Dear God Make it Stop, Open Thread

by

by Ugh

Today in what must be the eleventy-billionth article on the subject, the WaPo makes the rugged, overland, sometimes I'm sure dangerous, journey to the restive provinces to find out just why Trump voters voted for Trump and what Trump voters think of Trump now that Trump has been Presidenting.  Farming, lamb processing, and a John Deere hoodie make appearances.

Also:  “I think Trump brought out the fact that — I mean, as crude and callous as he was at times — so many people had been almost discriminated against because they were Republicans and not Democrats that we felt inferior.”

And: “This is my observation, it is not necessarily my belief,” he said as he described their motivations. “Number one, they said minority political people have been well taken care of. Small business and working people have been identified as the source of income to take care of those people.”

And: Bustos knew that workers were losing faith in Clinton during the campaign. “You could just feel it,” she said. “You go into these labor halls and guns would always come up. I don’t care where I [would] go, it would be like the first question. . . . Where’s Hillary stand on guns?”

I give up.

Open thread

810 thoughts on “Dear God Make it Stop, Open Thread”

  1. People’s lives aren’t so great. Trump said he would fix that. Hilary didn’t seem like she cared enough, as far as they could tell.
    So, they voted for Trump.
    There’s also class bias and resentment, and resentment of various kinds of “those people” who are taking our hard-earned stuffs.
    But that’s about it, as far as I can tell.
    Not a very thoughtful approach to decision making, but a lot of people don’t have the time or inclination to spend that much thought on politics.
    I actually do think the (D)’s need to get their sh*t together. At a basic policy level, they have much to offer than the (R)’s. That isn’t getting through.
    IMO the country is being eaten alive by the whole neo-liberal free market government-is-your-enemy project, and I don’t see what’s going to change that.
    I see more pain in our collective future. Which disturbs me, because people appear to be responding to that by voting for a palpable crook like Trump.
    Not a good sign.
    Good luck everyone.

  2. People’s lives aren’t so great. Trump said he would fix that. Hilary didn’t seem like she cared enough, as far as they could tell.
    So, they voted for Trump.
    There’s also class bias and resentment, and resentment of various kinds of “those people” who are taking our hard-earned stuffs.
    But that’s about it, as far as I can tell.
    Not a very thoughtful approach to decision making, but a lot of people don’t have the time or inclination to spend that much thought on politics.
    I actually do think the (D)’s need to get their sh*t together. At a basic policy level, they have much to offer than the (R)’s. That isn’t getting through.
    IMO the country is being eaten alive by the whole neo-liberal free market government-is-your-enemy project, and I don’t see what’s going to change that.
    I see more pain in our collective future. Which disturbs me, because people appear to be responding to that by voting for a palpable crook like Trump.
    Not a good sign.
    Good luck everyone.

  3. and yeah, the stories just seem to write themselves.
    who knew the folks at the WaPo and NYT would have such a deep and prolonged interest in the jeans and flannel crowd?
    if folks in the heartland really want a leg up, they should invest in travel accommodations for visiting reporters from The Big City.
    scenic little B&B’s, maybe an agriturismo. bagels, lattes, and wifi. egg white omelets from free-range local hens. side of ham and grits for the authentic local flavor.
    they’ll clean up.

  4. and yeah, the stories just seem to write themselves.
    who knew the folks at the WaPo and NYT would have such a deep and prolonged interest in the jeans and flannel crowd?
    if folks in the heartland really want a leg up, they should invest in travel accommodations for visiting reporters from The Big City.
    scenic little B&B’s, maybe an agriturismo. bagels, lattes, and wifi. egg white omelets from free-range local hens. side of ham and grits for the authentic local flavor.
    they’ll clean up.

  9. I actually do think the (D)’s need to get their sh*t together. At a basic policy level, they have much to offer than the (R)’s. That isn’t getting through.
    The reason it isn’t getting through is the culture of resentment. Nothing is going to change until that goes out of style. And they’re still resentful even though their people are in three branches of government pursuing more and more outrageously destructive policies.
    Democrats need to get their people out to vote, and overcome the culture of the resentful left, or figure out how to focus that lefty resentment toward the real enemy. They don’t need to appeal to these racist, ignorant nihilists who wallow in their self-pity.

  10. I actually do think the (D)’s need to get their sh*t together. At a basic policy level, they have much to offer than the (R)’s. That isn’t getting through.
    The reason it isn’t getting through is the culture of resentment. Nothing is going to change until that goes out of style. And they’re still resentful even though their people are in three branches of government pursuing more and more outrageously destructive policies.
    Democrats need to get their people out to vote, and overcome the culture of the resentful left, or figure out how to focus that lefty resentment toward the real enemy. They don’t need to appeal to these racist, ignorant nihilists who wallow in their self-pity.

  13. Oh, to really get a perspective on this, I recommend Amartya Sen’s An Uncertain Glory. This is an indepth policy and politics book, as in how do we get the neoliberal hightech winners to support public education rather than charter schools. India has very similar problems to the rest of us.
    Mentioned because there is a geographical element in India, with semi-independent provinces; some progressive and efficient, like Kerala and Tamil Nadu; some urban and neoiberal; and some poor backward and corrupt.
    And overall they elected Modi.
    Or you could look at Abe’s Japan. Or Macron’s France.

  14. Oh, to really get a perspective on this, I recommend Amartya Sen’s An Uncertain Glory. This is an indepth policy and politics book, as in how do we get the neoliberal hightech winners to support public education rather than charter schools. India has very similar problems to the rest of us.
    Mentioned because there is a geographical element in India, with semi-independent provinces; some progressive and efficient, like Kerala and Tamil Nadu; some urban and neoiberal; and some poor backward and corrupt.
    And overall they elected Modi.
    Or you could look at Abe’s Japan. Or Macron’s France.

  15. I watched “Get me Roger Stone” on Netflix recently which goes some way to explain Trump – it’s interesting that the key people putting him in power (Stone / Manafort) have been major players since the Nixon campaign.

  16. I watched “Get me Roger Stone” on Netflix recently which goes some way to explain Trump – it’s interesting that the key people putting him in power (Stone / Manafort) have been major players since the Nixon campaign.

  17. have been major players since the Nixon campaign.
    As I’ve said before, it’s Ike’s fault for not throwing Nixon of the Republican ticket in ’52. Although there still was Goldwater.

  18. have been major players since the Nixon campaign.
    As I’ve said before, it’s Ike’s fault for not throwing Nixon of the Republican ticket in ’52. Although there still was Goldwater.

  19. There’s also class bias and resentment, and resentment of various kinds of “those people” who are taking our hard-earned stuffs.
    I think you are actually right. Just not the way that you mean.
    They were OK with Trump being rich, because he was born that way and claimed to care about them. Hey, it worked with FDR. Only problem is, once in office FDR acted like he did care; Trump not so much.
    I think maybe the trouble they had with Hilary was that she wasn’t born any richer than them. But by working hard, she got rich . . . while they have not. That, coupled with her not wearing her heart on her sleeve convincingly, caused them to resent her.

  20. There’s also class bias and resentment, and resentment of various kinds of “those people” who are taking our hard-earned stuffs.
    I think you are actually right. Just not the way that you mean.
    They were OK with Trump being rich, because he was born that way and claimed to care about them. Hey, it worked with FDR. Only problem is, once in office FDR acted like he did care; Trump not so much.
    I think maybe the trouble they had with Hilary was that she wasn’t born any richer than them. But by working hard, she got rich . . . while they have not. That, coupled with her not wearing her heart on her sleeve convincingly, caused them to resent her.

  21. Oh, the classic explanation is that the WWC has no contact with Trump types anymore save on television. What they hates is those damn buroocrats, administrators, academics, revenooers, inspectors, and technocrats who tell ya they have a better way to run your life now like it. These they encounter with hassles every week.
    HRC.
    But just reading the bad place about Charlotte and its black establishment I have to say that year sure racisms but the jerks don’t just hate the black Democrats because they are black but also because they are Democrats with the Dem policy agenda. I think the reason there is a laser-like focus on the first half is because a lot of liberals are just a little attracted to the Republican economic agenda.

  22. Oh, the classic explanation is that the WWC has no contact with Trump types anymore save on television. What they hates is those damn buroocrats, administrators, academics, revenooers, inspectors, and technocrats who tell ya they have a better way to run your life now like it. These they encounter with hassles every week.
    HRC.
    But just reading the bad place about Charlotte and its black establishment I have to say that year sure racisms but the jerks don’t just hate the black Democrats because they are black but also because they are Democrats with the Dem policy agenda. I think the reason there is a laser-like focus on the first half is because a lot of liberals are just a little attracted to the Republican economic agenda.

  23. cleek: 9/11
    And yet many Americans who lived through 9/11 seem to think the best way to get certain other countries to support our policy goals is to threaten to blow their shit up if they don’t do what we want. Do they remember their own reaction to 9/11? How well did that work for bin Laden?

  24. cleek: 9/11
    And yet many Americans who lived through 9/11 seem to think the best way to get certain other countries to support our policy goals is to threaten to blow their shit up if they don’t do what we want. Do they remember their own reaction to 9/11? How well did that work for bin Laden?

  25. @Dave W. — I think you’re presuming more capacity for introspection and self-examination than is in evidence. In my more discouraged moments I think we must rank right up there as one of the least self-aware nations in the history of the world.
    There are lots of reasons for that. I remember when I first went to Ireland (1979) and the major newspaper had US-centric articles every day. The US loomed over the world. When was the last time the major papers in the US had Ireland-centric headlines…ever?
    Correspondingly, in the minds of a lot of Americans, the US is the blower-up, not the blowee. That’s unthinkable and so need not come into the calculation.

  26. @Dave W. — I think you’re presuming more capacity for introspection and self-examination than is in evidence. In my more discouraged moments I think we must rank right up there as one of the least self-aware nations in the history of the world.
    There are lots of reasons for that. I remember when I first went to Ireland (1979) and the major newspaper had US-centric articles every day. The US loomed over the world. When was the last time the major papers in the US had Ireland-centric headlines…ever?
    Correspondingly, in the minds of a lot of Americans, the US is the blower-up, not the blowee. That’s unthinkable and so need not come into the calculation.

  27. I suspect in a number of countries, some people’s shoulders are perpetually hunched not knowing when the next drone strike will take them out regardless of whether they’re terrorists are not. Who’s the terrorist can depend on your point of view. Drones are pretty terrifying.

  28. I suspect in a number of countries, some people’s shoulders are perpetually hunched not knowing when the next drone strike will take them out regardless of whether they’re terrorists are not. Who’s the terrorist can depend on your point of view. Drones are pretty terrifying.

  29. Do they remember their own reaction to 9/11? How well did that work for bin Laden?
    we’re America.
    we’re exceptional.

  30. Do they remember their own reaction to 9/11? How well did that work for bin Laden?
    we’re America.
    we’re exceptional.

  33. That … caused them to resent her.
    That plus a thirty year campaign of vicious, dishonest propaganda intentionally waged by a handful of wealthy Republicans, and the collusion of the gormless “mainstream” media (fuck you, New York Times), plus Fox News, plus a last-minute micro-targeted disinformation by Russian-funded monkeywrenchers on social media …
    Plus, of course, misogyny.

  34. That … caused them to resent her.
    That plus a thirty year campaign of vicious, dishonest propaganda intentionally waged by a handful of wealthy Republicans, and the collusion of the gormless “mainstream” media (fuck you, New York Times), plus Fox News, plus a last-minute micro-targeted disinformation by Russian-funded monkeywrenchers on social media …
    Plus, of course, misogyny.

  35. The US’s moral high ground is looking a lot like China’s islands in the South China Sea.

  36. The US’s moral high ground is looking a lot like China’s islands in the South China Sea.

  37. Kidnaper in Chief?…
    “A crying toddler calls out for his mother as he is kidnapped by armed agents of the state, who drive away with him in the back of their car. This is the face of Donald Trump’s immigration policy. Even more appalling, it is the face he wants the world to see.”
    Trump’s Official Policy: If You Cross the Border, We’ll Kidnap Your Children: The president hopes that forcibly separating parents from their kids will deter illegal entry.

  38. Kidnaper in Chief?…
    “A crying toddler calls out for his mother as he is kidnapped by armed agents of the state, who drive away with him in the back of their car. This is the face of Donald Trump’s immigration policy. Even more appalling, it is the face he wants the world to see.”
    Trump’s Official Policy: If You Cross the Border, We’ll Kidnap Your Children: The president hopes that forcibly separating parents from their kids will deter illegal entry.

  39. I could have sworn that courts had previously ruled separating children from their parents for illegal-immigration deterrent purposes was illegal and/or unconstitutional.
    More broadly, children are not their parents.

  40. I could have sworn that courts had previously ruled separating children from their parents for illegal-immigration deterrent purposes was illegal and/or unconstitutional.
    More broadly, children are not their parents.

  41. A crying toddler calls out for his mother as he is kidnapped by armed agents of the state
    I have good friends who have been approached by undocumented immigrants, asking if they will take their kids if they are deported.
    We should really just take the Statue of Liberty down at this point. Or replace the torch with a hand with upraised middle finger.

  42. A crying toddler calls out for his mother as he is kidnapped by armed agents of the state
    I have good friends who have been approached by undocumented immigrants, asking if they will take their kids if they are deported.
    We should really just take the Statue of Liberty down at this point. Or replace the torch with a hand with upraised middle finger.

  43. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5/2/1761310/-HHS-officials-say-they-can-t-find-1-500-migrant-kids-they-placed-with-U-S-sponsors
    I need to get my dark radio mirror image webshow up and running ala Limbaugh/Levin/Jones and state plainly the facts that migrant children are being kidnapped by right wing gummint jackbooted thugs at the border and trafficked to child molestation rings in red states where republican politicians and their wealthy business patrons, men and women, gang rape the kids at luxury resorts and then kill them, and process their remains into meat products to be fed to their cannibalistic private school-educated children as one method of reducing the high cost of education, while bypassing troublesome USDA regulations, for the reptilian one percent, overhead being a concern.
    When Mitt Romney say “I like hot dog”, we need to read the small print and examine the contents of his alimentary canal following the reptilian autopsy.
    It’s America. If you say it, especially in the shadows of the dark intellectual web, tens of millions of Americans will believe it.
    Yes, take the Statue of Liberty down and IF mercy is still a thing, which it will not be, when we get done prosecuting and sentencing 70 million plus assholes to the gallows, I would offer mp and his 1000 top ass kissers the opportunity to eat the statue piece by piece, at gunpoint.
    Livestream it on the Food Channel.
    Look at this way, Baron mp will be separated from his parents too, quite soon as a matter of justice.

  44. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5/2/1761310/-HHS-officials-say-they-can-t-find-1-500-migrant-kids-they-placed-with-U-S-sponsors
    I need to get my dark radio mirror image webshow up and running ala Limbaugh/Levin/Jones and state plainly the facts that migrant children are being kidnapped by right wing gummint jackbooted thugs at the border and trafficked to child molestation rings in red states where republican politicians and their wealthy business patrons, men and women, gang rape the kids at luxury resorts and then kill them, and process their remains into meat products to be fed to their cannibalistic private school-educated children as one method of reducing the high cost of education, while bypassing troublesome USDA regulations, for the reptilian one percent, overhead being a concern.
    When Mitt Romney say “I like hot dog”, we need to read the small print and examine the contents of his alimentary canal following the reptilian autopsy.
    It’s America. If you say it, especially in the shadows of the dark intellectual web, tens of millions of Americans will believe it.
    Yes, take the Statue of Liberty down and IF mercy is still a thing, which it will not be, when we get done prosecuting and sentencing 70 million plus assholes to the gallows, I would offer mp and his 1000 top ass kissers the opportunity to eat the statue piece by piece, at gunpoint.
    Livestream it on the Food Channel.
    Look at this way, Baron mp will be separated from his parents too, quite soon as a matter of justice.

  45. We should really just take the Statue of Liberty down at this point.
    Absolutely! After all, it was a gift from France originally. (I believe there’s an identical one in Paris even now.) So it is obviously just part of a dastardly plot by the Europeans to make us more like them (i.e. a bunch of socialists), instead of remaining “real Americans”™ ™.

  46. We should really just take the Statue of Liberty down at this point.
    Absolutely! After all, it was a gift from France originally. (I believe there’s an identical one in Paris even now.) So it is obviously just part of a dastardly plot by the Europeans to make us more like them (i.e. a bunch of socialists), instead of remaining “real Americans”™ ™.

  47. There IS a duplicate SoL statue in Paris, smaller than the one in NYC (by eye; I haven’t measured it). And you can get a lot closer, with almost zero crowds.
    The intro sequence from “Man In The High Castle” is apropos, sad to say.

  48. There IS a duplicate SoL statue in Paris, smaller than the one in NYC (by eye; I haven’t measured it). And you can get a lot closer, with almost zero crowds.
    The intro sequence from “Man In The High Castle” is apropos, sad to say.

  49. maybe kinda sorta off topic –
    Can anyone conjure a guess on how many bricks would have been shat by our conservative fellow-countrymen and -women if Obama, or Bill Clinton, or god forbid Hilary, or anyone else with a (D) after their name, would have opined about getting an “extension” for their time in office?
    I don’t expect any better from Trump. It’s the folks who cheer him on that bug me.
    I don’t mind if people are conservative. I am getting freaking sick and tired of the utter lack of self-awareness.
    IOKIYAR, and bugger that. I’m running out of tolerance for this BS.

  50. maybe kinda sorta off topic –
    Can anyone conjure a guess on how many bricks would have been shat by our conservative fellow-countrymen and -women if Obama, or Bill Clinton, or god forbid Hilary, or anyone else with a (D) after their name, would have opined about getting an “extension” for their time in office?
    I don’t expect any better from Trump. It’s the folks who cheer him on that bug me.
    I don’t mind if people are conservative. I am getting freaking sick and tired of the utter lack of self-awareness.
    IOKIYAR, and bugger that. I’m running out of tolerance for this BS.

  53. I’m running out of tolerance for this BS.
    Basta! says Michael Avennati. I’ve fallen in love with him and Stormy Daniels, both. Who’d a thought.

  54. I’m running out of tolerance for this BS.
    Basta! says Michael Avennati. I’ve fallen in love with him and Stormy Daniels, both. Who’d a thought.

  55. I wonder if newspapers in Trump country ever send reporters to NYC or Boston to find out why we think as we do about Trump and politics in general.

  56. I wonder if newspapers in Trump country ever send reporters to NYC or Boston to find out why we think as we do about Trump and politics in general.

  57. I wonder if newspapers in Trump country ever send reporters to NYC or Boston to find out why we think as we do about Trump and politics in general.
    I’ve read that local newspapers in those parts are suffering. Not sure what that means – I surmise that no one reads the paper. Also, local papers have been taken over by media conglomerates (mostly conservative). People who don’t identify with that ethic have probably missed an opportunity (which may still be there, who knows!). But Trumpsters are largely illiterate, even the billionaires (at least it seems that way).
    So, if your information technology is Fox, right-wing news feeds, Facebook posts by people like you, and social interaction (including right-wing racist churches), what are the odds that you’re going to buck that info?
    There’s a new book that I want to read very soon: Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion, by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove, with an introduction by Rev. [William J.] Barber [II].
    So a lot of people have learned and learned this. But …
    I was brought up Catholic. You are introduced to the Truth: it’s up to you to accept it. These people have no excuse. I’m not judging them as far as the hereafter goes, and I’m absolutely willing to forgive them (given the right set of circumstances), but I’m not cutting them any slack either.

  58. I wonder if newspapers in Trump country ever send reporters to NYC or Boston to find out why we think as we do about Trump and politics in general.
    I’ve read that local newspapers in those parts are suffering. Not sure what that means – I surmise that no one reads the paper. Also, local papers have been taken over by media conglomerates (mostly conservative). People who don’t identify with that ethic have probably missed an opportunity (which may still be there, who knows!). But Trumpsters are largely illiterate, even the billionaires (at least it seems that way).
    So, if your information technology is Fox, right-wing news feeds, Facebook posts by people like you, and social interaction (including right-wing racist churches), what are the odds that you’re going to buck that info?
    There’s a new book that I want to read very soon: Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion, by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove, with an introduction by Rev. [William J.] Barber [II].
    So a lot of people have learned and learned this. But …
    I was brought up Catholic. You are introduced to the Truth: it’s up to you to accept it. These people have no excuse. I’m not judging them as far as the hereafter goes, and I’m absolutely willing to forgive them (given the right set of circumstances), but I’m not cutting them any slack either.

  59. City newspapers across the country hardly have the circulation to support junkets to furrin coastal lands.
    In Denver, now a one paper town, the survivor, the Denver Post, no longer has the staff and resources to even cover local news. The Police Chief resigned recently and the Post didn’t send a reporter to the news conference.
    The conglomerates have “rationalized” journalism to the profit-center bone.
    We’re ripe for fascism. There is nothing standing in the way.
    America is full of shit.

  60. City newspapers across the country hardly have the circulation to support junkets to furrin coastal lands.
    In Denver, now a one paper town, the survivor, the Denver Post, no longer has the staff and resources to even cover local news. The Police Chief resigned recently and the Post didn’t send a reporter to the news conference.
    The conglomerates have “rationalized” journalism to the profit-center bone.
    We’re ripe for fascism. There is nothing standing in the way.
    America is full of shit.

  61. We’re ripe for fascism. There is nothing standing in the way.
    Horse is out of the barn. Question is whether we can rein it in.

  62. We’re ripe for fascism. There is nothing standing in the way.
    Horse is out of the barn. Question is whether we can rein it in.

  65. American conservative vermin have torn the world asunder.
    No, they haven’t.
    If we can provide useful and constructive leadership to the world, some significant part of the world will recognize that and accept our leadership.
    Short of that, if we can present transactional arrangements to the world that is in some way to their benefit, some significant part of the world will enter into those arrangements with us.
    Short of all of the above, the world will just work around us.
    We aren’t the world’s magical sparkle pony. We’re good when we do good, and when we don’t, we aren’t.
    The rest of the world is neither stupid, nor dependent on us for their well-being. If we’re going to be the belligerent loud-mouth bully on the block, they’ll take their bat and ball and find other people to play with.
    Things may get torn asunder, but it won’t be the world, writ large.

  66. American conservative vermin have torn the world asunder.
    No, they haven’t.
    If we can provide useful and constructive leadership to the world, some significant part of the world will recognize that and accept our leadership.
    Short of that, if we can present transactional arrangements to the world that is in some way to their benefit, some significant part of the world will enter into those arrangements with us.
    Short of all of the above, the world will just work around us.
    We aren’t the world’s magical sparkle pony. We’re good when we do good, and when we don’t, we aren’t.
    The rest of the world is neither stupid, nor dependent on us for their well-being. If we’re going to be the belligerent loud-mouth bully on the block, they’ll take their bat and ball and find other people to play with.
    Things may get torn asunder, but it won’t be the world, writ large.

  67. Open thread…thinking of the border police separating parents and kids to Clickbait’s pride and glee. This morning, reading one or two of GBS’s letters over breakfast as usual, I came across this passage from a letter he wrote to the actress Mrs. Patrick Campbell in 1913:

    The trial of the Virgin Mary for “sleeping out” and for being in a gentleman’s stable for an unlawful purpose! Imagine a perfectly realistic modern court, and her witnesses: shepherds, three kings (one a native prince, colored), four archangels, finally, her son. Ending with her Assumption. I could do that. Perhaps I will.

    He never did.

  68. Open thread…thinking of the border police separating parents and kids to Clickbait’s pride and glee. This morning, reading one or two of GBS’s letters over breakfast as usual, I came across this passage from a letter he wrote to the actress Mrs. Patrick Campbell in 1913:

    The trial of the Virgin Mary for “sleeping out” and for being in a gentleman’s stable for an unlawful purpose! Imagine a perfectly realistic modern court, and her witnesses: shepherds, three kings (one a native prince, colored), four archangels, finally, her son. Ending with her Assumption. I could do that. Perhaps I will.

    He never did.

  73. Holy Fncking Shit, Adam Silverman just went to town on her. And he’s usually one of the most restrained of the BJ front-pagers.
    *****
    In other spring Saturday news, I just dug up half a dozen tiny baby maples, possibly the last of the ancient trees that were taken down a couple of years ago. I don’t know where I’m going to put them. Years ago I raised two in a corner of the vegetable garden, and they’re now growing out front, maybe 25 feet tall. But I don’t have a garden anymore, and the owner I sold out to (stupid me) will probably cut them down too one of these years, because they’re not prefect enough.
    Maybe I can get some friends with a new house in the woods to transplant them at their place. Fingers crossed.

  74. Holy Fncking Shit, Adam Silverman just went to town on her. And he’s usually one of the most restrained of the BJ front-pagers.
    *****
    In other spring Saturday news, I just dug up half a dozen tiny baby maples, possibly the last of the ancient trees that were taken down a couple of years ago. I don’t know where I’m going to put them. Years ago I raised two in a corner of the vegetable garden, and they’re now growing out front, maybe 25 feet tall. But I don’t have a garden anymore, and the owner I sold out to (stupid me) will probably cut them down too one of these years, because they’re not prefect enough.
    Maybe I can get some friends with a new house in the woods to transplant them at their place. Fingers crossed.

  75. Maples are grand trees, but they tend to want all the water.
    re: the dark Web – Weiss and others seem to believe that “liberals” are piling on the dark Web folks because they’re conservative.
    that’s not really accurate. and, they’re not all conservative, they’re kind of all over the map.
    folks are pointing and laughing because the dark Web folks are a bunch of self-important gits.
    it ain’t the politics, it’s the vibe,

  76. Maples are grand trees, but they tend to want all the water.
    re: the dark Web – Weiss and others seem to believe that “liberals” are piling on the dark Web folks because they’re conservative.
    that’s not really accurate. and, they’re not all conservative, they’re kind of all over the map.
    folks are pointing and laughing because the dark Web folks are a bunch of self-important gits.
    it ain’t the politics, it’s the vibe,

  77. “that’s not really accurate. and, they’re not all conservative, they’re kind of all over the map.”
    This is correct.
    I don’t believe dark web intellectuals of any stripe should be disallowed by law from adopting children from religious adoption agencies:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/oklahoma-governor-signs-law-allowing-religious-groups-bar-lgbt-adoptions
    I hope those kids up for adoption in Oklahoma are not among the kidnapped and now missing children abducted at the U.S./Mexican border by dark gummint intellectual border agents.
    I also hope any further NRA efforts to legalize no-permit gun carrying in that state includes prohibitions against LGBT human beings carrying no permit weapons onto the grounds of religious adoption agencies or anywhere near conservative republican gummint types in that state as the LGBTers ATTEMPT to adopt children, just to be the safe side.

  78. “that’s not really accurate. and, they’re not all conservative, they’re kind of all over the map.”
    This is correct.
    I don’t believe dark web intellectuals of any stripe should be disallowed by law from adopting children from religious adoption agencies:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/oklahoma-governor-signs-law-allowing-religious-groups-bar-lgbt-adoptions
    I hope those kids up for adoption in Oklahoma are not among the kidnapped and now missing children abducted at the U.S./Mexican border by dark gummint intellectual border agents.
    I also hope any further NRA efforts to legalize no-permit gun carrying in that state includes prohibitions against LGBT human beings carrying no permit weapons onto the grounds of religious adoption agencies or anywhere near conservative republican gummint types in that state as the LGBTers ATTEMPT to adopt children, just to be the safe side.

  81. Maples are grand trees, but they tend to want all the water.
    The better to make maple syrup with……. 😉

  82. Maples are grand trees, but they tend to want all the water.
    The better to make maple syrup with……. 😉

  83. in the spirit of unorthodox views, may i just say… i don’t find Cohen’s wink-wink pseudo-lobbying all that shocking. i’m sure companies like AT&T throw money at powerful politicians (and those politician’s advisors) all day long.
    it’s shady, it’s gross. but it’s lobbying – even if Cohen wasn’t registered as a lobbyist.
    convince me otherwise?

  84. in the spirit of unorthodox views, may i just say… i don’t find Cohen’s wink-wink pseudo-lobbying all that shocking. i’m sure companies like AT&T throw money at powerful politicians (and those politician’s advisors) all day long.
    it’s shady, it’s gross. but it’s lobbying – even if Cohen wasn’t registered as a lobbyist.
    convince me otherwise?

  85. Lobbyists are expected to, you know, lobby. Is there any sign, even a hint of one, that Cohen actually did that. That is, did he ever talk to Trump, or anyone else in government, on behalf of the folks whose money he was taking? Or was he, as seems at least as likely, just another con man, promising but never delivering?

  86. Lobbyists are expected to, you know, lobby. Is there any sign, even a hint of one, that Cohen actually did that. That is, did he ever talk to Trump, or anyone else in government, on behalf of the folks whose money he was taking? Or was he, as seems at least as likely, just another con man, promising but never delivering?

  87. I’m not a lobbyist either, but please send millions of dollars to me and I’ll go through the motions.
    I notice the Sierra Club and Planned Parenthood didn’t give Cohen any money to gain access to mp.

  88. I’m not a lobbyist either, but please send millions of dollars to me and I’ll go through the motions.
    I notice the Sierra Club and Planned Parenthood didn’t give Cohen any money to gain access to mp.

  89. i’m sure companies like AT&T throw money at powerful politicians (and those politician’s advisors) all day long.
    Bribery is exchanging something of value for an official act. In this case, value is money, and official act could be the AT&T – Time Warner approval or the net neutrality decision. I don’t think it matters whether they got what they paid for – it only matters that they were trying to influence an official act. McDonnell was exonerated because the court held that the actions he was being asked to take weren’t official acts. I think this is different.

  90. i’m sure companies like AT&T throw money at powerful politicians (and those politician’s advisors) all day long.
    Bribery is exchanging something of value for an official act. In this case, value is money, and official act could be the AT&T – Time Warner approval or the net neutrality decision. I don’t think it matters whether they got what they paid for – it only matters that they were trying to influence an official act. McDonnell was exonerated because the court held that the actions he was being asked to take weren’t official acts. I think this is different.

  93. Is there any sign, even a hint of one, that Cohen actually did that.
    not yet. i expect there will be, though.
    Bribery is exchanging something of value for an official act.
    but Cohen isn’t an official. and we haven’t seen any evidence that the money got to Trump. i hope we see some. but we don’t have any yet.
    Oh, and lobbyists usually don’t pay hush money on behalf of public officials.
    those were, so far as we know, two separate acts (and Trump hadn’t been elected at the time of the Stormy payment).

  94. Is there any sign, even a hint of one, that Cohen actually did that.
    not yet. i expect there will be, though.
    Bribery is exchanging something of value for an official act.
    but Cohen isn’t an official. and we haven’t seen any evidence that the money got to Trump. i hope we see some. but we don’t have any yet.
    Oh, and lobbyists usually don’t pay hush money on behalf of public officials.
    those were, so far as we know, two separate acts (and Trump hadn’t been elected at the time of the Stormy payment).

  95. but Cohen isn’t an official. and we haven’t seen any evidence that the money got to Trump. i hope we see some. but we don’t have any yet.
    Cohen seems to have acted as Trump’s agent, so payment to him can mean the same thing as payment to Trump. I agree that not all i’s are yet dotted, and they may never be.

  96. but Cohen isn’t an official. and we haven’t seen any evidence that the money got to Trump. i hope we see some. but we don’t have any yet.
    Cohen seems to have acted as Trump’s agent, so payment to him can mean the same thing as payment to Trump. I agree that not all i’s are yet dotted, and they may never be.

  97. Cleek, your faith in Cohen living up to a commitment is touching. But, I suspect, also a touch over optimistic.

  98. Cleek, your faith in Cohen living up to a commitment is touching. But, I suspect, also a touch over optimistic.

  99. “Oh, and lobbyists usually don’t pay hush money on behalf of public officials.”
    I don’t think I believe this as a generalization.

  100. “Oh, and lobbyists usually don’t pay hush money on behalf of public officials.”
    I don’t think I believe this as a generalization.

  101. I don’t think I believe this as a generalization.
    Sometimes it’s good to have at least a tiny bit of evidence for beliefs.

  102. I don’t think I believe this as a generalization.
    Sometimes it’s good to have at least a tiny bit of evidence for beliefs.

  103. By the way, Marty, your boy Trump, who you claimed to disavow early on, is yelling at his cabinet members for not being cruel enough, fast enough, to separate parents from their children at the border. (I’ve had chats with some of these families fleeing horrific violence and direct murder threats.)
    Okay, that’s nice. Keep defending this monster. We’ll all die eventually, and maybe it will be sorted out then.

  104. By the way, Marty, your boy Trump, who you claimed to disavow early on, is yelling at his cabinet members for not being cruel enough, fast enough, to separate parents from their children at the border. (I’ve had chats with some of these families fleeing horrific violence and direct murder threats.)
    Okay, that’s nice. Keep defending this monster. We’ll all die eventually, and maybe it will be sorted out then.

  105. it’s shady, it’s gross. but it’s lobbying – even if Cohen wasn’t registered as a lobbyist.
    the fact that he’s not registered as a lobbyist removes it from the category of lobbying.
    lobbying is protected by the 1st A. it is a form of petitioning.
    paying for influence is not protected by the 1st A. maintaining that distinction is the reason lobbyists are required to register.
    cohen is not a lobbyist, not a quasi-lobbyist. he’s a crony.

  106. it’s shady, it’s gross. but it’s lobbying – even if Cohen wasn’t registered as a lobbyist.
    the fact that he’s not registered as a lobbyist removes it from the category of lobbying.
    lobbying is protected by the 1st A. it is a form of petitioning.
    paying for influence is not protected by the 1st A. maintaining that distinction is the reason lobbyists are required to register.
    cohen is not a lobbyist, not a quasi-lobbyist. he’s a crony.

  109. It’s so brave of him to notice something no one else has.
    Romney goes all dark webby, expressing an opinion never before spoken about the foul, bigoted vermin who infest the length and breadth of the scum political party he has tried and tried again to emulate and appease with his own clumsy appeals to the lowest among them:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/romney-says-religious-bigot-should-not-give-opening-prayer-at-embassy-in-jerusalem
    If Jeffress gets anywhere near that so-called “embassy”, that abomination of a building in Jerusalem, with his Texas-sized hatred, may the Middle East ignite and destroy the world.
    May the flesh of vermin republican right wing in America burn Biblically. Get thee behind me, Republican Satan!
    Die!

  110. It’s so brave of him to notice something no one else has.
    Romney goes all dark webby, expressing an opinion never before spoken about the foul, bigoted vermin who infest the length and breadth of the scum political party he has tried and tried again to emulate and appease with his own clumsy appeals to the lowest among them:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/romney-says-religious-bigot-should-not-give-opening-prayer-at-embassy-in-jerusalem
    If Jeffress gets anywhere near that so-called “embassy”, that abomination of a building in Jerusalem, with his Texas-sized hatred, may the Middle East ignite and destroy the world.
    May the flesh of vermin republican right wing in America burn Biblically. Get thee behind me, Republican Satan!
    Die!

  113. Following in the footsteps of the bullshitters of fake American Christianity who have helped ruin the republican party with their profit-seeking apocalyptic crap, I give you the fake news Tower of Babel:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-trump-staffers-impersonate-each-other-when-they-leak
    Ventriloquists speaking in tongues.
    Cyrus the Great, this FOX News republican mp toadie spews:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-compared-to-cyrus-the-great
    I preferred Cyrus Vance, but merely out of curiosity, I looked up Cyrus the Great on the shadowy dark web to see what became of him:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=how+did+cyrus+the+great+die&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS774US774&oq=how+did+cyrus+the+great+die&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.7896j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
    I didn’t expect such a plainly abrupt ending for his Greatness, but there it is.
    I guess avoiding the military draft via fake news hemorrhoids or anal cysts or a pox of boils amidships, or whatever malady every war-loving white republican fuck in this land used to let a black guy go ahead of them just that one time into the meat grinder of battle, didn’t quite work out for Cyrus I.

  114. Following in the footsteps of the bullshitters of fake American Christianity who have helped ruin the republican party with their profit-seeking apocalyptic crap, I give you the fake news Tower of Babel:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-trump-staffers-impersonate-each-other-when-they-leak
    Ventriloquists speaking in tongues.
    Cyrus the Great, this FOX News republican mp toadie spews:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-compared-to-cyrus-the-great
    I preferred Cyrus Vance, but merely out of curiosity, I looked up Cyrus the Great on the shadowy dark web to see what became of him:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=how+did+cyrus+the+great+die&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS774US774&oq=how+did+cyrus+the+great+die&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.7896j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
    I didn’t expect such a plainly abrupt ending for his Greatness, but there it is.
    I guess avoiding the military draft via fake news hemorrhoids or anal cysts or a pox of boils amidships, or whatever malady every war-loving white republican fuck in this land used to let a black guy go ahead of them just that one time into the meat grinder of battle, didn’t quite work out for Cyrus I.

  117. What is it about pigfucking America that causes illegal immigrant scum from shitholes to become blonde, elitist, privileged, conservative Aryan assholes within a generation or three?
    I mean, besides what only what their Jamaican and Korean hairdressers know for sure.
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/05/keep-out-this-means-you-by-bloggersrus.html
    If I was a dark webster, the New York Times would bring me out of the shadows for these comments and proclaim me courageous, repressed and deserving of six-figure payouts for my victim putuponedness.
    I’m a putuponapuss.
    As it is, every time I tell the truth, I create another Nazi.

  118. What is it about pigfucking America that causes illegal immigrant scum from shitholes to become blonde, elitist, privileged, conservative Aryan assholes within a generation or three?
    I mean, besides what only what their Jamaican and Korean hairdressers know for sure.
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/05/keep-out-this-means-you-by-bloggersrus.html
    If I was a dark webster, the New York Times would bring me out of the shadows for these comments and proclaim me courageous, repressed and deserving of six-figure payouts for my victim putuponedness.
    I’m a putuponapuss.
    As it is, every time I tell the truth, I create another Nazi.

  121. https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/05/14/white-evangelicals-celebrate-opening-of-us-embassy-in-jerusalem/
    I’m trying to put myself in Sheldon Adelson’s shoes.
    Putting aside the initial task of shopping for odor-eaters, do I convert to Christianity first, under threats of being burned to death by Reverend Jeffress and his crusaders, or do I first bring the right Reverend in as financial partner, with mp and sons enterprises, in my scheme to have sacred mosques condemned and razed in Jerusalem to make way for casinos.
    It’s so complicated navigating among the many conflicting, self-dealing, and murderous interests of the worldwide conservative movement.

  122. https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/05/14/white-evangelicals-celebrate-opening-of-us-embassy-in-jerusalem/
    I’m trying to put myself in Sheldon Adelson’s shoes.
    Putting aside the initial task of shopping for odor-eaters, do I convert to Christianity first, under threats of being burned to death by Reverend Jeffress and his crusaders, or do I first bring the right Reverend in as financial partner, with mp and sons enterprises, in my scheme to have sacred mosques condemned and razed in Jerusalem to make way for casinos.
    It’s so complicated navigating among the many conflicting, self-dealing, and murderous interests of the worldwide conservative movement.

  125. Have you ever noticed how seldom today’s conservative Christians mention Jesus going after the money-changers in the temple (John 2:13-16)? But then, they don’t seem to mention the Eye of the Needle (Matthew 19:23-25:26, Mark 10:24-15:35, Luke 18:24-23:26) all that much either.

  126. Have you ever noticed how seldom today’s conservative Christians mention Jesus going after the money-changers in the temple (John 2:13-16)? But then, they don’t seem to mention the Eye of the Needle (Matthew 19:23-25:26, Mark 10:24-15:35, Luke 18:24-23:26) all that much either.

  127. “For those convinced that I’m the only sane Republican left, …”
    I’m not sure any of your fellow republican lurkers here are convinced of your sanity. 😉
    The Congresswoman sounds like a pragmatist, or as a right-winger might say, a RINO, or worse, a liberal.
    She’s sane, because the electorate in her district are sane.
    In the setting of THAT particular race in THAT particular district in THAT particular state, her Democratic opponent sounds like a shrill piece of work, to be avoided.
    However, set that race down in a red district in a red state and watch the Congresswoman avoid RINOhood at all costs by embracing all manner of republican racism, poor-stomping, foreign carpet-bombing, and gay and birth control bashing … and maybe … maybe pull off a primary win against a right wing troglodyte sans trousers.
    Then her Democratic opponent could repeat the same calumnies and sound like Cyrus Vance the Great.

  128. “For those convinced that I’m the only sane Republican left, …”
    I’m not sure any of your fellow republican lurkers here are convinced of your sanity. 😉
    The Congresswoman sounds like a pragmatist, or as a right-winger might say, a RINO, or worse, a liberal.
    She’s sane, because the electorate in her district are sane.
    In the setting of THAT particular race in THAT particular district in THAT particular state, her Democratic opponent sounds like a shrill piece of work, to be avoided.
    However, set that race down in a red district in a red state and watch the Congresswoman avoid RINOhood at all costs by embracing all manner of republican racism, poor-stomping, foreign carpet-bombing, and gay and birth control bashing … and maybe … maybe pull off a primary win against a right wing troglodyte sans trousers.
    Then her Democratic opponent could repeat the same calumnies and sound like Cyrus Vance the Great.

  129. For those convinced that I’m the only sane Republican left, allow me to present this….
    Granted, examples are thin on the ground at the national level. But closer to the ground, there are more than you might think.
    Under the ground, even more examples. I think maybe the count is working toward the goal of making more.
    It’s a sure-fire plan, I must say.

  130. For those convinced that I’m the only sane Republican left, allow me to present this….
    Granted, examples are thin on the ground at the national level. But closer to the ground, there are more than you might think.
    Under the ground, even more examples. I think maybe the count is working toward the goal of making more.
    It’s a sure-fire plan, I must say.

  131. https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/trump-picks-bigot-pastor-claims-jews-going-hell-lead-prayer-new-jerusalem-embassy/
    We don’t have Ambassadors appointed to dozens of countries around the world, but that guy, that fake Christian high marginal tax rate insect, is representing all of us to the world, in hateful prayer.
    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/goper-busted-tape-fantasizing-terrorism-one-terrorist-attack-will-candidate/
    Those terrorist attacks leading into the midterms next Fall?
    The least the White House could do is leak the plans, or is the candidate in fact leaking them in the link, hmmm, so innocent but duped conservative voters know what locations to avoid as they make their way to the polls in one piece so fascism can be consolidated over the two years leading up to mp’s re-election in 2020 and every fours years afterward, his preserved reliquaried corpse sitting upright in circa 2044 Cabinet meetings as his pigshit republican cult worships him.

  132. https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/trump-picks-bigot-pastor-claims-jews-going-hell-lead-prayer-new-jerusalem-embassy/
    We don’t have Ambassadors appointed to dozens of countries around the world, but that guy, that fake Christian high marginal tax rate insect, is representing all of us to the world, in hateful prayer.
    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/goper-busted-tape-fantasizing-terrorism-one-terrorist-attack-will-candidate/
    Those terrorist attacks leading into the midterms next Fall?
    The least the White House could do is leak the plans, or is the candidate in fact leaking them in the link, hmmm, so innocent but duped conservative voters know what locations to avoid as they make their way to the polls in one piece so fascism can be consolidated over the two years leading up to mp’s re-election in 2020 and every fours years afterward, his preserved reliquaried corpse sitting upright in circa 2044 Cabinet meetings as his pigshit republican cult worships him.

  135. Ben Shapiro (who dat?) takes the dark web sock out of his mouth, makes twit noises:
    https://www.dailywire.com/news/30588/ben-shapiro-triggers-feminists-mothers-day-tweet-james-barrett?tm_medium=referral&utm_source=idealmedia&utm_campaign=dailywire.com&utm_term=68883&utm_content=1
    He was soon after picked up by ICE, at Hillary’s discretion, on a public street, his daughter hustled off in a separate vehicle to a dark web republican sex resort for “adoption”, and mis-identified as an immigrant Palestinian DREAMER, given his vaguely tribal swarth, described as a marker on Pathway To Victory Online, but he quickly explained he was a REAMER, that’s R-E-A-M-E-R of Liberal pieties and orthodox asshole and was released to be victimized again and paid a pretty penny to do so.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reamer
    He’s just a Tool.

  136. Ben Shapiro (who dat?) takes the dark web sock out of his mouth, makes twit noises:
    https://www.dailywire.com/news/30588/ben-shapiro-triggers-feminists-mothers-day-tweet-james-barrett?tm_medium=referral&utm_source=idealmedia&utm_campaign=dailywire.com&utm_term=68883&utm_content=1
    He was soon after picked up by ICE, at Hillary’s discretion, on a public street, his daughter hustled off in a separate vehicle to a dark web republican sex resort for “adoption”, and mis-identified as an immigrant Palestinian DREAMER, given his vaguely tribal swarth, described as a marker on Pathway To Victory Online, but he quickly explained he was a REAMER, that’s R-E-A-M-E-R of Liberal pieties and orthodox asshole and was released to be victimized again and paid a pretty penny to do so.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reamer
    He’s just a Tool.

  139. A Tweet from @realDonaldTrump today:

    President Xi of China, and I, are working together to give massive Chinese phone company, ZTE, a way to get back into business, fast. Too many jobs in China lost. Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!

    Hey, why should we care about the sanctions that we just implemented against them for breaking our sanctions about Iran? (Save that kind of thing for punishing our allies.) Why should we care that the Chinese government is suspected of using its ownership of ZTE to put cybersecurity loopholes into their phones?
    Let’s hear it for saving Chinese jobs! America First!

  140. A Tweet from @realDonaldTrump today:

    President Xi of China, and I, are working together to give massive Chinese phone company, ZTE, a way to get back into business, fast. Too many jobs in China lost. Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!

    Hey, why should we care about the sanctions that we just implemented against them for breaking our sanctions about Iran? (Save that kind of thing for punishing our allies.) Why should we care that the Chinese government is suspected of using its ownership of ZTE to put cybersecurity loopholes into their phones?
    Let’s hear it for saving Chinese jobs! America First!

  141. Not just Chinese jobs. Chinese manufacturing jobs. Chinese high-tech manufacturing jobs.
    No matter. He, Trump knows where to draw the line: notice that He is not promoting Chinese coal mining jobs.
    –TP

  142. Not just Chinese jobs. Chinese manufacturing jobs. Chinese high-tech manufacturing jobs.
    No matter. He, Trump knows where to draw the line: notice that He is not promoting Chinese coal mining jobs.
    –TP

  145. This comment is not only on the wrong thread. It’s on the wrong blog. I’m depositing it here in case the American Conservative’s “moderation” censure shuts me the FU on a Rod Dreher thread, dark and web-footed as I am.
    ‘“I actually do not care that religious leaders delivering anodyne prayers at public events may believe that my own particular religious convictions may lead me to hell — as long as they don’t lift a finger against me and my co-religionists to send us there prematurely.”
    (That’s a Dreher quote)
    Well, every pogrom in history, regardless of religious or cultural origin, even secular atheist, was prefaced repeatedly by some faith, somewhere, delivering anodyne prayers in public charging some group somewhere else with convictions that may lead them to Hell.
    It’s not surprising that eventually what follows is that the thick, ordinary, and literal-minded among the worshipers (they won’t be poets who mine metaphor like Dante) get it into their heads that maybe a premature Hell in the here and now for the Other is precisely what their God or the Gods have in mind.
    Maybe stop the first instance of praying for it, anodynly or not, all around …yes, an ecumenical gathering of the world’s religious leaders from which a clear statement emerges that no one knows, no human religion can predict squat about the afterlife, should there be one, and its rewards and punishments, and that why don’t we just agree that Hell and the Other who might go there will not be alluded to in worship.
    For all we know everyone gets a cookie or a Little League trophy for merely participating in this mysterious life.
    Let God, in its infinite variations and masks, deal with it. No doubt we will be surprised who ends up in Hell, should it exist, without the premature guessing.
    If you think that someday, if and when the Benedict Option is adopted far and wide, that some dyspeptic Benedict Option variant will not become radicalized by what you believe are repeated anodyne prayers in Benedict Option houses of worship about how wrong and maybe damned the rest of us outside the option are, and who might want to advance the time of our punishment to the here and now, then your hypocrisy, as evenly distributed as it is throughout the population like the nitrogen in potatoes, is not the problem.
    There’s something else wrong.’
    from this post:
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/mitt-romney-really-mormon-jerusalem-embassy/

  146. This comment is not only on the wrong thread. It’s on the wrong blog. I’m depositing it here in case the American Conservative’s “moderation” censure shuts me the FU on a Rod Dreher thread, dark and web-footed as I am.
    ‘“I actually do not care that religious leaders delivering anodyne prayers at public events may believe that my own particular religious convictions may lead me to hell — as long as they don’t lift a finger against me and my co-religionists to send us there prematurely.”
    (That’s a Dreher quote)
    Well, every pogrom in history, regardless of religious or cultural origin, even secular atheist, was prefaced repeatedly by some faith, somewhere, delivering anodyne prayers in public charging some group somewhere else with convictions that may lead them to Hell.
    It’s not surprising that eventually what follows is that the thick, ordinary, and literal-minded among the worshipers (they won’t be poets who mine metaphor like Dante) get it into their heads that maybe a premature Hell in the here and now for the Other is precisely what their God or the Gods have in mind.
    Maybe stop the first instance of praying for it, anodynly or not, all around …yes, an ecumenical gathering of the world’s religious leaders from which a clear statement emerges that no one knows, no human religion can predict squat about the afterlife, should there be one, and its rewards and punishments, and that why don’t we just agree that Hell and the Other who might go there will not be alluded to in worship.
    For all we know everyone gets a cookie or a Little League trophy for merely participating in this mysterious life.
    Let God, in its infinite variations and masks, deal with it. No doubt we will be surprised who ends up in Hell, should it exist, without the premature guessing.
    If you think that someday, if and when the Benedict Option is adopted far and wide, that some dyspeptic Benedict Option variant will not become radicalized by what you believe are repeated anodyne prayers in Benedict Option houses of worship about how wrong and maybe damned the rest of us outside the option are, and who might want to advance the time of our punishment to the here and now, then your hypocrisy, as evenly distributed as it is throughout the population like the nitrogen in potatoes, is not the problem.
    There’s something else wrong.’
    from this post:
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/mitt-romney-really-mormon-jerusalem-embassy/

  147. Granted, examples are thin on the ground at the national level. But closer to the ground, there are more than you might think.
    I’ll concede that there are some sane Republicans in state/local positions here in Colorado (also some that are insane*). But not enough, who are consistent enough, that I’m willing to take a chance on them any more. The last few I voted for some years back, at some point, toed the line and supported the growing insanity in Washington.
    * To be honest, the problem appears to be more that they’re caught in a time warp than anything. They still think of Colorado as a small population poor rural state. Not a medium population high income well educated state whose GDP depends far more on finance and software and other tech than it does on mining or agriculture.

  148. Granted, examples are thin on the ground at the national level. But closer to the ground, there are more than you might think.
    I’ll concede that there are some sane Republicans in state/local positions here in Colorado (also some that are insane*). But not enough, who are consistent enough, that I’m willing to take a chance on them any more. The last few I voted for some years back, at some point, toed the line and supported the growing insanity in Washington.
    * To be honest, the problem appears to be more that they’re caught in a time warp than anything. They still think of Colorado as a small population poor rural state. Not a medium population high income well educated state whose GDP depends far more on finance and software and other tech than it does on mining or agriculture.

  149. A new dawn is arising. How many republicans will be shot by firing squad … at it:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5/14/1764303/-Former-Obama-aide-speechless-at-Trump-s-autocratic-power-grab-on-U-S-sanction-policy
    I’m telling ya, all Kim Jong-un is in it for is that world wide Mar-a-Lago exclusive membership card and hookups with American pornstars.
    The Clinton Foundation is a lemonade stand compared to the worldwide conservative republican
    criminal syndicate.

  150. A new dawn is arising. How many republicans will be shot by firing squad … at it:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5/14/1764303/-Former-Obama-aide-speechless-at-Trump-s-autocratic-power-grab-on-U-S-sanction-policy
    I’m telling ya, all Kim Jong-un is in it for is that world wide Mar-a-Lago exclusive membership card and hookups with American pornstars.
    The Clinton Foundation is a lemonade stand compared to the worldwide conservative republican
    criminal syndicate.

  151. It’s not surprising that eventually what follows is that the thick, ordinary, and literal-minded among the worshipers (they won’t be poets who mine metaphor like Dante) get it into their heads that maybe a premature Hell in the here and now for the Other is precisely what their God or the Gods have in mind.
    No, it’s not. And there is another angle.
    “Look, if you convert to my particular religion you will save yourself from eternal torment. Therefore, even though you are reluctant, I am going to do you the enormous favor of torturing you util you convert, or doing you various physical and other harms unless you do.”
    The notion that there exists a just and loving divine being who is happy to condemn non-believers to Hell is so irrational that it is hard to understand how anyone could take it seriously.

  152. It’s not surprising that eventually what follows is that the thick, ordinary, and literal-minded among the worshipers (they won’t be poets who mine metaphor like Dante) get it into their heads that maybe a premature Hell in the here and now for the Other is precisely what their God or the Gods have in mind.
    No, it’s not. And there is another angle.
    “Look, if you convert to my particular religion you will save yourself from eternal torment. Therefore, even though you are reluctant, I am going to do you the enormous favor of torturing you util you convert, or doing you various physical and other harms unless you do.”
    The notion that there exists a just and loving divine being who is happy to condemn non-believers to Hell is so irrational that it is hard to understand how anyone could take it seriously.

  157. The notion that there exists a just and loving divine being who is happy to condemn non-believers to Hell is so irrational that it is hard to understand how anyone could take it seriously.
    Ditto the notion that there exists an omniscient and omnipotent being who is content to let any old bozo represent him/herself as the inerrant interpreter of His Word.
    During the many gay rights/marriage referenda in Maine, I used to marvel at how many people were convinced that the Bible was the inerrant Word of God, and they and only they knew the correct interpretation. Once there was just one Pope, and that led to some problems. I’m not sure several million popes constitutes an improvement.

  158. The notion that there exists a just and loving divine being who is happy to condemn non-believers to Hell is so irrational that it is hard to understand how anyone could take it seriously.
    Ditto the notion that there exists an omniscient and omnipotent being who is content to let any old bozo represent him/herself as the inerrant interpreter of His Word.
    During the many gay rights/marriage referenda in Maine, I used to marvel at how many people were convinced that the Bible was the inerrant Word of God, and they and only they knew the correct interpretation. Once there was just one Pope, and that led to some problems. I’m not sure several million popes constitutes an improvement.

  159. The comment made it through the “moderation”, so Dreher yoyos back into the the middle of the pack of aggravations for me.
    He’s a lessor fish to fry when the fish fry gets underway.
    I don’t expect cake from him, however, even though I wouldn’t be disqualified under his rules for receiving cake.
    I don’t accept cake unless everyone else at the table gets a piece of the pie.
    Now I’ve made myself hungry.

  160. The comment made it through the “moderation”, so Dreher yoyos back into the the middle of the pack of aggravations for me.
    He’s a lessor fish to fry when the fish fry gets underway.
    I don’t expect cake from him, however, even though I wouldn’t be disqualified under his rules for receiving cake.
    I don’t accept cake unless everyone else at the table gets a piece of the pie.
    Now I’ve made myself hungry.

  161. Maps are just one tool.
    Myself, I’m more curious about the narrative the WaPo (and NYTimes, for that matter) are trying to tell that has them returning over and over again to the same region: northern Appalachia and across the extended Rust Belt. The story I think they’re pushing is that there’s a certain type of ruralia that voted for Trump this time, that the Trump thing is a new trend, that it can be reversed and the Dems reclaim political power in that part of the country.
    It’s a ruralia that only appears across that limited area: lots of small towns, lots of white-owned small farms, lots of small cities with old shuttered manufactories. Rarer in the South, non-existent across the western half of the 48 states occupied by the Great Plains and West. I’ve occasionally described it as the NE urban corridor’s idea of what rural America is like.
    The Republican trend there isn’t new: look at the IA/MN/WI trends in state legislature control, governors, and Congressional delegations. MI/PA too, where the “blue wall” also failed. Trump may have pushed it to a tipping point sooner, but it was already getting close. The trend may have a glitch this year, but I don’t think it’s going to reverse for long.
    I think I even understand why those papers ignore where the trend favors the Dems regaining control. In 2016, in the West, the Dems went +6 using my scoring: +1 for every governor, Congressional seat, and legislative chamber flipped. None of that included the coastal states CA/OR/WA. The West could go as high as another +10 this year, although I don’t expect that much. The West went for Clinton 98-30, more Clinton EC votes than any other Census Bureau region. If you split the country in four regions my way, expanding the CB’s Northeast to include the rest of the NE urban corridor states, the Northeast produced only six more EC votes than the West. I think the WaPo and NYTimes are terrified of the West. They don’t understand it; it’s a whole ‘nother country as far as they’re concerned.

  162. Maps are just one tool.
    Myself, I’m more curious about the narrative the WaPo (and NYTimes, for that matter) are trying to tell that has them returning over and over again to the same region: northern Appalachia and across the extended Rust Belt. The story I think they’re pushing is that there’s a certain type of ruralia that voted for Trump this time, that the Trump thing is a new trend, that it can be reversed and the Dems reclaim political power in that part of the country.
    It’s a ruralia that only appears across that limited area: lots of small towns, lots of white-owned small farms, lots of small cities with old shuttered manufactories. Rarer in the South, non-existent across the western half of the 48 states occupied by the Great Plains and West. I’ve occasionally described it as the NE urban corridor’s idea of what rural America is like.
    The Republican trend there isn’t new: look at the IA/MN/WI trends in state legislature control, governors, and Congressional delegations. MI/PA too, where the “blue wall” also failed. Trump may have pushed it to a tipping point sooner, but it was already getting close. The trend may have a glitch this year, but I don’t think it’s going to reverse for long.
    I think I even understand why those papers ignore where the trend favors the Dems regaining control. In 2016, in the West, the Dems went +6 using my scoring: +1 for every governor, Congressional seat, and legislative chamber flipped. None of that included the coastal states CA/OR/WA. The West could go as high as another +10 this year, although I don’t expect that much. The West went for Clinton 98-30, more Clinton EC votes than any other Census Bureau region. If you split the country in four regions my way, expanding the CB’s Northeast to include the rest of the NE urban corridor states, the Northeast produced only six more EC votes than the West. I think the WaPo and NYTimes are terrified of the West. They don’t understand it; it’s a whole ‘nother country as far as they’re concerned.

  163. I do think there’s something to be said for expanding horizons a bit. Maybe look at places like Arizona. Actually, I believe James Fallow has a new book out which does look at a much broader cross section of the population outside the major urban areas. Perhaps those WaPo and NYT writers will read it and learn something.

  164. I do think there’s something to be said for expanding horizons a bit. Maybe look at places like Arizona. Actually, I believe James Fallow has a new book out which does look at a much broader cross section of the population outside the major urban areas. Perhaps those WaPo and NYT writers will read it and learn something.

  165. During the many gay rights/marriage referenda in Maine, I used to marvel at how many people were convinced that the Bible was the inerrant Word of God, and they and only they knew the correct interpretation.
    and God’s top priorities seem to change from year to year, depending on what the GOP thinks will motivate its base.
    SO WEIRD!

  166. During the many gay rights/marriage referenda in Maine, I used to marvel at how many people were convinced that the Bible was the inerrant Word of God, and they and only they knew the correct interpretation.
    and God’s top priorities seem to change from year to year, depending on what the GOP thinks will motivate its base.
    SO WEIRD!

  167. I’ve occasionally described it as the NE urban corridor’s idea of what rural America is like.
    as a life-long denizen of the dreaded NE urban corridor, i’d say we NE urban correadors have a variety of understandings of what “rural America” looks like.
    we even have our very own rural America, just a hop skip and a jump away.
    i sometimes wonder what “rural America’s” idea of the “NE urban corridor” is.

  168. I’ve occasionally described it as the NE urban corridor’s idea of what rural America is like.
    as a life-long denizen of the dreaded NE urban corridor, i’d say we NE urban correadors have a variety of understandings of what “rural America” looks like.
    we even have our very own rural America, just a hop skip and a jump away.
    i sometimes wonder what “rural America’s” idea of the “NE urban corridor” is.


  169. we even have our very own rural America, just a hop skip and a jump away.
    For example (from wikipedia):

    Maine’s 2nd congressional district is a congressional district in the U.S. state of Maine. Covering 27,326 square miles (70,770 km2), it comprises nearly 80% of the state’s total land area. It is the largest district east of the Mississippi River and the 24th-largest overall. It is the second-most rural district in the United States, with 72.11% of its population in rural areas, behind only Kentucky’s 5th congressional district.[2]

    The state as a whole ranks 38th among the 50 states in population density, at 43/sq.mi. (cf. Colorado at 37th with 52/sq.mi.). Also from wikipedia.


  170. we even have our very own rural America, just a hop skip and a jump away.
    For example (from wikipedia):

    Maine’s 2nd congressional district is a congressional district in the U.S. state of Maine. Covering 27,326 square miles (70,770 km2), it comprises nearly 80% of the state’s total land area. It is the largest district east of the Mississippi River and the 24th-largest overall. It is the second-most rural district in the United States, with 72.11% of its population in rural areas, behind only Kentucky’s 5th congressional district.[2]

    The state as a whole ranks 38th among the 50 states in population density, at 43/sq.mi. (cf. Colorado at 37th with 52/sq.mi.). Also from wikipedia.

  173. cleek: … God’s top priorities seem to change from year to year …
    This year — or at any rate, today — God’s priority seems to be real estate.
    I have hopes, myself, that the heathen Chinese will someday buy every square inch of Jerusalem and turn it into a Confucian theme park. They can afford to pay top dollar, or shekel, or dinar, or any other currency the self-styled leaders of the Abrahamic faiths care to pocket. Whatever else you can say about China, one thing it’s got going for it is that it never fell prey to the notion that Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah created the universe and only bothered to tell some Middle Eastern shepherds about it — and give all of them a deed to the same “Holy” Land while He was about it.
    –TP

  174. cleek: … God’s top priorities seem to change from year to year …
    This year — or at any rate, today — God’s priority seems to be real estate.
    I have hopes, myself, that the heathen Chinese will someday buy every square inch of Jerusalem and turn it into a Confucian theme park. They can afford to pay top dollar, or shekel, or dinar, or any other currency the self-styled leaders of the Abrahamic faiths care to pocket. Whatever else you can say about China, one thing it’s got going for it is that it never fell prey to the notion that Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah created the universe and only bothered to tell some Middle Eastern shepherds about it — and give all of them a deed to the same “Holy” Land while He was about it.
    –TP

  175. What pisses me off about the “poor us Democrats are mean to us” line is that it simply is not true. Democrats do not have a propaganda outlet that pretends to be news and spends 24/ smearing anyone who is not a Democrat with emphasis on mocking rural voters. Democrats do not have an array of “pundits” commentators, speakers, blogs, web “news” sites dedicated to mocking rural voters and promoting demeaning memes about them. The claims the the mean old Dems are mocking the rural or working class white voter comes from the R propaganda machine: the lie about so-called urban elites.
    There no reason why white people in small towns or working class neighborhoods should feel any more left out or ignored than anyone else. In fact they have a lot less to claim of than the people of Flint or Detriot or the people of Puerto Rico or anyone who needs disability o Food Stamps…and Midwestern R voters have nothing to complain of at all since their life style is based on tax dollars paid to them by blue state voters.
    I think that Democrats running for office in white working class areas need to be strongly pro-union pri federal funding for infrastrcuture and in other ways teach the voters the relationship between their standard of living and regressive Republican policies and positive Democratic alternatives. But privately the fact remains that the only reason all those white people feel left behind is because they believe they are endowed by their creator with seats at the front of the bus and can’t tolerate sharing and dont believe in making the bus bigger if it means benefiting anyone but them.

  176. What pisses me off about the “poor us Democrats are mean to us” line is that it simply is not true. Democrats do not have a propaganda outlet that pretends to be news and spends 24/ smearing anyone who is not a Democrat with emphasis on mocking rural voters. Democrats do not have an array of “pundits” commentators, speakers, blogs, web “news” sites dedicated to mocking rural voters and promoting demeaning memes about them. The claims the the mean old Dems are mocking the rural or working class white voter comes from the R propaganda machine: the lie about so-called urban elites.
    There no reason why white people in small towns or working class neighborhoods should feel any more left out or ignored than anyone else. In fact they have a lot less to claim of than the people of Flint or Detriot or the people of Puerto Rico or anyone who needs disability o Food Stamps…and Midwestern R voters have nothing to complain of at all since their life style is based on tax dollars paid to them by blue state voters.
    I think that Democrats running for office in white working class areas need to be strongly pro-union pri federal funding for infrastrcuture and in other ways teach the voters the relationship between their standard of living and regressive Republican policies and positive Democratic alternatives. But privately the fact remains that the only reason all those white people feel left behind is because they believe they are endowed by their creator with seats at the front of the bus and can’t tolerate sharing and dont believe in making the bus bigger if it means benefiting anyone but them.

  179. we got our own rust belt up here in the NE corridor, too. maybe the original one, fwiw.
    we have immigrants, and federal interference into traditional ways of making a living from the land. or, actually, sea.
    we have opioid addicts, and income inequality. we have juridictional conflicts with native americans.
    we have long-forgotten communities that have seen better days, and which are struggling to hold on.
    you all have bigger mountains, out there in the west, and less water. more mining, we don’t do all that much of that anymore.
    could be your weather is better, other than may and september.
    other than that, what’s your issue?
    so maybe get over the whole “NE urban corridor” thing. you got cities, too, what’s the big deal.

  180. we got our own rust belt up here in the NE corridor, too. maybe the original one, fwiw.
    we have immigrants, and federal interference into traditional ways of making a living from the land. or, actually, sea.
    we have opioid addicts, and income inequality. we have juridictional conflicts with native americans.
    we have long-forgotten communities that have seen better days, and which are struggling to hold on.
    you all have bigger mountains, out there in the west, and less water. more mining, we don’t do all that much of that anymore.
    could be your weather is better, other than may and september.
    other than that, what’s your issue?
    so maybe get over the whole “NE urban corridor” thing. you got cities, too, what’s the big deal.

  181. regarding the Jerusalem embassy:
    anyone with half a brain knew it was an inflammatory move, and that people would end up dead.
    Trump did it anyway. whether to throw red meat to his base, or suck up to adelson, or just to flip the bird to everyone who told him it was a bad move. who knows what goes through his head.
    it’s gonna be a mess, because that is how he rolls.

  182. regarding the Jerusalem embassy:
    anyone with half a brain knew it was an inflammatory move, and that people would end up dead.
    Trump did it anyway. whether to throw red meat to his base, or suck up to adelson, or just to flip the bird to everyone who told him it was a bad move. who knows what goes through his head.
    it’s gonna be a mess, because that is how he rolls.

  183. I think the WaPo and NYTimes are terrified of the West. They don’t understand it; it’s a whole ‘nother country as far as they’re concerned.
    Terrified? Those papers report local news. What’s wrong with the San Francisco Chronicle and the Los Angeles Times? Plenty is wrong. Western newspapers need to step up their game.

  184. I think the WaPo and NYTimes are terrified of the West. They don’t understand it; it’s a whole ‘nother country as far as they’re concerned.
    Terrified? Those papers report local news. What’s wrong with the San Francisco Chronicle and the Los Angeles Times? Plenty is wrong. Western newspapers need to step up their game.

  185. Trump did it anyway. whether to throw red meat to his base, or suck up to adelson, or just to flip the bird to everyone who told him it was a bad move.
    Or because somebody paid him. Because that’s a thing with Trump, either that or Putin’s going to kill him. Payment seems to be what’s going on with the ZTE situation.
    If November doesn’t work to get a grip on this, the Count’s mentioned methods are looking more and more likely.

  186. Trump did it anyway. whether to throw red meat to his base, or suck up to adelson, or just to flip the bird to everyone who told him it was a bad move.
    Or because somebody paid him. Because that’s a thing with Trump, either that or Putin’s going to kill him. Payment seems to be what’s going on with the ZTE situation.
    If November doesn’t work to get a grip on this, the Count’s mentioned methods are looking more and more likely.

  187. Or because somebody paid him.
    And Adelson definitely has the money to pay him. (Unlike Trump, he knows how to run a casino, and really is rich as a result.) Doesn’t prove he did pay off Trump, of course….

  188. Or because somebody paid him.
    And Adelson definitely has the money to pay him. (Unlike Trump, he knows how to run a casino, and really is rich as a result.) Doesn’t prove he did pay off Trump, of course….

  197. I think the WaPo and NYTimes are terrified of the West. They don’t understand it; it’s a whole ‘nother country as far as they’re concerned.
    The West is a whole other country, a country based on a self-serving self-aggrandizing lies:
    The claim to being the last real true independent hardworking Americans from people who have been living off the tax payers for generations and not only demand subsidies access to public resources but want that access to be unrestricted.
    An area that claims to be forgotten while having a ridiculously over represented in the US Senate.
    An area that claim to be the victims of big city and coastal elites–when the actual snobbery an prejudice is theirs toward ‘outsiders”.
    They claiym to be misunderstood–which is code for the don’t get to do whatever they want to our public land, sulk pout whine…
    Fr sitting on their butts, feeling sorry for themselves and demanding government support, is there any demograph tha can beat rural wihte folks?

  198. I think the WaPo and NYTimes are terrified of the West. They don’t understand it; it’s a whole ‘nother country as far as they’re concerned.
    The West is a whole other country, a country based on a self-serving self-aggrandizing lies:
    The claim to being the last real true independent hardworking Americans from people who have been living off the tax payers for generations and not only demand subsidies access to public resources but want that access to be unrestricted.
    An area that claims to be forgotten while having a ridiculously over represented in the US Senate.
    An area that claim to be the victims of big city and coastal elites–when the actual snobbery an prejudice is theirs toward ‘outsiders”.
    They claiym to be misunderstood–which is code for the don’t get to do whatever they want to our public land, sulk pout whine…
    Fr sitting on their butts, feeling sorry for themselves and demanding government support, is there any demograph tha can beat rural wihte folks?

  199. I wouldn’t say that the support of Chuck Schumer and Joe Lieberman makes it truly bipartisan. Schumer’s great on some issues, but this one not. Lieberman isn’t a Democrat. And there’s this.
    So please stop with the both sidism. Thanks.

  200. I wouldn’t say that the support of Chuck Schumer and Joe Lieberman makes it truly bipartisan. Schumer’s great on some issues, but this one not. Lieberman isn’t a Democrat. And there’s this.
    So please stop with the both sidism. Thanks.

  203. On Israel, both sidism is pretty close to the truth. Usually the Republicans are worse and this issue is no exception, but Democrats for the most part kowtow to Israel. The politics is fairly simple. Most of the people who are single issue voters and/ or donors on this subject are pro Israel. Most liberals sigh, consider the issue hopeless and change the subject.
    There is a good case for it being hopeless. The comments below are also good.
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/05/problem-voters-dont-want-another-path
    If we had a sane President and a sane political system, well, we would stop doing a lot of things. But one thing we would stop doing is talking about Israel as a wonderful democracy. It is Trumpland with the vast majority of people thinking like Trump.

  204. On Israel, both sidism is pretty close to the truth. Usually the Republicans are worse and this issue is no exception, but Democrats for the most part kowtow to Israel. The politics is fairly simple. Most of the people who are single issue voters and/ or donors on this subject are pro Israel. Most liberals sigh, consider the issue hopeless and change the subject.
    There is a good case for it being hopeless. The comments below are also good.
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/05/problem-voters-dont-want-another-path
    If we had a sane President and a sane political system, well, we would stop doing a lot of things. But one thing we would stop doing is talking about Israel as a wonderful democracy. It is Trumpland with the vast majority of people thinking like Trump.

  207. I did do the reading, novakant. Look at your own article for poll numbers for Democrats who support this move, and think about the political environment in the US right now.
    And, yes, Donald, I agree with the LGM post, and with many of the comments. As baby boomers die off, the politics of Israel will change. Democrats don’t support Israeli policies, and younger ones don’t justify everything that the right-wing Likud does through the lens of Zionism as the answer to the Holocaust.
    Pointing out that some Democratic apologists don’t represent their constituents on this matter is vital, and generalizing about “bipartisan” is destructive to the efforts of rank and file Democrats.

  208. I did do the reading, novakant. Look at your own article for poll numbers for Democrats who support this move, and think about the political environment in the US right now.
    And, yes, Donald, I agree with the LGM post, and with many of the comments. As baby boomers die off, the politics of Israel will change. Democrats don’t support Israeli policies, and younger ones don’t justify everything that the right-wing Likud does through the lens of Zionism as the answer to the Holocaust.
    Pointing out that some Democratic apologists don’t represent their constituents on this matter is vital, and generalizing about “bipartisan” is destructive to the efforts of rank and file Democrats.

  209. I generally think of “bipartisan support” as implying that the context is among people holding office.

  210. I generally think of “bipartisan support” as implying that the context is among people holding office.

  211. I generally think of “bipartisan support” as implying that the context is among people holding office.
    No Democratic officeholder would have been caught dead there yesterday.

  212. I generally think of “bipartisan support” as implying that the context is among people holding office.
    No Democratic officeholder would have been caught dead there yesterday.

  213. Perhaps not, but being there isn’t the only form of support. You can’t ignore what’s in the articles at novakant’s links. It’s pretty plain stuff.

  214. Perhaps not, but being there isn’t the only form of support. You can’t ignore what’s in the articles at novakant’s links. It’s pretty plain stuff.

  215. It’s pretty plain stuff.
    It’s political posturing for AIPAC that has nothing to do with political reality. Political reality: what would change if they said something different, except that Democratic office holders would be smeared as anti-Semites? Political reality: no one came through on embassy’s move until Trump’s nationalist right-wing coalition between Likudists and evangelicals came about.
    Our relationship with Israel, as with the entire Middle East, is complicated. And as Donald’s LGM link so eloquently pointed out, there’s really not that much that can be done unless we root for the extermination of Israel or Palestinians. This is why I don’t use Israel-Palestine as a litmus test for politicians except to the extent that what happened yesterday represents another cynical, corrupt financial deal on the part of the Trump administration.

  216. It’s pretty plain stuff.
    It’s political posturing for AIPAC that has nothing to do with political reality. Political reality: what would change if they said something different, except that Democratic office holders would be smeared as anti-Semites? Political reality: no one came through on embassy’s move until Trump’s nationalist right-wing coalition between Likudists and evangelicals came about.
    Our relationship with Israel, as with the entire Middle East, is complicated. And as Donald’s LGM link so eloquently pointed out, there’s really not that much that can be done unless we root for the extermination of Israel or Palestinians. This is why I don’t use Israel-Palestine as a litmus test for politicians except to the extent that what happened yesterday represents another cynical, corrupt financial deal on the part of the Trump administration.

  217. It’s political posturing for AIPAC…
    I don’t think anyone is denying this. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Trump isn’t awful. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the Democrats are as bad as the Republicans on this or any number of issues. What’s being pointed out is that we live in a nation where bipartisan support in congress for all sorts of sh1tty policies as Israel is concerned are the reality. Yes, it’s a tough situation for Democrats trying to be elected and re-elected. But I think the entire point here is that politics is winning over principle, which you appear to concede.

  218. It’s political posturing for AIPAC…
    I don’t think anyone is denying this. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Trump isn’t awful. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the Democrats are as bad as the Republicans on this or any number of issues. What’s being pointed out is that we live in a nation where bipartisan support in congress for all sorts of sh1tty policies as Israel is concerned are the reality. Yes, it’s a tough situation for Democrats trying to be elected and re-elected. But I think the entire point here is that politics is winning over principle, which you appear to concede.

  221. “cynical, corrupt financial deal on the part of the Trump administration.”
    Don’t forget he took a dump yesterday as a shameless, cynical financial deal with the toilet manufacturers and anti-environmentalists.
    Then he used extra paper as part of his corrupt financial deal with the lumber industry, then flushed twice just to give the finger to the environmentalists again.

  222. “cynical, corrupt financial deal on the part of the Trump administration.”
    Don’t forget he took a dump yesterday as a shameless, cynical financial deal with the toilet manufacturers and anti-environmentalists.
    Then he used extra paper as part of his corrupt financial deal with the lumber industry, then flushed twice just to give the finger to the environmentalists again.

  223. bipartisan support
    Again, whether that support actually results in lip service or dozens dead as a direct consequence of US policy is very different depending on the party in power.

  224. bipartisan support
    Again, whether that support actually results in lip service or dozens dead as a direct consequence of US policy is very different depending on the party in power.

  225. Lip service enables, particularly when it is performed through congressional votes and party platforms. From the SF Chronicle link:

    Trump’s announcement, however, is the culmination of years of pressure on the White House by a large bipartisan majority of Congress and leaders of both political parties. It represents the fulfillment of the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995, which mandates that the United States move its embassy to Jerusalem, though the bill allows a president to waive that requirement every six months if deemed in the national interest.
    In the Senate, that bill was co-sponsored by California Sens. Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer, as well as such leading Democrats as Joe Biden and John Kerry. Only one Democrat (the late Robert Byrd) voted no. On the House side, just 30 out of 204 Democrats voted no, including Bay Area Democrats Ron Dellums and George Miller, along with independent then-Rep. Bernie Sanders of Vermont.
    Since 1995, every president has taken advantage of the waiver to prevent such a provocative move, despite continued bipartisan pressure from Congress. As recently as this past June, just days after Trump issued his first waiver of the requirement, the Senate — with the support of Feinstein and Sen. Kamala Harris — voted 90-0 in favor of a resolution reaffirming the 1995 law and calling on Trump “to abide by its provisions.”
    For decades, the platforms of both the Republican and Democratic parties have called for recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. In 2012, then-Los Angeles mayor and now California gubernatorial candidate Antonio Villaraigosa violated party rules by inserting an amendment into the Democratic Party platform recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital without the requisite two-thirds majority. In the 2016 party platform, presidential nominee Hillary Clinton successfully pushed for language declaring that Jerusalem “should remain the capital of Israel.”

  226. Lip service enables, particularly when it is performed through congressional votes and party platforms. From the SF Chronicle link:

    Trump’s announcement, however, is the culmination of years of pressure on the White House by a large bipartisan majority of Congress and leaders of both political parties. It represents the fulfillment of the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995, which mandates that the United States move its embassy to Jerusalem, though the bill allows a president to waive that requirement every six months if deemed in the national interest.
    In the Senate, that bill was co-sponsored by California Sens. Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer, as well as such leading Democrats as Joe Biden and John Kerry. Only one Democrat (the late Robert Byrd) voted no. On the House side, just 30 out of 204 Democrats voted no, including Bay Area Democrats Ron Dellums and George Miller, along with independent then-Rep. Bernie Sanders of Vermont.
    Since 1995, every president has taken advantage of the waiver to prevent such a provocative move, despite continued bipartisan pressure from Congress. As recently as this past June, just days after Trump issued his first waiver of the requirement, the Senate — with the support of Feinstein and Sen. Kamala Harris — voted 90-0 in favor of a resolution reaffirming the 1995 law and calling on Trump “to abide by its provisions.”
    For decades, the platforms of both the Republican and Democratic parties have called for recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. In 2012, then-Los Angeles mayor and now California gubernatorial candidate Antonio Villaraigosa violated party rules by inserting an amendment into the Democratic Party platform recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital without the requisite two-thirds majority. In the 2016 party platform, presidential nominee Hillary Clinton successfully pushed for language declaring that Jerusalem “should remain the capital of Israel.”

  233. The West is a whole other country, a country based on a self-serving self-aggrandizing lies:
    The claim to being the last real true independent hardworking Americans from people who have been living off the tax payers for generations and not only demand subsidies access to public resources but want that access to be unrestricted.
    wonkie, be advised that California is part of the West. Certainly in the minds of Californians. And that description doesn’t fit us at all at all.

  234. The West is a whole other country, a country based on a self-serving self-aggrandizing lies:
    The claim to being the last real true independent hardworking Americans from people who have been living off the tax payers for generations and not only demand subsidies access to public resources but want that access to be unrestricted.
    wonkie, be advised that California is part of the West. Certainly in the minds of Californians. And that description doesn’t fit us at all at all.

  235. From the SF Chronicle link
    Yes, as I mentioned, I read that.
    Can you explain how Democratic “support” “enabled” Trump’s actual policy, a policy that had nominal “bipartisan support” for ages, but didn’t actually happen? Can you describe another instance where Trump did something because it had “bipartisan support” – especially the support of Democrats?

  236. From the SF Chronicle link
    Yes, as I mentioned, I read that.
    Can you explain how Democratic “support” “enabled” Trump’s actual policy, a policy that had nominal “bipartisan support” for ages, but didn’t actually happen? Can you describe another instance where Trump did something because it had “bipartisan support” – especially the support of Democrats?

  237. “Don’t forget he took a dump yesterday”
    Will his White House staff, or as mp himself calls them, the traitors and cowards, ever stop leaking these matters of national security to the world?
    The Presidential mp bowel movements are lovingly and freshly gathered by mp’s long-time sycophants working at the White House, photographed in all of their glory, and then FEDEXED to China, where they are divided and packaged in gold leaf and then re-imported to this country tariff-free for distribution and sale in gift shops in the finest mp hotel properties AND the thousands of Shit and GO gas station/convenience stores throughout red states.
    The White House Gift shop, across the street from the White House, has ample inventory on hand.
    Each tidy package is accompanied by an engraved card signed personally by a Presidential lackey in mp’s name, with the statement to his fans “Don’t ever say I didn’t give you something of value”, a photograph of the original BM from whence the reliquary originated, and a red hat with the mp slogan “Make America Regular Again” embossed thereon.
    There were early reports that some of his most ardent supporters in mp strongholds around the country were mistaking the shiny little packages for chocolates and most unfortunately consuming them like candy.
    An FDA scientist, last seen disappearing into his new office in the boiler room at the Department of headquarters in Washington D. C., suggested that the gift poopies be labeled as inedible and ‘only for display” to protect the health and safety of the public, but the White House overruled this move as intrusive over-regulation that violates the Framer’s original intent that free Americans can damn well decide to put anything they like in their mouths without the nanny-state yelling “NO! Don’t eat that! Oh, gross!”
    Reporters from elite coastal newspaper fanned out across the country to interview mp’s base about the reported consumption of the contents of the gold-leaf packages and one merely said, “Yum, it’s like a box of chocolates. Yew never know what you’re going to get. You get use to it, like anything. I’ve tasted worse. Pass me that glass of gin over there.”
    Real Americans are stoical, if nothing else.
    A subsequent leak from an anonymous White House official confirmed that when President mp was informed of this proposed regulation he proclaimed, “Let the American people eat shit. There’s plenty more where that came from. Why shouldn’t all Americans be in like Flint?”
    The question of limiting the supply of the Presidential manure, and thus causing the value of the gifts already distributed to rise (they could be traded in exchange for medical care, for example) was raised in a Cabinet meeting, with Larry Kudlow, for one, suggesting the Presidential turds could replace the dollar as the American unit of currency … he even came up with a name … Shitcoin …. but the discussion was tabled when everyone in the room agreed that limiting the supply of Mr mp’s output was impossible given that he is so full of it and produces at both ends all day and every day like a man hellbent on dysentery.

  238. “Don’t forget he took a dump yesterday”
    Will his White House staff, or as mp himself calls them, the traitors and cowards, ever stop leaking these matters of national security to the world?
    The Presidential mp bowel movements are lovingly and freshly gathered by mp’s long-time sycophants working at the White House, photographed in all of their glory, and then FEDEXED to China, where they are divided and packaged in gold leaf and then re-imported to this country tariff-free for distribution and sale in gift shops in the finest mp hotel properties AND the thousands of Shit and GO gas station/convenience stores throughout red states.
    The White House Gift shop, across the street from the White House, has ample inventory on hand.
    Each tidy package is accompanied by an engraved card signed personally by a Presidential lackey in mp’s name, with the statement to his fans “Don’t ever say I didn’t give you something of value”, a photograph of the original BM from whence the reliquary originated, and a red hat with the mp slogan “Make America Regular Again” embossed thereon.
    There were early reports that some of his most ardent supporters in mp strongholds around the country were mistaking the shiny little packages for chocolates and most unfortunately consuming them like candy.
    An FDA scientist, last seen disappearing into his new office in the boiler room at the Department of headquarters in Washington D. C., suggested that the gift poopies be labeled as inedible and ‘only for display” to protect the health and safety of the public, but the White House overruled this move as intrusive over-regulation that violates the Framer’s original intent that free Americans can damn well decide to put anything they like in their mouths without the nanny-state yelling “NO! Don’t eat that! Oh, gross!”
    Reporters from elite coastal newspaper fanned out across the country to interview mp’s base about the reported consumption of the contents of the gold-leaf packages and one merely said, “Yum, it’s like a box of chocolates. Yew never know what you’re going to get. You get use to it, like anything. I’ve tasted worse. Pass me that glass of gin over there.”
    Real Americans are stoical, if nothing else.
    A subsequent leak from an anonymous White House official confirmed that when President mp was informed of this proposed regulation he proclaimed, “Let the American people eat shit. There’s plenty more where that came from. Why shouldn’t all Americans be in like Flint?”
    The question of limiting the supply of the Presidential manure, and thus causing the value of the gifts already distributed to rise (they could be traded in exchange for medical care, for example) was raised in a Cabinet meeting, with Larry Kudlow, for one, suggesting the Presidential turds could replace the dollar as the American unit of currency … he even came up with a name … Shitcoin …. but the discussion was tabled when everyone in the room agreed that limiting the supply of Mr mp’s output was impossible given that he is so full of it and produces at both ends all day and every day like a man hellbent on dysentery.

  243. Can you explain how Democratic “support” “enabled” Trump’s actual policy, a policy that had nominal “bipartisan support” for ages, but didn’t actually happen? Can you describe another instance where Trump did something because it had “bipartisan support” – especially the support of Democrats?
    It’s a failure of leadership. Do you think any Democrats, meaning former or current officeholders, regret going along with these sorts of policies for political expediency now that Trump has acted on this one? Do you think the positions party leader take don’t affect how rank-and-file voters think about issues over time? Why don’t you tell me how none of this matters? Why don’t you tell me how these party votes and party platforms don’t mean anything?

  244. Can you explain how Democratic “support” “enabled” Trump’s actual policy, a policy that had nominal “bipartisan support” for ages, but didn’t actually happen? Can you describe another instance where Trump did something because it had “bipartisan support” – especially the support of Democrats?
    It’s a failure of leadership. Do you think any Democrats, meaning former or current officeholders, regret going along with these sorts of policies for political expediency now that Trump has acted on this one? Do you think the positions party leader take don’t affect how rank-and-file voters think about issues over time? Why don’t you tell me how none of this matters? Why don’t you tell me how these party votes and party platforms don’t mean anything?

  245. Why don’t you tell me how none of this matters?
    I already did, and you haven’t told me how it does matter. Democrats are not responsible for Trump’s violation of historical norms. Is the lip service only policy of support for Jerusalem as the Israeli capital a historical norm? Why, yes it is.
    The United States can’t solve the Israel-Palestine issue. What it can do is avoid actions that exacerbate violence. What politicians have done is talk around that. The US has helped to maintain the status quo because no one is able to see how changing the status quo would make things better.
    If you’ve got the answer, I’m sure that the next Democratic President would love to know what it is.

  246. Why don’t you tell me how none of this matters?
    I already did, and you haven’t told me how it does matter. Democrats are not responsible for Trump’s violation of historical norms. Is the lip service only policy of support for Jerusalem as the Israeli capital a historical norm? Why, yes it is.
    The United States can’t solve the Israel-Palestine issue. What it can do is avoid actions that exacerbate violence. What politicians have done is talk around that. The US has helped to maintain the status quo because no one is able to see how changing the status quo would make things better.
    If you’ve got the answer, I’m sure that the next Democratic President would love to know what it is.

  247. Somebody help me out here. Trump orders the Commerce Dept to remove the sanctions on ZTE (which not only trades with Iran and North Korea but poses potential national security issues with its phones) because “too many Chinese jobs will be lost” if it is forced to shut down — which it looked like it was going to. Just days after China announced a $500 million investment in a Trump project in Indonesia.
    But he maintains restrictions which look set to drive out of business soybean growers and users of temporary (H-2B) workers — many of whom supported him. (Well, except for his own companies, of course. Those H-2B visas just roll right along….)
    This is “America First” and “good for business” how again…? What am I missing.

  248. Somebody help me out here. Trump orders the Commerce Dept to remove the sanctions on ZTE (which not only trades with Iran and North Korea but poses potential national security issues with its phones) because “too many Chinese jobs will be lost” if it is forced to shut down — which it looked like it was going to. Just days after China announced a $500 million investment in a Trump project in Indonesia.
    But he maintains restrictions which look set to drive out of business soybean growers and users of temporary (H-2B) workers — many of whom supported him. (Well, except for his own companies, of course. Those H-2B visas just roll right along….)
    This is “America First” and “good for business” how again…? What am I missing.

  249. FYI, two comments from this weekend (one from Donald and one from the Count) have been moved from the Spam folder and published.

  250. FYI, two comments from this weekend (one from Donald and one from the Count) have been moved from the Spam folder and published.

  253. Democrats are not responsible for Trump’s violation of historical norms.
    Not entirely, but when they go soft on Israel for whatever reasons, they make it easier for Trump to violate a norm that falls short staunch opposition to what Trump has decided to do.
    Is the lip service only policy of support for Jerusalem as the Israeli capital a historical norm? Why, yes it is.
    See above. Is this lip services the only historical norm that Democrats could have established? Was it actually necessary to maintain the status quo they could see no better alternative to?
    Can Democrats do no wrong, because Trump?
    If you’ve got the answer, I’m sure that the next Democratic President would love to know what it is.
    Whether or not the US can solve the I-P issue, I don’t think it’s required to support the sh1tty things Israel does.

  254. Democrats are not responsible for Trump’s violation of historical norms.
    Not entirely, but when they go soft on Israel for whatever reasons, they make it easier for Trump to violate a norm that falls short staunch opposition to what Trump has decided to do.
    Is the lip service only policy of support for Jerusalem as the Israeli capital a historical norm? Why, yes it is.
    See above. Is this lip services the only historical norm that Democrats could have established? Was it actually necessary to maintain the status quo they could see no better alternative to?
    Can Democrats do no wrong, because Trump?
    If you’ve got the answer, I’m sure that the next Democratic President would love to know what it is.
    Whether or not the US can solve the I-P issue, I don’t think it’s required to support the sh1tty things Israel does.

  255. who owns the decision of where US embassies will be located?
    if it’s Trump’s, as POTUS, does anyone think he took the decision to move the US embassy to Jerusalem because of (D) support for that move?

  256. who owns the decision of where US embassies will be located?
    if it’s Trump’s, as POTUS, does anyone think he took the decision to move the US embassy to Jerusalem because of (D) support for that move?

  259. This is “America First” and “good for business” how again…? What am I missing.
    you’re missing sufficient devotion to Trump. please report to your local Sinclair affiliate for reprogramming.

  260. This is “America First” and “good for business” how again…? What am I missing.
    you’re missing sufficient devotion to Trump. please report to your local Sinclair affiliate for reprogramming.

  261. Can Democrats can do no wrong, because Trump?, full stop.
    FTFY.
    Or if they can, you’re not supposed to say so, which amounts to the same thing.

  262. Can Democrats can do no wrong, because Trump?, full stop.
    FTFY.
    Or if they can, you’re not supposed to say so, which amounts to the same thing.

  263. if it’s Trump’s, as POTUS, does anyone think he took the decision to move the US embassy to Jerusalem because of (D) support for that move?
    No. I don’t think Trump said to himself, “I can get away with this because the Democrats have supported it” or “I want to do this, and lucky for me, I have support from Democrats, because I wouldn’t do it otherwise.”
    What I do think is that the political environment around this decision has been built over time. What I do think is that Trump does bow to public opinion to some degree or other, and that public opinion has been shaped by the political acceptability of our support for, or lack of opposition to, many of the worse things Israel has done.
    So not a “proximate cause” to borrow a phase from Guns, Germs and Steel. It’s not like the guns the Spanish had when they defeated the Aztecs, but it is like the farmable crops and domesticate-able animals that existed in Eurasia that allowed them the development of technology superior to what existed in the New World.
    I’m sure Democrats calculated that this tacit support over decades was the least-bad option, but I think they may consider that calculation to be in error. Call it a mistake if that’s a palatable characterization.
    I don’t want to punish Democrats for it, but pointing out what might be a lesson in history may prevent a similar mistake in the future.

  264. if it’s Trump’s, as POTUS, does anyone think he took the decision to move the US embassy to Jerusalem because of (D) support for that move?
    No. I don’t think Trump said to himself, “I can get away with this because the Democrats have supported it” or “I want to do this, and lucky for me, I have support from Democrats, because I wouldn’t do it otherwise.”
    What I do think is that the political environment around this decision has been built over time. What I do think is that Trump does bow to public opinion to some degree or other, and that public opinion has been shaped by the political acceptability of our support for, or lack of opposition to, many of the worse things Israel has done.
    So not a “proximate cause” to borrow a phase from Guns, Germs and Steel. It’s not like the guns the Spanish had when they defeated the Aztecs, but it is like the farmable crops and domesticate-able animals that existed in Eurasia that allowed them the development of technology superior to what existed in the New World.
    I’m sure Democrats calculated that this tacit support over decades was the least-bad option, but I think they may consider that calculation to be in error. Call it a mistake if that’s a palatable characterization.
    I don’t want to punish Democrats for it, but pointing out what might be a lesson in history may prevent a similar mistake in the future.

  265. I agree. I was happy that Obama criticized the West Bank settlements, but it certainly didn’t help.
    I don’t know about “certainly.” You notice the word “grew” is used in contrast to “boom.”
    That aside, sometimes people die even though they were given CPR. Does that mean we don’t give CPR if things don’t look so good?

  266. I agree. I was happy that Obama criticized the West Bank settlements, but it certainly didn’t help.
    I don’t know about “certainly.” You notice the word “grew” is used in contrast to “boom.”
    That aside, sometimes people die even though they were given CPR. Does that mean we don’t give CPR if things don’t look so good?

  267. Folks like the Bundys are rare, and getting rarer. At the time of that particular kerfuffle, they were the only ranchers in Nevada not playing by the federal rules.
    If we’re going to fuss about Wyoming and Alaska and Montana having Senators, we need to fuss about Vermont and Delaware and Rhode Island as well. (It will be very close as to whether Wyoming passes Vermont in the 2020 census. Montana will almost certainly pass Rhode Island.) Millions of people per US Senator, by modified US Census Bureau region (VA, MD, and DE moved from South to Northeast as part of the urban corridor), July 2017 pop estimates:

    NE urban corridor    2.96
South                4.19
Midwest              2.84
West                 2.98

  268. Folks like the Bundys are rare, and getting rarer. At the time of that particular kerfuffle, they were the only ranchers in Nevada not playing by the federal rules.
    If we’re going to fuss about Wyoming and Alaska and Montana having Senators, we need to fuss about Vermont and Delaware and Rhode Island as well. (It will be very close as to whether Wyoming passes Vermont in the 2020 census. Montana will almost certainly pass Rhode Island.) Millions of people per US Senator, by modified US Census Bureau region (VA, MD, and DE moved from South to Northeast as part of the urban corridor), July 2017 pop estimates:

    NE urban corridor    2.96
South                4.19
Midwest              2.84
West                 2.98

  269. I don’t want to punish Democrats for it
    I’m not interested in punishing anyone for it.
    Israel, and the middle east in general, is a mess. Everybody hates each other, and the regional conflicts end up dragging the rest of the world into it.
    There have been reasonable attempts at peace, and the principals involved have taken turns blowing them up. And, provoking each other, and making it increasingly harder to imagine how anything like peace could ever be achieved.
    In the middle of all that, we – the US – decide to come down solidly on one side of the conflict and take one of the most provocative decisions we could take.
    The situation is inflamed, again, and a lot of people end up dead. Which is about the single most predictable outcome that can be imagined.
    I don’t care who supported it, I don’t care who “gets to pick their own capital”, it was a bloody stupid move. Unless your goal is to stir up the shit and get a lot of people killed.
    I doubt that was Trump’s goal, I just don’t think he gives a shit about it one way or the other.

  270. I don’t want to punish Democrats for it
    I’m not interested in punishing anyone for it.
    Israel, and the middle east in general, is a mess. Everybody hates each other, and the regional conflicts end up dragging the rest of the world into it.
    There have been reasonable attempts at peace, and the principals involved have taken turns blowing them up. And, provoking each other, and making it increasingly harder to imagine how anything like peace could ever be achieved.
    In the middle of all that, we – the US – decide to come down solidly on one side of the conflict and take one of the most provocative decisions we could take.
    The situation is inflamed, again, and a lot of people end up dead. Which is about the single most predictable outcome that can be imagined.
    I don’t care who supported it, I don’t care who “gets to pick their own capital”, it was a bloody stupid move. Unless your goal is to stir up the shit and get a lot of people killed.
    I doubt that was Trump’s goal, I just don’t think he gives a shit about it one way or the other.

  271. You get no argument from me, except that I think Democrats might actually be capable of learning something from it, unlike some others.

  272. You get no argument from me, except that I think Democrats might actually be capable of learning something from it, unlike some others.

  273. I don’t want to punish Democrats for it, but pointing out what might be a lesson in history may prevent a similar mistake in the future.
    What russell said.
    But also, I would recommend that you check out what drives Trump’s foreign policy.
    And, unless you’re willing to go down the very long historical road, I would suggest that historical lessons are not really that easy to discern from this situation.
    It shouldn’t be that hard to figure out why post-WWII, when many Americans had either lost, or knew people who lost, their entire families in the Holocaust, while the US did nothing to save them, and why they might have thought it was a good idea to stand up for Israel as a safe haven so that such a thing would not so easily happen again. We have come to discover, and even knew from the beginning, that problems existed with that kind of guilt-induced loyalty, and certainly they exist now as Israel’s government has become a right-wing authoritarian regime in its own right.
    A fifth of millennials aren’t sure what the Holocaust was. So I imagine dynamic will change.
    It’s all tragic, and our role in it is not simple, and probably not decisive. This latest move by Trump has nothing to do with Democrats and their flaws.
    And one more thing: the historical lesson we should have learned is to support refugees. Support refugees. That’s the primary lesson that should have been learned. It hasn’t been learned.

  274. I don’t want to punish Democrats for it, but pointing out what might be a lesson in history may prevent a similar mistake in the future.
    What russell said.
    But also, I would recommend that you check out what drives Trump’s foreign policy.
    And, unless you’re willing to go down the very long historical road, I would suggest that historical lessons are not really that easy to discern from this situation.
    It shouldn’t be that hard to figure out why post-WWII, when many Americans had either lost, or knew people who lost, their entire families in the Holocaust, while the US did nothing to save them, and why they might have thought it was a good idea to stand up for Israel as a safe haven so that such a thing would not so easily happen again. We have come to discover, and even knew from the beginning, that problems existed with that kind of guilt-induced loyalty, and certainly they exist now as Israel’s government has become a right-wing authoritarian regime in its own right.
    A fifth of millennials aren’t sure what the Holocaust was. So I imagine dynamic will change.
    It’s all tragic, and our role in it is not simple, and probably not decisive. This latest move by Trump has nothing to do with Democrats and their flaws.
    And one more thing: the historical lesson we should have learned is to support refugees. Support refugees. That’s the primary lesson that should have been learned. It hasn’t been learned.

  275. We have come to discover, and even knew from the beginning, that problems existed with that kind of guilt-induced loyalty, and certainly they exist now as Israel’s government has become a right-wing authoritarian regime in its own right.
    Who’s “we”?

  276. We have come to discover, and even knew from the beginning, that problems existed with that kind of guilt-induced loyalty, and certainly they exist now as Israel’s government has become a right-wing authoritarian regime in its own right.
    Who’s “we”?

  279. It shouldn’t be that hard to figure out why post-WWII, when many Americans had either lost, or knew people who lost, their entire families in the Holocaust, while the US did nothing to save them, and why they might have thought it was a good idea to stand up for Israel as a safe haven so that such a thing would not so easily happen again.
    There was also the detail that, for a couple of decades after WW II, Israel was the only real democracy in the Middle East (although Lebanon had some moments; as did Iran until the CIA trashed it).
    A guy named Arthur Hoppe wrote a column right after the 1967 June War. (Sorry, unable to find an Internet copy. Wonder why the SF Chronicle, which is where I read it, didn’t save it….) The US government had just announced that we would be “neutral in thought, word, and deed.” The column was entitled “A Guide For Neutral Thinkers.” One of the great lines: “Israel is so small and so democratic. And the Arab states are, to put it neutrally, Arab states.”
    Granted, Likud has changed things for the worse. Or, perhaps, Israel has changed for the worse, which has benefited Likud. But there is still, I think, a lot of political inertia going on in the US.

  280. It shouldn’t be that hard to figure out why post-WWII, when many Americans had either lost, or knew people who lost, their entire families in the Holocaust, while the US did nothing to save them, and why they might have thought it was a good idea to stand up for Israel as a safe haven so that such a thing would not so easily happen again.
    There was also the detail that, for a couple of decades after WW II, Israel was the only real democracy in the Middle East (although Lebanon had some moments; as did Iran until the CIA trashed it).
    A guy named Arthur Hoppe wrote a column right after the 1967 June War. (Sorry, unable to find an Internet copy. Wonder why the SF Chronicle, which is where I read it, didn’t save it….) The US government had just announced that we would be “neutral in thought, word, and deed.” The column was entitled “A Guide For Neutral Thinkers.” One of the great lines: “Israel is so small and so democratic. And the Arab states are, to put it neutrally, Arab states.”
    Granted, Likud has changed things for the worse. Or, perhaps, Israel has changed for the worse, which has benefited Likud. But there is still, I think, a lot of political inertia going on in the US.

  281. the historical lesson we should have learned is to support refugees. Support refugees. That’s the primary lesson that should have been learned. It hasn’t been learned.
    I couldn’t agree more.

  282. the historical lesson we should have learned is to support refugees. Support refugees. That’s the primary lesson that should have been learned. It hasn’t been learned.
    I couldn’t agree more.

  283. “The embassy move had bipartisan support.
    So what? What’s your point?”
    My point was that Americans in general, including many liberals, bear much of the blame for Israel’s human rights violations. This goes back decades. I agree with much of what sapient says and in general Republicans are worse, especially in recent years but what happened yesterday is not that new. It would have happened without the embassy move. Gaza is a giant prison on the way to becoming uninhabitable. The embassy move rubs salt in the wounds, but the protests in Gaza were about their own misery and Israel was going to shoot them because this is what they do. We support Israel when they “ defend themselves”. We did it in the summer 2014 war when six civilians in Israel died alongside 1500 in Gaza, 500 of them children, many in their homes. We did it in 2009 during the earlier war. I could keep going back. Israel knows they can shoot civilians or bomb them or blockade them and American politicians will say they are defending themselves, sometimes using weapons we supplied. If we had stopped giving them unqualified support decades ago things might not have sunk to the level they have. We are not the innocent well intentioned bystanders here. Our very language is biased against Palestinians. People think they are being balanced when they condemn settlements on the one hand vs. terror on the other. At this point every single casualty in the current mess is Palestinian, yet NYT editorial writers condemn their violence. But nobody important in the West pays attention to Gaza except when the violence gets above a certain level. Palestinian fishermen regularly are fired upon and there is a no man’s land established by Israel on the Gaza’s side of the fence and Gazans are treated like prisoners, all with our tacit blessing, because Israel is just defending itself.
    There is a history behind this, but it is a bit more complex than Americans feeling guilt over the Holocaust and siding with Israel, but sapient is right that this played a big role. It has mainly played a role in making people feel like they have to walk on eggshells when discussing this subject. I started following it seriously, reading Israeli revisionist historians and others back in the 80’s and noticed the enormous gap between what I read in books and what I read or heard in American political culture.
    I grew up in the South— we moved there literally weeks after the signs came off the water fountains. The way Israel supporters talk about Palestinians mirrors very closely the way whites talked about blacks when I was growing up. Even some of the liberals sound like the white moderates in MLK’s “ Letter From a Birmingham jail”. Americans, liberal or conservative, are in no position whatsoever to lecture Palestinians on nonviolence,yet go to the comment sections at the NYT or read the editors and there they are, lecturing Palestinians on the subject.
    One other point which I have made before. Assad reacted to peaceful protests in a similar fashion. Does any sane person think we or anyone should find “ moderate Palestinian rebels” and funnel weapons to them? No, because sane people realize it would lead to a massive bloodbath on both sides. If Iran tried to do this we would go berserk. But it is what we did in Syria.
    On this subject and some others I don’t care about the Democrat vs Republican quarrel. Yes, that “ quarrel” is extremely important and it matters a great deal who wins in various November elections and even on this subject the Republicans are worse, but no, this latest atrocity is not just Trump’s fault, since again, the actual killing occurred in Gaza and was about Gaza. People of either party who want to prevent such things will stop making excuses for Israeli brutality and will pressure Israel to remove most of the arbitrary and cruel restrictions they place on the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza. Trump, of course, is a despicable callous war criminal without a scrap of human decency, but what he contributed to this was his open display of sociopathic indifference to what happened.
    I saw wj’s comment about Israel being the only democracy in the Middle East in its early decades. Its Palestinian citizens lived under martial law in that period. ( I am talking about before the 67 war, so no, not about the West Bank.). Palestinian refugees who tried to sneak back home were frequently shot. Benny Morris in “ Israel’s Border Wars” says several thousand were killed in the late 40’s through the early 50’s.
    Being a democracy does not necessarily mean a country has a good human rights record.

  284. “The embassy move had bipartisan support.
    So what? What’s your point?”
    My point was that Americans in general, including many liberals, bear much of the blame for Israel’s human rights violations. This goes back decades. I agree with much of what sapient says and in general Republicans are worse, especially in recent years but what happened yesterday is not that new. It would have happened without the embassy move. Gaza is a giant prison on the way to becoming uninhabitable. The embassy move rubs salt in the wounds, but the protests in Gaza were about their own misery and Israel was going to shoot them because this is what they do. We support Israel when they “ defend themselves”. We did it in the summer 2014 war when six civilians in Israel died alongside 1500 in Gaza, 500 of them children, many in their homes. We did it in 2009 during the earlier war. I could keep going back. Israel knows they can shoot civilians or bomb them or blockade them and American politicians will say they are defending themselves, sometimes using weapons we supplied. If we had stopped giving them unqualified support decades ago things might not have sunk to the level they have. We are not the innocent well intentioned bystanders here. Our very language is biased against Palestinians. People think they are being balanced when they condemn settlements on the one hand vs. terror on the other. At this point every single casualty in the current mess is Palestinian, yet NYT editorial writers condemn their violence. But nobody important in the West pays attention to Gaza except when the violence gets above a certain level. Palestinian fishermen regularly are fired upon and there is a no man’s land established by Israel on the Gaza’s side of the fence and Gazans are treated like prisoners, all with our tacit blessing, because Israel is just defending itself.
    There is a history behind this, but it is a bit more complex than Americans feeling guilt over the Holocaust and siding with Israel, but sapient is right that this played a big role. It has mainly played a role in making people feel like they have to walk on eggshells when discussing this subject. I started following it seriously, reading Israeli revisionist historians and others back in the 80’s and noticed the enormous gap between what I read in books and what I read or heard in American political culture.
    I grew up in the South— we moved there literally weeks after the signs came off the water fountains. The way Israel supporters talk about Palestinians mirrors very closely the way whites talked about blacks when I was growing up. Even some of the liberals sound like the white moderates in MLK’s “ Letter From a Birmingham jail”. Americans, liberal or conservative, are in no position whatsoever to lecture Palestinians on nonviolence,yet go to the comment sections at the NYT or read the editors and there they are, lecturing Palestinians on the subject.
    One other point which I have made before. Assad reacted to peaceful protests in a similar fashion. Does any sane person think we or anyone should find “ moderate Palestinian rebels” and funnel weapons to them? No, because sane people realize it would lead to a massive bloodbath on both sides. If Iran tried to do this we would go berserk. But it is what we did in Syria.
    On this subject and some others I don’t care about the Democrat vs Republican quarrel. Yes, that “ quarrel” is extremely important and it matters a great deal who wins in various November elections and even on this subject the Republicans are worse, but no, this latest atrocity is not just Trump’s fault, since again, the actual killing occurred in Gaza and was about Gaza. People of either party who want to prevent such things will stop making excuses for Israeli brutality and will pressure Israel to remove most of the arbitrary and cruel restrictions they place on the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza. Trump, of course, is a despicable callous war criminal without a scrap of human decency, but what he contributed to this was his open display of sociopathic indifference to what happened.
    I saw wj’s comment about Israel being the only democracy in the Middle East in its early decades. Its Palestinian citizens lived under martial law in that period. ( I am talking about before the 67 war, so no, not about the West Bank.). Palestinian refugees who tried to sneak back home were frequently shot. Benny Morris in “ Israel’s Border Wars” says several thousand were killed in the late 40’s through the early 50’s.
    Being a democracy does not necessarily mean a country has a good human rights record.

  285. It hasn’t been learned.
    Not even by “we”?
    Everything my friends on the right fear about refugees is the very thing that will happen because of our failure to support refugees. You reap what you sow, and we are sowing hate for America in all the politically and economically unstable parts of the world where we refuse to do our share. That’s just the selfish consideration. Forget about simply helping people for its own sake.

  286. It hasn’t been learned.
    Not even by “we”?
    Everything my friends on the right fear about refugees is the very thing that will happen because of our failure to support refugees. You reap what you sow, and we are sowing hate for America in all the politically and economically unstable parts of the world where we refuse to do our share. That’s just the selfish consideration. Forget about simply helping people for its own sake.

  287. The bipartisan political support for the legitimacy of the Israeli state (I shall abjure use of the term ‘Zionist entity’) in Palestine runs pretty deep, and simply cannot be denied:
    1) Western guilt wrt to the Holocaust.
    2) Offload that guilt by sending the few remaining children of the One God to Palestine…look, no anti-semitism here any more! No Jews!
    3) Support for “plucky” “democratic”(except for Israeli arabs) Israel amidst a sea of inferior/backward (shhh! brown) Muslims.
    3) The importance of those with Jewish heritage in the New Deal Democratic Party coalition.
    Political choices made by the Israelis since the ’67 war of conquest put them firmly on the path to becoming an officially apartheid society. Our unstinting support for these policies has assisted and reinforced that effort.
    I don’t see them getting of this treadmill.
    The past, as they say, is prologue.
    If there is one issue that could tear apart what’s left of the Democratic Party New Deal coalition, this is it.

  288. The bipartisan political support for the legitimacy of the Israeli state (I shall abjure use of the term ‘Zionist entity’) in Palestine runs pretty deep, and simply cannot be denied:
    1) Western guilt wrt to the Holocaust.
    2) Offload that guilt by sending the few remaining children of the One God to Palestine…look, no anti-semitism here any more! No Jews!
    3) Support for “plucky” “democratic”(except for Israeli arabs) Israel amidst a sea of inferior/backward (shhh! brown) Muslims.
    3) The importance of those with Jewish heritage in the New Deal Democratic Party coalition.
    Political choices made by the Israelis since the ’67 war of conquest put them firmly on the path to becoming an officially apartheid society. Our unstinting support for these policies has assisted and reinforced that effort.
    I don’t see them getting of this treadmill.
    The past, as they say, is prologue.
    If there is one issue that could tear apart what’s left of the Democratic Party New Deal coalition, this is it.

  293. “plucky” “democratic”(except for Israeli arabs) Israel
    I must be missing something here. Last I looked, Israeli Arabs had the vote. Indeed, I suspect that’s one of the reasons that Israel doesn’t just annex the West Bank: their Arabs do have the vote. Members in Parliament and everything.
    So how to avoid giving the vote to the Palestinians from the West Bank if you just take over? Just grandfather the existing Israeli Arabs, maybe? But then, what do you do when there’s intermarriage?
    On the other hand, if you give them the vote, you just became a minority. Oops! (Something the far right in the US can probably relate to….)

  294. “plucky” “democratic”(except for Israeli arabs) Israel
    I must be missing something here. Last I looked, Israeli Arabs had the vote. Indeed, I suspect that’s one of the reasons that Israel doesn’t just annex the West Bank: their Arabs do have the vote. Members in Parliament and everything.
    So how to avoid giving the vote to the Palestinians from the West Bank if you just take over? Just grandfather the existing Israeli Arabs, maybe? But then, what do you do when there’s intermarriage?
    On the other hand, if you give them the vote, you just became a minority. Oops! (Something the far right in the US can probably relate to….)

  295. Obama signed a historically unprecedented 38 billion military aid deal with Netanyahu, the biggest in US history – and this is just a fraction of the arms the US has been and will be selling to ME countries espc. Saudi Arabia.

  296. Obama signed a historically unprecedented 38 billion military aid deal with Netanyahu, the biggest in US history – and this is just a fraction of the arms the US has been and will be selling to ME countries espc. Saudi Arabia.

  297. On this subject and some others I don’t care about the Democrat vs Republican quarrel.
    Nor I. Hence my question.
    Moving the embassy to Jerusalem is not “just Trump’s fault”. But it was his decision.
    So, I’d say he’s a large part of the problem here.
    If you want to yell at (D)’s too, just to make sure we’re being fair, that’s fine.
    Good and bad policies and/or behavior regarding Israel don’t really break along strictly US partisan lines. And people who support Israel, or not, do or don’t do so for a really varied mix of reasons.
    It appears to be an intractable situation. It was good for Jewish people to have a polity, so they wouldn’t be subject to the whims of every other nation on earth. And, the Palestinians got screwed, basically they were told to clear out of places they’d call home for generations.
    Making that work will take tremendous forbearance and the careful nurturing of trust and good will. For some number of generations.
    That’s not really happening, and there’s enough blame to go around for pretty much everyone to have a slice.

  298. On this subject and some others I don’t care about the Democrat vs Republican quarrel.
    Nor I. Hence my question.
    Moving the embassy to Jerusalem is not “just Trump’s fault”. But it was his decision.
    So, I’d say he’s a large part of the problem here.
    If you want to yell at (D)’s too, just to make sure we’re being fair, that’s fine.
    Good and bad policies and/or behavior regarding Israel don’t really break along strictly US partisan lines. And people who support Israel, or not, do or don’t do so for a really varied mix of reasons.
    It appears to be an intractable situation. It was good for Jewish people to have a polity, so they wouldn’t be subject to the whims of every other nation on earth. And, the Palestinians got screwed, basically they were told to clear out of places they’d call home for generations.
    Making that work will take tremendous forbearance and the careful nurturing of trust and good will. For some number of generations.
    That’s not really happening, and there’s enough blame to go around for pretty much everyone to have a slice.

  299. I must be missing something here.
    I would agree. I would also posit that you have not spent a lot of time reading up on the Palestinian point of view wrt this whole tragedy.
    The fact that Israeli arabs can vote does little to accurately describe their actual existing civic situation since 1948.
    They are not full civic citizens as is commonly understood in the great and good USA.
    See here for example. For a more militant take, try this.

  300. I must be missing something here.
    I would agree. I would also posit that you have not spent a lot of time reading up on the Palestinian point of view wrt this whole tragedy.
    The fact that Israeli arabs can vote does little to accurately describe their actual existing civic situation since 1948.
    They are not full civic citizens as is commonly understood in the great and good USA.
    See here for example. For a more militant take, try this.

  303. Sorry, earlier, WJ asked about Trump bailing out the Chinese company. One thing that was a problem (and makes it understandable why some of Trump’s military advisers might have actually been encouraging him to do this) is that if the company had gone under, China would have been encouraged to nationalize their talent by bringing them into the quasi-military sector. Imagine Google or Facebook were going under and someone had the great idea of hiring all their engineers to help with various military computer applications.
    a few links
    https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/2/17310870/pentagon-ban-huawei-zte-phones-retail-stores-military-bases
    https://www.economist.com/china/2018/05/03/when-china-and-america-spar-over-technology-it-is-about-far-more
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/oct/08/china-huawei-zte-security-threat
    However, I feel pretty certain that Trump and his core of advisors was not thinking about this, they were pushed by Trump because he was bribed.
    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/05/is-china-straight-up-bribing-donald-trump-zte
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/05/15/just-about-everything-is-odd-about-trumps-support-of-chinese-firm-zte/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e661778ff5da

  304. Sorry, earlier, WJ asked about Trump bailing out the Chinese company. One thing that was a problem (and makes it understandable why some of Trump’s military advisers might have actually been encouraging him to do this) is that if the company had gone under, China would have been encouraged to nationalize their talent by bringing them into the quasi-military sector. Imagine Google or Facebook were going under and someone had the great idea of hiring all their engineers to help with various military computer applications.
    a few links
    https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/2/17310870/pentagon-ban-huawei-zte-phones-retail-stores-military-bases
    https://www.economist.com/china/2018/05/03/when-china-and-america-spar-over-technology-it-is-about-far-more
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/oct/08/china-huawei-zte-security-threat
    However, I feel pretty certain that Trump and his core of advisors was not thinking about this, they were pushed by Trump because he was bribed.
    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/05/is-china-straight-up-bribing-donald-trump-zte
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/05/15/just-about-everything-is-odd-about-trumps-support-of-chinese-firm-zte/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e661778ff5da

  305. They are not full civic citizens as is commonly understood in the great and good USA.
    Bobby, I read your first article. I must be exceptionally dense today, for I’m not seeing where they are “not full civic citizens.” The closest I see is that the parties which are primarily made up of Arab Israelis haven’t been part of a government. Also Arab Israelis are not subject to compulsory military service (although they can serve and some do); but then, so de facto are Orthodox Jews.
    I note that, in the US, neither the Libertarian nor Green parties have been part of a government (e.g. had members elected to Congress and part of the majority party caucus). Does that mean that their members are somehow not full civic citizens?
    Is there discrimination? Sure. Ask folks here if you think the US lacks that problem for various segments of the population. (Just which segments is a matter of some dispute. 😉

  306. They are not full civic citizens as is commonly understood in the great and good USA.
    Bobby, I read your first article. I must be exceptionally dense today, for I’m not seeing where they are “not full civic citizens.” The closest I see is that the parties which are primarily made up of Arab Israelis haven’t been part of a government. Also Arab Israelis are not subject to compulsory military service (although they can serve and some do); but then, so de facto are Orthodox Jews.
    I note that, in the US, neither the Libertarian nor Green parties have been part of a government (e.g. had members elected to Congress and part of the majority party caucus). Does that mean that their members are somehow not full civic citizens?
    Is there discrimination? Sure. Ask folks here if you think the US lacks that problem for various segments of the population. (Just which segments is a matter of some dispute. 😉

  309. This raised comment on LGM might be of interest.
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/05/problem-voters-dont-want-another-path
    I tend towards this position. I also see sapient’s point that the Democratic support for Israel was largely because it was assumed that it would never come to pass. This comment from the above post
    Like I said in the last thread, the price of entering into an alliance with right-wing Christian fanatics in America is one that the Israeli far right doesn’t believe they’ll ever have to pay. It’s like if a stranger offered me ten million dollars on the condition that if I ever go to Dagobah I promise to eat Yoda’s gross stew. I’m taking the money.
    The same applies to Dems who kowtow to AIPAC. Unfortunately, I have a bad feeling we are going to know exactly what Yoda’s stew tastes like.

  310. This raised comment on LGM might be of interest.
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/05/problem-voters-dont-want-another-path
    I tend towards this position. I also see sapient’s point that the Democratic support for Israel was largely because it was assumed that it would never come to pass. This comment from the above post
    Like I said in the last thread, the price of entering into an alliance with right-wing Christian fanatics in America is one that the Israeli far right doesn’t believe they’ll ever have to pay. It’s like if a stranger offered me ten million dollars on the condition that if I ever go to Dagobah I promise to eat Yoda’s gross stew. I’m taking the money.
    The same applies to Dems who kowtow to AIPAC. Unfortunately, I have a bad feeling we are going to know exactly what Yoda’s stew tastes like.

  311. ” I have a bad feeling we are going to know exactly what Yoda’s stew tastes like.”
    Swamp drainings.

  312. ” I have a bad feeling we are going to know exactly what Yoda’s stew tastes like.”
    Swamp drainings.

  313. LRB published this useful piece by Henry Siegman
    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n10/henry-siegman/two-terrorisms
    On the both sides question, it would be helpful if people stopped thinking the US was an honest broker. By being such a moron, Trump has pretty much buried that notion once and for all. But we were never an honest broker. The only President I could ever truly imagine even trying to be one would be Carter. As ex President, he write that very prescient book Peace or Apartheid back in 2006 and was blasted for it.
    But it is just factually not helpful to approach every issue from the viewpoint that it is a morality play involving Democrats vs Republicans. That’s appropriate if we are talking about which party to vote for or if someone wants to argue for voting Green, but that isn’t my point or anyone’s point here. And anyway, yes, as is usually the case, Republicans are worse on this issue.

  314. LRB published this useful piece by Henry Siegman
    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n10/henry-siegman/two-terrorisms
    On the both sides question, it would be helpful if people stopped thinking the US was an honest broker. By being such a moron, Trump has pretty much buried that notion once and for all. But we were never an honest broker. The only President I could ever truly imagine even trying to be one would be Carter. As ex President, he write that very prescient book Peace or Apartheid back in 2006 and was blasted for it.
    But it is just factually not helpful to approach every issue from the viewpoint that it is a morality play involving Democrats vs Republicans. That’s appropriate if we are talking about which party to vote for or if someone wants to argue for voting Green, but that isn’t my point or anyone’s point here. And anyway, yes, as is usually the case, Republicans are worse on this issue.

  315. On making it stop (circling back to the title of this post).
    janie’s link is to an article discussing the idea that what trump voters want from the rest of us is respect.
    what is it that i am supposed to respect?
    how exactly is that respect supposed to be demonstrated?
    i think trump voters made a truly crappy choice. and. in many cases, for not such great reasons. so i’m not sure what, exactly, i’m supposed to do with all of that.
    i respect people’s right to vote for who they wish. i also respect my own right to find others’ choices to be foolish and reckless.
    and they should respect my right to that opinion, it seems to me. two way street. right?
    we’re told that if we don’t show sufficient respect, they will go and vote for trump again.
    well, you voted for him last time, so? is this some kind of weird exercise in hostage taking?
    be nice to us, or the nation gets it again?
    how is that attitude supposed to inspire anything resembling respect from me?

  316. On making it stop (circling back to the title of this post).
    janie’s link is to an article discussing the idea that what trump voters want from the rest of us is respect.
    what is it that i am supposed to respect?
    how exactly is that respect supposed to be demonstrated?
    i think trump voters made a truly crappy choice. and. in many cases, for not such great reasons. so i’m not sure what, exactly, i’m supposed to do with all of that.
    i respect people’s right to vote for who they wish. i also respect my own right to find others’ choices to be foolish and reckless.
    and they should respect my right to that opinion, it seems to me. two way street. right?
    we’re told that if we don’t show sufficient respect, they will go and vote for trump again.
    well, you voted for him last time, so? is this some kind of weird exercise in hostage taking?
    be nice to us, or the nation gets it again?
    how is that attitude supposed to inspire anything resembling respect from me?

  317. “And anyway, yes, as is usually the case, Republicans are worse on this issue.”
    How? The vote in the Senate was 90-0. But somehow the Democrats voted that way because they dudnt bieve it would happen while Republicans really meant their vote? Karen Gillibrand sponsored and pushed the resolution.
    For a change they were all on the same side, they all suck or they’re all heroes. Live with it.

  318. “And anyway, yes, as is usually the case, Republicans are worse on this issue.”
    How? The vote in the Senate was 90-0. But somehow the Democrats voted that way because they dudnt bieve it would happen while Republicans really meant their vote? Karen Gillibrand sponsored and pushed the resolution.
    For a change they were all on the same side, they all suck or they’re all heroes. Live with it.

  319. But it is just factually not helpful to approach every issue from the viewpoint that it is a morality play involving Democrats vs Republicans
    sapient, perhaps, is an unabashed (D) partisan. and i’m not saying that as a criticism of sapient, we all have a point of view.
    other than that, i’m not sure who you are addressing with this point.
    US foreign policy has been tremendously favorable to Israel, and generally unfavorable to the Palestinians. not always, and not on every point, but generally. by definition, that excludes honest brokerage. we have a favorite.

  320. But it is just factually not helpful to approach every issue from the viewpoint that it is a morality play involving Democrats vs Republicans
    sapient, perhaps, is an unabashed (D) partisan. and i’m not saying that as a criticism of sapient, we all have a point of view.
    other than that, i’m not sure who you are addressing with this point.
    US foreign policy has been tremendously favorable to Israel, and generally unfavorable to the Palestinians. not always, and not on every point, but generally. by definition, that excludes honest brokerage. we have a favorite.

  321. For a change they were all on the same side, they all suck or they’re all heroes.
    they all suck.
    bad call. solves nothing. makes nothing better, makes many things worse. sheer pandering on their part.
    on this, they all suck.
    we all get to live with it, but folks on the ground in israel and gaza and the west bank more so than most.

  322. For a change they were all on the same side, they all suck or they’re all heroes.
    they all suck.
    bad call. solves nothing. makes nothing better, makes many things worse. sheer pandering on their part.
    on this, they all suck.
    we all get to live with it, but folks on the ground in israel and gaza and the west bank more so than most.

  323. I see that the so-called-liberal MSM is ramping up again the argument that “those mean coastal elitists FORCED Hartlandt Amerikans to vote for Trump!”
    I confess. I was a TOTAL meany. I held a pistol to their heads and FORCED them to vote for Trump.
    I regret doing that now.
    I should have pulled the damned trigger, instead.

  324. I see that the so-called-liberal MSM is ramping up again the argument that “those mean coastal elitists FORCED Hartlandt Amerikans to vote for Trump!”
    I confess. I was a TOTAL meany. I held a pistol to their heads and FORCED them to vote for Trump.
    I regret doing that now.
    I should have pulled the damned trigger, instead.

  325. wj,
    The first article was an introduction. I suggest again that you familiarize yourself with the writings of those who take exception to your understanding.
    google “Iraeli arabs + second class citizens.”
    Thanks.

  326. wj,
    The first article was an introduction. I suggest again that you familiarize yourself with the writings of those who take exception to your understanding.
    google “Iraeli arabs + second class citizens.”
    Thanks.

  327. We Americans gave up the ghost on even-handedness in Palestine when we allowed “Judeo-Christian” to become a non-risible term in our public discourse.
    The Troubles in the Middle East will not end before religion ceases to be taken seriously — over here as well as over there. They may not end then, either; it’s a necessary but possibly not a sufficient condition.
    Alas, we will not find out in our lifetimes. The one thing to which “both sides do it” will apply until we are all comfortably dead is an unhealthy obeisance to religion.
    –TP

  328. We Americans gave up the ghost on even-handedness in Palestine when we allowed “Judeo-Christian” to become a non-risible term in our public discourse.
    The Troubles in the Middle East will not end before religion ceases to be taken seriously — over here as well as over there. They may not end then, either; it’s a necessary but possibly not a sufficient condition.
    Alas, we will not find out in our lifetimes. The one thing to which “both sides do it” will apply until we are all comfortably dead is an unhealthy obeisance to religion.
    –TP

  331. “Judeo-Christians”. Jeebus. And Jeffress, a guy who preaches Jews are
    going to Hell, gives a prayer at the opening of the embassy.
    Here are John Judis’ thoughts on Israel at 70.
    Did you see the photograph of Jared Kushner in Jerusalem? Is there any image of him that doesn’t make your skin crawl?
    I miss my mother, but I’m glad she didn’t live to see this.

  332. “Judeo-Christians”. Jeebus. And Jeffress, a guy who preaches Jews are
    going to Hell, gives a prayer at the opening of the embassy.
    Here are John Judis’ thoughts on Israel at 70.
    Did you see the photograph of Jared Kushner in Jerusalem? Is there any image of him that doesn’t make your skin crawl?
    I miss my mother, but I’m glad she didn’t live to see this.

  333. we’re told that if we don’t show sufficient respect, they will go and vote for trump again.
    well, you voted for him last time, so? is this some kind of weird exercise in hostage taking?
    be nice to us, or the nation gets it again?
    It sounds like “If we don’t get what we want/think we deserve, we’ll shoot ourselves in the (other) foot next!” Right out of Blazing Saddles, but without the amusement factor.

  334. we’re told that if we don’t show sufficient respect, they will go and vote for trump again.
    well, you voted for him last time, so? is this some kind of weird exercise in hostage taking?
    be nice to us, or the nation gets it again?
    It sounds like “If we don’t get what we want/think we deserve, we’ll shoot ourselves in the (other) foot next!” Right out of Blazing Saddles, but without the amusement factor.

  339. The Troubles in the Middle East will not end before religion ceases to be taken seriously
    or, before it actually *is* taken seriously.
    not disputing your point tony, just affirming it from another perspective.

  340. The Troubles in the Middle East will not end before religion ceases to be taken seriously
    or, before it actually *is* taken seriously.
    not disputing your point tony, just affirming it from another perspective.

  343. Thanks, ral, for the Judis article. It begins, “When I start railing about Israel’s government — he’s “Netanyahoo” as far as I am concerned — some of my co-religionists chide me for singling out Israel and exempting Putin’s Russia or Xi Jinping’s China from my complaints. My usual reply is that as a Jew I feel morally complicit in what Israel’s government does; I don’t feel that way about what Putin or Xi does.”
    Unfortunately, as Americans, we should perhaps start feeling morally complicit in what Putin does, since some of us elected his agent.

  344. Thanks, ral, for the Judis article. It begins, “When I start railing about Israel’s government — he’s “Netanyahoo” as far as I am concerned — some of my co-religionists chide me for singling out Israel and exempting Putin’s Russia or Xi Jinping’s China from my complaints. My usual reply is that as a Jew I feel morally complicit in what Israel’s government does; I don’t feel that way about what Putin or Xi does.”
    Unfortunately, as Americans, we should perhaps start feeling morally complicit in what Putin does, since some of us elected his agent.

  345. From JanieM’s link:

    In the world Republicans have constructed, a Democrat who wants to give you health care and a higher wage is disrespectful, while a Republican who opposes those things but engages in a vigorous round of campaign race-baiting is respectful. The person who’s holding you back isn’t the politician who just voted to give a trillion-dollar tax break to the wealthy and corporations, it’s an East Coast college professor who said something condescending on Twitter.

    This is how we got Putin, er … I mean, Trump voters.

  346. From JanieM’s link:

    In the world Republicans have constructed, a Democrat who wants to give you health care and a higher wage is disrespectful, while a Republican who opposes those things but engages in a vigorous round of campaign race-baiting is respectful. The person who’s holding you back isn’t the politician who just voted to give a trillion-dollar tax break to the wealthy and corporations, it’s an East Coast college professor who said something condescending on Twitter.

    This is how we got Putin, er … I mean, Trump voters.

  347. so i’m not sure what, exactly, i’m supposed to do with all of that.
    recognize them as your betters. give them everything they want. and keep quiet about it.

  348. so i’m not sure what, exactly, i’m supposed to do with all of that.
    recognize them as your betters. give them everything they want. and keep quiet about it.

  351. recognize them as your betters. give them everything they want. and keep quiet about it.
    I’ve tried that. It does not work, either.

  352. recognize them as your betters. give them everything they want. and keep quiet about it.
    I’ve tried that. It does not work, either.

  355. so i’m not sure what, exactly, i’m supposed to do with all of that.
    Well, you are not going to be able to talk your way out of it, so of course Clinton Democrats are at a loss.
    The wealth, culture, good jobs, important educational and media institutions, financial centers and gov’t offices etc are mostly on the coasts. Or metropoles.
    Fix this.

  356. so i’m not sure what, exactly, i’m supposed to do with all of that.
    Well, you are not going to be able to talk your way out of it, so of course Clinton Democrats are at a loss.
    The wealth, culture, good jobs, important educational and media institutions, financial centers and gov’t offices etc are mostly on the coasts. Or metropoles.
    Fix this.

  357. Fix this.
    Or maybe you can ask some of your entrepreneurial friends to build start ups in racist backwaters?

  358. Fix this.
    Or maybe you can ask some of your entrepreneurial friends to build start ups in racist backwaters?

  359. As an example, over at the bad place someone said close to:”Populism has always been about racism.”
    And I’m like, WJ Bryan’s “Cross of Gold” speech was a total dog-whistle to the KKK? Had nothing to do with grain prices and debts?
    But there is an fine example as to how coasters suppressed flyovers.
    Cross of Gold equals predictable low inflation, favors finance, real estate, companies who hoard their money instead of buying equipment, mergers, takeovers, etc.
    The regime we have been in since the early eighties, that period of the hollowing out of the middle class etc etc and the successful liberation movements and gross empowerment of Ivy Leaguers. Just…lots of stuff.
    Also according to Hodgson, Luxemberg, Hilferding, and Lenin for the Old Ones, imperialism and war, but we have kinds known that since Thucydides.
    Athenians telling the Milesians that at least they aren’t helots. Spartans are so much worse!!! Then killing them all.

  360. As an example, over at the bad place someone said close to:”Populism has always been about racism.”
    And I’m like, WJ Bryan’s “Cross of Gold” speech was a total dog-whistle to the KKK? Had nothing to do with grain prices and debts?
    But there is an fine example as to how coasters suppressed flyovers.
    Cross of Gold equals predictable low inflation, favors finance, real estate, companies who hoard their money instead of buying equipment, mergers, takeovers, etc.
    The regime we have been in since the early eighties, that period of the hollowing out of the middle class etc etc and the successful liberation movements and gross empowerment of Ivy Leaguers. Just…lots of stuff.
    Also according to Hodgson, Luxemberg, Hilferding, and Lenin for the Old Ones, imperialism and war, but we have kinds known that since Thucydides.
    Athenians telling the Milesians that at least they aren’t helots. Spartans are so much worse!!! Then killing them all.

  361. Or maybe you can ask some of your entrepreneurial friends to build start ups in racist backwaters?
    That’s where net federal dollars flow from the coasts and the metropoles to, so it should be pretty easy, right?
    Snark aside, I don’t really mind money flowing to those places. They need it. I just wish it would be used to create conditions that would allow those places not to need those federal dollars in the future. I’m not sure what I’m doing here in New Jersey to hold people in, say, Alabama back.

  362. Or maybe you can ask some of your entrepreneurial friends to build start ups in racist backwaters?
    That’s where net federal dollars flow from the coasts and the metropoles to, so it should be pretty easy, right?
    Snark aside, I don’t really mind money flowing to those places. They need it. I just wish it would be used to create conditions that would allow those places not to need those federal dollars in the future. I’m not sure what I’m doing here in New Jersey to hold people in, say, Alabama back.

  363. The wealth, culture, good jobs, important educational and media institutions, financial centers and gov’t offices etc are mostly on the coasts. Or metropoles.
    Nice catch with “or metropoles”.
    I make pretty good money. I live in a place that costs a lot to live. My basic quality of life is about the same as somebody who lives in, for example, northeast OH, or AZ, or FL, and who makes about half of what I make.
    I know this because I have family in OH, and AZ, and FL.
    So, WTF.
    Check out who the largest employers in the US are, and where they are located.
    Check out where retail and consumer goods is mostly located as an industry.
    Check out where agriculture, mining, oil and gas are located as industries.
    You say JP Morgan, I say Exxon Mobil. You say Wall St, I say Irving TX.
    Enough of this stupid victim bullshit. There’s a point in what you say, but it ain’t about geography.

  364. The wealth, culture, good jobs, important educational and media institutions, financial centers and gov’t offices etc are mostly on the coasts. Or metropoles.
    Nice catch with “or metropoles”.
    I make pretty good money. I live in a place that costs a lot to live. My basic quality of life is about the same as somebody who lives in, for example, northeast OH, or AZ, or FL, and who makes about half of what I make.
    I know this because I have family in OH, and AZ, and FL.
    So, WTF.
    Check out who the largest employers in the US are, and where they are located.
    Check out where retail and consumer goods is mostly located as an industry.
    Check out where agriculture, mining, oil and gas are located as industries.
    You say JP Morgan, I say Exxon Mobil. You say Wall St, I say Irving TX.
    Enough of this stupid victim bullshit. There’s a point in what you say, but it ain’t about geography.

  365. “Enough of this stupid victim bullshit. There’s a point in what you say, but it ain’t about geography.”
    Dunno. Might be something in the water.
    Probably not LEAD so much as “essence of FoxNews”. Still causes severe brain damage.

  366. “Enough of this stupid victim bullshit. There’s a point in what you say, but it ain’t about geography.”
    Dunno. Might be something in the water.
    Probably not LEAD so much as “essence of FoxNews”. Still causes severe brain damage.

  367. Simply reverse continental drift, so North America gets its interior ocean back. Then a large part of the flyoverniks will have become coasties too. Either they will kill themselves out of self-hatred or go to war with the inhabitants of the new Eastern and Western Flyover regions.

  368. Simply reverse continental drift, so North America gets its interior ocean back. Then a large part of the flyoverniks will have become coasties too. Either they will kill themselves out of self-hatred or go to war with the inhabitants of the new Eastern and Western Flyover regions.

  369. The Troubles in the Middle East will not end before religion ceases to be taken seriously
    or, before it actually *is* taken seriously.
    not disputing your point tony, just affirming it from another perspective.
    Posted by: russell | May 16, 2018 at 07:05 AM

    I’m sorry to say it, russell, but I don’t know how people can take their religion more seriously than to be willing to die — or kill — for it.
    Equating the religion of your grandparents to the religion of a stranger’s grandparents and equating both to a harmless yearning for goodness and compassion is not taking religion seriously. It is a commendable attitude, but it is closer to apostasy than to piety.
    –TP

  370. The Troubles in the Middle East will not end before religion ceases to be taken seriously
    or, before it actually *is* taken seriously.
    not disputing your point tony, just affirming it from another perspective.
    Posted by: russell | May 16, 2018 at 07:05 AM

    I’m sorry to say it, russell, but I don’t know how people can take their religion more seriously than to be willing to die — or kill — for it.
    Equating the religion of your grandparents to the religion of a stranger’s grandparents and equating both to a harmless yearning for goodness and compassion is not taking religion seriously. It is a commendable attitude, but it is closer to apostasy than to piety.
    –TP

  371. The wealth, culture, good jobs, important educational and media institutions, financial centers and gov’t offices etc are mostly on the coasts. Or metropoles.
    Fix this.
    That might actually be possible. Think about all the states going thru incredible contortions trying to attract the next Amazon (or whoever) facility. Suppose Wyoming or Idaho won. A couple of those could, given the low native population, drastically remake their polity and culture. (Note that there are still huge areas of California which are lightly populated and culturally nothing like LA or San Francisco. But they don’t drive how the state is run.)
    Of course, it would be seen as an attack. But sometimes co-opting the opposition is a good tactic.

  372. The wealth, culture, good jobs, important educational and media institutions, financial centers and gov’t offices etc are mostly on the coasts. Or metropoles.
    Fix this.
    That might actually be possible. Think about all the states going thru incredible contortions trying to attract the next Amazon (or whoever) facility. Suppose Wyoming or Idaho won. A couple of those could, given the low native population, drastically remake their polity and culture. (Note that there are still huge areas of California which are lightly populated and culturally nothing like LA or San Francisco. But they don’t drive how the state is run.)
    Of course, it would be seen as an attack. But sometimes co-opting the opposition is a good tactic.

  373. I’m sorry to say it, russell, but I don’t know how people can take their religion more seriously than to be willing to die — or kill — for it.
    A really, really good start would be to start paying attention to the parts which talk about kindness, being good to strangers, etc.
    In my observation, people who decide to kill “for their religion” start from wanting to kill people, and cherry-pick from their religion to justify doing what they want to do anyway. Which isn’t my idea of taking your religion seriously.

  374. I’m sorry to say it, russell, but I don’t know how people can take their religion more seriously than to be willing to die — or kill — for it.
    A really, really good start would be to start paying attention to the parts which talk about kindness, being good to strangers, etc.
    In my observation, people who decide to kill “for their religion” start from wanting to kill people, and cherry-pick from their religion to justify doing what they want to do anyway. Which isn’t my idea of taking your religion seriously.

  375. In my observation, people who decide to kill “for their religion” start from wanting to kill people, and cherry-pick from their religion to justify doing what they want to do anyway.
    Or they’re largely ignorant of whatever religion and only recently started being “religious,” leaving the cherry-picking to someone else who is using them as a soldier or suicide bomber.

  376. In my observation, people who decide to kill “for their religion” start from wanting to kill people, and cherry-pick from their religion to justify doing what they want to do anyway.
    Or they’re largely ignorant of whatever religion and only recently started being “religious,” leaving the cherry-picking to someone else who is using them as a soldier or suicide bomber.

  377. This, from our local paper:

    The Senate Intelligence Committee has determined that the intelligence community was correct in assessing that Russia meddled in the 2016 U.S. election with the aim of helping then-candidate Donald Trump, contradicting findings House Republicans reached last month.
    “Our staff concluded that the [intelligence community’s] conclusions were accurate and on point,” the panel’s vice chairman, Sen. Mark Warner, D-Va., said Wednesday in a joint statement with Sen. Richard Burr, R-N.C., its chairman. “The Russian effort was extensive, sophisticated, and ordered by President Putin himself for the purpose of helping Donald Trump and hurting Hillary Clinton,” Warner continued. [emphasis added]

    Note, all you guys who are down on Republicans across the board, that this was a joint statement from the Republican chair and the Democratic vice-chair.
    Anyone want to bet on how long until the outraged tweets from the White House start?

  378. This, from our local paper:

    The Senate Intelligence Committee has determined that the intelligence community was correct in assessing that Russia meddled in the 2016 U.S. election with the aim of helping then-candidate Donald Trump, contradicting findings House Republicans reached last month.
    “Our staff concluded that the [intelligence community’s] conclusions were accurate and on point,” the panel’s vice chairman, Sen. Mark Warner, D-Va., said Wednesday in a joint statement with Sen. Richard Burr, R-N.C., its chairman. “The Russian effort was extensive, sophisticated, and ordered by President Putin himself for the purpose of helping Donald Trump and hurting Hillary Clinton,” Warner continued. [emphasis added]

    Note, all you guys who are down on Republicans across the board, that this was a joint statement from the Republican chair and the Democratic vice-chair.
    Anyone want to bet on how long until the outraged tweets from the White House start?

  379. Simply reverse continental drift, so North America gets its interior ocean back.
    might be easier to build a very large dam across the Mississippi, somewhere in northern Louisiana.

  380. Simply reverse continental drift, so North America gets its interior ocean back.
    might be easier to build a very large dam across the Mississippi, somewhere in northern Louisiana.

  381. Note, all you guys who are down on Republicans across the board, that this was a joint statement from the Republican chair and the Democratic vice-chair.
    I was happy to see this, wj. I’m wondering whether some of that cooperation came at the price of Warner’s vote for Haspel.

  382. Note, all you guys who are down on Republicans across the board, that this was a joint statement from the Republican chair and the Democratic vice-chair.
    I was happy to see this, wj. I’m wondering whether some of that cooperation came at the price of Warner’s vote for Haspel.

  383. Enough of this stupid victim bullshit.
    Funny, I get in trouble when I say this as in, “For F sake, an old man tickled you in front of a crowd. Deal”
    But our folk are good and true and brave, and Mississippians are just bad people, who deserve to suffer and die, and just shut up about it. They’re oppressing me with their victim bullshit, and I’m the real victim for having to listen.
    Why do you listen anyway? I don’t.

  384. Enough of this stupid victim bullshit.
    Funny, I get in trouble when I say this as in, “For F sake, an old man tickled you in front of a crowd. Deal”
    But our folk are good and true and brave, and Mississippians are just bad people, who deserve to suffer and die, and just shut up about it. They’re oppressing me with their victim bullshit, and I’m the real victim for having to listen.
    Why do you listen anyway? I don’t.

  387. But our folk are good and true and brave, and Mississippians are just bad people, who deserve to suffer and die, and just shut up about it.
    Yeah, except Democrats are generally more apt to making policies that prevent suffering and dying, so I’m sure who “our folk” are. And I’m pretty sure no one here ever said anything remotely like people in Mississippi should suffer and die.
    Also, too, I don’t claim to be a victim of mean Trump voters. I only point out the hypocrisy of demanding respect without giving any. I imagine others here would say the same.

  388. But our folk are good and true and brave, and Mississippians are just bad people, who deserve to suffer and die, and just shut up about it.
    Yeah, except Democrats are generally more apt to making policies that prevent suffering and dying, so I’m sure who “our folk” are. And I’m pretty sure no one here ever said anything remotely like people in Mississippi should suffer and die.
    Also, too, I don’t claim to be a victim of mean Trump voters. I only point out the hypocrisy of demanding respect without giving any. I imagine others here would say the same.

  393. wj: A really, really good start would be to start paying attention to the parts which talk about kindness, being good to strangers, etc.
    That would be some good cherry-picking, no doubt.
    Sort of like picking out the occasional example of Republican decency and using it to justify the continued existence of the GOP 🙂
    My point is that decent Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Republicans are decent in the same way as decent atheists are, but they don’t get to define Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or Republicanism. The fundamentalists and the extremists have a say too, and they can point to the same Scriptures as the decent people profess (or pretend) to revere.
    All religions may contain teachings which amount to some version of The Golden Rule, but they each contain some other precepts — otherwise they would not be distinct religions. I claim that a withering-away of religion would leave The Golden Rule intact, while reducing the True Believers (and their Scriptural claims to land, or supremacy, or authority) to a laughingstock, more pitied than feared.
    –TP

  394. wj: A really, really good start would be to start paying attention to the parts which talk about kindness, being good to strangers, etc.
    That would be some good cherry-picking, no doubt.
    Sort of like picking out the occasional example of Republican decency and using it to justify the continued existence of the GOP 🙂
    My point is that decent Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Republicans are decent in the same way as decent atheists are, but they don’t get to define Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or Republicanism. The fundamentalists and the extremists have a say too, and they can point to the same Scriptures as the decent people profess (or pretend) to revere.
    All religions may contain teachings which amount to some version of The Golden Rule, but they each contain some other precepts — otherwise they would not be distinct religions. I claim that a withering-away of religion would leave The Golden Rule intact, while reducing the True Believers (and their Scriptural claims to land, or supremacy, or authority) to a laughingstock, more pitied than feared.
    –TP

  395. I’m sorry to say it, russell, but I don’t know how people can take their religion more seriously than to be willing to die — or kill — for it.
    That’s cool Tony, no worries.
    Mississippians are just bad people, who deserve to suffer and die, and just shut up about it.
    I actually have no beef with the people of MS. Not in any way that fits your characterization, anyway.
    They’re oppressing me with their victim bullshit
    As far as I can tell, ain’t nobody from MS peddling victim BS here.
    Unless… where are you from?

  396. I’m sorry to say it, russell, but I don’t know how people can take their religion more seriously than to be willing to die — or kill — for it.
    That’s cool Tony, no worries.
    Mississippians are just bad people, who deserve to suffer and die, and just shut up about it.
    I actually have no beef with the people of MS. Not in any way that fits your characterization, anyway.
    They’re oppressing me with their victim bullshit
    As far as I can tell, ain’t nobody from MS peddling victim BS here.
    Unless… where are you from?

  401. More from LGM on smug libruls:
    Why a picture of a cheesesteak at the link? It confuses me. It’s Philly, a large NE corridor city. But it’s working class food, I guess. But lots of non-white people eat them, so not necessarily white working class. And snooty kids who go to Penn eat them when they’re drunk at 2 AM, so maybe not so working class.
    Maybe they should try a corndog next time.

  402. More from LGM on smug libruls:
    Why a picture of a cheesesteak at the link? It confuses me. It’s Philly, a large NE corridor city. But it’s working class food, I guess. But lots of non-white people eat them, so not necessarily white working class. And snooty kids who go to Penn eat them when they’re drunk at 2 AM, so maybe not so working class.
    Maybe they should try a corndog next time.

  403. Why a picture of a cheesesteak at the link?
    Dude, that’s obviously a Cheez-Whiz cheesesteak. Real Americans eat Cheez-Whiz cheesesteaks. Snotty liberal faux-Americans eat cheesesteaks with Swiss or mozzarella.

  404. Why a picture of a cheesesteak at the link?
    Dude, that’s obviously a Cheez-Whiz cheesesteak. Real Americans eat Cheez-Whiz cheesesteaks. Snotty liberal faux-Americans eat cheesesteaks with Swiss or mozzarella.

  405. Snark aside, I don’t really mind money flowing to those places. They need it. I just wish it would be used to create conditions that would allow those places not to need those federal dollars in the future.
    I’ve spent essentially my entire adult life living in places that were startup hotspots and generated lots of jobs. Observations (feel free to disagree, of course):
    Somehow, one way or another, all of them had acquired an anchor. Things that served that function: a large corporation with monopoly stability; national laboratories of various sorts; and being a state capital. The anchor did more than one kind of thing in the same geographic area.
    In all cases there were one or more universities with good-or-better programs relevant to the anchor in the immediate area. In multiple cases, the anchor and the university programs swapped faculty-level folks back and forth to some extent.
    All of the areas eventually developed a service infrastructure keyed to the needs of the anchor and the university. That’s more varied than it may sound. Eg, the kind of people who work at national labs want access to local orthodontists to straighten their kids’ teeth. From what I could gather about the history in each place, the emergence of that infrastructure is when mild positive feedback kicks in.
    What I have absolutely no idea how to do is to jump-start that process, or anything like it.

  406. Snark aside, I don’t really mind money flowing to those places. They need it. I just wish it would be used to create conditions that would allow those places not to need those federal dollars in the future.
    I’ve spent essentially my entire adult life living in places that were startup hotspots and generated lots of jobs. Observations (feel free to disagree, of course):
    Somehow, one way or another, all of them had acquired an anchor. Things that served that function: a large corporation with monopoly stability; national laboratories of various sorts; and being a state capital. The anchor did more than one kind of thing in the same geographic area.
    In all cases there were one or more universities with good-or-better programs relevant to the anchor in the immediate area. In multiple cases, the anchor and the university programs swapped faculty-level folks back and forth to some extent.
    All of the areas eventually developed a service infrastructure keyed to the needs of the anchor and the university. That’s more varied than it may sound. Eg, the kind of people who work at national labs want access to local orthodontists to straighten their kids’ teeth. From what I could gather about the history in each place, the emergence of that infrastructure is when mild positive feedback kicks in.
    What I have absolutely no idea how to do is to jump-start that process, or anything like it.

  407. What I have absolutely no idea how to do is to jump-start that process, or anything like it.
    My sense is that you have to start with the college/university. Not as a specific support for something; more as a general idea of valuing education and an educated population.
    Once you’ve got that, you have a chance to jump-start the economy. Maybe someone from the university starts a company based on their PhD research. Maybe some folks come up with an idea while just sitting chatting — bright people playing with new ideas. Probably several of the above. But one (or more) of those takes off — that’s where the “anchor” comes from.
    It probably doesn’t happen fast. Unless you get lucky on some existing anchor-type company deciding to expand into your area because costs are low there. But once it happens, folks from there not only, as Michael says, switch back and forth between the anchor and the university, they move along to start their own companies. (As an example, see how many IT companies in Silicon Valley can trace their lineage, sometimes in a dozen or more steps, back to Hewlett Packard.)
    But it all traces back to a community (or state, if you will) deciding that they care about educating their people. And educating them in something that is firmly grounded in the real world.

  408. What I have absolutely no idea how to do is to jump-start that process, or anything like it.
    My sense is that you have to start with the college/university. Not as a specific support for something; more as a general idea of valuing education and an educated population.
    Once you’ve got that, you have a chance to jump-start the economy. Maybe someone from the university starts a company based on their PhD research. Maybe some folks come up with an idea while just sitting chatting — bright people playing with new ideas. Probably several of the above. But one (or more) of those takes off — that’s where the “anchor” comes from.
    It probably doesn’t happen fast. Unless you get lucky on some existing anchor-type company deciding to expand into your area because costs are low there. But once it happens, folks from there not only, as Michael says, switch back and forth between the anchor and the university, they move along to start their own companies. (As an example, see how many IT companies in Silicon Valley can trace their lineage, sometimes in a dozen or more steps, back to Hewlett Packard.)
    But it all traces back to a community (or state, if you will) deciding that they care about educating their people. And educating them in something that is firmly grounded in the real world.

  409. I suppose that the cheese steak is a reference to Kerry’s ordering the sandwich with swiss.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2003/08/13/steak-raises-stakes-for-kerry-in-philly/f59dd0f7-20fc-4309-85fc-ac63cec7a123/?utm_term=.18a80a52f88d
    So yeah, as the post says
    And, as David Roberts notes in this thread, the mainstream media is also strongly committed to the narrative that liberals are coffee-drinking, mustard-using urban elitists. It’s baked in.
    Johnny Unbeatable fantasies aside, there is no Democratic presidential nominee who will be able to go through an entire campaign without saying something that can be yanked out of context or ordering a salad with anything in it but iceberg lettuce or something else that can be used repeatedly to show that he or she despises white working class voters. Emperor Perez cannot impose message discipline that prevents any college sophomore from heckling a professional conservative race-baiter or calling the poke special at the cafeteria cultural appropriation. The only winning move is not to play.
    Speaking of cultural appropriation, while I tell my students I’m from Mississippi, it’s a bit more complicated than that, My family moved to Mississippi when I was in JHS and I went to uni there. In addition, we lived on the Mississippi Gulf Coast so I’d probably be referred to as a dreggy coast rat rather than a Mississippian. In addition, we moved from the North, so I’m still a damn Yankee. I would not be surprised if most of the folks here don’t really have a hometown, and only say they are ‘from’ a place out of convenience.

  410. I suppose that the cheese steak is a reference to Kerry’s ordering the sandwich with swiss.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2003/08/13/steak-raises-stakes-for-kerry-in-philly/f59dd0f7-20fc-4309-85fc-ac63cec7a123/?utm_term=.18a80a52f88d
    So yeah, as the post says
    And, as David Roberts notes in this thread, the mainstream media is also strongly committed to the narrative that liberals are coffee-drinking, mustard-using urban elitists. It’s baked in.
    Johnny Unbeatable fantasies aside, there is no Democratic presidential nominee who will be able to go through an entire campaign without saying something that can be yanked out of context or ordering a salad with anything in it but iceberg lettuce or something else that can be used repeatedly to show that he or she despises white working class voters. Emperor Perez cannot impose message discipline that prevents any college sophomore from heckling a professional conservative race-baiter or calling the poke special at the cafeteria cultural appropriation. The only winning move is not to play.
    Speaking of cultural appropriation, while I tell my students I’m from Mississippi, it’s a bit more complicated than that, My family moved to Mississippi when I was in JHS and I went to uni there. In addition, we lived on the Mississippi Gulf Coast so I’d probably be referred to as a dreggy coast rat rather than a Mississippian. In addition, we moved from the North, so I’m still a damn Yankee. I would not be surprised if most of the folks here don’t really have a hometown, and only say they are ‘from’ a place out of convenience.

  411. I would not be surprised if most of the folks here don’t really have a hometown, and only say they are ‘from’ a place out of convenience.
    Certainly I have always been an anomaly, especially among Californians, because I am actually living in the town that I grew up in (the whole time from birth thru high school). Of course, it was a little farm town back then (pop 2000), and now it’s a suburb (pop 50000+). But it’s the same location. Very odd.

  412. I would not be surprised if most of the folks here don’t really have a hometown, and only say they are ‘from’ a place out of convenience.
    Certainly I have always been an anomaly, especially among Californians, because I am actually living in the town that I grew up in (the whole time from birth thru high school). Of course, it was a little farm town back then (pop 2000), and now it’s a suburb (pop 50000+). But it’s the same location. Very odd.

  413. I would not be surprised if most of the folks here don’t really have a hometown, and only say they are ‘from’ a place out of convenience.
    That’s interesting. I’d be curious to see how many people moved around when they were kids, and how many were relatively stationary.
    By my definition of “hometown” I have one: it’s in Ohio, and I spent the first 18 1/2 years of my life there. I never lived there after that, but I go there once or twice a year because I still have family there, and I could still find my way around in my sleep.
    My definition of being “from” someplace is a little more wobbly. In one sense I’m “from” Ohio, but since I’ve lived 46 of my 68 years in New England, the past 31 of them in Maine, I tend to say I’m “from Maine” when meeting new people, and “I grew up in Ohio” to mean the other thing. (To true Mainers I’m of course “from away,” not from Maine.)
    Unlike wj’s, my hometown has lost about a third of its population since I was a kid. Northeastern Ohio has not been a hotbed of economic development in those decades, to put it mildly.

  414. I would not be surprised if most of the folks here don’t really have a hometown, and only say they are ‘from’ a place out of convenience.
    That’s interesting. I’d be curious to see how many people moved around when they were kids, and how many were relatively stationary.
    By my definition of “hometown” I have one: it’s in Ohio, and I spent the first 18 1/2 years of my life there. I never lived there after that, but I go there once or twice a year because I still have family there, and I could still find my way around in my sleep.
    My definition of being “from” someplace is a little more wobbly. In one sense I’m “from” Ohio, but since I’ve lived 46 of my 68 years in New England, the past 31 of them in Maine, I tend to say I’m “from Maine” when meeting new people, and “I grew up in Ohio” to mean the other thing. (To true Mainers I’m of course “from away,” not from Maine.)
    Unlike wj’s, my hometown has lost about a third of its population since I was a kid. Northeastern Ohio has not been a hotbed of economic development in those decades, to put it mildly.

  415. More details about me. Elementary school was in Prince George country, MD, an area which, because the DC metro line terminus was located in Montgomery county rather than PG county in the 80’s, property values dictated that African Americans moved to PG county while more affluent whites moved to Montgomery county after we had moved away. When I went to a conference in DC about 25 years ago, I rented a car and went back to my old neighborhood. I was shocked that I had enough memory (muscle memory, I suppose) to remember where I was going, based on trips in the back of the family car. My elementary school had been turned into a community center (privatized, I think) and the JHS that I went to before I moved was now a private Christian school. So, even if I could have stayed, the place would have changed enough so I would say that I wasn’t really from there.
    I could still find my way around in my sleep.
    Janie’s comment reminds me of a passage in John Irving’s Hotel New Hampshire about Freud, a Viennese Jew who is blind and he takes the main character on a tour of Vienna, but Freud remembers the city pre-war and describes all these landmarks of Viennese Jewish life that are no longer there.
    Where you are from is usually a place that doesn’t exist anymore.

  416. More details about me. Elementary school was in Prince George country, MD, an area which, because the DC metro line terminus was located in Montgomery county rather than PG county in the 80’s, property values dictated that African Americans moved to PG county while more affluent whites moved to Montgomery county after we had moved away. When I went to a conference in DC about 25 years ago, I rented a car and went back to my old neighborhood. I was shocked that I had enough memory (muscle memory, I suppose) to remember where I was going, based on trips in the back of the family car. My elementary school had been turned into a community center (privatized, I think) and the JHS that I went to before I moved was now a private Christian school. So, even if I could have stayed, the place would have changed enough so I would say that I wasn’t really from there.
    I could still find my way around in my sleep.
    Janie’s comment reminds me of a passage in John Irving’s Hotel New Hampshire about Freud, a Viennese Jew who is blind and he takes the main character on a tour of Vienna, but Freud remembers the city pre-war and describes all these landmarks of Viennese Jewish life that are no longer there.
    Where you are from is usually a place that doesn’t exist anymore.

  417. What I have absolutely no idea how to do is to jump-start that process, or anything like it.
    it’s dead easy. go back 100, or 200, or 400 years. start a university and set up some basic infrastructure.
    then wait 100, or 200, or 400 years.
    done.
    if you need it in *your* lifetime, a much harder problem.
    I suppose that the cheese steak is a reference to Kerry’s ordering the sandwich with swiss.
    and here I thought I was making a joke.
    it’s getting harder and harder to make jokes.
    permission to speak freely: if you vote based on what somebody else is eating for lunch, you need to go sit yourself down somewhere and think some things through.
    just saying.
    I would not be surprised if most of the folks here don’t really have a hometown
    i went to a different school every year from 1st to 6th grade. in 3 different states. my sister went to 3 different schools in 6th grade.
    and my old man wasn’t even in the service.
    i’ve been living in my current house since 2002. so, 15 1/2 years.
    that is more than twice as long as I have ever lived in any other one place, in my entire life.
    I’m 61.

  418. What I have absolutely no idea how to do is to jump-start that process, or anything like it.
    it’s dead easy. go back 100, or 200, or 400 years. start a university and set up some basic infrastructure.
    then wait 100, or 200, or 400 years.
    done.
    if you need it in *your* lifetime, a much harder problem.
    I suppose that the cheese steak is a reference to Kerry’s ordering the sandwich with swiss.
    and here I thought I was making a joke.
    it’s getting harder and harder to make jokes.
    permission to speak freely: if you vote based on what somebody else is eating for lunch, you need to go sit yourself down somewhere and think some things through.
    just saying.
    I would not be surprised if most of the folks here don’t really have a hometown
    i went to a different school every year from 1st to 6th grade. in 3 different states. my sister went to 3 different schools in 6th grade.
    and my old man wasn’t even in the service.
    i’ve been living in my current house since 2002. so, 15 1/2 years.
    that is more than twice as long as I have ever lived in any other one place, in my entire life.
    I’m 61.

  419. lj: Where you are from is usually a place that doesn’t exist anymore.
    I guess this makes me an outlier. I’m from New York (City) and it’s still there (although parts have changed dramatically, Times Square for instance). Moved to Silicon Valley where the computing biz was (and is).
    Silicon Valley history is interesting. HP was there in the famous garage, but Varian Assoicates was there too. Perhaps Stanford University was the seed.

  420. lj: Where you are from is usually a place that doesn’t exist anymore.
    I guess this makes me an outlier. I’m from New York (City) and it’s still there (although parts have changed dramatically, Times Square for instance). Moved to Silicon Valley where the computing biz was (and is).
    Silicon Valley history is interesting. HP was there in the famous garage, but Varian Assoicates was there too. Perhaps Stanford University was the seed.

  421. Interesting hatefest for the “white” working class in defense of the Democratic Party. I am sorry, but for this socialist the current differences between the conservative neo-Liberal Democratic Party and the reactionary Neanderthal Republican Party is one of degree, not of kind. Both feed shark-chum to their chumps base, or better say lie, maybe pass some legislation on social issues while further sending evermore wealth to the already wealthy.
    Get mad, keep referring to the “white” working class in the same as the Southern supporters of apartheid referred to the “colored” or “negro”, or “that” word.
    As for me, I’ll just keep working to get actually leftists, and maybe some uncorrupted, honest conservatives in office.

  422. Interesting hatefest for the “white” working class in defense of the Democratic Party. I am sorry, but for this socialist the current differences between the conservative neo-Liberal Democratic Party and the reactionary Neanderthal Republican Party is one of degree, not of kind. Both feed shark-chum to their chumps base, or better say lie, maybe pass some legislation on social issues while further sending evermore wealth to the already wealthy.
    Get mad, keep referring to the “white” working class in the same as the Southern supporters of apartheid referred to the “colored” or “negro”, or “that” word.
    As for me, I’ll just keep working to get actually leftists, and maybe some uncorrupted, honest conservatives in office.

  423. I’m from New York (City) and it’s still there
    Well, sure, but NYC today and NYC 30 years ago are different enough to be different places from some (well, my) perspective. I guess one of the graces of building monumental structures (like Grand Central Station and such) is that they act as anchors for memory.
    But that anchoring of memory is a double edged sword. When I first came to Japan, Ueno Park was overrun by Iranians, because Iran and Japan had a special visa agreement. However, in 1992, there was a severe crackdown and now, not an Iranian to be found there. In my memory, I still can’t process the fact that it is so different, and if ‘your’ neighborhood suddenly changes, I have some empathy for the reaction, but really no sympathy.
    The wikipedia page about Iranians in Japan is pretty interesting
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_Japan

  424. I’m from New York (City) and it’s still there
    Well, sure, but NYC today and NYC 30 years ago are different enough to be different places from some (well, my) perspective. I guess one of the graces of building monumental structures (like Grand Central Station and such) is that they act as anchors for memory.
    But that anchoring of memory is a double edged sword. When I first came to Japan, Ueno Park was overrun by Iranians, because Iran and Japan had a special visa agreement. However, in 1992, there was a severe crackdown and now, not an Iranian to be found there. In my memory, I still can’t process the fact that it is so different, and if ‘your’ neighborhood suddenly changes, I have some empathy for the reaction, but really no sympathy.
    The wikipedia page about Iranians in Japan is pretty interesting
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_Japan

  425. Oh, home. Umm, 25 years Great Lakes, 45 years Dallas area, with ten years overlap and traveling.
    Dallas is not my “home” in the sense I had one as a kid, but I was a kid. Kids especially are attached and dependent and consumers of traditional and institutionalized social structures. Your classmates at school are a different kind of relationship than fellow workers, your school is often more attached to a place than your factory. These are to a degree imposed coercively on a kid, and ritual loyalty more enforced…yet these are felt to be natural, even chosen.
    Even though I now lack those “traditional” and historic ties, DFW still feels like “home.” These may now be mostly about habit and comfort, the pleasures of order and predictability. The arrangement of aisles at my grocery store, the way my furniture and refrigerator are arranged, the people I see on the morning walk.
    Consumption, we create our homes as consumers. There is of course production in consumption.
    But “home” as a kid was something received and imposed while I was taught the process of imagined community formation and especially reproduction. Material conditions and capitalist acceleration largely meant that the reproduction didn’t take, I abandoned my trad community, and didn’t create a new one.
    But I think the kids in my hood still have one.

  426. Oh, home. Umm, 25 years Great Lakes, 45 years Dallas area, with ten years overlap and traveling.
    Dallas is not my “home” in the sense I had one as a kid, but I was a kid. Kids especially are attached and dependent and consumers of traditional and institutionalized social structures. Your classmates at school are a different kind of relationship than fellow workers, your school is often more attached to a place than your factory. These are to a degree imposed coercively on a kid, and ritual loyalty more enforced…yet these are felt to be natural, even chosen.
    Even though I now lack those “traditional” and historic ties, DFW still feels like “home.” These may now be mostly about habit and comfort, the pleasures of order and predictability. The arrangement of aisles at my grocery store, the way my furniture and refrigerator are arranged, the people I see on the morning walk.
    Consumption, we create our homes as consumers. There is of course production in consumption.
    But “home” as a kid was something received and imposed while I was taught the process of imagined community formation and especially reproduction. Material conditions and capitalist acceleration largely meant that the reproduction didn’t take, I abandoned my trad community, and didn’t create a new one.
    But I think the kids in my hood still have one.

  427. I would not be surprised if most of the folks here don’t really have a hometown
    yeah. i can never answer when someone asks “where are you from?” without giving what i feel is an inaccurate answer in the name of brevity.
    where was i born, or where my SSN says i’m from, or where did i go to kindergarten, or where i went to each of the three 4th grades i attended, or where i graduated HS, or college, or which state i’ve lived in the most, or where i live now?

  428. I would not be surprised if most of the folks here don’t really have a hometown
    yeah. i can never answer when someone asks “where are you from?” without giving what i feel is an inaccurate answer in the name of brevity.
    where was i born, or where my SSN says i’m from, or where did i go to kindergarten, or where i went to each of the three 4th grades i attended, or where i graduated HS, or college, or which state i’ve lived in the most, or where i live now?

  429. Interesting hatefest for the “white” working class
    In case your comment is in any way directed to me, perhaps some clarification is needed.
    I have no animus toward the white working class or any other working class.
    In my very humble opinion, folks who belong to the white working class, or pretty much any class of any color other than maybe hedge fund managers, who voted for DJT acted foolishly.
    Because also in my very humble opinion, that decision is not going to work out to their advantage. And also in my very humble opinion, it will be damaging to the nation as a whole.
    My only real issue with folks in the “white working class” at anything like a personal level is their apparent and frequently expressed desire to shoot people like me. It makes me somewhat less interested in trying to have a conversation with them.
    Their obsession with my preference in lettuces also seems peculiar.
    If you can find some real leftists and/or honest and uncorrupted conservatives to vote for, please let us know, I’m sure many of us would be glad to join in.

  430. Interesting hatefest for the “white” working class
    In case your comment is in any way directed to me, perhaps some clarification is needed.
    I have no animus toward the white working class or any other working class.
    In my very humble opinion, folks who belong to the white working class, or pretty much any class of any color other than maybe hedge fund managers, who voted for DJT acted foolishly.
    Because also in my very humble opinion, that decision is not going to work out to their advantage. And also in my very humble opinion, it will be damaging to the nation as a whole.
    My only real issue with folks in the “white working class” at anything like a personal level is their apparent and frequently expressed desire to shoot people like me. It makes me somewhat less interested in trying to have a conversation with them.
    Their obsession with my preference in lettuces also seems peculiar.
    If you can find some real leftists and/or honest and uncorrupted conservatives to vote for, please let us know, I’m sure many of us would be glad to join in.

  431. New American Aristocracy Atlantic
    “Every piece of the pie picked up by the 0.1 percent, in relative terms, had to come from the people below. But not everyone in the 99.9 percent gave up a slice. Only those in the bottom 90 percent did. At their peak, in the mid-1980s, people in this group held 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Three decades later that had fallen 12 points—exactly as much as the wealth of the 0.1 percent rose.
    In between the top 0.1 percent and the bottom 90 percent is a group that has been doing just fine. It has held on to its share of a growing pie decade after decade. And as a group, it owns substantially more wealth than do the other two combined. In the tale of three classes (see Figure 1), it is represented by the gold line floating high and steady while the other two duke it out. You’ll find the new aristocracy there. We are the 9.9 percent.”
    See, what the 90% and WWC understand is that it is the 10%, the elite that doesn’t exist, that was the mechanism to funnel wealth from the 90% to the 1%. Why? Read the article.

  432. New American Aristocracy Atlantic
    “Every piece of the pie picked up by the 0.1 percent, in relative terms, had to come from the people below. But not everyone in the 99.9 percent gave up a slice. Only those in the bottom 90 percent did. At their peak, in the mid-1980s, people in this group held 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Three decades later that had fallen 12 points—exactly as much as the wealth of the 0.1 percent rose.
    In between the top 0.1 percent and the bottom 90 percent is a group that has been doing just fine. It has held on to its share of a growing pie decade after decade. And as a group, it owns substantially more wealth than do the other two combined. In the tale of three classes (see Figure 1), it is represented by the gold line floating high and steady while the other two duke it out. You’ll find the new aristocracy there. We are the 9.9 percent.”
    See, what the 90% and WWC understand is that it is the 10%, the elite that doesn’t exist, that was the mechanism to funnel wealth from the 90% to the 1%. Why? Read the article.

  433. “But around the world and throughout history, the wealthy have advanced the crystallization process in a straightforward way. They have taken their money out of productive activities and put it into walls. Throughout history, moreover, one social group above all others has assumed responsibility for maintaining and defending these walls. Its members used to be called aristocrats. Now we’re the 9.9 percent. The main difference is that we have figured out how to use the pretense of being part of the middle as one of our strategies for remaining on top.”

  434. “But around the world and throughout history, the wealthy have advanced the crystallization process in a straightforward way. They have taken their money out of productive activities and put it into walls. Throughout history, moreover, one social group above all others has assumed responsibility for maintaining and defending these walls. Its members used to be called aristocrats. Now we’re the 9.9 percent. The main difference is that we have figured out how to use the pretense of being part of the middle as one of our strategies for remaining on top.”

  435. When it comes to hometowns, I have one. I was not born there, but I moved there before I was one, and went to school there, graduating from senior high. In my current location, I am actively trying to become a local, which is helped by the fact that my old hometown is only 30 miles away. It seems to be working. I’ve been invited to stand in local elections (and refrained from soing that), and been asked to join organisations with some exclusivity. So it seems I am becoming an established member of local petty bourgeoisie. 🙂

  436. When it comes to hometowns, I have one. I was not born there, but I moved there before I was one, and went to school there, graduating from senior high. In my current location, I am actively trying to become a local, which is helped by the fact that my old hometown is only 30 miles away. It seems to be working. I’ve been invited to stand in local elections (and refrained from soing that), and been asked to join organisations with some exclusivity. So it seems I am becoming an established member of local petty bourgeoisie. 🙂

  437. “The counties that supported Hillary Clinton represented an astonishing 64 percent of the GDP, while Trump counties accounted for a mere 36 percent. Aaron Terrazas, a senior economist at Zillow, found that the median home value in Clinton counties was $250,000, while the median in Trump counties was $154,000. When you adjust for inflation, Clinton counties enjoyed real-estate price appreciation of 27 percent from January 2000 to October 2016; Trump counties got only a 6 percent bump.”

  438. “The counties that supported Hillary Clinton represented an astonishing 64 percent of the GDP, while Trump counties accounted for a mere 36 percent. Aaron Terrazas, a senior economist at Zillow, found that the median home value in Clinton counties was $250,000, while the median in Trump counties was $154,000. When you adjust for inflation, Clinton counties enjoyed real-estate price appreciation of 27 percent from January 2000 to October 2016; Trump counties got only a 6 percent bump.”

  439. Tony P,
    Your snark about God revealing himself only to a couple of herdsmen is factually incorrect. None of the Abrahamic religions is really a nomadic religion.
    Judaism has a mythology that ties its conception to a set of nomadic patriarchs and to a group of nomadic herdsmen conquering the Land of Canaan. Yet, there is very little archeological evidence for the conquest of Canaan ever occurring. Instead, the earliest Hebrews seem to have been Iron Age farmers in the mountains west of Jordan. If there ever was an influx of nomads there, it was probably a small ruling caste whose mythology was assumed by the main population. Anyhow, Judaism as monotheistic religion only developed after the Babylonian exile, in the most urbanised area of the world. Essentially, Judaism can be seen as a goup of farmers, merchants and scholars consciously acting according to a reconstructed set of nlmadic taboos.
    If anything, Christianity is the most urban of all Abrahamic religions. It is a synthesis of Hellenistic philosophy, Jewish mythology and a saviour personality that combines god-king worship with the popular mediterranean fertility rites of Tammuz-Horus-Dionysios-Ishtar-Isis-Magna Mater-axis. Chriatianity was, for the first four centuries of its history, almost exclusively practiced by urban dwellers.
    Islam, as the third Abrahamic religion, was invented by Muhammed, who was a merchant adventurer. While the religion is eminently suited for the practice in desert environment, its first adherents were also city-inhabitants.
    So, calling any Abrahamic religion a religion of nomads means essentially subscribing to its own internal mythology.

  440. Tony P,
    Your snark about God revealing himself only to a couple of herdsmen is factually incorrect. None of the Abrahamic religions is really a nomadic religion.
    Judaism has a mythology that ties its conception to a set of nomadic patriarchs and to a group of nomadic herdsmen conquering the Land of Canaan. Yet, there is very little archeological evidence for the conquest of Canaan ever occurring. Instead, the earliest Hebrews seem to have been Iron Age farmers in the mountains west of Jordan. If there ever was an influx of nomads there, it was probably a small ruling caste whose mythology was assumed by the main population. Anyhow, Judaism as monotheistic religion only developed after the Babylonian exile, in the most urbanised area of the world. Essentially, Judaism can be seen as a goup of farmers, merchants and scholars consciously acting according to a reconstructed set of nlmadic taboos.
    If anything, Christianity is the most urban of all Abrahamic religions. It is a synthesis of Hellenistic philosophy, Jewish mythology and a saviour personality that combines god-king worship with the popular mediterranean fertility rites of Tammuz-Horus-Dionysios-Ishtar-Isis-Magna Mater-axis. Chriatianity was, for the first four centuries of its history, almost exclusively practiced by urban dwellers.
    Islam, as the third Abrahamic religion, was invented by Muhammed, who was a merchant adventurer. While the religion is eminently suited for the practice in desert environment, its first adherents were also city-inhabitants.
    So, calling any Abrahamic religion a religion of nomads means essentially subscribing to its own internal mythology.

  441. “Their obsession with my preference in lettuces also seems peculiar.”
    Yeah, the right wing homies in Arizona and Texas who underpay immigrant stoop labor to harvest our lettuces and then sell it to we elites for a tidy profit margin have a lot of gall antagonizing their customers.
    Not many people know (much of anything) that mp’s nicknaming of Kim Jung Un as “Little Rocket Man”, is yet another right wing dog whistle aimed at we arugula eaters.
    Rocket is what arugula is called.
    Russell, wait until they find out about your man bag.
    I have no problem with the white working class … I’ve been one of them from time to time … upending an aerosol can of Cheez Whiz and shooting it directly down their gullets without even raising a polite pinkie, so they can back the eff off on the lettuces.
    The working classes use to pelt the elites with cabbages in public.
    You haven’t made the big time until you’ve taken the sharp end of a radicchio right in the eye from close range.

  442. “Their obsession with my preference in lettuces also seems peculiar.”
    Yeah, the right wing homies in Arizona and Texas who underpay immigrant stoop labor to harvest our lettuces and then sell it to we elites for a tidy profit margin have a lot of gall antagonizing their customers.
    Not many people know (much of anything) that mp’s nicknaming of Kim Jung Un as “Little Rocket Man”, is yet another right wing dog whistle aimed at we arugula eaters.
    Rocket is what arugula is called.
    Russell, wait until they find out about your man bag.
    I have no problem with the white working class … I’ve been one of them from time to time … upending an aerosol can of Cheez Whiz and shooting it directly down their gullets without even raising a polite pinkie, so they can back the eff off on the lettuces.
    The working classes use to pelt the elites with cabbages in public.
    You haven’t made the big time until you’ve taken the sharp end of a radicchio right in the eye from close range.

  443. are we just using ‘working class’ to mean people who make an average, give or take, living?
    because the classic def’n of ‘working class’ includes everyone who doesn’t own the machines. so, that includes a lot of people who make a lot of money.

  444. are we just using ‘working class’ to mean people who make an average, give or take, living?
    because the classic def’n of ‘working class’ includes everyone who doesn’t own the machines. so, that includes a lot of people who make a lot of money.

  445. This is the only white working class the conservative movement* gives a crap about, and they are about to be put upon big time once they are black-balled from any further employment in America because of their ties to the largest criminal and treasonous enterprise in American history:
    https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2018/05/15/putting-white-house-resume-less-boost/BSNVmebfnTFzjzoxB77bII/story.html?et_rid=1822198182&s_campaign=todaysheadlines:newsletter
    *And the traditional Democratic Party has taken the white working class for granted.

  446. This is the only white working class the conservative movement* gives a crap about, and they are about to be put upon big time once they are black-balled from any further employment in America because of their ties to the largest criminal and treasonous enterprise in American history:
    https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2018/05/15/putting-white-house-resume-less-boost/BSNVmebfnTFzjzoxB77bII/story.html?et_rid=1822198182&s_campaign=todaysheadlines:newsletter
    *And the traditional Democratic Party has taken the white working class for granted.

  447. Sometimes bob mcmanus seems like Neo, and we’re all living in the Matrix. Or maybe he’s more like Morpheus, and one of us is Neo, but doesn’t know it yet.
    Can I be Neo? I want to fly our of phone booth to Rage Against the Machine!
    So, calling any Abrahamic religion a religion of nomads means essentially subscribing to its own internal mythology.
    Isn’t that what the adherents do? Isn’t Tony P. simply considering them under their own terms?

  448. Sometimes bob mcmanus seems like Neo, and we’re all living in the Matrix. Or maybe he’s more like Morpheus, and one of us is Neo, but doesn’t know it yet.
    Can I be Neo? I want to fly our of phone booth to Rage Against the Machine!
    So, calling any Abrahamic religion a religion of nomads means essentially subscribing to its own internal mythology.
    Isn’t that what the adherents do? Isn’t Tony P. simply considering them under their own terms?

  449. I’ve decided the mp travesty is the Washington D.C. political version of the book and movie “Get Shorty”.
    “Other things to remember: you don’t “take a meeting” anymore, you say you have “a two-thirty at Tower.” If a studio passes on a script, you don’t say “they took a Pasadena.” That was out before it was in. Like “so-and-so gives good phone.” … There were a lot of terms you had to learn, as opposed to the shylock business where all you had to know how to say was “Give me the fuckin’ money.”

  450. I’ve decided the mp travesty is the Washington D.C. political version of the book and movie “Get Shorty”.
    “Other things to remember: you don’t “take a meeting” anymore, you say you have “a two-thirty at Tower.” If a studio passes on a script, you don’t say “they took a Pasadena.” That was out before it was in. Like “so-and-so gives good phone.” … There were a lot of terms you had to learn, as opposed to the shylock business where all you had to know how to say was “Give me the fuckin’ money.”

  451. other than maybe hedge fund managers . . .
    Because also in my very humble opinion, that decision is not going to work out to their advantage.
    Even (or maybe especially) for hedge fund managers, I suspect that it will work out very much to their disadvantage. At least in the long run . . . although I suppose that they are so accustomed to concentrating on the short term (specifically the next quarter) that it wouldn’t occur to them to consider that.

  452. other than maybe hedge fund managers . . .
    Because also in my very humble opinion, that decision is not going to work out to their advantage.
    Even (or maybe especially) for hedge fund managers, I suspect that it will work out very much to their disadvantage. At least in the long run . . . although I suppose that they are so accustomed to concentrating on the short term (specifically the next quarter) that it wouldn’t occur to them to consider that.

  453. Some excerpts from bob m’s (long!) Atlantic link, focusing on things other than money:

    The fact of the matter is that we have silently and collectively opted for inequality, and this is what inequality does. It turns marriage into a luxury good, and a stable family life into a privilege that the moneyed elite can pass along to their children. How do we think that’s going to work out?
    (…)
    In 19th-century England, the rich really were different. They didn’t just have more money; they were taller—a lot taller. According to a study colorfully titled “On English Pygmies and Giants,” 16-year-old boys from the upper classes towered a remarkable 8.6 inches, on average, over their undernourished, lower-class countrymen. We are reproducing the same kind of division via a different set of dimensions.
    Obesity, diabetes, heart disease, kidney disease, and liver disease are all two to three times more common in individuals who have a family income of less than $35,000 than in those who have a family income greater than $100,000. Among low-educated, middle-aged whites, the death rate in the United States—alone in the developed world—increased in the first decade and a half of the 21st century. Driving the trend is the rapid growth in what the Princeton economists Anne Case and Angus Deaton call “deaths of despair”—suicides and alcohol- and drug-related deaths.
    (…)
    In America today, the single best predictor of whether an individual will get married, stay married, pursue advanced education, live in a good neighborhood, have an extensive social network, and experience good health is the performance of his or her parents on those same metrics.
    (…)
    Inequality necessarily entrenches itself through other, nonfinancial, intrinsically invidious forms of wealth and power. We use these other forms of capital to project our advantages into life itself. We look down from our higher virtues in the same way the English upper class looked down from its taller bodies, as if the distinction between superior and inferior were an artifact of nature. That’s what aristocrats do.
    (…)
    The skin colors of the nation’s elite student bodies are more varied now, as are their genders, but their financial bones have calcified over the past 30 years. In 1985, 54 percent of students at the 250 most selective colleges came from families in the bottom three quartiles of the income distribution. A similar review of the class of 2010 put that figure at just 33 percent. According to a 2017 study, 38 elite colleges—among them five of the Ivies—had more students from the top 1 percent than from the bottom 60 percent. In his 2014 book, Excellent Sheep, William Deresiewicz, a former English professor at Yale, summed up the situation nicely: “Our new multiracial, gender-neutral meritocracy has figured out a way to make itself hereditary.”
    (…)
    The mother lode of all affirmative-action programs for the wealthy, of course, remains the private school. Only 2.2 percent of the nation’s students graduate from nonsectarian private high schools, and yet these graduates account for 26 percent of students at Harvard and 28 percent of students at Princeton. The other affirmative-action programs, the kind aimed at diversifying the look of the student body, are no doubt well intended. But they are to some degree merely an extension of this system of wealth preservation. Their function, at least in part, is to indulge rich people in the belief that their college is open to all on the basis of merit.

  454. Some excerpts from bob m’s (long!) Atlantic link, focusing on things other than money:

    The fact of the matter is that we have silently and collectively opted for inequality, and this is what inequality does. It turns marriage into a luxury good, and a stable family life into a privilege that the moneyed elite can pass along to their children. How do we think that’s going to work out?
    (…)
    In 19th-century England, the rich really were different. They didn’t just have more money; they were taller—a lot taller. According to a study colorfully titled “On English Pygmies and Giants,” 16-year-old boys from the upper classes towered a remarkable 8.6 inches, on average, over their undernourished, lower-class countrymen. We are reproducing the same kind of division via a different set of dimensions.
    Obesity, diabetes, heart disease, kidney disease, and liver disease are all two to three times more common in individuals who have a family income of less than $35,000 than in those who have a family income greater than $100,000. Among low-educated, middle-aged whites, the death rate in the United States—alone in the developed world—increased in the first decade and a half of the 21st century. Driving the trend is the rapid growth in what the Princeton economists Anne Case and Angus Deaton call “deaths of despair”—suicides and alcohol- and drug-related deaths.
    (…)
    In America today, the single best predictor of whether an individual will get married, stay married, pursue advanced education, live in a good neighborhood, have an extensive social network, and experience good health is the performance of his or her parents on those same metrics.
    (…)
    Inequality necessarily entrenches itself through other, nonfinancial, intrinsically invidious forms of wealth and power. We use these other forms of capital to project our advantages into life itself. We look down from our higher virtues in the same way the English upper class looked down from its taller bodies, as if the distinction between superior and inferior were an artifact of nature. That’s what aristocrats do.
    (…)
    The skin colors of the nation’s elite student bodies are more varied now, as are their genders, but their financial bones have calcified over the past 30 years. In 1985, 54 percent of students at the 250 most selective colleges came from families in the bottom three quartiles of the income distribution. A similar review of the class of 2010 put that figure at just 33 percent. According to a 2017 study, 38 elite colleges—among them five of the Ivies—had more students from the top 1 percent than from the bottom 60 percent. In his 2014 book, Excellent Sheep, William Deresiewicz, a former English professor at Yale, summed up the situation nicely: “Our new multiracial, gender-neutral meritocracy has figured out a way to make itself hereditary.”
    (…)
    The mother lode of all affirmative-action programs for the wealthy, of course, remains the private school. Only 2.2 percent of the nation’s students graduate from nonsectarian private high schools, and yet these graduates account for 26 percent of students at Harvard and 28 percent of students at Princeton. The other affirmative-action programs, the kind aimed at diversifying the look of the student body, are no doubt well intended. But they are to some degree merely an extension of this system of wealth preservation. Their function, at least in part, is to indulge rich people in the belief that their college is open to all on the basis of merit.

  455. New American Aristocracy Atlantic
    I’m pretty much one of the Atlantic’s 9.9%. I more than recognize that that is a position of extraordinary privilege. I hope that I never take it for granted.
    There is a solution to the inequality dilemna:
    PAY PEOPLE MORE.
    The people who get in the morning and go to work. Pay them.
    “Get Shorty”
    I love Elmore Leonard. And I really really love that movie.

  456. New American Aristocracy Atlantic
    I’m pretty much one of the Atlantic’s 9.9%. I more than recognize that that is a position of extraordinary privilege. I hope that I never take it for granted.
    There is a solution to the inequality dilemna:
    PAY PEOPLE MORE.
    The people who get in the morning and go to work. Pay them.
    “Get Shorty”
    I love Elmore Leonard. And I really really love that movie.

  457. Note: Those are excerpts I took after only being a bit more than half way through the piece.

  458. Note: Those are excerpts I took after only being a bit more than half way through the piece.

  459. Is she a conservative or a liberal?
    https://twitter.com/KaitMarieox/status/995699996212322304/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftalkingpointsmemo.com%2Fnews%2Fkent-state-university-graduate-kaitlin-bennett-rifle-graduation-photos
    The bullet-headed dick on the thread says its her God-given right to carry that military weapon anywhere she wants.
    God’s not going to make it stop.
    Vermin conservatives posit a God that gave her the right to carry deadly force in public, but would have her arrested if she was carrying the weapon while buck baked with bubbles with her dog hairs fully visible.
    I’m going to shoot that God in the head.

  460. Is she a conservative or a liberal?
    https://twitter.com/KaitMarieox/status/995699996212322304/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftalkingpointsmemo.com%2Fnews%2Fkent-state-university-graduate-kaitlin-bennett-rifle-graduation-photos
    The bullet-headed dick on the thread says its her God-given right to carry that military weapon anywhere she wants.
    God’s not going to make it stop.
    Vermin conservatives posit a God that gave her the right to carry deadly force in public, but would have her arrested if she was carrying the weapon while buck baked with bubbles with her dog hairs fully visible.
    I’m going to shoot that God in the head.

  463. The bullet-headed dick on the thread says its her God-given right to carry that military weapon anywhere she wants.
    Does he happen to explain why God took so very long to get around to creating guns, if it is everyone’s “God-given right” to carry one? Inquiring minds want to know….

  464. The bullet-headed dick on the thread says its her God-given right to carry that military weapon anywhere she wants.
    Does he happen to explain why God took so very long to get around to creating guns, if it is everyone’s “God-given right” to carry one? Inquiring minds want to know….

  465. I’m sure there are atheists who are strong 2nd-amendment advocates. They should have a debate with bullet-headed dick.

  466. I’m sure there are atheists who are strong 2nd-amendment advocates. They should have a debate with bullet-headed dick.

  467. Does he happen to explain why God took so very long to get around to creating guns, if it is everyone’s “God-given right” to carry one? Inquiring minds want to know….
    Time does not exist for God.

  468. Does he happen to explain why God took so very long to get around to creating guns, if it is everyone’s “God-given right” to carry one? Inquiring minds want to know….
    Time does not exist for God.

  469. Lurker, it says much that the Christian words for ‘non-members’ are derived from words for rural people. Pagans = pagani = people from the pagus, the open country where the flocks feed; English: heathens = people from the heather, the uncultivated land; German: Heiden (the same as English).

  470. Lurker, it says much that the Christian words for ‘non-members’ are derived from words for rural people. Pagans = pagani = people from the pagus, the open country where the flocks feed; English: heathens = people from the heather, the uncultivated land; German: Heiden (the same as English).

  475. Note: Those are excerpts I took after only being a bit more than half way through the piece.
    Agree. I’ll have to return and finish the article over lunch break.
    Thanks, mcmannus, you dirty commie.
    The article touches on other things, such as the ways in which our professional class has employed guild-like structures to protect such professions as doctors and lawyers from market forces that grind up others (cf Dean Baker on this). Thomas Frank’s Listen, Liberal made similar points.

  476. Note: Those are excerpts I took after only being a bit more than half way through the piece.
    Agree. I’ll have to return and finish the article over lunch break.
    Thanks, mcmannus, you dirty commie.
    The article touches on other things, such as the ways in which our professional class has employed guild-like structures to protect such professions as doctors and lawyers from market forces that grind up others (cf Dean Baker on this). Thomas Frank’s Listen, Liberal made similar points.

  477. more from the latest communist manifesto in The Atlantic:
    “You see, when educated people with excellent credentials band together to advance their collective interest, it’s all part of serving the public good by ensuring a high quality of service, establishing fair working conditions, and giving merit its due. That’s why we do it through “associations,” and with the assistance of fellow professionals wearing white shoes. When working-class people do it—through unions—it’s a violation of the sacred principles of the free market. It’s thuggish and anti-modern. Imagine if workers hired consultants and “compensation committees,” consisting of their peers at other companies, to recommend how much they should be paid. The result would be—well, we know what it would be, because that’s what CEOs do.”
    Simply absolutely correct.

  478. more from the latest communist manifesto in The Atlantic:
    “You see, when educated people with excellent credentials band together to advance their collective interest, it’s all part of serving the public good by ensuring a high quality of service, establishing fair working conditions, and giving merit its due. That’s why we do it through “associations,” and with the assistance of fellow professionals wearing white shoes. When working-class people do it—through unions—it’s a violation of the sacred principles of the free market. It’s thuggish and anti-modern. Imagine if workers hired consultants and “compensation committees,” consisting of their peers at other companies, to recommend how much they should be paid. The result would be—well, we know what it would be, because that’s what CEOs do.”
    Simply absolutely correct.

  479. ——-All American republican conservatives are animals.————
    Count me-a-Demon,
    If I said all blacks are animals, I would be marked as a racist. Even some racists might accuse me of hyperbole. It is also the same thing one can hear on “conservative” talk radio. Comments like “all liberals are garbage” are spoken there.
    Saying such stuff merely strengthens the reactionaries in the Republican Party and the pseudo-liberals who now run the Democratic Party.

  480. ——-All American republican conservatives are animals.————
    Count me-a-Demon,
    If I said all blacks are animals, I would be marked as a racist. Even some racists might accuse me of hyperbole. It is also the same thing one can hear on “conservative” talk radio. Comments like “all liberals are garbage” are spoken there.
    Saying such stuff merely strengthens the reactionaries in the Republican Party and the pseudo-liberals who now run the Democratic Party.

  481. our professional class has employed guild-like structures to protect such professions as doctors and lawyers from market forces that grind up others
    It may be notable, however, that such structures also protect, for example, hairdressers. Who hardly count as part of the top 10%.
    Perhaps matters are not quite as crystal clear as assumed.

  482. our professional class has employed guild-like structures to protect such professions as doctors and lawyers from market forces that grind up others
    It may be notable, however, that such structures also protect, for example, hairdressers. Who hardly count as part of the top 10%.
    Perhaps matters are not quite as crystal clear as assumed.

  483. more from the article:
    The raging polarization of American political life is not the consequence of bad manners or a lack of mutual understanding. It is just the loud aftermath of escalating inequality.
    This.
    wj…the merest of reviews of the incomes of hairdressers should be enough to demonstrate beyond all reasonable doubt that the barriers to entry erected by this particular association are, shall we say, easily surmountable.

  484. more from the article:
    The raging polarization of American political life is not the consequence of bad manners or a lack of mutual understanding. It is just the loud aftermath of escalating inequality.
    This.
    wj…the merest of reviews of the incomes of hairdressers should be enough to demonstrate beyond all reasonable doubt that the barriers to entry erected by this particular association are, shall we say, easily surmountable.

  485. ——Because also in my very humble opinion, that decision is not going to work out to their advantage. And also in my very humble opinion, it will be damaging to the nation as a whole.—-
    I agree. Clinton’s best point was that she was the lesser evil. Both blasted parties have been saying “vote for us, we’re the lesser evil” followed by some crumbs that they deign to toss on their chump supporters. This has been happening for around forty years now and life for most Americans has been going down as least as long.
    At some point, you have to say enough. I refuse to be a sucker anymore. Either help the country or go. That is why Sanders and Trump arose. Unfortunately, we have President Trump not President Sanders (or even Clinton. “ shudder”)

  486. ——Because also in my very humble opinion, that decision is not going to work out to their advantage. And also in my very humble opinion, it will be damaging to the nation as a whole.—-
    I agree. Clinton’s best point was that she was the lesser evil. Both blasted parties have been saying “vote for us, we’re the lesser evil” followed by some crumbs that they deign to toss on their chump supporters. This has been happening for around forty years now and life for most Americans has been going down as least as long.
    At some point, you have to say enough. I refuse to be a sucker anymore. Either help the country or go. That is why Sanders and Trump arose. Unfortunately, we have President Trump not President Sanders (or even Clinton. “ shudder”)

  487. It may be notable, however, that such structures also protect, for example, hairdressers. Who hardly count as part of the top 10%.
    Only if you use “such structures” in the most generalized way. It’s not that hard to get a hairdressing license. There’s no Grand Council of Hairdressers maintaining control over the requirements to make hairdressers scarce enough to drive up their labor rates to absurd levels.

  488. It may be notable, however, that such structures also protect, for example, hairdressers. Who hardly count as part of the top 10%.
    Only if you use “such structures” in the most generalized way. It’s not that hard to get a hairdressing license. There’s no Grand Council of Hairdressers maintaining control over the requirements to make hairdressers scarce enough to drive up their labor rates to absurd levels.

  491. and the pseudo-liberals who now run the Democratic Party.
    so, generalizations are cool when you make them ?

  492. and the pseudo-liberals who now run the Democratic Party.
    so, generalizations are cool when you make them ?

  493. It’s not that hard to get a hairdressing license.
    Granted, it might not be that difficult for you (or me) to jump thru the necessary hoops. And yet, we still see people getting criminal prosecutions due to their taking money for doing hair (sometimes nothing more than braiding cornrows). So perhaps not as trivial for everyone.

  494. It’s not that hard to get a hairdressing license.
    Granted, it might not be that difficult for you (or me) to jump thru the necessary hoops. And yet, we still see people getting criminal prosecutions due to their taking money for doing hair (sometimes nothing more than braiding cornrows). So perhaps not as trivial for everyone.

  495. so, generalizations are cool when you make them ?
    They have the virtue of lacking the entertainment value of performance art, so probably.

  496. so, generalizations are cool when you make them ?
    They have the virtue of lacking the entertainment value of performance art, so probably.

  497. Posted by: bobbyp | May 17, 2018 at 02:43 PM
    I almost threw that one in, too, but my comment was getting long as it was. But, yes, simply absolutely correct.

  498. Posted by: bobbyp | May 17, 2018 at 02:43 PM
    I almost threw that one in, too, but my comment was getting long as it was. But, yes, simply absolutely correct.

  499. So perhaps not as trivial for everyone.
    If you take money for doing hair, you have to have a license, as required by whatever state. If you don’t get in trouble for doing it without a license, there’s no point in requiring the license. That some number of people choose to take that risk doesn’t make it anything like a bar association.
    And I would imagine far more people get away with doing hair for money without a license than people do practicing law or medicine without the required credentials.

  500. So perhaps not as trivial for everyone.
    If you take money for doing hair, you have to have a license, as required by whatever state. If you don’t get in trouble for doing it without a license, there’s no point in requiring the license. That some number of people choose to take that risk doesn’t make it anything like a bar association.
    And I would imagine far more people get away with doing hair for money without a license than people do practicing law or medicine without the required credentials.

  501. To obtain a license to be a hairdresser, barber, and a number of other occupations require a lot more time, money, and hoop jumping than for emergency medical technician or security guard. The latter has a greater potential impact on health and safety than the former.

  502. To obtain a license to be a hairdresser, barber, and a number of other occupations require a lot more time, money, and hoop jumping than for emergency medical technician or security guard. The latter has a greater potential impact on health and safety than the former.

  503. The latter has a greater potential impact on health and safety than the former.
    Which is entirely beside the point. Perhaps the bar should be higher for EMTs and security guards. It doesn’t make hairdressers doctors or lawyers.

  504. The latter has a greater potential impact on health and safety than the former.
    Which is entirely beside the point. Perhaps the bar should be higher for EMTs and security guards. It doesn’t make hairdressers doctors or lawyers.

  507. Luckily there’s an organization that fights to remove constraints that prevent people from bettering their lives.
    Hmmm. The only thing I’ve ever felt constrained by is the lack of a trust fund.

  508. Luckily there’s an organization that fights to remove constraints that prevent people from bettering their lives.
    Hmmm. The only thing I’ve ever felt constrained by is the lack of a trust fund.

  509. Which is entirely beside the point. Perhaps the bar should be higher for EMTs and security guards. It doesn’t make hairdressers doctors or lawyers.
    I don’t think anyone said it did. Certainly that wasn’t my intention.
    What I was trying to say is that the same sorts of restrictions on who can practice exist for some jobs (“professions” seems excessive) which are not the sorts which get someone into the top 10%. (And I defy anyone to come up with a rationale for the restrictive barrier to entry for hairdressers. Unlike any of the other examples listed.)
    Which, at least to me, says that restrictions on practice are not exclusively intended to protect the incomes of the elites — which was the position I was attempting to argue against.

  510. Which is entirely beside the point. Perhaps the bar should be higher for EMTs and security guards. It doesn’t make hairdressers doctors or lawyers.
    I don’t think anyone said it did. Certainly that wasn’t my intention.
    What I was trying to say is that the same sorts of restrictions on who can practice exist for some jobs (“professions” seems excessive) which are not the sorts which get someone into the top 10%. (And I defy anyone to come up with a rationale for the restrictive barrier to entry for hairdressers. Unlike any of the other examples listed.)
    Which, at least to me, says that restrictions on practice are not exclusively intended to protect the incomes of the elites — which was the position I was attempting to argue against.

  511. The only thing I’ve ever felt constrained by is the lack of a trust fund.
    I always thought that it might be pleasant to become a remittance man. But somehow my family was never interested in bribing me to stay far away. Alas!

  512. The only thing I’ve ever felt constrained by is the lack of a trust fund.
    I always thought that it might be pleasant to become a remittance man. But somehow my family was never interested in bribing me to stay far away. Alas!

  513. Hey, hairdressers work near people’s vitals with sharp implements, and who does not think of Sweeney Todd while sitting in the chair occasionally?
    Security guards only handle firearms that, as we have heard ad nauseam, do not kill people and are under constitutional protection.
    I demand a court challenge by an unlicenced hairdresser or barber that uses a razor attached to a firearm in the bayonet position for his work.

  514. Hey, hairdressers work near people’s vitals with sharp implements, and who does not think of Sweeney Todd while sitting in the chair occasionally?
    Security guards only handle firearms that, as we have heard ad nauseam, do not kill people and are under constitutional protection.
    I demand a court challenge by an unlicenced hairdresser or barber that uses a razor attached to a firearm in the bayonet position for his work.

  515. I always thought that it might be pleasant to become a remittance man.
    Thanks, wj. I’d never seen that term before.
    There is a commonly employed wry reference up here in the northwest to the many hippielike creatures observed in Eugene, Oregon, as “trustifarians”. Is this term used elsewhere esteemed peanut gallery?

  516. I always thought that it might be pleasant to become a remittance man.
    Thanks, wj. I’d never seen that term before.
    There is a commonly employed wry reference up here in the northwest to the many hippielike creatures observed in Eugene, Oregon, as “trustifarians”. Is this term used elsewhere esteemed peanut gallery?

  517. HSH @ 3:14,
    The conclusion of the article is even better.
    I urge all here to read the whole thing.
    bobbyp

  518. HSH @ 3:14,
    The conclusion of the article is even better.
    I urge all here to read the whole thing.
    bobbyp

  519. There is a commonly employed wry reference up here in the northwest to the many hippielike creatures observed in Eugene, Oregon, as “trustifarians”.
    Most def., here in gentleman’s farmland.

  520. There is a commonly employed wry reference up here in the northwest to the many hippielike creatures observed in Eugene, Oregon, as “trustifarians”.
    Most def., here in gentleman’s farmland.

  523. From CharlesWT’s link:
    Unfortunately, all too many entrepreneurs find that this dream is under constant attack by unreasonable licensing, permitting and other requirements that stand in the way of honest competition.
    Eye of the beholder.
    The coffin seller thing was an interesting touch. If you knew anything about the inside of the funeral business, you would likely not have a lot of objections to their being licensed.
    All of that said, I don’t mind if hair braiders are freed from the fell hand of the oppressive state.
    It ain’t a perfect world, what can I say.
    trustafarian
    quite common in New England

  524. From CharlesWT’s link:
    Unfortunately, all too many entrepreneurs find that this dream is under constant attack by unreasonable licensing, permitting and other requirements that stand in the way of honest competition.
    Eye of the beholder.
    The coffin seller thing was an interesting touch. If you knew anything about the inside of the funeral business, you would likely not have a lot of objections to their being licensed.
    All of that said, I don’t mind if hair braiders are freed from the fell hand of the oppressive state.
    It ain’t a perfect world, what can I say.
    trustafarian
    quite common in New England

  529. CharlesWT,
    There is no such thing as an entrepreneur who believes wholeheartedly in “honest competition”. Bill Gates’ whining missives about ‘free software’ in his early days before striking it rich due to being granted a government monopoly are a classic example.

  530. CharlesWT,
    There is no such thing as an entrepreneur who believes wholeheartedly in “honest competition”. Bill Gates’ whining missives about ‘free software’ in his early days before striking it rich due to being granted a government monopoly are a classic example.

  531. “Hey, hairdressers work near people’s vitals with sharp implements, and who does not think of Sweeney Todd while sitting in the chair occasionally?”
    Plus headlice, ringworm, and other nasty things that can all too easily spread from person to person.
    A modicum of job-specific training is desirable.

  532. “Hey, hairdressers work near people’s vitals with sharp implements, and who does not think of Sweeney Todd while sitting in the chair occasionally?”
    Plus headlice, ringworm, and other nasty things that can all too easily spread from person to person.
    A modicum of job-specific training is desirable.

  535. —so, generalizations are cool when you make them ?—
    Not really no. And I do have to double check myself often. Anyways, I was referring to that subset that is its leadership. They seem more like the economic conservatives of forty years ago rather than any sort of liberal, nevermind an actual leftist.

  536. —so, generalizations are cool when you make them ?—
    Not really no. And I do have to double check myself often. Anyways, I was referring to that subset that is its leadership. They seem more like the economic conservatives of forty years ago rather than any sort of liberal, nevermind an actual leftist.

  537. They seem more like the economic conservatives of forty years ago rather than any sort of liberal, nevermind an actual leftist.
    Seems like labeling is your thing.
    Let me know what about Hillary Clinton’s platform you objected to. Or was it “the speeches”.

  538. They seem more like the economic conservatives of forty years ago rather than any sort of liberal, nevermind an actual leftist.
    Seems like labeling is your thing.
    Let me know what about Hillary Clinton’s platform you objected to. Or was it “the speeches”.

  543. Bill Gates learned that you have to buy politicians before you need them, not afterward.
    if i had bill gates’ money, i might buy a couple myself. polish them up, keep them on the mantle.
    I’d make them give my money away.
    hairdressers
    anecdota:
    long ago, when I had enough hair to actually require something that could be described as a “haircut”, I prevailed upon a college friend to give me one of her $5 dorm-room stylings.
    it sucked.
    I don’t mind the idea that people who cut hair are required to demonstrate proficiency sufficient to get a license.
    i’m sure you can find somebody who will drape a bedsheet around your shoulders and give you a handyman special at the kitchen table if you really want to stick it to the man.
    They seem more like the economic conservatives of forty years ago rather than any sort of liberal, nevermind an actual leftist.
    in the US, Elizabeth Warren is a liberal and Bernie is a socialist.
    so, yeah.
    welcome to ObWi JBird, thanks for chiming in. don’t be a stranger.

  544. Bill Gates learned that you have to buy politicians before you need them, not afterward.
    if i had bill gates’ money, i might buy a couple myself. polish them up, keep them on the mantle.
    I’d make them give my money away.
    hairdressers
    anecdota:
    long ago, when I had enough hair to actually require something that could be described as a “haircut”, I prevailed upon a college friend to give me one of her $5 dorm-room stylings.
    it sucked.
    I don’t mind the idea that people who cut hair are required to demonstrate proficiency sufficient to get a license.
    i’m sure you can find somebody who will drape a bedsheet around your shoulders and give you a handyman special at the kitchen table if you really want to stick it to the man.
    They seem more like the economic conservatives of forty years ago rather than any sort of liberal, nevermind an actual leftist.
    in the US, Elizabeth Warren is a liberal and Bernie is a socialist.
    so, yeah.
    welcome to ObWi JBird, thanks for chiming in. don’t be a stranger.

  545. So, open thread and all, and continuing with my support for “establishment Democrats” and my putting it in with them generally:
    Mark Warner.
    I expressed my dismay a few days ago, when I heard about his support for Haspel. I called his office, which I do on a regular basis (pro,mostly, but occasionally con).
    On Haspel, it was a definite con.
    Then, there was the whole Senate Intelligence Committee report, and release of documents the next day. I thought about it, called Warner, and expressed my thanks. (Also for the Net Neutrality vote.).
    Ummm. What is it like to try to keep the Senate Intelligence Committee somewhat honest? The freaking Senator Warner has to work with the freaking Senior Senator Burr. Okay.
    Senator Warner, I said, you have my back. I get it that you have to work on this thing.

  546. So, open thread and all, and continuing with my support for “establishment Democrats” and my putting it in with them generally:
    Mark Warner.
    I expressed my dismay a few days ago, when I heard about his support for Haspel. I called his office, which I do on a regular basis (pro,mostly, but occasionally con).
    On Haspel, it was a definite con.
    Then, there was the whole Senate Intelligence Committee report, and release of documents the next day. I thought about it, called Warner, and expressed my thanks. (Also for the Net Neutrality vote.).
    Ummm. What is it like to try to keep the Senate Intelligence Committee somewhat honest? The freaking Senator Warner has to work with the freaking Senior Senator Burr. Okay.
    Senator Warner, I said, you have my back. I get it that you have to work on this thing.

  547. JBird: They seem more like the economic conservatives of forty years ago rather than any sort of liberal, nevermind an actual leftist.
    russell: in the US, Elizabeth Warren is a liberal and Bernie is a socialist.
    so, yeah.
    So no.
    I was actually twenty-one years old forty years ago, and quite knowledgeable about what the f’ was going on. “Economic conservatives” were Reagan / Arthur Laffer people, so tell me that that’s where Democrats are.
    You are absolutely full of shit.
    Hope that I won’t be banned,, but look it the fuck up.

  548. JBird: They seem more like the economic conservatives of forty years ago rather than any sort of liberal, nevermind an actual leftist.
    russell: in the US, Elizabeth Warren is a liberal and Bernie is a socialist.
    so, yeah.
    So no.
    I was actually twenty-one years old forty years ago, and quite knowledgeable about what the f’ was going on. “Economic conservatives” were Reagan / Arthur Laffer people, so tell me that that’s where Democrats are.
    You are absolutely full of shit.
    Hope that I won’t be banned,, but look it the fuck up.

  549. By the way, JBird, russell is a front pager, and a good guy. He welcomes you.
    I am not a front pager and an oftentimes persona non grata. I think you’re a troll.
    Do what you wish with that.

  550. By the way, JBird, russell is a front pager, and a good guy. He welcomes you.
    I am not a front pager and an oftentimes persona non grata. I think you’re a troll.
    Do what you wish with that.

  551. Senator Warner, I said, you have my back
    well done, and thank you.
    Hope that I won’t be banned
    ?!?!?!?!?!
    if anyone ever gets banned from ObWi for telling me I’m full of shit, I will ban myself for life.
    seriously, no.
    you are correct. i was thinking more along the lines of Dwight Eisenhower. which is, i realize with alarm, not forty but sixty years ago.
    i’ve got the better part of a bottle of a nice provencal rose under my belt, because i have a man bag and i tie my french scarf in a hacking knot and that’s just how i roll, and i have become innumerate.
    i stand corrected. you are right, i am wrong.
    no more math for me, tonight.

  552. Senator Warner, I said, you have my back
    well done, and thank you.
    Hope that I won’t be banned
    ?!?!?!?!?!
    if anyone ever gets banned from ObWi for telling me I’m full of shit, I will ban myself for life.
    seriously, no.
    you are correct. i was thinking more along the lines of Dwight Eisenhower. which is, i realize with alarm, not forty but sixty years ago.
    i’ve got the better part of a bottle of a nice provencal rose under my belt, because i have a man bag and i tie my french scarf in a hacking knot and that’s just how i roll, and i have become innumerate.
    i stand corrected. you are right, i am wrong.
    no more math for me, tonight.

  553. Democrats shifted to the right on economic issues during the Clinton era. People bragged about how smart it was, how New Deal liberalism was outdated, and so forth. There was an organization— the DLC? I am forgetting the name. They never shifted as far right as Reagan. Even Obama spent part of his first term talking about Grand Bargains. Fortunately the Republicans were so unwilling to cooperate that nothing came of it.

  554. Democrats shifted to the right on economic issues during the Clinton era. People bragged about how smart it was, how New Deal liberalism was outdated, and so forth. There was an organization— the DLC? I am forgetting the name. They never shifted as far right as Reagan. Even Obama spent part of his first term talking about Grand Bargains. Fortunately the Republicans were so unwilling to cooperate that nothing came of it.

  555. Sorry, russell. I get a bit overzealous.
    Donald, yeah. Clinton needed to get elected. He won in the primary because people thought there needed to be that message. And he won. And it was good.
    I know it’s annoying for people to not get their pony. Maybe people are now ready for the real soshalist pony! I’d vote for it!
    The angst is about the fact that although a lot of people might have voted for it, it wouldn’t have won. Russ Feingold didn’t win in Wisconsin. Sometimes we have to settle. Sad, but not as sad, never as sad, as Republicans.

  556. Sorry, russell. I get a bit overzealous.
    Donald, yeah. Clinton needed to get elected. He won in the primary because people thought there needed to be that message. And he won. And it was good.
    I know it’s annoying for people to not get their pony. Maybe people are now ready for the real soshalist pony! I’d vote for it!
    The angst is about the fact that although a lot of people might have voted for it, it wouldn’t have won. Russ Feingold didn’t win in Wisconsin. Sometimes we have to settle. Sad, but not as sad, never as sad, as Republicans.

  557. it’s like this.
    we’re all a semi-happy family here on ObWi. we got Marty, and now and then McK, and whenever he can stand the sheer annoyance of it all slarti. all basically conservative. wj holds down the moderate conservative position.
    but mostly we’re liberal, or left-ish. even a token marxist or two, he said without meaning any disrespect by the word “token”.
    not everyone agrees with us. many of the folks who don’t agree with us vote.
    if the guy that can get elected is bill clinton, or mark warner, work with that and be happy it’s not some knothead.
    “knothead” in the literary sense, rather han the perjorative one. of course.

  558. it’s like this.
    we’re all a semi-happy family here on ObWi. we got Marty, and now and then McK, and whenever he can stand the sheer annoyance of it all slarti. all basically conservative. wj holds down the moderate conservative position.
    but mostly we’re liberal, or left-ish. even a token marxist or two, he said without meaning any disrespect by the word “token”.
    not everyone agrees with us. many of the folks who don’t agree with us vote.
    if the guy that can get elected is bill clinton, or mark warner, work with that and be happy it’s not some knothead.
    “knothead” in the literary sense, rather han the perjorative one. of course.

  559. also:
    Sorry, russell. I get a bit overzealous.
    NO WORRIES. you’re good.
    time to go to bed before i get my threads mixed up and start posting about the brilliance of tony williams on “nefertiti” and the wonders of molded cheeses.
    nite all.

  560. also:
    Sorry, russell. I get a bit overzealous.
    NO WORRIES. you’re good.
    time to go to bed before i get my threads mixed up and start posting about the brilliance of tony williams on “nefertiti” and the wonders of molded cheeses.
    nite all.

  561. Sometimes we have to settle.
    Exactly. The loss of that willingness to take half a loaf and celebrate the win, rather than insisting on all or nothing and getting nothing. That is the tragedy of American politics today.
    The yearning for absolute purity has always been there, on both the right and left. But once it was fringe, and now it has gotten tragically far towards the center. Further, for the moment, on the right — which is being useful to those on the left of similar absolutist persuasion.

  562. Sometimes we have to settle.
    Exactly. The loss of that willingness to take half a loaf and celebrate the win, rather than insisting on all or nothing and getting nothing. That is the tragedy of American politics today.
    The yearning for absolute purity has always been there, on both the right and left. But once it was fringe, and now it has gotten tragically far towards the center. Further, for the moment, on the right — which is being useful to those on the left of similar absolutist persuasion.

  563. I think one could debate whether Clinton had to go as far to the center as he did, to the wild cheering of our “ liberal “ media. I have seen people debate it, but I am forgetful of the arguments and don’t feel in the debating mood anyway. But the pony argument gets overused. There are varying shades of lefties and I read some folks who go third party without agreeing with them on that point. I would go third party if I thought it would accomplish something. But one can criticize Democrats from the left on various subjects without wishing for ponies, believing in green lanterns, or whatever other bloggish cliche comes to mind.

  564. I think one could debate whether Clinton had to go as far to the center as he did, to the wild cheering of our “ liberal “ media. I have seen people debate it, but I am forgetful of the arguments and don’t feel in the debating mood anyway. But the pony argument gets overused. There are varying shades of lefties and I read some folks who go third party without agreeing with them on that point. I would go third party if I thought it would accomplish something. But one can criticize Democrats from the left on various subjects without wishing for ponies, believing in green lanterns, or whatever other bloggish cliche comes to mind.

  565. Re: Clinton and neoliberal economics.
    I think the one problem was that the people who were caught in the 1920’s bubble and the following Great Depression were moving off the stage of history.
    That generation learned, the hard way, not to trust hyped up financial shenanigans issuing from Wall Street, and that when your broker/banker/CEO absconded with your life’s savings, that having government programs as a backstop was a really good alternative to destitution.
    Those who ignore the lessons of history, etc, etc.

  566. Re: Clinton and neoliberal economics.
    I think the one problem was that the people who were caught in the 1920’s bubble and the following Great Depression were moving off the stage of history.
    That generation learned, the hard way, not to trust hyped up financial shenanigans issuing from Wall Street, and that when your broker/banker/CEO absconded with your life’s savings, that having government programs as a backstop was a really good alternative to destitution.
    Those who ignore the lessons of history, etc, etc.

  569. Bill Gates learned that you have to buy politicians before you need them, not afterward…
    Amusing Gates story…
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/18/bill-gates-donald-trump-difference-hiv-hpv
    Gates is hardly known for his comic timing but he frequently prompted laughter from the audience at the foundation event. In one anecdote he said: “When I walked in, his first sentence kind of threw me off. He said: ‘Trump hears that you don’t like what Trump is doing.’ And I thought, ‘Wow, but you’re Trump.’ I didn’t know the third-party form was always expected. ‘Gates says that Gates knows that you’re not doing things right.’”..

  570. Bill Gates learned that you have to buy politicians before you need them, not afterward…
    Amusing Gates story…
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/18/bill-gates-donald-trump-difference-hiv-hpv
    Gates is hardly known for his comic timing but he frequently prompted laughter from the audience at the foundation event. In one anecdote he said: “When I walked in, his first sentence kind of threw me off. He said: ‘Trump hears that you don’t like what Trump is doing.’ And I thought, ‘Wow, but you’re Trump.’ I didn’t know the third-party form was always expected. ‘Gates says that Gates knows that you’re not doing things right.’”..

  571. JBird:
    Welcome to OBWI!
    I was going to leave this alone, and these remarks are mine only and do not reflect the OBWI Zeitgeist, but …
    “If I said all blacks are animals, I would be marked as a racist. Even some racists might accuse me of hyperbole. It is also the same thing one can hear on “conservative” talk radio. Comments like “all liberals are garbage” are spoken there.”
    As Johnny Carson would respond to Tommy Newsom, the latter filling in for bandleader Doc Severinsen, after being informed that Doc was on vacation: “I did not know that,” while adjusting his tie and looking around and mugging for the studio audience.
    “Saying such stuff merely strengthens the reactionaries in the Republican Party and the pseudo-liberals who now run the Democratic Party.”
    What, did you just come in out of the rain from the intellectual dark web?
    You mean, if I respond in kind to thug conservative rhetoric generalizing about the Other, I create ANOTHER Nazi because … what? …. snowflakes melt to form new, racist fascists who emulate this lout of a President.
    Fine, who’s next? It’s a big sidewalk. Lots of room to kick ass physically if the right-wing cowards want to go there.
    As to the Democratic Party, I have no doubt that taking the high road, questionably with Clinton-lites, or with Sanders-lites, or with some new statesman-like wunderkind who peels off a few republicans, will fail miserably to moderate the monstrosity called the republican party.
    I want that cancer destroyed. I don’t even want it to be in minority remission and live to metastasize again.
    I don’t want another republican Alien or Jurassic Park sequel.

  572. JBird:
    Welcome to OBWI!
    I was going to leave this alone, and these remarks are mine only and do not reflect the OBWI Zeitgeist, but …
    “If I said all blacks are animals, I would be marked as a racist. Even some racists might accuse me of hyperbole. It is also the same thing one can hear on “conservative” talk radio. Comments like “all liberals are garbage” are spoken there.”
    As Johnny Carson would respond to Tommy Newsom, the latter filling in for bandleader Doc Severinsen, after being informed that Doc was on vacation: “I did not know that,” while adjusting his tie and looking around and mugging for the studio audience.
    “Saying such stuff merely strengthens the reactionaries in the Republican Party and the pseudo-liberals who now run the Democratic Party.”
    What, did you just come in out of the rain from the intellectual dark web?
    You mean, if I respond in kind to thug conservative rhetoric generalizing about the Other, I create ANOTHER Nazi because … what? …. snowflakes melt to form new, racist fascists who emulate this lout of a President.
    Fine, who’s next? It’s a big sidewalk. Lots of room to kick ass physically if the right-wing cowards want to go there.
    As to the Democratic Party, I have no doubt that taking the high road, questionably with Clinton-lites, or with Sanders-lites, or with some new statesman-like wunderkind who peels off a few republicans, will fail miserably to moderate the monstrosity called the republican party.
    I want that cancer destroyed. I don’t even want it to be in minority remission and live to metastasize again.
    I don’t want another republican Alien or Jurassic Park sequel.

  573. I think one could debate whether Clinton had to go as far to the center as he did
    One could, and armchair quarterbacks do. But it might be better to ask: “Did what he did do the job?” That is, did it get the Democrats back in power, when they had lost the last 3 Presidential elections — and arguably more, if you see Carter as the result of special circumstances?
    Similarly, one could ask whether Gingrich needed to go as far right as he did in order to get Republicans control of Congress.
    But note that, in both cases, the question ignores the possibility the the folks involved went was far as they did because their actually beliefs were there. It just assumes that political expediency drove everything. Not to say that politicians don’t act from expediency. But sometimes they are moved to shape their expediencies to their beliefs.

  574. I think one could debate whether Clinton had to go as far to the center as he did
    One could, and armchair quarterbacks do. But it might be better to ask: “Did what he did do the job?” That is, did it get the Democrats back in power, when they had lost the last 3 Presidential elections — and arguably more, if you see Carter as the result of special circumstances?
    Similarly, one could ask whether Gingrich needed to go as far right as he did in order to get Republicans control of Congress.
    But note that, in both cases, the question ignores the possibility the the folks involved went was far as they did because their actually beliefs were there. It just assumes that political expediency drove everything. Not to say that politicians don’t act from expediency. But sometimes they are moved to shape their expediencies to their beliefs.

  575. I think one could debate whether Clinton had to go as far to the center as he did
    It’s worth considering that maybe Clinton (i.e., Bill) didn’t “go to the right”. Maybe that’s actually who he was, and what he actually believed and thought was good.
    Maybe it wasn’t a calculated political jedi mind trick. Maybe he is, really and truly, socially basically liberal but mostly a politically middle of the road technocrat who supports and sees value in a vigorous public sector.
    Believe it or not, that is neither a specifically liberal or a lefty position.

  576. I think one could debate whether Clinton had to go as far to the center as he did
    It’s worth considering that maybe Clinton (i.e., Bill) didn’t “go to the right”. Maybe that’s actually who he was, and what he actually believed and thought was good.
    Maybe it wasn’t a calculated political jedi mind trick. Maybe he is, really and truly, socially basically liberal but mostly a politically middle of the road technocrat who supports and sees value in a vigorous public sector.
    Believe it or not, that is neither a specifically liberal or a lefty position.

  577. The yearning for absolute purity…
    Seriously?! Donald voted for Clinton IIRC, evangelical Christians voted for Trump…

  578. The yearning for absolute purity…
    Seriously?! Donald voted for Clinton IIRC, evangelical Christians voted for Trump…

  581. I urge all here to read the whole thing.
    Yes. I just finished it. There was a discussion about the more-pronounced economic sorting that’s going on, particularly in and sometimes near major cities. Instead of trying to express my thoughts on that subject, it would be easier to refer people to that article.
    (There’s a reason I’m not a professional writer of any sort. Or more likely a number of reasons.)

  582. I urge all here to read the whole thing.
    Yes. I just finished it. There was a discussion about the more-pronounced economic sorting that’s going on, particularly in and sometimes near major cities. Instead of trying to express my thoughts on that subject, it would be easier to refer people to that article.
    (There’s a reason I’m not a professional writer of any sort. Or more likely a number of reasons.)

  585. At this stage I would repeal the second amendment. More politically pragmatic suggestions are welcome, but I have nothing.

  586. At this stage I would repeal the second amendment. More politically pragmatic suggestions are welcome, but I have nothing.

  587. At this stage I would repeal the second amendment.
    I can think of a number of amendments that might be useful. (For just one example, one clarifying that corporations are NOT persons, save for a very narrow range of specific and limited purposes. Of which speech and political action are not among them.)
    Desirable as junking the 2nd Amendment (as it is currently interpreted!) might be, is it really the highest priority?

  588. At this stage I would repeal the second amendment.
    I can think of a number of amendments that might be useful. (For just one example, one clarifying that corporations are NOT persons, save for a very narrow range of specific and limited purposes. Of which speech and political action are not among them.)
    Desirable as junking the 2nd Amendment (as it is currently interpreted!) might be, is it really the highest priority?

  589. Um, I was reacting to the school shooting news. It was an emotional response. Do you want me to put “ stopping school shootings” on some sort of priority ranking list?

  590. Um, I was reacting to the school shooting news. It was an emotional response. Do you want me to put “ stopping school shootings” on some sort of priority ranking list?

  591. I’m all for stopping school shootings. (And others, come to that.) Although I suspect that it will take quite some little time after a 2nd Amendment repeal to reduce the number of guns sloshing around the country to the point of doing so.
    And some other changes might also make doing so more politically viable.

  592. I’m all for stopping school shootings. (And others, come to that.) Although I suspect that it will take quite some little time after a 2nd Amendment repeal to reduce the number of guns sloshing around the country to the point of doing so.
    And some other changes might also make doing so more politically viable.

  593. Read Savage War of Peace a while back history of Algerian Independence and man’s inhumanity to man was amply confirmed therein but shit man, at least the assholes had a purpose. This everyday nihilism of a world with school shootings we rubberneck and pass by is dispiriting
    In this country try to take away the guns to the degree shootings like this are minimized and they’ll use them until the ammunition’s gone.
    What may happen is that all we lose privacy as they try to predict and prevent. I am not sure that will hurt* the marginal and abject and different more the normies will also get hurt but they wont notice as much even grow to love big brother. Then they can get the guns.
    I know my current illegal activities (cough) are permanently recorded archived noticed marked flagged…I just have to be sure I don’t give them reason to care.
    This is one future. Expensive to arrest, try, imprison. Real expensive. Save that for systemic dangers. Just record everything, let them know we know, let it all slide unless until…keep em guessing. But mostly they’re on their own cause we gateds can’t give a fuck.
    Like we’re gonna spend the money and capital to save a few kids, Break gimme.

  594. Read Savage War of Peace a while back history of Algerian Independence and man’s inhumanity to man was amply confirmed therein but shit man, at least the assholes had a purpose. This everyday nihilism of a world with school shootings we rubberneck and pass by is dispiriting
    In this country try to take away the guns to the degree shootings like this are minimized and they’ll use them until the ammunition’s gone.
    What may happen is that all we lose privacy as they try to predict and prevent. I am not sure that will hurt* the marginal and abject and different more the normies will also get hurt but they wont notice as much even grow to love big brother. Then they can get the guns.
    I know my current illegal activities (cough) are permanently recorded archived noticed marked flagged…I just have to be sure I don’t give them reason to care.
    This is one future. Expensive to arrest, try, imprison. Real expensive. Save that for systemic dangers. Just record everything, let them know we know, let it all slide unless until…keep em guessing. But mostly they’re on their own cause we gateds can’t give a fuck.
    Like we’re gonna spend the money and capital to save a few kids, Break gimme.

  597. And that’s why it ain’t fascism, not even close.
    Fascism is in a way cheaper cause it is your neighbor the elementary teacher beating you up saves training but requires excessive looting and stealing and extorting for so many enforcers and runs out of victims and so requires expansion which gets expensive. But fascism is every direct everyday stret violence as politics and economics.
    We are probably just headed into anarchism and warlordism, been a strong state for so long we can’t see statelessness. Well, unless we watch MENA news. Libya and Syria is our future.

  598. And that’s why it ain’t fascism, not even close.
    Fascism is in a way cheaper cause it is your neighbor the elementary teacher beating you up saves training but requires excessive looting and stealing and extorting for so many enforcers and runs out of victims and so requires expansion which gets expensive. But fascism is every direct everyday stret violence as politics and economics.
    We are probably just headed into anarchism and warlordism, been a strong state for so long we can’t see statelessness. Well, unless we watch MENA news. Libya and Syria is our future.

  599. I know my current illegal activities (cough) are permanently recorded archived noticed marked flagged…I just have to be sure I don’t give them reason to care.
    (jocular sarcasm) We know the temperature of your shit, bob. The rest? Meh. We could care less.
    Yours sincerely,
    THE (really, really) DEEP STATE, esq.
    (/jocular sarcasm)

  600. I know my current illegal activities (cough) are permanently recorded archived noticed marked flagged…I just have to be sure I don’t give them reason to care.
    (jocular sarcasm) We know the temperature of your shit, bob. The rest? Meh. We could care less.
    Yours sincerely,
    THE (really, really) DEEP STATE, esq.
    (/jocular sarcasm)

  601. Countme-a-Demon:
    Thanks for the welcome!
    What, did you just come in out of the rain from the intellectual dark web?
    What? What the heck is that?
    I’ll just note that for, I guess forty odd years, the entire political establishment has been going rightward in its economic policies. Whatever party gets in power anywhere, they throw some socially liberal/conservative crumbs to the masses and then help the already wealthy steal from the not rich. It’s a policy of distraction to hide the robbery.
    WTF does it matter if guns(or abortions) banned or if one can get married, or not, if one can’t make a living, get a good education, feed your family, or get healthcare? All the economic decisions of both parties have been beneficial for the the 20% at best, while leaving everyone else to go die.
    So ask me just how I felt about social issues when I couldn’t eat or was threaten with homelessness? Enough of this. The bulk of the political establishment is fricking corrupt, and I refuse to give them anymore chances.
    So to Hell with Clinton, to Hell with both parties. I am not sure what the solutions are. Try to reform one of the parties? Join the DSA? Something else entirely? Who knows, but do not give me the bullshit that the Democrats or the Republicans actually give squat about most Americans of any race, class, ideology, or religion. They don’t.

  602. Countme-a-Demon:
    Thanks for the welcome!
    What, did you just come in out of the rain from the intellectual dark web?
    What? What the heck is that?
    I’ll just note that for, I guess forty odd years, the entire political establishment has been going rightward in its economic policies. Whatever party gets in power anywhere, they throw some socially liberal/conservative crumbs to the masses and then help the already wealthy steal from the not rich. It’s a policy of distraction to hide the robbery.
    WTF does it matter if guns(or abortions) banned or if one can get married, or not, if one can’t make a living, get a good education, feed your family, or get healthcare? All the economic decisions of both parties have been beneficial for the the 20% at best, while leaving everyone else to go die.
    So ask me just how I felt about social issues when I couldn’t eat or was threaten with homelessness? Enough of this. The bulk of the political establishment is fricking corrupt, and I refuse to give them anymore chances.
    So to Hell with Clinton, to Hell with both parties. I am not sure what the solutions are. Try to reform one of the parties? Join the DSA? Something else entirely? Who knows, but do not give me the bullshit that the Democrats or the Republicans actually give squat about most Americans of any race, class, ideology, or religion. They don’t.

  603. Perhaps another excerpt from bob m’s Atlantic link from yesterday:

    There is a page in the book of American political thought—Grandfather knew it by heart—that says we must choose between government and freedom. But if you read it twice, you’ll see that what it really offers is a choice between government you can see and government you can’t. Aristocrats always prefer the invisible kind of government. It leaves them free to exercise their privileges. We in the 9.9 percent have mastered the art of getting the government to work for us even while complaining loudly that it’s working for those other people.
    Consider, for starters, the greatly exaggerated reports of our tax burdens. On guest panels this past holiday season, apologists for the latest round of upwardly aimed tax cuts offered versions of Mitt Romney’s claim that the 47 percent of Americans who pay no federal income tax in a typical year have “no skin in the game.” Baloney. Sure, the federal individual-income tax, which raised $1.6 trillion last year, remains progressive. But the $1.2 trillion raised by the payroll tax hits all workers—but not investors, such as Romney—and it hits those making lower incomes at a higher rate, thanks to a cap on the amount of income subject to the tax. Then there’s the $2.3 trillion raised by state and local governments, much of it collected through regressive sales and property taxes. The poorest quintile of Americans pays more than twice the rate of state taxes as the top 1 percent does, and about half again what the top 10 percent pays.

  604. Perhaps another excerpt from bob m’s Atlantic link from yesterday:

    There is a page in the book of American political thought—Grandfather knew it by heart—that says we must choose between government and freedom. But if you read it twice, you’ll see that what it really offers is a choice between government you can see and government you can’t. Aristocrats always prefer the invisible kind of government. It leaves them free to exercise their privileges. We in the 9.9 percent have mastered the art of getting the government to work for us even while complaining loudly that it’s working for those other people.
    Consider, for starters, the greatly exaggerated reports of our tax burdens. On guest panels this past holiday season, apologists for the latest round of upwardly aimed tax cuts offered versions of Mitt Romney’s claim that the 47 percent of Americans who pay no federal income tax in a typical year have “no skin in the game.” Baloney. Sure, the federal individual-income tax, which raised $1.6 trillion last year, remains progressive. But the $1.2 trillion raised by the payroll tax hits all workers—but not investors, such as Romney—and it hits those making lower incomes at a higher rate, thanks to a cap on the amount of income subject to the tax. Then there’s the $2.3 trillion raised by state and local governments, much of it collected through regressive sales and property taxes. The poorest quintile of Americans pays more than twice the rate of state taxes as the top 1 percent does, and about half again what the top 10 percent pays.

  605. WTF does it matter if guns(or abortions) banned or if one can get married, or not, if one can’t make a living, get a good education, feed your family, or get healthcare?
    getting shot obviates your need for any of those other things.

  606. WTF does it matter if guns(or abortions) banned or if one can get married, or not, if one can’t make a living, get a good education, feed your family, or get healthcare?
    getting shot obviates your need for any of those other things.

  607. do not give me the bullshit that the Democrats or the Republicans actually give squat about most Americans of any race, class, ideology, or religion. They don’t.
    they don’t?
    as my mother always said: one must always endeavor to speak only for one’s self.

  608. do not give me the bullshit that the Democrats or the Republicans actually give squat about most Americans of any race, class, ideology, or religion. They don’t.
    they don’t?
    as my mother always said: one must always endeavor to speak only for one’s self.

  609. Countme-a-Demon:
    Thanks for the welcome!
    What am I, chopped liver?
    😉
    Reset your “too soon” clocks, I guess.
    This stuff doesn’t happen in other places. Not like this.
    Time for us to check our heads.

  610. Countme-a-Demon:
    Thanks for the welcome!
    What am I, chopped liver?
    😉
    Reset your “too soon” clocks, I guess.
    This stuff doesn’t happen in other places. Not like this.
    Time for us to check our heads.

  611. About that Atlantic article:
    Stewart notes early on that the top 0.1% are the political-donor class, and that they have fattened themselves mainly at the expense of the bottom 90% while (wisely and perhaps by design) leaving the fat-dumb-and-happy 9.9% alone.
    He then points out, rightly, that government policy has much to do with the growing separation between the unfortunate 90% and the increasingly-entrenched 9.9% crowd. (The 0.1% are of course on their own, unattainable plane.)
    Now, government policies are in principle the fruit of voter preferences. Also in principle, voter preferences are what a majority of the voters want. It should go without saying that 9.9%+0.1%<<50% So, what's going on? Do the 90% deserve any sort of blame for their own plight? One theory that they do NOT goes like this: an unholy alliance between the 0.1% and the 9.9% has taken control of both major political parties, so that it hardly matters how the 90% vote. There's not a dime's worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats as far as policies affecting the (mal)distribution of wealth go. I don't buy that theory, because I have not been asleep for the last 40 years. And even if I did, I'd have to ask: does 90% of the population really have no influence in either party? An alternative theory: the 90% includes lots of smart (or at least, educated) people. I daresay most of the nation's teachers are 90%ers, for instance. But it also includes lots of dumb people -- 90% of any nation is going to include lots of dumb people. The smart ones are apparently outnumbered. They may not be prey to the insidious brainwashing funded by the 0.1% and embraced the 9.9%, but their dumber brethren are gullible enough to swallow the proposition that the rich don’t have enough money and the poor have too much.
    Whichever theory you subscribe to, the notion that 90% are helpless — in a democracy — to rein in the other 10% is a notion that needs examining.
    –TP

  612. About that Atlantic article:
    Stewart notes early on that the top 0.1% are the political-donor class, and that they have fattened themselves mainly at the expense of the bottom 90% while (wisely and perhaps by design) leaving the fat-dumb-and-happy 9.9% alone.
    He then points out, rightly, that government policy has much to do with the growing separation between the unfortunate 90% and the increasingly-entrenched 9.9% crowd. (The 0.1% are of course on their own, unattainable plane.)
    Now, government policies are in principle the fruit of voter preferences. Also in principle, voter preferences are what a majority of the voters want. It should go without saying that 9.9%+0.1%<<50% So, what's going on? Do the 90% deserve any sort of blame for their own plight? One theory that they do NOT goes like this: an unholy alliance between the 0.1% and the 9.9% has taken control of both major political parties, so that it hardly matters how the 90% vote. There's not a dime's worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats as far as policies affecting the (mal)distribution of wealth go. I don't buy that theory, because I have not been asleep for the last 40 years. And even if I did, I'd have to ask: does 90% of the population really have no influence in either party? An alternative theory: the 90% includes lots of smart (or at least, educated) people. I daresay most of the nation's teachers are 90%ers, for instance. But it also includes lots of dumb people -- 90% of any nation is going to include lots of dumb people. The smart ones are apparently outnumbered. They may not be prey to the insidious brainwashing funded by the 0.1% and embraced the 9.9%, but their dumber brethren are gullible enough to swallow the proposition that the rich don’t have enough money and the poor have too much.
    Whichever theory you subscribe to, the notion that 90% are helpless — in a democracy — to rein in the other 10% is a notion that needs examining.
    –TP

  613. 90% of any nation is going to include lots of dumb people. The smart ones are apparently outnumbered.
    Pretty much by definition, half of the population is going to be of below average intelligence. But what we are talking about here is those who merely can be persuaded (perhaps by that “insidious brainwashing”) to act against their own (financial) interests. Whether by misrepresenting what is in their financial interest, or by shifting the discussion to non-financial issues.
    As a side note, keep in mind that some of those “below average intelligence” folks also inhabit the 0.1% . . . generally courtesy of parents or grandparents who had more wit and/or drive than they. See Trump, Donald J.

  614. 90% of any nation is going to include lots of dumb people. The smart ones are apparently outnumbered.
    Pretty much by definition, half of the population is going to be of below average intelligence. But what we are talking about here is those who merely can be persuaded (perhaps by that “insidious brainwashing”) to act against their own (financial) interests. Whether by misrepresenting what is in their financial interest, or by shifting the discussion to non-financial issues.
    As a side note, keep in mind that some of those “below average intelligence” folks also inhabit the 0.1% . . . generally courtesy of parents or grandparents who had more wit and/or drive than they. See Trump, Donald J.

  615. Tony,
    The top 10% have all the dough. They tend to have a great deal of political influence. They probably have a good deal more voter participation rates.
    Just look at your local politics….Lawyers, real estate folks, business people. They’re usually in charge. Some slice of regular folks, eh? Why it’s as if nobody who cleans toilets or cooks at the local restaurant exists.
    No, the 90% is not helpless, but the deck is stacked against them. That is why I heartened whenever I see collective action protest. Those 90% schmucks have to learn to use the one big advantage they have: NUMBERS.

  616. Tony,
    The top 10% have all the dough. They tend to have a great deal of political influence. They probably have a good deal more voter participation rates.
    Just look at your local politics….Lawyers, real estate folks, business people. They’re usually in charge. Some slice of regular folks, eh? Why it’s as if nobody who cleans toilets or cooks at the local restaurant exists.
    No, the 90% is not helpless, but the deck is stacked against them. That is why I heartened whenever I see collective action protest. Those 90% schmucks have to learn to use the one big advantage they have: NUMBERS.

  617. Whichever theory you subscribe to, the notion that 90% are helpless — in a democracy — to rein in the other 10% is a notion that needs examining.
    I think it must come at least in part down to what sort of democracy you’re talking about. Structural considerations, perhaps.

  618. Whichever theory you subscribe to, the notion that 90% are helpless — in a democracy — to rein in the other 10% is a notion that needs examining.
    I think it must come at least in part down to what sort of democracy you’re talking about. Structural considerations, perhaps.

  619. getting shot obviates your need for any of those other things
    True, but there are many, many ways to kill people in bits and pieces or all at once.
    While the overall homicides (approximately 17,000) and homicides by guns (approximately 9,000) have been trending downwards for 30 years, counted homicides by the police (probably over 1,200 with just under 1,000 yearly) are likely to reach 1,300.
    However!
    Unemployment and homelessness have been increasing while income and life expectancy has been declining for roughly a decade. Unless you are in the top 20% then you’re fine. The top 10% has gotten some increase and the increase wealth and life expectancy of the 1% is significant.
    So while the increase in mass deaths (which increases in all societies with increasing wealth disparities) is very bad, going OMG Gunz! while the total amount of death in our society is growing in the bottom 80% or 260,000,000 Americans. Mostly the poor, the old, the sick, and children.
    It would be nice if the furor over the more than half a million homeless (500,000+) reaches even half of that over guns. Or the over 10% maybe as high as 20% looking at the participation rate. That would be nice, too.

  620. getting shot obviates your need for any of those other things
    True, but there are many, many ways to kill people in bits and pieces or all at once.
    While the overall homicides (approximately 17,000) and homicides by guns (approximately 9,000) have been trending downwards for 30 years, counted homicides by the police (probably over 1,200 with just under 1,000 yearly) are likely to reach 1,300.
    However!
    Unemployment and homelessness have been increasing while income and life expectancy has been declining for roughly a decade. Unless you are in the top 20% then you’re fine. The top 10% has gotten some increase and the increase wealth and life expectancy of the 1% is significant.
    So while the increase in mass deaths (which increases in all societies with increasing wealth disparities) is very bad, going OMG Gunz! while the total amount of death in our society is growing in the bottom 80% or 260,000,000 Americans. Mostly the poor, the old, the sick, and children.
    It would be nice if the furor over the more than half a million homeless (500,000+) reaches even half of that over guns. Or the over 10% maybe as high as 20% looking at the participation rate. That would be nice, too.

  621. I am too late to the festivities, and too frazzled by life, to participate meaningfully, or even frivolously, in political discourse. But I am still here, and listening/reading, FWIW.
    And I can supply data on my (geographical) mobility, a topic raised earlier here, by age (roughly)
    1-3: Los Angeles, California
    3-7: Kunming, China
    7-9: Santa Ana, California
    10: Glendale, California
    11-13: Santa Ana (2) – same house as before
    14-20: Los Angeles (2) – same house as before
    20-23: London
    23 (briefly): Ann Arbor, Michigan
    24-25: US Army – Ft Dix (NJ), Ft Myer (VA0
    26-27: Ann Arbor (2) – new apartment
    28-29: Madrid and Manila
    30-37: Ann Arbor (3) – new apartment, then new house
    37-38: Chicago
    39-42: Canberra (Australia)
    42-60: Hong Kong. One very early apartment change, but otherwise longest ever in one place – except for one year’s leave in Fullerton (CA) and another six months in London.
    60-74 (present): Durham, NC
    So I’m “from” California, but basically left there more than 50 years ago, since when I’ve spent over a decade (each) in Ann Arbor, Hong Kong, and Durham. Home is here, now, but it’s not “home” as many conceive it.
    Along the way I’ve rooted for so many different US sports teams it’s hard to keep track of, but just in baseball I’ve got some affection/affiliation for LA Dodgers, LA Angels, Detroit Tigers, Chicago Cubs, and Tampa Bay Rays (whose AAA affiliate is the Durham Bulls). I even cheered for the original (?) Washington Senators before they decamped to Texas.
    Not to mention Chelsea FC, Wales (in Rugby Union), and the Canberra Raiders
    Also – during the year and a half my wife and I were in Madrid and Manila, every single member of both of our families moved. Some of them just across town, but some halfway across the country (NY to Missouri, Chicago to Glendale). No one at the same address as when we left.
    Roots? What are these “roots” of which people speak?

  622. I am too late to the festivities, and too frazzled by life, to participate meaningfully, or even frivolously, in political discourse. But I am still here, and listening/reading, FWIW.
    And I can supply data on my (geographical) mobility, a topic raised earlier here, by age (roughly)
    1-3: Los Angeles, California
    3-7: Kunming, China
    7-9: Santa Ana, California
    10: Glendale, California
    11-13: Santa Ana (2) – same house as before
    14-20: Los Angeles (2) – same house as before
    20-23: London
    23 (briefly): Ann Arbor, Michigan
    24-25: US Army – Ft Dix (NJ), Ft Myer (VA0
    26-27: Ann Arbor (2) – new apartment
    28-29: Madrid and Manila
    30-37: Ann Arbor (3) – new apartment, then new house
    37-38: Chicago
    39-42: Canberra (Australia)
    42-60: Hong Kong. One very early apartment change, but otherwise longest ever in one place – except for one year’s leave in Fullerton (CA) and another six months in London.
    60-74 (present): Durham, NC
    So I’m “from” California, but basically left there more than 50 years ago, since when I’ve spent over a decade (each) in Ann Arbor, Hong Kong, and Durham. Home is here, now, but it’s not “home” as many conceive it.
    Along the way I’ve rooted for so many different US sports teams it’s hard to keep track of, but just in baseball I’ve got some affection/affiliation for LA Dodgers, LA Angels, Detroit Tigers, Chicago Cubs, and Tampa Bay Rays (whose AAA affiliate is the Durham Bulls). I even cheered for the original (?) Washington Senators before they decamped to Texas.
    Not to mention Chelsea FC, Wales (in Rugby Union), and the Canberra Raiders
    Also – during the year and a half my wife and I were in Madrid and Manila, every single member of both of our families moved. Some of them just across town, but some halfway across the country (NY to Missouri, Chicago to Glendale). No one at the same address as when we left.
    Roots? What are these “roots” of which people speak?

  623. It would be nice if the furor over the more than half a million homeless (500,000+) reaches even half of that over guns.
    If you live in Seattle, you would not have written that! LOL.

  624. It would be nice if the furor over the more than half a million homeless (500,000+) reaches even half of that over guns.
    If you live in Seattle, you would not have written that! LOL.

  625. JBird,
    There’s wide gulf between “OMG Gunz!” and the “Guns: fuggedaboutit” attitude favored by the NRA and a largish fraction of the downtrodden 90% of Atlantic article fame.
    Almost no problem you can name has a magic-bullet solution (if you’ll pardon the expression). Not poverty, not disparity, not cancer, not gun deaths, not global warming, not religion-fueled wars. Baby steps are the only steps available in most cases.
    Registration, licensing, and insurance requirements do not prevent traffic deaths — but only a fool would argue that 1)they don’t do something to help, or 2)they impose an undue burden on the right to travel.
    The real OMG!-spouting comes from the “OMG! Slippery slope!” snowflakes who talk as if a registered gun, wielded by a licensed owner who carries liability insurance is somehow less effective against “bad guys”, and more prone to confiscation by jack-booted guvmint thugs than cars are. Some people react to baby steps as if they are either pointless or the end of the world. Such people probably opposed seat belts, too.
    And not for nothing, but housing the homeless and feeding the hungry is never going to happen in a single noble leap, either. I wish it could be done, but I’ll take any baby step in the right direction that can be taken (even by Democrats) against the opposition of the (generally Republican) “Oh noes! Soshulism!”, slippery-slope-to-serfdom crowd.
    –TP

  626. JBird,
    There’s wide gulf between “OMG Gunz!” and the “Guns: fuggedaboutit” attitude favored by the NRA and a largish fraction of the downtrodden 90% of Atlantic article fame.
    Almost no problem you can name has a magic-bullet solution (if you’ll pardon the expression). Not poverty, not disparity, not cancer, not gun deaths, not global warming, not religion-fueled wars. Baby steps are the only steps available in most cases.
    Registration, licensing, and insurance requirements do not prevent traffic deaths — but only a fool would argue that 1)they don’t do something to help, or 2)they impose an undue burden on the right to travel.
    The real OMG!-spouting comes from the “OMG! Slippery slope!” snowflakes who talk as if a registered gun, wielded by a licensed owner who carries liability insurance is somehow less effective against “bad guys”, and more prone to confiscation by jack-booted guvmint thugs than cars are. Some people react to baby steps as if they are either pointless or the end of the world. Such people probably opposed seat belts, too.
    And not for nothing, but housing the homeless and feeding the hungry is never going to happen in a single noble leap, either. I wish it could be done, but I’ll take any baby step in the right direction that can be taken (even by Democrats) against the opposition of the (generally Republican) “Oh noes! Soshulism!”, slippery-slope-to-serfdom crowd.
    –TP

  627. It would be nice if the furor over the more than half a million homeless (500,000+) reaches even half of that over guns.
    homeless people don’t shoot up schools, movie theaters, and concert venues.
    not disputing your basic point, just an observation about why some things get more attention than others.
    pay people who work enough to have a decent life. take care of the people who can’t work or have difficulty finding and maintaining a source of livelihood, for whatever reason.
    these things aren’t hard to do. most places that have the resources we do, do them. quite a few places that don’t have the resources we do, do them.
    we as a society simply value other things more. shame on us.

  628. It would be nice if the furor over the more than half a million homeless (500,000+) reaches even half of that over guns.
    homeless people don’t shoot up schools, movie theaters, and concert venues.
    not disputing your basic point, just an observation about why some things get more attention than others.
    pay people who work enough to have a decent life. take care of the people who can’t work or have difficulty finding and maintaining a source of livelihood, for whatever reason.
    these things aren’t hard to do. most places that have the resources we do, do them. quite a few places that don’t have the resources we do, do them.
    we as a society simply value other things more. shame on us.

  629. What russell said, 08:25
    And another consideration for shooters getting all the attention being a bad thing….
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence
    In the day of Eric Harris, we could try to console ourselves with the thought that there was nothing we could do, that no law or intervention or restrictions on guns could make a difference in the face of someone so evil. But the riot has now engulfed the boys who were once content to play with chemistry sets in the basement. The problem is not that there is an endless supply of deeply disturbed young men who are willing to contemplate horrific acts. It’s worse. It’s that young men no longer need to be deeply disturbed to contemplate horrific acts. …

  630. What russell said, 08:25
    And another consideration for shooters getting all the attention being a bad thing….
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence
    In the day of Eric Harris, we could try to console ourselves with the thought that there was nothing we could do, that no law or intervention or restrictions on guns could make a difference in the face of someone so evil. But the riot has now engulfed the boys who were once content to play with chemistry sets in the basement. The problem is not that there is an endless supply of deeply disturbed young men who are willing to contemplate horrific acts. It’s worse. It’s that young men no longer need to be deeply disturbed to contemplate horrific acts. …

  631. I will take a little shot at incrementalism. I guess it depends on how one defines it, but progress here tends to come in large steps. FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society. Also, on the other side, the Republicans have made government social programs the boogeyman because they speak in very large terms about how government and taxation are the worst things in the world, the road to serfdom, etc… They don’t get all of what they want obviously, and I don’t think they really want some of what they say ( big government has its uses for conservatives if they control it) but they always present their big picture as the obvious desirable goal we should all be striving for.
    Do Democrats do the same? No. We are told single payer will never ever happen, we have to be practical, and if anything it is the Republicans who claim the Democrats are in their sneaky way trying to bring us socialism, which by their definition means Sweden or Pol Pot’s Cambodia as if there was any difference. Democrats sometimes try to sound like Republicans by claiming they are the ones who are really fiscally responsible and wish to strike Grand Bargains.
    In practice you don’t get all you want, but the steps can sometimes be large and you should openly think big and not be defensive in saying that the free market dream of the Republicans is as unworkable as communism. Read Karl Polanyi, who I stumbled on in the late 90’s when Democrats were so proud of how they had left the New Deal behind. Back then Tom Friedman was yammering on about the wisdom of financial markets and CEO’s and golden straitjackets and wasn’t considered a joke. Social Security privatization was treated seriously.
    On my favorite subject, the Palestinians in the US have always had to argue their case within a Zionist framework. One started out with the presupposition that the Israelis had every right to drive them out of 78 percent of their homeland and the argument was over how much of the remaining 22 percent they might be allowed to have if they were worthy, after an endless negotiating process. It is a bad place to be in if claiming all 22 percent of your homeland is one extreme of the political spectrum. The left in the US on economic issues has often acted like it was in the same position.

  632. I will take a little shot at incrementalism. I guess it depends on how one defines it, but progress here tends to come in large steps. FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society. Also, on the other side, the Republicans have made government social programs the boogeyman because they speak in very large terms about how government and taxation are the worst things in the world, the road to serfdom, etc… They don’t get all of what they want obviously, and I don’t think they really want some of what they say ( big government has its uses for conservatives if they control it) but they always present their big picture as the obvious desirable goal we should all be striving for.
    Do Democrats do the same? No. We are told single payer will never ever happen, we have to be practical, and if anything it is the Republicans who claim the Democrats are in their sneaky way trying to bring us socialism, which by their definition means Sweden or Pol Pot’s Cambodia as if there was any difference. Democrats sometimes try to sound like Republicans by claiming they are the ones who are really fiscally responsible and wish to strike Grand Bargains.
    In practice you don’t get all you want, but the steps can sometimes be large and you should openly think big and not be defensive in saying that the free market dream of the Republicans is as unworkable as communism. Read Karl Polanyi, who I stumbled on in the late 90’s when Democrats were so proud of how they had left the New Deal behind. Back then Tom Friedman was yammering on about the wisdom of financial markets and CEO’s and golden straitjackets and wasn’t considered a joke. Social Security privatization was treated seriously.
    On my favorite subject, the Palestinians in the US have always had to argue their case within a Zionist framework. One started out with the presupposition that the Israelis had every right to drive them out of 78 percent of their homeland and the argument was over how much of the remaining 22 percent they might be allowed to have if they were worthy, after an endless negotiating process. It is a bad place to be in if claiming all 22 percent of your homeland is one extreme of the political spectrum. The left in the US on economic issues has often acted like it was in the same position.

  637. I really should give more work on a response to the thoughtful replies. Let me respond by saying that the various economic, social, and political dysfunctions (at least for most, although not top 10%) has been happening by baby steps since at least ~1970. Step by step. I have not patience really for using baby steps in reversing this.
    I use guns as an example of the “Look Squirrels!” tactics used by the entire political establishment because homicides in general, and deaths by guns too, have been declining for roughly thirty years; the exception is the mass shootings my mainly white and it matches the increase in income/wealth disparity, and economic and social stresses suffered. You can almost make a straight line chart of stresses to mass shootings.
    The main correlation among countries in homicides, and homicides using guns, is not the amount of guns, nor the legality of them, it is the increase or decrease in poverty, and wealth and income, differences. There are European countries with a fair amount of legal gun ownership, and there are the Latin American countries in which gun ownership is basically illegal. What are the differences in homicides, or deaths in general, between them. Has the United States become more like Latin America or more like Europe?
    The goal of the current political leadership is not to deal with guns, or gun violence, but to increase the votes, money, and passions of their base. Whatever you views on guns only determines which political party is using you.
    Finally, the World Socialist Web Site has an article that does a better job of explaining, I think.
    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/05/19/mssf-m19.html

  638. I really should give more work on a response to the thoughtful replies. Let me respond by saying that the various economic, social, and political dysfunctions (at least for most, although not top 10%) has been happening by baby steps since at least ~1970. Step by step. I have not patience really for using baby steps in reversing this.
    I use guns as an example of the “Look Squirrels!” tactics used by the entire political establishment because homicides in general, and deaths by guns too, have been declining for roughly thirty years; the exception is the mass shootings my mainly white and it matches the increase in income/wealth disparity, and economic and social stresses suffered. You can almost make a straight line chart of stresses to mass shootings.
    The main correlation among countries in homicides, and homicides using guns, is not the amount of guns, nor the legality of them, it is the increase or decrease in poverty, and wealth and income, differences. There are European countries with a fair amount of legal gun ownership, and there are the Latin American countries in which gun ownership is basically illegal. What are the differences in homicides, or deaths in general, between them. Has the United States become more like Latin America or more like Europe?
    The goal of the current political leadership is not to deal with guns, or gun violence, but to increase the votes, money, and passions of their base. Whatever you views on guns only determines which political party is using you.
    Finally, the World Socialist Web Site has an article that does a better job of explaining, I think.
    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/05/19/mssf-m19.html

  643. From your link, Donald:
    “People who have health emergencies can’t wait for us to have a theoretical debate about some better idea that will never, ever come to pass.”
    Good for you, Donald, for finding that.
    Maybe your health is good enough for you to wait, and if so good for you.

  644. From your link, Donald:
    “People who have health emergencies can’t wait for us to have a theoretical debate about some better idea that will never, ever come to pass.”
    Good for you, Donald, for finding that.
    Maybe your health is good enough for you to wait, and if so good for you.

  645. I’m scratching my head a bit about making healthcare the place where one proves that big steps are better than incremental steps. Looking at the history of Obamacare and the efforts by the current admin to sabotage any benefits really underlines how it is impossible to imagine any change, absent getting on board with some of the Count’s policy suggestions, could be large steps.

  646. I’m scratching my head a bit about making healthcare the place where one proves that big steps are better than incremental steps. Looking at the history of Obamacare and the efforts by the current admin to sabotage any benefits really underlines how it is impossible to imagine any change, absent getting on board with some of the Count’s policy suggestions, could be large steps.

  647. Some kind of “topia” on the horizon, worse than “dys”, I expect.
    https://www.thecut.com/2018/05/sex-robots-realbotix.html
    Via Balloon Juice
    I have 38 jokes already and counting.
    I could see mp appointing both male and female sex robots to Cabinet positions and replacing most of the White House staff, with the exception of Kellyanne Conway, during his second, third and fourth terms, the last one occurring after he’s released from jail, the republican proving ground for advanced statesmanship, in 2064.
    I look forward to the Ross Douthatalittletotheleft robot with the Jordan Peterson attachments and pre-programmed algorithms, including a head-mounted automatic weapon for those days when even a male robot is feeling a little rejected and Incel.
    It will have a driver’s license too, as an option.
    And a Twitter account.
    Were I making movie about a meatworld guy or girl shopping for a used personal sex bot, this song would lead off the soundtrack.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JGPcOkebXc

  648. Some kind of “topia” on the horizon, worse than “dys”, I expect.
    https://www.thecut.com/2018/05/sex-robots-realbotix.html
    Via Balloon Juice
    I have 38 jokes already and counting.
    I could see mp appointing both male and female sex robots to Cabinet positions and replacing most of the White House staff, with the exception of Kellyanne Conway, during his second, third and fourth terms, the last one occurring after he’s released from jail, the republican proving ground for advanced statesmanship, in 2064.
    I look forward to the Ross Douthatalittletotheleft robot with the Jordan Peterson attachments and pre-programmed algorithms, including a head-mounted automatic weapon for those days when even a male robot is feeling a little rejected and Incel.
    It will have a driver’s license too, as an option.
    And a Twitter account.
    Were I making movie about a meatworld guy or girl shopping for a used personal sex bot, this song would lead off the soundtrack.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JGPcOkebXc

  651. Donald: I will take a little shot at incrementalism. I guess it depends on how one defines it, but progress here tends to come in large steps. FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society.
    FDR’s New Deal wasn’t exactly a single big thing, though one can reasonably call it an instance of punctuated equilibrium if analogies between political economy and biological evolution are permitted.
    FDR’s election over Hoover was a single big thing. I imagine, but stand ready to be corrected, that there were Americans in 1932 who opposed FDR “from the Left”. That there were Americans, even in 1932, who went around claiming “not a dime’s worth of difference” between Republicans and Democrats would not surprise me at all. Elections have had consequences for a long time, as have complaints that they’re merely exercises in choosing the lesser evil.
    JBird: There are European countries with a fair amount of legal gun ownership, and there are the Latin American countries in which gun ownership is basically illegal. What are the differences in homicides, or deaths in general, between them. Has the United States become more like Latin America or more like Europe?
    Leaving aside the temptation to ask for further and better particulars on European gun ownership, I will merely ask: does regulation of all those guns in Europe differ from the practically-no-regulation regime Americans rejoice in?
    –TP

  652. Donald: I will take a little shot at incrementalism. I guess it depends on how one defines it, but progress here tends to come in large steps. FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society.
    FDR’s New Deal wasn’t exactly a single big thing, though one can reasonably call it an instance of punctuated equilibrium if analogies between political economy and biological evolution are permitted.
    FDR’s election over Hoover was a single big thing. I imagine, but stand ready to be corrected, that there were Americans in 1932 who opposed FDR “from the Left”. That there were Americans, even in 1932, who went around claiming “not a dime’s worth of difference” between Republicans and Democrats would not surprise me at all. Elections have had consequences for a long time, as have complaints that they’re merely exercises in choosing the lesser evil.
    JBird: There are European countries with a fair amount of legal gun ownership, and there are the Latin American countries in which gun ownership is basically illegal. What are the differences in homicides, or deaths in general, between them. Has the United States become more like Latin America or more like Europe?
    Leaving aside the temptation to ask for further and better particulars on European gun ownership, I will merely ask: does regulation of all those guns in Europe differ from the practically-no-regulation regime Americans rejoice in?
    –TP

  653. https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/05/20/the-invisible-hand-in-the-sexual-marketplace/
    I have plenty of thoughts about the so-called “sexual marketplace”, first of all, that calling it a marketplace is full of shit conservative thinking gone full-bore whackadoodle, but it has never occurred to me to demand affirmative action, reparations, and unemployment benefits to ameliorate my relative lack of opportunity in it, by which I mean I’m not Warren Beatty, and if my demands are not met, I just might have to become the Pol Pot of romance.
    I know when to keep my invisible hands to myself and on the imaginary women in my dreams, where they belong.
    If it’s a sexual marketplace, may I cruise the aisles for free samples, like at Costco.
    I will accept coupons for two for the price of one freebies.
    I’d like to upgrade to funny business class.

  654. https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/05/20/the-invisible-hand-in-the-sexual-marketplace/
    I have plenty of thoughts about the so-called “sexual marketplace”, first of all, that calling it a marketplace is full of shit conservative thinking gone full-bore whackadoodle, but it has never occurred to me to demand affirmative action, reparations, and unemployment benefits to ameliorate my relative lack of opportunity in it, by which I mean I’m not Warren Beatty, and if my demands are not met, I just might have to become the Pol Pot of romance.
    I know when to keep my invisible hands to myself and on the imaginary women in my dreams, where they belong.
    If it’s a sexual marketplace, may I cruise the aisles for free samples, like at Costco.
    I will accept coupons for two for the price of one freebies.
    I’d like to upgrade to funny business class.

  655. there are the Latin American countries in which gun ownership is basically illegal. What are the differences in homicides, or deaths in general, between them. Has the United States become more like Latin America or more like Europe?
    the implicit assumption that Latin America and the US are equal in every way except gun laws seems shaky, IMO.

  656. there are the Latin American countries in which gun ownership is basically illegal. What are the differences in homicides, or deaths in general, between them. Has the United States become more like Latin America or more like Europe?
    the implicit assumption that Latin America and the US are equal in every way except gun laws seems shaky, IMO.

  657. I will take a little shot at incrementalism. I guess it depends on how one defines it, but progress here tends to come in large steps. FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society.
    Politics and law tend to be lagging indicators of social trends. By the time politicians are ready to stand up for or against some policy or law, most of the country has already made up its mind.

  658. I will take a little shot at incrementalism. I guess it depends on how one defines it, but progress here tends to come in large steps. FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society.
    Politics and law tend to be lagging indicators of social trends. By the time politicians are ready to stand up for or against some policy or law, most of the country has already made up its mind.

  659. An interesting article, tangentially related to making big changes.
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/stephanie-kelton-economy-washington_us_5afee5eae4b0463cdba15121
    I think liberals should be unabashedly for single payer while accepting the ACA as better than what came before. It is possible to hold two such thoughts in one’s head simultaneously, except when talking about American politics. The far left has the same problem— a friend of mine in real life has trouble acknowledging that the ACA did help some people.

  660. An interesting article, tangentially related to making big changes.
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/stephanie-kelton-economy-washington_us_5afee5eae4b0463cdba15121
    I think liberals should be unabashedly for single payer while accepting the ACA as better than what came before. It is possible to hold two such thoughts in one’s head simultaneously, except when talking about American politics. The far left has the same problem— a friend of mine in real life has trouble acknowledging that the ACA did help some people.

  661. I think liberals should be unabashedly for single payer while accepting the ACA as better than what came before.
    Kind of moot until we can get … yes, wait for it … Democrats elected.

  662. I think liberals should be unabashedly for single payer while accepting the ACA as better than what came before.
    Kind of moot until we can get … yes, wait for it … Democrats elected.

  663. Getting Democrats elected might possibly be easier if people on the left pushed back harder on conservative framing. Republicans have been pushing their ( hypocritical) small government pro market ideology constantly since the late 70’s or so. ( Hypocritical because they like big government for some purposes.) Democrats have often accepted that framework, thinking it was the path to victory. Actually, I am talking about Democrats as though they were a monolith, but they’re not. Anyway, I think centrist Democrats saw the Reagan era as an opportunity to pull the Democrats to the right. It worked. That was the Clinton era. I am not sure it works so well anymore. Of course I am also biased.
    I am going to leave the argument there. There are others I have read who could make the point more strongly, but I am pretty rusty on this stuff.

  664. Getting Democrats elected might possibly be easier if people on the left pushed back harder on conservative framing. Republicans have been pushing their ( hypocritical) small government pro market ideology constantly since the late 70’s or so. ( Hypocritical because they like big government for some purposes.) Democrats have often accepted that framework, thinking it was the path to victory. Actually, I am talking about Democrats as though they were a monolith, but they’re not. Anyway, I think centrist Democrats saw the Reagan era as an opportunity to pull the Democrats to the right. It worked. That was the Clinton era. I am not sure it works so well anymore. Of course I am also biased.
    I am going to leave the argument there. There are others I have read who could make the point more strongly, but I am pretty rusty on this stuff.

  665. One thing is for sure: if you want Democrats to win, don’t let sapient run the PR campaign.

  666. One thing is for sure: if you want Democrats to win, don’t let sapient run the PR campaign.

  667. Sapient,
    Then we’ll need to elect different Democrats will we not? It seems to be a thing to say that demanding single payer as the same as asking for unicorns. There has been efforts for close to a century to get actual universal healthcare, but regardless of what Party is the majority, it has not happened.
    Usually pragmatic steps are better, but that’s not working, and people are still dying or going bankrupt despite the ACA. Honestly, I want to burn the current “medical” system to ashes as I have personally suffered and seen what it has done to people I know.

  668. Sapient,
    Then we’ll need to elect different Democrats will we not? It seems to be a thing to say that demanding single payer as the same as asking for unicorns. There has been efforts for close to a century to get actual universal healthcare, but regardless of what Party is the majority, it has not happened.
    Usually pragmatic steps are better, but that’s not working, and people are still dying or going bankrupt despite the ACA. Honestly, I want to burn the current “medical” system to ashes as I have personally suffered and seen what it has done to people I know.

  669. Tony P
    I missed your question. Sorry.
    The countries with the greatest gun violence, and violence in general, are countries that both have the strictest gun laws and the greatest income and wealth inequality. Please note that the countries with the greatest violence also do not have the highest rates of gun ownership. The main determinant looks to be the wealth and income gap. The greater the gap, the greater the homicide rate using guns.
    http://www.gregpalast.com/florida-honduras-inequality-kills-want-to-end-the-american-shooting-epidemic/

  670. Tony P
    I missed your question. Sorry.
    The countries with the greatest gun violence, and violence in general, are countries that both have the strictest gun laws and the greatest income and wealth inequality. Please note that the countries with the greatest violence also do not have the highest rates of gun ownership. The main determinant looks to be the wealth and income gap. The greater the gap, the greater the homicide rate using guns.
    http://www.gregpalast.com/florida-honduras-inequality-kills-want-to-end-the-american-shooting-epidemic/

  671. I think centrist Democrats saw the Reagan era as an opportunity to pull the Democrats to the right. It worked. That was the Clinton era.
    I have no problem with the thesis that Clinton was to the right of where a lot of Democrats wished to go. (Although I think that there’s a case to be made for the idea that that’s what enabled him to get elected.)
    But I wonder whether it was a case of “pulling the Democrats to the right”. Or more a case of moving them less quickly to the left. I confess that at the time I wasn’t watching the internals of the Democratic Party closely enough to be sure at this distance.
    However my perception is that, over time, the country as a whole has been moving to what would previously have been considered the left. Not without (temporary, partial) reversals — one of which we are seeing currently. Not as quickly as some would like . . . although far faster than others like. But if you step back and look at what things are like now, vs what they were like 20-30 years ago (i.e. at a time we all can remember), the changes are pretty striking. And pretty much all in the same direction. Look back half a century, which a couple of us can, and it’s even more striking.

  672. I think centrist Democrats saw the Reagan era as an opportunity to pull the Democrats to the right. It worked. That was the Clinton era.
    I have no problem with the thesis that Clinton was to the right of where a lot of Democrats wished to go. (Although I think that there’s a case to be made for the idea that that’s what enabled him to get elected.)
    But I wonder whether it was a case of “pulling the Democrats to the right”. Or more a case of moving them less quickly to the left. I confess that at the time I wasn’t watching the internals of the Democratic Party closely enough to be sure at this distance.
    However my perception is that, over time, the country as a whole has been moving to what would previously have been considered the left. Not without (temporary, partial) reversals — one of which we are seeing currently. Not as quickly as some would like . . . although far faster than others like. But if you step back and look at what things are like now, vs what they were like 20-30 years ago (i.e. at a time we all can remember), the changes are pretty striking. And pretty much all in the same direction. Look back half a century, which a couple of us can, and it’s even more striking.

  673. One thing is for sure: if you want Democrats to win, don’t let sapient run the PR campaign.
    Your gem-like wit is on display again, novakant!
    It seems to be a thing to say that demanding single payer as the same as asking for unicorns.
    It’s not “a thing”. If you were paying attention to the political struggle just to get the ACA with a public option passed, you might have noticed that it was a political impossibility. The ACA was passed ten years ago. As all legislation does, it needed some minor amendments. Instead, any additional work on it was obstructed by Republicans, and now the program is being sabotaged. It can’t really be judged on its own merits since the good faith of Republicans, and concern for their own constituents, is entirely lacking.
    Single payer is fine with me, as would be many “socialist” tweaks to our current system. But I don’t like Bernie Sanders for a number of reasons, not least because he refused to disclose his tax returns while negatively campaigning on facts made available through Hillary Clinton’s transparency, and interviews made it plain that he didn’t understand his own policy initiatives.
    As for Clinton wanting to pull the Democratic party to the right? No, he wanted to win. He did win (after a primary against candidates running to his left), and he was able to do some good even with Newt Gingrich as speaker of the House.

  674. One thing is for sure: if you want Democrats to win, don’t let sapient run the PR campaign.
    Your gem-like wit is on display again, novakant!
    It seems to be a thing to say that demanding single payer as the same as asking for unicorns.
    It’s not “a thing”. If you were paying attention to the political struggle just to get the ACA with a public option passed, you might have noticed that it was a political impossibility. The ACA was passed ten years ago. As all legislation does, it needed some minor amendments. Instead, any additional work on it was obstructed by Republicans, and now the program is being sabotaged. It can’t really be judged on its own merits since the good faith of Republicans, and concern for their own constituents, is entirely lacking.
    Single payer is fine with me, as would be many “socialist” tweaks to our current system. But I don’t like Bernie Sanders for a number of reasons, not least because he refused to disclose his tax returns while negatively campaigning on facts made available through Hillary Clinton’s transparency, and interviews made it plain that he didn’t understand his own policy initiatives.
    As for Clinton wanting to pull the Democratic party to the right? No, he wanted to win. He did win (after a primary against candidates running to his left), and he was able to do some good even with Newt Gingrich as speaker of the House.

  675. over time, the country as a whole has been moving to what would previously have been considered the left
    maybe, ish.
    i think some social, which is to say everyday cultural, things have shifted.
    in other ways, no.

  676. over time, the country as a whole has been moving to what would previously have been considered the left
    maybe, ish.
    i think some social, which is to say everyday cultural, things have shifted.
    in other ways, no.

  677. You might want to consider (just for example) how much less constricted we are in who we will marry. Gay marriage being only the most recent bit. Some of us, after all, were born while anti-miscegenation laws were still on the book across most of the country. Today, there’s no significant desire to reinstate them.
    Are there still people who recoil from those changes? Absolutely. But overall the culture (not just the law but the culture) has changed, and it ain’t going back.
    Are there other places, social, legal, or whatever, which have not changed? Yup. But are there significant changes to the right? The only one that springs to mind concerns guns. Not to say that guns aren’t a serious problem. Just that they’re the only significant example* that I can think of right off where change hasn’t been to the left.
    * You could argue that tax laws have, too. But I think that’s a case of a temporary shift, which is already showing signs of a limited shelf life.

  678. You might want to consider (just for example) how much less constricted we are in who we will marry. Gay marriage being only the most recent bit. Some of us, after all, were born while anti-miscegenation laws were still on the book across most of the country. Today, there’s no significant desire to reinstate them.
    Are there still people who recoil from those changes? Absolutely. But overall the culture (not just the law but the culture) has changed, and it ain’t going back.
    Are there other places, social, legal, or whatever, which have not changed? Yup. But are there significant changes to the right? The only one that springs to mind concerns guns. Not to say that guns aren’t a serious problem. Just that they’re the only significant example* that I can think of right off where change hasn’t been to the left.
    * You could argue that tax laws have, too. But I think that’s a case of a temporary shift, which is already showing signs of a limited shelf life.

  679. wj: Just that [gun laws are] the only significant example* that I can think of right off where change hasn’t been to the left.
    Think harder.
    Cultural and socially, yes, we’ve moved leftward, although it’s unfortunate that the things you list are even framed in that way. Nor am I as sure as you are that we’ll never start sliding backward. Access to abortion is under constant assault, just to take the most obvious example.
    As to taxes, “temporary” is questionable. The top bracket marginal rate has been declining since I was a kid in the fifties, while economic inequality has reached obscene levels.
    The rightward shift in the economic realm goes far beyond the tax laws. The buying power of the minimum wage has been declining for decades. Bargaining power for workers? Kind of a quaint notion these days.
    The ACA represents a certain kind of progress, but our health care system is a Kafka-esque nightmare, even though the rest of the developed world has somehow managed to evolve not one but many ways to run better systems than ours.
    Let’s see. Citizens United? Is that a leftward shift? The ongoing decimation of government agencies and functions? Maybe temporary; one can only hope.

  680. wj: Just that [gun laws are] the only significant example* that I can think of right off where change hasn’t been to the left.
    Think harder.
    Cultural and socially, yes, we’ve moved leftward, although it’s unfortunate that the things you list are even framed in that way. Nor am I as sure as you are that we’ll never start sliding backward. Access to abortion is under constant assault, just to take the most obvious example.
    As to taxes, “temporary” is questionable. The top bracket marginal rate has been declining since I was a kid in the fifties, while economic inequality has reached obscene levels.
    The rightward shift in the economic realm goes far beyond the tax laws. The buying power of the minimum wage has been declining for decades. Bargaining power for workers? Kind of a quaint notion these days.
    The ACA represents a certain kind of progress, but our health care system is a Kafka-esque nightmare, even though the rest of the developed world has somehow managed to evolve not one but many ways to run better systems than ours.
    Let’s see. Citizens United? Is that a leftward shift? The ongoing decimation of government agencies and functions? Maybe temporary; one can only hope.

  681. You might want to consider (just for example) how much less constricted we are in who we will marry.
    Yes. So, a social or cultural change.
    And how many people find Reagan’s nine most frightening words compelling?
    Labor law, financial de-regulation, environmental regulation, any response whatsoever to climate change. How many people are on some form of public assistance, and what hoops do they have to go through to qualify. How many people are a paycheck, or a couple of paychecks, away from financial disaster.
    Compare the GINI index from 40 years ago, to now.
    I think it’s outstanding that people can marry whoever they want to marry. To be honest, that’s not so much a “left” thing as a libertarian one.
    But 40 years ago a family like the one I grew up in could be reasonably comfortable and basically financially secure on a single household income. I paid about $2k a year to go to an outstanding public university, and I got a Pell Grant to pay for part of it.
    Over the last 40 years the ideology and rhetoric of the free market has come to dominate almost every area of public life. I don’t know if you want to call that a movement to “the right” or not, but it’s one that the right has embraced and identifies with.
    As far as tax laws, in 1980 the top marginal rate was 70%. In 1986 it was 50%. Now it’s 39.6%.
    So, not temporary.

  682. You might want to consider (just for example) how much less constricted we are in who we will marry.
    Yes. So, a social or cultural change.
    And how many people find Reagan’s nine most frightening words compelling?
    Labor law, financial de-regulation, environmental regulation, any response whatsoever to climate change. How many people are on some form of public assistance, and what hoops do they have to go through to qualify. How many people are a paycheck, or a couple of paychecks, away from financial disaster.
    Compare the GINI index from 40 years ago, to now.
    I think it’s outstanding that people can marry whoever they want to marry. To be honest, that’s not so much a “left” thing as a libertarian one.
    But 40 years ago a family like the one I grew up in could be reasonably comfortable and basically financially secure on a single household income. I paid about $2k a year to go to an outstanding public university, and I got a Pell Grant to pay for part of it.
    Over the last 40 years the ideology and rhetoric of the free market has come to dominate almost every area of public life. I don’t know if you want to call that a movement to “the right” or not, but it’s one that the right has embraced and identifies with.
    As far as tax laws, in 1980 the top marginal rate was 70%. In 1986 it was 50%. Now it’s 39.6%.
    So, not temporary.

  683. wrs.
    In particular, I’m glad he mentioned the hoops people have to go through the get public assistance. I know someone who may end up unable to work because of a medical condition, and the disability system makes the Kafka-esque health care system look like a walk in the park.
    Not to mention that there’s a constant barrage of vicious commentary from the right on people who need help of one sort or another. Corporate welfare on a grand scale is fine, though….

  684. wrs.
    In particular, I’m glad he mentioned the hoops people have to go through the get public assistance. I know someone who may end up unable to work because of a medical condition, and the disability system makes the Kafka-esque health care system look like a walk in the park.
    Not to mention that there’s a constant barrage of vicious commentary from the right on people who need help of one sort or another. Corporate welfare on a grand scale is fine, though….

  685. our health care system is a Kafka-esque nightmare
    A friend of my wife and I was recently diagnosed with squamous cell cancer. He asked my wife to help organize a support system for him while he undergoes treatment. He asked her because she’s really good at stuff like that, and has done similar things for other friends when they’ve faced illness.
    Our friend is in for a week of radiation five days a week for the next five weeks, plus chemo in the first and last week. There’s a really good radiation therapy clinic about 10 minutes from where he lives, but he doesn’t have any money, so he’s got weird insurance, so he has to go about 45 minutes away for that.
    Then, 45 minutes back to the next town over from here for the chemo. On the same day. He is doing all of this as an outpatient, so they’re sending him home with some kind of chemo delivery fanny pack that will trickle the chemicals into him through a port in his neck. While he hangs out at home and reads a book, I guess. I don’t know what he does if there’s a problem or malfunction or complication.
    Inpatient care is not available to him. There is no coordinated care regime available to him, he has to go one place for some things, other places for other things. He is really fucking poor – single room occupancy, cleans floors at the dog shelter and a local non-profit for a living poor – but he makes too much money to qualify for the free ride service available in this area. He has no car. Because he’s really freaking poor. So, we’re trying to cobble together rides for him, so he can get to his appointments and not freaking die.
    He won’t be able to work, so our church is trying to get some money together to cover his rent for a couple of months. I’m not sure who’s covering meals, it’s not enough to just buy groceries for him because he doesn’t really have a kitchen. We’re not sure if he has a refrigerator.
    Because he’s really freaking poor.
    If he didn’t belong to the particular community of people that he belongs to, he would be up shit’s creek without a paddle. And when I say “the particular community”, I don’t mean we’re all saints, I mean several of us are retired and have the time and resources to devote entire days to shuttling our friend around.
    Not everybody has that. I don’t know what happens to those people. They probably get sick and die.
    This is what freedom appears to mean to a lot of people. May something like this never fall on their heads.

  686. our health care system is a Kafka-esque nightmare
    A friend of my wife and I was recently diagnosed with squamous cell cancer. He asked my wife to help organize a support system for him while he undergoes treatment. He asked her because she’s really good at stuff like that, and has done similar things for other friends when they’ve faced illness.
    Our friend is in for a week of radiation five days a week for the next five weeks, plus chemo in the first and last week. There’s a really good radiation therapy clinic about 10 minutes from where he lives, but he doesn’t have any money, so he’s got weird insurance, so he has to go about 45 minutes away for that.
    Then, 45 minutes back to the next town over from here for the chemo. On the same day. He is doing all of this as an outpatient, so they’re sending him home with some kind of chemo delivery fanny pack that will trickle the chemicals into him through a port in his neck. While he hangs out at home and reads a book, I guess. I don’t know what he does if there’s a problem or malfunction or complication.
    Inpatient care is not available to him. There is no coordinated care regime available to him, he has to go one place for some things, other places for other things. He is really fucking poor – single room occupancy, cleans floors at the dog shelter and a local non-profit for a living poor – but he makes too much money to qualify for the free ride service available in this area. He has no car. Because he’s really freaking poor. So, we’re trying to cobble together rides for him, so he can get to his appointments and not freaking die.
    He won’t be able to work, so our church is trying to get some money together to cover his rent for a couple of months. I’m not sure who’s covering meals, it’s not enough to just buy groceries for him because he doesn’t really have a kitchen. We’re not sure if he has a refrigerator.
    Because he’s really freaking poor.
    If he didn’t belong to the particular community of people that he belongs to, he would be up shit’s creek without a paddle. And when I say “the particular community”, I don’t mean we’re all saints, I mean several of us are retired and have the time and resources to devote entire days to shuttling our friend around.
    Not everybody has that. I don’t know what happens to those people. They probably get sick and die.
    This is what freedom appears to mean to a lot of people. May something like this never fall on their heads.

  687. On taxes, let me note that one of the changes under Reagan involved tax credits for low incomes. Refundable tax credits. A lot of the folks who current “conservatives” bitch about paying no taxes do so precisely because the Reagan administration made that happen. And celebrated the day the changes were signed into law.
    Do we need to not only back out the most recent tax insanity, but raise the top rates? Sure. (Not to mention getting rid of the nonsense distinction between capital gains and any other form of income.) But my take, perhaps unduly optimistic, is that what we just saw was a case of massive overreach. One which will not only collapse but result in the more sensible tax structure we need. Sometimes, regretably, it takes a serious blow upside the head to get across the message that a change is necessary. I hope and believe that this will prove to be it.
    As a side note, I must point out that pretty much nobody actually paid those 1950s top marginal rates. The effective top rates, while higher than today, were a lot closer than the nominal top rate would suggest. (Remind me to work up a post on the subject of Enough. It’s a concept that needs more attention.)

  688. On taxes, let me note that one of the changes under Reagan involved tax credits for low incomes. Refundable tax credits. A lot of the folks who current “conservatives” bitch about paying no taxes do so precisely because the Reagan administration made that happen. And celebrated the day the changes were signed into law.
    Do we need to not only back out the most recent tax insanity, but raise the top rates? Sure. (Not to mention getting rid of the nonsense distinction between capital gains and any other form of income.) But my take, perhaps unduly optimistic, is that what we just saw was a case of massive overreach. One which will not only collapse but result in the more sensible tax structure we need. Sometimes, regretably, it takes a serious blow upside the head to get across the message that a change is necessary. I hope and believe that this will prove to be it.
    As a side note, I must point out that pretty much nobody actually paid those 1950s top marginal rates. The effective top rates, while higher than today, were a lot closer than the nominal top rate would suggest. (Remind me to work up a post on the subject of Enough. It’s a concept that needs more attention.)

  689. And when I say “the particular community”, I don’t mean we’re all saints…May something like this never fall on their heads.
    You’re a lot more saintly than I am. Most of the time these days I wish something like that would fall on certain people’s heads. I can tell myself that the point would be that they’d maybe learn some empathy, but the worst of it is, they probably wouldn’t.
    🙁

  690. And when I say “the particular community”, I don’t mean we’re all saints…May something like this never fall on their heads.
    You’re a lot more saintly than I am. Most of the time these days I wish something like that would fall on certain people’s heads. I can tell myself that the point would be that they’d maybe learn some empathy, but the worst of it is, they probably wouldn’t.
    🙁

  693. But 40 years ago a family like the one I grew up in could be reasonably comfortable and basically financially secure on a single household income.
    They were financially secure on a lot fewer products and services that people expect to have and have now. And people have to work fewer hours now to have the same products available then. And there’s a lot of products available now that weren’t available then. Or only to the wealthy.
    “Looking at the average hourly earnings, however, ignores at least three very important factors: expansion of non-wage benefits, fall in the price of consumer goods and rise in price of services, such as education and healthcare.”
    U.S. Cost of Living and Wage Stagnation, 1979-2015

  694. But 40 years ago a family like the one I grew up in could be reasonably comfortable and basically financially secure on a single household income.
    They were financially secure on a lot fewer products and services that people expect to have and have now. And people have to work fewer hours now to have the same products available then. And there’s a lot of products available now that weren’t available then. Or only to the wealthy.
    “Looking at the average hourly earnings, however, ignores at least three very important factors: expansion of non-wage benefits, fall in the price of consumer goods and rise in price of services, such as education and healthcare.”
    U.S. Cost of Living and Wage Stagnation, 1979-2015

  695. After all the slicing, dicing, puréeing, mixing and manipulation of the data my parents could rent an entire house with real yards, support a family, and go to college on about 1.5 minimum wage jobs. In Santa Clara County. It did help that the minimum wage was around $11 adjusted for inflation, college was mostly free, and there were still enough fruit orchards left that among my earliest memories is of the beautiful scents of all those trees blooming. It says something when a preschooler is hit so hard by some smells.
    Today, there’s an estimated 40,000 homeless people, living in campers, vans, cars, hidden encampments, or just on the street in the area with many of them employed. The absolute cost of living has crushed any increase in income that most Americans have gotten.
    It is great to have this hand sized computer on which I am typing my post. So? Somehow, I think having black&white TV coming through the antenna (don’t forget the eight stations!) real books, record players, and maybe TV dinners you heated in the oven would be a great trade-off for not living in a tent. The supposed cheap, or useful, services and devices don’t mean anything if the necessities life shelter can not be met.

  696. After all the slicing, dicing, puréeing, mixing and manipulation of the data my parents could rent an entire house with real yards, support a family, and go to college on about 1.5 minimum wage jobs. In Santa Clara County. It did help that the minimum wage was around $11 adjusted for inflation, college was mostly free, and there were still enough fruit orchards left that among my earliest memories is of the beautiful scents of all those trees blooming. It says something when a preschooler is hit so hard by some smells.
    Today, there’s an estimated 40,000 homeless people, living in campers, vans, cars, hidden encampments, or just on the street in the area with many of them employed. The absolute cost of living has crushed any increase in income that most Americans have gotten.
    It is great to have this hand sized computer on which I am typing my post. So? Somehow, I think having black&white TV coming through the antenna (don’t forget the eight stations!) real books, record players, and maybe TV dinners you heated in the oven would be a great trade-off for not living in a tent. The supposed cheap, or useful, services and devices don’t mean anything if the necessities life shelter can not be met.

  697. I realize it’s tempting to reason from personal experience. I succumb to the temptation myself from time to time.
    But seriously — Santa Clara County? I will be amazed if thete are a half dozen counties in the entire country which have experienced a bigger jump in the cost of living, especially housing, than the heart of Silicon Valley.

  698. I realize it’s tempting to reason from personal experience. I succumb to the temptation myself from time to time.
    But seriously — Santa Clara County? I will be amazed if thete are a half dozen counties in the entire country which have experienced a bigger jump in the cost of living, especially housing, than the heart of Silicon Valley.

  707. Somehow, I think having black&white TV coming through the antenna (don’t forget the eight stations!) real books, record players, and maybe TV dinners you heated in the oven would be a great trade-off for not living in a tent. The supposed cheap, or useful, services and devices don’t mean anything if the necessities life shelter can not be met.
    This strikes me as similar (or parallel) to the plaints of people who want the US to go back to some ‘golden age’ when all those things were operative. But two things to consider: How do you ask all those people who have grown to depend on those services just give them up and how the absence of those services led to other kinds of injustice and oppression. I’m not saying that having internet or everyone carrying a smartphone somehow magically makes those things disappear, but just turning the clock back doesn’t somehow make the things that we’ve discovered about our society disappear.
    In a sense, this is privilege talking, because one imagines themselves to be, in a return to ‘the good old days’, in the position to be happy with that level of goods and services. Perhaps it would be possible to turn back the clock and keep the social progress that has been made in terms of rights for women, people of color, LGBT, the handicapped. Yet the kind of progress that is generally lauded, that of entrepreneurial energy and technological advances, goes hand in hand with increased diversity. I don’t think it is possible to say that one causes the other, but I think it is possible to argue that you can’t have one without the other.

  708. Somehow, I think having black&white TV coming through the antenna (don’t forget the eight stations!) real books, record players, and maybe TV dinners you heated in the oven would be a great trade-off for not living in a tent. The supposed cheap, or useful, services and devices don’t mean anything if the necessities life shelter can not be met.
    This strikes me as similar (or parallel) to the plaints of people who want the US to go back to some ‘golden age’ when all those things were operative. But two things to consider: How do you ask all those people who have grown to depend on those services just give them up and how the absence of those services led to other kinds of injustice and oppression. I’m not saying that having internet or everyone carrying a smartphone somehow magically makes those things disappear, but just turning the clock back doesn’t somehow make the things that we’ve discovered about our society disappear.
    In a sense, this is privilege talking, because one imagines themselves to be, in a return to ‘the good old days’, in the position to be happy with that level of goods and services. Perhaps it would be possible to turn back the clock and keep the social progress that has been made in terms of rights for women, people of color, LGBT, the handicapped. Yet the kind of progress that is generally lauded, that of entrepreneurial energy and technological advances, goes hand in hand with increased diversity. I don’t think it is possible to say that one causes the other, but I think it is possible to argue that you can’t have one without the other.

  711. LJ, you have convinced me. We should keep all the technological inventions of the past several decades and the accompanying social progress. Black and white television, contrary to popular belief, is not the key to lowering the Gini coefficient.
    The first part of JBird’s post was about the plight of American families below the top ten percent or so. He was repeating what the Atlantic article said and also what Russell said. He then waxed nostalgic about his youth, giving you and wj the opening needed to miss the main point.

  712. LJ, you have convinced me. We should keep all the technological inventions of the past several decades and the accompanying social progress. Black and white television, contrary to popular belief, is not the key to lowering the Gini coefficient.
    The first part of JBird’s post was about the plight of American families below the top ten percent or so. He was repeating what the Atlantic article said and also what Russell said. He then waxed nostalgic about his youth, giving you and wj the opening needed to miss the main point.

  713. Looking back, also what JanieM said.
    I see that JBird was responding to Charles WT’s point. Conservatives commonly dismiss the issue of inequality by saying that poor people in America are richer by some quantitative measure than ordinary people in Mali or than people some decades back, but the issue is more complex than that. For one thing, humans inescapably compare themselves to the people around them. A poor person today is much better off in some material respects than a nobleman in the Middle Ages.
    If you have to work harder to have the fancy gadgets people see as necessities than people had to work 50 years ago to have a black and white TV with three or four channels, then you are arguably worse off. You can acknowledge the social progress made and the point that economic inequality has increased simultaneously.

  714. Looking back, also what JanieM said.
    I see that JBird was responding to Charles WT’s point. Conservatives commonly dismiss the issue of inequality by saying that poor people in America are richer by some quantitative measure than ordinary people in Mali or than people some decades back, but the issue is more complex than that. For one thing, humans inescapably compare themselves to the people around them. A poor person today is much better off in some material respects than a nobleman in the Middle Ages.
    If you have to work harder to have the fancy gadgets people see as necessities than people had to work 50 years ago to have a black and white TV with three or four channels, then you are arguably worse off. You can acknowledge the social progress made and the point that economic inequality has increased simultaneously.

  715. “A poor person today is much better off in some material respects than a nobleman in the Middle Ages.”
    I forgot to include the “ So what?” that would have completed my point.

  716. “A poor person today is much better off in some material respects than a nobleman in the Middle Ages.”
    I forgot to include the “ So what?” that would have completed my point.

  717. Donald, if you could restate the main point, I’d appreciate it. Bob McManus posted the Atlantic link, and I didn’t see any indication that jbird was talking about it. I admit that I didn’t follow his comments very closely, but I really don’t see him making any reference to the Atlantic article.
    At any rate, if you want to complain about the plight of American families and long for a return to the 50’s when things were better, you are, even if you realize it or not, also suggesting that things were better because women and minority knew their place.

  718. Donald, if you could restate the main point, I’d appreciate it. Bob McManus posted the Atlantic link, and I didn’t see any indication that jbird was talking about it. I admit that I didn’t follow his comments very closely, but I really don’t see him making any reference to the Atlantic article.
    At any rate, if you want to complain about the plight of American families and long for a return to the 50’s when things were better, you are, even if you realize it or not, also suggesting that things were better because women and minority knew their place.

  719. At any rate, if you want to complain about the plight of American families and long for a return to the 50’s when things were better, you are, even if you realize it or not, also suggesting that things were better because women and minority knew their place.
    lj, I don’t think that’s true at all.
    It’s entirely possible to wish for a return to relative economic equality (and to wax nostalgic about the fifties as a representative time) and for the preservation of the cultural progress we’ve made in civil rights and other areas.
    I wish for both those things every day before breakfast.
    And after breakfast, too.

  720. At any rate, if you want to complain about the plight of American families and long for a return to the 50’s when things were better, you are, even if you realize it or not, also suggesting that things were better because women and minority knew their place.
    lj, I don’t think that’s true at all.
    It’s entirely possible to wish for a return to relative economic equality (and to wax nostalgic about the fifties as a representative time) and for the preservation of the cultural progress we’ve made in civil rights and other areas.
    I wish for both those things every day before breakfast.
    And after breakfast, too.

  721. Also, I don’t think Donald meant that jbird literally cited the Atlantic link. I took him to mean that jbird was making a similar point as the Atlantic article, and as russell, and as yvt.

  722. Also, I don’t think Donald meant that jbird literally cited the Atlantic link. I took him to mean that jbird was making a similar point as the Atlantic article, and as russell, and as yvt.

  723. My first comment was in response to Donald’s first in which he seems to know jbird’s main point was. I read the Atlantic article and I really don’t see much relationship to what jbird has posted, but as I said, I haven’t followed him too closely.
    To try and address the whole question of economic progress, it seems that the kind of society we have, where economic hotspots can emerge and concentrate, you are going to have these kinds of problems and the only way to stop them is to find ways to restrict people’s movement or choice in some manner. Rent control, zoning, etc. But those kinds of schemes are susceptible to gaming by the 10%, so you need a relatively robust committment to social justice, which doesn’t really obtain in the US. But the problem isn’t the inequality, it is the lack of social justice.
    Any population that does not have power can be exploited. This recent article in the Guardian about Australia suggests this.
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/21/death-in-the-sun-australias-88-day-law-leaves-backpackers-exploited-and-exposed
    Certainly, the problem would disappear if Australia would go back to the 50’s when there wasn’t agricultural industry that has developed. To quote Donald, so what? Making an industry disappear is not really an option, so waxing nostalgic for one’s past and then suggesting that things would be better is really just a value signaling rather than an acknowledgement of the power issues that are the cause.
    This is not to complain about waxing nostalgic, almost everything I write is generally based on some inchoate longing for the past. But that is all it is, longing. It doesn’t represent an approach to dealing with inequality or power differentials, and when it is juxtaposed on jbird’s ‘both sides are equally guilty’, it not only seems a lot more than simply wishing he was a preschooler breathing in the scents of the orchards, it carries the possibility being hijacked precisely by someone like Trump.

  724. My first comment was in response to Donald’s first in which he seems to know jbird’s main point was. I read the Atlantic article and I really don’t see much relationship to what jbird has posted, but as I said, I haven’t followed him too closely.
    To try and address the whole question of economic progress, it seems that the kind of society we have, where economic hotspots can emerge and concentrate, you are going to have these kinds of problems and the only way to stop them is to find ways to restrict people’s movement or choice in some manner. Rent control, zoning, etc. But those kinds of schemes are susceptible to gaming by the 10%, so you need a relatively robust committment to social justice, which doesn’t really obtain in the US. But the problem isn’t the inequality, it is the lack of social justice.
    Any population that does not have power can be exploited. This recent article in the Guardian about Australia suggests this.
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/21/death-in-the-sun-australias-88-day-law-leaves-backpackers-exploited-and-exposed
    Certainly, the problem would disappear if Australia would go back to the 50’s when there wasn’t agricultural industry that has developed. To quote Donald, so what? Making an industry disappear is not really an option, so waxing nostalgic for one’s past and then suggesting that things would be better is really just a value signaling rather than an acknowledgement of the power issues that are the cause.
    This is not to complain about waxing nostalgic, almost everything I write is generally based on some inchoate longing for the past. But that is all it is, longing. It doesn’t represent an approach to dealing with inequality or power differentials, and when it is juxtaposed on jbird’s ‘both sides are equally guilty’, it not only seems a lot more than simply wishing he was a preschooler breathing in the scents of the orchards, it carries the possibility being hijacked precisely by someone like Trump.

  725. If cellphones suddenly disappeared and TV turned b/w again, the impact would be limited. Same with our portable music playing devices (tape would do as well and we could do even without that).
    But the internet has by now become essential, losing it would mean major changes to society (and I do not mean coping with the loss of cat and prawn* videos).
    It could be argued that the internet is the one fundamental thing dividing us from the 50ies as a point of no return. It also played an important part in social progress. I doubt that gay marriage (or a black president***) would have happened without it.
    *you know what nsfw** word I mean
    **not Nationalsozialistische Feuerwehr
    ***unfortunately it also made the current POS-OTUS possible.

  726. If cellphones suddenly disappeared and TV turned b/w again, the impact would be limited. Same with our portable music playing devices (tape would do as well and we could do even without that).
    But the internet has by now become essential, losing it would mean major changes to society (and I do not mean coping with the loss of cat and prawn* videos).
    It could be argued that the internet is the one fundamental thing dividing us from the 50ies as a point of no return. It also played an important part in social progress. I doubt that gay marriage (or a black president***) would have happened without it.
    *you know what nsfw** word I mean
    **not Nationalsozialistische Feuerwehr
    ***unfortunately it also made the current POS-OTUS possible.

  727. As for “waxing nostalgic,” I plunged into this conversation because of wj’s However my perception is that, over time, the country as a whole has been moving to what would previously have been considered the left, which was, IIRC, a response to something Donald wrote.
    If we’re going to talk about which direction the country has moved, we’re inevitably going to be making comparisons between the past and now. wj thinks we’ve moved “left,” full stop. I think we’ve moved “left” culturally and socially (all to the good), and “right” economically (in a very bad way). That has nothing to do with waxing nostalgic.
    Also, I disagree strongly with this: But the problem isn’t the inequality, it is the lack of social justice..
    They’re both a problem. Solving one is *not* guaranteed to solve the other. Not that they’re not intertwined.

  728. As for “waxing nostalgic,” I plunged into this conversation because of wj’s However my perception is that, over time, the country as a whole has been moving to what would previously have been considered the left, which was, IIRC, a response to something Donald wrote.
    If we’re going to talk about which direction the country has moved, we’re inevitably going to be making comparisons between the past and now. wj thinks we’ve moved “left,” full stop. I think we’ve moved “left” culturally and socially (all to the good), and “right” economically (in a very bad way). That has nothing to do with waxing nostalgic.
    Also, I disagree strongly with this: But the problem isn’t the inequality, it is the lack of social justice..
    They’re both a problem. Solving one is *not* guaranteed to solve the other. Not that they’re not intertwined.

  729. If we want to recapture the economic equality of the 1950’s, we need to raise taxes and provide government services. These are policies that Democrats have been putting forward since the 1950’s. Democrats haven’t been getting elected consistently because people became convinced (by Ronald Reagan) that government is the problem, and even “lefties” bought into the “technocrat” anti-data, anti-wonk view that policy matters less than rhetoric..
    Are Democrats perfect? No. Have they tried work-arounds, using rhetoric they thought would appeal to Republicans in order to get elected? Yes. But the numbers show that their administrations have made things better each time. Going one step forward during Democratic administrations, and then two steps back during Republican administrations doesn’t work out very well in the long run though.
    The lesson here is quit letting Republicans get elected. They poison government, not only while they’re in office, but by doing long-term damage to the judiciary.
    This shouldn’t be hard. The difficult part is unifying that 90% of the people to vote for their own interests. I have some sympathy for people who understand this; but I’ve lost interest in listening to people who cut off their nose to spite their face by enabling the election of Trump.
    But the problem isn’t the inequality, it is the lack of social justice.
    This. As long as a significant part of our population can favor policies based on hate, including separating parents from children at the borders, and indefinitely incarcerating people; as long as significant numbers of people can buy into the corruption of Trump, there will be no effort to address inequality.

  730. If we want to recapture the economic equality of the 1950’s, we need to raise taxes and provide government services. These are policies that Democrats have been putting forward since the 1950’s. Democrats haven’t been getting elected consistently because people became convinced (by Ronald Reagan) that government is the problem, and even “lefties” bought into the “technocrat” anti-data, anti-wonk view that policy matters less than rhetoric..
    Are Democrats perfect? No. Have they tried work-arounds, using rhetoric they thought would appeal to Republicans in order to get elected? Yes. But the numbers show that their administrations have made things better each time. Going one step forward during Democratic administrations, and then two steps back during Republican administrations doesn’t work out very well in the long run though.
    The lesson here is quit letting Republicans get elected. They poison government, not only while they’re in office, but by doing long-term damage to the judiciary.
    This shouldn’t be hard. The difficult part is unifying that 90% of the people to vote for their own interests. I have some sympathy for people who understand this; but I’ve lost interest in listening to people who cut off their nose to spite their face by enabling the election of Trump.
    But the problem isn’t the inequality, it is the lack of social justice.
    This. As long as a significant part of our population can favor policies based on hate, including separating parents from children at the borders, and indefinitely incarcerating people; as long as significant numbers of people can buy into the corruption of Trump, there will be no effort to address inequality.

  731. If cellphones suddenly disappeared…the impact would be limited.
    Perhaps in the US and Europe though I think you’re way underestimating the impact cell phones have had,
    But, in much of the world, cell phones are people’s first and perhaps only connection to the Internet. Also, in countries where large portions of the populations are bankless, the ability to transfer funds using the phones enables livelihoods that would not otherwise exist.

  732. If cellphones suddenly disappeared…the impact would be limited.
    Perhaps in the US and Europe though I think you’re way underestimating the impact cell phones have had,
    But, in much of the world, cell phones are people’s first and perhaps only connection to the Internet. Also, in countries where large portions of the populations are bankless, the ability to transfer funds using the phones enables livelihoods that would not otherwise exist.

  733. lj: But the problem isn’t the inequality, it is the lack of social justice..
    me: They’re both a problem. Solving one is *not* guaranteed to solve the other. Not that they’re not intertwined.
    I take it back, partly. I objected and still object to the characterization of “the” problem, as if there’s only one. But depending on what you mean by “social justice,” inequality *is* social injustice. I was thinking more of race-based discrimination, LGBT issues, etc., which is a different way of slicing the conceptual cake, IMHO.

  734. lj: But the problem isn’t the inequality, it is the lack of social justice..
    me: They’re both a problem. Solving one is *not* guaranteed to solve the other. Not that they’re not intertwined.
    I take it back, partly. I objected and still object to the characterization of “the” problem, as if there’s only one. But depending on what you mean by “social justice,” inequality *is* social injustice. I was thinking more of race-based discrimination, LGBT issues, etc., which is a different way of slicing the conceptual cake, IMHO.

  735. I left off economic, which may account for this. I don’t think _economic_ inequality is a problem if the population has what they need, though it could have an aspect of panem et circenses.
    Perhaps I’m just thinking that creating an America society where there is more equality would be a lot harder than creating a society where there is more social justice. I realize that they are intertwined, but the discussion here seems to lean towards the idea solving economic inequality solves social justice issues. I feel that this may be wrong, in that policies that improve the economic lot of visible minorities may actually encourage and justify oppression.
    I’m reminded of something that I can’t find that Eric Garner and Uber (I think) were essentially doing the same thing, but the latter is lauded as ‘disruptors’ while Garner is choked to death. Likewise, Coates writing about reparations and how they essentially have placed African Americans in a position where they are always starting with less. These seem to be issues beyond questions of economic inequality.
    Furthermore, social justice issues boil down to the idea that people have rights that are permanent, like monads. Questions of economic equality end up devolving into arguing how much things are worth to different people and are too easily exploited for effect.

  736. I left off economic, which may account for this. I don’t think _economic_ inequality is a problem if the population has what they need, though it could have an aspect of panem et circenses.
    Perhaps I’m just thinking that creating an America society where there is more equality would be a lot harder than creating a society where there is more social justice. I realize that they are intertwined, but the discussion here seems to lean towards the idea solving economic inequality solves social justice issues. I feel that this may be wrong, in that policies that improve the economic lot of visible minorities may actually encourage and justify oppression.
    I’m reminded of something that I can’t find that Eric Garner and Uber (I think) were essentially doing the same thing, but the latter is lauded as ‘disruptors’ while Garner is choked to death. Likewise, Coates writing about reparations and how they essentially have placed African Americans in a position where they are always starting with less. These seem to be issues beyond questions of economic inequality.
    Furthermore, social justice issues boil down to the idea that people have rights that are permanent, like monads. Questions of economic equality end up devolving into arguing how much things are worth to different people and are too easily exploited for effect.

  737. Just finished Class Matters by Steve Fraser. Not as good as the previous book, Age of Acquiescence, which has a great section on the Knights of Labor strikes in the 1870s, but very very readable. Chapters include Plymouth to Ellis Island to MLK. Great on race, not so great on gender, trying to being back class into discussions.
    Fraser is an old crank, teaches labor history at Columbia(?), almost lost his cherry in an empty field in Miss during Freedom Summer, got arrested for having C4 in his refrigerator in 1969.
    For the most part, I’m gonna let the kids figure out the new intersectionality configurations, since we old cranks don’t understand the workplace anymore. Job of us olds talking to each other is to get us to shut up, point at books, and get out of the way.

  738. Just finished Class Matters by Steve Fraser. Not as good as the previous book, Age of Acquiescence, which has a great section on the Knights of Labor strikes in the 1870s, but very very readable. Chapters include Plymouth to Ellis Island to MLK. Great on race, not so great on gender, trying to being back class into discussions.
    Fraser is an old crank, teaches labor history at Columbia(?), almost lost his cherry in an empty field in Miss during Freedom Summer, got arrested for having C4 in his refrigerator in 1969.
    For the most part, I’m gonna let the kids figure out the new intersectionality configurations, since we old cranks don’t understand the workplace anymore. Job of us olds talking to each other is to get us to shut up, point at books, and get out of the way.

  739. Questions of economic equality end up devolving into arguing how much things are worth to different people and are too easily exploited for effect.
    When economic equality (forget “questions of”) reaches sufficiently high levels, violent revolution is often the result (or at least has been historically).
    Don’t let the argument devolve. Don’t let it be exploited for effect. Make better arguments.
    I think you underestimate how much issues of social justice and economic inequality are intertwined, lj. I tend to think it’s almost impossible to solve the two problems independently.
    Economic power is political power. Oppression is achieved largely by economic means.

  740. Questions of economic equality end up devolving into arguing how much things are worth to different people and are too easily exploited for effect.
    When economic equality (forget “questions of”) reaches sufficiently high levels, violent revolution is often the result (or at least has been historically).
    Don’t let the argument devolve. Don’t let it be exploited for effect. Make better arguments.
    I think you underestimate how much issues of social justice and economic inequality are intertwined, lj. I tend to think it’s almost impossible to solve the two problems independently.
    Economic power is political power. Oppression is achieved largely by economic means.

  741. But the problem isn’t the inequality, it is the lack of social justice.
    Inequality per se – the fact that some people have more money and more stuff than other people – is, all other things excluded, neither here nor there. Especially if the folks who have less money and stuff have enough money and stuff to live decent lives.
    Beyond a certain point, money per se actually isn’t that important.
    However.
    All other things are not excluded. We don’t live in a socially cohesive country. We have no consistent or commonly-held sense of mutual obligation or responsibility.
    Quite a lot of us resent being asked to help other people. Wealth is seen as the reward for a variety of kinds of personal virtue. People who don’t have it, could have it if they simply changed their personal habits. Asking people with money to send some of that to people who have less money is, in that context, almost a violation of some kind of natural law.
    I’m not just talking about welfare, I’m talking about, for instance, paying working people more. A $15 standard for an hourly wage is seen as a threat to the freaking republic. Not on pragmatic grounds, but as a matter of principle.
    In the world we actually live in, inequality and social injustice cannot be teased apart.
    Wealthy people have more resources, and they use those resources not just to have lovely vegetables and nice cars, but to further their own interests and preferences. Concerning 10 million things. All of which impact the lives, and the quality of life, of everyone else.
    You can’t separate them. Not in the real world.

  742. But the problem isn’t the inequality, it is the lack of social justice.
    Inequality per se – the fact that some people have more money and more stuff than other people – is, all other things excluded, neither here nor there. Especially if the folks who have less money and stuff have enough money and stuff to live decent lives.
    Beyond a certain point, money per se actually isn’t that important.
    However.
    All other things are not excluded. We don’t live in a socially cohesive country. We have no consistent or commonly-held sense of mutual obligation or responsibility.
    Quite a lot of us resent being asked to help other people. Wealth is seen as the reward for a variety of kinds of personal virtue. People who don’t have it, could have it if they simply changed their personal habits. Asking people with money to send some of that to people who have less money is, in that context, almost a violation of some kind of natural law.
    I’m not just talking about welfare, I’m talking about, for instance, paying working people more. A $15 standard for an hourly wage is seen as a threat to the freaking republic. Not on pragmatic grounds, but as a matter of principle.
    In the world we actually live in, inequality and social injustice cannot be teased apart.
    Wealthy people have more resources, and they use those resources not just to have lovely vegetables and nice cars, but to further their own interests and preferences. Concerning 10 million things. All of which impact the lives, and the quality of life, of everyone else.
    You can’t separate them. Not in the real world.

  743. “Job of us olds talking to each other is to get us to shut up, point at books, and get out of the way.”
    Yup, that’s about all she wrote.
    WE are the ones who need to get off the lawn, sippy cups and all.
    As I wrote “all she wrote”, it occurred to me to wonder why that phrase is not “all HE wrote”, given that it’s been around for eons and probably would have been subject to the prevailing male dominance.
    Who is “SHE”, and what did she write in the original instance.
    Welp, wouldn’t ya know:
    http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-tha1.htm
    Turns out, maybe, that machine gun nests taken out by 19-year old American soldiers, and live grenades leapt upon by the same contingent of lads on both battle fronts in World War II were the live-action results of broken male hearts, the latter shattered by Dear John letters from the main squeezes on the home front.
    I guess it beats the pitiful Incel cultist drama queens driving into crowds of people in Toronto or targeting young girls who might have snubbed prom invitations in schools across the country.
    Soldier #1: I’m going over the hill alone and taking out that big gun emplacement. Tell Becky I loves her.
    Soldier #2: Hold on, we have air support dialed in. Whaddaya, crazy?
    Soldier #1: There’s plum nothing to go back too, anymore. Best to go out a hero.
    Soldier #2: Get a holt of yerself, kid. You have your whole life in front of you.
    Soldier #1: I’m tellin ya, that’s all she wrote!
    Geronimo!!
    Now THAT’S what you call a marketplace that plays for keeps.
    I hope conservatives don’t mind if the next time a young American battle hero gets in the way of incoming that the operative phrase becomes “That’s all they wrote!”.
    https://uwm.edu/lgbtrc/support/gender-pronouns/
    Whaddya gonna do, court martial someone?

  744. “Job of us olds talking to each other is to get us to shut up, point at books, and get out of the way.”
    Yup, that’s about all she wrote.
    WE are the ones who need to get off the lawn, sippy cups and all.
    As I wrote “all she wrote”, it occurred to me to wonder why that phrase is not “all HE wrote”, given that it’s been around for eons and probably would have been subject to the prevailing male dominance.
    Who is “SHE”, and what did she write in the original instance.
    Welp, wouldn’t ya know:
    http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-tha1.htm
    Turns out, maybe, that machine gun nests taken out by 19-year old American soldiers, and live grenades leapt upon by the same contingent of lads on both battle fronts in World War II were the live-action results of broken male hearts, the latter shattered by Dear John letters from the main squeezes on the home front.
    I guess it beats the pitiful Incel cultist drama queens driving into crowds of people in Toronto or targeting young girls who might have snubbed prom invitations in schools across the country.
    Soldier #1: I’m going over the hill alone and taking out that big gun emplacement. Tell Becky I loves her.
    Soldier #2: Hold on, we have air support dialed in. Whaddaya, crazy?
    Soldier #1: There’s plum nothing to go back too, anymore. Best to go out a hero.
    Soldier #2: Get a holt of yerself, kid. You have your whole life in front of you.
    Soldier #1: I’m tellin ya, that’s all she wrote!
    Geronimo!!
    Now THAT’S what you call a marketplace that plays for keeps.
    I hope conservatives don’t mind if the next time a young American battle hero gets in the way of incoming that the operative phrase becomes “That’s all they wrote!”.
    https://uwm.edu/lgbtrc/support/gender-pronouns/
    Whaddya gonna do, court martial someone?

  745. two things to consider: How do you ask all those people who have grown to depend on those services just give them up and how the absence of those services led to other kinds of injustice and oppression
    Not to mention How do you recreate the businesses which provided stuff that is now dealt with via the Internet? The buildings are no longer available. The staff is doing other jobs (or retired and not interested). The mere expertise to do a lot of those jobs has died off in a lot of cases.
    It could be done. But nothing like quickly and easily.

  746. two things to consider: How do you ask all those people who have grown to depend on those services just give them up and how the absence of those services led to other kinds of injustice and oppression
    Not to mention How do you recreate the businesses which provided stuff that is now dealt with via the Internet? The buildings are no longer available. The staff is doing other jobs (or retired and not interested). The mere expertise to do a lot of those jobs has died off in a lot of cases.
    It could be done. But nothing like quickly and easily.

  749. wj thinks we’ve moved “left,” full stop. I think we’ve moved “left” culturally and socially (all to the good), and “right” economically (in a very bad way).
    I would indeed say that we have moved to the left culturally and socially. But economically the record is . . . mixed. Certainly we have lost ground when it comes to income/wealth inequality, although I’m not sure I agree that this is a goal of the right. (A result, perhaps, of the way that we have achieved other goals.) I’d say rather that it is a goal of libertarians, rather than of conservatives.
    I’m drafting up a post on my take on the subject. Hopefully to post later today. Long story short, MY goal would be
    1) equality of opportunity,
    2) NOT equality of outcomes
    3) adequate support for those who are struggling, funded by money from those who have been most successful.

  750. wj thinks we’ve moved “left,” full stop. I think we’ve moved “left” culturally and socially (all to the good), and “right” economically (in a very bad way).
    I would indeed say that we have moved to the left culturally and socially. But economically the record is . . . mixed. Certainly we have lost ground when it comes to income/wealth inequality, although I’m not sure I agree that this is a goal of the right. (A result, perhaps, of the way that we have achieved other goals.) I’d say rather that it is a goal of libertarians, rather than of conservatives.
    I’m drafting up a post on my take on the subject. Hopefully to post later today. Long story short, MY goal would be
    1) equality of opportunity,
    2) NOT equality of outcomes
    3) adequate support for those who are struggling, funded by money from those who have been most successful.

  753. Economic power is political power.
    It is. But it have to be?
    Suppose we got rid of the nonsense of Citizens United. And then provided campaign funding from strictly public sources. (You could spend all you want to promote Ideas. As long as you are not running for office.)
    Oh yeah, and we’d need to extend the bribery laws to include a prohibition of some kind on working for lobbying/advocacy organizations for some time (a decade?) after leaving office.
    But if we did those things, would economic power still translate straightforwardly to political power?

  754. Economic power is political power.
    It is. But it have to be?
    Suppose we got rid of the nonsense of Citizens United. And then provided campaign funding from strictly public sources. (You could spend all you want to promote Ideas. As long as you are not running for office.)
    Oh yeah, and we’d need to extend the bribery laws to include a prohibition of some kind on working for lobbying/advocacy organizations for some time (a decade?) after leaving office.
    But if we did those things, would economic power still translate straightforwardly to political power?

  755. But if we did those things, would economic power still translate straightforwardly to political power?
    Yes.

  756. But if we did those things, would economic power still translate straightforwardly to political power?
    Yes.

  759. But if we did those things
    Doing those things is a big lift. Even setting the conditions for doing those things is a big lift.
    You’re talking about probably a couple of generations of sustained effort.
    And even then, economic power is still going to be political power, it just might be less tilted in one direction.
    Power is power. Justice that is based on charity, or noblesse oblige, is at best extraordinarily fragile.
    If you actually want a political and social level playing field, you are going to have to address economic inequality as it is currently expressed in the US.
    I’m not talking about leveling, I’m talking about addressing the situation where so many people are struggling in the first place.
    Not re-distribution. Distribution. Stakeholder status, and stakeholder renumeration, needs to extend to include, not just more people, but most people.
    People who work need to be paid.
    But two things to consider
    I’d like to challenge the idea that widespread availability of cheap consumer goods is a measure of a robust economy. Ditto cheap consumer electronics.
    Economic robustness is not about cheap stuff at Walmart. It’s about not facing bankruptcy or loss of your home if you are out of work for a couple of months, or if you get sick. It’s about having access to training or education that enables you to participate in the economy at a level beyond being a human droid. It’s about investing in infrastructure and research and industrial policy that sets the stage for the next generation or two of growth and economic health.
    Cheap stuff is great. Not spending your life in fear of economic disaster, even better.

  760. But if we did those things
    Doing those things is a big lift. Even setting the conditions for doing those things is a big lift.
    You’re talking about probably a couple of generations of sustained effort.
    And even then, economic power is still going to be political power, it just might be less tilted in one direction.
    Power is power. Justice that is based on charity, or noblesse oblige, is at best extraordinarily fragile.
    If you actually want a political and social level playing field, you are going to have to address economic inequality as it is currently expressed in the US.
    I’m not talking about leveling, I’m talking about addressing the situation where so many people are struggling in the first place.
    Not re-distribution. Distribution. Stakeholder status, and stakeholder renumeration, needs to extend to include, not just more people, but most people.
    People who work need to be paid.
    But two things to consider
    I’d like to challenge the idea that widespread availability of cheap consumer goods is a measure of a robust economy. Ditto cheap consumer electronics.
    Economic robustness is not about cheap stuff at Walmart. It’s about not facing bankruptcy or loss of your home if you are out of work for a couple of months, or if you get sick. It’s about having access to training or education that enables you to participate in the economy at a level beyond being a human droid. It’s about investing in infrastructure and research and industrial policy that sets the stage for the next generation or two of growth and economic health.
    Cheap stuff is great. Not spending your life in fear of economic disaster, even better.

  761. NOT equality of outcomes
    If you select rich parents, the chances that you will die rich are pretty good. Similarly, if you selected poor parents, you most likely will die poor.
    This strikes me as a rather pertinent observation regarding “equality of opportunity”.
    Job of us olds talking to each other is to get us to shut up, point at books, and get out of the way.
    I hear you, brother. Fortunately, the iron laws of biology will take care of this….automatically.

  762. NOT equality of outcomes
    If you select rich parents, the chances that you will die rich are pretty good. Similarly, if you selected poor parents, you most likely will die poor.
    This strikes me as a rather pertinent observation regarding “equality of opportunity”.
    Job of us olds talking to each other is to get us to shut up, point at books, and get out of the way.
    I hear you, brother. Fortunately, the iron laws of biology will take care of this….automatically.

  763. If you select rich parents, the chances that you will die rich are pretty good. Similarly, if you selected poor parents, you most likely will die poor.
    This strikes me as a rather pertinent observation regarding “equality of opportunity”.
    And there are two things you need to do to overcome them:
    – You provide adequate funding for public education. Thru college. That’s a step towards true equality of opportunity.
    – You put substantial taxes on inheritances. (Above some threshold, of course, but nobody “needs” to get $1 million plus, basically tax free, in return for a deft selection of parents.)

  764. If you select rich parents, the chances that you will die rich are pretty good. Similarly, if you selected poor parents, you most likely will die poor.
    This strikes me as a rather pertinent observation regarding “equality of opportunity”.
    And there are two things you need to do to overcome them:
    – You provide adequate funding for public education. Thru college. That’s a step towards true equality of opportunity.
    – You put substantial taxes on inheritances. (Above some threshold, of course, but nobody “needs” to get $1 million plus, basically tax free, in return for a deft selection of parents.)

  765. Since it’s an Open Thread, I feel compelled to share this. There is an immigration bill, the ENLIST Act, which has as cosponsors, over half of the members of the House . . . which still hasn’t been brought to a vote by the GOP “leadership”. Makes it clear why a discharge petition on immigration bills is on the verge of happening.

  766. Since it’s an Open Thread, I feel compelled to share this. There is an immigration bill, the ENLIST Act, which has as cosponsors, over half of the members of the House . . . which still hasn’t been brought to a vote by the GOP “leadership”. Makes it clear why a discharge petition on immigration bills is on the verge of happening.

  769. And there are two things you need to do to overcome them:
    Those are fine, but you have missed perhaps the most important one: Reallocation of the distribution of actually existing political and economic power…start by repealing the Taft-Hartley Act to take just one example.

  770. And there are two things you need to do to overcome them:
    Those are fine, but you have missed perhaps the most important one: Reallocation of the distribution of actually existing political and economic power…start by repealing the Taft-Hartley Act to take just one example.

  771. Cheap stuff is great. Not spending your life in fear of economic disaster, even better.
    This is what I have been trying to say. It does not matter what wondrous technology, fantastic medicines, exciting new industries, or even what your civil rights are, if you cannot support yourself, or worse, your family. Without having food, clothing, and shelter, nothing else matters at all. There are a large number of LGBT people living in San Francisco on the damn streets, or always facing that possibility. What do you think their daily concerns are? You can tell some white person that all things being equal it is better being white than black. Would you say that to some homeless man or in the large areas that are economic waste zones? “You are privileged you are straight, white, male!” Saying that to someone who has no job, or who can’t send his kids to school, or even buy them shoes, is going to go over real well. It is common for many employed people in Blue areas to have the same problems are poor people in Red areas. They will have more money, sure, but the cost of living is so much higher.
    The “greed is good” economics along with the general belief in low taxes, decreased regulations, and reduced social services is a part of both Parties; the differences between the parties are that the Democrats are less extreme and do expect government to work, while the Republicans want to eliminate everything and do want the government to fail.
    Both Parties have also used often social issues like abortion, guns, marriage, blacks, gays, immigration, and so on as tool to distract, demonize, separate, and control their chosen bases while creating the economic and crises that we now have. Neither Party is truly left or right on social issues albeit compared to each other they are, and both are economically pro big business, pro-wealth.

  772. Cheap stuff is great. Not spending your life in fear of economic disaster, even better.
    This is what I have been trying to say. It does not matter what wondrous technology, fantastic medicines, exciting new industries, or even what your civil rights are, if you cannot support yourself, or worse, your family. Without having food, clothing, and shelter, nothing else matters at all. There are a large number of LGBT people living in San Francisco on the damn streets, or always facing that possibility. What do you think their daily concerns are? You can tell some white person that all things being equal it is better being white than black. Would you say that to some homeless man or in the large areas that are economic waste zones? “You are privileged you are straight, white, male!” Saying that to someone who has no job, or who can’t send his kids to school, or even buy them shoes, is going to go over real well. It is common for many employed people in Blue areas to have the same problems are poor people in Red areas. They will have more money, sure, but the cost of living is so much higher.
    The “greed is good” economics along with the general belief in low taxes, decreased regulations, and reduced social services is a part of both Parties; the differences between the parties are that the Democrats are less extreme and do expect government to work, while the Republicans want to eliminate everything and do want the government to fail.
    Both Parties have also used often social issues like abortion, guns, marriage, blacks, gays, immigration, and so on as tool to distract, demonize, separate, and control their chosen bases while creating the economic and crises that we now have. Neither Party is truly left or right on social issues albeit compared to each other they are, and both are economically pro big business, pro-wealth.

  773. There are a large number of LGBT people living in San Francisco on the damn streets, or always facing that possibility.
    There’s a reason San Francisco is one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in. And it’s not because property owners and real estate developers are deliberately limiting housing to keep least/sale prices up.

  774. There are a large number of LGBT people living in San Francisco on the damn streets, or always facing that possibility.
    There’s a reason San Francisco is one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in. And it’s not because property owners and real estate developers are deliberately limiting housing to keep least/sale prices up.

  777. “You are privileged you are straight, white, male!”
    nobody says that. that’s not what “privileged” means in the context of “white [or male] privilege”.

  778. “You are privileged you are straight, white, male!”
    nobody says that. that’s not what “privileged” means in the context of “white [or male] privilege”.

  779. “You are privileged you are straight, white, male!”
    I’m hoping that Donald can hop back in and tell me what he thinks jbird’s main point is.

  780. “You are privileged you are straight, white, male!”
    I’m hoping that Donald can hop back in and tell me what he thinks jbird’s main point is.

  781. – You put substantial taxes on inheritances. (Above some threshold, of course, but nobody “needs” to get $1 million plus, basically tax free, in return for a deft selection of parents.)
    You believe this, and you call yourself a Republican?!?!?!?

  782. – You put substantial taxes on inheritances. (Above some threshold, of course, but nobody “needs” to get $1 million plus, basically tax free, in return for a deft selection of parents.)
    You believe this, and you call yourself a Republican?!?!?!?

  783. You believe this, and you call yourself a Republican?!?!?!?
    I don’t expect he will man the barricades, but maybe he will knit us some good head gear. /:)

  784. You believe this, and you call yourself a Republican?!?!?!?
    I don’t expect he will man the barricades, but maybe he will knit us some good head gear. /:)

  785. You believe this, and you call yourself a Republican?!?!?!?
    Yup. One who believes that people should get ahead based on their own efforts and contributions. Not based on who they chanced to get for parents.
    Surely I am not the only one who has noticed the bit of cognitive dissonance that denounces those who accept support from the government, because they haven’t “earned” it. Yet have no problem with those who accept analogous unearned support from their parents (or grandparents, etc.). If unearned is the problem in one case, why not in the other?

  786. You believe this, and you call yourself a Republican?!?!?!?
    Yup. One who believes that people should get ahead based on their own efforts and contributions. Not based on who they chanced to get for parents.
    Surely I am not the only one who has noticed the bit of cognitive dissonance that denounces those who accept support from the government, because they haven’t “earned” it. Yet have no problem with those who accept analogous unearned support from their parents (or grandparents, etc.). If unearned is the problem in one case, why not in the other?

  787. I’m hoping that Donald can hop back in and tell me what he thinks jbird’s main point is.
    JBird’s main point is that he obviously can’t write.
    I meant to say:
    “You are privileged because you are a straight white male.”
    I also should have added:
    “Therefore you cannot complain about how badly off you are.”

  788. I’m hoping that Donald can hop back in and tell me what he thinks jbird’s main point is.
    JBird’s main point is that he obviously can’t write.
    I meant to say:
    “You are privileged because you are a straight white male.”
    I also should have added:
    “Therefore you cannot complain about how badly off you are.”

  789. If unearned is the problem in one case, why not in the other?
    Well, certain denizens of this blog, never mind a lot of other people, would say that your idea interferes with people’s God-given right to get as much of the world’s collective wealth as they can under their own control, and then never be challenged as to whether they have the God-given right to decide what to do with it forever after.
    I agree with you rather than with them, but who are we among so many? (To quote a phrase.)

  790. If unearned is the problem in one case, why not in the other?
    Well, certain denizens of this blog, never mind a lot of other people, would say that your idea interferes with people’s God-given right to get as much of the world’s collective wealth as they can under their own control, and then never be challenged as to whether they have the God-given right to decide what to do with it forever after.
    I agree with you rather than with them, but who are we among so many? (To quote a phrase.)

  791. Well, certain denizens of this blog, never mind a lot of other people, would say that your idea interferes with people’s God-given right to get as much of the world’s collective wealth as they can under their own control, and then never be challenged as to whether they have the God-given right to decide what to do with it forever after.
    Who are you talking about? Sometimes it’s important to name names.

  792. Well, certain denizens of this blog, never mind a lot of other people, would say that your idea interferes with people’s God-given right to get as much of the world’s collective wealth as they can under their own control, and then never be challenged as to whether they have the God-given right to decide what to do with it forever after.
    Who are you talking about? Sometimes it’s important to name names.

  795. Without having food, clothing, and shelter, nothing else matters at all.
    i take your point here, but i would say that not living in fear of the police, and/or not living in fear of physical assault, are right up there with food, clothes, and shelter.
    Therefore you cannot complain about how badly off you are.
    one of my oldest friends is a straight, white male, who is trying to sell his car so he can make a $400/month rent on a single room rental.
    he has no bottom teeth anymore because HE IS FREAKING POOR and has no insurance, but he’s able bodied and doesn’t have kids and so doesn’t qualify for public resources to address that.
    and, he works. gig economy, y’all.
    privilege is certainly a thing, but it only goes so far.
    I don’t expect he will man the barricades
    hey, you never know!
    in any case, headgear is ok with me.

  796. Without having food, clothing, and shelter, nothing else matters at all.
    i take your point here, but i would say that not living in fear of the police, and/or not living in fear of physical assault, are right up there with food, clothes, and shelter.
    Therefore you cannot complain about how badly off you are.
    one of my oldest friends is a straight, white male, who is trying to sell his car so he can make a $400/month rent on a single room rental.
    he has no bottom teeth anymore because HE IS FREAKING POOR and has no insurance, but he’s able bodied and doesn’t have kids and so doesn’t qualify for public resources to address that.
    and, he works. gig economy, y’all.
    privilege is certainly a thing, but it only goes so far.
    I don’t expect he will man the barricades
    hey, you never know!
    in any case, headgear is ok with me.

  797. privilege is certainly a thing, but it only goes so far
    I realize this is just a turn of phrase by Russell, but I feel that one of the problems we have when we deal with privilege is that we treat it as a ‘thing’ that people have or don’t have. This is all of a piece of how Western society is able to commodify anything, but in this case, it really obscures what privilege is. As soon as we start thinking of privilege as something held by people rather than seeing it as built in to the relationships and implications from those relationships, it becomes something that we have to try and grab onto and throw out and leads to people getting all bent out of shape when it is pointed out that they somehow ‘have’ privilege. I’ve been turning over different ways to conceptualize it, from military rank or some sort of D&D force multiplier. But thinking of it as something that can be tallied up and measured, has us misunderstand it.
    I have a similar complaint about the concept of microaggressions, because aggression implies some person is actually ‘aggressing’. Yet microaggressions often come about because the person is simply unaware, but the reason we call is an ‘aggression’ is that we have to conceptualize it as an attack in order to make it into unacceptable behavior. Certainly, if we treated microaggressions as something like rain, it puts the onus on people on the receiving end to protect themselves, which is not right. But if we imply an idea that people are causing this, as I think the term aggression does, we have a hard time making people realize what is actually happening.
    This is not to suggest that Russell is thinking privilege is ‘a thing’, it’s just the train of thought that line set off.

  798. privilege is certainly a thing, but it only goes so far
    I realize this is just a turn of phrase by Russell, but I feel that one of the problems we have when we deal with privilege is that we treat it as a ‘thing’ that people have or don’t have. This is all of a piece of how Western society is able to commodify anything, but in this case, it really obscures what privilege is. As soon as we start thinking of privilege as something held by people rather than seeing it as built in to the relationships and implications from those relationships, it becomes something that we have to try and grab onto and throw out and leads to people getting all bent out of shape when it is pointed out that they somehow ‘have’ privilege. I’ve been turning over different ways to conceptualize it, from military rank or some sort of D&D force multiplier. But thinking of it as something that can be tallied up and measured, has us misunderstand it.
    I have a similar complaint about the concept of microaggressions, because aggression implies some person is actually ‘aggressing’. Yet microaggressions often come about because the person is simply unaware, but the reason we call is an ‘aggression’ is that we have to conceptualize it as an attack in order to make it into unacceptable behavior. Certainly, if we treated microaggressions as something like rain, it puts the onus on people on the receiving end to protect themselves, which is not right. But if we imply an idea that people are causing this, as I think the term aggression does, we have a hard time making people realize what is actually happening.
    This is not to suggest that Russell is thinking privilege is ‘a thing’, it’s just the train of thought that line set off.

  803. I have a similar complaint about the concept of microaggressions, because aggression implies some person is actually ‘aggressing’. Yet microaggressions often come about because the person is simply unaware, but the reason we call is an ‘aggression’ is that we have to conceptualize it as an attack in order to make it into unacceptable behavior.
    My perception, with “microagressions,” is that the term is usually applied to actions which are not intended as attacks, but which the person on the receiving end perceives that way. That is, it seems like, as much as anything, a justification for feeling like a victim.
    I can see how there are cases where those microagressions are, in fact, intentional attacks. Deliberate “put downs”, if you will. But I wonder how big a portion that really is.

  804. I have a similar complaint about the concept of microaggressions, because aggression implies some person is actually ‘aggressing’. Yet microaggressions often come about because the person is simply unaware, but the reason we call is an ‘aggression’ is that we have to conceptualize it as an attack in order to make it into unacceptable behavior.
    My perception, with “microagressions,” is that the term is usually applied to actions which are not intended as attacks, but which the person on the receiving end perceives that way. That is, it seems like, as much as anything, a justification for feeling like a victim.
    I can see how there are cases where those microagressions are, in fact, intentional attacks. Deliberate “put downs”, if you will. But I wonder how big a portion that really is.

  805. “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” —Eleanor Roosevelt
    (probably a misattribution)
    ““A snub” defined the first lady, “is the effort of a person who feels superior to make someone else feel inferior. To do so, he has to find someone who can be made to feel inferior.””

  806. “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” —Eleanor Roosevelt
    (probably a misattribution)
    ““A snub” defined the first lady, “is the effort of a person who feels superior to make someone else feel inferior. To do so, he has to find someone who can be made to feel inferior.””

  807. Sometimes, the mind just boggles. From the Dallas Morning News:

    Vickers ‘Vic’ Cunningham, a former criminal district judge now in a Republican runoff for Dallas County commissioner, acknowledged Friday that he set up a living trust with a clause rewarding his children if they marry a white person. . . . Vic Cunningham denied harboring racial bigotry but did confirm one of his brother’s primary allegations — that his trust includes a stipulation intended to discourage a child from marrying a person of another race or of the same sex.

    I know, intellectually, that there are people like that still. But even so, I find it a bit bewildering.
    Still there is some small amusement in the fact that his son’s girlfriend is Vietnamese (so he’s locked out of the trust if they marry). And his brother is in an interracial gay marriage. It’s just so hard being a bigot these days!

  808. Sometimes, the mind just boggles. From the Dallas Morning News:

    Vickers ‘Vic’ Cunningham, a former criminal district judge now in a Republican runoff for Dallas County commissioner, acknowledged Friday that he set up a living trust with a clause rewarding his children if they marry a white person. . . . Vic Cunningham denied harboring racial bigotry but did confirm one of his brother’s primary allegations — that his trust includes a stipulation intended to discourage a child from marrying a person of another race or of the same sex.

    I know, intellectually, that there are people like that still. But even so, I find it a bit bewildering.
    Still there is some small amusement in the fact that his son’s girlfriend is Vietnamese (so he’s locked out of the trust if they marry). And his brother is in an interracial gay marriage. It’s just so hard being a bigot these days!

  809. Why do they bring up guns? because, out in the hinterlands almost everyone owns guns, but they do not commit crimes with them. Therefore, they see the effort to restrict gun ownership as a gratuitous slap in the face. They also object to being called “gun nuts,” which is a term that does not describe most of them.

  810. Why do they bring up guns? because, out in the hinterlands almost everyone owns guns, but they do not commit crimes with them. Therefore, they see the effort to restrict gun ownership as a gratuitous slap in the face. They also object to being called “gun nuts,” which is a term that does not describe most of them.

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