by Ugh
Someone said something about impeachment?
My only thought is that if the House makes this solely about Ukraine then it's a huge mistake.
(I guess my other thought is that this should have been done w/r/t W, but alas)
418 thoughts on “Chimpeach!”
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Of course making impeachment only about Ukraine would be a mistake. And making impeachment only about one phone call with its President would be a total blunder. But the Dems are perfectly capable of making the Byalistock and Blum blunder: mis-predicting the audience reaction.
A single act, however illegal or disgusting or treasonous, that can be undone or whose consequences can be mitigated, may seem to (some of) The American People like no big deal. A documented and publicized litany of all of He, Trump’s unconstitutional and assholish behavior, demonstrating his unfitness for office, might sway even the Deplorables — let alone the “moderates” or “swing voters” or “centrists” whose default always seems to be voting for Republicons unless there’s a strong reason not to.
All that said, Bill Clinton got impeached over a single, deplorable but not very consequential, act. And we got Dick and Dubya as a consequence. So who knows?
–TP
Of course making impeachment only about Ukraine would be a mistake. And making impeachment only about one phone call with its President would be a total blunder. But the Dems are perfectly capable of making the Byalistock and Blum blunder: mis-predicting the audience reaction.
A single act, however illegal or disgusting or treasonous, that can be undone or whose consequences can be mitigated, may seem to (some of) The American People like no big deal. A documented and publicized litany of all of He, Trump’s unconstitutional and assholish behavior, demonstrating his unfitness for office, might sway even the Deplorables — let alone the “moderates” or “swing voters” or “centrists” whose default always seems to be voting for Republicons unless there’s a strong reason not to.
All that said, Bill Clinton got impeached over a single, deplorable but not very consequential, act. And we got Dick and Dubya as a consequence. So who knows?
–TP
According to Pelosi herself, as distinguished from over-simplified media blathering and sensationalizing headline writers, the impeachment inquiry is about much more than just the Ukraine story:
From a NYT article yesterday:
And Ms. Pelosi said she had directed the chairmen of the six committees that have been investigating Mr. Trump to “proceed under that umbrella of impeachment inquiry.” In a closed-door meeting earlier in the day, she said the panels should put together their best cases on potentially impeachable offenses by the president and send them to the Judiciary Committee, according to two officials familiar with the conversation. That could potentially lay the groundwork for articles of impeachment based on the findings.
A lot of the media may want to let Clickbait and his enablers redirect their attention with shiny objects, but we don’t have to.
According to Pelosi herself, as distinguished from over-simplified media blathering and sensationalizing headline writers, the impeachment inquiry is about much more than just the Ukraine story:
From a NYT article yesterday:
And Ms. Pelosi said she had directed the chairmen of the six committees that have been investigating Mr. Trump to “proceed under that umbrella of impeachment inquiry.” In a closed-door meeting earlier in the day, she said the panels should put together their best cases on potentially impeachable offenses by the president and send them to the Judiciary Committee, according to two officials familiar with the conversation. That could potentially lay the groundwork for articles of impeachment based on the findings.
A lot of the media may want to let Clickbait and his enablers redirect their attention with shiny objects, but we don’t have to.
never fear. Schiff, a former prosecutor, has been making a list and checking it twice.
never fear. Schiff, a former prosecutor, has been making a list and checking it twice.
My sense is that
a) the House needs to make impeachment about more than whatever the whistleblower is complaining of. (Which is presumably something involving Ukraine, but far, far more than just the one phone call. However hard Trump is trying to narrow the focus to that.)
b) the House also needs to avoid the kitchen sink approach. Specify the various egregious, and quickly demonstrable, violations. But don’t spend the months it would take to cover everything actionable that he’s done. At the latest, make the impeachment a Christmas present for the Senate; though Thanksgiving would be better.
c) for most people, the simple fact of Trump using US government (i.e. taxpater) money to extort a foreign country to help his campaign will be all they really pick up on. The other stuff may matter to some Republican Senators, who don’t want to be on the other side when the next Democratic President comes along. But the biggie will be this one thing that their constituents can wrap their heads around.
My sense is that
a) the House needs to make impeachment about more than whatever the whistleblower is complaining of. (Which is presumably something involving Ukraine, but far, far more than just the one phone call. However hard Trump is trying to narrow the focus to that.)
b) the House also needs to avoid the kitchen sink approach. Specify the various egregious, and quickly demonstrable, violations. But don’t spend the months it would take to cover everything actionable that he’s done. At the latest, make the impeachment a Christmas present for the Senate; though Thanksgiving would be better.
c) for most people, the simple fact of Trump using US government (i.e. taxpater) money to extort a foreign country to help his campaign will be all they really pick up on. The other stuff may matter to some Republican Senators, who don’t want to be on the other side when the next Democratic President comes along. But the biggie will be this one thing that their constituents can wrap their heads around.
gotta say, i’m surprised they released that transcript. because it pretty clearly shows Trump tying US military sales to digging up dirt on Trump’s political opponents. Z says they’re nearly ready to buy more missiles and Trump immediately responds with “I want you to do me a favor…[dig up dirt]”. neither side seems confused about anything – they both understand what’s going on.
[and Z clearly knows how to play Trump]
it’s kindof remarkable.
gotta say, i’m surprised they released that transcript. because it pretty clearly shows Trump tying US military sales to digging up dirt on Trump’s political opponents. Z says they’re nearly ready to buy more missiles and Trump immediately responds with “I want you to do me a favor…[dig up dirt]”. neither side seems confused about anything – they both understand what’s going on.
[and Z clearly knows how to play Trump]
it’s kindof remarkable.
gotta say, i’m surprised they released that transcript.
Not gonna dig for cites but I’m pretty sure it’s not a transcript at all, it’s a version of someone’s notes.
There’s an old saying, something concerning a politician, as in “Is he lying” — “Well, is his mouth moving?”
With Clickbait, his mouth doesn’t even have to be moving. He lies by merely existing. And his enablers are all in.
From another angle, if what they released is that bad, imagine what the conversation *really* included!
(Thoughts gleaned from here there and everywhere, not excluding my own brain.)
gotta say, i’m surprised they released that transcript.
Not gonna dig for cites but I’m pretty sure it’s not a transcript at all, it’s a version of someone’s notes.
There’s an old saying, something concerning a politician, as in “Is he lying” — “Well, is his mouth moving?”
With Clickbait, his mouth doesn’t even have to be moving. He lies by merely existing. And his enablers are all in.
From another angle, if what they released is that bad, imagine what the conversation *really* included!
(Thoughts gleaned from here there and everywhere, not excluding my own brain.)
Is the call transcript/notes more than 140 characters? Yes?
Then Trump didn’t read it before sending it out.
A lack of sharpie-marks on it would be a hint of that also, too.
Is the call transcript/notes more than 140 characters? Yes?
Then Trump didn’t read it before sending it out.
A lack of sharpie-marks on it would be a hint of that also, too.
Not gonna dig for cites but I’m pretty sure it’s not a transcript at all, it’s a version of someone’s notes.
well, it’s a real-time document of the call generated by people (professional note-takers) whose job is to document stuff like this as it happens. i imagine it was cleaned up a bit – ‘ahhs’ and ‘umms’. but, assuming what we see is the original document (!), it’s probably fairly accurate. and barring an actual recording, it’s probably as good as we’re going to get.
and it’s crazy.
Not gonna dig for cites but I’m pretty sure it’s not a transcript at all, it’s a version of someone’s notes.
well, it’s a real-time document of the call generated by people (professional note-takers) whose job is to document stuff like this as it happens. i imagine it was cleaned up a bit – ‘ahhs’ and ‘umms’. but, assuming what we see is the original document (!), it’s probably fairly accurate. and barring an actual recording, it’s probably as good as we’re going to get.
and it’s crazy.
Agree that it’s probably as good (or bad) as we’re going to get.
But are you suggesting that there are actually people with integrity working in the WH these days? I.e. the notetakers…? And that no one messed with their work product before releasing it?
Pardon me while I take the next week off to stop laughing.
Oh, wait, I see you wrote “assuming what we see is the original…”
😉
Agree that it’s probably as good (or bad) as we’re going to get.
But are you suggesting that there are actually people with integrity working in the WH these days? I.e. the notetakers…? And that no one messed with their work product before releasing it?
Pardon me while I take the next week off to stop laughing.
Oh, wait, I see you wrote “assuming what we see is the original…”
😉
come to think of it…
the fact that notetakers were the only other people listed as being in the room for that call raises the possibility that one of them is the whistleblower.
come to think of it…
the fact that notetakers were the only other people listed as being in the room for that call raises the possibility that one of them is the whistleblower.
I keep getting a chuckle out of hearing the audio of Rump saying that the most remarkable thing about the call was that he was so nice, as though the controversy over it has to do with his being mean or something.
Oh, he was nice on the phone? Never mind!
I keep getting a chuckle out of hearing the audio of Rump saying that the most remarkable thing about the call was that he was so nice, as though the controversy over it has to do with his being mean or something.
Oh, he was nice on the phone? Never mind!
Or the whistleblower was in whatever part of the intelligence community (NSA?) monitors White House communications. Which seems rather more likely. Not sure if they keep recordings (the White House doesn’t tape the Oval Office since Watergate), but they actually might.
Or the whistleblower was in whatever part of the intelligence community (NSA?) monitors White House communications. Which seems rather more likely. Not sure if they keep recordings (the White House doesn’t tape the Oval Office since Watergate), but they actually might.
Or the whistleblower was in whatever part of the intelligence community (NSA?) monitors White House communications.
the notetakers could very well have been NSC staff (according to the disclaimer).
Or the whistleblower was in whatever part of the intelligence community (NSA?) monitors White House communications.
the notetakers could very well have been NSC staff (according to the disclaimer).
hairshirt: Oh, he was nice on the phone? Never mind!
He, Trump probably took his mob-boss lessons from Fat Tony D’Amico, the elaborately courteous mafioso in The Simpsons.
–TP
hairshirt: Oh, he was nice on the phone? Never mind!
He, Trump probably took his mob-boss lessons from Fat Tony D’Amico, the elaborately courteous mafioso in The Simpsons.
–TP
I’m still on the road ….. San Francisco.
Have I missed anything?
I’m still on the road ….. San Francisco.
Have I missed anything?
everything is fine.
acting DNI told Trump he’d quit if Trump tried to muzzle him at his Congressional testimony.
all good.
everything is fine.
acting DNI told Trump he’d quit if Trump tried to muzzle him at his Congressional testimony.
all good.
Have I missed anything?
shit show has gone from 7 to 9 on the meter. just make sure you get back for the finale. free popcorn awaits.
Have I missed anything?
shit show has gone from 7 to 9 on the meter. just make sure you get back for the finale. free popcorn awaits.
Oh, he was nice on the phone?
not only that…it was “absolutely perfect”! god bless our great leader.
Oh, he was nice on the phone?
not only that…it was “absolutely perfect”! god bless our great leader.
I hope the declaration of martial law, the arrest of all opposition to p and the Republican Party and the defaulting by the p Treasury Department and the Justice Department on the entire accumulated debt of the United States to fend off impeachment or even any further investigation of the fatal malignancy now killing America can be forestalled for a week so I can get home and warn that we are naively assuming that the rule of law is still operational and that we are inviting the full evil subhuman, savage, violent wrath of the soon to be butchered conservative movement.
I hate when my vacations are interrupted by the violent overthrow of the government of the country I’m traveling in.
We have no idea if the magnitude of Evil we are up against.
That the enemy seems ignorant and incompetent will only magnify the ruthless means they will use to kill all of us.
This is the set-up the conservative movement, the most dangerous piece of autocratic shit on the face of the Earth, has been waiting to enact.
This is a trap.
Trump is merely the snare and the blunt instrument.
I hope the declaration of martial law, the arrest of all opposition to p and the Republican Party and the defaulting by the p Treasury Department and the Justice Department on the entire accumulated debt of the United States to fend off impeachment or even any further investigation of the fatal malignancy now killing America can be forestalled for a week so I can get home and warn that we are naively assuming that the rule of law is still operational and that we are inviting the full evil subhuman, savage, violent wrath of the soon to be butchered conservative movement.
I hate when my vacations are interrupted by the violent overthrow of the government of the country I’m traveling in.
We have no idea if the magnitude of Evil we are up against.
That the enemy seems ignorant and incompetent will only magnify the ruthless means they will use to kill all of us.
This is the set-up the conservative movement, the most dangerous piece of autocratic shit on the face of the Earth, has been waiting to enact.
This is a trap.
Trump is merely the snare and the blunt instrument.
listened to Trump speak from NY on the way home tonight.
“the airing of the grievances”
listened to Trump speak from NY on the way home tonight.
“the airing of the grievances”
Hat top BJ commenter “Jay”:
Hat top BJ commenter “Jay”:
Pro forma. No one thought it was an honest offering.
Pro forma. No one thought it was an honest offering.
The transcribers left out 19 minutes of
“(incoherent babbling)”
The transcribers left out 19 minutes of
“(incoherent babbling)”
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a29235028/president-trump-un-press-conference-ukraine-mike-pence/
At some near approaching date, massive gunfire at Mar-a-Lago as p loyalists, including his vermin consiglieries in the Republican Party, the conservative vermin media, and his base murder the remaining decent officialdom attempting to restore the rule of law in defunct America.
With the exception of the subhuman conservative rat fuckers who have already signed lucrative contracts as they throw themselves over the sinking ship railing to continue fucking America up its dupe, dreamy-eyed ass for the easy grifter bucks.
They must be hunted down and terminated.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a29235028/president-trump-un-press-conference-ukraine-mike-pence/
At some near approaching date, massive gunfire at Mar-a-Lago as p loyalists, including his vermin consiglieries in the Republican Party, the conservative vermin media, and his base murder the remaining decent officialdom attempting to restore the rule of law in defunct America.
With the exception of the subhuman conservative rat fuckers who have already signed lucrative contracts as they throw themselves over the sinking ship railing to continue fucking America up its dupe, dreamy-eyed ass for the easy grifter bucks.
They must be hunted down and terminated.
And Republicans are immediately determined to exonerate him on the basis of the release of a ten minute précis of a half hour conversation, which is still pretty damning:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/09/trump-ukraine-republicans-defense/598831/
And Republicans are immediately determined to exonerate him on the basis of the release of a ten minute précis of a half hour conversation, which is still pretty damning:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/09/trump-ukraine-republicans-defense/598831/
Memorandum of Phone Conversation: call was 9:03 – 9:33
is that scheduled time or actual time? does it include time spent finishing writing the transcript? did it include time to establish the connection and get both speakers on the line, or did the stopwatch start when they first started talking?
AFAIK, nobody actually knows the process, so we don’t know what that time actually represents.
you can find other “TELCON NCS” readouts online – fascinating things, too. see if you think the times given there match the number of words.
Memorandum of Phone Conversation: call was 9:03 – 9:33
is that scheduled time or actual time? does it include time spent finishing writing the transcript? did it include time to establish the connection and get both speakers on the line, or did the stopwatch start when they first started talking?
AFAIK, nobody actually knows the process, so we don’t know what that time actually represents.
you can find other “TELCON NCS” readouts online – fascinating things, too. see if you think the times given there match the number of words.
And Democrats are immediately determined to impeach him on the basis of the release of a ten minute précis of a half hour conversation, which is still pretty innocuous stuff.
BTW, Schiff this morning said the whistleblower report “gives us some stuff to follow up on”. Translated, not much there.
Just the latest in a string of non smoking guns that Dems will hype. I dont remember now the last time I heard anything about the Mueller report.
There is a difference between being a dumbass and breaking the law.
And Democrats are immediately determined to impeach him on the basis of the release of a ten minute précis of a half hour conversation, which is still pretty innocuous stuff.
BTW, Schiff this morning said the whistleblower report “gives us some stuff to follow up on”. Translated, not much there.
Just the latest in a string of non smoking guns that Dems will hype. I dont remember now the last time I heard anything about the Mueller report.
There is a difference between being a dumbass and breaking the law.
which is still pretty innocuous stuff.
OMG. dude, Trump literally conditioned further military support on Z digging up dirt on Biden and the DNC and HRC’s 30K emails.
it’s right there at the bottom of page 2.
There is a difference between being a dumbass and breaking the law.
right. breaking the law is different from many things: cheese, a blue raincoat, the moon, love, cancer.
Trump broke the law.
which is still pretty innocuous stuff.
OMG. dude, Trump literally conditioned further military support on Z digging up dirt on Biden and the DNC and HRC’s 30K emails.
it’s right there at the bottom of page 2.
There is a difference between being a dumbass and breaking the law.
right. breaking the law is different from many things: cheese, a blue raincoat, the moon, love, cancer.
Trump broke the law.
Democrats are determined to investigate further to determine if impeachment is warranted.
Democrats are determined to investigate further to determine if impeachment is warranted.
here’s how it works
here’s how it works
And breaking the law isn’t required for impeachment.
And breaking the law isn’t required for impeachment.
BTW, Schiff this morning said the whistleblower report “gives us some stuff to follow up on”. Translated, not much there.
oh my, no.
Rep. Jackie Speier: “I can describe that [whistleblower] complaint as nothing short of explosive.”
Rep Swalwell: “The complaint itself is a five alarm concern”. and then he goes on to say that he can’t relate what he read in the transcript to the complaint itself because the DNI ‘will not allow’ it.
so they are clearly constrained in what they can say.
BTW, Schiff this morning said the whistleblower report “gives us some stuff to follow up on”. Translated, not much there.
oh my, no.
Rep. Jackie Speier: “I can describe that [whistleblower] complaint as nothing short of explosive.”
Rep Swalwell: “The complaint itself is a five alarm concern”. and then he goes on to say that he can’t relate what he read in the transcript to the complaint itself because the DNI ‘will not allow’ it.
so they are clearly constrained in what they can say.
There is a difference between being a dumbass and breaking the law.
Whatever.
Criminality or gross incompetence. Why choose just one, when the whole package is available?
Enough is enough.
ITMFA
There is a difference between being a dumbass and breaking the law.
Whatever.
Criminality or gross incompetence. Why choose just one, when the whole package is available?
Enough is enough.
ITMFA
There is a difference between being a dumbass and breaking the law.
In Trump’s case, the answer is BOTH.
There is a difference between being a dumbass and breaking the law.
In Trump’s case, the answer is BOTH.
The difference between a dumbass and a criminal is that even Marty would be embarrassed to support a criminal’s “(Republican) policies”. So it’s important to always interpret He, Trump’s dumbassery as not-criminal.
–TP
The difference between a dumbass and a criminal is that even Marty would be embarrassed to support a criminal’s “(Republican) policies”. So it’s important to always interpret He, Trump’s dumbassery as not-criminal.
–TP
now Devin Nunes, there’s a dumbass.
now Devin Nunes, there’s a dumbass.
Trump and Rudy G…
A very smoking gun indeed…
https://www.scribd.com/document/427562501/Whistleblower-Complaint-Unclassified#fullscreen&from_embed
Trump and Rudy G…
A very smoking gun indeed…
https://www.scribd.com/document/427562501/Whistleblower-Complaint-Unclassified#fullscreen&from_embed
Ghouliani and Rump seem to have a synergistic form of batshittery between them. If you could put them in a collider of some sort to smash them together with enough force, you would likely create a black hole of nuttiness from which no particle of sanity could escape.
Ghouliani and Rump seem to have a synergistic form of batshittery between them. If you could put them in a collider of some sort to smash them together with enough force, you would likely create a black hole of nuttiness from which no particle of sanity could escape.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/crowdstrike-the-truth-about-trumps-insane-ukraine-server-conspiracy?ref=scroll
https://www.thedailybeast.com/crowdstrike-the-truth-about-trumps-insane-ukraine-server-conspiracy?ref=scroll
I have no problem supporting the conservative policies I agree with no matter who is President. I have, always have, supported 100% the idea that if Trump does something illegal or treasonous he should be impeached.
I find it laughable that this conversation would be considered extraordinary between two world leaders. Are we really so naive that we think that this not so subtle exercise of enormous power, Trumps or Bidens, isnt the norm?
No one would be surprised, they are just thrilled to get something new to play on CNN.
I have no problem supporting the conservative policies I agree with no matter who is President. I have, always have, supported 100% the idea that if Trump does something illegal or treasonous he should be impeached.
I find it laughable that this conversation would be considered extraordinary between two world leaders. Are we really so naive that we think that this not so subtle exercise of enormous power, Trumps or Bidens, isnt the norm?
No one would be surprised, they are just thrilled to get something new to play on CNN.
“Trumps (sic) or Bidens (sic)” Ah, yes. The Biden narrative that Dear Leader has implanted in your head is (that’s all, just “is”).
“Trumps (sic) or Bidens (sic)” Ah, yes. The Biden narrative that Dear Leader has implanted in your head is (that’s all, just “is”).
it’s American’s first Infowars administration.
it’s American’s first Infowars administration.
need’s mor’e apostrophe’s
need’s mor’e apostrophe’s
I saw what Biden said on the evening news, like, I saw him say it. Dear leader didnt put it in my brain. Are you saying Biden didnt say it?
I saw what Biden said on the evening news, like, I saw him say it. Dear leader didnt put it in my brain. Are you saying Biden didnt say it?
While commission of a crime is not required for impeachment, the précis shows that the law was flat out broken.
It is a violation of Federal election law for a foreign entity (individual, company, or country) to try to influence a US election. That includes things like giving money, to a campaign or to a PAC. And it includes giving information to them as well. (But not selling stuff.)
It is also a violation to solicit a foreign entity to do so. Which, per the précis, Trump did multiple times. That précis is, in short, a confession. Period.
While commission of a crime is not required for impeachment, the précis shows that the law was flat out broken.
It is a violation of Federal election law for a foreign entity (individual, company, or country) to try to influence a US election. That includes things like giving money, to a campaign or to a PAC. And it includes giving information to them as well. (But not selling stuff.)
It is also a violation to solicit a foreign entity to do so. Which, per the précis, Trump did multiple times. That précis is, in short, a confession. Period.
I have, always have, supported 100% the idea that if Trump does something illegal or treasonous he should be impeached.
Is this a special rule you have specifically for Rump? (And isn’t treason illegal?)
Is there anything short of illegal (illegal meaning criminal or just illegal, like speeding?) that could justify impeachment? What about, say, gross incompetence? Keep in mind, the only objective requirement for impeachment is getting enough votes. Does this rule extend to removal from office?
I have, always have, supported 100% the idea that if Trump does something illegal or treasonous he should be impeached.
Is this a special rule you have specifically for Rump? (And isn’t treason illegal?)
Is there anything short of illegal (illegal meaning criminal or just illegal, like speeding?) that could justify impeachment? What about, say, gross incompetence? Keep in mind, the only objective requirement for impeachment is getting enough votes. Does this rule extend to removal from office?
Are you saying Biden didnt (sic) say it?
I don’t know what “it” is.
Are you saying Biden didnt (sic) say it?
I don’t know what “it” is.
I find it laughable that this conversation would be considered extraordinary between two world leaders.
Investigate the family of the guy who is highly likely to be my opponent a year from now, or no missiles for you.
What Joe Biden, or Hunter Biden, or anybody named Biden, did or said is not the issue. What Trump said and did is the issue.
Enough of this shit. The list of Trump’s impeachable offenses is a mile long. This is just the icing on top.
ITMFA
I find it laughable that this conversation would be considered extraordinary between two world leaders.
Investigate the family of the guy who is highly likely to be my opponent a year from now, or no missiles for you.
What Joe Biden, or Hunter Biden, or anybody named Biden, did or said is not the issue. What Trump said and did is the issue.
Enough of this shit. The list of Trump’s impeachable offenses is a mile long. This is just the icing on top.
ITMFA
I saw what Biden said on the evening news, like, I saw him say it.
groovy. Trump and Barr can have the FBI start an investigation into Biden any time they want. the allegations about Biden’s son are many years old. why haven’t they started that investigation?
i’ll tell you why: because they know there’s nothing there. and they also know the GOP base will be happy to freak out about it. which is handy because it would be mighty inconvenient for the GOP if the base actually paid attention to Trump’s corruption.
you’re being played.
see also: HRC’s emails.
why did Trump never open an investigation into her, after years of screaming about how corrupt she is?
because it’s a ruse to keep you cheering for team GOP.
you’re being played.
I saw what Biden said on the evening news, like, I saw him say it.
groovy. Trump and Barr can have the FBI start an investigation into Biden any time they want. the allegations about Biden’s son are many years old. why haven’t they started that investigation?
i’ll tell you why: because they know there’s nothing there. and they also know the GOP base will be happy to freak out about it. which is handy because it would be mighty inconvenient for the GOP if the base actually paid attention to Trump’s corruption.
you’re being played.
see also: HRC’s emails.
why did Trump never open an investigation into her, after years of screaming about how corrupt she is?
because it’s a ruse to keep you cheering for team GOP.
you’re being played.
I find it laughable that this conversation would be considered extraordinary between two world leaders.
And yet, a bunch of Presidential scholars say it is “unlike anything they have ever heard.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trumps-call-with-ukrainian-leader-is-unlike-anything-presidential-scholars-have-heard-before/2019/09/25/2165b13e-dfb9-11e9-8dc8-498eabc129a0_story.html
I find it laughable that this conversation would be considered extraordinary between two world leaders.
And yet, a bunch of Presidential scholars say it is “unlike anything they have ever heard.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trumps-call-with-ukrainian-leader-is-unlike-anything-presidential-scholars-have-heard-before/2019/09/25/2165b13e-dfb9-11e9-8dc8-498eabc129a0_story.html
I guess that’s why electronic documentation of the call was encrypted and placed on a server intended for highly sensitive information. Marty needs to talk to whoever did that and get them to calm down.
I guess that’s why electronic documentation of the call was encrypted and placed on a server intended for highly sensitive information. Marty needs to talk to whoever did that and get them to calm down.
I didnt say I thought Biden son should be investigated just the opposite. You are the one(s) being played.
HRC’s emails are no ruse.. She hired a company to set up a private server to hide her emails. She didnt use google, she didnt use the government servers. Because those are backed up and have retention policies that ensure she couldnt delete them. I am not sure even the GOP realize how intentional and premeditated that criminal act was.
I didnt say I thought Biden son should be investigated just the opposite. You are the one(s) being played.
HRC’s emails are no ruse.. She hired a company to set up a private server to hide her emails. She didnt use google, she didnt use the government servers. Because those are backed up and have retention policies that ensure she couldnt delete them. I am not sure even the GOP realize how intentional and premeditated that criminal act was.
I agree that HRC should be locked up and the key thrown away.
Now, what should we do about Trump?
I agree that HRC should be locked up and the key thrown away.
Now, what should we do about Trump?
HRC’s emails are no ruse.
then why haven’t Trump and Barr instructed the FBI to open an investigation into her? it’s not like he’s forgotten about her, he talks about her all the time.
but, no investigation.
why?
because there’s nothing there.
but dangling her effigy in front of the base it keeps y’all barking and howling.
you’re being played.
HRC’s emails are no ruse.
then why haven’t Trump and Barr instructed the FBI to open an investigation into her? it’s not like he’s forgotten about her, he talks about her all the time.
but, no investigation.
why?
because there’s nothing there.
but dangling her effigy in front of the base it keeps y’all barking and howling.
you’re being played.
To my knowledge it is not illegal for US presidents to blackmail foreign governments, just to do it for personal gain.
That he did so with money congress approved without attached strings is another matter (but probably common enough* to be open to dispute as far as impeachability goes).
*Iran-Contra did not lead to Reagan’s downfall for example
To my knowledge it is not illegal for US presidents to blackmail foreign governments, just to do it for personal gain.
That he did so with money congress approved without attached strings is another matter (but probably common enough* to be open to dispute as far as impeachability goes).
*Iran-Contra did not lead to Reagan’s downfall for example
it is “unlike anything they have ever heard.”
but it’s exactly what one would expect from a mobbed-up con-man and bankruptcy-addicted real-estate huckster.
thanks again, GOP. you’re the best.
it is “unlike anything they have ever heard.”
but it’s exactly what one would expect from a mobbed-up con-man and bankruptcy-addicted real-estate huckster.
thanks again, GOP. you’re the best.
then why haven’t Trump and Barr instructed the FBI to open an investigation into her?
Jim Comey and deep state. Duh.
then why haven’t Trump and Barr instructed the FBI to open an investigation into her?
Jim Comey and deep state. Duh.
‘deep state’ is the dark matter of Republican mythology – it binds and shapes the universe but nobody can see it directly.
‘deep state’ is the dark matter of Republican mythology – it binds and shapes the universe but nobody can see it directly.
To my knowledge it is not illegal for US presidents to blackmail foreign governments, just to do it for personal gain.
and personal gain is all there is in Trump’s side of the call. “Congratulations. You could be more appreciative to the US. I want you to do us a favor, though. Find dirt on Biden and the DNC. My people will call you about the favor. Don’t forget about Biden’s son. My people will call. Your country will improve. KTHXBYE”
and, we know from the complaint that the Ukranians knew – were explicitly told – that the only way they were going to get that call is if they talked about Biden.
it’s entirely about the upcoming election, and the past election [because he wants to discredit his nemesis, Mueller].
and we know that because Trump gave zero fucks about Biden’s son until Biden launched his campaign in April.
To my knowledge it is not illegal for US presidents to blackmail foreign governments, just to do it for personal gain.
and personal gain is all there is in Trump’s side of the call. “Congratulations. You could be more appreciative to the US. I want you to do us a favor, though. Find dirt on Biden and the DNC. My people will call you about the favor. Don’t forget about Biden’s son. My people will call. Your country will improve. KTHXBYE”
and, we know from the complaint that the Ukranians knew – were explicitly told – that the only way they were going to get that call is if they talked about Biden.
it’s entirely about the upcoming election, and the past election [because he wants to discredit his nemesis, Mueller].
and we know that because Trump gave zero fucks about Biden’s son until Biden launched his campaign in April.
Iran-Contra did not lead to Reagan’s downfall for example
A brief summary of the criminal and other legal actions following Iran-Contra.
In my lifetime, (R) administrations have been notable for (1) spending like drunken sailors without providing revenue to back it up and other forms of fiscal irresponsibility, (2) handing out favors to rich dudes like candy at Halloween, and (3) breaking the law. Not “but her emails” bullshit, but profound criminality. Nixon, Reagan, both Bushes, and now Trump.
I personally have had about enough of this crap.
ITMFA
Iran-Contra did not lead to Reagan’s downfall for example
A brief summary of the criminal and other legal actions following Iran-Contra.
In my lifetime, (R) administrations have been notable for (1) spending like drunken sailors without providing revenue to back it up and other forms of fiscal irresponsibility, (2) handing out favors to rich dudes like candy at Halloween, and (3) breaking the law. Not “but her emails” bullshit, but profound criminality. Nixon, Reagan, both Bushes, and now Trump.
I personally have had about enough of this crap.
ITMFA
My opinion of her email antics is based on my experience managing IT infrastructures, including email systems.im not sure why anyonelet her get away with it, I just know they did.
My opinion of her email antics is based on my experience managing IT infrastructures, including email systems.im not sure why anyonelet her get away with it, I just know they did.
you should probably tell Trump about this. seems like he and Barr could order the FBI to look into the matter – if they cared about it beyond using it as a bloody flag to wave in your face every time they need to distract you, that is.
you should probably tell Trump about this. seems like he and Barr could order the FBI to look into the matter – if they cared about it beyond using it as a bloody flag to wave in your face every time they need to distract you, that is.
it all comes back to Manafort…
it all comes back to Manafort…
The only thing remotely odd about Clinton’s email “antics” was having the server be physically in her home.
That was odd.
“Hiring a company” to “set up a private email server” is not, remotely, unusual. On-prem is not even that unusual, for folks who deal in information that is at all sensitive it is a common practice. “On-prem” doesn’t usually mean in your own house, that is pretty much the only thing that is odd. In a professional office is pretty normal.
She ought to have used government mail service. At the time she was in office, it actually was not a legal requirement. Now it is, then it wasn’t.
She provided access to the emails that were, in her estimation, related to her work. She did not provide those that were, in her estimation, private. “In her estimation” is fair game for challenge, IMO, but it is what it is. Apparently the full content of the server exists, in the form of backups maintained by a very well known 3rd party data backup provider.
It was a questionable thing to do. It was also a not-uncommon thing to do, even well into the period when it actually became illegal. Like, for instance, now.
Every damned issue, side issue, possible side issue, potentially possible side issue, about Clinton’s email practices has been gone over, over and over and over and over and over, with the best collection of fine-toothed combs the federal government and the coffers of the (R)’s and their parade of paranoid conspiracy mongers could come up with.
It’s fncking done. Done and done. Same with Benghazi, same with the whole list of Clinton scandals going back to Whitewater and the fabled cocaine airlift of Mena Arkansas.
HRC no longer holds any office. She isn’t going to hold any office, unless some future (D) POTUS gets her onto the SCOTUS just to wind up the conservative world. Which would entertain the hell out of me, but it’s not likely to happen.
Let it freaking go. Lighten your load. Feel the sunshine and breathe the fresh air, and let it freaking go.
ITMFA
The only thing remotely odd about Clinton’s email “antics” was having the server be physically in her home.
That was odd.
“Hiring a company” to “set up a private email server” is not, remotely, unusual. On-prem is not even that unusual, for folks who deal in information that is at all sensitive it is a common practice. “On-prem” doesn’t usually mean in your own house, that is pretty much the only thing that is odd. In a professional office is pretty normal.
She ought to have used government mail service. At the time she was in office, it actually was not a legal requirement. Now it is, then it wasn’t.
She provided access to the emails that were, in her estimation, related to her work. She did not provide those that were, in her estimation, private. “In her estimation” is fair game for challenge, IMO, but it is what it is. Apparently the full content of the server exists, in the form of backups maintained by a very well known 3rd party data backup provider.
It was a questionable thing to do. It was also a not-uncommon thing to do, even well into the period when it actually became illegal. Like, for instance, now.
Every damned issue, side issue, possible side issue, potentially possible side issue, about Clinton’s email practices has been gone over, over and over and over and over and over, with the best collection of fine-toothed combs the federal government and the coffers of the (R)’s and their parade of paranoid conspiracy mongers could come up with.
It’s fncking done. Done and done. Same with Benghazi, same with the whole list of Clinton scandals going back to Whitewater and the fabled cocaine airlift of Mena Arkansas.
HRC no longer holds any office. She isn’t going to hold any office, unless some future (D) POTUS gets her onto the SCOTUS just to wind up the conservative world. Which would entertain the hell out of me, but it’s not likely to happen.
Let it freaking go. Lighten your load. Feel the sunshine and breathe the fresh air, and let it freaking go.
ITMFA
the touch about moving the transcript from where these things usually stay to a classified server is nice. and i’d like to see the associated redaction.
blahblahbidenblah
the touch about moving the transcript from where these things usually stay to a classified server is nice. and i’d like to see the associated redaction.
blahblahbidenblah
I wonder why, if what we have is something that is politically sensitive (rather than national security sensitive), there is any redaction justified at all. Perhaps the tame lawyers will produce some kind of bogus rationale….
I wonder why, if what we have is something that is politically sensitive (rather than national security sensitive), there is any redaction justified at all. Perhaps the tame lawyers will produce some kind of bogus rationale….
I didn’t bring her up russell. But a person getting an on premise mail server to process personal mail is odd, to process government mail is far beyond unusual.
But I dont ever bring it up.
I didn’t bring her up russell. But a person getting an on premise mail server to process personal mail is odd, to process government mail is far beyond unusual.
But I dont ever bring it up.
IIRC, Congress got to see (but not keep) the unredacted version before the redacted version was made public.
IIRC, Congress got to see (but not keep) the unredacted version before the redacted version was made public.
somebody’s life is about to start sucking.
somebody’s life is about to start sucking.
Regarding the precis of the call being nothing unusual between heads of state, I think it would depend which countries they came from, and to what extent the rule of law obtains in those countries. In any developed nation, no sensible head of state would ever have risked giving a hostage to fortune with this kind of thing, if he knew anyone else was listening – and someone else is always listening to heads of state in countries with the rule of law.
I saw what Biden said on the evening news, like, I saw him say it. Dear leader didnt put it in my brain. Are you saying Biden didnt say it?
Marty, I’m just catching up on all this, trying to make sense of what has been said or not said. I haven’t heard elsewhere of anything significant Biden said, on the evening news or elsewhere. Can you tell me what it was?
Regarding the precis of the call being nothing unusual between heads of state, I think it would depend which countries they came from, and to what extent the rule of law obtains in those countries. In any developed nation, no sensible head of state would ever have risked giving a hostage to fortune with this kind of thing, if he knew anyone else was listening – and someone else is always listening to heads of state in countries with the rule of law.
I saw what Biden said on the evening news, like, I saw him say it. Dear leader didnt put it in my brain. Are you saying Biden didnt say it?
Marty, I’m just catching up on all this, trying to make sense of what has been said or not said. I haven’t heard elsewhere of anything significant Biden said, on the evening news or elsewhere. Can you tell me what it was?
But I dont ever bring it up.
LOL.
cleek introduced the topic in this thread. or, actually, Trump did, cleek was just citing it.
But “don’t ever” is, perhaps, a… stretch.
The whole government comms thing, certainly in the period under discussion, was kind of a mess. Powell used his AOL account. Clinton’s server was probably more secure.
I’m happy to never speak of it again.
But I dont ever bring it up.
LOL.
cleek introduced the topic in this thread. or, actually, Trump did, cleek was just citing it.
But “don’t ever” is, perhaps, a… stretch.
The whole government comms thing, certainly in the period under discussion, was kind of a mess. Powell used his AOL account. Clinton’s server was probably more secure.
I’m happy to never speak of it again.
The excellent Emptywheel on questions not asked of Maguire yesterday:
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/09/26/the-intelligence-issues-the-house-intelligence-committee-largely-ignored/
But there were three other key issues Maguire should not have been able to dodge.
First is the allegation that Trump moved the summary of this call to the covert communications system to hide the improper nature of the call. The whistleblower complaint said that this is not the first time the White House has done so. This is a clear abuse of the legal status of covert operations dictated by the National Security Act, something for which Maguire has direct responsibility. Covert operations must be communicated, by law, to at least the Gang of Eight in Congress. That Trump has politicized and misused this system discredits a core means of accountability for the White House, on Maguire’s job directly oversees. And yet he wasn’t asked how Trump’s actions undermine the legally mandated system of covert communications.
Then there’s the fact that Trump is premising policy decisions not on the best intelligence, but instead on how he can derive personal benefit from them. His doing so is a core abuse of presidential power. But — as I noted this morning — it also robs American citizens of the benefits the entire intelligence system is supposed to ensure. Maguire admittedly cannot force the President to make the right decisions. But the repercussions of premising policy decisions on personal gain for the national security of the US should be a concern of Maguire’s. That wasn’t mentioned either.
Finally, there’s the allegation that someone without clearance and entirely outside of the intelligence community was being asked to share and act on classified information derived from the intelligence community. Maguire at one point claimed that Trump can do whatever he wants with his personal lawyer and that such discussions would be privileged (after, at another point, dodging a question because he’s not a lawyer). That’s the height of absurdity. Rudy’s pursuit of policy actions has nothing to do with his role as Trump’s personal lawyer. And as the DOJ IG complaint against Jim Comey makes clear that sharing even retroactively confidential information with your personal lawyers — as Comey was scolded for doing — is not permissible. Yes, it’s true that as President Trump can declassify anything he wants (though Comey was original classification authority for the information he shared with his own lawyers), but others in the IC cannot share information with an uncleared person without formal declassification, or they risk their own legal troubles.
The excellent Emptywheel on questions not asked of Maguire yesterday:
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/09/26/the-intelligence-issues-the-house-intelligence-committee-largely-ignored/
But there were three other key issues Maguire should not have been able to dodge.
First is the allegation that Trump moved the summary of this call to the covert communications system to hide the improper nature of the call. The whistleblower complaint said that this is not the first time the White House has done so. This is a clear abuse of the legal status of covert operations dictated by the National Security Act, something for which Maguire has direct responsibility. Covert operations must be communicated, by law, to at least the Gang of Eight in Congress. That Trump has politicized and misused this system discredits a core means of accountability for the White House, on Maguire’s job directly oversees. And yet he wasn’t asked how Trump’s actions undermine the legally mandated system of covert communications.
Then there’s the fact that Trump is premising policy decisions not on the best intelligence, but instead on how he can derive personal benefit from them. His doing so is a core abuse of presidential power. But — as I noted this morning — it also robs American citizens of the benefits the entire intelligence system is supposed to ensure. Maguire admittedly cannot force the President to make the right decisions. But the repercussions of premising policy decisions on personal gain for the national security of the US should be a concern of Maguire’s. That wasn’t mentioned either.
Finally, there’s the allegation that someone without clearance and entirely outside of the intelligence community was being asked to share and act on classified information derived from the intelligence community. Maguire at one point claimed that Trump can do whatever he wants with his personal lawyer and that such discussions would be privileged (after, at another point, dodging a question because he’s not a lawyer). That’s the height of absurdity. Rudy’s pursuit of policy actions has nothing to do with his role as Trump’s personal lawyer. And as the DOJ IG complaint against Jim Comey makes clear that sharing even retroactively confidential information with your personal lawyers — as Comey was scolded for doing — is not permissible. Yes, it’s true that as President Trump can declassify anything he wants (though Comey was original classification authority for the information he shared with his own lawyers), but others in the IC cannot share information with an uncleared person without formal declassification, or they risk their own legal troubles.
“My only thought is that if the House makes this solely about Ukraine then it’s a huge mistake.
(I guess my other thought is that this should have been done w/r/t W, but alas)”
W was and is part of the establishment. Impeach him and who else are you going to impeach? Ukrainegate has that narrow specificity that makes it ideal. It’s about a President using his Presidential foreign policy power not to murder people or torture them or lie about reasons to launch a war or other such peccadillos, but to gather dirt about a powerful member of the opposing party because he might be your future opponent in 2020..
Al Capone on tax evasion. This is America.
“My only thought is that if the House makes this solely about Ukraine then it’s a huge mistake.
(I guess my other thought is that this should have been done w/r/t W, but alas)”
W was and is part of the establishment. Impeach him and who else are you going to impeach? Ukrainegate has that narrow specificity that makes it ideal. It’s about a President using his Presidential foreign policy power not to murder people or torture them or lie about reasons to launch a war or other such peccadillos, but to gather dirt about a powerful member of the opposing party because he might be your future opponent in 2020..
Al Capone on tax evasion. This is America.
If you put all of Trump’s crimes in the impeachment, it’ll be the size of Crime and Punishment.
Probably need to translate from the original Russian also, too.
If you put all of Trump’s crimes in the impeachment, it’ll be the size of Crime and Punishment.
Probably need to translate from the original Russian also, too.
This is America.
and it always has been.
if you are expecting Switzerland, you’re going to need to adjust your expectations.
This is America.
and it always has been.
if you are expecting Switzerland, you’re going to need to adjust your expectations.
This is America.
and it always has been.
if you are expecting Switzerland, you’re going to need to adjust your expectations.
Orson Welles in The Third Man:
This is America.
and it always has been.
if you are expecting Switzerland, you’re going to need to adjust your expectations.
Orson Welles in The Third Man:
hey, also good chocolate!
hey, also good chocolate!
GftNC: let’s not forget, though: correlation is not causation. 😉
I.e., because one culture has insane levels of crime and also insane levels of creativity doesn’t necessarily mean that one “caused” the other, ditto Switzerland’s dullness. Maybe (just to take the first alternative that comes to mind) it’s just because the Italians were as insanely creative in art as they were in crime, while the Swiss were just kind of bland either way.
GftNC: let’s not forget, though: correlation is not causation. 😉
I.e., because one culture has insane levels of crime and also insane levels of creativity doesn’t necessarily mean that one “caused” the other, ditto Switzerland’s dullness. Maybe (just to take the first alternative that comes to mind) it’s just because the Italians were as insanely creative in art as they were in crime, while the Swiss were just kind of bland either way.
correlation is not causation
Amen, sister, amen!
Not to say that looking at correlations isn’t a good first step in looking for causation. But it’s only a first step, not sufficient in itself. There’s a whole lot of additional work required to actually find causation.
correlation is not causation
Amen, sister, amen!
Not to say that looking at correlations isn’t a good first step in looking for causation. But it’s only a first step, not sufficient in itself. There’s a whole lot of additional work required to actually find causation.
now if Fox News loses faith in Trump he’s done for.
and wouldn’t that be lovely…
now if Fox News loses faith in Trump he’s done for.
and wouldn’t that be lovely…
The quality of Swiss chocolate is openly disputed outside Swiss borders.
As is the invention of the cuckoo clock btw.
(and the alphorn got appropriated as well and historically quite late).
The quality of Swiss chocolate is openly disputed outside Swiss borders.
As is the invention of the cuckoo clock btw.
(and the alphorn got appropriated as well and historically quite late).
now if Fox News loses faith in Trump he’s done for.
and wouldn’t that be lovely…
The challenge for them is twofold. First, this is going to be too big to simply ignore, or to refrain from talking about the charges and the evidence presented. Even if they cherry-pick the evidence and spin like mad, some reality is likely to seep thru. Especially with Trump taking the position of stipulating the facts and then arguing that what he admits to doing was OK.
Second, suppose the Senate actually votes to remove Trump. Admittedly that looks unlikely at the moment, but there are some signs that a cascade might not be impossible. So suppose. Then Fox News can’t simply claim partisanship was all it was. And if they haven’t given their viewers a clue about how things are going, they lose all credibility with their audience — which the business simply cannot afford. (Note the management comments on the theme of “we were here before Trump, and we’ll be here after him.”)
So they are going to be stuck making at least some gestures towards reporting reality. Even if it means swapping out some of their Trump fanboys for less stridently pro-Trump opinion presenters.
now if Fox News loses faith in Trump he’s done for.
and wouldn’t that be lovely…
The challenge for them is twofold. First, this is going to be too big to simply ignore, or to refrain from talking about the charges and the evidence presented. Even if they cherry-pick the evidence and spin like mad, some reality is likely to seep thru. Especially with Trump taking the position of stipulating the facts and then arguing that what he admits to doing was OK.
Second, suppose the Senate actually votes to remove Trump. Admittedly that looks unlikely at the moment, but there are some signs that a cascade might not be impossible. So suppose. Then Fox News can’t simply claim partisanship was all it was. And if they haven’t given their viewers a clue about how things are going, they lose all credibility with their audience — which the business simply cannot afford. (Note the management comments on the theme of “we were here before Trump, and we’ll be here after him.”)
So they are going to be stuck making at least some gestures towards reporting reality. Even if it means swapping out some of their Trump fanboys for less stridently pro-Trump opinion presenters.
Why would I think that there might be a cascade? This (from, be it noted, Fox News):
When there are that many who think they should vote to remove Trump, it won’t take that many growing a spine to get the rest to believe they have “sufficient cover” to do so.
Why would I think that there might be a cascade? This (from, be it noted, Fox News):
When there are that many who think they should vote to remove Trump, it won’t take that many growing a spine to get the rest to believe they have “sufficient cover” to do so.
The quality of Swiss chocolate is openly disputed outside Swiss borders.
As is the invention of the cuckoo clock btw.
OK, but I draw the line at Ricolas!
The quality of Swiss chocolate is openly disputed outside Swiss borders.
As is the invention of the cuckoo clock btw.
OK, but I draw the line at Ricolas!
When there are that many who think they should vote to remove Trump, it won’t take that many growing a spine to get the rest to believe they have “sufficient cover” to do so.
A question to which I’m sure we will never have a complete answer is: in how many directions do they need “cover”? They (for various values of “they”) need cover with their voters, they need cover with their big U.S. donors, they need cover with, well, who knows….
When there are that many who think they should vote to remove Trump, it won’t take that many growing a spine to get the rest to believe they have “sufficient cover” to do so.
A question to which I’m sure we will never have a complete answer is: in how many directions do they need “cover”? They (for various values of “they”) need cover with their voters, they need cover with their big U.S. donors, they need cover with, well, who knows….
Maybe (just to take the first alternative that comes to mind) it’s just because the Italians were as insanely creative in art as they were in crime, while the Swiss were just kind of bland either way.
Yup, personally I always thought that the conditions which allowed for such creativity, also allowed for creativity and room for manoeuvre in villainy, which is what I guess you are saying. But of course, Harry Lime was engaging in special pleading, to excuse his own villainy.
On the chocolate question, FWIW I believe it is currently a toss-up between French and Belgian…
Maybe (just to take the first alternative that comes to mind) it’s just because the Italians were as insanely creative in art as they were in crime, while the Swiss were just kind of bland either way.
Yup, personally I always thought that the conditions which allowed for such creativity, also allowed for creativity and room for manoeuvre in villainy, which is what I guess you are saying. But of course, Harry Lime was engaging in special pleading, to excuse his own villainy.
On the chocolate question, FWIW I believe it is currently a toss-up between French and Belgian…
OT, but for anyone interested, on tonight’s Amanpour & Co. on PBS, the second of the three segments is Christiane interviewing Ta-Nehisi Coates. I guess he’s got a new book out.
OT, but for anyone interested, on tonight’s Amanpour & Co. on PBS, the second of the three segments is Christiane interviewing Ta-Nehisi Coates. I guess he’s got a new book out.
Heaven is where the cooks are French, the police are English, the mechanics are German, the bankers are Swiss, and the lovers are Italian.
Hell is where the cooks are English, the police are German, the lovers are Swiss, the mechanics are French and the bankers are Italian.
Mix and match to suit your own prejudices.
Heaven is where the cooks are French, the police are English, the mechanics are German, the bankers are Swiss, and the lovers are Italian.
Hell is where the cooks are English, the police are German, the lovers are Swiss, the mechanics are French and the bankers are Italian.
Mix and match to suit your own prejudices.
Also OT, but again on Media, have just seen that Channel 4 News last night won an International Emmy for Data, Democracy and Dirty Tricks: The Cambridge Analytica Scandal. They deserve it, as Carole Cadwalladr has deserved all the awards she has won for the same subject, (and IMO she and the NYT should have won the Pulitzer not just been finalists!).
Also OT, but again on Media, have just seen that Channel 4 News last night won an International Emmy for Data, Democracy and Dirty Tricks: The Cambridge Analytica Scandal. They deserve it, as Carole Cadwalladr has deserved all the awards she has won for the same subject, (and IMO she and the NYT should have won the Pulitzer not just been finalists!).
it’s just because the Italians were as insanely creative in art as they were in crime, while the Swiss were just kind of bland either way.
I just always assumed that the Swiss, living in a nearly vertical environment, were simply out of breath.
it’s just because the Italians were as insanely creative in art as they were in crime, while the Swiss were just kind of bland either way.
I just always assumed that the Swiss, living in a nearly vertical environment, were simply out of breath.
You have to read this to believe it. Madness.”
You have to read this to believe it. Madness.”
High on their own supply.
High on their own supply.
It actually kind of offends me that we, as a nation, have to afford Trump, Giuliani, Barr, and the long long list of et al’s the respect and courtesy of legal proceedings like impeachment etc.
They afford no such respect to anyone or anything, anywhere.
I wish we could simply throw them the hell out. Bodily eject them from office and from any position or access to any position of public responsibility.
Just GTFO, now. Go away, don’t come back.
I recognize and respect the need to observe the requirements of the rule of law, so that we don’t all descend to the level of these clowns. But it does gall me.
I can’t wait until our public conversation is about something other than Donald Fncking Trump and his band of merry grifters.
Soon come. May it be so.
It actually kind of offends me that we, as a nation, have to afford Trump, Giuliani, Barr, and the long long list of et al’s the respect and courtesy of legal proceedings like impeachment etc.
They afford no such respect to anyone or anything, anywhere.
I wish we could simply throw them the hell out. Bodily eject them from office and from any position or access to any position of public responsibility.
Just GTFO, now. Go away, don’t come back.
I recognize and respect the need to observe the requirements of the rule of law, so that we don’t all descend to the level of these clowns. But it does gall me.
I can’t wait until our public conversation is about something other than Donald Fncking Trump and his band of merry grifters.
Soon come. May it be so.
the day after Trump leaves DC, the entire GOP will be like “Trump? Nah, we never supported him. That was just your imagination.”
and they will never bring him up again.
the day after Trump leaves DC, the entire GOP will be like “Trump? Nah, we never supported him. That was just your imagination.”
and they will never bring him up again.
You mean Trump the Democrat brought down by the heroic GOP?
You mean Trump the Democrat brought down by the heroic GOP?
and they will never bring him up again.
Yup. Just look how they disappeared George W. Bush. Stalin couldn’t have done it better.
and they will never bring him up again.
Yup. Just look how they disappeared George W. Bush. Stalin couldn’t have done it better.
“There’s a difference between being a dumbass and breaking the law.”
As your attorney, Marty, I’d counsel you to take the insanity plea while it’s on the table.
“There’s a difference between being a dumbass and breaking the law.”
As your attorney, Marty, I’d counsel you to take the insanity plea while it’s on the table.
Janie,
they need cover with their big U.S. donors,
I’m not so sure. Who are their big donors and what do they want that the generic Republican won’t give them?
They may be happy just to get rid of Trump.
Janie,
they need cover with their big U.S. donors,
I’m not so sure. Who are their big donors and what do they want that the generic Republican won’t give them?
They may be happy just to get rid of Trump.
I wish we could simply throw them the hell out. Bodily eject them from office and from any position or access to any position of public responsibility.
russell, forgive me for saying so, but you are guilty of thinking small. What you want is for them to be exiled (take asylum) . . . in Honduras.
Now you could argue that Honduras is rather small, and they are quite numerous. But consider, how long would they be numerous once they arrived? Not that they can persuasively object on those grounds, since they have been advocating forcing women and children seeking asylum here be redirected there.
I wish we could simply throw them the hell out. Bodily eject them from office and from any position or access to any position of public responsibility.
russell, forgive me for saying so, but you are guilty of thinking small. What you want is for them to be exiled (take asylum) . . . in Honduras.
Now you could argue that Honduras is rather small, and they are quite numerous. But consider, how long would they be numerous once they arrived? Not that they can persuasively object on those grounds, since they have been advocating forcing women and children seeking asylum here be redirected there.
Who are their big donors and what do they want that the generic Republican won’t give them?
They may be happy just to get rid of Trump.
Especially since it looks like keeping Trump for another year might be a formula for getting (oh, the horror!) a President Warren shortly thereafter. Complete with a Democratic Senate to allow her to enact her agenda. Getting rid of Trump is actually looking more and more like a priority for them.
Who are their big donors and what do they want that the generic Republican won’t give them?
They may be happy just to get rid of Trump.
Especially since it looks like keeping Trump for another year might be a formula for getting (oh, the horror!) a President Warren shortly thereafter. Complete with a Democratic Senate to allow her to enact her agenda. Getting rid of Trump is actually looking more and more like a priority for them.
Ejecting Trump, Giuliani, Barr, et al., is a worthy goal.
But yes, think bigger. Have NASA shoot them into the Sun.
Why, if someone suggests to Trump that he can be the new “Sun King”, he might even sign an executive order to that effect.
(p.s. my mistake in misremembering the joke above; it should have been ‘Heaven is …all organized by the Swiss; Hell is…all organized by the Italians’. Mea culpa)
Ejecting Trump, Giuliani, Barr, et al., is a worthy goal.
But yes, think bigger. Have NASA shoot them into the Sun.
Why, if someone suggests to Trump that he can be the new “Sun King”, he might even sign an executive order to that effect.
(p.s. my mistake in misremembering the joke above; it should have been ‘Heaven is …all organized by the Swiss; Hell is…all organized by the Italians’. Mea culpa)
Gosh, I just finished the whistleblower’s letter, which I assume you all did long ago. It’s really hard to see how this doesn’t finally do for him (assuming it’s all corroborated), but looking at the Five38 polls, I see his approval at the moment is still going up. Can a combo of his tweets and alt-right media ensure that his base disbelieves all this, and still supports him? Which presumably would stop the Republicans deserting him en masse and still give him a shot at winning in 2020. Never say never: nothing would surprise me any more.
Gosh, I just finished the whistleblower’s letter, which I assume you all did long ago. It’s really hard to see how this doesn’t finally do for him (assuming it’s all corroborated), but looking at the Five38 polls, I see his approval at the moment is still going up. Can a combo of his tweets and alt-right media ensure that his base disbelieves all this, and still supports him? Which presumably would stop the Republicans deserting him en masse and still give him a shot at winning in 2020. Never say never: nothing would surprise me any more.
It’s really hard to see how this doesn’t finally do for him (assuming it’s all corroborated)
First, it’s already been corroborated. By Trump’s own statements.
Second, for a huge number of Trump fans, reality is ignored whenever it conflicts with the Trump statement (spin) of the moment. So the real question is, how many Trump supporters are that divorced from reality?
My guess (pulled entirely out of the air) is, about half. Which is to say, about 20% of the voting population. Big enough to be a serious problem for the nation going forward. But probably not enough to save him.
It’s really hard to see how this doesn’t finally do for him (assuming it’s all corroborated)
First, it’s already been corroborated. By Trump’s own statements.
Second, for a huge number of Trump fans, reality is ignored whenever it conflicts with the Trump statement (spin) of the moment. So the real question is, how many Trump supporters are that divorced from reality?
My guess (pulled entirely out of the air) is, about half. Which is to say, about 20% of the voting population. Big enough to be a serious problem for the nation going forward. But probably not enough to save him.
wj, I meant if it’s corroborated that, as the letter says, several people told the whistle-blower about several of the detailed steps, including but not limited to the cover up. And as regards your second para: exactly. Lastly, my own guess, based on past events (like Mueller) is that it might be more than 20%, but I hope I’m wrong. Perhaps if both Fox and enough R pols turn against him that might do it, but I’m not holding my breath.
wj, I meant if it’s corroborated that, as the letter says, several people told the whistle-blower about several of the detailed steps, including but not limited to the cover up. And as regards your second para: exactly. Lastly, my own guess, based on past events (like Mueller) is that it might be more than 20%, but I hope I’m wrong. Perhaps if both Fox and enough R pols turn against him that might do it, but I’m not holding my breath.
If the New York Times and lots of other media can do it, why not me?
A couple of weeks ago I reported that “Trump is Love” from rural western New York State.
I took a drive to the foothills of the western mountains of Maine today — not peak color yet, but a gorgeous day. This is the back of the back of the backwoods, beautiful, raggedy old farmhouses (“big house middle house back house barn”), falling down mobile homes, “towns” that consist of a couple of stop signs, places where you can drive seemingly for hours without seeing anything built after about 1890. (Totally guessing. But I mean: certainly no McDonald’s…. 😉
One sign: “Thank God for Trump.”
Another sign: “Crooked Hillary” — above a picture of a woman behind bars — above “Lock her up.”
This countryside, and ditto through northern NH and VT, was littered with Clickbait signs when I made my Ohio drive in 2016. At the time — a couple of months before the electioin — I thought well, too bad for them. Heh.
The fact that this criminal, greedy, narcissistic, vicious fnckwad has convinced these people that he’s somehow one of them, or fights for their interests, or gives more of a fnck about them than he does about the ants under his feet (if any) or the germs on his tiny fingers is a phenomenon for the ages.
I know, racism. I suppose that’s part of it, but it can’t be all of it. I suppose they’ve been convinced that the dirty liberals will destroy them with socialism if their hero doesn’t stand in the way. I don’t think they’re going to care about this Ukraine and national security shit any more than they cared about the pussy grabbing and all the rest of it.
Hopefully — as wj and GftNC suggest — there will be enough people who do. But we’re going to be a long time digging out of the mess, if indeed we get the chance.
If the New York Times and lots of other media can do it, why not me?
A couple of weeks ago I reported that “Trump is Love” from rural western New York State.
I took a drive to the foothills of the western mountains of Maine today — not peak color yet, but a gorgeous day. This is the back of the back of the backwoods, beautiful, raggedy old farmhouses (“big house middle house back house barn”), falling down mobile homes, “towns” that consist of a couple of stop signs, places where you can drive seemingly for hours without seeing anything built after about 1890. (Totally guessing. But I mean: certainly no McDonald’s…. 😉
One sign: “Thank God for Trump.”
Another sign: “Crooked Hillary” — above a picture of a woman behind bars — above “Lock her up.”
This countryside, and ditto through northern NH and VT, was littered with Clickbait signs when I made my Ohio drive in 2016. At the time — a couple of months before the electioin — I thought well, too bad for them. Heh.
The fact that this criminal, greedy, narcissistic, vicious fnckwad has convinced these people that he’s somehow one of them, or fights for their interests, or gives more of a fnck about them than he does about the ants under his feet (if any) or the germs on his tiny fingers is a phenomenon for the ages.
I know, racism. I suppose that’s part of it, but it can’t be all of it. I suppose they’ve been convinced that the dirty liberals will destroy them with socialism if their hero doesn’t stand in the way. I don’t think they’re going to care about this Ukraine and national security shit any more than they cared about the pussy grabbing and all the rest of it.
Hopefully — as wj and GftNC suggest — there will be enough people who do. But we’re going to be a long time digging out of the mess, if indeed we get the chance.
wj: So the real question is, how many Trump supporters are that divorced from reality?
Depends what “reality” means.
In the last week, I’ve had conversation with two working stiffs here in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts. One a convenience store clerk, the other a self-employed mason; both immigrants please note. Neither is the kind of MAGA maggot who would excuse He, Trump for shooting somebody on 5th Avenue if you showed him video of it. But “reality” for these guys is “Hey, business is up; I’ve got nothing to complain about.”
Boasts of pussy-grabbing, defiance of the Constitution, self-enrichment of the Trumposo Family, collusion with or coercion of foreigners to win re-election — these are not part of “reality” for voters like the guys I refer to.
As I will never tire of pointing out, the problem with American self-governance is that we have all agreed to pretend that “politics” is separate from “real life” — a proposition these guys seem to embrace. Unless He, Trump personally comes around to fire them, His antics are just performance art. Nothing to vote against Him for, let alone impeach Him over.
It is a little dispiriting and quite scary.
–TP
wj: So the real question is, how many Trump supporters are that divorced from reality?
Depends what “reality” means.
In the last week, I’ve had conversation with two working stiffs here in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts. One a convenience store clerk, the other a self-employed mason; both immigrants please note. Neither is the kind of MAGA maggot who would excuse He, Trump for shooting somebody on 5th Avenue if you showed him video of it. But “reality” for these guys is “Hey, business is up; I’ve got nothing to complain about.”
Boasts of pussy-grabbing, defiance of the Constitution, self-enrichment of the Trumposo Family, collusion with or coercion of foreigners to win re-election — these are not part of “reality” for voters like the guys I refer to.
As I will never tire of pointing out, the problem with American self-governance is that we have all agreed to pretend that “politics” is separate from “real life” — a proposition these guys seem to embrace. Unless He, Trump personally comes around to fire them, His antics are just performance art. Nothing to vote against Him for, let alone impeach Him over.
It is a little dispiriting and quite scary.
–TP
and quite scary
Indeed.
and quite scary
Indeed.
He did WHAT?!?!?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-told-russian-officials-in-2017-he-wasnt-concerned-about-moscows-interference-in-us-election/2019/09/27/b20a8bc8-e159-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html
He did WHAT?!?!?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-told-russian-officials-in-2017-he-wasnt-concerned-about-moscows-interference-in-us-election/2019/09/27/b20a8bc8-e159-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html
He did WHAT?!?!?
Trump’s an Intercept reader?
He did WHAT?!?!?
Trump’s an Intercept reader?
seems like this could be a problem:
seems like this could be a problem:
Hopefully — as wj and GftNC suggest — there will be enough people who do.
I’m quite a bit more pessimistic than wj, I think. Given the stuff so far that his base are willing to ignore, and the fact that even nominal Trump-haters like Marty seem able to regard his behaviour in a less-than-criminal light, I have no faith that anything like sense will prevail. And as for what’s happening in the UK, although BoJo is not Trump, a significant percentage of the population seem prepared to give his continuing egregious behaviour a pass as well, and between them he and Dominic Cummings seem happy to use tactics from the Trump playbook in pursuit of continuing in power.
Hopefully — as wj and GftNC suggest — there will be enough people who do.
I’m quite a bit more pessimistic than wj, I think. Given the stuff so far that his base are willing to ignore, and the fact that even nominal Trump-haters like Marty seem able to regard his behaviour in a less-than-criminal light, I have no faith that anything like sense will prevail. And as for what’s happening in the UK, although BoJo is not Trump, a significant percentage of the population seem prepared to give his continuing egregious behaviour a pass as well, and between them he and Dominic Cummings seem happy to use tactics from the Trump playbook in pursuit of continuing in power.
There are several Republicans running for office or re-elected to the same despite recent criminal convictions or current trials against them. The base does not mind at all that these guys are crooks.
Some Dems have tried the same but to my knowledge with not much success (usually losing during the primaries already).
Hm, a duel between Trump and Rod Blagojevich could get interesting when their hairpieces attack each other viciously.
There are several Republicans running for office or re-elected to the same despite recent criminal convictions or current trials against them. The base does not mind at all that these guys are crooks.
Some Dems have tried the same but to my knowledge with not much success (usually losing during the primaries already).
Hm, a duel between Trump and Rod Blagojevich could get interesting when their hairpieces attack each other viciously.
Hm, a duel between Trump and Rod Blagojevich could get interesting when their hairpieces attack each other viciously.
An excellent, and all too rare, example of Hartmutian surrealism.
Hm, a duel between Trump and Rod Blagojevich could get interesting when their hairpieces attack each other viciously.
An excellent, and all too rare, example of Hartmutian surrealism.
Hm, a duel between Trump and Rod Blagojevich could get interesting when their hairpieces attack each other viciously.
Or they might declare a truce, cuddle up, and make more appalling hair pieces to pollute the world.
Hm, a duel between Trump and Rod Blagojevich could get interesting when their hairpieces attack each other viciously.
Or they might declare a truce, cuddle up, and make more appalling hair pieces to pollute the world.
In Illinois at least, holding political office seems to be a pipeline to prison.
In Illinois at least, holding political office seems to be a pipeline to prison.
Time to start examining our next possible President.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/27/books/review/piety-and-power-tom-lobianco.html
The Pence marriage sounds interesting.
Time to start examining our next possible President.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/27/books/review/piety-and-power-tom-lobianco.html
The Pence marriage sounds interesting.
It’s always hard to tell, many years later, what people thought they saw in each other when they got together in the first place.
The first thing to wonder about Pence is how much of the impeachable conduct of Trump he was a party to. For example, did he pressure foreign leaders (e.g. the President of Ukraine) to provide dirt on Trump’s potential political opponent? Or did he merely keep quiet about what he knew Trump was doing? Or what?
It’s always hard to tell, many years later, what people thought they saw in each other when they got together in the first place.
The first thing to wonder about Pence is how much of the impeachable conduct of Trump he was a party to. For example, did he pressure foreign leaders (e.g. the President of Ukraine) to provide dirt on Trump’s potential political opponent? Or did he merely keep quiet about what he knew Trump was doing? Or what?
What keeps them from simply deleting the incriminating material from the secret server?
Why should they consider the breach of a preservation order to be of more danger to them than the eventual disclosure?
It worked with the torture tapes under the lesser Bush, didn’t it?
What keeps them from simply deleting the incriminating material from the secret server?
Why should they consider the breach of a preservation order to be of more danger to them than the eventual disclosure?
It worked with the torture tapes under the lesser Bush, didn’t it?
What keeps them from simply deleting the incriminating material from the secret server?
Servers, even secret ones, have backups of their files. Have to. Highly secured backups, but backups nonetheless.
So if you try to get rid of evidence by deleting something from the server, you also have to go thru and delete it from the backups (plural!) — all of them since it was put on the server. And let’s face it, this bunch of incompetents is unlikely to be able to do so successfully. (Assuming facts not in evidence, like that they even realize that there are backups which they need to worry about.) Not that this will necessarily keep them from trying. of course.
What keeps them from simply deleting the incriminating material from the secret server?
Servers, even secret ones, have backups of their files. Have to. Highly secured backups, but backups nonetheless.
So if you try to get rid of evidence by deleting something from the server, you also have to go thru and delete it from the backups (plural!) — all of them since it was put on the server. And let’s face it, this bunch of incompetents is unlikely to be able to do so successfully. (Assuming facts not in evidence, like that they even realize that there are backups which they need to worry about.) Not that this will necessarily keep them from trying. of course.
What keeps them from simply deleting the incriminating material from the secret server?
Hartmut, if you’re really interested in the answer to this question, you could go back through Adam Silverman’s posts and comments at Balloon-Juice over the past week, starting with this one and working backward.
I warn you, it’s a ton of material. But somewhere buried in those threads (or I hate to say it, possibly in some other BJ thread where Adam commented) is a discussion of why there might be a lot keeping them from simply deleting the incriminating material, besides the backups wj cites. It’s not just any server, like it’s not a server they set up themselves. Plus, besides backups, there are logs of who uses it, etc. etc. Quite fascinating stuff.
Although — as with saving stuff there in the first place, who knows what this crew might try to do with it.
What keeps them from simply deleting the incriminating material from the secret server?
Hartmut, if you’re really interested in the answer to this question, you could go back through Adam Silverman’s posts and comments at Balloon-Juice over the past week, starting with this one and working backward.
I warn you, it’s a ton of material. But somewhere buried in those threads (or I hate to say it, possibly in some other BJ thread where Adam commented) is a discussion of why there might be a lot keeping them from simply deleting the incriminating material, besides the backups wj cites. It’s not just any server, like it’s not a server they set up themselves. Plus, besides backups, there are logs of who uses it, etc. etc. Quite fascinating stuff.
Although — as with saving stuff there in the first place, who knows what this crew might try to do with it.
I know, racism. I suppose that’s part of it, but it can’t be all of it.
I’m not sure racism, per se, is actually that large a part of it. I don’t pretend to know or understand why people support Trump, but among Trump supporters I know more common motivations seem to be they’re doing well economically and think Trump will enable them to continue to do so, or they’re into the whole America First thing and find Trump’s general truculence toward other people and other countries appealing, or they’re all in on the Fox News conspiracy bandwagon. Some younger folks are all in on the Milo style “freedom means I can be a rude ass” bandwagon, and Trump fits that.
My exposure is a small sample, so who knows.
I’m not a psychiatrist or sociologist, so I really don’t know why something like 40% of the country thinks Trump is just the guy we need. Humans are weird. Our ancestors apparently were belligerent irascible apes whose go-to response to stressors of any kind was to shriek, bare their teeth, and fling poo at it, and we inherited the same inclinations like a congenital disease. That’s my best guess.
Whatever their motivation, it’s extraordinarily hard for me to see actually showing up on election day and pulling the lever for somebody like Donald Trump as anything other than an act of reckless irresponsibility. He wasn’t an unknown quantity. Everything that people find horrifyingly objectionable about him now, was on display for anyone to see. Either you thought all of that was a splendid idea, or you didn’t give a shit. I’m not sure which is worse. Neither option speaks well of anyone.
I find myself presented with the choice of yelling at people, or just not talking about it. So I just don’t talk to them about it.
Sooner or later Trump will be gone, and all of the people who supported him will still be here. No matter how this whole mess plays out, a very large number of those people will never, ever, ever be persuaded that he was and is anything other than the best thing that ever happened to this country.
I have no expectation, whatsoever, of ever persuading them otherwise.
Really, what I take away from the whole Trump phenomenon is that a hell of a lot of people are walking around with a hell of a lot of toxic bullshit rattling around in their heads. I don’t think anyone has figured out the cure for that. It’s above my pay grade, that’s for sure.
Right now I’ll be happy to just get our very own Pere Ubu the hell out of the White House.
I know, racism. I suppose that’s part of it, but it can’t be all of it.
I’m not sure racism, per se, is actually that large a part of it. I don’t pretend to know or understand why people support Trump, but among Trump supporters I know more common motivations seem to be they’re doing well economically and think Trump will enable them to continue to do so, or they’re into the whole America First thing and find Trump’s general truculence toward other people and other countries appealing, or they’re all in on the Fox News conspiracy bandwagon. Some younger folks are all in on the Milo style “freedom means I can be a rude ass” bandwagon, and Trump fits that.
My exposure is a small sample, so who knows.
I’m not a psychiatrist or sociologist, so I really don’t know why something like 40% of the country thinks Trump is just the guy we need. Humans are weird. Our ancestors apparently were belligerent irascible apes whose go-to response to stressors of any kind was to shriek, bare their teeth, and fling poo at it, and we inherited the same inclinations like a congenital disease. That’s my best guess.
Whatever their motivation, it’s extraordinarily hard for me to see actually showing up on election day and pulling the lever for somebody like Donald Trump as anything other than an act of reckless irresponsibility. He wasn’t an unknown quantity. Everything that people find horrifyingly objectionable about him now, was on display for anyone to see. Either you thought all of that was a splendid idea, or you didn’t give a shit. I’m not sure which is worse. Neither option speaks well of anyone.
I find myself presented with the choice of yelling at people, or just not talking about it. So I just don’t talk to them about it.
Sooner or later Trump will be gone, and all of the people who supported him will still be here. No matter how this whole mess plays out, a very large number of those people will never, ever, ever be persuaded that he was and is anything other than the best thing that ever happened to this country.
I have no expectation, whatsoever, of ever persuading them otherwise.
Really, what I take away from the whole Trump phenomenon is that a hell of a lot of people are walking around with a hell of a lot of toxic bullshit rattling around in their heads. I don’t think anyone has figured out the cure for that. It’s above my pay grade, that’s for sure.
Right now I’ll be happy to just get our very own Pere Ubu the hell out of the White House.
my little town is having a argument about a Confederate statue in the town circle. our town council has voted to take it down. this has angered a lot of people who think the Confederacy is a heritage and a history that needs prominently preserving in a public place.
so this weekend, every fan of Treason In Defense Of Slavery fetishist in the area is downtown hooting and hollering and waving their flags and pretending they won the right to celebrate treason with my tax dollars.
i saw a pickup with one large stars & bars mounted on the roof, another large one in the bed and the driver was waving a small one out the window. in the bed next to the treason flag was a “Trump!!!” flag.
racism runs deep among the Trumpers.
my little town is having a argument about a Confederate statue in the town circle. our town council has voted to take it down. this has angered a lot of people who think the Confederacy is a heritage and a history that needs prominently preserving in a public place.
so this weekend, every fan of Treason In Defense Of Slavery fetishist in the area is downtown hooting and hollering and waving their flags and pretending they won the right to celebrate treason with my tax dollars.
i saw a pickup with one large stars & bars mounted on the roof, another large one in the bed and the driver was waving a small one out the window. in the bed next to the treason flag was a “Trump!!!” flag.
racism runs deep among the Trumpers.
Sooner or later Trump will be gone, and all of the people who supported him will still be here. No matter how this whole mess plays out, a very large number of those people will never, ever, ever be persuaded that he was and is anything other than the best thing that ever happened to this country.
And that view will be passed down the generations. Well, at least it will fit comfortably with their continuiong embrace of the Lost Cause.
Sooner or later Trump will be gone, and all of the people who supported him will still be here. No matter how this whole mess plays out, a very large number of those people will never, ever, ever be persuaded that he was and is anything other than the best thing that ever happened to this country.
And that view will be passed down the generations. Well, at least it will fit comfortably with their continuiong embrace of the Lost Cause.
this has angered a lot of people who think the Confederacy is a heritage and a history that needs prominently preserving in a public place.
Someone should ask them if they want a Hitler statue in the nearest WWII memorial.
this has angered a lot of people who think the Confederacy is a heritage and a history that needs prominently preserving in a public place.
Someone should ask them if they want a Hitler statue in the nearest WWII memorial.
“a very large number of those people will never, ever, ever be persuaded that he was and is anything other than the best thing that ever happened to this country.”
He might have a whiny meltdown if enough Republicans turn against him. Nixon and Agnew had the same appeal, but once discredited most people stopped liking Nixon. But then they looked for someone else to represent the oppressed white Republican masses and found Reagan. Later it was Dubya. Now it is Trump.
I don’t think the left ( and I mean all parts of the left, not just the parts I disagree with) is immune to silly tribalistic impulses. It’s that primate poo flinging heritage. But in this country I think the Right has it the worst. Or anyway they have the power to manifest it more. ( Plus I think they are wrong on the issues.)
A friend of mine just told me in response to a lefty article I sent that I should watch some Trump rallies and see how joyous and full of love for America they are. I don’t doubt he means it. But tribal folk often feel that about their fellow tribe members.
“a very large number of those people will never, ever, ever be persuaded that he was and is anything other than the best thing that ever happened to this country.”
He might have a whiny meltdown if enough Republicans turn against him. Nixon and Agnew had the same appeal, but once discredited most people stopped liking Nixon. But then they looked for someone else to represent the oppressed white Republican masses and found Reagan. Later it was Dubya. Now it is Trump.
I don’t think the left ( and I mean all parts of the left, not just the parts I disagree with) is immune to silly tribalistic impulses. It’s that primate poo flinging heritage. But in this country I think the Right has it the worst. Or anyway they have the power to manifest it more. ( Plus I think they are wrong on the issues.)
A friend of mine just told me in response to a lefty article I sent that I should watch some Trump rallies and see how joyous and full of love for America they are. I don’t doubt he means it. But tribal folk often feel that about their fellow tribe members.
of course “right wing nationalism” is not exactly the same as ‘love of country’.
of course “right wing nationalism” is not exactly the same as ‘love of country’.
I don’t think the left ( and I mean all parts of the left, not just the parts I disagree with) is immune to silly tribalistic impulses.
nor I. but nobody like me votes for anybody like Trump.
watch some Trump rallies and see how joyous and full of love for America they are.
I don’t want to live in the America they love.
I don’t think the left ( and I mean all parts of the left, not just the parts I disagree with) is immune to silly tribalistic impulses.
nor I. but nobody like me votes for anybody like Trump.
watch some Trump rallies and see how joyous and full of love for America they are.
I don’t want to live in the America they love.
@cleek — I don’t know if you saw this news tidbit about a place in Georgia where, by state law, they can’t remove Confederate memorials, so the county decided upon a different way to make a point. They put up a plaque near the statue that says this:
A woman in my tiny town’s library’s reading group started in one night on this crap about destroying “our” history. It was the only time this woman ever came to the group, thank goodness. I kept mostly quiet because otherwise I would have lost my temper (a failing I’m working on), but thinking about it later I wanted to ask why the statues of white male war leaders are the kind of history some people seem determined to equate with “our history.” Why don’t we have a statue that commemorates the courage and suffering of some slaves? Or maybe a creative one that shows R. E. Lee behind bars for treason? Etc. Since we probably can’t have any of that, I like the DeKalb County response.
@cleek — I don’t know if you saw this news tidbit about a place in Georgia where, by state law, they can’t remove Confederate memorials, so the county decided upon a different way to make a point. They put up a plaque near the statue that says this:
A woman in my tiny town’s library’s reading group started in one night on this crap about destroying “our” history. It was the only time this woman ever came to the group, thank goodness. I kept mostly quiet because otherwise I would have lost my temper (a failing I’m working on), but thinking about it later I wanted to ask why the statues of white male war leaders are the kind of history some people seem determined to equate with “our history.” Why don’t we have a statue that commemorates the courage and suffering of some slaves? Or maybe a creative one that shows R. E. Lee behind bars for treason? Etc. Since we probably can’t have any of that, I like the DeKalb County response.
every time i see a “Preserve our History” yard sign, i try to think of a way i can replace the picture of the TISDOS Horseman with the classic a diagram of a slave ship cargo hold without getting shot.
every time i see a “Preserve our History” yard sign, i try to think of a way i can replace the picture of the TISDOS Horseman with the classic a diagram of a slave ship cargo hold without getting shot.
I don’t want to live in the America they love.
Amen. Or in my case, the world they want. And for good measure, pretty much all of wrs at 03.14. It’s extraordinarily depressing, when one thought (as someone, possibly sapient, said recently) that on the whole things in general (with all due exceptions of GCC, militant religiosity of various kinds, inequality in various nations etc etc) might be tending to get better, and more humane. Like all those books and articles showing, or “proving”, that “we” live in the least violent, most prosperous time in history….
I don’t want to live in the America they love.
Amen. Or in my case, the world they want. And for good measure, pretty much all of wrs at 03.14. It’s extraordinarily depressing, when one thought (as someone, possibly sapient, said recently) that on the whole things in general (with all due exceptions of GCC, militant religiosity of various kinds, inequality in various nations etc etc) might be tending to get better, and more humane. Like all those books and articles showing, or “proving”, that “we” live in the least violent, most prosperous time in history….
Excellent DeKalb County plaque, Janie. I love a creative solution like that.
Excellent DeKalb County plaque, Janie. I love a creative solution like that.
I don’t want to live in the America they love.
Me neither. But then, they don’t want me to live in their America either. They tend to be twitchy about people in interracial marriages. Their protestations of lack of racism notwithstanding.
I don’t want to live in the America they love.
Me neither. But then, they don’t want me to live in their America either. They tend to be twitchy about people in interracial marriages. Their protestations of lack of racism notwithstanding.
Or their schools.
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/463517-trump-administration-files-statement-supporting-a-catholic-high
Or their schools.
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/463517-trump-administration-files-statement-supporting-a-catholic-high
Just want to say: what all y’all said. I know that I’m a PIA around here, but I am really grateful to be able to nitpick and spar among people with whom I’m generally on board.
Thanks.
Just want to say: what all y’all said. I know that I’m a PIA around here, but I am really grateful to be able to nitpick and spar among people with whom I’m generally on board.
Thanks.
TISDOS = TIDOS
i blame … Ukraine.
TISDOS = TIDOS
i blame … Ukraine.
What a loathsome,self-serving, amoral !^&*.
“Barr did learn of that call a few weeks later, he was “surprised and angry” to discover he had been lumped in with Giuliani, a person familiar with Barr’s thinking told The Associated Press. This person was not authorized to speak about the matter publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity.”
I hope that Barr descends into Hell immediately.
What a loathsome,self-serving, amoral !^&*.
“Barr did learn of that call a few weeks later, he was “surprised and angry” to discover he had been lumped in with Giuliani, a person familiar with Barr’s thinking told The Associated Press. This person was not authorized to speak about the matter publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity.”
I hope that Barr descends into Hell immediately.
Please excuse my ignorance, what does TIDOS mean in this context? I assume you are not referring to the security software of the name.
Please excuse my ignorance, what does TIDOS mean in this context? I assume you are not referring to the security software of the name.
Barr “was “surprised and angry” to discover he had been lumped in with Giuliani,”???
“Surprised”? What did he expect when he decided to be a legal shill for Trump? Anybody with two brain cells to rub together (which Barr had, at least at one time) could see where that would lead. By the time he signed on with this administration, it would have taken major effort at willful blindness not to see how it would turn out.
Barr “was “surprised and angry” to discover he had been lumped in with Giuliani,”???
“Surprised”? What did he expect when he decided to be a legal shill for Trump? Anybody with two brain cells to rub together (which Barr had, at least at one time) could see where that would lead. By the time he signed on with this administration, it would have taken major effort at willful blindness not to see how it would turn out.
I share Hartmut’s ignorance about TIDOS.
On another matter, I just re-read that DeKalb County text and noticed something that made me even more impressed with how it was done.
It talks about the history of the statue and the reasons it was erected and the whole poison mythology of the lost cause. This is all in the past tense, appropriately since it’s describing a time in the past when the statue was put there.
But then it says: “Since state law prohibited local governments from removing Confederate statues, DeKalb County contextualized this monument in 2019.”
It would have been perfectly unremarkable to put the two bolded verbs in the present tense — the time at which they were being written. Putting them in the past tense places the reader in the future, into a time when perhaps “state law prohibited” can truly be described as something in the past.
If they did this on purpose, I am even more in awe than I was before. It’s subtle, and that little grammatical touch makes it even more powerful.
I share Hartmut’s ignorance about TIDOS.
On another matter, I just re-read that DeKalb County text and noticed something that made me even more impressed with how it was done.
It talks about the history of the statue and the reasons it was erected and the whole poison mythology of the lost cause. This is all in the past tense, appropriately since it’s describing a time in the past when the statue was put there.
But then it says: “Since state law prohibited local governments from removing Confederate statues, DeKalb County contextualized this monument in 2019.”
It would have been perfectly unremarkable to put the two bolded verbs in the present tense — the time at which they were being written. Putting them in the past tense places the reader in the future, into a time when perhaps “state law prohibited” can truly be described as something in the past.
If they did this on purpose, I am even more in awe than I was before. It’s subtle, and that little grammatical touch makes it even more powerful.
I deduce from cleek’s 03.25 upthread that TIDOS is Treason in Defence of Slavery
I deduce from cleek’s 03.25 upthread that TIDOS is Treason in Defence of Slavery
Treason
In
Defense
Of
Slavery
??
–TP
Treason
In
Defense
Of
Slavery
??
–TP
GftNC and TP: thanks!
Not the first indication this evening that I’m having trouble keeping up. 😉
GftNC and TP: thanks!
Not the first indication this evening that I’m having trouble keeping up. 😉
sorry. it’s a handy acronym !
we had three arrests at the demonstration yesterday – none were actually from our town, of course.
some traitors put a giant Confederate flag on a flagpole across from the middle school (which used to be an all-black school). and then someone else cut that flagpole in half during the night. so the traitors have promised to put up five more giant traitor flags around the county.
i’m sure they’re all Trump voters.
sorry. it’s a handy acronym !
we had three arrests at the demonstration yesterday – none were actually from our town, of course.
some traitors put a giant Confederate flag on a flagpole across from the middle school (which used to be an all-black school). and then someone else cut that flagpole in half during the night. so the traitors have promised to put up five more giant traitor flags around the county.
i’m sure they’re all Trump voters.
OK, they have given you a task: Find the other 5 flags and deal with them likewise.
Let’s see , whether they up the ante to 25 then.
OK, they have given you a task: Find the other 5 flags and deal with them likewise.
Let’s see , whether they up the ante to 25 then.
A woman in my tiny town’s library’s reading group started in one night on this crap about destroying “our” history.
It’s not destroying history. It’s telling the whole history.
A woman in my tiny town’s library’s reading group started in one night on this crap about destroying “our” history.
It’s not destroying history. It’s telling the whole history.
What is destroyed is the ability to ignore inconvenient or uncomfortable parts of history. Which, if one has a strong emotional investment in a version of history which excludes those parts, is enormously threatening.
What is destroyed is the ability to ignore inconvenient or uncomfortable parts of history. Which, if one has a strong emotional investment in a version of history which excludes those parts, is enormously threatening.
If they want to preserve “their” history, then let them put those memorials up in their own front yards. At least then we know who those memorials are supposed to represent, because it sure isn’t the polity as a whole.
If they want to preserve “their” history, then let them put those memorials up in their own front yards. At least then we know who those memorials are supposed to represent, because it sure isn’t the polity as a whole.
Very interesting article in the NYT today, headlined “What’s the Matter with Republicans? Trump has given them another chance to break away. Why won’t they take it?”
I think it gives a very credible psychological analysis of what has happened to many Republicans during this presidency. I can’t post a link, but here is a flavour:
Very interesting article in the NYT today, headlined “What’s the Matter with Republicans? Trump has given them another chance to break away. Why won’t they take it?”
I think it gives a very credible psychological analysis of what has happened to many Republicans during this presidency. I can’t post a link, but here is a flavour:
Good article, GFTNC.
Seems on the money to me, FWTW.
Good article, GFTNC.
Seems on the money to me, FWTW.
Trump’s fans appear to be broadening their enthusiasm for walls:
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/09/29/for-this-idaho-candidate-the-enemy-is-california-exodus/
Can’t say I’m surprised. Once you start narrowing your definition of who is acceptable as, at least potentially, “one of us”, it’s hard to stop.
Trump’s fans appear to be broadening their enthusiasm for walls:
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/09/29/for-this-idaho-candidate-the-enemy-is-california-exodus/
Can’t say I’m surprised. Once you start narrowing your definition of who is acceptable as, at least potentially, “one of us”, it’s hard to stop.
Seems on the money to me, FWTW.
Yes, I thought so. But then, I am more prone to see psychological explanations as persuasive than many people I know. It will be interesting to see what (if anything) our fellow American commenters have to say. I know many or most of them despise the NYT, and of course one could say that the analysis in the article is nothing new, but personally I think the collapse of all the standards previously aspired to by the Rs needs some kind of explanation more detailed than mere hypocrisy (although God knows there is plenty of that).
Seems on the money to me, FWTW.
Yes, I thought so. But then, I am more prone to see psychological explanations as persuasive than many people I know. It will be interesting to see what (if anything) our fellow American commenters have to say. I know many or most of them despise the NYT, and of course one could say that the analysis in the article is nothing new, but personally I think the collapse of all the standards previously aspired to by the Rs needs some kind of explanation more detailed than mere hypocrisy (although God knows there is plenty of that).
And now we have this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/09/30/trump-civil-war-tweet-jeffress-draws-backlash-critics-gop/
One quote (from, be it noted, a Republican Congressman) says it all:
The proximate cause being a tweet (technically a re-tweet) from Trump: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1178477539653771264
To me, it looks like the dominoes are (slowly) starting to fall. Not least thanks to a lot of panicked flailing about by Trump. Perhaps I’m just a compulsive optimist. But it looks less so every day.
And now we have this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/09/30/trump-civil-war-tweet-jeffress-draws-backlash-critics-gop/
One quote (from, be it noted, a Republican Congressman) says it all:
The proximate cause being a tweet (technically a re-tweet) from Trump: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1178477539653771264
To me, it looks like the dominoes are (slowly) starting to fall. Not least thanks to a lot of panicked flailing about by Trump. Perhaps I’m just a compulsive optimist. But it looks less so every day.
personally I think the collapse of all the standards previously aspired to by the Rs needs some kind of explanation more detailed than mere hypocrisy (although God knows there is plenty of that).
While there’s something to the NYT analysis, I think rather more motivation is straight cowardice combined with will to (keep) power. We can argue about whether some of them ever had principles beyond convenience. But even those who did have largely become creatures of convenience.
personally I think the collapse of all the standards previously aspired to by the Rs needs some kind of explanation more detailed than mere hypocrisy (although God knows there is plenty of that).
While there’s something to the NYT analysis, I think rather more motivation is straight cowardice combined with will to (keep) power. We can argue about whether some of them ever had principles beyond convenience. But even those who did have largely become creatures of convenience.
At this stage it’s less about defending Trump; they are defending their own defense of Trump.
This is largely why I never discuss Trump with Trump supporters.
Some people are gonna love the guy until their dying day. Others are going to sooner or later figure out he’s not really somebody they want to line up behind.
I have no wish to provide the latter with a reason not to do so.
At this stage it’s less about defending Trump; they are defending their own defense of Trump.
This is largely why I never discuss Trump with Trump supporters.
Some people are gonna love the guy until their dying day. Others are going to sooner or later figure out he’s not really somebody they want to line up behind.
I have no wish to provide the latter with a reason not to do so.
“This followed Trump tweets accusing Rep. Adam Schiff (D–Calif.) of treason and fraud and saying Democrats were trying to “destabilize” America.
While the Civil War tweet is getting more attention, the Schiff tweet may be a bigger deal. The president accusing a member of Congress of treason for something they said on the House or Senate floor is unconstitutional. “Trump’s tweet is by itself arguably impeachable,” suggested political science professor Jacob Levy.
The relevant part of the U.S. Constitution is known as the speech and debate clause. It says:
This clause “serves various purposes: principally to protect the independence and integrity of the legislative branch by protecting against executive or judicial intrusions into the protected legislative sphere,” notes Todd Garvey of the Congressional Research Service.”
Trump’s Civil War Tweet Is Bad. This Other Tweet May Be Unconstitutional.: Plus: newspapers vs. Google, The Federalist vs. the National Labor Relations Board, and more…
“This followed Trump tweets accusing Rep. Adam Schiff (D–Calif.) of treason and fraud and saying Democrats were trying to “destabilize” America.
While the Civil War tweet is getting more attention, the Schiff tweet may be a bigger deal. The president accusing a member of Congress of treason for something they said on the House or Senate floor is unconstitutional. “Trump’s tweet is by itself arguably impeachable,” suggested political science professor Jacob Levy.
The relevant part of the U.S. Constitution is known as the speech and debate clause. It says:
This clause “serves various purposes: principally to protect the independence and integrity of the legislative branch by protecting against executive or judicial intrusions into the protected legislative sphere,” notes Todd Garvey of the Congressional Research Service.”
Trump’s Civil War Tweet Is Bad. This Other Tweet May Be Unconstitutional.: Plus: newspapers vs. Google, The Federalist vs. the National Labor Relations Board, and more…
Charles, I think it comes down to this. We have heard so many personal attacks by Trump that we’ve simply gotten numb to them, no matter their actual content. Even those of us who are routinely appalled by him. Which is a problem in and of itself.
Charles, I think it comes down to this. We have heard so many personal attacks by Trump that we’ve simply gotten numb to them, no matter their actual content. Even those of us who are routinely appalled by him. Which is a problem in and of itself.
At this stage it’s less about defending Trump; they are defending their own defense of Trump.
This is overthinking it. They are assholes.
At this stage it’s less about defending Trump; they are defending their own defense of Trump.
This is overthinking it. They are assholes.
Meanwhile, this got lost in the impeachment uproar. But you all may be interested to know that an 18-month investigation by the Senate Finance Committee determined that the National Rifle Association served as a “foreign asset” for Russia in the run-up to the 2016 election. (Which we knew already, of course. But now it’s an official finding.)
Got that? Not a House committee, but a Senate committee, one led by Republicans. It’s something that could well cost the NRA its non-profit status. Which is to say, its very existance.
Meanwhile, this got lost in the impeachment uproar. But you all may be interested to know that an 18-month investigation by the Senate Finance Committee determined that the National Rifle Association served as a “foreign asset” for Russia in the run-up to the 2016 election. (Which we knew already, of course. But now it’s an official finding.)
Got that? Not a House committee, but a Senate committee, one led by Republicans. It’s something that could well cost the NRA its non-profit status. Which is to say, its very existance.
This is overthinking it. They are assholes.
No question about it, many of them are. Variously, racists and bastards of many a stripe. But some of them did not start out as exactly those kinds of deplorables, and it is interesting and informative to examine how this has happened to them so quickly and so dramatically.
This is overthinking it. They are assholes.
No question about it, many of them are. Variously, racists and bastards of many a stripe. But some of them did not start out as exactly those kinds of deplorables, and it is interesting and informative to examine how this has happened to them so quickly and so dramatically.
GFtheNC,
The Republican Party has implicitly and increasingly explicitly trod this road since Richard “silent majority” Nixon. Surely, many a Republican believes in their heart they are “good people”, moral, upright, and just.
However, especially since Reagan, GOP support leans heavily on them being exactly this kind of deplorable: The racism, the xenophobia, the ethno-nationalism. Democrats are not simply political foes. They are held to be “un-american” and illegitimate.
Trump is simply the current manifestation of this development.
So when JT calls for their utter destruction as an effective political force, I’m all in.
GFtheNC,
The Republican Party has implicitly and increasingly explicitly trod this road since Richard “silent majority” Nixon. Surely, many a Republican believes in their heart they are “good people”, moral, upright, and just.
However, especially since Reagan, GOP support leans heavily on them being exactly this kind of deplorable: The racism, the xenophobia, the ethno-nationalism. Democrats are not simply political foes. They are held to be “un-american” and illegitimate.
Trump is simply the current manifestation of this development.
So when JT calls for their utter destruction as an effective political force, I’m all in.
So when JT calls for their utter destruction as an effective political force, I’m all in.
Well me too, bobbyp, I think they are irredeemable after this, and their condition before this provided the petri dish. But I still think it’s worth examining the nature of the slippery slope.
So when JT calls for their utter destruction as an effective political force, I’m all in.
Well me too, bobbyp, I think they are irredeemable after this, and their condition before this provided the petri dish. But I still think it’s worth examining the nature of the slippery slope.
To seriously mix metaphors…
To seriously mix metaphors…
GftNC, your 10:21 is interesting. It seems to argue that there’s a psychological slippery slope. I won’t argue. I just think that anyone who is okay with going down that slope had to have very weak personal integrity to begin with.
I say that as someone with a lot of flaws. But, you know what? I’m not a liar. I’m not a sadist. I don’t support people who have those traits. Perhaps that’s a low bar for personal integrity, but Trump supporters don’t meet it.
GftNC, your 10:21 is interesting. It seems to argue that there’s a psychological slippery slope. I won’t argue. I just think that anyone who is okay with going down that slope had to have very weak personal integrity to begin with.
I say that as someone with a lot of flaws. But, you know what? I’m not a liar. I’m not a sadist. I don’t support people who have those traits. Perhaps that’s a low bar for personal integrity, but Trump supporters don’t meet it.
I agree with bobbyp’s 4:59.
The Republican Party has implicitly and increasingly explicitly trod this road since Richard “silent majority” Nixon. Surely, many a Republican believes in their heart they are “good people”, moral, upright, and just.
However, especially since Reagan, GOP support leans heavily on them being exactly this kind of deplorable: The racism, the xenophobia, the ethno-nationalism. Democrats are not simply political foes. They are held to be “un-american” and illegitimate.
Trump is simply the current manifestation of this development.
Trump is just a continuation of the decades-long trend. We can only hope it has peaked.
I agree with bobbyp’s 4:59.
The Republican Party has implicitly and increasingly explicitly trod this road since Richard “silent majority” Nixon. Surely, many a Republican believes in their heart they are “good people”, moral, upright, and just.
However, especially since Reagan, GOP support leans heavily on them being exactly this kind of deplorable: The racism, the xenophobia, the ethno-nationalism. Democrats are not simply political foes. They are held to be “un-american” and illegitimate.
Trump is simply the current manifestation of this development.
Trump is just a continuation of the decades-long trend. We can only hope it has peaked.
I was taking a break in the cafe at Barnes & Noble today and picked up the recently published collection of some of Toni Morrison’s essays and speeches. There’s one early in the book called “Racism and Fascism,” from a speech she gave at Howard University in 1995. (Yes, 1995.) The relevant portions of it are here, as published in The Nation in May of 1995.
Lots to comment on here, but I’m overdue at a meeting, so not right now.
I was taking a break in the cafe at Barnes & Noble today and picked up the recently published collection of some of Toni Morrison’s essays and speeches. There’s one early in the book called “Racism and Fascism,” from a speech she gave at Howard University in 1995. (Yes, 1995.) The relevant portions of it are here, as published in The Nation in May of 1995.
Lots to comment on here, but I’m overdue at a meeting, so not right now.
Trump is just a continuation of the decades-long trend. We can only hope it has peaked.
Is there any sign that it has?
Remember when we all talked about “We’re not pacifists – we’d be up in arms if there was an existential threat!”?
We’re here. (We actually were here, and should have known it, since 2010.)
And, yeah – shooting won’t solve this. But some kind of radical action may be necessary pretty soon. At the very least, staying home from work for awhile?
Trump is just a continuation of the decades-long trend. We can only hope it has peaked.
Is there any sign that it has?
Remember when we all talked about “We’re not pacifists – we’d be up in arms if there was an existential threat!”?
We’re here. (We actually were here, and should have known it, since 2010.)
And, yeah – shooting won’t solve this. But some kind of radical action may be necessary pretty soon. At the very least, staying home from work for awhile?
Trump is just a continuation of the decades-long trend.
Yes and no. There’s no arguing about the trend. But I think Trump represents a discontinuous, and big, step downward. Say what you will about Romney or McCain or even Bush II, none of them were anywhere near Trump’s level. Not even close. Even if you strongly opposed all of them, and I know most of you did, you can’t honestly say they were.
Trump is just a continuation of the decades-long trend.
Yes and no. There’s no arguing about the trend. But I think Trump represents a discontinuous, and big, step downward. Say what you will about Romney or McCain or even Bush II, none of them were anywhere near Trump’s level. Not even close. Even if you strongly opposed all of them, and I know most of you did, you can’t honestly say they were.
Oh look! There’s another, unrelated (except that it’s also about Trump) whistleblower complaint.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-whistleblower-complaint-you-havent-heard-of-relates-to-trumps-taxes/2019/09/30/10835424-e3c0-11e9-b403-f738899982d2_story.html
There’s a phenomena in physics. You can have a super-saturated solution, on one which has cooled well below freezing temperature, which nevertheless remains liquid. Until some tiny factor causes it to all solidify at once. That begins to look like what we are seeing.
Oh look! There’s another, unrelated (except that it’s also about Trump) whistleblower complaint.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-whistleblower-complaint-you-havent-heard-of-relates-to-trumps-taxes/2019/09/30/10835424-e3c0-11e9-b403-f738899982d2_story.html
There’s a phenomena in physics. You can have a super-saturated solution, on one which has cooled well below freezing temperature, which nevertheless remains liquid. Until some tiny factor causes it to all solidify at once. That begins to look like what we are seeing.
“Say what you will about Romney or McCain or even Bush II, none of them were anywhere near Trump’s level. Not even close. Even if you strongly opposed all of them, and I know most of you did, you can’t honestly say they were.”
Depends on what you are measuring. If you count corpses, Bush was worse. McCain didn’t have the opportunity, but mister bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran had great potential. And Democrats are not free of this proclivity for warmongering.
If you mean personal corruption and a seemingly complete inability to understand how to hide one’s narcissism, then Trump stands out. I think of him as a low functioning sociopath. He was born with money— otherwise I would guess he would be a not terribly successful criminal.
“Say what you will about Romney or McCain or even Bush II, none of them were anywhere near Trump’s level. Not even close. Even if you strongly opposed all of them, and I know most of you did, you can’t honestly say they were.”
Depends on what you are measuring. If you count corpses, Bush was worse. McCain didn’t have the opportunity, but mister bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran had great potential. And Democrats are not free of this proclivity for warmongering.
If you mean personal corruption and a seemingly complete inability to understand how to hide one’s narcissism, then Trump stands out. I think of him as a low functioning sociopath. He was born with money— otherwise I would guess he would be a not terribly successful criminal.
Charles’ 12.58 is important, though, since it goes directly to Trump’s oath of office to uphold the constitution.
In anyone else, this would be the mildly amusing ravings of an utter fool, but this is someone exercising the powers of the presidency.
To underscore that, it is becoming increasingly clear that senior memvpbers of his administration are willing collaborators in the effort to use the powers of government to attempt to destroy their political opponents.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/30/barr-pompeo-trump-ukraine-australia-2020
Impeachment is not a choice, it is an absolute necessity if the constitution is still to have any meaning.
Charles’ 12.58 is important, though, since it goes directly to Trump’s oath of office to uphold the constitution.
In anyone else, this would be the mildly amusing ravings of an utter fool, but this is someone exercising the powers of the presidency.
To underscore that, it is becoming increasingly clear that senior memvpbers of his administration are willing collaborators in the effort to use the powers of government to attempt to destroy their political opponents.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/30/barr-pompeo-trump-ukraine-australia-2020
Impeachment is not a choice, it is an absolute necessity if the constitution is still to have any meaning.
Bush II did a lot of damage. To some extent he was unlucky with the problems he faced, but that’s a risk for a president who’s not up to the job. His friendly relationship with Obama speaks well of him personally.
Trump is even more incompetent than Bush II, but luckier. He has done a different sort of damage, by taking an axe to standards in US governance. And it’s hard to imagine his having any friends.
Bush II did a lot of damage. To some extent he was unlucky with the problems he faced, but that’s a risk for a president who’s not up to the job. His friendly relationship with Obama speaks well of him personally.
Trump is even more incompetent than Bush II, but luckier. He has done a different sort of damage, by taking an axe to standards in US governance. And it’s hard to imagine his having any friends.
wj: The report on the NRA was the result of an investigation by the Democratic staff of the Senate Finance Committee, and was issued by the ranking minority member.
wj: The report on the NRA was the result of an investigation by the Democratic staff of the Senate Finance Committee, and was issued by the ranking minority member.
Say what you will about Romney or McCain or even Bush II, none of them were anywhere near Trump’s level.
But Bush II, the worst of the three, was the only won who actually became President, so we don’t know what the others would have done, and both Palin and Ryan, the losing VP nominees, are seriously contemptible, though for different reasons.
More important, they are not the only three Republicans around. I was talking about the whole party.
I think one accelerant was the discovery that being a right-wing media asshole is a highly lucrative profession, and to some degree competitive, so the Hannitys, Limbaughs, Coulters, etc. have to keep up with each other, so they are in a downward spiral.
Say what you will about Romney or McCain or even Bush II, none of them were anywhere near Trump’s level.
But Bush II, the worst of the three, was the only won who actually became President, so we don’t know what the others would have done, and both Palin and Ryan, the losing VP nominees, are seriously contemptible, though for different reasons.
More important, they are not the only three Republicans around. I was talking about the whole party.
I think one accelerant was the discovery that being a right-wing media asshole is a highly lucrative profession, and to some degree competitive, so the Hannitys, Limbaughs, Coulters, etc. have to keep up with each other, so they are in a downward spiral.
Say what you will about Romney or McCain or even Bush II, none of them were anywhere near Trump’s level.
No, they were just preparing the way.
Say what you will about Romney or McCain or even Bush II, none of them were anywhere near Trump’s level.
No, they were just preparing the way.
Depends on what you are measuring. If you count corpses, Bush was worse.
Well, yes. But he had a full 8 years. Trump has not even had 3 yet. You gotta give him time.
Depends on what you are measuring. If you count corpses, Bush was worse.
Well, yes. But he had a full 8 years. Trump has not even had 3 yet. You gotta give him time.
No, they were just preparing the way.
This.
And as I have said before, I see a direct line from Reagan to Bush Jnr to McCain’s pick of Palin, a line which habituated the Republicans to the idea that you could have an ignoramus and idiot as President (or VP), and you could still get everything you wanted and approved of from the administration. Come to think of it, Bush Snr should be in there too, for his pick of Dan Quayle.
No, they were just preparing the way.
This.
And as I have said before, I see a direct line from Reagan to Bush Jnr to McCain’s pick of Palin, a line which habituated the Republicans to the idea that you could have an ignoramus and idiot as President (or VP), and you could still get everything you wanted and approved of from the administration. Come to think of it, Bush Snr should be in there too, for his pick of Dan Quayle.
Great. Now I want a baked potatoe with my lunch.
Great. Now I want a baked potatoe with my lunch.
OMG
You just can’t make this stuff up.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1178986524630802432?s=20
OMG
You just can’t make this stuff up.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1178986524630802432?s=20
Great. Now I want a baked potatoe with my lunch.
Well, as the American diplomats used to say (off the record), it was the greatest pick a President ever made in order to avoid assassination….
Great. Now I want a baked potatoe with my lunch.
Well, as the American diplomats used to say (off the record), it was the greatest pick a President ever made in order to avoid assassination….
No, they were just preparing the way.
Yup. Remember ‘unitary executive theory’? I do. Unsurpassed executive hubris. Good times.
No, they were just preparing the way.
Yup. Remember ‘unitary executive theory’? I do. Unsurpassed executive hubris. Good times.
I see a direct line from Reagan….
Does it not strike you as odd that Saint Ronnie told an elaborate tale about an urban black woman with her multiple food stamp cards and her Caddy, but not one about an eastern Kentucky hillbilly sitting on the broken down front porch of his shack, sipping illegal moonshine, and living the life off a fake SSI claim?
No? Well, me neither.
I see a direct line from Reagan….
Does it not strike you as odd that Saint Ronnie told an elaborate tale about an urban black woman with her multiple food stamp cards and her Caddy, but not one about an eastern Kentucky hillbilly sitting on the broken down front porch of his shack, sipping illegal moonshine, and living the life off a fake SSI claim?
No? Well, me neither.
Seriously considering writing a chapter of Through the Mocking Crass wherein Allofus meets Trumpy Gumby and illustrated in the style of an Attic vase painting (A mixture of the Trump Baby balloon and Jabba the Hut lounging on a crescent positioned on a crumbling pedestal or Greek column).
Trumpy Gumby bloats at the top
Trumpy Gumby is a great fop
All The Ghoulianis and midges and Barrs
Turn checks and balances into a farce
Seriously considering writing a chapter of Through the Mocking Crass wherein Allofus meets Trumpy Gumby and illustrated in the style of an Attic vase painting (A mixture of the Trump Baby balloon and Jabba the Hut lounging on a crescent positioned on a crumbling pedestal or Greek column).
Trumpy Gumby bloats at the top
Trumpy Gumby is a great fop
All The Ghoulianis and midges and Barrs
Turn checks and balances into a farce
Quayle was great “assassination insurance” against someone who wanted to wind up with a BETTER president.
Against Putin, not so much.
Quayle was great “assassination insurance” against someone who wanted to wind up with a BETTER president.
Against Putin, not so much.
Waiting with fascination to find out what motivated the State Department’s Inspector General to request an “urgent” meeting “to discuss and provide [Congressional] staff with copies of documents related to the State Department and Ukraine.” Given Mr Linick’s history in the post (specifically his vigorous digging after Benghazi), it bodes ill for Pompeo and his boys.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/02/ig-giving-an-urgent-briefing-hill-called-out-politicization-harassment-state-this-summer/
Waiting with fascination to find out what motivated the State Department’s Inspector General to request an “urgent” meeting “to discuss and provide [Congressional] staff with copies of documents related to the State Department and Ukraine.” Given Mr Linick’s history in the post (specifically his vigorous digging after Benghazi), it bodes ill for Pompeo and his boys.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/02/ig-giving-an-urgent-briefing-hill-called-out-politicization-harassment-state-this-summer/
You f**k with people long enough and they start f**king with you back when they get the chance. A well-earned comeuppance, I hope.
You f**k with people long enough and they start f**king with you back when they get the chance. A well-earned comeuppance, I hope.
If Trump is not now impeached, the US is a country without law.
It is blatant, and increasingly well documented, that the lawbreaking and contempt for the constitution extends through the administration:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/04/us-diplomats-told-zelenskiy-ukraine-trump-visit-was-dependent-on-biden-statement-text-investigation
US diplomats told Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, that a prestigious White House visit to meet Donald Trump was dependent on him making a public statement vowing to investigate Hunter Biden’s company, and a Ukrainian role in the 2016 elections, according to texts released on Thursday night.
The texts, released by three congressional committees holding impeachment hearings, show that the diplomats made clear that any improvement in Kyiv’s relations with Washington would be dependent on Zelenskiy’s cooperation in Trump’s quest to find damaging material about son of his leading political opponent, and on the Democrats in general…
If Trump is not now impeached, the US is a country without law.
It is blatant, and increasingly well documented, that the lawbreaking and contempt for the constitution extends through the administration:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/04/us-diplomats-told-zelenskiy-ukraine-trump-visit-was-dependent-on-biden-statement-text-investigation
US diplomats told Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, that a prestigious White House visit to meet Donald Trump was dependent on him making a public statement vowing to investigate Hunter Biden’s company, and a Ukrainian role in the 2016 elections, according to texts released on Thursday night.
The texts, released by three congressional committees holding impeachment hearings, show that the diplomats made clear that any improvement in Kyiv’s relations with Washington would be dependent on Zelenskiy’s cooperation in Trump’s quest to find damaging material about son of his leading political opponent, and on the Democrats in general…
Have just read the texts between Bill Taylor and Gordon Sondland on 9.9.19 at 12.47 a.m. and 5.19 a.m. As clear an example of State Department ass-covering by Sondland (once he realises how incriminating the previous texts are) as I have ever seen, and I have seen a lot.
Have just read the texts between Bill Taylor and Gordon Sondland on 9.9.19 at 12.47 a.m. and 5.19 a.m. As clear an example of State Department ass-covering by Sondland (once he realises how incriminating the previous texts are) as I have ever seen, and I have seen a lot.
Truly, I cannot now see how Trump is not done for. It will be interesting to watch as the rats desert the sinking ship.
Truly, I cannot now see how Trump is not done for. It will be interesting to watch as the rats desert the sinking ship.
With Pence now also under scrutiny the GOP will be LESS inclined to drop Trump. As long as there was a president Pence on offer, GOPsters may have been tempted to go for that but without that, standing by the admin (and its rabid base) will (imo) be the option of default and choice.
The rats know very well that there are piranhas/sharks/bloodthirsty creatures of choice in the water.
With Pence now also under scrutiny the GOP will be LESS inclined to drop Trump. As long as there was a president Pence on offer, GOPsters may have been tempted to go for that but without that, standing by the admin (and its rabid base) will (imo) be the option of default and choice.
The rats know very well that there are piranhas/sharks/bloodthirsty creatures of choice in the water.
All I ask is that the Trump die-hards with the guns stay home.
All I ask is that the Trump die-hards with the guns stay home.
If Trump would have embraced the “Deep State” – the one that actually exists and not the sinister version in his mind – it could have saved him from himself. Instead, he brings in government novices and yes-men who let him go off the rails.
The specifics of what’s now happening weren’t foreseeable, but the broad patterns of this presidency are pretty much what anyone paying attention should have expected. It was only a matter of time.
If Trump would have embraced the “Deep State” – the one that actually exists and not the sinister version in his mind – it could have saved him from himself. Instead, he brings in government novices and yes-men who let him go off the rails.
The specifics of what’s now happening weren’t foreseeable, but the broad patterns of this presidency are pretty much what anyone paying attention should have expected. It was only a matter of time.
How long will it be before those of us who knew what would happen the second the election was called will be referred to as “prematurely anti-Trump”?
How long will it be before those of us who knew what would happen the second the election was called will be referred to as “prematurely anti-Trump”?
I was anti-Trump 30 years ago, so I wouldn’t even know how to take that characterization. (Granted, he wasn’t president then, but I still thought he was a complete a**hole.)
I was anti-Trump 30 years ago, so I wouldn’t even know how to take that characterization. (Granted, he wasn’t president then, but I still thought he was a complete a**hole.)
You were not alone, hairshirt. I wish I could dig up a link to the Capitol Steps song from 1990(!) which begins:
The man was a punchline long before he was anything else.
–TP
You were not alone, hairshirt. I wish I could dig up a link to the Capitol Steps song from 1990(!) which begins:
The man was a punchline long before he was anything else.
–TP
With Pence now also under scrutiny the GOP will be LESS inclined to drop Trump.
Not so sure, Hartmut. After all, the case against Pence, however damning, is still weaker than the one against Trump. They can just refuse to remove Pence. Point out how pure he is by comparison — which, it must be admitted, he is.
With Pence now also under scrutiny the GOP will be LESS inclined to drop Trump.
Not so sure, Hartmut. After all, the case against Pence, however damning, is still weaker than the one against Trump. They can just refuse to remove Pence. Point out how pure he is by comparison — which, it must be admitted, he is.
I’d say Trump and Pence shield each other to a degree. As long as Trump is around, Pence goes more or less unnoticed and unscrutinized and thus remains viable electorally. And the presence of Pence allows old-fashioned GOPsters to hold their nose and support Trump (in a reverse McCain-Palin situation). From their point of view Trump should serve as the diversion to Pence doing what they want (Kristian(TM) and ‘market’ fundamentalism = reactionary social engineering and tax cuts for the rich). The ‘problem’ is that Trump is not just the wished for puppet.
Although of course Trump is not Hitler, those thought processes ran along the same line as those of the German paleocons in 1933: Make that vulgar Austrian plebeian chancellor and ‘frame’* him with proper conservatives that will do the actual governing. The masses will be attracted by him, so we can do what we by ourselves would never get a majority for.
Did not work out either
*the term was ‘Einrahmen’, i.e. putting him into a frame. I think an English equivalent would be ‘bookending’.
I’d say Trump and Pence shield each other to a degree. As long as Trump is around, Pence goes more or less unnoticed and unscrutinized and thus remains viable electorally. And the presence of Pence allows old-fashioned GOPsters to hold their nose and support Trump (in a reverse McCain-Palin situation). From their point of view Trump should serve as the diversion to Pence doing what they want (Kristian(TM) and ‘market’ fundamentalism = reactionary social engineering and tax cuts for the rich). The ‘problem’ is that Trump is not just the wished for puppet.
Although of course Trump is not Hitler, those thought processes ran along the same line as those of the German paleocons in 1933: Make that vulgar Austrian plebeian chancellor and ‘frame’* him with proper conservatives that will do the actual governing. The masses will be attracted by him, so we can do what we by ourselves would never get a majority for.
Did not work out either
*the term was ‘Einrahmen’, i.e. putting him into a frame. I think an English equivalent would be ‘bookending’.
If Trump goes, and Pence goes, we will have POTUS Nancy Pelosi.
At which point the right wing conspiracy wheels will come completely off the bus. I mean, completely.
I’m not a fan of Pence but I can live with him for a year.
If Trump goes, and Pence goes, we will have POTUS Nancy Pelosi.
At which point the right wing conspiracy wheels will come completely off the bus. I mean, completely.
I’m not a fan of Pence but I can live with him for a year.
I’m not a fan of Pence but I can live with him for a year.
Time enough for him to unmask himself while not fully reconciling with the Trumpist base.
Even the Dems could prefer that to a president Pelosi with the senate still in GOP hands.
I’m not a fan of Pence but I can live with him for a year.
Time enough for him to unmask himself while not fully reconciling with the Trumpist base.
Even the Dems could prefer that to a president Pelosi with the senate still in GOP hands.
If Trump goes, and Pence goes, we will have POTUS Nancy Pelosi.
I think not. When Nixon resigned, Agnew had already quit, so that goof ball from OK (IIRC) was theoretically next in line. What they did, by agreement, was to have the house and senate vote Ford in as VP so that Nixon could resign.
The scenario I like is for Trump to resign asap and Pence to assume the office with a pledge that he will not seek the Republican nomination in exchange for a cessation of pending Trump-related investigations.
FWIW, I think the Dems are making a huge strategic error going for Trump’s throat. The left is so much better off, IMO, by continuing to prod the idiot into making his increasingly unhinged tweets. If I were calling the Dem shots, I’d slow roll impeachment and let Trump self-immolate over time and hope that he would be the Republican candidate.
But that’s not going to happen. I think things are unfolding too fast and the tipping point is just about there. There is more than a bit of similarity with Nixon’s downfall. Back then, as the evidence began to accumulate, the national Repubs could see their hold on the 20% or so of the moderate/right voters slipping. Nixon retained 25-30% loyalty right up until the end, but the national Repubs calculated, correctly, that regardless of what happened to Nixon, they would keep Nixon’s loyalists because there was nowhere else to go. What they needed to do was retain the other 20% or so and that was Nixon’s undoing. I see the same dynamic at work here. Today, it’s a trickle of Republicans, but more of a trickle than last week. Before too long, the trickle will swell into a stream and at that point, it’s game over.
Trump is doing what the Dems could not–convincing the public, including a lot of the public that voted for him, that he is nuts and should not be president. Trump is so far around the bend that continuing to support him publicly will create a long-term branding problem that most pundits and politicians can’t risk.
Exhibit A in support of this thesis is Rick Perry’s impending resignation. Perry doesn’t do anything without being told what to do by people a lot smarter and more strategically disposed than he will ever be. Important people behind the scenes think Trump is done and that it’s time for him to go.
If Trump goes, and Pence goes, we will have POTUS Nancy Pelosi.
I think not. When Nixon resigned, Agnew had already quit, so that goof ball from OK (IIRC) was theoretically next in line. What they did, by agreement, was to have the house and senate vote Ford in as VP so that Nixon could resign.
The scenario I like is for Trump to resign asap and Pence to assume the office with a pledge that he will not seek the Republican nomination in exchange for a cessation of pending Trump-related investigations.
FWIW, I think the Dems are making a huge strategic error going for Trump’s throat. The left is so much better off, IMO, by continuing to prod the idiot into making his increasingly unhinged tweets. If I were calling the Dem shots, I’d slow roll impeachment and let Trump self-immolate over time and hope that he would be the Republican candidate.
But that’s not going to happen. I think things are unfolding too fast and the tipping point is just about there. There is more than a bit of similarity with Nixon’s downfall. Back then, as the evidence began to accumulate, the national Repubs could see their hold on the 20% or so of the moderate/right voters slipping. Nixon retained 25-30% loyalty right up until the end, but the national Repubs calculated, correctly, that regardless of what happened to Nixon, they would keep Nixon’s loyalists because there was nowhere else to go. What they needed to do was retain the other 20% or so and that was Nixon’s undoing. I see the same dynamic at work here. Today, it’s a trickle of Republicans, but more of a trickle than last week. Before too long, the trickle will swell into a stream and at that point, it’s game over.
Trump is doing what the Dems could not–convincing the public, including a lot of the public that voted for him, that he is nuts and should not be president. Trump is so far around the bend that continuing to support him publicly will create a long-term branding problem that most pundits and politicians can’t risk.
Exhibit A in support of this thesis is Rick Perry’s impending resignation. Perry doesn’t do anything without being told what to do by people a lot smarter and more strategically disposed than he will ever be. Important people behind the scenes think Trump is done and that it’s time for him to go.
The other thing Trump is doing is damaging Biden. (However baseless his charges actually are.) So the longer he stays, the more likely it is that someone far more liberal than Biden will be the Democratic nominee, and thus the next President.
Hard, if you’re a real conservative (as opposed to the kind of conservative-of-convenience that so many Republicans in Congress have shown themselves to be) to get enthused about keeping Trump a day longer than necessary. I’d look for a bunch of big Republican donors to be on the phone to their boys in Congress saying: “Get rid of this chump ASAP! Otherwise, no money for you going forward.”
The other thing Trump is doing is damaging Biden. (However baseless his charges actually are.) So the longer he stays, the more likely it is that someone far more liberal than Biden will be the Democratic nominee, and thus the next President.
Hard, if you’re a real conservative (as opposed to the kind of conservative-of-convenience that so many Republicans in Congress have shown themselves to be) to get enthused about keeping Trump a day longer than necessary. I’d look for a bunch of big Republican donors to be on the phone to their boys in Congress saying: “Get rid of this chump ASAP! Otherwise, no money for you going forward.”
Trump is so far around the bend that continuing to support him publicly will create a long-term branding problem that most pundits and politicians can’t risk.
Well, they have supported him through a lot of obvious treasonous [using the layman’s term] crimes, because they’re weak, cowardly, racist and greedy. Trump hasn’t been a good looking brand for any audience with scruples, but plenty of Americans seem to be just fine with the product.
I am not counting chickens, although hope is good.
Trump is so far around the bend that continuing to support him publicly will create a long-term branding problem that most pundits and politicians can’t risk.
Well, they have supported him through a lot of obvious treasonous [using the layman’s term] crimes, because they’re weak, cowardly, racist and greedy. Trump hasn’t been a good looking brand for any audience with scruples, but plenty of Americans seem to be just fine with the product.
I am not counting chickens, although hope is good.
When Nixon resigned, Agnew had already quit, so that goof ball from OK (IIRC) was theoretically next in line. What they did, by agreement, was to have the house and senate vote Ford in as VP so that Nixon could resign.
Agnew resigned in Oct., ’73. Nixon consulted with Congressional leadership and they told him “Ford or nobody”. So Ford it was. Ford was sworn in as VP in December. Nixon didn’t resign until August 9, ’74. Ford was not made VP “so Nixon could resign”.
Nixon’s “support” poll numbers began crashing in February, ’73, and by the time of the Agnew resignation were already at or near the lows that would immediately precede his quitting office. The GOP leadership took longer to come around.
McKinney’s prescription above would be deadly to Democrats as such political cowardice would totally turn off the base…sadly, as we all know, the Democratic Base is expendable, but the GOP Base must be appeased under all circumstances.
And lastly, we all know whose side McKinney is on.
When Nixon resigned, Agnew had already quit, so that goof ball from OK (IIRC) was theoretically next in line. What they did, by agreement, was to have the house and senate vote Ford in as VP so that Nixon could resign.
Agnew resigned in Oct., ’73. Nixon consulted with Congressional leadership and they told him “Ford or nobody”. So Ford it was. Ford was sworn in as VP in December. Nixon didn’t resign until August 9, ’74. Ford was not made VP “so Nixon could resign”.
Nixon’s “support” poll numbers began crashing in February, ’73, and by the time of the Agnew resignation were already at or near the lows that would immediately precede his quitting office. The GOP leadership took longer to come around.
McKinney’s prescription above would be deadly to Democrats as such political cowardice would totally turn off the base…sadly, as we all know, the Democratic Base is expendable, but the GOP Base must be appeased under all circumstances.
And lastly, we all know whose side McKinney is on.
Agnew resigned in Oct., ’73. Nixon consulted with Congressional leadership and they told him “Ford or nobody”. So Ford it was.
Suppose Pence resigned. (He won’t, of course, but just suppose.) Who do we think the Republican Congressional leadership would put forward as a replacement? Bearing in mind that they would know that, if they didn’t come up with someone who the Democrats in the House would agree to, they would be looking at a President Pelosi. Something to think about….
Agnew resigned in Oct., ’73. Nixon consulted with Congressional leadership and they told him “Ford or nobody”. So Ford it was.
Suppose Pence resigned. (He won’t, of course, but just suppose.) Who do we think the Republican Congressional leadership would put forward as a replacement? Bearing in mind that they would know that, if they didn’t come up with someone who the Democrats in the House would agree to, they would be looking at a President Pelosi. Something to think about….
if you’re a real conservative
What the heck is a ‘real’ conservative? Is that like me being a ‘real’ communist? I sure hope so. Lately I’ve been having some doubts. Could be the cheap wine.
if you’re a real conservative
What the heck is a ‘real’ conservative? Is that like me being a ‘real’ communist? I sure hope so. Lately I’ve been having some doubts. Could be the cheap wine.
Just in time for this conversation.
Just in time for this conversation.
Petri has a gift for real zingers.
There’s also this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/jeff-flake-fellow-republicans-theres-still-time-to-save-your-souls/2019/09/30/ade876f6-e2d3-11e9-b403-f738899982d2_story.html
Not sure I entirely agree with him, actually. But for some there perhaps is.
Petri has a gift for real zingers.
There’s also this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/jeff-flake-fellow-republicans-theres-still-time-to-save-your-souls/2019/09/30/ade876f6-e2d3-11e9-b403-f738899982d2_story.html
Not sure I entirely agree with him, actually. But for some there perhaps is.
Who do we think the Republican Congressional leadership would put forward as a replacement?
Since left wing Republicans are long extinct, I have not a clue.
Who do we think the Republican Congressional leadership would put forward as a replacement?
Since left wing Republicans are long extinct, I have not a clue.
I think not.
I was simply referring to the rules for succession.
FWIW, I have no problem with POTUS Pelosi on the merits, I just think right-wing heads would explode and people would get hurt. Like, literally.
I’m not sure conservatives appreciate how widespread, and how toxic, the 2nd A solution crap is. Imagine Thullen, times 10 or 20 or 50 thousand, except they actually do have guns and it’s not a joke. When People Like Me think about what needs to happen in order to move forward, we have to factor in the reality of all of the oathkeeper and 3 percenter types and their ilk.
I wouldn’t want to see POTUS Pelosi because I think people would get killed, and it wouldn’t be worth it. I can live with Pence for a year.
Thanks for nothing, all you Gadsden flag folks. You’re terrorists. Be grateful you aren’t treated as such. And quit pressing your luck.
As far as “slow rolling” impeachment, if this isn’t that I don’t know what is.
To be honest, I have no idea where this mess is going to end up. Trump is destroying this country.
I think not.
I was simply referring to the rules for succession.
FWIW, I have no problem with POTUS Pelosi on the merits, I just think right-wing heads would explode and people would get hurt. Like, literally.
I’m not sure conservatives appreciate how widespread, and how toxic, the 2nd A solution crap is. Imagine Thullen, times 10 or 20 or 50 thousand, except they actually do have guns and it’s not a joke. When People Like Me think about what needs to happen in order to move forward, we have to factor in the reality of all of the oathkeeper and 3 percenter types and their ilk.
I wouldn’t want to see POTUS Pelosi because I think people would get killed, and it wouldn’t be worth it. I can live with Pence for a year.
Thanks for nothing, all you Gadsden flag folks. You’re terrorists. Be grateful you aren’t treated as such. And quit pressing your luck.
As far as “slow rolling” impeachment, if this isn’t that I don’t know what is.
To be honest, I have no idea where this mess is going to end up. Trump is destroying this country.
Reality check: Unless the P or the VP is impeached (convicted by the Senate and removed from office (in the case of Clickbait, probably by force)) and the other one dies of natural causes five minutes later, leaving no time to install a new VP, there is not going to be a President Pelosi. Moscow Mitch’s Senate is not going to impeach anyone if the result is installing Pelosi in the Oval Office.
I can’t see the House and Senate agreeing on any VP choice under any circumstances either. SRSLY, who could possibly pass that test?
Reality check: Unless the P or the VP is impeached (convicted by the Senate and removed from office (in the case of Clickbait, probably by force)) and the other one dies of natural causes five minutes later, leaving no time to install a new VP, there is not going to be a President Pelosi. Moscow Mitch’s Senate is not going to impeach anyone if the result is installing Pelosi in the Oval Office.
I can’t see the House and Senate agreeing on any VP choice under any circumstances either. SRSLY, who could possibly pass that test?