by Ugh
I guess the Olympics are going on. Adam Rippon is kicking a$$ in interviews and twitter.
Otherwise, this week reminds me of a line from Se7en "Ernest Hemingway once wrote 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'. I agree with the second part."
You do you.
UPDATE: No puppet! No puppet!
“Fighting for” this or that is an interesting meme.
It’s certainly a staple of political rhetoric, sometimes hilariously so. Remember Sarah Palin declaring, in her VP nomination acceptance speech, that she would “fight for” families with special-needs kids? I do, but I don’t remember a single Very Serious Person asking who the hell she expected to have to fight against.
I say anybody who proposes to “fight for” anything without explicitly naming who the fight will be against should be convicted of 1st Degree Triteness on the spot.
–TP
“Fighting for” this or that is an interesting meme.
It’s certainly a staple of political rhetoric, sometimes hilariously so. Remember Sarah Palin declaring, in her VP nomination acceptance speech, that she would “fight for” families with special-needs kids? I do, but I don’t remember a single Very Serious Person asking who the hell she expected to have to fight against.
I say anybody who proposes to “fight for” anything without explicitly naming who the fight will be against should be convicted of 1st Degree Triteness on the spot.
–TP
People who have other priorities?
People who have other priorities?
Name, not describe.
–TP
Name, not describe.
–TP
Fair enough
Fair enough
Yeah. I will fight against … wait for it! … my adversaries!
Yeah. I will fight against … wait for it! … my adversaries!
Basically, our vocabularies suffer from shrinkage. We actually mean that we will work hard, struggle even, for whatever cause we are pushing. But the warrior meme has gotten so imbedded in our culture that “fight” has become the goto verb.
Trite, indeed. Not to mention the cognitive dissonance when someone says that they will fight against violence.
Basically, our vocabularies suffer from shrinkage. We actually mean that we will work hard, struggle even, for whatever cause we are pushing. But the warrior meme has gotten so imbedded in our culture that “fight” has become the goto verb.
Trite, indeed. Not to mention the cognitive dissonance when someone says that they will fight against violence.
I guess the National Enquirer isn’t so objective after all. I’m all over their Obama the nigger and Clinton the lesbian doing threesomes with Putin.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/playboy-models-trump-claims-buried-by-national-enquirer-in-2016-are-aired-in-new-yorker-2018-02-16?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Regarding Death Panel: She meant, via her argle bargle, that she would fight WITH special needs kids, in a tag team match with partner Paul Ryan, both of them with one arm tied behind their backs to make things sportsmanlike.
She meant that she would punch special needs four eyes in their heads and yank their oxygen tubes out BEFORE removing the ramps that enable the kids access to schools and workplaces and government offices, the better to push them down the stairs after they are escorted from Ryan’s doorstep.
She meant, instead of IQ tests, FuckQ tests for the kids with an audience of cackling alt-Nazis attending.
Her own kids, special in their own right, will get their own reality shows shooting cripples from helicopters.
I guess the National Enquirer isn’t so objective after all. I’m all over their Obama the nigger and Clinton the lesbian doing threesomes with Putin.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/playboy-models-trump-claims-buried-by-national-enquirer-in-2016-are-aired-in-new-yorker-2018-02-16?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Regarding Death Panel: She meant, via her argle bargle, that she would fight WITH special needs kids, in a tag team match with partner Paul Ryan, both of them with one arm tied behind their backs to make things sportsmanlike.
She meant that she would punch special needs four eyes in their heads and yank their oxygen tubes out BEFORE removing the ramps that enable the kids access to schools and workplaces and government offices, the better to push them down the stairs after they are escorted from Ryan’s doorstep.
She meant, instead of IQ tests, FuckQ tests for the kids with an audience of cackling alt-Nazis attending.
Her own kids, special in their own right, will get their own reality shows shooting cripples from helicopters.
i can’t wait until it comes out that Trump paid for someone to have an abortion. i have a stopwatch all ready to go, so i can measure, to the second, how long it takes “conservatism” to flip-flop on abortion.
i can’t wait until it comes out that Trump paid for someone to have an abortion. i have a stopwatch all ready to go, so i can measure, to the second, how long it takes “conservatism” to flip-flop on abortion.
cleek,
be prepared for a long wait as the trump exception shall certainly apply.
cleek,
be prepared for a long wait as the trump exception shall certainly apply.
Count, I’m disappointed. I had a bet with myself that you wouldn’t be able to resist the name of the National Enquirer’s CEO. (If an author named a character like this, it would be a sign of a really bad novel.)
Count, I’m disappointed. I had a bet with myself that you wouldn’t be able to resist the name of the National Enquirer’s CEO. (If an author named a character like this, it would be a sign of a really bad novel.)
Regarding the Update:
It seems like a deft approach by Mueller. Indicting the Russians involved keeps the focus on his primary mandate: Russian interference in the election. Which seems likely to make it harder to maintain the “Witch hunt!” argument.
Not that I expect it to keep him from going after various bits of money laundering, etc., as he comes across them. But reminding people what the original question was seems like a good move — over and above being what he was tasked to do.
Regarding the Update:
It seems like a deft approach by Mueller. Indicting the Russians involved keeps the focus on his primary mandate: Russian interference in the election. Which seems likely to make it harder to maintain the “Witch hunt!” argument.
Not that I expect it to keep him from going after various bits of money laundering, etc., as he comes across them. But reminding people what the original question was seems like a good move — over and above being what he was tasked to do.
Yeah, it’s the foot in the door. Once people accept this (assuming they do), it makes it harder for them to reject other stuff tied directly to it.
Yeah, it’s the foot in the door. Once people accept this (assuming they do), it makes it harder for them to reject other stuff tied directly to it.
be prepared for a long wait as the trump exception shall certainly apply
Nah, it’ll go well for him. He’ll just claim (rather unprecedentedly) true repentance.
be prepared for a long wait as the trump exception shall certainly apply
Nah, it’ll go well for him. He’ll just claim (rather unprecedentedly) true repentance.
I can’t wait to see the reaction from the Clinton conspiracy theorists. I’m sure the logic will be very straightforward.
I can’t wait to see the reaction from the Clinton conspiracy theorists. I’m sure the logic will be very straightforward.
wj, I’m disappointed in myself as well.
David Pecker’s mother should be ashamed of herself.
It”s not quite as funny as the Enquirer’s Editor-in-Chief’s name …. Bigus Dickus .. and his hobbies, but here we are:
https://www.spin.com/2017/12/dylan-howard-national-enquirer-us-weekly-top-editor-sexual-harassment/
He’s in charge of “content” at the Enquirer and related publications. I try to keep an eye cocked at the check-out counter.
I’m, whatcha call, a cock-eyed optimist.
wj, I’m disappointed in myself as well.
David Pecker’s mother should be ashamed of herself.
It”s not quite as funny as the Enquirer’s Editor-in-Chief’s name …. Bigus Dickus .. and his hobbies, but here we are:
https://www.spin.com/2017/12/dylan-howard-national-enquirer-us-weekly-top-editor-sexual-harassment/
He’s in charge of “content” at the Enquirer and related publications. I try to keep an eye cocked at the check-out counter.
I’m, whatcha call, a cock-eyed optimist.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dow-rebounds-as-rosenstein-says-no-allegation-any-american-participated-in-unlawful-activity-with-russia-2018-02-16?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Righto!
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/trailguide/la-na-democratic-convention-2016-live-donald-trump-invites-russia-to-hack-1469636224-htmlstory.html
https://www.salon.com/2016/12/14/gop-super-pac-linked-to-paul-ryan-used-illegally-hacked-material-against-democratic-house-candidates-report/
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/23/mitch-mcconnell-russia-obama-joe-biden-359531
In relation to gun control, I do NOT favor firing squad control. For Republicans, unlimited and fully subsidized firing squads should be made available to the millions of them.
To save THEM money, they’ll dig their own trenches to fall in.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dow-rebounds-as-rosenstein-says-no-allegation-any-american-participated-in-unlawful-activity-with-russia-2018-02-16?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Righto!
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/trailguide/la-na-democratic-convention-2016-live-donald-trump-invites-russia-to-hack-1469636224-htmlstory.html
https://www.salon.com/2016/12/14/gop-super-pac-linked-to-paul-ryan-used-illegally-hacked-material-against-democratic-house-candidates-report/
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/23/mitch-mcconnell-russia-obama-joe-biden-359531
In relation to gun control, I do NOT favor firing squad control. For Republicans, unlimited and fully subsidized firing squads should be made available to the millions of them.
To save THEM money, they’ll dig their own trenches to fall in.
FWIW, the professional Dem politicos in my circle are still focused on keeping a damaged Trump in a box while Dems pick up more seats in Congress through ’20 as well as the presidency in ’20.
They are willing to trade Trump judicial appointments and regulatory rollbacks for greater control down the road.
I don’t know how the party can pull that off without pissing off huge parts of their base.
FWIW, the professional Dem politicos in my circle are still focused on keeping a damaged Trump in a box while Dems pick up more seats in Congress through ’20 as well as the presidency in ’20.
They are willing to trade Trump judicial appointments and regulatory rollbacks for greater control down the road.
I don’t know how the party can pull that off without pissing off huge parts of their base.
So here’s a question: The bipartisan bill on DACA got “only” 54 votes in the Senate. Which is to say, it’s got a majority and could pass — what it can’t get is cloture. So how about going forward anyway? If some Senators want to stand up and talk for hours (or days) in order to stop it, why not call their bluff and make them actually do it.
OK, it would interfere with the Senators taking the holiday weekend off and going home for a few days. But it might be worthwhile seeing if the anti-(any-and-all)-immigrants crowd would be willing to actually do the work of talking it to death. (But then, maybe those macho guys aren’t tough enough to talk for hours on end. Unlike certain ladies in the House….)
So here’s a question: The bipartisan bill on DACA got “only” 54 votes in the Senate. Which is to say, it’s got a majority and could pass — what it can’t get is cloture. So how about going forward anyway? If some Senators want to stand up and talk for hours (or days) in order to stop it, why not call their bluff and make them actually do it.
OK, it would interfere with the Senators taking the holiday weekend off and going home for a few days. But it might be worthwhile seeing if the anti-(any-and-all)-immigrants crowd would be willing to actually do the work of talking it to death. (But then, maybe those macho guys aren’t tough enough to talk for hours on end. Unlike certain ladies in the House….)
Rosenstein says no allegation any American participated in unlawful activity with Russia
wow. Rosenstein is getting misinterpreted like crazy, out there in Greater Wingnuttia. what he said was :
and
this comes at 5:10 or so in the linked video:
https://www.nbcnews.com/video/rosenstein-13-russians-charged-for-interfering-in-us-election-1163439683571
he’s not exonerating Trump, or saying there was no knowledge or involvement or collusion. he’s just saying this particular indictment doesn’t have anything to say about those things.
Rosenstein says no allegation any American participated in unlawful activity with Russia
wow. Rosenstein is getting misinterpreted like crazy, out there in Greater Wingnuttia. what he said was :
and
this comes at 5:10 or so in the linked video:
https://www.nbcnews.com/video/rosenstein-13-russians-charged-for-interfering-in-us-election-1163439683571
he’s not exonerating Trump, or saying there was no knowledge or involvement or collusion. he’s just saying this particular indictment doesn’t have anything to say about those things.
FWIW, the professional Dem politicos in my circle are still focused on keeping a damaged Trump in a box while Dems pick up more seats in Congress through ’20 as well as the presidency in ’20.
They are willing to trade Trump judicial appointments and regulatory rollbacks for greater control down the road.
I don’t know how the party can pull that off without pissing off huge parts of their base.
I’m not sure what else they are supposed to do. Are you saying if they gain control of the House or Senate in the midterms they’re just going to sit on their hands?
FWIW, the professional Dem politicos in my circle are still focused on keeping a damaged Trump in a box while Dems pick up more seats in Congress through ’20 as well as the presidency in ’20.
They are willing to trade Trump judicial appointments and regulatory rollbacks for greater control down the road.
I don’t know how the party can pull that off without pissing off huge parts of their base.
I’m not sure what else they are supposed to do. Are you saying if they gain control of the House or Senate in the midterms they’re just going to sit on their hands?
I think they are trying figure out how to sit on their hands without looking like they are sitting on their hands.
Of course these are professional Dem operatives in *Florida* who have managed to lose two gubernatorial elections to a Voldemort cosplayer.
My concern is that I’ve not seen any indication that Pelosi wants to move quickly on impeachment, so this may be more than just Floriduh politics at play.
I think they are trying figure out how to sit on their hands without looking like they are sitting on their hands.
Of course these are professional Dem operatives in *Florida* who have managed to lose two gubernatorial elections to a Voldemort cosplayer.
My concern is that I’ve not seen any indication that Pelosi wants to move quickly on impeachment, so this may be more than just Floriduh politics at play.
he’s just saying this particular indictment doesn’t have anything to say about those things.
I had already guess this without looking into it at all. Not that it makes me a super-impressive guesser or anything. That’s just how things seem to work in the modern whisper-down-the-lane information pipeline.
he’s just saying this particular indictment doesn’t have anything to say about those things.
I had already guess this without looking into it at all. Not that it makes me a super-impressive guesser or anything. That’s just how things seem to work in the modern whisper-down-the-lane information pipeline.
Pdm,
Have you got any idea what those Dem politicos in Florida mean by
“keeping a damaged Trump in a box”?
–TP
Pdm,
Have you got any idea what those Dem politicos in Florida mean by
“keeping a damaged Trump in a box”?
–TP
They are willing to trade Trump judicial appointments and regulatory rollbacks for greater control down the road
It’s impossible that 2020 will yield enough Democrats to impeach Trump since 2/3 are needed in the Senate. What people are weighing is whether having an impeachment proceeding in the House is worth it if there’s going to be nothing in the Senate. It’s not a matter of ceding anything real to Republicans in terms of judicial appointments. Even if Dems get a majority in the Senate, they can’t impeach, but they can block judicial appointments.
They are willing to trade Trump judicial appointments and regulatory rollbacks for greater control down the road
It’s impossible that 2020 will yield enough Democrats to impeach Trump since 2/3 are needed in the Senate. What people are weighing is whether having an impeachment proceeding in the House is worth it if there’s going to be nothing in the Senate. It’s not a matter of ceding anything real to Republicans in terms of judicial appointments. Even if Dems get a majority in the Senate, they can’t impeach, but they can block judicial appointments.
Sorry, substitute “2018” for “2020” in my 3:47.
Sorry, substitute “2018” for “2020” in my 3:47.
and Mueller has already bagged one guy on the “identity fraud” stuff.
and Mueller has already bagged one guy on the “identity fraud” stuff.
Good points, regarding Rosenstein:
Consider that the images and propaganda Russian and East European hackers, meddlers, and election thieves were peddling were supplied by the republican party and the mp campaign.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/02/oh-look-who-helped-with-lock-her-up.html
The National Enquirer’s, Brietbart’s, the RNC “news” sites, and Boris and Natasha’s coverage of the Democratic Party and Clinton were identical in timing and placement.
Good points, regarding Rosenstein:
Consider that the images and propaganda Russian and East European hackers, meddlers, and election thieves were peddling were supplied by the republican party and the mp campaign.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/02/oh-look-who-helped-with-lock-her-up.html
The National Enquirer’s, Brietbart’s, the RNC “news” sites, and Boris and Natasha’s coverage of the Democratic Party and Clinton were identical in timing and placement.
A little fun for everyone:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-pathetic-inadequacy-of-the-trump-opposition/
A little fun for everyone:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-pathetic-inadequacy-of-the-trump-opposition/
people i want to fight:
the jerks that have been calling us every day to try to get us to disclose “information from our utility bill” so they an “give us a refund”.
people who are not handicapped who park in handicapped places.
people who take up more than one space when they park.
people who leave crappy tips.
my wife’s in boston today, ferrying the mother of a good friend of ours from the airport to lodging near the hospital where her son (our friend’s brother) is laid up after having three strokes, probably due to the quart of rum a day he’s apparently been drinking since his father died a month or so ago. our friend can’t do it because she lives on a farm in the ardennes, so my wife is doing it, because she is an extraordinarily excellent person. the son’s girlfriend and ex-wife (two separate people) are likely to be on hand, and generally do not get along, but are united in their disinterest in the mother being present. said mother has some vascular memory issues, and is generally old and dealing with being a widow and the mother of a drunken stroke victim, and is missing her daughter who is probably knee deep in cows and maybe wild boar right about now. son’s girlfriend and ex-wife have both announced that, if mom “needs help”, they will not be providing it.
girlfriend and ex-wife are also people i want to fight.
i’m delighted to see somebody kicking ass and taking names on the f***ing with the american electoral process tip.
people i want to fight:
the jerks that have been calling us every day to try to get us to disclose “information from our utility bill” so they an “give us a refund”.
people who are not handicapped who park in handicapped places.
people who take up more than one space when they park.
people who leave crappy tips.
my wife’s in boston today, ferrying the mother of a good friend of ours from the airport to lodging near the hospital where her son (our friend’s brother) is laid up after having three strokes, probably due to the quart of rum a day he’s apparently been drinking since his father died a month or so ago. our friend can’t do it because she lives on a farm in the ardennes, so my wife is doing it, because she is an extraordinarily excellent person. the son’s girlfriend and ex-wife (two separate people) are likely to be on hand, and generally do not get along, but are united in their disinterest in the mother being present. said mother has some vascular memory issues, and is generally old and dealing with being a widow and the mother of a drunken stroke victim, and is missing her daughter who is probably knee deep in cows and maybe wild boar right about now. son’s girlfriend and ex-wife have both announced that, if mom “needs help”, they will not be providing it.
girlfriend and ex-wife are also people i want to fight.
i’m delighted to see somebody kicking ass and taking names on the f***ing with the american electoral process tip.
…probably due to the quart of rum a day he’s apparently been drinking since his father died a month or so ago.
I can relate to that. I had been drinking a bit more than usual in the months after my father’s death in November. (Plus holidays, plus Eagles Super Bowl run and victory and parade, just for good measure.) Fortunately, to the extent that I’m an alcoholic, I am an easily satisfied one, so I haven’t gotten close to half that per-day amount. Still, a bit of drink on an almost daily basis is troubling. That seems to have subsided over the last couple of weeks, thankfully.
…because she is an extraordinarily excellent person.
As one would expect of Mrs. russell.
…probably due to the quart of rum a day he’s apparently been drinking since his father died a month or so ago.
I can relate to that. I had been drinking a bit more than usual in the months after my father’s death in November. (Plus holidays, plus Eagles Super Bowl run and victory and parade, just for good measure.) Fortunately, to the extent that I’m an alcoholic, I am an easily satisfied one, so I haven’t gotten close to half that per-day amount. Still, a bit of drink on an almost daily basis is troubling. That seems to have subsided over the last couple of weeks, thankfully.
…because she is an extraordinarily excellent person.
As one would expect of Mrs. russell.
I was truly shocked by Se7en when it came out; it’s basically a pulp movie, but so nasty, humourless and mean-spirited that you think it’s much deeper than it actually is – Fincher is a clever guy and a great director, but I only really like “Zodiac”, which has some true depth of character (with “The Game” and “Panic Room” distant seconds – “The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo” is well done but completely unnecessary since the original is very good). I liked Mindhunter.
Pankaj Mishra reviews Ta-Nehisi Coates:
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n04/pankaj-mishra/why-do-white-people-like-what-i-write
I was truly shocked by Se7en when it came out; it’s basically a pulp movie, but so nasty, humourless and mean-spirited that you think it’s much deeper than it actually is – Fincher is a clever guy and a great director, but I only really like “Zodiac”, which has some true depth of character (with “The Game” and “Panic Room” distant seconds – “The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo” is well done but completely unnecessary since the original is very good). I liked Mindhunter.
Pankaj Mishra reviews Ta-Nehisi Coates:
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n04/pankaj-mishra/why-do-white-people-like-what-i-write
I guess you could take that last part a couple of ways. I meant it in the nice one.
I guess you could take that last part a couple of ways. I meant it in the nice one.
Interesting link, novakant. I’ll have to read the last 4 or 5 paragraphs when I get home.
Interesting link, novakant. I’ll have to read the last 4 or 5 paragraphs when I get home.
Peter Wang,15
Peter Wang,15
“The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo” is well done but completely unnecessary since the original is very good
The Swedish Millennium Trilogy movies are very good. I especially like the third one.
Perhaps due to the author dying before editors could get their hands on the books, the books have more subplots than a national forest marijuana plantation.
And headscratchers like why would the titular character submit to sexual abuse from her guardian to get her money when she had the skills to practically pull money out of thin air?
“The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo” is well done but completely unnecessary since the original is very good
The Swedish Millennium Trilogy movies are very good. I especially like the third one.
Perhaps due to the author dying before editors could get their hands on the books, the books have more subplots than a national forest marijuana plantation.
And headscratchers like why would the titular character submit to sexual abuse from her guardian to get her money when she had the skills to practically pull money out of thin air?
“Interesting link, novakant.”
Agree (for the most part). š
“Interesting link, novakant.”
Agree (for the most part). š
my wife is doing it, because she is an extraordinarily excellent person
She sounds like an absolute superhero. Good luck to her, here’s hoping her example will shame girlfriend and ex-wife into behaving vaguely reasonably.
my wife is doing it, because she is an extraordinarily excellent person
She sounds like an absolute superhero. Good luck to her, here’s hoping her example will shame girlfriend and ex-wife into behaving vaguely reasonably.
And headscratchers like why would the titular character submit to sexual abuse from her guardian to get her money when she had the skills to practically pull money out of thin air?
CharlesWT, didn’t she have to keep seeing him to avoid being re-committed to the loony bin and being at the mercy of that horrific psychiatrist?
And headscratchers like why would the titular character submit to sexual abuse from her guardian to get her money when she had the skills to practically pull money out of thin air?
CharlesWT, didn’t she have to keep seeing him to avoid being re-committed to the loony bin and being at the mercy of that horrific psychiatrist?
Anyway, she didn’t “submit to sexual abuse” after he forced her to give him a blowjob the first time, she went back equipped with the hidden video camera in order to entrap him into being blackmailable in the future….
Anyway, she didn’t “submit to sexual abuse” after he forced her to give him a blowjob the first time, she went back equipped with the hidden video camera in order to entrap him into being blackmailable in the future….
Agree (for the most part). š
Yeah, it could have been a bit less wordy while still making the point no less well. Still worth the read. (I feel so unAmerican!)
Agree (for the most part). š
Yeah, it could have been a bit less wordy while still making the point no less well. Still worth the read. (I feel so unAmerican!)
Is Tom Clancy still writing spy-vs-spy potboilers? I only ask because it’s not my turn to keep an eye on him this week. If he is, I can’t wait for his no-doubt-forthcoming The Hunt for Red November.
If John Le Carre has another novel in him, I look forward to Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Trump.
What I worry about is the potential Ken Burns miniseries Civil War Two: the Russo-Confederate Victory.
–TP
Is Tom Clancy still writing spy-vs-spy potboilers? I only ask because it’s not my turn to keep an eye on him this week. If he is, I can’t wait for his no-doubt-forthcoming The Hunt for Red November.
If John Le Carre has another novel in him, I look forward to Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Trump.
What I worry about is the potential Ken Burns miniseries Civil War Two: the Russo-Confederate Victory.
–TP
Just a reminder, since it’s Mueller time:
Clinton’s election was sabotaged. Some folks here saw it live.
People who aren’t worried about Trump/Putin should start posting comments about “moving Putin to the left.”
Just a reminder, since it’s Mueller time:
Clinton’s election was sabotaged. Some folks here saw it live.
People who aren’t worried about Trump/Putin should start posting comments about “moving Putin to the left.”
No wonder ObWi has turned into a science fiction blog. That’s fine.
No wonder ObWi has turned into a science fiction blog. That’s fine.
As one would expect of Mrs. russell.
She sounds like an absolute superhero.
she is a remarkable and unassuming woman of parts, and is an order of magnitude more than i deserve.
Clinton’s election was sabotaged.
ya think?
the time is out of joint. don’t know what will put it right, exactly, or when.
science fiction’s got nothing on plain old reality.
As one would expect of Mrs. russell.
She sounds like an absolute superhero.
she is a remarkable and unassuming woman of parts, and is an order of magnitude more than i deserve.
Clinton’s election was sabotaged.
ya think?
the time is out of joint. don’t know what will put it right, exactly, or when.
science fiction’s got nothing on plain old reality.
Was there anything new today, other than the particular people were identified? I didn’t see anything we didn’t know.
Oh, except the headline on CNN that said Trump couldn’t call it a witch hunt anymore,which is silly, followed by a careful explanation of why “in this indictment” is important which was true.
This neither confirms that there is no collusion nor that there was.
I don’t know a single person who doesn’t believe the Russians were using social media to muck around.
So, good for Mueller, seriously, he caught some bad guys. The ones he was supposed to be looking into all along.
Was there anything new today, other than the particular people were identified? I didn’t see anything we didn’t know.
Oh, except the headline on CNN that said Trump couldn’t call it a witch hunt anymore,which is silly, followed by a careful explanation of why “in this indictment” is important which was true.
This neither confirms that there is no collusion nor that there was.
I don’t know a single person who doesn’t believe the Russians were using social media to muck around.
So, good for Mueller, seriously, he caught some bad guys. The ones he was supposed to be looking into all along.
do you have a point here,marty?
do you have a point here,marty?
and who has he been looking into that he wasn’t “supposed to be looking into all along”?
and who has he been looking into that he wasn’t “supposed to be looking into all along”?
I think Martyās point is that heās been pulled in the direction of supporting the findings of the investigation, which will make it harder to deny future findings that will be intertwined with the ones heās already accepted.
The shoe, that other one – itās gonna drop.
I think Martyās point is that heās been pulled in the direction of supporting the findings of the investigation, which will make it harder to deny future findings that will be intertwined with the ones heās already accepted.
The shoe, that other one – itās gonna drop.
so, who has mueller been looking into that he wasn’t supposed to be looking into?
so, who has mueller been looking into that he wasn’t supposed to be looking into?
I am not sure what hsh said, I was seriously asking if there was something new besides identifying the particular individuals, because what I read didn’t seem to have anything.
I admit to not reading the whole indictment, I listened to Rosenstein and read some of the articles. So just asking.
I am not sure what hsh said, I was seriously asking if there was something new besides identifying the particular individuals, because what I read didn’t seem to have anything.
I admit to not reading the whole indictment, I listened to Rosenstein and read some of the articles. So just asking.
russell, it seems from this he was looking in some of the right places. As far as I can tell this is the first indication they have looked at Russian tampering in the election.
I’M not sure Manaforts finances from 2014 have much to do with his charter. Not that I object too much that he is in trouble.
russell, it seems from this he was looking in some of the right places. As far as I can tell this is the first indication they have looked at Russian tampering in the election.
I’M not sure Manaforts finances from 2014 have much to do with his charter. Not that I object too much that he is in trouble.
Sorry for the delay in responding … I relocated to the coast for the weekend and I needed to engage in heavy drinking to align my chakras with the prevailing tide, temperature and blood alcohol levels.
I have no fncking clue what the politicos mean by “keeping a damaged Trump in a box.” One of them mentioned the value of poking Trump with a stick to elicit a crazy tweet when they needed to goose the base. I like hanging out with these guys up to the point that I no longer feel like a cynical asshole by comparison, then I need to leave before I punch one of them in the taint on general principle.
Even without a super majority in the Senate, the Dems need to engage in a good faith effort to impeach Trump. This isn’t the charge of the light brigade … even if they can’t remove Trump from office, they still win politically. Apparently the risk of loosing Trump as a political foil and causing a Pence presidency are so bad that they are willing to risk alienating the base by only making a token effort at impeachment.
Sorry for the delay in responding … I relocated to the coast for the weekend and I needed to engage in heavy drinking to align my chakras with the prevailing tide, temperature and blood alcohol levels.
I have no fncking clue what the politicos mean by “keeping a damaged Trump in a box.” One of them mentioned the value of poking Trump with a stick to elicit a crazy tweet when they needed to goose the base. I like hanging out with these guys up to the point that I no longer feel like a cynical asshole by comparison, then I need to leave before I punch one of them in the taint on general principle.
Even without a super majority in the Senate, the Dems need to engage in a good faith effort to impeach Trump. This isn’t the charge of the light brigade … even if they can’t remove Trump from office, they still win politically. Apparently the risk of loosing Trump as a political foil and causing a Pence presidency are so bad that they are willing to risk alienating the base by only making a token effort at impeachment.
If Trump is impeached, is it a “token effort” just because the Senate doesn’t convict? Seriously, what does it take to be more than a token effort?
I’d also be interested if anyone here thinks that there might be Republican votes to remove from Senators who would prefer a President Pence. Either because they like Pence’s views, or just because Trump has gotten too embarrassing / toxic.
If Trump is impeached, is it a “token effort” just because the Senate doesn’t convict? Seriously, what does it take to be more than a token effort?
I’d also be interested if anyone here thinks that there might be Republican votes to remove from Senators who would prefer a President Pence. Either because they like Pence’s views, or just because Trump has gotten too embarrassing / toxic.
There might well be R votes in the Senate to remove Trump, if only it was a “secret ballot”. But, it’s not.
There might well be R votes in the Senate to remove Trump, if only it was a “secret ballot”. But, it’s not.
Pollo de muerto talks good.
Pollo de muerto talks good.
There is no such thing as a good faith attempt to impeach Trump. There will never, never, ever be 15+ Republican Senators willing to vote to remove Trump from office.
Assuming the Democrats get the House in 2018, they will have two options:
1) Not impeach Trump, and do their best to discredit him other ways.
2) Have Trump acquitted by the Senate. Because that’s what will happen if they impeach. The media will spin it as a great victory for Trump too – once that happens, any criticism of Trump will be met by “but he was acquitted”.
There is no such thing as a good faith attempt to impeach Trump. There will never, never, ever be 15+ Republican Senators willing to vote to remove Trump from office.
Assuming the Democrats get the House in 2018, they will have two options:
1) Not impeach Trump, and do their best to discredit him other ways.
2) Have Trump acquitted by the Senate. Because that’s what will happen if they impeach. The media will spin it as a great victory for Trump too – once that happens, any criticism of Trump will be met by “but he was acquitted”.
Tony P: Clancy’s dead, so he’s not writing any more of anything.
Tony P: Clancy’s dead, so he’s not writing any more of anything.
Helena Ramsay
Helena Ramsay
Josh Marshall’s thoughts, unfortunately behind a paywall, about the indictment
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/prime-beta/notes-on-muellers-new-indictments
However, his takeaways are
1. The US appears to have an impressive level of surveillance on the actors in question, travel records, email communications between the operatives managing the plot, money transfers, communications with various US residents (albeit apparently unwitting). If I was a US national and did anything wrong in this whole caper, I would be very nervous after reading this document. Muellerās investigators appear to have a vast amount of very granular information about this plot, more frankly than I imagined and I suspect far more than is included in this indictment.
2. We are hearing that the same actors (though perhaps not the same actual people) are already at work on the 2018 election. This gives a feeling for just what kinds of activities US intelligence officials are talking about. President Trump has apparently been totally passive about this. Law enforcement and counter-intelligence are, one would hope, acting on their own. But that kind of lack of focus, intentional and deliberate lack of focus, inevitably has an effect.
3. Always remember with indictments and charging documents, the government doesnāt have to and seldom does reveal all the information it has. It is impossible to read this document and not think thereās a great deal more Muellerās investigators know and are holding back. Frequently specific actors remain anonymous while others are named and indicted. Weāre not told why.
He gives specific passages in the indictment to back that up, and argues that there’s more going on that is coming down the pipe.
If you want to follow this stuff, you may want to support Josh.
Josh Marshall’s thoughts, unfortunately behind a paywall, about the indictment
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/prime-beta/notes-on-muellers-new-indictments
However, his takeaways are
1. The US appears to have an impressive level of surveillance on the actors in question, travel records, email communications between the operatives managing the plot, money transfers, communications with various US residents (albeit apparently unwitting). If I was a US national and did anything wrong in this whole caper, I would be very nervous after reading this document. Muellerās investigators appear to have a vast amount of very granular information about this plot, more frankly than I imagined and I suspect far more than is included in this indictment.
2. We are hearing that the same actors (though perhaps not the same actual people) are already at work on the 2018 election. This gives a feeling for just what kinds of activities US intelligence officials are talking about. President Trump has apparently been totally passive about this. Law enforcement and counter-intelligence are, one would hope, acting on their own. But that kind of lack of focus, intentional and deliberate lack of focus, inevitably has an effect.
3. Always remember with indictments and charging documents, the government doesnāt have to and seldom does reveal all the information it has. It is impossible to read this document and not think thereās a great deal more Muellerās investigators know and are holding back. Frequently specific actors remain anonymous while others are named and indicted. Weāre not told why.
He gives specific passages in the indictment to back that up, and argues that there’s more going on that is coming down the pipe.
If you want to follow this stuff, you may want to support Josh.
Count-
Get me to the coast and put a few drinks in me and this bird turns into a salty dog.
FE-
I think they need to do 2 and I think it’s a no-brainer because it’s the right thing to do*; these guys were worried that there are more Senate pubs willing to dump Trump one would think. They were looking at the electoral map for 2020 and apparently there are enough purple state/vulnerable pubs up for reelection make it close; or at least too close for their comfort. They are pushing for scenario 1 and are doing so based completely on calculus that maximized Dem gains in Congress and in state houses.
LP-
I’m a prime member at TPM and a paying member of American Ideas Institute (i.e., The American Conservative). Venn diagram party of one.
* I’m assuming Trump is dead to rights on at least obstruction.
Count-
Get me to the coast and put a few drinks in me and this bird turns into a salty dog.
FE-
I think they need to do 2 and I think it’s a no-brainer because it’s the right thing to do*; these guys were worried that there are more Senate pubs willing to dump Trump one would think. They were looking at the electoral map for 2020 and apparently there are enough purple state/vulnerable pubs up for reelection make it close; or at least too close for their comfort. They are pushing for scenario 1 and are doing so based completely on calculus that maximized Dem gains in Congress and in state houses.
LP-
I’m a prime member at TPM and a paying member of American Ideas Institute (i.e., The American Conservative). Venn diagram party of one.
* I’m assuming Trump is dead to rights on at least obstruction.
I’M not sure Manaforts finances from 2014 have much to do with his charter. Not that I object too much that he is in trouble.
2014 is hardly too early to be involved in a 2016 Presidential run. raising money, laying the groundwork, feeling-out the terrain. that’s perfectly believable. a lot happens before a campaign is officially declared (partially for money-making regulation reasons).
so, it’s possible that Manafort, Page, Don Jr, whomever, was involved in buying Russian favors, which (hypothetically) could be connected to what Mueller announced Friday.
we won’t know if Mueller doesn’t look.
and if Mueller finds tangential crimes while pursuing serious crimes, it would be a mistake for him to not try to leverage the former for info about the latter.
I’M not sure Manaforts finances from 2014 have much to do with his charter. Not that I object too much that he is in trouble.
2014 is hardly too early to be involved in a 2016 Presidential run. raising money, laying the groundwork, feeling-out the terrain. that’s perfectly believable. a lot happens before a campaign is officially declared (partially for money-making regulation reasons).
so, it’s possible that Manafort, Page, Don Jr, whomever, was involved in buying Russian favors, which (hypothetically) could be connected to what Mueller announced Friday.
we won’t know if Mueller doesn’t look.
and if Mueller finds tangential crimes while pursuing serious crimes, it would be a mistake for him to not try to leverage the former for info about the latter.
I am not expecting to persuade people, but here I what I think.
1. The truly effective thing the Russians apparently did was to obtain the DNC emails. This was effective because it showed the DNC was colluding with the Clinton campaign and contributed to an already widespread and to some degree justified sense of cynicism about our institutions. Wikileaks claims the source was someone elseā true or not, it has at least a superficial plausibility because this is also the sort of thing a whistleblower would do. The end result was possibly some Sanders supporters who refused to vote for Clinton in November, but whether that made a difference would be hard to show.
Incidentally, the wikileaks dump also showed the influence of a witless Hollywood billionaire on the Clinton campaign named Haim Saban. The far left covered this. The point being that the most effective propaganda is sometimes effective on people because it is true.
2. The Russian social media stuff is a tiny fraction of the vitriol that has been part of our politics all along. They could pass themselves off as Americans because they were employing the same level of low level childish nonsense that is pervasive on talk radio, cable news, and the internet. Try reading the comments after any Yahoo news piece and you will see some amazingly stupid political crap even after stories which are not political. The Russians didnāt invent this. They copied it and deployed it on a much smaller scale than we do to ourselves.
3. Yes, people who employ fraud and steal identities should be prosecuted. Calling this a huge national security treat is pathetic. If internet trolls, Russian or not, are a huge national security threat then you might as well just give up on this whole democracy thing because we have been lying and BSā ing for as long as we have existed and adding some foreign trolls does not constitute a fundamental change. Yes, expose the Russian aspect and try to stop it, but the way the NYT editors and others treat this is hysterical.
4. My posts wouldnāt be complete without some whataboutism and eqivalencies and this part could go on for days. I donāt apologize for this. Those who talk against ā purityā are implicitly employing their own criteria for deciding which bad things are more important than others. But we interfere in other countries and they in ours and sometimes right out in the open. Bill Clinton interfered in Israeli elections against Netanyahu. It was open. Netanyahu openly interfered in ours in 2012. Time Magazine bragged about our interference for Yeltsin in 1996, who was a disaster for Russia in ways Trump can so far only dream about. Haaretz had a piece linked by the NYT recently about how Al Jazeera exposed Israeli scheming against politicians in Britain. They apparently have a documentary about that in the US and a New Jersey Democratic congressman wants Al Jazeera to be registered as a foreign agent because of this not yet released American documentary.
And thatās before we get into arming terrorists and supporting coups and bombing civilians.
If the Russians try hacking voting machines then that will be serious, not least because it also means anyone could do it. You will be able to judge how worried people are by seeing if (as the nakedcapitalism people recommend) they all demand paper ballots hand counted in public. If they donāt, then they arenāt really worried, they donāt really see this as a major threat, or they prefer a hackable system for some reason.
I am not expecting to persuade people, but here I what I think.
1. The truly effective thing the Russians apparently did was to obtain the DNC emails. This was effective because it showed the DNC was colluding with the Clinton campaign and contributed to an already widespread and to some degree justified sense of cynicism about our institutions. Wikileaks claims the source was someone elseā true or not, it has at least a superficial plausibility because this is also the sort of thing a whistleblower would do. The end result was possibly some Sanders supporters who refused to vote for Clinton in November, but whether that made a difference would be hard to show.
Incidentally, the wikileaks dump also showed the influence of a witless Hollywood billionaire on the Clinton campaign named Haim Saban. The far left covered this. The point being that the most effective propaganda is sometimes effective on people because it is true.
2. The Russian social media stuff is a tiny fraction of the vitriol that has been part of our politics all along. They could pass themselves off as Americans because they were employing the same level of low level childish nonsense that is pervasive on talk radio, cable news, and the internet. Try reading the comments after any Yahoo news piece and you will see some amazingly stupid political crap even after stories which are not political. The Russians didnāt invent this. They copied it and deployed it on a much smaller scale than we do to ourselves.
3. Yes, people who employ fraud and steal identities should be prosecuted. Calling this a huge national security treat is pathetic. If internet trolls, Russian or not, are a huge national security threat then you might as well just give up on this whole democracy thing because we have been lying and BSā ing for as long as we have existed and adding some foreign trolls does not constitute a fundamental change. Yes, expose the Russian aspect and try to stop it, but the way the NYT editors and others treat this is hysterical.
4. My posts wouldnāt be complete without some whataboutism and eqivalencies and this part could go on for days. I donāt apologize for this. Those who talk against ā purityā are implicitly employing their own criteria for deciding which bad things are more important than others. But we interfere in other countries and they in ours and sometimes right out in the open. Bill Clinton interfered in Israeli elections against Netanyahu. It was open. Netanyahu openly interfered in ours in 2012. Time Magazine bragged about our interference for Yeltsin in 1996, who was a disaster for Russia in ways Trump can so far only dream about. Haaretz had a piece linked by the NYT recently about how Al Jazeera exposed Israeli scheming against politicians in Britain. They apparently have a documentary about that in the US and a New Jersey Democratic congressman wants Al Jazeera to be registered as a foreign agent because of this not yet released American documentary.
And thatās before we get into arming terrorists and supporting coups and bombing civilians.
If the Russians try hacking voting machines then that will be serious, not least because it also means anyone could do it. You will be able to judge how worried people are by seeing if (as the nakedcapitalism people recommend) they all demand paper ballots hand counted in public. If they donāt, then they arenāt really worried, they donāt really see this as a major threat, or they prefer a hackable system for some reason.
Here is the Haaretz piece linked by the NYT.
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/al-jazeera-we-reported-undercover-in-u-s-pro-israel-orgs-1.5456748
Here is the Haaretz piece linked by the NYT.
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/al-jazeera-we-reported-undercover-in-u-s-pro-israel-orgs-1.5456748
And here is the NYT piece where I found the Haaretz link
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/us/politics/trump-qatar-lobbying-embargo.html#click=https://t.co/dugsxOXyfj
You have to scroll down and if you werenāt aware of the issue I suspect most people would miss it.
And here is the NYT piece where I found the Haaretz link
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/us/politics/trump-qatar-lobbying-embargo.html#click=https://t.co/dugsxOXyfj
You have to scroll down and if you werenāt aware of the issue I suspect most people would miss it.
If the Russians try hacking voting machines then that will be serious,
serious enough that we won’t be told to STFU because the US has done something wrong somewhere ?
i have my doubts.
If the Russians try hacking voting machines then that will be serious,
serious enough that we won’t be told to STFU because the US has done something wrong somewhere ?
i have my doubts.
Yes, expose the Russian aspect and try to stop it, but the way the NYT editors and others treat this is hysterical.
Donald, people on ObWi have implicitly and explicitly said (I almost said admitted, but they didn’t have to be forced to admit) that the US has at times indulged in great skulduggery, with regard to other countries’ democratic processes among other issues. It’s good of you to say that the “Russian aspect” should be stopped, but as far as I can gather, apart from a widespread acceptance that Russia/Putin means the US/Western democracies no good and should be countered, the main point of what you call hysteria, in the NYT, here and elsewhere, is to identify, prosecute and convict Americans who may have been aiding and abetting Russia in its destabilisation project. This latest indictment is widely seen as a step toward achieving this by making the investigation unstoppable. Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but you never seem to address the particular issue, which even Trump gets, of collusion.
Yes, expose the Russian aspect and try to stop it, but the way the NYT editors and others treat this is hysterical.
Donald, people on ObWi have implicitly and explicitly said (I almost said admitted, but they didn’t have to be forced to admit) that the US has at times indulged in great skulduggery, with regard to other countries’ democratic processes among other issues. It’s good of you to say that the “Russian aspect” should be stopped, but as far as I can gather, apart from a widespread acceptance that Russia/Putin means the US/Western democracies no good and should be countered, the main point of what you call hysteria, in the NYT, here and elsewhere, is to identify, prosecute and convict Americans who may have been aiding and abetting Russia in its destabilisation project. This latest indictment is widely seen as a step toward achieving this by making the investigation unstoppable. Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but you never seem to address the particular issue, which even Trump gets, of collusion.
From the Count’s link:
A majority of Democrats now has a favourable view of George W Bush – shudder…
http://thehill.com/homenews/news/357109-poll-dems-have-favorable-view-of-george-w-bush
From the Count’s link:
A majority of Democrats now has a favourable view of George W Bush – shudder…
http://thehill.com/homenews/news/357109-poll-dems-have-favorable-view-of-george-w-bush
golly. ya don’t say.
golly. ya don’t say.
marty, thanks for your reasonable reply to my quite blunt comment.
fwiw, mueller’s brief is quite broad. he’s authorized primarily to investigate coordination between the trump campaign and the russian government, but he is also authorized to prosecute any federal crimes he discovers in the course of the investigation.
so, manafort, gates, flynn. and i will say that undisclosed employment by a foreign nation while either running a campaign for POTUS or acting as national security advisor for same really ought to attract attention.
i don’t care if trump is impeached or not. if he is impeached, he will immediately be embraced as a martyr to the machinations of the tyrranical deep state and another million ar-15’s will fly off the shelves.
that said, it would be good to establish some basic baseline of competence and regard for the responsibilities of office. we’ve had profoundly bad presidents before, but it would be worthwhile to draw the line somewhere.
what i want is for mueller’s investigation to proceed to its conclusion without interference, and for the findings to be acted upon in whatever way is appropriate.
i put my odds at slightly less than even, but i am confident in mueller’s personal integrity. i think he’ll do the best job that it’s possible to do.
marty, thanks for your reasonable reply to my quite blunt comment.
fwiw, mueller’s brief is quite broad. he’s authorized primarily to investigate coordination between the trump campaign and the russian government, but he is also authorized to prosecute any federal crimes he discovers in the course of the investigation.
so, manafort, gates, flynn. and i will say that undisclosed employment by a foreign nation while either running a campaign for POTUS or acting as national security advisor for same really ought to attract attention.
i don’t care if trump is impeached or not. if he is impeached, he will immediately be embraced as a martyr to the machinations of the tyrranical deep state and another million ar-15’s will fly off the shelves.
that said, it would be good to establish some basic baseline of competence and regard for the responsibilities of office. we’ve had profoundly bad presidents before, but it would be worthwhile to draw the line somewhere.
what i want is for mueller’s investigation to proceed to its conclusion without interference, and for the findings to be acted upon in whatever way is appropriate.
i put my odds at slightly less than even, but i am confident in mueller’s personal integrity. i think he’ll do the best job that it’s possible to do.
“This latest indictment is widely seen as a step toward achieving this by making the investigation unstoppable.”
Really? It isn’t just an indictment of people who have been identified has having broken US laws?
It seems to be inevitable that anything that happens in this investigation gets overly interpreted by both sides.
“This latest indictment is widely seen as a step toward achieving this by making the investigation unstoppable.”
Really? It isn’t just an indictment of people who have been identified has having broken US laws?
It seems to be inevitable that anything that happens in this investigation gets overly interpreted by both sides.
It isn’t just an indictment of people who have been identified has having broken US laws?
i think the word “just” here is misplaced.
the indictment establishes that there was, in fact, illegal interference in the US electoral process carried out by foreign nationals, and specifically Russian foeign nationals.
if your intent was to build a case that US nationals invited, encouraged, or participated in such a thing, you would first need to establish that such a thing in fact existed. beyond the level of rumor or “everybody knows” conventional wisdom.
its also useful, if you are trying to demonstrate “collusion” however defined, to be able to identify specific individuals and/or organizations as the counterparties.
to donald’s points, yes “we all do it”, but I’m also delighted to see these creeps rolled up. and if you think that Russian influence in US policy wouldn’t result in bombs landing on somebody’s head, i say you are mistaken.
we have our flaws, and they are manifold, but we ain’t Russia. let’s keep it that way.
It isn’t just an indictment of people who have been identified has having broken US laws?
i think the word “just” here is misplaced.
the indictment establishes that there was, in fact, illegal interference in the US electoral process carried out by foreign nationals, and specifically Russian foeign nationals.
if your intent was to build a case that US nationals invited, encouraged, or participated in such a thing, you would first need to establish that such a thing in fact existed. beyond the level of rumor or “everybody knows” conventional wisdom.
its also useful, if you are trying to demonstrate “collusion” however defined, to be able to identify specific individuals and/or organizations as the counterparties.
to donald’s points, yes “we all do it”, but I’m also delighted to see these creeps rolled up. and if you think that Russian influence in US policy wouldn’t result in bombs landing on somebody’s head, i say you are mistaken.
we have our flaws, and they are manifold, but we ain’t Russia. let’s keep it that way.
it being a “whatever” thread, i’ll add that i don’t have to work this weekend for the first time in about a month, i’ve got a fresh pot of tea on, and ashkenazy is playing the moonlight sonata on my stereo.
so, a not-bad day, in spite of it all.
gota smell the flowers, y’all.
it being a “whatever” thread, i’ll add that i don’t have to work this weekend for the first time in about a month, i’ve got a fresh pot of tea on, and ashkenazy is playing the moonlight sonata on my stereo.
so, a not-bad day, in spite of it all.
gota smell the flowers, y’all.
if your intent was to build a case that US nationals invited, encouraged, or participated in such a thing, you would first need to establish that such a thing in fact existed. beyond the level of rumor or “everybody knows” conventional wisdom.
its also useful, if you are trying to demonstrate “collusion” however defined, to be able to identify specific individuals and/or organizations as the counterparties.
Amen.
if your intent was to build a case that US nationals invited, encouraged, or participated in such a thing, you would first need to establish that such a thing in fact existed. beyond the level of rumor or “everybody knows” conventional wisdom.
its also useful, if you are trying to demonstrate “collusion” however defined, to be able to identify specific individuals and/or organizations as the counterparties.
Amen.
If the Russians try hacking voting machines then that will be serious…
Living in a state where the vast majority of the ballots are paper, I’m more concerned about hacking the voter registration database/system.
Colorado would have handily finished first overall in a recent Pew study of election security except for two measures that automatically punish vote-by-mail states heavily. According to the Secretary of State’s office, we’ve been getting a lot of visitors from other states who want to study our audit processes.
If the Russians try hacking voting machines then that will be serious…
Living in a state where the vast majority of the ballots are paper, I’m more concerned about hacking the voter registration database/system.
Colorado would have handily finished first overall in a recent Pew study of election security except for two measures that automatically punish vote-by-mail states heavily. According to the Secretary of State’s office, we’ve been getting a lot of visitors from other states who want to study our audit processes.
russell, I see that is important. It helps if you are trying to establish a conspiracy to show there was a crime, even if,say, the conspiracy is mostly the cover up.
I have said that one of the differences between this and Watergate was the absence of the proof of the original crime. I am not sure that the tie is as direct here but at least there is a crime to build a conspiracy around.
Next challenge I suppose is three things:
1) Is there any conspiracy, based on the breadth of what they did it becomes harder to imagine a US actor that had motive to willingly participate
2) Since most of the indictments are about how they did it, would the US actors be accountable for that
3) Is there proof of a link to the Russian government, which would be required for a collusion charge.
russell, I see that is important. It helps if you are trying to establish a conspiracy to show there was a crime, even if,say, the conspiracy is mostly the cover up.
I have said that one of the differences between this and Watergate was the absence of the proof of the original crime. I am not sure that the tie is as direct here but at least there is a crime to build a conspiracy around.
Next challenge I suppose is three things:
1) Is there any conspiracy, based on the breadth of what they did it becomes harder to imagine a US actor that had motive to willingly participate
2) Since most of the indictments are about how they did it, would the US actors be accountable for that
3) Is there proof of a link to the Russian government, which would be required for a collusion charge.
“First, he says, they tweet out news and breaking developments. This helps them to gain attention and attract new followers. Then they begin tweeting highly inflammatory material to fan the flames of partisanship”
Finally, Schafer says, the accounts shift to conspiracy theories. “They build this narrative of, ‘You are being lied to by the government, by the media, by everyone else, so don’t trust anyone or anything,’ ” he says. “It’s not just divisive, there’s an erosion quality to it as well ā of eroding trust.”
Such familiar words.
These two paragraphs are the precise working boilerplate and mission statement the conservative movement in America has been charged with carrying out since the John Birch Society handed it to Barry Goldwater as he prepared for the 1964 election with the direction to halt all civil rights and rollback all social insurance legislation since 1932.
Every republican candidate at every level of government ever since has those two paragraphs as the summarizing abstract at the top of their campaign platforms.
It was Ronald Reagan’s catechism. Richard Nixon’s minions, many still with us like draculian retreads, have those words placed in time capsules and shoved up their fundaments for safe-keeping.
When Rush Limbaugh decided to haul the draft-dodging boils on his ass from high school sports broadcasting to employ them in the service of the total pollution of the airwaves, those two paragraphs were his touchstone.
Ibit for every piece of shit traitorous conservative radio and TV FOX News operative since.
Paul Weyrich and Richard Viguerie’s mothers sewed those words into their jockey shorts.
Phyllis Schafly’s bunny suit in which she seduced Bill Bennett was sewn from the itchy fabric of those two paragraphs.
Grover Norquist? Case closed.
The Kochs? Their raison d’etre with Daddy’s money.
Art Pope in North Carolina? You got it.
The Falwells. Pat Robertson. William Bright. Those two paragraphs were Genesis, verses one and two.
The soon to be prayed over inhabitants of the Texas Governor’s Office have those paragraphs engraved into the gun metal of their concealed and unconcealed weaponry.
Newt Gingrich? Those two paragraghs were the contract. But not with any reputable American we know.
Ayn Rand put those two paragraphs to her droning music in the scene wherein Dagny Taggart jacks off John Galt as they neared the edge of the gulch.
When Moe Lane left here in a snowflake snit to sign on at Redstate to help peddle their brand of horseshit, he was presented with those words on a scroll. Erick Erickson, that righteous prat, merely added the exclamation marks.
Putin and his operatives are Johnny come latelies in their support of this poisonous movement.
The Russians and the Eastern European AND American hackers and anonymous influencers are merely the latest contractors hired by the conservative movement to carry out their mission.
And then there is mp. An apotheosis of the poison fed into the American brain stem for 60 years by the conservative movement, but not the last one and not the deadliest. There’s more to come.
The subhuman filth in the Arizona statehouse are just now drafting legislation to abolish the 17th Amendment. THEY and they alone would be able to choose the Senators to “represent” that State, if in fact they don’t secede from the Union.
I know what I want.
Everyone here knows what it is.
“First, he says, they tweet out news and breaking developments. This helps them to gain attention and attract new followers. Then they begin tweeting highly inflammatory material to fan the flames of partisanship”
Finally, Schafer says, the accounts shift to conspiracy theories. “They build this narrative of, ‘You are being lied to by the government, by the media, by everyone else, so don’t trust anyone or anything,’ ” he says. “It’s not just divisive, there’s an erosion quality to it as well ā of eroding trust.”
Such familiar words.
These two paragraphs are the precise working boilerplate and mission statement the conservative movement in America has been charged with carrying out since the John Birch Society handed it to Barry Goldwater as he prepared for the 1964 election with the direction to halt all civil rights and rollback all social insurance legislation since 1932.
Every republican candidate at every level of government ever since has those two paragraphs as the summarizing abstract at the top of their campaign platforms.
It was Ronald Reagan’s catechism. Richard Nixon’s minions, many still with us like draculian retreads, have those words placed in time capsules and shoved up their fundaments for safe-keeping.
When Rush Limbaugh decided to haul the draft-dodging boils on his ass from high school sports broadcasting to employ them in the service of the total pollution of the airwaves, those two paragraphs were his touchstone.
Ibit for every piece of shit traitorous conservative radio and TV FOX News operative since.
Paul Weyrich and Richard Viguerie’s mothers sewed those words into their jockey shorts.
Phyllis Schafly’s bunny suit in which she seduced Bill Bennett was sewn from the itchy fabric of those two paragraphs.
Grover Norquist? Case closed.
The Kochs? Their raison d’etre with Daddy’s money.
Art Pope in North Carolina? You got it.
The Falwells. Pat Robertson. William Bright. Those two paragraphs were Genesis, verses one and two.
The soon to be prayed over inhabitants of the Texas Governor’s Office have those paragraphs engraved into the gun metal of their concealed and unconcealed weaponry.
Newt Gingrich? Those two paragraghs were the contract. But not with any reputable American we know.
Ayn Rand put those two paragraphs to her droning music in the scene wherein Dagny Taggart jacks off John Galt as they neared the edge of the gulch.
When Moe Lane left here in a snowflake snit to sign on at Redstate to help peddle their brand of horseshit, he was presented with those words on a scroll. Erick Erickson, that righteous prat, merely added the exclamation marks.
Putin and his operatives are Johnny come latelies in their support of this poisonous movement.
The Russians and the Eastern European AND American hackers and anonymous influencers are merely the latest contractors hired by the conservative movement to carry out their mission.
And then there is mp. An apotheosis of the poison fed into the American brain stem for 60 years by the conservative movement, but not the last one and not the deadliest. There’s more to come.
The subhuman filth in the Arizona statehouse are just now drafting legislation to abolish the 17th Amendment. THEY and they alone would be able to choose the Senators to “represent” that State, if in fact they don’t secede from the Union.
I know what I want.
Everyone here knows what it is.
1) Is there any conspiracy, based on the breadth of what they did it becomes harder to imagine a US actor that had motive to willingly participate
there are plenty of things out there that could, with more digging, turn out to be just such a conspiracy. interesting associations and unlikely coincidences.
Mueller probably knows things he isn’t telling us.
1) Is there any conspiracy, based on the breadth of what they did it becomes harder to imagine a US actor that had motive to willingly participate
there are plenty of things out there that could, with more digging, turn out to be just such a conspiracy. interesting associations and unlikely coincidences.
Mueller probably knows things he isn’t telling us.
Stay away, asshole(s):
https://www.thedailybeast.com/parkland-students-to-president-trump-stay-far-away-from-us?via=newsletter&source=Weekend
I see Rick Scott, who stole millions of dollars from Medicare, many times over, and which he capitalized on to win the hearts and minds of republican old fucks in Florida ON Medicare to become Governor, is calling for the resignation pf FBI Director Chris Wray over claims that agency has knowledge of the school shooter’s intentions.
This seems awfully convenient.
Now, were I an unfumigated Alex Jones of the insane Left, which I am, but only in the powerless context of the OBWI commentariat, I would broadcast to my millions of impressionable, armed minions that the Broward County (Broward again, hanh? Broward and Waco seem to have most of the fun. What gives with that?) high school murders are a false flag operation carried out by deep state mp republicans in the intelligence and law enforcement agencies of the Federal Government on behalf of the entire conservative movement’s effort to purge all government of all individuals who do not pledge undying loyalty to that pigfucking movement.
I would have witnesses on my show attesting to the presence of Alex Jones himself, that fucking subhuman murderer, in the vicinity of the school at the time of the shooting, perhaps disguised as a crosswalk guide ushering kids back into the school as the murderer approached.
I would read vaguely sourced communications between Scott’s people and the mp White House and the conservative filth in the New York office of the FBI leading up to the conservative sport shooting event.
The Republican Party ordered these hits to go after bigger game.
True or false? It doesn’t matter in pigfuck republican America.
Whatever helps kill the conservative movement will become enshrined fact.
What? You think I haven’t been observing and internalizing the methods of the anti-American conservative movement for 40 years?
And to dispel charges of partisanship in these charges, let me repeat: Fuck the hapless Democratic Party.
What comes after the republican party is destroyed and made illegal on American soil is of no interest or consequence to me.
Stay away, asshole(s):
https://www.thedailybeast.com/parkland-students-to-president-trump-stay-far-away-from-us?via=newsletter&source=Weekend
I see Rick Scott, who stole millions of dollars from Medicare, many times over, and which he capitalized on to win the hearts and minds of republican old fucks in Florida ON Medicare to become Governor, is calling for the resignation pf FBI Director Chris Wray over claims that agency has knowledge of the school shooter’s intentions.
This seems awfully convenient.
Now, were I an unfumigated Alex Jones of the insane Left, which I am, but only in the powerless context of the OBWI commentariat, I would broadcast to my millions of impressionable, armed minions that the Broward County (Broward again, hanh? Broward and Waco seem to have most of the fun. What gives with that?) high school murders are a false flag operation carried out by deep state mp republicans in the intelligence and law enforcement agencies of the Federal Government on behalf of the entire conservative movement’s effort to purge all government of all individuals who do not pledge undying loyalty to that pigfucking movement.
I would have witnesses on my show attesting to the presence of Alex Jones himself, that fucking subhuman murderer, in the vicinity of the school at the time of the shooting, perhaps disguised as a crosswalk guide ushering kids back into the school as the murderer approached.
I would read vaguely sourced communications between Scott’s people and the mp White House and the conservative filth in the New York office of the FBI leading up to the conservative sport shooting event.
The Republican Party ordered these hits to go after bigger game.
True or false? It doesn’t matter in pigfuck republican America.
Whatever helps kill the conservative movement will become enshrined fact.
What? You think I haven’t been observing and internalizing the methods of the anti-American conservative movement for 40 years?
And to dispel charges of partisanship in these charges, let me repeat: Fuck the hapless Democratic Party.
What comes after the republican party is destroyed and made illegal on American soil is of no interest or consequence to me.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/exclusive-school-shooter-instagram-group/index.html
He’s a dyed in the wool racist NRA republican. If Manchuria was the name of a red state, that would be his address.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/exclusive-school-shooter-instagram-group/index.html
He’s a dyed in the wool racist NRA republican. If Manchuria was the name of a red state, that would be his address.
Word:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7APmRkatEU
Word:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7APmRkatEU
i shouldn’t bother, but i’ve been lurking in Breitbart comment sections, reading what they think of Nikolas Cruz. and it’s truly shocking how many of them believe all of the nonsense that was pushed by Russian twitter bots about Cruz. the “commie shirt”, “he was a registered Democrat”, “he was dressed in black in that one picture therefore: ANTIFA”, “‘Cruz’ means he was Hispanic”. everything the Russian bots pushed, they believe, and repeat, and defend. no matter how thoroughly debunked the story is, they believe it.
makes it tempting to think that a lot of the people there are, in reality, Russian trolls themselves.
i shouldn’t bother, but i’ve been lurking in Breitbart comment sections, reading what they think of Nikolas Cruz. and it’s truly shocking how many of them believe all of the nonsense that was pushed by Russian twitter bots about Cruz. the “commie shirt”, “he was a registered Democrat”, “he was dressed in black in that one picture therefore: ANTIFA”, “‘Cruz’ means he was Hispanic”. everything the Russian bots pushed, they believe, and repeat, and defend. no matter how thoroughly debunked the story is, they believe it.
makes it tempting to think that a lot of the people there are, in reality, Russian trolls themselves.
if Mueller finds tangential crimes while pursuing serious crimes, it would be a mistake for him to not try to leverage the former for info about the latter.
Actually, if I have understood correctly, his mandate includes prosecuting any criminal activity that he comes across in the course of his investigation, regardless of whether it is part of the Russian effort.
if Mueller finds tangential crimes while pursuing serious crimes, it would be a mistake for him to not try to leverage the former for info about the latter.
Actually, if I have understood correctly, his mandate includes prosecuting any criminal activity that he comes across in the course of his investigation, regardless of whether it is part of the Russian effort.
so, a not-bad day, in spite of it all.
Here, too. It’s even supposed to hit 70. Now if we could just get some rain….
so, a not-bad day, in spite of it all.
Here, too. It’s even supposed to hit 70. Now if we could just get some rain….
) Is there any conspiracy, based on the breadth of what they did it becomes harder to imagine a US actor that had motive to willingly participate
2) Since most of the indictments are about how they did it, would the US actors be accountable for that
3) Is there proof of a link to the Russian government, which would be required for a collusion charge.
As noted above, 1) isn’t really all that hard to imagine. For some, money is all the motivation needed for voluntary participation. And that’s before we come to the question of involuntary participation.
As for 3), I’m not sure proof of a link to the Russian government is required in order to establish conspiracy to work with foreign (Russian) nationals to influence the election. I don’t really think that you’d need to get to “preponderance of the evidence”, let alone “beyond a reasonable doubt,” that the Russian government was supporting (if not controlling) said foreign actors.
) Is there any conspiracy, based on the breadth of what they did it becomes harder to imagine a US actor that had motive to willingly participate
2) Since most of the indictments are about how they did it, would the US actors be accountable for that
3) Is there proof of a link to the Russian government, which would be required for a collusion charge.
As noted above, 1) isn’t really all that hard to imagine. For some, money is all the motivation needed for voluntary participation. And that’s before we come to the question of involuntary participation.
As for 3), I’m not sure proof of a link to the Russian government is required in order to establish conspiracy to work with foreign (Russian) nationals to influence the election. I don’t really think that you’d need to get to “preponderance of the evidence”, let alone “beyond a reasonable doubt,” that the Russian government was supporting (if not controlling) said foreign actors.
As I may have mentioned, I get a daily news e-mail from the Economist. Today’s included this fascinating bit on a potentially revolutionary technique:
“Organs on a chip” — could make drug research faster, more accurate, etc., etc., etc. And it’s good for us to occasionally take note that technology (whatever the anti-science crowd may thing) does help make things better.
Although, just to demonstrate that the technologists don’t always get it perfect, there this:
https://youtu.be/HUE9mCN7sek
As I may have mentioned, I get a daily news e-mail from the Economist. Today’s included this fascinating bit on a potentially revolutionary technique:
“Organs on a chip” — could make drug research faster, more accurate, etc., etc., etc. And it’s good for us to occasionally take note that technology (whatever the anti-science crowd may thing) does help make things better.
Although, just to demonstrate that the technologists don’t always get it perfect, there this:
https://youtu.be/HUE9mCN7sek
“Organs on a chip”
mmm. canapes.
“Organs on a chip”
mmm. canapes.
I see it more as a “mighty Wurlitzer”…
I see it more as a “mighty Wurlitzer”…
“As for 3), I’m not sure proof of a link to the Russian government is required in order to establish conspiracy to work with foreign (Russian) nationals to influence the election. I don’t really think that you’d need to get to “preponderance of the evidence”, let alone “beyond a reasonable doubt,” that the Russian government was supporting (if not controlling) said foreign actors.”
Unless, of course, there’s a “link” based on unhinged speculation, misreading tweets, and blatantly ignoring “the calendar” that connects to Hillary, in which case YES IT IS A CONSPIRACY, IT HAS BEEN PROVEN!1!!
Motivated “reasoning” is killing us.
“As for 3), I’m not sure proof of a link to the Russian government is required in order to establish conspiracy to work with foreign (Russian) nationals to influence the election. I don’t really think that you’d need to get to “preponderance of the evidence”, let alone “beyond a reasonable doubt,” that the Russian government was supporting (if not controlling) said foreign actors.”
Unless, of course, there’s a “link” based on unhinged speculation, misreading tweets, and blatantly ignoring “the calendar” that connects to Hillary, in which case YES IT IS A CONSPIRACY, IT HAS BEEN PROVEN!1!!
Motivated “reasoning” is killing us.
FFS, the whole “Cruz is a white nationalist” thing was based on a 4chan prank.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/florida-shooting-white-nationalists-415672
humanity cannot survive
FFS, the whole “Cruz is a white nationalist” thing was based on a 4chan prank.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/florida-shooting-white-nationalists-415672
humanity cannot survive
his mandate includes prosecuting any criminal activity that he comes across in the course of his investigation, regardless of whether it is part of the Russian effort.
authorization to do exactly that is granted explicitly in the order that established mueller’s investigation.
look, trump is a crook. not because of any of this, he’s just a crook. no US bank will lend him money. his business partners are felons and russian mafiosi. the folks buying his properties are anonymous offshore cash buyers working through shell companies. he’s been successful sued for fraud under the RICO statute.
he’s a crook, his kids are crooks, the folks running his campaign were and are crooks, thugs, and grifters. there is nothing sound or decent in the man that i can see.
he ran for president and won, so he’s the president. that exposes him to much closer scrutiny than he ever received as a tv show personality and real estate developer. that appears to cause him some distress. too bad.
mueller has been granted a fairly broad scope for investigation. if he wants to get into trump’s finances, he can do so. if he wants to get into any kind of co-operation between trump’s campaign and/or trump personally, and foreign nationals acting illegally to interfere in the election, he can do so, and it doesn’t matter if those folks were acting explicitly on behalf of the russian government or not. although in the case of the internet research center, there’s not much daylight there.
mueller appears to be running an extremely thorough and disciplined investigation, for which we all owe him our thanks. he appears to be taking his time, dotting all of his i’s and crossing all of his t’s, and doing his homework. whatever case or cases he is building, he appears to be doing so deliberately and by the book.
i have no idea where this is all gonna land, and really nobody here does. wherever it goes, that’s where it’s gonna go. if that means trump goes, then it means trump goes, and if it doesn’t, then he doesn’t.
the republic is not going to stand or fall based on whether trump remains in office. trump is just the symptom. the fact that an individual like donald j trump had any chance in hell of attaining the office of POTUS points to much larger problems.
why would anyone vote for that guy? that’s th question that needs answering.
his mandate includes prosecuting any criminal activity that he comes across in the course of his investigation, regardless of whether it is part of the Russian effort.
authorization to do exactly that is granted explicitly in the order that established mueller’s investigation.
look, trump is a crook. not because of any of this, he’s just a crook. no US bank will lend him money. his business partners are felons and russian mafiosi. the folks buying his properties are anonymous offshore cash buyers working through shell companies. he’s been successful sued for fraud under the RICO statute.
he’s a crook, his kids are crooks, the folks running his campaign were and are crooks, thugs, and grifters. there is nothing sound or decent in the man that i can see.
he ran for president and won, so he’s the president. that exposes him to much closer scrutiny than he ever received as a tv show personality and real estate developer. that appears to cause him some distress. too bad.
mueller has been granted a fairly broad scope for investigation. if he wants to get into trump’s finances, he can do so. if he wants to get into any kind of co-operation between trump’s campaign and/or trump personally, and foreign nationals acting illegally to interfere in the election, he can do so, and it doesn’t matter if those folks were acting explicitly on behalf of the russian government or not. although in the case of the internet research center, there’s not much daylight there.
mueller appears to be running an extremely thorough and disciplined investigation, for which we all owe him our thanks. he appears to be taking his time, dotting all of his i’s and crossing all of his t’s, and doing his homework. whatever case or cases he is building, he appears to be doing so deliberately and by the book.
i have no idea where this is all gonna land, and really nobody here does. wherever it goes, that’s where it’s gonna go. if that means trump goes, then it means trump goes, and if it doesn’t, then he doesn’t.
the republic is not going to stand or fall based on whether trump remains in office. trump is just the symptom. the fact that an individual like donald j trump had any chance in hell of attaining the office of POTUS points to much larger problems.
why would anyone vote for that guy? that’s th question that needs answering.
Snarki, what is illegal about collusion IS colluding with a foreign government.
It’s why I recognized you can have a conspiracy to illegally do stuff other than that.
Snarki, what is illegal about collusion IS colluding with a foreign government.
It’s why I recognized you can have a conspiracy to illegally do stuff other than that.
Yes, people who employ fraud and steal identities should be prosecuted. Calling this a huge national security treat is pathetic.
Donald, I’m wondering what this is in reference to. While I am sure there are people calling this a huge security threat, but the stuff I’m reading is talking about how this is Mueller carefully assembling his case. If I missed someone hyperventilating here about the security threat of this, feel free to point them out, but I feel like the commentariat here isn’t prone to that kind of over exaggeration.
Yes, people who employ fraud and steal identities should be prosecuted. Calling this a huge national security treat is pathetic.
Donald, I’m wondering what this is in reference to. While I am sure there are people calling this a huge security threat, but the stuff I’m reading is talking about how this is Mueller carefully assembling his case. If I missed someone hyperventilating here about the security threat of this, feel free to point them out, but I feel like the commentariat here isn’t prone to that kind of over exaggeration.
Chris Hixon
Chris Hixon
Thanks for the names of the slain, lj.
Thanks for the names of the slain, lj.
Nice to see there is one equity market with a little shame:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/russian-stocks-tumble-on-mueller-indictments/ar-BBJdZ8F
Nice to see there is one equity market with a little shame:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/russian-stocks-tumble-on-mueller-indictments/ar-BBJdZ8F
http://www.joemygod.com/2018/02/17/homocon-jim-hoft-chuck-c-johnson-paul-nehlen-others-sued-falsely-naming-teen-killer-driver/
I hope these three appreciate there are governmental institutions and procedures to protect them from savage vengeance.
http://www.joemygod.com/2018/02/17/homocon-jim-hoft-chuck-c-johnson-paul-nehlen-others-sued-falsely-naming-teen-killer-driver/
I hope these three appreciate there are governmental institutions and procedures to protect them from savage vengeance.
Russia has a staff of hundreds whose 40-hour jobs are to troll internet communications. I guarantee you they have substantial presence in basically every well-frequented or influential comments section, including leftish ones.
Russia has a staff of hundreds whose 40-hour jobs are to troll internet communications. I guarantee you they have substantial presence in basically every well-frequented or influential comments section, including leftish ones.
Russia has a staff of hundreds whose 40-hour jobs are to troll internet communications.
What? Governments can create jobs? That can’t be true.
Russia has a staff of hundreds whose 40-hour jobs are to troll internet communications.
What? Governments can create jobs? That can’t be true.
FE: … well-frequented or influential comments section …
Whew!
–TP
FE: … well-frequented or influential comments section …
Whew!
–TP
including leftish ones
yup. i’m pretty sure i saw some on Kevin Drum’s site back in 2016.
including leftish ones
yup. i’m pretty sure i saw some on Kevin Drum’s site back in 2016.
heh. Pete the cat has changed my name. formerly cleek, now ‘“““““““““’.
heh. Pete the cat has changed my name. formerly cleek, now ‘“““““““““’.
what is illegal about collusion IS colluding with a foreign government.
i’m not sure this is correct.
a primer
yeah, it’s politico, but i think it covers the high points pretty well.
you can have a conspiracy to illegally do stuff other than that.
agreed.
I guarantee you they have substantial presence in basically every well-frequented or influential comments section, including leftish ones.
yes, but we have Ken M.
what is illegal about collusion IS colluding with a foreign government.
i’m not sure this is correct.
a primer
yeah, it’s politico, but i think it covers the high points pretty well.
you can have a conspiracy to illegally do stuff other than that.
agreed.
I guarantee you they have substantial presence in basically every well-frequented or influential comments section, including leftish ones.
yes, but we have Ken M.
Gina Montalto
Gina Montalto
@“““““““““
I, for one, welcome petting our Feline Overlords.
@“““““““““
I, for one, welcome petting our Feline Overlords.
Gina Montalto, innocence shot like a dog in her fucking school.
The unshot, the undead, the mentally ill, and the still living and walking and picking-up-the-cash bi-partisan guilty:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/02/18/late-night-horrorshow-open-thread-who-does-the-nra-actually-represent/#more-230191
Gina Montalto, innocence shot like a dog in her fucking school.
The unshot, the undead, the mentally ill, and the still living and walking and picking-up-the-cash bi-partisan guilty:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/02/18/late-night-horrorshow-open-thread-who-does-the-nra-actually-represent/#more-230191
I’m at a loss. I hope North Korea targets me personally for nuclear incineration just for the pleasure of the collateral damage in pigfuck America:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-attacks-congressional-dems-fbi-mcmaster-clinton-obama-schiff-and-more
I’m at a loss. I hope North Korea targets me personally for nuclear incineration just for the pleasure of the collateral damage in pigfuck America:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-attacks-congressional-dems-fbi-mcmaster-clinton-obama-schiff-and-more
Obama could have ordered drone strikes on
gun showsterrorist arms depots, and theNRATerrorist HQ, but he Never. Even. Tried.Deplorable, really. I certainly won’t vote for him again.
Obama could have ordered drone strikes on
gun showsterrorist arms depots, and theNRATerrorist HQ, but he Never. Even. Tried.Deplorable, really. I certainly won’t vote for him again.
In the spirit of He, Trump’s rally shout-out to Wikileaks, I call on hackers everywhere to steal and publish Wayne La Pierre’s emails.
Especially competent hackers are invited to hack into NRA’s membership files and mount disinformation campaigns like sending all Life Members cancellation notices.
I call on cartoonists everywhere to drop the Elephant and start using the Pig as the GOP mascot.
Especially talented cartoonists can probably add a trough without making the icon too complicated.
I call on divorce lawyers everywhere to offer their services to Melania, pro bono.
Especially nefarious divorce lawyers can explore the possibility that Jared is Barron’s biological father.
Hey, we can’t let Putin have all the fun of ratfucking in American politics.
–TP
In the spirit of He, Trump’s rally shout-out to Wikileaks, I call on hackers everywhere to steal and publish Wayne La Pierre’s emails.
Especially competent hackers are invited to hack into NRA’s membership files and mount disinformation campaigns like sending all Life Members cancellation notices.
I call on cartoonists everywhere to drop the Elephant and start using the Pig as the GOP mascot.
Especially talented cartoonists can probably add a trough without making the icon too complicated.
I call on divorce lawyers everywhere to offer their services to Melania, pro bono.
Especially nefarious divorce lawyers can explore the possibility that Jared is Barron’s biological father.
Hey, we can’t let Putin have all the fun of ratfucking in American politics.
–TP
It must be said that, with his tweets this weekend, the President has outdone himself. Even by his standards, these are amazing.
It must be said that, with his tweets this weekend, the President has outdone himself. Even by his standards, these are amazing.
will we be able to survive a President who doesn’t constantly act-out like a petulant teenager?
will we be able to survive a President who doesn’t constantly act-out like a petulant teenager?
…, the President has outdone himself.
He’s a regular Rockin’ Robin.
…, the President has outdone himself.
He’s a regular Rockin’ Robin.
Luke Hoyer
Luke Hoyer
…why, I sometimes tweeted as many as six self-contradictory things before breakfast.
…why, I sometimes tweeted as many as six self-contradictory things before breakfast.
(The Orange Queen)
(The Orange Queen)
Fourth down, inches to go:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-chinese-officials-reportedly-clashed-over-nuclear-football-2018-02-18?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Does China bring it’s nuclear fucking football to Washington D.C state visits?
Fourth down, inches to go:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-chinese-officials-reportedly-clashed-over-nuclear-football-2018-02-18?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Does China bring it’s nuclear fucking football to Washington D.C state visits?
Here’s a thought for us:
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/02/18/letter-hey-hey-nra-how-many-kids-did-you-kill-today/
The past as prologue….
Here’s a thought for us:
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/02/18/letter-hey-hey-nra-how-many-kids-did-you-kill-today/
The past as prologue….
Pace of play: Pitching changes only between half innings.
Pace of play: Pitching changes only between half innings.
Only real way to change (speed up) the pace of play:
Have advertisers tell the networks ( and, indirectly, the teams) that there will be no pay for the parts of games longer than, say 3 hours. They can still play on until the end, and the networks can broadcast if they wish. It’s just that long games won’t result in more revenue. Do that, and the incentive to run long disappears.
Only real way to change (speed up) the pace of play:
Have advertisers tell the networks ( and, indirectly, the teams) that there will be no pay for the parts of games longer than, say 3 hours. They can still play on until the end, and the networks can broadcast if they wish. It’s just that long games won’t result in more revenue. Do that, and the incentive to run long disappears.
If you want to change at some other time you will automatically be charged a run for everyone on base (and they will remain on base), if no one is on base it will cost you one run. RBIs go to whoever is up.
If you want to change at some other time you will automatically be charged a run for everyone on base (and they will remain on base), if no one is on base it will cost you one run. RBIs go to whoever is up.
Do they get more ad revenue for games that run long? It’s always been a mystery to me how paying for an advertisement during a sporting event of indeterminate length/stoppages works.
Do they get more ad revenue for games that run long? It’s always been a mystery to me how paying for an advertisement during a sporting event of indeterminate length/stoppages works.
Since this is an open thread, I have what the kidz call a “bleg”, aimed mostly at the olds around here.
Talk to me about cataract surgery and intra-occular lenses. Have you, or somebody you know well, gone through this? What kind of IOL did you get? How does your vision compare before and after?
In particular, can you read a highway sign at 1000 feet AND also your speedometer, or read your laptop screen AND also the powerpoint slide at the other end of the conference room, with ordinary IOLs? At what range do you need to put on reading glasses? Are adaptive-focus IOLs worthwhile?
Between our “health care” and our “health insurance” systems, straight answers to these questions seem hard to come by.
–TP
Since this is an open thread, I have what the kidz call a “bleg”, aimed mostly at the olds around here.
Talk to me about cataract surgery and intra-occular lenses. Have you, or somebody you know well, gone through this? What kind of IOL did you get? How does your vision compare before and after?
In particular, can you read a highway sign at 1000 feet AND also your speedometer, or read your laptop screen AND also the powerpoint slide at the other end of the conference room, with ordinary IOLs? At what range do you need to put on reading glasses? Are adaptive-focus IOLs worthwhile?
Between our “health care” and our “health insurance” systems, straight answers to these questions seem hard to come by.
–TP
Do they get more ad revenue for games that run long?
I’m pretty sure that the networks do — they get paid per ad, after all. It’s a matter of getting paid more for game-time ads than for whatever analysis show they would follow the game with. And how much the networks make get impacts how much they will bid for rights to broadcast games, i.e. how much the teams get.
Do they get more ad revenue for games that run long?
I’m pretty sure that the networks do — they get paid per ad, after all. It’s a matter of getting paid more for game-time ads than for whatever analysis show they would follow the game with. And how much the networks make get impacts how much they will bid for rights to broadcast games, i.e. how much the teams get.
Tony, I’d love to help. Unfortunately, I’ve still got the same 20/400 vision plus astigmatism at 70 that I had at 15. So no relevant experience to offer. Sorry.
Tony, I’d love to help. Unfortunately, I’ve still got the same 20/400 vision plus astigmatism at 70 that I had at 15. So no relevant experience to offer. Sorry.
And, returning to the original Olympics topic: apparently we have now had a second “wardrobe malfunction” on ice. Perhaps some penalties for poorly designed outfits would help concentrate minds. That or leveling the playing field by having everybody (both men and women, of course) skate au naturel. š
And, returning to the original Olympics topic: apparently we have now had a second “wardrobe malfunction” on ice. Perhaps some penalties for poorly designed outfits would help concentrate minds. That or leveling the playing field by having everybody (both men and women, of course) skate au naturel. š
A general practice is to have IOLs with different focal lengths.
I requested IOLs with the same focal length suitable for computer monitors. š I only need glasses when I go outside. But I have to hold books and magazines at arm’s length and small text is difficult to read. Off the shelf reading glasses don’t fix it.
Unless they’ve improved in recent years, adaptive-focus IOLs generate more complaints and replacement requests than other IOLs. However, there are new lenses that may be available in a year or so that allow the muscles in your eyes to focus the lens in the same way as a normal eye. But, they are expected to cost about $3,600 per lens.
A general practice is to have IOLs with different focal lengths.
I requested IOLs with the same focal length suitable for computer monitors. š I only need glasses when I go outside. But I have to hold books and magazines at arm’s length and small text is difficult to read. Off the shelf reading glasses don’t fix it.
Unless they’ve improved in recent years, adaptive-focus IOLs generate more complaints and replacement requests than other IOLs. However, there are new lenses that may be available in a year or so that allow the muscles in your eyes to focus the lens in the same way as a normal eye. But, they are expected to cost about $3,600 per lens.
Pace of play: Pitching changes only between half innings.
You are a brutal person.
Pace of play, NFL: Any game goes over the limit, the league forfeits its anti-trust exemption.
Pace of play: Pitching changes only between half innings.
You are a brutal person.
Pace of play, NFL: Any game goes over the limit, the league forfeits its anti-trust exemption.
Any game goes over the limit, the league updates all DVRs with the new airing times of any preempted shows.
Any game goes over the limit, the league updates all DVRs with the new airing times of any preempted shows.
Tony,
I am just coming off cataract replacement. I was terribly near-sighted all my life, wearing coke bottle glasses since the 4th grade. Driving at night (esp. when raining) was becoming a real challenge. Optometrist said it was “just a matter of time”, and the sooner the better as the natural lens becomes more brittle with time.
So after an incident where I nearly ran over a pedestrian who absurdly took the risk of standing in the middle of an unlighted residential intersection on a dark morning, I decided the time had come.
Nobody told me squat about IOL’s. I must have missed something.
What do I see now? Pretty much 20/20 at a distance. Far vision seemed ‘funny’ at first, but with healing, (and getting both eyes “on line”) I am more used to it. Colors are much more vibrant (LSD lite), and I really notice light reflections on newer automobile coachwork (never paid any attention prior).
I can now comfortably drive under any conditions.
My vision gets blurry starting about 4 ft. away, and gets worse at close range. Since I’m still on the eye drops, I get by at work with off the shelf reading glasses…OK for computer, a bit more difficult wrt reading printed matter like books/newspapers/shopping lists.
I’ll have to get some kind of prescription glasses, but the exam is not scheduled until late March.
All in all….favorable. I figure in a couple months I shall stop raising my hand to “adjust” my glasses.
Tony,
I am just coming off cataract replacement. I was terribly near-sighted all my life, wearing coke bottle glasses since the 4th grade. Driving at night (esp. when raining) was becoming a real challenge. Optometrist said it was “just a matter of time”, and the sooner the better as the natural lens becomes more brittle with time.
So after an incident where I nearly ran over a pedestrian who absurdly took the risk of standing in the middle of an unlighted residential intersection on a dark morning, I decided the time had come.
Nobody told me squat about IOL’s. I must have missed something.
What do I see now? Pretty much 20/20 at a distance. Far vision seemed ‘funny’ at first, but with healing, (and getting both eyes “on line”) I am more used to it. Colors are much more vibrant (LSD lite), and I really notice light reflections on newer automobile coachwork (never paid any attention prior).
I can now comfortably drive under any conditions.
My vision gets blurry starting about 4 ft. away, and gets worse at close range. Since I’m still on the eye drops, I get by at work with off the shelf reading glasses…OK for computer, a bit more difficult wrt reading printed matter like books/newspapers/shopping lists.
I’ll have to get some kind of prescription glasses, but the exam is not scheduled until late March.
All in all….favorable. I figure in a couple months I shall stop raising my hand to “adjust” my glasses.
TP — I’ve asked a friend of mine who has had cataract surgery, and lenses implanted; don’t know if he’ll even reply, we don’t correspond via email very often, but I’ll pass along anything he says.
TP — I’ve asked a friend of mine who has had cataract surgery, and lenses implanted; don’t know if he’ll even reply, we don’t correspond via email very often, but I’ll pass along anything he says.
Other considerations:
1. Can now swim and see simultaneously!
2. Will be able to wear off the shelf sun glasses (i.e., not prescription)…can’t wait to try!
3. When outdoors, will not go blind due to snow and/or rain or fogged lenses.
4. No longer have to fumble for eyeglasses before arising from bed.
Other considerations:
1. Can now swim and see simultaneously!
2. Will be able to wear off the shelf sun glasses (i.e., not prescription)…can’t wait to try!
3. When outdoors, will not go blind due to snow and/or rain or fogged lenses.
4. No longer have to fumble for eyeglasses before arising from bed.
Any game goes over the limit, the league updates all DVRs with the new airing times of any preempted shows.
League commissioner has to watch ‘Heidi’ on repeat loop for 24 hours straight.
Any game goes over the limit, the league updates all DVRs with the new airing times of any preempted shows.
League commissioner has to watch ‘Heidi’ on repeat loop for 24 hours straight.
pace of play…golf. HAHAHAHAHAHA.
pace of play…golf. HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Cara Loughran
Cara Loughran
Perhaps a tldr, but I had a detached retina, and to get at it, they removed the lens and replaced it. They asked if I wanted to have my vision in that eye remain the same or if I wanted some correction. I opted for correction, which may have been a mistake, I feel like I lost about 10-20 meters off my vision because the two eyes have not totally synched up yet. Despite having very poor vision, I could recognize my students far enough away (and note that they were my students before they realized it was me) that by the time they got up to me, I could remember their name. The distance I have lost means that I can’t pull up their name. This has a knock on effect, my conversations with them end up being ‘anata dare desuka?’ (in Japanese, who the hell are you?) don’t exchange as much information and am therefore less likely to make connections.
My brother, on the other hand, had both lenses replaced for cataracts and he’s over the moon. He’s into hunting and he says that he can see so much more clearly now.
Another thing was that lights are very bright now, so I had to spend some money on getting much better sunglasses, and because I still had my glasses, they were clip-ons, but if you don’t need glasses, you may want to get some good polarized sunglasses as they can cut glare quite a bit.
I also notice the more vibrant colors and have to be careful, cause I’ll now catch some sort of color mirage out of my peripheral vision if I turn my head quickly, especially when it is dark. I also really really don’t like driving at night when it is raining.
I think the count said it before: getting old is not for sissies…
Perhaps a tldr, but I had a detached retina, and to get at it, they removed the lens and replaced it. They asked if I wanted to have my vision in that eye remain the same or if I wanted some correction. I opted for correction, which may have been a mistake, I feel like I lost about 10-20 meters off my vision because the two eyes have not totally synched up yet. Despite having very poor vision, I could recognize my students far enough away (and note that they were my students before they realized it was me) that by the time they got up to me, I could remember their name. The distance I have lost means that I can’t pull up their name. This has a knock on effect, my conversations with them end up being ‘anata dare desuka?’ (in Japanese, who the hell are you?) don’t exchange as much information and am therefore less likely to make connections.
My brother, on the other hand, had both lenses replaced for cataracts and he’s over the moon. He’s into hunting and he says that he can see so much more clearly now.
Another thing was that lights are very bright now, so I had to spend some money on getting much better sunglasses, and because I still had my glasses, they were clip-ons, but if you don’t need glasses, you may want to get some good polarized sunglasses as they can cut glare quite a bit.
I also notice the more vibrant colors and have to be careful, cause I’ll now catch some sort of color mirage out of my peripheral vision if I turn my head quickly, especially when it is dark. I also really really don’t like driving at night when it is raining.
I think the count said it before: getting old is not for sissies…
In fairness it must be said that, when it comes to (slow) pace of play, baseball isn’t even in competition compared to cricket.
In fairness it must be said that, when it comes to (slow) pace of play, baseball isn’t even in competition compared to cricket.
I’ve nothing really to complain about … yet …as far as aging (I do have eye story, but later), but at some point I will move on from the Bette Davis rue about getting getting old and sissies and instead quote Philip Roth, from his novel “Everyman”:
“Old age isn’t a battle; old age is a massacre.”
I’ve nothing really to complain about … yet …as far as aging (I do have eye story, but later), but at some point I will move on from the Bette Davis rue about getting getting old and sissies and instead quote Philip Roth, from his novel “Everyman”:
“Old age isn’t a battle; old age is a massacre.”
OLD AGE IS A DEAD LOSER.
OLD AGE IS A DEAD LOSER.
one of the things i notice about getting older is that the various doctors and other health professionals i see seem far more blase about whatever ailment or condition i show up with.
hey doc, i have X Y or Z going on.
oh really? wait… how old are you now?
61.
oh yeah, well stuff happens at that age.
my favorite one was when i got this weird lipoma on my shoulder. i’ve probably told this story before, hopefully not more than two or three times.
i have a lipoma on my shoulder. i go to see the doc. the doc looks at it from a couple of angles, pokes it with his finger, moves it around a little bit, ponders all of this.
i say, “well, what do you think?”
doc says, “lipoma. it’s along for the ride”.
bada-boom-crash! he’ll be here all week. try the veal.
nothing like being a punch line for your doc, the amateur humorist.
š
one of the things i notice about getting older is that the various doctors and other health professionals i see seem far more blase about whatever ailment or condition i show up with.
hey doc, i have X Y or Z going on.
oh really? wait… how old are you now?
61.
oh yeah, well stuff happens at that age.
my favorite one was when i got this weird lipoma on my shoulder. i’ve probably told this story before, hopefully not more than two or three times.
i have a lipoma on my shoulder. i go to see the doc. the doc looks at it from a couple of angles, pokes it with his finger, moves it around a little bit, ponders all of this.
i say, “well, what do you think?”
doc says, “lipoma. it’s along for the ride”.
bada-boom-crash! he’ll be here all week. try the veal.
nothing like being a punch line for your doc, the amateur humorist.
š
on the eyesight front, i apparently have migraine, but without the headache. the way this presents itself is in a variety of visual distortions.
scotoma, which is sort like having a scintillating little wiggly worm squirming around in your field of vision.
odd blank spots in my field of vision, which last about a half second. just… grey areas, nothing there. happens especially when it’s bright out, or if i move my head or my eyes rapidly.
once in a great while, the classic migraine wavy lines in the periphery of my field of vision, even more occasionally narrowing my field of vision to a small little dot. or, on one occasion, just waves.
it’s all kind of trippy, but as long as i don’t get the headaches, it’s all good as far as I’m concerned. just another bit of bodily weirdness, along for the ride.
if it kept me from driving, that would be a problem. so far, so good.
on the eyesight front, i apparently have migraine, but without the headache. the way this presents itself is in a variety of visual distortions.
scotoma, which is sort like having a scintillating little wiggly worm squirming around in your field of vision.
odd blank spots in my field of vision, which last about a half second. just… grey areas, nothing there. happens especially when it’s bright out, or if i move my head or my eyes rapidly.
once in a great while, the classic migraine wavy lines in the periphery of my field of vision, even more occasionally narrowing my field of vision to a small little dot. or, on one occasion, just waves.
it’s all kind of trippy, but as long as i don’t get the headaches, it’s all good as far as I’m concerned. just another bit of bodily weirdness, along for the ride.
if it kept me from driving, that would be a problem. so far, so good.
“Old age isn’t a battle; old age is a massacre.”
As Grandpa used to say, I don’t expect to get out of this alive. But I’m determined to get old with some amount of grace.
“Old age isn’t a battle; old age is a massacre.”
As Grandpa used to say, I don’t expect to get out of this alive. But I’m determined to get old with some amount of grace.
Regarding baseball and time, the only interval I want shortened is the wintry one between the last out of the World Series and the first day of spring training.
Regarding baseball and time, the only interval I want shortened is the wintry one between the last out of the World Series and the first day of spring training.
oh really? wait… how old are you now?
61.
Being 61 is just gross. But I kind of like it.
oh really? wait… how old are you now?
61.
Being 61 is just gross. But I kind of like it.
Only way to cut the interval between the end of the World Series and the start of spring training: drop play from 6 days a week to 5 during the season. Which doesn’t sound all that great to me. YMMV
Only way to cut the interval between the end of the World Series and the start of spring training: drop play from 6 days a week to 5 during the season. Which doesn’t sound all that great to me. YMMV
If ever I was tempted by “optional” eye surgery (Lasik, whatever), I’d first chat with some amateur astronomers to see what they have to say about it.
I can’t think of any other group that would bring such intense interest in the subject, technical knowledge, and obsession in good results.
If ever I was tempted by “optional” eye surgery (Lasik, whatever), I’d first chat with some amateur astronomers to see what they have to say about it.
I can’t think of any other group that would bring such intense interest in the subject, technical knowledge, and obsession in good results.
Alaina Petty
Alaina Petty
But I’m determined to get old with some amount of grace.
One of the quotes I put on the back of my dad’s funeral card:
“The idea is to die young as late as possible.”
But I’m determined to get old with some amount of grace.
One of the quotes I put on the back of my dad’s funeral card:
“The idea is to die young as late as possible.”
“The idea is to die young as late as possible.”
I wrote that down in my little moleskin quote book, for later stealing. Maybe I’ll include it in the eulogy at my wake, which I plan to give in person.
“one of the things i notice about getting older is that the various doctors and other health professionals i see seem far more blase about whatever ailment or condition i show up with.”
I’ve noticed that too. Why, it’s a creeping death panel, if you ask me.
“When does it hurt?” the doctor asks me.
“When I hit the ground during head-first slides flat out into third base.”
A pause, as he removes the stethoscope ear buds from his earholes, rolls his eyes ever so slightly, and then says “So, don’t do that,” but with the slight inflection of a question, the real subtextual question being “Whaddaya, NUTS?”
What I really hate is when I call to make an appointment with my doctor and the voice on the other end of the line says that HE died.
It’s like finding out your long-time car mechanic died when the brakes in his car failed and he went thru the guard rail into the ravine.
Now there is a subject for bemusement, of the Greek dramatist kind.
“The idea is to die young as late as possible.”
I wrote that down in my little moleskin quote book, for later stealing. Maybe I’ll include it in the eulogy at my wake, which I plan to give in person.
“one of the things i notice about getting older is that the various doctors and other health professionals i see seem far more blase about whatever ailment or condition i show up with.”
I’ve noticed that too. Why, it’s a creeping death panel, if you ask me.
“When does it hurt?” the doctor asks me.
“When I hit the ground during head-first slides flat out into third base.”
A pause, as he removes the stethoscope ear buds from his earholes, rolls his eyes ever so slightly, and then says “So, don’t do that,” but with the slight inflection of a question, the real subtextual question being “Whaddaya, NUTS?”
What I really hate is when I call to make an appointment with my doctor and the voice on the other end of the line says that HE died.
It’s like finding out your long-time car mechanic died when the brakes in his car failed and he went thru the guard rail into the ravine.
Now there is a subject for bemusement, of the Greek dramatist kind.
I wish Alaina Petty could have lived to my age to experience my meager complaints.
A lady showed up at Paul Ryan’s fundraiser in Deathtown, Florida the other day and got off a few (automatic, by this time) verbal rounds at him for his rather tasteless, even by contemporary republican conservative standards, attempt to pickpocket the spare change out of the pockets of the corpses of the kids and their teachers and coaches still freshly bleeding out on mortuary slabs, and security was quick to converge on the lady and deny her First Amendment rights, despite a well regulated verbal statement, hers, being necessary to the security of a free state, and was removed bodily from the premises, unlike any number of young white conservative men waving around implements of mass destruction are treated.
I guess that’ll teach her which Amendment will get her message thru to the likes of vermin Ryan.
I wish Alaina Petty could have lived to my age to experience my meager complaints.
A lady showed up at Paul Ryan’s fundraiser in Deathtown, Florida the other day and got off a few (automatic, by this time) verbal rounds at him for his rather tasteless, even by contemporary republican conservative standards, attempt to pickpocket the spare change out of the pockets of the corpses of the kids and their teachers and coaches still freshly bleeding out on mortuary slabs, and security was quick to converge on the lady and deny her First Amendment rights, despite a well regulated verbal statement, hers, being necessary to the security of a free state, and was removed bodily from the premises, unlike any number of young white conservative men waving around implements of mass destruction are treated.
I guess that’ll teach her which Amendment will get her message thru to the likes of vermin Ryan.
“What I really hate is when I call to make an appointment with my doctor and the voice on the other end of the line says that HE died.”
I had this experience, my cardiologist died of heart attack while travelling in Italy. My appointment was cancelled.
“What I really hate is when I call to make an appointment with my doctor and the voice on the other end of the line says that HE died.”
I had this experience, my cardiologist died of heart attack while travelling in Italy. My appointment was cancelled.
“When I hit the ground during head-first slides flat out into third base.”
“So, don’t do that,”
When I was 45, I was diagnosed with low bone density. After innumerable increasingly exotic blood tests, and two more density scans at 18-month intervals, the specialist’s conclusion was that it was just the way I was. When I asked if he had any specific advice, he told me, “Don’t take up pro football as a second career.”
“When I hit the ground during head-first slides flat out into third base.”
“So, don’t do that,”
When I was 45, I was diagnosed with low bone density. After innumerable increasingly exotic blood tests, and two more density scans at 18-month intervals, the specialist’s conclusion was that it was just the way I was. When I asked if he had any specific advice, he told me, “Don’t take up pro football as a second career.”
It’s too early to talk about it.
Not only that, but stop talking so eloquently about it at your age.
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2018/02/20/pro-trump-media-launch-attacks-student-survivors-florida-school-shooting/219426
It’s too late to talk about it.
It’s too early to talk about it.
Not only that, but stop talking so eloquently about it at your age.
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2018/02/20/pro-trump-media-launch-attacks-student-survivors-florida-school-shooting/219426
It’s too late to talk about it.
My appointment was cancelled.
That seems drastic.
My appointment was cancelled.
That seems drastic.
I’ll never forget the look on dumbass Jack Kingston’s face the night years ago when it dawned on him, on air, that Steven Colbert’s conservative persona was schtickt aimed at his … Kingston’s nuts:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/02/20/cnns-jack-kingston-i-have-hard-time-believing-florida-school-shooting-survivors-can-organize-rally/219427
I was like when the last synapse in a one-celled brain goes dark.
It’s not too late for the media to stop talking to Kingston and company altogether.
I’ll never forget the look on dumbass Jack Kingston’s face the night years ago when it dawned on him, on air, that Steven Colbert’s conservative persona was schtickt aimed at his … Kingston’s nuts:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/02/20/cnns-jack-kingston-i-have-hard-time-believing-florida-school-shooting-survivors-can-organize-rally/219427
I was like when the last synapse in a one-celled brain goes dark.
It’s not too late for the media to stop talking to Kingston and company altogether.
I(t) as like …
“My appointment was cancelled.”
“That seems drastic.”
Yeah, talk about limited networks.
I(t) as like …
“My appointment was cancelled.”
“That seems drastic.”
Yeah, talk about limited networks.
Smells like teen spirit:
http://juanitajean.com/we-call-b-s/
We don’t need to get rid of the Second Amendment:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/19/1742306/-Cheers-and-Jeers-Monday
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/02/second-amendment-not-u-s-doesnt-good-gun-control-policy
http://samuel-warde.com/2016/06/family-man-invented-ar-15-m-16-says-horrified/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-awesome-power-of-the-firearm/
The only thing wrong with the Second Amendment is that the wrong people are being shot dead.
That, and the National Rifle Association and the Republican Party are legal entities on American soil.
Smells like teen spirit:
http://juanitajean.com/we-call-b-s/
We don’t need to get rid of the Second Amendment:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/19/1742306/-Cheers-and-Jeers-Monday
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/02/second-amendment-not-u-s-doesnt-good-gun-control-policy
http://samuel-warde.com/2016/06/family-man-invented-ar-15-m-16-says-horrified/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-awesome-power-of-the-firearm/
The only thing wrong with the Second Amendment is that the wrong people are being shot dead.
That, and the National Rifle Association and the Republican Party are legal entities on American soil.
“When does it hurt?” the doctor asks me.
“When I hit the ground during head-first slides flat out into third base.”
So riddle me this: Why slide head first? It seems like a normal slide would get the same job done, without leaving you chewing dirt off the infield. Am I missing some benefit of it?
“When does it hurt?” the doctor asks me.
“When I hit the ground during head-first slides flat out into third base.”
So riddle me this: Why slide head first? It seems like a normal slide would get the same job done, without leaving you chewing dirt off the infield. Am I missing some benefit of it?
One of the core skills in modern management: supply chain management. And then there’s this:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/19/kfc-uk-closed-chicken-shortage-fash-food-contract-delivery-dhl
Oops!
One of the core skills in modern management: supply chain management. And then there’s this:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/19/kfc-uk-closed-chicken-shortage-fash-food-contract-delivery-dhl
Oops!
I’ve always done it, so habit.
Any decent coach would talk me out of it. Someone run out and find me a decent coach.
But mainly because my feet-first sliding technique has always been wanting.
I’d rather break a finger than an ankle or jam a knee. I’m still blessed with the speed of a human much younger than I, so I’m coming in fast.
Plus, strategically, I find it easier to steer my slide around the tag while keeping a hand on the base during those close shaves.
I do it maybe three to five times a year anymore. Mostly in softball where there are more close plays on thrown from the outfield.
The occasion doesn’t arise much in my now senior baseball league very often because stealing bases is prohibited on account of an injury can lead straight to the eternally disabled list.
Except for those triples in the gap.
Funny thing, too, in the amateur world, the amateur umpires are often so taken aback by the head first slide, whether in softball leagues where the much younger guys don’t bother with it, or in the older guy baseball league … that I still dare to do it … that they give me the benefit of the doubt and call me safe, thinking maybe if he cares THAT much about it, give him the base.
I don’t know, if my cup isn’t full of infield dirt by the end of the game, I figure I must not have been trying hard enough.
I’ve always done it, so habit.
Any decent coach would talk me out of it. Someone run out and find me a decent coach.
But mainly because my feet-first sliding technique has always been wanting.
I’d rather break a finger than an ankle or jam a knee. I’m still blessed with the speed of a human much younger than I, so I’m coming in fast.
Plus, strategically, I find it easier to steer my slide around the tag while keeping a hand on the base during those close shaves.
I do it maybe three to five times a year anymore. Mostly in softball where there are more close plays on thrown from the outfield.
The occasion doesn’t arise much in my now senior baseball league very often because stealing bases is prohibited on account of an injury can lead straight to the eternally disabled list.
Except for those triples in the gap.
Funny thing, too, in the amateur world, the amateur umpires are often so taken aback by the head first slide, whether in softball leagues where the much younger guys don’t bother with it, or in the older guy baseball league … that I still dare to do it … that they give me the benefit of the doubt and call me safe, thinking maybe if he cares THAT much about it, give him the base.
I don’t know, if my cup isn’t full of infield dirt by the end of the game, I figure I must not have been trying hard enough.
Nigel, GftNC, etc. I would appreciate a little local knowledge. I realize that the Sun is a tabloid, but I have no feel for whether it is one on the level of the New York Post (sensationalized, but generally not totally adrift from reality) or the National Inquirer (which did “alternative facts” long before the term was invented).
The reason I ask is this:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5597516/jeremy-corbyn-paid-communist-spy-czech-republic-labour/
In other times, I would have severe doubts. But considering what we have been seeing here of late….
Nigel, GftNC, etc. I would appreciate a little local knowledge. I realize that the Sun is a tabloid, but I have no feel for whether it is one on the level of the New York Post (sensationalized, but generally not totally adrift from reality) or the National Inquirer (which did “alternative facts” long before the term was invented).
The reason I ask is this:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5597516/jeremy-corbyn-paid-communist-spy-czech-republic-labour/
In other times, I would have severe doubts. But considering what we have been seeing here of late….
Hmmm. Well, I bow to no-one in my contempt for the Sun and other Murdoch mass-market tabloids (and non-Murdoch ones too, like the Daily Mail – a true force for bad in the UK), but I have to say that in my opinion, using your dichotomy, it is closer to the New York Post than to the Enquirer. Which is not to say that it isn’t capable of publishing bullshit, jingoistic, rightwing rubbish, but still I think it has a sense of itself as a newspaper, and one which believes in “facts” as opposed to “alternative facts”. Regarding the Corbyn story, we will have to wait and see. It may not be true, but on the other hand would not entirely surprise me.
Hmmm. Well, I bow to no-one in my contempt for the Sun and other Murdoch mass-market tabloids (and non-Murdoch ones too, like the Daily Mail – a true force for bad in the UK), but I have to say that in my opinion, using your dichotomy, it is closer to the New York Post than to the Enquirer. Which is not to say that it isn’t capable of publishing bullshit, jingoistic, rightwing rubbish, but still I think it has a sense of itself as a newspaper, and one which believes in “facts” as opposed to “alternative facts”. Regarding the Corbyn story, we will have to wait and see. It may not be true, but on the other hand would not entirely surprise me.
The kids, those that remain unshot, are alright:
“Nicole
@NicoleK8686
The same people that said 13 and 14 year olds were perfectly mature enough to date Roy Moore are now saying 17 and 18 year olds are too immature to have opinions on gun control.”
I see no inconsistency in those two views commonly held by white conservative cracker types:
“You no never mind tellin me what you think about my weapons little missy. Why don’t you bring that purty little mouth over here and admire my gun instead.”
The kids, those that remain unshot, are alright:
“Nicole
@NicoleK8686
The same people that said 13 and 14 year olds were perfectly mature enough to date Roy Moore are now saying 17 and 18 year olds are too immature to have opinions on gun control.”
I see no inconsistency in those two views commonly held by white conservative cracker types:
“You no never mind tellin me what you think about my weapons little missy. Why don’t you bring that purty little mouth over here and admire my gun instead.”
17 and 18 year olds may be too immature to have opinions on gun control. But, obviously, not to immature to buy by a gun.
(hsh, better?)
17 and 18 year olds may be too immature to have opinions on gun control. But, obviously, not to immature to buy by a gun.
(hsh, better?)
???
???
Somehow Pierce managed to cram crypto-religious rod worshippers, David Brooks asking us to buy the aforementioned rod worshipping snowflakes a cookie, and much more into one column:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a18358905/parkland-shooting-conspiracies-lies/
Somehow Pierce managed to cram crypto-religious rod worshippers, David Brooks asking us to buy the aforementioned rod worshipping snowflakes a cookie, and much more into one column:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a18358905/parkland-shooting-conspiracies-lies/
The NRA gettin a little sceared:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/nra-rallies-members-kill-the-nra-billboard-kentucky
Gosh, what are they going to do? Buy more guns?
Maybe kill some more legitimate human beings who exercise their First Amendment rights?
It’s interesting, ain’t it, that this recent school shooting and that graffiteed billboard all occurred just as the murderous gun manufacturers were reporting declining gun sales on account of there being no more black people in the White House, ‘cept when Ben Carson goes over there to have his bag of cotton weighed.
False flags all over the place.
The NRA gettin a little sceared:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/nra-rallies-members-kill-the-nra-billboard-kentucky
Gosh, what are they going to do? Buy more guns?
Maybe kill some more legitimate human beings who exercise their First Amendment rights?
It’s interesting, ain’t it, that this recent school shooting and that graffiteed billboard all occurred just as the murderous gun manufacturers were reporting declining gun sales on account of there being no more black people in the White House, ‘cept when Ben Carson goes over there to have his bag of cotton weighed.
False flags all over the place.
I’m proud of myself that I can’t get as creatively low and imaginatively depraved as the walking, talking republican conservative zombies face-chewing the country:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/far-right-spreads-conspiracy-theories-parkland-students-fronts-anti-gun-groups
I’m proud of myself that I can’t get as creatively low and imaginatively depraved as the walking, talking republican conservative zombies face-chewing the country:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/far-right-spreads-conspiracy-theories-parkland-students-fronts-anti-gun-groups
Alex Schachter
Alex Schachter
oh yeah, well stuff happens at that age.
sounds like the NHS, except they show that attitude towards everyone starting at birth:
unless you have an obvious wound or something immediatelt life threatening, they will likely give you a pat on the back and send you home – also, the concept of preventatives medicine doesn’t seem to exist in their books
(I say that as someone who likes the NHS, well, at least the idea of it…)
re age, I’ve always liked this quote:
“Youth would be an ideal state if it came a little later in life.” H H Asquith
oh yeah, well stuff happens at that age.
sounds like the NHS, except they show that attitude towards everyone starting at birth:
unless you have an obvious wound or something immediatelt life threatening, they will likely give you a pat on the back and send you home – also, the concept of preventatives medicine doesn’t seem to exist in their books
(I say that as someone who likes the NHS, well, at least the idea of it…)
re age, I’ve always liked this quote:
“Youth would be an ideal state if it came a little later in life.” H H Asquith
The marketing departments for knife manufacturers are looking at these trends very carefully, noting that the elementary and high school markets seem to be pretty crowded with competition from the gun manufacturers, but middle schools and geriatric centers around the country seem to be relatively untapped as targets.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/video/younger-dynamic-pushing-ar-15-sales-higher-after-parkland-massacre/vi-BBJnczL
It could be that a marketing plan targeting the the one-at-a-time stabber, sort of a heritage, organic, craftsman type of sustainable murderer could be the lever that takes market share from these automated, one-size-fits-all, mass manufactured murders that currently dominate the market.
Wall Street analysts question this approach, citing the reduction in productivity and efficiency that might result if less deadly technologies come to the fore, thus cutting into margins.
And then there is the matter of increasing the mass murder labor force, with might lead to inflation.
Why have one hundred angry white guys do what nine angry white guys and one American-born Muslim could with less effort and lower overshithead.
The marketing departments for knife manufacturers are looking at these trends very carefully, noting that the elementary and high school markets seem to be pretty crowded with competition from the gun manufacturers, but middle schools and geriatric centers around the country seem to be relatively untapped as targets.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/video/younger-dynamic-pushing-ar-15-sales-higher-after-parkland-massacre/vi-BBJnczL
It could be that a marketing plan targeting the the one-at-a-time stabber, sort of a heritage, organic, craftsman type of sustainable murderer could be the lever that takes market share from these automated, one-size-fits-all, mass manufactured murders that currently dominate the market.
Wall Street analysts question this approach, citing the reduction in productivity and efficiency that might result if less deadly technologies come to the fore, thus cutting into margins.
And then there is the matter of increasing the mass murder labor force, with might lead to inflation.
Why have one hundred angry white guys do what nine angry white guys and one American-born Muslim could with less effort and lower overshithead.
“…the the one-at-a-time stabber, sort of a heritage, organic, small-batch, artesanal craftsman type of sustainable murderer”
Anyone who stabs McArdle should rub some Pink Himalayan Salt in the wound.
“…the the one-at-a-time stabber, sort of a heritage, organic, small-batch, artesanal craftsman type of sustainable murderer”
Anyone who stabs McArdle should rub some Pink Himalayan Salt in the wound.
sort of a heritage, organic, craftsman type of sustainable murderer
if you make it out of vinyl, the hipsters will be all over it.
sort of a heritage, organic, craftsman type of sustainable murderer
if you make it out of vinyl, the hipsters will be all over it.
First of all, “…the the one-at-a-time stabber, sort of a heritage, organic, small-batch, artisanal craftsman type of sustainable murderer” made my day.
Anyone else a little skeeved out at the PA Supreme Court drawing the Congressional Districts?
I spent personal time canvassing and my own money helping get the Fla anti-gerrymandering amendment across the line, but the PA court seems to be overreaching here to me.
First of all, “…the the one-at-a-time stabber, sort of a heritage, organic, small-batch, artisanal craftsman type of sustainable murderer” made my day.
Anyone else a little skeeved out at the PA Supreme Court drawing the Congressional Districts?
I spent personal time canvassing and my own money helping get the Fla anti-gerrymandering amendment across the line, but the PA court seems to be overreaching here to me.
Tony,
I had cataract surgery a couple of years ago. Great thing. email me and if you want the name of my ophthamologist.
A few things:
The card they gave me says the IOL is made by Abbott and is a model ZCB00, with radio, heater, and automatic transmission. I lost the card for the other eye but presume it is the same.
Apparently this is some kind of premium lens, but it is not the kind that gives you good vision both near and far. I still need glasses to read, but they are off-the shelf cheapies. My guy said he could do the other kind but recommended against it, because of the risk of side effect, which, IIRC, are more common in men than women.
The lens provides UV protection, so I need sunglasses only for glare, and to set off my stunning good looks.
I was told not to get the thing wet for a while, so I got an inexpensive scuba mask for showering. Worked fine.
One interesting thing. My kitchen cabinets are white. When I looked at them after the surgery they had turned sort of blue, as many other white objects had. Cataracts are sort of brown or yellow. They tint everything. Your brain makes the adjustment when it knows what’s up. So the cabinet sends “white,” and the cataract turns that into “yellowish.” The brain, smarter than the cataract, says, “I know the damn things are white, so I’m adjusting the message.”
You still get the adjustment after the surgery, until the brain catches on that the cataract is gone, when the shift towards blue goes away.
The color effects of cataracts affected Monet, whose colors show the gradual effect as he aged. He had cataract surgery at age 82, and was displeased by the change in perceived colors.
(My ophthamologist, besides doing good work, likes to talk about this stuff.)
Tony,
I had cataract surgery a couple of years ago. Great thing. email me and if you want the name of my ophthamologist.
A few things:
The card they gave me says the IOL is made by Abbott and is a model ZCB00, with radio, heater, and automatic transmission. I lost the card for the other eye but presume it is the same.
Apparently this is some kind of premium lens, but it is not the kind that gives you good vision both near and far. I still need glasses to read, but they are off-the shelf cheapies. My guy said he could do the other kind but recommended against it, because of the risk of side effect, which, IIRC, are more common in men than women.
The lens provides UV protection, so I need sunglasses only for glare, and to set off my stunning good looks.
I was told not to get the thing wet for a while, so I got an inexpensive scuba mask for showering. Worked fine.
One interesting thing. My kitchen cabinets are white. When I looked at them after the surgery they had turned sort of blue, as many other white objects had. Cataracts are sort of brown or yellow. They tint everything. Your brain makes the adjustment when it knows what’s up. So the cabinet sends “white,” and the cataract turns that into “yellowish.” The brain, smarter than the cataract, says, “I know the damn things are white, so I’m adjusting the message.”
You still get the adjustment after the surgery, until the brain catches on that the cataract is gone, when the shift towards blue goes away.
The color effects of cataracts affected Monet, whose colors show the gradual effect as he aged. He had cataract surgery at age 82, and was displeased by the change in perceived colors.
(My ophthamologist, besides doing good work, likes to talk about this stuff.)
the PA court seems to be overreaching here to me.
Well, I think they are on pretty solid ground in vacating the previous districts. Admittedly, I’m not an expert on the Pennsylvania state constitution, but presumably they are. (And if the Republicans couldn’t convince Scalia to even bother to ask the other justices before telling them to pound sand, likely the PA court got it right.)
At that point, telling the legislators and governor to come up with something better made sense. Which they couldn’t manage to agree on — that is, somebody (it can be argued later just who) wanted to gerrymander more than the other could tolerate. At that point, getting an expert to draw the lines doesn’t seem unreasonable. And it’s not like the court failed to warn the legislators that they would do so if necessary.
So no, not seeing a great deal of overreach. What would you have them do instead? Allow elections to go forward using districts that they have already ruled were unacceptable? Or what?
the PA court seems to be overreaching here to me.
Well, I think they are on pretty solid ground in vacating the previous districts. Admittedly, I’m not an expert on the Pennsylvania state constitution, but presumably they are. (And if the Republicans couldn’t convince Scalia to even bother to ask the other justices before telling them to pound sand, likely the PA court got it right.)
At that point, telling the legislators and governor to come up with something better made sense. Which they couldn’t manage to agree on — that is, somebody (it can be argued later just who) wanted to gerrymander more than the other could tolerate. At that point, getting an expert to draw the lines doesn’t seem unreasonable. And it’s not like the court failed to warn the legislators that they would do so if necessary.
So no, not seeing a great deal of overreach. What would you have them do instead? Allow elections to go forward using districts that they have already ruled were unacceptable? Or what?
I think the PASC map is slightly gerrymandered in favor of Dems. That sends a bad signal.
I think the PASC map is slightly gerrymandered in favor of Dems. That sends a bad signal.
Why doesn’t the USA embrace democracy and take control of electoral boundaries out of the hands of politicians?
Why doesn’t the USA embrace democracy and take control of electoral boundaries out of the hands of politicians?
“The color effects of cataracts affected Monet, whose colors show the gradual effect as he aged. He had cataract surgery at age 82, and was displeased by the change in perceived colors.”
Is that why his paintings are so blurry?
I wasn’t going to tell my eye story, but it may be that I suffered from a cataract at a younger age than anyone here, or at least I hope so for all your sakes.
I was 11 years old. In the backyard, playing catch with a younger brother with, inevitably, a baseball. I had my back to the woods that took up the back half acre or so of my parents’ property and my brother overthrew me and the ball sailed into the ravine, rolling to the creek below.
I plunged after it and somewhere along the way a tree branch snapped back into my face and, as it turned out, a twig went directly threw the center of my left eyeball and just as quickly snapped back out.
I thought at first, as did my very attentive mother, that the offending branch had merely scratched my eye. She couldn’t tell much with her naked eye. A couple of hours on the couch and what seemed like a mild irritation of the eye turned into some considerable pain and a headache so off to the ophthalmologist, a very good one in Pittsburgh, among many in that city.
He took one look and into the hospital I went for a week, no surgery … yet, but shot up with antibiotics and more eye drops than I knew existed.
My Dad bought me a transistor radio so I could listen to the Pirates’ games. The old Forbes Field was only a few blocks away. There was no air conditioning in the hospital and it was sweltering. I lived on ice cream.
A traumatic cataract quickly formed. I was to learn later that I came within a few hours maybe of losing the eye completely from infection.*
Over the next two years … this was before laser eye surgery was available, all done with scalpels, I had two surgeries to remove the cataract(s) and relieve the pressure on the eye.
The lens, and a bit of the iris, went with the cataract, so I was, and am to this day, mostly blind in that eye and I don’t use it.
If I place my hand over my good eye I can see with the injured one, but it’s highly blurry. I can see the top big E on the chart and that’s it. Maybe a line or two more using the little thing with tiny holes in it.
Had to start wearing glasses, which I took as an attack on my vanity.
No sports, because the condition of the eye was delicate.
That didn’t last long, despite my doctor’s orders and my mother’s fears and, well, now I patrol center field 55 years later chasing down fly balls.
I occasionally have a problem, usually at the beginning of the season, with depth perception, but my eyes and my brain have worked something out between themselves and it dissipates within a few days of practice.
There was discussion into my early twenties about correcting the vision via contact lenses, then eyeglasses over those with prisms in them. Maybe a system of pulleys and weights too. And standing on one foot perhaps.
Like Jerry Lewis or Mickey Rooney characters.
I have vague double vision, but only when I choose to notice. The tricky part is the images from either eye are not vertically in synch either.
No thanks. I can see the girls fine with one eye.
The eye is only a tiny bit lazy upon close inspection.
I see a doc once a year to keep track of the pressure …. it’s a little high but not dangerously so.
I sometimes think about what medical science might so for me in 2018 (I’m sure I’m missing the fullness and depth of a visual field), but I figure if I’ve come this far, so good, and if it’s only half broken, why fix it and take the risk of something else going wrong.
My eye injury at the time, 1963, I was told, achieved some notoriety in the medical journals, though I’ve never gone back and checked. My doctor, a very fine man and a great doctor, had me sit twice at the eye instrumentation for hours at a time while a room full of doctors from all over the world peered into my peeper.
One wore a monocle.
“Ah, yes, I do see … most wery intaresting. Zee angles are wery unusual. Miraculous werk on the cataract, doctor. Quite exquisite.”
Then the next guy would give it a go.
I felt like the Elephant Man. A little sick of my predicament but proud of the attention.
But enough about my eyes. What about women’s eyes?
I didn’t have much need to think about it through 31 years of marriage, but now at my age and single, I seem to be invisible to women.
I see them just fine, but they can’t see me.
Is that normal?
*I was drinking late at night in Philippines many decades ago with a few other expats and one guy, an Australian, who claimed a lot of iffy things that night, as Aussies will do, had a glass eye. At one point he popped out into his hand and plopped it into a glass of water, which I’m not sure was a good thing in the third world. As a kind of drinking parlor trick.
I thought to myself that if I had lost the eye, I could do that too.
“The color effects of cataracts affected Monet, whose colors show the gradual effect as he aged. He had cataract surgery at age 82, and was displeased by the change in perceived colors.”
Is that why his paintings are so blurry?
I wasn’t going to tell my eye story, but it may be that I suffered from a cataract at a younger age than anyone here, or at least I hope so for all your sakes.
I was 11 years old. In the backyard, playing catch with a younger brother with, inevitably, a baseball. I had my back to the woods that took up the back half acre or so of my parents’ property and my brother overthrew me and the ball sailed into the ravine, rolling to the creek below.
I plunged after it and somewhere along the way a tree branch snapped back into my face and, as it turned out, a twig went directly threw the center of my left eyeball and just as quickly snapped back out.
I thought at first, as did my very attentive mother, that the offending branch had merely scratched my eye. She couldn’t tell much with her naked eye. A couple of hours on the couch and what seemed like a mild irritation of the eye turned into some considerable pain and a headache so off to the ophthalmologist, a very good one in Pittsburgh, among many in that city.
He took one look and into the hospital I went for a week, no surgery … yet, but shot up with antibiotics and more eye drops than I knew existed.
My Dad bought me a transistor radio so I could listen to the Pirates’ games. The old Forbes Field was only a few blocks away. There was no air conditioning in the hospital and it was sweltering. I lived on ice cream.
A traumatic cataract quickly formed. I was to learn later that I came within a few hours maybe of losing the eye completely from infection.*
Over the next two years … this was before laser eye surgery was available, all done with scalpels, I had two surgeries to remove the cataract(s) and relieve the pressure on the eye.
The lens, and a bit of the iris, went with the cataract, so I was, and am to this day, mostly blind in that eye and I don’t use it.
If I place my hand over my good eye I can see with the injured one, but it’s highly blurry. I can see the top big E on the chart and that’s it. Maybe a line or two more using the little thing with tiny holes in it.
Had to start wearing glasses, which I took as an attack on my vanity.
No sports, because the condition of the eye was delicate.
That didn’t last long, despite my doctor’s orders and my mother’s fears and, well, now I patrol center field 55 years later chasing down fly balls.
I occasionally have a problem, usually at the beginning of the season, with depth perception, but my eyes and my brain have worked something out between themselves and it dissipates within a few days of practice.
There was discussion into my early twenties about correcting the vision via contact lenses, then eyeglasses over those with prisms in them. Maybe a system of pulleys and weights too. And standing on one foot perhaps.
Like Jerry Lewis or Mickey Rooney characters.
I have vague double vision, but only when I choose to notice. The tricky part is the images from either eye are not vertically in synch either.
No thanks. I can see the girls fine with one eye.
The eye is only a tiny bit lazy upon close inspection.
I see a doc once a year to keep track of the pressure …. it’s a little high but not dangerously so.
I sometimes think about what medical science might so for me in 2018 (I’m sure I’m missing the fullness and depth of a visual field), but I figure if I’ve come this far, so good, and if it’s only half broken, why fix it and take the risk of something else going wrong.
My eye injury at the time, 1963, I was told, achieved some notoriety in the medical journals, though I’ve never gone back and checked. My doctor, a very fine man and a great doctor, had me sit twice at the eye instrumentation for hours at a time while a room full of doctors from all over the world peered into my peeper.
One wore a monocle.
“Ah, yes, I do see … most wery intaresting. Zee angles are wery unusual. Miraculous werk on the cataract, doctor. Quite exquisite.”
Then the next guy would give it a go.
I felt like the Elephant Man. A little sick of my predicament but proud of the attention.
But enough about my eyes. What about women’s eyes?
I didn’t have much need to think about it through 31 years of marriage, but now at my age and single, I seem to be invisible to women.
I see them just fine, but they can’t see me.
Is that normal?
*I was drinking late at night in Philippines many decades ago with a few other expats and one guy, an Australian, who claimed a lot of iffy things that night, as Aussies will do, had a glass eye. At one point he popped out into his hand and plopped it into a glass of water, which I’m not sure was a good thing in the third world. As a kind of drinking parlor trick.
I thought to myself that if I had lost the eye, I could do that too.
Why doesn’t the USA embrace democracy and take control of electoral boundaries out of the hands of politicians?
Well, some places have. But it mostly seems to be places which provide for Initiatives, since the politicians tend to be disinclined to let go.
Or did you have some other approach in mind?
Why doesn’t the USA embrace democracy and take control of electoral boundaries out of the hands of politicians?
Well, some places have. But it mostly seems to be places which provide for Initiatives, since the politicians tend to be disinclined to let go.
Or did you have some other approach in mind?
We did it by voter initiatives in Florida.
We did it by voter initiatives in Florida.
Why doesn’t the USA embrace democracy and take control of electoral boundaries out of the hands of politicians?
And put it in whose hands? And how are those hands chosen?
But why stop there? Let’s get rid of state boundaries as well. Weren’t they drawn by politicians?
Why doesn’t the USA embrace democracy and take control of electoral boundaries out of the hands of politicians?
And put it in whose hands? And how are those hands chosen?
But why stop there? Let’s get rid of state boundaries as well. Weren’t they drawn by politicians?
Well, some places have. But it mostly seems to be places which provide for Initiatives, since the politicians tend to be disinclined to let go.
+1 for noticing. While there are isolated cases elsewhere, initiatives are near-universal in the West. I claim that over the next 25 years this is going to result in the West looking a lot less like the rest of the country, politically.
Well, some places have. But it mostly seems to be places which provide for Initiatives, since the politicians tend to be disinclined to let go.
+1 for noticing. While there are isolated cases elsewhere, initiatives are near-universal in the West. I claim that over the next 25 years this is going to result in the West looking a lot less like the rest of the country, politically.
I think the PASC map is slightly gerrymandered in favor of Dems.
FiveThirtyEight disagrees, which means youāre wrong … obviously. ;^)
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/pennsylvanias-new-map-helps-democrats-but-its-not-a-democratic-gerrymander/
I think the PASC map is slightly gerrymandered in favor of Dems.
FiveThirtyEight disagrees, which means youāre wrong … obviously. ;^)
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/pennsylvanias-new-map-helps-democrats-but-its-not-a-democratic-gerrymander/
The PASC map is considerably LESS fractal than the previous map, or the map proposed by PA Dems. What remains is imposed by mountain chains (as reflected in county boundaries also, too).
PA constitutional amendments are really hard to pass: two successive legislatures have to pass them, then a statewide referendum. So “just amend already” isn’t a very simple solution. In any case, it’s just until 2021.
Lots of 18th Century holdovers in PA.
The PASC map is considerably LESS fractal than the previous map, or the map proposed by PA Dems. What remains is imposed by mountain chains (as reflected in county boundaries also, too).
PA constitutional amendments are really hard to pass: two successive legislatures have to pass them, then a statewide referendum. So “just amend already” isn’t a very simple solution. In any case, it’s just until 2021.
Lots of 18th Century holdovers in PA.
Anyone else a little skeeved out at the PA Supreme Court drawing the Congressional Districts?
not me
I think the PASC map is slightly gerrymandered in favor of Dems.
maybe there are just more dems in PA.
somewhere in this great nation of ours, there is a genius who can come up with a simple way to allocate congressional districts that completely ignores party affiliation.
this is the age of algorithms, right? base it on average number of freckles. annual sales of ice cream sundaes. whatever. just figure something out, apply it uniformly across the nation, and get party affiliation the hell out of it.
He had cataract surgery at age 82, and was displeased by the change in perceived colors
i’ve seen his late work from before he had the surgery. it was…. increasingly vivid.
I see them just fine, but they can’t see me.
Is that normal?
I will paraphrase a brief song introduction monologue, from a leonard cohen performance.
first, you are irresistable.
then, you are resistable.
then, you’re kind of… repulsive.
then, you’re just invisible.
but if you stick around long enough, you’re cute again.
geezer goals.
Anyone else a little skeeved out at the PA Supreme Court drawing the Congressional Districts?
not me
I think the PASC map is slightly gerrymandered in favor of Dems.
maybe there are just more dems in PA.
somewhere in this great nation of ours, there is a genius who can come up with a simple way to allocate congressional districts that completely ignores party affiliation.
this is the age of algorithms, right? base it on average number of freckles. annual sales of ice cream sundaes. whatever. just figure something out, apply it uniformly across the nation, and get party affiliation the hell out of it.
He had cataract surgery at age 82, and was displeased by the change in perceived colors
i’ve seen his late work from before he had the surgery. it was…. increasingly vivid.
I see them just fine, but they can’t see me.
Is that normal?
I will paraphrase a brief song introduction monologue, from a leonard cohen performance.
first, you are irresistable.
then, you are resistable.
then, you’re kind of… repulsive.
then, you’re just invisible.
but if you stick around long enough, you’re cute again.
geezer goals.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fake-news-strikes-again-this-time-targeting-florida-school-shooting-survivors-2018-02-20?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
We are living in a conservative republican-created shit storm of murderous venality, not a polity, not a country, not a democracy, a monstrous piece of conservative republican shit that must be killed.
We aren’t going to redraw the lines.
We are going to blow up the entire landscape.
And I’m not interested in having Rubio, that shitheel Cuban, stand up for the students.
Yesterday, he said the AR-15 genie is out of the bottle.
Yes, thanks to his summoning of that diablo djinn via his masturbatory rubbing all these years of the NRA political donation murder lamp with three wishes, all of them the same.
Money for him.
He will be sent back to Cuba to face execution, the republican scum.
There is no refuge for him in belated calculated fake decency.
Go to Mar-a-Lago, all of you, so we can burn it down and rid the country of vermin.
Rubio’s not a Dreamer. He’s a fucking nightmare.
An NRA wet dream.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fake-news-strikes-again-this-time-targeting-florida-school-shooting-survivors-2018-02-20?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
We are living in a conservative republican-created shit storm of murderous venality, not a polity, not a country, not a democracy, a monstrous piece of conservative republican shit that must be killed.
We aren’t going to redraw the lines.
We are going to blow up the entire landscape.
And I’m not interested in having Rubio, that shitheel Cuban, stand up for the students.
Yesterday, he said the AR-15 genie is out of the bottle.
Yes, thanks to his summoning of that diablo djinn via his masturbatory rubbing all these years of the NRA political donation murder lamp with three wishes, all of them the same.
Money for him.
He will be sent back to Cuba to face execution, the republican scum.
There is no refuge for him in belated calculated fake decency.
Go to Mar-a-Lago, all of you, so we can burn it down and rid the country of vermin.
Rubio’s not a Dreamer. He’s a fucking nightmare.
An NRA wet dream.
My kitchen cabinets are white. When I looked at them after the surgery they had turned sort of blue, as many other white objects had. Cataracts are sort of brown or yellow. They tint everything. Your brain makes the adjustment when it knows what’s up. So the cabinet sends “white,” and the cataract turns that into “yellowish.” The brain, smarter than the cataract, says, “I know the damn things are white, so I’m adjusting the message.”…
That’s interesting, given that your brain makes this white balance adjustment pretty well every day as lighting conditions change.
It’s probably that the cataracts block pretty well all the blue light photons from reaching your retina, so the adjustment is a very large one.
My kitchen cabinets are white. When I looked at them after the surgery they had turned sort of blue, as many other white objects had. Cataracts are sort of brown or yellow. They tint everything. Your brain makes the adjustment when it knows what’s up. So the cabinet sends “white,” and the cataract turns that into “yellowish.” The brain, smarter than the cataract, says, “I know the damn things are white, so I’m adjusting the message.”…
That’s interesting, given that your brain makes this white balance adjustment pretty well every day as lighting conditions change.
It’s probably that the cataracts block pretty well all the blue light photons from reaching your retina, so the adjustment is a very large one.
And put it in whose hands? And how are those hands chosen?..
An interesting question.
The UK’s Boundary Commission is widely acknowledged to be politically impartial, but that is (perhaps) as much owing to the UK’s tradition of civil service impartiality as it is to its appointments procedures.
https://boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/about-us/
And put it in whose hands? And how are those hands chosen?..
An interesting question.
The UK’s Boundary Commission is widely acknowledged to be politically impartial, but that is (perhaps) as much owing to the UK’s tradition of civil service impartiality as it is to its appointments procedures.
https://boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/about-us/
I didn’t have much need to think about it through 31 years of marriage, but now at my age and single, I seem to be invisible to women…
Ask pretty well any womepan over the age of fifty (I possibly exaggerate, but not by much), and they will tell you much the same.
Which suggests that it ought to be a problem with a relatively simple solution…
I didn’t have much need to think about it through 31 years of marriage, but now at my age and single, I seem to be invisible to women…
Ask pretty well any womepan over the age of fifty (I possibly exaggerate, but not by much), and they will tell you much the same.
Which suggests that it ought to be a problem with a relatively simple solution…
Womepan ??
Apologies for the inexplicable absence of the usually unwanted but inescapable autocorrect. And my own incompetence.
Womepan ??
Apologies for the inexplicable absence of the usually unwanted but inescapable autocorrect. And my own incompetence.
I heard about Monet’s eye problems and their effect on his paintings too. But would he not perceive the colours on his palette the same wrong way thus correcting the error for the most part (as opposed to a person with actual colour-blindness where some colours are not shifted but look the same)?
As for stabbing stepping in for shooting: what about semi or fully automatic knife launchers?
(There is a guy in Germany who became a celebrity by designing launchers for anything conceivable* without any use of explosive chemicals).
What is the legal situation about hand-cranked automatic weapons? Does the ban** on automatic weapons cover those too?
*supersonic LEGO bricks!
**I know, strictly spoken automatic firearms are not formally banned in the US but just so heavily regulated that it amounts to a de facto ban.
I heard about Monet’s eye problems and their effect on his paintings too. But would he not perceive the colours on his palette the same wrong way thus correcting the error for the most part (as opposed to a person with actual colour-blindness where some colours are not shifted but look the same)?
As for stabbing stepping in for shooting: what about semi or fully automatic knife launchers?
(There is a guy in Germany who became a celebrity by designing launchers for anything conceivable* without any use of explosive chemicals).
What is the legal situation about hand-cranked automatic weapons? Does the ban** on automatic weapons cover those too?
*supersonic LEGO bricks!
**I know, strictly spoken automatic firearms are not formally banned in the US but just so heavily regulated that it amounts to a de facto ban.
And put it in whose hands? And how are those hands chosen?..
Have a look at how it’s done in the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, or any other country with a functioning democracy. And pick the method you like best.
I don’t know how you get there from here. I’m just drawing your attention to the fact that this is a uniquely American problem.
And put it in whose hands? And how are those hands chosen?..
Have a look at how it’s done in the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, or any other country with a functioning democracy. And pick the method you like best.
I don’t know how you get there from here. I’m just drawing your attention to the fact that this is a uniquely American problem.
Martin Duque Anguiano
Martin Duque Anguiano
For Germany the most significant factor is likely that we do not have a pure “winner takes all” system, so gerrymandering would have very little effect even if tried. Bavaria (run by the German version of the Texas GOP) is about the only exception but even there gerrymandering is not the tool of choice.
For Germany the most significant factor is likely that we do not have a pure “winner takes all” system, so gerrymandering would have very little effect even if tried. Bavaria (run by the German version of the Texas GOP) is about the only exception but even there gerrymandering is not the tool of choice.
a friend’s Facebook feed has introduced me to the wild and hallucinatory world of QAnon.
it’s getting weird out there.
a friend’s Facebook feed has introduced me to the wild and hallucinatory world of QAnon.
it’s getting weird out there.
as an aside – has anyone ever looked into the correlation between software engineering and a tendency to embrace weird conspiracy theories.
just something I notice, i’m wondering if it’s particular to my circle of acquaintances.
as an aside – has anyone ever looked into the correlation between software engineering and a tendency to embrace weird conspiracy theories.
just something I notice, i’m wondering if it’s particular to my circle of acquaintances.
QAnon
never heard of it. Googled, ended up on a Newsweek explainer.
the comments are full of people who believe it.
Alex Jones is a menace. Jerome Corsi is deranged.
QAnon
never heard of it. Googled, ended up on a Newsweek explainer.
the comments are full of people who believe it.
Alex Jones is a menace. Jerome Corsi is deranged.
Have a look at how it’s done in the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, or any other country with a functioning democracy. And pick the method you like best.
That may be, but I believe all those countries are parliamentary systems (as Hartmut points out).
The problem may be deeper than just drawing lines on the map.
Have a look at how it’s done in the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, or any other country with a functioning democracy. And pick the method you like best.
That may be, but I believe all those countries are parliamentary systems (as Hartmut points out).
The problem may be deeper than just drawing lines on the map.
as an aside – has anyone ever looked into the correlation between software engineering and a tendency to embrace weird conspiracy theories.
At the very least, libertarianism seems to be more common than in the general population. And there seems to be a correlation between libertarianism and subscribing to conspiracy theories.
as an aside – has anyone ever looked into the correlation between software engineering and a tendency to embrace weird conspiracy theories.
At the very least, libertarianism seems to be more common than in the general population. And there seems to be a correlation between libertarianism and subscribing to conspiracy theories.
I believe all those countries are parliamentary systems (as Hartmut points out)
Hartmut’s point is that Bundestag elections use a party list on top of constituency elections, with candidates elected from the list so as to achieve proportional representation. So there’s little incentive to gerrymander.
I believe all those countries are parliamentary systems (as Hartmut points out)
Hartmut’s point is that Bundestag elections use a party list on top of constituency elections, with candidates elected from the list so as to achieve proportional representation. So there’s little incentive to gerrymander.
The way California selects its redistricting commission is this:
The California Constitution establishes a set of rank-ordered criteria that the Commission has to follow to create new districts:
That seems to have been successful in creating a body which is effectively non-partisan and which has produced districts that are not gerrymandered. (Of course, given the on-going determined suicide of the California GOP, it’s hard to be absolutely certain just based on the results….)
The way California selects its redistricting commission is this:
The California Constitution establishes a set of rank-ordered criteria that the Commission has to follow to create new districts:
That seems to have been successful in creating a body which is effectively non-partisan and which has produced districts that are not gerrymandered. (Of course, given the on-going determined suicide of the California GOP, it’s hard to be absolutely certain just based on the results….)
I think engineers in general are more prone to look for patterns in everyday life. They are accustomed to knowing “how things work”. For some, the lure to subscribe to conspiracy theories to describe what they see is strong.
One of many articles you can google re: disproportionate numbers of engineers being terrorists:
http://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/25/are-engineers-more-likely-to-be-terrorists-and-if-so-why/
I think choosing to be a terrorist is related to conspiracy theory seeking behavior.
I think engineers in general are more prone to look for patterns in everyday life. They are accustomed to knowing “how things work”. For some, the lure to subscribe to conspiracy theories to describe what they see is strong.
One of many articles you can google re: disproportionate numbers of engineers being terrorists:
http://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/25/are-engineers-more-likely-to-be-terrorists-and-if-so-why/
I think choosing to be a terrorist is related to conspiracy theory seeking behavior.
http://www.eschatonblog.com/2018/02/perfectly-aligned-incentives.html
Mick Mulvaney and minions should further emasculate the CFPB by getting it behind the placement of high-interest, back account-gouging Payday Loan kiosks in hospital emergency rooms and trauma centers throughout the satanic municipalities of gun-besotted America.
Say, you have dozens of children struck down in a nearby school in our now monthly reenactments of the Battle of the Somme in our educational institutions … it’s pretty clear these murders are planned and executed by shadowy forces aligned with the conservative movement’s religious program of fully privatizing the Nation’s public school systems … and they are rushed to nearby hospital emergency rooms as their recently notified parents converge in anguished panics.
Those parents not covered by private or employer-provided medical insurance, including those who think they covered by republican-destroyed Medicaid and other Potemkim village social safety net programs could be shunted to the PayDay Loan window directly adjacent to the Emergency Room Admittance window, where a smiling point of sale fucker with immaculate teeth could quickly have them sign forms to borrow whatever estimated amounts of cash might be required (the estimators, like car insurance estimators, with clipboards, could be standing over the savaged, bullet-ridden bodies of the children on their gurneys in the emergency room anterooms coming up with a quick rough amount for which a check could be cut immediately and handed to the parents, like you know when your car windshield is stoved in by a hailstorm).
The same smiling piece of conservative vermin, recently employed by Wells Fargo, but having moved on to greener pastures, could also coax the parents, in their moment of extreme misery, to sign their children, should the latter survive the conservative gunfire that brought them to the emergency room in the first place, up to attend private religious schools for the next school year wherein ghastly security officers in priestly vestments concealing high-powered weaponry and much else besides, roam the halls.
One simple form. So many conservative principles spread like the squirming deadly microbes on the filthy hands of the conservative movement throughout the country.
The NRA, as both client and bankroller of the republican party, .. this is not widely known outside those in the 4-Chan know … is now investing heavily in these payday loan schemes, their efforts lubricated by Mulvaney’s corruption at the highest reaches of conservative gummint, in hospital emergency rooms.
Follow the blood trail is now synonymous with follow the money in conservative business schools.
The NRA supplies the chaos and fear in the guise of seemingly random gunfire, and profits via its beautifully-integrated vertical corporate superstructure not only by selling military grade weapons of war to its carefully placed and coached perpetrators, but at the other end by dunning these savaged families for the rest of their lives merely to collect the 42.5% interest, forget the principal, on the loans, savaging being a conservative family value.
That 4chan and its beneficiaries in Moscow and the mp republican party are a mortal danger to America’s future is a given. The challenge for the rest of us is to learn, internalize, perfect, and make even more deadly its methods in order to turn the entire conservative movement on itself and kill it dead.
It’s Wednesday and I’m already out of hot air, so have a good week.
http://www.eschatonblog.com/2018/02/perfectly-aligned-incentives.html
Mick Mulvaney and minions should further emasculate the CFPB by getting it behind the placement of high-interest, back account-gouging Payday Loan kiosks in hospital emergency rooms and trauma centers throughout the satanic municipalities of gun-besotted America.
Say, you have dozens of children struck down in a nearby school in our now monthly reenactments of the Battle of the Somme in our educational institutions … it’s pretty clear these murders are planned and executed by shadowy forces aligned with the conservative movement’s religious program of fully privatizing the Nation’s public school systems … and they are rushed to nearby hospital emergency rooms as their recently notified parents converge in anguished panics.
Those parents not covered by private or employer-provided medical insurance, including those who think they covered by republican-destroyed Medicaid and other Potemkim village social safety net programs could be shunted to the PayDay Loan window directly adjacent to the Emergency Room Admittance window, where a smiling point of sale fucker with immaculate teeth could quickly have them sign forms to borrow whatever estimated amounts of cash might be required (the estimators, like car insurance estimators, with clipboards, could be standing over the savaged, bullet-ridden bodies of the children on their gurneys in the emergency room anterooms coming up with a quick rough amount for which a check could be cut immediately and handed to the parents, like you know when your car windshield is stoved in by a hailstorm).
The same smiling piece of conservative vermin, recently employed by Wells Fargo, but having moved on to greener pastures, could also coax the parents, in their moment of extreme misery, to sign their children, should the latter survive the conservative gunfire that brought them to the emergency room in the first place, up to attend private religious schools for the next school year wherein ghastly security officers in priestly vestments concealing high-powered weaponry and much else besides, roam the halls.
One simple form. So many conservative principles spread like the squirming deadly microbes on the filthy hands of the conservative movement throughout the country.
The NRA, as both client and bankroller of the republican party, .. this is not widely known outside those in the 4-Chan know … is now investing heavily in these payday loan schemes, their efforts lubricated by Mulvaney’s corruption at the highest reaches of conservative gummint, in hospital emergency rooms.
Follow the blood trail is now synonymous with follow the money in conservative business schools.
The NRA supplies the chaos and fear in the guise of seemingly random gunfire, and profits via its beautifully-integrated vertical corporate superstructure not only by selling military grade weapons of war to its carefully placed and coached perpetrators, but at the other end by dunning these savaged families for the rest of their lives merely to collect the 42.5% interest, forget the principal, on the loans, savaging being a conservative family value.
That 4chan and its beneficiaries in Moscow and the mp republican party are a mortal danger to America’s future is a given. The challenge for the rest of us is to learn, internalize, perfect, and make even more deadly its methods in order to turn the entire conservative movement on itself and kill it dead.
It’s Wednesday and I’m already out of hot air, so have a good week.
RE: the PASC Congressional Districts …
538 is applying math to say that the districts are “fair” and that sense I suppose it is. In talking to people (all Dems) who have been in the trenches on this issue, there is a wide variation in what would appear to be “fair” and in this case, the PASC put out a map that is shaded towards helping Dems with their geographic issue of heavy concentrations in Philly and Pitt. So it isn’t “unfair”, but it is shaded to help the Dems a bit.
That coupled with the very short timeframe that the court gave for the legislature to come up with an alternative map and the fact that the PASC didn’t publish their “ideal” map in advance for the Pubs to work off of, appears kind of partisan to me.
RE: the PASC Congressional Districts …
538 is applying math to say that the districts are “fair” and that sense I suppose it is. In talking to people (all Dems) who have been in the trenches on this issue, there is a wide variation in what would appear to be “fair” and in this case, the PASC put out a map that is shaded towards helping Dems with their geographic issue of heavy concentrations in Philly and Pitt. So it isn’t “unfair”, but it is shaded to help the Dems a bit.
That coupled with the very short timeframe that the court gave for the legislature to come up with an alternative map and the fact that the PASC didn’t publish their “ideal” map in advance for the Pubs to work off of, appears kind of partisan to me.
RE: engineers and libertarianism …
As someone who is libertarian-minded, I can say that one of the lures for that backwater in the political spectrum is that it gives consistent results to policy questions. Mindlessly consistent, but still.
For me, I start each political issue from a libertarian proposition, but then in a lawyer-like manner I start seeking out the patches of gray in every nook and cranny. See, e.g., my support of single payor.
The engineer-libertarians that I know (and there are several), are happy to derive “the answer” to the policy question and move on. Once you know the answer to the engineering problem and have checked your math, what else is there to discuss?
RE: engineers and libertarianism …
As someone who is libertarian-minded, I can say that one of the lures for that backwater in the political spectrum is that it gives consistent results to policy questions. Mindlessly consistent, but still.
For me, I start each political issue from a libertarian proposition, but then in a lawyer-like manner I start seeking out the patches of gray in every nook and cranny. See, e.g., my support of single payor.
The engineer-libertarians that I know (and there are several), are happy to derive “the answer” to the policy question and move on. Once you know the answer to the engineering problem and have checked your math, what else is there to discuss?
I think engineers tend towards libertarianism for two reasons.
First, typically, they tend to be grounded in objective reality — if you aren’t your bridge will fall down, your program will crash. etc.
Second, they tend to be “reasonable” themselves, and they work with and associate with people who are similarly reasonable. As a result, they can lose track of just how varied the general public’s views are on what would be reasonable. (This being, admittedly, something of an exception to the “objective reality” grounding.)
I think engineers tend towards libertarianism for two reasons.
First, typically, they tend to be grounded in objective reality — if you aren’t your bridge will fall down, your program will crash. etc.
Second, they tend to be “reasonable” themselves, and they work with and associate with people who are similarly reasonable. As a result, they can lose track of just how varied the general public’s views are on what would be reasonable. (This being, admittedly, something of an exception to the “objective reality” grounding.)
I guess I’m missing the connection between “grounded in objective reality” and “libertarian”.
Likewise the connection between “reasonable” and “libertarian”.
I guess I’m missing the connection between “grounded in objective reality” and “libertarian”.
Likewise the connection between “reasonable” and “libertarian”.
the PASC put out a map that is shaded towards helping Dems with their geographic issue of heavy concentrations in Philly and Pitt. So it isn’t “unfair”, but it is shaded to help the Dems a bit.
If the new map is fair by some reasonably objective standard, and results in some advantage to the (D)’s, it seems to me that whatever advantage accrues to the (D)’s is inherent in the demographics of the state of PA.
Which seems like it’s exactly as it should be.
the PASC put out a map that is shaded towards helping Dems with their geographic issue of heavy concentrations in Philly and Pitt. So it isn’t “unfair”, but it is shaded to help the Dems a bit.
If the new map is fair by some reasonably objective standard, and results in some advantage to the (D)’s, it seems to me that whatever advantage accrues to the (D)’s is inherent in the demographics of the state of PA.
Which seems like it’s exactly as it should be.
“In sum, independent commissions do not draw House maps that encourage greater electoral competition any more than partisan legislature do,” the researchers conclude. “Overall, our results suggest caution in overhauling state redistricting institutions to increase electoral competition: independent commissions may not be as politically-neutral as theorized.”
Independent Commissions Gerrymander Just as Much as State Legislators: Independent redistricting commissions may not be as politically-neutral as theorized, says new study
“It’s difficult to feel bad for the Republicans, who drew a bad-faith map in 2011 and eventually got their comeuppance for doing so. They deserved to lose their ill-gotten advantage. But Democrats do not deserve the advantage they have given themselves by politicizing the state Supreme Court’s oversight powers.”
Pennsylvania’s New Congressional Districts Are More Compact. But They’re Still Just as Partisan.: The state Supreme Court did away with a Republican gerrymander and tilted the new map toward Democrats. That should be worrying.
“Let this be a reminder of how easily any reformāno matter how appealing it may soundācan and will be manipulated by those who are most skilled at the political game. In California, reform measures promoted by political novices will undoubtedly be manipulated by the pros. And as the GOP becomes less relevant, it seems less capable of recruiting highly skilled politicos who can duke it out with the Dems.”
Rampant Corruption in California Redistricting: How left-wing activists stacked the deck in favor of Golden State Democrats
“In sum, independent commissions do not draw House maps that encourage greater electoral competition any more than partisan legislature do,” the researchers conclude. “Overall, our results suggest caution in overhauling state redistricting institutions to increase electoral competition: independent commissions may not be as politically-neutral as theorized.”
Independent Commissions Gerrymander Just as Much as State Legislators: Independent redistricting commissions may not be as politically-neutral as theorized, says new study
“It’s difficult to feel bad for the Republicans, who drew a bad-faith map in 2011 and eventually got their comeuppance for doing so. They deserved to lose their ill-gotten advantage. But Democrats do not deserve the advantage they have given themselves by politicizing the state Supreme Court’s oversight powers.”
Pennsylvania’s New Congressional Districts Are More Compact. But They’re Still Just as Partisan.: The state Supreme Court did away with a Republican gerrymander and tilted the new map toward Democrats. That should be worrying.
“Let this be a reminder of how easily any reformāno matter how appealing it may soundācan and will be manipulated by those who are most skilled at the political game. In California, reform measures promoted by political novices will undoubtedly be manipulated by the pros. And as the GOP becomes less relevant, it seems less capable of recruiting highly skilled politicos who can duke it out with the Dems.”
Rampant Corruption in California Redistricting: How left-wing activists stacked the deck in favor of Golden State Democrats
engineers prefer simple, well-defined systems: predictable, explainable, useful. and so they sometimes end up thinking that real life can be made predictable and explainable by setting out a few simple but strict rules.
but real life is essentially chaos.
not wanting to admit this, engineers look for ways to explain real life in simple ways – usually favoring a framework of “the fewest agents acting on the simplest motivations”. and that leads them to simple, but wildly implausible, explanations.
engineers prefer simple, well-defined systems: predictable, explainable, useful. and so they sometimes end up thinking that real life can be made predictable and explainable by setting out a few simple but strict rules.
but real life is essentially chaos.
not wanting to admit this, engineers look for ways to explain real life in simple ways – usually favoring a framework of “the fewest agents acting on the simplest motivations”. and that leads them to simple, but wildly implausible, explanations.
[he explained, in simple terms of simple motivations]
[he explained, in simple terms of simple motivations]
engineers prefer simple, well-defined systems: predictable, explainable, useful.
hence, by extension, my skepticism about the connection between libertarianism and objective reality.
engineers prefer simple, well-defined systems: predictable, explainable, useful.
hence, by extension, my skepticism about the connection between libertarianism and objective reality.
and hence, by extension, why I “just say no” to links to reason.com.
just saying.
and hence, by extension, why I “just say no” to links to reason.com.
just saying.
Would you prefer PA public broadcasting?
https://whyy.org/articles/a-boost-for-democrats-pa-supreme-court-overhauls-states-congressional-district-map/
Would you prefer PA public broadcasting?
https://whyy.org/articles/a-boost-for-democrats-pa-supreme-court-overhauls-states-congressional-district-map/
I guess I’m missing the connection between “grounded in objective reality” and “libertarian”.
Likewise the connection between “reasonable” and “libertarian”.
My view is that a libertarian approach to the world works, to the extent that it does, when everybody is reasonable and interested in getting along with others. And realizes that, in the real world, you can’t really function in isolation from others.
When people are primarily, or even just significantly, self-interested, especially when they are pathologically so, it can’t work. At least, not outside an Ayn Rand novel or Paul Ryan’s imagination.
This is not to say that limited libertarian aspects are bad. Indeed, I tend to favor them myself. But it seems to reach pathology rather faster than most political philosophies.
I guess I’m missing the connection between “grounded in objective reality” and “libertarian”.
Likewise the connection between “reasonable” and “libertarian”.
My view is that a libertarian approach to the world works, to the extent that it does, when everybody is reasonable and interested in getting along with others. And realizes that, in the real world, you can’t really function in isolation from others.
When people are primarily, or even just significantly, self-interested, especially when they are pathologically so, it can’t work. At least, not outside an Ayn Rand novel or Paul Ryan’s imagination.
This is not to say that limited libertarian aspects are bad. Indeed, I tend to favor them myself. But it seems to reach pathology rather faster than most political philosophies.
Removing a blatant jiggering of the districts in favor of the (R)’s will, no doubt, bring some benefit to the (D)’s.
Not the same thing as “tilting the scale” in favor of the (D)’s. More like removing the requirement for one party to run their race while wearing lead shoes.
What is difficult to understand about this?
Removing a blatant jiggering of the districts in favor of the (R)’s will, no doubt, bring some benefit to the (D)’s.
Not the same thing as “tilting the scale” in favor of the (D)’s. More like removing the requirement for one party to run their race while wearing lead shoes.
What is difficult to understand about this?
If the new map is fair by some reasonably objective standard, and results in some advantage to the (D)’s, it seems to me that whatever advantage accrues to the (D)’s is inherent in the demographics of the state of PA.
Let’s be clear. The new PA district map will still give Democrats rather fewer representatives than their portion of the population. They are a (small) majority of the population, but absent a serious wave election will end up a couple of seats short of parity. It’s just that it’s lots less skewed towards Republicans than the existing map.
If the new map is fair by some reasonably objective standard, and results in some advantage to the (D)’s, it seems to me that whatever advantage accrues to the (D)’s is inherent in the demographics of the state of PA.
Let’s be clear. The new PA district map will still give Democrats rather fewer representatives than their portion of the population. They are a (small) majority of the population, but absent a serious wave election will end up a couple of seats short of parity. It’s just that it’s lots less skewed towards Republicans than the existing map.
russell-
I think you are over-simplifying things. There is a range of “fair” outcomes and the PASC went with a result that was fair, but slightly skewed to the Dems. They also did this under a short timeframe without giving this map to the Pubs to work off of.
That’s too partisan for me.
I have no doubt that for you, the water is just fine.
russell-
I think you are over-simplifying things. There is a range of “fair” outcomes and the PASC went with a result that was fair, but slightly skewed to the Dems. They also did this under a short timeframe without giving this map to the Pubs to work off of.
That’s too partisan for me.
I have no doubt that for you, the water is just fine.
According to 538, the court map gives an “efficiency gap” of 3% in favour of the Republicans.
The map is “tilted towards Democrats” only in the very weak sense that the court has given a quite high priority to electoral fairness relative to compactness.
According to 538, the court map gives an “efficiency gap” of 3% in favour of the Republicans.
The map is “tilted towards Democrats” only in the very weak sense that the court has given a quite high priority to electoral fairness relative to compactness.
My view is that a libertarian approach to the world works, to the extent that it does, when everybody is reasonable and interested in getting along with others.
My view, FWIW, is that libertarianism is a great fit for hunter-gatherer societies.
The objective reality of the situation is that 10,000 years of settled human civilization has produced exactly zero libertarian societies.
This tells me that it’s not a natural form of organization for human beings.
Humans are social. Just ask Aristotle, who presented that as an observation, not a normative assertion. Libertarianism is not social, or at least provides no reliable means for being so in any practical way.
So, basically, yes, it works great when everyone is reasonable and places a priority on cooperation and getting along with others. And that’s why it fails in the face of objective reality.
It’s certainly attractive – who wouldn’t want to live in a world where everyone just did as they wished and it all worked out? It just seems unrealistic to the point of being almost not worth discussing.
It’s the polar opposite of the Communist worker’s paradise, and just as feasible.
My view is that a libertarian approach to the world works, to the extent that it does, when everybody is reasonable and interested in getting along with others.
My view, FWIW, is that libertarianism is a great fit for hunter-gatherer societies.
The objective reality of the situation is that 10,000 years of settled human civilization has produced exactly zero libertarian societies.
This tells me that it’s not a natural form of organization for human beings.
Humans are social. Just ask Aristotle, who presented that as an observation, not a normative assertion. Libertarianism is not social, or at least provides no reliable means for being so in any practical way.
So, basically, yes, it works great when everyone is reasonable and places a priority on cooperation and getting along with others. And that’s why it fails in the face of objective reality.
It’s certainly attractive – who wouldn’t want to live in a world where everyone just did as they wished and it all worked out? It just seems unrealistic to the point of being almost not worth discussing.
It’s the polar opposite of the Communist worker’s paradise, and just as feasible.
Libertarians may be overrepresented by engineers and related professions, but they’re not technocrats. Instead, libertarians tend to favor the ideas related to Spontaneous order.
Libertarians may be overrepresented by engineers and related professions, but they’re not technocrats. Instead, libertarians tend to favor the ideas related to Spontaneous order.
Pollo, when your link says “a boost for Democrats” that isn’t the same as saying “skewed in order to favor Democrats”. Removing a skew towards Republicans is a boost for Democrats, right?
Pollo, when your link says “a boost for Democrats” that isn’t the same as saying “skewed in order to favor Democrats”. Removing a skew towards Republicans is a boost for Democrats, right?
From my link:
āThe Pennsylvania Supreme Court didnāt just reverse the Republicansā gerrymander, they went further by helping Democrats compensate for their natural geographic disadvantages in the state,ā he said. āDemocrats are clustered in terms of their voters in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, but the choices that the Supreme Court made in adopting this map tend to help Democrats versus what they might expect from a random or neutrally drawn map.ā
From my link:
āThe Pennsylvania Supreme Court didnāt just reverse the Republicansā gerrymander, they went further by helping Democrats compensate for their natural geographic disadvantages in the state,ā he said. āDemocrats are clustered in terms of their voters in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, but the choices that the Supreme Court made in adopting this map tend to help Democrats versus what they might expect from a random or neutrally drawn map.ā
From PdM’s WHYY link:
These, of course, are the words of someone being quoted in the WHYY piece, not the words WHYY. I’m not sure what is “natural” about their geographic disadvantage such that it is something that shouldn’t be compensated for when drawing districts. Are districts “natural”? I’ve no problem with neutrally drawn, though I’m not sure there’s anything inherently good about random districts.
These are the words from WHYY’s staff:
Make of that what you will. It sounds like a reasonable compromise to me – certainly more so than what the Republicans had put in place or had just proposed, and probably more so than what the Democrats had just proposed, to boot.
From PdM’s WHYY link:
These, of course, are the words of someone being quoted in the WHYY piece, not the words WHYY. I’m not sure what is “natural” about their geographic disadvantage such that it is something that shouldn’t be compensated for when drawing districts. Are districts “natural”? I’ve no problem with neutrally drawn, though I’m not sure there’s anything inherently good about random districts.
These are the words from WHYY’s staff:
Make of that what you will. It sounds like a reasonable compromise to me – certainly more so than what the Republicans had put in place or had just proposed, and probably more so than what the Democrats had just proposed, to boot.
The objective reality of the situation is that 10,000 years of settled human civilization has produced exactly zero libertarian societies.
The neverending search for a true Scotsman.
The objective reality of the situation is that 10,000 years of settled human civilization has produced exactly zero libertarian societies.
The neverending search for a true Scotsman.
I have no doubt that for you, the water is just fine.
I don’t live in PA. Not my hash to settle. I.e., not water I swim in, personally, so I have no opinion about its temperature.
I look at the old map, I look at the new map, and I find claims that the new map does some injustice to the (R)’s to be risible.
YMMV
libertarians tend to favor the ideas related to Spontaneous order.
Perhaps consider that what has emerged, consistently, from the playing out of spontaneous order over the 100,000 year career of human beings, are governments.
I’m not making claims for good, bad, or indifferent. I’m making an observation about objective reality.
Nobody told us to do it. It’s just what we do.
I have no doubt that for you, the water is just fine.
I don’t live in PA. Not my hash to settle. I.e., not water I swim in, personally, so I have no opinion about its temperature.
I look at the old map, I look at the new map, and I find claims that the new map does some injustice to the (R)’s to be risible.
YMMV
libertarians tend to favor the ideas related to Spontaneous order.
Perhaps consider that what has emerged, consistently, from the playing out of spontaneous order over the 100,000 year career of human beings, are governments.
I’m not making claims for good, bad, or indifferent. I’m making an observation about objective reality.
Nobody told us to do it. It’s just what we do.
The quote was from someone with the Cook Political Report. Fairly non-partisan and consistent with what I’m hearing elsewhere.
Even if one were to think the map is completely down the middle fair, I still don’t like the manner and timing that it was published.
The quote was from someone with the Cook Political Report. Fairly non-partisan and consistent with what I’m hearing elsewhere.
Even if one were to think the map is completely down the middle fair, I still don’t like the manner and timing that it was published.
I’ve posted this link before, but this is a revealing look at small-scale libertarianism:
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/06/28/534735727/episode-286-libertarian-summer-camp
These folks are willing to put up with what would be massive inefficiencies in a large economy to play at living in a libertarian bubble.
I’ve posted this link before, but this is a revealing look at small-scale libertarianism:
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/06/28/534735727/episode-286-libertarian-summer-camp
These folks are willing to put up with what would be massive inefficiencies in a large economy to play at living in a libertarian bubble.
Who “he”?
David Wasserman, a national political analyst with The Cook Political Report
Don’t know the man. He’s entitled to his point of view.
I look at the map before, I look at the map after, and when folks talk about how the change is somehow providing any kind of advantage to the (D)’s above and beyond what should naturally emerge from the demographics of the state of PA, I shrug my shoulders and move on.
Not because I “don’t care” when it’s “my side that wins”, but because it’s borderline absurd.
The (R)’s have enjoyed a ridiculous and unearned advantage in the state of PA for years. Somebody took their cookies away. Sucks to be them.
I’m not sure there’s much more to say about it.
Who “he”?
David Wasserman, a national political analyst with The Cook Political Report
Don’t know the man. He’s entitled to his point of view.
I look at the map before, I look at the map after, and when folks talk about how the change is somehow providing any kind of advantage to the (D)’s above and beyond what should naturally emerge from the demographics of the state of PA, I shrug my shoulders and move on.
Not because I “don’t care” when it’s “my side that wins”, but because it’s borderline absurd.
The (R)’s have enjoyed a ridiculous and unearned advantage in the state of PA for years. Somebody took their cookies away. Sucks to be them.
I’m not sure there’s much more to say about it.
russell-
No one is saying that the PASC map is nearly as skewed as the Pub map. But if the Pub map was a 1000 on the gerrymander scale and the PASC map is a 10, then that bothers me when taken in context with how this went down.
It’s not a crime against humanity. The Pubs in PA are still the bad actors in this. I’m just a little skeeved out.
“Not because I ‘don’t care’ when it’s ‘my side that wins'”
Yeah, I’m not buying that.
I started this by asking if anyone else was bothered by this and I have my answer.
Thanks for the responses everyone, I’m gonna get some work done.
russell-
No one is saying that the PASC map is nearly as skewed as the Pub map. But if the Pub map was a 1000 on the gerrymander scale and the PASC map is a 10, then that bothers me when taken in context with how this went down.
It’s not a crime against humanity. The Pubs in PA are still the bad actors in this. I’m just a little skeeved out.
“Not because I ‘don’t care’ when it’s ‘my side that wins'”
Yeah, I’m not buying that.
I started this by asking if anyone else was bothered by this and I have my answer.
Thanks for the responses everyone, I’m gonna get some work done.
Hartmut,
But would he not perceive the colours on his palette the same wrong way thus correcting the error for the most part (as opposed to a person with actual colour-blindness where some colours are not shifted but look the same)?
Good question.
Does the brain color-correct automatically? I doubt it, though I don’t know. It would have to have the correct information. Maybe it knew my cabinets were white from pre-cataract days. So Monet sees white paint as yellow and blue paint as white. (All approximate, of course.)
Also, the white balance shift does not, I think, affect all colors equally, so maybe the blend is not corrected.
All conjecture on my part.
Hartmut,
But would he not perceive the colours on his palette the same wrong way thus correcting the error for the most part (as opposed to a person with actual colour-blindness where some colours are not shifted but look the same)?
Good question.
Does the brain color-correct automatically? I doubt it, though I don’t know. It would have to have the correct information. Maybe it knew my cabinets were white from pre-cataract days. So Monet sees white paint as yellow and blue paint as white. (All approximate, of course.)
Also, the white balance shift does not, I think, affect all colors equally, so maybe the blend is not corrected.
All conjecture on my part.
Yeah, I’m not buying that.
Assumptions of bad faith rarely win hearts and minds.
Just saying.
Yeah, I’m not buying that.
Assumptions of bad faith rarely win hearts and minds.
Just saying.
Yeah, I’m not buying that.
I’m generally an appreciator of your attempts to look at things dispassionately, Pollo, but this seems a touch self-righteous to me. Anybody else’s MMV.
Yeah, I’m not buying that.
I’m generally an appreciator of your attempts to look at things dispassionately, Pollo, but this seems a touch self-righteous to me. Anybody else’s MMV.
Bernie — I tried to write something like this but got too tangled up in speculations and conjectures myself. But these are interesting questions.
I would think that Monet of all people (simply as a visual artist if nothing else) had some kind of *memory* of what Alizarin red and Cadmium yellow etc. look(ed) like, separate from how they currently looked on his palette as his eyes got worse….?
Then again, I’ve talked to several people who got hearing aids after resisting for a long time, and they had quite an adjustment period during which they thought everyone was talking too loud. Their hearing had gotten worse so gradually that they weren’t consciously aware that everything was kind of muffled compared to before.
I dunno. But it’s fun to think about it as a break from the eternal other topic.
Bernie — I tried to write something like this but got too tangled up in speculations and conjectures myself. But these are interesting questions.
I would think that Monet of all people (simply as a visual artist if nothing else) had some kind of *memory* of what Alizarin red and Cadmium yellow etc. look(ed) like, separate from how they currently looked on his palette as his eyes got worse….?
Then again, I’ve talked to several people who got hearing aids after resisting for a long time, and they had quite an adjustment period during which they thought everyone was talking too loud. Their hearing had gotten worse so gradually that they weren’t consciously aware that everything was kind of muffled compared to before.
I dunno. But it’s fun to think about it as a break from the eternal other topic.
Anyone else a little skeeved out at the PA Supreme Court drawing the Congressional Districts?
Not me. Drawing districts is a task legislatures are highly unsuited for. The whole point of gerrymandering is to entrench the party controlling the legislature – to make it hard for the voters to throw them out.
Why would a gerrymandered legislature detrench itself? It wouldn’t.
If a legislature passes a law that proves unpopular we rely on democratic processes to change or repeal it. But that doesn’t work so well for gerrymandering, since by definition it makes it very hard for voters to exert enough pressure to bring about a change.
Anyone else a little skeeved out at the PA Supreme Court drawing the Congressional Districts?
Not me. Drawing districts is a task legislatures are highly unsuited for. The whole point of gerrymandering is to entrench the party controlling the legislature – to make it hard for the voters to throw them out.
Why would a gerrymandered legislature detrench itself? It wouldn’t.
If a legislature passes a law that proves unpopular we rely on democratic processes to change or repeal it. But that doesn’t work so well for gerrymandering, since by definition it makes it very hard for voters to exert enough pressure to bring about a change.
“Anyone else a little skeeved out at the PA Supreme Court drawing the Congressional Districts?”
Skeeved? You mean like how much of the PASC got pitched out because of a Good-Ol’-Pervs racism and pr0n email chain?
Maybe I’m just not wearing the RWNJ Sekrit Decoder Glasses, so I don’t see the indecent images in the PA district map, but the OLD map had some rather Cthuloid shapes.
“Anyone else a little skeeved out at the PA Supreme Court drawing the Congressional Districts?”
Skeeved? You mean like how much of the PASC got pitched out because of a Good-Ol’-Pervs racism and pr0n email chain?
Maybe I’m just not wearing the RWNJ Sekrit Decoder Glasses, so I don’t see the indecent images in the PA district map, but the OLD map had some rather Cthuloid shapes.
Martin Longman over at Washington Monthly has some of the same concerns as Pollo DM.
I guess I’m unclear on why it’s illegitimate for the PA SCOTUS to weigh in on the (PA) constitutionality of the earlier map. Or why it’s illegitimate or even “skeevy” for them to appoint a more or less neutral outside party to re-draw them. The guy in question – Nathaniel Persily – seems pretty legit.
I’m open to arguments to the contrary, but I’m basically not seeing this as (D)’s gone out of bounds, or the PA SCOTUS overstepping.
Martin Longman over at Washington Monthly has some of the same concerns as Pollo DM.
I guess I’m unclear on why it’s illegitimate for the PA SCOTUS to weigh in on the (PA) constitutionality of the earlier map. Or why it’s illegitimate or even “skeevy” for them to appoint a more or less neutral outside party to re-draw them. The guy in question – Nathaniel Persily – seems pretty legit.
I’m open to arguments to the contrary, but I’m basically not seeing this as (D)’s gone out of bounds, or the PA SCOTUS overstepping.
Skeeved?
Being from the region where that term gets used the most (or so it seems, at least), I found that usage curious.
I could go on about whether one skeeves things or one is skeeved by things, but that’s more a matter of regional internecine colloquial warfare.
Skeeved?
Being from the region where that term gets used the most (or so it seems, at least), I found that usage curious.
I could go on about whether one skeeves things or one is skeeved by things, but that’s more a matter of regional internecine colloquial warfare.
“Assumptions of bad faith rarely win hearts and minds.
Just saying.”
I was not implying bad faith. When I think of knee jerk partisan Dems on ObWi, you are not the first or even the second one to come to mind, but when you are refusing to click a reason.com link (I promise you won’t get cooties) and ignore a quote from the Cook Political Report, I’m thinking that some partisanship is bleeding through.
“I’m generally an appreciator of your attempts to look at things dispassionately, Pollo, but this seems a touch self-righteous to me. Anybody else’s MMV.”
LOL … you’ll know when I’m tap dancing in my self-righteous shoes. I generally don’t take my online self seriously enough to get self righteous.
On “skeeved out” … my wife is from PA and uses that phrasing for a general sense of unease; my use here was an homage to her Pennsatucky roots.
“I guess I’m unclear on why it’s illegitimate for the PA SCOTUS to weigh in on the (PA) constitutionality of the earlier map. Or why it’s illegitimate or even “skeevy” for them to appoint a more or less neutral outside party to re-draw them. The guy in question – Nathaniel Persily – seems pretty legit.”
It isn’t a problem for them to invalidate the Pub maps. I think you are mistaken when you imply that the PASC map was “neutral”.
Look at your own link again. In a typical purple state with a mix of urban and rural areas, you expect that a neutral map will favor the Pubs somewhat because the usual urban concentration of Dem voters creates a naturally occurring form of gerrymandering. The PASC map “fixed” this by creating a map that is close to 50/50. People who don’t work in this area say “It’s 50/50, it must be fair!”, but that’s not the case. A map that focuses on existing geographic and political boundaries first would have resulted in the Pubs still having some advantage. The algorithm for this map included a mandate to get to 50/50 and that feels like the PASC had their thumb on the scale.
Add in the timing and manner that this was done, and it was an aggressive partisan move.
“Assumptions of bad faith rarely win hearts and minds.
Just saying.”
I was not implying bad faith. When I think of knee jerk partisan Dems on ObWi, you are not the first or even the second one to come to mind, but when you are refusing to click a reason.com link (I promise you won’t get cooties) and ignore a quote from the Cook Political Report, I’m thinking that some partisanship is bleeding through.
“I’m generally an appreciator of your attempts to look at things dispassionately, Pollo, but this seems a touch self-righteous to me. Anybody else’s MMV.”
LOL … you’ll know when I’m tap dancing in my self-righteous shoes. I generally don’t take my online self seriously enough to get self righteous.
On “skeeved out” … my wife is from PA and uses that phrasing for a general sense of unease; my use here was an homage to her Pennsatucky roots.
“I guess I’m unclear on why it’s illegitimate for the PA SCOTUS to weigh in on the (PA) constitutionality of the earlier map. Or why it’s illegitimate or even “skeevy” for them to appoint a more or less neutral outside party to re-draw them. The guy in question – Nathaniel Persily – seems pretty legit.”
It isn’t a problem for them to invalidate the Pub maps. I think you are mistaken when you imply that the PASC map was “neutral”.
Look at your own link again. In a typical purple state with a mix of urban and rural areas, you expect that a neutral map will favor the Pubs somewhat because the usual urban concentration of Dem voters creates a naturally occurring form of gerrymandering. The PASC map “fixed” this by creating a map that is close to 50/50. People who don’t work in this area say “It’s 50/50, it must be fair!”, but that’s not the case. A map that focuses on existing geographic and political boundaries first would have resulted in the Pubs still having some advantage. The algorithm for this map included a mandate to get to 50/50 and that feels like the PASC had their thumb on the scale.
Add in the timing and manner that this was done, and it was an aggressive partisan move.
On “skeeved out” … my wife is from PA and uses that phrasing for a general sense of unease; my use here was an homage to her Pennsatucky roots.
Pennsatucky (aka Pennsyltucky) would imply at least a bit west (or possibly north) of Philadelphia. I wonder if the way she uses “skeeve” is a first or second derivative of its use in the Philly/NJ/NYC nexus, where it’s closer to its Italian origin.
On “skeeved out” … my wife is from PA and uses that phrasing for a general sense of unease; my use here was an homage to her Pennsatucky roots.
Pennsatucky (aka Pennsyltucky) would imply at least a bit west (or possibly north) of Philadelphia. I wonder if the way she uses “skeeve” is a first or second derivative of its use in the Philly/NJ/NYC nexus, where it’s closer to its Italian origin.
She’s Pennsylvania Dutch … about 45 minutes NW of Allentown. I don’t think she was exposed to Italian-Americans except for summer trips to the Jersey shore.
She also has some interesting Hungarian/Yiddish words that she tosses around … “shpilkes” being one that I’ve picked up.
She’s Pennsylvania Dutch … about 45 minutes NW of Allentown. I don’t think she was exposed to Italian-Americans except for summer trips to the Jersey shore.
She also has some interesting Hungarian/Yiddish words that she tosses around … “shpilkes” being one that I’ve picked up.
The PASC map “fixed” this by creating a map that is close to 50/50. People who don’t work in this area say “It’s 50/50, it must be fair!”, but that’s not the case.
But the thing is (at least if you believe 538), the new map isn’t 50-50. As noted, the state has a small but significant Democratic majority in registered voters. And the new map is expected to produce something like 10-8 (or even 11-7) Republican majority. Which is down from the current 12-5 (one vacant seat), but hardly 50-50.
The PASC map “fixed” this by creating a map that is close to 50/50. People who don’t work in this area say “It’s 50/50, it must be fair!”, but that’s not the case.
But the thing is (at least if you believe 538), the new map isn’t 50-50. As noted, the state has a small but significant Democratic majority in registered voters. And the new map is expected to produce something like 10-8 (or even 11-7) Republican majority. Which is down from the current 12-5 (one vacant seat), but hardly 50-50.
wj-
This map only gave the Pubs a 3% advantage in efficiency when you’d expect more due to the geographic concentration of Dem voters.
If the PASC was going to spring a map on everyone on short notice, then I think the algorithm should have left out shifting districts to Dems.
Apparently I’m the only one here bothered by it.
We can move on.
wj-
This map only gave the Pubs a 3% advantage in efficiency when you’d expect more due to the geographic concentration of Dem voters.
If the PASC was going to spring a map on everyone on short notice, then I think the algorithm should have left out shifting districts to Dems.
Apparently I’m the only one here bothered by it.
We can move on.
when you are refusing to click a reason.com link (I promise you won’t get cooties) and ignore a quote from the Cook Political Report
I don’t read reason.com because life’s too short and I find them annoying. I’m not avoiding their viewpoint, I just generally assume I know what they’re going to say before I even read it, and in general I’m right about that.
I don’t read a whole lot of stuff that approaches life from a specific and doctrinaire point of view, because I don’t find a lot of value in it. FWIW.
I’d never heard of the Cook Report before, and in what was a generally balanced discussion of the issue, Wasserman stood out like a sore thumb. I generally discount outliers, it saves time.
In general I’m more pragmatic than partisan. Believe it or not.
I think you are mistaken when you imply that the PASC map was “neutral”.
I characterized the guy that drew the map as neutral. He’s an academic, not from PA or currently living in PA. He’s been called on to participate in redrawing districts in at least five other states. Maybe he’s a wild partisan, but I’m not seeing it in his CV.
I’ve lived in PA and spent time in most parts of the state. I understand that (D)’s there are concentrated in the cities, as they are in many places. I’ve hung out with friends in York, and Altoona, and Tyrone. I’m familiar with the sensibilities of people who live in between Philly and Pittsburgh.
Per these guys, PA has 4.2 million registered (D)’s and 3.3 million registered (R)’s. If the map’s mandate was to go for a 50/50 split, that seems favorable to (R)’s, as far as I can see.
It was sucky and egregiously tilted toward (R)’s, now it’s not.
Maybe you can explain how the new map gives the (D)’s an unfair advantage. I don’t see it, so I’m not skeeved.
when you are refusing to click a reason.com link (I promise you won’t get cooties) and ignore a quote from the Cook Political Report
I don’t read reason.com because life’s too short and I find them annoying. I’m not avoiding their viewpoint, I just generally assume I know what they’re going to say before I even read it, and in general I’m right about that.
I don’t read a whole lot of stuff that approaches life from a specific and doctrinaire point of view, because I don’t find a lot of value in it. FWIW.
I’d never heard of the Cook Report before, and in what was a generally balanced discussion of the issue, Wasserman stood out like a sore thumb. I generally discount outliers, it saves time.
In general I’m more pragmatic than partisan. Believe it or not.
I think you are mistaken when you imply that the PASC map was “neutral”.
I characterized the guy that drew the map as neutral. He’s an academic, not from PA or currently living in PA. He’s been called on to participate in redrawing districts in at least five other states. Maybe he’s a wild partisan, but I’m not seeing it in his CV.
I’ve lived in PA and spent time in most parts of the state. I understand that (D)’s there are concentrated in the cities, as they are in many places. I’ve hung out with friends in York, and Altoona, and Tyrone. I’m familiar with the sensibilities of people who live in between Philly and Pittsburgh.
Per these guys, PA has 4.2 million registered (D)’s and 3.3 million registered (R)’s. If the map’s mandate was to go for a 50/50 split, that seems favorable to (R)’s, as far as I can see.
It was sucky and egregiously tilted toward (R)’s, now it’s not.
Maybe you can explain how the new map gives the (D)’s an unfair advantage. I don’t see it, so I’m not skeeved.
russel-
I have no reason to believe that the expert is a partisan or was acting as a partisan (I assume that for self-interested reasons he is/was not). I assume that he gave the PASC a number of maps and the PASC chose one that included a partial fix for the Dem urban concentration problem.
Set aside the numbers and results. People who work in this area (not 538) are saying this map was shaded towards helping Dems. Let’s *assume* that’s the case.
Does it bother you that in my hypothetical, the court used political results to draw the map as opposed to only focusing on compactness, existing boundaries etc?
russel-
I have no reason to believe that the expert is a partisan or was acting as a partisan (I assume that for self-interested reasons he is/was not). I assume that he gave the PASC a number of maps and the PASC chose one that included a partial fix for the Dem urban concentration problem.
Set aside the numbers and results. People who work in this area (not 538) are saying this map was shaded towards helping Dems. Let’s *assume* that’s the case.
Does it bother you that in my hypothetical, the court used political results to draw the map as opposed to only focusing on compactness, existing boundaries etc?
On the conspiracy-theory front, I came across a mutual facebook friend who, based on his unusual last name and being local, I was pretty sure was a semi-distant cousin. He and I quickly confirmed such once I brought the subject up to him and we exchanged some information. So he sent me a friend request, which I accepted.
I was immediately treated to a seemingly endless stream of conspiracy-theorizing posts about the outspoken survivors of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas HS shooting from my newfound semi-distant cousin. (I guess sharing a great-great grandmother isn’t a good basis for friendship.)
I kept blocking the original sources he shared them from without unfollowing (or unfriending or blocking) him, but I guess he’s really out there getting at it, because new posts shared from new sources kept coming. (He didn’t seem like a nut/idiot when I first corresponded with him.)
I finally unfollowed him after a post from “Christian Soldiers of Truth” put me over the edge (not because of that particular source, but because the post happened to reach my breaking point, though the source’s name does give you a flavor of the sort of thing he’s been sharing).
Given the volume of plainly ridiculous falsehoods he had shared, I have to wonder if any of his sources were Russian bots. I also wonder if he really believes these things or if he just gets off on trolling liberals (or something???).
It’s all so fncking weird to me.
On the conspiracy-theory front, I came across a mutual facebook friend who, based on his unusual last name and being local, I was pretty sure was a semi-distant cousin. He and I quickly confirmed such once I brought the subject up to him and we exchanged some information. So he sent me a friend request, which I accepted.
I was immediately treated to a seemingly endless stream of conspiracy-theorizing posts about the outspoken survivors of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas HS shooting from my newfound semi-distant cousin. (I guess sharing a great-great grandmother isn’t a good basis for friendship.)
I kept blocking the original sources he shared them from without unfollowing (or unfriending or blocking) him, but I guess he’s really out there getting at it, because new posts shared from new sources kept coming. (He didn’t seem like a nut/idiot when I first corresponded with him.)
I finally unfollowed him after a post from “Christian Soldiers of Truth” put me over the edge (not because of that particular source, but because the post happened to reach my breaking point, though the source’s name does give you a flavor of the sort of thing he’s been sharing).
Given the volume of plainly ridiculous falsehoods he had shared, I have to wonder if any of his sources were Russian bots. I also wonder if he really believes these things or if he just gets off on trolling liberals (or something???).
It’s all so fncking weird to me.
I have read this several(10+) times, and cried every time. The human tragedy is beyond my ability to deal with, fuck anyone who questions these kids right to express themselves however they want.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/i-would-rather-not-be-alone-behind-their-anger-florida-students-are-still-teens-struggling-with-trauma/2018/02/20/5e21bb40-1661-11e8-8b08-027a6ccb38eb_story.html?utm_term=.377f39d4a09b
I have read this several(10+) times, and cried every time. The human tragedy is beyond my ability to deal with, fuck anyone who questions these kids right to express themselves however they want.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/i-would-rather-not-be-alone-behind-their-anger-florida-students-are-still-teens-struggling-with-trauma/2018/02/20/5e21bb40-1661-11e8-8b08-027a6ccb38eb_story.html?utm_term=.377f39d4a09b
Does it bother you that in my hypothetical, the court used political results to draw the map as opposed to only focusing on compactness, existing boundaries etc?
It depends on what we think the standards for drawing district lines should be. Should it be geographic contiguity? Population density? Age? Average income? Political boundaries like county or other municipal lines? Political affiliation?
What is the goal and purpose of drawing district line? To insure electoral fairness? What does “electoral fairness” mean?
To make a long story very short, to my knowledge NO SUCH STANDARDS EXIST. I would be very much in favor of creating such standards, because then it would be much easier to decide if any particular district scheme is fair or not. But that is not on offer. I doubt we as a nation could even come close to agreeing on where the responsibility for figuring out what the standards should be should lie, let alone who should execute them.
So, given all of that, the fact that the PA SCOTUS considered party affiliation in drawing the districts doesn’t bug me. Because party affiliation was the most glaring dimension by which they were askew.
I’m not seeing it as a “power grab”. I’m seeing it as the remedy for a power grab. So I find it skeeveless.
Does it bother you that in my hypothetical, the court used political results to draw the map as opposed to only focusing on compactness, existing boundaries etc?
It depends on what we think the standards for drawing district lines should be. Should it be geographic contiguity? Population density? Age? Average income? Political boundaries like county or other municipal lines? Political affiliation?
What is the goal and purpose of drawing district line? To insure electoral fairness? What does “electoral fairness” mean?
To make a long story very short, to my knowledge NO SUCH STANDARDS EXIST. I would be very much in favor of creating such standards, because then it would be much easier to decide if any particular district scheme is fair or not. But that is not on offer. I doubt we as a nation could even come close to agreeing on where the responsibility for figuring out what the standards should be should lie, let alone who should execute them.
So, given all of that, the fact that the PA SCOTUS considered party affiliation in drawing the districts doesn’t bug me. Because party affiliation was the most glaring dimension by which they were askew.
I’m not seeing it as a “power grab”. I’m seeing it as the remedy for a power grab. So I find it skeeveless.
Since this is the whatever open thread, Bertrand Tavernier’s doc “My Journey Through French Cinema” is now available on Amazon etc.
It’s great, a bit like Scorcese’s docs about US and Italian cinema, but more idiosyncratic (he has produced a more comprehensive 8 part series since) and even more personal.
https://www.filmcomment.com/blog/film-week-journey-french-cinema/
Since this is the whatever open thread, Bertrand Tavernier’s doc “My Journey Through French Cinema” is now available on Amazon etc.
It’s great, a bit like Scorcese’s docs about US and Italian cinema, but more idiosyncratic (he has produced a more comprehensive 8 part series since) and even more personal.
https://www.filmcomment.com/blog/film-week-journey-french-cinema/
If the PASC was going to spring a map on everyone on short notice, then I think the algorithm should have left out shifting districts to Dems.
Of course it would have shifted districts to Dems if the gerrymandered earlier maps were pro-R – that was the whole problem, that R’s won because too many districts were gerrymandered in their favor.
I’m bothered when you say things like “People who work in this area (not 538) are saying this map was shaded towards helping Dems” without providing cites. You don’t seem to provide many citations for your arguments – it’s more like “people I talk to” or “connected Dems that I know” etc. (and I’m paraphrasing, so if I’m mischaracterizing, please say so). You should tell us who you’re talking about because there’s a lot of objective reality out there, and we can discuss whether what we’re looking at is that.
By the way, I’m unabashedly partisan Democrat. I live in a state where all of our statewide offices are held by Democrats. Our gerrymandering has screwed the popular will of the people in that our statehouse is R, and our Congressmen are R. It’s the legacy of white privilege. We need to come up with a system that doesn’t honor that.
If the PASC was going to spring a map on everyone on short notice, then I think the algorithm should have left out shifting districts to Dems.
Of course it would have shifted districts to Dems if the gerrymandered earlier maps were pro-R – that was the whole problem, that R’s won because too many districts were gerrymandered in their favor.
I’m bothered when you say things like “People who work in this area (not 538) are saying this map was shaded towards helping Dems” without providing cites. You don’t seem to provide many citations for your arguments – it’s more like “people I talk to” or “connected Dems that I know” etc. (and I’m paraphrasing, so if I’m mischaracterizing, please say so). You should tell us who you’re talking about because there’s a lot of objective reality out there, and we can discuss whether what we’re looking at is that.
By the way, I’m unabashedly partisan Democrat. I live in a state where all of our statewide offices are held by Democrats. Our gerrymandering has screwed the popular will of the people in that our statehouse is R, and our Congressmen are R. It’s the legacy of white privilege. We need to come up with a system that doesn’t honor that.
sapient-
I cited someone from the nonpartisan Cook Political Report who said this was weighted towards Dems. russell linked to a Washington Monthly piece that said the same thing. I believe Washington Monthly is considered “center-left”.
I don’t know how much additional citation you need.
I agree that “mathematically” this looks like a fair result. In terms of traditional work in drawing political maps, this was mildly in favor of the Dems to the extent that the map helps to overcome a Dem disadvantage due to voter concentration.
Set that aside and consider my hypothetical by assuming that the Court chose a map that helped Dems like I described above. Does that bother you?
sapient-
I cited someone from the nonpartisan Cook Political Report who said this was weighted towards Dems. russell linked to a Washington Monthly piece that said the same thing. I believe Washington Monthly is considered “center-left”.
I don’t know how much additional citation you need.
I agree that “mathematically” this looks like a fair result. In terms of traditional work in drawing political maps, this was mildly in favor of the Dems to the extent that the map helps to overcome a Dem disadvantage due to voter concentration.
Set that aside and consider my hypothetical by assuming that the Court chose a map that helped Dems like I described above. Does that bother you?
russell-
Standards for drawing political boundaries exist, but the factors and the application of those factors vary by state.
FWIW, some states include provisions for avoiding pitting incumbents against each other, and have provisions for favoring competitive districts. On a quick look, I don’t see where the PA constitution has any of these political factors listed and that’s part of my issue here.
I assume that the PASC is coming at this from a “disenfranchisement” angle.
russell-
Standards for drawing political boundaries exist, but the factors and the application of those factors vary by state.
FWIW, some states include provisions for avoiding pitting incumbents against each other, and have provisions for favoring competitive districts. On a quick look, I don’t see where the PA constitution has any of these political factors listed and that’s part of my issue here.
I assume that the PASC is coming at this from a “disenfranchisement” angle.
Set aside the numbers and results. People who work in this area (not 538) are saying this map was shaded towards helping Dems. Let’s *assume* that’s the case.
Somehow, that reads as assuming the conclusion.
But IF the court had actually deliberately shaded the map towards either, then yes, that would bother me.
However, if someone is going to argue that it happened, I’d like to see evidence. Real evidence would be a statement from someone involved (either on the court or the outside expert) saying so.
Failing that (and I admit it seems unlikely; although the things that people will say never ceases to amaze me), then I’d want to see RESULTS that support the claim of bias. And, from what I can see, the results look rather the opposite.
Set aside the numbers and results. People who work in this area (not 538) are saying this map was shaded towards helping Dems. Let’s *assume* that’s the case.
Somehow, that reads as assuming the conclusion.
But IF the court had actually deliberately shaded the map towards either, then yes, that would bother me.
However, if someone is going to argue that it happened, I’d like to see evidence. Real evidence would be a statement from someone involved (either on the court or the outside expert) saying so.
Failing that (and I admit it seems unlikely; although the things that people will say never ceases to amaze me), then I’d want to see RESULTS that support the claim of bias. And, from what I can see, the results look rather the opposite.
One more follow up …
Here is the standard given by the PASC:
reaching a political result was not on the list.
One more follow up …
Here is the standard given by the PASC:
reaching a political result was not on the list.
Sorry for maybe looking too deeply into this, but I’m struck by this
Yeah, I’m not buying that.
Cause it is exactly the same phrase that Donald Johnson used earlier when discussing Yemen. As I said to him, we aren’t really selling anything. You came and said ‘geez, does this piss you off?’, most people say ‘no, not really’ and we descend into dueling links. I understand that it can feel crappy when other people don’t feel the same fervor that you may concerning a subject. (I’m about to write a post about Black Panther, so I’m getting prepared for that) But if you are going to ask ‘what do you think about this’ and the answer that comes back is not the one you really wanted, it doesn’t make much sense to keep hammering on why that wasn’t the right answer.
The republicans got X years with an advantage, and they leveraged that advantage. If a fairer map had been drawn, maybe we wouldn’t have had to put up with articles like these
https://www.npr.org/2018/01/18/578956908/trump-voters-in-pennsylvania-say-they-are-pleased-with-presidency-so-far
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/08/donald-trump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/26/no-regrets-one-year-after-they-voted-for-trump-has-he-delivered
I don’t know how anyone these days can divorce politics from life. It’s baked into the cake and it really sucks. So complaining that it somehow wormed its way into this map (without showing how any change would not be a political result, since the problem was a political one) really strikes me as not realizing the times that we live in.
Sorry for maybe looking too deeply into this, but I’m struck by this
Yeah, I’m not buying that.
Cause it is exactly the same phrase that Donald Johnson used earlier when discussing Yemen. As I said to him, we aren’t really selling anything. You came and said ‘geez, does this piss you off?’, most people say ‘no, not really’ and we descend into dueling links. I understand that it can feel crappy when other people don’t feel the same fervor that you may concerning a subject. (I’m about to write a post about Black Panther, so I’m getting prepared for that) But if you are going to ask ‘what do you think about this’ and the answer that comes back is not the one you really wanted, it doesn’t make much sense to keep hammering on why that wasn’t the right answer.
The republicans got X years with an advantage, and they leveraged that advantage. If a fairer map had been drawn, maybe we wouldn’t have had to put up with articles like these
https://www.npr.org/2018/01/18/578956908/trump-voters-in-pennsylvania-say-they-are-pleased-with-presidency-so-far
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/08/donald-trump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/26/no-regrets-one-year-after-they-voted-for-trump-has-he-delivered
I don’t know how anyone these days can divorce politics from life. It’s baked into the cake and it really sucks. So complaining that it somehow wormed its way into this map (without showing how any change would not be a political result, since the problem was a political one) really strikes me as not realizing the times that we live in.
So, Puello, yeah, I missed your Cook report link – there are a couple of people who share your concerns. But as to that Cook Report, which you describe as “fairly non-partisan and consistent with what I’m hearing elsewhere” – what is “elsewhere”? You do this a lot – “what I’m hearing”. Just a tic that bugs me.
Martin Longman’s beef is that the Supreme Court is majority Democratic so its interference “looks” political, but concedes that any fair version of reality would diminish R seats,. (The Supreme Court is elected in a statewide race – when “the people” vote, they elect Democrats.)
I’m not sure how disenfranchising urban voters is fair. Can you explain why you think that it is? I take the point that creating “fair” districts is complicated. But the crazy districts that were drawn in VA are there in order to wholly disenfranchise Democrats, and that was obviously true in PA and other states.
What factors would you consider in redrawing the map?
Looking at your more recent comment to russell, you say: “Standards for drawing political boundaries exist, but the factors and the application of those factors vary by state.” I know that state statutes vary, but do you have a source for describing state by state standards? I’m not asking this to be challenging, but rather to know what you’re looking at, and whether some states have figured it out in a way that seems reasonable.
So, Puello, yeah, I missed your Cook report link – there are a couple of people who share your concerns. But as to that Cook Report, which you describe as “fairly non-partisan and consistent with what I’m hearing elsewhere” – what is “elsewhere”? You do this a lot – “what I’m hearing”. Just a tic that bugs me.
Martin Longman’s beef is that the Supreme Court is majority Democratic so its interference “looks” political, but concedes that any fair version of reality would diminish R seats,. (The Supreme Court is elected in a statewide race – when “the people” vote, they elect Democrats.)
I’m not sure how disenfranchising urban voters is fair. Can you explain why you think that it is? I take the point that creating “fair” districts is complicated. But the crazy districts that were drawn in VA are there in order to wholly disenfranchise Democrats, and that was obviously true in PA and other states.
What factors would you consider in redrawing the map?
Looking at your more recent comment to russell, you say: “Standards for drawing political boundaries exist, but the factors and the application of those factors vary by state.” I know that state statutes vary, but do you have a source for describing state by state standards? I’m not asking this to be challenging, but rather to know what you’re looking at, and whether some states have figured it out in a way that seems reasonable.
Second, they (engineers) tend to be “reasonable” themselves
This is funny. As a building contractor I have spent a good deal of time arguing with PE’s about their design work. As a rule, they can be just a disagreeable as any random selection of people.
but real life is essentially chaos.
This. In the abstract world of economics (as currently practiced) the math always works. The assumptions? Well, not so much.
Second, they (engineers) tend to be “reasonable” themselves
This is funny. As a building contractor I have spent a good deal of time arguing with PE’s about their design work. As a rule, they can be just a disagreeable as any random selection of people.
but real life is essentially chaos.
This. In the abstract world of economics (as currently practiced) the math always works. The assumptions? Well, not so much.
Perhaps it would help balance the discussion if we also talked about the districts in Maryland. Which, from what I can see, is at least as bad as Pennsylvania — just with the Democrats being the ones dong the gerrymandering.
For myself, I think those districts ought to be tossed out as well. And if it takes having a court do it, so be it.
Perhaps it would help balance the discussion if we also talked about the districts in Maryland. Which, from what I can see, is at least as bad as Pennsylvania — just with the Democrats being the ones dong the gerrymandering.
For myself, I think those districts ought to be tossed out as well. And if it takes having a court do it, so be it.
Thanks for the cite, Marty.
Thanks for the cite, Marty.
It’s certainly attractive – who wouldn’t want to live in a world where everyone just did as they wished and it all worked out? It just seems unrealistic to the point of being almost not worth discussing.
It’s the polar opposite of the Communist worker’s paradise
Russell, shame on you. You obviously did not get the memo. From the Wikki:
People tend to forget that Marx was as utopian as any glibertarian, perhaps even moreso.
It’s certainly attractive – who wouldn’t want to live in a world where everyone just did as they wished and it all worked out? It just seems unrealistic to the point of being almost not worth discussing.
It’s the polar opposite of the Communist worker’s paradise
Russell, shame on you. You obviously did not get the memo. From the Wikki:
People tend to forget that Marx was as utopian as any glibertarian, perhaps even moreso.
Since populations tend to not be randomly distributed, drawing lines on a map to have all districts with the same population and still create “fair” election outcomes seems to be a rather hopeless endeavor. If you have areas where one group (call them Democrats) tend to congregate and other areas that are 60-40 or 55-45 you would, I should think, wind up with election outcomes that tend to favor the minority.
Am I missing something here? What if we abolished the Senate and elected the House via nationwide “at large” elections? I’m sure then there would be squawking about certain areas “being overlooked” and “not being represented”.
But isn’t that the same as asserting that such areas should have a political edge? And if a political edge is “built in” then does not that dreaded “partisanship” (a terrible thing that only occurs when your side is shut out) follow immediately behind?
Just askin’
Since populations tend to not be randomly distributed, drawing lines on a map to have all districts with the same population and still create “fair” election outcomes seems to be a rather hopeless endeavor. If you have areas where one group (call them Democrats) tend to congregate and other areas that are 60-40 or 55-45 you would, I should think, wind up with election outcomes that tend to favor the minority.
Am I missing something here? What if we abolished the Senate and elected the House via nationwide “at large” elections? I’m sure then there would be squawking about certain areas “being overlooked” and “not being represented”.
But isn’t that the same as asserting that such areas should have a political edge? And if a political edge is “built in” then does not that dreaded “partisanship” (a terrible thing that only occurs when your side is shut out) follow immediately behind?
Just askin’
I am
Spartacusnot skeeved.I am
Spartacusnot skeeved.I have read this several(10+) times, and cried every time.
Thanks for the link, Marty. I lost it in the paragraph that includes this:
Which reminds me to thank lj as well, for continuing to call out the names.
I assume everyone has seen this, but in case not, or as a reminder:
March for our Lives
These kids are incredibly inspiring. I fear for them and hope they will continue to be well-supported.
It’s not nearly over, but maybe they will be like the pebble that triggers the avalanche.
I have read this several(10+) times, and cried every time.
Thanks for the link, Marty. I lost it in the paragraph that includes this:
Which reminds me to thank lj as well, for continuing to call out the names.
I assume everyone has seen this, but in case not, or as a reminder:
March for our Lives
These kids are incredibly inspiring. I fear for them and hope they will continue to be well-supported.
It’s not nearly over, but maybe they will be like the pebble that triggers the avalanche.
sapient-
I don’t mean to bug when I pass along what professional political types here in Fla tell me over drinks. Feel free to ignore.
I don’t think you’ve captured what bothers Longman (and me). Because of the natural concentration of Dem voters, Pubs will always have an advantage as long as we have single-member winner take all districts. The likely PA split of Pub to Dem in a non wave election is going to hover between 10-8 and 11-7. Giving these districts a somewhat more Dem advantage is only helpful in a marginal year and that’s too small a benefit for the price in skeeviness for some (apparently very few) Dems and outrage from Pubs and further politicization of the courts.
And I’m not defending political gerrymandering or VA’s crappy district lines. I spent time and money to get the Florida anti0gerrymandering constitutional amendment passed. But while I will fight against political gerrymandering, I don’t think we should be putting our thumb on the scale to “fix” naturally occurring gerrymandering such as what we see with high concentrations of urban voters who go for one party. Especially in a state like PA where the standards don’t include political considerations.
To be clear, I don’t think that voting power dilution for urban voters is “fair” or “good”. Hell, I’m an urban liberal voter in a purple state. But once you root out the political gerrymandering, Pubs will still have an advantage unless you slice up the urban areas and dilute the more conservative surrounding suburbs and rural areas. I don’t agree with that. It sucks that one feature of single-member winner take all districts is that urban liberal voters get diluted, but I’m not in favor of putting my thumb on the scale to fix it.
If you want to fix it, try to get things changed to proportional voting and a parliamentary system.
Here’s the site that I googled for the state by state standards:
http://redistricting.lls.edu/where-tablefed.php
sapient-
I don’t mean to bug when I pass along what professional political types here in Fla tell me over drinks. Feel free to ignore.
I don’t think you’ve captured what bothers Longman (and me). Because of the natural concentration of Dem voters, Pubs will always have an advantage as long as we have single-member winner take all districts. The likely PA split of Pub to Dem in a non wave election is going to hover between 10-8 and 11-7. Giving these districts a somewhat more Dem advantage is only helpful in a marginal year and that’s too small a benefit for the price in skeeviness for some (apparently very few) Dems and outrage from Pubs and further politicization of the courts.
And I’m not defending political gerrymandering or VA’s crappy district lines. I spent time and money to get the Florida anti0gerrymandering constitutional amendment passed. But while I will fight against political gerrymandering, I don’t think we should be putting our thumb on the scale to “fix” naturally occurring gerrymandering such as what we see with high concentrations of urban voters who go for one party. Especially in a state like PA where the standards don’t include political considerations.
To be clear, I don’t think that voting power dilution for urban voters is “fair” or “good”. Hell, I’m an urban liberal voter in a purple state. But once you root out the political gerrymandering, Pubs will still have an advantage unless you slice up the urban areas and dilute the more conservative surrounding suburbs and rural areas. I don’t agree with that. It sucks that one feature of single-member winner take all districts is that urban liberal voters get diluted, but I’m not in favor of putting my thumb on the scale to fix it.
If you want to fix it, try to get things changed to proportional voting and a parliamentary system.
Here’s the site that I googled for the state by state standards:
http://redistricting.lls.edu/where-tablefed.php
Pollo, thanks for the link.
I do appreciate that you know some political types (as do I). I’m reluctant to make the case that their views mean more than ranting over drinks. I’m pretty active in my local party, and my views differ from friends in meaningful ways. Some of my friends are or were party chairs, etc. Democrats are crazily varied, and not at all of one mind. That’s our strength and our weakness.
So I’m not surprised that there’s a buzz of one kind or another with people of views like Martin Longman, or other types. It’s what we do. So, taking a step back, thanks for doing it.
Pollo, thanks for the link.
I do appreciate that you know some political types (as do I). I’m reluctant to make the case that their views mean more than ranting over drinks. I’m pretty active in my local party, and my views differ from friends in meaningful ways. Some of my friends are or were party chairs, etc. Democrats are crazily varied, and not at all of one mind. That’s our strength and our weakness.
So I’m not surprised that there’s a buzz of one kind or another with people of views like Martin Longman, or other types. It’s what we do. So, taking a step back, thanks for doing it.
One other thing:
After the election, I was with some friends who were bemoaning the poor disenfranchised white JD Vance people. I lost it (almost – I manage to be polite enough IRL).
Are you f’ing kidding me? In VA the general population who voted are Democrats, including for Congressional seats and statewide offices. And yet, gerrymandering has deprived me of a voice in Congress and in my House of Delegates. And the Electoral College.
Please, I said.
One other thing:
After the election, I was with some friends who were bemoaning the poor disenfranchised white JD Vance people. I lost it (almost – I manage to be polite enough IRL).
Are you f’ing kidding me? In VA the general population who voted are Democrats, including for Congressional seats and statewide offices. And yet, gerrymandering has deprived me of a voice in Congress and in my House of Delegates. And the Electoral College.
Please, I said.
It does not bother me.
Even assuming that contiguity, integrity, and compactness were compromised in favor of the wasted votes metric involved in the WI gerrymandering, I have no problem with the decision because wasted votes seems a more “one person, one vote” sort of standard than does geographical integrity.
If some circumstance were to change and there was a cultural shift that resulted in Rs flocking to cities and Ds to the countryside, I can’t imagine that the Rs would complain that the cities were somehow overrepresented. Likely they would complain bitterly about the resulting +3 skew towards the Ds.
And if the rural/urban split were as definitive as people make it out to be, you’d expect that rural Ds would complain and urban Rs would be less upset by this result as it would balance regional interests a bit more. But I’m not hearing anything like that.
It does not bother me.
Even assuming that contiguity, integrity, and compactness were compromised in favor of the wasted votes metric involved in the WI gerrymandering, I have no problem with the decision because wasted votes seems a more “one person, one vote” sort of standard than does geographical integrity.
If some circumstance were to change and there was a cultural shift that resulted in Rs flocking to cities and Ds to the countryside, I can’t imagine that the Rs would complain that the cities were somehow overrepresented. Likely they would complain bitterly about the resulting +3 skew towards the Ds.
And if the rural/urban split were as definitive as people make it out to be, you’d expect that rural Ds would complain and urban Rs would be less upset by this result as it would balance regional interests a bit more. But I’m not hearing anything like that.
Does it bother you that in my hypothetical, the court used political results to draw the map
Here is the standard given by the PASC… reaching a political result was not on the list.
Was “achieving a political result” one of the motivations in real life, or just in your hypothetical?
I don’t really mind if the PA SCOTUS drew the map so that the districts resemble the demographics of the population, rather than the geography of the state. More than “I don’t mind”, that seems like a sensible thing to do.
To me.
There are significantly more registered (D)’s in PA than registered (R)’s. Not slightly, significantly. So if having the representation in Congress approximate the political affiliation of the population is a legitimate purpose in drawing districts, then having that as one of the motivations for the PA SCOTUS choice of map seems not just sensible, but correct. Because, if that is among the standards, the prior map was rubbish.
If we want standards that ignore party affiliation, different story. I’d actually be OK with that, it just doesn’t seem to be among the standards at this point, such as they are.
I’m not discounting what Longman and Wasserman (and you) have to say, I’m disagreeing with it.
I don’t really care about the optics, the outcome seems fair and reasonable to me.
Does it bother you that in my hypothetical, the court used political results to draw the map
Here is the standard given by the PASC… reaching a political result was not on the list.
Was “achieving a political result” one of the motivations in real life, or just in your hypothetical?
I don’t really mind if the PA SCOTUS drew the map so that the districts resemble the demographics of the population, rather than the geography of the state. More than “I don’t mind”, that seems like a sensible thing to do.
To me.
There are significantly more registered (D)’s in PA than registered (R)’s. Not slightly, significantly. So if having the representation in Congress approximate the political affiliation of the population is a legitimate purpose in drawing districts, then having that as one of the motivations for the PA SCOTUS choice of map seems not just sensible, but correct. Because, if that is among the standards, the prior map was rubbish.
If we want standards that ignore party affiliation, different story. I’d actually be OK with that, it just doesn’t seem to be among the standards at this point, such as they are.
I’m not discounting what Longman and Wasserman (and you) have to say, I’m disagreeing with it.
I don’t really care about the optics, the outcome seems fair and reasonable to me.
While we’re calling out the names of the innocent dead, we should also start calling out the names of the guilty walking dead:
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2018/02/21/texas-business-association-cancels-dinesh-d-souza-event-after-his-comments-mocking-school-shooting/219456
I’m concerned about the venal, poisonous strain of republican conservatism finding its way into our civilization, conservative media outlets, educational institutions, and conservative political elites from the Indian sub-Continent.
Do you suppose our federal jackbooted immigration authoritarians could take their boots off the necks of the innocent for a moment and round these foreign bugs up and send them packing back to Goa?
While we’re calling out the names of the innocent dead, we should also start calling out the names of the guilty walking dead:
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2018/02/21/texas-business-association-cancels-dinesh-d-souza-event-after-his-comments-mocking-school-shooting/219456
I’m concerned about the venal, poisonous strain of republican conservatism finding its way into our civilization, conservative media outlets, educational institutions, and conservative political elites from the Indian sub-Continent.
Do you suppose our federal jackbooted immigration authoritarians could take their boots off the necks of the innocent for a moment and round these foreign bugs up and send them packing back to Goa?
People tend to forget that Marx was as utopian as any glibertarian, perhaps even moreso.
Yes, that was the point I was (feebly) trying to make.
Because of the natural concentration of Dem voters, Pubs will always have an advantage
Well, that is basically FUBAR, and we should change it.
It’s bad enough that the Senate is inherently undemocratic. The House is intended to be an approximation of the political sentiment of the population. If it’s not, it’s broken, and we should fix it.
People tend to forget that Marx was as utopian as any glibertarian, perhaps even moreso.
Yes, that was the point I was (feebly) trying to make.
Because of the natural concentration of Dem voters, Pubs will always have an advantage
Well, that is basically FUBAR, and we should change it.
It’s bad enough that the Senate is inherently undemocratic. The House is intended to be an approximation of the political sentiment of the population. If it’s not, it’s broken, and we should fix it.
In my zeal to eliminate mp republican conservatism from American civilization, I won’t overlook it when it is disguised as a Democrat:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/20/1743160/–You-can-t-fight-Trump-when-you-agree-with-him-New-ads-hit-conservative-Democrat-Dan-Lipinski
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/02/left-needs-smarter-part-even-knows
The latter mp clown endorsed by jackass Bernie Sanders’ organization.
In my zeal to eliminate mp republican conservatism from American civilization, I won’t overlook it when it is disguised as a Democrat:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/20/1743160/–You-can-t-fight-Trump-when-you-agree-with-him-New-ads-hit-conservative-Democrat-Dan-Lipinski
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/02/left-needs-smarter-part-even-knows
The latter mp clown endorsed by jackass Bernie Sanders’ organization.
The First Amendment is a deadly military grade weapon to be ducked by cowardly conservative NRA pukes:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/21/1743467/-NRA-s-Wayne-LaPierre-to-speak-at-CPAC-but-the-schedule-is-secret-because-gun-huggers-are-cowards
My mouth shoots itself off automatically and it has its own bump stock.
The First Amendment is a deadly military grade weapon to be ducked by cowardly conservative NRA pukes:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/21/1743467/-NRA-s-Wayne-LaPierre-to-speak-at-CPAC-but-the-schedule-is-secret-because-gun-huggers-are-cowards
My mouth shoots itself off automatically and it has its own bump stock.
sapient-
We’re good.
Keep in mind that one motivation for me to post here comes from the fact that I can’t really challenge the views/positions of those Dems that my firm gets work from.
I can up to a certain point because political types generally want to feel like we’re having a good debate, but there are definitely limits.
So if it feels like I’m always hard on liberals or being contrarian, there’s a selection bias at work and I’m just blowing off steam.
sapient-
We’re good.
Keep in mind that one motivation for me to post here comes from the fact that I can’t really challenge the views/positions of those Dems that my firm gets work from.
I can up to a certain point because political types generally want to feel like we’re having a good debate, but there are definitely limits.
So if it feels like I’m always hard on liberals or being contrarian, there’s a selection bias at work and I’m just blowing off steam.
Remember to furrow the brow and for god’s sake don’t stick your tongue in the mouth of one of the female teenage survivors and smack her on the behind as she leaves the meeting.
How’s my hair look?
When I say “I hear you”, that’s the cue to start moving these fake punks along out of the White House.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-notes-at-gun-violence-meeting-include-reminder-i-hear-you-2018-02-21?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Couldn’t hear a thing those blubbering stunt students were saying. That one kid’s Mom was a looker though. I wouldn’t mind bumping her stock.
KellyAnne, tell me what I heard in there?
“We’ll let you know, Chief, as soon as we talk to Wayno.”
Remember to furrow the brow and for god’s sake don’t stick your tongue in the mouth of one of the female teenage survivors and smack her on the behind as she leaves the meeting.
How’s my hair look?
When I say “I hear you”, that’s the cue to start moving these fake punks along out of the White House.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-notes-at-gun-violence-meeting-include-reminder-i-hear-you-2018-02-21?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Couldn’t hear a thing those blubbering stunt students were saying. That one kid’s Mom was a looker though. I wouldn’t mind bumping her stock.
KellyAnne, tell me what I heard in there?
“We’ll let you know, Chief, as soon as we talk to Wayno.”
Nicholas Dworet
Nicholas Dworet
morning Pollo, all,
I see a bit better where you are coming from, which I greatly appreciate. I assume the question that started all of this (“are you skeeved”, which was a word I didn’t know, but assumed it was angered, but the urban dictionary says it is ‘disgusted and morally repulsed’, which seems like a big ask, given all the other things that morally repulse me at the moment) is also something of a habit you have developed, where you ask before putting out your opinion to gauge how much you can push. No problem with that, that seems to be 98% of my life here in Japan, but in the safe space of this blog, I don’t think it is as necessary, it may be better to say ‘I think X is problematic and here’s why’ rather than ‘are you upset about X’ and then listing the reasons why we should be. Just my feeling, but it might lead to more fruitful discussions. But I appreciate the discussion. Thanks.
morning Pollo, all,
I see a bit better where you are coming from, which I greatly appreciate. I assume the question that started all of this (“are you skeeved”, which was a word I didn’t know, but assumed it was angered, but the urban dictionary says it is ‘disgusted and morally repulsed’, which seems like a big ask, given all the other things that morally repulse me at the moment) is also something of a habit you have developed, where you ask before putting out your opinion to gauge how much you can push. No problem with that, that seems to be 98% of my life here in Japan, but in the safe space of this blog, I don’t think it is as necessary, it may be better to say ‘I think X is problematic and here’s why’ rather than ‘are you upset about X’ and then listing the reasons why we should be. Just my feeling, but it might lead to more fruitful discussions. But I appreciate the discussion. Thanks.
I don’t think we should be putting our thumb on the scale to “fix” naturally occurring gerrymandering such as what we see with high concentrations of urban voters who go for one party.
“Natural” is in the eye of the beholder. People tend to overlook the fact that the Constitution itself was a highly charged political document, the outcome of a costly and destructive revolutionary struggle and bitter post revolutionary disagreements. We’ve been trying to fix it ever since…even, gasp, going to the extreme of a bloody protracted civil war to do so.
So when people assert moral claims based on what they assert is “natural” (as opposed to OMFG “political” because we all know that “political” is just another word for bad) I reach for the rhetorical thermonuclear devices.
With deep apologies.
I don’t think we should be putting our thumb on the scale to “fix” naturally occurring gerrymandering such as what we see with high concentrations of urban voters who go for one party.
“Natural” is in the eye of the beholder. People tend to overlook the fact that the Constitution itself was a highly charged political document, the outcome of a costly and destructive revolutionary struggle and bitter post revolutionary disagreements. We’ve been trying to fix it ever since…even, gasp, going to the extreme of a bloody protracted civil war to do so.
So when people assert moral claims based on what they assert is “natural” (as opposed to OMFG “political” because we all know that “political” is just another word for bad) I reach for the rhetorical thermonuclear devices.
With deep apologies.
Thanks to everybody who commented on cataracts (and vision issues generally) in response to my bleg. I need to read through them a second time before I ask any follow-up questions.
Meanwhile, may I suggest some compromises to He, Trump and his acolytes?
1) Don’t even think about demanding the death penalty for the “mentally ill” who shoot up schools with AR-15s until you forthrightly condemn the RWNJs who claim the survivors are “paid actors”.
2) You can have guns in locked safes at schools if you ban sales of assault rifles.
3) You can have “concealed carry” teachers if you outlaw existing assault rifles.
4) You can keep taking money from the NRA if you close the “gun show loophole”.
5) You can go fuck yourselves. I’ll wait.
–TP
Thanks to everybody who commented on cataracts (and vision issues generally) in response to my bleg. I need to read through them a second time before I ask any follow-up questions.
Meanwhile, may I suggest some compromises to He, Trump and his acolytes?
1) Don’t even think about demanding the death penalty for the “mentally ill” who shoot up schools with AR-15s until you forthrightly condemn the RWNJs who claim the survivors are “paid actors”.
2) You can have guns in locked safes at schools if you ban sales of assault rifles.
3) You can have “concealed carry” teachers if you outlaw existing assault rifles.
4) You can keep taking money from the NRA if you close the “gun show loophole”.
5) You can go fuck yourselves. I’ll wait.
–TP
The likely PA split of Pub to Dem in a non wave election is going to hover between 10-8 and 11-7.
Anyone know if the PASC districts used 2010 census data for equal populations, or current estimates? Almost every apportionment projection I’ve seen calls for Pennsylvania to lose a House seat after the 2020 census. I don’t follow PA population dynamics — my expectation would be that “community of interest” districting will tend towards the lost seat likely being a rural-leaning one.
The likely PA split of Pub to Dem in a non wave election is going to hover between 10-8 and 11-7.
Anyone know if the PASC districts used 2010 census data for equal populations, or current estimates? Almost every apportionment projection I’ve seen calls for Pennsylvania to lose a House seat after the 2020 census. I don’t follow PA population dynamics — my expectation would be that “community of interest” districting will tend towards the lost seat likely being a rural-leaning one.
If you want to fix it, try to get things changed to proportional voting and a parliamentary system.
Proportional voting has its own problems, but any voting system which routinely elects more candidates from the second largest party than from the largest is not fit for purpose. It’s democratic (small ‘d’) to seek to avoid that when drawing electoral boundaries.
I don’t understand your point about a parliamentary system.
If you want to fix it, try to get things changed to proportional voting and a parliamentary system.
Proportional voting has its own problems, but any voting system which routinely elects more candidates from the second largest party than from the largest is not fit for purpose. It’s democratic (small ‘d’) to seek to avoid that when drawing electoral boundaries.
I don’t understand your point about a parliamentary system.
lj-
Part of my “style” is based on how I take depositions which consists of asking general open ended questions and then circling around to the point I’m trying to get to. Sometimes I do it without thinking.
Part of it is I’m genuinely curious what people think. Anyone could tell that I didn’t like how the PASC acted from the original post, but rather than set out my reasons right off the bat, I was hoping to get some thoughts before I made my pitch. In hindsight, it would have been more efficient if I had started by laying out my entire argument, but you don’t know that when you start the questions.
I appreciate that you feel that I’m concerned about how far I can push, but I’m afraid that doesn’t enter in to it. I’m not actively trying to piss people off, but at the end of the day this is an internet forum and the stakes are pretty small.
lj-
Part of my “style” is based on how I take depositions which consists of asking general open ended questions and then circling around to the point I’m trying to get to. Sometimes I do it without thinking.
Part of it is I’m genuinely curious what people think. Anyone could tell that I didn’t like how the PASC acted from the original post, but rather than set out my reasons right off the bat, I was hoping to get some thoughts before I made my pitch. In hindsight, it would have been more efficient if I had started by laying out my entire argument, but you don’t know that when you start the questions.
I appreciate that you feel that I’m concerned about how far I can push, but I’m afraid that doesn’t enter in to it. I’m not actively trying to piss people off, but at the end of the day this is an internet forum and the stakes are pretty small.
PB-
I was thinking of issues related to the Electoral College when I mentioned parliamentary systems. It probably was not a useful thing to toss out there.
If you are suggesting that we should gerrymander to deal with the urban concentration issue, then I obviously disagree.
PB-
I was thinking of issues related to the Electoral College when I mentioned parliamentary systems. It probably was not a useful thing to toss out there.
If you are suggesting that we should gerrymander to deal with the urban concentration issue, then I obviously disagree.
This is funny. As a building contractor I have spent a good deal of time arguing with PE’s about their design work. As a rule, they can be just a disagreeable as any random selection of people.
As and engineer who works with contractors (mostly of the electrical sort), Iām generally deferential to them on that which is their business, because they know how to make things work with the tools and materials that are actually available in the real world. Design only that which needs to be designed, and leave the physical details to the experts to the extent that those details donāt deviate from that minimally necessary design.
Were it not for certain rules (or at least common practices) of procurement, engineers and contractors would design projects together before attempting to construct them, saving a lot of time and money (says me).
This is funny. As a building contractor I have spent a good deal of time arguing with PE’s about their design work. As a rule, they can be just a disagreeable as any random selection of people.
As and engineer who works with contractors (mostly of the electrical sort), Iām generally deferential to them on that which is their business, because they know how to make things work with the tools and materials that are actually available in the real world. Design only that which needs to be designed, and leave the physical details to the experts to the extent that those details donāt deviate from that minimally necessary design.
Were it not for certain rules (or at least common practices) of procurement, engineers and contractors would design projects together before attempting to construct them, saving a lot of time and money (says me).
bobby-
No need to apologize to me for rhetoric.
Compactness and avoidance of splitting existing political boundaries are common factors that seem like good ideas. If you employ those factors with single-member districts, then dilution of the voting power of urbanites who tend to vote for one party will follow.
I would rather move to a proportionate voting system than engage in political gerrymandering to “fix” single member districts.
bobby-
No need to apologize to me for rhetoric.
Compactness and avoidance of splitting existing political boundaries are common factors that seem like good ideas. If you employ those factors with single-member districts, then dilution of the voting power of urbanites who tend to vote for one party will follow.
I would rather move to a proportionate voting system than engage in political gerrymandering to “fix” single member districts.
So when people assert moral claims based on what they assert is “natural” (as opposed to OMFG “political” because we all know that “political” is just another word for bad) I reach for the rhetorical thermonuclear devices.
āNaturalā has the same sort of ring that the āfreeā market does, no? That people have organized themselves in certain ways, and have chosen to live in certain places with certain densities, is at least in some part the result of policies chosen by people elected under the electoral systems in place, so itās rather circular to say that those electoral systems should not recognize their own results and only treat them as ānaturalā phenomenon not to be interfered with in any way.
One mustnāt violate nature.
So when people assert moral claims based on what they assert is “natural” (as opposed to OMFG “political” because we all know that “political” is just another word for bad) I reach for the rhetorical thermonuclear devices.
āNaturalā has the same sort of ring that the āfreeā market does, no? That people have organized themselves in certain ways, and have chosen to live in certain places with certain densities, is at least in some part the result of policies chosen by people elected under the electoral systems in place, so itās rather circular to say that those electoral systems should not recognize their own results and only treat them as ānaturalā phenomenon not to be interfered with in any way.
One mustnāt violate nature.
Compactness and avoidance of splitting existing political boundaries are common factors that seem like good ideas. [emphasis added]
The “compactness” principle isn’t so much good in itself as that it constrains (to some degree) how much gerrymandering can be done. So it’s a means to an end, rather than end to be pursued for its own sake.
But it occurs to me that the virtue of “existing political boundaries” is even less obvious in a lot of cases. For example, county lines (the ones that aren’t purely arbitrary) tend to reflect the situation decades, or even a century or two, ago. These days, even city limits often don’t reflect current realities on the ground — witness the way I can drive thru a half dozen (suburban) towns and never have a clue exactly when I pass from one to the next. Objectively, it’s just on continuous suburb.
Compactness and avoidance of splitting existing political boundaries are common factors that seem like good ideas. [emphasis added]
The “compactness” principle isn’t so much good in itself as that it constrains (to some degree) how much gerrymandering can be done. So it’s a means to an end, rather than end to be pursued for its own sake.
But it occurs to me that the virtue of “existing political boundaries” is even less obvious in a lot of cases. For example, county lines (the ones that aren’t purely arbitrary) tend to reflect the situation decades, or even a century or two, ago. These days, even city limits often don’t reflect current realities on the ground — witness the way I can drive thru a half dozen (suburban) towns and never have a clue exactly when I pass from one to the next. Objectively, it’s just on continuous suburb.
”Ā Objectively, it’s just on continuous suburb.”
I find this somewhat odd, just because you don’t know where those boundaries are doesn’t mean they don’t have value, or meaning.
It is not objectively one continuous suburb, it is subjectively one continuous suburb to you.
”Ā Objectively, it’s just on continuous suburb.”
I find this somewhat odd, just because you don’t know where those boundaries are doesn’t mean they don’t have value, or meaning.
It is not objectively one continuous suburb, it is subjectively one continuous suburb to you.
Well, it’s not a matter of me just passing thru. Since I live in one of them, I think I might have a clue about the (lack of) differences. Actually, I probable am more aware of the differences than most — at least the historical ones. Simply because I’ve lived here since the days when they were a bunch of little farm towns with lots of open space between them.
Well, it’s not a matter of me just passing thru. Since I live in one of them, I think I might have a clue about the (lack of) differences. Actually, I probable am more aware of the differences than most — at least the historical ones. Simply because I’ve lived here since the days when they were a bunch of little farm towns with lots of open space between them.
I would rather move to a proportionate voting system than engage in political gerrymandering to “fix” single member districts.
Well sure. And I want a pony. You get skeeved with the political realities you have to deal with, not the ones you wish you had…or that old saw about cutting you nose off to spite your face or something like that.
There is/are reason(s) there are “partisans”. Some of them are actually legitimate.
There you go.
Thanks.
I would rather move to a proportionate voting system than engage in political gerrymandering to “fix” single member districts.
Well sure. And I want a pony. You get skeeved with the political realities you have to deal with, not the ones you wish you had…or that old saw about cutting you nose off to spite your face or something like that.
There is/are reason(s) there are “partisans”. Some of them are actually legitimate.
There you go.
Thanks.
But it occurs to me that the virtue of “existing political boundaries” is even less obvious in a lot of cases.
A sizeable chunk of my property taxes get spent by the county commissioners. At least in my state, they have a large say in how things like public assistance will be handled (eg, they can make applying straightforward, or miserable). The county is currently split across three Congressional districts — some county had to get split that many ways, and traditionally (more than the last 30 years) it’s this one. I’m hoping that we get another House seat after 2020, and that the new districts can at least only split us into two parts.
But it occurs to me that the virtue of “existing political boundaries” is even less obvious in a lot of cases.
A sizeable chunk of my property taxes get spent by the county commissioners. At least in my state, they have a large say in how things like public assistance will be handled (eg, they can make applying straightforward, or miserable). The county is currently split across three Congressional districts — some county had to get split that many ways, and traditionally (more than the last 30 years) it’s this one. I’m hoping that we get another House seat after 2020, and that the new districts can at least only split us into two parts.
my two favorite ideas for drawing districts, so far:
1. voronoi tilings at the state level, based on points of greatest population density in each state, one point per house seat
2. wj’s suggestion of having parties take truns defining successive districts
voronois appeal to my desire for a simple, clear, easy to measure solution.
wj’s seems most cognizant of human nature.
my two favorite ideas for drawing districts, so far:
1. voronoi tilings at the state level, based on points of greatest population density in each state, one point per house seat
2. wj’s suggestion of having parties take truns defining successive districts
voronois appeal to my desire for a simple, clear, easy to measure solution.
wj’s seems most cognizant of human nature.
Were it not for certain rules (or at least common practices) of procurement, engineers and contractors would design projects together before attempting to construct them, saving a lot of time and money (says me).
Alas, in public works dealing with taxpayer money this ain’t gonna’ happen. But I would note that electrical engineers (as a discipline) are more inclined to say, “Meh. Blew that. Change order approved,” than say, most architects who, with the assistance of AIA boilerplate, tend to think they are God, and beyond mistakes.
š
Were it not for certain rules (or at least common practices) of procurement, engineers and contractors would design projects together before attempting to construct them, saving a lot of time and money (says me).
Alas, in public works dealing with taxpayer money this ain’t gonna’ happen. But I would note that electrical engineers (as a discipline) are more inclined to say, “Meh. Blew that. Change order approved,” than say, most architects who, with the assistance of AIA boilerplate, tend to think they are God, and beyond mistakes.
š
Marty: “I find this somewhat odd, just because you don’t know where those boundaries are doesn’t mean they don’t have value, or meaning.”
Your East-Coast “elitism” is showing. Try living in SoCal or NorCal and you’ll soon see wj’s point.
Marty: “I find this somewhat odd, just because you don’t know where those boundaries are doesn’t mean they don’t have value, or meaning.”
Your East-Coast “elitism” is showing. Try living in SoCal or NorCal and you’ll soon see wj’s point.
Does the brain color-correct automatically? I doubt it, though I don’t know. It would have to have the correct information…
Day to day, absolutely. This was brought home to me when I got my fift digital camera and forgot to reset the white balance setting from ‘sunshine’ on a day it snowed… the snow came out bright blue in the pictures. If you use photoshop, and look at the RGB colour channels (which loosely correspond to the colour detecting cells of the retina) you get a good idea of what’s happening.
I think the issue with cataracts is that they block out some light wavelengths almost completely (the blue end of the visual spectrum), and in the almost complete absence of that colour information the brain makes a more permanent correction than the dynamic changes it makes every day to changing light conditions.
It’s complicated, as most people will be aware (for example) of the difference between the light from an incandescent and a fluorescent bulb – but will still ‘see’ white as white.
Under a sodium street lamp, there is virtually no colour information other than a particular wavelength of yellow, and that is all you will see.
Does the brain color-correct automatically? I doubt it, though I don’t know. It would have to have the correct information…
Day to day, absolutely. This was brought home to me when I got my fift digital camera and forgot to reset the white balance setting from ‘sunshine’ on a day it snowed… the snow came out bright blue in the pictures. If you use photoshop, and look at the RGB colour channels (which loosely correspond to the colour detecting cells of the retina) you get a good idea of what’s happening.
I think the issue with cataracts is that they block out some light wavelengths almost completely (the blue end of the visual spectrum), and in the almost complete absence of that colour information the brain makes a more permanent correction than the dynamic changes it makes every day to changing light conditions.
It’s complicated, as most people will be aware (for example) of the difference between the light from an incandescent and a fluorescent bulb – but will still ‘see’ white as white.
Under a sodium street lamp, there is virtually no colour information other than a particular wavelength of yellow, and that is all you will see.
The sight in my left eye deteriorated fast than my right eye. I put off getting the operations until I was having trouble seeing with my right eye. By then my left eye was bad enough that it wasn’t staying in sync with my right eye. After the operation on my left eye, when looking at someone a short distance away, I could see two people standing side by side. One dressed in drab clothing. The other in bright colors.
The sight in my left eye deteriorated fast than my right eye. I put off getting the operations until I was having trouble seeing with my right eye. By then my left eye was bad enough that it wasn’t staying in sync with my right eye. After the operation on my left eye, when looking at someone a short distance away, I could see two people standing side by side. One dressed in drab clothing. The other in bright colors.
In hindsight, it would have been more efficient if I had started by laying out my entire argument, but you don’t know that when you start the questions.
It’s not the efficiency, I live in Japan, home of so many inefficient things. It’s that someone answers your question and you then, by taking on arguments, make it seem that you weren’t really interested in what the answer is. For a teacher, that’s a no-no and I am definitely not a lawyer, but I believe one of the key things about taking depositions is that you should never ask a question if you don’t know what answer you will get. That deposition discourse makes the discussion oppositional. It may make for great fireworks, but probably doesn’t help clarify notions and ideas. I know we have a lot of lawyers here, but I hope all of you might consider how asking questions you know the answer to doesn’t really let you learn things about how people think.
This is all beside the point of drawing districts and such and I am interested in hearing how it is done, and how it should and shouldn’t be done. Here in Japan, there are, I think, similar problems about the rural vote.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/09/japan-rural-voters-tokyo-abe
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/11/27/national/politics-diplomacy/vote-value-disparity-ensures-rural-maintain-clout-urban-masses/#.Wo5xdRNuam0
https://www.nippon.com/en/currents/d00078/
However, all those articles are from 2013 and while there was legislation to reduce the 5 to 1 disparity,
https://www.nippon.com/en/in-depth/a04401/
activists are still protesting
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/07/11/national/politics-diplomacy/lawsuits-aim-to-void-japans-latest-election-over-vote-disparity/#.Wo5yMBNuam0
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/10/31/national/crime-legal/fukuoka-court-rejects-suit-vote-value-gap-july-upper-house-election/#.Wo5yNRNuam0
It’s all interesting stuff so I appreciate you bringing it up, but I do think it would be better to lay out why you hold your opinion. thx.
In hindsight, it would have been more efficient if I had started by laying out my entire argument, but you don’t know that when you start the questions.
It’s not the efficiency, I live in Japan, home of so many inefficient things. It’s that someone answers your question and you then, by taking on arguments, make it seem that you weren’t really interested in what the answer is. For a teacher, that’s a no-no and I am definitely not a lawyer, but I believe one of the key things about taking depositions is that you should never ask a question if you don’t know what answer you will get. That deposition discourse makes the discussion oppositional. It may make for great fireworks, but probably doesn’t help clarify notions and ideas. I know we have a lot of lawyers here, but I hope all of you might consider how asking questions you know the answer to doesn’t really let you learn things about how people think.
This is all beside the point of drawing districts and such and I am interested in hearing how it is done, and how it should and shouldn’t be done. Here in Japan, there are, I think, similar problems about the rural vote.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/09/japan-rural-voters-tokyo-abe
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/11/27/national/politics-diplomacy/vote-value-disparity-ensures-rural-maintain-clout-urban-masses/#.Wo5xdRNuam0
https://www.nippon.com/en/currents/d00078/
However, all those articles are from 2013 and while there was legislation to reduce the 5 to 1 disparity,
https://www.nippon.com/en/in-depth/a04401/
activists are still protesting
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/07/11/national/politics-diplomacy/lawsuits-aim-to-void-japans-latest-election-over-vote-disparity/#.Wo5yMBNuam0
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/10/31/national/crime-legal/fukuoka-court-rejects-suit-vote-value-gap-july-upper-house-election/#.Wo5yNRNuam0
It’s all interesting stuff so I appreciate you bringing it up, but I do think it would be better to lay out why you hold your opinion. thx.
I’m pretty sure I’ve shared this, but consider it a public service announcement. I had a detached retina which occurred when the vitreous in my right eye began to lose liquidity and shrink up, tearing the retina which then allowed the retina to be peeled away from the back of my eye. I was told that this is a common problem, especially among people who have had corrective lenses for a long time (me, since 2nd grade) because the deformation of the eye makes it more likely that the retina will stretch and tear. I could have prevented this had an opthomologist taken a look, he would have then done what they did to my left eye, which was use a laser to ‘weld’ the tears so they wouldn’t get bigger. I was 53 and the doctor said that I should have been doing yearly checkups from the age of 50. Oh well, maybe I can get this right in my next life…
I’m pretty sure I’ve shared this, but consider it a public service announcement. I had a detached retina which occurred when the vitreous in my right eye began to lose liquidity and shrink up, tearing the retina which then allowed the retina to be peeled away from the back of my eye. I was told that this is a common problem, especially among people who have had corrective lenses for a long time (me, since 2nd grade) because the deformation of the eye makes it more likely that the retina will stretch and tear. I could have prevented this had an opthomologist taken a look, he would have then done what they did to my left eye, which was use a laser to ‘weld’ the tears so they wouldn’t get bigger. I was 53 and the doctor said that I should have been doing yearly checkups from the age of 50. Oh well, maybe I can get this right in my next life…
If you are suggesting that we should gerrymander to deal with the urban concentration issue, then I obviously disagree.
You’re using a loaded word there. Fair boundaries are ones in which the party getting more votes wins more districts. “Gerrymandering” by definition is aimed at an unfair result.
If you are suggesting that we should gerrymander to deal with the urban concentration issue, then I obviously disagree.
You’re using a loaded word there. Fair boundaries are ones in which the party getting more votes wins more districts. “Gerrymandering” by definition is aimed at an unfair result.
PB-
I agree that “gerrymander” has baggage. What you are suggesting is that lines be drawn that deprioritize existing political boundaries and compactness for a political result (creating single-member districts that better reflect the political makeup of the state at large).
I could argue that it’s all gerrymandering and only a difference in degree, but not kind, but if you have a better word for it, then I’ll use it.
FWIW, I think this was done in Chicago at some point. The districts looked like pizza slices where liberal downtown areas were at the point then the district spread out to more conservative suburbs. I don’t think that folks in the suburbs felt like they are being treated fairly there.
In googling for the Chicago districts, I came across this:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/michael-latner/pennsylvanias-new-congressional-map-is-fair-but-reveals-fundamental-tradeoffs-in-institutional-choice
PB-
I agree that “gerrymander” has baggage. What you are suggesting is that lines be drawn that deprioritize existing political boundaries and compactness for a political result (creating single-member districts that better reflect the political makeup of the state at large).
I could argue that it’s all gerrymandering and only a difference in degree, but not kind, but if you have a better word for it, then I’ll use it.
FWIW, I think this was done in Chicago at some point. The districts looked like pizza slices where liberal downtown areas were at the point then the district spread out to more conservative suburbs. I don’t think that folks in the suburbs felt like they are being treated fairly there.
In googling for the Chicago districts, I came across this:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/michael-latner/pennsylvanias-new-congressional-map-is-fair-but-reveals-fundamental-tradeoffs-in-institutional-choice
This Slate article makes a couple of interesting points…
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/the-pennsylvania-supreme-courts-new-map-restores-the-states-democracy.html?
The University of Floridaās Michael McDonald, who studies redistricting, pointed to a computer program designed to draw 500 maps that prioritize compactness and ignore partisanship. A majority of the plans it produced had a probable 9ā9 split, just like Persilyās map.
Still, Real Clear Politicsā Sean Trende made a strong case that Persily did draw at least a handful of districts with the goal of making them more competitive. That raises a tricky question: Does Persilyās map constitute its own partisan gerrymander? And, more broadly, should courts ignore politics altogether when theyāre fixing gerrymanders?
In Pennsylvania, the answer is likely noāfor a very specific reason. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court may have emphasized compact districts, but its opinion dove much deeper into the state constitutionās guarantee of āfree and equal elections.ā Partisan gerrymandering, the court wrote, ādilutes the votesā of Pennsylvanians who affiliate with the Democratic Party. āIt is axiomatic,ā the court continued, āthat a diluted vote is not an equal vote, as all voters do not have an equal opportunity to translate their votes into representation.ā Thus, āeach and every Pennsylvania voter must have the same free and equal opportunity to select his or her representatives.ā
The court interpretation of the wording of the state constitution seems almost to imply that a system of proportional representation ought to be in place…
This Slate article makes a couple of interesting points…
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/the-pennsylvania-supreme-courts-new-map-restores-the-states-democracy.html?
The University of Floridaās Michael McDonald, who studies redistricting, pointed to a computer program designed to draw 500 maps that prioritize compactness and ignore partisanship. A majority of the plans it produced had a probable 9ā9 split, just like Persilyās map.
Still, Real Clear Politicsā Sean Trende made a strong case that Persily did draw at least a handful of districts with the goal of making them more competitive. That raises a tricky question: Does Persilyās map constitute its own partisan gerrymander? And, more broadly, should courts ignore politics altogether when theyāre fixing gerrymanders?
In Pennsylvania, the answer is likely noāfor a very specific reason. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court may have emphasized compact districts, but its opinion dove much deeper into the state constitutionās guarantee of āfree and equal elections.ā Partisan gerrymandering, the court wrote, ādilutes the votesā of Pennsylvanians who affiliate with the Democratic Party. āIt is axiomatic,ā the court continued, āthat a diluted vote is not an equal vote, as all voters do not have an equal opportunity to translate their votes into representation.ā Thus, āeach and every Pennsylvania voter must have the same free and equal opportunity to select his or her representatives.ā
The court interpretation of the wording of the state constitution seems almost to imply that a system of proportional representation ought to be in place…
Also worthy of note when considering the brain’s ability to adjust to visual inputs…
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/nov/12/improbable-research-seeing-upside-down
Also worthy of note when considering the brain’s ability to adjust to visual inputs…
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/nov/12/improbable-research-seeing-upside-down
lj-
“but I believe one of the key things about taking depositions is that you should never ask a question if you don’t know what answer you will get.”
That’s a goal at trial, not for depositions (except for expert depos where you have a report to go off of and mostly know where you are going). You should know the answers at trial because you’ve taken open ended discovery and learned what the witness will say (or have statements to impeach them if they change their story).
“That deposition discourse makes the discussion oppositional. It may make for great fireworks, but probably doesn’t help clarify notions and ideas.”
LOL … I have not put on my adversarial advocacy hat and I didn’t see any fireworks. It is oppositional, but that’s the point of debate. Having said that, you don’t see me engaging in ad hominem attacks or questioning the motives or morals of people who disagree with me. Yes, I told russel that I thought he was being colored by partisanship, but that’s nothing compared to what liberals get away with when attacking conservatives around here (being called “child molesters” and “murderers” for their views). For the record, I’m fine if you want to allow a bareknuckled free wheeling verbal battle, but there does seem to be a double standard.
“I know we have a lot of lawyers here, but I hope all of you might consider how asking questions you know the answer to doesn’t really let you learn things about how people think.”
But I didn’t know the answer. I didn’t know what people thought about the PASC’s actions. If I start off by setting out my entire argument, then that colors the responses. What I learned is that most folks have not delved deeply into this (which is fine given the perpetually loaded news cycle that we currently live in).
RE: Japan, my knowledge here is seriously dated, but the level of urban voter dilution dwarfs what we see here in the US by orders of magnitude even after a number of reforms. As I recall, the US drafted Japanese Constitution didn’t have clear (or any) provisions for taking a census and reapportioning voting districts. It also was a difficult document to amend, especially so once you get entrenched rural members of the Diet who have a stake in keeping the system as it was. I think some of the later reforms incorporated proportional voting which is my preferred way to deal with this. It appears that Japan has not gone far enough to fix the problem, but that mostly speaks to how difficult it is to remove entrenched politicians.
The debate really gets down to if you have single-member districts, then urban voters who tend towards one party will be disadvantaged unless you are wiling to draw some “odd” districts. In states like Florida, you can’t do that to the extent that politics must be left out of the equation. Here’s is the amended provision of the Florida Constitution:
I would rank the various proposals as follows: (1) proportional voting; (2) single-member districts with no political influence (3) single-member districts with some level of political influence.
I’m aware that some Dems like #3 currently because they see a Dem wave coinciding with the 2020 census. I think that’s shortsighted.
lj-
“but I believe one of the key things about taking depositions is that you should never ask a question if you don’t know what answer you will get.”
That’s a goal at trial, not for depositions (except for expert depos where you have a report to go off of and mostly know where you are going). You should know the answers at trial because you’ve taken open ended discovery and learned what the witness will say (or have statements to impeach them if they change their story).
“That deposition discourse makes the discussion oppositional. It may make for great fireworks, but probably doesn’t help clarify notions and ideas.”
LOL … I have not put on my adversarial advocacy hat and I didn’t see any fireworks. It is oppositional, but that’s the point of debate. Having said that, you don’t see me engaging in ad hominem attacks or questioning the motives or morals of people who disagree with me. Yes, I told russel that I thought he was being colored by partisanship, but that’s nothing compared to what liberals get away with when attacking conservatives around here (being called “child molesters” and “murderers” for their views). For the record, I’m fine if you want to allow a bareknuckled free wheeling verbal battle, but there does seem to be a double standard.
“I know we have a lot of lawyers here, but I hope all of you might consider how asking questions you know the answer to doesn’t really let you learn things about how people think.”
But I didn’t know the answer. I didn’t know what people thought about the PASC’s actions. If I start off by setting out my entire argument, then that colors the responses. What I learned is that most folks have not delved deeply into this (which is fine given the perpetually loaded news cycle that we currently live in).
RE: Japan, my knowledge here is seriously dated, but the level of urban voter dilution dwarfs what we see here in the US by orders of magnitude even after a number of reforms. As I recall, the US drafted Japanese Constitution didn’t have clear (or any) provisions for taking a census and reapportioning voting districts. It also was a difficult document to amend, especially so once you get entrenched rural members of the Diet who have a stake in keeping the system as it was. I think some of the later reforms incorporated proportional voting which is my preferred way to deal with this. It appears that Japan has not gone far enough to fix the problem, but that mostly speaks to how difficult it is to remove entrenched politicians.
The debate really gets down to if you have single-member districts, then urban voters who tend towards one party will be disadvantaged unless you are wiling to draw some “odd” districts. In states like Florida, you can’t do that to the extent that politics must be left out of the equation. Here’s is the amended provision of the Florida Constitution:
I would rank the various proposals as follows: (1) proportional voting; (2) single-member districts with no political influence (3) single-member districts with some level of political influence.
I’m aware that some Dems like #3 currently because they see a Dem wave coinciding with the 2020 census. I think that’s shortsighted.
I’m aware that some Dems like #3
anybody here?
I’m aware that some Dems like #3
anybody here?
Nigel-
I’ve skimmed the 139 page PASC opinion. The PA Constitution does not have clear guidelines for drawing districts. It’s pretty much “draw them so they have the same population” (compare to the more detailed Florida Constitution provision that I posted above). The PASC relied on the general free elections language from state constitution:
That provided the PASC a very broad field in which to operate and I think they took full advantage; to the point that I’m uncomfortable with it.
Nigel-
I’ve skimmed the 139 page PASC opinion. The PA Constitution does not have clear guidelines for drawing districts. It’s pretty much “draw them so they have the same population” (compare to the more detailed Florida Constitution provision that I posted above). The PASC relied on the general free elections language from state constitution:
That provided the PASC a very broad field in which to operate and I think they took full advantage; to the point that I’m uncomfortable with it.
Pdm: what the PASC seems to have done is allowed fairness to be a consideration, but not to the extent of drawing strange-looking electoral boundaries. I think that within the limitations of single-member constituencies that’s a sensible approach.
I think you got the discussion off to a bad start by using terms like “skewed to the Dems” in the Orwellian sense of “skewed to the Republicans, but less so than a map drawn without considerations of fairness”.
Myself, I have a strong preference for Single Transferrable Vote in multi-member constituencies.
Pdm: what the PASC seems to have done is allowed fairness to be a consideration, but not to the extent of drawing strange-looking electoral boundaries. I think that within the limitations of single-member constituencies that’s a sensible approach.
I think you got the discussion off to a bad start by using terms like “skewed to the Dems” in the Orwellian sense of “skewed to the Republicans, but less so than a map drawn without considerations of fairness”.
Myself, I have a strong preference for Single Transferrable Vote in multi-member constituencies.
Iām unclear on what āfull advantageā is intended to mean.
Iām unclear on what āfull advantageā is intended to mean.
Yes, I told russel that I thought he was being colored by partisanship, but that’s nothing compared to what liberals get away with when attacking conservatives around here (being called “child molesters” and “murderers” for their views).
????
Does the “around here” suggest that any of us libruls have called the conservatives on this site such names? I assume not. So you must mean that we call “conservatives” as a whole child molesters and murderers. With the exception of the Count (the definition of the exception which proves the rule), this seems unlikely to me. Some conservatives, sure. “Conservatives” when referring for rhetorical purposes to the same people who (having supported Roy Moore) decry the 17-year-old school survivors as unable to organise a march, sure. But conservatives as a whole? I think not.
Yes, I told russel that I thought he was being colored by partisanship, but that’s nothing compared to what liberals get away with when attacking conservatives around here (being called “child molesters” and “murderers” for their views).
????
Does the “around here” suggest that any of us libruls have called the conservatives on this site such names? I assume not. So you must mean that we call “conservatives” as a whole child molesters and murderers. With the exception of the Count (the definition of the exception which proves the rule), this seems unlikely to me. Some conservatives, sure. “Conservatives” when referring for rhetorical purposes to the same people who (having supported Roy Moore) decry the 17-year-old school survivors as unable to organise a march, sure. But conservatives as a whole? I think not.
GftNC-
I disagree. It gets phrased as follows: “If you support Republicans then you support child molesters”. No one called Marty or Charles a child molester, but the chilling effect is there.
You can disagree with me, but I definitely feel there is a double standard here.
GftNC-
I disagree. It gets phrased as follows: “If you support Republicans then you support child molesters”. No one called Marty or Charles a child molester, but the chilling effect is there.
You can disagree with me, but I definitely feel there is a double standard here.
“Full advantage” goes more to the procedure and process used by the PASC than the map chosen. The responses to me have completely focused on the map chosen which is understandable given that issue is reducible to math which is favored around here. The procedure used is at least as troubling for me.
“Full advantage” goes more to the procedure and process used by the PASC than the map chosen. The responses to me have completely focused on the map chosen which is understandable given that issue is reducible to math which is favored around here. The procedure used is at least as troubling for me.
PB-
I think your first paragraph is accurate, but I have a problem with elected judges engaging in a political exercise (even if they are engaging in restraint as to how far they go) which has traditionally been the province of the legislature and doing so under an aggressive procedure for which there is no clear constitutional or legislative mandate.
I do come to this with a builtin dislike for electing appellate judges, so factor that in.
From my perspective the debate went fine and I learned what I wanted to learn. And I do believe that the map is skewed. You don’t have to agree with me on that … reasonable minds can differ on that point.
I have no problem with STV other than it would seem to be extra-confusing to an electorate accustomed to single-member voting.
PB-
I think your first paragraph is accurate, but I have a problem with elected judges engaging in a political exercise (even if they are engaging in restraint as to how far they go) which has traditionally been the province of the legislature and doing so under an aggressive procedure for which there is no clear constitutional or legislative mandate.
I do come to this with a builtin dislike for electing appellate judges, so factor that in.
From my perspective the debate went fine and I learned what I wanted to learn. And I do believe that the map is skewed. You don’t have to agree with me on that … reasonable minds can differ on that point.
I have no problem with STV other than it would seem to be extra-confusing to an electorate accustomed to single-member voting.
Scott Lemieux weighs in.
Scott Lemieux weighs in.
bobby-
I’m not defending Pubs in PA in the least or engaging in false equivalencies, but these Dem judges were inviting blowback with the procedure used and map chosen.
I don’t think it is close to impeachable but as someone who is generally concerned about further politicization of the courts, the entire episode bothers me.
bobby-
I’m not defending Pubs in PA in the least or engaging in false equivalencies, but these Dem judges were inviting blowback with the procedure used and map chosen.
I don’t think it is close to impeachable but as someone who is generally concerned about further politicization of the courts, the entire episode bothers me.
the chilling effect is there.
oh please.
criticism is part of life. if criticism is a “chilling effect”, we’d all be buried in ice a mile deep.
the GOP went all-in on an alleged child molester. they deserve every bit of criticism they get.
the chilling effect is there.
oh please.
criticism is part of life. if criticism is a “chilling effect”, we’d all be buried in ice a mile deep.
the GOP went all-in on an alleged child molester. they deserve every bit of criticism they get.
Pollo,
I wasn’t accusing you of ad hominem attacks or questioning the motives or morals of people who disagree with you or all the things you claim that liberals do. That’s a strawman. I was simply pointing out we don’t want efficiency (if we did, why would we bother trying to change people’s minds?), it is a discussion that tries to have everyone learn new things, rather than worry about being ‘skeeved’.
It is oppositional, but that’s the point of debate.
I’m sure that the people who answered your question didn’t think they were taking a side in a debate, they were just saying why they did not feel morally repulsed by what had happened. If you want to argue that their lack of moral revulsion at the redrawing of the Pa. electoral boundaries represents some abdication of morality, you should be honest and say that is what you are getting at, not try to frame it as a gotcha question. You say that you wanted to know what people thought, but I believe that you would get a much more interesting answer if you stated up front what you thought rather than waiting until people expressed their views. While you may not have wanted to play gotcha, that’s what it comes out looking like and all this concern with the procedure used makes me wonder if there was any procedure that would have resulted in the proposed map that would be acceptable to you. Because, as you acknowledge, the map is fine, it’s just the procedure they went thru to get to it. Given that the Republicans are now threatening to impeach 5 of the judges, I don’t think there is any procedure that gets their participation and approval if the result is that map.
Looking at the history of redistricting in PA
https://ballotpedia.org/Redistricting_in_Pennsylvania_after_the_2010_census
I really don’t see how being ‘morally repulsed’ at this point and not back then works, though I guess if you deny math in drawing the map, there’s not much else left to use.
Pollo,
I wasn’t accusing you of ad hominem attacks or questioning the motives or morals of people who disagree with you or all the things you claim that liberals do. That’s a strawman. I was simply pointing out we don’t want efficiency (if we did, why would we bother trying to change people’s minds?), it is a discussion that tries to have everyone learn new things, rather than worry about being ‘skeeved’.
It is oppositional, but that’s the point of debate.
I’m sure that the people who answered your question didn’t think they were taking a side in a debate, they were just saying why they did not feel morally repulsed by what had happened. If you want to argue that their lack of moral revulsion at the redrawing of the Pa. electoral boundaries represents some abdication of morality, you should be honest and say that is what you are getting at, not try to frame it as a gotcha question. You say that you wanted to know what people thought, but I believe that you would get a much more interesting answer if you stated up front what you thought rather than waiting until people expressed their views. While you may not have wanted to play gotcha, that’s what it comes out looking like and all this concern with the procedure used makes me wonder if there was any procedure that would have resulted in the proposed map that would be acceptable to you. Because, as you acknowledge, the map is fine, it’s just the procedure they went thru to get to it. Given that the Republicans are now threatening to impeach 5 of the judges, I don’t think there is any procedure that gets their participation and approval if the result is that map.
Looking at the history of redistricting in PA
https://ballotpedia.org/Redistricting_in_Pennsylvania_after_the_2010_census
I really don’t see how being ‘morally repulsed’ at this point and not back then works, though I guess if you deny math in drawing the map, there’s not much else left to use.
I told russel
two l’s in russell.
not a big thing, i’ve just never met or even heard of a russell who spelled their name with one l.
i’m curious to know where the idea of districts came from in the first place. i don’t see it in article II, which basically calls on states to make their own rules.
why districts in the first place? why are they good?
I told russel
two l’s in russell.
not a big thing, i’ve just never met or even heard of a russell who spelled their name with one l.
i’m curious to know where the idea of districts came from in the first place. i don’t see it in article II, which basically calls on states to make their own rules.
why districts in the first place? why are they good?
I believe federal law requires that congresspeople be elected in single member districts. Not that that makes them good or anything
I believe federal law requires that congresspeople be elected in single member districts. Not that that makes them good or anything
but as someone who is generally concerned about further politicization of the courts
This presumes there was a time when “the courts” were “less politicized” which is, frankly, a ridiculous claim.
but these Dem judges were inviting blowback
And the GOP gerrymander did not?
but as someone who is generally concerned about further politicization of the courts
This presumes there was a time when “the courts” were “less politicized” which is, frankly, a ridiculous claim.
but these Dem judges were inviting blowback
And the GOP gerrymander did not?
the history of districts.
tl;dr : pre 1842, some states did at-large reps, some did single-rep districts (what we have now). since then, Congress has passed a bunch of laws over the years to require single-rep districts.
one benefit: if reps were elected at-large, majorities would totally shut-out minorities.
the history of districts.
tl;dr : pre 1842, some states did at-large reps, some did single-rep districts (what we have now). since then, Congress has passed a bunch of laws over the years to require single-rep districts.
one benefit: if reps were elected at-large, majorities would totally shut-out minorities.
If you support Republicans then you support child molesters
if i’m not mistaken, that would have been in the context of roy moore’s bid for the senate. and, in that context, was not exactly untrue.
conservatives are outnumbered here at this point, and i’m sure that’s not always a comfortable place to be. i’m also sure that they feel abused at times, and i’m sure that’s justified at times.
i took no offense at your assumption of partisanship on my part, i just found it to be, as a form of argument, profoundly weak beer.
i could, in response, say that you’re just splitting hairs, baiting your counterparties, and dragging out a discussion unnecessarily, because you’re an attorney and are therefore less interested in understanding the situation and people’s thoughts about it, and more interested in Winning The Argument.
maybe that would be, as an argument, weak beer as well. i’m not sure.
as far as redistricting, i am more than fine with any approach that results in representation in the House that reflects the sentiments of the people. full stop. i think we’re utterly unlikely to get that result if district lines are drawn by parties. so IMO someone else should do it.
as far as PA, the new map looks, plainly, more sensible than the old one. so my reaction is “well done”. i don’t live in PA so i don’t really have much more to say about it.
If you support Republicans then you support child molesters
if i’m not mistaken, that would have been in the context of roy moore’s bid for the senate. and, in that context, was not exactly untrue.
conservatives are outnumbered here at this point, and i’m sure that’s not always a comfortable place to be. i’m also sure that they feel abused at times, and i’m sure that’s justified at times.
i took no offense at your assumption of partisanship on my part, i just found it to be, as a form of argument, profoundly weak beer.
i could, in response, say that you’re just splitting hairs, baiting your counterparties, and dragging out a discussion unnecessarily, because you’re an attorney and are therefore less interested in understanding the situation and people’s thoughts about it, and more interested in Winning The Argument.
maybe that would be, as an argument, weak beer as well. i’m not sure.
as far as redistricting, i am more than fine with any approach that results in representation in the House that reflects the sentiments of the people. full stop. i think we’re utterly unlikely to get that result if district lines are drawn by parties. so IMO someone else should do it.
as far as PA, the new map looks, plainly, more sensible than the old one. so my reaction is “well done”. i don’t live in PA so i don’t really have much more to say about it.
ugh and cleek, thanks for the information.
if reps were elected at-large, majorities would totally shut-out minorities.
what if at-large seats were awarded proportional to party? either as registered, or as votes cast?
ugh and cleek, thanks for the information.
if reps were elected at-large, majorities would totally shut-out minorities.
what if at-large seats were awarded proportional to party? either as registered, or as votes cast?
IMO, one of the big problems we have is that the current population to rep ratio is nuts. it was 1:34,000 in 1800. now it’s 1:709000.
and one person can’t really represent the specific interests of 700,000 people – there’s no chance for any kind of homogeneity with that many people. it’s bigger than the population of Seattle.
increasing the number of reps by a factor of ten would allow reps to get closer to, and would allow them to represent the specific interests, of their constituents. it would allow for more homogeneity within districts.
(yes, we would have to build new offices in DC.)
IMO, one of the big problems we have is that the current population to rep ratio is nuts. it was 1:34,000 in 1800. now it’s 1:709000.
and one person can’t really represent the specific interests of 700,000 people – there’s no chance for any kind of homogeneity with that many people. it’s bigger than the population of Seattle.
increasing the number of reps by a factor of ten would allow reps to get closer to, and would allow them to represent the specific interests, of their constituents. it would allow for more homogeneity within districts.
(yes, we would have to build new offices in DC.)
bobby-
“This presumes there was a time when “the courts” were “less politicized” which is, frankly, a ridiculous claim.”
I disagree and feel that has gotten worse and is trending in a bad direction; especially at the state level.
bobby-
“This presumes there was a time when “the courts” were “less politicized” which is, frankly, a ridiculous claim.”
I disagree and feel that has gotten worse and is trending in a bad direction; especially at the state level.
russell-
The partisanship dig was weak sauce … in fact I thought it was a throwaway line. You tried to escalate it to a claim of “bad faith”; GftNC couched it in terms of self righteousness and lp also called foul. I’m not the one who keeps bringing it up.
Also, I’m not trying to “win an argument”. The median age here has to be north of 55 and political views are largely calcified. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind (that would be an exercise in masochistic windmill tilting), but I am interested in how people rationalize/justify/defend their positions. That’s all I’m trying to get at.
That’s why I ask open ended non-leading questions (which is what you do in discovery) as opposed to narrow leading questions (which is what you do with hostile witnesses in court).
russell-
The partisanship dig was weak sauce … in fact I thought it was a throwaway line. You tried to escalate it to a claim of “bad faith”; GftNC couched it in terms of self righteousness and lp also called foul. I’m not the one who keeps bringing it up.
Also, I’m not trying to “win an argument”. The median age here has to be north of 55 and political views are largely calcified. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind (that would be an exercise in masochistic windmill tilting), but I am interested in how people rationalize/justify/defend their positions. That’s all I’m trying to get at.
That’s why I ask open ended non-leading questions (which is what you do in discovery) as opposed to narrow leading questions (which is what you do with hostile witnesses in court).
Your feelings are no persuasive and “bad direction” is undefined.
Some evidence is called for.
At the federal level, I could let you pick any era, and I could cite cases that were “political”.
To assert it is or was any different at the state level defies belief.
Furthermore, the repeated use of the word “political” as a pejorative modifier really skeeves me.
š
Your feelings are no persuasive and “bad direction” is undefined.
Some evidence is called for.
At the federal level, I could let you pick any era, and I could cite cases that were “political”.
To assert it is or was any different at the state level defies belief.
Furthermore, the repeated use of the word “political” as a pejorative modifier really skeeves me.
š
russell, PdeM, etc.
Looking in detail at the “old” PA map, the map proposed by PA Dems, and the map tyrannically* imposed by the PASC (with Tyranny!*), the PASC map is better than either.
That’s not looking at “who wins, who loses”, it’s geography.
Now, prior to the rulings came down, I played around with the 538 interactive app: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-maps/pennsylvania/
The PASC map looks a lot like ‘compact, follow county boundaries’.
russell, PdeM, etc.
Looking in detail at the “old” PA map, the map proposed by PA Dems, and the map tyrannically* imposed by the PASC (with Tyranny!*), the PASC map is better than either.
That’s not looking at “who wins, who loses”, it’s geography.
Now, prior to the rulings came down, I played around with the 538 interactive app: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-maps/pennsylvania/
The PASC map looks a lot like ‘compact, follow county boundaries’.
voronoi tilings at the state level, based on points of greatest population density in each state, one point per house seat
Parochial git that I am, I always think about how things would work in Colorado (seven Congressional districts). I note in passing that almost all examples of Voronoi tiling that you see online have the seeds pretty widely scattered. OTOH, here are two views of a prism map of Colorado at the county level, the first as seen from the SW, the other from the SE. The height of each prism indicates the county’s overall population density. Yellow indicates the seven densest. With an added constraint on choosing the seven densest points of no more than one per county, these are where the seeds will be.
It’s actually worse than it looks in the map. Excepting the two densest counties, each has large areas that are sparsely populated. All of the seeds are going to be in a strip along the Front Range perhaps 80 miles long and 20 miles wide.
During the 2010 redistricting, someone submitted (for fun) a proposed map with pie-slice districts that likely gave the Dems a 5-2 advantage. There was a pretty good chance that if that were the actual map, you could draw a circle maybe 40 miles in diameter that would include the homes of all five of the Dems.
voronoi tilings at the state level, based on points of greatest population density in each state, one point per house seat
Parochial git that I am, I always think about how things would work in Colorado (seven Congressional districts). I note in passing that almost all examples of Voronoi tiling that you see online have the seeds pretty widely scattered. OTOH, here are two views of a prism map of Colorado at the county level, the first as seen from the SW, the other from the SE. The height of each prism indicates the county’s overall population density. Yellow indicates the seven densest. With an added constraint on choosing the seven densest points of no more than one per county, these are where the seeds will be.
It’s actually worse than it looks in the map. Excepting the two densest counties, each has large areas that are sparsely populated. All of the seeds are going to be in a strip along the Front Range perhaps 80 miles long and 20 miles wide.
During the 2010 redistricting, someone submitted (for fun) a proposed map with pie-slice districts that likely gave the Dems a 5-2 advantage. There was a pretty good chance that if that were the actual map, you could draw a circle maybe 40 miles in diameter that would include the homes of all five of the Dems.
You tried to escalate it to a claim of “bad faith”
I say X. You claim I’m saying X, but really mean Y.
Everybody has their particular set of things that bug them. Mine includes people telling me I’m really not saying what I’m saying.
FYI, make of it what you will.
You tried to escalate it to a claim of “bad faith”
I say X. You claim I’m saying X, but really mean Y.
Everybody has their particular set of things that bug them. Mine includes people telling me I’m really not saying what I’m saying.
FYI, make of it what you will.
Also worthy of note when considering the brain’s ability to adjust to visual inputs…
Hardly surprising, really. After all, the image on the retina IS upside-down.
Also worthy of note when considering the brain’s ability to adjust to visual inputs…
Hardly surprising, really. After all, the image on the retina IS upside-down.
My personal solution to the PdM phenomenon when it first revealed itself last August:
I foresee that there’s going to be no end to the hair-splitting pedantry, so I won’t respond again.
I find it much more sanity-preserving than sliding down the rabbit hole.
In the words of my old conflict resolution guru (whose lessons I didn’t learn nearly well enough), “Don’t bite hooks.”
In the words of blogland, “Don’t feed the trolls.” I don’t consider PdM a troll in the usual sense, but the effect is quite similar, and the plea is rarely heeded anyhow.
My personal solution to the PdM phenomenon when it first revealed itself last August:
I foresee that there’s going to be no end to the hair-splitting pedantry, so I won’t respond again.
I find it much more sanity-preserving than sliding down the rabbit hole.
In the words of my old conflict resolution guru (whose lessons I didn’t learn nearly well enough), “Don’t bite hooks.”
In the words of blogland, “Don’t feed the trolls.” I don’t consider PdM a troll in the usual sense, but the effect is quite similar, and the plea is rarely heeded anyhow.
the GOP went all-in on an alleged child molester. they deserve every bit of criticism they get.
Cleek, I think it’s worth distinguishing between the GOP as a party (which does not, I think, include anybody here) and individual Republicans. At least the ones here seem to be every bit as appalled by Mr Moore as the Democrats here.
the GOP went all-in on an alleged child molester. they deserve every bit of criticism they get.
Cleek, I think it’s worth distinguishing between the GOP as a party (which does not, I think, include anybody here) and individual Republicans. At least the ones here seem to be every bit as appalled by Mr Moore as the Democrats here.
The older I get, the more I seem to need a conflict resolution guru.
My approach increasingly tends to be “bugger off”, which doesn’t always seem to be productive.
This is less (or not at all) in reference to Pollo, more in reference to head-butting at work. Everybody thinks they’re a genius, it’s annoying.
The older I get, the more I seem to need a conflict resolution guru.
My approach increasingly tends to be “bugger off”, which doesn’t always seem to be productive.
This is less (or not at all) in reference to Pollo, more in reference to head-butting at work. Everybody thinks they’re a genius, it’s annoying.
There’s a claim of splitting hairs without pointing to the actual hairs.
In any event, there’s an easy curative for whatever angst I’ve visited upon this place.
There’s a claim of splitting hairs without pointing to the actual hairs.
In any event, there’s an easy curative for whatever angst I’ve visited upon this place.
Cleek, I think it’s worth distinguishing between the GOP as a party (which does not, I think, include anybody here) and individual Republicans.
of course.
it’s worth thinking about what it means to continue to identify with a party that would do such a thing, too.
Cleek, I think it’s worth distinguishing between the GOP as a party (which does not, I think, include anybody here) and individual Republicans.
of course.
it’s worth thinking about what it means to continue to identify with a party that would do such a thing, too.
I agree that “gerrymander” has baggage. What you are suggesting is that lines be drawn that deprioritize existing political boundaries and compactness for a political result (creating single-member districts that better reflect the political makeup of the state at large).
I’d call it an equitable result.
Look, the consequence of all this compactness, etc. is that the state delegation is unrepresentative of the state’s voters.
Why is that desirable? Say you have four districts with equal population. One is 90% D and the others are 45% D. So taken together the population is 56.25% Democratic, yet Democrats have only one of the four seats.
This is desirable? This is a system where Congress represents the will of the people? No. It’s not, and no amount of theoretical blather can change that.
I agree that “gerrymander” has baggage. What you are suggesting is that lines be drawn that deprioritize existing political boundaries and compactness for a political result (creating single-member districts that better reflect the political makeup of the state at large).
I’d call it an equitable result.
Look, the consequence of all this compactness, etc. is that the state delegation is unrepresentative of the state’s voters.
Why is that desirable? Say you have four districts with equal population. One is 90% D and the others are 45% D. So taken together the population is 56.25% Democratic, yet Democrats have only one of the four seats.
This is desirable? This is a system where Congress represents the will of the people? No. It’s not, and no amount of theoretical blather can change that.
I hear the Russkis are pretty good at impersonating regular Murkins on the internet. Rile’em up over “process” if you can’t get’em to disagree about anything else. Not saying Pollo de Muerte is necessarily a Putin bot, but I have to suspect him right along with the rest of y’all. To be fair, y’all have to suspect me too. See how it works?
–TP
I hear the Russkis are pretty good at impersonating regular Murkins on the internet. Rile’em up over “process” if you can’t get’em to disagree about anything else. Not saying Pollo de Muerte is necessarily a Putin bot, but I have to suspect him right along with the rest of y’all. To be fair, y’all have to suspect me too. See how it works?
–TP
Hardly surprising, really. After all, the image on the retina IS upside-down..
Quite – but what the experiment did was give some basis for assessing the speed of adjustment to a gross change in sensory input.
I have a feeling that one of the reasons one tends (or at least I do) to remember colours from childhood as being more vivid is that the brain is less acclimatised to adjusting to the daily and seasonal changes in light quality…
Another fun exercise in photoshop is to look at the blue channel of a photo of someone’s face. The skin looks awful.
Normally that information is completely drowned out by the far greater quantity and more uniform reflected red light which shows up far fewer imperfections.
Hardly surprising, really. After all, the image on the retina IS upside-down..
Quite – but what the experiment did was give some basis for assessing the speed of adjustment to a gross change in sensory input.
I have a feeling that one of the reasons one tends (or at least I do) to remember colours from childhood as being more vivid is that the brain is less acclimatised to adjusting to the daily and seasonal changes in light quality…
Another fun exercise in photoshop is to look at the blue channel of a photo of someone’s face. The skin looks awful.
Normally that information is completely drowned out by the far greater quantity and more uniform reflected red light which shows up far fewer imperfections.
here are two views of a prism map of Colorado at the county level
First, allow me to say that you bring the best maps ever.
Yes, typical examples of voronoi tiling have seed points that are not clustered. I agree that if we want to draw districts where the seed points aren’t all in one county, that could be difficult or impossible in places where the population is actually centered in one, or a small number of, locations.
I’m sure that that is only one of many possible reasons that it wouldn’t be a workable approach. And I doubt we’ll ever adopt it. If for no other reason than “Voronoi” sounds like a race of space aliens.
The thing that’s attractive about it, to me, is that you’d probably end up with districts that all had similar proportions of urban to rural residents. So there would be less likelihood of one point of view dominating any given district.
What I would hope would come out of that would be candidates who were less likely to be single-issue, or extreme partisans. Might not work out that way, I don’t know.
Basically I think we’re stuck with what we got, and we just have to make the best of it.
here are two views of a prism map of Colorado at the county level
First, allow me to say that you bring the best maps ever.
Yes, typical examples of voronoi tiling have seed points that are not clustered. I agree that if we want to draw districts where the seed points aren’t all in one county, that could be difficult or impossible in places where the population is actually centered in one, or a small number of, locations.
I’m sure that that is only one of many possible reasons that it wouldn’t be a workable approach. And I doubt we’ll ever adopt it. If for no other reason than “Voronoi” sounds like a race of space aliens.
The thing that’s attractive about it, to me, is that you’d probably end up with districts that all had similar proportions of urban to rural residents. So there would be less likelihood of one point of view dominating any given district.
What I would hope would come out of that would be candidates who were less likely to be single-issue, or extreme partisans. Might not work out that way, I don’t know.
Basically I think we’re stuck with what we got, and we just have to make the best of it.
The thing that’s attractive about it, to me, is that you’d probably end up with districts that all had similar proportions of urban to rural residents. So there would be less likelihood of one point of view dominating any given district.
this seems odd to me.
why wouldn’t you want a point of view to dominate a district? seems to me that a representative should be someone who represents everyone in the district; and if the district is split between people who think one thing and people who think another, half of them aren’t going to be represented very well. having a district that is consolidated enough that it can elect a representative who can actually represent all the people should be the goal.
IMO.
is this wrong?
The thing that’s attractive about it, to me, is that you’d probably end up with districts that all had similar proportions of urban to rural residents. So there would be less likelihood of one point of view dominating any given district.
this seems odd to me.
why wouldn’t you want a point of view to dominate a district? seems to me that a representative should be someone who represents everyone in the district; and if the district is split between people who think one thing and people who think another, half of them aren’t going to be represented very well. having a district that is consolidated enough that it can elect a representative who can actually represent all the people should be the goal.
IMO.
is this wrong?
adding …
the problem with partisan gerrymandering is that it tries to consolidate districts with one POV and then to dilute all others so they can’t be represented.
adding …
the problem with partisan gerrymandering is that it tries to consolidate districts with one POV and then to dilute all others so they can’t be represented.
the problem with partisan gerrymandering is that it tries to consolidate districts with one POV and then to dilute all others so they can’t be represented.
Which takes up back to the Court’s position on free and equal – ā…that a diluted vote is not an equal vote, as all voters do not have an equal opportunity to translate their votes into representation…ā
the problem with partisan gerrymandering is that it tries to consolidate districts with one POV and then to dilute all others so they can’t be represented.
Which takes up back to the Court’s position on free and equal – ā…that a diluted vote is not an equal vote, as all voters do not have an equal opportunity to translate their votes into representation…ā
this seems odd to me.
I guess my sense is that, absent concentrating people who all think the same way into the same districts, people would have to actually deal with each other. Candidates, and also their constituents.
Allow me to try to explain my point of view here with an anecdote.
FWIW, my wife and I attend a UU church. In Salem MA. If you are looking for liberal do-gooder orthodoxy, you will surely find it there.
There’s another UU church out in the middle of the state somewhere. I forget the exact town, but it’s out of the Boston/Cambridge orbit, and also out of the Amherst/Northampton orbit. It’s a hill town out in the middle of the state.
The folks who attend that church cover the gamut from hippie liberal kum-ba-ya Birkenstock wearing aging flower children, to full-on Trumpers. I mean really fully-on.
The minister from that church has spoken at ours a few times, and also writes for the UUA publication now and then. She sees a big part of her mission as finding ways for the people in her congregation who hold very very disparate points of view to actually respect love and *hear* each other.
It’s a big lift. She’s kind of low-key saint, in my book, because she is absolutely dedicated to respecting every point of view.
And the things she says and writes have a kind of weight that isn’t always found in things that folks who are surrounded by folks who think just like them say and write. Because they’ve been tested. They’ve had to pass about a million bullshit meters, and had to account for the wishes and interests of a hundred different points of view.
So, something like that at the political level might be nice.
I don’t know if it would work or not.
this seems odd to me.
I guess my sense is that, absent concentrating people who all think the same way into the same districts, people would have to actually deal with each other. Candidates, and also their constituents.
Allow me to try to explain my point of view here with an anecdote.
FWIW, my wife and I attend a UU church. In Salem MA. If you are looking for liberal do-gooder orthodoxy, you will surely find it there.
There’s another UU church out in the middle of the state somewhere. I forget the exact town, but it’s out of the Boston/Cambridge orbit, and also out of the Amherst/Northampton orbit. It’s a hill town out in the middle of the state.
The folks who attend that church cover the gamut from hippie liberal kum-ba-ya Birkenstock wearing aging flower children, to full-on Trumpers. I mean really fully-on.
The minister from that church has spoken at ours a few times, and also writes for the UUA publication now and then. She sees a big part of her mission as finding ways for the people in her congregation who hold very very disparate points of view to actually respect love and *hear* each other.
It’s a big lift. She’s kind of low-key saint, in my book, because she is absolutely dedicated to respecting every point of view.
And the things she says and writes have a kind of weight that isn’t always found in things that folks who are surrounded by folks who think just like them say and write. Because they’ve been tested. They’ve had to pass about a million bullshit meters, and had to account for the wishes and interests of a hundred different points of view.
So, something like that at the political level might be nice.
I don’t know if it would work or not.
also, too, QOTD from here:
Not my favorite guy, far from it actually, but I believe he has nailed the point.
also, too, QOTD from here:
Not my favorite guy, far from it actually, but I believe he has nailed the point.
First, allow me to say that you bring the best maps ever.
Thank you. Hand-crafted artisanal thematic maps, produced with home-built command-line tools. You should see the simple animated bits I’ve been playing with recently :^)
I’ve been thinking about the best way to make the tools more widely available. It’s straightforward to set up the environment on things vaguely Unix-like (MacOS, Linux, etc). Windows is harder.
First, allow me to say that you bring the best maps ever.
Thank you. Hand-crafted artisanal thematic maps, produced with home-built command-line tools. You should see the simple animated bits I’ve been playing with recently :^)
I’ve been thinking about the best way to make the tools more widely available. It’s straightforward to set up the environment on things vaguely Unix-like (MacOS, Linux, etc). Windows is harder.
I’m not at all surprised by the seeing upside down business.
Have you ever used a view camera? This is the kind you see in western movies, where the photographer goes under a focusing cloth to shut out the light while framing and focusing the image as it is projected on a piece of ground glass on the rear of the camera.
The image you see on the glass is upside down and backwards, yet it takes almost no time for a new view camera user to adjust, and be completely comfortable working with images that way. (That’s what lenses do. SLR cameras have an arrangement of mirrors to make the image in the viewfinder right side up.)
I’m not at all surprised by the seeing upside down business.
Have you ever used a view camera? This is the kind you see in western movies, where the photographer goes under a focusing cloth to shut out the light while framing and focusing the image as it is projected on a piece of ground glass on the rear of the camera.
The image you see on the glass is upside down and backwards, yet it takes almost no time for a new view camera user to adjust, and be completely comfortable working with images that way. (That’s what lenses do. SLR cameras have an arrangement of mirrors to make the image in the viewfinder right side up.)
Let’s stop the hairsplitting.
Under current institutional arrangements, we have in this country a binary two party system. One of those parties has become increasingly ideological and extreme. It has also exhibited no shame when it comes to overturning what used to be generally understood norms of public political behavior. It nakedly seeks power, and broadly speaking, the following:
1. An ethnonationalist state based on white “Christian” identity.
2. The expansion of unfettered unilateral private and corporate power over the workplace.
3. The destruction and/or elimination of the Public Commons.
4. The elimination of the public safety net.
5. A militaristic “my way or the highway” foreign policy backed by a military that poisons the well of domestic policy decision making and absorbs an outlandish amount of our collective economic effort.
The opposition party needs to wake up and see these folks for what they are, call them out on it, and defeat them.
Utterly.
Even some libertarians are becoming aware of the stakes.
They are f*cking huge.
Opposing this vile effort is politics…politics at its most import.
Let’s stop the hairsplitting.
Under current institutional arrangements, we have in this country a binary two party system. One of those parties has become increasingly ideological and extreme. It has also exhibited no shame when it comes to overturning what used to be generally understood norms of public political behavior. It nakedly seeks power, and broadly speaking, the following:
1. An ethnonationalist state based on white “Christian” identity.
2. The expansion of unfettered unilateral private and corporate power over the workplace.
3. The destruction and/or elimination of the Public Commons.
4. The elimination of the public safety net.
5. A militaristic “my way or the highway” foreign policy backed by a military that poisons the well of domestic policy decision making and absorbs an outlandish amount of our collective economic effort.
The opposition party needs to wake up and see these folks for what they are, call them out on it, and defeat them.
Utterly.
Even some libertarians are becoming aware of the stakes.
They are f*cking huge.
Opposing this vile effort is politics…politics at its most import.
The GOP-NRA blood cult loves the high-deductible concept w.r.t. gun safety as well as health insurance, apparently.
As articulated by He, Trump and the despicable Wayne LaPierre, the proper state of affairs ought to be:
1) Assault weapons should be available to the public; and
2) Some teachers should be armed with concealed handguns.
Assuming (but can we assume it?) that these Moloch worshipers do not advocate for gun-toting teachers to shoot the bad guys before they start killing people, there’s only one way to make sense of the Trump-LaPierre prescription for school safety: the first 5-10 dead kids are the deductible on their Freedom!(TM) policy. What the maximum out-of-pocket cost may be is unspecified.
Make America Decent Again. Tell a gun nut to go fuck himself.
–TP
The GOP-NRA blood cult loves the high-deductible concept w.r.t. gun safety as well as health insurance, apparently.
As articulated by He, Trump and the despicable Wayne LaPierre, the proper state of affairs ought to be:
1) Assault weapons should be available to the public; and
2) Some teachers should be armed with concealed handguns.
Assuming (but can we assume it?) that these Moloch worshipers do not advocate for gun-toting teachers to shoot the bad guys before they start killing people, there’s only one way to make sense of the Trump-LaPierre prescription for school safety: the first 5-10 dead kids are the deductible on their Freedom!(TM) policy. What the maximum out-of-pocket cost may be is unspecified.
Make America Decent Again. Tell a gun nut to go fuck himself.
–TP
“Don’t bite hooks.”
I can’t remember if I said it then, but I thought it, and I certainly think it now: this is truly excellent advice, to be borne in mind (if one can remember it) in many, many situations.
(This comment does not particularly relate to PdeM).
“Don’t bite hooks.”
I can’t remember if I said it then, but I thought it, and I certainly think it now: this is truly excellent advice, to be borne in mind (if one can remember it) in many, many situations.
(This comment does not particularly relate to PdeM).
Also, and not for the first time, what Tony P just said.
Also, and not for the first time, what Tony P just said.
The latest wonderful bit of analysis(?) from our Dear Leader:
As a resident of California, I beg leave to doubt that we would be begging for Immigration Enforcement to return. (Customs Enforcement might be a different deal. But the opportunity to try real free trade might be interesting….)
And then there’s the bit of the President’s oath of office about taking care “that the laws be faithfully executed.” Not that that particular line has ever seemed to concern Trump much.
The latest wonderful bit of analysis(?) from our Dear Leader:
As a resident of California, I beg leave to doubt that we would be begging for Immigration Enforcement to return. (Customs Enforcement might be a different deal. But the opportunity to try real free trade might be interesting….)
And then there’s the bit of the President’s oath of office about taking care “that the laws be faithfully executed.” Not that that particular line has ever seemed to concern Trump much.
“And then there’s the bit of the President’s oath of office about taking care “that the laws be faithfully executed.””
The thread that keeps on giving.
Bless your little heart. Do you want him to do this or not? Because California doesn’t seem big on supporting it.
“And then there’s the bit of the President’s oath of office about taking care “that the laws be faithfully executed.””
The thread that keeps on giving.
Bless your little heart. Do you want him to do this or not? Because California doesn’t seem big on supporting it.
California is declining to expend state (or, in some cases, local) resources doing the ICE’s job of enforcing Federal law. Due to some serious reservations about the way ICE is doing it. But we have been quite clear that absolutely nothing is being done to impede ICE doing its job; just no effort to doing it for them.
Think of it as federalism in action: the federal government enforces federal law, the state enforces state law.
California is declining to expend state (or, in some cases, local) resources doing the ICE’s job of enforcing Federal law. Due to some serious reservations about the way ICE is doing it. But we have been quite clear that absolutely nothing is being done to impede ICE doing its job; just no effort to doing it for them.
Think of it as federalism in action: the federal government enforces federal law, the state enforces state law.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/27/politics/secret-service-trump-nra-guns/index.html
Why can’t teachers and student survivors of NRA mayhem carry at mp’s NRA addresses?
What bobbyp, Tony P and GftNCdropthep said.
More later* on my use of the term “murderers” around here, but I don’t believe Pollo de muerto was in any way trolling with his comments regarding gerrymandering in PA, regardless of my opinion about those comments, as yet unexpressed, though maybe he was a little sensitive about the push back.
I will be sorely aggrieved if hismostfowlness decides to leave or cut back his commentary here.
Also, I don’t believe he is, in his meat life, literally a dead chicken.
*Later might as well be now. Within the context of “I’m sure no one approves of some of my name-calling around here” and since their names were invoked, I would never insult Charles WT, as he surely would be, by calling him a republican. As for Marty, he has enough trouble with exclusionary, absolutist republicans regarding him as a RINO for what I and they take to be his relatively moderate views on gun control without worrying much about what I’m going about.
I’ll throw in MCTX too. His completely tolerant views on gay marriage and his condemnation of everything mp, including his remarks awhile ago about the tax bill, must make him seem a raving lunatic liberal to the hardcore right wing now ascendant in the republican party.
In fact, there is no one commenting here at the moment who is a republican** in good standing by the insane standards of that party, so murderer and child molester and all of my other favorite epithets, including republican, don’t apply.
That goes for Sebastian and Slart too, if the latter ever gets done hog-splitting and decides to resume hair-splitting around here.
No, the murderers and child molesters left OBWI as a group in a huff years ago when Redstate was born.
**I use the term “conservative” interchangeably with republican, but only to stress my position that the very language has been poisoned by those who run the modern anti-modernity conservative republican movement, so maybe decent people should find new words to describe themselves.
None of this means of course that friends can’t occasionally tell each other to fuck off or take different sides in the looming Civil War #2 brewing.
Ask John Jay.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/27/politics/secret-service-trump-nra-guns/index.html
Why can’t teachers and student survivors of NRA mayhem carry at mp’s NRA addresses?
What bobbyp, Tony P and GftNCdropthep said.
More later* on my use of the term “murderers” around here, but I don’t believe Pollo de muerto was in any way trolling with his comments regarding gerrymandering in PA, regardless of my opinion about those comments, as yet unexpressed, though maybe he was a little sensitive about the push back.
I will be sorely aggrieved if hismostfowlness decides to leave or cut back his commentary here.
Also, I don’t believe he is, in his meat life, literally a dead chicken.
*Later might as well be now. Within the context of “I’m sure no one approves of some of my name-calling around here” and since their names were invoked, I would never insult Charles WT, as he surely would be, by calling him a republican. As for Marty, he has enough trouble with exclusionary, absolutist republicans regarding him as a RINO for what I and they take to be his relatively moderate views on gun control without worrying much about what I’m going about.
I’ll throw in MCTX too. His completely tolerant views on gay marriage and his condemnation of everything mp, including his remarks awhile ago about the tax bill, must make him seem a raving lunatic liberal to the hardcore right wing now ascendant in the republican party.
In fact, there is no one commenting here at the moment who is a republican** in good standing by the insane standards of that party, so murderer and child molester and all of my other favorite epithets, including republican, don’t apply.
That goes for Sebastian and Slart too, if the latter ever gets done hog-splitting and decides to resume hair-splitting around here.
No, the murderers and child molesters left OBWI as a group in a huff years ago when Redstate was born.
**I use the term “conservative” interchangeably with republican, but only to stress my position that the very language has been poisoned by those who run the modern anti-modernity conservative republican movement, so maybe decent people should find new words to describe themselves.
None of this means of course that friends can’t occasionally tell each other to fuck off or take different sides in the looming Civil War #2 brewing.
Ask John Jay.
“And then there’s the bit of the President’s oath of office about taking care “that the laws be faithfully executed.”
What laws? What faithfulness?
http://ok-cleek.com/blogs/?p=27601
“And then there’s the bit of the President’s oath of office about taking care “that the laws be faithfully executed.”
What laws? What faithfulness?
http://ok-cleek.com/blogs/?p=27601
but I don’t believe Pollo de muerto was in any way trolling with his comments regarding gerrymandering in PA
Me, neither.
I will be sorely aggrieved if hismostfowlness decides to leave or cut back his commentary here.
Same here. I found the fuss over PdMās commentary a bit perplexing, even though I joined in the debate. But my sensibilities can sometimes be like those of someone who was just hit in the head with an iron skillet, so I may be missing something.
but I don’t believe Pollo de muerto was in any way trolling with his comments regarding gerrymandering in PA
Me, neither.
I will be sorely aggrieved if hismostfowlness decides to leave or cut back his commentary here.
Same here. I found the fuss over PdMās commentary a bit perplexing, even though I joined in the debate. But my sensibilities can sometimes be like those of someone who was just hit in the head with an iron skillet, so I may be missing something.
Or to quote bobbyp’s manifesto:
“It has also exhibited no shame when it comes to overturning what used to be generally understood norms of public political behavior. It nakedly seeks power, and broadly speaking, the following:
1. An ethnonationalist state based on white “Christian” identity.”
Or to quote bobbyp’s manifesto:
“It has also exhibited no shame when it comes to overturning what used to be generally understood norms of public political behavior. It nakedly seeks power, and broadly speaking, the following:
1. An ethnonationalist state based on white “Christian” identity.”
Carmen Marie Schentrup
Carmen Marie Schentrup
ACLU fact sheet on the topic of the Count’s cleek link, the “100-mile border zone.”
ICE agents have been checking bus passengers in Maine lately. And not only in Maine, but I’m too busy to find more links at the moment.
Fun times.
ACLU fact sheet on the topic of the Count’s cleek link, the “100-mile border zone.”
ICE agents have been checking bus passengers in Maine lately. And not only in Maine, but I’m too busy to find more links at the moment.
Fun times.
Were any of the surviving students and parents who visited the White House the other day pulled aside afterward by ICE and their papers checked.
I thought maybe mp might have noticed some ethnic or national cues, since he’s so alert to these things, in members of the group that would have made him suspect otherness.
Carmen Marie Schentrup
The obvious and sheer intelligence, eloquence, and articulateness of the student body, both dead and surviving, at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida must leave a bad taste in the surly lying mouths of the murderers, child molesters, and psychopaths in the republican conservative movement who have been vomiting up rumors that public schools are failing in their mission to educate young Americans, who they tell us can’t put a complete sentence together and are way too busy, according to the Drehers among the ilk, sodomizing each other and planning their gender transitions.
Were any of the surviving students and parents who visited the White House the other day pulled aside afterward by ICE and their papers checked.
I thought maybe mp might have noticed some ethnic or national cues, since he’s so alert to these things, in members of the group that would have made him suspect otherness.
Carmen Marie Schentrup
The obvious and sheer intelligence, eloquence, and articulateness of the student body, both dead and surviving, at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida must leave a bad taste in the surly lying mouths of the murderers, child molesters, and psychopaths in the republican conservative movement who have been vomiting up rumors that public schools are failing in their mission to educate young Americans, who they tell us can’t put a complete sentence together and are way too busy, according to the Drehers among the ilk, sodomizing each other and planning their gender transitions.
ICE agents have been checking bus passengers in Maine lately. And not only in Maine
Actually, if you think about it, this represents progress . . . of a sort. It means they are beginning to move on from raw racism to straight-up xenophobia. That is, worrying about all those horrid Canadians coming here and stealing our jobs.
Granted the Canadians mostly speak English (a few Quebecoises excluded), so they can insidiously blend in. Oh, the horror!
ICE agents have been checking bus passengers in Maine lately. And not only in Maine
Actually, if you think about it, this represents progress . . . of a sort. It means they are beginning to move on from raw racism to straight-up xenophobia. That is, worrying about all those horrid Canadians coming here and stealing our jobs.
Granted the Canadians mostly speak English (a few Quebecoises excluded), so they can insidiously blend in. Oh, the horror!
I found the fuss over PdMās commentary a bit perplexing
I realize that there are always lines to read between, but if I felt that PdM was trolling, I would have said so. I was simply pointing out that if he wants a different environment for the reception of his comments, he may want to start differently. That’s all.
I found the fuss over PdMās commentary a bit perplexing
I realize that there are always lines to read between, but if I felt that PdM was trolling, I would have said so. I was simply pointing out that if he wants a different environment for the reception of his comments, he may want to start differently. That’s all.
Actually, if you think about it, this represents progress . . . of a sort. It means they are beginning to move on from raw racism to straight-up xenophobia. That is, worrying about all those horrid Canadians coming here and stealing our jobs.
Sorry wj, but no, they are not really looking for Canadians. They are looking for *those* people (the usual suspects, so to speak) trying to come in from Canada. For that matter, they are using the 100-mile zone as license to do wtf they please. Last summer, after a trip to Canada, a friend of mine drove through a checkpoint in NH. Relevant passage:
Again, not Canadians.
Or maybe you were just being snarky.
Actually, if you think about it, this represents progress . . . of a sort. It means they are beginning to move on from raw racism to straight-up xenophobia. That is, worrying about all those horrid Canadians coming here and stealing our jobs.
Sorry wj, but no, they are not really looking for Canadians. They are looking for *those* people (the usual suspects, so to speak) trying to come in from Canada. For that matter, they are using the 100-mile zone as license to do wtf they please. Last summer, after a trip to Canada, a friend of mine drove through a checkpoint in NH. Relevant passage:
Again, not Canadians.
Or maybe you were just being snarky.
No sweat, lj.
I wouldn’t have touched the strudel if mp had served it to the slaughter survivors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5z1y2jOofQ
I wonder if Stephen Miller, David Duke’s favorite conservative Jew, might have been lurking in the background trying to spot liberal Jews among the attendees who might have “ties” to George Soros, who some believe planned the Florida massacre.
No sweat, lj.
I wouldn’t have touched the strudel if mp had served it to the slaughter survivors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5z1y2jOofQ
I wonder if Stephen Miller, David Duke’s favorite conservative Jew, might have been lurking in the background trying to spot liberal Jews among the attendees who might have “ties” to George Soros, who some believe planned the Florida massacre.
lj, I’m the one who used the word “troll” in that I quoted “DNFTT.” I explicitly said I didn’t think PdM was a troll in the usual sense, but that I did think the effect was similar. I stand by that. The whole thread bends toward the kind of discourse one commenter prefers, one commenter interacts semi-one-on-one with a bunch of others, people are talking to him/her more than to each other, etc.
But as I also implied in noting that no one ever listens to pleas not to feed trolls, people apparently like to bite these sorts of hooks.
Next time, I’ll just find something else to do myself.
lj, I’m the one who used the word “troll” in that I quoted “DNFTT.” I explicitly said I didn’t think PdM was a troll in the usual sense, but that I did think the effect was similar. I stand by that. The whole thread bends toward the kind of discourse one commenter prefers, one commenter interacts semi-one-on-one with a bunch of others, people are talking to him/her more than to each other, etc.
But as I also implied in noting that no one ever listens to pleas not to feed trolls, people apparently like to bite these sorts of hooks.
Next time, I’ll just find something else to do myself.
A doctor on the utter insanity of allowing the sale of AR15s and their like to the public:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/
A doctor on the utter insanity of allowing the sale of AR15s and their like to the public:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/
Or to put it another way in relation to Maine and the border zone: what ICE is doing has pretty much nothing to do with Canada or Canadians.
Or to put it another way in relation to Maine and the border zone: what ICE is doing has pretty much nothing to do with Canada or Canadians.
Wayne LaPierre today:
“Political” as a dirty word again. Of course, Wayne LaPierre isn’t exploiting anything for any kind of gain, nosirree.
Political gain: otherwise known as not wanting kids slaughtered in their schools.
If that’s political gain, I’m all for it.
And personally, I would like my liberty to come with a healthy helping of safety in public places. Private ones too. Liberty to study calculus. Liberty to go to shop class. Liberty to … grow up in one piece.
Fncking asshole.
Wayne LaPierre today:
“Political” as a dirty word again. Of course, Wayne LaPierre isn’t exploiting anything for any kind of gain, nosirree.
Political gain: otherwise known as not wanting kids slaughtered in their schools.
If that’s political gain, I’m all for it.
And personally, I would like my liberty to come with a healthy helping of safety in public places. Private ones too. Liberty to study calculus. Liberty to go to shop class. Liberty to … grow up in one piece.
Fncking asshole.
I think we should put cops in the schools, oh wait
http://time.com/5171755/broward-sheriff-deputy-resigns-video-parkland-florida-school-shooting/
I think we should put cops in the schools, oh wait
http://time.com/5171755/broward-sheriff-deputy-resigns-video-parkland-florida-school-shooting/
Fncking asshole.
I do not find this sentiment to be the least bit perplexing. ;^)
Fncking asshole.
I do not find this sentiment to be the least bit perplexing. ;^)
The whole thread bends toward the kind of discourse one commenter prefers, one commenter interacts semi-one-on-one with a bunch of others, people are talking to him/her more than to each other, etc.
Yep, that’s what I see as well, but I also think it takes a group effort to avoid that. The phrase ‘call-out’ isn’t really correct, cause I do think there is a place for oppositional debate, but I’m not worried about efficiency, I’m more interested in making sure that people don’t walk off.
I haven’t mentioned this in a while, but if there are regular commenters who want to write a guest post, drop a line to the kitty. Operators are standing by.
However, if you go with the metaphor of fishhooks, it may sound like I’m in the middle of the school saying ‘ah, don’t worry, I’m sure when you get up in the boat, you can talk to him’. To mangle film quotes, don’t ever get in the boat…
The whole thread bends toward the kind of discourse one commenter prefers, one commenter interacts semi-one-on-one with a bunch of others, people are talking to him/her more than to each other, etc.
Yep, that’s what I see as well, but I also think it takes a group effort to avoid that. The phrase ‘call-out’ isn’t really correct, cause I do think there is a place for oppositional debate, but I’m not worried about efficiency, I’m more interested in making sure that people don’t walk off.
I haven’t mentioned this in a while, but if there are regular commenters who want to write a guest post, drop a line to the kitty. Operators are standing by.
However, if you go with the metaphor of fishhooks, it may sound like I’m in the middle of the school saying ‘ah, don’t worry, I’m sure when you get up in the boat, you can talk to him’. To mangle film quotes, don’t ever get in the boat…
Things that make me skeeved.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/22/588097749/america-no-longer-a-nation-of-immigrants-uscis-says
Things that make me skeeved.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/22/588097749/america-no-longer-a-nation-of-immigrants-uscis-says
USCIS Director Cissna’s forbears, probably pronounced Sisney early on, may well have been drunken Irish potato eaters when we had a chance to kick their fookin asses out in the first place:
http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/cessna/312/
I don’t know that he composes limericks, or boxes at the welterweight level, or can sing an acceptable tenor, perhaps reasons to allow him to stay, but not necessarily to vote.
USCIS Director Cissna’s forbears, probably pronounced Sisney early on, may well have been drunken Irish potato eaters when we had a chance to kick their fookin asses out in the first place:
http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/cessna/312/
I don’t know that he composes limericks, or boxes at the welterweight level, or can sing an acceptable tenor, perhaps reasons to allow him to stay, but not necessarily to vote.
Again, not Canadians.
Or maybe you were just being snarky.
Actually it was (almost) equal parts optimistic and snarky. But tilted towards snarky.
Again, not Canadians.
Or maybe you were just being snarky.
Actually it was (almost) equal parts optimistic and snarky. But tilted towards snarky.
I think we should put cops in the schools, oh wait….
Well, armed teachers would already be inside, so that would avoid the “waiting outside while the shooting continued” problem. Of course they would generally be less well trained….
I think we should put cops in the schools, oh wait….
Well, armed teachers would already be inside, so that would avoid the “waiting outside while the shooting continued” problem. Of course they would generally be less well trained….
The whole ānot having chosen law enforcement as a careerā thing is a problem for the teachers.
The whole ānot having chosen law enforcement as a careerā thing is a problem for the teachers.
Maybe if we got rid of all the other requirements, and restricted teaching positions to only former police officers and ex-(combat)-military. Oh yes, and NRA Life Members.
Problem solved!
Maybe if we got rid of all the other requirements, and restricted teaching positions to only former police officers and ex-(combat)-military. Oh yes, and NRA Life Members.
Problem solved!
since there are never any accounts of high school teachers physically abusing or literally fncking their students, there is absolutely no reason to think requiring HS teachers to have guns in class will ever lead to bad outcomes.
a gun would never be brought out as a threat by a teacher frustrated by her students’ refusal to stop talking or fighting or back-mouthing.
since there are never any accounts of high school teachers physically abusing or literally fncking their students, there is absolutely no reason to think requiring HS teachers to have guns in class will ever lead to bad outcomes.
a gun would never be brought out as a threat by a teacher frustrated by her students’ refusal to stop talking or fighting or back-mouthing.
i will say, the whole “give teachers guns!” ploy has worked as a nice distraction.
as long as we’re not talking about this, it’s all good. for the NRA.
i will say, the whole “give teachers guns!” ploy has worked as a nice distraction.
as long as we’re not talking about this, it’s all good. for the NRA.
here’s the rest of the picture.
in case you were wondering where there US sits.
here’s the rest of the picture.
in case you were wondering where there US sits.
late night thoughts.
pollo – not a troll, not even an ogre. just a guy who likes to mix it up. i think we can take it.
the NRA needs to be utterly destroyed, plowed under, and the ground sown with salt.
my church is trying to raise money to help a woman in our community pay the rent. her husband’s been held by ICE for the last month, pending a deportation hearing. they have three little kids, including infant twin girls, one of whom is in the hospital.
people i know are being approached by latin friends, asking if they (the people I know) will take their kids in if they’re deported.
i think it’s time to just take the fucking statue of liberty down and give it to someone who deserves it.
the president’s son is selling access to the first family to the highest bidder on the subcontinent. not even the highest bidder, I guess the going rate for “dinner and a conversation” is a little over $30K.
there is probably an expectation that you’ll buy a condo, though.
this is not an America I recognize as my own. i don’t know whose it is, but they can have it. i don’t want it. the density of sheer petty grasping mercenary bullshit is suffocating.
i don’t know if we’ve ever really been a great nation. i don’t know if any nation has ever really been great, it’s always a mixed bag.
but at least we used to want to be, i think. i don’t think we do anymore. we want the privileges of greatness, but not the responsibilities.
a nation of spoiled children.
make america grow up again. please. or at least aspire to something like maturity.
all of that said, Stephane Grappelli is playing “The Nearness Of You” on my stereo and tomorrow’s a day off. i’m gonna do a couple of chores for my wife, refill the bird feeders, and listen to music.
that’s gonna be a great day.
it’s weird to try to hold how beautiful the world is, and how miserably FUBAR the world is, in my head at the same time.
good night everyone.
late night thoughts.
pollo – not a troll, not even an ogre. just a guy who likes to mix it up. i think we can take it.
the NRA needs to be utterly destroyed, plowed under, and the ground sown with salt.
my church is trying to raise money to help a woman in our community pay the rent. her husband’s been held by ICE for the last month, pending a deportation hearing. they have three little kids, including infant twin girls, one of whom is in the hospital.
people i know are being approached by latin friends, asking if they (the people I know) will take their kids in if they’re deported.
i think it’s time to just take the fucking statue of liberty down and give it to someone who deserves it.
the president’s son is selling access to the first family to the highest bidder on the subcontinent. not even the highest bidder, I guess the going rate for “dinner and a conversation” is a little over $30K.
there is probably an expectation that you’ll buy a condo, though.
this is not an America I recognize as my own. i don’t know whose it is, but they can have it. i don’t want it. the density of sheer petty grasping mercenary bullshit is suffocating.
i don’t know if we’ve ever really been a great nation. i don’t know if any nation has ever really been great, it’s always a mixed bag.
but at least we used to want to be, i think. i don’t think we do anymore. we want the privileges of greatness, but not the responsibilities.
a nation of spoiled children.
make america grow up again. please. or at least aspire to something like maturity.
all of that said, Stephane Grappelli is playing “The Nearness Of You” on my stereo and tomorrow’s a day off. i’m gonna do a couple of chores for my wife, refill the bird feeders, and listen to music.
that’s gonna be a great day.
it’s weird to try to hold how beautiful the world is, and how miserably FUBAR the world is, in my head at the same time.
good night everyone.
Maybe if we got rid of all the other requirements, and restricted teaching positions to only former police officers and ex-(combat)-military. Oh yes, and NRA Life Members.
Problem solved!
That was Prussia’s way of solving the problem of ex-soldiers falling into poverty. When the Prussian monarch got the mad idea that all kids should get a public education (an idea vehemently opposed by rural parents and the churches) he hired lots and lots of invalid (=to sick to serve anymore) soldiers to become schoolteachers. That was close to budget neutral (salary instead of pension) and the guys would instill discipline and patriotism into the kids. Much later it was a common saying that it was the Prussian needle-gun and the Prussian schoolteacher that won the wars.
Of course classic Prussia could never be a model for Murica. Religious tolerance, a bureaucracy where the boss himself personally checked that the officals did their job and kicked out corrupt and lazy ones, laws that applied to everyone (even the boss), the idea of a social safety net supervised by the state, privileges dependent on actually doing service…ANATHEMA!
(I am very well aware that feudal Prussia was no paradise but by contemporary standards it was preferable to about anywhere else).
Maybe if we got rid of all the other requirements, and restricted teaching positions to only former police officers and ex-(combat)-military. Oh yes, and NRA Life Members.
Problem solved!
That was Prussia’s way of solving the problem of ex-soldiers falling into poverty. When the Prussian monarch got the mad idea that all kids should get a public education (an idea vehemently opposed by rural parents and the churches) he hired lots and lots of invalid (=to sick to serve anymore) soldiers to become schoolteachers. That was close to budget neutral (salary instead of pension) and the guys would instill discipline and patriotism into the kids. Much later it was a common saying that it was the Prussian needle-gun and the Prussian schoolteacher that won the wars.
Of course classic Prussia could never be a model for Murica. Religious tolerance, a bureaucracy where the boss himself personally checked that the officals did their job and kicked out corrupt and lazy ones, laws that applied to everyone (even the boss), the idea of a social safety net supervised by the state, privileges dependent on actually doing service…ANATHEMA!
(I am very well aware that feudal Prussia was no paradise but by contemporary standards it was preferable to about anywhere else).
I randomly came across this last week. I found it interesting.
http://igeek.com/w/Talk:U.S._vs_U.K._-_Crime/Murder
I randomly came across this last week. I found it interesting.
http://igeek.com/w/Talk:U.S._vs_U.K._-_Crime/Murder
i don’t know if we’ve ever really been a great nation. i don’t know if any nation has ever really been great, it’s always a mixed bag.
but at least we used to want to be, i think. i don’t think we do anymore. we want the privileges of greatness, but not the responsibilities.
a nation of spoiled children.
We’re represented by spoiled children, but we’re not a nation of them. We’re a diverse nation of people, the most well-meaning of whom became complacent in the face of a greed-driven right-wing international authoritarian movement that took our government through fraud. We need to stop assuming that somebody else “deserves” our Statue of Liberty, and rise up to demand it back ourselves.
We’re not passive observers to the demise of our society. We have to earn our privilege.
i don’t know if we’ve ever really been a great nation. i don’t know if any nation has ever really been great, it’s always a mixed bag.
but at least we used to want to be, i think. i don’t think we do anymore. we want the privileges of greatness, but not the responsibilities.
a nation of spoiled children.
We’re represented by spoiled children, but we’re not a nation of them. We’re a diverse nation of people, the most well-meaning of whom became complacent in the face of a greed-driven right-wing international authoritarian movement that took our government through fraud. We need to stop assuming that somebody else “deserves” our Statue of Liberty, and rise up to demand it back ourselves.
We’re not passive observers to the demise of our society. We have to earn our privilege.
I found it interesting.
there’s some controversy over it.
violent crime is the banner figure on the iGeek page. and they cite a wildly misleading figure.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jun/24/blog-posting/social-media-post-says-uk-has-far-higher-violent-c/
tl;dr : it’s not apples to apples. the UK counts different crimes as “violent crimes” than the US does. ex, the UK counts all sexual assault as a violent crime, the US doesn’t.
the iGeek page notes this, far down the page in a quote. then handwaves it away.
and the numbers it uses for murders in the UK are way off what even its cited sources say.
the UK numbers don’t include Scotland or N Ireland because, as the ONS document states, they count crimes differently than UK/Wales does, which makes them also not apple to apples.
the iGeek author doesn’t care; numbers are numbers!
and then it gets into “white” vs “black” murder rates! noted fraud John Lott is even cited as a source.
and as a conclusion, it says:
sounds legit
I found it interesting.
there’s some controversy over it.
violent crime is the banner figure on the iGeek page. and they cite a wildly misleading figure.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jun/24/blog-posting/social-media-post-says-uk-has-far-higher-violent-c/
tl;dr : it’s not apples to apples. the UK counts different crimes as “violent crimes” than the US does. ex, the UK counts all sexual assault as a violent crime, the US doesn’t.
the iGeek page notes this, far down the page in a quote. then handwaves it away.
and the numbers it uses for murders in the UK are way off what even its cited sources say.
the UK numbers don’t include Scotland or N Ireland because, as the ONS document states, they count crimes differently than UK/Wales does, which makes them also not apple to apples.
the iGeek author doesn’t care; numbers are numbers!
and then it gets into “white” vs “black” murder rates! noted fraud John Lott is even cited as a source.
and as a conclusion, it says:
sounds legit
Marty, those figures are an outright lie.
Marty, those figures are an outright lie.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/20/violent-crime-rise-police-figures-different-story-office-national-statistics
A trawl thru igeek is eye-opening
http://igeek.com/w/Isn%27t_fascism_a_right_wing_ideology%3F
If Fascism is right wing in Europe, it’s left wing in America
http://igeek.com/w/Fake_News
Then on September 13, 2016 Hillary Clinton supporters Google and Eric Schmidt, used a shell charity (a non-profit called “First Draft,”) to start seeding the term to attack right wing websites (“to tackle malicious hoaxes and fake news reports”).
http://igeek.com/w/Donald_Trump
Too much to choose from.
Honestly Marty, why do you want to look at this shit?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/20/violent-crime-rise-police-figures-different-story-office-national-statistics
A trawl thru igeek is eye-opening
http://igeek.com/w/Isn%27t_fascism_a_right_wing_ideology%3F
If Fascism is right wing in Europe, it’s left wing in America
http://igeek.com/w/Fake_News
Then on September 13, 2016 Hillary Clinton supporters Google and Eric Schmidt, used a shell charity (a non-profit called “First Draft,”) to start seeding the term to attack right wing websites (“to tackle malicious hoaxes and fake news reports”).
http://igeek.com/w/Donald_Trump
Too much to choose from.
Honestly Marty, why do you want to look at this shit?
democrats, blacks and latino gang-members drag our murder and crime rates averages up.
as the grandchild of an italian immigrant, i demand equal credit be given to the sicilian mafia.
We’re not passive observers to the demise of our society. We have to earn our privilege.
thank you sapient.
democrats, blacks and latino gang-members drag our murder and crime rates averages up.
as the grandchild of an italian immigrant, i demand equal credit be given to the sicilian mafia.
We’re not passive observers to the demise of our society. We have to earn our privilege.
thank you sapient.
A trawl thru igeek is eye-opening
i thought that “law of the henhouse” thing was clever. cute title!
i especially liked the part where the “punch a nazi” thing is described as a form of being intolerant of people who aren’t like you.
first they came for the nazis….
A trawl thru igeek is eye-opening
i thought that “law of the henhouse” thing was clever. cute title!
i especially liked the part where the “punch a nazi” thing is described as a form of being intolerant of people who aren’t like you.
first they came for the nazis….
I look at this stuff for the same reasons you hardware it away. Because it points out how everyone uses the statistics that support their pov.
Just like the commenters here did. “Those figures are an outright lie” Well no, they are statistics. Some of the points are interesting, immediately someone pointed out how sexual assaults were counted differently, yet no comment on how ONS only counts murders where someone is charged.
It is worth reading it to understand, even from someone who may draw suspect conclusions, how the stats are counted different.
I look at this stuff for the same reasons you hardware it away. Because it points out how everyone uses the statistics that support their pov.
Just like the commenters here did. “Those figures are an outright lie” Well no, they are statistics. Some of the points are interesting, immediately someone pointed out how sexual assaults were counted differently, yet no comment on how ONS only counts murders where someone is charged.
It is worth reading it to understand, even from someone who may draw suspect conclusions, how the stats are counted different.
Marty, those figures are an outright lie.
I’ll expand on that. The chart has US white offender homicide rate as being well below 1 per 100,000 population.
Here is the latest homicide table from the FBI, which shows 3,499 white offenders. The white population of the USA is something like 250 million (depending on how you count it), so that’s already well over 1 per 100,000.
But that number itself is far too low. Note the “single victim/single offender” notation at the top right – apparently these numbers are for one-on-one crimes only. Look at this table. Now we see that the number of homicides by whites was 5,004. So the rate is about 2 per 100,000.
But then note that in about a third of homicides the race of the offender is unknown. Assigning some of those to white offenders, the rate approaches 3 per 100,000.
That’s the number to compare with the England and Wales data. Even then, looking at whites-only homicide rates is a crock. Poor people commit more violent crime than rich people. The way the US is set up, black people are much more likely to be poor. If you exclude half the poor people from UK homicide statistics you’d get much lower numbers.
The ONS compiles statistics for England and Wales as a matter of legal jurisdiction – the law works differently in Scotland, and in Northern Ireland. Including data for Scotland would make little difference (except that the Lockerbie bombing would create a spike in 1988). Including data for Northern Ireland would make the figures higher during the Troubles.
The UK statistics include homicides in the year in which they are reported as such. The spike in 2002 is because 172 of Harold Shipman’s victims were recorded in that year (he was a doctor who killed over 200 of his elderly patients). There will be a spike in the 2017 numbers because a second inquest ruled that the 1989 Hillsborough stadium disaster was manslaughter. This sort of effect makes it difficult to relate the numbers to changes in gun law.
Marty, those figures are an outright lie.
I’ll expand on that. The chart has US white offender homicide rate as being well below 1 per 100,000 population.
Here is the latest homicide table from the FBI, which shows 3,499 white offenders. The white population of the USA is something like 250 million (depending on how you count it), so that’s already well over 1 per 100,000.
But that number itself is far too low. Note the “single victim/single offender” notation at the top right – apparently these numbers are for one-on-one crimes only. Look at this table. Now we see that the number of homicides by whites was 5,004. So the rate is about 2 per 100,000.
But then note that in about a third of homicides the race of the offender is unknown. Assigning some of those to white offenders, the rate approaches 3 per 100,000.
That’s the number to compare with the England and Wales data. Even then, looking at whites-only homicide rates is a crock. Poor people commit more violent crime than rich people. The way the US is set up, black people are much more likely to be poor. If you exclude half the poor people from UK homicide statistics you’d get much lower numbers.
The ONS compiles statistics for England and Wales as a matter of legal jurisdiction – the law works differently in Scotland, and in Northern Ireland. Including data for Scotland would make little difference (except that the Lockerbie bombing would create a spike in 1988). Including data for Northern Ireland would make the figures higher during the Troubles.
The UK statistics include homicides in the year in which they are reported as such. The spike in 2002 is because 172 of Harold Shipman’s victims were recorded in that year (he was a doctor who killed over 200 of his elderly patients). There will be a spike in the 2017 numbers because a second inquest ruled that the 1989 Hillsborough stadium disaster was manslaughter. This sort of effect makes it difficult to relate the numbers to changes in gun law.
ONS only counts murders where someone is charged
Just no. The statistics charted for the UK are homicide statistics, counted when a death is identified by an inquest as homicide. They do not attempt to distinguish murder from manslaughter, because that is not decided until an offender is convicted.
Typically, the figures are eventually revised down by a few percent when investigation or criminal trial determines that the death was not legally homicide.
It is worth reading it to understand, even from someone who may draw suspect conclusions, how the stats are counted different
No it isn’t. Those would-be statistics are just wrong.
ONS only counts murders where someone is charged
Just no. The statistics charted for the UK are homicide statistics, counted when a death is identified by an inquest as homicide. They do not attempt to distinguish murder from manslaughter, because that is not decided until an offender is convicted.
Typically, the figures are eventually revised down by a few percent when investigation or criminal trial determines that the death was not legally homicide.
It is worth reading it to understand, even from someone who may draw suspect conclusions, how the stats are counted different
No it isn’t. Those would-be statistics are just wrong.
Whites and Asian are highly responsible with guns
trying to remember the last time a high-profile school shooting wasn’t a white guy. and the one that immediately comes to mind is the VT killings. and that guy was Asian-American.
Whites and Asian are highly responsible with guns
trying to remember the last time a high-profile school shooting wasn’t a white guy. and the one that immediately comes to mind is the VT killings. and that guy was Asian-American.
I look at this stuff for the same reasons you hardware it away
Because reading it lowers one’s IQ by a few percentage points each time?
I look at this stuff for the same reasons you hardware it away
Because reading it lowers one’s IQ by a few percentage points each time?
reading that stuff is just depressing. it gets shared and passed around and people believe it and use it to justify the status quo (or worse, to promote the Republican gun lobby’s desire to turn school districts into new markets for their Republican guns).
reading that stuff is just depressing. it gets shared and passed around and people believe it and use it to justify the status quo (or worse, to promote the Republican gun lobby’s desire to turn school districts into new markets for their Republican guns).
pro bono,
looking at whites-only homicide rates is a crock. Poor people commit more violent crime than rich people. The way the US is set up, black people are much more likely to be poor. If you exclude half the poor people from UK homicide statistics you’d get much lower numbers.
Shout this from the rooftops. it is exactly right and needs to be more widely understood.
There are way too many people around who use the figures to justify all kinds of racist comments. Not that they are smart enough to see the point, but maybe they would be less persuasive to others.
pro bono,
looking at whites-only homicide rates is a crock. Poor people commit more violent crime than rich people. The way the US is set up, black people are much more likely to be poor. If you exclude half the poor people from UK homicide statistics you’d get much lower numbers.
Shout this from the rooftops. it is exactly right and needs to be more widely understood.
There are way too many people around who use the figures to justify all kinds of racist comments. Not that they are smart enough to see the point, but maybe they would be less persuasive to others.
A trawl thru igeek is eye-opening
but let him tell you how smart he is : http://igeek.com/w/My_Bias !
A trawl thru igeek is eye-opening
but let him tell you how smart he is : http://igeek.com/w/My_Bias !
Meanwhile, on my way to work, I was being a large pick-up truck with lots of stickers on the back window, one of which was the silhouette of an assault rifle (something that doesn’t exist, or so I hear). It was just under the NRA emblem.
The truck had firefighter plates on it. So this was a first responder, someone who potentially could find himself at the site of a school shooting, with bodies ripped apart by an AR-15 as described in the link Nigel provided up-thread. (I think someone else had the some link on the other active thread.)
Isn’t that special.
Meanwhile, on my way to work, I was being a large pick-up truck with lots of stickers on the back window, one of which was the silhouette of an assault rifle (something that doesn’t exist, or so I hear). It was just under the NRA emblem.
The truck had firefighter plates on it. So this was a first responder, someone who potentially could find himself at the site of a school shooting, with bodies ripped apart by an AR-15 as described in the link Nigel provided up-thread. (I think someone else had the some link on the other active thread.)
Isn’t that special.
Behind!
Behind!
Effing chickenhawk in the White House.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43174069
Effing chickenhawk in the White House.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43174069
“investigation or criminal trial determines that the death was not legally homicide”
Does that mean no one died? So it doesn’t get counted? Was does this mean, statistically as compared to gun deaths in the US?
“investigation or criminal trial determines that the death was not legally homicide”
Does that mean no one died? So it doesn’t get counted? Was does this mean, statistically as compared to gun deaths in the US?
“If you exclude half the poor people from UK homicide statistics you’d get much lower numbers.”
What happens if you exclude 25% of the poor people? Because 75% of the US poor people are white. So does that create a difference? What about if you just take away all the poor people in the cities?
Really, What statistical answer are you looking for?
“If you exclude half the poor people from UK homicide statistics you’d get much lower numbers.”
What happens if you exclude 25% of the poor people? Because 75% of the US poor people are white. So does that create a difference? What about if you just take away all the poor people in the cities?
Really, What statistical answer are you looking for?
It means that a death which is eventually determined to be an accident or suicide is removed from the homicide statistics. Exactly as it would be in the USA. The ONS publishes both the numbers as first reported and the final numbers, they’re not very different.
It means that a death which is eventually determined to be an accident or suicide is removed from the homicide statistics. Exactly as it would be in the USA. The ONS publishes both the numbers as first reported and the final numbers, they’re not very different.
What statistical answer are you looking for?
back atcha.
what did you find interesting on the igeek page?
what point did you wish to make in citing it?
what question did you wish to raise?
What statistical answer are you looking for?
back atcha.
what did you find interesting on the igeek page?
what point did you wish to make in citing it?
what question did you wish to raise?
Really, What statistical answer are you looking for?
here’s iGeek’s final conclusion: In the U.S., removing those laws resulted in lowering of crime rates.
the data doesn’t say that. and, he attributes lowering of crime to a single factor, without proving causation. he has nothing to say about, for example lead/crime, or education, or the economy, or anything.
it’s BS masquerading as analysis.
Really, What statistical answer are you looking for?
here’s iGeek’s final conclusion: In the U.S., removing those laws resulted in lowering of crime rates.
the data doesn’t say that. and, he attributes lowering of crime to a single factor, without proving causation. he has nothing to say about, for example lead/crime, or education, or the economy, or anything.
it’s BS masquerading as analysis.
Marty, the big problem with the chart you linked to is the arbitrary adjustment for the author’s claim about the ONS that “They only count murders where someone is charged with a crime.” Which is simply false. There’s a detailed account of the methods here. If you scroll down (link) you’ll see a bar chart including “no suspect” as one of the bars.
To repeat: the chart you linked to makes a major adjustment for what it claims is a difference in counting methodology which provably does not exist. It’s a crock. File it in the round one.
Marty, the big problem with the chart you linked to is the arbitrary adjustment for the author’s claim about the ONS that “They only count murders where someone is charged with a crime.” Which is simply false. There’s a detailed account of the methods here. If you scroll down (link) you’ll see a bar chart including “no suspect” as one of the bars.
To repeat: the chart you linked to makes a major adjustment for what it claims is a difference in counting methodology which provably does not exist. It’s a crock. File it in the round one.
I’ll add that these statistics are all for homicides. If you want to count specifically murders, in the UK or in any other country which distinguishes between murder and manslaughter, you have to wait for someone to be convicted of them. Which is why the ONS, like reporting agencies in other countries, focuses on homicide data.
Conflating “murder” with “homicide” in discussing these data is unhelpful.
I’ll add that these statistics are all for homicides. If you want to count specifically murders, in the UK or in any other country which distinguishes between murder and manslaughter, you have to wait for someone to be convicted of them. Which is why the ONS, like reporting agencies in other countries, focuses on homicide data.
Conflating “murder” with “homicide” in discussing these data is unhelpful.
russell, I actually found it interesting that the rolled up statistics were broken down in different ways to beg the question whether the topics numbers were at all meaningful.
To argue against his point about removing black people commenters here said it would be more reasonable to take out poor people. So is gun violence, or violent crime in general greater in populations of poor people, with or without guns? Rural vs urban poor people?
So how does that effect the overall comparison? By percent are there more poor people in the US?
Does the ONS not count things that are counted here? Is that statistically significant? Is there really less violence when things are counted the same? Why isn’t that a valid question?
Underlying all of this is my assertion/opinion that the problem in the US is that we are more violent is questioned in a way that made me consider that I could be wrong.
Some of the facts in the article aren’t disputable, deltas between gun and knife violence etc that speak directly counter to my understanding of a cultural difference. So I thought it was interesting.
russell, I actually found it interesting that the rolled up statistics were broken down in different ways to beg the question whether the topics numbers were at all meaningful.
To argue against his point about removing black people commenters here said it would be more reasonable to take out poor people. So is gun violence, or violent crime in general greater in populations of poor people, with or without guns? Rural vs urban poor people?
So how does that effect the overall comparison? By percent are there more poor people in the US?
Does the ONS not count things that are counted here? Is that statistically significant? Is there really less violence when things are counted the same? Why isn’t that a valid question?
Underlying all of this is my assertion/opinion that the problem in the US is that we are more violent is questioned in a way that made me consider that I could be wrong.
Some of the facts in the article aren’t disputable, deltas between gun and knife violence etc that speak directly counter to my understanding of a cultural difference. So I thought it was interesting.
thanks marty, it’s helpful to know the details
thanks marty, it’s helpful to know the details
Does the ONS not count things that are counted here? Is that statistically significant?
yes.
the US doesn’t count sexual assault as a violent crime.
Does the ONS not count things that are counted here? Is that statistically significant?
yes.
the US doesn’t count sexual assault as a violent crime.
I’m not positive, but this might have been counted as a violent crime, as it is a public order offense
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/19/woman-held-in-stoke-on-trent-over-abusive-note-on-ambulance
The criminal law in respect of public order offences is intended to penalise the use of violence and/or intimidation by individuals or groups.
Maybe they have ‘more’ “violent” crime because their definition of violence is a lot lower than the US.
I’m not positive, but this might have been counted as a violent crime, as it is a public order offense
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/19/woman-held-in-stoke-on-trent-over-abusive-note-on-ambulance
The criminal law in respect of public order offences is intended to penalise the use of violence and/or intimidation by individuals or groups.
Maybe they have ‘more’ “violent” crime because their definition of violence is a lot lower than the US.
Joaquin Oliver
Joaquin Oliver
By percent are there more poor people in the US?
That depends on your definition of poverty.
There’s been a lot of research into the relationship between poverty and crime. It’s not simple. But there are some common-sense observations which seem to hold up:
– people are more likely to commit crime if they have little to lose by being caught. Rich people will flout the law if they think their lawyers will get them off. Poor people will flout the law if they think they’ll be not much worse off in prison, and they have no career at stake.
– income inequality encourages theft more than poverty in itself. How could anyone look at Trump and not feel they have just as much right to be rich?
– some sorts of crime are committed only against strangers – muggings for example. So they happen in big cities and not small villages.
– gang violence is a city phenomenon.
Regarding guns: of course you reduce gun violence by making guns harder to come by. In the UK, it’s possible for criminals to get guns, but at a price, and with considerable risk. So they are used only in high-yield robberies, or by gangs as a show of bravado.
There’s some substitution of knives, but stabbing a person is harder than shooting them. The homicide rate is several times lower in the UK than in the USA.
By percent are there more poor people in the US?
That depends on your definition of poverty.
There’s been a lot of research into the relationship between poverty and crime. It’s not simple. But there are some common-sense observations which seem to hold up:
– people are more likely to commit crime if they have little to lose by being caught. Rich people will flout the law if they think their lawyers will get them off. Poor people will flout the law if they think they’ll be not much worse off in prison, and they have no career at stake.
– income inequality encourages theft more than poverty in itself. How could anyone look at Trump and not feel they have just as much right to be rich?
– some sorts of crime are committed only against strangers – muggings for example. So they happen in big cities and not small villages.
– gang violence is a city phenomenon.
Regarding guns: of course you reduce gun violence by making guns harder to come by. In the UK, it’s possible for criminals to get guns, but at a price, and with considerable risk. So they are used only in high-yield robberies, or by gangs as a show of bravado.
There’s some substitution of knives, but stabbing a person is harder than shooting them. The homicide rate is several times lower in the UK than in the USA.
for wj,
(You’ll enjoy the comments, too)
for wj,
(You’ll enjoy the comments, too)
The quickest way to reduce gun violence, and other forms of violence, in the US is to stop the war on drugs. In addition to the direct reductions, doing away with the illegal drug laws along with the laws against other victimless crimes would free up resources to use against crimes with real victims.
The quickest way to reduce gun violence, and other forms of violence, in the US is to stop the war on drugs. In addition to the direct reductions, doing away with the illegal drug laws along with the laws against other victimless crimes would free up resources to use against crimes with real victims.
OK, so we don’t arrest Trayvon Martin for marijuana possession at his school, but deal with in other, better ways, per the example in one your cites yesterday.
But then the writer of the article states THAT leniency is precisely what led to the Florida shootings?
So what gives?
I’m all for overhauling the War on Drugs, now enjoying a revival by our Justice Department.
This was interesting on NPR this morning:
https://www.npr.org/2018/02/23/587908364/johann-hari-does-stigmatizing-addiction-perpetuate-it
Other countries are smarter than we are.
OK, so we don’t arrest Trayvon Martin for marijuana possession at his school, but deal with in other, better ways, per the example in one your cites yesterday.
But then the writer of the article states THAT leniency is precisely what led to the Florida shootings?
So what gives?
I’m all for overhauling the War on Drugs, now enjoying a revival by our Justice Department.
This was interesting on NPR this morning:
https://www.npr.org/2018/02/23/587908364/johann-hari-does-stigmatizing-addiction-perpetuate-it
Other countries are smarter than we are.
Also would like to point out that a Florida legislator and other conservatives don’t believe gun bans work to reduce gun crime, citing Baltimore, Chicago, Philly, and such, cities that have instituted gun bans.
Well, of course not, because all of those cities are surrounded by gun purveyors who sell to the cityfolks.
Build a wall!
I’ll bet most of those gun purveyors are white men.
Also would like to point out that a Florida legislator and other conservatives don’t believe gun bans work to reduce gun crime, citing Baltimore, Chicago, Philly, and such, cities that have instituted gun bans.
Well, of course not, because all of those cities are surrounded by gun purveyors who sell to the cityfolks.
Build a wall!
I’ll bet most of those gun purveyors are white men.
But then the writer of the article states THAT leniency is precisely what led to the Florida shootings?
The article implies that the Broward County School Board has gone to the opposite extreme of the zero tolerance idiocy.
But then the writer of the article states THAT leniency is precisely what led to the Florida shootings?
The article implies that the Broward County School Board has gone to the opposite extreme of the zero tolerance idiocy.
“The homicide rate is several times lower in the UK than in the USA.”
You keep telling yourself that. The homicide rate in vast parts of the US are significantly lower than in the UK. But you jeep leaning on that one statistic to make you feel better.
“The homicide rate is several times lower in the UK than in the USA.”
You keep telling yourself that. The homicide rate in vast parts of the US are significantly lower than in the UK. But you jeep leaning on that one statistic to make you feel better.
Homicide rate in London vrs New York
Homicide rate in London vrs New York
The homicide rate in vast parts of the US are significantly lower than in the UK.
?!?
I’m sure the homicide rate in vast parts of the UK is likewise significantly lower than it is in the US.
I’m not sure why we’re comparing homicide rates in the US and the UK in the first place, but if we are interested in comparing, then lets at least use comparable things.
the countries as wholes makes sense, -ish.
one country as a whole vs selected “vast areas” doesn’t.
there are vast areas of the US with hardly any people in them.
The homicide rate in vast parts of the US are significantly lower than in the UK.
?!?
I’m sure the homicide rate in vast parts of the UK is likewise significantly lower than it is in the US.
I’m not sure why we’re comparing homicide rates in the US and the UK in the first place, but if we are interested in comparing, then lets at least use comparable things.
the countries as wholes makes sense, -ish.
one country as a whole vs selected “vast areas” doesn’t.
there are vast areas of the US with hardly any people in them.
Reminder to self. The comment box is not the search field.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/30/new-york-crime-free-day-deadliest-cities-worldwide
New York still higher than London in homicides per 100,000, despite vast decrease in New York in recent decades.
Reminder to self. The comment box is not the search field.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/30/new-york-crime-free-day-deadliest-cities-worldwide
New York still higher than London in homicides per 100,000, despite vast decrease in New York in recent decades.
Russell made my further point regarding “vast areas”.
The murder rates in Oxford and Broadchurch, not to mention the Shetland Isles, are roughly 96,785 per 100,000, on account of the genocides depicted on the “Inspector Morse”, “Broadchurch”, and “Shetland” detective shows.
Russell made my further point regarding “vast areas”.
The murder rates in Oxford and Broadchurch, not to mention the Shetland Isles, are roughly 96,785 per 100,000, on account of the genocides depicted on the “Inspector Morse”, “Broadchurch”, and “Shetland” detective shows.
Generalized crime in London versus New York:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/20/london-now-dangerous-new-york-crime-stats-suggest/
Generalized crime in London versus New York:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/20/london-now-dangerous-new-york-crime-stats-suggest/
London now more dangerous than New York City, crime stats suggest
London now more dangerous than New York City, crime stats suggest
I should do a refresh before posting… :}
I should do a refresh before posting… :}
You keep telling yourself that. The homicide rate in vast parts of the US are significantly lower than in the UK
Marty, I keep telling you that, because you linked to a lying website which claimed the opposite.
For your further information, the homicide rate in every single state of the USA is higher than in the whole of the UK.
You keep telling yourself that. The homicide rate in vast parts of the US are significantly lower than in the UK
Marty, I keep telling you that, because you linked to a lying website which claimed the opposite.
For your further information, the homicide rate in every single state of the USA is higher than in the whole of the UK.
Thanks, Bobby, that was interesting.
My suspicion, contra some of the comments there, is that the Republican Party will become sufficiently irrelevant that the Democrats can decide that they can afford to split. Except for the detail of which part of the split remains affiliated with the national Democratic Party — which matters, if only when it comes to Presidential primaries.
Thanks, Bobby, that was interesting.
My suspicion, contra some of the comments there, is that the Republican Party will become sufficiently irrelevant that the Democrats can decide that they can afford to split. Except for the detail of which part of the split remains affiliated with the national Democratic Party — which matters, if only when it comes to Presidential primaries.
London now more dangerous than New York City, crime stats suggest
that’s interesting.
so what? what point are you trying to make?
just chumming?
London now more dangerous than New York City, crime stats suggest
that’s interesting.
so what? what point are you trying to make?
just chumming?
what i want to know is this:
in London, what are my chances of being bullied into paying $10 to take a selfie with spiderman?
hanh?
in other news, my wife has an appointment with her opthamologist to run some unnecessary tests, to determine if she has a condition that they both know she has because it was diagnosed 20 years ago, so that she can qualify for coverage for eye medication she’s been taking for 20 years, because she has the condition.
however…
because she uses the freaking medication, the tests will (falsely) indicate that she doesn’t have the condition.
so the doc is going to mis-report the findings. because otherwise she would have to go off the medication for about a month, so that the condition would manifest itself again.
which would damage her eyes and put her eyesight at risk.
thank god we don’t live in a horrible socialist country, where nameless faceless unelected bureaucrats come between us and our medical care providers.
joseph heller couldn’t make this stuff up. kafka, maybe.
stupidest nation on earth. certainly, the stupidest wealthy country that is not also a war zone.
what i want to know is this:
in London, what are my chances of being bullied into paying $10 to take a selfie with spiderman?
hanh?
in other news, my wife has an appointment with her opthamologist to run some unnecessary tests, to determine if she has a condition that they both know she has because it was diagnosed 20 years ago, so that she can qualify for coverage for eye medication she’s been taking for 20 years, because she has the condition.
however…
because she uses the freaking medication, the tests will (falsely) indicate that she doesn’t have the condition.
so the doc is going to mis-report the findings. because otherwise she would have to go off the medication for about a month, so that the condition would manifest itself again.
which would damage her eyes and put her eyesight at risk.
thank god we don’t live in a horrible socialist country, where nameless faceless unelected bureaucrats come between us and our medical care providers.
joseph heller couldn’t make this stuff up. kafka, maybe.
stupidest nation on earth. certainly, the stupidest wealthy country that is not also a war zone.
I stepped on someone’s nationalist pride…
I actually didn’t get from the article that I posted that the UK had higher rates, maybe they said that, but what I got was that when the numbers are broken down the delta isn’t as big as the headline stats.
All of which makes sense to me. I think very few of the top line statistics that are thrown around are all that meaningful.
The US should change their X law because of this or that stat almost never is a good argument, if for no other reason than every one of them starts with the caveat that different countries report and count different ways.
To draw meaningful conclusions you need to look for underlying statistics that are more ckearly comparable.
This is ased on the few times over the years I have really dug in to understand how the numbers were prepared. So certainly IMO.
I stepped on someone’s nationalist pride…
I actually didn’t get from the article that I posted that the UK had higher rates, maybe they said that, but what I got was that when the numbers are broken down the delta isn’t as big as the headline stats.
All of which makes sense to me. I think very few of the top line statistics that are thrown around are all that meaningful.
The US should change their X law because of this or that stat almost never is a good argument, if for no other reason than every one of them starts with the caveat that different countries report and count different ways.
To draw meaningful conclusions you need to look for underlying statistics that are more ckearly comparable.
This is ased on the few times over the years I have really dug in to understand how the numbers were prepared. So certainly IMO.
The US should change their X law because of this or that stat almost never is a good argument
the US should make it difficult to impossible for people who have a history of violence or making threats of violence, or who have a history of mental illness, to buy firearms.
i don’t care what the UK does, although my guess is that they have this covered. that’s what we should do.
The US should change their X law because of this or that stat almost never is a good argument
the US should make it difficult to impossible for people who have a history of violence or making threats of violence, or who have a history of mental illness, to buy firearms.
i don’t care what the UK does, although my guess is that they have this covered. that’s what we should do.
But Russell, don’t you see where that would lead? Obviously there would be a demand for two things. First, that there be no histories kept, either of making (or carrying out) threats of violence or of mental illness. Because that would be a clear threat to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Second, that the term “mental illness” be eliminated, specifically in any document produced by the Federal government.
Can you doubt it? (Of course one might dare to hope such folly would fail. Hope, but on current trends, probably not bet the ranch on it.)
But Russell, don’t you see where that would lead? Obviously there would be a demand for two things. First, that there be no histories kept, either of making (or carrying out) threats of violence or of mental illness. Because that would be a clear threat to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Second, that the term “mental illness” be eliminated, specifically in any document produced by the Federal government.
Can you doubt it? (Of course one might dare to hope such folly would fail. Hope, but on current trends, probably not bet the ranch on it.)
I stepped on someone’s nationalist pride..
No you didn’t, the UK’s homicide rate is nothing to be proud of. You stepped on someone’s hatred of people using made-up statistics to tell lies.
I actually didn’t get from the article that I posted that the UK had higher rates, maybe they said that, but what I got was that when the numbers are broken down the delta isn’t as big as the headline stats.
What I got from it is that you don’t care about the difference between truth and lies. I’d thought better of you. I’ve proved that the site is lying, I’d like you to acknowledge that.
I stepped on someone’s nationalist pride..
No you didn’t, the UK’s homicide rate is nothing to be proud of. You stepped on someone’s hatred of people using made-up statistics to tell lies.
I actually didn’t get from the article that I posted that the UK had higher rates, maybe they said that, but what I got was that when the numbers are broken down the delta isn’t as big as the headline stats.
What I got from it is that you don’t care about the difference between truth and lies. I’d thought better of you. I’ve proved that the site is lying, I’d like you to acknowledge that.
Can you doubt it?
no.
i’m only surprised it’s not already so.
Can you doubt it?
no.
i’m only surprised it’s not already so.
Well, first, you haven’t proven anything. I see that the article I quoted picked and chose the stats they wanted to build a case, whose conclusions I acknowledged long ago were suspect.
But, the underlying statistics were as valid as any you pointed to, even if you don’t like them.
You keep saying the article “lies” but you haven’t proven that, you’ve just shown other statistics that argue against their conclusions.
Well, first, you haven’t proven anything. I see that the article I quoted picked and chose the stats they wanted to build a case, whose conclusions I acknowledged long ago were suspect.
But, the underlying statistics were as valid as any you pointed to, even if you don’t like them.
You keep saying the article “lies” but you haven’t proven that, you’ve just shown other statistics that argue against their conclusions.
It didn’t just pick and chose them. It “adjusted” them, by some unspecified factor, for a wholly spurious reason.
It says “They only count murders where someone is charged with a crime.” That would be true of any country if you look at murder numbers, since you don’t know if it’s murder until then. But the UK numbers it uses are for homicides, which clearly and unambiguously are counted even if there’s no suspect. It uses this false claim as an excuse to make a large “adjustment”.
Then it compares UK homicides with “adjusted” US homicides by whites. If you think the whites-only approach is valid then you do, but the glaring problem is that it excludes any homicide for which there’s no suspect. In other words, it omits data in almost exactly the way it falsely accuses the UK of doing.
These so-called statistics are wholly invalid. Shame on you for being fooled by them.
It didn’t just pick and chose them. It “adjusted” them, by some unspecified factor, for a wholly spurious reason.
It says “They only count murders where someone is charged with a crime.” That would be true of any country if you look at murder numbers, since you don’t know if it’s murder until then. But the UK numbers it uses are for homicides, which clearly and unambiguously are counted even if there’s no suspect. It uses this false claim as an excuse to make a large “adjustment”.
Then it compares UK homicides with “adjusted” US homicides by whites. If you think the whites-only approach is valid then you do, but the glaring problem is that it excludes any homicide for which there’s no suspect. In other words, it omits data in almost exactly the way it falsely accuses the UK of doing.
These so-called statistics are wholly invalid. Shame on you for being fooled by them.
I’m not fooled by anything. It adjusts the numbers, detailing exactly how and why. That is not a lie, it is the way statistics are evaluated and used all the time. If they adjusted the numbers and didn’t spend several paragraphs explaining their logic it would be a lie.
Does the ONS exclude Scotland and Northern Ireland? Well, yes they do. The explanation that their charter is for England and Wales only doesn’t make that a lie, it explains why they do it.
You keep explaining why certain things aren’t counted, ok, got it. I understand your view that these differences don’t make the statistics from the two countries incomparable.
I tend to agree with most of your assessment, but I don’t categorize the article as lies.
Oddly you keep focusing on the difference between counting murders and homicides as justification of the way things are counted, but are the numbers that are being compared equivalent?
Just because there is a reason some things aren’t counted doesn’t mean they are counted.
I’m not fooled by anything. It adjusts the numbers, detailing exactly how and why. That is not a lie, it is the way statistics are evaluated and used all the time. If they adjusted the numbers and didn’t spend several paragraphs explaining their logic it would be a lie.
Does the ONS exclude Scotland and Northern Ireland? Well, yes they do. The explanation that their charter is for England and Wales only doesn’t make that a lie, it explains why they do it.
You keep explaining why certain things aren’t counted, ok, got it. I understand your view that these differences don’t make the statistics from the two countries incomparable.
I tend to agree with most of your assessment, but I don’t categorize the article as lies.
Oddly you keep focusing on the difference between counting murders and homicides as justification of the way things are counted, but are the numbers that are being compared equivalent?
Just because there is a reason some things aren’t counted doesn’t mean they are counted.
Sigh. OK, the England and Wales numbers don’t include Scotland and Northern Ireland. The latest rate for England and Wales is 1.05 per 100,000 population. The latest number for Scotland is 1.21 per 100,000 and for Northern Ireland 0.88 per 100,000. Including Scotland and Northern Ireland would make almost no difference. iGeek’s claim that homicide rates are much higher in Scotland and Northern Ireland is, like almost everything else he says, a lie.
The thing about murders is a distraction, I mentioned it only because your source obfuscates the difference. Homicides are counted in the same way in the UK and in the USA. iGeeks huge “adjustment” to the figures to “correct” for an imaginary difference in methodology is wholly unfounded. Clear now?
Sigh. OK, the England and Wales numbers don’t include Scotland and Northern Ireland. The latest rate for England and Wales is 1.05 per 100,000 population. The latest number for Scotland is 1.21 per 100,000 and for Northern Ireland 0.88 per 100,000. Including Scotland and Northern Ireland would make almost no difference. iGeek’s claim that homicide rates are much higher in Scotland and Northern Ireland is, like almost everything else he says, a lie.
The thing about murders is a distraction, I mentioned it only because your source obfuscates the difference. Homicides are counted in the same way in the UK and in the USA. iGeeks huge “adjustment” to the figures to “correct” for an imaginary difference in methodology is wholly unfounded. Clear now?
So, we’ve had how many elections since 61 years ago:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/02/23/the-racist-roots-of-the-crisis-actors-label/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.167782dac77d
Same vermin, same shit.
Fuck elections.
So, we’ve had how many elections since 61 years ago:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/02/23/the-racist-roots-of-the-crisis-actors-label/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.167782dac77d
Same vermin, same shit.
Fuck elections.
Conservatives hate public school teachers, but want to arm them:
http://juanitajean.com/that-arming-teacher-thing/
Conservatives hate public school teachers, but want to arm them:
http://juanitajean.com/that-arming-teacher-thing/
Hat tip to Balloon juice for that 11:52 cite.
Hat tip to Balloon juice for that 11:52 cite.
Clear, as is this from one of the documents in the references cited.
“5.Ā Ā Homicide statistics too vary widely. In some developing countries, the statistics are known to be far from complete. Figures for crimes labelled as homicide in various countries are simply not comparable. Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise. This reduces the apparent number of homicides by between 13 per cent and 15 per cent. The adjustment is made only in respect of figures shown in one part of the Annual Criminal Statistics. In another part relating to the use of firearms, no adjustment is made. A table of the number of homicides in which firearms were used in England and Wales will therefore differ according to which section of the annual statistics was used as its base. Similarly in statistics relating to the use of firearms, a homicide will be recorded where the firearm was used as a blunt instrument, but in the specific homicide statistics, that case will be shown under “blunt instrument”.
Ā Ā 36.Ā Ā Many countries, including the United States, do not adjust their statistics down in that way and their figures include cases of self defence, killings by police and justifiable homicides. In Portugal, cases in which the cause of death is unknown are included in the homicide figures, inflating the apparent homicide rate very considerably”
My point, here, being that having read this along with cites that make it clear the US counts all homicides, there may be a legitimate difference on the statistics being compared. It isn’t evident to me the igeek adjustment is correct.
But, most important, as I explained in my comment to russell, I didn’t have a greater point to make other than it was another view on the relationship between culture, firearm availability and homicide rates that had some interesting statistical breakdowns to consider.
Clear, as is this from one of the documents in the references cited.
“5.Ā Ā Homicide statistics too vary widely. In some developing countries, the statistics are known to be far from complete. Figures for crimes labelled as homicide in various countries are simply not comparable. Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise. This reduces the apparent number of homicides by between 13 per cent and 15 per cent. The adjustment is made only in respect of figures shown in one part of the Annual Criminal Statistics. In another part relating to the use of firearms, no adjustment is made. A table of the number of homicides in which firearms were used in England and Wales will therefore differ according to which section of the annual statistics was used as its base. Similarly in statistics relating to the use of firearms, a homicide will be recorded where the firearm was used as a blunt instrument, but in the specific homicide statistics, that case will be shown under “blunt instrument”.
Ā Ā 36.Ā Ā Many countries, including the United States, do not adjust their statistics down in that way and their figures include cases of self defence, killings by police and justifiable homicides. In Portugal, cases in which the cause of death is unknown are included in the homicide figures, inflating the apparent homicide rate very considerably”
My point, here, being that having read this along with cites that make it clear the US counts all homicides, there may be a legitimate difference on the statistics being compared. It isn’t evident to me the igeek adjustment is correct.
But, most important, as I explained in my comment to russell, I didn’t have a greater point to make other than it was another view on the relationship between culture, firearm availability and homicide rates that had some interesting statistical breakdowns to consider.
And isn’t this fun?
http://observer.com/2018/02/michael-steele-responds-to-racial-insult-hurled-by-cpac-communications-director/
Money quote (from CPAC communications director Ian Walters)
And yet these folks get upset when someone notes that they’re racists….
And isn’t this fun?
http://observer.com/2018/02/michael-steele-responds-to-racial-insult-hurled-by-cpac-communications-director/
Money quote (from CPAC communications director Ian Walters)
And yet these folks get upset when someone notes that they’re racists….
“Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction” – that does not apply to the figures iGeek uses.
What does apply is this (from the ONS site) “When the police initially record an offence as a homicide, it remains classified as such unless the police or courts decide that a lesser offence, or no offence, took place. In all, 530 deaths were initially recorded as homicides by the police in the year ending March 2015 and by 13 November 2015, 12 were no longer recorded as homicides, giving a total of 518 offences currently recorded as homicides.” So the difference is tiny.
The source you quote claims a reduction 13-15%. The actual numbers show a 2.3% reduction for recent data. iGeek claims, falsely, that “Only between 1/2 and 3/4ths of all [homicides] are counted”. He uses a log scale to conceal what he’s doing, but it looks as if his “adjustment” removes at least half of his (already undercounted) US white homicides.
It really is disreputable to take anything from this dishonest source.
“Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction” – that does not apply to the figures iGeek uses.
What does apply is this (from the ONS site) “When the police initially record an offence as a homicide, it remains classified as such unless the police or courts decide that a lesser offence, or no offence, took place. In all, 530 deaths were initially recorded as homicides by the police in the year ending March 2015 and by 13 November 2015, 12 were no longer recorded as homicides, giving a total of 518 offences currently recorded as homicides.” So the difference is tiny.
The source you quote claims a reduction 13-15%. The actual numbers show a 2.3% reduction for recent data. iGeek claims, falsely, that “Only between 1/2 and 3/4ths of all [homicides] are counted”. He uses a log scale to conceal what he’s doing, but it looks as if his “adjustment” removes at least half of his (already undercounted) US white homicides.
It really is disreputable to take anything from this dishonest source.
The source I cited is a report to Parliament linked to in the article.
You keep using words like lie and disreputable, where the sources are perfectly reputable.
You don’t believe the adjustment is appropriate based on your review of the various sources, I have said twice now that I don’t necessarily disagree with that assessment.
I disagree with your reaction that they are lies or disreputable. They are statistics subject to some level of adjustment as the information is collected, classified and reported differently.
The source I cited is a report to Parliament linked to in the article.
You keep using words like lie and disreputable, where the sources are perfectly reputable.
You don’t believe the adjustment is appropriate based on your review of the various sources, I have said twice now that I don’t necessarily disagree with that assessment.
I disagree with your reaction that they are lies or disreputable. They are statistics subject to some level of adjustment as the information is collected, classified and reported differently.
The homicide rate in vast parts of the US are significantly lower than in the UK. But you jeep leaning on that one statistic to make you feel better.
These two sentences were written together with no sense of irony.
The homicide rate in vast parts of the US are significantly lower than in the UK. But you jeep leaning on that one statistic to make you feel better.
These two sentences were written together with no sense of irony.
Not so
Not so
Marty, the differences in methodology you mention make a difference of a few percent. iGeek uses these as an excuse to “adjust” the white homicide rate in the USA, which is about 3 per 100000, down to less than 1 per 100000. If you want to say he’s stupid rather than lying, ok.
But “I don’t necessarily disagree” is weaselling.
Marty, the differences in methodology you mention make a difference of a few percent. iGeek uses these as an excuse to “adjust” the white homicide rate in the USA, which is about 3 per 100000, down to less than 1 per 100000. If you want to say he’s stupid rather than lying, ok.
But “I don’t necessarily disagree” is weaselling.
Pro Bono, Well the numbers you used above to calculate that 3 were completely incorrect. You misread the table 3400 is about 200 too high and then overestimated the white population 50 million or so. The 5004 counts more crimes, and includes Hispanics, so your stats were all over the place.
I just interpreted that as you quickly trying to make a point, so I just let it go. Stats are easy to throw around, and I appreciated getting your take and the different input.
Pro Bono, Well the numbers you used above to calculate that 3 were completely incorrect. You misread the table 3400 is about 200 too high and then overestimated the white population 50 million or so. The 5004 counts more crimes, and includes Hispanics, so your stats were all over the place.
I just interpreted that as you quickly trying to make a point, so I just let it go. Stats are easy to throw around, and I appreciated getting your take and the different input.
wj: And yet these folks get upset when someone notes that they’re racists
How-dare-you-call-me-racist-type racists are even more despicable than David-Duke-type racists, IMHO. At least the Duke types don’t try to sail under a false flag.
By the same token, the MY-guns-have-nothing-to-do-with-crime-because-I’m-white-and-suburban-type of “responsible” gun owners are pretty goddam despicable. But don’t you dare call them racist.
–TP
wj: And yet these folks get upset when someone notes that they’re racists
How-dare-you-call-me-racist-type racists are even more despicable than David-Duke-type racists, IMHO. At least the Duke types don’t try to sail under a false flag.
By the same token, the MY-guns-have-nothing-to-do-with-crime-because-I’m-white-and-suburban-type of “responsible” gun owners are pretty goddam despicable. But don’t you dare call them racist.
–TP
Marty, well I don’t mind admitting that the interaction between “race” and “ethnicity” is unclear to me. But breaking the numbers down as best as I can, I get that about 40% of homicides in the US are committed by non-hispanic whites, which makes the rate about 2.5 per 100,000. There’s no way on earth any honest analyst could factor that down to less than 1 by allowing for a few percent difference in methodology. But we’re not dealing with an honest analyst, are we?
Marty, well I don’t mind admitting that the interaction between “race” and “ethnicity” is unclear to me. But breaking the numbers down as best as I can, I get that about 40% of homicides in the US are committed by non-hispanic whites, which makes the rate about 2.5 per 100,000. There’s no way on earth any honest analyst could factor that down to less than 1 by allowing for a few percent difference in methodology. But we’re not dealing with an honest analyst, are we?
Tony, I don’t think I’d got with “more despicable”. At least some of them sincerely don’t recognize that they have a problem.
For the ones who are just lying to cover up their racism, sure — despicable. But for the merely self-deluding? Not really — they’ve got a problem, but it’s not a false flag one.
Tony, I don’t think I’d got with “more despicable”. At least some of them sincerely don’t recognize that they have a problem.
For the ones who are just lying to cover up their racism, sure — despicable. But for the merely self-deluding? Not really — they’ve got a problem, but it’s not a false flag one.
I’m not going to defile lj’s memorial to the dead with my brand of fuck off to those who need to fuck off, but this is the thread:
https://m.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Texas-police-shoot-man-who-disarmed-possible-12704202.php?utm_source=email&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=Chron_morning%2520headlines
Seems to me the teachers who will be packing, and who haven’t already discharged their weapons into
their own crotches at the first sign of trouble, should be in radio contact at all times, yes, every minute, throughout class, with local law enforcement so everyone gets the coordinates precisely correct when air support is called in.
Hello students, my name is Mrs. Friendlyfire, and I’ll be your substitute teacher today.
I’m not going to defile lj’s memorial to the dead with my brand of fuck off to those who need to fuck off, but this is the thread:
https://m.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Texas-police-shoot-man-who-disarmed-possible-12704202.php?utm_source=email&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=Chron_morning%2520headlines
Seems to me the teachers who will be packing, and who haven’t already discharged their weapons into
their own crotches at the first sign of trouble, should be in radio contact at all times, yes, every minute, throughout class, with local law enforcement so everyone gets the coordinates precisely correct when air support is called in.
Hello students, my name is Mrs. Friendlyfire, and I’ll be your substitute teacher today.
It takes a stunning lack of imagination not to appreciate the chaos of a school shooting being heightened by arming a bunch of civilians inside the school.
It takes a stunning lack of imagination not to appreciate the chaos of a school shooting being heightened by arming a bunch of civilians inside the school.
and who is going to pay to arm and train all these teachers?
not the GOP, that’s for sure.
and who is going to pay to arm and train all these teachers?
not the GOP, that’s for sure.
Why not the GOP? They can use the money saved by eliminating all those biology textbooks which mention evolution/ š
Why not the GOP? They can use the money saved by eliminating all those biology textbooks which mention evolution/ š
A simple and elegant solution: teachers on school grounds have to wear a bright court fool* outfit (optionally with sewn-in armor plating) but the same outfit is banned within point blank firing range outside the fence.
So the police can immediately recognize the good guys, and no bad guy can sneak in disguised as a good guy because it will be standing policy that anyone with it in the exclusion zone will be gunned down immediately by the automatic sentry turrets to be installed (even very basic recognition software should be able to distinguish between normal clothing and a fool suit).
*that’s what movement conservatives think of teachers anyway, isn’t it?
A simple and elegant solution: teachers on school grounds have to wear a bright court fool* outfit (optionally with sewn-in armor plating) but the same outfit is banned within point blank firing range outside the fence.
So the police can immediately recognize the good guys, and no bad guy can sneak in disguised as a good guy because it will be standing policy that anyone with it in the exclusion zone will be gunned down immediately by the automatic sentry turrets to be installed (even very basic recognition software should be able to distinguish between normal clothing and a fool suit).
*that’s what movement conservatives think of teachers anyway, isn’t it?
We’re collectively like the frog in a pot of gradually heated water, having been brought over the course of years to where we’re actually spending brain cells and precious moments of our lives (“we” including me) commenting on the notion that we should turn our schools into theaters of war. As if there’s even enough of a shred of sanity in the idea to make it worth responding to.
What is it a smokescreen for this time, anyhow?
Not to knock anyone here for snarking about it, I’m doing it myself, obviously. But I’m just so fed up with it, and so thankful for these kids in Florida who, as I have probably already said, I hope are the pebble that starts the avalanche.
We’re collectively like the frog in a pot of gradually heated water, having been brought over the course of years to where we’re actually spending brain cells and precious moments of our lives (“we” including me) commenting on the notion that we should turn our schools into theaters of war. As if there’s even enough of a shred of sanity in the idea to make it worth responding to.
What is it a smokescreen for this time, anyhow?
Not to knock anyone here for snarking about it, I’m doing it myself, obviously. But I’m just so fed up with it, and so thankful for these kids in Florida who, as I have probably already said, I hope are the pebble that starts the avalanche.
and who is going to pay to arm and train all these teachers?
not the GOP, that’s for sure.
And who’s going to pay them?
not the GOP, that’s for sure.
and who is going to pay to arm and train all these teachers?
not the GOP, that’s for sure.
And who’s going to pay them?
not the GOP, that’s for sure.
The Moderate frog is always in a bind. He always has to acknowledge both sides of the temperature question, and avoid ascribing bad motives to the hand on the burner knob. To be truly Moderate, the frog must even denounce the troublemaking alarmists on his left.
The Voice of Moderation is the polite croak of a dying frog.
–TP
The Moderate frog is always in a bind. He always has to acknowledge both sides of the temperature question, and avoid ascribing bad motives to the hand on the burner knob. To be truly Moderate, the frog must even denounce the troublemaking alarmists on his left.
The Voice of Moderation is the polite croak of a dying frog.
–TP
The Voice of Moderation is the polite croak of a dying frog.
If this is truly your opinion (see the banner at the top of the page), why are you here? A fondness for dying frogs, perhaps?
The Voice of Moderation is the polite croak of a dying frog.
If this is truly your opinion (see the banner at the top of the page), why are you here? A fondness for dying frogs, perhaps?
As if there’s even enough of a shred of sanity in the idea to make it worth responding to…
That is the conundrum – how effectively to respond to the constant stream of pernicious nonsense emanating from the White House.
Trump is the high fructose corn syrup of political life: poisonous but addictive…
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/trump-wouldve-tried-to-stop-parkland-massacre-with-bare-hands-he-says.html?
As if there’s even enough of a shred of sanity in the idea to make it worth responding to…
That is the conundrum – how effectively to respond to the constant stream of pernicious nonsense emanating from the White House.
Trump is the high fructose corn syrup of political life: poisonous but addictive…
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/trump-wouldve-tried-to-stop-parkland-massacre-with-bare-hands-he-says.html?
wj: If this is truly your opinion … why are you here?
Same reasons you’re in the GOP: habit, sentiment, loyalty, that sort of thing.
Plus the (possibly forlorn) hope that I can help redefine “moderation” to mean something closer to “sanity”, of course.
–TP
wj: If this is truly your opinion … why are you here?
Same reasons you’re in the GOP: habit, sentiment, loyalty, that sort of thing.
Plus the (possibly forlorn) hope that I can help redefine “moderation” to mean something closer to “sanity”, of course.
–TP
Think of the tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer dollars saved on impeaching the criminal traitor lout if he HAD run in there and tried to fend off semi-automatic gunfire with his small soft hands.
Aaaah, but he’d tell Pence to run in there unarmed first, and good riddance to that pig too.
No? OK, Kellyann, you go in first and shake your tits at the shooter to distract him.
Matt Bevin, Chief Executioner in Kentucky, who murders by other means, can run interference for the two of the them.
Thing is, then we’d have to erect monuments to shooter Cruz in townsquares across the country for accidentally saving the country from this infestation of republican filth.
Well, we’ve honored more lethal motherfuckers in the past.
This observation by lj struck me:
“I googled for lists and saw that Good Housekeeping has published one. How’s that for normalization?”
Further normalization of mass murder by Second Amendment fetishists I expect to see:
Martha Stewart and Dana Loesch teaming up to recommend proper etiquette during middle school gunfights between teachers and shooters, leading off with the shooter must raise his or her and receive the teacher’s permission to shoot first.
Also, separate lounges for the live teachers and the dead teachers. Teacher of the Year Awards will now include a category called “body counts”.
Kimberly Strassel, always a fraught name to my ears, like Melody Boorman, or Tricksy Eichmann, or Aspen Himmler, or Heidi Hitler, suggests keeping flash grenades handy in teacher arsenals.
That one I didn’t have to make up, and thus it’s the funniest, like a live toaster thrown into a kiddie wading pool.
The NRA suggested shopping list for the back to school season for teachers, all of which they must pay for, as usual from reduced paychecks, especially after the Supreme Court fucks their unions:
Smiley Face Stickers and Gold Stars
Printer Paper
Subscription to Highlights Magazine
The Glock Model 19 Gen4 standard in a 9x19mm round and fully loaded 15-round magazine capacity
Revolving Globe of the World sans shitholes
Seltzer Bottle
White Board Erasers
Three boxes of Glock 19 plinker ammo
Smocks for fingerpainting
Anatomical accurate model of Abraham Lincoln’s head for target practice
American flag
North Korean flag
Bandaids
50lb bags of lime
Jump ropes for recess
Trip wires
Full-color posters of beautiful natural settings and the changing seasons to relax the students
Live therapy bunny rabbit in cage for petting, to relax the kids
Bullet-proof jacket for bunny
Live crocodile chained to one leg of the teacher’s desk, within swallowing distance of the bunny cage, so the kids don’t get too relaxed for learning
___________________________
Does anyone else note the awful self-orbiting twin death-planets of cops who gun down unarmed black kids in hails of gunfire without provocation and cops who can’t pull the trigger when all Hell breaks loose as unarmed kids are being mowed down like crabgrass?
Oh, it’s culture alright.
Think of the tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer dollars saved on impeaching the criminal traitor lout if he HAD run in there and tried to fend off semi-automatic gunfire with his small soft hands.
Aaaah, but he’d tell Pence to run in there unarmed first, and good riddance to that pig too.
No? OK, Kellyann, you go in first and shake your tits at the shooter to distract him.
Matt Bevin, Chief Executioner in Kentucky, who murders by other means, can run interference for the two of the them.
Thing is, then we’d have to erect monuments to shooter Cruz in townsquares across the country for accidentally saving the country from this infestation of republican filth.
Well, we’ve honored more lethal motherfuckers in the past.
This observation by lj struck me:
“I googled for lists and saw that Good Housekeeping has published one. How’s that for normalization?”
Further normalization of mass murder by Second Amendment fetishists I expect to see:
Martha Stewart and Dana Loesch teaming up to recommend proper etiquette during middle school gunfights between teachers and shooters, leading off with the shooter must raise his or her and receive the teacher’s permission to shoot first.
Also, separate lounges for the live teachers and the dead teachers. Teacher of the Year Awards will now include a category called “body counts”.
Kimberly Strassel, always a fraught name to my ears, like Melody Boorman, or Tricksy Eichmann, or Aspen Himmler, or Heidi Hitler, suggests keeping flash grenades handy in teacher arsenals.
That one I didn’t have to make up, and thus it’s the funniest, like a live toaster thrown into a kiddie wading pool.
The NRA suggested shopping list for the back to school season for teachers, all of which they must pay for, as usual from reduced paychecks, especially after the Supreme Court fucks their unions:
Smiley Face Stickers and Gold Stars
Printer Paper
Subscription to Highlights Magazine
The Glock Model 19 Gen4 standard in a 9x19mm round and fully loaded 15-round magazine capacity
Revolving Globe of the World sans shitholes
Seltzer Bottle
White Board Erasers
Three boxes of Glock 19 plinker ammo
Smocks for fingerpainting
Anatomical accurate model of Abraham Lincoln’s head for target practice
American flag
North Korean flag
Bandaids
50lb bags of lime
Jump ropes for recess
Trip wires
Full-color posters of beautiful natural settings and the changing seasons to relax the students
Live therapy bunny rabbit in cage for petting, to relax the kids
Bullet-proof jacket for bunny
Live crocodile chained to one leg of the teacher’s desk, within swallowing distance of the bunny cage, so the kids don’t get too relaxed for learning
___________________________
Does anyone else note the awful self-orbiting twin death-planets of cops who gun down unarmed black kids in hails of gunfire without provocation and cops who can’t pull the trigger when all Hell breaks loose as unarmed kids are being mowed down like crabgrass?
Oh, it’s culture alright.
Things are bad in the GOP ..
How bad are they, Johnny?
Funny you should ask, Doc.
(Swivels stiffly and smooths his tie)
Things are so bad in the GOP that the last time wj went to a republican causus meetup, Mona Charen had to escort him afterwards to his car in the parking lot.
Things are bad in the GOP ..
How bad are they, Johnny?
Funny you should ask, Doc.
(Swivels stiffly and smooths his tie)
Things are so bad in the GOP that the last time wj went to a republican causus meetup, Mona Charen had to escort him afterwards to his car in the parking lot.
Forgot one normalization feature by early next year:
FOX News’ new mid-day cooking show, featuring the favorite recipes of school mass shooters.
Featured chef: Ted Nugent preparing his twice shot border wetback studded with buckshot.
Next week: Dana Loesch’s Eat Me Tips for Children’s Parties
Forgot one normalization feature by early next year:
FOX News’ new mid-day cooking show, featuring the favorite recipes of school mass shooters.
Featured chef: Ted Nugent preparing his twice shot border wetback studded with buckshot.
Next week: Dana Loesch’s Eat Me Tips for Children’s Parties
I suppose we should consider ourselves fortunate that Dana Loesch didn’t reprise her earlier hits and deliver a Golden Shower on the corpses of those school kids, telling them “Have a great day, buddy”.
I suppose we should consider ourselves fortunate that Dana Loesch didn’t reprise her earlier hits and deliver a Golden Shower on the corpses of those school kids, telling them “Have a great day, buddy”.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/georgia-lieutenant-governor-threatens-delta-after-it-cuts-ties-with-nra/ar-BBJCOYt
Should that vermin piece of garbage become Governor, Delta Airlines should move their operations out of that Confederate territory and refuse boarding to all republicans and/or NRA members on their aircraft.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/georgia-lieutenant-governor-threatens-delta-after-it-cuts-ties-with-nra/ar-BBJCOYt
Should that vermin piece of garbage become Governor, Delta Airlines should move their operations out of that Confederate territory and refuse boarding to all republicans and/or NRA members on their aircraft.
Count, you do realize, I trust, that this is great news. Because Delta just happens to have a few dollars that it could decide to donate to whoever runs against the current Georgia Lt. Governor. For anyone who wants to turn more of the South blue, that’s got to be a plus.
Count, you do realize, I trust, that this is great news. Because Delta just happens to have a few dollars that it could decide to donate to whoever runs against the current Georgia Lt. Governor. For anyone who wants to turn more of the South blue, that’s got to be a plus.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-26/why-corporate-america-is-fleeing-the-nra
I’m looking forward to being told how elitist Delta and these other companies are for not hanging around and being told who they give discounts to…
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-26/why-corporate-america-is-fleeing-the-nra
I’m looking forward to being told how elitist Delta and these other companies are for not hanging around and being told who they give discounts to…
when we give teachers gun, will they stop assaulting students ?
when we give teachers gun, will they stop assaulting students ?
āThe secret of the demagogue is to make himself as stupid as his audience so they believe they are clever as he.ā
Karl Kraus
āThe secret of the demagogue is to make himself as stupid as his audience so they believe they are clever as he.ā
Karl Kraus
Maybe I’m just completely unprecedentedly turning into a cock-eyed optimist, but like Krugman in today’s New York Times, I think that there may be stirrings of hope…..
Maybe I’m just completely unprecedentedly turning into a cock-eyed optimist, but like Krugman in today’s New York Times, I think that there may be stirrings of hope…..
On the other hand, the first comment after that article is hard to disagree with, particularly the last sentence:
On the other hand, the first comment after that article is hard to disagree with, particularly the last sentence:
What seem s like a very sensible method for fair redistricting:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/how-the-i-cut-you-choose-method-of-redistricting-could-fix-a-broken-system.html?
What seem s like a very sensible method for fair redistricting:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/how-the-i-cut-you-choose-method-of-redistricting-could-fix-a-broken-system.html?
thanks for that, Nigel.
I think that’s fairly close to wj’s suggestion from a few days back. To me, it seems remarkably fair at a practical level – it not only accounts for everyone trying to game the situation, it leverages that to drive the process.
Everybody gets a turn to be greedy.
The only issue I have with it is that it assumes two and only two parties. Which appears to be where we (the US) always land anyway, so maybe we should just learn to live with it.
Twenty-odd years ago, Page and Brin had the remarkable insight that a simple(ish) way to figure out which web pages were most relevant was to measure how many people looked at them.
No need to do elaborate computational analyses of page content. Humans already know what they’re interested in. Just let them tell you.
The algorithmic approaches to districting are really attractive because they are, or at least attempt to be, neutral. Maybe that’s not the way to do it.
Partisans already know which ways of carving up the body politic are in their interest. Just let them tell you. As long as all (really, both) of them get an equal shot, the result will likely approximate real-world fairness.
thanks for that, Nigel.
I think that’s fairly close to wj’s suggestion from a few days back. To me, it seems remarkably fair at a practical level – it not only accounts for everyone trying to game the situation, it leverages that to drive the process.
Everybody gets a turn to be greedy.
The only issue I have with it is that it assumes two and only two parties. Which appears to be where we (the US) always land anyway, so maybe we should just learn to live with it.
Twenty-odd years ago, Page and Brin had the remarkable insight that a simple(ish) way to figure out which web pages were most relevant was to measure how many people looked at them.
No need to do elaborate computational analyses of page content. Humans already know what they’re interested in. Just let them tell you.
The algorithmic approaches to districting are really attractive because they are, or at least attempt to be, neutral. Maybe that’s not the way to do it.
Partisans already know which ways of carving up the body politic are in their interest. Just let them tell you. As long as all (really, both) of them get an equal shot, the result will likely approximate real-world fairness.
The “I cut, you choose” algorithm wj introduced to this forum, *might* be extensible to more than 2 participants.
For example, going round-robin; or with some order randomization to make collusion harder.
Grist for Game Theory papers, if they haven’t already covered that topic extensively.
The “I cut, you choose” algorithm wj introduced to this forum, *might* be extensible to more than 2 participants.
For example, going round-robin; or with some order randomization to make collusion harder.
Grist for Game Theory papers, if they haven’t already covered that topic extensively.
The problem with ‘moderates’ is that their ‘position’ isn’t a position at all and their stance is by definition devoid of principles.
The problem with ‘moderates’ is that their ‘position’ isn’t a position at all and their stance is by definition devoid of principles.
“don’t rock the boat, i’m having a nice cruise” is a principle.
“don’t rock the boat, i’m having a nice cruise” is a principle.
The problem with ‘moderates’ is that their ‘position’ isn’t a position at all and their stance is by definition devoid of principles.
You are assuming, incorrectly, that “moderate” is synonymous with “take both sides and split the difference — no matter how extreme either or both of those sides are.”
It is entirely possible, today in the US, to be a moderate and far far closer to the center of the Democratic Party than to the center of the Republican Party. In fact, it’s not just possible, it’s pretty much required for a moderate.
The problem with ‘moderates’ is that their ‘position’ isn’t a position at all and their stance is by definition devoid of principles.
You are assuming, incorrectly, that “moderate” is synonymous with “take both sides and split the difference — no matter how extreme either or both of those sides are.”
It is entirely possible, today in the US, to be a moderate and far far closer to the center of the Democratic Party than to the center of the Republican Party. In fact, it’s not just possible, it’s pretty much required for a moderate.
The problem with ‘moderates’ is that their ‘position’ isn’t a position at all and their stance is by definition devoid of principles.
There are a few Buddhists, among others, who might disagree with that….
The problem with ‘moderates’ is that their ‘position’ isn’t a position at all and their stance is by definition devoid of principles.
There are a few Buddhists, among others, who might disagree with that….
You are all f$cking insane is the moderate position today.
So yeah, there is a principle involved. Calling half the country names and teaching your kids to hate them is pretty much a shared position of everyone that isn’t a moderate today.
You are all f$cking insane is the moderate position today.
So yeah, there is a principle involved. Calling half the country names and teaching your kids to hate them is pretty much a shared position of everyone that isn’t a moderate today.
I don’t teach my kids to hate anyone, and I don’t consider myself to be a (political) moderate.
I don’t teach my kids to hate anyone, and I don’t consider myself to be a (political) moderate.
Calling half the country names and teaching your kids to hate them is pretty much a shared position of everyone that isn’t a moderate today.
Who you talking about, Marty?
Calling half the country names and teaching your kids to hate them is pretty much a shared position of everyone that isn’t a moderate today.
Who you talking about, Marty?
Who you talking about, Marty?
he must’ve just discovered “conservative” talk radio.
been there. it makes for a bleak day.
Who you talking about, Marty?
he must’ve just discovered “conservative” talk radio.
been there. it makes for a bleak day.
Every accusation is a confession, part the infinity?
Every accusation is a confession, part the infinity?
I’m not teaching anybody to hate anybody else, but I am trying to figure out how to think about people I know and in some cases am related to, who are avid Trump supporters.
I’m actually at a loss. It’s like having friends or family that were avid McCarthy-ites, or fanatic Birchers, or maybe Klan members, or thought the fascists weren’t completely wrong about the Jews.
Some of which I actually have, or have had.
So I’d actually like to know what, and how, I’m supposed to think about them. I don’t call them names, I don’t hate them nor do I encourage anyone else to do so. I just don’t know what the etiquette is supposed to be.
Mostly I just ignore it, and we just talk about other stuff.
I’m not teaching anybody to hate anybody else, but I am trying to figure out how to think about people I know and in some cases am related to, who are avid Trump supporters.
I’m actually at a loss. It’s like having friends or family that were avid McCarthy-ites, or fanatic Birchers, or maybe Klan members, or thought the fascists weren’t completely wrong about the Jews.
Some of which I actually have, or have had.
So I’d actually like to know what, and how, I’m supposed to think about them. I don’t call them names, I don’t hate them nor do I encourage anyone else to do so. I just don’t know what the etiquette is supposed to be.
Mostly I just ignore it, and we just talk about other stuff.
Every accusation is a confession, part the infinity?
I don’t find this to be true in Marty’s case.
Every accusation is a confession, part the infinity?
I don’t find this to be true in Marty’s case.
Mostly I just ignore it, and we just talk about other stuff.
Likewise. The biggest challenge, I find, is conspiracy theory enthusiasts. If only because they seem to be able to work their enthusiasm into almost any topic.
Mostly I just ignore it, and we just talk about other stuff.
Likewise. The biggest challenge, I find, is conspiracy theory enthusiasts. If only because they seem to be able to work their enthusiasm into almost any topic.
Ahh, normality.
Novakant (god, that name cracks me up) asserts a categorical imperative and a bunch of people say well, it is useful to try and be moderate and then Marty pops up and says ha! you are all a bunch of hypocrites because some fevered swamp dream of indoctrination (of our children!). I can’t teach my kids to pick up their shit, how am I going to convince them to hate people who toss out bullshit stats?
Speaking about moderation, I’m from the south, so my facebook feed has a lot of really really dubious things. A lot. Should I call them out? I wonder, but they I realize how little impact it would have (He’s in Japan, he just doesn’t understand) and I give it a pass. But a lot of these people seem to realize how idiotic the notion of arming teachers is, and are posting stuff that surprises me, in a good way. That’s the thing about tipping points, you only see them in retrospect. Though I’m sure we’ll be told that this all happened because moderates demonized conservatives.
Ahh, normality.
Novakant (god, that name cracks me up) asserts a categorical imperative and a bunch of people say well, it is useful to try and be moderate and then Marty pops up and says ha! you are all a bunch of hypocrites because some fevered swamp dream of indoctrination (of our children!). I can’t teach my kids to pick up their shit, how am I going to convince them to hate people who toss out bullshit stats?
Speaking about moderation, I’m from the south, so my facebook feed has a lot of really really dubious things. A lot. Should I call them out? I wonder, but they I realize how little impact it would have (He’s in Japan, he just doesn’t understand) and I give it a pass. But a lot of these people seem to realize how idiotic the notion of arming teachers is, and are posting stuff that surprises me, in a good way. That’s the thing about tipping points, you only see them in retrospect. Though I’m sure we’ll be told that this all happened because moderates demonized conservatives.
russell, I find, found, myself with a fb feed full of people who just pull up the latest article mocking or threatening the other side and posting it. Then the comment thread. I can mentally have this argument, both sides, in my sleep. The names and threats just getting harsher.
I find there is no one to talk to, otherwise a comment now and then here.
I follow 16 people on fb0 now.
russell, I find, found, myself with a fb feed full of people who just pull up the latest article mocking or threatening the other side and posting it. Then the comment thread. I can mentally have this argument, both sides, in my sleep. The names and threats just getting harsher.
I find there is no one to talk to, otherwise a comment now and then here.
I follow 16 people on fb0 now.
should,I call the out ?
Probably not.
Indeed if you don’t ignore the trolls, you might likely be actively subsidising them:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/27/why-democrats-need-to-worry-about-trump-facebook-370014
An important lesson.
should,I call the out ?
Probably not.
Indeed if you don’t ignore the trolls, you might likely be actively subsidising them:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/27/why-democrats-need-to-worry-about-trump-facebook-370014
An important lesson.
Nigel, as much as I admire Buddhism, I’m not sure if its teachings can easily be translated into the sphere of politics.
Nigel, as much as I admire Buddhism, I’m not sure if its teachings can easily be translated into the sphere of politics.
It’s arguably difficult to translate any deep principles ‘into the sphere of politics’ – but I was taking exception to your comment their stance is by definition devoid of principles and presenting a fairly straightforward example of a principled ‘middle way’.
It’s arguably difficult to translate any deep principles ‘into the sphere of politics’ – but I was taking exception to your comment their stance is by definition devoid of principles and presenting a fairly straightforward example of a principled ‘middle way’.
I find, found, myself with a fb feed full of people who just pull up the latest article mocking or threatening the other side and posting it.
2 points. First, I don’t think that anyone here is on your FB friends list. Second, the thing all those people have in common is you.
I suppose an argument could be made that FB is showing us what people really think. But to me, what drives FB is that it feels like ‘your’ space, which I think is why people react so strongly when confronted with opinions they don’t care for. If you hear someone taking the opposite side of an issue on the bus or a couple of tables down at a restaurant, you can shrug it off, if that person suddenly appears in your living room and starts saying that, you might react. I think that is what drives that kind of online interaction.
I find, found, myself with a fb feed full of people who just pull up the latest article mocking or threatening the other side and posting it.
2 points. First, I don’t think that anyone here is on your FB friends list. Second, the thing all those people have in common is you.
I suppose an argument could be made that FB is showing us what people really think. But to me, what drives FB is that it feels like ‘your’ space, which I think is why people react so strongly when confronted with opinions they don’t care for. If you hear someone taking the opposite side of an issue on the bus or a couple of tables down at a restaurant, you can shrug it off, if that person suddenly appears in your living room and starts saying that, you might react. I think that is what drives that kind of online interaction.
“everybody is so mean” is the new GOP talking point.
why they all chose this week to feel bad about this stuff is beyond me. they didn’t seem to give a shit about it two years ago.
“everybody is so mean” is the new GOP talking point.
why they all chose this week to feel bad about this stuff is beyond me. they didn’t seem to give a shit about it two years ago.
Not exactly on point, but sort of. Fake news!!!
https://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/television/article/Shooting-survivor-s-father-admits-email-changes-12714217.php
Not exactly on point, but sort of. Fake news!!!
https://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/television/article/Shooting-survivor-s-father-admits-email-changes-12714217.php
Filed under “entertainment.”
Filed under “entertainment.”
they didn’t seem to give a shit about it two years ago.
Hilary’s “deplorables” comment famously solidified Trump’s support.
We’ll see what that T-shirt does in November.
they didn’t seem to give a shit about it two years ago.
Hilary’s “deplorables” comment famously solidified Trump’s support.
We’ll see what that T-shirt does in November.
my my, such a swamp drainer
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/business/jared-kushner-apollo-citigroup-loans.html?smid=tw-share
my my, such a swamp drainer
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/business/jared-kushner-apollo-citigroup-loans.html?smid=tw-share
You know, I’m pretty sure North Korea thinks it can win a nuclear war against mp and his crime family.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/02/28/gunfondlers-open-thread-phrasing/
You know, I’m pretty sure North Korea thinks it can win a nuclear war against mp and his crime family.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/02/28/gunfondlers-open-thread-phrasing/
Conservative principles spreading throughout government like a rapist’s sperm through a roofied, underaged virgin’s vagina.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/kushners-business-got-big-loans-after-white-house-meetings-report-2018-02-28?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Firing squads going 24 hours a day for years to execute the republican menace.
Dig a pit.
Conservative principles spreading throughout government like a rapist’s sperm through a roofied, underaged virgin’s vagina.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/kushners-business-got-big-loans-after-white-house-meetings-report-2018-02-28?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Firing squads going 24 hours a day for years to execute the republican menace.
Dig a pit.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/05/the-nra-lobbyist-behind-floridas-pro-gun-policies
So, if Marion Hammer, that NRA republican c*nt, had been shot in the head a long fucking time ago, in the street, like the dog she is, how many children, with names like Meadow …. their parents having lovingly chosen those names for their newborns and dressed them for their first day in kindergarten, in a public school, an institution republican vermin want to kill, and perhaps later judged as volunteers dear Meadow’s science fair project for a proud honorable mention … would be innocently schlepping to school tomorrow morning, a little bored, a little lost, a little teenaged, and yet vividly alive, if not for c&nt Hammer.
Hammer’s an abortionist, of the post-born variety.
She is a murderer.
She’s a republican.
She will hang.
She’ll be maybe 1,019,718th in line at the gallows.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/05/the-nra-lobbyist-behind-floridas-pro-gun-policies
So, if Marion Hammer, that NRA republican c*nt, had been shot in the head a long fucking time ago, in the street, like the dog she is, how many children, with names like Meadow …. their parents having lovingly chosen those names for their newborns and dressed them for their first day in kindergarten, in a public school, an institution republican vermin want to kill, and perhaps later judged as volunteers dear Meadow’s science fair project for a proud honorable mention … would be innocently schlepping to school tomorrow morning, a little bored, a little lost, a little teenaged, and yet vividly alive, if not for c&nt Hammer.
Hammer’s an abortionist, of the post-born variety.
She is a murderer.
She’s a republican.
She will hang.
She’ll be maybe 1,019,718th in line at the gallows.
i am obliged, even if only as something of a formality at this point, to note that the posting rules prohibit calls for the assassination of any person.
the posting rules also cite Naziism as a kind of ideological ne plus ultra, fwiw. they are almost 15 years old at this point, perhaps they are a reflection of a kinder, gentler, more innocent time.
that said – c’mon man, give it a rest. we love you dude, but you can’t just use us as a place to vent your bile. you have better things to say, say those.
i am obliged, even if only as something of a formality at this point, to note that the posting rules prohibit calls for the assassination of any person.
the posting rules also cite Naziism as a kind of ideological ne plus ultra, fwiw. they are almost 15 years old at this point, perhaps they are a reflection of a kinder, gentler, more innocent time.
that said – c’mon man, give it a rest. we love you dude, but you can’t just use us as a place to vent your bile. you have better things to say, say those.
and all of that said, yes, hammer has made a mission and also no doubt a handsome living out of promoting the unfettered availability and use of instuments of death.
my guess is that Parkland has not altered her point of view in any way.
some people freaking love guns and everything about them. if someone exhibited the same enthusiasm about poisons, or biological toxins, or explosives, we’d be alarmed, and would no doubt do something about it.
go ahead and advertise some napalm for sale on craigslist. i hope your local coppers pay you a visit. you should hope so, too.
but guns – any kind of guns – are all good. they are celebrated.
it’s perverse.
and all of that said, yes, hammer has made a mission and also no doubt a handsome living out of promoting the unfettered availability and use of instuments of death.
my guess is that Parkland has not altered her point of view in any way.
some people freaking love guns and everything about them. if someone exhibited the same enthusiasm about poisons, or biological toxins, or explosives, we’d be alarmed, and would no doubt do something about it.
go ahead and advertise some napalm for sale on craigslist. i hope your local coppers pay you a visit. you should hope so, too.
but guns – any kind of guns – are all good. they are celebrated.
it’s perverse.
Perverse, indeed.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns-church/couples-lug-ar-15-assault-rifles-to-pennsylvania-church-blessing-idUSKCN1GC2V3
Perverse, indeed.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns-church/couples-lug-ar-15-assault-rifles-to-pennsylvania-church-blessing-idUSKCN1GC2V3
Moonies!
it’s probably a coincidence that the current head of the Moon family also owns Karh Arms.
Moonies!
it’s probably a coincidence that the current head of the Moon family also owns Karh Arms.
It’s so f**ked up. Stranger than fiction.
It’s so f**ked up. Stranger than fiction.
Hey, Count. How about something on the state of Spring Training and the number of free agents still rattling around? Just for a little variety.
Hey, Count. How about something on the state of Spring Training and the number of free agents still rattling around? Just for a little variety.
Yes, russell, I should not have pulled the trigger on that post.
Delete it if you wish.
Yes, russell, I should not have pulled the trigger on that post.
Delete it if you wish.
Not meaning to pile on, but what Thor said to Bruce Banner in Thor Ragnarok
Hey, big guy. Sun’s getting real low…
Not meaning to pile on, but what Thor said to Bruce Banner in Thor Ragnarok
Hey, big guy. Sun’s getting real low…
Hmmm…
“During National Rifle Association annual conventions, when about 80,000 gun owners spend a few days focused on seminars, events, and meetings, America seems to be safer, new research suggests.
More specifically, the rate of firearm-related injuries when NRA members gather en masse falls by 20% nationwide, according to a study published Wednesday in the New England Journal of Medicine.”
Gun injuries fall during NRA conventions, study says
Hmmm…
“During National Rifle Association annual conventions, when about 80,000 gun owners spend a few days focused on seminars, events, and meetings, America seems to be safer, new research suggests.
More specifically, the rate of firearm-related injuries when NRA members gather en masse falls by 20% nationwide, according to a study published Wednesday in the New England Journal of Medicine.”
Gun injuries fall during NRA conventions, study says
Well, if you have the biggest gun enthusiasts spending the week in a gun-free zone….
Well, if you have the biggest gun enthusiasts spending the week in a gun-free zone….
https://www.thedailybeast.com/these-groups-make-the-nra-look-like-a-bastion-of-moderationand-they-could-determine-the-current-gun-debate?via=newsletter&source=AMDigestOrig_ABTest
https://www.thedailybeast.com/these-groups-make-the-nra-look-like-a-bastion-of-moderationand-they-could-determine-the-current-gun-debate?via=newsletter&source=AMDigestOrig_ABTest
You know you’ve got a problem when you have a call for Congress to shut down your policy (on Yemen in this case) from Bernie Sanders (noted arch conservative) and Mike Lee (flaming liberal):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-congress-must-vote-on-the-united-states-role-in-yemen/2018/02/28/2ce853b4-1cc8-11e8-9de1-147dd2df3829_story.html
You just don’t get a more bi-partisan rejection than that!
You know you’ve got a problem when you have a call for Congress to shut down your policy (on Yemen in this case) from Bernie Sanders (noted arch conservative) and Mike Lee (flaming liberal):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-congress-must-vote-on-the-united-states-role-in-yemen/2018/02/28/2ce853b4-1cc8-11e8-9de1-147dd2df3829_story.html
You just don’t get a more bi-partisan rejection than that!
thanks, count.
thanks, count.
Since this is an open thread, does anyone else get stuck having to put information into a spreadsheet that is far better suited to being conveyed by a narrative in text?
What is it about spreadsheets, especially when you’re talking about a relatively small amount of information that isn’t inherently quantitative, and there isn’t much in the way of interrelation between the elements? Can’t people just read one friggin’ paragraph about something?
And I always feel like I’m being asked what color comes between 7 and 8 when I’m trying to fill in the stupid boxes.
Since this is an open thread, does anyone else get stuck having to put information into a spreadsheet that is far better suited to being conveyed by a narrative in text?
What is it about spreadsheets, especially when you’re talking about a relatively small amount of information that isn’t inherently quantitative, and there isn’t much in the way of interrelation between the elements? Can’t people just read one friggin’ paragraph about something?
And I always feel like I’m being asked what color comes between 7 and 8 when I’m trying to fill in the stupid boxes.
I think maybe it’s an attempt to fashion something like a slide show. But without the negative connotations of making things ultra-simplistic.
And no, clearly some people do have an issue with reading a whole paragraph. (Let alone a multi-page briefing paper….)
I think maybe it’s an attempt to fashion something like a slide show. But without the negative connotations of making things ultra-simplistic.
And no, clearly some people do have an issue with reading a whole paragraph. (Let alone a multi-page briefing paper….)
Since this is an open thread, does anyone else get stuck…
Hey, there’s always PowerPoint!
Hahahahaha!!!!
Since this is an open thread, does anyone else get stuck…
Hey, there’s always PowerPoint!
Hahahahaha!!!!
too long; try PPT
too long; try PPT
A disconcerting perspective on Brexit – not that I wasn’t thinking along those lines all along, but it’s nevertheless frightening to see it spelled out:
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n05/william-davies/what-are-they-after
A disconcerting perspective on Brexit – not that I wasn’t thinking along those lines all along, but it’s nevertheless frightening to see it spelled out:
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n05/william-davies/what-are-they-after
Hey, there’s always PowerPoint!
And if that’s not enough, create dynamic links between your spreadsheet data and your PowerPoint slides.
Hey, there’s always PowerPoint!
And if that’s not enough, create dynamic links between your spreadsheet data and your PowerPoint slides.
What really drives me nuts is they’re asking for information they’ve always asked for, but we used to simply write a short narrative for each project. No one read any of it, of course, but it was simple, and I could present whatever facts as I saw fit by writing words explaining what the status was at a high level. I wasn’t (literally!) boxed in by a bunch of weird questions that don’t quite make sense to me.
Maybe I’ll just put “N/A” everywhere. Then they can ask me what’s happening, and I’ll just tell them. Then they can fill in their stupid spreadsheet, since it’s such good idea for something/someone.
What really drives me nuts is they’re asking for information they’ve always asked for, but we used to simply write a short narrative for each project. No one read any of it, of course, but it was simple, and I could present whatever facts as I saw fit by writing words explaining what the status was at a high level. I wasn’t (literally!) boxed in by a bunch of weird questions that don’t quite make sense to me.
Maybe I’ll just put “N/A” everywhere. Then they can ask me what’s happening, and I’ll just tell them. Then they can fill in their stupid spreadsheet, since it’s such good idea for something/someone.
No, don’t put “N/A” everywhere. How about “see cell C17”, where C17 has “see cell E83”, etc. etc.
Well, they *could* ultimately lead to a “N/A”.
On the subject of shooting rates during NRA conventions…what if the NRA national convention was combined with the NRA cruise? I hear that the Bermuda Triangle is especially nice for those.
No, don’t put “N/A” everywhere. How about “see cell C17”, where C17 has “see cell E83”, etc. etc.
Well, they *could* ultimately lead to a “N/A”.
On the subject of shooting rates during NRA conventions…what if the NRA national convention was combined with the NRA cruise? I hear that the Bermuda Triangle is especially nice for those.
s/NRA cruise/NRO cruise/
s/NRA cruise/NRO cruise/
Interesting article, novakant, thanks.
Interesting article, novakant, thanks.
…it was simple, and I could present whatever facts as I saw fit by writing words explaining what the status was at a high level. I wasn’t (literally!) boxed in by a bunch of weird questions that don’t quite make sense to me.
Maybe your real problem is with the questions and not the spreadsheet. š
Of course, you may not want to listen to me, because I love spreadsheets almost as much as I love bread. I use them for all kinds of things they probably weren’t meant for. But I hate questionnaires and polls, which always box you into inadequate spaces unless they involve the simplest of factoids.
My daughter is a writer, and she and I have been trying to write a novel together for years. It’s mostly in my hands at this point (that’s why it’s not done), and I have almost everything about it in a spreadsheet except the actual prose. Outline, timeline, notes on maps I want to draw, lists of cross-references, family histories, village history, etc. etc.
On the Balloon-Juice writing threads, people often mention software they like that is designed to help authors manage big projects like novels. I tried installing one of those once but found it unintuitive and time-intensive just to set up. Finally I threw up my hands and said: what do I need this for, I have Excel!
…it was simple, and I could present whatever facts as I saw fit by writing words explaining what the status was at a high level. I wasn’t (literally!) boxed in by a bunch of weird questions that don’t quite make sense to me.
Maybe your real problem is with the questions and not the spreadsheet. š
Of course, you may not want to listen to me, because I love spreadsheets almost as much as I love bread. I use them for all kinds of things they probably weren’t meant for. But I hate questionnaires and polls, which always box you into inadequate spaces unless they involve the simplest of factoids.
My daughter is a writer, and she and I have been trying to write a novel together for years. It’s mostly in my hands at this point (that’s why it’s not done), and I have almost everything about it in a spreadsheet except the actual prose. Outline, timeline, notes on maps I want to draw, lists of cross-references, family histories, village history, etc. etc.
On the Balloon-Juice writing threads, people often mention software they like that is designed to help authors manage big projects like novels. I tried installing one of those once but found it unintuitive and time-intensive just to set up. Finally I threw up my hands and said: what do I need this for, I have Excel!
I have almost everything about it in a spreadsheet except the actual prose.
In 5th grade, I got the one lesson that I actually remember (as opposed to merely knowing I must have learned) from grammar school: how to outline. I tend to use it for anything I am writing that is going to be more than a page long.
And it has the added bonus that if folds neatly into a PPT slide, if I’m required to produce something like that. Including putting the core idea of a paragraph or section into a short phrase that is, essentially, a bullet point.
I have almost everything about it in a spreadsheet except the actual prose.
In 5th grade, I got the one lesson that I actually remember (as opposed to merely knowing I must have learned) from grammar school: how to outline. I tend to use it for anything I am writing that is going to be more than a page long.
And it has the added bonus that if folds neatly into a PPT slide, if I’m required to produce something like that. Including putting the core idea of a paragraph or section into a short phrase that is, essentially, a bullet point.
Maybe your real problem is with the questions and not the spreadsheet. š
Yeah. One large cell for each project requesting a paragraph describing the current status of the project. Then Iād have no problem with the spreadsheet!
Maybe your real problem is with the questions and not the spreadsheet. š
Yeah. One large cell for each project requesting a paragraph describing the current status of the project. Then Iād have no problem with the spreadsheet!
you could write a project summary and put one word in each spreadsheet cell.
you could write a project summary and put one word in each spreadsheet cell.
I use them for all kinds of things they probably weren’t meant for.
do you… paint with them?
https://sploid.gizmodo.com/this-japanese-artist-paints-with-microsoft-excel-instea-1820926639
I use them for all kinds of things they probably weren’t meant for.
do you… paint with them?
https://sploid.gizmodo.com/this-japanese-artist-paints-with-microsoft-excel-instea-1820926639
@cleek…
“
As a matter of fact, I do. Nothing like the artist at your link, but just playing around with math and color. I would like to do more of it, and more complex ones, but don’t have time right now. Maybe when I retire, though admittedly at that point I will probably want some other environment than Excel. GIMP has a Python extension…but I’d have to learn some Python…and GIMP itself is anything but intuitive. We’ll see.
Newton’s method on x^4 = 1 (hat tip to James Gleick’s Chaos):
Or some kaleidoscopes:
Or this one, which was a visual solution to a puzzle our boss once gave a bunch of us around the water cooler:
@cleek…
“
As a matter of fact, I do. Nothing like the artist at your link, but just playing around with math and color. I would like to do more of it, and more complex ones, but don’t have time right now. Maybe when I retire, though admittedly at that point I will probably want some other environment than Excel. GIMP has a Python extension…but I’d have to learn some Python…and GIMP itself is anything but intuitive. We’ll see.
Newton’s method on x^4 = 1 (hat tip to James Gleick’s Chaos):
Or some kaleidoscopes:
Or this one, which was a visual solution to a puzzle our boss once gave a bunch of us around the water cooler:
Wow, JanieM.
Wow, JanieM.
sweet!
i’ve written many fractal drawing programs in my day, but i would have never thought to do them in Excel!
here’s my crowning achievement:
it prints the Mandelbrot set.
sweet!
i’ve written many fractal drawing programs in my day, but i would have never thought to do them in Excel!
here’s my crowning achievement:
it prints the Mandelbrot set.
I met an archivist by the name of Mandelbrot over Christmas, and asked him if he was any relation. He said he was a cousin, but had no idea what the Mandelbrot set actually was. I, a non-mathematician, had to explain. All I could do was describe what the pictures looked like…..
I met an archivist by the name of Mandelbrot over Christmas, and asked him if he was any relation. He said he was a cousin, but had no idea what the Mandelbrot set actually was. I, a non-mathematician, had to explain. All I could do was describe what the pictures looked like…..
the mathematical description completely fails to convey how awesome the thing looks when drawn with all the pretty colors.
the mathematical description completely fails to convey how awesome the thing looks when drawn with all the pretty colors.
I wrote my first Mandelbrot program in the mid-’80s. Took all night on a mini computer to fill the screen.
I wrote my first Mandelbrot program in the mid-’80s. Took all night on a mini computer to fill the screen.
One thing I do have in common with the artist at cleek’s link:
Since my job stopped being straightforward programming a long time ago, Excel/VBA was the only tool I had ready to hand when I wanted to start playing around. I’d go right on using it, except that Excel has a limit of 64000 unique cell formats. Even 256*256 (R and B, B and G, or whatever) exceeds that, never mind all three colors. So certain kinds of nuance and shading have limits…
One thing I do have in common with the artist at cleek’s link:
Since my job stopped being straightforward programming a long time ago, Excel/VBA was the only tool I had ready to hand when I wanted to start playing around. I’d go right on using it, except that Excel has a limit of 64000 unique cell formats. Even 256*256 (R and B, B and G, or whatever) exceeds that, never mind all three colors. So certain kinds of nuance and shading have limits…
P.S. I’m going to steal your crowning achievement and adapt it….
It wouldn’t be the first time. š
P.S. I’m going to steal your crowning achievement and adapt it….
It wouldn’t be the first time. š
Crap…”your” meaning cleek’s….
Time to focus on just one thing for a while, like work.
Crap…”your” meaning cleek’s….
Time to focus on just one thing for a while, like work.
Another unexpected use of Excel I’ve seen was an animation of an internal combustion engine.
Another unexpected use of Excel I’ve seen was an animation of an internal combustion engine.