Jeepers Jiminy Cricket on a Dad Gum Popsicle Stick!

by

by Ugh

The number of Ivy League educated representatives of the "common man*" in the FoxNews-esque-extended-Marvel-universe-social-media-ecosphere bothers me.  I mean, really?

They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but hey! If I've got an "R" after my name I must therefore speak for Midwestern farmers while sipping (drinking?) a 1945 bottle of Domaine de la Romanée-Conti Romanée-Conti Grand Cru (google it!).  

That said, I really don't know what I"m talking about for the most part.  

Needless to say, OPEN THREAD.

*They also claim to represent the common woman, but, jeebus.

1,038 thoughts on “Jeepers Jiminy Cricket on a Dad Gum Popsicle Stick!”

  3. Better to have one of those … not sure what they’re called, but they have lots of tiny plastic prisms, so that you see two different images from different angles.
    One of Trump, one of Putin. Same pose, same background.

  4. Better to have one of those … not sure what they’re called, but they have lots of tiny plastic prisms, so that you see two different images from different angles.
    One of Trump, one of Putin. Same pose, same background.

  5. Just a small rant and complaint:
    Americans increasingly rate this as the best economy since the late 1990s, with a recent surge in optimism, even though many economic metrics show striking similarities to the final years of the Obama administration.
    Endlessly, endlessly, people here on this blog complained about the struggles of the white working class and the economically anxious, and how people were left behind, and blabidi blah blah blah. People have finally learned, I guess, but I wish they had acknowledged the numbers in 2016.
    I know, I shouldn’t still be angry and sad. Trying to look forward, folks, but not looking backward is hard.

  6. Just a small rant and complaint:
    Americans increasingly rate this as the best economy since the late 1990s, with a recent surge in optimism, even though many economic metrics show striking similarities to the final years of the Obama administration.
    Endlessly, endlessly, people here on this blog complained about the struggles of the white working class and the economically anxious, and how people were left behind, and blabidi blah blah blah. People have finally learned, I guess, but I wish they had acknowledged the numbers in 2016.
    I know, I shouldn’t still be angry and sad. Trying to look forward, folks, but not looking backward is hard.

  7. For Ugh:
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/in-radical-move-mlb-may-expand-playoffs-let-top-teams-pick-their-opponents-2020-02-10?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    OK, I give up. Why don’t they just replay the entire season?
    American milks the fun out of everything and ruins everything it touches.
    We are a ridiculous, exceptionally greedy people.
    I know viruses who would make a better world.
    We have no respite from elections.
    Hockey, basketball, college and pro, payoffs out the yingyang.
    Musk satellites blotting out the night sky.
    24 hour news cycles, 24-hour sports and political shit talk. 24-hour stock markets.
    Why only one fucking SuperBowl? Why not six?
    Please, aliens, get here soon and irradiate the country.
    There used to be a gorilla at the Pittsburgh zoo decades ago who would sit in the center of his cage and in full view of the crowds every ten minutes and all day vomit up the contents of his stomach and then lap it up. Repeat, no rinsing. Sometimes he’d break the monotony by masturbating.
    His name was America.
    Like him, we are all in captivity now.

  8. For Ugh:
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/in-radical-move-mlb-may-expand-playoffs-let-top-teams-pick-their-opponents-2020-02-10?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    OK, I give up. Why don’t they just replay the entire season?
    American milks the fun out of everything and ruins everything it touches.
    We are a ridiculous, exceptionally greedy people.
    I know viruses who would make a better world.
    We have no respite from elections.
    Hockey, basketball, college and pro, payoffs out the yingyang.
    Musk satellites blotting out the night sky.
    24 hour news cycles, 24-hour sports and political shit talk. 24-hour stock markets.
    Why only one fucking SuperBowl? Why not six?
    Please, aliens, get here soon and irradiate the country.
    There used to be a gorilla at the Pittsburgh zoo decades ago who would sit in the center of his cage and in full view of the crowds every ten minutes and all day vomit up the contents of his stomach and then lap it up. Repeat, no rinsing. Sometimes he’d break the monotony by masturbating.
    His name was America.
    Like him, we are all in captivity now.

  9. Hah!
    On gorillas, or chimps actually, my first friend antagonized one at a zoo so much so that he was hit by the actual apocryphal poo flinging – he was six (my friend, not the chimp). This experience formed the basis for the essay part of his Ivy League application. No shit.

  10. Hah!
    On gorillas, or chimps actually, my first friend antagonized one at a zoo so much so that he was hit by the actual apocryphal poo flinging – he was six (my friend, not the chimp). This experience formed the basis for the essay part of his Ivy League application. No shit.

  13. JDT, why did you have to go and just suck the joy out of spring training? 🙁
    After all, there’s always someone with some daft plan to redo the Iowa caucuses season from some sport or another. You have to learn to ignore them.

  14. JDT, why did you have to go and just suck the joy out of spring training? 🙁
    After all, there’s always someone with some daft plan to redo the Iowa caucuses season from some sport or another. You have to learn to ignore them.

  17. It’s easy to confuse common with vulgar.
    Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
    (I write odes to the commoners among the CEOs).

  18. It’s easy to confuse common with vulgar.
    Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
    (I write odes to the commoners among the CEOs).

  19. on the subject of obnoxious zoo animals==the walrus in the Tacoma zoo can shoot spit about twenty feet. he’s an enormous animal, about 11 feet long and mean. he’s a little slow in loading up on ammo, so tourists can see him getting ready. the zoo keepers ibstalled a low plexiglass wall so the gane is for him to tire to fire before the crowd ducks, he usually gets at least a few viewers wet

  20. on the subject of obnoxious zoo animals==the walrus in the Tacoma zoo can shoot spit about twenty feet. he’s an enormous animal, about 11 feet long and mean. he’s a little slow in loading up on ammo, so tourists can see him getting ready. the zoo keepers ibstalled a low plexiglass wall so the gane is for him to tire to fire before the crowd ducks, he usually gets at least a few viewers wet

  21. the walrus in the Tacoma zoo can shoot spit about twenty feet. he’s an enormous animal
    A shoe in for the Republican nomination in 2024.

  22. the walrus in the Tacoma zoo can shoot spit about twenty feet. he’s an enormous animal
    A shoe in for the Republican nomination in 2024.

  23. the walrus in the Tacoma zoo can shoot spit about twenty feet. he’s an enormous animal
    “A shoe in for the Republican nomination in 2024.”
    Running mate: Joe the Carpenter.
    We are the oysters.

  24. the walrus in the Tacoma zoo can shoot spit about twenty feet. he’s an enormous animal
    “A shoe in for the Republican nomination in 2024.”
    Running mate: Joe the Carpenter.
    We are the oysters.

  25. How surprised is anyone here about how fast Biden seems to have fallen? I can’t really decide. Part of me is surprised, but part of me isn’t. And I wonder if he can yet recover. (I suppose is depends on what “can” means. Is it generally possible, given where we are in the process? I’d say yes. Do I think he’s up to it? That I’m less sure about.)

  26. How surprised is anyone here about how fast Biden seems to have fallen? I can’t really decide. Part of me is surprised, but part of me isn’t. And I wonder if he can yet recover. (I suppose is depends on what “can” means. Is it generally possible, given where we are in the process? I’d say yes. Do I think he’s up to it? That I’m less sure about.)

  27. i’m surprised.
    his initial support must have been wide but shallow – name recognition. and the Ukraine stuff probably had an effect.

  28. i’m surprised.
    his initial support must have been wide but shallow – name recognition. and the Ukraine stuff probably had an effect.

  29. Also a tenant at the Pittsburgh Zoo back in the 1960s (my high school girlfriend introduced me to this creature) was a Rhinoceros who would position himself facing the crowd outside his enclosure, and as the expectant crowd grew, would slowly turn and exhibit his hindquarters and produce a water cannon of urine aimed at the crowd, who would then scatter in delight.
    (If I’m not mistaken, the Denver Zoo housed a rhino who exhibited this behavior as well, which makes me wonder if it was the same animal, shunted among foster zoos when one too many incidents occurred)
    The rhino would actually wave his derriere back and forth to include the outer edges of the human observers in his, well, golden showers.
    It was not unlike the crowds that gather around the geysers at Yellowstone and sit patiently but with mounting excitement awaiting the next scheduled emission of hot water into the air.
    In both cases, biological and geological, the resulting huzzahs from the crowds are calibrated to the size and power of the streams.
    If you step back (which I recommend in the vicinity of the walrus, the rhino, and the gorilla) and think about this, you can understand the beasts’ attitudes.
    Reverse the tableaux and put the humans inside the cage and the animals wandering about as free, but paying onlookers.
    The human wouldn’t spit, urinate, or vomit at the animals, we would shoot at them with high-powered weapons, skin them, tan their hides, dry, cure, and later consume their flesh, render their fat and blubber, and then put their severed heads on the walls of our enclosures and call it free range farm to table dining and resource utilization, and our current dietary scheme to boot.
    Really, the rhino, walrus, and gorilla shows are pretty much what goes on at a Trump rally, except that in the latter case when the spittle, vomitus, and shit hit the fan, the crowds move in closer to get it all over them and then are interviewed on FOX News to accuse liberals of making them do it.
    As George Carlin noted, chickens are decent people. You never see a chicken hooking a guy’s testicles up to a car battery and turning on the juice, do ya? No! Ya know why? Because chickens are decent people.
    And now for something completely different. David Brooks takes a ration, including from me, but this quite long read about the evolution of the American nuclear family is superb, especially in the depictions of the surprising origins of its current and successful progress to something, if not better, than just as helpful to societal stability and an antidote to the loneliness of the long distance individual American.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-nuclear-family-was-a-mistake/605536/

  30. Also a tenant at the Pittsburgh Zoo back in the 1960s (my high school girlfriend introduced me to this creature) was a Rhinoceros who would position himself facing the crowd outside his enclosure, and as the expectant crowd grew, would slowly turn and exhibit his hindquarters and produce a water cannon of urine aimed at the crowd, who would then scatter in delight.
    (If I’m not mistaken, the Denver Zoo housed a rhino who exhibited this behavior as well, which makes me wonder if it was the same animal, shunted among foster zoos when one too many incidents occurred)
    The rhino would actually wave his derriere back and forth to include the outer edges of the human observers in his, well, golden showers.
    It was not unlike the crowds that gather around the geysers at Yellowstone and sit patiently but with mounting excitement awaiting the next scheduled emission of hot water into the air.
    In both cases, biological and geological, the resulting huzzahs from the crowds are calibrated to the size and power of the streams.
    If you step back (which I recommend in the vicinity of the walrus, the rhino, and the gorilla) and think about this, you can understand the beasts’ attitudes.
    Reverse the tableaux and put the humans inside the cage and the animals wandering about as free, but paying onlookers.
    The human wouldn’t spit, urinate, or vomit at the animals, we would shoot at them with high-powered weapons, skin them, tan their hides, dry, cure, and later consume their flesh, render their fat and blubber, and then put their severed heads on the walls of our enclosures and call it free range farm to table dining and resource utilization, and our current dietary scheme to boot.
    Really, the rhino, walrus, and gorilla shows are pretty much what goes on at a Trump rally, except that in the latter case when the spittle, vomitus, and shit hit the fan, the crowds move in closer to get it all over them and then are interviewed on FOX News to accuse liberals of making them do it.
    As George Carlin noted, chickens are decent people. You never see a chicken hooking a guy’s testicles up to a car battery and turning on the juice, do ya? No! Ya know why? Because chickens are decent people.
    And now for something completely different. David Brooks takes a ration, including from me, but this quite long read about the evolution of the American nuclear family is superb, especially in the depictions of the surprising origins of its current and successful progress to something, if not better, than just as helpful to societal stability and an antidote to the loneliness of the long distance individual American.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-nuclear-family-was-a-mistake/605536/

  35. The David Brooks article is worth reading, and unusually thoughtful. He says this though:
    “In a recent survey by the Institute for Family Studies, college-educated Californians ages 18 to 50 were less likely than those who hadn’t graduated from college to say that having a baby out of wedlock is wrong. But they were more likely to say that personally they did not approve of having a baby out of wedlock.
    “In other words, while social conservatives have a philosophy of family life they can’t operationalize, because it no longer is relevant, progressives have no philosophy of family life at all, because they don’t want to seem judgmental. The sexual revolution has come and gone, and it’s left us with no governing norms of family life, no guiding values, no articulated ideals. On this most central issue, our shared culture often has nothing relevant to say—and so for decades things have been falling apart.”
    As to whether “progressives” (by that he means college educated Californians, maybe) have guiding values, etc., what’s really true is that people who have resources will do what’s logically most beneficial for their children, in the context of current social norms, will choose that route. Having children in a system that’s socially supported is the path of least resistance for most people if they can afford it.
    Most people have “governing norms of family life, … guiding values, … articulated ideals” roughly in keeping with other philosophical or religious values, and usually having to do with loving and caring for people to whom one is committed. Conforming one’s behavior to accommodate caring for those people is the most likely reason for the family behavior of college educated people with resources. People without resources make similar kinds of decisions, but possibly with different results since they don’t have the financial means to finesse problems when they arise.
    That said, it’s good that Brooks is giving voice to the idea that systems other than nuclear family need to be recognized and supported.

  36. The David Brooks article is worth reading, and unusually thoughtful. He says this though:
    “In a recent survey by the Institute for Family Studies, college-educated Californians ages 18 to 50 were less likely than those who hadn’t graduated from college to say that having a baby out of wedlock is wrong. But they were more likely to say that personally they did not approve of having a baby out of wedlock.
    “In other words, while social conservatives have a philosophy of family life they can’t operationalize, because it no longer is relevant, progressives have no philosophy of family life at all, because they don’t want to seem judgmental. The sexual revolution has come and gone, and it’s left us with no governing norms of family life, no guiding values, no articulated ideals. On this most central issue, our shared culture often has nothing relevant to say—and so for decades things have been falling apart.”
    As to whether “progressives” (by that he means college educated Californians, maybe) have guiding values, etc., what’s really true is that people who have resources will do what’s logically most beneficial for their children, in the context of current social norms, will choose that route. Having children in a system that’s socially supported is the path of least resistance for most people if they can afford it.
    Most people have “governing norms of family life, … guiding values, … articulated ideals” roughly in keeping with other philosophical or religious values, and usually having to do with loving and caring for people to whom one is committed. Conforming one’s behavior to accommodate caring for those people is the most likely reason for the family behavior of college educated people with resources. People without resources make similar kinds of decisions, but possibly with different results since they don’t have the financial means to finesse problems when they arise.
    That said, it’s good that Brooks is giving voice to the idea that systems other than nuclear family need to be recognized and supported.

  37. I recall having heard, years ago, about elephants in a zoo picking up rocks and hurling them at people that were annoying them.
    With major-league accuracy and power. Those trunks have a lot of muscle and plenty a long lever-arm.
    Now to train them to bean MAGA-hat wearers. Elephants are smart, so I bet it’s doable. They’d probably appreciate the irony also, too.

  38. I recall having heard, years ago, about elephants in a zoo picking up rocks and hurling them at people that were annoying them.
    With major-league accuracy and power. Those trunks have a lot of muscle and plenty a long lever-arm.
    Now to train them to bean MAGA-hat wearers. Elephants are smart, so I bet it’s doable. They’d probably appreciate the irony also, too.

  39. Years ago, the orcas at Sea World in San Diego could make a pass along the edge of the tank where they performed and dump a huge amount of water over the plexiglass wall onto the first five or six rows of the audience. That might have been a trained behavior, though.

  40. Years ago, the orcas at Sea World in San Diego could make a pass along the edge of the tank where they performed and dump a huge amount of water over the plexiglass wall onto the first five or six rows of the audience. That might have been a trained behavior, though.

  41. Now to train them to bean MAGA-hat wearers. Elephants are smart, so I bet it’s doable. They’d probably appreciate the irony also, too.
    Don Jr. will be there with a bazooka in no time. I’m surprised they haven’t already opened up the zoos for him and his pals to go on safari.

  42. Now to train them to bean MAGA-hat wearers. Elephants are smart, so I bet it’s doable. They’d probably appreciate the irony also, too.
    Don Jr. will be there with a bazooka in no time. I’m surprised they haven’t already opened up the zoos for him and his pals to go on safari.

  43. Brooks is an ass. Progressives have no idea of family life at all? Because they are not judgmental? In other words Brooks can’t separate a judgmental attitude from having ideas. It’s outside his frame of reference that someone might have ideas–and live by them–while not being judgmental. How did this idiot get to be a pundit?

  44. Brooks is an ass. Progressives have no idea of family life at all? Because they are not judgmental? In other words Brooks can’t separate a judgmental attitude from having ideas. It’s outside his frame of reference that someone might have ideas–and live by them–while not being judgmental. How did this idiot get to be a pundit?

  45. How did this idiot get to be a pundit?
    By feeding many people’s need to feel morally superior to those other awful people over there?
    (That’s when he’s not feeding people’s need to feel above all the petty squabbling those other awful people over there are always engaging in.)

  46. How did this idiot get to be a pundit?
    By feeding many people’s need to feel morally superior to those other awful people over there?
    (That’s when he’s not feeding people’s need to feel above all the petty squabbling those other awful people over there are always engaging in.)

  47. How surprised is anyone here about how fast Biden seems to have fallen?
    It was always obvious (at least to me) that a big part of Biden’s standing in the polls was simply name recognition. In many ways, it’s similar to the advantages of incumbancy — anyone running against an incumbant first has to get voters to recognize him. (That’s also, of course, why Iowa and New Hampshire are important: they’re ways for those less well known to get on voter’s radar. See Carter, Obama, etc.) Once the campaign actually got serious, his name recognition head start would fade. The first question was/is: could he stay ahead thru losses in the first two contests?
    The real question is, how much of Biden’s standing with African-Americans is name recognition? Some is probably his association with Obama. But how much is each will impact how well he comes out of South Carolina. If he doesn’t just win thete, but win big, he’s probably toast.
    Biden’s other problem is that he appears to be less actively campaigning than some of his opponents. That may have explanations other than age, but it does keep the age issue prominent (for him; not so much for his equally old but more active opponents).

  48. How surprised is anyone here about how fast Biden seems to have fallen?
    It was always obvious (at least to me) that a big part of Biden’s standing in the polls was simply name recognition. In many ways, it’s similar to the advantages of incumbancy — anyone running against an incumbant first has to get voters to recognize him. (That’s also, of course, why Iowa and New Hampshire are important: they’re ways for those less well known to get on voter’s radar. See Carter, Obama, etc.) Once the campaign actually got serious, his name recognition head start would fade. The first question was/is: could he stay ahead thru losses in the first two contests?
    The real question is, how much of Biden’s standing with African-Americans is name recognition? Some is probably his association with Obama. But how much is each will impact how well he comes out of South Carolina. If he doesn’t just win thete, but win big, he’s probably toast.
    Biden’s other problem is that he appears to be less actively campaigning than some of his opponents. That may have explanations other than age, but it does keep the age issue prominent (for him; not so much for his equally old but more active opponents).

  49. Has Brooks talked to anyone under the age of 30 ?
    (Confession, I haven’t got around to reading the article yet, so an genuine answer would help me decide whether to bother.)

  50. Has Brooks talked to anyone under the age of 30 ?
    (Confession, I haven’t got around to reading the article yet, so an genuine answer would help me decide whether to bother.)

  53. … and more surprise by how long Biden maintained his lead than how quickly he fell.
    He missed his chance four years ago. And might have saved us all an ocean of ordure, had he not.

  54. … and more surprise by how long Biden maintained his lead than how quickly he fell.
    He missed his chance four years ago. And might have saved us all an ocean of ordure, had he not.

  55. He missed his chance four years ago.
    I can’t argue with this. He may (or might, JanieM?) have given it a shot had his son not died.

  56. He missed his chance four years ago.
    I can’t argue with this. He may (or might, JanieM?) have given it a shot had his son not died.

  57. Making sense of New Hampshire:

    Mike Bloomberg took home an unexpected bipartisan win in Dixville Notch (with three write-in votes).

    Note that one of those was in the Republican primary.
    Suddenly, all becomes clear. Or not.

  58. Making sense of New Hampshire:

    Mike Bloomberg took home an unexpected bipartisan win in Dixville Notch (with three write-in votes).

    Note that one of those was in the Republican primary.
    Suddenly, all becomes clear. Or not.

  61. Extrapolating electoral trends based on sub-atomic samples of non-representative populations. That’s what news coverage has become. (Still better than Faux News, however.)

  62. Extrapolating electoral trends based on sub-atomic samples of non-representative populations. That’s what news coverage has become. (Still better than Faux News, however.)

  65. That’s what news coverage has become
    I thought these eccentric mini polls were traditional ?
    No one actually thinks there will be a Klobuchar NH landslide, do they ?

  66. That’s what news coverage has become
    I thought these eccentric mini polls were traditional ?
    No one actually thinks there will be a Klobuchar NH landslide, do they ?

  69. a Klobuchar NH landslide
    That would be a solid third place finish. If she’s way ahead of Biden and Warren, then yeah, that’s a landslide for her at this point.

  70. a Klobuchar NH landslide
    That would be a solid third place finish. If she’s way ahead of Biden and Warren, then yeah, that’s a landslide for her at this point.

  71. LOL.
    Hart’s Location is more or less Crawford Notch, basically a creek bed passing through the White Mtns. If you go up north in NH, and don’t go by way of Franconia, you drive through it. Ever so briefly.
    It is pretty.
    Population in the 2010 census was 43.
    There was a famous landslide there, but not one that will make a difference today.

  72. LOL.
    Hart’s Location is more or less Crawford Notch, basically a creek bed passing through the White Mtns. If you go up north in NH, and don’t go by way of Franconia, you drive through it. Ever so briefly.
    It is pretty.
    Population in the 2010 census was 43.
    There was a famous landslide there, but not one that will make a difference today.

  73. THREE of the DOJ attorneys on the Roger Stone case have now either resigned or withdrawn from it, in just the past few hours. But sure, the President order the sentencing recommendation changed….

  74. THREE of the DOJ attorneys on the Roger Stone case have now either resigned or withdrawn from it, in just the past few hours. But sure, the President order the sentencing recommendation changed….

  75. the President order the sentencing recommendation changed….
    I do wonder why he bothered. After all, he’s probably going to issue a pardon anyway (to keep Stone from eventually breaking down and testifying, after getting tired of prison).
    Maybe just because he can. “What good is absolute power if you can’t abuse it?”

  76. the President order the sentencing recommendation changed….
    I do wonder why he bothered. After all, he’s probably going to issue a pardon anyway (to keep Stone from eventually breaking down and testifying, after getting tired of prison).
    Maybe just because he can. “What good is absolute power if you can’t abuse it?”

  79. Well, if the intention was to drive out some competent and ethical attorneys, to make openings to appoint more incompetent hacks, then it must be accounted a success.

  80. Well, if the intention was to drive out some competent and ethical attorneys, to make openings to appoint more incompetent hacks, then it must be accounted a success.

  85. So, with 95+% of the New Hampshire results in, what do we have?

    • Sanders got the most votes, roughly 26%. Which, I note, is way down on his results in 2016.
    • Buttigieg finished a strong second, just over 24%.
    • Klobuchar finished a strong 3rd, at 20%. Way above expectations.
    • Warren tanked, failing to reach 10%. At this point, she’s going to need a spectacular finish no later than Super Tuesday to stay in the hunt.
    • Biden also finished under 10%. And maintained his record, across 3 Presidential campaigns, of never finishing a primary or caucus above 4th. South Carolina might break the string. But it’s not a great record for someone running on “electability”.

    Clarity? Still an aspiration.

  86. So, with 95+% of the New Hampshire results in, what do we have?

    • Sanders got the most votes, roughly 26%. Which, I note, is way down on his results in 2016.
    • Buttigieg finished a strong second, just over 24%.
    • Klobuchar finished a strong 3rd, at 20%. Way above expectations.
    • Warren tanked, failing to reach 10%. At this point, she’s going to need a spectacular finish no later than Super Tuesday to stay in the hunt.
    • Biden also finished under 10%. And maintained his record, across 3 Presidential campaigns, of never finishing a primary or caucus above 4th. South Carolina might break the string. But it’s not a great record for someone running on “electability”.

    Clarity? Still an aspiration.

  87. I don’t know that Sanders getting many fewer votes in NH this time is as big a deal as the commentators are making it out to be. A lot of that last time was probably a combination of protest votes against Clinton and/or a desire to see an actual contest for the nomination. This time I think a lot of people just want to know what sort of cheese will be on the ham sandwich.

  88. I don’t know that Sanders getting many fewer votes in NH this time is as big a deal as the commentators are making it out to be. A lot of that last time was probably a combination of protest votes against Clinton and/or a desire to see an actual contest for the nomination. This time I think a lot of people just want to know what sort of cheese will be on the ham sandwich.

  89. I wonder why he bothered…
    It establishes a precedent, and sends a powerful message – or rather a message about the raw exercise of power.
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/did-donald-trump-just-get-roger-stones-prison-sentence-reduced
    Let’s suppose that we had a President, and an Attorney General, who is not interested in the appearance or doing of justice. And let’s also assume that that President called up the Attorney General and said that his friend was going to get a tough sentence and he really wished that he could get a lesser sentence. And the Attorney General said O.K. What you seem to be saying is that nothing in that chain of events is illegal.
    Aside from obstruction of justice, there is not anything that comes to mind that makes that overtly illegal……
    And it is not as though the DOJ is not starting to follow presidential instructions on whom to target for prosecution. No doubt he’ll weigh in to get sentences increased, in due course….
    This is how democracy slides into tyranny.
    Today’s Republican party has no sense at all that the judicial system is separate from the political.

  90. I wonder why he bothered…
    It establishes a precedent, and sends a powerful message – or rather a message about the raw exercise of power.
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/did-donald-trump-just-get-roger-stones-prison-sentence-reduced
    Let’s suppose that we had a President, and an Attorney General, who is not interested in the appearance or doing of justice. And let’s also assume that that President called up the Attorney General and said that his friend was going to get a tough sentence and he really wished that he could get a lesser sentence. And the Attorney General said O.K. What you seem to be saying is that nothing in that chain of events is illegal.
    Aside from obstruction of justice, there is not anything that comes to mind that makes that overtly illegal……
    And it is not as though the DOJ is not starting to follow presidential instructions on whom to target for prosecution. No doubt he’ll weigh in to get sentences increased, in due course….
    This is how democracy slides into tyranny.
    Today’s Republican party has no sense at all that the judicial system is separate from the political.

  93. Vox on Bernie in NH:

    Jackson told me the campaign knocked on upward of 475,000 doors before its final get-out-the-vote weekend ahead of Tuesday. Last Saturday alone, volunteers knocked on 150,000 doors.

    The total population of NH is a bit less than a million four.
    Folks may object to his policies and/or “the Bros” but the man knows how to get out the vote.

  94. Vox on Bernie in NH:

    Jackson told me the campaign knocked on upward of 475,000 doors before its final get-out-the-vote weekend ahead of Tuesday. Last Saturday alone, volunteers knocked on 150,000 doors.

    The total population of NH is a bit less than a million four.
    Folks may object to his policies and/or “the Bros” but the man knows how to get out the vote.

  95. Google translate is brilliant.
    I was delighted to learn that this 미국놈들 translated as ‘Americas’….
    and split into its constituent parts, it becomes ‘USA bastards’…

  96. Google translate is brilliant.
    I was delighted to learn that this 미국놈들 translated as ‘Americas’….
    and split into its constituent parts, it becomes ‘USA bastards’…

  99. but the man knows how to get out the vote.
    he knows how to get people to knock on doors.
    but his NH victory was hardly resounding.
    if his goal is, as his campaign says, is to draw new people into the process who will replace boring old centrist Dems… well… the ‘centrists’ kindof kicked his ass, twice now.
    oWell.

  100. but the man knows how to get out the vote.
    he knows how to get people to knock on doors.
    but his NH victory was hardly resounding.
    if his goal is, as his campaign says, is to draw new people into the process who will replace boring old centrist Dems… well… the ‘centrists’ kindof kicked his ass, twice now.
    oWell.

  101. “This is how democracy slides into tyranny.”
    We’re there.
    Slides are for kids. How bout a more active verb. “hurtles?” might do.
    There will be savagely violent Civil War and the overthrow and execution of the conservative movement Deep Fascist States tightening their grip around the globe.
    “Today’s Republican party has no sense at all that the judicial system is separate from the political.”
    This statement is voiced so passively as to not even reach the level of a yellow caution light at a school crossing as a Panzer tank division bears down on it at speed.
    The time for being appalled and standing aghast at what is happening is goddamned past.
    In fact, the republican party’s very malignant willed agency is that the judicial system, which will be slaughtered and butchered, is the slab in the final morgue on which the thug conservative movement hopes to disfigure and dismember the corpse of the Democratic Party and liberalism and its legacy going back to 1932.
    And that will be just the beginning. Remember, John Wilkes Booth is the founding father of today’s republican party.
    Nigel, I don’t mean any of this personally toward you. Neither do I expect agreement from you.
    Today’s Republican Party has created a judicial system, a malignantly vengeful deep state justice system, that will place political hatred and vengeance against its enemies (they’ve provided a running list of their enemies for years; read it. It is legion. All but two commenters here, bc and Marty, are on it, and they skate on thin ice because their loyalties to the piece of dog shit thug are suspect as well, as in not total, despite their mouthing of his stupiditudes) at the behest of one fascist thug and in the service of enacting the totality of its policies (read that list too; they will fulfill all of it unless they are stopped now by all and every means necessary) in what was once America.
    There are times in history in which the decent human instinct to hold ourselves to a higher standard than evil filth hold themselves to is a losing proposition.
    This is one of them.
    A word to Marty.
    If in fact you actually believe that taxes are SLAVERY, and I doubt you mean that, it’s just sentimental claptrap like your bullshit on these pages about the poor victimized Confederacy and the hurt feelings of the noble, traitorous enslaving South treated so badly by its conquerors.
    But, I’m willing to take you at your word for the sheer absurdity of it.
    So, let it be written that taxes are indeed SLAVERY. I take that to mean that the first cent of tax, of any kind, is as much slavery as the last marginal cent of tax.
    I’m still paying taxes last time I looked.
    Why, it’s like tax slavery Jim Crow from where I sit.
    I am ENSLAVED. You know what I do when someone attempts to enslave me. I fucking kill them.
    What do you do? Whimper?
    So send your deep state conservative tax collectors to knock on my door. Please send that stinking anti-American armed cuck Grover Norquist to my door to collect the taxes required to rent the Secret Service golf carts from the thieving, cheating, piece of dog shit whose entire life had been a mulligan bestowed on him by dupes and groveling dumbasses.
    Please.
    What I really look forward to is Norquist giving mouth to mouth to the baby he’s drowning in the bathtub and calling on the government to protect him from ME.
    I notice that as the cold, hard hand of fascism tightens its grip, vermin, who mind their own morally-neutral business most of the time, are behaving oddly, as they might before an earthquake or a meteor strike.
    Rats are seeking shelter from those who are intent on fucking them.
    Bugs and centipedes are skittering under my door seeking shelter from the gathering menace.
    Cockroaches have abject fear in their eyes as their antennae pick up murderous vibrations on the move.
    Carry on. Save yourselves.
    Ham sandwiches could be our last meal.
    I’ll take mine with revenge served cold and deadly.
    No doubt wj will have more reasonably useless words than mine about our prospects.
    But maybe wj thinks he can fool them by not showing emotion:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmPqOdWV3xo

  102. “This is how democracy slides into tyranny.”
    We’re there.
    Slides are for kids. How bout a more active verb. “hurtles?” might do.
    There will be savagely violent Civil War and the overthrow and execution of the conservative movement Deep Fascist States tightening their grip around the globe.
    “Today’s Republican party has no sense at all that the judicial system is separate from the political.”
    This statement is voiced so passively as to not even reach the level of a yellow caution light at a school crossing as a Panzer tank division bears down on it at speed.
    The time for being appalled and standing aghast at what is happening is goddamned past.
    In fact, the republican party’s very malignant willed agency is that the judicial system, which will be slaughtered and butchered, is the slab in the final morgue on which the thug conservative movement hopes to disfigure and dismember the corpse of the Democratic Party and liberalism and its legacy going back to 1932.
    And that will be just the beginning. Remember, John Wilkes Booth is the founding father of today’s republican party.
    Nigel, I don’t mean any of this personally toward you. Neither do I expect agreement from you.
    Today’s Republican Party has created a judicial system, a malignantly vengeful deep state justice system, that will place political hatred and vengeance against its enemies (they’ve provided a running list of their enemies for years; read it. It is legion. All but two commenters here, bc and Marty, are on it, and they skate on thin ice because their loyalties to the piece of dog shit thug are suspect as well, as in not total, despite their mouthing of his stupiditudes) at the behest of one fascist thug and in the service of enacting the totality of its policies (read that list too; they will fulfill all of it unless they are stopped now by all and every means necessary) in what was once America.
    There are times in history in which the decent human instinct to hold ourselves to a higher standard than evil filth hold themselves to is a losing proposition.
    This is one of them.
    A word to Marty.
    If in fact you actually believe that taxes are SLAVERY, and I doubt you mean that, it’s just sentimental claptrap like your bullshit on these pages about the poor victimized Confederacy and the hurt feelings of the noble, traitorous enslaving South treated so badly by its conquerors.
    But, I’m willing to take you at your word for the sheer absurdity of it.
    So, let it be written that taxes are indeed SLAVERY. I take that to mean that the first cent of tax, of any kind, is as much slavery as the last marginal cent of tax.
    I’m still paying taxes last time I looked.
    Why, it’s like tax slavery Jim Crow from where I sit.
    I am ENSLAVED. You know what I do when someone attempts to enslave me. I fucking kill them.
    What do you do? Whimper?
    So send your deep state conservative tax collectors to knock on my door. Please send that stinking anti-American armed cuck Grover Norquist to my door to collect the taxes required to rent the Secret Service golf carts from the thieving, cheating, piece of dog shit whose entire life had been a mulligan bestowed on him by dupes and groveling dumbasses.
    Please.
    What I really look forward to is Norquist giving mouth to mouth to the baby he’s drowning in the bathtub and calling on the government to protect him from ME.
    I notice that as the cold, hard hand of fascism tightens its grip, vermin, who mind their own morally-neutral business most of the time, are behaving oddly, as they might before an earthquake or a meteor strike.
    Rats are seeking shelter from those who are intent on fucking them.
    Bugs and centipedes are skittering under my door seeking shelter from the gathering menace.
    Cockroaches have abject fear in their eyes as their antennae pick up murderous vibrations on the move.
    Carry on. Save yourselves.
    Ham sandwiches could be our last meal.
    I’ll take mine with revenge served cold and deadly.
    No doubt wj will have more reasonably useless words than mine about our prospects.
    But maybe wj thinks he can fool them by not showing emotion:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmPqOdWV3xo

  103. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/is-trump-stumbling-into-the-nuclear-missile-gap/
    One morning we will awake to these twatted words issued from the ungrammatical thumbs of a murderer sitting on his solid gold shitter:
    “Now I become Death, the destroyer of worlds.”
    “Why can’t we use them?. It took me 90 minutes to learn everything there is to know about nuclear weapons.”
    46 billion dollars stolen from this slave. Will you be Spartacus, too?
    Well, at least the republican party will be incinerated and vaporized as well, so it’s not all downside.

  104. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/is-trump-stumbling-into-the-nuclear-missile-gap/
    One morning we will awake to these twatted words issued from the ungrammatical thumbs of a murderer sitting on his solid gold shitter:
    “Now I become Death, the destroyer of worlds.”
    “Why can’t we use them?. It took me 90 minutes to learn everything there is to know about nuclear weapons.”
    46 billion dollars stolen from this slave. Will you be Spartacus, too?
    Well, at least the republican party will be incinerated and vaporized as well, so it’s not all downside.

  105. if his goal is, as his campaign says, is to draw new people into the process who will replace boring old centrist Dems… well… the ‘centrists’ kindof kicked his ass, twice now.
    What I’ve seen people saying/writing is that you can’t expect Sanders to do nearly as well as in 2016 because the vote is split among so many more candidates. But when you consider that the moderates are splitting their votes, too, and that the other liberal, Warren, did rather poorly, the narrow win is still a disappointment, falling well short of very reasonable expectations.
    For Buttigieg to come that close at the same time that his main rival, Klobuchar, did so well should be very worrisome for Sanders. That’s my take.

  106. if his goal is, as his campaign says, is to draw new people into the process who will replace boring old centrist Dems… well… the ‘centrists’ kindof kicked his ass, twice now.
    What I’ve seen people saying/writing is that you can’t expect Sanders to do nearly as well as in 2016 because the vote is split among so many more candidates. But when you consider that the moderates are splitting their votes, too, and that the other liberal, Warren, did rather poorly, the narrow win is still a disappointment, falling well short of very reasonable expectations.
    For Buttigieg to come that close at the same time that his main rival, Klobuchar, did so well should be very worrisome for Sanders. That’s my take.

  107. While I’m not inclined to engage in the daily ravings, I am pretty sure I’ve never defined taxes as slavery. Although I’ve read that a few times here I believe. If I have it would require some context to remember why I said it.

  108. While I’m not inclined to engage in the daily ravings, I am pretty sure I’ve never defined taxes as slavery. Although I’ve read that a few times here I believe. If I have it would require some context to remember why I said it.

  109. For Buttigieg to come that close at the same time that his main rival, Klobuchar, did so well should be very worrisome for Sanders.
    yup.
    prollem is… splitting the moderate/traditional vote while the outsider rakes up plurality wins is exactly how the GOP ended up with Trump (before they all fell in deep passionate love with him anyway).

  110. For Buttigieg to come that close at the same time that his main rival, Klobuchar, did so well should be very worrisome for Sanders.
    yup.
    prollem is… splitting the moderate/traditional vote while the outsider rakes up plurality wins is exactly how the GOP ended up with Trump (before they all fell in deep passionate love with him anyway).

  111. It was several months ago, Marty. You wrote it.
    If cleek has time, perhaps he can find it.
    The context was what it always is. Ya hates taxes.

  112. It was several months ago, Marty. You wrote it.
    If cleek has time, perhaps he can find it.
    The context was what it always is. Ya hates taxes.

  113. splitting the moderate/traditional vote while the outsider rakes up plurality wins is exactly how the GOP ended up with Trump (before they all fell in deep passionate love with him anyway).
    Is that a prediction of events, should Sanders get the nomination and win? 🙂
    Well, even here (where people actually agree with Sanders’ views far more than those in Congress do) I expect folks will remain outside the cult more. Comes of too much real data from the real world.

  114. splitting the moderate/traditional vote while the outsider rakes up plurality wins is exactly how the GOP ended up with Trump (before they all fell in deep passionate love with him anyway).
    Is that a prediction of events, should Sanders get the nomination and win? 🙂
    Well, even here (where people actually agree with Sanders’ views far more than those in Congress do) I expect folks will remain outside the cult more. Comes of too much real data from the real world.

  115. No doubt wj will have more reasonably useless words than mine about our prospects
    John, if you want to rant about how Trump (and his toady Barr**) are trashing the Justice Department, you might even find me agreeing with you. Ya just gotta pick your targets a bit. That interference on the Stone case is appalling. We can only hope the judge forces the Justice Department to explain themselves — likely as coherently as Republican Senators on impeachment. And then goes with the original prosecutors’ recommendation.
    ** Who’d have thought we’d reach the point of being nostalgic for Sessions? It’s a reminder of how low we have fallen.

  116. No doubt wj will have more reasonably useless words than mine about our prospects
    John, if you want to rant about how Trump (and his toady Barr**) are trashing the Justice Department, you might even find me agreeing with you. Ya just gotta pick your targets a bit. That interference on the Stone case is appalling. We can only hope the judge forces the Justice Department to explain themselves — likely as coherently as Republican Senators on impeachment. And then goes with the original prosecutors’ recommendation.
    ** Who’d have thought we’d reach the point of being nostalgic for Sessions? It’s a reminder of how low we have fallen.

  119. The (D) vote is divided between people who are interested in more aggressive reform, and people who are interested in more moderate, incremental improvements to the status quo.
    The first group splits between Sanders and Warren, the second between Butigieg and Klobuchar. Biden used to more or less own the second group, but he is just not a strong candidate this year, for whatever collection of reasons.
    The (D) vote is absolutely unified in its desire to kick POTUS Trump the f*** out of the White House and then bar the door behind him. The differences between more progressive vs more moderate pale in comparison, and should do so. And, that constituency is actually a majority of the people in the country, unclear how that will play out as electoral votes.
    All of the leading candidates are plausible presidents, and all of them are infinitely preferable to Trump. All of them.
    In NH I figured Warren would do well, but I think Bernie just outplayed her ground game. Butigieg was strong coming out of Iowa, but Klobuchar had a great debate, so they split the moderates.
    And nobody is really so strong that anyone can say where it will land. I wouldn’t even count Biden out, there are some states coming up where he could do quite well and turn it around.
    I don’t care who is the (D) nominee. I will be perfectly happy to pull the lever for any one of them. I will have no hesitation whatsoever.
    Four more years of Trump will change this country in ways that we may not recover from. We’ll still have a lot of money and still have a great big freaking military, but the idea of a self-governing republic operating under rule of law will be thoroughly screwed.
    If we end up with four more years of Trump based on a purely electoral advantage – i.e., without a solid popular vote majority – then the basic legitimacy of national governance is going to come into question.

  120. The (D) vote is divided between people who are interested in more aggressive reform, and people who are interested in more moderate, incremental improvements to the status quo.
    The first group splits between Sanders and Warren, the second between Butigieg and Klobuchar. Biden used to more or less own the second group, but he is just not a strong candidate this year, for whatever collection of reasons.
    The (D) vote is absolutely unified in its desire to kick POTUS Trump the f*** out of the White House and then bar the door behind him. The differences between more progressive vs more moderate pale in comparison, and should do so. And, that constituency is actually a majority of the people in the country, unclear how that will play out as electoral votes.
    All of the leading candidates are plausible presidents, and all of them are infinitely preferable to Trump. All of them.
    In NH I figured Warren would do well, but I think Bernie just outplayed her ground game. Butigieg was strong coming out of Iowa, but Klobuchar had a great debate, so they split the moderates.
    And nobody is really so strong that anyone can say where it will land. I wouldn’t even count Biden out, there are some states coming up where he could do quite well and turn it around.
    I don’t care who is the (D) nominee. I will be perfectly happy to pull the lever for any one of them. I will have no hesitation whatsoever.
    Four more years of Trump will change this country in ways that we may not recover from. We’ll still have a lot of money and still have a great big freaking military, but the idea of a self-governing republic operating under rule of law will be thoroughly screwed.
    If we end up with four more years of Trump based on a purely electoral advantage – i.e., without a solid popular vote majority – then the basic legitimacy of national governance is going to come into question.

  121. So if I pick a target, all I get is a “might”.
    Well it rather depends on which target you pick, doesn’t it? And whether you go with a scalpel or a meat ax. (Or, if you prefer, with a sniper rifle or a tactical nuke.)
    I admit to a preference for dispassion, when possible. But rest assured that I can rage as much (if not as eloquently) as you on occasion.

  122. So if I pick a target, all I get is a “might”.
    Well it rather depends on which target you pick, doesn’t it? And whether you go with a scalpel or a meat ax. (Or, if you prefer, with a sniper rifle or a tactical nuke.)
    I admit to a preference for dispassion, when possible. But rest assured that I can rage as much (if not as eloquently) as you on occasion.

  139. December 9, 2019 8:26pm “We Don’t Need No Thought Control”
    “Honestly, the only party that openly desires to enslave anyone is the Democrats.
    Every policy is based on the government taking all the money and doling it out as they desire.
    That’s the closest thing to enslaving people any party gets.”
    Marty, you stated right there that taxes and government spending are slavery.
    You might think you rounded off the sharp edges with the words “the closest thing”.
    The context is a lie about Democrats.
    Like I said, I don’t think you really meant what you wrote.
    cleek had the best answer at the time. I’ve been sitting on my response for two months.

  140. December 9, 2019 8:26pm “We Don’t Need No Thought Control”
    “Honestly, the only party that openly desires to enslave anyone is the Democrats.
    Every policy is based on the government taking all the money and doling it out as they desire.
    That’s the closest thing to enslaving people any party gets.”
    Marty, you stated right there that taxes and government spending are slavery.
    You might think you rounded off the sharp edges with the words “the closest thing”.
    The context is a lie about Democrats.
    Like I said, I don’t think you really meant what you wrote.
    cleek had the best answer at the time. I’ve been sitting on my response for two months.

  145. Just ended a brief FB back and forth with a guy I’ve known for 35 years. Topic was Trump firing Vindman et al, his argument was that Vindman and every other person testifying in any way negative toward Trump were just DC careerists looking to sell a book that they are going to write.
    They “took their shot at the king” and “missed”. The fact that they were (a) there in response to a subpoena from the House of Representatives, and (b) were under oath, was irrelevant.
    I can assure you that he is a very, very intelligent person. Very. He’s just got himself boxed into some weird corner so he has to tell lies, to himself and everybody else, to justify why he’s there.
    There is no way to make a dent in that kind of self-imposed mental blindness. People are just gonna have to figure this stuff out for themselves. Some will, some won’t.
    I’m not interested in shooting anybody, a la Thullen, so I’m going with ham sandwich. If the Martys and McKs of the world want to come along, fine. If they don’t, fine.
    Crazy reactionary nutjobs have always been with us. I’m tired of trying to have any kind of sensible conversation with them, I’m just going to try to find ways to work around them.
    Trump is a crook. He is a toxic, malicious, vindictive, greedy, vulgar asshole, and has no business being POTUS. I’m not interested in debating any of that with anybody, if you don’t see it already nothing I say is going to persuade you.

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Right?
    Spend money if you got it, go door to door, write postcards, blah-di-blah-blah-blah. Use the power you got and throw these farging bastages the hell out.

  146. Just ended a brief FB back and forth with a guy I’ve known for 35 years. Topic was Trump firing Vindman et al, his argument was that Vindman and every other person testifying in any way negative toward Trump were just DC careerists looking to sell a book that they are going to write.
    They “took their shot at the king” and “missed”. The fact that they were (a) there in response to a subpoena from the House of Representatives, and (b) were under oath, was irrelevant.
    I can assure you that he is a very, very intelligent person. Very. He’s just got himself boxed into some weird corner so he has to tell lies, to himself and everybody else, to justify why he’s there.
    There is no way to make a dent in that kind of self-imposed mental blindness. People are just gonna have to figure this stuff out for themselves. Some will, some won’t.
    I’m not interested in shooting anybody, a la Thullen, so I’m going with ham sandwich. If the Martys and McKs of the world want to come along, fine. If they don’t, fine.
    Crazy reactionary nutjobs have always been with us. I’m tired of trying to have any kind of sensible conversation with them, I’m just going to try to find ways to work around them.
    Trump is a crook. He is a toxic, malicious, vindictive, greedy, vulgar asshole, and has no business being POTUS. I’m not interested in debating any of that with anybody, if you don’t see it already nothing I say is going to persuade you.

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Right?
    Spend money if you got it, go door to door, write postcards, blah-di-blah-blah-blah. Use the power you got and throw these farging bastages the hell out.

  147. Trump is a crook. He is a toxic, malicious, vindictive, greedy, vulgar asshole, …
    So, one of the most transparent presidents ever. 🙂

  148. Trump is a crook. He is a toxic, malicious, vindictive, greedy, vulgar asshole, …
    So, one of the most transparent presidents ever. 🙂

  149. I agree with you russell, for the most part.
    But this: Crazy reactionary nutjobs have always been with us.
    Of course. But they haven’t had unmitigated and unashamed hold of all three branches of our government. Not in my lifetime. This is different from ever before, and much more dire.
    I’m not interested in shooting anybody
    I wouldn’t know how. I have a feeling that a lot of us are going to be marching to a fate that we didn’t anticipate.

  150. I agree with you russell, for the most part.
    But this: Crazy reactionary nutjobs have always been with us.
    Of course. But they haven’t had unmitigated and unashamed hold of all three branches of our government. Not in my lifetime. This is different from ever before, and much more dire.
    I’m not interested in shooting anybody
    I wouldn’t know how. I have a feeling that a lot of us are going to be marching to a fate that we didn’t anticipate.

  151. He is a toxic, malicious, vindictive, greedy, vulgar asshole
    More, he’s an embarrassment to other toxic, malicious, vindictive, greedy, vulgar assholes. Many of them are at least competent at something. He isn’t.

  152. He is a toxic, malicious, vindictive, greedy, vulgar asshole
    More, he’s an embarrassment to other toxic, malicious, vindictive, greedy, vulgar assholes. Many of them are at least competent at something. He isn’t.

  153. But they haven’t had unmitigated and unashamed hold of all three branches of our government. Not in my lifetime.
    2002-2004

  154. But they haven’t had unmitigated and unashamed hold of all three branches of our government. Not in my lifetime.
    2002-2004

  155. https://juanitajean.com/sign-of-the-week/
    Correction: I don’t WANT to shoot anyone. The Republican Party and its paramilitary forces among the anti-American population have threatened to shoot liberals of every race, creed and sexual persuasion and in fact have done so, and government employees, of which I was twice in my career. Their political operatives and the scum they elect run on platforms to shoot anyone who gets in the way of their malignant goals, and have been doing so for decades.
    Any killing I do will be in self-defense.
    All of Trump’s enemies should consider themselves the person he will shoot in the middle of Fifth Avenue, and for which he will not lose a single vote.
    Try me, assholes.

  156. https://juanitajean.com/sign-of-the-week/
    Correction: I don’t WANT to shoot anyone. The Republican Party and its paramilitary forces among the anti-American population have threatened to shoot liberals of every race, creed and sexual persuasion and in fact have done so, and government employees, of which I was twice in my career. Their political operatives and the scum they elect run on platforms to shoot anyone who gets in the way of their malignant goals, and have been doing so for decades.
    Any killing I do will be in self-defense.
    All of Trump’s enemies should consider themselves the person he will shoot in the middle of Fifth Avenue, and for which he will not lose a single vote.
    Try me, assholes.

  157. “How did this idiot get to be a pundit?”
    Give an idiot a pencil, a keyboard, and a microphone and the idiot becomes pundit, which I think was the founding principle of the internet as well.

  158. “How did this idiot get to be a pundit?”
    Give an idiot a pencil, a keyboard, and a microphone and the idiot becomes pundit, which I think was the founding principle of the internet as well.

  159. Apropos of russell’s 6:18, this BBC piece on how people actually change their minds:
    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180622-the-surprising-reason-people-change-their-minds
    Kristin Laurin of the University of British Columbia examined people’s attitudes before plastic water bottles were prohibited in San Francisco. The ban wasn’t favoured by everyone, but was introduced nonetheless. Just one day later, her team again tested public attitudes. Already, views had changed: people were less opposed. There hadn’t been time for people to change their behaviour to adjust to the practicalities of the ban. So it seemed their mindset itself had changed.
    In other words, we rationalise the things we feel stuck with. It’s as though we free up brain space to get on with our lives by deciding it’s not so bad, after all. Laurin likens this to a “psychological immune system”.
    We live in a retconned world. One look at the GOP should sink that home quite deeply.

  160. Apropos of russell’s 6:18, this BBC piece on how people actually change their minds:
    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180622-the-surprising-reason-people-change-their-minds
    Kristin Laurin of the University of British Columbia examined people’s attitudes before plastic water bottles were prohibited in San Francisco. The ban wasn’t favoured by everyone, but was introduced nonetheless. Just one day later, her team again tested public attitudes. Already, views had changed: people were less opposed. There hadn’t been time for people to change their behaviour to adjust to the practicalities of the ban. So it seemed their mindset itself had changed.
    In other words, we rationalise the things we feel stuck with. It’s as though we free up brain space to get on with our lives by deciding it’s not so bad, after all. Laurin likens this to a “psychological immune system”.
    We live in a retconned world. One look at the GOP should sink that home quite deeply.

  163. Georgia on my mind.
    Here’s a little something that may get JDT irate. Certainly it got me irate.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/02/11/puerto-rican-man-applied-license-georgia-officials-arrested-jailed-him-fraud/
    Get jailed for fraud because you fail a knowledge test about Puerto Rico? A “knowledge test” which includes questions like who is the governor . . . for which the “right” answer is the name of a guy who left that office in 2001?!?!? Why am I put in mind of the tests that used to be used to keep black voters off the rolls?

  164. Georgia on my mind.
    Here’s a little something that may get JDT irate. Certainly it got me irate.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/02/11/puerto-rican-man-applied-license-georgia-officials-arrested-jailed-him-fraud/
    Get jailed for fraud because you fail a knowledge test about Puerto Rico? A “knowledge test” which includes questions like who is the governor . . . for which the “right” answer is the name of a guy who left that office in 2001?!?!? Why am I put in mind of the tests that used to be used to keep black voters off the rolls?

  165. Hey, chill, wj.
    It’s just white conservative anti-American confederate republican racists doing their thing.
    True, we should have executed all of them when Lincoln was assassinated, but now we’re stuck with them.

  166. Hey, chill, wj.
    It’s just white conservative anti-American confederate republican racists doing their thing.
    True, we should have executed all of them when Lincoln was assassinated, but now we’re stuck with them.

  167. I can assure you that he is a very, very intelligent person. Very. He’s just got himself boxed into some weird corner so he has to tell lies, to himself and everybody else, to justify why he’s there.
    This also describes someone I know, and love, and have known since childhood. She saw Trump (partly) for what he was at first (“an untalented, reality-TV personality”), but as soon as he won the R nomination she was all in for him. I haven’t discussed it with her for a couple of years because I don’t want the aggravation, but I have no reason to think her opinions and rationale (if you can call it that) are any different from those of russell’s friend. It’s really hard to understand…

  168. I can assure you that he is a very, very intelligent person. Very. He’s just got himself boxed into some weird corner so he has to tell lies, to himself and everybody else, to justify why he’s there.
    This also describes someone I know, and love, and have known since childhood. She saw Trump (partly) for what he was at first (“an untalented, reality-TV personality”), but as soon as he won the R nomination she was all in for him. I haven’t discussed it with her for a couple of years because I don’t want the aggravation, but I have no reason to think her opinions and rationale (if you can call it that) are any different from those of russell’s friend. It’s really hard to understand…

  177. trump-often-asked-reince-priebus-how-badgers-work-report
    Clearly a misheard conversation, where Trump bellowed
    BADGERS? BADGERS?!?! WE DON’T NEED NO STINKIN’ BADGERS!!

  178. trump-often-asked-reince-priebus-how-badgers-work-report
    Clearly a misheard conversation, where Trump bellowed
    BADGERS? BADGERS?!?! WE DON’T NEED NO STINKIN’ BADGERS!!

  181. Here’s a shout out to rapidly metastasizing malignant cancer cells and bullets as agents of disruptive change for the better in pigfucking republican America:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/limbaugh-spews-homophobic-drivel-about-buttigieg-after-receiving-medal-of-freedom
    The doctor who deliberately fucks up Limbaugh’s cancer (he faked the diagnosis to get the medal) treatment (it’s not the tumors that are diseased, it’s the piece of dog shit they are growing in that requires elimination) will receive the Medal of Freedom for his or her service to the country.
    Please do not let Limbaugh have access to morphine to ease his pain.
    Fucking horrible pain is what he deserves.

  182. Here’s a shout out to rapidly metastasizing malignant cancer cells and bullets as agents of disruptive change for the better in pigfucking republican America:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/limbaugh-spews-homophobic-drivel-about-buttigieg-after-receiving-medal-of-freedom
    The doctor who deliberately fucks up Limbaugh’s cancer (he faked the diagnosis to get the medal) treatment (it’s not the tumors that are diseased, it’s the piece of dog shit they are growing in that requires elimination) will receive the Medal of Freedom for his or her service to the country.
    Please do not let Limbaugh have access to morphine to ease his pain.
    Fucking horrible pain is what he deserves.

  183. Come on, cleek. Doesn’t that seem to you to be a little above Trump’s intellectual level? Sure, it’s a video. But there’s all those words on the screen — way more that he is usually comfortable with in a briefing.

  184. Come on, cleek. Doesn’t that seem to you to be a little above Trump’s intellectual level? Sure, it’s a video. But there’s all those words on the screen — way more that he is usually comfortable with in a briefing.

  185. “Trump also wanted to know if the badger had a ‘personality’ or if it was boring,” according to the authors. “An obviously enthralled president would stare at Priebus as the aide struggled for sufficiently placating answers, all the while trying to gently veer the conversation back to whether we were going to do a troop surge in Afghanistan or strip millions of Americans of health-care coverage.”
    Alarming Trump mental-deterioration stuff aside, I was particularly pleased by the correction:
    This post has been updated to include that badgers are friends with coyotes sometimes.

  186. “Trump also wanted to know if the badger had a ‘personality’ or if it was boring,” according to the authors. “An obviously enthralled president would stare at Priebus as the aide struggled for sufficiently placating answers, all the while trying to gently veer the conversation back to whether we were going to do a troop surge in Afghanistan or strip millions of Americans of health-care coverage.”
    Alarming Trump mental-deterioration stuff aside, I was particularly pleased by the correction:
    This post has been updated to include that badgers are friends with coyotes sometimes.

  187. Unless the wheels come completely off (not out of the question) at some point there will be another (D) president.
    Can’t wait until he or she wears a tan suit.

  188. Unless the wheels come completely off (not out of the question) at some point there will be another (D) president.
    Can’t wait until he or she wears a tan suit.

  189. And just think. If she’s female there will be SO much more to criticize about her wardrobe — no matter what she wears.
    After all, men’s clothing is so much more standardized. Wear a dark blue suit and a tie and you’re probably good. (Although I note that Trump’s tie has generated a certain amount of sneering. Clothing sniping isn’t exclusive to Republicans.)

  190. And just think. If she’s female there will be SO much more to criticize about her wardrobe — no matter what she wears.
    After all, men’s clothing is so much more standardized. Wear a dark blue suit and a tie and you’re probably good. (Although I note that Trump’s tie has generated a certain amount of sneering. Clothing sniping isn’t exclusive to Republicans.)

  191. Warren just wears the same thing all the time: black pants, black shirt, solid-colored coat.
    “Oooh! it’s a RED day for Liz! Look out!”

  192. Warren just wears the same thing all the time: black pants, black shirt, solid-colored coat.
    “Oooh! it’s a RED day for Liz! Look out!”

  195. Republican fascist filth love them some tunics.
    https://digbysblog.net/2020/02/banana-republic-peel-trips-bill-barr/
    I have a premonition regarding the next footwear style they are going to adopt in which to do their funny walks.
    This bears watching:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-fbi-makes-a-bizarre-claim-about-pro-choice-terrorism
    They are putting in place the authoritarian government infrastructure, on behalf of government-hating conservatives, to enforce the nationwide outlawing of abortion and persecute and prosecute all resistance to their regulatory junta.
    They will arrest and execute all abortion providers and jail all women and possibly execute who seek successfully seek abortion.
    Birth control will be next.
    There is a reason Trump and big-haired evangelical men in their private rapey lives bugger their women instead of having what passes for normal sex in the Bible.
    Jesus said “suffer all the children to come onto me. Hold the condoms.”
    In Ohio, gynecologists and obstetricians fear the new legal regime the filth are attempting to legislate, because women will die.
    It will be murder and it will be avenged.
    Conservatives will have to hide behind government national security to reach their ends.
    Just to throw a spaniard in the works, I’m not so hot on abortion (that’s what you call choice), but Roe versus Wade must stand and abortion must remain legal.
    Otherwise, only republican mistresses, wives, and daughters will have access to abortion.

  196. Republican fascist filth love them some tunics.
    https://digbysblog.net/2020/02/banana-republic-peel-trips-bill-barr/
    I have a premonition regarding the next footwear style they are going to adopt in which to do their funny walks.
    This bears watching:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-fbi-makes-a-bizarre-claim-about-pro-choice-terrorism
    They are putting in place the authoritarian government infrastructure, on behalf of government-hating conservatives, to enforce the nationwide outlawing of abortion and persecute and prosecute all resistance to their regulatory junta.
    They will arrest and execute all abortion providers and jail all women and possibly execute who seek successfully seek abortion.
    Birth control will be next.
    There is a reason Trump and big-haired evangelical men in their private rapey lives bugger their women instead of having what passes for normal sex in the Bible.
    Jesus said “suffer all the children to come onto me. Hold the condoms.”
    In Ohio, gynecologists and obstetricians fear the new legal regime the filth are attempting to legislate, because women will die.
    It will be murder and it will be avenged.
    Conservatives will have to hide behind government national security to reach their ends.
    Just to throw a spaniard in the works, I’m not so hot on abortion (that’s what you call choice), but Roe versus Wade must stand and abortion must remain legal.
    Otherwise, only republican mistresses, wives, and daughters will have access to abortion.

  197. Here’s a really cute approach to dirty tricks on the immigration front.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-trump-administrations-kafkaesque-new-way-to-thwart-visa-applications/2020/02/13/190a3862-4ea3-11ea-bf44-f5043eb3918a_story.html
    I was particularly taken with the one where someone with only 3 siblings got rejected because they left blank the available space to name a 4th one. Although the one where someone who has no middle name (like me) was rejected for leaving that space blank, that hit closer to home. Apparently the desire is to have a large population whose legal middle name is None.
    I wonder how long before they decide that too many folks who are being granted residence for helping the police (which is who is being targetted here) have picked up on this trick. And start rejecting them for “falsifying” their applications by claiming “None” or “N/A” as a middle name. And just think, they could apply that approach to any Federal form submitted by someone they don’t like.

  198. Here’s a really cute approach to dirty tricks on the immigration front.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-trump-administrations-kafkaesque-new-way-to-thwart-visa-applications/2020/02/13/190a3862-4ea3-11ea-bf44-f5043eb3918a_story.html
    I was particularly taken with the one where someone with only 3 siblings got rejected because they left blank the available space to name a 4th one. Although the one where someone who has no middle name (like me) was rejected for leaving that space blank, that hit closer to home. Apparently the desire is to have a large population whose legal middle name is None.
    I wonder how long before they decide that too many folks who are being granted residence for helping the police (which is who is being targetted here) have picked up on this trick. And start rejecting them for “falsifying” their applications by claiming “None” or “N/A” as a middle name. And just think, they could apply that approach to any Federal form submitted by someone they don’t like.

  199. from wj’s cite:

    It’s not clear what problem this new policy was intended to solve.

    Actually, it is clear. This administration doesn’t want poor people, brown people, non-Christian people, or people from shit-hole countries coming here.
    Brown Hindus from south Asia are maybe OK if they can code.
    They are going to make it as difficult for those people to come here as they possibly can. Including by defying the law and just kicking people who actually have a legal right to be here the hell out.
    The arbitrariness of this particular regulation is a feature, not a bug. If you can’t figure out what the process is supposed to be, or if the process itself doesn’t a lot of sense, you’re that much more likely to get it wrong. Which will result in your being excluded.
    They don’t like poor people, brown people, non-Christian people, or people from shit-hole countries. They don’t want them to come here.
    Full stop.

  200. from wj’s cite:

    It’s not clear what problem this new policy was intended to solve.

    Actually, it is clear. This administration doesn’t want poor people, brown people, non-Christian people, or people from shit-hole countries coming here.
    Brown Hindus from south Asia are maybe OK if they can code.
    They are going to make it as difficult for those people to come here as they possibly can. Including by defying the law and just kicking people who actually have a legal right to be here the hell out.
    The arbitrariness of this particular regulation is a feature, not a bug. If you can’t figure out what the process is supposed to be, or if the process itself doesn’t a lot of sense, you’re that much more likely to get it wrong. Which will result in your being excluded.
    They don’t like poor people, brown people, non-Christian people, or people from shit-hole countries. They don’t want them to come here.
    Full stop.

  203. russell: The arbitrariness of this particular regulation is a feature, not a bug. If you can’t figure out what the process is supposed to be, or if the process itself doesn’t a lot of sense, you’re that much more likely to get it wrong.
    I think Hannah Arendt identified that as one of the key characteristics of “law” in totalitarian systems.

  204. russell: The arbitrariness of this particular regulation is a feature, not a bug. If you can’t figure out what the process is supposed to be, or if the process itself doesn’t a lot of sense, you’re that much more likely to get it wrong.
    I think Hannah Arendt identified that as one of the key characteristics of “law” in totalitarian systems.

  205. An interesting tidbit from Gallup:

    Only 45 percent of Americans say they will vote for a “‘well-qualified” candidate who is a socialist . . . . More Americans say they would vote for a candidate who is an atheist (60 percent), a Muslim (66 percent), over the age of 70 (69), under 40 (70), gay or lesbian (78), an evangelical Christian (80), a woman (93), Jewish (93), Hispanic (94), Catholic (95) or black (96.)

    It doesn’t really matter whether Sanders really is a socialist (however defined).
    And it doesn’t matter whether anything he talks about could actually get passed. When you are trying to win an election, stuff like this shouldn’t be ignored.

  206. An interesting tidbit from Gallup:

    Only 45 percent of Americans say they will vote for a “‘well-qualified” candidate who is a socialist . . . . More Americans say they would vote for a candidate who is an atheist (60 percent), a Muslim (66 percent), over the age of 70 (69), under 40 (70), gay or lesbian (78), an evangelical Christian (80), a woman (93), Jewish (93), Hispanic (94), Catholic (95) or black (96.)

    It doesn’t really matter whether Sanders really is a socialist (however defined).
    And it doesn’t matter whether anything he talks about could actually get passed. When you are trying to win an election, stuff like this shouldn’t be ignored.

  207. Here’s a really cute approach to dirty tricks on the immigration front.
    The applicants encounter all that if they make it past various police agencies.
    “Police also undermine the U-Visa program, according to a December 2019 report from the Center for Investigative Reporting. Its

    analysis of policies from more than 100 agencies serving large immigrant communities found that nearly 1 of every 4 create barriers never envisioned under the U visa program. A review based on hundreds of police records and nearly 60 interviews found that victims are at the mercy of whatever internal rules police choose.”

    How the Government Is Using Nonsense Rules to Keep Out Immigrants

  208. Here’s a really cute approach to dirty tricks on the immigration front.
    The applicants encounter all that if they make it past various police agencies.
    “Police also undermine the U-Visa program, according to a December 2019 report from the Center for Investigative Reporting. Its

    analysis of policies from more than 100 agencies serving large immigrant communities found that nearly 1 of every 4 create barriers never envisioned under the U visa program. A review based on hundreds of police records and nearly 60 interviews found that victims are at the mercy of whatever internal rules police choose.”

    How the Government Is Using Nonsense Rules to Keep Out Immigrants

  209. When you are trying to win an election, stuff like this shouldn’t be ignored.
    LOL…so, what is the line on rapist, thief, and narcissistic asshole?

  210. When you are trying to win an election, stuff like this shouldn’t be ignored.
    LOL…so, what is the line on rapist, thief, and narcissistic asshole?

  211. so, what is the line on rapist, thief, and narcissistic asshole?
    Traditionally, cult leaders are forgiven such minor peccadilloes. And a reactionary party is nothing if not traditional…. 😉
    Still, I’m guessing that you aren’t looking to start a competing cult party.

  212. so, what is the line on rapist, thief, and narcissistic asshole?
    Traditionally, cult leaders are forgiven such minor peccadilloes. And a reactionary party is nothing if not traditional…. 😉
    Still, I’m guessing that you aren’t looking to start a competing cult party.

  213. It doesn’t really matter whether Sanders really is a socialist (however defined).
    I see this, or something substantively indistinguishable, frequently, as if Sanders isn’t “that kind” of socialist, rather he is a “different kind” of socialist.
    None of this seems to be much of a big deal, the farther left one goes. However, it is not nothing. If Sanders isn’t a true socialist, why has he been calling himself exactly that his entire political life. The guy honeymooned in the Soviet Union (imagine a Republican somehow contriving to travel back in time and honeymoon in Nazi Germany); he’s been a fan of Sandinistas, Castro, Chavez and all the rest all of his life.
    If he doesn’t know what being a socialist means, that would be even worse. That would make him profoundly stupid and unserious. We already have that.
    Socialism cannot coexist with our constitution. It has never worked and never will work. It depends, ultimately, on compelled productivity and compelled redistribution. Platitudes about the Scandinavian Model don’t hold up and besides, my sense is that all four Scandinavian countries have moved more and more toward market economies the last 20 years or so. Two are NATO members and one has had the pleasure of being invaded by a socialist regime in living memory.
    If you think Republicans have lost their collective minds backing Trump, the Bern is, in his own way, every bit as bad if not worse.
    Trump is a bad person with no actual program.
    Sanders is a weird but personally benign person with a program that is a proven disaster.
    Trump is term-limited, the damage from a socialist in charge of writing regulations could take years and maybe even decades to cure.
    Happy VD.

  214. It doesn’t really matter whether Sanders really is a socialist (however defined).
    I see this, or something substantively indistinguishable, frequently, as if Sanders isn’t “that kind” of socialist, rather he is a “different kind” of socialist.
    None of this seems to be much of a big deal, the farther left one goes. However, it is not nothing. If Sanders isn’t a true socialist, why has he been calling himself exactly that his entire political life. The guy honeymooned in the Soviet Union (imagine a Republican somehow contriving to travel back in time and honeymoon in Nazi Germany); he’s been a fan of Sandinistas, Castro, Chavez and all the rest all of his life.
    If he doesn’t know what being a socialist means, that would be even worse. That would make him profoundly stupid and unserious. We already have that.
    Socialism cannot coexist with our constitution. It has never worked and never will work. It depends, ultimately, on compelled productivity and compelled redistribution. Platitudes about the Scandinavian Model don’t hold up and besides, my sense is that all four Scandinavian countries have moved more and more toward market economies the last 20 years or so. Two are NATO members and one has had the pleasure of being invaded by a socialist regime in living memory.
    If you think Republicans have lost their collective minds backing Trump, the Bern is, in his own way, every bit as bad if not worse.
    Trump is a bad person with no actual program.
    Sanders is a weird but personally benign person with a program that is a proven disaster.
    Trump is term-limited, the damage from a socialist in charge of writing regulations could take years and maybe even decades to cure.
    Happy VD.

  215. (imagine a Republican somehow contriving to travel back in time and honeymoon in Nazi Germany)
    I actually have no problem at all imagining that. Lack of internet and cellphone access would of course be rather inconvenient.
    And Nazism had lots of sympathizers in the US then (and it’s starting to become popular among ‘respectable’ people again too).

  216. (imagine a Republican somehow contriving to travel back in time and honeymoon in Nazi Germany)
    I actually have no problem at all imagining that. Lack of internet and cellphone access would of course be rather inconvenient.
    And Nazism had lots of sympathizers in the US then (and it’s starting to become popular among ‘respectable’ people again too).

  217. Trump is term-limited
    Yes, and the first thing Comrade Sanders will do is abolish term limits and declare himself El Presidente for life. Something Trump would never even joke about doing.

  218. Trump is term-limited
    Yes, and the first thing Comrade Sanders will do is abolish term limits and declare himself El Presidente for life. Something Trump would never even joke about doing.

  219. LOL.
    But seriously, McKinney, if you’re still around and prepared to answer, Marty has said he’d vote for Klobuchar – would you?

  220. LOL.
    But seriously, McKinney, if you’re still around and prepared to answer, Marty has said he’d vote for Klobuchar – would you?

  221. In what way is Bernie’s program a proven disaster? The examples of Medicare, Medicaid and SOcial security? Responsible stewardship of public land? Responsible regulation of polluters? Tax rates that don’t distribute wealth upwards? It is an article of faith with some Republicans that Berni’s policies==which are in the tradition of FDR–will be disastrous. But they can never explain how or why

  222. In what way is Bernie’s program a proven disaster? The examples of Medicare, Medicaid and SOcial security? Responsible stewardship of public land? Responsible regulation of polluters? Tax rates that don’t distribute wealth upwards? It is an article of faith with some Republicans that Berni’s policies==which are in the tradition of FDR–will be disastrous. But they can never explain how or why

  223. In what way is Bernie’s program a proven disaster?
    You just need to follow the chain of reasoning.

    • Bernie says he’s a socialist.
    • Therefore his program, regardless of what it actually entails, is socialism.
    • Socialism is the same as communism. (These being people who distain nuance.)
    • Communism is what the Soviet Union claimed to have.
    • The USSR was a disaster, economically and otherwise.
    • QED

    I suspect that the reason you don’t get an explanation is that a couple of those steps are chancy at best. But I’d bet it accurately reflects how the reached their conclusion.
    I confess that I think several parts of Bernie’s program are suboptimal. But my larger disinclination towards him has to do with his record of poor judgement, especially when it comes to foreign affairs. And I’d be a lot less negative if he showed signs of reaching out beyond his base. As it is, he looks more like another divider than someone interested in uniting the country. Not that doing so will be easy, or perhaps even possible. But I’d like to see someone who thought it important to at least try.
    Also, I have doubts about his ability to effectively manage the Federal government. While he would unquestionably do better than the incumbent, that’s an extremely low bar.

  224. In what way is Bernie’s program a proven disaster?
    You just need to follow the chain of reasoning.

    • Bernie says he’s a socialist.
    • Therefore his program, regardless of what it actually entails, is socialism.
    • Socialism is the same as communism. (These being people who distain nuance.)
    • Communism is what the Soviet Union claimed to have.
    • The USSR was a disaster, economically and otherwise.
    • QED

    I suspect that the reason you don’t get an explanation is that a couple of those steps are chancy at best. But I’d bet it accurately reflects how the reached their conclusion.
    I confess that I think several parts of Bernie’s program are suboptimal. But my larger disinclination towards him has to do with his record of poor judgement, especially when it comes to foreign affairs. And I’d be a lot less negative if he showed signs of reaching out beyond his base. As it is, he looks more like another divider than someone interested in uniting the country. Not that doing so will be easy, or perhaps even possible. But I’d like to see someone who thought it important to at least try.
    Also, I have doubts about his ability to effectively manage the Federal government. While he would unquestionably do better than the incumbent, that’s an extremely low bar.

  225. McTX: Socialism cannot coexist with our constitution.
    This is an interesting assertion. As a lawyer, McKinney can surely cite the exact words in the Constitution which support it.
    Also McTX: If he doesn’t know what being a socialist means …
    McKinney may define “socialism” however he likes, but who’s to say McKinney’s is the One True Definition?
    –TP

  226. McTX: Socialism cannot coexist with our constitution.
    This is an interesting assertion. As a lawyer, McKinney can surely cite the exact words in the Constitution which support it.
    Also McTX: If he doesn’t know what being a socialist means …
    McKinney may define “socialism” however he likes, but who’s to say McKinney’s is the One True Definition?
    –TP

  227. McTex comment is rather striking in its ignorance but unfortunately indicative of what’s surely to come should Sanders win the nomination.
    Here’s some background:
    https://www.vox.com/2015/10/14/9530787/socialism-history-explained
    Countries which had long periods of democratic socialist governments include:
    UK, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Austria, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Israel, Portugal, Netherlands
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_democratic_socialist_parties_that_have_governed
    Now, granted, from a marketing point of view, it might be advantageous to ditch ‘socialism’ and replace it with ‘social democracy’.

  228. McTex comment is rather striking in its ignorance but unfortunately indicative of what’s surely to come should Sanders win the nomination.
    Here’s some background:
    https://www.vox.com/2015/10/14/9530787/socialism-history-explained
    Countries which had long periods of democratic socialist governments include:
    UK, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Austria, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Israel, Portugal, Netherlands
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_democratic_socialist_parties_that_have_governed
    Now, granted, from a marketing point of view, it might be advantageous to ditch ‘socialism’ and replace it with ‘social democracy’.

  231. McTX: Socialism cannot coexist with our constitution.
    What I’m finding so sweet and quaint is the concern about what can or cannot coexist with your constitution, while Mitch and his merry R men gleefully a) ignore and b) trample all over the constitution and their oaths to protect and defend it.

  232. McTX: Socialism cannot coexist with our constitution.
    What I’m finding so sweet and quaint is the concern about what can or cannot coexist with your constitution, while Mitch and his merry R men gleefully a) ignore and b) trample all over the constitution and their oaths to protect and defend it.

  233. Trump is term-limited, the damage from a socialist in charge of writing regulations could take years and maybe even decades to cure.
    Federal courts, EPA, State Dept, DoEd, tariffs that have sent agricultural contracts and development elsewhere, the precedent to undermine oversight and Constitutional balance of power, leaving our allies to roadside slaughter… yeah, all that stuff will see an immediate return to normalcy after 4(?) more years of Trump.
    To be fair, how many decades did it take to cure ourselves of that disastrous scoundrel, FDR?
    FWIW,
    “Democratic socialism, Sanders said, is not tied to any Marxist belief or the abolition of capitalism. “I don’t believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal,” he said.”
    I remember when the Kansas experiment was going to turn that state into an economic Shangri-La. When it turned out to be a complete disaster, it was republisplained to me that “it’s complicated” and that the policies were actually sound and the failure to deliver was because reasons.
    Universal healthcare, education – academic and technical- without crushing debt, access to utilities, a more environmentally-friendly economy, maybe an energy grid updated for both functionality and security… these are, to me, worthwhile things. And I don’t think they are impossible or even impractical things.
    America is #1! We can do anything (except when we can’t)!.
    Let’s try Kansas again. This time…

  234. Trump is term-limited, the damage from a socialist in charge of writing regulations could take years and maybe even decades to cure.
    Federal courts, EPA, State Dept, DoEd, tariffs that have sent agricultural contracts and development elsewhere, the precedent to undermine oversight and Constitutional balance of power, leaving our allies to roadside slaughter… yeah, all that stuff will see an immediate return to normalcy after 4(?) more years of Trump.
    To be fair, how many decades did it take to cure ourselves of that disastrous scoundrel, FDR?
    FWIW,
    “Democratic socialism, Sanders said, is not tied to any Marxist belief or the abolition of capitalism. “I don’t believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal,” he said.”
    I remember when the Kansas experiment was going to turn that state into an economic Shangri-La. When it turned out to be a complete disaster, it was republisplained to me that “it’s complicated” and that the policies were actually sound and the failure to deliver was because reasons.
    Universal healthcare, education – academic and technical- without crushing debt, access to utilities, a more environmentally-friendly economy, maybe an energy grid updated for both functionality and security… these are, to me, worthwhile things. And I don’t think they are impossible or even impractical things.
    America is #1! We can do anything (except when we can’t)!.
    Let’s try Kansas again. This time…

  235. Now, granted, from a marketing point of view, it might be advantageous to ditch ‘socialism’ and replace it with ‘social democracy’.
    And it wouldn’t be any less accurate. Perhaps more so, depending on how you interpret the somewhat fuzzy distinctions between socialism and social democracy.
    (I tend to think of socialism as being defined primarily by the workers/the state owning the means of production, but I’m far from an expert on the subject. Either way, I’m squarely against running in shoes made by the US Federal Footwear Ministry.)

  236. Now, granted, from a marketing point of view, it might be advantageous to ditch ‘socialism’ and replace it with ‘social democracy’.
    And it wouldn’t be any less accurate. Perhaps more so, depending on how you interpret the somewhat fuzzy distinctions between socialism and social democracy.
    (I tend to think of socialism as being defined primarily by the workers/the state owning the means of production, but I’m far from an expert on the subject. Either way, I’m squarely against running in shoes made by the US Federal Footwear Ministry.)

  237. Ok, maybe I’m ignorant too, because last time I checked, Bernie still has trouble clarifying his socialist vision for America:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/what-bernie-sanderss-socialism-speech-ignored/591547/,
    He is the only candidate in his party refusing to recognize Guaido and he won’t call Maduro a dictator. So, if I have this right, Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Cuba and Turkey support Maduro. Guaido has the support of, among others, the U.S., Canada, Austria, Britain, the Czech Republic, Estonia, France, Germany, Poland, Portugal, and (wait for it), Denmark and Sweden. Norway, of course, was brokering talks.
    In the past, he has generally stated that he favors public ownership of the means of production but now says silly things such as “I didn’t do that as mayor”, not really answering the question. When pressed about “his” socialism, Sanders tends to speak in broad platitudes that answer nothing, such as saying everyone should be able to live in dignity and security and that he favors democracy, both political and economic. He says we can learn a lot from Scandinavia, but isn’t clear on whether the learning stops there.
    Based on his long-standing lack of criticism of socialist disasters, I don’t think reading his platform truly answers what Sanders actually believes. He gushed about the Soviet Union after his 1988 trip, has apparently never met fellow Vermont resident Solzhenitsyn, and “felt sick” listening to Kennedy and Nixon discussing the Cuban revolution.
    I toured the Soviet Union just before the collapse. It was an unmitigated disaster, the amazing history and culture of the Russians (and others) aside. I, for one, want to hear Bernie clearly distance himself from his former ideology if he in fact believes differently today. Calling out Maduro would be a start.
    Is that enough nuance?

  238. Ok, maybe I’m ignorant too, because last time I checked, Bernie still has trouble clarifying his socialist vision for America:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/what-bernie-sanderss-socialism-speech-ignored/591547/,
    He is the only candidate in his party refusing to recognize Guaido and he won’t call Maduro a dictator. So, if I have this right, Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Cuba and Turkey support Maduro. Guaido has the support of, among others, the U.S., Canada, Austria, Britain, the Czech Republic, Estonia, France, Germany, Poland, Portugal, and (wait for it), Denmark and Sweden. Norway, of course, was brokering talks.
    In the past, he has generally stated that he favors public ownership of the means of production but now says silly things such as “I didn’t do that as mayor”, not really answering the question. When pressed about “his” socialism, Sanders tends to speak in broad platitudes that answer nothing, such as saying everyone should be able to live in dignity and security and that he favors democracy, both political and economic. He says we can learn a lot from Scandinavia, but isn’t clear on whether the learning stops there.
    Based on his long-standing lack of criticism of socialist disasters, I don’t think reading his platform truly answers what Sanders actually believes. He gushed about the Soviet Union after his 1988 trip, has apparently never met fellow Vermont resident Solzhenitsyn, and “felt sick” listening to Kennedy and Nixon discussing the Cuban revolution.
    I toured the Soviet Union just before the collapse. It was an unmitigated disaster, the amazing history and culture of the Russians (and others) aside. I, for one, want to hear Bernie clearly distance himself from his former ideology if he in fact believes differently today. Calling out Maduro would be a start.
    Is that enough nuance?

  239. Socialism:

    any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

    Sanders:

    I don’t believe government should own the means of production

    The ways in which the word ‘socialism’ are construed definitely does add to the confusion, but Sanders is not a socialist in any of the senses that McK alludes to.
    Also:
    We’re unlikely to achieve anything similar to the Scandinavian model, because we don’t have the culture for it. Changing policy is a big lift, changing culture is exponentially larger. It takes generations, if achievable at all.
    At this point, we’re lucky we haven’t slidden back to the days of lynching and HUAC and J Edgar’s FBI and Cointelpro. Not that this administration isn’t giving it the good old college try. We have slidden back to camps for suspicious foreigners with the wrong skin color, and that should be a red flag for all of us.
    The fact that this toxic ass is the POTUS still makes me shake my head every day. He has exposed and validated the worst in us. The fact that his support has remained unshakeable, even if still a minority of the population, is to our shame.
    We have a republic, if we can keep it. That’s a big if, at this point.
    There is no comparison to make between the potential harm of four more years of Trump, vs any imaginable (D) candidate, including Sanders. The dangers, such as they are in the case of the (D)’s, are of utterly different kinds.

  240. Socialism:

    any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

    Sanders:

    I don’t believe government should own the means of production

    The ways in which the word ‘socialism’ are construed definitely does add to the confusion, but Sanders is not a socialist in any of the senses that McK alludes to.
    Also:
    We’re unlikely to achieve anything similar to the Scandinavian model, because we don’t have the culture for it. Changing policy is a big lift, changing culture is exponentially larger. It takes generations, if achievable at all.
    At this point, we’re lucky we haven’t slidden back to the days of lynching and HUAC and J Edgar’s FBI and Cointelpro. Not that this administration isn’t giving it the good old college try. We have slidden back to camps for suspicious foreigners with the wrong skin color, and that should be a red flag for all of us.
    The fact that this toxic ass is the POTUS still makes me shake my head every day. He has exposed and validated the worst in us. The fact that his support has remained unshakeable, even if still a minority of the population, is to our shame.
    We have a republic, if we can keep it. That’s a big if, at this point.
    There is no comparison to make between the potential harm of four more years of Trump, vs any imaginable (D) candidate, including Sanders. The dangers, such as they are in the case of the (D)’s, are of utterly different kinds.

  241. UK, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Austria, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Israel, Portugal, Netherlands
    Social welfare states with lightly to heavily regulated capitalist economies.

  242. UK, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Austria, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Israel, Portugal, Netherlands
    Social welfare states with lightly to heavily regulated capitalist economies.

  243. broad platitudes that answer nothing, such as saying everyone should be able to live in dignity and security and that he favors democracy, both political and economic.
    All public policy proceeds from principles that, stated as such, are broad platitudes.
    Listen to any speeches by Reagan? Or either Bush? Or Trump?
    As those things go, I find Sanders’ to be more than congenial.

  244. broad platitudes that answer nothing, such as saying everyone should be able to live in dignity and security and that he favors democracy, both political and economic.
    All public policy proceeds from principles that, stated as such, are broad platitudes.
    Listen to any speeches by Reagan? Or either Bush? Or Trump?
    As those things go, I find Sanders’ to be more than congenial.

  245. Along with the fact that however socialist Sanders is or isn’t, there are severe constraints, irrespective of Democratic party control of both chambers, on his ability as President to pursue socialism. There isn’t going to be a socialist majority in Congress.
    What concerns me more is that his presidency would be a series of paralysing battles with Congress.
    (I note he has advocated at least partial nationalisation of the energy sector, and his spending plans imply a much larger state sector overall, FWIW.)

  246. Along with the fact that however socialist Sanders is or isn’t, there are severe constraints, irrespective of Democratic party control of both chambers, on his ability as President to pursue socialism. There isn’t going to be a socialist majority in Congress.
    What concerns me more is that his presidency would be a series of paralysing battles with Congress.
    (I note he has advocated at least partial nationalisation of the energy sector, and his spending plans imply a much larger state sector overall, FWIW.)

  247. Ok, good enough. He’s a “socialist” but not really a SOCIALIST. Rather, he’s just a bog standard New Deal Democrat. A Democratic Socialist who just happens to admire Castro, Chaves, Ortega et al. But really, just a New Deal Democrat. Who inadvertantly honeymooned in the USSR. Because it is such a nice place.
    But, he just wants basic fairness, not a revolution. Good to know.
    I tend to think of socialism as being defined primarily by the workers/the state owning the means of production, but I’m far from an expert on the subject.
    This is pretty much the theoretical the definition of socialism. Since the conversion from theory to practice requires confiscating all property and directing all economic activity centrally, the by product is scarcity, starvation, repression and dictatorship.
    Since a Socialist is now leading the Dem pack, the concept is being fluffed, combed and smoothed over to hide its historic failures. It is just bizarre to say that a man who is qualified to be in the white-house has spent the last 50 years confused about the meaning of the affiliation he has always claimed.
    Name calling and dismissiveness is not a substantive answer.
    To address TP:
    Read the 5th and 14th amendments about depriving someone of their property without due process.
    You’re right–I don’t get to pick the definition of socialism, that’s already been done. HSH quoted it correctly.
    The flip side is that the Dems and especially the Progs don’t get to redefine it to make it more palatable. He picked that label decades ago. I’d be a fool to think he’s changed his spots at this late date.
    To address GFTNC re Klobuchar: I don’t know enough about her. So, for the time being, the answer is “maybe, it will depend.”
    To address WJ–how is Bernie different than Corbyn substantively? What do you know, exactly, about socialism, that makes it ok?
    To everyone who thinks the Bern is ok: how the F do you pay for all the stuff he wants to do and still have money left over to fight the existential threat of climate change? Parenthetically, if you support BS’ program (now, that’s a convenient set of initials if I may say so), and if you expect to be taken seriously on climate change, you really have a lot of explaining to do.
    If your answer includes massive wealth transfers, then include in your answer why the dumbasses who amassed all that wealth are going to submit a second time to being shaken down. Because, you can only take someone’s assets once. Then what?
    Novakant, since you, unlike me, are not ignorant, feel free to explain in your own words how this gets pulled off.
    Russell, if he’s not the kind of socialist I say he is, i.e. the only kind of actual “socialist” there is by definition, then what kind is he?
    Everyone on the left is projecting their own personal wish lists on BS.
    My prediction: if BS gets the nomination, it will be McGovern Redux.

  248. Ok, good enough. He’s a “socialist” but not really a SOCIALIST. Rather, he’s just a bog standard New Deal Democrat. A Democratic Socialist who just happens to admire Castro, Chaves, Ortega et al. But really, just a New Deal Democrat. Who inadvertantly honeymooned in the USSR. Because it is such a nice place.
    But, he just wants basic fairness, not a revolution. Good to know.
    I tend to think of socialism as being defined primarily by the workers/the state owning the means of production, but I’m far from an expert on the subject.
    This is pretty much the theoretical the definition of socialism. Since the conversion from theory to practice requires confiscating all property and directing all economic activity centrally, the by product is scarcity, starvation, repression and dictatorship.
    Since a Socialist is now leading the Dem pack, the concept is being fluffed, combed and smoothed over to hide its historic failures. It is just bizarre to say that a man who is qualified to be in the white-house has spent the last 50 years confused about the meaning of the affiliation he has always claimed.
    Name calling and dismissiveness is not a substantive answer.
    To address TP:
    Read the 5th and 14th amendments about depriving someone of their property without due process.
    You’re right–I don’t get to pick the definition of socialism, that’s already been done. HSH quoted it correctly.
    The flip side is that the Dems and especially the Progs don’t get to redefine it to make it more palatable. He picked that label decades ago. I’d be a fool to think he’s changed his spots at this late date.
    To address GFTNC re Klobuchar: I don’t know enough about her. So, for the time being, the answer is “maybe, it will depend.”
    To address WJ–how is Bernie different than Corbyn substantively? What do you know, exactly, about socialism, that makes it ok?
    To everyone who thinks the Bern is ok: how the F do you pay for all the stuff he wants to do and still have money left over to fight the existential threat of climate change? Parenthetically, if you support BS’ program (now, that’s a convenient set of initials if I may say so), and if you expect to be taken seriously on climate change, you really have a lot of explaining to do.
    If your answer includes massive wealth transfers, then include in your answer why the dumbasses who amassed all that wealth are going to submit a second time to being shaken down. Because, you can only take someone’s assets once. Then what?
    Novakant, since you, unlike me, are not ignorant, feel free to explain in your own words how this gets pulled off.
    Russell, if he’s not the kind of socialist I say he is, i.e. the only kind of actual “socialist” there is by definition, then what kind is he?
    Everyone on the left is projecting their own personal wish lists on BS.
    My prediction: if BS gets the nomination, it will be McGovern Redux.

  249. Social welfare states with lightly to heavily regulated capitalist economies.
    Which is pretty much the definition of social democracy.
    Literally all of the OECD countries – including us – have mixed economies, combining generally capitalist and market-oriented economies with regulation in the public interest and publicly sponsored and run social programs.
    They exist on a spectrum. We – the US – are toward one end of the spectrum as far as labor rights and the engagement of labor in economic governance. I’m actually not sure that we’re that much of an outlier in terms of social welfare programs, we just have a shitty attitude toward the people who need them. We’re probably toward the low end of the spectrum in terms of public investment in infrastructure and education.
    In a nutshell, Sanders’ policies would have the effect of moving us closer to the norm in terms of peer nations. Full stop.
    If you need a boogeyman, he’s probably the best available boogeyman. But in real life, there are no boogeymen here.

  250. Social welfare states with lightly to heavily regulated capitalist economies.
    Which is pretty much the definition of social democracy.
    Literally all of the OECD countries – including us – have mixed economies, combining generally capitalist and market-oriented economies with regulation in the public interest and publicly sponsored and run social programs.
    They exist on a spectrum. We – the US – are toward one end of the spectrum as far as labor rights and the engagement of labor in economic governance. I’m actually not sure that we’re that much of an outlier in terms of social welfare programs, we just have a shitty attitude toward the people who need them. We’re probably toward the low end of the spectrum in terms of public investment in infrastructure and education.
    In a nutshell, Sanders’ policies would have the effect of moving us closer to the norm in terms of peer nations. Full stop.
    If you need a boogeyman, he’s probably the best available boogeyman. But in real life, there are no boogeymen here.

  251. FWIW, my biggest objection to Sanders:
    He’s 78. He’d be 79 at the time he took office. If he were somehow to serve for two terms, he’d by 87 by the time he was done.
    And he had a mild heart attack in the last couple of months.
    He appears to be a pretty vigorous old dude, I hope I have half his energy at his age. I wish I had half his energy now.
    But he’s getting up there. It doesn’t disqualify him IMO, it’s just a matter of concern.

  252. FWIW, my biggest objection to Sanders:
    He’s 78. He’d be 79 at the time he took office. If he were somehow to serve for two terms, he’d by 87 by the time he was done.
    And he had a mild heart attack in the last couple of months.
    He appears to be a pretty vigorous old dude, I hope I have half his energy at his age. I wish I had half his energy now.
    But he’s getting up there. It doesn’t disqualify him IMO, it’s just a matter of concern.

  253. Russell, if he’s not the kind of socialist I say he is, i.e. the only kind of actual “socialist” there is by definition, then what kind is he?
    If I look at the actual policies that Sanders is running on, and which were typical of the kinds of policies he has advocated for as mayor and Senator, I make him out to be a social democrat.
    Which shares the word “social” with “socialist” and “democratic socialist”, but is not the same thing.
    I agree that Sanders himself confuses the issue by having characterized himself as both a capital-S Socialist and a democratic socialist.
    But in general I judge by deeds, words less so, labels even less.
    how the F do you pay for all the stuff he wants to do and still have money left over to fight the existential threat of climate change?
    That is a reasonable question. In fact, you could have stopped after “all the stuff he wants to do” and it would still be a reasonable question.
    And, I would say, a completely reasonable basis for deciding whether or not you find him credible or worthy of your support.

  254. Russell, if he’s not the kind of socialist I say he is, i.e. the only kind of actual “socialist” there is by definition, then what kind is he?
    If I look at the actual policies that Sanders is running on, and which were typical of the kinds of policies he has advocated for as mayor and Senator, I make him out to be a social democrat.
    Which shares the word “social” with “socialist” and “democratic socialist”, but is not the same thing.
    I agree that Sanders himself confuses the issue by having characterized himself as both a capital-S Socialist and a democratic socialist.
    But in general I judge by deeds, words less so, labels even less.
    how the F do you pay for all the stuff he wants to do and still have money left over to fight the existential threat of climate change?
    That is a reasonable question. In fact, you could have stopped after “all the stuff he wants to do” and it would still be a reasonable question.
    And, I would say, a completely reasonable basis for deciding whether or not you find him credible or worthy of your support.

  255. What concerns me more is that his presidency would be a series of paralysing battles with Congress.
    I see that as a benefit, actually, lol.
    And did I say Bernie won’t recognize Guaido and Guaido is, I believe, a social democrat? So if you had to pick between Guaido and Maduro . . .

  256. What concerns me more is that his presidency would be a series of paralysing battles with Congress.
    I see that as a benefit, actually, lol.
    And did I say Bernie won’t recognize Guaido and Guaido is, I believe, a social democrat? So if you had to pick between Guaido and Maduro . . .

  257. To everyone who thinks the Bern is ok: how the F do you pay for all the stuff he wants to do and still have money left over to fight the existential threat of climate change?
    How do you pay for Iraq invasions and trillion dollar budget deficits and the unknown costs of not addressing climate change?
    You can only reappropriate SS and Medicare once. Then what?

  258. To everyone who thinks the Bern is ok: how the F do you pay for all the stuff he wants to do and still have money left over to fight the existential threat of climate change?
    How do you pay for Iraq invasions and trillion dollar budget deficits and the unknown costs of not addressing climate change?
    You can only reappropriate SS and Medicare once. Then what?

  259. I note he has advocated at least partial nationalisation of the energy sector
    I’m aware that he advocated for this in the 70’s, during the energy crisis precipitated by the creation of OPEC.
    Are you referring to something more recent?

  260. I note he has advocated at least partial nationalisation of the energy sector
    I’m aware that he advocated for this in the 70’s, during the energy crisis precipitated by the creation of OPEC.
    Are you referring to something more recent?

  261. Since the conversion from theory to practice requires confiscating all property and directing all economic activity centrally, the by product is scarcity, starvation, repression and dictatorship.
    Yes, because as we all know, czarist Russia, Chiang’s China, Batista’s Cuba, and Somoza’s Nicaragua were absolute paradises.

  262. Since the conversion from theory to practice requires confiscating all property and directing all economic activity centrally, the by product is scarcity, starvation, repression and dictatorship.
    Yes, because as we all know, czarist Russia, Chiang’s China, Batista’s Cuba, and Somoza’s Nicaragua were absolute paradises.

  263. I see I have been massively unsuccessful in making my point. The issue with Sanders isn’t his platform. It’s that he says he’s a socialist.
    We’re trying to win an election here. And what is actually in his platform? Does. Not. Matter.
    It might be nice if it did. But that’s not the world we live in. We’re in one where words that politicians say matter far more, to big chunks of the electorate, that what their policies actually are and what (if anything) they accomplish. C.f. Trump, Donald J.

  264. I see I have been massively unsuccessful in making my point. The issue with Sanders isn’t his platform. It’s that he says he’s a socialist.
    We’re trying to win an election here. And what is actually in his platform? Does. Not. Matter.
    It might be nice if it did. But that’s not the world we live in. We’re in one where words that politicians say matter far more, to big chunks of the electorate, that what their policies actually are and what (if anything) they accomplish. C.f. Trump, Donald J.

  265. how the F do you pay for all the stuff he wants to do and still have money left over to fight the existential threat of climate change?
    I give you the example of the fight against fascism, the current political flavor of the Republican Party.
    It will take that kind of mobilization of human and social resources (oh, dear…confiscation of property…bobbyp clutches pearls) to actually pull it off, but I am an outlier in this regard.

  266. how the F do you pay for all the stuff he wants to do and still have money left over to fight the existential threat of climate change?
    I give you the example of the fight against fascism, the current political flavor of the Republican Party.
    It will take that kind of mobilization of human and social resources (oh, dear…confiscation of property…bobbyp clutches pearls) to actually pull it off, but I am an outlier in this regard.

  267. McKinney: To address WJ–how is Bernie different than Corbyn substantively? What do you know, exactly, about socialism, that makes it ok?
    I don’t think socialism is OK. But my point with the comparison with Corbyn was that Corbyn was someone whose negatives, due to his history, were enough that the Conservative Party handily won an election that they should have lost. Or, more accurately, Labor lost badly in an election that they could have won in a walk. And that ought to be a concern.

  268. McKinney: To address WJ–how is Bernie different than Corbyn substantively? What do you know, exactly, about socialism, that makes it ok?
    I don’t think socialism is OK. But my point with the comparison with Corbyn was that Corbyn was someone whose negatives, due to his history, were enough that the Conservative Party handily won an election that they should have lost. Or, more accurately, Labor lost badly in an election that they could have won in a walk. And that ought to be a concern.

  269. That is a reasonable question.
    The question presumes that the current allocation of resources and financial claims on future ones will remain unchanged, and is in fact immutable….therefore asking “more” from it is by definition umpossible.
    Viewed in this light, the question is simply a riscable dodge, and little more than a rhetorical ploy.
    So I heartily disagree.

  270. That is a reasonable question.
    The question presumes that the current allocation of resources and financial claims on future ones will remain unchanged, and is in fact immutable….therefore asking “more” from it is by definition umpossible.
    Viewed in this light, the question is simply a riscable dodge, and little more than a rhetorical ploy.
    So I heartily disagree.

  271. I agree with wj on that last point at 12:14. I am astounded that Democrats would even consider running Sanders against Trump. Yet it looks to be going that way, at least so far and it’s still early. And then there’s the DNC. I’m expecting interesting times with deals, etc. to keep him from the nomination.

  272. I agree with wj on that last point at 12:14. I am astounded that Democrats would even consider running Sanders against Trump. Yet it looks to be going that way, at least so far and it’s still early. And then there’s the DNC. I’m expecting interesting times with deals, etc. to keep him from the nomination.

  273. How do you pay for Iraq invasions and trillion dollar budget deficits and the unknown costs of not addressing climate change?
    Precisely.
    Dick fucking Cheney himself once said, “Deficits don’t matter.” Was he just bullshitting the rubes?

  274. How do you pay for Iraq invasions and trillion dollar budget deficits and the unknown costs of not addressing climate change?
    Precisely.
    Dick fucking Cheney himself once said, “Deficits don’t matter.” Was he just bullshitting the rubes?

  275. They exist on a spectrum. We – the US – are toward one end of the spectrum as far as labor rights and the engagement of labor in economic governance.
    According to the Economic Freedom Index, the US ranks as 12th with New Zealand, Switzerland, Australia, Ireland, UK, Canada, and Iceland being ranked as having freer economies while the economies of the other countries on the list are more heavily restricted than the US.

  276. They exist on a spectrum. We – the US – are toward one end of the spectrum as far as labor rights and the engagement of labor in economic governance.
    According to the Economic Freedom Index, the US ranks as 12th with New Zealand, Switzerland, Australia, Ireland, UK, Canada, and Iceland being ranked as having freer economies while the economies of the other countries on the list are more heavily restricted than the US.

  277. I am astounded that Democrats would even consider running Sanders against Trump.
    Similarly, I am astounded that you obviously ignore polls that consistently show any Democratic Party nominee (including Sanders) beating Trump.
    I should think if your hypothesis had any validity that you would not see anything like these polling results. 1972 polls had McGovern consistently running in the mid 30% range, pretty much where it ended up on election day (37%).

  278. I am astounded that Democrats would even consider running Sanders against Trump.
    Similarly, I am astounded that you obviously ignore polls that consistently show any Democratic Party nominee (including Sanders) beating Trump.
    I should think if your hypothesis had any validity that you would not see anything like these polling results. 1972 polls had McGovern consistently running in the mid 30% range, pretty much where it ended up on election day (37%).

  279. I’m aware that he advocated for this in the 70’s, during the energy crisis precipitated by the creation of OPEC.
    There’s an argument that Nixon’s wage and price controls had a lot more to do with the energy crisis than OPEC.

  280. I’m aware that he advocated for this in the 70’s, during the energy crisis precipitated by the creation of OPEC.
    There’s an argument that Nixon’s wage and price controls had a lot more to do with the energy crisis than OPEC.

  281. We’re trying to win an election here.
    I’m guess as much as you are, wj, but I feel that given the level of Trump derangement syndrome, even Sanders will solidly have 45% of the vote against a president with a solid 40% of the vote. The rest, as they say, is to be determined.

  282. We’re trying to win an election here.
    I’m guess as much as you are, wj, but I feel that given the level of Trump derangement syndrome, even Sanders will solidly have 45% of the vote against a president with a solid 40% of the vote. The rest, as they say, is to be determined.

  283. There’s an argument that Nixon’s wage and price controls had a lot more to do with the energy crisis than OPEC.
    Yes, it is an argument. So are claims that the world is flat, that 9-11 was an inside job, that vaccination causes autism, creationism, the federal budget is “just like a family budget”, and something something chemtrails.
    All arguments. No argument there from me.

  284. There’s an argument that Nixon’s wage and price controls had a lot more to do with the energy crisis than OPEC.
    Yes, it is an argument. So are claims that the world is flat, that 9-11 was an inside job, that vaccination causes autism, creationism, the federal budget is “just like a family budget”, and something something chemtrails.
    All arguments. No argument there from me.

  287. The issue with Sanders isn’t his platform. It’s that he says he’s a socialist.
    I am astounded that Democrats would even consider running Sanders against Trump.
    TBH, I think “the Democrats”, i.e. the Democratic Party, would like Bernie to go the hell away.
    The reason that Bernie is in the position he is in is because what he’s saying resonates with a lot of people, so those people vote for him.
    He’s popular. Not with the DNC, with people.

  288. The issue with Sanders isn’t his platform. It’s that he says he’s a socialist.
    I am astounded that Democrats would even consider running Sanders against Trump.
    TBH, I think “the Democrats”, i.e. the Democratic Party, would like Bernie to go the hell away.
    The reason that Bernie is in the position he is in is because what he’s saying resonates with a lot of people, so those people vote for him.
    He’s popular. Not with the DNC, with people.

  291. If your answer includes massive wealth transfers, then include in your answer why the dumbasses who amassed all that wealth are going to submit a second time to being shaken down.
    I must have missed the first time. Fill me in.
    Because, you can only take someone’s assets once.
    There are many tens of millions more of, you know, actual regular folks who have actually experienced actual painful “redistribution”:
    Job loss; heath care bankruptcy; upside down mortgage, outright wage and pension theft, lawfully imposed economic rents, etc.
    Therefore I can only assume that you are in favor of this kind of expropriation, and are not in the slightest opposed, in principle, to “redistribution” as long as it favors the right people.

  292. If your answer includes massive wealth transfers, then include in your answer why the dumbasses who amassed all that wealth are going to submit a second time to being shaken down.
    I must have missed the first time. Fill me in.
    Because, you can only take someone’s assets once.
    There are many tens of millions more of, you know, actual regular folks who have actually experienced actual painful “redistribution”:
    Job loss; heath care bankruptcy; upside down mortgage, outright wage and pension theft, lawfully imposed economic rents, etc.
    Therefore I can only assume that you are in favor of this kind of expropriation, and are not in the slightest opposed, in principle, to “redistribution” as long as it favors the right people.

  295. The thing is: capitalism as it is practised in the US simply isn’t working and we got a huge problem on our hands, comparable only to climate change.
    If you won’t take my social-democratic word for it, or Thomas Piketty’s – just listen to, say, Ray Dalio or Warren Buffett.
    To use the current capitalist system as some sort of rational baseline and believe that we can just muddle through is insane.
    It’s not people like Sanders who should be on the spot, but those who think they can carry on with business as usual.

  296. The thing is: capitalism as it is practised in the US simply isn’t working and we got a huge problem on our hands, comparable only to climate change.
    If you won’t take my social-democratic word for it, or Thomas Piketty’s – just listen to, say, Ray Dalio or Warren Buffett.
    To use the current capitalist system as some sort of rational baseline and believe that we can just muddle through is insane.
    It’s not people like Sanders who should be on the spot, but those who think they can carry on with business as usual.

  297. “ Calling out Maduro would be a start.”
    It would be the start of the Bernie cult ( waves hand) beginning to despise him. It’s not that I like Maduro, but wtf is it with Americans and Westerners in general thinking we have the right to pick the leaders of other countries. There are a lot of countries whose leaders I despise, starting here.
    A great many Americans, some in both parties, think we have the right to do whatever we want to countries with governments we don’t like. Sometimes those other governments really are bad. But the actions we take generally hurt the people we supposedly wish to help. After awhile you should stop believing in American good intentions.
    Why doesn’t Sanders “ call out Maduro? Probably because he understands how this crap works and he knows his supporters. There are a lot of bad rulers in the world, again starting here, but the American foreign policy blob focuses on the ones who are seen as hostile to American hegemony. So everybody in respectable circles “ agrees” that person X is a bad person and maybe picks out person Y as the “ legitimate” ruler and then they just argue about whether the US should kill X or invade his country or impose sanctions, or arm “moderate” rebels. It is taken fo granted that we have the right to do any or all of these things. It is just a question of what is practicable or achievable or of low cost to the only people that matter— the ones in the Beltway. ( American soldiers don’t matter either, unless casualties amongst the troops will effect an election.)
    How do you escape the cycle? By refusing to play the game. We don’t live in a world where human rights violators are treated equally before some universally applied law. There is no rule of law on this subject except when convenient. We live in a world where Americans feel moral outrage and demand action against only those thugs who the Beltway crowd would like to see overthrown. Morales was overthrown by Christian fascists and some fracking liberals cheered. And Morales, while a bit arrogant, was in no sense a dictator. It didn’t matter. He was critical of the US. If Trump and Sanders were Bolivian the NYT would support Trump.
    WhenI Bernie cultists criticize our demigod, it is because he hasn’t been sufficiently anti- interventionist. He is better than average, but not perfect. In the recent NYT questions on foreign policy, one or two of his answers bothered those of us in the cult. And he was dragged into opposition to Israel’s treatment of Gaza, though better late than never. His serious opposition to Yemen came after Trump came in. Again, better late than never.
    But sure, I understand people want him to show the kind of foreign policy expertise that led to the Iraq War. . And there is a fair chance that in November I will have to vote for some Democrat who is much happier with bombing, sanctioning and arming “ moderate” rebels. I”ll do it if necessary. Not everyone will. I think the Bernie or bust feeling is a big mistake but since I am preaching to the choir here I won’t belabor it. But the feeling and the anger and the rudeness come from a sense that mainstream thinking has caused countless deaths in foreign policy, a great deal of misery and death at home, and might be wrecking the planet. And there are significant differences between Sanders and the “ moderates”. ( Warren is an interesting case. A few months ago I was half hoping she could genuinely be a unifying candidate but that truce they had fell apart— I think there is some blame on both sides, but anyway, it would be hard to see that unity thing happening now Anyway, I think the moderate Democrats only liked Warren as a candidate who they hoped would split the leftist vote.)

  298. “ Calling out Maduro would be a start.”
    It would be the start of the Bernie cult ( waves hand) beginning to despise him. It’s not that I like Maduro, but wtf is it with Americans and Westerners in general thinking we have the right to pick the leaders of other countries. There are a lot of countries whose leaders I despise, starting here.
    A great many Americans, some in both parties, think we have the right to do whatever we want to countries with governments we don’t like. Sometimes those other governments really are bad. But the actions we take generally hurt the people we supposedly wish to help. After awhile you should stop believing in American good intentions.
    Why doesn’t Sanders “ call out Maduro? Probably because he understands how this crap works and he knows his supporters. There are a lot of bad rulers in the world, again starting here, but the American foreign policy blob focuses on the ones who are seen as hostile to American hegemony. So everybody in respectable circles “ agrees” that person X is a bad person and maybe picks out person Y as the “ legitimate” ruler and then they just argue about whether the US should kill X or invade his country or impose sanctions, or arm “moderate” rebels. It is taken fo granted that we have the right to do any or all of these things. It is just a question of what is practicable or achievable or of low cost to the only people that matter— the ones in the Beltway. ( American soldiers don’t matter either, unless casualties amongst the troops will effect an election.)
    How do you escape the cycle? By refusing to play the game. We don’t live in a world where human rights violators are treated equally before some universally applied law. There is no rule of law on this subject except when convenient. We live in a world where Americans feel moral outrage and demand action against only those thugs who the Beltway crowd would like to see overthrown. Morales was overthrown by Christian fascists and some fracking liberals cheered. And Morales, while a bit arrogant, was in no sense a dictator. It didn’t matter. He was critical of the US. If Trump and Sanders were Bolivian the NYT would support Trump.
    WhenI Bernie cultists criticize our demigod, it is because he hasn’t been sufficiently anti- interventionist. He is better than average, but not perfect. In the recent NYT questions on foreign policy, one or two of his answers bothered those of us in the cult. And he was dragged into opposition to Israel’s treatment of Gaza, though better late than never. His serious opposition to Yemen came after Trump came in. Again, better late than never.
    But sure, I understand people want him to show the kind of foreign policy expertise that led to the Iraq War. . And there is a fair chance that in November I will have to vote for some Democrat who is much happier with bombing, sanctioning and arming “ moderate” rebels. I”ll do it if necessary. Not everyone will. I think the Bernie or bust feeling is a big mistake but since I am preaching to the choir here I won’t belabor it. But the feeling and the anger and the rudeness come from a sense that mainstream thinking has caused countless deaths in foreign policy, a great deal of misery and death at home, and might be wrecking the planet. And there are significant differences between Sanders and the “ moderates”. ( Warren is an interesting case. A few months ago I was half hoping she could genuinely be a unifying candidate but that truce they had fell apart— I think there is some blame on both sides, but anyway, it would be hard to see that unity thing happening now Anyway, I think the moderate Democrats only liked Warren as a candidate who they hoped would split the leftist vote.)

  299. capitalism as it is practised in the US simply isn’t working and we got a huge problem on our hands . . . .
    . . .
    To use the current capitalist system as some sort of rational baseline and believe that we can just muddle through is insane.
    Can we just muddle through? No.
    Does that mean we need radical changes? Also no.
    We definitely need to make some changes. But I submit they are more like tweaks.

    • Institute a much higher top marginal income tax rate. Something like 50% on income above 1 million per year. And maybe even go to 75% on income above 10 million. After all, at those levels, people aren’t motivated by needing the money. It is, to put it bluntly, a dick measuring contest. And they don’t need to actually end up with the money to do that.
    • Institute an inheritance tax for large inheritances. I’m talking those above, say, 2 million dollars. I understand parents wanting to give their kids a leg up. But face it, at those levels, you’re doing them more harm than good.
    • Put a serious tax on corporations where the CEO (or any other executive) has compensation higher than 20x that of the average non-management employee. If you want to get really serious, add a surtax equal to the CEO’s compensation to the personal taxes of any and every board member of such corporations — give them some petsonal incentive to do the right thing.
    • Provide some tax incentives to give more in the way of stock options to non-executive employees. I’ve worked for a company which did that. Boosted productivity, innovation, etc., etc. Not to mention morale

    Doubtless we can come up with a few more. But those are the kinds of things that will get us started.

  300. capitalism as it is practised in the US simply isn’t working and we got a huge problem on our hands . . . .
    . . .
    To use the current capitalist system as some sort of rational baseline and believe that we can just muddle through is insane.
    Can we just muddle through? No.
    Does that mean we need radical changes? Also no.
    We definitely need to make some changes. But I submit they are more like tweaks.

    • Institute a much higher top marginal income tax rate. Something like 50% on income above 1 million per year. And maybe even go to 75% on income above 10 million. After all, at those levels, people aren’t motivated by needing the money. It is, to put it bluntly, a dick measuring contest. And they don’t need to actually end up with the money to do that.
    • Institute an inheritance tax for large inheritances. I’m talking those above, say, 2 million dollars. I understand parents wanting to give their kids a leg up. But face it, at those levels, you’re doing them more harm than good.
    • Put a serious tax on corporations where the CEO (or any other executive) has compensation higher than 20x that of the average non-management employee. If you want to get really serious, add a surtax equal to the CEO’s compensation to the personal taxes of any and every board member of such corporations — give them some petsonal incentive to do the right thing.
    • Provide some tax incentives to give more in the way of stock options to non-executive employees. I’ve worked for a company which did that. Boosted productivity, innovation, etc., etc. Not to mention morale

    Doubtless we can come up with a few more. But those are the kinds of things that will get us started.

  301. In other news, a friend who is a Warren supporter mentions that she went to Warren’s website to get some merch.
    The buttons for sale there were imprinted in Braille. So if you were blind, you could also read the button.
    If you’re a (R), you will have the choice of voting for… a guy whose followers wear “Fuck Your Feelings” shirts.
    If you’re a (D), you have the choice of voting for someone who took the tiny step of having her campaign buttons stamped with the slogan in Braille. So, if you’re blind, you get to be part of the club, too.
    I most definitely hope that whoever bubbles up to the top of the (D) pile royally kicks the living shite out of Trump this fall. Electorally, mind you, no physical beatings please.
    But whether they do or don’t, people on “my side” do things like stamp their campaign buttons in Braille, so that everybody gets to play. So I like where I am just fine, win or lose.
    As far as stuff like Maduro vs Guaido, the question I have is this: who do the people of Venezuala want to be their president? Whoever they want, that is who should be president, and our preferences should come into it not at all. Our responsibility is to deal with whoever the Venezualans elect, honestly and with the respect due to a sovereign nation, to advocate for our own interests. If we like, we can offer whatever help the Venezualans want and ask for. Other than that, it ain’t our business.
    We’ve spent a century interfering in the internal politics of countries in Central and South America, in the interest of Stopping The Spread Of Socialism. We are responsible for sponsoring and training some of the most vicious regimes on the planet. Cruel, murderous, larcenous bastards.
    We should leave those people the hell alone.
    That is my perspective on Maduro and Guaido, since you ask.

  302. In other news, a friend who is a Warren supporter mentions that she went to Warren’s website to get some merch.
    The buttons for sale there were imprinted in Braille. So if you were blind, you could also read the button.
    If you’re a (R), you will have the choice of voting for… a guy whose followers wear “Fuck Your Feelings” shirts.
    If you’re a (D), you have the choice of voting for someone who took the tiny step of having her campaign buttons stamped with the slogan in Braille. So, if you’re blind, you get to be part of the club, too.
    I most definitely hope that whoever bubbles up to the top of the (D) pile royally kicks the living shite out of Trump this fall. Electorally, mind you, no physical beatings please.
    But whether they do or don’t, people on “my side” do things like stamp their campaign buttons in Braille, so that everybody gets to play. So I like where I am just fine, win or lose.
    As far as stuff like Maduro vs Guaido, the question I have is this: who do the people of Venezuala want to be their president? Whoever they want, that is who should be president, and our preferences should come into it not at all. Our responsibility is to deal with whoever the Venezualans elect, honestly and with the respect due to a sovereign nation, to advocate for our own interests. If we like, we can offer whatever help the Venezualans want and ask for. Other than that, it ain’t our business.
    We’ve spent a century interfering in the internal politics of countries in Central and South America, in the interest of Stopping The Spread Of Socialism. We are responsible for sponsoring and training some of the most vicious regimes on the planet. Cruel, murderous, larcenous bastards.
    We should leave those people the hell alone.
    That is my perspective on Maduro and Guaido, since you ask.

  303. Trump and Braille.
    If the (D)’s just seem too commie-lite for you, go ahead and vote for Trump. He’ll give you all the tax cuts and de-regulation he can cram through Congress.
    Just be careful he doesn’t rub off on you.

  304. Trump and Braille.
    If the (D)’s just seem too commie-lite for you, go ahead and vote for Trump. He’ll give you all the tax cuts and de-regulation he can cram through Congress.
    Just be careful he doesn’t rub off on you.

  305. Doubtless we can come up with a few more.
    I have a very simple one.
    Give employees a share of the profit of the business. Profit sharing, employee ownership, stock vesting, whatever.
    As long as profits flow only to owners – which is our model – and employees are not owners – which is also our model – then social program solutions are never going to be more than a band-aid.
    And one that is resented by everyone who doesn’t directly benefit from them.
    Not re-distribution. Distribution.
    Don’t want government involved in health care? Enforce policies that ensure that working people make enough money to buy it for themselves.
    Lather rinse and repeat for college, housing, whatever you like.
    Not re-distribution. Distribution.

  306. Doubtless we can come up with a few more.
    I have a very simple one.
    Give employees a share of the profit of the business. Profit sharing, employee ownership, stock vesting, whatever.
    As long as profits flow only to owners – which is our model – and employees are not owners – which is also our model – then social program solutions are never going to be more than a band-aid.
    And one that is resented by everyone who doesn’t directly benefit from them.
    Not re-distribution. Distribution.
    Don’t want government involved in health care? Enforce policies that ensure that working people make enough money to buy it for themselves.
    Lather rinse and repeat for college, housing, whatever you like.
    Not re-distribution. Distribution.

  307. I, for one, want to hear Bernie clearly distance himself from his former ideology if he in fact believes differently today. Calling out Maduro would be a start.
    And I, for one, want to hear Trump distance himself from the notion that he is all-powerful, and that tyrants are to be admired and emulated. He could start by calling out Kim Jong Un, and Putin, and Orban and Xi.
    There are a lot of bad guys running countries. Somehow you only want to call out some. Look, I’m no Bernie fan, but this is not an election about policy. It’s an election about saving the country from going down the drain, or any further down the drain, due to Trump and his gang of crooks, bigots, liars, and fools.
    If Sanders were elected he wouldn’t get any of his further out stuff done. But Trump will, and his stuff is far more dangerous. I honestly don’t get how Marty, bc, and McK don’t see the danger here.
    They are playing semantic games, while Trump is destroying the country for his own benefit.

  308. I, for one, want to hear Bernie clearly distance himself from his former ideology if he in fact believes differently today. Calling out Maduro would be a start.
    And I, for one, want to hear Trump distance himself from the notion that he is all-powerful, and that tyrants are to be admired and emulated. He could start by calling out Kim Jong Un, and Putin, and Orban and Xi.
    There are a lot of bad guys running countries. Somehow you only want to call out some. Look, I’m no Bernie fan, but this is not an election about policy. It’s an election about saving the country from going down the drain, or any further down the drain, due to Trump and his gang of crooks, bigots, liars, and fools.
    If Sanders were elected he wouldn’t get any of his further out stuff done. But Trump will, and his stuff is far more dangerous. I honestly don’t get how Marty, bc, and McK don’t see the danger here.
    They are playing semantic games, while Trump is destroying the country for his own benefit.

  309. And I, for one, want to hear Trump distance himself from the notion that he is all-powerful, and that tyrants are to be admired and emulated. He could start by calling out Kim Jong Un, and Putin, and Orban and Xi
    Obviously never going to happen. But it is indeed interesting that Marty, bc and McK are happy to argue around the various Dem candidates while Rome burns. I don’t include Ufficio, of course, because presumably his intervention on Bernie was a joke.

  310. And I, for one, want to hear Trump distance himself from the notion that he is all-powerful, and that tyrants are to be admired and emulated. He could start by calling out Kim Jong Un, and Putin, and Orban and Xi
    Obviously never going to happen. But it is indeed interesting that Marty, bc and McK are happy to argue around the various Dem candidates while Rome burns. I don’t include Ufficio, of course, because presumably his intervention on Bernie was a joke.

  311. If Sanders were elected he wouldn’t get any of his further out stuff done. But Trump will, and his stuff is far more dangerous.
    I don’t think anyone here is arguing otherwise. The salient question is: Would Sanders get elected? Or, perhaps, would his chances of beating Trump be better or less good than the alternative possible candidates?
    Of course, it can be fun to argue over whose policy proposals are better. But this time around, all of those policy differences are insignificant compared to the critical question: who has the best chance of doing the critical first task of getting Trump out of office?

  312. If Sanders were elected he wouldn’t get any of his further out stuff done. But Trump will, and his stuff is far more dangerous.
    I don’t think anyone here is arguing otherwise. The salient question is: Would Sanders get elected? Or, perhaps, would his chances of beating Trump be better or less good than the alternative possible candidates?
    Of course, it can be fun to argue over whose policy proposals are better. But this time around, all of those policy differences are insignificant compared to the critical question: who has the best chance of doing the critical first task of getting Trump out of office?

  313. But it is indeed interesting that Marty, bc and McK are happy to argue around the various Dem candidates while Rome burns.
    “Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t?”
    “Don’t change horsemen in the middle of the apocalypse?”

  314. But it is indeed interesting that Marty, bc and McK are happy to argue around the various Dem candidates while Rome burns.
    “Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t?”
    “Don’t change horsemen in the middle of the apocalypse?”

  315. wj,
    I don’t think anyone here is arguing otherwise.
    I think they are. McK won’t even commit to vote for Klobuchar. Instead he and bc are going on about Sanders and Maduro. I certainly don’t think they see Trump as the kind of threat I see him as.
    I agree about Sanders’ chances in the general. Call it McGovernphobia. I’m very concerned about that and am definitely on the “moderate” side of things wrt to the Dem nomination.

  316. wj,
    I don’t think anyone here is arguing otherwise.
    I think they are. McK won’t even commit to vote for Klobuchar. Instead he and bc are going on about Sanders and Maduro. I certainly don’t think they see Trump as the kind of threat I see him as.
    I agree about Sanders’ chances in the general. Call it McGovernphobia. I’m very concerned about that and am definitely on the “moderate” side of things wrt to the Dem nomination.

  317. A great many Americans, some in both parties, think we have the right to do whatever we want to countries with governments we don’t like.
    I honestly don’t get how Marty, bc, and McK don’t see the danger here.
    Uh, not I. My point re Maduro was simply Sanders finds it hard to criticize “true” socialists, thereby reflecting on his own socialism. I wasn’t commenting on government overthrow, Trump’s foreign policy, etc.
    But since we are here, I appreciate a lot of your insights into foreign policy, Donald. By my comments I was not advocating the overthrow of Maduro from the outside (vs. the inside), at least not yet. But I do think it is right to stand up (vocally at least) for democracy and self-government wherever people are oppressed.
    Doubtless we can come up with a few more. But those are the kinds of things that will get us started.
    As long as profits flow only to owners – which is our model – and employees are not owners – which is also our model -. . .
    wj and russell: Most of wj’s ideas I would support, although not at the levels proposed simply because I think it might cause issues with innovation and investment in areas where we need a large risk/reward ratio. I think $1M is pretty low.
    And we have employee ownership in the U.S. ESOPs. ESPPs. Tech companies love them some equity ownership for high performing employees. And it seems to be trending for all employees. We have shown we can do it within the system we have, and I would favor broadening it further.
    . . .while Rome burns . . .
    I certainly don’t think they see Trump as the kind of threat I see him as.
    I see my liberal friends, reflected in these comments too, as often presenting the fallacy of a false dilemma. I, for one, would like my views on the “left” to not necessarily and automatically mean I feel “thus” about something on the right. I can harbor my concerns about the Great Orange Haired One while at the same time being pretty damned concerned about “Rome burning” from a completely different source than the current POTUS.

  318. A great many Americans, some in both parties, think we have the right to do whatever we want to countries with governments we don’t like.
    I honestly don’t get how Marty, bc, and McK don’t see the danger here.
    Uh, not I. My point re Maduro was simply Sanders finds it hard to criticize “true” socialists, thereby reflecting on his own socialism. I wasn’t commenting on government overthrow, Trump’s foreign policy, etc.
    But since we are here, I appreciate a lot of your insights into foreign policy, Donald. By my comments I was not advocating the overthrow of Maduro from the outside (vs. the inside), at least not yet. But I do think it is right to stand up (vocally at least) for democracy and self-government wherever people are oppressed.
    Doubtless we can come up with a few more. But those are the kinds of things that will get us started.
    As long as profits flow only to owners – which is our model – and employees are not owners – which is also our model -. . .
    wj and russell: Most of wj’s ideas I would support, although not at the levels proposed simply because I think it might cause issues with innovation and investment in areas where we need a large risk/reward ratio. I think $1M is pretty low.
    And we have employee ownership in the U.S. ESOPs. ESPPs. Tech companies love them some equity ownership for high performing employees. And it seems to be trending for all employees. We have shown we can do it within the system we have, and I would favor broadening it further.
    . . .while Rome burns . . .
    I certainly don’t think they see Trump as the kind of threat I see him as.
    I see my liberal friends, reflected in these comments too, as often presenting the fallacy of a false dilemma. I, for one, would like my views on the “left” to not necessarily and automatically mean I feel “thus” about something on the right. I can harbor my concerns about the Great Orange Haired One while at the same time being pretty damned concerned about “Rome burning” from a completely different source than the current POTUS.

  319. what byomtov said.
    Except that I don’t have McGovernphobia, because Bernie is not like McGovern. Bernie has actual issues, aside from calling himself a socialist. For one thing, he’s not a Democrat. For another, his history has some very un #metoo friendly moments (for example). Sure, fine, that was a very long time ago, but he gets a pass where others don’t. I read talk on Twitter (I hope false!) that he’s considering Tulsi as his running mate – not good, if true. Maybe it’s not true? Donald is not Tulsi-averse.
    So, yeah, I’m trying to meditate daily, and avoid freaking out, but Bernie? Really? Please, God, no.
    Of course, I’ll vote for him over Trump. I will, I will, I will.

  320. what byomtov said.
    Except that I don’t have McGovernphobia, because Bernie is not like McGovern. Bernie has actual issues, aside from calling himself a socialist. For one thing, he’s not a Democrat. For another, his history has some very un #metoo friendly moments (for example). Sure, fine, that was a very long time ago, but he gets a pass where others don’t. I read talk on Twitter (I hope false!) that he’s considering Tulsi as his running mate – not good, if true. Maybe it’s not true? Donald is not Tulsi-averse.
    So, yeah, I’m trying to meditate daily, and avoid freaking out, but Bernie? Really? Please, God, no.
    Of course, I’ll vote for him over Trump. I will, I will, I will.

  321. Most of wj’s ideas I would support, although not at the levels proposed simply because I think it might cause issues with innovation and investment in areas where we need a large risk/reward ratio. I think $1M is pretty low.
    Quite possibly it is. (I occasionally get blindsided by the fact that wages, prices, etc. today are 10-15 times what I grew up with.) But you could kick all my numbers up by 5 or 10 times, and it would still be a big step towards restoring a viable economy for everybody. IMHO, of course.

  322. Most of wj’s ideas I would support, although not at the levels proposed simply because I think it might cause issues with innovation and investment in areas where we need a large risk/reward ratio. I think $1M is pretty low.
    Quite possibly it is. (I occasionally get blindsided by the fact that wages, prices, etc. today are 10-15 times what I grew up with.) But you could kick all my numbers up by 5 or 10 times, and it would still be a big step towards restoring a viable economy for everybody. IMHO, of course.

  323. bc,
    If you worry that some “socialist” can “burn Rome” as thoroughly as the Great Orange Satan* seems determined to do, I wonder whether you define either “Rome” or “burn” the way I do.
    Maybe you (and McKinney and Marty) are convinced that any “socialist” would take away your money, but no fascist ever would. I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think that you may be wrong. About the fascist as well as the socialist, I mean.
    Consider, too, that the fascist may leave your money alone but only if you surrender your dignity: as long as you’re willing to kiss the fascist’s pasty, bloated ass (a la Brett Kavanaugh) your money may indeed be safe. Some people clearly see that as a good deal; some don’t.
    *Yes, I do remember when The Daily Cos reigned as the Great Orange Satan. Times change.
    –TP

  324. bc,
    If you worry that some “socialist” can “burn Rome” as thoroughly as the Great Orange Satan* seems determined to do, I wonder whether you define either “Rome” or “burn” the way I do.
    Maybe you (and McKinney and Marty) are convinced that any “socialist” would take away your money, but no fascist ever would. I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think that you may be wrong. About the fascist as well as the socialist, I mean.
    Consider, too, that the fascist may leave your money alone but only if you surrender your dignity: as long as you’re willing to kiss the fascist’s pasty, bloated ass (a la Brett Kavanaugh) your money may indeed be safe. Some people clearly see that as a good deal; some don’t.
    *Yes, I do remember when The Daily Cos reigned as the Great Orange Satan. Times change.
    –TP

  329. I, for one, would gladly vote for Coronavirus Pandemic over Trump.
    Not sure how much choice we’re going to actually get, though…

  330. I, for one, would gladly vote for Coronavirus Pandemic over Trump.
    Not sure how much choice we’re going to actually get, though…

  331. can harbor my concerns about the Great Orange Haired One while at the same time being pretty damned concerned about “Rome burning” from a completely different source than the current POTUS.

    Sure.
    But the choice, at worst, is between “Rome is burning,” and “Rome might possibly burn.”
    And make no mistake, Rome is burning.
    Here is yet another story illustrating what a bunch of psychopaths we have running things.
    Leave economic policies aside, bc. I’m not going to call Trump’s people Nazis, but they would have been, had they had the chance. Everything is there – the fuhrerprinzip, the bigotry, the deliberate cruelty.
    We’ve got to get them out.
    (For some reason the closing tag for italics doesn’t seem to be working)

  332. can harbor my concerns about the Great Orange Haired One while at the same time being pretty damned concerned about “Rome burning” from a completely different source than the current POTUS.

    Sure.
    But the choice, at worst, is between “Rome is burning,” and “Rome might possibly burn.”
    And make no mistake, Rome is burning.
    Here is yet another story illustrating what a bunch of psychopaths we have running things.
    Leave economic policies aside, bc. I’m not going to call Trump’s people Nazis, but they would have been, had they had the chance. Everything is there – the fuhrerprinzip, the bigotry, the deliberate cruelty.
    We’ve got to get them out.
    (For some reason the closing tag for italics doesn’t seem to be working)

  333. Has anyone looked at BS’ official website. He’s a socialist, all in. He no more looks to Scandinavia for guidance than DT looks to the Federalist Papers or the Constitution. If he believes what his website says, then he is unhinged. He says he is a socialist because he is one.
    As for the hypocrisy in not holding him accountable for his fellow travelers being all dressed up in not telling other countries what to do, that is really quite rich given the adherents here of BDS.
    My point isn’t that DT is preferable. My point, which is less than sharp because our national situation is such a cluster, is that the Dems have moved much farther left this time around and that movement takes away options others, possibly me included, would have.
    BS elevates DT’s chances immensely.
    No idea why the italics thing has taken over. Maybe it’s the Revolution.

  334. Has anyone looked at BS’ official website. He’s a socialist, all in. He no more looks to Scandinavia for guidance than DT looks to the Federalist Papers or the Constitution. If he believes what his website says, then he is unhinged. He says he is a socialist because he is one.
    As for the hypocrisy in not holding him accountable for his fellow travelers being all dressed up in not telling other countries what to do, that is really quite rich given the adherents here of BDS.
    My point isn’t that DT is preferable. My point, which is less than sharp because our national situation is such a cluster, is that the Dems have moved much farther left this time around and that movement takes away options others, possibly me included, would have.
    BS elevates DT’s chances immensely.
    No idea why the italics thing has taken over. Maybe it’s the Revolution.

  345. ….is that the Dems have moved much farther left this time around and that movement takes away options others, possibly me included, would have.
    As opposed to taking away the options that somebody like me would have? That’s rich.
    As for his website, you goaded me into looking it over. So I am moving from Warren to Sanders. Thanks for the assist.

  346. ….is that the Dems have moved much farther left this time around and that movement takes away options others, possibly me included, would have.
    As opposed to taking away the options that somebody like me would have? That’s rich.
    As for his website, you goaded me into looking it over. So I am moving from Warren to Sanders. Thanks for the assist.

  349. Most blogging platforms these days have an option to close hanging HTML tags in the comment bodies. So much so that I am somewhat startled when I see runaway italics or bold on ObWi.

  350. Most blogging platforms these days have an option to close hanging HTML tags in the comment bodies. So much so that I am somewhat startled when I see runaway italics or bold on ObWi.

  351. A forward slash, rather than a back slash might be a thought. Just sayin’
    no idea what happened there.
    wj: turns out bobbyp somehow got a start italics in his 9:45 PM post. I’ve done that by accident more than once myself.

  352. A forward slash, rather than a back slash might be a thought. Just sayin’
    no idea what happened there.
    wj: turns out bobbyp somehow got a start italics in his 9:45 PM post. I’ve done that by accident more than once myself.

  353. “I am somewhat startled when I see runaway italics or bold on ObWi.”
    Most runaway comments on the intertubes these days originate in Russian Troll Farms, just saying.

  354. “I am somewhat startled when I see runaway italics or bold on ObWi.”
    Most runaway comments on the intertubes these days originate in Russian Troll Farms, just saying.

  355. “ As for the hypocrisy in not holding him accountable for his fellow travelers being all dressed up in not telling other countries what to do, that is really quite rich given the adherents here of BDS.”
    I had put in a paragraph about BDS but deleted it thinking I didn’t want to go on too long.
    BDS is largely symbolic— there is zero chance that there would ever be sanctions leveled on Israel that would do one percent of the harm that sanctions and/ or blockades do to Gaza, Iran, or Venezuela. Imagine the coverage if there were deaths of Israeli Jews that could be blamed on lack of medicine due to a boycott. People would go insane.
    And personally I couldn’t support a sanctions movement that inflicted actual harm of that sort. It would be monstrous. It would be what we actually fracking do to people whose lives we don’t give a shit about. We clearly don’t give a shit. It isn’t an issue that even comes up. Why should it?
    BDS calls attention to the issue. It brings out politicians who pass or try to pass bills that penalize people who boycott Israel. They get called out for doing this and people wonder why state or local governments are wasting time trying to penalize legitimate political advocacy.
    What we actually do for Israel is give them billions every year, which might be spent on weapons here— I don’t know or care— and we occasionally tut tut about settlement expansion while guaranteeing that our support is unconditional.
    Israel is supposed to be our ally, a Western democracy for whatever that is supposed to be worth, so yeah, it might make sense that we be a bit less supportive of their rotten human rights record and express some slight dissent when they gun down protestors but no, I don’t think we should impose murderous sanctions or bomb them or assassinate their leaders or pour weapons into the hands of moderate Palestinian rebels because, well, only sociopaths do things like that and claim they are trying to help.
    I also wouldn’t advocate for overthrowing the murderous Saudi regime, as monstrous as they are, because we have no right to do it and we tend to screw things up badly when we intervene like that. That is, we screw things up for the people we are ostensibly trying to help. I have no idea if the results are a failure for the people who advocate for these interventions. They don’t seem to suffer any serious consequences.

  356. “ As for the hypocrisy in not holding him accountable for his fellow travelers being all dressed up in not telling other countries what to do, that is really quite rich given the adherents here of BDS.”
    I had put in a paragraph about BDS but deleted it thinking I didn’t want to go on too long.
    BDS is largely symbolic— there is zero chance that there would ever be sanctions leveled on Israel that would do one percent of the harm that sanctions and/ or blockades do to Gaza, Iran, or Venezuela. Imagine the coverage if there were deaths of Israeli Jews that could be blamed on lack of medicine due to a boycott. People would go insane.
    And personally I couldn’t support a sanctions movement that inflicted actual harm of that sort. It would be monstrous. It would be what we actually fracking do to people whose lives we don’t give a shit about. We clearly don’t give a shit. It isn’t an issue that even comes up. Why should it?
    BDS calls attention to the issue. It brings out politicians who pass or try to pass bills that penalize people who boycott Israel. They get called out for doing this and people wonder why state or local governments are wasting time trying to penalize legitimate political advocacy.
    What we actually do for Israel is give them billions every year, which might be spent on weapons here— I don’t know or care— and we occasionally tut tut about settlement expansion while guaranteeing that our support is unconditional.
    Israel is supposed to be our ally, a Western democracy for whatever that is supposed to be worth, so yeah, it might make sense that we be a bit less supportive of their rotten human rights record and express some slight dissent when they gun down protestors but no, I don’t think we should impose murderous sanctions or bomb them or assassinate their leaders or pour weapons into the hands of moderate Palestinian rebels because, well, only sociopaths do things like that and claim they are trying to help.
    I also wouldn’t advocate for overthrowing the murderous Saudi regime, as monstrous as they are, because we have no right to do it and we tend to screw things up badly when we intervene like that. That is, we screw things up for the people we are ostensibly trying to help. I have no idea if the results are a failure for the people who advocate for these interventions. They don’t seem to suffer any serious consequences.

  357. Forgot my concluding point. If the US ever in its existence as a light onto the nations ever gets around to investigating and prosecuting its own high ranking war criminals and if we stop supporting the thuggishness of our allies like Israel and the Saudis and if we stopped acting like draconian sanctions that hurt innocent people are an appropriate foreign policy tool for pressuring authoritarian governments then maybe we would have some moral standing to call out Venezuelan leaders for their own authoritarian actions. But that is a fantasy at present. It would involve something like a political revolution in attitudes.
    Ranting done for a week or at least a few days.

  358. Forgot my concluding point. If the US ever in its existence as a light onto the nations ever gets around to investigating and prosecuting its own high ranking war criminals and if we stop supporting the thuggishness of our allies like Israel and the Saudis and if we stopped acting like draconian sanctions that hurt innocent people are an appropriate foreign policy tool for pressuring authoritarian governments then maybe we would have some moral standing to call out Venezuelan leaders for their own authoritarian actions. But that is a fantasy at present. It would involve something like a political revolution in attitudes.
    Ranting done for a week or at least a few days.

  359. “ I agree about Sanders’ chances in the general. Call it McGovernphobia. ”
    Though I am all in for Sanders, I have some of that feeling too actually. I am very conflicted. It is really difficult to tell who is electable these days.

  360. “ I agree about Sanders’ chances in the general. Call it McGovernphobia. ”
    Though I am all in for Sanders, I have some of that feeling too actually. I am very conflicted. It is really difficult to tell who is electable these days.

  361. I also wouldn’t advocate for overthrowing the murderous Saudi regime, as monstrous as they are, because we have no right to do it and we tend to screw things up badly when we intervene like that.
    Could you, perhaps, differentiate between advocating for overthrowing the regime and intervening to do so?
    I tend to have reservations about interventions, if only because, as you say, we have a less than stellar track record there. But speaking out in favor of an overthrow? I really cannot see the downside there.

  362. I also wouldn’t advocate for overthrowing the murderous Saudi regime, as monstrous as they are, because we have no right to do it and we tend to screw things up badly when we intervene like that.
    Could you, perhaps, differentiate between advocating for overthrowing the regime and intervening to do so?
    I tend to have reservations about interventions, if only because, as you say, we have a less than stellar track record there. But speaking out in favor of an overthrow? I really cannot see the downside there.

  363. But speaking out in favor of an overthrow? I really cannot see the downside there.
    Talk is cheap. Don’t we have to change some of our current behavior towards that regime? Stop selling them military gear, for example. Or do we settle for, “We don’t like the regime, we wish someone would overthrow it, but we’re not going to support groups attempting that and we’re going to keep providing the regime with the weapons to put down revolutions.”

  364. But speaking out in favor of an overthrow? I really cannot see the downside there.
    Talk is cheap. Don’t we have to change some of our current behavior towards that regime? Stop selling them military gear, for example. Or do we settle for, “We don’t like the regime, we wish someone would overthrow it, but we’re not going to support groups attempting that and we’re going to keep providing the regime with the weapons to put down revolutions.”

  365. Talk is cheap. Don’t we have to change some of our current behavior towards that regime? Stop selling them military gear, for example.
    Absolutely. Stop supporting them. Just stop short of direct action to overthrow them or support those who are trying to.
    There’s plenty that can be done in that regard. For example, look at what happened with South Africa. We never (to my knowledge) took direct action to overthrow the white supremacist government. But we did things that made their life more difficult.

  366. Talk is cheap. Don’t we have to change some of our current behavior towards that regime? Stop selling them military gear, for example.
    Absolutely. Stop supporting them. Just stop short of direct action to overthrow them or support those who are trying to.
    There’s plenty that can be done in that regard. For example, look at what happened with South Africa. We never (to my knowledge) took direct action to overthrow the white supremacist government. But we did things that made their life more difficult.

  367. We never (to my knowledge) took direct action to overthrow the white supremacist government.
    We imposed sanctions over GOP opposition and a Reagan veto.

  368. We never (to my knowledge) took direct action to overthrow the white supremacist government.
    We imposed sanctions over GOP opposition and a Reagan veto.

  369. We imposed sanctions over GOP opposition and a Reagan veto.
    Thanks for the reminder.
    Still, a lot closer to advocacy, IMHO, than funding an armed rebellion or a coup — let alone invading. Which seems to be our inclination more recently. YMMV

  370. We imposed sanctions over GOP opposition and a Reagan veto.
    Thanks for the reminder.
    Still, a lot closer to advocacy, IMHO, than funding an armed rebellion or a coup — let alone invading. Which seems to be our inclination more recently. YMMV

  371. OTOH, after the first Gulf War, Bush “encouraged” the Kurds…then cut them loose, leaving them to Saddam’s tender mercies.
    You or I can saw whatever we want with no larger consequences. Not true for officials; one of the (VERY MANY) reasons that Trump is constitutionally unsuited for the job.

  372. OTOH, after the first Gulf War, Bush “encouraged” the Kurds…then cut them loose, leaving them to Saddam’s tender mercies.
    You or I can saw whatever we want with no larger consequences. Not true for officials; one of the (VERY MANY) reasons that Trump is constitutionally unsuited for the job.

  373. Although that sort of “encouragement” only has an impact because history suggests (incorrectly, in the case of the Kurds) that support in more concrete forms will be forthcoming.

  374. Although that sort of “encouragement” only has an impact because history suggests (incorrectly, in the case of the Kurds) that support in more concrete forms will be forthcoming.

  377. I have a bit of a complaint about that article, bobbyp. Written by Matt Bruenig of the People’s Policy Project, it says,
    Jeff Stein at the Washington Post got to the bottom of this question in December and reported that it is the latter: the Obamacare mandate on steroids. Under Buttigieg’s plan, rather than paying a $695 fine at the end of the year if you are uninsured (as in the now-repealed Obamacare mandate), you could pay a fine as high as $7,000.
    Hmm.
    Following the link to the WaPo I find,
    “Mayor Buttigieg’s retroactive enrollment is just a supercharged version of the unpopular individual mandate that he’s trying to obscure with misleading rhetoric,” said Matt Bruenig, head of the People’s Policy Project, a left-wing think tank.
    “Instead of paying a $695 fine at the end of the year for being uninsured, you are hit with a bill to pay an entire year of premiums that could be ten times that amount,” he said. “This will be a political nightmare.”
    The WaPo then says,
    [unnamed] Critics say Buttigieg’s plan could leave people with year-end bills of more than $7,000.
    Got to the bottom?
    The retroactive payment is capped at 8.5% of income, though it’s not clear what definition of “income” is being used. So the $7K only applies to income at or above about $82K.
    And let me add this:
    Bruenig complains loudly about the administrative impracticality of some of Buttigieg’s ideas. Is implementing Medicare for All, even assuming it passes, going to be some sort of walk in the park?

  378. I have a bit of a complaint about that article, bobbyp. Written by Matt Bruenig of the People’s Policy Project, it says,
    Jeff Stein at the Washington Post got to the bottom of this question in December and reported that it is the latter: the Obamacare mandate on steroids. Under Buttigieg’s plan, rather than paying a $695 fine at the end of the year if you are uninsured (as in the now-repealed Obamacare mandate), you could pay a fine as high as $7,000.
    Hmm.
    Following the link to the WaPo I find,
    “Mayor Buttigieg’s retroactive enrollment is just a supercharged version of the unpopular individual mandate that he’s trying to obscure with misleading rhetoric,” said Matt Bruenig, head of the People’s Policy Project, a left-wing think tank.
    “Instead of paying a $695 fine at the end of the year for being uninsured, you are hit with a bill to pay an entire year of premiums that could be ten times that amount,” he said. “This will be a political nightmare.”
    The WaPo then says,
    [unnamed] Critics say Buttigieg’s plan could leave people with year-end bills of more than $7,000.
    Got to the bottom?
    The retroactive payment is capped at 8.5% of income, though it’s not clear what definition of “income” is being used. So the $7K only applies to income at or above about $82K.
    And let me add this:
    Bruenig complains loudly about the administrative impracticality of some of Buttigieg’s ideas. Is implementing Medicare for All, even assuming it passes, going to be some sort of walk in the park?

  379. Pipe dreams indeed.
    The pipe dream is the idea that, in a country our size–not 4 million or 40 million people–that a single entity can manage and control healthcare for 330 million people. Look at the VA. Look at the USPS. Gov’t doesn’t do things very well. Scaling up by orders of magnitude will not make the feds any more effective than they already are.
    The Progressive bent is to concentrate authority on the theory that, once concentrated, efficient focus and allocation of funds will ensue. There is no evidence that Progressive theory lines up with reality.
    I’m on Medicare. My preferred muscle relaxer, Metaxalone, is not covered. My preferred gastric reflux pill–the only one that works for me–Dexilant–is not covered. The latter costs me $700 for a 90 day supply. I pay co-pays and I pay a 460/month premium. If you get cataract surgery, Medicare covers the procedure but not the lense ($5,000 in Central Texas).
    So, Medicare is ok but not outstanding. I can no longer do a HSA to cover my non-covered stuff. User friendly, not so much.
    In a single payer universe, you get what the gov’t gives you and nothing more. The gov’t eventually runs out of money and has to limit benefits.
    The basic premise of all proposed single-payer programs is that reimbursement rates can be rolled back and pharma prices can be controlled. Good luck with that. Doctors will not gladly work for way less, hospitals will not provide the same services and just operate at a loss because they are nice people and unless the Dem base can figure out to develop and manufacture medicine, pharma isn’t going away and isn’t going to play ball just for the privilege of operating at a loss.
    So, the pipe dream is that our civil service can not only undo the law of supply and demand, it can simultaneously reorganize the economy along the Green New Deal lines and fix climate change, all while maintaining a private sector that generates the cash to make the foregoing sustainable.
    Is it any wonder, in this day of Donald the Clown, that the Left can’t persuade people outside it’s bubble to see it as a viable alternative?
    Way upthread, I asked the question: how does BS pay for single payer and fight climate change at the same time. Except for Russell, I got two answers: (1) “but Republican Wars” (conveniently rewriting history) and (2) “we’ll find a way.”
    Non-answers won’t cut it in the general election. Either will pie-in-the-sky, everyone gets more stuff platitudes.
    Reality: Things will never be awesome for the US bottom quintile compared to the US top quintile; however, they will always be comparatively far superior for the bottom quintile than any other viable option anywhere else on the planet. Most people who come here from Central America or Mexico lived in shacks with no plumbing, electricity or refrigeration. The bottom quintile in the US is a major step up.
    Other than marginal tweaks at the periphery, what we have today is about as good as it’s going to get (with one exception). The kind of structural reworking the Progs have in mind, if it were to pass, would materially impair the surpluses our private sector currently generate that allow for both a dynamic economy and enough excess income to support an objectively progressive tax scheme.
    The exception is this: as BS once recognized, as did main stream Dem leaders, unrestrained immigration lowers labor costs and makes the American worker less valuable. The labor market can’t tighten if it’s in a constant state of expansion, and certainly cannot tighten as much as is needed to get wages up. If you want American workers to make more money, read up on how supply and demand works and quit artificially inflating the supply piece of it. A second tweak would be to incentivize, via the tax code, relocating businesses to smaller towns and cities where living costs and commute times are less.
    Basically, to make things better for the bottom 3 quintiles, they need less wage competition and a chance to live and work somewhere other than Houston or NYC.

  380. Pipe dreams indeed.
    The pipe dream is the idea that, in a country our size–not 4 million or 40 million people–that a single entity can manage and control healthcare for 330 million people. Look at the VA. Look at the USPS. Gov’t doesn’t do things very well. Scaling up by orders of magnitude will not make the feds any more effective than they already are.
    The Progressive bent is to concentrate authority on the theory that, once concentrated, efficient focus and allocation of funds will ensue. There is no evidence that Progressive theory lines up with reality.
    I’m on Medicare. My preferred muscle relaxer, Metaxalone, is not covered. My preferred gastric reflux pill–the only one that works for me–Dexilant–is not covered. The latter costs me $700 for a 90 day supply. I pay co-pays and I pay a 460/month premium. If you get cataract surgery, Medicare covers the procedure but not the lense ($5,000 in Central Texas).
    So, Medicare is ok but not outstanding. I can no longer do a HSA to cover my non-covered stuff. User friendly, not so much.
    In a single payer universe, you get what the gov’t gives you and nothing more. The gov’t eventually runs out of money and has to limit benefits.
    The basic premise of all proposed single-payer programs is that reimbursement rates can be rolled back and pharma prices can be controlled. Good luck with that. Doctors will not gladly work for way less, hospitals will not provide the same services and just operate at a loss because they are nice people and unless the Dem base can figure out to develop and manufacture medicine, pharma isn’t going away and isn’t going to play ball just for the privilege of operating at a loss.
    So, the pipe dream is that our civil service can not only undo the law of supply and demand, it can simultaneously reorganize the economy along the Green New Deal lines and fix climate change, all while maintaining a private sector that generates the cash to make the foregoing sustainable.
    Is it any wonder, in this day of Donald the Clown, that the Left can’t persuade people outside it’s bubble to see it as a viable alternative?
    Way upthread, I asked the question: how does BS pay for single payer and fight climate change at the same time. Except for Russell, I got two answers: (1) “but Republican Wars” (conveniently rewriting history) and (2) “we’ll find a way.”
    Non-answers won’t cut it in the general election. Either will pie-in-the-sky, everyone gets more stuff platitudes.
    Reality: Things will never be awesome for the US bottom quintile compared to the US top quintile; however, they will always be comparatively far superior for the bottom quintile than any other viable option anywhere else on the planet. Most people who come here from Central America or Mexico lived in shacks with no plumbing, electricity or refrigeration. The bottom quintile in the US is a major step up.
    Other than marginal tweaks at the periphery, what we have today is about as good as it’s going to get (with one exception). The kind of structural reworking the Progs have in mind, if it were to pass, would materially impair the surpluses our private sector currently generate that allow for both a dynamic economy and enough excess income to support an objectively progressive tax scheme.
    The exception is this: as BS once recognized, as did main stream Dem leaders, unrestrained immigration lowers labor costs and makes the American worker less valuable. The labor market can’t tighten if it’s in a constant state of expansion, and certainly cannot tighten as much as is needed to get wages up. If you want American workers to make more money, read up on how supply and demand works and quit artificially inflating the supply piece of it. A second tweak would be to incentivize, via the tax code, relocating businesses to smaller towns and cities where living costs and commute times are less.
    Basically, to make things better for the bottom 3 quintiles, they need less wage competition and a chance to live and work somewhere other than Houston or NYC.

  381. Look at the USPS. Gov’t doesn’t do things very well.
    We seem to have somewhat different experiences. The USPS actually seems to work fairly well here. Granted, if you want to move a package quickly, and need to track it every step of the way, UPS or FedEx may be better options. But if you just want to send a letter? (And, for some reason, email won’t do the trick.) USPS works just fine.
    Perhaps things are different in Texas.

  382. Look at the USPS. Gov’t doesn’t do things very well.
    We seem to have somewhat different experiences. The USPS actually seems to work fairly well here. Granted, if you want to move a package quickly, and need to track it every step of the way, UPS or FedEx may be better options. But if you just want to send a letter? (And, for some reason, email won’t do the trick.) USPS works just fine.
    Perhaps things are different in Texas.

  383. Look at the VA. Look at the USPS.
    Actually, they both do quite well. What’s your point?
    Drug prices? See Dean Baker for a policy recommendation (roll back patents).
    Doctor salaries? They are a coddled guild (like attorneys) that, unlike factory workers, are not subjected to international competition (aka so called “free trade”). See Dean Baker on this point as well.
    Hospital Pricing: Currently said pricing is quite opaque and riddled with rent seeking.
    Would there be rationing? Yes. But we already have that.

  384. Look at the VA. Look at the USPS.
    Actually, they both do quite well. What’s your point?
    Drug prices? See Dean Baker for a policy recommendation (roll back patents).
    Doctor salaries? They are a coddled guild (like attorneys) that, unlike factory workers, are not subjected to international competition (aka so called “free trade”). See Dean Baker on this point as well.
    Hospital Pricing: Currently said pricing is quite opaque and riddled with rent seeking.
    Would there be rationing? Yes. But we already have that.

  387. Is implementing Medicare for All, even assuming it passes, going to be some sort of walk in the park?
    A question that is not really trying to deal with the possible policy options. Is what we have now a walk in the park? Is the fact that millions are currently going without health care socially acceptable to you?
    If it is. Just say so.
    If it is not (which, given you comment history, I would suspect to be the case), then let’s discuss.
    Fair enough?

  388. Is implementing Medicare for All, even assuming it passes, going to be some sort of walk in the park?
    A question that is not really trying to deal with the possible policy options. Is what we have now a walk in the park? Is the fact that millions are currently going without health care socially acceptable to you?
    If it is. Just say so.
    If it is not (which, given you comment history, I would suspect to be the case), then let’s discuss.
    Fair enough?

  389. crap. didn’t close the italics again.
    I write it off to old age. My apologies.
    wj: fixed it. (You had a slash a rather than a slash i.)

  390. crap. didn’t close the italics again.
    I write it off to old age. My apologies.
    wj: fixed it. (You had a slash a rather than a slash i.)

  391. The USPS is crap. We use them out of necessity. We have a very high failure rate. Below is one that was reported to me this weekend–it involves attempting to serve someone at a known address using certified mail. The USPS unilaterally decided to try to deliver it at a different address. Here’s the report:
    “I have been tracking the certified and realized that when it was rerouted to a new location that the post office had made a mistake. I contacted the post office and asked why they rerouted our certified mail when we clearly knew that the address was correct and the person still lived there, They could not give an answer, they just created a case # to which I called again today and they said that they cannot seem to locate the package and went about trying to tell me how I must have done something wrong. (oh you should have heard me yelling at them).”
    This is what happens when you have a single-supplier of services that is, for all practical purposes, unaccountable.
    Many days, our USPS person simply no-shows at our building. We’ve documented 10 day deliveries on letters from Houston to San Antonio or Dallas.
    They are awful and they don’t give a damn what the public thinks.
    Also, the italics are back. This is what happens when socialism takes hold. Italics everywhere.

  392. The USPS is crap. We use them out of necessity. We have a very high failure rate. Below is one that was reported to me this weekend–it involves attempting to serve someone at a known address using certified mail. The USPS unilaterally decided to try to deliver it at a different address. Here’s the report:
    “I have been tracking the certified and realized that when it was rerouted to a new location that the post office had made a mistake. I contacted the post office and asked why they rerouted our certified mail when we clearly knew that the address was correct and the person still lived there, They could not give an answer, they just created a case # to which I called again today and they said that they cannot seem to locate the package and went about trying to tell me how I must have done something wrong. (oh you should have heard me yelling at them).”
    This is what happens when you have a single-supplier of services that is, for all practical purposes, unaccountable.
    Many days, our USPS person simply no-shows at our building. We’ve documented 10 day deliveries on letters from Houston to San Antonio or Dallas.
    They are awful and they don’t give a damn what the public thinks.
    Also, the italics are back. This is what happens when socialism takes hold. Italics everywhere.

  393. What am I missing?
    Per your link, it is covered by 53% of Part D plans. Not by mine and I’d like to see the copay on the plans that do cover it. That would be what you are missing.

  394. What am I missing?
    Per your link, it is covered by 53% of Part D plans. Not by mine and I’d like to see the copay on the plans that do cover it. That would be what you are missing.

  395. Gibberish alert!
    The labor market can’t tighten if it’s in a constant state of expansion…
    US Labor force, 1950: 62,000,000
    US Labor force, 2000: 140,000,000
    Yes we can!

  396. Gibberish alert!
    The labor market can’t tighten if it’s in a constant state of expansion…
    US Labor force, 1950: 62,000,000
    US Labor force, 2000: 140,000,000
    Yes we can!

  397. McKinney,
    Post offices are staffed by Texans in Texas, Californians in California, and so on. Maybe that has something to do with your problems, wj’s better experience, and my utter lack of problems with USPS here in MA.
    BTW, keep in mind that Article I of the US Constitution mandates a USPS way more explicitly than the 5th and 14th Amendments prohibit “socialism”. I mention it in case you care about the Constitution, unlike He, Trump or Mitch McConnell and his fellow lickspittles.
    –TP

  398. McKinney,
    Post offices are staffed by Texans in Texas, Californians in California, and so on. Maybe that has something to do with your problems, wj’s better experience, and my utter lack of problems with USPS here in MA.
    BTW, keep in mind that Article I of the US Constitution mandates a USPS way more explicitly than the 5th and 14th Amendments prohibit “socialism”. I mention it in case you care about the Constitution, unlike He, Trump or Mitch McConnell and his fellow lickspittles.
    –TP

  399. byomtov,
    To be fair, at least Pete would roll back the Trump tax cuts (If he could get his plan through Congress, I would not whine. I just think Medicare for All is better public policy).
    But why stop there? Roll back the Bush tax cuts as well, and the Reagan tax cuts. Tax inherited wealth (wj) heavily. No special tax breaks for capital gains. Cut defense spending by 50%…stop subsidizing the petroleum industry (one of many industries sucking off the public teat-oh, those wealth creators and their well paid lobbyists! Such incentive! Such economic derring-do!).
    These measures, by any measure (cough, cough) would raise a few bucks, right? Of course McK would assert such policies would kill the incentive of the “job creators” to “create wealth”, but who needs them? How many widgets did Alice Walton (worth over $50 billion) assemble today? Not a fucking one. From an economic perspective she serves no useful social purpose.
    She needs to be in our ever expanding labor force. Perhaps she could clean a hotel room or two…you know, do something useful.

  400. byomtov,
    To be fair, at least Pete would roll back the Trump tax cuts (If he could get his plan through Congress, I would not whine. I just think Medicare for All is better public policy).
    But why stop there? Roll back the Bush tax cuts as well, and the Reagan tax cuts. Tax inherited wealth (wj) heavily. No special tax breaks for capital gains. Cut defense spending by 50%…stop subsidizing the petroleum industry (one of many industries sucking off the public teat-oh, those wealth creators and their well paid lobbyists! Such incentive! Such economic derring-do!).
    These measures, by any measure (cough, cough) would raise a few bucks, right? Of course McK would assert such policies would kill the incentive of the “job creators” to “create wealth”, but who needs them? How many widgets did Alice Walton (worth over $50 billion) assemble today? Not a fucking one. From an economic perspective she serves no useful social purpose.
    She needs to be in our ever expanding labor force. Perhaps she could clean a hotel room or two…you know, do something useful.

  401. Per your link, it is covered by 53% of Part D plans.
    So barging in here and asserting it is “not covered” is sort of, uh, not exactly correct? I’d say you might look at some other plans.
    And if you give me any more trouble, I shall unleash the soviet of the italics.

  402. Per your link, it is covered by 53% of Part D plans.
    So barging in here and asserting it is “not covered” is sort of, uh, not exactly correct? I’d say you might look at some other plans.
    And if you give me any more trouble, I shall unleash the soviet of the italics.

  403. But why stop there? Roll back the Bush tax cuts as well, and the Reagan tax cuts. Tax inherited wealth (wj) heavily. No special tax breaks for capital gains.
    We approve this message.

  404. But why stop there? Roll back the Bush tax cuts as well, and the Reagan tax cuts. Tax inherited wealth (wj) heavily. No special tax breaks for capital gains.
    We approve this message.

  407. The thing I don’t understand about tax havens is, what good does it do you to park money somewhere that you can’t spend it. How much is there in the way of either business opportunities in the Cayman Islands? (Even ignoring their prospects as the oceans rise.) Eventually, you have to bring it back in order to use it. At which point, a government can tax the hell out of it.
    Similarly, you can play games using businesses nominally registered in a tax haven. Unless governments decide they will just ignore said registrations and heavily tax any transactions involving such entities.
    In short, they only work if the rest of the world is willing to tolerate, or even enable, them. There’s no guarantee that that condition will continue. And if it stops, all that money you have stashed suddenly is at risk.
    P.S. The exception to all this, of course, is a country regarded as a tax haven by much of the world, but with a huge economy. That would be the United States.

  408. The thing I don’t understand about tax havens is, what good does it do you to park money somewhere that you can’t spend it. How much is there in the way of either business opportunities in the Cayman Islands? (Even ignoring their prospects as the oceans rise.) Eventually, you have to bring it back in order to use it. At which point, a government can tax the hell out of it.
    Similarly, you can play games using businesses nominally registered in a tax haven. Unless governments decide they will just ignore said registrations and heavily tax any transactions involving such entities.
    In short, they only work if the rest of the world is willing to tolerate, or even enable, them. There’s no guarantee that that condition will continue. And if it stops, all that money you have stashed suddenly is at risk.
    P.S. The exception to all this, of course, is a country regarded as a tax haven by much of the world, but with a huge economy. That would be the United States.

  409. The USPS is crap.
    Chiming in to say my mail service is more than fine. If I’m shipping packages, I prefer USPS to UPS.
    YMMV, of course.
    Also, compare what the USPS charges to deliver a 1st class letter, compared to FedEx. Just saying.
    You can make anything work great if you can throw enough money at it.
    to make things better for the bottom 3 quintiles, they need less wage competition and a chance to live and work somewhere other than Houston or NYC.
    Agreed.
    I do note that building out the infrastructure to distribute the economy geographically is likely to involve some public effort. But no disagreement on the basic point.

  410. The USPS is crap.
    Chiming in to say my mail service is more than fine. If I’m shipping packages, I prefer USPS to UPS.
    YMMV, of course.
    Also, compare what the USPS charges to deliver a 1st class letter, compared to FedEx. Just saying.
    You can make anything work great if you can throw enough money at it.
    to make things better for the bottom 3 quintiles, they need less wage competition and a chance to live and work somewhere other than Houston or NYC.
    Agreed.
    I do note that building out the infrastructure to distribute the economy geographically is likely to involve some public effort. But no disagreement on the basic point.

  411. yeah. i’ll skip him.
    Noted. He’s a bit over the edge on politics (OK lefty loon), but sometimes is very good on policy.
    Whatever floats your boat.

  412. yeah. i’ll skip him.
    Noted. He’s a bit over the edge on politics (OK lefty loon), but sometimes is very good on policy.
    Whatever floats your boat.

  413. I’m going to re-route my mail, including bills, most of which I don’t want, but which arrives promptly and cheaply via the U.S. Post Office, to McKinney’s address.
    I’ll bet it all gets there.
    Off-topic, look what Dreher and the malignant anti-American conservative movement are up to:
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/was-covid19-bioengineered-by-china/
    I comment near the bottom of the comment chain, pointing out one of his previously mistaken, but typically hysterical posts, on the same subject.
    To add to Dreher’s maunderings, a second conspiracy surfaces in the comments regarding the Coronavirus, that it was engineered by American intelligence services and loosed upon China by America.
    Let that rumor spread in China. Maybe they’ll nuke the Republican Party on our behalf.
    There’s a virus alright. The vector is the Republican Party.

  414. I’m going to re-route my mail, including bills, most of which I don’t want, but which arrives promptly and cheaply via the U.S. Post Office, to McKinney’s address.
    I’ll bet it all gets there.
    Off-topic, look what Dreher and the malignant anti-American conservative movement are up to:
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/was-covid19-bioengineered-by-china/
    I comment near the bottom of the comment chain, pointing out one of his previously mistaken, but typically hysterical posts, on the same subject.
    To add to Dreher’s maunderings, a second conspiracy surfaces in the comments regarding the Coronavirus, that it was engineered by American intelligence services and loosed upon China by America.
    Let that rumor spread in China. Maybe they’ll nuke the Republican Party on our behalf.
    There’s a virus alright. The vector is the Republican Party.

  415. to make things better for the bottom 3 quintiles, they need less wage competition and a chance to live and work somewhere other than Houston or NYC
    This is a truism. The question, however, is this: Which mix of public policies will engender a better outcome? Closing our borders won’t do it. There are other ways to induce a tighter labor market. Curbing “Free trade” does it for some (like doctors, lawyers, and Bill Gates), but by no means everybody.
    The big problem is the imbalance in economic outcomes and the maldistribution of economic power. Those familiar with the power of sovietized italics know where this leads.

  416. to make things better for the bottom 3 quintiles, they need less wage competition and a chance to live and work somewhere other than Houston or NYC
    This is a truism. The question, however, is this: Which mix of public policies will engender a better outcome? Closing our borders won’t do it. There are other ways to induce a tighter labor market. Curbing “Free trade” does it for some (like doctors, lawyers, and Bill Gates), but by no means everybody.
    The big problem is the imbalance in economic outcomes and the maldistribution of economic power. Those familiar with the power of sovietized italics know where this leads.

  417. We approve this message.
    So you approve breaking the law? You see, this is a classic example of how rich people think.
    Keep that in mind when some jerk like Malcolm Forbes starts bleating about “job creators”.

  418. We approve this message.
    So you approve breaking the law? You see, this is a classic example of how rich people think.
    Keep that in mind when some jerk like Malcolm Forbes starts bleating about “job creators”.

  419. bobbyp,
    Is implementing Medicare for All, even assuming it passes, going to be some sort of walk in the park?
    A question that is not really trying to deal with the possible policy options. Is what we have now a walk in the park? Is the fact that millions are currently going without health care socially acceptable to you?
    My point there was simply that a lot of Bruenig’s criticism was about the administrative difficulty of implementing Buttigieg’s plan. That’s not a defensible criticism unless his proposed alternative is administratively simpler, and it isn’t.
    Bruenig further complains about the “wildly unpopular” mandate, and provides a pretty inaccurate description of what’s going on. Whatever you think of the mandate, it is an effort to establish universal coverage.
    And look, things are going to have to be paid for, one way or the other. We can talk about that, and maybe Buttigieg’s plan is not perfection, but it’s an effort. Why shouldn’t we tell someone making $82K a year they either have to buy a policy or pay $7000 a year for government coverage? Want to make it more progressive? Fine. That can be done in an hour with a little help from Excel.
    I’m not a fan of MfA. First, I don’t think it would pass and we’d spend another too-long period trying to come up with something.
    Second, I’m not at all sure it would work. Countries that have universal government plans mostly implemented them a long time ago, when medical care was much cheaper and less elaborate, when private health insurance and private hospitals were much less well-established industries, when doctors practiced solo or in small partnerships. It’s a different world today. The transition would be a nightmare, and might easily fail utterly.
    I think Obamacare was a good start, and could have been, could still be, improved to give us a very workable system. That it was sabotaged is unfortunate, and the saboteurs are reprehensible, but that history might be a hint as to what MfA would be up against.

  420. bobbyp,
    Is implementing Medicare for All, even assuming it passes, going to be some sort of walk in the park?
    A question that is not really trying to deal with the possible policy options. Is what we have now a walk in the park? Is the fact that millions are currently going without health care socially acceptable to you?
    My point there was simply that a lot of Bruenig’s criticism was about the administrative difficulty of implementing Buttigieg’s plan. That’s not a defensible criticism unless his proposed alternative is administratively simpler, and it isn’t.
    Bruenig further complains about the “wildly unpopular” mandate, and provides a pretty inaccurate description of what’s going on. Whatever you think of the mandate, it is an effort to establish universal coverage.
    And look, things are going to have to be paid for, one way or the other. We can talk about that, and maybe Buttigieg’s plan is not perfection, but it’s an effort. Why shouldn’t we tell someone making $82K a year they either have to buy a policy or pay $7000 a year for government coverage? Want to make it more progressive? Fine. That can be done in an hour with a little help from Excel.
    I’m not a fan of MfA. First, I don’t think it would pass and we’d spend another too-long period trying to come up with something.
    Second, I’m not at all sure it would work. Countries that have universal government plans mostly implemented them a long time ago, when medical care was much cheaper and less elaborate, when private health insurance and private hospitals were much less well-established industries, when doctors practiced solo or in small partnerships. It’s a different world today. The transition would be a nightmare, and might easily fail utterly.
    I think Obamacare was a good start, and could have been, could still be, improved to give us a very workable system. That it was sabotaged is unfortunate, and the saboteurs are reprehensible, but that history might be a hint as to what MfA would be up against.

  421. My point there was simply that a lot of Bruenig’s criticism was about the administrative difficulty of implementing Buttigieg’s plan.
    I would agree with Bruenig that the Pete Plan has overly complex and administratively difficult attributes. If you don’t think that is the case, then state why it would not be so.
    That’s not a defensible criticism unless his proposed alternative is administratively simpler, and it isn’t.
    That’s like saying the prosecutor in a criminal trial first has to prove his innocence before presenting the state’s case.
    I’m for a fairly simple universal publicly funded health care program. You take your medicare card to the doctor and obtain healthcare services. The current system has administrative expenses that are quite low as compared to private health care through an insurance company.
    That’s my policy goal.
    Is Medicare For All currently politically umpossible? That is a different argument. I would agree it is highly unlikely to be implemented right now. That’s pretty obvious.
    But right now is not the same thing as forever. You are making a similar argument as some Whigs made in the 1850’s as they vainly tried to straddle the question of slavery: “Well, poop, it’s legal, it’s established, getting rid of it would be a political impossibility, so let’s find a way to kinda’ sorta’ live with it.”
    I see no reason why we should not at least ask for what we want. People do that all the time.
    Thanks.

  422. My point there was simply that a lot of Bruenig’s criticism was about the administrative difficulty of implementing Buttigieg’s plan.
    I would agree with Bruenig that the Pete Plan has overly complex and administratively difficult attributes. If you don’t think that is the case, then state why it would not be so.
    That’s not a defensible criticism unless his proposed alternative is administratively simpler, and it isn’t.
    That’s like saying the prosecutor in a criminal trial first has to prove his innocence before presenting the state’s case.
    I’m for a fairly simple universal publicly funded health care program. You take your medicare card to the doctor and obtain healthcare services. The current system has administrative expenses that are quite low as compared to private health care through an insurance company.
    That’s my policy goal.
    Is Medicare For All currently politically umpossible? That is a different argument. I would agree it is highly unlikely to be implemented right now. That’s pretty obvious.
    But right now is not the same thing as forever. You are making a similar argument as some Whigs made in the 1850’s as they vainly tried to straddle the question of slavery: “Well, poop, it’s legal, it’s established, getting rid of it would be a political impossibility, so let’s find a way to kinda’ sorta’ live with it.”
    I see no reason why we should not at least ask for what we want. People do that all the time.
    Thanks.

  423. And look, things are going to have to be paid for, one way or the other.
    19% of our GNP is spent on healthcare. We ALREADY have the most expensive system in the world. Other OCED countries provide near universal coverage, one way or the other, for about 40% less. And bonus points for us, millions still go uncovered.
    WE ALREADY PAY, AND PAY, AND PAY, AND PAY, AND PAY.
    This point should be obvious, but folks keep bringing it up as if was some kind of gotcha’ clincher.
    Apologies, but I do not agree.

  424. And look, things are going to have to be paid for, one way or the other.
    19% of our GNP is spent on healthcare. We ALREADY have the most expensive system in the world. Other OCED countries provide near universal coverage, one way or the other, for about 40% less. And bonus points for us, millions still go uncovered.
    WE ALREADY PAY, AND PAY, AND PAY, AND PAY, AND PAY.
    This point should be obvious, but folks keep bringing it up as if was some kind of gotcha’ clincher.
    Apologies, but I do not agree.

  425. I think Obamacare was a good start..
    I would agree it was about as good as we could get past Joe Lieberman.
    As a stand alone program evaluated as a policy independent of all the political considerations (which are considerable-thank you John Roberts) it is quite flawed.

  426. I think Obamacare was a good start..
    I would agree it was about as good as we could get past Joe Lieberman.
    As a stand alone program evaluated as a policy independent of all the political considerations (which are considerable-thank you John Roberts) it is quite flawed.

  427. Countries that have universal government plans mostly implemented them a long time ago
    Define “a long time ago”. 1950? I was alive then. Couldn’t have been that long ago.
    …when medical care was much cheaper and less elaborate..
    Health care technology has advanced greatly. So why is it so “expensive”? Usually, when technology is applied the output gets less expensive, not more expensive. So either there is some array of bad incentives driving these costs (policy), crime (rent seeking), or there is something about health care that makes delivering it via the private market sub-optimal (cf Kenneth Arrow).
    It’s a different world today.
    Yes. People routinely live into their late 70’s. They don’t just drop dead a couple years into their retirement.
    The transition would be a nightmare
    You know, I hear the same line when folks discuss getting serious about climate change.
    and might easily fail utterly.
    If you don’t ask, you don’t get.

  428. Countries that have universal government plans mostly implemented them a long time ago
    Define “a long time ago”. 1950? I was alive then. Couldn’t have been that long ago.
    …when medical care was much cheaper and less elaborate..
    Health care technology has advanced greatly. So why is it so “expensive”? Usually, when technology is applied the output gets less expensive, not more expensive. So either there is some array of bad incentives driving these costs (policy), crime (rent seeking), or there is something about health care that makes delivering it via the private market sub-optimal (cf Kenneth Arrow).
    It’s a different world today.
    Yes. People routinely live into their late 70’s. They don’t just drop dead a couple years into their retirement.
    The transition would be a nightmare
    You know, I hear the same line when folks discuss getting serious about climate change.
    and might easily fail utterly.
    If you don’t ask, you don’t get.

  429. The biggest plus of the ACA is the expansion of the Medicaid system to millions of poor who formerly had squat. This is a great thing.
    Last I heard, Medicaid (you got nothing, we’ll help) was a 100% publicly funded and administered program.
    I don’t recall a lot of horror stories about either adopting it or expanding it…unless maybe you watch Fox.
    Must have been an ‘effing miracle.

  430. The biggest plus of the ACA is the expansion of the Medicaid system to millions of poor who formerly had squat. This is a great thing.
    Last I heard, Medicaid (you got nothing, we’ll help) was a 100% publicly funded and administered program.
    I don’t recall a lot of horror stories about either adopting it or expanding it…unless maybe you watch Fox.
    Must have been an ‘effing miracle.

  431. things are going to have to be paid for, one way or the other.
    bobbyp: 19% of our GNP is spent on healthcare. We ALREADY have the most expensive system in the world. Other OCED countries provide near universal coverage, one way or the other, for about 40% less.
    No doubt our current approach to health care is massively inefficient. (As is our approach to primary and secondary education. Compared to, say, the Finns. But that’s a different rant.)
    But you can’t just wave a magic wand and redirect that 19% of the economy to go thru the government. You have to first get that money into the government’s hands — that is, a tax. You could just have what everybody (including companies with health care plans) currently pays, both to insurance and directly, become a tax instead. But you don’t want to do that, because it just means people bankrupting themselves to pay for healthcare shift to bankrupting themselves to pay taxes.
    So, who, what people and what companies, pay how much? For instance, are you setting up a progressive tax system? Certainly it’s a solvable problem. But honesty requires laying out the answer up front.
    And then, you have to decide what’s covered. If I crash my motorcycle (don’t actually have one), presumably I get bones set, cuts sewn up, blood loss replaced, etc. But does it matter if I crashed because I had decided to try doing wheelies on an ice covered road? Or suppose I’ve decided I want my epicanthic folds (don’t have those either) removed. Is that kind of cosmetic surgery covered?
    Oh yes. And what are your plans for the existing healthcare companies, the insurance companies, their stockholders, and their employees? Do you have the government buy out and liquidate the companies? Or do you just shut them down and stiff anyone who happens to own stock in them? Do you simply hire (and, frequently, retrain) all of their employees? Or just show them the door and let them fend for themselves in the job market?
    Again, solvable issues. But if you’re being honest, you ought to lay out the transition process up front.

  432. things are going to have to be paid for, one way or the other.
    bobbyp: 19% of our GNP is spent on healthcare. We ALREADY have the most expensive system in the world. Other OCED countries provide near universal coverage, one way or the other, for about 40% less.
    No doubt our current approach to health care is massively inefficient. (As is our approach to primary and secondary education. Compared to, say, the Finns. But that’s a different rant.)
    But you can’t just wave a magic wand and redirect that 19% of the economy to go thru the government. You have to first get that money into the government’s hands — that is, a tax. You could just have what everybody (including companies with health care plans) currently pays, both to insurance and directly, become a tax instead. But you don’t want to do that, because it just means people bankrupting themselves to pay for healthcare shift to bankrupting themselves to pay taxes.
    So, who, what people and what companies, pay how much? For instance, are you setting up a progressive tax system? Certainly it’s a solvable problem. But honesty requires laying out the answer up front.
    And then, you have to decide what’s covered. If I crash my motorcycle (don’t actually have one), presumably I get bones set, cuts sewn up, blood loss replaced, etc. But does it matter if I crashed because I had decided to try doing wheelies on an ice covered road? Or suppose I’ve decided I want my epicanthic folds (don’t have those either) removed. Is that kind of cosmetic surgery covered?
    Oh yes. And what are your plans for the existing healthcare companies, the insurance companies, their stockholders, and their employees? Do you have the government buy out and liquidate the companies? Or do you just shut them down and stiff anyone who happens to own stock in them? Do you simply hire (and, frequently, retrain) all of their employees? Or just show them the door and let them fend for themselves in the job market?
    Again, solvable issues. But if you’re being honest, you ought to lay out the transition process up front.

  433. Last I heard, Medicaid (you got nothing, we’ll help) was a 100% publicly funded and administered program.
    I don’t recall a lot of horror stories about either adopting it or expanding it…
    That part of Obamacare went smoothly because the whole infrastructure was already in place. The Feds were kicking in the money, so all the state agencies who administer it had to do was shift the threshold for eligibility. A tweak, nothing more.
    Actually, I think there have been problems . . . in the places which decided they wanted to tack on a work requirement. Because then you need an infrastructure to monitor and track that. Just another expansion of government, brought to you by the folks who profess to hate big government.

  434. Last I heard, Medicaid (you got nothing, we’ll help) was a 100% publicly funded and administered program.
    I don’t recall a lot of horror stories about either adopting it or expanding it…
    That part of Obamacare went smoothly because the whole infrastructure was already in place. The Feds were kicking in the money, so all the state agencies who administer it had to do was shift the threshold for eligibility. A tweak, nothing more.
    Actually, I think there have been problems . . . in the places which decided they wanted to tack on a work requirement. Because then you need an infrastructure to monitor and track that. Just another expansion of government, brought to you by the folks who profess to hate big government.

  435. But you don’t want to do that, because it just means people bankrupting themselves to pay for healthcare shift to bankrupting themselves to pay taxes.
    No.

  436. But you don’t want to do that, because it just means people bankrupting themselves to pay for healthcare shift to bankrupting themselves to pay taxes.
    No.

  437. Oh yes. And what are your plans for the existing healthcare companies, the insurance companies, their stockholders, and their employees?
    Well, they can just go the way of buggy whip makers and cigar rollers. “Go out and get a better job!” Isn’t that the conservative mantra when ordinary folks are swept up (or under) by large economic forces?
    That’s what I’ve always been told when somebody objects to shit wages.
    But really,
    Just why should I have a plan when those who whooped it up for China to join the WTO and watched the disappearance of good factory jobs here? What was your (not you in particular, but you know what I mean) plan? Coding classes?
    How did that work out?
    It’s pretty bad when healthcare geeks get nailed to the cross because they don’t trot out a detailed plan, but ideologues that plump for tax cuts for the rich, trickle down economics, and shipping working class jobs overseas get off scot free.
    IF THEY DON’T HAVE TO PROVIDE A PLAN, WELL FECK ‘EM. WE DON’T HAVE TO HAVE A DETAILED PLAN EITHER!
    And aspirational desires have nothing to do with politics? It’s all nuts and bolts and position papers? That’s how Trump won, right? Please.
    So I see that as essentially a bullshit question. MCA adherents are being held to a standard that no other policy prescription is being held to.
    Where are the crocodile tears when, just about every year, we increase defense spending? What about the widows and orphans?
    Jeezus.

  438. Oh yes. And what are your plans for the existing healthcare companies, the insurance companies, their stockholders, and their employees?
    Well, they can just go the way of buggy whip makers and cigar rollers. “Go out and get a better job!” Isn’t that the conservative mantra when ordinary folks are swept up (or under) by large economic forces?
    That’s what I’ve always been told when somebody objects to shit wages.
    But really,
    Just why should I have a plan when those who whooped it up for China to join the WTO and watched the disappearance of good factory jobs here? What was your (not you in particular, but you know what I mean) plan? Coding classes?
    How did that work out?
    It’s pretty bad when healthcare geeks get nailed to the cross because they don’t trot out a detailed plan, but ideologues that plump for tax cuts for the rich, trickle down economics, and shipping working class jobs overseas get off scot free.
    IF THEY DON’T HAVE TO PROVIDE A PLAN, WELL FECK ‘EM. WE DON’T HAVE TO HAVE A DETAILED PLAN EITHER!
    And aspirational desires have nothing to do with politics? It’s all nuts and bolts and position papers? That’s how Trump won, right? Please.
    So I see that as essentially a bullshit question. MCA adherents are being held to a standard that no other policy prescription is being held to.
    Where are the crocodile tears when, just about every year, we increase defense spending? What about the widows and orphans?
    Jeezus.

  439. Just another expansion of government, brought to you by the folks who profess to hate big government.
    yup. agree there.

  440. Just another expansion of government, brought to you by the folks who profess to hate big government.
    yup. agree there.

  441. Well, they can just go the way of buggy whip makers and cigar rollers. “Go out and get a better job!”
    If that’s your view and your plan, fine. Just so you make that clear when you are asking people to support.
    Of course, it does rather detract from your “We care about people” theme. Oh well.

  442. Well, they can just go the way of buggy whip makers and cigar rollers. “Go out and get a better job!”
    If that’s your view and your plan, fine. Just so you make that clear when you are asking people to support.
    Of course, it does rather detract from your “We care about people” theme. Oh well.

  443. Just why should I have a plan when those who whooped it up for China to join the WTO and watched the disappearance of good factory jobs here?
    …
    IF THEY DON’T HAVE TO PROVIDE A PLAN, WELL FECK ‘EM. WE DON’T HAVE TO HAVE A DETAILED PLAN EITHER!
    So you justify yourself by sinking to your opponents** level? I had thought better of you.
    ** That’s not the level of other Democrats. That’s the level of Trump and his boys. Which is way lower.

  444. Just why should I have a plan when those who whooped it up for China to join the WTO and watched the disappearance of good factory jobs here?
    …
    IF THEY DON’T HAVE TO PROVIDE A PLAN, WELL FECK ‘EM. WE DON’T HAVE TO HAVE A DETAILED PLAN EITHER!
    So you justify yourself by sinking to your opponents** level? I had thought better of you.
    ** That’s not the level of other Democrats. That’s the level of Trump and his boys. Which is way lower.

  445. There may be a difference between having and providing a plan. As we all know, (true American) voters HATE details and those who bother them with those. So, asking to provide the details in advance is a classic trap. Conventional GOPsters (i.e. Moscow Mitch not Jabbabonk) have detailed plans (to screw us and to benefit their financial backers) but will get extremly angry when you ask them about the details (in particular the true ones, not the lies put out for general consumption). It’s ‘tax cuts (for the rich) and wars pay for themselves. OUR deficts don’t matter’ and no details are needed because it can’t per definitionem be screwed up (except if tax cuts get extended to the lower 90%, then the results will be catastrophic).
    But for anything else, nothing is acceptable unless all details for all possible scenarios (inculding meteor strikes, zombie apocalypses and the second coming of Zarquon) are provided in advance and then the plans will get attacked for being too complicated (i.e. more than half a page, double spaced).
    So, have a detailed plan in your pocket but provide the details only on a one-on-one personal basis, not in stump speeches, ads or on bumper stickers.

  446. There may be a difference between having and providing a plan. As we all know, (true American) voters HATE details and those who bother them with those. So, asking to provide the details in advance is a classic trap. Conventional GOPsters (i.e. Moscow Mitch not Jabbabonk) have detailed plans (to screw us and to benefit their financial backers) but will get extremly angry when you ask them about the details (in particular the true ones, not the lies put out for general consumption). It’s ‘tax cuts (for the rich) and wars pay for themselves. OUR deficts don’t matter’ and no details are needed because it can’t per definitionem be screwed up (except if tax cuts get extended to the lower 90%, then the results will be catastrophic).
    But for anything else, nothing is acceptable unless all details for all possible scenarios (inculding meteor strikes, zombie apocalypses and the second coming of Zarquon) are provided in advance and then the plans will get attacked for being too complicated (i.e. more than half a page, double spaced).
    So, have a detailed plan in your pocket but provide the details only on a one-on-one personal basis, not in stump speeches, ads or on bumper stickers.

  447. “ Donald is not Tulsi-averse.”
    I missed this. I like most of what Tulsi says, but people say several things about her which would be disturbing to the extent they are true. That’s the catch. Of course some of the accusations could be true and others false and others distorted and I suspect that is correct just on statistical grounds. I’ve mostly ignored the question since she is in the low single digits. I’d be immensely surprised if Bernie picked her— some far left Sanders supporters are definitely not in her fan club.
    I don’t have strong feelings about Steyer either. Haven’t looked into him. Same reason. Low polls last I heard.
    Despise Bloomberg with every fiber of my being. No time for rants, though.

  448. “ Donald is not Tulsi-averse.”
    I missed this. I like most of what Tulsi says, but people say several things about her which would be disturbing to the extent they are true. That’s the catch. Of course some of the accusations could be true and others false and others distorted and I suspect that is correct just on statistical grounds. I’ve mostly ignored the question since she is in the low single digits. I’d be immensely surprised if Bernie picked her— some far left Sanders supporters are definitely not in her fan club.
    I don’t have strong feelings about Steyer either. Haven’t looked into him. Same reason. Low polls last I heard.
    Despise Bloomberg with every fiber of my being. No time for rants, though.

  449. Things will never be awesome for the US bottom quintile compared to the US top quintile; however, they will always be comparatively far superior for the bottom quintile than any other viable option anywhere else on the planet.
    What planet are you living on? There are dozens of countries where poor and sick people are treated far better than in the US.

  450. Things will never be awesome for the US bottom quintile compared to the US top quintile; however, they will always be comparatively far superior for the bottom quintile than any other viable option anywhere else on the planet.
    What planet are you living on? There are dozens of countries where poor and sick people are treated far better than in the US.

  453. That’s like saying the prosecutor in a criminal trial first has to prove his innocence before presenting the state’s case.
    I don’t think so. You can’t criticize one plan for being overly complex while endorsing another that is just as complex. That’s like saying, “We should do A instead of B because B is too expensive,” when A is just as expensive.
    I’m for a fairly simple universal publicly funded health care program. You take your medicare card to the doctor and obtain healthcare services.
    I’m all for simplicity, but you are just assuming it in the case of MfA.
    19% of our GNP is spent on healthcare. We ALREADY have the most expensive system in the world. Other OCED countries provide near universal coverage, one way or the other, for about 40% less. And bonus points for us, millions still go uncovered.
    Yes. It’s inefficient. But even MfA has to be paid for, including the cost of covering thise extra 26 million or so who are now uninsured. Sure, the taxes will replace insurance costs to some extent, but let’s at least recognize this. I admit to not having a good understanding of where our extra costs come from, but waving hands and claiming MfA will fix it is unconvincing.
    Define “a long time ago”. 1950? I was alive then. Couldn’t have been that long ago.

    It was a long time ago in terms of medical technology and how we pay for care. I was alive then too. I remember my mother taking me to the doctor and paying cash at the end of the visit. The doctor just put the money in a cash box in a desk drawer and went on to the next patient. No bill, no insurance card, no credit card, not even a check. Just cash.
    Yes. People routinely live into their late 70’s. They don’t just drop dead a couple years into their retirement.
    Yes. And that almost surely contributes to the increased cost of medical care today.
    The transition would be a nightmare
    You know, I hear the same line when folks discuss getting serious about climate change.
    Well, because an argument is silly in one context doesn’t make it silly everywhere. Besides, isn’t addressing climate change something that needs to be done privately, with a lot of governmental carrots and sticks – carbon taxes, subsidies for solar/wind, improved and cheaper mass transit, etc.?

  454. That’s like saying the prosecutor in a criminal trial first has to prove his innocence before presenting the state’s case.
    I don’t think so. You can’t criticize one plan for being overly complex while endorsing another that is just as complex. That’s like saying, “We should do A instead of B because B is too expensive,” when A is just as expensive.
    I’m for a fairly simple universal publicly funded health care program. You take your medicare card to the doctor and obtain healthcare services.
    I’m all for simplicity, but you are just assuming it in the case of MfA.
    19% of our GNP is spent on healthcare. We ALREADY have the most expensive system in the world. Other OCED countries provide near universal coverage, one way or the other, for about 40% less. And bonus points for us, millions still go uncovered.
    Yes. It’s inefficient. But even MfA has to be paid for, including the cost of covering thise extra 26 million or so who are now uninsured. Sure, the taxes will replace insurance costs to some extent, but let’s at least recognize this. I admit to not having a good understanding of where our extra costs come from, but waving hands and claiming MfA will fix it is unconvincing.
    Define “a long time ago”. 1950? I was alive then. Couldn’t have been that long ago.

    It was a long time ago in terms of medical technology and how we pay for care. I was alive then too. I remember my mother taking me to the doctor and paying cash at the end of the visit. The doctor just put the money in a cash box in a desk drawer and went on to the next patient. No bill, no insurance card, no credit card, not even a check. Just cash.
    Yes. People routinely live into their late 70’s. They don’t just drop dead a couple years into their retirement.
    Yes. And that almost surely contributes to the increased cost of medical care today.
    The transition would be a nightmare
    You know, I hear the same line when folks discuss getting serious about climate change.
    Well, because an argument is silly in one context doesn’t make it silly everywhere. Besides, isn’t addressing climate change something that needs to be done privately, with a lot of governmental carrots and sticks – carbon taxes, subsidies for solar/wind, improved and cheaper mass transit, etc.?

  461. wj,
    you have demonstrated the dire need for a sarcasm font here. Thanks.
    bobbyp
    It’s a serious impediment. These days, we find people saying things in all seriousness that, a decade ago, everyone (outside a lunatic fringe which actually was a fringe) would have recognized as sarcasm. For the simple reason that it was so obviously daft. Now, it’s no longer something we can count on.
    I think there’s something to be said for just typing
    /sarcasm
    when it was. I’ll make a mental note to do so myself.

  462. wj,
    you have demonstrated the dire need for a sarcasm font here. Thanks.
    bobbyp
    It’s a serious impediment. These days, we find people saying things in all seriousness that, a decade ago, everyone (outside a lunatic fringe which actually was a fringe) would have recognized as sarcasm. For the simple reason that it was so obviously daft. Now, it’s no longer something we can count on.
    I think there’s something to be said for just typing
    /sarcasm
    when it was. I’ll make a mental note to do so myself.

  465. possible sarcasm font:
    <pre>sarcasm goes here</pre>
    it adds paragraph breaks before and after, so you can’t use it in-line.

  466. possible sarcasm font:
    <pre>sarcasm goes here</pre>
    it adds paragraph breaks before and after, so you can’t use it in-line.

  467. Definitely a thought. Although we might want to consider a way to tell new users about that particular convention, should we adopt it.

  468. Definitely a thought. Although we might want to consider a way to tell new users about that particular convention, should we adopt it.

  471. What planet are you living on? There are dozens of countries where poor and sick people are treated far better than in the US.
    I live on a planet called Earth, where the phrase “any other viable option” has a particular and well understood meaning. You?

  472. What planet are you living on? There are dozens of countries where poor and sick people are treated far better than in the US.
    I live on a planet called Earth, where the phrase “any other viable option” has a particular and well understood meaning. You?

  475. Speaking of “planet Earth” and what is well understood. ..
    Three senior congressional Republicans — Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell, House minority leader Kevin McCarthy and Senate judiciary committee chairman Lindsey Graham — have issued a statement in support of attorney general William Barr.
    The statement describes Barr as “a man of the highest character and unquestionable integrity” …

  476. Speaking of “planet Earth” and what is well understood. ..
    Three senior congressional Republicans — Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell, House minority leader Kevin McCarthy and Senate judiciary committee chairman Lindsey Graham — have issued a statement in support of attorney general William Barr.
    The statement describes Barr as “a man of the highest character and unquestionable integrity” …

  477. I see the new chief law enforcement officer (sic) has taken it upon himself to pardon all the grifters.
    An important precedent to be established ?

  478. I see the new chief law enforcement officer (sic) has taken it upon himself to pardon all the grifters.
    An important precedent to be established ?

  479. I see the new chief law enforcement officer (sic) has taken it upon himself to pardon all the grifters.
    It’s not quite that bad. In the case of ex-Illinois Governor Blagojevich, he merely commuted the sentence. But no pardon as such. (Of course, that may just be Trump not comprehending the difference….)
    But yeah, the message definitely looks to be “Corruption should not be penalized.”

  480. I see the new chief law enforcement officer (sic) has taken it upon himself to pardon all the grifters.
    It’s not quite that bad. In the case of ex-Illinois Governor Blagojevich, he merely commuted the sentence. But no pardon as such. (Of course, that may just be Trump not comprehending the difference….)
    But yeah, the message definitely looks to be “Corruption should not be penalized.”

  483. To Donald’s point, I’ve had several students in my Children in Armed Conflict research class researching the effects of sanctions. At least one of those students was writing about NK having just returned to school from his 18 months of required service in the army. He started out the term arguing for heavier sanctions (this right after the King Lear Jet/Rocket Man tryst in Vietnam). After he started doing serious research into the effects of sanctions, he made an about face and started supporting multilateral negotiations instead.
    His was the most striking example, but of all of the students I’ve had who started with a focus on sanctions, not one of them – left or right – came out of the research thinking that sanctions were an easy answer to foreign policy conundrums. They need to be well considered and limited in their use because they exert less political pressure than the humanitarian harm they do if used for any extended period.

  484. To Donald’s point, I’ve had several students in my Children in Armed Conflict research class researching the effects of sanctions. At least one of those students was writing about NK having just returned to school from his 18 months of required service in the army. He started out the term arguing for heavier sanctions (this right after the King Lear Jet/Rocket Man tryst in Vietnam). After he started doing serious research into the effects of sanctions, he made an about face and started supporting multilateral negotiations instead.
    His was the most striking example, but of all of the students I’ve had who started with a focus on sanctions, not one of them – left or right – came out of the research thinking that sanctions were an easy answer to foreign policy conundrums. They need to be well considered and limited in their use because they exert less political pressure than the humanitarian harm they do if used for any extended period.

  487. Generic sanctions, those applied to a country, are one thing. I don’t have knowledge of how well they work on how much damage they do along the way.
    But sanctions applied against individuals are another story. The pain is focused on the person you actually care about, with little probable impact on others.

  488. Generic sanctions, those applied to a country, are one thing. I don’t have knowledge of how well they work on how much damage they do along the way.
    But sanctions applied against individuals are another story. The pain is focused on the person you actually care about, with little probable impact on others.

  489. Meanwhile,Trump’s approval ratings creep up.
    It’ll be interesting to see if his pardoning or commuting for Blagojevich et al has any effect on his “anti-elite” base.

  490. Meanwhile,Trump’s approval ratings creep up.
    It’ll be interesting to see if his pardoning or commuting for Blagojevich et al has any effect on his “anti-elite” base.

  491. Meanwhile Johnson aims to dismantle the BBC, also with anti-elitist message it seems from what my (German) newspaper states.

  492. Meanwhile Johnson aims to dismantle the BBC, also with anti-elitist message it seems from what my (German) newspaper states.

  493. You’re not wrong in essence, Hartmut. Let’s hope he overreaches, and that the e.g.Brexiteer heartland wakes up to what’s at stake – I would have said that the BBC and the NHS are the jewels in our national crown, so you’ll understand that I’m far from confident.

  494. You’re not wrong in essence, Hartmut. Let’s hope he overreaches, and that the e.g.Brexiteer heartland wakes up to what’s at stake – I would have said that the BBC and the NHS are the jewels in our national crown, so you’ll understand that I’m far from confident.

  499. From a distance, Canadian healthcare looks better than it may be. They have their own problems
    Their healthcare is a perennial political football with all the stakeholders fighting for faster and better treatment, shorter work hours and better pay, etc.
    Some aspects of healthcare are not covered. Usually things like dental care. But it varies from province to province. For things that are covered, it’s illegal to pay for or accept payment for the care.
    They have a shortage of doctors. People in rural areas may have to travel several hours to see whatever doctor they can get an appointment with.
    Healthcare may be OK for most people most of the time. But for anyone with an unusual and/or expensive condition to treat, the condition may get much worse or they may die while waiting for treatment.
    More than 200,000 Canadians a year seek medical treatment in other countries. There are businesses in Canada whose purpose is to help facilitate them doing so. Drive through the parking lots of US hospitals just south of the Canadian border and you’ll see Canadian license plates. Some of them in staff parking spaces.

  500. From a distance, Canadian healthcare looks better than it may be. They have their own problems
    Their healthcare is a perennial political football with all the stakeholders fighting for faster and better treatment, shorter work hours and better pay, etc.
    Some aspects of healthcare are not covered. Usually things like dental care. But it varies from province to province. For things that are covered, it’s illegal to pay for or accept payment for the care.
    They have a shortage of doctors. People in rural areas may have to travel several hours to see whatever doctor they can get an appointment with.
    Healthcare may be OK for most people most of the time. But for anyone with an unusual and/or expensive condition to treat, the condition may get much worse or they may die while waiting for treatment.
    More than 200,000 Canadians a year seek medical treatment in other countries. There are businesses in Canada whose purpose is to help facilitate them doing so. Drive through the parking lots of US hospitals just south of the Canadian border and you’ll see Canadian license plates. Some of them in staff parking spaces.

  501. How is the availability in rural areas in the US in comparision? And the population density in Canada drops rapidly going North. How many patients does a ‘for profit’ doctor need to make a living and what land area does that equal? Australia has its Flying Doctor Service to deal with that problem. How is it up North or in rural flyover country in the US?

  502. How is the availability in rural areas in the US in comparision? And the population density in Canada drops rapidly going North. How many patients does a ‘for profit’ doctor need to make a living and what land area does that equal? Australia has its Flying Doctor Service to deal with that problem. How is it up North or in rural flyover country in the US?

  505. his pardoning or commuting for Blagojevich
    will establish his bi-partisan credentials, at least in the eyes of his supporters.
    look, he commuted the sentence of a (D)!
    People in rural areas may have to travel several hours
    No different here. Pick a rural county and see how they measure up.
    No small number have 0 physicians. None. Not a lot of people, either, in many cases. But no docs.

  506. his pardoning or commuting for Blagojevich
    will establish his bi-partisan credentials, at least in the eyes of his supporters.
    look, he commuted the sentence of a (D)!
    People in rural areas may have to travel several hours
    No different here. Pick a rural county and see how they measure up.
    No small number have 0 physicians. None. Not a lot of people, either, in many cases. But no docs.

  507. FWIW, the US and CA are about even in terms of primary care physicians per 1,000 people. That distribution is obviously not consistent across either country, both of which have both densely populated and extremely sparsely populated areas.
    neither compares well with pretty much any other OECD nation, or with any of the Russian federation nations for that matter.
    Number of physicians doesn’t necessarily translate directly into better care, it’s just one among many indicators.
    Long story short, I’ve yet to meet a Canadian who would swap their system for ours. Some may come to the US for specific reasons, but they are not lobbying their government for a change of plan.

  508. FWIW, the US and CA are about even in terms of primary care physicians per 1,000 people. That distribution is obviously not consistent across either country, both of which have both densely populated and extremely sparsely populated areas.
    neither compares well with pretty much any other OECD nation, or with any of the Russian federation nations for that matter.
    Number of physicians doesn’t necessarily translate directly into better care, it’s just one among many indicators.
    Long story short, I’ve yet to meet a Canadian who would swap their system for ours. Some may come to the US for specific reasons, but they are not lobbying their government for a change of plan.

  509. Impoverishing the unfortunate citizens of an authoritarian government we don’t support shows how much we care.
    Propping up Kim Il Jong or Big Dadda Idi Amin and and letting someone like that dole out the goodies doesn’t help the unfortunate citizens either; neo-isolationists/pacifists have their own moral donut hole. Standing idly by and tut-tutting in the name of holding the high moral while crimes against humanity are a routine part of some other country’s program isn’t even remotely moral in my book. Eschewing regime-change under any and all circumstances could have changed the outcome of WWII in a material and disastrous way. Sometimes all of the options are shitty and some are just less shitty than others. Most really awful stories do not have happy endings, and many of those stories do not end at all. Not trying to make a difference in places like N Korea or Iran is an all-world cop-out. Some assholes are just beyond the pale. I’m pretty much there with the Saudis as well.
    Who is going to take ownership if lifting sanctions actually makes things worse? I sense a huge accountability deficit.

  510. Impoverishing the unfortunate citizens of an authoritarian government we don’t support shows how much we care.
    Propping up Kim Il Jong or Big Dadda Idi Amin and and letting someone like that dole out the goodies doesn’t help the unfortunate citizens either; neo-isolationists/pacifists have their own moral donut hole. Standing idly by and tut-tutting in the name of holding the high moral while crimes against humanity are a routine part of some other country’s program isn’t even remotely moral in my book. Eschewing regime-change under any and all circumstances could have changed the outcome of WWII in a material and disastrous way. Sometimes all of the options are shitty and some are just less shitty than others. Most really awful stories do not have happy endings, and many of those stories do not end at all. Not trying to make a difference in places like N Korea or Iran is an all-world cop-out. Some assholes are just beyond the pale. I’m pretty much there with the Saudis as well.
    Who is going to take ownership if lifting sanctions actually makes things worse? I sense a huge accountability deficit.

  515. byomtov:
    Yes. It’s inefficient. But even MfA has to be paid for, including the cost of covering those extra 26 million or so who are now uninsured. Sure, the taxes will replace insurance costs to some extent, but let’s at least recognize this. I admit to not having a good understanding of where our extra costs come from, but waving hands and claiming MfA will fix it is unconvincing.
    I have said it many times before: “health care spending” includes residuals for the actors in boner pill commercials, here in the USA. Not so in civilized countries.
    That 19% of GDP is income to a lot of people, including hospital “case managers” who are paid to argue with insurance company “case managers” for a solid 8 hours over whether an 87yo woman who is in the ER after a fall at home should be sent to “rehab”. (Guess how I know.) That 19% also includes the income of hospital janitors, insurance company CEOs, and even MY income for the several years I was engineering a medical device. Lots and lots of people feed at the trough of “health care”.
    As I have also said before: 19% of GDP has to be spent on SOMETHING, and if not “health care” then what? Legal services? Financial analysis? Gambling? Booze? Why is it “health care” in particular that we need to spend less on?
    And of course health care costs are not confined to the dollars that economists track to measure either GDP or the fraction of it that is health care spending. Frustration, and aggravation, and an urge to pull out your hair and throw things — these are also costs. And the current system of insurance is well-designed to maximize those for patients, caregivers, and even medical professionals who actually give a damn about their human patients.
    The only sure cure for suffering is death. The only possible cure for our health care “system” is for us Baby Boomers to die off and take our “free enterprise” fetish with us.
    Short of that, maybe we can manage to get it into our heads that “health insurance” is a financial service. You don’t pay your Blue Cross premiums to ward off disease. Government-administered health insurance may (just may) still be compatible with “free market” medical care. The “free market” will never chase after business in East Boondock, Idaho any more than the “broadband industry” would, of course, so government may still have to provide the actual care that ruggedly self-reliant down-with-tyranny types need.
    Meanwhile, can we at least agree that TV ads for boner pills are a sure sign that our current “system” is fucked up?
    –TP

  516. byomtov:
    Yes. It’s inefficient. But even MfA has to be paid for, including the cost of covering those extra 26 million or so who are now uninsured. Sure, the taxes will replace insurance costs to some extent, but let’s at least recognize this. I admit to not having a good understanding of where our extra costs come from, but waving hands and claiming MfA will fix it is unconvincing.
    I have said it many times before: “health care spending” includes residuals for the actors in boner pill commercials, here in the USA. Not so in civilized countries.
    That 19% of GDP is income to a lot of people, including hospital “case managers” who are paid to argue with insurance company “case managers” for a solid 8 hours over whether an 87yo woman who is in the ER after a fall at home should be sent to “rehab”. (Guess how I know.) That 19% also includes the income of hospital janitors, insurance company CEOs, and even MY income for the several years I was engineering a medical device. Lots and lots of people feed at the trough of “health care”.
    As I have also said before: 19% of GDP has to be spent on SOMETHING, and if not “health care” then what? Legal services? Financial analysis? Gambling? Booze? Why is it “health care” in particular that we need to spend less on?
    And of course health care costs are not confined to the dollars that economists track to measure either GDP or the fraction of it that is health care spending. Frustration, and aggravation, and an urge to pull out your hair and throw things — these are also costs. And the current system of insurance is well-designed to maximize those for patients, caregivers, and even medical professionals who actually give a damn about their human patients.
    The only sure cure for suffering is death. The only possible cure for our health care “system” is for us Baby Boomers to die off and take our “free enterprise” fetish with us.
    Short of that, maybe we can manage to get it into our heads that “health insurance” is a financial service. You don’t pay your Blue Cross premiums to ward off disease. Government-administered health insurance may (just may) still be compatible with “free market” medical care. The “free market” will never chase after business in East Boondock, Idaho any more than the “broadband industry” would, of course, so government may still have to provide the actual care that ruggedly self-reliant down-with-tyranny types need.
    Meanwhile, can we at least agree that TV ads for boner pills are a sure sign that our current “system” is fucked up?
    –TP

  517. all people who have spent the last 20 years praising that pardon
    This. I’ve never met a liberal (anywhere) or Dem in the US who has expressed anything but disapproval, nay contempt, for that pardon.

  518. all people who have spent the last 20 years praising that pardon
    This. I’ve never met a liberal (anywhere) or Dem in the US who has expressed anything but disapproval, nay contempt, for that pardon.

  519. Is that a gotcha for all people who have spent the last 20 years praising that pardon?
    No, it’s a reminder that glass houses are on both sides of the street. The whole “norms” thing didn’t start in 2016.

  520. Is that a gotcha for all people who have spent the last 20 years praising that pardon?
    No, it’s a reminder that glass houses are on both sides of the street. The whole “norms” thing didn’t start in 2016.

  521. Trump also pardoned a huge donor.
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-grants-clemency-to-another-round-of-people-he-saw-on-fox-news

    Paul Pogue, a construction company owner who pleaded guilty to underpaying his taxes by $473,000 and received three years probation, was issued a full pardon and clemency by the president.
    According to FEC filings, Pogue’s family has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars in direct contributions and in-kind air travel to the Trump Victory Committee. Beginning in August 2019, Ben Pogue—CEO of Pogue Construction and son of Paul Pogue—and his wife Ashleigh made over $200,000 in contributions to the campaign.
    In August alone, Ben Pogue donated $85,000 to Trump Victory while Ashleigh Pogue contributed $50,000 that month. The following month, Ben Pogue made an in-kind air travel contribution of $75,404.40. The couple also made several large donations to the Republican National Committee and each donated $5,600 to Donald Trump for President Inc.
    On the day of their first donation to the Trump campaign, Ashleigh posted an Instagram photo of her and her husband posing with Donald Trump Jr. and his girlfriend, Kimberly Guilfoyle, at the Hamptons.
    Prior to the Pogues’ sudden significant donating spree to Trump and the Republicans, the couple was not seen as big campaign spenders, having donated a few thousand dollars for Paul Ryan’s congressional campaign in 2017 and $5,400 for former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum’s 2016 Republican presidential run.

    norm set.
    enjoy!

  522. Trump also pardoned a huge donor.
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-grants-clemency-to-another-round-of-people-he-saw-on-fox-news

    Paul Pogue, a construction company owner who pleaded guilty to underpaying his taxes by $473,000 and received three years probation, was issued a full pardon and clemency by the president.
    According to FEC filings, Pogue’s family has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars in direct contributions and in-kind air travel to the Trump Victory Committee. Beginning in August 2019, Ben Pogue—CEO of Pogue Construction and son of Paul Pogue—and his wife Ashleigh made over $200,000 in contributions to the campaign.
    In August alone, Ben Pogue donated $85,000 to Trump Victory while Ashleigh Pogue contributed $50,000 that month. The following month, Ben Pogue made an in-kind air travel contribution of $75,404.40. The couple also made several large donations to the Republican National Committee and each donated $5,600 to Donald Trump for President Inc.
    On the day of their first donation to the Trump campaign, Ashleigh posted an Instagram photo of her and her husband posing with Donald Trump Jr. and his girlfriend, Kimberly Guilfoyle, at the Hamptons.
    Prior to the Pogues’ sudden significant donating spree to Trump and the Republicans, the couple was not seen as big campaign spenders, having donated a few thousand dollars for Paul Ryan’s congressional campaign in 2017 and $5,400 for former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum’s 2016 Republican presidential run.

    norm set.
    enjoy!

  525. Now we know McKinney thinks Trump is no worse than anyone else, on either side of the street.
    Sure, that’s what I think. I have no issue with lefty heads exploding today when there was near-universal silence way-back-when. Put differently: A fair subset of DT’s corruption is Clinton times X. Many of DT’s loudest critics today were either silent or complicit back in the day. The near-flip side is patently true as well: the Repubs’ high moral dudgeon back then is an even grosser form of hypocrisy now. But the left needs to own Clinton. I’m not letting either side off .

  526. Now we know McKinney thinks Trump is no worse than anyone else, on either side of the street.
    Sure, that’s what I think. I have no issue with lefty heads exploding today when there was near-universal silence way-back-when. Put differently: A fair subset of DT’s corruption is Clinton times X. Many of DT’s loudest critics today were either silent or complicit back in the day. The near-flip side is patently true as well: the Repubs’ high moral dudgeon back then is an even grosser form of hypocrisy now. But the left needs to own Clinton. I’m not letting either side off .

  527. Many of DT’s loudest critics today were either silent or complicit back in the day
    several of them were in their teens or younger.
    But the left needs to own Clinton.
    because he’s President?

  528. Many of DT’s loudest critics today were either silent or complicit back in the day
    several of them were in their teens or younger.
    But the left needs to own Clinton.
    because he’s President?

  531. because he’s President?
    No, to be taken seriously by anyone outside the bubble. You think the Repubs are a cult because they shill for DT. Take that to its logical conclusion.

  532. because he’s President?
    No, to be taken seriously by anyone outside the bubble. You think the Repubs are a cult because they shill for DT. Take that to its logical conclusion.

  533. The left never liked Clinton much, triangulating centrist that he was. The hive mind ain’t what it’s cracked up to be.

  534. The left never liked Clinton much, triangulating centrist that he was. The hive mind ain’t what it’s cracked up to be.

  535. McKinney, did you see my 1.04 where we cross posted? It’s anecdotal, but it’s gospel truth. Dems were not all in for WJC the way 90/94% of Rs appear to be for Trump, whatever he does.

  536. McKinney, did you see my 1.04 where we cross posted? It’s anecdotal, but it’s gospel truth. Dems were not all in for WJC the way 90/94% of Rs appear to be for Trump, whatever he does.

  537. Back to our USPS, here are two emails received in the last 30 minutes:
    1. Upon further research, I did find that we paid the past due balance of XXXX when we received the February 4, 2020 invoice.
    The check was mailed on February 12, 2020 on check number 513909.
    Hopefully you should receive the check any day. Please let me know If you do not receive it by the end of the week.
    2. The billing for invoice 1913 was received on 12-2-19, funding received from the carrier on 12-10-19. Check issued on 12-10-19 and mailed on 12-10-19.
    I am checking to see if the check has been cashed. If it has not, I will stop pay and reissue.
    This is the kind of BS we deal with regularly. This is why I’m not good with MFA or any other federal monopoly.

  538. Back to our USPS, here are two emails received in the last 30 minutes:
    1. Upon further research, I did find that we paid the past due balance of XXXX when we received the February 4, 2020 invoice.
    The check was mailed on February 12, 2020 on check number 513909.
    Hopefully you should receive the check any day. Please let me know If you do not receive it by the end of the week.
    2. The billing for invoice 1913 was received on 12-2-19, funding received from the carrier on 12-10-19. Check issued on 12-10-19 and mailed on 12-10-19.
    I am checking to see if the check has been cashed. If it has not, I will stop pay and reissue.
    This is the kind of BS we deal with regularly. This is why I’m not good with MFA or any other federal monopoly.

  539. McKinney, did you see my 1.04 where we cross posted? It’s anecdotal, but it’s gospel truth. Dems were not all in for WJC the way 90/94% of Rs appear to be for Trump, whatever he does.
    My recollection is that Dems were largely–very largely–silent on the Mark Rich pardon at the time and co-dependent enablers on all of the other stuff BC did back then.
    Now that HRC is out of the picture, Dems are more willing, well after the fact, to be less accommodating.
    I’m not excusing DT. Recall that I favored his impeachment. I just grow weary of people finding their voice now when they had lockjaw then.

  540. McKinney, did you see my 1.04 where we cross posted? It’s anecdotal, but it’s gospel truth. Dems were not all in for WJC the way 90/94% of Rs appear to be for Trump, whatever he does.
    My recollection is that Dems were largely–very largely–silent on the Mark Rich pardon at the time and co-dependent enablers on all of the other stuff BC did back then.
    Now that HRC is out of the picture, Dems are more willing, well after the fact, to be less accommodating.
    I’m not excusing DT. Recall that I favored his impeachment. I just grow weary of people finding their voice now when they had lockjaw then.

  541. No, to be taken seriously by anyone outside the bubble.
    oh my.
    nobody outside the bubble knows who Mark Rich is.
    you’re livin la tu quoque loca.

  542. No, to be taken seriously by anyone outside the bubble.
    oh my.
    nobody outside the bubble knows who Mark Rich is.
    you’re livin la tu quoque loca.

  545. Some people somewhere had inconsistent views over the span of two decades. What the f**k are we talking about?

  546. Some people somewhere had inconsistent views over the span of two decades. What the f**k are we talking about?

  547. Some people somewhere had inconsistent views over the span of two decades.
    “inconsistent views”? Or might it be that they contrived to learn something over that span?
    If one might suggest, learning is generally a good thing. Consistency in error would not seem to have much to recommend it.

  548. Some people somewhere had inconsistent views over the span of two decades.
    “inconsistent views”? Or might it be that they contrived to learn something over that span?
    If one might suggest, learning is generally a good thing. Consistency in error would not seem to have much to recommend it.

  549. Tony,
    Meanwhile, can we at least agree that TV ads for boner pills are a sure sign that our current “system” is fucked up?
    Sign me up.

  550. Tony,
    Meanwhile, can we at least agree that TV ads for boner pills are a sure sign that our current “system” is fucked up?
    Sign me up.

  555. McK,
    neo-isolationists/pacifists have their own moral donut hole. Standing idly by and tut-tutting in the name of holding the high moral while crimes against humanity are a routine part of some other country’s program isn’t even remotely moral in my book.
    When it comes to sanctions, I can speak to some degree about Cuba, having visited fairly often and gotten to know a number of Cubans. In short, our sanctions are inhumane and counterproductive. They are unwise and immoral.
    Why? First, the people, ordinary Cubans, suffer.* They are poorer, less healthy, generally less well off than they would be without the sanctions.
    And politically sanctions accomplish less than nothing. They provide the government with a convenient excuse for the poor economic conditions, and certainly don’t leave the population feeling more kindly towards the US (though they are quite friendly and welcoming to visiting Americans). They strengthen the hand of the government rather than weakening it.
    So, if you’re looking for someone to blame if lifting the sanctions makes things worse, blame me. I’ll live with it, provided I get credit for the benefits.
    *As an aside, Trump’s reversal of Obama’s loosening of travel restrictions was awful. More than a few Cubans expected, reasonably, a tourism boom, and spent money to open small restaurants, or fix up a room to rent to tourists. Even buying some plates, silverware, and pots and pans are a huge outlay for Cubans. To see it go to waste because of Trump’s pointless move is quite sad.

  556. McK,
    neo-isolationists/pacifists have their own moral donut hole. Standing idly by and tut-tutting in the name of holding the high moral while crimes against humanity are a routine part of some other country’s program isn’t even remotely moral in my book.
    When it comes to sanctions, I can speak to some degree about Cuba, having visited fairly often and gotten to know a number of Cubans. In short, our sanctions are inhumane and counterproductive. They are unwise and immoral.
    Why? First, the people, ordinary Cubans, suffer.* They are poorer, less healthy, generally less well off than they would be without the sanctions.
    And politically sanctions accomplish less than nothing. They provide the government with a convenient excuse for the poor economic conditions, and certainly don’t leave the population feeling more kindly towards the US (though they are quite friendly and welcoming to visiting Americans). They strengthen the hand of the government rather than weakening it.
    So, if you’re looking for someone to blame if lifting the sanctions makes things worse, blame me. I’ll live with it, provided I get credit for the benefits.
    *As an aside, Trump’s reversal of Obama’s loosening of travel restrictions was awful. More than a few Cubans expected, reasonably, a tourism boom, and spent money to open small restaurants, or fix up a room to rent to tourists. Even buying some plates, silverware, and pots and pans are a huge outlay for Cubans. To see it go to waste because of Trump’s pointless move is quite sad.

  559. “What sets the Trump era apart is the rank incompetence of the people looking to cash in on [self-serving] opportunities,” write Lachlan Markay and Asawin Suebsaeng in their new book, Sinking in the Swamp: How Trump’s Minions and Misfits Poisoned Washington. “That’s great for us reporters. But it doesn’t inspire confidence in the administrative abilities of our present leaders that Trumpworld can’t even seem to do corruption right.”
    Has Trump Drained the Swamp or Stocked It With His Own Fish?: Sinking in the Swamp authors Lachlan Markay and Asawin Suebsaeng are documenting all the president’s grifters for The Daily Beast.

  560. “What sets the Trump era apart is the rank incompetence of the people looking to cash in on [self-serving] opportunities,” write Lachlan Markay and Asawin Suebsaeng in their new book, Sinking in the Swamp: How Trump’s Minions and Misfits Poisoned Washington. “That’s great for us reporters. But it doesn’t inspire confidence in the administrative abilities of our present leaders that Trumpworld can’t even seem to do corruption right.”
    Has Trump Drained the Swamp or Stocked It With His Own Fish?: Sinking in the Swamp authors Lachlan Markay and Asawin Suebsaeng are documenting all the president’s grifters for The Daily Beast.

  561. “ Standing idly by and tut-tutting in the name of holding the high moral while crimes against humanity are a routine part of some other country’s program isn’t even remotely moral in my book. ”
    We’ve had a few generations after WW 2 of invoking Munich over and over again. It has led to Vietnam and Iraq and support for countless murderous thugs and massacres committed by our side. The only positive result is South Korea, after a war where gigantic war crimes were committed by all sides. And the happy ending came decades later, mainly due to South Koreans, not us, but sure, the war thirty years earlier made it possible. Not being sarcastic. Just trying to be fair.
    Preventing the Soviets from rolling over Western Europe, if that was likely , is also a big win, but not one that required mass killing or starvation.
    If you want to cut back on massive human rights violations, start with holding Americans accountable and then work one’s way outwards, but nobody in his or her right mind could look at our record and say that sanctions, proxy wars, bombings, or ground invasions are a wonderful success story. Unless the rubric for success is something quite different, which in practice I think is the case. People make careers out of advocating for interventions, sometimes to fix the results of earlier interventions. And there is some money to be made in weapons manufacturing. I could also invoke the usual lefty imperialist arguments, which I suspect are valid, but on the individual level I think there is a pundit default setting that says “ We are the good guys and always have the right to use violence. The only issue is whether it will work out for us.” The idea that we might actually be the bad guys or one of the bad guys just doesn’t make it into the mainstream conversation.

  562. “ Standing idly by and tut-tutting in the name of holding the high moral while crimes against humanity are a routine part of some other country’s program isn’t even remotely moral in my book. ”
    We’ve had a few generations after WW 2 of invoking Munich over and over again. It has led to Vietnam and Iraq and support for countless murderous thugs and massacres committed by our side. The only positive result is South Korea, after a war where gigantic war crimes were committed by all sides. And the happy ending came decades later, mainly due to South Koreans, not us, but sure, the war thirty years earlier made it possible. Not being sarcastic. Just trying to be fair.
    Preventing the Soviets from rolling over Western Europe, if that was likely , is also a big win, but not one that required mass killing or starvation.
    If you want to cut back on massive human rights violations, start with holding Americans accountable and then work one’s way outwards, but nobody in his or her right mind could look at our record and say that sanctions, proxy wars, bombings, or ground invasions are a wonderful success story. Unless the rubric for success is something quite different, which in practice I think is the case. People make careers out of advocating for interventions, sometimes to fix the results of earlier interventions. And there is some money to be made in weapons manufacturing. I could also invoke the usual lefty imperialist arguments, which I suspect are valid, but on the individual level I think there is a pundit default setting that says “ We are the good guys and always have the right to use violence. The only issue is whether it will work out for us.” The idea that we might actually be the bad guys or one of the bad guys just doesn’t make it into the mainstream conversation.

  563. Talking about the USPS well I can’t recall any issues with them myself (I’ve lived in a few states but not TX). I don’t think you can switch to a private model for post and get anywhere near the same level of coverage. It might not bother you in one of the bigger towns or cities but the smaller settlements will see reduced service. Admittedly it’s not the postal service but in NZ we’re seeing privately run banks pulling out of many of the smaller towns because it’s just not economical to maintain a branch there.
    And out of curiosity I do wonder what impact the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 had on the quality of postal service? As I understand it this Act created some severe financial issues for the USPS.

  564. Talking about the USPS well I can’t recall any issues with them myself (I’ve lived in a few states but not TX). I don’t think you can switch to a private model for post and get anywhere near the same level of coverage. It might not bother you in one of the bigger towns or cities but the smaller settlements will see reduced service. Admittedly it’s not the postal service but in NZ we’re seeing privately run banks pulling out of many of the smaller towns because it’s just not economical to maintain a branch there.
    And out of curiosity I do wonder what impact the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 had on the quality of postal service? As I understand it this Act created some severe financial issues for the USPS.

  565. Why? First, the people, ordinary Cubans, suffer.* They are poorer, less healthy, generally less well off than they would be without the sanctions.
    I’ve never understood this argument, but it could be that I’m missing something. Aren’t we the only country that doesn’t trade with and therefor embargoes Cuba?
    Seems to me that there are plenty of trade alternatives for Cuba other than the US. What makes Cuba poor is that it is a socialist dictatorship. Other than over-rated cigars, it has nothing to offer as a trading partner and since no one is motivated to be creative and productive, nothing gets created and nothing gets produced. It’s kind of a next door example of why BS is a total loser. If there were a real private sector and real private property, foreign dollars would flow in. It would be a great destination for all kinds of things, but that isn’t going to happen because it is run by socialist ideologues. As a practical matter, it was a shitty place to live back when the Soviets were subsidizing it and it is an even shittier place today.
    Unless we were going to just hand stuff over to Cuba, which would be handing it over to Castro and his team, which would mean they get to pick the winners and the losers, I don’t see how the US plays any role in Cuba’s shitty situation. To me, it’s a self-inflicted wound.

  566. Why? First, the people, ordinary Cubans, suffer.* They are poorer, less healthy, generally less well off than they would be without the sanctions.
    I’ve never understood this argument, but it could be that I’m missing something. Aren’t we the only country that doesn’t trade with and therefor embargoes Cuba?
    Seems to me that there are plenty of trade alternatives for Cuba other than the US. What makes Cuba poor is that it is a socialist dictatorship. Other than over-rated cigars, it has nothing to offer as a trading partner and since no one is motivated to be creative and productive, nothing gets created and nothing gets produced. It’s kind of a next door example of why BS is a total loser. If there were a real private sector and real private property, foreign dollars would flow in. It would be a great destination for all kinds of things, but that isn’t going to happen because it is run by socialist ideologues. As a practical matter, it was a shitty place to live back when the Soviets were subsidizing it and it is an even shittier place today.
    Unless we were going to just hand stuff over to Cuba, which would be handing it over to Castro and his team, which would mean they get to pick the winners and the losers, I don’t see how the US plays any role in Cuba’s shitty situation. To me, it’s a self-inflicted wound.

  567. It has led to Vietnam and Iraq and support for countless murderous thugs and massacres committed by our side.
    The Cold War was in aid of containing communism. Our murderous thugs are pikers compared to the other side. It wasn’t pretty and no one has a crystal ball. Here’s a fact: all of Europe is free today. South Korea is free today. That’s a result of the Cold War. Eastern Europe was occupied by the Soviet Union and twice sent in tanks to suppress a popular uprising. We have nothing even remotely comparable in our post WWII history.
    The Soviets raised hell all over the world and we reacted. That was the over-arching theme of the Cold War. Sure, both sides had their proxies and both sides, the Soviets far more than us, crossed lines. Those who came of age during the Vietnam War have, IMO, a very skewed view of history. WWII, the Korean War and the Gulf War and Afghanistan all proceeded from surprise attacks. If you buy into the Gulf of Ton-kin business–an open question that I have not studied in depth–even the Vietnam war was precipitate by an adverse first strike. If you look at former US client states and former Soviet client states, the freedom/democracy outcomes fall on our side and the lingering and failing dictatorships land on the Soviet side.
    The unanswerable question is whether and how much things would or could have been worse without the US acting as it did in the face of external Soviet direct and indirect aggression.

  568. It has led to Vietnam and Iraq and support for countless murderous thugs and massacres committed by our side.
    The Cold War was in aid of containing communism. Our murderous thugs are pikers compared to the other side. It wasn’t pretty and no one has a crystal ball. Here’s a fact: all of Europe is free today. South Korea is free today. That’s a result of the Cold War. Eastern Europe was occupied by the Soviet Union and twice sent in tanks to suppress a popular uprising. We have nothing even remotely comparable in our post WWII history.
    The Soviets raised hell all over the world and we reacted. That was the over-arching theme of the Cold War. Sure, both sides had their proxies and both sides, the Soviets far more than us, crossed lines. Those who came of age during the Vietnam War have, IMO, a very skewed view of history. WWII, the Korean War and the Gulf War and Afghanistan all proceeded from surprise attacks. If you buy into the Gulf of Ton-kin business–an open question that I have not studied in depth–even the Vietnam war was precipitate by an adverse first strike. If you look at former US client states and former Soviet client states, the freedom/democracy outcomes fall on our side and the lingering and failing dictatorships land on the Soviet side.
    The unanswerable question is whether and how much things would or could have been worse without the US acting as it did in the face of external Soviet direct and indirect aggression.

  569. Talking about the USPS well I can’t recall any issues with them myself (I’ve lived in a few states but not TX). I don’t think you can switch to a private model for post and get anywhere near the same level of coverage.
    I agree with this. I use the USPS as an example of why we cannot trust gov’t on much larger projects when it struggles with what should be fairly and manageably within its wheelhouse. It’s a proper governmental function, just not one that is particularly well executed.

  570. Talking about the USPS well I can’t recall any issues with them myself (I’ve lived in a few states but not TX). I don’t think you can switch to a private model for post and get anywhere near the same level of coverage.
    I agree with this. I use the USPS as an example of why we cannot trust gov’t on much larger projects when it struggles with what should be fairly and manageably within its wheelhouse. It’s a proper governmental function, just not one that is particularly well executed.

  571. I have no issue with lefty heads exploding today when there was near-universal silence way-back-when. Put differently: A fair subset of DT’s corruption is Clinton times X. Many of DT’s loudest critics today were either silent or complicit back in the day. The near-flip side is patently true as well: the Repubs’ high moral dudgeon back then is an even grosser form of hypocrisy now. But the left needs to own Clinton. I’m not letting either side off .
    I’m not sure who you’re talking about here, McKinney, but you weren’t acquainted with us, were you, when Marc Rich was pardoned? So you don’t really know whether we were critical or not at the time. As to Democrats at the time, prominent Democrats criticized the pardon, including Jimmy Carter. Many of Clinton’s prominent staff, including John Podesta, testified [yes, those were the days when staff would testify] in Congress in a manner critical of the pardon. The New York Times editorial board (often accused by Republicans of being biased towards Democrats) criticized it. So if you were deafened, it wasn’t by silence.
    And yet, there were at least some colorable reasons for the pardon, and some mitigating factors, such as the fact that Rich was required to agree not to defend against civil actions if he returned to the US, and the fact that some leading tax law professors assessed Rich’s tax behavior as reasonable. Clinton at least attempted to defend his action on a basis other than the idea that he was “the nation’s chief law enforcement officer” (Trump’s rationale), including the fact that requests for the pardon were made by Israeli intelligence officials, and that Republican lawyers (Libby) had argued for the pardon.
    My take? I don’t think that Rich should have been pardoned without scrupulous adherence to the procedures that were in place at the time for presidential pardons. But I don’t think the pardon was the same degree of wrong as any of Trump’s pardons.
    The extent to which you grasp at straws to present false equivalencies is amazing.
    All that said, I respect your willingness to support Trump’s impeachment.

  572. I have no issue with lefty heads exploding today when there was near-universal silence way-back-when. Put differently: A fair subset of DT’s corruption is Clinton times X. Many of DT’s loudest critics today were either silent or complicit back in the day. The near-flip side is patently true as well: the Repubs’ high moral dudgeon back then is an even grosser form of hypocrisy now. But the left needs to own Clinton. I’m not letting either side off .
    I’m not sure who you’re talking about here, McKinney, but you weren’t acquainted with us, were you, when Marc Rich was pardoned? So you don’t really know whether we were critical or not at the time. As to Democrats at the time, prominent Democrats criticized the pardon, including Jimmy Carter. Many of Clinton’s prominent staff, including John Podesta, testified [yes, those were the days when staff would testify] in Congress in a manner critical of the pardon. The New York Times editorial board (often accused by Republicans of being biased towards Democrats) criticized it. So if you were deafened, it wasn’t by silence.
    And yet, there were at least some colorable reasons for the pardon, and some mitigating factors, such as the fact that Rich was required to agree not to defend against civil actions if he returned to the US, and the fact that some leading tax law professors assessed Rich’s tax behavior as reasonable. Clinton at least attempted to defend his action on a basis other than the idea that he was “the nation’s chief law enforcement officer” (Trump’s rationale), including the fact that requests for the pardon were made by Israeli intelligence officials, and that Republican lawyers (Libby) had argued for the pardon.
    My take? I don’t think that Rich should have been pardoned without scrupulous adherence to the procedures that were in place at the time for presidential pardons. But I don’t think the pardon was the same degree of wrong as any of Trump’s pardons.
    The extent to which you grasp at straws to present false equivalencies is amazing.
    All that said, I respect your willingness to support Trump’s impeachment.

  575. If you want to cut back on massive human rights violations, start with holding Americans accountable and then work one’s way outwards
    Allow me to add one caveat. Yes, we need to hold accountable those who personally committed violations. But we must not overlook those who made the decisions behind them. I’m thinking about people like John Yoo.
    (For those who don’t know, Yoo wrote the memo for the Justice Department essentially claiming that torture was legal. And then someone pointed out to him that he would have to be careful about travelling internationally henceforth — because he could get arrested and hauled before the International Court of Justice for war crimes. The shocked look on his face was priceless.)

  576. If you want to cut back on massive human rights violations, start with holding Americans accountable and then work one’s way outwards
    Allow me to add one caveat. Yes, we need to hold accountable those who personally committed violations. But we must not overlook those who made the decisions behind them. I’m thinking about people like John Yoo.
    (For those who don’t know, Yoo wrote the memo for the Justice Department essentially claiming that torture was legal. And then someone pointed out to him that he would have to be careful about travelling internationally henceforth — because he could get arrested and hauled before the International Court of Justice for war crimes. The shocked look on his face was priceless.)

  577. My experience with the USPS is superlative. I very rarely (a few times) in my long lifetime have had anything go missing, and I’ve had all manner of things delivered in good condition.
    During the time when I was collecting and accounting for checks that arrived at a business, bank and accountant screw-ups were way more frequent, either when the online bill-pay function misfired, or when the accounting department made an error. Human beings make mistakes, not only in government but in the private sector.

  578. My experience with the USPS is superlative. I very rarely (a few times) in my long lifetime have had anything go missing, and I’ve had all manner of things delivered in good condition.
    During the time when I was collecting and accounting for checks that arrived at a business, bank and accountant screw-ups were way more frequent, either when the online bill-pay function misfired, or when the accounting department made an error. Human beings make mistakes, not only in government but in the private sector.

  579. I’ve never understood this argument, but it could be that I’m missing something. Aren’t we the only country that doesn’t trade with and therefor embargoes Cuba?
    Seems to me that there are plenty of trade alternatives for Cuba other than the US.
    Yes, there are alternatives. But the US is close by, and would overwhelmingly be the biggest source of tourists, were they permitted to go. Possibly several times the size of all the rest of the tourist sources combined.

  580. I’ve never understood this argument, but it could be that I’m missing something. Aren’t we the only country that doesn’t trade with and therefor embargoes Cuba?
    Seems to me that there are plenty of trade alternatives for Cuba other than the US.
    Yes, there are alternatives. But the US is close by, and would overwhelmingly be the biggest source of tourists, were they permitted to go. Possibly several times the size of all the rest of the tourist sources combined.

  581. “ Our murderous thugs are pikers compared to the other side. It wasn’t pretty and no one has a crystal ball. Here’s a fact: all of Europe is free today. South Korea is free today. That’s a result of the Cold War. Eastern Europe was occupied by the Soviet Union and twice sent in tanks to suppress a popular uprising. We have nothing even remotely comparable in our post WWII history.”
    Kudos for repeating the concessions I already made. I also pre- emptively agree that Mao was a monster, though Chiang was a pretty big monster who lost.
    But nobody these days thinks we should have fought to keep Mao from winning. If you look at the rest of the Cold War, I think you are missing mass slaughters committed by our side and simply assuming the other side was much worse. In some places, notably Central America, that simply wasn’t true. One could have opposed communism without supporting nun rapists, torturers and genocidal maniacs and lying about their record, which effectively gave them the green light to continue doing what they did.
    It wasn’t hindsight. People right there at the time said the US was supporting monsters. If you want to claim you are fighting a war for human rights, which in many cases was obvious bull anyway, one would have higher standards.
    Anyway, I am not going to refight the Cold War . Part of the problem is that the Cold War pattern of supporting thugs and lying about both their actions and our own has never stopped.

  582. “ Our murderous thugs are pikers compared to the other side. It wasn’t pretty and no one has a crystal ball. Here’s a fact: all of Europe is free today. South Korea is free today. That’s a result of the Cold War. Eastern Europe was occupied by the Soviet Union and twice sent in tanks to suppress a popular uprising. We have nothing even remotely comparable in our post WWII history.”
    Kudos for repeating the concessions I already made. I also pre- emptively agree that Mao was a monster, though Chiang was a pretty big monster who lost.
    But nobody these days thinks we should have fought to keep Mao from winning. If you look at the rest of the Cold War, I think you are missing mass slaughters committed by our side and simply assuming the other side was much worse. In some places, notably Central America, that simply wasn’t true. One could have opposed communism without supporting nun rapists, torturers and genocidal maniacs and lying about their record, which effectively gave them the green light to continue doing what they did.
    It wasn’t hindsight. People right there at the time said the US was supporting monsters. If you want to claim you are fighting a war for human rights, which in many cases was obvious bull anyway, one would have higher standards.
    Anyway, I am not going to refight the Cold War . Part of the problem is that the Cold War pattern of supporting thugs and lying about both their actions and our own has never stopped.

  583. France, Germany, heck, even the UK is better.
    And how are any of these viable alternatives to our bottom quintile? The hard fact is, they have no place to go, and for many of them who are recent immigrants, their position here is hugely superior to that from which they fled.
    France, Germany and even the UK are not opening their borders to Mexican and Central American immigrants nor are they looking for the least successful in the US to augment their populations.
    That’s what I meant by having a viable alternative.

  584. France, Germany, heck, even the UK is better.
    And how are any of these viable alternatives to our bottom quintile? The hard fact is, they have no place to go, and for many of them who are recent immigrants, their position here is hugely superior to that from which they fled.
    France, Germany and even the UK are not opening their borders to Mexican and Central American immigrants nor are they looking for the least successful in the US to augment their populations.
    That’s what I meant by having a viable alternative.

  585. My experience with the USPS is superlative.
    Ours, too. Yet I have had many instances where UPS or FedEx drivers deliver to the wrong address or simply don’t get the package there in the first place. Like common carriers, they are also quite willing to just drop stuff off at the wrong address just because some dumb ass on the loading dock was stupid enough to sign for it.

  586. My experience with the USPS is superlative.
    Ours, too. Yet I have had many instances where UPS or FedEx drivers deliver to the wrong address or simply don’t get the package there in the first place. Like common carriers, they are also quite willing to just drop stuff off at the wrong address just because some dumb ass on the loading dock was stupid enough to sign for it.

  587. Sapient,
    I’m not sure who you’re talking about here, McKinney, but you weren’t acquainted with us, were you, when Marc Rich was pardoned?
    McKinney doesn’t know jack diddle about Democrats, and is simply parading his ignorance gussied up as some baseless rhetorical assertion. There were a lot of us pretty well hacked off about the Rich pardon, and in fact that action by Clinton as he was going out the door was widely condemned.
    I know. I was one of the folks pissed as hell.
    PS: Thanks for the added background. I did not know that stuff about the pardon.

  588. Sapient,
    I’m not sure who you’re talking about here, McKinney, but you weren’t acquainted with us, were you, when Marc Rich was pardoned?
    McKinney doesn’t know jack diddle about Democrats, and is simply parading his ignorance gussied up as some baseless rhetorical assertion. There were a lot of us pretty well hacked off about the Rich pardon, and in fact that action by Clinton as he was going out the door was widely condemned.
    I know. I was one of the folks pissed as hell.
    PS: Thanks for the added background. I did not know that stuff about the pardon.

  591. I find “viable” an interesting choice of adjective given the subject.
    US: 5% of the world pop with 30% of its wealth. And 1% of that owns 50% of that. Or whatever the splits are after Wall St closes on the price of Amazon today.
    Shining city on a hill. Universal healthcare is a heavy lift. It should be.
    Who are we? Who do we want to be? Are those two things getting closer or farther apart?
    I don’t know what’s politically possible, but that’s where I’m going with my primary vote.
    I’ll spare y’all the trouble and call myself naive.
    And I’ll vote Bloomberg if I have to, but I draw the line at calling that vote “Blue”.

  592. I find “viable” an interesting choice of adjective given the subject.
    US: 5% of the world pop with 30% of its wealth. And 1% of that owns 50% of that. Or whatever the splits are after Wall St closes on the price of Amazon today.
    Shining city on a hill. Universal healthcare is a heavy lift. It should be.
    Who are we? Who do we want to be? Are those two things getting closer or farther apart?
    I don’t know what’s politically possible, but that’s where I’m going with my primary vote.
    I’ll spare y’all the trouble and call myself naive.
    And I’ll vote Bloomberg if I have to, but I draw the line at calling that vote “Blue”.

  593. Yes, there are alternatives. But the US is close by
    That’s just a start. The embargo pretty much threw Castro into Russia’s arms. All they had under Batista was gambling, hookers, sugar, and cigars. By ensuring no Americans could trade with Cuba, we effectively ended gambling and prostitution in Cuba, and there hasn’t been a bull market in sugar since the Triangle Trade.
    Absent the embargo, we would have been by far Cuba’s biggest trading partner, and it closed off any possibility of ensnaring that country in the binding threads of trade and mutual commerce (black market cigars excepted). That policy has been an utter and embarrassing failure by any measure. The only thing keeping it in place is political pressure from the exile community and wingnut nationalism.

  594. Yes, there are alternatives. But the US is close by
    That’s just a start. The embargo pretty much threw Castro into Russia’s arms. All they had under Batista was gambling, hookers, sugar, and cigars. By ensuring no Americans could trade with Cuba, we effectively ended gambling and prostitution in Cuba, and there hasn’t been a bull market in sugar since the Triangle Trade.
    Absent the embargo, we would have been by far Cuba’s biggest trading partner, and it closed off any possibility of ensnaring that country in the binding threads of trade and mutual commerce (black market cigars excepted). That policy has been an utter and embarrassing failure by any measure. The only thing keeping it in place is political pressure from the exile community and wingnut nationalism.

  595. …when it struggles with what should be fairly and manageably within its wheelhouse.
    Yet private firms routinely go bust. They have been known to waste resources on a massive scale. They are riddled with corruption and self-dealing.
    Just about any human enterprise in not immune from this.
    So, what’s your point?

  596. …when it struggles with what should be fairly and manageably within its wheelhouse.
    Yet private firms routinely go bust. They have been known to waste resources on a massive scale. They are riddled with corruption and self-dealing.
    Just about any human enterprise in not immune from this.
    So, what’s your point?

  597. McK,
    I’ve never understood this argument, but it could be that I’m missing something. Aren’t we the only country that doesn’t trade with and therefor embargoes Cuba?
    Seems to me that there are plenty of trade alternatives for Cuba other than the US.
    Say you own a store in a fairly big city. Across town there are lots of people who don’t mind doing business with you, but it’s a bit inconvenient, because of the distance, travel costs, freight costs, and so on.
    OTOH, near you, walking distance maybe, is a very large neighborhood with lots of people just like the ones across town, who also would be glad to do business with you. But for some reason there’s a law that stops them. Does that law hurt your business?
    What makes Cuba poor is that it is a socialist dictatorship. Other than over-rated cigars, it has nothing to offer as a trading partner and since no one is motivated to be creative and productive, nothing gets created and nothing gets produced.
    I make no excuse for the Cuban economic system. It is primarily responsible for the state of the economy. It is loosening, a bit, but is still bad.
    Of course, while don’t seek an excuse, the embargo does provide one to those do, and Trump’s policy reversal, as I described, did hurt at least some entrepreneurial stirrings, which we presumably would like to see more of.
    On one trip I talked to a young guy running a fruit juice stand on the sidewalk. He told me he had scraped together enough from friends and family to buy the equipment and set up, and expected to do well from tourists. How do you think that turned out?
    What good have the sanctions accomplished, sixty or so years on?

  598. McK,
    I’ve never understood this argument, but it could be that I’m missing something. Aren’t we the only country that doesn’t trade with and therefor embargoes Cuba?
    Seems to me that there are plenty of trade alternatives for Cuba other than the US.
    Say you own a store in a fairly big city. Across town there are lots of people who don’t mind doing business with you, but it’s a bit inconvenient, because of the distance, travel costs, freight costs, and so on.
    OTOH, near you, walking distance maybe, is a very large neighborhood with lots of people just like the ones across town, who also would be glad to do business with you. But for some reason there’s a law that stops them. Does that law hurt your business?
    What makes Cuba poor is that it is a socialist dictatorship. Other than over-rated cigars, it has nothing to offer as a trading partner and since no one is motivated to be creative and productive, nothing gets created and nothing gets produced.
    I make no excuse for the Cuban economic system. It is primarily responsible for the state of the economy. It is loosening, a bit, but is still bad.
    Of course, while don’t seek an excuse, the embargo does provide one to those do, and Trump’s policy reversal, as I described, did hurt at least some entrepreneurial stirrings, which we presumably would like to see more of.
    On one trip I talked to a young guy running a fruit juice stand on the sidewalk. He told me he had scraped together enough from friends and family to buy the equipment and set up, and expected to do well from tourists. How do you think that turned out?
    What good have the sanctions accomplished, sixty or so years on?

  599. That policy has been an utter and embarrassing failure by any measure. The only thing keeping it in place is political pressure from the exile community and wingnut nationalism.
    If you assume that the goal of the policy was to overthrow Castro, and/or communism, then yes. But if you look at it as a routine bit of political pandering (and less expensive than the average farm bill), then it’s been relatively successful. It’s all about what the real goal is.

  600. That policy has been an utter and embarrassing failure by any measure. The only thing keeping it in place is political pressure from the exile community and wingnut nationalism.
    If you assume that the goal of the policy was to overthrow Castro, and/or communism, then yes. But if you look at it as a routine bit of political pandering (and less expensive than the average farm bill), then it’s been relatively successful. It’s all about what the real goal is.

  601. I’m not sure who you’re talking about here, McKinney, but you weren’t acquainted with us, were you, when Marc Rich was pardoned? So you don’t really know whether we were critical or not at the time. As to Democrats at the time, prominent Democrats criticized the pardon, including Jimmy Carter. Many of Clinton’s prominent staff, including John Podesta, testified [yes, those were the days when staff would testify] in Congress in a manner critical of the pardon. The New York Times editorial board (often accused by Republicans of being biased towards Democrats) criticized it. So if you were deafened, it wasn’t by silence
    This seems pretty definitive to me (I wasn’t with ObWi yet either, but I’m betting there was a lot of criticism here), and we have bobbyp and my personal experience too. So, McKinney, your equivalence doesn’t hold up. Nobody claims things in Washington were perfect before, but Trump is sui generis and has trashed norms that nobody even thought to question in the past, they were so taken for granted.

  602. I’m not sure who you’re talking about here, McKinney, but you weren’t acquainted with us, were you, when Marc Rich was pardoned? So you don’t really know whether we were critical or not at the time. As to Democrats at the time, prominent Democrats criticized the pardon, including Jimmy Carter. Many of Clinton’s prominent staff, including John Podesta, testified [yes, those were the days when staff would testify] in Congress in a manner critical of the pardon. The New York Times editorial board (often accused by Republicans of being biased towards Democrats) criticized it. So if you were deafened, it wasn’t by silence
    This seems pretty definitive to me (I wasn’t with ObWi yet either, but I’m betting there was a lot of criticism here), and we have bobbyp and my personal experience too. So, McKinney, your equivalence doesn’t hold up. Nobody claims things in Washington were perfect before, but Trump is sui generis and has trashed norms that nobody even thought to question in the past, they were so taken for granted.

  603. “What good have the sanctions accomplished, sixty or so years on?”
    Killed Fidel Castro. The exploding cigars must have been sent by USPS.

  604. “What good have the sanctions accomplished, sixty or so years on?”
    Killed Fidel Castro. The exploding cigars must have been sent by USPS.

  605. Let me answer a different way.
    Cuba is big, about 800 miles east to west, roughly the distance from NYC to Chicago. We’re not talking St. Bart’s here. It’s 40,000 square miles, 300 times the size of the US Virgin Islands, about as big as Ohio or Kentucky.
    How much money do US tourists spend in the Caribbean islands? How big a chunk of that would Cuba draw away, and how much would that sum increase if Cuba were accessible? Remember, it has, besides beaches, interesting history, potentially lovely architecture, terrific music and performing arts.
    I wouldn’t want to own a hotel in the Caribbean if Cuba opened up to US tourists.

  606. Let me answer a different way.
    Cuba is big, about 800 miles east to west, roughly the distance from NYC to Chicago. We’re not talking St. Bart’s here. It’s 40,000 square miles, 300 times the size of the US Virgin Islands, about as big as Ohio or Kentucky.
    How much money do US tourists spend in the Caribbean islands? How big a chunk of that would Cuba draw away, and how much would that sum increase if Cuba were accessible? Remember, it has, besides beaches, interesting history, potentially lovely architecture, terrific music and performing arts.
    I wouldn’t want to own a hotel in the Caribbean if Cuba opened up to US tourists.

  607. France, Germany and even the UK are not opening their borders to Mexican and Central American immigrants
    France, Germany, and the UK all have quite significant immigrant populations. They’re not from Mexico or Central America, granted.
    This isn’t a contest, and every country and context and history is different. Some things are better here than they are in other places, some things are better in other places then they are here.
    There isn’t, and doesn’t have to be, a “number 1”.
    We should figure out what is going to work best, for us, and do that. What we do now, especially as regards health care but also as regards housing, transportation, and a number of other things, is not optimal.
    We have better choices available to us.

  608. France, Germany and even the UK are not opening their borders to Mexican and Central American immigrants
    France, Germany, and the UK all have quite significant immigrant populations. They’re not from Mexico or Central America, granted.
    This isn’t a contest, and every country and context and history is different. Some things are better here than they are in other places, some things are better in other places then they are here.
    There isn’t, and doesn’t have to be, a “number 1”.
    We should figure out what is going to work best, for us, and do that. What we do now, especially as regards health care but also as regards housing, transportation, and a number of other things, is not optimal.
    We have better choices available to us.

  609. If you think tu quoque is an effective and substantive rejoinder to taking objectively inconsistent views, have at it.
    if you think tu quoque is an effective way out of dealing with taking responsibility for the fucked up situation your shitty party has brought us to, then you shouldn’t be talking about politics in public.

  610. If you think tu quoque is an effective and substantive rejoinder to taking objectively inconsistent views, have at it.
    if you think tu quoque is an effective way out of dealing with taking responsibility for the fucked up situation your shitty party has brought us to, then you shouldn’t be talking about politics in public.

  611. I wouldn’t want to own a hotel in the Caribbean if Cuba opened up to US tourists.
    What other country has the intricate set of social relationships that can keep a 1953 Chevy on the street and in use for 60 years?
    If you want to unleash this awesome power, end sanctions now.

  612. I wouldn’t want to own a hotel in the Caribbean if Cuba opened up to US tourists.
    What other country has the intricate set of social relationships that can keep a 1953 Chevy on the street and in use for 60 years?
    If you want to unleash this awesome power, end sanctions now.

  613. A fair subset of DT’s corruption is Clinton times X.
    That is some fancy barbering, right there.
    A long time ago, I had a conversation with a local conservative notable about the USA Patriot Act. She wanted to make sure I was not just some lefty yahoo, so to take my temperature she asked, “What do you think of Bill Clinton?”
    I said, “Gifted politician, personally kind of a corrupt guy, which is a shame because a lot of what he could have done was wasted”.
    I passed her “not full of shit” test.
    Neither of the Clintons are my favorite people. The Mark Rich pardon was arguably an abuse of office, however one that (a) was within the scope of presidential power and (b) happened on the way out the door, so not much opportunity to do anything about it.
    And all of that said, Bill Clinton on his very worst day is an innocent schoolboy compared to what we have now.
    “Subset” and the variable “X” are carrying one hell of a lot of water here.
    Trump is a fucking crook. His dad was, his kids are, his associates are, he is. There is nothing whatsoever straight or whole in the man. As far as I can tell, he is incapable of acting other than from vanity, cupidity, and malice.
    There a long conversations we can have, and have had, and probably still will have, about the Clintons. There are worthwhile points to make in criticism of them.
    Trump is a different kettle of fish.

  614. A fair subset of DT’s corruption is Clinton times X.
    That is some fancy barbering, right there.
    A long time ago, I had a conversation with a local conservative notable about the USA Patriot Act. She wanted to make sure I was not just some lefty yahoo, so to take my temperature she asked, “What do you think of Bill Clinton?”
    I said, “Gifted politician, personally kind of a corrupt guy, which is a shame because a lot of what he could have done was wasted”.
    I passed her “not full of shit” test.
    Neither of the Clintons are my favorite people. The Mark Rich pardon was arguably an abuse of office, however one that (a) was within the scope of presidential power and (b) happened on the way out the door, so not much opportunity to do anything about it.
    And all of that said, Bill Clinton on his very worst day is an innocent schoolboy compared to what we have now.
    “Subset” and the variable “X” are carrying one hell of a lot of water here.
    Trump is a fucking crook. His dad was, his kids are, his associates are, he is. There is nothing whatsoever straight or whole in the man. As far as I can tell, he is incapable of acting other than from vanity, cupidity, and malice.
    There a long conversations we can have, and have had, and probably still will have, about the Clintons. There are worthwhile points to make in criticism of them.
    Trump is a different kettle of fish.

  615. An upside to Trump is that he hasn’t been a politician for decades. So he doesn’t know where all the leavers are and how far they can be shifted.

  616. An upside to Trump is that he hasn’t been a politician for decades. So he doesn’t know where all the leavers are and how far they can be shifted.

  617. What other country has the intricate set of social relationships that can keep a 1953 Chevy on the street and in use for 60 years?
    If you want to unleash this awesome power, end sanctions now.
    Actually, it is pretty amazing. Lots of the engines have been replaced, but not all. Some car owners will tell you, FWIW, that the engines have a million miles on them.

  618. What other country has the intricate set of social relationships that can keep a 1953 Chevy on the street and in use for 60 years?
    If you want to unleash this awesome power, end sanctions now.
    Actually, it is pretty amazing. Lots of the engines have been replaced, but not all. Some car owners will tell you, FWIW, that the engines have a million miles on them.

  619. So he doesn’t know where all the leavers are and how far they can be shifted.
    I’d opine he is picking up on how those levers work pretty quickly, aided by a compliant Senate, and an increasingly compliant judiciary.
    There are no upsides with Donny Trump. Not a f*cking one.

  620. So he doesn’t know where all the leavers are and how far they can be shifted.
    I’d opine he is picking up on how those levers work pretty quickly, aided by a compliant Senate, and an increasingly compliant judiciary.
    There are no upsides with Donny Trump. Not a f*cking one.

  625. Looked more like Bloomberg went downhill through the debate. Or, as one Post headline put it, Bloomberg’s best moment was 5 minutes before the debate started.

  626. Looked more like Bloomberg went downhill through the debate. Or, as one Post headline put it, Bloomberg’s best moment was 5 minutes before the debate started.

  627. Bloomberg should have been much better prepared on stop and frisk and #metoo. What, money doesn’t buy debate prep? But I thought his attack on Sanders’ economics was effective.
    Warren was good attacking Bloomberg on #metoo. I was thinking to myself that her virtue signaling should have rang more hollow given her cultural appropriations but it came off well. IMHO, if she didn’t come off as a scold it would play even better.

  628. Bloomberg should have been much better prepared on stop and frisk and #metoo. What, money doesn’t buy debate prep? But I thought his attack on Sanders’ economics was effective.
    Warren was good attacking Bloomberg on #metoo. I was thinking to myself that her virtue signaling should have rang more hollow given her cultural appropriations but it came off well. IMHO, if she didn’t come off as a scold it would play even better.

  629. Currently about 2.8 million people of Turkish origin living permanently in Germany (only counting immigrants and those whose both parents are immigrants from Turkey, so including mixed origin would add quite a lot to that).
    The vast majority came from the poorer parts of Turkey (Anatolia) as guest workers.
    The majority of problems we have with them are the direct result of anti-integration policies by our conservative parties (the organized xenophoboia has shifted a bit towards other groups these days since even most nazis would sorely miss the Turkish greengrocers).
    Our social safety net massively profits from them since they put much more into it than taking out and they keep the population from shrinking. We could not do without them (but we could very well do without meddling by the Turkish government which is also opposed to Turks integrating into German society too much).

  630. Currently about 2.8 million people of Turkish origin living permanently in Germany (only counting immigrants and those whose both parents are immigrants from Turkey, so including mixed origin would add quite a lot to that).
    The vast majority came from the poorer parts of Turkey (Anatolia) as guest workers.
    The majority of problems we have with them are the direct result of anti-integration policies by our conservative parties (the organized xenophoboia has shifted a bit towards other groups these days since even most nazis would sorely miss the Turkish greengrocers).
    Our social safety net massively profits from them since they put much more into it than taking out and they keep the population from shrinking. We could not do without them (but we could very well do without meddling by the Turkish government which is also opposed to Turks integrating into German society too much).

  631. WRS @ 10.22. Comparing Trump to Clinton on the corruption front (or any other front, with the possible exception of metoo) is completely absurd. Trump is sui generis in American presidential politics, an open sewer of corruption, vanity and malevolence who has exposed the current GOP for the hypocrites and frauds they are, and pretending otherwise is a fruitless effort to feel better (or less bad) about one’s general political allegiances.

  632. WRS @ 10.22. Comparing Trump to Clinton on the corruption front (or any other front, with the possible exception of metoo) is completely absurd. Trump is sui generis in American presidential politics, an open sewer of corruption, vanity and malevolence who has exposed the current GOP for the hypocrites and frauds they are, and pretending otherwise is a fruitless effort to feel better (or less bad) about one’s general political allegiances.

  633. There are no upsides with Donny Trump
    Sure there are.
    Tax cuts.
    Deregulation.
    Judges.
    Plus he makes liberals cry.
    Also, as a conservative friend opined, “He’s a businessman and he gets things done”. No fancy-pants politician deal-making with him, he just fucking does shit and lets lesser folk clean up the mess.
    If all of that sounds good to you, he’s your man.
    Among the things that Trump corrupts are his supporters.
    Currently about 2.8 million people of Turkish origin living permanently in Germany
    Germany also took in something like 600k Syrian refugees, if I’m not mistaken.

  634. There are no upsides with Donny Trump
    Sure there are.
    Tax cuts.
    Deregulation.
    Judges.
    Plus he makes liberals cry.
    Also, as a conservative friend opined, “He’s a businessman and he gets things done”. No fancy-pants politician deal-making with him, he just fucking does shit and lets lesser folk clean up the mess.
    If all of that sounds good to you, he’s your man.
    Among the things that Trump corrupts are his supporters.
    Currently about 2.8 million people of Turkish origin living permanently in Germany
    Germany also took in something like 600k Syrian refugees, if I’m not mistaken.

  635. WRS, too.
    One might add that Clinton did not set out to undermine the entire basis of US democracy.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/trump-regime/606682/
    …Authoritarian nations come in many different stripes, but they all share a fundamental characteristic: The people who live in them are not allowed to freely choose their own leaders. This is why Republican Senator Mitt Romney of Utah, in his speech announcing his vote to convict on the first article of impeachment, said that “corrupting an election to keep oneself in office is perhaps the most abusive and destructive violation of one’s oath of office that I can imagine.”
    Democracies are sustained through the formal process by which power is contested and exchanged. Once that process is corrupted, you have merely the trappings of democracy within an authoritarian regime. Such governments may retain elections and courts and legislatures, but those institutions have no power to enforce the rule of law. America is not there yet—but the acquittal vote was a fateful step in that direction.
    The process by which a democracy becomes an authoritarian regime is what social scientists call authoritarianization. The process does not need to be sudden and dramatic. Often, democratic mechanisms are eroded over a period of months or years, slowly degrading the ability of the public to choose its leaders or hold them to account.
    Legislators in functioning democracies need not agree on substantive policy matters—they might fight over environmental safeguards, for example, or tax rates, or immigration, or health care. But no matter the party or ideology they support, they must hold sacred the right of the people to choose their own leaders. The entire Senate Republican Conference has only one legislator willing to act on that principle….

  636. WRS, too.
    One might add that Clinton did not set out to undermine the entire basis of US democracy.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/trump-regime/606682/
    …Authoritarian nations come in many different stripes, but they all share a fundamental characteristic: The people who live in them are not allowed to freely choose their own leaders. This is why Republican Senator Mitt Romney of Utah, in his speech announcing his vote to convict on the first article of impeachment, said that “corrupting an election to keep oneself in office is perhaps the most abusive and destructive violation of one’s oath of office that I can imagine.”
    Democracies are sustained through the formal process by which power is contested and exchanged. Once that process is corrupted, you have merely the trappings of democracy within an authoritarian regime. Such governments may retain elections and courts and legislatures, but those institutions have no power to enforce the rule of law. America is not there yet—but the acquittal vote was a fateful step in that direction.
    The process by which a democracy becomes an authoritarian regime is what social scientists call authoritarianization. The process does not need to be sudden and dramatic. Often, democratic mechanisms are eroded over a period of months or years, slowly degrading the ability of the public to choose its leaders or hold them to account.
    Legislators in functioning democracies need not agree on substantive policy matters—they might fight over environmental safeguards, for example, or tax rates, or immigration, or health care. But no matter the party or ideology they support, they must hold sacred the right of the people to choose their own leaders. The entire Senate Republican Conference has only one legislator willing to act on that principle….

  637. Germany also took in something like 600k Syrian refugees, if I’m not mistaken.
    But with the intention to get rid of them at the first opportunity. While the country can easily shoulder the burden economically, the situation served as a catalyst for the rise of the AfD party which has the potential to become our equivalent of the French Front National or, worse, the Greek Golden Dawn. We can have some pride in being (possibly) the last European country to get such a party but now we have it and the RW outliers of our traditional conservative parties have begun to undermine the general consent that any collaboration with that movement is anathema (don’t these people ever learn?).
    I doubt that the Syrians will be allowed (or even wish) to become what the ‘German Turks’ have become, an essential part of modern Germany.

  638. Germany also took in something like 600k Syrian refugees, if I’m not mistaken.
    But with the intention to get rid of them at the first opportunity. While the country can easily shoulder the burden economically, the situation served as a catalyst for the rise of the AfD party which has the potential to become our equivalent of the French Front National or, worse, the Greek Golden Dawn. We can have some pride in being (possibly) the last European country to get such a party but now we have it and the RW outliers of our traditional conservative parties have begun to undermine the general consent that any collaboration with that movement is anathema (don’t these people ever learn?).
    I doubt that the Syrians will be allowed (or even wish) to become what the ‘German Turks’ have become, an essential part of modern Germany.

  639. I didn’t watch ( my wife did- I watched a show in weasels up until the rabbit was killed, then a part of show on cats and part of Dr Strangelove and the Pink Panther) but I gather that Bernie called for partial worker control of big companies and Bloomberg called this communism. I have the impression Warren is for something like this as well. Not sure.
    Part of the problem in America is how we conflate ideas to give ordinary people more rights in the giant corporations where they work with putting people in gulags or having them shot in Central Park. It makes it hard to have rational discussions.

  640. I didn’t watch ( my wife did- I watched a show in weasels up until the rabbit was killed, then a part of show on cats and part of Dr Strangelove and the Pink Panther) but I gather that Bernie called for partial worker control of big companies and Bloomberg called this communism. I have the impression Warren is for something like this as well. Not sure.
    Part of the problem in America is how we conflate ideas to give ordinary people more rights in the giant corporations where they work with putting people in gulags or having them shot in Central Park. It makes it hard to have rational discussions.

  641. There are no upsides with Donny Trump. Not a f*cking one.
    he’s continually exposing the GOP for the fraud it is. from the moral to the fiscal, from military to political, he’s showing us all how phony they are. how craven. how callow. how corrupt. how shallow. he’s showing us all how stupid they are.
    each day brings another example.
    each day i learn some new topic on which i can justifiably ignore the braying of “conservative” jackasses.

  642. There are no upsides with Donny Trump. Not a f*cking one.
    he’s continually exposing the GOP for the fraud it is. from the moral to the fiscal, from military to political, he’s showing us all how phony they are. how craven. how callow. how corrupt. how shallow. he’s showing us all how stupid they are.
    each day brings another example.
    each day i learn some new topic on which i can justifiably ignore the braying of “conservative” jackasses.

  643. Got home early, around 4, switching randomly between CNN & MSNBC while doing other things. Nothing about issues – entirely about who should attack who, or back off, or whatever political triangulation. Not that I expected anything else. I shouldn’t be as wrapped up in the horserace as I am, but I can’t get away from it.
    Bloomberg’s brand is info and preparedness. That wasn’t on display last night, and I’m kinda shocked by it. He very much looked like the guy who bought his way in. Warren was impressive, but I just don’t see enough traction there. And I say that as someone who would happily pull the lever for her. Mayor Pete looked petulant and somewhat out of his depth. Biden and Klobuchar disappeared.
    Sanders is going to be the nominee. He might be the second coming of McGovern, but he’s going to be the guy. I think he might get >30% in NV and may very well come out on top in SC. From there, Super Tuesday will make him a virtual lock, if the polls are anywhere close to accurate.
    —
    My understanding is that the number of refugees taken by Germany was around the million mark. In a year. I’ve heard there’s a lot of available space in Wyoming. Near Dick Cheney’s place. Just sayin’.

  644. Got home early, around 4, switching randomly between CNN & MSNBC while doing other things. Nothing about issues – entirely about who should attack who, or back off, or whatever political triangulation. Not that I expected anything else. I shouldn’t be as wrapped up in the horserace as I am, but I can’t get away from it.
    Bloomberg’s brand is info and preparedness. That wasn’t on display last night, and I’m kinda shocked by it. He very much looked like the guy who bought his way in. Warren was impressive, but I just don’t see enough traction there. And I say that as someone who would happily pull the lever for her. Mayor Pete looked petulant and somewhat out of his depth. Biden and Klobuchar disappeared.
    Sanders is going to be the nominee. He might be the second coming of McGovern, but he’s going to be the guy. I think he might get >30% in NV and may very well come out on top in SC. From there, Super Tuesday will make him a virtual lock, if the polls are anywhere close to accurate.
    —
    My understanding is that the number of refugees taken by Germany was around the million mark. In a year. I’ve heard there’s a lot of available space in Wyoming. Near Dick Cheney’s place. Just sayin’.

  645. This isn’t a contest, and every country and context and history is different. Some things are better here than they are in other places, some things are better in other places then they are here.
    There isn’t, and doesn’t have to be, a “number 1”.
    This. Thanks.

  646. This isn’t a contest, and every country and context and history is different. Some things are better here than they are in other places, some things are better in other places then they are here.
    There isn’t, and doesn’t have to be, a “number 1”.
    This. Thanks.

  647. Tax cuts.
    Deregulation.
    Judges.
    Plus he makes liberals cry.
    Are you sure you haven’t gotten the order reversed? OK, this may be the priority order for GOP donors. But for their base voters? The tax cuts don’t give them anything. The judges may do something for them in the culture wars, but the real upside is straight “whatever they are for I’m against partisanship.”

  648. Tax cuts.
    Deregulation.
    Judges.
    Plus he makes liberals cry.
    Are you sure you haven’t gotten the order reversed? OK, this may be the priority order for GOP donors. But for their base voters? The tax cuts don’t give them anything. The judges may do something for them in the culture wars, but the real upside is straight “whatever they are for I’m against partisanship.”

  651. “The judges may do something for them in the culture wars”
    From what I can see, the RWNJ contingent just luvvs bitching about ‘black-robed activist judges’, and will do so under the slightest pretext, even if said judges were appointed by GOPers.

  652. “The judges may do something for them in the culture wars”
    From what I can see, the RWNJ contingent just luvvs bitching about ‘black-robed activist judges’, and will do so under the slightest pretext, even if said judges were appointed by GOPers.

  653. Since this is at least nominally an open thread:
    I watched David Baddiel’s BBC documentary on holocaust denial last night. For US people who don’t know of him, he is a very funny, rather clever comedian. It was excellent, I thought, and he confronted full-on the argument that talking about and to deniers just gives them oxygen. But the bit I wanted to highlight here, in my normal anti-religious way, was the joke he tells at the beginning, which goes something like this:
    Sometime after the war, a holocaust survivor dies, and goes to heaven, and God says, “tell me a holocaust joke”. So the survivor does so, but God says “that isn’t funny!” to which the survivor replies “I guess you had to be there”.
    And Baddiel follows this up with the words, “And of course, he wasn’t.”
    Nothing more to be said (at least on the subject of the supposed omnipresence of the deity) in my opinion.

  654. Since this is at least nominally an open thread:
    I watched David Baddiel’s BBC documentary on holocaust denial last night. For US people who don’t know of him, he is a very funny, rather clever comedian. It was excellent, I thought, and he confronted full-on the argument that talking about and to deniers just gives them oxygen. But the bit I wanted to highlight here, in my normal anti-religious way, was the joke he tells at the beginning, which goes something like this:
    Sometime after the war, a holocaust survivor dies, and goes to heaven, and God says, “tell me a holocaust joke”. So the survivor does so, but God says “that isn’t funny!” to which the survivor replies “I guess you had to be there”.
    And Baddiel follows this up with the words, “And of course, he wasn’t.”
    Nothing more to be said (at least on the subject of the supposed omnipresence of the deity) in my opinion.

  655. I think it was in a novel by Iain M. Banks (“Dead Air”?) that had a scene were the protagonist had a live on-air TV debate with a holocaust denier. The protagonist waited until both were wired up with mics in their chairs, then used wire-cutters to cut himself loose, crossed the stage, and punched the holocaust denier HARD in the face….
    …then denied that he did it, in spite of witness, tapes, etc. “No, never happened. It’s all a lie, maybe mass delusion.”.
    Karmic justice.

  656. I think it was in a novel by Iain M. Banks (“Dead Air”?) that had a scene were the protagonist had a live on-air TV debate with a holocaust denier. The protagonist waited until both were wired up with mics in their chairs, then used wire-cutters to cut himself loose, crossed the stage, and punched the holocaust denier HARD in the face….
    …then denied that he did it, in spite of witness, tapes, etc. “No, never happened. It’s all a lie, maybe mass delusion.”.
    Karmic justice.

  657. @GFTNC
    I continue to be amazed by those who proclaim that “The Lord was watching over us”, ignoring completely the tragedy and destruction around them. The Lord truly has an intent gaze.
    Also, I second the request regarding Russell’s transition from fundamentalism to unitarian, should he choose to expound. And I completely understand and respect if he does not.

  658. @GFTNC
    I continue to be amazed by those who proclaim that “The Lord was watching over us”, ignoring completely the tragedy and destruction around them. The Lord truly has an intent gaze.
    Also, I second the request regarding Russell’s transition from fundamentalism to unitarian, should he choose to expound. And I completely understand and respect if he does not.

  659. Snarki, thank you for that excellent reminder that the only Iain M Banks books I have read were the Culture series. I must read more, that is indeed a a characteristically witty example of karmic justice.

  660. Snarki, thank you for that excellent reminder that the only Iain M Banks books I have read were the Culture series. I must read more, that is indeed a a characteristically witty example of karmic justice.

  661. Snarki: “No, never happened. It’s all a lie, maybe mass delusion.”
    Once upon a time, in Crete, an old-school Cretan patriarch was testifying in some trial over sheep-stealing or murder or elopement or something. The old man testified that the accused was the perpetrator because he heard him talking while committing the act. The judge ruled the old man’s testimony inadmissible because hearing was not the same as seeing. Indignant, the old man let out a rip-roaring fart as he left the stand. When the judge accused him of contempt of court, the old man gave the obvious reply and left the court amid cheers from the spectators.
    My 94-year-old uncle, a Cretan patriarch in his own way, swears it’s a true story. I’ve seen him tell it.
    –TP

  662. Snarki: “No, never happened. It’s all a lie, maybe mass delusion.”
    Once upon a time, in Crete, an old-school Cretan patriarch was testifying in some trial over sheep-stealing or murder or elopement or something. The old man testified that the accused was the perpetrator because he heard him talking while committing the act. The judge ruled the old man’s testimony inadmissible because hearing was not the same as seeing. Indignant, the old man let out a rip-roaring fart as he left the stand. When the judge accused him of contempt of court, the old man gave the obvious reply and left the court amid cheers from the spectators.
    My 94-year-old uncle, a Cretan patriarch in his own way, swears it’s a true story. I’ve seen him tell it.
    –TP

  663. I’ve seen him tell it.
    A masterly sentence, Tony P. I think we can all imagine the scene! I must say, I like the sound of your uncle.
    So glad you’re around again, hope all’s well with you and yours.

  664. I’ve seen him tell it.
    A masterly sentence, Tony P. I think we can all imagine the scene! I must say, I like the sound of your uncle.
    So glad you’re around again, hope all’s well with you and yours.

  665. fundamentalism to unitarian
    OK, FWIW…
    Really, the short form is “I grew up”. It’s hard to hold on to a black and white view of the world much beyond your early to middle 20’s. There’s more to it, of course, but that’s probably 90% of it.
    For a while I felt like my fundamentalist days were kind of a loss, later in life I began to see that that kind of rigidity was helpful, or at least functional in a way, to me, at that time in my life.
    Some young people join the military to inject a sense of structure into their lives, I became a fundamentalist.
    It was all a long time ago. 40, 45 years? I was so much older than, I’m younger than that now.
    I still have a lot of friends from those days. Almost all of them have moderated their early dogmatism. Many of them have forged really interesting paths through life and ended up in some interesting places. Most, but not all, of them still have a religious practice of some kind.
    I’m a Unitarian now because my wife and I stumbled into a church we like that happens to be Unitarian. My wife was invited to sing in the choir, she liked the minister, I went along to see what it was all about, we been there 10 years now. God moves in mysterious ways.
    The “no creed” part is fine with me because as far as I can tell creeds are just a way to try to put a mystery in a box. And then argue about whose box is better. UU’s have their own ways of being bizarre and annoying, but on the whole it’s mostly upside, so there I am.
    It’s not an uncommon story, in one form or other.

  666. fundamentalism to unitarian
    OK, FWIW…
    Really, the short form is “I grew up”. It’s hard to hold on to a black and white view of the world much beyond your early to middle 20’s. There’s more to it, of course, but that’s probably 90% of it.
    For a while I felt like my fundamentalist days were kind of a loss, later in life I began to see that that kind of rigidity was helpful, or at least functional in a way, to me, at that time in my life.
    Some young people join the military to inject a sense of structure into their lives, I became a fundamentalist.
    It was all a long time ago. 40, 45 years? I was so much older than, I’m younger than that now.
    I still have a lot of friends from those days. Almost all of them have moderated their early dogmatism. Many of them have forged really interesting paths through life and ended up in some interesting places. Most, but not all, of them still have a religious practice of some kind.
    I’m a Unitarian now because my wife and I stumbled into a church we like that happens to be Unitarian. My wife was invited to sing in the choir, she liked the minister, I went along to see what it was all about, we been there 10 years now. God moves in mysterious ways.
    The “no creed” part is fine with me because as far as I can tell creeds are just a way to try to put a mystery in a box. And then argue about whose box is better. UU’s have their own ways of being bizarre and annoying, but on the whole it’s mostly upside, so there I am.
    It’s not an uncommon story, in one form or other.

  667. A brief follow-up:
    If I have regrets about my time as one of the religious hard-core, it’s to do with the harsh and judgemental way that I manifested and expressed myself during those years.
    I was an angry royal pain in the ass, and caused a lot of pain to people close to me.
    I’d give a lot to take all of that back.

  668. A brief follow-up:
    If I have regrets about my time as one of the religious hard-core, it’s to do with the harsh and judgemental way that I manifested and expressed myself during those years.
    I was an angry royal pain in the ass, and caused a lot of pain to people close to me.
    I’d give a lot to take all of that back.

  671. @russell
    “Fundamentalist” threw me a bit, given your consistently sensible, matter-of-fact, and down-to-earth manner. Thank you for sharing this.

  672. @russell
    “Fundamentalist” threw me a bit, given your consistently sensible, matter-of-fact, and down-to-earth manner. Thank you for sharing this.

  673. Our routes to and from religion can be fascinating. Growing up we were vaguely Lutheran. Mostly because (it was the 1950s after all) belonging to some church was the “done thing”. And it was handy.
    Then one day, on the way home from Sunday School, my mother asked what we had learned and one of my siblings said “I learned we are born evil.” Mother snapped back “Well you weren’t!” And that was the end of church attendance for our family.

  674. Our routes to and from religion can be fascinating. Growing up we were vaguely Lutheran. Mostly because (it was the 1950s after all) belonging to some church was the “done thing”. And it was handy.
    Then one day, on the way home from Sunday School, my mother asked what we had learned and one of my siblings said “I learned we are born evil.” Mother snapped back “Well you weren’t!” And that was the end of church attendance for our family.

  675. Bravo for your mother, wj. Of all the pernicious religious teachings, that is one of the worst.

  676. Bravo for your mother, wj. Of all the pernicious religious teachings, that is one of the worst.

  677. Was thinking about russell’s post and this just kinda came out. It’s way off-topic, but I have no place else to put it, and I feel like I need to put it somewhere. So ObWi-izens – you’re stuck with it.
    My parents were/are religious. Mom more so – Elder, member of Session, the whole nine yards in the Long Island suburban Presbyterian Church in which I was raised. Dad was Lutheran, like everyone else in the German enclave in Queens he grew up in. Neither wore it on their sleeve. This may sound flippant – or even cruel – but I credit them for instilling in me the wherewithal to leave religion behind.
    I went to Sunday School every week and somewhat diligently adhered to what I was taught. I don’t remember when, exactly, but it was fairly early in primary school… eight, perhaps? Things began to seep in despite my youthful distractions. Noah and his family were spared, but what about everything else that had drowned? People who weren’t baptized went to Hell? For eternity? God asked Abraham to do what? And he was gonna do it???!
    This stuff was really beginning to not comport with my nascent grasp of concepts like “merciful” and “good”.
    I spent no small amount of time being grounded for the impetuousness of youth, but I was pretty sure I wasn’t evil. Or irreparably compromised by some audacious tart who dared to partake of the Tree of Knowledge. Mom was a teacher. Dad, an engineer. The “Tree of Knowledge” was there for the taking at every opportunity! Encouraged! I was as God made me. WTF?
    So… I went through the motions all the way through 9th grade to my Confirmation. My first official act as a Member of the Church in Good Standing was to not go back. Or so I thought. Mom guilted me into singing in the choir for another year. This is particularly funny if you knew how poorly I sing (sang?).
    Looking back, for an institution with such a long history, my church was almost secular. No fire and brimstone. Sunday School went by the numbers, but the sermons were almost always against judgment and about just being a decent human being. We sponsored Laotian refugees. I don’t recall any exclusivity. At all. It was only when I got to college that I discovered what Presbyterian and Lutheran looked like in places like West Virginia and Wisconsin. I can’t imagine being brought up in that.
    Sometimes I think things are easier with religious guardrails. Stay inside the lines and you’re good. Not so easy without them.
    You can’t get to Dad’s house without driving by the church. It is still a historical fascination to me. I got a concussion falling off a ladder fixing the roof on the utility shed in the back. I babysat for the kids of the steeplejacks who repaired the bell tower. I worked as a sexton for a college summer. I was an honorary member of the family down the street because they needed one more person to light the Advent candles. I know every inch of it, down to the ratty “organ shoes” used by the Choral Director.
    I’ve been back once since that sexton job.
    Mom passed 10 years ago last week. Her birthday is Valentine’s Day. Dad just told me that he has moved her ashes to the Memorial Garden that my friend and I built for the church as a summer project in High School.
    I will be back to visit the garden next week.

  678. Was thinking about russell’s post and this just kinda came out. It’s way off-topic, but I have no place else to put it, and I feel like I need to put it somewhere. So ObWi-izens – you’re stuck with it.
    My parents were/are religious. Mom more so – Elder, member of Session, the whole nine yards in the Long Island suburban Presbyterian Church in which I was raised. Dad was Lutheran, like everyone else in the German enclave in Queens he grew up in. Neither wore it on their sleeve. This may sound flippant – or even cruel – but I credit them for instilling in me the wherewithal to leave religion behind.
    I went to Sunday School every week and somewhat diligently adhered to what I was taught. I don’t remember when, exactly, but it was fairly early in primary school… eight, perhaps? Things began to seep in despite my youthful distractions. Noah and his family were spared, but what about everything else that had drowned? People who weren’t baptized went to Hell? For eternity? God asked Abraham to do what? And he was gonna do it???!
    This stuff was really beginning to not comport with my nascent grasp of concepts like “merciful” and “good”.
    I spent no small amount of time being grounded for the impetuousness of youth, but I was pretty sure I wasn’t evil. Or irreparably compromised by some audacious tart who dared to partake of the Tree of Knowledge. Mom was a teacher. Dad, an engineer. The “Tree of Knowledge” was there for the taking at every opportunity! Encouraged! I was as God made me. WTF?
    So… I went through the motions all the way through 9th grade to my Confirmation. My first official act as a Member of the Church in Good Standing was to not go back. Or so I thought. Mom guilted me into singing in the choir for another year. This is particularly funny if you knew how poorly I sing (sang?).
    Looking back, for an institution with such a long history, my church was almost secular. No fire and brimstone. Sunday School went by the numbers, but the sermons were almost always against judgment and about just being a decent human being. We sponsored Laotian refugees. I don’t recall any exclusivity. At all. It was only when I got to college that I discovered what Presbyterian and Lutheran looked like in places like West Virginia and Wisconsin. I can’t imagine being brought up in that.
    Sometimes I think things are easier with religious guardrails. Stay inside the lines and you’re good. Not so easy without them.
    You can’t get to Dad’s house without driving by the church. It is still a historical fascination to me. I got a concussion falling off a ladder fixing the roof on the utility shed in the back. I babysat for the kids of the steeplejacks who repaired the bell tower. I worked as a sexton for a college summer. I was an honorary member of the family down the street because they needed one more person to light the Advent candles. I know every inch of it, down to the ratty “organ shoes” used by the Choral Director.
    I’ve been back once since that sexton job.
    Mom passed 10 years ago last week. Her birthday is Valentine’s Day. Dad just told me that he has moved her ashes to the Memorial Garden that my friend and I built for the church as a summer project in High School.
    I will be back to visit the garden next week.

  679. Thank you for that, Pete. So far from being any kind of imposition, it was interesting, touching and actually beautiful in parts.
    I’m also with you all the way in being unable to imagine russell being what anybody sane would call fundamentalist. But on the other hand, I can’t disbelieve russell’s story, because it is russell telling it, so it just goes to show how extreme a personal evolution can be.
    Obviously, given my great Dylan fandom, I was also delighted by russell’s quoting of a line I think of often:
    Ah but I was so much older then,
    I’m younger than that now.

  680. Thank you for that, Pete. So far from being any kind of imposition, it was interesting, touching and actually beautiful in parts.
    I’m also with you all the way in being unable to imagine russell being what anybody sane would call fundamentalist. But on the other hand, I can’t disbelieve russell’s story, because it is russell telling it, so it just goes to show how extreme a personal evolution can be.
    Obviously, given my great Dylan fandom, I was also delighted by russell’s quoting of a line I think of often:
    Ah but I was so much older then,
    I’m younger than that now.

  681. I was pondering the other day how many phrases from songs I hear in my head as life flows past.
    Some are the punch lines like the Dylan line or more recently,
    Makin the best of a worst day kind of night
    While others are buried in the heart of a song, not the punch line but a great line like
    I don’t care what you think you heard, we’re still learning how to fly
    For me, interesting enough to ponder, unforgettable in context.
    Just an incredible body of good thoughts to support me. Made me feel blessed.
    I loved the story Pete. I havent been in a church except for a wedding in 30 years, but I am still sustained by the fellowship of christian souls.
    No point just felt like
    https://youtu.be/WI7YCYR4EyM
    https://youtu.be/EFrpzPR6TLY

  682. I was pondering the other day how many phrases from songs I hear in my head as life flows past.
    Some are the punch lines like the Dylan line or more recently,
    Makin the best of a worst day kind of night
    While others are buried in the heart of a song, not the punch line but a great line like
    I don’t care what you think you heard, we’re still learning how to fly
    For me, interesting enough to ponder, unforgettable in context.
    Just an incredible body of good thoughts to support me. Made me feel blessed.
    I loved the story Pete. I havent been in a church except for a wedding in 30 years, but I am still sustained by the fellowship of christian souls.
    No point just felt like
    https://youtu.be/WI7YCYR4EyM
    https://youtu.be/EFrpzPR6TLY

  683. Ya just gotta love stuff like this:
    https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-8-part-g-chapter-12
    Briefly, when someone applies for a green card, the official is supposed to make a subjective assessment of whether he will make use of public benefits “at any time in the future.” That’s so subjective, that the Citizenship and Immigration Services published some additional guidance. One of the negative factors (indications that someone might one day use welfare services)? Applying for a green card.
    You read that right. The act of applying for a green card may be grounds for denying you a green card. I suppose it depends on whether the officer likes your race and ethnic group. Although your religion might matter more to some. Blank check to discriminate there.

  684. Ya just gotta love stuff like this:
    https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-8-part-g-chapter-12
    Briefly, when someone applies for a green card, the official is supposed to make a subjective assessment of whether he will make use of public benefits “at any time in the future.” That’s so subjective, that the Citizenship and Immigration Services published some additional guidance. One of the negative factors (indications that someone might one day use welfare services)? Applying for a green card.
    You read that right. The act of applying for a green card may be grounds for denying you a green card. I suppose it depends on whether the officer likes your race and ethnic group. Although your religion might matter more to some. Blank check to discriminate there.

  689. speaking of green cards…
    my brother recently married a woman who was originally from Nigeria. they had a baby last year and took her to visit her grandparents in Nigeria last month.
    but when they got to the airport, they discovered that the US won’t let her come back, even though she has a green card, and is married to an American, and her daughter is American.
    because: Nigeria.
    lawyers have been summoned.

  690. speaking of green cards…
    my brother recently married a woman who was originally from Nigeria. they had a baby last year and took her to visit her grandparents in Nigeria last month.
    but when they got to the airport, they discovered that the US won’t let her come back, even though she has a green card, and is married to an American, and her daughter is American.
    because: Nigeria.
    lawyers have been summoned.

  693. Jesus wept cleek, that’s awful. When you say “when they got to the airport” do you mean they only discovered this on their way back? Or were they made aware of it on their way out, so were able to abort the trip and fight it in the US? Either way, it’s a fucking travesty….

  694. Jesus wept cleek, that’s awful. When you say “when they got to the airport” do you mean they only discovered this on their way back? Or were they made aware of it on their way out, so were able to abort the trip and fight it in the US? Either way, it’s a fucking travesty….

  695. cleek, I’m so sorry this is happening to your family (or anyone’s). Living in this fascist nightmare isn’t just theoretical.
    I hate them more every minute.

  696. cleek, I’m so sorry this is happening to your family (or anyone’s). Living in this fascist nightmare isn’t just theoretical.
    I hate them more every minute.

  697. When you say “when they got to the airport” do you mean they only discovered this on their way back?
    yep. she was prevented from boarding the plane back to the US.

  698. When you say “when they got to the airport” do you mean they only discovered this on their way back?
    yep. she was prevented from boarding the plane back to the US.

  699. Oh my god. I’m so sorry to hear this. And sapient’s right, this feels particularly raw because you are, as one might say, someone “we” know. But of course this is happening to thousands of people we don’t know. It’s unspeakably horrible, and a horrific indictment of America in 2020. Do please let us know how it progresses, if you feel comfortable doing so.

  700. Oh my god. I’m so sorry to hear this. And sapient’s right, this feels particularly raw because you are, as one might say, someone “we” know. But of course this is happening to thousands of people we don’t know. It’s unspeakably horrible, and a horrific indictment of America in 2020. Do please let us know how it progresses, if you feel comfortable doing so.

  701. I’m having trouble finding words to describe my feelings about cleek’s sister-in-law’s situation – her whole family’s situation. Why? Why? Why?

  702. I’m having trouble finding words to describe my feelings about cleek’s sister-in-law’s situation – her whole family’s situation. Why? Why? Why?

  703. looks like it’s some paperwork thing. she’s being told she was supposed to have a particular magic document (because Nigeria?) instead of the other magic document that she does have that’s worked on all of the other border crossings they’ve done.
    it’s ridiculous.

  704. looks like it’s some paperwork thing. she’s being told she was supposed to have a particular magic document (because Nigeria?) instead of the other magic document that she does have that’s worked on all of the other border crossings they’ve done.
    it’s ridiculous.

  705. it’s ridiculous.
    It’s fuckery.
    They don’t want black and brown people, or people from “shit-hole countries”, in the US.
    I live in an area where there is no small number of illegal Irish immigrants. Irish people are not being prevented from boarding planes, to or from the US.
    Why is that, you may ask?
    The confusion about what magic document is needed is a feature, not a bug.

  706. it’s ridiculous.
    It’s fuckery.
    They don’t want black and brown people, or people from “shit-hole countries”, in the US.
    I live in an area where there is no small number of illegal Irish immigrants. Irish people are not being prevented from boarding planes, to or from the US.
    Why is that, you may ask?
    The confusion about what magic document is needed is a feature, not a bug.

  707. I got an email from my son’s high school about his senior trip to Disney next year. He’ll have turned 18 by then, and will have to have a Real ID (or an unexpired passport or one of a number of federal IDs that no high school kid has) to board a plane, even for domestic travel.
    He just got his “basic” driver’s license on Wednesday, which is not a Real ID. The good news is that it’s only good for a year, after which he gets a regular license, with the option to have it produced as a Real ID.
    I’m not sure what problem is being solved.

  708. I got an email from my son’s high school about his senior trip to Disney next year. He’ll have turned 18 by then, and will have to have a Real ID (or an unexpired passport or one of a number of federal IDs that no high school kid has) to board a plane, even for domestic travel.
    He just got his “basic” driver’s license on Wednesday, which is not a Real ID. The good news is that it’s only good for a year, after which he gets a regular license, with the option to have it produced as a Real ID.
    I’m not sure what problem is being solved.

  709. Here’s an op-ed from 2018 on Real ID.
    https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-ulin-real-id-20180730-story.html

    California, along with many other states, still offers licenses that are “non-compliant,” although after October 2020, they won’t be accepted at airports or get you into many federal buildings — courthouses, for example.

    I guess if you’re subpoenaed you can get into the courthouse without one?

    Without Real ID, the U.S. has not experienced another 9/11-scale attack, and terrorism remains (thankfully, fortunately) an abstraction to most of us. If another strike is brewing, IDs will not protect us. The 9/11 hijackers, remember, had passports, and all but one had legal visas that would have allowed them to travel freely in the United States even under Real ID rules.

    Again, I’m not sure what problem is being solved.

  710. Here’s an op-ed from 2018 on Real ID.
    https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-ulin-real-id-20180730-story.html

    California, along with many other states, still offers licenses that are “non-compliant,” although after October 2020, they won’t be accepted at airports or get you into many federal buildings — courthouses, for example.

    I guess if you’re subpoenaed you can get into the courthouse without one?

    Without Real ID, the U.S. has not experienced another 9/11-scale attack, and terrorism remains (thankfully, fortunately) an abstraction to most of us. If another strike is brewing, IDs will not protect us. The 9/11 hijackers, remember, had passports, and all but one had legal visas that would have allowed them to travel freely in the United States even under Real ID rules.

    Again, I’m not sure what problem is being solved.

  711. The confusion about what magic document is needed is a feature, not a bug.
    oh, no doubt.
    and they say shit like this:

    Acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney told a crowd at a private gathering in England on Wednesday night that the Trump administration “needs more immigrants” for the U.S. economy to continue growing, according to an audio recording of his remarks obtained by The Washington Post.
    “We are desperate — desperate — for more people,” Mulvaney said. “We are running out of people to fuel the economic growth that we’ve had in our nation over the last four years. We need more immigrants.”

    GOP: Make America Cruel And Incompetent

  712. The confusion about what magic document is needed is a feature, not a bug.
    oh, no doubt.
    and they say shit like this:

    Acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney told a crowd at a private gathering in England on Wednesday night that the Trump administration “needs more immigrants” for the U.S. economy to continue growing, according to an audio recording of his remarks obtained by The Washington Post.
    “We are desperate — desperate — for more people,” Mulvaney said. “We are running out of people to fuel the economic growth that we’ve had in our nation over the last four years. We need more immigrants.”

    GOP: Make America Cruel And Incompetent

  713. I still don’t really get the notion that economic growth, even when dependent on a growing population, is something to strive for. Who’s better off if your economy grows by 5% only because your population grew by 5%? Maybe it’s more for the oligarchs and plutocrats to skim from.

  714. I still don’t really get the notion that economic growth, even when dependent on a growing population, is something to strive for. Who’s better off if your economy grows by 5% only because your population grew by 5%? Maybe it’s more for the oligarchs and plutocrats to skim from.

  715. He probably means indentured not immigrant workers but believes that the former means ‘dental care included’ which of course would be communism.

  716. He probably means indentured not immigrant workers but believes that the former means ‘dental care included’ which of course would be communism.

  717. Cleek:
    Nigeria was just added to the travel ban 1/31. It was over non-sharing of security info and they expect it to be lifted soon, as Nigeria had a few more things to fix to allow full sharing of info (e.g. criminal convictions). It wasn’t supposed to go into effect until today or tomorrow,though. It shouldn’t affected her, but she may have simply been caught up in implementation errors.
    I guess the “no brown people” theory will be tested by whether the ban is lifted soon. If it is just a security issue, it should be as Nigeria is committed to fixing the issues.
    FWIW, Nigeria rates 3rd on the list of visa overstays. That shouldn’t affect a permanent resident, but in my past experience (way back, like 20 years ago when I practiced some immigration law and it was just the INS) it did. Almost anything did and it was somewhat random.

  718. Cleek:
    Nigeria was just added to the travel ban 1/31. It was over non-sharing of security info and they expect it to be lifted soon, as Nigeria had a few more things to fix to allow full sharing of info (e.g. criminal convictions). It wasn’t supposed to go into effect until today or tomorrow,though. It shouldn’t affected her, but she may have simply been caught up in implementation errors.
    I guess the “no brown people” theory will be tested by whether the ban is lifted soon. If it is just a security issue, it should be as Nigeria is committed to fixing the issues.
    FWIW, Nigeria rates 3rd on the list of visa overstays. That shouldn’t affect a permanent resident, but in my past experience (way back, like 20 years ago when I practiced some immigration law and it was just the INS) it did. Almost anything did and it was somewhat random.

  719. Again, I’m not sure what problem is being solved.
    As with most of the TSA’s security check-in requirements (the ones no other country has found necessary), this has one overriding purpose: to give politicians something, something sufficiently obnoxious to be memorable, to point to and say “steps have been taken.” Of all the stuff implemented since 9/11, only 3 items have actually made a useful difference:

    1. Reinforced cockpit doors.
    2. Increased passenger willingness to attack a would-be hijacker.
    3. The presence of armed air marshals on more flights.

    Everything else is just posturing. (As in, tests show that around 90% of attempts to get weapons, etc. thru airport security succeed.)

  720. Again, I’m not sure what problem is being solved.
    As with most of the TSA’s security check-in requirements (the ones no other country has found necessary), this has one overriding purpose: to give politicians something, something sufficiently obnoxious to be memorable, to point to and say “steps have been taken.” Of all the stuff implemented since 9/11, only 3 items have actually made a useful difference:

    1. Reinforced cockpit doors.
    2. Increased passenger willingness to attack a would-be hijacker.
    3. The presence of armed air marshals on more flights.

    Everything else is just posturing. (As in, tests show that around 90% of attempts to get weapons, etc. thru airport security succeed.)

  727. Yes, RealID is a stupid thing.
    If it’s something needed for flying, etc., just get a passport. The passport is good for longer, a kid of 16 can get a “10 year” adult passport. (A younger kid can only get a “5 year” passport, but doesn’t have the option of a driver’s license either).
    But the main thing? A passport is the ultimate “Want my ID? Is THIS good enough, fuckyouverymuch?”

  728. Yes, RealID is a stupid thing.
    If it’s something needed for flying, etc., just get a passport. The passport is good for longer, a kid of 16 can get a “10 year” adult passport. (A younger kid can only get a “5 year” passport, but doesn’t have the option of a driver’s license either).
    But the main thing? A passport is the ultimate “Want my ID? Is THIS good enough, fuckyouverymuch?”

  737. there are also algorithms that prevent people from entering the US and even harass US citizens at the border
    And the more you know about algorithms, and about the code which is supposed to implement them, the more concerning it is.

  738. there are also algorithms that prevent people from entering the US and even harass US citizens at the border
    And the more you know about algorithms, and about the code which is supposed to implement them, the more concerning it is.

  739. On the cleek sis-in-law situation, if this was a pure administrative mistake on their part (while admittedly being about to implement a horrible policy) as bc seems to suggest, in that they penalised her before the date when they were entitled to, is there any way cleek’s bro and sis-in-law can sue for either the additional costs they incurred, or emotional distress etc? I assume not, and that the USG always indemnifies itself for any such errors, but I’d be interested to hear from any lawyers around.

  740. On the cleek sis-in-law situation, if this was a pure administrative mistake on their part (while admittedly being about to implement a horrible policy) as bc seems to suggest, in that they penalised her before the date when they were entitled to, is there any way cleek’s bro and sis-in-law can sue for either the additional costs they incurred, or emotional distress etc? I assume not, and that the USG always indemnifies itself for any such errors, but I’d be interested to hear from any lawyers around.

  743. Thank you for the kind words, Marty & GFTNC.
    Glad to hear things worked out with cleek’s family, although it does little to diminish the anger that it happened.
    Just saw on the Twitter that Biden is strolling around a caucus site. For a guy who’s had some issues with boundaries… he’s still got some issues with boundaries.

  744. Thank you for the kind words, Marty & GFTNC.
    Glad to hear things worked out with cleek’s family, although it does little to diminish the anger that it happened.
    Just saw on the Twitter that Biden is strolling around a caucus site. For a guy who’s had some issues with boundaries… he’s still got some issues with boundaries.

  747. Who’s better off if your economy grows by 5% only because your population grew by 5%?
    people whose job it is to brag about GDP growth numbers.

  748. Who’s better off if your economy grows by 5% only because your population grew by 5%?
    people whose job it is to brag about GDP growth numbers.

  749. “Who’s better off if your economy grows by 5% only because your population grew by 5%?”
    The guys who take a half of a percent off the top.

  750. “Who’s better off if your economy grows by 5% only because your population grew by 5%?”
    The guys who take a half of a percent off the top.

  753. Who’s better off if your economy grows by 5% only because your population grew by 5%? Maybe it’s more for the oligarchs and plutocrats to skim from.
    Maybe the immigrants who make up the incremental 5% of the population?

  754. Who’s better off if your economy grows by 5% only because your population grew by 5%? Maybe it’s more for the oligarchs and plutocrats to skim from.
    Maybe the immigrants who make up the incremental 5% of the population?

  755. So who are “the guys who take a half of a percent off the top”, Marty?
    wok college students, their radical professors, reporters, and hollywood actors. Sometimes the poors get into the act…you know, living high off SSI and food stamps.
    my bookie gets 10%. The real oppressor.

  756. So who are “the guys who take a half of a percent off the top”, Marty?
    wok college students, their radical professors, reporters, and hollywood actors. Sometimes the poors get into the act…you know, living high off SSI and food stamps.
    my bookie gets 10%. The real oppressor.

  759. It looks as though you’ll get to test the proposition that a socialist cannot win in the US.
    Granted, but Bernie is more like Henry A. Wallace than Gene Debs.

  760. It looks as though you’ll get to test the proposition that a socialist cannot win in the US.
    Granted, but Bernie is more like Henry A. Wallace than Gene Debs.

  763. my bookie gets 10%. The real oppressor.
    It’s only 5%, isn’t it? Oppressive nonetheless.
    If we didn’t have all these job-killing regulations on sports gambling it would be cheaper.

  764. my bookie gets 10%. The real oppressor.
    It’s only 5%, isn’t it? Oppressive nonetheless.
    If we didn’t have all these job-killing regulations on sports gambling it would be cheaper.

  765. Maybe the immigrants who make up the incremental 5% of the population?
    Most likely. But I somehow doubt that people who are pushing for economic growth as a good unto itself give a sh*t about the welfare of those hypothetical immigrants.
    So I agree with you and cleek.
    people whose job it is to brag about GDP growth numbers.

  766. Maybe the immigrants who make up the incremental 5% of the population?
    Most likely. But I somehow doubt that people who are pushing for economic growth as a good unto itself give a sh*t about the welfare of those hypothetical immigrants.
    So I agree with you and cleek.
    people whose job it is to brag about GDP growth numbers.

  771. Not as oppressive as state lotteries that take over 50%.
    State lotteries: a tax on ignorance of statistics.
    But hey, at least it’s a totally voluntary tax.

  772. Not as oppressive as state lotteries that take over 50%.
    State lotteries: a tax on ignorance of statistics.
    But hey, at least it’s a totally voluntary tax.

  777. Not as oppressive as state lotteries that take over 50%.
    I’m actually opposed to state lotteries, fat lot of good that does.
    IMO a state government has an obligation not to take advantage of its residents, and lotteries do just that, especially of those in the lower economic classes.
    Bookmakers can do what they like. Government ought to operate at a higher level.

  778. Not as oppressive as state lotteries that take over 50%.
    I’m actually opposed to state lotteries, fat lot of good that does.
    IMO a state government has an obligation not to take advantage of its residents, and lotteries do just that, especially of those in the lower economic classes.
    Bookmakers can do what they like. Government ought to operate at a higher level.

  779. IMO a state government has an obligation not to take advantage of its residents, and lotteries do just that, especially of those in the lower economic classes.
    The thing is, states have a very limited ability to save people from themselves. (See Prohibition)
    People will gamble — including the poor gambling money that they cannot afford to lose. All a state lottery does is redirect some of the profits from that gambling into the state treasury, rather than into the pockets of bookmakers. Oh yes, and provide some level of honesty, should a long shot come in.

  780. IMO a state government has an obligation not to take advantage of its residents, and lotteries do just that, especially of those in the lower economic classes.
    The thing is, states have a very limited ability to save people from themselves. (See Prohibition)
    People will gamble — including the poor gambling money that they cannot afford to lose. All a state lottery does is redirect some of the profits from that gambling into the state treasury, rather than into the pockets of bookmakers. Oh yes, and provide some level of honesty, should a long shot come in.

  783. That makes 3 of us. Buying lotto tickets should be means tested…only people with high incomes can play. And they would have to pee in a cup.

  784. That makes 3 of us. Buying lotto tickets should be means tested…only people with high incomes can play. And they would have to pee in a cup.

  785. All a state lottery does is redirect some of the profits from that gambling into the state treasury, rather than into the pockets of bookmakers.
    It is just a very regressive tax. I hear they tax bookmakers in Nevada. True story!

  786. All a state lottery does is redirect some of the profits from that gambling into the state treasury, rather than into the pockets of bookmakers.
    It is just a very regressive tax. I hear they tax bookmakers in Nevada. True story!

  787. For those of you who are predisposed to see a Sanders’ candidacy as akin to the McGovern shellacking….I’d say you are waging the last war, not this war. My analogy would be to point out that kind of thinking is the same kind of thinking that gave France the Maginot Line.
    Naturally, opinions may vary, but it would be useful to actually read up on what actually took place in 1972, which, by the way was nearly 50 years ago.

  788. For those of you who are predisposed to see a Sanders’ candidacy as akin to the McGovern shellacking….I’d say you are waging the last war, not this war. My analogy would be to point out that kind of thinking is the same kind of thinking that gave France the Maginot Line.
    Naturally, opinions may vary, but it would be useful to actually read up on what actually took place in 1972, which, by the way was nearly 50 years ago.

  791. It is just a very regressive tax.
    I thought the distinguishing characteristic of a tax is that it’s involuntary. At least, that’s part of the complaint of those who hate taxes on principle. To my knowledge, nobody is forced to buy a lottery ticket. And they’re free to choose a different gambling game if they wish.
    No argument that lottery tickets are a bad buy, especially for the poor. But a regressive tax it ain’t.

  792. It is just a very regressive tax.
    I thought the distinguishing characteristic of a tax is that it’s involuntary. At least, that’s part of the complaint of those who hate taxes on principle. To my knowledge, nobody is forced to buy a lottery ticket. And they’re free to choose a different gambling game if they wish.
    No argument that lottery tickets are a bad buy, especially for the poor. But a regressive tax it ain’t.

  793. bobbyp: What we are up against.
    Unlike Nixon, Trump doesn’t have an Enemies List. Probably because it would involve too much reading and writing. Unfortunately, he seems to be managing without one.

  794. bobbyp: What we are up against.
    Unlike Nixon, Trump doesn’t have an Enemies List. Probably because it would involve too much reading and writing. Unfortunately, he seems to be managing without one.

  795. Unlike Nixon, Trump doesn’t have an Enemies List.
    He does; it’s just a very short one.
    Anyone who does not pledge absolute fealty.

  796. Unlike Nixon, Trump doesn’t have an Enemies List.
    He does; it’s just a very short one.
    Anyone who does not pledge absolute fealty.

  797. OK, I get that ‘centrists’ are a bit freaked out by a Sanders candidacy, don’t like him, whatever – but come one seriously, what on earth?
    Jewish Group Demands MSNBC’s Chris Matthews Apologize for Comparing Bernie Sanders’ Victory to Nazi Invasion
    https://www.newsweek.com/jewish-group-demands-msnbcs-chris-matthews-apologize-comparing-bernie-sanders-victory-nazi-1488655
    Washington Post: “How Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders Both Reject the Reality of Climate Change”
    https://twitter.com/jayrosen_nyu/status/1231801587976331264

  798. OK, I get that ‘centrists’ are a bit freaked out by a Sanders candidacy, don’t like him, whatever – but come one seriously, what on earth?
    Jewish Group Demands MSNBC’s Chris Matthews Apologize for Comparing Bernie Sanders’ Victory to Nazi Invasion
    https://www.newsweek.com/jewish-group-demands-msnbcs-chris-matthews-apologize-comparing-bernie-sanders-victory-nazi-1488655
    Washington Post: “How Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders Both Reject the Reality of Climate Change”
    https://twitter.com/jayrosen_nyu/status/1231801587976331264

  805. The thing is, states have a very limited ability to save people from themselves. (See Prohibition)
    People will gamble — including the poor gambling money that they cannot afford to lose. All a state lottery does is redirect some of the profits from that gambling into the state treasury, rather than into the pockets of bookmakers.
    It does more than that.
    It goes way beyond allowing gambling to actually encourage it.
    Within a few blocks of where I live there are at least three places – convenience stores – where I can go buy lottery tickets, and they all have signs in the window advertising the jackpots. While I can drive a few miles to a casino, there aren’t a lot of walk-in bookmakers around.
    So the lottery is both heavily advertised and widely available. I’d say that’s more than just shifting gambling away from bookmakers and casinos, who by the way offer a lot better deal.
    Do you favor states promoting drinking and smoking, in order to increase tax revenues? Selling liquor at the DMV?

  806. The thing is, states have a very limited ability to save people from themselves. (See Prohibition)
    People will gamble — including the poor gambling money that they cannot afford to lose. All a state lottery does is redirect some of the profits from that gambling into the state treasury, rather than into the pockets of bookmakers.
    It does more than that.
    It goes way beyond allowing gambling to actually encourage it.
    Within a few blocks of where I live there are at least three places – convenience stores – where I can go buy lottery tickets, and they all have signs in the window advertising the jackpots. While I can drive a few miles to a casino, there aren’t a lot of walk-in bookmakers around.
    So the lottery is both heavily advertised and widely available. I’d say that’s more than just shifting gambling away from bookmakers and casinos, who by the way offer a lot better deal.
    Do you favor states promoting drinking and smoking, in order to increase tax revenues? Selling liquor at the DMV?

  807. End all Lotteries.
    Raise taxes like a decent civilization.
    But it’s pigfucker Republican America, so the options are closed.
    I would go along with a Shirley Jackson-style lottery to stone Republican politicians and their operatives and base to Death.
    At $50 per stone, we could pay for a lot of solutions.
    I’m in New Orleans at Mardi Gras.
    Back to lurking.

  808. End all Lotteries.
    Raise taxes like a decent civilization.
    But it’s pigfucker Republican America, so the options are closed.
    I would go along with a Shirley Jackson-style lottery to stone Republican politicians and their operatives and base to Death.
    At $50 per stone, we could pay for a lot of solutions.
    I’m in New Orleans at Mardi Gras.
    Back to lurking.

  809. In Germany it used to be that locals were not allowed at the casino, i.e. one had to travel quite far (or what we would consider far) to legally gamble. And casinos were(are?) heavily taxed.

  810. In Germany it used to be that locals were not allowed at the casino, i.e. one had to travel quite far (or what we would consider far) to legally gamble. And casinos were(are?) heavily taxed.

  811. Is Trump making America great again, or just taking us back to the old days?
    I see this difference from the soi-disant “good old days”: the abuse of police powers and vote suppression were generally more narrowly focused then. Even where (as in parts of the South) voter suppression encompassed half the population, it did so in just a fraction of the country. Today, we are seeing the attacks much more widely.
    We aren’t back to the old days. Yet. But that’s just because of how far we’ve come. The supertanker which is American society doesn’t turn on a dime. That said, the current captain and his crew have the helm over as far as it will go. The longer that’s the case, the longer our recovery will take.

  812. Is Trump making America great again, or just taking us back to the old days?
    I see this difference from the soi-disant “good old days”: the abuse of police powers and vote suppression were generally more narrowly focused then. Even where (as in parts of the South) voter suppression encompassed half the population, it did so in just a fraction of the country. Today, we are seeing the attacks much more widely.
    We aren’t back to the old days. Yet. But that’s just because of how far we’ve come. The supertanker which is American society doesn’t turn on a dime. That said, the current captain and his crew have the helm over as far as it will go. The longer that’s the case, the longer our recovery will take.

  821. Not that this matters much except to me, but I’m starting to suspect Larison, my favorite foreign policy columnist, is becoming or has become a leftist, at least on some issues. I am almost disappointed. I want to see principled conservatives who oppose our idiotic self righteous blood soaked interventionist policies. Bipartisanship could be a good thing instead of something that fills one with dread. But if he is leftist on economics, fine. Or maybe he is just a very empathic analyst of the Democratic left.
    Anyway, he has said some very complimentary things about both Warren and Sanders in foreign policy, but now he seems to be applauding Sanders victory in Nevada, which had little to do with foreign policy afaik.
    But he was critical of Trump’s lack of aid to Puerto Rico, so maybe this has been a long time coming.

  822. Not that this matters much except to me, but I’m starting to suspect Larison, my favorite foreign policy columnist, is becoming or has become a leftist, at least on some issues. I am almost disappointed. I want to see principled conservatives who oppose our idiotic self righteous blood soaked interventionist policies. Bipartisanship could be a good thing instead of something that fills one with dread. But if he is leftist on economics, fine. Or maybe he is just a very empathic analyst of the Democratic left.
    Anyway, he has said some very complimentary things about both Warren and Sanders in foreign policy, but now he seems to be applauding Sanders victory in Nevada, which had little to do with foreign policy afaik.
    But he was critical of Trump’s lack of aid to Puerto Rico, so maybe this has been a long time coming.

  823. Larison, my favorite foreign policy columnist, is becoming or has become a leftist
    Categories are shifting. Hard to say where they’re gonna end up.
    What is clear to me is that Trump is a crook, and needs to go. We can figure the rest out later.

  824. Larison, my favorite foreign policy columnist, is becoming or has become a leftist
    Categories are shifting. Hard to say where they’re gonna end up.
    What is clear to me is that Trump is a crook, and needs to go. We can figure the rest out later.

  825. He really doesn’t like Bloomberg.
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/bloombergs-dictatorship-double-standard/
    I’d vote for him in November if I had to, but it would be lesser evilism as a geometric series converging to Trump—
    Vote for us because we are only half as bad.
    Or vote for us because we are only three fourths as bad ,
    No, vote for us because we are only seven eights as bad….
    Has to go to infinity to actually be as bad, but I hate convergence in politics as much as I hated epsilon delta proofs in calculus.
    And yes, I would still shut up after the nomination until November. Hope it doesn’t come to that.

  826. He really doesn’t like Bloomberg.
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/bloombergs-dictatorship-double-standard/
    I’d vote for him in November if I had to, but it would be lesser evilism as a geometric series converging to Trump—
    Vote for us because we are only half as bad.
    Or vote for us because we are only three fourths as bad ,
    No, vote for us because we are only seven eights as bad….
    Has to go to infinity to actually be as bad, but I hate convergence in politics as much as I hated epsilon delta proofs in calculus.
    And yes, I would still shut up after the nomination until November. Hope it doesn’t come to that.

  829. And yes, I would still shut up after the nomination until November. Hope it doesn’t come to that.
    I think pretty much everybody here feels the same. Not that our preferences in policy and politics are not wildly different. And we all have quite different politicians we would prefer as a result. Certainly there are some possible Democratic candidates that it would be painful to vote for. But sometimes even a lesser evil is vastly more upright than the alternative.

  830. And yes, I would still shut up after the nomination until November. Hope it doesn’t come to that.
    I think pretty much everybody here feels the same. Not that our preferences in policy and politics are not wildly different. And we all have quite different politicians we would prefer as a result. Certainly there are some possible Democratic candidates that it would be painful to vote for. But sometimes even a lesser evil is vastly more upright than the alternative.

  831. And yes, I would still shut up after the nomination until November. Hope it doesn’t come to that.
    I wouldn’t let it weigh too heavily on you until after the nominating convention.
    The query about Larison and economics is interesting. Your standard issue marxist critique sees imperialism (and/or interventions) as an outgrowth of or otherwise attributable to capitalism.
    I should think Larison got there by a different road.

  832. And yes, I would still shut up after the nomination until November. Hope it doesn’t come to that.
    I wouldn’t let it weigh too heavily on you until after the nominating convention.
    The query about Larison and economics is interesting. Your standard issue marxist critique sees imperialism (and/or interventions) as an outgrowth of or otherwise attributable to capitalism.
    I should think Larison got there by a different road.

  833. Bobbyp—
    Read this where he defends Sanders against Bloomberg on the issue of socialism.
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/foreign-policy-whats-that/
    Of course it could just be that Larison is an exceptionally honest conservative. He might not agree with Sanders’s social democracy but find comparisons of that to totalitarian communism to be stupid and offensive.
    Not sure what Bloomberg’s chances are. Electability is a total mystery to me.
    He also says admiring things about him in the post about Nevada, but it might just be a sense of fairness.

  834. Bobbyp—
    Read this where he defends Sanders against Bloomberg on the issue of socialism.
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/foreign-policy-whats-that/
    Of course it could just be that Larison is an exceptionally honest conservative. He might not agree with Sanders’s social democracy but find comparisons of that to totalitarian communism to be stupid and offensive.
    Not sure what Bloomberg’s chances are. Electability is a total mystery to me.
    He also says admiring things about him in the post about Nevada, but it might just be a sense of fairness.

  835. “ He also says admiring things about him in the post about Nevada, but it might just be a sense of fairness.”
    My post got garbled. I was talking about Larison’s post on Nevada.

  836. “ He also says admiring things about him in the post about Nevada, but it might just be a sense of fairness.”
    My post got garbled. I was talking about Larison’s post on Nevada.

  837. Larison observed the following about a Bloomberg-Sanders exchange:
    Probably the most important exchange was between Sanders and Bloomberg. Sanders defended his democratic socialist label by pointing to the use of government funds to subsidize and assist corporations, and his point is that the government is already intervening in the economy for the few rather than the many. This was, as he put it, “socialism for the rich.” Bloomberg’s counter to this was as lame and unimaginative as everything else the former mayor had to say: he attacked Sanders for owning three homes and being a millionaire, and he tried to scare people by mentioning communism. The exchange was important because it shows how easily Sanders can turn the attack on his “socialism” around on the attacker in an appealing way, and it also shows that the biggest critics of this “socialism” evidently don’t have much of an argument against what Sanders is actually proposing. Like Bloomberg, they have to engage in tired red-baiting or they try to accuse Sanders of hypocrisy because he doesn’t live in a hovel.
    Bernie needs to pound this point relentlessly. It has power.
    Larison also wrote the following about foreign policy:
    Right now, I would argue that presidents wield far too much power in this area because they keep bypassing and ignoring Congress.
    This seems to be a fairly straightforward small “c” conservative appeal to balance of power small government principles and some kind of imagined Congressional supremacy in the foreign relations realm.
    In reality, the Presidency has not seized foreign relations supremacy from the Congress, it is something the office has alway had (Thomas Jefferson Louisiana Purchase which see). Lately Congress has gone overboard to grant the president even more power in this arena because the Prez. takes the heat, and the congresscritters get re-elected….which is the Prime Directive.

  838. Larison observed the following about a Bloomberg-Sanders exchange:
    Probably the most important exchange was between Sanders and Bloomberg. Sanders defended his democratic socialist label by pointing to the use of government funds to subsidize and assist corporations, and his point is that the government is already intervening in the economy for the few rather than the many. This was, as he put it, “socialism for the rich.” Bloomberg’s counter to this was as lame and unimaginative as everything else the former mayor had to say: he attacked Sanders for owning three homes and being a millionaire, and he tried to scare people by mentioning communism. The exchange was important because it shows how easily Sanders can turn the attack on his “socialism” around on the attacker in an appealing way, and it also shows that the biggest critics of this “socialism” evidently don’t have much of an argument against what Sanders is actually proposing. Like Bloomberg, they have to engage in tired red-baiting or they try to accuse Sanders of hypocrisy because he doesn’t live in a hovel.
    Bernie needs to pound this point relentlessly. It has power.
    Larison also wrote the following about foreign policy:
    Right now, I would argue that presidents wield far too much power in this area because they keep bypassing and ignoring Congress.
    This seems to be a fairly straightforward small “c” conservative appeal to balance of power small government principles and some kind of imagined Congressional supremacy in the foreign relations realm.
    In reality, the Presidency has not seized foreign relations supremacy from the Congress, it is something the office has alway had (Thomas Jefferson Louisiana Purchase which see). Lately Congress has gone overboard to grant the president even more power in this arena because the Prez. takes the heat, and the congresscritters get re-elected….which is the Prime Directive.

  839. some kind of imagined Congressional supremacy in the foreign relations realm.
    Congress has explicit supremacy in foreign relations in two ways:

    1. Only Congress can declare war. (Article 1, Section 8) Currently that gets finessed in multiple ways, but Congress could reassert itself.
    2. Congress, specifically the Senate, has veto power over any treaties. (Article 2, Section 2)

    Plus, only Congress (pre-Trump anyway) can decide whether, how, and on what, money gets spent pursuing foreign affairs.
    Nothing particularly imaginary. Unless you believe Trump’s “I can do anything I want” view of the Presidency.
    Granted, Presidents have been grabbing additional powers from very early on. But one can be a small-c conservative without necessarily endorsing even Jefferson’s power grab.

  840. some kind of imagined Congressional supremacy in the foreign relations realm.
    Congress has explicit supremacy in foreign relations in two ways:

    1. Only Congress can declare war. (Article 1, Section 8) Currently that gets finessed in multiple ways, but Congress could reassert itself.
    2. Congress, specifically the Senate, has veto power over any treaties. (Article 2, Section 2)

    Plus, only Congress (pre-Trump anyway) can decide whether, how, and on what, money gets spent pursuing foreign affairs.
    Nothing particularly imaginary. Unless you believe Trump’s “I can do anything I want” view of the Presidency.
    Granted, Presidents have been grabbing additional powers from very early on. But one can be a small-c conservative without necessarily endorsing even Jefferson’s power grab.

  841. The arguments against Sanders are primarily electoral.
    On ‘socialism’, it’s a label Sanders has claimed, and irrespective of the economic arguments, the evidence tends to show that while it’s not going to be a liability in seeking the Democratic nomination, it may well be so in the general election:
    https://news.gallup.com/poll/285563/socialism-atheism-political-liabilities.aspx
    Similarly, on foreign policy, while thinkers like Larison will see much to approve, the gut reaction from many will be quite different:
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/24/florida-dems-uproar-sanders-cuba-comments-117213
    There is a reasonable economic critique to be made (though in the age of Trump deficits that too is arguable), but Sanders does not help himself here:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/24/politics/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-2020/index.html
    I’d vote for him in a heartbeat against Trump, and given the failure of any of his opponents to establish themselves as serious contenders that is probably going to be the choice before the electorate, but I fear that he will prove a far stronger candidate for the nomination than for the presidency.

  842. The arguments against Sanders are primarily electoral.
    On ‘socialism’, it’s a label Sanders has claimed, and irrespective of the economic arguments, the evidence tends to show that while it’s not going to be a liability in seeking the Democratic nomination, it may well be so in the general election:
    https://news.gallup.com/poll/285563/socialism-atheism-political-liabilities.aspx
    Similarly, on foreign policy, while thinkers like Larison will see much to approve, the gut reaction from many will be quite different:
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/24/florida-dems-uproar-sanders-cuba-comments-117213
    There is a reasonable economic critique to be made (though in the age of Trump deficits that too is arguable), but Sanders does not help himself here:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/24/politics/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-2020/index.html
    I’d vote for him in a heartbeat against Trump, and given the failure of any of his opponents to establish themselves as serious contenders that is probably going to be the choice before the electorate, but I fear that he will prove a far stronger candidate for the nomination than for the presidency.

  845. I think someone needs to tie Sanders down on what happens with the insurance companies, and who picks up the MFA volume for the government. It seems that is a clear case of nationalizing an industry, taking over and controlling the means of production. Likely doing that by nationalizing the insurance companies themselves.
    It’s a stretch not to define that as socialism. Also now pre K and daycare, does he control we provide government controlled daycare disguised as “a public option”?
    Any pretense that Sanders isnt a classic communist by nature ignores a life time of his acts and words. The movement he describes is a classic description of how socialism, at least, is sold to the masses.
    If you like his policies, fine, but its intent is socialism in the classic sense.

  846. I think someone needs to tie Sanders down on what happens with the insurance companies, and who picks up the MFA volume for the government. It seems that is a clear case of nationalizing an industry, taking over and controlling the means of production. Likely doing that by nationalizing the insurance companies themselves.
    It’s a stretch not to define that as socialism. Also now pre K and daycare, does he control we provide government controlled daycare disguised as “a public option”?
    Any pretense that Sanders isnt a classic communist by nature ignores a life time of his acts and words. The movement he describes is a classic description of how socialism, at least, is sold to the masses.
    If you like his policies, fine, but its intent is socialism in the classic sense.

  847. It’s a stretch not to define that as socialism.
    IMO this is a very fair point.
    TBH the argument that it’s socialism doesn’t bother me, personally. There are lots of examples of goods and services that began as privately efforts, and which were subsequently taken over by the public sector.
    There are factors that make that more or less sensible – scale, general necessity of the good or service, whether the good or service can be considered a public good, whether the good or service is naturally monopolistic or otherwise not a good fit for a market solution. I don’t know if any or all of that applies to health insurance, there are arguments both ways.
    But in general I’m fine with the public sector stepping in, whether through regulation or simply by assuming ownership, if the provision of something that is actually necessary is impeded because it is being provided by private actors.
    So the idea of M4A does not bug me in the least.
    The practical reality of it has two really significant obstacles, IMO.
    First, it’s not clear to me that the Constitution – our Constitution – allows for outright government ownership of an entire industry. Again, the idea of that doesn’t bother me all that much, but as a simple reality it’s not clear that the language of the document actually makes room for it.
    Second, I don’t know how we get there from where we are now in any kind of practical timeframe without truly enormous disruption. Truly enormous. And by “practical timeframe” I mean a timeframe short enough to let us get it done before the political will to do it erodes due to changes in the composition of Congress and the Executive.
    We are not a nation that does planning on generational time-frames all that well.
    There is also the issue of an enormous number of people who don’t trust the government to, for example, deliver their mail, and who don’t want the feds anywhere near their health insurance.
    Not until they’re 65, anyway. 🙂
    It would be an enormous undertaking, I’m not sure we could pull it off without overwhelming public support.
    In any case, if we’re going to discuss it honestly, we have to acknowledge that it’s public ownership of a significant sector of the financial industry. Which actually is socialism as far as I can tell.
    Also: this bit:

    Any pretense that Sanders isnt a classic communist by nature ignores a life time of his acts and words.

    Is simply not accurate. What Sanders is about is not what communism is.

  848. It’s a stretch not to define that as socialism.
    IMO this is a very fair point.
    TBH the argument that it’s socialism doesn’t bother me, personally. There are lots of examples of goods and services that began as privately efforts, and which were subsequently taken over by the public sector.
    There are factors that make that more or less sensible – scale, general necessity of the good or service, whether the good or service can be considered a public good, whether the good or service is naturally monopolistic or otherwise not a good fit for a market solution. I don’t know if any or all of that applies to health insurance, there are arguments both ways.
    But in general I’m fine with the public sector stepping in, whether through regulation or simply by assuming ownership, if the provision of something that is actually necessary is impeded because it is being provided by private actors.
    So the idea of M4A does not bug me in the least.
    The practical reality of it has two really significant obstacles, IMO.
    First, it’s not clear to me that the Constitution – our Constitution – allows for outright government ownership of an entire industry. Again, the idea of that doesn’t bother me all that much, but as a simple reality it’s not clear that the language of the document actually makes room for it.
    Second, I don’t know how we get there from where we are now in any kind of practical timeframe without truly enormous disruption. Truly enormous. And by “practical timeframe” I mean a timeframe short enough to let us get it done before the political will to do it erodes due to changes in the composition of Congress and the Executive.
    We are not a nation that does planning on generational time-frames all that well.
    There is also the issue of an enormous number of people who don’t trust the government to, for example, deliver their mail, and who don’t want the feds anywhere near their health insurance.
    Not until they’re 65, anyway. 🙂
    It would be an enormous undertaking, I’m not sure we could pull it off without overwhelming public support.
    In any case, if we’re going to discuss it honestly, we have to acknowledge that it’s public ownership of a significant sector of the financial industry. Which actually is socialism as far as I can tell.
    Also: this bit:

    Any pretense that Sanders isnt a classic communist by nature ignores a life time of his acts and words.

    Is simply not accurate. What Sanders is about is not what communism is.

  849. Any pretense that Sanders isnt a classic communist by nature ignores a life time of his acts and words.
    Is simply not accurate. What Sanders is about is not what communism is.
    It is a Republican habit to elide the distinction between socialism and communism. No doubt Marty has picked it up.

  850. Any pretense that Sanders isnt a classic communist by nature ignores a life time of his acts and words.
    Is simply not accurate. What Sanders is about is not what communism is.
    It is a Republican habit to elide the distinction between socialism and communism. No doubt Marty has picked it up.

  853. The golf carts at Mar-a-Lago have been nationalized using my hard-earned tax dollars.
    My Lockheed Martin stock has done just fine producing inferior product as a wholly-subsidized subsidiary of the stinking fucking Republican gummint.
    Here’s how we balance the fucking budget and bring Medicare and Social Security into balance: throw conservative Republican diseased asses off the programs, while still collecting the taxes they pay into the programs. Don’t like it? Get violent ….. please. Or move to Cuba, if you love sanctions and embargos so much, because America is too fucking incompetent, republican corrupt and constitutionally predatory to run anything at reasonable cost that benefits everyone.

  854. The golf carts at Mar-a-Lago have been nationalized using my hard-earned tax dollars.
    My Lockheed Martin stock has done just fine producing inferior product as a wholly-subsidized subsidiary of the stinking fucking Republican gummint.
    Here’s how we balance the fucking budget and bring Medicare and Social Security into balance: throw conservative Republican diseased asses off the programs, while still collecting the taxes they pay into the programs. Don’t like it? Get violent ….. please. Or move to Cuba, if you love sanctions and embargos so much, because America is too fucking incompetent, republican corrupt and constitutionally predatory to run anything at reasonable cost that benefits everyone.

  857. If folks can glibly call MFA “socialism” or “communism” then I should think calling any and all Republicans “fascist pieces of shit” has just as much validity….which is to say none.

  858. If folks can glibly call MFA “socialism” or “communism” then I should think calling any and all Republicans “fascist pieces of shit” has just as much validity….which is to say none.

  859. Any pretense that Sanders isnt a classic communist by nature ignores a life time of his acts and words.
    also, both birds and helicopters can fly, therefore bats are Saturn 5 rockets.

  860. Any pretense that Sanders isnt a classic communist by nature ignores a life time of his acts and words.
    also, both birds and helicopters can fly, therefore bats are Saturn 5 rockets.

  861. First, it’s not clear to me that the Constitution – our Constitution – allows for outright government ownership of an entire industry.
    MFA, as currently proposed, does not call for “ownership of an entire industry.” It essentially calls for a single buyer of privately provided goods and services. Admittedly, that buyer would have a good deal of market power, but we are just fine with market power in just about any economic sector you can name.

  862. First, it’s not clear to me that the Constitution – our Constitution – allows for outright government ownership of an entire industry.
    MFA, as currently proposed, does not call for “ownership of an entire industry.” It essentially calls for a single buyer of privately provided goods and services. Admittedly, that buyer would have a good deal of market power, but we are just fine with market power in just about any economic sector you can name.

  863. MFA, as currently proposed, does not call for “ownership of an entire industry.”
    If I understand the proposals correctly – which I may not – private health insurance will be replaced by a public buyer. Health insurance is a fairly big industry.
    The most likely scenario would be a public insurance provider for some basic level of coverage, with private insurers offering plans to supplement that. Like we do now for Medicare. So, most likely not the total erasure of private health insurance, but a profound change to how the industry is structured.
    Perhaps for the better.
    Bullshit like this is why the idea is even on the table. h/t Atrios.
    There would be no argument of any strength for M4A if the private insurance system was functional. It is not.
    I’m not against M4A. I think there is a very, very strong argument for it. I also think putting it in place would be a pretty large logistical challenge, and highly disruptive, which is not to say it shouldn’t happen.
    And I also think it will face Constitutional challenges, some in good faith, some not.
    But hell yeah, do I think it is a perfectly fine thing for We The People to decide to provide universal basic health care coverage as a public good? Damned right I do.

  864. MFA, as currently proposed, does not call for “ownership of an entire industry.”
    If I understand the proposals correctly – which I may not – private health insurance will be replaced by a public buyer. Health insurance is a fairly big industry.
    The most likely scenario would be a public insurance provider for some basic level of coverage, with private insurers offering plans to supplement that. Like we do now for Medicare. So, most likely not the total erasure of private health insurance, but a profound change to how the industry is structured.
    Perhaps for the better.
    Bullshit like this is why the idea is even on the table. h/t Atrios.
    There would be no argument of any strength for M4A if the private insurance system was functional. It is not.
    I’m not against M4A. I think there is a very, very strong argument for it. I also think putting it in place would be a pretty large logistical challenge, and highly disruptive, which is not to say it shouldn’t happen.
    And I also think it will face Constitutional challenges, some in good faith, some not.
    But hell yeah, do I think it is a perfectly fine thing for We The People to decide to provide universal basic health care coverage as a public good? Damned right I do.

  865. BS is a lot closer to being a “small c” communist than he is to being anything even close to a free market traditional liberal. We can go on all day from there, and I’m sure this horse will be beaten into subatomic particles by November.
    That said, the Marty/Russell exchange hits the economic nail on the head and underscores BS’ ultimate weakness as a candidate. It wasn’t me who, on this site, criticized BS’ “innumeracy”. And that was a gross understatement.
    At least one significant point not made explicit in the M/R exchange is that MFA would require a substantial stifling and coercing of a substantial minority of Americans even if it had 60-70% support otherwise and even if there weren’t 5th and 14th Amendment issues along with the lack of a constitutional grant for nationalizing how Dr. X in Kingsville TX charges for treating the flu.
    Telling doctors and others, on pain of imprisonment (it comes down to that if you think it through), that they can only work for prices and practice medicine as decided by the national government is going to produce what socialism always produces, true scarcity and resulting widespread harm (historically, it has been famine, going forward, probably something like the coronavirus left unchecked because no one feels like working under those circumstances). Like the Kulaks, many doctors and nurses will find other work or simply refuse to play ball.
    The follow-on effect will be how to deal with revanchist pigs who won’t buckle under to the new order. It is said we have a doctor shortage. That won’t get better under MFA. We could, of course, dumb down the concept of doctor (thank you, Fidel Castro), and make RN’s into MD’s and immunize them from malpractice suits; which is also a byproduct of socialism (and communism)–which is people get less of lesser goods and services–what’s not to like?!?! My guess is that saboteurs of this nature will find themselves behind bars and the ideological successors of today’s Progressive concerns about over-crowded prisons will fall silent.
    In other news, an interesting observation from a person of the left: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/russia-sanders-campaign-taibbi-957377/

  866. BS is a lot closer to being a “small c” communist than he is to being anything even close to a free market traditional liberal. We can go on all day from there, and I’m sure this horse will be beaten into subatomic particles by November.
    That said, the Marty/Russell exchange hits the economic nail on the head and underscores BS’ ultimate weakness as a candidate. It wasn’t me who, on this site, criticized BS’ “innumeracy”. And that was a gross understatement.
    At least one significant point not made explicit in the M/R exchange is that MFA would require a substantial stifling and coercing of a substantial minority of Americans even if it had 60-70% support otherwise and even if there weren’t 5th and 14th Amendment issues along with the lack of a constitutional grant for nationalizing how Dr. X in Kingsville TX charges for treating the flu.
    Telling doctors and others, on pain of imprisonment (it comes down to that if you think it through), that they can only work for prices and practice medicine as decided by the national government is going to produce what socialism always produces, true scarcity and resulting widespread harm (historically, it has been famine, going forward, probably something like the coronavirus left unchecked because no one feels like working under those circumstances). Like the Kulaks, many doctors and nurses will find other work or simply refuse to play ball.
    The follow-on effect will be how to deal with revanchist pigs who won’t buckle under to the new order. It is said we have a doctor shortage. That won’t get better under MFA. We could, of course, dumb down the concept of doctor (thank you, Fidel Castro), and make RN’s into MD’s and immunize them from malpractice suits; which is also a byproduct of socialism (and communism)–which is people get less of lesser goods and services–what’s not to like?!?! My guess is that saboteurs of this nature will find themselves behind bars and the ideological successors of today’s Progressive concerns about over-crowded prisons will fall silent.
    In other news, an interesting observation from a person of the left: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/russia-sanders-campaign-taibbi-957377/

  867. russell: First, it’s not clear to me that the Constitution – our Constitution – allows for outright government ownership of an entire industry.
    Our Constitution does not “allow for” an Air Force, never mind a Space-Cadet Force. I know that sounds snarky, but it’s meant to illustrate a serious point — or more accurately to pre-butt a predictable argument from “originalists”.
    Nowhere does The Constitution forbid The Government to engage in commerce, AFAIK. “Originalists” will rely on the principle that, while everything not explicitly forbidden is permitted to The People, it’s the other way for The Government: everything not explicitly permitted is forbidden. Okay, so how is the Air Force constitutional?
    As for how M4A would affect the insurance business, I don’t know. I do believe that when The Government built the Interstate Highway System, it drastically affected the railroad business. You don’t hear much about “railroad tycoons” any more. But railroads are still around and making a living from supplementing (rather than dominating) the rest of the transportation system. Did The People complain that they “like their railroad, and they should be able to keep it” outside of Petticoat Junction?
    Could The Government buy out the health insurance companies under Eminent Domain? It’s been known to buy other sorts of property that way.
    –TP

  868. russell: First, it’s not clear to me that the Constitution – our Constitution – allows for outright government ownership of an entire industry.
    Our Constitution does not “allow for” an Air Force, never mind a Space-Cadet Force. I know that sounds snarky, but it’s meant to illustrate a serious point — or more accurately to pre-butt a predictable argument from “originalists”.
    Nowhere does The Constitution forbid The Government to engage in commerce, AFAIK. “Originalists” will rely on the principle that, while everything not explicitly forbidden is permitted to The People, it’s the other way for The Government: everything not explicitly permitted is forbidden. Okay, so how is the Air Force constitutional?
    As for how M4A would affect the insurance business, I don’t know. I do believe that when The Government built the Interstate Highway System, it drastically affected the railroad business. You don’t hear much about “railroad tycoons” any more. But railroads are still around and making a living from supplementing (rather than dominating) the rest of the transportation system. Did The People complain that they “like their railroad, and they should be able to keep it” outside of Petticoat Junction?
    Could The Government buy out the health insurance companies under Eminent Domain? It’s been known to buy other sorts of property that way.
    –TP

  871. The word “explicitly” (as in, “explicitly permitted”) does not appear in the Tenth Amendment. There was a proposal to include the word “expressly” during the Congressional debates on the Bill of Rights, which was shot down by none other than James Madison. (Source: Akhil Amar, _America’s Constitution: A Biography_, Ch. 9)

  872. The word “explicitly” (as in, “explicitly permitted”) does not appear in the Tenth Amendment. There was a proposal to include the word “expressly” during the Congressional debates on the Bill of Rights, which was shot down by none other than James Madison. (Source: Akhil Amar, _America’s Constitution: A Biography_, Ch. 9)

  873. All fair points russell. As a young man I listened with great interest and some head nodding to the firebrand communist party leaders who were an integral part of the community I was in. I lived in as commune, we attended protests. We talked about creating a better world.
    Sanders speeches over the yearszdx his defense of communist dictators, his rationalization of their actions because a few good things were done, all could be straight from those speeches.
    He has, over the years, tempered some of his language but he is talking about rebuilding the US in that model. His movement is based on those same fiery indictments of capitalism. This is his moment to fill a void in the vision of America with an old vision, buffed up a little, espoused by Castro and Chavex in unequal parts.
    So I think he is intellectually a communist, dedicated to replacing our capitalist economy with at least a socialist one.

  874. All fair points russell. As a young man I listened with great interest and some head nodding to the firebrand communist party leaders who were an integral part of the community I was in. I lived in as commune, we attended protests. We talked about creating a better world.
    Sanders speeches over the yearszdx his defense of communist dictators, his rationalization of their actions because a few good things were done, all could be straight from those speeches.
    He has, over the years, tempered some of his language but he is talking about rebuilding the US in that model. His movement is based on those same fiery indictments of capitalism. This is his moment to fill a void in the vision of America with an old vision, buffed up a little, espoused by Castro and Chavex in unequal parts.
    So I think he is intellectually a communist, dedicated to replacing our capitalist economy with at least a socialist one.

  875. As a young man I listened with great interest and some head nodding to the firebrand communist party leaders who were an integral part of the community I was in. I lived in as commune, we attended protests. We talked about creating a better world.
    Sanders speeches over the yearszdx his defense of communist dictators, his rationalization of their actions because a few good things were done, all could be straight from those speeches.
    So you’re a communist, too.

  876. As a young man I listened with great interest and some head nodding to the firebrand communist party leaders who were an integral part of the community I was in. I lived in as commune, we attended protests. We talked about creating a better world.
    Sanders speeches over the yearszdx his defense of communist dictators, his rationalization of their actions because a few good things were done, all could be straight from those speeches.
    So you’re a communist, too.

  879. I could have been. Perhaps was. Certainly was not a capitalist. I’m just not nodding my head anymore. His speeches though, havent changed.

  880. I could have been. Perhaps was. Certainly was not a capitalist. I’m just not nodding my head anymore. His speeches though, havent changed.

  881. There are lots of examples of goods and services that began as privately efforts, and which were subsequently taken over by the public sector.
    The obvious example being roads. In the 1700s and early 1800s, roads were frequently privately created and charged tolls to use them. These days, of course, they are almost universally done by the government. (And us libertarian westerners get really outraged when we travel to the East Coast and are expected to pay tolls to drive them!)

  882. There are lots of examples of goods and services that began as privately efforts, and which were subsequently taken over by the public sector.
    The obvious example being roads. In the 1700s and early 1800s, roads were frequently privately created and charged tolls to use them. These days, of course, they are almost universally done by the government. (And us libertarian westerners get really outraged when we travel to the East Coast and are expected to pay tolls to drive them!)

  883. I’m not against M4A. I think there is a very, very strong argument for it. I also think putting it in place would be a pretty large logistical challenge, and highly disruptive, which is not to say it shouldn’t happen.
    That is, as I see it, the biggest argument for the “public option”: it’s a way to move gradually in the direction of M4A, and thus reduce the disruption. If the public option is attractive, we will end up at essentially M4A — OK maybe only 95% of the population, but essentially. While giving the industry time to wind down without crashing markets and throwing hundreds of thousands out of work at once.

  884. I’m not against M4A. I think there is a very, very strong argument for it. I also think putting it in place would be a pretty large logistical challenge, and highly disruptive, which is not to say it shouldn’t happen.
    That is, as I see it, the biggest argument for the “public option”: it’s a way to move gradually in the direction of M4A, and thus reduce the disruption. If the public option is attractive, we will end up at essentially M4A — OK maybe only 95% of the population, but essentially. While giving the industry time to wind down without crashing markets and throwing hundreds of thousands out of work at once.

  885. Our Constitution does not “allow for”…
    I definitely get that. All I’m saying is that M4A is going to face Constitutional challenges. There are traditions of interpreting our Constitution, of long standing, that would make a public payer to the exclusion of others problematic.
    I’m not advocating those points of view, just noting that they exist. They will be an impediment that will need to be gotten past in order for M4A to be a realistic option.
    many doctors and nurses will find other work or simply refuse to play ball.
    FWIW, I can introduce you to physicians who want to leave the practice because of many of the effects you describe, except the cause is consolidation.
    Medicine has been commodified, and not by the government.
    His movement is based on those same fiery indictments of capitalism.
    I am happy to supply as many fiery indictments of capitalism as will fit on this blog. I’m not a communist. I’m not even particularly a socialist.
    I’m pragmatic. Which is why I’m *also* not a capital-C capitalist.
    If we want to try to discuss this stuff, it would be useful to recognize that terms like capitalism, free-market, socialism, communism, etc., actually have meanings. Denotative meanings, often but not always fairly specific ones.
    People who are critical of capitalism are not automatically against markets. They are not automatically socialist. They are surely not automatically communist.
    Capitalism != free markets.
    Socialism != communism.
    Socialism -> public, i.e. government, ownership of the means of production.
    Communism -> common, i.e. common popular, ownership of the means of production, elimination of social classes, and ultimately of the state itself.
    Bernie is about lots of things, but I don’t think his agenda includes the eventual elimination of the state.
    🙂

  886. Our Constitution does not “allow for”…
    I definitely get that. All I’m saying is that M4A is going to face Constitutional challenges. There are traditions of interpreting our Constitution, of long standing, that would make a public payer to the exclusion of others problematic.
    I’m not advocating those points of view, just noting that they exist. They will be an impediment that will need to be gotten past in order for M4A to be a realistic option.
    many doctors and nurses will find other work or simply refuse to play ball.
    FWIW, I can introduce you to physicians who want to leave the practice because of many of the effects you describe, except the cause is consolidation.
    Medicine has been commodified, and not by the government.
    His movement is based on those same fiery indictments of capitalism.
    I am happy to supply as many fiery indictments of capitalism as will fit on this blog. I’m not a communist. I’m not even particularly a socialist.
    I’m pragmatic. Which is why I’m *also* not a capital-C capitalist.
    If we want to try to discuss this stuff, it would be useful to recognize that terms like capitalism, free-market, socialism, communism, etc., actually have meanings. Denotative meanings, often but not always fairly specific ones.
    People who are critical of capitalism are not automatically against markets. They are not automatically socialist. They are surely not automatically communist.
    Capitalism != free markets.
    Socialism != communism.
    Socialism -> public, i.e. government, ownership of the means of production.
    Communism -> common, i.e. common popular, ownership of the means of production, elimination of social classes, and ultimately of the state itself.
    Bernie is about lots of things, but I don’t think his agenda includes the eventual elimination of the state.
    🙂

  887. People who are critical of capitalism are not automatically against markets.
    And that’s before you get to the group (and I think it’s a fairly large one) who are just fine with capitalism. They just have issues with its implementation these past few decades. After all, we definitely had capitalism in the US in the 1950s. But had very different income and wealth distributions than we do now.

  888. People who are critical of capitalism are not automatically against markets.
    And that’s before you get to the group (and I think it’s a fairly large one) who are just fine with capitalism. They just have issues with its implementation these past few decades. After all, we definitely had capitalism in the US in the 1950s. But had very different income and wealth distributions than we do now.

  889. Well, in any practical sense, I think saying capitalism does not equal markets is splitting hairs.
    Not sure you can pretend otherwise.

  890. Well, in any practical sense, I think saying capitalism does not equal markets is splitting hairs.
    Not sure you can pretend otherwise.

  893. McKinney,
    If or when you have to choose between:
    1. a would-be communist POTUS who respects the separation of powers and the rule of law, even if he can’t get Congress to pass his proposals; and
    2. a would-be dictator POTUS who shits on the separation of powers, thinks the law doesn’t apply to him, and has the balls of many Congresscritters in his pocket,
    what do you see yourself doing?
    –TP

  894. McKinney,
    If or when you have to choose between:
    1. a would-be communist POTUS who respects the separation of powers and the rule of law, even if he can’t get Congress to pass his proposals; and
    2. a would-be dictator POTUS who shits on the separation of powers, thinks the law doesn’t apply to him, and has the balls of many Congresscritters in his pocket,
    what do you see yourself doing?
    –TP

  895. I think saying capitalism does not equal markets is splitting hairs.
    There’s actually a fairly body of thought and robust discussion that splits those hairs.
    The gist:
    capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production. it assumes that capital owners and labor are distinct parties, and it assumes that profit goes to owners. the primary goal of capitalism is the creation of wealth.
    free markets are about price setting by negotiation and agreement between willing actors. it makes no assumptions about who owns the means of production, or about the relationship between capital and labor as factors of production. the primary goal of free markets is the mutually beneficial exchange of value.
    both involve price setting by private actors, i.e. not by government.
    Most capitalist economies are also more or less free market economies, but the two are separable.
    I’m not making this up, you can look it up if you wish.

  896. I think saying capitalism does not equal markets is splitting hairs.
    There’s actually a fairly body of thought and robust discussion that splits those hairs.
    The gist:
    capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production. it assumes that capital owners and labor are distinct parties, and it assumes that profit goes to owners. the primary goal of capitalism is the creation of wealth.
    free markets are about price setting by negotiation and agreement between willing actors. it makes no assumptions about who owns the means of production, or about the relationship between capital and labor as factors of production. the primary goal of free markets is the mutually beneficial exchange of value.
    both involve price setting by private actors, i.e. not by government.
    Most capitalist economies are also more or less free market economies, but the two are separable.
    I’m not making this up, you can look it up if you wish.

  901. russell: capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production
    Which does not REQUIRE that “capital” be concentrated into as few hands as possible, as some Cato-and-Heritage-besotted defenders of “capitalism” sometimes seem to argue.
    “Private ownership of the means of production”, by itself, is not remotely incompatible with oligopoly or even monopoly. If oligopoly and monopoly happen to be the inevitable consequence of modern “capitalism”, well … some people are fine with that.
    –TP

  902. russell: capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production
    Which does not REQUIRE that “capital” be concentrated into as few hands as possible, as some Cato-and-Heritage-besotted defenders of “capitalism” sometimes seem to argue.
    “Private ownership of the means of production”, by itself, is not remotely incompatible with oligopoly or even monopoly. If oligopoly and monopoly happen to be the inevitable consequence of modern “capitalism”, well … some people are fine with that.
    –TP

  903. If folks can glibly call MFA “socialism” or “communism” then I should think calling any and all Republicans “fascist pieces of shit” has just as much validity….which is to say none.
    I should have mentioned before that this is, not surprisingly, something with which I am in total agreement.
    Now I need to check bobbyp’s link debunking (I hope) the arguments about Sanders’s unelectability. Obviously, the Corbyn comparison terrifies me. Here’s hoping it’s totally wrong.

  904. If folks can glibly call MFA “socialism” or “communism” then I should think calling any and all Republicans “fascist pieces of shit” has just as much validity….which is to say none.
    I should have mentioned before that this is, not surprisingly, something with which I am in total agreement.
    Now I need to check bobbyp’s link debunking (I hope) the arguments about Sanders’s unelectability. Obviously, the Corbyn comparison terrifies me. Here’s hoping it’s totally wrong.

  905. but essentially. While giving the industry time to wind down without crashing markets and throwing hundreds of thousands out of work at once.
    When I see this kind of stuff and the old “how are you going to pay for it?” chestnut, it’s almost enough to make me lose my faith in the goodness of human nature.
    U.S. trade deficits were directly responsible for the loss of millions of factory jobs during the first decade of this century. Now one can argue if these deficits were directly attributable to US public policy or “currency manipulation” by foreign actors, but that is irrelevant as doing nothing is also a policy choice.
    Touting the benefits of “free trade”, and egged on by the pundit class our two political parties engaged in the mutually assured hollowing out of a good deal of our factory infrastructure over a relatively brief span of time.
    Some of those chickens came home to roost in November, 2016.
    So crocodile tears for displaced health insurance employees does not faze me in the slightest.

  906. but essentially. While giving the industry time to wind down without crashing markets and throwing hundreds of thousands out of work at once.
    When I see this kind of stuff and the old “how are you going to pay for it?” chestnut, it’s almost enough to make me lose my faith in the goodness of human nature.
    U.S. trade deficits were directly responsible for the loss of millions of factory jobs during the first decade of this century. Now one can argue if these deficits were directly attributable to US public policy or “currency manipulation” by foreign actors, but that is irrelevant as doing nothing is also a policy choice.
    Touting the benefits of “free trade”, and egged on by the pundit class our two political parties engaged in the mutually assured hollowing out of a good deal of our factory infrastructure over a relatively brief span of time.
    Some of those chickens came home to roost in November, 2016.
    So crocodile tears for displaced health insurance employees does not faze me in the slightest.

  907. Bernie is about lots of things, but I don’t think his agenda includes the eventual elimination of the state.
    If only. 🙂

  908. Bernie is about lots of things, but I don’t think his agenda includes the eventual elimination of the state.
    If only. 🙂

  909. An interesting analysis of a couple of elements of US healthcare costs … something absent from pretty well every candidate’s plans.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014292120300337
    Consistent with prior work, we find direct costs of malpractice fines and insurance explain little of the high cost of healthcare in the US. However, the high private cost of medical education interacts with high malpractice risk in an interesting way: It leads doctors to (i) demand high wages and (ii) use excessive diagnostics to mitigate risk (“defensive medicine”). The agency problem that arises because patients cannot judge the efficacy of tests allows them to be over-prescribed. Together, these factors increase costs far more than direct malpractice costs. Specifically, physician salaries plus diagnostic tests comprise 4.04% of GDP in the US, compared to only 2.3% in the UK. The mechanisms emphasized in our model can largely explain the difference.
    4% of GDP is a lot.

  910. An interesting analysis of a couple of elements of US healthcare costs … something absent from pretty well every candidate’s plans.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014292120300337
    Consistent with prior work, we find direct costs of malpractice fines and insurance explain little of the high cost of healthcare in the US. However, the high private cost of medical education interacts with high malpractice risk in an interesting way: It leads doctors to (i) demand high wages and (ii) use excessive diagnostics to mitigate risk (“defensive medicine”). The agency problem that arises because patients cannot judge the efficacy of tests allows them to be over-prescribed. Together, these factors increase costs far more than direct malpractice costs. Specifically, physician salaries plus diagnostic tests comprise 4.04% of GDP in the US, compared to only 2.3% in the UK. The mechanisms emphasized in our model can largely explain the difference.
    4% of GDP is a lot.

  911. It is true, as far as it goes, that Sanders’s use of the “socialist” label for his New Deal left-liberalism is, all things being equal, suboptimal.
    A piece of understatement which is positively British, and none the more convincing for that.
    On his “compared to what” paragraph, his analysis of the other candidates’ flaws (particularly Biden’s) is certainly rather hard to argue with. But what you really cannot argue with is his final two sentences:
    And he’ll be running against someone with more liabilities than any Democrat. Don’t panic, just fight.

  912. It is true, as far as it goes, that Sanders’s use of the “socialist” label for his New Deal left-liberalism is, all things being equal, suboptimal.
    A piece of understatement which is positively British, and none the more convincing for that.
    On his “compared to what” paragraph, his analysis of the other candidates’ flaws (particularly Biden’s) is certainly rather hard to argue with. But what you really cannot argue with is his final two sentences:
    And he’ll be running against someone with more liabilities than any Democrat. Don’t panic, just fight.

  913. For context, that’s nearly a quarter of healthcare spending.
    In comparison, drugs costs (a hot political issue) are around 10%.

  914. For context, that’s nearly a quarter of healthcare spending.
    In comparison, drugs costs (a hot political issue) are around 10%.

  915. crocodile tears for displaced health insurance employees does not faze me in the slightest.
    If the concerns are being raised by people who were touting the other public policies you object to, that’s one thing. But some of us have real concerns on this point.
    I would also point out that the lost jobs in manufacturing that you refer to happened far more like the gradual losses that would (probably) result from the public option. As opposed to the abrupt losses that would result (in the unlikely event that it happens) from M4A going in straight off.
    We can probably find new jobs for everybody displaced. With time. But if we just nationalize all the health insurance companies (or otherwise abruptly bounce them out of business)? Which, after all, is what M4A would require.

  916. crocodile tears for displaced health insurance employees does not faze me in the slightest.
    If the concerns are being raised by people who were touting the other public policies you object to, that’s one thing. But some of us have real concerns on this point.
    I would also point out that the lost jobs in manufacturing that you refer to happened far more like the gradual losses that would (probably) result from the public option. As opposed to the abrupt losses that would result (in the unlikely event that it happens) from M4A going in straight off.
    We can probably find new jobs for everybody displaced. With time. But if we just nationalize all the health insurance companies (or otherwise abruptly bounce them out of business)? Which, after all, is what M4A would require.

  917. The ‘electability’ argument against Sanders is primarily um, not very good.
    Which article doesn’t actually address my points, other than the ‘socialism’ one with which it partly agrees.
    Debunking a comparison with Corbyn, which I never made, doesn’t add much. And I agree entirely that Sanders isn’t Corbyn; for a start he shows some evidence of being a competent administrator, and learning from his past mistakes.
    My point was that he’s a great deal more palatable to a plurality of the Democratic selectorate than he is likely to be to the national electorate.

  918. The ‘electability’ argument against Sanders is primarily um, not very good.
    Which article doesn’t actually address my points, other than the ‘socialism’ one with which it partly agrees.
    Debunking a comparison with Corbyn, which I never made, doesn’t add much. And I agree entirely that Sanders isn’t Corbyn; for a start he shows some evidence of being a competent administrator, and learning from his past mistakes.
    My point was that he’s a great deal more palatable to a plurality of the Democratic selectorate than he is likely to be to the national electorate.

  919. So crocodile tears for displaced health insurance employees does not faze me in the slightest.
    health insurance employees vote.

  920. So crocodile tears for displaced health insurance employees does not faze me in the slightest.
    health insurance employees vote.

  921. Karma:
    Trump loves to talk about the stock market rising.
    Monday, the Dow lost 1,000 points.
    Today, it lost another 900 points.
    The reason, concern about the impact of the coronavirus.
    Note that the folks charged with dealing with this would be the CDC and NIH — both of whose budgets Trump keeps trying to cut. Not to mention shrinking or eliminating various programs designed to evaluate possible disease problems, including pandemics like the coronavirus looks like becoming. If the markets keep diving, and especially if the rest of the economy gets hit hard as well, Trump is in big trouble.

  922. Karma:
    Trump loves to talk about the stock market rising.
    Monday, the Dow lost 1,000 points.
    Today, it lost another 900 points.
    The reason, concern about the impact of the coronavirus.
    Note that the folks charged with dealing with this would be the CDC and NIH — both of whose budgets Trump keeps trying to cut. Not to mention shrinking or eliminating various programs designed to evaluate possible disease problems, including pandemics like the coronavirus looks like becoming. If the markets keep diving, and especially if the rest of the economy gets hit hard as well, Trump is in big trouble.

  923. But if we just nationalize all the health insurance companies (or otherwise abruptly bounce them out of business)? Which, after all, is what M4A would require.
    Unless I am mistaken, MFA and various versions thereof do not call for “nationalizing” health insurance companies. They could still have a place in the health care markets (see Medicare supplemental plans), they might also be still around serving niche markets or just be highly regulated. Or eliminated alltogether. `
    “Nationalization” is a total misnomer.
    Thanks.

  924. But if we just nationalize all the health insurance companies (or otherwise abruptly bounce them out of business)? Which, after all, is what M4A would require.
    Unless I am mistaken, MFA and various versions thereof do not call for “nationalizing” health insurance companies. They could still have a place in the health care markets (see Medicare supplemental plans), they might also be still around serving niche markets or just be highly regulated. Or eliminated alltogether. `
    “Nationalization” is a total misnomer.
    Thanks.

  925. health insurance employees vote.
    So do underemployed ex-factory workers trying to live on shit wages. Maybe you have not noticed.

  926. health insurance employees vote.
    So do underemployed ex-factory workers trying to live on shit wages. Maybe you have not noticed.

  927. nigel,
    The LGM article addressed some of the chicken little “electability” arguments, not all of them.
    Yes, “socialism” is a scare word. And?
    Yes, Cuban Americans will most likely not vote for Bernie. But then again, they are reliable GOP voters to begin with.
    “How much will it cost”? That is essentially a non-serious “gotcha’ question. You know how much our health care costs will be over the next ten years? North of 30 trillion.
    1. Bernie is not yet even the candidate of the Democratic Party for the presidency in 2020. So perhaps chilling out a bit is in order.
    2. Last I looked, he still beats Trump in head to head polls, but I guess a young gay mayor with practically no experience will be much better, eh? Or is it “more electable”? Hard to keep track at times.
    Thanks.

  928. nigel,
    The LGM article addressed some of the chicken little “electability” arguments, not all of them.
    Yes, “socialism” is a scare word. And?
    Yes, Cuban Americans will most likely not vote for Bernie. But then again, they are reliable GOP voters to begin with.
    “How much will it cost”? That is essentially a non-serious “gotcha’ question. You know how much our health care costs will be over the next ten years? North of 30 trillion.
    1. Bernie is not yet even the candidate of the Democratic Party for the presidency in 2020. So perhaps chilling out a bit is in order.
    2. Last I looked, he still beats Trump in head to head polls, but I guess a young gay mayor with practically no experience will be much better, eh? Or is it “more electable”? Hard to keep track at times.
    Thanks.

  929. My point was that he’s a great deal more palatable to a plurality of the Democratic selectorate than he is likely to be to the national electorate.
    Well sure. But you can say the same thing about any of the current crop of those vying for the Dem nomination. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are making a classic “electability” argument, and I would counter that Lemieux pretty much shows such arguments to be not so good.
    It is what it is. FIGHT.

  930. My point was that he’s a great deal more palatable to a plurality of the Democratic selectorate than he is likely to be to the national electorate.
    Well sure. But you can say the same thing about any of the current crop of those vying for the Dem nomination. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are making a classic “electability” argument, and I would counter that Lemieux pretty much shows such arguments to be not so good.
    It is what it is. FIGHT.

  933. Pretty sure the claims about Taibbi’s alleged scumminess in Russia have been discredited by women who worked with him then, but I am not sure I want to spend time googling it.
    I share some of his views on Russiagate— I think it is a way for the intelligence community to “ meddle” in our elections. Of course with Trump I think he would be happy to take help from anyone, but that is a separate issue from saying the Russians actually colluded with him. They didn’t need to if they wanted to steal emails and post some absurd Facebook memes. The main effect in 2016 would have been the wikileaks revelations.
    And now of course the Russians are meddling in some unspecified manner to help Bernie and cast doubt on our institutions. Yeah, whatever. I am sure I have nothing but trust in our intelligence community. If people want to blame Russians for everything, fine. Bernie got in the act, suggesting that the worst Berniebros were really Russian bots. That’s the spirit.

  934. Pretty sure the claims about Taibbi’s alleged scumminess in Russia have been discredited by women who worked with him then, but I am not sure I want to spend time googling it.
    I share some of his views on Russiagate— I think it is a way for the intelligence community to “ meddle” in our elections. Of course with Trump I think he would be happy to take help from anyone, but that is a separate issue from saying the Russians actually colluded with him. They didn’t need to if they wanted to steal emails and post some absurd Facebook memes. The main effect in 2016 would have been the wikileaks revelations.
    And now of course the Russians are meddling in some unspecified manner to help Bernie and cast doubt on our institutions. Yeah, whatever. I am sure I have nothing but trust in our intelligence community. If people want to blame Russians for everything, fine. Bernie got in the act, suggesting that the worst Berniebros were really Russian bots. That’s the spirit.

  937. but that is a separate issue from saying the Russians actually colluded with him.
    This is hardcore denialism. Whatever. Not sure why it’s so important to you to prop up Russia and Trump. Russia is not to blame for “everything”. The intelligence community, working for the US, is not perfect. You seem to think the Russian intelligence community, and Vladimir Putin, as a KGB standard bearer, is just fine. I can’t dissuade you of that apparent belief.
    Putin is a bad guy, a bad intelligence actor from a bad country with a bad past. You may think he’s the same as John Brennan, but Russian. I disagree, but even if that’s the case, John Brennan isn’t all-powerful for life in this country. Putin is the tsar of Russia, and he’s not a benevolent one. He’s messing with us, and the results haven’t been good. Sure, he’s had a lot of useful idiots. They shall remain nameless.

  938. but that is a separate issue from saying the Russians actually colluded with him.
    This is hardcore denialism. Whatever. Not sure why it’s so important to you to prop up Russia and Trump. Russia is not to blame for “everything”. The intelligence community, working for the US, is not perfect. You seem to think the Russian intelligence community, and Vladimir Putin, as a KGB standard bearer, is just fine. I can’t dissuade you of that apparent belief.
    Putin is a bad guy, a bad intelligence actor from a bad country with a bad past. You may think he’s the same as John Brennan, but Russian. I disagree, but even if that’s the case, John Brennan isn’t all-powerful for life in this country. Putin is the tsar of Russia, and he’s not a benevolent one. He’s messing with us, and the results haven’t been good. Sure, he’s had a lot of useful idiots. They shall remain nameless.

  939. “ My point was that he’s a great deal more palatable to a plurality of the Democratic selectorate than he is likely to be to the national electorate.”
    I don’t think that is clear. I am also not denying it. It depends on whether the classic redbaiting tactics which will be used in tonight’s debate still have force.
    I was just telling an over confident Sanders supporting friend of mine in real life that I think this is happening too fast. I am supporting Sanders all the way and you can’t plan history I suppose, but what should have happened is that Nader ran a leftist Democratic primary campaign in 2000. He loses, like Jesse Jackson in the 80’s, but a leftist movement is born that begins to take over the Party similar to what happened in the Republican Party between Goldwater and Reagan.
    This Sanders thing was waiting to happen, but I think it needed more preparation, more lower level campaigns like AOC, though of course she was inspired by Sanders.
    Anyway, here we are. My friend is naturally and IMO absurdly optimistic, but I think it is a coin toss between a Sanders victory and McGovern.

  940. “ My point was that he’s a great deal more palatable to a plurality of the Democratic selectorate than he is likely to be to the national electorate.”
    I don’t think that is clear. I am also not denying it. It depends on whether the classic redbaiting tactics which will be used in tonight’s debate still have force.
    I was just telling an over confident Sanders supporting friend of mine in real life that I think this is happening too fast. I am supporting Sanders all the way and you can’t plan history I suppose, but what should have happened is that Nader ran a leftist Democratic primary campaign in 2000. He loses, like Jesse Jackson in the 80’s, but a leftist movement is born that begins to take over the Party similar to what happened in the Republican Party between Goldwater and Reagan.
    This Sanders thing was waiting to happen, but I think it needed more preparation, more lower level campaigns like AOC, though of course she was inspired by Sanders.
    Anyway, here we are. My friend is naturally and IMO absurdly optimistic, but I think it is a coin toss between a Sanders victory and McGovern.

  941. “ They shall remain nameless.”
    They are named “ Donald”.
    My position is that whatever Putin did is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the utter drivel that American spread. It is several orders of magnitude different. Hell, you should agree with me on this. Dud Russians spend massive amounts of money over the past several decades convincing Americans that government is always inefficient compared to the glories of the market? Did Russia plunge us into several stupid unending wars? Did Russia persuade the fossil fuel companies and Republicans to deny global warming, blame poor brown people for all our problems, put Rush Limbaugh on the air, create Fox News, etc… I haven’t even touched Democratic failures where we might clash. Well, actually I did, but the bulk of the above is mor Republican failings. Putin is a pimple compared to a giant cancerous tumor. I sound like Thullen here. And I am understating it. I think 99.9999 percent of our problems in America have nothing to do with Putin.
    And if you want to talk about foreign influence, I can think of a couple countries that have a lot more than Russia. But even with them homegrown Americans influence is vastly greater.
    I am allergic to the foreign witch hunt mentality. It is mostly bull and leads nowhere good and in the end will be used against the left. Though I guess it depends on what one considers left.

  942. “ They shall remain nameless.”
    They are named “ Donald”.
    My position is that whatever Putin did is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the utter drivel that American spread. It is several orders of magnitude different. Hell, you should agree with me on this. Dud Russians spend massive amounts of money over the past several decades convincing Americans that government is always inefficient compared to the glories of the market? Did Russia plunge us into several stupid unending wars? Did Russia persuade the fossil fuel companies and Republicans to deny global warming, blame poor brown people for all our problems, put Rush Limbaugh on the air, create Fox News, etc… I haven’t even touched Democratic failures where we might clash. Well, actually I did, but the bulk of the above is mor Republican failings. Putin is a pimple compared to a giant cancerous tumor. I sound like Thullen here. And I am understating it. I think 99.9999 percent of our problems in America have nothing to do with Putin.
    And if you want to talk about foreign influence, I can think of a couple countries that have a lot more than Russia. But even with them homegrown Americans influence is vastly greater.
    I am allergic to the foreign witch hunt mentality. It is mostly bull and leads nowhere good and in the end will be used against the left. Though I guess it depends on what one considers left.

  945. My friend is naturally and IMO absurdly optimistic, but I think it is a coin toss between a Sanders victory and McGovern.
    I think the way I’d phrase it is that it’s too early to tell which way the odds lean. But they could end up leaning either way. Eventually.
    With the caveat for those who aren’t inclined to worry that, unlike with McGovern, what happens at the is likely to have a stronger impact on the Senate and other races down the ballot. For good or ill.

  946. My friend is naturally and IMO absurdly optimistic, but I think it is a coin toss between a Sanders victory and McGovern.
    I think the way I’d phrase it is that it’s too early to tell which way the odds lean. But they could end up leaning either way. Eventually.
    With the caveat for those who aren’t inclined to worry that, unlike with McGovern, what happens at the is likely to have a stronger impact on the Senate and other races down the ballot. For good or ill.

  949. his defense of communist dictators, his rationalization of their actions because a few good things were done, all could be straight from those speeches.
    i’m not going to go too far in defending Sanders’ remarks, but i’ll just note that pointing out the few good things an overall terrible person has done shouldn’t be too unfamiliar to modern day Republicans. so maybe they should dial their selective outrage back a notch or two.

  950. his defense of communist dictators, his rationalization of their actions because a few good things were done, all could be straight from those speeches.
    i’m not going to go too far in defending Sanders’ remarks, but i’ll just note that pointing out the few good things an overall terrible person has done shouldn’t be too unfamiliar to modern day Republicans. so maybe they should dial their selective outrage back a notch or two.

  951. Donald- my angle on the Putin issue is that Fox and Sinclair and Clear Channel have certainly done their bit to destroy bipartisanship and radicalize the right. On this we are agreed.
    What Putin and the IRA have done is to take a very accurate measure of that outrage and direct it at the maximally effective systempunkts in our dysfunctional electoral system. Without them and Cambridge Analytica I think a lot of that outrage remains unrealized.
    They weren’t the magnitude, but they aimed the vector.

  952. Donald- my angle on the Putin issue is that Fox and Sinclair and Clear Channel have certainly done their bit to destroy bipartisanship and radicalize the right. On this we are agreed.
    What Putin and the IRA have done is to take a very accurate measure of that outrage and direct it at the maximally effective systempunkts in our dysfunctional electoral system. Without them and Cambridge Analytica I think a lot of that outrage remains unrealized.
    They weren’t the magnitude, but they aimed the vector.

  953. That seems pretty reasonable to me, nous (except I don’t know who the IRA are in this context). And similar with Brexit, and other anti-EU developments in Europe.

  954. That seems pretty reasonable to me, nous (except I don’t know who the IRA are in this context). And similar with Brexit, and other anti-EU developments in Europe.

  957. Obama said the pretty much the same thing about Castro.
    I despise Putin, but some Democrats are not doing themselves any favours by going on and on about Russia, while apparently being unable to learn from the defeat in 2016.

  958. Obama said the pretty much the same thing about Castro.
    I despise Putin, but some Democrats are not doing themselves any favours by going on and on about Russia, while apparently being unable to learn from the defeat in 2016.

  959. Regarding the “free market”, it is quite obvious that the US has drifted towards oligopoly for a long time now. And let’s not even get started on lobbying of politicians.

  960. Regarding the “free market”, it is quite obvious that the US has drifted towards oligopoly for a long time now. And let’s not even get started on lobbying of politicians.

  963. some Democrats are not doing themselves any favours by going on and on about Russia, while apparently being unable to learn from the defeat in 2016.
    One thing to learn is that we (and “we” means Democrats and people who are sympathetic to ousting Republicans) have to fight an international cyberwar instead of just an election battle. Why not go “on and on” about that since people apparently still don’t get it?

  964. some Democrats are not doing themselves any favours by going on and on about Russia, while apparently being unable to learn from the defeat in 2016.
    One thing to learn is that we (and “we” means Democrats and people who are sympathetic to ousting Republicans) have to fight an international cyberwar instead of just an election battle. Why not go “on and on” about that since people apparently still don’t get it?

  965. Emptywheel puts it well.
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/02/24/the-kinds-and-significance-of-russian-interference-2016-and-2020/
    That said, as with 2016, there are far more urgent concerns, and those concerns are entirely American.
    Republicans continue to seek out new ways to suppress the vote, including by throwing large swaths of voters off the rolls without adequate vetting. There are real concerns about voting machines, particularly in Georgia (and there are credible concerns about the reliability of GA’s tally in past elections). Republicans have continued to make polling locations less accessible in Democratic precincts than in Republican ones.
    Facebook refuses to police the accuracy of political ads, and Trump has flooded Facebook with disinformation.
    And Bloomberg’s efforts this year — which include a good deal of trolling and disinformation — are unprecedented in recent memory. His ad spending has undercut the ability to weigh candidates. And his personnel spending is increasing the costs for other candidates.
    Russian efforts to sway the vote are real. Denying them — as some of Bernie’s supporters are doing in ways that hurt the candidate — does not help. But, assuming DHS continues to work with localities to ensure the integrity of voting infrastructure, neither does overplaying them. Between now and November there’s far more reason to be concerned about American-funded disinformation and American money distorting our democratic process.

  966. Emptywheel puts it well.
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/02/24/the-kinds-and-significance-of-russian-interference-2016-and-2020/
    That said, as with 2016, there are far more urgent concerns, and those concerns are entirely American.
    Republicans continue to seek out new ways to suppress the vote, including by throwing large swaths of voters off the rolls without adequate vetting. There are real concerns about voting machines, particularly in Georgia (and there are credible concerns about the reliability of GA’s tally in past elections). Republicans have continued to make polling locations less accessible in Democratic precincts than in Republican ones.
    Facebook refuses to police the accuracy of political ads, and Trump has flooded Facebook with disinformation.
    And Bloomberg’s efforts this year — which include a good deal of trolling and disinformation — are unprecedented in recent memory. His ad spending has undercut the ability to weigh candidates. And his personnel spending is increasing the costs for other candidates.
    Russian efforts to sway the vote are real. Denying them — as some of Bernie’s supporters are doing in ways that hurt the candidate — does not help. But, assuming DHS continues to work with localities to ensure the integrity of voting infrastructure, neither does overplaying them. Between now and November there’s far more reason to be concerned about American-funded disinformation and American money distorting our democratic process.

  967. Paper ballots hand counted in public would take care of all concerns about literal hacking from any direction. So we get election results more slowly. Seems like a small price to pay.
    I started typing a long response last night about the Russia obsession and everything I think is wrong about it but may or may not get to it today.. plus I am not sure I am in the mood to get into a long argument.

  968. Paper ballots hand counted in public would take care of all concerns about literal hacking from any direction. So we get election results more slowly. Seems like a small price to pay.
    I started typing a long response last night about the Russia obsession and everything I think is wrong about it but may or may not get to it today.. plus I am not sure I am in the mood to get into a long argument.

  969. Between now and November there’s far more reason to be concerned about American-funded disinformation and American money distorting our democratic process.
    I’m not sure where she gets the stats on who is funding what. The NRA has been a pernicious, seemingly domestic threat for a long time. But we found out it was actually a Russian money laundering operation. How much of the Republican Party operates similarly? I think would be useful to know that, and pretending that it doesn’t matter is foolish.
    Whenever anyone utters the word “Republican” one should also ask who that really means. Republicans are suppressing the vote, yes, and they always have. But they have a lot more help now.
    Sure, we have other problems that are home grown, but if domestic money in our politics was all we had to worry about, we’d have a better focus on fixing it because presumably American oligarchs have some interest in a strong and vibrant America. Foreign oligarchs have no interest in that.

  970. Between now and November there’s far more reason to be concerned about American-funded disinformation and American money distorting our democratic process.
    I’m not sure where she gets the stats on who is funding what. The NRA has been a pernicious, seemingly domestic threat for a long time. But we found out it was actually a Russian money laundering operation. How much of the Republican Party operates similarly? I think would be useful to know that, and pretending that it doesn’t matter is foolish.
    Whenever anyone utters the word “Republican” one should also ask who that really means. Republicans are suppressing the vote, yes, and they always have. But they have a lot more help now.
    Sure, we have other problems that are home grown, but if domestic money in our politics was all we had to worry about, we’d have a better focus on fixing it because presumably American oligarchs have some interest in a strong and vibrant America. Foreign oligarchs have no interest in that.

  971. Paper ballots hand counted in public would take care of all concerns about literal hacking from any direction. So we get election results more slowly. Seems like a small price to pay.
    Virginia has paper ballots, and sound election day practices, but voting rolls can still be hacked. Obviously, Republicans have relied on voter suppression throughout my lifetime (Rehnquist got his start by doing it on the ground, and Roberts is his acolyte.) Republicans are now bankrolled by an international mob syndicate, and they are unwilling to enforce laws that prohibit their misconduct, so the problem is now way worse. Please quit waving it away. Thanks.

  972. Paper ballots hand counted in public would take care of all concerns about literal hacking from any direction. So we get election results more slowly. Seems like a small price to pay.
    Virginia has paper ballots, and sound election day practices, but voting rolls can still be hacked. Obviously, Republicans have relied on voter suppression throughout my lifetime (Rehnquist got his start by doing it on the ground, and Roberts is his acolyte.) Republicans are now bankrolled by an international mob syndicate, and they are unwilling to enforce laws that prohibit their misconduct, so the problem is now way worse. Please quit waving it away. Thanks.

  973. Nigel, as to the emptywheel link (again), thanks for that. I was interested to read the article, and some constructive criticism in the comments by Monica J Jerbi. The defensive and nasty way she was treated there is one reason that, even though emptywheel does a lot of good work, I have trouble taking her seriously. She and her followers have way too high a stake in her ego.

  974. Nigel, as to the emptywheel link (again), thanks for that. I was interested to read the article, and some constructive criticism in the comments by Monica J Jerbi. The defensive and nasty way she was treated there is one reason that, even though emptywheel does a lot of good work, I have trouble taking her seriously. She and her followers have way too high a stake in her ego.

  975. Whenever anyone utters the word “Republican” one should also ask who that really means. Republicans are suppressing the vote, yes, and they always have. But they have a lot more help now.
    Can’t argue with this either. It’s perfectly possible to blame both domestic and foreign subversion of the democratic process, and none of us (as far as I can tell) is really in a position to apportion percentages thereof. Each of us gets to decide how to weight it, and (as far as I can tell) no one of us gets to dictate that to any other.

  976. Whenever anyone utters the word “Republican” one should also ask who that really means. Republicans are suppressing the vote, yes, and they always have. But they have a lot more help now.
    Can’t argue with this either. It’s perfectly possible to blame both domestic and foreign subversion of the democratic process, and none of us (as far as I can tell) is really in a position to apportion percentages thereof. Each of us gets to decide how to weight it, and (as far as I can tell) no one of us gets to dictate that to any other.

  977. Between now and November there’s far more reason to be concerned about American-funded disinformation and American money distorting our democratic process.
    “far more” isn’t quite “only”
    and people can multitask.
    so let’s do that.

  978. Between now and November there’s far more reason to be concerned about American-funded disinformation and American money distorting our democratic process.
    “far more” isn’t quite “only”
    and people can multitask.
    so let’s do that.

  979. Donald: Paper ballots hand counted in public would take care of all concerns about literal hacking from any direction.
    Meddling with ballots is for amateur ratfuckers. Professional ratfuckers understand the difference between “votes” and “ballots”.
    Meddling with votes by means of disinformation and propaganda avoids the dangerous business of meddling with the ballots which are merely records of people’s votes.
    Disinformation and propaganda are also more effective: if you convince people to change their “vote”, they are (duh) convinced. They don’t feel cheated when you win; they feel vindicated.
    Cynics will point out that disinformation and propaganda are hard to distinguish from “electioneering” or “campaigning”. What’s the 1st Amendment for, if not to protect disinformation and propaganda around elections?
    Putin is a cynic. His American collaborators may, I grant you, be mere dupes.
    –TP

  980. Donald: Paper ballots hand counted in public would take care of all concerns about literal hacking from any direction.
    Meddling with ballots is for amateur ratfuckers. Professional ratfuckers understand the difference between “votes” and “ballots”.
    Meddling with votes by means of disinformation and propaganda avoids the dangerous business of meddling with the ballots which are merely records of people’s votes.
    Disinformation and propaganda are also more effective: if you convince people to change their “vote”, they are (duh) convinced. They don’t feel cheated when you win; they feel vindicated.
    Cynics will point out that disinformation and propaganda are hard to distinguish from “electioneering” or “campaigning”. What’s the 1st Amendment for, if not to protect disinformation and propaganda around elections?
    Putin is a cynic. His American collaborators may, I grant you, be mere dupes.
    –TP

  981. They weren’t the magnitude, but they aimed the vector.
    This. Russia is exploiting our dysfunction, even if they didn’t create it. They are heaping division and doubt upon division and doubt, not for the purposes of helping a particular side as an end unto itself, but as a means of weakening us generally and undermining democracy.
    Yes, some people in this country are making it much easier for them to do that, unwittingly or otherwise.

  982. They weren’t the magnitude, but they aimed the vector.
    This. Russia is exploiting our dysfunction, even if they didn’t create it. They are heaping division and doubt upon division and doubt, not for the purposes of helping a particular side as an end unto itself, but as a means of weakening us generally and undermining democracy.
    Yes, some people in this country are making it much easier for them to do that, unwittingly or otherwise.

  983. Our media ecology (broadcast/print/digital) and concentrations of wealth make it hard to fix anything wherever we focus our attention. Paper ballots fixes falsification of votes, but doesn’t fix the way that our social systems are making people more susceptible to propaganda. What we have is a 20 year crater in education of the sort that leads to better critical media literacy.
    Fixing that will take generations, assuming that we can do it.

  984. Our media ecology (broadcast/print/digital) and concentrations of wealth make it hard to fix anything wherever we focus our attention. Paper ballots fixes falsification of votes, but doesn’t fix the way that our social systems are making people more susceptible to propaganda. What we have is a 20 year crater in education of the sort that leads to better critical media literacy.
    Fixing that will take generations, assuming that we can do it.

  987. Speaking of critical media literacy, our propagandist-in-chief is blaming the media for falling stock prices over COVID-19.
    https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/trump-us-stock-market-commentary-furious-coronavirus-fake-news-media-2020-2-1028941762
    I will refer you to my comment yesterday with the Atlantic link from 2015. An excerpt from that link:

    Donald Trump objected to aid workers being allowed into the country and tweeted, “Ebola has been confirmed in NYC with officials frantically trying to find all of the people and things he had contact with. Obama’s fault.” He added in another tweet, “A TOTAL incompetent.”

  988. Speaking of critical media literacy, our propagandist-in-chief is blaming the media for falling stock prices over COVID-19.
    https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/trump-us-stock-market-commentary-furious-coronavirus-fake-news-media-2020-2-1028941762
    I will refer you to my comment yesterday with the Atlantic link from 2015. An excerpt from that link:

    Donald Trump objected to aid workers being allowed into the country and tweeted, “Ebola has been confirmed in NYC with officials frantically trying to find all of the people and things he had contact with. Obama’s fault.” He added in another tweet, “A TOTAL incompetent.”

  989. Republicans are suppressing the vote, yes, and they always have.
    Sorry to be persnickety, but no. Pre-Nixon and his “Southern strategy” (and even for some time thereafter) it was Democrats doing the voter suppression. It may well have been the same people doing it, but they were definitely not Republicans.
    I realize that may all have been before your lifetime. But I grew up seeing it, so it rankles.

  990. Republicans are suppressing the vote, yes, and they always have.
    Sorry to be persnickety, but no. Pre-Nixon and his “Southern strategy” (and even for some time thereafter) it was Democrats doing the voter suppression. It may well have been the same people doing it, but they were definitely not Republicans.
    I realize that may all have been before your lifetime. But I grew up seeing it, so it rankles.

  991. They are heaping division and doubt upon division and doubt, not for the purposes of helping a particular side as an end unto itself, but as a means of weakening us generally and undermining democracy. [emphasis added]
    Putin was as surprised as anyone when Trump actually won. He’d been aiming for four (or more) years of Trump-fueled division and complaints about voter fraud. What he got was that plus a huge bonus of Trump’s actions in office. As investments got, it was the kind of ROI that venture capitalists dream of.
    That’s also why he’s investing in Sanders as well this time. That way, whoever loses he’ll get enormous amounts of division and doubt. Actually, he can probably count on it if Sanders just loses the nomination. Sanders’ enthusiasts (the rabid enthusiasts, not those who merely support him) look to have the same mindset there as the Trump fanatics.

  992. They are heaping division and doubt upon division and doubt, not for the purposes of helping a particular side as an end unto itself, but as a means of weakening us generally and undermining democracy. [emphasis added]
    Putin was as surprised as anyone when Trump actually won. He’d been aiming for four (or more) years of Trump-fueled division and complaints about voter fraud. What he got was that plus a huge bonus of Trump’s actions in office. As investments got, it was the kind of ROI that venture capitalists dream of.
    That’s also why he’s investing in Sanders as well this time. That way, whoever loses he’ll get enormous amounts of division and doubt. Actually, he can probably count on it if Sanders just loses the nomination. Sanders’ enthusiasts (the rabid enthusiasts, not those who merely support him) look to have the same mindset there as the Trump fanatics.

  993. And there were poll taxes. Texas enacted a poll tax in 1902 that was $1.50 to $1.75. A lot of money at the time. And still not an inconsequential sum of money when I was a kid.

  994. And there were poll taxes. Texas enacted a poll tax in 1902 that was $1.50 to $1.75. A lot of money at the time. And still not an inconsequential sum of money when I was a kid.

  995. There were poll taxes everywhere. California’s agency which administers the state income tax is still called the Franchise Tax Board. I suppose that we should get credit for not sweeping history under the rug, but ouch!

  996. There were poll taxes everywhere. California’s agency which administers the state income tax is still called the Franchise Tax Board. I suppose that we should get credit for not sweeping history under the rug, but ouch!

  997. “California’s agency which administers the state income tax is still called the Franchise Tax Board.”
    Wait, they weren’t taxing McDonald’s franchises?
    Now I haz a sad.

  998. “California’s agency which administers the state income tax is still called the Franchise Tax Board.”
    Wait, they weren’t taxing McDonald’s franchises?
    Now I haz a sad.

  999. the Russia obsession
    To me, the Russia thing is less about Putin and more about Trump.
    Russia, and probably every other country on the planet, is probably going to make some effort to influence US elections. Through defensible means or not.
    What was unique in 2016 was the presence of a candidate who welcomed that, embrace it, and co-ordinated the actions of his campaign with theirs.
    Putin is a thug, but that should not be all the relevant for US electoral politics. It becomes relevant when his attempts at interference are welcomed.

  1000. the Russia obsession
    To me, the Russia thing is less about Putin and more about Trump.
    Russia, and probably every other country on the planet, is probably going to make some effort to influence US elections. Through defensible means or not.
    What was unique in 2016 was the presence of a candidate who welcomed that, embrace it, and co-ordinated the actions of his campaign with theirs.
    Putin is a thug, but that should not be all the relevant for US electoral politics. It becomes relevant when his attempts at interference are welcomed.

  1001. Wait, they weren’t taxing McDonald’s franchises?
    What do they teach them in the schools these days? (Obviously not that the ability to vote is called the “franchise”.) 😉 — because I’m sure russell, at least, does know that….

  1002. Wait, they weren’t taxing McDonald’s franchises?
    What do they teach them in the schools these days? (Obviously not that the ability to vote is called the “franchise”.) 😉 — because I’m sure russell, at least, does know that….

  1005. Wow, Charles was born before 1902.
    Anyone heard from LJ recently?
    I’m a capitalist. Here’s how you can tell. I have $30,000 in paper stock marke losses in the past three and half trading sessions.
    I voted for Warren in the primary. I’ll vote for Sanders in the general if I have to.
    Better being wiped out financially by a bog standard shouting socialist than a traitorous Putin-loving piece of traitorous dogshit ( more about that later in rebuttal of my friend Donald when I can get off the IPhone after Mardi Gras) who (trump) postulates (masturbates via mouth) that our virus will settle down come warm weather, against all, if conservatives will pardon my progressive French, scientific consensus, but who believes ( he believes like a fucking snake believes in slithering; kill him with a stick) global warming is a thing.
    Understand that trump’s deep conservative murderous state ordered the release of the Coronavirus in China, the better to disrupt American corporate supply chains, the better to close borders, the better to shut China down as a competitor, with the exception of Ivanka’s and hubby’s shithead shallow business interests, assholes, and now his conception of exceptional America has no exceptional immune system
    Wipe the Republican Party off the face of the Earth.
    Doesn’t matter what comes next, whatever it is can be fixed.
    THIS can’t be fixed.

  1006. Wow, Charles was born before 1902.
    Anyone heard from LJ recently?
    I’m a capitalist. Here’s how you can tell. I have $30,000 in paper stock marke losses in the past three and half trading sessions.
    I voted for Warren in the primary. I’ll vote for Sanders in the general if I have to.
    Better being wiped out financially by a bog standard shouting socialist than a traitorous Putin-loving piece of traitorous dogshit ( more about that later in rebuttal of my friend Donald when I can get off the IPhone after Mardi Gras) who (trump) postulates (masturbates via mouth) that our virus will settle down come warm weather, against all, if conservatives will pardon my progressive French, scientific consensus, but who believes ( he believes like a fucking snake believes in slithering; kill him with a stick) global warming is a thing.
    Understand that trump’s deep conservative murderous state ordered the release of the Coronavirus in China, the better to disrupt American corporate supply chains, the better to close borders, the better to shut China down as a competitor, with the exception of Ivanka’s and hubby’s shithead shallow business interests, assholes, and now his conception of exceptional America has no exceptional immune system
    Wipe the Republican Party off the face of the Earth.
    Doesn’t matter what comes next, whatever it is can be fixed.
    THIS can’t be fixed.

  1011. Truly sick vermin:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/read-trump-sues-nyt-for-defamation-alleging-bias-over-russia-op-ed
    A politician suing over an editorial opinion. thug vermin.
    It’s like John Wilkes Booth suing over the gunpowder residue on his waistcoat.
    Elect me President.
    There will be no suing.
    My Supreme Court will declare in motion bullets Free fucking speech.
    I will order on my first day The killing, butchering, and slaughtering of Fox News, Breitbart News, and Rush Limbaugh, and that’s only day one.
    I’ll bet if I entered the Democratic primary today on that narrow platform alone, I’d poll at 23% on the first day.
    America has no idea of the fury that is coming.
    The good people here would abstain, but I wanna win.

  1012. Truly sick vermin:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/read-trump-sues-nyt-for-defamation-alleging-bias-over-russia-op-ed
    A politician suing over an editorial opinion. thug vermin.
    It’s like John Wilkes Booth suing over the gunpowder residue on his waistcoat.
    Elect me President.
    There will be no suing.
    My Supreme Court will declare in motion bullets Free fucking speech.
    I will order on my first day The killing, butchering, and slaughtering of Fox News, Breitbart News, and Rush Limbaugh, and that’s only day one.
    I’ll bet if I entered the Democratic primary today on that narrow platform alone, I’d poll at 23% on the first day.
    America has no idea of the fury that is coming.
    The good people here would abstain, but I wanna win.

  1013. Just stumbled across this fun bit:

    Trump praised Modi’s record on religious tolerance

    Modi?!?!? Really? The mind boggles. And if there was any doubt ()not that there is that Trump is totally clueless about the rest of the world, that put paid to it.

  1014. Just stumbled across this fun bit:

    Trump praised Modi’s record on religious tolerance

    Modi?!?!? Really? The mind boggles. And if there was any doubt ()not that there is that Trump is totally clueless about the rest of the world, that put paid to it.

  1015. Anyone heard from LJ recently?
    Hi, just got back from Korea, on the last flight out of Taegu. (Seriously, the next day, the route was suspended and on the same day, it was announced that foreigners who visited Taegu would be banned from entering Japan. Which was performative, as there are no longer flights from Taegu to Japan AND there is no way Japan knows who was in Daegu) I’m trying to start a post about corona, hope it will be up this weekend.

  1016. Anyone heard from LJ recently?
    Hi, just got back from Korea, on the last flight out of Taegu. (Seriously, the next day, the route was suspended and on the same day, it was announced that foreigners who visited Taegu would be banned from entering Japan. Which was performative, as there are no longer flights from Taegu to Japan AND there is no way Japan knows who was in Daegu) I’m trying to start a post about corona, hope it will be up this weekend.

  1025. “ Disinformation and propaganda are also more effective: if you convince people to change their “vote”, they are (duh) convinced. They don’t feel cheated when you win; they feel vindicated.”
    This is identical to what the far right said during the Cold War, except that the far right had a much better case back then. I’m going to bed and have mixed feelings about getting into a fight with virtually everyone here, but I find this absurd,
    This deserves a full on rant, because I disagree with it in so many different ways I hardly know where to begin.
    Start with the fact that American lies are on a vastly greater scale. Go into detail. This would literally require several books. And I don’t just mean conservatives.
    Then talk about other countries that interfere here. And they get nothing even close to this much paranoia. There are a few in the Middle East I could rant about. I don’t, because I think the choice to spread their bull is made here. Nobody forces us to support immoral policies overseas. Only Russians have magical powers of that sort.
    Then move on to the fact that pointing out our flaws and sins is a good thing. Rightwingers made the same complaints about commie propaganda. Much of that propaganda was right. Liberals nowadays sound like a Mississippi sheriff circa 1964.
    And btw, the only place I can find a damning press conference of a State Department official lying about Yemen is on a YouTube clip put up by Russia Today. I don’t read or watch them much, but I would if there were more hours in the day. Yes they spread their slanted view. So does our press.
    Dividing us and sowing doubt about our institutions— that’s the usual claim. If that is what they are doing, it is a steep downhill battle. That story sells itself. I read that stupid intelligence report back in 2017 — again, rightwingers in the Cold War had a much stronger case to make back then and if I weren’t going to bed I would put on my rightwing empathy simulator cap and make it.
    The wikileaks emails had an effect because they were newsworthy. Most of the Facebook ads could only have effected people who were human examples of the butterfly effect — if you were swayed by that crap then you were swayed by every random nonsense that met your eye.
    We have free speech because we ostensibly believe John Stuart Mill was right. If people are actually worried about Jesus armwrestling Satan memes, then America might as well call it a day.
    I am of course wasting my time. The gap between my position and what most liberals believe on this can’t be bridged. I am just pointing it out.

  1026. “ Disinformation and propaganda are also more effective: if you convince people to change their “vote”, they are (duh) convinced. They don’t feel cheated when you win; they feel vindicated.”
    This is identical to what the far right said during the Cold War, except that the far right had a much better case back then. I’m going to bed and have mixed feelings about getting into a fight with virtually everyone here, but I find this absurd,
    This deserves a full on rant, because I disagree with it in so many different ways I hardly know where to begin.
    Start with the fact that American lies are on a vastly greater scale. Go into detail. This would literally require several books. And I don’t just mean conservatives.
    Then talk about other countries that interfere here. And they get nothing even close to this much paranoia. There are a few in the Middle East I could rant about. I don’t, because I think the choice to spread their bull is made here. Nobody forces us to support immoral policies overseas. Only Russians have magical powers of that sort.
    Then move on to the fact that pointing out our flaws and sins is a good thing. Rightwingers made the same complaints about commie propaganda. Much of that propaganda was right. Liberals nowadays sound like a Mississippi sheriff circa 1964.
    And btw, the only place I can find a damning press conference of a State Department official lying about Yemen is on a YouTube clip put up by Russia Today. I don’t read or watch them much, but I would if there were more hours in the day. Yes they spread their slanted view. So does our press.
    Dividing us and sowing doubt about our institutions— that’s the usual claim. If that is what they are doing, it is a steep downhill battle. That story sells itself. I read that stupid intelligence report back in 2017 — again, rightwingers in the Cold War had a much stronger case to make back then and if I weren’t going to bed I would put on my rightwing empathy simulator cap and make it.
    The wikileaks emails had an effect because they were newsworthy. Most of the Facebook ads could only have effected people who were human examples of the butterfly effect — if you were swayed by that crap then you were swayed by every random nonsense that met your eye.
    We have free speech because we ostensibly believe John Stuart Mill was right. If people are actually worried about Jesus armwrestling Satan memes, then America might as well call it a day.
    I am of course wasting my time. The gap between my position and what most liberals believe on this can’t be bridged. I am just pointing it out.

  1027. Donald – there really isn’t that much of a gap between what you describe as your opinion of US foreign policy malfeasance and my own. Seriously. We have been bad faith actors for years and have no moral high ground. I’m not looking for moral high ground.
    And, among other things, I have done a lot of reading on propaganda. I have a Ph.D. in rhetoric and have published about military propaganda.
    Where we diverge is in two particulars.
    First, I am more worried than you are about the use of psychographic targeting. The propaganda of the Cold War was crude and relied upon either personal contact or on mass media. Today we have private tech corporations assembling huge databases of personal information and user habits that put the Stasi to shame. And there’s really nothing that prevents anyone with the resources from making use of that data if they can buy access. The degree to which this data can be wielded effectively to influence voting or purchasing power is not precisely known, but it does allow a great deal more precision in targeting and fine tuning ones propaganda and even a little of this can have a ripple effect.
    Second, I think that we have a much more clear understanding of how fear and implicit bias can be used to short circuit critical reasoning. There is more science behind the art of propaganda today, and that is made more effective by being able to access the psychometric data of millions of people and present them with your messages wherever they are throughout their waking day.
    Again, that was something that could only be achieved during the Cold War at the mass media level with far less specific and targeted propaganda or at the personal level with a great deal of investment in personnel and a fair bit of exposure.
    Cambridge Analytics, Facebook, and Experian are certainly overselling the effectiveness of what they offer their advertisers, but what they are selling ain’t nothing.

  1028. Donald – there really isn’t that much of a gap between what you describe as your opinion of US foreign policy malfeasance and my own. Seriously. We have been bad faith actors for years and have no moral high ground. I’m not looking for moral high ground.
    And, among other things, I have done a lot of reading on propaganda. I have a Ph.D. in rhetoric and have published about military propaganda.
    Where we diverge is in two particulars.
    First, I am more worried than you are about the use of psychographic targeting. The propaganda of the Cold War was crude and relied upon either personal contact or on mass media. Today we have private tech corporations assembling huge databases of personal information and user habits that put the Stasi to shame. And there’s really nothing that prevents anyone with the resources from making use of that data if they can buy access. The degree to which this data can be wielded effectively to influence voting or purchasing power is not precisely known, but it does allow a great deal more precision in targeting and fine tuning ones propaganda and even a little of this can have a ripple effect.
    Second, I think that we have a much more clear understanding of how fear and implicit bias can be used to short circuit critical reasoning. There is more science behind the art of propaganda today, and that is made more effective by being able to access the psychometric data of millions of people and present them with your messages wherever they are throughout their waking day.
    Again, that was something that could only be achieved during the Cold War at the mass media level with far less specific and targeted propaganda or at the personal level with a great deal of investment in personnel and a fair bit of exposure.
    Cambridge Analytics, Facebook, and Experian are certainly overselling the effectiveness of what they offer their advertisers, but what they are selling ain’t nothing.

  1029. There are a few in the Middle East I could rant about. I don’t, because I think the choice to spread their bull is made here.
    Donald, did you mean this, or is there a “not” missing? It seems to me that pretty much all of us agree with you on Saudi Arabia (Yemen-related and otherwise), and even to quite an extent on Israel. Have I missed something?

  1030. There are a few in the Middle East I could rant about. I don’t, because I think the choice to spread their bull is made here.
    Donald, did you mean this, or is there a “not” missing? It seems to me that pretty much all of us agree with you on Saudi Arabia (Yemen-related and otherwise), and even to quite an extent on Israel. Have I missed something?

  1031. The wikileaks emails had an effect because they were newsworthy.
    I wonder whether Donald would think my private information is newsworthy, or whether I would think his private information is newsworthy, and whether that makes stealing, publishing, and weaponizing it okay.
    I am of course wasting my time. The gap between my position and what most liberals believe on this can’t be bridged.
    Donald is truly committed to the “USA is responsible for all bad things that happen in the world” mindset. I have no interest in bridging the gap between us on that.

  1032. The wikileaks emails had an effect because they were newsworthy.
    I wonder whether Donald would think my private information is newsworthy, or whether I would think his private information is newsworthy, and whether that makes stealing, publishing, and weaponizing it okay.
    I am of course wasting my time. The gap between my position and what most liberals believe on this can’t be bridged.
    Donald is truly committed to the “USA is responsible for all bad things that happen in the world” mindset. I have no interest in bridging the gap between us on that.

  1033. The “climategate” hacked emails shows, pretty clearly, that it really doesn’t matter who you are; if the RWNJs think they can score political points by trashing you, they will.
    They’ll “investigate” your countertops, if necessary. Shoot on sight.

  1034. The “climategate” hacked emails shows, pretty clearly, that it really doesn’t matter who you are; if the RWNJs think they can score political points by trashing you, they will.
    They’ll “investigate” your countertops, if necessary. Shoot on sight.

  1037. https://twitter.com/CoronaBeerus/status/1232880224330608641
    Rest easy.
    The scum who hate government, who want their taxes eliminated because not to do so is slavery and theft, who have been telling us for 50 years that government is incompetent, inefficient, and over-priced, that federal employees are in it for the long lunch breaks, that its functions must be cut to the bone and its funding eliminated, that it is socialist, communist, and gives it all away to the niggers and the fags and the greasy wetbacks, these very filth and their vermin government are on the job, it’s here to protect you now.
    Here this, if these always wrong conservative government-hating subhumans tell you to wash your hands, do the opposite.
    If they tell you to use the new vaccine to protect your children against the coronavirus, run the other way and cough on your republican neighbors.
    They can’t be right.
    They are the government.

  1038. https://twitter.com/CoronaBeerus/status/1232880224330608641
    Rest easy.
    The scum who hate government, who want their taxes eliminated because not to do so is slavery and theft, who have been telling us for 50 years that government is incompetent, inefficient, and over-priced, that federal employees are in it for the long lunch breaks, that its functions must be cut to the bone and its funding eliminated, that it is socialist, communist, and gives it all away to the niggers and the fags and the greasy wetbacks, these very filth and their vermin government are on the job, it’s here to protect you now.
    Here this, if these always wrong conservative government-hating subhumans tell you to wash your hands, do the opposite.
    If they tell you to use the new vaccine to protect your children against the coronavirus, run the other way and cough on your republican neighbors.
    They can’t be right.
    They are the government.

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