by Ugh
One of the selling points of the "tax reform" legislation, now commonly known as the Tax Cuts & Jobs Act, or TCJA (or the Corporate Tax Lawyer Full Employment Act), is that it would in time increase wages by a certain amount. The economists' view of how this would happen is by decreasing the marginal cost of new investments – by both introducing full expensing and lowering the business tax rate (corporate and pass-through). This would cause more capital investment by business, which would increase labor productivity, which would then result in increased wages.*
This is the typical view of economists for, like, forever (technical term). But an interesting thing seems to have happened in the past 25+ (or more) years, which is that increases in labor productivity have not been matched by increases in wages. See, e.g., this paper. See also this article which attributes the decoupling to wage inequality, the average wage rising faster than the median wage. Here is a third paper talking about both.
This has substantial implications for public policy. In the past, increased capital formation could be relied upon to (eventually) increase median wages. If that is no longer the case, then a different approach is needed and it is not clear to me that policy makers, or even economists generally, recognize this. Moreover, this, combined with the anticipated large increase in workplace automation, may mean that median wage increases are a thing of the past, resulting in attendant large negative consequences, a potential crisis.
So, what to do? One idea is a universal basic income. Others include increasing the minimum wage, getting the fed to stop clamping down on inflation worries any time the labor market gets tight, among others (see the third paper). Whatever the solution, it is clearly not on offer from the current U.S. government, and I wonder even if the government changes these things can be done. ISTM that this, along with climate change, are the gigantic, worldwide public policy problems of the coming decades. Whee, as they say.
*Notably there was little, if any, selling of the TCJA before passage by even the GOP on the basis of "big corporations will hand out bonuses!!!" As noted, this is not the economists' view of how it was supposed to work and is also, ISTM, rather disgusting of these businesses to announce their (one-time, and meager relative to the tax cuts) bonuses and tie them to TCJA's passage – a rather cynical and transparent attempt to suck up to Trump. Notably, bonuses deductible in 2017 will reduce taxes at a 35% clip, whereas any bonuses deductible in 2018 only result in tax savings at 21%….
**Related to this is this report from the BLS, which notes "workers in the U.S. business sector worked virtually the same number of hours in 2013 as they had in 1998—approximately 194 billion labor hours.1 What this means is that there was ultimately no growth at all in the number of hours worked over this 15-year period, despite the fact that the U.S population gained over 40 million people during that time, and despite the fact that there were thousands of new businesses established during that time." That seems remarkable to me.
“Looking at the average hourly earnings, however, ignores at least three very important factors: expansion of non-wage benefits, fall in the price of consumer goods and rise in price of services, such as education and healthcare.”
Cost of Living vs. Wage Stagnation in the United States, 1979-2015: Inflation-adjusted wages haven’t gone up, the cost of living has for the most part gone down.
“Looking at the average hourly earnings, however, ignores at least three very important factors: expansion of non-wage benefits, fall in the price of consumer goods and rise in price of services, such as education and healthcare.”
Cost of Living vs. Wage Stagnation in the United States, 1979-2015: Inflation-adjusted wages haven’t gone up, the cost of living has for the most part gone down.
Notably, bonuses deductible in 2017 will reduce taxes at a 35% clip, whereas any bonuses deductible in 2018 only result in tax savings at 21%….
So it’s the more or less the same rationale that led me to pay my 2018 property taxes in 2017. I should be a CEO (or at least a CFO)!
Notably, bonuses deductible in 2017 will reduce taxes at a 35% clip, whereas any bonuses deductible in 2018 only result in tax savings at 21%….
So it’s the more or less the same rationale that led me to pay my 2018 property taxes in 2017. I should be a CEO (or at least a CFO)!
hey, charles, it’s nice to know that a minimum wage worker can purchase a crock pot for 1/2 the real cost as opposed to 1979 prices.
I’m sure somebody who has been bankrupted by health care costs will really appreciate that.
hey, charles, it’s nice to know that a minimum wage worker can purchase a crock pot for 1/2 the real cost as opposed to 1979 prices.
I’m sure somebody who has been bankrupted by health care costs will really appreciate that.
Mmmmmm … stew.
Mmmmmm … stew.
“Every Labor Day, you can count on seeing a spate of news stories saying that “real wages” in the United States haven’t grown since the 1970s. That’s true, more or less, but the reason for the stagnation might surprise you. It’s a complex story, but it boils down to this: Blame health care costs.”
Health Care Costs Are the Reason You’re Not Getting a Raise
“Every Labor Day, you can count on seeing a spate of news stories saying that “real wages” in the United States haven’t grown since the 1970s. That’s true, more or less, but the reason for the stagnation might surprise you. It’s a complex story, but it boils down to this: Blame health care costs.”
Health Care Costs Are the Reason You’re Not Getting a Raise
Inflation-adjusted wages haven’t gone up, the cost of living has for the most part gone down.
It was a tenet of Classical Economics (Smith, Ricardo, Malthus, Marx) that the optimum efficiency wage rate was at the level of sustenance and reproduction and no more. You kept workers alive and multiplyin,’ but you absolutely did not want them able to save or accumulate. As global productivity increases, if it has, and the prices of commodities and worker consumption goods decreases, wages must decrease in order to kept investment funds available.
Workers standard of living can perhaps be better examined by income share, national labour income share vs capital income share. In all these arguments I always look at both: if worker standard of living according to some claims has been reasonably steady, then where has the massive increase in capital income come from. Michal Kalecki is one of the better at this level of analysis.
But it is complicate. Looked up the Smith vs Bentham argument:Smith claimed that high interest rates caused speculation and malinvestment. Keynes agreed. Many now are saying the very low interest rates cause bubbles and financialization. Shrug.
Michael Roberts is my technical Marxian economist. Link is to an article on productivity. Roberts is a declining profits guy, still focusing on manufacturing. I understand little of his stuff, but he and his commenters are erudite and consistent.
Inflation-adjusted wages haven’t gone up, the cost of living has for the most part gone down.
It was a tenet of Classical Economics (Smith, Ricardo, Malthus, Marx) that the optimum efficiency wage rate was at the level of sustenance and reproduction and no more. You kept workers alive and multiplyin,’ but you absolutely did not want them able to save or accumulate. As global productivity increases, if it has, and the prices of commodities and worker consumption goods decreases, wages must decrease in order to kept investment funds available.
Workers standard of living can perhaps be better examined by income share, national labour income share vs capital income share. In all these arguments I always look at both: if worker standard of living according to some claims has been reasonably steady, then where has the massive increase in capital income come from. Michal Kalecki is one of the better at this level of analysis.
But it is complicate. Looked up the Smith vs Bentham argument:Smith claimed that high interest rates caused speculation and malinvestment. Keynes agreed. Many now are saying the very low interest rates cause bubbles and financialization. Shrug.
Michael Roberts is my technical Marxian economist. Link is to an article on productivity. Roberts is a declining profits guy, still focusing on manufacturing. I understand little of his stuff, but he and his commenters are erudite and consistent.
Wages, including benefits, have not kept up.
See cite.
Call me crazy, but employee benefits are a less expensive way to raise the overall labor pay package vs a raise in cash pay….the cost can be expensed and no employee share of Social Security to pay. Win. Win.
Wages, including benefits, have not kept up.
See cite.
Call me crazy, but employee benefits are a less expensive way to raise the overall labor pay package vs a raise in cash pay….the cost can be expensed and no employee share of Social Security to pay. Win. Win.
The two more rigorous papers include employer provided benefits in their calculations.
The two more rigorous papers include employer provided benefits in their calculations.
“There is a widespread but mistaken belief that wage stagnation has been partially caused by a shift of compensation toward benefits. Benefits have grown far less than most people realize, rising from 18.3 percent of compensation in 1979 to just 19.7 percent of compensation in 2014”
Per the EPI paper
“There is a widespread but mistaken belief that wage stagnation has been partially caused by a shift of compensation toward benefits. Benefits have grown far less than most people realize, rising from 18.3 percent of compensation in 1979 to just 19.7 percent of compensation in 2014”
Per the EPI paper
bobm,
I have bookmarked Roberts’ page. Thx.
bobm,
I have bookmarked Roberts’ page. Thx.
So, what to do? One idea is a universal basic income. Others include increasing the minimum wage, getting the fed to stop clamping down on inflation worries any time the labor market gets tight, among others (see the third paper). Whatever the solution, it is clearly not on offer from the current U.S. government
As a solution, raising the minimum wage seems to miss the mark. If you lose your job due to automation, and there is no alternative for the same reason, what do you care how much you would make if you did have a job?
So, what to do? One idea is a universal basic income. Others include increasing the minimum wage, getting the fed to stop clamping down on inflation worries any time the labor market gets tight, among others (see the third paper). Whatever the solution, it is clearly not on offer from the current U.S. government
As a solution, raising the minimum wage seems to miss the mark. If you lose your job due to automation, and there is no alternative for the same reason, what do you care how much you would make if you did have a job?
Maybe your spouse still has a minimum-wage job. Maybe demand increases because people who will actually spend their additional income get additional income, so you get another job that’s now needed to meet that additional demand.
Maybe your spouse still has a minimum-wage job. Maybe demand increases because people who will actually spend their additional income get additional income, so you get another job that’s now needed to meet that additional demand.
There is a widespread but mistaken belief that wage stagnation has been partially caused by a shift of compensation toward benefits.
I pay about twice as much for health insurance as I did last year. Same plan, exactly. BCBS.
And that’s a win, because for a while my employer tried a self-insured deal that capital-S sucked.
In that same period I’ve gone from (my) industry standard unlimited time off to 18 days PTO total, which includes both sick time, personal days, and vacation. Get the flu for a week, need some time for medical or family stuff, and you’re looking at one or two weeks vacation per year.
When I get sick I work from home on a VPN. I haven’t taken a “sick day” in probably ten years. I do take PTO for in-patient medical stuff that involves sedation. My employer thanks me for this.
I’m not at the top of the heap, but I’m in the foothills of the top of the heap. Most people would kill for my deal. The only folks who have it better are folks in the real nose-bleed upper reaches of tech, ditto for finance, and non-profits like universities that have big endowments and insured pools.
The reason more $$$$ goes to benefits is because the cost of health care is insanely out of control in this country. “Increased benefits” just means you get the same, or typically less, but pay more for it.
You do not see a net upside in your pocket at the end of the month.
Just an anecdotal data point. But aren’t they all.
There is a widespread but mistaken belief that wage stagnation has been partially caused by a shift of compensation toward benefits.
I pay about twice as much for health insurance as I did last year. Same plan, exactly. BCBS.
And that’s a win, because for a while my employer tried a self-insured deal that capital-S sucked.
In that same period I’ve gone from (my) industry standard unlimited time off to 18 days PTO total, which includes both sick time, personal days, and vacation. Get the flu for a week, need some time for medical or family stuff, and you’re looking at one or two weeks vacation per year.
When I get sick I work from home on a VPN. I haven’t taken a “sick day” in probably ten years. I do take PTO for in-patient medical stuff that involves sedation. My employer thanks me for this.
I’m not at the top of the heap, but I’m in the foothills of the top of the heap. Most people would kill for my deal. The only folks who have it better are folks in the real nose-bleed upper reaches of tech, ditto for finance, and non-profits like universities that have big endowments and insured pools.
The reason more $$$$ goes to benefits is because the cost of health care is insanely out of control in this country. “Increased benefits” just means you get the same, or typically less, but pay more for it.
You do not see a net upside in your pocket at the end of the month.
Just an anecdotal data point. But aren’t they all.
Another reason, I think, that increased productivity has not resulted in increased labor compensation is that most increased productivity has come from technology, in one form or other.
I.e., capital investment.
Capital creates the added value, so capital wants the gravy.
See also: Uber.
My own feeling about this is that we should address this at the level of ownership. Being an employee of an enterprise should confer some degree of ownership, however expressed.
That used to take the form of things like pensions, which is if nothing else a financial stake in the enterprise even after you no longer work there. Those, of course, are gone, and in the modern corporate environment where companies are started and folded and passed around like trading cards, they’d be worthless anyway. They only make sense in a context where the enterprise itself is something that is intended to endure.
But profit sharing, stock options for companies that have stock, employee-ownership, all serve the same purpose. We just don’t have the mind-set to do stuff like that.
Basically I think a lot of people are just going to be screwed, because the trend has been pretty much consistent for over a generation now, and I see no change on the horizon.
Another reason, I think, that increased productivity has not resulted in increased labor compensation is that most increased productivity has come from technology, in one form or other.
I.e., capital investment.
Capital creates the added value, so capital wants the gravy.
See also: Uber.
My own feeling about this is that we should address this at the level of ownership. Being an employee of an enterprise should confer some degree of ownership, however expressed.
That used to take the form of things like pensions, which is if nothing else a financial stake in the enterprise even after you no longer work there. Those, of course, are gone, and in the modern corporate environment where companies are started and folded and passed around like trading cards, they’d be worthless anyway. They only make sense in a context where the enterprise itself is something that is intended to endure.
But profit sharing, stock options for companies that have stock, employee-ownership, all serve the same purpose. We just don’t have the mind-set to do stuff like that.
Basically I think a lot of people are just going to be screwed, because the trend has been pretty much consistent for over a generation now, and I see no change on the horizon.
As a solution, raising the minimum wage seems to miss the mark. If you lose your job due to automation, and there is no alternative for the same reason, what do you care how much you would make if you did have a job?
Yeah, that is more of a solution to the decoupling of labor productivity from compensation, rather than being replaced by robots.
As a solution, raising the minimum wage seems to miss the mark. If you lose your job due to automation, and there is no alternative for the same reason, what do you care how much you would make if you did have a job?
Yeah, that is more of a solution to the decoupling of labor productivity from compensation, rather than being replaced by robots.
(*Could work for…)
*Maybe demand increases because people who will actually spend their additional income get additional income, so you get another job that’s now needed to meet that additional demand.
(*Could work for…)
*Maybe demand increases because people who will actually spend their additional income get additional income, so you get another job that’s now needed to meet that additional demand.
Once the robots learn to service humans sexually in addition to their day jobs bolting car bumpers on and cleaning out the gutters, the rich won’t need the rest of us any longer.
“That’s an awful lot of jobs ..”
Doing what?
Once the robots learn to service humans sexually in addition to their day jobs bolting car bumpers on and cleaning out the gutters, the rich won’t need the rest of us any longer.
“That’s an awful lot of jobs ..”
Doing what?
We’ll have self-driving cars right after we all pay to rebuild all of the infrastructure that currently doesn’t support self-driving cars all that well.
And I’m not getting how self-driving cars reduces the cost of personal transport. Are they gonna give them away?
We’ll have self-driving cars right after we all pay to rebuild all of the infrastructure that currently doesn’t support self-driving cars all that well.
And I’m not getting how self-driving cars reduces the cost of personal transport. Are they gonna give them away?
it’s likely to bring down the cost of personal transport quite significantly….
John Quiggin at Crooked Timber recently did a thread on self-driving cars. Some commenters, far better-informed than I am, expressed a lot of skepticism, especially about the time frame. Industry hype is dazzling, the reality is far more complex. As I have said before, my own car can’t even keep time correctly, and it’s not like that’s some big new technology that no one quite knows how to fine-tune yet.
And I’m not getting how self-driving cars reduces the cost of personal transport. Are they gonna give them away?
And — as usual — wrs.
We’re going to have self-driving cars eventually, in fact we’ll probably be forced to switch to them. Just not as soon as the industry-driven headlines would have us think. I’m far far less sure that we need them, or that if we had any sense and ability to plan collectively for the long term, that’s what we’d choose. But someone is going to make mountains of money off them, and more tech is going to save us, has always been going to save us, so…more likely than not, we’ll have them whether we like it or not.
it’s likely to bring down the cost of personal transport quite significantly….
John Quiggin at Crooked Timber recently did a thread on self-driving cars. Some commenters, far better-informed than I am, expressed a lot of skepticism, especially about the time frame. Industry hype is dazzling, the reality is far more complex. As I have said before, my own car can’t even keep time correctly, and it’s not like that’s some big new technology that no one quite knows how to fine-tune yet.
And I’m not getting how self-driving cars reduces the cost of personal transport. Are they gonna give them away?
And — as usual — wrs.
We’re going to have self-driving cars eventually, in fact we’ll probably be forced to switch to them. Just not as soon as the industry-driven headlines would have us think. I’m far far less sure that we need them, or that if we had any sense and ability to plan collectively for the long term, that’s what we’d choose. But someone is going to make mountains of money off them, and more tech is going to save us, has always been going to save us, so…more likely than not, we’ll have them whether we like it or not.
“That’s an awful lot of jobs ..”
Ah, place a “lost” on that. Get it now.
Am I the only one contemplating a hybrid driverless car, one that incorporates orgasmatron functions into the vehicle.
Advertising slogan: “It gets you there two ways.”
“That’s an awful lot of jobs ..”
Ah, place a “lost” on that. Get it now.
Am I the only one contemplating a hybrid driverless car, one that incorporates orgasmatron functions into the vehicle.
Advertising slogan: “It gets you there two ways.”
Self-driving cars on the cheap using smartphones: Comma.ai.
Interview with the developer: Super Hacker George Hotz: I Can Make Your Car Drive Itself for Under $1,000 (YouTube)
Introduction to and text of the interview: Super Hacker George Hotz: I Can Make Your Car Drive Itself for Under $1,000: Comma.ai aims to bring plug-and-play autonomy to the masses.
Currently, Hotz’s development is about on par with the smart autopilots that many cars already have, but doing it with a smartphone instead of the car’s onboard computers.
Self-driving cars on the cheap using smartphones: Comma.ai.
Interview with the developer: Super Hacker George Hotz: I Can Make Your Car Drive Itself for Under $1,000 (YouTube)
Introduction to and text of the interview: Super Hacker George Hotz: I Can Make Your Car Drive Itself for Under $1,000: Comma.ai aims to bring plug-and-play autonomy to the masses.
Currently, Hotz’s development is about on par with the smart autopilots that many cars already have, but doing it with a smartphone instead of the car’s onboard computers.
Hotz’s idea is to gather data on how human drivers handle each bit of road and then have his driving system mimic that, with minimal external sensors.
what happens when the data isn’t available?
Hotz’s idea is to gather data on how human drivers handle each bit of road and then have his driving system mimic that, with minimal external sensors.
what happens when the data isn’t available?
The guy in the lane to your left is texting. His car drifts over into your lane.
To your right are bunch of people standing on the sidewalk.
Go, computer! Do the right thing.
Somebody isn’t paying attention and they step into the street in front of you.
To your right is a row of parked cars.
To your left is a line of moving cars.
Go, computer! Do the right thing.
When cars drive themselves I’m gonna start walking.
The guy in the lane to your left is texting. His car drifts over into your lane.
To your right are bunch of people standing on the sidewalk.
Go, computer! Do the right thing.
Somebody isn’t paying attention and they step into the street in front of you.
To your right is a row of parked cars.
To your left is a line of moving cars.
Go, computer! Do the right thing.
When cars drive themselves I’m gonna start walking.
Just started Wolfgang Streeck’s How Will Capitalism End?, this from the introduction discussing a Randall Collins essay. Collins’ Sociology of Philosophies is an application of his Interactive Ritual Chains and recommended, for those who have the time and inclination to read 1200 pages on the history Indian, Chinese, and Islamic philosophy, besides the usual. Anyhoo…
“What exactly does this crisis consist of? While labour has gradually been replaced by technology for the past two hundred years, with the rise of information technology and, in the very near future, artificial intelligence, that process is currently reaching its apogee, in at least two respects: first, it has vastly accelerated, and second, having in the second half of the twentieth century destroyed the manual working class, it is now attacking and about to destroy the middle class as well – in other words, the new petty bourgeoisie that is the very carrier of the neocapitalist and neoliberal lifestyle of ‘hard work and hard play’, of careerism-cum-consumerism, which, as will be discussed infra, may indeed be considered the indispensable cultural foundation of contemporary capitalism’s society. What Collins sees coming is a rapid appropriation of programming, managerial, clerical, administrative, and educational work by machinery intelligent enough even to design and create new, more advanced machinery. Electronicization will do to the middle class what mechanization has done to the working class, and it will do it much faster. The result will be unemployment in the order of 50 to 70 per cent by the middle of the century, hitting those who had hoped, by way of expensive education and disciplined job performance (in return for stagnant or declining wages), to escape the threat of redundancy attendant on the working classes. The benefits, meanwhile, will go to ‘a tiny capitalist class of robot owners’ who will become immeasurably rich. The drawback for them is, however, that they will increasingly find that their product ‘cannot be sold because too few persons have enough income to buy it. Extrapolating this underlying tendency’, Collins writes, ‘Marx and Engels predicted the downfall of capitalism and its replacement with socialism’ (p. 39), and this is what Collins also predicts.”
I remain slightly agnostic on the Labor Theory of Value but the Marxian prediction of our robot future based on the LTV says that although the robots can slap out commodities and stuff by the container load, since there will be ever decreasing human labor adding value to production, there will not be enough profits or surplus to fund or finance your beoootiful Basic Income or Job Guarantee or Universal Health Care. In order for Koch or Gates or Trump or Obama to stay wealthy their intangible assets need to be continually renewed by capitalist growth. Etc Etc.
Making stuff and making money are two different processes.
1st productivity diverges from wages, the productivity cannot sustain profits, then it gets burned down.
Just started Wolfgang Streeck’s How Will Capitalism End?, this from the introduction discussing a Randall Collins essay. Collins’ Sociology of Philosophies is an application of his Interactive Ritual Chains and recommended, for those who have the time and inclination to read 1200 pages on the history Indian, Chinese, and Islamic philosophy, besides the usual. Anyhoo…
“What exactly does this crisis consist of? While labour has gradually been replaced by technology for the past two hundred years, with the rise of information technology and, in the very near future, artificial intelligence, that process is currently reaching its apogee, in at least two respects: first, it has vastly accelerated, and second, having in the second half of the twentieth century destroyed the manual working class, it is now attacking and about to destroy the middle class as well – in other words, the new petty bourgeoisie that is the very carrier of the neocapitalist and neoliberal lifestyle of ‘hard work and hard play’, of careerism-cum-consumerism, which, as will be discussed infra, may indeed be considered the indispensable cultural foundation of contemporary capitalism’s society. What Collins sees coming is a rapid appropriation of programming, managerial, clerical, administrative, and educational work by machinery intelligent enough even to design and create new, more advanced machinery. Electronicization will do to the middle class what mechanization has done to the working class, and it will do it much faster. The result will be unemployment in the order of 50 to 70 per cent by the middle of the century, hitting those who had hoped, by way of expensive education and disciplined job performance (in return for stagnant or declining wages), to escape the threat of redundancy attendant on the working classes. The benefits, meanwhile, will go to ‘a tiny capitalist class of robot owners’ who will become immeasurably rich. The drawback for them is, however, that they will increasingly find that their product ‘cannot be sold because too few persons have enough income to buy it. Extrapolating this underlying tendency’, Collins writes, ‘Marx and Engels predicted the downfall of capitalism and its replacement with socialism’ (p. 39), and this is what Collins also predicts.”
I remain slightly agnostic on the Labor Theory of Value but the Marxian prediction of our robot future based on the LTV says that although the robots can slap out commodities and stuff by the container load, since there will be ever decreasing human labor adding value to production, there will not be enough profits or surplus to fund or finance your beoootiful Basic Income or Job Guarantee or Universal Health Care. In order for Koch or Gates or Trump or Obama to stay wealthy their intangible assets need to be continually renewed by capitalist growth. Etc Etc.
Making stuff and making money are two different processes.
1st productivity diverges from wages, the productivity cannot sustain profits, then it gets burned down.
and I haven’t even gotten into stuff like black ice, or wet leaves on the road, or sandy shoulders.
Computers, and all forms of rationalized systems, excel when conditions have been optimized for their operation.
and I haven’t even gotten into stuff like black ice, or wet leaves on the road, or sandy shoulders.
Computers, and all forms of rationalized systems, excel when conditions have been optimized for their operation.
It’s 2018, so where are the self-driving cars?: It’s time for a reality check
It’s 2018, so where are the self-driving cars?: It’s time for a reality check
Is driving a car less, or more, difficult than judging a case in appellate court?
I should think strict constructionists would heartily approve of robot judges, if it could be done. And since reaction time is much less of a constraint on the bench than on the road, I say it could be done.
Passing lightly over fantasies of R2D2 arguing against C3PO in a case before judge HAL, I will repeat something I’ve been saying all millenium:
Robots make lousy customers. The Economy needs consumers just as much as it needs producers in order to be an Economy. The ultimate success of AI will be a “post-economy” world. Whether that world will be heaven or hell depends on whether humans (as sentient beings, not “economic actors”) are smarter than we have reason to hope at present.
–TP
Is driving a car less, or more, difficult than judging a case in appellate court?
I should think strict constructionists would heartily approve of robot judges, if it could be done. And since reaction time is much less of a constraint on the bench than on the road, I say it could be done.
Passing lightly over fantasies of R2D2 arguing against C3PO in a case before judge HAL, I will repeat something I’ve been saying all millenium:
Robots make lousy customers. The Economy needs consumers just as much as it needs producers in order to be an Economy. The ultimate success of AI will be a “post-economy” world. Whether that world will be heaven or hell depends on whether humans (as sentient beings, not “economic actors”) are smarter than we have reason to hope at present.
–TP
65mph, there’s an object 50m ahead on the road. shape indeterminate. 5m x .5m, roughly.
it’s moving! erratically!
what should the car do?
evasive maneuvers! STOP! the road is wet! skidding! object is moving into our path! panic!
it’s actually a paper bag, blowing in the wind. any human would’ve driven right over it.
65mph, there’s an object 50m ahead on the road. shape indeterminate. 5m x .5m, roughly.
it’s moving! erratically!
what should the car do?
evasive maneuvers! STOP! the road is wet! skidding! object is moving into our path! panic!
it’s actually a paper bag, blowing in the wind. any human would’ve driven right over it.
(.5m x .5m . f.u. overloaded dot operator.)
(.5m x .5m . f.u. overloaded dot operator.)
“I should think strict constructionists would heartily approve of robot judges.”
Even though they believe the Constitution to be an unerring algorithm with no variables, where does it say “robot judges” in the Constitution?
“I should think strict constructionists would heartily approve of robot judges.”
Even though they believe the Constitution to be an unerring algorithm with no variables, where does it say “robot judges” in the Constitution?
Robots make lousy customers. The Economy needs consumers just as much as it needs producers in order to be an Economy.
Funny. A few months back some family members out west (all good capitalists – some owning their own businesses) were complaining on facebook about the new, higher minimum wage in Arizona (or Phoenix?). Not sure if it was the whole state, but whatever. Anyway, they all said it was going cause business owners to fire their employees (a la fully automated fast-food restaurants and such) and replace them with robots.
I mentioned that, once there weren’t enough people with jobs to buy anything, they would have to create robot customers. But the good part was that they could be programmed to optimize the velocity of money to create maximum economic growth.
I was attempting slyly to introduce the idea that people at the bottom will spend their additional income far more readily than the people already making a good living, but I’m sure I was the only one who knew what I was hinting at.
Robots make lousy customers. The Economy needs consumers just as much as it needs producers in order to be an Economy.
Funny. A few months back some family members out west (all good capitalists – some owning their own businesses) were complaining on facebook about the new, higher minimum wage in Arizona (or Phoenix?). Not sure if it was the whole state, but whatever. Anyway, they all said it was going cause business owners to fire their employees (a la fully automated fast-food restaurants and such) and replace them with robots.
I mentioned that, once there weren’t enough people with jobs to buy anything, they would have to create robot customers. But the good part was that they could be programmed to optimize the velocity of money to create maximum economic growth.
I was attempting slyly to introduce the idea that people at the bottom will spend their additional income far more readily than the people already making a good living, but I’m sure I was the only one who knew what I was hinting at.
Go, computer! Do the right thing.
It might be very difficult to take a fully autonomous car that can see 360° and whose attention never waivers by surprise. And, if taken by surprise, its reflexes would be magnitudes faster than any human’s. Therefore, the car haveing to make decisions about who to save and who to harm might be very rare.
In those rare cases, the best approach might be that the safety of the car’s occupant(s) comes first and the courts sort out the consequences.
Go, computer! Do the right thing.
It might be very difficult to take a fully autonomous car that can see 360° and whose attention never waivers by surprise. And, if taken by surprise, its reflexes would be magnitudes faster than any human’s. Therefore, the car haveing to make decisions about who to save and who to harm might be very rare.
In those rare cases, the best approach might be that the safety of the car’s occupant(s) comes first and the courts sort out the consequences.
And, if taken by surprise, its reflexes would be magnitudes faster than any human’s.
at 65mph, reflexes take a back seat to planning because twitching is the enemy of momentum.
And, if taken by surprise, its reflexes would be magnitudes faster than any human’s.
at 65mph, reflexes take a back seat to planning because twitching is the enemy of momentum.
“Since self-driving cars will be safer than human-driven vehicles, the right thing to do is to encourage people to trust them so that their adoption and deployment will proceed as quickly as reasonably possible. Consequently, programming cars to preserve the lives of their passengers is the ethical thing to do.”
Your Self-Driving Car: Minimize Casualties or Save You?: What algorithms will actually save the most lives in the long run?
“Since self-driving cars will be safer than human-driven vehicles, the right thing to do is to encourage people to trust them so that their adoption and deployment will proceed as quickly as reasonably possible. Consequently, programming cars to preserve the lives of their passengers is the ethical thing to do.”
Your Self-Driving Car: Minimize Casualties or Save You?: What algorithms will actually save the most lives in the long run?
I think self-driving cars will work best if all, or at least the vast majority, of the cars on the road are self-driving. You don’t have to worry about the guy next to you texting and drifting into your lane if he’s in a self-driving car. Drifting into another lane, or at least drifting toward another car, is the sort of thing self-driving cars won’t do.
And I imagine they’ll go with the flow of traffic, unlike some humans, who will do 50 when everyone else is going between 65 and 85, or who will try to do 100, weaving in between the other cars, under those same conditions.
They should merge in a more-coordinated fashion, or so I would hope. They shouldn’t experience road rage, either. Nor should they try to speed through intersections before the light turns red.
I’m not blindly accepting of self-driving cars in the near term, but I can see a future where they’ll be far better than humans, particularly if they don’t have to mix with human drivers.
I think self-driving cars will work best if all, or at least the vast majority, of the cars on the road are self-driving. You don’t have to worry about the guy next to you texting and drifting into your lane if he’s in a self-driving car. Drifting into another lane, or at least drifting toward another car, is the sort of thing self-driving cars won’t do.
And I imagine they’ll go with the flow of traffic, unlike some humans, who will do 50 when everyone else is going between 65 and 85, or who will try to do 100, weaving in between the other cars, under those same conditions.
They should merge in a more-coordinated fashion, or so I would hope. They shouldn’t experience road rage, either. Nor should they try to speed through intersections before the light turns red.
I’m not blindly accepting of self-driving cars in the near term, but I can see a future where they’ll be far better than humans, particularly if they don’t have to mix with human drivers.
They should merge in a more-coordinated fashion, or so I would hope. They shouldn’t experience road rage, either. Nor should they try to speed through intersections before the light turns red.
oh but i think they will.
some people aren’t going to be satisfied with a car that patiently and politely navigates the smoothly flowing stream of traffic – especially if it’s going to make them late. they’re going to want a car that will take advantage of gaps. they’ll want a car that will take advantage of other cars’ well-behaved passivity, and drive aggressively. they’ll want a car that will take chances because it will keep them from feeling like an average schmuck. they’ll want to ride in exciting, fast, dominating cars.
and so car makers will make cars that will exploit the fact that the majority of other cars being well-behaved and defensive.
They should merge in a more-coordinated fashion, or so I would hope. They shouldn’t experience road rage, either. Nor should they try to speed through intersections before the light turns red.
oh but i think they will.
some people aren’t going to be satisfied with a car that patiently and politely navigates the smoothly flowing stream of traffic – especially if it’s going to make them late. they’re going to want a car that will take advantage of gaps. they’ll want a car that will take advantage of other cars’ well-behaved passivity, and drive aggressively. they’ll want a car that will take chances because it will keep them from feeling like an average schmuck. they’ll want to ride in exciting, fast, dominating cars.
and so car makers will make cars that will exploit the fact that the majority of other cars being well-behaved and defensive.
“When we first deployed a robot in a store, the associates were the people that understood it first. This boring, repetitive task of scanning the shelves—we have yet to meet someone who has liked to do that. Employees instantly become the advocates for the robot.”
Walmart’s new robots are loved by staff—and ignored by customers: Bossa Nova is creating robotic coworkers for the retail world.
“When we first deployed a robot in a store, the associates were the people that understood it first. This boring, repetitive task of scanning the shelves—we have yet to meet someone who has liked to do that. Employees instantly become the advocates for the robot.”
Walmart’s new robots are loved by staff—and ignored by customers: Bossa Nova is creating robotic coworkers for the retail world.
and so car makers will make cars that will exploit the fact that the majority of other cars being well-behaved and defensive.
So rich guys in beemers will still “drive” like dicks?
and so car makers will make cars that will exploit the fact that the majority of other cars being well-behaved and defensive.
So rich guys in beemers will still “drive” like dicks?
Pay-productivity gap nuance:
What’s Behind the Growing Pay-Productivity Gap?: Pt 1, Hypotheses
What’s Behind the Growing Pay-Productivity Gap?: Pt 2, Measurement Problems
Pay-productivity gap nuance:
What’s Behind the Growing Pay-Productivity Gap?: Pt 1, Hypotheses
What’s Behind the Growing Pay-Productivity Gap?: Pt 2, Measurement Problems
If autonomous cars communicated with each other, a car whose occupant is in a hurry might negotiate micro-payments to other cars for them to defer to it.
If autonomous cars communicated with each other, a car whose occupant is in a hurry might negotiate micro-payments to other cars for them to defer to it.
If cars were drive cooperatively, whether by humans or computers, everyone would get where they were going faster. Being in a hurry and taking advantage of the lack of aggression in other drivers leads to a fallacy of composition – not that I can claim not to do it regularly.
Hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue, right?
If cars were drive cooperatively, whether by humans or computers, everyone would get where they were going faster. Being in a hurry and taking advantage of the lack of aggression in other drivers leads to a fallacy of composition – not that I can claim not to do it regularly.
Hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue, right?
A guy could make a living holding up traffic.
Maybe pedestrians could spend their day negotiating the payout of hundreds of micro-payments just to cross the street.
I, for one, will miss the regional differences in driving habits and behavior.
The New York minute will go the way of the dodo.
No more totally unpredictable demolition derby in
Boston, with the cutting in at 38 mph sans signals.
I doubt Manila drivers are going to cotton to uniform traffic patterns.
And the Italians. Well, the passengers in the autonomous cars will have BOTH hands free for insulting hand signals.
A guy could make a living holding up traffic.
Maybe pedestrians could spend their day negotiating the payout of hundreds of micro-payments just to cross the street.
I, for one, will miss the regional differences in driving habits and behavior.
The New York minute will go the way of the dodo.
No more totally unpredictable demolition derby in
Boston, with the cutting in at 38 mph sans signals.
I doubt Manila drivers are going to cotton to uniform traffic patterns.
And the Italians. Well, the passengers in the autonomous cars will have BOTH hands free for insulting hand signals.
I wonder if it will be programmed for nickel rides?
“The patent, first spotted by Motor1, describes an autonomous police vehicle that would be able to detect infractions performed by another vehicle, either on its own or in conjunction with surveillance cameras and/or road-side sensors.
The AI-powered police car could then remotely issue citations or pursue the vehicle. Or (and this is where it gets really creepy), “the method may further involve the processor remotely executing one or more actions with respect to the first vehicle,” according to the patent.”
Ford files a patent for an autonomous police car
I wonder if it will be programmed for nickel rides?
“The patent, first spotted by Motor1, describes an autonomous police vehicle that would be able to detect infractions performed by another vehicle, either on its own or in conjunction with surveillance cameras and/or road-side sensors.
The AI-powered police car could then remotely issue citations or pursue the vehicle. Or (and this is where it gets really creepy), “the method may further involve the processor remotely executing one or more actions with respect to the first vehicle,” according to the patent.”
Ford files a patent for an autonomous police car
Therefore, the car haveing to make decisions about who to save and who to harm might be very rare.
You go first, and tell us all how it went.
I think self-driving cars will work best if all, or at least the vast majority, of the cars on the road are self-driving.
In the meantime, Katy bar the door.
Leaving out the “guy in the left lane texting” thing, there are pedestrians, animals, bad road conditions, bad weather, and other kinds of vehicles like bicycles and motorcycles. There are flooded roads, tree limbs down in the road, and other occasional unplanned obstructions. In my neighborhood, there are frequent flocks of belligerent turkeys who will not yield to anyone for any reason.
We’ll have to isolate self-driving vehicular traffic from the rest of the world to make it actually safe. We may have to condition the roadways and abutting surfaces and structures so that the ingenious robot driver can easily recognize their presence at speed.
Basically, this is going to turn into a society-wide re-engineering of the public transportation infrastructure.
Gizmos are fun, especially robotic ones, but I don’t see this as a good idea. All in all, I’d rather have a bus.
Therefore, the car haveing to make decisions about who to save and who to harm might be very rare.
You go first, and tell us all how it went.
I think self-driving cars will work best if all, or at least the vast majority, of the cars on the road are self-driving.
In the meantime, Katy bar the door.
Leaving out the “guy in the left lane texting” thing, there are pedestrians, animals, bad road conditions, bad weather, and other kinds of vehicles like bicycles and motorcycles. There are flooded roads, tree limbs down in the road, and other occasional unplanned obstructions. In my neighborhood, there are frequent flocks of belligerent turkeys who will not yield to anyone for any reason.
We’ll have to isolate self-driving vehicular traffic from the rest of the world to make it actually safe. We may have to condition the roadways and abutting surfaces and structures so that the ingenious robot driver can easily recognize their presence at speed.
Basically, this is going to turn into a society-wide re-engineering of the public transportation infrastructure.
Gizmos are fun, especially robotic ones, but I don’t see this as a good idea. All in all, I’d rather have a bus.
If the cars communicate, they open themselves to malignant influences (=hacking). The 9/11 guys will look like pikers once some group (or even single person) does the first one million car crash. Or, less violent, what will happen when on election day all cars registered by members of one party will not start (after all polling places have been put out of walking reach)?
If the cars communicate, they open themselves to malignant influences (=hacking). The 9/11 guys will look like pikers once some group (or even single person) does the first one million car crash. Or, less violent, what will happen when on election day all cars registered by members of one party will not start (after all polling places have been put out of walking reach)?
Ford files a patent for an autonomous police car
My wife and I were in Italy last fall. You don’t see highway patrol cars in Italy. There are cameras on the roads, if you speed they take your picture and mail you a ticket.
Works great. Ask me how I know.
Ford files a patent for an autonomous police car
My wife and I were in Italy last fall. You don’t see highway patrol cars in Italy. There are cameras on the roads, if you speed they take your picture and mail you a ticket.
Works great. Ask me how I know.
Leaving out the “guy in the left lane texting” thing, there are pedestrians, animals, bad road conditions, bad weather, and other kinds of vehicles like bicycles and motorcycles. There are flooded roads, tree limbs down in the road, and other occasional unplanned obstructions…
No doubt, and stuff will go wrong, but the systems will learn from that – and the experience of one autonomous vehicle is pooled with all the rest.
It’s an interative process –
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/08/inside-waymos-secret-testing-and-simulation-facilities/537648/
– cars that were doing 2mph on Alphabet’s test facility roads drove 30k miles in California last November without a single ‘disengagement’, and will take part in a pilot commercial taxi service next year in Phoenix:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/01/waymo-maintains-huge-lead-in-self-driving-car-race/552059/
The autonomous driving system might be a much, much slower learner than a person – but it’s driving orders of magnitude more miles, and that system will see many many more of those odd driving situations than any single person will experience in a lifetime.
I suspect we won’t see much dramatic for a couple of years, and the pilot in Phoenix will probably have limitations and problems that will encourage the
skeptics. A couple more years and it will be conventional wisdom that these things are going to take over.
Leaving out the “guy in the left lane texting” thing, there are pedestrians, animals, bad road conditions, bad weather, and other kinds of vehicles like bicycles and motorcycles. There are flooded roads, tree limbs down in the road, and other occasional unplanned obstructions…
No doubt, and stuff will go wrong, but the systems will learn from that – and the experience of one autonomous vehicle is pooled with all the rest.
It’s an interative process –
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/08/inside-waymos-secret-testing-and-simulation-facilities/537648/
– cars that were doing 2mph on Alphabet’s test facility roads drove 30k miles in California last November without a single ‘disengagement’, and will take part in a pilot commercial taxi service next year in Phoenix:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/01/waymo-maintains-huge-lead-in-self-driving-car-race/552059/
The autonomous driving system might be a much, much slower learner than a person – but it’s driving orders of magnitude more miles, and that system will see many many more of those odd driving situations than any single person will experience in a lifetime.
I suspect we won’t see much dramatic for a couple of years, and the pilot in Phoenix will probably have limitations and problems that will encourage the
skeptics. A couple more years and it will be conventional wisdom that these things are going to take over.
And I’m not getting how self-driving cars reduces the cost of personal transport. Are they gonna give them away?…
Assuming their ubiquity, it would mean the average household would no longer need to own a car – think a far more efficient and cheaper Uber.
The other part of the cost reduction will be the move to electric vehicles, which need far less servicing than ICE vehicles and will have a vehicle life of around 250k miles.
The economics for autonomous electrical goods vehicles are probably even more compelling for their operators.
(Not going to happen overnight, of course.)
And I’m not getting how self-driving cars reduces the cost of personal transport. Are they gonna give them away?…
Assuming their ubiquity, it would mean the average household would no longer need to own a car – think a far more efficient and cheaper Uber.
The other part of the cost reduction will be the move to electric vehicles, which need far less servicing than ICE vehicles and will have a vehicle life of around 250k miles.
The economics for autonomous electrical goods vehicles are probably even more compelling for their operators.
(Not going to happen overnight, of course.)
and the experience of one autonomous vehicle is pooled with all the rest.
Much more efficient than training one hormone infused, alcohol saturated biological unit at a time.
and the experience of one autonomous vehicle is pooled with all the rest.
Much more efficient than training one hormone infused, alcohol saturated biological unit at a time.
russell: All in all, I’d rather have a bus.
There are people who argue that private cars, autonomous or not, will soon become unusable. Like proliferating bacteria choking on their own excrement, they will congest any plausible urban road network into immobility.
Yes, I know the old line about a restaurant getting so crowded that nobody goes there any more.
And I know that on-board AI, probably combined with an infrastructure of “intelligent” traffic management systems able to communicate with and even command the “autonomous” vehicles, could delay the terminal congestion for a decade or so.
But the worldwide trend toward urbanization seems relentless, so it’s a race between AI and demography.
–TP
russell: All in all, I’d rather have a bus.
There are people who argue that private cars, autonomous or not, will soon become unusable. Like proliferating bacteria choking on their own excrement, they will congest any plausible urban road network into immobility.
Yes, I know the old line about a restaurant getting so crowded that nobody goes there any more.
And I know that on-board AI, probably combined with an infrastructure of “intelligent” traffic management systems able to communicate with and even command the “autonomous” vehicles, could delay the terminal congestion for a decade or so.
But the worldwide trend toward urbanization seems relentless, so it’s a race between AI and demography.
–TP
Regarding JanieM’ car clock comment, crappy car electrical/electronic equipment standards are an issue that is being urgently addressed, as even without autonomous vehicles it’s a huge safety issue:
https://semiengineering.com/rethinking-car-design/
Regarding JanieM’ car clock comment, crappy car electrical/electronic equipment standards are an issue that is being urgently addressed, as even without autonomous vehicles it’s a huge safety issue:
https://semiengineering.com/rethinking-car-design/
Basically, this is going to turn into a society-wide re-engineering of the public transportation infrastructure.
More like a society wide re-engineering.
The US, despite leading technologically, is probably one of the toughest countries for autonomous vehicles to take over. It will probably happen a lot sooner somewhere like Singapore.
Some will welcome it. Most of my contemporaries learned to drive in their teens; a much lower proportion of my kids contemporaries drive at all.
Basically, this is going to turn into a society-wide re-engineering of the public transportation infrastructure.
More like a society wide re-engineering.
The US, despite leading technologically, is probably one of the toughest countries for autonomous vehicles to take over. It will probably happen a lot sooner somewhere like Singapore.
Some will welcome it. Most of my contemporaries learned to drive in their teens; a much lower proportion of my kids contemporaries drive at all.
and the experience of one autonomous vehicle is pooled with all the rest
So all these companies, madly chasing glory and profit, are going to share their data?
*****
Assuming their ubiquity, it would mean the average household would no longer need to own a car – think a far more efficient and cheaper Uber.
Two things being tacitly mushed together here: driverless cars, and the question of who will own them.
If people don’t have private cars anymore, what happens when everyone still wants to get to work at the same time, but not quite, so having four passengers in the car isn’t any more palatable to the average commuter than it is now? There will still need to be a fleet of cars sufficient for peak times, with most of them sitting idle for most of the day.
*****
From Nigel’s first link:
So, at the moment, not Phoenix but a “fully modeled” version of Phoenix.
All aside from what “fully modeled” might mean, it’s no accident that this stuff isn’t happening in New England. I believe it was russell who mentioned black ice…….
*****
From Nigel’s comment: cars that were doing 2mph on Alphabet’s test facility roads drove 30k miles in California last November without a single ‘disengagement’, and will take part in a pilot commercial taxi service next year in Phoenix:
From a commenter at Crooked Timber:
From such an article, dated 11/7/17:
(my emphasis)
and the experience of one autonomous vehicle is pooled with all the rest
So all these companies, madly chasing glory and profit, are going to share their data?
*****
Assuming their ubiquity, it would mean the average household would no longer need to own a car – think a far more efficient and cheaper Uber.
Two things being tacitly mushed together here: driverless cars, and the question of who will own them.
If people don’t have private cars anymore, what happens when everyone still wants to get to work at the same time, but not quite, so having four passengers in the car isn’t any more palatable to the average commuter than it is now? There will still need to be a fleet of cars sufficient for peak times, with most of them sitting idle for most of the day.
*****
From Nigel’s first link:
So, at the moment, not Phoenix but a “fully modeled” version of Phoenix.
All aside from what “fully modeled” might mean, it’s no accident that this stuff isn’t happening in New England. I believe it was russell who mentioned black ice…….
*****
From Nigel’s comment: cars that were doing 2mph on Alphabet’s test facility roads drove 30k miles in California last November without a single ‘disengagement’, and will take part in a pilot commercial taxi service next year in Phoenix:
From a commenter at Crooked Timber:
From such an article, dated 11/7/17:
(my emphasis)
So where is my George Jetson flying car? You mean to tell me the time has not yet come?
So where is my George Jetson flying car? You mean to tell me the time has not yet come?
I love this part; I didn’t even catch it at first:
At any time, there are now 25,000 virtual self-driving cars making their way through fully modeled versions of Austin, Mountain View, and Phoenix, as well as test-track scenarios.
*Virtual* self-driving cars…..in fully modeled cities……… Mixed in with human drivers? Dogs running into the road? Trucks pulling out to pass without any warning? Cyclists…doing what cyclists do….
I love this part; I didn’t even catch it at first:
At any time, there are now 25,000 virtual self-driving cars making their way through fully modeled versions of Austin, Mountain View, and Phoenix, as well as test-track scenarios.
*Virtual* self-driving cars…..in fully modeled cities……… Mixed in with human drivers? Dogs running into the road? Trucks pulling out to pass without any warning? Cyclists…doing what cyclists do….
Futurist – (a.)one whose concept of the future is unbridled by any social, economic, or physical constraint; (b.) a profligate pollyana; (c.) delusional techno-optimist; (d.) religious fanatic.
Futurist – (a.)one whose concept of the future is unbridled by any social, economic, or physical constraint; (b.) a profligate pollyana; (c.) delusional techno-optimist; (d.) religious fanatic.
I have a lot of faith in the possibilities of self-driving cars, but not our current ability to shepherd our society into the future, even though it seems imminent. I suggest we start studying this technology. We are way too likely to be headed here.
I have a lot of faith in the possibilities of self-driving cars, but not our current ability to shepherd our society into the future, even though it seems imminent. I suggest we start studying this technology. We are way too likely to be headed here.
I’ve read that virtual driving allows the researchers to create situations that have a low probability of occurring on real streets. And perhaps dangerous if staged.
I’ve read that virtual driving allows the researchers to create situations that have a low probability of occurring on real streets. And perhaps dangerous if staged.
I think you’re missing the point of the first article, JanieM.
Simulation is one thing; real world tests another. The results from each feed back to the other.
Simulations aren’t prefect, but they are a far quicker and cheaper way of testing changes to the system. So,e,of,which find their way back to the real world tests.
None of the objections you raise seem fundamental to me.
Black ice is just another engineering problem, once solved, solved (and most drivers in the U.K. these days have a problem with half an inch of slush); the Phoenix thing is just what I said – a pilot program – and the presence of drivers possibly regulatory.
In any event, we can see who is right in three or four years.
I think you’re missing the point of the first article, JanieM.
Simulation is one thing; real world tests another. The results from each feed back to the other.
Simulations aren’t prefect, but they are a far quicker and cheaper way of testing changes to the system. So,e,of,which find their way back to the real world tests.
None of the objections you raise seem fundamental to me.
Black ice is just another engineering problem, once solved, solved (and most drivers in the U.K. these days have a problem with half an inch of slush); the Phoenix thing is just what I said – a pilot program – and the presence of drivers possibly regulatory.
In any event, we can see who is right in three or four years.
If people don’t have private cars anymore, what happens when everyone still wants to get to work at the same time, but not quite, so having four passengers in the car isn’t any more palatable to the average commuter than it is now?
Peak pricing, I guess, which would at least mitigate the issue.
Clearly the biggest problem will be where there are the longest commutes, but it ought to at least halve the number of vehicles needed.
Thinking of my home town, the morning commute is between 15 and 30 minutes depending on congestion. There is similar commuter traffic in the opposite direction, and the morning and evening commute periods last a couple of hours. A wholly autonomous vehicle system could probably function with a quarter the number of vehicles.
If people don’t have private cars anymore, what happens when everyone still wants to get to work at the same time, but not quite, so having four passengers in the car isn’t any more palatable to the average commuter than it is now?
Peak pricing, I guess, which would at least mitigate the issue.
Clearly the biggest problem will be where there are the longest commutes, but it ought to at least halve the number of vehicles needed.
Thinking of my home town, the morning commute is between 15 and 30 minutes depending on congestion. There is similar commuter traffic in the opposite direction, and the morning and evening commute periods last a couple of hours. A wholly autonomous vehicle system could probably function with a quarter the number of vehicles.
So airplanes have pilots, but there’s a lot of self-flying already, and has been for decades.
The reason I’m for self-driving cars is to give agency to the car companies for things like happened in that New Yorker article (did I discover it here? Was it you, Nigel? Sorry to forget).
I’ve had some non-human-injury accidents that were my fault, and I dread the idea that someone would ever be hurt by the possibility that I zoned out or couldn’t see for a second or two.
So airplanes have pilots, but there’s a lot of self-flying already, and has been for decades.
The reason I’m for self-driving cars is to give agency to the car companies for things like happened in that New Yorker article (did I discover it here? Was it you, Nigel? Sorry to forget).
I’ve had some non-human-injury accidents that were my fault, and I dread the idea that someone would ever be hurt by the possibility that I zoned out or couldn’t see for a second or two.
Peak pricing, I guess, which would at least mitigate the issue.
Could work similar to the Uber model. Instead of one company owning enough vehicles to cover peak demand, it could contract with small companies and individuals who own one or more vehicles that they could clean and maintain during off-peak times.
Peak pricing would still be needed to reduce congestion and the amount of idle stock during off-peak times.
Peak pricing, I guess, which would at least mitigate the issue.
Could work similar to the Uber model. Instead of one company owning enough vehicles to cover peak demand, it could contract with small companies and individuals who own one or more vehicles that they could clean and maintain during off-peak times.
Peak pricing would still be needed to reduce congestion and the amount of idle stock during off-peak times.
There have been tests where airliners have taken off, flown across the country and landed without anyone touching the controls. Autonomous aircraft would be closer to reality if US air traffic control is ever brought into the 21st century.
There have been tests where airliners have taken off, flown across the country and landed without anyone touching the controls. Autonomous aircraft would be closer to reality if US air traffic control is ever brought into the 21st century.
Peak pricing would still be needed to reduce congestion and the amount of idle stock during off-peak times.
Well, that’s a bit contradictory. Peak pricing would encourage more cars to enter the fray. What would be needed is for the car owners to have to pay peak priced road fees.
Peak pricing would still be needed to reduce congestion and the amount of idle stock during off-peak times.
Well, that’s a bit contradictory. Peak pricing would encourage more cars to enter the fray. What would be needed is for the car owners to have to pay peak priced road fees.
So rich guys in beemers will still “drive” like dicks?
Not at all. They will pay big bucks for an app which will both operate their car like a dick is driving AND, more important, let them mess with the computers of the cars around them, so as to show the little people who is really important.
So rich guys in beemers will still “drive” like dicks?
Not at all. They will pay big bucks for an app which will both operate their car like a dick is driving AND, more important, let them mess with the computers of the cars around them, so as to show the little people who is really important.
From Autonomous Vehicle Implementation Predictions, dated 1/26/18, by the Victoria Transport Policy Institute, a Canadian think tank (disclaimer, I haven’t read the whole report yet, it’s long):
From Autonomous Vehicle Implementation Predictions, dated 1/26/18, by the Victoria Transport Policy Institute, a Canadian think tank (disclaimer, I haven’t read the whole report yet, it’s long):
some benefits may require prohibiting human-driven vehicles on certain roadways
As is my wont, uninformed speculation on bigger issues. I can see a time when Americans, with their toxic mix of ‘Because freedom!’ and selective blindness at the impact of decisions, are going to reject the things that are required to make something like autonomous driving a reality.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/01/04/national/traffic-deaths-fall-4000-japan-first-time-67-years/#.WnPFjdKLSUk
In 2016, the number of people who died in traffic accidents dropped by 213, or 5.2 percent, from a year earlier to 3,904.
[…]
An agency official attributed the decline to […] improved vehicle performance, like automatic brakes; […]
I realize that there are lies, damn lies and statistics, but Japan has roughly half the population of the US, but the number of traffic deaths is 1/8th of the US. There are obviously a lot of factors (decent public transport, strong incentive to buy a new car at least every 5-6 years because of the shaken regime, a higher barrier to getting a license and probably other stuff I’m not thinking of)
I’m thinking about this now cause I’ve been in a discussion with a couple of people about medical testing results here in Japan. In Japan, large scale employesr aremandated to have health checks done on their employees once a year. There is a whole infrastructure (mobile vans, nurses, doctors) who come to large employers to give these health checks.
The people I’m talking to are adamant that their employers had absolutely no right to know their medical condition and have engaged in a long battle with them to not do the health checks. The compromise (which is built into the system) is that the person would go to a private office that specializes in these health checks, get the medical info and keep it on file at their home for 5 years, so if a medical issue came up, they would have some baselines.
Perhaps it is my recent medical issues that have me thinking like this, but I am to the point where I don’t give a f**k who knows about my medical condition. I guess this is an old person’s thing. And I have some colleagues who had serious conditions caught early, so are still working. So I’m wondering about people who refuse. I can see their point, but I think it has to bow down to the upcoming realities.
Now, I can see that some US companies, if they are paying for insurance, would be happy to strike off someone who is going to cost them a lot. I could see them negotiating with the insurance company to cut loose high risk employers in order to get a better package. Maybe I’m too trusting of Japanese employers. But to get the kind of savings that makes a government paid medical insurance system possible, you have to get a lot more data and process it automatically. I see the same thing with autonomous cars, in that the countries that will reap the benefits are going to be the ones that don’t act like jerks about change. Which is going to leave out the US…
some benefits may require prohibiting human-driven vehicles on certain roadways
As is my wont, uninformed speculation on bigger issues. I can see a time when Americans, with their toxic mix of ‘Because freedom!’ and selective blindness at the impact of decisions, are going to reject the things that are required to make something like autonomous driving a reality.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/01/04/national/traffic-deaths-fall-4000-japan-first-time-67-years/#.WnPFjdKLSUk
In 2016, the number of people who died in traffic accidents dropped by 213, or 5.2 percent, from a year earlier to 3,904.
[…]
An agency official attributed the decline to […] improved vehicle performance, like automatic brakes; […]
I realize that there are lies, damn lies and statistics, but Japan has roughly half the population of the US, but the number of traffic deaths is 1/8th of the US. There are obviously a lot of factors (decent public transport, strong incentive to buy a new car at least every 5-6 years because of the shaken regime, a higher barrier to getting a license and probably other stuff I’m not thinking of)
I’m thinking about this now cause I’ve been in a discussion with a couple of people about medical testing results here in Japan. In Japan, large scale employesr aremandated to have health checks done on their employees once a year. There is a whole infrastructure (mobile vans, nurses, doctors) who come to large employers to give these health checks.
The people I’m talking to are adamant that their employers had absolutely no right to know their medical condition and have engaged in a long battle with them to not do the health checks. The compromise (which is built into the system) is that the person would go to a private office that specializes in these health checks, get the medical info and keep it on file at their home for 5 years, so if a medical issue came up, they would have some baselines.
Perhaps it is my recent medical issues that have me thinking like this, but I am to the point where I don’t give a f**k who knows about my medical condition. I guess this is an old person’s thing. And I have some colleagues who had serious conditions caught early, so are still working. So I’m wondering about people who refuse. I can see their point, but I think it has to bow down to the upcoming realities.
Now, I can see that some US companies, if they are paying for insurance, would be happy to strike off someone who is going to cost them a lot. I could see them negotiating with the insurance company to cut loose high risk employers in order to get a better package. Maybe I’m too trusting of Japanese employers. But to get the kind of savings that makes a government paid medical insurance system possible, you have to get a lot more data and process it automatically. I see the same thing with autonomous cars, in that the countries that will reap the benefits are going to be the ones that don’t act like jerks about change. Which is going to leave out the US…
in 1998—approximately 194 billion labor hours.1 What this means is that there was ultimately no growth at all in the number of hours worked over this 15-year period, despite the fact that the U.S population gained over 40 million people during that time, and despite the fact that there were thousands of new businesses established during that time.” That seems remarkable to me.
Could be. Factors to consider are labor force participation rate (declining) and labor productivity (plodding along).
in 1998—approximately 194 billion labor hours.1 What this means is that there was ultimately no growth at all in the number of hours worked over this 15-year period, despite the fact that the U.S population gained over 40 million people during that time, and despite the fact that there were thousands of new businesses established during that time.” That seems remarkable to me.
Could be. Factors to consider are labor force participation rate (declining) and labor productivity (plodding along).
think a far more efficient and cheaper Uber
Uber drivers work for short money, and they supply their own car. top that.
seriously, by the time this is actually a thing, i’ll be dead or retired and riding my bike most of the time. my motor outings will mostly be taking my lawn waste to the dump.
so you kids have fun.
i’ll take the bus.
think a far more efficient and cheaper Uber
Uber drivers work for short money, and they supply their own car. top that.
seriously, by the time this is actually a thing, i’ll be dead or retired and riding my bike most of the time. my motor outings will mostly be taking my lawn waste to the dump.
so you kids have fun.
i’ll take the bus.
Assuming their ubiquity
this reminds me of the old joke about the mathematician stranded on the desert island with a case of canned food.
and i loved the virtual car thing. when i need a virtual ride somewhere, i’ll call one.
i’m sure we’ll have driverless cars at some point. and i’m sure we’ll all have to jump through hoops of all sorts to make them feasible, and i’m sure we’ll end up doing it anyway, because (a) gadgets and (b) there’s lots of money to be made.
i don’t really see the upside, but wtf do i know. i’m old, i still use a flip phone. it seems like a lot of gee-whiz bullshit, to me.
have fun kids.
Assuming their ubiquity
this reminds me of the old joke about the mathematician stranded on the desert island with a case of canned food.
and i loved the virtual car thing. when i need a virtual ride somewhere, i’ll call one.
i’m sure we’ll have driverless cars at some point. and i’m sure we’ll all have to jump through hoops of all sorts to make them feasible, and i’m sure we’ll end up doing it anyway, because (a) gadgets and (b) there’s lots of money to be made.
i don’t really see the upside, but wtf do i know. i’m old, i still use a flip phone. it seems like a lot of gee-whiz bullshit, to me.
have fun kids.
i’ll take the bus.
Self-Driving Shuttle Buses Might Be the Future of Transportation
Autonomous Buses Will Revolutionize Public Transportation, but at What Cost?
China launches Alphaba public self-driving bus project
Self-driving bus starts first route in Germany
i’ll take the bus.
Self-Driving Shuttle Buses Might Be the Future of Transportation
Autonomous Buses Will Revolutionize Public Transportation, but at What Cost?
China launches Alphaba public self-driving bus project
Self-driving bus starts first route in Germany
There have been tests where airliners have taken off, flown across the country and landed without anyone touching the controls
this comes up every time the driverless car things get discussed.
if we institute a federal regime where every vehicle has to declare its route of travel before embarking, including every street it will travel on and every on and off ramp it will take, and all entry to and from this network of roads is exclusively from some small number of embarkation and arrival points, and a medium sized army of specialist federal employees choreographs the departure and arrival of each vehicle along with the exact speed they will travel en route and the distance they will maintain from every other vehicle while en route, while traveling through a medium with no physical barriers except weather, then yes, drverless cars might be a more tractable problem.
the vehicles are not really the problem. given optimal conditions, i’m sure a driverless vehicle can het from point a to point b without incident.
if a roomba can do it, i’m sure a car can.
it’s the optimal condition issue that’s the problem. where i live, optimal conditions do not prevail. quality and type of road surface, weather conditions, whether the road that your GPS tells you to take is even there today, are all jump balls.
and until we get to the point where we can “assume ubiquity”, masshole drivers are also a reality. world leaders in making right turns from the passing lane, preferably without signaling.
i had a mr robot when i was a kid, too. it was a great toy.
all of you kids please go do your in vivo driverless car experimenting in your own neighborhoods.
There have been tests where airliners have taken off, flown across the country and landed without anyone touching the controls
this comes up every time the driverless car things get discussed.
if we institute a federal regime where every vehicle has to declare its route of travel before embarking, including every street it will travel on and every on and off ramp it will take, and all entry to and from this network of roads is exclusively from some small number of embarkation and arrival points, and a medium sized army of specialist federal employees choreographs the departure and arrival of each vehicle along with the exact speed they will travel en route and the distance they will maintain from every other vehicle while en route, while traveling through a medium with no physical barriers except weather, then yes, drverless cars might be a more tractable problem.
the vehicles are not really the problem. given optimal conditions, i’m sure a driverless vehicle can het from point a to point b without incident.
if a roomba can do it, i’m sure a car can.
it’s the optimal condition issue that’s the problem. where i live, optimal conditions do not prevail. quality and type of road surface, weather conditions, whether the road that your GPS tells you to take is even there today, are all jump balls.
and until we get to the point where we can “assume ubiquity”, masshole drivers are also a reality. world leaders in making right turns from the passing lane, preferably without signaling.
i had a mr robot when i was a kid, too. it was a great toy.
all of you kids please go do your in vivo driverless car experimenting in your own neighborhoods.
Self-Driving Shuttle Buses Might Be the Future of Transportation
i’d take a self-driving bus before venturing into a world of self-driving cars, anytime.
predictable, consistent routes of travel. dedicated lanes in some places.
an order of magnitude simpler case.
plus, much more conservative use of resources.
Self-Driving Shuttle Buses Might Be the Future of Transportation
i’d take a self-driving bus before venturing into a world of self-driving cars, anytime.
predictable, consistent routes of travel. dedicated lanes in some places.
an order of magnitude simpler case.
plus, much more conservative use of resources.
“predictable, consistent routes of travel. dedicated lanes in some places.”
Might as well put in trolley tracks to everywhere.
At least trolley have enough mass that they can plow pass masshole drivers.
Could we install Robotic Death Lasers to deal with the masshole (or joisey) drivers? that might make it politically feasible.
“predictable, consistent routes of travel. dedicated lanes in some places.”
Might as well put in trolley tracks to everywhere.
At least trolley have enough mass that they can plow pass masshole drivers.
Could we install Robotic Death Lasers to deal with the masshole (or joisey) drivers? that might make it politically feasible.
Hey, trollies work a century ago. Around here, the Key System had great coverage, was cheap, etc. So what happened? General Moters bought the company and shut it down. So they could sell more diesel busses. Ah, capitalism!
Hey, trollies work a century ago. Around here, the Key System had great coverage, was cheap, etc. So what happened? General Moters bought the company and shut it down. So they could sell more diesel busses. Ah, capitalism!
Peak pricing would encourage more cars to enter the fray.,,
And passengers to leave it.
i’d take a self-driving bus before venturing into a world of self-driving cars, anytime..
Autonomous vehicles will likely blur the line between taxis and buses.
all of you kids please go do your in vivo driverless car experimenting in your own neighborhoods.
That’s pretty well what will happen. Autonomous vehicles need regulatory clearance; they’ll happen where they are allowed.
Like I said above, the US will likely be a laggard in adopting them; in somewhere like Singapore (a much more constrained, and far smaller environment; already heavily regulated; driving is a huge pain in the ass rather than an emblem of personal freedom…) they could become ubiquitous quite quickly.
Peak pricing would encourage more cars to enter the fray.,,
And passengers to leave it.
i’d take a self-driving bus before venturing into a world of self-driving cars, anytime..
Autonomous vehicles will likely blur the line between taxis and buses.
all of you kids please go do your in vivo driverless car experimenting in your own neighborhoods.
That’s pretty well what will happen. Autonomous vehicles need regulatory clearance; they’ll happen where they are allowed.
Like I said above, the US will likely be a laggard in adopting them; in somewhere like Singapore (a much more constrained, and far smaller environment; already heavily regulated; driving is a huge pain in the ass rather than an emblem of personal freedom…) they could become ubiquitous quite quickly.
So what happened? General Moters bought the company and shut it down. So they could sell more diesel busses. Ah, capitalism!…
This is more likely to shut a lot of traditional auto makers down in a couple of decades’ time. They are late to the party, and the auto manufacturing business will be significantly smaller overall.
So what happened? General Moters bought the company and shut it down. So they could sell more diesel busses. Ah, capitalism!…
This is more likely to shut a lot of traditional auto makers down in a couple of decades’ time. They are late to the party, and the auto manufacturing business will be significantly smaller overall.
Might as well put in trolley tracks to everywhere.
buses need less up-front infrastrucure investment, but trollies are ok with me.
cars in general make sense in less densely populated areas. buses trolleys subways etc make sense in more densely populated areas.
cars are really convenient. you can go where you like, when you like, and they take you door to door. unless you are in a place where he parking lot is further from your destination than the bus stop. they are also a really large, expensive, resource intensive way to move a single digit number of people from one place to another.
there’s a great case to be made for driverless cars for getting folks who can’t / shouldn’t be driving from one place to another. most of those needs can also be addressed by cabs, ride shares, or other services.
to the degree that driverless cars increase the number of cars on the road, i would actually see that as a significant downside.
but mostly i see driverless cars as a huge investment of intellectual, engineering, and capital investment, for at most a very modest upside.
people talk about them like they’re gonna be some life-changing innovation. i’m not seeing it. the number of cases where there’s a big advantage in having your car drive you versus just driving yourself is just not that large. and a lot of those cases – for example the sheer waste of human time spent sitting in traffic – would be better addressed by things other than self-driving cars.
the biggest win i see is that now folks will be able to go out, have a few cocktails, let their car drive them home, and not have to get a cab back to the bar the next day to pick their car up.
a social good, of sorts, but not the basis of an industry.
also not considered here is the fact that a lot of people would simply prefer to drive, because they enjoy it. driving is, or at least can be, fun. so it’s likely that the massholes will always be with us.
mostly my feelings about self driving cars are:
that’s kind of cool!
so what?
this is what we’re spending billions and billions of dollars on?
i’m sure they are on their way, and in this country at least (the US) i’m sure they will mostly be a cool toy for upscale suburbanites, and a way to lay off people who drive trucks and buses and (maybe) cabs.
o brave new world that has such gizmos in it.
Might as well put in trolley tracks to everywhere.
buses need less up-front infrastrucure investment, but trollies are ok with me.
cars in general make sense in less densely populated areas. buses trolleys subways etc make sense in more densely populated areas.
cars are really convenient. you can go where you like, when you like, and they take you door to door. unless you are in a place where he parking lot is further from your destination than the bus stop. they are also a really large, expensive, resource intensive way to move a single digit number of people from one place to another.
there’s a great case to be made for driverless cars for getting folks who can’t / shouldn’t be driving from one place to another. most of those needs can also be addressed by cabs, ride shares, or other services.
to the degree that driverless cars increase the number of cars on the road, i would actually see that as a significant downside.
but mostly i see driverless cars as a huge investment of intellectual, engineering, and capital investment, for at most a very modest upside.
people talk about them like they’re gonna be some life-changing innovation. i’m not seeing it. the number of cases where there’s a big advantage in having your car drive you versus just driving yourself is just not that large. and a lot of those cases – for example the sheer waste of human time spent sitting in traffic – would be better addressed by things other than self-driving cars.
the biggest win i see is that now folks will be able to go out, have a few cocktails, let their car drive them home, and not have to get a cab back to the bar the next day to pick their car up.
a social good, of sorts, but not the basis of an industry.
also not considered here is the fact that a lot of people would simply prefer to drive, because they enjoy it. driving is, or at least can be, fun. so it’s likely that the massholes will always be with us.
mostly my feelings about self driving cars are:
that’s kind of cool!
so what?
this is what we’re spending billions and billions of dollars on?
i’m sure they are on their way, and in this country at least (the US) i’m sure they will mostly be a cool toy for upscale suburbanites, and a way to lay off people who drive trucks and buses and (maybe) cabs.
o brave new world that has such gizmos in it.
Low wage growth even in a tight labor market?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/01/business/economy/wages-salaries-job-market.html
Low wage growth even in a tight labor market?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/01/business/economy/wages-salaries-job-market.html
the biggest win i see is that now folks will be able to go out, have a few cocktails, let their car drive them home, and not have to get a cab back to the bar the next day to pick their car up…
How about you never need a parking space at work ever again ?
It’s potentially a 24hr personal chauffeur, at a price anyone who now drives can afford.
the biggest win i see is that now folks will be able to go out, have a few cocktails, let their car drive them home, and not have to get a cab back to the bar the next day to pick their car up…
How about you never need a parking space at work ever again ?
It’s potentially a 24hr personal chauffeur, at a price anyone who now drives can afford.
Low wage growth even in a tight labor market?
Not surprising under conditions of market oligarchy?
Low wage growth even in a tight labor market?
Not surprising under conditions of market oligarchy?
Road traffic deaths per 100,000 population (WHO numbers)
USA: 10.6
Japan: 3.7
UK: 2.9
If only we had our freedom.
Road traffic deaths per 100,000 population (WHO numbers)
USA: 10.6
Japan: 3.7
UK: 2.9
If only we had our freedom.
Typo there, should be 4.7 for Japan. LJ’s numbers are lower: I suspect the WHO’s are more comparable, but somewhat out of date.
Typo there, should be 4.7 for Japan. LJ’s numbers are lower: I suspect the WHO’s are more comparable, but somewhat out of date.
How about you never need a parking space at work ever again ?
that’d be great.
i live in what is reputed to be the 6th most gridlocked urban area in the US. the volume of traffic from about 6AM to about 9:30 AM is extreme. ditto 4:30 to 7:00 PM.
the rest of the day and weekends, not so much.
even assuming you could cut the total number of cars needed to move that many people in half, or even to one third, there will be a lot of cars parked somewhere for a lot of the day.
your comment leads me to ask:
are we all going to share the same set of cars? can you smoke in the car? smoke a cigar? eat? make out with your spouse or date? who cleans the burger wrappers out of the car? do they do this after every ride?
does at least one passenger have to be an adult? do you want to get picked up by a car that just gave six eight year olds a ride home from the beach? or a young parent who just changed baby’s nappie in the car? or a pair of very horny teen-agers? or some old geezerlike me who might not have complete control over their bodily fluids? somebody who is stunningly flatulent?
the great failure of technology is mistaking the whiteboard for real life.
How about you never need a parking space at work ever again ?
that’d be great.
i live in what is reputed to be the 6th most gridlocked urban area in the US. the volume of traffic from about 6AM to about 9:30 AM is extreme. ditto 4:30 to 7:00 PM.
the rest of the day and weekends, not so much.
even assuming you could cut the total number of cars needed to move that many people in half, or even to one third, there will be a lot of cars parked somewhere for a lot of the day.
your comment leads me to ask:
are we all going to share the same set of cars? can you smoke in the car? smoke a cigar? eat? make out with your spouse or date? who cleans the burger wrappers out of the car? do they do this after every ride?
does at least one passenger have to be an adult? do you want to get picked up by a car that just gave six eight year olds a ride home from the beach? or a young parent who just changed baby’s nappie in the car? or a pair of very horny teen-agers? or some old geezerlike me who might not have complete control over their bodily fluids? somebody who is stunningly flatulent?
the great failure of technology is mistaking the whiteboard for real life.
Why don’t all these questions apply to busses?
Why don’t all these questions apply to busses?
even assuming you could cut the total number of cars needed to move that many people in half, or even to one third, there will be a lot of cars parked somewhere for a lot of the day…
Some of them – the rest driving around providing those Uber like services throughout the day. Which is rather the point.
are we all going to share the same set of cars? can you smoke in the car? smoke a cigar? eat? make out with your spouse or date? who cleans the burger wrappers out of the car? do they do this after every ride?…
Who knows ? Several years to find out the answers to those questions.
Nothing to stop a fleet setting aside a percentage of their cars as smoking vehicles should they wish.
Who cleans the restroom in McDonalds ?
If you crap up the car, maybe it costs a bit more for the ride. Maybe you have utility cars for the rougher jobs.
Like the black ice thing, these are all solvable problems (if a little more complicated).
even assuming you could cut the total number of cars needed to move that many people in half, or even to one third, there will be a lot of cars parked somewhere for a lot of the day…
Some of them – the rest driving around providing those Uber like services throughout the day. Which is rather the point.
are we all going to share the same set of cars? can you smoke in the car? smoke a cigar? eat? make out with your spouse or date? who cleans the burger wrappers out of the car? do they do this after every ride?…
Who knows ? Several years to find out the answers to those questions.
Nothing to stop a fleet setting aside a percentage of their cars as smoking vehicles should they wish.
Who cleans the restroom in McDonalds ?
If you crap up the car, maybe it costs a bit more for the ride. Maybe you have utility cars for the rougher jobs.
Like the black ice thing, these are all solvable problems (if a little more complicated).
if we’re sharing the cars, then we have taxis. we already have taxis. i don’t know anyone who takes a taxi to work.
if we’re sharing the cars, then we have taxis. we already have taxis. i don’t know anyone who takes a taxi to work.
Cost too much, takes too long to arrive.
What if it didn’t ?
Cost too much, takes too long to arrive.
What if it didn’t ?
From today’s report:
Average hourly earnings rose 0.3% over the prior month and 2.9% over the prior year. This year-on-year wage increase is the best since 2009.
From today’s report:
Average hourly earnings rose 0.3% over the prior month and 2.9% over the prior year. This year-on-year wage increase is the best since 2009.
takes too long to arrive.
What if it didn’t ?
it would. taxi owners couldn’t keep enough taxis out there to serve everyone quickly during peak commute times.
i live 25 miles away from my job, in the very rural suburbs. there aren’t going to be any taxis anywhere near where i live. we don’t even have any Uber drivers in my town.
takes too long to arrive.
What if it didn’t ?
it would. taxi owners couldn’t keep enough taxis out there to serve everyone quickly during peak commute times.
i live 25 miles away from my job, in the very rural suburbs. there aren’t going to be any taxis anywhere near where i live. we don’t even have any Uber drivers in my town.
Average hourly earnings rose 0.3% over the prior month and 2.9% over the prior year. This year-on-year wage increase is the best since 2009.
the Obama economy keeps chugging along.
Average hourly earnings rose 0.3% over the prior month and 2.9% over the prior year. This year-on-year wage increase is the best since 2009.
the Obama economy keeps chugging along.
If we’re talking about self-driving ride-service, the cars could be equipped with interior cameras, which would be known up-front. That would discipline most people against being messy and/or sexy.
If we’re talking about self-driving ride-service, the cars could be equipped with interior cameras, which would be known up-front. That would discipline most people against being messy and/or sexy.
Did someone propose that everyone, everywhere would only ride in shared cars?
Did someone propose that everyone, everywhere would only ride in shared cars?
Why don’t all these questions apply to busses?
Some do, some don’t. In general, there’s a driver on a bus who keeps things between the lines.
Why don’t all these questions apply to busses?
Some do, some don’t. In general, there’s a driver on a bus who keeps things between the lines.
Average hourly earnings rose 0.3% over the prior month and 2.9% over the prior year. This year-on-year wage increase is the best since 2009.
Thank you Obama!
Nigel and hairshirt, but especially Nigel, you guys seem very enthusiastic about self-driving cars. I for one will not stand in the way of this great leap forward in transportation.
Bon chance!
My point overall is that they will solve some problems and create some others. Like everything else.
It’s still a bunch of cars driving around, just like now. And all of the things that are going to make it practical are going to require lots of corollary changes, which will be nice for some folks and not so nice for others.
If we’re going to invest billions of dollars and thousands of man-years in R&D to transform public transportation, self-driving cars would not be at the top of my list. But it ain’t my money, so somebody else will get to make that decision.
Average hourly earnings rose 0.3% over the prior month and 2.9% over the prior year. This year-on-year wage increase is the best since 2009.
Thank you Obama!
Nigel and hairshirt, but especially Nigel, you guys seem very enthusiastic about self-driving cars. I for one will not stand in the way of this great leap forward in transportation.
Bon chance!
My point overall is that they will solve some problems and create some others. Like everything else.
It’s still a bunch of cars driving around, just like now. And all of the things that are going to make it practical are going to require lots of corollary changes, which will be nice for some folks and not so nice for others.
If we’re going to invest billions of dollars and thousands of man-years in R&D to transform public transportation, self-driving cars would not be at the top of my list. But it ain’t my money, so somebody else will get to make that decision.
You said you’d take a driverless bus. Either way, humanity has survived the scourge of public toilets. We used to have telephone booths, too. They were neat.
You said you’d take a driverless bus. Either way, humanity has survived the scourge of public toilets. We used to have telephone booths, too. They were neat.
Did someone propose that everyone, everywhere would only ride in shared cars?
russell asked “are we all going to share the same set of cars?”
Did someone propose that everyone, everywhere would only ride in shared cars?
russell asked “are we all going to share the same set of cars?”
If we’re going to invest billions of dollars and thousands of man-years in R&D to transform public transportation, self-driving cars would not be at the top of my list.
I’m not sure it would be at the top of mine, either, if I had such a list. I mostly find the concept interesting, particularly if it ultimately involves cars working on a networked system creating optimal traffic flows (on the smaller scale – cooperative merging, intelligent traffic-signal timing, etc.) and routing (on the larger scale – arrival time, energy economy, wear-and-tear, or whatever else). That’s all pretty future-y stuff.
What I can see in the nearer term is cars with more and more self-management, if not being completely self-driving. That’s already underway. I don’t think it would be difficult to have cars in more-urbanized areas made to obey traffic signals, prevented from deviating too much from the speed of other traffic, avoiding rear-end collisions and such. Basically letting people drive, but preventing them from doing the particularly stupid things people do. It’s sort of like cab-code signaling on transit lines. The operator controls the train, but can’t go any faster than the signal system allows, given the presence of another train ahead (or whatever other condition the system accounts for – switch alignment, broken rail, dragging equipment).
If we’re going to invest billions of dollars and thousands of man-years in R&D to transform public transportation, self-driving cars would not be at the top of my list.
I’m not sure it would be at the top of mine, either, if I had such a list. I mostly find the concept interesting, particularly if it ultimately involves cars working on a networked system creating optimal traffic flows (on the smaller scale – cooperative merging, intelligent traffic-signal timing, etc.) and routing (on the larger scale – arrival time, energy economy, wear-and-tear, or whatever else). That’s all pretty future-y stuff.
What I can see in the nearer term is cars with more and more self-management, if not being completely self-driving. That’s already underway. I don’t think it would be difficult to have cars in more-urbanized areas made to obey traffic signals, prevented from deviating too much from the speed of other traffic, avoiding rear-end collisions and such. Basically letting people drive, but preventing them from doing the particularly stupid things people do. It’s sort of like cab-code signaling on transit lines. The operator controls the train, but can’t go any faster than the signal system allows, given the presence of another train ahead (or whatever other condition the system accounts for – switch alignment, broken rail, dragging equipment).
A lot of the articles speculating on the impacts of autonomous vehicles seem to assume that they’re going to be a lot more expensive than current vehicles. At least at first. But there’s the possibility of aftermarket kits that can convert existing cars to autonomous driving. If so, the switchover will be much faster and have a much greater impact than expected.
A lot of the articles speculating on the impacts of autonomous vehicles seem to assume that they’re going to be a lot more expensive than current vehicles. At least at first. But there’s the possibility of aftermarket kits that can convert existing cars to autonomous driving. If so, the switchover will be much faster and have a much greater impact than expected.
@hairshirt
Arizona’s minimum wage is statewide (Flagstaff has its own, higher, minimum wage law). It phases in, reaching $12 in 2020. Colorado has a similar law. Along the Front Range, jobs that have always been considered “minimum wage” jobs are already paying more than the minimum — 3.1% unemployment will do that. A fast-food place I was in last week was offering $12.50/hr for closing shift workers.
Of course, given the Front Range’s recent rent history, it’s not even close to a living wage.
Rural areas are a different story.
@hairshirt
Arizona’s minimum wage is statewide (Flagstaff has its own, higher, minimum wage law). It phases in, reaching $12 in 2020. Colorado has a similar law. Along the Front Range, jobs that have always been considered “minimum wage” jobs are already paying more than the minimum — 3.1% unemployment will do that. A fast-food place I was in last week was offering $12.50/hr for closing shift workers.
Of course, given the Front Range’s recent rent history, it’s not even close to a living wage.
Rural areas are a different story.
You heard it here first — the defining market for autonomous cars will be small electric vehicles that carry Boomers with fading eyesight or physical problems from their paid-for suburban house to the doctor, grocery, etc.
It’s always about the Boomers…
You heard it here first — the defining market for autonomous cars will be small electric vehicles that carry Boomers with fading eyesight or physical problems from their paid-for suburban house to the doctor, grocery, etc.
It’s always about the Boomers…
Average hourly earnings rose 0.3% over the prior month and 2.9% over the prior year. This year-on-year wage increase is the best since 2009.
Thank you Obama!
I’d give Janet Yellen a great deal of credit, too. Possibly the best Fed Chair you ever had.
Nigel and hairshirt, but especially Nigel, you guys seem very enthusiastic about self-driving cars…
It’s not entirely enthusiasm; more that I regard them as inevitable, and likely to have consequences as profound as the adoption of the motor car last century.
I don’t think it would be difficult to have cars in more-urbanized areas made to obey traffic signals…
this would be great. and it would be nice in rural areas, too.
there’s an intersection on a four lane state highway near where i live – one we have to deal with if we go anywhere. and people constantly run through the beginning of red lights, at 65mph.
better yet, make traffic lights emit a signal of some kind that broadcasts their state. then make cars smart enough to be able to figure out what that signal means for them, and get ready to take over braking if necessary. easier than trying to react to lights with computer vision.
Average hourly earnings rose 0.3% over the prior month and 2.9% over the prior year. This year-on-year wage increase is the best since 2009.
Thank you Obama!
I’d give Janet Yellen a great deal of credit, too. Possibly the best Fed Chair you ever had.
Nigel and hairshirt, but especially Nigel, you guys seem very enthusiastic about self-driving cars…
It’s not entirely enthusiasm; more that I regard them as inevitable, and likely to have consequences as profound as the adoption of the motor car last century.
I don’t think it would be difficult to have cars in more-urbanized areas made to obey traffic signals…
this would be great. and it would be nice in rural areas, too.
there’s an intersection on a four lane state highway near where i live – one we have to deal with if we go anywhere. and people constantly run through the beginning of red lights, at 65mph.
better yet, make traffic lights emit a signal of some kind that broadcasts their state. then make cars smart enough to be able to figure out what that signal means for them, and get ready to take over braking if necessary. easier than trying to react to lights with computer vision.
What I can see in the nearer term is cars with more and more self-management, if not being completely self-driving. That’s already underway. I don’t think it would be difficult to have cars in more-urbanized areas made to obey traffic signals, prevented from deviating too much from the speed of other traffic, avoiding rear-end collisions and such. Basically letting people drive, but preventing them from doing the particularly stupid things people do.
That would make all kinds of sense. But it will be interesting to see whether it arrives as the kind of incremental change that people don’t notice. Or whether it is attempted at one step, producing the predictable reaction from those who see any such constrain as a horrid infringement on their libertarian philosophy.
What I can see in the nearer term is cars with more and more self-management, if not being completely self-driving. That’s already underway. I don’t think it would be difficult to have cars in more-urbanized areas made to obey traffic signals, prevented from deviating too much from the speed of other traffic, avoiding rear-end collisions and such. Basically letting people drive, but preventing them from doing the particularly stupid things people do.
That would make all kinds of sense. But it will be interesting to see whether it arrives as the kind of incremental change that people don’t notice. Or whether it is attempted at one step, producing the predictable reaction from those who see any such constrain as a horrid infringement on their libertarian philosophy.
The decoupling of restaurant industry labor from their tips:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/say-goodbye-to-your-tips/
The decoupling of restaurant industry labor from their tips:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/say-goodbye-to-your-tips/
I’d give Janet Yellen a great deal of credit, too. Possibly the best Fed Chair you ever had.
I’d second that motion. It was a bit of an amazement that Trump nominated someone of similar views to be the next Fed Chairman. I was betting that he would put forward some total nut case, as with so many of his other economic positions. Whew!
I’d give Janet Yellen a great deal of credit, too. Possibly the best Fed Chair you ever had.
I’d second that motion. It was a bit of an amazement that Trump nominated someone of similar views to be the next Fed Chairman. I was betting that he would put forward some total nut case, as with so many of his other economic positions. Whew!
Somewhat realistically, to make ‘self driving’ cars practical will require significant upgrades to the road infrastructure, so that the cars can figure out where they are supposed to drive (when there’s snow/mud on the road, obscuring markings), when signals are going to change, etc.
There was a lot of road infrastructure to accommodate automobiles and human drivers, a hundred years ago. And, in the process, lost the “self-driving” feature of “climb in the buggy, say ‘giddyup’, and the horse knows the way home”.
With catastrophic global warming, that may be in our future.
Somewhat realistically, to make ‘self driving’ cars practical will require significant upgrades to the road infrastructure, so that the cars can figure out where they are supposed to drive (when there’s snow/mud on the road, obscuring markings), when signals are going to change, etc.
There was a lot of road infrastructure to accommodate automobiles and human drivers, a hundred years ago. And, in the process, lost the “self-driving” feature of “climb in the buggy, say ‘giddyup’, and the horse knows the way home”.
With catastrophic global warming, that may be in our future.
As soon as Jerome Powell and company invert the yield curve, mp will tweet him out of the Fed Chairman job, while insulting his relatives and his genetic lineage. We’ll learn that Obama actually appointed Powell to sabotage growth.
Somewhere sapient remarked that she’s afraid we are headed for nuclear confrontation, as I am. I guess that makes the Pentagon a nest of liberals, like the CIA and FBI:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/nyt-pentagon-is-afraid-of-what-trump-might-do-on-north-korea/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/trumps-new-nuke-nuclear-plan-npr-raising-alarms-among-military-brass-war/
I have an unfinished post reserved from Sebastian’s greatest fear thread weeks ago about MY greatest lifelong fear. I’ll try to finish it and post it somewhere here before it comes true.
I’m trying to imagine the libertarian rental bidding process for the entire autonomous vehicle fleets in major metro areas when the sirens go off for the 45-minute warning that nukes are arcing for our cities.
Not that having ones own drivable vehicle will be of any help.
Better to leave now and hit the Cormac McCarthy road while the traffic is moderate.
Will autonomous rental vehicles in major Middle Eastern cities have the car-bomb option?
I can imagine suicide bombers around the world will be at the front of the line for the suicide-bomberless vehicles.
That is one segment of labor who is not afraid of losing their job.
hairshirt way above:
“If we’re talking about self-driving ride-service, the cars could be equipped with interior cameras, which would be known up-front. That would discipline most people against being messy and/or sexy.”
Say goodbye to Makeout Overlook. Teenagers’ tips are confiscated and now this.
Although, a little bird told me that judging from
current porn conventions, having a camera in the car doesn’t seem to discourage the sexy.
In fact, I’ll bet Uber, given their front office reputation, sells the camera recordings to online porn merchants as part of their vertical integration and cross merchandising.
There will be small print waivers in the rental contracts.
As soon as Jerome Powell and company invert the yield curve, mp will tweet him out of the Fed Chairman job, while insulting his relatives and his genetic lineage. We’ll learn that Obama actually appointed Powell to sabotage growth.
Somewhere sapient remarked that she’s afraid we are headed for nuclear confrontation, as I am. I guess that makes the Pentagon a nest of liberals, like the CIA and FBI:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/nyt-pentagon-is-afraid-of-what-trump-might-do-on-north-korea/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/trumps-new-nuke-nuclear-plan-npr-raising-alarms-among-military-brass-war/
I have an unfinished post reserved from Sebastian’s greatest fear thread weeks ago about MY greatest lifelong fear. I’ll try to finish it and post it somewhere here before it comes true.
I’m trying to imagine the libertarian rental bidding process for the entire autonomous vehicle fleets in major metro areas when the sirens go off for the 45-minute warning that nukes are arcing for our cities.
Not that having ones own drivable vehicle will be of any help.
Better to leave now and hit the Cormac McCarthy road while the traffic is moderate.
Will autonomous rental vehicles in major Middle Eastern cities have the car-bomb option?
I can imagine suicide bombers around the world will be at the front of the line for the suicide-bomberless vehicles.
That is one segment of labor who is not afraid of losing their job.
hairshirt way above:
“If we’re talking about self-driving ride-service, the cars could be equipped with interior cameras, which would be known up-front. That would discipline most people against being messy and/or sexy.”
Say goodbye to Makeout Overlook. Teenagers’ tips are confiscated and now this.
Although, a little bird told me that judging from
current porn conventions, having a camera in the car doesn’t seem to discourage the sexy.
In fact, I’ll bet Uber, given their front office reputation, sells the camera recordings to online porn merchants as part of their vertical integration and cross merchandising.
There will be small print waivers in the rental contracts.
The Memo! She is loose!
The Memo! She is loose!
I’d give Janet Yellen a great deal of credit, too. Possibly the best Fed Chair you ever had.
Seconded.
You said you’d take a driverless bus.
Yep.
The presence of the driver is only one of many reasons that people don’t change their kid’s nappies on the bus.
Buses are not the be-all and end-all. And the fact that you have to share the same space with a bunch of potentially sketchy characters is one of the reasons most people say they don’t like taking them.
Now, they will be able to share a much smaller space with a bunch of potentially sketchy characters, just serially, not all at once.
I have no doubt they are on their way, I have no doubt that many changes will be made to accommodate them. I’m just not seeing an upside that justifies the amount of money and effort that is being spent on them.
We’re gonna still all be riding around in cars.
The biggest lift in all of this is going to be getting people to give up being the driver.
I’d give Janet Yellen a great deal of credit, too. Possibly the best Fed Chair you ever had.
Seconded.
You said you’d take a driverless bus.
Yep.
The presence of the driver is only one of many reasons that people don’t change their kid’s nappies on the bus.
Buses are not the be-all and end-all. And the fact that you have to share the same space with a bunch of potentially sketchy characters is one of the reasons most people say they don’t like taking them.
Now, they will be able to share a much smaller space with a bunch of potentially sketchy characters, just serially, not all at once.
I have no doubt they are on their way, I have no doubt that many changes will be made to accommodate them. I’m just not seeing an upside that justifies the amount of money and effort that is being spent on them.
We’re gonna still all be riding around in cars.
The biggest lift in all of this is going to be getting people to give up being the driver.
and yeah, people clean McDonald’s toilets, but I don’t think I want to spend an hour in one.
and yeah, people clean McDonald’s toilets, but I don’t think I want to spend an hour in one.
The Memo! She is loose!
Was it Director Comey in the Library with the candlestick (and a FISA warrant)?
The Memo! She is loose!
Was it Director Comey in the Library with the candlestick (and a FISA warrant)?
THE MEMO.
h/t BJ
THE MEMO.
h/t BJ
The Memo!
via Balloon Juice:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/lawyer-drafted-nunes-memo-brutally-slapped-judge-order-ineptitude/
Conservative principles spreading thru the country like gastroenteritis thru a Calcutta Orange Julius stand.
Kash Patel is his name. We need immigration reform all right. With a blood test to keep out the foreign conservative asshole virus. I mean, we have more than enough of the home-grown kind.
We need emigration reform too. The kind where conservatives mper republicans are cuffed blindfolded, guided to the nearest seashore, and forced to swim for the nearest shithole with a gun barrel pressed against their necks.
The Memo!
via Balloon Juice:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/lawyer-drafted-nunes-memo-brutally-slapped-judge-order-ineptitude/
Conservative principles spreading thru the country like gastroenteritis thru a Calcutta Orange Julius stand.
Kash Patel is his name. We need immigration reform all right. With a blood test to keep out the foreign conservative asshole virus. I mean, we have more than enough of the home-grown kind.
We need emigration reform too. The kind where conservatives mper republicans are cuffed blindfolded, guided to the nearest seashore, and forced to swim for the nearest shithole with a gun barrel pressed against their necks.
One of the tradeoffs could be that trucks on the roads will become smaller, traveling slower. Without drivers; except for refueling/recharging, maintenance, loading/unloading; they can operate 24 hours a day.
One of the tradeoffs could be that trucks on the roads will become smaller, traveling slower. Without drivers; except for refueling/recharging, maintenance, loading/unloading; they can operate 24 hours a day.
Without drivers; except for refueling/recharging, maintenance, loading/unloading; they can operate 24 hours a day.
In his Brooklyn youth, my late step-father split a cab with a buddy of his in NYC. He drove 12, his buddy drove 12. The cab ran 24/7.
Gas it up at the beginning of the shift. Periodically have it lubed and washed while you eat lunch.
FWIW.
Without drivers; except for refueling/recharging, maintenance, loading/unloading; they can operate 24 hours a day.
In his Brooklyn youth, my late step-father split a cab with a buddy of his in NYC. He drove 12, his buddy drove 12. The cab ran 24/7.
Gas it up at the beginning of the shift. Periodically have it lubed and washed while you eat lunch.
FWIW.
Re the Count at 12:10:
Given the cost of spreading lots of small nukes around the world, well now we know why the crazies want a big increase in the military budget. And it isn’t the kind of increase in military readiness that the actual, you know, military thinks is needed.
Re the Count at 12:10:
Given the cost of spreading lots of small nukes around the world, well now we know why the crazies want a big increase in the military budget. And it isn’t the kind of increase in military readiness that the actual, you know, military thinks is needed.
For some thoughts on the Machine Learning aspect of driverless cars, see this from the Economist’s Intelligence Unit (starting on page 24):
http://eiuperspectives.economist.com/sites/default/files/Risk_and_rewards.pdf
NB: the research was sponsored by Google. How much influence that had depends on your personal views. But in my observation, the Economist folks are pretty good about keeping sponsorships from bending their analysis all that much.
For some thoughts on the Machine Learning aspect of driverless cars, see this from the Economist’s Intelligence Unit (starting on page 24):
http://eiuperspectives.economist.com/sites/default/files/Risk_and_rewards.pdf
NB: the research was sponsored by Google. How much influence that had depends on your personal views. But in my observation, the Economist folks are pretty good about keeping sponsorships from bending their analysis all that much.
Autonomy and monopoly at the same time:
https://www.popsci.com/self-driving-car-fleets#page-2
via Eschaton
Autonomy and monopoly at the same time:
https://www.popsci.com/self-driving-car-fleets#page-2
via Eschaton
better yet, make traffic lights emit a signal of some kind that broadcasts their state. then make cars smart enough to be able to figure out what that signal means for them, and get ready to take over braking if necessary. easier than trying to react to lights with computer vision.
That’s actually what I had in mind. Once all the cars were equipped to receive direct traffic-signal inputs of whatever sort, the lights would be for show, if they remained at all, sort of like the noise purposely introduced on VoIP phones so people won’t think the line went dead when no one is saying anything.
better yet, make traffic lights emit a signal of some kind that broadcasts their state. then make cars smart enough to be able to figure out what that signal means for them, and get ready to take over braking if necessary. easier than trying to react to lights with computer vision.
That’s actually what I had in mind. Once all the cars were equipped to receive direct traffic-signal inputs of whatever sort, the lights would be for show, if they remained at all, sort of like the noise purposely introduced on VoIP phones so people won’t think the line went dead when no one is saying anything.
Autonomy and monopoly at the same time
Looks like, after bankrupting the taxi companies, they want their own time in the regulatory sun.
Autonomy and monopoly at the same time
Looks like, after bankrupting the taxi companies, they want their own time in the regulatory sun.
thermonuclear weapons don’t kill people, people kill people
thermonuclear weapons don’t kill people, people kill people
Regarding self-driving cars, I start from the position that cars should all be junked, but that’s just me, luddite. So I’d go along with (yes, once again) what russell said, or Atrios. Here’s another voice crying in the wilderness.
Ya’ know, reading some of the comments on this thread reminds me of the time I wasted back in the 90’s reading George Gilder broadsides.
Have they locked him up yet?
Regarding self-driving cars, I start from the position that cars should all be junked, but that’s just me, luddite. So I’d go along with (yes, once again) what russell said, or Atrios. Here’s another voice crying in the wilderness.
Ya’ know, reading some of the comments on this thread reminds me of the time I wasted back in the 90’s reading George Gilder broadsides.
Have they locked him up yet?
….and I am STILL WAITING for my flying car.
Long overdue, don’tcha’ think?
….and I am STILL WAITING for my flying car.
Long overdue, don’tcha’ think?
When the hell is smellivision going to replace television?
When the hell is smellivision going to replace television?
better yet, make traffic lights emit a signal of some kind that broadcasts their state
Like I said:
We’ll have self-driving cars right after we all pay to rebuild all of the infrastructure that currently doesn’t support self-driving cars all that well.
As a rough order of magnitude, there’s about one signalized intersection per 1,000 people. So, something like 300K signal beacons to procure, install, and maintain.
If we’re gonna go to all that trouble, just embed some kind of tractor beam in the roadbeds.
better yet, make traffic lights emit a signal of some kind that broadcasts their state
Like I said:
We’ll have self-driving cars right after we all pay to rebuild all of the infrastructure that currently doesn’t support self-driving cars all that well.
As a rough order of magnitude, there’s about one signalized intersection per 1,000 people. So, something like 300K signal beacons to procure, install, and maintain.
If we’re gonna go to all that trouble, just embed some kind of tractor beam in the roadbeds.
“tractor beam” sounds more expensive than a low-power radio beacon.
“tractor beam” sounds more expensive than a low-power radio beacon.
You already have smellovision!
You just have to douse your TV with a soft-drink, to let out the Magic Smoke™
You already have smellovision!
You just have to douse your TV with a soft-drink, to let out the Magic Smoke™
better yet, make traffic lights emit a signal of some kind that broadcasts their state
Better yet….eliminate traffic signals. Traffic would be governed by self regulating algorithms and micro price adjustments negotiated by robot traders in nanoseconds. The oppressive state apparatus would be eliminated. Think of getting into your vehicle in the morning having already made a killing in traffic futures or time to work put options. Uber/Lyft profits would be traded away, as all traffic is transformed into shimmering electrical field virtual probabilities.
Better yet: FLYING CARS! Eliminate the need for roads all together.
better yet, make traffic lights emit a signal of some kind that broadcasts their state
Better yet….eliminate traffic signals. Traffic would be governed by self regulating algorithms and micro price adjustments negotiated by robot traders in nanoseconds. The oppressive state apparatus would be eliminated. Think of getting into your vehicle in the morning having already made a killing in traffic futures or time to work put options. Uber/Lyft profits would be traded away, as all traffic is transformed into shimmering electrical field virtual probabilities.
Better yet: FLYING CARS! Eliminate the need for roads all together.
There’s a theory that roads without traffic signals at intersections would be safer
There’s a theory that roads without traffic signals at intersections would be safer
“tractor beam” sounds more expensive than a low-power radio beacon.
I say go for the gold.
What I’d really like to see is an in-car device that gracefully pulls the car over to the side of the road and turns it off if it detects that the driver is texting.
“tractor beam” sounds more expensive than a low-power radio beacon.
I say go for the gold.
What I’d really like to see is an in-car device that gracefully pulls the car over to the side of the road and turns it off if it detects that the driver is texting.
Better yet: FLYING CARS!
Vahana single passenger autonomous aircraft takes first flight
Better yet: FLYING CARS!
Vahana single passenger autonomous aircraft takes first flight
What I’d really like to see is an in-car device that gracefully pulls the car over to the side of the road and turns it off if it detects that the driver is texting.
Amen to that.
Not to weaken the punch, but how about people who drive with dogs in their laps?
This could get to be quite a long list.
What I’d really like to see is an in-car device that gracefully pulls the car over to the side of the road and turns it off if it detects that the driver is texting.
Amen to that.
Not to weaken the punch, but how about people who drive with dogs in their laps?
This could get to be quite a long list.
Nice try, CharlesWT, but no dice.
Nice try, CharlesWT, but no dice.
Ya’ know, reading some of the comments on this thread reminds me of the time I wasted back in the 90’s reading George Gilder broadsides…. Have they locked him up yet?
I always wondered how someone could be as spectacularly wrong about various things as George was, and yet people kept asking for his opinions.
Ya’ know, reading some of the comments on this thread reminds me of the time I wasted back in the 90’s reading George Gilder broadsides…. Have they locked him up yet?
I always wondered how someone could be as spectacularly wrong about various things as George was, and yet people kept asking for his opinions.
The only time I ever drove in England was in 1997, when I rented a car and traveled…here and there, but never inside London. (Among other reasons, there were IRA bomb threats at that time, and in fact an IRA bomb threat interfered with my arrival, but that’s a separate story.)
The friends I was visiting gave me detailed instructions and warnings about how to negotiate roundabouts by their rules, and I barely saw a traffic light in the couple of weeks I was there.
Now there’s this.
The only time I ever drove in England was in 1997, when I rented a car and traveled…here and there, but never inside London. (Among other reasons, there were IRA bomb threats at that time, and in fact an IRA bomb threat interfered with my arrival, but that’s a separate story.)
The friends I was visiting gave me detailed instructions and warnings about how to negotiate roundabouts by their rules, and I barely saw a traffic light in the couple of weeks I was there.
Now there’s this.
This could get to be quite a long list.
I’m sick of people slicing pastrami while they’re driving. Makes me crazy!
This could get to be quite a long list.
I’m sick of people slicing pastrami while they’re driving. Makes me crazy!
When are they going to make a good self-slicing pastrami?
Speaking of brined meats, what about this poor excuse for an over-the-counter lunchmeat:
https://republicinsanity.tumblr.com/post/114038369768/paul-gosar
Here he goes again, a week after demanding Dreamers be arrested during in situ at the SOTU.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/paul-gosar-nunes-memo-treason
He’s ANOTHER dentist. Are we keeping track of the clinically insane dentists holding public office in this country?
A Tea Party fuck.
When are they going to make a good self-slicing pastrami?
Speaking of brined meats, what about this poor excuse for an over-the-counter lunchmeat:
https://republicinsanity.tumblr.com/post/114038369768/paul-gosar
Here he goes again, a week after demanding Dreamers be arrested during in situ at the SOTU.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/paul-gosar-nunes-memo-treason
He’s ANOTHER dentist. Are we keeping track of the clinically insane dentists holding public office in this country?
A Tea Party fuck.
This could get to be quite a long list.
Woman causes crash shaving bikini area while driving
This could get to be quite a long list.
Woman causes crash shaving bikini area while driving
mp will nominate that woman tomorrow to head up the National Transportation Safety Board because he thought the article said she was providing a “public” service.
That was a prickly situation.
Right on the razor’s edge.
mp will nominate that woman tomorrow to head up the National Transportation Safety Board because he thought the article said she was providing a “public” service.
That was a prickly situation.
Right on the razor’s edge.
what about this poor excuse for an over-the-counter lunchmeat
Were I a (R) holding national office, I would not be in a hurry to get behind the Nunes memo. Even Nunes seems to be holding it at arm’s length.
But, I’m not a (R) holding national office.
Please proceed, (R)’s.
what about this poor excuse for an over-the-counter lunchmeat
Were I a (R) holding national office, I would not be in a hurry to get behind the Nunes memo. Even Nunes seems to be holding it at arm’s length.
But, I’m not a (R) holding national office.
Please proceed, (R)’s.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/2/1738345/-Former-Hippies-Put-in-Horrible-Position-of-Rooting-for-F-B-I-Andy-Borowitz
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/2/1738345/-Former-Hippies-Put-in-Horrible-Position-of-Rooting-for-F-B-I-Andy-Borowitz
In serious countries, during and after the coup, the Hannitys of the world, gathered round the deposed figure in his lair, are flushed out, rounded up and never seen again:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/02/02/hannity-fbis-russia-investigation-attempt-coup-and-attempt-unseat-elected-president/219264
Lucky for Hannity that he lives (he has a funny sort of immigrant name, so I’m not sure about the born-in part) in the fake reality show called America The Full Of Shit, where the deserving never receive the ultimate punishment.
He’d look good on Russian TV, given the anti-American cut of his jib. Defection, Sean. Do it, ya punk.
But you can see that he is priming the base for violent reaction. There are many more acts left in the bloody conservative passion play.
As long as the Republican Party lives, in or out of power, the Republic is in grave danger.
One can only hope.
In serious countries, during and after the coup, the Hannitys of the world, gathered round the deposed figure in his lair, are flushed out, rounded up and never seen again:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/02/02/hannity-fbis-russia-investigation-attempt-coup-and-attempt-unseat-elected-president/219264
Lucky for Hannity that he lives (he has a funny sort of immigrant name, so I’m not sure about the born-in part) in the fake reality show called America The Full Of Shit, where the deserving never receive the ultimate punishment.
He’d look good on Russian TV, given the anti-American cut of his jib. Defection, Sean. Do it, ya punk.
But you can see that he is priming the base for violent reaction. There are many more acts left in the bloody conservative passion play.
As long as the Republican Party lives, in or out of power, the Republic is in grave danger.
One can only hope.
“Woman causes crash shaving bikini area while driving”
Even self-driving cars can’t save us from Florida Woman (or Man). They will rise to the occasion.
“Woman causes crash shaving bikini area while driving”
Even self-driving cars can’t save us from Florida Woman (or Man). They will rise to the occasion.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/02/jeremy-siegel-says-investors-got-too-bullish-and-now-paying-price-we-overdid-it.html?__source=yahoo%7Cfinance%7Cheadline%7Cheadline%7Cstory&par=yahoo&doc=104986175&yptr=yahoo
Figures. OMG, wages are rising.
It’s like when portabella mushrooms finally made the menu at McDonald’s. That fad is over.
Within three years, we’ll be back to republicans telling laid off wage earners to get a fucking job, you leaches. This is what happens when people making nine dollars an hour try to extract, like any decent capitalist, too much inflation out of Paul Ryan.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/02/jeremy-siegel-says-investors-got-too-bullish-and-now-paying-price-we-overdid-it.html?__source=yahoo%7Cfinance%7Cheadline%7Cheadline%7Cstory&par=yahoo&doc=104986175&yptr=yahoo
Figures. OMG, wages are rising.
It’s like when portabella mushrooms finally made the menu at McDonald’s. That fad is over.
Within three years, we’ll be back to republicans telling laid off wage earners to get a fucking job, you leaches. This is what happens when people making nine dollars an hour try to extract, like any decent capitalist, too much inflation out of Paul Ryan.
we’re going to see the 10-year probably go to 3 [percent],'” Siegel said
cats and dogs, living together
we’re going to see the 10-year probably go to 3 [percent],'” Siegel said
cats and dogs, living together
Others have attributed Amazon, et al jumping into healthcare for causing the selloff.
Others have attributed Amazon, et al jumping into healthcare for causing the selloff.
Nah, it’s the backup in interest rates, plus the market became untethered from its fundamental and technical underpinnings and needs some time to revert to the mean.
The 35-year bull market in bonds that began post Volcker in 1982 is over. That’s a sea change.
Oil stocks got killed today too.
Lotta fake news between the top last week and reality.
Doesn’t mean the bull market in stocks is over.
Also, the weekends are now way too suspenseful. Do we embark on the most colossal of constitutional crises or a nuclear strike on North Korea?
Or both for the jackpot. I say they are two peas in the pod. We are in the death grip of pure conservative nationalistic Evil across the globe.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/very-very-bad
Doubt your nightmares. Go ahead. Mine know what’s coming.
Nah, it’s the backup in interest rates, plus the market became untethered from its fundamental and technical underpinnings and needs some time to revert to the mean.
The 35-year bull market in bonds that began post Volcker in 1982 is over. That’s a sea change.
Oil stocks got killed today too.
Lotta fake news between the top last week and reality.
Doesn’t mean the bull market in stocks is over.
Also, the weekends are now way too suspenseful. Do we embark on the most colossal of constitutional crises or a nuclear strike on North Korea?
Or both for the jackpot. I say they are two peas in the pod. We are in the death grip of pure conservative nationalistic Evil across the globe.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/very-very-bad
Doubt your nightmares. Go ahead. Mine know what’s coming.
Do we embark on the most colossal of constitutional crises or a nuclear strike on North Korea?
At a guess, we save making a strike on North Korea until it’s useful for distracting from a constitutional crisis. Or a Presidential indictment. Wouldn’t want to play his hole card too early.
Do we embark on the most colossal of constitutional crises or a nuclear strike on North Korea?
At a guess, we save making a strike on North Korea until it’s useful for distracting from a constitutional crisis. Or a Presidential indictment. Wouldn’t want to play his hole card too early.
https://www.marketwatch.com/video/sectorwatch/how-self-driving-cars-will-learn-to-make-life-or-death-decisions/CCF45FDE-0D8B-49AA-96CA-330324DAB7FF.html
https://www.marketwatch.com/video/sectorwatch/how-self-driving-cars-will-learn-to-make-life-or-death-decisions/CCF45FDE-0D8B-49AA-96CA-330324DAB7FF.html
https://www.marketwatch.com/video/the-robot-revolution-the-new-age-of-manufacturing-moving-upstream/0C3B7686-7D97-4BCE-980B-FAED24F27672.html
https://www.marketwatch.com/video/the-robot-revolution-the-new-age-of-manufacturing-moving-upstream/0C3B7686-7D97-4BCE-980B-FAED24F27672.html
Countme-a-Demon, thanks for the links.
Countme-a-Demon, thanks for the links.
i;m not sure you can solve the trolley problem by “not allowing the car to create an accident”. the trolley in trolley problem hasn’t created the situation it’s in; that happened off-camera. the trolley is simply in the situation, and it has two bad choices.
i;m not sure you can solve the trolley problem by “not allowing the car to create an accident”. the trolley in trolley problem hasn’t created the situation it’s in; that happened off-camera. the trolley is simply in the situation, and it has two bad choices.
I have a different take on the income inequality topic. It seems to me that back in the good old days of my youth (the sixties and seventies) that many things were affordable which are not affordable now and many things were more avialble than they are not and I think the reason is that federal ans state money was spent on things that are not funded now or are not funded at a level comparable to the good old days. I dont know if anyone has done any studies of this or not.
TO give an example: My dad was a college professor. My mother never had to get a paying job. Three kids went through college with no debt. My parents with no particular stress or strain accumulated a very comfortable retirement which included buying waterfront property on the Puget Sound. We were at the lower end of the income range in my home town of Ames Iowa and as far as I could tell the janitor who lived across the street from us had a lifestyle that was not in any visible way different than ours.
What happened?
The county were I live now just lost our animal control officer due to budget cuts. The bus service is limied and expensive for those who use it–that beig the poor who cannot afford to maintain a car. There is a homelss camp on the river in the National forest. The plywood mill was sold and the new management is non union and employees fewer people art lower pay. The down town is nearly dead. There are lots and lots of expensive houses with water views but the najority of residents live in conditions that are Appalacian. many things cost more than it sued to: car licenses, art entry fees–because state revenues are not what they used to be. Many things that used to be funded with fedral money are now funded with limite state money or passed on to be funded by even moe limmited county budgsts.
Ever sense the Reagan years the federal moneys coming into the state have been reduced and at the state level rightwing re venue reductions hve happened ( estate tax eliminated).
What I am suggesting here is that there might be a correlation between tax investment in society and the ability for people to maintain a middle class lifestyle. Is this an issue? If so what will be the long term impact on income inequality of the new deicet created by the tax cuts for the rich law the party of oligarchy just passed?
I have a different take on the income inequality topic. It seems to me that back in the good old days of my youth (the sixties and seventies) that many things were affordable which are not affordable now and many things were more avialble than they are not and I think the reason is that federal ans state money was spent on things that are not funded now or are not funded at a level comparable to the good old days. I dont know if anyone has done any studies of this or not.
TO give an example: My dad was a college professor. My mother never had to get a paying job. Three kids went through college with no debt. My parents with no particular stress or strain accumulated a very comfortable retirement which included buying waterfront property on the Puget Sound. We were at the lower end of the income range in my home town of Ames Iowa and as far as I could tell the janitor who lived across the street from us had a lifestyle that was not in any visible way different than ours.
What happened?
The county were I live now just lost our animal control officer due to budget cuts. The bus service is limied and expensive for those who use it–that beig the poor who cannot afford to maintain a car. There is a homelss camp on the river in the National forest. The plywood mill was sold and the new management is non union and employees fewer people art lower pay. The down town is nearly dead. There are lots and lots of expensive houses with water views but the najority of residents live in conditions that are Appalacian. many things cost more than it sued to: car licenses, art entry fees–because state revenues are not what they used to be. Many things that used to be funded with fedral money are now funded with limite state money or passed on to be funded by even moe limmited county budgsts.
Ever sense the Reagan years the federal moneys coming into the state have been reduced and at the state level rightwing re venue reductions hve happened ( estate tax eliminated).
What I am suggesting here is that there might be a correlation between tax investment in society and the ability for people to maintain a middle class lifestyle. Is this an issue? If so what will be the long term impact on income inequality of the new deicet created by the tax cuts for the rich law the party of oligarchy just passed?
what wonkie said
what wonkie said
I see stuff like this and I just don’t know what to say about it.
If you don’t feel like clicking through, Nunes announced on Fox that he hadn’t actually read the FISA applications that his memo claims are political hatchet jobs.
“These FISA warrants are based on Democratic-funded oppo research and circular reporting!”
“Did you read them?”
“No”
?!?!?!?!?!!??!!?!
It’s like the “fake news” thing with Hoekstra and the Dutch reporter.
Maybe they are trying to break our minds with the sheer bald-facedness of their bullshit. Who knows, it might work.
It’s hilarious in it’s own way, but it’s also toxic, because it defeats any attempt at rational dialog or engagement.
Up is down.
No it’s not.
Yes, it is.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that up is down?
I never said that.
You said it one minute ago.
No I didn’t.
I see stuff like this and I just don’t know what to say about it.
If you don’t feel like clicking through, Nunes announced on Fox that he hadn’t actually read the FISA applications that his memo claims are political hatchet jobs.
“These FISA warrants are based on Democratic-funded oppo research and circular reporting!”
“Did you read them?”
“No”
?!?!?!?!?!!??!!?!
It’s like the “fake news” thing with Hoekstra and the Dutch reporter.
Maybe they are trying to break our minds with the sheer bald-facedness of their bullshit. Who knows, it might work.
It’s hilarious in it’s own way, but it’s also toxic, because it defeats any attempt at rational dialog or engagement.
Up is down.
No it’s not.
Yes, it is.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that up is down?
I never said that.
You said it one minute ago.
No I didn’t.
Russell, consider this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/02/02/devin-nunes-is-acting-like-a-partisan-hack-thats-p-much-how-i-remember-him/
Bear in mind that the author isn’t some flaming liberal. In fact, he’s a tea-party Republican. When he says “partisan hack”, it’s serious.
Russell, consider this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/02/02/devin-nunes-is-acting-like-a-partisan-hack-thats-p-much-how-i-remember-him/
Bear in mind that the author isn’t some flaming liberal. In fact, he’s a tea-party Republican. When he says “partisan hack”, it’s serious.
wonkie,
What happened? The usual. The rich got their lickspittle to reduce their taxes…not once, but several times. This financial edge then compounded over three quarters of a century. Because too many folks were fat and happy, any and all countervailing social institutions or arrangements were undermined via pure political aggression or social neglect.
So here we are.
wonkie,
What happened? The usual. The rich got their lickspittle to reduce their taxes…not once, but several times. This financial edge then compounded over three quarters of a century. Because too many folks were fat and happy, any and all countervailing social institutions or arrangements were undermined via pure political aggression or social neglect.
So here we are.
One has to understand that when you give the rich an edge, they will never be satisfied. There is never enough. You give them more, they will respond by only demanding more.
Blow it up.
One has to understand that when you give the rich an edge, they will never be satisfied. There is never enough. You give them more, they will respond by only demanding more.
Blow it up.
It seems to me that back in the good old days of my youth (the sixties and seventies) that many things were affordable which are not affordable now and many things were more avialble than they are not and I think the reason is that federal ans state money was spent on things that are not funded now or are not funded at a level comparable to the good old days.
I say this regularly: compare a late 1960s state budget and a contemporary state budget and the change jumps out. Today, on the order of two-thirds of the state’s general fund spending is Medicaid and K-12 education. Both started showing up in the late 1960s. Medicaid because the states adopted it, and K-12 spending in the form of “equalization” funds. The latter recognized that poor districts (rural and some urban core) couldn’t levy high enough property taxes to fund contemporary public school programs. In my state, the poorest districts get ~80% of their budget from the state, but all the districts are dependent on that state money.
The politics of the Big Six general fund spending categories are such that higher ed and transportation take the lion’s share of the cuts when the budget is tight.
It seems to me that back in the good old days of my youth (the sixties and seventies) that many things were affordable which are not affordable now and many things were more avialble than they are not and I think the reason is that federal ans state money was spent on things that are not funded now or are not funded at a level comparable to the good old days.
I say this regularly: compare a late 1960s state budget and a contemporary state budget and the change jumps out. Today, on the order of two-thirds of the state’s general fund spending is Medicaid and K-12 education. Both started showing up in the late 1960s. Medicaid because the states adopted it, and K-12 spending in the form of “equalization” funds. The latter recognized that poor districts (rural and some urban core) couldn’t levy high enough property taxes to fund contemporary public school programs. In my state, the poorest districts get ~80% of their budget from the state, but all the districts are dependent on that state money.
The politics of the Big Six general fund spending categories are such that higher ed and transportation take the lion’s share of the cuts when the budget is tight.
I see stuff like this and I just don’t know what to say about it.
if you have the stomach for it, go take a look a Breitbart’s front page.
they’re selling the Nunes memo as if it proves every harebrained conspiracy that the right was able to dream up over the last 10 years. and the audience believes every word of it.
IMO, the whole memo is just fan service. the GOP is keeping the rubies riled because they need the whole team, rube to representative, on board when Trump gets round to really interfering in the Mueller investigation.
I see stuff like this and I just don’t know what to say about it.
if you have the stomach for it, go take a look a Breitbart’s front page.
they’re selling the Nunes memo as if it proves every harebrained conspiracy that the right was able to dream up over the last 10 years. and the audience believes every word of it.
IMO, the whole memo is just fan service. the GOP is keeping the rubies riled because they need the whole team, rube to representative, on board when Trump gets round to really interfering in the Mueller investigation.
David Dayen on wages, the Dow, and tangentially “how stuff used to be”.
My household income includes, at this point, a significant amount of return on equity investment. I’m only a few years from
retirement and, by far, the bulk of my retirement income is going to come from the same source.
Describing a 2% drop in the Dow as “tumbling” seems, to me, more than overwrought. If a modest decline in the value of my retirement nest egg is the price for people getting paid enough to live on, I’m fine with it. My wife and I will muddle through somehow. Lucky us, we have enough that it’s something that even affects us, assuming it does.
The focus on the Dow and other financial markets as the be-all-end-all measure of “how the economy is doing” is just nuts.
It’s about time some of the great heaping piles of money the US economy generates is making its way to the people who do the work. May that trend continue and accelerate.
David Dayen on wages, the Dow, and tangentially “how stuff used to be”.
My household income includes, at this point, a significant amount of return on equity investment. I’m only a few years from
retirement and, by far, the bulk of my retirement income is going to come from the same source.
Describing a 2% drop in the Dow as “tumbling” seems, to me, more than overwrought. If a modest decline in the value of my retirement nest egg is the price for people getting paid enough to live on, I’m fine with it. My wife and I will muddle through somehow. Lucky us, we have enough that it’s something that even affects us, assuming it does.
The focus on the Dow and other financial markets as the be-all-end-all measure of “how the economy is doing” is just nuts.
It’s about time some of the great heaping piles of money the US economy generates is making its way to the people who do the work. May that trend continue and accelerate.
The focus on the Dow and other financial markets as the be-all-end-all measure of “how the economy is doing” is just nuts.
Too true. Mutch of the stock price run-up could be due to stocks being the current target of cheap money.
The focus on the Dow and other financial markets as the be-all-end-all measure of “how the economy is doing” is just nuts.
Too true. Mutch of the stock price run-up could be due to stocks being the current target of cheap money.
…Mutch…
Guess my cap is too tight…
…Mutch…
Guess my cap is too tight…
IIRC there was a French guy that wrote a big book about the wage/capital issues of the OP. Pritky? Prissy? Something like that.
Might be worth a read.
IIRC there was a French guy that wrote a big book about the wage/capital issues of the OP. Pritky? Prissy? Something like that.
Might be worth a read.
Thomas Piketty
Some of his data and conclusions have encountered some pretty heavy criticism in various venues.
Thomas Piketty
Some of his data and conclusions have encountered some pretty heavy criticism in various venues.
K-12 spending in the form of “equalization” funds. The latter recognized that poor districts (rural and some urban core) couldn’t levy high enough property taxes to fund contemporary public school programs.
Or, in the case of California, because someone convinced the voters (in the 1960s) to place severe limits statewide on property taxes. So even a relatively wealthy school district couldn’t vote to tax itself sufficiently to fund schools.
K-12 spending in the form of “equalization” funds. The latter recognized that poor districts (rural and some urban core) couldn’t levy high enough property taxes to fund contemporary public school programs.
Or, in the case of California, because someone convinced the voters (in the 1960s) to place severe limits statewide on property taxes. So even a relatively wealthy school district couldn’t vote to tax itself sufficiently to fund schools.
….due to stocks being the current target of cheap money.
Or that corporations are awash in funds they can find no lucrative investment outlet for, and they spend it buying back shares. The problem is too much of that “cheap money” is in the hands of a few.
….due to stocks being the current target of cheap money.
Or that corporations are awash in funds they can find no lucrative investment outlet for, and they spend it buying back shares. The problem is too much of that “cheap money” is in the hands of a few.
Or, in the case of California, because someone convinced the voters (in the 1960s) to place severe limits statewide on property taxes.
Colorado as well. Politicians and voters at that time, in all sorts of places, decided that they weren’t going to push the elderly on fixed incomes out of their paid-for suburban housing into rental housing that they would also be priced out of eventually.
If we’re in a “blame the Boomers” mood, yeah, it was the Boomers deciding that their parents ought to be able to keep their houses.
Or, in the case of California, because someone convinced the voters (in the 1960s) to place severe limits statewide on property taxes.
Colorado as well. Politicians and voters at that time, in all sorts of places, decided that they weren’t going to push the elderly on fixed incomes out of their paid-for suburban housing into rental housing that they would also be priced out of eventually.
If we’re in a “blame the Boomers” mood, yeah, it was the Boomers deciding that their parents ought to be able to keep their houses.
If they had limited the freeze on property taxes to those who had retired, that would have been a different story. But by applying it to everybody, what they did (besides starving schools, of course) was massively reduce mobility — because people couldn’t afford to move, which would result in an abrupt property tax increase.
Of course, while Prop 13 was SOLD as being about pushing the elderly out of their homes, that wasn’t the real motivation. It was actually just an early manifestation of the “starve the beast” approach to crippling any and all government.
Oh yes, and it wasn’t Boomers that pushed it thru. We just weren’t that big a segment of the voting population at that point. (I routinely voted even then. But I was very much the exception.)
If they had limited the freeze on property taxes to those who had retired, that would have been a different story. But by applying it to everybody, what they did (besides starving schools, of course) was massively reduce mobility — because people couldn’t afford to move, which would result in an abrupt property tax increase.
Of course, while Prop 13 was SOLD as being about pushing the elderly out of their homes, that wasn’t the real motivation. It was actually just an early manifestation of the “starve the beast” approach to crippling any and all government.
Oh yes, and it wasn’t Boomers that pushed it thru. We just weren’t that big a segment of the voting population at that point. (I routinely voted even then. But I was very much the exception.)
If we’re in a “blame the Boomers” mood
no worries, we’ll all be gone soon
If we’re in a “blame the Boomers” mood
no worries, we’ll all be gone soon
no worries, we’ll all be gone soon
Speak for yourself. I have gone out of my way to set my children up, far more than my parents were able to do for me. I fully intend to live long enough to be a burden :^)
no worries, we’ll all be gone soon
Speak for yourself. I have gone out of my way to set my children up, far more than my parents were able to do for me. I fully intend to live long enough to be a burden :^)
well done.
my step-son is a musician. my wife and i are on our own.
well done.
my step-son is a musician. my wife and i are on our own.
OT-ish, but let’s face it, all ObWi threads are open threads.
from the annals of fiscal responsibility.
the new tax regime was reflected in my most recent paycheck. looks like i’m on track to take home about another $3500 this year.
i don’t want it.
the (R)’s are coming for the entitlements. it won’t be front and center this year, because mid-terms. if they hold a majority in either or both houses of congress, it will be front and center next year.
the national debt will be the lever.
Paul Ryan will lead the charge. other than summer jobs and a stint as “marketing consultant” for the family business, his entire career has been in politics and/or government. his college education was paid for in part with SS survivor benefits.
but he feels we all need the goad of potential dire poverty to help us to be our best selves. ayn rand and milton friedman told him so.
OT-ish, but let’s face it, all ObWi threads are open threads.
from the annals of fiscal responsibility.
the new tax regime was reflected in my most recent paycheck. looks like i’m on track to take home about another $3500 this year.
i don’t want it.
the (R)’s are coming for the entitlements. it won’t be front and center this year, because mid-terms. if they hold a majority in either or both houses of congress, it will be front and center next year.
the national debt will be the lever.
Paul Ryan will lead the charge. other than summer jobs and a stint as “marketing consultant” for the family business, his entire career has been in politics and/or government. his college education was paid for in part with SS survivor benefits.
but he feels we all need the goad of potential dire poverty to help us to be our best selves. ayn rand and milton friedman told him so.
i don’t want it.
I can post my PayPal link…
i don’t want it.
I can post my PayPal link…
Here is a view of the lack of growth of real wages (of “production workers”, from the BLS) which I have been showing for years. There is no need to get into derivative measures, even productivity, to show how wages have not kept up with production since around 1973, and how economic growth has been going almost entirely to upper incomes.
http://www.skeptometrics.org/BLSB8.PNG
One of the ways that workers should be benefiting from increasing productivity – which actually equates to automation – is through reduced hours. The standard work week of 40 hours has decreased only slightly since 1937. This is not a good thing. Overall hours worked should be decreasing, not increasing – why should everyone be slaving away to produce stuff we don’t have time to take advantage of?
Here is a view of the lack of growth of real wages (of “production workers”, from the BLS) which I have been showing for years. There is no need to get into derivative measures, even productivity, to show how wages have not kept up with production since around 1973, and how economic growth has been going almost entirely to upper incomes.
http://www.skeptometrics.org/BLSB8.PNG
One of the ways that workers should be benefiting from increasing productivity – which actually equates to automation – is through reduced hours. The standard work week of 40 hours has decreased only slightly since 1937. This is not a good thing. Overall hours worked should be decreasing, not increasing – why should everyone be slaving away to produce stuff we don’t have time to take advantage of?
The standard work week of 40 hours has decreased only slightly since 1937
LOL.
I don’t think I’ve worked a 40 hour week in 20 years.
Meanwhile, self-driving cars again.
Watch your wallets, America.
The standard work week of 40 hours has decreased only slightly since 1937
LOL.
I don’t think I’ve worked a 40 hour week in 20 years.
Meanwhile, self-driving cars again.
Watch your wallets, America.
Howard Jarvis was born in 1903.
Ronald Reagan in 1911.
Arthur Laffer is 77 years old, not a baby boomer.
Their noxious spawn:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/02/03/repub-venality-open-thread-paul-ryan-is-not-a-serious-person/
Yes, he is. He is this kind of serious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c
Grover Norquist is a baby boomer. The baby is not safe around him.
The conservative movement is a multi-generational killer.
Howard Jarvis was born in 1903.
Ronald Reagan in 1911.
Arthur Laffer is 77 years old, not a baby boomer.
Their noxious spawn:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/02/03/repub-venality-open-thread-paul-ryan-is-not-a-serious-person/
Yes, he is. He is this kind of serious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c
Grover Norquist is a baby boomer. The baby is not safe around him.
The conservative movement is a multi-generational killer.
Watch your wallets, America.
After bankrupting the taxi companies, they just want their turn in the regulatory sun.
Watch your wallets, America.
After bankrupting the taxi companies, they just want their turn in the regulatory sun.
Watch your wallets, America.
This.
Dad: You’ll eat your peas and you’ll like ’em.
Spanky: I’ll eat ’em, but I won’t like ’em.
We’re about to have self-driving cars whether we like ’em or not. It’s not up to us, it’s up to the people who are going to rake their profits out of our wallets, directly or via the taxes we’ll pay to redesign the entire infrastructure of our landscape for their purposes, just like we did for automobiles in the first place.
I keep imagining dedicated lanes for AVs of whatever kind in and around Boston….what a hoot. Where are they going to put ’em…across the rooftops?
Watch your wallets, America.
This.
Dad: You’ll eat your peas and you’ll like ’em.
Spanky: I’ll eat ’em, but I won’t like ’em.
We’re about to have self-driving cars whether we like ’em or not. It’s not up to us, it’s up to the people who are going to rake their profits out of our wallets, directly or via the taxes we’ll pay to redesign the entire infrastructure of our landscape for their purposes, just like we did for automobiles in the first place.
I keep imagining dedicated lanes for AVs of whatever kind in and around Boston….what a hoot. Where are they going to put ’em…across the rooftops?
a legal monopoly is every capitalist’s dream.
a legal monopoly is every capitalist’s dream.
Ryan is now referring to the act of taking away medical care for the poor in America as “fulfillment”.
He is one sick fuck. The Deepak Chopra of down-punching sadism. The Maharishi of monstrous malevolence.
And cheerfully so.
By fulfillment, Ryan means the
feeling he experienced when he very personally got the pages of “Atlas Shrugged” stuck together, his copy paid for with SS survivor benefits.
That book has centerfolds only visible to pigfuckers.
He can no longer even open the pages of Rand’s “The Virtues of Selfishness”.
He smiles when he helps you down the stairs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oesSyvh76g
Ryan is now referring to the act of taking away medical care for the poor in America as “fulfillment”.
He is one sick fuck. The Deepak Chopra of down-punching sadism. The Maharishi of monstrous malevolence.
And cheerfully so.
By fulfillment, Ryan means the
feeling he experienced when he very personally got the pages of “Atlas Shrugged” stuck together, his copy paid for with SS survivor benefits.
That book has centerfolds only visible to pigfuckers.
He can no longer even open the pages of Rand’s “The Virtues of Selfishness”.
He smiles when he helps you down the stairs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oesSyvh76g
Where are they going to put ’em…across the rooftops?
They’ll rebuild the central artery.
Where are they going to put ’em…across the rooftops?
They’ll rebuild the central artery.
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/in-shocker-deficit-explodes-yet-again-under-republican-rule/
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/in-shocker-deficit-explodes-yet-again-under-republican-rule/
They’ll rebuild the central artery.
They can call it “The Even Bigger Dig.”
They’ll rebuild the central artery.
They can call it “The Even Bigger Dig.”
I so hope this happens:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/30/trump-reportedly-talking-about-having-sessions-prosecute-mueller.html?recirc=taboolainternal
America is coming to a savagely violent end.
I so hope this happens:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/30/trump-reportedly-talking-about-having-sessions-prosecute-mueller.html?recirc=taboolainternal
America is coming to a savagely violent end.
He also pocketed the weekly buck fifty for himself:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ryan-celebrates-school-secretarys-1-50-a-week-pay-raise-from-tax-bill
He also pocketed the weekly buck fifty for himself:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ryan-celebrates-school-secretarys-1-50-a-week-pay-raise-from-tax-bill
“Ryan is now referring to the act of taking away medical care for the poor in America as “fulfillment”.”
Ryan and McConnell and McCain in his warmongering moments are in different ways the creepiest people in politics. Trump is unique in his own bad way, but he seems so mentally off that if he weren’t the most powerful man on the planet I would feel sorry for him. I think of him as a puppet, not of Putin ( his foreign policy would be less neocon if Putin controlled him), but of whoever is the latest person to feed his narcissism. Ryan and company are just nasty ideologues.
“Ryan is now referring to the act of taking away medical care for the poor in America as “fulfillment”.”
Ryan and McConnell and McCain in his warmongering moments are in different ways the creepiest people in politics. Trump is unique in his own bad way, but he seems so mentally off that if he weren’t the most powerful man on the planet I would feel sorry for him. I think of him as a puppet, not of Putin ( his foreign policy would be less neocon if Putin controlled him), but of whoever is the latest person to feed his narcissism. Ryan and company are just nasty ideologues.
“The Deepak Chopra of down-punching sadism. The Maharishi of monstrous malevolence.
And cheerfully so.”
Love it
“The Deepak Chopra of down-punching sadism. The Maharishi of monstrous malevolence.
And cheerfully so.”
Love it
Just in time for this thread:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/02/political-history-future-autonomous-annalee-newitz
Just in time for this thread:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/02/political-history-future-autonomous-annalee-newitz
Ryan and company are just nasty ideologues.
The ideology itself is profoundly nasty. IMO.
Maybe it attracts people who are already nasty, maybe it makes otherwise reasonable people nasty via some kind of mental osmosis. Maybe both.
Either way, if your view of the world and other people is based on radical selfishness, it’s not gonna go anywhere good.
IMVHO.
Most folks who dabble in it grow out of it. Some don’t.
Ryan and company are just nasty ideologues.
The ideology itself is profoundly nasty. IMO.
Maybe it attracts people who are already nasty, maybe it makes otherwise reasonable people nasty via some kind of mental osmosis. Maybe both.
Either way, if your view of the world and other people is based on radical selfishness, it’s not gonna go anywhere good.
IMVHO.
Most folks who dabble in it grow out of it. Some don’t.
I keep imagining dedicated lanes for AVs of whatever kind in and around Boston….what a hoot. Where are they going to put ’em…across the rooftops?
Around here, they just take away one of the existing freeway lanes when they want to add a toll** (or, previously, HOV) lane. This also makes traffic on all the other lanes much worse. Thus, it is hoped, encouraging car pooling. A similar approach ought to work for AV lanes.
** For those on the East Coast, where toll roads are common, I should perhaps note that they are a novelty in the West. Here, we tend to the theory that, if a road is build using tax dollars, it shouldn’t charge for use. We also get better traffic flow from not repeatedly slowing down for toll plazas. (Don’t have to carry piles of change on the car either..
I keep imagining dedicated lanes for AVs of whatever kind in and around Boston….what a hoot. Where are they going to put ’em…across the rooftops?
Around here, they just take away one of the existing freeway lanes when they want to add a toll** (or, previously, HOV) lane. This also makes traffic on all the other lanes much worse. Thus, it is hoped, encouraging car pooling. A similar approach ought to work for AV lanes.
** For those on the East Coast, where toll roads are common, I should perhaps note that they are a novelty in the West. Here, we tend to the theory that, if a road is build using tax dollars, it shouldn’t charge for use. We also get better traffic flow from not repeatedly slowing down for toll plazas. (Don’t have to carry piles of change on the car either..
wj, you don’t have to carry piles of change now. I had the distinct pleasure of driving from ATL to CHI just before Christmas. There’s a stretch of toll roads right around Indianapolis (if I’m remembering correctly) where you don’t stop to pay at a toll booth; in fact there aren’t any toll booths. Presumably local drivers pre-pay the tolls, and if you aren’t a local driver you get a bill in the mail about a month after you’ve driven through there. The bill had a snapshot of my car tag printed right on it.
By the way, there was no practical route through that area that didn’t involve driving on a toll road.
wj, you don’t have to carry piles of change now. I had the distinct pleasure of driving from ATL to CHI just before Christmas. There’s a stretch of toll roads right around Indianapolis (if I’m remembering correctly) where you don’t stop to pay at a toll booth; in fact there aren’t any toll booths. Presumably local drivers pre-pay the tolls, and if you aren’t a local driver you get a bill in the mail about a month after you’ve driven through there. The bill had a snapshot of my car tag printed right on it.
By the way, there was no practical route through that area that didn’t involve driving on a toll road.
She mourns cheerfully at the Republican family cemetery plot. There is still room for her, and the rest of them. Silver stakes thru their blood pumping apparatus and salt packing their mouths for the lot of them.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/02/not-your-grandfathers-mccarthyism.html
She mourns cheerfully at the Republican family cemetery plot. There is still room for her, and the rest of them. Silver stakes thru their blood pumping apparatus and salt packing their mouths for the lot of them.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/02/not-your-grandfathers-mccarthyism.html
Around here, they just take away one of the existing freeway lanes when they want to add a toll** (or, previously, HOV) lane. This also makes traffic on all the other lanes much worse. Thus, it is hoped, encouraging car pooling. A similar approach ought to work for AV lanes.
Since this is a response to my snark about Boston, I have to ask: wj, have you ever actually driven in Boston? Or even seen it?
Echoing chmatl: The Mass. Pike removed toll booths a year or so ago. If you don’t have E-ZPass, they mail you a bill. Ditto some of the bridges around Boston (maybe all the toll ones; I don’t drive down there if I can help it, so it’s been a while). I-95 north through NH and into Maine has lanes where you can just keep driving if you have EZPass. No piles of change required.
Around here, they just take away one of the existing freeway lanes when they want to add a toll** (or, previously, HOV) lane. This also makes traffic on all the other lanes much worse. Thus, it is hoped, encouraging car pooling. A similar approach ought to work for AV lanes.
Since this is a response to my snark about Boston, I have to ask: wj, have you ever actually driven in Boston? Or even seen it?
Echoing chmatl: The Mass. Pike removed toll booths a year or so ago. If you don’t have E-ZPass, they mail you a bill. Ditto some of the bridges around Boston (maybe all the toll ones; I don’t drive down there if I can help it, so it’s been a while). I-95 north through NH and into Maine has lanes where you can just keep driving if you have EZPass. No piles of change required.
More on financial markets:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bond-markets-debt-ceiling-alarm-050100275.html
More on financial markets:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bond-markets-debt-ceiling-alarm-050100275.html
NC has a single toll road, which i take every day. it’s all electronic tolls – no booths anywhere. and it works with EZ Pass and transponders from SC, GA, and FL.
the deal was : we’ll build it now but it will have to be a toll road. or, you can wait a decade or so while we save up enough money.
NC has a single toll road, which i take every day. it’s all electronic tolls – no booths anywhere. and it works with EZ Pass and transponders from SC, GA, and FL.
the deal was : we’ll build it now but it will have to be a toll road. or, you can wait a decade or so while we save up enough money.
Yes, I have driven in Boston. (Although I confess it was quite some time ago.) Also drove from thete down to DC and back. Obviously the experience made an impression. 🤔
Yes, I have driven in Boston. (Although I confess it was quite some time ago.) Also drove from thete down to DC and back. Obviously the experience made an impression. 🤔
Glad to here that the toll roads have move past change piles.
Glad to here that the toll roads have move past change piles.
Drove through much of the East Coast twice over the last few years via rental car. Did not have E-ZPass. Received a few bills for tolls months later from the rental company.
There are still plenty of toll booths with breeze-through E-ZPass lanes and cash and credit card lanes.
Drove through much of the East Coast twice over the last few years via rental car. Did not have E-ZPass. Received a few bills for tolls months later from the rental company.
There are still plenty of toll booths with breeze-through E-ZPass lanes and cash and credit card lanes.
https://crooksandliars.com/2018/02/arizona-gop-rep-demands-treason-charges
I demand treason charges against Gosar and his family.
The sentence should be of the North Korean variety — truss him up on a football field and shoot him at close range with an anti-aircraft weapon.
Have the leaders of the NRA view the execution as a preview to their fates.
https://crooksandliars.com/2018/02/arizona-gop-rep-demands-treason-charges
I demand treason charges against Gosar and his family.
The sentence should be of the North Korean variety — truss him up on a football field and shoot him at close range with an anti-aircraft weapon.
Have the leaders of the NRA view the execution as a preview to their fates.
These last 30 years, it’s always the same subhuman vermin. Christopher Ruddy now:
https://crooksandliars.com/2018/02/newsmax-ceo-thinks-trump-should-pull?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=idealmedia&utm_campaign=crooksandliars.com&utm_term=68739&utm_content=1
As long as right-wingers remain among the living, and they seem to have the lifespans of Dracula, the Republic is in danger.
These last 30 years, it’s always the same subhuman vermin. Christopher Ruddy now:
https://crooksandliars.com/2018/02/newsmax-ceo-thinks-trump-should-pull?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=idealmedia&utm_campaign=crooksandliars.com&utm_term=68739&utm_content=1
As long as right-wingers remain among the living, and they seem to have the lifespans of Dracula, the Republic is in danger.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/donald-trump-jr-memos-release-is-sweet-revenge-for-his-family-2018-02-04?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYnRBX2Trtk
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/donald-trump-jr-memos-release-is-sweet-revenge-for-his-family-2018-02-04?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYnRBX2Trtk
I’m still with Keillor:
http://www.garrisonkeillor.com/response-to-jon-mctaggart/
I suspect, with no evidence in fact-free clown-fake-fucking America, that the vermin republican party is behind these accusations.
I’m still with Keillor:
http://www.garrisonkeillor.com/response-to-jon-mctaggart/
I suspect, with no evidence in fact-free clown-fake-fucking America, that the vermin republican party is behind these accusations.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/asian-markets-pull-back-following-wall-streets-friday-flop-2018-02-04?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Key takaway:
“The U.S. has had a booming job market for so long that wage increases shouldn’t be unexpected, said Stefan Hofer, chief investment strategist at LGT Bank Asia. However, “the speed of the increase that has caught the market by surprise,” he said.’
Really?
We’ve noted CEO pay and the top 1% pay diverging exponentially and at warp speed for years now. Hofer himself must have noticed the speed at which his compensation, given his position, has increased over the years.
Not a hint of surprise on his selfie career face.
The “surprise”, to fucks, now is the middle class and low-wage workers picking up a few crumbs from the slow drip of employers finally experiencing a shortage of labor.
And this:
http://fortune.com/2017/12/20/minimum-wage-increases-jan-2018/
SURPRISE!!
republicans can’t wait to get back to 9% unemployment so that can tell their lessers to get a fucking job.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/asian-markets-pull-back-following-wall-streets-friday-flop-2018-02-04?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Key takaway:
“The U.S. has had a booming job market for so long that wage increases shouldn’t be unexpected, said Stefan Hofer, chief investment strategist at LGT Bank Asia. However, “the speed of the increase that has caught the market by surprise,” he said.’
Really?
We’ve noted CEO pay and the top 1% pay diverging exponentially and at warp speed for years now. Hofer himself must have noticed the speed at which his compensation, given his position, has increased over the years.
Not a hint of surprise on his selfie career face.
The “surprise”, to fucks, now is the middle class and low-wage workers picking up a few crumbs from the slow drip of employers finally experiencing a shortage of labor.
And this:
http://fortune.com/2017/12/20/minimum-wage-increases-jan-2018/
SURPRISE!!
republicans can’t wait to get back to 9% unemployment so that can tell their lessers to get a fucking job.
Reading Neil Postman’s “Amusing Ourselves To Death”, a companion piece to the movie “Network”.
Chapter 4, “The Typographic Mind” explains all, much like Richard Hofstadter’s essays explain all about today’s republican party.
Here’s Postman on technology and so-called autonomy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlrv7DIHllE
Bit of a slog. Haven’t finished it myself, but will tomorrow.
Reading Neil Postman’s “Amusing Ourselves To Death”, a companion piece to the movie “Network”.
Chapter 4, “The Typographic Mind” explains all, much like Richard Hofstadter’s essays explain all about today’s republican party.
Here’s Postman on technology and so-called autonomy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlrv7DIHllE
Bit of a slog. Haven’t finished it myself, but will tomorrow.
Foxconn is also aggressively replacing employees with robots…
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Foxconn-unit-to-cut-over-10-000-jobs-as-robotics-take-over
Foxconn is also aggressively replacing employees with robots…
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Foxconn-unit-to-cut-over-10-000-jobs-as-robotics-take-over