I can’t believe this is happening to me….

by

by Ugh

Between my sons playing Little League and the Nationals, I think I've, I, er, I may have become a, uh, baseball fa-

NO I CAN'T SAY IT!!  

Over to you, Mr. J. T.

🙂

Open thread (naturally).

1,306 thoughts on “I can’t believe this is happening to me….”

  3. We were discussing the route to 100% renewables recently.
    One of the questions was on intermittency, and the problem of energy storage. This technology is part of the solution, and pretty well immediately deliverable:
    https://www.highviewpower.com/news_announcement/highview-power-unveils-cryobattery-worlds-first-giga-scale-cryogenic-battery/
    They are building a 50MW pilot plant in the UK.
    https://www.highviewpower.com/news_announcement/highview-power-to-develop-multiple-cryogenic-energy-storage-facilities-in-the-uk-and-to-build-europes-largest-storage-system/
    It’s easily scalable in multiples of 50MW – and if you were to site it alongside a thermal power plant which dumps waste heat (nuclear for preference, as it’s non-carbon, and always on), the waste heat could be used to improve the efficiency of the power regeneration.

  4. We were discussing the route to 100% renewables recently.
    One of the questions was on intermittency, and the problem of energy storage. This technology is part of the solution, and pretty well immediately deliverable:
    https://www.highviewpower.com/news_announcement/highview-power-unveils-cryobattery-worlds-first-giga-scale-cryogenic-battery/
    They are building a 50MW pilot plant in the UK.
    https://www.highviewpower.com/news_announcement/highview-power-to-develop-multiple-cryogenic-energy-storage-facilities-in-the-uk-and-to-build-europes-largest-storage-system/
    It’s easily scalable in multiples of 50MW – and if you were to site it alongside a thermal power plant which dumps waste heat (nuclear for preference, as it’s non-carbon, and always on), the waste heat could be used to improve the efficiency of the power regeneration.

  5. Nigel, allow me to invite you to write something for the front page about this stuff. You consistently bring information I, at least, was unaware of.

  6. Nigel, allow me to invite you to write something for the front page about this stuff. You consistently bring information I, at least, was unaware of.

  7. Open thread, so:
    I have just read an account of Bill Taylor’s testimony to congress on the Ukraine affair. As I suspected when I first read the exchange of texts between Sondland and Taylor on the hold-up of the aid, and the quid pro quo, I think this is the real silver bullet. And as a small side issue from part of the testimony, to echo something lj said recently, you know things are getting deeply weird when John Bolton starts looking like the good guy…

  8. Open thread, so:
    I have just read an account of Bill Taylor’s testimony to congress on the Ukraine affair. As I suspected when I first read the exchange of texts between Sondland and Taylor on the hold-up of the aid, and the quid pro quo, I think this is the real silver bullet. And as a small side issue from part of the testimony, to echo something lj said recently, you know things are getting deeply weird when John Bolton starts looking like the good guy…

  9. Aha!
    This admission is like reading Donald in the other thread (he, the longest-running tied-score … neither … both .. sides, bullpens exhausted, all pinch hitters used and showered, can’t seem to score the winning, deciding run as we go into the bottom of the 5467th inning … political baseball game in history) finally plucked out of the stands and pinch-running for the Democratic team and stealing home (admitting he’ll vote for the Democrat, whomever she is in 2020) with a head-first slide for the win!
    Game Over! Cubs Win, Cubs Win!
    That’s a joke, Donald.
    But, ugh, what already? What!?
    “… baseball fa-”
    fa ….ther?
    fa ….natic?
    fa ….r, a long,long way to run?
    fa ….rrago?
    fa ….twa?
    fa ….csimile?
    fa ….scist?
    fa ….bulist?
    fa ….ntods?
    So, let me ask a couple of questions about this, your way-overdue, but inevitable succumbing to the beautiful, mythic charms of the game (Game? Way of Life, more like) of Baseball.
    Do you, as a Dad, at your kids’ games (I take it they are still little guys) find yourself coming out of your lawn chair on the sidelines, beverage tossed aloft, and bellowing Dad approval (only approval, of course; I hate those barking, pacing Dads constantly riding their own kids for every single move they make or don’t make on the field), when, by some near convergence of the baseball (small “g”) gods and your kids’ realization about how the game is played, the ball, say, somehow lands in your kid’s glove AND they, newly formed baseball synapses firing for the first time, also think to double the runner off second?
    Have one of your kids beseeched you, diplomatically, natch, that while they sure appreciate your enthusiasm on their behalf at their games, could you maybe move your lawn chair to the far end of the parking lot, still within sight of the field, but out of their hearing?
    Have you volunteered to coach third base while your kids’ team is at bat, and when one of them manages to round third, heading in the general direction of home plate, have an irresistible impulse to pick the kid up from under his arms and run .. carrying him to home base for the score?
    Do you, kind of without noticing, find yourself wearing your old baseball cleats to your kid’s games, perhaps stowing your old baseball glove in the trunk of the car, just in case, and perhaps in a kind of Walter Mitty reverie, anticipating that their coach late in the game might just give YOU the high sign from the dugout late in the game to come in and take the mound to close out the final three outs in the final inning for the win?
    Against kids barely half your size? Hmmmm?
    Happily, I had my own baseball games to worry about, but I could see other Dads doing this sort of thing when my son was playing.
    When you watch a major league baseball game, since you are now a fa fa FA fa, fa fa FA fa, are your finally appreciating those time-consuming downtime moments during the game when say, the pitching coach and the entire infield and catcher converge on the mound to consult with the pitcher about where they are going to dinner after the game, or when, between every pitch, the batter steps out of the box to spit, scratch, adjust every article of clothing, stare at the barrel of the bat, and do some desultory landscaping, perhaps some weeding, in the dirt around home plate?
    No?
    Well, you still have to earn that missing “n” then, I venture.
    %-)
    After all, why are you in such a hurry to have the game end and go home?
    I’m with you, though, on the interminable commercial breaks during baseball broadcasts.

  10. Aha!
    This admission is like reading Donald in the other thread (he, the longest-running tied-score … neither … both .. sides, bullpens exhausted, all pinch hitters used and showered, can’t seem to score the winning, deciding run as we go into the bottom of the 5467th inning … political baseball game in history) finally plucked out of the stands and pinch-running for the Democratic team and stealing home (admitting he’ll vote for the Democrat, whomever she is in 2020) with a head-first slide for the win!
    Game Over! Cubs Win, Cubs Win!
    That’s a joke, Donald.
    But, ugh, what already? What!?
    “… baseball fa-”
    fa ….ther?
    fa ….natic?
    fa ….r, a long,long way to run?
    fa ….rrago?
    fa ….twa?
    fa ….csimile?
    fa ….scist?
    fa ….bulist?
    fa ….ntods?
    So, let me ask a couple of questions about this, your way-overdue, but inevitable succumbing to the beautiful, mythic charms of the game (Game? Way of Life, more like) of Baseball.
    Do you, as a Dad, at your kids’ games (I take it they are still little guys) find yourself coming out of your lawn chair on the sidelines, beverage tossed aloft, and bellowing Dad approval (only approval, of course; I hate those barking, pacing Dads constantly riding their own kids for every single move they make or don’t make on the field), when, by some near convergence of the baseball (small “g”) gods and your kids’ realization about how the game is played, the ball, say, somehow lands in your kid’s glove AND they, newly formed baseball synapses firing for the first time, also think to double the runner off second?
    Have one of your kids beseeched you, diplomatically, natch, that while they sure appreciate your enthusiasm on their behalf at their games, could you maybe move your lawn chair to the far end of the parking lot, still within sight of the field, but out of their hearing?
    Have you volunteered to coach third base while your kids’ team is at bat, and when one of them manages to round third, heading in the general direction of home plate, have an irresistible impulse to pick the kid up from under his arms and run .. carrying him to home base for the score?
    Do you, kind of without noticing, find yourself wearing your old baseball cleats to your kid’s games, perhaps stowing your old baseball glove in the trunk of the car, just in case, and perhaps in a kind of Walter Mitty reverie, anticipating that their coach late in the game might just give YOU the high sign from the dugout late in the game to come in and take the mound to close out the final three outs in the final inning for the win?
    Against kids barely half your size? Hmmmm?
    Happily, I had my own baseball games to worry about, but I could see other Dads doing this sort of thing when my son was playing.
    When you watch a major league baseball game, since you are now a fa fa FA fa, fa fa FA fa, are your finally appreciating those time-consuming downtime moments during the game when say, the pitching coach and the entire infield and catcher converge on the mound to consult with the pitcher about where they are going to dinner after the game, or when, between every pitch, the batter steps out of the box to spit, scratch, adjust every article of clothing, stare at the barrel of the bat, and do some desultory landscaping, perhaps some weeding, in the dirt around home plate?
    No?
    Well, you still have to earn that missing “n” then, I venture.
    %-)
    After all, why are you in such a hurry to have the game end and go home?
    I’m with you, though, on the interminable commercial breaks during baseball broadcasts.

  11. Nationals in 7.
    But if it’s Astros in 7, then good for us, because we get 7 before we have to wait all the way to April Fool’s Day for the Beatles to reunite.

  12. Nationals in 7.
    But if it’s Astros in 7, then good for us, because we get 7 before we have to wait all the way to April Fool’s Day for the Beatles to reunite.

  13. I have just read an account of Bill Taylor’s testimony to congress on the Ukraine affair.
    Bill Taylor, the unelected radical bureaucrat who is in cahoots with far-left lawmakers? All lies!

  14. I have just read an account of Bill Taylor’s testimony to congress on the Ukraine affair.
    Bill Taylor, the unelected radical bureaucrat who is in cahoots with far-left lawmakers? All lies!

  17. Bill Taylor, the unelected radical bureaucrat who is in cahoots with far-left lawmakers? All lies!
    Yup, those career diplomats are well-known as radical leftists…

  18. Bill Taylor, the unelected radical bureaucrat who is in cahoots with far-left lawmakers? All lies!
    Yup, those career diplomats are well-known as radical leftists…

  19. JDT…the first writing of yours I ever saw was about baseball, and I had forgotten how miraculous and wonderful it is (your writing about baseball, that is, not necessarily baseball itself ;-).
    On that earlier occasion I laughed from start to finish, but this is in a different key, and just as good.
    Thanks for a great start to my day.

  20. JDT…the first writing of yours I ever saw was about baseball, and I had forgotten how miraculous and wonderful it is (your writing about baseball, that is, not necessarily baseball itself ;-).
    On that earlier occasion I laughed from start to finish, but this is in a different key, and just as good.
    Thanks for a great start to my day.

  21. In a rational world, Bill Taylor’s testimony would see the last remaining Republican hold-outs abandoning the loathsome thing in the White House.
    That is not the world we live in.
    However, there must be some prospect of more and more rats defecting.

  22. In a rational world, Bill Taylor’s testimony would see the last remaining Republican hold-outs abandoning the loathsome thing in the White House.
    That is not the world we live in.
    However, there must be some prospect of more and more rats defecting.

  23. I’m with you, though, on the interminable commercial breaks during baseball broadcasts.
    That’s what comes of no longer being in school. I always found (back in college) that the amount of time between something actually happening was really close to the time it took to do one problem in my engineering problem sets. Stop and listen, then on to the next problem.
    It was like it was deliberately designed that way. But I expect it was just another example of how awesome the universe is.

  24. I’m with you, though, on the interminable commercial breaks during baseball broadcasts.
    That’s what comes of no longer being in school. I always found (back in college) that the amount of time between something actually happening was really close to the time it took to do one problem in my engineering problem sets. Stop and listen, then on to the next problem.
    It was like it was deliberately designed that way. But I expect it was just another example of how awesome the universe is.

  25. In a rational world, Bill Taylor’s testimony would see the last remaining Republican hold-outs abandoning the loathsome thing in the White House.
    Well it will be amusing to see what new contortion Senator Graham comes up with. Now that his “If you could show me that, you know, Trump actually was engaging in a quid pro quo, outside the phone call, that would be very disturbing” threshold has been met. (Emphasis added. Not entirely sure why the phone call’s quid pro quo, which he acknowledges, wasn’t sufficient…)
    I have no doubt he’ll try. Or at least decide that “very disturbing” isn’t enough for removal. But the contortions that he and his buddies are being reduced to are getting quite hilarious.

  26. In a rational world, Bill Taylor’s testimony would see the last remaining Republican hold-outs abandoning the loathsome thing in the White House.
    Well it will be amusing to see what new contortion Senator Graham comes up with. Now that his “If you could show me that, you know, Trump actually was engaging in a quid pro quo, outside the phone call, that would be very disturbing” threshold has been met. (Emphasis added. Not entirely sure why the phone call’s quid pro quo, which he acknowledges, wasn’t sufficient…)
    I have no doubt he’ll try. Or at least decide that “very disturbing” isn’t enough for removal. But the contortions that he and his buddies are being reduced to are getting quite hilarious.

  27. Then again, it’s possible that Graham’s statement was in anticipation of the need to change course without looking like a flip-flopper. Giving himself an emergency exit from Trumpland, as it were.

  28. Then again, it’s possible that Graham’s statement was in anticipation of the need to change course without looking like a flip-flopper. Giving himself an emergency exit from Trumpland, as it were.

  29. Giving himself an emergency exit from Trumpland, as it were.
    I’d like to think he was preparing for what he ought to know by now is inevitable. But I’m not sure I can see him with even that tiny bit of moral fiber lurking somewhere.

  30. Giving himself an emergency exit from Trumpland, as it were.
    I’d like to think he was preparing for what he ought to know by now is inevitable. But I’m not sure I can see him with even that tiny bit of moral fiber lurking somewhere.

  31. Not entirely sure why the phone call’s quid pro quo, which he acknowledges, wasn’t sufficient
    i suspect it’s because that particular bit of evidence has already been totally dismissed by the GOP base.
    the GOP Senate isn’t going to budge on what’s here now. what we, and they, already know is thoroughly damning. but they’ve committed to ignoring it.
    they know the base will absolutely never let the Dems be shown to be right about something this big. and they’re all amoral cowards. so, they’ve signed up for months of arguing the implausible to defend the indefensible, just to avoid having to deal with the Trump Cult at the ballot box.
    profiles in courage.

  32. Not entirely sure why the phone call’s quid pro quo, which he acknowledges, wasn’t sufficient
    i suspect it’s because that particular bit of evidence has already been totally dismissed by the GOP base.
    the GOP Senate isn’t going to budge on what’s here now. what we, and they, already know is thoroughly damning. but they’ve committed to ignoring it.
    they know the base will absolutely never let the Dems be shown to be right about something this big. and they’re all amoral cowards. so, they’ve signed up for months of arguing the implausible to defend the indefensible, just to avoid having to deal with the Trump Cult at the ballot box.
    profiles in courage.

  35. Graham’s current line is: “Why does the Ukrainian president not come forth?”
    Do you feel threatened by the guy holding a loaded gun to your head? The guy who also kidnapped your family and wrote you a letter that he will feed them to ravenous dogs, if you say anything negative about him? No? Then I do not know what all the fuss is about. The gentleman is just excercising his 2nd amendment rights (and yesterday exercised his 1st by donating a nice sum of money to my campaign).

  36. Graham’s current line is: “Why does the Ukrainian president not come forth?”
    Do you feel threatened by the guy holding a loaded gun to your head? The guy who also kidnapped your family and wrote you a letter that he will feed them to ravenous dogs, if you say anything negative about him? No? Then I do not know what all the fuss is about. The gentleman is just excercising his 2nd amendment rights (and yesterday exercised his 1st by donating a nice sum of money to my campaign).

  37. So much for my speculation:
    heh. Graham ain’t gonna break for no mere evidence.
    GOP 202: the implausible in defense of the indefensible.

  38. So much for my speculation:
    heh. Graham ain’t gonna break for no mere evidence.
    GOP 202: the implausible in defense of the indefensible.

  39. profiles in courage.
    I thought this was the last best word.
    But the implausible in defense of the indefensible has to be a contender.

  40. profiles in courage.
    I thought this was the last best word.
    But the implausible in defense of the indefensible has to be a contender.

  45. You can’t make this stuff up.

    President Trump’s private attorney said Wednesday that the president could not be investigated or prosecuted as long as he is in the White House, even for shooting someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue.
    …
    “Local authorities couldn’t investigate? They couldn’t do anything about it?” [Judge Denny Chin] asked, adding, “Nothing could be done? That is your position?”
    “That is correct,” Consovoy answered

    Well, at least now we know why Trump figures he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Avenue and it wouldn’t matter.

  46. You can’t make this stuff up.

    President Trump’s private attorney said Wednesday that the president could not be investigated or prosecuted as long as he is in the White House, even for shooting someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue.
    …
    “Local authorities couldn’t investigate? They couldn’t do anything about it?” [Judge Denny Chin] asked, adding, “Nothing could be done? That is your position?”
    “That is correct,” Consovoy answered

    Well, at least now we know why Trump figures he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Avenue and it wouldn’t matter.

  47. Good Foreign Affairs article, wj. And the following is very relevant to the Donald-cleek conversation in the other thread:

    Russian President Vladimir Putin, professionally trained to manufacture compromising material on all sorts of opponents, couldn’t have produced a more disruptive document than the summary of the Trump-Zelensky call last July, which has sowed political dysfunction in both Washington and Kiev.
    By using his public office for personal gain, Trump has affirmed Putin’s long-held conviction—shared by autocrats the world over—that Americans are just as venal and self-absorbed as they are, just more hypocritical about it. For dictators, Trump is the gift that keeps on giving, a non-stop advertisement for Western self-dealing. So much for enlightened self-interest. So much for the power of our example. So much for our credibility.

  48. Good Foreign Affairs article, wj. And the following is very relevant to the Donald-cleek conversation in the other thread:

    Russian President Vladimir Putin, professionally trained to manufacture compromising material on all sorts of opponents, couldn’t have produced a more disruptive document than the summary of the Trump-Zelensky call last July, which has sowed political dysfunction in both Washington and Kiev.
    By using his public office for personal gain, Trump has affirmed Putin’s long-held conviction—shared by autocrats the world over—that Americans are just as venal and self-absorbed as they are, just more hypocritical about it. For dictators, Trump is the gift that keeps on giving, a non-stop advertisement for Western self-dealing. So much for enlightened self-interest. So much for the power of our example. So much for our credibility.

  51. Clowns.
    Yeah, and clowns aren’t funny. This is dead serious, and possibly the scariest thing that has happened so far, for what it implies about how Rs are going to behave going forward, and what their end game is.

  52. Clowns.
    Yeah, and clowns aren’t funny. This is dead serious, and possibly the scariest thing that has happened so far, for what it implies about how Rs are going to behave going forward, and what their end game is.

  55. “I represent nearly a million Floridians who are asking me my thoughts on this process, and yet I can’t relay to them anything except what’s being leaked to the media. It is really a travesty,” said Rep. Michael Waltz (R-Fla.), a member of the Armed Services panel.

    i play a mournful tune on my tiny little violin for you, Mike.
    telling isn’t it, that none of the Republicans attending these hearings are leaking anything? tells you there’s nothing good for them coming out of it.
    Rep Sean Mahoney (D) on NPR yesterday:

    MALONEY: Well, it all will be public in the – but what we’re doing right now is having staff-led depositions…
    CHANG: Right.
    MALONEY: …And interviews that are done much more efficiently. By the way, the Republicans are in the room. Their counsel is given equal time. The Republicans are there asking questions. They’re participating as full partners in this with the exception of having the power to issue subpoenas, which, of course, is always a majority prerogative. And it is everybody’s intention that we will rapidly move to a public phase when this is all laid out. All these transcripts, I assume, will be released. Many of us on the Democratic side are more than happy to have all the facts out. I think the facts will be a problem for the president. And the reason they’re talking about process and engaged in, you know, character assassination of Chairman Schiff is because the facts bury them, and those who are in the room know that.

  56. “I represent nearly a million Floridians who are asking me my thoughts on this process, and yet I can’t relay to them anything except what’s being leaked to the media. It is really a travesty,” said Rep. Michael Waltz (R-Fla.), a member of the Armed Services panel.

    i play a mournful tune on my tiny little violin for you, Mike.
    telling isn’t it, that none of the Republicans attending these hearings are leaking anything? tells you there’s nothing good for them coming out of it.
    Rep Sean Mahoney (D) on NPR yesterday:

    MALONEY: Well, it all will be public in the – but what we’re doing right now is having staff-led depositions…
    CHANG: Right.
    MALONEY: …And interviews that are done much more efficiently. By the way, the Republicans are in the room. Their counsel is given equal time. The Republicans are there asking questions. They’re participating as full partners in this with the exception of having the power to issue subpoenas, which, of course, is always a majority prerogative. And it is everybody’s intention that we will rapidly move to a public phase when this is all laid out. All these transcripts, I assume, will be released. Many of us on the Democratic side are more than happy to have all the facts out. I think the facts will be a problem for the president. And the reason they’re talking about process and engaged in, you know, character assassination of Chairman Schiff is because the facts bury them, and those who are in the room know that.

  57. Yeah, and clowns aren’t funny.
    the GOP’s insistence on fairy tales and lurid conspiracies is going to get someone hurt. they’re going to keep pushing the ludicrous idea that it’s a coup, and someone with a gun and not much to lose is going to believe it.

  58. Yeah, and clowns aren’t funny.
    the GOP’s insistence on fairy tales and lurid conspiracies is going to get someone hurt. they’re going to keep pushing the ludicrous idea that it’s a coup, and someone with a gun and not much to lose is going to believe it.

  59. someone with a gun and not much to lose is going to believe it.
    One of the miracles of the 21st century is that no whacko got close to taking a shot at President Obama. I’m still amazed.

  60. someone with a gun and not much to lose is going to believe it.
    One of the miracles of the 21st century is that no whacko got close to taking a shot at President Obama. I’m still amazed.

  61. One of the miracles…
    I agree. Furthermore, I think that if anything, it’s even more of a miracle in relation to Hillary. It’s like the whacko racists can get their fix by acting out their racism generically, in everyday life, while ordinary everyday misogyny doesn’t come close to covering the very personalized hatred the whackos feel for Hillary.

  62. One of the miracles…
    I agree. Furthermore, I think that if anything, it’s even more of a miracle in relation to Hillary. It’s like the whacko racists can get their fix by acting out their racism generically, in everyday life, while ordinary everyday misogyny doesn’t come close to covering the very personalized hatred the whackos feel for Hillary.

  65. oh boy. Trump knew about and encouraged the dipshit caucus to violate security procedures on his behalf.
    What? You think they have the brains to figure out on their own that his best chance at this point is anything that might delay proceedings? Not bloody likely.

  66. oh boy. Trump knew about and encouraged the dipshit caucus to violate security procedures on his behalf.
    What? You think they have the brains to figure out on their own that his best chance at this point is anything that might delay proceedings? Not bloody likely.

  67. i’m sure it won’t take very long for Schiff to throw another Obstruction on the pile. five minutes, tops.

  68. i’m sure it won’t take very long for Schiff to throw another Obstruction on the pile. five minutes, tops.

  71. Nigel, allow me to invite you to write something for the front page about this stuff. You consistently bring information I, at least, was unaware of.
    I’m flattered, russell.
    I’ll have to decline for the time being, as it’s a huge topic, and I have a very busy November/December… and a father with Alzheimer’s… so I’m finding it a challenge to put together connected thoughts of any great length at the moment.
    I will mull it over, and it’s not as though the issue is going away any time soon.

  72. Nigel, allow me to invite you to write something for the front page about this stuff. You consistently bring information I, at least, was unaware of.
    I’m flattered, russell.
    I’ll have to decline for the time being, as it’s a huge topic, and I have a very busy November/December… and a father with Alzheimer’s… so I’m finding it a challenge to put together connected thoughts of any great length at the moment.
    I will mull it over, and it’s not as though the issue is going away any time soon.

  73. My feeling on the “politics of place” is that we have long focused on the importance of making it possible, easy even, for individuals or (nuclear) families to move from one place to another. That way, people could go where the economic opportunities are. And certainly
    a) restricting people’s ability to move is an economic negative, and
    b) one of the things that has made the US unusual, and our economy dynamic, is that internal migrations were relatively normal.
    But two things are overlooked. First, the rise in home ownership has tended to result in people having a lot of their personal wealth tied up in their homes. However, if everybody is moving away, there’s nobody left to buy your house and let you get that wealth out.
    In addition, a lot of NIMBY zoning laws result in restricted housing in the destination areas. Therefore house prices are far higher there than elsewhere — which means that even if you can sell your old house for something like its worth, you still may not have enough to buy one where you want to go. And those same NIMBY zoning laws have often, in my observation, resulted in a distinct lack of apartments as well. In combination, you end up with a lot of people with 2 hour plus commutes.
    In addition, sometimes there are non-economic factors which cause people to want not to move. Not just sentimental attachment to the place either. For one example, if you have elderly relatives that you are helping care for, you can’t really uproot them as well.

  74. My feeling on the “politics of place” is that we have long focused on the importance of making it possible, easy even, for individuals or (nuclear) families to move from one place to another. That way, people could go where the economic opportunities are. And certainly
    a) restricting people’s ability to move is an economic negative, and
    b) one of the things that has made the US unusual, and our economy dynamic, is that internal migrations were relatively normal.
    But two things are overlooked. First, the rise in home ownership has tended to result in people having a lot of their personal wealth tied up in their homes. However, if everybody is moving away, there’s nobody left to buy your house and let you get that wealth out.
    In addition, a lot of NIMBY zoning laws result in restricted housing in the destination areas. Therefore house prices are far higher there than elsewhere — which means that even if you can sell your old house for something like its worth, you still may not have enough to buy one where you want to go. And those same NIMBY zoning laws have often, in my observation, resulted in a distinct lack of apartments as well. In combination, you end up with a lot of people with 2 hour plus commutes.
    In addition, sometimes there are non-economic factors which cause people to want not to move. Not just sentimental attachment to the place either. For one example, if you have elderly relatives that you are helping care for, you can’t really uproot them as well.

  75. Nigel, on the father with Alzheimer’s, very much sympathy and may the force be with you.

  76. Nigel, on the father with Alzheimer’s, very much sympathy and may the force be with you.

  77. Let’s recall who in particular was at the Brooks Brothers riot in Florida to steal that election, too:
    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS774US774&q=photo+of+kavanaugh+at+the+brooks+brothers+riot+in+florida&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-xpepr7PlAhURoZ4KHVqUCiEQsAR6BAgIEAE&biw=1280&bih=616
    John Cole is correct, arrest and jail the current republican rioters on Capitol Hill.
    If they resist, doesn’t the Sergeant-at-Arms have some “arms” to shoot them with, which would comport with conservative republican gun love, since they violated national security with their cellphones and their presence in off-limit areas?
    Maybe some stun guns to start with?
    Watching Gaetz wet himself as he tap dances a seizure on the floor would be good for a goof.
    Didn’t Scalise get enough in that baseball game when the patriot showed up?
    Where are all of the conservative subhuman vermin Oaf Keepers militia from Ferguson and Oregon and elsewhere to maintain order on Capitol Hill?
    Holding their fire until they start murdering liberals, brown people, and transitioning men and women if impeachment makes headway, I expect.
    Because as Rod Dreher laments, p may be the only bulwark standing between America and the fags, so, gee, maybe if p does kill a guy on 5th Avenue, we’ll need to stand firm for the President to fend off ruin.

  78. Let’s recall who in particular was at the Brooks Brothers riot in Florida to steal that election, too:
    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS774US774&q=photo+of+kavanaugh+at+the+brooks+brothers+riot+in+florida&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-xpepr7PlAhURoZ4KHVqUCiEQsAR6BAgIEAE&biw=1280&bih=616
    John Cole is correct, arrest and jail the current republican rioters on Capitol Hill.
    If they resist, doesn’t the Sergeant-at-Arms have some “arms” to shoot them with, which would comport with conservative republican gun love, since they violated national security with their cellphones and their presence in off-limit areas?
    Maybe some stun guns to start with?
    Watching Gaetz wet himself as he tap dances a seizure on the floor would be good for a goof.
    Didn’t Scalise get enough in that baseball game when the patriot showed up?
    Where are all of the conservative subhuman vermin Oaf Keepers militia from Ferguson and Oregon and elsewhere to maintain order on Capitol Hill?
    Holding their fire until they start murdering liberals, brown people, and transitioning men and women if impeachment makes headway, I expect.
    Because as Rod Dreher laments, p may be the only bulwark standing between America and the fags, so, gee, maybe if p does kill a guy on 5th Avenue, we’ll need to stand firm for the President to fend off ruin.

  83. Baseball fascist, yes! 🙂
    10 and 8. Praise only during games, some frustration when practicing with them (no you really do not know how to throw a slider Mr. 8YO, not that *I* do…).
    But yes, the younger one made all three outs one inning last weenked (sure they were all slow rollers to third base force outs – but still!). The older one’s teammates piled on the first baseman when he made the final out in the bottom of the six – holding the other team to zero runs and preserving a one run win (nevermind that he dropped an easy pop-up and had to track it down and step on first).
    Still need to coach third base.
    And… never played as a kid. Still baffled as how this could be the sport of choice for kids for so long (perhaps soccer has taken it over these day) when they can’t (a) throw; (b) catch; (c) hit; and if they happen “by some near convergence of the baseball…gods” to accomplish any of a/b/c they don’t know what to do next (other than run to first, sometimes in a straight line).
    And yet they are enjoying it – which was my biggest worry as their first foray into team sports (due to parental negligence and the older one’s mild dyspraxia). Maybe they have more patience than their father!
    I could do without the desultory landscaping but at least Juan Soto is entertaining.
    Nats in 5!

  84. Baseball fascist, yes! 🙂
    10 and 8. Praise only during games, some frustration when practicing with them (no you really do not know how to throw a slider Mr. 8YO, not that *I* do…).
    But yes, the younger one made all three outs one inning last weenked (sure they were all slow rollers to third base force outs – but still!). The older one’s teammates piled on the first baseman when he made the final out in the bottom of the six – holding the other team to zero runs and preserving a one run win (nevermind that he dropped an easy pop-up and had to track it down and step on first).
    Still need to coach third base.
    And… never played as a kid. Still baffled as how this could be the sport of choice for kids for so long (perhaps soccer has taken it over these day) when they can’t (a) throw; (b) catch; (c) hit; and if they happen “by some near convergence of the baseball…gods” to accomplish any of a/b/c they don’t know what to do next (other than run to first, sometimes in a straight line).
    And yet they are enjoying it – which was my biggest worry as their first foray into team sports (due to parental negligence and the older one’s mild dyspraxia). Maybe they have more patience than their father!
    I could do without the desultory landscaping but at least Juan Soto is entertaining.
    Nats in 5!

  85. And… never played as a kid. Still baffled as how this could be the sport of choice for kids for so long (perhaps soccer has taken it over these day) when they can’t (a) throw; (b) catch; (c) hit; and if they happen “by some near convergence of the baseball…gods” to accomplish any of a/b/c they don’t know what to do next (other than run to first, sometimes in a straight line).
    This is wonderful — I laughed out loud.
    Two observations:
    1) Times have changed so much that I don’t think we have much feel for what the world was like when, say, my dad’s generation were kids, and there were no video games, no TV, no nothin’ much except to go down to the empty lot and play ball. (Or every now and then go to the brick pond and swim. Of course all these things were only for boys.)
    Even when I was a kid it was a lot like that, and there was really no competition from any other sports. Soccer and hockey were unheard of. Basketball? When you’re older. Football? Well, I remember my boy cousins playing a sort of pickup football when we were maybe ten or so, but they were all throwing baseballs around long before that.
    I asked for a baseball glove when I was about ten, and my dad (ever mindful of gender norms until much later when he decided it would be lucrative for me to become a chemical engineer; he was disappointed in that wish) wouldn’t spend the money on a new glove for me, because he was sure I wouldn’t be interested in baseball for long. So I inherited a ratty old glove from my cousin Louis, who was then nine and had already worn one out.
    2) If you (Ugh) didn’t play when you were a kid, that probably makes a difference to how fast your kids pick it up, besides the general cultural milieu. My kids’ dad was a baseball player even on into college (but only for a bit), and after that a wicked good fast-pitch softball pitcher. I put him second only to Thullen in knowledge about baseball (and don’t tell him I said that). My kids knew how to throw and hit pretty well by the time they were old enough to play “minor league” baseball (age eight or so). My daughter insisted on playing baseball and not softball for the first few years, but that’s a story for another time. Except: to the chagrin of a couple of the boys and the delight of others, she was the fastest kid on her baseball team. And (not unrelated) she never got thrown out trying to steal second in softall (and rarely if ever in baseball, but I don’t remember that part for sure). I loved to watch her steal second, because it required a skillset that I totally lack. Including freedom from literal-mindedness. 😉
    Geez, what is it about baseball?

  86. And… never played as a kid. Still baffled as how this could be the sport of choice for kids for so long (perhaps soccer has taken it over these day) when they can’t (a) throw; (b) catch; (c) hit; and if they happen “by some near convergence of the baseball…gods” to accomplish any of a/b/c they don’t know what to do next (other than run to first, sometimes in a straight line).
    This is wonderful — I laughed out loud.
    Two observations:
    1) Times have changed so much that I don’t think we have much feel for what the world was like when, say, my dad’s generation were kids, and there were no video games, no TV, no nothin’ much except to go down to the empty lot and play ball. (Or every now and then go to the brick pond and swim. Of course all these things were only for boys.)
    Even when I was a kid it was a lot like that, and there was really no competition from any other sports. Soccer and hockey were unheard of. Basketball? When you’re older. Football? Well, I remember my boy cousins playing a sort of pickup football when we were maybe ten or so, but they were all throwing baseballs around long before that.
    I asked for a baseball glove when I was about ten, and my dad (ever mindful of gender norms until much later when he decided it would be lucrative for me to become a chemical engineer; he was disappointed in that wish) wouldn’t spend the money on a new glove for me, because he was sure I wouldn’t be interested in baseball for long. So I inherited a ratty old glove from my cousin Louis, who was then nine and had already worn one out.
    2) If you (Ugh) didn’t play when you were a kid, that probably makes a difference to how fast your kids pick it up, besides the general cultural milieu. My kids’ dad was a baseball player even on into college (but only for a bit), and after that a wicked good fast-pitch softball pitcher. I put him second only to Thullen in knowledge about baseball (and don’t tell him I said that). My kids knew how to throw and hit pretty well by the time they were old enough to play “minor league” baseball (age eight or so). My daughter insisted on playing baseball and not softball for the first few years, but that’s a story for another time. Except: to the chagrin of a couple of the boys and the delight of others, she was the fastest kid on her baseball team. And (not unrelated) she never got thrown out trying to steal second in softall (and rarely if ever in baseball, but I don’t remember that part for sure). I loved to watch her steal second, because it required a skillset that I totally lack. Including freedom from literal-mindedness. 😉
    Geez, what is it about baseball?

  87. On a less happy note, our family’s experience with kids’ sports wasn’t great by the time they both quit playing basketball partway through high school. The politics can be vicious, and not having played sports as a kid, I was unprepared and very bad at and about it. (Being learning disabled about politics of all kinds is a big handicap in many areas of life, I find.)
    Unsolicited advice — keep some emotional distance, stay cool, let it be fun, and don’t let other people taking it too seriously tempt you to take it too seriously.

  88. On a less happy note, our family’s experience with kids’ sports wasn’t great by the time they both quit playing basketball partway through high school. The politics can be vicious, and not having played sports as a kid, I was unprepared and very bad at and about it. (Being learning disabled about politics of all kinds is a big handicap in many areas of life, I find.)
    Unsolicited advice — keep some emotional distance, stay cool, let it be fun, and don’t let other people taking it too seriously tempt you to take it too seriously.

  89. It’s only one perspective, of course, but I wonder what Democratic thinking on this is ?
    I don’t see much from either party on the topic.
    I have no expertise that is really relevant to the question, but my non-expert analysis is that it’s not very easy to make a living in the areas under question.
    Everybody has to eat.
    And I don’t think that teaching everybody to code is gonna be the answer.
    I got nothing, TBH, but I do recognize that places that aren’t based around the fabled “knowledge economy”, whether that’s tech or finance or whatever, are not getting a lot of love, from either party.
    The (R) contribution appears to be telling all of those folks that the (D)’s hate them. So, they should therefore hate the (D)’s and all of their liberal coastal arugula eating ilk. I don’t really see that as particularly constructive, either.

  90. It’s only one perspective, of course, but I wonder what Democratic thinking on this is ?
    I don’t see much from either party on the topic.
    I have no expertise that is really relevant to the question, but my non-expert analysis is that it’s not very easy to make a living in the areas under question.
    Everybody has to eat.
    And I don’t think that teaching everybody to code is gonna be the answer.
    I got nothing, TBH, but I do recognize that places that aren’t based around the fabled “knowledge economy”, whether that’s tech or finance or whatever, are not getting a lot of love, from either party.
    The (R) contribution appears to be telling all of those folks that the (D)’s hate them. So, they should therefore hate the (D)’s and all of their liberal coastal arugula eating ilk. I don’t really see that as particularly constructive, either.

  91. The (R) contribution appears to be telling all of those folks that the (D)’s hate them. So, they should therefore hate the (D)’s and all of their liberal coastal arugula eating ilk. I don’t really see that as particularly constructive, either.
    Sadly, it does have one thing over the Democratic neglect. At least hating on the Dems is something they can DO. It’s totally non-constructive. But it can look more attractive than doing nothing at all.
    The good news is, it wouldn’t take much to come up with something more constructive. The bad news is, it does have to be something better than obviously unrealistic pie in the sky.

  92. The (R) contribution appears to be telling all of those folks that the (D)’s hate them. So, they should therefore hate the (D)’s and all of their liberal coastal arugula eating ilk. I don’t really see that as particularly constructive, either.
    Sadly, it does have one thing over the Democratic neglect. At least hating on the Dems is something they can DO. It’s totally non-constructive. But it can look more attractive than doing nothing at all.
    The good news is, it wouldn’t take much to come up with something more constructive. The bad news is, it does have to be something better than obviously unrealistic pie in the sky.

  93. Don’t know how the game went thru the top of the 6th. But the 7th (which is still not over!) is making it real clear which team has it together and which one is in over their head. Impressive.

  94. Don’t know how the game went thru the top of the 6th. But the 7th (which is still not over!) is making it real clear which team has it together and which one is in over their head. Impressive.

  95. Well, now we know. Apparently part of the reason thete hasn’t been more wall built along the Mexican border is that Trump has building part of his wall in . . . Colorado. (Or has Colorado moved to the border since I last looked at a map…? Is that even possible — outside the Trump fantasy universe, of course.)

  96. Well, now we know. Apparently part of the reason thete hasn’t been more wall built along the Mexican border is that Trump has building part of his wall in . . . Colorado. (Or has Colorado moved to the border since I last looked at a map…? Is that even possible — outside the Trump fantasy universe, of course.)

  105. Boris Johnson and Benny Hill, twins separated at birth? Was “Yakkity Sax” playing when they were in utero? Inquiring minds want to know!

  106. Boris Johnson and Benny Hill, twins separated at birth? Was “Yakkity Sax” playing when they were in utero? Inquiring minds want to know!

  109. but if all white evangelical Protestants are laughable frauds, who will steer the country towards the Christian godliness that the founders demanded?

  110. but if all white evangelical Protestants are laughable frauds, who will steer the country towards the Christian godliness that the founders demanded?

  113. 99 percent of GOP-leaning white evangelical Protestants oppose impeaching and removing Trump from office and 63 percent say he has done nothing to damage the dignity of the presidency.
    And hete we see the true meaning of “blind faith”

  114. 99 percent of GOP-leaning white evangelical Protestants oppose impeaching and removing Trump from office and 63 percent say he has done nothing to damage the dignity of the presidency.
    And hete we see the true meaning of “blind faith”

  115. Barr will be executed.
    I’m not having my tax dollars stolen to provide that Opus Dei/Nixon plumbers fuck three squares a day.
    “…. all white evangelical Protestants are laughable frauds,”
    But it’s guaranteed fraud, courtesy of Guiliani’s “associates’ ” Fraud Guarantee, so what’s the problem?
    The orthodox all-in-on-p Buchanan Catholics over at The anti-American Conservative carry policies with the same company, I expect.
    Fraud Guarantee: The Jeopardy question of the year, for a trillion dollars, to the answer: What title did the prescient Thomas Jefferson prefer for what came to be known as his Republican Party?

  116. Barr will be executed.
    I’m not having my tax dollars stolen to provide that Opus Dei/Nixon plumbers fuck three squares a day.
    “…. all white evangelical Protestants are laughable frauds,”
    But it’s guaranteed fraud, courtesy of Guiliani’s “associates’ ” Fraud Guarantee, so what’s the problem?
    The orthodox all-in-on-p Buchanan Catholics over at The anti-American Conservative carry policies with the same company, I expect.
    Fraud Guarantee: The Jeopardy question of the year, for a trillion dollars, to the answer: What title did the prescient Thomas Jefferson prefer for what came to be known as his Republican Party?

  117. From Trumpista Hugh Hewitt today, a column entitled:
    If Republicans don’t stand by Trump, they risk losing their base forever.
    From his lips to God’s ears.

  118. From Trumpista Hugh Hewitt today, a column entitled:
    If Republicans don’t stand by Trump, they risk losing their base forever.
    From his lips to God’s ears.

  121. If you wish to understand the phenomenon of Boris Johnson, this is perhaps the only story you need to read
    An interesting and revealing story, absolutely no doubt about it. But nobody should be fooled into thinking he is JUST a buffoon. The story shows his laziness and disregard for detail of any kind (for which he is famed), but it also shows how very calculating he is. He is amoral, power-hungry and slapdash, but he judged the response of the audiences right in that story, and has succeeded in becoming PM, despite many testimonies to his character faults which should have disqualified him (first and foremost that he was sacked from two jobs for lying). He is a clever, dangerous and apparently vengeful man, unconstrained by moral considerations. He can do us an enormous amount of damage before it’s over.

  122. If you wish to understand the phenomenon of Boris Johnson, this is perhaps the only story you need to read
    An interesting and revealing story, absolutely no doubt about it. But nobody should be fooled into thinking he is JUST a buffoon. The story shows his laziness and disregard for detail of any kind (for which he is famed), but it also shows how very calculating he is. He is amoral, power-hungry and slapdash, but he judged the response of the audiences right in that story, and has succeeded in becoming PM, despite many testimonies to his character faults which should have disqualified him (first and foremost that he was sacked from two jobs for lying). He is a clever, dangerous and apparently vengeful man, unconstrained by moral considerations. He can do us an enormous amount of damage before it’s over.

  123. GftNC, that description of Boris could be applied, pretty much word for word, to Trump. The only real difference being that Trump has more scooe to do damage.

  124. GftNC, that description of Boris could be applied, pretty much word for word, to Trump. The only real difference being that Trump has more scooe to do damage.

  125. wj: yes I thought about that, and Trump is of course more powerful, but the big difference is that Boris is actually, according to many people who know or have known him, very clever. This makes him dangerous in a different way.

  126. wj: yes I thought about that, and Trump is of course more powerful, but the big difference is that Boris is actually, according to many people who know or have known him, very clever. This makes him dangerous in a different way.

  127. But BJ has still a wee more brain than DJT.
    Think what damage the latter could do, if the brain situation was in reverse.

  128. But BJ has still a wee more brain than DJT.
    Think what damage the latter could do, if the brain situation was in reverse.

  135. nobody should be fooled into thinking he is JUST a buffoon..
    I don’t think the story shows him as a buffoon at all.
    Up until halfway through that is the impression, of course – and then the rug gets pulled from under you.
    It’s a very good piece of writing, and admirably leaves the reader to draw their own moral.

  136. nobody should be fooled into thinking he is JUST a buffoon..
    I don’t think the story shows him as a buffoon at all.
    Up until halfway through that is the impression, of course – and then the rug gets pulled from under you.
    It’s a very good piece of writing, and admirably leaves the reader to draw their own moral.

  137. Boris Johnson – scholarship to Oxford – is vastly more intelligent than Donald Trump – had to pull strings to transfer to Wharton (I don’t know what that is) where he was reportedly “the dumbest goddam student I ever had”.
    But he’s no more honest or trustworthy.

  138. Boris Johnson – scholarship to Oxford – is vastly more intelligent than Donald Trump – had to pull strings to transfer to Wharton (I don’t know what that is) where he was reportedly “the dumbest goddam student I ever had”.
    But he’s no more honest or trustworthy.

  139. Nigel: well, some people might have drawn the conclusion that he was a not very bright joker who had found a routine that worked for him and resolutely stuck to it. The latter part of which is true, of course.
    Pro Bono: Wharton is, I am told, very impressive Ivy League stuff. But my informants tell me: not the way he got there.

  140. Nigel: well, some people might have drawn the conclusion that he was a not very bright joker who had found a routine that worked for him and resolutely stuck to it. The latter part of which is true, of course.
    Pro Bono: Wharton is, I am told, very impressive Ivy League stuff. But my informants tell me: not the way he got there.

  141. Wharton is U of Penn’s business school.
    Humorous side story: A good friend of mine got his master’s in nursing from Penn’s nursing school a couple years ago. I attended the commencement. When they started the announcements for the Wharton grads, there was a chorus of half-joking “Boo”s from the other schools’ graduates (and some of guests). It was followed by a little bit of laughter, as though contempt for Wharton was a running joke of sorts at Penn. I don’t know if it was at least in part a reflection of Rump’s graduation from Wharton.

  142. Wharton is U of Penn’s business school.
    Humorous side story: A good friend of mine got his master’s in nursing from Penn’s nursing school a couple years ago. I attended the commencement. When they started the announcements for the Wharton grads, there was a chorus of half-joking “Boo”s from the other schools’ graduates (and some of guests). It was followed by a little bit of laughter, as though contempt for Wharton was a running joke of sorts at Penn. I don’t know if it was at least in part a reflection of Rump’s graduation from Wharton.

  143. Wharton, the graduate business school, is extremely good. But turns out that wasn’t what Trump attended. He was an undergraduate at the University of Pennsylvania. And, as noted, a particularly lackluster one. No way he was ever getting in to grad school.

  144. Wharton, the graduate business school, is extremely good. But turns out that wasn’t what Trump attended. He was an undergraduate at the University of Pennsylvania. And, as noted, a particularly lackluster one. No way he was ever getting in to grad school.

  145. Wharton confers bachelor’s degrees. It is both an undergraduate and graduate school. It’s highly ranked as both an undergraduate and graduate institution.
    From wikipedia:

    Wharton is widely regarded as one of the world’s top institutions for business education. In 2014–2015, as well as 2017–2018, U.S. News & World Report ranked Wharton’s undergraduate program first in the U.S.,[11] MBA program tied for first in the U.S.,[10] and executive MBA program also first,.[81] The undergraduate program at the Wharton School has been ranked number one by U.S. News & World Report every single year since inception.

    So, yes, Rump was an undergraduate at U Penn, but at Wharton more specifically. And it’s an extremely prestigious school, be it for undergraduate studies or graduate studies.
    Money is an advantage.

  146. Wharton confers bachelor’s degrees. It is both an undergraduate and graduate school. It’s highly ranked as both an undergraduate and graduate institution.
    From wikipedia:

    Wharton is widely regarded as one of the world’s top institutions for business education. In 2014–2015, as well as 2017–2018, U.S. News & World Report ranked Wharton’s undergraduate program first in the U.S.,[11] MBA program tied for first in the U.S.,[10] and executive MBA program also first,.[81] The undergraduate program at the Wharton School has been ranked number one by U.S. News & World Report every single year since inception.

    So, yes, Rump was an undergraduate at U Penn, but at Wharton more specifically. And it’s an extremely prestigious school, be it for undergraduate studies or graduate studies.
    Money is an advantage.

  149. Trump transferred into Wharton, his brother was a student and pulled strings with one of his professors to get Donald’s transfer approved.

  150. Trump transferred into Wharton, his brother was a student and pulled strings with one of his professors to get Donald’s transfer approved.

  151. Trump lied multiple times about graduating first in class from Wharton. which he most definitely did not. also, he did two years at Fordham before transferring to Wharton.

  152. Trump lied multiple times about graduating first in class from Wharton. which he most definitely did not. also, he did two years at Fordham before transferring to Wharton.

  155. Yes, an ex-ward of mine got into Wharton as an undergraduate – the rejoicing of her Chinese family was something to behold. They kept an unequalled eagle eye on school rankings etc, so I knew about its reputation. She was a brilliant kid, with top marks in everything and a ferocious work ethic, so if Wharton was anything like that back in the day no wonder Trump tries to boast about it. But I too have heard, like Pro Bono, how inadequate Trump was when he was there.

  156. Yes, an ex-ward of mine got into Wharton as an undergraduate – the rejoicing of her Chinese family was something to behold. They kept an unequalled eagle eye on school rankings etc, so I knew about its reputation. She was a brilliant kid, with top marks in everything and a ferocious work ethic, so if Wharton was anything like that back in the day no wonder Trump tries to boast about it. But I too have heard, like Pro Bono, how inadequate Trump was when he was there.

  157. Thanks, all, for educating me about Wharton. (Obviously my acquaintance with business schools is even more limited than I knew.)

  158. Thanks, all, for educating me about Wharton. (Obviously my acquaintance with business schools is even more limited than I knew.)

  165. Another friend of mine who graduated from Penn as an engineer had a friend, possibly a roommate, who tutored Donald, Jr. He did not report an impressive intellect on junior’s part – at least not impressive in a good way. I guess it left an impression of some sort.

  166. Another friend of mine who graduated from Penn as an engineer had a friend, possibly a roommate, who tutored Donald, Jr. He did not report an impressive intellect on junior’s part – at least not impressive in a good way. I guess it left an impression of some sort.

  167. “I am … perplexed”
    The first shots (and knives drawn) have already been fired.
    They murdered Jo Cox.
    All else will be self defense, because the radical, nationalist, crypto-religious, white-supremacist (and their fellow travelers) asshole right wing around the globe will do whatever it takes to achieve their goals.
    “I wonder what a similar poll …?”
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/civil-war-voters-say-were-getting-close-2019-10-24?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    Polling from the top:
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-trump-facing-impeachment-warns-of-civil-war
    The first President since Jefferson Davis to threaten Civil War on American soil, tell me I’m wrong.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/who-is-robert-jeffress-civil-war-trump-impeachment.html
    Even a baseball umpire and his AR-15 have chimed in.
    If I’m a Latino, black, or white liberal ballplayer and that guy is calling balls and strikes on me, he’d better be fucking prepared to use that weapon on the ball field because things are going to goddamned fucking bloody escalate quickly to his mortal detriment.
    An armed society is a bullet-riddled society, as we see proved week to week in this republican shit hole country.
    The only “polite” words uttered are by kindergartners pleading “Please, don’t shoot and kill me,” as they tuck and roll and try to get their cute armored backpacks between NRA/Republican Party-armed gunmen and themselves.
    I have a story about a run-in (my second one in recent years) that I experienced with an armed p cult member in California on my recent travels. It was short, completely unprovoked by me (I don’t raise politics with these people), and out of the blue, but very threateningly instructive about the full intentions of these dumb shit dangerous ilk.
    They are ready to kill.
    I’ll tell you about it in my final comment here, as soon as tie up loose ends and get a few more things off my chest.

  168. “I am … perplexed”
    The first shots (and knives drawn) have already been fired.
    They murdered Jo Cox.
    All else will be self defense, because the radical, nationalist, crypto-religious, white-supremacist (and their fellow travelers) asshole right wing around the globe will do whatever it takes to achieve their goals.
    “I wonder what a similar poll …?”
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/civil-war-voters-say-were-getting-close-2019-10-24?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    Polling from the top:
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-trump-facing-impeachment-warns-of-civil-war
    The first President since Jefferson Davis to threaten Civil War on American soil, tell me I’m wrong.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/who-is-robert-jeffress-civil-war-trump-impeachment.html
    Even a baseball umpire and his AR-15 have chimed in.
    If I’m a Latino, black, or white liberal ballplayer and that guy is calling balls and strikes on me, he’d better be fucking prepared to use that weapon on the ball field because things are going to goddamned fucking bloody escalate quickly to his mortal detriment.
    An armed society is a bullet-riddled society, as we see proved week to week in this republican shit hole country.
    The only “polite” words uttered are by kindergartners pleading “Please, don’t shoot and kill me,” as they tuck and roll and try to get their cute armored backpacks between NRA/Republican Party-armed gunmen and themselves.
    I have a story about a run-in (my second one in recent years) that I experienced with an armed p cult member in California on my recent travels. It was short, completely unprovoked by me (I don’t raise politics with these people), and out of the blue, but very threateningly instructive about the full intentions of these dumb shit dangerous ilk.
    They are ready to kill.
    I’ll tell you about it in my final comment here, as soon as tie up loose ends and get a few more things off my chest.

  169. The first President since Jefferson Davis to threaten Civil War on American soil, tell me I’m wrong.
    OK, you’re wrong.
    Davis was a Congressman and Senator, and a cabinet member. But never President (at least of the US). And he didn’t actually advocate (or threaten) a civil war. He even counselled delaying succession because he thought the north wouldn’t allow it without a war.
    Makes Trump actually worse on that score.

  170. The first President since Jefferson Davis to threaten Civil War on American soil, tell me I’m wrong.
    OK, you’re wrong.
    Davis was a Congressman and Senator, and a cabinet member. But never President (at least of the US). And he didn’t actually advocate (or threaten) a civil war. He even counselled delaying succession because he thought the north wouldn’t allow it without a war.
    Makes Trump actually worse on that score.

  171. “(at least of the US)”
    That was implicit in what I wrote.
    He was President of the Confederacy, one month before Lincoln became US President, when he ordered Union troops to surrender Fort Sumter.
    His General ordered the first shots of the Civil War.
    http://www.ushistory.org/us/33a.asp
    He didn’t advocate or threaten Civil War?
    And p didn’t invite Russia to hack Clinton’s emails either, so goes what is right in front of our eyes.
    What did Davis think was going to happen when a Federal Naval facility was fired on with Confederate guns?
    It wasn’t a harmless bird preserve like the Malheur, which Obama, by the way, should have sent the National Guard into to slaughter the republican tax-deadbeat conservative vigilantes on the first day.
    Close enough.

  172. “(at least of the US)”
    That was implicit in what I wrote.
    He was President of the Confederacy, one month before Lincoln became US President, when he ordered Union troops to surrender Fort Sumter.
    His General ordered the first shots of the Civil War.
    http://www.ushistory.org/us/33a.asp
    He didn’t advocate or threaten Civil War?
    And p didn’t invite Russia to hack Clinton’s emails either, so goes what is right in front of our eyes.
    What did Davis think was going to happen when a Federal Naval facility was fired on with Confederate guns?
    It wasn’t a harmless bird preserve like the Malheur, which Obama, by the way, should have sent the National Guard into to slaughter the republican tax-deadbeat conservative vigilantes on the first day.
    Close enough.

  175. I am waiting for Tuesday (my guess) to see whether France folds, or holds out for something that holds Corbyn’s toes to the fire.

  176. I am waiting for Tuesday (my guess) to see whether France folds, or holds out for something that holds Corbyn’s toes to the fire.

  177. Just parking this here for the irony:
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/24/offshore-windfarms-can-provide-more-electricity-than-the-world-needs
    “Offshore wind provides a huge new business portfolio for major engineering firms and established oil and gas companies which have a strong offshore production experience,” he said. “Our analysis shows that 40% of the work in offshore wind construction and maintenance has synergies with oil and gas practises.”…
    Though it correctly emphasises that renewable energy will be a massive driver of economic activity over the next couple of decades.

  178. Just parking this here for the irony:
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/24/offshore-windfarms-can-provide-more-electricity-than-the-world-needs
    “Offshore wind provides a huge new business portfolio for major engineering firms and established oil and gas companies which have a strong offshore production experience,” he said. “Our analysis shows that 40% of the work in offshore wind construction and maintenance has synergies with oil and gas practises.”…
    Though it correctly emphasises that renewable energy will be a massive driver of economic activity over the next couple of decades.

  179. A short break from politics involving my Penn-engineer friend I mentioned yesterday. We were out last night for another friend’s birthday, and he mentioned a 10-mile run he’s doing Sunday morning. It’s the 50th year of the annual run from Haddonfield, NJ to Red Bank Battlefield Park in National Park, NJ. This run has a very cool story behind it.
    The run approximates the run Jonas Cattell made in 1777. More detail from http://www.haddonfield.njdar.org/jonas_cattell.html :

    Jonas Cattell was born in 1758, on a farm called Lavender Hills. The farm was located just outside Woodbury, New Jersey, in what is now the town of Deptford. While growing up, Jonas loved the outdoors and exploring the woods and trails in the area. He was known as a fast runner; in more recent times, he was listed in Ripley’s Believe It or Not for hand-delivering a letter from Woodbury to Cape May and back, 160 miles, on foot, in two days. And at the age of 18, in October 1777, Jonas became a hero.
    At that time, a force of Hessian troops was camped in Haddonfield. Jonas was said to have been apprenticed to a blacksmith in Haddonfield, but had stayed there too late and was arrested by the soldiers for violating curfew. His punishment was to spend the night in jail until first light. During the night, Jonas overheard the Hessian and British soldiers discussing a surprise, early morning attack they were planning for the following day. They planned to march to Fort Mercer on the Delaware River and overthrow the American patriots who were stationed there.
    Jonas Cattell was familiar with all of the back trails in the area. In fact, he was known to have created a number of the trails. When he was released the following morning, Jonas used those back trails and ran the ten miles from Haddonfield to Fort Mercer so he could warn the patriots. Thanks to his knowledge of the area, he arrived well before the Hessians. This warning allowed the Americans to strategically position themselves to defend their fort. Even though the American patriots were outnumbered by three to one, because they were able to prepare for the battle against the Hessians, they were able to defeat the Hessian and British soldiers, and to inflict massive casualties while suffering minimal losses within their own ranks.

  180. A short break from politics involving my Penn-engineer friend I mentioned yesterday. We were out last night for another friend’s birthday, and he mentioned a 10-mile run he’s doing Sunday morning. It’s the 50th year of the annual run from Haddonfield, NJ to Red Bank Battlefield Park in National Park, NJ. This run has a very cool story behind it.
    The run approximates the run Jonas Cattell made in 1777. More detail from http://www.haddonfield.njdar.org/jonas_cattell.html :

    Jonas Cattell was born in 1758, on a farm called Lavender Hills. The farm was located just outside Woodbury, New Jersey, in what is now the town of Deptford. While growing up, Jonas loved the outdoors and exploring the woods and trails in the area. He was known as a fast runner; in more recent times, he was listed in Ripley’s Believe It or Not for hand-delivering a letter from Woodbury to Cape May and back, 160 miles, on foot, in two days. And at the age of 18, in October 1777, Jonas became a hero.
    At that time, a force of Hessian troops was camped in Haddonfield. Jonas was said to have been apprenticed to a blacksmith in Haddonfield, but had stayed there too late and was arrested by the soldiers for violating curfew. His punishment was to spend the night in jail until first light. During the night, Jonas overheard the Hessian and British soldiers discussing a surprise, early morning attack they were planning for the following day. They planned to march to Fort Mercer on the Delaware River and overthrow the American patriots who were stationed there.
    Jonas Cattell was familiar with all of the back trails in the area. In fact, he was known to have created a number of the trails. When he was released the following morning, Jonas used those back trails and ran the ten miles from Haddonfield to Fort Mercer so he could warn the patriots. Thanks to his knowledge of the area, he arrived well before the Hessians. This warning allowed the Americans to strategically position themselves to defend their fort. Even though the American patriots were outnumbered by three to one, because they were able to prepare for the battle against the Hessians, they were able to defeat the Hessian and British soldiers, and to inflict massive casualties while suffering minimal losses within their own ranks.

  181. p threatens to crash the Astros/Nationals 5th game of the World Series on Sunday.
    With the Nationals up 2-Zip, maybe they can sweep the thing in four and kind of, you know, as Washington DC’s team, Deep-State p’s day.
    Then, on Sunday, with baseball in the can for the winter, Houston could hold an homage to the AR-15 and domestic abuse, the two top planks in the RNC’s platform, starring our friendly (“I just call ball and strikes”) umpire, and the now fired Osuna-supporter in Houston’s management.
    Mike Pence could do a flyover in his angel suit.

  182. p threatens to crash the Astros/Nationals 5th game of the World Series on Sunday.
    With the Nationals up 2-Zip, maybe they can sweep the thing in four and kind of, you know, as Washington DC’s team, Deep-State p’s day.
    Then, on Sunday, with baseball in the can for the winter, Houston could hold an homage to the AR-15 and domestic abuse, the two top planks in the RNC’s platform, starring our friendly (“I just call ball and strikes”) umpire, and the now fired Osuna-supporter in Houston’s management.
    Mike Pence could do a flyover in his angel suit.

  183. We don’t need no stinking War Room:
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/10/top-shelf-by-bloggersrus.html
    “Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here, this is the War Room! The Civil War Room is down the hall!”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeqVGP-GPM
    Bannon is back.
    I don’t know how he got out of threatening violence in Europe without encountering a bullet to the head, but that’s our job anyway.
    Game’s on.
    In the first Civil War, not counting smallish skirmishes, the first major battle after Fort Sumter was the first Manasses in Virginia, I believe.
    Trump won that one.
    But, more, as they say, after the commercial break.

  184. We don’t need no stinking War Room:
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/10/top-shelf-by-bloggersrus.html
    “Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here, this is the War Room! The Civil War Room is down the hall!”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeqVGP-GPM
    Bannon is back.
    I don’t know how he got out of threatening violence in Europe without encountering a bullet to the head, but that’s our job anyway.
    Game’s on.
    In the first Civil War, not counting smallish skirmishes, the first major battle after Fort Sumter was the first Manasses in Virginia, I believe.
    Trump won that one.
    But, more, as they say, after the commercial break.

  185. After years of watching my son play rugby I’m finding the rugby world cup – semi-finals this weekend – quite enjoyable.
    Junior rugby is played in age-groups, which doesn’t work all that well, in that at 13, say, some boys are man-sized or nearly so, while the average is about five feet tall and 100 pounds. So when he started playing competitively, my son was fearlessly tackling much larger opponents, while I watched in trepidation.
    Now I see a largish, thuggish-looking 17-year-old flanker making a mess of opponents’ ball. My baby.
    Don’t tell him I said that.

  186. After years of watching my son play rugby I’m finding the rugby world cup – semi-finals this weekend – quite enjoyable.
    Junior rugby is played in age-groups, which doesn’t work all that well, in that at 13, say, some boys are man-sized or nearly so, while the average is about five feet tall and 100 pounds. So when he started playing competitively, my son was fearlessly tackling much larger opponents, while I watched in trepidation.
    Now I see a largish, thuggish-looking 17-year-old flanker making a mess of opponents’ ball. My baby.
    Don’t tell him I said that.

  187. With the Nationals up 2-Zip, maybe they can sweep the thing in four and kind of, you know, as Washington DC’s team, Deep-State p’s day.
    I confess that was pretty much my exact thought when I first saw he was thinking of going to game 5.
    But consider. If it does come to a 5th game, would they want him throwing out the first pitch? Would he demand to be allowed to? (Does his ignorance of history include how it went for Bush I — who, be it noted, was a pitcher in college?) He works so hard to find new ways to embarrass himself, it seems like something he would insist on.

  188. With the Nationals up 2-Zip, maybe they can sweep the thing in four and kind of, you know, as Washington DC’s team, Deep-State p’s day.
    I confess that was pretty much my exact thought when I first saw he was thinking of going to game 5.
    But consider. If it does come to a 5th game, would they want him throwing out the first pitch? Would he demand to be allowed to? (Does his ignorance of history include how it went for Bush I — who, be it noted, was a pitcher in college?) He works so hard to find new ways to embarrass himself, it seems like something he would insist on.

  191. My baby.
    Don’t tell him I said that.
    This made me smile. One of my god-daughters will be 21 in June; I remember at a party 6 weeks after she was born prematurely (I met her when she was an hour old) seeing her fitting entirely in one of her godfather’s’ hands (one of his hands, and one of her godfathers), and when I see her now (which I do often, she lives in the North Country) I still unabashedly squish her and kiss her to pieces. I am so lucky, she puts up with it very good-naturedly.

  192. My baby.
    Don’t tell him I said that.
    This made me smile. One of my god-daughters will be 21 in June; I remember at a party 6 weeks after she was born prematurely (I met her when she was an hour old) seeing her fitting entirely in one of her godfather’s’ hands (one of his hands, and one of her godfathers), and when I see her now (which I do often, she lives in the North Country) I still unabashedly squish her and kiss her to pieces. I am so lucky, she puts up with it very good-naturedly.

  193. About this freedom of speech thing, does anyone know what it means these days ?
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/women-comedian-actors-confront-harvey-weinstein-at-new-york-event.html
    Disgraced Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein, who faces a rape trial in New York City in January, was confronted when he showed up at an event for emerging actors and artists in Manhattan Wednesday night. Weinstein attended the monthly Actor’s Hour event at a Lower East Side bar, alighting at a table with an entourage as stand-up comics performed sets. The comedians were reportedly instructed not to mention Weinstein, who has been accused of rape and sexual assault by dozens of women, many of them young and aspiring actors….
    ….Alexandra Laliberte, the organizer of Actor’s Hour, explained to BuzzFeed News the reasoning behind allowing Weinstein to attend an event of the very sort he once specifically preyed on. “I welcome all walks of life into my space,” she said. “I protect them by freedom of speech.”

  194. About this freedom of speech thing, does anyone know what it means these days ?
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/women-comedian-actors-confront-harvey-weinstein-at-new-york-event.html
    Disgraced Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein, who faces a rape trial in New York City in January, was confronted when he showed up at an event for emerging actors and artists in Manhattan Wednesday night. Weinstein attended the monthly Actor’s Hour event at a Lower East Side bar, alighting at a table with an entourage as stand-up comics performed sets. The comedians were reportedly instructed not to mention Weinstein, who has been accused of rape and sexual assault by dozens of women, many of them young and aspiring actors….
    ….Alexandra Laliberte, the organizer of Actor’s Hour, explained to BuzzFeed News the reasoning behind allowing Weinstein to attend an event of the very sort he once specifically preyed on. “I welcome all walks of life into my space,” she said. “I protect them by freedom of speech.”

  195. Perhaps one of you folks in the UK can clear up for me just where things are.
    On one hand, I see that Boris has called for a new election (for mid-December).
    On the other hand, under current law it takes 2/3 (3/4?) of the MPs voting in favor in order for a new election to happen early like that. And I see that Labour won’t vote for that. (Which makes some sense. If I were the Labour Party, I wouldn’t want to go into an election with Jeremy as leader either, since he’s somehow even less popular than Boris. And Jeremy himself seems happy as Leader of the Opposition, but with almost as little interest in actually governing as Trump.(
    So, are you guys having a new election or not? And if you are, how did Parliament come up with the votes to do so?

  196. Perhaps one of you folks in the UK can clear up for me just where things are.
    On one hand, I see that Boris has called for a new election (for mid-December).
    On the other hand, under current law it takes 2/3 (3/4?) of the MPs voting in favor in order for a new election to happen early like that. And I see that Labour won’t vote for that. (Which makes some sense. If I were the Labour Party, I wouldn’t want to go into an election with Jeremy as leader either, since he’s somehow even less popular than Boris. And Jeremy himself seems happy as Leader of the Opposition, but with almost as little interest in actually governing as Trump.(
    So, are you guys having a new election or not? And if you are, how did Parliament come up with the votes to do so?

  197. Quote of the day:

    Trump said he wasn’t worried about growing criminal investigations around his personal attorney, Rudolph W. Giuliani, because “Rudy is a great gentleman. He’s been a great crime fighter, he looks for corruption wherever he goes.”

    Ummm, shouldn’t that be “he looks for corruption opportunities wherever he goes”?

  198. Quote of the day:

    Trump said he wasn’t worried about growing criminal investigations around his personal attorney, Rudolph W. Giuliani, because “Rudy is a great gentleman. He’s been a great crime fighter, he looks for corruption wherever he goes.”

    Ummm, shouldn’t that be “he looks for corruption opportunities wherever he goes”?

  199. wj: I believe it requires 2/3 of the house to approve it, and Labour says they won’t agree to it until “no deal” is taken off the table. Much jockeying is still taking place; as I understand it, the outcome is still in doubt.

  200. wj: I believe it requires 2/3 of the house to approve it, and Labour says they won’t agree to it until “no deal” is taken off the table. Much jockeying is still taking place; as I understand it, the outcome is still in doubt.

  201. I am so lucky, she puts up with it very good-naturedly.
    I’m sure she considers herself quite lucky, too, GftNC.

  202. I am so lucky, she puts up with it very good-naturedly.
    I’m sure she considers herself quite lucky, too, GftNC.

  203. Nobody knows, but the betting markets are laying odds against a December election.
    One issue is that an election entails a period when there is no parliamentary scrutiny of the executive, and no one trusts BoJo not to use that to implement a Brexit of his choosing.
    Given that BoJo can’t get a parliamentary majority for anything important, the rational solution would be for a new government to be formed more to the liking of a majority of MPs. That government could then call for a general election without exciting fear of procedural trickery. But JeCo refuses to let his party vote for that unless he is to be Prime Minister, and the majority of MPs don’t like that idea at all.
    All this may not be what the framers of the Fixed Term Parliament Act had in mind.

  204. Nobody knows, but the betting markets are laying odds against a December election.
    One issue is that an election entails a period when there is no parliamentary scrutiny of the executive, and no one trusts BoJo not to use that to implement a Brexit of his choosing.
    Given that BoJo can’t get a parliamentary majority for anything important, the rational solution would be for a new government to be formed more to the liking of a majority of MPs. That government could then call for a general election without exciting fear of procedural trickery. But JeCo refuses to let his party vote for that unless he is to be Prime Minister, and the majority of MPs don’t like that idea at all.
    All this may not be what the framers of the Fixed Term Parliament Act had in mind.

  207. Rudy, like much of Trump’s circle, is so inept in the things that he does that one would normally assume the reports were from the Onion. Except that they are in reputable news reports, from reporters with a well-earned reputation for playing it straight.
    Can anybody really be this dumb? This incompetent? This consistent in shooting themselves in the foot? And yet it keeps happening. It really is a refutation by counter-example of the thesis of a malevolent universe — in such a universe these clowns would never have reached maturity. Even in an indifferent universe their chances would have been slim.

  208. Rudy, like much of Trump’s circle, is so inept in the things that he does that one would normally assume the reports were from the Onion. Except that they are in reputable news reports, from reporters with a well-earned reputation for playing it straight.
    Can anybody really be this dumb? This incompetent? This consistent in shooting themselves in the foot? And yet it keeps happening. It really is a refutation by counter-example of the thesis of a malevolent universe — in such a universe these clowns would never have reached maturity. Even in an indifferent universe their chances would have been slim.

  209. Another piece of significant news:
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/25/mueller-report-trump-justice-department-democrats-grand-jury-evidence
    It’s been a string of very bad news for Trump in the impeachment battle.
    It’s now almost certain, IMO, that the House will end up sending this to the Senate for trial.
    I would not be amazed if Roberts ends up president with a degree of impartiality (though that’s hardly certain).
    Then, politics.
    Are there enough Republican Senators who will risk the contempt of history if the evidence is sufficiently clear even to the biased observer ?

  210. Another piece of significant news:
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/25/mueller-report-trump-justice-department-democrats-grand-jury-evidence
    It’s been a string of very bad news for Trump in the impeachment battle.
    It’s now almost certain, IMO, that the House will end up sending this to the Senate for trial.
    I would not be amazed if Roberts ends up president with a degree of impartiality (though that’s hardly certain).
    Then, politics.
    Are there enough Republican Senators who will risk the contempt of history if the evidence is sufficiently clear even to the biased observer ?

  211. Perhaps one of you folks in the UK can clear up for me just where things are.
    Ahahahahahahahhahaaaaaaa…rgh…..

  212. Perhaps one of you folks in the UK can clear up for me just where things are.
    Ahahahahahahahhahaaaaaaa…rgh…..

  213. I would not be amazed if Roberts ends up president with a degree of impartiality (though that’s hardly certain).
    Is there something missing here? Roberts is not in the line of succession.

  214. I would not be amazed if Roberts ends up president with a degree of impartiality (though that’s hardly certain).
    Is there something missing here? Roberts is not in the line of succession.

  219. Yeah, I think Roberts still cares enough about his reputation in legal circles that he’ll run things in a reasonable fashion. The current Senate rules give him a largely unlimited hand once the gavel is handed to him. The Senate can overrule him on procedure, point by point, but I don’t think McConnell will be able to find 51 votes to do that.

  220. Yeah, I think Roberts still cares enough about his reputation in legal circles that he’ll run things in a reasonable fashion. The current Senate rules give him a largely unlimited hand once the gavel is handed to him. The Senate can overrule him on procedure, point by point, but I don’t think McConnell will be able to find 51 votes to do that.

  225. Are there enough Republican Senators who will risk the contempt of history if the evidence is sufficiently clear even to the biased observer ?
    yes. every single one of them who wants to stay in the Senate will vote against removal.
    defecting would utterly doom them in their next primary election.

  226. Are there enough Republican Senators who will risk the contempt of history if the evidence is sufficiently clear even to the biased observer ?
    yes. every single one of them who wants to stay in the Senate will vote against removal.
    defecting would utterly doom them in their next primary election.

  229. Aren’t there a couple retiring… and Romney might just be thinking about legacy ?
    I want to hear what Macron is saying about Corbyn.
    Need to brush up on your French obscenities ?

  230. Aren’t there a couple retiring… and Romney might just be thinking about legacy ?
    I want to hear what Macron is saying about Corbyn.
    Need to brush up on your French obscenities ?

  231. sure. but it will take 20 GOP Senators to remove him. that’s not likely to happen, with Trump’s approval with the GOP base still in the upped 80s.
    if the approval gets down to 50% or something, it would start making sense to defect. but at 87%, defecting is just suicide.
    in my estimation.

  232. sure. but it will take 20 GOP Senators to remove him. that’s not likely to happen, with Trump’s approval with the GOP base still in the upped 80s.
    if the approval gets down to 50% or something, it would start making sense to defect. but at 87%, defecting is just suicide.
    in my estimation.

  233. Need to brush up on your French obscenities?
    Something like that.
    I was reading a conspiracy theory piece the other day that hypothesized Boris and Macron are in cahoots to push Brexit through next month. As conspiracy theories go it wasn’t bad. It made at least as much sense as reality seems to these days.

  234. Need to brush up on your French obscenities?
    Something like that.
    I was reading a conspiracy theory piece the other day that hypothesized Boris and Macron are in cahoots to push Brexit through next month. As conspiracy theories go it wasn’t bad. It made at least as much sense as reality seems to these days.

  235. I want to hear what Macron is saying about Corbyn
    Don’t know about French obsenities. But I can definitely see some biting remarks on the theme of how, absent Corbyn, the UK would get rid of Boris and improve everyone’s quality of life.

  236. I want to hear what Macron is saying about Corbyn
    Don’t know about French obsenities. But I can definitely see some biting remarks on the theme of how, absent Corbyn, the UK would get rid of Boris and improve everyone’s quality of life.

  239. Do any of the Europeans here know how big a change Michel from Belgium might be when he takes over from Tusk as EU Council President on Dec 1? I’ve noticed that every time an extension has been requested, Tusk is in front of the cameras almost immediately to announce he’s recommended to the EU Council members that they grant the request. Is Michel likely to be the same way?

  240. Do any of the Europeans here know how big a change Michel from Belgium might be when he takes over from Tusk as EU Council President on Dec 1? I’ve noticed that every time an extension has been requested, Tusk is in front of the cameras almost immediately to announce he’s recommended to the EU Council members that they grant the request. Is Michel likely to be the same way?

  241. President Trump was awarded the Bipartisan Justice Award today.
    JDT, I read that and had to double check whether I was looking at something from the Onion. “Bipartisan”??? “Justice”??? Trump?!?!? Gotta be an alternate universe.

  242. President Trump was awarded the Bipartisan Justice Award today.
    JDT, I read that and had to double check whether I was looking at something from the Onion. “Bipartisan”??? “Justice”??? Trump?!?!? Gotta be an alternate universe.

  245. Where to start. A joint US-Kurdish operation took out Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS.
    In the announcement from Trump we find out that
    1) he’d like us to think this was bigger than bin Laden. No obvious reason, other than bin Laden having been taken down under Obama.
    2) because he was worried about leaks jeopardizing the operation, he didn’t give the Speaker of the House and other Congressional Democratic leaders an advance heads-up. But he did give the Russians advance warning. Because, apparently, Russians are more trustworthy than Democrats.
    3) even though it was a joint operation with the Kurds, Trump’s thanks for assistance mentioned Russia (who did nothing) first, then Syria, Turkey and Iraq. He added that there was also “certain support [the Kurds] were able to give us.” Well, I suppose it would have been awkward to credit the Kurds much, after hanging them out to dry.

  246. Where to start. A joint US-Kurdish operation took out Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS.
    In the announcement from Trump we find out that
    1) he’d like us to think this was bigger than bin Laden. No obvious reason, other than bin Laden having been taken down under Obama.
    2) because he was worried about leaks jeopardizing the operation, he didn’t give the Speaker of the House and other Congressional Democratic leaders an advance heads-up. But he did give the Russians advance warning. Because, apparently, Russians are more trustworthy than Democrats.
    3) even though it was a joint operation with the Kurds, Trump’s thanks for assistance mentioned Russia (who did nothing) first, then Syria, Turkey and Iraq. He added that there was also “certain support [the Kurds] were able to give us.” Well, I suppose it would have been awkward to credit the Kurds much, after hanging them out to dry.

  249. wj, the Russian are (imo) actually more trustworthy concerning keeping their mouths shut until after the operation. Several (GOP) congresscritters on the other hand are (demonstrably) not.
    And Putin does not love the Islamists any more than the West* (maybe even less).
    *I just noticed that this sentence is ambiguous but both possible meanings do apply (Putin not loving the West either and neither loving the Islamists)

  250. wj, the Russian are (imo) actually more trustworthy concerning keeping their mouths shut until after the operation. Several (GOP) congresscritters on the other hand are (demonstrably) not.
    And Putin does not love the Islamists any more than the West* (maybe even less).
    *I just noticed that this sentence is ambiguous but both possible meanings do apply (Putin not loving the West either and neither loving the Islamists)

  251. But he did give the Russians advance warning. Because, apparently, Russians are more trustworthy than Democrats.
    I just assumed they filed a complete flight plan with both the Russians and the Syrians so the helicopters didn’t get shot down. The operation was easily within range of the air defense systems the US has been systematically avoiding and helicopters are easy targets.

  252. But he did give the Russians advance warning. Because, apparently, Russians are more trustworthy than Democrats.
    I just assumed they filed a complete flight plan with both the Russians and the Syrians so the helicopters didn’t get shot down. The operation was easily within range of the air defense systems the US has been systematically avoiding and helicopters are easy targets.

  253. wj, the Russian are (imo) actually more trustworthy concerning keeping their mouths shut until after the operation.
    Hartmut, just to clarify something you probably already knew: wj’s point is that he trusted the Russians’ discretion more than that of Pelosi and the Democrats. It’s almost as if he thought he had more responsibility to a foreign power than coequal branches of the US government.

  254. wj, the Russian are (imo) actually more trustworthy concerning keeping their mouths shut until after the operation.
    Hartmut, just to clarify something you probably already knew: wj’s point is that he trusted the Russians’ discretion more than that of Pelosi and the Democrats. It’s almost as if he thought he had more responsibility to a foreign power than coequal branches of the US government.

  255. “He died after running into a dead end tunnel, whimpering and crying and screaming all the way,” Trump said.”
    And here we have a foreshadowing of the nature, if you add in the shitting of his trousers, of p’s coming pathetic demise as well, along with his armed loyalists (hundreds of the vermin) barricaded in the penthouse at Mar-A-Lago, after months of refusing to vacate the Office of the Presidency by order of the rule of law and pitched gun battles between murderous republican militias/armed evangelical martyrs and U.S. troops surrounding the building, and this after defaulting, by Presidential decree, on the Federal debt in order to de-fund the impeachment process itself and attempting the arrests and imprisonment of prominent members of the Democratic Party ordered by consigliere Barr.
    The last resort of checks and balances on this rogue subhuman republican conservative movement will be their bodies piled in every Fifth Avenue in every city in the country, since the Constitution is absolutely useless in dealing with these filth.

  256. “He died after running into a dead end tunnel, whimpering and crying and screaming all the way,” Trump said.”
    And here we have a foreshadowing of the nature, if you add in the shitting of his trousers, of p’s coming pathetic demise as well, along with his armed loyalists (hundreds of the vermin) barricaded in the penthouse at Mar-A-Lago, after months of refusing to vacate the Office of the Presidency by order of the rule of law and pitched gun battles between murderous republican militias/armed evangelical martyrs and U.S. troops surrounding the building, and this after defaulting, by Presidential decree, on the Federal debt in order to de-fund the impeachment process itself and attempting the arrests and imprisonment of prominent members of the Democratic Party ordered by consigliere Barr.
    The last resort of checks and balances on this rogue subhuman republican conservative movement will be their bodies piled in every Fifth Avenue in every city in the country, since the Constitution is absolutely useless in dealing with these filth.

  257. “It’s almost as if he thought he had more responsibility to a foreign power than coequal branches of the US government.”
    There is no “almost” or “as if” about it.
    And the word “coequal” is defunct when it comes to this rogue government.

  258. “It’s almost as if he thought he had more responsibility to a foreign power than coequal branches of the US government.”
    There is no “almost” or “as if” about it.
    And the word “coequal” is defunct when it comes to this rogue government.

  259. via Juanita Jean:
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/26/politics/john-kelly-trump-yes-man/index.html
    ‘White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham added, “I worked with John Kelly, and he was totally unequipped to handle the genius of our great President.”‘
    I agree that John Kelly was totally unequipped to handle p.
    After all, he did not carry a semi-automatic weapon with him in the White House.
    Grisham, the first Press Secretary to never hold a White House press conference, somehow managed to emit these words from her pie hole despite it being fully occupied with p’s nether parts.

  260. via Juanita Jean:
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/26/politics/john-kelly-trump-yes-man/index.html
    ‘White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham added, “I worked with John Kelly, and he was totally unequipped to handle the genius of our great President.”‘
    I agree that John Kelly was totally unequipped to handle p.
    After all, he did not carry a semi-automatic weapon with him in the White House.
    Grisham, the first Press Secretary to never hold a White House press conference, somehow managed to emit these words from her pie hole despite it being fully occupied with p’s nether parts.

  261. Look what Reagan’s astrologer, Milton Friedman, and the Chicago School did:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/10/27/1894748/-Venezuela-is-a-strawman-If-you-want-a-glimpse-of-the-United-States-future-look-at-Chile#read-more
    Money quote:
    ‘I was talking to a conservative friend recently and he said to me: “Our universities are being overtaken by communists.”
    I showed him the new $120 million business school building being built on our campus. I then suggested that when he could show me one campus with a $120 million Communism building, I would believe that our campuses were being overrun by communists.’

  262. Look what Reagan’s astrologer, Milton Friedman, and the Chicago School did:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/10/27/1894748/-Venezuela-is-a-strawman-If-you-want-a-glimpse-of-the-United-States-future-look-at-Chile#read-more
    Money quote:
    ‘I was talking to a conservative friend recently and he said to me: “Our universities are being overtaken by communists.”
    I showed him the new $120 million business school building being built on our campus. I then suggested that when he could show me one campus with a $120 million Communism building, I would believe that our campuses were being overrun by communists.’

  263. I have it on good authority** (good memory, actually) that our universities had already been taken over by godless communists in the 1960s. Maybe earlier, but I wasn’t paying attention then. So there’s no way they could be in the process of being taken over now.
    ** That would be the horrified arch-conservatives (John Birchers, etc.) of the time.

  264. I have it on good authority** (good memory, actually) that our universities had already been taken over by godless communists in the 1960s. Maybe earlier, but I wasn’t paying attention then. So there’s no way they could be in the process of being taken over now.
    ** That would be the horrified arch-conservatives (John Birchers, etc.) of the time.

  267. Good money, not least because it apparently isn’t possible to saturate the market. They just keep buying and buying and buying….

  268. Good money, not least because it apparently isn’t possible to saturate the market. They just keep buying and buying and buying….

  269. I’m laughing about the furore over the WaPo’s description of Al-Baghdadi as an “austere religious scholar”, as if this is necessarily a complimentary description as opposed to what might be an accurate but morally neutral one. I believe that ISIS was as foul an entity as is possible to imagine, and its repercussions for Yazidis, women, and civilians in general living in their so-called caliphate totally horrific, but only in Gilead could this description (which has, no doubt, applied to many of the most appalling men in history) be seen as necessarily complimentary.

  270. I’m laughing about the furore over the WaPo’s description of Al-Baghdadi as an “austere religious scholar”, as if this is necessarily a complimentary description as opposed to what might be an accurate but morally neutral one. I believe that ISIS was as foul an entity as is possible to imagine, and its repercussions for Yazidis, women, and civilians in general living in their so-called caliphate totally horrific, but only in Gilead could this description (which has, no doubt, applied to many of the most appalling men in history) be seen as necessarily complimentary.

  277. Yeah, the winds around here are howling like it was a major storm. Tree limbs down and everything. Except the sky is clear (albeit hazy with smoke) and it’s bone dry.

  278. Yeah, the winds around here are howling like it was a major storm. Tree limbs down and everything. Except the sky is clear (albeit hazy with smoke) and it’s bone dry.

  281. Yeah, the winds around here are howling like it was a major storm… Except the sky is clear…
    When we moved to the West 30-some years ago, it took a while to get used to the idea of 80+ mph straight-line winds under a clear sky and sun/stars. We live about 12 miles from the National Center for Atmospheric Research, which is (intentionally) located at the mouth of one of the canyons. NCAR has clocked straight-line winds as high as 147 mph.
    A dozen years ago during a homeland security public policy class, I asked the guest speaker from the state organization about how bad things could get if a half-dozen pairs of terrorists spent a summer afternoon/evening driving the back roads in the national forests during a high wind warning, tossing a lit road flare into the woods every half mile or so. His expression said (a) they had thought about it and (b) perhaps arresting me on the spot would be a good idea.
    Stay safe, man. No one outruns a fire when it gets those kinds of wind behind it.

  282. Yeah, the winds around here are howling like it was a major storm… Except the sky is clear…
    When we moved to the West 30-some years ago, it took a while to get used to the idea of 80+ mph straight-line winds under a clear sky and sun/stars. We live about 12 miles from the National Center for Atmospheric Research, which is (intentionally) located at the mouth of one of the canyons. NCAR has clocked straight-line winds as high as 147 mph.
    A dozen years ago during a homeland security public policy class, I asked the guest speaker from the state organization about how bad things could get if a half-dozen pairs of terrorists spent a summer afternoon/evening driving the back roads in the national forests during a high wind warning, tossing a lit road flare into the woods every half mile or so. His expression said (a) they had thought about it and (b) perhaps arresting me on the spot would be a good idea.
    Stay safe, man. No one outruns a fire when it gets those kinds of wind behind it.

  283. I attended meetings at NCAR many decades ago, while working for Department of the Interior weather scientists.
    If you merely sweep the forest floors with small brooms daily, there is no chance that a spark could catch alight in a 147 mph windstorm.
    With that deep state advice from on high, there really is no need to fund the elitist NCAR quacks, now tied to chairs in the basement of the building and gagged, or the Forest Service for that matter.
    By the way, the latest free advisory from the conservative republican science office at the White House, located in p’s lower intestine, is that Californians should in fact run faster away from the fires like real Americans have been running from hoaxes since 1776.
    Hatpins to keep your MAGA hats on while running in high winds can be purchased at the Republican Party merchandise website: http/fuckoffandburnbabyburn.com

  284. I attended meetings at NCAR many decades ago, while working for Department of the Interior weather scientists.
    If you merely sweep the forest floors with small brooms daily, there is no chance that a spark could catch alight in a 147 mph windstorm.
    With that deep state advice from on high, there really is no need to fund the elitist NCAR quacks, now tied to chairs in the basement of the building and gagged, or the Forest Service for that matter.
    By the way, the latest free advisory from the conservative republican science office at the White House, located in p’s lower intestine, is that Californians should in fact run faster away from the fires like real Americans have been running from hoaxes since 1776.
    Hatpins to keep your MAGA hats on while running in high winds can be purchased at the Republican Party merchandise website: http/fuckoffandburnbabyburn.com

  285. The biggest single source of the high fire danger, it appears, is that we have been too good at preventing forest fires.
    Left to nature, fires go thru moderate sized areas all the time. But they don’t get further because they run into places that got burned a couple years previous, where there isn’t built up piles of fuel lying on the forest floor. However, by helpfully putting out fires as fast as possible, we allowed huge amounts of fuel to build up across wide areas. So now, when a fire gets going and gets a little wind behind it, it can explode and just keep exploding across a wide area.
    Relatively recently, the idea of letting small fires burn (or even doing control burns, when there is little wind and lots of water available to control the size) has caught on. But there is still a lot of decades of “helpful fire prevention” to be overcome.
    And, naturally, the drought driven in part by climate change just makes things worse. (Or would, if climate change was real, rather than banned from Federal government publications.)

  286. The biggest single source of the high fire danger, it appears, is that we have been too good at preventing forest fires.
    Left to nature, fires go thru moderate sized areas all the time. But they don’t get further because they run into places that got burned a couple years previous, where there isn’t built up piles of fuel lying on the forest floor. However, by helpfully putting out fires as fast as possible, we allowed huge amounts of fuel to build up across wide areas. So now, when a fire gets going and gets a little wind behind it, it can explode and just keep exploding across a wide area.
    Relatively recently, the idea of letting small fires burn (or even doing control burns, when there is little wind and lots of water available to control the size) has caught on. But there is still a lot of decades of “helpful fire prevention” to be overcome.
    And, naturally, the drought driven in part by climate change just makes things worse. (Or would, if climate change was real, rather than banned from Federal government publications.)

  287. Washington Post obituary: “Jeffrey Dahmer, a connoisseur of exotic and locally sourced meats, dies at 34.”

  288. Washington Post obituary: “Jeffrey Dahmer, a connoisseur of exotic and locally sourced meats, dies at 34.”

  289. CharlesWT: Possibly the remedy is to cancel your subscription to the Post. Same as: I don’t really get FoxNews.
    I was going to post a much more inappropriate thing, but I’ve been schooled by the tone policemen here. Thanks teachers!

  290. CharlesWT: Possibly the remedy is to cancel your subscription to the Post. Same as: I don’t really get FoxNews.
    I was going to post a much more inappropriate thing, but I’ve been schooled by the tone policemen here. Thanks teachers!

  291. The biggest single source of the high fire danger, it appears, is that we have been too good at preventing forest fires.
    because we have to, until we invent fire-proof houses to build in the middle of fire-prone forests.

  292. The biggest single source of the high fire danger, it appears, is that we have been too good at preventing forest fires.
    because we have to, until we invent fire-proof houses to build in the middle of fire-prone forests.

  293. Such houses are of course technically possible but (most) people would not want to live in them. Maginot style residential housing for some ineffable reason never really caught on.

  294. Such houses are of course technically possible but (most) people would not want to live in them. Maginot style residential housing for some ineffable reason never really caught on.

  295. because we have to, until we invent fire-proof houses to build in the middle of fire-prone forests.
    For the least 60 years, yeah. For the 60 or so before that, because the timber companies convinced Congress that letting even one tree they might eventually be allowed to harvest burn was a great economic loss.
    It is sad that in hindsight the best argument for letting the individual states be responsible for the vast western public lands would be “they can’t afford to conduct a total fire suppression policy.”

  296. because we have to, until we invent fire-proof houses to build in the middle of fire-prone forests.
    For the least 60 years, yeah. For the 60 or so before that, because the timber companies convinced Congress that letting even one tree they might eventually be allowed to harvest burn was a great economic loss.
    It is sad that in hindsight the best argument for letting the individual states be responsible for the vast western public lands would be “they can’t afford to conduct a total fire suppression policy.”

  311. Americans always underestimate the competence of the governments which represent them to do what’s best, and, in doing so, insure the incompetence of those governments by electing know-nothing fucks.
    One knife, two edges.
    Americans, each of us, also believe we know precisely how to do each others’ jobs, yet we also, each of us, don’t believe anyone else has the right to tell us how to our jobs.
    The plumber is an attorney, the candlestick maker is a doctor, the doctor is an astronaut, the beekeeper is a policeman, the shareholder is a CEO, the CEO is a janitor, the janitor is a shareholder, the writer is a critic, the comedian is an audience member, the audience member is a comedian, a critic, and a writer none are taxpayers if they can cheat their way out of it, and cheaters are the winners, and all expertise is questionable at best, except our own, and if you want something done, do it yourself sez the plumber, the attorney, the candlestick maker, the doctor, the astronaut, the CEO, the janitor, the taxpayer, the shareholder and bullshit artist at the end of the bar, who is the only one is correct about anything, because … bullshit.
    Why, if I was you …
    Why, what you oughta do ..
    You know what I would do, if I were that guy. Why, I’d ….
    Listen up, maybe you’ll learn something …
    Let me tell ya the way things work, sonny …
    Jerry Seinfeld made a funny observation. If you get a homeless guy together with another homeless guy, inevitably one of them decides he’s the expert and is telling the other one in authoritative tones what to do and how to do it.
    Do what?
    Nothing.
    America would to do well just to have a National Shut The Fuck Up Month.

  312. Americans always underestimate the competence of the governments which represent them to do what’s best, and, in doing so, insure the incompetence of those governments by electing know-nothing fucks.
    One knife, two edges.
    Americans, each of us, also believe we know precisely how to do each others’ jobs, yet we also, each of us, don’t believe anyone else has the right to tell us how to our jobs.
    The plumber is an attorney, the candlestick maker is a doctor, the doctor is an astronaut, the beekeeper is a policeman, the shareholder is a CEO, the CEO is a janitor, the janitor is a shareholder, the writer is a critic, the comedian is an audience member, the audience member is a comedian, a critic, and a writer none are taxpayers if they can cheat their way out of it, and cheaters are the winners, and all expertise is questionable at best, except our own, and if you want something done, do it yourself sez the plumber, the attorney, the candlestick maker, the doctor, the astronaut, the CEO, the janitor, the taxpayer, the shareholder and bullshit artist at the end of the bar, who is the only one is correct about anything, because … bullshit.
    Why, if I was you …
    Why, what you oughta do ..
    You know what I would do, if I were that guy. Why, I’d ….
    Listen up, maybe you’ll learn something …
    Let me tell ya the way things work, sonny …
    Jerry Seinfeld made a funny observation. If you get a homeless guy together with another homeless guy, inevitably one of them decides he’s the expert and is telling the other one in authoritative tones what to do and how to do it.
    Do what?
    Nothing.
    America would to do well just to have a National Shut The Fuck Up Month.

  315. generally always 🙂
    Anecdota:
    My wife and I went up to Montreal for a long weekend. On our way into the city from the airport, our driver pointed out the new hospital downtown.
    All new, he said. All modern. And free.
    We rode the Metro all around the city. Clean, efficient, works great.
    Rich history there, with many historical sites preserved. The city has a program going on now where they project brief videos on large building surfaces, telling the history of the city as stories about people. Warts and all, actually. It’s nice for people to understand the history of their community. It fosters a sense of having something in common.
    Nice parks, nicely maintained. Beautiful public botanical garden. Funny goofy decorated pumpkins for the kiddos, who were having a ball with it all.
    Lights were on, water ran from the tap, roads were all pretty good.
    Everywhere you go there, there are separate waste receptacles for paper recycle, plastic recycle, and landfill trash. People just use them, without bitching about it.
    Government.
    So, WTF, libertarians?
    Governments are precisely as good as the people in them. No better, no worse. Some governments are really good at doing the things that governments do. Some aren’t. The ones that are, are so, because the people in them think that doing government-y things – planning, implementing, and managing public goods and services, for the public, in the public interest – is actually worthwhile. Actually worth their time, attention, and best effort. And they consider themselves responsible to the people they represent and serve.
    It happens every fncking day, everywhere all around the world. Nothing magic or mysterious about it.
    It just doesn’t happen here, very much. At a minimum, there is damned little respect for it, whether it happens or not. Perhaps those things are related.
    Lotsa reasons that might be so. I have my own theories. But what is plainly in evidence is that there is nothing about “government” per se that is any better or worse than any other thing that people do.
    In some places people give a shit about what happens in public life, outside of their own personal little bubble, and have a basic human respect for the people who try to make the right things happen. In others, people don’t.
    Wish I lived in a place where people did.

  316. generally always 🙂
    Anecdota:
    My wife and I went up to Montreal for a long weekend. On our way into the city from the airport, our driver pointed out the new hospital downtown.
    All new, he said. All modern. And free.
    We rode the Metro all around the city. Clean, efficient, works great.
    Rich history there, with many historical sites preserved. The city has a program going on now where they project brief videos on large building surfaces, telling the history of the city as stories about people. Warts and all, actually. It’s nice for people to understand the history of their community. It fosters a sense of having something in common.
    Nice parks, nicely maintained. Beautiful public botanical garden. Funny goofy decorated pumpkins for the kiddos, who were having a ball with it all.
    Lights were on, water ran from the tap, roads were all pretty good.
    Everywhere you go there, there are separate waste receptacles for paper recycle, plastic recycle, and landfill trash. People just use them, without bitching about it.
    Government.
    So, WTF, libertarians?
    Governments are precisely as good as the people in them. No better, no worse. Some governments are really good at doing the things that governments do. Some aren’t. The ones that are, are so, because the people in them think that doing government-y things – planning, implementing, and managing public goods and services, for the public, in the public interest – is actually worthwhile. Actually worth their time, attention, and best effort. And they consider themselves responsible to the people they represent and serve.
    It happens every fncking day, everywhere all around the world. Nothing magic or mysterious about it.
    It just doesn’t happen here, very much. At a minimum, there is damned little respect for it, whether it happens or not. Perhaps those things are related.
    Lotsa reasons that might be so. I have my own theories. But what is plainly in evidence is that there is nothing about “government” per se that is any better or worse than any other thing that people do.
    In some places people give a shit about what happens in public life, outside of their own personal little bubble, and have a basic human respect for the people who try to make the right things happen. In others, people don’t.
    Wish I lived in a place where people did.

  317. ‘our driver pointed out the new hospital downtown.
    “All new, he said. All modern. And free.
    We rode the Metro all around the city. Clean, efficient, works great.
    Rich history there, with many historical sites preserved. The city has a program going on now where they project brief videos on large building surfaces, telling the history of the city as stories about people. Warts and all, actually. It’s nice for people to understand the history of their community. It fosters a sense of having something in common.
    Nice parks, nicely maintained. Beautiful public botanical garden. Funny goofy decorated pumpkins for the kiddos, who were having a ball with it all.
    Lights were on, water ran from the tap, roads were all pretty good.”‘
    Such are the dreadful, commie depredations of socialism.
    And this …: “Everywhere you go there, there are separate waste receptacles for paper recycle, plastic recycle, and landfill trash. People just use them, without bitching about it.”
    … is Stalinist to the bedrock. This is exactly how Ukraine was starved into submission, it started with recycling and not being able to use the politically incorrect words “nigger”, “fag”, and before you knew it, the wheat and livestock were confiscated and sent to Moscow to feed the many Guilianis wives of the day.
    One quibble. It’s not free, but everyone pays and everyone gets, unlike the States where only some get and everyone winches about paying, even when they don’t pay … assholes.
    And look here, the Toronto Stock Exchange Index has gone straight to zero under socialism:
    https://www.forecast-chart.com/historical-tsx-composite.html
    And look here too, Afghanistan is safer than Chicago and Montreal according to expert studies by deep fucking stupid:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFBVVIn57U
    In Afghanistan, republicans and conservatives can carry military weaponry in the streets and be blown away and their bodies left to rot in the streets, but it’s all for free. They don’t have to pay taxes, so pure freedom.

  318. ‘our driver pointed out the new hospital downtown.
    “All new, he said. All modern. And free.
    We rode the Metro all around the city. Clean, efficient, works great.
    Rich history there, with many historical sites preserved. The city has a program going on now where they project brief videos on large building surfaces, telling the history of the city as stories about people. Warts and all, actually. It’s nice for people to understand the history of their community. It fosters a sense of having something in common.
    Nice parks, nicely maintained. Beautiful public botanical garden. Funny goofy decorated pumpkins for the kiddos, who were having a ball with it all.
    Lights were on, water ran from the tap, roads were all pretty good.”‘
    Such are the dreadful, commie depredations of socialism.
    And this …: “Everywhere you go there, there are separate waste receptacles for paper recycle, plastic recycle, and landfill trash. People just use them, without bitching about it.”
    … is Stalinist to the bedrock. This is exactly how Ukraine was starved into submission, it started with recycling and not being able to use the politically incorrect words “nigger”, “fag”, and before you knew it, the wheat and livestock were confiscated and sent to Moscow to feed the many Guilianis wives of the day.
    One quibble. It’s not free, but everyone pays and everyone gets, unlike the States where only some get and everyone winches about paying, even when they don’t pay … assholes.
    And look here, the Toronto Stock Exchange Index has gone straight to zero under socialism:
    https://www.forecast-chart.com/historical-tsx-composite.html
    And look here too, Afghanistan is safer than Chicago and Montreal according to expert studies by deep fucking stupid:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFBVVIn57U
    In Afghanistan, republicans and conservatives can carry military weaponry in the streets and be blown away and their bodies left to rot in the streets, but it’s all for free. They don’t have to pay taxes, so pure freedom.

  319. In some places people give a shit about what happens in public life, outside of their own personal little bubble, and have a basic human respect for the people who try to make the right things happen. In others, people don’t.
    Perhaps it is useful to regard libertarianism as a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a bunch of people, for philosophical reasons, decide that government is a terrible thing, then that’s the kind of government they will get.

  320. In some places people give a shit about what happens in public life, outside of their own personal little bubble, and have a basic human respect for the people who try to make the right things happen. In others, people don’t.
    Perhaps it is useful to regard libertarianism as a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a bunch of people, for philosophical reasons, decide that government is a terrible thing, then that’s the kind of government they will get.

  321. Governments are precisely as good as the people in them.
    Amen.
    But sometimes the people in government (regular old bureaucrats) are so much better than their elected bosses. We’re seeing this play out now in a very sad drama. Hope we can recover someday.

  322. Governments are precisely as good as the people in them.
    Amen.
    But sometimes the people in government (regular old bureaucrats) are so much better than their elected bosses. We’re seeing this play out now in a very sad drama. Hope we can recover someday.

  323. One quibble. It’s not free
    Yes, obviously it is not. It costs money to build a great big freaking building in the middle of a large city, outfit it with modern medical technology, staff it with trained and competent medical providers and support staff, and keep the whole thing running.
    Millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars.
    And the people of Canada pay for it, most likely by paying taxes.
    And the consequence of that is that Canadians pay a bit less than half of what we pay per capita for health care.
    It’s the difference between “I’ll chip in for that so that we can all have it” and “I’m not gonna pay for something that guy over there is gonna use”.
    I’ve pretty much lost all respect for this country, because we appear to be too fncking stupid lazy and bone ignorant to come in out of the damned rain. We crap in our own pants and then crow about what an outstanding thing we have produced.
    I’m ashamed to be an American. I struggle to find anything sound or wholesome in our national character or deportment anymore. All we care about is money and “being number one” in some farcical category or other. We think we are great, or “great again”, but we are not. We just have a lot of money and great big guns.
    That is a fucking mafiosi’s idea of being great. A bully’s idea of being great. An insecure, ignorant, asshole’s idea of being great.
    The kind of insecure, ignorant asshole that thinks shitting in a gold toilet is cool.
    That is what we in large part are, and where we are heading.
    My old man spent four years below decks in WWII, keeping the engines running on a crappy little troop transport, wondering if this was the day something or other was going to crash through the wall and send him to the bottom of the fucking Pacific Ocean. Four fucking years away from his wife and home, floating around in an ocean of death and mayhem. I’m glad he’s not alive to see this bullshit.
    An Algerian dude drove me and my wife from the airport to our hotel, and he could not stop himself from bragging about the marvelous city and country that he now called home. Look at our beautiful new hospital – all new, all modern, and free! He understood it was not actually free, no doubt he is a taxpayer and some hours of his life have been spent working to make that hospital a reality.
    What he meant by “free” was look, look at this wonderful thing that we have made for ourselves, and anyone can have it, just because they live here. It doesn’t matter if they are rich or poor, man or woman, gay or straight, black brown yellow red or white, Christian Moslem Hindu Jew Buddhist what have you.
    If you live here, and you’re sick, you can go the hospital and they will take care of you, and you don’t have to worry about how you will pay for it.
    If that’s not freedom, I don’t know what the fuck freedom is.
    It literally made me cry. It’s making me cry now, writing this. It makes me cry for how shallow and mean and fearful and resentful and small-hearted we have become.
    WTF, America. Who did this to you? What happened to you?
    I cannot respect anyone who looks at the state of the nation today and says yes, this is what greatness looks like. We should hang our heads in shame.

  324. One quibble. It’s not free
    Yes, obviously it is not. It costs money to build a great big freaking building in the middle of a large city, outfit it with modern medical technology, staff it with trained and competent medical providers and support staff, and keep the whole thing running.
    Millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars.
    And the people of Canada pay for it, most likely by paying taxes.
    And the consequence of that is that Canadians pay a bit less than half of what we pay per capita for health care.
    It’s the difference between “I’ll chip in for that so that we can all have it” and “I’m not gonna pay for something that guy over there is gonna use”.
    I’ve pretty much lost all respect for this country, because we appear to be too fncking stupid lazy and bone ignorant to come in out of the damned rain. We crap in our own pants and then crow about what an outstanding thing we have produced.
    I’m ashamed to be an American. I struggle to find anything sound or wholesome in our national character or deportment anymore. All we care about is money and “being number one” in some farcical category or other. We think we are great, or “great again”, but we are not. We just have a lot of money and great big guns.
    That is a fucking mafiosi’s idea of being great. A bully’s idea of being great. An insecure, ignorant, asshole’s idea of being great.
    The kind of insecure, ignorant asshole that thinks shitting in a gold toilet is cool.
    That is what we in large part are, and where we are heading.
    My old man spent four years below decks in WWII, keeping the engines running on a crappy little troop transport, wondering if this was the day something or other was going to crash through the wall and send him to the bottom of the fucking Pacific Ocean. Four fucking years away from his wife and home, floating around in an ocean of death and mayhem. I’m glad he’s not alive to see this bullshit.
    An Algerian dude drove me and my wife from the airport to our hotel, and he could not stop himself from bragging about the marvelous city and country that he now called home. Look at our beautiful new hospital – all new, all modern, and free! He understood it was not actually free, no doubt he is a taxpayer and some hours of his life have been spent working to make that hospital a reality.
    What he meant by “free” was look, look at this wonderful thing that we have made for ourselves, and anyone can have it, just because they live here. It doesn’t matter if they are rich or poor, man or woman, gay or straight, black brown yellow red or white, Christian Moslem Hindu Jew Buddhist what have you.
    If you live here, and you’re sick, you can go the hospital and they will take care of you, and you don’t have to worry about how you will pay for it.
    If that’s not freedom, I don’t know what the fuck freedom is.
    It literally made me cry. It’s making me cry now, writing this. It makes me cry for how shallow and mean and fearful and resentful and small-hearted we have become.
    WTF, America. Who did this to you? What happened to you?
    I cannot respect anyone who looks at the state of the nation today and says yes, this is what greatness looks like. We should hang our heads in shame.

  327. WTF, America. Who did this to you? What happened to you?
    In essence, we went from believing that anyone who worked hard could succeed, and that was great. To somehow thinking that success was limited, so in order to win we had to make sure everybody else lost. And then got focused on the making-others-lose part, to the exclusion of the working-to-succeed part.
    Trump is merely the epitome of “me winning requires that everybody else lose” — as the embodiment of a philosophy, it is perhaps not surprising that he is adored by his co-believers. The good news is that, even now, they are a minority. (Perhaps part of why they hate/fear immigrants is that immigrants are very much in the work-to-succeed camp.)

  328. WTF, America. Who did this to you? What happened to you?
    In essence, we went from believing that anyone who worked hard could succeed, and that was great. To somehow thinking that success was limited, so in order to win we had to make sure everybody else lost. And then got focused on the making-others-lose part, to the exclusion of the working-to-succeed part.
    Trump is merely the epitome of “me winning requires that everybody else lose” — as the embodiment of a philosophy, it is perhaps not surprising that he is adored by his co-believers. The good news is that, even now, they are a minority. (Perhaps part of why they hate/fear immigrants is that immigrants are very much in the work-to-succeed camp.)

  331. Lack of small donations to that extent does lead one to wonder just how soft that high poll number support actually is.

  332. Lack of small donations to that extent does lead one to wonder just how soft that high poll number support actually is.

  333. It literally made me cry. It’s making me cry now, writing this. It makes me cry for how shallow and mean and fearful and resentful and small-hearted we have become.
    russell, this and your whole two posts are beyond upsetting to read. Mainly because you yourself are the diametric opposite of all the things you characterise America as having become. Any country that would have you would be lucky, and America has, as wj implies, plenty who are more like you than are like Trump and his henchthugs. But the point about “any country that would have you” is that unfortunately, like a spreading stain, plenty of countries are going the same way as the US, albeit more slowly. I don’t know where this contagion started, and I think wj’s analysis is, I regret to say, inadequate. But whatever the cause, there is plenty of it about – despite the totemic love for the NHS for example, you have only to hear various Brit voxpops complaining about the help given to desperate, fleeing refugees to realise what a despicable rough beast, its hour come round at last is loosed upon the world.
    Clearly, I have no prescriptions, or even adequate explanation. But what I do know is that people like you are the only possible bulwark against the eventual complete triumph of this horrible thing, and that despair is disabling. Probably condescending coming from such an inadequate source, and not particularly helpful, I know. But it still needs to be said.

  334. It literally made me cry. It’s making me cry now, writing this. It makes me cry for how shallow and mean and fearful and resentful and small-hearted we have become.
    russell, this and your whole two posts are beyond upsetting to read. Mainly because you yourself are the diametric opposite of all the things you characterise America as having become. Any country that would have you would be lucky, and America has, as wj implies, plenty who are more like you than are like Trump and his henchthugs. But the point about “any country that would have you” is that unfortunately, like a spreading stain, plenty of countries are going the same way as the US, albeit more slowly. I don’t know where this contagion started, and I think wj’s analysis is, I regret to say, inadequate. But whatever the cause, there is plenty of it about – despite the totemic love for the NHS for example, you have only to hear various Brit voxpops complaining about the help given to desperate, fleeing refugees to realise what a despicable rough beast, its hour come round at last is loosed upon the world.
    Clearly, I have no prescriptions, or even adequate explanation. But what I do know is that people like you are the only possible bulwark against the eventual complete triumph of this horrible thing, and that despair is disabling. Probably condescending coming from such an inadequate source, and not particularly helpful, I know. But it still needs to be said.

  335. I am most unhappy about many things in this country but being enamored with Canada is not realistic, every asylum seeker on our southern border would be rejected by Canada:
    “To come to Canada as a refugee, you must be referred. The United Nations Refugee Agency (UNHCR), a designated referral organization, or a private sponsorship group can refer you. You cannot apply directly to us as a refugee.
    To be referred, you must fall into one of these two refugee classes.”
    You cant apply for refugee status unless referred, you cant apply to immigrate unless you are sponsored, you cant immigrate unless you can prove you have the financial capacity to support yourself, or your sponsor does. You have to speak English,, or French.
    These rules would be greeted in the US as draconian and xenophobic, the grass is not greener,
    the medical system there leaves much to be desired, most of the advantage could be met with simple catastrophic insurance in the US. Britain Canada and elsewhere are struggling to fund and manage the systems they have, looking at alternatives.
    We can improve our systems and our way of life in many ways, but Camelot doesnt exist.

  336. I am most unhappy about many things in this country but being enamored with Canada is not realistic, every asylum seeker on our southern border would be rejected by Canada:
    “To come to Canada as a refugee, you must be referred. The United Nations Refugee Agency (UNHCR), a designated referral organization, or a private sponsorship group can refer you. You cannot apply directly to us as a refugee.
    To be referred, you must fall into one of these two refugee classes.”
    You cant apply for refugee status unless referred, you cant apply to immigrate unless you are sponsored, you cant immigrate unless you can prove you have the financial capacity to support yourself, or your sponsor does. You have to speak English,, or French.
    These rules would be greeted in the US as draconian and xenophobic, the grass is not greener,
    the medical system there leaves much to be desired, most of the advantage could be met with simple catastrophic insurance in the US. Britain Canada and elsewhere are struggling to fund and manage the systems they have, looking at alternatives.
    We can improve our systems and our way of life in many ways, but Camelot doesnt exist.

  337. Our reluctance to support government-sponsored projects in the US did not likely originate with people’s reluctance about efficiency or quality, but because the federal government supported integration and racial equality.
    The health care system has other twists (such as healthcare’s history of being tied to labor and employment, and opposition by the AMA), but as people began to equate government institutions with integration, those who welcomed integration were more likely to consider government involvement in a positive light. Others not so much.
    Just a theory.

  338. Our reluctance to support government-sponsored projects in the US did not likely originate with people’s reluctance about efficiency or quality, but because the federal government supported integration and racial equality.
    The health care system has other twists (such as healthcare’s history of being tied to labor and employment, and opposition by the AMA), but as people began to equate government institutions with integration, those who welcomed integration were more likely to consider government involvement in a positive light. Others not so much.
    Just a theory.

  339. We can improve our systems
    not anymore.
    we have a party of creating and a party of tearing down. and so nothing gets done.

  340. We can improve our systems
    not anymore.
    we have a party of creating and a party of tearing down. and so nothing gets done.

  341. These rules would be greeted in the US as draconian and xenophobic
    And yet….
    Note that those are absolute numbers. Canada has just over 10% of the population of the US, so adjust as needed for the per-capita comparison.
    I raised the example of Montreal not as Camelot, but simply as an example of what “government doing useful stuff” looks like. They appear to be pretty good at it. It was a reply to CharlesWT’s snide aside. I’m more than sure they have their issues, but if you’re sick there and don’t have money, you can go to the hospital. Metro is good, roads are good, parks are nice and freely available, lights are on, turn on the tap and water comes out, and you can drink it without worrying about it.
    All good things. Right?
    Libertarians all bitch about government, but they still ride the bus to work. Or, you know, drive themselves in their own personal automobile, but on public roads.
    So, government. Not such a bad thing, in the end.
    I don’t see Canada, or any other place, as Camelot. I see Canada, and most of the other industrialized OECD nations that are our approximate peers, as places that do a better job than we do at addressing the needs and interests of their populations through public effort.
    Because, in general, people in those places don’t despise their own government in the perverse and bizarre ways that we do.
    We are profoundly stupid and self-defeating in that regard. We’ll let our own people fucking die from causes with obvious remedies, or descend into financial ruin unnecessarily, before we’ll let that government camel sneak its nose under the tent flap.
    So I think those countries are better than we are, in that regard. I don’t want to move to any of them, I want this country to be more like they are, in that regard.
    The idea of universally available catastrophic health insurance is fine with me. It will have to get past a (R) party whose base applauds – literally applauds – the idea of someone dying because they failed to buy adequate insurance for themselves.
    Good luck with that.
    The difference between Canada and the US is the difference between “sure, I’ll chip in for that so that we can all have it” and “I’m not paying for something that guy over there is going to use”.
    I think the first attitude is better. I think the second attitude sucks.
    I don’t want Camelot. I want an America that I’m not ashamed of.
    The problem is not the system, the problem is the people. We need to take a hard look at who we are and who we are becoming, and then wise the fuck up.
    We’ve been very fortunate. The correct response to that is gratitude, not ignorant self-important bullying hubris.

  342. These rules would be greeted in the US as draconian and xenophobic
    And yet….
    Note that those are absolute numbers. Canada has just over 10% of the population of the US, so adjust as needed for the per-capita comparison.
    I raised the example of Montreal not as Camelot, but simply as an example of what “government doing useful stuff” looks like. They appear to be pretty good at it. It was a reply to CharlesWT’s snide aside. I’m more than sure they have their issues, but if you’re sick there and don’t have money, you can go to the hospital. Metro is good, roads are good, parks are nice and freely available, lights are on, turn on the tap and water comes out, and you can drink it without worrying about it.
    All good things. Right?
    Libertarians all bitch about government, but they still ride the bus to work. Or, you know, drive themselves in their own personal automobile, but on public roads.
    So, government. Not such a bad thing, in the end.
    I don’t see Canada, or any other place, as Camelot. I see Canada, and most of the other industrialized OECD nations that are our approximate peers, as places that do a better job than we do at addressing the needs and interests of their populations through public effort.
    Because, in general, people in those places don’t despise their own government in the perverse and bizarre ways that we do.
    We are profoundly stupid and self-defeating in that regard. We’ll let our own people fucking die from causes with obvious remedies, or descend into financial ruin unnecessarily, before we’ll let that government camel sneak its nose under the tent flap.
    So I think those countries are better than we are, in that regard. I don’t want to move to any of them, I want this country to be more like they are, in that regard.
    The idea of universally available catastrophic health insurance is fine with me. It will have to get past a (R) party whose base applauds – literally applauds – the idea of someone dying because they failed to buy adequate insurance for themselves.
    Good luck with that.
    The difference between Canada and the US is the difference between “sure, I’ll chip in for that so that we can all have it” and “I’m not paying for something that guy over there is going to use”.
    I think the first attitude is better. I think the second attitude sucks.
    I don’t want Camelot. I want an America that I’m not ashamed of.
    The problem is not the system, the problem is the people. We need to take a hard look at who we are and who we are becoming, and then wise the fuck up.
    We’ve been very fortunate. The correct response to that is gratitude, not ignorant self-important bullying hubris.

  343. Just a theory.
    As working hypotheses go, not a bad start.
    most of the advantage could be met with simple catastrophic insurance in the US.
    So, Marty. You sign up for the “added” insurance every time you fly or rent a car? Hey, it’s cheap!
    The idea that a policy that doesn’t kick in until you have spent $8,000 out of pocket is a sick joke for most people. Want proof? Businesses that offer “health insurance” to their employees do not tend to offer such “plans” because catastrophic insurance policies are simply not adequate.

  344. Just a theory.
    As working hypotheses go, not a bad start.
    most of the advantage could be met with simple catastrophic insurance in the US.
    So, Marty. You sign up for the “added” insurance every time you fly or rent a car? Hey, it’s cheap!
    The idea that a policy that doesn’t kick in until you have spent $8,000 out of pocket is a sick joke for most people. Want proof? Businesses that offer “health insurance” to their employees do not tend to offer such “plans” because catastrophic insurance policies are simply not adequate.

  345. WTF, America. Who did this to you? What happened to you?
    1789-1865: Institutionalized, legally sanctioned human slavery; genocidal elimination of native peoples; expansion via military conquest.
    1865-1933: Economic class war; more military expansion; government sanctioned racial segregation.
    1934-1967: Krugman’s Great Compression. There is hope.
    1980-present: Regression to the mean. And I mean really mean.
    It’s who we are.
    But I hear you. We can do better. Let’s put our shoulder to the wheel and make it so.

  346. WTF, America. Who did this to you? What happened to you?
    1789-1865: Institutionalized, legally sanctioned human slavery; genocidal elimination of native peoples; expansion via military conquest.
    1865-1933: Economic class war; more military expansion; government sanctioned racial segregation.
    1934-1967: Krugman’s Great Compression. There is hope.
    1980-present: Regression to the mean. And I mean really mean.
    It’s who we are.
    But I hear you. We can do better. Let’s put our shoulder to the wheel and make it so.

  349. And now we have an Army Lt. Colonel, who is on the NSC, and who personally heard Amb. Sondland say that the aid to Ukraine was dependent on investigating specifically the Bidens. Not corruption in general, but the Bidens specifically. He’s apparently also testifying that he raised objections at the time, both to Sondland and to the NSC counsel.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/vindman-offers-a-firsthand-account-of-critical-episodes-in-alleged-quid-pro-quo/2019/10/29/cb16a5c0-fa45-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html
    Of course, since he’s an immigrant, his loyalty to the US is being questioned. His army career (and Purple Heart) notwithstanding. But the defenses are getting more and more tenuous.

  350. And now we have an Army Lt. Colonel, who is on the NSC, and who personally heard Amb. Sondland say that the aid to Ukraine was dependent on investigating specifically the Bidens. Not corruption in general, but the Bidens specifically. He’s apparently also testifying that he raised objections at the time, both to Sondland and to the NSC counsel.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/vindman-offers-a-firsthand-account-of-critical-episodes-in-alleged-quid-pro-quo/2019/10/29/cb16a5c0-fa45-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html
    Of course, since he’s an immigrant, his loyalty to the US is being questioned. His army career (and Purple Heart) notwithstanding. But the defenses are getting more and more tenuous.

  353. Yes. Testimony to members of United States House of Representatives, who are clearly agents of a hostile foreign power and not part of our own government. It’s not like we’d be spying on ourselves!

  354. Yes. Testimony to members of United States House of Representatives, who are clearly agents of a hostile foreign power and not part of our own government. It’s not like we’d be spying on ourselves!

  357. Of course, since he’s an immigrant…
    At the age of three.
    A deep sleeper agent, obvs.
    And we’re well beyond “Have you no shame ?”, since we know the answer to that.

  358. Of course, since he’s an immigrant…
    At the age of three.
    A deep sleeper agent, obvs.
    And we’re well beyond “Have you no shame ?”, since we know the answer to that.

  359. It’s not just “no shame”. It’s also “no brains”.
    The military has far, far higher public approval than any politician — and Trump isn’t particularly respected, even compared to other politicians. Smearing one is seriously problematic. Especially (since we’re talking about Trump fans here) one who is clearly Caucasian — not Norwegian, perhaps, but close. Sorry, but those are the people we are dealing with.

  360. It’s not just “no shame”. It’s also “no brains”.
    The military has far, far higher public approval than any politician — and Trump isn’t particularly respected, even compared to other politicians. Smearing one is seriously problematic. Especially (since we’re talking about Trump fans here) one who is clearly Caucasian — not Norwegian, perhaps, but close. Sorry, but those are the people we are dealing with.

  361. One other aspect of the Ukraine mess that somehow hadn’t reached the surface of my consciousness: the Hatch Act.

    Title 18, United States Code, Section 610, makes it a crime — indeed, a felony, punishable by up to three years in prison — for “any person to intimidate, threaten, command, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, command, or coerce, any employee of the Federal Government … to engage in … any political activity.”

    Note that, unlike much of the Hatch Act, this part explicitly does cover the President and Vice President. Guess avoiding prison for this is one more reason for Trump to be desperate to avoid impeachment and removal.

  362. One other aspect of the Ukraine mess that somehow hadn’t reached the surface of my consciousness: the Hatch Act.

    Title 18, United States Code, Section 610, makes it a crime — indeed, a felony, punishable by up to three years in prison — for “any person to intimidate, threaten, command, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, command, or coerce, any employee of the Federal Government … to engage in … any political activity.”

    Note that, unlike much of the Hatch Act, this part explicitly does cover the President and Vice President. Guess avoiding prison for this is one more reason for Trump to be desperate to avoid impeachment and removal.

  363. one who is clearly Caucasian — not Norwegian, perhaps, but close.
    ‘close’ as in possibly less than 100 miles from being a literal Caucasian .

  364. one who is clearly Caucasian — not Norwegian, perhaps, but close.
    ‘close’ as in possibly less than 100 miles from being a literal Caucasian .

  367. This is a decorated American soldier and he should be given the respect that his service to our country demands…
    since Trump doesn’t do “should” or “respect”, is there a plan B ?

  368. This is a decorated American soldier and he should be given the respect that his service to our country demands…
    since Trump doesn’t do “should” or “respect”, is there a plan B ?

  369. At this point, it isn’t about Trump. It’s about Republican Senators. Of course, a lot of them don’t do “respect” either, because they are slavishly following Trump. But some of them might still have limits. Each one who still respects the military is one more step towards 20.
    Will it be enough? Probably not. But each step forward is a step forward.

  370. At this point, it isn’t about Trump. It’s about Republican Senators. Of course, a lot of them don’t do “respect” either, because they are slavishly following Trump. But some of them might still have limits. Each one who still respects the military is one more step towards 20.
    Will it be enough? Probably not. But each step forward is a step forward.

  371. no GOP Senator who wants to be re-elected is going to vote for removal while Trump’s approval rating is in the 80% range.
    best we’ll see is one or two who will make vewy sewious fwowny faces but will ultimately decide the punishment doesn’t fit the crime.

  372. no GOP Senator who wants to be re-elected is going to vote for removal while Trump’s approval rating is in the 80% range.
    best we’ll see is one or two who will make vewy sewious fwowny faces but will ultimately decide the punishment doesn’t fit the crime.

  375. My sense is that the Trump-fans attacks on the officer are just another example of Team Trump shooting themselves in the foot. Sometimes they miss. But not, I think, this time. (That gun rest on the knee is so helpful that way.)

  376. My sense is that the Trump-fans attacks on the officer are just another example of Team Trump shooting themselves in the foot. Sometimes they miss. But not, I think, this time. (That gun rest on the knee is so helpful that way.)

  377. they seem panicked and confused, shooting wildly any time something they can’t control appears.
    somebody’s gonna get hurt.
    i hope it’s Trump.

  378. they seem panicked and confused, shooting wildly any time something they can’t control appears.
    somebody’s gonna get hurt.
    i hope it’s Trump.

  379. Apologies, cleek, but you’re thinking too small.
    I hope it hurts not just Trump (that’s a pretty safe bet; the only question is how much). But it also hurts all the GOP politicians who have gone all in for him. AND the “conservative” commentators who have been cheering for him as well. (Fox “News” as an institution definitely included.)
    I’m not really going with a Thullen-level diatribe. But I’m up for serious personal/career/economic damage for the whole crew.

  380. Apologies, cleek, but you’re thinking too small.
    I hope it hurts not just Trump (that’s a pretty safe bet; the only question is how much). But it also hurts all the GOP politicians who have gone all in for him. AND the “conservative” commentators who have been cheering for him as well. (Fox “News” as an institution definitely included.)
    I’m not really going with a Thullen-level diatribe. But I’m up for serious personal/career/economic damage for the whole crew.

  383. Not just Trump shooting himself in the foot. His buddy Erdogan may be regretting getting Trump to do him a favor as well.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/trumps-dealings-with-turkey-pave-way-for-house-vote-acknowledging-armenian-genocide/2019/10/29/00adb200-fa7d-11e9-8906-ab6b60de9124_story.html
    For those who don’t follow these things, keeping the US from formally acknowledging the Armenian Genocide has been a major Turkish priority for a long time. And now, thanks to his scamming Trump over the Kurds, Erdogan may have blown up that longstanding effort. Oops.

  384. Not just Trump shooting himself in the foot. His buddy Erdogan may be regretting getting Trump to do him a favor as well.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/trumps-dealings-with-turkey-pave-way-for-house-vote-acknowledging-armenian-genocide/2019/10/29/00adb200-fa7d-11e9-8906-ab6b60de9124_story.html
    For those who don’t follow these things, keeping the US from formally acknowledging the Armenian Genocide has been a major Turkish priority for a long time. And now, thanks to his scamming Trump over the Kurds, Erdogan may have blown up that longstanding effort. Oops.

  385. Returning to the OT
    And the Nationals take it to game 7!
    Gotta say, MLB is doing its part to give us as much reality to focus on as they can. But all good things must come to an end. How will we stay sane when it’s over?

  386. Returning to the OT
    And the Nationals take it to game 7!
    Gotta say, MLB is doing its part to give us as much reality to focus on as they can. But all good things must come to an end. How will we stay sane when it’s over?

  389. Say what you will about necon Jennifer Rubin, but this is on the mark:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/10/30/what-about-all-other-patriots/
    An excerpt:

    The government-wide smear of the “deep state” — that is, those men and women who take seriously their oath to the Constitution and do not confuse that loyalty with loyalty to Trump — is also an attack on the patriotism and loyalty of fellow Americans. This is now an essential aspect of right-wing conspiracy theories and regular nomenclature among Republicans.
    It is not just military service personnel who deserve our respect, but any Foreign Service officer, civilian Pentagon worker, law enforcement officer and, yes, even members of Congress. Trump, however, sees no difference between disloyalty to him (meaning any deviation from the cult and willingness to say anything in Trump’s defense) and disloyalty to the country. He has characterized critical voices (the media being the “enemy of the people”) and adverse witnesses including the whistleblower as traitors. All of this has not weakened his grip on the Republican Party.

  390. Say what you will about necon Jennifer Rubin, but this is on the mark:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/10/30/what-about-all-other-patriots/
    An excerpt:

    The government-wide smear of the “deep state” — that is, those men and women who take seriously their oath to the Constitution and do not confuse that loyalty with loyalty to Trump — is also an attack on the patriotism and loyalty of fellow Americans. This is now an essential aspect of right-wing conspiracy theories and regular nomenclature among Republicans.
    It is not just military service personnel who deserve our respect, but any Foreign Service officer, civilian Pentagon worker, law enforcement officer and, yes, even members of Congress. Trump, however, sees no difference between disloyalty to him (meaning any deviation from the cult and willingness to say anything in Trump’s defense) and disloyalty to the country. He has characterized critical voices (the media being the “enemy of the people”) and adverse witnesses including the whistleblower as traitors. All of this has not weakened his grip on the Republican Party.

  391. Governments generally overestimate their own competence to decide what’s best.
    I admit that was provocative of me.
    I meant what I wrote, but it’s by no means an argument for right libertarianism.
    First, there are many things which can’t be provided effectively by a free market. Healthcare is one – the government has to get involved, it’s just a question of how best to do it.
    Second, there are many markets – the labour market is one – where inequalities of information and power demand government regulation.
    Third, there is no reason why the distribution of income and wealth which results from market activity should be best. It’s entirely proper for governments to seek to increase human well-being by evening it out somewhat. (Note also that intellectual property rights created and defended by governments are responsible for the greatest concentrations of wealth.)
    But it remains that case that government interference is often damaging. US agricultural subsidies for example.

  392. Governments generally overestimate their own competence to decide what’s best.
    I admit that was provocative of me.
    I meant what I wrote, but it’s by no means an argument for right libertarianism.
    First, there are many things which can’t be provided effectively by a free market. Healthcare is one – the government has to get involved, it’s just a question of how best to do it.
    Second, there are many markets – the labour market is one – where inequalities of information and power demand government regulation.
    Third, there is no reason why the distribution of income and wealth which results from market activity should be best. It’s entirely proper for governments to seek to increase human well-being by evening it out somewhat. (Note also that intellectual property rights created and defended by governments are responsible for the greatest concentrations of wealth.)
    But it remains that case that government interference is often damaging. US agricultural subsidies for example.

  393. All of this has not weakened his grip on the Republican Party.
    i never get tired of being reminded that i never have to take any Republican seriously on anything again.

  394. All of this has not weakened his grip on the Republican Party.
    i never get tired of being reminded that i never have to take any Republican seriously on anything again.

  395. “But it remains that case that government interference is often damaging.”
    This can be agreed with. Every action has unforeseen consequences. Americans have big problems with unforeseen negative consequences stemming from government action, but seem to enjoy the negative unforeseen consequences of private actions.
    I guess because we enjoy improvisation in our societal disasters rather than planned ones.
    Both are forced upon us.
    But it’s not like government makes this stuff up. Private actors, individuals, and their big brother individuals, the private and public corporate world, vote in elections (we’ll leave aside the increasing frequency of stolen elections) to install their representatives to either interfere to ameliorate they themselves cause or to NOT interfere to ameliorate those problems (and NOT ameliorating the problems also has unforeseen consequences, AND not ameliorating is government force every bit as consequential as force by actively interfering).
    This article ….
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/21/is-amazon-unstoppable
    …. about Amazon and Jeff Bezos contains this remarkable statement from a top Bezos Lieutenant, regarding their worker/management relations:
    ‘One senior Amazon executive said of its warehouses, “It’s a hard economy for people without college degrees right now. We can’t run a philanthropy, but we’re trying to be the best of those bad kinds of jobs.” Another top executive suggested that Amazon was merely a cog in the American economic machine—and inevitably reflected how contemporary inequality had created winners and losers. “We’re doing what we can,” he said. “But ultimately this is a problem only the government can really solve—by changing how the economy works.”’
    See, they are asking (more like daring) for government action regarding the myriads problem of inequality, which they admit is not their problem.
    Action which they will fight against tooth and nail with their huge financial resources, their huge lobbying force, and frankly, by paying off the representatives they help get elected.
    “US agricultural subsidies, for example.”
    If you can tell us what unforeseen consequences and depredations would have transpired without agricultural subsidies, we can compare them to the unforeseen consequences and depredations that have occurred with them, and make up our minds.
    There must be a pithy Rumsfeldian formulation to encapsulate that point.
    I agree with you, Pro Bono.
    It was Charles’ inevitable “always” I was reacting to.
    “Always” is every Libertarian’s nickname. 😉

  396. “But it remains that case that government interference is often damaging.”
    This can be agreed with. Every action has unforeseen consequences. Americans have big problems with unforeseen negative consequences stemming from government action, but seem to enjoy the negative unforeseen consequences of private actions.
    I guess because we enjoy improvisation in our societal disasters rather than planned ones.
    Both are forced upon us.
    But it’s not like government makes this stuff up. Private actors, individuals, and their big brother individuals, the private and public corporate world, vote in elections (we’ll leave aside the increasing frequency of stolen elections) to install their representatives to either interfere to ameliorate they themselves cause or to NOT interfere to ameliorate those problems (and NOT ameliorating the problems also has unforeseen consequences, AND not ameliorating is government force every bit as consequential as force by actively interfering).
    This article ….
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/21/is-amazon-unstoppable
    …. about Amazon and Jeff Bezos contains this remarkable statement from a top Bezos Lieutenant, regarding their worker/management relations:
    ‘One senior Amazon executive said of its warehouses, “It’s a hard economy for people without college degrees right now. We can’t run a philanthropy, but we’re trying to be the best of those bad kinds of jobs.” Another top executive suggested that Amazon was merely a cog in the American economic machine—and inevitably reflected how contemporary inequality had created winners and losers. “We’re doing what we can,” he said. “But ultimately this is a problem only the government can really solve—by changing how the economy works.”’
    See, they are asking (more like daring) for government action regarding the myriads problem of inequality, which they admit is not their problem.
    Action which they will fight against tooth and nail with their huge financial resources, their huge lobbying force, and frankly, by paying off the representatives they help get elected.
    “US agricultural subsidies, for example.”
    If you can tell us what unforeseen consequences and depredations would have transpired without agricultural subsidies, we can compare them to the unforeseen consequences and depredations that have occurred with them, and make up our minds.
    There must be a pithy Rumsfeldian formulation to encapsulate that point.
    I agree with you, Pro Bono.
    It was Charles’ inevitable “always” I was reacting to.
    “Always” is every Libertarian’s nickname. 😉

  397. Governments generally overestimate their own competence to decide what’s best.
    We’d be a great deal better off if we recognised that almost everyone tends to overestimate their own competence.
    A tendency which increases with power and status.

  398. Governments generally overestimate their own competence to decide what’s best.
    We’d be a great deal better off if we recognised that almost everyone tends to overestimate their own competence.
    A tendency which increases with power and status.

  401. Lock Him Up.

    A top aide to Rep. Devin Nunes has been providing conservative politicians and journalists with information—and misinformation—about the anonymous whistleblower who triggered the biggest crisis of Donald Trump’s presidency, two knowledgeable sources tell The Daily Beast.
    Derek Harvey, who works for Nunes, the ranking Republican on the House intelligence committee, has provided notes for House Republicans identifying the whistleblower’s name ahead of the high-profile depositions of Trump administration appointees and civil servants in the impeachment inquiry. The purpose of the notes, one source said, is to get the whistleblower’s name into the record of the proceedings, which committee chairman Adam Schiff has pledged to eventually release. In other words: it’s an attempt to out the anonymous official who helped trigger the impeachment inquiry.

  402. Lock Him Up.

    A top aide to Rep. Devin Nunes has been providing conservative politicians and journalists with information—and misinformation—about the anonymous whistleblower who triggered the biggest crisis of Donald Trump’s presidency, two knowledgeable sources tell The Daily Beast.
    Derek Harvey, who works for Nunes, the ranking Republican on the House intelligence committee, has provided notes for House Republicans identifying the whistleblower’s name ahead of the high-profile depositions of Trump administration appointees and civil servants in the impeachment inquiry. The purpose of the notes, one source said, is to get the whistleblower’s name into the record of the proceedings, which committee chairman Adam Schiff has pledged to eventually release. In other words: it’s an attempt to out the anonymous official who helped trigger the impeachment inquiry.

  403. There will be a government shutdown in late November.
    Solely to halt funding for heat, security, and other amenities in the U.S. Capitol to thwart impeachment investigations.
    The shutdown will last months and months.
    People who need people are the luckiest people in the world.
    Conservatives and Republicans aren’t people.
    We don’t need them.

  404. There will be a government shutdown in late November.
    Solely to halt funding for heat, security, and other amenities in the U.S. Capitol to thwart impeachment investigations.
    The shutdown will last months and months.
    People who need people are the luckiest people in the world.
    Conservatives and Republicans aren’t people.
    We don’t need them.

  405. One of the mysteries of the whole Ukraine deal, at least for me, is why the White House would release something which so obviously demonstrated that Trump was pressuring a foreign government to invent dirt on a political rival. But from the testimony** of Col Vindman and others, it’s now becoming clearer. It appears that the entirety of what was said on that phone call, never mind in other communications, was so much worse that they just lost track of how bad what they put out actually was.
    Definitely looking forward to the transcripts of that testimony.
    ** Actually just the opening statements. God knows what’s in the testimony. Beyond the remarkable fact that the Republicans in the room haven’t managed to find anything in Trump’s favor to leak.

  406. One of the mysteries of the whole Ukraine deal, at least for me, is why the White House would release something which so obviously demonstrated that Trump was pressuring a foreign government to invent dirt on a political rival. But from the testimony** of Col Vindman and others, it’s now becoming clearer. It appears that the entirety of what was said on that phone call, never mind in other communications, was so much worse that they just lost track of how bad what they put out actually was.
    Definitely looking forward to the transcripts of that testimony.
    ** Actually just the opening statements. God knows what’s in the testimony. Beyond the remarkable fact that the Republicans in the room haven’t managed to find anything in Trump’s favor to leak.

  407. There will be a government shutdown in late November.
    Solely to halt funding for heat, security, and other amenities in the U.S. Capitol to thwart impeachment investigations.
    Won’t work. There’s nothing that requires the hearings to be held there. And several of the members are wealthy enough that they can afford to rent a room in a conference center.
    There’s also the detail that Congress’ budget is seperate from the other bits. And there’s no way even Republican members will inconvenience themselves and their staffs this way. Even for them, willing as they may be to hang other Federal employees out to dry, personal inconvenience is beyond the pale. Trump be damned.

  408. There will be a government shutdown in late November.
    Solely to halt funding for heat, security, and other amenities in the U.S. Capitol to thwart impeachment investigations.
    Won’t work. There’s nothing that requires the hearings to be held there. And several of the members are wealthy enough that they can afford to rent a room in a conference center.
    There’s also the detail that Congress’ budget is seperate from the other bits. And there’s no way even Republican members will inconvenience themselves and their staffs this way. Even for them, willing as they may be to hang other Federal employees out to dry, personal inconvenience is beyond the pale. Trump be damned.

  409. Governments are people, my friend.
    And people don’t become saints when they enter government. They tend to act in their own self-interest just like everyone else. Sometimes that self-interest alines with the interest of their constituents or the country as a whole.

  410. Governments are people, my friend.
    And people don’t become saints when they enter government. They tend to act in their own self-interest just like everyone else. Sometimes that self-interest alines with the interest of their constituents or the country as a whole.

  411. One of the mysteries of the whole Ukraine deal, at least for me, is why the White House would release something which so obviously demonstrated that Trump was pressuring a foreign government to invent dirt on a political rival.
    Because they really don’t believe they (meaning the top people) will be punished for it. And because “outrage the libs” has been a winning electoral tactic. Because much of what the national Republican Party wants to accomplish can be accomplished by the President (using the fourth branch of government, the regulatory agencies) or the President and Senate. Because most pundits’ take on flipping Senate seats goes Alabama, Colorado, Arizona, Maine, and then gets really thin. Because Senators from states that would give the Democrats a majority in the Senate won’t vote to kill the legislative filibuster.

  412. One of the mysteries of the whole Ukraine deal, at least for me, is why the White House would release something which so obviously demonstrated that Trump was pressuring a foreign government to invent dirt on a political rival.
    Because they really don’t believe they (meaning the top people) will be punished for it. And because “outrage the libs” has been a winning electoral tactic. Because much of what the national Republican Party wants to accomplish can be accomplished by the President (using the fourth branch of government, the regulatory agencies) or the President and Senate. Because most pundits’ take on flipping Senate seats goes Alabama, Colorado, Arizona, Maine, and then gets really thin. Because Senators from states that would give the Democrats a majority in the Senate won’t vote to kill the legislative filibuster.

  413. But Michael, if they care that little, why not release the real transcript? Or, alternatively, just refuse to release anything and ignore any complaints, subpoenas, etc.?

  414. But Michael, if they care that little, why not release the real transcript? Or, alternatively, just refuse to release anything and ignore any complaints, subpoenas, etc.?

  415. But Michael, if they care that little, why not release the real transcript?
    Because they passed the actual initial work off to staff, who are more cautious than the bosses. Justifiably so, as throwing staff under the bus is a long-standing tradition. Why, just last week, when the SCIF was stormed, and it became clear that the FBI might care about violations of federal law, US Representatives promptly said, “Not me, someone on my staff carried my phone into the facility and used it.”

  416. But Michael, if they care that little, why not release the real transcript?
    Because they passed the actual initial work off to staff, who are more cautious than the bosses. Justifiably so, as throwing staff under the bus is a long-standing tradition. Why, just last week, when the SCIF was stormed, and it became clear that the FBI might care about violations of federal law, US Representatives promptly said, “Not me, someone on my staff carried my phone into the facility and used it.”

  417. But it remains that case that government interference is often damaging.
    To whom?
    Every action and decision has unforeseen consequences. Refraining from acting or deciding has unforeseen consequences.
    Government “intervening” is government doing what government is supposed to do. Governments exist to establish the basis – the requirements, the constraints, the privileges and responsibilities – attaining to public life in human societies. That is what they do, what they have always done. Doing some involves intervening – involves being an actor, for good or ill or neither in partiular, in the overall flow of human events and actions – for about a million definitions of intervening.
    Government is one among many actors, all of the other actors could equally be said to be “intervening” in whatever the hell it is that’s going on. What gives them the privilege to make decisions and act upon them – to “intervene” in the flow of events – while government’s doing so is illegitimate?
    People talk about government as if it is some alien force imposed on humanity from outside. It is not. It is a fundamental human behavior. It’s one of the things that people do. In that, it’s no different than, and no more or less legitimate than, any other human activity, whether that’s exchanging things of value in a free market or anything else you can think of.
    Some are better, some are worse. Some are profoundly good, some are profoundly bad. Same for families, businesses, neighborhoods, bowling leagues, whatever you like.
    The point is to work to make the one you participate in one of the better ones. Bitching doesn’t help.
    Enough of this already, please.

  418. But it remains that case that government interference is often damaging.
    To whom?
    Every action and decision has unforeseen consequences. Refraining from acting or deciding has unforeseen consequences.
    Government “intervening” is government doing what government is supposed to do. Governments exist to establish the basis – the requirements, the constraints, the privileges and responsibilities – attaining to public life in human societies. That is what they do, what they have always done. Doing some involves intervening – involves being an actor, for good or ill or neither in partiular, in the overall flow of human events and actions – for about a million definitions of intervening.
    Government is one among many actors, all of the other actors could equally be said to be “intervening” in whatever the hell it is that’s going on. What gives them the privilege to make decisions and act upon them – to “intervene” in the flow of events – while government’s doing so is illegitimate?
    People talk about government as if it is some alien force imposed on humanity from outside. It is not. It is a fundamental human behavior. It’s one of the things that people do. In that, it’s no different than, and no more or less legitimate than, any other human activity, whether that’s exchanging things of value in a free market or anything else you can think of.
    Some are better, some are worse. Some are profoundly good, some are profoundly bad. Same for families, businesses, neighborhoods, bowling leagues, whatever you like.
    The point is to work to make the one you participate in one of the better ones. Bitching doesn’t help.
    Enough of this already, please.

  421. Government is one among many actors, all of the other actors could equally be said to be “intervening” in whatever the hell it is that’s going on.
    Unlike other institutions, government is the one that can “legally” compel you to do what it wants by putting a gun to your head.

  422. Government is one among many actors, all of the other actors could equally be said to be “intervening” in whatever the hell it is that’s going on.
    Unlike other institutions, government is the one that can “legally” compel you to do what it wants by putting a gun to your head.

  423. For now, wrs.
    For now I will just quote FDR’s famous foursome:
    Freedom of speech
    Freedom of worship
    Freedom from want
    Freedom from fear
    I will try to expand on this observation when I get time, for the the moment, just note that half of them are framed as freedom “from” something. Not freedom “to do” something.

  424. For now, wrs.
    For now I will just quote FDR’s famous foursome:
    Freedom of speech
    Freedom of worship
    Freedom from want
    Freedom from fear
    I will try to expand on this observation when I get time, for the the moment, just note that half of them are framed as freedom “from” something. Not freedom “to do” something.

  425. Unlike other institutions, government is the one that can “legally” compel you to do what it wants by putting a gun to your head.
    Of course, without government intervening, there is no “legally.” So anybody can put a literal gun to your head.

  426. Unlike other institutions, government is the one that can “legally” compel you to do what it wants by putting a gun to your head.
    Of course, without government intervening, there is no “legally.” So anybody can put a literal gun to your head.

  427. And now what wj said.
    It’s just too damned bad–right?–when the goverment (which if it’s functioning reasonably well is us, having first voted and then delegated to a subgroup of ourselves the carrying out of our intentions) puts a figurative gun to someone’s head and says “stop pouring poison into the air we breathe and the water we drink” and “stop flooding the market with addictive pills and lying about what they do” and “stop grabbing millions of times more than anyone could possibly need for their own welfare while other people are dying of hunger.” Oh, and also, “let’s build some good roads and a few libraries and schools too.”
    Horrible stuff, that, to have to put up with under threat of a gun to your head.

  428. And now what wj said.
    It’s just too damned bad–right?–when the goverment (which if it’s functioning reasonably well is us, having first voted and then delegated to a subgroup of ourselves the carrying out of our intentions) puts a figurative gun to someone’s head and says “stop pouring poison into the air we breathe and the water we drink” and “stop flooding the market with addictive pills and lying about what they do” and “stop grabbing millions of times more than anyone could possibly need for their own welfare while other people are dying of hunger.” Oh, and also, “let’s build some good roads and a few libraries and schools too.”
    Horrible stuff, that, to have to put up with under threat of a gun to your head.

  429. what Russell said.
    what wj said (don’t let it go to your head :)).
    Pro Bono should come out of the political closet and announce his anarchism proudly.
    CharlesWT should actually experience some life or death ‘private’ power (and the actual distribution thereof) before repeating glibertarian shibboliths about the legal use of force.
    On another, unrelated, topic. I want to open a grift operation targeted to wingnuts as their commonly asserted claim to “know how the world really works” seems to make them incredibly easy marks for con artists. So I’m looking for a good idea.
    Thanks for your assistance.

  430. what Russell said.
    what wj said (don’t let it go to your head :)).
    Pro Bono should come out of the political closet and announce his anarchism proudly.
    CharlesWT should actually experience some life or death ‘private’ power (and the actual distribution thereof) before repeating glibertarian shibboliths about the legal use of force.
    On another, unrelated, topic. I want to open a grift operation targeted to wingnuts as their commonly asserted claim to “know how the world really works” seems to make them incredibly easy marks for con artists. So I’m looking for a good idea.
    Thanks for your assistance.

  433. ….should actually experience some life or death ‘private’ power (and the actual distribution thereof) before repeating glibertarian shibboliths about the legal use of force.
    I keep wondering (like unto a broken record, I know) why devout libertarians won’t look at what happens in practice when government goes away. We have a real-life example readily to hand: Somalia. What happens is that someone (likely several someones) sets up as a warlord. And is several times less congenial to libertarian visions of life than the government he replaces — however bad it was.
    But somehow libertarians insist that “that’s different” — without presenting any evidence that people elsewhere would behave any differently. Sigh.

  434. ….should actually experience some life or death ‘private’ power (and the actual distribution thereof) before repeating glibertarian shibboliths about the legal use of force.
    I keep wondering (like unto a broken record, I know) why devout libertarians won’t look at what happens in practice when government goes away. We have a real-life example readily to hand: Somalia. What happens is that someone (likely several someones) sets up as a warlord. And is several times less congenial to libertarian visions of life than the government he replaces — however bad it was.
    But somehow libertarians insist that “that’s different” — without presenting any evidence that people elsewhere would behave any differently. Sigh.

  435. On another, unrelated, topic. I want to open a grift operation targeted to wingnuts as their commonly asserted claim to “know how the world really works” seems to make them incredibly easy marks for con artists. So I’m looking for a good idea.
    Bad news. Trump beat you to it.
    Although, as a con man of long experience, he probably did it better than you could have managed. A “core competency” as it were.

  436. On another, unrelated, topic. I want to open a grift operation targeted to wingnuts as their commonly asserted claim to “know how the world really works” seems to make them incredibly easy marks for con artists. So I’m looking for a good idea.
    Bad news. Trump beat you to it.
    Although, as a con man of long experience, he probably did it better than you could have managed. A “core competency” as it were.

  437. Every action and decision has unforeseen consequences. Refraining from acting or deciding has unforeseen consequences.
    I like this part of wrs.
    Government is best when it represents the collective will of the people. The majority delivers ideas and action, but the Constitution respects the right of minorities (for specific reasons) not to be oppressed by the majority’s program.
    It makes a lot of sense.
    Whereas private (money) control of the world means that we’re back to being subjects of Fortuna.
    It’s nice to imagine that government (all of us) cares for our (each other’s) basic welfare – translated: a decent standard of living, and that private money (luck [most wealth is inherited wealth], and a certain amount of know-how) takes the lead when it comes to excess and luxury. I’m okay with that.
    But so many of the rich can’t seem to get enough. It’s unfathomable to me. Just have a nice house and maybe a boat, retire, go on trips, and take some classes. What else are you doing with all that?

  438. Every action and decision has unforeseen consequences. Refraining from acting or deciding has unforeseen consequences.
    I like this part of wrs.
    Government is best when it represents the collective will of the people. The majority delivers ideas and action, but the Constitution respects the right of minorities (for specific reasons) not to be oppressed by the majority’s program.
    It makes a lot of sense.
    Whereas private (money) control of the world means that we’re back to being subjects of Fortuna.
    It’s nice to imagine that government (all of us) cares for our (each other’s) basic welfare – translated: a decent standard of living, and that private money (luck [most wealth is inherited wealth], and a certain amount of know-how) takes the lead when it comes to excess and luxury. I’m okay with that.
    But so many of the rich can’t seem to get enough. It’s unfathomable to me. Just have a nice house and maybe a boat, retire, go on trips, and take some classes. What else are you doing with all that?

  439. I keep wondering (like unto a broken record, I know) why devout libertarians won’t look at what happens in practice when government goes away.
    Very few libertarians want government to go away, if for no other reason than you can’t get there from here. Many libertarians would like government to set and enforce the basic rules of the game. Otherwise, stand aside and let the players play.
    But governments tend to grow as long there’s something to feed. Like a fungus, they creep into every nook and cranny until there’s nothing left to feed on.

  440. I keep wondering (like unto a broken record, I know) why devout libertarians won’t look at what happens in practice when government goes away.
    Very few libertarians want government to go away, if for no other reason than you can’t get there from here. Many libertarians would like government to set and enforce the basic rules of the game. Otherwise, stand aside and let the players play.
    But governments tend to grow as long there’s something to feed. Like a fungus, they creep into every nook and cranny until there’s nothing left to feed on.

  443. But so many of the rich can’t seem to get enough. It’s unfathomable to me. Just have a nice house and maybe a boat, retire, go on trips, and take some classes. What else are you doing with all that?
    If only the house had a… billiard room. And each bedroom had its own full bathroom. And a place for the cook to stay. If it snows I’ll need a four-wheel drive SUV, but they’re so inconvenient for day-to-day, so the BMW. Best have an extra bay in the garage, just in case. Some days I want to sail, and some days I want to take six friends fishing. First-class is okay, but a time-share private jet makes things so much easier. The slower people in the language class were holding me back so I needed a private tutor. There is no end.
    Years ago, I got to travel on the corporate jet a few times*. I can see how it could be addictive.
    * One of the C-level executives would be going somewhere for a tech demo and ask who she should take along to ask questions.
    “What kind of tech?”
    “Don’t know, really.”
    “Best take Mike, then. He’ll come up with at least one question where they say, ‘We will have to get back to you on that.'”

  444. But so many of the rich can’t seem to get enough. It’s unfathomable to me. Just have a nice house and maybe a boat, retire, go on trips, and take some classes. What else are you doing with all that?
    If only the house had a… billiard room. And each bedroom had its own full bathroom. And a place for the cook to stay. If it snows I’ll need a four-wheel drive SUV, but they’re so inconvenient for day-to-day, so the BMW. Best have an extra bay in the garage, just in case. Some days I want to sail, and some days I want to take six friends fishing. First-class is okay, but a time-share private jet makes things so much easier. The slower people in the language class were holding me back so I needed a private tutor. There is no end.
    Years ago, I got to travel on the corporate jet a few times*. I can see how it could be addictive.
    * One of the C-level executives would be going somewhere for a tech demo and ask who she should take along to ask questions.
    “What kind of tech?”
    “Don’t know, really.”
    “Best take Mike, then. He’ll come up with at least one question where they say, ‘We will have to get back to you on that.'”

  445. PS: I have had quite enough of “the will of the people Putin” over the last 3 years
    Fixed that for you.

  446. PS: I have had quite enough of “the will of the people Putin” over the last 3 years
    Fixed that for you.

  447. Michael Cain: If only the house had a… There is no end.
    Yeah, but: what are you gonna do with your second billion dollars?
    –TP

  448. Michael Cain: If only the house had a… There is no end.
    Yeah, but: what are you gonna do with your second billion dollars?
    –TP

  451. Breaking news:The National Security Council’s top Russia official will leave his post. He is set to testify in the impeachment inquiry tomorrow.
    Yes, some conspiracy theories actually turn out to be conspiracies.

  452. Breaking news:The National Security Council’s top Russia official will leave his post. He is set to testify in the impeachment inquiry tomorrow.
    Yes, some conspiracy theories actually turn out to be conspiracies.

  453. But so many of the rich can’t seem to get enough. It’s unfathomable to me. Just have a nice house and maybe a boat, retire, go on trips, and take some classes. What else are you doing with all that?
    It’s really quite simple. Not to put too fine a face on it, it’s a dick measuring contest. Nothing else. Combined with a little sense of insecurity (“Maybe I’m not really the greatest. What if someone noticed?!?!?”) to juice things and it’s off to the races.

  454. But so many of the rich can’t seem to get enough. It’s unfathomable to me. Just have a nice house and maybe a boat, retire, go on trips, and take some classes. What else are you doing with all that?
    It’s really quite simple. Not to put too fine a face on it, it’s a dick measuring contest. Nothing else. Combined with a little sense of insecurity (“Maybe I’m not really the greatest. What if someone noticed?!?!?”) to juice things and it’s off to the races.

  455. ,i> it’s off to the races. it’s off to the races.
    Hmmmm. I guess.
    Have to guess, because I will never learn that. Maybe I shoulda. Maybe I could have been a contender!

  456. ,i> it’s off to the races. it’s off to the races.
    Hmmmm. I guess.
    Have to guess, because I will never learn that. Maybe I shoulda. Maybe I could have been a contender!

  459. Maybe I could have been a contender!
    But is that agonizing sense of insecurity really worth it? 🙂
    I’m guessing (I missed out as well) it isn’t.

  460. Maybe I could have been a contender!
    But is that agonizing sense of insecurity really worth it? 🙂
    I’m guessing (I missed out as well) it isn’t.

  461. with Firefox comes “Pocket”, which is a “hey look at these cool articles you could read!” thing. it puts links to these articles on new, empty, tabs. and 1/3 of them are all about how to be a better businessman and how to win and to dominate interactions and the secrets of the rich, etc..
    and i hate all of that.
    but i can see that if i was into them, that a million $ wouldn’t be enough. i would have to dominate and improve and win until i had all the monies.
    so i just read the stuff about science.

  462. with Firefox comes “Pocket”, which is a “hey look at these cool articles you could read!” thing. it puts links to these articles on new, empty, tabs. and 1/3 of them are all about how to be a better businessman and how to win and to dominate interactions and the secrets of the rich, etc..
    and i hate all of that.
    but i can see that if i was into them, that a million $ wouldn’t be enough. i would have to dominate and improve and win until i had all the monies.
    so i just read the stuff about science.

  463. wj encapsulates Locke’s 2nd Treatise on Government in two sentences at 3:55. And I never tire of FDR’s famous four.
    This isn’t Stalinist Russia. We don’t live under tyranny. Incompetence, cupidity, annoying bureaucratic bullshit, yes. It’s a big country and not everyone wants the same thing, so inefficiency, at a minimum, is a given. Pretty much everything government does is benefiting somebody, somewhere, and by far not always in a corrupt sense. Your pointless annoying regulation is somebody else’s lifesaver.
    If the overall balance of cui bono seems out of wack, exert yourself to change it. You are not without resources.
    When I ask libertarians what it is that they want to be doing that government is preventing them from doing, I’m always amazed at what small beer it is. E.g. good old Brett’s incandescent chicken coop warmer. Or whatever the hell that dude’s name was that mustered up the free-lance patriotic militia because the feds wanted him to pay for grazing his damned cows.
    Imagine being some Bureau of the Interior agent’s husband or wife and getting a call that your spouse wasn’t coming home that night, because some asshole didn’t want to pay for grazing his cows.
    Maybe the stuff that bugs you is much more consequential, but mostly the stuff that people complain about with government is stuff that is actually useful to somebody, just not them.
    Absent government – not the mythical ‘night watchman’ government of the libertarian dream, but the government we actually have right now – no small number of other actors would crush you like a damned bug and not think twice about it. And they wouldn’t need a damned gun to do it, there are a hundred and one other ways for one bad actor or another to fnck you the hell up.
    Government annoys the hell out of me every single day, and I’m glad it’s there every single day. Funny, that.
    YMMV
    In other news, it would appear that, politically speaking, Trump is a dead man walking. Maybe not, he’s had a pretty good track record of pressing his luck miles and miles beyond what he ought to have gotten away with. But hubris attracts nemesis, like night follows day. It’s written in our freaking human souls.
    All systems seek equilibrium. E.g. balance. If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. Stein’s Law. Break it at your own risk.
    Whatever happens to the man, it’ll only be what he has brought down on his own head.

  464. wj encapsulates Locke’s 2nd Treatise on Government in two sentences at 3:55. And I never tire of FDR’s famous four.
    This isn’t Stalinist Russia. We don’t live under tyranny. Incompetence, cupidity, annoying bureaucratic bullshit, yes. It’s a big country and not everyone wants the same thing, so inefficiency, at a minimum, is a given. Pretty much everything government does is benefiting somebody, somewhere, and by far not always in a corrupt sense. Your pointless annoying regulation is somebody else’s lifesaver.
    If the overall balance of cui bono seems out of wack, exert yourself to change it. You are not without resources.
    When I ask libertarians what it is that they want to be doing that government is preventing them from doing, I’m always amazed at what small beer it is. E.g. good old Brett’s incandescent chicken coop warmer. Or whatever the hell that dude’s name was that mustered up the free-lance patriotic militia because the feds wanted him to pay for grazing his damned cows.
    Imagine being some Bureau of the Interior agent’s husband or wife and getting a call that your spouse wasn’t coming home that night, because some asshole didn’t want to pay for grazing his cows.
    Maybe the stuff that bugs you is much more consequential, but mostly the stuff that people complain about with government is stuff that is actually useful to somebody, just not them.
    Absent government – not the mythical ‘night watchman’ government of the libertarian dream, but the government we actually have right now – no small number of other actors would crush you like a damned bug and not think twice about it. And they wouldn’t need a damned gun to do it, there are a hundred and one other ways for one bad actor or another to fnck you the hell up.
    Government annoys the hell out of me every single day, and I’m glad it’s there every single day. Funny, that.
    YMMV
    In other news, it would appear that, politically speaking, Trump is a dead man walking. Maybe not, he’s had a pretty good track record of pressing his luck miles and miles beyond what he ought to have gotten away with. But hubris attracts nemesis, like night follows day. It’s written in our freaking human souls.
    All systems seek equilibrium. E.g. balance. If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. Stein’s Law. Break it at your own risk.
    Whatever happens to the man, it’ll only be what he has brought down on his own head.

  471. While I can see the attraction of blaming Brexit on foreign interference, I think you’re overestimating Putin a little bit to put it mildly – we have enough idiots of our own.

  472. While I can see the attraction of blaming Brexit on foreign interference, I think you’re overestimating Putin a little bit to put it mildly – we have enough idiots of our own.

  473. Oh, it *absolutely* was foreign interference!
    As in, the intersteller cloud of Dumbf (27% of the mass of the universe! where have I heard that number before?1??) that our solar system has been passing through.
    As Einstein apocryphally said: “There are two things I know are infinite: the Universe, and Dumbf. And I’m not sure about the Universe”.

  474. Oh, it *absolutely* was foreign interference!
    As in, the intersteller cloud of Dumbf (27% of the mass of the universe! where have I heard that number before?1??) that our solar system has been passing through.
    As Einstein apocryphally said: “There are two things I know are infinite: the Universe, and Dumbf. And I’m not sure about the Universe”.

  477. Pretty cool ending to the World Series. The Nationals bullpen held up and the Astros’, against all assumptions, got lit up.
    Looks as if the Deep State Nationals can win on the road.
    Scary:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/10/trump-campaigns-halloween-event-was-nonsensical/601177/
    I love that they place the press gaggle in a cage and then insult and throw cabbage at the reporters, even at there dumb dress-ups.
    The press should return the favor and dress up like mass school, church, theater shooters with real ammo and make Gatling gun noises with their mouths.
    Tonight, it’s Karaoke Halloween at my local watering hole. We’re asked to come as a dead celebrity. With a few minor cosmetic adjustments, I’m going as John Lennon. Will sing “I Am The Walrus”, as well as one of the early Beatle hits, as yet undecided, and perhaps, “Nobody Told Me”, from his last record (“Nobody told me there would be days like these”)
    Indeed. From the lips of one dead Founder after another.
    Next year, if we repeat the dead celebrity theme, while specifying disembowelment as the cause of death, I’m going as the Republican Party.

  478. Pretty cool ending to the World Series. The Nationals bullpen held up and the Astros’, against all assumptions, got lit up.
    Looks as if the Deep State Nationals can win on the road.
    Scary:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/10/trump-campaigns-halloween-event-was-nonsensical/601177/
    I love that they place the press gaggle in a cage and then insult and throw cabbage at the reporters, even at there dumb dress-ups.
    The press should return the favor and dress up like mass school, church, theater shooters with real ammo and make Gatling gun noises with their mouths.
    Tonight, it’s Karaoke Halloween at my local watering hole. We’re asked to come as a dead celebrity. With a few minor cosmetic adjustments, I’m going as John Lennon. Will sing “I Am The Walrus”, as well as one of the early Beatle hits, as yet undecided, and perhaps, “Nobody Told Me”, from his last record (“Nobody told me there would be days like these”)
    Indeed. From the lips of one dead Founder after another.
    Next year, if we repeat the dead celebrity theme, while specifying disembowelment as the cause of death, I’m going as the Republican Party.

  483. I actually remember those days right after the 2016 election…the shock, the utter dejection, the denial, the anger. But I was drunk most of the time.
    Then Marty reassured us that no matter what an asshole Trump is, there is only so much damage he could do….and that our democracy would survive.
    And, given our traditional institutional barriers, I pretty much agreed with him.
    Now? Well, I am not so sure. The GOP is enabling this president’s criminality. They are trodding a dangerous road that cannot end well. They are denying the very political legitimacy of their political opponents, the Democratic Party.
    This is the final straw in my pledge to never, ever, vote for ANY Republican candidate. The political institution of which they are a member, to which they have pledged their support, is something that must utterly be destroyed.
    But then again, maybe Marty or McKinney will join in and tell me what I really think.

  484. I actually remember those days right after the 2016 election…the shock, the utter dejection, the denial, the anger. But I was drunk most of the time.
    Then Marty reassured us that no matter what an asshole Trump is, there is only so much damage he could do….and that our democracy would survive.
    And, given our traditional institutional barriers, I pretty much agreed with him.
    Now? Well, I am not so sure. The GOP is enabling this president’s criminality. They are trodding a dangerous road that cannot end well. They are denying the very political legitimacy of their political opponents, the Democratic Party.
    This is the final straw in my pledge to never, ever, vote for ANY Republican candidate. The political institution of which they are a member, to which they have pledged their support, is something that must utterly be destroyed.
    But then again, maybe Marty or McKinney will join in and tell me what I really think.

  485. unsurprisingly, both the number of people self-reporting as Republican and the support for Trump among those people are currently within a point of where they were Nov 2016, according to Gallup.
    nothing will sway them. they adore their corrupt deficit-exploding conman.

  486. unsurprisingly, both the number of people self-reporting as Republican and the support for Trump among those people are currently within a point of where they were Nov 2016, according to Gallup.
    nothing will sway them. they adore their corrupt deficit-exploding conman.

  487. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/jason-chaffetz-obama-would-have-been-impeached-under-standards-democrats-are-applying-to-trump
    This was retweeted in my feed this morning. Nothing new here bobbyp. I am sure I will never vote for a Democrat, but I only have a few chances left. I also dont much care if Trump gets impeached.
    He has now appointed a quarter of the federal appeals court judges, two supreme, rolled back all of Obama’s executive overreach,created a business friendly environment while taking on the worst of Chinas trade issues, continued to isolate Iran and started the process of untangling us from being the world’s police force.
    As crude and unacceptable as his personal and Presidential behavior is I would be happy to see him get removed, as that would almost assure a Republican President next year. That’s the one you should worry about. Our Democratic institutions seem to be holding up fine so far.
    I’m not concerned with repeating back to you what you think.

  488. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/jason-chaffetz-obama-would-have-been-impeached-under-standards-democrats-are-applying-to-trump
    This was retweeted in my feed this morning. Nothing new here bobbyp. I am sure I will never vote for a Democrat, but I only have a few chances left. I also dont much care if Trump gets impeached.
    He has now appointed a quarter of the federal appeals court judges, two supreme, rolled back all of Obama’s executive overreach,created a business friendly environment while taking on the worst of Chinas trade issues, continued to isolate Iran and started the process of untangling us from being the world’s police force.
    As crude and unacceptable as his personal and Presidential behavior is I would be happy to see him get removed, as that would almost assure a Republican President next year. That’s the one you should worry about. Our Democratic institutions seem to be holding up fine so far.
    I’m not concerned with repeating back to you what you think.

  491. I thought this was interesting. Up to forty-five minutes of uninterrupted questioning for Schiff and Nunes, rather than the usual five that everyone else is going to get.
    https://www.vox.com/2019/10/31/20941811/most-important-democrats-impeachment-resolution
    Rs might try to make the case that the Ds are pulling a fast one here, but Nunes gets the same latitude. Perhaps it will be the proverbial rope of sufficient length to hang himself with. He regularly comes up with some doozies. Not that it would bother the faithful, but others might notice. He’s be smart to use a proxy, which is also allowed.

  492. I thought this was interesting. Up to forty-five minutes of uninterrupted questioning for Schiff and Nunes, rather than the usual five that everyone else is going to get.
    https://www.vox.com/2019/10/31/20941811/most-important-democrats-impeachment-resolution
    Rs might try to make the case that the Ds are pulling a fast one here, but Nunes gets the same latitude. Perhaps it will be the proverbial rope of sufficient length to hang himself with. He regularly comes up with some doozies. Not that it would bother the faithful, but others might notice. He’s be smart to use a proxy, which is also allowed.

  493. he’d better use a proxy. nobody’s going to sit through 45 minutes of Nunes’ streetcorner psycho ravings.

  494. he’d better use a proxy. nobody’s going to sit through 45 minutes of Nunes’ streetcorner psycho ravings.

  495. like i said
    LOL
    I read Marty’s list and I ask myself “why is any of that good?”.
    We don’t all want the same things. We don’t think the same things are good or worthwhile, we have profoundly different values.
    Trump will go sooner or later, and there will still be a large minority in this country who think all of the policy points Marty outlines are outstanding. Many of them will look back fondly on Trump. Maybe he’ll even be some kind of weird elder statesman, like Nixon and Kissinger. Or everybody’s favorite happy-go-lucky buddy, like W now that he can’t do any harm any more.
    Keep enjoying those tax cuts Marty!

  496. like i said
    LOL
    I read Marty’s list and I ask myself “why is any of that good?”.
    We don’t all want the same things. We don’t think the same things are good or worthwhile, we have profoundly different values.
    Trump will go sooner or later, and there will still be a large minority in this country who think all of the policy points Marty outlines are outstanding. Many of them will look back fondly on Trump. Maybe he’ll even be some kind of weird elder statesman, like Nixon and Kissinger. Or everybody’s favorite happy-go-lucky buddy, like W now that he can’t do any harm any more.
    Keep enjoying those tax cuts Marty!

  497. 1. He has now appointed a quarter of the federal appeals court judges, two supreme, 2. rolled back all of Obama’s executive overreach,3. created a business friendly environment 4. while taking on the worst of Chinas trade issues, 5. continued to isolate Iran and 6. started the process of untangling us from being the world’s police force.
    In the case of item 1, he has appointed several judges whom the bar association considers unqualified, and one supreme who is probably an attempted rapist and a liar.
    In the case of item 2, I cannot comment because I don’t know enough (although my impression is that he has done plenty of executive overreach of his own – but as I say, I don’t know for sure so feel free to ignore).
    In the case of item 3, it is hard to see how this is going to be a business-friendly environment with the deficit ballooning to a trillion dollars, and growth stalling.
    In the case of item 4, I believe that even some of his staunch farming supporters are starting to get a little worried about the effects of the trade war with China.
    In the case of item 5, isolating Iran will almost certainly result in dire consequences, in the opinion of almost everybody in the world qualified to comment on this, which of course lets out Trump and his entire administration.
    In the case of item 6, it will be interesting to see the results in the years to come of America’s dereliction of its duty in helping to support its allies, and prevent the kind of human rights abuses (along with climate change) which will result in more mass movement of refugees.
    I’m prepared to accept that the tax cuts issue is exaggerated in its influence on Marty’s thinking, but I do believe that his (and many Rs’) preparedness to believe that black is white and up is down, because the rightwing talking points say so, is the real problem.

  498. 1. He has now appointed a quarter of the federal appeals court judges, two supreme, 2. rolled back all of Obama’s executive overreach,3. created a business friendly environment 4. while taking on the worst of Chinas trade issues, 5. continued to isolate Iran and 6. started the process of untangling us from being the world’s police force.
    In the case of item 1, he has appointed several judges whom the bar association considers unqualified, and one supreme who is probably an attempted rapist and a liar.
    In the case of item 2, I cannot comment because I don’t know enough (although my impression is that he has done plenty of executive overreach of his own – but as I say, I don’t know for sure so feel free to ignore).
    In the case of item 3, it is hard to see how this is going to be a business-friendly environment with the deficit ballooning to a trillion dollars, and growth stalling.
    In the case of item 4, I believe that even some of his staunch farming supporters are starting to get a little worried about the effects of the trade war with China.
    In the case of item 5, isolating Iran will almost certainly result in dire consequences, in the opinion of almost everybody in the world qualified to comment on this, which of course lets out Trump and his entire administration.
    In the case of item 6, it will be interesting to see the results in the years to come of America’s dereliction of its duty in helping to support its allies, and prevent the kind of human rights abuses (along with climate change) which will result in more mass movement of refugees.
    I’m prepared to accept that the tax cuts issue is exaggerated in its influence on Marty’s thinking, but I do believe that his (and many Rs’) preparedness to believe that black is white and up is down, because the rightwing talking points say so, is the real problem.

  499. “Nobody Told Me”, from his last record (“Nobody told me there would be days like these”)
    JDT, I meant to say earlier, that thinking of this lyric suddenly made me think of the first verse of the poem Report on Experience by Edmund Blunden (wj, I think he used to teach English lit at HK U, weren’t you there?)

    I have been young, and now am not too old;
    And I have seen the righteous forsaken,
    His health, his honour and his quality taken.
    This is not what we were formerly told.

    The last verse goes rather religious and more optimistic, but personally I keep finding myself thinking, as the world goes to hell in a handbasket, This is not what we were formerly told.

  500. “Nobody Told Me”, from his last record (“Nobody told me there would be days like these”)
    JDT, I meant to say earlier, that thinking of this lyric suddenly made me think of the first verse of the poem Report on Experience by Edmund Blunden (wj, I think he used to teach English lit at HK U, weren’t you there?)

    I have been young, and now am not too old;
    And I have seen the righteous forsaken,
    His health, his honour and his quality taken.
    This is not what we were formerly told.

    The last verse goes rather religious and more optimistic, but personally I keep finding myself thinking, as the world goes to hell in a handbasket, This is not what we were formerly told.

  501. In the last 8 presidential elections, the Republican party has won the popular vote just once. Yet it has a highly partisan majority on the Supreme Court. Marty thinks that’s a good thing, I think it’s a disaster. In particular, because of the far right bloc’s desire to keep its party in power, it wrongly decided the partisan gerrymandering cases in the summer (Rucho v Common Cause), with an embarrassingly feeble argument. That was a statement that the Republican Party can cheat its way to permanent minority rule, and the Supreme Court will do nothing to stand in its way.

  502. In the last 8 presidential elections, the Republican party has won the popular vote just once. Yet it has a highly partisan majority on the Supreme Court. Marty thinks that’s a good thing, I think it’s a disaster. In particular, because of the far right bloc’s desire to keep its party in power, it wrongly decided the partisan gerrymandering cases in the summer (Rucho v Common Cause), with an embarrassingly feeble argument. That was a statement that the Republican Party can cheat its way to permanent minority rule, and the Supreme Court will do nothing to stand in its way.

  503. Marty is delighted to remain the welfare queen of voting power. He loves it when the government takes votes from Californians and gives them to North Dakotans.

  504. Marty is delighted to remain the welfare queen of voting power. He loves it when the government takes votes from Californians and gives them to North Dakotans.

  505. (wj, I think he used to teach English lit at HK U, weren’t you there?)
    Nope. The only part of Asia I’ve been to is Japan. (Well, I did change planes in Korea.) Sorry, not me.

  506. (wj, I think he used to teach English lit at HK U, weren’t you there?)
    Nope. The only part of Asia I’ve been to is Japan. (Well, I did change planes in Korea.) Sorry, not me.

  507. GftNC, I keep rewriting this but cant make it nice.
    I find it beyond belief that our actions could be termed a dereliction of our “duties”. We have every right to end a military venture in a part of the world we shouldnt be in and to use whatever diplomatic means we have available to help mitigate the downsides. Even if done poorly, it isnt our “duty” to stay.
    If NATO, our allies, were there with us we could talk about abandoning our allies, as our allies have refused to support us time and again.
    But defining us as the unfaithful ally is incredibly bold.

  508. GftNC, I keep rewriting this but cant make it nice.
    I find it beyond belief that our actions could be termed a dereliction of our “duties”. We have every right to end a military venture in a part of the world we shouldnt be in and to use whatever diplomatic means we have available to help mitigate the downsides. Even if done poorly, it isnt our “duty” to stay.
    If NATO, our allies, were there with us we could talk about abandoning our allies, as our allies have refused to support us time and again.
    But defining us as the unfaithful ally is incredibly bold.

  511. If NATO, our allies, were there with us we could talk about abandoning our allies, as our allies have refused to support us time and again.
    So, because the Kurds aren’t in NATO, they don’t count as allies?

  512. If NATO, our allies, were there with us we could talk about abandoning our allies, as our allies have refused to support us time and again.
    So, because the Kurds aren’t in NATO, they don’t count as allies?

  513. The Kurds gave up thousands of lives in the Syrian conflict. To our advantage, and fighting alongside our people.
    We screwed them over.
    I define us as the unfaithful ally. How bold of me.

  514. The Kurds gave up thousands of lives in the Syrian conflict. To our advantage, and fighting alongside our people.
    We screwed them over.
    I define us as the unfaithful ally. How bold of me.

  515. Yes sapient, I think you’re right and that it was dr ngo.
    Marty,the US is not the only country which has had to shoulder such a duty, just the only one to so blatantly shirk it in recent history, and in defiance of its own longterm interests. And as for your allies refusing to support you, what are you referring to? This sounds to me pretty much a pure Trump talking point, unless you can give proper examples… (tomorrow that is, I’m off to bed, good night all)

  516. Yes sapient, I think you’re right and that it was dr ngo.
    Marty,the US is not the only country which has had to shoulder such a duty, just the only one to so blatantly shirk it in recent history, and in defiance of its own longterm interests. And as for your allies refusing to support you, what are you referring to? This sounds to me pretty much a pure Trump talking point, unless you can give proper examples… (tomorrow that is, I’m off to bed, good night all)

  519. Donald Trump is a craven scumbag of a human being, who has no regard whatsoever for the weight or responsibilities of the office he holds. He is a man utterly devoid of even the most rudimentary sense of honor, who appears to be incapable of anything other than the most grossly transactional connection to other human beings, preferably to his own advantage.
    The (R) party, virtually to a person, have decided to support him lock stock and barrel.
    You come here to argue in their defense, because of tax cuts, deregulation, and “business friendly” policies.
    I’m sorry, but that us simply not a position for which I can summon any respect. FWIW.

  520. Donald Trump is a craven scumbag of a human being, who has no regard whatsoever for the weight or responsibilities of the office he holds. He is a man utterly devoid of even the most rudimentary sense of honor, who appears to be incapable of anything other than the most grossly transactional connection to other human beings, preferably to his own advantage.
    The (R) party, virtually to a person, have decided to support him lock stock and barrel.
    You come here to argue in their defense, because of tax cuts, deregulation, and “business friendly” policies.
    I’m sorry, but that us simply not a position for which I can summon any respect. FWIW.

  521. here’s Nunes, quoting from the case of Rubber v Glue:

    That Rep. Devin Nunes serves as the ranking member on something called the Intelligence Committee has always been a contradiction in terms. The California Republican displayed his intellectual heft earlier this year by suing a fictitious dairy cow that was mean to him on Twitter.
    Even so, what he said on the House floor during Thursday’s debate to authorize a formal impeachment inquiry was jaw-dropping. He railed about the sort of person who believes in “conspiracy theories” and relies on “defamation and slander,” who spins a “preposterous narrative” with “no evidence” and only “bizarre obsession.”
    Surely he was describing one Donald J. Trump to a T?
    On the contrary, Nunes applied these Trumpian signatures to Democrats. “What we’re seeing among Democrats on the Intelligence Committee,” he said, “is like a cult. These are a group of people loyally following their leader as he bounces from one outlandish conspiracy to another.”

    fuck everyone who supports this fraudulent enterprise.

  522. here’s Nunes, quoting from the case of Rubber v Glue:

    That Rep. Devin Nunes serves as the ranking member on something called the Intelligence Committee has always been a contradiction in terms. The California Republican displayed his intellectual heft earlier this year by suing a fictitious dairy cow that was mean to him on Twitter.
    Even so, what he said on the House floor during Thursday’s debate to authorize a formal impeachment inquiry was jaw-dropping. He railed about the sort of person who believes in “conspiracy theories” and relies on “defamation and slander,” who spins a “preposterous narrative” with “no evidence” and only “bizarre obsession.”
    Surely he was describing one Donald J. Trump to a T?
    On the contrary, Nunes applied these Trumpian signatures to Democrats. “What we’re seeing among Democrats on the Intelligence Committee,” he said, “is like a cult. These are a group of people loyally following their leader as he bounces from one outlandish conspiracy to another.”

    fuck everyone who supports this fraudulent enterprise.

  523. In the last 8 presidential elections, the Republican party has won the popular vote just once
    The (R) party, due to quirks in our Constitution and the geographic distribution of different demographics, holds power that is not justified by the size of their constituency.
    What cannot continue, will stop.
    Better wise up. Sooner better than later.

  524. In the last 8 presidential elections, the Republican party has won the popular vote just once
    The (R) party, due to quirks in our Constitution and the geographic distribution of different demographics, holds power that is not justified by the size of their constituency.
    What cannot continue, will stop.
    Better wise up. Sooner better than later.

  525. I personally cant wait for Trump to be gone, the gop and conservatives wont be. My complete disdain for foreign wars will take a hit. In fact it is the single non gop basic thing that I agree with Trump on. Whoever replaces him is sure to go back to doing our “duty” at the beck and call if our allies.
    Not that Trump has really made a dent.

  526. I personally cant wait for Trump to be gone, the gop and conservatives wont be. My complete disdain for foreign wars will take a hit. In fact it is the single non gop basic thing that I agree with Trump on. Whoever replaces him is sure to go back to doing our “duty” at the beck and call if our allies.
    Not that Trump has really made a dent.

  527. Wise up to what? That the current system works just as designed? That the Democrats move further left daily? That the left keeps decrying the loss of our democratic institutions while openly complaining about the most fundamental institutions as “quirks”?
    Our democracy is in no danger from Trump, it is from the Democrats trying to regain power st any cist.

  528. Wise up to what? That the current system works just as designed? That the Democrats move further left daily? That the left keeps decrying the loss of our democratic institutions while openly complaining about the most fundamental institutions as “quirks”?
    Our democracy is in no danger from Trump, it is from the Democrats trying to regain power st any cist.

  531. the Democrats move further left daily
    In a healthy party, whether it is basically liberal or basically conservative, the party moves “to the left” all the time. That’s because the world changes. Constantly. And if you’re healthy, you adapt to that.
    Left and right basically differ in how big a steps they think best to take in the course of that adaption. I incline to smaller steps than most here, which makes me the local conservative.
    But to insist that change stop, and that things return to some mythic Golden Age in the past (often, though not always, the speaker’s youth . . . as he remembers it anyway)? That’s not conservative, it’s reactionary. And it’s both unhealthy and impossible.

  532. the Democrats move further left daily
    In a healthy party, whether it is basically liberal or basically conservative, the party moves “to the left” all the time. That’s because the world changes. Constantly. And if you’re healthy, you adapt to that.
    Left and right basically differ in how big a steps they think best to take in the course of that adaption. I incline to smaller steps than most here, which makes me the local conservative.
    But to insist that change stop, and that things return to some mythic Golden Age in the past (often, though not always, the speaker’s youth . . . as he remembers it anyway)? That’s not conservative, it’s reactionary. And it’s both unhealthy and impossible.

  533. Our democracy is in no danger from Trump,
    Of course, sometimes one can be wrong, not because of how enthused they are about change, but simply because they are delusional. And to see Trump as “no danger” to our democracy requires being delusional.
    You can argue that Trump alone wouldn’t be much of a danger. But he’s not acting alone — in the sense of without support. And because of that support, he is definitely a danger.

  534. Our democracy is in no danger from Trump,
    Of course, sometimes one can be wrong, not because of how enthused they are about change, but simply because they are delusional. And to see Trump as “no danger” to our democracy requires being delusional.
    You can argue that Trump alone wouldn’t be much of a danger. But he’s not acting alone — in the sense of without support. And because of that support, he is definitely a danger.

  535. I personally cant wait for Trump to be gone
    (to continue)…and I shall not lift a finger to make that happen, because I have my wingnut judges, my tax cuts for the rich, my putting the government’s thumb on the scale favoring sociopathic “business” interests, stabbing allies in the back, state sanctioned religious bigotry, putting people in cages, suborning the Dept. of Justice to blatantly political ends, institutionalizing state warfare on organized labor, finding ways to legalize the denial of the vote to ‘those people (cough, cough), killing people with patently absurd health care public policy, and crushing the middle and lower classes.
    What’s not to like?
    But Clinton told a fib about a blowjob.
    The “watchman state” in action, folks.
    Jesus fucking christ.

  536. I personally cant wait for Trump to be gone
    (to continue)…and I shall not lift a finger to make that happen, because I have my wingnut judges, my tax cuts for the rich, my putting the government’s thumb on the scale favoring sociopathic “business” interests, stabbing allies in the back, state sanctioned religious bigotry, putting people in cages, suborning the Dept. of Justice to blatantly political ends, institutionalizing state warfare on organized labor, finding ways to legalize the denial of the vote to ‘those people (cough, cough), killing people with patently absurd health care public policy, and crushing the middle and lower classes.
    What’s not to like?
    But Clinton told a fib about a blowjob.
    The “watchman state” in action, folks.
    Jesus fucking christ.

  537. Marty, when did your allies refuse to support you, other than in Trump’s delusional ravings? (I know Harold Wilson refused to support the Vietnam War, but given your “disdain for foreign wars” presumably you approved of that, and anyway, that was a long time ago.)

  538. Marty, when did your allies refuse to support you, other than in Trump’s delusional ravings? (I know Harold Wilson refused to support the Vietnam War, but given your “disdain for foreign wars” presumably you approved of that, and anyway, that was a long time ago.)

  545. For info on allies supporting us, check out Afghanistan. Which, be it noted, is the only time NATO’s mutual defense has been activated — and it was everybody else coming to our aid.
    Yet the meeping is always about them not supporting us. Even though they’ve been fighting and dying. But I suppose that, for some, money is far more important than lives….

  546. For info on allies supporting us, check out Afghanistan. Which, be it noted, is the only time NATO’s mutual defense has been activated — and it was everybody else coming to our aid.
    Yet the meeping is always about them not supporting us. Even though they’ve been fighting and dying. But I suppose that, for some, money is far more important than lives….

  547. R’s are traitors to democracy. They support dictators, and reject our alliances. Let’s quit being coy. (And, of course, wj, I don’t mean you. I mean people who support current R’s in the White House and in Congress.)

  548. R’s are traitors to democracy. They support dictators, and reject our alliances. Let’s quit being coy. (And, of course, wj, I don’t mean you. I mean people who support current R’s in the White House and in Congress.)

  549. Wise up to what?
    That the power the (R)’s hold in national government is out of scale with the size of their constituency. And that the fuckery they engage in to retain and exercise that power is offensive.
    What cannot continue will stop. What cannot be tolerated, won’t be.
    As far as “quirks” – the purpose of the Senate is to provide a deliberative body intended to counter what was anticipated to be the more volatile, and more democratically representative, House. To the degree that it is non- or counter-democratic, the intent was to prevent the rights and interests of regions and demographics that were naturally in the minority – e.g., at the time of the founding, the smaller states – from being overrun by their larger counterparts.
    The purpose was not to allow minority interests to utterly obstruct the . actual will and interests of the people. Which is what the (R) Senate is engaged in now. It won’t stand, and shouldn’t. They will likely pay for it in the next couple of election cycles, and should.
    The Electoral College is, actually, a quirk, and in the context of a literate and educated population with universal sufferage, it serves no useful purpose. We are a nation of people – “We the People” not “We the States” – and the POTUS is president of the people, not president of the states. The POTUS should be elected by popular vote. The EC needs to go. Sooner done, the better.
    Our institutions hold because some number of people still exist in them that are willing to put themselves and their careers at risk to get in the damned way of Trump and the (R)’s. I’m not talking about the (D)’s, I’m talking about people like Vindman et al. The process you ignorantly persist in calling a “coup” is exactly the process of our institutions preventing the POTUS and his circle of corrupt hacks from subverting them for their own personal corrupt ends. The people and institutions that people like you ignorantly persist in calling the “deep state” is simply the state. It is the government of the United States, proceeding in a measured and deliberative way to show a fucking corrupt mendacious con-man the door.
    More power to them, may they succeed. Sooner done, best done.
    I doubt you know what “the left” even means in political or economic terms. You give no evidence of it here. The number of people in government who could accurately be called “leftist” can probably be counted on one hand. What you call “the left” is people trying to restore a balance that functioned quite well, for fifty years, in spreading the wealth of the nation relatively equitably, with all of the benefits that that provided.
    The (R)’s have been doing their best to destroy that for the last 40 years. I despise them for it.
    Yes, (R)’s and conservatives will still be around after Trump. They need to act as, and be treated as, the minority voice that they actually are. It’s all they deserve, and all they should receive. They are on their way to forfeiting any legitimate claim to even that.

  550. Wise up to what?
    That the power the (R)’s hold in national government is out of scale with the size of their constituency. And that the fuckery they engage in to retain and exercise that power is offensive.
    What cannot continue will stop. What cannot be tolerated, won’t be.
    As far as “quirks” – the purpose of the Senate is to provide a deliberative body intended to counter what was anticipated to be the more volatile, and more democratically representative, House. To the degree that it is non- or counter-democratic, the intent was to prevent the rights and interests of regions and demographics that were naturally in the minority – e.g., at the time of the founding, the smaller states – from being overrun by their larger counterparts.
    The purpose was not to allow minority interests to utterly obstruct the . actual will and interests of the people. Which is what the (R) Senate is engaged in now. It won’t stand, and shouldn’t. They will likely pay for it in the next couple of election cycles, and should.
    The Electoral College is, actually, a quirk, and in the context of a literate and educated population with universal sufferage, it serves no useful purpose. We are a nation of people – “We the People” not “We the States” – and the POTUS is president of the people, not president of the states. The POTUS should be elected by popular vote. The EC needs to go. Sooner done, the better.
    Our institutions hold because some number of people still exist in them that are willing to put themselves and their careers at risk to get in the damned way of Trump and the (R)’s. I’m not talking about the (D)’s, I’m talking about people like Vindman et al. The process you ignorantly persist in calling a “coup” is exactly the process of our institutions preventing the POTUS and his circle of corrupt hacks from subverting them for their own personal corrupt ends. The people and institutions that people like you ignorantly persist in calling the “deep state” is simply the state. It is the government of the United States, proceeding in a measured and deliberative way to show a fucking corrupt mendacious con-man the door.
    More power to them, may they succeed. Sooner done, best done.
    I doubt you know what “the left” even means in political or economic terms. You give no evidence of it here. The number of people in government who could accurately be called “leftist” can probably be counted on one hand. What you call “the left” is people trying to restore a balance that functioned quite well, for fifty years, in spreading the wealth of the nation relatively equitably, with all of the benefits that that provided.
    The (R)’s have been doing their best to destroy that for the last 40 years. I despise them for it.
    Yes, (R)’s and conservatives will still be around after Trump. They need to act as, and be treated as, the minority voice that they actually are. It’s all they deserve, and all they should receive. They are on their way to forfeiting any legitimate claim to even that.

  553. …it is from the Democrats trying to regain power st (at) any cist (cost).
    What radical steps have Democrats taken that lead you to use the “at any cost” formulation? I hope there’s something more radical than depositions and votes that you can point to, because depositions and votes aren’t radical.

  554. …it is from the Democrats trying to regain power st (at) any cist (cost).
    What radical steps have Democrats taken that lead you to use the “at any cost” formulation? I hope there’s something more radical than depositions and votes that you can point to, because depositions and votes aren’t radical.

  555. trying to regain power st any cist.
    for example:

    1. soliciting / demanding the help of foreign powers for partisan electoral gain.
    2. throwing up barriers to hinder specific demographic groups from voting
    3. MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    4. abandoning decades of pious “conservative” rhetoric in order to (literally) worship a corrupt sexual predator and bankruptcy fetishist just because he brings the judges to the yard.

    frauds, every goddamned one of you.

  556. trying to regain power st any cist.
    for example:

    1. soliciting / demanding the help of foreign powers for partisan electoral gain.
    2. throwing up barriers to hinder specific demographic groups from voting
    3. MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    4. abandoning decades of pious “conservative” rhetoric in order to (literally) worship a corrupt sexual predator and bankruptcy fetishist just because he brings the judges to the yard.

    frauds, every goddamned one of you.

  557. Funny my corrupt sexual predator is your hallowed Bill Clinton, whataboutism at its finest. Merruck Garland is still a red herring, we are pretty successful at restraining the politicians on right to vote issues, and number 1 is just stupid. Investigating malfeasance by the VP and his son is not a lot different than what the Dems have been trying to do for three years. It’s ironic they think the smoking gun is something Buden admits to doing.

  558. Funny my corrupt sexual predator is your hallowed Bill Clinton, whataboutism at its finest. Merruck Garland is still a red herring, we are pretty successful at restraining the politicians on right to vote issues, and number 1 is just stupid. Investigating malfeasance by the VP and his son is not a lot different than what the Dems have been trying to do for three years. It’s ironic they think the smoking gun is something Buden admits to doing.

  559. So far in this thread I’ve been called looney tunes and told I’m ignorantly ignoring something, among other insults.
    So if Turkey is a NATO member thus our allies cant stand beside us, how is it our “duty” to be there?

  560. So far in this thread I’ve been called looney tunes and told I’m ignorantly ignoring something, among other insults.
    So if Turkey is a NATO member thus our allies cant stand beside us, how is it our “duty” to be there?

  561. The Electoral College is, actually, a quirk, and in the context of a literate and educated population with universal suffrage, it serves no useful purpose.
    From wikipedia:

    The Constitution created the offices of President and Vice President, fully separating these offices from Congress. The Constitution established an Electoral College, based on each state’s Congressional representation, in which each elector would cast two votes for two different candidates, a procedure modified in 1804 by ratification of the Twelfth Amendment. Different states had varying methods for choosing presidential electors.[2] In five states, the state legislature chose electors. The other six chose electors through some form involving a popular vote, though in only two states did the choice depend directly on a statewide vote in a way even roughly resembling the modern method in all states.

    Let it not be lost on us how different the times were when the electoral college came to be.
    More:

    Voter turnout comprised a low single-digit percentage of the adult population. Though all states allowed some rudimentary form of popular vote, only six ratifying states allowed any form of popular vote specifically for Presidential electors. In most states only white men, and in many only those who owned property, could vote. Free black men could vote in four Northern states, and women could vote in New Jersey until 1807. In some states, there was a nominal religious test for voting. For example, in Massachusetts and Connecticut, the Congregational Church was established, supported by taxes. Though such tests and establishments were outlawed by the new federal Constitution, the constitution did not give the courts power to eliminate unconstitutional laws (Marbury v. Madison was not decided until 1803), and the Bill of Rights did not apply to state laws until the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution in 1868.

    Yet, somehow, we still have the electoral college. And the ratio of electoral votes that California gets to what Wyoming gets is far, far less reflective of their relative populations than any such ratio that existed in the early United States.
    There’s no good argument for it.

  562. The Electoral College is, actually, a quirk, and in the context of a literate and educated population with universal suffrage, it serves no useful purpose.
    From wikipedia:

    The Constitution created the offices of President and Vice President, fully separating these offices from Congress. The Constitution established an Electoral College, based on each state’s Congressional representation, in which each elector would cast two votes for two different candidates, a procedure modified in 1804 by ratification of the Twelfth Amendment. Different states had varying methods for choosing presidential electors.[2] In five states, the state legislature chose electors. The other six chose electors through some form involving a popular vote, though in only two states did the choice depend directly on a statewide vote in a way even roughly resembling the modern method in all states.

    Let it not be lost on us how different the times were when the electoral college came to be.
    More:

    Voter turnout comprised a low single-digit percentage of the adult population. Though all states allowed some rudimentary form of popular vote, only six ratifying states allowed any form of popular vote specifically for Presidential electors. In most states only white men, and in many only those who owned property, could vote. Free black men could vote in four Northern states, and women could vote in New Jersey until 1807. In some states, there was a nominal religious test for voting. For example, in Massachusetts and Connecticut, the Congregational Church was established, supported by taxes. Though such tests and establishments were outlawed by the new federal Constitution, the constitution did not give the courts power to eliminate unconstitutional laws (Marbury v. Madison was not decided until 1803), and the Bill of Rights did not apply to state laws until the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution in 1868.

    Yet, somehow, we still have the electoral college. And the ratio of electoral votes that California gets to what Wyoming gets is far, far less reflective of their relative populations than any such ratio that existed in the early United States.
    There’s no good argument for it.

  563. Funny my corrupt sexual predator is your hallowed Bill Clinton, whataboutism at its finest.
    Y’all are good at it.

  564. Funny my corrupt sexual predator is your hallowed Bill Clinton, whataboutism at its finest.
    Y’all are good at it.

  565. So if Turkey is a NATO member thus our allies cant stand beside us, how is it our “duty” to be there?
    It’s about not abandoning the Kurds who have fought and died in support of our interests time and again. What’s so fncking hard to understand about that? It’s a moral duty, not a legal duty.

  566. So if Turkey is a NATO member thus our allies cant stand beside us, how is it our “duty” to be there?
    It’s about not abandoning the Kurds who have fought and died in support of our interests time and again. What’s so fncking hard to understand about that? It’s a moral duty, not a legal duty.

  567. 1. I’ve been called looney tunes
    Well, I was referring to the idiotic story lines you swallow and then regurgitate to us on a semi-regular basis, but if the shoe fits….
    And it was
    Fucking looney tunes,
    for the record.
    2. MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    is not a red herring,
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    is the whole sordid story in a nutshell.
    Talk about your slow-moving “coups”…..
    3. It’s hard, I know, when you don’t have the 3/5ths rule to bolster your overweighted representation any longer. But they’re doing their best to reproduce it one way or another way. This is a footnote to the usual theme of wrs.
    4. “Ignorance” is remediable, but apparently not always. If you don’t like the pushback and exasperation, why do you bother to come here and spout these idiocies? No one else is convinced or even budged, and on your side you only dig in harder as the years go by. If you think anyone here is going to be enlightened by your Fox talking points you’re delusional, and if you’re coming here for the fun of it you sure have a weird idea of entertainment. But hey, you get what you ask for, and for that matter what you pay for.

  568. 1. I’ve been called looney tunes
    Well, I was referring to the idiotic story lines you swallow and then regurgitate to us on a semi-regular basis, but if the shoe fits….
    And it was
    Fucking looney tunes,
    for the record.
    2. MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    is not a red herring,
    MERRICK FUCKING GARLAND
    is the whole sordid story in a nutshell.
    Talk about your slow-moving “coups”…..
    3. It’s hard, I know, when you don’t have the 3/5ths rule to bolster your overweighted representation any longer. But they’re doing their best to reproduce it one way or another way. This is a footnote to the usual theme of wrs.
    4. “Ignorance” is remediable, but apparently not always. If you don’t like the pushback and exasperation, why do you bother to come here and spout these idiocies? No one else is convinced or even budged, and on your side you only dig in harder as the years go by. If you think anyone here is going to be enlightened by your Fox talking points you’re delusional, and if you’re coming here for the fun of it you sure have a weird idea of entertainment. But hey, you get what you ask for, and for that matter what you pay for.

  571. “So far in this thread I’ve been called …”
    And I haven’t even waded in yet.
    Say thank you.
    The day is young.

  572. “So far in this thread I’ve been called …”
    And I haven’t even waded in yet.
    Say thank you.
    The day is young.

  577. Funny my corrupt sexual predator is your hallowed Bill Clinton
    Who the hell is “hallowing” Bill Clinton?
    The Electoral College, like many things in the Constitution, is an attempt at a compromise between parties with different interests.
    The first idea was the Virginia Plan, in which Congress would elect the POTUS. That was seen (correctly) as compromising the separation of powers.
    Several founders, notably Madison, preferred direct election. At the time the Constitution was written, every state had its own rules for who could vote, and the franchise was most restrictive in the slave-holding states. So they didn’t want direct election, because due to their restrictions on who could vote at all, they would come out on the short end.
    The EC was the work-around. Representation in Congress – including the Senate, which further skews the representation in the EC – was to be used as a proxy for the popular vote.
    We no longer have state-by-state rules about who can vote. We no longer have a population that lacks education, literacy, and access to information. We no longer have a population in which most of the people can’t vote in the first place.
    There is no longer a useful purpose for the EC. It results, with increasing frequency, in people holding the office of POTUS who do not have the support of a majority of the population. It’s time for it to go.
    The failure to grant Merrick Garland a hearing was a plain abuse of power by the Senate Majority leader, justified by obvious, transparent ahistorical bullshit that McConnell pulled, hot and steaming, straight out of his ass. It was the most obvious and glaring example of the kind of crap that I am talking about when I say that it’s time for (R)’s to wise up.
    The (R)’s are free to double down on Trump until the cows come home. They have already paid a price for it in the House, and will likely pay for it in 2020. Whatever damage they do to themselves will be richly earned.
    And FWIW, “ignorance” means a lack of information. It means that there are things that can be known, that you don’t know. That is a simple description of a state of mind, not an insult. The point at which it become pejorative is the point at which the lack of information is willfully chosen.
    Trump is a toxic, deliberately divisive, malicious, venal, mendacious, corrupt and corrupting SOB. Always has been, all his life. Getting his back and that of the (R)’s who support him because “hey, judges and tax cuts!” is behavior that I do not and do not care to understand.
    Hard for me to say more without being actually rude, so I’ll leave it at that.

  578. Funny my corrupt sexual predator is your hallowed Bill Clinton
    Who the hell is “hallowing” Bill Clinton?
    The Electoral College, like many things in the Constitution, is an attempt at a compromise between parties with different interests.
    The first idea was the Virginia Plan, in which Congress would elect the POTUS. That was seen (correctly) as compromising the separation of powers.
    Several founders, notably Madison, preferred direct election. At the time the Constitution was written, every state had its own rules for who could vote, and the franchise was most restrictive in the slave-holding states. So they didn’t want direct election, because due to their restrictions on who could vote at all, they would come out on the short end.
    The EC was the work-around. Representation in Congress – including the Senate, which further skews the representation in the EC – was to be used as a proxy for the popular vote.
    We no longer have state-by-state rules about who can vote. We no longer have a population that lacks education, literacy, and access to information. We no longer have a population in which most of the people can’t vote in the first place.
    There is no longer a useful purpose for the EC. It results, with increasing frequency, in people holding the office of POTUS who do not have the support of a majority of the population. It’s time for it to go.
    The failure to grant Merrick Garland a hearing was a plain abuse of power by the Senate Majority leader, justified by obvious, transparent ahistorical bullshit that McConnell pulled, hot and steaming, straight out of his ass. It was the most obvious and glaring example of the kind of crap that I am talking about when I say that it’s time for (R)’s to wise up.
    The (R)’s are free to double down on Trump until the cows come home. They have already paid a price for it in the House, and will likely pay for it in 2020. Whatever damage they do to themselves will be richly earned.
    And FWIW, “ignorance” means a lack of information. It means that there are things that can be known, that you don’t know. That is a simple description of a state of mind, not an insult. The point at which it become pejorative is the point at which the lack of information is willfully chosen.
    Trump is a toxic, deliberately divisive, malicious, venal, mendacious, corrupt and corrupting SOB. Always has been, all his life. Getting his back and that of the (R)’s who support him because “hey, judges and tax cuts!” is behavior that I do not and do not care to understand.
    Hard for me to say more without being actually rude, so I’ll leave it at that.

  579. The biggest move to the left in modern history was when the Dixiecrats bolted to the Republican party because civil rights suck. Addition by subtraction if you ask me.

  580. The biggest move to the left in modern history was when the Dixiecrats bolted to the Republican party because civil rights suck. Addition by subtraction if you ask me.

  581. The real problem russell is that you cant understand how much people like me dont want people like you, or people you like, to be in charge. Swallowing shit from you and Trump is how much. 52 trillion dollars moved from various sources to Democratic government control is a good enough reason.
    The things that are good or ok are extra. Who is not in charge is what matters.

  582. The real problem russell is that you cant understand how much people like me dont want people like you, or people you like, to be in charge. Swallowing shit from you and Trump is how much. 52 trillion dollars moved from various sources to Democratic government control is a good enough reason.
    The things that are good or ok are extra. Who is not in charge is what matters.

  583. And the actual purpose of the EC, so big states couldnt dominate small states, is more important today than ever.

  584. And the actual purpose of the EC, so big states couldnt dominate small states, is more important today than ever.

  585. The real problem russell is that you cant understand how much people like me dont want people like you, or people you like, to be in charge.
    The thing is, Marty, if there are more people like me than people like you, then people like me and/or the people I like actually are supposed to “be in charge”.
    People like you should get a voice and a seat at the table. People like you should not be driving the bus. It’s not your right, you have no claim to it.
    Get your fucking head around that.
    Swallowing shit from you and Trump is how much.
    If that’s working for you, carry on.

  586. The real problem russell is that you cant understand how much people like me dont want people like you, or people you like, to be in charge.
    The thing is, Marty, if there are more people like me than people like you, then people like me and/or the people I like actually are supposed to “be in charge”.
    People like you should get a voice and a seat at the table. People like you should not be driving the bus. It’s not your right, you have no claim to it.
    Get your fucking head around that.
    Swallowing shit from you and Trump is how much.
    If that’s working for you, carry on.

  587. The real problem russell is that you cant understand how much people like me dont want people like you, or people you like, to be in charge.
    I don’t think that’s the real problem. I don’t even think it’s true. No one wants people they think are deeply wrong to be in charge. That’s not big news. And it goes both ways.
    In any case, anti-democratic practices remain anti-democratic, and generally don’t appeal to people who like democracy.

  588. The real problem russell is that you cant understand how much people like me dont want people like you, or people you like, to be in charge.
    I don’t think that’s the real problem. I don’t even think it’s true. No one wants people they think are deeply wrong to be in charge. That’s not big news. And it goes both ways.
    In any case, anti-democratic practices remain anti-democratic, and generally don’t appeal to people who like democracy.

  589. You have no more right to be in charge, in fact, by the rules you have no right so far.
    Get your fucking head around that.
    People like you just want to change the rules to gain control, in most every endeavor in life I have little sympathy for people who whine about the rules being unfair.

  590. You have no more right to be in charge, in fact, by the rules you have no right so far.
    Get your fucking head around that.
    People like you just want to change the rules to gain control, in most every endeavor in life I have little sympathy for people who whine about the rules being unfair.

  591. And the actual purpose of the EC, so big states couldnt dominate small states, is more important today than ever.
    That was one of its purposes. I don’t know if it’s more important today than ever, but I know the relative advantage afforded to smaller states by it is far great than it was when it came into being. Do the math. Wyoming v. California today and Delaware v. Virginia in the late 18th Century. That on top of equal representation in the Senate. That on top of the net inflow of federal dollars. Poor little states. Where’s my violin?

  592. And the actual purpose of the EC, so big states couldnt dominate small states, is more important today than ever.
    That was one of its purposes. I don’t know if it’s more important today than ever, but I know the relative advantage afforded to smaller states by it is far great than it was when it came into being. Do the math. Wyoming v. California today and Delaware v. Virginia in the late 18th Century. That on top of equal representation in the Senate. That on top of the net inflow of federal dollars. Poor little states. Where’s my violin?

  593. …in most every endeavor in life I have little sympathy for people who whine about the rules being unfair.
    Which says nothing about whether the rules are actually unfair, or whether pointing something out and making an argument against it constitutes whining.

  594. …in most every endeavor in life I have little sympathy for people who whine about the rules being unfair.
    Which says nothing about whether the rules are actually unfair, or whether pointing something out and making an argument against it constitutes whining.

  595. You have no more right to be in charge, in fact, by the rules you have no right so far.
    What the hell does this even mean.
    People like you just want to change the rules to gain control
    You have no idea what I want or don’t want.
    in most every endeavor in life I have little sympathy for people who whine about the rules being unfair.
    Whine?
    When the rules are unfair, we change the rules. We’ve done it numerous times. Nothing bad about it.
    Perhaps you’d like only white men with property to vote? Or black people to be property? No? Then WTF are you on about.
    When the rules are unfair or are no longer achieving a useful purpose, we change the rules. There are procedures – rules, if you will – for doing that, and we change them by following those procedures.
    No fucking “whining” involved.
    Trump sucks. The (R)’s suck for getting his back. When and if you get sick of eating shit because you’re getting *their* back, maybe you’ll revisit your support for them. If not, continue to enjoy your shit sandwich. I’m sure Trump and his pals will be happy to keep ’em coming.

  596. You have no more right to be in charge, in fact, by the rules you have no right so far.
    What the hell does this even mean.
    People like you just want to change the rules to gain control
    You have no idea what I want or don’t want.
    in most every endeavor in life I have little sympathy for people who whine about the rules being unfair.
    Whine?
    When the rules are unfair, we change the rules. We’ve done it numerous times. Nothing bad about it.
    Perhaps you’d like only white men with property to vote? Or black people to be property? No? Then WTF are you on about.
    When the rules are unfair or are no longer achieving a useful purpose, we change the rules. There are procedures – rules, if you will – for doing that, and we change them by following those procedures.
    No fucking “whining” involved.
    Trump sucks. The (R)’s suck for getting his back. When and if you get sick of eating shit because you’re getting *their* back, maybe you’ll revisit your support for them. If not, continue to enjoy your shit sandwich. I’m sure Trump and his pals will be happy to keep ’em coming.

  599. people who whine about the rules being unfair.
    Sometimes the rules are in fact unfair, and if you want to petulantly call working to change them “whining,” well, keep whining yourself. But when they get too unfair, the backlash can be ugly. Best stay out of the way when that happens.

  600. people who whine about the rules being unfair.
    Sometimes the rules are in fact unfair, and if you want to petulantly call working to change them “whining,” well, keep whining yourself. But when they get too unfair, the backlash can be ugly. Best stay out of the way when that happens.

  601. he was more worried about the possibility that the rabble would choose someone unworthy of the office.
    Joke’s on him.

  602. he was more worried about the possibility that the rabble would choose someone unworthy of the office.
    Joke’s on him.

  603. in most every endeavor in life I have little sympathy for people who whine about the rules being unfair.
    as you’ve made clear by your non-stop complaining about the actions and statements of the Congressional GOP regarding the impeachment proceedings.
    or maybe i misremember.

  604. in most every endeavor in life I have little sympathy for people who whine about the rules being unfair.
    as you’ve made clear by your non-stop complaining about the actions and statements of the Congressional GOP regarding the impeachment proceedings.
    or maybe i misremember.

  607. And the actual purpose of the EC, so big states couldnt dominate small states, is more important today than ever.
    I actually get the value of minority demographics – rural voters, whoever – to not have their interests steamrollered by everybody else. I get it, and in fact I support it. Everyone should have a way for their interests to be represented, and considered.
    The practical effect of the EC today, in the 21st C., is that the POTUS is elected by an extremely small handful of people in an extremely small handful of swing states.
    That’s where the campaigning and attention goes, that’s who ends up deciding who gets to be POTUS.
    In terms of presidential elections, every (R) in MA CA and NY might as well stay home. Likewise every (D) in OK SC and WY.
    Not a formula for fair representation – for anyone – or a formula for engaging the population as a whole.
    If the big value of the EC is for some guy in e.g. WY to get seven times as many votes as somebody in e.g. CA, which appears to be the big upside from your point of view, I say that’s perverse, and hardly what was intended.
    But it doesn’t even do that. (D)’s in WY, and (R)’s in CA get literally no vote at all. They are utterly unheard, their voice and their vote is of no consequence whatsoever.

  608. And the actual purpose of the EC, so big states couldnt dominate small states, is more important today than ever.
    I actually get the value of minority demographics – rural voters, whoever – to not have their interests steamrollered by everybody else. I get it, and in fact I support it. Everyone should have a way for their interests to be represented, and considered.
    The practical effect of the EC today, in the 21st C., is that the POTUS is elected by an extremely small handful of people in an extremely small handful of swing states.
    That’s where the campaigning and attention goes, that’s who ends up deciding who gets to be POTUS.
    In terms of presidential elections, every (R) in MA CA and NY might as well stay home. Likewise every (D) in OK SC and WY.
    Not a formula for fair representation – for anyone – or a formula for engaging the population as a whole.
    If the big value of the EC is for some guy in e.g. WY to get seven times as many votes as somebody in e.g. CA, which appears to be the big upside from your point of view, I say that’s perverse, and hardly what was intended.
    But it doesn’t even do that. (D)’s in WY, and (R)’s in CA get literally no vote at all. They are utterly unheard, their voice and their vote is of no consequence whatsoever.

  609. People like you just want to change the rules to gain control
    I’m seeing lots of Republican state legislatures changing the rules on voting to stay in charge. Got some examples of Democrats doing the same that you could share?

  610. People like you just want to change the rules to gain control
    I’m seeing lots of Republican state legislatures changing the rules on voting to stay in charge. Got some examples of Democrats doing the same that you could share?

  611. What is the 42 trillion dollars going into Dem control about? I haven’t heard about this.
    And as for the comment about it being only right to investigate Biden and son for corruption, that is not what any of this is about, much though Trump and Fox would have you think so. If Biden or Hunter Biden were corrupt, it needs to be investigated, just as Trump needs to be investigated for corruption. But every actual objective analysis of the Ukraine situation says this is an absolute red herring obsession of Giuliani’s, with no basis in fact, on the back of which Trump clearly solicited help in investigating American citizens (one of whom is his political rival) as a condition of releasing authorised aid to Ukraine. This is a crime, and yet another example of Trump soliciting foreign help in subverting American democracy. “Nothing to see here” is a rather difficult line to maintain, Marty, unless you are wilfully supporting said subversion.

  612. What is the 42 trillion dollars going into Dem control about? I haven’t heard about this.
    And as for the comment about it being only right to investigate Biden and son for corruption, that is not what any of this is about, much though Trump and Fox would have you think so. If Biden or Hunter Biden were corrupt, it needs to be investigated, just as Trump needs to be investigated for corruption. But every actual objective analysis of the Ukraine situation says this is an absolute red herring obsession of Giuliani’s, with no basis in fact, on the back of which Trump clearly solicited help in investigating American citizens (one of whom is his political rival) as a condition of releasing authorised aid to Ukraine. This is a crime, and yet another example of Trump soliciting foreign help in subverting American democracy. “Nothing to see here” is a rather difficult line to maintain, Marty, unless you are wilfully supporting said subversion.

  613. What is the 42 trillion dollars going into Dem control about? I haven’t heard about this.
    i assume it’s some Fox News Fantasy™ built around Warren’s and/or Sanders’ health care proposals.

  614. What is the 42 trillion dollars going into Dem control about? I haven’t heard about this.
    i assume it’s some Fox News Fantasy™ built around Warren’s and/or Sanders’ health care proposals.

  619. I double-checked.
    Marty’s quote was 52 trillion.
    Probably one of those escalating trumpian/republican rounding lies.

  620. I double-checked.
    Marty’s quote was 52 trillion.
    Probably one of those escalating trumpian/republican rounding lies.

  621. Thanks for the clarification, y’all (O how I love being able to use that!)
    People like you just want to change the rules to gain control
    wj, I assume Marty is referring here to the proposal to abolish the Electoral College, but ignoring most of the arguments about whether or how this would make the system fairer.

  622. Thanks for the clarification, y’all (O how I love being able to use that!)
    People like you just want to change the rules to gain control
    wj, I assume Marty is referring here to the proposal to abolish the Electoral College, but ignoring most of the arguments about whether or how this would make the system fairer.

  623. People like you
    This is actually pretty rich in its own right, especially as applied to russell.
    If I had to make a list of people I’d trust to run things for as close as it’s humanly possible to come to the good of all, russell might well be #1. He would certainly be in the top handful.
    Marty prefers Clickbait. What that tells you about Marty I will leave as an exercise for the reader.

  624. People like you
    This is actually pretty rich in its own right, especially as applied to russell.
    If I had to make a list of people I’d trust to run things for as close as it’s humanly possible to come to the good of all, russell might well be #1. He would certainly be in the top handful.
    Marty prefers Clickbait. What that tells you about Marty I will leave as an exercise for the reader.

  625. I assume Marty is referring here to the proposal to abolish the Electoral College
    Yes, I believe that is correct.
    It assumes that my interest in eliminating the EC is motivated by a desire to “revisit” the 2016 election and “fix it” by removing the winner post-hoc. I.e., “my side” couldn’t win by the rules, so I want to change the rules.
    That’s a lot of assuming.
    It might be of use for someone who wants to make that claim to ask, for example, how long I have held this opinion, and whether it precedes the 2016 election, or even the 2000 election for that matter.
    Then again, it might be of use to simply assume good faith on my part, and make no assumptions at all, but simply to read and respond to what I actually say.
    Whatever.
    Some folks will get sick of eating Trumpian shit sandwiches, and some won’t. Not my circus, not my monkeys.
    Janie, thank you for the kind words, but seriously that would not, remotely, be a good idea. Actually holding and exercising power requires skills and personal qualities that I respect, but sadly do not have.
    I’m good at writing code, playing music, and ranting.

  626. I assume Marty is referring here to the proposal to abolish the Electoral College
    Yes, I believe that is correct.
    It assumes that my interest in eliminating the EC is motivated by a desire to “revisit” the 2016 election and “fix it” by removing the winner post-hoc. I.e., “my side” couldn’t win by the rules, so I want to change the rules.
    That’s a lot of assuming.
    It might be of use for someone who wants to make that claim to ask, for example, how long I have held this opinion, and whether it precedes the 2016 election, or even the 2000 election for that matter.
    Then again, it might be of use to simply assume good faith on my part, and make no assumptions at all, but simply to read and respond to what I actually say.
    Whatever.
    Some folks will get sick of eating Trumpian shit sandwiches, and some won’t. Not my circus, not my monkeys.
    Janie, thank you for the kind words, but seriously that would not, remotely, be a good idea. Actually holding and exercising power requires skills and personal qualities that I respect, but sadly do not have.
    I’m good at writing code, playing music, and ranting.

  627. But it doesn’t even do that. (D)’s in WY, and (R)’s in CA get literally no vote at all. They are utterly unheard, their voice and their vote is of no consequence whatsoever.
    That could be solved without even getting rid of the electoral college. Just apportion the electoral votes in each state to each candidate based on their share of the popular vote in each state. States could do that on their own, but why would they, unless everyone else did it? (I guess we could as Maine and Nebraska.)
    There are ways to compromise on the issue of disproportionate voting power. One would be to keep the two electoral votes each state gets for its two senators, but give each state two electoral votes for each house member. Smaller states still have some advantage, just not one so outsized as it now is.
    But we don’t do compromise. ‘Murica.

  628. But it doesn’t even do that. (D)’s in WY, and (R)’s in CA get literally no vote at all. They are utterly unheard, their voice and their vote is of no consequence whatsoever.
    That could be solved without even getting rid of the electoral college. Just apportion the electoral votes in each state to each candidate based on their share of the popular vote in each state. States could do that on their own, but why would they, unless everyone else did it? (I guess we could as Maine and Nebraska.)
    There are ways to compromise on the issue of disproportionate voting power. One would be to keep the two electoral votes each state gets for its two senators, but give each state two electoral votes for each house member. Smaller states still have some advantage, just not one so outsized as it now is.
    But we don’t do compromise. ‘Murica.

  629. If I had to make a list of people I’d trust to run things for as close as it’s humanly possible to come to the good of all, russell might well be #1. He would certainly be in the top handful
    Hence my no doubt tiresome campaign slogan of “russell for ROTU”!
    As for Marty’s “preference” for Trump, I think we are in the kind of situation where people (and some of this includes the GOP establishment) double down on indefensible positions, because of a) pride (i.e. determination not to look as if they’ve been either foolish or fickle), b) vulnerability to malign manipulation and c) anger at having been backed into a corner. It’s all so depressingly unconstructive, and unconducive to (not to say obstructive of) any actual improvement of the situation.

  630. If I had to make a list of people I’d trust to run things for as close as it’s humanly possible to come to the good of all, russell might well be #1. He would certainly be in the top handful
    Hence my no doubt tiresome campaign slogan of “russell for ROTU”!
    As for Marty’s “preference” for Trump, I think we are in the kind of situation where people (and some of this includes the GOP establishment) double down on indefensible positions, because of a) pride (i.e. determination not to look as if they’ve been either foolish or fickle), b) vulnerability to malign manipulation and c) anger at having been backed into a corner. It’s all so depressingly unconstructive, and unconducive to (not to say obstructive of) any actual improvement of the situation.

  631. russell, I get the part about not having the skillset to be in a position of power. I don’t have it either, and that’s putting it mildly. But I would still trust you to be fair-minded in terms of the collective good, far more than I would trust a lot of people, and your willingness to self-reflect and acknowledge your own unique set of qualities is part of that.
    Having people in positions of power who are somehow “good at it” has its own pitfalls. Think of The Fifth Sacred Thing.

  632. russell, I get the part about not having the skillset to be in a position of power. I don’t have it either, and that’s putting it mildly. But I would still trust you to be fair-minded in terms of the collective good, far more than I would trust a lot of people, and your willingness to self-reflect and acknowledge your own unique set of qualities is part of that.
    Having people in positions of power who are somehow “good at it” has its own pitfalls. Think of The Fifth Sacred Thing.

  633. Actually holding and exercising power requires skills and personal qualities that I respect, but sadly do not have.
    what about if we created an Oz kind of thing where you could stand behind a curtain and manipulate a giant holographic puppet head as a proxy?

  634. Actually holding and exercising power requires skills and personal qualities that I respect, but sadly do not have.
    what about if we created an Oz kind of thing where you could stand behind a curtain and manipulate a giant holographic puppet head as a proxy?

  635. Option 1: Maintain our current system, which will cost the country $52 trillion over ten years. And under that current system –
    From the current top post at BJ, the opening bit of a summary of Elizabeth Warren’s Medicare for All plan.
    So there’s the $52 trillion number, and the bogey-woman.
    Getting older myself, and having one extended family member with cancer, and another just having turned 96, and another who has what will probably turn out to be lifelong hard-to-diagnose but deeply debilitating disabilities, I spend an increasingly frustrating amount of time dealing with, and supporting other people who are dealing with, the utter insanity of our current health care and health insurance systems. No malevolent deity could have designed anything stupider. The gain in productivity just from having a system that didn’t require so much of people’s time to navigate would probably offset a good chunk of the $52 trillion.
    And let’s be clear, the $52 trillion is a 10-year number, as was the $42 trillioin in the article I linked earlier.

  636. Option 1: Maintain our current system, which will cost the country $52 trillion over ten years. And under that current system –
    From the current top post at BJ, the opening bit of a summary of Elizabeth Warren’s Medicare for All plan.
    So there’s the $52 trillion number, and the bogey-woman.
    Getting older myself, and having one extended family member with cancer, and another just having turned 96, and another who has what will probably turn out to be lifelong hard-to-diagnose but deeply debilitating disabilities, I spend an increasingly frustrating amount of time dealing with, and supporting other people who are dealing with, the utter insanity of our current health care and health insurance systems. No malevolent deity could have designed anything stupider. The gain in productivity just from having a system that didn’t require so much of people’s time to navigate would probably offset a good chunk of the $52 trillion.
    And let’s be clear, the $52 trillion is a 10-year number, as was the $42 trillioin in the article I linked earlier.

  637. Just apportion the electoral votes in each state to each candidate based on their share of the popular vote in each state.
    Seems reasonable to me. At least minority (electoral minority, not talking about skin color) voters in each state would have a reason to bother showing up on election day.
    Small states still get the Senate representation bonus, so should make folks with Marty’s concerns happy.
    Having people in positions of power who are somehow “good at it” has its own pitfalls.
    True dat.
    what about if we created an Oz kind of thing where you could stand behind a curtain and manipulate a giant holographic puppet head as a proxy?
    Hey now!! that sounds fun. But only if we all get to take turns. And, if we get to pick our favorite puppet heads.
    Dibs on Bullwinkle. 🙂

  638. Just apportion the electoral votes in each state to each candidate based on their share of the popular vote in each state.
    Seems reasonable to me. At least minority (electoral minority, not talking about skin color) voters in each state would have a reason to bother showing up on election day.
    Small states still get the Senate representation bonus, so should make folks with Marty’s concerns happy.
    Having people in positions of power who are somehow “good at it” has its own pitfalls.
    True dat.
    what about if we created an Oz kind of thing where you could stand behind a curtain and manipulate a giant holographic puppet head as a proxy?
    Hey now!! that sounds fun. But only if we all get to take turns. And, if we get to pick our favorite puppet heads.
    Dibs on Bullwinkle. 🙂

  641. The real problem russell is that you cant understand how much people like me dont want people like you, or people you like, to be in charge.
    We libertarians don’t think either side should be in charge. And, to make things harder, we don’t think libertarians should be in charge either.
    That on top of the net inflow of federal dollars. Poor little states.
    On the other hand, to a lesser degree now, everyone else “subsidizes” federal income taxpayers in states that have state income taxes. I generally don’t like calling the idea of people being allowed to keep more of their money from taxes a subsidy.

  642. The real problem russell is that you cant understand how much people like me dont want people like you, or people you like, to be in charge.
    We libertarians don’t think either side should be in charge. And, to make things harder, we don’t think libertarians should be in charge either.
    That on top of the net inflow of federal dollars. Poor little states.
    On the other hand, to a lesser degree now, everyone else “subsidizes” federal income taxpayers in states that have state income taxes. I generally don’t like calling the idea of people being allowed to keep more of their money from taxes a subsidy.

  643. On the other hand, to a lesser degree now, everyone else “subsidizes” federal income taxpayers in states that have state income taxes.
    To a far lesser degree. And it’s not just state income taxes. It’s also high property taxes. With the caps placed on how much of those can be deducted, there is a very small number of people who wouldn’t just take the standard deduction.
    But even before that changed, my state, where people pay both high state income taxes and high property taxes, still paid more in federal tax dollars than it got back, unlike other states where state income taxes and property taxes are low.
    Some “subsidy.”

  644. On the other hand, to a lesser degree now, everyone else “subsidizes” federal income taxpayers in states that have state income taxes.
    To a far lesser degree. And it’s not just state income taxes. It’s also high property taxes. With the caps placed on how much of those can be deducted, there is a very small number of people who wouldn’t just take the standard deduction.
    But even before that changed, my state, where people pay both high state income taxes and high property taxes, still paid more in federal tax dollars than it got back, unlike other states where state income taxes and property taxes are low.
    Some “subsidy.”

  645. their money
    is a meaningless shibboleth that carries no moral weight, as far as I’m concerned. All it means is “whatever you’re strong and greedy enough to grab.”
    I can just keep repeating my question about why the Zuckerbergs of the world are gazillionairea when other people are dying of hunger. Heaven forbid we should take a greater proportion of “their” resources away from them, or arrange things in such a way that they can’t amass so much in the first place, and then call it “theirs.”

  646. their money
    is a meaningless shibboleth that carries no moral weight, as far as I’m concerned. All it means is “whatever you’re strong and greedy enough to grab.”
    I can just keep repeating my question about why the Zuckerbergs of the world are gazillionairea when other people are dying of hunger. Heaven forbid we should take a greater proportion of “their” resources away from them, or arrange things in such a way that they can’t amass so much in the first place, and then call it “theirs.”

  647. then we would not have any nice things at all because being able to amass limitless wealth before you turn 35 is literally the only thing people care about.

  648. then we would not have any nice things at all because being able to amass limitless wealth before you turn 35 is literally the only thing people care about.

  649. To be honest, I’d love to live in the world the CharlesWT imagines. I don’t see that he wishes anyone ill, for one thing.
    All of that said, the world is not made of angels. So a world of everyone peaceably going about their business and not bothering anyone else seems, unfortunately, not likely.
    I’ll settle for plan B.

  650. To be honest, I’d love to live in the world the CharlesWT imagines. I don’t see that he wishes anyone ill, for one thing.
    All of that said, the world is not made of angels. So a world of everyone peaceably going about their business and not bothering anyone else seems, unfortunately, not likely.
    I’ll settle for plan B.

  651. Hey, utopia is easy to design if you postulate angels instead of homo sapiens.
    Then again, there was Lucifer…. Or was God the villain in that one? Somehow I managed to get a PhD in English without having read Paradise Lost. I’m pretty sure they’d take away my degree if they knew. 😉

  652. Hey, utopia is easy to design if you postulate angels instead of homo sapiens.
    Then again, there was Lucifer…. Or was God the villain in that one? Somehow I managed to get a PhD in English without having read Paradise Lost. I’m pretty sure they’d take away my degree if they knew. 😉

  653. ” …. we don’t think libertarians should be in charge either.
    Nature abhors a libertarian in a vacuum.
    One day, each of us will be mere algorithms with guns.
    Everyone will be equally in charge, until the only one left standing is.

  654. ” …. we don’t think libertarians should be in charge either.
    Nature abhors a libertarian in a vacuum.
    One day, each of us will be mere algorithms with guns.
    Everyone will be equally in charge, until the only one left standing is.

  657. Not to belabour the embarrassing russell thing, and speaking more generally, it seems to me conceivable (at least in theory) that a prerequisite for being a really good ruler/leader etc is not wanting the job. It’s kind of the corollary of the Groucho formulation: anybody who wants it is disqualified for it. I’ve no idea how you would make this work in practice….

  658. Not to belabour the embarrassing russell thing, and speaking more generally, it seems to me conceivable (at least in theory) that a prerequisite for being a really good ruler/leader etc is not wanting the job. It’s kind of the corollary of the Groucho formulation: anybody who wants it is disqualified for it. I’ve no idea how you would make this work in practice….

  659. Not to belabour the embarrassing russell thing, and speaking more generally, it seems to me conceivable (at least in theory) that a prerequisite for being a really good ruler/leader etc is not wanting the job. It’s kind of the corollary of the Groucho formulation: anybody who wants it is disqualified for it. I’ve no idea how you would make this work in practice….

  660. Not to belabour the embarrassing russell thing, and speaking more generally, it seems to me conceivable (at least in theory) that a prerequisite for being a really good ruler/leader etc is not wanting the job. It’s kind of the corollary of the Groucho formulation: anybody who wants it is disqualified for it. I’ve no idea how you would make this work in practice….

  663. I’m pretty sure they’d take away my degree if they knew. 😉
    Janie, there’s a game that highbrow lit types play where you score by not having read the classics “that everybody’s read”. The most egregious examples score highest. I can’t remember the game’s name, but no doubt someone will come up with it. You’d be in with an excellent chance!

  664. I’m pretty sure they’d take away my degree if they knew. 😉
    Janie, there’s a game that highbrow lit types play where you score by not having read the classics “that everybody’s read”. The most egregious examples score highest. I can’t remember the game’s name, but no doubt someone will come up with it. You’d be in with an excellent chance!

  665. their money….is a meaningless shibboleth that carries no moral weight, as far as I’m concerned.
    Yep.
    changing the rules of the game…
    This may come as a shock to you, Marty, but that is what politics is about-setting the rules.
    I detest the rules you wish to impose, and visa versa, but let’s be clear, each side desires to impose its “rules” on the polity. Otherwise, all this yelling across the ideological chasm would not be necessary.
    Thanks.

  666. their money….is a meaningless shibboleth that carries no moral weight, as far as I’m concerned.
    Yep.
    changing the rules of the game…
    This may come as a shock to you, Marty, but that is what politics is about-setting the rules.
    I detest the rules you wish to impose, and visa versa, but let’s be clear, each side desires to impose its “rules” on the polity. Otherwise, all this yelling across the ideological chasm would not be necessary.
    Thanks.

  669. Back to the issue of rule by minority (and like wj I don’t mean ethnic): A Wyoming resident weighs 67 times as much as a Californian in the Senate.
    One of these years the citizens of California (and even some other states where the discrepancy is bad but not quite that extreme) are going to be fed up.
    The sooner the better.

  670. Back to the issue of rule by minority (and like wj I don’t mean ethnic): A Wyoming resident weighs 67 times as much as a Californian in the Senate.
    One of these years the citizens of California (and even some other states where the discrepancy is bad but not quite that extreme) are going to be fed up.
    The sooner the better.

  671. “a) pride (i.e. determination not to look as if they’ve been either foolish or fickle), b) vulnerability to malign manipulation and c) anger at having been backed into a corner. It’s all so depressingly unconstructive, and unconducive to (not to say obstructive of) any actual improvement of the situation.”
    My position on Trump hasnt changed because what I see hasnt changed. He is a egomaniacal, infantile, blowhard. He loves to stir controversy, part of his being an asshole,but occasionally has some sense of things that would be good to accomplish. Even if he goes about it in the worst possible way. He is not particularly dangerous because our institutions have him pretty blocked in. The GOP leadership seems to see him as I do, something to endure. Impeachment is irrelevant and a completely political action.
    “Vulnerability to malign manipulation” ? Really? How completely arrogant. Talk about unconstructive.

  672. “a) pride (i.e. determination not to look as if they’ve been either foolish or fickle), b) vulnerability to malign manipulation and c) anger at having been backed into a corner. It’s all so depressingly unconstructive, and unconducive to (not to say obstructive of) any actual improvement of the situation.”
    My position on Trump hasnt changed because what I see hasnt changed. He is a egomaniacal, infantile, blowhard. He loves to stir controversy, part of his being an asshole,but occasionally has some sense of things that would be good to accomplish. Even if he goes about it in the worst possible way. He is not particularly dangerous because our institutions have him pretty blocked in. The GOP leadership seems to see him as I do, something to endure. Impeachment is irrelevant and a completely political action.
    “Vulnerability to malign manipulation” ? Really? How completely arrogant. Talk about unconstructive.

  673. Marty, I may be (almost certainly am) arrogant. I wish you no ill, and think well of you personally, but your acceptance of RWNJ talking points, with absolutely no evidence (in fact in defiance of evidence) wherever you get them from, is frightening. You frequently cite “facts” which are demonstrably untrue, and straight from the Trump/alt-right playbook, and given that you say you don’t watch Fox News nor get your info from Facebook it would be very interesting to know where you get them from. But if you are calling me unconstructive, you may well be right. I have no idea how to be constructive in a situation as polarised as this.

  674. Marty, I may be (almost certainly am) arrogant. I wish you no ill, and think well of you personally, but your acceptance of RWNJ talking points, with absolutely no evidence (in fact in defiance of evidence) wherever you get them from, is frightening. You frequently cite “facts” which are demonstrably untrue, and straight from the Trump/alt-right playbook, and given that you say you don’t watch Fox News nor get your info from Facebook it would be very interesting to know where you get them from. But if you are calling me unconstructive, you may well be right. I have no idea how to be constructive in a situation as polarised as this.

  675. He is not particularly dangerous because our institutions have him pretty blocked in.
    odd how Marty was never this sanguine about the cruel tyrannical Obama.
    so odd.

  676. He is not particularly dangerous because our institutions have him pretty blocked in.
    odd how Marty was never this sanguine about the cruel tyrannical Obama.
    so odd.

  677. I have cited no fact that is untrue. I have disagreed with people’s “demonstrable” conclusions and I occasionally make a mistake.
    BTW, I tend to get a variety of inputs from the mainstream news channels, the Post, WSJ, the Times and some things off the MSN breaking news feeds(Reuters AP). Typically looking for the kernels of factual information.

  678. I have cited no fact that is untrue. I have disagreed with people’s “demonstrable” conclusions and I occasionally make a mistake.
    BTW, I tend to get a variety of inputs from the mainstream news channels, the Post, WSJ, the Times and some things off the MSN breaking news feeds(Reuters AP). Typically looking for the kernels of factual information.

  681. I have no idea how to be constructive in a situation as polarised as this.
    And for clarity, I mean the situation on ObWi, as well as in the US.

  682. I have no idea how to be constructive in a situation as polarised as this.
    And for clarity, I mean the situation on ObWi, as well as in the US.

  683. cleek, Obama was sneakier and thus more dangerous.
    This is so far from having any connection to any kind of shared reality that it is time for me to say bye-bye for the moment. I actually do have “constructive” things to do, as I suspect everyone else here does as well, even if they’re not directly related to politics. I am going to go do them and quit contributing to the entertainment value Marty apparently gets from our bites on the hooks he dangles, AKA his trollery. He can stew in his fever dreams without any interference or further commentary from me. The rest of you can feel free to bop me over the head if I fall off the wagon.
    As Adam Silverman often says, We are through the map and off the looking glass.
    Or in other words, WASF.

  684. cleek, Obama was sneakier and thus more dangerous.
    This is so far from having any connection to any kind of shared reality that it is time for me to say bye-bye for the moment. I actually do have “constructive” things to do, as I suspect everyone else here does as well, even if they’re not directly related to politics. I am going to go do them and quit contributing to the entertainment value Marty apparently gets from our bites on the hooks he dangles, AKA his trollery. He can stew in his fever dreams without any interference or further commentary from me. The rest of you can feel free to bop me over the head if I fall off the wagon.
    As Adam Silverman often says, We are through the map and off the looking glass.
    Or in other words, WASF.

  685. cleek, Obama was sneakier and thus more dangerous
    But Marty, what does this even mean? You ignore our Merrick Garland concern, but it is a perfect illustration of how the Republicans and Mitch McConnell were prepared to transgress any norm and deny Obama any right that Presidents always have by virtue of their office. Neil Gorsuch is a supreme because the GOP plotted to circumvent normal processes, so do you think it extraordinary or impermissible for Obama to try to find work-arounds?

  686. cleek, Obama was sneakier and thus more dangerous
    But Marty, what does this even mean? You ignore our Merrick Garland concern, but it is a perfect illustration of how the Republicans and Mitch McConnell were prepared to transgress any norm and deny Obama any right that Presidents always have by virtue of their office. Neil Gorsuch is a supreme because the GOP plotted to circumvent normal processes, so do you think it extraordinary or impermissible for Obama to try to find work-arounds?

  687. And so off I go, stay JanieM, I dont troll, I disagree. I have a brain, a point of view, perfectly defensible. But this has become a closed echo chamber.

  688. And so off I go, stay JanieM, I dont troll, I disagree. I have a brain, a point of view, perfectly defensible. But this has become a closed echo chamber.

  691. Again russell.thats not untrue, it is an opinion. It is demonstrably an attempted takeover outside the defined parameters justifying it. If not coup any other word you prefer. Its goal is an illegal takeover of the government using pretense to claim legitimacy.

  692. Again russell.thats not untrue, it is an opinion. It is demonstrably an attempted takeover outside the defined parameters justifying it. If not coup any other word you prefer. Its goal is an illegal takeover of the government using pretense to claim legitimacy.

  693. Its goal is an illegal takeover of the government using pretense to claim legitimacy.
    What exactly is illegal? And how are they taking over the government, even if Rump is removed from office? What pretense? They didn’t invent the whistleblower complaint or the subsequent corroborating testimony.

  694. Its goal is an illegal takeover of the government using pretense to claim legitimacy.
    What exactly is illegal? And how are they taking over the government, even if Rump is removed from office? What pretense? They didn’t invent the whistleblower complaint or the subsequent corroborating testimony.

  695. If Trump is impeached and found guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors (unlikely in the Senate), Pence will be POTUS. What possible definition of coup, or illegal takeover of the government, could this be? Marty, this is the kind of Trumpian talking point I mean. I don’t say you are trolling, but what on earth can you mean by these words?

  696. If Trump is impeached and found guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors (unlikely in the Senate), Pence will be POTUS. What possible definition of coup, or illegal takeover of the government, could this be? Marty, this is the kind of Trumpian talking point I mean. I don’t say you are trolling, but what on earth can you mean by these words?

  697. So, all of that is nonsense.
    It’s not an attempted “takeover”, if Trump is actually removed from office there will still be a (R) POTUS, the Senate will still be majority (R), virtually nothing in government will change except that Trump is no longer POTUS.
    Nothing will be “taken over”.
    The defined parameters justifying the impeachment inquiry are what appears to be Trump’s attempt to get the Ukrainian government to claim to be investigating Joe Biden’s son. Joe Biden, of course, being one of the more likely (D) candidates for POTUS in 2020. And, Trump’s attempt involved deliberately withholding military aid allocated by Congress as a means of pressuring the Ukrainians. Prior to the current round, we had the Mueller stuff, which was a continuation of criminal and intelligence investigations into Trump that precede his time in office, and which were initially prompted by a member of Trump’s campaign staff getting drunk with an Australian diplomat and bragging about how he was getting the Russians involved on Trump’s behalf. Which actually is something that should attract the notice of the criminal justice and intelligence communities.
    The goal of the impeachment inquiry is to see if there are grounds for bringing articles of impeachment against Trump. Those will undoubtedly be brought, because Trump is basically a crook and has no understanding of how to do anything other than by a crook’s methods, and that has likely put him afoul of the law and involved him in gross abuses of power of office.
    See, those are all facts. Not my opinion. Every thing I’ve said above can be documented from public sources.
    Calling it a coup is a lie. A coup is a seizure of power by illegal or unconstitutional means. Means that are not provided for by the rules and procedures of the government itself.
    Removal from office for cause is not a coup. If Trump is actually removed from office, which is profoundly unlikely in the first place because of the (R) majority Senate, he will have been removed from office by means provided for, lock stock and barrel, by the Constitution itself.
    If you want to know why everybody is piling on you here today, it’s because you are bringing utter risible crap to the table. I don’t say that to insult you, on the contrary. I say it try to get you to get your head out of whatever puke funnel is filling your brain with this nonsense and to address the facts of the situation.
    If you’re just trying to waste all of our time, consider this a win. Declare victory and call it a day.
    If you think you are actually articulating sensible ideas – even as matters of opinion – then I have to say you’re not making a good show of it. Nothing you are saying stands up against the most basic facts of the situation. Nothing.
    The Mueller investigation was not an attempted coup. The current impeachment inquiry is not a coup. None of it is a coup.
    If you want to continue this debate, bring some facts. Your opinions are not grounded in reality, and are not worth anyone’s time here to try refuting. All of this has used up more than enough of my time today.

  698. So, all of that is nonsense.
    It’s not an attempted “takeover”, if Trump is actually removed from office there will still be a (R) POTUS, the Senate will still be majority (R), virtually nothing in government will change except that Trump is no longer POTUS.
    Nothing will be “taken over”.
    The defined parameters justifying the impeachment inquiry are what appears to be Trump’s attempt to get the Ukrainian government to claim to be investigating Joe Biden’s son. Joe Biden, of course, being one of the more likely (D) candidates for POTUS in 2020. And, Trump’s attempt involved deliberately withholding military aid allocated by Congress as a means of pressuring the Ukrainians. Prior to the current round, we had the Mueller stuff, which was a continuation of criminal and intelligence investigations into Trump that precede his time in office, and which were initially prompted by a member of Trump’s campaign staff getting drunk with an Australian diplomat and bragging about how he was getting the Russians involved on Trump’s behalf. Which actually is something that should attract the notice of the criminal justice and intelligence communities.
    The goal of the impeachment inquiry is to see if there are grounds for bringing articles of impeachment against Trump. Those will undoubtedly be brought, because Trump is basically a crook and has no understanding of how to do anything other than by a crook’s methods, and that has likely put him afoul of the law and involved him in gross abuses of power of office.
    See, those are all facts. Not my opinion. Every thing I’ve said above can be documented from public sources.
    Calling it a coup is a lie. A coup is a seizure of power by illegal or unconstitutional means. Means that are not provided for by the rules and procedures of the government itself.
    Removal from office for cause is not a coup. If Trump is actually removed from office, which is profoundly unlikely in the first place because of the (R) majority Senate, he will have been removed from office by means provided for, lock stock and barrel, by the Constitution itself.
    If you want to know why everybody is piling on you here today, it’s because you are bringing utter risible crap to the table. I don’t say that to insult you, on the contrary. I say it try to get you to get your head out of whatever puke funnel is filling your brain with this nonsense and to address the facts of the situation.
    If you’re just trying to waste all of our time, consider this a win. Declare victory and call it a day.
    If you think you are actually articulating sensible ideas – even as matters of opinion – then I have to say you’re not making a good show of it. Nothing you are saying stands up against the most basic facts of the situation. Nothing.
    The Mueller investigation was not an attempted coup. The current impeachment inquiry is not a coup. None of it is a coup.
    If you want to continue this debate, bring some facts. Your opinions are not grounded in reality, and are not worth anyone’s time here to try refuting. All of this has used up more than enough of my time today.

  699. There is nothing fucking Trumpian about it. If you remove the President its intent is to ensure winning the next election, or you would just wait and win the election. It’s a year away, months by the time you can do anything, its using the mechanism of government as a campaign tool. Just because you cant follow a simple line of logic doesnt mean is “Trumpian”. WTF.

  700. There is nothing fucking Trumpian about it. If you remove the President its intent is to ensure winning the next election, or you would just wait and win the election. It’s a year away, months by the time you can do anything, its using the mechanism of government as a campaign tool. Just because you cant follow a simple line of logic doesnt mean is “Trumpian”. WTF.

  701. it is an opinion.
    If you say so. Some are of the opinion that the earth is flat. Props to them also, I guess.

  702. it is an opinion.
    If you say so. Some are of the opinion that the earth is flat. Props to them also, I guess.

  703. get your head out of whatever puke funnel is filling your brain with this nonsense
    I don’t write this to pick on Marty, but this is the best.

  704. get your head out of whatever puke funnel is filling your brain with this nonsense
    I don’t write this to pick on Marty, but this is the best.

  705. If you remove the President its intent is to ensure winning the next election, or you would just wait and win the election. It’s a year away, months by the time you can do anything, its using the mechanism of government as a campaign tool.
    What initiated the impeachment inquiry was a whistleblower complaint, the timing of which House Democrats had no control over. Just like Obama had no control over when Scalia died.
    Either way, you haven’t shown anything illegal or anything resembling a coup.

  706. If you remove the President its intent is to ensure winning the next election, or you would just wait and win the election. It’s a year away, months by the time you can do anything, its using the mechanism of government as a campaign tool.
    What initiated the impeachment inquiry was a whistleblower complaint, the timing of which House Democrats had no control over. Just like Obama had no control over when Scalia died.
    Either way, you haven’t shown anything illegal or anything resembling a coup.

  707. The whistleblower complaint is bullshit, I suspect he intimated a quid pro quo. The naivete that a sitting President wouldnt discuss the investigation of financial crimes by the former VP and his son while he was in office is ludicrous. Even more ludicrous under these circumstances, where it could provide him both actual and political defense.
    It makes no difference whether he is running now, that’s not what is being investigated.

  708. The whistleblower complaint is bullshit, I suspect he intimated a quid pro quo. The naivete that a sitting President wouldnt discuss the investigation of financial crimes by the former VP and his son while he was in office is ludicrous. Even more ludicrous under these circumstances, where it could provide him both actual and political defense.
    It makes no difference whether he is running now, that’s not what is being investigated.

  709. Trump and his henchmen are calling it a coup, that’s why it’s Trumpian. I don’t personally think it’s a campaign ploy: I would think (and it makes at least as much sense) that if you leave Trump as POTUS, it makes a Dem victory in 2020 much more likely. POTUS Pence, objectionable though he may be to people like me, would presumably be much more acceptable to the moderate Rs in the USA, and make a Republican victory more “respectable” and therefore likely. I think this campaign theory is highly questionable, but in any case, it certainly (you are saying coincidentally) follows Trump talking points.

  710. Trump and his henchmen are calling it a coup, that’s why it’s Trumpian. I don’t personally think it’s a campaign ploy: I would think (and it makes at least as much sense) that if you leave Trump as POTUS, it makes a Dem victory in 2020 much more likely. POTUS Pence, objectionable though he may be to people like me, would presumably be much more acceptable to the moderate Rs in the USA, and make a Republican victory more “respectable” and therefore likely. I think this campaign theory is highly questionable, but in any case, it certainly (you are saying coincidentally) follows Trump talking points.

  711. If you remove the President its intent is to ensure winning the next election, or you would just wait and win the election.
    Actually, one of the biggest arguments people raise *against* bringing the impeachment inquiry is that it will fire up Trump’s base and ensure a (R) POTUS in 2020. Whether the candidate is Trump or not.
    It will all, I am more than sure, be used as a campaign tool by all parties involved.
    But, as noted above, all of this began before Trump even took office. And it began, and continues, as a response to Trump’s own actions.

  712. If you remove the President its intent is to ensure winning the next election, or you would just wait and win the election.
    Actually, one of the biggest arguments people raise *against* bringing the impeachment inquiry is that it will fire up Trump’s base and ensure a (R) POTUS in 2020. Whether the candidate is Trump or not.
    It will all, I am more than sure, be used as a campaign tool by all parties involved.
    But, as noted above, all of this began before Trump even took office. And it began, and continues, as a response to Trump’s own actions.

  713. Impeachment and trial in the Senate is a matter of politics, not law. Conviction is a political outcome. Nobody goes to jail as a result.
    If the current mess is a “coup” then the Clinton impeachment was a totally irregular act of unjustified, undignified, irrelevant, and unserious political foppery undertaken for virtually no reason other than the GOP thought it was a great idea at the time.
    Andrew Johnson was impeached because he was dead set against Reconstruction.
    Nixon was impeached because he illegally used the power of his office for blatantly corrupt self-serving ends.
    Trump will be impeached for essentially the same reason. He has abused the trust placed in his hands by the voters.

  714. Impeachment and trial in the Senate is a matter of politics, not law. Conviction is a political outcome. Nobody goes to jail as a result.
    If the current mess is a “coup” then the Clinton impeachment was a totally irregular act of unjustified, undignified, irrelevant, and unserious political foppery undertaken for virtually no reason other than the GOP thought it was a great idea at the time.
    Andrew Johnson was impeached because he was dead set against Reconstruction.
    Nixon was impeached because he illegally used the power of his office for blatantly corrupt self-serving ends.
    Trump will be impeached for essentially the same reason. He has abused the trust placed in his hands by the voters.

  715. The naivete that a sitting President wouldnt discuss the investigation of financial crimes by the former VP and his son while he was in office is ludicrous.
    What crimes? I think it stinks that Hunter Biden got on the Burisma board because of his last name, but there’s nothing illegal about it. He’s an adult and a private citizen. If some company wants to pay him a bunch of money because his last name is Biden, he’s under no legal obligation to turn it down. It’s not ethical in my opinion, but it’s not illegal. Maybe it should be. What crime you think Joe Biden committed, I have no clue.
    Of all the problems with corruption going on in Ukraine, why would Rump be so focused on this one, even if it was what he seems to think it was? Why was something involving his likely rival for the presidency be the most important thing to him?

  716. The naivete that a sitting President wouldnt discuss the investigation of financial crimes by the former VP and his son while he was in office is ludicrous.
    What crimes? I think it stinks that Hunter Biden got on the Burisma board because of his last name, but there’s nothing illegal about it. He’s an adult and a private citizen. If some company wants to pay him a bunch of money because his last name is Biden, he’s under no legal obligation to turn it down. It’s not ethical in my opinion, but it’s not illegal. Maybe it should be. What crime you think Joe Biden committed, I have no clue.
    Of all the problems with corruption going on in Ukraine, why would Rump be so focused on this one, even if it was what he seems to think it was? Why was something involving his likely rival for the presidency be the most important thing to him?

  717. The whistleblower complaint is bullshit, I suspect he intimated a quid pro quo.
    You understand the contradiction here. Don’t you?
    It’s against the fucking law to leverage financial aid that Congress has allocated to coerce a foreign government to take actions for your own personal political benefit.
    If there’s a quid pro quo, or even an “intimated” quid pro quo, the whistleblower complaint is, precisely and exactly, not bullshit.
    Seriously Marty, if you came here to actually try to persuade anybody about anything, this is not your day. You’re kind of playing the disgruntled drunk guy at the end of the bar, ranting about whatever disgruntled drunk guys at the end of the bar rant about now that the commies are gone.
    It’s not a good look, man.
    I’m kind of taking the piss out of you here, but I’m also hoping you take a few minutes and re-evaluate your point of view about all of this. You’re not making any sense, it’s kind of just coming off like a crazy rant.
    Enough from me on this, I hope. Peace out.

  718. The whistleblower complaint is bullshit, I suspect he intimated a quid pro quo.
    You understand the contradiction here. Don’t you?
    It’s against the fucking law to leverage financial aid that Congress has allocated to coerce a foreign government to take actions for your own personal political benefit.
    If there’s a quid pro quo, or even an “intimated” quid pro quo, the whistleblower complaint is, precisely and exactly, not bullshit.
    Seriously Marty, if you came here to actually try to persuade anybody about anything, this is not your day. You’re kind of playing the disgruntled drunk guy at the end of the bar, ranting about whatever disgruntled drunk guys at the end of the bar rant about now that the commies are gone.
    It’s not a good look, man.
    I’m kind of taking the piss out of you here, but I’m also hoping you take a few minutes and re-evaluate your point of view about all of this. You’re not making any sense, it’s kind of just coming off like a crazy rant.
    Enough from me on this, I hope. Peace out.

  719. If you remove the President its intent is to ensure winning the next election, or you would just wait and win the election
    this is patently absurd.
    do you really have no idea why impeachment even exists?

  720. If you remove the President its intent is to ensure winning the next election, or you would just wait and win the election
    this is patently absurd.
    do you really have no idea why impeachment even exists?

  721. The naivete that a sitting President wouldnt discuss the investigation of financial crimes by the former VP and his son while he was in office is ludicrous.
    can anyone here name one other President who investigated the family of a former P or VP?

  722. The naivete that a sitting President wouldnt discuss the investigation of financial crimes by the former VP and his son while he was in office is ludicrous.
    can anyone here name one other President who investigated the family of a former P or VP?

  725. No russell I see no contradiction. We want the Ukraine to aid in the ongoing investigation of illegal activity. Every dollar we give to anyone has some level of quid pro quo, aiding an open investigation is reasonasble.

  726. No russell I see no contradiction. We want the Ukraine to aid in the ongoing investigation of illegal activity. Every dollar we give to anyone has some level of quid pro quo, aiding an open investigation is reasonasble.

  733. Can you name one one who took bribes from Ukrainian oligarchs on behalf of the government?
    LOL. No. I cannot. Can you?

  734. Can you name one one who took bribes from Ukrainian oligarchs on behalf of the government?
    LOL. No. I cannot. Can you?

  737. Every dollar we give to anyone has some level of quid pro quo, aiding an open investigation is reasonasble.
    Then why try to conceal just about everything having to do with it? I would point you to Occam’s razor, but you might hurt yourself.

  738. Every dollar we give to anyone has some level of quid pro quo, aiding an open investigation is reasonasble.
    Then why try to conceal just about everything having to do with it? I would point you to Occam’s razor, but you might hurt yourself.

  739. “Peace out.”
    No.
    Admirable, but the high road has been dynamited and shut down by landslides and forest fires ignited by republican, conservative operatives to destroy the government of the United States of America, with traitorous foreign intervention.
    It’s going to take tsunamis of puke perhaps sluiced thru space funnels designed by Elon Musk, yet another asshole, along with Zuckerberg, who will be dealt with, to destroy the mortal enemies of America – the Republican Party.
    Any rule of law impeachment of that deposes trump, but leaves any trump vermin now in the White House, right down to the sous chef, the guy who warms up the Whoppers for shitheads, in the kitchen, intact, or any republican in either the Senate and the House, or any of the millions of republican operatives in this country still in power and positions of influence, if not fucking alive, to once again scuttle under the floorboards in traitorous opposition, is a waste of my fucking time as a patriotic American.
    Anything less, and I’ll vote for trump in 2020, because America and Americans deserve that apocalypse and the violence that will ensue.

  740. “Peace out.”
    No.
    Admirable, but the high road has been dynamited and shut down by landslides and forest fires ignited by republican, conservative operatives to destroy the government of the United States of America, with traitorous foreign intervention.
    It’s going to take tsunamis of puke perhaps sluiced thru space funnels designed by Elon Musk, yet another asshole, along with Zuckerberg, who will be dealt with, to destroy the mortal enemies of America – the Republican Party.
    Any rule of law impeachment of that deposes trump, but leaves any trump vermin now in the White House, right down to the sous chef, the guy who warms up the Whoppers for shitheads, in the kitchen, intact, or any republican in either the Senate and the House, or any of the millions of republican operatives in this country still in power and positions of influence, if not fucking alive, to once again scuttle under the floorboards in traitorous opposition, is a waste of my fucking time as a patriotic American.
    Anything less, and I’ll vote for trump in 2020, because America and Americans deserve that apocalypse and the violence that will ensue.

  741. All of that said, the world is not made of angels.
    Precisely why libertarians don’t want any single individual or group of people to have much power.

  742. All of that said, the world is not made of angels.
    Precisely why libertarians don’t want any single individual or group of people to have much power.

  743. What’s funny is even within one thread it seems that my complete disdain for Trump gets lost in how much I detest the Democrats antics. I can hold two thoughts, Trump should not be President and he hasnt done anything to warrant impeachment at the same time.
    Every six months for three years Democrats breathlessly waited for a smoking gun that never came.
    If a phone call with the Ukrainisn President is what you’re hanging your hat on it’s pretty weak tea. Just beat the guy at the polls.

  744. What’s funny is even within one thread it seems that my complete disdain for Trump gets lost in how much I detest the Democrats antics. I can hold two thoughts, Trump should not be President and he hasnt done anything to warrant impeachment at the same time.
    Every six months for three years Democrats breathlessly waited for a smoking gun that never came.
    If a phone call with the Ukrainisn President is what you’re hanging your hat on it’s pretty weak tea. Just beat the guy at the polls.

  745. “Precisely why libertarians don’t want any single individual or group of people to have much power.”
    We’ll refer to you as President “much”, when you get your way.

  746. “Precisely why libertarians don’t want any single individual or group of people to have much power.”
    We’ll refer to you as President “much”, when you get your way.

  747. Just apportion the electoral votes in each state to each candidate based on their share of the popular vote in each state.
    Last time, my state had 22 candidates for President on the ballot competing for our nine electoral votes. The Socialist Party, the Communist Party, the Prohibitionist Party, they were all there.
    I have a friend with a Facebook page for the Cocktail Party that he revives every four years. I’ve always told him that if I win the lotto, one of the things I will do is spend the $5,000 it takes to get on the ballot and he and I will run as the Cocktail Party candidates. I’ll bet we can get more votes than the Prohibitionists :^)

  748. Just apportion the electoral votes in each state to each candidate based on their share of the popular vote in each state.
    Last time, my state had 22 candidates for President on the ballot competing for our nine electoral votes. The Socialist Party, the Communist Party, the Prohibitionist Party, they were all there.
    I have a friend with a Facebook page for the Cocktail Party that he revives every four years. I’ve always told him that if I win the lotto, one of the things I will do is spend the $5,000 it takes to get on the ballot and he and I will run as the Cocktail Party candidates. I’ll bet we can get more votes than the Prohibitionists :^)

  749. We want the Ukraine to aid in the ongoing investigation of illegal activity
    People often wonder why I advocate so strongly for a really crisp, bright line between folks holding positions of public responsibility, and family members of those folks leveraging that to advance their private careers and fortunes.
    It’s because of crap like this.
    I’ve actually looked – by which I mean googled, but, you know, pretty thoroughly – around to get a general sense of what was up with the Biden / Ukraine thing. Biden apparently had a large presence in the Ukraine during the Obama administration. And, as far as I can tell, that was pretty much all for the good. Good for us, good for Ukraine. Good.
    And, Hunter got a sweet gig out of it. And, now the everlasting funnel of puke has a turd to drop in the punchbowl of public discourse.
    Nothing illegal about Hunter Biden working for Burisma, as far as I can see. It’s just kind of corrupt, in the sort of ambient level of petty corruption that is endemic to American (and by far not just American) governance.
    I would, hands down, one-hundred-and-ten-percent support eliminating crap like this. If you hold a position of public responsibility, *no member of your immediate family* can benefit in any way shape or form from any industry company practice or whatever that you have engagement with or oversight over.
    Full stop.
    If that doesn’t suit, find another line of work. Or, your family member finds another line of work.
    Biden and his son are not, remotely, within ten million light years of being unusual in this. It’s endemic, and it should all stop.
    Find another line of work. If that doesn’t suit, don’t go into public service.
    Precisely why libertarians don’t want any single individual or group of people to have much power.
    Yeah, me neither.
    Charles, I frequently give you a ration of crap for the libertarian stuff, but I hope you know I actually am sympathetic to your impulse here.
    Sadly, I just don’t see that it’s practical.
    Every six months for three years Democrats breathlessly waited for a smoking gun that never came.
    It’s been a smoking gun parade. A cavalcade of steaming hot iron.
    It just went too far this time.
    Read ’em and weep. Or not, whatever.
    In any case, there is zero fucking chance that Trump will be removed from office. Sorry to disappoint you, but not only no coup, not even a change of officeholder. Probably some (as in, some more) of his crew will go to jail, or get chucked out of office, or one way or another have their lives turned to shit. But that seems to be the price of hanging with Donald J. They knew he was a scorpion.
    But no, the orange man is highly unlikely to be removed from office. The (R)’s in the Senate like their jobs.
    So, we’ll just have to beat his sorry corrupt venal mendacious criminal ass at the polls.
    We will all assume that we will not have your support in that, because judges regulations and tax cuts. Everybody’s got a price.

  750. We want the Ukraine to aid in the ongoing investigation of illegal activity
    People often wonder why I advocate so strongly for a really crisp, bright line between folks holding positions of public responsibility, and family members of those folks leveraging that to advance their private careers and fortunes.
    It’s because of crap like this.
    I’ve actually looked – by which I mean googled, but, you know, pretty thoroughly – around to get a general sense of what was up with the Biden / Ukraine thing. Biden apparently had a large presence in the Ukraine during the Obama administration. And, as far as I can tell, that was pretty much all for the good. Good for us, good for Ukraine. Good.
    And, Hunter got a sweet gig out of it. And, now the everlasting funnel of puke has a turd to drop in the punchbowl of public discourse.
    Nothing illegal about Hunter Biden working for Burisma, as far as I can see. It’s just kind of corrupt, in the sort of ambient level of petty corruption that is endemic to American (and by far not just American) governance.
    I would, hands down, one-hundred-and-ten-percent support eliminating crap like this. If you hold a position of public responsibility, *no member of your immediate family* can benefit in any way shape or form from any industry company practice or whatever that you have engagement with or oversight over.
    Full stop.
    If that doesn’t suit, find another line of work. Or, your family member finds another line of work.
    Biden and his son are not, remotely, within ten million light years of being unusual in this. It’s endemic, and it should all stop.
    Find another line of work. If that doesn’t suit, don’t go into public service.
    Precisely why libertarians don’t want any single individual or group of people to have much power.
    Yeah, me neither.
    Charles, I frequently give you a ration of crap for the libertarian stuff, but I hope you know I actually am sympathetic to your impulse here.
    Sadly, I just don’t see that it’s practical.
    Every six months for three years Democrats breathlessly waited for a smoking gun that never came.
    It’s been a smoking gun parade. A cavalcade of steaming hot iron.
    It just went too far this time.
    Read ’em and weep. Or not, whatever.
    In any case, there is zero fucking chance that Trump will be removed from office. Sorry to disappoint you, but not only no coup, not even a change of officeholder. Probably some (as in, some more) of his crew will go to jail, or get chucked out of office, or one way or another have their lives turned to shit. But that seems to be the price of hanging with Donald J. They knew he was a scorpion.
    But no, the orange man is highly unlikely to be removed from office. The (R)’s in the Senate like their jobs.
    So, we’ll just have to beat his sorry corrupt venal mendacious criminal ass at the polls.
    We will all assume that we will not have your support in that, because judges regulations and tax cuts. Everybody’s got a price.

  751. I have a friend with a Facebook page for the Cocktail Party
    Here in New England, we have Vermin Supreme, the Tyrant you can Trust.
    Everyone, by law, must brush their teeth. And everybody gets a pony.
    Tell me what’s wrong with any of that.

  752. I have a friend with a Facebook page for the Cocktail Party
    Here in New England, we have Vermin Supreme, the Tyrant you can Trust.
    Everyone, by law, must brush their teeth. And everybody gets a pony.
    Tell me what’s wrong with any of that.

  753. I can hold two thoughts, Trump should not be President and he hasnt done anything to warrant impeachment at the same time.
    Here’s the thing. The first of those is an opinion. Some people agree, some disagree. All fine.
    But the second is, at bottom, a matter of facts. Facts which, be it noted, the inquiry will establish. Or not — although it’s looking pretty strong on establish. If the facts are as they appear so far, Trump has definitely and unarguably done MULTIPLE things to warrant both impeachment and removal. Unless, of course, you want to argue that nobody should ever be impeached ever again, no matter how they behave.
    If you doubt that, take a look at the various cases of individuals (not Presidents) who held Federal office and who were impeached and removed from office. Look at what they were accused of. Look at what they were found to have done. Look at the process used to impeach and remove them. This time is nothing exceptional . . . except for being about Trump.

  754. I can hold two thoughts, Trump should not be President and he hasnt done anything to warrant impeachment at the same time.
    Here’s the thing. The first of those is an opinion. Some people agree, some disagree. All fine.
    But the second is, at bottom, a matter of facts. Facts which, be it noted, the inquiry will establish. Or not — although it’s looking pretty strong on establish. If the facts are as they appear so far, Trump has definitely and unarguably done MULTIPLE things to warrant both impeachment and removal. Unless, of course, you want to argue that nobody should ever be impeached ever again, no matter how they behave.
    If you doubt that, take a look at the various cases of individuals (not Presidents) who held Federal office and who were impeached and removed from office. Look at what they were accused of. Look at what they were found to have done. Look at the process used to impeach and remove them. This time is nothing exceptional . . . except for being about Trump.

  755. No wj, the second is a matter of opinion also. The opinion of the House majority and then the opinion of the Senate. You can have one, I can have one. Theirs matters. But it’s still opinion.

  756. No wj, the second is a matter of opinion also. The opinion of the House majority and then the opinion of the Senate. You can have one, I can have one. Theirs matters. But it’s still opinion.

  757. People often wonder why I advocate so strongly for a really crisp, bright line between folks holding positions of public responsibility, and family members of those folks leveraging that to advance their private careers and fortunes.
    I think that what you advocate is desirable, but it assumes that adults who are related to each other control each other’s decisions. Biden, a grown man and former Vice President of the US, has several adult children. One of them apparently did him proud (but he died), the other one not so much. It’s a little bit unrealistic to expect every public servant to quit their job because some adult relative (over whom they have no direct control) engages in conduct that looks bad.
    I have many acquaintances (some of whom are actually close friends) who throw people’s names around in order to impress people, who “network” into job situations because they know people, who never quit telling you about grandpa and his eminent career as a good ole boy, etc. I live in Virginia, and that kind of bs has given a lot of lawyers careers in the legal profession hereabouts.
    By the way, have you heard of Martin Amis, Cokie Roberts, Eugene Scalia, Tyler McGaughey (William Barr’s son-in-law), Ronan Farrow, Gwyneth Paltrow, the Redgrave family, George W. Bush (etc.), Liza Minnelli? Some of these people are/were incredible in their own right, others not so much, but do you think it’s coincidence? And how many times a week do you see/hear a famous last name of some young person who hmmmm, interesting that someone so young has such an incredible job opportunity.
    To suggest that no public official is allowed to have sleazeball adult relatives, or adult relatives who aren’t gaining advantage from their name, or they have to resign is really stretching it. That said, there are enforceable restrictions on nepotism, which are a good thing, but have to be pretty narrow in order to be enforceable (like people working for the same agency of government, and I’m talking to you, Tyler McGaughey.)
    Let’s just stop holding out this Biden thing as being in any way important. Best thing we can do is emphasize that 1) Biden didn’t do anything illegal, 2) nobody is ever going to vote for Hunter Biden for anything.

  758. People often wonder why I advocate so strongly for a really crisp, bright line between folks holding positions of public responsibility, and family members of those folks leveraging that to advance their private careers and fortunes.
    I think that what you advocate is desirable, but it assumes that adults who are related to each other control each other’s decisions. Biden, a grown man and former Vice President of the US, has several adult children. One of them apparently did him proud (but he died), the other one not so much. It’s a little bit unrealistic to expect every public servant to quit their job because some adult relative (over whom they have no direct control) engages in conduct that looks bad.
    I have many acquaintances (some of whom are actually close friends) who throw people’s names around in order to impress people, who “network” into job situations because they know people, who never quit telling you about grandpa and his eminent career as a good ole boy, etc. I live in Virginia, and that kind of bs has given a lot of lawyers careers in the legal profession hereabouts.
    By the way, have you heard of Martin Amis, Cokie Roberts, Eugene Scalia, Tyler McGaughey (William Barr’s son-in-law), Ronan Farrow, Gwyneth Paltrow, the Redgrave family, George W. Bush (etc.), Liza Minnelli? Some of these people are/were incredible in their own right, others not so much, but do you think it’s coincidence? And how many times a week do you see/hear a famous last name of some young person who hmmmm, interesting that someone so young has such an incredible job opportunity.
    To suggest that no public official is allowed to have sleazeball adult relatives, or adult relatives who aren’t gaining advantage from their name, or they have to resign is really stretching it. That said, there are enforceable restrictions on nepotism, which are a good thing, but have to be pretty narrow in order to be enforceable (like people working for the same agency of government, and I’m talking to you, Tyler McGaughey.)
    Let’s just stop holding out this Biden thing as being in any way important. Best thing we can do is emphasize that 1) Biden didn’t do anything illegal, 2) nobody is ever going to vote for Hunter Biden for anything.

  759. By the way, in my diatribe, I didn’t mention the Trump family because they are literally, as a family business, making money off of the Presidency. Not just name dropping. Ivanka and Jared have security clearances (which were obtained over the objections of people who do that for a living) and yet get trademarks for voting machines from China. WTF?
    Anyway, we don’t even mention the Trump family. What they do is too criminal, too unfathomable, too horrible, too huge, too damaging – I mean let’s just ignore it and worry about harmless but creepy things that Joe Biden himself probably had nothing to do with (as he was busy being present for his soon to be lost cancer-ridden son).
    It’s just so ugly to be focussing on this at all.

  760. By the way, in my diatribe, I didn’t mention the Trump family because they are literally, as a family business, making money off of the Presidency. Not just name dropping. Ivanka and Jared have security clearances (which were obtained over the objections of people who do that for a living) and yet get trademarks for voting machines from China. WTF?
    Anyway, we don’t even mention the Trump family. What they do is too criminal, too unfathomable, too horrible, too huge, too damaging – I mean let’s just ignore it and worry about harmless but creepy things that Joe Biden himself probably had nothing to do with (as he was busy being present for his soon to be lost cancer-ridden son).
    It’s just so ugly to be focussing on this at all.

  761. Best thing we can do is emphasize that 1) Biden didn’t do anything illegal, 2) nobody is ever going to vote for Hunter Biden for anything.
    Well I think we should also emphasize that what VP Biden was doing in Ukraine was pushing to replace an AG for refusing to prosecute corruption. Which is part of why Giuliani and his clients are so upset: an honest prosecutor would, and did, prosecute them.
    Trump can relate to that, of course. Anything remotely resembling an honest AG (e.g. Sessions) was and is a threat to him. But now he’s got Barr, so it’s all good.

  762. Best thing we can do is emphasize that 1) Biden didn’t do anything illegal, 2) nobody is ever going to vote for Hunter Biden for anything.
    Well I think we should also emphasize that what VP Biden was doing in Ukraine was pushing to replace an AG for refusing to prosecute corruption. Which is part of why Giuliani and his clients are so upset: an honest prosecutor would, and did, prosecute them.
    Trump can relate to that, of course. Anything remotely resembling an honest AG (e.g. Sessions) was and is a threat to him. But now he’s got Barr, so it’s all good.

  763. And the actual purpose of the EC, so big states couldnt dominate small states, is more important today than ever.
    This is an idiotic argument, utterly idiotic. “States” are pieces of land. No state dominates another. When it comes to national issues, like electing a President, it is ridiculous to think that they should be decided by states.
    They should be decided by people. The only reason “California” is important in those elections is that lots of people live there.
    Using the popular vote doesn’t give the geographical region called “California” some magical power. It gives a California voter the exact same power it gives a Wyoming voter or a Nebraska voter. In other words, it treats voters equally, rather than granting some disproportionate power because of where they happen to live.
    The argument about big states is, I say again, idiotic. The hidded assumption is that a state – a piece of ground with some often arbitrary lines around it – is a sentient being with a will, political preferences, and so on.
    It’s not, so stop acting as if it is.

  764. And the actual purpose of the EC, so big states couldnt dominate small states, is more important today than ever.
    This is an idiotic argument, utterly idiotic. “States” are pieces of land. No state dominates another. When it comes to national issues, like electing a President, it is ridiculous to think that they should be decided by states.
    They should be decided by people. The only reason “California” is important in those elections is that lots of people live there.
    Using the popular vote doesn’t give the geographical region called “California” some magical power. It gives a California voter the exact same power it gives a Wyoming voter or a Nebraska voter. In other words, it treats voters equally, rather than granting some disproportionate power because of where they happen to live.
    The argument about big states is, I say again, idiotic. The hidded assumption is that a state – a piece of ground with some often arbitrary lines around it – is a sentient being with a will, political preferences, and so on.
    It’s not, so stop acting as if it is.

  765. what VP Biden was doing in Ukraine was pushing to replace an AG for refusing to prosecute corruption.
    Yes, actually that, and thanks. I’m less than clear-headed anymore about anything that’s going on – it’s hard to keep straight all of the Trump criminality and the right-wing slime. It’s just so all-consuming and frustrating.
    Biden isn’t my choice as a primary candidate. But talking about his “corruption” or how he should have resigned over this? Really? Please.

  766. what VP Biden was doing in Ukraine was pushing to replace an AG for refusing to prosecute corruption.
    Yes, actually that, and thanks. I’m less than clear-headed anymore about anything that’s going on – it’s hard to keep straight all of the Trump criminality and the right-wing slime. It’s just so all-consuming and frustrating.
    Biden isn’t my choice as a primary candidate. But talking about his “corruption” or how he should have resigned over this? Really? Please.

  767. Marty: No wj, the second is a matter of opinion also.
    What He, Trump and his henchmen did is a question of fact. Whether what they did was too normal and innocent to impeach He, Trump over — that’s the matter of opinion.
    Marty’s opinion is that it isn’t, and Marty is confident that the Archie Bunkers of this world share his opinion. Also the McConnells, Grahams, McCarthys, Nuneses, not to mention the Hannitys and the Ingrahams. So that settles which opinion is Right.
    Plus Obama “killed a Supreme” and launched a sneak attack on democracy by presidenting while Democrat, so Marty will back Orange over Blue any day of the week and twice on Tuesdays, because … well, he wouldn’t be Marty otherwise.
    Marty changing his mind and actually voting for He, Trump’s Democratic opponent so as to actually help “beat Him in the election” would be as temple-veil-rending as Brett Bellmore voting for gun control. Not gonna happen. “Facts” have nothing to do with it.
    –TP

  768. Marty: No wj, the second is a matter of opinion also.
    What He, Trump and his henchmen did is a question of fact. Whether what they did was too normal and innocent to impeach He, Trump over — that’s the matter of opinion.
    Marty’s opinion is that it isn’t, and Marty is confident that the Archie Bunkers of this world share his opinion. Also the McConnells, Grahams, McCarthys, Nuneses, not to mention the Hannitys and the Ingrahams. So that settles which opinion is Right.
    Plus Obama “killed a Supreme” and launched a sneak attack on democracy by presidenting while Democrat, so Marty will back Orange over Blue any day of the week and twice on Tuesdays, because … well, he wouldn’t be Marty otherwise.
    Marty changing his mind and actually voting for He, Trump’s Democratic opponent so as to actually help “beat Him in the election” would be as temple-veil-rending as Brett Bellmore voting for gun control. Not gonna happen. “Facts” have nothing to do with it.
    –TP

  769. Just a note to applaud people pushing back on Marty. I can’t read those propaganda fueled lies anymore, so I engage with people whose ideas I respect.
    Sorry, russell. Someday, if our country ever again becomes a place where we do nuance, maybe we can work out a system where private adult citizens can’t get private jobs by wielding the names of politically powerful parents. I don’t see how to do that, but even if it’s possible it has to wait.

  770. Just a note to applaud people pushing back on Marty. I can’t read those propaganda fueled lies anymore, so I engage with people whose ideas I respect.
    Sorry, russell. Someday, if our country ever again becomes a place where we do nuance, maybe we can work out a system where private adult citizens can’t get private jobs by wielding the names of politically powerful parents. I don’t see how to do that, but even if it’s possible it has to wait.

  771. The argument about big states is, I say again, idiotic. The hidded assumption is that a state – a piece of ground with some often arbitrary lines around it – is a sentient being with a will, political preferences, and so on.
    It’s really not quite that simple. Yes, today what you say makes sense. But when the Constitution was being written, the various colonies had distinctly different cultures. Not just slave vs free either. The differences between say Rhode Island and Pennsylvania were pretty large too. States weren’t just land, they were cultures as well.
    Today that has changed to an enormous degree. People have been moving around for generations, and the differences in culture (yes, even between Alabama and Massachusetts) are a fraction of what they once were. So the argument about one culture dominating another is vastly weaker. But that doesn’t mean that it never did have any merit.

  772. The argument about big states is, I say again, idiotic. The hidded assumption is that a state – a piece of ground with some often arbitrary lines around it – is a sentient being with a will, political preferences, and so on.
    It’s really not quite that simple. Yes, today what you say makes sense. But when the Constitution was being written, the various colonies had distinctly different cultures. Not just slave vs free either. The differences between say Rhode Island and Pennsylvania were pretty large too. States weren’t just land, they were cultures as well.
    Today that has changed to an enormous degree. People have been moving around for generations, and the differences in culture (yes, even between Alabama and Massachusetts) are a fraction of what they once were. So the argument about one culture dominating another is vastly weaker. But that doesn’t mean that it never did have any merit.

  773. Sure byomtov. Rewrite history. States are just arbitrary land masses. They weren’t admitted with contracts and agreements, fuck that those lines mean nothing. Bullshit.

  774. Sure byomtov. Rewrite history. States are just arbitrary land masses. They weren’t admitted with contracts and agreements, fuck that those lines mean nothing. Bullshit.

  775. The State of Resentment is not an arbitrary land mass. Marty has a point there. Was it admitted into the Union “with contracts and agreements”, though? Or did it sneak in like an illegal immigrant ready to do jobs Americans find too onerous and underpaid, such as thinking?
    –TP

  776. The State of Resentment is not an arbitrary land mass. Marty has a point there. Was it admitted into the Union “with contracts and agreements”, though? Or did it sneak in like an illegal immigrant ready to do jobs Americans find too onerous and underpaid, such as thinking?
    –TP

  777. I think that what you advocate is desirable, but it assumes that adults who are related to each other control each other’s decisions
    I’m not convinced that is so, but I also agree that in the present context it’s not the first, second, or probably fiftieth priority.
    I’m sure I’ll rant about it again at some point, but for now I’m happy to leave it as simply “desirable”.
    Thanks sapient.

  778. I think that what you advocate is desirable, but it assumes that adults who are related to each other control each other’s decisions
    I’m not convinced that is so, but I also agree that in the present context it’s not the first, second, or probably fiftieth priority.
    I’m sure I’ll rant about it again at some point, but for now I’m happy to leave it as simply “desirable”.
    Thanks sapient.

  779. But when the Constitution was being written, the various colonies had distinctly different cultures.
    Well, yes and no. The “states” under the Articles of Confederation were, in many respects, Sovereign, and they were loath to cede power to a central government, the idea of which was traditionally embodied in a king….a king they had waged a bitter war against for over a decade.
    But yes, “culture” played a role…mostly with respect to slavery. It was the compromises made over this matter (Senate apportionment, Electoral College, 3/5th rule) that reverberate to this day.
    And Marty might actually read up on the politics of admitting states to the Union in the 2nd half of the 19th century. Contracts and agreements be damned…it was brutal political bloodsport.
    And that reminds me Marty, what do you opine about those in the west (Cliven Bundy, et al) who seek to throw off the “yoke” of the federal government and take control of those vast tracts of federal land? You do know there were “contracts and agreements” as a condition of joining the Union, right? So just who is trying to rewrite the rules here?
    But I guess it is OK if your side rewrites the rules, eh?
    Thank you for clarifying. Now I know where you stand, and frankly, I find nothing admirable about it.
    With all due respect,

  780. But when the Constitution was being written, the various colonies had distinctly different cultures.
    Well, yes and no. The “states” under the Articles of Confederation were, in many respects, Sovereign, and they were loath to cede power to a central government, the idea of which was traditionally embodied in a king….a king they had waged a bitter war against for over a decade.
    But yes, “culture” played a role…mostly with respect to slavery. It was the compromises made over this matter (Senate apportionment, Electoral College, 3/5th rule) that reverberate to this day.
    And Marty might actually read up on the politics of admitting states to the Union in the 2nd half of the 19th century. Contracts and agreements be damned…it was brutal political bloodsport.
    And that reminds me Marty, what do you opine about those in the west (Cliven Bundy, et al) who seek to throw off the “yoke” of the federal government and take control of those vast tracts of federal land? You do know there were “contracts and agreements” as a condition of joining the Union, right? So just who is trying to rewrite the rules here?
    But I guess it is OK if your side rewrites the rules, eh?
    Thank you for clarifying. Now I know where you stand, and frankly, I find nothing admirable about it.
    With all due respect,

  781. Marty,
    I’m not trying to rewrite history. I accept that we are stuck with the EC.
    But I don’t mind pointing out that in today’s environment, as wj says, it’s an idiotic system. If you want to defend it on historical grounds, fine. If you want to argue that it actually really makes sense you’re full of it.
    Oh, and what were those “contracts and agreements” anyway? Did the Dakotas bargain for a preferred position in the EC as a condition of accepting statehood? Did anyone?

  782. Marty,
    I’m not trying to rewrite history. I accept that we are stuck with the EC.
    But I don’t mind pointing out that in today’s environment, as wj says, it’s an idiotic system. If you want to defend it on historical grounds, fine. If you want to argue that it actually really makes sense you’re full of it.
    Oh, and what were those “contracts and agreements” anyway? Did the Dakotas bargain for a preferred position in the EC as a condition of accepting statehood? Did anyone?

  783. The opinion of the House majority and then the opinion of the Senate.
    lordy.
    the opinion of the GOP Senate is “Polls are clear: the GOP Base is rock-solid behind Trump so there’s absolutely no fucking way I’m going to stick my neck out over something as stupid as principles and lose my job and subject me and my family to a lifetime of death threats from these stupid motherfuckers.”
    what GOP Senators actually think of the validity of the charges will be utterly irrelevant because the incentives for them to vote their consciences pale in comparison to the incentives for kissing Trump’s ass.
    the whole enterprise has been corrupted by Trump.
    yourself included

  784. The opinion of the House majority and then the opinion of the Senate.
    lordy.
    the opinion of the GOP Senate is “Polls are clear: the GOP Base is rock-solid behind Trump so there’s absolutely no fucking way I’m going to stick my neck out over something as stupid as principles and lose my job and subject me and my family to a lifetime of death threats from these stupid motherfuckers.”
    what GOP Senators actually think of the validity of the charges will be utterly irrelevant because the incentives for them to vote their consciences pale in comparison to the incentives for kissing Trump’s ass.
    the whole enterprise has been corrupted by Trump.
    yourself included

  785. As, perhaps, a point of interest, 4 of the 10 smallest states by population are in New England. MA is the only NE state that’s even in the top half.
    Even by population density, the northern NE states rank fairly low. ME ranks with OR and TX.
    The really important distinction in terms of conflicting interests is the division between cities, suburbs, and everybody else. The relationship of that to state lines is actually kind of incidental.

  786. As, perhaps, a point of interest, 4 of the 10 smallest states by population are in New England. MA is the only NE state that’s even in the top half.
    Even by population density, the northern NE states rank fairly low. ME ranks with OR and TX.
    The really important distinction in terms of conflicting interests is the division between cities, suburbs, and everybody else. The relationship of that to state lines is actually kind of incidental.

  787. Biden isn’t my choice as a primary candidate. But talking about his “corruption” or how he should have resigned over this? Really? Please.
    if anyone has any doubts about what Trump’s entire goal was with this “have Ukraine raise questions about Trump” scheme… look at Marty.
    hook. line. sinker.
    it’s a bunch of nothing designed to give the base something to rant and rave about. and it worked!
    yeah, Trump would have preferred the whole thing to happen without his own name being dragged around too. but, because he’s a blithering idiot, he had to make his own deal – couldn’t just leave it to Rudy G and the rest of his scumbag posse.
    still, it’s working. because, exactly as he’s known for years: he’s got y’all’s number. he knows he could kill a man on 5th ave and you’d be digging through that man’s dirt to find out why he had it coming.
    he’s a conman. and you’re being played. again.

  788. Biden isn’t my choice as a primary candidate. But talking about his “corruption” or how he should have resigned over this? Really? Please.
    if anyone has any doubts about what Trump’s entire goal was with this “have Ukraine raise questions about Trump” scheme… look at Marty.
    hook. line. sinker.
    it’s a bunch of nothing designed to give the base something to rant and rave about. and it worked!
    yeah, Trump would have preferred the whole thing to happen without his own name being dragged around too. but, because he’s a blithering idiot, he had to make his own deal – couldn’t just leave it to Rudy G and the rest of his scumbag posse.
    still, it’s working. because, exactly as he’s known for years: he’s got y’all’s number. he knows he could kill a man on 5th ave and you’d be digging through that man’s dirt to find out why he had it coming.
    he’s a conman. and you’re being played. again.

  791. God cleek, do you think any of those House Dems think about it any other way? The base demanded an impeachment, so they are having one. There isnt a shred of principle on either side.

  792. God cleek, do you think any of those House Dems think about it any other way? The base demanded an impeachment, so they are having one. There isnt a shred of principle on either side.

  793. As has been mentioned above already, there are quite a lot of people that consider impeachment of Trump unwise electorally for the Dems (and I do not mean RW pundits or concern trolling GOPsters). A lot of Dems voted for the impeachment (inquiry) despite of that and there were just 2 who did not because they came from red districts. On the other hand there were a handful that opposed the vote (being taken) because they thought it gave the appearance of validating the bogus GOP claim that the process up til then was somehow problematic (illegal, coup, akin to a lynching etc.). Unlike the GOPsters few Dem congresspersons had to fear for their political life.
    Where Marty is right is that impeachment is, contrary to the original idea, primarily a question of politics these days. If the original idea had prevailed, few (if any) presidents would not have been impeached (mainly for violating US laws in their foreign policy. But we know that there is a consent that that does not count).

  794. As has been mentioned above already, there are quite a lot of people that consider impeachment of Trump unwise electorally for the Dems (and I do not mean RW pundits or concern trolling GOPsters). A lot of Dems voted for the impeachment (inquiry) despite of that and there were just 2 who did not because they came from red districts. On the other hand there were a handful that opposed the vote (being taken) because they thought it gave the appearance of validating the bogus GOP claim that the process up til then was somehow problematic (illegal, coup, akin to a lynching etc.). Unlike the GOPsters few Dem congresspersons had to fear for their political life.
    Where Marty is right is that impeachment is, contrary to the original idea, primarily a question of politics these days. If the original idea had prevailed, few (if any) presidents would not have been impeached (mainly for violating US laws in their foreign policy. But we know that there is a consent that that does not count).

  795. The problem with Clinton’s impeachment was not that it took place but that it was about a lie about a BJ and not about e.g. extraordinary rendition. And we know the consequences. It emboldened others to the point that now torture has been defined away legally and there is no ‘need’ to outsource it anymore.
    Btw, even the fact that the Clinton impeachment backfired had a detrimental effect (now exploited by the very same guys into whose faces it blew up). Being purely party politics it tainted the process itself, so now a real crook can hide behind it.
    Ceterum censeo presidential pardon powers and ‘executive privilege’ are in need of a major overhaul.
    Plus, an automatic trigger for inquiries into abuse of the same should be installed, so congress should be forced to get on the record for decisions NOT to do their duty.

  796. The problem with Clinton’s impeachment was not that it took place but that it was about a lie about a BJ and not about e.g. extraordinary rendition. And we know the consequences. It emboldened others to the point that now torture has been defined away legally and there is no ‘need’ to outsource it anymore.
    Btw, even the fact that the Clinton impeachment backfired had a detrimental effect (now exploited by the very same guys into whose faces it blew up). Being purely party politics it tainted the process itself, so now a real crook can hide behind it.
    Ceterum censeo presidential pardon powers and ‘executive privilege’ are in need of a major overhaul.
    Plus, an automatic trigger for inquiries into abuse of the same should be installed, so congress should be forced to get on the record for decisions NOT to do their duty.

  797. Don’t disagree wuth your comments in general here, Hartmut. But impeachment as a political remedy was, it seems to me, at least part of the original intent.
    This seems like a good analysis.

  798. Don’t disagree wuth your comments in general here, Hartmut. But impeachment as a political remedy was, it seems to me, at least part of the original intent.
    This seems like a good analysis.

  799. he’s a conman. and you’re being played. again.
    Let’s give credit where credit is due. He’s really very, very good at it. Due, in part, to a lifetime of practice. As far as can be told, the only skill he has . . . unless you want to call bullying a skill.
    Still, it’s not like they’re getting scammed (repeatedly) by some damned amateur.

  800. he’s a conman. and you’re being played. again.
    Let’s give credit where credit is due. He’s really very, very good at it. Due, in part, to a lifetime of practice. As far as can be told, the only skill he has . . . unless you want to call bullying a skill.
    Still, it’s not like they’re getting scammed (repeatedly) by some damned amateur.

  801. Hartmut: Plus, an automatic trigger for inquiries into abuse of the same should be installed, so congress should be forced to get on the record for decisions NOT to do their duty.
    I know very little of Roman history, but I believe there was an office called “Tribune of the People” during the Republic. It lasted, in name at least, well into Imperial times. The Tribunes had the power to veto(?) unjust edicts and their persons were inviolate, in principle. I have often wondered whether we in the US should revive that position.
    –TP

  802. Hartmut: Plus, an automatic trigger for inquiries into abuse of the same should be installed, so congress should be forced to get on the record for decisions NOT to do their duty.
    I know very little of Roman history, but I believe there was an office called “Tribune of the People” during the Republic. It lasted, in name at least, well into Imperial times. The Tribunes had the power to veto(?) unjust edicts and their persons were inviolate, in principle. I have often wondered whether we in the US should revive that position.
    –TP

  803. Marty, I am afraid that cleek is right about hook line and sinker. The accusations about Biden corruption have been seriously (and serially) looked into, and completely debunked, and the facts are as wj has said. This Biden-Ukraine-Corruption theory is an obsession of Giuliani’s possibly for his own corrupt reasons (this is still to be ascertained) which he has roped Trump into with the lure of dirt on his main opponent. I hold no brief for Biden, and don’t much want to see him as the Dem candidate, but the whole whistleblower-“transcript”-impeachment situation has arisen because Trump, a man you despise, has once again tried to solicit foreign aid to subvert your democratic process. You are succumbing to the blowing of smoke and the flashing of mirrors in order to persuade you, and other decent conservatives, that Trump is being victimised by the Dems and the left. You have and are entitled to your own economic and political views, but you can choose (as many other respectable conservatives have) to resist a despicable conman fooling you into becoming one of his marks.

  804. Marty, I am afraid that cleek is right about hook line and sinker. The accusations about Biden corruption have been seriously (and serially) looked into, and completely debunked, and the facts are as wj has said. This Biden-Ukraine-Corruption theory is an obsession of Giuliani’s possibly for his own corrupt reasons (this is still to be ascertained) which he has roped Trump into with the lure of dirt on his main opponent. I hold no brief for Biden, and don’t much want to see him as the Dem candidate, but the whole whistleblower-“transcript”-impeachment situation has arisen because Trump, a man you despise, has once again tried to solicit foreign aid to subvert your democratic process. You are succumbing to the blowing of smoke and the flashing of mirrors in order to persuade you, and other decent conservatives, that Trump is being victimised by the Dems and the left. You have and are entitled to your own economic and political views, but you can choose (as many other respectable conservatives have) to resist a despicable conman fooling you into becoming one of his marks.

  805. Again, and for the last time, if you think Trump is fooling me you’re wrong. You just cant imagine in your cone of confirmation bias that you could be wrong about any of this. So I must be a rube. I assure you I have a firm grasp on who he is.
    He has been, for good and stupid reasons, harassed since the day the left lost its mind because he unimaginably won. I agree with much that is said about him, I dont think any of it comes close to impeachable. I think the blatant attempt to find ANY justification to impeach him is more dangerous to our democracy than anything hes done. It is a precedent that could end our country.
    I think that is an intelligent position based on my view of the facts as presented. If it’s wrong, I’m wrong, I am not fooled by some imbecile texting from the Oval office.

  806. Again, and for the last time, if you think Trump is fooling me you’re wrong. You just cant imagine in your cone of confirmation bias that you could be wrong about any of this. So I must be a rube. I assure you I have a firm grasp on who he is.
    He has been, for good and stupid reasons, harassed since the day the left lost its mind because he unimaginably won. I agree with much that is said about him, I dont think any of it comes close to impeachable. I think the blatant attempt to find ANY justification to impeach him is more dangerous to our democracy than anything hes done. It is a precedent that could end our country.
    I think that is an intelligent position based on my view of the facts as presented. If it’s wrong, I’m wrong, I am not fooled by some imbecile texting from the Oval office.

  807. Via the IndependentUK, via Balloon Juice, a voice from the past explains it all for us.
    Occam’s Razor FTW, once again.
    Not trying to stick to anyone (Marty, or whoever), just SMH and laughing, just a little. If the stakes weren’t so high, the whole Trump extravaganza would be comedy gold. Keystone Kops material.

  808. Via the IndependentUK, via Balloon Juice, a voice from the past explains it all for us.
    Occam’s Razor FTW, once again.
    Not trying to stick to anyone (Marty, or whoever), just SMH and laughing, just a little. If the stakes weren’t so high, the whole Trump extravaganza would be comedy gold. Keystone Kops material.

  809. God cleek, do you think any of those House Dems think about it any other way?
    yes. obviously they do.
    if getting him out of office was the goal they wouldn’t be going down a path that is highly unlikely to get that done.

  810. God cleek, do you think any of those House Dems think about it any other way?
    yes. obviously they do.
    if getting him out of office was the goal they wouldn’t be going down a path that is highly unlikely to get that done.

  811. He has been, for good and stupid reasons, harassed since the day … he … won
    Comes with the gig. Name one POTUS who hasn’t held office with a pack of hounds snapping at his heels, for good or stupid reasons.
    It is a precedent that could end our country.
    It’s not like we haven’t been through this before. Third time in my lifetime, FWIW.
    I dont think any of it comes close to impeachable.
    Not your call to make.
    There’s nothing new about the POTUS’ political opponents going through everything he says, does, eats, reads, writes, wears, throws out in the trash, what have you – everything – to find some attack surface sufficient to damage him or, ideally, chuck him the hell out.
    Trump is unique in the extraordinary number and variety of those that are on offer.
    He is a life-long crook. Being POTUS means you live under a microscope. This crap was written in the cards from day one, and before day one.
    The man is corrupt. That is the fundamental issue here. Not what the (D)’s are doing, not what anybody other than Trump is doing.
    He is the author of this mess, nobody else.
    Flail away if you wish, but you will never get around that simple, basic fact. You cannot make it go away by pointing the finger everyplace other than there.

  812. He has been, for good and stupid reasons, harassed since the day … he … won
    Comes with the gig. Name one POTUS who hasn’t held office with a pack of hounds snapping at his heels, for good or stupid reasons.
    It is a precedent that could end our country.
    It’s not like we haven’t been through this before. Third time in my lifetime, FWIW.
    I dont think any of it comes close to impeachable.
    Not your call to make.
    There’s nothing new about the POTUS’ political opponents going through everything he says, does, eats, reads, writes, wears, throws out in the trash, what have you – everything – to find some attack surface sufficient to damage him or, ideally, chuck him the hell out.
    Trump is unique in the extraordinary number and variety of those that are on offer.
    He is a life-long crook. Being POTUS means you live under a microscope. This crap was written in the cards from day one, and before day one.
    The man is corrupt. That is the fundamental issue here. Not what the (D)’s are doing, not what anybody other than Trump is doing.
    He is the author of this mess, nobody else.
    Flail away if you wish, but you will never get around that simple, basic fact. You cannot make it go away by pointing the finger everyplace other than there.

  813. Well Marty, as so often in the past, we’ll have to agree to disagree. If you think that an impeachment attempt (which Pelosi resisted for months) on the basis of soliciting foreign aid to subvert your elections, is more dangerous than for example an impeachment attempt because a sexually sleazy President lied about blowjobs, then so be it. And McConnell’s success in preventing a sitting President from fulfilling his rightful duties (and prior threats to do the same should a Dem win the election) seem to me to be a pretty obvious campaign to hamstring a President’s freedom of movement comparable or worse than you claim Trump to have suffered since 2017. Where we can agree is that there is a serious danger to your democracy, but alas not on the cause. To quote russell: peace out.

  814. Well Marty, as so often in the past, we’ll have to agree to disagree. If you think that an impeachment attempt (which Pelosi resisted for months) on the basis of soliciting foreign aid to subvert your elections, is more dangerous than for example an impeachment attempt because a sexually sleazy President lied about blowjobs, then so be it. And McConnell’s success in preventing a sitting President from fulfilling his rightful duties (and prior threats to do the same should a Dem win the election) seem to me to be a pretty obvious campaign to hamstring a President’s freedom of movement comparable or worse than you claim Trump to have suffered since 2017. Where we can agree is that there is a serious danger to your democracy, but alas not on the cause. To quote russell: peace out.

  815. If the WaPo is right, the Biden stuff is the SECOND quid-pro-quo Jabba-bonk had with Ukraine. The first was to withhold Javelin missiles (and a WH visit) from Zelensky’s predecessor until he quashed Ukrainian criminal investigations into Manafort (Jabba-bonk’s campaign manager), the so-called black-ledger-affair, and cut any support for parallel investigations in the US. Poroshenko got his missiles and his visit within days after he did as asked (by Ghouliani btw).

  816. If the WaPo is right, the Biden stuff is the SECOND quid-pro-quo Jabba-bonk had with Ukraine. The first was to withhold Javelin missiles (and a WH visit) from Zelensky’s predecessor until he quashed Ukrainian criminal investigations into Manafort (Jabba-bonk’s campaign manager), the so-called black-ledger-affair, and cut any support for parallel investigations in the US. Poroshenko got his missiles and his visit within days after he did as asked (by Ghouliani btw).

  817. Since it’s my opinion it is my call. Since when did I not have that right? And we have had more than our share of suspect characters in the White House, they just happened to be politicians.
    And no, most Presidents dont have the opposition party trying to indict or impeach them from before they are sworn in. It’s not “part of the gig”.
    Flail away if you wish, but the simple fact is that the Dems couldnt emotionally deal with the loss and have spent three years abusing their powers as therapy. He does just keep feeding them the next thing to grasp at, but they just keep hoping this will be the one.
    And we have never been through, this.

  818. Since it’s my opinion it is my call. Since when did I not have that right? And we have had more than our share of suspect characters in the White House, they just happened to be politicians.
    And no, most Presidents dont have the opposition party trying to indict or impeach them from before they are sworn in. It’s not “part of the gig”.
    Flail away if you wish, but the simple fact is that the Dems couldnt emotionally deal with the loss and have spent three years abusing their powers as therapy. He does just keep feeding them the next thing to grasp at, but they just keep hoping this will be the one.
    And we have never been through, this.

  819. Again, and for the last time, if you think Trump is fooling me you’re wrong. You just cant imagine in your cone of confirmation bias that you could be wrong about any of this
    i can imagine it. but, in this case, i’m not wrong.
    all the facts as simple and clear. they are corroborated by more witnesses than a prosecutor could hope for. even the Senate GOP can see them – though they’re trying to plead the situation away, rather than have to take that vote.
    the Biden stuff is a distraction. the “Trump has always been deeply concerned about corruption in Ukraine” retcon is a distraction. the “process” stuff is a distraction. the “coup” nonsense is a distraction. the “overturn the election” stuff is a distraction. no doubt there will be more distractions as the situation evolves.
    GOP 2020: HEY! LOOK OVER THERE!

  820. Again, and for the last time, if you think Trump is fooling me you’re wrong. You just cant imagine in your cone of confirmation bias that you could be wrong about any of this
    i can imagine it. but, in this case, i’m not wrong.
    all the facts as simple and clear. they are corroborated by more witnesses than a prosecutor could hope for. even the Senate GOP can see them – though they’re trying to plead the situation away, rather than have to take that vote.
    the Biden stuff is a distraction. the “Trump has always been deeply concerned about corruption in Ukraine” retcon is a distraction. the “process” stuff is a distraction. the “coup” nonsense is a distraction. the “overturn the election” stuff is a distraction. no doubt there will be more distractions as the situation evolves.
    GOP 2020: HEY! LOOK OVER THERE!

  821. Since it’s my opinion it is my call. Since when did I not have that right?
    It is your right.
    The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on. Nor all thy piety nor wit shall call it back to cancel half a line, nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.

  822. Since it’s my opinion it is my call. Since when did I not have that right?
    It is your right.
    The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on. Nor all thy piety nor wit shall call it back to cancel half a line, nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.

  823. The Roman office of tribune of the plebs got completely corrupted by the time of the late republic.
    Sulla took all power from them. When it got restored, it became popular to subdue them by force or even kill them (inviolate status be damned). In the final phase it became standard to simply have toadies elected to the office or to bribe some on occasion. Since each tribune* could also veto any other, deadlock could be guaranteed.
    The emperors then took the office themselves. Officially there was no monarchy and the princeps did not formally rule but people bowed to his inherent personal authority (auctoritas, pertaining to him as person not office holder) and his privileges as tribune (tribunicia potestas, pertaining to the office, not him as a person).
    If there was such an office in the US, it would by now be completely and utterly Moscow-Mitched (Devin Nunes and Lindsay Graham would be prime candidates to hold it or alternatively Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh).
    *the numbers varied, iirc between six and ten depending on the period we have actual records for

  824. The Roman office of tribune of the plebs got completely corrupted by the time of the late republic.
    Sulla took all power from them. When it got restored, it became popular to subdue them by force or even kill them (inviolate status be damned). In the final phase it became standard to simply have toadies elected to the office or to bribe some on occasion. Since each tribune* could also veto any other, deadlock could be guaranteed.
    The emperors then took the office themselves. Officially there was no monarchy and the princeps did not formally rule but people bowed to his inherent personal authority (auctoritas, pertaining to him as person not office holder) and his privileges as tribune (tribunicia potestas, pertaining to the office, not him as a person).
    If there was such an office in the US, it would by now be completely and utterly Moscow-Mitched (Devin Nunes and Lindsay Graham would be prime candidates to hold it or alternatively Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh).
    *the numbers varied, iirc between six and ten depending on the period we have actual records for

  825. “Donald Trump is not simply a serial liar; he is attempting to murder the very idea of truth, which is even worse,” said Peter Wehner, a former strategic adviser to President George W. Bush and an outspoken critic of Mr. Trump. “Because without truth, a free society cannot operate.”
    From today’s NYT. Too fucking late to realise this, you motherfuckers. You should have told this to Rove et al at the time.

  826. “Donald Trump is not simply a serial liar; he is attempting to murder the very idea of truth, which is even worse,” said Peter Wehner, a former strategic adviser to President George W. Bush and an outspoken critic of Mr. Trump. “Because without truth, a free society cannot operate.”
    From today’s NYT. Too fucking late to realise this, you motherfuckers. You should have told this to Rove et al at the time.

  829. Iirc there were calls to impeach Hillary Clinton even before the 2016 election or to start impeachment proceedings on inauguration day at the latest (reason yet to be determined; emails, Benghazi, Whitewater, Vince Foster, Monica Lewinsky, uranium deals, paid speeches, whatever).
    Also there were definitive (definite?) statements from high-ranking GOP congresscritters that she would not be allowed to fill in a single vacancy on any court (or maybe even agency position requiring senate approval) if need be for full eight years.

  830. Iirc there were calls to impeach Hillary Clinton even before the 2016 election or to start impeachment proceedings on inauguration day at the latest (reason yet to be determined; emails, Benghazi, Whitewater, Vince Foster, Monica Lewinsky, uranium deals, paid speeches, whatever).
    Also there were definitive (definite?) statements from high-ranking GOP congresscritters that she would not be allowed to fill in a single vacancy on any court (or maybe even agency position requiring senate approval) if need be for full eight years.

  831. Also there were definitive (definite?) statements from high-ranking GOP congresscritters that she would not be allowed to fill in a single vacancy on any court (or maybe even agency position requiring senate approval) if need be for full eight years.
    McConnell, I’m pretty sure, and that’s what I was referring to above.

  832. Also there were definitive (definite?) statements from high-ranking GOP congresscritters that she would not be allowed to fill in a single vacancy on any court (or maybe even agency position requiring senate approval) if need be for full eight years.
    McConnell, I’m pretty sure, and that’s what I was referring to above.

  833. GftNC, just use poetic synonyms, e.g. ‘ye begetters of yer own siblings’ or ‘possessors of maternal carnal knowledge’ or ‘ye uncoverers of yer progenetrix’ bareness’. Or just use ‘matrifutuents’, if the above are too long.

  834. GftNC, just use poetic synonyms, e.g. ‘ye begetters of yer own siblings’ or ‘possessors of maternal carnal knowledge’ or ‘ye uncoverers of yer progenetrix’ bareness’. Or just use ‘matrifutuents’, if the above are too long.

  835. Marty: So I must be a rube.
    People keep trying to believe so, because any alternative characterization would be even more damning.
    –TP

  836. Marty: So I must be a rube.
    People keep trying to believe so, because any alternative characterization would be even more damning.
    –TP

  837. Alas, Hartmut, I actually like swearing and find the get-arounds mealy-mouthed and annoying. It reminds me that once, when I was at boarding school, a staff member passing me on the stairs heard me talking to a friend and using the word “bloody” for emphasis. She remonstrated with me, saying “I always thought you were a lady!”, to which I could only reply, with complete honesty, “in my experience, ladies swear with absolutely joyous abandon”.

  838. Alas, Hartmut, I actually like swearing and find the get-arounds mealy-mouthed and annoying. It reminds me that once, when I was at boarding school, a staff member passing me on the stairs heard me talking to a friend and using the word “bloody” for emphasis. She remonstrated with me, saying “I always thought you were a lady!”, to which I could only reply, with complete honesty, “in my experience, ladies swear with absolutely joyous abandon”.

  841. TP, Marty’s a rube is code for “I dont want to consider there is an intelligent argument I could be wrong”.
    For example, Biden has been cleared. By who? Who investigated him?

  842. TP, Marty’s a rube is code for “I dont want to consider there is an intelligent argument I could be wrong”.
    For example, Biden has been cleared. By who? Who investigated him?

  845. Since it’s my opinion it is my call.
    Fair enough. Flail away.
    most Presidents dont have the opposition party trying to indict or impeach them from before they are sworn in.
    Most presidents, which is to say probably no other president ever, has members of their campaign staff getting drunk with foreign diplomats and telling them about how they’re engaging foreign nationals in the campaign effort.
    And FWIW, the initial criminal referral for the Whitewater investigation was made on September 2, 1992. Two months before the 2012 election, let alone before Clinton was even elected or took office.
    Let me spell it out for you: a criminal referral was made, to the FBI, by an investigator employed by the Resolution Trust Corporation, a federally owned asset management corporation tasked with unrolling the S&L shitstorm, against Bill Clinton, two months before the 1992 election and four months before he took office.
    You may have noticed that the (R)’s of the time seized upon this both as a campaign issue, and a possible avenue for impeaching the POTUS. Like, from day one.
    Facts are stubborn things.
    the Dems couldnt emotionally deal with the loss and have spent three years abusing their powers as therapy.
    Marty, ObWi’s staff psychiatrist.
    Maybe give this a rest, man.
    He’s going to be impeached. Unless there are some truly dramatic reversals between now and whenever it goes to the Senate, he will not be removed from office. All of this mess will undoubtedly inspire and inflame the generally feverish sense of victimization and resentment that is common among his supporters, among whom I really have to include you, whether you voted for, or will vote for, him or not. And so all of this may result in another four years of Trump.
    Whatever.
    It would be a gross neglect of the responsibilities of office for the relevant House committees to ignore the criminal actions and profound abuse of office presented by this president.
    ITMFA, and it’ll land where it lands. That’s what should happen, and is what is going to happen.

  846. Since it’s my opinion it is my call.
    Fair enough. Flail away.
    most Presidents dont have the opposition party trying to indict or impeach them from before they are sworn in.
    Most presidents, which is to say probably no other president ever, has members of their campaign staff getting drunk with foreign diplomats and telling them about how they’re engaging foreign nationals in the campaign effort.
    And FWIW, the initial criminal referral for the Whitewater investigation was made on September 2, 1992. Two months before the 2012 election, let alone before Clinton was even elected or took office.
    Let me spell it out for you: a criminal referral was made, to the FBI, by an investigator employed by the Resolution Trust Corporation, a federally owned asset management corporation tasked with unrolling the S&L shitstorm, against Bill Clinton, two months before the 1992 election and four months before he took office.
    You may have noticed that the (R)’s of the time seized upon this both as a campaign issue, and a possible avenue for impeaching the POTUS. Like, from day one.
    Facts are stubborn things.
    the Dems couldnt emotionally deal with the loss and have spent three years abusing their powers as therapy.
    Marty, ObWi’s staff psychiatrist.
    Maybe give this a rest, man.
    He’s going to be impeached. Unless there are some truly dramatic reversals between now and whenever it goes to the Senate, he will not be removed from office. All of this mess will undoubtedly inspire and inflame the generally feverish sense of victimization and resentment that is common among his supporters, among whom I really have to include you, whether you voted for, or will vote for, him or not. And so all of this may result in another four years of Trump.
    Whatever.
    It would be a gross neglect of the responsibilities of office for the relevant House committees to ignore the criminal actions and profound abuse of office presented by this president.
    ITMFA, and it’ll land where it lands. That’s what should happen, and is what is going to happen.

  847. why would the President of the US be personally interested in the employment history of one specific person, given all the other things going on in the world? and why would Joe Biden Jr’s employment history be tied to military aid for Ukraine?
    and what does the location of the “missing DNC sever” have to do with the national interests of the US or of Ukraine? why did Trump ask for information about that, specifically, and why was it tied to military aid to Ukraine?
    are those two things (the only things Trump conditioned the aid upon, so far as we know) the most pressing examples of corruption in all of Ukraine?
    and is is just a coincidence that one goes to Trump’s effort to try to undo the Mueller findings and the other goes straight at Trump’s most likely rival in 2020 ?
    and why does Trump have his unpaid personal lawyer running around eastern Europe conducting under the table foreign policy with known criminals and soon-to-be-felons, trying to dig up the same kind of dirt Trump asked Zelenski for? how does that help corruption in Ukraine? how would having the President of Ukraine call Rudy Guiliani directly help reduce corruption anywhere?
    we know from the now-endless parade of witnesses that Trump’s attempts to arm-twist Ukraine for the benefit of Trump’s re-election campaign were much broader than the phone call, and involved several other high-level WH people. how does this help alleviate corruption in Ukraine?

  848. why would the President of the US be personally interested in the employment history of one specific person, given all the other things going on in the world? and why would Joe Biden Jr’s employment history be tied to military aid for Ukraine?
    and what does the location of the “missing DNC sever” have to do with the national interests of the US or of Ukraine? why did Trump ask for information about that, specifically, and why was it tied to military aid to Ukraine?
    are those two things (the only things Trump conditioned the aid upon, so far as we know) the most pressing examples of corruption in all of Ukraine?
    and is is just a coincidence that one goes to Trump’s effort to try to undo the Mueller findings and the other goes straight at Trump’s most likely rival in 2020 ?
    and why does Trump have his unpaid personal lawyer running around eastern Europe conducting under the table foreign policy with known criminals and soon-to-be-felons, trying to dig up the same kind of dirt Trump asked Zelenski for? how does that help corruption in Ukraine? how would having the President of Ukraine call Rudy Guiliani directly help reduce corruption anywhere?
    we know from the now-endless parade of witnesses that Trump’s attempts to arm-twist Ukraine for the benefit of Trump’s re-election campaign were much broader than the phone call, and involved several other high-level WH people. how does this help alleviate corruption in Ukraine?

  849. GftNC, the trick is to get creative in swearing to get the message across without getting stuck in the filters. Unfortunately, the noble art of swearing has been degraded to where only the most simple of insults are considered. To many only a single swearword is still known and used in excess (eff the effing effers!). There are printed compendia of swearwords with thousands of entries but they more and more become mere objects of antiquarian interest.
    And for the lazy there’s The Bard ( https://www.nosweatshakespeare.com/resources/shakespeare-insults/ )

  850. GftNC, the trick is to get creative in swearing to get the message across without getting stuck in the filters. Unfortunately, the noble art of swearing has been degraded to where only the most simple of insults are considered. To many only a single swearword is still known and used in excess (eff the effing effers!). There are printed compendia of swearwords with thousands of entries but they more and more become mere objects of antiquarian interest.
    And for the lazy there’s The Bard ( https://www.nosweatshakespeare.com/resources/shakespeare-insults/ )

  851. the location of the “missing DNC sever”
    Basement of the DNC. Images of the server have been provided to the FBI.
    That’s my understanding. Be interested in knowing otherwise if the above is not so.
    The Ukraine stuff is Area 51 level nuttiness. If you don’t want to be seen as gullible, don’t believe nonsense.

  852. the location of the “missing DNC sever”
    Basement of the DNC. Images of the server have been provided to the FBI.
    That’s my understanding. Be interested in knowing otherwise if the above is not so.
    The Ukraine stuff is Area 51 level nuttiness. If you don’t want to be seen as gullible, don’t believe nonsense.

  853. “I actually like swearing ….”
    I find that low language enables clear enunciation and improves the wind.
    The King’s English:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVpfljH55TQ
    “Who investigated him?’
    Two countries at least, for all the wrong reasons, which is the problem.
    Hillary Clinton has been cavity-searched, de-wormed, and her fillings examined for listening devices for going on 30 years and regardless of what has not been found, is never cleared.
    It’s good that she expired from advanced melanoma of the vagina, with complications from pneumonia, toenail fungus, and excessive heterosexuality during the 2016 campaign, or she’d still have republican conservative vermin strapping her onto the gyno table for a look see by the ghoulish gropers of the far-right.
    Marty clears himself of all self-awareness, a capital crime in conservative circles, much like the rabid horse loose in the hospital who he enabled to reduce his taxes and increase the Nation’s output of coal ash, among other depredations that they will pay for with their lives in the Civil War they have declared.
    “Biden has been cleared. By who? Who investigated him?”
    You can sense the Soviet roots in such formulations. It’s very much an American activity, going back to McCarthy, not the dummy, the republican asshole.
    Orwell could swear the bloody room an electrifying blue over such horseshit.

  854. “I actually like swearing ….”
    I find that low language enables clear enunciation and improves the wind.
    The King’s English:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVpfljH55TQ
    “Who investigated him?’
    Two countries at least, for all the wrong reasons, which is the problem.
    Hillary Clinton has been cavity-searched, de-wormed, and her fillings examined for listening devices for going on 30 years and regardless of what has not been found, is never cleared.
    It’s good that she expired from advanced melanoma of the vagina, with complications from pneumonia, toenail fungus, and excessive heterosexuality during the 2016 campaign, or she’d still have republican conservative vermin strapping her onto the gyno table for a look see by the ghoulish gropers of the far-right.
    Marty clears himself of all self-awareness, a capital crime in conservative circles, much like the rabid horse loose in the hospital who he enabled to reduce his taxes and increase the Nation’s output of coal ash, among other depredations that they will pay for with their lives in the Civil War they have declared.
    “Biden has been cleared. By who? Who investigated him?”
    You can sense the Soviet roots in such formulations. It’s very much an American activity, going back to McCarthy, not the dummy, the republican asshole.
    Orwell could swear the bloody room an electrifying blue over such horseshit.

  855. The DNC server and Rosemary Woods’ tape recorder are sitting next to each other in an evidence room for safekeeping by the Deep State.
    Lewinsky’s blue dress hangs nearby, and is removed daily by William Barr for masturbation practice.
    The room is not in Ukraine.
    I saw a photo of them, but can’t find it now.

  856. The DNC server and Rosemary Woods’ tape recorder are sitting next to each other in an evidence room for safekeeping by the Deep State.
    Lewinsky’s blue dress hangs nearby, and is removed daily by William Barr for masturbation practice.
    The room is not in Ukraine.
    I saw a photo of them, but can’t find it now.

  857. Jdt, I am happy to take into account any investigation that cleared Biden. But I still have seen no evidence of one. I have read Times articles declaring no evidence has been found, with no further explanation.
    But that’s not what has been stated here. The statement here was Biden has been cleared of any wrongdoing. By who is a legitimate question. My own lack of self awareness aside.

  858. Jdt, I am happy to take into account any investigation that cleared Biden. But I still have seen no evidence of one. I have read Times articles declaring no evidence has been found, with no further explanation.
    But that’s not what has been stated here. The statement here was Biden has been cleared of any wrongdoing. By who is a legitimate question. My own lack of self awareness aside.

  859. “If you don’t want to be seen as gullible …”
    Gullibility is speech protected by the First Amendment.
    Where would Zuckerberg, P.T. Barnum, Madison Avenue and the entire conservative edifice, and yeah, Bill Clinton, be without it.
    Western civilization would collapse without it.
    The secret to living up to America’s exceptional claim that our shit don’t stink has been sniffed out.
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/11/04/suzy-batizs-empire-of-odor
    It’s the perfect melding of American crypto-spirituality and our bowel movements, which have always been linked but not proved until now.
    The almighty dollar and the heads up our asses united into the Godhead of Capitalism.
    Ben Franklin’s “Letter to the Royal Academy on Farting” has been superceded, like everything.

  860. “If you don’t want to be seen as gullible …”
    Gullibility is speech protected by the First Amendment.
    Where would Zuckerberg, P.T. Barnum, Madison Avenue and the entire conservative edifice, and yeah, Bill Clinton, be without it.
    Western civilization would collapse without it.
    The secret to living up to America’s exceptional claim that our shit don’t stink has been sniffed out.
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/11/04/suzy-batizs-empire-of-odor
    It’s the perfect melding of American crypto-spirituality and our bowel movements, which have always been linked but not proved until now.
    The almighty dollar and the heads up our asses united into the Godhead of Capitalism.
    Ben Franklin’s “Letter to the Royal Academy on Farting” has been superceded, like everything.

  861. And sapient’s reply was: who is even investigating Biden? Joe Biden, not Hunter. Is there / was there ever actually an investigation into Biden’s activities in the Ukraine?
    Also a legitimate question. I don’t know the answer, and I’m all Googled out at the moment, so anybody who wants to chime in, please feel free. If only to help put this sorry thread to rest.
    Is / was Joe Biden under investigation for any of his actions in the Ukraine? Not by Fox News or Breitbart or similar, but by some authority that actually has any kind of legitimate jurisdiction over his actions as VP.
    What was the outcome?

  862. And sapient’s reply was: who is even investigating Biden? Joe Biden, not Hunter. Is there / was there ever actually an investigation into Biden’s activities in the Ukraine?
    Also a legitimate question. I don’t know the answer, and I’m all Googled out at the moment, so anybody who wants to chime in, please feel free. If only to help put this sorry thread to rest.
    Is / was Joe Biden under investigation for any of his actions in the Ukraine? Not by Fox News or Breitbart or similar, but by some authority that actually has any kind of legitimate jurisdiction over his actions as VP.
    What was the outcome?

  863. Atrios speaks:
    “If The President Does It
    That’s all they’re going to be left with. Well, it’s really “If A [Republican] President Does It.” The belief that Republicans can do what they want and Democratic power only exists if Republicans benevolently let it happen is wired deeply not just within conservatives but within much of the media establishment and it has been that way since Gingrich.
    It doesn’t matter how many Lindsey Graham “RUUYYYUUUL OF LLAAAAWWWYAAAAW” quotes you pull up from the 90s. They don’t care.”
    Wrap you head around this folks. They don’t care. They need to be crushed.

  864. Atrios speaks:
    “If The President Does It
    That’s all they’re going to be left with. Well, it’s really “If A [Republican] President Does It.” The belief that Republicans can do what they want and Democratic power only exists if Republicans benevolently let it happen is wired deeply not just within conservatives but within much of the media establishment and it has been that way since Gingrich.
    It doesn’t matter how many Lindsey Graham “RUUYYYUUUL OF LLAAAAWWWYAAAAW” quotes you pull up from the 90s. They don’t care.”
    Wrap you head around this folks. They don’t care. They need to be crushed.

  865. given the giant amount of corruption that is surely taking place in Ukraine, Trump mentions two things on that call, both of which will benefit him personally and the country minimally if at all. why is that?
    why is Trump concerned about Joe Biden Jr’s employment history? we know he doesn’t care about nepotism.

  866. given the giant amount of corruption that is surely taking place in Ukraine, Trump mentions two things on that call, both of which will benefit him personally and the country minimally if at all. why is that?
    why is Trump concerned about Joe Biden Jr’s employment history? we know he doesn’t care about nepotism.

  867. A growing number of Senate Republicans are ready to acknowledge that President Trump used U.S. military aid as leverage to force Ukraine to investigate former vice president Joe Biden and his family as the president repeatedly denies a quid pro quo.
    In this shift in strategy to defend Trump, these Republicans are insisting that the president’s action was not illegal and does not rise to the level of an impeachable offense as the Democratic-led House moves forward with the open phase of its probe.

    what does Marty know that these Senators don’t?

  868. A growing number of Senate Republicans are ready to acknowledge that President Trump used U.S. military aid as leverage to force Ukraine to investigate former vice president Joe Biden and his family as the president repeatedly denies a quid pro quo.
    In this shift in strategy to defend Trump, these Republicans are insisting that the president’s action was not illegal and does not rise to the level of an impeachable offense as the Democratic-led House moves forward with the open phase of its probe.

    what does Marty know that these Senators don’t?

  869. Kafka and Christianity hold that we are indicted and guilty of mysterious, irredeemable, (except by coupons issued by grifters who suffer from a crucifixation for a sizable fee) crimes as we exit the birth canal.
    Should p prevail in his hidey-hole legal fiction of the Presidency and not receive deserved savage, butchering justice, I’m going to run for the Presidency, because eternal immunity from personal responsibility, without filing papers in the State of Delaware and opening an anonymous mail drop, has always been my ideal.

  870. Kafka and Christianity hold that we are indicted and guilty of mysterious, irredeemable, (except by coupons issued by grifters who suffer from a crucifixation for a sizable fee) crimes as we exit the birth canal.
    Should p prevail in his hidey-hole legal fiction of the Presidency and not receive deserved savage, butchering justice, I’m going to run for the Presidency, because eternal immunity from personal responsibility, without filing papers in the State of Delaware and opening an anonymous mail drop, has always been my ideal.

  871. By who is a legitimate question.
    The absence of evidence (mysteriously left unexplained)does not clear the accused!
    Right out of the Vyshinsky playbook.

  872. By who is a legitimate question.
    The absence of evidence (mysteriously left unexplained)does not clear the accused!
    Right out of the Vyshinsky playbook.

  873. Thanks for the Vyshinsky reference, bobbyp. I enjoyed looking him up on Wikipedia, and coming across this:
    He is also attributed as the author of an infamous quote from the Stalin era: “Give me a man and I will find the crime.”
    Sounds about right.

  874. Thanks for the Vyshinsky reference, bobbyp. I enjoyed looking him up on Wikipedia, and coming across this:
    He is also attributed as the author of an infamous quote from the Stalin era: “Give me a man and I will find the crime.”
    Sounds about right.

  875. Marty has never been cleared of corruption by any investigation I know of. Perhaps Marty can cite one, though.
    –TP

  876. Marty has never been cleared of corruption by any investigation I know of. Perhaps Marty can cite one, though.
    –TP

  877. “Zelensky is sensitive about Ukraine being taken seriously, not merely as an instrument in Washington domestic, reelection politics.” [Taylor], is something someone would totally write when nobody is trying to get Ukraine involved in US “reelection politics”.

  878. “Zelensky is sensitive about Ukraine being taken seriously, not merely as an instrument in Washington domestic, reelection politics.” [Taylor], is something someone would totally write when nobody is trying to get Ukraine involved in US “reelection politics”.

  881. Given developing legal precedence claimed by the criminal party (“Yeah he did it, and we like it. What are you going to do about? Call the government?”), Biden can moot all investigation by just saying “Yeah, I did it.”
    In conservative circles, they claim without the Christian God, all is possible.
    Now it’s “with Trump, all we desire is inevitable”.
    Indeed it is. Say goodbye to any peaceful future for republican vermin.
    All 80-some million of them.

  882. Given developing legal precedence claimed by the criminal party (“Yeah he did it, and we like it. What are you going to do about? Call the government?”), Biden can moot all investigation by just saying “Yeah, I did it.”
    In conservative circles, they claim without the Christian God, all is possible.
    Now it’s “with Trump, all we desire is inevitable”.
    Indeed it is. Say goodbye to any peaceful future for republican vermin.
    All 80-some million of them.

  883. The New York Rhymes reported for the first time in 2016 that a notorious Obsidian Wings gadfly was a member of an undercover team that secreted a server in the woods of Schmalbania, from where it continues to upload preprogrammed blatherskite to the blog at random intervals. The location is thought to be adjacent to Voldemort’s longtime hiding place, but allegations to that effect have not been verified.
    The undercover team entered Schmalbania on Ruritanian passports, the operative in question using one of his assumed names, “Mobie Vrillinskiy,” thought to be a take-off on the name of an old American sitcom character. Vrillinskiy, or CCDC, or whoever the hell he is, was subsequently appointed to the board of the Ruritanian social media company BSisma, DBA Cloudmike, from which platform he continues to churn out comment verbiage designed to derail threads ad hoc.
    Blog users are advised to be on guard against strongly magnetized hooks disguised as Halloween treats.
    Investigations are ongoing.

    Or, what TP and sapient said.

  884. The New York Rhymes reported for the first time in 2016 that a notorious Obsidian Wings gadfly was a member of an undercover team that secreted a server in the woods of Schmalbania, from where it continues to upload preprogrammed blatherskite to the blog at random intervals. The location is thought to be adjacent to Voldemort’s longtime hiding place, but allegations to that effect have not been verified.
    The undercover team entered Schmalbania on Ruritanian passports, the operative in question using one of his assumed names, “Mobie Vrillinskiy,” thought to be a take-off on the name of an old American sitcom character. Vrillinskiy, or CCDC, or whoever the hell he is, was subsequently appointed to the board of the Ruritanian social media company BSisma, DBA Cloudmike, from which platform he continues to churn out comment verbiage designed to derail threads ad hoc.
    Blog users are advised to be on guard against strongly magnetized hooks disguised as Halloween treats.
    Investigations are ongoing.

    Or, what TP and sapient said.

  885. The Republican Party is manning the barricades with cross-bows and automatic weapons to make sure all of us are forced to die in their suicide cult.
    “Terms used to describe the deaths in Jonestown and Georgetown evolved over time. Many contemporary media accounts after the events called the deaths a mass suicide.[4][5] In contrast, most sources today refer to the deaths with terms such as mass murder-suicide,[6] a massacre,[7][8] or simply mass murder.[9][10] Seventy or more individuals at Jonestown were injected with poison, and a third of the victims (304) were minors.[11][12] Guards armed with guns and crossbows had been ordered to shoot those who fled the Jonestown pavilion as Jones lobbied for suicide.”

  886. The Republican Party is manning the barricades with cross-bows and automatic weapons to make sure all of us are forced to die in their suicide cult.
    “Terms used to describe the deaths in Jonestown and Georgetown evolved over time. Many contemporary media accounts after the events called the deaths a mass suicide.[4][5] In contrast, most sources today refer to the deaths with terms such as mass murder-suicide,[6] a massacre,[7][8] or simply mass murder.[9][10] Seventy or more individuals at Jonestown were injected with poison, and a third of the victims (304) were minors.[11][12] Guards armed with guns and crossbows had been ordered to shoot those who fled the Jonestown pavilion as Jones lobbied for suicide.”

  887. Addendum: Due to the remote nature of the Schmalbanian woods, the hidden server’s automated blatherskite is often out of synch with the latest R-approved talking points.
    The commenter known is cleek is logging the discrepancies in an attempt to pin down the server’s exact location.
    Allegations have also been made that R is a corrupted avatar of Q.
    Investigations are ongoing.

  888. Addendum: Due to the remote nature of the Schmalbanian woods, the hidden server’s automated blatherskite is often out of synch with the latest R-approved talking points.
    The commenter known is cleek is logging the discrepancies in an attempt to pin down the server’s exact location.
    Allegations have also been made that R is a corrupted avatar of Q.
    Investigations are ongoing.

  889. Despite not being that notorious gadfly, I’m delighted by the sound of Shmalbania, and fully intend to holiday there as soon as my Ruritanian passport is ready. You can expect further bulletins on the locations of a) Voldemort or b) the Server as and when I know them.
    In the meantime I’m having (Labour) friends to dinner. If they have anything particularly interesting to say on Corbyn, I will report back in answer to bobbyp’s shamefully neglected query.

  890. Despite not being that notorious gadfly, I’m delighted by the sound of Shmalbania, and fully intend to holiday there as soon as my Ruritanian passport is ready. You can expect further bulletins on the locations of a) Voldemort or b) the Server as and when I know them.
    In the meantime I’m having (Labour) friends to dinner. If they have anything particularly interesting to say on Corbyn, I will report back in answer to bobbyp’s shamefully neglected query.

  891. Cleek’s 11:04 AM is more or less the comment I’ve attempted to write several times but with far less success than cleek. Thanks, cleek!

  892. Cleek’s 11:04 AM is more or less the comment I’ve attempted to write several times but with far less success than cleek. Thanks, cleek!

  893. Hartmut, I’m lucky enough not to get stuck in the filters (for swearing, anyway; trying to post links is another story). And I’m not crazy about your creative swearing suggestion either, it’s not my style. But I did check out your Shakespearean link, and the very first entry (from All’s Well That Ends Well) gave me much joy as a description of the current leaders of both the UK and the US:
    A most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.

  894. Hartmut, I’m lucky enough not to get stuck in the filters (for swearing, anyway; trying to post links is another story). And I’m not crazy about your creative swearing suggestion either, it’s not my style. But I did check out your Shakespearean link, and the very first entry (from All’s Well That Ends Well) gave me much joy as a description of the current leaders of both the UK and the US:
    A most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.

  895. Not having read the posting rules for a long time, I had forgotten that “profanity” violated them. I doubt I’m going to stop breaking that rule semi-regularly, but that would apply to a lot of us “in this day and age,” as my old dad used to say.
    But what on earth gives you (Hartmut and GftNC) the idea that there’s a filter that would trap your swear words? Surely this thread is ample evidence that no such feature exists.
    Not to open the floodgates or anything, I’m sure everyone here will only swear in situation of dire necessity, and creatively whenever possible.

  896. Not having read the posting rules for a long time, I had forgotten that “profanity” violated them. I doubt I’m going to stop breaking that rule semi-regularly, but that would apply to a lot of us “in this day and age,” as my old dad used to say.
    But what on earth gives you (Hartmut and GftNC) the idea that there’s a filter that would trap your swear words? Surely this thread is ample evidence that no such feature exists.
    Not to open the floodgates or anything, I’m sure everyone here will only swear in situation of dire necessity, and creatively whenever possible.

  897. Janie, my 09.38 would have been enough to tell me there are no swearing filters, if I needed telling (I didn’t). But I did have occasion recently to look at the posting rules, so saw to my surprise that profanity violated them. But I think commenters here carefully edit their swearwords if they think necessary, and don’t if it’s against their religion (me), and nobody overdoes it. It doesn’t seem to be any kind of problem.

  898. Janie, my 09.38 would have been enough to tell me there are no swearing filters, if I needed telling (I didn’t). But I did have occasion recently to look at the posting rules, so saw to my surprise that profanity violated them. But I think commenters here carefully edit their swearwords if they think necessary, and don’t if it’s against their religion (me), and nobody overdoes it. It doesn’t seem to be any kind of problem.

  899. If yer gonna swear on ObWi, you by god need to swear in American!!
    and yes, probably time for me to re-set my f-bomb generator to more polite forms.
    Sorry y’all.

  900. If yer gonna swear on ObWi, you by god need to swear in American!!
    and yes, probably time for me to re-set my f-bomb generator to more polite forms.
    Sorry y’all.

  901. Meanwhile….
    Bet nobody saw that one coming.
    I want to just laugh and laugh and laugh about this stuff, because there is something comical about this level of incompetence, but these guys are so malicious that all the humor just gets sucked right out of it.
    Better days soon come.

  902. Meanwhile….
    Bet nobody saw that one coming.
    I want to just laugh and laugh and laugh about this stuff, because there is something comical about this level of incompetence, but these guys are so malicious that all the humor just gets sucked right out of it.
    Better days soon come.

  903. We should all give thanks, early and often, that these guys are so massively and consistently incompetent. Otherwise the damage that they are doing would be far greater. And more difficult to find and prove. (Caveat: for some, no proof will ever concince. I’m talking about criminal trial level proof is all.)
    It’s infuriating. It’s comical . . . or would be if it weren’t doing so much damage. But we should still be thankful for small, or not so small, favors.

  904. We should all give thanks, early and often, that these guys are so massively and consistently incompetent. Otherwise the damage that they are doing would be far greater. And more difficult to find and prove. (Caveat: for some, no proof will ever concince. I’m talking about criminal trial level proof is all.)
    It’s infuriating. It’s comical . . . or would be if it weren’t doing so much damage. But we should still be thankful for small, or not so small, favors.

  907. i’d like it if the world gave me fewer things to swear about.
    I’d probably swear no matter what. I would just prefer to say something like: “WTF! My tomatoes were shitty this year!” Instead of: “WTF! Are we F’ing Nazis now?”
    Sadly, my vocabulary doesn’t appropriately reflect the seriousness of my despair.

  908. i’d like it if the world gave me fewer things to swear about.
    I’d probably swear no matter what. I would just prefer to say something like: “WTF! My tomatoes were shitty this year!” Instead of: “WTF! Are we F’ing Nazis now?”
    Sadly, my vocabulary doesn’t appropriately reflect the seriousness of my despair.

  911. I’m going to run for the Presidency, because eternal immunity from personal responsibility, without filing papers in the State of Delaware and opening an anonymous mail drop, has always been my ideal.
    i wish one of the D’s would make that a talking point: The point of running for the Presidency is not to reach the one position where you are immune from prosecution.

  912. I’m going to run for the Presidency, because eternal immunity from personal responsibility, without filing papers in the State of Delaware and opening an anonymous mail drop, has always been my ideal.
    i wish one of the D’s would make that a talking point: The point of running for the Presidency is not to reach the one position where you are immune from prosecution.

  913. This, about the top film at the Korean box office, is rather striking:
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/11/01/asia-pacific/social-issues-asia-pacific/movie-tackles-south-korean-gender-divide/
    Seo Mi-jeong, a 23-year-old woman who was among those in tears during the screening, said the movie didn’t seem zealously “feminist” — simply a realistic portrayal of the challenges women face.
    “Although there were some parts that seemed exaggerated for storytelling, it touched on realities in South Korean society that keep women of different generations from the life they wanted to lead,” she said.
    The movie has highlighted stark gender divides, including the growing number of young South Korean men who think feminism and the #MeToo movement have outlived their usefulness.
    “I couldn’t empathize with the premise that a woman born in 1982 was discriminated against when she was growing up,” said Kim Won-koo, a 29-year-old man who saw it on opening day. “Many of the situations seem unrealistic or very, very rare.”
    Women rated the film an average of 9.5 out of 10 stars on Naver, South Korea’s top search portal. Men gave it 2.5 stars….

  914. This, about the top film at the Korean box office, is rather striking:
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/11/01/asia-pacific/social-issues-asia-pacific/movie-tackles-south-korean-gender-divide/
    Seo Mi-jeong, a 23-year-old woman who was among those in tears during the screening, said the movie didn’t seem zealously “feminist” — simply a realistic portrayal of the challenges women face.
    “Although there were some parts that seemed exaggerated for storytelling, it touched on realities in South Korean society that keep women of different generations from the life they wanted to lead,” she said.
    The movie has highlighted stark gender divides, including the growing number of young South Korean men who think feminism and the #MeToo movement have outlived their usefulness.
    “I couldn’t empathize with the premise that a woman born in 1982 was discriminated against when she was growing up,” said Kim Won-koo, a 29-year-old man who saw it on opening day. “Many of the situations seem unrealistic or very, very rare.”
    Women rated the film an average of 9.5 out of 10 stars on Naver, South Korea’s top search portal. Men gave it 2.5 stars….

  919. I know that there are no (imposed) filters here but this may not be true for the computers people read this stuff on and which could cause trouble (the classic NSFW comes to mind).
    Personally, I do not care if people use ‘bad’ words as such, the only matter is for what purpose. But we all know the rampant hysteria in the US about this (violence is OK, sex* and swearing are not).
    *to such an absurd degree that self-screening for breast cancer has to be demonstrated on male breasts in health awareness videos and a toddler can be registered as a sex offender for life for watching his (also pre-school) sister pee.
    Not to forget the legal consequences of a certain ‘wardrobe malfunction’ for US broadcasting.

  920. I know that there are no (imposed) filters here but this may not be true for the computers people read this stuff on and which could cause trouble (the classic NSFW comes to mind).
    Personally, I do not care if people use ‘bad’ words as such, the only matter is for what purpose. But we all know the rampant hysteria in the US about this (violence is OK, sex* and swearing are not).
    *to such an absurd degree that self-screening for breast cancer has to be demonstrated on male breasts in health awareness videos and a toddler can be registered as a sex offender for life for watching his (also pre-school) sister pee.
    Not to forget the legal consequences of a certain ‘wardrobe malfunction’ for US broadcasting.

  921. http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/11/the-republican-party-is-a-hate-group
    Is Marty on board with getting rid of these Obama-era civil rights regulations as well?
    Tell it to a gay man or a lesbian armed with an AR-15, I fucking dare you.
    Tony Perkins et al will be executed.
    This country will go not through decades or another hundred years of another betraying version of Jim Crow, which was at its base a carve out, a religious exemption, for the Christian white race to publicly practice racism against the black race, to shut out the LGBT folk from the full benefits of American life.
    This time around, conservatives, any foot-dragging regarding any rules against discrimination will be met with savage violence, not 100 years from now, not ten years from now …. NOW!.
    The very existence of the Republican Party and that its vermin are permitted to run my government and walk the streets is a fundamental insult to my spiritual druthers.
    Also, fuck Rod Dreher.

  922. http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/11/the-republican-party-is-a-hate-group
    Is Marty on board with getting rid of these Obama-era civil rights regulations as well?
    Tell it to a gay man or a lesbian armed with an AR-15, I fucking dare you.
    Tony Perkins et al will be executed.
    This country will go not through decades or another hundred years of another betraying version of Jim Crow, which was at its base a carve out, a religious exemption, for the Christian white race to publicly practice racism against the black race, to shut out the LGBT folk from the full benefits of American life.
    This time around, conservatives, any foot-dragging regarding any rules against discrimination will be met with savage violence, not 100 years from now, not ten years from now …. NOW!.
    The very existence of the Republican Party and that its vermin are permitted to run my government and walk the streets is a fundamental insult to my spiritual druthers.
    Also, fuck Rod Dreher.

  925. Reading the article that bobbyp links to above (at 6:45), one thought arises. At the risk of sounding like Mr Thullen, there’s one huge diffetence between whites in South Africa during apartheid and the GOP today. Despite the NRA’s best efforts, they have nothing like a monopoly on firearms.
    OK, actually there’s two. A huge portion of the military, specifically the grunts in the trenches, is composed of members of groups that today’s GOP persists in demonizing: non-whites and immigrants.
    Which means that minority rule by brute force isn’t actually an option. Yes, a combination of inertia, political power, careful stacking of the Federal judiciary, and some local law enforcement can keep things going for a while. But if things get physical, it’s all over. Messy, no doubt, but the outcome really isn’t in doubt.

  926. Reading the article that bobbyp links to above (at 6:45), one thought arises. At the risk of sounding like Mr Thullen, there’s one huge diffetence between whites in South Africa during apartheid and the GOP today. Despite the NRA’s best efforts, they have nothing like a monopoly on firearms.
    OK, actually there’s two. A huge portion of the military, specifically the grunts in the trenches, is composed of members of groups that today’s GOP persists in demonizing: non-whites and immigrants.
    Which means that minority rule by brute force isn’t actually an option. Yes, a combination of inertia, political power, careful stacking of the Federal judiciary, and some local law enforcement can keep things going for a while. But if things get physical, it’s all over. Messy, no doubt, but the outcome really isn’t in doubt.

  927. You got any stats, wj?
    I see this, which doesn’t exactly support your contention, although a lot dependson what “a huge portion” means. It’s certainly not close to a majority. (N.b. the graph apparently double-counts some people, e.g. “Two or more races.” Lies, damned lies….etc.)

  928. You got any stats, wj?
    I see this, which doesn’t exactly support your contention, although a lot dependson what “a huge portion” means. It’s certainly not close to a majority. (N.b. the graph apparently double-counts some people, e.g. “Two or more races.” Lies, damned lies….etc.)

  929. Profanity:
    If you really feel the need to get it off your chest, but don’t want to fall afoul of posting rules, there is always the Roman Moroni option.
    Recommended for mixed company, but probably not for when the kids are around – little pitchers have big ears.

  930. Profanity:
    If you really feel the need to get it off your chest, but don’t want to fall afoul of posting rules, there is always the Roman Moroni option.
    Recommended for mixed company, but probably not for when the kids are around – little pitchers have big ears.

  931. Continuing my random walk through the internetz (via LGM, in this case).
    Not to continue the Marty pile-on, but I’m… unsettled by folks who tell us the economy is roaring, but who are also moving to cash.
    This stuff is mostly above my pay grade, but it seems kinda hinky, to me. “Stuff” here not meaning Marty’s investment choices, but the stuff in the article. Maybe some of the more financially astute can unpack it for us.
    Watch yer backs.

  932. Continuing my random walk through the internetz (via LGM, in this case).
    Not to continue the Marty pile-on, but I’m… unsettled by folks who tell us the economy is roaring, but who are also moving to cash.
    This stuff is mostly above my pay grade, but it seems kinda hinky, to me. “Stuff” here not meaning Marty’s investment choices, but the stuff in the article. Maybe some of the more financially astute can unpack it for us.
    Watch yer backs.

  933. If it were me, profanity wouldn’t be against the posting rules. I mean, are we going to ban “fncking” and all the other variations?
    One time when my son was about three, we got into the check-out line at the grocery store. There was a little old lady behind us. My son all of a sudden got upset and said, rather loudly, “Oh shit, I forgot Big Bird!”
    The little old lady glared.
    When we got home my son and I had a little talk about context.
    Later my kids got rather puritanical about language, and would chide me for “swears,” as they say around here. I really didn’t think it was fair that I had to hear it first from my parents when I was a kid, and then from my kids when I was a parent.
    Another kid story: when my daughter was about six, I picked up a friend to go out to an evening event. The friend’s mother-in-law lived with them, and my daughter was going to hang out for the evening with the mother-in-law, who happened to be a minister. We all knew they both liked movies, so it seemed like they’d get along fine. When we got there, Rev. Mother-in-law asked my daughter what movies she liked, and my daughter said, “True Lies” and “The Little Mermaid.”
    I got out of the house quickly and let them sort it out.
    ****
    Noting Hartmut’s observation at 7:33 about the absurd amount of violence American kids are exposed to, while having to be “protected” from anything to do with sex — I didn’t believe in hiding sex or swearing from my kids. I didn’t do the greatest job, I’m sure, but I tried to be more open about sex than my parents were with me. We had our first talk about sex when they were maybe 4 or 5 years old, triggered by Magic Johnson’s announcement that he was HIV positive. One of the kids asked, “Could I get that sickness?” Weird trigger for the conversation, but it ended up being pretty hilarious.

  934. If it were me, profanity wouldn’t be against the posting rules. I mean, are we going to ban “fncking” and all the other variations?
    One time when my son was about three, we got into the check-out line at the grocery store. There was a little old lady behind us. My son all of a sudden got upset and said, rather loudly, “Oh shit, I forgot Big Bird!”
    The little old lady glared.
    When we got home my son and I had a little talk about context.
    Later my kids got rather puritanical about language, and would chide me for “swears,” as they say around here. I really didn’t think it was fair that I had to hear it first from my parents when I was a kid, and then from my kids when I was a parent.
    Another kid story: when my daughter was about six, I picked up a friend to go out to an evening event. The friend’s mother-in-law lived with them, and my daughter was going to hang out for the evening with the mother-in-law, who happened to be a minister. We all knew they both liked movies, so it seemed like they’d get along fine. When we got there, Rev. Mother-in-law asked my daughter what movies she liked, and my daughter said, “True Lies” and “The Little Mermaid.”
    I got out of the house quickly and let them sort it out.
    ****
    Noting Hartmut’s observation at 7:33 about the absurd amount of violence American kids are exposed to, while having to be “protected” from anything to do with sex — I didn’t believe in hiding sex or swearing from my kids. I didn’t do the greatest job, I’m sure, but I tried to be more open about sex than my parents were with me. We had our first talk about sex when they were maybe 4 or 5 years old, triggered by Magic Johnson’s announcement that he was HIV positive. One of the kids asked, “Could I get that sickness?” Weird trigger for the conversation, but it ended up being pretty hilarious.

  935. One of the most stupid and depressing aspects of sex hangups in the US is putting teenage girls in jail and on the sex offender list for sexting a nude image of herself to her boyfriend. And the same can happen to him for having the image. Whatever happen to being grounded for a month?

  936. One of the most stupid and depressing aspects of sex hangups in the US is putting teenage girls in jail and on the sex offender list for sexting a nude image of herself to her boyfriend. And the same can happen to him for having the image. Whatever happen to being grounded for a month?

  937. My mother used to tell this story. When I was maybe 5, my little brother (in response to who knows what) burst out: “Damn it!” And I, ever the instructive elder brother, said quietly: “No, David. It’s ‘God damn it.'”
    She says it was a wake-up call to clean up her language. “Out of the mouths of babes” and all that.

  938. My mother used to tell this story. When I was maybe 5, my little brother (in response to who knows what) burst out: “Damn it!” And I, ever the instructive elder brother, said quietly: “No, David. It’s ‘God damn it.'”
    She says it was a wake-up call to clean up her language. “Out of the mouths of babes” and all that.

  939. Since the constitution consists 100% of Bible quotes (according to e.g. David Barton) Leviticus 18 is obviously the law of the land.
    So please abstain from uncovering anyone’s or anybody’s nakedness.
    Smashing the heads of (foreign born) babies on rocks is OK (covered so to say) though.

  940. Since the constitution consists 100% of Bible quotes (according to e.g. David Barton) Leviticus 18 is obviously the law of the land.
    So please abstain from uncovering anyone’s or anybody’s nakedness.
    Smashing the heads of (foreign born) babies on rocks is OK (covered so to say) though.

  941. What is guiding conservatives and the GOP these days is nothing less than a naked and remorseless will to power.
    Maybe, but IMO what motivates their base is fear.
    Immigrants are gonna change their culture, the government is going to take their guns which they need to prevent the government from taking their guns, weirdos are going to invade their bathrooms. Gays are imposing their homosexual agenda on everybody else. There is a war on Christmas.
    Everyone is afraid, which is to say at least highly concerned if not more, about the consequences of their political or social opposites gaining and holding power.
    But the fear of the (R) base seems, to me, to be about a sense of being under attack.
    There is some of that on the “left”, e.g. the loss of actual civil rights like single-sex marriage or the ability to have a legal abortion. But those seem much more tangible to me – i.e., gays actually *have* been unable to marry, and women actually *have* lacked access to legal abortion.
    The (R) base fear seems less grounded in reality. To me. It seems somewhat paranoid.
    My turn to be ObWi shrink.
    To me, the path forward from the farging clusterfork we are currently in is unwinding that sense of being under attack.
    I have no particularly good ideas for how to make that happen. Mandatory nation-wide encounter groups? Heavy doses of Zoloft in the water supply? Blow up Fox News and Breitbart and plow the ground they stood on with salt?
    All ideas, but not very practical.
    How do you convince tens of millions of people that their lives are not going to end if people speak Spanish, or gays get married, or we ban ammunition magazines holding more than ten rounds, or people say “Happy Holiday” instead of “Merry Christmas”?
    Not only not end, but probably not even be affected in any material way? Nobody is going to make anyone stop hunting, or going to church, or saying “Merry Christmas”. Nobody is going to make anyone marry somebody of the same sex.
    I don’t know how to unwind it. But IMO unwind that, and the issue of the (R)’s holding undeserved power goes away.
    And now I’m off to church where I will accompany the choir in their rendition of “We Shall Overcome” on the cajon. It’s how we do here in liberal coastal elite land.

  942. What is guiding conservatives and the GOP these days is nothing less than a naked and remorseless will to power.
    Maybe, but IMO what motivates their base is fear.
    Immigrants are gonna change their culture, the government is going to take their guns which they need to prevent the government from taking their guns, weirdos are going to invade their bathrooms. Gays are imposing their homosexual agenda on everybody else. There is a war on Christmas.
    Everyone is afraid, which is to say at least highly concerned if not more, about the consequences of their political or social opposites gaining and holding power.
    But the fear of the (R) base seems, to me, to be about a sense of being under attack.
    There is some of that on the “left”, e.g. the loss of actual civil rights like single-sex marriage or the ability to have a legal abortion. But those seem much more tangible to me – i.e., gays actually *have* been unable to marry, and women actually *have* lacked access to legal abortion.
    The (R) base fear seems less grounded in reality. To me. It seems somewhat paranoid.
    My turn to be ObWi shrink.
    To me, the path forward from the farging clusterfork we are currently in is unwinding that sense of being under attack.
    I have no particularly good ideas for how to make that happen. Mandatory nation-wide encounter groups? Heavy doses of Zoloft in the water supply? Blow up Fox News and Breitbart and plow the ground they stood on with salt?
    All ideas, but not very practical.
    How do you convince tens of millions of people that their lives are not going to end if people speak Spanish, or gays get married, or we ban ammunition magazines holding more than ten rounds, or people say “Happy Holiday” instead of “Merry Christmas”?
    Not only not end, but probably not even be affected in any material way? Nobody is going to make anyone stop hunting, or going to church, or saying “Merry Christmas”. Nobody is going to make anyone marry somebody of the same sex.
    I don’t know how to unwind it. But IMO unwind that, and the issue of the (R)’s holding undeserved power goes away.
    And now I’m off to church where I will accompany the choir in their rendition of “We Shall Overcome” on the cajon. It’s how we do here in liberal coastal elite land.

  943. How do you convince tens of millions of people that their lives are not going to end if people speak Spanish, or gays get married, or we ban ammunition magazines holding more than ten rounds, or people say “Happy Holiday” instead of “Merry Christmas”?
    it would be nice if the industries dedicated to convincing them of those things in the first place would devote themselves to something positive.
    ex. if the NRA wasn’t out there ginning-up gun sales by scaring people into thinking No really, this time they’re coming for them! Buy all the guns you can, right now! we might be able to have sane gun policies. but the NRA knows it’s cheap and easy and effective to scare people into buying more product.

  944. How do you convince tens of millions of people that their lives are not going to end if people speak Spanish, or gays get married, or we ban ammunition magazines holding more than ten rounds, or people say “Happy Holiday” instead of “Merry Christmas”?
    it would be nice if the industries dedicated to convincing them of those things in the first place would devote themselves to something positive.
    ex. if the NRA wasn’t out there ginning-up gun sales by scaring people into thinking No really, this time they’re coming for them! Buy all the guns you can, right now! we might be able to have sane gun policies. but the NRA knows it’s cheap and easy and effective to scare people into buying more product.

  945. I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

  946. I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

  947. What is guiding conservatives and the GOP these days is nothing less than a naked and remorseless will to power.
    Maybe, but IMO what motivates their base is fear.
    Just don’t leave out the fact that the fear is being (and has been for a long time) deliberately stoked in service of that will to power. Saying “if only the NRA wasn’t doing such and such” kind of skates over the fact that they are doing such on such on purpose deliberately to make sure the fear stays in place. Same with the other “industries dedicated to convincing them…”
    It’s not like the people who run those industries are just getting their kicks manipulating people’s minds, and the fact that a minority is very near to keeping and holding power indefinitely is just a side effect. It is the whole point. (Well, besides the $$$$$$$.)
    On a more agreeable (i.e. agreeing with you/russell) side, what you say about fears of tangible things vs fears of phantasms is right on. The tangible things are already happening to women, to minorities, to LGBTQ people. (Well, in reality, a lot of stuff never stopped happening, on the ground, but now it’s getting rapidly much worse, and backed by law.)
    Some government official in Missouri (?) … tracking a clinic’s records women’s periods with a spreadsheet? Check.
    A return to discrimination against gay people in adoption and a lot of other daily contexts?. Check.
    For us, this is not some boogey-man fear ginned up to beef up gun sales and R votes, it’s an actual factual situation that is already upon us. You can’t tell me it won’t become drastically worse if Clickbait is reelected.
    And that’s without even mentioning the treatment of minorities and immigrants.

  948. What is guiding conservatives and the GOP these days is nothing less than a naked and remorseless will to power.
    Maybe, but IMO what motivates their base is fear.
    Just don’t leave out the fact that the fear is being (and has been for a long time) deliberately stoked in service of that will to power. Saying “if only the NRA wasn’t doing such and such” kind of skates over the fact that they are doing such on such on purpose deliberately to make sure the fear stays in place. Same with the other “industries dedicated to convincing them…”
    It’s not like the people who run those industries are just getting their kicks manipulating people’s minds, and the fact that a minority is very near to keeping and holding power indefinitely is just a side effect. It is the whole point. (Well, besides the $$$$$$$.)
    On a more agreeable (i.e. agreeing with you/russell) side, what you say about fears of tangible things vs fears of phantasms is right on. The tangible things are already happening to women, to minorities, to LGBTQ people. (Well, in reality, a lot of stuff never stopped happening, on the ground, but now it’s getting rapidly much worse, and backed by law.)
    Some government official in Missouri (?) … tracking a clinic’s records women’s periods with a spreadsheet? Check.
    A return to discrimination against gay people in adoption and a lot of other daily contexts?. Check.
    For us, this is not some boogey-man fear ginned up to beef up gun sales and R votes, it’s an actual factual situation that is already upon us. You can’t tell me it won’t become drastically worse if Clickbait is reelected.
    And that’s without even mentioning the treatment of minorities and immigrants.

  949. Immigrants are gonna change their culture, the government is going to take their guns which they need to prevent the government from taking their guns, weirdos are going to invade their bathrooms. Gays are imposing their homosexual agenda on everybody else. There is a war on Christmas.
    And “the left” wants to take away their money and ensure that their jobs (in coal, in oil etc) disappear in the name of imaginary climate change. Also, to eliminate any chance of “real Americans” achieving the American dream. I’d say we now have a perfect understanding of Trump voters. No longer any need to go into “the heartland” to get voxpops.

  950. Immigrants are gonna change their culture, the government is going to take their guns which they need to prevent the government from taking their guns, weirdos are going to invade their bathrooms. Gays are imposing their homosexual agenda on everybody else. There is a war on Christmas.
    And “the left” wants to take away their money and ensure that their jobs (in coal, in oil etc) disappear in the name of imaginary climate change. Also, to eliminate any chance of “real Americans” achieving the American dream. I’d say we now have a perfect understanding of Trump voters. No longer any need to go into “the heartland” to get voxpops.

  951. To me, the path forward from the farging clusterfork we are currently in is unwinding that sense of being under attack.
    I have no particularly good ideas for how to make that happen.
    We may have a recent experience which will suggest something. When people started discovering just how many of them had close relatives and friends who were homosexual, attitudes changed with incredible speed. Yes, it was rough on those who came out first. And yes, some people cut off family members who came out of the closet. But overall, the culture shifted, and remarkably quickly. (Which is, of course, exactly what the fearful are in a panic about.)
    Note also that levels of fear of immigrant invasion are highest in those areas which currently have the lowest level of immigrants. If your community has lots of immigrants, you tend to be more realistic about how (un)threatening the really are.
    The question then becomes, how do we (subtly!) get people into situations where they can see first hand the people or practices they are currently in a panic about. We can’t just mandate encounter groups, because that starts everybody out with mental barriers in place. But maybe there is some other way….

  952. To me, the path forward from the farging clusterfork we are currently in is unwinding that sense of being under attack.
    I have no particularly good ideas for how to make that happen.
    We may have a recent experience which will suggest something. When people started discovering just how many of them had close relatives and friends who were homosexual, attitudes changed with incredible speed. Yes, it was rough on those who came out first. And yes, some people cut off family members who came out of the closet. But overall, the culture shifted, and remarkably quickly. (Which is, of course, exactly what the fearful are in a panic about.)
    Note also that levels of fear of immigrant invasion are highest in those areas which currently have the lowest level of immigrants. If your community has lots of immigrants, you tend to be more realistic about how (un)threatening the really are.
    The question then becomes, how do we (subtly!) get people into situations where they can see first hand the people or practices they are currently in a panic about. We can’t just mandate encounter groups, because that starts everybody out with mental barriers in place. But maybe there is some other way….

  953. Saying “if only the NRA wasn’t doing such and such” kind of skates over the fact that they are doing such on such on purpose deliberately to make sure the fear stays in place. Same with the other “industries dedicated to convincing them…”
    Yup. Such folks have interests that are diametrically opposed to the interests I, to take one very tiny example, support. In order for “our” interests to prevail those other interests need to be neutered, obliterated, or public incentives enforced to stop rewarding their socially destructive behavior.
    “Reaching out” to them is not going to cut it.
    It also bears repeating that the conservative “movement” is, at bottom, a highly ideologically driven one. They exhibit characteristics common with other ideologically driven groups such as the early Jesuits, Bolsheviks, and Nazis.
    The next time you try to wrap your head around the Trump phenomenon, keep this in mind.
    I would opine that JDT knows this deep in his bones, but that’s just me. Would that we all did.

  954. Saying “if only the NRA wasn’t doing such and such” kind of skates over the fact that they are doing such on such on purpose deliberately to make sure the fear stays in place. Same with the other “industries dedicated to convincing them…”
    Yup. Such folks have interests that are diametrically opposed to the interests I, to take one very tiny example, support. In order for “our” interests to prevail those other interests need to be neutered, obliterated, or public incentives enforced to stop rewarding their socially destructive behavior.
    “Reaching out” to them is not going to cut it.
    It also bears repeating that the conservative “movement” is, at bottom, a highly ideologically driven one. They exhibit characteristics common with other ideologically driven groups such as the early Jesuits, Bolsheviks, and Nazis.
    The next time you try to wrap your head around the Trump phenomenon, keep this in mind.
    I would opine that JDT knows this deep in his bones, but that’s just me. Would that we all did.

  955. kind of skates over the fact that they are doing such on such on purpose deliberately to make sure the fear stays in place
    well, “industries dedicated” to something implies making it stay in place. an industry isn’t a transient thing, right?

  956. kind of skates over the fact that they are doing such on such on purpose deliberately to make sure the fear stays in place
    well, “industries dedicated” to something implies making it stay in place. an industry isn’t a transient thing, right?

  957. What I am trying to get at here is – is there a way for People Like Me to help People Not Like Me to not be afraid of stuff that People Like Me think are good ideas?
    I don’t mean to be condescending when I say this at all – I do not – but it feels to me like trying to talk people down off a ledge.
    Or, to hark back to something Janie has shared many times – how do I (or People Like Me) make it safe for you (or People Not Like Me) to hear what I need to say?
    How do you create a “safe space” for people who are (for instance) so afraid of their own government that they feel the need to assemble personal arsenals? Or build a (as it turns out, useless) wall hundreds of miles long to prevent poor people from walking into the country to find work or get away from actual, palpable danger?
    Or, you know, lather rinse and repeat for any of the other boogeymen that seem to trouble people.
    What do People Who Are Not Like Me need in order to feel safe enough to even have a reasonable – by which I mean fact- and evidence-based – conversation about this stuff?
    I’m not sure there’s anyone here at ObWi that is in a position to answer this. Maybe Marty? Probably not the other conservative voices – wj, McK. I’m just putting it out there as a question.
    We (Americans) need to find a way to walk this all back. Fox, the NRA, whoever, is going to keep pumping out whatever BS they like. We need to counter that in some way.
    This also, of course, feeds into the 2020 campaign. I’ll say that Warren is the candidate who is probably closest to my own values and priorities, and I’ll also say that I almost wish she hadn’t run. Because she’s having a good race, and she has a reasonable chance of being the nominee.
    And she is going to scare the crap out of People Who Are Not Like Me.
    Should she get the nomination, perhaps she can overcome what is certain to be a gut-level aversion to her as some kind of liberal socialist Harvard pointy-headed know-it-all who is going to tell everybody how to tie their shoes, whether they like it or not. Or, perhaps not. Either way, that is going to be the spin on her. That is going to be the hill she will need to climb.
    If I, personally, had to pick somebody by sheer fiat to be the next POTUS, I’d probably pick somebody like Klobuchar. Not because she’s closer to my own preferences on policy, but because she’d be close enough on the issues, and generally less likely to freak out People Who Are Not Like Me.
    Not saying I prefer her as a nominee, or saying she even has a realistic shot. Just making a comment about what appears to the state of folks’ minds.
    A lot of people appear to be profoundly afraid. Of stuff that is really unlikely to actually have any effect on them at all. It seems to express itself as a kind of belligerent truculence – WE HAVE ALL THE GUNS!! TAKE THAT LIBERAL SNOWFLAKES!! – but think behind all of that, a lot of people are scared sh*tless.
    Also, hairshirt – hard for me to overstate how large a place that Bene Geserit meditation (not literally, but in essence) has played in my life. It’s actually a very useful practice.

  958. What I am trying to get at here is – is there a way for People Like Me to help People Not Like Me to not be afraid of stuff that People Like Me think are good ideas?
    I don’t mean to be condescending when I say this at all – I do not – but it feels to me like trying to talk people down off a ledge.
    Or, to hark back to something Janie has shared many times – how do I (or People Like Me) make it safe for you (or People Not Like Me) to hear what I need to say?
    How do you create a “safe space” for people who are (for instance) so afraid of their own government that they feel the need to assemble personal arsenals? Or build a (as it turns out, useless) wall hundreds of miles long to prevent poor people from walking into the country to find work or get away from actual, palpable danger?
    Or, you know, lather rinse and repeat for any of the other boogeymen that seem to trouble people.
    What do People Who Are Not Like Me need in order to feel safe enough to even have a reasonable – by which I mean fact- and evidence-based – conversation about this stuff?
    I’m not sure there’s anyone here at ObWi that is in a position to answer this. Maybe Marty? Probably not the other conservative voices – wj, McK. I’m just putting it out there as a question.
    We (Americans) need to find a way to walk this all back. Fox, the NRA, whoever, is going to keep pumping out whatever BS they like. We need to counter that in some way.
    This also, of course, feeds into the 2020 campaign. I’ll say that Warren is the candidate who is probably closest to my own values and priorities, and I’ll also say that I almost wish she hadn’t run. Because she’s having a good race, and she has a reasonable chance of being the nominee.
    And she is going to scare the crap out of People Who Are Not Like Me.
    Should she get the nomination, perhaps she can overcome what is certain to be a gut-level aversion to her as some kind of liberal socialist Harvard pointy-headed know-it-all who is going to tell everybody how to tie their shoes, whether they like it or not. Or, perhaps not. Either way, that is going to be the spin on her. That is going to be the hill she will need to climb.
    If I, personally, had to pick somebody by sheer fiat to be the next POTUS, I’d probably pick somebody like Klobuchar. Not because she’s closer to my own preferences on policy, but because she’d be close enough on the issues, and generally less likely to freak out People Who Are Not Like Me.
    Not saying I prefer her as a nominee, or saying she even has a realistic shot. Just making a comment about what appears to the state of folks’ minds.
    A lot of people appear to be profoundly afraid. Of stuff that is really unlikely to actually have any effect on them at all. It seems to express itself as a kind of belligerent truculence – WE HAVE ALL THE GUNS!! TAKE THAT LIBERAL SNOWFLAKES!! – but think behind all of that, a lot of people are scared sh*tless.
    Also, hairshirt – hard for me to overstate how large a place that Bene Geserit meditation (not literally, but in essence) has played in my life. It’s actually a very useful practice.

  959. Remember, it does not matter who the Dems nominate as far as GOP propaganda goes. He or she will be painted as the most radical extremist in the history of the universe, and significant parts of the GOP/TP base will unhesitatingly believe it. And googling “candidate X is the antichrist” will yield ever increasing numbers of hits. Should it be a person of color, then there will be a strong minority claiming that (s)he is just the antichrist’s herald because even Satan will not sink so low as to incarnate as a n-word (as could be observed with regard to Obama).
    Or, as has become a cliche, the Dems could nominate Jesus H. Christ and we would see a campaign against Middle Eastern commies undermining the true fabric of America.

  960. Remember, it does not matter who the Dems nominate as far as GOP propaganda goes. He or she will be painted as the most radical extremist in the history of the universe, and significant parts of the GOP/TP base will unhesitatingly believe it. And googling “candidate X is the antichrist” will yield ever increasing numbers of hits. Should it be a person of color, then there will be a strong minority claiming that (s)he is just the antichrist’s herald because even Satan will not sink so low as to incarnate as a n-word (as could be observed with regard to Obama).
    Or, as has become a cliche, the Dems could nominate Jesus H. Christ and we would see a campaign against Middle Eastern commies undermining the true fabric of America.

  961. I would like to live up to that thing russell cites me for, but I don’t. russell inspires me to keep trying again.
    As for Warren — sometimes, when I can stomach it, I read parts of threads over at BJ, and so many of them now end up being spitting matches about candidates. And it makes me so tired….
    Warren is my top choice, although I would vote enthusiastically for most of them (with a couple of exceptions that you can probably guess, including all the billionaire vanity candidates, if there are any of those left).
    But I said to my son very very early on that I wished Warren wouldn’t run, or be nominated, because she seems to be such a rich target for the lying and smearing machine. And my son, who I don’t think would put her at the top of his list at all, said: that should not be a consideration. It doesn’t matter who gets nominated, the same lying-smearing-fear campaign will commence.
    I suppose you can argue that the smearing will be more effective with some candidates than others, but talk to John Kerry about that.

  962. I would like to live up to that thing russell cites me for, but I don’t. russell inspires me to keep trying again.
    As for Warren — sometimes, when I can stomach it, I read parts of threads over at BJ, and so many of them now end up being spitting matches about candidates. And it makes me so tired….
    Warren is my top choice, although I would vote enthusiastically for most of them (with a couple of exceptions that you can probably guess, including all the billionaire vanity candidates, if there are any of those left).
    But I said to my son very very early on that I wished Warren wouldn’t run, or be nominated, because she seems to be such a rich target for the lying and smearing machine. And my son, who I don’t think would put her at the top of his list at all, said: that should not be a consideration. It doesn’t matter who gets nominated, the same lying-smearing-fear campaign will commence.
    I suppose you can argue that the smearing will be more effective with some candidates than others, but talk to John Kerry about that.

  965. PS I too think about that Bene Gesserit mantra a lot. … In fact, I’ve been thinking about the Bene Gesserit a lot lately for other reasons. But I don’t have time to elaborate right now, maybe later.

  966. PS I too think about that Bene Gesserit mantra a lot. … In fact, I’ve been thinking about the Bene Gesserit a lot lately for other reasons. But I don’t have time to elaborate right now, maybe later.

  967. How to fight back against the rhetoric of fear:
    https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-turn-conservatives-liberal-john-bargh-psychology-2017-10
    I was with my wife at the World Fantasy Convention this weekend and we attended a panel discussing Hopepunk vs. Grimdark. The consensus between the authors on the panel was that both are forms of the literature of resistance, but that each spoke to a different historical and political moment. Grimdark was the mode when it seemed that the line of history was bending towards justice; it aimed at stripping the glamour of myth from political violence. But now that we are in a moment where nationalism, fascism, and disaster capitalism are rampant, people need the small utopianism of hopepunk to keep them from despair and nihilism.
    That’s what those psych experiments are pointing towards as well.
    I worry that the DNC and their media proxies are still trying to fight the RW stream of fear with a more moderate version of that message when it would be more effective to grab hold of a more utopian, hopepunk political message.

  968. How to fight back against the rhetoric of fear:
    https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-turn-conservatives-liberal-john-bargh-psychology-2017-10
    I was with my wife at the World Fantasy Convention this weekend and we attended a panel discussing Hopepunk vs. Grimdark. The consensus between the authors on the panel was that both are forms of the literature of resistance, but that each spoke to a different historical and political moment. Grimdark was the mode when it seemed that the line of history was bending towards justice; it aimed at stripping the glamour of myth from political violence. But now that we are in a moment where nationalism, fascism, and disaster capitalism are rampant, people need the small utopianism of hopepunk to keep them from despair and nihilism.
    That’s what those psych experiments are pointing towards as well.
    I worry that the DNC and their media proxies are still trying to fight the RW stream of fear with a more moderate version of that message when it would be more effective to grab hold of a more utopian, hopepunk political message.

  969. Thanks for the link, nous.
    I, for one, am willing to procure and distribute as many super-hero capes as I can lay my hands on, if that will help people be less afraid of People Like Me.
    And yes, that was a joke, at least partly at my own expense.

  970. Thanks for the link, nous.
    I, for one, am willing to procure and distribute as many super-hero capes as I can lay my hands on, if that will help people be less afraid of People Like Me.
    And yes, that was a joke, at least partly at my own expense.

  971. I feel humbled and a bit foolish about my snarky addendum @09.56 to russell’s 09.05. He, as so often, was actually trying for something constructive, a way forward, as he makes even clearer @11.49. The issue of how to follow Janie’s late friend’s mantra about making it safe for the other side to hear what you have to say, is key, but other than trying to be respectful (which I try not always successfully to do), I have no suggestions. But when russell says:
    What do People Who Are Not Like Me need in order to feel safe enough to even have a reasonable – by which I mean fact- and evidence-based – conversation about this stuff?
    I can only say yet again, that the crux is in finding a way for all “sides” to accept the concept and definition of evidence-based facts, so that they then have the ability to proceed from those facts which both “sides” agree on. Whether this absolutely implies that both “sides” have to agree on an independent arbiter, i.e. a trustworthy source of information, I leave to others to puzzle out, but without this basis of shared facts it seems to me impossible to achieve what russell, and so many others of good will, wish and need to achieve.

  972. I feel humbled and a bit foolish about my snarky addendum @09.56 to russell’s 09.05. He, as so often, was actually trying for something constructive, a way forward, as he makes even clearer @11.49. The issue of how to follow Janie’s late friend’s mantra about making it safe for the other side to hear what you have to say, is key, but other than trying to be respectful (which I try not always successfully to do), I have no suggestions. But when russell says:
    What do People Who Are Not Like Me need in order to feel safe enough to even have a reasonable – by which I mean fact- and evidence-based – conversation about this stuff?
    I can only say yet again, that the crux is in finding a way for all “sides” to accept the concept and definition of evidence-based facts, so that they then have the ability to proceed from those facts which both “sides” agree on. Whether this absolutely implies that both “sides” have to agree on an independent arbiter, i.e. a trustworthy source of information, I leave to others to puzzle out, but without this basis of shared facts it seems to me impossible to achieve what russell, and so many others of good will, wish and need to achieve.

  973. GFTNC, no worries. I often find myself making snarky addendums to my own comments, even if only in my head.
    Agreed, we need at least to have a shared set of simple factual information.

  974. GFTNC, no worries. I often find myself making snarky addendums to my own comments, even if only in my head.
    Agreed, we need at least to have a shared set of simple factual information.

  977. Not OT, please bear with me:
    I just read an interesting article about how insanity can be contagious, via an inflammatory infection. Briefly: the blood/brain barrier is not inviolate after all, and immune responses to infection can get into the brain and muck up normal brain function by treating brain cells as infection agents, which can cause various types of psychoses.
    So here’s the thing. RW insanity/nascent fascism isn’t limited to the US; we’ve seen it break out all over the world, from Australia to the Philippines to Brazil.
    Also, humans seem to descend into this type of massive dementia at least once or twice a century. We get pogroms, holocausts, enormous wars, genocides, etc.
    For a while, I thought that cyclical suicidal impulse was Mother Nature’s way of culling the human species, since each outbreak reduces the world population by a couple percentage points. Some strange kind of contagious viral meme to “Destroy everything!”
    Now I wonder if insanity contagious-by-way-of-inflammatory-infection isn’t part of it, too; maybe it’s the mechanism for nature’s way of reducing our species’ numbers.
    What’s happening in the world?
    Higher incidence of mental illnesses, with a resultant higher incidence of drug cocktails to treat it.
    Higher incidences of drug-resistant infectious diseases.
    Higher mobility, bringing disease vectors together.
    Rapidly increasing effects of GCC, which is triggering epic migrations and exacerbating fear and threat-response. All are additional stressors on brain function.
    It does make me wonder.
    And if there *is* some kind of meme-virus mechanism happening now, I don’t know what we do about it. The issue isn’t how to reach out to irrational people; it’s how to deal with a global suicidal impulse mediated biologically.

  978. Not OT, please bear with me:
    I just read an interesting article about how insanity can be contagious, via an inflammatory infection. Briefly: the blood/brain barrier is not inviolate after all, and immune responses to infection can get into the brain and muck up normal brain function by treating brain cells as infection agents, which can cause various types of psychoses.
    So here’s the thing. RW insanity/nascent fascism isn’t limited to the US; we’ve seen it break out all over the world, from Australia to the Philippines to Brazil.
    Also, humans seem to descend into this type of massive dementia at least once or twice a century. We get pogroms, holocausts, enormous wars, genocides, etc.
    For a while, I thought that cyclical suicidal impulse was Mother Nature’s way of culling the human species, since each outbreak reduces the world population by a couple percentage points. Some strange kind of contagious viral meme to “Destroy everything!”
    Now I wonder if insanity contagious-by-way-of-inflammatory-infection isn’t part of it, too; maybe it’s the mechanism for nature’s way of reducing our species’ numbers.
    What’s happening in the world?
    Higher incidence of mental illnesses, with a resultant higher incidence of drug cocktails to treat it.
    Higher incidences of drug-resistant infectious diseases.
    Higher mobility, bringing disease vectors together.
    Rapidly increasing effects of GCC, which is triggering epic migrations and exacerbating fear and threat-response. All are additional stressors on brain function.
    It does make me wonder.
    And if there *is* some kind of meme-virus mechanism happening now, I don’t know what we do about it. The issue isn’t how to reach out to irrational people; it’s how to deal with a global suicidal impulse mediated biologically.

  979. conservatism is conservatism, everywhere – religion, politics, art, science, in all things. and all conservatism looks the same: fear/resistance of change, fear/resistance of Others, fear/resistance of anything that doesn’t match an ideal that can always be found in the past.
    it would be great if we could all agree on the same facts. but, again, there are industries and institutions devoted to making sure conservatives get the set of facts, or synthetic fact-flavored information that make them feel right about things.
    yes, the left has a similar industry. but the conservatives have a huge head start and they seem to take to it better than the left does.
    it’s only going to get worse.

  980. conservatism is conservatism, everywhere – religion, politics, art, science, in all things. and all conservatism looks the same: fear/resistance of change, fear/resistance of Others, fear/resistance of anything that doesn’t match an ideal that can always be found in the past.
    it would be great if we could all agree on the same facts. but, again, there are industries and institutions devoted to making sure conservatives get the set of facts, or synthetic fact-flavored information that make them feel right about things.
    yes, the left has a similar industry. but the conservatives have a huge head start and they seem to take to it better than the left does.
    it’s only going to get worse.

  981. The left cannot use the same media tactics that the right does in order to beat the right. The Middle Way victories of the ’90s prolonged the grip of Reaganomics and market worship for an additional two decades past the point where we should have been adapting and fixing the economy.
    The LW media resistance needs its own model not based in fear.

  982. The left cannot use the same media tactics that the right does in order to beat the right. The Middle Way victories of the ’90s prolonged the grip of Reaganomics and market worship for an additional two decades past the point where we should have been adapting and fixing the economy.
    The LW media resistance needs its own model not based in fear.

  983. yes, the left has a similar industry. but the conservatives have a huge head start and they seem to take to it better than the left does.
    I am old enough to remember when the left did it damn well. And as a result ended up with things like enthusiasm for (and expressed desire to implement) things like “Mao Zedong Thought”.
    The left does less of it currently. But there’s nothing inherent there. Pat yourselves on the back for having, even if perhaps only temporarily, gotten away from it.

  984. yes, the left has a similar industry. but the conservatives have a huge head start and they seem to take to it better than the left does.
    I am old enough to remember when the left did it damn well. And as a result ended up with things like enthusiasm for (and expressed desire to implement) things like “Mao Zedong Thought”.
    The left does less of it currently. But there’s nothing inherent there. Pat yourselves on the back for having, even if perhaps only temporarily, gotten away from it.

  985. The Middle Way victories of the ’90s prolonged the grip of Reaganomics and market worship for an additional two decades past the point where we should have been adapting and fixing the economy.
    Impossible for me to overstate how strongly I agree with this.
    The LW media resistance needs its own model not based in fear.
    And, this. And, as an exercise in self-reflection and candor, I would add also not based on pointing and laughing.
    It’s easy, for me, to indulge in that, as a more or less “WTF now!?!” or “You have to be kidding me!!!” response. Like, when the Best Wall Ever is defeated by a Sawzall. But, likely not the most useful in the context of dialog, or attempted dialog.
    I am old enough to remember when the left did it damn well.
    That’s a valid point. Or, at least they did it with great gusto and sometimes bombs.
    But the left – the actual left, the folks who actually were acolytes of Mao, or more reasonably, Marcuse – was never as successful with it as their modern-day RW counterparts.
    Personally, FWIW, I’d say the high point was the Port Huron statement, and it kind of descended into futility from there over the span of a few years. I don’t see a lasting institutional impact that matches what the RW has achieved, from (let’s say) Goldwater to now.
    They used to be the crazy uncle nutjobs in the attic. Now they run the place.

  986. The Middle Way victories of the ’90s prolonged the grip of Reaganomics and market worship for an additional two decades past the point where we should have been adapting and fixing the economy.
    Impossible for me to overstate how strongly I agree with this.
    The LW media resistance needs its own model not based in fear.
    And, this. And, as an exercise in self-reflection and candor, I would add also not based on pointing and laughing.
    It’s easy, for me, to indulge in that, as a more or less “WTF now!?!” or “You have to be kidding me!!!” response. Like, when the Best Wall Ever is defeated by a Sawzall. But, likely not the most useful in the context of dialog, or attempted dialog.
    I am old enough to remember when the left did it damn well.
    That’s a valid point. Or, at least they did it with great gusto and sometimes bombs.
    But the left – the actual left, the folks who actually were acolytes of Mao, or more reasonably, Marcuse – was never as successful with it as their modern-day RW counterparts.
    Personally, FWIW, I’d say the high point was the Port Huron statement, and it kind of descended into futility from there over the span of a few years. I don’t see a lasting institutional impact that matches what the RW has achieved, from (let’s say) Goldwater to now.
    They used to be the crazy uncle nutjobs in the attic. Now they run the place.

  987. I’ll say that Warren is the candidate who is probably closest to my own values and priorities, and I’ll also say that I almost wish she hadn’t run. Because she’s having a good race, and she has a reasonable chance of being the nominee.
    And she is going to scare the crap out of People Who Are Not Like Me.

    this.
    her health care plan, now that she’s fleshed it out, scares me. i know it has zero chance of becoming reality, even if the Dems get the Senate in 2020 (ex the ACA only barely happened, even with a Dem supermajority). but, whew. that’s some kinda fantasy.

  988. I’ll say that Warren is the candidate who is probably closest to my own values and priorities, and I’ll also say that I almost wish she hadn’t run. Because she’s having a good race, and she has a reasonable chance of being the nominee.
    And she is going to scare the crap out of People Who Are Not Like Me.

    this.
    her health care plan, now that she’s fleshed it out, scares me. i know it has zero chance of becoming reality, even if the Dems get the Senate in 2020 (ex the ACA only barely happened, even with a Dem supermajority). but, whew. that’s some kinda fantasy.

  989. lemme be more specific – it’s not the health care plan that scares me, it’s how she says she’ll pay for it that scares me. her tax scheme is going to grind huge amounts of cash off of the ultra-wealthy and corporations: an unsustainable amount, it seems. and once you’ve ground Bezos and Gates and Buffet down to mere millionaires, they aren’t going to be funding anything. and we don’t make many billionaires.
    am i wrong?

  990. lemme be more specific – it’s not the health care plan that scares me, it’s how she says she’ll pay for it that scares me. her tax scheme is going to grind huge amounts of cash off of the ultra-wealthy and corporations: an unsustainable amount, it seems. and once you’ve ground Bezos and Gates and Buffet down to mere millionaires, they aren’t going to be funding anything. and we don’t make many billionaires.
    am i wrong?

  991. am i wrong?
    Nope. But it’s not ever going to pass. I guess the idea is that she will move the Overton window, which would be good if she’s electable.

  992. am i wrong?
    Nope. But it’s not ever going to pass. I guess the idea is that she will move the Overton window, which would be good if she’s electable.

  993. Frankly, Buttigieg’s Medicare-for-all-who-want-it seems a lot more viable. Both financially and as something which might actually pass. Guess that’s me being a conservative again….

  994. Frankly, Buttigieg’s Medicare-for-all-who-want-it seems a lot more viable. Both financially and as something which might actually pass. Guess that’s me being a conservative again….

  995. I’m fine with Buttigieg’s healthcare plan. I’m a little bit put off by Buttigieg himself, although I loved him at first. He gives off an entitled white guy vibe in a way that annoys me a bit (appealing to the white working class, without acknowledging that many of the working class are not white and are not male).
    I’ll fall in love with him immediately if he wins the nomination though. He’s smart and interesting, and he has a lot of personal grace and charm. That part is undeniable.
    To be honest, like JanieM, I could get excited about, and certainly vote for, most in the D race. I am a reliable D voter, and I have a Virginia election on Tuesday. I will, of course, be there, and have done some canvassing (although should have done more – have been a bit busy lately, inconveniently). Unfortunately, I have some scheduling conflicts on election day, so I can’t work the tables or be a poll watcher as is my usual routine.

  996. I’m fine with Buttigieg’s healthcare plan. I’m a little bit put off by Buttigieg himself, although I loved him at first. He gives off an entitled white guy vibe in a way that annoys me a bit (appealing to the white working class, without acknowledging that many of the working class are not white and are not male).
    I’ll fall in love with him immediately if he wins the nomination though. He’s smart and interesting, and he has a lot of personal grace and charm. That part is undeniable.
    To be honest, like JanieM, I could get excited about, and certainly vote for, most in the D race. I am a reliable D voter, and I have a Virginia election on Tuesday. I will, of course, be there, and have done some canvassing (although should have done more – have been a bit busy lately, inconveniently). Unfortunately, I have some scheduling conflicts on election day, so I can’t work the tables or be a poll watcher as is my usual routine.

  997. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/01/jeff-bezos-would-pay-over-6-billion-a-year-in-taxes-under-warren-plan.html
    Bezos is worth $110 billion.
    Gates is worth $90 billion.
    Buffet is worth $87 billion.
    Let me know when any of the three are ground down to mere millionaires by Warren’s 6% wealth tax.
    Like any good Stalinist or unAmerican whistleblower, I own shares in Berkshire Hathaway and Microsoft, out of pure hatred for American capitalism and the American way of life.
    I trade Amazon, but not lately because Bezos, in various ways, fucks his warehouse workers and his delivery drivers and so I’m standing aside for now, not that my meager investment amounts to a hill of beans in the overall pigfuckery that is Bezo’s all-American self-interest.
    Presumably, the wealth tax will alleviate all other Americans’ spending on healthcare. What is the figure that everyone else would save on their healthcare needs, and why can’t money that be added back into the total balance of national wealth, after subtracting the other three’s reduced net wealth?
    This leaves out of course the entire clusterfuck of getting anything enacted at all, without demoralizing and paralyzing tradeoffs, not to mention, since mass murder is verboten, the conservative movement sabotaging every fucking thing along the way, whether in the majority or not, and let alone America’s utter willful incompetence in running something along the lines of France’s or Spain’s very successful, as these schemes go, single payer health programs, which aren’t quite that, of course, but enough so that Americans are moving to both countries because it beats the buggery of America.
    Leaving aside also that p looks to me like he has a winning hand in 2020 on account of the fact that 47% of Americans are irredeemable traitorous assholes.
    My point is, though, don’t help Marty make up errant numbers about Dem plans.

  998. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/01/jeff-bezos-would-pay-over-6-billion-a-year-in-taxes-under-warren-plan.html
    Bezos is worth $110 billion.
    Gates is worth $90 billion.
    Buffet is worth $87 billion.
    Let me know when any of the three are ground down to mere millionaires by Warren’s 6% wealth tax.
    Like any good Stalinist or unAmerican whistleblower, I own shares in Berkshire Hathaway and Microsoft, out of pure hatred for American capitalism and the American way of life.
    I trade Amazon, but not lately because Bezos, in various ways, fucks his warehouse workers and his delivery drivers and so I’m standing aside for now, not that my meager investment amounts to a hill of beans in the overall pigfuckery that is Bezo’s all-American self-interest.
    Presumably, the wealth tax will alleviate all other Americans’ spending on healthcare. What is the figure that everyone else would save on their healthcare needs, and why can’t money that be added back into the total balance of national wealth, after subtracting the other three’s reduced net wealth?
    This leaves out of course the entire clusterfuck of getting anything enacted at all, without demoralizing and paralyzing tradeoffs, not to mention, since mass murder is verboten, the conservative movement sabotaging every fucking thing along the way, whether in the majority or not, and let alone America’s utter willful incompetence in running something along the lines of France’s or Spain’s very successful, as these schemes go, single payer health programs, which aren’t quite that, of course, but enough so that Americans are moving to both countries because it beats the buggery of America.
    Leaving aside also that p looks to me like he has a winning hand in 2020 on account of the fact that 47% of Americans are irredeemable traitorous assholes.
    My point is, though, don’t help Marty make up errant numbers about Dem plans.

  999. What do People Who Are Not Like Me need in order to feel safe enough to even have a reasonable – by which I mean fact- and evidence-based – conversation about this stuff?
    A chicken in every pot.
    A russell on every street corner.

  1000. What do People Who Are Not Like Me need in order to feel safe enough to even have a reasonable – by which I mean fact- and evidence-based – conversation about this stuff?
    A chicken in every pot.
    A russell on every street corner.

  1001. Americans are moving to both countries because it beats the buggery of America.
    The theme of my Facebook ad stream these days is “retire abroad”.

  1002. Americans are moving to both countries because it beats the buggery of America.
    The theme of my Facebook ad stream these days is “retire abroad”.

  1003. Frankly, Buttigieg’s Medicare-for-all-who-want-it seems a lot more viable
    This is (to coin a phrase) baloney.
    A more polite rejoinder here.
    Check out links provided therein.
    Thanks.
    fixed your link — wj

  1004. Frankly, Buttigieg’s Medicare-for-all-who-want-it seems a lot more viable
    This is (to coin a phrase) baloney.
    A more polite rejoinder here.
    Check out links provided therein.
    Thanks.
    fixed your link — wj

  1007. I am not focused enough to address the health care topic adequately. But my understanding is that we spend a lot more per capita than other developed countries that actually have better outcomes by some measures. So I find it hard to believe that we can’t have a better system without turning the billionaires into paupers. I have second-hand knowledge of the regulation of health insurance, and there are plenty of stories to be told about people who got a handle on how to turn the health care system into the goose that laid the golden egg. It doesn’t *have* to be that way, as a couple of other developed countries with better systems than ours have shown. Well, that’s a stretch. We don’t actually have a “system,” we have a series of interlocked cash cows and boondoggles.

  1008. I am not focused enough to address the health care topic adequately. But my understanding is that we spend a lot more per capita than other developed countries that actually have better outcomes by some measures. So I find it hard to believe that we can’t have a better system without turning the billionaires into paupers. I have second-hand knowledge of the regulation of health insurance, and there are plenty of stories to be told about people who got a handle on how to turn the health care system into the goose that laid the golden egg. It doesn’t *have* to be that way, as a couple of other developed countries with better systems than ours have shown. Well, that’s a stretch. We don’t actually have a “system,” we have a series of interlocked cash cows and boondoggles.

  1009. Leaving aside also that p looks to me like he has a winning hand in 2020 on account of the fact that 47% of Americans are irredeemable traitorous assholes.
    You’d probably have a solid case for 27%. You might even be able to make one for something in the 30s. But 47%? For that you’d have to classify that way anyone who voted for Trump out of ignorance (and you just know a fairly large segment of our voting population, on both sides, qualifies). Which seems like a stretch.

  1010. Leaving aside also that p looks to me like he has a winning hand in 2020 on account of the fact that 47% of Americans are irredeemable traitorous assholes.
    You’d probably have a solid case for 27%. You might even be able to make one for something in the 30s. But 47%? For that you’d have to classify that way anyone who voted for Trump out of ignorance (and you just know a fairly large segment of our voting population, on both sides, qualifies). Which seems like a stretch.

  1013. Over the course of our history, there have been waves of progressive discontent that broke through a strangling conservative political dominance: Reconstruction; civil service reform, anti-trust, food and drug act, the 19th Amendment….but by far the standout was the New Deal. FDR and the New Deal Democrats briefly, all too briefly, broke through the fear, and ushered in a new and rather radical liberal polity.
    The problem might be that it succeeded all too well, and those who got fat and happy as a result of the public policy revolution (white workers, white middle class) came to take it for granted, and turned to those who spoke to other fears….deep and dark ones.
    Maybe one day they will wake up.
    They have nothing to fear, but fear itself.

  1014. Over the course of our history, there have been waves of progressive discontent that broke through a strangling conservative political dominance: Reconstruction; civil service reform, anti-trust, food and drug act, the 19th Amendment….but by far the standout was the New Deal. FDR and the New Deal Democrats briefly, all too briefly, broke through the fear, and ushered in a new and rather radical liberal polity.
    The problem might be that it succeeded all too well, and those who got fat and happy as a result of the public policy revolution (white workers, white middle class) came to take it for granted, and turned to those who spoke to other fears….deep and dark ones.
    Maybe one day they will wake up.
    They have nothing to fear, but fear itself.

  1015. This is (to coin a phrase) baloney.
    A more polite rejoinder here.
    OK, I read it. Let me just say I find it unconvincing. Frankly, I don’t see the problem with making Medicare an option for everyone, but letting them decide not to take it. It may be a dumb decision, that’s a different discussion. But letting them have the possibility will substantially reduce the resistance to it. Do you doubt that? (Never mind how lacking in merit you consider that resistance to changing what they have to be.) That’s really the critical question: can you reduce the resistance sufficiently to get something passed?
    And, if Medicare is in fact better than what they have, pretty much everybody will end up there anyway. Gradually. Consider it the half a loaf that is better than no bread.

  1016. This is (to coin a phrase) baloney.
    A more polite rejoinder here.
    OK, I read it. Let me just say I find it unconvincing. Frankly, I don’t see the problem with making Medicare an option for everyone, but letting them decide not to take it. It may be a dumb decision, that’s a different discussion. But letting them have the possibility will substantially reduce the resistance to it. Do you doubt that? (Never mind how lacking in merit you consider that resistance to changing what they have to be.) That’s really the critical question: can you reduce the resistance sufficiently to get something passed?
    And, if Medicare is in fact better than what they have, pretty much everybody will end up there anyway. Gradually. Consider it the half a loaf that is better than no bread.

  1019. me: as a couple of other developed countries with better systems than ours have shown.
    Meant to say “a couple of dozen other developed countries. Obviously a ballpark figure.

  1020. me: as a couple of other developed countries with better systems than ours have shown.
    Meant to say “a couple of dozen other developed countries. Obviously a ballpark figure.

  1023. wj,
    thanks for fixing the link.
    Buttigeig’s health care plan is deeply flawed.
    But letting them have the possibility will substantially reduce the resistance to it.
    This is wrongheaded political analysis. Opposition to health care reform is not driven by regular folks….it is driven by very powerful interests who are, to put it mildly, robbing the public blind.
    more here.

  1024. wj,
    thanks for fixing the link.
    Buttigeig’s health care plan is deeply flawed.
    But letting them have the possibility will substantially reduce the resistance to it.
    This is wrongheaded political analysis. Opposition to health care reform is not driven by regular folks….it is driven by very powerful interests who are, to put it mildly, robbing the public blind.
    more here.

  1025. I have no issue – zero – with the idea of a single payer system. And I have no issue with increasing taxes on billionaires.
    As a point of reference, if you made $100k a year, it would take you 10,000 years to earn a billion dollars. 10,000 years ago the Holocene epoch was just beginning. It’s not “a lot” of money, it’s an ocean of money, an atmosphere of money. It’s so much money that money becomes irrelevant. At that level money is just background noise.
    My qualm with the plan to move to single payer in a time frame less than, say, 20 years, is that it will be a profoundly complicated task. Even if the execution is perfect, which it will not be, it will be profoundly disruptive.
    It is extraordinarily hard to do large and complicated things because it is close to impossible to anticipate all of the effects of whatever it is you are doing in advance. You have to allow people and institutions space to absorb and adjust to change.
    Planning and implementing big changes in complex systems is really hard. That can’t be an excuse to do nothing, because that also tends to turn out badly. But you have to be careful not to outrun your headlights.

  1026. I have no issue – zero – with the idea of a single payer system. And I have no issue with increasing taxes on billionaires.
    As a point of reference, if you made $100k a year, it would take you 10,000 years to earn a billion dollars. 10,000 years ago the Holocene epoch was just beginning. It’s not “a lot” of money, it’s an ocean of money, an atmosphere of money. It’s so much money that money becomes irrelevant. At that level money is just background noise.
    My qualm with the plan to move to single payer in a time frame less than, say, 20 years, is that it will be a profoundly complicated task. Even if the execution is perfect, which it will not be, it will be profoundly disruptive.
    It is extraordinarily hard to do large and complicated things because it is close to impossible to anticipate all of the effects of whatever it is you are doing in advance. You have to allow people and institutions space to absorb and adjust to change.
    Planning and implementing big changes in complex systems is really hard. That can’t be an excuse to do nothing, because that also tends to turn out badly. But you have to be careful not to outrun your headlights.

  1027. This is wrongheaded political analysis. Opposition to health care reform is not driven by regular folks….it is driven by very powerful interests who are, to put it mildly, robbing the public blind.
    That’s whose fighting the change. But if you insist that you are going to, as regular folks will see it, “take away the plan they have”, you are putting a weapon in the hands of those fighting the change.
    It’s not that they won’t fight any change at all, because of course they will. It’s how easy/hard you make it for them to win the fight. And, from what I can see, an approach which doesn’t appear to take something away will fare far better than on which does.

  1028. This is wrongheaded political analysis. Opposition to health care reform is not driven by regular folks….it is driven by very powerful interests who are, to put it mildly, robbing the public blind.
    That’s whose fighting the change. But if you insist that you are going to, as regular folks will see it, “take away the plan they have”, you are putting a weapon in the hands of those fighting the change.
    It’s not that they won’t fight any change at all, because of course they will. It’s how easy/hard you make it for them to win the fight. And, from what I can see, an approach which doesn’t appear to take something away will fare far better than on which does.

  1029. more here.

    Obviously, the real point of constantly asking Warren about funding Medicare for All is to get her on the record saying that she plans to raise taxes.

    alternately, to get to to explain how she’d fund M4A. it’s kind of an important point.

  1030. more here.

    Obviously, the real point of constantly asking Warren about funding Medicare for All is to get her on the record saying that she plans to raise taxes.

    alternately, to get to to explain how she’d fund M4A. it’s kind of an important point.

  1033. I would say that the job of President doesn’t require knowing the answers to all the detailed policy stuff. But it does require having staff who do. And who can help you put it, at a high level, in terms voters** can understand.
    Getting into details of what percentage taxes would rise for each income level is ridiculous. But acknowledging that some taxes somewhere must go up is only realistic. Just as arguing that the tax increase will be offset by pay increases due to companies saving on health care plans requires some acknowledgement that frequently companies will just pocket the additional profit — unless the implementing legislation forces them to pass it along to their workers. (A detail that the candidates seem to ignore.)
    ** And thus Congressmen, who aren’t notably brighter.

  1034. I would say that the job of President doesn’t require knowing the answers to all the detailed policy stuff. But it does require having staff who do. And who can help you put it, at a high level, in terms voters** can understand.
    Getting into details of what percentage taxes would rise for each income level is ridiculous. But acknowledging that some taxes somewhere must go up is only realistic. Just as arguing that the tax increase will be offset by pay increases due to companies saving on health care plans requires some acknowledgement that frequently companies will just pocket the additional profit — unless the implementing legislation forces them to pass it along to their workers. (A detail that the candidates seem to ignore.)
    ** And thus Congressmen, who aren’t notably brighter.

  1035. (A detail that the candidates seem to ignore.)
    This is ignorant. Have you even bothered to read Sanders’ plan?
    it’s kind of an important point.
    For Republicans and deficit scolds, yes. For others, not so much.
    There is a reason Warren called that question a Republican talking point. Because it is.
    Planning and implementing big changes in complex systems is really hard.
    That’s the sausage making part. It can be done. The question is this: Is the proposed policy “outrunning the headlights”? Well, that’s a DIFFERENT question. Let’s not confuse the two. I say it should be done and it can be done.
    SO WHY NOT DO IT?

  1036. (A detail that the candidates seem to ignore.)
    This is ignorant. Have you even bothered to read Sanders’ plan?
    it’s kind of an important point.
    For Republicans and deficit scolds, yes. For others, not so much.
    There is a reason Warren called that question a Republican talking point. Because it is.
    Planning and implementing big changes in complex systems is really hard.
    That’s the sausage making part. It can be done. The question is this: Is the proposed policy “outrunning the headlights”? Well, that’s a DIFFERENT question. Let’s not confuse the two. I say it should be done and it can be done.
    SO WHY NOT DO IT?

  1037. Because it is.
    asking that she demonstrates that her plan is feasible is no more a “Republican talking point” than “Can we afford this new car?” is.
    if she wants my vote, she needs to show that she knows WTF she’s talking about.
    YMMV, clearly.

  1038. Because it is.
    asking that she demonstrates that her plan is feasible is no more a “Republican talking point” than “Can we afford this new car?” is.
    if she wants my vote, she needs to show that she knows WTF she’s talking about.
    YMMV, clearly.

  1039. asking that she demonstrates that her plan is feasible is no more a “Republican talking point” than “Can we afford this new car?” is.
    Yeah, sure. And next you’ll be admonishing us that the federal budget is just like a family’s checkbook.
    No GOP talking point there!
    We already “afford” the most expensive healthcare system in the world. Therefore, it is not a question of “affordability”. It is a question of politics.
    In the beancounter sense, M4A is a slam dunk. Politically it is a hard lift (cf wj).
    So why, exactly, is this the question that is apparently so important to you?
    It is a question that is, shall we say, of limited use.
    Again: Read the Krugman piece.

  1040. asking that she demonstrates that her plan is feasible is no more a “Republican talking point” than “Can we afford this new car?” is.
    Yeah, sure. And next you’ll be admonishing us that the federal budget is just like a family’s checkbook.
    No GOP talking point there!
    We already “afford” the most expensive healthcare system in the world. Therefore, it is not a question of “affordability”. It is a question of politics.
    In the beancounter sense, M4A is a slam dunk. Politically it is a hard lift (cf wj).
    So why, exactly, is this the question that is apparently so important to you?
    It is a question that is, shall we say, of limited use.
    Again: Read the Krugman piece.

  1041. No GOP talking point there!
    pity the poor strawman.
    So why, exactly, is this the question that is apparently so important to you?
    i’ve already explained that.
    Again: Read the Krugman piece.
    i’ve read Krugman’s pieces on her plan. he likes her plan in an aspirational sense, but doesn’t endorse it (in part because it will never pass). that’s pretty much where i am.

  1042. No GOP talking point there!
    pity the poor strawman.
    So why, exactly, is this the question that is apparently so important to you?
    i’ve already explained that.
    Again: Read the Krugman piece.
    i’ve read Krugman’s pieces on her plan. he likes her plan in an aspirational sense, but doesn’t endorse it (in part because it will never pass). that’s pretty much where i am.

  1045. “that’s pretty much where i am.”
    OK….so why all the angst about “affordability”? Under present conditions (Mitch) Buttigeig’s plan has no chance either.
    So there you go.
    oh, crap…runaway italics. apologies.

  1046. “that’s pretty much where i am.”
    OK….so why all the angst about “affordability”? Under present conditions (Mitch) Buttigeig’s plan has no chance either.
    So there you go.
    oh, crap…runaway italics. apologies.

  1047. OK….so why all the angst about “affordability”?
    as i’ve said: i want to see if she knows what she’s talking about, if her plan makes sense.

  1048. OK….so why all the angst about “affordability”?
    as i’ve said: i want to see if she knows what she’s talking about, if her plan makes sense.

  1049. We already “afford” the most expensive healthcare system in the world. Therefore, it is not a question of “affordability”. It is a question of politics.
    This.

  1050. We already “afford” the most expensive healthcare system in the world. Therefore, it is not a question of “affordability”. It is a question of politics.
    This.

  1051. “Know”? Know? Some people acquire a great deal of expertise in a field as a result of deep and long study….they are “knowing”.
    People disagree about issues, well, they disagree on just about everything. Positions may be correct, or incorrect. Some policies may be judged to be better than others, for reasons…but “knowing”? Does Buttigeig or Biden “know” more about health care policy than Warren or Sanders? Really? Just how far into the epistemological weeds do you care to go here?
    As I understand your position, you are asserting that M4A is politically unpossible. That may be so. But that is hardly the same as “not knowing” about health care policy.
    We have a deeply dysfunctional system that is a major PinA for most and unavailable to tens of millions. It is a travesty. Band-aids won’t do it. If somebody like Warren gets elected with a Dem senate and has to settle for whatever Sinema and Manchin can stomach, then so be it.
    But we are far from that point. IMHO it is delusional to believe that your voters will get all excited about half measures. Aspirations play a big and important role in politics.

  1052. “Know”? Know? Some people acquire a great deal of expertise in a field as a result of deep and long study….they are “knowing”.
    People disagree about issues, well, they disagree on just about everything. Positions may be correct, or incorrect. Some policies may be judged to be better than others, for reasons…but “knowing”? Does Buttigeig or Biden “know” more about health care policy than Warren or Sanders? Really? Just how far into the epistemological weeds do you care to go here?
    As I understand your position, you are asserting that M4A is politically unpossible. That may be so. But that is hardly the same as “not knowing” about health care policy.
    We have a deeply dysfunctional system that is a major PinA for most and unavailable to tens of millions. It is a travesty. Band-aids won’t do it. If somebody like Warren gets elected with a Dem senate and has to settle for whatever Sinema and Manchin can stomach, then so be it.
    But we are far from that point. IMHO it is delusional to believe that your voters will get all excited about half measures. Aspirations play a big and important role in politics.

  1055. You’d probably have a solid case for 27%. You might even be able to make one for something in the 30s. But 47%?
    Did you see this morning’s NYTimes opinion poll from several of the important swing states? Among likely voters, Trump beats Warren or Sanders, loses to Biden. Those are popular vote results. Large EC win over Warren or Sanders, large EC loss to Biden.

  1056. You’d probably have a solid case for 27%. You might even be able to make one for something in the 30s. But 47%?
    Did you see this morning’s NYTimes opinion poll from several of the important swing states? Among likely voters, Trump beats Warren or Sanders, loses to Biden. Those are popular vote results. Large EC win over Warren or Sanders, large EC loss to Biden.

  1057. We already “afford” the most expensive healthcare system in the world. Therefore, it is not a question of “affordability”. It is a question of politics.
    Granted, politics are a major factor. But “affordability” isn’t really irrelevant. It’s relevant because who is paying will change, at least under some approaches. It may be possible to mandate that money move from those currently paying to whoever will now pay. But you can just say “it will cost less” and wave away how the money flows. Because, if you fail to make that flow of cash happen, then whoever the new payer will be needs some other way to afford the money being now spent by them.

  1058. We already “afford” the most expensive healthcare system in the world. Therefore, it is not a question of “affordability”. It is a question of politics.
    Granted, politics are a major factor. But “affordability” isn’t really irrelevant. It’s relevant because who is paying will change, at least under some approaches. It may be possible to mandate that money move from those currently paying to whoever will now pay. But you can just say “it will cost less” and wave away how the money flows. Because, if you fail to make that flow of cash happen, then whoever the new payer will be needs some other way to afford the money being now spent by them.

  1059. Did you see this morning’s NYTimes opinion poll from several of the important swing states? Among likely voters, Trump beats Warren or Sanders, loses to Biden.
    The NYT isn’t something I’m signed up for. But from the preview, it doesn’t appear to conflict with my view.

  1060. Did you see this morning’s NYTimes opinion poll from several of the important swing states? Among likely voters, Trump beats Warren or Sanders, loses to Biden.
    The NYT isn’t something I’m signed up for. But from the preview, it doesn’t appear to conflict with my view.

  1061. Aspirations play a big and important role in politics.
    of course.
    NYTimes opinion poll from several of the important swing states?
    here’s a fun pair of Trump v Warren results from today’s Michigan polls.

    NY Times/Siena   Warren 39, Trump 46 (Trump +7)
Emerson          Warren 54, Trump 46 (Warren +8)

  1062. Aspirations play a big and important role in politics.
    of course.
    NYTimes opinion poll from several of the important swing states?
    here’s a fun pair of Trump v Warren results from today’s Michigan polls.

    NY Times/Siena   Warren 39, Trump 46 (Trump +7)
Emerson          Warren 54, Trump 46 (Warren +8)

  1063. Those are popular vote results. Large EC win over Warren or Sanders, large EC loss to Biden.
    I can see an outcome whereby Rump wins the EC with the worst-by-far popular-vote performance of anyone to do so, losing massively in many states while winning by very small margins in many others.
    Woe to you, oh Earth and Sea.

  1064. Those are popular vote results. Large EC win over Warren or Sanders, large EC loss to Biden.
    I can see an outcome whereby Rump wins the EC with the worst-by-far popular-vote performance of anyone to do so, losing massively in many states while winning by very small margins in many others.
    Woe to you, oh Earth and Sea.

  1065. It’s relevant because who is paying will change, at least under some approaches.
    If that is your one big criteria for assessing any public policy, then OK. But I would ask that you put that question at the top of your list regarding ANY policy…because that’s what politics is about…who get what.
    It may be possible to mandate that money move from those currently paying to whoever will now pay.
    Again, that is a political question, not a policy question.
    But you can just say “it will cost less” and wave away how the money flows.
    Why not? We wave that concern away every time we pass the defense appropriations bill, or a GOP tax cut for the rich. How do these fiscal moves always get exempted from this big concern?
    Because, if you fail to make that flow of cash happen, then whoever the new payer will be needs some other way to afford the money being now spent by them.
    I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

  1066. It’s relevant because who is paying will change, at least under some approaches.
    If that is your one big criteria for assessing any public policy, then OK. But I would ask that you put that question at the top of your list regarding ANY policy…because that’s what politics is about…who get what.
    It may be possible to mandate that money move from those currently paying to whoever will now pay.
    Again, that is a political question, not a policy question.
    But you can just say “it will cost less” and wave away how the money flows.
    Why not? We wave that concern away every time we pass the defense appropriations bill, or a GOP tax cut for the rich. How do these fiscal moves always get exempted from this big concern?
    Because, if you fail to make that flow of cash happen, then whoever the new payer will be needs some other way to afford the money being now spent by them.
    I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

  1067. But you can just say “it will cost less” and wave away how the money flows.
    And you can’t just waive away the essential fact that all of the other relatively rich nations on this planet deliver, as a matter of public policy, better health care for a great deal less cost.
    If you could get on board with the principle, then we can argue about the specifics.

  1068. But you can just say “it will cost less” and wave away how the money flows.
    And you can’t just waive away the essential fact that all of the other relatively rich nations on this planet deliver, as a matter of public policy, better health care for a great deal less cost.
    If you could get on board with the principle, then we can argue about the specifics.

  1069. Large EC win over Warren or Sanders, large EC loss to Biden.
    As I’ve said before, Warren would be my true choice, and if actually elected would (I think) be a genuinely transformational President of the US for the better, if enabled to be so by Congress
    But if the polls above are actually correct (a big if, as cleek@11.28 points out) then I guess I have to reluctantly concede that Biden might be a better nomination, unless one of the others is able to reverse this recognition/affection deficit bigly and fast.

  1070. Large EC win over Warren or Sanders, large EC loss to Biden.
    As I’ve said before, Warren would be my true choice, and if actually elected would (I think) be a genuinely transformational President of the US for the better, if enabled to be so by Congress
    But if the polls above are actually correct (a big if, as cleek@11.28 points out) then I guess I have to reluctantly concede that Biden might be a better nomination, unless one of the others is able to reverse this recognition/affection deficit bigly and fast.

  1071. And you can’t just waive away the essential fact that all of the other relatively rich nations on this planet deliver, as a matter of public policy, better health care for a great deal less cost.
    True, but it seems to me that there is an important distinction here. Those systems were put in place at a time when the cost and complexity of health care was vastly less, there were not huge financial interests in having a lot of this private, and many patients paid out of pocket.
    It’s much easier to go from that to a national system than it would be to do so in the US today. The political environment is just different.
    I like the idea of single-payer, but given the political difficulties I’m not at all sure we should be trying to go down that road. After all, Obamacare only went into effect in 2014, and has been the target of Republican sabotage ever since, so we haven’t really seen how well it can work.

  1072. And you can’t just waive away the essential fact that all of the other relatively rich nations on this planet deliver, as a matter of public policy, better health care for a great deal less cost.
    True, but it seems to me that there is an important distinction here. Those systems were put in place at a time when the cost and complexity of health care was vastly less, there were not huge financial interests in having a lot of this private, and many patients paid out of pocket.
    It’s much easier to go from that to a national system than it would be to do so in the US today. The political environment is just different.
    I like the idea of single-payer, but given the political difficulties I’m not at all sure we should be trying to go down that road. After all, Obamacare only went into effect in 2014, and has been the target of Republican sabotage ever since, so we haven’t really seen how well it can work.

  1073. “Can we afford it?” (who’s “we”?) may be a limited way of considering the various healthcare plans on offer, but it is the way many, probably most, people think about it. You can make the argument that it’s a stupid political reality, but I don’t think you can make the argument that it’s not the political reality.

  1074. “Can we afford it?” (who’s “we”?) may be a limited way of considering the various healthcare plans on offer, but it is the way many, probably most, people think about it. You can make the argument that it’s a stupid political reality, but I don’t think you can make the argument that it’s not the political reality.

  1075. If you could get on board with the principle, then we can argue about the specifics.
    I’m on board with the principle that we need to get everybody covered by health insurance. I’m on board (in principle) with the government being the payor for much, perhaps all, of that expansion.
    What I’m not on board with is the principle that the endpoint must be a single, government run, health care system. And definitely not with the idea that it is desirable (let alone feasible) to have that as the immediate next step. We may end up there. Or perhaps we find that a mixed system actually works better. But I don’t see the necessity of getting there in one jump.
    P.S. While we’re talking principles, I’m definitely on board with changing the current Medicare system (and any future government-paid systems) so that it can use its market power to negotiate lower drug prices. Something that, as I understand it, it is currently prohibited by law from doing.

  1076. If you could get on board with the principle, then we can argue about the specifics.
    I’m on board with the principle that we need to get everybody covered by health insurance. I’m on board (in principle) with the government being the payor for much, perhaps all, of that expansion.
    What I’m not on board with is the principle that the endpoint must be a single, government run, health care system. And definitely not with the idea that it is desirable (let alone feasible) to have that as the immediate next step. We may end up there. Or perhaps we find that a mixed system actually works better. But I don’t see the necessity of getting there in one jump.
    P.S. While we’re talking principles, I’m definitely on board with changing the current Medicare system (and any future government-paid systems) so that it can use its market power to negotiate lower drug prices. Something that, as I understand it, it is currently prohibited by law from doing.

  1077. “Can we afford it?” (who’s “we”?) may be a limited way of considering the various healthcare plans on offer, but it is the way many, probably most, people think about it. You can make the argument that it’s a stupid political reality, but I don’t think you can make the argument that it’s not the political reality.
    And, also as a matter of political reality, any proposal needs to include some specifics on “How exactly do we go about affording it?” Who pays more in taxes to cover the costs?
    It’s true that we routinely run a deficit. And that is, within limits, not a problem. But if you propose exceeding those limits, whether with the Trump tax cut or unfunded Medicare-for-all, you are going to end up in trouble. We can argue about exactly where the threshold is. (I’m not sure economists have a great handle on that either.) But that you are eventually reduced to the modern equivalent of debasing the currency is not really in doubt.

  1078. “Can we afford it?” (who’s “we”?) may be a limited way of considering the various healthcare plans on offer, but it is the way many, probably most, people think about it. You can make the argument that it’s a stupid political reality, but I don’t think you can make the argument that it’s not the political reality.
    And, also as a matter of political reality, any proposal needs to include some specifics on “How exactly do we go about affording it?” Who pays more in taxes to cover the costs?
    It’s true that we routinely run a deficit. And that is, within limits, not a problem. But if you propose exceeding those limits, whether with the Trump tax cut or unfunded Medicare-for-all, you are going to end up in trouble. We can argue about exactly where the threshold is. (I’m not sure economists have a great handle on that either.) But that you are eventually reduced to the modern equivalent of debasing the currency is not really in doubt.

  1081. I try not to be a member of the hyperventilationist left, and I agree with this.
    Left v. further left can be really enervating!
    The principle is the same wrt my allies to my near right. I see all the (very rational) appeals to “it’s politically dead in the water” as small bore surrenders, and your assessment may well be correct….but
    You fight the message with a better one.
    Employer paid health care benefits are the same as a TAX.
    That TAX is HUGE (basically a 100% marginal rate). Are you happy paying a 100% tax rate on a significant part of your income?
    Tens of millions of our citizens have NO HEALTH CARE. THIS IS A MORAL ABOMINATION FOR THE RICHEST NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.
    Do you want to fill out tons of paperwork and argue with insurance companies, OR DO YOU WANT COMPREHENSIVE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE? PICK.
    Change the narrative. Stop with the premature surrenders. If you are on board with the principle, then for cripes sake, be out and proud about it.
    Maybe we win. Maybe we don’t. But for ‘eff’s sake….FIGHT.
    You want to criticize…then criticize the fascist right. They are the enemy, not Warren or Sanders.
    What I see here is, “Well, universal covereage is a great idea, but we can’t possibly do that now.”
    WTF?

  1082. I try not to be a member of the hyperventilationist left, and I agree with this.
    Left v. further left can be really enervating!
    The principle is the same wrt my allies to my near right. I see all the (very rational) appeals to “it’s politically dead in the water” as small bore surrenders, and your assessment may well be correct….but
    You fight the message with a better one.
    Employer paid health care benefits are the same as a TAX.
    That TAX is HUGE (basically a 100% marginal rate). Are you happy paying a 100% tax rate on a significant part of your income?
    Tens of millions of our citizens have NO HEALTH CARE. THIS IS A MORAL ABOMINATION FOR THE RICHEST NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.
    Do you want to fill out tons of paperwork and argue with insurance companies, OR DO YOU WANT COMPREHENSIVE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE? PICK.
    Change the narrative. Stop with the premature surrenders. If you are on board with the principle, then for cripes sake, be out and proud about it.
    Maybe we win. Maybe we don’t. But for ‘eff’s sake….FIGHT.
    You want to criticize…then criticize the fascist right. They are the enemy, not Warren or Sanders.
    What I see here is, “Well, universal covereage is a great idea, but we can’t possibly do that now.”
    WTF?

  1083. I’ve said this more than once before here, but the key policy to put before the US electorate is not single payer but making healthcare insurance costs independent of health status. Because if you don’t, many of the people who need it most can’t afford it.
    This is not at all unrealistic: it’s how the various systems in Europe work, including ones which aren’t single payer. It’s what happens with employer-provided insurance in the US. It’s normal and necessary.
    It does mean that more money has to come from relatively well people, or else from taxation, to pay for the savings made by relatively sick people.

  1084. I’ve said this more than once before here, but the key policy to put before the US electorate is not single payer but making healthcare insurance costs independent of health status. Because if you don’t, many of the people who need it most can’t afford it.
    This is not at all unrealistic: it’s how the various systems in Europe work, including ones which aren’t single payer. It’s what happens with employer-provided insurance in the US. It’s normal and necessary.
    It does mean that more money has to come from relatively well people, or else from taxation, to pay for the savings made by relatively sick people.

  1085. I like the idea of single-payer, but given the political difficulties I’m not at all sure we should be trying to go down that road.
    If you like the idea, then you should always be pushing for us to go down that road. Always. My point is simple: We can do better, and if this is so, then why should we be be shy about trying to make it so?
    You want examples? Civil Rights revolution of the 60’s. Gay rights turnaround of the last 30 years.
    Some minor ones….
    “There’s no way a B-level Hollywood actor can be elected president.”
    “There is no way a bankrupt racist reality TV con artist can be elected president.”
    The common wisdom is just that-common.

  1086. I like the idea of single-payer, but given the political difficulties I’m not at all sure we should be trying to go down that road.
    If you like the idea, then you should always be pushing for us to go down that road. Always. My point is simple: We can do better, and if this is so, then why should we be be shy about trying to make it so?
    You want examples? Civil Rights revolution of the 60’s. Gay rights turnaround of the last 30 years.
    Some minor ones….
    “There’s no way a B-level Hollywood actor can be elected president.”
    “There is no way a bankrupt racist reality TV con artist can be elected president.”
    The common wisdom is just that-common.

  1087. What bobbyp said.
    And you argue for it based on our ability and our good will to make things better. Can do is a message for the future. Sí, se puede.

  1088. What bobbyp said.
    And you argue for it based on our ability and our good will to make things better. Can do is a message for the future. Sí, se puede.

  1089. Employer paid health care benefits are the same as a TAX.
    That TAX is HUGE (basically a 100% marginal rate).
    I don’t think I’d go quite as far as saying that it’s “the same” as a tax. But certainly, if the government takes over providing health care, the amount will similar. The thing is, to make it something like “the same”, you need to have a mechanism to take money for where it is currently paid (i.e. the employer) to where it will now be paid (i.e. the government).
    You can do that by taxing the employers. The challenge being that different employers spend a different amounts on their (quite variable) healthcare plans.
    Do you somehow capture how much they were spending (when? last year? average of last 5 years?) and tax them that amount? Is that fair to those who were spending a lot on good plans vs those who spent little on minimal or no plans?
    Or do you tax all employers the same per employee? And what do you do to address those who lose their job because their employer’s cheap-or-no plan was the most they could afford? (You are free to argue that it will be a very small number. Fine. Then it will be cheap and easy to address — so do it already.)
    Or you can do it via the individual income tax system. But if you want to make that viable, you need to make sure the individual taxpayers/employees actually see the money that their employer is no longer spending on a healthcare plan.
    Which mechanism is better is open for discussion. Refusing to indicate which one you will try for, or claiming that nothing will be required? That’s disingenuous at best.

  1090. Employer paid health care benefits are the same as a TAX.
    That TAX is HUGE (basically a 100% marginal rate).
    I don’t think I’d go quite as far as saying that it’s “the same” as a tax. But certainly, if the government takes over providing health care, the amount will similar. The thing is, to make it something like “the same”, you need to have a mechanism to take money for where it is currently paid (i.e. the employer) to where it will now be paid (i.e. the government).
    You can do that by taxing the employers. The challenge being that different employers spend a different amounts on their (quite variable) healthcare plans.
    Do you somehow capture how much they were spending (when? last year? average of last 5 years?) and tax them that amount? Is that fair to those who were spending a lot on good plans vs those who spent little on minimal or no plans?
    Or do you tax all employers the same per employee? And what do you do to address those who lose their job because their employer’s cheap-or-no plan was the most they could afford? (You are free to argue that it will be a very small number. Fine. Then it will be cheap and easy to address — so do it already.)
    Or you can do it via the individual income tax system. But if you want to make that viable, you need to make sure the individual taxpayers/employees actually see the money that their employer is no longer spending on a healthcare plan.
    Which mechanism is better is open for discussion. Refusing to indicate which one you will try for, or claiming that nothing will be required? That’s disingenuous at best.

  1091. Which mechanism is better is open for discussion.
    True. But there is a time and a place. If you are ON BOARD with the principle, then the mechanism is secondary. Getting buried in that kind of minutiae is bad optics and bad politics. The politics is simple:
    More coverage.
    Less Cost.
    Less hassle.
    Like the guy in the 9/11 commercial said, “Let’s go.”

  1092. Which mechanism is better is open for discussion.
    True. But there is a time and a place. If you are ON BOARD with the principle, then the mechanism is secondary. Getting buried in that kind of minutiae is bad optics and bad politics. The politics is simple:
    More coverage.
    Less Cost.
    Less hassle.
    Like the guy in the 9/11 commercial said, “Let’s go.”

  1095. Getting buried in that kind of minutiae is bad optics and bad politics.
    i can’t agree more.
    which is why i wish they’d left things at the slogan level and not tried to write the actual bills (which the GOP is never asked to do, of course).

  1096. Getting buried in that kind of minutiae is bad optics and bad politics.
    i can’t agree more.
    which is why i wish they’d left things at the slogan level and not tried to write the actual bills (which the GOP is never asked to do, of course).

  1097. Generally, I’m okay with pushing for things that aren’t popular or seem scary to lots of people if those things are good ideas. Right now I just want Rump out of office, so I’m a bit more risk averse than normal.

  1098. Generally, I’m okay with pushing for things that aren’t popular or seem scary to lots of people if those things are good ideas. Right now I just want Rump out of office, so I’m a bit more risk averse than normal.

  1107. “You don’t get to make policy unless you win.”
    Precisely.
    Don’t do a Mondale and speak the truth that you will raise taxes.
    Don’t do a Clinton or an Obama and threaten to medically insure human beings, especially the ones with pre-existing conditions.
    That just gets some people right down in the fear glands, that sorta talk.
    Don’t do a Warren. Don’t do a Sanders.
    Lie to the American people like a .. like a .. Republican would. Cheat them. Steal from them.
    Pollute with unlimited coal ash without producing a single additional coal mining job to produce the shit.
    Throw in that they are on their own and they can fuck off, and in the fucking off, they can proclaim they are free by virtue of the fucking off.
    Like Martin Luther King, they would throw their MAGA hats in the air and proclaim “Fucked at last! We are finally fucked at last!”
    Or better, say, we’re going to govern on behalf of the one percent.
    The American people like that, because they feel like maybe one day they will win the lottery and then they too will be taxed like the one percent and fer gawd sakes that’s unAmerican, if not Ukrainian, wait, that last would be OK.
    It seems to work every time.
    Be a Republican. Get elected.
    It would help as well to prohibit some number of Republican white males from voting.
    In getting elected.
    One presumes if Hillary had promised to exempt Marty personally from paying any taxes for the rest of his life, he would have overlooked her corruption and her death by advanced carcinoma during the election.
    Or maybe he would say, well, I can like Hillary’s tax exemptions for me and at the same time think she should be removed from office for her corruption.

  1108. “You don’t get to make policy unless you win.”
    Precisely.
    Don’t do a Mondale and speak the truth that you will raise taxes.
    Don’t do a Clinton or an Obama and threaten to medically insure human beings, especially the ones with pre-existing conditions.
    That just gets some people right down in the fear glands, that sorta talk.
    Don’t do a Warren. Don’t do a Sanders.
    Lie to the American people like a .. like a .. Republican would. Cheat them. Steal from them.
    Pollute with unlimited coal ash without producing a single additional coal mining job to produce the shit.
    Throw in that they are on their own and they can fuck off, and in the fucking off, they can proclaim they are free by virtue of the fucking off.
    Like Martin Luther King, they would throw their MAGA hats in the air and proclaim “Fucked at last! We are finally fucked at last!”
    Or better, say, we’re going to govern on behalf of the one percent.
    The American people like that, because they feel like maybe one day they will win the lottery and then they too will be taxed like the one percent and fer gawd sakes that’s unAmerican, if not Ukrainian, wait, that last would be OK.
    It seems to work every time.
    Be a Republican. Get elected.
    It would help as well to prohibit some number of Republican white males from voting.
    In getting elected.
    One presumes if Hillary had promised to exempt Marty personally from paying any taxes for the rest of his life, he would have overlooked her corruption and her death by advanced carcinoma during the election.
    Or maybe he would say, well, I can like Hillary’s tax exemptions for me and at the same time think she should be removed from office for her corruption.

  1111. Lie to the American people like a .. like a .. Republican would. Cheat them. Steal from them.
    Is it lying to the American people to say to them: “I favor going to Medicare for all [assuming you do]. But it’s not something that we are going to be able to implement immediately [since we aren’t; unless you foresee something truly amazing in the Senate]. So here’s what I think we can implement.”? That sounds a lot less like lying than promising pie in the sky that you know you won’t be able to deliver.
    Those who believe that there is a plausible scenario where you would be able to deliver it, feel free to lay it out. Start with the Senate. How many seats might you reasonably flip? (I’ll freely concede 4, while holding Alabama. If you can see a path to 10, let alone more, name names.)

  1112. Lie to the American people like a .. like a .. Republican would. Cheat them. Steal from them.
    Is it lying to the American people to say to them: “I favor going to Medicare for all [assuming you do]. But it’s not something that we are going to be able to implement immediately [since we aren’t; unless you foresee something truly amazing in the Senate]. So here’s what I think we can implement.”? That sounds a lot less like lying than promising pie in the sky that you know you won’t be able to deliver.
    Those who believe that there is a plausible scenario where you would be able to deliver it, feel free to lay it out. Start with the Senate. How many seats might you reasonably flip? (I’ll freely concede 4, while holding Alabama. If you can see a path to 10, let alone more, name names.)

  1113. Hey, Sapient. Speaking of winning…how are the Dems doing in Virginia today?
    Tomorrow (EST) is election day. They’re favored to do well! I did one canvassing to GOTV, and should have done more. Unfortunately, some things have been interfering with my usual activism, and although I will vote tomorrow, I will not be poll watching as I usually do.
    Keep hope alive. If we can turn VA truly blue, that will surely help the cause tremendously, from voting rights to prison reform …. Thanks so much for asking!

  1114. Hey, Sapient. Speaking of winning…how are the Dems doing in Virginia today?
    Tomorrow (EST) is election day. They’re favored to do well! I did one canvassing to GOTV, and should have done more. Unfortunately, some things have been interfering with my usual activism, and although I will vote tomorrow, I will not be poll watching as I usually do.
    Keep hope alive. If we can turn VA truly blue, that will surely help the cause tremendously, from voting rights to prison reform …. Thanks so much for asking!

  1115. To me, it’s about acknowledging and working with the facts on the ground.
    It’s not lying, it’s recognizing what people are able to imagine and accept, meeting them there, and then moving forward from there.
    Medicare for all is a great idea, and there are numerous impediments to making it a reality, among them (a) some parties are gonna get paid less and are therefore going to be less than thrilled, and (b) a lot of people have reasonable insurance now, and won’t want to give that up until they see how this new thing pans out. There are probably lots more.
    The goals here are (a) enable people to go the doctor and (b) make it affordable to do so. Whatever achieves those goals is fine, single payer is one of the possible means, nothing more. The specific objective of M4A is less important IMO than winning elections so that the actual goal – affordable health care for everyone – can be met, through whatever means.
    IMO

  1116. To me, it’s about acknowledging and working with the facts on the ground.
    It’s not lying, it’s recognizing what people are able to imagine and accept, meeting them there, and then moving forward from there.
    Medicare for all is a great idea, and there are numerous impediments to making it a reality, among them (a) some parties are gonna get paid less and are therefore going to be less than thrilled, and (b) a lot of people have reasonable insurance now, and won’t want to give that up until they see how this new thing pans out. There are probably lots more.
    The goals here are (a) enable people to go the doctor and (b) make it affordable to do so. Whatever achieves those goals is fine, single payer is one of the possible means, nothing more. The specific objective of M4A is less important IMO than winning elections so that the actual goal – affordable health care for everyone – can be met, through whatever means.
    IMO

  1117. So, a little bit of consternation and frustration:
    I had dinner tonight with good friends. They are Dems, but we don’t see eye to eye on everything. They seemed Bernie curious in 2016, always complaining about The Emails, The Hawk. They were Medicare for All. They voted for Hillary, but were lukewarm. We see each other frequently, and Medicare for All has been a theme with then.
    Well, who’d a knowed: tonight, they (one of them, at least) wonders why healthcare is even an issue! They are now on Medicare, and are surprised that they actually have to pay for stuff!
    First, I think they’re secretly skeptical of women (although they would deny that from now until forever). Second, maybe they have figured out that there are other healthcare options?
    Anyway, as y’all can probably guess, it’s hard enough for me to have friends, but I did mention that I thought they were in favor of Medicare for All. There was little acknowledgment of that.
    I just get hugely frustrated with everybody. Honestly, I just wish we could elect people who want to make things better. Is it wrong to echo Obama, that better is good? And, yeah. I wish Obama was a little more with us now. Maybe he’s right to stay away, considering that lots of people blame him for this backlash.
    Just trying to stay sane enough to do what I can do.

  1118. So, a little bit of consternation and frustration:
    I had dinner tonight with good friends. They are Dems, but we don’t see eye to eye on everything. They seemed Bernie curious in 2016, always complaining about The Emails, The Hawk. They were Medicare for All. They voted for Hillary, but were lukewarm. We see each other frequently, and Medicare for All has been a theme with then.
    Well, who’d a knowed: tonight, they (one of them, at least) wonders why healthcare is even an issue! They are now on Medicare, and are surprised that they actually have to pay for stuff!
    First, I think they’re secretly skeptical of women (although they would deny that from now until forever). Second, maybe they have figured out that there are other healthcare options?
    Anyway, as y’all can probably guess, it’s hard enough for me to have friends, but I did mention that I thought they were in favor of Medicare for All. There was little acknowledgment of that.
    I just get hugely frustrated with everybody. Honestly, I just wish we could elect people who want to make things better. Is it wrong to echo Obama, that better is good? And, yeah. I wish Obama was a little more with us now. Maybe he’s right to stay away, considering that lots of people blame him for this backlash.
    Just trying to stay sane enough to do what I can do.

  1119. I realize that my previous comment was somewhat incoherent. The point of the story is that these people (one of whom is a nurse) for whom “Medicare for All!” was one of their big issues, and why they liked Bernie, are now … “Medicare for All? Why is Elizabeth Warren even saying this sh#t?”
    So yeah. I am not a fervent “Medicare for All” believer. I agree that whatever combination of tricks gets us to people getting medical care is fine. But what’s wrong with these people who make something their main issue, and then just pretend it never happened?

  1120. I realize that my previous comment was somewhat incoherent. The point of the story is that these people (one of whom is a nurse) for whom “Medicare for All!” was one of their big issues, and why they liked Bernie, are now … “Medicare for All? Why is Elizabeth Warren even saying this sh#t?”
    So yeah. I am not a fervent “Medicare for All” believer. I agree that whatever combination of tricks gets us to people getting medical care is fine. But what’s wrong with these people who make something their main issue, and then just pretend it never happened?

  1121. they (one of them, at least) wonders why healthcare is even an issue! They are now on Medicare, and are surprised that they actually have to pay for stuff!
    Forgive me if I am slandering your friends. But this sounds to me entirely like what I see as the view of the GOP’s elderly supporters in this regard. Essentially: I’ve got mine now, so who cares about those of you who aren’t old enough yet?
    I may be doing them a disservice. But I find the resemblance notable.

  1122. they (one of them, at least) wonders why healthcare is even an issue! They are now on Medicare, and are surprised that they actually have to pay for stuff!
    Forgive me if I am slandering your friends. But this sounds to me entirely like what I see as the view of the GOP’s elderly supporters in this regard. Essentially: I’ve got mine now, so who cares about those of you who aren’t old enough yet?
    I may be doing them a disservice. But I find the resemblance notable.

  1123. “They are now on Medicare, and are surprised that they actually have to pay for stuff!”
    Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get.
    They could inform themselves, but everyone likes a surprise … or not.
    Were they surprised that Medicare was a government program? And that black people get it too, like the Tea Party kanumbskulls apparently were unaware of, since Obamacare was a giveaway to THOSE people?
    I just helped a friend of mine, a chef at Whole Foods, translate her health insurance booklet from WF into English (it’s shitty insurance, barely affordable for what she gets paid, but better than nothing said the walrus to the oysters, as he ate them one by one).
    Anyway, she wanted to know the following things (she’s 46 and lives by the seat of her pants, but words hard and loves her job): Why do I need insurance anyway, if I’m not sick (as she stubbed out her Camel filtered)? And why am I expected to pay these co-pays and deductibles if I’m paying a biweekly premium?
    Etc.
    I care about her, but I can barely answer the questions without first inserting an anti-teeth-grinding device in my mouth.
    I wanna say, ask Marty! He didn’t get it either.
    But who does? You might as well ask why don’t we go up on the roof and jump off instead of putting up with these multiple trade offs and payment levels, arrows pointing everywhere on flow charts, that we suspect are there to somehow affect our behavior, but quite frankly most people don’t have the time or inclination to figure out in their busy, butt-kicking workdays.
    The mouse wants the cheese. Why the maze?
    Most of the mice think they are just being fucked with, and they are right.
    Then I looked up on the internet and learned the founder of Whole Foods said, “well, we can’t have people going to the emergency room every time they have a hangnail”, which translated, means (first, nothing, since that has never happened), “well, we can’t have people running to the doctor every time they have a little chest pain or a suspicious looking mole, can we?”, except of course he and and his family are exempted from this behavioral stipulation.
    So, the rank and file Whole Foods workers let the chest pains, the suspicious mole and the fucking hangnail go until it’s too late and they keel over on the Amazon warehouse floor, like a guy recently did, dead as a carp, while despite the second by second monitoring on the guy to make sure he’s hopping to that next order that has to be prontoed NOW, for no particular reason except that some shareholder might get wind and sell their stock, THAT he lays there for 15 minutes before management notices and then they shoo away (Get back to work!) his fellow workers, not fellow union members, in case productivity might suffer for two minutes.
    I like to think that he croaked while running with the most recent book I ordered in his hand. Gives me a warm feeling that he died in the harness and that my book still arrived in two days.
    This must what my mother meant when she asked me as a kid on one of my lazy days, “Don’t you want to get ahead, Johnny?”
    I’m ahead, and that guy is dead. It rhymes. But there are plenty more still behind me, and damn, that feels good, else what would be the point of getting ahead.
    It’s stupid up and down and sideways.
    But stupid in the unique American and predatory, but endearingly sentimental way.

  1124. “They are now on Medicare, and are surprised that they actually have to pay for stuff!”
    Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get.
    They could inform themselves, but everyone likes a surprise … or not.
    Were they surprised that Medicare was a government program? And that black people get it too, like the Tea Party kanumbskulls apparently were unaware of, since Obamacare was a giveaway to THOSE people?
    I just helped a friend of mine, a chef at Whole Foods, translate her health insurance booklet from WF into English (it’s shitty insurance, barely affordable for what she gets paid, but better than nothing said the walrus to the oysters, as he ate them one by one).
    Anyway, she wanted to know the following things (she’s 46 and lives by the seat of her pants, but words hard and loves her job): Why do I need insurance anyway, if I’m not sick (as she stubbed out her Camel filtered)? And why am I expected to pay these co-pays and deductibles if I’m paying a biweekly premium?
    Etc.
    I care about her, but I can barely answer the questions without first inserting an anti-teeth-grinding device in my mouth.
    I wanna say, ask Marty! He didn’t get it either.
    But who does? You might as well ask why don’t we go up on the roof and jump off instead of putting up with these multiple trade offs and payment levels, arrows pointing everywhere on flow charts, that we suspect are there to somehow affect our behavior, but quite frankly most people don’t have the time or inclination to figure out in their busy, butt-kicking workdays.
    The mouse wants the cheese. Why the maze?
    Most of the mice think they are just being fucked with, and they are right.
    Then I looked up on the internet and learned the founder of Whole Foods said, “well, we can’t have people going to the emergency room every time they have a hangnail”, which translated, means (first, nothing, since that has never happened), “well, we can’t have people running to the doctor every time they have a little chest pain or a suspicious looking mole, can we?”, except of course he and and his family are exempted from this behavioral stipulation.
    So, the rank and file Whole Foods workers let the chest pains, the suspicious mole and the fucking hangnail go until it’s too late and they keel over on the Amazon warehouse floor, like a guy recently did, dead as a carp, while despite the second by second monitoring on the guy to make sure he’s hopping to that next order that has to be prontoed NOW, for no particular reason except that some shareholder might get wind and sell their stock, THAT he lays there for 15 minutes before management notices and then they shoo away (Get back to work!) his fellow workers, not fellow union members, in case productivity might suffer for two minutes.
    I like to think that he croaked while running with the most recent book I ordered in his hand. Gives me a warm feeling that he died in the harness and that my book still arrived in two days.
    This must what my mother meant when she asked me as a kid on one of my lazy days, “Don’t you want to get ahead, Johnny?”
    I’m ahead, and that guy is dead. It rhymes. But there are plenty more still behind me, and damn, that feels good, else what would be the point of getting ahead.
    It’s stupid up and down and sideways.
    But stupid in the unique American and predatory, but endearingly sentimental way.

  1127. Is it wrong to echo Obama, that better is good?
    Right?
    Obama was too cautious. Clinton, too hawkish and too establishment. Bernie, probably a crap executive.
    This year, Biden, basically out of touch. Warren, too “socialist”. Harris, too hard-ass prosecutor and too California on top of that. Butigieg, too middle of the road.
    Time for a brief head check – they’re all running against Trump.
    Ham sandwich, everybody. Past-its-sell-by-date ham sandwich in a vending machine on the NJ Turnpike. Doesn’t matter.
    Trump out. That is the goal. Not because we’re all still shedding our tiny snowflake tears from 2016, but because he is a horrible human being and an even worse POTUS.
    Trump out. That is the goal. We can fine-tune later.

  1128. Is it wrong to echo Obama, that better is good?
    Right?
    Obama was too cautious. Clinton, too hawkish and too establishment. Bernie, probably a crap executive.
    This year, Biden, basically out of touch. Warren, too “socialist”. Harris, too hard-ass prosecutor and too California on top of that. Butigieg, too middle of the road.
    Time for a brief head check – they’re all running against Trump.
    Ham sandwich, everybody. Past-its-sell-by-date ham sandwich in a vending machine on the NJ Turnpike. Doesn’t matter.
    Trump out. That is the goal. Not because we’re all still shedding our tiny snowflake tears from 2016, but because he is a horrible human being and an even worse POTUS.
    Trump out. That is the goal. We can fine-tune later.

  1129. “Ham sandwich, everybody.”
    Yup.
    Keep in mind though that the shit sandwiches in the opposition will indict whatever ham sandwich we manage to elect in spite of the former’s every attempt to steal the election.

  1130. “Ham sandwich, everybody.”
    Yup.
    Keep in mind though that the shit sandwiches in the opposition will indict whatever ham sandwich we manage to elect in spite of the former’s every attempt to steal the election.

  1131. Fnck ’em. Bring it.
    FIrst, ham sandwich. Any ham sandwich will do, the bar is very very very very very very low.

  1132. Fnck ’em. Bring it.
    FIrst, ham sandwich. Any ham sandwich will do, the bar is very very very very very very low.

  1133. what if i don’t eat swine? turkey? but Suzy doesn’t eat meat – can we make it a tofurkey sandwich? but Billy doesn’t like tofu! is there any bacon on it? asks Pat. bacon is just smoked swine! arrrg! Gretchen wants to know if can we have spaghetti? gluten! apples? too many pesticides!
    GOP: sure, we’ll eat this shit sandwich for another four years! suck it, libz!

  1134. what if i don’t eat swine? turkey? but Suzy doesn’t eat meat – can we make it a tofurkey sandwich? but Billy doesn’t like tofu! is there any bacon on it? asks Pat. bacon is just smoked swine! arrrg! Gretchen wants to know if can we have spaghetti? gluten! apples? too many pesticides!
    GOP: sure, we’ll eat this shit sandwich for another four years! suck it, libz!

  1135. the shit sandwiches in the opposition will indict whatever ham sandwich we manage to elect
    Allow me to suggest that a ham sandwich isn’t really the threshold. I’d say that I’d rather vote for a sh*t sandwich than Trump. Sure, I’d prefer something better. Far prefer. But IMHO, even a literal sh*t sandwich would be a significant step upwards.

  1136. the shit sandwiches in the opposition will indict whatever ham sandwich we manage to elect
    Allow me to suggest that a ham sandwich isn’t really the threshold. I’d say that I’d rather vote for a sh*t sandwich than Trump. Sure, I’d prefer something better. Far prefer. But IMHO, even a literal sh*t sandwich would be a significant step upwards.

  1141. I wonder if you could win the Electoral College with 27% of the popular vote?
    Hans von Spakovsky and company are working on it.
    Besides, if the entire Republican Party edifice and infrastructure are not taken down eternally along with trump, then elections are a waste of America’s time and money.

  1142. I wonder if you could win the Electoral College with 27% of the popular vote?
    Hans von Spakovsky and company are working on it.
    Besides, if the entire Republican Party edifice and infrastructure are not taken down eternally along with trump, then elections are a waste of America’s time and money.

  1143. I wonder if you could win the Electoral College with 27% of the popular vote?

    We decided to find out. A candidate only needs to win the 11 states with the most electoral votes to hit 270. Assuming only two candidates (a big assumption; see below) and that one candidate won all of those states by just one vote, and then didn’t win a single vote in any of the other states (or D.C.), how many votes would that candidate have to win? It depends on how you do the math. Either way, it’s far less than half.
    Initially when we did this story, we found that if you start with the biggest-electoral-vote states, the answer is 27 percent. However, we have an update: as Andrej Schoeke very nicely pointed out to us on Twitter, there’s another way to do it (via CGP Grey) that requires even less of the popular vote: start with the smallest-electoral-vote states. Our math went through a few iterations on this but by our final math, in 2012 that could have meant winning the presidency with only around 23 percent of the popular vote.

  1144. I wonder if you could win the Electoral College with 27% of the popular vote?

    We decided to find out. A candidate only needs to win the 11 states with the most electoral votes to hit 270. Assuming only two candidates (a big assumption; see below) and that one candidate won all of those states by just one vote, and then didn’t win a single vote in any of the other states (or D.C.), how many votes would that candidate have to win? It depends on how you do the math. Either way, it’s far less than half.
    Initially when we did this story, we found that if you start with the biggest-electoral-vote states, the answer is 27 percent. However, we have an update: as Andrej Schoeke very nicely pointed out to us on Twitter, there’s another way to do it (via CGP Grey) that requires even less of the popular vote: start with the smallest-electoral-vote states. Our math went through a few iterations on this but by our final math, in 2012 that could have meant winning the presidency with only around 23 percent of the popular vote.

  1145. I see Jacob Hacker has an editorial at NYT about Warren and health care….something, something, she’s asking the right question, but I am unable to get past the pay wall.
    Election day today: Vote early. Vote often.
    We are fighting YET ANOTHER Tim Eyeman initiative to gut the state’s taxing authority (and public transportation), and the never ending battle over “affirmative action”.

  1146. I see Jacob Hacker has an editorial at NYT about Warren and health care….something, something, she’s asking the right question, but I am unable to get past the pay wall.
    Election day today: Vote early. Vote often.
    We are fighting YET ANOTHER Tim Eyeman initiative to gut the state’s taxing authority (and public transportation), and the never ending battle over “affirmative action”.

  1149. This is from 2016, but it looks like as of then the magic number(s) are either 23 or 27%, depending on whether you take a big-state or small-state approach.
    The bigger question, to me, is at what level is the legitimacy of the POTUS compromised. Less than 45% of the popular vote? Less than 40%? 33%?
    Trump won 46% of the popular vote in 2016, to Clinton’s 48%. So, a close outcome, 2% difference. What happens if the difference is something like 10%? Or more?
    As an aside, if you want a good laugh some time, go look up Trump’s tweet stream from 2012, when he briefly believed Obama had beaten Romney in the electoral college, but not in the popular vote.

  1150. This is from 2016, but it looks like as of then the magic number(s) are either 23 or 27%, depending on whether you take a big-state or small-state approach.
    The bigger question, to me, is at what level is the legitimacy of the POTUS compromised. Less than 45% of the popular vote? Less than 40%? 33%?
    Trump won 46% of the popular vote in 2016, to Clinton’s 48%. So, a close outcome, 2% difference. What happens if the difference is something like 10%? Or more?
    As an aside, if you want a good laugh some time, go look up Trump’s tweet stream from 2012, when he briefly believed Obama had beaten Romney in the electoral college, but not in the popular vote.

  1155. at what level is the legitimacy of the POTUS compromisedat what level is the legitimacy of the POTUS compromised
    I’d say it isn’t so much a hard number as a margin. If you’re more than (my guess) 5% of the popular vote below the person you beat, you’ve got a legitimacy problem. But with a significant 3rd party candidate, you could win the EC with say 35% of the vote, but as long as the candidate from the other major party is below 40% you’re probably OK. On the other hand, you could have 40% of the popular vote (i.e. 5% more) and have a serious problem if your opponent was above 45%.
    I reserve the right to revise my 5% margin first cut. But I doubt it’s off more than a percent or two.

  1156. at what level is the legitimacy of the POTUS compromisedat what level is the legitimacy of the POTUS compromised
    I’d say it isn’t so much a hard number as a margin. If you’re more than (my guess) 5% of the popular vote below the person you beat, you’ve got a legitimacy problem. But with a significant 3rd party candidate, you could win the EC with say 35% of the vote, but as long as the candidate from the other major party is below 40% you’re probably OK. On the other hand, you could have 40% of the popular vote (i.e. 5% more) and have a serious problem if your opponent was above 45%.
    I reserve the right to revise my 5% margin first cut. But I doubt it’s off more than a percent or two.

  1157. In the event that someone wins the EC without getting the most overall votes, I think you have to take the square of the ratio of the top-two popular-vote receiving candidates, multiply it by the percentage of votes received by all other candidates, divide it by the cubed-root of voter turnout, drink a fifth of Jack Daniels, and flip a coin. Heads = legitimate. Tails = illegitimate.

  1158. In the event that someone wins the EC without getting the most overall votes, I think you have to take the square of the ratio of the top-two popular-vote receiving candidates, multiply it by the percentage of votes received by all other candidates, divide it by the cubed-root of voter turnout, drink a fifth of Jack Daniels, and flip a coin. Heads = legitimate. Tails = illegitimate.

  1163. so… where do our Trump-defenders stand on Trump taking Syrian oil fields by force in order to pay us back for the Iraq war?

  1164. so… where do our Trump-defenders stand on Trump taking Syrian oil fields by force in order to pay us back for the Iraq war?

  1165. Probably too ignorant to know just how miniscule those oil fields actually are. Which is to say that (surprise!) there’s no way they pay us back, even if Trump could find someone dumb enough to run them for him.

  1166. Probably too ignorant to know just how miniscule those oil fields actually are. Which is to say that (surprise!) there’s no way they pay us back, even if Trump could find someone dumb enough to run them for him.

  1169. so… where do our Trump-defenders stand on Trump taking Syrian oil fields by force in order to pay us back for the Iraq war?
    Not many of those* come through here….I suspect they will find a way to justify this policy on the grounds that the USA has been “taken advantage of” by just about any foreign country you can name, and payback is perfectly OK. So what’s the big deal?
    Then they will say p is a despicable POS and they didn’t vote for him anyway, so there, take that libz.
    *but we know who you are! What did our esteemed conservative interlocutors have to say about the Kurds getting stabbed in the back? That will tell the tale.

  1170. so… where do our Trump-defenders stand on Trump taking Syrian oil fields by force in order to pay us back for the Iraq war?
    Not many of those* come through here….I suspect they will find a way to justify this policy on the grounds that the USA has been “taken advantage of” by just about any foreign country you can name, and payback is perfectly OK. So what’s the big deal?
    Then they will say p is a despicable POS and they didn’t vote for him anyway, so there, take that libz.
    *but we know who you are! What did our esteemed conservative interlocutors have to say about the Kurds getting stabbed in the back? That will tell the tale.

  1173. that, and it’s a blatant war crime to take them.
    Well yeah. But somehow I can’t see a “Trump-defender” caring a fig about that. Just not an issue for them.

  1174. that, and it’s a blatant war crime to take them.
    Well yeah. But somehow I can’t see a “Trump-defender” caring a fig about that. Just not an issue for them.

  1175. I do recall writing something about judgement and restraint (or the lack thereof) recently with regard to Rump. Also general awareness (or lack thereof) of boundaries and constraints. These are the “qualities” that contribute to his decision-making, be it in deciding how to deal with Ukrainian aid or how to handle another country’s oil or renting his properties to foreign dignitaries or any number of other aspects of being president (or the real estate business – before or after being president).
    IOKIFYAR (It’s okay if you are Rump.) He’s being persecuted in unprecedented fashion.

  1176. I do recall writing something about judgement and restraint (or the lack thereof) recently with regard to Rump. Also general awareness (or lack thereof) of boundaries and constraints. These are the “qualities” that contribute to his decision-making, be it in deciding how to deal with Ukrainian aid or how to handle another country’s oil or renting his properties to foreign dignitaries or any number of other aspects of being president (or the real estate business – before or after being president).
    IOKIFYAR (It’s okay if you are Rump.) He’s being persecuted in unprecedented fashion.

  1179. But the issue wasn’t whether Lincoln’s election was legitimate. It was whether, under him, slavery would be abolished in the South.

  1180. But the issue wasn’t whether Lincoln’s election was legitimate. It was whether, under him, slavery would be abolished in the South.

  1181. Given that Lincoln wasn’t on the ballot in most of the secessionist states, I think a case could be made that they regarded his very candidacy as illegitimate.

  1182. Given that Lincoln wasn’t on the ballot in most of the secessionist states, I think a case could be made that they regarded his very candidacy as illegitimate.

  1185. Wonder how many Southern states will try to replicate that tactic next year? Could work….
    Well, no. Trump’s going to mostly win those states where they could try it anyway. Still, just because something’s useless and unworkable doesn’t mean these clowns won’t try it.

  1186. Wonder how many Southern states will try to replicate that tactic next year? Could work….
    Well, no. Trump’s going to mostly win those states where they could try it anyway. Still, just because something’s useless and unworkable doesn’t mean these clowns won’t try it.

  1189. I think a case could be made that they regarded his very candidacy as illegitimate.
    How’d that work out for them?

  1190. I think a case could be made that they regarded his very candidacy as illegitimate.
    How’d that work out for them?

  1197. Me: taking oilfields is bad, dont understand how it constitutes a war crime not saying it diesnt just that I dont know why it would be.

  1198. Me: taking oilfields is bad, dont understand how it constitutes a war crime not saying it diesnt just that I dont know why it would be.

  1201. You had a similar problem with the alleged crimes which are likely to result in Trump’s impeachment, Marty.

  1202. You had a similar problem with the alleged crimes which are likely to result in Trump’s impeachment, Marty.

  1203. Occupying armies are permitted some degree of usufruct. But invading in order to take the oil is unambiguously illegal.

  1204. Occupying armies are permitted some degree of usufruct. But invading in order to take the oil is unambiguously illegal.

  1207. “not saying it doesn’t just that I don’t know why it would be.
    That’s an odd formulation.
    Legally drunk.
    Well, if it’s legal, then what’s the problem?
    We could test the legality of all of this when a Democratic President sends federal troops into the Permian Basin in Texas and New Mexico and halts all fracking until methane emissions are fully capped and prevented from entering the atmosphere and in response, the conservative movement, the conservative government of Texas, and oil oligarchs, and Donald Trump and Mike Pence from their jail cells on Death Row label the action an Act of War against all right-thinking Americans.

  1208. “not saying it doesn’t just that I don’t know why it would be.
    That’s an odd formulation.
    Legally drunk.
    Well, if it’s legal, then what’s the problem?
    We could test the legality of all of this when a Democratic President sends federal troops into the Permian Basin in Texas and New Mexico and halts all fracking until methane emissions are fully capped and prevented from entering the atmosphere and in response, the conservative movement, the conservative government of Texas, and oil oligarchs, and Donald Trump and Mike Pence from their jail cells on Death Row label the action an Act of War against all right-thinking Americans.

  1211. Yes, much joy and many congrats sapient! And may this be a harbinger of what’s to come, and the first sign of what will finally force the rats to desert the sinking ship.
    But it’s just as likely that Trump will do something desperate, like start a war (maybe with Iran?) in order to become a “war president” in time for 2020.

  1212. Yes, much joy and many congrats sapient! And may this be a harbinger of what’s to come, and the first sign of what will finally force the rats to desert the sinking ship.
    But it’s just as likely that Trump will do something desperate, like start a war (maybe with Iran?) in order to become a “war president” in time for 2020.

  1213. “not saying it doesn’t just that I don’t know why it would be.”
    Especially odd formulation about the spoils of war coming from someone seeking to end U.S. involvement in endless wars, a position I sympathize with, though not absolutely, because any position … total isolationist … held by Pat Buchanan has to be suspect.
    I’m such a warmonger.
    The U.S. military would have to garrison all of those oilfields, and all of them would be deservedly butchered in the attempt, leading to a US invasion and possibly the introduction of nuclear weapons on the battlefield.

  1214. “not saying it doesn’t just that I don’t know why it would be.”
    Especially odd formulation about the spoils of war coming from someone seeking to end U.S. involvement in endless wars, a position I sympathize with, though not absolutely, because any position … total isolationist … held by Pat Buchanan has to be suspect.
    I’m such a warmonger.
    The U.S. military would have to garrison all of those oilfields, and all of them would be deservedly butchered in the attempt, leading to a US invasion and possibly the introduction of nuclear weapons on the battlefield.

  1215. But it’s just as likely that Trump will do something desperate, like start a war (maybe with Iran?) in order to become a “war president” in time for 2020.
    And this kind of stuff is happening. But if we’re vigilant, maybe we can get rid of this scourge.
    Thanks GftNC!

  1216. But it’s just as likely that Trump will do something desperate, like start a war (maybe with Iran?) in order to become a “war president” in time for 2020.
    And this kind of stuff is happening. But if we’re vigilant, maybe we can get rid of this scourge.
    Thanks GftNC!

  1221. “the rats to desert the sinking ship.”
    Those carriers of the right wing plague mustn’t be allowed to make landing and scuttle back into the body politic.
    Those ICE detention centers would serve as holding pens, until …..
    “like start a war (maybe with Iran?)”
    He might start a war on the American mainland. I mean if you are going to being the troops home, how will you keep them busy?

  1222. “the rats to desert the sinking ship.”
    Those carriers of the right wing plague mustn’t be allowed to make landing and scuttle back into the body politic.
    Those ICE detention centers would serve as holding pens, until …..
    “like start a war (maybe with Iran?)”
    He might start a war on the American mainland. I mean if you are going to being the troops home, how will you keep them busy?

  1225. But it’s just as likely that Trump will do something desperate, like start a war (maybe with Iran?) in order to become a “war president” in time for 2020.
    But to become a “war president” you generally have to have a war that a major portion of the population agrees is really necessary. And it helps if, at least initially, it looks like it could be a “short, victorious war.” Which a war with Iran wouldn’t be. (Unless Trump decides to up the ante by using nukes. Which would pretty much guarantee a massive loss in November.)
    I’d guess he’s more likely to go for a military strike somewhere, against someone with no ability to hit back. Then call it a war, and declare victory — “Fastest victory ever!!!”
    My sense is that the “war president” gig might have worked if he’d tried it last year. But by now, it just reads as desperation.
    I’m more worried about how he might lash out between losing in November and Inauguration Day. Two months to leave a horrible mess for whoever had the temerity to defeat him. Shudder.

  1226. But it’s just as likely that Trump will do something desperate, like start a war (maybe with Iran?) in order to become a “war president” in time for 2020.
    But to become a “war president” you generally have to have a war that a major portion of the population agrees is really necessary. And it helps if, at least initially, it looks like it could be a “short, victorious war.” Which a war with Iran wouldn’t be. (Unless Trump decides to up the ante by using nukes. Which would pretty much guarantee a massive loss in November.)
    I’d guess he’s more likely to go for a military strike somewhere, against someone with no ability to hit back. Then call it a war, and declare victory — “Fastest victory ever!!!”
    My sense is that the “war president” gig might have worked if he’d tried it last year. But by now, it just reads as desperation.
    I’m more worried about how he might lash out between losing in November and Inauguration Day. Two months to leave a horrible mess for whoever had the temerity to defeat him. Shudder.

  1229. I’m watching fascist oligarch Bevin’s refusal to concede the Governorship in Kentucky for how it might serve as a warm-up for p refusing to concede the Presidency in the event of impeachment or the failure of the Republican Party to steal the election for him in 2020.
    I’m especially interested to see if p orders Barr and the FuckJustice Department to intervene on Bevin’s behalf with whatever bullshit “election irregularities” (read” some blacks and drag queens voted) Bevin concocts.
    They will come up with ever-refreshing, unimagined bullshit going forward, since they long ago exhausted the busting of all traditional political norms.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF-LPsCsdr8
    “I’m more worried about how he might lash out between losing in November and Inauguration Day.”
    Be assured that there will be no traditional transition. That precedent was put in place following the 2016 election.
    The Cabinet agencies will be stripped of all records, all files, computer and otherwise, and funds will go missing, in order to hide the massive sabotaging, traitorous criminal enterprise of the Trump Republican Party as it has wrecked out government.
    All records of communications with foreign governments will vanish.
    Should there be a new Democratic President, on day one he or she must issue an executive order firing every single trump appointee across the government, including the ones who attempt to insinuate themselves into permanent civil service employment in the interim.
    Escort them from the premises of my government at gunpoint under heavily armed guard and search their bank accounts and residences for stolen files and funds.
    Also, confiscate their passports and refuse their departure from the country until we can sort out who is who and what is what.
    I expect much of the files on servers at the State Department and the White House will have already been removed and downloaded on to Russian and Russian-proxy servers by the time the new President takes office.
    Of course, if trump is re-elected, not one republican in this country will be safe.

  1230. I’m watching fascist oligarch Bevin’s refusal to concede the Governorship in Kentucky for how it might serve as a warm-up for p refusing to concede the Presidency in the event of impeachment or the failure of the Republican Party to steal the election for him in 2020.
    I’m especially interested to see if p orders Barr and the FuckJustice Department to intervene on Bevin’s behalf with whatever bullshit “election irregularities” (read” some blacks and drag queens voted) Bevin concocts.
    They will come up with ever-refreshing, unimagined bullshit going forward, since they long ago exhausted the busting of all traditional political norms.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF-LPsCsdr8
    “I’m more worried about how he might lash out between losing in November and Inauguration Day.”
    Be assured that there will be no traditional transition. That precedent was put in place following the 2016 election.
    The Cabinet agencies will be stripped of all records, all files, computer and otherwise, and funds will go missing, in order to hide the massive sabotaging, traitorous criminal enterprise of the Trump Republican Party as it has wrecked out government.
    All records of communications with foreign governments will vanish.
    Should there be a new Democratic President, on day one he or she must issue an executive order firing every single trump appointee across the government, including the ones who attempt to insinuate themselves into permanent civil service employment in the interim.
    Escort them from the premises of my government at gunpoint under heavily armed guard and search their bank accounts and residences for stolen files and funds.
    Also, confiscate their passports and refuse their departure from the country until we can sort out who is who and what is what.
    I expect much of the files on servers at the State Department and the White House will have already been removed and downloaded on to Russian and Russian-proxy servers by the time the new President takes office.
    Of course, if trump is re-elected, not one republican in this country will be safe.

  1231. Demonization of trump’s enemies is now official U.S. Government policy:
    https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2019/11/paula-white-donald-trumps-new-white-house-adviser-ratchets-up-fake-news-rhetoric-denouncing-demonic-networks.html
    We’re in a fucking horror movie.
    Religious conservatives will get their religious war.
    They aren’t going to like it, because there is nothing more brutal and savage than a religious war.
    This grifter isn’t going to like her literal burning as a martyr to the bullshit Gods of the prosperity gospel.
    When accused of being a demon, become one.

  1232. Demonization of trump’s enemies is now official U.S. Government policy:
    https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2019/11/paula-white-donald-trumps-new-white-house-adviser-ratchets-up-fake-news-rhetoric-denouncing-demonic-networks.html
    We’re in a fucking horror movie.
    Religious conservatives will get their religious war.
    They aren’t going to like it, because there is nothing more brutal and savage than a religious war.
    This grifter isn’t going to like her literal burning as a martyr to the bullshit Gods of the prosperity gospel.
    When accused of being a demon, become one.

  1233. i suspect that this new precedent, where it’s acceptable for the current administration to the tools of the Exec branch to investigate the actions of the previous admin, is probably going to be something the GOP is going to regret having established.
    tee hee

  1234. i suspect that this new precedent, where it’s acceptable for the current administration to the tools of the Exec branch to investigate the actions of the previous admin, is probably going to be something the GOP is going to regret having established.
    tee hee

  1241. And you gotta love this
    Briskman is now one of the Supervisors for Algonkian County.
    Home of Trump National golf course. 🙂

  1242. And you gotta love this
    Briskman is now one of the Supervisors for Algonkian County.
    Home of Trump National golf course. 🙂

  1243. https://www.mardigrasparadetickets.com/pages/parades
    p has triple-bogeyed every hole on that course but somehow also holds the course record for best score.
    He’s made 27 hole-in-ones on the 13th, where the green consists of a huge hole in the ground hundreds of feet in diameter, with a flag at the bottom of it.
    He holds the record too for most balls kicked out of the rough. Once, he skipped the tee-off and all of the intervening shots, rode his cart in to the green and dropped the ball over his shoulder directly into the cup and a hole-in-one.
    He’s rigged up a wireless system on each of the 18 holes in which he can trigger the cup to reject the ball each time it goes in, until the opponent’s score is one over trump’s.
    The sprinklers come on every time his opponent is about to make a key putt.
    Holes on particularly difficult greens have been known to mysteriously move away from the opponents’ balls.
    Opponents’ drives from the tee have been known to be intercepted at the of their arcs by drones designed to look like seagulls, which is a two-stroke penalty.
    Trump has trained the course’s caddies to rip thunderous farts as his opponents start their back swings on the tee.
    Trump beat Chi Chi Rodriquez to death with his seven iron on the 18th hole, and when no punishment transpired, he decided to run for President and take his campaign to Fifth Avenue.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib6vz7ZltXU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRAKv1fXqss

  1244. https://www.mardigrasparadetickets.com/pages/parades
    p has triple-bogeyed every hole on that course but somehow also holds the course record for best score.
    He’s made 27 hole-in-ones on the 13th, where the green consists of a huge hole in the ground hundreds of feet in diameter, with a flag at the bottom of it.
    He holds the record too for most balls kicked out of the rough. Once, he skipped the tee-off and all of the intervening shots, rode his cart in to the green and dropped the ball over his shoulder directly into the cup and a hole-in-one.
    He’s rigged up a wireless system on each of the 18 holes in which he can trigger the cup to reject the ball each time it goes in, until the opponent’s score is one over trump’s.
    The sprinklers come on every time his opponent is about to make a key putt.
    Holes on particularly difficult greens have been known to mysteriously move away from the opponents’ balls.
    Opponents’ drives from the tee have been known to be intercepted at the of their arcs by drones designed to look like seagulls, which is a two-stroke penalty.
    Trump has trained the course’s caddies to rip thunderous farts as his opponents start their back swings on the tee.
    Trump beat Chi Chi Rodriquez to death with his seven iron on the 18th hole, and when no punishment transpired, he decided to run for President and take his campaign to Fifth Avenue.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib6vz7ZltXU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRAKv1fXqss

  1247. Mick Mulvaney floats in the biggest water hazard on the course wearing a snorkel and retrieves p’s errant shots, bringing the ball back to p in his mouth, like a trained dog.
    p trained Ben Carson to run out of the bushes on to the fairway and steal opponents’ well-placed drives. P then makes disparaging remarks about black people to impress his Russian guests.
    Lindsay Graham swings buck naked screaming like a howler monkey on a rope from a tree over the 17th green to distract opponent’s as they putt.
    Kellyanne Conway runs a putter-straightening and ball cleaning booth in the clubhouse.
    Rick Perry.
    That’s it, just Rick Perry.

  1248. Mick Mulvaney floats in the biggest water hazard on the course wearing a snorkel and retrieves p’s errant shots, bringing the ball back to p in his mouth, like a trained dog.
    p trained Ben Carson to run out of the bushes on to the fairway and steal opponents’ well-placed drives. P then makes disparaging remarks about black people to impress his Russian guests.
    Lindsay Graham swings buck naked screaming like a howler monkey on a rope from a tree over the 17th green to distract opponent’s as they putt.
    Kellyanne Conway runs a putter-straightening and ball cleaning booth in the clubhouse.
    Rick Perry.
    That’s it, just Rick Perry.

  1249. Mike Pence stands behind the p foursome on the 18th hole tee and yells “Abort” at the top of his lungs when Mitch McConnell takes a whack at the ball.

  1250. Mike Pence stands behind the p foursome on the 18th hole tee and yells “Abort” at the top of his lungs when Mitch McConnell takes a whack at the ball.

  1263. Rand Paul is being a bit of a disappointment to libertarians too.
    “Paul’s enthusiastic and near-perpetual support for Trump actions continues to bum out many libertarians—who had hoped Rand would turn out more like his father, former Rep. Ron Paul—and limited-government conservatives, for whom the Kentucky senator was a bright spot back when the Tea Party movement showed promise and principles. In the #MAGA era, Paul has become one of the biggest cheerleaders of Trump-style Republicanism and a tireless defender of the president’s perspective.”
    Rand Paul Wants Whistleblower Outed. Libertarians Want the Old Rand Paul Back

  1264. Rand Paul is being a bit of a disappointment to libertarians too.
    “Paul’s enthusiastic and near-perpetual support for Trump actions continues to bum out many libertarians—who had hoped Rand would turn out more like his father, former Rep. Ron Paul—and limited-government conservatives, for whom the Kentucky senator was a bright spot back when the Tea Party movement showed promise and principles. In the #MAGA era, Paul has become one of the biggest cheerleaders of Trump-style Republicanism and a tireless defender of the president’s perspective.”
    Rand Paul Wants Whistleblower Outed. Libertarians Want the Old Rand Paul Back

  1269. Ron Paul is a stone racist and loony gold bug. He also engages in the standard right wing grifting of the rubes.
    Rand Paul is no better, and never has been. If anything, he is more phony.
    Real glibertarians! Found at last.

  1270. Ron Paul is a stone racist and loony gold bug. He also engages in the standard right wing grifting of the rubes.
    Rand Paul is no better, and never has been. If anything, he is more phony.
    Real glibertarians! Found at last.

  1279. Why is Medicare For All aspirational, and that’s good. But a Republican Who Can Be Reasoned With isn’t similarly aspirational? Just seems like something odd there. (Says the Republican, albeit admittedly not one in Congress, who thinks he can be reasoned with.)

  1280. Why is Medicare For All aspirational, and that’s good. But a Republican Who Can Be Reasoned With isn’t similarly aspirational? Just seems like something odd there. (Says the Republican, albeit admittedly not one in Congress, who thinks he can be reasoned with.)

  1281. wj,
    whatever it is this good cloth coat republican ‘aspirational’ plan is, it is generally sold as ‘feasible’ (cf conversation above). i may be an old coot, but i have generally thought of feasible as somewhat orthogonal to rainbows.
    As Pierce (and yours truly) has stated, even Joe Biden’s health care plan has no chance of getting consideration in a moscow mitch senate.
    So the whole thing, it would seem, from your end is to somehow reach “middle of the roaders” under the belief that they can come around to a plan that even you admit has shortcomings.
    my approach is to appeal directly to those who can be moved by the message, who are generally of lower incomes, and are not all that connected to the political system.
    so it’s not about changing minds, it’s about getting them.
    but this yin and yang is a common thread wrt any political issue.

  1282. wj,
    whatever it is this good cloth coat republican ‘aspirational’ plan is, it is generally sold as ‘feasible’ (cf conversation above). i may be an old coot, but i have generally thought of feasible as somewhat orthogonal to rainbows.
    As Pierce (and yours truly) has stated, even Joe Biden’s health care plan has no chance of getting consideration in a moscow mitch senate.
    So the whole thing, it would seem, from your end is to somehow reach “middle of the roaders” under the belief that they can come around to a plan that even you admit has shortcomings.
    my approach is to appeal directly to those who can be moved by the message, who are generally of lower incomes, and are not all that connected to the political system.
    so it’s not about changing minds, it’s about getting them.
    but this yin and yang is a common thread wrt any political issue.

  1283. bobbyp,
    I agree, nothing will get passed until the Democrats control the Senate. That said, it becomes a matter of which proposed plan will bring in the most votes, does it not?
    Some (including, I think, you) argue that the most liberal plan will inspire more low income voters. Specifically the ones who aren’t already going to vote Democrat. Because it will benefit them more.
    Others, including me, observe that the poor tend to be seriously risk-averse. (Which is entirely sensible of them.) Which means they are going to prefer small steps, steps which show no sign of taking away any little thing they already have. Even if, on any objective analysis, the bigger change would benefit them more.

  1284. bobbyp,
    I agree, nothing will get passed until the Democrats control the Senate. That said, it becomes a matter of which proposed plan will bring in the most votes, does it not?
    Some (including, I think, you) argue that the most liberal plan will inspire more low income voters. Specifically the ones who aren’t already going to vote Democrat. Because it will benefit them more.
    Others, including me, observe that the poor tend to be seriously risk-averse. (Which is entirely sensible of them.) Which means they are going to prefer small steps, steps which show no sign of taking away any little thing they already have. Even if, on any objective analysis, the bigger change would benefit them more.

  1285. so it’s not about changing minds, it’s about getting them.
    Turnout in the 2016 election was 55%. So, there may be something to this.

  1286. so it’s not about changing minds, it’s about getting them.
    Turnout in the 2016 election was 55%. So, there may be something to this.

  1297. Why is Medicare For All aspirational, and that’s good. But a Republican Who Can Be Reasoned With isn’t similarly aspirational? Just seems like something odd there.
    Republicans Who Can Be Reasoned With are, for all intents and purposes, extinct. As an institution, the Party is one big shout out to bargaining in bad faith.
    Consensus is a two way street.

  1298. Why is Medicare For All aspirational, and that’s good. But a Republican Who Can Be Reasoned With isn’t similarly aspirational? Just seems like something odd there.
    Republicans Who Can Be Reasoned With are, for all intents and purposes, extinct. As an institution, the Party is one big shout out to bargaining in bad faith.
    Consensus is a two way street.

  1299. These people will murder.
    There’s somebody running around out there whose given name is actually “Dutch Sheets”.
    These simple things amuse me.

  1300. These people will murder.
    There’s somebody running around out there whose given name is actually “Dutch Sheets”.
    These simple things amuse me.

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