Ur American Sh1thole Values NFL Open Thread

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by Ugh

More Trump because why not? Eh. I've seen responses to the latest sharted eruption from POTUS saying that it "does not represent American values," to which my response of late is "Are you sure?" Almost 63 million people voted for this waste. There is a long history of American racism in immigration (and obviously other) matters that continues to this day, apparently. So, who are we kidding? 

Meanwhile, the GOP is in all in on doing everything they can to deny African Americans the ability to vote. Full stop, not even pretending anymore. "Party of Lincoln" GFY.

Anyway, all is full game here. Rooting for a Pats-Vikings Superbowl here in suddenly balmy DC. I recommend Belize for a visit. The Southern Reach Trilogy was interesting and different, but not sure I'd recommend it.

Fire away.

1,382 thoughts on “Ur American Sh1thole Values NFL Open Thread”

  1. And it would have been so easy to avoid the “racism!” accusation. Just include Britain in the list — after all, it’s bad enough that he was moved to cancel his trip there….

  2. And it would have been so easy to avoid the “racism!” accusation. Just include Britain in the list — after all, it’s bad enough that he was moved to cancel his trip there….

  5. The Southern Reach Trilogy was interesting and different, but not sure I’d recommend it.
    it wasn’t my favorite of VanderMeer’s. but, i remain a loyal fan.

  6. The Southern Reach Trilogy was interesting and different, but not sure I’d recommend it.
    it wasn’t my favorite of VanderMeer’s. but, i remain a loyal fan.

  9. maybe check out one of his short story collections: Secret Life, Secret Lives and The Third Bear.
    Borne was good, especially if you get the additional stories (Komodo, Strange Bird).
    i really liked his City Of Saints And Madmen, too. though that’s maybe an advanced read.
    but i do think i like him more for his dazzling worlds maybe more than the actual stories.

  10. maybe check out one of his short story collections: Secret Life, Secret Lives and The Third Bear.
    Borne was good, especially if you get the additional stories (Komodo, Strange Bird).
    i really liked his City Of Saints And Madmen, too. though that’s maybe an advanced read.
    but i do think i like him more for his dazzling worlds maybe more than the actual stories.

  13. I was shocked to find Amish there.
    totally.
    i had no idea they were there until i saw them.
    i was in Belize in 2000 (?). we stayed on La Isla Bonita Ambergris Caye, in a house about a mile from San Pedro. it was a lot of fun until we all got food poisoning.
    we did a day trip inland to see some Mayan ruins – hour on a boat, hour on a bus, another hour on a different boat. on the way we saw some Amish/Mennonites/whatevs hanging out on the river. they zipped away as soon as they saw us coming, not before i could take some pix, though!

  14. I was shocked to find Amish there.
    totally.
    i had no idea they were there until i saw them.
    i was in Belize in 2000 (?). we stayed on La Isla Bonita Ambergris Caye, in a house about a mile from San Pedro. it was a lot of fun until we all got food poisoning.
    we did a day trip inland to see some Mayan ruins – hour on a boat, hour on a bus, another hour on a different boat. on the way we saw some Amish/Mennonites/whatevs hanging out on the river. they zipped away as soon as they saw us coming, not before i could take some pix, though!

  17. Devil Hen is from Amish country in PA … her comment upon stumbling upon them in Belize: “I can’t escape these ****ers”.

  18. Devil Hen is from Amish country in PA … her comment upon stumbling upon them in Belize: “I can’t escape these ****ers”.

  19. There’s actually an Amish market about 15 minutes from me in South Jersey. It’s awesome (not meant sarcastically).

  20. There’s actually an Amish market about 15 minutes from me in South Jersey. It’s awesome (not meant sarcastically).

  21. if we ever get a really serious electromagnetic solar event, the Amish will rule the world.
    we’ll all be growing beards and wearing funny hats then.

  22. if we ever get a really serious electromagnetic solar event, the Amish will rule the world.
    we’ll all be growing beards and wearing funny hats then.

  23. Well at least we can take comfort from the fact that Mr Trump has “a very good relationship with Kim Jong Un,” He says so himself, so it must be true. (I do wonder if Mr Kim is aware….)

  24. Well at least we can take comfort from the fact that Mr Trump has “a very good relationship with Kim Jong Un,” He says so himself, so it must be true. (I do wonder if Mr Kim is aware….)

  25. wj, in the previous thread, referring to these:
    Michael, those are some cool maps! Any chance they are commercially available? (Not that I have time to play with them at the moment. But I can always bookmark the page, against the day I do.)
    Not prior to this. I suppose I could generate really big PDF versions and have them printed. Or just send the files to you. I’ve been thinking in terms of giving the software away, or a little web-based service (submit your data, get a modest-sized image file back). The Worldmapper folks have lots of prepared cartograms available.

  26. wj, in the previous thread, referring to these:
    Michael, those are some cool maps! Any chance they are commercially available? (Not that I have time to play with them at the moment. But I can always bookmark the page, against the day I do.)
    Not prior to this. I suppose I could generate really big PDF versions and have them printed. Or just send the files to you. I’ve been thinking in terms of giving the software away, or a little web-based service (submit your data, get a modest-sized image file back). The Worldmapper folks have lots of prepared cartograms available.

  27. @cleek:”Amish/Mennonites/whatevs hanging out on the river. they zipped away as soon as they saw us coming”
    They were probably illegals.

  28. @cleek:”Amish/Mennonites/whatevs hanging out on the river. they zipped away as soon as they saw us coming”
    They were probably illegals.

  29. we’ll all be growing beards and wearing funny hats then.
    You mean your aren’t already? Did I jump the gun?

  30. we’ll all be growing beards and wearing funny hats then.
    You mean your aren’t already? Did I jump the gun?

  31. From today’s FiveThirtyEight Riddler Express:
    Choose three points on a circle at random and connect them to form a triangle. What is the probability that the center of the circle is contained in that triangle?
    I say 7/8 after thinking about it for 5 seconds. What do you think?

  32. From today’s FiveThirtyEight Riddler Express:
    Choose three points on a circle at random and connect them to form a triangle. What is the probability that the center of the circle is contained in that triangle?
    I say 7/8 after thinking about it for 5 seconds. What do you think?

  35. You mean your aren’t already? Did I jump the gun?
    I’ve grown sideburns this winter — something between John Quincy Adams and a badly-aging Sabretooth. Hair’s getting thin enough that I need to think about wearing a hat outdoors in the summer, but I’ve been leaning more Indiana Jones than Amish.

  36. You mean your aren’t already? Did I jump the gun?
    I’ve grown sideburns this winter — something between John Quincy Adams and a badly-aging Sabretooth. Hair’s getting thin enough that I need to think about wearing a hat outdoors in the summer, but I’ve been leaning more Indiana Jones than Amish.

  45. After about a minute, I’m guessing 1/3.
    Certainly less than 1/2. WLOG, place the first point arbitrarily. Draw the diameter that includes that point. If the two other points both fall on the same side of that line (probability 1/2), the center is not included in the triangle. And there are also combinations where the points are on opposite sides of that line where the triangle doesn’t include the center.
    I can see a fuzzy picture in my head and could write an integral from that, but can’t do it in my head.

  46. After about a minute, I’m guessing 1/3.
    Certainly less than 1/2. WLOG, place the first point arbitrarily. Draw the diameter that includes that point. If the two other points both fall on the same side of that line (probability 1/2), the center is not included in the triangle. And there are also combinations where the points are on opposite sides of that line where the triangle doesn’t include the center.
    I can see a fuzzy picture in my head and could write an integral from that, but can’t do it in my head.

  47. I’ll go with 1/2 (just hair under, if you exclude cases where the center is right on the edge of the triangle).
    Rotate the circle so the first point is at the top. Put the second point anywhere along the left side of the circle. For the center to be inside the triangle, the third point has to be on the right side, and closer to the bottom than the second point is to the top. Which nets to 1/2 of the cases.
    The odds are identical when the second and third flip sides. So that doesn’t change the overall odds.

  48. I’ll go with 1/2 (just hair under, if you exclude cases where the center is right on the edge of the triangle).
    Rotate the circle so the first point is at the top. Put the second point anywhere along the left side of the circle. For the center to be inside the triangle, the third point has to be on the right side, and closer to the bottom than the second point is to the top. Which nets to 1/2 of the cases.
    The odds are identical when the second and third flip sides. So that doesn’t change the overall odds.

  53. Pick a point, any point, A, on the circle. Pick a 2nd point B at random. How far around the circle is it? At most, halfway around; on average, 1/4 of the way around.
    How much of the circle can the 3rd point be on, to define a triangle that includes the center?
    Simple: 1/4 of the circumference — the quadrant opposite the 1st two points.
    So, 1/4 is the answer.
    –TP

  54. Pick a point, any point, A, on the circle. Pick a 2nd point B at random. How far around the circle is it? At most, halfway around; on average, 1/4 of the way around.
    How much of the circle can the 3rd point be on, to define a triangle that includes the center?
    Simple: 1/4 of the circumference — the quadrant opposite the 1st two points.
    So, 1/4 is the answer.
    –TP

  55. we’ll all be growing beards and wearing funny hats then.
    No big deal. It was good enough for my grandfather.
    The German word heimisch, which my dictionary says means “native,” or “indigenous,” comes out in Yiddish as meaning something like “down-home.” It describes a person, or place, that one is easily comfortable with, “at home.”
    It is pronounced “Ay-mish,” and in my youth I was somewhat puzzled by pictures of Amish, looking like Orthodox Jews and described by a Yiddish word. What is this about?
    I eventually learned.

  56. we’ll all be growing beards and wearing funny hats then.
    No big deal. It was good enough for my grandfather.
    The German word heimisch, which my dictionary says means “native,” or “indigenous,” comes out in Yiddish as meaning something like “down-home.” It describes a person, or place, that one is easily comfortable with, “at home.”
    It is pronounced “Ay-mish,” and in my youth I was somewhat puzzled by pictures of Amish, looking like Orthodox Jews and described by a Yiddish word. What is this about?
    I eventually learned.

  57. I never know what to make of the phrase “American values” (or “UK values” or “xyz values”) – it just doesn’t make any sense, if values aren’t universal they are worthless.
    And from the exceptionalist notion that one’s own nation embodies a set of values it is only one small step to the jingoism and racism represented by Trump and his voters.

  58. I never know what to make of the phrase “American values” (or “UK values” or “xyz values”) – it just doesn’t make any sense, if values aren’t universal they are worthless.
    And from the exceptionalist notion that one’s own nation embodies a set of values it is only one small step to the jingoism and racism represented by Trump and his voters.

  59. if values aren’t universal they are worthless.
    Worthless? I’m not sure that’s true.
    If “values” means what people hold important, that notion varies widely depending on culture. Chastity is a value that’s much more important in some cultures than in others. That doesn’t mean it’s “worthless”. Maybe it’s worthless to you (or me), but some people hold it valuable.
    Autonomy is valuable to me, but much less to me than to a libertarian. That doesn’t mean it’s “worthless”.
    Please explain your view.

  60. if values aren’t universal they are worthless.
    Worthless? I’m not sure that’s true.
    If “values” means what people hold important, that notion varies widely depending on culture. Chastity is a value that’s much more important in some cultures than in others. That doesn’t mean it’s “worthless”. Maybe it’s worthless to you (or me), but some people hold it valuable.
    Autonomy is valuable to me, but much less to me than to a libertarian. That doesn’t mean it’s “worthless”.
    Please explain your view.

  65. byomtov, in the Yiddish I often heard spoken, it was pronounced “haymish”, so perhaps your “aymish” is an Americanism, like “erbs” instead of “herbs” as in the rest of the English-speaking world?

  66. byomtov, in the Yiddish I often heard spoken, it was pronounced “haymish”, so perhaps your “aymish” is an Americanism, like “erbs” instead of “herbs” as in the rest of the English-speaking world?

  67. And from the exceptionalist notion that one’s own nation embodies a set of values it is only one small step to the jingoism and racism represented by Trump and his voters.
    It’s actually not. Some governments are set up with certain aspirational goals, either explicitly or implicitly. The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal of the United States, to welcome immigrants who have been maligned or rejected elsewhere.
    We certainly are betraying that promise now. But some countries have never made that promise. There’s nothing wrong with the “exceptionalist” nature of the promise. There’s something hugely wrong with the betrayal of the promise.

  68. And from the exceptionalist notion that one’s own nation embodies a set of values it is only one small step to the jingoism and racism represented by Trump and his voters.
    It’s actually not. Some governments are set up with certain aspirational goals, either explicitly or implicitly. The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal of the United States, to welcome immigrants who have been maligned or rejected elsewhere.
    We certainly are betraying that promise now. But some countries have never made that promise. There’s nothing wrong with the “exceptionalist” nature of the promise. There’s something hugely wrong with the betrayal of the promise.

  69. My simple reasoning on the circle-triangle question is that all 3 points have to be in the same arbitrary half of the circle’s circumference, so 1/2 cubed. I then realized that it could be either half for the center not to be in the triangle. So 1/4 inverted to 3/4.

  70. My simple reasoning on the circle-triangle question is that all 3 points have to be in the same arbitrary half of the circle’s circumference, so 1/2 cubed. I then realized that it could be either half for the center not to be in the triangle. So 1/4 inverted to 3/4.

  71. The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal of the United States, to welcome immigrants
    The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal, but it isn’t to welcome immigrants.
    This is going to be a bit more difficult than the triangle in a circle problem, but for those playing along at home, the name of the goal is in the name of the statue.

  72. The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal of the United States, to welcome immigrants
    The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal, but it isn’t to welcome immigrants.
    This is going to be a bit more difficult than the triangle in a circle problem, but for those playing along at home, the name of the goal is in the name of the statue.

  75. the name of the goal is in the name of the statue.
    “that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ”
    All.

  76. the name of the goal is in the name of the statue.
    “that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ”
    All.

  77. I guess you can ignore the inscription.
    July IV, MDCCLXXVI? I don’t think we should ignore that, it is quite an important date.

  78. I guess you can ignore the inscription.
    July IV, MDCCLXXVI? I don’t think we should ignore that, it is quite an important date.

  79. The Lazarus poem came later. But even if you are an originalist statue person, you might consider the Declaration of Independence as a “value” of the United States.

  80. The Lazarus poem came later. But even if you are an originalist statue person, you might consider the Declaration of Independence as a “value” of the United States.

  81. Or maybe you’re a racist Trump person, Governess Dam, whereby you might explain what kind of shithole you might have come from?

  82. Or maybe you’re a racist Trump person, Governess Dam, whereby you might explain what kind of shithole you might have come from?

  83. Well they didn’t name it the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness. Probably would have been a totally different look.

  84. Well they didn’t name it the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness. Probably would have been a totally different look.

  87. With some time to come back, I wrote out the integrals and got the answer 1/4. With my applied mathematician hat on, I note that the brute force calculus approach does not depend on the various sorts of symmetry other folks’ correct solution requires. Real life is seldom symmetric.

  88. With some time to come back, I wrote out the integrals and got the answer 1/4. With my applied mathematician hat on, I note that the brute force calculus approach does not depend on the various sorts of symmetry other folks’ correct solution requires. Real life is seldom symmetric.

  89. The Statue of Liberty to Own Guns would have been brandishing a revolver instead of holding a torch.
    The Statue of Liberty to Breathe Smog would have been stomping on a catalytic converter.
    The Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would have had a comb-over under that crown.
    Playing along at home is fun.
    –TP

  90. The Statue of Liberty to Own Guns would have been brandishing a revolver instead of holding a torch.
    The Statue of Liberty to Breathe Smog would have been stomping on a catalytic converter.
    The Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would have had a comb-over under that crown.
    Playing along at home is fun.
    –TP

  93. I’m betting the Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would look a lot like the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness.

  94. I’m betting the Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would look a lot like the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness.

  95. I’m betting the Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would look a lot like the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness.
    I’ll take that bet! I’ll wager a gazillion that you’re wrong! When do I collect?

  96. I’m betting the Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would look a lot like the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness.
    I’ll take that bet! I’ll wager a gazillion that you’re wrong! When do I collect?

  105. The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal, but it isn’t to welcome immigrants.
    the statue is based on roman goddess libertas, who was an emblem of republican (small r) governance. the inspiration for erecting it at the particular time it was erected was the union victory in the american civil war.
    subsequently, because of its position at the entrance to NY harbor and its proximity to immigration processing centers like ellis island, it became associated with the experience of the very large influx of immigrants that came to the US in the late 19th and early 20th C. the lazarus poem is in that spirit.
    some folks see openness to immigrants as a positive tradition in the american fabric. some don’t. i have family that came to this country via ellis, and that statue was on of the first things they saw upon arriving here. so i do see it as positive.
    you are welcome to your own opinion.
    what is undoubtedly so is that with few exceptions everybody here came from somewhere else. the details are just a matter of timing.
    we get pretty snarky aound here, but most of us here have been here a while and know each other and know what the traffic will bear. you appear to be a nercomer, you’re welcome to hang out, but perhaps you’ll get a better reception if you don’t lead off by being a dick.
    just saying.

  106. The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal, but it isn’t to welcome immigrants.
    the statue is based on roman goddess libertas, who was an emblem of republican (small r) governance. the inspiration for erecting it at the particular time it was erected was the union victory in the american civil war.
    subsequently, because of its position at the entrance to NY harbor and its proximity to immigration processing centers like ellis island, it became associated with the experience of the very large influx of immigrants that came to the US in the late 19th and early 20th C. the lazarus poem is in that spirit.
    some folks see openness to immigrants as a positive tradition in the american fabric. some don’t. i have family that came to this country via ellis, and that statue was on of the first things they saw upon arriving here. so i do see it as positive.
    you are welcome to your own opinion.
    what is undoubtedly so is that with few exceptions everybody here came from somewhere else. the details are just a matter of timing.
    we get pretty snarky aound here, but most of us here have been here a while and know each other and know what the traffic will bear. you appear to be a nercomer, you’re welcome to hang out, but perhaps you’ll get a better reception if you don’t lead off by being a dick.
    just saying.

  107. If acting stupid is what makes you happy, who am I to complain?
    So no tax on soda then?
    if only we could tax stupid. our fiscal problems would disappear, overnight, as if by magic.

  108. If acting stupid is what makes you happy, who am I to complain?
    So no tax on soda then?
    if only we could tax stupid. our fiscal problems would disappear, overnight, as if by magic.

  109. hsh: 1/4 is the (or an) intuitive answer if the 3 points can be anywhere in the area of the circle
    Really? I can’t imagine how to intuit that, let alone prove it.
    Meanwhile, 1/4 remains the correct answer for 3 random points ON the circle.
    BTW, you were correct a few weeks back: the traveling twin ages less (both by his own clock AND the stay-at-home’s clock) because he accelerates (by changing direction).
    –TP

  110. hsh: 1/4 is the (or an) intuitive answer if the 3 points can be anywhere in the area of the circle
    Really? I can’t imagine how to intuit that, let alone prove it.
    Meanwhile, 1/4 remains the correct answer for 3 random points ON the circle.
    BTW, you were correct a few weeks back: the traveling twin ages less (both by his own clock AND the stay-at-home’s clock) because he accelerates (by changing direction).
    –TP

  111. So no tax on soda then?
    Nope. If soda is so darned important, then wipe the snot off your upper lip, get off your ass, go out and get a job, get some money and buy a gddammned taxed soda fer christ’s sake.
    They tax ‘effing gasoline. Did you know that?
    And cigarettes, too. Yes, unbelievable!

  112. So no tax on soda then?
    Nope. If soda is so darned important, then wipe the snot off your upper lip, get off your ass, go out and get a job, get some money and buy a gddammned taxed soda fer christ’s sake.
    They tax ‘effing gasoline. Did you know that?
    And cigarettes, too. Yes, unbelievable!

  115. “You are welcome to your own opinion.”
    “You are welcome to my agreement with your opinion.”
    Two different statements, but some people can’t tell the difference because they’re … special.
    –TP

  116. “You are welcome to your own opinion.”
    “You are welcome to my agreement with your opinion.”
    Two different statements, but some people can’t tell the difference because they’re … special.
    –TP

  117. . the inspiration for erecting it at the particular time it was erected was the union victory in the american civil war.
    Except I thought it was a gift from France. (Which, if memory serves, has its own copy in Paris.)

  118. . the inspiration for erecting it at the particular time it was erected was the union victory in the american civil war.
    Except I thought it was a gift from France. (Which, if memory serves, has its own copy in Paris.)

  119. It was a gift from France. For America’s Centennial. I don’t think the Confederates getting their asses whupped in the War Betwixt the States had anything to do with it.
    –TP

  120. It was a gift from France. For America’s Centennial. I don’t think the Confederates getting their asses whupped in the War Betwixt the States had anything to do with it.
    –TP

  121. There IS a copy in Paris. Or perhaps, the USA has the copy, and the statue that was made first is in Paris. Not only is it smaller, you can get much closer, outside.

  122. There IS a copy in Paris. Or perhaps, the USA has the copy, and the statue that was made first is in Paris. Not only is it smaller, you can get much closer, outside.

  123. There’s a copy in Vegas too, that most American of all cities.
    “You are welcome to your own opinion.”
    “You are welcome to my agreement with your opinion.”
    Two different statements
    No response I got here makes me think that you believe I am welcome to my opinion.

  124. There’s a copy in Vegas too, that most American of all cities.
    “You are welcome to your own opinion.”
    “You are welcome to my agreement with your opinion.”
    Two different statements
    No response I got here makes me think that you believe I am welcome to my opinion.

  125. I’m betting the Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would look a lot like the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness.
    If the emphasis is on ‘pursuit’, this may be a bit cynical but has some truth to it.
    Ja, renn nur nach dem Glück
    doch renne nicht zu sehr
    denn alle rennen nach dem Glück
    das Glück rennt hinterher
    (Bertolt Brecht, Threepenny Opera)
    (Yeah, run after happiness, but do not run too much, for everyone is running after happiness, happiness is running after them)

  126. I’m betting the Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would look a lot like the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness.
    If the emphasis is on ‘pursuit’, this may be a bit cynical but has some truth to it.
    Ja, renn nur nach dem Glück
    doch renne nicht zu sehr
    denn alle rennen nach dem Glück
    das Glück rennt hinterher
    (Bertolt Brecht, Threepenny Opera)
    (Yeah, run after happiness, but do not run too much, for everyone is running after happiness, happiness is running after them)

  127. If one feels offended and attacked when others disagree and argue against one’s expressed opinions, it’s probably a poor idea to go out of one’s way to express those opinions in a public forum devoted to disagreement and debate over ideas.
    Unless one’s goal is to be offended and feel attacked.

  128. If one feels offended and attacked when others disagree and argue against one’s expressed opinions, it’s probably a poor idea to go out of one’s way to express those opinions in a public forum devoted to disagreement and debate over ideas.
    Unless one’s goal is to be offended and feel attacked.

  129. some people can’t tell the difference
    I am reminded of former half-term Governor Sarah Palin’s apparent conviction that “freedom of speech” meant that she could say anything at all without being subject to criticism for her statements — that the freedom was all _hers_.
    The freedom of other people to say what they thought of Ms. Palin didn’t enter into her calculations at all.

  130. some people can’t tell the difference
    I am reminded of former half-term Governor Sarah Palin’s apparent conviction that “freedom of speech” meant that she could say anything at all without being subject to criticism for her statements — that the freedom was all _hers_.
    The freedom of other people to say what they thought of Ms. Palin didn’t enter into her calculations at all.

  131. Had the al Qaeda 9/11 conservatives flown their planes into the Statue of Liberty, subhuman American republican confederate deplorable vermin would have risen to their feet on rooftops, including in mp’s shithole Tower, in their shithole red states and celebrated the event.
    Word has it the republican shooter in Vegas stopped by the copy in Vegas before his personal outreach event so Liberty could bless his freedom to murder, American-style.
    Been reading comment sections (amazing how many conservative hateful vermin hang at financial threads; remarkably like white supremacist sites like StormFront, which is just another name for Mar-a-Lago) and along with the mp enablers in the republican mafia, whose lives have shortened considerably unbeknownst to them, and it’s clear that the mp “shithole” remarks have been fully normalized into the discourse.
    I expect mp to take down the fags, kikes, jew boys, towelheads, camel jockeys, niggers, wetbacks, and cunts, by name in the SOTU coming up soon and not one of the near-Death republicans in Congress or the entire republican edifice in the media or blogdom or academia will rise to their feet to yell “You lie!” from the cheap seats they are paid billions to occupy.
    Lucy Palin got no splainin to do in pigfuck shithole freed up politically incorrect America, so Ricky be deported to babaloo land in Cuba so she can suck Fred Mertz’s republican cock tax free.
    My mother told me as a child that if I didn’t have anything nice to say, better to keep a sock in it, but she just as well could have added make sure you don’t say or write anything that will land you in shackles with a hood over your head in front of a FISA Court on the way to Guantanamo, but that is now my life’s goal.
    I just deleted a previous comment that would have landed all of us in Homeland Security custody, but we’ll all be there soon enough despite me, by necessity.
    Sorry, Mom.
    Look deep into this face, republicans. But I repeat myself:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx-rrBv2lyc

  132. Had the al Qaeda 9/11 conservatives flown their planes into the Statue of Liberty, subhuman American republican confederate deplorable vermin would have risen to their feet on rooftops, including in mp’s shithole Tower, in their shithole red states and celebrated the event.
    Word has it the republican shooter in Vegas stopped by the copy in Vegas before his personal outreach event so Liberty could bless his freedom to murder, American-style.
    Been reading comment sections (amazing how many conservative hateful vermin hang at financial threads; remarkably like white supremacist sites like StormFront, which is just another name for Mar-a-Lago) and along with the mp enablers in the republican mafia, whose lives have shortened considerably unbeknownst to them, and it’s clear that the mp “shithole” remarks have been fully normalized into the discourse.
    I expect mp to take down the fags, kikes, jew boys, towelheads, camel jockeys, niggers, wetbacks, and cunts, by name in the SOTU coming up soon and not one of the near-Death republicans in Congress or the entire republican edifice in the media or blogdom or academia will rise to their feet to yell “You lie!” from the cheap seats they are paid billions to occupy.
    Lucy Palin got no splainin to do in pigfuck shithole freed up politically incorrect America, so Ricky be deported to babaloo land in Cuba so she can suck Fred Mertz’s republican cock tax free.
    My mother told me as a child that if I didn’t have anything nice to say, better to keep a sock in it, but she just as well could have added make sure you don’t say or write anything that will land you in shackles with a hood over your head in front of a FISA Court on the way to Guantanamo, but that is now my life’s goal.
    I just deleted a previous comment that would have landed all of us in Homeland Security custody, but we’ll all be there soon enough despite me, by necessity.
    Sorry, Mom.
    Look deep into this face, republicans. But I repeat myself:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx-rrBv2lyc

  133. Norwegian Anders Behring Breivik has been named Immigrant Citizen of the Century and accorded immediate American citizenship, as he meets all of the qualifications to live and kill the Other in shit hole America.

  134. Norwegian Anders Behring Breivik has been named Immigrant Citizen of the Century and accorded immediate American citizenship, as he meets all of the qualifications to live and kill the Other in shit hole America.

  135. I don’t think the Confederates getting their asses whupped in the War Betwixt the States had anything to do with it.
    Au contraire. It was proposed by Édouard de Laboulaye, chairman of the French Anti-Slavery Society, shortly after the Union victory.

  136. I don’t think the Confederates getting their asses whupped in the War Betwixt the States had anything to do with it.
    Au contraire. It was proposed by Édouard de Laboulaye, chairman of the French Anti-Slavery Society, shortly after the Union victory.

  137. “Au contraire. It was proposed by Édouard de Laboulaye, chairman of the French Anti-Slavery Society, shortly after the Union victory.”
    The French are so romantic.
    A perfect line intersects Laboulaye’s quaint sentiments and the republican reaction to them in shit hole confederate 2018 America.
    A quote from another site’s comment thread from a deplorable defensing mp, to be inscribed on the statue of these dead slave owners to be erected by the republican party in place of the Statue of Liberty after conservative terrorists blow the latter up:
    “No one in the last 5000 years has ever said we need more black people.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGFjt2aaOg0

  138. “Au contraire. It was proposed by Édouard de Laboulaye, chairman of the French Anti-Slavery Society, shortly after the Union victory.”
    The French are so romantic.
    A perfect line intersects Laboulaye’s quaint sentiments and the republican reaction to them in shit hole confederate 2018 America.
    A quote from another site’s comment thread from a deplorable defensing mp, to be inscribed on the statue of these dead slave owners to be erected by the republican party in place of the Statue of Liberty after conservative terrorists blow the latter up:
    “No one in the last 5000 years has ever said we need more black people.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGFjt2aaOg0

  141. With “Posted by: Tony P. | January 12, 2018 at 06:53 PM,” a more-sober me agrees. Also with the more-rigorous (i.e. using integrals) solution by MC and at CharlesWT’s link. But the pure logic is unassailable AFAIAC.
    You are not welcome to your own opinion, but that’s just my opinion, which I am not wecome to – at least not in my opinion.

  142. With “Posted by: Tony P. | January 12, 2018 at 06:53 PM,” a more-sober me agrees. Also with the more-rigorous (i.e. using integrals) solution by MC and at CharlesWT’s link. But the pure logic is unassailable AFAIAC.
    You are not welcome to your own opinion, but that’s just my opinion, which I am not wecome to – at least not in my opinion.

  143. Maybe it’s worthless to you (or me), but some people hold it valuable.
    I think you’ve just answered your own question. People can consider anything under the sun valuable, and good for them – but it’s completely arbitrary.

  144. Maybe it’s worthless to you (or me), but some people hold it valuable.
    I think you’ve just answered your own question. People can consider anything under the sun valuable, and good for them – but it’s completely arbitrary.

  145. GfTNC,
    I’m sure it is often pronounced with the “H,” but dropping it is not an Americanism. The Yiddish we spoke at home came from Poland, not New York.

  146. GfTNC,
    I’m sure it is often pronounced with the “H,” but dropping it is not an Americanism. The Yiddish we spoke at home came from Poland, not New York.

  149. Interesting, thanks byomtov. As previously discussed, most jews I knew in my youth were of Lithuanian background, so maybe that’s the difference. Although, in Israel, I also heard plenty of yiddish, and I don’t remember the dropped H. Alas, I don’t speak yiddish, but I wish I did since it is clearly the most expressive, funny, wonderful language. I use some of the words I know, such as (to express being confused, distracted, mixed-up) “tsumisht”. Impossible to put it better, I would have thought.

  150. Interesting, thanks byomtov. As previously discussed, most jews I knew in my youth were of Lithuanian background, so maybe that’s the difference. Although, in Israel, I also heard plenty of yiddish, and I don’t remember the dropped H. Alas, I don’t speak yiddish, but I wish I did since it is clearly the most expressive, funny, wonderful language. I use some of the words I know, such as (to express being confused, distracted, mixed-up) “tsumisht”. Impossible to put it better, I would have thought.

  161. the initial proposal for the statue was made to bartholdi by edouard de laboulaye, a french anti-slavery activist.
    No response I got here makes me think that you believe I am welcome to my opinion.
    and yet no-one has in any way interfered with your desire or ability to express it.
    what exactly were you looking for?

  162. the initial proposal for the statue was made to bartholdi by edouard de laboulaye, a french anti-slavery activist.
    No response I got here makes me think that you believe I am welcome to my opinion.
    and yet no-one has in any way interfered with your desire or ability to express it.
    what exactly were you looking for?

  163. An anti-slavery activist?
    I guess that would make sense considering slavery is sort of the opposite of liberty. Doesn’t really have anything to do with immigration though.
    What am I looking for? Good grief, I have no idea. I guess I got the response I expected.
    Sad!

  164. An anti-slavery activist?
    I guess that would make sense considering slavery is sort of the opposite of liberty. Doesn’t really have anything to do with immigration though.
    What am I looking for? Good grief, I have no idea. I guess I got the response I expected.
    Sad!

  165. I guess that would make sense considering slavery is sort of the opposite of liberty.
    damned straight.
    Doesn’t really have anything to do with immigration though.
    the association with immigration came later.
    is there a substantive point you want to make? about immigration, perhaps?
    if you’re just here to point out the the statue of liberty is not actually named the statue of immigration, you have achieved your goal. go in peace.
    if you are interested in discussing immigration policy, or whatever, you’re welcome to do so.

  166. I guess that would make sense considering slavery is sort of the opposite of liberty.
    damned straight.
    Doesn’t really have anything to do with immigration though.
    the association with immigration came later.
    is there a substantive point you want to make? about immigration, perhaps?
    if you’re just here to point out the the statue of liberty is not actually named the statue of immigration, you have achieved your goal. go in peace.
    if you are interested in discussing immigration policy, or whatever, you’re welcome to do so.

  167. Doesn’t really have anything to do with immigration though.
    As someone whose grandparents were immigrants, I feel that there’s a strong association between the Statue of Liberty and the idea that one of America’s ideals is to welcome people from dictatorships and totalitarian countries who are “yearning to breathe free”. I am an American exceptionalist in that this ideal was something I was brought up to embrace.
    Certainly, other countries welcome immigrants. At this moment, there are plenty of places doing a much better job of it than we are. So my version of “American exceptionalism” doesn’t involve running around with a MAGA hat on, or bragging about various policies I don’t believe in. My version is that we have the idea that “Americans is an immigrant nation” as a founding principal. I’m not alone in embracing that aspiration, but it used to be a more bipartisan view of things. Many Republicans seemed to have lost interest in the “beacon” aspect of American creation mythology altogether. Unfortunate, IMO, but my values aren’t universal, so perhaps they’re worthless.

  168. Doesn’t really have anything to do with immigration though.
    As someone whose grandparents were immigrants, I feel that there’s a strong association between the Statue of Liberty and the idea that one of America’s ideals is to welcome people from dictatorships and totalitarian countries who are “yearning to breathe free”. I am an American exceptionalist in that this ideal was something I was brought up to embrace.
    Certainly, other countries welcome immigrants. At this moment, there are plenty of places doing a much better job of it than we are. So my version of “American exceptionalism” doesn’t involve running around with a MAGA hat on, or bragging about various policies I don’t believe in. My version is that we have the idea that “Americans is an immigrant nation” as a founding principal. I’m not alone in embracing that aspiration, but it used to be a more bipartisan view of things. Many Republicans seemed to have lost interest in the “beacon” aspect of American creation mythology altogether. Unfortunate, IMO, but my values aren’t universal, so perhaps they’re worthless.

  171. if you’re just here to point out the the statue of liberty is not actually named the statue of immigration, you have achieved your goal
    That was the main point I wanted to make. Not just the name, but the reason for the statue in the first place, but whatever.
    More generally, it seems even the concept of liberty has become out of fashion over the years, and I don’t like that. I think liberty is important.
    Immigration?
    I guess there’s 3 ways you can look at the thing.
    Number one, are some countries really horrible places to live? We’ve heard the liberals a few months ago saying that Haiti was in such bad shape due to a disaster almost a decade ago that it would be inhumane to ask the “temporary” refugees to return.
    So yeah, some countries are really horrible places to live.
    Then there’s the question of whether a politician should use a vulgar term to refer to a really horrible place to live. I will let Joe “Big Something Deal” Biden take that question. He will lecture me on how politicians should talk and the words they can and can’t use.
    The third and probably most interesting bit is whether the fact that a country is a really horrible place to live should influence the amount of immigrants we allow from that country.
    I think if you are talking about targeted immigration, then it doesn’t matter, but if you are talking about allowing refugee status to anyone in a country, it does.

  172. if you’re just here to point out the the statue of liberty is not actually named the statue of immigration, you have achieved your goal
    That was the main point I wanted to make. Not just the name, but the reason for the statue in the first place, but whatever.
    More generally, it seems even the concept of liberty has become out of fashion over the years, and I don’t like that. I think liberty is important.
    Immigration?
    I guess there’s 3 ways you can look at the thing.
    Number one, are some countries really horrible places to live? We’ve heard the liberals a few months ago saying that Haiti was in such bad shape due to a disaster almost a decade ago that it would be inhumane to ask the “temporary” refugees to return.
    So yeah, some countries are really horrible places to live.
    Then there’s the question of whether a politician should use a vulgar term to refer to a really horrible place to live. I will let Joe “Big Something Deal” Biden take that question. He will lecture me on how politicians should talk and the words they can and can’t use.
    The third and probably most interesting bit is whether the fact that a country is a really horrible place to live should influence the amount of immigrants we allow from that country.
    I think if you are talking about targeted immigration, then it doesn’t matter, but if you are talking about allowing refugee status to anyone in a country, it does.

  173. So yeah, some countries are really horrible places to live.
    and that is irrelevant to what makes Trump’s comment so shitty.

  174. So yeah, some countries are really horrible places to live.
    and that is irrelevant to what makes Trump’s comment so shitty.

  177. there are eyewitness reports and non-denial-denials, and cheerleading from dipshit MAGA racists who agree with the reported comment. that’s more than enough.
    troll smarter.

  178. there are eyewitness reports and non-denial-denials, and cheerleading from dipshit MAGA racists who agree with the reported comment. that’s more than enough.
    troll smarter.

  179. What is wrong with you?
    I’m not denying anything, before we discuss what he said, where’s a transcript of what he said?
    Jesus.

  180. What is wrong with you?
    I’m not denying anything, before we discuss what he said, where’s a transcript of what he said?
    Jesus.

  181. Governess Dam – thanks for expanding on your earlier comments.
    My thoughts:
    Yes, some places are not such great places to live. Especially if the standard of comparison is a developed or “first world” country. Some places are poor, and/or have badly functioning governments.
    I don’t really care that Trump called African nations shitholes. I’m sure it’s not the first, nor the last, time that African nations, or poorer or less developed nations generally, were or will be referred to using derogatory terms, including profanity. The issue for me is that the POTUS appears to consider *people from those places* to be less worthwhile candidates for moving here.
    Whether a given country’s development status, or the quality of its government or general quality of life, should be basis of letting people come here or not is an interesting one. What is our goal in allowing people to come here or not come here?
    How many people can we absorb?
    Do we want to prefer people who bring specific skill sets or experiences?
    Do we want to prefer people who are “more like us” rather than less?
    Historically, we’ve been all over the map, on all of these questions.
    I would say that our experience admitting people who are, personally, poor, and/or who come from poor or less developed countries, has actually been excellent. Very much so, in fact. That probably describes the vast – really vast – majority of people who have emigrated here, ever.
    I would also say that our experience admitting such people in large numbers has been, maybe not uniformly excellent, but on the whole pretty good.
    As far as who is “like us” and who is “not like us”, that’s also been a moving target. First it was only English speaking people and the Germans were looked down on. Then it was only Protestants, and the Catholics and Jews were looked down on. Then (or sort of at the same time) it was only northern Europeans, and southern Europeans were looked down on.
    We specifically excluded Chinese and Asians in general for quite a while, now we think they’re great.
    Pretty much everyone who has come has found a way to fit in, usually within a couple of generations. And part of that process has been that the broader culture has, itself, adjusted to absorb and accommodate them.
    I see that as a good thing, and in fact one of the things that is truly unique about the United States. Many countries can actually be kind of hard to get into, and most require you to have a job in hand, or at least that you bring a lot of money with you. Historically we haven’t required those things.
    We could start, but IMO it will change the character of the nation, and not in good ways.

  182. Governess Dam – thanks for expanding on your earlier comments.
    My thoughts:
    Yes, some places are not such great places to live. Especially if the standard of comparison is a developed or “first world” country. Some places are poor, and/or have badly functioning governments.
    I don’t really care that Trump called African nations shitholes. I’m sure it’s not the first, nor the last, time that African nations, or poorer or less developed nations generally, were or will be referred to using derogatory terms, including profanity. The issue for me is that the POTUS appears to consider *people from those places* to be less worthwhile candidates for moving here.
    Whether a given country’s development status, or the quality of its government or general quality of life, should be basis of letting people come here or not is an interesting one. What is our goal in allowing people to come here or not come here?
    How many people can we absorb?
    Do we want to prefer people who bring specific skill sets or experiences?
    Do we want to prefer people who are “more like us” rather than less?
    Historically, we’ve been all over the map, on all of these questions.
    I would say that our experience admitting people who are, personally, poor, and/or who come from poor or less developed countries, has actually been excellent. Very much so, in fact. That probably describes the vast – really vast – majority of people who have emigrated here, ever.
    I would also say that our experience admitting such people in large numbers has been, maybe not uniformly excellent, but on the whole pretty good.
    As far as who is “like us” and who is “not like us”, that’s also been a moving target. First it was only English speaking people and the Germans were looked down on. Then it was only Protestants, and the Catholics and Jews were looked down on. Then (or sort of at the same time) it was only northern Europeans, and southern Europeans were looked down on.
    We specifically excluded Chinese and Asians in general for quite a while, now we think they’re great.
    Pretty much everyone who has come has found a way to fit in, usually within a couple of generations. And part of that process has been that the broader culture has, itself, adjusted to absorb and accommodate them.
    I see that as a good thing, and in fact one of the things that is truly unique about the United States. Many countries can actually be kind of hard to get into, and most require you to have a job in hand, or at least that you bring a lot of money with you. Historically we haven’t required those things.
    We could start, but IMO it will change the character of the nation, and not in good ways.

  183. What is wrong with you?
    I’m not denying anything, before we discuss what he said, where’s a transcript of what he said?
    we know what he said. quit playing dumb.

  184. What is wrong with you?
    I’m not denying anything, before we discuss what he said, where’s a transcript of what he said?
    we know what he said. quit playing dumb.

  185. The issue for me is that the POTUS appears to consider *people from those places* to be less worthwhile candidates for moving here.
    right.
    and, in order to make sure we didn’t miss his point (though many are still trying hard to miss it), he singled out what could literally be the whitest country on earth as the example of where we should be getting more people from.

  186. The issue for me is that the POTUS appears to consider *people from those places* to be less worthwhile candidates for moving here.
    right.
    and, in order to make sure we didn’t miss his point (though many are still trying hard to miss it), he singled out what could literally be the whitest country on earth as the example of where we should be getting more people from.

  187. Then there’s the question of whether a politician should use a vulgar term to refer to a really horrible place to live.
    Once upon a time, there was a concept of “couth”: at minimum, some good manners and behavior. It was expected from, among others, those leading our government. It seems to be rather out of favor in some circles. Not that they simply don’t (or can’t) execute; they seem to make an active virtue out of behaving badly. “Reverse snobbery” is putting it mildly.
    (I can remember, in the late 1960s, when that was the view in some circles on the left. Today, as with a number of things, the right has taken it over.)

  188. Then there’s the question of whether a politician should use a vulgar term to refer to a really horrible place to live.
    Once upon a time, there was a concept of “couth”: at minimum, some good manners and behavior. It was expected from, among others, those leading our government. It seems to be rather out of favor in some circles. Not that they simply don’t (or can’t) execute; they seem to make an active virtue out of behaving badly. “Reverse snobbery” is putting it mildly.
    (I can remember, in the late 1960s, when that was the view in some circles on the left. Today, as with a number of things, the right has taken it over.)

  193. Given the climate, and irrespective of the population, I’d prefer Norway. Hot and humid, whether it’s Haiti, or Florida, or Singapore, is just not attractive. Not to mention that, if it’s cold you can always add more clothing; but there is a necessary limit to how much you can take off — once everything is gone, you’re stuck.

  194. Given the climate, and irrespective of the population, I’d prefer Norway. Hot and humid, whether it’s Haiti, or Florida, or Singapore, is just not attractive. Not to mention that, if it’s cold you can always add more clothing; but there is a necessary limit to how much you can take off — once everything is gone, you’re stuck.

  195. Past presidents have generally been able to speak softly, politely, or not at all while bombing tens of thousands of people into the ground.

  196. Past presidents have generally been able to speak softly, politely, or not at all while bombing tens of thousands of people into the ground.

  199. Climate preference is racist???
    Even though I would also rather live in Norway than Italy, in Japan than Singapore, in Namibia than Nigeria. Each pair, be it noted, having populations which are largely of the same race.
    You can see racist anywhere is you insist. Doesn’t mean it’s there.

  200. Climate preference is racist???
    Even though I would also rather live in Norway than Italy, in Japan than Singapore, in Namibia than Nigeria. Each pair, be it noted, having populations which are largely of the same race.
    You can see racist anywhere is you insist. Doesn’t mean it’s there.

  201. if forced to choose would you rather live in Haiti or Norway?
    I’m not cleek but I’ll reply.
    It would be a tough call. I have enough money that I could probably live pretty well in Haiti – far more so than in Norway, which is actually a pretty expensive place to live – and I hate hate hate the dark winters. Plus, I have a strong interest in Afro-Caribbean musical traditions, of which Haiti has one of the most interesting.
    Was your question intended to make a point about immigration? Or was it just intended to be a defense of the POTUS’ comments?

  202. if forced to choose would you rather live in Haiti or Norway?
    I’m not cleek but I’ll reply.
    It would be a tough call. I have enough money that I could probably live pretty well in Haiti – far more so than in Norway, which is actually a pretty expensive place to live – and I hate hate hate the dark winters. Plus, I have a strong interest in Afro-Caribbean musical traditions, of which Haiti has one of the most interesting.
    Was your question intended to make a point about immigration? Or was it just intended to be a defense of the POTUS’ comments?

  203. I can’t defend the comments until I see what they were, do you have a transcript?
    From what I’ve read he used a vulgar term to describe some countries that we all agree aren’t great places to live, is that a fair summary?

  204. I can’t defend the comments until I see what they were, do you have a transcript?
    From what I’ve read he used a vulgar term to describe some countries that we all agree aren’t great places to live, is that a fair summary?

  205. What clever boots have we here?
    I’m a little bit of a connoisseur of blogging handles.
    Whence comes Governess Dam?
    Another animal kingdom reference to add to our menagerie?
    I was just in Ohio for a couple of weeks, a state I was born in and where I attended college. Froze my keester off.
    I would have preferred Haiti. And Norway in the summer.
    I’m kinda cosmopolitan that way.
    Now we have a President who speaks like an asshole and carries himself like one too.

  206. What clever boots have we here?
    I’m a little bit of a connoisseur of blogging handles.
    Whence comes Governess Dam?
    Another animal kingdom reference to add to our menagerie?
    I was just in Ohio for a couple of weeks, a state I was born in and where I attended college. Froze my keester off.
    I would have preferred Haiti. And Norway in the summer.
    I’m kinda cosmopolitan that way.
    Now we have a President who speaks like an asshole and carries himself like one too.

  207. Look, this guy (or girl, but somehow I strongly doubt that…) is an obvious troll who adds nothing but petty sophistry, so just ban him and be done with it.

  208. Look, this guy (or girl, but somehow I strongly doubt that…) is an obvious troll who adds nothing but petty sophistry, so just ban him and be done with it.

  209. From what I’ve read he used a vulgar term to describe some countries that we all agree aren’t great places to live, is that a fair summary?
    That’s my understanding. And basically it just doesn’t bug me. I am personally no stranger to vulgar expressions, for good or ill, and for which I hope wj can forgive me.
    The part that bugs me is the “Why are we taking people from sh*thole countries” that bugs me.
    So, if we are interested in pursuing the issue of immigration, rather than the POTUS’ vocabulary, perhaps that’s what we should focus on.
    There’s also the fact that the countries under discussion have majority black populations, which reinforces the sense that the POTUS sees black people as inferior. It’s of a piece with comments about people from Nigeria not wanting to go back to their “mud huts”.
    I don’t like that, either.
    It ain’t about the choice of words. For me, anyway.

  210. From what I’ve read he used a vulgar term to describe some countries that we all agree aren’t great places to live, is that a fair summary?
    That’s my understanding. And basically it just doesn’t bug me. I am personally no stranger to vulgar expressions, for good or ill, and for which I hope wj can forgive me.
    The part that bugs me is the “Why are we taking people from sh*thole countries” that bugs me.
    So, if we are interested in pursuing the issue of immigration, rather than the POTUS’ vocabulary, perhaps that’s what we should focus on.
    There’s also the fact that the countries under discussion have majority black populations, which reinforces the sense that the POTUS sees black people as inferior. It’s of a piece with comments about people from Nigeria not wanting to go back to their “mud huts”.
    I don’t like that, either.
    It ain’t about the choice of words. For me, anyway.

  211. “Why are we taking people from sh*thole countries”
    Yeah, that would be the third part of what I talked about, whether it’s a good idea to take refugees from a country without discriminating based on skills and language and stuff like that.
    “There’s also the fact that the countries under discussion have majority black populations”
    Well El Salvador doesn’t. It’s not in my top ten list of places to move to. It’s not a skin color type thing.
    I know people who are planning on retiring in Costa Rica who would never consider El Salvador.
    You think that’s a skin color thing?

  212. “Why are we taking people from sh*thole countries”
    Yeah, that would be the third part of what I talked about, whether it’s a good idea to take refugees from a country without discriminating based on skills and language and stuff like that.
    “There’s also the fact that the countries under discussion have majority black populations”
    Well El Salvador doesn’t. It’s not in my top ten list of places to move to. It’s not a skin color type thing.
    I know people who are planning on retiring in Costa Rica who would never consider El Salvador.
    You think that’s a skin color thing?

  213. whether it’s a good idea to take refugees from a country without discriminating based on skills and language and stuff like that.
    Yes, it is a good idea. Paul Ryan recently complained that Americans aren’t having enough babies. Infants don’t speak English, and their resumes are thin. Also, people have to take care of them, rather than they taking care of other people. Maybe other solutions make more sense, like welcoming immigrants.

  214. whether it’s a good idea to take refugees from a country without discriminating based on skills and language and stuff like that.
    Yes, it is a good idea. Paul Ryan recently complained that Americans aren’t having enough babies. Infants don’t speak English, and their resumes are thin. Also, people have to take care of them, rather than they taking care of other people. Maybe other solutions make more sense, like welcoming immigrants.

  215. Well consider that, for example, a bigger percentage of immigrants from Nigeria (one of those sh*thole African countries, you know) have college degrees than the percentage of Americans who do. Which yes, does rather suggest that for Trump it is a skin color thing.

  216. Well consider that, for example, a bigger percentage of immigrants from Nigeria (one of those sh*thole African countries, you know) have college degrees than the percentage of Americans who do. Which yes, does rather suggest that for Trump it is a skin color thing.

  217. I don’t believe we should prioritize poaching the best and brightest from other countries, unless they are fleeing obvious oppression. They should remain in situ and help build their economies so they can catch up with and surpass the United States, and China for that matter.
    Who do we think we are?
    Locking the less fortunate, who work their asses off, whether they are fleeing refugees or not, out of the United States only hurts us in the long run.
    It’s precisely the same as locking the steerage passengers on the Titanic below decks as the wealthy take the lifeboats.
    If we do rape other countries of their best and brightest, merely to benefit ourselves, other countries should turn to China and Russia and other actors for assistance, including military.
    China is making big inroads in Africa, shrinking our sphere of influence.
    Good. We deserve it.

  218. I don’t believe we should prioritize poaching the best and brightest from other countries, unless they are fleeing obvious oppression. They should remain in situ and help build their economies so they can catch up with and surpass the United States, and China for that matter.
    Who do we think we are?
    Locking the less fortunate, who work their asses off, whether they are fleeing refugees or not, out of the United States only hurts us in the long run.
    It’s precisely the same as locking the steerage passengers on the Titanic below decks as the wealthy take the lifeboats.
    If we do rape other countries of their best and brightest, merely to benefit ourselves, other countries should turn to China and Russia and other actors for assistance, including military.
    China is making big inroads in Africa, shrinking our sphere of influence.
    Good. We deserve it.

  221. I don’t believe we should prioritize poaching the best and brightest from other countries, unless they are fleeing obvious oppression. They should remain in situ and help build their economies so they can catch up with and surpass the United States, and China for that matter.
    Who do we think we are?

    If we were, as a nation, actively going out and recruiting them, you might have a point. But all we are doing is allowing them to choose to come here.

  222. I don’t believe we should prioritize poaching the best and brightest from other countries, unless they are fleeing obvious oppression. They should remain in situ and help build their economies so they can catch up with and surpass the United States, and China for that matter.
    Who do we think we are?

    If we were, as a nation, actively going out and recruiting them, you might have a point. But all we are doing is allowing them to choose to come here.

  223. Governess Dam seems to think the meeting mp led at the White House was a coffee clatch in which everyone was discussing which countries Americans should emigrate to.
    I have a friend and his wife who moved to Costa Rica after the 2016 election. Wanna know why?
    Clue, not a shithole but a shithead was the reason.

  224. Governess Dam seems to think the meeting mp led at the White House was a coffee clatch in which everyone was discussing which countries Americans should emigrate to.
    I have a friend and his wife who moved to Costa Rica after the 2016 election. Wanna know why?
    Clue, not a shithole but a shithead was the reason.

  229. “But all we are doing is allowing them to choose to come here.”
    Yes, but now we are talking about NOT allowing the less fortunate and less educated in here, so the others have a leg up on the immigration list.
    No, we don’t actively recruit, but I’m pretty sure the American embassies, the Voice of America and suchlike extoll the virtues of living in exceptional America and the advantages of becoming U.S. citizens.
    Maybe not anymore. Maybe when an educated, professional Ecuadoran starts nosing around with an eye to moving his or her family here, we say, “Nah, not a good idea. The U.S. is a shithole.”

  230. “But all we are doing is allowing them to choose to come here.”
    Yes, but now we are talking about NOT allowing the less fortunate and less educated in here, so the others have a leg up on the immigration list.
    No, we don’t actively recruit, but I’m pretty sure the American embassies, the Voice of America and suchlike extoll the virtues of living in exceptional America and the advantages of becoming U.S. citizens.
    Maybe not anymore. Maybe when an educated, professional Ecuadoran starts nosing around with an eye to moving his or her family here, we say, “Nah, not a good idea. The U.S. is a shithole.”

  231. Yes, but now we are talking about NOT allowing the less fortunate and less educated in here, so the others have a leg up on the immigration list.
    I’d offer to bet you that Trump can’t imagine any of those immigrants from “sh*thole countries” being educated people who would get thru on a merit-based system. But I suspect I’m not winning any sucker bets tonight.

  232. Yes, but now we are talking about NOT allowing the less fortunate and less educated in here, so the others have a leg up on the immigration list.
    I’d offer to bet you that Trump can’t imagine any of those immigrants from “sh*thole countries” being educated people who would get thru on a merit-based system. But I suspect I’m not winning any sucker bets tonight.

  235. Those with the keys:
    Clear case of content-free trolling in Aisle One.
    Do what you like about it, but IMHO there’s no doubt about the pattern nor the intent.

  236. Those with the keys:
    Clear case of content-free trolling in Aisle One.
    Do what you like about it, but IMHO there’s no doubt about the pattern nor the intent.

  237. I’ll take a wild guess that our latest playmate is a maternity-ward immigrant and not a port-of-entry immigrant. And proud of it, as if it’s a personal accomplishment in some way.
    He, Trump being a shining example of what maternity-ward immigrants can be like, I can’t see it as evidence of superiority, myself.
    “Shithole countries” is not the obscenity. “Take them out” is an obscenity. Deporting people who became Americans involuntarily (just like the maternity-ward kind) back “home” is an obscenity. Birtherism is an obscenity. Marketing Trump hotels to rich Russians who want to give birth in the US while railing about “anchor babies” is a hypocritical obscenity.
    Make America Decent Again. ITMFA.
    –TP

  238. I’ll take a wild guess that our latest playmate is a maternity-ward immigrant and not a port-of-entry immigrant. And proud of it, as if it’s a personal accomplishment in some way.
    He, Trump being a shining example of what maternity-ward immigrants can be like, I can’t see it as evidence of superiority, myself.
    “Shithole countries” is not the obscenity. “Take them out” is an obscenity. Deporting people who became Americans involuntarily (just like the maternity-ward kind) back “home” is an obscenity. Birtherism is an obscenity. Marketing Trump hotels to rich Russians who want to give birth in the US while railing about “anchor babies” is a hypocritical obscenity.
    Make America Decent Again. ITMFA.
    –TP

  239. Racism?
    No, conservative death squads in el Salvador. And Costa Rica provides universal healthcare to its citizens and permanent residents, whereas, at the behest of American conservative influence, El Salvadorans may be in danger of losing their universal system, no doubt helped by the stray American-supplied bullets that find themselves embedded in liberal El Salvadoran skulls.
    Tell you what, tell me what race you are and I might be able work up a bolus of prejudice against your people based on your representation of them here today.
    Something tells me you are an outlying data point however, and generalizing from the particular in the conservative manner would be highly unfair.
    It would be like believing ben carson is an asshole and then turning down taxi rides from all black drivers or brain surgery from all black surgeons based on his unfortunate choice to be an asshole, against his mother’s best wishes for him.
    Besides, there are few Irishmen is either El Salvador and Costa Rica, so what’s to hate ethnically? Ha ha.

  240. Racism?
    No, conservative death squads in el Salvador. And Costa Rica provides universal healthcare to its citizens and permanent residents, whereas, at the behest of American conservative influence, El Salvadorans may be in danger of losing their universal system, no doubt helped by the stray American-supplied bullets that find themselves embedded in liberal El Salvadoran skulls.
    Tell you what, tell me what race you are and I might be able work up a bolus of prejudice against your people based on your representation of them here today.
    Something tells me you are an outlying data point however, and generalizing from the particular in the conservative manner would be highly unfair.
    It would be like believing ben carson is an asshole and then turning down taxi rides from all black drivers or brain surgery from all black surgeons based on his unfortunate choice to be an asshole, against his mother’s best wishes for him.
    Besides, there are few Irishmen is either El Salvador and Costa Rica, so what’s to hate ethnically? Ha ha.

  241. Well El Salvador doesn’t.
    I don’t recall El Salvador being in the list of sh*thole countries. Apparently it was. Live and learn.
    Given the choice of moving to Costa Rica or El Salvador, I’d probably pick Costa Rica.
    Given the choice of letting somebody move here from either Costa Rica or El Salvador, I’d say jump ball. Depends on the individual person, not the country of origin.
    Where your buddy wants to retire hardly seems relevant at all.
    I’m trying to figure out what point it is that you’re actually trying to make.
    We should restrict immigration to only folks with desirable resumes?
    We should restrict immigration to only from developed countries, or only countries with some baseline of functional government?
    Maybe you could be clearer about what it is you’re trying to say.

  242. Well El Salvador doesn’t.
    I don’t recall El Salvador being in the list of sh*thole countries. Apparently it was. Live and learn.
    Given the choice of moving to Costa Rica or El Salvador, I’d probably pick Costa Rica.
    Given the choice of letting somebody move here from either Costa Rica or El Salvador, I’d say jump ball. Depends on the individual person, not the country of origin.
    Where your buddy wants to retire hardly seems relevant at all.
    I’m trying to figure out what point it is that you’re actually trying to make.
    We should restrict immigration to only folks with desirable resumes?
    We should restrict immigration to only from developed countries, or only countries with some baseline of functional government?
    Maybe you could be clearer about what it is you’re trying to say.

  243. Which yes, does rather suggest that for Trump it is a skin color thing.
    I’m willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt and say he’s simply pig ignorant, and is no more or less racist than the average pig-ignorant 70 year old white guy from Queens.

  244. Which yes, does rather suggest that for Trump it is a skin color thing.
    I’m willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt and say he’s simply pig ignorant, and is no more or less racist than the average pig-ignorant 70 year old white guy from Queens.

  247. here is a funny anecdote.
    for various reasons, the company i work for has many employees from other countries. many south asians, many hispanic latins, many russians.
    one guy i work with is from st petersburg. there’s a pretty large russian community in my area, dating mostly from the 80’s and 90’s, but with immigration still contuing today.
    when my buddy got here, he spent some time in a big-ish local city, formerly a manufacturing hub, nowadays not so much. locals will know it as the city where you never come out the way you went in.
    it’s a place that’s seen better times, but is not particularly better or worse than many former industrial cities in the northeast.
    my friend couldn’t believe such a horrible, run-down, dangerous place existed in the US of A.
    sh*tholes everywhere, i guess.

  248. here is a funny anecdote.
    for various reasons, the company i work for has many employees from other countries. many south asians, many hispanic latins, many russians.
    one guy i work with is from st petersburg. there’s a pretty large russian community in my area, dating mostly from the 80’s and 90’s, but with immigration still contuing today.
    when my buddy got here, he spent some time in a big-ish local city, formerly a manufacturing hub, nowadays not so much. locals will know it as the city where you never come out the way you went in.
    it’s a place that’s seen better times, but is not particularly better or worse than many former industrial cities in the northeast.
    my friend couldn’t believe such a horrible, run-down, dangerous place existed in the US of A.
    sh*tholes everywhere, i guess.

  249. I don’t have a transcript of Trump’s comments. Assuming the reports are true – and at this point I have little reason to believe otherwise – they have as much to do with sensible immigration policy as “Excuse me, your water fountain is over there, Sir.” has to do with proper hydration.
    And I dunno how to quantify such things, but they both seem pretty obscene to me.
    While I’m on about things I don’t know…
    What does incompetence and unfitness have to look like if this isn’t it? 25.4 may as well be an impact-activated parachute.

  250. I don’t have a transcript of Trump’s comments. Assuming the reports are true – and at this point I have little reason to believe otherwise – they have as much to do with sensible immigration policy as “Excuse me, your water fountain is over there, Sir.” has to do with proper hydration.
    And I dunno how to quantify such things, but they both seem pretty obscene to me.
    While I’m on about things I don’t know…
    What does incompetence and unfitness have to look like if this isn’t it? 25.4 may as well be an impact-activated parachute.

  251. And I dunno how to quantify such things, but they both seem pretty obscene to me.
    Me too.
    What’s happening here is depressing beyond belief. Actual tears emerge at times. It has been this way since the evening of November 8, 2016. I’m coping by fixating on crazy little hobbies of mine. And checking in here, of course. And I worked on Virginia elections (yay!). And I will again in 2018 (!). Volunteering for local immigrants in addition to the usual 45 minutes a week of Meals on Wheels that I’ve done for years. Not much else that I have the creativity to do since I still have to work for a living.
    Careful focus on stuff that is inherently interesting is how I’m getting through this. Everything matters.

  252. And I dunno how to quantify such things, but they both seem pretty obscene to me.
    Me too.
    What’s happening here is depressing beyond belief. Actual tears emerge at times. It has been this way since the evening of November 8, 2016. I’m coping by fixating on crazy little hobbies of mine. And checking in here, of course. And I worked on Virginia elections (yay!). And I will again in 2018 (!). Volunteering for local immigrants in addition to the usual 45 minutes a week of Meals on Wheels that I’ve done for years. Not much else that I have the creativity to do since I still have to work for a living.
    Careful focus on stuff that is inherently interesting is how I’m getting through this. Everything matters.

  253. I just damned the governess. Apologies for taking so long, but am in the hospital.
    As for my take on shithole countries, it seems that anyone with any sense of history would realize that country becomes ‘crappy’ not because of the people who live in it, but because of larger historical factors. Given that Haiti (for example) is the first example of a successful slave revolution and was only permitted to remain free after they pay France 9 million gold francs.
    Following Haiti’s independence, former French slave-owners submitted detailed tabulations of their losses to the French government, with line items for each of “their” slaves that had been “lost” with Haitian independence. In 1825, the French King, Charles X, demanded that Haiti pay an “independence debt” to compensate former colonists for the slaves who had won their freedom in the Haitian Revolution. With warships stationed along the Haitian coast backing up the French demand, France insisted that Haiti pay its former coloniser 150m gold francs – ten times the fledgling black nation’s total annual revenues.
    Under threat of a French military invasion that aimed at the re-enslavement of the population, the Haitian government had little choice but to agree to pay. Haiti’s government was also forced to finance the debt through loans from a single French bank, which capitalised on its monopoly by gauging Haiti with exorbitant interest rates and fees.
    The original sum of the indemnity was subsequently reduced, but Haiti still disbursed 90m gold francs to France. This second price the French exacted for the independence Haitians had won in battle was, even in 1825, not lawful. When the original indemnity was imposed by the French king, the slave trade was technically illegal; such a transaction – exchanging cash for human lives valued as slave labour – represented a gross violation of both French and international laws. And Haiti was still paying off this “independence debt” in 1947 – 140 years after the abolition of the slave trade and 85 years after the emancipation proclamation.
    One would think that the French would have wanted the Statue of Liberty to be built Port-au-Prince harbor, given that the Haitian people value it so much
    A lawsuit launched by the Haitian government to recuperate these extorted funds was aborted prematurely in 2004, with the French-backed overthrow of the government that had had the temerity to point out that France “extorted this money from Haiti by force and… should give it back to us so that we can build primary schools, primary healthcare, water systems and roads”.
    Ah, yes, but that’s the French you might say. But after Kennedy’s assassination, the US propped up Duvalier because we hated Castro so much. So yes, Haiti may be a shithole country, but the reason for it is not because of the people, it’s because of targeted foreign policies that have left the country broken and unable to cope. But if you believe that Trump was sensitive to those historical currents, go hang out at the America First! forum at reddit.

  254. I just damned the governess. Apologies for taking so long, but am in the hospital.
    As for my take on shithole countries, it seems that anyone with any sense of history would realize that country becomes ‘crappy’ not because of the people who live in it, but because of larger historical factors. Given that Haiti (for example) is the first example of a successful slave revolution and was only permitted to remain free after they pay France 9 million gold francs.
    Following Haiti’s independence, former French slave-owners submitted detailed tabulations of their losses to the French government, with line items for each of “their” slaves that had been “lost” with Haitian independence. In 1825, the French King, Charles X, demanded that Haiti pay an “independence debt” to compensate former colonists for the slaves who had won their freedom in the Haitian Revolution. With warships stationed along the Haitian coast backing up the French demand, France insisted that Haiti pay its former coloniser 150m gold francs – ten times the fledgling black nation’s total annual revenues.
    Under threat of a French military invasion that aimed at the re-enslavement of the population, the Haitian government had little choice but to agree to pay. Haiti’s government was also forced to finance the debt through loans from a single French bank, which capitalised on its monopoly by gauging Haiti with exorbitant interest rates and fees.
    The original sum of the indemnity was subsequently reduced, but Haiti still disbursed 90m gold francs to France. This second price the French exacted for the independence Haitians had won in battle was, even in 1825, not lawful. When the original indemnity was imposed by the French king, the slave trade was technically illegal; such a transaction – exchanging cash for human lives valued as slave labour – represented a gross violation of both French and international laws. And Haiti was still paying off this “independence debt” in 1947 – 140 years after the abolition of the slave trade and 85 years after the emancipation proclamation.
    One would think that the French would have wanted the Statue of Liberty to be built Port-au-Prince harbor, given that the Haitian people value it so much
    A lawsuit launched by the Haitian government to recuperate these extorted funds was aborted prematurely in 2004, with the French-backed overthrow of the government that had had the temerity to point out that France “extorted this money from Haiti by force and… should give it back to us so that we can build primary schools, primary healthcare, water systems and roads”.
    Ah, yes, but that’s the French you might say. But after Kennedy’s assassination, the US propped up Duvalier because we hated Castro so much. So yes, Haiti may be a shithole country, but the reason for it is not because of the people, it’s because of targeted foreign policies that have left the country broken and unable to cope. But if you believe that Trump was sensitive to those historical currents, go hang out at the America First! forum at reddit.

  257. That ‘can you tell me where the transcript is’ was probably the straw for me. If you can’t be bothered to google up something, don’t bother.

  258. That ‘can you tell me where the transcript is’ was probably the straw for me. If you can’t be bothered to google up something, don’t bother.

  259. [snark]Give The Donald a chance to redeem himself by asking him, whether he would also welcome those tent-dwelling yodelling* reindeer herders with the funny hats from the Northern part of Norway, who are so superstitious that they never mention bears by name! They should be easy to retrain to herd Tru Merkin caribou, a ressource criminally underutilized due to Obama’s sabotage of sound use(TM) of the Arctic**[/snark]
    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joik
    **btw, where there really only two tics on the Arc?

  260. [snark]Give The Donald a chance to redeem himself by asking him, whether he would also welcome those tent-dwelling yodelling* reindeer herders with the funny hats from the Northern part of Norway, who are so superstitious that they never mention bears by name! They should be easy to retrain to herd Tru Merkin caribou, a ressource criminally underutilized due to Obama’s sabotage of sound use(TM) of the Arctic**[/snark]
    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joik
    **btw, where there really only two tics on the Arc?

  261. For the record, I have at times seriously considered moving to Norway for work (not just for the holidays as I used to).
    At least they still have snow in the winter 😉
    All those digestive final product cavity lands mentioned would be far too warm for this heat sensitive German and replacing their population with Aryan inbreds* would even lower their appeal.
    *btw, studied racists of the early 20th century considered Scandinavians to be racially spoiled since the Viking age for importing too many celtic and slavic slaves and not abstaining from producing offspring with them.

  262. For the record, I have at times seriously considered moving to Norway for work (not just for the holidays as I used to).
    At least they still have snow in the winter 😉
    All those digestive final product cavity lands mentioned would be far too warm for this heat sensitive German and replacing their population with Aryan inbreds* would even lower their appeal.
    *btw, studied racists of the early 20th century considered Scandinavians to be racially spoiled since the Viking age for importing too many celtic and slavic slaves and not abstaining from producing offspring with them.

  263. Cleek, give me an honest answer, if forced to choose would you rather live in Haiti or Norway?
    a dishonest question doesn’t deserve an honest answer.
    have some pie.

  264. Cleek, give me an honest answer, if forced to choose would you rather live in Haiti or Norway?
    a dishonest question doesn’t deserve an honest answer.
    have some pie.

  269. sapient,
    Thanks. Your advice is well received. I should find a way to channel the negative into something positive – before it devours me. But if I’m being honest, rage as a place-holder for hope feels necessary right now. I’m not sure I should (or want to) let it go.

  270. sapient,
    Thanks. Your advice is well received. I should find a way to channel the negative into something positive – before it devours me. But if I’m being honest, rage as a place-holder for hope feels necessary right now. I’m not sure I should (or want to) let it go.

  271. russell, in the sense of latin ‘nomen’, i.e. term referring specifically to something/body. ‘Bear’ is a taboo word (I have even read that ‘bear’ itself is a term used by our indogermanic ancestors* to avoid the now forgotten ‘true name’ of said animal). To use it means calling the being itself. Ursine visitations are considered by most to be less than ideal events in most circumstances. Think Candyman in fur.
    *biological or cultural (referring to language)

  272. russell, in the sense of latin ‘nomen’, i.e. term referring specifically to something/body. ‘Bear’ is a taboo word (I have even read that ‘bear’ itself is a term used by our indogermanic ancestors* to avoid the now forgotten ‘true name’ of said animal). To use it means calling the being itself. Ursine visitations are considered by most to be less than ideal events in most circumstances. Think Candyman in fur.
    *biological or cultural (referring to language)

  273. I was just making a joke. Next time, I hope to fail better. 🙂
    If I lived near bears and not saying the word “bear” would keep them away from me, the word would never pass my lips.
    We’re mostly at the top of the food chain, but we do have a few peers.
    racists of the early 20th century considered Scandinavians to be racially spoiled since the Viking age
    Racists can be very hard to please. Fortunately for them, they did not have to evaluate the relative merits of Scandinavians of the Viking Age in person.
    It must be exhausting to put so much energy into proving that you and yours are the ones with the special sauce.

  274. I was just making a joke. Next time, I hope to fail better. 🙂
    If I lived near bears and not saying the word “bear” would keep them away from me, the word would never pass my lips.
    We’re mostly at the top of the food chain, but we do have a few peers.
    racists of the early 20th century considered Scandinavians to be racially spoiled since the Viking age
    Racists can be very hard to please. Fortunately for them, they did not have to evaluate the relative merits of Scandinavians of the Viking Age in person.
    It must be exhausting to put so much energy into proving that you and yours are the ones with the special sauce.

  275. Racists of the early 20th century thought they had science backing them up. There was a lot of research and scholarly studies on the differences between the races.

  276. Racists of the early 20th century thought they had science backing them up. There was a lot of research and scholarly studies on the differences between the races.

  277. I assumed it was a joke but given that I was taking a short break from Latin homework when I read it and this (the contextual meaning of nomen) is a notorious stumbling block I could not keep myself from posting this pedantry. 😉
    Lisa Simpson had this miraculous rock scaring dangerous animals away with its presence alone. Maybe we should get a copy.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2W0sq9ddU
    If it works against tigers, it should also have some effect on lions and bears.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NecK4MwOfeI
    The are good friends after all
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUg9E41ImzY

  278. I assumed it was a joke but given that I was taking a short break from Latin homework when I read it and this (the contextual meaning of nomen) is a notorious stumbling block I could not keep myself from posting this pedantry. 😉
    Lisa Simpson had this miraculous rock scaring dangerous animals away with its presence alone. Maybe we should get a copy.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2W0sq9ddU
    If it works against tigers, it should also have some effect on lions and bears.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NecK4MwOfeI
    The are good friends after all
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUg9E41ImzY

  279. Racists of the early 20th century thought they had science backing them up
    It’s amazing the things that science can prove, when you already know what answer you want.

  280. Racists of the early 20th century thought they had science backing them up
    It’s amazing the things that science can prove, when you already know what answer you want.

  281. CharlesWT, they would have a field day with the DNA survey of Iceland showing that the vast majority of women in the early days of settlement were celtic (=slaves taken from the British Isles by Norwegians on their way to Iceland). Same with St.Thomas Aquinas and the fact that all males were females in the beginning of embryonal development thus ‘proving’ that females are defective males that did not achieve completion as he claimed.
    With a little bit of sophistry everything is possible (apology to the original sophists that got so unfairly maligned by Plato).

  282. CharlesWT, they would have a field day with the DNA survey of Iceland showing that the vast majority of women in the early days of settlement were celtic (=slaves taken from the British Isles by Norwegians on their way to Iceland). Same with St.Thomas Aquinas and the fact that all males were females in the beginning of embryonal development thus ‘proving’ that females are defective males that did not achieve completion as he claimed.
    With a little bit of sophistry everything is possible (apology to the original sophists that got so unfairly maligned by Plato).

  285. It’s amazing the things that science can prove, when you already know what answer you want.
    Today, we have eliminated the middleman. No appeals to science needed. (Indeed, the whole concept of science rejected.) So much quicker and easier to just assert your conclusion and sneer at anyone with the temerity to disagree.

  286. It’s amazing the things that science can prove, when you already know what answer you want.
    Today, we have eliminated the middleman. No appeals to science needed. (Indeed, the whole concept of science rejected.) So much quicker and easier to just assert your conclusion and sneer at anyone with the temerity to disagree.

  287. This past Friday the SCOTUS accepted two more redistricting cases, these from Texas. I’m looking forward to all four decisions — I love it when the generally innumerate Court has to deal with statistics.

  288. This past Friday the SCOTUS accepted two more redistricting cases, these from Texas. I’m looking forward to all four decisions — I love it when the generally innumerate Court has to deal with statistics.

  289. Ah, but will they deal with the statistics? Or will they attempt to make the decision on a philosophical basis, without actually considering the numbers?
    I’m betting at least some will go for the latter.

  290. Ah, but will they deal with the statistics? Or will they attempt to make the decision on a philosophical basis, without actually considering the numbers?
    I’m betting at least some will go for the latter.

  291. Me too, wj.
    Remember Roberts dismissing numbers as “sociological gobbledygook?”
    It is, IMO, a national embarrassment that the Chief Justice apparently is incapable of understanding a fairly straightforward statistical argument, and therefore thinks it should be ignored.

  292. Me too, wj.
    Remember Roberts dismissing numbers as “sociological gobbledygook?”
    It is, IMO, a national embarrassment that the Chief Justice apparently is incapable of understanding a fairly straightforward statistical argument, and therefore thinks it should be ignored.

  293. The current Court majority has no problem abjuring historical and/or legal precedent or the clear meaning of English words, so political prejudice it is. No need to delve into philosophy, much less statistics.

  294. The current Court majority has no problem abjuring historical and/or legal precedent or the clear meaning of English words, so political prejudice it is. No need to delve into philosophy, much less statistics.

  295. It is a national embarrassment when John “lawless” Roberts, Chief Justice, can’t be bothered with the 2nd clause of the 15th amendment when it gets in the way of his racist voter-surpression schemes.

  296. It is a national embarrassment when John “lawless” Roberts, Chief Justice, can’t be bothered with the 2nd clause of the 15th amendment when it gets in the way of his racist voter-surpression schemes.

  299. Ah, but will they deal with the statistics?
    The district court in Wisconsin has left them little choice. The court there didn’t say that the efficiency gap was the right measure; they did say that some statistical test was a sufficient measure to determine unconstitutional gerrymandering. The efficiency gap applied to Maryland will say it’s a gerrymander; applied to North Carolina, if that case is accepted down the road a bit, the efficiency gap will say it’s a gerrymander.
    If they won’t accept statistics, then we’re in for a steady stream of cases, because like pornography, “we’ll know it when we see it.”
    The Cross-State Air Pollution Rule decision may be informative. There, the Court said that there is some cross-state formula that meets constitutional muster — it might as well be this one, we can’t keep sending it back to the DC Circuit court forever. Kennedy has indicated that there is probably a statistical standard that meets constitutional muster — if not the efficiency gap, what?

  300. Ah, but will they deal with the statistics?
    The district court in Wisconsin has left them little choice. The court there didn’t say that the efficiency gap was the right measure; they did say that some statistical test was a sufficient measure to determine unconstitutional gerrymandering. The efficiency gap applied to Maryland will say it’s a gerrymander; applied to North Carolina, if that case is accepted down the road a bit, the efficiency gap will say it’s a gerrymander.
    If they won’t accept statistics, then we’re in for a steady stream of cases, because like pornography, “we’ll know it when we see it.”
    The Cross-State Air Pollution Rule decision may be informative. There, the Court said that there is some cross-state formula that meets constitutional muster — it might as well be this one, we can’t keep sending it back to the DC Circuit court forever. Kennedy has indicated that there is probably a statistical standard that meets constitutional muster — if not the efficiency gap, what?

  301. Michael,
    I hope you are correct. I have little confidence in the court’s ability to deal with numbers.
    I also am a bit mystified at suggestions, like one Roberts made, about taking redistricting “away from democracy.”
    The whole point of gerrymandering is to take elections away from democracy. Is that really hard to grasp?

  302. Michael,
    I hope you are correct. I have little confidence in the court’s ability to deal with numbers.
    I also am a bit mystified at suggestions, like one Roberts made, about taking redistricting “away from democracy.”
    The whole point of gerrymandering is to take elections away from democracy. Is that really hard to grasp?

  303. Yeah, I read LGM. This was fantastic, as good an article on Martin Luther King as I have ever read.
    Brandon Terry on MLK
    At one point Terry does criticize Coates. It may be just Coates character and background, and should be accepted, but his identification with Baldwin rather than King, Malcolm, DuBois or Fanon is indicative, and needs criticism. Cornel West and Adolph Reed are absolutely right about him.
    2) A little belatedly, I am revisiting the Russian Revolution. I will be reading Sheila Fitzgerald, but right now I cannot recommend more highly Alexander Rabinowitch slightly outdated trilogy on the Bolsheviks. It looks at 1917 in Petrograd day by day, even hour by hour, and exlains why and how the Bolsheviks won not only in terms of strategy and tactics, but especially in terms of contingencies and adaptation to forces outside of their control. And does so in a very readable even exciting prose.
    “The July uprising was initiated in the First Machine Gun Regiment. Pinning down the precise time when plans for the rebellion began within the regiment itself is difficult, but it appears clear that this occurred well before the July 3 cabinet crisis often cited by Western and Soviet sources as one of the uprising’s major precipitants. As was noted in the previous chapter, the Kerensky offen-
    sive threatened many garrison units with immediate transfer to the front and only after the exertion of pressure from the Petrograd Soviet and the Bolshevik Party leadership was a soldiers’ rebellion averted during the earliest days of the Russian advance. At that time members of the First Machine Gun Regiment canceled preparations for an immediate uprising, satisfying themselves with a repudiation of their Regimental Committee and a declaration of their refusal to fulfill further Provisional Government troop levies.”
    The soldiers in the Petrograd staging ground did not want to die in that fucking war for Britain, America, and France. Kerensky started an offensive June 19, but Kerensky, if he wanted a democratic Russia that was not a pariah to the economic West, really had no choice. But this is what lost the revolution.
    Lenin and the Bolsheviks were cautious and reluctant, but also had no choice but to follow the soldiers (who by this time, with millions dead, were mostly rural peasants, so radicl land reform, opposed by Kerensky and SR, was also critical.)
    Anyway, the applications of 1917 are entirely about adaptability and using local and contingent conditions. That is the point.
    (and the toleration for Forever War is another reason I am no longer a Democrat)

  304. Yeah, I read LGM. This was fantastic, as good an article on Martin Luther King as I have ever read.
    Brandon Terry on MLK
    At one point Terry does criticize Coates. It may be just Coates character and background, and should be accepted, but his identification with Baldwin rather than King, Malcolm, DuBois or Fanon is indicative, and needs criticism. Cornel West and Adolph Reed are absolutely right about him.
    2) A little belatedly, I am revisiting the Russian Revolution. I will be reading Sheila Fitzgerald, but right now I cannot recommend more highly Alexander Rabinowitch slightly outdated trilogy on the Bolsheviks. It looks at 1917 in Petrograd day by day, even hour by hour, and exlains why and how the Bolsheviks won not only in terms of strategy and tactics, but especially in terms of contingencies and adaptation to forces outside of their control. And does so in a very readable even exciting prose.
    “The July uprising was initiated in the First Machine Gun Regiment. Pinning down the precise time when plans for the rebellion began within the regiment itself is difficult, but it appears clear that this occurred well before the July 3 cabinet crisis often cited by Western and Soviet sources as one of the uprising’s major precipitants. As was noted in the previous chapter, the Kerensky offen-
    sive threatened many garrison units with immediate transfer to the front and only after the exertion of pressure from the Petrograd Soviet and the Bolshevik Party leadership was a soldiers’ rebellion averted during the earliest days of the Russian advance. At that time members of the First Machine Gun Regiment canceled preparations for an immediate uprising, satisfying themselves with a repudiation of their Regimental Committee and a declaration of their refusal to fulfill further Provisional Government troop levies.”
    The soldiers in the Petrograd staging ground did not want to die in that fucking war for Britain, America, and France. Kerensky started an offensive June 19, but Kerensky, if he wanted a democratic Russia that was not a pariah to the economic West, really had no choice. But this is what lost the revolution.
    Lenin and the Bolsheviks were cautious and reluctant, but also had no choice but to follow the soldiers (who by this time, with millions dead, were mostly rural peasants, so radicl land reform, opposed by Kerensky and SR, was also critical.)
    Anyway, the applications of 1917 are entirely about adaptability and using local and contingent conditions. That is the point.
    (and the toleration for Forever War is another reason I am no longer a Democrat)

  305. Of course the liberals, bourgeoisie and Social Democrats cheered Kerensky like crazy on June 19th.
    Those who dislike my attitude toward violent revolution should deal with a simple question: Which side would you have been on in Petrograd in 1917? Would you have sided with Kerensky yo ship another million to Galicia to die for foreign relations and Imperial power-sharing? Or would you have been with the armed soldiers and sailors, knowing that resistance would mean violence and civil war?
    From what I read, most here would have shot those deserting country boys dead in the street?
    This is not ancient history. Question came up round 1968 and 1972, and the question is alive now in demands to support the war mongering Democrat or hand the country to Republicans.

  306. Of course the liberals, bourgeoisie and Social Democrats cheered Kerensky like crazy on June 19th.
    Those who dislike my attitude toward violent revolution should deal with a simple question: Which side would you have been on in Petrograd in 1917? Would you have sided with Kerensky yo ship another million to Galicia to die for foreign relations and Imperial power-sharing? Or would you have been with the armed soldiers and sailors, knowing that resistance would mean violence and civil war?
    From what I read, most here would have shot those deserting country boys dead in the street?
    This is not ancient history. Question came up round 1968 and 1972, and the question is alive now in demands to support the war mongering Democrat or hand the country to Republicans.

  307. Which side would you have been on in Petrograd in 1917?
    mostly likely on the side of the road, dead, thanks to all the people who wants everyone else to die for their ideology.

  308. Which side would you have been on in Petrograd in 1917?
    mostly likely on the side of the road, dead, thanks to all the people who wants everyone else to die for their ideology.

  309. Yeah, I read LGM. This was fantastic, as good an article on Martin Luther King as I have ever read.
    Brandon Terry on MLK
    I just finished it. Highly recommended.
    As to 1917 Petrograd, I have no clue what side I would have taken, and in some very important ways, it is not the correct question. That said, Kerensky pretty much ended any chance of a democratic Russia by trying to force a broken country to continue the tragic, utterly futile, and destructive war with Germany.
    Armed revolution may have been a political mistake, but the essential justice of taking up armed resistance at that time and under those circumstances has a good deal of merit.
    As for history of that era, I am still favorably disposed toward the works of that old Trot, Issaac Deutcher.
    Mount bobmore shall be closed for the rest of the day for repairs.

  310. Yeah, I read LGM. This was fantastic, as good an article on Martin Luther King as I have ever read.
    Brandon Terry on MLK
    I just finished it. Highly recommended.
    As to 1917 Petrograd, I have no clue what side I would have taken, and in some very important ways, it is not the correct question. That said, Kerensky pretty much ended any chance of a democratic Russia by trying to force a broken country to continue the tragic, utterly futile, and destructive war with Germany.
    Armed revolution may have been a political mistake, but the essential justice of taking up armed resistance at that time and under those circumstances has a good deal of merit.
    As for history of that era, I am still favorably disposed toward the works of that old Trot, Issaac Deutcher.
    Mount bobmore shall be closed for the rest of the day for repairs.

  315. Really? I can’t imagine how to intuit that, let alone prove it.
    Meanwhile, 1/4 remains the correct answer for 3 random points ON the circle
    Let P,Q and R be arbitrary points in the disk and P’,Q’ and R’ be their respective nearest orthogonal projections on to the circle. Then triangle PQR contains the disk’s center C if and only if triangle P’Q’R’ does.
    (“Only if” is almost trivial. “If” requires showing that if PQR does not contain C there exists a bisection of the disk with P,Q and R all in the same half, implying P’,Q’ and R’ are in that half as well.)
    Hence the probability that PQR contains C is the same as the probability that the triangle formed by three arbitrary points on the circle contains C, namely, 1/4.

  316. Really? I can’t imagine how to intuit that, let alone prove it.
    Meanwhile, 1/4 remains the correct answer for 3 random points ON the circle
    Let P,Q and R be arbitrary points in the disk and P’,Q’ and R’ be their respective nearest orthogonal projections on to the circle. Then triangle PQR contains the disk’s center C if and only if triangle P’Q’R’ does.
    (“Only if” is almost trivial. “If” requires showing that if PQR does not contain C there exists a bisection of the disk with P,Q and R all in the same half, implying P’,Q’ and R’ are in that half as well.)
    Hence the probability that PQR contains C is the same as the probability that the triangle formed by three arbitrary points on the circle contains C, namely, 1/4.

  317. At January 14, 2018 at 03:41 AM I joked that there would be an attempt to redeem Trump by referring to the Sami minority in Norway.
    Looks like the new head of the DHS did just that by denying that Norway was an all-white country. Nothing about funny hats and reindeers though, alas!

  318. At January 14, 2018 at 03:41 AM I joked that there would be an attempt to redeem Trump by referring to the Sami minority in Norway.
    Looks like the new head of the DHS did just that by denying that Norway was an all-white country. Nothing about funny hats and reindeers though, alas!

  319. “the new head of the DHS did just that by denying that Norway was an all-white country. Nothing about funny hats and reindeers though, alas!”
    Some should ask whether they would be in favor of immigration by santaists.

  320. “the new head of the DHS did just that by denying that Norway was an all-white country. Nothing about funny hats and reindeers though, alas!”
    Some should ask whether they would be in favor of immigration by santaists.

  321. Hence the probability that PQR contains C is the same as the probability that the triangle formed by three arbitrary points on the circle contains C, namely, 1/4.
    This seems to me to imply that a given point in the same plane as any three arbitrary points in that plane would have a 1/4 probability of being in the triangle formed by those three arbitrary points.
    Take the given point as the center of a circle in that plane with a radius equal to or greater than the distance to the furthest of the three arbitrary points and you’ve got yourself the same circle question with the same answer. You just have to make the circle as big as it needs to be.
    (Unless I’m missing something. And I do have a non-zero probability of missing something.)

  322. Hence the probability that PQR contains C is the same as the probability that the triangle formed by three arbitrary points on the circle contains C, namely, 1/4.
    This seems to me to imply that a given point in the same plane as any three arbitrary points in that plane would have a 1/4 probability of being in the triangle formed by those three arbitrary points.
    Take the given point as the center of a circle in that plane with a radius equal to or greater than the distance to the furthest of the three arbitrary points and you’ve got yourself the same circle question with the same answer. You just have to make the circle as big as it needs to be.
    (Unless I’m missing something. And I do have a non-zero probability of missing something.)

  323. Another way of putting it is that, for any four arbitrary points in the same plane, there is a 1/4 probability that one of them will lie within a triangle formed by the other three.

  324. Another way of putting it is that, for any four arbitrary points in the same plane, there is a 1/4 probability that one of them will lie within a triangle formed by the other three.

  325. Intuitively, the probability of hsh’s 3:24 points on a plane doesn’t have a shot at being 1/4, while points on the circumference triangle does seem to. But my brain abandoned this particular problem way up thread.

  326. Intuitively, the probability of hsh’s 3:24 points on a plane doesn’t have a shot at being 1/4, while points on the circumference triangle does seem to. But my brain abandoned this particular problem way up thread.

  327. Look at it this way – a plane is infinite, so you can arbitrarily consider any point on it as the center. Take three points at random. Pick two from which to form two lines going through the third. Those two lines will form an angle between 0 and 180 degrees. (Well, two angles, on either side of the third point, but we’re concerned with the one on the side opposite the first two.)
    The average angle over the even probability distribution from 0 degrees to 180 degrees is 90 degrees. A 90-degree takes up 1/4 of the plane.

  328. Look at it this way – a plane is infinite, so you can arbitrarily consider any point on it as the center. Take three points at random. Pick two from which to form two lines going through the third. Those two lines will form an angle between 0 and 180 degrees. (Well, two angles, on either side of the third point, but we’re concerned with the one on the side opposite the first two.)
    The average angle over the even probability distribution from 0 degrees to 180 degrees is 90 degrees. A 90-degree takes up 1/4 of the plane.

  329. To finish that thought, a fourth point would have to be anywhere within the angle formed by projecting lines from the first two points through the third point in order for the third point to be within the triangle formed by the other three points (i.e. first, second, and fourth).

  330. To finish that thought, a fourth point would have to be anywhere within the angle formed by projecting lines from the first two points through the third point in order for the third point to be within the triangle formed by the other three points (i.e. first, second, and fourth).

  335. Of course, mine isn’t really any different from Tony P.’s, except he was looking at one point being the center of a circle and the other three on the circumference. But it’s the same thing, whether they’re on the circle, inside the circle, or just in the same plane.

  336. Of course, mine isn’t really any different from Tony P.’s, except he was looking at one point being the center of a circle and the other three on the circumference. But it’s the same thing, whether they’re on the circle, inside the circle, or just in the same plane.

  337. The notion of choosing a point at random in the plane doesn’t make sense. You can put a uniform probability density function on a disk; you can ‘t do so on the plane.
    If your p.d.f. is radially symmetric about a given point C, then the probability of your triangle containing C will still be 1/4. (In this case it does make sense to think of C as the “center” of the plane.) Lacking this symmetry, it seems very likely that the probability is something different.

  338. The notion of choosing a point at random in the plane doesn’t make sense. You can put a uniform probability density function on a disk; you can ‘t do so on the plane.
    If your p.d.f. is radially symmetric about a given point C, then the probability of your triangle containing C will still be 1/4. (In this case it does make sense to think of C as the “center” of the plane.) Lacking this symmetry, it seems very likely that the probability is something different.

  343. But, but, the triangle in the plane only takes up 1/4 If you assume the first two points are at the infinite edge of the plane. It us true the fourth points probability of being in the angle would be 1/4, but not in the triangle. The citcle is bounded but the plane is not.
    And I’m sure I am wrong, I just don’t understand why yet. Sorry

  344. But, but, the triangle in the plane only takes up 1/4 If you assume the first two points are at the infinite edge of the plane. It us true the fourth points probability of being in the angle would be 1/4, but not in the triangle. The citcle is bounded but the plane is not.
    And I’m sure I am wrong, I just don’t understand why yet. Sorry

  347. I think Ufficio may be right about the uniform probability. (The non-zero probability that I might be missing something applies here.)
    But, that aside, the points don’t have to be at the “edge” of the plane (or, better yet, the circle). The lines extend to infinity (or at least to the edge of the circle if that’s all we care about).
    The fourth point isn’t the one that has to be inside the triange. It’s one of the vertices of the triangle, along with the first two points. The third point (or center of the circle) is the one (possibly) inside the triange. It’s just that fourth point has to be inside the angle (or sector of the circle (as opposed to triangle)) formed by the two lines going through the third point (or center) and the first two points for the third point (or center) to be inside the triangle formed by the first two points and the fourth.
    It would be a lot easier to explain if I could draw in a comment.

  348. I think Ufficio may be right about the uniform probability. (The non-zero probability that I might be missing something applies here.)
    But, that aside, the points don’t have to be at the “edge” of the plane (or, better yet, the circle). The lines extend to infinity (or at least to the edge of the circle if that’s all we care about).
    The fourth point isn’t the one that has to be inside the triange. It’s one of the vertices of the triangle, along with the first two points. The third point (or center of the circle) is the one (possibly) inside the triange. It’s just that fourth point has to be inside the angle (or sector of the circle (as opposed to triangle)) formed by the two lines going through the third point (or center) and the first two points for the third point (or center) to be inside the triangle formed by the first two points and the fourth.
    It would be a lot easier to explain if I could draw in a comment.

  349. “The fourth point isn’t the one that has to be inside the triange”
    I now know why I was confused. I thought the 4th point had to be in the triangle. I now formally accept your explanation because I’m sure you could draw it.

  350. “The fourth point isn’t the one that has to be inside the triange”
    I now know why I was confused. I thought the 4th point had to be in the triangle. I now formally accept your explanation because I’m sure you could draw it.

  351. Someone riddle me this.
    A bill to avert a Federal government shutdown is needed by Friday. Democrats want something done about DACA. Among other things.
    So far, what the Republican leadership appears willing to give, in exchange for Democratic votes, is a CHIP renewal — which is also among the things that Democrats want done. For what is, quite simply, just a one month spending authorization.
    So answer me this. Why not take the CHIP renewal? And catch DACA in the next couple of weeks? Yeah, it would be good to get both now. But sometimes it makes sense to take half a loaf now, and the other half tomorrow.

  352. Someone riddle me this.
    A bill to avert a Federal government shutdown is needed by Friday. Democrats want something done about DACA. Among other things.
    So far, what the Republican leadership appears willing to give, in exchange for Democratic votes, is a CHIP renewal — which is also among the things that Democrats want done. For what is, quite simply, just a one month spending authorization.
    So answer me this. Why not take the CHIP renewal? And catch DACA in the next couple of weeks? Yeah, it would be good to get both now. But sometimes it makes sense to take half a loaf now, and the other half tomorrow.

  353. Because the Dems are sick of getting pushed around and are willing to say screw you/have been emboldened by [insert developments here] and now want to take advantage of what they view as an ideal time to get back at the Republicans?
    How one spins that probably depends on which side you are on, and I’d aim for the former rather than the latter.

  354. Because the Dems are sick of getting pushed around and are willing to say screw you/have been emboldened by [insert developments here] and now want to take advantage of what they view as an ideal time to get back at the Republicans?
    How one spins that probably depends on which side you are on, and I’d aim for the former rather than the latter.

  357. So answer me this. Why not take the CHIP renewal?
    This pitched battle is over a mere $15billion/year. In other words, peanuts. The GOP, claiming they support the program before letting it die, could authorize it without one Democratic vote.
    Since the GOP can’t get it’s act together and pass stuff (like funding the ‘effing government) on their own, the Dems have some leverage not generally accorded the minority party. Therefore they feel they should push their position to the max, and now is the time to do so, not later….because as you know, things change.
    I guess we will know in less that 48 hours.
    how’d we get four points?
    The punters moved the line.

  358. So answer me this. Why not take the CHIP renewal?
    This pitched battle is over a mere $15billion/year. In other words, peanuts. The GOP, claiming they support the program before letting it die, could authorize it without one Democratic vote.
    Since the GOP can’t get it’s act together and pass stuff (like funding the ‘effing government) on their own, the Dems have some leverage not generally accorded the minority party. Therefore they feel they should push their position to the max, and now is the time to do so, not later….because as you know, things change.
    I guess we will know in less that 48 hours.
    how’d we get four points?
    The punters moved the line.

  359. hsh,
    Some wag once pointed out that infinity gets really big toward the end.
    When you pick 3 random points “on the plane”, the very fact that you “picked” them implies that they are separated by finite distances. That means they define a triangle of finite area. “The plane” has infinite area. Does that have some bearing on the probability=1/4 question?
    Two things you might enjoy:
    1) This 3blue1brown video which gives an off-beat solution of the 3-points-on-a-circle problem — as a mere preliminary to the analogous 4-points-on-a-sphere problem.
    2) This proof that “every number is interesting”:
    Assume a least-interesting number exists.
    That makes it interesting.
    QED
    –TP

  360. hsh,
    Some wag once pointed out that infinity gets really big toward the end.
    When you pick 3 random points “on the plane”, the very fact that you “picked” them implies that they are separated by finite distances. That means they define a triangle of finite area. “The plane” has infinite area. Does that have some bearing on the probability=1/4 question?
    Two things you might enjoy:
    1) This 3blue1brown video which gives an off-beat solution of the 3-points-on-a-circle problem — as a mere preliminary to the analogous 4-points-on-a-sphere problem.
    2) This proof that “every number is interesting”:
    Assume a least-interesting number exists.
    That makes it interesting.
    QED
    –TP

  361. It’s as well to steer clear of arguments involving infinity if you can. In particular, how do you choose a random point from an infinite range?
    The straightforward argument for a triangle inside the circle is to move the vertexes to the nearest point on the perimeter (ie move them outwards along a radius). This operation moves each side of the triangle away from the centre. Since the sides cannot cross the centre as they move, the centre remains inside or outside the triangle.
    Now refer to the solution for three points on the perimeter of a circle.
    (I think someone said something like this already.)
    Of course, one can draw any size of circle, to contain any triangle, so in the end the circle exists only to provide a definition of a random point.

  362. It’s as well to steer clear of arguments involving infinity if you can. In particular, how do you choose a random point from an infinite range?
    The straightforward argument for a triangle inside the circle is to move the vertexes to the nearest point on the perimeter (ie move them outwards along a radius). This operation moves each side of the triangle away from the centre. Since the sides cannot cross the centre as they move, the centre remains inside or outside the triangle.
    Now refer to the solution for three points on the perimeter of a circle.
    (I think someone said something like this already.)
    Of course, one can draw any size of circle, to contain any triangle, so in the end the circle exists only to provide a definition of a random point.

  363. My question about the cirlce was kind of a joke. Think of the size of the circle as the number of points inside it. (Let’s draw it up in AutoCAD and put the scale as “1 inch = infinity points.”)
    I play it fast and loose when it comes to infinity. That’s why I’m an engineer and not a mathematician. I take the concept of mathematical induction to its logical conclusion, so to speak.

  364. My question about the cirlce was kind of a joke. Think of the size of the circle as the number of points inside it. (Let’s draw it up in AutoCAD and put the scale as “1 inch = infinity points.”)
    I play it fast and loose when it comes to infinity. That’s why I’m an engineer and not a mathematician. I take the concept of mathematical induction to its logical conclusion, so to speak.

  365. The benefit of my misguided musings is that they led me to clearly visualize the problem in a way I hadn’t before. What matters is not how far the points are from the center of the circle, but their angular positions.

  366. The benefit of my misguided musings is that they led me to clearly visualize the problem in a way I hadn’t before. What matters is not how far the points are from the center of the circle, but their angular positions.

  369. Do you have to take a mathematical discussion down to the lowest common denominator?
    I should give Tony P. and Uffico credit for getting me 90% of the way to a full understanding of the problem. I wouldn’t have gotten there on my own, at least not nearly as quickly (defining “quickly” very loosely).

  370. Do you have to take a mathematical discussion down to the lowest common denominator?
    I should give Tony P. and Uffico credit for getting me 90% of the way to a full understanding of the problem. I wouldn’t have gotten there on my own, at least not nearly as quickly (defining “quickly” very loosely).

  371. I am still puzzled, probably because of what pro bono says about infinity. Jaynes says in his probability book that I haven’t read that you should always reason from finite cases and then carefully define how you go to infinity if you do that at all.
    Anyway, if you pick three random points in a plane A, B, and D and ask for the chance that a fourth point C ( for center when we later invoke circles) is inside it, the answer is zero stated that way because any triangle is finite and the plane is infinite. But if you use the point from set A,B, and D which is furthest from C to define the radius of a circle then maybe the argument for 1/ 4 goes through, if you limit yourself to points in the circle and say that the probability of getting a point on the circumference is equal to the probability of a point on the radius that goes from C out to the circumference. Not happy with that.

  372. I am still puzzled, probably because of what pro bono says about infinity. Jaynes says in his probability book that I haven’t read that you should always reason from finite cases and then carefully define how you go to infinity if you do that at all.
    Anyway, if you pick three random points in a plane A, B, and D and ask for the chance that a fourth point C ( for center when we later invoke circles) is inside it, the answer is zero stated that way because any triangle is finite and the plane is infinite. But if you use the point from set A,B, and D which is furthest from C to define the radius of a circle then maybe the argument for 1/ 4 goes through, if you limit yourself to points in the circle and say that the probability of getting a point on the circumference is equal to the probability of a point on the radius that goes from C out to the circumference. Not happy with that.

  373. I suppose it is a symmetry argument. You assume that he pdf inside the circle is uniform over the area and, well, I am not completely sure in my head that a uniform distribution over the circumference lets you slide points along the radius and make the same argument but I guess because of symmetry it might. Have to talk myself into it.

  374. I suppose it is a symmetry argument. You assume that he pdf inside the circle is uniform over the area and, well, I am not completely sure in my head that a uniform distribution over the circumference lets you slide points along the radius and make the same argument but I guess because of symmetry it might. Have to talk myself into it.

  375. The argument assumes that if you describe the position of each vertex using polar co-ordinates from the centre of the circle, all angles are equally likely.

  376. The argument assumes that if you describe the position of each vertex using polar co-ordinates from the centre of the circle, all angles are equally likely.

  377. I mean, you are going from a probability per length to a probability per area if you invoke the interior. If you define points on a given radius as being equivalent in its probability to the point on the circumference then it is in effect still a density defined in terms of length ( or angle).
    But maybe the symmetry gets around that. Yep, still confused. I have to do some things though, so maybe I will come back later.

  378. I mean, you are going from a probability per length to a probability per area if you invoke the interior. If you define points on a given radius as being equivalent in its probability to the point on the circumference then it is in effect still a density defined in terms of length ( or angle).
    But maybe the symmetry gets around that. Yep, still confused. I have to do some things though, so maybe I will come back later.

  379. As far as the infinite plane is concerned, I visualized it as first picking two of the vertices of the triange. Then picking the point potentially to be inside the triangle yet to be defined. Once you have that, you have an angle of x degrees projecting outward from the third point. That angle is infinite in area, so the way I was looking at it, a fourth point picked to finish the triangle has a probability of x/360 of ending up inside that angle.
    This may well be nonsensical when considering an infinite plane, but I think it’s utterly sensible when considering a finite circle. It’s also why the radial positions of the triangle’s vertices don’t matter, only their angular positions. You end up considering the same angle regardless of where the first two vertices are radially. And that angle projects out from the center to the outer circumference, opposite the first two vertices, so the third vertex can be anywhere in that sector of the circle for the center to be inside the triange.

  380. As far as the infinite plane is concerned, I visualized it as first picking two of the vertices of the triange. Then picking the point potentially to be inside the triangle yet to be defined. Once you have that, you have an angle of x degrees projecting outward from the third point. That angle is infinite in area, so the way I was looking at it, a fourth point picked to finish the triangle has a probability of x/360 of ending up inside that angle.
    This may well be nonsensical when considering an infinite plane, but I think it’s utterly sensible when considering a finite circle. It’s also why the radial positions of the triangle’s vertices don’t matter, only their angular positions. You end up considering the same angle regardless of where the first two vertices are radially. And that angle projects out from the center to the outer circumference, opposite the first two vertices, so the third vertex can be anywhere in that sector of the circle for the center to be inside the triange.

  381. If you like, forget the circle and just draw three radial lines from the centre point, at random angles. Then choose three points at arbitrary distances along the three radial lines (if you like you can use a random distribution weighted so that the points are equally distributed by area, up to some maximum radius). Draw a triangle between these three points.
    Look at the three angles between the three radial lines going clockwise (or widdershins, if you prefer). If all three angles are less than 180 degrees, the triangle includes the centre. If one is more than 180 degrees, it doesn’t.
    What’s the probability that none of the three angles is greater than 180 degrees? Look at the (smaller) angle between the first two radial lines you drew. If the angle between them is vanishingly small, the probability is zero. If the angle is arbitrarily close to 180 degrees, the probability is half. For angles in between, it varies linearly between zero and half, so on average it’s a quarter.

  382. If you like, forget the circle and just draw three radial lines from the centre point, at random angles. Then choose three points at arbitrary distances along the three radial lines (if you like you can use a random distribution weighted so that the points are equally distributed by area, up to some maximum radius). Draw a triangle between these three points.
    Look at the three angles between the three radial lines going clockwise (or widdershins, if you prefer). If all three angles are less than 180 degrees, the triangle includes the centre. If one is more than 180 degrees, it doesn’t.
    What’s the probability that none of the three angles is greater than 180 degrees? Look at the (smaller) angle between the first two radial lines you drew. If the angle between them is vanishingly small, the probability is zero. If the angle is arbitrarily close to 180 degrees, the probability is half. For angles in between, it varies linearly between zero and half, so on average it’s a quarter.

  387. I thought of anither way to formulate what is bugging me. Take an area. Or rather, take several different areas, one of which is a circle. For each of these areas, pick three random points inside the area which will define a triangle. Now do this a zillion times Monte Carlo style. What is the average area of the triangle expressed as a fraction of the total area? That is a proxy for asking what is the chance that a triangle formed by three random points will contain a fourth random point.
    The areas have to be convex, if I am using the term correctly. I mean the three random points must form a triangle whose area is contained inside the larger area. Would you get the same answer for various shapes? Would it be 1/4? If so, then you say that the chance that three arbitrary points define a triangle which contains a fourth is 1/4.
    If I understand things correctly, which is not at all certain, the arguments in this thread depend on the fourth point being treated as the center of a circle. But if all four points are picked at random in a predefined area does the 1/ 4 answer still hold?

  388. I thought of anither way to formulate what is bugging me. Take an area. Or rather, take several different areas, one of which is a circle. For each of these areas, pick three random points inside the area which will define a triangle. Now do this a zillion times Monte Carlo style. What is the average area of the triangle expressed as a fraction of the total area? That is a proxy for asking what is the chance that a triangle formed by three random points will contain a fourth random point.
    The areas have to be convex, if I am using the term correctly. I mean the three random points must form a triangle whose area is contained inside the larger area. Would you get the same answer for various shapes? Would it be 1/4? If so, then you say that the chance that three arbitrary points define a triangle which contains a fourth is 1/4.
    If I understand things correctly, which is not at all certain, the arguments in this thread depend on the fourth point being treated as the center of a circle. But if all four points are picked at random in a predefined area does the 1/ 4 answer still hold?

  389. Thought about it further. Pick out one point. Then pick three at random to define the triangle. Is the chance that the first point can be found in the triangle going to change as you move towards the perimeter of the area? Yeah. Seems intuitive. If it was very close to the perimeter it drops towards zero. The center should have the best chance, and so the average area of the triangles should be less than 1/ 4.
    If that is right then if you want to talk about entire planes I suppose t makes sense to imagine a given point as the center of a gigantic circle.
    Gonna shut up now.

  390. Thought about it further. Pick out one point. Then pick three at random to define the triangle. Is the chance that the first point can be found in the triangle going to change as you move towards the perimeter of the area? Yeah. Seems intuitive. If it was very close to the perimeter it drops towards zero. The center should have the best chance, and so the average area of the triangles should be less than 1/ 4.
    If that is right then if you want to talk about entire planes I suppose t makes sense to imagine a given point as the center of a gigantic circle.
    Gonna shut up now.

  391. The original problem was about the probability of the center of a circle being inside a triangle formed from 3 points randomly chosen on (or in) that circle. It wasn’t about a fourth random point being inside a random triangle.
    It was my offshoot of that problem that concerned 4 random points on a plane (since there’s no true center).

  392. The original problem was about the probability of the center of a circle being inside a triangle formed from 3 points randomly chosen on (or in) that circle. It wasn’t about a fourth random point being inside a random triangle.
    It was my offshoot of that problem that concerned 4 random points on a plane (since there’s no true center).

  393. Just a minor point: three random points on a plane define a circle (where all three points are on the circumference).
    Because there’s no preferred coordinate system, you can always move the circle so that the center is at the origin (x=0,y=0), rotate so that “point #1” is on the x-axis, and scale (or define length units), so that the circle is of radius=1.

  394. Just a minor point: three random points on a plane define a circle (where all three points are on the circumference).
    Because there’s no preferred coordinate system, you can always move the circle so that the center is at the origin (x=0,y=0), rotate so that “point #1” is on the x-axis, and scale (or define length units), so that the circle is of radius=1.

  395. Just a minor point: three random points on a plane define a circle (where all three points are on the circumference).
    Even if they randomly are on the same line? If so, does that mean the circle has an infinite radius?

  396. Just a minor point: three random points on a plane define a circle (where all three points are on the circumference).
    Even if they randomly are on the same line? If so, does that mean the circle has an infinite radius?

  397. HSH —
    I know, but the extension to the plane is what got me obsessing about it. The problem is defining what it would mean to pick random points in an infinite plane. You have to define an appropriate finite size problem, I think, and then extend it if I understand Jaynes correctly.
    I think one needs a space where every point is the same. You could have a unit square where the point ( x,y) = (x +n, y+m) where n and m are integers so it is a flat space which wraps around on itself, but I am not smart enough to do the problem. Or one could think of picking three random points in a surface of a sphere, forming a spherical triangle and asking what the average area would be, but then it is non Euclidean. And I know nothing about spherical triangles.
    Or you could argue from symmetry and use your argument.
    I think I am going to give up at this stage.

  398. HSH —
    I know, but the extension to the plane is what got me obsessing about it. The problem is defining what it would mean to pick random points in an infinite plane. You have to define an appropriate finite size problem, I think, and then extend it if I understand Jaynes correctly.
    I think one needs a space where every point is the same. You could have a unit square where the point ( x,y) = (x +n, y+m) where n and m are integers so it is a flat space which wraps around on itself, but I am not smart enough to do the problem. Or one could think of picking three random points in a surface of a sphere, forming a spherical triangle and asking what the average area would be, but then it is non Euclidean. And I know nothing about spherical triangles.
    Or you could argue from symmetry and use your argument.
    I think I am going to give up at this stage.

  401. This is the most recent open thread, so:
    I just saw a bald eagle floating down the Delaware River on a big chunk of ice. Wish I had a camera on me.

  402. This is the most recent open thread, so:
    I just saw a bald eagle floating down the Delaware River on a big chunk of ice. Wish I had a camera on me.

  405. I just saw a bald eagle floating down the Delaware River on a big chunk of ice. Wish I had a camera on me.
    Too far away to take a pic with your phone? I mean surely you have a phone on your person at all times these days….. 😉

  406. I just saw a bald eagle floating down the Delaware River on a big chunk of ice. Wish I had a camera on me.
    Too far away to take a pic with your phone? I mean surely you have a phone on your person at all times these days….. 😉

  407. Too far away to take a pic with your phone? I mean surely you have a phone on your person at all times these days….. 😉
    Nope. Not when I’m exercising at lunch (braving the cold, winter winds off the Delaware in a very manly, George Washington kind of way).

  408. Too far away to take a pic with your phone? I mean surely you have a phone on your person at all times these days….. 😉
    Nope. Not when I’m exercising at lunch (braving the cold, winter winds off the Delaware in a very manly, George Washington kind of way).

  409. I knew you were a manly GW kind of guy, hsh. Glad to have it confirmed.
    I was never much into taking pictures until I kind of randomly acquired a little digital camera several years after they became common. Turned out I *loved* it when I could upload pics right away, make my own cards from them, keep photo diaries of a sort, etc. When Ezster Hargittai from Crooked Timber started a photo group a while back (2013?), I joined it and stayed semi-faithful for the 4 years it existed. Since it folded I’ve fallen off the picture-taking wagon, but I still may climb back up one of these days.
    The debate I’ve had with myself for a while has been whether to graduate from this beloved little camera I have — which is at this point a reconditioned copy of my original, which I broke with carelessness — to a fancier camera with lenses etc. If I decide to get more serious, I’ll need a better camera. But what I absolutely love about the one I have is that it fits in a pocket. For 6 or 7 years I carried it with me everywhere — cargo shorts with side pockets in the summer, jacket pocket in the winter, the camera slipped into a little drawstring bag — so that I could take any kind of spur of the moment picture that struck me, all day, every day, everywhere and anywhere. Kind of like a lot of people do with phones now, but I have a cheap phone with a crappy camera so that doesn’t work for me.
    I’m still not sure I would have carried it in my sweatpants pocket while jogging, though. Then again, I don’t jog, so there’s that.
    The trade-off that I can’t resolve is that with a fancy camera that doesn’t fit in a pocket, I have to make a deliberate decision when I leave the house: this is a picture-taking expedition, or not; and I have to lug stuff around. With the little camera, any time is picture-taking time. I suppose I could have both…the little one still with me always, the fancy one only sometimes.
    Friday afternoon escape-from-spreadsheets musings.

  410. I knew you were a manly GW kind of guy, hsh. Glad to have it confirmed.
    I was never much into taking pictures until I kind of randomly acquired a little digital camera several years after they became common. Turned out I *loved* it when I could upload pics right away, make my own cards from them, keep photo diaries of a sort, etc. When Ezster Hargittai from Crooked Timber started a photo group a while back (2013?), I joined it and stayed semi-faithful for the 4 years it existed. Since it folded I’ve fallen off the picture-taking wagon, but I still may climb back up one of these days.
    The debate I’ve had with myself for a while has been whether to graduate from this beloved little camera I have — which is at this point a reconditioned copy of my original, which I broke with carelessness — to a fancier camera with lenses etc. If I decide to get more serious, I’ll need a better camera. But what I absolutely love about the one I have is that it fits in a pocket. For 6 or 7 years I carried it with me everywhere — cargo shorts with side pockets in the summer, jacket pocket in the winter, the camera slipped into a little drawstring bag — so that I could take any kind of spur of the moment picture that struck me, all day, every day, everywhere and anywhere. Kind of like a lot of people do with phones now, but I have a cheap phone with a crappy camera so that doesn’t work for me.
    I’m still not sure I would have carried it in my sweatpants pocket while jogging, though. Then again, I don’t jog, so there’s that.
    The trade-off that I can’t resolve is that with a fancy camera that doesn’t fit in a pocket, I have to make a deliberate decision when I leave the house: this is a picture-taking expedition, or not; and I have to lug stuff around. With the little camera, any time is picture-taking time. I suppose I could have both…the little one still with me always, the fancy one only sometimes.
    Friday afternoon escape-from-spreadsheets musings.

  411. aside from the fixed focal length (digital zoom is a lie!), i’m very impressed with the cameras in smartphones these days.
    i rarely take my big ol Nikon out of the house anymore.

  412. aside from the fixed focal length (digital zoom is a lie!), i’m very impressed with the cameras in smartphones these days.
    i rarely take my big ol Nikon out of the house anymore.

  413. digital zoom is a lie!
    Assuming your eyes could focus on things no matter how close, it’s like looking at part of the same damned picture with it smashed up against your face. Just effing crop it after the fact. There’s no difference.

  414. digital zoom is a lie!
    Assuming your eyes could focus on things no matter how close, it’s like looking at part of the same damned picture with it smashed up against your face. Just effing crop it after the fact. There’s no difference.

  415. huge difference!
    making pixels bigger (digital zoom) is a terrible substitute for magnification (optical zoom).

  416. huge difference!
    making pixels bigger (digital zoom) is a terrible substitute for magnification (optical zoom).

  421. making pixels bigger (digital zoom
    Don’t use phones or know much, but “making pixels bigger” since they are hardware sounds really strange
    In media, I watch all kinds of resolutions on my 1920×1080, and for instance when a 480 vertical is expanded to fill the screen, my player uses software dithering, bestguessing the color pixel that should be between two pixels separated by expansion. It is not at all optimal, but the blurriness is not because the pixels are bigger. Same process is done with downscaling.

  422. making pixels bigger (digital zoom
    Don’t use phones or know much, but “making pixels bigger” since they are hardware sounds really strange
    In media, I watch all kinds of resolutions on my 1920×1080, and for instance when a 480 vertical is expanded to fill the screen, my player uses software dithering, bestguessing the color pixel that should be between two pixels separated by expansion. It is not at all optimal, but the blurriness is not because the pixels are bigger. Same process is done with downscaling.

  423. As per not wanting immigrants from shithole countries–yes, there are people who live in terrible places. Seems to me that’s exactly who should be allowed to immigrate because they are the people who need to immigrate. Norwegains don’t need to immigrate (and would be seriously reducing their quality of life if they came here)
    Thats what struck me about the not wanting immigrants from shithole countries The term is rude but the underlying assumption is really really clueless.
    We are a nation of people who came from places wath were shitholes at some point in history. And I say that as a person of French ancestry (Franco-Prussian War) married to a person of Irish ancestry(potato famine)

  424. As per not wanting immigrants from shithole countries–yes, there are people who live in terrible places. Seems to me that’s exactly who should be allowed to immigrate because they are the people who need to immigrate. Norwegains don’t need to immigrate (and would be seriously reducing their quality of life if they came here)
    Thats what struck me about the not wanting immigrants from shithole countries The term is rude but the underlying assumption is really really clueless.
    We are a nation of people who came from places wath were shitholes at some point in history. And I say that as a person of French ancestry (Franco-Prussian War) married to a person of Irish ancestry(potato famine)

  425. huge difference!
    making pixels bigger (digital zoom) is a terrible substitute for magnification (optical zoom).
    Right. I was agreeing with you. Digital zoom is like cropping (and resizing) afterwards. No new information is added. You’re just looking closer at part of the same image.

  426. huge difference!
    making pixels bigger (digital zoom) is a terrible substitute for magnification (optical zoom).
    Right. I was agreeing with you. Digital zoom is like cropping (and resizing) afterwards. No new information is added. You’re just looking closer at part of the same image.

  427. Don’t use phones or know much, but “making pixels bigger” since they are hardware sounds really strange
    the pixels on the phone’s sensor never change. with a old school zoom lens in front of a digital sensor, the image gets magnified by the lens and the sensor sees the magnified image. exactly like film.
    with digital zoom, the lens is fixed – doesn’t zoom at all. so, what happens is that the image that comes off the sensor gets cropped, and then enlarged. so if your camera’s sensor takes ex. 4000×3000 pixel images, and you digitally zoom in 2x, the camera will take the image off the sensor, crop it to 2000×1500, then enlarge that image back up to 4000×3000. that’s what you’ll see.
    the very simplest way to do that enlargement is to take every single pixel in the 2000×1500 image and duplicate it once horizontally and once vertically. the color in the top-left pixel of the cropped image gets put into the four pixels in the top-left of the 4000×3000 image. in effect, each source pixel becomes 4x as big. it’s an ugly effect (but very fast!).
    in 1D it’s easy.
    if you have this series of five numbers:
    8 16 9 7 1
    and you need a series of ten numbers that looks somewhat like the original, you can just duplicate them:
    8 8 16 16 9 9 7 7 1 1
    that’s a 2x enlargement. and that’s “pixels get bigger”. each pixel grew twice as big, in effect.
    that’s also the “mosaic” effect: just make each pixel into a big square.
    there are more sophisticated ways to do enlargement. but they are all ultimately just variations of weighted a average: pick some number of adjacent pixels, do a weighted average to find the new pixel.
    8 16 9 7 1
    enlarge 5 to 9, doing a simple average:
    8 12 16 13 9 7 8 4 1
    new values are just average of adjacent pairs of old ones.
    and here’s the issue. by coincidence at all, a digital blur is also done with a weighted average. the only difference is that a blur has the same number of pixels in the input and output. with enlargement, you create multiple blurred pixels from each source pixel; each output pixel is a blurred version of the almost the same set of source pixels as its neighbors.
    8 16 9 7 1
    enlarge 5 to 12 – interpolate two pixels between each pair of source pixels:
    8 10 14 16 14 12 9 8 8 7 5 3 1
    the jump from 8 to 16 was a pretty big jump (for these numbers) – and jumps are actually edges, borders, fine detail, in the image. but 8, 10, 14, 16 is a nice smooth gradient – no more edge. now it’s a ramp.

  428. Don’t use phones or know much, but “making pixels bigger” since they are hardware sounds really strange
    the pixels on the phone’s sensor never change. with a old school zoom lens in front of a digital sensor, the image gets magnified by the lens and the sensor sees the magnified image. exactly like film.
    with digital zoom, the lens is fixed – doesn’t zoom at all. so, what happens is that the image that comes off the sensor gets cropped, and then enlarged. so if your camera’s sensor takes ex. 4000×3000 pixel images, and you digitally zoom in 2x, the camera will take the image off the sensor, crop it to 2000×1500, then enlarge that image back up to 4000×3000. that’s what you’ll see.
    the very simplest way to do that enlargement is to take every single pixel in the 2000×1500 image and duplicate it once horizontally and once vertically. the color in the top-left pixel of the cropped image gets put into the four pixels in the top-left of the 4000×3000 image. in effect, each source pixel becomes 4x as big. it’s an ugly effect (but very fast!).
    in 1D it’s easy.
    if you have this series of five numbers:
    8 16 9 7 1
    and you need a series of ten numbers that looks somewhat like the original, you can just duplicate them:
    8 8 16 16 9 9 7 7 1 1
    that’s a 2x enlargement. and that’s “pixels get bigger”. each pixel grew twice as big, in effect.
    that’s also the “mosaic” effect: just make each pixel into a big square.
    there are more sophisticated ways to do enlargement. but they are all ultimately just variations of weighted a average: pick some number of adjacent pixels, do a weighted average to find the new pixel.
    8 16 9 7 1
    enlarge 5 to 9, doing a simple average:
    8 12 16 13 9 7 8 4 1
    new values are just average of adjacent pairs of old ones.
    and here’s the issue. by coincidence at all, a digital blur is also done with a weighted average. the only difference is that a blur has the same number of pixels in the input and output. with enlargement, you create multiple blurred pixels from each source pixel; each output pixel is a blurred version of the almost the same set of source pixels as its neighbors.
    8 16 9 7 1
    enlarge 5 to 12 – interpolate two pixels between each pair of source pixels:
    8 10 14 16 14 12 9 8 8 7 5 3 1
    the jump from 8 to 16 was a pretty big jump (for these numbers) – and jumps are actually edges, borders, fine detail, in the image. but 8, 10, 14, 16 is a nice smooth gradient – no more edge. now it’s a ramp.

  429. in case you wanted a lecture…
    (did i mention that i used to do this stuff for a living and would lovelovelove to get back into it?)

  430. in case you wanted a lecture…
    (did i mention that i used to do this stuff for a living and would lovelovelove to get back into it?)

  431. Well that’s it. The Federal government will shut down in an hour due to lack of approval to spend money.
    Apparently even the 3 1/2 months since the fiscal year started (not to mention the previous months when the job should have been done) still weren’t enough to get the Congress’ most basic governing function accomplished. No wonder the public holds the Congress in such low regard.

  432. Well that’s it. The Federal government will shut down in an hour due to lack of approval to spend money.
    Apparently even the 3 1/2 months since the fiscal year started (not to mention the previous months when the job should have been done) still weren’t enough to get the Congress’ most basic governing function accomplished. No wonder the public holds the Congress in such low regard.

  433. As of 12:00, McConnell has not yet closed the vote, so we shall see.
    He, Trump’s brand of “government” needs to be mucked out and hosed off, let alone shut down.
    –TP

  434. As of 12:00, McConnell has not yet closed the vote, so we shall see.
    He, Trump’s brand of “government” needs to be mucked out and hosed off, let alone shut down.
    –TP

  435. First, this sucks, second, this is all on the Dems, third, that may work out for them.
    I would be taking credit for it if I were them, not giving Trump credit for it.
    If you are going to stand on principle and demand an immigration solution or else, then own it.
    I might respect you for that.
    But 45 Dem Senators and 4 Rep Senators voted tonight against a 6 year extension of CHIPS and to not fund the government for the next four weeks.
    CHIPS is off the table for beating up Reps. We’ll see what tomorrow brings.

  436. First, this sucks, second, this is all on the Dems, third, that may work out for them.
    I would be taking credit for it if I were them, not giving Trump credit for it.
    If you are going to stand on principle and demand an immigration solution or else, then own it.
    I might respect you for that.
    But 45 Dem Senators and 4 Rep Senators voted tonight against a 6 year extension of CHIPS and to not fund the government for the next four weeks.
    CHIPS is off the table for beating up Reps. We’ll see what tomorrow brings.

  437. this is all on the Dems
    What about the Republican Senators who voted with the Democrats? Shouldn’t they get some credit, too?

  438. this is all on the Dems
    What about the Republican Senators who voted with the Democrats? Shouldn’t they get some credit, too?

  439. If you are going to stand on principle and demand an immigration solution or else, then own it.

    Why? It seems like the Dems were willing to deal and they came to Trump’s office and were met by Stephen Miller and Tom Cotton, two of the dullest knives in the draw and all the previous negotiation was tossed out of the window. So why should the Dems have to explain what principle(s) they are adhering to when the Donald has no principles? And it isn’t the CHIPS that was the original issue, it was DACA. Frankly, it is a target rich enviroment, and I don’t see why the Dems have to pick and choose. Or is this one of those things where the Dems have to behave one way, but the Repubs don’t have to give a sh*t?

  440. If you are going to stand on principle and demand an immigration solution or else, then own it.

    Why? It seems like the Dems were willing to deal and they came to Trump’s office and were met by Stephen Miller and Tom Cotton, two of the dullest knives in the draw and all the previous negotiation was tossed out of the window. So why should the Dems have to explain what principle(s) they are adhering to when the Donald has no principles? And it isn’t the CHIPS that was the original issue, it was DACA. Frankly, it is a target rich enviroment, and I don’t see why the Dems have to pick and choose. Or is this one of those things where the Dems have to behave one way, but the Repubs don’t have to give a sh*t?

  441. The Reps passed a clean extension in the House and got 51 votes in the Senate.
    There was nothing in the bill to vote against.
    They never passed a budget the whole time Obama was in office, so the CR is not a problem. DACA doesnt expire until March. (And that they could have had that for 18B and chain migration)
    So they literally shut down the government on principle. They should own it.

  442. The Reps passed a clean extension in the House and got 51 votes in the Senate.
    There was nothing in the bill to vote against.
    They never passed a budget the whole time Obama was in office, so the CR is not a problem. DACA doesnt expire until March. (And that they could have had that for 18B and chain migration)
    So they literally shut down the government on principle. They should own it.

  445. It seems like the Dems were willing to deal
    there was a deal *in hand*. miller and cotton blew it up.
    i don’t really care who gets the blame or the credit for the shutdown. the problem in congress is that a minority faction of the (R)’s are able to blow up any kind of constructive action. so there is little constructive action.
    they don’t represent a majority of the population. they flatter themselves that they stand for “real america” but they do not. they are a reactionary bomb-throwing impediment to national self-government. they retain power by gerrymanders and deliberate suppression of the franchise for folks who are likely to vote against them.
    they are also the public face of the (R) party, so outside the base of fox news addicts this mess looks bad for the (R)’s.
    inside that community it looks bad for the (D)’s but inside that community Hilary Clinton runs a pedophilia ring out of a pizza joint. so, whatever.
    there was a deal in hand. the wingnuts blew it up. the POTUS participated in that, because i the end he’s a biddable nasty old bigot.

  446. It seems like the Dems were willing to deal
    there was a deal *in hand*. miller and cotton blew it up.
    i don’t really care who gets the blame or the credit for the shutdown. the problem in congress is that a minority faction of the (R)’s are able to blow up any kind of constructive action. so there is little constructive action.
    they don’t represent a majority of the population. they flatter themselves that they stand for “real america” but they do not. they are a reactionary bomb-throwing impediment to national self-government. they retain power by gerrymanders and deliberate suppression of the franchise for folks who are likely to vote against them.
    they are also the public face of the (R) party, so outside the base of fox news addicts this mess looks bad for the (R)’s.
    inside that community it looks bad for the (D)’s but inside that community Hilary Clinton runs a pedophilia ring out of a pizza joint. so, whatever.
    there was a deal in hand. the wingnuts blew it up. the POTUS participated in that, because i the end he’s a biddable nasty old bigot.

  453. twice now Trump has worked out a deal with the Dems, only to walk it back when it came time to make it happen.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/us/politics/trump-government-shutdown.html

    Less than an hour later, Mr. Schumer was meeting with Mr. Trump over cheeseburgers in the president’s study next to the Oval Office. The White House chief of staff, John F. Kelly, was there, as was Mr. Schumer’s chief of staff, Mike Lynch.
    As the meal progressed, an outline of an agreement was struck, according to one person familiar with the discussion: Mr. Schumer said yes to higher levels for military spending and discussed the possibility of fully funding the president’s wall on the southern border with Mexico. In exchange, the president agreed to support legalizing young immigrants who were brought to the United States as children.
    Mr. Schumer left the White House believing he had persuaded the president to support a short, three to four-day spending extension to finalize an agreement, which would also include disaster funding and health care measures.
    …
    A White House official said that Mr. Schumer raised the possibility of a one or two-day extension, but Mr. Trump told Mr. Schumer to work out the details of a short-term measure with Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the majority leader.
    A short time later Mr. Schumer called the president, the person said, but the conversation drove the pair even further apart. The immigration concessions from Democrats were not conservative enough, Mr. Trump told Mr. Schumer. The president said he needed more border security measures as well as more enforcement of illegal immigration in parts of the country far from the border.
    As the evening wore on, Mr. Schumer got a call from Mr. Kelly that dashed all hopes for a Trump-Schumer deal before the shutdown deadline of midnight. Mr. Kelly, a hard-liner on immigration, the person familiar with the call said, outlined a long list of White House objections to the deal.

    the Dems think they have a deal, Trump thinks he has a deal, then the little goblins whisper in Trump’s ear and the deal vanishes.
    how is anything supposed to get done?
    but, yes, it’s the Dem’s fault. of course. always.

  454. twice now Trump has worked out a deal with the Dems, only to walk it back when it came time to make it happen.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/us/politics/trump-government-shutdown.html

    Less than an hour later, Mr. Schumer was meeting with Mr. Trump over cheeseburgers in the president’s study next to the Oval Office. The White House chief of staff, John F. Kelly, was there, as was Mr. Schumer’s chief of staff, Mike Lynch.
    As the meal progressed, an outline of an agreement was struck, according to one person familiar with the discussion: Mr. Schumer said yes to higher levels for military spending and discussed the possibility of fully funding the president’s wall on the southern border with Mexico. In exchange, the president agreed to support legalizing young immigrants who were brought to the United States as children.
    Mr. Schumer left the White House believing he had persuaded the president to support a short, three to four-day spending extension to finalize an agreement, which would also include disaster funding and health care measures.
    …
    A White House official said that Mr. Schumer raised the possibility of a one or two-day extension, but Mr. Trump told Mr. Schumer to work out the details of a short-term measure with Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the majority leader.
    A short time later Mr. Schumer called the president, the person said, but the conversation drove the pair even further apart. The immigration concessions from Democrats were not conservative enough, Mr. Trump told Mr. Schumer. The president said he needed more border security measures as well as more enforcement of illegal immigration in parts of the country far from the border.
    As the evening wore on, Mr. Schumer got a call from Mr. Kelly that dashed all hopes for a Trump-Schumer deal before the shutdown deadline of midnight. Mr. Kelly, a hard-liner on immigration, the person familiar with the call said, outlined a long list of White House objections to the deal.

    the Dems think they have a deal, Trump thinks he has a deal, then the little goblins whisper in Trump’s ear and the deal vanishes.
    how is anything supposed to get done?
    but, yes, it’s the Dem’s fault. of course. always.

  455. And I’m really tired of this majority of Americans bs. It doesn’t have a damn thing to do with what happened last night. Besides being sour grapes that’s really getting old.

  456. And I’m really tired of this majority of Americans bs. It doesn’t have a damn thing to do with what happened last night. Besides being sour grapes that’s really getting old.

  457. People familiar? I’m also tired of arguing over one sided summaries. Schumer left the WH saying there wasn’t a deal. There wasnt a deal.

  458. People familiar? I’m also tired of arguing over one sided summaries. Schumer left the WH saying there wasn’t a deal. There wasnt a deal.

  459. how many years in a row have we watched them play this shutdown game?
    all of these issues could have been sorted out in separate bills any time in the last year. but they always end up on the edge of (or over) the shutdown cliff.
    at what point do we conclude that this is intentional? the parties use this as leverage, always.

  460. how many years in a row have we watched them play this shutdown game?
    all of these issues could have been sorted out in separate bills any time in the last year. but they always end up on the edge of (or over) the shutdown cliff.
    at what point do we conclude that this is intentional? the parties use this as leverage, always.

  461. Mr. Schumer said yes to higher levels for military spending and discussed the possibility of fully funding the president’s wall on the southern border with Mexico.
    Trump wants the US to fund the wall.
    wait?
    didn’t he promise something quite different?
    Make America Mexico Again
    oh mama, are Republicans stupid.

  462. Mr. Schumer said yes to higher levels for military spending and discussed the possibility of fully funding the president’s wall on the southern border with Mexico.
    Trump wants the US to fund the wall.
    wait?
    didn’t he promise something quite different?
    Make America Mexico Again
    oh mama, are Republicans stupid.

  463. He “discussed the possibility”, that’s not a deal, or even an offer. I watched Schumer leave the WH, he said we made progress but there are still a lot of disagreements.

  464. He “discussed the possibility”, that’s not a deal, or even an offer. I watched Schumer leave the WH, he said we made progress but there are still a lot of disagreements.

  465. brilliant businessman shuts down his latest business exactly one year after taking charge, can’t figure out how to get the employees to agree to keep the lights on.
    Brilliant. Businessman.

  466. brilliant businessman shuts down his latest business exactly one year after taking charge, can’t figure out how to get the employees to agree to keep the lights on.
    Brilliant. Businessman.

  469. He “discussed the possibility”, that’s not a deal, or even an offer.
    why would Trump even “discuss the possibility” ? didn’t he say, a couple times, that Mexico was going to pay for it? why was this even open for discussion?
    something fishy is going on here. either Schumer lied to embarrass the honorable and honest Donald Trump, or Trump is con-man who suckered a bunch of gullible red state “conservatives” into voting for him.

  470. He “discussed the possibility”, that’s not a deal, or even an offer.
    why would Trump even “discuss the possibility” ? didn’t he say, a couple times, that Mexico was going to pay for it? why was this even open for discussion?
    something fishy is going on here. either Schumer lied to embarrass the honorable and honest Donald Trump, or Trump is con-man who suckered a bunch of gullible red state “conservatives” into voting for him.

  471. The funding for the wall is clearly on the table, how Mexico will ultimately pay for it is not.
    I am going to try to enjoy my Saturday, when all else fails just start throwing irrelevant red herrings at the wall.
    Just once I would like to have someone here acknowledge that Democrats play politics too. This would be a good time.
    There is no excusable reason go the government to be shut down today, or CHIPS funding to not be in place.
    As far as a small number of Republicans controlling things, the Democrats can solve that easily. Cut a deal and not make everything in the House require their votes. Probably take 20 votes,from safe districts. The Dems empower the nutjobs on purpose.

  472. The funding for the wall is clearly on the table, how Mexico will ultimately pay for it is not.
    I am going to try to enjoy my Saturday, when all else fails just start throwing irrelevant red herrings at the wall.
    Just once I would like to have someone here acknowledge that Democrats play politics too. This would be a good time.
    There is no excusable reason go the government to be shut down today, or CHIPS funding to not be in place.
    As far as a small number of Republicans controlling things, the Democrats can solve that easily. Cut a deal and not make everything in the House require their votes. Probably take 20 votes,from safe districts. The Dems empower the nutjobs on purpose.

  473. “And I’m really tired of this majority of Americans bs.”
    A refreshing admission.
    republican cheats drawing squiggly gerrymandering lines and making fake news accusations of election fraud against the swarthies, not to mention five Supreme Court Justices, should be so candid.
    Mitch McConnell’s promises back in 2009, when he led the minority, and 2013, and every republican sentiment during that 8-year period to halt all attempted governance by the commonly accepted normalized means by Barack Obama, and then when he tried to govern by sketchy but still constitutional means, for which there was commonly accepted bipartisan precedence over many decades, he was called a tyrant, come to mind.
    When do I, as one of the governed, get my hearings for goddamned Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland?
    When?
    Jefferson Davis, John Calhoun, and indeed King George III expressed identical sentiments about the fucking majority in America.
    Besides, it’s always the parts of the government I’ve given my consent to that are shut down, while the parts I don’t give my consent to stay funded.
    What kind of a country shuts down the government every year?
    A shithole country that deserves to have its government reduced to smoldering ruins surrounded by killing fields.
    I withdraw my consent to be governed by the republican party at all levels of government.
    Don’t fucking even try to collect my garbage or I’ll make you eat it. Or don’t collect my garbage. In that case, if you are a republican
    making the rules, I’ll bring to to your house and make your kids eat it.
    Don’t govern me. Don’t.

  474. “And I’m really tired of this majority of Americans bs.”
    A refreshing admission.
    republican cheats drawing squiggly gerrymandering lines and making fake news accusations of election fraud against the swarthies, not to mention five Supreme Court Justices, should be so candid.
    Mitch McConnell’s promises back in 2009, when he led the minority, and 2013, and every republican sentiment during that 8-year period to halt all attempted governance by the commonly accepted normalized means by Barack Obama, and then when he tried to govern by sketchy but still constitutional means, for which there was commonly accepted bipartisan precedence over many decades, he was called a tyrant, come to mind.
    When do I, as one of the governed, get my hearings for goddamned Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland?
    When?
    Jefferson Davis, John Calhoun, and indeed King George III expressed identical sentiments about the fucking majority in America.
    Besides, it’s always the parts of the government I’ve given my consent to that are shut down, while the parts I don’t give my consent to stay funded.
    What kind of a country shuts down the government every year?
    A shithole country that deserves to have its government reduced to smoldering ruins surrounded by killing fields.
    I withdraw my consent to be governed by the republican party at all levels of government.
    Don’t fucking even try to collect my garbage or I’ll make you eat it. Or don’t collect my garbage. In that case, if you are a republican
    making the rules, I’ll bring to to your house and make your kids eat it.
    Don’t govern me. Don’t.

  475. The funding for the wall is clearly on the table, how Mexico will ultimately pay for it is not.
    oh Marty.
    …
    yes. Dems play politics. they’re politicians. it’s a job requirement.

  476. The funding for the wall is clearly on the table, how Mexico will ultimately pay for it is not.
    oh Marty.
    …
    yes. Dems play politics. they’re politicians. it’s a job requirement.

  477. Who was it who said this, and about what … ?
    “The problems start from the top and have to get solved from the top, …The president is the leader, and he’s got to get everybody in a room and he’s got to lead.”

  478. Who was it who said this, and about what … ?
    “The problems start from the top and have to get solved from the top, …The president is the leader, and he’s got to get everybody in a room and he’s got to lead.”

  479. Doesn’t matter what mp said about the Wall (Tear Down That Wall!) in the meeting, there would have been a tweet five minutes later as Schumer climbed into his limo, directly contradicting what Schumer heard mp say in the meeting.
    There is no stable ground on which to negotiate with republicans.
    Purposely so.
    You might as well negotiate your fate with the triple, slavering jaws of the Alien or, as an alternative choice, at the hands of a ravening pack of velociraptors.
    Compromise is not in their genes. Good faith doesn’t occur to the reptilian brain stem.
    Nuke from space. Maybe North Korea will that capability soon.
    But no, we never nuke from space in this shithole because we want yet another sequel to the contagion of conservative horseshit. And in each sequel, the Alien and the velociraptors emerge more ruthless and bloodthirsty than the last iteration.
    Both sides do it. One side is bred to do it. The other doesn’t do it very well and needs to kick up its game and DO IT a million times more ruthlessly and finally.

  480. Doesn’t matter what mp said about the Wall (Tear Down That Wall!) in the meeting, there would have been a tweet five minutes later as Schumer climbed into his limo, directly contradicting what Schumer heard mp say in the meeting.
    There is no stable ground on which to negotiate with republicans.
    Purposely so.
    You might as well negotiate your fate with the triple, slavering jaws of the Alien or, as an alternative choice, at the hands of a ravening pack of velociraptors.
    Compromise is not in their genes. Good faith doesn’t occur to the reptilian brain stem.
    Nuke from space. Maybe North Korea will that capability soon.
    But no, we never nuke from space in this shithole because we want yet another sequel to the contagion of conservative horseshit. And in each sequel, the Alien and the velociraptors emerge more ruthless and bloodthirsty than the last iteration.
    Both sides do it. One side is bred to do it. The other doesn’t do it very well and needs to kick up its game and DO IT a million times more ruthlessly and finally.

  481. “There is no excusable reason go the government to be shut down today, or CHIPS funding to not be in place.”
    Yes, on October 1, 2017 for this fiscal year, of which there are only eight and half months left.
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/5/16733784/senate-tax-bill-orrin-hatch-chip
    https://www.vox.com/2017/12/3/16730496/orrin-hatch-chip-tax-bill
    If both sides do it equally, Hatch would have had a Democrat standing next to him nodding assent to his porcine utterances.
    For eight years, when republican priorities, basically killing people here and abroad by various means, were sometimes not funded, right wingers, at the urging of the republican noise machine and its cadres literally ran to the gun stores and loaded up on military weaponry and threatened violence against the majority, including against what remains of the RINOs.
    Yet, 800,000 Dreamers remain unarmed and the parents of nine million kids who rely on CHIPS haven’t uttered a peep about protecting themselves against conservative threats to their kids’ lives since November 9, 2016.
    The docility is impressive. What if the 9,800,000 converged on the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, ran the federal employees off with military weaponry and proceeded to whack off to left wing radio incitement, of which there is none.
    Think of the bloodthirsty response from republican murderers running the show. The Bundys, deputized by republican vermin, would be in the underbrush surrounding the refuge munching on endangered fowl species and and picking off the 9,800,000 one at a time.
    Do we see what needs to fucking change?
    PS: When Mexico sends the full payment to the US Treasury to finance the Wall, as mp promised, construction will proceed. Personally, I hope Mexico is sending the money to Peking and/or Russia to fund shipments of nuclear warhead-tipped missiles to be deployed along our southern border.

  482. “There is no excusable reason go the government to be shut down today, or CHIPS funding to not be in place.”
    Yes, on October 1, 2017 for this fiscal year, of which there are only eight and half months left.
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/5/16733784/senate-tax-bill-orrin-hatch-chip
    https://www.vox.com/2017/12/3/16730496/orrin-hatch-chip-tax-bill
    If both sides do it equally, Hatch would have had a Democrat standing next to him nodding assent to his porcine utterances.
    For eight years, when republican priorities, basically killing people here and abroad by various means, were sometimes not funded, right wingers, at the urging of the republican noise machine and its cadres literally ran to the gun stores and loaded up on military weaponry and threatened violence against the majority, including against what remains of the RINOs.
    Yet, 800,000 Dreamers remain unarmed and the parents of nine million kids who rely on CHIPS haven’t uttered a peep about protecting themselves against conservative threats to their kids’ lives since November 9, 2016.
    The docility is impressive. What if the 9,800,000 converged on the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, ran the federal employees off with military weaponry and proceeded to whack off to left wing radio incitement, of which there is none.
    Think of the bloodthirsty response from republican murderers running the show. The Bundys, deputized by republican vermin, would be in the underbrush surrounding the refuge munching on endangered fowl species and and picking off the 9,800,000 one at a time.
    Do we see what needs to fucking change?
    PS: When Mexico sends the full payment to the US Treasury to finance the Wall, as mp promised, construction will proceed. Personally, I hope Mexico is sending the money to Peking and/or Russia to fund shipments of nuclear warhead-tipped missiles to be deployed along our southern border.

  491. I will admit that you have the decided edge in the balance of power in the refusal of your consent:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/nras-ties-to-putin-allies-go-back-years
    I’m outgunned. That’s as starkly simple as it gets.
    Still, we could meet for a beer occasionally at a beach cabana in Barbados when we visit our respective bank safe deposit boxes.
    The various international mafias the mp businesses have sold their properties to since mp became prez have laundered $35 million in receipts thru there too.

  492. I will admit that you have the decided edge in the balance of power in the refusal of your consent:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/nras-ties-to-putin-allies-go-back-years
    I’m outgunned. That’s as starkly simple as it gets.
    Still, we could meet for a beer occasionally at a beach cabana in Barbados when we visit our respective bank safe deposit boxes.
    The various international mafias the mp businesses have sold their properties to since mp became prez have laundered $35 million in receipts thru there too.

  495. Is Marty a dupe who falls for every line of BS a fiendish GOP puts out?
    Or is the GOP a hapless factotum forced to do the bidding of fiendish Real Murkins like Marty?
    It has to be one or the other, barring the alternative option that Marty is Mitch McConnell. Has anybody ever actually seen them together?
    (D)eferred (A)ction for (C)hildhood (A)rrivals is only a burning issue because He, Trump chose to revoke it, and the GOP has refused to legislate on it.
    I don’t know whether Marty himself wants to deport those Americans who entered the US as involuntarily as maternity-ward immigrants entered it, or whether McConnell convinced Marty that letting the “dreamers” get deported is how to Make America Great Again. What I do know is that McConnell, Ryan, and He, Trump his own self, draw their power from the fact that America’s Martys are on their side.
    –TP

  496. Is Marty a dupe who falls for every line of BS a fiendish GOP puts out?
    Or is the GOP a hapless factotum forced to do the bidding of fiendish Real Murkins like Marty?
    It has to be one or the other, barring the alternative option that Marty is Mitch McConnell. Has anybody ever actually seen them together?
    (D)eferred (A)ction for (C)hildhood (A)rrivals is only a burning issue because He, Trump chose to revoke it, and the GOP has refused to legislate on it.
    I don’t know whether Marty himself wants to deport those Americans who entered the US as involuntarily as maternity-ward immigrants entered it, or whether McConnell convinced Marty that letting the “dreamers” get deported is how to Make America Great Again. What I do know is that McConnell, Ryan, and He, Trump his own self, draw their power from the fact that America’s Martys are on their side.
    –TP

  497. Flake he is dead to me, he is just running for President now so it’s grain of salt tome. The rest have reasonable concirns that should not have kept them from approving the Cr

  498. Flake he is dead to me, he is just running for President now so it’s grain of salt tome. The rest have reasonable concirns that should not have kept them from approving the Cr

  499. I am going to try to enjoy my Saturday, when all else fails just start throwing irrelevant red herrings at the wall.
    Well, you always had too many of them anyway.
    Just once I would like to have someone here acknowledge that Democrats play politics too. This would be a good time.
    They are a political party. That’s what political parties are supposed to do. I do not believe anybody here has ever denied this.
    There is no excusable reason go the government to be shut down today, or CHIPS funding to not be in place.
    A CHIP funding bill, on its own, would pass easily. So why has the GOP leadership, you know, the ones who get to set the legislative agenda, not allowed such a bill to the floor? Could it be, gasp(!), politics? Dear me.
    As far as a small number of Republicans controlling things, the Democrats can solve that easily. Cut a deal and not make everything in the House require their votes.
    Sure. But there is one small problem with this fantasy. GOP leadership would never even attempt such a deal. cf trials and tribulations of Speaker Boehner.
    The Dems empower the nutjobs on purpose.
    Again, no. The Dems have nothing to do with this. It is a problem within the majority party. There is nothing the Dems can do about this. They are the minority. You seem to keep forgetting this.

  500. I am going to try to enjoy my Saturday, when all else fails just start throwing irrelevant red herrings at the wall.
    Well, you always had too many of them anyway.
    Just once I would like to have someone here acknowledge that Democrats play politics too. This would be a good time.
    They are a political party. That’s what political parties are supposed to do. I do not believe anybody here has ever denied this.
    There is no excusable reason go the government to be shut down today, or CHIPS funding to not be in place.
    A CHIP funding bill, on its own, would pass easily. So why has the GOP leadership, you know, the ones who get to set the legislative agenda, not allowed such a bill to the floor? Could it be, gasp(!), politics? Dear me.
    As far as a small number of Republicans controlling things, the Democrats can solve that easily. Cut a deal and not make everything in the House require their votes.
    Sure. But there is one small problem with this fantasy. GOP leadership would never even attempt such a deal. cf trials and tribulations of Speaker Boehner.
    The Dems empower the nutjobs on purpose.
    Again, no. The Dems have nothing to do with this. It is a problem within the majority party. There is nothing the Dems can do about this. They are the minority. You seem to keep forgetting this.

  503. All this government shutdown drama is just an appeasement to libertarians since they’re always cheered by anything that makes the general public more skeptical of politics, politicians, and government. 🙂

  504. All this government shutdown drama is just an appeasement to libertarians since they’re always cheered by anything that makes the general public more skeptical of politics, politicians, and government. 🙂

  505. Indeed….all of this could be solved so easily if the Dems would just roll over and agree to everything the GOP puts on the table. Then we would be “beyond politics” I guess.
    But there would always be some assholes who just wouldn’t get it.

  506. Indeed….all of this could be solved so easily if the Dems would just roll over and agree to everything the GOP puts on the table. Then we would be “beyond politics” I guess.
    But there would always be some assholes who just wouldn’t get it.

  507. I just about had my hiking boots on and the cheerful libertarians show up:
    “All this government shutdown drama is just an appeasement to libertarians since they’re always cheered by anything that makes the general public more skeptical of politics, politicians, and government. :)”
    The Bolshevik Revolution, the Confederacy leading up to the American Civil War, the Maoist insurgency in 1947-48 China, Hitler’s ascension to the Chancellorship in 1933, and the election of mp were cheered by anything that made the general public more skeptical of politics, politicians, and government.
    The accompanying emoticons were somewhat different.
    I’m off.

  508. I just about had my hiking boots on and the cheerful libertarians show up:
    “All this government shutdown drama is just an appeasement to libertarians since they’re always cheered by anything that makes the general public more skeptical of politics, politicians, and government. :)”
    The Bolshevik Revolution, the Confederacy leading up to the American Civil War, the Maoist insurgency in 1947-48 China, Hitler’s ascension to the Chancellorship in 1933, and the election of mp were cheered by anything that made the general public more skeptical of politics, politicians, and government.
    The accompanying emoticons were somewhat different.
    I’m off.

  513. oh mama, are Republicans stupid.
    sapient: stupid, maybe. Dishonest, definitely.
    You really need to differentiate between Republican politicians (dishonest) and the people who believe their words and keep voting for them.

  514. oh mama, are Republicans stupid.
    sapient: stupid, maybe. Dishonest, definitely.
    You really need to differentiate between Republican politicians (dishonest) and the people who believe their words and keep voting for them.

  515. “The problems start from the top and have to get solved from the top, …The president is the leader, and he’s got to get everybody in a room and he’s got to lead.”
    That would be one Donald Trump, Nigel. Of course that was when “the president” was Barack Obama, who he detests. Rather than Donald Trump, who he adores.

  516. “The problems start from the top and have to get solved from the top, …The president is the leader, and he’s got to get everybody in a room and he’s got to lead.”
    That would be one Donald Trump, Nigel. Of course that was when “the president” was Barack Obama, who he detests. Rather than Donald Trump, who he adores.

  517. And then Schumer 2013 said:
    The basic line is: No matter how strongly one feels about an issue, you shouldn’t hold millions of people hostage. That’s what the other side is doing. That’s wrong and we can’t give in to that,” said Sen. Chuck Schumer.
    So that’s what he’s doing now.

  518. And then Schumer 2013 said:
    The basic line is: No matter how strongly one feels about an issue, you shouldn’t hold millions of people hostage. That’s what the other side is doing. That’s wrong and we can’t give in to that,” said Sen. Chuck Schumer.
    So that’s what he’s doing now.

  519. So, wj:
    What would you call “the people who believe their words and keep voting for them”?
    Con-men succeed by persuading people to believe in bullshit. It’s an effective technique because no matter how you persuade people, they end up, well, persuaded. I know what I think of people who get persuaded by con-men, and you’re right: “dishonest” is not the right word to describe them.
    –TP

  520. So, wj:
    What would you call “the people who believe their words and keep voting for them”?
    Con-men succeed by persuading people to believe in bullshit. It’s an effective technique because no matter how you persuade people, they end up, well, persuaded. I know what I think of people who get persuaded by con-men, and you’re right: “dishonest” is not the right word to describe them.
    –TP

  521. And I’m really tired of this majority of Americans bs.
    Not nearly as tired as the majority of Americans are.
    Besides being sour grapes that’s really getting old.
    Actually, I bitched about the same stuff when Obama was POTUS.
    The whole “sour grapes” thing is really getting old.
    Schumer left the WH saying there wasn’t a deal. There wasnt a deal.
    Durbin and Graham had worked out a not-bad proposal. Trump was for it before he was against it. But, then he was against it. And was kind of an ass about it.
    So, no deal.
    Cut a deal and not make everything in the House require their votes.
    See my comment immediately above.
    Most people are in favor of DACA. Most people are fine with a path to citizenship for folks who are currently here but who are currently not legally here. Most people are not particularly interested in preventing people from majority Muslim nations from coming here. Especially if they already hold citizenship or legal status here. Most people think Trump is a crap POTUS and can’t wait for him to get the hell out of there so that we can stop being embarrassed on a daily basis by our nominal head of state.
    Most people are not having their druthers respected, because something less than most people are in the freaking way.
    It’s not a situation that’s likely to work for very long.

  522. A CHIP funding bill, on its own, would pass easily.
    It would. So would a legislative DACA bill. But since neither bill is going to be brought to a vote on its own, we are left with attaching them to something else. And then arguing that the “something else” must be passed because they are attached — no matter what.
    I believe there is a parliamentary rule in Congress that bills in general should be about only one topic. But it’s always been honored in the breach. And the level of refusal to negotiate, especially to negotiate in good faith, is striking this time.
    Plus, you have to love this quote:
    Mitch McConnell:
    “I’m looking for something that President Trump supports, and he has not yet indicated what measure he is willing to sign. As soon as we figure out what he is for, then I would be convinced that we were not just spinning our wheels.” [Emphasis added]
    That is, be it noted, the Majority Leader from Trump’s own party. And he can’t figure out what Trump will/has agreed to.

  523. And I’m really tired of this majority of Americans bs.
    Not nearly as tired as the majority of Americans are.
    Besides being sour grapes that’s really getting old.
    Actually, I bitched about the same stuff when Obama was POTUS.
    The whole “sour grapes” thing is really getting old.
    Schumer left the WH saying there wasn’t a deal. There wasnt a deal.
    Durbin and Graham had worked out a not-bad proposal. Trump was for it before he was against it. But, then he was against it. And was kind of an ass about it.
    So, no deal.
    Cut a deal and not make everything in the House require their votes.
    See my comment immediately above.
    Most people are in favor of DACA. Most people are fine with a path to citizenship for folks who are currently here but who are currently not legally here. Most people are not particularly interested in preventing people from majority Muslim nations from coming here. Especially if they already hold citizenship or legal status here. Most people think Trump is a crap POTUS and can’t wait for him to get the hell out of there so that we can stop being embarrassed on a daily basis by our nominal head of state.
    Most people are not having their druthers respected, because something less than most people are in the freaking way.
    It’s not a situation that’s likely to work for very long.

  524. A CHIP funding bill, on its own, would pass easily.
    It would. So would a legislative DACA bill. But since neither bill is going to be brought to a vote on its own, we are left with attaching them to something else. And then arguing that the “something else” must be passed because they are attached — no matter what.
    I believe there is a parliamentary rule in Congress that bills in general should be about only one topic. But it’s always been honored in the breach. And the level of refusal to negotiate, especially to negotiate in good faith, is striking this time.
    Plus, you have to love this quote:
    Mitch McConnell:
    “I’m looking for something that President Trump supports, and he has not yet indicated what measure he is willing to sign. As soon as we figure out what he is for, then I would be convinced that we were not just spinning our wheels.” [Emphasis added]
    That is, be it noted, the Majority Leader from Trump’s own party. And he can’t figure out what Trump will/has agreed to.

  525. What would you call “the people who believe their words and keep voting for them”?
    Come on, Tony. Was the implication really that subtle???

  526. What would you call “the people who believe their words and keep voting for them”?
    Come on, Tony. Was the implication really that subtle???

  527. But since neither bill is going to be brought to a vote on its own
    Now why is that?
    we are left with attaching them to something else.
    Who is “we” kimosabe?

  528. But since neither bill is going to be brought to a vote on its own
    Now why is that?
    we are left with attaching them to something else.
    Who is “we” kimosabe?

  531. But since neither bill is going to be brought to a vote on its own
    Now why is that?
    Because Ryan (and McConnell) won’t do it — they control the flow of business. My understanding (which may be flawed) is that they won’t bring anything to a vote unless it is OK with a majority of their caucus — and maybe not even then, depending on how obstreperous the “Freedom Caucus” et al are being.

  532. But since neither bill is going to be brought to a vote on its own
    Now why is that?
    Because Ryan (and McConnell) won’t do it — they control the flow of business. My understanding (which may be flawed) is that they won’t bring anything to a vote unless it is OK with a majority of their caucus — and maybe not even then, depending on how obstreperous the “Freedom Caucus” et al are being.

  533. if only there was some kind of procedural loophole that could be used to pass budgets and such, which only required 50 votes.
    oh, there is?
    and the GOP used it to pass tax cuts for billionaires?
    cool.
    the Dems made them do it, i’m sure.

  534. if only there was some kind of procedural loophole that could be used to pass budgets and such, which only required 50 votes.
    oh, there is?
    and the GOP used it to pass tax cuts for billionaires?
    cool.
    the Dems made them do it, i’m sure.

  535. Because Ryan (and McConnell) won’t do it — they control the flow of business.
    Well, that explains it. All the Democrats’ fault, obviously.

  536. Because Ryan (and McConnell) won’t do it — they control the flow of business.
    Well, that explains it. All the Democrats’ fault, obviously.

  541. It seems that the two sides are prepared to make a deal, however ignoble, but someone keeps getting in the way…
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/the-real-reasons-why-the-government-shut-down/551027/
    “I’m looking for something that President Trump supports, and he has not yet indicated what measure he is willing to sign,” McConnell told reporters this week, in a telling sign of the GOP’s frustration with the president’s inconsistency. “As soon as we figure out what he is for, then I would be convinced that we were not just spinning our wheels.”

  542. It seems that the two sides are prepared to make a deal, however ignoble, but someone keeps getting in the way…
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/the-real-reasons-why-the-government-shut-down/551027/
    “I’m looking for something that President Trump supports, and he has not yet indicated what measure he is willing to sign,” McConnell told reporters this week, in a telling sign of the GOP’s frustration with the president’s inconsistency. “As soon as we figure out what he is for, then I would be convinced that we were not just spinning our wheels.”

  547. If it is indeed about the battle of public opinion, good luck trying to explain why a President with a majority in both houses is in this situation.
    When he and his pals are desperate to torture innocent people in whatever way is available, it becomes easy to explain.

  548. If it is indeed about the battle of public opinion, good luck trying to explain why a President with a majority in both houses is in this situation.
    When he and his pals are desperate to torture innocent people in whatever way is available, it becomes easy to explain.

  549. 60 votes, gosh that wasn’t so hard
    The GOP shot their wad to get a tax cut for the rich, so basically they handed a club to the Democrats to beat them with.
    The incompetence. It burns.

  550. 60 votes, gosh that wasn’t so hard
    The GOP shot their wad to get a tax cut for the rich, so basically they handed a club to the Democrats to beat them with.
    The incompetence. It burns.

  551. This piece points out that Democrats, for better or worse, are finally beginning to act the way Republicans have acted for years. The writer thinks this is necessary in the short run, but in the long run it might give rise to one or two centrist parties, a more parliamentary system and maybe some changes to the Constitution.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/20/opinion/government-shutdown-democrats.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region

  552. This piece points out that Democrats, for better or worse, are finally beginning to act the way Republicans have acted for years. The writer thinks this is necessary in the short run, but in the long run it might give rise to one or two centrist parties, a more parliamentary system and maybe some changes to the Constitution.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/20/opinion/government-shutdown-democrats.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region

  561. Good article in today’s Observer by Andrew Rawnsley, subtitled Democracy is more fragile than many of us realised, but don’t believe that it is doomed.
    Takeaway sentence so far (not new, but well put):
    The dismantling of freedom begins with attacks on what some call “the soft guard rails” of democracy: unfettered media, an independent judiciary, a basic level of respect for political opponents. Freedom is not devoured in one gulp, but in a series of bite-size chunks.
    The link is here:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/21/democracy-is-more-fragile-than-many-of-us-realised-but-do-not-believe-that-it-is-doomed

  562. Good article in today’s Observer by Andrew Rawnsley, subtitled Democracy is more fragile than many of us realised, but don’t believe that it is doomed.
    Takeaway sentence so far (not new, but well put):
    The dismantling of freedom begins with attacks on what some call “the soft guard rails” of democracy: unfettered media, an independent judiciary, a basic level of respect for political opponents. Freedom is not devoured in one gulp, but in a series of bite-size chunks.
    The link is here:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/21/democracy-is-more-fragile-than-many-of-us-realised-but-do-not-believe-that-it-is-doomed

  567. i like this:”>https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/01/21/the-protection-racket/”>this: the GOP’s M.O. is to take something that’s working, break it, and then extract concessions from the Dems in exchange for fixing it.

  568. i like this:”>https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/01/21/the-protection-racket/”>this: the GOP’s M.O. is to take something that’s working, break it, and then extract concessions from the Dems in exchange for fixing it.

  573. As is probably often the case, we find out the truth decades later.
    Having seen the documentary, and read the article, one of the points is that we actually still don’t know the truth.

  574. As is probably often the case, we find out the truth decades later.
    Having seen the documentary, and read the article, one of the points is that we actually still don’t know the truth.

  575. “Having seen the documentary, and read the article, one of the points is that we actually still don’t know the truth.”
    I haven’t seen it, but agree with your point. ( Hell had to freeze over sometime.)

  576. “Having seen the documentary, and read the article, one of the points is that we actually still don’t know the truth.”
    I haven’t seen it, but agree with your point. ( Hell had to freeze over sometime.)

  579. Rather than worrying about what the CIA was doing in 1953, maybe we should worry about the NAZI/Putin regime hanging out in DC right now.
    Call your Senators and tell them some things. My Senators are standing strong, and I called and told them to do that. Hope y’all do the same, or give them a huge rash of *(&^ if they’re not supporting DACA people. Just saying – that’s the freaking lowest common denominator. F’ anyone who can’t find that much compassion.

  580. Rather than worrying about what the CIA was doing in 1953, maybe we should worry about the NAZI/Putin regime hanging out in DC right now.
    Call your Senators and tell them some things. My Senators are standing strong, and I called and told them to do that. Hope y’all do the same, or give them a huge rash of *(&^ if they’re not supporting DACA people. Just saying – that’s the freaking lowest common denominator. F’ anyone who can’t find that much compassion.

  581. Rather than worrying about what the CIA was doing in 1953, maybe we should worry about the NAZI/Putin regime hanging out in DC right now.
    Actually, there were some points in the review of Wormword that I thought were very apropos for the current times. However, I’m not really sure about this, it’s just this vague feeling in the back of my mind about this, so apologies if it is not really clear.
    Later, when Morris asks Hersh what Frank Olson did to deserve execution, Hersh responds with a faint trace of that smirk: “Guess what? I probably know, but I can’t tell you.” And he probably can’t, but we’re reminded of the younger man who took pleasure in the idea of his fellow journalists’ eating crow.
    Even though Morris’s documentary does eventually recount the outlines of the story Hersh has purportedly discovered—the execution of internal dissidents by the CIA’s “Office of Security”—the feeling Morris leaves us with is not the familiar satisfaction of the spy movie in which we’re finally let in on the secret, but rather a queasiness at the way in which the whole business of state secrecy is exploited in American culture.
    To unpack this a bit, at least from my viewpoint, I’m reminded of how much I valued and idolized Hersh (and still do). It’s not that he’s been revealed to be a fraud, but the review underlines that as much as Hersh was pushed to expose things, he was also driven by that young person’s desire to ‘his fellow journalists’ eating crow.’ and I think that there was probably a component of them being older that figured into that. “X revealed to be human” might be the headline.
    I feel like we have a really dangerous dynamic in journalism where the logic is ‘if someone is killing sacred cows, they have to be right’. That’s why Julian Assange and Glenn Greenwald were and continue to be lionized. Someone like Michael Wolff is needed because the mechanisms we have for reporting seem to not work. This TPM post gets at this.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-wolff-and-the-secret-of-the-russia-story
    This doesn’t seem like a problem that didn’t exist before this election, it is just that the Trump presidency has really thrown it into sharp relief.
    The review also has this
    In a 1949 study for the US Air Force, Yale’s Irving Janis claimed that the Soviets were using hypnosis, drugs, electroshock, and other means to extract false confessions.
    This is a peculiar statement, in that ‘claimed’ suggests that it probably wasn’t true. Yet we had Stalin’s show trials, where false confessions were obviously extracted. In fact, many at the time were convinced that the confessions were true because there were no visible signs of torture and the confessions themselves were so heartfelt. This is not to justify what the CIA was going, but a lot of the narrative goes missing if we don’t see that these weren’t simple claims about the Soviet Union, these were actual facts.
    This is not to pick a fight with sapient, but what the CIA was doing in the 50’s (and how it was revealed) seems linked to problems we are having with the current regime and reportage.
    At the end of the review, it says
    Even so, we keep indulging the fantasy of being in on the secret, and experiencing vicariously the sense of superiority that secrets confer. Most of us are, apparently, bored by transparency and accountability, and demand very little of the elected representatives appointed to oversight committees.
    I’m not sure how these statements are linked. I agree that the sense of superiority conferred by secrets is a dangerous drug, but I don’t see how the the boredom with transparency is linked to that. It seems like the only way to make someone change is to show them that they were played and were, at some point in time, stupid to believe something. Yet that seems a competitive impluse–‘ha, you’re an idiot cause you thought that!’
    This is all preliminary to a post, and I’m still trying to figure out what I want to say, but there is something here that nags at me and I’m not sure what it is.

  582. Rather than worrying about what the CIA was doing in 1953, maybe we should worry about the NAZI/Putin regime hanging out in DC right now.
    Actually, there were some points in the review of Wormword that I thought were very apropos for the current times. However, I’m not really sure about this, it’s just this vague feeling in the back of my mind about this, so apologies if it is not really clear.
    Later, when Morris asks Hersh what Frank Olson did to deserve execution, Hersh responds with a faint trace of that smirk: “Guess what? I probably know, but I can’t tell you.” And he probably can’t, but we’re reminded of the younger man who took pleasure in the idea of his fellow journalists’ eating crow.
    Even though Morris’s documentary does eventually recount the outlines of the story Hersh has purportedly discovered—the execution of internal dissidents by the CIA’s “Office of Security”—the feeling Morris leaves us with is not the familiar satisfaction of the spy movie in which we’re finally let in on the secret, but rather a queasiness at the way in which the whole business of state secrecy is exploited in American culture.
    To unpack this a bit, at least from my viewpoint, I’m reminded of how much I valued and idolized Hersh (and still do). It’s not that he’s been revealed to be a fraud, but the review underlines that as much as Hersh was pushed to expose things, he was also driven by that young person’s desire to ‘his fellow journalists’ eating crow.’ and I think that there was probably a component of them being older that figured into that. “X revealed to be human” might be the headline.
    I feel like we have a really dangerous dynamic in journalism where the logic is ‘if someone is killing sacred cows, they have to be right’. That’s why Julian Assange and Glenn Greenwald were and continue to be lionized. Someone like Michael Wolff is needed because the mechanisms we have for reporting seem to not work. This TPM post gets at this.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-wolff-and-the-secret-of-the-russia-story
    This doesn’t seem like a problem that didn’t exist before this election, it is just that the Trump presidency has really thrown it into sharp relief.
    The review also has this
    In a 1949 study for the US Air Force, Yale’s Irving Janis claimed that the Soviets were using hypnosis, drugs, electroshock, and other means to extract false confessions.
    This is a peculiar statement, in that ‘claimed’ suggests that it probably wasn’t true. Yet we had Stalin’s show trials, where false confessions were obviously extracted. In fact, many at the time were convinced that the confessions were true because there were no visible signs of torture and the confessions themselves were so heartfelt. This is not to justify what the CIA was going, but a lot of the narrative goes missing if we don’t see that these weren’t simple claims about the Soviet Union, these were actual facts.
    This is not to pick a fight with sapient, but what the CIA was doing in the 50’s (and how it was revealed) seems linked to problems we are having with the current regime and reportage.
    At the end of the review, it says
    Even so, we keep indulging the fantasy of being in on the secret, and experiencing vicariously the sense of superiority that secrets confer. Most of us are, apparently, bored by transparency and accountability, and demand very little of the elected representatives appointed to oversight committees.
    I’m not sure how these statements are linked. I agree that the sense of superiority conferred by secrets is a dangerous drug, but I don’t see how the the boredom with transparency is linked to that. It seems like the only way to make someone change is to show them that they were played and were, at some point in time, stupid to believe something. Yet that seems a competitive impluse–‘ha, you’re an idiot cause you thought that!’
    This is all preliminary to a post, and I’m still trying to figure out what I want to say, but there is something here that nags at me and I’m not sure what it is.

  583. As is probably often the case, we find out the truth decades later.
    Just read the current newsstand issue of Atlantic and the cover story about Putin. Plenty in there for Donald (and me) and Sapient, too!
    Is shutting down the government for the DACA’s worth it? I would say yes. Congressional leadership and the mfph are lying. They will NEVER fix DACA unless brought to their knees politically.
    This is a hill worth dying on.

  584. As is probably often the case, we find out the truth decades later.
    Just read the current newsstand issue of Atlantic and the cover story about Putin. Plenty in there for Donald (and me) and Sapient, too!
    Is shutting down the government for the DACA’s worth it? I would say yes. Congressional leadership and the mfph are lying. They will NEVER fix DACA unless brought to their knees politically.
    This is a hill worth dying on.

  585. This is a peculiar statement, in that ‘claimed’ suggests that it probably wasn’t true. Yet we had Stalin’s show trials, where false confessions were obviously extracted. In fact, many at the time were convinced that the confessions were true because there were no visible signs of torture and the confessions themselves were so heartfelt. This is not to justify what the CIA was going, but a lot of the narrative goes missing if we don’t see that these weren’t simple claims about the Soviet Union, these were actual facts.
    This is not to pick a fight with sapient, but what the CIA was doing in the 50’s (and how it was revealed) seems linked to problems we are having with the current regime and reportage.
    I think all of this is important, and difficult to sort out.
    I saw the documentary with other people, some of whom are younger – in their twenties. My generation took it for granted that the CIA did horrible stuff. We had very little interest in figuring out what drove the post-WWII bureaucracy – we mostly criticized it. My own parents were liberals, but not socialists or pro-Soviet people. They were in the anti-McCarthyite, but also anti-Communist, category. They were probably in the majority of folks, but we don’t really read about them – they made the Great Society happen. The things that were happening in Russia and China were scary and worrisome to most people. Although “most people” weren’t necessarily in favor of the excesses of the national security state at that time, they were used to secrecy (because of WWII) and were still testing out what was appropriate. Everyone I know (including me) would have condemned the excesses of the post-WWII intelligence community.
    My parents were completely behind the Church Committee. They were anti-Nixon, and anti-McCarthyism. They were Democrats. I could go on. Anyway, the country was learning. WWII was a catastrophic event in human history. I’ve posted this numerous times. Even so, a very smart kid that I know thought that we lost more people in Vietnam than in WWII.
    I think it’s really hard for people who have grown up in the ascendance of the US to get their head around what was going on in the heads of the previous generation. Again, my own parents would have been way against the excesses described (or posited) in Wormwood. But navigating that world was new territory, and it was a scary time.

  586. This is a peculiar statement, in that ‘claimed’ suggests that it probably wasn’t true. Yet we had Stalin’s show trials, where false confessions were obviously extracted. In fact, many at the time were convinced that the confessions were true because there were no visible signs of torture and the confessions themselves were so heartfelt. This is not to justify what the CIA was going, but a lot of the narrative goes missing if we don’t see that these weren’t simple claims about the Soviet Union, these were actual facts.
    This is not to pick a fight with sapient, but what the CIA was doing in the 50’s (and how it was revealed) seems linked to problems we are having with the current regime and reportage.
    I think all of this is important, and difficult to sort out.
    I saw the documentary with other people, some of whom are younger – in their twenties. My generation took it for granted that the CIA did horrible stuff. We had very little interest in figuring out what drove the post-WWII bureaucracy – we mostly criticized it. My own parents were liberals, but not socialists or pro-Soviet people. They were in the anti-McCarthyite, but also anti-Communist, category. They were probably in the majority of folks, but we don’t really read about them – they made the Great Society happen. The things that were happening in Russia and China were scary and worrisome to most people. Although “most people” weren’t necessarily in favor of the excesses of the national security state at that time, they were used to secrecy (because of WWII) and were still testing out what was appropriate. Everyone I know (including me) would have condemned the excesses of the post-WWII intelligence community.
    My parents were completely behind the Church Committee. They were anti-Nixon, and anti-McCarthyism. They were Democrats. I could go on. Anyway, the country was learning. WWII was a catastrophic event in human history. I’ve posted this numerous times. Even so, a very smart kid that I know thought that we lost more people in Vietnam than in WWII.
    I think it’s really hard for people who have grown up in the ascendance of the US to get their head around what was going on in the heads of the previous generation. Again, my own parents would have been way against the excesses described (or posited) in Wormwood. But navigating that world was new territory, and it was a scary time.

  587. This is a hill worth dying on.
    Agree.
    Lots of us freaked out when Trumpness happened. After I got myself together, I did a bit of work for the local legal aid group. DACA people were the folks I met first. I had known a couple of kids, but I met a few more. We cannot betray them. Anyone who does is a pure and simple racist. Sorry to call people out here, and I have probably had enough for this evening, but look at yourself in the mirror, anyone, who would hurt young people who did nothing at all, even arguably, wrong.
    So I’m going now, lest I get riled up in a way that offends.

  588. This is a hill worth dying on.
    Agree.
    Lots of us freaked out when Trumpness happened. After I got myself together, I did a bit of work for the local legal aid group. DACA people were the folks I met first. I had known a couple of kids, but I met a few more. We cannot betray them. Anyone who does is a pure and simple racist. Sorry to call people out here, and I have probably had enough for this evening, but look at yourself in the mirror, anyone, who would hurt young people who did nothing at all, even arguably, wrong.
    So I’m going now, lest I get riled up in a way that offends.

  589. I don’t want to get in fights here, so I won’t, but I think with respect to Russiagate and foreign policy we are probably being lied to by both the Trumpists and some of the mainstream who badly want a new Cold War. I go off on that more at Crooked Timber sometimes. I think we got lied to about Syria and who we supported. I think almost every bad thing you could say about Trump is basically true, but if Putin bought him you can’t tell from his foreign policy, because he is trying to start a war with Iran, Russia’s ally, and he is supplying weapon to the Ukrainians and he appears to want to stay in Syria without Assad or Putin’s approval. And when Flynn asked for a favor on behalf of Netanyahu, the Russians turned him down. Extreme narcissistic personality aside ( which is important since he could tweet his way to war with NK) , Trump looks to me like a bog standard Republican. I think some of the neocons only oppose him because they want their wars and various domestic policies run by someone who is mentally stable. The other Republicans support him because they are scared of his voters and because they figure they can still get many Republican policies passed.
    We are in an exceptionally weird period and I don’t expect to know the truth about what is gong on for decades, when I will most likely be dead. That was the relevance of the link to me. It is only in the past few years that Nixon’s messing around with the peace talks in 68 has become accepted as something that happened. People still argue about the 1980 election— I have forgotten the details.
    As for Hersh and Greenwald and others ( Chomsky comes to mind), I think being outside the mainstream and finding things out or writing things that upset the establishment will go to one’s head. Mainstream types find more validation in being part of the serious people as Atrios would say. We all have mixtures of good and bad motives for our political views and prejudices. In the specific case of Hersh, from what I read he never fit in too well at the NYT or other places.

  590. I don’t want to get in fights here, so I won’t, but I think with respect to Russiagate and foreign policy we are probably being lied to by both the Trumpists and some of the mainstream who badly want a new Cold War. I go off on that more at Crooked Timber sometimes. I think we got lied to about Syria and who we supported. I think almost every bad thing you could say about Trump is basically true, but if Putin bought him you can’t tell from his foreign policy, because he is trying to start a war with Iran, Russia’s ally, and he is supplying weapon to the Ukrainians and he appears to want to stay in Syria without Assad or Putin’s approval. And when Flynn asked for a favor on behalf of Netanyahu, the Russians turned him down. Extreme narcissistic personality aside ( which is important since he could tweet his way to war with NK) , Trump looks to me like a bog standard Republican. I think some of the neocons only oppose him because they want their wars and various domestic policies run by someone who is mentally stable. The other Republicans support him because they are scared of his voters and because they figure they can still get many Republican policies passed.
    We are in an exceptionally weird period and I don’t expect to know the truth about what is gong on for decades, when I will most likely be dead. That was the relevance of the link to me. It is only in the past few years that Nixon’s messing around with the peace talks in 68 has become accepted as something that happened. People still argue about the 1980 election— I have forgotten the details.
    As for Hersh and Greenwald and others ( Chomsky comes to mind), I think being outside the mainstream and finding things out or writing things that upset the establishment will go to one’s head. Mainstream types find more validation in being part of the serious people as Atrios would say. We all have mixtures of good and bad motives for our political views and prejudices. In the specific case of Hersh, from what I read he never fit in too well at the NYT or other places.

  597. i’d take the deal. it’s a short term extension, so if the GOP doesn’t follow-through, there will be another shutdown in a few weeks.

  598. i’d take the deal. it’s a short term extension, so if the GOP doesn’t follow-through, there will be another shutdown in a few weeks.

  599. the wall has gone from an uninterrupted 30 foot high barrier that Mexico would pay for, to a mix of wall, fence, and natural barriers that you, the American taxpayer, will pay for.
    it will not stop people from crossing the border. people are very creative, and you’re talking about a population who are willing to put themselves at risk of robbery, assault, rape, and death to get here. a stupid wall is not going to make them decide to stay home.
    it will not stop drug trafficking and related criminal enterprises because Americans really really really like to get high, and there’s lots of money to be made.
    the wall is political theater for people who think Mexicans with their raping robbing drug-dealing ways are streaming into the country and taking away their jobs. because they’ll work for $7 an hour, instead of $10. the fact that the job that’s being “stolen” only pays $10 an hour doesn’t seem to strike anybody as a more important issue.
    most people in this country are not interested in sending 800,000 DACA kids back to some country they have no memory of. most people in this country do not want to round up and export millions of people who live here, work here, pay taxes here, have families here, own homes and businesses here, but do not have proper documentation. because it’s profoundly stupid and cruel to do so, and most people, if they can tear themselves away from the freaking shrieking heads that assault us every day on the TV radio and internet with their insane shouting, are just not that stupid or cruel.
    the reason the government is shut down is because the national representation in Congress has two different views of what is best for the nation. and neither one has enough votes to prevail. so we are wedged for the moment.
    one of the parties in question has a strength of representation that is not justified by the number of their constituents. my suggestion is for everyone to work on getting folks to run against them, everywhere, in every state county town and village, and then to work on getting people to get off of their behinds and get to the polling place.
    and throw the reactionary jerks the hell out of government. if they hate government so much, and love the private sector so much, then let them go find honest jobs in the private sector and leave the rest of us the hell alone.

  600. the wall has gone from an uninterrupted 30 foot high barrier that Mexico would pay for, to a mix of wall, fence, and natural barriers that you, the American taxpayer, will pay for.
    it will not stop people from crossing the border. people are very creative, and you’re talking about a population who are willing to put themselves at risk of robbery, assault, rape, and death to get here. a stupid wall is not going to make them decide to stay home.
    it will not stop drug trafficking and related criminal enterprises because Americans really really really like to get high, and there’s lots of money to be made.
    the wall is political theater for people who think Mexicans with their raping robbing drug-dealing ways are streaming into the country and taking away their jobs. because they’ll work for $7 an hour, instead of $10. the fact that the job that’s being “stolen” only pays $10 an hour doesn’t seem to strike anybody as a more important issue.
    most people in this country are not interested in sending 800,000 DACA kids back to some country they have no memory of. most people in this country do not want to round up and export millions of people who live here, work here, pay taxes here, have families here, own homes and businesses here, but do not have proper documentation. because it’s profoundly stupid and cruel to do so, and most people, if they can tear themselves away from the freaking shrieking heads that assault us every day on the TV radio and internet with their insane shouting, are just not that stupid or cruel.
    the reason the government is shut down is because the national representation in Congress has two different views of what is best for the nation. and neither one has enough votes to prevail. so we are wedged for the moment.
    one of the parties in question has a strength of representation that is not justified by the number of their constituents. my suggestion is for everyone to work on getting folks to run against them, everywhere, in every state county town and village, and then to work on getting people to get off of their behinds and get to the polling place.
    and throw the reactionary jerks the hell out of government. if they hate government so much, and love the private sector so much, then let them go find honest jobs in the private sector and leave the rest of us the hell alone.

  605. one of the parties in question has a strength of representation that is not justified by the number of their constituents.
    i actually ran the numbers on the Senate representation last night.
    even with the current 49/51 split, the Dems in the Senate still represent 56.4% of Americans.
    Dem : 177,911,730
    GOP : 137,570,660
    (counting split states 50/50)

  606. one of the parties in question has a strength of representation that is not justified by the number of their constituents.
    i actually ran the numbers on the Senate representation last night.
    even with the current 49/51 split, the Dems in the Senate still represent 56.4% of Americans.
    Dem : 177,911,730
    GOP : 137,570,660
    (counting split states 50/50)

  609. “the reason the government is shut down is because the national representation in Congress has two different views of what is best for the nation. and neither one has enough votes to prevail. so we are wedged for the moment.”
    I do not believe this is true. I believe we are here because our political gamesmanship has convinced Americans that there is a good and a bad side. No matter how many things we agree on the other side is reactionary or communist or Stalin or Hitler when the other 47% are none of the above.
    In convincing the public this is true we have been convinced it is war for the soul of the nation, thus justifying winning at any cost.
    This justification is why we are here, Congress has an 18% approval rating but no one pays a price for that as long as my rep stands on principle.
    Our country is built on the premise that people of good will, even with significantly opposing views, can agree to compromise. As long as compromise remains a victim of winning at all costs we will not get back on track.
    I can point to dozens of examples on the Republican side where we have failed my expectations to even adequately govern, but I am equally aware of the Democrats failures here.
    It is not always the Dems fault, it’s always the fear of the American people of the collective other, both sides, that is at fault.

  610. “the reason the government is shut down is because the national representation in Congress has two different views of what is best for the nation. and neither one has enough votes to prevail. so we are wedged for the moment.”
    I do not believe this is true. I believe we are here because our political gamesmanship has convinced Americans that there is a good and a bad side. No matter how many things we agree on the other side is reactionary or communist or Stalin or Hitler when the other 47% are none of the above.
    In convincing the public this is true we have been convinced it is war for the soul of the nation, thus justifying winning at any cost.
    This justification is why we are here, Congress has an 18% approval rating but no one pays a price for that as long as my rep stands on principle.
    Our country is built on the premise that people of good will, even with significantly opposing views, can agree to compromise. As long as compromise remains a victim of winning at all costs we will not get back on track.
    I can point to dozens of examples on the Republican side where we have failed my expectations to even adequately govern, but I am equally aware of the Democrats failures here.
    It is not always the Dems fault, it’s always the fear of the American people of the collective other, both sides, that is at fault.

  611. i’d take the deal
    As would I, on balance. (As, FWIW, it seems to offer the best hope for the Dreamers in the short term, and maintaining the Dems’ chance of breaking through in November.)
    Just wondering what other folks thought.

  612. i’d take the deal
    As would I, on balance. (As, FWIW, it seems to offer the best hope for the Dreamers in the short term, and maintaining the Dems’ chance of breaking through in November.)
    Just wondering what other folks thought.

  613. I believe we are here because our political gamesmanship has convinced Americans that there is a good and a bad side.
    IMO there actually is a good and a bad side.
    I’m fine with finding compromise positions, because I recognize that not everyone holds the same values I do. And, that people who don’t hold those values live here, too.
    But I hold the values I hold, and I hold them because IMO they are right. They’re good.
    And the people who disagree with me no doubt do the same.
    That’s not gamesmanship. It’s a fundamental difference in values. Different people think different things are good. My values are not the same as yours. Or, whoever’s.
    IMO the folks in Congress should, at this point, utterly ignore the POTUS and the White House, make their own deal, because he’s a vain old fool. They should make their own deal, and put it in front of the POTUS. If he won’t sign it, then they should muster the votes to override him.
    And then we should turn the lights back on and move on.
    But that has nothing to do with my sense that there is a good and a bad side here.

  614. I believe we are here because our political gamesmanship has convinced Americans that there is a good and a bad side.
    IMO there actually is a good and a bad side.
    I’m fine with finding compromise positions, because I recognize that not everyone holds the same values I do. And, that people who don’t hold those values live here, too.
    But I hold the values I hold, and I hold them because IMO they are right. They’re good.
    And the people who disagree with me no doubt do the same.
    That’s not gamesmanship. It’s a fundamental difference in values. Different people think different things are good. My values are not the same as yours. Or, whoever’s.
    IMO the folks in Congress should, at this point, utterly ignore the POTUS and the White House, make their own deal, because he’s a vain old fool. They should make their own deal, and put it in front of the POTUS. If he won’t sign it, then they should muster the votes to override him.
    And then we should turn the lights back on and move on.
    But that has nothing to do with my sense that there is a good and a bad side here.

  615. “Our country is built on the premise that people of good will, even with significantly opposing views, can agree to compromise. As long as compromise remains a victim of winning at all costs we will not get back on track.”
    Hmm. So, it’s kumbaya after all.
    There are graveyards and statuary all over the country commemorating the spilled blood of the principled who believed nothing of the sort.
    Not a one of them believed in game theory.
    “I have often remarked in the United States that it is not easy to make a man understand that his presence may be dispensed with; hints will not always suffice to shake him off. I contradict an American at every word he says, to show him that his conversation bores me; he instantly labors with fresh pertinacity to convince me; I preserve a dogged silence, and he thinks I am meditating deeply on the truths which he is uttering; at last I rush from his company, and he supposes that some urgent business hurries me elsewhere. This man will never understand that he wearies me to extinction unless I tell him so: and the only way to get rid of him is to make him my enemy for life.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
    But, OK, I’m in the giving vein today. Take the deal.
    To secure a couple of weeks respite from budgetary chaos from those who have shown no good will …. and I’m not even counting the lout pig in the White House …. and nothing BUT ill will since Goldwater, to be generous …. toward this chimera called compromise, and just when the “Democrat” Party was starting to show some backbone.
    And, we’ll be interrupting Mulvaney’s, the dominatrix, cumming in his shorts as he fucks restrained Americans over, just leaving him more ammo for his next joyous display of sadism.
    But it’s two more weeks time for the Dreamer and CHIPs hostages to have the Red Cross smuggle in automatic weaponry to greet the next display of malign conservatism, so there is that.
    Let the Luntz conservative focus groups convene one more fucking time so his and Gingrich’s asshole offspring can sound off during this brief interim by calling me all of the names Luntz himself trained them to call me in 1994.
    I’m walking into ISIS-held Aleppo asking them to provide a wedding cake for my gay friends.
    I wonder how that’s going to go.
    I didn’t think THIS up:
    https://niskanencenter.org/blog/on-the-saying-that-extremism-in-defense-of-liberty-is-no-vice/

  616. “Our country is built on the premise that people of good will, even with significantly opposing views, can agree to compromise. As long as compromise remains a victim of winning at all costs we will not get back on track.”
    Hmm. So, it’s kumbaya after all.
    There are graveyards and statuary all over the country commemorating the spilled blood of the principled who believed nothing of the sort.
    Not a one of them believed in game theory.
    “I have often remarked in the United States that it is not easy to make a man understand that his presence may be dispensed with; hints will not always suffice to shake him off. I contradict an American at every word he says, to show him that his conversation bores me; he instantly labors with fresh pertinacity to convince me; I preserve a dogged silence, and he thinks I am meditating deeply on the truths which he is uttering; at last I rush from his company, and he supposes that some urgent business hurries me elsewhere. This man will never understand that he wearies me to extinction unless I tell him so: and the only way to get rid of him is to make him my enemy for life.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
    But, OK, I’m in the giving vein today. Take the deal.
    To secure a couple of weeks respite from budgetary chaos from those who have shown no good will …. and I’m not even counting the lout pig in the White House …. and nothing BUT ill will since Goldwater, to be generous …. toward this chimera called compromise, and just when the “Democrat” Party was starting to show some backbone.
    And, we’ll be interrupting Mulvaney’s, the dominatrix, cumming in his shorts as he fucks restrained Americans over, just leaving him more ammo for his next joyous display of sadism.
    But it’s two more weeks time for the Dreamer and CHIPs hostages to have the Red Cross smuggle in automatic weaponry to greet the next display of malign conservatism, so there is that.
    Let the Luntz conservative focus groups convene one more fucking time so his and Gingrich’s asshole offspring can sound off during this brief interim by calling me all of the names Luntz himself trained them to call me in 1994.
    I’m walking into ISIS-held Aleppo asking them to provide a wedding cake for my gay friends.
    I wonder how that’s going to go.
    I didn’t think THIS up:
    https://niskanencenter.org/blog/on-the-saying-that-extremism-in-defense-of-liberty-is-no-vice/

  617. I can see arguments both for and against this (accepting the good faith of the Republicans not being high amongst them…).
    On one hand, there has been a recurring lack of good faith. On the other, with what amounts to just a 2 week extension, McConnell will know that if he reneges, he will be right back here real soon. And at that point, Democrats would be insisting on getting DACA (and CHIP) in the next funding bill — whether it is temporary or permanent.

  618. I can see arguments both for and against this (accepting the good faith of the Republicans not being high amongst them…).
    On one hand, there has been a recurring lack of good faith. On the other, with what amounts to just a 2 week extension, McConnell will know that if he reneges, he will be right back here real soon. And at that point, Democrats would be insisting on getting DACA (and CHIP) in the next funding bill — whether it is temporary or permanent.

  619. it will not stop people from crossing the border. people are very creative, and you’re talking about a population who are willing to put themselves at risk of robbery, assault, rape, and death to get here. a stupid wall is not going to make them decide to stay home.
    Especially since the vast majority of illegal immigrants already arrive without dealing with the southern border. The wall always been symbolic, not practical — whether Trump’s fans are smart enough to realize that or not. So it’s just a question of telling him that he can say “I got a wall!”. It doesn’t matter what, if anything, actually gets built.

  620. it will not stop people from crossing the border. people are very creative, and you’re talking about a population who are willing to put themselves at risk of robbery, assault, rape, and death to get here. a stupid wall is not going to make them decide to stay home.
    Especially since the vast majority of illegal immigrants already arrive without dealing with the southern border. The wall always been symbolic, not practical — whether Trump’s fans are smart enough to realize that or not. So it’s just a question of telling him that he can say “I got a wall!”. It doesn’t matter what, if anything, actually gets built.

  621. the folks in Congress should, at this point, utterly ignore the POTUS and the White House, make their own deal
    It’s been obvious for some time, to pretty much everybody involved (except Trump, and maybe even to him) that this would eventually have to be the case.
    It’s a matter of when/if the Republicans, specifically the Republican leadership in Congress, rediscovers a spine. So far, they seem more terrified of possibly irritating Trump’s fan base and their own caucus’s nut cases than they are distressed about not governing at all.
    Eventually the polls will tell them that they are making a mistake. Until then, not too hopeful.

  622. the folks in Congress should, at this point, utterly ignore the POTUS and the White House, make their own deal
    It’s been obvious for some time, to pretty much everybody involved (except Trump, and maybe even to him) that this would eventually have to be the case.
    It’s a matter of when/if the Republicans, specifically the Republican leadership in Congress, rediscovers a spine. So far, they seem more terrified of possibly irritating Trump’s fan base and their own caucus’s nut cases than they are distressed about not governing at all.
    Eventually the polls will tell them that they are making a mistake. Until then, not too hopeful.

  627. IMO there actually is a good and a bad side.
    There is, in fact, a good and a bad side. This racist and his boss represent the bad side, and Republicans are supporting them. This is about racism. It’s not about anything else.

  628. IMO there actually is a good and a bad side.
    There is, in fact, a good and a bad side. This racist and his boss represent the bad side, and Republicans are supporting them. This is about racism. It’s not about anything else.

  631. Although mocked as a turtle, Mitch McConnell is in fact a snake. He has no honor. He is a thief who stole a SCOTUS seat, and he brags about it. Even today he referred to DACA folks as “illegal immigrants”. For months he has held CHIP hostage to bludgeon DACA with. Mitch McConnell, the epitome of institutional Republicanism, is a scumbag.
    To trust him is to be a fool.
    Is Schumer a fool? Maybe not. Maybe he knows he can hold McConnell to his word, as worthless as it is, this time around. Maybe. But I don’t see how Schumer can do it without shutting He, Trumps government down again in February.
    And Schumer, like McConnell, thinks that “the American people” is a thing. And not just a thing, but a gullible, easily-manipulated thing that can always be counted on to split the difference between decency and viciousness. So the vicious always have the political advantage, and must always be yielded to, in Schumer’s thinking.
    If Schumer is right about that, we have a much bigger problem than lousy politicians, here in America.
    –TP

  632. Although mocked as a turtle, Mitch McConnell is in fact a snake. He has no honor. He is a thief who stole a SCOTUS seat, and he brags about it. Even today he referred to DACA folks as “illegal immigrants”. For months he has held CHIP hostage to bludgeon DACA with. Mitch McConnell, the epitome of institutional Republicanism, is a scumbag.
    To trust him is to be a fool.
    Is Schumer a fool? Maybe not. Maybe he knows he can hold McConnell to his word, as worthless as it is, this time around. Maybe. But I don’t see how Schumer can do it without shutting He, Trumps government down again in February.
    And Schumer, like McConnell, thinks that “the American people” is a thing. And not just a thing, but a gullible, easily-manipulated thing that can always be counted on to split the difference between decency and viciousness. So the vicious always have the political advantage, and must always be yielded to, in Schumer’s thinking.
    If Schumer is right about that, we have a much bigger problem than lousy politicians, here in America.
    –TP

  633. Is Schumer a fool? Maybe not. Maybe he knows he can hold McConnell to his word, as worthless as it is, this time around. Maybe. But I don’t see how Schumer can do it without shutting He, Trumps government down again in February.
    I think that’s exactly how he does it. McConnell holds to his promise . . . no matter how foreign doing such a thing is to him. Because otherwise he knows, beyond a doubt, that there will be another shutdown. And this time, he won’t have CHIP to beat the Democrats with.
    Worse, another shutdown means another opportunity for the President to muck up any attempt to do a deal. This time, his aides managed to keep him quiet, mostly. But could they pull it off again? Not a good bet for McConnell to make.

  634. Is Schumer a fool? Maybe not. Maybe he knows he can hold McConnell to his word, as worthless as it is, this time around. Maybe. But I don’t see how Schumer can do it without shutting He, Trumps government down again in February.
    I think that’s exactly how he does it. McConnell holds to his promise . . . no matter how foreign doing such a thing is to him. Because otherwise he knows, beyond a doubt, that there will be another shutdown. And this time, he won’t have CHIP to beat the Democrats with.
    Worse, another shutdown means another opportunity for the President to muck up any attempt to do a deal. This time, his aides managed to keep him quiet, mostly. But could they pull it off again? Not a good bet for McConnell to make.

  635. I believe we are here because our political gamesmanship has convinced Americans that there is a good and a bad side.
    You might consider that there might actually be a “good side” and a “bad side”. Back in the period 1940’s – 1960’s the two major parties were actually coalitions of confounding interests. The GOP had liberals like Jacob Javits and Nelson (ugh) Rockefeller, and the Democrats had powerful folks (read scum) such as James O. Eastland, and John Stennis.
    Compromises, most of the time, could be reached, or the inertia of our system of checks and balances would simply suffocate differences.
    Now we have two major parties that are increasingly more ideologically uniform and coherent.
    In such a setting, compromise is viewed by many as essentially a defeat.
    It’s only going to get hotter here until one side essentially prevails, a development that, in turn, could lead to another major political realignment.
    I’m rooting for “my” side. I’m pretty sure you are too.

  636. I believe we are here because our political gamesmanship has convinced Americans that there is a good and a bad side.
    You might consider that there might actually be a “good side” and a “bad side”. Back in the period 1940’s – 1960’s the two major parties were actually coalitions of confounding interests. The GOP had liberals like Jacob Javits and Nelson (ugh) Rockefeller, and the Democrats had powerful folks (read scum) such as James O. Eastland, and John Stennis.
    Compromises, most of the time, could be reached, or the inertia of our system of checks and balances would simply suffocate differences.
    Now we have two major parties that are increasingly more ideologically uniform and coherent.
    In such a setting, compromise is viewed by many as essentially a defeat.
    It’s only going to get hotter here until one side essentially prevails, a development that, in turn, could lead to another major political realignment.
    I’m rooting for “my” side. I’m pretty sure you are too.

  637. Alaska Rep Don Young of Alaska, no easy mark, was on NPR yesterday lamenting the fact that EVERYTHING, every jot and tittle, of business must go through Paul’s (Ryan) and Nancy’s (Pelosi) Offices before it sees any of the light of day and stays 100% in the leadership’s control.
    Who did this to us?
    https://www.thenation.com/article/how-newt-gingrich-crippled-congress/
    republican politicians come to Washington D.C. also determined, by agreement with the RNC and conservative fascist donors, since the Gingrich era and at Gingrich’s original insistence, to NEVER socialize outside business hours with members of the other side of the aisle.
    They leave their families in their districts so the latter won’t be corrupted by the EVIL in Washington D.C.
    republicans hate the very purpose of Congress: compromising in the carrying out of the Nation’s business.
    The public hates Congress and the media.
    The very core of the republican mission accomplished.
    I’d like to know who the 18% are who approved of Congress’s performance when that last poll was taken during McConnell’s reign.
    I’ll wager most of them were saying they liked its NON-performance under republican rule. I’ll wager most of them approved most of all Congress NOT performing one of its very basic Constitutional functions, providing hearings for Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland.

  638. Alaska Rep Don Young of Alaska, no easy mark, was on NPR yesterday lamenting the fact that EVERYTHING, every jot and tittle, of business must go through Paul’s (Ryan) and Nancy’s (Pelosi) Offices before it sees any of the light of day and stays 100% in the leadership’s control.
    Who did this to us?
    https://www.thenation.com/article/how-newt-gingrich-crippled-congress/
    republican politicians come to Washington D.C. also determined, by agreement with the RNC and conservative fascist donors, since the Gingrich era and at Gingrich’s original insistence, to NEVER socialize outside business hours with members of the other side of the aisle.
    They leave their families in their districts so the latter won’t be corrupted by the EVIL in Washington D.C.
    republicans hate the very purpose of Congress: compromising in the carrying out of the Nation’s business.
    The public hates Congress and the media.
    The very core of the republican mission accomplished.
    I’d like to know who the 18% are who approved of Congress’s performance when that last poll was taken during McConnell’s reign.
    I’ll wager most of them were saying they liked its NON-performance under republican rule. I’ll wager most of them approved most of all Congress NOT performing one of its very basic Constitutional functions, providing hearings for Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland.

  639. I confess to feeling a bit smug. (Which I savor, because opportunities come so seldom.)
    Back on Jan 17 (at just after 10 PM) I said:
    So answer me this. Why not take the CHIP renewal? And catch DACA in the next couple of weeks? Yeah, it would be good to get both now. But sometimes it makes sense to take half a loaf now, and the other half tomorrow.
    Which looks amazingly like exactly the deal that has been agreed to. (OK, they also got McConnell’s word that he would bring a DACA bill to a vote. For whatever that proves to be worth.) If even I could see it….

  640. I confess to feeling a bit smug. (Which I savor, because opportunities come so seldom.)
    Back on Jan 17 (at just after 10 PM) I said:
    So answer me this. Why not take the CHIP renewal? And catch DACA in the next couple of weeks? Yeah, it would be good to get both now. But sometimes it makes sense to take half a loaf now, and the other half tomorrow.
    Which looks amazingly like exactly the deal that has been agreed to. (OK, they also got McConnell’s word that he would bring a DACA bill to a vote. For whatever that proves to be worth.) If even I could see it….

  641. I’ll wager most of them were saying they liked its NON-performance under republican rule.
    You know, maybe just once, these folks could take their shutdown bluster to finality and get the “small government”* they so fervently claim they desire.
    *What they really want is overweening private power, just as much “bigness” as the Federal Register, but in their hands.

  642. I’ll wager most of them were saying they liked its NON-performance under republican rule.
    You know, maybe just once, these folks could take their shutdown bluster to finality and get the “small government”* they so fervently claim they desire.
    *What they really want is overweening private power, just as much “bigness” as the Federal Register, but in their hands.

  643. I am still trying to make sense of what just happened in the Senate, and tres shock, there is actually disagreement in the LGM comment section.
    (Messed up the linkage to relevant part of the comments at LGM. I think it was off-topic deep in “Hated Glenn Greenwald is a paid Putin agent” thread, which I have no comment on)
    Of course, the Dembot take is that Repubs just got totally ruled by Schumer, but CHIP was Repubs biggest leverage, and I can’t understand them giving up 6 years of CHIP and getting nothing.
    Quote from somebody:
    “The one thing that worries me a bit is that every potential presidential contender in the Senate voted against this. That reads as bad to me; that reads as “they know DACA won’t get done and they want to be on the right side of this issue; if they thought DACA was gonna get done they’d have agreed to this.” I might just be pessimistic but that’s a real concern.”
    McConnell’s calculation might be that owning failure on DACA will kill Latino turnout for Dems in November.
    (For the record, 6 years on CHIP is GREAT, depending on the cost.)

  644. I am still trying to make sense of what just happened in the Senate, and tres shock, there is actually disagreement in the LGM comment section.
    (Messed up the linkage to relevant part of the comments at LGM. I think it was off-topic deep in “Hated Glenn Greenwald is a paid Putin agent” thread, which I have no comment on)
    Of course, the Dembot take is that Repubs just got totally ruled by Schumer, but CHIP was Repubs biggest leverage, and I can’t understand them giving up 6 years of CHIP and getting nothing.
    Quote from somebody:
    “The one thing that worries me a bit is that every potential presidential contender in the Senate voted against this. That reads as bad to me; that reads as “they know DACA won’t get done and they want to be on the right side of this issue; if they thought DACA was gonna get done they’d have agreed to this.” I might just be pessimistic but that’s a real concern.”
    McConnell’s calculation might be that owning failure on DACA will kill Latino turnout for Dems in November.
    (For the record, 6 years on CHIP is GREAT, depending on the cost.)

  645. McConnell’s calculation might be that owning failure on DACA will kill Latino turnout for Dems in November.
    Trump killed DACA. he could have let it continue, but he didn’t. i suspect that essentially no Latinos who care about the issue will not know that.
    Dems and some Republicans, like Flake, have been working on a deal for many weeks. and McConnell was already on record promising a vote if they could get a deal. and they were close, before Trump blew it up.
    and now McConnell’s on record promising a vote on DACA. if he reneges or tries poisoning the process, it’s not going to be the Dems’ fault.
    they’ve been trying.

  646. McConnell’s calculation might be that owning failure on DACA will kill Latino turnout for Dems in November.
    Trump killed DACA. he could have let it continue, but he didn’t. i suspect that essentially no Latinos who care about the issue will not know that.
    Dems and some Republicans, like Flake, have been working on a deal for many weeks. and McConnell was already on record promising a vote if they could get a deal. and they were close, before Trump blew it up.
    and now McConnell’s on record promising a vote on DACA. if he reneges or tries poisoning the process, it’s not going to be the Dems’ fault.
    they’ve been trying.

  647. What they really want is overweening private power
    “The people who own the country ought to govern it”.
    John Jay, founding father, contributor to the Federalist Papers, SCOTUS justice.
    It’s not like it’s a new idea.

  648. What they really want is overweening private power
    “The people who own the country ought to govern it”.
    John Jay, founding father, contributor to the Federalist Papers, SCOTUS justice.
    It’s not like it’s a new idea.

  649. I think the Senate Dems took a gamble that this would be the least worst chance for DACA, and who’s to say they’re wrong ?
    If the Republicans are determined to have mass deportations, it will happen – but at least this way they can’t do it pretending they had to do it to maintain the running if the government.
    If McConnell reneges on the deal, or if Ryan refuses to bring the resulting bill to the House, then they will declare themselves to be evil shits. And 80% of voters will condemn them for it.

  650. I think the Senate Dems took a gamble that this would be the least worst chance for DACA, and who’s to say they’re wrong ?
    If the Republicans are determined to have mass deportations, it will happen – but at least this way they can’t do it pretending they had to do it to maintain the running if the government.
    If McConnell reneges on the deal, or if Ryan refuses to bring the resulting bill to the House, then they will declare themselves to be evil shits. And 80% of voters will condemn them for it.

  651. “Damn John Jay! Damn everyone who won’t damn John Jay!! Damn everyone that won’t put lights in his windows and sit up all night damning John Jay!!!”
    And THAT, AND his likeness hanged in effigy across the young America, was in answer to one of few times Jay compromised by forging the John Jay treaty to forestall yet more war with England.
    And because GFTNC gets a kick out of that quote.

  652. “Damn John Jay! Damn everyone who won’t damn John Jay!! Damn everyone that won’t put lights in his windows and sit up all night damning John Jay!!!”
    And THAT, AND his likeness hanged in effigy across the young America, was in answer to one of few times Jay compromised by forging the John Jay treaty to forestall yet more war with England.
    And because GFTNC gets a kick out of that quote.

  653. I know the derp is that McConnell and Ryan are total idiots (even though they are the ones with the majorities) but McConnell must have some calculation that giving up CHIP was to his benefit.
    Of course, they delayed the shutdown, maybe with the idea that Dems will cave the next time if only DACA is at stake.
    As I said, my guess is that Repubs are studying midterm turnout in Nevada and Arizona, other places

  654. I know the derp is that McConnell and Ryan are total idiots (even though they are the ones with the majorities) but McConnell must have some calculation that giving up CHIP was to his benefit.
    Of course, they delayed the shutdown, maybe with the idea that Dems will cave the next time if only DACA is at stake.
    As I said, my guess is that Repubs are studying midterm turnout in Nevada and Arizona, other places

  655. Nigel, are your rose-colored glasses prescription?
    1) How many times do Democrats like Schumer and about 30 others need to get rolled before “who’s to say they’re wrong?” gets to sound like a stupid question? Roll me once, shame on you; roll me 5 or 6 times, shame on me — but I think my shame will get me some votes from “undecided” or “independent” or “moderate” voters. That seems to be the institutional Democrats’ terminal delusion. Do you know what the Martingale “system” for playing roulette is? You know it doesn’t work, right?
    2) If mass deportations happen and do not result in massive civil disobedience that literally shuts down He, Trump’s government, then the US is not worth saving.
    3) McConnell and Ryan are known to be evil shits already. The only Americans who doubt it are the sort of people who, if He, Trump declared himself a god, would say “Oh, well, let’s compromise on demi-god.” That’s not to mention the substantial fraction of Americans who would just go ahead and build shrines to him, and sacrifice virgins on the altars.
    4) The 27% crazification factor in American politics is well known. No way would 80% “condemn” racist authoritarians, ever.
    –TP

  656. Nigel, are your rose-colored glasses prescription?
    1) How many times do Democrats like Schumer and about 30 others need to get rolled before “who’s to say they’re wrong?” gets to sound like a stupid question? Roll me once, shame on you; roll me 5 or 6 times, shame on me — but I think my shame will get me some votes from “undecided” or “independent” or “moderate” voters. That seems to be the institutional Democrats’ terminal delusion. Do you know what the Martingale “system” for playing roulette is? You know it doesn’t work, right?
    2) If mass deportations happen and do not result in massive civil disobedience that literally shuts down He, Trump’s government, then the US is not worth saving.
    3) McConnell and Ryan are known to be evil shits already. The only Americans who doubt it are the sort of people who, if He, Trump declared himself a god, would say “Oh, well, let’s compromise on demi-god.” That’s not to mention the substantial fraction of Americans who would just go ahead and build shrines to him, and sacrifice virgins on the altars.
    4) The 27% crazification factor in American politics is well known. No way would 80% “condemn” racist authoritarians, ever.
    –TP

  657. evil shits.
    “Evil shits are running the country” is GG and my position. And, I suspect, the majority that isn’t playing Blue Team vs Red Team touch football politics.
    And 80% of voters will condemn them for it.
    ROTFL. 70 Dem Senators and 40 Dem Governors right there on the horizon.

  658. evil shits.
    “Evil shits are running the country” is GG and my position. And, I suspect, the majority that isn’t playing Blue Team vs Red Team touch football politics.
    And 80% of voters will condemn them for it.
    ROTFL. 70 Dem Senators and 40 Dem Governors right there on the horizon.

  659. I usually agree with you, TP, but I think Schumer did the right thing here. CHIP is really important, and was an urgent thing to get done right away. And, no wj – they did it correctly by doing a mini-shutdown, with more to come.
    The Republicans are Nazis and sadists, but they control the government, and we have to get rid of them. We aren’t going to win much in the legislative arena until we have more votes. We have to be solidly together to win this war. No disloyalty. (I’m excluding people like bob mcmanus, who is working for the other side. His views don’t count in this war, and I’m not going to do anything to prevail upon lefty nihilists.)

  660. I usually agree with you, TP, but I think Schumer did the right thing here. CHIP is really important, and was an urgent thing to get done right away. And, no wj – they did it correctly by doing a mini-shutdown, with more to come.
    The Republicans are Nazis and sadists, but they control the government, and we have to get rid of them. We aren’t going to win much in the legislative arena until we have more votes. We have to be solidly together to win this war. No disloyalty. (I’m excluding people like bob mcmanus, who is working for the other side. His views don’t count in this war, and I’m not going to do anything to prevail upon lefty nihilists.)

  665. It’s not like it’s a new idea.
    True ‘dat, but even good libruls tend to forget that a good deal of the time….way too much of the time for my tastes.
    Of course, they delayed the shutdown, maybe with the idea that Dems will cave the next time if only DACA is at stake.
    There are still many ‘issues’ at stake. ‘Defense’ spending, offsets, etc. Drump gave Congress until March (?) to bring him a DACA deal to sign. Then what?
    What poison pill will the House attach to the next CR?

  666. It’s not like it’s a new idea.
    True ‘dat, but even good libruls tend to forget that a good deal of the time….way too much of the time for my tastes.
    Of course, they delayed the shutdown, maybe with the idea that Dems will cave the next time if only DACA is at stake.
    There are still many ‘issues’ at stake. ‘Defense’ spending, offsets, etc. Drump gave Congress until March (?) to bring him a DACA deal to sign. Then what?
    What poison pill will the House attach to the next CR?

  667. bob mcmanus, who is working for the other side.
    I don’t work for any side that says there are only two sides, a good side and a bad side. The side that says that is a bad side.
    OT:1st ticket in 25 years, failure to signal lane change, fucking pig. Tried out an experiment, got out of my car, shut the door, walked to my trunk, made sure my hands were visible. Pig freaked all the fuck out, we argued.
    Fucking pigs want to look in the car (“I know how to do my job”, pig said. Why do you need to look in the car on a lane change ticket, pig.
    Cause they need to be able to say I reached under the blanket on the passenger side after they cap my ass.

  668. bob mcmanus, who is working for the other side.
    I don’t work for any side that says there are only two sides, a good side and a bad side. The side that says that is a bad side.
    OT:1st ticket in 25 years, failure to signal lane change, fucking pig. Tried out an experiment, got out of my car, shut the door, walked to my trunk, made sure my hands were visible. Pig freaked all the fuck out, we argued.
    Fucking pigs want to look in the car (“I know how to do my job”, pig said. Why do you need to look in the car on a lane change ticket, pig.
    Cause they need to be able to say I reached under the blanket on the passenger side after they cap my ass.

  669. …but I think Schumer did the right thing here.
    Schumer is not Joe Cannon or Sam Rayburn, much less Majority Leader LBJ. He simply didn’t have the votes.

  670. …but I think Schumer did the right thing here.
    Schumer is not Joe Cannon or Sam Rayburn, much less Majority Leader LBJ. He simply didn’t have the votes.

  673. One funny: Lots of traffic on side road two houses from mine, many parents picking up kids from neighborhood elementary. Gawking, they all know me after 35 years walking dogs.
    At one point I put my hands on the top of my head, and pig says “I didn’t tell you to put your hands on your head.”
    What is this, Simon Says?

  674. One funny: Lots of traffic on side road two houses from mine, many parents picking up kids from neighborhood elementary. Gawking, they all know me after 35 years walking dogs.
    At one point I put my hands on the top of my head, and pig says “I didn’t tell you to put your hands on your head.”
    What is this, Simon Says?

  675. And because GFTNC gets a kick out of that quote
    And the kick is in no way diminished: as soon as I saw it I smiled with pleasure.

  676. And because GFTNC gets a kick out of that quote
    And the kick is in no way diminished: as soon as I saw it I smiled with pleasure.

  677. Morally Reprehensible says TPM
    Dems Are Losers and Cowards says Slate
    Vox is all like balanced and moderate
    “They didn’t get anything close to that. That has left some in their ranks disillusioned, particularly if the immigration debate becomes disconnected from the spending talks. Moving an immigration bill with a spending bill was supposed to be the minority’s plan to make sure House Republicans didn’t block it.
    “It was a great disappointment to me,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), who opposed the procedural vote, said.
    Asked if she trusts McConnell to follow through, she added: “Chuck Schumer trusts him. I haven’t been party to that discussion, so I really can’t comment. But the strategy was to keep it affixed to a must-pass vehicle because there was great worry that the House wouldn’t pass it. The leadership did it this way; they must know something I don’t.”
    Yeah, they got CHIP. Now it is going to come down to caving on DACA, giving Trump an immigration bill he signs, or keeping the gov’t doors closed forever.
    Dems will cave, and the Dembots at LGM will says it was the right thing to do, and blame Greenwald, Jacobin and me when they lose in 2018 and 2020.

  678. Morally Reprehensible says TPM
    Dems Are Losers and Cowards says Slate
    Vox is all like balanced and moderate
    “They didn’t get anything close to that. That has left some in their ranks disillusioned, particularly if the immigration debate becomes disconnected from the spending talks. Moving an immigration bill with a spending bill was supposed to be the minority’s plan to make sure House Republicans didn’t block it.
    “It was a great disappointment to me,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), who opposed the procedural vote, said.
    Asked if she trusts McConnell to follow through, she added: “Chuck Schumer trusts him. I haven’t been party to that discussion, so I really can’t comment. But the strategy was to keep it affixed to a must-pass vehicle because there was great worry that the House wouldn’t pass it. The leadership did it this way; they must know something I don’t.”
    Yeah, they got CHIP. Now it is going to come down to caving on DACA, giving Trump an immigration bill he signs, or keeping the gov’t doors closed forever.
    Dems will cave, and the Dembots at LGM will says it was the right thing to do, and blame Greenwald, Jacobin and me when they lose in 2018 and 2020.

  679. Nigel, are your rose-colored glasses prescription?
    No.
    The Democrats were losing the public opinion battle on the shutdown – that matters. Regroup, reframe the argument.
    It’s absolutely clear that public opinion supports the DACA; it’s equally clear that it did not support the government shutdown on the issue.
    This is a war, and you have to pick the right battle and the right time for the battle.

  680. Nigel, are your rose-colored glasses prescription?
    No.
    The Democrats were losing the public opinion battle on the shutdown – that matters. Regroup, reframe the argument.
    It’s absolutely clear that public opinion supports the DACA; it’s equally clear that it did not support the government shutdown on the issue.
    This is a war, and you have to pick the right battle and the right time for the battle.

  683. House Dems Extremely Disappointed …picture of Nancy . She Sad. Picture of Ryan. He laughing and smiling.
    But LGM thinks Dems pulled one over on McConnell. People really need to look at how sick and corrupt that faction is. The Clinton-Obama loyalists. They fon’t care if they lose or people suffer as long as the money and righteousness keeps flowing. They worship their submissive wetting.

  684. House Dems Extremely Disappointed …picture of Nancy . She Sad. Picture of Ryan. He laughing and smiling.
    But LGM thinks Dems pulled one over on McConnell. People really need to look at how sick and corrupt that faction is. The Clinton-Obama loyalists. They fon’t care if they lose or people suffer as long as the money and righteousness keeps flowing. They worship their submissive wetting.

  685. “House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) declared Monday afternoon that she would oppose the package and urge her caucus to do the same.”
    Time for LGM and Balloon Juice to cast away that devil Pelosi along with the rest of us leftwing purity maniacs.

  686. “House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) declared Monday afternoon that she would oppose the package and urge her caucus to do the same.”
    Time for LGM and Balloon Juice to cast away that devil Pelosi along with the rest of us leftwing purity maniacs.

  689. “The people who own the country ought to govern it”.
    John Jay, founding father, contributor to the Federalist Papers, SCOTUS justice.
    By which, unfortunately, he did not mean “Native Americans”.

  690. “The people who own the country ought to govern it”.
    John Jay, founding father, contributor to the Federalist Papers, SCOTUS justice.
    By which, unfortunately, he did not mean “Native Americans”.

  693. The side that says that is a bad side.
    that’s pretty much all of the sides.
    OT:1st ticket in 25 years, failure to signal lane change, fucking pig. Tried out an experiment…
    I’m sitting here shaking my head.
    It’s absolutely clear that public opinion supports the DACA; it’s equally clear that it did not support the government shutdown on the issue.
    fwiw, this analysis seems about right, to me.

  694. The side that says that is a bad side.
    that’s pretty much all of the sides.
    OT:1st ticket in 25 years, failure to signal lane change, fucking pig. Tried out an experiment…
    I’m sitting here shaking my head.
    It’s absolutely clear that public opinion supports the DACA; it’s equally clear that it did not support the government shutdown on the issue.
    fwiw, this analysis seems about right, to me.

  699. The Clinton-Obama loyalists. They fon’t care if they lose or people suffer as long as the money and righteousness keeps flowing. They worship their submissive wetting.
    you’ve almost completely detached from reality.

  700. The Clinton-Obama loyalists. They fon’t care if they lose or people suffer as long as the money and righteousness keeps flowing. They worship their submissive wetting.
    you’ve almost completely detached from reality.

  701. Nigel: The Democrats were losing the public opinion battle on the shutdown
    I am not sure there is such a thing as THE public. If there is, and if (as the media are wont to intimate) “public opinion” went against the Republicans for the 2013 shutdown, I’ll be damned if I can see how that ended up hurting the GOP. But let that pass.
    The public is composed of trumpeteers, of principled conservatives, of swing voters, of pragmatic Democrats, of bleeding-heart liberals — not to mention a large contingent of the uninformed and the apathetic. Would somebody explain to me, please, which part of the public is MORE inclined to turn out and vote for Democrats who cave to Republicans in order to curry favor with it?
    Will “the public” give Democrats credit for liberating the hostage known as CHIP? Not unless “the public” recognizes that the GOP was holding CHIP hostage. How is that message supposed to get through, and to which part of “the public”?
    We live in an America where bob mcmanus getting out of his car at a trivial traffic stop is a breath-taking act of courage, because “the public” takes the high-handed authoritarianism of “law enforcement” as a given, not an outrage. We live in an America where “the public” is assumed to be OK with the GOP collecting ransom for doing the merely decent thing. We live in an America where “the public” accepts that He, Trump must be paid off to protect the Dreamers that He, Himself put in jeopardy. We live in an America where “the public” rewards hardball, no matter how much it piously praises “bipartisanship”.
    Schumer and the Democrats need to start, today, to show “the public” that they are not embarrassed to play hardball. In particular, they need to make it clear that even if the GOP does NOT weasel out of “a DACA deal”, the very fact that a “deal” must be made is deplorable.
    –TP

  702. Nigel: The Democrats were losing the public opinion battle on the shutdown
    I am not sure there is such a thing as THE public. If there is, and if (as the media are wont to intimate) “public opinion” went against the Republicans for the 2013 shutdown, I’ll be damned if I can see how that ended up hurting the GOP. But let that pass.
    The public is composed of trumpeteers, of principled conservatives, of swing voters, of pragmatic Democrats, of bleeding-heart liberals — not to mention a large contingent of the uninformed and the apathetic. Would somebody explain to me, please, which part of the public is MORE inclined to turn out and vote for Democrats who cave to Republicans in order to curry favor with it?
    Will “the public” give Democrats credit for liberating the hostage known as CHIP? Not unless “the public” recognizes that the GOP was holding CHIP hostage. How is that message supposed to get through, and to which part of “the public”?
    We live in an America where bob mcmanus getting out of his car at a trivial traffic stop is a breath-taking act of courage, because “the public” takes the high-handed authoritarianism of “law enforcement” as a given, not an outrage. We live in an America where “the public” is assumed to be OK with the GOP collecting ransom for doing the merely decent thing. We live in an America where “the public” accepts that He, Trump must be paid off to protect the Dreamers that He, Himself put in jeopardy. We live in an America where “the public” rewards hardball, no matter how much it piously praises “bipartisanship”.
    Schumer and the Democrats need to start, today, to show “the public” that they are not embarrassed to play hardball. In particular, they need to make it clear that even if the GOP does NOT weasel out of “a DACA deal”, the very fact that a “deal” must be made is deplorable.
    –TP

  703. I am not sure there is such a thing as THE public.
    Agreed, which is why I referred to the battle of public opinion. Without a significant majority, you’re not going to stop Trump rerunning Operation Wetback for the 21stC… I don’t have any illusions about either him or his enablers in Congress, but like it or not, for now they have majorities there.
    Schumer and the Democrats need to start, today, to show “the public” that they are not embarrassed to play hardball.
    Again agreed – but I think they first needed to demonstrate they were prepared to deal. Voters are fickle, and if the Democrats are going to go all in on a shutdown confrontation, they need to be absolutely sure who is going to get the blame for the negative consequences.
    Whether Schumer has that determination, I really don’t know.
    We’ll see … perhaps the noise being made from those criticising his climbdown will stiffen his spine ?
    I’m perfectly willing to admit I am wrong, but that’s my 2c.

  704. I am not sure there is such a thing as THE public.
    Agreed, which is why I referred to the battle of public opinion. Without a significant majority, you’re not going to stop Trump rerunning Operation Wetback for the 21stC… I don’t have any illusions about either him or his enablers in Congress, but like it or not, for now they have majorities there.
    Schumer and the Democrats need to start, today, to show “the public” that they are not embarrassed to play hardball.
    Again agreed – but I think they first needed to demonstrate they were prepared to deal. Voters are fickle, and if the Democrats are going to go all in on a shutdown confrontation, they need to be absolutely sure who is going to get the blame for the negative consequences.
    Whether Schumer has that determination, I really don’t know.
    We’ll see … perhaps the noise being made from those criticising his climbdown will stiffen his spine ?
    I’m perfectly willing to admit I am wrong, but that’s my 2c.

  705. the very fact that a “deal” must be made is deplorable.
    with losing elections comes great difficulties in advancing legislation.

  706. the very fact that a “deal” must be made is deplorable.
    with losing elections comes great difficulties in advancing legislation.

  707. you’ve almost completely detached from reality.
    But that’s been true of pretty much all devout Marxists for at least half a century. Marx had some good insights for his time. But those who have made his ideas into theology can only maintain their faith by being extremely careful what facts they let in to their reality. (Not unlike some other groups of “faithful” we all have experience with….)

  708. you’ve almost completely detached from reality.
    But that’s been true of pretty much all devout Marxists for at least half a century. Marx had some good insights for his time. But those who have made his ideas into theology can only maintain their faith by being extremely careful what facts they let in to their reality. (Not unlike some other groups of “faithful” we all have experience with….)

  709. “the very fact that a “deal” must be made is deplorable.”
    Not so much. The fact that it is being made is really phenomenal because, like everything else, it isn’t a standalone action. It has consequences.
    Interestingly, I caught a snippet on CNN yesterday where a Dreamer who is some leader in the DACA movement who said it would be a great start toward overall amnesty. To the Dreamers it isn’t a standalone issue either, which the Congress seems to understand.
    So “Just pass DACA” isn’t even a rational position.

  710. “the very fact that a “deal” must be made is deplorable.”
    Not so much. The fact that it is being made is really phenomenal because, like everything else, it isn’t a standalone action. It has consequences.
    Interestingly, I caught a snippet on CNN yesterday where a Dreamer who is some leader in the DACA movement who said it would be a great start toward overall amnesty. To the Dreamers it isn’t a standalone issue either, which the Congress seems to understand.
    So “Just pass DACA” isn’t even a rational position.

  711. Nigel’s link produces this:
    Republican leaders are under increasing pressure from their own members to reach a long-term budget agreement by Feb. 8, when the government next runs out of money.
    The question in my mind is, Have they even done the committee work that would be required to do anything more than a CR? I know that they managed to do the Veterans Administration. But I don’t know if anything else has been done.

  712. Nigel’s link produces this:
    Republican leaders are under increasing pressure from their own members to reach a long-term budget agreement by Feb. 8, when the government next runs out of money.
    The question in my mind is, Have they even done the committee work that would be required to do anything more than a CR? I know that they managed to do the Veterans Administration. But I don’t know if anything else has been done.

  713. “Just pass DACA” isn’t even a rational position.
    That would be true if the only two possible positions were
    – deport everybody who is here illegally,
    – grant blanket amnesty to everybody who is here illegally. Eventually, and preferably sooner rather than later.
    But it’s entirely rational to argue that those who were brought here as children are in a different category from those who came (or overstayed their visas, which is more common) of their own volition as adults. And, being different categories, deserving of different treatment.

  714. “Just pass DACA” isn’t even a rational position.
    That would be true if the only two possible positions were
    – deport everybody who is here illegally,
    – grant blanket amnesty to everybody who is here illegally. Eventually, and preferably sooner rather than later.
    But it’s entirely rational to argue that those who were brought here as children are in a different category from those who came (or overstayed their visas, which is more common) of their own volition as adults. And, being different categories, deserving of different treatment.

  715. So “Just pass DACA” isn’t even a rational position.
    DACA exists. They can turn it into legislation so that the president can’t simply rescind it of his own accord. And all legislation has consequences, otherwise it would be pointless. Virtually nothing is a “standalone issue,” yet issues get dealt with all the time, none the less.
    What I’m wondering, as public opinion (or “public opinion” if you prefer) is concerned, is how the outrage in some quarters over caving on DACA, even if temporarily, will affect public opinion (aka “public opinion”) in general. Does this raise awareness and win more people over to support DACA (or whatever a new version might be called when made into a bill)? Does it turn more people off than it brings in as supporters? Does it just not matter at this point?

  716. So “Just pass DACA” isn’t even a rational position.
    DACA exists. They can turn it into legislation so that the president can’t simply rescind it of his own accord. And all legislation has consequences, otherwise it would be pointless. Virtually nothing is a “standalone issue,” yet issues get dealt with all the time, none the less.
    What I’m wondering, as public opinion (or “public opinion” if you prefer) is concerned, is how the outrage in some quarters over caving on DACA, even if temporarily, will affect public opinion (aka “public opinion”) in general. Does this raise awareness and win more people over to support DACA (or whatever a new version might be called when made into a bill)? Does it turn more people off than it brings in as supporters? Does it just not matter at this point?

  717. Marty: So “Just pass DACA” isn’t even a rational position.
    So tell us, Marty: what’s a “rational position”?
    What price do YOU want in exchange for outright citizenship for people who entered the US as involuntarily as you did?
    I assume from what you said that demanding outright citizenship for Dreamers would be “rational”, however deplorable you find it.
    –TP

  718. Marty: So “Just pass DACA” isn’t even a rational position.
    So tell us, Marty: what’s a “rational position”?
    What price do YOU want in exchange for outright citizenship for people who entered the US as involuntarily as you did?
    I assume from what you said that demanding outright citizenship for Dreamers would be “rational”, however deplorable you find it.
    –TP

  719. is how the outrage in some quarters over caving on DACA, even if temporarily, will affect public opinion
    it’s a certainty that “conservative” support for DACA will dry up over the next couple of weeks, since the Dems have declared it to be something they like.

  720. is how the outrage in some quarters over caving on DACA, even if temporarily, will affect public opinion
    it’s a certainty that “conservative” support for DACA will dry up over the next couple of weeks, since the Dems have declared it to be something they like.

  721. I think citizenship is the goal, I think all of the next level immigration laws, chain migration if that’s the term, shouldn’t apply. I don’t think illegal immigrants who are the parents of Dreamers get a pass.
    I don’t think the lottery numbers make it an issue I lose sleep over either way. I think we need more H1_Bs and less L1s.
    I don’t care about the wall either way, we have wasted more money on unimportant campaign promises. I suspect the Dems will take it off the table at the last minute because it is such a good issue for them.
    Other immigration stuff I don’t care so much about how we compromise on them, but it would be better to say we had an immigration bill that addressed all the issues so we don’t have to keep revisiting it.

  722. I think citizenship is the goal, I think all of the next level immigration laws, chain migration if that’s the term, shouldn’t apply. I don’t think illegal immigrants who are the parents of Dreamers get a pass.
    I don’t think the lottery numbers make it an issue I lose sleep over either way. I think we need more H1_Bs and less L1s.
    I don’t care about the wall either way, we have wasted more money on unimportant campaign promises. I suspect the Dems will take it off the table at the last minute because it is such a good issue for them.
    Other immigration stuff I don’t care so much about how we compromise on them, but it would be better to say we had an immigration bill that addressed all the issues so we don’t have to keep revisiting it.

  725. We have all the appropriations completed and passed by the house, a full budget, so does that mean we have a budget?

  726. We have all the appropriations completed and passed by the house, a full budget, so does that mean we have a budget?

  729. We have all the appropriations completed and passed by the house, a full budget
    So what you are saying is that if McConnell will just bring those bills up for a vote in the Senate, we could be done? Surely at least some of them are non-controversial enough to get passed quickly.

  730. We have all the appropriations completed and passed by the house, a full budget
    So what you are saying is that if McConnell will just bring those bills up for a vote in the Senate, we could be done? Surely at least some of them are non-controversial enough to get passed quickly.

  731. There are about 325 million people in the US. We admit about 1 million legal residents per year.
    One third of one percent of the population.
    There are something like 5 million green card applications waiting to be processed. So, some number of the “undocumented aliens” are people who came here in good faith, are doing all the right things, and are just waiting for the big wheels of government bureaucracy to turn.
    Personally, my solution to the no good very bad horrible immigration problem is issue more visas. If you want to come here, work, make a life, my personal feeling is welcome aboard. I don’t see a problem.
    Regarding the lottery, a good friend of mine and his cousin emigrated here from Ireland. No money, really, just a couple of young guys.
    Their visas were running out when one of the lottery programs was introduced. Apparently, there was some geographic aspect of it. The feds were going to try to spread the goodness around to folks applying from different places in the country.
    So, my buddy and cousin got in the car and drove up and down the eastern seaboard, posting lottery applications in every post office they passed. I guess there was a fee associated with each application. They paid thousands out of pocket to do it, and they really didn’t have a lot of thousands at the time.
    They both got in. They both are small business owners, my buddy’s the busiest drummer I know and also has a dental prosthesis business. His cousin runs a home cleaning business, employs about a half dozen people.
    My buddy’s wife, also an immigrant from Spain, is an interesting artist who has given Ted talks on her work. My buddy’s building a house for his wife and young daughter, on a nice piece of property he saved up to buy over about 25 years of working his ass off.
    Any sane nation would bend over backwards to have people like that in their country. So lotteries are fine with me.
    As far as the new improved ICE regime, there are people in my community who have lived here for years or decades, and are in the process of being separated from their spouses and kids and deported back to their country of origin. I have no idea what benefit this nation will derive from that.
    Gee, why was my friend’s kid upset at the prospect of President Trump, way back in November of 2016? His parents must have been filling his mind with hate. They suck!
    Or, maybe he was just thinking about the kids he goes to school with who might get sent away, or whose parents might simply not be there when they get home from school.
    It happens.
    People who are rounded up by ICE can spend months in holding facilities waiting for their cases to be heard. Not after having been found guilty of anything, not after having been designated for deportation, just waiting.
    It’s freaking cruel.

  732. There are about 325 million people in the US. We admit about 1 million legal residents per year.
    One third of one percent of the population.
    There are something like 5 million green card applications waiting to be processed. So, some number of the “undocumented aliens” are people who came here in good faith, are doing all the right things, and are just waiting for the big wheels of government bureaucracy to turn.
    Personally, my solution to the no good very bad horrible immigration problem is issue more visas. If you want to come here, work, make a life, my personal feeling is welcome aboard. I don’t see a problem.
    Regarding the lottery, a good friend of mine and his cousin emigrated here from Ireland. No money, really, just a couple of young guys.
    Their visas were running out when one of the lottery programs was introduced. Apparently, there was some geographic aspect of it. The feds were going to try to spread the goodness around to folks applying from different places in the country.
    So, my buddy and cousin got in the car and drove up and down the eastern seaboard, posting lottery applications in every post office they passed. I guess there was a fee associated with each application. They paid thousands out of pocket to do it, and they really didn’t have a lot of thousands at the time.
    They both got in. They both are small business owners, my buddy’s the busiest drummer I know and also has a dental prosthesis business. His cousin runs a home cleaning business, employs about a half dozen people.
    My buddy’s wife, also an immigrant from Spain, is an interesting artist who has given Ted talks on her work. My buddy’s building a house for his wife and young daughter, on a nice piece of property he saved up to buy over about 25 years of working his ass off.
    Any sane nation would bend over backwards to have people like that in their country. So lotteries are fine with me.
    As far as the new improved ICE regime, there are people in my community who have lived here for years or decades, and are in the process of being separated from their spouses and kids and deported back to their country of origin. I have no idea what benefit this nation will derive from that.
    Gee, why was my friend’s kid upset at the prospect of President Trump, way back in November of 2016? His parents must have been filling his mind with hate. They suck!
    Or, maybe he was just thinking about the kids he goes to school with who might get sent away, or whose parents might simply not be there when they get home from school.
    It happens.
    People who are rounded up by ICE can spend months in holding facilities waiting for their cases to be heard. Not after having been found guilty of anything, not after having been designated for deportation, just waiting.
    It’s freaking cruel.

  733. Chain migration:
    One of the best guys I ever worked with was an Agile process specialist. He was from Armenia, had built and sold a nice medical visualization technology company before coming here. We brought him in to spearhead some serious company-wide engineering culture changes, which is a really hard thing to do. He was getting it done.
    He had permanent residency. His wife could not get that status.
    He now lives in CA, and makes his considerable skill set available to a company based in Toronto.
    Ironically, he works about half the month in Cambridge MA. As a Canadian resident.
    I love the United States, but we can be a very very very stupid country. We are being one now.

  734. Chain migration:
    One of the best guys I ever worked with was an Agile process specialist. He was from Armenia, had built and sold a nice medical visualization technology company before coming here. We brought him in to spearhead some serious company-wide engineering culture changes, which is a really hard thing to do. He was getting it done.
    He had permanent residency. His wife could not get that status.
    He now lives in CA, and makes his considerable skill set available to a company based in Toronto.
    Ironically, he works about half the month in Cambridge MA. As a Canadian resident.
    I love the United States, but we can be a very very very stupid country. We are being one now.

  735. If immigrants were guns, “conservatives” would be bringing up stories about how many crimes were prevented by them, rather than the ones committed by them. Instead, we, as a nation, make them afraid to talk to the police.

  736. If immigrants were guns, “conservatives” would be bringing up stories about how many crimes were prevented by them, rather than the ones committed by them. Instead, we, as a nation, make them afraid to talk to the police.

  737. Everybody knows somebody, good people, good for them. Laws aren’t designed for the eight people you happen to know, I gather some of whom still didn’t follow the law.
    What’s cruel is people breaking the law and expecting, actually demanding, amnesty while telling their kids and others kids the consequences of their actions are someone else’s fault.
    Also too, people who did everything right and still are at risk due to bureaucratic error are not who we are talking about, they have the support of everyone I know.

  738. Everybody knows somebody, good people, good for them. Laws aren’t designed for the eight people you happen to know, I gather some of whom still didn’t follow the law.
    What’s cruel is people breaking the law and expecting, actually demanding, amnesty while telling their kids and others kids the consequences of their actions are someone else’s fault.
    Also too, people who did everything right and still are at risk due to bureaucratic error are not who we are talking about, they have the support of everyone I know.

  739. What’s cruel is people breaking the law and expecting, actually demanding, amnesty while telling their kids and others kids the consequences of their actions are someone else’s fault.
    I sure wish you’d face the consequences for all the weed you’ve smoked over the years. Sorry to be vindictive, but there you go.

  740. What’s cruel is people breaking the law and expecting, actually demanding, amnesty while telling their kids and others kids the consequences of their actions are someone else’s fault.
    I sure wish you’d face the consequences for all the weed you’ve smoked over the years. Sorry to be vindictive, but there you go.

  741. a kid was raised here from a child, pledged to the fucking flag every day in an American school, went to college or joined the military, did everything the same as every other kid in America, is every bit of an American as some jackhole who, through no virtue of his own, was born here.

  742. a kid was raised here from a child, pledged to the fucking flag every day in an American school, went to college or joined the military, did everything the same as every other kid in America, is every bit of an American as some jackhole who, through no virtue of his own, was born here.

  745. Marty: I think citizenship is the goal, I think all of the next level immigration laws, chain migration if that’s the term, shouldn’t apply.
    Marty,
    My question was “What price do YOU want” in exchange for Dreamer citizenship? If the above was meant to answer that, it seems your price is to withhold from them some of the rights maternity-ward immigrants (aka native-born Americans) are entitled to.
    To be fair to you, I will suppose that you would address “chain migration” by restricting the right of even native-born Americans to bring in their foreign-born relatives.
    Also too, never mind “everyone you know”; it’s everybody you vote for that’s the problem.
    –TP

  746. Marty: I think citizenship is the goal, I think all of the next level immigration laws, chain migration if that’s the term, shouldn’t apply.
    Marty,
    My question was “What price do YOU want” in exchange for Dreamer citizenship? If the above was meant to answer that, it seems your price is to withhold from them some of the rights maternity-ward immigrants (aka native-born Americans) are entitled to.
    To be fair to you, I will suppose that you would address “chain migration” by restricting the right of even native-born Americans to bring in their foreign-born relatives.
    Also too, never mind “everyone you know”; it’s everybody you vote for that’s the problem.
    –TP

  747. What’s cruel is people breaking the law and expecting, actually demanding, amnesty while telling their kids and others kids the consequences of their actions are someone else’s fault.
    I’m not even sure what this means. Who’s doing this, in what context, and how is it cruel?

  748. What’s cruel is people breaking the law and expecting, actually demanding, amnesty while telling their kids and others kids the consequences of their actions are someone else’s fault.
    I’m not even sure what this means. Who’s doing this, in what context, and how is it cruel?

  749. Laws aren’t designed for the eight people you happen to know
    Then who are they designed for?
    How are any of the people they are “designed for” different than the people I happen to know?
    This guy actually holds a green card. Been here since 1979, when was 5. He’s a doctor, married, has kids.
    They pulled him in for stuff he did in 1992, when he was a teenager. Destruction of property worth less than $100, receiving stolen goods worth less than $100.
    Ever break anything worth less than $100 when you were a knucklehead kid?
    The guy is now sitting in county lockup, waiting for his hearing.
    What is the freaking point of it? What good thing is accomplished by arresting this guy, locking him up, and threatening to deport him?
    This stuff is just pointless harmful stupidity. There is no value in it, it’s just f***ing with people’s lives for no good end.

  750. Laws aren’t designed for the eight people you happen to know
    Then who are they designed for?
    How are any of the people they are “designed for” different than the people I happen to know?
    This guy actually holds a green card. Been here since 1979, when was 5. He’s a doctor, married, has kids.
    They pulled him in for stuff he did in 1992, when he was a teenager. Destruction of property worth less than $100, receiving stolen goods worth less than $100.
    Ever break anything worth less than $100 when you were a knucklehead kid?
    The guy is now sitting in county lockup, waiting for his hearing.
    What is the freaking point of it? What good thing is accomplished by arresting this guy, locking him up, and threatening to deport him?
    This stuff is just pointless harmful stupidity. There is no value in it, it’s just f***ing with people’s lives for no good end.

  751. the whole “chain migration” thing, like literally everything that comes out of the White House these days, is a flaming crock of nonsense.
    it takes years to get people over here on F4 visas. the government is currently working through visa applications that were filed in 2004. 14 years! maybe even as long as 23 years! plus, there are hard caps (in the tens of thousands) on the total number of siblings and of married children that are allowed to migrate here. and your ability to get your relatives over here are tied to your income.
    it’s practically impossible to get your whole family over here – human lifetimes are too short for everyone in an extended family to get through the system.

    Add all of these factors together, and it becomes clear that an immigrant won’t be able to bring that many relatives to the US over the course of his or her lifetime. Vaughan’s study found that as of 2015, immigrants who came to the US from 1981 to 2000 had sponsored an average of 1.77 relatives to come join them. The most recent immigrants in the study — those who came to the US in the late 1990s — had sponsored the most relatives: 3.46. But both of those numbers include the minor children they brought with them at the time: In other words, they were hardly starting 3.46 new “chains.”

    but, no, we have to sit here and watch “conservatives” freak themselves out over yet another crock of nonsense that was invented just to keep them from maybe agreeing with a liberal about something.

  752. the whole “chain migration” thing, like literally everything that comes out of the White House these days, is a flaming crock of nonsense.
    it takes years to get people over here on F4 visas. the government is currently working through visa applications that were filed in 2004. 14 years! maybe even as long as 23 years! plus, there are hard caps (in the tens of thousands) on the total number of siblings and of married children that are allowed to migrate here. and your ability to get your relatives over here are tied to your income.
    it’s practically impossible to get your whole family over here – human lifetimes are too short for everyone in an extended family to get through the system.

    Add all of these factors together, and it becomes clear that an immigrant won’t be able to bring that many relatives to the US over the course of his or her lifetime. Vaughan’s study found that as of 2015, immigrants who came to the US from 1981 to 2000 had sponsored an average of 1.77 relatives to come join them. The most recent immigrants in the study — those who came to the US in the late 1990s — had sponsored the most relatives: 3.46. But both of those numbers include the minor children they brought with them at the time: In other words, they were hardly starting 3.46 new “chains.”

    but, no, we have to sit here and watch “conservatives” freak themselves out over yet another crock of nonsense that was invented just to keep them from maybe agreeing with a liberal about something.

  753. What’s cruel is people breaking the law and expecting, actually demanding, amnesty…
    Not sure how that is “cruel”, but OK. So don’t give them amnesty. Then what?
    If you believe we should devote the resources it will take to round them all up and throw them and their DACA kids over the border, then just say so.
    It strikes me that conservatives like to whine about ‘illegals’ because it is great political theater, but they really have no solution to the “problem”.
    This is because at heart the problem is this: Business owners just love those low cost workers.

  754. What’s cruel is people breaking the law and expecting, actually demanding, amnesty…
    Not sure how that is “cruel”, but OK. So don’t give them amnesty. Then what?
    If you believe we should devote the resources it will take to round them all up and throw them and their DACA kids over the border, then just say so.
    It strikes me that conservatives like to whine about ‘illegals’ because it is great political theater, but they really have no solution to the “problem”.
    This is because at heart the problem is this: Business owners just love those low cost workers.

  755. So what you are saying is that if McConnell will just bring those bills up for a vote in the Senate, we could be done? Surely at least some of them are non-controversial enough to get passed quickly.
    Yes. McConnell controls the agenda, not the Dems. The problem is the House passed big increases for defense and no such parity increases for domestic programs, just to mention ONE example of fiscal assholery. There are many others.
    The GOP had already used their reconciliation card to get tax cuts, so they have to get 60 votes to approve the House passed appropriations.
    They put the filibuster club in Chucky S’s hand, and now they are whining because he used it.
    This mess is essentially one the GOP created.

  756. So what you are saying is that if McConnell will just bring those bills up for a vote in the Senate, we could be done? Surely at least some of them are non-controversial enough to get passed quickly.
    Yes. McConnell controls the agenda, not the Dems. The problem is the House passed big increases for defense and no such parity increases for domestic programs, just to mention ONE example of fiscal assholery. There are many others.
    The GOP had already used their reconciliation card to get tax cuts, so they have to get 60 votes to approve the House passed appropriations.
    They put the filibuster club in Chucky S’s hand, and now they are whining because he used it.
    This mess is essentially one the GOP created.

  757. Cruelty is as cruelty does.
    The premise was cruelty. The ideology is cruelty. The big philosophical underpinning is cruelty. The policy is cruelty. The point is cruelty.

  758. Cruelty is as cruelty does.
    The premise was cruelty. The ideology is cruelty. The big philosophical underpinning is cruelty. The policy is cruelty. The point is cruelty.

  759. ” it seems your price is to withhold from them some of the rights maternity-ward immigrants (aka native-born Americans) are entitled to.”
    Yes there are complexities. But I want chain migration limited for Dreamers. Otherwise you are granting amnesty to their parents also. That simple concept is a problem for a lot of people I know. You cant use DACA to grant backdoor amnesty to the people who caused the problem.

  760. ” it seems your price is to withhold from them some of the rights maternity-ward immigrants (aka native-born Americans) are entitled to.”
    Yes there are complexities. But I want chain migration limited for Dreamers. Otherwise you are granting amnesty to their parents also. That simple concept is a problem for a lot of people I know. You cant use DACA to grant backdoor amnesty to the people who caused the problem.

  761. Who’s doing this…
    Rachael Maddow.
    in what context…
    Duh. On her show?
    and how is it cruel?
    Her smirk can open an oyster at 50 paces. Now that is cruel.

  762. Who’s doing this…
    Rachael Maddow.
    in what context…
    Duh. On her show?
    and how is it cruel?
    Her smirk can open an oyster at 50 paces. Now that is cruel.

  763. “This mess is essentially one the GOP created.”
    I love this, when the Republicans stop something from passing it is the Republicans fault, when the Democrats prevent something from passing it is the Republicans fault. And yes, of course it is, because they wont simply say yes to your policies.

  764. “This mess is essentially one the GOP created.”
    I love this, when the Republicans stop something from passing it is the Republicans fault, when the Democrats prevent something from passing it is the Republicans fault. And yes, of course it is, because they wont simply say yes to your policies.

  765. But I want chain migration limited for Dreamers. Otherwise you are granting amnesty to their parents also.
    “chain migration” and amnesty for Dreamers’ parents are two separate issues. some Dems want to include parents if Dreamers are given amnesty, but that’s not chain migration. that’s letting people who are already here stay here.

  766. But I want chain migration limited for Dreamers. Otherwise you are granting amnesty to their parents also.
    “chain migration” and amnesty for Dreamers’ parents are two separate issues. some Dems want to include parents if Dreamers are given amnesty, but that’s not chain migration. that’s letting people who are already here stay here.

  767. But I want chain migration limited for Dreamers. Otherwise you are granting amnesty to their parents also. That simple concept is a problem for a lot of people I know. You cant use DACA to grant backdoor amnesty to the people who caused the problem.
    Would it be hard to simply add a caveat to the chain migration option to bar those who have broken US immigration law? Not advocating that, necessarily, just asking if it would be all that difficult.

  768. But I want chain migration limited for Dreamers. Otherwise you are granting amnesty to their parents also. That simple concept is a problem for a lot of people I know. You cant use DACA to grant backdoor amnesty to the people who caused the problem.
    Would it be hard to simply add a caveat to the chain migration option to bar those who have broken US immigration law? Not advocating that, necessarily, just asking if it would be all that difficult.

  769. from the Vox article i linked above:

    The use of “chain migration” in the current debate over DACA, to refer to DACA recipients allowing their parents to become legal immigrants, complicates the matter even further. Because the parents of DACA recipients have, by definition, lived in the US as unauthorized immigrants, this isn’t really about bringing new people into the US — it’s about legalizing people who are already here (or bringing people back who have been deported, something US policy already makes pretty hard).
    The insistence among some Republicans that “Dreamers” not be allowed to sponsor their parents, even after they become US citizens, is really about not wanting to “reward” unauthorized immigrants for living in the US without papers. They’re worried about losing “control” in a slightly different sense — worried that any “reward” for illegal behavior will incentivize a new wave of unauthorized migration to take advantage of potential rewards. This is pretty far afield from the way that “chain migration” is commonly understood — but that’s the word being used in the DACA debate anyway, not least because the president has helped turn it into a buzzword.
    Because these memes, and the fears that they provoke, are all so tightly connected, “chain migration” is both an ideological concern about America selecting immigrants based on their merit, and a racist smokescreen for fears of demographic change. It can be hard to separate the two. And it’s certainly not in the interests of the opponents of “chain migration” to try.

  770. from the Vox article i linked above:

    The use of “chain migration” in the current debate over DACA, to refer to DACA recipients allowing their parents to become legal immigrants, complicates the matter even further. Because the parents of DACA recipients have, by definition, lived in the US as unauthorized immigrants, this isn’t really about bringing new people into the US — it’s about legalizing people who are already here (or bringing people back who have been deported, something US policy already makes pretty hard).
    The insistence among some Republicans that “Dreamers” not be allowed to sponsor their parents, even after they become US citizens, is really about not wanting to “reward” unauthorized immigrants for living in the US without papers. They’re worried about losing “control” in a slightly different sense — worried that any “reward” for illegal behavior will incentivize a new wave of unauthorized migration to take advantage of potential rewards. This is pretty far afield from the way that “chain migration” is commonly understood — but that’s the word being used in the DACA debate anyway, not least because the president has helped turn it into a buzzword.
    Because these memes, and the fears that they provoke, are all so tightly connected, “chain migration” is both an ideological concern about America selecting immigrants based on their merit, and a racist smokescreen for fears of demographic change. It can be hard to separate the two. And it’s certainly not in the interests of the opponents of “chain migration” to try.

  771. I love this, when the Republicans stop something from passing it is the Republicans fault, when the Democrats prevent something from passing it is the Republicans fault.
    No. It is just pointing out legislative malpractice. The GOP chose tax cuts for the rich over passing their budget priorities.

  772. I love this, when the Republicans stop something from passing it is the Republicans fault, when the Democrats prevent something from passing it is the Republicans fault.
    No. It is just pointing out legislative malpractice. The GOP chose tax cuts for the rich over passing their budget priorities.

  773. I’m still interested in the explanation of why Marty is such a law and order man, except for the laws he finds personally inconvenient.
    I’m in favor of legalizing marijuana too, but c’mon – Marty is violating federal law if and when he partakes, and I’m pretty sure he hasn’t been averse to violating state law too. Which all seems like a victimless crime until you factor in the violent drug lords who facilitated that for so many years.
    In contrast to most undocumented immigrants, who violate a civil, not criminal, statute, in order to escape violence, feed their families, find a better life here, in contravention of laws that were originally passed to exclude people of various ethnic groups that people were afraid of.
    So, what’s your philosophy on “law abidingness” Marty? And, for that matter, libertarianism, in the spirit of live and let live?

  774. I’m still interested in the explanation of why Marty is such a law and order man, except for the laws he finds personally inconvenient.
    I’m in favor of legalizing marijuana too, but c’mon – Marty is violating federal law if and when he partakes, and I’m pretty sure he hasn’t been averse to violating state law too. Which all seems like a victimless crime until you factor in the violent drug lords who facilitated that for so many years.
    In contrast to most undocumented immigrants, who violate a civil, not criminal, statute, in order to escape violence, feed their families, find a better life here, in contravention of laws that were originally passed to exclude people of various ethnic groups that people were afraid of.
    So, what’s your philosophy on “law abidingness” Marty? And, for that matter, libertarianism, in the spirit of live and let live?

  775. If I had ever done anything like that, and gotten caught, I could have served a suspended sentence, hypothetically, and never ones blamed the cop for arresting me.
    But, people who come or stay here illegally are breaking the law every minute of every day. So if they get arrested and deported they shouldn’t blame the cop that arrested them.
    To paraphrase some people I know on other subjects, every oecd? first world country limits immigration, most more strictly than we do. All told Canada takes about 300k per year and none say if you happen to sneak in then you get to stay.
    We happen to have an historically poor country with porous access to a long border and very lax temp visa enforcement. Both should be fixed.
    But none of that is new or even partisan. Every administration in my lifetime has been for better border security and various other immigration enforcement improvements.
    So this is mostly hyperpartisan rhetoric. The law isn’t cruel, the enforcement isnt intentionally cruel, although getting arrested does suck, it is not meant to be cruel and if I were to protest it would be to improve the efficiency of the process. Then lots of people would just get deported faster, but those that didn’t would go home sooner.

  776. If I had ever done anything like that, and gotten caught, I could have served a suspended sentence, hypothetically, and never ones blamed the cop for arresting me.
    But, people who come or stay here illegally are breaking the law every minute of every day. So if they get arrested and deported they shouldn’t blame the cop that arrested them.
    To paraphrase some people I know on other subjects, every oecd? first world country limits immigration, most more strictly than we do. All told Canada takes about 300k per year and none say if you happen to sneak in then you get to stay.
    We happen to have an historically poor country with porous access to a long border and very lax temp visa enforcement. Both should be fixed.
    But none of that is new or even partisan. Every administration in my lifetime has been for better border security and various other immigration enforcement improvements.
    So this is mostly hyperpartisan rhetoric. The law isn’t cruel, the enforcement isnt intentionally cruel, although getting arrested does suck, it is not meant to be cruel and if I were to protest it would be to improve the efficiency of the process. Then lots of people would just get deported faster, but those that didn’t would go home sooner.

  777. If I had ever done anything like that, and gotten caught, I could have served a suspended sentence, hypothetically
    That’s your theory. The United States Sentencing Commission says this:
    “Simple drug possession is a misdemeanor under federal law which provides that an offender may be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not more than one year, fined a minimum of $1,000, or both. However, if an offender is convicted of simple possession after a prior drug related offense has become final, the offender can be charged with a felony simple possession offense.”
    So you’re relying on the fact that you’re a white guy to say that your sentence will be suspended? I say, Lock you up.

  778. If I had ever done anything like that, and gotten caught, I could have served a suspended sentence, hypothetically
    That’s your theory. The United States Sentencing Commission says this:
    “Simple drug possession is a misdemeanor under federal law which provides that an offender may be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not more than one year, fined a minimum of $1,000, or both. However, if an offender is convicted of simple possession after a prior drug related offense has become final, the offender can be charged with a felony simple possession offense.”
    So you’re relying on the fact that you’re a white guy to say that your sentence will be suspended? I say, Lock you up.

  779. We happen to have an historically poor country with porous access to a long border and very lax temp visa enforcement. Both should be fixed.
    If you look just at the numbers, the lax visa regime is FAR more of a problem. At least if the real problem is how many people are here illegally. Yet the attention is all on the “historically poor country” on our border. And all the talk is about stuff like the wall and “border security”.
    Which makes it hard to avoid the suspicion that the number of illegals, just as a number, isn’t the real problem.

  780. We happen to have an historically poor country with porous access to a long border and very lax temp visa enforcement. Both should be fixed.
    If you look just at the numbers, the lax visa regime is FAR more of a problem. At least if the real problem is how many people are here illegally. Yet the attention is all on the “historically poor country” on our border. And all the talk is about stuff like the wall and “border security”.
    Which makes it hard to avoid the suspicion that the number of illegals, just as a number, isn’t the real problem.

  781. At least if the real problem is how many people are here illegally.
    The problem is that there is no real problem with immigrants. The problem is with racism. Yes, and “standing in line”. So make more checkout counters.

  782. At least if the real problem is how many people are here illegally.
    The problem is that there is no real problem with immigrants. The problem is with racism. Yes, and “standing in line”. So make more checkout counters.

  785. Well we have a long border with Canada, same lines, same lax temp visa enforcement, not nearly so many people entering illegally. I suspect that the numbers, both visa and sneaking in, are driven by it being a historically poor country.

  786. Well we have a long border with Canada, same lines, same lax temp visa enforcement, not nearly so many people entering illegally. I suspect that the numbers, both visa and sneaking in, are driven by it being a historically poor country.

  789. All told Canada takes about 300k per year
    which would be, relative to total population, like us admitting about three times as many as we do.
    The law isn’t cruel, the enforcement isnt intentionally cruel
    we differ
    Well we have a long border with Canada, same lines, same lax temp visa enforcement, not nearly so many people entering illegally.
    why the hell would canadians come here?
    I suspect that the numbers, both visa and sneaking in, are driven by it being a historically poor country.
    yes, many people that want to come to the US come here because we are wealthier and offer more opportunity.
    funny, i always thought that was the good part.

  790. All told Canada takes about 300k per year
    which would be, relative to total population, like us admitting about three times as many as we do.
    The law isn’t cruel, the enforcement isnt intentionally cruel
    we differ
    Well we have a long border with Canada, same lines, same lax temp visa enforcement, not nearly so many people entering illegally.
    why the hell would canadians come here?
    I suspect that the numbers, both visa and sneaking in, are driven by it being a historically poor country.
    yes, many people that want to come to the US come here because we are wealthier and offer more opportunity.
    funny, i always thought that was the good part.

  791. I suspect that the numbers, both visa and sneaking in, are driven by it being a historically poor country.
    Historically, that has been the case. In fact, it was so desirable that we brought many immigrants to this country in chains from shithole places.
    And in the long run, here we are, a rich place struggling fiercely to deny our heritage.

  792. I suspect that the numbers, both visa and sneaking in, are driven by it being a historically poor country.
    Historically, that has been the case. In fact, it was so desirable that we brought many immigrants to this country in chains from shithole places.
    And in the long run, here we are, a rich place struggling fiercely to deny our heritage.

  793. Gaius Publius (David Dayen) at Naked Capitalism
    Democrats, and I don’t mean only the corrupt leadership, but the Loyalist rank and file, have apparently no clue as to how much they screwed up and continue to alienate kids
    Caitlin Johnstone:”I Promise To Sabotage The 2020 Campaign Of Any Establishment Democrat
    If the Democratic party tries to run a pro-establishment presidential candidate in 2020, I, Caitlin Johnstone, promise unequivocally and unconditionally that I will do every single thing in my power to sabotage their candidacy and make them lose the election. … I don’t care if it’s a transgender Muslim eskimo with a Senate seat and their own talk show — I will do my very best to ruin them, and I will do my very best to recruit others like me to help….
    [I]f the Democratic party doesn’t run a very solid anti-war, pro-environment, pro-economic justice candidate in the next presidential election, there is at least one very loud voice out here who will relentlessly dedicate all available resources to making sure that it hurts. I will find every scrap of dirt I can find to help ruin your campaign. I will throw my support behind a third party candidate. I will shamelessly collaborate with conservatives. Everything legal and truthful that I can do to bring you down, I will do. You cannot manipulate me onto any other path. I will not compromise, and I will not stop. You have my most solemn word on that.”

  794. Gaius Publius (David Dayen) at Naked Capitalism
    Democrats, and I don’t mean only the corrupt leadership, but the Loyalist rank and file, have apparently no clue as to how much they screwed up and continue to alienate kids
    Caitlin Johnstone:”I Promise To Sabotage The 2020 Campaign Of Any Establishment Democrat
    If the Democratic party tries to run a pro-establishment presidential candidate in 2020, I, Caitlin Johnstone, promise unequivocally and unconditionally that I will do every single thing in my power to sabotage their candidacy and make them lose the election. … I don’t care if it’s a transgender Muslim eskimo with a Senate seat and their own talk show — I will do my very best to ruin them, and I will do my very best to recruit others like me to help….
    [I]f the Democratic party doesn’t run a very solid anti-war, pro-environment, pro-economic justice candidate in the next presidential election, there is at least one very loud voice out here who will relentlessly dedicate all available resources to making sure that it hurts. I will find every scrap of dirt I can find to help ruin your campaign. I will throw my support behind a third party candidate. I will shamelessly collaborate with conservatives. Everything legal and truthful that I can do to bring you down, I will do. You cannot manipulate me onto any other path. I will not compromise, and I will not stop. You have my most solemn word on that.”

  795. But, people who come or stay here illegally are breaking the law every minute of every day.
    there’s a little container of something illegal hanging out in a particular cabinet in my house that puts me in that category, too. there it sits, a little felony.
    know what i mean? wink wink.
    plus, i (like everyone else) drive 10-15 miles over the limit on all the roads in the area.
    pick & choose all day long.

  796. But, people who come or stay here illegally are breaking the law every minute of every day.
    there’s a little container of something illegal hanging out in a particular cabinet in my house that puts me in that category, too. there it sits, a little felony.
    know what i mean? wink wink.
    plus, i (like everyone else) drive 10-15 miles over the limit on all the roads in the area.
    pick & choose all day long.

  797. When you can’t explain how the problem manifests itself in its impact on people’s lives, you fall back on “it’s illegal.”

  798. When you can’t explain how the problem manifests itself in its impact on people’s lives, you fall back on “it’s illegal.”

  799. Caitlin Johnstone:”I Promise To Sabotage The 2020 Campaign Of Any Establishment Democrat
    grow the fuck up, Caitlin Johnstone.

  800. Caitlin Johnstone:”I Promise To Sabotage The 2020 Campaign Of Any Establishment Democrat
    grow the fuck up, Caitlin Johnstone.

  803. I don’t have to pick and choose
    but you do. you roll the dice and take your chances.
    it amazes me how “conservatives” work so damned hard to alienate what could be a very loyal constituency with their hideous and misguided anti-human-reality rhetoric.

  804. I don’t have to pick and choose
    but you do. you roll the dice and take your chances.
    it amazes me how “conservatives” work so damned hard to alienate what could be a very loyal constituency with their hideous and misguided anti-human-reality rhetoric.

  805. “anti-human-reality rhetoric.”
    https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/01/23/rush-limbaugh-deep-state-may-have-faked-saddam-wmd-evidence-damage-george-w-bush/219148
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/you-need-to-watch-this
    CIA and the FBI, the instruments of conservative American authoritarianism since World War II, are hippies, faggots, niggers, wetbacks, kikes, towelheads and liberals now.
    America is so far around the bend that nuclear incineration at the hands of North Korea would only be the beginning of what needs to happen to rid the world of this verminous republican bacterial plague.
    We’ll still have to piss on their ashes to sterilize the landscape.
    There has never been anything like this infestation in American history.
    Fuck elections.

  806. “anti-human-reality rhetoric.”
    https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/01/23/rush-limbaugh-deep-state-may-have-faked-saddam-wmd-evidence-damage-george-w-bush/219148
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/you-need-to-watch-this
    CIA and the FBI, the instruments of conservative American authoritarianism since World War II, are hippies, faggots, niggers, wetbacks, kikes, towelheads and liberals now.
    America is so far around the bend that nuclear incineration at the hands of North Korea would only be the beginning of what needs to happen to rid the world of this verminous republican bacterial plague.
    We’ll still have to piss on their ashes to sterilize the landscape.
    There has never been anything like this infestation in American history.
    Fuck elections.

  811. See how it works. Republican conservative bugs give us the freedom to kill and main everywhere but where THEY reside.
    http://juanitajean.com/heads-up-texas-state-capitol-visitors/
    Politicians in Texas must be getting very worried about what is about to happen to them as their stinking corrupt world comes apart at the seams.
    Yet:
    https://www.texastribune.org/2017/01/03/lawmaker-hopes-passing-constitutional-carry-bill-2/
    Yet:
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-gop-gun-bill-concealed-carry-20171206-story.html
    Yet, pigs in the Texas Statehouse I expect will still be permitted to carry in the hallways and their offices.
    That doesn’t seem like a fair fight: enraged but completely unarmed citizens petitioning their permanently enraged fully armed vermin republican overlords.
    Why are Putin’s Russia and the Republican paramilitary slime, the NRA, cooperating in this ruination of America?

  812. See how it works. Republican conservative bugs give us the freedom to kill and main everywhere but where THEY reside.
    http://juanitajean.com/heads-up-texas-state-capitol-visitors/
    Politicians in Texas must be getting very worried about what is about to happen to them as their stinking corrupt world comes apart at the seams.
    Yet:
    https://www.texastribune.org/2017/01/03/lawmaker-hopes-passing-constitutional-carry-bill-2/
    Yet:
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-gop-gun-bill-concealed-carry-20171206-story.html
    Yet, pigs in the Texas Statehouse I expect will still be permitted to carry in the hallways and their offices.
    That doesn’t seem like a fair fight: enraged but completely unarmed citizens petitioning their permanently enraged fully armed vermin republican overlords.
    Why are Putin’s Russia and the Republican paramilitary slime, the NRA, cooperating in this ruination of America?

  815. If the Democratic party tries to run a pro-establishment presidential candidate in 2020, I, Caitlin Johnstone, promise unequivocally and unconditionally that I will do every single thing in my power to sabotage their candidacy and make them lose the election.
    Because an encore of Trump would be just so much better. As HSH so succinctly put it: “grow the fuck up.” Children get to posture; adults are expected to do better.

  816. If the Democratic party tries to run a pro-establishment presidential candidate in 2020, I, Caitlin Johnstone, promise unequivocally and unconditionally that I will do every single thing in my power to sabotage their candidacy and make them lose the election.
    Because an encore of Trump would be just so much better. As HSH so succinctly put it: “grow the fuck up.” Children get to posture; adults are expected to do better.

  817. That was cleek. But I agree. I mean, I get that she would like what she believes to be better candidates for office, but there may be better ways to get there. Of course, she’s free to what she’s proposing, even if it’s stupid.

  818. That was cleek. But I agree. I mean, I get that she would like what she believes to be better candidates for office, but there may be better ways to get there. Of course, she’s free to what she’s proposing, even if it’s stupid.

  823. I just had to look up Caitlin Johnstone. If I got the right one, she sounds like a complete crazy, a kind of lefty version of Alex Jones. Jesus wept…..

  824. I just had to look up Caitlin Johnstone. If I got the right one, she sounds like a complete crazy, a kind of lefty version of Alex Jones. Jesus wept…..

  827. it amazes me how “conservatives” work so damned hard to alienate what could be a very loyal constituency
    please proceed, republicans.

  828. it amazes me how “conservatives” work so damned hard to alienate what could be a very loyal constituency
    please proceed, republicans.

  829. “If I got the right one, she sounds like a complete crazy, a kind of lefty version of Alex Jones.”
    Of course she does. She’s Australian and therefore must spin counterclockwise.

  830. “If I got the right one, she sounds like a complete crazy, a kind of lefty version of Alex Jones.”
    Of course she does. She’s Australian and therefore must spin counterclockwise.

  831. Grow the fuck up, Johnstone! (And Garcia on a later post)
    Conform. Obey. Do as You Are Told. Fight for us. Stuff your idealism. Our bank accounts depend on your loyalty. Buy our books. Never stop clapping. We’re winning. Really we are. Get with the crowd. It’s for your own good. We really care for you.
    There is no alternative.

  832. Grow the fuck up, Johnstone! (And Garcia on a later post)
    Conform. Obey. Do as You Are Told. Fight for us. Stuff your idealism. Our bank accounts depend on your loyalty. Buy our books. Never stop clapping. We’re winning. Really we are. Get with the crowd. It’s for your own good. We really care for you.
    There is no alternative.

  835. Grow the fuck up, Johnstone! (And Garcia on a later post)
    Conform. Obey. Do as You Are Told. Fight for us. Stuff your idealism.
    Not at all. Just try getting a grip on reality, and on the real world consequences of the actions you advocate. It’s entirely possible to do that without conforming, without being blindly obedient, without abandoning ideals.

  836. Grow the fuck up, Johnstone! (And Garcia on a later post)
    Conform. Obey. Do as You Are Told. Fight for us. Stuff your idealism.
    Not at all. Just try getting a grip on reality, and on the real world consequences of the actions you advocate. It’s entirely possible to do that without conforming, without being blindly obedient, without abandoning ideals.

  839. Hartman vs King in Penn Cong District 16
    “It turned out the Democratic Party had other ideas — or, at least, it had an old idea. As is happening in races across the country, party leaders in Washington and in the Pennsylvania district rallied, instead, around a candidate who, in 2016, had raised more money than a Democrat ever had in the district and suffered a humiliating loss anyway.”
    Raising money means spending money on… establishment Democrats (media, consultants, organizers). They don’t care if they win.

  840. Hartman vs King in Penn Cong District 16
    “It turned out the Democratic Party had other ideas — or, at least, it had an old idea. As is happening in races across the country, party leaders in Washington and in the Pennsylvania district rallied, instead, around a candidate who, in 2016, had raised more money than a Democrat ever had in the district and suffered a humiliating loss anyway.”
    Raising money means spending money on… establishment Democrats (media, consultants, organizers). They don’t care if they win.

  841. Who Owns the Womans March
    “A number of marches across the United States have received letters from Women’s March Inc., protesting their use of the term “women’s march.” As the New York Times reported earlier this week, Amber Selman-Lynn, a Mobile, Alabama-based organizer, received a letter from Women’s March, Inc. requesting the name be removed from materials promoting the march.”
    “In the meantime, Women’s March Inc. is continuing to prepare for its anniversary event in Las Vegas, Nevada on Sunday.”
    I can’t find the article/study that shows almost all left-of-centre-but-not-left grassroots activism is controlled by the Democratic Party. Basically, the above gives a hint of how it is done. There are a whole lot of lawyers been graduating, many of them women, few of who can find good private jobs.
    All politics and activism is getting swallowed up by this big bright green money-making machine. Idealism and energy gets monetized.
    This has to be destroyed.

  842. Who Owns the Womans March
    “A number of marches across the United States have received letters from Women’s March Inc., protesting their use of the term “women’s march.” As the New York Times reported earlier this week, Amber Selman-Lynn, a Mobile, Alabama-based organizer, received a letter from Women’s March, Inc. requesting the name be removed from materials promoting the march.”
    “In the meantime, Women’s March Inc. is continuing to prepare for its anniversary event in Las Vegas, Nevada on Sunday.”
    I can’t find the article/study that shows almost all left-of-centre-but-not-left grassroots activism is controlled by the Democratic Party. Basically, the above gives a hint of how it is done. There are a whole lot of lawyers been graduating, many of them women, few of who can find good private jobs.
    All politics and activism is getting swallowed up by this big bright green money-making machine. Idealism and energy gets monetized.
    This has to be destroyed.

  843. I can’t find the article/study that shows almost all left-of-centre-but-not-left grassroots activism is controlled by the Democratic Party.
    well, i’d certainly love to see that. it would maybe help sell your conspiracy theory.

  844. I can’t find the article/study that shows almost all left-of-centre-but-not-left grassroots activism is controlled by the Democratic Party.
    well, i’d certainly love to see that. it would maybe help sell your conspiracy theory.

  847. Oh, finally (most of my links I get from Naked Capitalism, you really don’t need the Times and WaPo. I also use Guardian and BBC)
    What is Neoliberalism …Jacobin
    “When identifying the root cause of this growing appetite for excellence, Curran and Hill don’t mince words: it’s neoliberalism. Neoliberal ideology reveres competition, discourages cooperation, promotes ambition, and tethers personal worth to professional achievement. Unsurprisingly, societies governed by these values make people very judgmental, and very anxious about being judged.
    It describes the feeling of paranoia and anxiety engendered by the persistent — and not entirely unfounded — sensation that everyone is waiting for you to make a mistake so they can write you off forever. This hyper-perception of others’ impossible expectations causes social alienation, neurotic self-examination, feelings of shame and unworthiness, and “a sense of self overwhelmed by pathological worry and a fear of negative social evaluation, characterized by a focus on deficiencies, and sensitive to criticism and failure.”
    Wolfgang Streeck, Socialism vs Liberalism Much longer, pdf
    In the new left-universalist cosmopolitan frame of mind, borders became anathema,as did localized solidarity discounting national-state government in favor of liberal-voluntaristic governance by experts, epistemic communities, well-meaning NGOs, and problem-solving, knowledge-processing international conferences.”
    it would maybe help sell your conspiracy theory.
    Not a conspiracy theory, more sociology

  848. Oh, finally (most of my links I get from Naked Capitalism, you really don’t need the Times and WaPo. I also use Guardian and BBC)
    What is Neoliberalism …Jacobin
    “When identifying the root cause of this growing appetite for excellence, Curran and Hill don’t mince words: it’s neoliberalism. Neoliberal ideology reveres competition, discourages cooperation, promotes ambition, and tethers personal worth to professional achievement. Unsurprisingly, societies governed by these values make people very judgmental, and very anxious about being judged.
    It describes the feeling of paranoia and anxiety engendered by the persistent — and not entirely unfounded — sensation that everyone is waiting for you to make a mistake so they can write you off forever. This hyper-perception of others’ impossible expectations causes social alienation, neurotic self-examination, feelings of shame and unworthiness, and “a sense of self overwhelmed by pathological worry and a fear of negative social evaluation, characterized by a focus on deficiencies, and sensitive to criticism and failure.”
    Wolfgang Streeck, Socialism vs Liberalism Much longer, pdf
    In the new left-universalist cosmopolitan frame of mind, borders became anathema,as did localized solidarity discounting national-state government in favor of liberal-voluntaristic governance by experts, epistemic communities, well-meaning NGOs, and problem-solving, knowledge-processing international conferences.”
    it would maybe help sell your conspiracy theory.
    Not a conspiracy theory, more sociology

  849. There is a bit of a war on the far left regarding Caitlin Johnson (spelling?). Bob may not be aware of this. Nina Illingworth who is very far left despises her for a couple of reasons— first, Caitlin is trying to get the far left to make alliances with the alt right including Cernovich and second, Nina thinks Johnstone or whatever her name is plagiarizes like crazy from, among others, Nina Illingworth. The Counterpunch crowd isn’t crazy about Caitlin either. Nina thinks Caitlin is a closet right winger. Her claim is that Caitlin plagiarizes Nina’s foreign policy stuff because it does appeal to a subset of the far right, but ignores Nina when she writes about rightwing racism. I haven’t read enough of Caitlin to know if this theory holds up, but fairly or unfairly, there are enough far lefties around I don’t have to bother finding out.
    I read Caitlin briefly before becoming aware of this, because some of her stuff I agree with, before I read about the unsavory rightwing links. I read Illingworth now. I don’t completely agree with her, but one has to balance the far left with the crackpot center and the anti – imperialist and non- fascist right at The American Conservative and hope that out of all this something like the truth might emerge.

  850. There is a bit of a war on the far left regarding Caitlin Johnson (spelling?). Bob may not be aware of this. Nina Illingworth who is very far left despises her for a couple of reasons— first, Caitlin is trying to get the far left to make alliances with the alt right including Cernovich and second, Nina thinks Johnstone or whatever her name is plagiarizes like crazy from, among others, Nina Illingworth. The Counterpunch crowd isn’t crazy about Caitlin either. Nina thinks Caitlin is a closet right winger. Her claim is that Caitlin plagiarizes Nina’s foreign policy stuff because it does appeal to a subset of the far right, but ignores Nina when she writes about rightwing racism. I haven’t read enough of Caitlin to know if this theory holds up, but fairly or unfairly, there are enough far lefties around I don’t have to bother finding out.
    I read Caitlin briefly before becoming aware of this, because some of her stuff I agree with, before I read about the unsavory rightwing links. I read Illingworth now. I don’t completely agree with her, but one has to balance the far left with the crackpot center and the anti – imperialist and non- fascist right at The American Conservative and hope that out of all this something like the truth might emerge.

  851. Bob may not be aware of this.
    Wasn’t aware. I read the journalism stuff pretty fast, and generally ignore or forget bylines. I can’t name more than a couple Counterpunch writers. I also don’t follow the infighting or controversies. I’m extracting agreeable nuggets.
    Mark Fisher famously said the first rule of the Vampire Castle (neoliberal twitterverse) was “Personalize Everything.” Who wrote X, what is their gender, their ethnicity, history, politics. Since then I have tried to do the opposite.
    That part of my memory is dedicated to published writers, with books, whom I will follow in their articles. And some ole bloggers.

  852. Bob may not be aware of this.
    Wasn’t aware. I read the journalism stuff pretty fast, and generally ignore or forget bylines. I can’t name more than a couple Counterpunch writers. I also don’t follow the infighting or controversies. I’m extracting agreeable nuggets.
    Mark Fisher famously said the first rule of the Vampire Castle (neoliberal twitterverse) was “Personalize Everything.” Who wrote X, what is their gender, their ethnicity, history, politics. Since then I have tried to do the opposite.
    That part of my memory is dedicated to published writers, with books, whom I will follow in their articles. And some ole bloggers.

  853. Not a conspiracy theory, more sociology
    i’m sure many fine sociologists would be appalled at the idea that sociology is little more than Glenn Beck style insinuation and guilt-by-imagined-association.

  854. Not a conspiracy theory, more sociology
    i’m sure many fine sociologists would be appalled at the idea that sociology is little more than Glenn Beck style insinuation and guilt-by-imagined-association.

  857. I’m extracting agreeable nuggets
    Confirmation bias and bubble maintenance in action, I’d say.

  858. I’m extracting agreeable nuggets
    Confirmation bias and bubble maintenance in action, I’d say.

  859. I find that Jacobin excerpt on neoliberalism to be reasonably accurate, at least as the social phenomenon goes, even if it isn’t actually neoliberalism that’s to blame for it.

  860. I find that Jacobin excerpt on neoliberalism to be reasonably accurate, at least as the social phenomenon goes, even if it isn’t actually neoliberalism that’s to blame for it.

  861. “I also don’t follow the infighting or controversies. I’m extracting agreeable nuggets.”
    That’s not a terrible idea, imo. Sometimes the arguments and infighting are remarkably petty. And there are people like the LGM crowd who can be worth reading on some issues, except when they are on one of their petty jihads.
    But the drawback is when you quote someone like Caitlin people look her up, see the unsavory stuff and dismiss everything. Like I said, I read Caitlin for a bit and agreed with some of her posts ( which Illingworth rightly or wrongly thinks are plagiarized), but wouldn’t cite her on anything.

  862. “I also don’t follow the infighting or controversies. I’m extracting agreeable nuggets.”
    That’s not a terrible idea, imo. Sometimes the arguments and infighting are remarkably petty. And there are people like the LGM crowd who can be worth reading on some issues, except when they are on one of their petty jihads.
    But the drawback is when you quote someone like Caitlin people look her up, see the unsavory stuff and dismiss everything. Like I said, I read Caitlin for a bit and agreed with some of her posts ( which Illingworth rightly or wrongly thinks are plagiarized), but wouldn’t cite her on anything.

  863. who can be worth reading on some issues, except when they are on one of their petty jihads.
    Because you are so remarkably worthwhile at all times. Because you are the purist among us. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you very much.

  864. who can be worth reading on some issues, except when they are on one of their petty jihads.
    Because you are so remarkably worthwhile at all times. Because you are the purist among us. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you very much.

  865. That’s not a terrible idea, imo. I don’t know, with the amount of astroturfing and people putting up disingenuous argumentation, that seems to be asking for trouble, especially when one isn’t bothered to find out what other things the person said. If you say ‘so and so said this, though s/he has also [qualifying factors]’ For the example of Caitlin, I know don’t know if bob mcmanus knows about her problems or if he even cares.
    That’s why I will really only discuss with people here, I’m not going to start tweeting or dropping into other blogs to put forth my point of view. I realize that this deprives all those other people of my pearls of wisdom, but I think they will manage. There is a real difference between someone who is simply misguided and doesn’t reflect on what are or would be the actual consequences of their arguments and someone who says something for the joy of being contrarian. You mentioned earlier that it is easy to get a big head (mentioning Greenwald, Chomsky and Hersh) and the problem is that people are often unable to admit they were mistaken. Maybe I’m old-fashioned, but someone who says ‘gee, I need to rethink this a bit’ gets a lot more credit from me than someone who is sure they are right all the time.

  866. That’s not a terrible idea, imo. I don’t know, with the amount of astroturfing and people putting up disingenuous argumentation, that seems to be asking for trouble, especially when one isn’t bothered to find out what other things the person said. If you say ‘so and so said this, though s/he has also [qualifying factors]’ For the example of Caitlin, I know don’t know if bob mcmanus knows about her problems or if he even cares.
    That’s why I will really only discuss with people here, I’m not going to start tweeting or dropping into other blogs to put forth my point of view. I realize that this deprives all those other people of my pearls of wisdom, but I think they will manage. There is a real difference between someone who is simply misguided and doesn’t reflect on what are or would be the actual consequences of their arguments and someone who says something for the joy of being contrarian. You mentioned earlier that it is easy to get a big head (mentioning Greenwald, Chomsky and Hersh) and the problem is that people are often unable to admit they were mistaken. Maybe I’m old-fashioned, but someone who says ‘gee, I need to rethink this a bit’ gets a lot more credit from me than someone who is sure they are right all the time.

  867. “Petty Jihads”
    Great band name.
    Just to be clear. I’m hardly ever right, and so far, so good, but I try to fit in with fellow Americans by being emphatically wrong.

  868. “Petty Jihads”
    Great band name.
    Just to be clear. I’m hardly ever right, and so far, so good, but I try to fit in with fellow Americans by being emphatically wrong.

  871. Word association: “I am changing my name to Chrysler….”
    Other word association: seen on the front of a t-shirt in P-town many years ago:
    “Jesus is coming.”
    On the back:
    “Look busy.”

  872. Word association: “I am changing my name to Chrysler….”
    Other word association: seen on the front of a t-shirt in P-town many years ago:
    “Jesus is coming.”
    On the back:
    “Look busy.”

  873. “Because you are so…”
    I thought of responding by admitting that of course many of us including me like to bash the horrible people who disagree with us, but I was talking to bob about LGM, where we probably agree and you decided to go personal again. If I spend any time here at all, I am inevitably going to say something you disagree with and long experience shows you will launch a personal attack. And you do it with others. One hardly has to be anything remotely close to a saint to behave better than you do. I do wonder if I should have stuck to my earlier decision just to lurk. I think my main contribution here is posting the occasional interesting link. But if I leave, it will be my decision unless I get booted and not because you are the way you are.
    LJ— I don’t see people fundamentally changing their views much. It happens, but it is rare. I picked out those three because they like to argue from the outside, so to speak, but a great many others like to argue from the inside ( particularly against the outsiders) and don’t have to admit error except from the safety of a crowd, so if they were wrong, it doesn’t mean anything since all the serious people were wrong with them. People on the fringes, I think, are reluctant to admit error because it will be used as proof they were never worth listening to. That is my impression of the psychology at work with both Greenwald types and Greenwald haters. It’s a bad dynamic but I am not going to stop reading the dissenting types because it it, any more than I will stop reading the NYT even if I don’t trust them.
    Just reread Notes on Nationalism. That essay never grows old.

  874. “Because you are so…”
    I thought of responding by admitting that of course many of us including me like to bash the horrible people who disagree with us, but I was talking to bob about LGM, where we probably agree and you decided to go personal again. If I spend any time here at all, I am inevitably going to say something you disagree with and long experience shows you will launch a personal attack. And you do it with others. One hardly has to be anything remotely close to a saint to behave better than you do. I do wonder if I should have stuck to my earlier decision just to lurk. I think my main contribution here is posting the occasional interesting link. But if I leave, it will be my decision unless I get booted and not because you are the way you are.
    LJ— I don’t see people fundamentally changing their views much. It happens, but it is rare. I picked out those three because they like to argue from the outside, so to speak, but a great many others like to argue from the inside ( particularly against the outsiders) and don’t have to admit error except from the safety of a crowd, so if they were wrong, it doesn’t mean anything since all the serious people were wrong with them. People on the fringes, I think, are reluctant to admit error because it will be used as proof they were never worth listening to. That is my impression of the psychology at work with both Greenwald types and Greenwald haters. It’s a bad dynamic but I am not going to stop reading the dissenting types because it it, any more than I will stop reading the NYT even if I don’t trust them.
    Just reread Notes on Nationalism. That essay never grows old.

  881. To modify Marx’s well known dictum, “history repeats itself, the first as tragedy, then as farce, and then as pure unadulterated blockheadedness.”
    Marx vs. Bakunin
    Trotsky vs. Stalin
    Caitlin Johnstone vs. anything approaching common sense

  882. To modify Marx’s well known dictum, “history repeats itself, the first as tragedy, then as farce, and then as pure unadulterated blockheadedness.”
    Marx vs. Bakunin
    Trotsky vs. Stalin
    Caitlin Johnstone vs. anything approaching common sense

  885. Marty – glad you liked it.
    I still can’t believe Pete is really gone. When I first came upon that video, the account had Arlo’s wife’s name (or initials) as the owner, and she was the one (I’ve always assumed) who wrote the blurb. She died in Oct. 2012, Pete in Jan. 2014 — a hard couple of years for Arlo, no doubt.

  886. Marty – glad you liked it.
    I still can’t believe Pete is really gone. When I first came upon that video, the account had Arlo’s wife’s name (or initials) as the owner, and she was the one (I’ve always assumed) who wrote the blurb. She died in Oct. 2012, Pete in Jan. 2014 — a hard couple of years for Arlo, no doubt.

  887. Yes Janie, that was lovely. I went to see Pete sing in Central Park once in the late 70s (memorable because someone near me asked me to put out my cigarette – in a park! I was astonished in those unenlightened days) and I remember tears coming to my eyes as we all sang This Land is Your Land. As for Arlo, apart from his connection to his father, and Alice’s Restaurant, I love him for his version of The City of New Orleans. You’ve made me think, I don’t know much about his other stuff, I must search it out.

  888. Yes Janie, that was lovely. I went to see Pete sing in Central Park once in the late 70s (memorable because someone near me asked me to put out my cigarette – in a park! I was astonished in those unenlightened days) and I remember tears coming to my eyes as we all sang This Land is Your Land. As for Arlo, apart from his connection to his father, and Alice’s Restaurant, I love him for his version of The City of New Orleans. You’ve made me think, I don’t know much about his other stuff, I must search it out.

  895. For GftNC and old times’ sake — the original Alice.
    I agree about City of New Orleans, and there are other Arlo songs I do like for their own sake. But I especially enjoy Arlo and Pete together. I saw Arlo in the fall of 1969, outdoor concert, he wouldn’t sing Alice, he was sick of it. Then I saw him with Pete a couple of times many years later, once indoors and once in a big outdoor arena next to Lake Michigan in Milwaukee.
    The real Alice wrote a cookbook, capitalizing on the song or, more probably, the movie. My copy is buried in the frozen attic, i.e. unreachable at the moment, so I must heavily paraphrase the chapter on “Foreign Cookery,” the entirety of which went something like this:
    “Soy sauce makes it Chinese, tomato makes it Italian, tarragon makes it French, and garlic makes it good.”

  896. For GftNC and old times’ sake — the original Alice.
    I agree about City of New Orleans, and there are other Arlo songs I do like for their own sake. But I especially enjoy Arlo and Pete together. I saw Arlo in the fall of 1969, outdoor concert, he wouldn’t sing Alice, he was sick of it. Then I saw him with Pete a couple of times many years later, once indoors and once in a big outdoor arena next to Lake Michigan in Milwaukee.
    The real Alice wrote a cookbook, capitalizing on the song or, more probably, the movie. My copy is buried in the frozen attic, i.e. unreachable at the moment, so I must heavily paraphrase the chapter on “Foreign Cookery,” the entirety of which went something like this:
    “Soy sauce makes it Chinese, tomato makes it Italian, tarragon makes it French, and garlic makes it good.”

  899. Thanks to the people who want me to stay. I probably will because it is an addiction. And I don’t want sapient to leave either. We don’t play well together, but I pretty much try not to respond to sapient when I see a post I don’t agree with, as it doesn’t end well. This seems like advice that should go both ways, except when we are in actual agreement. But I will keep reading sapient’s posts.

  900. Thanks to the people who want me to stay. I probably will because it is an addiction. And I don’t want sapient to leave either. We don’t play well together, but I pretty much try not to respond to sapient when I see a post I don’t agree with, as it doesn’t end well. This seems like advice that should go both ways, except when we are in actual agreement. But I will keep reading sapient’s posts.

  901. wj — that made me chuckle. I went to lunch once with one of my offspring and my offspring’s (at the time) significant other, a young person of great ability, high accomplishment, and, based on family history, some amount of cultural sophistication. This was one of the things said during the conversation:
    “Who’s Arlo Guthrie?”
    A similar comment was made about some sports figure (I can’t remember who it was), even though the speaker had been a varsity college athlete perself (to use Marge Piercy’s pronoun).
    We all live in our little bubbles, and I suspect that this encounter had as much to do with this young person’s parents and I inhabiting different bubbles as it did with some generational difference. My kids certainly knew who Pete and Arlo were from a very young age, even though that was because of my enthusiasms and not their own.
    This lunch took place in a town that has a store called “The Group W Bench.”
    Heh.

  902. wj — that made me chuckle. I went to lunch once with one of my offspring and my offspring’s (at the time) significant other, a young person of great ability, high accomplishment, and, based on family history, some amount of cultural sophistication. This was one of the things said during the conversation:
    “Who’s Arlo Guthrie?”
    A similar comment was made about some sports figure (I can’t remember who it was), even though the speaker had been a varsity college athlete perself (to use Marge Piercy’s pronoun).
    We all live in our little bubbles, and I suspect that this encounter had as much to do with this young person’s parents and I inhabiting different bubbles as it did with some generational difference. My kids certainly knew who Pete and Arlo were from a very young age, even though that was because of my enthusiasms and not their own.
    This lunch took place in a town that has a store called “The Group W Bench.”
    Heh.

  903. We all live in our little bubbles, …
    I remember being startled in the mid-’70s when I encountered adults who had no idea who Patty Hearst was.

  904. We all live in our little bubbles, …
    I remember being startled in the mid-’70s when I encountered adults who had no idea who Patty Hearst was.

  911. a thoughtful and well-balanced wiki page.
    and it helpfully includes a link to “tone troll” at the bottom! as if the page itself wasn’t a good enough example.

  912. a thoughtful and well-balanced wiki page.
    and it helpfully includes a link to “tone troll” at the bottom! as if the page itself wasn’t a good enough example.

  913. Not surprisingly, I agreed with the basic intent of the wiki page, but the writer seemed to want to throw every single thing that has ever annoyed him about the center left to center right into a description of one Platonic ideal of, say, the average pundit. But physical law prevents such a high concentration of annoying behavior into one person. He or she would collapse into a black hole and the punditry would be lost inside the event horizon.

  914. Not surprisingly, I agreed with the basic intent of the wiki page, but the writer seemed to want to throw every single thing that has ever annoyed him about the center left to center right into a description of one Platonic ideal of, say, the average pundit. But physical law prevents such a high concentration of annoying behavior into one person. He or she would collapse into a black hole and the punditry would be lost inside the event horizon.

  915. my favorite part was the claim that very serious people are interested in small towns in new england.
    every four years they go to manchester NH to listen to pols blather, then up to dixville notch to watch some colorful old coot cast his vote.
    not too many david brooks sightings in berlin, or tuners falls, or atkinson mills.
    most folks would prefer that new england fall off the continent and sink into the ocean.
    had a chat with a facebook acquaintance. he lives in cincinatti, doesn’t like how all the coastal elites refer to his hometown as flyover country. i tried to hip him to the idea that referring to people who live near the coasts as “elites” was kind of the same thing.
    he wasn’t having it. didn’t i know that all the power and money was on the coasts?
    i guess i missed that part.
    here is my little joke: i don’t mind being a coastal elite, but i wish the money was a little better.
    hahaha!
    mostly i wish i could buy a house for what my friend in cincinatti paid for his.
    the thing i have the least patience with in today’s political climate is all the people feeling sorry for themselves because they think somebody else is looking down their noses at them. everybody’s a victim.
    if you’re living where you want to live, leading the life you want to live, why do care what some guy in NY or LA thinks? do you want to lead his life instead? maybe thank your lucky stars you’e doing your own thing and just get on with it.
    mostly i think people should turn off their damn TVs and get offa facebook. turn the talk radio off and switch to a nice music station.
    read a book, travel somewhere, talk to some people you haven’t met before. open your mind. or just go fishing and listen to the water flow for a while.
    turn down the crazy.

  916. my favorite part was the claim that very serious people are interested in small towns in new england.
    every four years they go to manchester NH to listen to pols blather, then up to dixville notch to watch some colorful old coot cast his vote.
    not too many david brooks sightings in berlin, or tuners falls, or atkinson mills.
    most folks would prefer that new england fall off the continent and sink into the ocean.
    had a chat with a facebook acquaintance. he lives in cincinatti, doesn’t like how all the coastal elites refer to his hometown as flyover country. i tried to hip him to the idea that referring to people who live near the coasts as “elites” was kind of the same thing.
    he wasn’t having it. didn’t i know that all the power and money was on the coasts?
    i guess i missed that part.
    here is my little joke: i don’t mind being a coastal elite, but i wish the money was a little better.
    hahaha!
    mostly i wish i could buy a house for what my friend in cincinatti paid for his.
    the thing i have the least patience with in today’s political climate is all the people feeling sorry for themselves because they think somebody else is looking down their noses at them. everybody’s a victim.
    if you’re living where you want to live, leading the life you want to live, why do care what some guy in NY or LA thinks? do you want to lead his life instead? maybe thank your lucky stars you’e doing your own thing and just get on with it.
    mostly i think people should turn off their damn TVs and get offa facebook. turn the talk radio off and switch to a nice music station.
    read a book, travel somewhere, talk to some people you haven’t met before. open your mind. or just go fishing and listen to the water flow for a while.
    turn down the crazy.

  919. he wasn’t having it. didn’t i know that all the power and money was on the coasts?
    you want concentrated power, go find the Senators from WY, who have 66 times the voting per (per person) than Senators from CA.

  920. he wasn’t having it. didn’t i know that all the power and money was on the coasts?
    you want concentrated power, go find the Senators from WY, who have 66 times the voting per (per person) than Senators from CA.

  921. finance is centered in wall street. media is NYC and LA. so, he’s got a point there.
    tech, at the very high end, is san fran and to a lesser extent boston, but also denver and durham. tech at the not very high end is all over the country. so, a point-ish.
    health care is all over the country.
    real estate is all over the country. construction is all over the country. agriculture is everywhere *except* the coasts.
    consumer goods and retail is mostly headquartered in the midwest. proctor and gamble, frex, is headquartered in my friend’s very own cincinnati.
    the ten largest employers in the US, as of 2013 anyway.
    three have headquarters in the dreaded coastal areas. the rest are in flyover land, including at least one right there in Cinci.
    if you watch TV and think some talking head is “the coast” you are mistaken. if what the talking head says annoys you, change the channel. if what the pundit writes in the Very Serious Newspaper bugs you, read something else.
    read a book, maybe.
    people believe what they believe. good luck changing their minds.

  922. finance is centered in wall street. media is NYC and LA. so, he’s got a point there.
    tech, at the very high end, is san fran and to a lesser extent boston, but also denver and durham. tech at the not very high end is all over the country. so, a point-ish.
    health care is all over the country.
    real estate is all over the country. construction is all over the country. agriculture is everywhere *except* the coasts.
    consumer goods and retail is mostly headquartered in the midwest. proctor and gamble, frex, is headquartered in my friend’s very own cincinnati.
    the ten largest employers in the US, as of 2013 anyway.
    three have headquarters in the dreaded coastal areas. the rest are in flyover land, including at least one right there in Cinci.
    if you watch TV and think some talking head is “the coast” you are mistaken. if what the talking head says annoys you, change the channel. if what the pundit writes in the Very Serious Newspaper bugs you, read something else.
    read a book, maybe.
    people believe what they believe. good luck changing their minds.

  927. …or north of SF.
    Portland and Seattle aren’t eeeevil (and, by extension, the states they’re in)?

  928. …or north of SF.
    Portland and Seattle aren’t eeeevil (and, by extension, the states they’re in)?

  931. Until today, I’d never heard of my home state’s largest employer, at least as far as I can recall.
    Sad!

  932. Until today, I’d never heard of my home state’s largest employer, at least as far as I can recall.
    Sad!

  933. russell: “if you’re living where you want to live, leading the life you want to live, why do care what some guy in NY or LA thinks? do you want to lead his life instead? maybe thank your lucky stars you’e doing your own thing and just get on with it.”
    Co-sign.
    I used to get gentle ribbing from my SF bay area and NYC friends because I live in Orlando. That stopped when they finally sussed out that I work half as many hours and have an income/cost of living ratio that’s much healthier (including a place on the gulf coast).
    In the end, I get the same mass media/entertainment that they do and have access to a convenient international airport. I probably see more Broadway shows and visit more museums than my NYC friends and spend more time in wine country than my SF Bay friends.
    I get that part of living in a coastal elite warren is the day to day exposure to all the other hip interesting folks that you carefully avoid eye contact with as you go about your day, but, lord help me, I’ve developed a soft spot for Florida-Man.

  934. russell: “if you’re living where you want to live, leading the life you want to live, why do care what some guy in NY or LA thinks? do you want to lead his life instead? maybe thank your lucky stars you’e doing your own thing and just get on with it.”
    Co-sign.
    I used to get gentle ribbing from my SF bay area and NYC friends because I live in Orlando. That stopped when they finally sussed out that I work half as many hours and have an income/cost of living ratio that’s much healthier (including a place on the gulf coast).
    In the end, I get the same mass media/entertainment that they do and have access to a convenient international airport. I probably see more Broadway shows and visit more museums than my NYC friends and spend more time in wine country than my SF Bay friends.
    I get that part of living in a coastal elite warren is the day to day exposure to all the other hip interesting folks that you carefully avoid eye contact with as you go about your day, but, lord help me, I’ve developed a soft spot for Florida-Man.

  935. I work half as many hours and have an income/cost of living ratio that’s much healthier
    My wife and I have good friends who moved from Salem to Clearwater FL. One member of the couple managed a small theater in Salem – which is to say *the* small theater in Salem – and was concerned that he might not find the same level of cultural opportunity in Clearwater.
    There are, like, 10 theater companies in Clearwater.
    They torture us with pictures of them hanging out on the beach in February. They ain’t never coming back.
    It ain’t easy being elite.

  936. I work half as many hours and have an income/cost of living ratio that’s much healthier
    My wife and I have good friends who moved from Salem to Clearwater FL. One member of the couple managed a small theater in Salem – which is to say *the* small theater in Salem – and was concerned that he might not find the same level of cultural opportunity in Clearwater.
    There are, like, 10 theater companies in Clearwater.
    They torture us with pictures of them hanging out on the beach in February. They ain’t never coming back.
    It ain’t easy being elite.

  937. i don’t mind being a coastal elite, but i wish the money was a little better.
    Certainly we all know that the Koch brothers, not to mention Warren Buffett, live on the coasts. They must; after all, they have all that money….

  938. i don’t mind being a coastal elite, but i wish the money was a little better.
    Certainly we all know that the Koch brothers, not to mention Warren Buffett, live on the coasts. They must; after all, they have all that money….

  939. tech, at the very high end, is san fran and to a lesser extent boston
    If course, the reason for that is really, really simple:
    Stanford (and UC Berkeley) and MIT
    In short, you invest in education for your residents.
    And you give them the space to use what they have learned to do something new. (Anybody know if there are figures on how many high tech start-ups’ staff were getting Food Stamps in the first months?)

  940. tech, at the very high end, is san fran and to a lesser extent boston
    If course, the reason for that is really, really simple:
    Stanford (and UC Berkeley) and MIT
    In short, you invest in education for your residents.
    And you give them the space to use what they have learned to do something new. (Anybody know if there are figures on how many high tech start-ups’ staff were getting Food Stamps in the first months?)

  941. “If you live in Illinois, Connecticut or Rhode Island, the chances are you know someone who is not happy. Not happy at all.
    Around a quarter of the population living in these regions have described them each as the ‘worst possible state to live in’, according to a Gallup survey.
    Rhode Island, Connecticut and Illinois are the ‘worst possible states to live in’ (but Louisiana and Mississippi aren’t much better)
    • Republicans’ satisfaction on four key measures has grown in past year
    • Democrats’ satisfaction with moral and ethical climate drops 14 points
    Political Splits Widen on Satisfaction With Life in U.S.

  942. “If you live in Illinois, Connecticut or Rhode Island, the chances are you know someone who is not happy. Not happy at all.
    Around a quarter of the population living in these regions have described them each as the ‘worst possible state to live in’, according to a Gallup survey.
    Rhode Island, Connecticut and Illinois are the ‘worst possible states to live in’ (but Louisiana and Mississippi aren’t much better)
    • Republicans’ satisfaction on four key measures has grown in past year
    • Democrats’ satisfaction with moral and ethical climate drops 14 points
    Political Splits Widen on Satisfaction With Life in U.S.

  943. russell: “There are, like, 10 theater companies in Clearwater.”
    There are a gazillion theater companies in Florida. People retire and decide to scratch an itch. And then there are the choirs and orchestras.
    Orlando has the added ingredient of the theme parks. Imagine being a creative performer type making a living in a super buttoned down environment like Disney. No wonder that we have one of the oldest continuously held fringe festivals in the US … not to mention Gay Days and all the drag queen shows.
    And we are starting to get some pretty good restaurants.
    I’m not saying that we’re a cultural feast … we only have one really good independent movie theater and the live music venues for small alternative acts are few and far between … but the impression that folks get when they visit a chain restaurants in Touristan ain’t the full picture.

  944. russell: “There are, like, 10 theater companies in Clearwater.”
    There are a gazillion theater companies in Florida. People retire and decide to scratch an itch. And then there are the choirs and orchestras.
    Orlando has the added ingredient of the theme parks. Imagine being a creative performer type making a living in a super buttoned down environment like Disney. No wonder that we have one of the oldest continuously held fringe festivals in the US … not to mention Gay Days and all the drag queen shows.
    And we are starting to get some pretty good restaurants.
    I’m not saying that we’re a cultural feast … we only have one really good independent movie theater and the live music venues for small alternative acts are few and far between … but the impression that folks get when they visit a chain restaurants in Touristan ain’t the full picture.

  945. “There are a gazillion theater companies in Florida. People retire and decide to scratch an itch. And then there are the choirs and orchestras.”
    The untold benefits of Social Security and Medicare.

  946. “There are a gazillion theater companies in Florida. People retire and decide to scratch an itch. And then there are the choirs and orchestras.”
    The untold benefits of Social Security and Medicare.

  947. And we are starting to get some pretty good restaurants.
    I would be extremely grateful if you would list a few, Pollo. When I was in Orlando a few years ago it seemed to be all mediocre chains, and even the “posh” hotel restaurant wasn’t much cop. I have friends who live there, and are agitating for me to come back, and I would love to give them some recommendations (not to mention benefit from them myself in due course).

  948. And we are starting to get some pretty good restaurants.
    I would be extremely grateful if you would list a few, Pollo. When I was in Orlando a few years ago it seemed to be all mediocre chains, and even the “posh” hotel restaurant wasn’t much cop. I have friends who live there, and are agitating for me to come back, and I would love to give them some recommendations (not to mention benefit from them myself in due course).

  949. GftNC …
    To be sure, you can get a bad meal in Orlando and we are the hometown for Darden Restaurant Group (I apologize on behalf of O’town for unleashing Olive Garden and Red Lobster in an unsuspecting world), but there are some bright spots …
    Here are five current or recent James Beard Foundation Award semi-finalists:
    Chef Kathleen Blake – The Rusty Spoon
    Chef Scott Hunnel – Victoria & Albert’s at Disney’s Grand Floridian Resort & Spa
    Chef Brandon McGlamery – Luma on Park
    James and Julie Petrakis – The Ravenous Pig
    Chef Hari Pulapaka – Cress
    (Full disclosure: James and Julie Petrakis are clients of my firm)
    If you are vegetarian, Cress is probably your best choice, but in all candor, our best vegetarian restaurants are cheap eats downtown.
    Out of curiosity, what was the posh hotel restaurant that you referenced.

  950. GftNC …
    To be sure, you can get a bad meal in Orlando and we are the hometown for Darden Restaurant Group (I apologize on behalf of O’town for unleashing Olive Garden and Red Lobster in an unsuspecting world), but there are some bright spots …
    Here are five current or recent James Beard Foundation Award semi-finalists:
    Chef Kathleen Blake – The Rusty Spoon
    Chef Scott Hunnel – Victoria & Albert’s at Disney’s Grand Floridian Resort & Spa
    Chef Brandon McGlamery – Luma on Park
    James and Julie Petrakis – The Ravenous Pig
    Chef Hari Pulapaka – Cress
    (Full disclosure: James and Julie Petrakis are clients of my firm)
    If you are vegetarian, Cress is probably your best choice, but in all candor, our best vegetarian restaurants are cheap eats downtown.
    Out of curiosity, what was the posh hotel restaurant that you referenced.

  951. Can’t remember anything about the hotel, Pollo, but if I find out I’ll let you know. In the meantime, thanks so much for the recommendations. Any steers to good ethnic (i.e. mexican, middle eastern, greek, cuban etc) places would also be welcome.

  952. Can’t remember anything about the hotel, Pollo, but if I find out I’ll let you know. In the meantime, thanks so much for the recommendations. Any steers to good ethnic (i.e. mexican, middle eastern, greek, cuban etc) places would also be welcome.

  953. i’m sure they are. but i never hear wingnuts complaining about them.
    We have plenty of wingnuts. No need to worry. Portland also has a bit of a disreputable reputation for being a “overly white (nationalist)” as it were.
    We also have a good deal of agriculture throughout the state.
    Nobody’s perfect.
    wj: I thought Buffet lived in Omaha, or were you being tongue-in-cheek?

  954. i’m sure they are. but i never hear wingnuts complaining about them.
    We have plenty of wingnuts. No need to worry. Portland also has a bit of a disreputable reputation for being a “overly white (nationalist)” as it were.
    We also have a good deal of agriculture throughout the state.
    Nobody’s perfect.
    wj: I thought Buffet lived in Omaha, or were you being tongue-in-cheek?

  955. Bobby, definitely tongue firmly in cheek. When the richest man in America, for a lot of years of my lifetime, was in Nebraska (i.e. right in the middle of “fly-over” country), it’s hard to take seriously arguments that the elites are on the coasts….

  956. Bobby, definitely tongue firmly in cheek. When the richest man in America, for a lot of years of my lifetime, was in Nebraska (i.e. right in the middle of “fly-over” country), it’s hard to take seriously arguments that the elites are on the coasts….

  957. Mexican: Frontera Cocina
    Middle Eastern: Bosphorous
    Greek: Greek Corner (it’s in a little eclectic antique area on a lake and down the street from a dessert spot called Better than Sex)
    Cuban: Black Bean Deli

  958. Mexican: Frontera Cocina
    Middle Eastern: Bosphorous
    Greek: Greek Corner (it’s in a little eclectic antique area on a lake and down the street from a dessert spot called Better than Sex)
    Cuban: Black Bean Deli

  959. When the richest man in America, for a lot of years of my lifetime, was in Nebraska (i.e. right in the middle of “fly-over” country), it’s hard to take seriously arguments that the elites are on the coasts….
    Silly wj, “rich” and “elite” are not equivalent categories, by a very long shot.

  960. When the richest man in America, for a lot of years of my lifetime, was in Nebraska (i.e. right in the middle of “fly-over” country), it’s hard to take seriously arguments that the elites are on the coasts….
    Silly wj, “rich” and “elite” are not equivalent categories, by a very long shot.

  961. “Silly wj, “rich” and “elite” are not equivalent categories, by a very long shot.”
    This.
    Old money ivy league will look down on new money all day long. I’ve had self made clients who have tried to break into what passes for “society” here in old money Florida (Tampa and Miami mostly). It’s like watching a slow motion car accident.

  962. “Silly wj, “rich” and “elite” are not equivalent categories, by a very long shot.”
    This.
    Old money ivy league will look down on new money all day long. I’ve had self made clients who have tried to break into what passes for “society” here in old money Florida (Tampa and Miami mostly). It’s like watching a slow motion car accident.

  963. When the richest man in America, for a lot of years of my lifetime, was in Nebraska…
    but does he eat avocado toast?

  964. When the richest man in America, for a lot of years of my lifetime, was in Nebraska…
    but does he eat avocado toast?

  969. JanieM: … “rich” and “elite” are not equivalent categories …
    I can’t tell whether you’re being snarky or sincere, Janie — but ain’t it great when you’re right either way?
    FWIW, “elite” originally connoted “chosen” rather than “superior”, though I suspect “the elite” were always the ones doing the choosing.
    Also FWIW, here is one of my favorite quotes of all time:

    I believe in aristocracy, though — if that is the right word, and if a democrat may use it. Not an aristocracy of power, based upon rank and influence, but an aristocracy of the sensitive, the considerate and the plucky. Its members are to be found in all nations and classes, and all through the ages, and there is a secret understanding between them when they meet. They represent the true human tradition, the one permanent victory of our queer race over cruelty and chaos. Thousands of them perish in obscurity, a few are great names. They are sensitive for others as well as themselves, they are considerate without being fussy, their pluck is not swankiness but power to endure, and they can take a joke.

    That was E.M. Forster, who may or may not have been one of the “elite”.
    –TP

  970. JanieM: … “rich” and “elite” are not equivalent categories …
    I can’t tell whether you’re being snarky or sincere, Janie — but ain’t it great when you’re right either way?
    FWIW, “elite” originally connoted “chosen” rather than “superior”, though I suspect “the elite” were always the ones doing the choosing.
    Also FWIW, here is one of my favorite quotes of all time:

    I believe in aristocracy, though — if that is the right word, and if a democrat may use it. Not an aristocracy of power, based upon rank and influence, but an aristocracy of the sensitive, the considerate and the plucky. Its members are to be found in all nations and classes, and all through the ages, and there is a secret understanding between them when they meet. They represent the true human tradition, the one permanent victory of our queer race over cruelty and chaos. Thousands of them perish in obscurity, a few are great names. They are sensitive for others as well as themselves, they are considerate without being fussy, their pluck is not swankiness but power to endure, and they can take a joke.

    That was E.M. Forster, who may or may not have been one of the “elite”.
    –TP

  971. TP, in the sense in which the terms were being tossed around — as in people in “flyover country” resenting what they think the people they think of as “coastal elites” think of people in “flyover country” — you’re probably right, I was being both serious and snarky, although it was a pretty throwaway comment, tossed out while I put the groceries away. (The trend continues.)
    That was E.M. Forster, who may or may not have been one of the “elite”.
    Well yes, may or may not. In your usage and mine, it all depends on the definition, doesn’t it?
    I don’t think the “coastal elites,” if defined as those who supposedly look down on people in “flyover country,” are defined by monetary wealth at all. It’s an attitude thing (real or imagined). Maybe partly an education thing. I don’t even think it’s pollo’s old money/new money, which is real enough but a different fault line.
    Back to chores, I’m just playing around at this point.

  972. TP, in the sense in which the terms were being tossed around — as in people in “flyover country” resenting what they think the people they think of as “coastal elites” think of people in “flyover country” — you’re probably right, I was being both serious and snarky, although it was a pretty throwaway comment, tossed out while I put the groceries away. (The trend continues.)
    That was E.M. Forster, who may or may not have been one of the “elite”.
    Well yes, may or may not. In your usage and mine, it all depends on the definition, doesn’t it?
    I don’t think the “coastal elites,” if defined as those who supposedly look down on people in “flyover country,” are defined by monetary wealth at all. It’s an attitude thing (real or imagined). Maybe partly an education thing. I don’t even think it’s pollo’s old money/new money, which is real enough but a different fault line.
    Back to chores, I’m just playing around at this point.

  973. People are provincial. European countries (including UK and Ireland, etc.) can teach us a lot about that. Not that we need to be taught, as is obvious.

  974. People are provincial. European countries (including UK and Ireland, etc.) can teach us a lot about that. Not that we need to be taught, as is obvious.

  975. “rich” and “elite” are not equivalent categories
    Janie, you know that. And I know that. But they seem to get used fairly interchangeably by those who complain most about the “coastal elites.” They, and most of the folks they know, aren’t rich — and their perception at least appears to be that everybody in (metropolitan) New York and California is.
    They resent both being relatively poor, and being looked down upon. But they seem to think that the former is at least a significant cause of the latter.

  976. “rich” and “elite” are not equivalent categories
    Janie, you know that. And I know that. But they seem to get used fairly interchangeably by those who complain most about the “coastal elites.” They, and most of the folks they know, aren’t rich — and their perception at least appears to be that everybody in (metropolitan) New York and California is.
    They resent both being relatively poor, and being looked down upon. But they seem to think that the former is at least a significant cause of the latter.

  977. wj — this is a blog comment thread, not a sociology research project, so unless I had time and inclination to do a lot of google digging (I don’t), I can’t cite anything but impressions and anecdata from e.g. my annual or oftener trips to Ohio, where it seems to be far more about attitudes and cultural factors than about wealth.
    I also think that a lot of our impression of this phenomenon is filtered through the media, and I do mean filtered.

  978. wj — this is a blog comment thread, not a sociology research project, so unless I had time and inclination to do a lot of google digging (I don’t), I can’t cite anything but impressions and anecdata from e.g. my annual or oftener trips to Ohio, where it seems to be far more about attitudes and cultural factors than about wealth.
    I also think that a lot of our impression of this phenomenon is filtered through the media, and I do mean filtered.

  979. Anecdote.
    A couple of years ago, thinking I might want my own website someday, I acquired a domain name. I knew nothing about the process (a topic in itself), but when I looked into it I found that there were all these relatively new domains that I didn’t know existed, one of which was dot-wtf.
    I just had to have me one of those. “janie.wtf” was taken, along with a couple of other obvious ones, but I ended up with one that I rather like, if only I could find time to do something with it:
    ikeepwondering dot wtf
    A couple of Ohio trips ago I told one of my relatives, to whom I’m very close despite our political differences, about my domain, as just a funny story. (Clever name, huh? and all that.)
    My relative pondered this information for about twenty-four hours and then informed me that this was just another example of the vast left-wing conspiracy to destroy America.
    This has nothing to do with wealth………

  980. Anecdote.
    A couple of years ago, thinking I might want my own website someday, I acquired a domain name. I knew nothing about the process (a topic in itself), but when I looked into it I found that there were all these relatively new domains that I didn’t know existed, one of which was dot-wtf.
    I just had to have me one of those. “janie.wtf” was taken, along with a couple of other obvious ones, but I ended up with one that I rather like, if only I could find time to do something with it:
    ikeepwondering dot wtf
    A couple of Ohio trips ago I told one of my relatives, to whom I’m very close despite our political differences, about my domain, as just a funny story. (Clever name, huh? and all that.)
    My relative pondered this information for about twenty-four hours and then informed me that this was just another example of the vast left-wing conspiracy to destroy America.
    This has nothing to do with wealth………

  981. Pollo is of course right about the probably age-old phenomenon of old money v new money, though I think this has very little to do with the modern use of “elites”. (Thanks Pollo for recommendations, by the way).
    But I must say, based on the mood music of everything we observe being said (in election years and otherwise), “elites” seems to cover whatever the particular aggrieved at the particular moment want it to cover. FWIW, my impression is overwhelmingly that it is not generally to do with wealth, but more to do with a) higher education, b) “prestigious” jobs and last but definitely not least, c) actual knowledge, scientific or otherwise. It seems to go very much against the tenor of the times that people should be able to claim knowledge, based on facts, and be able to demonstrate the basis of their opinions. People who cannot do so, dispute the very concept of provable fact, and resent those who have these skills at their disposal, seem to me to be the population which is being manipulated to resent the “elites”. And it is in the interests of the manipulators that these “elites” are never properly defined, so that they can be whichever hate group the target audience is made to feel inadequate by at any given moment.
    Apart from this, Janie: thanks for Alice, and I love ikeepwondering dot wtf. When you finally decide what to do with it, it’s bound to be popular!

  982. Pollo is of course right about the probably age-old phenomenon of old money v new money, though I think this has very little to do with the modern use of “elites”. (Thanks Pollo for recommendations, by the way).
    But I must say, based on the mood music of everything we observe being said (in election years and otherwise), “elites” seems to cover whatever the particular aggrieved at the particular moment want it to cover. FWIW, my impression is overwhelmingly that it is not generally to do with wealth, but more to do with a) higher education, b) “prestigious” jobs and last but definitely not least, c) actual knowledge, scientific or otherwise. It seems to go very much against the tenor of the times that people should be able to claim knowledge, based on facts, and be able to demonstrate the basis of their opinions. People who cannot do so, dispute the very concept of provable fact, and resent those who have these skills at their disposal, seem to me to be the population which is being manipulated to resent the “elites”. And it is in the interests of the manipulators that these “elites” are never properly defined, so that they can be whichever hate group the target audience is made to feel inadequate by at any given moment.
    Apart from this, Janie: thanks for Alice, and I love ikeepwondering dot wtf. When you finally decide what to do with it, it’s bound to be popular!

  983. GftNc,
    That is the most elitist explanation of what elite means I have ever read. It is a perfect example. They believe they are better educated, have more important jobs, and, if course, their opinions are based on provable fact.
    Everyone else just hates them because they are better educated, smarter and wealthier which by definition makes them right.
    Not really.
    Coastal elites is a term for the attitude perfectly displayed in your comment.

  984. GftNc,
    That is the most elitist explanation of what elite means I have ever read. It is a perfect example. They believe they are better educated, have more important jobs, and, if course, their opinions are based on provable fact.
    Everyone else just hates them because they are better educated, smarter and wealthier which by definition makes them right.
    Not really.
    Coastal elites is a term for the attitude perfectly displayed in your comment.

  985. Marty,
    Of course I was aware that was a possible interpretation of what I was trying to say. But do you seriously dispute that, for example, emotion has replaced rational discourse as a basis for opinion on political or social issues? Do you seriously dispute this when the CDC has been “discouraged” from using the terms “evidence-based” and “science-based” in their budget documents? Do you think the coal miners who believed Trump’s promises on the coal industry were open to opinions from energy industry experts who adduced evidence to throw doubt on those promises, or do you concede that they probably thought they were just the smug, self-satisfied ravings of the elites?

  986. Marty,
    Of course I was aware that was a possible interpretation of what I was trying to say. But do you seriously dispute that, for example, emotion has replaced rational discourse as a basis for opinion on political or social issues? Do you seriously dispute this when the CDC has been “discouraged” from using the terms “evidence-based” and “science-based” in their budget documents? Do you think the coal miners who believed Trump’s promises on the coal industry were open to opinions from energy industry experts who adduced evidence to throw doubt on those promises, or do you concede that they probably thought they were just the smug, self-satisfied ravings of the elites?

  987. Everyone else just hates them because they are better educated, smarter and wealthier which by definition makes them right.
    Not really.
    and here, I thought it was all about the arugula.
    haha!!
    The thing I find confusing in all of this BS is this.
    My FB friend who I referred to upthread, and who resents all of us coastal elites with our arrogant ways, is one half of a professional gay couple. He’s an attorney, his husband is a psychiatrist. They travel extensively, have a lovely home, participate in a very wide range of cultural activities and interests including sponsoring young people who are pursuing careers in theater.
    If you took the phrase “lives in Cincinnati” out of that description, they pretty sound, stereotypically and almost cartoonishly, like what people seem to get on about when they talk about “elites”.
    They just don’t live on the coast. So, somehow, they are regular folks and put-upon to boot, while my neighbors, who are cops nurses teachers and a retired guy who works part time at a local garden center, are coastal elites.
    It’s bullshit.
    My point upthread was that the whole “coastal elite” thing is a bullshit myth. It’s propagated to keep us all at each others’ throats. It’s divisive, harmful bullshit.
    We’re all just living our lives, just like you. Some of us think some of you are hayseed goobers. More than a few of you all think we’re all arrogant assholes who couldn’t find our own asses with both hands and a flashlight.
    And it’s all bullshit.
    The folks who go on about the “coastal elites” are exactly like the folks who go on about “flyover country”. They are both idiots judging other people based on stupid stereotypes.

  988. Everyone else just hates them because they are better educated, smarter and wealthier which by definition makes them right.
    Not really.
    and here, I thought it was all about the arugula.
    haha!!
    The thing I find confusing in all of this BS is this.
    My FB friend who I referred to upthread, and who resents all of us coastal elites with our arrogant ways, is one half of a professional gay couple. He’s an attorney, his husband is a psychiatrist. They travel extensively, have a lovely home, participate in a very wide range of cultural activities and interests including sponsoring young people who are pursuing careers in theater.
    If you took the phrase “lives in Cincinnati” out of that description, they pretty sound, stereotypically and almost cartoonishly, like what people seem to get on about when they talk about “elites”.
    They just don’t live on the coast. So, somehow, they are regular folks and put-upon to boot, while my neighbors, who are cops nurses teachers and a retired guy who works part time at a local garden center, are coastal elites.
    It’s bullshit.
    My point upthread was that the whole “coastal elite” thing is a bullshit myth. It’s propagated to keep us all at each others’ throats. It’s divisive, harmful bullshit.
    We’re all just living our lives, just like you. Some of us think some of you are hayseed goobers. More than a few of you all think we’re all arrogant assholes who couldn’t find our own asses with both hands and a flashlight.
    And it’s all bullshit.
    The folks who go on about the “coastal elites” are exactly like the folks who go on about “flyover country”. They are both idiots judging other people based on stupid stereotypes.

  989. “elites” seems to cover whatever the particular aggrieved at the particular moment want it to cover.
    Despite Marty’s protestations, this.

  990. “elites” seems to cover whatever the particular aggrieved at the particular moment want it to cover.
    Despite Marty’s protestations, this.

  991. They believe they are better educated, have more important jobs, and, if course, their opinions are based on provable fact.
    right. exactly as ‘flyover’ people do.

  992. They believe they are better educated, have more important jobs, and, if course, their opinions are based on provable fact.
    right. exactly as ‘flyover’ people do.

  993. And the more I think about it, Marty’s response that GftNC is behaving problematically like an elite exemplifies the sort of put-out elite-bashing we’re discussing. Who’s the better example? GftNC representing the elites or Marty representing the aggrieved?

  994. And the more I think about it, Marty’s response that GftNC is behaving problematically like an elite exemplifies the sort of put-out elite-bashing we’re discussing. Who’s the better example? GftNC representing the elites or Marty representing the aggrieved?

  995. There are people who value knowledge and expertise and acute analysis, and people who think “alternative facts” are just as good as real ones. I’m with the former group: if that makes me an elitist I’ll live with the opprobrium.
    Politic leanings aside, I like Obama’s approach and hate Trump’s.
    Trump is the one from New York.

  996. There are people who value knowledge and expertise and acute analysis, and people who think “alternative facts” are just as good as real ones. I’m with the former group: if that makes me an elitist I’ll live with the opprobrium.
    Politic leanings aside, I like Obama’s approach and hate Trump’s.
    Trump is the one from New York.

  997. There are people who value knowledge and expertise and acute analysis, …
    And there are people who think knowledge, expertise, and analysis give them the ability and the right to manage other people’s lives. A pox on technocrats.

  998. There are people who value knowledge and expertise and acute analysis, …
    And there are people who think knowledge, expertise, and analysis give them the ability and the right to manage other people’s lives. A pox on technocrats.

  999. Underlying a lot of this is the recognition that the coastal elites, many of whom I know, believe that they are superior intellectually, morally and ethically, thus having the right to decide how everyone else lives.
    It’s not that complicated. Dont those people in WV see what the experts said? Sure but that doesnt mean they all want the mines to close and go on welfare. Of course closing mines doesn’t impact people in SF and Boston at all.
    In the reverse, evangelicals believe God told us how to live and they only have the playbook.
    So everyone feels put upon, except the tide seems to be that the coastal elites have an actual plan that may eventually work to impose their views on everyone.
    And they are quite transparent that’s their goal.

  1000. Underlying a lot of this is the recognition that the coastal elites, many of whom I know, believe that they are superior intellectually, morally and ethically, thus having the right to decide how everyone else lives.
    It’s not that complicated. Dont those people in WV see what the experts said? Sure but that doesnt mean they all want the mines to close and go on welfare. Of course closing mines doesn’t impact people in SF and Boston at all.
    In the reverse, evangelicals believe God told us how to live and they only have the playbook.
    So everyone feels put upon, except the tide seems to be that the coastal elites have an actual plan that may eventually work to impose their views on everyone.
    And they are quite transparent that’s their goal.

  1001. the coastal elites have an actual plan
    this needs defining. who are the coastal elites? where do they live exactly?
    because it sounds like you’re using “coastal elite” as just another word for “Democrat”.

  1002. the coastal elites have an actual plan
    this needs defining. who are the coastal elites? where do they live exactly?
    because it sounds like you’re using “coastal elite” as just another word for “Democrat”.

  1003. There are people who value knowledge and expertise and acute analysis, and people who think “alternative facts” are just as good as real ones. I’m with the former group: if that makes me an elitist I’ll live with the opprobrium.
    My viewpoint exactly. And if on this basis I am to represent the elites, I’m happy to do so. But seriously, I do think this whole phenomenon is pretty poisonous, and as russell rightly says:
    It’s propagated to keep us all at each others’ throats. It’s divisive, harmful bullshit.

  1004. There are people who value knowledge and expertise and acute analysis, and people who think “alternative facts” are just as good as real ones. I’m with the former group: if that makes me an elitist I’ll live with the opprobrium.
    My viewpoint exactly. And if on this basis I am to represent the elites, I’m happy to do so. But seriously, I do think this whole phenomenon is pretty poisonous, and as russell rightly says:
    It’s propagated to keep us all at each others’ throats. It’s divisive, harmful bullshit.

  1007. “because it sounds like you’re using “coastal elite” as just another word for “Democrat”.”
    Actually there is a difference in the definitions. Democrats in general are just the base fooled by the elites. They are made to feel superior and righteous while supporting policies that are almost entirely detrimental to the middle class.
    When people complain then the elites simply tell them they need to grow up and blindly vote for Dems because they don’t have any other real choice, that they are helping the bad guys.
    Ultimately “coastal” is just a description of where they are concentrated.

  1008. “because it sounds like you’re using “coastal elite” as just another word for “Democrat”.”
    Actually there is a difference in the definitions. Democrats in general are just the base fooled by the elites. They are made to feel superior and righteous while supporting policies that are almost entirely detrimental to the middle class.
    When people complain then the elites simply tell them they need to grow up and blindly vote for Dems because they don’t have any other real choice, that they are helping the bad guys.
    Ultimately “coastal” is just a description of where they are concentrated.

  1009. Why should people in WV get to decide what I have to breathe?
    Don’t you read their stuff? They are the “REAL Americans”. You, obviously, are not. What do they want? They, like everybody else in an organized political group, want to have their way.
    But you also must realize that their demanding to have their way is RIGHTEOUS and your demanding to have YOUR way is the sniveling efrontry of your over-educated arrogance.
    But YOU, you know, YOU, you elitist snob, are the one with the ACTUAL sinister plan.
    And now you know…….the rest of the story. Good day.

  1010. Why should people in WV get to decide what I have to breathe?
    Don’t you read their stuff? They are the “REAL Americans”. You, obviously, are not. What do they want? They, like everybody else in an organized political group, want to have their way.
    But you also must realize that their demanding to have their way is RIGHTEOUS and your demanding to have YOUR way is the sniveling efrontry of your over-educated arrogance.
    But YOU, you know, YOU, you elitist snob, are the one with the ACTUAL sinister plan.
    And now you know…….the rest of the story. Good day.

  1011. Lots of people, including the vice president of the United States, would like to put me back in the closet, stunting my life and making it impossible for me to live as the normal humdrum human being that I am. Plenty of people would like to see my relationship life re-criminalized; in fact, as of March 2017, it had never been de-criminalized (per statute) in Texas, despite Lawrence v. Texas.
    I say, “It’s my world too.”
    They say, “It’s my world, you live in it at my sufferance.”
    Yet to Marty, I’m the one who’s telling other people how to live.
    I guess it’s because of the horrible trauma it causes them to know that I exist.

  1012. Lots of people, including the vice president of the United States, would like to put me back in the closet, stunting my life and making it impossible for me to live as the normal humdrum human being that I am. Plenty of people would like to see my relationship life re-criminalized; in fact, as of March 2017, it had never been de-criminalized (per statute) in Texas, despite Lawrence v. Texas.
    I say, “It’s my world too.”
    They say, “It’s my world, you live in it at my sufferance.”
    Yet to Marty, I’m the one who’s telling other people how to live.
    I guess it’s because of the horrible trauma it causes them to know that I exist.

  1013. JanieM, you’re glossing over the plan to force white Christians into same-sex marriages with black Muslims. You’re part of the slippery slope.

  1014. JanieM, you’re glossing over the plan to force white Christians into same-sex marriages with black Muslims. You’re part of the slippery slope.

  1019. Lots of people…would like to put me back in the closet, …
    We libertarians feel so unappreciated. 🙂
    Libertarians have been for gay rights and same-sex marriage many decades before it became fashionable in other policial venues. Or, more broadly, leave people the heck alone to live their lives as they see fit as long as they’re not directly harming anyone else.
    Gay rights and same-sex marriage were included in the Libertarian Party’s first plank in 1972.

  1020. Lots of people…would like to put me back in the closet, …
    We libertarians feel so unappreciated. 🙂
    Libertarians have been for gay rights and same-sex marriage many decades before it became fashionable in other policial venues. Or, more broadly, leave people the heck alone to live their lives as they see fit as long as they’re not directly harming anyone else.
    Gay rights and same-sex marriage were included in the Libertarian Party’s first plank in 1972.

  1021. Marty and CharlesWT: duly noted.
    Sidetrack, mostly for entertainment, but relevant to the word “elitist”:
    Going through an old folder of my op-eds from years ago, I came across a letter to the editor reacting to a debate over a proposed ski resort development in Western Maine – dated 1988. (The link is to a piece in the NYT, but the article I was responding to, and my own letter, were published in the Kennebec Journal.)

    To the Editor:
    Hikers and environmentalists are elitists! (KJ 8/17/88.) We have it straight from the mouth of Donald Breen, a man with $37,000,000 to spend expanding that money machine – oops! ski resort! – called Saddleback Mountain.
    Or maybe I’ve got it wrong. Maybe Breen intends his condominiums to provide low-income housing, his shopping center to include discount stores, and his lift ticket prices to be keyed to income levels so that all sorts of people can enjoy the slopes.
    But no, I don’t suppose he does. The headline said, “Skiers, Hikers clash,” but the clash really isn’t between skiers and hikers. It’s between people who think money and glitz make the world go round, and people who don’t. It’s between people who are willing to put money into the coffers of developers like Breen and people who would prefer that the last bits of accessible wilderness left on the planet stay wilderness.
    The real trouble with hikers is not that they’re elitist. After all, the proportion of the population capable of walking up a mountain is surely higher than that able to ski down it once they’ve managed to afford the price attached to doing it. The real trouble with hikers is that they don’t spend any money while they enjoy the wilderness they’re not destroying.

    Apropos of our current discussion, note that I was happy to play on the shades of meaning connecting “elitist” with “wealthy.”

  1022. Marty and CharlesWT: duly noted.
    Sidetrack, mostly for entertainment, but relevant to the word “elitist”:
    Going through an old folder of my op-eds from years ago, I came across a letter to the editor reacting to a debate over a proposed ski resort development in Western Maine – dated 1988. (The link is to a piece in the NYT, but the article I was responding to, and my own letter, were published in the Kennebec Journal.)

    To the Editor:
    Hikers and environmentalists are elitists! (KJ 8/17/88.) We have it straight from the mouth of Donald Breen, a man with $37,000,000 to spend expanding that money machine – oops! ski resort! – called Saddleback Mountain.
    Or maybe I’ve got it wrong. Maybe Breen intends his condominiums to provide low-income housing, his shopping center to include discount stores, and his lift ticket prices to be keyed to income levels so that all sorts of people can enjoy the slopes.
    But no, I don’t suppose he does. The headline said, “Skiers, Hikers clash,” but the clash really isn’t between skiers and hikers. It’s between people who think money and glitz make the world go round, and people who don’t. It’s between people who are willing to put money into the coffers of developers like Breen and people who would prefer that the last bits of accessible wilderness left on the planet stay wilderness.
    The real trouble with hikers is not that they’re elitist. After all, the proportion of the population capable of walking up a mountain is surely higher than that able to ski down it once they’ve managed to afford the price attached to doing it. The real trouble with hikers is that they don’t spend any money while they enjoy the wilderness they’re not destroying.

    Apropos of our current discussion, note that I was happy to play on the shades of meaning connecting “elitist” with “wealthy.”

  1023. Ultimately “coastal” is just a description of where they are concentrated.
    so: NC, SC, GA, FL, TX, LA, MS, AL – all full of liberals?
    They are made to feel superior and righteous while supporting policies that are almost entirely detrimental to the middle class.
    it’s because we don’t live in the “heartland” and so we don’t have the “true American values” that “real Americans” do. and so we don’t vote to let our infrastructure crumble or give tax cuts to billionaires. if only there was a group of people somewhere who could tell us exactly how to live our lives and how we should feel about our country. alas.

  1024. Ultimately “coastal” is just a description of where they are concentrated.
    so: NC, SC, GA, FL, TX, LA, MS, AL – all full of liberals?
    They are made to feel superior and righteous while supporting policies that are almost entirely detrimental to the middle class.
    it’s because we don’t live in the “heartland” and so we don’t have the “true American values” that “real Americans” do. and so we don’t vote to let our infrastructure crumble or give tax cuts to billionaires. if only there was a group of people somewhere who could tell us exactly how to live our lives and how we should feel about our country. alas.

  1025. Also, while in the spirit of comity and acknowledging common ground in relation to certain kinds of music I am willing to “duly note” Marty’s “both sides do it” comment — still yet and again, at least as between me and the people who would like me to disappear, both sides are not doing it.
    I don’t want to criminalize some aspects of their basic humanity, I don’t want to prevent them from enjoying the fundamentals of living in a modern democracy, I don’t want them to hide in the closet, I don’t want to stop them from going to church and doing whatever it is they do there (unless it’s beating up other people). I just want them to accept that I’m here too.
    The reverse is certainly not the case.

  1026. Also, while in the spirit of comity and acknowledging common ground in relation to certain kinds of music I am willing to “duly note” Marty’s “both sides do it” comment — still yet and again, at least as between me and the people who would like me to disappear, both sides are not doing it.
    I don’t want to criminalize some aspects of their basic humanity, I don’t want to prevent them from enjoying the fundamentals of living in a modern democracy, I don’t want them to hide in the closet, I don’t want to stop them from going to church and doing whatever it is they do there (unless it’s beating up other people). I just want them to accept that I’m here too.
    The reverse is certainly not the case.

  1027. Politic leanings aside, I like Obama’s approach and hate Trump’s.
    This preference for Obama’s approach extends even to some never-Trump (for lack of a better term) Republicans. They might prefer the actual policies that Trump’s appointees are implementing. But intensely dislike the way he is utterly indifferent to facts.

  1028. Politic leanings aside, I like Obama’s approach and hate Trump’s.
    This preference for Obama’s approach extends even to some never-Trump (for lack of a better term) Republicans. They might prefer the actual policies that Trump’s appointees are implementing. But intensely dislike the way he is utterly indifferent to facts.

  1029. Democrats in general are just the base fooled by the elites. They are made to feel superior and righteous while supporting policies that are almost entirely detrimental to the middle class.

    Substitute “Republicans” for “Democrats”, same/same.
    Substitute “Libertarian” for “Democrats”, same/same.
    what is utter crap in this discussion is the idea that one set of people wants to impose their values on everyone else, while everyone else just wants to be left alone.
    including Marty, and most definitely including CharlesWT.
    everybody has their particular set of values and interests. own yours, and I will own mine. but the idea that you just “want to be left alone”, and “people like me” are trying to impose my values on you, is invidious crap.
    In a nutshell, it’s why the country is where it is right now.
    Every policy either of you guys has ever proposed or argued for here on ObWi would have *negative impacts on somebody else’s life*. Every damned one.
    You just think the overall benefit of having your preferred way of doing things would be greater than the whatever negative effects would be on everyone else.
    Because you value a certain set of ideas and beliefs. You think they are correct, and good.
    Just fucking own that, OK? Feel free to advocate for it, defend it on the merits, explain why you think it’s beneficial.
    And the rest of us will do the same. And we’ll have it out, and sometimes some of us will prevail, and other times others of us will prevail.
    Or maybe we’ll just call it a day and all go our separate ways. Which will, in itself, create a whole lot of costs and hardships that will be imposed on other people, including ourselves.
    But don’t pretend that what you want is not, precisely, a matter of imposing your values on other people. Because that is just crap. Imposing your values on other people is *exactly* what it is.

  1030. Democrats in general are just the base fooled by the elites. They are made to feel superior and righteous while supporting policies that are almost entirely detrimental to the middle class.

    Substitute “Republicans” for “Democrats”, same/same.
    Substitute “Libertarian” for “Democrats”, same/same.
    what is utter crap in this discussion is the idea that one set of people wants to impose their values on everyone else, while everyone else just wants to be left alone.
    including Marty, and most definitely including CharlesWT.
    everybody has their particular set of values and interests. own yours, and I will own mine. but the idea that you just “want to be left alone”, and “people like me” are trying to impose my values on you, is invidious crap.
    In a nutshell, it’s why the country is where it is right now.
    Every policy either of you guys has ever proposed or argued for here on ObWi would have *negative impacts on somebody else’s life*. Every damned one.
    You just think the overall benefit of having your preferred way of doing things would be greater than the whatever negative effects would be on everyone else.
    Because you value a certain set of ideas and beliefs. You think they are correct, and good.
    Just fucking own that, OK? Feel free to advocate for it, defend it on the merits, explain why you think it’s beneficial.
    And the rest of us will do the same. And we’ll have it out, and sometimes some of us will prevail, and other times others of us will prevail.
    Or maybe we’ll just call it a day and all go our separate ways. Which will, in itself, create a whole lot of costs and hardships that will be imposed on other people, including ourselves.
    But don’t pretend that what you want is not, precisely, a matter of imposing your values on other people. Because that is just crap. Imposing your values on other people is *exactly* what it is.

  1031. I am willing to “duly note” Marty’s “both sides do it” comment
    The preferences of evangelicals doesn’t begin to scratch the surface of the million and a half ways in which people who say they “just want to be left alone” would be perfectly happy to impose a mountain of crap on the rest of us.
    So that they can be “left alone”, which is to say, allowed to do whatever the hell it is they want to do.

  1032. I am willing to “duly note” Marty’s “both sides do it” comment
    The preferences of evangelicals doesn’t begin to scratch the surface of the million and a half ways in which people who say they “just want to be left alone” would be perfectly happy to impose a mountain of crap on the rest of us.
    So that they can be “left alone”, which is to say, allowed to do whatever the hell it is they want to do.

  1033. …, while everyone else just wants to be left alone.
    including Marty, and most definitely including CharlesWT.
    Everyone should be left alone. Don’t Tread On Anyone.
    I suppose that approach could be viewed as an imposition by those who think they know how society should be organized.

  1034. …, while everyone else just wants to be left alone.
    including Marty, and most definitely including CharlesWT.
    Everyone should be left alone. Don’t Tread On Anyone.
    I suppose that approach could be viewed as an imposition by those who think they know how society should be organized.

  1035. Underlying a lot of this is the recognition that the coastal elites, many of whom I know, believe that they are superior intellectually, morally and ethically, thus having the right to decide how everyone else lives.
    Which is true of both (all?) sides. I defy anyone to listen to, for example, the “Moral Majority” and say that they don’t think that they have “the right to decide how everyone else lives”.

  1036. Underlying a lot of this is the recognition that the coastal elites, many of whom I know, believe that they are superior intellectually, morally and ethically, thus having the right to decide how everyone else lives.
    Which is true of both (all?) sides. I defy anyone to listen to, for example, the “Moral Majority” and say that they don’t think that they have “the right to decide how everyone else lives”.

  1037. So that they can be “left alone”, which is to say, allowed to do whatever the hell it is they want to do.
    Yes, they should be allowed to do whatever the hell it is they want to do as long as they don’t directly harm anyone else in the process.

  1038. So that they can be “left alone”, which is to say, allowed to do whatever the hell it is they want to do.
    Yes, they should be allowed to do whatever the hell it is they want to do as long as they don’t directly harm anyone else in the process.

  1039. as long as they don’t directly harm anyone else in the process
    So indirect harm to pretty much everyone and everything, including flora and fauna and future generations, as from pouring pollutants into rivers and streams and the air, is okay?

  1040. as long as they don’t directly harm anyone else in the process
    So indirect harm to pretty much everyone and everything, including flora and fauna and future generations, as from pouring pollutants into rivers and streams and the air, is okay?

  1041. …, as from pouring pollutants into rivers and streams and the air, is okay?
    Those would seem to be direct harms, trespass against property.
    Rivers and streams have often suffered from the tragedy of the commons since they’re usually public, not private property. If not polluters themselves, governments have often ignored pollution or wrote regulations that protected pollutes from lawsuits while allowing pollution levels no private owner would.
    Due to its nature, air pollution has the strongest argument for government regulation to limit it.

  1042. …, as from pouring pollutants into rivers and streams and the air, is okay?
    Those would seem to be direct harms, trespass against property.
    Rivers and streams have often suffered from the tragedy of the commons since they’re usually public, not private property. If not polluters themselves, governments have often ignored pollution or wrote regulations that protected pollutes from lawsuits while allowing pollution levels no private owner would.
    Due to its nature, air pollution has the strongest argument for government regulation to limit it.

  1043. they should be allowed to do whatever the hell it is they want to do as long as they don’t directly harm anyone else in the process.
    there’s the question of indirect harms, noted above.
    and then there’s the question of how we sort out the cases where one man’s harm is another man’s “no big deal”.
    regulation, lawsuits, or guns. take your pick.

  1044. they should be allowed to do whatever the hell it is they want to do as long as they don’t directly harm anyone else in the process.
    there’s the question of indirect harms, noted above.
    and then there’s the question of how we sort out the cases where one man’s harm is another man’s “no big deal”.
    regulation, lawsuits, or guns. take your pick.

  1045. It’s very simple in the abstract, at least. Let’s move to the other USA (United States of Abstract).

  1046. It’s very simple in the abstract, at least. Let’s move to the other USA (United States of Abstract).

  1047. Marty: …the coastal elites … believe that they are superior intellectually, morally and ethically …
    What a contrast with Real Murkins!
    Marty: Dont those people in WV see what the experts said? Sure but that doesnt mean they all want the mines to close and go on welfare. Of course closing mines doesn’t impact people in SF and Boston at all.
    Do “those people in WV” care what happens to the coal? Suppose “people in SF and Boston” were willing to hire half the population of WV to dig coal out of the ground and the other half to bury it again (at good wages, no “welfare”). Would proud West Virginians be unhappy that the “coastal elites” are not actually burning the coal?
    Marty: In the reverse, evangelicals believe God told us how to live and they only have the playbook.
    Which makes them more like the Taliban than like “the coastal elites” which Real Murkins know to be anything but god-fearing.
    Marty: … the tide seems to be that the coastal elites have an actual plan that may eventually work to impose their views on everyone.
    When the Wingnut Welfare Establishment of plutocrat-funded “think tanks” and “foundations” has managed to enlist all three branches of the national government in its cause, who is it that has an “actual plan”?
    Marty: Democrats in general are just the base fooled by the elites. They are made to feel superior and righteous while supporting policies that are almost entirely detrimental to the middle class.
    I asked Marty once before, but I will ask again: if the Republicans were willing to increase the dreaded national debt with tax cuts, why didn’t they raise the standard deduction more and cut the corporate rate less? Could it be that they figured “the middle class” can be fooled by policies that are almost exclusively beneficial to the rich?
    –TP

  1048. Marty: …the coastal elites … believe that they are superior intellectually, morally and ethically …
    What a contrast with Real Murkins!
    Marty: Dont those people in WV see what the experts said? Sure but that doesnt mean they all want the mines to close and go on welfare. Of course closing mines doesn’t impact people in SF and Boston at all.
    Do “those people in WV” care what happens to the coal? Suppose “people in SF and Boston” were willing to hire half the population of WV to dig coal out of the ground and the other half to bury it again (at good wages, no “welfare”). Would proud West Virginians be unhappy that the “coastal elites” are not actually burning the coal?
    Marty: In the reverse, evangelicals believe God told us how to live and they only have the playbook.
    Which makes them more like the Taliban than like “the coastal elites” which Real Murkins know to be anything but god-fearing.
    Marty: … the tide seems to be that the coastal elites have an actual plan that may eventually work to impose their views on everyone.
    When the Wingnut Welfare Establishment of plutocrat-funded “think tanks” and “foundations” has managed to enlist all three branches of the national government in its cause, who is it that has an “actual plan”?
    Marty: Democrats in general are just the base fooled by the elites. They are made to feel superior and righteous while supporting policies that are almost entirely detrimental to the middle class.
    I asked Marty once before, but I will ask again: if the Republicans were willing to increase the dreaded national debt with tax cuts, why didn’t they raise the standard deduction more and cut the corporate rate less? Could it be that they figured “the middle class” can be fooled by policies that are almost exclusively beneficial to the rich?
    –TP

  1049. I would like to hear what CharlesWT has to say about this story in the Boston Globe:

    ROCKPORT — Private heliports may fly in Florida, where ostentatious displays of wealth are a proud part of the cultural landscape. But stodgy New England towns are another matter.
    And that’s not good news for Ron Roma, a Tampa businessman who was told by Massachusetts’ highest court this month that he cannot land his chopper on the lawn of his sprawling seaside home in Rockport, a small Cape Ann fishing village known for its rocky shoreline, weathered shingled houses, and historic community of painters and artisans.
    Roma, who sued Rockport after it ordered him to stop landing his helicopter at his house, said he was not surprised that he lost his case in the Supreme Judicial Court because “it’s Massachusetts.”

    I include the excerpt in case the link doesn’t work without a subscription.

  1050. I would like to hear what CharlesWT has to say about this story in the Boston Globe:

    ROCKPORT — Private heliports may fly in Florida, where ostentatious displays of wealth are a proud part of the cultural landscape. But stodgy New England towns are another matter.
    And that’s not good news for Ron Roma, a Tampa businessman who was told by Massachusetts’ highest court this month that he cannot land his chopper on the lawn of his sprawling seaside home in Rockport, a small Cape Ann fishing village known for its rocky shoreline, weathered shingled houses, and historic community of painters and artisans.
    Roma, who sued Rockport after it ordered him to stop landing his helicopter at his house, said he was not surprised that he lost his case in the Supreme Judicial Court because “it’s Massachusetts.”

    I include the excerpt in case the link doesn’t work without a subscription.

  1051. he was not surprised that he lost his case in the Supreme Judicial Court because “it’s Massachusetts.”
    damned straight.

  1052. he was not surprised that he lost his case in the Supreme Judicial Court because “it’s Massachusetts.”
    damned straight.

  1053. I would like to hear what CharlesWT has to say…
    I would say that the town shouldn’t have standing unless it can demonstrate direct harm from noise pollution, property damage from downdrafts, the risk of injury to people and pets, etc.

  1054. I would like to hear what CharlesWT has to say…
    I would say that the town shouldn’t have standing unless it can demonstrate direct harm from noise pollution, property damage from downdrafts, the risk of injury to people and pets, etc.

  1055. what if the guy’s neighbors just don’t want to listen to his freaking helicopter coming and going?
    what’s the bar for “direct harm”? does someone have to die, or is listening to a really loud annoying machine sufficient?
    why is it more important for one guy to be able to come and go in a helicopter than for everyone else to not have to listen to it?
    it’s also worth noting that rockport is, like many small-ish older new england towns, run by town meeting. “town government” is the selectmen, the bylaws are probably voted up or down in an open public meeting. i.e., “the town” is the folks who show up for town meeting.
    if the guy doesn’t like it, he can come to town meeting and make his case. if he wins, he wins. if he loses, no helicopter.
    it beats lawsuits, to prevail in court costs money. if you got no money for lawyers, you’re SOL.

  1056. what if the guy’s neighbors just don’t want to listen to his freaking helicopter coming and going?
    what’s the bar for “direct harm”? does someone have to die, or is listening to a really loud annoying machine sufficient?
    why is it more important for one guy to be able to come and go in a helicopter than for everyone else to not have to listen to it?
    it’s also worth noting that rockport is, like many small-ish older new england towns, run by town meeting. “town government” is the selectmen, the bylaws are probably voted up or down in an open public meeting. i.e., “the town” is the folks who show up for town meeting.
    if the guy doesn’t like it, he can come to town meeting and make his case. if he wins, he wins. if he loses, no helicopter.
    it beats lawsuits, to prevail in court costs money. if you got no money for lawyers, you’re SOL.

  1057. what if the guy’s neighbors just don’t want to listen to his freaking helicopter coming and going?
    Wouldn’t that constitute noise pollution? Or is the term precisely defined somewhere…?

  1058. what if the guy’s neighbors just don’t want to listen to his freaking helicopter coming and going?
    Wouldn’t that constitute noise pollution? Or is the term precisely defined somewhere…?

  1061. Charles,
    I don’t think “the town” is an entity that can hear noise or feel downdrafts. Do the residents of the town have the right to act through the town government they elected? If not, do they nevertheless have a collective obligation to provide Mr. Roma’s property with access to water, sewer, utilities, a road, or police and fire protection?
    –TP

  1062. Charles,
    I don’t think “the town” is an entity that can hear noise or feel downdrafts. Do the residents of the town have the right to act through the town government they elected? If not, do they nevertheless have a collective obligation to provide Mr. Roma’s property with access to water, sewer, utilities, a road, or police and fire protection?
    –TP

  1063. as they don’t directly harm anyone else in the process
    As a number of subsequent comments have already implied, this skims pretty daintily over the question of who gets to define harm.
    My neighbor’s helicopter noise would most certainly be a harm to me, in my opinion. As it is, if the snowmobile season weren’t as short and random as it is, I would have serious issues with the noise of people revving their engines a few yards from my house all night on weekend nights, with extra special effects from when they play Indy 500 on the lake across the road.
    If I ever move, and consider buying land somewhere else in Maine, for sure one of the things I will be looking at is how far I can get from trails accessible to snowmobiles.

  1064. as they don’t directly harm anyone else in the process
    As a number of subsequent comments have already implied, this skims pretty daintily over the question of who gets to define harm.
    My neighbor’s helicopter noise would most certainly be a harm to me, in my opinion. As it is, if the snowmobile season weren’t as short and random as it is, I would have serious issues with the noise of people revving their engines a few yards from my house all night on weekend nights, with extra special effects from when they play Indy 500 on the lake across the road.
    If I ever move, and consider buying land somewhere else in Maine, for sure one of the things I will be looking at is how far I can get from trails accessible to snowmobiles.

  1065. More on Mr Roma:
    http://www.salemnews.com/news/local_news/sjc-rockport-has-right-to-restrict-helicopter/article_7073f804-b68b-5fdf-bc55-ac3eb9ee5755.html
    A Timeline of Mr. Roma’s actions leading up to the complaint:
    http://www.gloucestertimes.com/timeline-helicopter-landings-in-rockport/collection_d31a5f06-b926-11e4-88ad-83016fb06589.html
    If you have Google Earth, navigate to 133R Granite Stree, Rockport, Massachusetts. Roma owns several contiguous properties.
    https://earth.google.com/web/@42.672953,-70.621442,9.44503889a,752.14923166d,35y,0h,45t,0r/data=ClIaUBJKCiUweDg5ZTMyOGEwNzQ1OWY1OWQ6MHhlZDdmYTc0NDZkMWNiNTk4GV9f61IjVkVAIRiXqrTFp1HAKg8xMzNSIEdyYW5pdGUgU3QYAiABKAI
    Seems Mr. Roma had FAA approval to land the copter, in other words, the intrusive Federal government, at Mr. Roma’s request, usurped well-established LOCAL land use ordinances, where conservatives believe all decision-making starts and ends.
    I would imagine CharlesWT wouldn’t mind if an FAA permit was not required either, but he can correct me on that impression.
    I’d say if Roma appeals to a higher court and wins, then his neighbors should schedule skeet shooting contests from their properties out over the water at the same time Roma is trying to land.
    And, what the hell is a Florida coastal elitist doing moving into an elitist coastal community in Massachusetts?
    He could move to Texas and land on his neighbor’s lawn, for all they apparently care.

  1066. More on Mr Roma:
    http://www.salemnews.com/news/local_news/sjc-rockport-has-right-to-restrict-helicopter/article_7073f804-b68b-5fdf-bc55-ac3eb9ee5755.html
    A Timeline of Mr. Roma’s actions leading up to the complaint:
    http://www.gloucestertimes.com/timeline-helicopter-landings-in-rockport/collection_d31a5f06-b926-11e4-88ad-83016fb06589.html
    If you have Google Earth, navigate to 133R Granite Stree, Rockport, Massachusetts. Roma owns several contiguous properties.
    https://earth.google.com/web/@42.672953,-70.621442,9.44503889a,752.14923166d,35y,0h,45t,0r/data=ClIaUBJKCiUweDg5ZTMyOGEwNzQ1OWY1OWQ6MHhlZDdmYTc0NDZkMWNiNTk4GV9f61IjVkVAIRiXqrTFp1HAKg8xMzNSIEdyYW5pdGUgU3QYAiABKAI
    Seems Mr. Roma had FAA approval to land the copter, in other words, the intrusive Federal government, at Mr. Roma’s request, usurped well-established LOCAL land use ordinances, where conservatives believe all decision-making starts and ends.
    I would imagine CharlesWT wouldn’t mind if an FAA permit was not required either, but he can correct me on that impression.
    I’d say if Roma appeals to a higher court and wins, then his neighbors should schedule skeet shooting contests from their properties out over the water at the same time Roma is trying to land.
    And, what the hell is a Florida coastal elitist doing moving into an elitist coastal community in Massachusetts?
    He could move to Texas and land on his neighbor’s lawn, for all they apparently care.

  1067. In the article, the town’s residents seem only concerned with indirect harms:
    “Town officials hailed the court ruling as a victory for residents who want to prevent Rockport from turning into another seaside vacation town jammed with affluent newcomers who show little regard for the community’s small-town charm.”
    Perhaps they didn’t try or couldn’t show much in the way of direct harms.
    But, then, communities zone against all kind of things. Some prohibit pickup trucks.
    More on the controversy:
    Gants, in the 21-page decision, said the Appeals Court panel had focused on the wrong issue and that its reasoning had a major “flaw” — that the real issue was how cities and towns regulate the use of land, not aircraft.
    “In short, what was at issue in Hanlon (the Sheffield case) was not the ‘use and operation of aircraft’ … but the use of land, the regulation of which has traditionally been within the domain of cities and towns through their zoning authority.”
    “The Legislature has long bestowed broad authority on cities and towns to regulate the use of land through various zoning enactments,” the decision said.
    Rockport can restrict copter: High court rules issue is use of land, not aircraft

  1068. In the article, the town’s residents seem only concerned with indirect harms:
    “Town officials hailed the court ruling as a victory for residents who want to prevent Rockport from turning into another seaside vacation town jammed with affluent newcomers who show little regard for the community’s small-town charm.”
    Perhaps they didn’t try or couldn’t show much in the way of direct harms.
    But, then, communities zone against all kind of things. Some prohibit pickup trucks.
    More on the controversy:
    Gants, in the 21-page decision, said the Appeals Court panel had focused on the wrong issue and that its reasoning had a major “flaw” — that the real issue was how cities and towns regulate the use of land, not aircraft.
    “In short, what was at issue in Hanlon (the Sheffield case) was not the ‘use and operation of aircraft’ … but the use of land, the regulation of which has traditionally been within the domain of cities and towns through their zoning authority.”
    “The Legislature has long bestowed broad authority on cities and towns to regulate the use of land through various zoning enactments,” the decision said.
    Rockport can restrict copter: High court rules issue is use of land, not aircraft

  1069. “small-town charm”
    I can’t tell if that sounds bi-coastal elitist or mid-western flyover. Could be it’s same same.
    I’ve flown over most of America, including LA, SF, and NYC on the way out of the country, and never had a complaint from the elites below. I’ve taken Greyhounds across country that stop every twelve miles and no one has ever handed me the keys to Mayberry for the trouble it took me. I’ve hitch hiked across America and not been harassed by law enforcement on the coasts and wish I could say the same for everything in between, but this was before civil forfeiture, practiced by local fascist hayseed police forces, so I paid the fine and went on my way still owning my pants.
    I’ve driven just about everywhere in the lower 48 and everyone is about as nice as can be, except for those farm boys in Minnesota on the country road who ran me off into the woods for, I guess, the shoulder-length hair.
    They probably moved to one of the coasts later to sample sodomy as free Americans and sign on with a republican think tank and I don’t hold it against them …. that first thing. The second has done irreparable harm to America.
    Russell, up above, used the term “bullshit”, America’s middle name now under the colossal pig shit republican program these last forty years to demonize the OTHER and make sure those who agree with them THINK THEY are the OTHER .. in a sort of paroxysm of victim envy when every originalist faulty assumption about this country was handed to them on a plate they smuggled in on the fucking Mayflower.
    Ronald Reagan .. Hollywood, the Left Coast elitist goes after mythical fat black Caddy-driving welfare mothers in flyover country… Chicago.
    She was so fat in his mind that he could spot her from the air as he flew over Chicago, the heartland, on his way to Washington D.C. to apply elitist policies to her fat behind, which is why Nancy Reagan, who blew who her way to mediocrity in Hollywood, and yet achieved meritocracy … it’s amazing how those two terms get confused in people’s minds …. kept the weight off, just in case the addled B actor might change his mind.

  1070. “small-town charm”
    I can’t tell if that sounds bi-coastal elitist or mid-western flyover. Could be it’s same same.
    I’ve flown over most of America, including LA, SF, and NYC on the way out of the country, and never had a complaint from the elites below. I’ve taken Greyhounds across country that stop every twelve miles and no one has ever handed me the keys to Mayberry for the trouble it took me. I’ve hitch hiked across America and not been harassed by law enforcement on the coasts and wish I could say the same for everything in between, but this was before civil forfeiture, practiced by local fascist hayseed police forces, so I paid the fine and went on my way still owning my pants.
    I’ve driven just about everywhere in the lower 48 and everyone is about as nice as can be, except for those farm boys in Minnesota on the country road who ran me off into the woods for, I guess, the shoulder-length hair.
    They probably moved to one of the coasts later to sample sodomy as free Americans and sign on with a republican think tank and I don’t hold it against them …. that first thing. The second has done irreparable harm to America.
    Russell, up above, used the term “bullshit”, America’s middle name now under the colossal pig shit republican program these last forty years to demonize the OTHER and make sure those who agree with them THINK THEY are the OTHER .. in a sort of paroxysm of victim envy when every originalist faulty assumption about this country was handed to them on a plate they smuggled in on the fucking Mayflower.
    Ronald Reagan .. Hollywood, the Left Coast elitist goes after mythical fat black Caddy-driving welfare mothers in flyover country… Chicago.
    She was so fat in his mind that he could spot her from the air as he flew over Chicago, the heartland, on his way to Washington D.C. to apply elitist policies to her fat behind, which is why Nancy Reagan, who blew who her way to mediocrity in Hollywood, and yet achieved meritocracy … it’s amazing how those two terms get confused in people’s minds …. kept the weight off, just in case the addled B actor might change his mind.

  1071. My Dadaist juxtapositioning missed this, I’m ashamed to say.
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/she-said-vince-mcmahon-sexually-assaulted-her-in-a-tanning-booth-police-found-probable-cause-prosecutors-shrugged
    I mean, ya figure fake news WWF originalists and Papa John’s coming together all in one kanoodlingpalooza would be a logical outcome of soul-less Christian Objectivist syncretism into one big rape camp.
    At least Hillary had the taste to find a pizzaria with a basement to avoid the inevitable FOX News-enabled conservative fucking gunfire.
    I’d move to Washington D.C. too to fake knowing anything about coastal elitist small business administration.

  1072. My Dadaist juxtapositioning missed this, I’m ashamed to say.
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/she-said-vince-mcmahon-sexually-assaulted-her-in-a-tanning-booth-police-found-probable-cause-prosecutors-shrugged
    I mean, ya figure fake news WWF originalists and Papa John’s coming together all in one kanoodlingpalooza would be a logical outcome of soul-less Christian Objectivist syncretism into one big rape camp.
    At least Hillary had the taste to find a pizzaria with a basement to avoid the inevitable FOX News-enabled conservative fucking gunfire.
    I’d move to Washington D.C. too to fake knowing anything about coastal elitist small business administration.

  1079. i guess i have one more comment on all of this. apparently i always have one more comment.
    way upthread marty talks about coal and west virginia as if it’s some kind disservice to the people of west virginia to wind down coal as a sigificant fuel source.
    one of my maternal great-grandfathers died in a mine. one of my wife’s grandfathers died way too young of emphysema after a life of digging coal out of the ground.
    i understand the pride that west virginian miners – and other traditionally blue collar communities – take in doing hard jobs willingly and well. but if you think you are doing west virginians a favor by sending another damned generation or two of their people down a damned hole in the ground to scratch out a living, i think you’re freaking nuts.
    those folks deserve better. i’m not gonna make that happen, and i make no claims about knowing what they should do instead. but they deserve better.

  1080. i guess i have one more comment on all of this. apparently i always have one more comment.
    way upthread marty talks about coal and west virginia as if it’s some kind disservice to the people of west virginia to wind down coal as a sigificant fuel source.
    one of my maternal great-grandfathers died in a mine. one of my wife’s grandfathers died way too young of emphysema after a life of digging coal out of the ground.
    i understand the pride that west virginian miners – and other traditionally blue collar communities – take in doing hard jobs willingly and well. but if you think you are doing west virginians a favor by sending another damned generation or two of their people down a damned hole in the ground to scratch out a living, i think you’re freaking nuts.
    those folks deserve better. i’m not gonna make that happen, and i make no claims about knowing what they should do instead. but they deserve better.

  1081. russell,
    It is a disservice to wind down coal usage and write off WV as another casualty of progress. Fall River still hasn’t recovered from the mills closing. It isn’t the reality, it’s the complete lack of empathy that defines the elite. Facts, studies, data, all are used as shields to hide from the human trade off, to allow “us” to justify “your” hardship.

  1082. russell,
    It is a disservice to wind down coal usage and write off WV as another casualty of progress. Fall River still hasn’t recovered from the mills closing. It isn’t the reality, it’s the complete lack of empathy that defines the elite. Facts, studies, data, all are used as shields to hide from the human trade off, to allow “us” to justify “your” hardship.

  1083. trump’s secretary of commerce is wilbur ross. check out wilbur ross’ history vis a vis coal mining in WV. then come tell me about the complete lack of empathy of the “elites”.

  1084. trump’s secretary of commerce is wilbur ross. check out wilbur ross’ history vis a vis coal mining in WV. then come tell me about the complete lack of empathy of the “elites”.

  1085. to follow up – coal’s going away because it’s no longer the most economic source of fuel. just like the fall river mills went away because fall river was no longer the most economic place to run a mill. or salem, or beverly, or lynn, or lowell, or lawrence, or pittsfield, or holyoke, or any of 100 other new england mill towns.
    if you want to tell me that folks who come at this stuff from a technocratic point of view are not always in touch with the tangible reality of regular folks’ lived experience, i will not push back very hard. but at least they’re trying to get their heads around a solution. not a band-aid, a solution.
    in contrast, trump and the (R)’s in general promise them a loaf and give them a stone. they promise them a fish and give them a snake.
    Here’s the latest from the Carrier plant that Trump “saved” last year.
    I’ll take a pointy-headed do-gooder, however out of touch, over a fucking liar any day.

  1086. to follow up – coal’s going away because it’s no longer the most economic source of fuel. just like the fall river mills went away because fall river was no longer the most economic place to run a mill. or salem, or beverly, or lynn, or lowell, or lawrence, or pittsfield, or holyoke, or any of 100 other new england mill towns.
    if you want to tell me that folks who come at this stuff from a technocratic point of view are not always in touch with the tangible reality of regular folks’ lived experience, i will not push back very hard. but at least they’re trying to get their heads around a solution. not a band-aid, a solution.
    in contrast, trump and the (R)’s in general promise them a loaf and give them a stone. they promise them a fish and give them a snake.
    Here’s the latest from the Carrier plant that Trump “saved” last year.
    I’ll take a pointy-headed do-gooder, however out of touch, over a fucking liar any day.

  1089. Facts, studies, data, all are used as shields to hide from the human trade off, to allow “us” to justify “your” hardship.
    As opposed to “wishful thinking, fantasy, fraud, and faith-based griftery”, I guess so. That must be my ‘elitism’ speaking, because I always find ‘facts, studies, data’ to be very useful for actually solving problems, instead of just bitching about how someone is holding you down.
    YMMV.

  1090. Facts, studies, data, all are used as shields to hide from the human trade off, to allow “us” to justify “your” hardship.
    As opposed to “wishful thinking, fantasy, fraud, and faith-based griftery”, I guess so. That must be my ‘elitism’ speaking, because I always find ‘facts, studies, data’ to be very useful for actually solving problems, instead of just bitching about how someone is holding you down.
    YMMV.

  1091. trump’s secretary of commerce is wilbur ross. check out wilbur ross’ history vis a vis coal mining in WV. then come tell me about the complete lack of empathy of the “elites”.
    But Trump’s cabinet, overwhelmingly, ARE elites. Not to mention that Trump himself is part of the elite . . . or at least an elite wannabe. Far more than that “elitist” from Illinois (aka “fly-over country”), Obama.

  1092. trump’s secretary of commerce is wilbur ross. check out wilbur ross’ history vis a vis coal mining in WV. then come tell me about the complete lack of empathy of the “elites”.
    But Trump’s cabinet, overwhelmingly, ARE elites. Not to mention that Trump himself is part of the elite . . . or at least an elite wannabe. Far more than that “elitist” from Illinois (aka “fly-over country”), Obama.

  1093. I’ll take a pointy-headed do-gooder, however out of touch, over a fucking liar any day.
    Lying is being taken to a whole new level. Propagandists sympathetic to Putin write a memo discrediting the FBI, classify it, give it to the FBI, then demand its release as an official document.
    Things are getting scarier by the minute, but the dupes remain persuaded that it’s all good.

  1094. I’ll take a pointy-headed do-gooder, however out of touch, over a fucking liar any day.
    Lying is being taken to a whole new level. Propagandists sympathetic to Putin write a memo discrediting the FBI, classify it, give it to the FBI, then demand its release as an official document.
    Things are getting scarier by the minute, but the dupes remain persuaded that it’s all good.

  1095. Marty, since I was the person who brought up the coal miners and Trump’s promises in the first place, I just want to say that I agree with every word of what russell says above, particularly his 10.48 p.m.
    I should in all fairness admit that I have argued much as you do when I was opposing cold-blooded advocates of our austerity economics, who seemed to demonstrate with great expertise that austerity is absolutely necessary to improve our economy and thus benefit “everybody” in the long term, but owned up to not knowing a single person who has suffered, or is going to suffer, from any of the e.g. benefit cuts. But I am comforted by the fact that equal numbers of well-qualifid experts, with equal numbers of relevant facts at their disposal, disagree, and propose other (perhaps Keynsian) solutions which will not disproportionately penalise the poor and vulnerable. Does this remind you of any of the arguments we have had here about the Republican plans to improve the economy, and your certainty that those plans will eventually help the middle class and not just billionaires? How come you are so prepared, in that example, to tolerate the human trade off, to allow “us” to justify “your” hardship.

  1096. Marty, since I was the person who brought up the coal miners and Trump’s promises in the first place, I just want to say that I agree with every word of what russell says above, particularly his 10.48 p.m.
    I should in all fairness admit that I have argued much as you do when I was opposing cold-blooded advocates of our austerity economics, who seemed to demonstrate with great expertise that austerity is absolutely necessary to improve our economy and thus benefit “everybody” in the long term, but owned up to not knowing a single person who has suffered, or is going to suffer, from any of the e.g. benefit cuts. But I am comforted by the fact that equal numbers of well-qualifid experts, with equal numbers of relevant facts at their disposal, disagree, and propose other (perhaps Keynsian) solutions which will not disproportionately penalise the poor and vulnerable. Does this remind you of any of the arguments we have had here about the Republican plans to improve the economy, and your certainty that those plans will eventually help the middle class and not just billionaires? How come you are so prepared, in that example, to tolerate the human trade off, to allow “us” to justify “your” hardship.

  1097. More on Mr Roma
    If I had the money, I’d like to buy all of the property abutting Mr Roma’s joint. I’d open a half-way house and rehab facility for homeless drug addicts and drunks. The rehab program would be a work-based protocol involving the raising of hogs.
    Kind of a cross between Dropkick Murphy’s place and Wavy Gravy’s Hog Farm.
    With skeet shooting and thrash metal band practice as recreational pastimes.
    No direct harm would be done to Mr Roma.

  1098. More on Mr Roma
    If I had the money, I’d like to buy all of the property abutting Mr Roma’s joint. I’d open a half-way house and rehab facility for homeless drug addicts and drunks. The rehab program would be a work-based protocol involving the raising of hogs.
    Kind of a cross between Dropkick Murphy’s place and Wavy Gravy’s Hog Farm.
    With skeet shooting and thrash metal band practice as recreational pastimes.
    No direct harm would be done to Mr Roma.

  1099. write a memo
    my representative puts out weekly push-poll emails. this week’s was about “the memo” and “FISA abuses”.
    my reply to his email was a link to the House vote tally, which showed that he had voted to continue FISA as-is, and had voted against all amendments that would limit potential FISA abuses.
    it’s theater. and the rubes love them some theater.

  1100. write a memo
    my representative puts out weekly push-poll emails. this week’s was about “the memo” and “FISA abuses”.
    my reply to his email was a link to the House vote tally, which showed that he had voted to continue FISA as-is, and had voted against all amendments that would limit potential FISA abuses.
    it’s theater. and the rubes love them some theater.

  1103. @russell: Send me a prospectus, I’m looking for good investments!
    But — Roma’s property is in Pigeon Cove. They ain’t gonna put up with that sh!t any more than they’re gonna put up with Mr. Roma’s helicopters.

  1104. @russell: Send me a prospectus, I’m looking for good investments!
    But — Roma’s property is in Pigeon Cove. They ain’t gonna put up with that sh!t any more than they’re gonna put up with Mr. Roma’s helicopters.

  1113. …the coastal elites … believe that they are superior, morally and ethically, thus having the right to decide how everyone else lives…
    Two questions there: the first is what things should the federal government interfere in, the second is when they do interfere how should decisions be made.
    The second part ought to be easy: decisions should be made by democratically election politicians following the recommendations of experts. All the USA needs for that is fair elections, which it should try, and politicians who recognize the limits of their competence, which unfortunately only the competent ones do.
    The first is harder. I think the federal government should interfere in environmental issues which cross state or national, boundaries, to uphold civil and voting rights, to facilitate interstate commerce, and to protect citizens from gun-wielding murderers. That’s not an exhaustive list.
    Marty apparently thinks the federal government should interfere to protect failing industries from international competition, albeit at the cost of increasing prices for everyone, to increase transfers from democrat to republican-voting states, and he could tell us what else. Partly because those sorts of interference are not favoured by smart people who live on the cost.

  1114. …the coastal elites … believe that they are superior, morally and ethically, thus having the right to decide how everyone else lives…
    Two questions there: the first is what things should the federal government interfere in, the second is when they do interfere how should decisions be made.
    The second part ought to be easy: decisions should be made by democratically election politicians following the recommendations of experts. All the USA needs for that is fair elections, which it should try, and politicians who recognize the limits of their competence, which unfortunately only the competent ones do.
    The first is harder. I think the federal government should interfere in environmental issues which cross state or national, boundaries, to uphold civil and voting rights, to facilitate interstate commerce, and to protect citizens from gun-wielding murderers. That’s not an exhaustive list.
    Marty apparently thinks the federal government should interfere to protect failing industries from international competition, albeit at the cost of increasing prices for everyone, to increase transfers from democrat to republican-voting states, and he could tell us what else. Partly because those sorts of interference are not favoured by smart people who live on the cost.

  1115. Cocaine (or something similar). Put in baby formula, and then sold with the slogan: “Babies cry for it”. Withdrawal will do that to you….

  1116. Cocaine (or something similar). Put in baby formula, and then sold with the slogan: “Babies cry for it”. Withdrawal will do that to you….

  1117. Pro Bono,
    It’s interesting that Marty says “coastal elites” and you reply in terms of “the federal government”. I’m not disagreeing with you, mind. It’s a fair bet that Marty and other complainers about “the coastal elites” associate the two.
    I suspect, though, that their complaint — to the extent it’s not mere inchoate petulance — extends to other “coastal elite” institutions. The major mass media outlets are concentrated on the East Coast. The mass entertainment industry is heavily based on the West Coast. Both influence “the culture” in ways that the “white working class” in “fly-over country” has been known to resent.
    And surely the major money-changers in the temple that is America are both “elite” and “coastal”. Their influence over the lives of Real Murkins is both vast and pernicious. The only force that can restrain their depredations, unfortunately, is the federal government, but don’t tell the complainers that. They’d rather have their grievance.
    –TP

  1118. Pro Bono,
    It’s interesting that Marty says “coastal elites” and you reply in terms of “the federal government”. I’m not disagreeing with you, mind. It’s a fair bet that Marty and other complainers about “the coastal elites” associate the two.
    I suspect, though, that their complaint — to the extent it’s not mere inchoate petulance — extends to other “coastal elite” institutions. The major mass media outlets are concentrated on the East Coast. The mass entertainment industry is heavily based on the West Coast. Both influence “the culture” in ways that the “white working class” in “fly-over country” has been known to resent.
    And surely the major money-changers in the temple that is America are both “elite” and “coastal”. Their influence over the lives of Real Murkins is both vast and pernicious. The only force that can restrain their depredations, unfortunately, is the federal government, but don’t tell the complainers that. They’d rather have their grievance.
    –TP

  1119. the music industry’s in nashville. guys who grew up in california put on cowboy hats and sing about their good old country homes.
    so, there’s that.
    the feds are constitutionally authorized to regulate any commerce that crosses state boundaries. if corps don’t want the feds in their lives, they can limit their activities to one state. problem solved.

  1120. the music industry’s in nashville. guys who grew up in california put on cowboy hats and sing about their good old country homes.
    so, there’s that.
    the feds are constitutionally authorized to regulate any commerce that crosses state boundaries. if corps don’t want the feds in their lives, they can limit their activities to one state. problem solved.

  1121. if corps don’t want the feds in their lives, they can limit their activities to one state. problem solved.
    Well…
    “The Filburn decision supported the president’s policy, holding that the Constitution allowed the federal government to regulate economic activity that was only indirectly related to interstate commerce.”
    Wickard v. Filburn

  1122. if corps don’t want the feds in their lives, they can limit their activities to one state. problem solved.
    Well…
    “The Filburn decision supported the president’s policy, holding that the Constitution allowed the federal government to regulate economic activity that was only indirectly related to interstate commerce.”
    Wickard v. Filburn

  1127. The ghost of Brett Bellmore wafts through…he used to cite Wickard on a regular basis. I appreciate the fact that CharlesWT manages it without the sneering. (Not being snarky.)
    Having had it brought to my attention so often, I bit the bullet some years ago and actually read the Wickard decision. (Several times. But not for the same reason I read “The Sparrow” several times.)
    It was, IMHO, badly written and fairly opaque to this layperson, a good degree more so (on both counts) than some other court decisions I’ve read. IIRC, though, Filburn was participating in a Federal crop program of some sort out of which he got subsidies, and by my interpretation what he wanted was to have his cake and eat it too, in short, to get the benefits of the program without the constraints it imposed.
    It was frustrating that the decision (again, in my lay reading) never addressed or even named the question of whether he could have raised as much wheat as he wanted if 1) he did use it all on his own farm; and 2) he stayed out of the Federal program. (And I’m piecing this together from recollections that are maybe eight years old. The Con Law book I was reading from was borrowed…I doubt I kept my notes…)
    I know nothing about the later citing of the case, but everything I could find online, including the Wikipedia article, seems to have been written by someone with a grievance about Federal overreach. So…I’m the tiniest tad skeptical about whether, as BB used to say, the Federal government is likely to step in and tell me I can’t have a vegie garden.

  1128. The ghost of Brett Bellmore wafts through…he used to cite Wickard on a regular basis. I appreciate the fact that CharlesWT manages it without the sneering. (Not being snarky.)
    Having had it brought to my attention so often, I bit the bullet some years ago and actually read the Wickard decision. (Several times. But not for the same reason I read “The Sparrow” several times.)
    It was, IMHO, badly written and fairly opaque to this layperson, a good degree more so (on both counts) than some other court decisions I’ve read. IIRC, though, Filburn was participating in a Federal crop program of some sort out of which he got subsidies, and by my interpretation what he wanted was to have his cake and eat it too, in short, to get the benefits of the program without the constraints it imposed.
    It was frustrating that the decision (again, in my lay reading) never addressed or even named the question of whether he could have raised as much wheat as he wanted if 1) he did use it all on his own farm; and 2) he stayed out of the Federal program. (And I’m piecing this together from recollections that are maybe eight years old. The Con Law book I was reading from was borrowed…I doubt I kept my notes…)
    I know nothing about the later citing of the case, but everything I could find online, including the Wikipedia article, seems to have been written by someone with a grievance about Federal overreach. So…I’m the tiniest tad skeptical about whether, as BB used to say, the Federal government is likely to step in and tell me I can’t have a vegie garden.

  1129. So…I’m the tiniest tad skeptical about whether, as BB used to say, the Federal government is likely to step in and tell me I can’t have a vegie garden.
    Local officials are more likely to be the ones to come after gardens.

  1130. So…I’m the tiniest tad skeptical about whether, as BB used to say, the Federal government is likely to step in and tell me I can’t have a vegie garden.
    Local officials are more likely to be the ones to come after gardens.

  1131. JanieM-
    I think those who are concerned with federal government overreach* have a point from the perspective of the extreme reluctance of SCOTUS to limit application of the commerce clause.
    I think it’s fair to say that until United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995) (because, guns), there was a steady string of cases that deferred to “commerce” being whatever Congress said it was.
    There are multiple cases dealing with agricultural products, so I honestly think that it is not crazy to say that SCOTUS would not save you if the feds decided to regulate your veggie garden. Politically I doubt it wold happen, but I would not count on the courts to stop it.
    * I identify, register and vote Dem, but I have these concerns.

  1132. JanieM-
    I think those who are concerned with federal government overreach* have a point from the perspective of the extreme reluctance of SCOTUS to limit application of the commerce clause.
    I think it’s fair to say that until United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995) (because, guns), there was a steady string of cases that deferred to “commerce” being whatever Congress said it was.
    There are multiple cases dealing with agricultural products, so I honestly think that it is not crazy to say that SCOTUS would not save you if the feds decided to regulate your veggie garden. Politically I doubt it wold happen, but I would not count on the courts to stop it.
    * I identify, register and vote Dem, but I have these concerns.

  1133. personally, i’d say let filburn grow whatever he wants on his own land to feed his own livestock.
    that said, at the time the utter horror show of the depression was still fresh in everyone’s mind, and federal intervention in markets for the greater good may have been less controversial than it is now.
    i’d also guess that the “business interests” supporting filburn in all of this had agendas broader than feeding the horses.
    and, there was a war on.
    probably no simple, clear answer that is right for all times and places. that’s why we keep arguing about this stuff.
    i have friends in tradtional medicine and permaculture farming communities who worry about stuff like this all the time. with cause.
    all of that said, it ain’t 1942 and we were talking about modern corps, not roscoe filburn.

  1134. personally, i’d say let filburn grow whatever he wants on his own land to feed his own livestock.
    that said, at the time the utter horror show of the depression was still fresh in everyone’s mind, and federal intervention in markets for the greater good may have been less controversial than it is now.
    i’d also guess that the “business interests” supporting filburn in all of this had agendas broader than feeding the horses.
    and, there was a war on.
    probably no simple, clear answer that is right for all times and places. that’s why we keep arguing about this stuff.
    i have friends in tradtional medicine and permaculture farming communities who worry about stuff like this all the time. with cause.
    all of that said, it ain’t 1942 and we were talking about modern corps, not roscoe filburn.

  1135. “probably no simple, clear answer that is right for all times and places. that’s why we keep arguing about this stuff.”
    I totally agree.
    I just have a general preference for local control whenever that can be justified and the commerce clause is a threat to that regardless of which party is in control at the federal level.
    To talk about liberal coastal elites wanted to tell everyone else how to live their lives implies that conservatives have a great record of restraint. That has not been my experience.
    “Small gov” pubs have been running purple Florida for decades through a combination of gerrymandering and Dem incompetence, and have completely abandoned any pretense of local control. Miami and Orlando have struggled to enact progressive policies due to overarching control from Tallahassee.

  1136. “probably no simple, clear answer that is right for all times and places. that’s why we keep arguing about this stuff.”
    I totally agree.
    I just have a general preference for local control whenever that can be justified and the commerce clause is a threat to that regardless of which party is in control at the federal level.
    To talk about liberal coastal elites wanted to tell everyone else how to live their lives implies that conservatives have a great record of restraint. That has not been my experience.
    “Small gov” pubs have been running purple Florida for decades through a combination of gerrymandering and Dem incompetence, and have completely abandoned any pretense of local control. Miami and Orlando have struggled to enact progressive policies due to overarching control from Tallahassee.

  1137. ….everything I could find online, including the Wikipedia article, seems to have been written by someone with a grievance about Federal overreach.
    try looking here.
    and here.
    The internets are a big place!

  1138. ….everything I could find online, including the Wikipedia article, seems to have been written by someone with a grievance about Federal overreach.
    try looking here.
    and here.
    The internets are a big place!

  1139. from bobbyp’s second link:
    It is hardly lack of due process for the Government to regulate that which it subsidizes.
    i find this hard to argue with. can’t have your cake and eat it too, roscoe.
    you could argue, in turn, that the feds ought not subsidize wheat in the first place.
    then again, everybody likes to eat.
    i find the case of southwest airlines interesting. for their first few years of operation, they flew only to cities in TX. or, mostly-ish only cities in TX.
    they used this to successfully fight federal regulations on the use of love field, back when that was replaced by DFW as the main dallas-area airport.
    they were certainly participating in a market that involved interstate commerce. they certainly were purchasers of goods and services – airplanes, jet fuel – that were provided by an interstate market.
    but they only sold their services within TX, and so were exempt.
    i’m fine with that, and i would also not be at all bothered had the decision gone the other way.
    as a practical matter, it’s kind of hard to think of commerce of any scale nowadays that does not cross state lines. so the issue seems like kind of an edge case, to me.

  1140. from bobbyp’s second link:
    It is hardly lack of due process for the Government to regulate that which it subsidizes.
    i find this hard to argue with. can’t have your cake and eat it too, roscoe.
    you could argue, in turn, that the feds ought not subsidize wheat in the first place.
    then again, everybody likes to eat.
    i find the case of southwest airlines interesting. for their first few years of operation, they flew only to cities in TX. or, mostly-ish only cities in TX.
    they used this to successfully fight federal regulations on the use of love field, back when that was replaced by DFW as the main dallas-area airport.
    they were certainly participating in a market that involved interstate commerce. they certainly were purchasers of goods and services – airplanes, jet fuel – that were provided by an interstate market.
    but they only sold their services within TX, and so were exempt.
    i’m fine with that, and i would also not be at all bothered had the decision gone the other way.
    as a practical matter, it’s kind of hard to think of commerce of any scale nowadays that does not cross state lines. so the issue seems like kind of an edge case, to me.

  1143. “Commerce” has expanded its reach across state (and national) borders FAR beyond what existed in 1789.
    Yet the rule was written in 1789, and I hear that we need to hew to that Original Intent, since the other option is to dive into Relative Moralism, Squishy Pinkoism, and other such nefarious Isms.
    Hypocrisy is always an option, but don’t expect to avoid being called out on it and roundly and justifiably mocked.

  1144. “Commerce” has expanded its reach across state (and national) borders FAR beyond what existed in 1789.
    Yet the rule was written in 1789, and I hear that we need to hew to that Original Intent, since the other option is to dive into Relative Moralism, Squishy Pinkoism, and other such nefarious Isms.
    Hypocrisy is always an option, but don’t expect to avoid being called out on it and roundly and justifiably mocked.

  1145. To talk about liberal coastal elites wanted to tell everyone else how to live their lives implies that conservatives have a great record of restraint. That has not been my experience.
    Well, all government would like to treat citizens as children.
    Conservatives don’t mind a little rough and tumble on the playground as long there’s no hanky-panky in the bushes and no one’s lunch money gets stolen.
    Liberals don’t mind a little hanky-panky in the bushes as long as everyone plays nice and shares their lunch money. Even with those who spent theirs on candy on the way to school.

  1146. To talk about liberal coastal elites wanted to tell everyone else how to live their lives implies that conservatives have a great record of restraint. That has not been my experience.
    Well, all government would like to treat citizens as children.
    Conservatives don’t mind a little rough and tumble on the playground as long there’s no hanky-panky in the bushes and no one’s lunch money gets stolen.
    Liberals don’t mind a little hanky-panky in the bushes as long as everyone plays nice and shares their lunch money. Even with those who spent theirs on candy on the way to school.

  1149. There’s something to be said for the Conservative world as described by CharlesWT and Marty.
    In the actual world, purportedly Conservative governments have no problem with vast federal transfers, so long as they’re to corporations and states which support them.
    They’re also strongly in favour of extending IP rights to help the big kids steal the little kids’ lunch money.

  1150. There’s something to be said for the Conservative world as described by CharlesWT and Marty.
    In the actual world, purportedly Conservative governments have no problem with vast federal transfers, so long as they’re to corporations and states which support them.
    They’re also strongly in favour of extending IP rights to help the big kids steal the little kids’ lunch money.

  1151. I’d love to live in “conservative world” as described by CharlesWT and Marty.
    Everyone would just go their way, living their lives. Nobody would bug anyone else, everyone would just get along. Nothing anyone did would ever intrude on or interfere with anything that anyone else ever did.
    Take me there right now.

  1152. I’d love to live in “conservative world” as described by CharlesWT and Marty.
    Everyone would just go their way, living their lives. Nobody would bug anyone else, everyone would just get along. Nothing anyone did would ever intrude on or interfere with anything that anyone else ever did.
    Take me there right now.

  1155. i find the case of southwest airlines interesting. for their first few years of operation, they flew only to cities in TX. or, mostly-ish only cities in TX.
    they used this to successfully fight federal regulations on the use of love field, back when that was replaced by DFW as the main dallas-area airport.
    A similar case was Pacific Southwest Airlines, back in the days when airfares were regulated (set) by a Federal agency. Because PSA flew only within California, they got regulated by a state agency instead. And therefore it was possible to fly between San Francisco and Los Angeles for a fraction of the cost to fly the shorter distance between, for example, New York and Washington.
    What got really silly was that from San Francisco it cost several times as much to fly to Reno as to Los Angeles — and that’s less than a quarter the distance. But across a state line.

  1156. i find the case of southwest airlines interesting. for their first few years of operation, they flew only to cities in TX. or, mostly-ish only cities in TX.
    they used this to successfully fight federal regulations on the use of love field, back when that was replaced by DFW as the main dallas-area airport.
    A similar case was Pacific Southwest Airlines, back in the days when airfares were regulated (set) by a Federal agency. Because PSA flew only within California, they got regulated by a state agency instead. And therefore it was possible to fly between San Francisco and Los Angeles for a fraction of the cost to fly the shorter distance between, for example, New York and Washington.
    What got really silly was that from San Francisco it cost several times as much to fly to Reno as to Los Angeles — and that’s less than a quarter the distance. But across a state line.

  1157. “and no one’s lunch money gets stolen.”
    I guess that works if you limit it to law and order issues and exclude transfers via kleptocracy.
    I typed this without refreshing the page … I could have just co-signed PB’s comment.

  1158. “and no one’s lunch money gets stolen.”
    I guess that works if you limit it to law and order issues and exclude transfers via kleptocracy.
    I typed this without refreshing the page … I could have just co-signed PB’s comment.

  1159. The Civil Aeronautics Board spent much of its time stamping out illegally low ticket prices. Not being able to compete on price, airlines had to compete on services like skimpy crew uniforms.

  1160. The Civil Aeronautics Board spent much of its time stamping out illegally low ticket prices. Not being able to compete on price, airlines had to compete on services like skimpy crew uniforms.

  1163. think of what they saved in fabric costs!!
    skinnier crew in skimpier outfits means less fuel required to fly them all around all day long.
    it just makes sense.

  1164. think of what they saved in fabric costs!!
    skinnier crew in skimpier outfits means less fuel required to fly them all around all day long.
    it just makes sense.

  1167. They’re also strongly in favour of extending IP (read all kinds of) rights to help the big kids steal the little kids’ lunch money.
    fixed.

  1168. They’re also strongly in favour of extending IP (read all kinds of) rights to help the big kids steal the little kids’ lunch money.
    fixed.

  1169. ExtremismStrongly held opinions in the defense of justice and human decency is a virtue.
    The full throated defense of the New Deal state is not a vice.

  1170. ExtremismStrongly held opinions in the defense of justice and human decency is a virtue.
    The full throated defense of the New Deal state is not a vice.

  1175. The darkness of fascist putin/mp/nra conservatism falls over Eastern Europe.
    heh…well I guess those folks really want a revanchist unified Germany. Way to go.

  1176. The darkness of fascist putin/mp/nra conservatism falls over Eastern Europe.
    heh…well I guess those folks really want a revanchist unified Germany. Way to go.

  1177. bobbyp: The full throated defense of the New Deal state is not a vice.
    Alas, it is also not a habit of most Democratic politicians.
    And we know why: Democratic politicians keep imagining that they need the votes of golfers and “reasonable conservatives” before they can stand up for such self-evident propositions as:
    1) Retired people should not live in poverty;
    2) Old people should not die of medical neglect;
    3) Schoolkids should not have to worry about getting shot;
    4) Black people should not have to fear the police;
    5) Civil servants should not have to fear political calumny;
    6) None of us should have to fear accidental nuclear war;
    7) Americans who became Americans as involuntarily as if they had been born in the US should not be in the power of racist fuckwads, not even tax-cutting racist fuckwads.
    When Democratic politicians finally recognize that neither the McKinneys nor the Martys nor even the CharlesWTs are worth appeasing, we will get down to the fundamental question of what The American People really support.
    –TP

  1178. bobbyp: The full throated defense of the New Deal state is not a vice.
    Alas, it is also not a habit of most Democratic politicians.
    And we know why: Democratic politicians keep imagining that they need the votes of golfers and “reasonable conservatives” before they can stand up for such self-evident propositions as:
    1) Retired people should not live in poverty;
    2) Old people should not die of medical neglect;
    3) Schoolkids should not have to worry about getting shot;
    4) Black people should not have to fear the police;
    5) Civil servants should not have to fear political calumny;
    6) None of us should have to fear accidental nuclear war;
    7) Americans who became Americans as involuntarily as if they had been born in the US should not be in the power of racist fuckwads, not even tax-cutting racist fuckwads.
    When Democratic politicians finally recognize that neither the McKinneys nor the Martys nor even the CharlesWTs are worth appeasing, we will get down to the fundamental question of what The American People really support.
    –TP

  1183. Thanks, TP. But I have to confess I am a golfer. Just like the Dreamers, it’s not my fault my folks chose a house across the street from a municipal course. I blame a deficient environment.
    As to Dem politicians, primary the bad ones. As for conservatives/libertarians….we do not need their votes. We more of our voters, and they are out there.
    “Don’t mourn. Organize.”

  1184. Thanks, TP. But I have to confess I am a golfer. Just like the Dreamers, it’s not my fault my folks chose a house across the street from a municipal course. I blame a deficient environment.
    As to Dem politicians, primary the bad ones. As for conservatives/libertarians….we do not need their votes. We more of our voters, and they are out there.
    “Don’t mourn. Organize.”

  1185. I agree with TP’s enumeration of good things to stand for. I disagree that Democrats don’t stand for them.
    There are a few Democrats who need to be elected in red/purple states, and they’re unreliable. But name the names of Democrats who haven’t stood for those values (and then weigh the political consequences of those folks). We kicked out a lot of blue dogs, and lost a lot of seats.
    Wherever we can, we need to stand strong for our values, get out the vote of people who care about those values, and do whatever is possible in places where it isn’t so easy.
    People who bash Democrats for not being left enough need to name names, and discuss those Democrats, and their constituents, and what will happen if we lose them.

  1186. I agree with TP’s enumeration of good things to stand for. I disagree that Democrats don’t stand for them.
    There are a few Democrats who need to be elected in red/purple states, and they’re unreliable. But name the names of Democrats who haven’t stood for those values (and then weigh the political consequences of those folks). We kicked out a lot of blue dogs, and lost a lot of seats.
    Wherever we can, we need to stand strong for our values, get out the vote of people who care about those values, and do whatever is possible in places where it isn’t so easy.
    People who bash Democrats for not being left enough need to name names, and discuss those Democrats, and their constituents, and what will happen if we lose them.

  1187. And just another thing: Democrats in Congress haven’t given anything away to Trump. Bash Republicans. If anyone has a beef against a Democrat currently in office, check out his/her constituents and evaluate options. Then talk about how bad they are betraying the New Deal.

  1188. And just another thing: Democrats in Congress haven’t given anything away to Trump. Bash Republicans. If anyone has a beef against a Democrat currently in office, check out his/her constituents and evaluate options. Then talk about how bad they are betraying the New Deal.

  1189. The issues surrounding the Nunes intelligence memo (that he apparently made up) and the forced departure of Andrew McCabe are the next giant step toward irreversible autocracy. Not sure why we’re talking about golf (which, incidentally, is really bad for the environment, but I’m willing to discuss that issue way in the future).
    We should actually be brainstorming about what to do. What is everyone doing? I’ve been doing fairly one by one advocacy, and general community do-gooding – which really seems insufficient. “The Resistance” is a real thing, but I feel that it’s kind of anemic. Let’s discuss action.

  1190. The issues surrounding the Nunes intelligence memo (that he apparently made up) and the forced departure of Andrew McCabe are the next giant step toward irreversible autocracy. Not sure why we’re talking about golf (which, incidentally, is really bad for the environment, but I’m willing to discuss that issue way in the future).
    We should actually be brainstorming about what to do. What is everyone doing? I’ve been doing fairly one by one advocacy, and general community do-gooding – which really seems insufficient. “The Resistance” is a real thing, but I feel that it’s kind of anemic. Let’s discuss action.

  1195. the nunes memo is going to be about discrediting rosenstein. replace rosenstein with someone favorable to trump, and the mueller investigation is basically neutered.
    were living in camp runamuck.
    as far as what to do, the answer is throw (R)’s the hell out of congress. in large numbers.

  1196. the nunes memo is going to be about discrediting rosenstein. replace rosenstein with someone favorable to trump, and the mueller investigation is basically neutered.
    were living in camp runamuck.
    as far as what to do, the answer is throw (R)’s the hell out of congress. in large numbers.

  1197. “What are we willing to wear?”
    Something as inconspicuous as possible. Show no emotion. It’s a dead giveaway to the worldwide vermin conservative movement. You might be mistaken for one of those liberal human beings with feelings that the lethal deadpan rationalists find tiresome, politically correct, and ultimately expendable.
    A better question would be “What are we willing to carry?”
    And certainly don’t speak of any plans for resistance on the internet or social media.
    The NSA is listening and reporting directly to mp. The FBI and the CIA will soon be purged of remaining conscientious conservatives and replaced with apparachiks versed in one function…. licking the space between mp’s testicles and his anus.
    How bad is it? Ron Rosenstein is a member of the Federalist Society. The ruthless mp crew is maligning and removing a member of the Federalist Society, as right wing an organization as it gets in a normal political setting in pigfuck America, from government.
    So, who are the mp people exactly? They’ll off anyone.
    You think this autocratic juggernaut is not going to escalate from here, and with savage violence.
    Trust no law enforcement, none of their fucking captured courts, or any government institution.
    Elections? The Reichstag fire, perhaps in the form of nuclear mushroom clouds over the Korean peninsula, is on its way to postpone those until the danger, all of it domestic, to the filthy subhuman conservative movement is neutralized and vanquished.
    America is over.

  1198. “What are we willing to wear?”
    Something as inconspicuous as possible. Show no emotion. It’s a dead giveaway to the worldwide vermin conservative movement. You might be mistaken for one of those liberal human beings with feelings that the lethal deadpan rationalists find tiresome, politically correct, and ultimately expendable.
    A better question would be “What are we willing to carry?”
    And certainly don’t speak of any plans for resistance on the internet or social media.
    The NSA is listening and reporting directly to mp. The FBI and the CIA will soon be purged of remaining conscientious conservatives and replaced with apparachiks versed in one function…. licking the space between mp’s testicles and his anus.
    How bad is it? Ron Rosenstein is a member of the Federalist Society. The ruthless mp crew is maligning and removing a member of the Federalist Society, as right wing an organization as it gets in a normal political setting in pigfuck America, from government.
    So, who are the mp people exactly? They’ll off anyone.
    You think this autocratic juggernaut is not going to escalate from here, and with savage violence.
    Trust no law enforcement, none of their fucking captured courts, or any government institution.
    Elections? The Reichstag fire, perhaps in the form of nuclear mushroom clouds over the Korean peninsula, is on its way to postpone those until the danger, all of it domestic, to the filthy subhuman conservative movement is neutralized and vanquished.
    America is over.

  1199. 1) Retired people should not live in poverty;
    2) Old people should not die of medical neglect;
    Just a note, Tony et al., that if we are serious about those, we need to raise Social Security payments to the point where they, by themselves, are adequate to do this — since some will be unable (not merely unwilling) to save adequately. And increase contributions sufficiently to fund that. Ditto Medicare.
    Both of which are NOT really FDR legacies.

  1200. 1) Retired people should not live in poverty;
    2) Old people should not die of medical neglect;
    Just a note, Tony et al., that if we are serious about those, we need to raise Social Security payments to the point where they, by themselves, are adequate to do this — since some will be unable (not merely unwilling) to save adequately. And increase contributions sufficiently to fund that. Ditto Medicare.
    Both of which are NOT really FDR legacies.

  1203. 1) Retired people should not live in poverty;
    Retired people, as a group, are now the wealthiest cohort in the country. Not the case when Social Security was set up.
    …since some will be unable (not merely unwilling) to save adequately.
    Regressive payroll taxes don’t help any.

  1204. 1) Retired people should not live in poverty;
    Retired people, as a group, are now the wealthiest cohort in the country. Not the case when Social Security was set up.
    …since some will be unable (not merely unwilling) to save adequately.
    Regressive payroll taxes don’t help any.

  1205. Regressive payroll taxes don’t help any.
    It seems pretty obvious that the cap on earnings which are taxed for Social Security should go.

  1206. Regressive payroll taxes don’t help any.
    It seems pretty obvious that the cap on earnings which are taxed for Social Security should go.

  1207. And increase contributions sufficiently to fund that.
    we’ve been paying into social security at a rate greater than outlays for 35 years.

  1208. And increase contributions sufficiently to fund that.
    we’ve been paying into social security at a rate greater than outlays for 35 years.

  1209. President Trump is seeking to parlay his first State of the Union address on Tuesday into cash for his reelection campaign by offering supporters a chance to see their name flashed on the screen during a broadcast of the speech.
    if you really give a lot you get to announce the POTUS’ entrance, like darlene shiley in masterpiece theater

  1210. President Trump is seeking to parlay his first State of the Union address on Tuesday into cash for his reelection campaign by offering supporters a chance to see their name flashed on the screen during a broadcast of the speech.
    if you really give a lot you get to announce the POTUS’ entrance, like darlene shiley in masterpiece theater

  1211. at least Trump isn’t out there continually demeaning the Presidency like Obama was!
    nope. Trump is every “conservative’s” model President (as far as anyone can tell by their continued support of him).

  1212. at least Trump isn’t out there continually demeaning the Presidency like Obama was!
    nope. Trump is every “conservative’s” model President (as far as anyone can tell by their continued support of him).

  1213. CharlesWT: Retired people, as a group, are now the wealthiest cohort in the country.
    Which age cohort SHOULD be the wealthiest?
    Teenagers?
    Forty-somethings?
    Would people start getting poorer at 50 in Libertopia?
    CharlesWT: Not the case when Social Security was set up.
    Social Security was not set up just to annoy libertarians or conservatives. It was set up because the old way didn’t work. It has been maintained because people have found it more convenient to pay the taxes than to take the old folks in to live with them.
    wj: It seems pretty obvious that the cap on earnings which are taxed for Social Security should go.
    Let’s get something straight: is the SSA a part of the government? or a stand-alone insurance company that must finance itself?
    If it’s a part of the government then the “entitlement” is indeed a piece of government spending, just like the Air Force budget. But in that case it is silly, if not disingenuous, to harp on which tax dollars pay for which service. The separate SS tax is just a scam to reduce the progressivity of income taxation.
    If it’s a stand-alone insurance company — which has been the biggest lender to the federal government all my working life — then the “entitlement” is an insurance claim, not a dirty word.
    I know, I know: Charles will point out that SS is not voluntary; wj will point out that either way SS is going broke “in the long run”. These points have to be coming from opposite perspectives on the nature of the SSA, so I can’t wait to see them argue it out:)
    –TP

  1214. CharlesWT: Retired people, as a group, are now the wealthiest cohort in the country.
    Which age cohort SHOULD be the wealthiest?
    Teenagers?
    Forty-somethings?
    Would people start getting poorer at 50 in Libertopia?
    CharlesWT: Not the case when Social Security was set up.
    Social Security was not set up just to annoy libertarians or conservatives. It was set up because the old way didn’t work. It has been maintained because people have found it more convenient to pay the taxes than to take the old folks in to live with them.
    wj: It seems pretty obvious that the cap on earnings which are taxed for Social Security should go.
    Let’s get something straight: is the SSA a part of the government? or a stand-alone insurance company that must finance itself?
    If it’s a part of the government then the “entitlement” is indeed a piece of government spending, just like the Air Force budget. But in that case it is silly, if not disingenuous, to harp on which tax dollars pay for which service. The separate SS tax is just a scam to reduce the progressivity of income taxation.
    If it’s a stand-alone insurance company — which has been the biggest lender to the federal government all my working life — then the “entitlement” is an insurance claim, not a dirty word.
    I know, I know: Charles will point out that SS is not voluntary; wj will point out that either way SS is going broke “in the long run”. These points have to be coming from opposite perspectives on the nature of the SSA, so I can’t wait to see them argue it out:)
    –TP

  1215. Entitlement is an insurance claim. When you get a bill that says it pays for SS and Medicare then that’s what it’s for.
    Congressio al conniving does not change that.
    Entitlement is not what those are, they are bills due.

  1216. Entitlement is an insurance claim. When you get a bill that says it pays for SS and Medicare then that’s what it’s for.
    Congressio al conniving does not change that.
    Entitlement is not what those are, they are bills due.

  1217. they are bills due
    yep.
    we paid it in, SS lent it to the feds, they spent it, and now they don’t want to pay it back.

  1218. they are bills due
    yep.
    we paid it in, SS lent it to the feds, they spent it, and now they don’t want to pay it back.

  1219. …, and now they don’t want to pay it back.
    We’re getting closer to the day that they can’t pay it back.
    The Federal Reserve has painted itself into a corner. If it doesn’t raise interest rates, the economy could overheat and go bust again. If they do raise interest rates, cost of servicing the federal debt will skyrocket.

  1220. …, and now they don’t want to pay it back.
    We’re getting closer to the day that they can’t pay it back.
    The Federal Reserve has painted itself into a corner. If it doesn’t raise interest rates, the economy could overheat and go bust again. If they do raise interest rates, cost of servicing the federal debt will skyrocket.

  1225. Speaking of “not the whole story,” this:
    https://www.wired.com/story/release-the-memo-nunes-fisa-702/

    The confusion over FISA has allowed Nunes and fellow Republicans to tell the public that intelligence officials abuse the law, while at the same time moving to expand its powers. Nunes, as well as Gaetz and King, all voted in favor of expanding surveillance authorities authorized under Section 702 of FISA earlier this month. They cast their votes while at the same time telling the public that FISA is terribly abused by the FBI and the Justice Department. So what’s really going on? Let’s start with Nunes’ memo.

  1226. Speaking of “not the whole story,” this:
    https://www.wired.com/story/release-the-memo-nunes-fisa-702/

    The confusion over FISA has allowed Nunes and fellow Republicans to tell the public that intelligence officials abuse the law, while at the same time moving to expand its powers. Nunes, as well as Gaetz and King, all voted in favor of expanding surveillance authorities authorized under Section 702 of FISA earlier this month. They cast their votes while at the same time telling the public that FISA is terribly abused by the FBI and the Justice Department. So what’s really going on? Let’s start with Nunes’ memo.

  1227. With regard to bobbyp‘s link, I like that Dean Baker addresses one of my objections to the more common poverty level calculations by including government non-cash benefits and cost of living differences in his calculations. He may be right that there’s not that much difference in wealth levels across different age groups.
    But that doesn’t change the fact that a lot of relatively poor young people are paying regressive payroll taxes, along with all of the other taxes, during what should be their wealth-building years. Plus a great many SS recipients likely consider the payments their vacation fund.

  1228. With regard to bobbyp‘s link, I like that Dean Baker addresses one of my objections to the more common poverty level calculations by including government non-cash benefits and cost of living differences in his calculations. He may be right that there’s not that much difference in wealth levels across different age groups.
    But that doesn’t change the fact that a lot of relatively poor young people are paying regressive payroll taxes, along with all of the other taxes, during what should be their wealth-building years. Plus a great many SS recipients likely consider the payments their vacation fund.

  1231. This future SS recipient will be using those payments to buy food and pay utilities because that’s all the income I’m going to have. Thank dog my house is paid for. Hope nothing goes wrong with it before I die.

  1232. This future SS recipient will be using those payments to buy food and pay utilities because that’s all the income I’m going to have. Thank dog my house is paid for. Hope nothing goes wrong with it before I die.

  1233. We’re getting closer to the day that they can’t pay it back.
    The Pain Caucus has been making this claim for decades, and they have been repeatedly wrong on this.
    What’s important is the the % of annual public debt payment to GNP and the direction of change of this variable.
    But pointing this out is like talking to the wind.
    The Federal Reserve has painted itself into a corner.
    At the zero bound, perhaps. See Krugman. There are, however fiscal tools that can be implimented.
    If it doesn’t raise interest rates, the economy could overheat and go bust again.
    It may. It may not. You don’t know.
    If they do raise interest rates, cost of servicing the federal debt will skyrocket.
    So will fed interest rebates to the Treasury. See also taxes, increasing them.

  1234. We’re getting closer to the day that they can’t pay it back.
    The Pain Caucus has been making this claim for decades, and they have been repeatedly wrong on this.
    What’s important is the the % of annual public debt payment to GNP and the direction of change of this variable.
    But pointing this out is like talking to the wind.
    The Federal Reserve has painted itself into a corner.
    At the zero bound, perhaps. See Krugman. There are, however fiscal tools that can be implimented.
    If it doesn’t raise interest rates, the economy could overheat and go bust again.
    It may. It may not. You don’t know.
    If they do raise interest rates, cost of servicing the federal debt will skyrocket.
    So will fed interest rebates to the Treasury. See also taxes, increasing them.

  1235. “Plus a great many SS recipients likely consider the payments their vacation fund.”
    Might be.
    But means-testing SS away from better off recipients will result in conservative and libertarian politicians, along with their media and demagogue tanks in the very next breath campaigning for further cuts to the program using videos of the majority of SS recipients, who need the program to meet day-to-day living expenses, buying the thick cut pork chops and the occasional bag of frozen shrimp at the grocery checkout counter.
    “Why do THOSE people get something for nothing when we don’t?”, the fucking Kochs will say.
    Most likely the folks doing their shopping in the videos will be black and Latino, cause that’s how the republican party rolls.
    No doubt those yelling the loudest about these freeloaders will be the poor and lower middle class white conservative retired free loaders who depend on their SS checks each month, but if the mp/republican party points at the niggers and wetbacks, the former will jump to their typical racist conclusions about THOSE people and their pathological dependencies.
    Next up will work requirements for all SS recipients, regardless of the fact that they contributed to the program all their lives.
    We’ve seen this over and over the last 40 years.
    We know how conservative bullshit works.
    Take the vacations and say thank you. Or give the money to charity.
    Or fuck off.

  1236. “Plus a great many SS recipients likely consider the payments their vacation fund.”
    Might be.
    But means-testing SS away from better off recipients will result in conservative and libertarian politicians, along with their media and demagogue tanks in the very next breath campaigning for further cuts to the program using videos of the majority of SS recipients, who need the program to meet day-to-day living expenses, buying the thick cut pork chops and the occasional bag of frozen shrimp at the grocery checkout counter.
    “Why do THOSE people get something for nothing when we don’t?”, the fucking Kochs will say.
    Most likely the folks doing their shopping in the videos will be black and Latino, cause that’s how the republican party rolls.
    No doubt those yelling the loudest about these freeloaders will be the poor and lower middle class white conservative retired free loaders who depend on their SS checks each month, but if the mp/republican party points at the niggers and wetbacks, the former will jump to their typical racist conclusions about THOSE people and their pathological dependencies.
    Next up will work requirements for all SS recipients, regardless of the fact that they contributed to the program all their lives.
    We’ve seen this over and over the last 40 years.
    We know how conservative bullshit works.
    Take the vacations and say thank you. Or give the money to charity.
    Or fuck off.

  1237. What do glibertarians want? Like most other political actors, they want it all and are willing to discard some so-called central principles to get it.
    But you know, it’s ONLY the Left and JOE STALIN who insist the ends justify the means.

  1238. What do glibertarians want? Like most other political actors, they want it all and are willing to discard some so-called central principles to get it.
    But you know, it’s ONLY the Left and JOE STALIN who insist the ends justify the means.

  1239. He, Trump is eligible for SS. Being a money-grubber, He is probably collecting. If so, it is the smallest of His offenses against decency.
    Make America Decent Again. ITMFA.
    –TP

  1240. He, Trump is eligible for SS. Being a money-grubber, He is probably collecting. If so, it is the smallest of His offenses against decency.
    Make America Decent Again. ITMFA.
    –TP

  1241. Many economists, left and right, believe that government debt higher than 90% percent of a country’s GDP becomes a significant drag on its economy. US debt has been as high as 118% in recent years.
    The US may have greater leeway due to the dollar being a reserve currency. Plus GDP isn’t a particularly good measure of an economy. But there has to be a limit somewhere.

  1242. Many economists, left and right, believe that government debt higher than 90% percent of a country’s GDP becomes a significant drag on its economy. US debt has been as high as 118% in recent years.
    The US may have greater leeway due to the dollar being a reserve currency. Plus GDP isn’t a particularly good measure of an economy. But there has to be a limit somewhere.

  1243. Charles …
    I think Japan is the canary in the coal mine w/r/t how much debt relative to GDP an advanced economy can carry. They are up to 250%
    They don’t have a reserve currency, but they do have a high private savings rate.
    How they pay this all back with a below replacement rate domestic reproduction and an extreme aversion to immigration is beyond me.
    FWIW, it’s a shame that we aren’t cutting into the budget during the current expansion. I was semi-OK with QE to the extent that it was essentially a shift from private debt to public debt, but we’re out of the woods and should be paying down that public debt now.

  1244. Charles …
    I think Japan is the canary in the coal mine w/r/t how much debt relative to GDP an advanced economy can carry. They are up to 250%
    They don’t have a reserve currency, but they do have a high private savings rate.
    How they pay this all back with a below replacement rate domestic reproduction and an extreme aversion to immigration is beyond me.
    FWIW, it’s a shame that we aren’t cutting into the budget during the current expansion. I was semi-OK with QE to the extent that it was essentially a shift from private debt to public debt, but we’re out of the woods and should be paying down that public debt now.

  1245. Overseas holdings of Japanese debt are only around 7% of the total though, so they are very different from any other economy. Not the best canary.

  1246. Overseas holdings of Japanese debt are only around 7% of the total though, so they are very different from any other economy. Not the best canary.

  1249. Many economists, left and right, believe that government debt higher than 90% percent of a country’s GDP becomes a significant drag on its economy. US debt has been as high as 118% in recent years.
    “Some people say”…always the clincher in any discussion, just ask David Brooks!
    But there has to be a limit somewhere.
    The constraints are the actual physical resources available to the economy (labor, capital equipment, natural resources, etc.), not public debt.

  1250. Many economists, left and right, believe that government debt higher than 90% percent of a country’s GDP becomes a significant drag on its economy. US debt has been as high as 118% in recent years.
    “Some people say”…always the clincher in any discussion, just ask David Brooks!
    But there has to be a limit somewhere.
    The constraints are the actual physical resources available to the economy (labor, capital equipment, natural resources, etc.), not public debt.

  1251. a lot of relatively poor young people are paying regressive payroll taxes, along with all of the other taxes, during what should be their wealth-building years.
    when I was young and relatively poor, about 35 years ago, I paid a highly regressive payroll tax in excess of what it cost to fund the at-that-time current SS payees.
    And I continued paying that same highly regressive tax, during good times and bad, right up until now, when I’m relatively old and not really poor anymore.
    The deal was that we would all pay in extra for our entire working lives, so that when the no good very bad horrible demographic bulge represented by the baby boomers hit retirement age, there’d be a surplus to draw down.
    Now, we’re drawing it down, and the folks who want to 86 the program are shrieking about how it’s paying out faster than it’s taking in.
    No shit, sherlock. That was the point of us all paying in extra for the last 35 years.
    The issue is that the money didn’t just sit in a big can in the back yard, it was lent to the federal operating budget. Who spent it, because operating budget. No worries there.
    But now nobody wants to come up with the $$$ to pay it back.
    We want tax cuts. Yay, Joe Middle Class and his family of four are gonna get $1000. This year.
    And then Joe Middle Class and his lovely bride are gonna get bugger-all when they finally retire, because creeps like Ryan are going to chisel away at SS until it’s gone.
    We made a deal, we paid in per the deal that was made. And if the (R)’s can find a way to screw all of us out of it, they will.
    McConnell doesn’t want to touch it now because 2018 mid-terms. Wait until after November.

  1252. a lot of relatively poor young people are paying regressive payroll taxes, along with all of the other taxes, during what should be their wealth-building years.
    when I was young and relatively poor, about 35 years ago, I paid a highly regressive payroll tax in excess of what it cost to fund the at-that-time current SS payees.
    And I continued paying that same highly regressive tax, during good times and bad, right up until now, when I’m relatively old and not really poor anymore.
    The deal was that we would all pay in extra for our entire working lives, so that when the no good very bad horrible demographic bulge represented by the baby boomers hit retirement age, there’d be a surplus to draw down.
    Now, we’re drawing it down, and the folks who want to 86 the program are shrieking about how it’s paying out faster than it’s taking in.
    No shit, sherlock. That was the point of us all paying in extra for the last 35 years.
    The issue is that the money didn’t just sit in a big can in the back yard, it was lent to the federal operating budget. Who spent it, because operating budget. No worries there.
    But now nobody wants to come up with the $$$ to pay it back.
    We want tax cuts. Yay, Joe Middle Class and his family of four are gonna get $1000. This year.
    And then Joe Middle Class and his lovely bride are gonna get bugger-all when they finally retire, because creeps like Ryan are going to chisel away at SS until it’s gone.
    We made a deal, we paid in per the deal that was made. And if the (R)’s can find a way to screw all of us out of it, they will.
    McConnell doesn’t want to touch it now because 2018 mid-terms. Wait until after November.

  1253. Nigel-
    Not a perfect analogy, but still illustrative.
    High domestic holdings of Japan’s public debt make it very unlikely that they will default as compared to some idiot like Trump thinking it would be a good idea to default on China’s holdings. Unfortunately the population for the traditional purchaser of Japan’s public debt is shrinking.
    At some point, Japan will need to raise interest rates to attract purchasers of that debt and I’d expect a real risk of an inflation that could devalue the savings of Japan’s large number of retirees.
    That could get ugly.
    In the end, interest rate spikes leading to excess inflation is the most likely/immediate concern for any country carrying high levels of public debt. That’s true for both the US and Japan.

  1254. Nigel-
    Not a perfect analogy, but still illustrative.
    High domestic holdings of Japan’s public debt make it very unlikely that they will default as compared to some idiot like Trump thinking it would be a good idea to default on China’s holdings. Unfortunately the population for the traditional purchaser of Japan’s public debt is shrinking.
    At some point, Japan will need to raise interest rates to attract purchasers of that debt and I’d expect a real risk of an inflation that could devalue the savings of Japan’s large number of retirees.
    That could get ugly.
    In the end, interest rate spikes leading to excess inflation is the most likely/immediate concern for any country carrying high levels of public debt. That’s true for both the US and Japan.

  1255. The whole debt/gnp ratio is simply a canard. There is no direct relationship, and it’s also important that the currency is a fiat one with a freely floating foreign exchange rate.
    Again-the important variable is the cost of servicing the debt to the size of the economy and the direction of change in that variable….if you want to be a soothsayer.
    Look at this table and divine for me the relationship as between this ratio and economic performance.
    As for Japan…they hold almost as much of our federal debt as China does…..(over a trillion)…some canary!

  1256. The whole debt/gnp ratio is simply a canard. There is no direct relationship, and it’s also important that the currency is a fiat one with a freely floating foreign exchange rate.
    Again-the important variable is the cost of servicing the debt to the size of the economy and the direction of change in that variable….if you want to be a soothsayer.
    Look at this table and divine for me the relationship as between this ratio and economic performance.
    As for Japan…they hold almost as much of our federal debt as China does…..(over a trillion)…some canary!

  1257. bobby …
    Direct relationship between what? Debt and GDP? I don’t think anyone is saying that.
    You don’t think that at some point high national debt can increase inflation?
    If inflation and interest rates go up, won’t that increase the cost of servicing the debt?

  1258. bobby …
    Direct relationship between what? Debt and GDP? I don’t think anyone is saying that.
    You don’t think that at some point high national debt can increase inflation?
    If inflation and interest rates go up, won’t that increase the cost of servicing the debt?

  1259. If inflation and interest rates go up, won’t that increase the cost of servicing the debt?
    Nominally, at least.

  1260. If inflation and interest rates go up, won’t that increase the cost of servicing the debt?
    Nominally, at least.

  1261. Direct relationship between what? Debt and GDP? I don’t think anyone is saying that.
    The claim is that “too much” debt dampens economic performance since we would have to save (reduce output) to pay down the debt.
    The other scenario is too much debt in relation to economic output will somehow create inflation…i.e., the government will sell a whole bunch of bonds for pieces of currency they can print at will and then spend.
    Correct?
    You don’t think that at some point high national debt can increase inflation?
    If true, then you should be able to tell me what “that point” is and the operational mechanism whereby the level of debt, in and of itself, directly “causes” inflation.
    Your typical debt fear monger (not necessarily you) uses a lot of hand waving and scare tactics (look at those big scary numbers!!!! Ayiee!!) to convince people that we have to reduce the public debt (usually be cutting public spending) in order to have “room” to increase it in the future when needed or to ward off the terrible inflation monster that is somehow always, and under any/all circumstances, right around the corner.
    The answer is, “It depends.”
    Simply put, the central government can either spend less or raise taxes to reduce debt levels. Either has contractionry economic effects.
    Foregoing economic output today does not “save” those real goods and services for the future. It kisses that output goodbye.
    The central bank can raise interest rates or reserve requirements to dampen lending, but such policies by themselves do not give us the ability to “spend more” at some point in the future. We can always spend whatever we decide in the future. Perhaps we would be better off letting those folks who will be living then make that decision.

  1262. Direct relationship between what? Debt and GDP? I don’t think anyone is saying that.
    The claim is that “too much” debt dampens economic performance since we would have to save (reduce output) to pay down the debt.
    The other scenario is too much debt in relation to economic output will somehow create inflation…i.e., the government will sell a whole bunch of bonds for pieces of currency they can print at will and then spend.
    Correct?
    You don’t think that at some point high national debt can increase inflation?
    If true, then you should be able to tell me what “that point” is and the operational mechanism whereby the level of debt, in and of itself, directly “causes” inflation.
    Your typical debt fear monger (not necessarily you) uses a lot of hand waving and scare tactics (look at those big scary numbers!!!! Ayiee!!) to convince people that we have to reduce the public debt (usually be cutting public spending) in order to have “room” to increase it in the future when needed or to ward off the terrible inflation monster that is somehow always, and under any/all circumstances, right around the corner.
    The answer is, “It depends.”
    Simply put, the central government can either spend less or raise taxes to reduce debt levels. Either has contractionry economic effects.
    Foregoing economic output today does not “save” those real goods and services for the future. It kisses that output goodbye.
    The central bank can raise interest rates or reserve requirements to dampen lending, but such policies by themselves do not give us the ability to “spend more” at some point in the future. We can always spend whatever we decide in the future. Perhaps we would be better off letting those folks who will be living then make that decision.

  1263. bobby-
    If I could tell you the exactly what “that point” is, I’d be in line for a Nobel Prize.
    I’m not a fear monger, but I do worry about what happens when the central bank begins to lose the ability to control inflation due to too much public debt. Retirees can get screwed in that scenario.
    I appreciate that good Keynesians want to add up their current output and play with multiplier effects and in the long run we all are dead anyway, but I have a hard time accepting left wing dismissiveness about increasing debt.

  1264. bobby-
    If I could tell you the exactly what “that point” is, I’d be in line for a Nobel Prize.
    I’m not a fear monger, but I do worry about what happens when the central bank begins to lose the ability to control inflation due to too much public debt. Retirees can get screwed in that scenario.
    I appreciate that good Keynesians want to add up their current output and play with multiplier effects and in the long run we all are dead anyway, but I have a hard time accepting left wing dismissiveness about increasing debt.

  1265. I appreciate that good Keynesians want to add up their current output and play with multiplier effects and in the long run we all are dead anyway, but I have a hard time accepting left wing dismissiveness about increasing debt.
    Although I agree with bobbyp, or with some version of his viewpoint, I don’t mind playing the “debt is bad” game as long as people are consistent about the rules. They most definitely aren’t. The Tax Cuts! people are the “drown the government” people, but are also the “let’s get rich from Halliburton’s wars” people, as well as the “infrastructure-wall-building” cash-out of that people.
    Let’s get rid of Republican scammers. The US doesn’t spend much money on its people’s welfare compared to what Republicans do when they focus on pillaging the Treasury. If we want to pretend that the US needs to watch its pennies, let’s watch the pennies get sucked out of the investment accounts of the 1%. And that’s not because I hate rich people; it’s just that they’re the ones who can afford it.
    And russell is right about Social Security. Both the history of its having been stolen, and the fact that the Rethugs are planning to end it.
    Something needs to be done about these people. Instead of philosophizing about policy, as though we still had a country where policy matters, we need to be planning to overthrow this coup.

  1266. I appreciate that good Keynesians want to add up their current output and play with multiplier effects and in the long run we all are dead anyway, but I have a hard time accepting left wing dismissiveness about increasing debt.
    Although I agree with bobbyp, or with some version of his viewpoint, I don’t mind playing the “debt is bad” game as long as people are consistent about the rules. They most definitely aren’t. The Tax Cuts! people are the “drown the government” people, but are also the “let’s get rich from Halliburton’s wars” people, as well as the “infrastructure-wall-building” cash-out of that people.
    Let’s get rid of Republican scammers. The US doesn’t spend much money on its people’s welfare compared to what Republicans do when they focus on pillaging the Treasury. If we want to pretend that the US needs to watch its pennies, let’s watch the pennies get sucked out of the investment accounts of the 1%. And that’s not because I hate rich people; it’s just that they’re the ones who can afford it.
    And russell is right about Social Security. Both the history of its having been stolen, and the fact that the Rethugs are planning to end it.
    Something needs to be done about these people. Instead of philosophizing about policy, as though we still had a country where policy matters, we need to be planning to overthrow this coup.

  1267. Many economists, left and right, believe that government debt higher than 90% percent of a country’s GDP becomes a significant drag on its economy…
    Well, many economists believed that until someone checked Reinhart and Rogoff’s calculations.

  1268. Many economists, left and right, believe that government debt higher than 90% percent of a country’s GDP becomes a significant drag on its economy…
    Well, many economists believed that until someone checked Reinhart and Rogoff’s calculations.

  1269. I’m far more concerned about where spending goes and where revenue comes from than I am about whatever debt results from one being greater than the other.

  1270. I’m far more concerned about where spending goes and where revenue comes from than I am about whatever debt results from one being greater than the other.

  1271. I’m far more concerned about where spending goes and where revenue comes from than I am about whatever debt results from one being greater than the other.
    I hope that your concerns win the day on November 6, 2018. If voters keep them in mind as they vote, and if voting is free and fair, we may prevail.
    Sadly, the era of liberal democracy (and your concerns) may be over. Fascism doesn’t really care about your concerns.

  1272. I’m far more concerned about where spending goes and where revenue comes from than I am about whatever debt results from one being greater than the other.
    I hope that your concerns win the day on November 6, 2018. If voters keep them in mind as they vote, and if voting is free and fair, we may prevail.
    Sadly, the era of liberal democracy (and your concerns) may be over. Fascism doesn’t really care about your concerns.

  1273. If I could tell you the exactly what “that point” is, I’d be in line for a Nobel Prize.
    Indeed. But I only ask for a little more in the way of backup for the assertion. A little more thought is called for here. For example, what if the government put on a big sale of Treasuries, took the money and just burned it? Would we have higher interest rates leading to an outbreak of inflation? The “left” is not dismissive of debt, we are dismissive of the rhetorical bullying based on the concept of public debt being exactly comparable to family/private debt. It is an utterly wrong frame that waves off analysis of the disposition of real resources.
    Going along with this frame also plays right into the Pain Caucus political message, and you are left with weak arguments along these lines, “Well, I agree with you for the most part, but there are differences”. No. The differences are in kind, not degree. For example, we blew off trillions in fruitless war in the ME, took on tons of debt, and got little in return. Nobody appears to have batted an eye. Being “dismissive” of debt strikes me as rather situational.
    The Left needs to utterly reject the “crushing debt” frame (see Sapient above). We need to discuss what can and should be done, not what we fear, where REAL resources go or should go, not worry about an item that can be produced at the click of a mouse by the Fed Reserve Open Market Committee.

  1274. If I could tell you the exactly what “that point” is, I’d be in line for a Nobel Prize.
    Indeed. But I only ask for a little more in the way of backup for the assertion. A little more thought is called for here. For example, what if the government put on a big sale of Treasuries, took the money and just burned it? Would we have higher interest rates leading to an outbreak of inflation? The “left” is not dismissive of debt, we are dismissive of the rhetorical bullying based on the concept of public debt being exactly comparable to family/private debt. It is an utterly wrong frame that waves off analysis of the disposition of real resources.
    Going along with this frame also plays right into the Pain Caucus political message, and you are left with weak arguments along these lines, “Well, I agree with you for the most part, but there are differences”. No. The differences are in kind, not degree. For example, we blew off trillions in fruitless war in the ME, took on tons of debt, and got little in return. Nobody appears to have batted an eye. Being “dismissive” of debt strikes me as rather situational.
    The Left needs to utterly reject the “crushing debt” frame (see Sapient above). We need to discuss what can and should be done, not what we fear, where REAL resources go or should go, not worry about an item that can be produced at the click of a mouse by the Fed Reserve Open Market Committee.

  1275. Resistance:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/02/05/your-grandma-was-a-chain-migrant
    The next Democratic President, should thieving republicans with help from foreign shithole dwellers not steal every future American election as well, should order the INS and Department of Justice to investigate the genealogy and immigration status of every conservative republican in the country to be sure their scum ancestors dotted every “i” and crossed every “t” as they stole into the country, bringing their filthy political habits with them.
    The records are there.
    Sic ICE on them and their children. Many of these less than human interlopers posing as real muricans are here in OUR country under false pretenses and they and their forbears brought little merit to the American project, unless we count standing on other peoples’ necks the kit in the kaboodle.
    All of them are somebody else’s infiltrating babies issued from the wombs of foreign undesirables who talked funny well into their overstayed welcome and broke our laws.
    I would also make it a requirement of employment with INS and ICE that job applicants for those positions must possess a minimum of 10% Native American blood, or can trace their ancestry to the victims of the American slave trade.

  1276. Resistance:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/02/05/your-grandma-was-a-chain-migrant
    The next Democratic President, should thieving republicans with help from foreign shithole dwellers not steal every future American election as well, should order the INS and Department of Justice to investigate the genealogy and immigration status of every conservative republican in the country to be sure their scum ancestors dotted every “i” and crossed every “t” as they stole into the country, bringing their filthy political habits with them.
    The records are there.
    Sic ICE on them and their children. Many of these less than human interlopers posing as real muricans are here in OUR country under false pretenses and they and their forbears brought little merit to the American project, unless we count standing on other peoples’ necks the kit in the kaboodle.
    All of them are somebody else’s infiltrating babies issued from the wombs of foreign undesirables who talked funny well into their overstayed welcome and broke our laws.
    I would also make it a requirement of employment with INS and ICE that job applicants for those positions must possess a minimum of 10% Native American blood, or can trace their ancestry to the victims of the American slave trade.

  1277. Americans love inflation when it is their personal assets or income that are inflated beyond all reason, ie equities, house prices, CEO compensation.
    It’s when some schmuck, the other guy, gets a $2 an hour wage increase that the inflation jitters set in and talk of the punch bowl being taken away begins in earnest.
    A falling dollar can cause inflation. Wars and open-ended military spending can cause inflation.
    Who has been loving those two things lately?
    Jobs! We need jobs! Hold on, the last guy or gal who was unemployed just found a job. And they want a wage increase.
    Who are the rest of us going to beat on now?

  1278. Americans love inflation when it is their personal assets or income that are inflated beyond all reason, ie equities, house prices, CEO compensation.
    It’s when some schmuck, the other guy, gets a $2 an hour wage increase that the inflation jitters set in and talk of the punch bowl being taken away begins in earnest.
    A falling dollar can cause inflation. Wars and open-ended military spending can cause inflation.
    Who has been loving those two things lately?
    Jobs! We need jobs! Hold on, the last guy or gal who was unemployed just found a job. And they want a wage increase.
    Who are the rest of us going to beat on now?

  1279. Republicans express utter contempt for education and expertise, both in the sciences (hoaxers) and the humanities (useless and unproductive), and yet they want to limit immigration to those who are educated and possess expertise.

  1280. Republicans express utter contempt for education and expertise, both in the sciences (hoaxers) and the humanities (useless and unproductive), and yet they want to limit immigration to those who are educated and possess expertise.

  1281. Republicans express utter contempt for education and expertise, both in the sciences (hoaxers) and the humanities (useless and unproductive), and yet they want to limit immigration to those who are educated and possess expertise.
    So perfect. How can I Countme-a-Demon how perfect.

  1282. Republicans express utter contempt for education and expertise, both in the sciences (hoaxers) and the humanities (useless and unproductive), and yet they want to limit immigration to those who are educated and possess expertise.
    So perfect. How can I Countme-a-Demon how perfect.

  1283. bobbyp-
    “For example, what if the government put on a big sale of Treasuries, took the money and just burned it? Would we have higher interest rates leading to an outbreak of inflation?”
    Were these treasuries purchased with US dollars or foreign currency? If purchased with dollars, then it seems that you’d have a short term reduction in M2 which would, all else constant, raise interest rates and then cause lower demand and lower inflation.
    “The “left” is not dismissive of debt, we are dismissive of the rhetorical bullying based on the concept of public debt being exactly comparable to family/private debt. It is an utterly wrong frame that waves off analysis of the disposition of real resources.”
    Some on the left are dismissive. I never compared public debt to private debt. I’ve been talking about inflationary effects.
    “Nobody appears to have batted an eye.”
    I certainly did.

  1284. bobbyp-
    “For example, what if the government put on a big sale of Treasuries, took the money and just burned it? Would we have higher interest rates leading to an outbreak of inflation?”
    Were these treasuries purchased with US dollars or foreign currency? If purchased with dollars, then it seems that you’d have a short term reduction in M2 which would, all else constant, raise interest rates and then cause lower demand and lower inflation.
    “The “left” is not dismissive of debt, we are dismissive of the rhetorical bullying based on the concept of public debt being exactly comparable to family/private debt. It is an utterly wrong frame that waves off analysis of the disposition of real resources.”
    Some on the left are dismissive. I never compared public debt to private debt. I’ve been talking about inflationary effects.
    “Nobody appears to have batted an eye.”
    I certainly did.

  1285. I’ve been talking about inflationary effects.
    You have repeatedly tied the total amount of public debt to economic output and asserted that “beyond some point” when D/output >”something” there would be some terrible effect (i.e., inflation).
    Recent history, you know-the numbers, argues against this hypothesis as explanatory under current circumstances.
    I certainly did.
    Your concern appears to have been expended in vain.
    Worse, when the Dem message becomes one of “we can manage the debt problem better than the other guys,” it becomes a recipe for abject political defeat.
    Tell me what good that does.

  1286. I’ve been talking about inflationary effects.
    You have repeatedly tied the total amount of public debt to economic output and asserted that “beyond some point” when D/output >”something” there would be some terrible effect (i.e., inflation).
    Recent history, you know-the numbers, argues against this hypothesis as explanatory under current circumstances.
    I certainly did.
    Your concern appears to have been expended in vain.
    Worse, when the Dem message becomes one of “we can manage the debt problem better than the other guys,” it becomes a recipe for abject political defeat.
    Tell me what good that does.

  1287. People who think the federal budget deficit and not the national trade deficit is what hurts a country are barking up the wrong tree.
    The Nation is a people, not a government. When We The People import more stuff than We export, We are trading with Other People, not any Government. Economists call it a current-account deficit, but there’s no actual deficit involved: the Other People get full value for the stuff they send Us, by taking the difference out in capital ownership.
    If we MUST engage in homely analogies, a Nation with an annual trade deficit is a household that’s taking out a bigger home equity loan every year.
    –TP

  1288. People who think the federal budget deficit and not the national trade deficit is what hurts a country are barking up the wrong tree.
    The Nation is a people, not a government. When We The People import more stuff than We export, We are trading with Other People, not any Government. Economists call it a current-account deficit, but there’s no actual deficit involved: the Other People get full value for the stuff they send Us, by taking the difference out in capital ownership.
    If we MUST engage in homely analogies, a Nation with an annual trade deficit is a household that’s taking out a bigger home equity loan every year.
    –TP

  1289. Late to this, and tired, and out of the loop (I deliberately avoided the SOU address and the memo and all), but I wanted to comment on this:
    What got really silly was that from San Francisco it cost several times as much to fly to Reno as to Los Angeles — and that’s less than a quarter the distance. But across a state line.
    In an alternate (antipodean) universe, back in the 1980s it was sometimes cheaper to fly from Canberra to Sydney (150 miles) via New Zealand – 5000 miles or so – than direct, because the former was international, and hence open to competition, and the latter was domestic, and subject to the duopoly of two (non-)competing Australian airlines. In theory the two competed, but they flew to the same places every day at about the same time (roughly ten minutes apart) and charged exactly the same exorbitant prices.

  1290. Late to this, and tired, and out of the loop (I deliberately avoided the SOU address and the memo and all), but I wanted to comment on this:
    What got really silly was that from San Francisco it cost several times as much to fly to Reno as to Los Angeles — and that’s less than a quarter the distance. But across a state line.
    In an alternate (antipodean) universe, back in the 1980s it was sometimes cheaper to fly from Canberra to Sydney (150 miles) via New Zealand – 5000 miles or so – than direct, because the former was international, and hence open to competition, and the latter was domestic, and subject to the duopoly of two (non-)competing Australian airlines. In theory the two competed, but they flew to the same places every day at about the same time (roughly ten minutes apart) and charged exactly the same exorbitant prices.

  1291. I don’t want to bust PdM here and y’all know I don’t do economics, so take this with the requisite salts, but when you mention Japan, Krugman had this column
    https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/31/opinion/paul-krugman-apologizing-to-japan.html
    Admittedly, the apology allowed Krugman to make criticism of Western policies that seem to be increasing the divide between the haves and have nots.
    Don’t mean to spank anyone with a Forbes article (unless you want me to) but there was this
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mwakatabe/2014/11/13/should-paul-krugman-apologize-to-japan-2/#34b9da0215ab
    A bigger issue though, is that Mr. Krugman has somehow underestimated human misery and suffering of the Japanese people. This comes down to the core of his “apology”. He thought the Japanese workers have experienced less human misery than their Western counterparts, so in that sense Japan managed the crisis better than the Western countries–a point that he has repeated it on other occasions too.
    But in fact suicide rate stayed high for more than 10 years in Japan. It started from an abrupt jump in 1997-1998 from below 20 per 100,000 people to higher than 30 per 100,000 people (the actual number was 30,000), when the unemployment rate increased from 3.5% to 4.7%. It was only in recent years that suicide rate started to come down because of rising employment rates. The Japanese may not have protested loudly, but as the high suicide rate suggested, their suffering has been tremendous.
    There are some interesting points about suicide stats in Japan, but there are more family suicides like this one that are painful to read about, so Krugman may be underestimating the level of human suffering these decades of no growth have brought.
    But (and if I’m making the wrong assumption, Pollo de Muerte can correct me here) when people who are not living in Japan and perhaps might not have any Japan experience take to citing Japan as an example of the problems, it seems more like finding a convenient blunt instrument to make an argument with. This is not to claim that Japan is the be all end all, and there are a lot of things that are pushed under the carpet, but honestly, if the US were more like Japan, I’d feel much better about the future.

  1292. I don’t want to bust PdM here and y’all know I don’t do economics, so take this with the requisite salts, but when you mention Japan, Krugman had this column
    https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/31/opinion/paul-krugman-apologizing-to-japan.html
    Admittedly, the apology allowed Krugman to make criticism of Western policies that seem to be increasing the divide between the haves and have nots.
    Don’t mean to spank anyone with a Forbes article (unless you want me to) but there was this
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mwakatabe/2014/11/13/should-paul-krugman-apologize-to-japan-2/#34b9da0215ab
    A bigger issue though, is that Mr. Krugman has somehow underestimated human misery and suffering of the Japanese people. This comes down to the core of his “apology”. He thought the Japanese workers have experienced less human misery than their Western counterparts, so in that sense Japan managed the crisis better than the Western countries–a point that he has repeated it on other occasions too.
    But in fact suicide rate stayed high for more than 10 years in Japan. It started from an abrupt jump in 1997-1998 from below 20 per 100,000 people to higher than 30 per 100,000 people (the actual number was 30,000), when the unemployment rate increased from 3.5% to 4.7%. It was only in recent years that suicide rate started to come down because of rising employment rates. The Japanese may not have protested loudly, but as the high suicide rate suggested, their suffering has been tremendous.
    There are some interesting points about suicide stats in Japan, but there are more family suicides like this one that are painful to read about, so Krugman may be underestimating the level of human suffering these decades of no growth have brought.
    But (and if I’m making the wrong assumption, Pollo de Muerte can correct me here) when people who are not living in Japan and perhaps might not have any Japan experience take to citing Japan as an example of the problems, it seems more like finding a convenient blunt instrument to make an argument with. This is not to claim that Japan is the be all end all, and there are a lot of things that are pushed under the carpet, but honestly, if the US were more like Japan, I’d feel much better about the future.

  1293. lj-
    I think some folks here are looking for a target to bludgeon. I’m not some austerity focused budget hawk. I worry about deficits in terms of “at some point” they will lead to an inability of central banks to control inflation and will erode the wealth of retirees which are an ever increasing percentage of most western economies. So when you talk about “finding a convenient blunt instrument to make an argument with”, you have a point, but not the point I think you intended.
    I pointed to Japan as an example of a limit on debt. Japan is carrying 2.5 times the debt/GDP ratio of the US and the market has not pushed back very much. If you use a glass is half full analysis, that means that the US has lots of headroom to add more debt.
    I don’t mean to claim I’m an expert on Japanese economy, but Japanese insurance markets were the focus of my grad school work. I was steeped in that area back in early 90s, so I may be influenced by that emerging bubble economy time when we all were talking about a lost decade instead of lost generations.

  1294. lj-
    I think some folks here are looking for a target to bludgeon. I’m not some austerity focused budget hawk. I worry about deficits in terms of “at some point” they will lead to an inability of central banks to control inflation and will erode the wealth of retirees which are an ever increasing percentage of most western economies. So when you talk about “finding a convenient blunt instrument to make an argument with”, you have a point, but not the point I think you intended.
    I pointed to Japan as an example of a limit on debt. Japan is carrying 2.5 times the debt/GDP ratio of the US and the market has not pushed back very much. If you use a glass is half full analysis, that means that the US has lots of headroom to add more debt.
    I don’t mean to claim I’m an expert on Japanese economy, but Japanese insurance markets were the focus of my grad school work. I was steeped in that area back in early 90s, so I may be influenced by that emerging bubble economy time when we all were talking about a lost decade instead of lost generations.

  1295. bobbyp-
    “You have repeatedly tied the total amount of public debt to economic output”
    I don’t think I have; that’s one potential factor leading to inflation, but not the only one.
    “and asserted that “beyond some point” when D/output >”something” there would be some terrible effect (i.e., inflation).”
    I don’t think I posited that formulation. I’m only saying that demand for public debt (even public debt denominated in a reserve currency) is not infinite. At some point, interest rates will start to go up as the market determines that the level of debt is unsustainable and the market forecasts either lower output or increased money supply growth to service the debt. Either lower output or increased money supply growth can lead to excess inflation.
    “Recent history, you know-the numbers, argues against this hypothesis as explanatory under current circumstances.”
    I never argued otherwise. I start off by saying that Japan illustrates that we could carry much higher debt levels.
    If you want to talk economics that’s fine. I have a pet peeve when it comes to misstating my positions.
    I think we can’t ignore deficits. At some point the debt will bite us in the ass and lead to inflation which is horrible for retirees. You might agree but feel that point is so far off that we don’t need to worry about it now. That’s not much of a difference between our positions.
    Or you might feel that it will never matter and we can just keep printing money. On that we disagree and it seems we won’t persuade each other otherwise.

  1296. bobbyp-
    “You have repeatedly tied the total amount of public debt to economic output”
    I don’t think I have; that’s one potential factor leading to inflation, but not the only one.
    “and asserted that “beyond some point” when D/output >”something” there would be some terrible effect (i.e., inflation).”
    I don’t think I posited that formulation. I’m only saying that demand for public debt (even public debt denominated in a reserve currency) is not infinite. At some point, interest rates will start to go up as the market determines that the level of debt is unsustainable and the market forecasts either lower output or increased money supply growth to service the debt. Either lower output or increased money supply growth can lead to excess inflation.
    “Recent history, you know-the numbers, argues against this hypothesis as explanatory under current circumstances.”
    I never argued otherwise. I start off by saying that Japan illustrates that we could carry much higher debt levels.
    If you want to talk economics that’s fine. I have a pet peeve when it comes to misstating my positions.
    I think we can’t ignore deficits. At some point the debt will bite us in the ass and lead to inflation which is horrible for retirees. You might agree but feel that point is so far off that we don’t need to worry about it now. That’s not much of a difference between our positions.
    Or you might feel that it will never matter and we can just keep printing money. On that we disagree and it seems we won’t persuade each other otherwise.

  1297. Tony P-
    Are you saying that there is no relationship between public budget deficits and trade deficits? I’m not saying that you are, but I’m curious as to your answer.
    On trade deficits, I think there is a peril related to trade when a country has a global reserve currency. Economics 101 would say that trade deficits would lead to a weaker currency and raise the price imports and lower the price of exports eventually working to fix the trade imbalance. Due to the fact that global demand for dollars and treasuries has not waned regardless of the twin deficits, the US dollar has been resistant to the normal laws of gravity w/r/t a floating currency (I think that’s true even accounting for currency manipulation).
    Trump is dabbling with tariffs, but I don’t know if he will risk true protectionist policies. I think it’s just window dressing to appease the alt right and his blue collar workers.
    What would you support in terms of measures to address trade imbalances?

  1298. Tony P-
    Are you saying that there is no relationship between public budget deficits and trade deficits? I’m not saying that you are, but I’m curious as to your answer.
    On trade deficits, I think there is a peril related to trade when a country has a global reserve currency. Economics 101 would say that trade deficits would lead to a weaker currency and raise the price imports and lower the price of exports eventually working to fix the trade imbalance. Due to the fact that global demand for dollars and treasuries has not waned regardless of the twin deficits, the US dollar has been resistant to the normal laws of gravity w/r/t a floating currency (I think that’s true even accounting for currency manipulation).
    Trump is dabbling with tariffs, but I don’t know if he will risk true protectionist policies. I think it’s just window dressing to appease the alt right and his blue collar workers.
    What would you support in terms of measures to address trade imbalances?

  1299. Notwithstanding having dissed Rogoff, I broadly agree with Pdm about the general undesirability of growing government debt. It’s ok to increase the debt to meet an immediate need, but foolish to do it as a routine part of the budget. Because whatever the level of debt which is unsustainable, you will get to it in the end.
    Trade deficits are not quite the same thing. A country should a long-term strategy for how it’s going to pay its way in the world. Protectionism should not be part of it.

  1300. Notwithstanding having dissed Rogoff, I broadly agree with Pdm about the general undesirability of growing government debt. It’s ok to increase the debt to meet an immediate need, but foolish to do it as a routine part of the budget. Because whatever the level of debt which is unsustainable, you will get to it in the end.
    Trade deficits are not quite the same thing. A country should a long-term strategy for how it’s going to pay its way in the world. Protectionism should not be part of it.

  1301. Trump is dabbling with tariffs, but I don’t know if he will risk true protectionist policies.
    What you are really saying is that you don’t think that Trump’s ultra wealthy advisors will let him go there. It’s not like he has a clue (or the least interest) when it comes to the actual impact of doing something. If he is persuaded that his fans want it, he’ll do it.

  1302. Trump is dabbling with tariffs, but I don’t know if he will risk true protectionist policies.
    What you are really saying is that you don’t think that Trump’s ultra wealthy advisors will let him go there. It’s not like he has a clue (or the least interest) when it comes to the actual impact of doing something. If he is persuaded that his fans want it, he’ll do it.

  1303. That’s sort of what I’m saying, wj.
    Trump has an eye and an ear for optics and messaging w/r/t his blue collar base.
    He won’t actually go against the real moneyed interests IMO.

  1304. That’s sort of what I’m saying, wj.
    Trump has an eye and an ear for optics and messaging w/r/t his blue collar base.
    He won’t actually go against the real moneyed interests IMO.

  1305. PB-
    “Trade deficits are not quite the same thing. A country should a long-term strategy for how it’s going to pay its way in the world. Protectionism should not be part of it.”
    Do you have a strategy in mind?

  1306. PB-
    “Trade deficits are not quite the same thing. A country should a long-term strategy for how it’s going to pay its way in the world. Protectionism should not be part of it.”
    Do you have a strategy in mind?

  1307. Or you might feel that it will never matter and we can just keep printing money.
    What I would say, and I imagine bobbyp would, too, is that if you print money to obtain real resources to the point of scarcity, you will cause inflation. The focus should be on the availability of resources, not money.
    Further, I would say that spending should create value. Let’s imagine the money we spent to kill people and destroy things on the other side of the world was spent on expanding broadband service, early-childhood education, environmental restoration, mass transit, scientific research and such.
    I would gladly take on debt to do those things, because they are the things that will actually pay for themselves in the long run. Instead, we juice the stock market and reduce services to make our people sicker and less educated.
    MAGA? We will not be able to compete in the global market for very long with the kind of debt-reduction proposals being put forth these days. But the oligarchs will still be able to fly off to some other place that isn’t a shithole if things get bad enough.

  1308. Or you might feel that it will never matter and we can just keep printing money.
    What I would say, and I imagine bobbyp would, too, is that if you print money to obtain real resources to the point of scarcity, you will cause inflation. The focus should be on the availability of resources, not money.
    Further, I would say that spending should create value. Let’s imagine the money we spent to kill people and destroy things on the other side of the world was spent on expanding broadband service, early-childhood education, environmental restoration, mass transit, scientific research and such.
    I would gladly take on debt to do those things, because they are the things that will actually pay for themselves in the long run. Instead, we juice the stock market and reduce services to make our people sicker and less educated.
    MAGA? We will not be able to compete in the global market for very long with the kind of debt-reduction proposals being put forth these days. But the oligarchs will still be able to fly off to some other place that isn’t a shithole if things get bad enough.

  1309. Since I mentioned blowing things up and killing people, I should add to the list of things more worthy of spending on foreign aid and diplomacy. Yeah…

  1310. Since I mentioned blowing things up and killing people, I should add to the list of things more worthy of spending on foreign aid and diplomacy. Yeah…

  1311. hsh-
    You won’t get any argument from me on the stupid things we spend money on (wars, juicing the market).
    Can you give me an example of the resource constraint that you have in mind?

  1312. hsh-
    You won’t get any argument from me on the stupid things we spend money on (wars, juicing the market).
    Can you give me an example of the resource constraint that you have in mind?

  1313. bobbyp: What do glibertarians want? Like most other political actors, they want it all and are willing to discard some so-called central principles to get it.
    A counter argument:
    “In sum, Chait is wrong to tar libertarians, as a group, for supposedly being thoroughgoing supporters of Trump. But it would also be wrong for libertarians to become complacent about either Trump, or the more general threat to liberty posed by the kind of nationalism he exemplifies.”
    No, Libertarians Have Not Thrown in With Trump: Jonathan Chait’s accusations to the contrary ignore a great deal of the actual libertarian reaction to the president’s policies. But some libertarians are indeed too soft on both Trump and right-wing nationalism generally.

  1314. bobbyp: What do glibertarians want? Like most other political actors, they want it all and are willing to discard some so-called central principles to get it.
    A counter argument:
    “In sum, Chait is wrong to tar libertarians, as a group, for supposedly being thoroughgoing supporters of Trump. But it would also be wrong for libertarians to become complacent about either Trump, or the more general threat to liberty posed by the kind of nationalism he exemplifies.”
    No, Libertarians Have Not Thrown in With Trump: Jonathan Chait’s accusations to the contrary ignore a great deal of the actual libertarian reaction to the president’s policies. But some libertarians are indeed too soft on both Trump and right-wing nationalism generally.

  1315. Too many libertarians get focused on economic freedom and are willing to look the other way on police state issues, human rights issues, corporatist issues, etc.
    As someone who basically starts from a libertarian position as a rebuttable presumption, I’ve given up calling myself one out of embarrassment.

  1316. Too many libertarians get focused on economic freedom and are willing to look the other way on police state issues, human rights issues, corporatist issues, etc.
    As someone who basically starts from a libertarian position as a rebuttable presumption, I’ve given up calling myself one out of embarrassment.

  1317. Can you give me an example of the resource constraint that you have in mind?
    I don’t know. What if the federal government was buying gasoline as fast as it could be refined? It’s hard to come up with one thing that’s realistic and that would affect the economy broadly enough to cause generalized inflation.
    Think of the sort of rationing that happened during WWII. What would have happened to prices had that not been as well implemented? We were still on the gold standard then, but still.

  1318. Can you give me an example of the resource constraint that you have in mind?
    I don’t know. What if the federal government was buying gasoline as fast as it could be refined? It’s hard to come up with one thing that’s realistic and that would affect the economy broadly enough to cause generalized inflation.
    Think of the sort of rationing that happened during WWII. What would have happened to prices had that not been as well implemented? We were still on the gold standard then, but still.

  1325. hsh-
    Since I didn’t take you as a gold standard nut, I was wondering.
    I think you’ve described my issue with relying on a resource constraint.
    I keep backing into the need to (at some point) exercise fiscal restraint because in a service economy which enjoys having a reserve currency at its disposal, I don’t think we’ll see the tipping point for runaway inflation until it’s in the rearview mirror.

  1326. hsh-
    Since I didn’t take you as a gold standard nut, I was wondering.
    I think you’ve described my issue with relying on a resource constraint.
    I keep backing into the need to (at some point) exercise fiscal restraint because in a service economy which enjoys having a reserve currency at its disposal, I don’t think we’ll see the tipping point for runaway inflation until it’s in the rearview mirror.

  1327. Pdm: Are you saying that there is no relationship between public budget deficits and trade deficits?
    I think I am. The US trade deficit with China, for example and as far as I know, does not come from the US government buying more stuff from the Chinese government than vice versa. WalMart is not (yet) the US government. Its Chinese suppliers may be government-owned for all I know, but that’s not my concern.
    A couple of important notes:
    1) The trade deficit vis a vis any particular country is not the point. It’s the whole world that matters.
    2) Currency exchange rates figure into trade deficits, but money is the bookkeeping device, not the underlying commodity.
    Pdm: What would you support in terms of measures to address trade imbalances?
    Not protectionism, for sure. And, even though I consider inter-national trade deficits more important than intra-national government deficits, I don’t consider trade deficits per se to be necessarily worth addressing.
    To me, a Nation (again: The People, not The Government) increases its economic well-being by becoming more “productive” whether or not it trades with other Nations. To the extent that education (broadly speaking) increases “productivity”, I don’t care if it increases “competitiveness”. Same for infrastructure.
    BTW: consider what it means for a Nation to run a trade surplus with the entire rest of the world. It means The Nation lives less well (currently, as measured by consumption of goods and services) than its “productivity” would justify. So I’m not advocating for a net trade surplus, either.
    –TP

  1328. Pdm: Are you saying that there is no relationship between public budget deficits and trade deficits?
    I think I am. The US trade deficit with China, for example and as far as I know, does not come from the US government buying more stuff from the Chinese government than vice versa. WalMart is not (yet) the US government. Its Chinese suppliers may be government-owned for all I know, but that’s not my concern.
    A couple of important notes:
    1) The trade deficit vis a vis any particular country is not the point. It’s the whole world that matters.
    2) Currency exchange rates figure into trade deficits, but money is the bookkeeping device, not the underlying commodity.
    Pdm: What would you support in terms of measures to address trade imbalances?
    Not protectionism, for sure. And, even though I consider inter-national trade deficits more important than intra-national government deficits, I don’t consider trade deficits per se to be necessarily worth addressing.
    To me, a Nation (again: The People, not The Government) increases its economic well-being by becoming more “productive” whether or not it trades with other Nations. To the extent that education (broadly speaking) increases “productivity”, I don’t care if it increases “competitiveness”. Same for infrastructure.
    BTW: consider what it means for a Nation to run a trade surplus with the entire rest of the world. It means The Nation lives less well (currently, as measured by consumption of goods and services) than its “productivity” would justify. So I’m not advocating for a net trade surplus, either.
    –TP

  1331. Pdm: Are you saying that there is no relationship between public budget deficits and trade deficits?
    I think I am. The US trade deficit with China, for example and as far as I know, does not come from the US government buying more stuff from the Chinese government than vice versa.
    The budget deficit/surplus over a given period must be equal to net private saving/investment plus the trade deficit/surplus over that same period.
    G – T) = (S – I) – NX
    which is
    (State sector balance) = (Private sector balance) – External sector balance
    where G is government spending, T is taxes, S is savings, I is investment and NX is net exports (or X-M, where X is exports and M is imports).

  1332. Pdm: Are you saying that there is no relationship between public budget deficits and trade deficits?
    I think I am. The US trade deficit with China, for example and as far as I know, does not come from the US government buying more stuff from the Chinese government than vice versa.
    The budget deficit/surplus over a given period must be equal to net private saving/investment plus the trade deficit/surplus over that same period.
    G – T) = (S – I) – NX
    which is
    (State sector balance) = (Private sector balance) – External sector balance
    where G is government spending, T is taxes, S is savings, I is investment and NX is net exports (or X-M, where X is exports and M is imports).

  1333. Since I didn’t take you as a gold standard nut, I was wondering.
    If there is an exact opposite to a gold bug, I’m that, or at least darned close to it.
    Gold is useful for contacts in electronics. I’ll give it that.

  1334. Since I didn’t take you as a gold standard nut, I was wondering.
    If there is an exact opposite to a gold bug, I’m that, or at least darned close to it.
    Gold is useful for contacts in electronics. I’ll give it that.

  1337. I’ve been on a mailing list for years where prominent economists answer survey questions.
    Related to this discussion:
    A typical country can increase its citizens’ welfare by enacting policies that would increase its trade surplus (or decrease its trade deficit).
    http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/trade-balances
    If the US reduced its fiscal deficit, then its trade deficit would also shrink.
    http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/deficits
    Even in a world populated by two-armed economists, these two questions had lower consensus than usual.

  1338. I’ve been on a mailing list for years where prominent economists answer survey questions.
    Related to this discussion:
    A typical country can increase its citizens’ welfare by enacting policies that would increase its trade surplus (or decrease its trade deficit).
    http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/trade-balances
    If the US reduced its fiscal deficit, then its trade deficit would also shrink.
    http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/deficits
    Even in a world populated by two-armed economists, these two questions had lower consensus than usual.

  1339. What I would say, and I imagine bobbyp would, too, is that if you print money to obtain real resources to the point of scarcity, you will cause inflation. The focus should be on the availability of resources, not money.
    Exactly. Thanks, HSH.
    The concern expressed by conservatives is a political weapon (cf Peterson Institute, attacks on Social Security, Deficit Hawkery). Look at what they do when in office (Iraq War, Trump Tax Cut).
    The willingness of libruls to go along with this meme (even to say they don’t agree with conservatives, but express “concern” about this possibility that could possibly happen at some time, but we can’t say when, therefore we have to worry about it in a serious manner) is not only mostly wrong on the merits, but is simply committing political hari-kari.
    Just stop. Please.

  1340. What I would say, and I imagine bobbyp would, too, is that if you print money to obtain real resources to the point of scarcity, you will cause inflation. The focus should be on the availability of resources, not money.
    Exactly. Thanks, HSH.
    The concern expressed by conservatives is a political weapon (cf Peterson Institute, attacks on Social Security, Deficit Hawkery). Look at what they do when in office (Iraq War, Trump Tax Cut).
    The willingness of libruls to go along with this meme (even to say they don’t agree with conservatives, but express “concern” about this possibility that could possibly happen at some time, but we can’t say when, therefore we have to worry about it in a serious manner) is not only mostly wrong on the merits, but is simply committing political hari-kari.
    Just stop. Please.

  1341. A typical country can increase its citizens’ welfare by enacting policies that would increase its trade surplus (or decrease its trade deficit).
    To give them credit at least the number of “strongly agree” to this proposition was zero.
    There may be hope.

  1342. A typical country can increase its citizens’ welfare by enacting policies that would increase its trade surplus (or decrease its trade deficit).
    To give them credit at least the number of “strongly agree” to this proposition was zero.
    There may be hope.

  1353. https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/01/all-that-frightens-by-tristero.html
    To what extent are mp’s refusal to apply Congressionally approved sanctions, by nearly a unanimous vote, to Russia, and the as yet unannounced firing of Rosenstien (Mueller will be fired the same night as nuclear explosions hit North Korea) a ploy to buy Russia’s pledge to not incinerate the United States in response to our unilateral nuclear attack on North Korea and making nuclear weapons the go-to weapon in all future war theaters?
    Check your own facts, fools.

  1354. https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/01/all-that-frightens-by-tristero.html
    To what extent are mp’s refusal to apply Congressionally approved sanctions, by nearly a unanimous vote, to Russia, and the as yet unannounced firing of Rosenstien (Mueller will be fired the same night as nuclear explosions hit North Korea) a ploy to buy Russia’s pledge to not incinerate the United States in response to our unilateral nuclear attack on North Korea and making nuclear weapons the go-to weapon in all future war theaters?
    Check your own facts, fools.

  1355. PdM, thanks for your reply and I appreciate you not taking my comments too personally. I also appreciate the fact that you have some knowledge of the Japanese insurance system and aren’t just using the example of Japan in the way I described.
    As I’ve said, the economics talk goes way over my head, but when you say
    I think some folks here are looking for a target to bludgeon.
    I have to say that the way the US economy is run makes it a target-rich environment, so anytime someone says ‘wait a minute, we might turn into Japan’, I say ‘and then…?’ More about that later, if I have time. But again, thanks.

  1356. PdM, thanks for your reply and I appreciate you not taking my comments too personally. I also appreciate the fact that you have some knowledge of the Japanese insurance system and aren’t just using the example of Japan in the way I described.
    As I’ve said, the economics talk goes way over my head, but when you say
    I think some folks here are looking for a target to bludgeon.
    I have to say that the way the US economy is run makes it a target-rich environment, so anytime someone says ‘wait a minute, we might turn into Japan’, I say ‘and then…?’ More about that later, if I have time. But again, thanks.

  1357. Do you have a strategy in mind?
    I dream of a world in which wise politicians spend time thinking about how to make the country a better place in 10 or 20 years, after their retirement, rather than trying to claim credit or deflect blame for short-term fluctuations which they have no control over.

  1358. Do you have a strategy in mind?
    I dream of a world in which wise politicians spend time thinking about how to make the country a better place in 10 or 20 years, after their retirement, rather than trying to claim credit or deflect blame for short-term fluctuations which they have no control over.

  1361. Yeah, the possibility that this pack of criminally stupid morons ( this apparently includes Trumps advisors) might actually attack North Korea puts everything else in the shade. ( No nuclear winter references intended. I don’t think NK has enough to do that, even if you accept the theory.)
    If only we had a Constitution which vested the authority to attack other countries in the Congress, where there are arguably some sane people even in the Republican Party, at least on war and peace issues.

  1362. Yeah, the possibility that this pack of criminally stupid morons ( this apparently includes Trumps advisors) might actually attack North Korea puts everything else in the shade. ( No nuclear winter references intended. I don’t think NK has enough to do that, even if you accept the theory.)
    If only we had a Constitution which vested the authority to attack other countries in the Congress, where there are arguably some sane people even in the Republican Party, at least on war and peace issues.

  1363. the possibility that this pack of criminally stupid morons ( this apparently includes Trumps advisors) might actually attack North Korea puts everything else in the shade.
    If there is a ‘bloody nose’ strike (and Larison makes a strong argument that Victor Cha’s resignation and op-ed mean that it _is_ being considered), it will probably turn off Asians towards the US for the next 100 years, not because they have any great love for NK, but because it will solidify the notion that the US does not give two sh*ts about Asian lives. I’m sure if you told the circus in the WH that this would happen, they would probably count it as a plus. Idiots.

  1364. the possibility that this pack of criminally stupid morons ( this apparently includes Trumps advisors) might actually attack North Korea puts everything else in the shade.
    If there is a ‘bloody nose’ strike (and Larison makes a strong argument that Victor Cha’s resignation and op-ed mean that it _is_ being considered), it will probably turn off Asians towards the US for the next 100 years, not because they have any great love for NK, but because it will solidify the notion that the US does not give two sh*ts about Asian lives. I’m sure if you told the circus in the WH that this would happen, they would probably count it as a plus. Idiots.

  1365. I may be doing them an injustice. But I have a suspicion that the possibility of North Korea responding to a US attack be launching nuke at us is considered a plus. Because it is likely that the main target would be all those non-whites/Democrats in Hawaii. Or, at most, those illegal Hispanics/Democrats along the West Coast.
    Of course, from the missles they have demonstrated so far, North Korea should be able to hit anywhere in the US. But fact-based reasoning is rather out of favor with Trump and his boys.

  1366. I may be doing them an injustice. But I have a suspicion that the possibility of North Korea responding to a US attack be launching nuke at us is considered a plus. Because it is likely that the main target would be all those non-whites/Democrats in Hawaii. Or, at most, those illegal Hispanics/Democrats along the West Coast.
    Of course, from the missles they have demonstrated so far, North Korea should be able to hit anywhere in the US. But fact-based reasoning is rather out of favor with Trump and his boys.

  1369. In 2018 America, populated by assholes and jagoffs, you CAN make this stuff up and be believed.
    As Conalltheway stipulates, real Americans, the aforementioned assholes and jagoffs, are their own fact-checkers.
    There ARE facts. They have others.
    Maybe the Russian news media can clarify what really happened with this accident in time for the 2018 midterms.
    Regarding this specific and developing right wing meme, all I can think is “If only”, and “Why was it so poorly carried out?”

  1370. In 2018 America, populated by assholes and jagoffs, you CAN make this stuff up and be believed.
    As Conalltheway stipulates, real Americans, the aforementioned assholes and jagoffs, are their own fact-checkers.
    There ARE facts. They have others.
    Maybe the Russian news media can clarify what really happened with this accident in time for the 2018 midterms.
    Regarding this specific and developing right wing meme, all I can think is “If only”, and “Why was it so poorly carried out?”

  1371. Link to previous comment:
    https://www.salon.com/2018/01/31/alex-jones-gop-amtrak-train-crash-kamikaze-attack/
    Since left-wing media is so bereft of ruthless imagination, here’s a theory.
    Republicans are jumping ship and retiring in droves.
    Why? Maybe they see the mp writing on the wall, in fact, maybe they fear being personally implicated in the most colossal many-faceted incidence of espionage, obstruction of justice, and corruption in western political history.
    But maybe, on the other hand, they’ve done what they came to Washington D.C. to do. Bankrupt the government. Drown that baby. Cut their own personal taxes and the taxes of their corporate crime-family benefactors to such as extent that they have theirs now and fuck the country.
    The CBO is already warning Congress that tax receipts are plunging and borrowing is skyrocketing.
    The departing vermin republican murderers can now vote to NOT extend the debt ceiling with impunity as they will not face the voters again.
    mp launches nukes from submarines in the Northwest Pacific. He fires Mueller as the mushroom clouds veil his actions.
    He declares a national emergency replete with wartime rationing, which takes the form of drastic Medicaid cuts and the absolute gutting of the domestic budget, and the end of the sequester on de(of-)fense spending.
    Ryan introduces the bleeding out of Social Security and Medicare to an enthralled political base fully entertained and surfeited by reality show suffering and loss brought directly to them.
    All resistance is met with martial force from the conservative movement’s now-beloved smaller but ruthlessly autocratic gummint as they hold the corpse of the now dead baby for ransom.
    There’s plenty of available space in those private prisons Sessions was bought off to build.
    Guantanamo is now open for business with no sunsetting.
    Conservative vermin abhor a vacuum.

  1372. Link to previous comment:
    https://www.salon.com/2018/01/31/alex-jones-gop-amtrak-train-crash-kamikaze-attack/
    Since left-wing media is so bereft of ruthless imagination, here’s a theory.
    Republicans are jumping ship and retiring in droves.
    Why? Maybe they see the mp writing on the wall, in fact, maybe they fear being personally implicated in the most colossal many-faceted incidence of espionage, obstruction of justice, and corruption in western political history.
    But maybe, on the other hand, they’ve done what they came to Washington D.C. to do. Bankrupt the government. Drown that baby. Cut their own personal taxes and the taxes of their corporate crime-family benefactors to such as extent that they have theirs now and fuck the country.
    The CBO is already warning Congress that tax receipts are plunging and borrowing is skyrocketing.
    The departing vermin republican murderers can now vote to NOT extend the debt ceiling with impunity as they will not face the voters again.
    mp launches nukes from submarines in the Northwest Pacific. He fires Mueller as the mushroom clouds veil his actions.
    He declares a national emergency replete with wartime rationing, which takes the form of drastic Medicaid cuts and the absolute gutting of the domestic budget, and the end of the sequester on de(of-)fense spending.
    Ryan introduces the bleeding out of Social Security and Medicare to an enthralled political base fully entertained and surfeited by reality show suffering and loss brought directly to them.
    All resistance is met with martial force from the conservative movement’s now-beloved smaller but ruthlessly autocratic gummint as they hold the corpse of the now dead baby for ransom.
    There’s plenty of available space in those private prisons Sessions was bought off to build.
    Guantanamo is now open for business with no sunsetting.
    Conservative vermin abhor a vacuum.

  1377. Last night I was trying to figure out what exactly it is that I find most offensive about POTUS Trump. It finally came to me.
    He’s like a bad lounge act POTUS. Only not as satire.

  1378. Last night I was trying to figure out what exactly it is that I find most offensive about POTUS Trump. It finally came to me.
    He’s like a bad lounge act POTUS. Only not as satire.

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