by liberal japonicus
I don’t know if the commentariat here has a lot of military experience, my impression is no. (I don’t, but there is one person here who I think does have some experience/insight, but I leave it to them to speak) And I realize there are a lot of things that, if you are a civilian, are hard to understand. But I find this pretty astonishing.
It’s impossible to keep up with all the opinions here, and there were some excellent twitter threads, one of which suggested that the problem was both sides were right and Crozier did what he did knowing that he was going to be fired. What I cite is going to reflect what I sought out, so there is a bias, but this, via LGM, seems important.
Modly argued that his problem with Crozier’s actions was not the contents of the letter, but rather the way in which Crozier bypassed the chain of command. This argument, too, suffers from a lack of transparency. Modly’s prepared remarks emphasized the importance of the chain of command and included a statement that Crozier’s boss, an admiral embarked aboard the carrier, did not see the letter until it was sent to him by Crozier. In other words, the problem wasn’t that Crozier didn’t inform his boss (he did), but that he didn’t informally tell his boss he was going to do so, in advance of formally telling him.
During questions, a reporter asked if the other people in Crozier’s chain of command were included on the letter, and Modly admitted that they were, but added that many others were included as well, though he declined to say who the objectionable additional recipients were. Incredulous, a reporter asked, “Is he being relieved because he cc’d too many people?” Modly replied that he was being relieved because, “to me, that demonstrated exceptionally poor judgment.” This pattern was frequently repeated in the press conference: Modly would make a strong initial statement that could be misleading. When pressed on the specifics, he would backtrack to a less-categorical position. The overall impression was that the acting secretary of the Navy was attempting to portray Crozier’s actions more negatively than the facts warranted — he was trying to “fog one by” the reporters, the public, and the sailors he leads.
Regarding the competence of the Navy’s response, Modly stated that nearly 3000 appropriate off-ship accommodations had been made available for crewmembers and that sailors were being tested for COVID-19, the ship was being cleaned, and a skeleton crew was remaining aboard to safeguard the ship — essentially the plan recommended by Crozier in his letter. When asked if these actions would have been taken without Crozier’s letter, the acting secretary mentioned that many of the actions required lead-times longer than would have been possible if they had begun only with receipt of the letter.
While plausible, this raises a question: Why would Crozier have sent the letter if he had known that these actions were underway and that he was receiving the support he needed? After all, he had little to gain if he knew the actions were already underway, and much to lose. At best, this suggests that senior Navy leaders hadn’t communicated effectively to Crozier the full scope of response measures underway. But, given the lack of candor and transparency in Modly’s other responses, this also raises questions as to whether the letter may indeed have been the impetus for the Navy’s actions. And the delayed pace of the Navy’s response since Crozier’s relief suggests that Modly may have exaggerated the resources available to care for the crew.
Finally, Modly’s performance did not convey a commitment to some of his most important people: commanding officers confronted with the extraordinary challenge of leading and maintaining readiness during a global pandemic. It is highly unusual for a secretary of the Navy to personally order the commanding officer of a deployed warship fired — normally this action, if required, would be taken by uniformed leaders in the chain of command. It is even more unusual for him to hold a press conference about it. And it is unprecedented for the reasons for a firing to be so thin. The standard of “loss of confidence” in a commanding officer is broad, but it is highly unusual to lose confidence just because an e-mail had many recipients in addition to those required. It seems more likely that Crozier was fired for embarrassing the Navy, because his letter pointing out the ways in which he felt the Navy was not acting sufficiently to care for his crew became a public news story.
This impression is strengthened by reports that Modly pushed for the firing against the advice of senior uniformed leaders, who wanted to conduct an investigation of the leak, and that President Trump was upset with the media coverage surrounding the letter. According to David Ignatius, Modly reportedly told a colleague a day before the firing, “Breaking news: Trump wants him fired.” Yet, when asked at the press conference, Modly stated, “I’ve received absolutely no pressure. I’ve had no communication with the White House about this.”
In reporting published late Sunday April 5, Igantius relayed a conversation in which Modly told him, “I didn’t want to get into a decision where the president would feel that he had to intervene because the Navy couldn’t be decisive.” Adding that his predecessor Richard Spencer had, “lost his job because the Navy Department got crossways with the president,” Modly also reiterated that he had not communicated with Trump on the decision prior to firing Crozier.
Ironically, two days before Crozier was relieved, Vice Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Robert P. Burke sent a message to the fleet regarding COVID-19 response, which stated:
There are times that you will need to push back on operational requirements. There are times that you may need to go to an installation commander for places to house your Sailors because you cannot effectively isolate your personnel. There are times when they may not be able to help. We want these decisions to be fact-based, and not emotionally-driven. If you’re not getting what you need, don’t suffer in silence, get the word up the chain. Above all, and I want you to hear this from me and the CNO, WE HAVE YOUR BACK. When in doubt, lean forward and lead.
This is a far cry from Modly’s statement at the press conference: “[Crozier] created the impression that the Navy was not reacting … that displayed poor judgment … [and] created a firestorm.”
Thoughts?
Two quick reads from the Navy Times opinions pages:
https://www.navytimes.com/opinion/2020/04/06/in-speaking-truth-to-power-captain-crozier-made-us-proud/
…and an especially interesting bit of historicizing:
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/04/04/theodore-roosevelt-captain-followed-in-footsteps-of-ships-namesake-by-writing-bombshell-letter/
My thought is that the Navy has been suffering a bit of a crisis for a while, at least from what I have seen back channel from vets. No one is happy with the way that the SEALs have gone Hollywood to the detriment of discipline or with the careerism at the top.
Granted, I am not a vet, so I’m just getting what filters through my particular set of acquaintances, and they lean towards the iconoclastic and critical. Make of that what you will.
Two quick reads from the Navy Times opinions pages:
https://www.navytimes.com/opinion/2020/04/06/in-speaking-truth-to-power-captain-crozier-made-us-proud/
…and an especially interesting bit of historicizing:
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/04/04/theodore-roosevelt-captain-followed-in-footsteps-of-ships-namesake-by-writing-bombshell-letter/
My thought is that the Navy has been suffering a bit of a crisis for a while, at least from what I have seen back channel from vets. No one is happy with the way that the SEALs have gone Hollywood to the detriment of discipline or with the careerism at the top.
Granted, I am not a vet, so I’m just getting what filters through my particular set of acquaintances, and they lean towards the iconoclastic and critical. Make of that what you will.
There’s an old argument about torture, that it should remain illegal even if there are a few cases where it’s justified. Only those willing to risk imprisonment will do it, throwing themselves on the mercy of prosecutors and judges and juries.
I see this a bit the same way. Crozier *did* violate rules about chain of command and (more important IMO) operational security. Those rules *are* important. What he did was also laudable, perhaps even heroic. He knew he would have to face the music, and he did what he thought was right anyway. AFAICT the uniformed officers in his chain of command appreciated this, and were willing to make an allowance for it. He might not have gotten promoted for a while, but he wouldn’t have been relieved of command either.
Unfortunately, apparatchik Modly overruled the people who actually understand military leadership and discipline. On top of that decided to emulate his boss and be a total *dick* about it in his speech on board the ship. He’s the one who should be cashiered, because what he did will have a far worse effect on morale and discipline and general combat readiness than anything Crozier did.
There’s an old argument about torture, that it should remain illegal even if there are a few cases where it’s justified. Only those willing to risk imprisonment will do it, throwing themselves on the mercy of prosecutors and judges and juries.
I see this a bit the same way. Crozier *did* violate rules about chain of command and (more important IMO) operational security. Those rules *are* important. What he did was also laudable, perhaps even heroic. He knew he would have to face the music, and he did what he thought was right anyway. AFAICT the uniformed officers in his chain of command appreciated this, and were willing to make an allowance for it. He might not have gotten promoted for a while, but he wouldn’t have been relieved of command either.
Unfortunately, apparatchik Modly overruled the people who actually understand military leadership and discipline. On top of that decided to emulate his boss and be a total *dick* about it in his speech on board the ship. He’s the one who should be cashiered, because what he did will have a far worse effect on morale and discipline and general combat readiness than anything Crozier did.
It is highly unusual for a secretary of the Navy to personally order the commanding officer of a deployed warship fired — normally this action, if required, would be taken by uniformed leaders in the chain of command. It is even more unusual for him to hold a press conference about it. And it is unprecedented for the reasons for a firing to be so thin.
Even more unusual than a press conference is for the Secretary of the Navy (actually, anybody on the chain of command, but especially SecNav) to give a speech (over the shipwide PA system) in which the outgoing CO is slandered to the troops. If anything, the military goes out of its way to avoid negative comments about a CO who has been relieved of command. (The obvious exception being one who got Court Marshalled, or resigned from the service to avoid that.)
I could maybe see it, if the goal was to convince the troops that their problems had been recognized and their terrible commander was being replaced by someone who they could respect. But from the sendoff that Captain Corzier got when he left, this was quite the opposite of that situation. Indeed, the Secretary of the Navy seemed particularly upset that the troops had made it so obvious that they thougjt he had been a good commander.
Trump’s pardoning and praising individuals guilty of war crimes had already done damage to the military. This has made it worse. Soldiers and sailors routinely gripe about their civilian superiors being unclear (at best) about the military and how it functions. Not that they object to the principle of civilian control of the military. Just wish it was more intelligently exercised sometimes.
But this has gotten to a whole new level of ignorance and misuse. Perhaps not surprising, considering Trump and his boys’ track record across the government. But terrible nonetheless.
It is highly unusual for a secretary of the Navy to personally order the commanding officer of a deployed warship fired — normally this action, if required, would be taken by uniformed leaders in the chain of command. It is even more unusual for him to hold a press conference about it. And it is unprecedented for the reasons for a firing to be so thin.
Even more unusual than a press conference is for the Secretary of the Navy (actually, anybody on the chain of command, but especially SecNav) to give a speech (over the shipwide PA system) in which the outgoing CO is slandered to the troops. If anything, the military goes out of its way to avoid negative comments about a CO who has been relieved of command. (The obvious exception being one who got Court Marshalled, or resigned from the service to avoid that.)
I could maybe see it, if the goal was to convince the troops that their problems had been recognized and their terrible commander was being replaced by someone who they could respect. But from the sendoff that Captain Corzier got when he left, this was quite the opposite of that situation. Indeed, the Secretary of the Navy seemed particularly upset that the troops had made it so obvious that they thougjt he had been a good commander.
Trump’s pardoning and praising individuals guilty of war crimes had already done damage to the military. This has made it worse. Soldiers and sailors routinely gripe about their civilian superiors being unclear (at best) about the military and how it functions. Not that they object to the principle of civilian control of the military. Just wish it was more intelligently exercised sometimes.
But this has gotten to a whole new level of ignorance and misuse. Perhaps not surprising, considering Trump and his boys’ track record across the government. But terrible nonetheless.
I have never served in the military, and have at best tangential exposure to military ethics and values via professional assignments I’ve had over the years.
So, I speak as a civilian. Apply grains of salt as required.
What I think is that a fish rots from the head down.
I have never served in the military, and have at best tangential exposure to military ethics and values via professional assignments I’ve had over the years.
So, I speak as a civilian. Apply grains of salt as required.
What I think is that a fish rots from the head down.
What I think is that a fish rots from the head down.
And the cogent question (for the military, but not just for the military) is: How far will the rot get before we can lop the head off? In other words, just how big a clean-up are we facing? Other than “Huge!”, which we know without digging.
What I think is that a fish rots from the head down.
And the cogent question (for the military, but not just for the military) is: How far will the rot get before we can lop the head off? In other words, just how big a clean-up are we facing? Other than “Huge!”, which we know without digging.
Also hiding in the covid-19 noise: Trump has fired the intelligence IG. For having the bad judgement to do his job precisely as required by law. He wasn’t trying to serve two masters, but the one he chose didn’t happen to be Trump.
Also hiding in the covid-19 noise: Trump has fired the intelligence IG. For having the bad judgement to do his job precisely as required by law. He wasn’t trying to serve two masters, but the one he chose didn’t happen to be Trump.
The ultimate master politicians and bureaucrats try to ignore is the Constitution.
The ultimate master politicians and bureaucrats try to ignore is the Constitution.
One thing I think we all lack here is the relevant level of command experience. A naval captain is an immensely high military position: as a commanding officer of a carrier, he has some 5,000 subordinates. I have some military experience as an officer, but I, honestly, don’t really have any insight in how a carrier captain should work informally with his commanding officers. That kind of thing is cultural: you learn those things by attending the necessary schools, and serving on staffs. I would say that to understand how things work on captain level, you need to be at least a lieutenant commander with relevant experience. Even then, you have not really seen the most intimate parts of the interaction.
So, we cannot really judge Crozier or his actions because we don’t know the relevant cultural norms. How many of us know even the names and official and inofficial uses of different message systems that are available for a commanding officer of a carrier?
One thing I think we all lack here is the relevant level of command experience. A naval captain is an immensely high military position: as a commanding officer of a carrier, he has some 5,000 subordinates. I have some military experience as an officer, but I, honestly, don’t really have any insight in how a carrier captain should work informally with his commanding officers. That kind of thing is cultural: you learn those things by attending the necessary schools, and serving on staffs. I would say that to understand how things work on captain level, you need to be at least a lieutenant commander with relevant experience. Even then, you have not really seen the most intimate parts of the interaction.
So, we cannot really judge Crozier or his actions because we don’t know the relevant cultural norms. How many of us know even the names and official and inofficial uses of different message systems that are available for a commanding officer of a carrier?
That’s a good point, but it sounds like you want to throw up your hands, whereas I think it is important to learn about it, but if I’m misreading you, my apologies.
Here is his bio
https://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/lcc19/Pages/Bio1-9June2017-16June2018.aspx
It doesn’t say when he started as captain, though this article
https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-nyt-captain-crozier-coronavirus-20200405-6txtfzpcarcsnfk575ye7xu4wi-story.html
says it was in November.
As I said, I’m getting my information and I’m sure there is a skew to it. But I would like to see why there was no investigation, a timeline and some transparency. But in these times, transparency is like PPE, something that is in short supply.
I was a bit surprised that Modly was also an Annapolis graduate. But Pompeo was a West Point grad, (though one thing I saw that I cannot locate is that he fits a profile of people who go to a military academy, do the minimum required service and then tout their military experience in the corporate world, a type that had a name, but I can’t remember it) Anyway, what this suggests, if this was simply revenge for relating bad news, is that we need to stop thinking that the military man is not going to save the day.
That’s a good point, but it sounds like you want to throw up your hands, whereas I think it is important to learn about it, but if I’m misreading you, my apologies.
Here is his bio
https://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/lcc19/Pages/Bio1-9June2017-16June2018.aspx
It doesn’t say when he started as captain, though this article
https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-nyt-captain-crozier-coronavirus-20200405-6txtfzpcarcsnfk575ye7xu4wi-story.html
says it was in November.
As I said, I’m getting my information and I’m sure there is a skew to it. But I would like to see why there was no investigation, a timeline and some transparency. But in these times, transparency is like PPE, something that is in short supply.
I was a bit surprised that Modly was also an Annapolis graduate. But Pompeo was a West Point grad, (though one thing I saw that I cannot locate is that he fits a profile of people who go to a military academy, do the minimum required service and then tout their military experience in the corporate world, a type that had a name, but I can’t remember it) Anyway, what this suggests, if this was simply revenge for relating bad news, is that we need to stop thinking that the military man is not going to save the day.
Independent of the merits of the case, Modly seems to be working on the principle of ‘dem Führer entgegenarbeiten’*, i.e. not to wait for orders from the boss but to anticipate him and to do what you expect him to expect from you because the boss is reluctant to give direct orders (and maybe even leave a paper trail).
The hearsay evidence seems to imply exactly that.
*the main reason given by reputable historians for why there were so few explicit orders for atrocities from the Nazi leadership (but enough at the lower levels). Disreputable historians like David Irving used it as ‘proof’ that e.g. Hitler was completely out of the loop concerning the holocaust (before he began to deny that there was a holocaust to start with).
Independent of the merits of the case, Modly seems to be working on the principle of ‘dem Führer entgegenarbeiten’*, i.e. not to wait for orders from the boss but to anticipate him and to do what you expect him to expect from you because the boss is reluctant to give direct orders (and maybe even leave a paper trail).
The hearsay evidence seems to imply exactly that.
*the main reason given by reputable historians for why there were so few explicit orders for atrocities from the Nazi leadership (but enough at the lower levels). Disreputable historians like David Irving used it as ‘proof’ that e.g. Hitler was completely out of the loop concerning the holocaust (before he began to deny that there was a holocaust to start with).
Lurker:
If we can’t judge because we don’t know the context ourselves, we should look to those who do. AFAICT Crozier’s uniformed superiors, all the way up to the chief of naval operations, have expressed dismay at Modly’s intrusion on what has traditionally been an internal matter. The speech in particular has drawn the ire of several veterans, admirals and such who surely know what the norms are. Literally all of the people who would know what you want them to know seem to be defending Crozier and condemning Modly. What does that tell you?
Lurker:
If we can’t judge because we don’t know the context ourselves, we should look to those who do. AFAICT Crozier’s uniformed superiors, all the way up to the chief of naval operations, have expressed dismay at Modly’s intrusion on what has traditionally been an internal matter. The speech in particular has drawn the ire of several veterans, admirals and such who surely know what the norms are. Literally all of the people who would know what you want them to know seem to be defending Crozier and condemning Modly. What does that tell you?
It is not at all surprising that he was replaced. It was what he knew would happen. That’s what makes it a selfless act.
The idea that there is a lack of transparency anywhere in the administration, or government in general at this point is ludicrous.
I cant imagine any President surviving the publishing of every conversation he has, including those in the Situation Room. Presidents have to be able to have frank discussions with advisors in confidence, just like every other leader in the world. Government, business whatever.
Trump is by himself his worst enemy in that regard, his administration doesnt even u understand confidentiality and anytime they do try to keep something confidential its immediately leaked.
Aside from his shortcomings, this is what a transparent Presidency looks like, a shitshow.
It is not at all surprising that he was replaced. It was what he knew would happen. That’s what makes it a selfless act.
The idea that there is a lack of transparency anywhere in the administration, or government in general at this point is ludicrous.
I cant imagine any President surviving the publishing of every conversation he has, including those in the Situation Room. Presidents have to be able to have frank discussions with advisors in confidence, just like every other leader in the world. Government, business whatever.
Trump is by himself his worst enemy in that regard, his administration doesnt even u understand confidentiality and anytime they do try to keep something confidential its immediately leaked.
Aside from his shortcomings, this is what a transparent Presidency looks like, a shitshow.
Aside from his shortcomings, this is what a transparent Presidency looks like, a shitshow.
Aside from his shortcomings? I get that there’s going to be controversy or infighting no matter who’s president, but “aside from his shortcomings” is like describing a snowstorm while putting aside the snow.
Aside from his shortcomings, this is what a transparent Presidency looks like, a shitshow.
Aside from his shortcomings? I get that there’s going to be controversy or infighting no matter who’s president, but “aside from his shortcomings” is like describing a snowstorm while putting aside the snow.
Well hsh, I disagree. There are tons of things he has done that we spend hours discussing what he wanted to do, but didnt.if those conversations were treated like prior Presidencies it wouldnt look like nearly as bad as it does. People sometimes talk like, as you’ve noted, no one ever aggressively disagreed in the privacy of the Oval or the Situation Room before.
So it makes him look worse, him being bad enough in the first place. At some level it also negatively impacts the quality of advice he gets.
Well hsh, I disagree. There are tons of things he has done that we spend hours discussing what he wanted to do, but didnt.if those conversations were treated like prior Presidencies it wouldnt look like nearly as bad as it does. People sometimes talk like, as you’ve noted, no one ever aggressively disagreed in the privacy of the Oval or the Situation Room before.
So it makes him look worse, him being bad enough in the first place. At some level it also negatively impacts the quality of advice he gets.
“So it makes him look worse, him being bad enough in the first place. At some level it also negatively impacts the quality of advice he gets.”
Somehow I doubt that WH “transparency” is the main negative impact on “the quality of advice [Trump] gets.”
“So it makes him look worse, him being bad enough in the first place. At some level it also negatively impacts the quality of advice he gets.”
Somehow I doubt that WH “transparency” is the main negative impact on “the quality of advice [Trump] gets.”
Most transparent administration, huh?
How come it’s only coming out now that Peter Navarro’s memo warning that the US’s unpreparedness for the likely pandemic could imperil millions of American lives was circulating in the West Wing in late January, at the same time Trump was downplaying the virus?
It does rather remind me of Condoleeza Rice’s testimony when she had to admit that in the first few days of the Dubya presidency a memo was circulated headlined something like Bin Laden’s Plan to Mount a Major Terrorist Attack in the US. So yes, not unprecedented levels of concealment.
In the meantime, I am trying to track down the article I read this morning about Trump’s financial interest in the company that makes Hydroxychloroqine….
Most transparent administration, huh?
How come it’s only coming out now that Peter Navarro’s memo warning that the US’s unpreparedness for the likely pandemic could imperil millions of American lives was circulating in the West Wing in late January, at the same time Trump was downplaying the virus?
It does rather remind me of Condoleeza Rice’s testimony when she had to admit that in the first few days of the Dubya presidency a memo was circulated headlined something like Bin Laden’s Plan to Mount a Major Terrorist Attack in the US. So yes, not unprecedented levels of concealment.
In the meantime, I am trying to track down the article I read this morning about Trump’s financial interest in the company that makes Hydroxychloroqine….
I didn’t say anything about Orange boy and while I think this flows from the kind of environment he has created, I’m more interested in knowing what happened in regard to Captain Crozier. As the article points out
“Regarding the competence of the Navy’s response, Modly stated that nearly 3000 appropriate off-ship accommodations had been made available for crewmembers and that sailors were being tested for COVID-19, the ship was being cleaned, and a skeleton crew was remaining aboard to safeguard the ship — essentially the plan recommended by Crozier in his letter. When asked if these actions would have been taken without Crozier’s letter, the acting secretary mentioned that many of the actions required lead-times longer than would have been possible if they had begun only with receipt of the letter.
While plausible, this raises a question: Why would Crozier have sent the letter if he had known that these actions were underway and that he was receiving the support he needed? After all, he had little to gain if he knew the actions were already underway, and much to lose. At best, this suggests that senior Navy leaders hadn’t communicated effectively to Crozier the full scope of response measures underway. But, given the lack of candor and transparency in Modly’s other responses, this also raises questions as to whether the letter may indeed have been the impetus for the Navy’s actions. And the delayed pace of the Navy’s response since Crozier’s relief suggests that Modly may have exaggerated the resources available to care for the crew.”
Just to say this directly, I’m not making this about he who I won’t name, you are. So if you want to argue that he’s being held to a standard that no other president has been, that’s your privilege, but realize that when I read this statement
“There are tons of things he has done that we spend hours discussing what he wanted to do, but didnt.” I have to ask ‘who’s this we, kemosabe?’
I didn’t say anything about Orange boy and while I think this flows from the kind of environment he has created, I’m more interested in knowing what happened in regard to Captain Crozier. As the article points out
“Regarding the competence of the Navy’s response, Modly stated that nearly 3000 appropriate off-ship accommodations had been made available for crewmembers and that sailors were being tested for COVID-19, the ship was being cleaned, and a skeleton crew was remaining aboard to safeguard the ship — essentially the plan recommended by Crozier in his letter. When asked if these actions would have been taken without Crozier’s letter, the acting secretary mentioned that many of the actions required lead-times longer than would have been possible if they had begun only with receipt of the letter.
While plausible, this raises a question: Why would Crozier have sent the letter if he had known that these actions were underway and that he was receiving the support he needed? After all, he had little to gain if he knew the actions were already underway, and much to lose. At best, this suggests that senior Navy leaders hadn’t communicated effectively to Crozier the full scope of response measures underway. But, given the lack of candor and transparency in Modly’s other responses, this also raises questions as to whether the letter may indeed have been the impetus for the Navy’s actions. And the delayed pace of the Navy’s response since Crozier’s relief suggests that Modly may have exaggerated the resources available to care for the crew.”
Just to say this directly, I’m not making this about he who I won’t name, you are. So if you want to argue that he’s being held to a standard that no other president has been, that’s your privilege, but realize that when I read this statement
“There are tons of things he has done that we spend hours discussing what he wanted to do, but didnt.” I have to ask ‘who’s this we, kemosabe?’
See lj, it’s an irrelevant question He publicly went around the chain of command. As aofficer there is no room for that in the military.
We, is everyone on this blog and every commenter and every news person in the country. It’s a pretty broad we.
See lj, it’s an irrelevant question He publicly went around the chain of command. As aofficer there is no room for that in the military.
We, is everyone on this blog and every commenter and every news person in the country. It’s a pretty broad we.
Well hsh, I disagree.
I think it’s pretty much impossible to separate the incompetence of the Trump administration from the general incompetence of Trump himself.
It’s a much leakier organization then, for example, Obama’s was. That’s mostly because Obama was a very effective executive and had good organizational discipline. I’m leaving aside the issue of whether the relative transparency of Obama’s administration was a good or bad thing.
Trump’s a bad president because Trump doesn’t have the chops – the temperament, skill set, or even the inclination – to be a good president. Further explanation isn’t really required.
this flows from the kind of environment he has created
My understanding, based on not very much information, is that Modly took the actions he did to more or less pre-empt what he assumed Trump’s actions would be.
Well hsh, I disagree.
I think it’s pretty much impossible to separate the incompetence of the Trump administration from the general incompetence of Trump himself.
It’s a much leakier organization then, for example, Obama’s was. That’s mostly because Obama was a very effective executive and had good organizational discipline. I’m leaving aside the issue of whether the relative transparency of Obama’s administration was a good or bad thing.
Trump’s a bad president because Trump doesn’t have the chops – the temperament, skill set, or even the inclination – to be a good president. Further explanation isn’t really required.
this flows from the kind of environment he has created
My understanding, based on not very much information, is that Modly took the actions he did to more or less pre-empt what he assumed Trump’s actions would be.
“relative lack of transparency of Obama’s administration”
“relative lack of transparency of Obama’s administration”
My Dad was career Navy, Annapolis Class of ’44, who entered the fleet in ’43, for obvious reasons. He retired in 1970. The chain of command IS a big deal in the military but it is a big deal in pretty much any hierarchical organization. You don’t go around your boss, you go through your boss.
Based on the limited information we have, my money is on Capt. Crozier doing what he did because he’d exhausted his other, traditional and legal, lines of relief to no good end and like a good officer, when it comes down to it, does what’s best for his subordinates regardless of the personal price the officer pays.
As Lurker correctly states, you don’t get to be captain of an aircraft carrier without being a capital “O” Outstanding Officer. To get to that level, you’ve shown not only tremendous military savvy but also the ability to navigate (intentional pun) the vagaries of military and civilian politics.
IOW, someone who meets these criteria to qualify as an aircraft carrier captain is the polar opposite of someone who pops off in public without running all the traps and thoroughly exploring all other options first.
And, it’s not clear to me that Capt. Crozier actually went outside the chain of command. Does anyone have evidence that he put his letter in the public domain?
To think that the on-board admiral didn’t know that CV was on the ship is just stupid. The captain and the admiral talk every day, many times a day. The admiral had the opportunity to do the right thing. Indulging in the presumption of innocence, let’s assume that the admiral was also outspoken up the chain about the threat his ship’s crew was facing. Evidence that he did so will come when, after exhausting his internal lines of communication, he resigns in protest due to the treatment accorded Capt. Crozier.
The admiral or someone above the admiral, chickened out for fear of taking a career hit. Capt. Crozier stepped up to the plate.
This is the direct and proximate result of having a full blown, clinical narcissist in office who confuses the military with his own Praetorian Guard. You don’t make the man look bad without paying a price. The alumni of former Trump administration personnel fired for not kissing the ring is a large and growing group.
However, despising Trump, his cult and the corruption and sycophancy that now defines our executive branch does not make socialism or progressivism the obvious default position. We do not live in a binary world.
My Dad was career Navy, Annapolis Class of ’44, who entered the fleet in ’43, for obvious reasons. He retired in 1970. The chain of command IS a big deal in the military but it is a big deal in pretty much any hierarchical organization. You don’t go around your boss, you go through your boss.
Based on the limited information we have, my money is on Capt. Crozier doing what he did because he’d exhausted his other, traditional and legal, lines of relief to no good end and like a good officer, when it comes down to it, does what’s best for his subordinates regardless of the personal price the officer pays.
As Lurker correctly states, you don’t get to be captain of an aircraft carrier without being a capital “O” Outstanding Officer. To get to that level, you’ve shown not only tremendous military savvy but also the ability to navigate (intentional pun) the vagaries of military and civilian politics.
IOW, someone who meets these criteria to qualify as an aircraft carrier captain is the polar opposite of someone who pops off in public without running all the traps and thoroughly exploring all other options first.
And, it’s not clear to me that Capt. Crozier actually went outside the chain of command. Does anyone have evidence that he put his letter in the public domain?
To think that the on-board admiral didn’t know that CV was on the ship is just stupid. The captain and the admiral talk every day, many times a day. The admiral had the opportunity to do the right thing. Indulging in the presumption of innocence, let’s assume that the admiral was also outspoken up the chain about the threat his ship’s crew was facing. Evidence that he did so will come when, after exhausting his internal lines of communication, he resigns in protest due to the treatment accorded Capt. Crozier.
The admiral or someone above the admiral, chickened out for fear of taking a career hit. Capt. Crozier stepped up to the plate.
This is the direct and proximate result of having a full blown, clinical narcissist in office who confuses the military with his own Praetorian Guard. You don’t make the man look bad without paying a price. The alumni of former Trump administration personnel fired for not kissing the ring is a large and growing group.
However, despising Trump, his cult and the corruption and sycophancy that now defines our executive branch does not make socialism or progressivism the obvious default position. We do not live in a binary world.
Excellent comment, McKinney, despite that bit of straw at the end. ;^)
Excellent comment, McKinney, despite that bit of straw at the end. ;^)
See lj, it’s an irrelevant question He publicly went around the chain of command. As aofficer there is no room for that in the military.
Feel free to set out your qualifications as an observer of the military.
We, is everyone on this blog and every commenter and every news person in the country. It’s a pretty broad we.
You are the one who brought it up. I believe that the elementary school couplet was he who smelt it, dealt it.
See lj, it’s an irrelevant question He publicly went around the chain of command. As aofficer there is no room for that in the military.
Feel free to set out your qualifications as an observer of the military.
We, is everyone on this blog and every commenter and every news person in the country. It’s a pretty broad we.
You are the one who brought it up. I believe that the elementary school couplet was he who smelt it, dealt it.
What McKinney said.
What McKinney said.
despite that bit of straw at the end. ;^)
Yeah, I debated including that point, but it seems like when I slam DT, unless I pre-empt, I get a bit of the “then why aren’t you a Democrat?”.
despite that bit of straw at the end. ;^)
Yeah, I debated including that point, but it seems like when I slam DT, unless I pre-empt, I get a bit of the “then why aren’t you a Democrat?”.
You are the one who brought it up.
To be fair to Marty, I may have kicked it off with “fish rots from the head down”.
Also, thanks McK. Can’t even argue with the last bit, whether straw man or no.
I like ‘competence’ as the obvious default position. Issues and policies can be discussed and debated. Other stuff, less so.
You are the one who brought it up.
To be fair to Marty, I may have kicked it off with “fish rots from the head down”.
Also, thanks McK. Can’t even argue with the last bit, whether straw man or no.
I like ‘competence’ as the obvious default position. Issues and policies can be discussed and debated. Other stuff, less so.
“Both the New York Times and Ian Sams use vague language and omit specifics, making the matter sound potentially nefarious. It turns out that one of the many mutual funds that the president’s family trusts invest in holds significant stock from Sanofi.
…
Mutual funds consist of diverse securities packaged together and managed by a fund adviser; it’s not as if Trump owns stock in Sanofi directly. What’s more, Sanofi makes a lot of different drugs, and its patent on Plaquenil has run out. That means hydroxychloroquine is hardly a big money-maker for the company, and there are abundant other sources where one can get versions of the same drug.”
Trump Was Warned in January and February That COVID-19 Could Kill Millions, Cost Trillions: Plus: Trump’s rumored stake in hydroxychloroquine, Supreme Court “destroys Fourth Amendment jurisprudence,” the 21st century crisis case for libertarianism, and more…
“Both the New York Times and Ian Sams use vague language and omit specifics, making the matter sound potentially nefarious. It turns out that one of the many mutual funds that the president’s family trusts invest in holds significant stock from Sanofi.
…
Mutual funds consist of diverse securities packaged together and managed by a fund adviser; it’s not as if Trump owns stock in Sanofi directly. What’s more, Sanofi makes a lot of different drugs, and its patent on Plaquenil has run out. That means hydroxychloroquine is hardly a big money-maker for the company, and there are abundant other sources where one can get versions of the same drug.”
Trump Was Warned in January and February That COVID-19 Could Kill Millions, Cost Trillions: Plus: Trump’s rumored stake in hydroxychloroquine, Supreme Court “destroys Fourth Amendment jurisprudence,” the 21st century crisis case for libertarianism, and more…
Raising the conversation above 5th grade, good summary mckT.
He did send the letter to a variety of people that were not in his direct chain of command, it did get to the media.
In a couple of years working at headquarters at the company and battalion level as an aide to Master Sergeants, it was always clear what the cost of going outside the chain of command was from a career standpoint. Just one of the practically immutable ways the military maintains discipline. So I have an opinion based on that experience that the Captain would have expected the result because, as you pointed out, he didnt get where he was without understanding those expectations.
It is clear he did not believe that preparations were underway to deal with the issue, or he felt that the solution would not be adequate, or he would not have felt compelled to step outside protocol.
If he did not understand the consequences he should not have been where he was. If he did it was a selfless act of conscience that deserves our highest respect. I tend to lean toward the latter.
Raising the conversation above 5th grade, good summary mckT.
He did send the letter to a variety of people that were not in his direct chain of command, it did get to the media.
In a couple of years working at headquarters at the company and battalion level as an aide to Master Sergeants, it was always clear what the cost of going outside the chain of command was from a career standpoint. Just one of the practically immutable ways the military maintains discipline. So I have an opinion based on that experience that the Captain would have expected the result because, as you pointed out, he didnt get where he was without understanding those expectations.
It is clear he did not believe that preparations were underway to deal with the issue, or he felt that the solution would not be adequate, or he would not have felt compelled to step outside protocol.
If he did not understand the consequences he should not have been where he was. If he did it was a selfless act of conscience that deserves our highest respect. I tend to lean toward the latter.
“To be fair to Marty, I may have kicked it off with “fish rots from the head down”.”
But you weren’t complaining about what ‘we’ were writing. If he doesn’t like what ‘we’ are writing, he can stop tricking out his opinion as some reaction to the oh so terrible state of discouse and take responsiblity for what he writes. ‘I disagree and I think X’ It isn’t really so hard…
“To be fair to Marty, I may have kicked it off with “fish rots from the head down”.”
But you weren’t complaining about what ‘we’ were writing. If he doesn’t like what ‘we’ are writing, he can stop tricking out his opinion as some reaction to the oh so terrible state of discouse and take responsiblity for what he writes. ‘I disagree and I think X’ It isn’t really so hard…
Sorry, one more thing. Mostly should have announced he was leaving, thanked him for his service and left it at that.
In the military, of all places, trying to justify the outcome weakens discipline and demeaned the captains choice.
Sorry, one more thing. Mostly should have announced he was leaving, thanked him for his service and left it at that.
In the military, of all places, trying to justify the outcome weakens discipline and demeaned the captains choice.
I disagree with the state of discourse is an equally valid opinion.
I disagree with the state of discourse is an equally valid opinion.
Obdurodon,
I am not making a point about Crozier’s removal. It is quite clear it was a political act by Trump or by his henchman. (I think the “best case” scenario would be SECNAV removing Crozier from command to pre-empt Trump from dismissing the man, which would probably lead to a very public court martial that Trump would lose. That would demonstrate he is half-competent, if amoral.)
I tried to make a point that probably none of us actually knows the culture in which high naval officers work well enough to actually make guesses at what would be organisationally the most respectable way to navigate a situation like this. As McKinney said, Crozier probably did not have any other avenue than this.
However, I really wonder at a culture which makes things like this public. There is something rotten in the US Navy. This debacle is only one in a long series of mistakes that reek of deep organizational problems. If you read the reports on the case of the riverine boat ending on Iranese waters and on well-published collisions, you see that the US Navy is pretty clearly suffers of deep-seated problems.
Obdurodon,
I am not making a point about Crozier’s removal. It is quite clear it was a political act by Trump or by his henchman. (I think the “best case” scenario would be SECNAV removing Crozier from command to pre-empt Trump from dismissing the man, which would probably lead to a very public court martial that Trump would lose. That would demonstrate he is half-competent, if amoral.)
I tried to make a point that probably none of us actually knows the culture in which high naval officers work well enough to actually make guesses at what would be organisationally the most respectable way to navigate a situation like this. As McKinney said, Crozier probably did not have any other avenue than this.
However, I really wonder at a culture which makes things like this public. There is something rotten in the US Navy. This debacle is only one in a long series of mistakes that reek of deep organizational problems. If you read the reports on the case of the riverine boat ending on Iranese waters and on well-published collisions, you see that the US Navy is pretty clearly suffers of deep-seated problems.
To say
I disagree with the state of the discourse
when you are trying to make things run off the rails suggests a lack of self-awareness.
I generally let people comment about whatever they want, and I also try to leave posts that are more open to let people put whatever they want to. But I would really appreciate it if you stopped shitting in my posts.
To say
I disagree with the state of the discourse
when you are trying to make things run off the rails suggests a lack of self-awareness.
I generally let people comment about whatever they want, and I also try to leave posts that are more open to let people put whatever they want to. But I would really appreciate it if you stopped shitting in my posts.
lj, I have no idea why you consider it shitting in your posts. You said:
“As I said, I’m getting my information and I’m sure there is a skew to it. But I would like to see why there was no investigation, a timeline and some transparency. But in these times, transparency is like PPE, something that is in short supply.”
I responded that there is no lack of transparency.
lj, I have no idea why you consider it shitting in your posts. You said:
“As I said, I’m getting my information and I’m sure there is a skew to it. But I would like to see why there was no investigation, a timeline and some transparency. But in these times, transparency is like PPE, something that is in short supply.”
I responded that there is no lack of transparency.
Raising the conversation above 5th grade, good summary mckT.
I have no idea why you consider it shitting in your posts.
The lack of self-awareness is stunning.
Raising the conversation above 5th grade, good summary mckT.
I have no idea why you consider it shitting in your posts.
The lack of self-awareness is stunning.
The Navy has had severe institutional problems at the top for a while now, and the most public face of that has been the SEALs.
Just a sampling, chosen for representative breadth:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/problem-navy-seal-commander-calls-return-order-discipline/story?id=64731772
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/selling-the-trident-navy-seals-describe-a-culture-in-crisis-in-their-own-words/
https://taskandpurpose.com/analysis/navy-seals-discipline-problem
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/the-drift/2019/07/28/big-navy-must-fix-the-seals-the-drift-vol-xlii/
And I’ll add this piece from The Intercept in as well, but I wanted to separate it out because while it doesn’t differ much in content from the rest above, its tone and slant are most likely to attract fire for bias:
https://theintercept.com/2019/12/05/donald-trump-eddie-gallagher-navy-seals/
If you want an unfiltered opinion of the SEAL problem, ask a marine scout. I’ve been hearing shit about this discipline problem since the Obama tenure, shortly after the Bin Laden raid.
The Navy has had severe institutional problems at the top for a while now, and the most public face of that has been the SEALs.
Just a sampling, chosen for representative breadth:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/problem-navy-seal-commander-calls-return-order-discipline/story?id=64731772
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/selling-the-trident-navy-seals-describe-a-culture-in-crisis-in-their-own-words/
https://taskandpurpose.com/analysis/navy-seals-discipline-problem
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/the-drift/2019/07/28/big-navy-must-fix-the-seals-the-drift-vol-xlii/
And I’ll add this piece from The Intercept in as well, but I wanted to separate it out because while it doesn’t differ much in content from the rest above, its tone and slant are most likely to attract fire for bias:
https://theintercept.com/2019/12/05/donald-trump-eddie-gallagher-navy-seals/
If you want an unfiltered opinion of the SEAL problem, ask a marine scout. I’ve been hearing shit about this discipline problem since the Obama tenure, shortly after the Bin Laden raid.
Gosh JanieM, did you miss the line I was responding to from lj:
“You are the one who brought it up. I believe that the elementary school couplet was he who smelt it, dealt it.”
Look,I apologize for using the term ludicrous, which seems to be the crux of the reaction. I strongly disagree there is a lack of reasonable transparency, even in this case.
Gosh JanieM, did you miss the line I was responding to from lj:
“You are the one who brought it up. I believe that the elementary school couplet was he who smelt it, dealt it.”
Look,I apologize for using the term ludicrous, which seems to be the crux of the reaction. I strongly disagree there is a lack of reasonable transparency, even in this case.
It’s not just the SEALs. Here in Japan, the USS Fitzgerald incident
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/01/14/worse-than-you-thought-inside-the-secret-fitzgerald-probe-the-navy-doesnt-want-you-to-read/
occurred, which, when almost immediately followed by the USS John McCain incident,
https://features.propublica.org/navy-accidents/us-navy-crashes-japan-cause-mccain/
Led to the Pacific fleet being stood down.
https://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/cno-orders-navy-wide-pause-broad-review-after-2nd-pacific-collision-in-2-months-1.483806
It’s not just the SEALs. Here in Japan, the USS Fitzgerald incident
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/01/14/worse-than-you-thought-inside-the-secret-fitzgerald-probe-the-navy-doesnt-want-you-to-read/
occurred, which, when almost immediately followed by the USS John McCain incident,
https://features.propublica.org/navy-accidents/us-navy-crashes-japan-cause-mccain/
Led to the Pacific fleet being stood down.
https://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/cno-orders-navy-wide-pause-broad-review-after-2nd-pacific-collision-in-2-months-1.483806
Ah, I see the problem. I say transparency and you think Trump. They both start with T, so why not
If you read what you quoted, I didn’t say ANYTHING about Trump. I don’t believe there is any transparency in the discussion of THIS INCIDENT, as was laid out in the article I LINKED TO IN THE GOD DAMNED POST. If you can’t bother to read what I post, don’t comment. I don’t have time to teach you how to understand plain English.
I don’t care if you want to defend Trump. It just makes you look like an idiot. I do, however, get fed up when you use misreadings of what I write to go off on your tangents.
Ah, I see the problem. I say transparency and you think Trump. They both start with T, so why not
If you read what you quoted, I didn’t say ANYTHING about Trump. I don’t believe there is any transparency in the discussion of THIS INCIDENT, as was laid out in the article I LINKED TO IN THE GOD DAMNED POST. If you can’t bother to read what I post, don’t comment. I don’t have time to teach you how to understand plain English.
I don’t care if you want to defend Trump. It just makes you look like an idiot. I do, however, get fed up when you use misreadings of what I write to go off on your tangents.
I understand lj. Rather than go back and forth I will point you to the comments I made specific to the post.
I am not conceding I unilaterally took this off track, but i did move it further off.
I understand lj. Rather than go back and forth I will point you to the comments I made specific to the post.
I am not conceding I unilaterally took this off track, but i did move it further off.
The Trump Administration isn’t very ‘transparent’ (cf., responses to requests for information), but I suspect that Marty is mostly referring Trump himself.
And ‘transparent’ is not really the correct term. Unfiltered is (IMO) more accurate.
Not sure how many of you saw signs in things like high-school shop classes:
“Make sure BRAIN is operating at full speed before engaging MOUTH”
Trump failed shop class, it’s clear.
The Trump Administration isn’t very ‘transparent’ (cf., responses to requests for information), but I suspect that Marty is mostly referring Trump himself.
And ‘transparent’ is not really the correct term. Unfiltered is (IMO) more accurate.
Not sure how many of you saw signs in things like high-school shop classes:
“Make sure BRAIN is operating at full speed before engaging MOUTH”
Trump failed shop class, it’s clear.
what are the chances Trump has ever touched a power tool in his life?
what are the chances Trump has ever touched a power tool in his life?
“What are the chances Trump has ever touched a power tool in his life?”
Just yesterday during his “I Can’t Feel Your Disease” White House campaign whistle stop.
How could ya miss it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxi2dwXHJZY
“What are the chances Trump has ever touched a power tool in his life?”
Just yesterday during his “I Can’t Feel Your Disease” White House campaign whistle stop.
How could ya miss it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxi2dwXHJZY
Transparency:
https://finance.yahoo.com/video/president-donald-trump-removes-independent-174529818.html
I’m in the sixth grade, and I know who the fifth grader is around here. That he was allowed to move on from the 4th grade must be some of that non-judgmental liberal feel-good all children are important nonsense the progressive educational elites have been foisting on us lo these many decades since at least John Dewey:
https://condenaststore.com/featured/im-not-a-metaphor-emily-flake.html
That’s some figurative literalness, right c’here.
I’ll be back later or maybe tomorrow in case cooler heads start to prevail.
Transparency:
https://finance.yahoo.com/video/president-donald-trump-removes-independent-174529818.html
I’m in the sixth grade, and I know who the fifth grader is around here. That he was allowed to move on from the 4th grade must be some of that non-judgmental liberal feel-good all children are important nonsense the progressive educational elites have been foisting on us lo these many decades since at least John Dewey:
https://condenaststore.com/featured/im-not-a-metaphor-emily-flake.html
That’s some figurative literalness, right c’here.
I’ll be back later or maybe tomorrow in case cooler heads start to prevail.
That’s what makes it a selfless act.
And, it’s not clear to me that Capt. Crozier actually went outside the chain of command. Does anyone have evidence that he put his letter in the public domain?
First, we don’t have anywhere near full facts. And I have no military experience but I’ve read Tom Clancy. So there. But with available info, I don’t know that this was a selfless act.
The state of our readiness is critical information. It is also extremely confidential. With China doing what China does in the South China Sea and apparently ramping things up with the opportunity COVID-19 presents, it was all the more important that the letter not get into the public domain.
What I understand is that by disseminating the letter outside of his direct line of command, he increased the risk that it would become public domain. Or actually intended that it would.
He obviously felt very strongly about this, and I would tend to give deference to an officer of his caliber. At the same time, members of the military sign up to put themselves in greater danger so that the rest of us can be safe. This is a nuclear aircraft carrier on deployment. It needs to appear ready to fight even when it is not. The “not a single sailor” line, although true, doesn’t work for me in a message that you expect will obtain a broader audience (i.e. one outside his chain of command).
The tone of the letter is didactic and some of the information unnecessary for its purpose. Do you really need to tell your superiors that an aircraft carrier is not the ideal environment to fight COVID-19? It seems it was in fact aimed at a wider audience.
In short, it may have been more selfless to simply tell his superiors the current status of COVID-19, candidly state the operational readiness of the carrier, restate in strong terms his request for assistance, but keep it in house.
That’s what makes it a selfless act.
And, it’s not clear to me that Capt. Crozier actually went outside the chain of command. Does anyone have evidence that he put his letter in the public domain?
First, we don’t have anywhere near full facts. And I have no military experience but I’ve read Tom Clancy. So there. But with available info, I don’t know that this was a selfless act.
The state of our readiness is critical information. It is also extremely confidential. With China doing what China does in the South China Sea and apparently ramping things up with the opportunity COVID-19 presents, it was all the more important that the letter not get into the public domain.
What I understand is that by disseminating the letter outside of his direct line of command, he increased the risk that it would become public domain. Or actually intended that it would.
He obviously felt very strongly about this, and I would tend to give deference to an officer of his caliber. At the same time, members of the military sign up to put themselves in greater danger so that the rest of us can be safe. This is a nuclear aircraft carrier on deployment. It needs to appear ready to fight even when it is not. The “not a single sailor” line, although true, doesn’t work for me in a message that you expect will obtain a broader audience (i.e. one outside his chain of command).
The tone of the letter is didactic and some of the information unnecessary for its purpose. Do you really need to tell your superiors that an aircraft carrier is not the ideal environment to fight COVID-19? It seems it was in fact aimed at a wider audience.
In short, it may have been more selfless to simply tell his superiors the current status of COVID-19, candidly state the operational readiness of the carrier, restate in strong terms his request for assistance, but keep it in house.
the lives of thousands vs the precious system ?
fuck the system.
the lives of thousands vs the precious system ?
fuck the system.
So the Navy Secretary thought it a good use of his time to fly out to the carrier… to swear at the crew.
And might now resign.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/07/thomas-modly-coronavirus-speech-resign-navy-172625
I fully admit that perhaps I don’t understand this whole chain of command thing.
So the Navy Secretary thought it a good use of his time to fly out to the carrier… to swear at the crew.
And might now resign.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/07/thomas-modly-coronavirus-speech-resign-navy-172625
I fully admit that perhaps I don’t understand this whole chain of command thing.
Do you really need to tell your superiors that an aircraft carrier is not the ideal environment to fight COVID-19?
I don’t know about the rest of you. But if I’ve tried getting something done thru channels, and gotten nowhere. Then I decide to lay out the case more broadly. At that point, I lay out all the details of my case — even those which “everybody knows”, because I want the whole thing to cover every piece.
Note also the Mar 30 all hands message from the CNO. He said, in part:
Note that the first priority listed is “taking care of you”. And when doing that will improve mission readiness (by getting a healthy crew back in place sooner), there’s no real doubt it’s what he should have done.
Do you really need to tell your superiors that an aircraft carrier is not the ideal environment to fight COVID-19?
I don’t know about the rest of you. But if I’ve tried getting something done thru channels, and gotten nowhere. Then I decide to lay out the case more broadly. At that point, I lay out all the details of my case — even those which “everybody knows”, because I want the whole thing to cover every piece.
Note also the Mar 30 all hands message from the CNO. He said, in part:
Note that the first priority listed is “taking care of you”. And when doing that will improve mission readiness (by getting a healthy crew back in place sooner), there’s no real doubt it’s what he should have done.
bc – check that second link in the first comment to the thread above. Lots of parallels between Crozier and T.R.
I don’t think anyone is surprised that Crozier has been disciplined. I think people, especially military people, are shocked at the way in which this administration has inserted itself into matters of internal discipline and used them for political gain.
Hard to have any discipline when the people at the top have none and are the worst sorts of popinjays.
Preparedness is crucial info, but the response has given away a lot more than readiness. Our military rivals can see the chaos at the top and are sure to continue putting on the pressure to widen the cracks.
No idol with feet of clay here. The administration is entirely made of clay with a thin veneer of gold leaf for promo shots.
bc – check that second link in the first comment to the thread above. Lots of parallels between Crozier and T.R.
I don’t think anyone is surprised that Crozier has been disciplined. I think people, especially military people, are shocked at the way in which this administration has inserted itself into matters of internal discipline and used them for political gain.
Hard to have any discipline when the people at the top have none and are the worst sorts of popinjays.
Preparedness is crucial info, but the response has given away a lot more than readiness. Our military rivals can see the chaos at the top and are sure to continue putting on the pressure to widen the cracks.
No idol with feet of clay here. The administration is entirely made of clay with a thin veneer of gold leaf for promo shots.
BC, after reading your comment, I read Capt. Crozier’s letter, which I probably should have done before my original comment.
Fortunately, nothing about his letter suggests–at least to me–that he is addressing a “wider audience”; rather, my take is that he’s already given this speech a half dozen times and has either gotten no answer or no useful answer, and since we are not at war, he feels like taking care of his people is a higher priority than staging in the South China Sea.
It is unlikely to the point of fantasy that the PRC is going to make a major move at sea if it thinks the Roosevelt is going to be in dock. Quite frankly, the more likely concern the PRC has right now is the who-knows-how-many sick people it has and what to do going forward.
One can, pretty easily, find out just how close quarters navy life is at sea. Any ship is like the world’s largest elevator, and everyone is riding on it. That’s why these cruise ships are having such a nightmare, and at least they have separate cabins. Sailors sleep in bunk rooms, eat and work communally. I thought Capt. Crozier’s letter did nothing but make eminently reasonable points.
Nigel, good link. Modly is a douche. Capt. Crozier steps up, civilian leadership abandon’s ship. Up to 5000 sailors living in a huge petri dish, that is a given. Capt. Crozier offers a solution to an obvious problem–where is the alternative solution?
I’m more convinced than ever that this is a failure of leadership at the top, again, as a result of our president.
BC, after reading your comment, I read Capt. Crozier’s letter, which I probably should have done before my original comment.
Fortunately, nothing about his letter suggests–at least to me–that he is addressing a “wider audience”; rather, my take is that he’s already given this speech a half dozen times and has either gotten no answer or no useful answer, and since we are not at war, he feels like taking care of his people is a higher priority than staging in the South China Sea.
It is unlikely to the point of fantasy that the PRC is going to make a major move at sea if it thinks the Roosevelt is going to be in dock. Quite frankly, the more likely concern the PRC has right now is the who-knows-how-many sick people it has and what to do going forward.
One can, pretty easily, find out just how close quarters navy life is at sea. Any ship is like the world’s largest elevator, and everyone is riding on it. That’s why these cruise ships are having such a nightmare, and at least they have separate cabins. Sailors sleep in bunk rooms, eat and work communally. I thought Capt. Crozier’s letter did nothing but make eminently reasonable points.
Nigel, good link. Modly is a douche. Capt. Crozier steps up, civilian leadership abandon’s ship. Up to 5000 sailors living in a huge petri dish, that is a given. Capt. Crozier offers a solution to an obvious problem–where is the alternative solution?
I’m more convinced than ever that this is a failure of leadership at the top, again, as a result of our president.
I fully admit that perhaps I don’t understand this whole chain of command thing.
I understand it. And have had to go outside it to get crucial information out to people further up the chain of command, who needed to know what was being done in their name, and the name of their government.
Preparedness is crucial info, but the response has given away a lot more than readiness. Our military rivals can see the chaos at the top and are sure to continue putting on the pressure to widen the cracks.
No idol with feet of clay here. The administration is entirely made of clay with a thin veneer of gold leaf for promo shots.
This, this, a thousand times this. And the second para cements nous’s current rep for being seriously on fire WRT coining images which are the last word. I’m losing count: “not just an axe to grind but owns the whole foundry”, “Schrodinger’s scapegoat” and I know damn well I’ve left at least one or two out. I hope someone else is keeping count.
I fully admit that perhaps I don’t understand this whole chain of command thing.
I understand it. And have had to go outside it to get crucial information out to people further up the chain of command, who needed to know what was being done in their name, and the name of their government.
Preparedness is crucial info, but the response has given away a lot more than readiness. Our military rivals can see the chaos at the top and are sure to continue putting on the pressure to widen the cracks.
No idol with feet of clay here. The administration is entirely made of clay with a thin veneer of gold leaf for promo shots.
This, this, a thousand times this. And the second para cements nous’s current rep for being seriously on fire WRT coining images which are the last word. I’m losing count: “not just an axe to grind but owns the whole foundry”, “Schrodinger’s scapegoat” and I know damn well I’ve left at least one or two out. I hope someone else is keeping count.
I’m more convinced than ever that this is a failure of leadership at the top, again, as a result of our president.
Rather hard to work out why anybody would think anything different.
I’m more convinced than ever that this is a failure of leadership at the top, again, as a result of our president.
Rather hard to work out why anybody would think anything different.
In short, it may have been more selfless to simply tell his superiors the current status of COVID-19, candidly state the operational readiness of the carrier, restate in strong terms his request for assistance, but keep it in house.
BC, apologies for having commented before reading this. I’m of the view that the letter is the result of Capt Crozier having done exactly as you think he should have and gotten nothing in return.
Now, I could be wrong. This could have been the first shot fired. That, of course, would make him a hot-head and a pop-off and incompetent to be commanding a fleet carrier. I don’t think he’s any of those things.
Regardless, here’s my question: if Capt Crozier did exactly as you say he should have and if he got radio silence as a response, what is his next step? Soldier on? Because, what I don’t hear coming out of DC, but I could have missed it, is “Hey, this is the first we’ve heard of you guys having CV on your ship. That’s awful.
Why didn’t you tell us sooner? Of course, bring your ship in and let’s find a place to put your crew!”.
I’m in a business where chickenshit is considered just good, clean fun by a certain slice of my colleagues. Slamming someone for the first time with previously undisclosed “facts” when there is limited-to-no time to respond is the way 10-15% of trial lawyers roll. There is almost always a larger, external pattern and context that outs the assholes.
No one is saying, that I can see, that Capt. Crozier blind-sided the Navy with news they’d never before been given. I’m not seeing that larger, external context.
That tells me a lot, and the reason why this pisses me off so much is that, like you, I favor a strong national defense, particularly a cutting edge and larger than necessary navy and air force. When I see this kind of asshattery at the highest levels, I see red.
In short, it may have been more selfless to simply tell his superiors the current status of COVID-19, candidly state the operational readiness of the carrier, restate in strong terms his request for assistance, but keep it in house.
BC, apologies for having commented before reading this. I’m of the view that the letter is the result of Capt Crozier having done exactly as you think he should have and gotten nothing in return.
Now, I could be wrong. This could have been the first shot fired. That, of course, would make him a hot-head and a pop-off and incompetent to be commanding a fleet carrier. I don’t think he’s any of those things.
Regardless, here’s my question: if Capt Crozier did exactly as you say he should have and if he got radio silence as a response, what is his next step? Soldier on? Because, what I don’t hear coming out of DC, but I could have missed it, is “Hey, this is the first we’ve heard of you guys having CV on your ship. That’s awful.
Why didn’t you tell us sooner? Of course, bring your ship in and let’s find a place to put your crew!”.
I’m in a business where chickenshit is considered just good, clean fun by a certain slice of my colleagues. Slamming someone for the first time with previously undisclosed “facts” when there is limited-to-no time to respond is the way 10-15% of trial lawyers roll. There is almost always a larger, external pattern and context that outs the assholes.
No one is saying, that I can see, that Capt. Crozier blind-sided the Navy with news they’d never before been given. I’m not seeing that larger, external context.
That tells me a lot, and the reason why this pisses me off so much is that, like you, I favor a strong national defense, particularly a cutting edge and larger than necessary navy and air force. When I see this kind of asshattery at the highest levels, I see red.
I understand it.
Not in the military, I should have said, but in a situation with somewhat parallel rules.
I understand it.
Not in the military, I should have said, but in a situation with somewhat parallel rules.
What GftNC said about nous being on fire. Wow!
What GftNC said about nous being on fire. Wow!
bc – check that second link in the first comment to the thread above. Lots of parallels between Crozier and T.R.
nous: Many parallels in terms of publication, but it doesn’t sound like the crew were anywhere near the condition of the troops in Roosevelt’s case. I don’t know that conflict enough to gauge the need to keep those troops there at that time from a strategic perspective.
And it appears that there were other options available to Crozier and email was not the way to do it if you wanted your superiors to act quickly (e.g. “Naval Message.”).
It is unlikely to the point of fantasy that the PRC is going to make a major move at sea if it thinks the Roosevelt is going to be in dock.
This misses the point: (1) Carrier operational status is classified secret, I believe. It’s not the CO’s call; (2) And it’s secret for a reason. Part of the reason the PRC would never think about making a major move is the USN and its presumed operational status.
bc – check that second link in the first comment to the thread above. Lots of parallels between Crozier and T.R.
nous: Many parallels in terms of publication, but it doesn’t sound like the crew were anywhere near the condition of the troops in Roosevelt’s case. I don’t know that conflict enough to gauge the need to keep those troops there at that time from a strategic perspective.
And it appears that there were other options available to Crozier and email was not the way to do it if you wanted your superiors to act quickly (e.g. “Naval Message.”).
It is unlikely to the point of fantasy that the PRC is going to make a major move at sea if it thinks the Roosevelt is going to be in dock.
This misses the point: (1) Carrier operational status is classified secret, I believe. It’s not the CO’s call; (2) And it’s secret for a reason. Part of the reason the PRC would never think about making a major move is the USN and its presumed operational status.
Carrier operational status is classified secret, I believe. It’s not the CO’s cal
But if everybody he copied on the email has Secret clearance (as seems likely), then he hasn’t violated that.
The person who leaked the email may have. But so far, nobody seems to be putting any effort into even finding out who it was. Beyond determining, as we already have, that Crozier wasn’t the one who leaked it to the media.
Carrier operational status is classified secret, I believe. It’s not the CO’s cal
But if everybody he copied on the email has Secret clearance (as seems likely), then he hasn’t violated that.
The person who leaked the email may have. But so far, nobody seems to be putting any effort into even finding out who it was. Beyond determining, as we already have, that Crozier wasn’t the one who leaked it to the media.
When I see this kind of asshattery at the highest levels, I see red.
McKinney: I’m assuming, like you, that it was not the first communication. I am assuming, but do not know, that there is a more effective way. William Toti, (retired captain of an attack sub) wrote an op-ed in the WSJ (behind the paywall). I’ve read other comments by him and he maintains there is a much better way to persist in getting attention (Naval Message) than what he did and feels like Crozier’s actions were unacceptable. He also didn’t like the congregated crew giving him a sendoff.
So, to answer your question: With the usual “don’t know all the facts” disclaimer, he should have persisted in the chain of command until he was removed privately if he felt that strongly about it, not done it in a way that led to the letter going public.
I agree with your “asshattery” statement, if that is in fact what was happening re the response to Crozier’s requests before the letter. But even more so is the way they removed him. It should have been done, IMHO, quietly and privately. Modly’s comments to the crew simply made the situation worse.
But if everybody he copied on the email has Secret clearance (as seems likely), . .
I don’t necessarily disagree if that is the case. But Toti says Crozier attached the letter to an “unclassified email.” So . . .
When I see this kind of asshattery at the highest levels, I see red.
McKinney: I’m assuming, like you, that it was not the first communication. I am assuming, but do not know, that there is a more effective way. William Toti, (retired captain of an attack sub) wrote an op-ed in the WSJ (behind the paywall). I’ve read other comments by him and he maintains there is a much better way to persist in getting attention (Naval Message) than what he did and feels like Crozier’s actions were unacceptable. He also didn’t like the congregated crew giving him a sendoff.
So, to answer your question: With the usual “don’t know all the facts” disclaimer, he should have persisted in the chain of command until he was removed privately if he felt that strongly about it, not done it in a way that led to the letter going public.
I agree with your “asshattery” statement, if that is in fact what was happening re the response to Crozier’s requests before the letter. But even more so is the way they removed him. It should have been done, IMHO, quietly and privately. Modly’s comments to the crew simply made the situation worse.
But if everybody he copied on the email has Secret clearance (as seems likely), . .
I don’t necessarily disagree if that is the case. But Toti says Crozier attached the letter to an “unclassified email.” So . . .
The USS Theodore Roosevelt incident is looking a bit like the top-down authority, bottom-up responsibility that I’ve accused the CCP of. The port call in Da Nang, Vietnam is looking like a political stunt to annoy the Chinese. Now, Crozier is being blamed for making a port call he was ordered to make. And for the COVID-19 infection, the crew may have picked up there.
“The Navy was well aware it was putting carrier personnel at extreme risk and made faulty preparations in case of infection. A close reading of Captain Crozier’s March 30 letter makes it clear that the Navy did not equip the carrier with either proper testing capabilities or instructions on what to do if anyone got sick. The actual number of infected personnel on the Theodore Roosevelt is not known, but it is thought to be more than 100.
According to a March 12 press release from the US Indo-Pacific Command, “sailors from both ships participated in cultural exchanges and community service projects, including making crafts, playing sports, a language exchange, gardening, and painting” at a variety of locations.”
US aircraft carrier should never have been sent to Vietnam: US Navy knew of the risk posed by Covid-19 on board ships but still sent the Theodore Roosevelt to Da Nang
“President Donald Trump criticized the ousted commander of the USS Theodore Roosevelt at a press conference on Saturday, calling it “inappropriate” that Capt. Brett Crozier wrote a letter pleading with senior leaders to evacuate COVID-19-infected sailors from his ship while blaming him for making a port call in Vietnam despite the visit being approved at the highest levels of the Navy.
“Now I guess the captain stopped in Vietnam and people got off in Vietnam,” Trump said when asked to comment on the Navy’s decision to fire Crozier, despite intense admiration among the ship’s crew of roughly 4,000 sailors.
“Perhaps you don’t do that in the middle of a pandemic or something that looked like it was going to be. History says you don’t necessarily stop and let your sailors get off, number one,” Trump added, criticizing Crozier for conducting a port call he was ordered to make by Adm. Phil Davidson, the commander of U.S. Indo-Pacific Command.”
Trump blames Capt. Crozier for stopping in Vietnam and calls letter to Navy leadership ‘inappropriate’
The USS Theodore Roosevelt incident is looking a bit like the top-down authority, bottom-up responsibility that I’ve accused the CCP of. The port call in Da Nang, Vietnam is looking like a political stunt to annoy the Chinese. Now, Crozier is being blamed for making a port call he was ordered to make. And for the COVID-19 infection, the crew may have picked up there.
“The Navy was well aware it was putting carrier personnel at extreme risk and made faulty preparations in case of infection. A close reading of Captain Crozier’s March 30 letter makes it clear that the Navy did not equip the carrier with either proper testing capabilities or instructions on what to do if anyone got sick. The actual number of infected personnel on the Theodore Roosevelt is not known, but it is thought to be more than 100.
According to a March 12 press release from the US Indo-Pacific Command, “sailors from both ships participated in cultural exchanges and community service projects, including making crafts, playing sports, a language exchange, gardening, and painting” at a variety of locations.”
US aircraft carrier should never have been sent to Vietnam: US Navy knew of the risk posed by Covid-19 on board ships but still sent the Theodore Roosevelt to Da Nang
“President Donald Trump criticized the ousted commander of the USS Theodore Roosevelt at a press conference on Saturday, calling it “inappropriate” that Capt. Brett Crozier wrote a letter pleading with senior leaders to evacuate COVID-19-infected sailors from his ship while blaming him for making a port call in Vietnam despite the visit being approved at the highest levels of the Navy.
“Now I guess the captain stopped in Vietnam and people got off in Vietnam,” Trump said when asked to comment on the Navy’s decision to fire Crozier, despite intense admiration among the ship’s crew of roughly 4,000 sailors.
“Perhaps you don’t do that in the middle of a pandemic or something that looked like it was going to be. History says you don’t necessarily stop and let your sailors get off, number one,” Trump added, criticizing Crozier for conducting a port call he was ordered to make by Adm. Phil Davidson, the commander of U.S. Indo-Pacific Command.”
Trump blames Capt. Crozier for stopping in Vietnam and calls letter to Navy leadership ‘inappropriate’
I am assuming, but do not know, that there is a more effective way.
Why would you make that assumption, given the current administration and the apparent and reasonably inferable fact that what Capt. Crozier said was apparently “not news” to anyone upstairs? Do you think there was another way, but that Capt. Crozier, for reasons not yet evident, decided to publicly fall on his sword, and if so, to what end? If there was a better way, it would be irrational not to take it.
William Toti, (retired captain of an attack sub) wrote an op-ed in the WSJ (behind the paywall). I’ve read other comments by him and he maintains there is a much better way to persist in getting attention (Naval Message) than what he did and feels like Crozier’s actions were unacceptable. He also didn’t like the congregated crew giving him a sendoff.
I suspect Capt. Toti retired before having the privilege of serving under our current C-in-C. If nothing else isn’t crystal clear, it is that no one subject to DT’s reach is permitted to question him much less embarrass him. I suspect Capt. Toti has not walked in the shoes of Capt. Crozier, i.e. in the Time of Trump, and I do not think his valid, but historical, defense of Capt. McVay is equivalent.
I quit watching TV years ago. Now that we along with most of the country are self-quarantining, I was induced to watch TV by my beloved spouse. It was a C-Span live DT and Co dog and pony show about CV. Not only is DT patently, clinically narcissistic, he’s pretty stupid–almost clown-like in his lack of situational awareness–and, outside his limited world, has a vocabulary that lines up well with Molly, my chocolate lab. But the worse was the way everyone was required to fawn over DT, to thank him for his leadership, to go on and on about his contribution to the fight against CV. It was an embarrassment.
I cannot help but believe that DT’s style has permeated the senior military leadership. Those with the real backbone have stepped down. The compromises others have to be making make me nauseous to think about.
Again, referring to my own career, narcissists are not unheard of in the legal community. Since most of my clients are corporations, I deal with in-house legal, of whom 99% are competent and professional. But, from time to time, I get a mini-Trump, or someone not too far off. Life is to short. I fire those clients. They aren’t worth it.
I am assuming, but do not know, that there is a more effective way.
Why would you make that assumption, given the current administration and the apparent and reasonably inferable fact that what Capt. Crozier said was apparently “not news” to anyone upstairs? Do you think there was another way, but that Capt. Crozier, for reasons not yet evident, decided to publicly fall on his sword, and if so, to what end? If there was a better way, it would be irrational not to take it.
William Toti, (retired captain of an attack sub) wrote an op-ed in the WSJ (behind the paywall). I’ve read other comments by him and he maintains there is a much better way to persist in getting attention (Naval Message) than what he did and feels like Crozier’s actions were unacceptable. He also didn’t like the congregated crew giving him a sendoff.
I suspect Capt. Toti retired before having the privilege of serving under our current C-in-C. If nothing else isn’t crystal clear, it is that no one subject to DT’s reach is permitted to question him much less embarrass him. I suspect Capt. Toti has not walked in the shoes of Capt. Crozier, i.e. in the Time of Trump, and I do not think his valid, but historical, defense of Capt. McVay is equivalent.
I quit watching TV years ago. Now that we along with most of the country are self-quarantining, I was induced to watch TV by my beloved spouse. It was a C-Span live DT and Co dog and pony show about CV. Not only is DT patently, clinically narcissistic, he’s pretty stupid–almost clown-like in his lack of situational awareness–and, outside his limited world, has a vocabulary that lines up well with Molly, my chocolate lab. But the worse was the way everyone was required to fawn over DT, to thank him for his leadership, to go on and on about his contribution to the fight against CV. It was an embarrassment.
I cannot help but believe that DT’s style has permeated the senior military leadership. Those with the real backbone have stepped down. The compromises others have to be making make me nauseous to think about.
Again, referring to my own career, narcissists are not unheard of in the legal community. Since most of my clients are corporations, I deal with in-house legal, of whom 99% are competent and professional. But, from time to time, I get a mini-Trump, or someone not too far off. Life is to short. I fire those clients. They aren’t worth it.
he maintains there is a much better way to persist in getting attention (Naval Message) than what he did and feels like Crozier’s actions were unacceptable. He also didn’t like the congregated crew giving him a sendoff.
That latter seems to have particularly outraged the civilians. It’s unheard of for that to happen spontaneously, as it apparently did in this case. And shows up the SecNav (and the rest of the civilians leaders) for exactly the kind of clueless assh*les that they are.
he maintains there is a much better way to persist in getting attention (Naval Message) than what he did and feels like Crozier’s actions were unacceptable. He also didn’t like the congregated crew giving him a sendoff.
That latter seems to have particularly outraged the civilians. It’s unheard of for that to happen spontaneously, as it apparently did in this case. And shows up the SecNav (and the rest of the civilians leaders) for exactly the kind of clueless assh*les that they are.
Modly resigned!
Modly resigned!
Modly resigned!
Next up: Acting Navy Secretary Jared Kushner.
Modly resigned!
Next up: Acting Navy Secretary Jared Kushner.
He also didn’t like the congregated crew giving him a sendoff.
This alone renders his judgement not worth the paper it was printed on. Quite apart from McKinney’s (absolutely correct) 05.31, this was the only way the crew could show their gratitude to someone who (quite properly) had prioritised their welfare to his own detriment. In exceptional circumstances (i.e. the service being headed by an incompetent, stupid, narcissist or his appeasers), the men were right to express themselves and indicate to the world what they thought of their captain, since that was the only (comparatively benign and symbolic) avenue open to them. I have no doubt it meant a lot to Crozier, and that alone made it worthwhile.
And what wj said.
He also didn’t like the congregated crew giving him a sendoff.
This alone renders his judgement not worth the paper it was printed on. Quite apart from McKinney’s (absolutely correct) 05.31, this was the only way the crew could show their gratitude to someone who (quite properly) had prioritised their welfare to his own detriment. In exceptional circumstances (i.e. the service being headed by an incompetent, stupid, narcissist or his appeasers), the men were right to express themselves and indicate to the world what they thought of their captain, since that was the only (comparatively benign and symbolic) avenue open to them. I have no doubt it meant a lot to Crozier, and that alone made it worthwhile.
And what wj said.
Next up: Acting Navy Secretary Jared Kushner.
Literally made me laugh out loud.
Next up: Acting Navy Secretary Jared Kushner.
Literally made me laugh out loud.
And McKinney: the world has been watching those DJT performances. Quite apart from what all this does to America’s standing internationally, can you imagine what the rest of the world makes of his climbing domestic approval ratings? It is, and I use this word advisedly, incomprehensible.
And McKinney: the world has been watching those DJT performances. Quite apart from what all this does to America’s standing internationally, can you imagine what the rest of the world makes of his climbing domestic approval ratings? It is, and I use this word advisedly, incomprehensible.
Quite apart from what all this does to America’s standing internationally, can you imagine what the rest of the world makes of his climbing domestic approval ratings? It is, and I use this word advisedly, incomprehensible.
American standing internationally has been done for long since. However, I don’t think the approval ratings will hold.
Quite apart from what all this does to America’s standing internationally, can you imagine what the rest of the world makes of his climbing domestic approval ratings? It is, and I use this word advisedly, incomprehensible.
American standing internationally has been done for long since. However, I don’t think the approval ratings will hold.
Morning all. Just to clarify, two masters was precisely the situation that Crozier was in. Given what we know about the virus. on a ship where it is impossible to maintain social distance, he can either do what he did or keep trying to get his higher ups to change their mind. It is the basic conflict that the Iliad is based around. Agamemnon and Achilles are both correct, Agamemnon for saying that he is due the deference of Achilles as ἄναξ, which implies his connection to the gods, and Achilles, because he is the first among equals.
As I said, I haven’t any lived experience in the military, but I do know that the hierarchy is what it is about. Perhaps it might have been clearer if I could have quoted the twitter thread that observed that both sides are right. Viewed from the level of Crozier’s decision and his firing, I think that is true. Viewed from the larger context, I think you all know what I think, so I don’t need to belabor it.
So whether this was some top down nonsense or not is not really my concern (though I point out that true to form, following CharlesWT’s links, Trump is a total coward who is trying to have it both ways and if you can’t see that, you are an idiot), but I understand if some may want to hash that out. Whatevs.
At any rate, Modly has resigned.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/07/thomas-modly-coronavirus-speech-resign-navy-172625
which is probably related to the speech he gave
https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/491510-navy-secretary-modlys-aircraft-carrier-speech-misfires-badly
A lot of the speech reporting drops out a lot of context that I think is important, in that Modly flew 8000 miles to the carrier, came on board and addressed the crew using the ship’s intercom. I also got a laugh out of Esper’s send off of Modly from the first link, which was
“He resigned on his own accord, putting the Navy and Sailors above self so that the USS Theodore Roosevelt, and the Navy as an institution, can move forward,” Esper said in a statement.
That’s got to be hard to dictate that when your tongue is poking out of your cheek…
The content of Modly’s speech is also interesting rhetorically, with a number of tropes that are interesting, including the invocation of China (seeming to imply that this virus is part of a war by making an equivalence between being afraid under fire and being afraid of this virus) and the “You are under no obligation to love your leadership, only to respect it”. So too was the accusation of Crozier ‘did this on purpose’ which suggests that Modly thinks that Crozier is viewing all this thru the lens that either you are for us or against us.
Almost every modern movie related to war has a scene where a character talks about how combat provides clarity: It turns the world into an us vs. them and makes decisions that one has to pause over in other times assume a black and white clarity. Oftentimes the character(s) end up longing for that clarity, and finding themselves adrift when it isn’t there. Trying to get that clarity is why philosophers post trolley track problems and strip out context in order to arrive at a clearly defined choice. But to get that clarity in the real world, you generally have to create an us vs them situation. The fact that it happened in this situation and not in some sort of combat tells us a lot about where we are.
Morning all. Just to clarify, two masters was precisely the situation that Crozier was in. Given what we know about the virus. on a ship where it is impossible to maintain social distance, he can either do what he did or keep trying to get his higher ups to change their mind. It is the basic conflict that the Iliad is based around. Agamemnon and Achilles are both correct, Agamemnon for saying that he is due the deference of Achilles as ἄναξ, which implies his connection to the gods, and Achilles, because he is the first among equals.
As I said, I haven’t any lived experience in the military, but I do know that the hierarchy is what it is about. Perhaps it might have been clearer if I could have quoted the twitter thread that observed that both sides are right. Viewed from the level of Crozier’s decision and his firing, I think that is true. Viewed from the larger context, I think you all know what I think, so I don’t need to belabor it.
So whether this was some top down nonsense or not is not really my concern (though I point out that true to form, following CharlesWT’s links, Trump is a total coward who is trying to have it both ways and if you can’t see that, you are an idiot), but I understand if some may want to hash that out. Whatevs.
At any rate, Modly has resigned.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/07/thomas-modly-coronavirus-speech-resign-navy-172625
which is probably related to the speech he gave
https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/491510-navy-secretary-modlys-aircraft-carrier-speech-misfires-badly
A lot of the speech reporting drops out a lot of context that I think is important, in that Modly flew 8000 miles to the carrier, came on board and addressed the crew using the ship’s intercom. I also got a laugh out of Esper’s send off of Modly from the first link, which was
“He resigned on his own accord, putting the Navy and Sailors above self so that the USS Theodore Roosevelt, and the Navy as an institution, can move forward,” Esper said in a statement.
That’s got to be hard to dictate that when your tongue is poking out of your cheek…
The content of Modly’s speech is also interesting rhetorically, with a number of tropes that are interesting, including the invocation of China (seeming to imply that this virus is part of a war by making an equivalence between being afraid under fire and being afraid of this virus) and the “You are under no obligation to love your leadership, only to respect it”. So too was the accusation of Crozier ‘did this on purpose’ which suggests that Modly thinks that Crozier is viewing all this thru the lens that either you are for us or against us.
Almost every modern movie related to war has a scene where a character talks about how combat provides clarity: It turns the world into an us vs. them and makes decisions that one has to pause over in other times assume a black and white clarity. Oftentimes the character(s) end up longing for that clarity, and finding themselves adrift when it isn’t there. Trying to get that clarity is why philosophers post trolley track problems and strip out context in order to arrive at a clearly defined choice. But to get that clarity in the real world, you generally have to create an us vs them situation. The fact that it happened in this situation and not in some sort of combat tells us a lot about where we are.
Oh, and I just saw wj’s comment about the civilians getting angry about the send off Crozier got. I find it astonishing that Modly isn’t really a civilian, he was Annapolis class of 83. And it’s not like he was sent out there to tell of the crew, if he really didn’t like it, would he have flown 8000 miles to deliver a rant?
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/bio.asp?bioID=1031
Oh, and I just saw wj’s comment about the civilians getting angry about the send off Crozier got. I find it astonishing that Modly isn’t really a civilian, he was Annapolis class of 83. And it’s not like he was sent out there to tell of the crew, if he really didn’t like it, would he have flown 8000 miles to deliver a rant?
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/bio.asp?bioID=1031
I haven’t any lived experience in the military, but I do know that the hierarchy is what it is about.
What sometimes confuses outsiders is that the military is formally and officially very hierarchical. But with a variety of informal and unofficial caveats, exceptions, and ways of doing business which ignore that hierarchy when necessary. It works — and working is really what it’s all about. But when the nonheirarchical bits come to light, it can be a bit of a shock.
I haven’t any lived experience in the military, but I do know that the hierarchy is what it is about.
What sometimes confuses outsiders is that the military is formally and officially very hierarchical. But with a variety of informal and unofficial caveats, exceptions, and ways of doing business which ignore that hierarchy when necessary. It works — and working is really what it’s all about. But when the nonheirarchical bits come to light, it can be a bit of a shock.
…, can you imagine what the rest of the world makes of his climbing domestic approval ratings?
Leaders in most countries have climbing domestic approval ratings at the moment, deserved or not.
…, can you imagine what the rest of the world makes of his climbing domestic approval ratings?
Leaders in most countries have climbing domestic approval ratings at the moment, deserved or not.
if he really didn’t like it, would he have flown 8000 miles to deliver a rant?
Perhaps he thought just getting on the ship’s PA would be less public outside the ship than addressing the crew remotely. And he may have felt that, given Trump’s likely reaction to the crew’s sendoff of their captain, he may have felt a rant was necessary. A 8,000 mile trip isn’t the greatest exertion his toadies have made, trying to keep Trump calmed down.
if he really didn’t like it, would he have flown 8000 miles to deliver a rant?
Perhaps he thought just getting on the ship’s PA would be less public outside the ship than addressing the crew remotely. And he may have felt that, given Trump’s likely reaction to the crew’s sendoff of their captain, he may have felt a rant was necessary. A 8,000 mile trip isn’t the greatest exertion his toadies have made, trying to keep Trump calmed down.
Leaders in most countries have climbing domestic approval ratings at the moment, deserved or not.
And Trump’s have risen far less than most. Actually less than any I have seen reports of.
Leaders in most countries have climbing domestic approval ratings at the moment, deserved or not.
And Trump’s have risen far less than most. Actually less than any I have seen reports of.
Perhaps he thought just getting on the ship’s PA would be less public outside the ship than addressing the crew remotely.
Operational circumstances may have required it. But it seems to me that using the PA, instead of addressing an on deck formation, would be piling insult on insult.
Perhaps he thought just getting on the ship’s PA would be less public outside the ship than addressing the crew remotely.
Operational circumstances may have required it. But it seems to me that using the PA, instead of addressing an on deck formation, would be piling insult on insult.
Working in Japan, I understand that there is hierarchy and there is hierarchy. And figuring out those side doors, booby traps etc etc is survival 101. But when these things burst out in the open, they are really revealing.
Not wanting to get in the weeds, Hartmut’s point about the furoregegettingbangbang (just kidding, it was dem Führer entgegenarbeiten, but I can’t resist making a joke about German morphology) is what I think we are seeing.
Working in Japan, I understand that there is hierarchy and there is hierarchy. And figuring out those side doors, booby traps etc etc is survival 101. But when these things burst out in the open, they are really revealing.
Not wanting to get in the weeds, Hartmut’s point about the furoregegettingbangbang (just kidding, it was dem Führer entgegenarbeiten, but I can’t resist making a joke about German morphology) is what I think we are seeing.
But the worse was the way everyone was required to fawn over DT, to thank him for his leadership, to go on and on about his contribution to the fight against CV. It was an embarrassment.
I cannot help but believe that DT’s style has permeated the senior military leadership. Those with the real backbone have stepped down.
That is, and has been for a while now, the entire administration.
And increasingly the judiciary.
But the worse was the way everyone was required to fawn over DT, to thank him for his leadership, to go on and on about his contribution to the fight against CV. It was an embarrassment.
I cannot help but believe that DT’s style has permeated the senior military leadership. Those with the real backbone have stepped down.
That is, and has been for a while now, the entire administration.
And increasingly the judiciary.
And it’s not like he was sent out there to tell of[f?] the crew, if he really didn’t like it, would he have flown 8000 miles to deliver a rant?
I don’t understand this point, lj. Do you think he didn’t really mind Crozier’s sendoff?
And Trump’s have risen far less than most. Actually less than any I have seen reports of.
Ah, I didn’t know this, wj. But the fact remains, that almost 50% of the American public approve of his performance, even after they’ve seen its inadequacy play out in a national crisis. After all, you’ve got to figure quite a lot of them must be familiar with “kid who hasn’t done his assignment and is just bullshitting” syndrome (snark/shade), and since his “ratings” are so good, they’re actually watching it, and still approving (whereas one could always rationalise that his previous approval ratings were just MAGA people approving on principle). As I said, incomprehensible.
And it’s not like he was sent out there to tell of[f?] the crew, if he really didn’t like it, would he have flown 8000 miles to deliver a rant?
I don’t understand this point, lj. Do you think he didn’t really mind Crozier’s sendoff?
And Trump’s have risen far less than most. Actually less than any I have seen reports of.
Ah, I didn’t know this, wj. But the fact remains, that almost 50% of the American public approve of his performance, even after they’ve seen its inadequacy play out in a national crisis. After all, you’ve got to figure quite a lot of them must be familiar with “kid who hasn’t done his assignment and is just bullshitting” syndrome (snark/shade), and since his “ratings” are so good, they’re actually watching it, and still approving (whereas one could always rationalise that his previous approval ratings were just MAGA people approving on principle). As I said, incomprehensible.
Nigel: And increasingly the judiciary.
Brett Kavanaugh comes readily to mind. I kept harping on the fact that his public licking of He, Trump’s pasty ass the night of his nomination should have been disqualifying from the get-go, but the McConnell GOP decided that “not a rapist” was qualification enough.
I have been referring to “He, Trump” for so long that I almost forgot why. It’s a sort of reverse homage to “I, Claudius”. Claudius became emperor after the assassination of Caligula, who bears a closer resemblance to He, Trump than Claudius ever did. And what was the proximate motivation for Caligula’s murder? According to the Robert Graves novel, if not actual history, it was this: Caligula took to humiliating his generals by making them use embarrassing “watchwords” every day. Apparently 1st-century Roman generals had more self respect than the McConnell GOP does.
–TP
Nigel: And increasingly the judiciary.
Brett Kavanaugh comes readily to mind. I kept harping on the fact that his public licking of He, Trump’s pasty ass the night of his nomination should have been disqualifying from the get-go, but the McConnell GOP decided that “not a rapist” was qualification enough.
I have been referring to “He, Trump” for so long that I almost forgot why. It’s a sort of reverse homage to “I, Claudius”. Claudius became emperor after the assassination of Caligula, who bears a closer resemblance to He, Trump than Claudius ever did. And what was the proximate motivation for Caligula’s murder? According to the Robert Graves novel, if not actual history, it was this: Caligula took to humiliating his generals by making them use embarrassing “watchwords” every day. Apparently 1st-century Roman generals had more self respect than the McConnell GOP does.
–TP
And here I thought you were using the symbol for helium, TP, to represent the inflationary aspects of Trump’s ego (and it’s YUGE!). But then I guess I didn’t reflect upon the fact that helium is non-toxic, inert and a noble gas. Yet it is very simple as elements go and it does make one sound funny if you inhale and talk, so there is that.
And here I thought you were using the symbol for helium, TP, to represent the inflationary aspects of Trump’s ego (and it’s YUGE!). But then I guess I didn’t reflect upon the fact that helium is non-toxic, inert and a noble gas. Yet it is very simple as elements go and it does make one sound funny if you inhale and talk, so there is that.
OT, but a topic of recent conversation nonetheless. Apparently John Prine has passed away.
Hope he’s drinking that cocktail and smoking that cigarette nine miles long.
Thank you for the music, John.
I’m growing to hate this nasty SOB virus.
OT, but a topic of recent conversation nonetheless. Apparently John Prine has passed away.
Hope he’s drinking that cocktail and smoking that cigarette nine miles long.
Thank you for the music, John.
I’m growing to hate this nasty SOB virus.
I don’t understand this point, lj. Do you think he didn’t really mind Crozier’s sendoff?
I guess my point is that this is not a case of Modly thinking this is something he was forced to do. Maybe he thought that if he jumped on a military plane and did an intercom address, he felt it would solve problem X? But I cannot see what the problem could be that he would have thought that this was a good idea.
I don’t understand this point, lj. Do you think he didn’t really mind Crozier’s sendoff?
I guess my point is that this is not a case of Modly thinking this is something he was forced to do. Maybe he thought that if he jumped on a military plane and did an intercom address, he felt it would solve problem X? But I cannot see what the problem could be that he would have thought that this was a good idea.
I’m growing to hate this nasty SOB virus
I’m growing to hate this nasty SOB virus
But I cannot see what the problem could be that he would have thought that this was a good idea.
I suspect Modly’s “thought” process went something like this:
The problem being solved being the reaction of the toddler-in-chief. So Modly went. And gave the kind of crude rant Trump would imagine doing. (Too gutless to do in person, of course. But he likes imagining he would.)
Maybe not what Modly was thinking. But it fits the facts and the personalities involved.
But I cannot see what the problem could be that he would have thought that this was a good idea.
I suspect Modly’s “thought” process went something like this:
The problem being solved being the reaction of the toddler-in-chief. So Modly went. And gave the kind of crude rant Trump would imagine doing. (Too gutless to do in person, of course. But he likes imagining he would.)
Maybe not what Modly was thinking. But it fits the facts and the personalities involved.
In case you missed today’s White House pep talk from Trump and his phalanx of fully absorbed soul-killed zombie experts, you can spot Kudlow, Navarro, that’s probably Kelly Anne shitmouthing, and damned iffn I can’t hear Marty practicing his next comment at OBWI out loud somewheres in the choir of dissonant howling Evil in there, calling for the defunding of WHO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ita4YBhxXEY
In case you missed today’s White House pep talk from Trump and his phalanx of fully absorbed soul-killed zombie experts, you can spot Kudlow, Navarro, that’s probably Kelly Anne shitmouthing, and damned iffn I can’t hear Marty practicing his next comment at OBWI out loud somewheres in the choir of dissonant howling Evil in there, calling for the defunding of WHO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ita4YBhxXEY
Preview of tomorrow’s calming uplifting briefing from Trump. I believe he will speak redneck eloquently regarding the need to look in the mirror and continue the cessation of all national food and meat inspection, now retired, per the long-term goals of the subhuman conservative for the country these many decades, after COVID-19 kills as many niggers, and chinks and liberals as possible in MAGA-Land.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO21q7DWgSE
Preview of tomorrow’s calming uplifting briefing from Trump. I believe he will speak redneck eloquently regarding the need to look in the mirror and continue the cessation of all national food and meat inspection, now retired, per the long-term goals of the subhuman conservative for the country these many decades, after COVID-19 kills as many niggers, and chinks and liberals as possible in MAGA-Land.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO21q7DWgSE
…, calling for the defunding of WHO
Well, when you pay an organization half a billion dollars per year and they front for China…
…, calling for the defunding of WHO
Well, when you pay an organization half a billion dollars per year and they front for China…
https://www.facebook.com/Yourdailysmiles/videos/quarantine-day-12-hiding-in-the-closet-/502069987363855/?__so__=permalink&__rv__=related_videos
You’ll want to turn up the sound on this; it wins the internet for the entire plague of 2020-21.
They didn’t have this during the Black Death.
https://www.facebook.com/Yourdailysmiles/videos/quarantine-day-12-hiding-in-the-closet-/502069987363855/?__so__=permalink&__rv__=related_videos
You’ll want to turn up the sound on this; it wins the internet for the entire plague of 2020-21.
They didn’t have this during the Black Death.
Who you fronting for, Charles?
Who you fronting for, Charles?
You really don’t like China, do you Charles? Did you get yelled at Chinese waitstaff when you asked for ketchup?
You really don’t like China, do you Charles? Did you get yelled at Chinese waitstaff when you asked for ketchup?
I’m just fine with China. It’s the CCP I don’t care for.
I’m just fine with China. It’s the CCP I don’t care for.
But if you say “Well, when you pay an organization half a billion dollars per year and they front for the CCP”, it’s a bit different, don’t you think?
But if you say “Well, when you pay an organization half a billion dollars per year and they front for the CCP”, it’s a bit different, don’t you think?
A White House shitmouthman this morning, when asked to comment on the tragic death of John Prine from Covid-19, grotesquely contorted her Estee Lauder layered face mask attempting to barely stifle a visible smirk and a snort from the nose and said, alas, we are saddened by the loss of Prine to the music world, in fact we’ll miss his concerts where some of Donald Trump’s base so enjoy spreading fatal contagion, but we also view his passing as one less vote for Joe Biden.
A White House shitmouthman this morning, when asked to comment on the tragic death of John Prine from Covid-19, grotesquely contorted her Estee Lauder layered face mask attempting to barely stifle a visible smirk and a snort from the nose and said, alas, we are saddened by the loss of Prine to the music world, in fact we’ll miss his concerts where some of Donald Trump’s base so enjoy spreading fatal contagion, but we also view his passing as one less vote for Joe Biden.
…, calling for the defunding of WHO
Well, when you pay an organization half a billion dollars per year and they front for China…
Of course, at the time Trump himself was being pretty damn laudatory about China’s efforts on covid-19. Doesn’t really leave him room to talk. Or wouldn’t if his memory of what he said (about anything) stretched back more that 15 minutes or so.
…, calling for the defunding of WHO
Well, when you pay an organization half a billion dollars per year and they front for China…
Of course, at the time Trump himself was being pretty damn laudatory about China’s efforts on covid-19. Doesn’t really leave him room to talk. Or wouldn’t if his memory of what he said (about anything) stretched back more that 15 minutes or so.
and… Bernie’s out.
we have our ham sandwich. citizens, do your duty.
and… Bernie’s out.
we have our ham sandwich. citizens, do your duty.
Until I hear it from McKinney that we haven’t elected a Socialist as the Democratic Presidential candidate AND that he will follow through on his thoroughly provisional, head-fakey claim a while ago here that he “could” for Biden, like I’m going to, despite voting for Warren in the primary, because I’m a little angry that I didn’t become a dreaded “Socialist”, whatever that is, before losing $100,000 grand in the stock market over a six-week period, and then making back maybe 40% of it once “Socialism”, whatever that is, was declared the de facto trump conservative republican approach to pestilence and penury a few weeks ago …. take a breath .. I’m not believing anything about the existence of ham sandwiches as the centerpiece of the catastrophic picnic America is headed for.
Until I hear it from McKinney that we haven’t elected a Socialist as the Democratic Presidential candidate AND that he will follow through on his thoroughly provisional, head-fakey claim a while ago here that he “could” for Biden, like I’m going to, despite voting for Warren in the primary, because I’m a little angry that I didn’t become a dreaded “Socialist”, whatever that is, before losing $100,000 grand in the stock market over a six-week period, and then making back maybe 40% of it once “Socialism”, whatever that is, was declared the de facto trump conservative republican approach to pestilence and penury a few weeks ago …. take a breath .. I’m not believing anything about the existence of ham sandwiches as the centerpiece of the catastrophic picnic America is headed for.
The WHO and China. Politics seems to be involved. Who coulda’ known?
The WHO and China. Politics seems to be involved. Who coulda’ known?
because I’m a little angry that I didn’t become a dreaded “Socialist”, whatever that is,
Socialists: the PRC, Vietnam, the USSR, the Warsaw Pact, N Korea, Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela and other peace-loving gardens spots that don’t come to mind right now. I hope this helps.
Will I vote for Biden? Maybe.
because I’m a little angry that I didn’t become a dreaded “Socialist”, whatever that is,
Socialists: the PRC, Vietnam, the USSR, the Warsaw Pact, N Korea, Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela and other peace-loving gardens spots that don’t come to mind right now. I hope this helps.
Will I vote for Biden? Maybe.
Any distinction between socialists and communists? Serious question. I’ve read what I would characterize as the theoretical differences, but I’m still kind of fuzzy on where the fuzzy line is in practice. (Yes, both I and the line are fuzzy.) I don’t see communism having any real meaning if you only get there by no longer needing the state because everything’s worked out so well among the people.
No private property, maybe? No private industry or enterprise whatsoever?
(Apologies if this belongs elsewhere.)
Any distinction between socialists and communists? Serious question. I’ve read what I would characterize as the theoretical differences, but I’m still kind of fuzzy on where the fuzzy line is in practice. (Yes, both I and the line are fuzzy.) I don’t see communism having any real meaning if you only get there by no longer needing the state because everything’s worked out so well among the people.
No private property, maybe? No private industry or enterprise whatsoever?
(Apologies if this belongs elsewhere.)
I very highly recommend the wonderfully written book I’m reading at the moment by Sinclair McKay “The Fire and The Darkness –The Bombing of Dresden 1945” a irreplaceable addition to the corpus of World War II histories.
Its depictions of the on the ground events and the in the air events are perhaps the finest I’ve encountered.
A very, very young Freeman Dyson, fresh from a brief interlude at Cambridge before joining the war effort, and a dedicated pacifist, joined Britain’s Bomber Command’s Operational Research Section to look at their new god-awful, but perhaps necessary approach to fire storming German cities, with civilians now on the list of targets for total destruction.
He was presented with moral difficulties, to say the least, and this passage tracks the evolution of his thinking during his duty, and I’m quoting it to compare it word for word with the decades-long evolution of this once registered republican’s (me) moral thinking about what to do with the malignant trump republican conservative movement and its ruination of my country. Every day that passes, every press conference, every well laid plan to steal the election in November, see Wisconsin, during a fucking goddamned pandemic, reinforces my certainty:
“Since the beginning of the war I had been retreating step by step from one moral position to another, until at the end I had no moral position at all. At the beginning of the war I …. was morally opposed to all violence. After a year of war I retreated and said, ‘Unfortunately, nonviolent resistance against Hitler is impracticable, but I am still opposed to bombing.’ A few years later I said, ‘Unfortunately, it seems that bombing is necessary in order to win the war, and so I am will to go to work for Bomber Command, but I am still morally opposed to bombing cities indiscriminately.’ After I arrived at Bomber Command I said, “Unfortunately, it turns out that we are after all bombing cities indiscriminately, but this is morally justified as it helping to win the war.” A year later I said, “Unfortunately it seems that our bombing is not really helping to win the war, but at least I am morally justified in working to save the lives of the bomber crews.”
He concluded: “in the last spring of the war I could no longer find any excuses.”
I very highly recommend the wonderfully written book I’m reading at the moment by Sinclair McKay “The Fire and The Darkness –The Bombing of Dresden 1945” a irreplaceable addition to the corpus of World War II histories.
Its depictions of the on the ground events and the in the air events are perhaps the finest I’ve encountered.
A very, very young Freeman Dyson, fresh from a brief interlude at Cambridge before joining the war effort, and a dedicated pacifist, joined Britain’s Bomber Command’s Operational Research Section to look at their new god-awful, but perhaps necessary approach to fire storming German cities, with civilians now on the list of targets for total destruction.
He was presented with moral difficulties, to say the least, and this passage tracks the evolution of his thinking during his duty, and I’m quoting it to compare it word for word with the decades-long evolution of this once registered republican’s (me) moral thinking about what to do with the malignant trump republican conservative movement and its ruination of my country. Every day that passes, every press conference, every well laid plan to steal the election in November, see Wisconsin, during a fucking goddamned pandemic, reinforces my certainty:
“Since the beginning of the war I had been retreating step by step from one moral position to another, until at the end I had no moral position at all. At the beginning of the war I …. was morally opposed to all violence. After a year of war I retreated and said, ‘Unfortunately, nonviolent resistance against Hitler is impracticable, but I am still opposed to bombing.’ A few years later I said, ‘Unfortunately, it seems that bombing is necessary in order to win the war, and so I am will to go to work for Bomber Command, but I am still morally opposed to bombing cities indiscriminately.’ After I arrived at Bomber Command I said, “Unfortunately, it turns out that we are after all bombing cities indiscriminately, but this is morally justified as it helping to win the war.” A year later I said, “Unfortunately it seems that our bombing is not really helping to win the war, but at least I am morally justified in working to save the lives of the bomber crews.”
He concluded: “in the last spring of the war I could no longer find any excuses.”
Socialists: also Sweden, Denmark, etc.
“Socialism” — IMMV
Socialists: also Sweden, Denmark, etc.
“Socialism” — IMMV
From today’s Times (of London), by my conservative friends’ favourite commentator, for anyone who might be interested:
Are we witnessing end of the American era?
The coronavirus emergency has exposed how far the United States is retreating from its leadership of the free world
Daniel Finkelstein
Wednesday April 08 2020, 12.01am, The Times
It is an era that has lasted for the adult life of every person in this country. An era that began with the end of the Second World War, a war that had seen the world’s great nations bankrupted. In some cases morally, in some politically, in most economically. In some cases, all three.
It is an era that was defined by the decision of President Truman, urged on by his appointees George Marshall and Dean Acheson, to come to the aid of Europe financially and to make its security a priority. An era that was marked by the cultural dominance of Hollywood and rock ’n’ roll, by the great prosperity of western capitalism, and by the nuclear stand-off with the Soviet Union that preceded communism’s intellectual and political collapse.
And now it’s time to wonder, is this era over? Does the coronavirus catastrophe mark the end of Pax Americana?
Since Truman first earned the title, the American president has been “the leader of the free world”. The term is used so frequently, and so casually, as almost to suggest it is an official title. Just as Victoria was not only Queen but Empress of India.
Yet being the leader of the free world is not an office. It’s a role. Truman created it by his actions. And his successors accepted the responsibilities. Sometimes they lost their way, sometimes they were too strong, sometimes too weak, but always they accepted the American postwar duty, a self-imposed duty, to show a way forward, to rally liberal democracies, to support the opinion and actions of the free nations.
The case does not need to be overstated. No president has ever simply ignored American domestic opinion or placed being leader of the free world above being leader of his own nation. And free nations have only occasionally made the error of assuming American interests and opinions were the same as their own.
Yet in most of the struggles and crises since 1945, the world has felt able to rely on the United States to give a lead, to show a way forward. Until now.
Coronavirus respects nobody and stops at no borders. It doesn’t speak a language or inhabit a country. Covid-19 is the ultimate international crisis. Yet an extraordinary feature of this crisis has been how national the response has been.
We are facing something that is a threat to the health of everyone, in rich countries and poor, and that threatens to crash the global economy, perhaps destroying years, even decades of economic progress. But where is the international leadership to combat it?
This is a moment for a leader of the free world, yet there is no leader of the free world. Donald Trump is incapable even of adequately leading the US response, let alone guiding or inspiring international institutions. In any case, he has no interest in doing so. And were he to have such an interest, who would follow him as he flails around, lashing out in his incoherent press conferences?
Mr Trump is merely the embodiment of an American attitude that has been growing for some time. And is, in many ways, understandable. As the Second World War and even the Cold War retreats into history, many Americans have grown weary of their international responsibilities. They think international leadership costs money, time, energy and American lives, yet they feel (perhaps wrongly) that it doesn’t put food on American tables or keep Americans safe. To the contrary perhaps.
Trump may go next year or in 2025, but will this feeling ever go?
Of course Pax Americana is the result of more than the international leadership of presidents. It is also about the example of America. Even when that country was struggling with racial segregation and discrimination it has seemed to many an example to the world of what was possible.
A land of opportunity, mobility and prosperity. A constitutional democracy that protected free speech and liberty of the citizen. A nation always one step ahead, putting the first man on the moon, developing new technology and tomorrow’s corporate giants. A laboratory of democracy where states competed to test new ideas and policies. A place where class and inheritance counted for less than talent and endeavour.
Yet today this model seems frayed and coronavirus has shone a light on another America. One where the federal government seems too weak to act and where science has to compete with superstition in the public sphere. A place where there might be free speech but it is hard to know if one can trust what one hears. A place where the will to support the economy is not as great as the economic problems demand.
America dominated the postwar era because it came out of the Second World War stronger than any nation. It was richer, more powerful, more sure of itself. Without that self-assurance and wealth there would have been no Pax Americana.
But there is a chance that at the end of the coronavirus crisis, America will be among the nations worst hit, and will struggle to overcome the damage to its health and to its economy.
Will it still be in a position to lead the free world? And if it isn’t, who is? Western Europe is still financially and militarily dependent on the United States for its defence and security. Many of the world’s great industrial and scientific enterprises are American ones. If they have lost the will and capacity to lead, nobody else seems ready to do so.
Which brings us to China. It may be brazen enough and big enough to take up the role. If its economic and military clout continue to grow, and America leaves a vacuum, it would be a disaster for us. China could be a leader, but it would not be a leader of a free world.
This may be too pessimistic. Perhaps the crisis will renew America’s sense of its unique role and it will once again provide leadership that can be respected and accepted. But we can’t take that for granted.
So our task when this is over will be to join with other nations to create world structures that are not so dependent on the United States, to show a willingness to finance them and to help lead them. To accept a shared responsibility that we have left to the United States alone for too long.
If we do not, the danger is that we may not just see the end of Pax Americana, but of Pax itself.
From today’s Times (of London), by my conservative friends’ favourite commentator, for anyone who might be interested:
Are we witnessing end of the American era?
The coronavirus emergency has exposed how far the United States is retreating from its leadership of the free world
Daniel Finkelstein
Wednesday April 08 2020, 12.01am, The Times
It is an era that has lasted for the adult life of every person in this country. An era that began with the end of the Second World War, a war that had seen the world’s great nations bankrupted. In some cases morally, in some politically, in most economically. In some cases, all three.
It is an era that was defined by the decision of President Truman, urged on by his appointees George Marshall and Dean Acheson, to come to the aid of Europe financially and to make its security a priority. An era that was marked by the cultural dominance of Hollywood and rock ’n’ roll, by the great prosperity of western capitalism, and by the nuclear stand-off with the Soviet Union that preceded communism’s intellectual and political collapse.
And now it’s time to wonder, is this era over? Does the coronavirus catastrophe mark the end of Pax Americana?
Since Truman first earned the title, the American president has been “the leader of the free world”. The term is used so frequently, and so casually, as almost to suggest it is an official title. Just as Victoria was not only Queen but Empress of India.
Yet being the leader of the free world is not an office. It’s a role. Truman created it by his actions. And his successors accepted the responsibilities. Sometimes they lost their way, sometimes they were too strong, sometimes too weak, but always they accepted the American postwar duty, a self-imposed duty, to show a way forward, to rally liberal democracies, to support the opinion and actions of the free nations.
The case does not need to be overstated. No president has ever simply ignored American domestic opinion or placed being leader of the free world above being leader of his own nation. And free nations have only occasionally made the error of assuming American interests and opinions were the same as their own.
Yet in most of the struggles and crises since 1945, the world has felt able to rely on the United States to give a lead, to show a way forward. Until now.
Coronavirus respects nobody and stops at no borders. It doesn’t speak a language or inhabit a country. Covid-19 is the ultimate international crisis. Yet an extraordinary feature of this crisis has been how national the response has been.
We are facing something that is a threat to the health of everyone, in rich countries and poor, and that threatens to crash the global economy, perhaps destroying years, even decades of economic progress. But where is the international leadership to combat it?
This is a moment for a leader of the free world, yet there is no leader of the free world. Donald Trump is incapable even of adequately leading the US response, let alone guiding or inspiring international institutions. In any case, he has no interest in doing so. And were he to have such an interest, who would follow him as he flails around, lashing out in his incoherent press conferences?
Mr Trump is merely the embodiment of an American attitude that has been growing for some time. And is, in many ways, understandable. As the Second World War and even the Cold War retreats into history, many Americans have grown weary of their international responsibilities. They think international leadership costs money, time, energy and American lives, yet they feel (perhaps wrongly) that it doesn’t put food on American tables or keep Americans safe. To the contrary perhaps.
Trump may go next year or in 2025, but will this feeling ever go?
Of course Pax Americana is the result of more than the international leadership of presidents. It is also about the example of America. Even when that country was struggling with racial segregation and discrimination it has seemed to many an example to the world of what was possible.
A land of opportunity, mobility and prosperity. A constitutional democracy that protected free speech and liberty of the citizen. A nation always one step ahead, putting the first man on the moon, developing new technology and tomorrow’s corporate giants. A laboratory of democracy where states competed to test new ideas and policies. A place where class and inheritance counted for less than talent and endeavour.
Yet today this model seems frayed and coronavirus has shone a light on another America. One where the federal government seems too weak to act and where science has to compete with superstition in the public sphere. A place where there might be free speech but it is hard to know if one can trust what one hears. A place where the will to support the economy is not as great as the economic problems demand.
America dominated the postwar era because it came out of the Second World War stronger than any nation. It was richer, more powerful, more sure of itself. Without that self-assurance and wealth there would have been no Pax Americana.
But there is a chance that at the end of the coronavirus crisis, America will be among the nations worst hit, and will struggle to overcome the damage to its health and to its economy.
Will it still be in a position to lead the free world? And if it isn’t, who is? Western Europe is still financially and militarily dependent on the United States for its defence and security. Many of the world’s great industrial and scientific enterprises are American ones. If they have lost the will and capacity to lead, nobody else seems ready to do so.
Which brings us to China. It may be brazen enough and big enough to take up the role. If its economic and military clout continue to grow, and America leaves a vacuum, it would be a disaster for us. China could be a leader, but it would not be a leader of a free world.
This may be too pessimistic. Perhaps the crisis will renew America’s sense of its unique role and it will once again provide leadership that can be respected and accepted. But we can’t take that for granted.
So our task when this is over will be to join with other nations to create world structures that are not so dependent on the United States, to show a willingness to finance them and to help lead them. To accept a shared responsibility that we have left to the United States alone for too long.
If we do not, the danger is that we may not just see the end of Pax Americana, but of Pax itself.
The countries McKinney names as socialist have an additional helping of either totalitarianism, authoritarianism, or corruption (or a combination). None have a tradition of democracy.
I would much rather have a democratic government that leans socialist than an totalitarian, authoritarian, or corrupt government of any flavor. Sadly, we’ve recently adopted an authoritarian, corrupt government that exists to cater to some specific oligarchs without bothering with economic philosophy. Not much in it for anyone else but those on the take.
The countries McKinney names as socialist have an additional helping of either totalitarianism, authoritarianism, or corruption (or a combination). None have a tradition of democracy.
I would much rather have a democratic government that leans socialist than an totalitarian, authoritarian, or corrupt government of any flavor. Sadly, we’ve recently adopted an authoritarian, corrupt government that exists to cater to some specific oligarchs without bothering with economic philosophy. Not much in it for anyone else but those on the take.
hooray! we’re weaker and more isolated!
Make America Go it Alone!
hooray! we’re weaker and more isolated!
Make America Go it Alone!
McKinney’s list of “socialist … garden spots” is of course ridiculous. North Korea, a hereditary monarchy by any sane definition, is “socialist”?? No wonder “socialist” is McKinney’s all-purpose insult, its definition inside McKinney’s head being so nebulous.
McKinney speaks as if the US turning into a monarchist “garden spot”, while embarrassing, would be preferable to him over a US with some sort of national health insurance system operated by a democratically elected federal government.
McKinney will not vote for Biden. He will find some reason not to. “Socialist tendencies” will do in a pinch.
–TP
McKinney’s list of “socialist … garden spots” is of course ridiculous. North Korea, a hereditary monarchy by any sane definition, is “socialist”?? No wonder “socialist” is McKinney’s all-purpose insult, its definition inside McKinney’s head being so nebulous.
McKinney speaks as if the US turning into a monarchist “garden spot”, while embarrassing, would be preferable to him over a US with some sort of national health insurance system operated by a democratically elected federal government.
McKinney will not vote for Biden. He will find some reason not to. “Socialist tendencies” will do in a pinch.
–TP
Any distinction between socialists and communists? Serious question. I’ve read what I would characterize as the theoretical differences, but I’m still kind of fuzzy on where the fuzzy line is in practice. (Yes, both I and the line are fuzzy.)
There is no consensus on the distinction, if there is a distinction–other than people who continue–against all reason and experience–to embrace socialism claim that they would never follow the soviet or PRC model; rather, there is some previously unknown form of socialism in which all of us capitalists voluntarily agree to give up our private sector and live under the benign hand of a single, all-deciding government.
The better label may be Marxism, since you will never run out of hair-splitters who can explain why Trotsky was “this way” and Lenin was “that way”, as if it matters two shits in real life.
The Scandinavian experiment with socialism-very-lite flopped, even though Bernie et al seem to think that is what socialism is. At one point Sweden’s tax rates were confiscatory and that didn’t work out. FWIW, I was in Stockholm for a 2 day visit with clients and we chatted over drinks about the difference between Sweden’s welfare model and the US model. Sweden is much smaller and much more homogeneous than most other countries (true for all of the Scandinavian countries). My impression is that Swedes have–generally–a greater desire and willingness to assure a social minimum on medical care, housing and food. Which is great if everyone agrees and there is the money to do it.
Sweden also has a draft. Here is the motto of the Swedish Military: “We defend Sweden and Swedish interests, our freedom and our right to live the way we choose.” As recent as 2018, every Swedish household received a pamphlet detailing a citizen’s obligations in a time of war, including this bit of exhortation, “Every statement that the resistance has ceased is false. Resistance shall be made all the time and in every situation. It depends on You – Your efforts, Your determination, Your will to survive.”
So, how much of that model do modern progressives want to buy into?
“Since the beginning of the war I had been retreating step by step from one moral position to another, until at the end I had no moral position at all. At the beginning of the war I …. was morally opposed to all violence. After a year of war I retreated and said, ‘Unfortunately, nonviolent resistance against Hitler is impracticable, but I am still opposed to bombing.’ A few years later I said, ‘Unfortunately, it seems that bombing is necessary in order to win the war, and so I am will to go to work for Bomber Command, but I am still morally opposed to bombing cities indiscriminately.’ After I arrived at Bomber Command I said, “Unfortunately, it turns out that we are after all bombing cities indiscriminately, but this is morally justified as it helping to win the war.” A year later I said, “Unfortunately it seems that our bombing is not really helping to win the war, but at least I am morally justified in working to save the lives of the bomber crews.”
He concluded: “in the last spring of the war I could no longer find any excuses.”
I can help him with his problem: Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Treblinka, Chlemno, Dauchau, to name a few.
War sucks. Losing to dictators sucks even worse. Gulags, gas chambers, re-education centers, etc. They all suck. Better to fight back and even better to win.
Any distinction between socialists and communists? Serious question. I’ve read what I would characterize as the theoretical differences, but I’m still kind of fuzzy on where the fuzzy line is in practice. (Yes, both I and the line are fuzzy.)
There is no consensus on the distinction, if there is a distinction–other than people who continue–against all reason and experience–to embrace socialism claim that they would never follow the soviet or PRC model; rather, there is some previously unknown form of socialism in which all of us capitalists voluntarily agree to give up our private sector and live under the benign hand of a single, all-deciding government.
The better label may be Marxism, since you will never run out of hair-splitters who can explain why Trotsky was “this way” and Lenin was “that way”, as if it matters two shits in real life.
The Scandinavian experiment with socialism-very-lite flopped, even though Bernie et al seem to think that is what socialism is. At one point Sweden’s tax rates were confiscatory and that didn’t work out. FWIW, I was in Stockholm for a 2 day visit with clients and we chatted over drinks about the difference between Sweden’s welfare model and the US model. Sweden is much smaller and much more homogeneous than most other countries (true for all of the Scandinavian countries). My impression is that Swedes have–generally–a greater desire and willingness to assure a social minimum on medical care, housing and food. Which is great if everyone agrees and there is the money to do it.
Sweden also has a draft. Here is the motto of the Swedish Military: “We defend Sweden and Swedish interests, our freedom and our right to live the way we choose.” As recent as 2018, every Swedish household received a pamphlet detailing a citizen’s obligations in a time of war, including this bit of exhortation, “Every statement that the resistance has ceased is false. Resistance shall be made all the time and in every situation. It depends on You – Your efforts, Your determination, Your will to survive.”
So, how much of that model do modern progressives want to buy into?
“Since the beginning of the war I had been retreating step by step from one moral position to another, until at the end I had no moral position at all. At the beginning of the war I …. was morally opposed to all violence. After a year of war I retreated and said, ‘Unfortunately, nonviolent resistance against Hitler is impracticable, but I am still opposed to bombing.’ A few years later I said, ‘Unfortunately, it seems that bombing is necessary in order to win the war, and so I am will to go to work for Bomber Command, but I am still morally opposed to bombing cities indiscriminately.’ After I arrived at Bomber Command I said, “Unfortunately, it turns out that we are after all bombing cities indiscriminately, but this is morally justified as it helping to win the war.” A year later I said, “Unfortunately it seems that our bombing is not really helping to win the war, but at least I am morally justified in working to save the lives of the bomber crews.”
He concluded: “in the last spring of the war I could no longer find any excuses.”
I can help him with his problem: Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Treblinka, Chlemno, Dauchau, to name a few.
War sucks. Losing to dictators sucks even worse. Gulags, gas chambers, re-education centers, etc. They all suck. Better to fight back and even better to win.
Which brings us to China. It may be brazen enough and big enough to take up the role. If its economic and military clout continue to grow, and America leaves a vacuum, it would be a disaster for us. China could be a leader, but it would not be a leader of a free world.
It is big enough and it is brazen enough, if we–the US–continues in our long-standing, bipartisan pattern of unilateral disarmament, it could pull it off as a matter of hegemony, but probably not outright occupation. For a time. Empires tend to crumble under their own weight.
The countries McKinney names as socialist have an additional helping of either totalitarianism, authoritarianism, or corruption (or a combination). None have a tradition of democracy.
Do you think that is a coincidence? Really? That every socialist country is also a dicatorship? How do you get people to give up what they have and follow gov’t direction without having a dictatorship?
McKinney’s list of “socialist … garden spots” is of course ridiculous. North Korea, a hereditary monarchy by any sane definition, is “socialist”?? No wonder “socialist” is McKinney’s all-purpose insult, its definition inside McKinney’s head being so nebulous.
Feel free to give me some examples of successful socialism. Seriously, I’d like to see you put up something besides a snotty dismissal.
For people who pay attention, N Korea may have morphed into a family run crime syndicate but its formation and fundamental outline is right out of the PRC/Soviet playbook. Classic socialism in practice.
Which brings us to China. It may be brazen enough and big enough to take up the role. If its economic and military clout continue to grow, and America leaves a vacuum, it would be a disaster for us. China could be a leader, but it would not be a leader of a free world.
It is big enough and it is brazen enough, if we–the US–continues in our long-standing, bipartisan pattern of unilateral disarmament, it could pull it off as a matter of hegemony, but probably not outright occupation. For a time. Empires tend to crumble under their own weight.
The countries McKinney names as socialist have an additional helping of either totalitarianism, authoritarianism, or corruption (or a combination). None have a tradition of democracy.
Do you think that is a coincidence? Really? That every socialist country is also a dicatorship? How do you get people to give up what they have and follow gov’t direction without having a dictatorship?
McKinney’s list of “socialist … garden spots” is of course ridiculous. North Korea, a hereditary monarchy by any sane definition, is “socialist”?? No wonder “socialist” is McKinney’s all-purpose insult, its definition inside McKinney’s head being so nebulous.
Feel free to give me some examples of successful socialism. Seriously, I’d like to see you put up something besides a snotty dismissal.
For people who pay attention, N Korea may have morphed into a family run crime syndicate but its formation and fundamental outline is right out of the PRC/Soviet playbook. Classic socialism in practice.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
How do you get people to give up what they have and follow gov’t direction without having a dictatorship?
you pay your taxes and obey traffic signs, right?
How do you get people to give up what they have and follow gov’t direction without having a dictatorship?
you pay your taxes and obey traffic signs, right?
Do you think that is a coincidence? Really? That every socialist country is also a dicatorship?
Every “socialist” country is also a dictatorship only if you either a) include being a dictatorship in the definition (which would probably let the US out), or b) come up with a way to exclude Sweden and Denmark (which otherwise seem to have all the features that McKinney objects to as “socialist”).
Care to share which?
Do you think that is a coincidence? Really? That every socialist country is also a dicatorship?
Every “socialist” country is also a dictatorship only if you either a) include being a dictatorship in the definition (which would probably let the US out), or b) come up with a way to exclude Sweden and Denmark (which otherwise seem to have all the features that McKinney objects to as “socialist”).
Care to share which?
MCKT, you used the word Progressive in the same sentence as Socialist up thread.
Is North Korea Progressive? Is Daniel Ortega your vision of Adlai Stevenson? Was Bill Bradley a budding Fidel Castro?
My granpappy used to call Martin Luther King a Commie.
Bernie Sanders is pro-gun.
Biden is the candidate. All Socialists, whatever and wherever they are, are vanquished, for all practical purposes in this election cycle, should it be permitted to happen, unless republicans in red states are going to set up AR-15 semiautomatic crossfire at the polls for liberals to dodge trying to vote while of course, all bullet-proofed vests have mysteriously disappeared from the “market”, having been dispersed to Trump voters.
A simple thank you would be sufficient.
As an aside, a more accurate description of the PRC would be Bureaucratic State Capitalism or, if you will, clients of conservative American businessmen seeking to escape regulation, taxes, and a living wage for their laborers.
Russia is a thug gangster state roughly akin to Sicily early in the 20th Century. Hop over to the Trump-butt-kissing American Conservative and let Buchanan/Merry/Dreher and company turn you on to Putin and his in-the-hip-pocket Russian Orthodox Church, and while you are there, introduce yourself to their deep affection for the Christian fascist totalitarian, read republican, Victor Orban of Hungary, whose government is due to be violently and savagely overthrown, but won’t, because his iron hand has extinguished all opposition.
He is a role model for Trump. You don’t think so?
McKinney is a reputable conservative, prone to changing his bedrock views, as I’ve noted here in the past, see gay marriage, given sufficient evidence. He’s known, I hear tell, for the Mck-Tini, which if I remember correctly, having lost consciousness along about the fourth sip, for having both vodka and gin in it, but I kid.
What’s not to like?
His rockribbed conservative friends consider him a liberal, so I do hope he is advising them from his precisely pinpointed unbiased position directly in the exact middle of the Overton Window that despising Biden and liberals does not make Trump, his cult and the corruption and sycophancy that now defines our executive branch the obvious default position.
Unless we do in fact live in a binary world, a binary country, a binary culture.
Further, be advised that electing not to vote in November, or voting for a third party candidate, instead of Joe Biden, will be counted as a vote FOR Donald Trump and the Republican Party and his crony corrupt sycophants (who are just now filling privately owned anonymous warehouses with tons of medical equipment stolen from the Federal government, American hospitals, and cities and states across the country who no longer possess anything resembling states’ effing rights, for sale to the highest bidder) in God’s ledger, which I am in possession of.
Texas might see some of the medical equipment if they pay up with cash and deliver the trump vote, now being whipped into shape. Exception will be made for oldsters who Lieutenant Governor Patrick, known far and wide even to the barely sentient, believes should snuff themselves out for DOW 30,000.
He coughs in their direction and puts HIS mask back on, which he changes daily, unlike nurses, grocery stores employees, postal workers, and public transport workers who are denied the luxury, like goddamned fucking always in America, where Socialism, like everything, is distributed by the trickle down method.
Fuckers.
More in a bit, but more, how you say, constructive?
Then I’ll STFU except for a brief recap later of Trump’s briefing this evening, which I’m providing as a public service in case people didn’t quite hear him right the first time.
MCKT, you used the word Progressive in the same sentence as Socialist up thread.
Is North Korea Progressive? Is Daniel Ortega your vision of Adlai Stevenson? Was Bill Bradley a budding Fidel Castro?
My granpappy used to call Martin Luther King a Commie.
Bernie Sanders is pro-gun.
Biden is the candidate. All Socialists, whatever and wherever they are, are vanquished, for all practical purposes in this election cycle, should it be permitted to happen, unless republicans in red states are going to set up AR-15 semiautomatic crossfire at the polls for liberals to dodge trying to vote while of course, all bullet-proofed vests have mysteriously disappeared from the “market”, having been dispersed to Trump voters.
A simple thank you would be sufficient.
As an aside, a more accurate description of the PRC would be Bureaucratic State Capitalism or, if you will, clients of conservative American businessmen seeking to escape regulation, taxes, and a living wage for their laborers.
Russia is a thug gangster state roughly akin to Sicily early in the 20th Century. Hop over to the Trump-butt-kissing American Conservative and let Buchanan/Merry/Dreher and company turn you on to Putin and his in-the-hip-pocket Russian Orthodox Church, and while you are there, introduce yourself to their deep affection for the Christian fascist totalitarian, read republican, Victor Orban of Hungary, whose government is due to be violently and savagely overthrown, but won’t, because his iron hand has extinguished all opposition.
He is a role model for Trump. You don’t think so?
McKinney is a reputable conservative, prone to changing his bedrock views, as I’ve noted here in the past, see gay marriage, given sufficient evidence. He’s known, I hear tell, for the Mck-Tini, which if I remember correctly, having lost consciousness along about the fourth sip, for having both vodka and gin in it, but I kid.
What’s not to like?
His rockribbed conservative friends consider him a liberal, so I do hope he is advising them from his precisely pinpointed unbiased position directly in the exact middle of the Overton Window that despising Biden and liberals does not make Trump, his cult and the corruption and sycophancy that now defines our executive branch the obvious default position.
Unless we do in fact live in a binary world, a binary country, a binary culture.
Further, be advised that electing not to vote in November, or voting for a third party candidate, instead of Joe Biden, will be counted as a vote FOR Donald Trump and the Republican Party and his crony corrupt sycophants (who are just now filling privately owned anonymous warehouses with tons of medical equipment stolen from the Federal government, American hospitals, and cities and states across the country who no longer possess anything resembling states’ effing rights, for sale to the highest bidder) in God’s ledger, which I am in possession of.
Texas might see some of the medical equipment if they pay up with cash and deliver the trump vote, now being whipped into shape. Exception will be made for oldsters who Lieutenant Governor Patrick, known far and wide even to the barely sentient, believes should snuff themselves out for DOW 30,000.
He coughs in their direction and puts HIS mask back on, which he changes daily, unlike nurses, grocery stores employees, postal workers, and public transport workers who are denied the luxury, like goddamned fucking always in America, where Socialism, like everything, is distributed by the trickle down method.
Fuckers.
More in a bit, but more, how you say, constructive?
Then I’ll STFU except for a brief recap later of Trump’s briefing this evening, which I’m providing as a public service in case people didn’t quite hear him right the first time.
“How do you get people to give up what they have and follow gov’t direction without having a dictatorship?”
Obviously, you can’t:
“How do you get people to give up what they have and follow gov’t direction without having a dictatorship?”
I’m not a socialist dictator, so my method of getting republicans and conservatives to not infect me with the Covid-19 on purpose is to borrow a page from the conservative playbook … arm a militia and protect myself from their fatal breath with deadly self-defense and force.
It just occurred to me that one way to get myself to shut up here is to stop reading every blessed comment in every thread.
“How do you get people to give up what they have and follow gov’t direction without having a dictatorship?”
Obviously, you can’t:
“How do you get people to give up what they have and follow gov’t direction without having a dictatorship?”
I’m not a socialist dictator, so my method of getting republicans and conservatives to not infect me with the Covid-19 on purpose is to borrow a page from the conservative playbook … arm a militia and protect myself from their fatal breath with deadly self-defense and force.
It just occurred to me that one way to get myself to shut up here is to stop reading every blessed comment in every thread.
Insert this link after “you can’t”.
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/04/study-says-republicans-arent-taking-social-distancing-seriously/
Insert this link after “you can’t”.
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/04/study-says-republicans-arent-taking-social-distancing-seriously/
How do you get people to give up what they have and follow gov’t direction without having a dictatorship?
Radical notion: persuasion. Sure, it’s more work than just saying “Do what we say or get shot” — regardless of whether nominally left or right wing. But more pleasant to live under.
How do you get people to give up what they have and follow gov’t direction without having a dictatorship?
Radical notion: persuasion. Sure, it’s more work than just saying “Do what we say or get shot” — regardless of whether nominally left or right wing. But more pleasant to live under.
The Scandinavian experiment with socialism-very-lite flopped
IMO too much of this discussion is focused on trying to pin down definitions of ‘socialism’ or ‘communism’ or ‘capitalism’ or whatever.
In terms of economic development and political maturity, the US is most akin to the OECD nations. Of which we are one. Basically this is North America, western Europe plus Greece and Turkey, Japan and South Korea, Australia and New Zealand, and Columbia and Chile.
Virtually all of these countries have mixed economies – fundamentally market-based, financed largely through private capital, but with some level of public regulation and “safety net” welfare programs.
There is no public policy proposal under serious consideration in this country that falls outside of that profile.
The kinds of things that *are* under discussion basically amount to moving the needle some incremental amount toward the level of regulation and social programs that are more typical of western and northern Europe. And, there are very credible reasons for all of that.
It may in fact be easier to implement the kinds of things that are typical in the EU if you have a smaller population than we have here, mostly because it’s likely easier to achieve something closer to consensus in a smaller and (presumably) homogenous population.
That said, countries like France and Germany have pretty large and diverse populations, and in Germany’s case with a fairly federalized political structure.
By and large, what “progressives” are calling for here in the US are the expansion of programs that provide some insulation from the effects of the various kinds of disruption and plain bad luck that everyone is vulnerable to.
Sweden and the DDR are not steps on the way to Pol Pot’s Cambodia.
Will I vote for Biden? Maybe.
I’m taking that as a win.
The Scandinavian experiment with socialism-very-lite flopped
IMO too much of this discussion is focused on trying to pin down definitions of ‘socialism’ or ‘communism’ or ‘capitalism’ or whatever.
In terms of economic development and political maturity, the US is most akin to the OECD nations. Of which we are one. Basically this is North America, western Europe plus Greece and Turkey, Japan and South Korea, Australia and New Zealand, and Columbia and Chile.
Virtually all of these countries have mixed economies – fundamentally market-based, financed largely through private capital, but with some level of public regulation and “safety net” welfare programs.
There is no public policy proposal under serious consideration in this country that falls outside of that profile.
The kinds of things that *are* under discussion basically amount to moving the needle some incremental amount toward the level of regulation and social programs that are more typical of western and northern Europe. And, there are very credible reasons for all of that.
It may in fact be easier to implement the kinds of things that are typical in the EU if you have a smaller population than we have here, mostly because it’s likely easier to achieve something closer to consensus in a smaller and (presumably) homogenous population.
That said, countries like France and Germany have pretty large and diverse populations, and in Germany’s case with a fairly federalized political structure.
By and large, what “progressives” are calling for here in the US are the expansion of programs that provide some insulation from the effects of the various kinds of disruption and plain bad luck that everyone is vulnerable to.
Sweden and the DDR are not steps on the way to Pol Pot’s Cambodia.
Will I vote for Biden? Maybe.
I’m taking that as a win.
I am prepared to vote for Biden if the VP is someone I could accept as President. If he picked Klobuchar I would vote for them.
I am prepared to vote for Biden if the VP is someone I could accept as President. If he picked Klobuchar I would vote for them.
Persuasion. Yeah, the EVIL ones are working on it.
https://digbysblog.net/2020/04/good-lord-the-hoax-thing-is-back/
The fact is, because testing for the virus is spotty, the count is vastly under reported and …….. ah, fuck off, what’s the use?
My biochemist son, one of them highfalutin doctorate know it all elites told me yesterday while I was hiking with with him (yeah we social distanced, ten feet at all times, separate cars, not being republican assholes, sure not all are assholes, but not all snakes are poisonous neither) told me that Italian epidemiologists believe 20% of their 60 million population (that’s roughly 15 million humans; only 700,000 give or take have been formally diagnosed via testing, if my numbers are at all close) of their beleaguered country have been infected by Covid-19.
They estimate, AND EXPECT, the infected count to reach a 40% infection rate in the entire population, roughly 24 million, at which point “herd immunity”* may kick in and they can begin thinking about opening the country up.
See, I keep talking into the harsh transparent wind of conservative republican American stupidity, no matter that none of them is listening, let alone forced to listen by non-existent socialists.
*I love it when Catholics refer to their “flock” as a “herd”. I guess when are shorn they are sheep, when they drop dead, they are cattle.
All too human.
“Will I vote for Biden? Maybe.
I’m taking that as a win.”
Me too, but also McTX is showing us a little coy leg, like an ingenue at a casting call.
Persuasion. Yeah, the EVIL ones are working on it.
https://digbysblog.net/2020/04/good-lord-the-hoax-thing-is-back/
The fact is, because testing for the virus is spotty, the count is vastly under reported and …….. ah, fuck off, what’s the use?
My biochemist son, one of them highfalutin doctorate know it all elites told me yesterday while I was hiking with with him (yeah we social distanced, ten feet at all times, separate cars, not being republican assholes, sure not all are assholes, but not all snakes are poisonous neither) told me that Italian epidemiologists believe 20% of their 60 million population (that’s roughly 15 million humans; only 700,000 give or take have been formally diagnosed via testing, if my numbers are at all close) of their beleaguered country have been infected by Covid-19.
They estimate, AND EXPECT, the infected count to reach a 40% infection rate in the entire population, roughly 24 million, at which point “herd immunity”* may kick in and they can begin thinking about opening the country up.
See, I keep talking into the harsh transparent wind of conservative republican American stupidity, no matter that none of them is listening, let alone forced to listen by non-existent socialists.
*I love it when Catholics refer to their “flock” as a “herd”. I guess when are shorn they are sheep, when they drop dead, they are cattle.
All too human.
“Will I vote for Biden? Maybe.
I’m taking that as a win.”
Me too, but also McTX is showing us a little coy leg, like an ingenue at a casting call.
20% of 60 million is 12 million in Italy, not 15 million.
Fauci, I’m not.
So relax, discard your masks, kiss each other on the lips, share an ice cream cone, and fer Gawd sakes, stop vaccinating your kids like the socialists you pretend not to be.
20% of 60 million is 12 million in Italy, not 15 million.
Fauci, I’m not.
So relax, discard your masks, kiss each other on the lips, share an ice cream cone, and fer Gawd sakes, stop vaccinating your kids like the socialists you pretend not to be.
I voted for Hitler in 1932, because the alternatives just didn’t measure up.
I voted for Hitler in 1932, because the alternatives just didn’t measure up.
McTX is showing us a little coy leg
OK with me. Baby steps.
As long as the needle moves in the right direction, I’m good with it.
🙂
McTX is showing us a little coy leg
OK with me. Baby steps.
As long as the needle moves in the right direction, I’m good with it.
🙂
you pay your taxes and obey traffic signs, right?
And there is a price to be paid if I don’t. However, you are describing laws enacted in a democracy. By your logic, all government is socialist.
MCKT, you used the word Progressive in the same sentence as Socialist up thread.
Is North Korea Progressive? Is Daniel Ortega your vision of Adlai Stevenson? Was Bill Bradley a budding Fidel Castro?
I don’t believe I did. Nor do I think Stevenson or Bradley are the equivalent of modern progressives. They are classic liberals. What I will note–again–is that progressives seem to be at great pains to minimize socialism in practice as if there were some unicorn version of the dictatorship of the proletariat that everyone would be just fine with. There is not. Socialism is, by definition, a command economy. You get what the state gives you, you go where the state tells your to go and you do the work the state tells you to do. Owning your own business, owning your own home at the antithesis of socialism. If Tienanmen Square is any indication, or Hong Kong for that matter, the Chinese agree and for some of them, death is preferable to life under that dictatorship.
His rockribbed conservative friends consider him a liberal, so I do hope he is advising them from his precisely pinpointed unbiased position directly in the exact middle of the Overton Window that despising Biden and liberals does not make Trump, his cult and the corruption and sycophancy that now defines our executive branch the obvious default position.
All the time. Every day. With about the same level of success I have here.
Virtually all of these countries have mixed economies – fundamentally market-based, financed largely through private capital, but with some level of public regulation and “safety net” welfare programs.
There is no public policy proposal under serious consideration in this country that falls outside of that profile.
The Green New Deal, Medicare for All, Free College. Sorry, these are outliers and not consistent with a market economy in which gov’t levels the playing field.
It may in fact be easier to implement the kinds of things that are typical in the EU if you have a smaller population than we have here, mostly because it’s likely easier to achieve something closer to consensus in a smaller and (presumably) homogenous population.
That and they started most of their social programs 40-50 years ago, from a much less well-developed and advanced, for example, medical care environment. The level of coercion required to impose either the GND or MFA would be enormous. Free College is just a very, very bad idea.
you pay your taxes and obey traffic signs, right?
And there is a price to be paid if I don’t. However, you are describing laws enacted in a democracy. By your logic, all government is socialist.
MCKT, you used the word Progressive in the same sentence as Socialist up thread.
Is North Korea Progressive? Is Daniel Ortega your vision of Adlai Stevenson? Was Bill Bradley a budding Fidel Castro?
I don’t believe I did. Nor do I think Stevenson or Bradley are the equivalent of modern progressives. They are classic liberals. What I will note–again–is that progressives seem to be at great pains to minimize socialism in practice as if there were some unicorn version of the dictatorship of the proletariat that everyone would be just fine with. There is not. Socialism is, by definition, a command economy. You get what the state gives you, you go where the state tells your to go and you do the work the state tells you to do. Owning your own business, owning your own home at the antithesis of socialism. If Tienanmen Square is any indication, or Hong Kong for that matter, the Chinese agree and for some of them, death is preferable to life under that dictatorship.
His rockribbed conservative friends consider him a liberal, so I do hope he is advising them from his precisely pinpointed unbiased position directly in the exact middle of the Overton Window that despising Biden and liberals does not make Trump, his cult and the corruption and sycophancy that now defines our executive branch the obvious default position.
All the time. Every day. With about the same level of success I have here.
Virtually all of these countries have mixed economies – fundamentally market-based, financed largely through private capital, but with some level of public regulation and “safety net” welfare programs.
There is no public policy proposal under serious consideration in this country that falls outside of that profile.
The Green New Deal, Medicare for All, Free College. Sorry, these are outliers and not consistent with a market economy in which gov’t levels the playing field.
It may in fact be easier to implement the kinds of things that are typical in the EU if you have a smaller population than we have here, mostly because it’s likely easier to achieve something closer to consensus in a smaller and (presumably) homogenous population.
That and they started most of their social programs 40-50 years ago, from a much less well-developed and advanced, for example, medical care environment. The level of coercion required to impose either the GND or MFA would be enormous. Free College is just a very, very bad idea.
By your logic, all government is socialist.
no, McTx, it was your logic. that’s why i quoted it.
By your logic, all government is socialist.
no, McTx, it was your logic. that’s why i quoted it.
“I don’t believe I did.”
April 7 11:06 pm
“However, despising Trump, his cult and the corruption and sycophancy that now defines our executive branch does not make socialism or progressivism the obvious default position. We do not live in a binary world.”
No sweat. I would deny my quotes too, but that’s roughly several thousands of comments over the past 15 years I’d have to disavow.
“All the time. Every day. With about the same level of success I have here.”
We gave you Biden, the default ham sandwich.
What did your other half give you?
“I don’t believe I did.”
April 7 11:06 pm
“However, despising Trump, his cult and the corruption and sycophancy that now defines our executive branch does not make socialism or progressivism the obvious default position. We do not live in a binary world.”
No sweat. I would deny my quotes too, but that’s roughly several thousands of comments over the past 15 years I’d have to disavow.
“All the time. Every day. With about the same level of success I have here.”
We gave you Biden, the default ham sandwich.
What did your other half give you?
11:06 AM
See?
11:06 AM
See?
The Green New Deal, or parts of it, if enacted, will be enacted in a Democracy too.
Like Medicare.
Like Social Security.
However, given voting restrictions on liberals pursued by conservatives in some red states, if SS and Medicare are abolished by law, possibly even by the Supreme Court rather than by legislative action, those enactments won’t be occurring in a democracy.
The Green New Deal, or parts of it, if enacted, will be enacted in a Democracy too.
Like Medicare.
Like Social Security.
However, given voting restrictions on liberals pursued by conservatives in some red states, if SS and Medicare are abolished by law, possibly even by the Supreme Court rather than by legislative action, those enactments won’t be occurring in a democracy.
McKinney, I’m curious. How is “Free College” any different, philosophically, from free public education for K-12?
I’m not sure I think that’s the best place to put limited resources. But I’m not sure it isn’t either. And I am very aware that California’s super strong economy owes a lot to its decision, back circa 1960, to make college available at nominal cost** to any resident who wanted it. We ran it for a couple of decades, long enough for us Baby Boomers to get thru.
**Free for the first two years (at junior/community college). State 4-year college/university costing maybe $250 a year (call it $2,500 in current dollars, i.e. something you could easily earn in a summer at a half time, minimum wage job).
McKinney, I’m curious. How is “Free College” any different, philosophically, from free public education for K-12?
I’m not sure I think that’s the best place to put limited resources. But I’m not sure it isn’t either. And I am very aware that California’s super strong economy owes a lot to its decision, back circa 1960, to make college available at nominal cost** to any resident who wanted it. We ran it for a couple of decades, long enough for us Baby Boomers to get thru.
**Free for the first two years (at junior/community college). State 4-year college/university costing maybe $250 a year (call it $2,500 in current dollars, i.e. something you could easily earn in a summer at a half time, minimum wage job).
Setting aside any attempt to convince anyone to vote for Biden, I offer to McTX this article regarding a NEVER-TRUMPER conservative:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/03/30/the-trials-of-a-never-trump-republican
She’s not my cup of tea, though I agree with her that democrats in the battle with Trump are born losers afraid to go for the jugular, but Stalin wasn’t my cup of tea either when America partnered up with him to defeat Hitler, plus I wasn’t drinking tea as a pre-fetal human.
Look into her group called Checks and Balances and now something more recent she’s up to called Center Action Now.
If you can’t vote for Biden, make your own sandwich with white bread.
Setting aside any attempt to convince anyone to vote for Biden, I offer to McTX this article regarding a NEVER-TRUMPER conservative:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/03/30/the-trials-of-a-never-trump-republican
She’s not my cup of tea, though I agree with her that democrats in the battle with Trump are born losers afraid to go for the jugular, but Stalin wasn’t my cup of tea either when America partnered up with him to defeat Hitler, plus I wasn’t drinking tea as a pre-fetal human.
Look into her group called Checks and Balances and now something more recent she’s up to called Center Action Now.
If you can’t vote for Biden, make your own sandwich with white bread.
“However, despising Trump, his cult and the corruption and sycophancy that now defines our executive branch does not make socialism or progressivism the obvious default position. We do not live in a binary world
Dammit. I missed that.
We gave you Biden, the default ham sandwich.
What did your other half give you?
I’m not sure I can think of JB as a gift. I’m a Mitt Romney guy and have been for many years. That puts me in the same room as the Maytag Repairman.
McKinney, I’m curious. How is “Free College” any different, philosophically, from free public education for K-12?
Without giving this the full attention it deserves, K-12 gives everyone a base level of training/education. Past that, college is one of several options. Some people go to trade school (mechanics, welders, cosmeticians, barbers and so on). Some people study flower arranging or art. If you are going to pay for college (including art majors?), why not barbers? Why not pay for anything anyone wants to study, whether it makes them more employable or not.
That’s my quick and dirty answer.
“However, despising Trump, his cult and the corruption and sycophancy that now defines our executive branch does not make socialism or progressivism the obvious default position. We do not live in a binary world
Dammit. I missed that.
We gave you Biden, the default ham sandwich.
What did your other half give you?
I’m not sure I can think of JB as a gift. I’m a Mitt Romney guy and have been for many years. That puts me in the same room as the Maytag Repairman.
McKinney, I’m curious. How is “Free College” any different, philosophically, from free public education for K-12?
Without giving this the full attention it deserves, K-12 gives everyone a base level of training/education. Past that, college is one of several options. Some people go to trade school (mechanics, welders, cosmeticians, barbers and so on). Some people study flower arranging or art. If you are going to pay for college (including art majors?), why not barbers? Why not pay for anything anyone wants to study, whether it makes them more employable or not.
That’s my quick and dirty answer.
college is one of several options
Fair enough. So what you are saying is that it’s a “very, very bad idea” because it isn’t broad enough?
college is one of several options
Fair enough. So what you are saying is that it’s a “very, very bad idea” because it isn’t broad enough?
A man recently recovered from the brink of death with Covid-19, the scion of a distinguished family full of Conservative (non-socialist) politicians:
“I’m a student of history and of all the great things our country has done over the centuries the NHS is by far our finest hour.
“Our phenomenal health service is a towering achievement. ” He praised NHS staff, saying: “These really are the heroes of the moment. These are the Spitfire pilots of 1940.”
A man recently recovered from the brink of death with Covid-19, the scion of a distinguished family full of Conservative (non-socialist) politicians:
“I’m a student of history and of all the great things our country has done over the centuries the NHS is by far our finest hour.
“Our phenomenal health service is a towering achievement. ” He praised NHS staff, saying: “These really are the heroes of the moment. These are the Spitfire pilots of 1940.”
Some people go to trade school
FWIW, I’d be in favor of public support for trade schools as well as college. I’d be in favor of motivating more young people to learn trades as an alternative to going to college just because it’s “the next thing to do”.
For that matter, I’d be in favor of getting young people into apprenticeships of all sorts as part of the last 2 years of high school.
Which may put me in the same room as you and the Maytag guy, at least in some circles. Oh well.
Some people go to trade school
FWIW, I’d be in favor of public support for trade schools as well as college. I’d be in favor of motivating more young people to learn trades as an alternative to going to college just because it’s “the next thing to do”.
For that matter, I’d be in favor of getting young people into apprenticeships of all sorts as part of the last 2 years of high school.
Which may put me in the same room as you and the Maytag guy, at least in some circles. Oh well.
Related to GftNC’s comment, this
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/08/icu-doctor-covid-crisis-hospital
Caring for a severely unwell Covid+ patient is not what you think. I’m so close to them – dripping eye drops under their lids at night, so their unblinking eyes don’t dry out. I may never meet them but I hold vigil over traces of their breath for signs they need help. I change their bedsheets from under them.
I realize that the concept of helping someone in those situations might be foreign to McK, but at least the crisis will have him stfu about socialized medicine. Other kinds, no, but small victories, eh?
Unfortunately, this is what liberal schadenfreude looks like…cleaning up the mess that conservatives make every decade or so.
Related to GftNC’s comment, this
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/08/icu-doctor-covid-crisis-hospital
Caring for a severely unwell Covid+ patient is not what you think. I’m so close to them – dripping eye drops under their lids at night, so their unblinking eyes don’t dry out. I may never meet them but I hold vigil over traces of their breath for signs they need help. I change their bedsheets from under them.
I realize that the concept of helping someone in those situations might be foreign to McK, but at least the crisis will have him stfu about socialized medicine. Other kinds, no, but small victories, eh?
Unfortunately, this is what liberal schadenfreude looks like…cleaning up the mess that conservatives make every decade or so.
Well, the ‘socialist’ (lol) has dropped out of the presidential race today, so I guess we’re safe from the Gulags for now – whew!
Well, the ‘socialist’ (lol) has dropped out of the presidential race today, so I guess we’re safe from the Gulags for now – whew!
Which may put me in the same room as you and the Maytag guy
Bernie’s in that room as well:
Pass the College for All Act to provide at least $48 billion per year to eliminate tuition and fees at four-year public colleges and universities, tribal colleges, community colleges, trade schools, and apprenticeship programs
Which may put me in the same room as you and the Maytag guy
Bernie’s in that room as well:
Pass the College for All Act to provide at least $48 billion per year to eliminate tuition and fees at four-year public colleges and universities, tribal colleges, community colleges, trade schools, and apprenticeship programs
McTX: Feel free to give me some examples of successful socialism. Seriously, I’d like to see you put up something besides a snotty dismissal.
The early Christians may or may not count as either “socialist” or “successful” in your book, so leave them aside.
Sweden and Denmark don’t seem to count either, so what’s the use? If it ain’t a dictatorship it can’t be “socialist”, apparently.
Never mind whether higher education, or health care, or basic retirement income, are provided by The Government (not The Free Market) in some country or other. That country is not “socialist” at all. Or maybe it is, when you use the word. And of course subsidizing oil companies, or rescuing megabanks, automakers, and airlines with tax dollars is Capitalism, not “socialism”. It’s “leveling the playing field” or something.
Socialism is, by definition, a command economy. You get what the state gives you, you go where the state tells your to go and you do the work the state tells you to do. Owning your own business, owning your own home at the antithesis of socialism.
Funny thing: you’re describing an absolute monarchy and calling it “socialism”. But maybe an absolute monarchy would be OK with you, as long as you like “what the state gives you” personally.
–TP
McTX: Feel free to give me some examples of successful socialism. Seriously, I’d like to see you put up something besides a snotty dismissal.
The early Christians may or may not count as either “socialist” or “successful” in your book, so leave them aside.
Sweden and Denmark don’t seem to count either, so what’s the use? If it ain’t a dictatorship it can’t be “socialist”, apparently.
Never mind whether higher education, or health care, or basic retirement income, are provided by The Government (not The Free Market) in some country or other. That country is not “socialist” at all. Or maybe it is, when you use the word. And of course subsidizing oil companies, or rescuing megabanks, automakers, and airlines with tax dollars is Capitalism, not “socialism”. It’s “leveling the playing field” or something.
Socialism is, by definition, a command economy. You get what the state gives you, you go where the state tells your to go and you do the work the state tells you to do. Owning your own business, owning your own home at the antithesis of socialism.
Funny thing: you’re describing an absolute monarchy and calling it “socialism”. But maybe an absolute monarchy would be OK with you, as long as you like “what the state gives you” personally.
–TP
Socialism is, by definition, a command economy.
Socialism is, by definition, public ownership of the means of production.
That does not exclude a market economy. It doesn’t mean the government owns your house. It doesn’t mean the government tells you where to live, or what to buy, or how much you will have to pay for anything.
None of that is an argument for or against it. I’m just trying to be clear about what the word means.
Medicare For All is arguably in the direction of socialism, because the government would be the actual provider of insurance. Although not necessarily exclusively so, in most public payer models there is also a complementary private insurance system providing all the stuff that the public one doesn’t. Like Medicare Supplemental plans. And it’s not like M4A is the only available model.
Once again, not arguing for or against, just trying to be clear about what we’re talking about.
Denmark ain’t the gulag.
Socialism is, by definition, a command economy.
Socialism is, by definition, public ownership of the means of production.
That does not exclude a market economy. It doesn’t mean the government owns your house. It doesn’t mean the government tells you where to live, or what to buy, or how much you will have to pay for anything.
None of that is an argument for or against it. I’m just trying to be clear about what the word means.
Medicare For All is arguably in the direction of socialism, because the government would be the actual provider of insurance. Although not necessarily exclusively so, in most public payer models there is also a complementary private insurance system providing all the stuff that the public one doesn’t. Like Medicare Supplemental plans. And it’s not like M4A is the only available model.
Once again, not arguing for or against, just trying to be clear about what we’re talking about.
Denmark ain’t the gulag.
Sweden and Denmark don’t seem to count either, so what’s the use? If it ain’t a dictatorship it can’t be “socialist”, apparently.
What’s the use, indeed. There has never been a more disastrous presidency than Trump’s. GftNC’s quoted article is indicative of how we’re now perceived throughout the rest of the world, but who has time to mourn our international standing when the citizens of the USA themselves seem to have to sit back and watch the death of democracy with no nonviolent recourse, while being swept away by plague. All because the McKinneys of the world were afraid of Hillary Clinton, the most competent, “overprepared” candidate in my life, and are now making up definitions of “socialism” to dissuade them from voting for democrats (small d used intentionally), instead of watching the rest of this tragedy unfold.
It’s incomprehensible, but, yeah, what’s the use. And, yes, Romney is a “good” Republican, in that he cast a vote against the obviously criminal president, and was the only one to do it. It was a profile in courage, I guess. I applaud him for it, because it’s apparently the best that they can do.
Sweden and Denmark don’t seem to count either, so what’s the use? If it ain’t a dictatorship it can’t be “socialist”, apparently.
What’s the use, indeed. There has never been a more disastrous presidency than Trump’s. GftNC’s quoted article is indicative of how we’re now perceived throughout the rest of the world, but who has time to mourn our international standing when the citizens of the USA themselves seem to have to sit back and watch the death of democracy with no nonviolent recourse, while being swept away by plague. All because the McKinneys of the world were afraid of Hillary Clinton, the most competent, “overprepared” candidate in my life, and are now making up definitions of “socialism” to dissuade them from voting for democrats (small d used intentionally), instead of watching the rest of this tragedy unfold.
It’s incomprehensible, but, yeah, what’s the use. And, yes, Romney is a “good” Republican, in that he cast a vote against the obviously criminal president, and was the only one to do it. It was a profile in courage, I guess. I applaud him for it, because it’s apparently the best that they can do.
A recap of today’s Trump Covid-19 campaign money raiser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzyeGBdQmCM
He’s peeved, as the press gets religion.
It’s in his blood, like the virus itself.
Let’s loose the rats and the ratfuckers.
A recap of today’s Trump Covid-19 campaign money raiser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzyeGBdQmCM
He’s peeved, as the press gets religion.
It’s in his blood, like the virus itself.
Let’s loose the rats and the ratfuckers.
My impression is that Swedes have–generally–a greater desire and willingness to assure a social minimum on medical care, housing and food. Which is great if everyone agrees and there is the money to do it.
Sweden also has a draft. Here is the motto of the Swedish Military: “We defend Sweden and Swedish interests, our freedom and our right to live the way we choose.” As recent as 2018, every Swedish household received a pamphlet detailing a citizen’s obligations in a time of war, including this bit of exhortation, “Every statement that the resistance has ceased is false. Resistance shall be made all the time and in every situation. It depends on You – Your efforts, Your determination, Your will to survive.”
So, how much of that model do modern progressives want to buy into?
Count me in for everything – including national service, provided that we widen that service the way that people here have agreed to widen what counts as higher education.
I am as much of a “progressive” as Sweden is a “socialist nation state,” so that’s a start to ratifying this devil’s deal.
And Sweden’s social cohesion and homogeneity are, yes, part of their having been able to make a welfare state work. Same with the other Nordic nations. That’s being tested at the moment. But it can still work. The more diverse parts of California have made it work with larger populations than Sweden has. All that is required is enough familiarity to make the out-groups part of one’s in-groups. That’s been the story of my life, to the point where I don’t feel at home in a predominantly white society. Monoculture squicks me out.
But I see no reason why the challenges to social cohesion can’t be met and overcome. I see a lot of people set to make that more difficult because their money and power depends on making that change as hard as possible, but that just shifts the conversation from feasibility to strategy.
Are we in for making things better, more livable, and more widely fair, or are we just looking for excuses to take the easier route because fairness is hard and may cost us something?
The answer to that question tells us a lot about what each of us really believes.
My impression is that Swedes have–generally–a greater desire and willingness to assure a social minimum on medical care, housing and food. Which is great if everyone agrees and there is the money to do it.
Sweden also has a draft. Here is the motto of the Swedish Military: “We defend Sweden and Swedish interests, our freedom and our right to live the way we choose.” As recent as 2018, every Swedish household received a pamphlet detailing a citizen’s obligations in a time of war, including this bit of exhortation, “Every statement that the resistance has ceased is false. Resistance shall be made all the time and in every situation. It depends on You – Your efforts, Your determination, Your will to survive.”
So, how much of that model do modern progressives want to buy into?
Count me in for everything – including national service, provided that we widen that service the way that people here have agreed to widen what counts as higher education.
I am as much of a “progressive” as Sweden is a “socialist nation state,” so that’s a start to ratifying this devil’s deal.
And Sweden’s social cohesion and homogeneity are, yes, part of their having been able to make a welfare state work. Same with the other Nordic nations. That’s being tested at the moment. But it can still work. The more diverse parts of California have made it work with larger populations than Sweden has. All that is required is enough familiarity to make the out-groups part of one’s in-groups. That’s been the story of my life, to the point where I don’t feel at home in a predominantly white society. Monoculture squicks me out.
But I see no reason why the challenges to social cohesion can’t be met and overcome. I see a lot of people set to make that more difficult because their money and power depends on making that change as hard as possible, but that just shifts the conversation from feasibility to strategy.
Are we in for making things better, more livable, and more widely fair, or are we just looking for excuses to take the easier route because fairness is hard and may cost us something?
The answer to that question tells us a lot about what each of us really believes.
As far as taxation in Sweden, in 2018 they collected ~44% of GDP in taxes compared with ~24% in the US, with a top marginal tax wedges of about 70% and 40% respectively. Seems like we have a lot of room on this side of confiscatory.
https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-revenue.htm
As far as taxation in Sweden, in 2018 they collected ~44% of GDP in taxes compared with ~24% in the US, with a top marginal tax wedges of about 70% and 40% respectively. Seems like we have a lot of room on this side of confiscatory.
https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-revenue.htm
these are outliers and not consistent with a market economy in which gov’t levels the playing field.
Actually, the government does not “level the playing field” and it never has. You are starting from an utterly false premise.
these are outliers and not consistent with a market economy in which gov’t levels the playing field.
Actually, the government does not “level the playing field” and it never has. You are starting from an utterly false premise.
Are we in for making things better, more livable, and more widely fair, or are we just looking for excuses to take the easier route because fairness is hard and may cost us something?
This.
Are we in for making things better, more livable, and more widely fair, or are we just looking for excuses to take the easier route because fairness is hard and may cost us something?
This.
Count me in for everything
Yeah, me too. It’s been a while since this came up, but I’m more than fine with ubiquitous public service, military or otherwise.
The founders envisioned a relatively small – tiny, by today’s standards – professional army, essentially a professional officer corps. And then near-universal participation in a citizen militia.
Not a vaporware “unorganized militia”, but a by-god militia, under civil authority, trained and prepared according to laws and regulations created by Congress.
That, FWIW, is what the 2nd A is actually about, and not one damned thing else. But I digress.
Long story short, I’m not disturbed by the Swedish model.
Are we in for making things better, more livable, and more widely fair, or are we just looking for excuses to take the easier route because fairness is hard and may cost us something?
Fairness is actually not that hard. You just have to be interested in being fair.
Count me in for everything
Yeah, me too. It’s been a while since this came up, but I’m more than fine with ubiquitous public service, military or otherwise.
The founders envisioned a relatively small – tiny, by today’s standards – professional army, essentially a professional officer corps. And then near-universal participation in a citizen militia.
Not a vaporware “unorganized militia”, but a by-god militia, under civil authority, trained and prepared according to laws and regulations created by Congress.
That, FWIW, is what the 2nd A is actually about, and not one damned thing else. But I digress.
Long story short, I’m not disturbed by the Swedish model.
Are we in for making things better, more livable, and more widely fair, or are we just looking for excuses to take the easier route because fairness is hard and may cost us something?
Fairness is actually not that hard. You just have to be interested in being fair.
I’m more than fine with ubiquitous public service, military or otherwise.
Would that be voluntary? Or, everyone who meets the minimum requirements will be forced to participate?
I’m more than fine with ubiquitous public service, military or otherwise.
Would that be voluntary? Or, everyone who meets the minimum requirements will be forced to participate?
You really just need to agree on the definition of fair.
I dont know anyone who is against fair.
You really just need to agree on the definition of fair.
I dont know anyone who is against fair.
Would that be voluntary?
No.
You really just need to agree on the definition of fair.
Tru dat.
Would that be voluntary?
No.
You really just need to agree on the definition of fair.
Tru dat.
Would that be voluntary?
No.
So authoritarianism is OK. Just not the other side’s authoritarianism.
Would that be voluntary?
No.
So authoritarianism is OK. Just not the other side’s authoritarianism.
So authoritarianism is OK. Just not the other side’s authoritarianism.
Complying with what a political community has collectively agreed is normative or required is not authoritanism. It’s self-governance.
See also John Locke.
Authoritarianism is when you have no voice. You have a voice.
No worries in either case, you’ve nothing to worry about. About a half of one percent of Americans are active military. Nobody’s coming for you.
So authoritarianism is OK. Just not the other side’s authoritarianism.
Complying with what a political community has collectively agreed is normative or required is not authoritanism. It’s self-governance.
See also John Locke.
Authoritarianism is when you have no voice. You have a voice.
No worries in either case, you’ve nothing to worry about. About a half of one percent of Americans are active military. Nobody’s coming for you.
Complying with what a political community has collectively agreed is normative or required is not authoritanism. It’s self-governance.
You can dress it up however you like. But it’s still involuntary servitude.
Complying with what a political community has collectively agreed is normative or required is not authoritanism. It’s self-governance.
You can dress it up however you like. But it’s still involuntary servitude.
But it’s still involuntary servitude.
And playing the role of Typhoid Mary, our own CharlesWT!
But it’s still involuntary servitude.
And playing the role of Typhoid Mary, our own CharlesWT!
You can dress it up however you like. But it’s still involuntary servitude.
Nope, it’s not involuntary servitude if you are free to go elsewhere. Don’t like the draft, or national service, or whatever it’s called locally? Go somewhere that doesn’t have it. Nobody’s sealing the borders; nobody’s even talking about sealing them for exit. (And Somalia doesn’t even have a real national government to restrict entry.)
You can dress it up however you like. But it’s still involuntary servitude.
Nope, it’s not involuntary servitude if you are free to go elsewhere. Don’t like the draft, or national service, or whatever it’s called locally? Go somewhere that doesn’t have it. Nobody’s sealing the borders; nobody’s even talking about sealing them for exit. (And Somalia doesn’t even have a real national government to restrict entry.)
On the North Sea cost of Germany there once was the principle of ‘Wer nicht will deichen, der muß weichen’ (He, who is unwilling to participate in maintaining the dykes must leave and live elsewhere).
On the other hand general (military) conscription was seen by the ruling class as dangerous and revolutionary and the very last resort in response to Napoleon. And afterwards a lot of effort was made to erase the idea in the public mind that ‘the people’ had anything to do with it and the victory. According to credible witnesses Prussian king Friedrch Wilhelm III successfully managed to persuade himself that all the initiative was his* and that it was inconceivable that commoners had played any part of their own. Even the initial conscription order took a lot of persuasion by his counsellors along these lines**.
*and his fellow monarchs’
**unlike Jabbabonk Fr.W.III was a dedicated family man though
On the North Sea cost of Germany there once was the principle of ‘Wer nicht will deichen, der muß weichen’ (He, who is unwilling to participate in maintaining the dykes must leave and live elsewhere).
On the other hand general (military) conscription was seen by the ruling class as dangerous and revolutionary and the very last resort in response to Napoleon. And afterwards a lot of effort was made to erase the idea in the public mind that ‘the people’ had anything to do with it and the victory. According to credible witnesses Prussian king Friedrch Wilhelm III successfully managed to persuade himself that all the initiative was his* and that it was inconceivable that commoners had played any part of their own. Even the initial conscription order took a lot of persuasion by his counsellors along these lines**.
*and his fellow monarchs’
**unlike Jabbabonk Fr.W.III was a dedicated family man though
You can dress it up however you like. But it’s still involuntary servitude.
A lot of life is like that.
You can dress it up however you like. But it’s still involuntary servitude.
A lot of life is like that.
How the hell can this be true?
I got nothing.
How the hell can this be true?
I got nothing.
You can dress it up however you like. But it’s still involuntary servitude.
anything less than total anarchy is slavery!
You can dress it up however you like. But it’s still involuntary servitude.
anything less than total anarchy is slavery!
How the hell can this be true?
I got nothing.
Every single reporter should ask Jackass why this is happening in tonight’s dog and pony show. And every time he evades and lies, as he will, the next reporter should ask the same question, with supporting facts. And rope Fauci in (or whoever is there with any scientific or medical credibility) to restate how important testing is, and is going to continue to be, for the national good.
How the hell can this be true?
I got nothing.
Every single reporter should ask Jackass why this is happening in tonight’s dog and pony show. And every time he evades and lies, as he will, the next reporter should ask the same question, with supporting facts. And rope Fauci in (or whoever is there with any scientific or medical credibility) to restate how important testing is, and is going to continue to be, for the national good.
Jury Duty is involuntary servitude also, too.
But you might get to vote to put to death a MAGAt unlucky enough to face judgement, so that’s a plus.
Acquitting someone who rids the world of a MAGAt? GRAVY.
Jury Duty is involuntary servitude also, too.
But you might get to vote to put to death a MAGAt unlucky enough to face judgement, so that’s a plus.
Acquitting someone who rids the world of a MAGAt? GRAVY.
Charles, name one law of your choice you want to force me to involuntarily serve.
Charles, name one law of your choice you want to force me to involuntarily serve.
McKinneyTexas,
The Swedish draft is pretty mild a system. Their system is based on the idea that everyone is required to fill first a computer-based test, then attend a medical exam and an interview. The draft quota is first filled with qualified vo,unteers, and if there are not enough volunteers, they draft non-volunteers based on the need of service.
This system is actually a result of trying out an all-volunteer military. Their system was probably one with the best individual freedom for soldiers: you could quit at any time, just like in any job. They were never able to fill their recruitment quotas, and the attrition was huge. Out of people entering basic, less than 20 per cent finished their first enlistment honourably. Most regiments had, at best, only one or two operation-capable platoons.
After the Ukrainian War started, Sweden felt an urgent need to get an actually functioning military. They could not get it by voluntary recruitment, so conscription was the only choice. And that is really the question. For example, the Finnish military estimates that to be able to combat the forces Russia would be capable of sending against us, we need a military of 350,000 troops. The only way to raise such a force from a country of 5,5 million people is conscription. It is not a question of capitalism or socialism. It is a question of whether we want to have a defense or not. If we want to have one, we need to conscript.
McKinneyTexas,
The Swedish draft is pretty mild a system. Their system is based on the idea that everyone is required to fill first a computer-based test, then attend a medical exam and an interview. The draft quota is first filled with qualified vo,unteers, and if there are not enough volunteers, they draft non-volunteers based on the need of service.
This system is actually a result of trying out an all-volunteer military. Their system was probably one with the best individual freedom for soldiers: you could quit at any time, just like in any job. They were never able to fill their recruitment quotas, and the attrition was huge. Out of people entering basic, less than 20 per cent finished their first enlistment honourably. Most regiments had, at best, only one or two operation-capable platoons.
After the Ukrainian War started, Sweden felt an urgent need to get an actually functioning military. They could not get it by voluntary recruitment, so conscription was the only choice. And that is really the question. For example, the Finnish military estimates that to be able to combat the forces Russia would be capable of sending against us, we need a military of 350,000 troops. The only way to raise such a force from a country of 5,5 million people is conscription. It is not a question of capitalism or socialism. It is a question of whether we want to have a defense or not. If we want to have one, we need to conscript.
It is not a question of capitalism or socialism. It is a question of whether we want to have a defense or not.
Substitute whatever other common goods you think can fit in the place of “defense” and you’ll find the same reasoning works for many of them.
On another note:
We all know “involuntary servitude” is a way to say “slavery” without saying it. We also know no one is talking about the government somehow owning human beings, beating human beings, raping human beings, degrading human beings, separating human beings from their families, denying human beings their histories and heritages, denying human beings their freedom of movement, disallowing human beings to own property, disallowing human beings to marry, denying human beings education, or denying human beings access to money and commerce when discussing universal national service of some kind.
In fact, pay and education would be part of it. And it would be temporary. I would bet a good many people would find it to be a rewarding experience and would look back on it with fondness in their later years. I doubt many people would say that about slavery.
Let’s knock that kind of bullshit off so we can have a real conversation.
It is not a question of capitalism or socialism. It is a question of whether we want to have a defense or not.
Substitute whatever other common goods you think can fit in the place of “defense” and you’ll find the same reasoning works for many of them.
On another note:
We all know “involuntary servitude” is a way to say “slavery” without saying it. We also know no one is talking about the government somehow owning human beings, beating human beings, raping human beings, degrading human beings, separating human beings from their families, denying human beings their histories and heritages, denying human beings their freedom of movement, disallowing human beings to own property, disallowing human beings to marry, denying human beings education, or denying human beings access to money and commerce when discussing universal national service of some kind.
In fact, pay and education would be part of it. And it would be temporary. I would bet a good many people would find it to be a rewarding experience and would look back on it with fondness in their later years. I doubt many people would say that about slavery.
Let’s knock that kind of bullshit off so we can have a real conversation.
As Bannon said: Flood the Zone with Shit.
There will never be a real conversation in America again.
Until the shit-purveyors are terminated.
As Bannon said: Flood the Zone with Shit.
There will never be a real conversation in America again.
Until the shit-purveyors are terminated.
It is a question of whether we want to have a defense or not. If we want to have one, we need to conscript.
Which is not the case in the US. But some people on both the right and the left want to do a bit of social engineering by forcing people to devote a year or two of their lives to the state. This after they have just spent being where and when the state has ordered them to be for most of twelve years.
It is a question of whether we want to have a defense or not. If we want to have one, we need to conscript.
Which is not the case in the US. But some people on both the right and the left want to do a bit of social engineering by forcing people to devote a year or two of their lives to the state. This after they have just spent being where and when the state has ordered them to be for most of twelve years.
“Which is not the case in the US. But some people on both the right and the left want to do a bit of social engineering by forcing people to devote a year or two of their lives to the state. This after they have just spent being where and when the state has ordered them to be for most of twelve years.”
Thought it would bear repeating for the sheer, earnestly pristine hymen-intact virginity of it.
I was a Libertarian in Junior High School.
The hall monitors wouldn’t f*ck with me, for fear of being whacked upside the head with my hardback copy of “Atlas Shrugged”.*
*Cue explanation of the difference between Libertarianism and Objectivism and every other never tried ism.
“Which is not the case in the US. But some people on both the right and the left want to do a bit of social engineering by forcing people to devote a year or two of their lives to the state. This after they have just spent being where and when the state has ordered them to be for most of twelve years.”
Thought it would bear repeating for the sheer, earnestly pristine hymen-intact virginity of it.
I was a Libertarian in Junior High School.
The hall monitors wouldn’t f*ck with me, for fear of being whacked upside the head with my hardback copy of “Atlas Shrugged”.*
*Cue explanation of the difference between Libertarianism and Objectivism and every other never tried ism.
We also know no one is talking about the government somehow owning human beings, …
So, borrowing for a period of time? And if you refuse to be borrowed, you go to prison. Now that can be slave-like.
I would bet a good many people would find it to be a rewarding experience and would look back on it with fondness in their later years.
The government shouldn’t be in the business of giving people rewarding experiences and fond memories. And what about the people who found it to be a horrendous experience? Screw them?
We also know no one is talking about the government somehow owning human beings, …
So, borrowing for a period of time? And if you refuse to be borrowed, you go to prison. Now that can be slave-like.
I would bet a good many people would find it to be a rewarding experience and would look back on it with fondness in their later years.
The government shouldn’t be in the business of giving people rewarding experiences and fond memories. And what about the people who found it to be a horrendous experience? Screw them?
So, borrowing for a period of time? And if you refuse to be borrowed, you go to prison. Now that can be slave-like.
Just to be clear, how would jury duty not fit that description, too?**
** OK, I realize you consider any and all laws coercion. But hypothetically….
So, borrowing for a period of time? And if you refuse to be borrowed, you go to prison. Now that can be slave-like.
Just to be clear, how would jury duty not fit that description, too?**
** OK, I realize you consider any and all laws coercion. But hypothetically….
No it’s not F**KING SLAVE-LIKE!!! There, now I’m yelling in text. You’re pushing total bullshit here. Slavery was an utterly monstrous institution. Stop comparing national service to slavery. They are not the same at all. You’re minimizing the immorality and inhumanity of slavery when you do this. It’s really, really, really not cool.
No it’s not F**KING SLAVE-LIKE!!! There, now I’m yelling in text. You’re pushing total bullshit here. Slavery was an utterly monstrous institution. Stop comparing national service to slavery. They are not the same at all. You’re minimizing the immorality and inhumanity of slavery when you do this. It’s really, really, really not cool.
Just to be clear, how would jury duty not fit that description, too?
Yes, but it’s short-termed and undemanding enough that most people grudgingly go along with it. The courts could pay competitive wages for jury service like everyone else in the legal system.
Just to be clear, how would jury duty not fit that description, too?
Yes, but it’s short-termed and undemanding enough that most people grudgingly go along with it. The courts could pay competitive wages for jury service like everyone else in the legal system.
Boris Johnson seems to be recovering from his medical ordeal while both being enslaved and enslaving all those paying for his enslavement.
Pull the plug.
Set us free.
Boris Johnson seems to be recovering from his medical ordeal while both being enslaved and enslaving all those paying for his enslavement.
Pull the plug.
Set us free.
“I. Why Mandatory National Service Is Unjust.
Mandatory national service is not just another policy proposal. It is an idea that undermines one of the fundamental principles of a free society: that people own themselves and their labor. We are not the property of the government, of a majority of the population, or of some employer. Mandatory national service is a frontal attack on that principle because it is a form of forced labor—literally so. Millions of people would be forced to do jobs required by the government on pain of criminal punishment if they disobey. Under most proposals, they would have to perform this forced labor for months or even years on end.
…
II. Why Mandatory National Service is Unconstitutional.
The constitutional issues raised by mandatory national service are not as important as the moral ones. Nonetheless, any such proposal is likely to be unconstitutional, as well: if it includes civilian service, it would be beyond the scope of federal power, and it also violates the Thirteenth Amendment.”
Why Mandatory National Service is Both Unjust and Unconstitutional: A post based on my presentation at a panel on mandatory national service organized by the National Commission on Military, National, and Public Service.
“I. Why Mandatory National Service Is Unjust.
Mandatory national service is not just another policy proposal. It is an idea that undermines one of the fundamental principles of a free society: that people own themselves and their labor. We are not the property of the government, of a majority of the population, or of some employer. Mandatory national service is a frontal attack on that principle because it is a form of forced labor—literally so. Millions of people would be forced to do jobs required by the government on pain of criminal punishment if they disobey. Under most proposals, they would have to perform this forced labor for months or even years on end.
…
II. Why Mandatory National Service is Unconstitutional.
The constitutional issues raised by mandatory national service are not as important as the moral ones. Nonetheless, any such proposal is likely to be unconstitutional, as well: if it includes civilian service, it would be beyond the scope of federal power, and it also violates the Thirteenth Amendment.”
Why Mandatory National Service is Both Unjust and Unconstitutional: A post based on my presentation at a panel on mandatory national service organized by the National Commission on Military, National, and Public Service.
In fact, pay and education would be part of it. And it would be temporary. I would bet a good many people would find it to be a rewarding experience and would look back on it with fondness in their later years. I doubt many people would say that about slavery.
Let’s knock that kind of bullshit off so we can have a real conversation.
****
No it’s not F**KING SLAVE-LIKE!!! There, now I’m yelling in text. You’re pushing total bullshit here. Slavery was an utterly monstrous institution. Stop comparing national service to slavery. They are not the same at all. You’re minimizing the immorality and inhumanity of slavery when you do this. It’s really, really, really not cool.
What hsh said, and again. There are reasons to debate whether or not it would be a good thing, but to compare it to slavery is absurd and insulting. Anybody still doing so should GTFU (the G is for Grow).
In fact, pay and education would be part of it. And it would be temporary. I would bet a good many people would find it to be a rewarding experience and would look back on it with fondness in their later years. I doubt many people would say that about slavery.
Let’s knock that kind of bullshit off so we can have a real conversation.
****
No it’s not F**KING SLAVE-LIKE!!! There, now I’m yelling in text. You’re pushing total bullshit here. Slavery was an utterly monstrous institution. Stop comparing national service to slavery. They are not the same at all. You’re minimizing the immorality and inhumanity of slavery when you do this. It’s really, really, really not cool.
What hsh said, and again. There are reasons to debate whether or not it would be a good thing, but to compare it to slavery is absurd and insulting. Anybody still doing so should GTFU (the G is for Grow).
Pull the plug.
Set us free.
I am a Boris-despiser, and have been in conversation with many more over the last few days, and FWIW not a one of us wishes BoJo dead.
Pull the plug.
Set us free.
I am a Boris-despiser, and have been in conversation with many more over the last few days, and FWIW not a one of us wishes BoJo dead.
I am a Boris-despiser, and have been in conversation with many more over the last few days, and FWIW not a one of us wishes BoJo dead.
What GftNC said.
I am a Boris-despiser, and have been in conversation with many more over the last few days, and FWIW not a one of us wishes BoJo dead.
What GftNC said.
You missed the point, GftNC.
I was merely trying to fulfill Charles’ expansive view of absolutely unfettered self-realization without taxpayer-supplied ventilators FORCING air into Boris’ enslaved lungs by FORCING enslaved rate-payers in England to pay for it.
Boris forcibly retired to live out his life, after government has forcibly saved his small, crabbed life without f*cking with me or you would be fine by me.
Speaking of ventilators, I want to correct something McKinney asserted last week, I think, on these pages. He said he prefers the private sector making decisions over our lives rather than incompetent government, using the purchase of broken ventilators as an example.
Turns out the Trump Administration, the leaders of the worldwide conservative movement forcing government to be run like a private sector business, or satrapy, or Mar-a-Lago, if you prefer, let the maintenance contracts on the ventilators in government warehouses lapse, following standard budget-cutting, just-not-in-time private business practices, which turn out to be murderous business standards when applied to government.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/04/09/straight-into-my-veins/
Frum, the conservative is a hater. We need more haters of his ilk.
These murders, not by government, but by private business interests who have seized control of MY government for malignant purposes, which include making it incompetent, untrustworthy, and unavailable to individuals and states and municipalities, except in so far as conservatives in all three branches of government can use the power of the state they have illegally commandeered can prevent me from fucking voting, will be goddamned avenged.
You missed the point, GftNC.
I was merely trying to fulfill Charles’ expansive view of absolutely unfettered self-realization without taxpayer-supplied ventilators FORCING air into Boris’ enslaved lungs by FORCING enslaved rate-payers in England to pay for it.
Boris forcibly retired to live out his life, after government has forcibly saved his small, crabbed life without f*cking with me or you would be fine by me.
Speaking of ventilators, I want to correct something McKinney asserted last week, I think, on these pages. He said he prefers the private sector making decisions over our lives rather than incompetent government, using the purchase of broken ventilators as an example.
Turns out the Trump Administration, the leaders of the worldwide conservative movement forcing government to be run like a private sector business, or satrapy, or Mar-a-Lago, if you prefer, let the maintenance contracts on the ventilators in government warehouses lapse, following standard budget-cutting, just-not-in-time private business practices, which turn out to be murderous business standards when applied to government.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/04/09/straight-into-my-veins/
Frum, the conservative is a hater. We need more haters of his ilk.
These murders, not by government, but by private business interests who have seized control of MY government for malignant purposes, which include making it incompetent, untrustworthy, and unavailable to individuals and states and municipalities, except in so far as conservatives in all three branches of government can use the power of the state they have illegally commandeered can prevent me from fucking voting, will be goddamned avenged.
To the extent that wasn’t what you meant, JDT, I apologise. Trying hard to hold on to one’s humanity here, but I admit it’s easier in some cases than others (we discussed Jackass in the same conversations, and all admitted that we found this a harder sell. Probably still doable, but a harder sell).
To the extent that wasn’t what you meant, JDT, I apologise. Trying hard to hold on to one’s humanity here, but I admit it’s easier in some cases than others (we discussed Jackass in the same conversations, and all admitted that we found this a harder sell. Probably still doable, but a harder sell).
And for all trekkies out there (and for people who reject two masters, an alternative):
https://twitter.com/paullicino/status/1247571606689341440/photo/1
And for all trekkies out there (and for people who reject two masters, an alternative):
https://twitter.com/paullicino/status/1247571606689341440/photo/1
No sweat.
Carry on.
No sweat.
Carry on.
but it’s short-termed and undemanding enough that most people grudgingly go along with it.
“most people grudgingly go along with it” What an astonishing take on a moral position!
And I note that most people grudgingly go along with national service, too. Even the draft, when it was at its least popular in the late ’60s, had that much acceptability.
but it’s short-termed and undemanding enough that most people grudgingly go along with it.
“most people grudgingly go along with it” What an astonishing take on a moral position!
And I note that most people grudgingly go along with national service, too. Even the draft, when it was at its least popular in the late ’60s, had that much acceptability.
And I note that most people grudgingly go along with national service, too.
People grudgingly go along with a lot of things when they’re backed up by fines and jail.
And I note that most people grudgingly go along with national service, too.
People grudgingly go along with a lot of things when they’re backed up by fines and jail.
I would say that there was a range of grudgingly in the late 60’s, ranging from hell yeah to hell no we wont go. But yes 2.7 million people went to Vietnam some substantial portion of whom went grudgingly.
I would say that there was a range of grudgingly in the late 60’s, ranging from hell yeah to hell no we wont go. But yes 2.7 million people went to Vietnam some substantial portion of whom went grudgingly.
No it’s not F**KING SLAVE-LIKE!!!
I never said it was. I alluded to involuntary servitude which is not on the same level as slavery.
No it’s not F**KING SLAVE-LIKE!!!
I never said it was. I alluded to involuntary servitude which is not on the same level as slavery.
Yes, like being forced by government to grudgingly stop trespassing on or stealing Libertarian’s private property, the latter platted out by government using my stolen tax dollars.
A simple thank you will suffice.
Charles, in a stupid conversation, I admit you have some staying power.
Yes, like being forced by government to grudgingly stop trespassing on or stealing Libertarian’s private property, the latter platted out by government using my stolen tax dollars.
A simple thank you will suffice.
Charles, in a stupid conversation, I admit you have some staying power.
At some point, Charles, you will be on the phone to government, seeking its skirts to hide among for protection.
At some point, Charles, you will be on the phone to government, seeking its skirts to hide among for protection.
CharlesWT @ 11:29 AM: So, borrowing for a period of time? And if you refuse to be borrowed, you go to prison. Now that can be slave-like.
CharlesWT @ 11:29 AM: So, borrowing for a period of time? And if you refuse to be borrowed, you go to prison. Now that can be slave-like.
Yes, like being forced by government to grudgingly stop trespassing on or stealing Libertarian’s private property, …
Most laws should be of the form of discouraging, stopping people from doing things instead of forcing them to do things. And only when what they’re doing adversely impacts other people.
Yes, like being forced by government to grudgingly stop trespassing on or stealing Libertarian’s private property, …
Most laws should be of the form of discouraging, stopping people from doing things instead of forcing them to do things. And only when what they’re doing adversely impacts other people.
CharlesWT @ 11:29 AM: So, borrowing for a period of time? And if you refuse to be borrowed, you go to prison. Now that can be slave-like.
Perhaps I was unclear. Being in prison meets many of the markers of being a slave.
CharlesWT @ 11:29 AM: So, borrowing for a period of time? And if you refuse to be borrowed, you go to prison. Now that can be slave-like.
Perhaps I was unclear. Being in prison meets many of the markers of being a slave.
Most laws should be of the form of discouraging, stopping people from doing things
no law can stop anyone from doing anything unless there is some kind of coercion backing it up.
have you ever met a person?
Most laws should be of the form of discouraging, stopping people from doing things
no law can stop anyone from doing anything unless there is some kind of coercion backing it up.
have you ever met a person?
no law can stop anyone from doing anything unless there is some kind of coercion backing it up.
I didn’t say there shouldn’t be. Otherwise, the law would be pointless.
no law can stop anyone from doing anything unless there is some kind of coercion backing it up.
I didn’t say there shouldn’t be. Otherwise, the law would be pointless.
I didn’t say there shouldn’t be.
what? what’s the point of this entire conversation?
I didn’t say there shouldn’t be.
what? what’s the point of this entire conversation?
CharlesWT,
hairshirthedonist has a good, consistent position. I would not argue against him, as he starts from a different set of premises.
Being in the army is not really nice, when you are there. You lead a very regimented life, and are under duty to obey orders and regulations at all times. If you fail in your duty, you are criminally culpable. Moreover, the exercises are not nice: you are wet, cold, hungry and utterly tired, and even then, you are trying to learn how to kill your fellow human beings efficiently and ruthlessly. The pay is not that good (in Sweden, they pay about 15 euros per day. In Finland, they pay 5.15 per day. Plus free room, board, uniform and medical care.) So, even if the service is organised well, training is efficient and pedagogically sound, and you are not being humiliated for its own sake, military service is confining and degrading.
Not to mention that Nordic countries don’t end conscription with the eventual demobilisation of conscripts. You are discharged from the reserves only at 60 years of age, and that is not only a theory. Come war, all young amd many middle aged reservists would get mobilised, and would be legally obligated to actually kill fellow humans.
It can be a great fulfilling time, if you are fit for that. It can also be a living nightmare for a year. And learning to kill a sentient being in organised manner is, alone, an assault on the learner’s human dignity.
I would not press such a burden on my fellow citizens unless I would feel it is necessary for the well-being of everyone. We live right by a great power that suffers under aggressive authoritarian government, is steadily committing human rights abuses, and that has committed genocide against Finns already twice. I am ready to give up part of my own and my fellow citizens’ human dignity to keep the rest of it. However, I can understand very well those who don’t think it is possible to make that kind of compromise.
CharlesWT,
hairshirthedonist has a good, consistent position. I would not argue against him, as he starts from a different set of premises.
Being in the army is not really nice, when you are there. You lead a very regimented life, and are under duty to obey orders and regulations at all times. If you fail in your duty, you are criminally culpable. Moreover, the exercises are not nice: you are wet, cold, hungry and utterly tired, and even then, you are trying to learn how to kill your fellow human beings efficiently and ruthlessly. The pay is not that good (in Sweden, they pay about 15 euros per day. In Finland, they pay 5.15 per day. Plus free room, board, uniform and medical care.) So, even if the service is organised well, training is efficient and pedagogically sound, and you are not being humiliated for its own sake, military service is confining and degrading.
Not to mention that Nordic countries don’t end conscription with the eventual demobilisation of conscripts. You are discharged from the reserves only at 60 years of age, and that is not only a theory. Come war, all young amd many middle aged reservists would get mobilised, and would be legally obligated to actually kill fellow humans.
It can be a great fulfilling time, if you are fit for that. It can also be a living nightmare for a year. And learning to kill a sentient being in organised manner is, alone, an assault on the learner’s human dignity.
I would not press such a burden on my fellow citizens unless I would feel it is necessary for the well-being of everyone. We live right by a great power that suffers under aggressive authoritarian government, is steadily committing human rights abuses, and that has committed genocide against Finns already twice. I am ready to give up part of my own and my fellow citizens’ human dignity to keep the rest of it. However, I can understand very well those who don’t think it is possible to make that kind of compromise.
Lurker, I take your point. But, judged by many of us, the US military is already too large and expensive. And it would be greatly more so if it had to train and manage tens of thousands of people it would not otherwise enlist. In a population of 330 million, if it needs more personal, it need only raise wages.
Lurker, I take your point. But, judged by many of us, the US military is already too large and expensive. And it would be greatly more so if it had to train and manage tens of thousands of people it would not otherwise enlist. In a population of 330 million, if it needs more personal, it need only raise wages.
I am ready to give up part of my own and my fellow citizens’ human dignity to keep the rest of it. However, I can understand very well those who don’t think it is possible to make that kind of compromise.
I think the way to phrase that is
“those who have the luxury of declining to make that kind of compromise. Because others are willing (or can be bribed) to do it for them. But the compromise still has to be made by someone, given the real world we live in.”
I am ready to give up part of my own and my fellow citizens’ human dignity to keep the rest of it. However, I can understand very well those who don’t think it is possible to make that kind of compromise.
I think the way to phrase that is
“those who have the luxury of declining to make that kind of compromise. Because others are willing (or can be bribed) to do it for them. But the compromise still has to be made by someone, given the real world we live in.”
As far as I can tell, human beings are in general obliged to do a variety of things purely by virtue of being part of one community or other. Some of those communities are voluntary, some (e.g. family) you are just born into. In general you can find a way out of those obligations, but also in general that requires stepping away from the community that imposes them.
So, usually people suck it up and carry on.
Taxes, jury duty, conscription when that exists, all range from being a PITA to requiring the potential loss of your life. They aren’t trivial obligations, even something like jury duty can be a challenging experience, depending on if you are empaneled and what the trial is.
They are obligations imposed on us as the price of belonging to a political community.
In our particular political tradition, this is seen as being acceptable as long as you have a voice in establishing what the obligations are. You have that voice, however attenuated by the weight of tradition and the sheer number of people involved.
Maybe someday somebody will find the magical secret that will let human beings co-exist without the burden of government and the obligations that come with government. Until then, we all live with the situation as it is.
If it makes you feel better to rail against it, carry on.
As far as I can tell, human beings are in general obliged to do a variety of things purely by virtue of being part of one community or other. Some of those communities are voluntary, some (e.g. family) you are just born into. In general you can find a way out of those obligations, but also in general that requires stepping away from the community that imposes them.
So, usually people suck it up and carry on.
Taxes, jury duty, conscription when that exists, all range from being a PITA to requiring the potential loss of your life. They aren’t trivial obligations, even something like jury duty can be a challenging experience, depending on if you are empaneled and what the trial is.
They are obligations imposed on us as the price of belonging to a political community.
In our particular political tradition, this is seen as being acceptable as long as you have a voice in establishing what the obligations are. You have that voice, however attenuated by the weight of tradition and the sheer number of people involved.
Maybe someday somebody will find the magical secret that will let human beings co-exist without the burden of government and the obligations that come with government. Until then, we all live with the situation as it is.
If it makes you feel better to rail against it, carry on.
Just to be clear, my use of “national service” does not exclusively mean military service. It could be Peace Corps kind of stuff. It could be working in an adult-literacy program. It could be Meals on Wheels. Look at all the stuff the PWA did back in the day, including arts, theater, music, publishing, organizing historical records – not just construction. Lots of possibilities.
Just to be clear, my use of “national service” does not exclusively mean military service. It could be Peace Corps kind of stuff. It could be working in an adult-literacy program. It could be Meals on Wheels. Look at all the stuff the PWA did back in the day, including arts, theater, music, publishing, organizing historical records – not just construction. Lots of possibilities.
wj,
Everyone has the possibility of deciding, individually, not to make that compromise. There are many things you can be forced to do, with modern methods of psychological torture, but you cannot be forced to serve in a military. The techniques that are needed to break you will probably break you too badly to serve efficiently.
There are many uplifting stories of people who have rather chosen death than taken up arms against other people. I would raise up Arndt Pekurinen, whose story shows exactly this kind of determination for non-violence. I don’t accept his choice but I respect it greatly.
wj,
Everyone has the possibility of deciding, individually, not to make that compromise. There are many things you can be forced to do, with modern methods of psychological torture, but you cannot be forced to serve in a military. The techniques that are needed to break you will probably break you too badly to serve efficiently.
There are many uplifting stories of people who have rather chosen death than taken up arms against other people. I would raise up Arndt Pekurinen, whose story shows exactly this kind of determination for non-violence. I don’t accept his choice but I respect it greatly.
A few days ago, we were discussing the lack of basic medical supplies like masks and ventilators.
One item under discussion was how – absent a national procurement and distribution policy, which is the usual thing Presidents do when facing a national emergency – the states are as a consequence forced to bid against one another for those supplies.
IIRC, McK said this was simply the free market at work: there is a commodity in hot demand, so of course there are bidding wars. Let the highest bidder prevail!
Well. Now, even when a state government *has* prevailed, and outbid everyone else, and bought those supplies, multiple sources are reporting that FEMA is seizing them during shipment, diverting them from the buyer, and handing them over to the T Administration… which then turns around and uses them as patronage gifts and rewards for political support.
I’m curious how that fits into the “free market” model. McK?
A few days ago, we were discussing the lack of basic medical supplies like masks and ventilators.
One item under discussion was how – absent a national procurement and distribution policy, which is the usual thing Presidents do when facing a national emergency – the states are as a consequence forced to bid against one another for those supplies.
IIRC, McK said this was simply the free market at work: there is a commodity in hot demand, so of course there are bidding wars. Let the highest bidder prevail!
Well. Now, even when a state government *has* prevailed, and outbid everyone else, and bought those supplies, multiple sources are reporting that FEMA is seizing them during shipment, diverting them from the buyer, and handing them over to the T Administration… which then turns around and uses them as patronage gifts and rewards for political support.
I’m curious how that fits into the “free market” model. McK?
Everyone has the possibility of deciding, individually, not to make that compromise.
True. But my point was, they are making that decision knowing that they will probably not have to pay the price that would be charged if essentially everybody in their society made the same choice. In that sense, it is a luxury.
As you say, there are cases where someone made the decision knowing that they would have to pay the price. (And then had to pay the price.) Like you, I don’t agree, but I can at least respect their decision. However, those who know that they won’t have to pay? Not so much. Maybe, maybe, they would have made the same choice anyway. But that wouldn’t be the odds-on bet.
Everyone has the possibility of deciding, individually, not to make that compromise.
True. But my point was, they are making that decision knowing that they will probably not have to pay the price that would be charged if essentially everybody in their society made the same choice. In that sense, it is a luxury.
As you say, there are cases where someone made the decision knowing that they would have to pay the price. (And then had to pay the price.) Like you, I don’t agree, but I can at least respect their decision. However, those who know that they won’t have to pay? Not so much. Maybe, maybe, they would have made the same choice anyway. But that wouldn’t be the odds-on bet.
As you say, there are cases where someone made the decision knowing that they would have to pay the price.
cf Civil Disobedience, history of
As you say, there are cases where someone made the decision knowing that they would have to pay the price.
cf Civil Disobedience, history of
“I would not press such a burden on my fellow citizens unless I would feel it is necessary for the well-being of everyone.
There are trucks that can be driven through that loophole. True story.
“I would not press such a burden on my fellow citizens unless I would feel it is necessary for the well-being of everyone.
There are trucks that can be driven through that loophole. True story.
IIRC, McK said this was simply the free market at work
I’m not sure if McK was making that argument or not, but others surely are.
FWIW, the case at hand – lack of availability of medical supplies, including technically sophisticated medical equipment, during a pandemic in which thousands of people are dying – presents literally none of the conditions for an efficient market.
Markets are not magical unicorn factories. Specific conditions have to exist in order for market dynamics to be effective.
IIRC, McK said this was simply the free market at work
I’m not sure if McK was making that argument or not, but others surely are.
FWIW, the case at hand – lack of availability of medical supplies, including technically sophisticated medical equipment, during a pandemic in which thousands of people are dying – presents literally none of the conditions for an efficient market.
Markets are not magical unicorn factories. Specific conditions have to exist in order for market dynamics to be effective.
Meanwhile, on the xenophobia front, this:
https://kvoa.com/news/local-news/2020/04/09/trump-administration-quietly-shuts-down-us-asylum-system-in-response-to-covid-19-pandemic/
Note that this means that asylum seekers cannot even apply before they are booted out.
Miller is just totally unwilling to let a good crisis go to waste. When he could use it to further his hatred of others.
Meanwhile, on the xenophobia front, this:
https://kvoa.com/news/local-news/2020/04/09/trump-administration-quietly-shuts-down-us-asylum-system-in-response-to-covid-19-pandemic/
Note that this means that asylum seekers cannot even apply before they are booted out.
Miller is just totally unwilling to let a good crisis go to waste. When he could use it to further his hatred of others.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Shortages-of-protective-gear-hamper-COVID-19-15144500.php
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Shortages-of-protective-gear-hamper-COVID-19-15144500.php
Libertarian republican subhuman brandishes weapon in law class on ZOOMBoomYourfuckingdead:
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/04/how-your-neocofederate-affirmative-action-network-sausage-gets-made
Non-vaccinated libertarian subhumans right across the state line from me threaten to force Covid-19 on my son.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a32098036/kansas-republicans-easter-church-coronavirus/
Might pop out to the Kansas and or Oklahoma border with a sniper rifle for self-defense.
See if I can identify the republican murderers exercising their freedoms by trespassing on my state while conceal carrying disease and illegal weaponry.
I may have to quarantine their children for a lengthy period and release ’em in Mexico where they don’t trouble no one no how for being assholes.
Libertarian republican subhuman brandishes weapon in law class on ZOOMBoomYourfuckingdead:
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/04/how-your-neocofederate-affirmative-action-network-sausage-gets-made
Non-vaccinated libertarian subhumans right across the state line from me threaten to force Covid-19 on my son.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a32098036/kansas-republicans-easter-church-coronavirus/
Might pop out to the Kansas and or Oklahoma border with a sniper rifle for self-defense.
See if I can identify the republican murderers exercising their freedoms by trespassing on my state while conceal carrying disease and illegal weaponry.
I may have to quarantine their children for a lengthy period and release ’em in Mexico where they don’t trouble no one no how for being assholes.
Now John, just let them go off to their church services, cough on each other, pray for deliverance, and then let nature take its course. Given what their preferred policies have done to hospital capacity in the areas they control, it will be messy but quick. And without you lifting a finger.
Now John, just let them go off to their church services, cough on each other, pray for deliverance, and then let nature take its course. Given what their preferred policies have done to hospital capacity in the areas they control, it will be messy but quick. And without you lifting a finger.
Yeahbutt, they’ll be coming into Colorado for deer hunting season next Fall carrying the hoof and mouth and Lyme disease with them as well.
These zombies just are not hygienic.
Speaking of dirty guys, I was going to post one of my “Before It Became News” predictions yesterday regarding this Oklahoma freak show murderer of man and beast being pardoned soon by Trump and appointed Supervisory Inspector General of the U.S. Government’s Concentration Camp System, now under construction in red vermin states as part of the reality show infrastructure stimulus package.
Trump, being smarter than McKinney and me together plus the rest of ya’s here beats us to the punch again.
https://nypost.com/2020/04/08/donald-trump-on-joe-exotic-pardon-ill-take-a-look/
I’m ashamed at my tardy failure of imagination regarding the murder syndicate called the Republican Party.
I’m losing my touch.
I know that all of you expect more of me.
I try. I do.
Yeahbutt, they’ll be coming into Colorado for deer hunting season next Fall carrying the hoof and mouth and Lyme disease with them as well.
These zombies just are not hygienic.
Speaking of dirty guys, I was going to post one of my “Before It Became News” predictions yesterday regarding this Oklahoma freak show murderer of man and beast being pardoned soon by Trump and appointed Supervisory Inspector General of the U.S. Government’s Concentration Camp System, now under construction in red vermin states as part of the reality show infrastructure stimulus package.
Trump, being smarter than McKinney and me together plus the rest of ya’s here beats us to the punch again.
https://nypost.com/2020/04/08/donald-trump-on-joe-exotic-pardon-ill-take-a-look/
I’m ashamed at my tardy failure of imagination regarding the murder syndicate called the Republican Party.
I’m losing my touch.
I know that all of you expect more of me.
I try. I do.
The new Deep State Unelected Bureaucrackpot murderous head of Trump’s next Council on Reviving Republican Vermin Ban accounts and Fucking Everyone Else:
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/04/this-economist-wants-to-cut-worker-salaries-and-tax-nonprofits-and-he-might-lead-trumps-recovery-effort/
Trump is also halting funding for Covid-19 testing teams tomorrow across the country.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/04/trump-admin-pulls-funding-for-drive-through-covid-19-testing/
Cold-blooded murderers.
Anyone who does not vote for Joe Biden in November .. I don’t care who he finger-fucked in 1993 .. is complicit in the republican conservative genocide of American citizens and will be met with the kind of savage justice meted out to Nazis in the closing days of World War II and Commies as the Soviet Union’s grasp on Eastern Europe fell in 1989.
Tear down That Genocidal Republican Party, or goddamned else!
The new Deep State Unelected Bureaucrackpot murderous head of Trump’s next Council on Reviving Republican Vermin Ban accounts and Fucking Everyone Else:
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/04/this-economist-wants-to-cut-worker-salaries-and-tax-nonprofits-and-he-might-lead-trumps-recovery-effort/
Trump is also halting funding for Covid-19 testing teams tomorrow across the country.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/04/trump-admin-pulls-funding-for-drive-through-covid-19-testing/
Cold-blooded murderers.
Anyone who does not vote for Joe Biden in November .. I don’t care who he finger-fucked in 1993 .. is complicit in the republican conservative genocide of American citizens and will be met with the kind of savage justice meted out to Nazis in the closing days of World War II and Commies as the Soviet Union’s grasp on Eastern Europe fell in 1989.
Tear down That Genocidal Republican Party, or goddamned else!
Trump gathers his new Covid-19 Dispersion Task Force, sans Fauci and anyone else who knows anything, for their first meeting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyF_XafkUCk
Trump gathers his new Covid-19 Dispersion Task Force, sans Fauci and anyone else who knows anything, for their first meeting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyF_XafkUCk
Cold-blooded murderer Trump provides a timeline today for opening America during his who-can-vomit-farther-me-or-sean-hannity horror briefing.
Says c’mon out, you are safe, you wouldn’t believe how safe you are, it will be beautiful and perfect, take a deep breath, give us a little twirl and exhale on Mike Pence as a test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQey4ai1_zI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1swzjZvAeiI
Cold-blooded murderer Trump provides a timeline today for opening America during his who-can-vomit-farther-me-or-sean-hannity horror briefing.
Says c’mon out, you are safe, you wouldn’t believe how safe you are, it will be beautiful and perfect, take a deep breath, give us a little twirl and exhale on Mike Pence as a test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQey4ai1_zI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1swzjZvAeiI
Lurker, new a Finnish guy back in the day, and the one thing that I gathered about his military obligation is that he got some really good training in cross-country skiing.
Winter biathlon, they rule it. Skiing and shooting.
On another comment, from a friend who was drafted to Vietnam, made during basic training to his drill Sargent who asked him “what he thought about it”:
“It’s like playing army when you’re a kid, but the toys are better, there’s more rules, and you can’t go home when you get tired.”
MAJOR KP DUTY.
Lurker, new a Finnish guy back in the day, and the one thing that I gathered about his military obligation is that he got some really good training in cross-country skiing.
Winter biathlon, they rule it. Skiing and shooting.
On another comment, from a friend who was drafted to Vietnam, made during basic training to his drill Sargent who asked him “what he thought about it”:
“It’s like playing army when you’re a kid, but the toys are better, there’s more rules, and you can’t go home when you get tired.”
MAJOR KP DUTY.
I think the article-writer is overplaying this for click-bait effect, but I thought his take fits with part of the conversation here about U.S. cohesion, or lack thereof.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-04-09/california-declares-independence-from-trump-s-coronavirus-plans?fbclid=IwAR1X3IqmPKXNHwjD9foEX75AL4VCWWSTN1u1pEfou87Pye4o56bDhH2FA7U
I think the article-writer is overplaying this for click-bait effect, but I thought his take fits with part of the conversation here about U.S. cohesion, or lack thereof.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-04-09/california-declares-independence-from-trump-s-coronavirus-plans?fbclid=IwAR1X3IqmPKXNHwjD9foEX75AL4VCWWSTN1u1pEfou87Pye4o56bDhH2FA7U
I want to come back to strategic bombing for a sec:
He concluded: “in the last spring of the war I could no longer find any excuses.”
I can help him with his problem: Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Treblinka, Chlemno, Dauchau, to name a few.
I have a family interest in this. Dad learned in the 1980s, when reading about then-recently declassified aerial photos of Auschwitz and other camps, that some of them had been taken by the 7th Photo Reconnaissance Wing of P-38s, to which he’d belonged. Some work with his log books suggests but does not make it possible to establish for sure that he took some of the photos in question.
This troubled him. A lot. The idea that he helped gather information which could have led to an identification of the camps as what they were and that wasn’t acted on until ground troops hit the scene was not a comfortable one. So he poked at it further, and we talked about it as he went.
This is what he settled on. It’s not readily apparent from purely aerial data that the camps were for mass extermination. A likelier interpretation would have been that they were factories running on slave labor, which is ghastly evil but not unlike a bunch of other sites all over the Nazi empire. Further, they had some buildings prominently marked as hospital spaces. Bombing hospitals was right out, and the Nazis didn’t abuse that sanctuary privilege – there are all kinds of legacy of honorable conduct in the midst of the Nazi shit.
So based on the evidence available and informed interpretation, they would not have been bombed.
More broadly, it is – as I understand it – that the kind of strategic bombing was involved in significantly weakened Nazi commitment to and ability to continue fighting. It was just too damned inaccurate. When I got to hear Freeman Dyson talk a few years after Dad’s difficult discovery, he felt that the war effort would have been better served by abandoning it entirely, except that that was psychologically impossible for a state in Britain’s condition.
Granting here that he was way over on the “let’s not do war” side, but from what I can tell from thoroughly unsystematic research, there’s no very solid evidence for an argument that strategic bombing produced results to get anywhere close to its costs. Simply destroying stuff and people en masse in zip codes somewhere near actual strategic targets doesn’t impair war making a lot, and there’s a point where “but it’s all we can do” is not a sufficient moral argument.
I want to come back to strategic bombing for a sec:
He concluded: “in the last spring of the war I could no longer find any excuses.”
I can help him with his problem: Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Treblinka, Chlemno, Dauchau, to name a few.
I have a family interest in this. Dad learned in the 1980s, when reading about then-recently declassified aerial photos of Auschwitz and other camps, that some of them had been taken by the 7th Photo Reconnaissance Wing of P-38s, to which he’d belonged. Some work with his log books suggests but does not make it possible to establish for sure that he took some of the photos in question.
This troubled him. A lot. The idea that he helped gather information which could have led to an identification of the camps as what they were and that wasn’t acted on until ground troops hit the scene was not a comfortable one. So he poked at it further, and we talked about it as he went.
This is what he settled on. It’s not readily apparent from purely aerial data that the camps were for mass extermination. A likelier interpretation would have been that they were factories running on slave labor, which is ghastly evil but not unlike a bunch of other sites all over the Nazi empire. Further, they had some buildings prominently marked as hospital spaces. Bombing hospitals was right out, and the Nazis didn’t abuse that sanctuary privilege – there are all kinds of legacy of honorable conduct in the midst of the Nazi shit.
So based on the evidence available and informed interpretation, they would not have been bombed.
More broadly, it is – as I understand it – that the kind of strategic bombing was involved in significantly weakened Nazi commitment to and ability to continue fighting. It was just too damned inaccurate. When I got to hear Freeman Dyson talk a few years after Dad’s difficult discovery, he felt that the war effort would have been better served by abandoning it entirely, except that that was psychologically impossible for a state in Britain’s condition.
Granting here that he was way over on the “let’s not do war” side, but from what I can tell from thoroughly unsystematic research, there’s no very solid evidence for an argument that strategic bombing produced results to get anywhere close to its costs. Simply destroying stuff and people en masse in zip codes somewhere near actual strategic targets doesn’t impair war making a lot, and there’s a point where “but it’s all we can do” is not a sufficient moral argument.
Of course, one can still find the opinion in certain circles that the problem was that the terror limited itself to fire and steel leaving out plague and poison (both were available to the major combatants).
I assume, those guys also subscribe to ‘what use are nukes, if one can’t use them?’.
As for the camps, as far as I know the only thing seriously called for (by infiltrators that got first hand news from the sites themselves) was bombing the transport infrastructure leading to them not the camps (except for precisely timed diversionary attacks that would enable mass breakouts).
In Britain that got discussed but in the end no action was taken (reasons are strongly disputed reaching from ‘too high a risk for the planes’ to ‘our own antisemites will rise hell if we divert ressources to save Jews’ to ‘the camps divert German ressources away from the front, so it would be militarily counterproductive’).
Of course, one can still find the opinion in certain circles that the problem was that the terror limited itself to fire and steel leaving out plague and poison (both were available to the major combatants).
I assume, those guys also subscribe to ‘what use are nukes, if one can’t use them?’.
As for the camps, as far as I know the only thing seriously called for (by infiltrators that got first hand news from the sites themselves) was bombing the transport infrastructure leading to them not the camps (except for precisely timed diversionary attacks that would enable mass breakouts).
In Britain that got discussed but in the end no action was taken (reasons are strongly disputed reaching from ‘too high a risk for the planes’ to ‘our own antisemites will rise hell if we divert ressources to save Jews’ to ‘the camps divert German ressources away from the front, so it would be militarily counterproductive’).
Excellent points, Bruce Baugh. Very interesting recollections by your Dad.
My late father-in-law flew 30-some missions over Europe, but I don’t recall him mentioning the Dresden missions. His ethos changed (he was a bombardier) on about the fourth mission when a piece of shrapnel opened up the sheet metal fuselage of the plane at his feet like a flower and the hot hunk of metal passed right by his testicles, his chin, and his nose, before exiting the roof of the plane.
He was 17, having lied when he signed up, and after that incident he was suddenly 30 going on 40 and he said to himself “those f*ckers are trying to kill me”, and he never experienced a single qualm about bombs away for the rest of the duration.
The permanent frostbite in his feet didn’t ameliorate his reasoning, nor did picking up the pieces of his cohorts on the runways when their damaged planes crash-landed on the returns.
Also, remember, Dyson was recounting what went through his mind in 1945, when he was still a relative pup.
Further, there is no evidence that Dyson had personal knowledge of the camps, but it would not surprise me if he did.
The Allies came round to strategic bombing of civilian targets after long debate in government and the military.
No, it was not moral.
As an aside, in the Dresden book I’m reading, of course Kurt Vonnegut is given some paragraphs. I haven’t read “Slaughterhouse Five” for at least 50 years, and we know that he was a prisoner of war housed in a abattoir.
What I did not know was that he survived the bombing because as the German sirens sounded before the first round, he and his fellows were ushered deep underground via an iron staircase through rock into a meat locker, also encased in thick ironwork and kept cool merely by its depth underground.
He sat there among the hanging carcasses, like a second tier Mafioso awaiting the meat hook, while his captors returned above ground to be wiped off the face of the Earth by fire from the sky, which was not their first concern.
Instead, they were scared poopless by the more than rumored Russian Army closing in from the East, their bayonets mounted and their rape kits ready for action.
All of it was horrific and inhuman. Nothing good can be said except that is over.
After I finish the Dresden book, I’m going to start Victor Klemperer’s “The Language of The Third Reich” and then move on to his diaries.
Klemperer and his wife survived the war as residents of Dresden, incredibly, from the start of SS the crackdown on the Jewish population and right through the bombing.
In fact, after the bombing, they returned to their home, which was still standing, and collapsed in their bed covered in glass and plaster.
Some of the details of Klemperer’s and other witnesses’ description of the SS’ and the Dresden Gauleiter behavior at times reminded me of the current inhumanity to man by predatory wolves.
The name that comes to mind is Stephen Miller, the facts of whom (irony is not a word any longer in this f*cked up world of the inhumane American conservative movement) are criminal and will be avenged.
It is no wonder that Trump kept a copy of “My New Order”, Hitler’s sequel to Mein Kampf, mostly consisting of speeches, on his bedside table at some points.
He moves his lips as he follows the sentences with his index finger and occasionally has to ask Melania: “I’m a poisonous lout, but tell me again what an umlaut is?”
Excellent points, Bruce Baugh. Very interesting recollections by your Dad.
My late father-in-law flew 30-some missions over Europe, but I don’t recall him mentioning the Dresden missions. His ethos changed (he was a bombardier) on about the fourth mission when a piece of shrapnel opened up the sheet metal fuselage of the plane at his feet like a flower and the hot hunk of metal passed right by his testicles, his chin, and his nose, before exiting the roof of the plane.
He was 17, having lied when he signed up, and after that incident he was suddenly 30 going on 40 and he said to himself “those f*ckers are trying to kill me”, and he never experienced a single qualm about bombs away for the rest of the duration.
The permanent frostbite in his feet didn’t ameliorate his reasoning, nor did picking up the pieces of his cohorts on the runways when their damaged planes crash-landed on the returns.
Also, remember, Dyson was recounting what went through his mind in 1945, when he was still a relative pup.
Further, there is no evidence that Dyson had personal knowledge of the camps, but it would not surprise me if he did.
The Allies came round to strategic bombing of civilian targets after long debate in government and the military.
No, it was not moral.
As an aside, in the Dresden book I’m reading, of course Kurt Vonnegut is given some paragraphs. I haven’t read “Slaughterhouse Five” for at least 50 years, and we know that he was a prisoner of war housed in a abattoir.
What I did not know was that he survived the bombing because as the German sirens sounded before the first round, he and his fellows were ushered deep underground via an iron staircase through rock into a meat locker, also encased in thick ironwork and kept cool merely by its depth underground.
He sat there among the hanging carcasses, like a second tier Mafioso awaiting the meat hook, while his captors returned above ground to be wiped off the face of the Earth by fire from the sky, which was not their first concern.
Instead, they were scared poopless by the more than rumored Russian Army closing in from the East, their bayonets mounted and their rape kits ready for action.
All of it was horrific and inhuman. Nothing good can be said except that is over.
After I finish the Dresden book, I’m going to start Victor Klemperer’s “The Language of The Third Reich” and then move on to his diaries.
Klemperer and his wife survived the war as residents of Dresden, incredibly, from the start of SS the crackdown on the Jewish population and right through the bombing.
In fact, after the bombing, they returned to their home, which was still standing, and collapsed in their bed covered in glass and plaster.
Some of the details of Klemperer’s and other witnesses’ description of the SS’ and the Dresden Gauleiter behavior at times reminded me of the current inhumanity to man by predatory wolves.
The name that comes to mind is Stephen Miller, the facts of whom (irony is not a word any longer in this f*cked up world of the inhumane American conservative movement) are criminal and will be avenged.
It is no wonder that Trump kept a copy of “My New Order”, Hitler’s sequel to Mein Kampf, mostly consisting of speeches, on his bedside table at some points.
He moves his lips as he follows the sentences with his index finger and occasionally has to ask Melania: “I’m a poisonous lout, but tell me again what an umlaut is?”
The Allies came round to strategic bombing of civilian targets after long debate in government and the military.
I was under the impression that what you are talking about (e.g. stuff like Dresden) was called “carpet bombing”. And “strategic bombing” meant bombing specific** stuff (weapons factories, transport infrastructure) away from the immediate battlefield. That is, “strategic” as opposed to “tactical”.
** The importance of the Norden bombsight was that it allowed accurately hitting specific targets, rather than “wasting” bombs on other stuff. I seem to recall that the US did that kind of bombing, while the Brits did carpet bombing, exactly because we had that kind of bombsight.
The Allies came round to strategic bombing of civilian targets after long debate in government and the military.
I was under the impression that what you are talking about (e.g. stuff like Dresden) was called “carpet bombing”. And “strategic bombing” meant bombing specific** stuff (weapons factories, transport infrastructure) away from the immediate battlefield. That is, “strategic” as opposed to “tactical”.
** The importance of the Norden bombsight was that it allowed accurately hitting specific targets, rather than “wasting” bombs on other stuff. I seem to recall that the US did that kind of bombing, while the Brits did carpet bombing, exactly because we had that kind of bombsight.
I guess I’m using the term to describe the decision that was by the Allies to bomb civilian targets as a strategy to punish and bring the Third Reich to its knees.
I guess I’m using the term to describe the decision that was by the Allies to bomb civilian targets as a strategy to punish and bring the Third Reich to its knees.
This afternoon, Trump lauds the job he is doing fighting Covid-19. Awards himself with left hand, and accepts with right hand, the Nobel Prize:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTJI9fNudnQ
This afternoon, Trump lauds the job he is doing fighting Covid-19. Awards himself with left hand, and accepts with right hand, the Nobel Prize:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTJI9fNudnQ
The Scalias never skip a generation when murdering American citizens:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/04/eugene-scalia-is-doing-his-best-to-gut-the-coronavirus-rescue-bill/
Republican Governor of Florida sucks own cock while sending infected kids back to school to murder teachers, because, he says, the latter get paid during the summer while not working, thus they deserve it.
Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick sez, “Gimme some of that, because grandma promises to die for my stock portfolio. Talk to the mask.”
https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/coronavirus/2020/04/10/ongoing-coronavirus-reporting
The Scalias never skip a generation when murdering American citizens:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/04/eugene-scalia-is-doing-his-best-to-gut-the-coronavirus-rescue-bill/
Republican Governor of Florida sucks own cock while sending infected kids back to school to murder teachers, because, he says, the latter get paid during the summer while not working, thus they deserve it.
Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick sez, “Gimme some of that, because grandma promises to die for my stock portfolio. Talk to the mask.”
https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/coronavirus/2020/04/10/ongoing-coronavirus-reporting
The Brits did carpet bombing to a degree because they were forced to go in at night when the losses during daytime became untenable (and H2S radar was not yet available). And the precision of the Norden bombsight was imo extremly overhyped.
I think a lot was simply mentally rationalized for (seeming) lack of alternatives.
The Brits did carpet bombing to a degree because they were forced to go in at night when the losses during daytime became untenable (and H2S radar was not yet available). And the precision of the Norden bombsight was imo extremly overhyped.
I think a lot was simply mentally rationalized for (seeming) lack of alternatives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
“316 B-17 Flying Fortresses bombed Dresden, dropping 771 tons of bombs.[64][65] The remaining 115 bombers from the stream of 431 misidentified their targets.”
In the “Schrekensnacht” (Night of Horror) chapter of Sinclair McKay’s “The Fire and the Darkness, he notes that there were reports that bomber crews were purposely offloading their ordnance into the North Sea even before they reached Dresden.
Further, a fairly notorious English bombardier by the name of Miles Tripp, using his command override of the pilot as targets came under his aiming purview, would navigate the plane to the outskirts of Dresden and drop their ordnance in open fields, though the aiming was so haphazard that the author speculates that humans in the suburbs were probably blown to kingdom come as well.
Whether Tripp was engaged in a moral act of empathy or was merely using his judgement that the firestorm raging below was already so devastating that pouring gasoline on the inferno would be tactically pointless is unclear.
By the way, the eyewitness descriptions of the sheer horror and danger these B-17 crews endured, not only on the bombing runs, but on the way back to their bases, in many barely limping in and crashing in balls of fire are the most chilling depictions, because McKay is such a fine writer, I’ve read in World War II airborne histories.
Of course, the horror on the ground far exceeded that in the air.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
“316 B-17 Flying Fortresses bombed Dresden, dropping 771 tons of bombs.[64][65] The remaining 115 bombers from the stream of 431 misidentified their targets.”
In the “Schrekensnacht” (Night of Horror) chapter of Sinclair McKay’s “The Fire and the Darkness, he notes that there were reports that bomber crews were purposely offloading their ordnance into the North Sea even before they reached Dresden.
Further, a fairly notorious English bombardier by the name of Miles Tripp, using his command override of the pilot as targets came under his aiming purview, would navigate the plane to the outskirts of Dresden and drop their ordnance in open fields, though the aiming was so haphazard that the author speculates that humans in the suburbs were probably blown to kingdom come as well.
Whether Tripp was engaged in a moral act of empathy or was merely using his judgement that the firestorm raging below was already so devastating that pouring gasoline on the inferno would be tactically pointless is unclear.
By the way, the eyewitness descriptions of the sheer horror and danger these B-17 crews endured, not only on the bombing runs, but on the way back to their bases, in many barely limping in and crashing in balls of fire are the most chilling depictions, because McKay is such a fine writer, I’ve read in World War II airborne histories.
Of course, the horror on the ground far exceeded that in the air.
The controversy about the role of Bomber Command in this was such that the memorial to them was only built and opened in 2012.
The Wikipedia article on it is here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command_Memorial
The first para gives an idea:
The controversy over the tactics employed by RAF Bomber Command during the Second World War meant that an official memorial to the aircrews had been delayed for many years. Despite describing bombers as “the means of victory” in 1940, British prime minister Winston Churchill did not mention Bomber Command in his speech at the end of the war.
The controversy about the role of Bomber Command in this was such that the memorial to them was only built and opened in 2012.
The Wikipedia article on it is here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command_Memorial
The first para gives an idea:
The controversy over the tactics employed by RAF Bomber Command during the Second World War meant that an official memorial to the aircrews had been delayed for many years. Despite describing bombers as “the means of victory” in 1940, British prime minister Winston Churchill did not mention Bomber Command in his speech at the end of the war.
Didn’t the controversial character of ‘Bomber’ Harris play a role in that? I remember that the memorial being or including a statue of Harris was the main point of protest.
Film portrayals of Harris seem to be more of the friendly kind (friendly towards him, not claiming that he was particularly friendly).
Didn’t the controversial character of ‘Bomber’ Harris play a role in that? I remember that the memorial being or including a statue of Harris was the main point of protest.
Film portrayals of Harris seem to be more of the friendly kind (friendly towards him, not claiming that he was particularly friendly).
Edit: The statue of Harris controversy was much earlier, I think in the late 80ies.
Edit: The statue of Harris controversy was much earlier, I think in the late 80ies.
Of course the military is not the only group struggling with two masters. (Or at least one schizophrenic master.) Now the White House is denouncing . . . Voice of America! Claims it was pro-Chinese and repeating Chinese propaganda about the coronavirus. Never mind that Trump has spent a lot of weeks praising China for how it has dealt with the virus.
Of course, if you are a news organization that cares about objective reporting (i.e. not Fox News), you aren’t going to praise Trump enough to suit him. But still, to claim a US government operation is pro-Chinese. The mind boggles.
Of course the military is not the only group struggling with two masters. (Or at least one schizophrenic master.) Now the White House is denouncing . . . Voice of America! Claims it was pro-Chinese and repeating Chinese propaganda about the coronavirus. Never mind that Trump has spent a lot of weeks praising China for how it has dealt with the virus.
Of course, if you are a news organization that cares about objective reporting (i.e. not Fox News), you aren’t going to praise Trump enough to suit him. But still, to claim a US government operation is pro-Chinese. The mind boggles.
Whatever WHO learns about this phenomenon, good or bad, they should not share any of the findings with vermin subhuman republican America.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/world-health-organization-investigate-cured-coronavirus-patients-test-positive-again-who
Whatever WHO learns about this phenomenon, good or bad, they should not share any of the findings with vermin subhuman republican America.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/world-health-organization-investigate-cured-coronavirus-patients-test-positive-again-who
Two murderous republican shits, are there any other kind, themselves vectors of a deadly disease and who deliberately tried to infect, assassinate, yes, assassinate, via Covid-19, high-placed members of the US Government, but in a politically correct bipartisan fashion, including coughing into Mitt Romney’s beef stew, whine about their humane Democratic Governor attempting to save the lives of a bunch of fake Christians, themselves vying to contract the disease and infect their fellow Americans with death.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/10/1936353/-Kentucky-Governor-Beshear-To-Quarantine-Churchgoers-Guess-Who-Throws-Hissy-Fits?utm_campaign=trending
Paul and Massie, the perfect definition of rabid, diseased dogs coming at ya slavering, who require the ultimate treatment.
EVIL all the way down.
Two murderous republican shits, are there any other kind, themselves vectors of a deadly disease and who deliberately tried to infect, assassinate, yes, assassinate, via Covid-19, high-placed members of the US Government, but in a politically correct bipartisan fashion, including coughing into Mitt Romney’s beef stew, whine about their humane Democratic Governor attempting to save the lives of a bunch of fake Christians, themselves vying to contract the disease and infect their fellow Americans with death.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/10/1936353/-Kentucky-Governor-Beshear-To-Quarantine-Churchgoers-Guess-Who-Throws-Hissy-Fits?utm_campaign=trending
Paul and Massie, the perfect definition of rabid, diseased dogs coming at ya slavering, who require the ultimate treatment.
EVIL all the way down.
Paul Gigot is trying to fit this tweet up his guilty republican ass.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/10/1936138/-Trump-responds-to-Wall-Street-Journal-criticism-of-his-daily-clown-show-briefings?utm_campaign=trending
I wouldn’t approach The Beast you put in power, Gigot and begged for tax cuts from:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjrBjdb2T8
Paul Gigot is trying to fit this tweet up his guilty republican ass.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/10/1936138/-Trump-responds-to-Wall-Street-Journal-criticism-of-his-daily-clown-show-briefings?utm_campaign=trending
I wouldn’t approach The Beast you put in power, Gigot and begged for tax cuts from:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjrBjdb2T8
BoJo on release from hospital, in which he admits he almost died:
Our NHS is the beating heart of this country.
I guess it took almost dying to make him realise it, but at least he has realised it.
BoJo on release from hospital, in which he admits he almost died:
Our NHS is the beating heart of this country.
I guess it took almost dying to make him realise it, but at least he has realised it.
Socialized single payer medicine saved the Prime Minister of England’s life.
I hope all other English citizens get the same level of care that Boris Johnson did, though the really odd thing about conservatives is that they can even make socialism into a trickle down scheme with those on the bottom getting a drip now and then.
I’ll hold my breath waiting for some acknowledgement on these pages from the usual suspects regarding this victory, especially those who agree with Johnson’s Brexit catastrophe and are happy he has survived to destroy European economic unity.
Must go wash my hands.
Socialized single payer medicine saved the Prime Minister of England’s life.
I hope all other English citizens get the same level of care that Boris Johnson did, though the really odd thing about conservatives is that they can even make socialism into a trickle down scheme with those on the bottom getting a drip now and then.
I’ll hold my breath waiting for some acknowledgement on these pages from the usual suspects regarding this victory, especially those who agree with Johnson’s Brexit catastrophe and are happy he has survived to destroy European economic unity.
Must go wash my hands.
a FB friend noted that the two nurses that BoJo thanked were foreign (one from NZ, the other from Portugal) Hope someone reminds him of that every god damn day…
a FB friend noted that the two nurses that BoJo thanked were foreign (one from NZ, the other from Portugal) Hope someone reminds him of that every god damn day…
My sense is that BoJo is basically a xenophobe of convenience. So he wouldn’t need reminding personally.
What he needs is a change of view by the folks he’s pandering to. Which seems more of a stretch.
My sense is that BoJo is basically a xenophobe of convenience. So he wouldn’t need reminding personally.
What he needs is a change of view by the folks he’s pandering to. Which seems more of a stretch.
some acknowledgement on these pages from the usual suspects
Speaking of the usual suspects, there was a great post and discussion on LGM regarding the Post Office, and Republicans’ desire to destroy it. For the life of me, I just don’t get it.
some acknowledgement on these pages from the usual suspects
Speaking of the usual suspects, there was a great post and discussion on LGM regarding the Post Office, and Republicans’ desire to destroy it. For the life of me, I just don’t get it.
For the life of me, I just don’t get it.
I think it’s pretty simple, actually. Assume, for the sake of discussion, that (Federal) government is bad, and you want to convince people of that. The worst possible circumstance for your argument is a piece of the Federal government that people interact with constantly, which gets the job done, and has no obvious downside (as opposed to the other Federal agency people all interact with: the IRS).
So it becomes urgent to get rid of that highly visible, and working, piece of Federal government. Slash the budget, force service cuts, etc., etc., etc.
For the life of me, I just don’t get it.
I think it’s pretty simple, actually. Assume, for the sake of discussion, that (Federal) government is bad, and you want to convince people of that. The worst possible circumstance for your argument is a piece of the Federal government that people interact with constantly, which gets the job done, and has no obvious downside (as opposed to the other Federal agency people all interact with: the IRS).
So it becomes urgent to get rid of that highly visible, and working, piece of Federal government. Slash the budget, force service cuts, etc., etc., etc.
I will post tomorrow on what to get about the Post Office defunding.
LGM, surprisingly, is only 40 % right about the sinister, malignant reasons why the Post Office will be out of business or severely hobbled come election time, should that time actually come in fascist republican america.
I will post tomorrow on what to get about the Post Office defunding.
LGM, surprisingly, is only 40 % right about the sinister, malignant reasons why the Post Office will be out of business or severely hobbled come election time, should that time actually come in fascist republican america.
So it becomes urgent to get rid of that highly visible, and working, piece of Federal government.
You’re picking a low bar.
“Potential Privatization
The Postal Service could do more to address its shortfalls, but options are limited because, as part of the U.S. government, Congress sets the rates it may charge for its services and requires the agency to operate less efficiently than it is capable, often in response to political pressure to sustain numerous money-losing operations around the country.
Those restrictions may loosen as early as this year, as policymakers consider privatizing some parts of the Postal Service’s operations. Fortune‘s Nicole Goodkind explains:
Can the US Post Office Break Its 13-Year Losing Streak?: Becoming more independent of the U.S. government will be critical to its success.
So it becomes urgent to get rid of that highly visible, and working, piece of Federal government.
You’re picking a low bar.
“Potential Privatization
The Postal Service could do more to address its shortfalls, but options are limited because, as part of the U.S. government, Congress sets the rates it may charge for its services and requires the agency to operate less efficiently than it is capable, often in response to political pressure to sustain numerous money-losing operations around the country.
Those restrictions may loosen as early as this year, as policymakers consider privatizing some parts of the Postal Service’s operations. Fortune‘s Nicole Goodkind explains:
Can the US Post Office Break Its 13-Year Losing Streak?: Becoming more independent of the U.S. government will be critical to its success.
Dont hold your breath. I’m sure he appreciates the care, I had a heart attack in Canafa and they saved my life, just like they would here.
Health care workers are amazing and deserve immense respect. How we pay for their services diesnt change that. If I walked out of the hospital and said Our health care system is the backbone of our country, which it is, no one would be rushing to disband the NHS.
The PM got good health care, who would have figured that?
However, I dont get the issue with the USPS, Breaking something that works and is necessary is pretty foolish. See employer based insurance.
Dont hold your breath. I’m sure he appreciates the care, I had a heart attack in Canafa and they saved my life, just like they would here.
Health care workers are amazing and deserve immense respect. How we pay for their services diesnt change that. If I walked out of the hospital and said Our health care system is the backbone of our country, which it is, no one would be rushing to disband the NHS.
The PM got good health care, who would have figured that?
However, I dont get the issue with the USPS, Breaking something that works and is necessary is pretty foolish. See employer based insurance.
Marty, Canada? I think that while they are related, the Canadian and UK health systems are different.
And I don’t understand the phrase
If I walked out of the hospital and said Our health care system is the backbone of our country
Would you say that the current US system is the backbone of the country? If so, why? Or are you just saying that the PM is saying this because he had a brush with death and doesn’t really know what he is saying?
Marty, Canada? I think that while they are related, the Canadian and UK health systems are different.
And I don’t understand the phrase
If I walked out of the hospital and said Our health care system is the backbone of our country
Would you say that the current US system is the backbone of the country? If so, why? Or are you just saying that the PM is saying this because he had a brush with death and doesn’t really know what he is saying?
I’m saying he had a brush with death and he was recognizing the excellent health care workers that saved his life. NHS was shorthand for all those dedicated people. I suspect it wasnt a political statement.
I’m saying he had a brush with death and he was recognizing the excellent health care workers that saved his life. NHS was shorthand for all those dedicated people. I suspect it wasnt a political statement.
Marty, your interpretation is very understandable, because you aren’t English. This is a very subtle example of two peoples divided not by a common language, but by a different culture or even, in this case, a different mythology/religion.
The entity referred to as the NHS in this country is more akin to a religion than anything else. I would say that an affection or fierce regard for the NHS, and to a much lesser extent (to my regret) the BBC, is one of the few things that is shared by almost everyone here. The mantra “free at the point of delivery” is regarded as sacrosanct. The leaflet that was sent out to the population, at its establishment in 1948 said this:
Everyone – rich or poor, man, woman or child – can use it or any part of it. There are no charges, except for a few items. There are no insurance qualifications. But it is not a “charity”. You are all paying for it, mainly as taxpayers, and it will relieve your money worries in time of illness’
And so it has remained. This totemic attachment to the NHS explains the outrage that greeted Jackass’s (and his idiot Ambassador’s) statement that of course the NHS would be “on the table” in any trade talks. People didn’t know exactly what it meant, but they knew enough about the USA’s health system to know they wanted no possible variant of it to be under consideration here.
The point of what BoJo said, and the man I quoted the other day who said (absolutely intending its Churchillian echoes) that the creation of the NHS was this nation’s finest hour, and that the staff were the equivalent of the 1940s spitfire pilots (Churchills “few”), is that both these men are very clearly rich and upper class. Totemic feeling for the NHS, and its founding principles, cuts across wealth and class in this country.
This was very definitely a political statement. Let’s hope, in BoJo’s case, its sincerity lasts.
Marty, your interpretation is very understandable, because you aren’t English. This is a very subtle example of two peoples divided not by a common language, but by a different culture or even, in this case, a different mythology/religion.
The entity referred to as the NHS in this country is more akin to a religion than anything else. I would say that an affection or fierce regard for the NHS, and to a much lesser extent (to my regret) the BBC, is one of the few things that is shared by almost everyone here. The mantra “free at the point of delivery” is regarded as sacrosanct. The leaflet that was sent out to the population, at its establishment in 1948 said this:
Everyone – rich or poor, man, woman or child – can use it or any part of it. There are no charges, except for a few items. There are no insurance qualifications. But it is not a “charity”. You are all paying for it, mainly as taxpayers, and it will relieve your money worries in time of illness’
And so it has remained. This totemic attachment to the NHS explains the outrage that greeted Jackass’s (and his idiot Ambassador’s) statement that of course the NHS would be “on the table” in any trade talks. People didn’t know exactly what it meant, but they knew enough about the USA’s health system to know they wanted no possible variant of it to be under consideration here.
The point of what BoJo said, and the man I quoted the other day who said (absolutely intending its Churchillian echoes) that the creation of the NHS was this nation’s finest hour, and that the staff were the equivalent of the 1940s spitfire pilots (Churchills “few”), is that both these men are very clearly rich and upper class. Totemic feeling for the NHS, and its founding principles, cuts across wealth and class in this country.
This was very definitely a political statement. Let’s hope, in BoJo’s case, its sincerity lasts.
p.s. BoJo didn’t say it was the backbone of this country. He said it was its beating heart. I trust you can see the difference, in the context of what I have explained.
p.s. BoJo didn’t say it was the backbone of this country. He said it was its beating heart. I trust you can see the difference, in the context of what I have explained.
I can never tell which Marty is posting.
There are so many of them. The Martys are legion.
I like a few of them.
They contain platitudes.
“NHS was shorthand for all those dedicated people.”
Actually, it was longhand.
All of the underfunded people at NHS are dedicated. Just as all attempting to destroy the NHS are dedicated to their malign, murderous goals.
The former ARE the Deep State.
Long live the Deep State.
The latter happen to have just barely lived thru the worldwide contagion, saved by the deep state government they’ve despised and spat upon for four decades, going on forever.
The latters’ conversions are suspect, at best. I suspect they are serial offenders who should not be allowed to walk the streets once again after this parole, the scars of the pestilence still evident on their persons.
It’s hard to tell at the moment whether the scars will be conversionary and thus salutary to humane governance or merely the Evil mark of the criminally double-downed conservative scarfaces yet again avoiding their ultimate fates to kill again.
In November, if the election is not stolen or canceled by the fascist Trump Republican Party, the conservative thieving corrupt malignant deep state now infesting and ruining the government of the United States of America, will be purged, individual by individual, desk by desk, department by department.
They can walk out the front door of their own volition and submit to quarantining themselves from infesting my government for the rest of their lives, or they can leave by the back door feet first.
I’m pro-choice in that department.
Think for a moment what the transition after the November election will look like, if by some miracle the election is not stolen by the highly effective, organized and evil republican party, just now undergoing a dress rehearsal in Wisconsin for the cheating re-election of Ferdinand Marcos, Vlad Putin, and similar vermin.
Remember the last civilized transition of power in 2016?
There wasn’t one.
This time around, the new folks will find all computer files wiped, all paper files in ashes and/or missing, all department funds transferred to anonymous offshore bank accounts, as government is finally run like a private business, much like the Mafia picks up garbage, all federal warehouses once filled with life-saving equipment now empty, the now “privatized” contents whisked away in unmarked truck caravans to unmarked warehouses, the anonymous new owners’ names missing even from the bearer bonds, on the outskirts of American cities suffering from devastated, bankrupt hospitals and other institutions desperately trying to pay back “loans” to the scores of predatory anonymous Mnuchins and Kushners.
The Trump name will not appear. It never does.
Because the Donald is smarter and dumber and bulletproof from all justice, and will continue as such after being hauled out of his legal hidey hole (a legal confection crafted by Barr, Kavanaugh and the corrupt, venal federal judiciary) called .. the Presidency.
He and his corrupt spawn will saunter off like Hannibal Lechter, except their gustatory tastes run more to human offal, rather than the fleshy bits of their victims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbJ89LFheTs
Really, tens of thousands of determined, ruthless bounty hunters with wide-open purviews regarding the means of savage justice to be applied to their criminal prey will be required to serve the public interest and remove the republican contagion eternally from America, and the world.
But don’t worry, conservatives, with your help, Trump will win in a fake landslide in November and you can continue fucking America like humping rabid dogs.
Damn John Jay.*
But to make sure, fill his dead mouth with salt.
*John Jay, were he living today, would call for the violent overthrow of the Trump Republican government, so his mention here is so much fun figurative rather than literal translation of what’s coming in reality show America, which for once, will be real.
I can never tell which Marty is posting.
There are so many of them. The Martys are legion.
I like a few of them.
They contain platitudes.
“NHS was shorthand for all those dedicated people.”
Actually, it was longhand.
All of the underfunded people at NHS are dedicated. Just as all attempting to destroy the NHS are dedicated to their malign, murderous goals.
The former ARE the Deep State.
Long live the Deep State.
The latter happen to have just barely lived thru the worldwide contagion, saved by the deep state government they’ve despised and spat upon for four decades, going on forever.
The latters’ conversions are suspect, at best. I suspect they are serial offenders who should not be allowed to walk the streets once again after this parole, the scars of the pestilence still evident on their persons.
It’s hard to tell at the moment whether the scars will be conversionary and thus salutary to humane governance or merely the Evil mark of the criminally double-downed conservative scarfaces yet again avoiding their ultimate fates to kill again.
In November, if the election is not stolen or canceled by the fascist Trump Republican Party, the conservative thieving corrupt malignant deep state now infesting and ruining the government of the United States of America, will be purged, individual by individual, desk by desk, department by department.
They can walk out the front door of their own volition and submit to quarantining themselves from infesting my government for the rest of their lives, or they can leave by the back door feet first.
I’m pro-choice in that department.
Think for a moment what the transition after the November election will look like, if by some miracle the election is not stolen by the highly effective, organized and evil republican party, just now undergoing a dress rehearsal in Wisconsin for the cheating re-election of Ferdinand Marcos, Vlad Putin, and similar vermin.
Remember the last civilized transition of power in 2016?
There wasn’t one.
This time around, the new folks will find all computer files wiped, all paper files in ashes and/or missing, all department funds transferred to anonymous offshore bank accounts, as government is finally run like a private business, much like the Mafia picks up garbage, all federal warehouses once filled with life-saving equipment now empty, the now “privatized” contents whisked away in unmarked truck caravans to unmarked warehouses, the anonymous new owners’ names missing even from the bearer bonds, on the outskirts of American cities suffering from devastated, bankrupt hospitals and other institutions desperately trying to pay back “loans” to the scores of predatory anonymous Mnuchins and Kushners.
The Trump name will not appear. It never does.
Because the Donald is smarter and dumber and bulletproof from all justice, and will continue as such after being hauled out of his legal hidey hole (a legal confection crafted by Barr, Kavanaugh and the corrupt, venal federal judiciary) called .. the Presidency.
He and his corrupt spawn will saunter off like Hannibal Lechter, except their gustatory tastes run more to human offal, rather than the fleshy bits of their victims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbJ89LFheTs
Really, tens of thousands of determined, ruthless bounty hunters with wide-open purviews regarding the means of savage justice to be applied to their criminal prey will be required to serve the public interest and remove the republican contagion eternally from America, and the world.
But don’t worry, conservatives, with your help, Trump will win in a fake landslide in November and you can continue fucking America like humping rabid dogs.
Damn John Jay.*
But to make sure, fill his dead mouth with salt.
*John Jay, were he living today, would call for the violent overthrow of the Trump Republican government, so his mention here is so much fun figurative rather than literal translation of what’s coming in reality show America, which for once, will be real.
GftNC,
I guess I dont understand, backbone/ beating heart, for him the care is important but he gets that care no matter whether its owned by the government, single payer or paid by insurance companies.
The difference in the UK, I suppose, is that the health care workers actually work for the government. The health care system is not the same as who pays for it. The US healthcare system is pretty awesome, the access to it needs some work.
GftNC,
I guess I dont understand, backbone/ beating heart, for him the care is important but he gets that care no matter whether its owned by the government, single payer or paid by insurance companies.
The difference in the UK, I suppose, is that the health care workers actually work for the government. The health care system is not the same as who pays for it. The US healthcare system is pretty awesome, the access to it needs some work.
So I see that in my rush to post, what I neglected to say was this. Although everything I said was true, the rich and rightwing who often use private medicine (fancier consultation rooms, more choice in who you see, hotel-style hospital rooms for elective procedures) can be lulled into forgetting what the NHS means to the vast majority in this country, and can flirt with ideas to introduce more profit-based elements into it. But when they do so, they forget about a) the NHS’s symbolic and emotional significance to the population, and b) their own reliance on it when the chips are truly down- because all emergency medicine in the UK is NHS. You saw this with David Cameron and his very badly disabled child, and you see it with BoJo and his recovery from Covid-19. Even die-hard, privatising Tories, when they have to interact much with the NHS, are brought face to face with what it means not just to the rest of the country, but also to them. And then that experience often segues into something almost mystical – BoJo: “It is powered by love.”
So I see that in my rush to post, what I neglected to say was this. Although everything I said was true, the rich and rightwing who often use private medicine (fancier consultation rooms, more choice in who you see, hotel-style hospital rooms for elective procedures) can be lulled into forgetting what the NHS means to the vast majority in this country, and can flirt with ideas to introduce more profit-based elements into it. But when they do so, they forget about a) the NHS’s symbolic and emotional significance to the population, and b) their own reliance on it when the chips are truly down- because all emergency medicine in the UK is NHS. You saw this with David Cameron and his very badly disabled child, and you see it with BoJo and his recovery from Covid-19. Even die-hard, privatising Tories, when they have to interact much with the NHS, are brought face to face with what it means not just to the rest of the country, but also to them. And then that experience often segues into something almost mystical – BoJo: “It is powered by love.”
I guess I dont understand
You should have stopped right there.
Instead you went right on digging.
GftNC, thanks for explaining with such eloquence.
I guess I dont understand
You should have stopped right there.
Instead you went right on digging.
GftNC, thanks for explaining with such eloquence.
I guess I dont understand, backbone/ beating heart, for him the care is important but he gets that care no matter whether its owned by the government, single payer or paid by insurance companies.
There are two simultaneous categories of phenomenon going on in this country, regarding the NHS. The first is a purely practical system of trained professionals doing their jobs and getting paid a wage, along with ancillary workers like cleaners, cooks etc. In this one, the nurses aren’t paid enough, the various reorganisations that have taken place are management-heavy and have involved damaging upheavals, or improved efficiencies, variously. This is what you are talking about, Marty.
The second is a symbolic phenomenon, a willed joint creation of an entire population, who choose to believe that healthcare is a right in a civilised country, and that taxes should pay for this as they pay for other things which constitute the public good. This phenomenon implies a belief that healthcare professionals have a vocation, not a profit-motive, and that they put themselves in harm’s way in order to serve this vocation (and their fellow human beings). This second phenomenon, which you could also regard as a mass delusion if you were so minded, is what fuels the public attitude to the NHS that I was trying to explain.
And it is this second phenomenon which explains, for example, BoJo’s rhetoric: “It is this nation’s beating heart” “It is fuelled by love.” I think he believed it when he said it, and I hope he goes on believing it. But it may have been (or end up being) cynical: because he knows that this language speaks straight to what the British public feels about the NHS>
I guess I dont understand, backbone/ beating heart, for him the care is important but he gets that care no matter whether its owned by the government, single payer or paid by insurance companies.
There are two simultaneous categories of phenomenon going on in this country, regarding the NHS. The first is a purely practical system of trained professionals doing their jobs and getting paid a wage, along with ancillary workers like cleaners, cooks etc. In this one, the nurses aren’t paid enough, the various reorganisations that have taken place are management-heavy and have involved damaging upheavals, or improved efficiencies, variously. This is what you are talking about, Marty.
The second is a symbolic phenomenon, a willed joint creation of an entire population, who choose to believe that healthcare is a right in a civilised country, and that taxes should pay for this as they pay for other things which constitute the public good. This phenomenon implies a belief that healthcare professionals have a vocation, not a profit-motive, and that they put themselves in harm’s way in order to serve this vocation (and their fellow human beings). This second phenomenon, which you could also regard as a mass delusion if you were so minded, is what fuels the public attitude to the NHS that I was trying to explain.
And it is this second phenomenon which explains, for example, BoJo’s rhetoric: “It is this nation’s beating heart” “It is fuelled by love.” I think he believed it when he said it, and I hope he goes on believing it. But it may have been (or end up being) cynical: because he knows that this language speaks straight to what the British public feels about the NHS>
The US healthcare system is pretty awesome, the access to it needs some work.
Every public policy debate about healthcare in this country is exactly about access. Mostly how to make it possible for people to afford it, to a lesser degree how to increase the availability of it, at any price, in underserved areas.
So, you make the “progressive” point, here.
Regarding the NHS, I think Americans have lost, or perhaps never actually had, whatever instinct it is that gives concepts like “common good” resonance.
The US healthcare system is pretty awesome, the access to it needs some work.
Every public policy debate about healthcare in this country is exactly about access. Mostly how to make it possible for people to afford it, to a lesser degree how to increase the availability of it, at any price, in underserved areas.
So, you make the “progressive” point, here.
Regarding the NHS, I think Americans have lost, or perhaps never actually had, whatever instinct it is that gives concepts like “common good” resonance.
Regarding the NHS, I think Americans have lost, or perhaps never actually had, whatever instinct it is that gives concepts like “common good” resonance.
40% of Americans.
Regarding the NHS, I think Americans have lost, or perhaps never actually had, whatever instinct it is that gives concepts like “common good” resonance.
40% of Americans.
I wish we could learn it without going through the equivalent of the Battle of Britain….
The more likely path…I don’t want to contemplate at the moment.
I wish we could learn it without going through the equivalent of the Battle of Britain….
The more likely path…I don’t want to contemplate at the moment.
I have a consistent view on universal access to healthcare. Look it up.
Thanks GftNC. The symbolism is a phenomenon I can relate to but don’t fully appreciate, I’m sure. We have many arguments here in the US that ignore that aspect of American culture and history, or deride it.
I have a consistent view on universal access to healthcare. Look it up.
Thanks GftNC. The symbolism is a phenomenon I can relate to but don’t fully appreciate, I’m sure. We have many arguments here in the US that ignore that aspect of American culture and history, or deride it.
For all that we have wandered off into a cross-cultural discussion of health care systems, I thought the relevant part of BoJo’s comment that got us started was that the two people from NHS he was thanking were immigrants. And xenophobia was the beating heart of the Brexit platform he was elected on.
It’s a point on which the US and UK are alike. Both are critically dependent (although, I believe, the US moreso) on immigrants. And none more that the same people who are so loudly supporting those who are trying to get rid of them. If Stephen Miller ever succeeds in his quest to eject every illegal immigrant, he and the rest of us will starve. Because they are the ones who make the harvest possible. And the aging base of the GOP will discover that they (and their parents) are without the basic healthcare workers they depend on.
For all that we have wandered off into a cross-cultural discussion of health care systems, I thought the relevant part of BoJo’s comment that got us started was that the two people from NHS he was thanking were immigrants. And xenophobia was the beating heart of the Brexit platform he was elected on.
It’s a point on which the US and UK are alike. Both are critically dependent (although, I believe, the US moreso) on immigrants. And none more that the same people who are so loudly supporting those who are trying to get rid of them. If Stephen Miller ever succeeds in his quest to eject every illegal immigrant, he and the rest of us will starve. Because they are the ones who make the harvest possible. And the aging base of the GOP will discover that they (and their parents) are without the basic healthcare workers they depend on.
I have a consistent view on universal access to healthcare. Look it up.
Yes, I have noticed that it is undisturbed by facts. UK, US, Canafa. It’s all the same.
Now, South Korea, that’s different…
https://www.propublica.org/article/how-south-korea-scaled-coronavirus-testing-while-the-us-fell-dangerously-behind
I have a consistent view on universal access to healthcare. Look it up.
Yes, I have noticed that it is undisturbed by facts. UK, US, Canafa. It’s all the same.
Now, South Korea, that’s different…
https://www.propublica.org/article/how-south-korea-scaled-coronavirus-testing-while-the-us-fell-dangerously-behind
“As the COVID-19 spreads through the United States, the government has closed its borders to foreigners. Yet millions of immigrants already here are working every day to defeat the contagion or mitigate its economic effects. From cleaning away germs to developing cures for them to delivering needed supplies, immigrants are disproportionately engaged in the effort to defeat COVID-19. Indeed, immigrants are overrepresented in nearly every job that is critical during this pandemic.”
Immigrants Aid America During COVID-19 Crisis
“As the COVID-19 spreads through the United States, the government has closed its borders to foreigners. Yet millions of immigrants already here are working every day to defeat the contagion or mitigate its economic effects. From cleaning away germs to developing cures for them to delivering needed supplies, immigrants are disproportionately engaged in the effort to defeat COVID-19. Indeed, immigrants are overrepresented in nearly every job that is critical during this pandemic.”
Immigrants Aid America During COVID-19 Crisis
Right on, Charles.
Seriously.
And yet like previous fatal, murderous deportations during even more parlous times in history, World War II for example, our current malign, sadistic all-American villains are doubling down on deportations against those for whom it could also be fatal.
I thank each and every front line worker I encounter in grocery stores, public transport, and healthcare settings for taking the mortal risk of of being there for me, even though I could well be a vector for the disease.
I wish Victor Klemperer, Primo Levi, and Elie Wiesel, among others, were here to put their hands around Stephen Miller’s neck, among others, and strangle the living breath out of that sadist.
Unfortunately, it looks like I’m going to have to do it.
Right on, Charles.
Seriously.
And yet like previous fatal, murderous deportations during even more parlous times in history, World War II for example, our current malign, sadistic all-American villains are doubling down on deportations against those for whom it could also be fatal.
I thank each and every front line worker I encounter in grocery stores, public transport, and healthcare settings for taking the mortal risk of of being there for me, even though I could well be a vector for the disease.
I wish Victor Klemperer, Primo Levi, and Elie Wiesel, among others, were here to put their hands around Stephen Miller’s neck, among others, and strangle the living breath out of that sadist.
Unfortunately, it looks like I’m going to have to do it.
Something that either occurred to me or someone pointed out to me (can’t be sure now), well before this COVID-19 business, was the under-appreciated value of janitorial work. It would be nearly impossible, or so it seems to me, to calculate the costs, both human and financial, of the instances of illness prevented by the work of janitors.
Something that either occurred to me or someone pointed out to me (can’t be sure now), well before this COVID-19 business, was the under-appreciated value of janitorial work. It would be nearly impossible, or so it seems to me, to calculate the costs, both human and financial, of the instances of illness prevented by the work of janitors.
I thought the relevant part of BoJo’s comment that got us started was that the two people from NHS he was thanking were immigrants. And xenophobia was the beating heart of the Brexit platform he was elected on.
I don’t think this was the relevant part of his comment for most people, it was just a cheap and easy shot. Xenophobia may well have been the motive force of Brexit for most Brexiteers, but nobody ever thought that was the main thing for Boris. He is a racist, in the common-or-garden rather old-fashioned upper class English way (picanninies, letter boxes etc), but his attachment to Brexit was purely opportunistic. It may well be that the role of immigrants in the NHS enlightens some of the Brexiteers after the Covid epidemic, although it certainly didn’t seem to get through to them before when it was endlessly pointed out, but its effect on Boris is unlikely to be decisive. He is unprincipled and has achieved his lifelong aim of power, but perhaps his near-death experience will have some effect on him, at least when funding the NHS after the emergency.
I thought the relevant part of BoJo’s comment that got us started was that the two people from NHS he was thanking were immigrants. And xenophobia was the beating heart of the Brexit platform he was elected on.
I don’t think this was the relevant part of his comment for most people, it was just a cheap and easy shot. Xenophobia may well have been the motive force of Brexit for most Brexiteers, but nobody ever thought that was the main thing for Boris. He is a racist, in the common-or-garden rather old-fashioned upper class English way (picanninies, letter boxes etc), but his attachment to Brexit was purely opportunistic. It may well be that the role of immigrants in the NHS enlightens some of the Brexiteers after the Covid epidemic, although it certainly didn’t seem to get through to them before when it was endlessly pointed out, but its effect on Boris is unlikely to be decisive. He is unprincipled and has achieved his lifelong aim of power, but perhaps his near-death experience will have some effect on him, at least when funding the NHS after the emergency.
GftNC, I thought that’s what I was saying. But apparently not. Sorry
GftNC, I thought that’s what I was saying. But apparently not. Sorry
What’s the implication of “letter box” ??
What’s the implication of “letter box” ??
I think that Johnson referred to women wearing niqabs as looking like letterboxes.
I think that Johnson referred to women wearing niqabs as looking like letterboxes.
Regarding the heist of the U.S. Post Office (I’m still receiving bills, despite forwarding them to McKinney, although I’m in receipt of various mis-routed depositions from his law firm; those postal workers can’t do anything right), it has been reported that Trump threatened to veto the stimulus bill if the Post Office received emergency funding so that postal works can continue catching Covid-19 from well-licked conservative Christian church mailers exhorting the faithful to witness the risen coughed up lung, because of his grudge against Jeff Bezos for mailing me books, and incidentally engaging in a free press.
While there is plenty that Bezos needs to account for pertaining to his treatment of his labor force, and while I’m sure trump is indeed sucking his thumb over Bezos’ nearly Michelle Obama-orangutan-like uppityness, consider that many blue states, mine included, depend to a great extent on vote-by-mail and now some red states are moving in that direction too because of Covid-19.
Consider that trump, staying true to the sociopath profile of telling you exactly how he plans to fuck you over BEFORE he does it, and then smirks as we once again, for the millionth time, gasp that surely, he wouldn’t go that far, …….would he? …. has expressed every republican operative’s fear that THOSE people might actually vote in numbers by mail and deliver him into the hands of hanging prosecutors as he runs from the White House, and by the way, republicans might lose some fair fucking elections for a change.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/us/politics/republicans-vote-by-mail.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Hobbling the Post Office will disrupt (have you noticed how conservatives, despite hating change of any kind, are right up front when it comes to “disrupting” everyone else’s lives) mail-in voting and provide for the stealing of the 2020 election, the second, perhaps even the third presidential election they’ve stolen in 20 years, without a shot being fired in a country in which they have provided all of us with every variety of firearm and ammo imaginable.
You don’t think that’s the plan? I’ll take that bet.
It’s bad enough that the Post Office is shackled with pre-accounting annually in its budget for the benefits it provides its workers, some 50 or more years before the benefits are actually paid out, unlike any other entity walking the Earth.
That’s just one fascist vermin scheme going on.
Here’s another, and see where the link originates:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/state-of-the-union/republicans-recruiting-ex-soldiers-cops-to-patrol-2020-voting/
Next November, rather than mail my ballot in as I customarily do, I’m going to find a polling station in a predominately black or Mexican section of Denver and hang out after voting.
I’ve always wanted to see if asshole republican Navy Seals and cops really have the chops to bring armed war or least armed intimidation more commonly seen in the Confederacy and various third world shit holes run by mini-Trumps to the American mainland.
I hope they get in my face. I’ll stop social distancing just for them.
I’m going to send these folks a donation and might even pick up a membership:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck_Revolt
I was pretty a good shot as a kid, gotta medal for marksmanship, but I hate the sight of weapons, particularly in settings customarily set aside for civilians, which should be everywhere besides the battlefield.
I’ve always been fascinated by John Brown’s mission as well, but he made a mistake going in with only 18 combatants.
It would be nice to see 18 million this time around on John Brown’s side.
Regarding the heist of the U.S. Post Office (I’m still receiving bills, despite forwarding them to McKinney, although I’m in receipt of various mis-routed depositions from his law firm; those postal workers can’t do anything right), it has been reported that Trump threatened to veto the stimulus bill if the Post Office received emergency funding so that postal works can continue catching Covid-19 from well-licked conservative Christian church mailers exhorting the faithful to witness the risen coughed up lung, because of his grudge against Jeff Bezos for mailing me books, and incidentally engaging in a free press.
While there is plenty that Bezos needs to account for pertaining to his treatment of his labor force, and while I’m sure trump is indeed sucking his thumb over Bezos’ nearly Michelle Obama-orangutan-like uppityness, consider that many blue states, mine included, depend to a great extent on vote-by-mail and now some red states are moving in that direction too because of Covid-19.
Consider that trump, staying true to the sociopath profile of telling you exactly how he plans to fuck you over BEFORE he does it, and then smirks as we once again, for the millionth time, gasp that surely, he wouldn’t go that far, …….would he? …. has expressed every republican operative’s fear that THOSE people might actually vote in numbers by mail and deliver him into the hands of hanging prosecutors as he runs from the White House, and by the way, republicans might lose some fair fucking elections for a change.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/us/politics/republicans-vote-by-mail.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Hobbling the Post Office will disrupt (have you noticed how conservatives, despite hating change of any kind, are right up front when it comes to “disrupting” everyone else’s lives) mail-in voting and provide for the stealing of the 2020 election, the second, perhaps even the third presidential election they’ve stolen in 20 years, without a shot being fired in a country in which they have provided all of us with every variety of firearm and ammo imaginable.
You don’t think that’s the plan? I’ll take that bet.
It’s bad enough that the Post Office is shackled with pre-accounting annually in its budget for the benefits it provides its workers, some 50 or more years before the benefits are actually paid out, unlike any other entity walking the Earth.
That’s just one fascist vermin scheme going on.
Here’s another, and see where the link originates:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/state-of-the-union/republicans-recruiting-ex-soldiers-cops-to-patrol-2020-voting/
Next November, rather than mail my ballot in as I customarily do, I’m going to find a polling station in a predominately black or Mexican section of Denver and hang out after voting.
I’ve always wanted to see if asshole republican Navy Seals and cops really have the chops to bring armed war or least armed intimidation more commonly seen in the Confederacy and various third world shit holes run by mini-Trumps to the American mainland.
I hope they get in my face. I’ll stop social distancing just for them.
I’m going to send these folks a donation and might even pick up a membership:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck_Revolt
I was pretty a good shot as a kid, gotta medal for marksmanship, but I hate the sight of weapons, particularly in settings customarily set aside for civilians, which should be everywhere besides the battlefield.
I’ve always been fascinated by John Brown’s mission as well, but he made a mistake going in with only 18 combatants.
It would be nice to see 18 million this time around on John Brown’s side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Kk5IG2b8E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Kk5IG2b8E
Sorry, wj, I didn’t mean to have a go at you.
Sorry, wj, I didn’t mean to have a go at you.
…and you see it with BoJo and his recovery from Covid-19…
That is pretty well true.
Though bear in mind that private healthcare (certainly hospitals) in the UK has been effectively nationalised for as long as the crisis lasts.
Most consultants who work in the private sector also work for the NHS, and for the time being will only work for the NHS.
…and you see it with BoJo and his recovery from Covid-19…
That is pretty well true.
Though bear in mind that private healthcare (certainly hospitals) in the UK has been effectively nationalised for as long as the crisis lasts.
Most consultants who work in the private sector also work for the NHS, and for the time being will only work for the NHS.
Most consultants who work in the private sector also work for the NHS, and for the time being will only work for the NHS.
This is very true, and given that they all trained in the NHS, and worked exclusively there in their early careers, most continue to work in the NHS part time to give back. And, related to what you say, some of the very grand ones who retired from the NHS in their eminent later years to make pots of money doing private work, have gone back in for the duration for the crisis.
Most consultants who work in the private sector also work for the NHS, and for the time being will only work for the NHS.
This is very true, and given that they all trained in the NHS, and worked exclusively there in their early careers, most continue to work in the NHS part time to give back. And, related to what you say, some of the very grand ones who retired from the NHS in their eminent later years to make pots of money doing private work, have gone back in for the duration for the crisis.
Maybe I could get to like elections stolen by Soviet Republicans:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/shocker-in-wisconsin
No sweat, the legislature will change the rule tomorrow to ensure the subhuman republican wins anyway.
Maybe I could get to like elections stolen by Soviet Republicans:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/shocker-in-wisconsin
No sweat, the legislature will change the rule tomorrow to ensure the subhuman republican wins anyway.
What Wisconsin seems to demonstrate is that if you are blatant enough about prioritizing your politic benefit over the health and safety of your voters, it will blow up in your face. Note that the outcome in that state supreme court election was an upset. That is, if they hadn’t been so obvious about putting their thumbs on the scale, Wisconsin Republicans could have expected to get the result they wanted.
Put another way, the saving grace, for the rest of us, is the massive, pervasive, utter incompetence of Trump’s boys. Otherwise, they would be doing far more damage.
What Wisconsin seems to demonstrate is that if you are blatant enough about prioritizing your politic benefit over the health and safety of your voters, it will blow up in your face. Note that the outcome in that state supreme court election was an upset. That is, if they hadn’t been so obvious about putting their thumbs on the scale, Wisconsin Republicans could have expected to get the result they wanted.
Put another way, the saving grace, for the rest of us, is the massive, pervasive, utter incompetence of Trump’s boys. Otherwise, they would be doing far more damage.
“Put another way, the saving grace, for the rest of us, is the massive, pervasive, utter incompetence of Trump’s boys. Otherwise, they would be doing far more damage.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyR7XB0VBPM
“Put another way, the saving grace, for the rest of us, is the massive, pervasive, utter incompetence of Trump’s boys. Otherwise, they would be doing far more damage.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyR7XB0VBPM
I was remiss last night in not recapping Trump’s press conference yesterday. They haven’t made the horror flick yet that would do it justice, so I provide the lame stream media’s pale version of reality:
https://www.poynter.org/newsletters/2020/president-trump-attacked-the-media-in-an-off-the-rails-press-conference/
He also rolled out his new and improved Task Force charged with stealing the upcoming election in November and commencing a worldwide nuclear holocaust with China:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOAmRxvPXLE
I was remiss last night in not recapping Trump’s press conference yesterday. They haven’t made the horror flick yet that would do it justice, so I provide the lame stream media’s pale version of reality:
https://www.poynter.org/newsletters/2020/president-trump-attacked-the-media-in-an-off-the-rails-press-conference/
He also rolled out his new and improved Task Force charged with stealing the upcoming election in November and commencing a worldwide nuclear holocaust with China:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOAmRxvPXLE
I understand he also gave Fauci the dreaded vote of confidence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjUOBVAbGhQ
So much for social distancing.
I understand he also gave Fauci the dreaded vote of confidence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjUOBVAbGhQ
So much for social distancing.