by Ugh
This whole Florence thing has the 9YO freaked out. Living just outside DC on the MD side makes me think he might be overly worried but that's his mojo.
In other news, I can't really say Serena was robbed (if anyone it was Osaka who was clearly outplaying the legend up to that point and had her celebration spoiled), but that ump has got to go. I mean, WTF?
Is it just me or is Kavanaugh "at first glance likable but is really just a prick" whereas Gorsuch is just prick through and through? Not that it matters.
Open thread for your U.S. of We're So Screwed A.
Meh.
UPDATE: Everyone is required to read this Adam Serwer piece. Srsly
i’m a little freaked out.
we’re far enough off the coast that he wind shouldn’t be more than 50mph or so (!). our friends in Wilmington, tho.
but we’ll still get all the rain – “historic” levels of rain, according to the map our local police dept put on their FB feed this AM.
i’m a little freaked out.
we’re far enough off the coast that he wind shouldn’t be more than 50mph or so (!). our friends in Wilmington, tho.
but we’ll still get all the rain – “historic” levels of rain, according to the map our local police dept put on their FB feed this AM.
Yeah I feel for ya’ “feet” of rain is no joke
Yeah I feel for ya’ “feet” of rain is no joke
The Economist’s daily Espresso e-mail reports:
Not everything is political. Basically positive reports include this
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/ocean-cleanup-launches-to-take-on-the-great-pacific-garbage-patch.html
and this
https://www.breitbart.com/california/2018/09/10/2000-foot-long-ocean-cleanup-launches-to-trap-pacific-ocean-plastic/
The Economist’s daily Espresso e-mail reports:
Not everything is political. Basically positive reports include this
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/ocean-cleanup-launches-to-take-on-the-great-pacific-garbage-patch.html
and this
https://www.breitbart.com/california/2018/09/10/2000-foot-long-ocean-cleanup-launches-to-trap-pacific-ocean-plastic/
An excellent point from that Adam Serwer piece:
“Those who wish to see justice in their lifetime will have go to the polls and seize it.”
Do it! (Not that the folks here need any urging, I suspect.)
An excellent point from that Adam Serwer piece:
“Those who wish to see justice in their lifetime will have go to the polls and seize it.”
Do it! (Not that the folks here need any urging, I suspect.)
Ironically, Chicago, in McDonald v. Chicago, referenced United States v. Cruikshank in support of its gun control laws.
Ironically, Chicago, in McDonald v. Chicago, referenced United States v. Cruikshank in support of its gun control laws.
Excellent if rather depressing read, Ugh.
Good luck to everyone in the path of the hurricane. Stay safe!
Excellent if rather depressing read, Ugh.
Good luck to everyone in the path of the hurricane. Stay safe!
Kavanaugh reminds of the Scorpio Killer(Andrew Robinson)in the first Dirty Harry Movie. I don’t know why unless, perhaps, the term Punk has something to do with it.
I wished I had that Serwer information prior to being naturalized. However if everyone follows wj’s recommendation it may yet become better.
Kavanaugh reminds of the Scorpio Killer(Andrew Robinson)in the first Dirty Harry Movie. I don’t know why unless, perhaps, the term Punk has something to do with it.
I wished I had that Serwer information prior to being naturalized. However if everyone follows wj’s recommendation it may yet become better.
Just for a bit of light relief, this is an article about all the people Trump says start crying when they meet him, almost always one particular kind of person:
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/analysis/2018/09/08/according-to-donald-trump-a-lot-of-people-are-crying-around-donald-trump.html
Halfway through, my favourite sentence:
The crying characters in Trump’s stories tend to share three characteristics: they are male, they are “tough” or “strong,” and they do not have names.
Just for a bit of light relief, this is an article about all the people Trump says start crying when they meet him, almost always one particular kind of person:
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/analysis/2018/09/08/according-to-donald-trump-a-lot-of-people-are-crying-around-donald-trump.html
Halfway through, my favourite sentence:
The crying characters in Trump’s stories tend to share three characteristics: they are male, they are “tough” or “strong,” and they do not have names.
cleek, stay safe. As I mentioned, I have people in your neck of the woods, so I’ll be thinking about them and you, then the hurricane is headed our way. Of course, it won’t be a hurricane by the time it gets here, but our ground is so saturated from so much rain already this year that it won’t be good if the storm hangs around a la Harvey.
Yes, cleek, please stock up on supplies, or even evacuate. We’ll be okay here in C’ville if that tree out yonder doesn’t fall on our house.
cleek, stay safe. As I mentioned, I have people in your neck of the woods, so I’ll be thinking about them and you, then the hurricane is headed our way. Of course, it won’t be a hurricane by the time it gets here, but our ground is so saturated from so much rain already this year that it won’t be good if the storm hangs around a la Harvey.
Yes, cleek, please stock up on supplies, or even evacuate. We’ll be okay here in C’ville if that tree out yonder doesn’t fall on our house.
Run from the water, hide from the wind.
Seriously, if you have large trees in your yard, move out of their path if they get blown over. Ditto overhead power lines. Do you have 2-4 days of drinking water and canned food?
Run from the water, hide from the wind.
Seriously, if you have large trees in your yard, move out of their path if they get blown over. Ditto overhead power lines. Do you have 2-4 days of drinking water and canned food?
By “move out of their path” I mean find a place in the house that won’t cave in if they are blown over. Someplace that won’t be hit by the falling trees. Shit, I hope this makes sense.
By “move out of their path” I mean find a place in the house that won’t cave in if they are blown over. Someplace that won’t be hit by the falling trees. Shit, I hope this makes sense.
OK, the Serwer piece was pretty grim.
But I do note that we no longer have a newspaper of record named “The Caucasian”.
We have a nation founded on the concept of “liberty”, but not common understanding of what that word means.
Stay safe, all you southern Atlantic coasters.
OK, the Serwer piece was pretty grim.
But I do note that we no longer have a newspaper of record named “The Caucasian”.
We have a nation founded on the concept of “liberty”, but not common understanding of what that word means.
Stay safe, all you southern Atlantic coasters.
two cases of bottled water and we’re filling three bathtubs Thursday night. we should be OK.
lots of beer in the garage.
one can of spam. but how much spam can you eat, anyway?
we have lots of frozen soup in the freezers, and a propane grill and a butane camp stove.
we’ll be eating like kings, if the power goes out – scavenging everything out of the freezers.
our biggest concern is electricity – lose that, lose water and AC and contact with the world. water. and a landslide, because our house is on a hill. but it’s been raining since May and we haven’t slid off yet.
two cases of bottled water and we’re filling three bathtubs Thursday night. we should be OK.
lots of beer in the garage.
one can of spam. but how much spam can you eat, anyway?
we have lots of frozen soup in the freezers, and a propane grill and a butane camp stove.
we’ll be eating like kings, if the power goes out – scavenging everything out of the freezers.
our biggest concern is electricity – lose that, lose water and AC and contact with the world. water. and a landslide, because our house is on a hill. but it’s been raining since May and we haven’t slid off yet.
trees…. those are a big fear. we’ve had plenty cut down, but there are still a couple that i wish i would’ve have shelled out the cash to get cut down.
wind’s going to be coming from the…? well, depends on the hour, i guess.
we’ll see.
trees…. those are a big fear. we’ve had plenty cut down, but there are still a couple that i wish i would’ve have shelled out the cash to get cut down.
wind’s going to be coming from the…? well, depends on the hour, i guess.
we’ll see.
The wind is circular. If landfall is south, go to the north side. If on the north, the opposite. As it moves west/ north, orient 180 opposite. Get a chainsaw with gas and oil if you can. With leather gloves and a good first aid kit. Good luck. Lay low.
The wind is circular. If landfall is south, go to the north side. If on the north, the opposite. As it moves west/ north, orient 180 opposite. Get a chainsaw with gas and oil if you can. With leather gloves and a good first aid kit. Good luck. Lay low.
After Ike, we-the neighborhood- had to cut our way out to the nearest main thoroughfare. It takes teamwork to open up arteries so that you can get people to hospitals and whatnot.
After Ike, we-the neighborhood- had to cut our way out to the nearest main thoroughfare. It takes teamwork to open up arteries so that you can get people to hospitals and whatnot.
Good advice, McKinney. Thank you.
Good advice, McKinney. Thank you.
Be safe.
Be safe.
our neighborhood is exchanging emails about “who has chain saws? who has a generator?” some people are going to park cars out near the main road, in case trees fall on our little neighborhood road and block us in.
very exiting.
i just heard “thirty inches of rain” in some places. holy crap.
our neighborhood is exchanging emails about “who has chain saws? who has a generator?” some people are going to park cars out near the main road, in case trees fall on our little neighborhood road and block us in.
very exiting.
i just heard “thirty inches of rain” in some places. holy crap.
Be sure to let us know you’re OK cleek, when possible and appropriate. Also, anybody else affected. Again, good luck.
Be sure to let us know you’re OK cleek, when possible and appropriate. Also, anybody else affected. Again, good luck.
Meanwhile, since this is an OT, someone sent me this Donald Trump tweet from 2013:
I would like to extend my best wishes to all, even the haters and losers, on this special date, September 11th.
Special date! Words are insufficient….
Meanwhile, since this is an OT, someone sent me this Donald Trump tweet from 2013:
I would like to extend my best wishes to all, even the haters and losers, on this special date, September 11th.
Special date! Words are insufficient….
it was nice of him to include us haters and losers, though.
it was nice of him to include us haters and losers, though.
at least he’s grown up since then
at least he’s grown up since then
i just heard “thirty inches of rain” in some places. holy crap.
The European model has Florence stalling just off Wilmington and sitting there for three days or so, pumping in rain. Wilmington is right at the edge of the area labeled 45″ accumulated precipitation by Monday on the map. The NWS seems to be trying to not be as pessimistic as the European model, which got both Sandy and Harvey almost exactly right.
i just heard “thirty inches of rain” in some places. holy crap.
The European model has Florence stalling just off Wilmington and sitting there for three days or so, pumping in rain. Wilmington is right at the edge of the area labeled 45″ accumulated precipitation by Monday on the map. The NWS seems to be trying to not be as pessimistic as the European model, which got both Sandy and Harvey almost exactly right.
the whole eastern third of NC is former sea bottom – low and flat. that water is going to sit there with nowhere to go.
expect a lot of pictures of flooded neighborhoods next week.
yuck.
the whole eastern third of NC is former sea bottom – low and flat. that water is going to sit there with nowhere to go.
expect a lot of pictures of flooded neighborhoods next week.
yuck.
Hope we hear from dr ngo.
Hope we hear from dr ngo.
Again since this is an OT, for fascinating light relief:
Dolphins Seem to use Pufferfish to get High
Again since this is an OT, for fascinating light relief:
Dolphins Seem to use Pufferfish to get High
The European model has Florence stalling just off Wilmington and sitting there for three days or so, pumping in rain.
Well, it’s not 40 days and 40 nights. But for those waiting in great anticipation for the apocalypse, it’s a start.
The European model has Florence stalling just off Wilmington and sitting there for three days or so, pumping in rain.
Well, it’s not 40 days and 40 nights. But for those waiting in great anticipation for the apocalypse, it’s a start.
I would like to extend my best wishes to all, even the haters and losers, on this special date, September 11th.
Most days, he seems to be struggling to decide between low class and no class. But then something like this happens, and he shows where his heart is: no class at all.
I would like to extend my best wishes to all, even the haters and losers, on this special date, September 11th.
Most days, he seems to be struggling to decide between low class and no class. But then something like this happens, and he shows where his heart is: no class at all.
our neighborhood is exchanging emails about “who has chain saws? who has a generator?” some people are going to park cars out near the main road, in case trees fall on our little neighborhood road and block us in.
We got 50″ from Harvey and then the Army Corp of Engineers opened up two reservoirs. Really bad flooding. If you expect significant flooding and if you can evacuate, you should. Seriously. Unless your garage has a large tree next to it, I’d leave the the cars inside. Blown items will break windows and cars can actually blow over in high enough winds.
our neighborhood is exchanging emails about “who has chain saws? who has a generator?” some people are going to park cars out near the main road, in case trees fall on our little neighborhood road and block us in.
We got 50″ from Harvey and then the Army Corp of Engineers opened up two reservoirs. Really bad flooding. If you expect significant flooding and if you can evacuate, you should. Seriously. Unless your garage has a large tree next to it, I’d leave the the cars inside. Blown items will break windows and cars can actually blow over in high enough winds.
Just because some here seem to have a problem with the concept of a moderate/sensible Republican. Yesterday, I got a flyer from my Republican state Assemblywoman touting her endorsement . . . by Governor Brown! Yup, Democratic governor endorsing Republican member of the Assembly for reasonable policies and “working across the aisle.”
It does happen!
Just because some here seem to have a problem with the concept of a moderate/sensible Republican. Yesterday, I got a flyer from my Republican state Assemblywoman touting her endorsement . . . by Governor Brown! Yup, Democratic governor endorsing Republican member of the Assembly for reasonable policies and “working across the aisle.”
It does happen!
i don’t expect flooding in our neighborhood. we’re about 60′ up on a good sized ridge between a river and a lake. i’m more worried about our house sliding off the ridge.
i don’t expect flooding in our neighborhood. we’re about 60′ up on a good sized ridge between a river and a lake. i’m more worried about our house sliding off the ridge.
Unless your house is built on a sloped grade, you should be ok, assuming the ridge doesn’t erode out from under you. How far away is the river? In a high flood, they can chew up a lot of new bank.
Unless your house is built on a sloped grade, you should be ok, assuming the ridge doesn’t erode out from under you. How far away is the river? In a high flood, they can chew up a lot of new bank.
Regardless of how the storm plays out, you probably shouldn’t rely too heavily on the Feds.
“The East Coast is scrambling as residents prepare for Hurricane Florence’s landfall later this week. States of emergency have been declared in North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia, with government officials warning people to take Florence very seriously.
More than a million people have been forced to evacuate their homes, including everyone on the coast of South Carolina. Long story short: Florence is a big deal. It’s already been upgraded to a Category 4 storm, and could even become the first Category 5 hurricane to hit the Southeastern coastal region.”
FEMA Is Almost Certainly Not Ready for Hurricane Florence: If FEMA’s prior record when it comes to disaster response is any indication, the agency is not going to handle this well.
Regardless of how the storm plays out, you probably shouldn’t rely too heavily on the Feds.
“The East Coast is scrambling as residents prepare for Hurricane Florence’s landfall later this week. States of emergency have been declared in North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia, with government officials warning people to take Florence very seriously.
More than a million people have been forced to evacuate their homes, including everyone on the coast of South Carolina. Long story short: Florence is a big deal. It’s already been upgraded to a Category 4 storm, and could even become the first Category 5 hurricane to hit the Southeastern coastal region.”
FEMA Is Almost Certainly Not Ready for Hurricane Florence: If FEMA’s prior record when it comes to disaster response is any indication, the agency is not going to handle this well.
Unless your house is built on a sloped grade
it is. it’s about 7′ higher in front.
How far away is the river?
about 500′
Unless your house is built on a sloped grade
it is. it’s about 7′ higher in front.
How far away is the river?
about 500′
Most days, he seems to be struggling to decide between low class and no class. But then something like this happens, and he shows where his heart is: no class at all.
On the other hand, let’s not forget that it was a special day for him – from a radio interview on 9/11:
A little more than a minute later, Marcus asked whether Trump’s 40 Wall Street building had suffered any damage. Before getting into his response about his Financial District property, the businessman had something he wanted on the record.
“40 Wall Street actually was the second-tallest building in downtown Manhattan, and it was actually, before the World Trade Center, was the tallest — and then, when they built the World Trade Center, it became known as the second tallest,” Trump said in the WWOR interview. “And now it’s the tallest.”
(from the Washington Post’s Morning Mix).
It’s hard to avoid the conclusion: the man’s a sociopath.
Most days, he seems to be struggling to decide between low class and no class. But then something like this happens, and he shows where his heart is: no class at all.
On the other hand, let’s not forget that it was a special day for him – from a radio interview on 9/11:
A little more than a minute later, Marcus asked whether Trump’s 40 Wall Street building had suffered any damage. Before getting into his response about his Financial District property, the businessman had something he wanted on the record.
“40 Wall Street actually was the second-tallest building in downtown Manhattan, and it was actually, before the World Trade Center, was the tallest — and then, when they built the World Trade Center, it became known as the second tallest,” Trump said in the WWOR interview. “And now it’s the tallest.”
(from the Washington Post’s Morning Mix).
It’s hard to avoid the conclusion: the man’s a sociopath.
It’s hard to avoid the conclusion: the man’s a sociopath.
Or he could have been pointing out in a clumsy way that, without the World Trade Center, 40 Wall Street might have been the target. Or could be a target in the future.
It’s hard to avoid the conclusion: the man’s a sociopath.
Or he could have been pointing out in a clumsy way that, without the World Trade Center, 40 Wall Street might have been the target. Or could be a target in the future.
i just heard “thirty inches of rain” in some places. holy crap.
At the risk of being inappropriately facetious, wouldn’t that be holy piss …?
Anyway, good luck, cleek.
(I honeymooned in the Caribbean during Hugo, so I empathise.)
i just heard “thirty inches of rain” in some places. holy crap.
At the risk of being inappropriately facetious, wouldn’t that be holy piss …?
Anyway, good luck, cleek.
(I honeymooned in the Caribbean during Hugo, so I empathise.)
Unless your house is built on a sloped grade
it is. it’s about 7′ higher in front.
How far away is the river?
about 500′
Damn again. Good luck. Keep us posted.
Unless your house is built on a sloped grade
it is. it’s about 7′ higher in front.
How far away is the river?
about 500′
Damn again. Good luck. Keep us posted.
Or he could have been pointing out in a clumsy way that, without the World Trade Center, 40 Wall Street might have been the target. Or could be a target in the future.
Indeed he could. And in support of your suggestion, he might have been worried about future damage to his building and its inhabitants. Because the alternative would suggest boastfulness and self-aggrandisement. Tell us, CharlesWT, given your observation of his behaviour and motivation over the years, which do you think more likely?
Or he could have been pointing out in a clumsy way that, without the World Trade Center, 40 Wall Street might have been the target. Or could be a target in the future.
Indeed he could. And in support of your suggestion, he might have been worried about future damage to his building and its inhabitants. Because the alternative would suggest boastfulness and self-aggrandisement. Tell us, CharlesWT, given your observation of his behaviour and motivation over the years, which do you think more likely?
If you’re looking for them, Trump will give you a nearly endless number of opportunities to see him as a despicable human being. A non-zero number of them will be false positives.
If you’re looking for them, Trump will give you a nearly endless number of opportunities to see him as a despicable human being. A non-zero number of them will be false positives.
Tell us, CharlesWT, given your observation of his behaviour and motivation over the years, which do you think more likely?
Both could be true.
Tell us, CharlesWT, given your observation of his behaviour and motivation over the years, which do you think more likely?
Both could be true.
I’ve just looked up definitions of sociopathy CharlesWT. Trump displays all of them. I said it was hard to avoid the conclusion he is a sociopath, not impossible. Given the context of his tweeting in 2013 “I would like to extend my best wishes to all, even the haters and losers, on this special date, September 11th.”, congratulations, you managed a difficult task.
I’ve just looked up definitions of sociopathy CharlesWT. Trump displays all of them. I said it was hard to avoid the conclusion he is a sociopath, not impossible. Given the context of his tweeting in 2013 “I would like to extend my best wishes to all, even the haters and losers, on this special date, September 11th.”, congratulations, you managed a difficult task.
I would be greatly surprised if more than a few politicians at the federal level weren’t sociopaths to some degree.
I would be greatly surprised if more than a few politicians at the federal level weren’t sociopaths to some degree.
Just because some here seem to have a problem with the concept of a moderate/sensible Republican.
Well, that depends on what a so-called ‘moderate’ Republican espouses in the way of public policy.
Look, the major gripe (well, mine anyway) is this: Uppity libruls took up the cause of Civil Rights and permanently sundered the New Deal coalition. It took some years, but white southern Dems migrated to the GOP in droves.
The uppity ‘moderate’ Repubs have not made any move to push things to the limit and yell loudly, “Enough you fucking assholes! Enough!” When it comes to the point where they could have some real leverage, they continue to be mere lickspittle and let the radical right run things.
Some high minded opposition, that.
Just because some here seem to have a problem with the concept of a moderate/sensible Republican.
Well, that depends on what a so-called ‘moderate’ Republican espouses in the way of public policy.
Look, the major gripe (well, mine anyway) is this: Uppity libruls took up the cause of Civil Rights and permanently sundered the New Deal coalition. It took some years, but white southern Dems migrated to the GOP in droves.
The uppity ‘moderate’ Repubs have not made any move to push things to the limit and yell loudly, “Enough you fucking assholes! Enough!” When it comes to the point where they could have some real leverage, they continue to be mere lickspittle and let the radical right run things.
Some high minded opposition, that.
CharlesWT @ 02.59: something at least on which we can agree.
CharlesWT @ 02.59: something at least on which we can agree.
http://juanitajean.com/phew-thank-god-thats-over/
Robertson has yer back, cleek and company.
There are disqualifiers for receivIng God’s shield from the catastrophe.
See the list.
http://juanitajean.com/phew-thank-god-thats-over/
Robertson has yer back, cleek and company.
There are disqualifiers for receivIng God’s shield from the catastrophe.
See the list.
Robertson has yer back, cleek and company.
go up north..?
A non-zero number of them will be false positives.
Whatever.
I would be greatly surprised if more than a few politicians at the federal level weren’t sociopaths to some degree.
Of course. And, naturally, nowhere else.
Robertson has yer back, cleek and company.
go up north..?
A non-zero number of them will be false positives.
Whatever.
I would be greatly surprised if more than a few politicians at the federal level weren’t sociopaths to some degree.
Of course. And, naturally, nowhere else.
Sociopaths: a plurality in America
Sociopaths: a plurality in America
Look, the major gripe (well, mine anyway) is this: Uppity libruls took up the cause of Civil Rights and permanently sundered the New Deal coalition. It took some years, but white southern Dems migrated to the GOP in droves.
Be assured that it’s a major gripe of us moderate Republicans. If youall want them back, be our guest!
The uppity ‘moderate’ Repubs have not made any move to push things to the limit and yell loudly, “Enough you fucking assholes! Enough!” When it comes to the point where they could have some real leverage, they continue to be mere lickspittle and let the radical right run things.
The challenge is to figure out where and when there actually is leverage. And when the most that can be done is to tend your own garden — that is, do your own job in government, ignoring the nut cases and their agenda.
In my case, I’ve got a Republican legislator who is a) pro-choice, b) pro gun control, c) pro gay rights. Makes no secret of the fact.
Is there anything she can do to move the state (let alone national) party towards sanity? Not that I can see. Beyond the obvious of winning elections while they keep losing them (outside their shrinking enclaves). Sometimes, all you can do is all you can do.
Look, the major gripe (well, mine anyway) is this: Uppity libruls took up the cause of Civil Rights and permanently sundered the New Deal coalition. It took some years, but white southern Dems migrated to the GOP in droves.
Be assured that it’s a major gripe of us moderate Republicans. If youall want them back, be our guest!
The uppity ‘moderate’ Repubs have not made any move to push things to the limit and yell loudly, “Enough you fucking assholes! Enough!” When it comes to the point where they could have some real leverage, they continue to be mere lickspittle and let the radical right run things.
The challenge is to figure out where and when there actually is leverage. And when the most that can be done is to tend your own garden — that is, do your own job in government, ignoring the nut cases and their agenda.
In my case, I’ve got a Republican legislator who is a) pro-choice, b) pro gun control, c) pro gay rights. Makes no secret of the fact.
Is there anything she can do to move the state (let alone national) party towards sanity? Not that I can see. Beyond the obvious of winning elections while they keep losing them (outside their shrinking enclaves). Sometimes, all you can do is all you can do.
Is there anything she can do to move the state (let alone national) party towards sanity? Not that I can see.
Switch parties?
Probably wouldn’t matter in CA, but it sure would in DC. If some of the alleged “moderates” switched, or formed an independent caucus, they might deprive the lunatics of the control that comes with being in the majority. If there were even 2 or 3 they would have some leverage in the current setup.
Is there anything she can do to move the state (let alone national) party towards sanity? Not that I can see.
Switch parties?
Probably wouldn’t matter in CA, but it sure would in DC. If some of the alleged “moderates” switched, or formed an independent caucus, they might deprive the lunatics of the control that comes with being in the majority. If there were even 2 or 3 they would have some leverage in the current setup.
> Kavanaugh
I must be glancing wrong, because Kavanaugh seems completely unlikeable to me, in much the same way that Mitt Romney does, except worse.
A completely artificial personna.
> Kavanaugh
I must be glancing wrong, because Kavanaugh seems completely unlikeable to me, in much the same way that Mitt Romney does, except worse.
A completely artificial personna.
A non-zero number of them will be false positives.
Whatever.
Sorry, that was probably unnecessarily dismissive.
In general I agree that nobody is as bad as their personal hype would make them out to be.
In Trump’s case, I’m not sure. He actually might be as big a jerk as he appears to be.
Do you know of cases where his apparent behavior was not as bad in fact as it seemed? I’m not. I’m sure examples could be found, somewhere – long ago Marty dug up something where he was nice to Bob Kraft, and he seems awfully fond of Hope Hicks in a non-lecherous way – but in general I’m not aware of anything like that.
In any case, some number of “false positives” doesn’t make up for the fact that he is profoundly and harmfully unfit for the position he holds.
A non-zero number of them will be false positives.
Whatever.
Sorry, that was probably unnecessarily dismissive.
In general I agree that nobody is as bad as their personal hype would make them out to be.
In Trump’s case, I’m not sure. He actually might be as big a jerk as he appears to be.
Do you know of cases where his apparent behavior was not as bad in fact as it seemed? I’m not. I’m sure examples could be found, somewhere – long ago Marty dug up something where he was nice to Bob Kraft, and he seems awfully fond of Hope Hicks in a non-lecherous way – but in general I’m not aware of anything like that.
In any case, some number of “false positives” doesn’t make up for the fact that he is profoundly and harmfully unfit for the position he holds.
byomtov,
Yup, I can see it doing some good in DC. But, as you note, it’s irrelevant in California. The only question in our legislature is whether the Democrats will have a veto-proof/state-constitution-amending 2/3 majority or not. So being the (potential) nucleus of a new, electable (i.e. sane) GOP is more useful.
byomtov,
Yup, I can see it doing some good in DC. But, as you note, it’s irrelevant in California. The only question in our legislature is whether the Democrats will have a veto-proof/state-constitution-amending 2/3 majority or not. So being the (potential) nucleus of a new, electable (i.e. sane) GOP is more useful.
cleek,
Here’s hoping the storm leaves you mildly inconvenienced. BTW, do you have to make any special preparations for your cats?
–TP
cleek,
Here’s hoping the storm leaves you mildly inconvenienced. BTW, do you have to make any special preparations for your cats?
–TP
wj,
Some wag once said of infant baptism: “Believe in it? Why, I’ve seen it done!”
I feel the same way about “reasonable Republicans”. I don’t doubt their existence. Only their relevance IN THIS ELECTION.
–TP
wj,
Some wag once said of infant baptism: “Believe in it? Why, I’ve seen it done!”
I feel the same way about “reasonable Republicans”. I don’t doubt their existence. Only their relevance IN THIS ELECTION.
–TP
BTW, do you have to make any special preparations for your cats?
aside from stocking up on cat food…? i hope not!
AFAICT they’re not really afraid of storms. though this will be a bit more than they’re used to.
BTW, do you have to make any special preparations for your cats?
aside from stocking up on cat food…? i hope not!
AFAICT they’re not really afraid of storms. though this will be a bit more than they’re used to.
Their relevance in this election? I’d say that the reasonable Republicans among voters are probably going to be the margin of victory for a number of Congressional Democrats.
Embrace them — every little bit helps. Especially for Bresden, O’Rourke, and Espy.
Their relevance in this election? I’d say that the reasonable Republicans among voters are probably going to be the margin of victory for a number of Congressional Democrats.
Embrace them — every little bit helps. Especially for Bresden, O’Rourke, and Espy.
this special date, September 11th
It’s my son’s 16th birthday. He is a blessing.
this special date, September 11th
It’s my son’s 16th birthday. He is a blessing.
My status at the moment is: fine.
Nice sunny day in Durham. Sporadic shopping around town, busy stores but no panic. Most shoppers (like myself) seemed less in search of vital survival supplies than thinking “Well, the stores may not be open for a few days, so maybe I’ll pick up this item today while I’m out.”
My status over the next week is: problematic.
Florence itself will probably not do us much damage, assuming the winds are down to just 60 mph or so. Of course some of the surrounding trees (mostly loblolly pines, up to 100′ tall) could fall over on our house, but that’s always a possibility when your neighborhood is an ex-forest. Heavy rainfall, based on past experience, will lead to some seepage in the basement – we’ve been dealing with that off and on for years – and sodden lawns, overflowing pool, etc., but no permanent damage.
We are well stocked with bottled water and canned food. Power outages of a day or two are precedented; longer than that will be really annoying, but should be survivable.
Key variable for me: my surgery is set for Monday, but the time/schedule is not provided until after 4pm on Friday. But that’s with Duke Hospital actually functioning fully. If not?? My greatest dread is postponement, possibly for weeks or even more, since my specialist surgeon only cuts a couple of times a month.
Physically we’re doing fine (given our general decrepitude, etc.). Psychologically, I’m not sure how well we might handle a major postponement.
But as John Wayne used to say (imagine me doing a JW impression here – imagine it better than I actually do it): A Man’s Gotta Do What A Man’s Gotta Do.
(and thanks for asking, sapient)
My status at the moment is: fine.
Nice sunny day in Durham. Sporadic shopping around town, busy stores but no panic. Most shoppers (like myself) seemed less in search of vital survival supplies than thinking “Well, the stores may not be open for a few days, so maybe I’ll pick up this item today while I’m out.”
My status over the next week is: problematic.
Florence itself will probably not do us much damage, assuming the winds are down to just 60 mph or so. Of course some of the surrounding trees (mostly loblolly pines, up to 100′ tall) could fall over on our house, but that’s always a possibility when your neighborhood is an ex-forest. Heavy rainfall, based on past experience, will lead to some seepage in the basement – we’ve been dealing with that off and on for years – and sodden lawns, overflowing pool, etc., but no permanent damage.
We are well stocked with bottled water and canned food. Power outages of a day or two are precedented; longer than that will be really annoying, but should be survivable.
Key variable for me: my surgery is set for Monday, but the time/schedule is not provided until after 4pm on Friday. But that’s with Duke Hospital actually functioning fully. If not?? My greatest dread is postponement, possibly for weeks or even more, since my specialist surgeon only cuts a couple of times a month.
Physically we’re doing fine (given our general decrepitude, etc.). Psychologically, I’m not sure how well we might handle a major postponement.
But as John Wayne used to say (imagine me doing a JW impression here – imagine it better than I actually do it): A Man’s Gotta Do What A Man’s Gotta Do.
(and thanks for asking, sapient)
” despoiling the oceans seems irretrievable. Not to The Ocean Cleanup, a Dutch charity backed by crowdfunders, deep-pocketed endowments and tech tycoons like Peter Thiel. It has designed a system to trawl for polymers in the vast mid-ocean gyres where flotsam gathers. The 600-metre boom, with a three-metre dangling”
Are we finally mining the oceans for plastic? I have lived my whole life for this moment.
” despoiling the oceans seems irretrievable. Not to The Ocean Cleanup, a Dutch charity backed by crowdfunders, deep-pocketed endowments and tech tycoons like Peter Thiel. It has designed a system to trawl for polymers in the vast mid-ocean gyres where flotsam gathers. The 600-metre boom, with a three-metre dangling”
Are we finally mining the oceans for plastic? I have lived my whole life for this moment.
I just went up to find the link for the ocean cleanup and I see wj posted it here
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2018/09/hurricane-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-ot.html?cid=6a00d834515c2369e2022ad3aff91c200b#comment-6a00d834515c2369e2022ad3aff91c200b
wj, I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but wj, I really think that friends shouldn’t let friends read breitbart…
I just went up to find the link for the ocean cleanup and I see wj posted it here
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2018/09/hurricane-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-ot.html?cid=6a00d834515c2369e2022ad3aff91c200b#comment-6a00d834515c2369e2022ad3aff91c200b
wj, I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but wj, I really think that friends shouldn’t let friends read breitbart…
I always recommend Key Largo during this season. Good luck.
I always recommend Key Largo during this season. Good luck.
Are we finally mining the oceans for plastic? I have lived my whole life for this moment.
Hopefully this will not end like the German post-WW1 project to extract gold from ocean water in order to pay for the reparations.
A great step for chemical analytics but a dud economically.
Are we finally mining the oceans for plastic? I have lived my whole life for this moment.
Hopefully this will not end like the German post-WW1 project to extract gold from ocean water in order to pay for the reparations.
A great step for chemical analytics but a dud economically.
“Are we finally mining the oceans for plastic? I have lived my whole life for this moment.”
I live for spit takes and thanks for the one just now triggered by that inspired and perfectly timed bit of deadpan comedy.
Yes, we have survived to become the self-congratulatory ragpickers among our own despoilment.
I must have tossed out one of those plastic six pack pelican nooses some decades back and I for one would like it returned to me, maybe with six pelican necks neatly attached and resold at the seabird distributorship out on Highway 8.
I now see why Benjamin Braddock in “The Graduate” donned the diving equipment and concealed himself at the bottom of the pool. One word: Plastics. Hey, hey, hey Mrs. Robinson.
Pretty cool concept, however:
https://www.fastcompany.com/40419899/boy-genius-boyan-slats-giant-ocean-cleanup-machine-is-real
No doubt, the usual suspects will use this as an opportunity to strike recycling regs from the books of local governments and further defund the EPA, as we can now despoil with impunity, knowing the ocean boom is Roomba-Ing our detritus at its leisure.
I, for one, have lived my whole life for the moment when littering can once again be a guilt-free expression of freedom and self-fulfillment.
Like Rocko, I’m telling ya:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lfnko4zOLAQ
“Are we finally mining the oceans for plastic? I have lived my whole life for this moment.”
I live for spit takes and thanks for the one just now triggered by that inspired and perfectly timed bit of deadpan comedy.
Yes, we have survived to become the self-congratulatory ragpickers among our own despoilment.
I must have tossed out one of those plastic six pack pelican nooses some decades back and I for one would like it returned to me, maybe with six pelican necks neatly attached and resold at the seabird distributorship out on Highway 8.
I now see why Benjamin Braddock in “The Graduate” donned the diving equipment and concealed himself at the bottom of the pool. One word: Plastics. Hey, hey, hey Mrs. Robinson.
Pretty cool concept, however:
https://www.fastcompany.com/40419899/boy-genius-boyan-slats-giant-ocean-cleanup-machine-is-real
No doubt, the usual suspects will use this as an opportunity to strike recycling regs from the books of local governments and further defund the EPA, as we can now despoil with impunity, knowing the ocean boom is Roomba-Ing our detritus at its leisure.
I, for one, have lived my whole life for the moment when littering can once again be a guilt-free expression of freedom and self-fulfillment.
Like Rocko, I’m telling ya:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lfnko4zOLAQ
I hope all goes well, dr ngo.
I hope all goes well, dr ngo.
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/09/11/rachel-maddow-reports-trump-administration-took-10-million-fema-fund-immigrant-detention-and/221282
I would expect they are placing the detainees as well in low-lying coastal areas where the water table is about to rise.
They’ll be like the water department murder victim in “Chinatown” …. dead in a fresh water pool somewhat inland, but their lungs filled with salt water.
One hopes that will be Rush Limbaugh’s fate, but I’ll be happy to hold his fat head under until death do he good goddamned part:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/09/11/rush-limbaugh-hurricane-florence-forecast-and-destruction-potential-doom-and-gloom-all-heighten/221278
He won’t be able to run from the water or hide from the wind, or escape the volcanic fury of the lava dome about to explode and kill him.
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/09/11/rachel-maddow-reports-trump-administration-took-10-million-fema-fund-immigrant-detention-and/221282
I would expect they are placing the detainees as well in low-lying coastal areas where the water table is about to rise.
They’ll be like the water department murder victim in “Chinatown” …. dead in a fresh water pool somewhat inland, but their lungs filled with salt water.
One hopes that will be Rush Limbaugh’s fate, but I’ll be happy to hold his fat head under until death do he good goddamned part:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/09/11/rush-limbaugh-hurricane-florence-forecast-and-destruction-potential-doom-and-gloom-all-heighten/221278
He won’t be able to run from the water or hide from the wind, or escape the volcanic fury of the lava dome about to explode and kill him.
I hope all goes well, dr ngo.
Seconded.
I hope all goes well, dr ngo.
Seconded.
I hope all goes well, dr ngo.
Seconded.
Thirded even, dr ngo.
I hope all goes well, dr ngo.
Seconded.
Thirded even, dr ngo.
wj, I really think that friends shouldn’t let friends read breitbart…
lj, I take your point. It wasn’t that I thought anyone should read it. But that, since it was Breitbart actually supporting doing something positive for the environment, I should provide evidence that could be checked by skeptics. (I only found it myself because googling the topic turned up the link, and I was startled.)
wj, I really think that friends shouldn’t let friends read breitbart…
lj, I take your point. It wasn’t that I thought anyone should read it. But that, since it was Breitbart actually supporting doing something positive for the environment, I should provide evidence that could be checked by skeptics. (I only found it myself because googling the topic turned up the link, and I was startled.)
I would expect they are placing the detainees as well in low-lying coastal areas where the water table is about to rise.
Count, you’re assuming a level of competence that has been nowhere in evidence. They might like the idea (if someone else suggested it). But implement it? Probably only get it done a couple months after the storm has past. If that fast — see the stuff still not yet done in Puerto Rico
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nidhiprakash/puerto-rico-hurricane-funeral-assistance-fema
I would expect they are placing the detainees as well in low-lying coastal areas where the water table is about to rise.
Count, you’re assuming a level of competence that has been nowhere in evidence. They might like the idea (if someone else suggested it). But implement it? Probably only get it done a couple months after the storm has past. If that fast — see the stuff still not yet done in Puerto Rico
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nidhiprakash/puerto-rico-hurricane-funeral-assistance-fema
Once you get serious about corruption, even the sky isn’t the limit. This from Trump’s NASA administrator
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/405875-nasa-looking-into-selling-naming-rights-for-rockets-to-brands
Once you get serious about corruption, even the sky isn’t the limit. This from Trump’s NASA administrator
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/405875-nasa-looking-into-selling-naming-rights-for-rockets-to-brands
Hope all are doing well that live in Florence’s path.
lj: Ok, teach, I read the homework. While the visit to post-reconstruction SCOTUS opinions is always a helpful reminder, especially if it involves reading Harlan dissents (as hard as those are to read in one way, they show how much further along we would have been so much sooner had Harlan been in the majority), I am not so sure it was in this case.
The article is almost pure political screed and hardly helpful. The conservatives are “indifferent” to discrimination in practice? All three branches of the federal government are committed to white supremacy, putting down women, disenfranchising and impoverishing African Americans? Seriously? Paving the way for “white man’s government” by another name?
This is inflammatory and unnecessary rhetoric. It a (barely) more intellectual equivalent of calling every conservative a Nazi. If you disagree with a leftist policy, you are a bigot.
And the direct comparison (not toned down in the least) of the conservatives on the court with those of the 19th century rests on the thin reed of Trump v. Hawaii. Really? We are going to pick a case that doesn’t involve U.S. citizens and is in the area of foreign affairs? That simply makes no sense.
Perhaps I missed your point. Perhaps your point was this is the sort of thing that unnecessarily inflames the anger on the left to a conservative appointment to the court. Somehow I doubt that.
Hope all are doing well that live in Florence’s path.
lj: Ok, teach, I read the homework. While the visit to post-reconstruction SCOTUS opinions is always a helpful reminder, especially if it involves reading Harlan dissents (as hard as those are to read in one way, they show how much further along we would have been so much sooner had Harlan been in the majority), I am not so sure it was in this case.
The article is almost pure political screed and hardly helpful. The conservatives are “indifferent” to discrimination in practice? All three branches of the federal government are committed to white supremacy, putting down women, disenfranchising and impoverishing African Americans? Seriously? Paving the way for “white man’s government” by another name?
This is inflammatory and unnecessary rhetoric. It a (barely) more intellectual equivalent of calling every conservative a Nazi. If you disagree with a leftist policy, you are a bigot.
And the direct comparison (not toned down in the least) of the conservatives on the court with those of the 19th century rests on the thin reed of Trump v. Hawaii. Really? We are going to pick a case that doesn’t involve U.S. citizens and is in the area of foreign affairs? That simply makes no sense.
Perhaps I missed your point. Perhaps your point was this is the sort of thing that unnecessarily inflames the anger on the left to a conservative appointment to the court. Somehow I doubt that.
It’s my son’s 16th birthday. He is a blessing
Saw this too late to wish your son a happy birthday. Neither he nor you are sociopaths for finding September 11th a special day!
It’s my son’s 16th birthday. He is a blessing
Saw this too late to wish your son a happy birthday. Neither he nor you are sociopaths for finding September 11th a special day!
Like the Supreme Court of that era, the conservatives on the Court today are opposed to discrimination in principle, and indifferent to it in practice. Chief Justice John Roberts’s June 2018 ruling to uphold President Donald Trump’s travel ban targeting a list of majority-Muslim countries, despite the voluminous evidence that it had been conceived in animus, showed that the muddled doctrines of the post-Reconstruction period retain a stubborn appeal.
bc, instead of ranting aimlessly, perhaps you could address the example provided.
Like the Supreme Court of that era, the conservatives on the Court today are opposed to discrimination in principle, and indifferent to it in practice. Chief Justice John Roberts’s June 2018 ruling to uphold President Donald Trump’s travel ban targeting a list of majority-Muslim countries, despite the voluminous evidence that it had been conceived in animus, showed that the muddled doctrines of the post-Reconstruction period retain a stubborn appeal.
bc, instead of ranting aimlessly, perhaps you could address the example provided.
The Carolinas and Virginia have invoked their anti-price gouging laws. So don’t look for many people to be in a big hurry to bring in needed supplies and services in the aftermath of the storm.
The Carolinas and Virginia have invoked their anti-price gouging laws. So don’t look for many people to be in a big hurry to bring in needed supplies and services in the aftermath of the storm.
The Carolinas and Virginia have invoked their anti-price gouging laws. So don’t look for many people to be in a big hurry to bring in needed supplies and services in the aftermath of the storm.
CharlesWT, I don’t want to seem to be (or even to really be) picking on you after our Trump spat, but do you think that the opportunity to make outsize profits is the only reason people rush to bring needed supplies and services in the aftermath of a big storm? How outsize do profits have to be to fall within the definition of price-gouging?
The Carolinas and Virginia have invoked their anti-price gouging laws. So don’t look for many people to be in a big hurry to bring in needed supplies and services in the aftermath of the storm.
CharlesWT, I don’t want to seem to be (or even to really be) picking on you after our Trump spat, but do you think that the opportunity to make outsize profits is the only reason people rush to bring needed supplies and services in the aftermath of a big storm? How outsize do profits have to be to fall within the definition of price-gouging?
The key is to price gouge on a sunny, mild summer day so no one notices the gouging during the intemperate interludes.
I wonder if NASA gives naming rights to, to say, Dunkin Donuts on a craft searching for interstellar life if said life will translate Donuts as “come and eat us”.
The key is to price gouge on a sunny, mild summer day so no one notices the gouging during the intemperate interludes.
I wonder if NASA gives naming rights to, to say, Dunkin Donuts on a craft searching for interstellar life if said life will translate Donuts as “come and eat us”.
For those looking for some news to brighten their day, 538’s odds of Democrats taking the House just passed 80% for the first time.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-midterm-election-forecast/house/
Combine that with McConnell deciding to keep the Senate in session for most of October — in order to get as many judges approved as possible before he loses his majority?
On which front, I’m thinking we end up with Heitkamp squeezing out another few hundred vote victory in North Dakota, and the Democrats winning both Tennessee and Texas. The question in my mind is, do they somehow manage Mississippi as well? But then, everybody knows us Republicans are detached from reality… 😉
For those looking for some news to brighten their day, 538’s odds of Democrats taking the House just passed 80% for the first time.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-midterm-election-forecast/house/
Combine that with McConnell deciding to keep the Senate in session for most of October — in order to get as many judges approved as possible before he loses his majority?
On which front, I’m thinking we end up with Heitkamp squeezing out another few hundred vote victory in North Dakota, and the Democrats winning both Tennessee and Texas. The question in my mind is, do they somehow manage Mississippi as well? But then, everybody knows us Republicans are detached from reality… 😉
Actually, bc should have posted on the other thread, and I should have answered him there. Also, I think bc should have addressed his comment to Ugh. But maybe it’s me who’s confused.
Actually, bc should have posted on the other thread, and I should have answered him there. Also, I think bc should have addressed his comment to Ugh. But maybe it’s me who’s confused.
How outsize do profits have to be to fall within the definition of price-gouging?
Depending on state law, even minimal increases in prices could be declared price-gouging.
Of course, government and relief organizations will be there in the aftermath. But they’re sometimes too little, too late. And there will be locals who will risk their assets and themselves to help. But, in the absence of price-gouging laws, price signals tell everyone what is needed and how badly. And what should be conserved and what can be used more freely.
How outsize do profits have to be to fall within the definition of price-gouging?
Depending on state law, even minimal increases in prices could be declared price-gouging.
Of course, government and relief organizations will be there in the aftermath. But they’re sometimes too little, too late. And there will be locals who will risk their assets and themselves to help. But, in the absence of price-gouging laws, price signals tell everyone what is needed and how badly. And what should be conserved and what can be used more freely.
But, in the absence of price-gouging laws, price signals tell everyone what is needed and how badly. And what should be conserved and what can be used more freely.
Do you have an example of a disaster where the absence of price-gouging laws has saved lives?
But, in the absence of price-gouging laws, price signals tell everyone what is needed and how badly. And what should be conserved and what can be used more freely.
Do you have an example of a disaster where the absence of price-gouging laws has saved lives?
But maybe it’s me who’s confused
Or me? Isn’t this the post where lj said we all had to read Adam Serwer? I’ll check out the other posts.
And I was ranting?
But maybe it’s me who’s confused
Or me? Isn’t this the post where lj said we all had to read Adam Serwer? I’ll check out the other posts.
And I was ranting?
No, I was confused because the new Kavanaugh thread was posted, but the Serwer piece was here.
Yes, I think you were ranting, bc, because instead of addressing the issue, you complained about the fact that it was brought up in a certain way. What about the issue? The fact that Kavanaugh voted to uphold the Muslim ban, despite its obvious origin. Care to comment?
No, I was confused because the new Kavanaugh thread was posted, but the Serwer piece was here.
Yes, I think you were ranting, bc, because instead of addressing the issue, you complained about the fact that it was brought up in a certain way. What about the issue? The fact that Kavanaugh voted to uphold the Muslim ban, despite its obvious origin. Care to comment?
Rather, the Serwer piece discusses the Roberts court, not Kavanaugh. Still, it would be interesting for you to comment on the ruling rather than feign hurt feelings because someone mentioned it.
Rather, the Serwer piece discusses the Roberts court, not Kavanaugh. Still, it would be interesting for you to comment on the ruling rather than feign hurt feelings because someone mentioned it.
So, to conclude: I apologize for having been confused. You commented in the correct thread, and addressed the correct person.
However, you didn’t address the point.
So, to conclude: I apologize for having been confused. You commented in the correct thread, and addressed the correct person.
However, you didn’t address the point.
I hope all goes well, dr ngo.
Seconded.
Thirded even, dr ngo.
And fourthed! (May the fourth be with you.)
I hope all goes well, dr ngo.
Seconded.
Thirded even, dr ngo.
And fourthed! (May the fourth be with you.)
bc, FWIW it wasn’t lj who said we all had to read Serwer, it was Ugh.
bc, FWIW it wasn’t lj who said we all had to read Serwer, it was Ugh.
Do you have an example of a disaster where the absence of price-gouging laws has saved lives?
I’m finding it difficult to find any explicit examples.
Here’s an article, which I disagree with of course, that counters my arguments.
“The only force that can address the market is government, by making the cost of crucial commodities irrelevant by getting them into the market at its own cost. We’re talking about a case where nature herself has thrown the economics textbooks into the drink. It behooves academic economists like Worstall, Perry and Mankiw to keep something in mind, always: We’re not talking about tickets to a show.”
Memo to economists defending price gouging in a disaster: It’s still wrong, morally and economically
Do you have an example of a disaster where the absence of price-gouging laws has saved lives?
I’m finding it difficult to find any explicit examples.
Here’s an article, which I disagree with of course, that counters my arguments.
“The only force that can address the market is government, by making the cost of crucial commodities irrelevant by getting them into the market at its own cost. We’re talking about a case where nature herself has thrown the economics textbooks into the drink. It behooves academic economists like Worstall, Perry and Mankiw to keep something in mind, always: We’re not talking about tickets to a show.”
Memo to economists defending price gouging in a disaster: It’s still wrong, morally and economically
“The “Waffle House Index” has become a key part of storm preparedness: When a Waffle House closes in the face of an impending storm, that’s when you really need to be worried.”
FEMA May Not be Prepared for Hurricane Florence, but Waffle House Is: The “Waffle House Index” shows some differences between the private and public sector when it comes to emergency preparedness.
“The “Waffle House Index” has become a key part of storm preparedness: When a Waffle House closes in the face of an impending storm, that’s when you really need to be worried.”
FEMA May Not be Prepared for Hurricane Florence, but Waffle House Is: The “Waffle House Index” shows some differences between the private and public sector when it comes to emergency preparedness.
Presumably price gouging reduces hoarding, and therefore provides more people with the minimum they need to overcome the event. For example, getting 5 gallons of gas in my car rather than filling it up, so I had enough to get out of the way, and then buy more gas in a place where it is not a critical commodity. Having no gas at normal price is worse than having some gas at 4X price. The same mom with 3 kids who can’t afford $7 a bottle water also can’t get any water if it was sold to someone who bought more than he needed because it was not priced where he did not want to buy extra.
In some of the rural areas near me, gas is a dollar more a gallon than in the suburban areas (we have no urban areas…). I don’t think of that as price gouging, but someone who is not making money on volume sales. But the effect is the same, I am happy to pay the extra so there is gas there where I need it. I typically don’t fill up, but get enough to go somewhere cheaper. (Even at a dollar extra, it is cheaper than CA.)
I doubt gouging is helpful after the event and roads are open. Before the roads are open for resupply, ensuring people are not hoarding and fuel/water is available for critical needs seems prudent.
I suppose they could ration instead, or have the government somehow overcome the logistical problems of the disaster as the article seems to suggest is simple or at least potentially timely. Neither seem like something that can be instituted quickly enough to make commodities more available.
Didn’t we do this in the 70s when we had a gas crisis, and there was a cap on the price of gas (at a dollar, I think). Odd/Even days, long gas lines, etc.
Presumably price gouging reduces hoarding, and therefore provides more people with the minimum they need to overcome the event. For example, getting 5 gallons of gas in my car rather than filling it up, so I had enough to get out of the way, and then buy more gas in a place where it is not a critical commodity. Having no gas at normal price is worse than having some gas at 4X price. The same mom with 3 kids who can’t afford $7 a bottle water also can’t get any water if it was sold to someone who bought more than he needed because it was not priced where he did not want to buy extra.
In some of the rural areas near me, gas is a dollar more a gallon than in the suburban areas (we have no urban areas…). I don’t think of that as price gouging, but someone who is not making money on volume sales. But the effect is the same, I am happy to pay the extra so there is gas there where I need it. I typically don’t fill up, but get enough to go somewhere cheaper. (Even at a dollar extra, it is cheaper than CA.)
I doubt gouging is helpful after the event and roads are open. Before the roads are open for resupply, ensuring people are not hoarding and fuel/water is available for critical needs seems prudent.
I suppose they could ration instead, or have the government somehow overcome the logistical problems of the disaster as the article seems to suggest is simple or at least potentially timely. Neither seem like something that can be instituted quickly enough to make commodities more available.
Didn’t we do this in the 70s when we had a gas crisis, and there was a cap on the price of gas (at a dollar, I think). Odd/Even days, long gas lines, etc.
GftNC, I’m so confused. I should just let the topic go, except for the fact that bc hasn’t bothered to get to the point. I guess I wouldn’t blame bc if the point has been lost.
CharlesWT, thanks for pointing to an article contrary to your argument. What a good faith opponent!
GftNC, I’m so confused. I should just let the topic go, except for the fact that bc hasn’t bothered to get to the point. I guess I wouldn’t blame bc if the point has been lost.
CharlesWT, thanks for pointing to an article contrary to your argument. What a good faith opponent!
Waffles come in handy for boarding up windows against an impending storm when plywood eight by fours are in short supply and priced out of reach.
Waffles come in handy for boarding up windows against an impending storm when plywood eight by fours are in short supply and priced out of reach.
“My kingdom for a horse” was both price gouging and the extraction of a pound of horseflesh.
“My kingdom for a horse” was both price gouging and the extraction of a pound of horseflesh.
Didn’t we do this in the 70s when we had a gas crisis, and there was a cap on the price of gas (at a dollar, I think). Odd/Even days, long gas lines, etc.
Yes, but a long-term, national price-cap is a bit different. It’s highly theoretical to suggest that the same outcome should be expected on a short-term, regionalized basis, particularly when there’s a warning coming more days before the event than the number of days the acute need will last.
Didn’t we do this in the 70s when we had a gas crisis, and there was a cap on the price of gas (at a dollar, I think). Odd/Even days, long gas lines, etc.
Yes, but a long-term, national price-cap is a bit different. It’s highly theoretical to suggest that the same outcome should be expected on a short-term, regionalized basis, particularly when there’s a warning coming more days before the event than the number of days the acute need will last.
don’t look for many people to be in a big hurry to bring in needed supplies and services in the aftermath of the storm.
There will probably be quite a lot of people bringing supplies and services after the storm.
Some folks don’t need a price signal to tell them what to do.
Every human relationship does not have to manifest itself in the form of a market transaction.
don’t look for many people to be in a big hurry to bring in needed supplies and services in the aftermath of the storm.
There will probably be quite a lot of people bringing supplies and services after the storm.
Some folks don’t need a price signal to tell them what to do.
Every human relationship does not have to manifest itself in the form of a market transaction.
If conservative and libertarian economists averaged out their desire for both charity replacing government and price-gouging replacing government, prices might stay level thru thick and thin.
If conservative and libertarian economists averaged out their desire for both charity replacing government and price-gouging replacing government, prices might stay level thru thick and thin.
Even greedy capitalists know that some good PR (or the avoidance of very bad PR) can outweigh a short-term profit. That’s without even considering that they might actually give a sh*t about other human beings.
Even greedy capitalists know that some good PR (or the avoidance of very bad PR) can outweigh a short-term profit. That’s without even considering that they might actually give a sh*t about other human beings.
A steady flow of war and natural catastrophes keeps the velocity of money humming nicely.
Those who capitalize both have an obvious skip in their step as the tides rise.
A steady flow of war and natural catastrophes keeps the velocity of money humming nicely.
Those who capitalize both have an obvious skip in their step as the tides rise.
A counter to the article against price-gouging I linked to.
“Even those sharply critical of price gouging concede the correctness of such observations. The Los Angeles Times‘ Michael Hiltzik, for instance, acknowledges that the “textbook economics” of price-gouging are “irreproachable.” But he and others still find it objectionable.
They find it objectionable, first, because they consider price spikes morally wrong. Behind the objection lies an unspoken assumption: that there must be some morally correct price for a consumer good, independent of the wishes of the person selling it. Yet a merchant has no moral obligation to sell his goods in the first place. A grocer who closes his store so he can evacuate the city is not breaking any cosmic moral laws, for instance. And if a merchant has no moral duty to sell something at all, then it makes little sense to say he has a duty to sell it at a certain price.”
Laws Against ‘Gouging’ Are Simplistic and Wrong: So-called price gouging helps send important signals to buyers and sellers.
A counter to the article against price-gouging I linked to.
“Even those sharply critical of price gouging concede the correctness of such observations. The Los Angeles Times‘ Michael Hiltzik, for instance, acknowledges that the “textbook economics” of price-gouging are “irreproachable.” But he and others still find it objectionable.
They find it objectionable, first, because they consider price spikes morally wrong. Behind the objection lies an unspoken assumption: that there must be some morally correct price for a consumer good, independent of the wishes of the person selling it. Yet a merchant has no moral obligation to sell his goods in the first place. A grocer who closes his store so he can evacuate the city is not breaking any cosmic moral laws, for instance. And if a merchant has no moral duty to sell something at all, then it makes little sense to say he has a duty to sell it at a certain price.”
Laws Against ‘Gouging’ Are Simplistic and Wrong: So-called price gouging helps send important signals to buyers and sellers.
I have worked on the edges of disaster relief for a while, primarily supporting with military units, but also generally state planning, and some with FEMA directly.
Some states deliberately do not have a disaster fund prepared so FEMA has to carry the load. Talking to colleagues I would say that FEMA is a moral hazard, giving State Politicians another place to cut funding for tax cuts.
Other states use disasters as a way to fund other projects that they wanted to do. The national guard in some states is fairly notorious for this.
Some states won’t do anything until the feds agree to pick up the price.
Interestingly, NJ and Governor Christie received high marks from the FEMA team I worked with for doing what needed to be done regardless of whether NJ or the Feds paid for it during that hurricane.
Basically, during a disaster FEMA works for the State the disaster is in: Even the federal military units report to a dual hatted national guard general who is appointed by the governor. It was not until about 2009 that Army Reserve units were even allowed to support (generally…there were some exceptions). FEMA’s role is to coordinate federal resources to support the State, but not to run the show.
Which is a long way of saying that the focus should be on the state preparation for disasters, particularly ones where the likelihood is high (tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, depending on location).
This is a 2007 report on State disaster funding. Hopefully things are better now.
The CBO report noted that few states have dedicated accounts or trust funds for emergencies that bypass the legislative appropriation process, and even fewer fund these accounts in advance at a level sufficient to cover large-scale emergencies (see copy of report attached).
A 2003 NEMA survey found that most states (31) appropriate funds for specific incidents after a major disaster occurs. Twenty-two states, according to the report, have separate disaster funds to which money is appropriated as needed (usually annually) to maintain adequate balances. The report found only Arkansas and Florida had established disaster trust funds with revenue from specified sources. Florida, for example, imposes a surcharge on insurance policies (see Table 1 attached).
https://www.cga.ct.gov/2007/rpt/2007-R-0643.htm
North Carolina has about $2 billion in its rainy day fund which I think is separate from disaster relief (intended for economic turndowns instead), which is enough to fund government for 30 days. But they are talking about using it for this hurricane.
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article218224035.html
I have worked on the edges of disaster relief for a while, primarily supporting with military units, but also generally state planning, and some with FEMA directly.
Some states deliberately do not have a disaster fund prepared so FEMA has to carry the load. Talking to colleagues I would say that FEMA is a moral hazard, giving State Politicians another place to cut funding for tax cuts.
Other states use disasters as a way to fund other projects that they wanted to do. The national guard in some states is fairly notorious for this.
Some states won’t do anything until the feds agree to pick up the price.
Interestingly, NJ and Governor Christie received high marks from the FEMA team I worked with for doing what needed to be done regardless of whether NJ or the Feds paid for it during that hurricane.
Basically, during a disaster FEMA works for the State the disaster is in: Even the federal military units report to a dual hatted national guard general who is appointed by the governor. It was not until about 2009 that Army Reserve units were even allowed to support (generally…there were some exceptions). FEMA’s role is to coordinate federal resources to support the State, but not to run the show.
Which is a long way of saying that the focus should be on the state preparation for disasters, particularly ones where the likelihood is high (tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, depending on location).
This is a 2007 report on State disaster funding. Hopefully things are better now.
The CBO report noted that few states have dedicated accounts or trust funds for emergencies that bypass the legislative appropriation process, and even fewer fund these accounts in advance at a level sufficient to cover large-scale emergencies (see copy of report attached).
A 2003 NEMA survey found that most states (31) appropriate funds for specific incidents after a major disaster occurs. Twenty-two states, according to the report, have separate disaster funds to which money is appropriated as needed (usually annually) to maintain adequate balances. The report found only Arkansas and Florida had established disaster trust funds with revenue from specified sources. Florida, for example, imposes a surcharge on insurance policies (see Table 1 attached).
https://www.cga.ct.gov/2007/rpt/2007-R-0643.htm
North Carolina has about $2 billion in its rainy day fund which I think is separate from disaster relief (intended for economic turndowns instead), which is enough to fund government for 30 days. But they are talking about using it for this hurricane.
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article218224035.html
FEMA has met with a lot of criticism over the years. Much of it justified. But any large department of a huge central government, no matter how well designed and staffed, is likely to be flatfooted and clumsy when it tries to deal with one of, chaotic situations like natural disasters.
FEMA has met with a lot of criticism over the years. Much of it justified. But any large department of a huge central government, no matter how well designed and staffed, is likely to be flatfooted and clumsy when it tries to deal with one of, chaotic situations like natural disasters.
a merchant is free to take his business to Somalia, if he doesn’t like the opportunities and obligations provided by the USA.
the rest of us are going to keep using the entity by which we’ve organized ourselves to enact the laws and rules we want.
kthxbye.
a merchant is free to take his business to Somalia, if he doesn’t like the opportunities and obligations provided by the USA.
the rest of us are going to keep using the entity by which we’ve organized ourselves to enact the laws and rules we want.
kthxbye.
the “textbook economics” of price-gouging are “irreproachable.”
textbook economics will be the death of the republic yet.
to me, gouging is a behavior that is so far outside the bounds of civic decency that it should be discussed in the same terms that we discuss extortion. i.e., as a crime.
i’ll keep saying the same thing over and over – we don’t share a common set of values. i have zero interest in living by the principles you espouse here. you think they equal freedom, i think they equal slavery.
the “textbook economics” of price-gouging are “irreproachable.”
textbook economics will be the death of the republic yet.
to me, gouging is a behavior that is so far outside the bounds of civic decency that it should be discussed in the same terms that we discuss extortion. i.e., as a crime.
i’ll keep saying the same thing over and over – we don’t share a common set of values. i have zero interest in living by the principles you espouse here. you think they equal freedom, i think they equal slavery.
Behind the objection lies an unspoken assumption: that there must be some morally correct price for a consumer good, independent of the wishes of the person selling it.
the assumption is correct.
if, in a time of crisis a merchant who inflates the price of items that are possibly the difference between life and death life in order to maximize his own profit is morally wrong.
it’s easy to tell this by imagining the reaction the merchant will receive when the locals return and start talking about what a shitty person Mr Shopkeep must be to have so raised the price of vital supplies. that disgust and anger is moral judgement.
Behind the objection lies an unspoken assumption: that there must be some morally correct price for a consumer good, independent of the wishes of the person selling it.
the assumption is correct.
if, in a time of crisis a merchant who inflates the price of items that are possibly the difference between life and death life in order to maximize his own profit is morally wrong.
it’s easy to tell this by imagining the reaction the merchant will receive when the locals return and start talking about what a shitty person Mr Shopkeep must be to have so raised the price of vital supplies. that disgust and anger is moral judgement.
The hurricane seems to be tapering off in strength. Hopefully a lot more before landfall. If not, you can bet there’ll be people in middle-class neighborhoods complaining that they can’t get generators no matter how much they’re willing to pay for them.
The hurricane seems to be tapering off in strength. Hopefully a lot more before landfall. If not, you can bet there’ll be people in middle-class neighborhoods complaining that they can’t get generators no matter how much they’re willing to pay for them.
“So-called price gouging sends important signals to buyers and sellers.”
I can think of a few.
We speak of America’s can do attitude.
But what about America’s can’t do, we don’t wanna do, who are you to tell me to do, you do it and leave me alone, why bother doing it, we ain’t paying for doing it, you do that and I’m liable to shoot your attitudes?
HANH?
“So-called price gouging sends important signals to buyers and sellers.”
I can think of a few.
We speak of America’s can do attitude.
But what about America’s can’t do, we don’t wanna do, who are you to tell me to do, you do it and leave me alone, why bother doing it, we ain’t paying for doing it, you do that and I’m liable to shoot your attitudes?
HANH?
If not, you can bet there’ll be people in middle-class neighborhoods complaining that they can’t get generators no matter how much they’re willing to pay for them.
I realize that, living on the far side of the continent, I have no appreciation for the realities of living with hurricanes. But it isn’t entirely obvious why someone, living where hurricanes happen so often, wouldn’t deal with the need for a generator during the off season, when demand would presumably be lower, prices lower, and time pressure lower.
If not, you can bet there’ll be people in middle-class neighborhoods complaining that they can’t get generators no matter how much they’re willing to pay for them.
I realize that, living on the far side of the continent, I have no appreciation for the realities of living with hurricanes. But it isn’t entirely obvious why someone, living where hurricanes happen so often, wouldn’t deal with the need for a generator during the off season, when demand would presumably be lower, prices lower, and time pressure lower.
if, in a time of crisis a merchant who inflates the price of items that are possibly the difference between life and death life in order to maximize his own profit is morally wrong.
Is he morally wrong if he doesn’t sell at all?
Many local merchants are likely to keep their prices down just for the goodwill it will buy them. Especially big box stores that can more easily afford to do so. And they’ll look even better by comparison if “price-gougers” are outside selling at much higher prices.
if, in a time of crisis a merchant who inflates the price of items that are possibly the difference between life and death life in order to maximize his own profit is morally wrong.
Is he morally wrong if he doesn’t sell at all?
Many local merchants are likely to keep their prices down just for the goodwill it will buy them. Especially big box stores that can more easily afford to do so. And they’ll look even better by comparison if “price-gougers” are outside selling at much higher prices.
textbook economics will be the death of the republic yet.
Depends on who wrote the textbook.
But it isn’t entirely obvious why someone, living where hurricanes happen so often, wouldn’t deal with the need for a generator during the off season, when demand would presumably be lower, prices lower, and time pressure lower.
Hurricanes didn’t use to happen so often. Perhaps people living in wildfire country should invest in better fire extinguishers, or something?
textbook economics will be the death of the republic yet.
Depends on who wrote the textbook.
But it isn’t entirely obvious why someone, living where hurricanes happen so often, wouldn’t deal with the need for a generator during the off season, when demand would presumably be lower, prices lower, and time pressure lower.
Hurricanes didn’t use to happen so often. Perhaps people living in wildfire country should invest in better fire extinguishers, or something?
Sorry, lost a lot of comments on the page jump. bc, it was Ugh that posted the Serwer piece, not me. I have to abjectly confess, I am both a teacher and an academic, so my pleasure at you reading the piece is counterbalanced by my distress at you not getting the attribution correct.
I return you to your discussion of the morality of price-gouging with the observation that the fact that we can have defenses of price-gouging is probably the reason the US can’t have a nice health care system.
Sorry, lost a lot of comments on the page jump. bc, it was Ugh that posted the Serwer piece, not me. I have to abjectly confess, I am both a teacher and an academic, so my pleasure at you reading the piece is counterbalanced by my distress at you not getting the attribution correct.
I return you to your discussion of the morality of price-gouging with the observation that the fact that we can have defenses of price-gouging is probably the reason the US can’t have a nice health care system.
Can we define terms please, because I find I am unable to believe that CharlesWT means what he appears to mean.
Charles, if a merchant normally sells a 500 gallon plastic tank of water for X, plus Y for shipping anywhere in the continental US, and has a good business selling M tanks a year, are you truly saying that in the wake of a natural disaster in the continental US which disrupts a town’s water supply, it is fine for that merchant (instead of just charging whatever extra transport charges are necessary in the wake of the disaster) to charge 2X or 3X per tank, plus a multiple of transport costs, to increase his profits even more than he would by selling more than M tanks? To profit on the misfortunes of desperate people?
Can we define terms please, because I find I am unable to believe that CharlesWT means what he appears to mean.
Charles, if a merchant normally sells a 500 gallon plastic tank of water for X, plus Y for shipping anywhere in the continental US, and has a good business selling M tanks a year, are you truly saying that in the wake of a natural disaster in the continental US which disrupts a town’s water supply, it is fine for that merchant (instead of just charging whatever extra transport charges are necessary in the wake of the disaster) to charge 2X or 3X per tank, plus a multiple of transport costs, to increase his profits even more than he would by selling more than M tanks? To profit on the misfortunes of desperate people?
It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
Depending on state laws, the merchant may not be able to raise prices even a little bit to cover the increased cost.
Chain stores like WalMart are more likely to give the water away just for the goodwill.
Local merchants may also be members of the desperate people faced with damage and destruction to their homes and businesses. Raising prices may be the only way they can keep their businesses open to people who need their products and services.
Also, allowing higher prices encourages people outside the disaster area to take the financial and personal risk to bring in needed goods and services.
It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
Depending on state laws, the merchant may not be able to raise prices even a little bit to cover the increased cost.
Chain stores like WalMart are more likely to give the water away just for the goodwill.
Local merchants may also be members of the desperate people faced with damage and destruction to their homes and businesses. Raising prices may be the only way they can keep their businesses open to people who need their products and services.
Also, allowing higher prices encourages people outside the disaster area to take the financial and personal risk to bring in needed goods and services.
I think part of it is ‘just in time’ manufacturing and logistics. The manufacturer who made ‘M’ water tanks expected to sell that many. Now there is greater demand, and no one is sitting on a stockpile of them.
When I built my house last year 3000 miles away from any hurricanes, my framing budget was completely shot, because the damage from the hurricanes meant there was not enough lumber to meet the demands at that time. Anybody who wanted to wait 6 months for stockage to return could save money, but if you wanted to build now, you had competition for a finite resource.
I think it there is concern about price gouging, the government should step in and stockpile those things it is concerned about (like we do with oil) so when there is a shock, they can release some.
I think part of it is ‘just in time’ manufacturing and logistics. The manufacturer who made ‘M’ water tanks expected to sell that many. Now there is greater demand, and no one is sitting on a stockpile of them.
When I built my house last year 3000 miles away from any hurricanes, my framing budget was completely shot, because the damage from the hurricanes meant there was not enough lumber to meet the demands at that time. Anybody who wanted to wait 6 months for stockage to return could save money, but if you wanted to build now, you had competition for a finite resource.
I think it there is concern about price gouging, the government should step in and stockpile those things it is concerned about (like we do with oil) so when there is a shock, they can release some.
You can bet the chain stores in the area have spent the last few days stockpiling things that they know from past experience will be in greater demand. Like beer and Pop-Tarts®.
You can bet the chain stores in the area have spent the last few days stockpiling things that they know from past experience will be in greater demand. Like beer and Pop-Tarts®.
I think it there is concern about price gouging, the government should step in and stockpile those things it is concerned about (like we do with oil) so when there is a shock, they can release some.
This. CharlesWT thinks that the market forces will make things right, but human beings don’t always go along with that. People raise prices of water, and people dying of thirst kill the proprietor and drink the water. Then government has to step in after the fact, rather than making it all good for everyone before that happens.
It’a a matter of timing, CharlesWT, but government is always going to have to solve it, one way or the other.
I think it there is concern about price gouging, the government should step in and stockpile those things it is concerned about (like we do with oil) so when there is a shock, they can release some.
This. CharlesWT thinks that the market forces will make things right, but human beings don’t always go along with that. People raise prices of water, and people dying of thirst kill the proprietor and drink the water. Then government has to step in after the fact, rather than making it all good for everyone before that happens.
It’a a matter of timing, CharlesWT, but government is always going to have to solve it, one way or the other.
CharlesWT,
That is ‘just in time.’ Just not sufficient, since if they had enough, price rationing wouldn’t happen.
CharlesWT,
That is ‘just in time.’ Just not sufficient, since if they had enough, price rationing wouldn’t happen.
Looks like the outer reaches of Florence is making landfall.
Here’s a full screen weather map. I expect the same or similar can be found at other links.
Click the expand button. Click on “LAYERS” at the lower right. Click on “Radar/Satellite and “Active Tropical Track.” Click on the map and drag to position.
Looks like the outer reaches of Florence is making landfall.
Here’s a full screen weather map. I expect the same or similar can be found at other links.
Click the expand button. Click on “LAYERS” at the lower right. Click on “Radar/Satellite and “Active Tropical Track.” Click on the map and drag to position.
“It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Shkreli
Well, as long as it’s just OK and not stupendous, miraculous, and/or effing fantastic and the someone we are selling something to is not, say, our child, then I guess OK is good enough for private sector work.
Cigarettes at Buchanwald were dear.
Hurray for circumstance and the pricing thereof.
Fuck all.
“It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Shkreli
Well, as long as it’s just OK and not stupendous, miraculous, and/or effing fantastic and the someone we are selling something to is not, say, our child, then I guess OK is good enough for private sector work.
Cigarettes at Buchanwald were dear.
Hurray for circumstance and the pricing thereof.
Fuck all.
Shoplifting, theft, and looting can also be textbook examples of rational economic behavior, but the price gougers are permitted to fucking shoot the perpetrators.
Shoplifting, theft, and looting can also be textbook examples of rational economic behavior, but the price gougers are permitted to fucking shoot the perpetrators.
The discussion gouging didn’t begin with things like a temporary increase in price of a finite resource like lumber, across a nation or international market, because of an increase in demand due to a storm.
Or, with the onset of chagrin among the grasshoppers among us who failed to procure a generator before the local big box ran out.
It began with this:
The Carolinas and Virginia have invoked their anti-price gouging laws. So don’t look for many people to be in a big hurry to bring in needed supplies and services in the aftermath of the storm
Which is simply false.
People don’t need a “price signal” to bring needed supplies and services in the aftermath of a storm. They will bring them because they aren’t jerks and they want to help people who were affected by the storm. Some of them will bring them because they are responsible, professionally and as public servants, for insuring that the public at large is as safe as possible.
The idea that we should forego public efforts to prepare for and respond to disasters, in favor of private individuals doing so out of their interest in personal profit, is basically insane.
That would not result in the widespread availability of needed supplies, because that assumes the widespread availability of money. People who don’t have money would die. They would die of thirst, or exposure, or starvation, or untreated injury, or any of 100 other unnecessary causes.
As LJ notes, the fact that this is even something we need to discuss tells you everything you need to know about what ails the US.
Rich country, poor people, and everyone wants to line up to put their foot on the neck of the poorest.
I wasn’t kidding when I said that “textbook economics” – naive, Econ 101 level dogma about the “free market” – is going to destroy the US as a self-governing republic.
Government bad.
Markets good.
Not just naive, naive and rapacious. What a combination.
The discussion gouging didn’t begin with things like a temporary increase in price of a finite resource like lumber, across a nation or international market, because of an increase in demand due to a storm.
Or, with the onset of chagrin among the grasshoppers among us who failed to procure a generator before the local big box ran out.
It began with this:
The Carolinas and Virginia have invoked their anti-price gouging laws. So don’t look for many people to be in a big hurry to bring in needed supplies and services in the aftermath of the storm
Which is simply false.
People don’t need a “price signal” to bring needed supplies and services in the aftermath of a storm. They will bring them because they aren’t jerks and they want to help people who were affected by the storm. Some of them will bring them because they are responsible, professionally and as public servants, for insuring that the public at large is as safe as possible.
The idea that we should forego public efforts to prepare for and respond to disasters, in favor of private individuals doing so out of their interest in personal profit, is basically insane.
That would not result in the widespread availability of needed supplies, because that assumes the widespread availability of money. People who don’t have money would die. They would die of thirst, or exposure, or starvation, or untreated injury, or any of 100 other unnecessary causes.
As LJ notes, the fact that this is even something we need to discuss tells you everything you need to know about what ails the US.
Rich country, poor people, and everyone wants to line up to put their foot on the neck of the poorest.
I wasn’t kidding when I said that “textbook economics” – naive, Econ 101 level dogma about the “free market” – is going to destroy the US as a self-governing republic.
Government bad.
Markets good.
Not just naive, naive and rapacious. What a combination.
It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
Unless it is a labor union bargaining to set a price for labor. Then this sacred principle goes out the window and the “watchman state” is asked to step in and use their monopoly on Force to put their thumbs on the scales in favor of property.
Charles strikes me as a very nice guy, but it is bullshit rationales like these that raise my hackles when it comes to glibertarians and public policy, because their policy preferences are pure assholery that HUGELY favor a very small and select portion of society.
It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
Unless it is a labor union bargaining to set a price for labor. Then this sacred principle goes out the window and the “watchman state” is asked to step in and use their monopoly on Force to put their thumbs on the scales in favor of property.
Charles strikes me as a very nice guy, but it is bullshit rationales like these that raise my hackles when it comes to glibertarians and public policy, because their policy preferences are pure assholery that HUGELY favor a very small and select portion of society.
The idea that we should forego public efforts to prepare for and respond to disasters, in favor of private individuals doing so out of their interest in personal profit, is basically insane.
I think the term you are looking for is sociopathic.
Basically, the idea that markets are the solution to everything, and “all the market will bear” is an acceptable price? That’s the ultra-libertarian view run amok. If you think that’s all good, explain why you have not moved to a place where your ideal is available today: Somalia. For that matter, why are things so grim there, since it’s implemented the perfect libertarian/market environment?
The idea that we should forego public efforts to prepare for and respond to disasters, in favor of private individuals doing so out of their interest in personal profit, is basically insane.
I think the term you are looking for is sociopathic.
Basically, the idea that markets are the solution to everything, and “all the market will bear” is an acceptable price? That’s the ultra-libertarian view run amok. If you think that’s all good, explain why you have not moved to a place where your ideal is available today: Somalia. For that matter, why are things so grim there, since it’s implemented the perfect libertarian/market environment?
Econ 101 doesn’t promote a dogma of free markets. CharlesWT does. It’s a libertarian thing. A small number of economists are libertarians. A large number are people who are trying to figure out how government can promote economic growth, and solve problems like monopolies.
Also, what wj just said.
Econ 101 doesn’t promote a dogma of free markets. CharlesWT does. It’s a libertarian thing. A small number of economists are libertarians. A large number are people who are trying to figure out how government can promote economic growth, and solve problems like monopolies.
Also, what wj just said.
It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
I can get my head around there is a libertarian argument that it might be problematic or undesirable to legislate against such behaviour. To argue that it’s morally acceptable is another thing entirely.
It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
I can get my head around there is a libertarian argument that it might be problematic or undesirable to legislate against such behaviour. To argue that it’s morally acceptable is another thing entirely.
The idea that we should forego public efforts to prepare for and respond to disasters, in favor of private individuals doing so out of their interest in personal profit, is basically insane.
I didn’t say that the government and NGOs like the Red Cross shouldn’t be helping. They can help the poor while the “price-gougers” could reduce the load on them by selling to people with money.
The idea that we should forego public efforts to prepare for and respond to disasters, in favor of private individuals doing so out of their interest in personal profit, is basically insane.
I didn’t say that the government and NGOs like the Red Cross shouldn’t be helping. They can help the poor while the “price-gougers” could reduce the load on them by selling to people with money.
I think it’s usually a mistake for governments to regulate prices.
I want to live in a world where economics isn’t everything: where the local shopkeeper is part of the community, he extends credit to a family in temporary difficulties, he gives a price break to the poor, and in an emergency he provides supplies at their usual price or below.
But there’s two sides to it: to make all that possible he has to be supported by the community: if people save a bit of money by buying everything possible online, or by doing much of their shopping at the Walmart in the next town, then he’s going to be forced to cut his margins and he’ll need paying when an emergency arrives for the cost of carrying his stock. And if he’s tempted to make some extra too, that should be between him and his customers. If his pricing alienates them, that will create an opportunity for a new shopkeeper.
I think it’s usually a mistake for governments to regulate prices.
I want to live in a world where economics isn’t everything: where the local shopkeeper is part of the community, he extends credit to a family in temporary difficulties, he gives a price break to the poor, and in an emergency he provides supplies at their usual price or below.
But there’s two sides to it: to make all that possible he has to be supported by the community: if people save a bit of money by buying everything possible online, or by doing much of their shopping at the Walmart in the next town, then he’s going to be forced to cut his margins and he’ll need paying when an emergency arrives for the cost of carrying his stock. And if he’s tempted to make some extra too, that should be between him and his customers. If his pricing alienates them, that will create an opportunity for a new shopkeeper.
I didn’t say that the government and NGOs like the Red Cross shouldn’t be helping.
You didn’t _not_ say it, which is often why I have to raise an eyebrow at your comments from time to time.
They can help the poor while the “price-gougers” could reduce the load on them by selling to people with money.
Similar to the quotation marks around ‘price-gougers’.
Two articles unrelated to hurricanes, but kind of interesting in terms of market economics and what the glibertarian stance on this would be.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/an-anarchist-is-teaching-patients-to-make-their-own-medications/
https://gizmodo.com/a-diy-pharmaceutical-revolution-is-coming-if-it-doesn-t-1796865404
I didn’t say that the government and NGOs like the Red Cross shouldn’t be helping.
You didn’t _not_ say it, which is often why I have to raise an eyebrow at your comments from time to time.
They can help the poor while the “price-gougers” could reduce the load on them by selling to people with money.
Similar to the quotation marks around ‘price-gougers’.
Two articles unrelated to hurricanes, but kind of interesting in terms of market economics and what the glibertarian stance on this would be.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/an-anarchist-is-teaching-patients-to-make-their-own-medications/
https://gizmodo.com/a-diy-pharmaceutical-revolution-is-coming-if-it-doesn-t-1796865404
. But it isn’t entirely obvious why someone, living where hurricanes happen so often, wouldn’t deal with the need for a generator during the off season,
they are very expensive (if you want one big enough to pump well water, for example). you need an electrician to install it (and that means finding one who will answer your call, and then taking a day off work to wait for him to get there and do his stuff).
that’s why we don’t have one. yet.
. But it isn’t entirely obvious why someone, living where hurricanes happen so often, wouldn’t deal with the need for a generator during the off season,
they are very expensive (if you want one big enough to pump well water, for example). you need an electrician to install it (and that means finding one who will answer your call, and then taking a day off work to wait for him to get there and do his stuff).
that’s why we don’t have one. yet.
Is he morally wrong if he doesn’t sell at all?
if he’s not selling because he left, then obviously, no.
but if he’s not selling because of… spite? pique? then obviously, yes.
but again, since formalized morality is a human creation, if humans feel price gouging is morally wrong, then it is.
there’s no morality axis on the supply-demand graph, because supply-demand is an incomplete description of human reality.
Is he morally wrong if he doesn’t sell at all?
if he’s not selling because he left, then obviously, no.
but if he’s not selling because of… spite? pique? then obviously, yes.
but again, since formalized morality is a human creation, if humans feel price gouging is morally wrong, then it is.
there’s no morality axis on the supply-demand graph, because supply-demand is an incomplete description of human reality.
All the world is a commodities exchange, and we are merely traders.
(Said no one ever.)
All the world is a commodities exchange, and we are merely traders.
(Said no one ever.)
Econ 101 doesn’t promote a dogma of free markets. CharlesWT does
Agreed. And not to pick on Charles, it’s just the common libertarian trope.
Markets are a great mechanism for certain things. They are not a great mechanism for every thing.
What we are talking about here is not the threat of a centrally planned economy, or government price setting.
We are talking about local and state governments intervening to prevent businesses in particular places, in the context of catastrophic natural disaster, from enriching themselves by exploiting the misfortune of their neighbors.
Regarding competition and meritocracies, I don’t see jacking the price of water, or gas, or food, or whatever, in the immediate aftermath of a hurricane as a sign of personal merit.
If we think liberty is nothing more than license to screw over other people, we’ve lost the plot.
Econ 101 doesn’t promote a dogma of free markets. CharlesWT does
Agreed. And not to pick on Charles, it’s just the common libertarian trope.
Markets are a great mechanism for certain things. They are not a great mechanism for every thing.
What we are talking about here is not the threat of a centrally planned economy, or government price setting.
We are talking about local and state governments intervening to prevent businesses in particular places, in the context of catastrophic natural disaster, from enriching themselves by exploiting the misfortune of their neighbors.
Regarding competition and meritocracies, I don’t see jacking the price of water, or gas, or food, or whatever, in the immediate aftermath of a hurricane as a sign of personal merit.
If we think liberty is nothing more than license to screw over other people, we’ve lost the plot.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a23099217/hurricane-florence-pig-manure-coal-ash/
We don’t need no stinkin’ the rest of it either
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a23099217/hurricane-florence-pig-manure-coal-ash/
We don’t need no stinkin’ the rest of it either
yeah. thanks to those pig and chicken farms, eastern NC is a bad place for a convertible, even on a good day.
yeah. thanks to those pig and chicken farms, eastern NC is a bad place for a convertible, even on a good day.
If I wanted to see America in a hoarding, price gouging attitude, I’d resume watching The Walking Dead.
Which I stopped watching because all of the internecine petty back-stabbing and treachery among the still human had me eventually rooting for the Zombie dead, who, to say nothing else for them, seemed highly singleminded in their rational self interest.
They, the Zombies, could perhaps have used a spokesperson like Sarah Huckabee sanders to burnish their behavioral choices in the area of face-chewing.
“they are merely upset at all of the unfounded criticism” she would intone
woodenly. “You’d lash out too. Next, I’ll take a question from FOX News regarding the upside of unregulated rotting on the hoof.”
If I wanted to see America in a hoarding, price gouging attitude, I’d resume watching The Walking Dead.
Which I stopped watching because all of the internecine petty back-stabbing and treachery among the still human had me eventually rooting for the Zombie dead, who, to say nothing else for them, seemed highly singleminded in their rational self interest.
They, the Zombies, could perhaps have used a spokesperson like Sarah Huckabee sanders to burnish their behavioral choices in the area of face-chewing.
“they are merely upset at all of the unfounded criticism” she would intone
woodenly. “You’d lash out too. Next, I’ll take a question from FOX News regarding the upside of unregulated rotting on the hoof.”
Zombies, at least, value “brains”.
The modern GOP, not so much.
Zombies, at least, value “brains”.
The modern GOP, not so much.
CharlesWT: I rather thought I had excluded needy or desperate local merchants by my mention of shipping in the continental US, and clearly if anti-gouging legislation does not allow for necessary extra shipping costs (or, jrudkis, higher costs for suddenly purchasing extra stock of e.g.tanks) I (and probably others who think as I do) would consider that wrong. I do realise that my example was, by the standards of most of you, pretty simpleminded, but it has told me what I wanted to know. When CharlesWT says It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it, he is clearly OK with a merchant charging so much that only the rich in the affected area can afford it, leaving the poor to depend on the theoretical charity of the Red Cross, or NGOs (or Walmart!) etc. I agree with most of what Pro Bono said at 03.33, but do think there should be exceptions in the case of e.g. war or disaster relief.
CharlesWT: I rather thought I had excluded needy or desperate local merchants by my mention of shipping in the continental US, and clearly if anti-gouging legislation does not allow for necessary extra shipping costs (or, jrudkis, higher costs for suddenly purchasing extra stock of e.g.tanks) I (and probably others who think as I do) would consider that wrong. I do realise that my example was, by the standards of most of you, pretty simpleminded, but it has told me what I wanted to know. When CharlesWT says It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it, he is clearly OK with a merchant charging so much that only the rich in the affected area can afford it, leaving the poor to depend on the theoretical charity of the Red Cross, or NGOs (or Walmart!) etc. I agree with most of what Pro Bono said at 03.33, but do think there should be exceptions in the case of e.g. war or disaster relief.
“For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.”
To zombies, the living are all Christ.
“For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.”
To zombies, the living are all Christ.
Live video.
A repurposed Coast Guard tower 34 miles off the coast southeast of Wilmington, N.C.
Myrtle Beach Cam
Live video.
A repurposed Coast Guard tower 34 miles off the coast southeast of Wilmington, N.C.
Myrtle Beach Cam
…, he is clearly OK with a merchant charging so much that only the rich in the affected area can afford it, …
Well, this would be redistribution from the wealthy to the not so wealthy. Which is what many of the gougers would be. People leasing trucks and loading them with things they think people in the affected area will pay a premium for.
Even if allowed, most local merchants wouldn’t raise their prices very much if they expected to stay in business after the crisis is over. Exceptions might be gas stations and convenience stores on major highways that aren’t as dependent on local patronage.
…, he is clearly OK with a merchant charging so much that only the rich in the affected area can afford it, …
Well, this would be redistribution from the wealthy to the not so wealthy. Which is what many of the gougers would be. People leasing trucks and loading them with things they think people in the affected area will pay a premium for.
Even if allowed, most local merchants wouldn’t raise their prices very much if they expected to stay in business after the crisis is over. Exceptions might be gas stations and convenience stores on major highways that aren’t as dependent on local patronage.
Do not sure I agree with any kind of price gouging, it is immoral. Taking advantage of a desperate situation is the definition of immoral and against pretty much all I believe. It is over the between economic freedom and basic humanity.
I am keeping all of you in the path of thed hurricane in my prayers.
Do not sure I agree with any kind of price gouging, it is immoral. Taking advantage of a desperate situation is the definition of immoral and against pretty much all I believe. It is over the between economic freedom and basic humanity.
I am keeping all of you in the path of thed hurricane in my prayers.
Do not sure I agree with any kind of price gouging, it is immoral.
Why is doing well while doing good so bad?
Do not sure I agree with any kind of price gouging, it is immoral.
Why is doing well while doing good so bad?
Why is doing well while doing good so bad?
Because this is a widespread needs based emergency situation. When one ‘gouges’under such circumstances there is a reasonable assumption the suppliers are not supplying “more” to the market, just asking for a higher price of existing inventory.
You might find this really really hard to believe, but during the ’emergency’ of WWII there were price controls to prevent just this.
Yes. True story.
My fondest wish is to see the establishment of some isolated glibertarian paradise and see it face an existential crisis and watch the richest of them try to buy their way out.
Scum.
Why is doing well while doing good so bad?
Because this is a widespread needs based emergency situation. When one ‘gouges’under such circumstances there is a reasonable assumption the suppliers are not supplying “more” to the market, just asking for a higher price of existing inventory.
You might find this really really hard to believe, but during the ’emergency’ of WWII there were price controls to prevent just this.
Yes. True story.
My fondest wish is to see the establishment of some isolated glibertarian paradise and see it face an existential crisis and watch the richest of them try to buy their way out.
Scum.
Charles, There is a line that beyond it your primary motivation should be caring of those in immediate need. That line is not the same for everyone, mine is the line where you consciously abuse your ability to take peoples money because they are desperate, particularly when they have done what they can to help themselves.
You are not doing good if you screw people just because you know you can.
Charles, There is a line that beyond it your primary motivation should be caring of those in immediate need. That line is not the same for everyone, mine is the line where you consciously abuse your ability to take peoples money because they are desperate, particularly when they have done what they can to help themselves.
You are not doing good if you screw people just because you know you can.
Well said, Marty.
Well said, Marty.
libertarianism really needs to find a way to deal with the fact that people are not what it’s models say they should be.
libertarianism really needs to find a way to deal with the fact that people are not what it’s models say they should be.
You are not doing good if you screw people just because you know you can.
From my point of view, you’re screwing people if deny them things they need just because you don’t approve of the price they may pay for them.
Articles are already reporting shortages of gas and generators in the area.
You are not doing good if you screw people just because you know you can.
From my point of view, you’re screwing people if deny them things they need just because you don’t approve of the price they may pay for them.
Articles are already reporting shortages of gas and generators in the area.
Articles are already reporting shortages of gas and generators in the area.
Duke Energy is estimating that as many as three million of their four million customers in the area will lose power, and that many people will be w/o power for weeks. Millions of people are leaving the area all at once. No place stocks enough generators and gasoline to meet that kind of extreme demand.
Consider that w/o electricity to run pumps, the whole regional gasoline delivery system stops. The pipelines don’t run, the transfer pumps into storage tanks and tanker trucks don’t work, and the pumps that lift the fuel from underground storage into cars/cans don’t work.
Articles are already reporting shortages of gas and generators in the area.
Duke Energy is estimating that as many as three million of their four million customers in the area will lose power, and that many people will be w/o power for weeks. Millions of people are leaving the area all at once. No place stocks enough generators and gasoline to meet that kind of extreme demand.
Consider that w/o electricity to run pumps, the whole regional gasoline delivery system stops. The pipelines don’t run, the transfer pumps into storage tanks and tanker trucks don’t work, and the pumps that lift the fuel from underground storage into cars/cans don’t work.
This storm is so strange. A couple of days ago, I was worried about my city being pummeled, but I think we’ll be spared, except for a bit of wind and rain. The trajectory is so meandering. Really weird. I’m relieved. I’ll donate in gratitude. A lot of people are going to be hurting.
This storm is so strange. A couple of days ago, I was worried about my city being pummeled, but I think we’ll be spared, except for a bit of wind and rain. The trajectory is so meandering. Really weird. I’m relieved. I’ll donate in gratitude. A lot of people are going to be hurting.
…and that many people will be w/o power for weeks.
The operator has begun shutting down the Brunswick nuclear power plant between Wilmington and Cape Fear. There is considerable speculation that the 10-12 foot storm surge forecast for the plant’s location, plus 30″ of local rain and runoff from farther inland, will top the plant’s flood barriers.
…and that many people will be w/o power for weeks.
The operator has begun shutting down the Brunswick nuclear power plant between Wilmington and Cape Fear. There is considerable speculation that the 10-12 foot storm surge forecast for the plant’s location, plus 30″ of local rain and runoff from farther inland, will top the plant’s flood barriers.
No place stocks enough generators and gasoline to meet that kind of extreme demand.
The gasoline shortages are said to be temporary at present due to customers pumping it out faster than it can be replenished.
In the absence of gouging laws, people might be in parking lots right now selling generators out of the back of U-Haul trucks.
No place stocks enough generators and gasoline to meet that kind of extreme demand.
The gasoline shortages are said to be temporary at present due to customers pumping it out faster than it can be replenished.
In the absence of gouging laws, people might be in parking lots right now selling generators out of the back of U-Haul trucks.
In the absence of gouging laws, people might be in parking lots right now selling generators out of the back of U-Haul trucks.
are you trying to make libertarianism sound like a bunch of rationalizations designed to keep the rich alive at the expense of everyone else?
In the absence of gouging laws, people might be in parking lots right now selling generators out of the back of U-Haul trucks.
are you trying to make libertarianism sound like a bunch of rationalizations designed to keep the rich alive at the expense of everyone else?
How is selling generators to anyone who wants to buy them preventing anyone else from being helped?
How is selling generators to anyone who wants to buy them preventing anyone else from being helped?
I think the take-away here is that, for most people, the libertarian ideal is not attractive.
Looks good on paper, sort of, but nobody wants to live there.
I think the take-away here is that, for most people, the libertarian ideal is not attractive.
Looks good on paper, sort of, but nobody wants to live there.
How is selling generators to anyone who wants to buy them preventing anyone else from being helped?
Did someone suggest that people not be allowed to sell generators?
At what price would it be worth getting a generator and a truck to haul it and driving however many miles to sell it? How many people would be willing or could afford to buy a generator at that price? Who’s going to be in the parking lot looking for a generator at the last minute? How are they going to get the generator home?
Are we talking about small generators you can plug a refrigerator and some lights into?
Who’s going to enforce anti-gouging laws so well that the kind of person who would otherwise throw generators into a truck and rush into a hurricane would decide against it? Who composes this would-be trucks-full-of-generators army?
I want some of whatever you smoked for breakfast, Charles.
How is selling generators to anyone who wants to buy them preventing anyone else from being helped?
Did someone suggest that people not be allowed to sell generators?
At what price would it be worth getting a generator and a truck to haul it and driving however many miles to sell it? How many people would be willing or could afford to buy a generator at that price? Who’s going to be in the parking lot looking for a generator at the last minute? How are they going to get the generator home?
Are we talking about small generators you can plug a refrigerator and some lights into?
Who’s going to enforce anti-gouging laws so well that the kind of person who would otherwise throw generators into a truck and rush into a hurricane would decide against it? Who composes this would-be trucks-full-of-generators army?
I want some of whatever you smoked for breakfast, Charles.
Maybe the take-away is whether market pricing is an appropriate method to allocate resources in an emergency.
Hard to say, IMHO.
Maybe the take-away is whether market pricing is an appropriate method to allocate resources in an emergency.
Hard to say, IMHO.
When demand greatly exceeds supply, then some form of rationing is going to occur.
Rationing by price is what CharlesWT prefers. With strict anti-gouging laws, it would be rationing by “first come, first served”. There may be better outcomes, but I’m pretty sure they’re going to look even closer to the dread SOCIALIST TYRANNY!
Please note that this the same situation in health care, where the “supply” is also life-critical.
When demand greatly exceeds supply, then some form of rationing is going to occur.
Rationing by price is what CharlesWT prefers. With strict anti-gouging laws, it would be rationing by “first come, first served”. There may be better outcomes, but I’m pretty sure they’re going to look even closer to the dread SOCIALIST TYRANNY!
Please note that this the same situation in health care, where the “supply” is also life-critical.
‘market’ pricing (where the market allows gouging) is fine, if you’re always the richest person around in an emergency. sucks to be anyone else.
‘market’ pricing (where the market allows gouging) is fine, if you’re always the richest person around in an emergency. sucks to be anyone else.
I continue to sit here and shake my head.
Following a natural disaster, we do not want to be in the position of relying on market dynamics to supply needed supplies. With or without price controls.
People – individuals, communities, societies, cities counties states and nations – who are not insane recognize that disasters are possible, and they plan ahead so that they are able to respond to them.
At a certain point, the means required to respond to disasters exceeds what individuals can, in general, assemble for themselves. That is where other actors – non-profits, governments – step in.
In a not-insane world, the immediate needs of people who have been affected by disaster – water, food, shelter including heat, basic utilities, and someplace to go to the bathroom and maybe bathe – are provided to the people affected, by other people with whom they share a community of some kind, without regard for profit, from the resources that have been allocated to respond to disasters.
Right?
Life these days is just one whiskey tango foxtrot moment after another.
I continue to sit here and shake my head.
Following a natural disaster, we do not want to be in the position of relying on market dynamics to supply needed supplies. With or without price controls.
People – individuals, communities, societies, cities counties states and nations – who are not insane recognize that disasters are possible, and they plan ahead so that they are able to respond to them.
At a certain point, the means required to respond to disasters exceeds what individuals can, in general, assemble for themselves. That is where other actors – non-profits, governments – step in.
In a not-insane world, the immediate needs of people who have been affected by disaster – water, food, shelter including heat, basic utilities, and someplace to go to the bathroom and maybe bathe – are provided to the people affected, by other people with whom they share a community of some kind, without regard for profit, from the resources that have been allocated to respond to disasters.
Right?
Life these days is just one whiskey tango foxtrot moment after another.
forgot medical care in my list of things to provide in the event of disaster. kindly consider it added to the list.
forgot medical care in my list of things to provide in the event of disaster. kindly consider it added to the list.
If all that stuff was happening, there would not be an opportunity to price gouge.
If all that stuff was happening, there would not be an opportunity to price gouge.
When russell wrote “whiskey tango foxtrot” he wasn’t referring to government-supplied whiskey, so there would still be that. I’d want some friggin’ whiskey and would pay through the nose to get it.
When russell wrote “whiskey tango foxtrot” he wasn’t referring to government-supplied whiskey, so there would still be that. I’d want some friggin’ whiskey and would pay through the nose to get it.
If all that stuff was happening, there would not be an opportunity to price gouge
No opportunity, because no need. Which is, more or less, my point.
FWIW I have no problem with people charging outrageous prices for “I survived Florence!” T-shirts.
If all that stuff was happening, there would not be an opportunity to price gouge
No opportunity, because no need. Which is, more or less, my point.
FWIW I have no problem with people charging outrageous prices for “I survived Florence!” T-shirts.
I drink too much anyway, so the Serwer piece won’t have much of an effect.
I drink too much anyway, so the Serwer piece won’t have much of an effect.
It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it
This is over-generalized, IMO.
Under normal circumstances, in normal commerce, it is OK. Someone is willing to pay $100 for a shirt? OK. Take the hundred, sell the shirt.
But I think this changes when circumstances are not normal, when lives are involved, or great destruction. At that point the market’s allocation of resources does not, I think match what most people think is best. Shall we water golf courses while some die of thirst, because the country club members are wealthy and can outbid the thirsty?
That said, much of this issue would go away if we had a sensible system of responding to natural catastrophe. Doing it by state is idiotic, because it leads to duplication, free riding, and crossed chains of command. I don’t actually understand why we don’t have a national stockpile of emergency supplies located at depots around the country so that some can be moved into affected areas quickly. It just seems like an obvious step to take, along with having trained personnel to do whatever is needed.
Would they be idle much of the time? Well, so is the army. It’s not like nobody could possibly anticipate that there might be big hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.
It’s OK to sell something at whatever someone is willing to pay for it
This is over-generalized, IMO.
Under normal circumstances, in normal commerce, it is OK. Someone is willing to pay $100 for a shirt? OK. Take the hundred, sell the shirt.
But I think this changes when circumstances are not normal, when lives are involved, or great destruction. At that point the market’s allocation of resources does not, I think match what most people think is best. Shall we water golf courses while some die of thirst, because the country club members are wealthy and can outbid the thirsty?
That said, much of this issue would go away if we had a sensible system of responding to natural catastrophe. Doing it by state is idiotic, because it leads to duplication, free riding, and crossed chains of command. I don’t actually understand why we don’t have a national stockpile of emergency supplies located at depots around the country so that some can be moved into affected areas quickly. It just seems like an obvious step to take, along with having trained personnel to do whatever is needed.
Would they be idle much of the time? Well, so is the army. It’s not like nobody could possibly anticipate that there might be big hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.
Ah, yes, the Whiskey Rebellion.
Price gougers receive their due:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdpKEs_dMHc
Ah, yes, the Whiskey Rebellion.
Price gougers receive their due:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdpKEs_dMHc
Another point.
The pro-gouging argument imagines an armada of pickup trucks laden with water, plywood, and whatnot, dashing to the scene of the disaster to profit from the situation.
Does that happen? I doubt it. How do they get through? How do people in the area find them? I suspect that most of the gouging is for supplies already on hand. That merely enriched the sellers, but does little to get more stuff in.
Price spikes in a natural disaster are a good example of a demand shift in the “immediate run,” – right away. It takes a while for suppliers to react. The actual response is likely to be too small to have any significant effect.
Another point.
The pro-gouging argument imagines an armada of pickup trucks laden with water, plywood, and whatnot, dashing to the scene of the disaster to profit from the situation.
Does that happen? I doubt it. How do they get through? How do people in the area find them? I suspect that most of the gouging is for supplies already on hand. That merely enriched the sellers, but does little to get more stuff in.
Price spikes in a natural disaster are a good example of a demand shift in the “immediate run,” – right away. It takes a while for suppliers to react. The actual response is likely to be too small to have any significant effect.
Mp tweeted a few minutes ago that not a single Puerto Rican has perished in the North and South Carolina storm flooding.
What am I bid for this rare morsel of truth?
Mp tweeted a few minutes ago that not a single Puerto Rican has perished in the North and South Carolina storm flooding.
What am I bid for this rare morsel of truth?
Ah, but is it a morsel of truth. I realize that most of the Puerto Ricans who relocated went to Florida. But none in the Carolinas?
Ah, but is it a morsel of truth. I realize that most of the Puerto Ricans who relocated went to Florida. But none in the Carolinas?
He, Trump sips from the same font of “knowledge” as His SCOTUS nominee.
–TP
He, Trump sips from the same font of “knowledge” as His SCOTUS nominee.
–TP
To counter your arguments countering price gouging, more arguments for. 🙂
“But the outrage at profit-seeking price gougers does not magically conjure critical supplies. When the volunteers do arrive, they’re often unskilled and further burden the fragile infrastructure. They also bring the wrong things: toys, extra clothes, and way, way, way too much bottled water. Meanwhile, shrieking outrage at the price-gougers on your television is no substitute for providing things that people actually need to buy.”
Why Price-Gouging Helps People Recover Faster From Natural Disasters: You might grumble at having to pay high prices. But shortages turn disaster areas into looting zones as otherwise law-abiding citizens become desperate for essential supplies.
“Rather than being scams taking advantage of desperate people, higher prices are exactly what we need to ensure we don’t run out of necessities like water and gas. They are like flashing red lights to bottled water suppliers, bread makers, and gasoline distributors in other states, telling them Yes! You CAN redirect your stuff to North Carolina because you can still take care of your families when you do!“
North Carolina’s anti-price gouging law makes things worse, not better
To counter your arguments countering price gouging, more arguments for. 🙂
“But the outrage at profit-seeking price gougers does not magically conjure critical supplies. When the volunteers do arrive, they’re often unskilled and further burden the fragile infrastructure. They also bring the wrong things: toys, extra clothes, and way, way, way too much bottled water. Meanwhile, shrieking outrage at the price-gougers on your television is no substitute for providing things that people actually need to buy.”
Why Price-Gouging Helps People Recover Faster From Natural Disasters: You might grumble at having to pay high prices. But shortages turn disaster areas into looting zones as otherwise law-abiding citizens become desperate for essential supplies.
“Rather than being scams taking advantage of desperate people, higher prices are exactly what we need to ensure we don’t run out of necessities like water and gas. They are like flashing red lights to bottled water suppliers, bread makers, and gasoline distributors in other states, telling them Yes! You CAN redirect your stuff to North Carolina because you can still take care of your families when you do!“
North Carolina’s anti-price gouging law makes things worse, not better
From Charles link:
“Laws against “price gouging” are laws that tell suppliers they can’t break even.”
That is just false. The NC price gouging law explicitly takes into account higher supply chain costs as acceptable impacts on prices.
From Charles link:
“Laws against “price gouging” are laws that tell suppliers they can’t break even.”
That is just false. The NC price gouging law explicitly takes into account higher supply chain costs as acceptable impacts on prices.
“higher prices are exactly what we need to ensure we don’t run out of necessities like water and gas.”
This is so crazy. Higher prices is equivalent to running out, if you’re not rich.
“higher prices are exactly what we need to ensure we don’t run out of necessities like water and gas.”
This is so crazy. Higher prices is equivalent to running out, if you’re not rich.
Cleek, you just have to understand that, in Libertarian World everybody is, at the very least, well off. At minimum, they have money in the bank and are adding to it regularly. So higher prices only mean that they will (temporarily!) be saving less. Not really a major problem, obviously.
Ignore all those poor people beyond the curtain. They are just figments of your fevered imagination — because if they weren’t, the whole ideological edifice would collapse and we can’t have that.
Cleek, you just have to understand that, in Libertarian World everybody is, at the very least, well off. At minimum, they have money in the bank and are adding to it regularly. So higher prices only mean that they will (temporarily!) be saving less. Not really a major problem, obviously.
Ignore all those poor people beyond the curtain. They are just figments of your fevered imagination — because if they weren’t, the whole ideological edifice would collapse and we can’t have that.
What am I bid for this rare morsel of truth?
I bid all of Charles WT’s money.
What am I bid for this rare morsel of truth?
I bid all of Charles WT’s money.
mp travels to the Carolinas next week to play “Hit the doofus marks in the head with a roll of thrown paper towels.”
He will address his “fellow Puerto Ricans.”
Bring heads of rotten cabbage to thrown back at him.
Greet him like Johnny Reb greeted the Union garrison at Fort Sumter.
mp travels to the Carolinas next week to play “Hit the doofus marks in the head with a roll of thrown paper towels.”
He will address his “fellow Puerto Ricans.”
Bring heads of rotten cabbage to thrown back at him.
Greet him like Johnny Reb greeted the Union garrison at Fort Sumter.
Given the libertarian role in causing climate change, this looks more like a long term scheme to profit off of generators.
It’s a telling social phenomenon of late capitalism that we are willing to construct elaborate computer networks to conduct secure transactions with each other — and in the process torpedoing our hopes at a clean energy future.
Given the libertarian role in causing climate change, this looks more like a long term scheme to profit off of generators.
It’s a telling social phenomenon of late capitalism that we are willing to construct elaborate computer networks to conduct secure transactions with each other — and in the process torpedoing our hopes at a clean energy future.
Bitcoin mining is greatest in countries where the cost of electricity is subsidized by the government.
Bitcoin mining is greatest in countries where the cost of electricity is subsidized by the government.
In what country is the cost of electricity not subsidized by the government?
In what country is the cost of electricity not subsidized by the government?
Perhaps I should have said heavily subsidized like China and Venezuela. Or is naturally cheap like Canada, hydroelectric and Iceland, geothermal.
Perhaps I should have said heavily subsidized like China and Venezuela. Or is naturally cheap like Canada, hydroelectric and Iceland, geothermal.
Perhaps I should have said heavily subsidized like China and Venezuela.
I assume your point is that because it is being subsidized, all these Venezualans and Chinese are bitcoin mining and if it weren’t they wouldn’t be? yokay.
My point is that the libertarian impulse to argue against any regulation whatsoever as a hugh infringement of freedom and an illogical response is probably a big reason why we have so many problems with climate change and other similar phenomenon, cause that argumentation has been (and will always be) hijacked to give corporations cover. I know it’s a subtle, as opposed to ‘people need generators so it could never be ‘price gouging”, but that’s just the way I roll…
Perhaps I should have said heavily subsidized like China and Venezuela.
I assume your point is that because it is being subsidized, all these Venezualans and Chinese are bitcoin mining and if it weren’t they wouldn’t be? yokay.
My point is that the libertarian impulse to argue against any regulation whatsoever as a hugh infringement of freedom and an illogical response is probably a big reason why we have so many problems with climate change and other similar phenomenon, cause that argumentation has been (and will always be) hijacked to give corporations cover. I know it’s a subtle, as opposed to ‘people need generators so it could never be ‘price gouging”, but that’s just the way I roll…
The wealthiest Republican donor in Ohio just announced he quit the party:
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/406822-wealthiest-republican-supporter-in-ohio-quits-party
Tax breaks apparently aren’t everything all of the time.
The wealthiest Republican donor in Ohio just announced he quit the party:
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/406822-wealthiest-republican-supporter-in-ohio-quits-party
Tax breaks apparently aren’t everything all of the time.
OT, so: the fictitious identities of the two Russians in the Novichok case would be funny, if it didn’t show how much contempt Putin and the Russians have for international opinion that they’ve done so little to cover their tracks (and of course they also want to sow fear and confusion):
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/novichok-suspects_uk_5b9ca9f8e4b013b0977aff8d?5le&utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage
OT, so: the fictitious identities of the two Russians in the Novichok case would be funny, if it didn’t show how much contempt Putin and the Russians have for international opinion that they’ve done so little to cover their tracks (and of course they also want to sow fear and confusion):
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/novichok-suspects_uk_5b9ca9f8e4b013b0977aff8d?5le&utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage
(Text to avoid the moderation pit)
Remy: Bitcoin Billionaire (YouTube)
(Text to avoid the moderation pit)
Remy: Bitcoin Billionaire (YouTube)
GftNC, it appears that the RT interview has had an impact in Russia:
“>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/09/15/how-badly-did-russias-interview-with-the-skripal-poisoning-suspects-backfire/
Perhaps our administration isn’t alone in having incompetence/shoot-yourself-in-the-foot issues.
GftNC, it appears that the RT interview has had an impact in Russia:
“>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/09/15/how-badly-did-russias-interview-with-the-skripal-poisoning-suspects-backfire/
Perhaps our administration isn’t alone in having incompetence/shoot-yourself-in-the-foot issues.
doofus marks in the head with a roll of thrown paper towels.”
He will address his “fellow Puerto Ricans.”
Bring heads of rotten cabbage to thrown back at him.
While “heads of rotten cabbage” are traditional, for Trump I strongly suggest “rotting peaches”.
“impeachment”, any way we can.
doofus marks in the head with a roll of thrown paper towels.”
He will address his “fellow Puerto Ricans.”
Bring heads of rotten cabbage to thrown back at him.
While “heads of rotten cabbage” are traditional, for Trump I strongly suggest “rotting peaches”.
“impeachment”, any way we can.
In the absence of gouging laws, people might be in parking lots right now selling generators out of the back of U-Haul trucks.
I’ve been thinking about this some more. And it occurs to me that, if you look at it, the anti-gouging laws are actually there to protect the guys selling generators out of the back of U-Haul trucks.
Consider. With anti-gouging laws, people buying those generators know that, while the seller is making money (and rightly so), he isn’t massively exploiting their dire straights. But without them, they have every reason to suspect that he is exploiting them. So sure, if they’re rich, they pay anyway — they can easily afford to. But most people can’t afford to. So they take the 2nd Amendment approach to care for their families.
Hard on the sellers, that. Far better, if you are a seller, to have anti-gouging laws. Maybe you make a little less money. On the other hand, you’re far more likely to survive to spend it. Think about it.
In the absence of gouging laws, people might be in parking lots right now selling generators out of the back of U-Haul trucks.
I’ve been thinking about this some more. And it occurs to me that, if you look at it, the anti-gouging laws are actually there to protect the guys selling generators out of the back of U-Haul trucks.
Consider. With anti-gouging laws, people buying those generators know that, while the seller is making money (and rightly so), he isn’t massively exploiting their dire straights. But without them, they have every reason to suspect that he is exploiting them. So sure, if they’re rich, they pay anyway — they can easily afford to. But most people can’t afford to. So they take the 2nd Amendment approach to care for their families.
Hard on the sellers, that. Far better, if you are a seller, to have anti-gouging laws. Maybe you make a little less money. On the other hand, you’re far more likely to survive to spend it. Think about it.
wj: the next step is to have heavily-armed gangs running the “gouging sales out of the back of the u-haul”; mostly abusing downtrodden disaster victims, but with occasional attacks by equally heavily-armed raiders.
Just like a post-apocalypse movie.
Give it another few years of DisasterTrumpism and we might be there.
wj: the next step is to have heavily-armed gangs running the “gouging sales out of the back of the u-haul”; mostly abusing downtrodden disaster victims, but with occasional attacks by equally heavily-armed raiders.
Just like a post-apocalypse movie.
Give it another few years of DisasterTrumpism and we might be there.
Translation: “We’re in no big hurry to clean up and rebuild.”
“The state of North Carolina is currently in a state of emergency. That means our price gouging law is in effect and will remain so for at least 45 days. Price gouging, or charging too much during a crisis, is against the law.”
Rebuilding after Hurricane Florence
Translation: “We’re in no big hurry to clean up and rebuild.”
“The state of North Carolina is currently in a state of emergency. That means our price gouging law is in effect and will remain so for at least 45 days. Price gouging, or charging too much during a crisis, is against the law.”
Rebuilding after Hurricane Florence
Given that one reason these storms cause so much damage is failure to account for the effects of climate change, maybe rushing to rebuild isn’t the best idea?
Given that one reason these storms cause so much damage is failure to account for the effects of climate change, maybe rushing to rebuild isn’t the best idea?
Federal and state governments should stop subsidizing building and rebuilding in areas with high risks for wind and water damages.
Federal and state governments should stop subsidizing building and rebuilding in areas with high risks for wind and water damages.
That’s nice, how does encouraging people to quickly rebuild help with that?
That’s nice, how does encouraging people to quickly rebuild help with that?
Translation: “We’re in no big hurry to clean up and rebuild.”
you’re insane. seek help.
Translation: “We’re in no big hurry to clean up and rebuild.”
you’re insane. seek help.
What could possibly go wrong with this …
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/09/fema-will-test-a-system-that-would-allow-trump-to-text-directly-to-your-phone.html?
On Thursday, the Federal Emergency Management Agency will carry out its first test of a system that would allow the president to send a message directly to most U.S. mobile phones. “The EAS is a national public warning system that provides the president with the communications capability to address the nation during a national emergency,” explained FEMA on its website.
During the test, which is scheduled to take place Thursday at 2:18 p.m., cellphone users could receive a message with a header that reads “Presidential Alert.” The message will make it clear it’s a test. No one can opt out from the system….
What could possibly go wrong with this …
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/09/fema-will-test-a-system-that-would-allow-trump-to-text-directly-to-your-phone.html?
On Thursday, the Federal Emergency Management Agency will carry out its first test of a system that would allow the president to send a message directly to most U.S. mobile phones. “The EAS is a national public warning system that provides the president with the communications capability to address the nation during a national emergency,” explained FEMA on its website.
During the test, which is scheduled to take place Thursday at 2:18 p.m., cellphone users could receive a message with a header that reads “Presidential Alert.” The message will make it clear it’s a test. No one can opt out from the system….
What on earth can this mean other than teenage boys should get a pass on this kind of behaviour ?
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/16/trump-kavanaugh-allegations-response-826069
One outside Trump adviser was quick to suggest an effort to have Ford testify publicly amid the ongoing #MeToo wave would backfire on Democrats. “They’re playing a high-stakes game right now,” this adviser said. “You know there are a lot of people in this country who are parents of high school boys. This is not Anita Hill….
What on earth can this mean other than teenage boys should get a pass on this kind of behaviour ?
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/16/trump-kavanaugh-allegations-response-826069
One outside Trump adviser was quick to suggest an effort to have Ford testify publicly amid the ongoing #MeToo wave would backfire on Democrats. “They’re playing a high-stakes game right now,” this adviser said. “You know there are a lot of people in this country who are parents of high school boys. This is not Anita Hill….
What could possibly go wrong with this …
Hmmm…seems like I read about something like this in a book decades ago…oh, yeah, 1984…
What could possibly go wrong with this …
Hmmm…seems like I read about something like this in a book decades ago…oh, yeah, 1984…
If I get a presidential alert, I’ll ignore it. If something important is going on, I’m sure I’ll hear from one of the public safety agencies.
If I get a presidential alert, I’ll ignore it. If something important is going on, I’m sure I’ll hear from one of the public safety agencies.
Under the heading ‘can’t fool all of the people all of the time’….
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/09/17/ohio-2018-elections-senior-citizens-sherrod-brown-dewine-cordray-219914
Voters don’t always fit into neat socioeconomic stereotypes. Several retirees who came to see Brown discuss their pensions in Cambridge were still fuming about Clinton’s breezy observation on a visit to Ohio that she would “put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business.” But Don Cameron, a self-described Reagan Democrat wearing a camouflage United Mine Workers T-shirt, said he’s far more upset about Trump’s apathetic response to Hurricane Maria: “He said he did so much for Puerto Rico? What a joke!” Wharton, the blunt-spoken Vietnam vet, brought up Trump’s change-the-subject attacks on black athletes who kneel during the national anthem, then surprised me by siding with the protesters.
Under the heading ‘can’t fool all of the people all of the time’….
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/09/17/ohio-2018-elections-senior-citizens-sherrod-brown-dewine-cordray-219914
Voters don’t always fit into neat socioeconomic stereotypes. Several retirees who came to see Brown discuss their pensions in Cambridge were still fuming about Clinton’s breezy observation on a visit to Ohio that she would “put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business.” But Don Cameron, a self-described Reagan Democrat wearing a camouflage United Mine Workers T-shirt, said he’s far more upset about Trump’s apathetic response to Hurricane Maria: “He said he did so much for Puerto Rico? What a joke!” Wharton, the blunt-spoken Vietnam vet, brought up Trump’s change-the-subject attacks on black athletes who kneel during the national anthem, then surprised me by siding with the protesters.
Yes we should move everyone away from those places natural disasters happen. Uh, where is that again?
I am reasonably ambivalent on the Kavsnaugh charges.
What is alleged us quite bad, I am uncertain how bad.
Her description, it happened I think when I was fifteen at someones house I am not sure of, I cant remember who had the party or why, everyone there had one beer except thed two guys who were drunk when they got there.
It’s hard to go back 35 years except for one thing, it clearly scared her. But not as much as getting caught drinking beer at a place she wasnt supposed to be.
So, I believe the entitled rich kid thought he could have some fun with the cute girl who didn’t usually hang out with them, was drunk, took it too far and he and his friend were assholes.
I’ve now described the high school antics of most of the private school assholes I’ve ever known. Most of them escaped troubkloe to become good men who regret those days. I think punishing them now is stupid and unproductive.
If we had a way for him to express that regret without costing him a seat on the Supreme Court we could use it as a way to reinforce how bad that behavior is.
I did stupid things when I was young. Some worse than others. I grew up.
Yes we should move everyone away from those places natural disasters happen. Uh, where is that again?
I am reasonably ambivalent on the Kavsnaugh charges.
What is alleged us quite bad, I am uncertain how bad.
Her description, it happened I think when I was fifteen at someones house I am not sure of, I cant remember who had the party or why, everyone there had one beer except thed two guys who were drunk when they got there.
It’s hard to go back 35 years except for one thing, it clearly scared her. But not as much as getting caught drinking beer at a place she wasnt supposed to be.
So, I believe the entitled rich kid thought he could have some fun with the cute girl who didn’t usually hang out with them, was drunk, took it too far and he and his friend were assholes.
I’ve now described the high school antics of most of the private school assholes I’ve ever known. Most of them escaped troubkloe to become good men who regret those days. I think punishing them now is stupid and unproductive.
If we had a way for him to express that regret without costing him a seat on the Supreme Court we could use it as a way to reinforce how bad that behavior is.
I did stupid things when I was young. Some worse than others. I grew up.
If we had a way for him to express that regret without costing him a seat on the Supreme Court we could use it as a way to reinforce how bad that behavior is.
One way coercive boys could show that they’ve grown up is to recognize women’s right to make decisions about their own bodies. Just a thought.
If we had a way for him to express that regret without costing him a seat on the Supreme Court we could use it as a way to reinforce how bad that behavior is.
One way coercive boys could show that they’ve grown up is to recognize women’s right to make decisions about their own bodies. Just a thought.
without costing him a seat on the Supreme Court
he would have to settle for a lifetime job making $220K as a federal circuit court judge.
without costing him a seat on the Supreme Court
he would have to settle for a lifetime job making $220K as a federal circuit court judge.
Well obviously $220K per year hasn’t been enough to stay out of debt for the last decade. Until a few months, and the magic clearing of those debts. So he needs the additional $30K. Not to mention he will doubtless make a lot more in speaking fees….
Well obviously $220K per year hasn’t been enough to stay out of debt for the last decade. Until a few months, and the magic clearing of those debts. So he needs the additional $30K. Not to mention he will doubtless make a lot more in speaking fees….
If we had a way for him to express that regret without costing him a seat on the Supreme Court we could use it as a way to reinforce how bad that behavior i
He rather missed that chance when denying it under oath.
I see his has doubled down on his categoric denial.
If we had a way for him to express that regret without costing him a seat on the Supreme Court we could use it as a way to reinforce how bad that behavior i
He rather missed that chance when denying it under oath.
I see his has doubled down on his categoric denial.
I don’t know about this under oath stuff, from whast I’ve read this was not a topic of any hearing public or private. It was released after the hearings ended.
Not that I suspect he would have not denied it under any circumstance,because that certainly wasnt the opportunity.
I don’t know about this under oath stuff, from whast I’ve read this was not a topic of any hearing public or private. It was released after the hearings ended.
Not that I suspect he would have not denied it under any circumstance,because that certainly wasnt the opportunity.
You are right on that point, Marty.
My mistake.
No doubt he will get the opportunity now.
You are right on that point, Marty.
My mistake.
No doubt he will get the opportunity now.
If we had a way for him to express that regret without costing him a seat on the Supreme Court we could use it as a way to reinforce how bad that behavior is.
Just a reminder that we’re talking about a guy who made his political bones by badgering a sitting POTUS about a consensual affair.
It might also be good if there was a way for women to speak candidly about these things without expecting that they will be on the receiving end of a mountain of abuse.
It also strikes me, if we want to reinforce the idea that that kind of entitled drunken behavior is unacceptable, actual consequences – for instance, not being rewarded with a seat on the SCOTUS – is probably the more effective way of doing that.
If all of this mess results in Kavanaugh not being approved, I’m not sure it’s accurate to say it “cost him” a seat on the SCOTUS. It’s not his to gain or lose. It’s a position of great influence and great responsibility, whatever the outcome he should consider himself lucky to have been considered.
The nation doesn’t owe Kavanaugh anything.
If we had a way for him to express that regret without costing him a seat on the Supreme Court we could use it as a way to reinforce how bad that behavior is.
Just a reminder that we’re talking about a guy who made his political bones by badgering a sitting POTUS about a consensual affair.
It might also be good if there was a way for women to speak candidly about these things without expecting that they will be on the receiving end of a mountain of abuse.
It also strikes me, if we want to reinforce the idea that that kind of entitled drunken behavior is unacceptable, actual consequences – for instance, not being rewarded with a seat on the SCOTUS – is probably the more effective way of doing that.
If all of this mess results in Kavanaugh not being approved, I’m not sure it’s accurate to say it “cost him” a seat on the SCOTUS. It’s not his to gain or lose. It’s a position of great influence and great responsibility, whatever the outcome he should consider himself lucky to have been considered.
The nation doesn’t owe Kavanaugh anything.
We can say that Ford’s accusations “cost him” if they result in Kavanaugh getting booted off the Federal bench. Which seems unlikely at this point, but not entirely beyond the bounds of possibility.
We can say that Ford’s accusations “cost him” if they result in Kavanaugh getting booted off the Federal bench. Which seems unlikely at this point, but not entirely beyond the bounds of possibility.
“Just a reminder that we’re talking about a guy who made his political bones by badgering a sitting POTUS about a consensual affair.”
This is a false equivalence by a lot.
He badgered a sitting President about taking advantage of his position to screw an intern in the Oval Office. Not a 17 year old kid with hormones and a sense of entitlement.
And no, I suspect you might have done one or two things before your prefrontal cortex was fully formed you wouldn’t want to be penalized for today.
Yes we do, a fair hearing and the presumption of innocence. Like every other American.
“Just a reminder that we’re talking about a guy who made his political bones by badgering a sitting POTUS about a consensual affair.”
This is a false equivalence by a lot.
He badgered a sitting President about taking advantage of his position to screw an intern in the Oval Office. Not a 17 year old kid with hormones and a sense of entitlement.
And no, I suspect you might have done one or two things before your prefrontal cortex was fully formed you wouldn’t want to be penalized for today.
Yes we do, a fair hearing and the presumption of innocence. Like every other American.
Yes we do, a fair hearing and the presumption of innocence. Like every other American.
It’s not a criminal trial. He’s not looking at jail time. Every other citizen is not owed a seat on the SCOTUS.
Yes we do, a fair hearing and the presumption of innocence. Like every other American.
It’s not a criminal trial. He’s not looking at jail time. Every other citizen is not owed a seat on the SCOTUS.
Yes we do, a fair hearing and the presumption of innocence. Like every other American.
So you’re saying that yes, the Judiciary Committee should wait until they have had a chance to question Ms Ford? (And, presumably, given Judge Kavanaugh a chance to respond under oath to the accusations.)
Yes we do, a fair hearing and the presumption of innocence. Like every other American.
So you’re saying that yes, the Judiciary Committee should wait until they have had a chance to question Ms Ford? (And, presumably, given Judge Kavanaugh a chance to respond under oath to the accusations.)
This is a false equivalence by a lot.
Not claiming equivalence, just pointing out the irony of Kavanaugh running afoul of a claim of sexual bad behavior.
Karma. It’s a thing.
I suspect you might have done one or two things before your prefrontal cortex was fully formed you wouldn’t want to be penalized for today.
(a) I’m not a candidate for the SCOTUS
(b) Even at my stupidest I never assaulted anyone
(c) Were someone to call me out on my youthful and even not-so-youthful idiocies, I imagine and hope that I would take my lumps like a big boy.
Yes we do, a fair hearing and the presumption of innocence
This is not a criminal action. He is not accused of a crime, he is a nominee for the SCOTUS.
As a nominee to the SCOTUS, Kavanaugh is owed a hearing before the Senate Judiciary committee. Not even that, really; per McConnell rules, even the hearing is optional, at the discretion of the Senate.
Best possible outcome IMO: Flake bails on him, he doesn’t get out of committee, Trump sends up another Federalist justice who doesn’t have Kavanaugh’s baggage. The woods are full of Federalist worthies, Kavanaugh is not worth the candle.
Best possible outcome in my dreams: the whole thing gets stonewalled until after the midterms, and the (D)’s flip the Senate.
But I can live with the first option.
This is a false equivalence by a lot.
Not claiming equivalence, just pointing out the irony of Kavanaugh running afoul of a claim of sexual bad behavior.
Karma. It’s a thing.
I suspect you might have done one or two things before your prefrontal cortex was fully formed you wouldn’t want to be penalized for today.
(a) I’m not a candidate for the SCOTUS
(b) Even at my stupidest I never assaulted anyone
(c) Were someone to call me out on my youthful and even not-so-youthful idiocies, I imagine and hope that I would take my lumps like a big boy.
Yes we do, a fair hearing and the presumption of innocence
This is not a criminal action. He is not accused of a crime, he is a nominee for the SCOTUS.
As a nominee to the SCOTUS, Kavanaugh is owed a hearing before the Senate Judiciary committee. Not even that, really; per McConnell rules, even the hearing is optional, at the discretion of the Senate.
Best possible outcome IMO: Flake bails on him, he doesn’t get out of committee, Trump sends up another Federalist justice who doesn’t have Kavanaugh’s baggage. The woods are full of Federalist worthies, Kavanaugh is not worth the candle.
Best possible outcome in my dreams: the whole thing gets stonewalled until after the midterms, and the (D)’s flip the Senate.
But I can live with the first option.
To return, briefly, to the original topic of the thread:
cleek, dr ngo, how you guys making out?
everybody else in the carolinas (or elsewhere) doing OK?
To return, briefly, to the original topic of the thread:
cleek, dr ngo, how you guys making out?
everybody else in the carolinas (or elsewhere) doing OK?
They wouldn’t nominate a judge you wouldn’t find something wrong with russell.
Let’s not pretend.
They wouldn’t nominate a judge you wouldn’t find something wrong with russell.
Let’s not pretend.
They wouldn’t nominate a judge you wouldn’t find something wrong with russell.
Let’s not pretend.
Perhaps that’s because the GOP sucks.
They wouldn’t nominate a judge you wouldn’t find something wrong with russell.
Let’s not pretend.
Perhaps that’s because the GOP sucks.
yep, so do the Jets and the Eagles, but this isn’t a sporting competition.
yep, so do the Jets and the Eagles, but this isn’t a sporting competition.
“Yes, we do, a fair hearing and the presumption of innocence. Like every other American.”
Cripes, the soaring, lofty, unselfaware nonsense.
Merrick Garland probably regrets not engaging in some drunken diddling given that being a good boy no longer has any upside that he might be treated like every other fucking American.
I want Kavanaugh’s fully formed prefrontal cortex as far away from government as possible.
I was against the sniffing around Clinton sexual peccadillos expressly to avoid this ongoing blowback destroying our politics.
Destroy away. Blow it up. Kill American politics once and for all .
republicans made this world and they will suck on it and die.
“Yes, we do, a fair hearing and the presumption of innocence. Like every other American.”
Cripes, the soaring, lofty, unselfaware nonsense.
Merrick Garland probably regrets not engaging in some drunken diddling given that being a good boy no longer has any upside that he might be treated like every other fucking American.
I want Kavanaugh’s fully formed prefrontal cortex as far away from government as possible.
I was against the sniffing around Clinton sexual peccadillos expressly to avoid this ongoing blowback destroying our politics.
Destroy away. Blow it up. Kill American politics once and for all .
republicans made this world and they will suck on it and die.
I think you’ve made someone else’s point rather than yours. If only the stakes were as low as a sporting event, and the suckiness of the GOP wasn’t as big of a problem.
I think you’ve made someone else’s point rather than yours. If only the stakes were as low as a sporting event, and the suckiness of the GOP wasn’t as big of a problem.
They wouldn’t nominate a judge you wouldn’t find something wrong with russell.
It’s always so refreshing to have my mind read for me.
I’ve stated more than once in this thread and elsewhere that I could live with, for example, Kethledge. I pick Kethledge because he was on Trump’s short list, and I have some small knowledge of his resume and personal history.
I would not *like* Kethledge on the SCOTUS, because we don’t share a common point of view on some important things. But I would see no good objection that could be made to his nomination, and I would accept it as the result of having a (R) POTUS.
My assumption, given what I know about Kethledge, is that his opinions would reflect his outlook, but would not be explicitly partisan. Which is what I expect from a SCOTUS justice.
There are, almost certainly, a dozen justices out there in the Federalist pipeline about whom I would have the same opinion.
They wouldn’t nominate a judge you wouldn’t find something wrong with russell.
It’s always so refreshing to have my mind read for me.
I’ve stated more than once in this thread and elsewhere that I could live with, for example, Kethledge. I pick Kethledge because he was on Trump’s short list, and I have some small knowledge of his resume and personal history.
I would not *like* Kethledge on the SCOTUS, because we don’t share a common point of view on some important things. But I would see no good objection that could be made to his nomination, and I would accept it as the result of having a (R) POTUS.
My assumption, given what I know about Kethledge, is that his opinions would reflect his outlook, but would not be explicitly partisan. Which is what I expect from a SCOTUS justice.
There are, almost certainly, a dozen justices out there in the Federalist pipeline about whom I would have the same opinion.
Best possible outcome IMO: Flake bails on him, he doesn’t get out of committee, Trump sends up another Federalist justice who doesn’t have Kavanaugh’s baggage.
Um, no. Apparently the White House sees the accusation as reason to double down:
Which is right in line with Trump’s recommended approach of “Deny, deny, deny” and “never back down because it will make you look weak.”
It might be the smart thing to do, to withdraw the nomination and try with someone with less baggage. But this administration doesn’t incline to things like that.
Best possible outcome IMO: Flake bails on him, he doesn’t get out of committee, Trump sends up another Federalist justice who doesn’t have Kavanaugh’s baggage.
Um, no. Apparently the White House sees the accusation as reason to double down:
Which is right in line with Trump’s recommended approach of “Deny, deny, deny” and “never back down because it will make you look weak.”
It might be the smart thing to do, to withdraw the nomination and try with someone with less baggage. But this administration doesn’t incline to things like that.
Let the delousing begin.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ashleyfeinberg/status/1041516195999088640
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/09/everything-old-eww
Let the delousing begin.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ashleyfeinberg/status/1041516195999088640
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/09/everything-old-eww
Sorry for kicking off the Kavanaugh discussion here (by accident).
In my defence, I did try to move it back to the dedicated thread, q.v.
Sorry for kicking off the Kavanaugh discussion here (by accident).
In my defence, I did try to move it back to the dedicated thread, q.v.
Thanks russell, I stand corrected. We will get to see.
Thanks russell, I stand corrected. We will get to see.
Let’s not pretend that:
1) He, Trump nominated Kavanaugh because He found him open-minded on Roe
2) Kamala Harris and Corey Booker are “ambitious” and Kavanaugh isn’t
3) Kissing his padrone‘s ass on TV shows “judicial temperament”
4) “Reasonable Republicans” will do anything but bow down before He, Trump
5) The Federalist Society is anything but plutocracy’s farm team
–TP
Let’s not pretend that:
1) He, Trump nominated Kavanaugh because He found him open-minded on Roe
2) Kamala Harris and Corey Booker are “ambitious” and Kavanaugh isn’t
3) Kissing his padrone‘s ass on TV shows “judicial temperament”
4) “Reasonable Republicans” will do anything but bow down before He, Trump
5) The Federalist Society is anything but plutocracy’s farm team
–TP
cleek, dr ngo, how you guys making out?
no serious issues to speak of. we got a LOT of rain – 2″ between 6 and 7AM today, as the last of Flo finally pulled away. a couple of medium branches down in the yard. but mostly it was just a miserable rainy weekend, where i live.
well, not entirely miserable. it was also my wedding anniversary. and being trapped home with my wife, the cats, and the plentiful booze we stocked up on was pretty nice.
cleek, dr ngo, how you guys making out?
no serious issues to speak of. we got a LOT of rain – 2″ between 6 and 7AM today, as the last of Flo finally pulled away. a couple of medium branches down in the yard. but mostly it was just a miserable rainy weekend, where i live.
well, not entirely miserable. it was also my wedding anniversary. and being trapped home with my wife, the cats, and the plentiful booze we stocked up on was pretty nice.
Thanks russell, I stand corrected.
All good.
The Federalist Society is anything but plutocracy’s farm team
I do not disagree.
Um, no.
I was merely proposing “best outcome”, not “most likely”.
🙁
no serious issues to speak of.
outstanding
it was also my wedding anniversary.
mazel tov!!
Thanks russell, I stand corrected.
All good.
The Federalist Society is anything but plutocracy’s farm team
I do not disagree.
Um, no.
I was merely proposing “best outcome”, not “most likely”.
🙁
no serious issues to speak of.
outstanding
it was also my wedding anniversary.
mazel tov!!
I thought the Federalist Society was the plutocracies first string.
Everyone else just takes instruction.
I thought the Federalist Society was the plutocracies first string.
Everyone else just takes instruction.
“For the United States, the trend of all land-falling hurricanes has been falling since 1900, as has that of major hurricanes. In the 51 years from 1915, Florida and the Atlantic coast were hit by 19 major hurricanes. In the 51 years to 2016, just seven. In the last 11 years, only two hurricanes greater than category 3 hit the continental USA — a record low since 1900. From 1915 to 1926, 12 hit.”
No, global warming isn’t causing worse hurricanes
“For the United States, the trend of all land-falling hurricanes has been falling since 1900, as has that of major hurricanes. In the 51 years from 1915, Florida and the Atlantic coast were hit by 19 major hurricanes. In the 51 years to 2016, just seven. In the last 11 years, only two hurricanes greater than category 3 hit the continental USA — a record low since 1900. From 1915 to 1926, 12 hit.”
No, global warming isn’t causing worse hurricanes