaps the ROI will.
Make of it what you will.
If the trail of bodies isn’t persuasive, perhaps the ROI will.
Make of it what you will.
What are ya’ll expecting from this exchange? I went and looked at the facts, read the details of what happened to date in Germany, agreed with GftNC that they have achieved a better mortality rate than anyone in the west. Their tests per million are at 30k most everyone else is around 20k,
I looked at why that was and saw that their were a couple of key things that helped that.
GftNC asked me specifically about Germany. I looked at Germany. I posted a link that discussed all of that.
GftNC, did I address what you asked?
What are ya’ll expecting from this exchange? I went and looked at the facts, read the details of what happened to date in Germany, agreed with GftNC that they have achieved a better mortality rate than anyone in the west. Their tests per million are at 30k most everyone else is around 20k,
I looked at why that was and saw that their were a couple of key things that helped that.
GftNC asked me specifically about Germany. I looked at Germany. I posted a link that discussed all of that.
GftNC, did I address what you asked?
If the trail of bodies isn’t persuasive, perhaps the ROI will.
Likely not. Because those making the worst decisions seem to work on extraordinarily short planning horizons. What would leave them in a better position a year or more out is a total irrelevance. What would (maybe!) look better in 3 weeks is apparently all-important.
If their constituents have sufficiently short memories, and adequate blindness when presented with comparisons to politicians who behaved differently? Their approach may even work out for them. If not for many of those who live there — AKA “the marks.”
If the trail of bodies isn’t persuasive, perhaps the ROI will.
Likely not. Because those making the worst decisions seem to work on extraordinarily short planning horizons. What would leave them in a better position a year or more out is a total irrelevance. What would (maybe!) look better in 3 weeks is apparently all-important.
If their constituents have sufficiently short memories, and adequate blindness when presented with comparisons to politicians who behaved differently? Their approach may even work out for them. If not for many of those who live there — AKA “the marks.”
What are ya’ll expecting from this exchange? I went and looked at the facts, read the details of what happened to date in Germany, agreed with GftNC that they have achieved a better mortality rate than anyone in the west. Their tests per million are at 30k most everyone else is around 20k,
for reference
So, no, I’m not sure that understand why anyone is down on the US. Unless you tell me that the middle aged ex scientist told the hospital system to start preparing then I’m not sure she gets a lot of credit for it. From the article I read the hospitals prepared early which rationally seems to have impacted the mortality rate.
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
Martin Luther King
What are ya’ll expecting from this exchange? I went and looked at the facts, read the details of what happened to date in Germany, agreed with GftNC that they have achieved a better mortality rate than anyone in the west. Their tests per million are at 30k most everyone else is around 20k,
for reference
So, no, I’m not sure that understand why anyone is down on the US. Unless you tell me that the middle aged ex scientist told the hospital system to start preparing then I’m not sure she gets a lot of credit for it. From the article I read the hospitals prepared early which rationally seems to have impacted the mortality rate.
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
Martin Luther King
Why should e.g. Big Meat companies worry about their workers dying like flies? If their profits go down, they’ll get a bailout. A simple result from their wise investment in (mostly GOP) politicians.
Btw, Jabbabonk can force the meat plants to stay open but could he also (legally) force the workers to show up?
Why should e.g. Big Meat companies worry about their workers dying like flies? If their profits go down, they’ll get a bailout. A simple result from their wise investment in (mostly GOP) politicians.
Btw, Jabbabonk can force the meat plants to stay open but could he also (legally) force the workers to show up?
Hartmut, IANAL, but the Defense Production Act does mandate penalties for anyone who “willfully fails to perform any act required by the Defense Production Act” and they “may be charged with felony that results in a fine up to $10,000 or imprisoned for up to one year or both”
Hartmut, IANAL, but the Defense Production Act does mandate penalties for anyone who “willfully fails to perform any act required by the Defense Production Act” and they “may be charged with felony that results in a fine up to $10,000 or imprisoned for up to one year or both”
Ah, then the ideal solution would be to jail the unwilling workers, use them as prison labor at their original working place and confiscate their pay to pay for the fine.
And no one could REASONably complain since the workers had the choice whether to work as free persons or inmates.
Ah, then the ideal solution would be to jail the unwilling workers, use them as prison labor at their original working place and confiscate their pay to pay for the fine.
And no one could REASONably complain since the workers had the choice whether to work as free persons or inmates.
Seems like Germany also had lots of hospital beds available for pandemic patients.
Not sure how they avoided the pandemic of hospital “consolidation” that the US has been been infected with over the past decades.
“A Plague of Greedheads”, one might call it. Thullen seems to have a treatment plan. It involves giving shots. FDA non-approved, by highly effective!
Seems like Germany also had lots of hospital beds available for pandemic patients.
Not sure how they avoided the pandemic of hospital “consolidation” that the US has been been infected with over the past decades.
“A Plague of Greedheads”, one might call it. Thullen seems to have a treatment plan. It involves giving shots. FDA non-approved, by highly effective!
US deaths went up 2%, just yesterday.
now is not the time to reopen.
US deaths went up 2%, just yesterday.
now is not the time to reopen.
Thanks, lj, but I realise this one’s on me.
Marty, a selection from the history on this thread of our discussions, with my main message to you below:
That’s when I first posted Germany’s actual numbers, to which you did not respond.
And that’s when we started this very latest round.
The thing is, Marty, I see you as a good guy, my brother in Dylan-appreciation, and someone who is generally well-meaning toward (hu)mankind. I suppose, and you have been kind enough to forgive me for this, I also see you as an avatar for a certain kind of rightwinger: sensible and savvy enough to despise Trump, but unfortunately still vulnerable to being gaslit by him and his media enablers into thinking they are handling this no worse, and in fact better, than other nations.
In English law we have a concept of the “reasonable man”. E.g. Would the reasonable man, seeing this (whatever it is) have realised that x or y was a likely consequence. So, in addressing you as “the reasonable man”, I I do not aspire to change your political views en masse, but (perhaps indulging in magical thinking) I hope that if you can see how our criticism of the Trump administration response to the pandemic is more or less justified, then that may signal that other reasonable people might be able to be persuaded as well. And that, to me at least, implies that there is a chance , for some significant percentage of the people who currently more or less approve of his handling of the crisis, for them to examine the evidence from outside and conclude that actually, because of his and his administration’s actions, starting with the disbanding of the Pandemic Preparedness unit, tens of thousands of Americans, in a better-run country, would not have needed to die. And, significantly (which is why I brought up Germany) that there are better run capitalist countries with free presses examining their every move.
I don’t know if this is possible. But hope springs eternal (at least for now, at least til November).
Thanks, lj, but I realise this one’s on me.
Marty, a selection from the history on this thread of our discussions, with my main message to you below:
That’s when I first posted Germany’s actual numbers, to which you did not respond.
And that’s when we started this very latest round.
The thing is, Marty, I see you as a good guy, my brother in Dylan-appreciation, and someone who is generally well-meaning toward (hu)mankind. I suppose, and you have been kind enough to forgive me for this, I also see you as an avatar for a certain kind of rightwinger: sensible and savvy enough to despise Trump, but unfortunately still vulnerable to being gaslit by him and his media enablers into thinking they are handling this no worse, and in fact better, than other nations.
In English law we have a concept of the “reasonable man”. E.g. Would the reasonable man, seeing this (whatever it is) have realised that x or y was a likely consequence. So, in addressing you as “the reasonable man”, I I do not aspire to change your political views en masse, but (perhaps indulging in magical thinking) I hope that if you can see how our criticism of the Trump administration response to the pandemic is more or less justified, then that may signal that other reasonable people might be able to be persuaded as well. And that, to me at least, implies that there is a chance , for some significant percentage of the people who currently more or less approve of his handling of the crisis, for them to examine the evidence from outside and conclude that actually, because of his and his administration’s actions, starting with the disbanding of the Pandemic Preparedness unit, tens of thousands of Americans, in a better-run country, would not have needed to die. And, significantly (which is why I brought up Germany) that there are better run capitalist countries with free presses examining their every move.
I don’t know if this is possible. But hope springs eternal (at least for now, at least til November).
Snarki, and mercury free shots at that (unless not ATF compliant ones are used).
Snarki, and mercury free shots at that (unless not ATF compliant ones are used).
Btw, Jabbabonk can force the meat plants to stay open but could he also (legally) force the workers to show up?
It appears that Trump can’t force the packing plants to open. But neither can states and local jurisdictions force them to close. And if the employers are suited, The Labor Department will intervene on their behalf if they followed OSHA guidelines on safety.
Btw, Jabbabonk can force the meat plants to stay open but could he also (legally) force the workers to show up?
It appears that Trump can’t force the packing plants to open. But neither can states and local jurisdictions force them to close. And if the employers are suited, The Labor Department will intervene on their behalf if they followed OSHA guidelines on safety.
So I see I got so caught up, I couldn’t see the wood for the trees enough to put my central point.
Marty, the Trump administration has handled the pandemic very badly. Despite the responsibilities of the individual states, the Federal government has not done what they should do in such a disaster, either at the beginning of the crisis, or on an ongoing basis. They are incompetent, in and of themselves, compared to past administrations and compared to many other democratic nations, and they are lying to the American people about it every night. I am very much hoping you might be able to see and acknowledge this at some point, while not interpreting it as a blanket criticism of your entire political philosophy.
So I see I got so caught up, I couldn’t see the wood for the trees enough to put my central point.
Marty, the Trump administration has handled the pandemic very badly. Despite the responsibilities of the individual states, the Federal government has not done what they should do in such a disaster, either at the beginning of the crisis, or on an ongoing basis. They are incompetent, in and of themselves, compared to past administrations and compared to many other democratic nations, and they are lying to the American people about it every night. I am very much hoping you might be able to see and acknowledge this at some point, while not interpreting it as a blanket criticism of your entire political philosophy.
suitedsuedsuitedsuedif the employers are suited, The Labor Department will intervene on their behalf if they followed OSHA guidelines on safety.
Except that OSHA** regulations are being waived left and right. And note that’s regulations, not just guidelines.
Which ones seems to correlate rather closely with requests from campaign donors. Although, to be fair, there are also some cases where donors said DON’T waive the regulation (because it’s actually a good idea), but the true-believer libertarians did so anyway.
** Lots of others as well. Just to be clear.
if the employers are suited, The Labor Department will intervene on their behalf if they followed OSHA guidelines on safety.
Except that OSHA** regulations are being waived left and right. And note that’s regulations, not just guidelines.
Which ones seems to correlate rather closely with requests from campaign donors. Although, to be fair, there are also some cases where donors said DON’T waive the regulation (because it’s actually a good idea), but the true-believer libertarians did so anyway.
** Lots of others as well. Just to be clear.
In real life we have a concept that intelligent people can disagree without insulting each other. Constantly claiming I’m being gaslight, rather than I just disagree with the narrative built from the same facts. Germany did well but in terms of deaths per million the US is better than Spain, Italy. France. UK, and a long list of other countries and that varies widely from state to state in the US.
Trump is not a good guy. The US is a large country where the emergency response is centered at the state level. So the criticism of Trumps handling of the pandemic isnt based on a complete understanding of the way things are done.
Cities and counties declare emergencies and pay for state help. States do the same. The President, despite his blabbering, isnt empowered to shut down anything. The timing of the federal government’s reaction is driven by the CDC, which contributed to the delay, and outside that their reaction was not so different than governments in other major developed countries.
Some were better. Some worse. The narrative that we as a country really blew it comparatively isnt supported by the facts. I’ve said I think we should have responded 10 days earlier, but almost no government official in this country, or almost any other, reacted that soon.
I get why everyone wants to blame Trump. I dont like him either, but I like facts better. We’ve spent a week talking about Georgia reopening, but there are 27 states reopening, 7 of them with Democratic governors. But it’s all about GOP greed and stupidity in the news.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/reopening-america-see-what-states-across-u-s-are-starting-n1195676
And people keep bringing up the Pandemic Preparedness unit. I havent seen anywhere that Trump personally picked that unit to disband. In general cost cutting the people in that unit were reassigned, afaict, and it’s a good narrative, it’s like a CEO who makes a big investment right before a downturn, it’s easy to see in hindsight it wasnt a good idea.
So shorter. I think it’s a lot more complex than Trump and his administration handled it worse than a few countries. So I guess no, I’m not going to concede that the purposefully incendiary “people died who didnt have to” is an appropriate characterization. Every person who died was killed by a deadly virus that we have been unsuccessful so far in containing or treating adequately despite millions of people’s best efforts. We are improving on both of those every day.
In real life we have a concept that intelligent people can disagree without insulting each other. Constantly claiming I’m being gaslight, rather than I just disagree with the narrative built from the same facts. Germany did well but in terms of deaths per million the US is better than Spain, Italy. France. UK, and a long list of other countries and that varies widely from state to state in the US.
Trump is not a good guy. The US is a large country where the emergency response is centered at the state level. So the criticism of Trumps handling of the pandemic isnt based on a complete understanding of the way things are done.
Cities and counties declare emergencies and pay for state help. States do the same. The President, despite his blabbering, isnt empowered to shut down anything. The timing of the federal government’s reaction is driven by the CDC, which contributed to the delay, and outside that their reaction was not so different than governments in other major developed countries.
Some were better. Some worse. The narrative that we as a country really blew it comparatively isnt supported by the facts. I’ve said I think we should have responded 10 days earlier, but almost no government official in this country, or almost any other, reacted that soon.
I get why everyone wants to blame Trump. I dont like him either, but I like facts better. We’ve spent a week talking about Georgia reopening, but there are 27 states reopening, 7 of them with Democratic governors. But it’s all about GOP greed and stupidity in the news.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/reopening-america-see-what-states-across-u-s-are-starting-n1195676
And people keep bringing up the Pandemic Preparedness unit. I havent seen anywhere that Trump personally picked that unit to disband. In general cost cutting the people in that unit were reassigned, afaict, and it’s a good narrative, it’s like a CEO who makes a big investment right before a downturn, it’s easy to see in hindsight it wasnt a good idea.
So shorter. I think it’s a lot more complex than Trump and his administration handled it worse than a few countries. So I guess no, I’m not going to concede that the purposefully incendiary “people died who didnt have to” is an appropriate characterization. Every person who died was killed by a deadly virus that we have been unsuccessful so far in containing or treating adequately despite millions of people’s best efforts. We are improving on both of those every day.
A few typos, based on an INcomplete understanding is the most important.
A few typos, based on an INcomplete understanding is the most important.
Marty, I won’t go on and on, about how for example the US started on its curve later than the other countries you mention in your latest, including Germany (I am quoting a more numerate friend!). But this is just to say that whatever you think, I am not intending to insult you by saying you have been gaslit, nor am I doing so in effect. It is a fact that people can be gaslit, despite their intelligence and best intentions. Whatever we say, the chips will fall where they may, and I am going to try to give up on magical thinking. To quote russell: Peace out.
Marty, I won’t go on and on, about how for example the US started on its curve later than the other countries you mention in your latest, including Germany (I am quoting a more numerate friend!). But this is just to say that whatever you think, I am not intending to insult you by saying you have been gaslit, nor am I doing so in effect. It is a fact that people can be gaslit, despite their intelligence and best intentions. Whatever we say, the chips will fall where they may, and I am going to try to give up on magical thinking. To quote russell: Peace out.
The US is a large country where the emergency response is centered at the state level. So the criticism of Trumps handling of the pandemic isnt based on a complete understanding of the way things are done.
And yet every time there is a hurricane or an earthquake, there’s FEMA. Not, admittedly, always perfectly adept (see Hurricane Katrina). But Federal help routinely expected.
The US is a large country where the emergency response is centered at the state level. So the criticism of Trumps handling of the pandemic isnt based on a complete understanding of the way things are done.
And yet every time there is a hurricane or an earthquake, there’s FEMA. Not, admittedly, always perfectly adept (see Hurricane Katrina). But Federal help routinely expected.
Perhaps a bit off topic, but this is a very good read for a lazy Sunday…more about how we got to where we are.
Perhaps a bit off topic, but this is a very good read for a lazy Sunday…more about how we got to where we are.
Ferchristsake, if you can’t see that the buffoon in the White House has been winging it from one day to the next, saying inane and contradictory things, there’s no hope. There’s been a complete lack of meaningful leadership from the president. And that’s the f**king job.
Georgia? The guy who found out asymptomatic spread was a thing a month after it was common knowledge? He’s the one you want to defend? Please.
Ferchristsake, if you can’t see that the buffoon in the White House has been winging it from one day to the next, saying inane and contradictory things, there’s no hope. There’s been a complete lack of meaningful leadership from the president. And that’s the f**king job.
Georgia? The guy who found out asymptomatic spread was a thing a month after it was common knowledge? He’s the one you want to defend? Please.
“I like facts better.”
Assertions pulled out of one’s ass are not facts. Most people here know that, it’s apparently news to Marty.
The US is a large country where the emergency response is centered at the state level. So the criticism of Trumps handling of the pandemic isnt based on a complete understanding of the way things are done.
This is one of the most idiotic things ever written on this blog, and that’s saying something. And it’s wrong on more than one level, not that it would make any difference to list them. But it echoes this from much earlier in the thread:
Some numbers are better some places, but no one reacted substantially quicker than we did, and by we basically the earliest governors, which is where these battles are fought in the US.
The idea that the US is to be judged by a handful of sane goverors, and that “we,” meaning the US as a whole, are interchangeable with one state or another, and that we can just wave our hand and set aside the malevolent, murderous incompetence of the current administration, is just laughable.
And that’s to say nothing about the patent detachment from reality of asserting that the US reacted about as quickly as anyone else.
Much earlier there was this, in an exchange with GftNC about Germany:
I read that, and the testing is great. The logic, and I have only generally followed their current mortality,seems backwards. The had lots of tests, thus lots of cases. The mortality rate was in line with other places in deaths per million population.
(My bold.) I gave some numbers that made the out-of-Marty’s-ass nature of that assertion obvious, and GftNC challenged him (repeatedly, IIRC) to address the discrepancy.
Marty ignored the prodding until about half the blog asked him to address it, at which point came he back with (paraphrasing) “Oh, I looked into it, and they did pretty well. But even so, the US is better than [some other list of countries].”
Not one word of acknowledgment, in response to GftNC’s persistent graciousness and attempts to give him the benefit of the doubt (which he wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole), admitting and apologizing for the about-face from assertions-about-Germany-pulled-out-of-his-ass to some attempt to actually find information that’s publicly available and part of consensus reality among intelligent people. Which, when he found it, and found that it contradicted his out-of-rear-end assertion, required a quick change of subject to another over-simplified pronouncement about the US.
I meant to stay out of this, but I thought GftNC’s good will and graciousness shouldn’t go unacknowledged. She doesn’t deserve the slap-back of pure begrudgery that she got.
GftNC — if it’s any consolation — and there isn’t a lot of consolation to be had these days, I recognize — your magical thinking as such may be unproductive, but I don’t actually think you can measure our (the general “our”) chances of getting out of this mess by the yardstick of how impenetrable Marty’s…armor…is.
“I like facts better.”
Assertions pulled out of one’s ass are not facts. Most people here know that, it’s apparently news to Marty.
The US is a large country where the emergency response is centered at the state level. So the criticism of Trumps handling of the pandemic isnt based on a complete understanding of the way things are done.
This is one of the most idiotic things ever written on this blog, and that’s saying something. And it’s wrong on more than one level, not that it would make any difference to list them. But it echoes this from much earlier in the thread:
Some numbers are better some places, but no one reacted substantially quicker than we did, and by we basically the earliest governors, which is where these battles are fought in the US.
The idea that the US is to be judged by a handful of sane goverors, and that “we,” meaning the US as a whole, are interchangeable with one state or another, and that we can just wave our hand and set aside the malevolent, murderous incompetence of the current administration, is just laughable.
And that’s to say nothing about the patent detachment from reality of asserting that the US reacted about as quickly as anyone else.
Much earlier there was this, in an exchange with GftNC about Germany:
I read that, and the testing is great. The logic, and I have only generally followed their current mortality,seems backwards. The had lots of tests, thus lots of cases. The mortality rate was in line with other places in deaths per million population.
(My bold.) I gave some numbers that made the out-of-Marty’s-ass nature of that assertion obvious, and GftNC challenged him (repeatedly, IIRC) to address the discrepancy.
Marty ignored the prodding until about half the blog asked him to address it, at which point came he back with (paraphrasing) “Oh, I looked into it, and they did pretty well. But even so, the US is better than [some other list of countries].”
Not one word of acknowledgment, in response to GftNC’s persistent graciousness and attempts to give him the benefit of the doubt (which he wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole), admitting and apologizing for the about-face from assertions-about-Germany-pulled-out-of-his-ass to some attempt to actually find information that’s publicly available and part of consensus reality among intelligent people. Which, when he found it, and found that it contradicted his out-of-rear-end assertion, required a quick change of subject to another over-simplified pronouncement about the US.
I meant to stay out of this, but I thought GftNC’s good will and graciousness shouldn’t go unacknowledged. She doesn’t deserve the slap-back of pure begrudgery that she got.
GftNC — if it’s any consolation — and there isn’t a lot of consolation to be had these days, I recognize — your magical thinking as such may be unproductive, but I don’t actually think you can measure our (the general “our”) chances of getting out of this mess by the yardstick of how impenetrable Marty’s…armor…is.
2900 people in the US died of C19, Thursday.
re-open!
2900 people in the US died of C19, Thursday.
re-open!
The argument here got me curious, so I pulled up the Johns Hopkins mortality analysis page this morning (data current to yesterday) and scrolled down to the “Cases and mortality by country” table. If you look at the US, Canada, and big western European countries, there are three clusters: Germany/Canada, the other Europeans, and the US. Germany/Canada are doing well; the other Europeans are doing crappy; and the US is somewhere in between. We’re with Germany/Canada on case-fatality. Our deaths per 100,000 population is approx double Germany/Canada, but less than half the other big Europeans. Most cluster analysis limited to two groups would put us in the Germany/Canada group.
On the range of known outcomes for big rich social democracies, we could be doing a lot worse. And if we’re looking for how to do it, even Germany’s not in the same class with Japan and South Korea.
The argument here got me curious, so I pulled up the Johns Hopkins mortality analysis page this morning (data current to yesterday) and scrolled down to the “Cases and mortality by country” table. If you look at the US, Canada, and big western European countries, there are three clusters: Germany/Canada, the other Europeans, and the US. Germany/Canada are doing well; the other Europeans are doing crappy; and the US is somewhere in between. We’re with Germany/Canada on case-fatality. Our deaths per 100,000 population is approx double Germany/Canada, but less than half the other big Europeans. Most cluster analysis limited to two groups would put us in the Germany/Canada group.
On the range of known outcomes for big rich social democracies, we could be doing a lot worse. And if we’re looking for how to do it, even Germany’s not in the same class with Japan and South Korea.
There is a federal role in responding to public health emergencies, and are (or should be) federal resources and agencies responsible for carrying those responsibilities out. The federal response, under Trump and to no small degree because of Trump, has been profoundly incompetent. And, as a result, people have without a doubt contracted COVID, and some have died from it, who otherwise would not have.
Some states and cities have done a better job, some have done no better.
FWIW, if people pick on GA it’s because that state’s governor was not even aware that non-symptomatic people could spread the disease, and his choice of businesses to re-open are so freaking inappropriate as to be a bad joke, if anything about this was funny.
It’s entirely possible that there are (D) governors and mayors who are equally incompetent. A pox on their houses as well.
We – Americans – don’t even have a basic common understanding that public health is a thing, and that public action in the interest of general public health is legitimate. So we are unable to get the hell out of our own way when we are faced with things like this.
Nothing I’ve said in this comment is even worth debating, and I won’t debate it. People think what they want to think, I don’t have the time or interest in trying to persuade them otherwise.
In many states, lifting the lockdown on non-essential businesses will mean that people who don’t go to work will lose their unemployment status. Whether you, Marty, or anyone else thinks that should or should not happen is irrelevant. It will happen.
The practical result is that people will be required to choose between having no income, or returning to work in jobs that will put them at risk of contracting COVID. Whether that is what should happen or not is beside the point. It is what will happen.
Everybody would like to “re-open the economy”. We’d all like all of the businesses that are currently locked down to re-open. There are ways to do that minimize the risks to the people who work at those businesses. Those ways include testing, tracking, and isolation for people who are capable of transmitting the virus.
Test people who want to go to work. Not once, but regularly. If they are positive, they stay home in isolation, and we support them financially and medically while they are isolated. And if they are positive, reach out to people they have contacted and test them as well, with the same guarantees for support if they need to be isolated.
If that is present, it will be possible to re-open public life without undue risk. If it’s not, it won’t be. If we re-open public life without those measures, then we will see continued resurgences of COVID in areas that are re-opened. Which is what we see now, in areas that are re-opened.
If we actually thought of ourselves as a society, instead of an economy or a market, we would do the things necessary to make all of that happen. We would mobilize the resources to make them happen. These are not impossible things to do, and we have the resources to do them.
But, we won’t do them. Some individual places will – particular states or cities – and they will be hampered in their efforts to do so by the lack of concerted, effective leadership at the national level. They will be more or less successful. As a nation, we will not do them. Because, as a nation, we lack the sense of ourselves as a common society that would motivate us to do them.
We are going to half-ass this for the next year and a half, with some places re-opening and others not, with resurgences of COVID prompting some level of re-introductions of lockdown measures, like some incoherent national game of mole whack. People aren’t going to understand what is safe to do and what is not, so the public response will be a mix of people flocking back to things that actually aren’t safe yet, and people being reluctant to do things that maybe are safe, but they have no confidence about it, because the information needed to know it’s safe isn’t available.
We have the resources to make a pretty effective response to COVID. We are failing to make anything like an effective response to COVID. Because we have no shared belief in, or trust in, the institutions that would enable that response.
All of that makes me angry, but mostly profoundly sad. It makes me question the point of thinking about ourselves as a country.
We’ll get through it, it’s just gonna be kind of a mess, for months and months, maybe a year, possibly two. But probably something like a year, until enough people contract COVID to establish something like herd immunity, and/or until we have a vaccine. And then it will take us a while to pick up the pieces.
That’s what is in store for us, it seems to me.
Wash your hands, wear your mask, help your neighbors. Be patient, find things that give you some joy and focus on them. Take care of yourselves and the people around you.
Best of luck to us all.
There is a federal role in responding to public health emergencies, and are (or should be) federal resources and agencies responsible for carrying those responsibilities out. The federal response, under Trump and to no small degree because of Trump, has been profoundly incompetent. And, as a result, people have without a doubt contracted COVID, and some have died from it, who otherwise would not have.
Some states and cities have done a better job, some have done no better.
FWIW, if people pick on GA it’s because that state’s governor was not even aware that non-symptomatic people could spread the disease, and his choice of businesses to re-open are so freaking inappropriate as to be a bad joke, if anything about this was funny.
It’s entirely possible that there are (D) governors and mayors who are equally incompetent. A pox on their houses as well.
We – Americans – don’t even have a basic common understanding that public health is a thing, and that public action in the interest of general public health is legitimate. So we are unable to get the hell out of our own way when we are faced with things like this.
Nothing I’ve said in this comment is even worth debating, and I won’t debate it. People think what they want to think, I don’t have the time or interest in trying to persuade them otherwise.
In many states, lifting the lockdown on non-essential businesses will mean that people who don’t go to work will lose their unemployment status. Whether you, Marty, or anyone else thinks that should or should not happen is irrelevant. It will happen.
The practical result is that people will be required to choose between having no income, or returning to work in jobs that will put them at risk of contracting COVID. Whether that is what should happen or not is beside the point. It is what will happen.
Everybody would like to “re-open the economy”. We’d all like all of the businesses that are currently locked down to re-open. There are ways to do that minimize the risks to the people who work at those businesses. Those ways include testing, tracking, and isolation for people who are capable of transmitting the virus.
Test people who want to go to work. Not once, but regularly. If they are positive, they stay home in isolation, and we support them financially and medically while they are isolated. And if they are positive, reach out to people they have contacted and test them as well, with the same guarantees for support if they need to be isolated.
If that is present, it will be possible to re-open public life without undue risk. If it’s not, it won’t be. If we re-open public life without those measures, then we will see continued resurgences of COVID in areas that are re-opened. Which is what we see now, in areas that are re-opened.
If we actually thought of ourselves as a society, instead of an economy or a market, we would do the things necessary to make all of that happen. We would mobilize the resources to make them happen. These are not impossible things to do, and we have the resources to do them.
But, we won’t do them. Some individual places will – particular states or cities – and they will be hampered in their efforts to do so by the lack of concerted, effective leadership at the national level. They will be more or less successful. As a nation, we will not do them. Because, as a nation, we lack the sense of ourselves as a common society that would motivate us to do them.
We are going to half-ass this for the next year and a half, with some places re-opening and others not, with resurgences of COVID prompting some level of re-introductions of lockdown measures, like some incoherent national game of mole whack. People aren’t going to understand what is safe to do and what is not, so the public response will be a mix of people flocking back to things that actually aren’t safe yet, and people being reluctant to do things that maybe are safe, but they have no confidence about it, because the information needed to know it’s safe isn’t available.
We have the resources to make a pretty effective response to COVID. We are failing to make anything like an effective response to COVID. Because we have no shared belief in, or trust in, the institutions that would enable that response.
All of that makes me angry, but mostly profoundly sad. It makes me question the point of thinking about ourselves as a country.
We’ll get through it, it’s just gonna be kind of a mess, for months and months, maybe a year, possibly two. But probably something like a year, until enough people contract COVID to establish something like herd immunity, and/or until we have a vaccine. And then it will take us a while to pick up the pieces.
That’s what is in store for us, it seems to me.
Wash your hands, wear your mask, help your neighbors. Be patient, find things that give you some joy and focus on them. Take care of yourselves and the people around you.
Best of luck to us all.
what hsh said. Might have been better with one or two few f-bombs, but that’s just me….
what hsh said. Might have been better with one or two few f-bombs, but that’s just me….
sigh. the ‘preview’ button is there for a fucking reason, bobby.
sigh. the ‘preview’ button is there for a fucking reason, bobby.
Michael Cain — no doubt Japan and especially South Korea are amazing outliers when compared to US and European numbers.
On the other hand, though I may end up getting squashed for this, I don’t think you can just look at a table like the one you cited at a point in time and draw the conclusions you’re drawing. If you look at the Worldometer graphs of daily deaths, you’ll see that Germany and the US’s curves started rising at roughly the same time, while Italy’s was raging at least two weeks sooner. That makes a US/Germany comparison more valid than a one-point-in-time comparison of either one of them with Italy. I would like to do a graphic of all these curves lined up on top of each other, so you can see what I’m getting at, but I am going to win a battle with myself over it and go outside instead, at least for the moment. A sunny day in May is not to be wasted.
Shorter: the US deaths per million numbers seem very likely to catch up with those of countries like Spain and Italy where the curve started rising earlier. Germany’s, not so much.
Michael Cain — no doubt Japan and especially South Korea are amazing outliers when compared to US and European numbers.
On the other hand, though I may end up getting squashed for this, I don’t think you can just look at a table like the one you cited at a point in time and draw the conclusions you’re drawing. If you look at the Worldometer graphs of daily deaths, you’ll see that Germany and the US’s curves started rising at roughly the same time, while Italy’s was raging at least two weeks sooner. That makes a US/Germany comparison more valid than a one-point-in-time comparison of either one of them with Italy. I would like to do a graphic of all these curves lined up on top of each other, so you can see what I’m getting at, but I am going to win a battle with myself over it and go outside instead, at least for the moment. A sunny day in May is not to be wasted.
Shorter: the US deaths per million numbers seem very likely to catch up with those of countries like Spain and Italy where the curve started rising earlier. Germany’s, not so much.
Our deaths per 100,000 population is approx double Germany/Canada, but less than half the other big Europeans.
Look, I hate to say this, but our deaths per 100K population is, up to now, mostly based on outbreaks in a handful of places.
NYC, Boston, LA and San Francisco, south FL, WA. Averaged over the population of the whole country.
Maybe it’ll stay that way, and we’ll start to see the curve bend down in the next few weeks. Or, maybe we’re still early days.
Wash your hands, wear your mask, stay safe. Take care of yourselves.
Our deaths per 100,000 population is approx double Germany/Canada, but less than half the other big Europeans.
Look, I hate to say this, but our deaths per 100K population is, up to now, mostly based on outbreaks in a handful of places.
NYC, Boston, LA and San Francisco, south FL, WA. Averaged over the population of the whole country.
Maybe it’ll stay that way, and we’ll start to see the curve bend down in the next few weeks. Or, maybe we’re still early days.
Wash your hands, wear your mask, stay safe. Take care of yourselves.
Every person who died was killed by a deadly virus that we have been unsuccessful so far in containing or treating adequately despite millions of people’s best efforts.
Fox/GOP spent a month telling people there was no problem. then they spent a week or so pretending to care. now they’re telling people it’s over. right-wing militias are walking the streets, and storming capitol buildings, encouraged by Fox/GOP, spreading the disease and encouraging others to do the same.
that isn’t anybody’s “best effort”. it’s deliberately getting people sick in order to please the god of the ‘economy’, or to wank about “liberty”.
“people died who didnt have to” isn’t incendiary. it’s exactly what is happening.
Every person who died was killed by a deadly virus that we have been unsuccessful so far in containing or treating adequately despite millions of people’s best efforts.
Fox/GOP spent a month telling people there was no problem. then they spent a week or so pretending to care. now they’re telling people it’s over. right-wing militias are walking the streets, and storming capitol buildings, encouraged by Fox/GOP, spreading the disease and encouraging others to do the same.
that isn’t anybody’s “best effort”. it’s deliberately getting people sick in order to please the god of the ‘economy’, or to wank about “liberty”.
“people died who didnt have to” isn’t incendiary. it’s exactly what is happening.
https://digbysblog.net/2020/05/masks-are-a-communist-plot/
More later.
https://digbysblog.net/2020/05/masks-are-a-communist-plot/
More later.
Expect violence in the skies by asshole republican and conservative terrorists against flight personnel and passengers:
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3568001-two-u-s-airlines-require-face-coverings-on-flights
Especially on flights out of fascist red states airports.
Expect violence in the skies by asshole republican and conservative terrorists against flight personnel and passengers:
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3568001-two-u-s-airlines-require-face-coverings-on-flights
Especially on flights out of fascist red states airports.
Can anyone explain this?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/28/death-toll-coronavirus-estimate-214339
I think we’re going to hit 74,073 around the middle of the week. WTF? Are they counting on some more narrow basis?
Can anyone explain this?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/28/death-toll-coronavirus-estimate-214339
I think we’re going to hit 74,073 around the middle of the week. WTF? Are they counting on some more narrow basis?
How can you identify a republican conservative bank robber?
She’s the only person in the bank who’s NOT wearing a mask.
But she’s wearing camo and she magically thinks she’s invisible, like a killer virus.
The time has come:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpdhWDwvOVY&list=RDPpdhWDwvOVY&start_radio=1&t=4
How can you identify a republican conservative bank robber?
She’s the only person in the bank who’s NOT wearing a mask.
But she’s wearing camo and she magically thinks she’s invisible, like a killer virus.
The time has come:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpdhWDwvOVY&list=RDPpdhWDwvOVY&start_radio=1&t=4
Responding to hsh at 2:00, but with a disclaimer first: I didn’t look at the Politico article. I can’t read Politico’s stuff on my ad-free and otherwise buttoned-down browser, so I don’t read it. But I can offer a thought on IHME.
You can look at their graphs here. They have been roundly criticized from the start, including, here in Maine, for some numbers that IIRC suggested, right around the time of the first Maine COVID death, that eventually Maine would need more hospital beds than the entire state of Mass. (at 5x the population), or maybe even several states. It didn’t pass the straight face test, but it was publicized as if it was from people who knew something.
Sad to say, that kind of out of whack nonsense just feeds the skepticism about whether we need to trust “experts” at all.
If you scroll down to see their total death #, they show it leveling off like, tomorrow. I don’t think they’re taking a single nuance into account, like all the “reopenings” etc. Their projection numbers are dumber than mine. (Which I haven’t shared, and won’t, because they’re not meant to be connected to any reality. Sort of like libertarianism. 😉
My own obsession with following the numbers worries me, and I continually remind myself what’s behind them, and grieve. But I think we need to pay attention, because we can’t address a problem if we refuse to acknowledge what it is.
On the other hand, I’m starting to realize that there are a lot of people who don’t care how many people die — even, fair enough, if it’s their own loved ones, or themselves. Letting experts or the government tell you what to do is just too high a price to pay, even for life itself. That would be well and good if all those people would go live in a country by themselves instead of sticking around to kill the rest of us. Unfortunately, that not one of the options on offer.
Responding to hsh at 2:00, but with a disclaimer first: I didn’t look at the Politico article. I can’t read Politico’s stuff on my ad-free and otherwise buttoned-down browser, so I don’t read it. But I can offer a thought on IHME.
You can look at their graphs here. They have been roundly criticized from the start, including, here in Maine, for some numbers that IIRC suggested, right around the time of the first Maine COVID death, that eventually Maine would need more hospital beds than the entire state of Mass. (at 5x the population), or maybe even several states. It didn’t pass the straight face test, but it was publicized as if it was from people who knew something.
Sad to say, that kind of out of whack nonsense just feeds the skepticism about whether we need to trust “experts” at all.
If you scroll down to see their total death #, they show it leveling off like, tomorrow. I don’t think they’re taking a single nuance into account, like all the “reopenings” etc. Their projection numbers are dumber than mine. (Which I haven’t shared, and won’t, because they’re not meant to be connected to any reality. Sort of like libertarianism. 😉
My own obsession with following the numbers worries me, and I continually remind myself what’s behind them, and grieve. But I think we need to pay attention, because we can’t address a problem if we refuse to acknowledge what it is.
On the other hand, I’m starting to realize that there are a lot of people who don’t care how many people die — even, fair enough, if it’s their own loved ones, or themselves. Letting experts or the government tell you what to do is just too high a price to pay, even for life itself. That would be well and good if all those people would go live in a country by themselves instead of sticking around to kill the rest of us. Unfortunately, that not one of the options on offer.
On the other hand, I’m starting to realize that there are a lot of people who don’t care how many people die — even, fair enough, if it’s their own loved ones, or themselves. Letting experts or the government tell you what to do is just too high a price to pay, even for life itself.
In short, jihadists are not the only ones willing to embrace martyrdom for their beliefs. And to kill others for their beliefs as well.
On the other hand, I’m starting to realize that there are a lot of people who don’t care how many people die — even, fair enough, if it’s their own loved ones, or themselves. Letting experts or the government tell you what to do is just too high a price to pay, even for life itself.
In short, jihadists are not the only ones willing to embrace martyrdom for their beliefs. And to kill others for their beliefs as well.
This: “I don’t think you can just look at a table like the one you cited at a point in time and draw the conclusions…” and this: “Shorter: the US deaths per million numbers seem very likely to catch up with those of countries like Spain and Italy where the curve started rising earlier” sum up the comparison problem nicely.
US regions and European countries — to group similar sizes of populations — are each experiencing a process. Yes, they are at different points in that process. But none of them are through the process, which most probably lasts 18-24 months. So we’re arguing about forecasts, and the models underlying those forecasts.
The big number we’re missing because almost no countries/regions are doing sufficient testing is the actual infection rates past and present. The modeled results that have been shown most often have emphasized that the various isolation techniques spread the cases out over time. They don’t say that the total number of cases over the full length of the process will be decreased. Apparently the time when we can get anything like a SARS or MERS sort of outcome is past. (Total cases here meaning infected, including what appears to be a relatively high rate of asymptomatic cases.)
Assuming Germany and the US are going to end up with the same percentage of population having been infected after 24 months, then if Germany is doing better now it follows that the US will do better later. If the discussion is about whether Germany can come out at a better place when the process has run its course, that’s fine. But it’s a different argument, and undoubtedly will inevitably include discussion of whether Germany can adequately isolate itself from the rest of the world.
In terms of mortality rate in the US, I myself am more concerned with things like old folks homes that aren’t providing/getting proper care for their residents, that we are laying off nurses because elective medical procedures are down, and that for decades we have allowed the slow-motion collapse of our rural health care system.
This: “I don’t think you can just look at a table like the one you cited at a point in time and draw the conclusions…” and this: “Shorter: the US deaths per million numbers seem very likely to catch up with those of countries like Spain and Italy where the curve started rising earlier” sum up the comparison problem nicely.
US regions and European countries — to group similar sizes of populations — are each experiencing a process. Yes, they are at different points in that process. But none of them are through the process, which most probably lasts 18-24 months. So we’re arguing about forecasts, and the models underlying those forecasts.
The big number we’re missing because almost no countries/regions are doing sufficient testing is the actual infection rates past and present. The modeled results that have been shown most often have emphasized that the various isolation techniques spread the cases out over time. They don’t say that the total number of cases over the full length of the process will be decreased. Apparently the time when we can get anything like a SARS or MERS sort of outcome is past. (Total cases here meaning infected, including what appears to be a relatively high rate of asymptomatic cases.)
Assuming Germany and the US are going to end up with the same percentage of population having been infected after 24 months, then if Germany is doing better now it follows that the US will do better later. If the discussion is about whether Germany can come out at a better place when the process has run its course, that’s fine. But it’s a different argument, and undoubtedly will inevitably include discussion of whether Germany can adequately isolate itself from the rest of the world.
In terms of mortality rate in the US, I myself am more concerned with things like old folks homes that aren’t providing/getting proper care for their residents, that we are laying off nurses because elective medical procedures are down, and that for decades we have allowed the slow-motion collapse of our rural health care system.
Did I end up in the spam bucket? Short comment. No links. Anyway, thanks, JanieM. They predict deaths to end completely by June 30th.
wj: Nope. Don’t know what happened, but it wasn’t you getting classified as spam.
Did I end up in the spam bucket? Short comment. No links. Anyway, thanks, JanieM. They predict deaths to end completely by June 30th.
wj: Nope. Don’t know what happened, but it wasn’t you getting classified as spam.
The modeled results that have been shown most often have emphasized that the various isolation techniques spread the cases out over time. They don’t say that the total number of cases over the full length of the process will be decreased.
The eventual total number of cases won’t be impacted by things like isolation. What will be reduced is the number of fatalities. Because spreading out the time over which the cases occur reduces the stress on an already badly overburdened health care system.**
** Which is why one of the most mind-boggling things I’ve seen it the demand to restore elective/purely cosmetic plastic surgeries. On the grounds that it is an “essential activity.” Because “making people feel good is essential.”
The modeled results that have been shown most often have emphasized that the various isolation techniques spread the cases out over time. They don’t say that the total number of cases over the full length of the process will be decreased.
The eventual total number of cases won’t be impacted by things like isolation. What will be reduced is the number of fatalities. Because spreading out the time over which the cases occur reduces the stress on an already badly overburdened health care system.**
** Which is why one of the most mind-boggling things I’ve seen it the demand to restore elective/purely cosmetic plastic surgeries. On the grounds that it is an “essential activity.” Because “making people feel good is essential.”
User error.
User error.
I didn’t look at the Politico article. I can’t read Politico’s stuff on my ad-free and otherwise buttoned-down browser…
Wandering off-topic, the Firefox add-on named “Bypass Paywalls by Adam” seems to provide access to a surprising number of sites. I suppose it was inevitable that a majority of sites would wind up using a very small number of paywall software packages, so wide coverage is possible.
Re the WH model(s), I have been horribly frustrated by the fact that the government won’t show their work. They won’t say what the model is, they won’t say what values they’re using for parameters, they won’t say anything. Look, if it’s Jared’s wild-ass guess that’s okay, I just want to know that’s what it is.
I didn’t look at the Politico article. I can’t read Politico’s stuff on my ad-free and otherwise buttoned-down browser…
Wandering off-topic, the Firefox add-on named “Bypass Paywalls by Adam” seems to provide access to a surprising number of sites. I suppose it was inevitable that a majority of sites would wind up using a very small number of paywall software packages, so wide coverage is possible.
Re the WH model(s), I have been horribly frustrated by the fact that the government won’t show their work. They won’t say what the model is, they won’t say what values they’re using for parameters, they won’t say anything. Look, if it’s Jared’s wild-ass guess that’s okay, I just want to know that’s what it is.
Thanks, Michael, that’s a helpful analysis.
A lot hinges on this:
The modeled results that have been shown most often have emphasized that the various isolation techniques spread the cases out over time. They don’t say that the total number of cases over the full length of the process will be decreased.
…and we won’t know if that bit about the total number of cases is true until enough time has gone by. But South Korea’s staggeringly low death count suggests that there is a possibility of lowering the overall tally, and not just spreading it out for the sake of not overwhelming the health care system.
I hope we’re all around to find out, and still debating everything for years to come.
As for nursing homes — they have been heavily on my mind as well, for personal reasons. I might write a post about this at some point, but my mom died on Wednesday at the age of 96 and a half. She had been in a nursing home since mid-November but was perking up from the problems that had sent her there, to the point where she was hoping to be moved to an assisted living apartment soon.
Then other health problems snowballed, and — she left us.
The reason I bring it up is that her nursing home has had no cases of COVID-19, either staff or residents. The place is in a small town in Ohio, where the governor (Dewine, R, kudos to him) shut down very early. That may have had something to do with my mom’s facility’s situation, but on the other hand, another nursing home in the same town has had some cases, so I don’t know what their magic is. Ohio has done very well, partly, one might assume, because strong measures were taken early.
Besides worrying about nursing homes (and one in particular), we have several nurses in our family, one of whom is working directly with COVID-19 patients. So far so good.
As for my mom — she was unable to have visitors for the last six weeks of her life, until the last couple of days, when no more than three family members could come in, no more than two at a time. They coordinated with the hospice folks, who, thank goodness, were allowed to come in all along.
Thanks, Michael, that’s a helpful analysis.
A lot hinges on this:
The modeled results that have been shown most often have emphasized that the various isolation techniques spread the cases out over time. They don’t say that the total number of cases over the full length of the process will be decreased.
…and we won’t know if that bit about the total number of cases is true until enough time has gone by. But South Korea’s staggeringly low death count suggests that there is a possibility of lowering the overall tally, and not just spreading it out for the sake of not overwhelming the health care system.
I hope we’re all around to find out, and still debating everything for years to come.
As for nursing homes — they have been heavily on my mind as well, for personal reasons. I might write a post about this at some point, but my mom died on Wednesday at the age of 96 and a half. She had been in a nursing home since mid-November but was perking up from the problems that had sent her there, to the point where she was hoping to be moved to an assisted living apartment soon.
Then other health problems snowballed, and — she left us.
The reason I bring it up is that her nursing home has had no cases of COVID-19, either staff or residents. The place is in a small town in Ohio, where the governor (Dewine, R, kudos to him) shut down very early. That may have had something to do with my mom’s facility’s situation, but on the other hand, another nursing home in the same town has had some cases, so I don’t know what their magic is. Ohio has done very well, partly, one might assume, because strong measures were taken early.
Besides worrying about nursing homes (and one in particular), we have several nurses in our family, one of whom is working directly with COVID-19 patients. So far so good.
As for my mom — she was unable to have visitors for the last six weeks of her life, until the last couple of days, when no more than three family members could come in, no more than two at a time. They coordinated with the hospice folks, who, thank goodness, were allowed to come in all along.
Sorry, I was crossing up case and death tallies. I’ll leave it for the moment.
Sorry, I was crossing up case and death tallies. I’ll leave it for the moment.
Look, if it’s Jared’s wild-ass guess that’s okay
Sez you. (Sorry, joke, I did in fact understqand what you were saying!)
I should have thanked you earlier, Janie, for your kind words. These are hard times for the innumerate, I can tell you. Spare a thought, all of you, for your handicapped brethren.
Look, if it’s Jared’s wild-ass guess that’s okay
Sez you. (Sorry, joke, I did in fact understqand what you were saying!)
I should have thanked you earlier, Janie, for your kind words. These are hard times for the innumerate, I can tell you. Spare a thought, all of you, for your handicapped brethren.
“Bypass Paywalls by Adam”
Thanks, Michael, I’ll check that out.
For the record, I do kick in some $ directly to places I read often….I’d much rather do that than put up with ads.
“Bypass Paywalls by Adam”
Thanks, Michael, I’ll check that out.
For the record, I do kick in some $ directly to places I read often….I’d much rather do that than put up with ads.
What will be reduced is the number of fatalities. Because spreading out the time over which the cases occur reduces the stress on an already badly overburdened health care system.
Deferring cases also allows for the possibility that our president will get one of the things he is obviously desperate for: an effective treatment or a viable vaccine, either/both in time to make a difference before November. We are seeing some improvements in treatment that are no doubt helping at the margins — eg, how to recognize the cases where a ventilator is the wrong treatment.
What will be reduced is the number of fatalities. Because spreading out the time over which the cases occur reduces the stress on an already badly overburdened health care system.
Deferring cases also allows for the possibility that our president will get one of the things he is obviously desperate for: an effective treatment or a viable vaccine, either/both in time to make a difference before November. We are seeing some improvements in treatment that are no doubt helping at the margins — eg, how to recognize the cases where a ventilator is the wrong treatment.
Which of course crossed Janie’s about her mom. Sympathy and fellow-feeling to the max, it absolutely goes without saying.
Which of course crossed Janie’s about her mom. Sympathy and fellow-feeling to the max, it absolutely goes without saying.
I’m sorry about your mom, JanieM.
I’m sorry about your mom, JanieM.
Thanks, GftNC and hsh.
Thanks, GftNC and hsh.
But South Korea’s staggeringly low death count suggests that there is a possibility of lowering the overall tally, and not just spreading it out for the sake of not overwhelming the health care system.
Nothing like some recent prior experiences with outbreaks of new viruses to focus one’s attention.
We know how to get SK/Japanese type results: test, test, test, serious isolation for those infected or possibly infected, and really significant national isolation. In a country the size of the US, harsh restrictions on internal travel. As any number of political analysts have pointed out, reproducing the entire SK/Japanese approach in a western social democracy is impossible.
But South Korea’s staggeringly low death count suggests that there is a possibility of lowering the overall tally, and not just spreading it out for the sake of not overwhelming the health care system.
Nothing like some recent prior experiences with outbreaks of new viruses to focus one’s attention.
We know how to get SK/Japanese type results: test, test, test, serious isolation for those infected or possibly infected, and really significant national isolation. In a country the size of the US, harsh restrictions on internal travel. As any number of political analysts have pointed out, reproducing the entire SK/Japanese approach in a western social democracy is impossible.
As any number of political analysts have pointed out, reproducing the entire SK/Japanese approach in a western social democracy is impossible.
With all due respect, why not?
As any number of political analysts have pointed out, reproducing the entire SK/Japanese approach in a western social democracy is impossible.
With all due respect, why not?
My condolences to you, Janie, about your Mom.
My Uncle, the actor (not well known at all, but I saw him in movies and TV shows over the years, especially in the 1960s and early 1970s, in bit parts) passed on last week in a VA hospital just north of New York City.
He was 94, and the last of my parents’ generation.
He was also the soldier subject of a relatively familiar photograph from the Korean War.
There was some Covid-19 in the facility, but he did not experience any symptoms, so, it’s a mystery at this point.
But then I read that the very elderly, it has been observed, do not show the roster of symptoms observed in most of the infected population, but instead they express with disorientation and something called ‘blue toes”, which is when blue and black spots appear on their feet and toes, which is a sign that the oxygen levels in their blood supply has been severely compromised, even though their breathing may appear normal.
Anyway, we are in this together.
Be well.
My condolences to you, Janie, about your Mom.
My Uncle, the actor (not well known at all, but I saw him in movies and TV shows over the years, especially in the 1960s and early 1970s, in bit parts) passed on last week in a VA hospital just north of New York City.
He was 94, and the last of my parents’ generation.
He was also the soldier subject of a relatively familiar photograph from the Korean War.
There was some Covid-19 in the facility, but he did not experience any symptoms, so, it’s a mystery at this point.
But then I read that the very elderly, it has been observed, do not show the roster of symptoms observed in most of the infected population, but instead they express with disorientation and something called ‘blue toes”, which is when blue and black spots appear on their feet and toes, which is a sign that the oxygen levels in their blood supply has been severely compromised, even though their breathing may appear normal.
Anyway, we are in this together.
Be well.
sorry to hear that, JanieM.
sorry to hear that, JanieM.
Thanks, John.
Interesting observations about COVID-19 and the elderly. My mom chugged along for years with several chronic problems that worsened gradually, and then the classic thing happened: she broke her hip. Long story, but when people ask what she died of, I’m tempted to say “life.” I mean, in the end that’s what gets us all.
Thanks, John.
Interesting observations about COVID-19 and the elderly. My mom chugged along for years with several chronic problems that worsened gradually, and then the classic thing happened: she broke her hip. Long story, but when people ask what she died of, I’m tempted to say “life.” I mean, in the end that’s what gets us all.
but instead they express with disorientation and something called ‘blue toes”
there’s at least one commenter at LGM who has reported having this but no other symptoms.
what a crazy disease.
sorry about your uncle, JT,
but instead they express with disorientation and something called ‘blue toes”
there’s at least one commenter at LGM who has reported having this but no other symptoms.
what a crazy disease.
sorry about your uncle, JT,
Why is this virus so darned capricious?
My condolences as well, JT and JamieM.
Why is this virus so darned capricious?
My condolences as well, JT and JamieM.
I missed cleek’s 4:11 — thanks.
As to the disorientation and “blue toes” — I was told by one of the nurses in the family who has worked in a nursing home (long before COVID-19) that a sign that death is approaching is dark/blue patches on the hands and feet, because of dropping oxygen levels. And disorientation isn’t uncommon in the extremely elderly either.
COVID-19 does seem to have an extremely weird range of presentations, but testing would seem imperative to be sure of the connection. And with someone like my mother it would still be a little fuzzy. She had a blood problem for years, with low hemoglobin levels, occasional transfusions, etc.
Anyhow, there was no autopsy and no test for the virus, and it’s too late now.
I missed cleek’s 4:11 — thanks.
As to the disorientation and “blue toes” — I was told by one of the nurses in the family who has worked in a nursing home (long before COVID-19) that a sign that death is approaching is dark/blue patches on the hands and feet, because of dropping oxygen levels. And disorientation isn’t uncommon in the extremely elderly either.
COVID-19 does seem to have an extremely weird range of presentations, but testing would seem imperative to be sure of the connection. And with someone like my mother it would still be a little fuzzy. She had a blood problem for years, with low hemoglobin levels, occasional transfusions, etc.
Anyhow, there was no autopsy and no test for the virus, and it’s too late now.
Thanks bobbyp.
Thanks bobbyp.
Yes, sympathy JDT on the death of your uncle. And let’s all be careful out there. (h/t Hill St Blues)
Yes, sympathy JDT on the death of your uncle. And let’s all be careful out there. (h/t Hill St Blues)
From a German perspective, I’d say we did not take it that seriously at the beginning but the situation in Italy finally rang the alarm bell, in particular because our first known cases came almost exclusively from Italy. It coincided with the holiday season at both schools and universities, so two very large groups of potential vectors did not have a chance to intermingle at the most critical time. And before the end of the holiday season it was decided to close said institutions for the time being.
So, on the one hand people returning from the holidays brought the virus into the country but were also kept from initiating an explosive spread before the wheels of governemnt got up to speed to impose effective countermeasures.
We luckily got a reprieve and were thus able to avoid (at least until now) a situation like in Italy despite being too complacent initially.
From a German perspective, I’d say we did not take it that seriously at the beginning but the situation in Italy finally rang the alarm bell, in particular because our first known cases came almost exclusively from Italy. It coincided with the holiday season at both schools and universities, so two very large groups of potential vectors did not have a chance to intermingle at the most critical time. And before the end of the holiday season it was decided to close said institutions for the time being.
So, on the one hand people returning from the holidays brought the virus into the country but were also kept from initiating an explosive spread before the wheels of governemnt got up to speed to impose effective countermeasures.
We luckily got a reprieve and were thus able to avoid (at least until now) a situation like in Italy despite being too complacent initially.
I should clarify that many of the elderly patients found to have expressed with the foot discolorations tested positive for the Covid-19, or if autopsies were done, they were found to be infected then.
Yes, the disorientation comes with the elderly territory (anyone seen my glasses?), but the article mentioned that these patients went from relative competence and alertness to fairly sudden disorientation and quickly downhill from there as the virus entered our national consciousness, and many tested positive for the virus once their medical staff were on to the pattern, if tests were available.
Mask-less Trump and Pence get tested every week apparently. Possibly because the two of them are utterly disoriented and clueless, but with the nuclear button on call for yucks.
My uncle may or may not have been infected, he was 94 after all, and I’m at the moment reluctant to bring up efforts to find out with my cousin.
She had not been allowed to visit with him in person for nearly two months.
I visited with him summer before last at the VA facility. He and my aunt lived in Brooklyn Heights and I would crash with them often when I was in college and as a younger man, as I love NYC.
Their place is still intact with all of their stuff. When I visited, my cousin and I stopped in. It was odd to sit there among the familiar “stuff” without them.
There will be a funeral service in Middletown, Ohio (he grew up and went thru school in Trenton, near there, with my mother and my aunt, his wife, who passed away in 2004) when this mess settles down to some livable plateau.
I should clarify that many of the elderly patients found to have expressed with the foot discolorations tested positive for the Covid-19, or if autopsies were done, they were found to be infected then.
Yes, the disorientation comes with the elderly territory (anyone seen my glasses?), but the article mentioned that these patients went from relative competence and alertness to fairly sudden disorientation and quickly downhill from there as the virus entered our national consciousness, and many tested positive for the virus once their medical staff were on to the pattern, if tests were available.
Mask-less Trump and Pence get tested every week apparently. Possibly because the two of them are utterly disoriented and clueless, but with the nuclear button on call for yucks.
My uncle may or may not have been infected, he was 94 after all, and I’m at the moment reluctant to bring up efforts to find out with my cousin.
She had not been allowed to visit with him in person for nearly two months.
I visited with him summer before last at the VA facility. He and my aunt lived in Brooklyn Heights and I would crash with them often when I was in college and as a younger man, as I love NYC.
Their place is still intact with all of their stuff. When I visited, my cousin and I stopped in. It was odd to sit there among the familiar “stuff” without them.
There will be a funeral service in Middletown, Ohio (he grew up and went thru school in Trenton, near there, with my mother and my aunt, his wife, who passed away in 2004) when this mess settles down to some livable plateau.
And, thanks.
And, thanks.
I’m so sorry, Janie and John.
I’m so sorry, Janie and John.
Thanks, Marty.
Thanks, Marty.
With my eyes on the graphs, I didn’t even notice this disclaimer at the top of the IHME page:
Social distancing assumed until infections minimized and containment implemented
Per hsh’s question: I think we’re going to hit 74,073 around the middle of the week. WTF? Are they counting on some more narrow basis?
I’d say they’re counting on intervention by oh, I dunno, fairies, or the FSM. “Social distancing assumed until etc.” is obviously not going to happen, even aside from the vagueness of the parameters.
But — the people who produce the graphs can let themselves off the hook, via the disclaimer, for what the administration and the media trumpet the numbers as meaning. They mean what they want them to mean, that’s all.
With my eyes on the graphs, I didn’t even notice this disclaimer at the top of the IHME page:
Social distancing assumed until infections minimized and containment implemented
Per hsh’s question: I think we’re going to hit 74,073 around the middle of the week. WTF? Are they counting on some more narrow basis?
I’d say they’re counting on intervention by oh, I dunno, fairies, or the FSM. “Social distancing assumed until etc.” is obviously not going to happen, even aside from the vagueness of the parameters.
But — the people who produce the graphs can let themselves off the hook, via the disclaimer, for what the administration and the media trumpet the numbers as meaning. They mean what they want them to mean, that’s all.
Let me also offer condolences, JanieM and John Thullen. Very sorry for your loss.
Let me also offer condolences, JanieM and John Thullen. Very sorry for your loss.
Reading my question again, the “counting on” looks funny. Like I meant they were counting on something or other to happen. I meant “counting deaths on some more narrow basis.”. But, still, FSM pretty much sums it up. We’re already past their lower bound by quite a bit. I have to think it’s a garbage-in-garbage-out deal (which, much like a profit deal, takes all the pressure off).
Reading my question again, the “counting on” looks funny. Like I meant they were counting on something or other to happen. I meant “counting deaths on some more narrow basis.”. But, still, FSM pretty much sums it up. We’re already past their lower bound by quite a bit. I have to think it’s a garbage-in-garbage-out deal (which, much like a profit deal, takes all the pressure off).
Five38 has a bunch (technical term) of models, from about 6 universities’ projections, for May 23. They differ quite a bit.
Five38 has a bunch (technical term) of models, from about 6 universities’ projections, for May 23. They differ quite a bit.
sapient — thanks.
hsh — I knew what you meant at the time. My repetition of the phrase was an unconscious play on the original.
sapient — thanks.
hsh — I knew what you meant at the time. My repetition of the phrase was an unconscious play on the original.
Link to 538 article GftNC mentions.
The low-end numbers would require the # of deaths to drop to near zero on or about tomorrow. That would be nice. Opening everything up on the strength of wishful thinking is probably not wise.
The Maine R’s want to convene the legislature to take away the governor’s emergency powers. Luckily, the D’s hold both houses.
Link to 538 article GftNC mentions.
The low-end numbers would require the # of deaths to drop to near zero on or about tomorrow. That would be nice. Opening everything up on the strength of wishful thinking is probably not wise.
The Maine R’s want to convene the legislature to take away the governor’s emergency powers. Luckily, the D’s hold both houses.
The Maine R’s want to convene the legislature to take away the governor’s emergency powers. Luckily, the D’s hold both houses.
Yeah, but if they can reconvene, they still have a shot at getting everybody seriously ill. Which, since the D’s are a majority, would result in more damage to the Democrats. So, still a win.
The Maine R’s want to convene the legislature to take away the governor’s emergency powers. Luckily, the D’s hold both houses.
Yeah, but if they can reconvene, they still have a shot at getting everybody seriously ill. Which, since the D’s are a majority, would result in more damage to the Democrats. So, still a win.
wj — I haven’t read the articles closely, but I don’t think they can reconvene without getting some of the D leadership to agree. So far that doesn’t look likely.
wj — I haven’t read the articles closely, but I don’t think they can reconvene without getting some of the D leadership to agree. So far that doesn’t look likely.
Janie, sounds like a bulet dodged.
Janie, sounds like a bulet dodged.
The Maine R’s want to convene the legislature to take away the governor’s emergency powers. Luckily, the D’s hold both houses.
Colorado’s state legislature is getting short on time to pass the two critical budget bills, w/o which much of state spending stops on June 30. The state supreme court has already ruled that they can go past the usual constitutional limit on the regular session (May 6 this year). It seems at least to me that the court will be unwilling to say the “no moneys spent without appropriation” part of the constitution doesn’t apply. The budget process is likely to be ugly once they start on it. It always is when there is a sudden big hole in state revenues.
The Maine R’s want to convene the legislature to take away the governor’s emergency powers. Luckily, the D’s hold both houses.
Colorado’s state legislature is getting short on time to pass the two critical budget bills, w/o which much of state spending stops on June 30. The state supreme court has already ruled that they can go past the usual constitutional limit on the regular session (May 6 this year). It seems at least to me that the court will be unwilling to say the “no moneys spent without appropriation” part of the constitution doesn’t apply. The budget process is likely to be ugly once they start on it. It always is when there is a sudden big hole in state revenues.
Thank you Marty and sapient.
Thank you Marty and sapient.
All the regulations being bypassed in the current crisis brings into question whether they were even necessary in the first place.
“Millions of Americans own an Apple Watch, which commands roughly a 50 percent share of the smartwatch market. Among its many features, the Apple Watch can take your pulse. It also contains hardware to measure your blood-oxygen levels, and it has been doing so since the watch was released—but the hardware is not operable by the watch’s wearer, who thus cannot obtain the results. Under current FDA regulation, the function is disabled. It’s another example of how federal regulation of the production and distribution of pharmaceuticals and medical devices in the United States is less focused on stopping viruses and other diseases than on blocking private-sector innovators from developing solutions that may not work or might have harmful side effects.”
Suffocating Progress: FDA regulations block usage of a feature in Apple Watches that would help millions of users monitor their blood-oxygen levels. (City Journal Tweet)
All the regulations being bypassed in the current crisis brings into question whether they were even necessary in the first place.
“Millions of Americans own an Apple Watch, which commands roughly a 50 percent share of the smartwatch market. Among its many features, the Apple Watch can take your pulse. It also contains hardware to measure your blood-oxygen levels, and it has been doing so since the watch was released—but the hardware is not operable by the watch’s wearer, who thus cannot obtain the results. Under current FDA regulation, the function is disabled. It’s another example of how federal regulation of the production and distribution of pharmaceuticals and medical devices in the United States is less focused on stopping viruses and other diseases than on blocking private-sector innovators from developing solutions that may not work or might have harmful side effects.”
Suffocating Progress: FDA regulations block usage of a feature in Apple Watches that would help millions of users monitor their blood-oxygen levels. (City Journal Tweet)
All the regulations being bypassed in the current crisis brings into question whether they were even necessary in the first place.
Right. Just like dropping regulations against dumping mercury into the water supply (which the very same people have) “brings into question” whether mercury is even toxic at all. Riiiight.
All the regulations being bypassed in the current crisis brings into question whether they were even necessary in the first place.
Right. Just like dropping regulations against dumping mercury into the water supply (which the very same people have) “brings into question” whether mercury is even toxic at all. Riiiight.