How did we get here?

862 thoughts on “How did we get here?”

1. “And religion is another part of what helps support traditional families”. What does that mean? As actually practiced, it means rigid gender roles and male domination. That’s yer “Traditional Families” right there.
   I’m 67 and I’m an old white guy and I know these people. They are upset that white people aren’t having babies. Others, not so much. The religion part is pretty fungible. It’s more of a tribal marker and social network than any commitment to good conduct toward anyone outside the tribe.

2. “And religion is another part of what helps support traditional families”. What does that mean? As actually practiced, it means rigid gender roles and male domination. That’s yer “Traditional Families” right there.
   I’m 67 and I’m an old white guy and I know these people. They are upset that white people aren’t having babies. Others, not so much. The religion part is pretty fungible. It’s more of a tribal marker and social network than any commitment to good conduct toward anyone outside the tribe.

3. WWII unified the country because it brought together people from different geographic and economic circumstances (although most experienced significant poverty during the depression), and gave them a common cause, loyalty to the federal government, and tangible economic benefits. The post-War boom kept everyone happy until the Civil War revived old divisions, and anti-federal government sentiment in the south. The Vietnam war exacerbated cultural tensions because the anti-war movement was seen as mostly a project of privileged college students.
   When Reagan captured the conservative imagination, it was the beginning of the end.

4. WWII unified the country because it brought together people from different geographic and economic circumstances (although most experienced significant poverty during the depression), and gave them a common cause, loyalty to the federal government, and tangible economic benefits. The post-War boom kept everyone happy until the Civil War revived old divisions, and anti-federal government sentiment in the south. The Vietnam war exacerbated cultural tensions because the anti-war movement was seen as mostly a project of privileged college students.
   When Reagan captured the conservative imagination, it was the beginning of the end.

5. Oops, when I said “the Civil War” I meant the Civil War, Stage 2 – the civil rights movement.

6. Oops, when I said “the Civil War” I meant the Civil War, Stage 2 – the civil rights movement.

7. Well, perhaps if they want youngsters (of whatever hue) to have more babies, then perhaps they should spend a bit less effort knocking out the support structures that HELP people be able to handle “kids” situation.
   Like jobs that pay well enough that survival and comfort only requires a single income. Or free pre-K childcare and affordable family healthcare. Or paid maternity leave. Or free prenatal care.
   Yes “free” a lot, because if you demand that the young’n’fertile pay for that stuff themselves, they won’t be able to unless they get A LOT MORE PAY from their jobs, and then they might well spend it on other stuff.
   But, oh, no, that stuff is SOCIALIST or even YURPEAN, so unpossible. And here we are.
   If you’re not willing to take the obvious steps that lead to your (claimed) desired outcome, you can SHUT THE FNCK UP, DIPSTICK.
   Also, punch in the face, old while a-holes. Die soon.

8. Well, perhaps if they want youngsters (of whatever hue) to have more babies, then perhaps they should spend a bit less effort knocking out the support structures that HELP people be able to handle “kids” situation.
   Like jobs that pay well enough that survival and comfort only requires a single income. Or free pre-K childcare and affordable family healthcare. Or paid maternity leave. Or free prenatal care.
   Yes “free” a lot, because if you demand that the young’n’fertile pay for that stuff themselves, they won’t be able to unless they get A LOT MORE PAY from their jobs, and then they might well spend it on other stuff.
   But, oh, no, that stuff is SOCIALIST or even YURPEAN, so unpossible. And here we are.
   If you’re not willing to take the obvious steps that lead to your (claimed) desired outcome, you can SHUT THE FNCK UP, DIPSTICK.
   Also, punch in the face, old while a-holes. Die soon.

9. I don’t think this is accurate at all. I’m sure there are some fundamentalists who are weirded out by women with jobs and no husband, but I think that if you surveyed actual conservatives you’d find loads of them for whom “young women go to college then find jobs and everyone uses birth control and that’s all fine” is basically standard practice.
   I think it’s a lot more simple. The culture war stuff is damaging to conservative attitudes about liberals long after the culture war ends in the liberals favor because they hold grudges. There was a period where conservative leaders were regularly saying really awful things about gay people. The liberal response was, quite reasonably, “what a bunch of bigots.” That worked. But now everybody who clapped along when gay people were being derided is editing their memory to de-emphasize their actions and words on that score, but they’re remembering in detail that time someone called them a bigot on Facebook, or more likely, that time when their favorite radio host told them all about how some liberal somewhere called them all bigots for a stupid reason. A detailed recollection of how others slighted you is a great way of re orienting yourself so that you can forget things you’re ashamed of.
   More centrally, conservatives tend to have an aesthetic vision of what it means to be a good person. It looks something like, “strong, independent, doesn’t need handouts, solves problems through strength, deters threats with strength, self made, owes no one anything.”
   Conservative media messaging focuses on playing up the idea that this represents conservatives and conservative political outcomes, and that if this doesn’t represent your life, it’s because the government got in the way- an entity so powerful you can’t be expected to fight it alone even if you’re a tough, self made man.
   Liberals also have an aesthetic vision of the world, and its all but the polar opposite. It involves an almost meditative focus on rejecting the validity of the conservative aesthetic vision (check your privilege) and an insistence that people be treated as class groupings, and that the government is the vehicle by which differences within class groupings- which can only be attributed to injustice- be remedied.
   I think that’s it.

10. I don’t think this is accurate at all. I’m sure there are some fundamentalists who are weirded out by women with jobs and no husband, but I think that if you surveyed actual conservatives you’d find loads of them for whom “young women go to college then find jobs and everyone uses birth control and that’s all fine” is basically standard practice.
    I think it’s a lot more simple. The culture war stuff is damaging to conservative attitudes about liberals long after the culture war ends in the liberals favor because they hold grudges. There was a period where conservative leaders were regularly saying really awful things about gay people. The liberal response was, quite reasonably, “what a bunch of bigots.” That worked. But now everybody who clapped along when gay people were being derided is editing their memory to de-emphasize their actions and words on that score, but they’re remembering in detail that time someone called them a bigot on Facebook, or more likely, that time when their favorite radio host told them all about how some liberal somewhere called them all bigots for a stupid reason. A detailed recollection of how others slighted you is a great way of re orienting yourself so that you can forget things you’re ashamed of.
    More centrally, conservatives tend to have an aesthetic vision of what it means to be a good person. It looks something like, “strong, independent, doesn’t need handouts, solves problems through strength, deters threats with strength, self made, owes no one anything.”
    Conservative media messaging focuses on playing up the idea that this represents conservatives and conservative political outcomes, and that if this doesn’t represent your life, it’s because the government got in the way- an entity so powerful you can’t be expected to fight it alone even if you’re a tough, self made man.
    Liberals also have an aesthetic vision of the world, and its all but the polar opposite. It involves an almost meditative focus on rejecting the validity of the conservative aesthetic vision (check your privilege) and an insistence that people be treated as class groupings, and that the government is the vehicle by which differences within class groupings- which can only be attributed to injustice- be remedied.
    I think that’s it.

11. because they hold grudges
    This is it. I would argue some large percentage hold grudges dating from 1864.

12. because they hold grudges
    This is it. I would argue some large percentage hold grudges dating from 1864.

13. Liberals also have an aesthetic vision of the world, and its all but the polar opposite.
    I’m not so sure it is the polar opposite. In my observation, most liberals are fine with people being “strong, independent, doesn’t need handouts, solves problems through strength, deters threats with strength”. They would like everybody to get there.
    It’s just that, opposite to conservatives, they think it is the responsibility of everybody (collectively, thru government) to help people reach that point. In short, they disagree on the “self made, owes no one anything” part. And even there, they actually would like people to be able to achieve the “self-made” part . . . they just don’t see it happening without help to get to the point that it’s possible.
    Personally, I think that there is something to be said for the idea that people are responsible for their own actions, and the results of those actions. The idea that “owes no one anything” is the cancerous extreme of. Certainly I don’t like the view that, for everybody who has problems, it’s always someone else’s fault. And toxic liberalism (perhaps in response to toxic conservatism) has a tendency to go there.
    Not to say that some things are not the fault of bad behavior by others. But I think people can do a lot more to help themselves, and especially not to sabotage themselves, than they are routinely held to. See, for example, Hidden Figures and consider the way the families there worked like demons to make a better life for their kids. And held those kids to standards which would help them succeed in life — even in the face of viscous racism. Contrast that to what we see in big parts of poor communities today.

14. Liberals also have an aesthetic vision of the world, and its all but the polar opposite.
    I’m not so sure it is the polar opposite. In my observation, most liberals are fine with people being “strong, independent, doesn’t need handouts, solves problems through strength, deters threats with strength”. They would like everybody to get there.
    It’s just that, opposite to conservatives, they think it is the responsibility of everybody (collectively, thru government) to help people reach that point. In short, they disagree on the “self made, owes no one anything” part. And even there, they actually would like people to be able to achieve the “self-made” part . . . they just don’t see it happening without help to get to the point that it’s possible.
    Personally, I think that there is something to be said for the idea that people are responsible for their own actions, and the results of those actions. The idea that “owes no one anything” is the cancerous extreme of. Certainly I don’t like the view that, for everybody who has problems, it’s always someone else’s fault. And toxic liberalism (perhaps in response to toxic conservatism) has a tendency to go there.
    Not to say that some things are not the fault of bad behavior by others. But I think people can do a lot more to help themselves, and especially not to sabotage themselves, than they are routinely held to. See, for example, Hidden Figures and consider the way the families there worked like demons to make a better life for their kids. And held those kids to standards which would help them succeed in life — even in the face of viscous racism. Contrast that to what we see in big parts of poor communities today.

15. “I would argue some large percentage hold grudges dating from 1864.”
    Don’t give away the secret to the sauce:
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/04/24/americas-most-political-food

16. “I would argue some large percentage hold grudges dating from 1864.”
    Don’t give away the secret to the sauce:
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/04/24/americas-most-political-food

17. “It occurs to me to wonder: How did that happen? How did we get 35 years of popular support for a party which wants to enrich less than 20% (maybe less than 10%) of the population at the expense of the rest? “
    George Gilder?

18. “It occurs to me to wonder: How did that happen? How did we get 35 years of popular support for a party which wants to enrich less than 20% (maybe less than 10%) of the population at the expense of the rest? “
    George Gilder?

19. Speaking of religion, from Count’s link:
    “In Newman v. Piggie Park Enterprises, Inc., the district court asserted that “the fact that Piggie Park at all six of its eating places denies full and equal service to Negroes because of their race is uncontested and completely established by evidence,” but it concluded that the restaurants, because they were principally drive-ins, weren’t subject to the public-accommodation provision of the Civil Rights Act. When a higher court reversed the ruling, Bessinger appealed to the Supreme Court, claiming that being forced to serve black people violated his religious principles. He lost, in a unanimous decision. (Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg recently cited the case in her Hobby Lobby dissent.) ”

20. Speaking of religion, from Count’s link:
    “In Newman v. Piggie Park Enterprises, Inc., the district court asserted that “the fact that Piggie Park at all six of its eating places denies full and equal service to Negroes because of their race is uncontested and completely established by evidence,” but it concluded that the restaurants, because they were principally drive-ins, weren’t subject to the public-accommodation provision of the Civil Rights Act. When a higher court reversed the ruling, Bessinger appealed to the Supreme Court, claiming that being forced to serve black people violated his religious principles. He lost, in a unanimous decision. (Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg recently cited the case in her Hobby Lobby dissent.) ”

21. In my observation, most liberals are fine with people being “strong, independent, doesn’t need handouts, solves problems through strength, deters threats with strength”. They would like everybody to get there.
    It’s just that, opposite to conservatives, they think it is the responsibility of everybody (collectively, thru government) to help people reach that point. In short, they disagree on the “self made, owes no one anything” part. And even there, they actually would like people to be able to achieve the “self-made” part . . . they just don’t see it happening without help to get to the point that it’s possible.

    I’d say this is pretty much on the money, certainly about me and most liberals I know, always allowing for the fact that some people will never be able to get there and so society should be structured in such a way that those people are able to live a dignified, meaningful life rather than subsist in some shadowy underclass.
    Meanwhile, since wj carried some of this over from the other thread, so will I. Since we are talking tangentially of economic theory, I have read some of bob mcmanus’s writings on CT, and have found that in many cases I do not understand ONE SINGLE WORD. I therefore am suspicious of my previous feeling of enlightenment, and will never repeat it. To be clear, I attribute this mistake to my lack of education and background in the relevant areas, never having read any of the literature, not to any failings on his part.

22. In my observation, most liberals are fine with people being “strong, independent, doesn’t need handouts, solves problems through strength, deters threats with strength”. They would like everybody to get there.
    It’s just that, opposite to conservatives, they think it is the responsibility of everybody (collectively, thru government) to help people reach that point. In short, they disagree on the “self made, owes no one anything” part. And even there, they actually would like people to be able to achieve the “self-made” part . . . they just don’t see it happening without help to get to the point that it’s possible.

    I’d say this is pretty much on the money, certainly about me and most liberals I know, always allowing for the fact that some people will never be able to get there and so society should be structured in such a way that those people are able to live a dignified, meaningful life rather than subsist in some shadowy underclass.
    Meanwhile, since wj carried some of this over from the other thread, so will I. Since we are talking tangentially of economic theory, I have read some of bob mcmanus’s writings on CT, and have found that in many cases I do not understand ONE SINGLE WORD. I therefore am suspicious of my previous feeling of enlightenment, and will never repeat it. To be clear, I attribute this mistake to my lack of education and background in the relevant areas, never having read any of the literature, not to any failings on his part.

23. George Gilder?
    Howard Jarvis?
    Wiki:In his first term, [Governor Ronald Reagan of California, 1968] froze government hiring and approved tax hikes to balance the budget. (Look up if you want, Nixon Tax Reform, 1969. Not big cuts)
    Greenspan, with authoritative backing from Milton Friedman. But Alan Greenspan was a genius who was capable of a thirty year plan. Leaving Bretton Woods (also Connally and Volcker at that Camp David meeting). Volunteer Army. All moves that played out socially over decades.
    But while not necessarily limiting myself to an economic analysis, do kinda insist for myself that my understanding be global. Because like the global event of 1968, the move to neoliberalism, as played out in the 70s and then through the 90s, was global. Thatcher. The Mitterand catastrophe in France. Deng Xiaoping in China 1978-82. Was Solidarity in Poland a move to the Right? Latin America, of course. India.
    Wiki:Sadat [Early 70s] used his immense popularity with the Egyptian people to try to push through vast economic reforms that ended the socialistic controls of Nasserism. Sadat introduced greater political freedom and a new economic policy, the most important aspect of which was the infitah or “openness”. This relaxed government controls over the economy and encouraged private investment. While the reforms created a wealthy and successful upper class and a small middle class…” And then a cultural right developed in Egypt.
    An global abandonment of Keynesianism, maybe. Why?
    So when people tell me it is all American racism and culture wars, I do have my doubts

24. George Gilder?
    Howard Jarvis?
    Wiki:In his first term, [Governor Ronald Reagan of California, 1968] froze government hiring and approved tax hikes to balance the budget. (Look up if you want, Nixon Tax Reform, 1969. Not big cuts)
    Greenspan, with authoritative backing from Milton Friedman. But Alan Greenspan was a genius who was capable of a thirty year plan. Leaving Bretton Woods (also Connally and Volcker at that Camp David meeting). Volunteer Army. All moves that played out socially over decades.
    But while not necessarily limiting myself to an economic analysis, do kinda insist for myself that my understanding be global. Because like the global event of 1968, the move to neoliberalism, as played out in the 70s and then through the 90s, was global. Thatcher. The Mitterand catastrophe in France. Deng Xiaoping in China 1978-82. Was Solidarity in Poland a move to the Right? Latin America, of course. India.
    Wiki:Sadat [Early 70s] used his immense popularity with the Egyptian people to try to push through vast economic reforms that ended the socialistic controls of Nasserism. Sadat introduced greater political freedom and a new economic policy, the most important aspect of which was the infitah or “openness”. This relaxed government controls over the economy and encouraged private investment. While the reforms created a wealthy and successful upper class and a small middle class…” And then a cultural right developed in Egypt.
    An global abandonment of Keynesianism, maybe. Why?
    So when people tell me it is all American racism and culture wars, I do have my doubts

25. when people tell me it is all American racism and culture wars, I do have my doubts
    Certainly it isn’t all American racism and culture wars. In a globally connected world, fads spread. If something looks to be working somewhere else, or even just be being implemented lots of other places, more places will try it.
    But fads spread less towards America than away from it. Lots of countries have domestic movie industries; only the US has one which routinely spreads stuff around the world. Ditto lots of other stuff.
    The rest of the world is actually pretty loud (although not much of it gets back to us) about resenting American “cultural imperialism.” But it’s not that we are shoving our culture on them deliberately. We’re just making and selling stuff. Widely.
    Among the things that get spread are our political and economic fads. (Is “fads” the right word? Nothing else seems to fit very well.) Whether it is Reagan economic policies getting picked up as Thatcherism, or democracy as the acceptable political system (witness even the worst autocrats routinely holding sham elections), if America is doing it, the rest of the world tends to give it a try — even if the evidence here suggests that it wasn’t our brightest idea ever.
    So even a place without our racism or culture wars can end up copying stuff that was generated here for that reason.

26. when people tell me it is all American racism and culture wars, I do have my doubts
    Certainly it isn’t all American racism and culture wars. In a globally connected world, fads spread. If something looks to be working somewhere else, or even just be being implemented lots of other places, more places will try it.
    But fads spread less towards America than away from it. Lots of countries have domestic movie industries; only the US has one which routinely spreads stuff around the world. Ditto lots of other stuff.
    The rest of the world is actually pretty loud (although not much of it gets back to us) about resenting American “cultural imperialism.” But it’s not that we are shoving our culture on them deliberately. We’re just making and selling stuff. Widely.
    Among the things that get spread are our political and economic fads. (Is “fads” the right word? Nothing else seems to fit very well.) Whether it is Reagan economic policies getting picked up as Thatcherism, or democracy as the acceptable political system (witness even the worst autocrats routinely holding sham elections), if America is doing it, the rest of the world tends to give it a try — even if the evidence here suggests that it wasn’t our brightest idea ever.
    So even a place without our racism or culture wars can end up copying stuff that was generated here for that reason.

27. So when people tell me it is all American racism and culture wars, I do have my doubts
    This.
    I had written a reply in the other thread, but was so tired, I forgot to press post and when I woke up this morning, I looked at the comment box, noted it was bizarrely filled with writing and then clicked on reload…
    We’ve got right wing movements all over the place, not just the US and UK, but France, Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, Greece. There is something about this historical moment. Sure, American racism and sexism is part of the special sauce that allows us to scream “USA”, but there is something more going on here.
    The link to 1968 is interesting, I’ve always wanted to write a series of blog posts about how all of these student movements, France, the US, Japan, Thailand, are all part of a ‘global’ movement. All of them arose out of particular grievances, and they didn’t happen synchronously, but the fact that they all happened within a decade has me argue that they are linked. I’ve not connected it to neo-liberalism, but when you think how all the higher education systems changed in response to these student protests, you have to wonder. More later, I hope.

28. So when people tell me it is all American racism and culture wars, I do have my doubts
    This.
    I had written a reply in the other thread, but was so tired, I forgot to press post and when I woke up this morning, I looked at the comment box, noted it was bizarrely filled with writing and then clicked on reload…
    We’ve got right wing movements all over the place, not just the US and UK, but France, Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, Greece. There is something about this historical moment. Sure, American racism and sexism is part of the special sauce that allows us to scream “USA”, but there is something more going on here.
    The link to 1968 is interesting, I’ve always wanted to write a series of blog posts about how all of these student movements, France, the US, Japan, Thailand, are all part of a ‘global’ movement. All of them arose out of particular grievances, and they didn’t happen synchronously, but the fact that they all happened within a decade has me argue that they are linked. I’ve not connected it to neo-liberalism, but when you think how all the higher education systems changed in response to these student protests, you have to wonder. More later, I hope.

29. I don’t think the phenomenon is strictly “American”. Racism and culture wars are universal, and Europe’s played out quite dramatically in the 20th century. America’s too, but in a different way.
    The financial crisis and Islamic terrorism (in Europe, the refugee crisis)has affected all of those places, bringing out these tendencies, each country in its own traditional way. This certainly isn’t the first time the world has collectively turned to radical, sometimes ugly, solutions.
    The problem is not with enlightenment principles. It’s with abandonment of them in the face of resentment and fear.

30. I don’t think the phenomenon is strictly “American”. Racism and culture wars are universal, and Europe’s played out quite dramatically in the 20th century. America’s too, but in a different way.
    The financial crisis and Islamic terrorism (in Europe, the refugee crisis)has affected all of those places, bringing out these tendencies, each country in its own traditional way. This certainly isn’t the first time the world has collectively turned to radical, sometimes ugly, solutions.
    The problem is not with enlightenment principles. It’s with abandonment of them in the face of resentment and fear.

31. I don’t know how relevant this is to the matter at hand, except I suppose that all these rightwing movements are very supportive of Putin, but if anyone is interested this is Carole Cadwalladr’s latest piece on her continuing analyis of the Trump-Ukip-Cambridge Analytica-Putin and now Assange nexus:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/23/when-nigel-farage-met-julian-assange

32. I don’t know how relevant this is to the matter at hand, except I suppose that all these rightwing movements are very supportive of Putin, but if anyone is interested this is Carole Cadwalladr’s latest piece on her continuing analyis of the Trump-Ukip-Cambridge Analytica-Putin and now Assange nexus:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/23/when-nigel-farage-met-julian-assange

33. I think I just posted and it disappeared into the ether (apologies if it reappears), but shorter: of possible relevance to the question at hand even if only because of the support by all these various rightwing movements for Putin, here for anybody who is interested is Carole Cadwalladr’s latest piece examining the Trump-Ukip/Farage-Cambridge Analytica and now Assange nexus:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/23/when-nigel-farage-met-julian-assange

34. I think I just posted and it disappeared into the ether (apologies if it reappears), but shorter: of possible relevance to the question at hand even if only because of the support by all these various rightwing movements for Putin, here for anybody who is interested is Carole Cadwalladr’s latest piece examining the Trump-Ukip/Farage-Cambridge Analytica and now Assange nexus:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/23/when-nigel-farage-met-julian-assange

35. Two comments with I think an interesting link have just vanished into (I assume) the spam trap. If anybody wants to resurrect one of them, great, I’m off to bed.

36. Two comments with I think an interesting link have just vanished into (I assume) the spam trap. If anybody wants to resurrect one of them, great, I’m off to bed.

37. What have Democrats ever done that has a REAL negative affect on families?
    About the only thing I can think of is a very old example. I sort of remenber Daniel Moynahan’s criticisms of how welfare was administered in his day. I am not sure that is something that only Dems should be blamed for.
    Democrats may be seen by people who expose themselves to Rush Limbaugh and his ilk as anti-family–after all rightwing hate radio and rightwing fake news are a big influence and demonizing Dems is a big part of their message. but the idea that democrats are really either by attitude or action undermining families is unfair. If there is any common attitude toward families anomgst Dems it would be the attitude that the need for family is a fundamental human need, but that this is more than one way for a family to be a healthy happy unit.
    I think the point here is that the political right leaders such as Atwater and ROve in this country made a conscious decision to employ the most polarizing tactics they could. To a large extent that meant demonizing, and marginalizing everyone who was not them. Hate was used when handy:gay bashing was big as long as it worked. When it stopped working the target of the bashing became immigrants and Muslims.The purpose of this tactic was to build up a base of voters who would vote Republican no matter what out of the belief that everyone else posed an existential threat to their way of life. It was a deliberate and cynical tactic used because the leaders of the Republican party knew (and kow right now) that their policies are harmful to most Americans, including their voters.
    Yes, there are right wing movements all over the place. Rightwing leaders exploit fear and there is a lot ot be afraid of. catastrophic events are forcing millions of people to move. That is triggering the fear of the other that seems to be wired into the hardware of the human brain. Rightwing politicians exploit that fear while offering no real solutions. Actually the last thing in the world rightwing politicians want to do is improve the lives of their voters. Do that and there would be less fear and agner for them to exploit.

38. What have Democrats ever done that has a REAL negative affect on families?
    About the only thing I can think of is a very old example. I sort of remenber Daniel Moynahan’s criticisms of how welfare was administered in his day. I am not sure that is something that only Dems should be blamed for.
    Democrats may be seen by people who expose themselves to Rush Limbaugh and his ilk as anti-family–after all rightwing hate radio and rightwing fake news are a big influence and demonizing Dems is a big part of their message. but the idea that democrats are really either by attitude or action undermining families is unfair. If there is any common attitude toward families anomgst Dems it would be the attitude that the need for family is a fundamental human need, but that this is more than one way for a family to be a healthy happy unit.
    I think the point here is that the political right leaders such as Atwater and ROve in this country made a conscious decision to employ the most polarizing tactics they could. To a large extent that meant demonizing, and marginalizing everyone who was not them. Hate was used when handy:gay bashing was big as long as it worked. When it stopped working the target of the bashing became immigrants and Muslims.The purpose of this tactic was to build up a base of voters who would vote Republican no matter what out of the belief that everyone else posed an existential threat to their way of life. It was a deliberate and cynical tactic used because the leaders of the Republican party knew (and kow right now) that their policies are harmful to most Americans, including their voters.
    Yes, there are right wing movements all over the place. Rightwing leaders exploit fear and there is a lot ot be afraid of. catastrophic events are forcing millions of people to move. That is triggering the fear of the other that seems to be wired into the hardware of the human brain. Rightwing politicians exploit that fear while offering no real solutions. Actually the last thing in the world rightwing politicians want to do is improve the lives of their voters. Do that and there would be less fear and agner for them to exploit.

39. How did that happen?
    I don’t think this is the right crowd to answer the question. I know I cant.
    maybe it’s a family values thing. I will say that if it’s all about single mom’s and couples not having kids, then I’m even more puzzled than I was ten minutes ago.
    the other thing I will say is that some kind of sense of being disrespected and looked down upon seems to be in the mix. reagan/bush/trump people all seem to be nursing some kind of resentment. to me, anyway.
    when I talk with those folks, I can understand the words they are saying, and can basically understand where they are coming from. I just don’t see how the world they want works for folks who aren’t them, and it disturbs me that they don’t see why that might be a problem.

40. How did that happen?
    I don’t think this is the right crowd to answer the question. I know I cant.
    maybe it’s a family values thing. I will say that if it’s all about single mom’s and couples not having kids, then I’m even more puzzled than I was ten minutes ago.
    the other thing I will say is that some kind of sense of being disrespected and looked down upon seems to be in the mix. reagan/bush/trump people all seem to be nursing some kind of resentment. to me, anyway.
    when I talk with those folks, I can understand the words they are saying, and can basically understand where they are coming from. I just don’t see how the world they want works for folks who aren’t them, and it disturbs me that they don’t see why that might be a problem.

41. Lots of countries have domestic movie industries; only the US has one which routinely spreads stuff around the world. Ditto lots of other stuff.
    dude: bollywood and reggae. chinese kung fu movies and K-pop.
    we’re not the only catfish in the sea.

42. Lots of countries have domestic movie industries; only the US has one which routinely spreads stuff around the world. Ditto lots of other stuff.
    dude: bollywood and reggae. chinese kung fu movies and K-pop.
    we’re not the only catfish in the sea.

43. Yes, other countries do have movie industries, as noted. And some kinds of films from them do make it here. But the full range of their production? Just the US manages world-wide distribution like that.

44. Yes, other countries do have movie industries, as noted. And some kinds of films from them do make it here. But the full range of their production? Just the US manages world-wide distribution like that.

45. I think you’re misunderstanding the fundamental cause. The nice part of the 20th century basically went only from WWII through the mid-1970s. Before that, we had the Depression. After, oil shocks, stagflation and Reagan.
    Basically, that era was characterized by strong economic growth which resulted from the facts that 1) we’d literally blasted our competitors to pieces, 2) the economy was sophisticated enough to employ millions of factory workers yet primitive enough to need them, and 3) we were still able to solve a lot of economic problems by throwing cheap fossil fuel at them.
    When those conditions ceased to be true, the growth went from ~5% to ~2% annually. This left us poorer than we’d expected to be, and we naturally fell to squabbling as we each tried to protect our own. Since this is a democracy, the majority usually got a better deal than any minority did.

46. I think you’re misunderstanding the fundamental cause. The nice part of the 20th century basically went only from WWII through the mid-1970s. Before that, we had the Depression. After, oil shocks, stagflation and Reagan.
    Basically, that era was characterized by strong economic growth which resulted from the facts that 1) we’d literally blasted our competitors to pieces, 2) the economy was sophisticated enough to employ millions of factory workers yet primitive enough to need them, and 3) we were still able to solve a lot of economic problems by throwing cheap fossil fuel at them.
    When those conditions ceased to be true, the growth went from ~5% to ~2% annually. This left us poorer than we’d expected to be, and we naturally fell to squabbling as we each tried to protect our own. Since this is a democracy, the majority usually got a better deal than any minority did.

47. Re: fads.
    My theory, which is mine: All cultures generate (or expand upon) “new ideas”, some of which are good, some of which are horribly bad, most of which are “meh”.
    Where America is truly exceptional? MARKETING those ideas to the rest of the world.
    2008 global economic meltdown, case in point.

48. Re: fads.
    My theory, which is mine: All cultures generate (or expand upon) “new ideas”, some of which are good, some of which are horribly bad, most of which are “meh”.
    Where America is truly exceptional? MARKETING those ideas to the rest of the world.
    2008 global economic meltdown, case in point.

49. What a different world we lived in last year.

50. What a different world we lived in last year.

51. Jay skrev :
    the facts that 1) 2) 3)
    4) To pay for WWII, the nation imposed confiscatory income taxes on the wealthiest. This turns out to have had many positive common-good side-effects. Among them :
    a. Because it was more difficult to use a corporation as a cash-cow for the owners and management, profits stayed invested, and there was somewhat less incentive to squeeze profits out of workers. CEOs made 30x the average employee salary, not 300x as today. This gave us the RCA Sarnoff labs and Bell Labs, two of the glories of 20th century American tech development.
    b. fewer among the wealthiest were able to amass such enormous fortunes that they could buy politicians and political parties outright.
    c. fewer of the wealthy were able to adopt lifestyles completely uncoupled from the fortunes of the United States. Once the fortunes of wealthy Americans were tied up in the welfare of the nation as a whole; this is much less true today.
    d. societies with extreme concentration of wealth, and extreme wealth inequality, are less stable and less happy.
    e. philanthropy

52. Jay skrev :
    the facts that 1) 2) 3)
    4) To pay for WWII, the nation imposed confiscatory income taxes on the wealthiest. This turns out to have had many positive common-good side-effects. Among them :
    a. Because it was more difficult to use a corporation as a cash-cow for the owners and management, profits stayed invested, and there was somewhat less incentive to squeeze profits out of workers. CEOs made 30x the average employee salary, not 300x as today. This gave us the RCA Sarnoff labs and Bell Labs, two of the glories of 20th century American tech development.
    b. fewer among the wealthiest were able to amass such enormous fortunes that they could buy politicians and political parties outright.
    c. fewer of the wealthy were able to adopt lifestyles completely uncoupled from the fortunes of the United States. Once the fortunes of wealthy Americans were tied up in the welfare of the nation as a whole; this is much less true today.
    d. societies with extreme concentration of wealth, and extreme wealth inequality, are less stable and less happy.
    e. philanthropy

53. 2008 global economic meltdown, case in point.
    The ads were something else indeed!

54. 2008 global economic meltdown, case in point.
    The ads were something else indeed!

55. Well said, Joel. In fact, if the rich had had their way in 1939-1941 we would have never entered the war.
    The marshalling of common resources to win WWII was simply stupendous.
    The idea that we must do something similar wrt global warming? Not so much.
    Killing the commons is an existential crisis.
    But I’m just some wild eyed bomb thrower on the internets…..

56. Well said, Joel. In fact, if the rich had had their way in 1939-1941 we would have never entered the war.
    The marshalling of common resources to win WWII was simply stupendous.
    The idea that we must do something similar wrt global warming? Not so much.
    Killing the commons is an existential crisis.
    But I’m just some wild eyed bomb thrower on the internets…..

57. Joel, you make some solid points. But the question before the house is: how did we get back to a new Gilded Age, with substantial support a party pushing for policies that do so much economic damage? Why were we willing to let go of economic policies which were working well? How do they keep selling it?
    My thesis is that they don’t sell it. Instead, the support comes from people who are willing to ignore how bad those policies are for them, because they are focused on what they see as serious cultural attacks by the other party. Specifically, attacks on the family as an institution.

58. Joel, you make some solid points. But the question before the house is: how did we get back to a new Gilded Age, with substantial support a party pushing for policies that do so much economic damage? Why were we willing to let go of economic policies which were working well? How do they keep selling it?
    My thesis is that they don’t sell it. Instead, the support comes from people who are willing to ignore how bad those policies are for them, because they are focused on what they see as serious cultural attacks by the other party. Specifically, attacks on the family as an institution.

59. I find a bit odd that the Democrats (or New Labour, if you like) get a free pass on this here when they just put a bit of lipstick on the pig:
    https://www.thenation.com/article/why-it-matters-that-hillary-clinton-championed-welfare-reform/
    Third was just a continuation of the Reagan/Thatcher polices with better PR. It didn’t work and that’s one reason we are where we are.

60. I find a bit odd that the Democrats (or New Labour, if you like) get a free pass on this here when they just put a bit of lipstick on the pig:
    https://www.thenation.com/article/why-it-matters-that-hillary-clinton-championed-welfare-reform/
    Third was just a continuation of the Reagan/Thatcher polices with better PR. It didn’t work and that’s one reason we are where we are.

61. “Third Way”, sorry

62. “Third Way”, sorry

63. The culture-war wedge issues are the means by which those who have purchased the Republican Party “sell” Republicanism to the voters they need.
    Sheldon Adelson and the Kochs and the Spencers and DeVos et. ilk are probably not themselves single-issue anti-abortion voters, nor is it necessary that they actually despise people of color, nor that they be revolted by the idea of same-sex marriage. But they can use those issues to whip up loyalty to the Republican Party, which has spent 40 years giving lip service to the culture war while quietly accomplishing their main goal : helping the plutocrats sneak out the back door with the boodle.

64. The culture-war wedge issues are the means by which those who have purchased the Republican Party “sell” Republicanism to the voters they need.
    Sheldon Adelson and the Kochs and the Spencers and DeVos et. ilk are probably not themselves single-issue anti-abortion voters, nor is it necessary that they actually despise people of color, nor that they be revolted by the idea of same-sex marriage. But they can use those issues to whip up loyalty to the Republican Party, which has spent 40 years giving lip service to the culture war while quietly accomplishing their main goal : helping the plutocrats sneak out the back door with the boodle.

65. But I think sapient gets an essential bit of it above: the searing mid-20th-century experiences of shared privation (the great Depression) and shared sacrifice for the common good (WWII) are passing out of living memory, and with them the idea that we’re all in this together.
    The social mixing from military service became a war-movie trope: the Polish guy, the Italian guy, the Irish guy, the southerner, the farmer, the city kid, all thrown together and facing death somewhere far from home. The reality of that mixing died for good with the volunteer Army — most college-educated parents will never have a child in military service, so our ‘elites’ no longer have that experience of serving with people not like them — or of serving at all, of duty. And even Kelly’s Heros didn’t have a woman. Or a black guy. Or a Muslim. Or an out gay.
    Too many Americans no longer feel that we’re all in this together, nor that they have any duty to serve anything bigger than their own self-interest; and the perceived self-interests of all too many Americans are dominated by purposely-manfactured resentments and fears.

66. But I think sapient gets an essential bit of it above: the searing mid-20th-century experiences of shared privation (the great Depression) and shared sacrifice for the common good (WWII) are passing out of living memory, and with them the idea that we’re all in this together.
    The social mixing from military service became a war-movie trope: the Polish guy, the Italian guy, the Irish guy, the southerner, the farmer, the city kid, all thrown together and facing death somewhere far from home. The reality of that mixing died for good with the volunteer Army — most college-educated parents will never have a child in military service, so our ‘elites’ no longer have that experience of serving with people not like them — or of serving at all, of duty. And even Kelly’s Heros didn’t have a woman. Or a black guy. Or a Muslim. Or an out gay.
    Too many Americans no longer feel that we’re all in this together, nor that they have any duty to serve anything bigger than their own self-interest; and the perceived self-interests of all too many Americans are dominated by purposely-manfactured resentments and fears.

67. Specifically, attacks on the family as an institution.
    the sense of threat seems right, but it seems broader than just the family.
    maybe some of the other conservatives can share their thoughts.

68. Specifically, attacks on the family as an institution.
    the sense of threat seems right, but it seems broader than just the family.
    maybe some of the other conservatives can share their thoughts.

69. “fewer of the wealthy were able to adopt lifestyles completely uncoupled from the fortunes of the United States. Once the fortunes of wealthy Americans were tied up in the welfare of the nation as a whole; this is much less true today”
    One of the unintended consequences of globalism. The CEO of the global corporation isn’t emotionally tied to the good of any set of workers. They mostly just manage brands and spreadsheets, or PDF versions of dashboards. If this nation doesn’t do well they just turn their attention to other markets.

70. “fewer of the wealthy were able to adopt lifestyles completely uncoupled from the fortunes of the United States. Once the fortunes of wealthy Americans were tied up in the welfare of the nation as a whole; this is much less true today”
    One of the unintended consequences of globalism. The CEO of the global corporation isn’t emotionally tied to the good of any set of workers. They mostly just manage brands and spreadsheets, or PDF versions of dashboards. If this nation doesn’t do well they just turn their attention to other markets.

71. Joel, I mostly agree with you. On the other hand, American and British plutocrats had a decade or two of high income taxes; their continental equivalents were expropriated or killed by some combination of Nazis, communists, de-Nazification, and the war. The power of the wealthy was broken much more thoroughly in Europe (excluding Britain and Italy) than in America, and that largely explains the political differences that remain.
    Wj, my point above was that the good times of the middle twentieth century were mostly not caused by our economic policies. Rather, we were able to afford the welfare state because unrepeatable factors had left us wealthy. By “wealthy” I mostly mean that wealth had grown faster than claims on that wealth, so we had a surplus available for distribution.

72. Joel, I mostly agree with you. On the other hand, American and British plutocrats had a decade or two of high income taxes; their continental equivalents were expropriated or killed by some combination of Nazis, communists, de-Nazification, and the war. The power of the wealthy was broken much more thoroughly in Europe (excluding Britain and Italy) than in America, and that largely explains the political differences that remain.
    Wj, my point above was that the good times of the middle twentieth century were mostly not caused by our economic policies. Rather, we were able to afford the welfare state because unrepeatable factors had left us wealthy. By “wealthy” I mostly mean that wealth had grown faster than claims on that wealth, so we had a surplus available for distribution.

73. Well, the threat is to what many consider a certain way of life. As defined by getting up, going to work, getting raises, saving money, buying a house, having a yard for your kids, coaching little league, being a part of the church community, helping your kids get to second base in life, at least first, then helping the grandkids too, having enough leisure time to look forward to and being appreciated for the caring and hard work that life demands.
    The last sentence is what has changed. Now those same, men in particular, are old white men whose beliefs are demeaned, efforts diminished constantly, values mocked and intentions questioned. They have changed from being the backbone of a great country to being a bunch of people that society is hoping will die soon. Everyone a domains group protest old white men making decisions in Congress every old white man shakes his head and wonders when we became the bad guys. And if the 40 year olds know their turn is just around the corner.
    Owning a home or a car is old fashioned, the access economy purposefully belittles our accomplishments while convincing people that driving a cab for 9 dollars an hour and no benefits while providing the car is an economic good. Or a leg up somehow. That everyone should be involved in some tech startup while fewer people are starting companies than in decades. The list of large and small insults to a life we worked hard to create is long, and disheartening.

74. Well, the threat is to what many consider a certain way of life. As defined by getting up, going to work, getting raises, saving money, buying a house, having a yard for your kids, coaching little league, being a part of the church community, helping your kids get to second base in life, at least first, then helping the grandkids too, having enough leisure time to look forward to and being appreciated for the caring and hard work that life demands.
    The last sentence is what has changed. Now those same, men in particular, are old white men whose beliefs are demeaned, efforts diminished constantly, values mocked and intentions questioned. They have changed from being the backbone of a great country to being a bunch of people that society is hoping will die soon. Everyone a domains group protest old white men making decisions in Congress every old white man shakes his head and wonders when we became the bad guys. And if the 40 year olds know their turn is just around the corner.
    Owning a home or a car is old fashioned, the access economy purposefully belittles our accomplishments while convincing people that driving a cab for 9 dollars an hour and no benefits while providing the car is an economic good. Or a leg up somehow. That everyone should be involved in some tech startup while fewer people are starting companies than in decades. The list of large and small insults to a life we worked hard to create is long, and disheartening.

75. “Everyone a domains”/ every time a women’s group

76. “Everyone a domains”/ every time a women’s group

77. Everyone a domains group protest old white men making decisions in Congress every old white man shakes his head and wonders when we became the bad guys.
    old white guys are learning that society no longer automatically elevates them – they’re losing that, yes, privilege. and they’re learning that old white guy is no longer society’s ‘default’ person. old white guy is now just another type of person, no better than any other.
    the sooner old white men start accepting this, the better off we’ll all be.
    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/325562-dem-lawmaker-shreds-house-gop-over-lack-of-women-in-maternity

78. Everyone a domains group protest old white men making decisions in Congress every old white man shakes his head and wonders when we became the bad guys.
    old white guys are learning that society no longer automatically elevates them – they’re losing that, yes, privilege. and they’re learning that old white guy is no longer society’s ‘default’ person. old white guy is now just another type of person, no better than any other.
    the sooner old white men start accepting this, the better off we’ll all be.
    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/325562-dem-lawmaker-shreds-house-gop-over-lack-of-women-in-maternity

79. Old white guys aren’t against other people participating, old white guys are tired of being defined as the bad guy. Just as your link portrays. How many women are there in the Freedom Caucus, none? How many old white men at in the Black Congressional caucus? It’s stupid identity politics that’s insulting to everyone of those people who represent lots of women. Mist of them with wives, daughters, sisters, mothers etc. The premise that they can’t effectively represent women is b.s.. Now, whether the Freedom Caucus itself does or doesn’t is fair game. But not because they are old white men. I suspect there are some old white men on this blog that would be considered perfectly fine represetatives.

80. Old white guys aren’t against other people participating, old white guys are tired of being defined as the bad guy. Just as your link portrays. How many women are there in the Freedom Caucus, none? How many old white men at in the Black Congressional caucus? It’s stupid identity politics that’s insulting to everyone of those people who represent lots of women. Mist of them with wives, daughters, sisters, mothers etc. The premise that they can’t effectively represent women is b.s.. Now, whether the Freedom Caucus itself does or doesn’t is fair game. But not because they are old white men. I suspect there are some old white men on this blog that would be considered perfectly fine represetatives.

81. In fact, if the rich had had their way in 1939-1941 we would have never entered the war.
    FDR was rich.
    On that subject, this is a fascinating article about some people debating intervention into WWII. Interesting that Lindbergh’s father blamed “the rich” for getting us into WWI.

82. In fact, if the rich had had their way in 1939-1941 we would have never entered the war.
    FDR was rich.
    On that subject, this is a fascinating article about some people debating intervention into WWII. Interesting that Lindbergh’s father blamed “the rich” for getting us into WWI.

83. Old white guys aren’t against other people participating, old white guys are tired of being defined as the bad guy.
    and everybody else is tired of listening to the people with all the power complaining that they’re being asked to share some of that power.
    old white guys and their traditions aren’t being automatically respected anymore? now we know how the rest of the world feels!
    It’s stupid identity politics…
    identity politics isn’t something that only non-old-white-men can play. juss sayin.
    The premise that they can’t effectively represent women is b.s.
    people are no longer satisfied by being told what to do by people who don’t know what they go through. you fighting this is part of the problem.
    

84. Old white guys aren’t against other people participating, old white guys are tired of being defined as the bad guy.
    and everybody else is tired of listening to the people with all the power complaining that they’re being asked to share some of that power.
    old white guys and their traditions aren’t being automatically respected anymore? now we know how the rest of the world feels!
    It’s stupid identity politics…
    identity politics isn’t something that only non-old-white-men can play. juss sayin.
    The premise that they can’t effectively represent women is b.s.
    people are no longer satisfied by being told what to do by people who don’t know what they go through. you fighting this is part of the problem.
    

85. italiexo!

86. italiexo!

87. how did we get back to a new Gilded Age, with substantial support a party pushing for policies that do so much economic damage?
    Big question…some tidbits
    The WMC had it all in the post war period, but others began to assert claims on that boodle, cf. Civil Rights, feminism.
    Worker productivity growth fell off dramatically starting in the early 70’s…so less boodle to fight over.
    Having conquered inflation in the early 80’s, the Fed has consistently promoted policies that lead to labor market slack, putting downward pressure on wages.
    The lessons learned battling the Depression and fascism were easy to toss overboard once things returned to ‘normal’. Taft-Hartley was passed shortly after the war.
    And remember, Clinton was the slight winner of those voting and making under $50k/yr.

88. how did we get back to a new Gilded Age, with substantial support a party pushing for policies that do so much economic damage?
    Big question…some tidbits
    The WMC had it all in the post war period, but others began to assert claims on that boodle, cf. Civil Rights, feminism.
    Worker productivity growth fell off dramatically starting in the early 70’s…so less boodle to fight over.
    Having conquered inflation in the early 80’s, the Fed has consistently promoted policies that lead to labor market slack, putting downward pressure on wages.
    The lessons learned battling the Depression and fascism were easy to toss overboard once things returned to ‘normal’. Taft-Hartley was passed shortly after the war.
    And remember, Clinton was the slight winner of those voting and making under $50k/yr.

89. bobbyp: And remember, Clinton was the slight winner of those voting and making under $50k/yr.
    I find a bit odd that the Democrats (or New Labour, if you like) get a free pass on this here when they just put a bit of lipstick on the pig:
    ***
    Third [way] was just a continuation of the Reagan/Thatcher polices with better PR. It didn’t work and that’s one reason we are where we are.
    Third way worked better than eliminating programs entirely, or cutting them even more than they were.
    Why do socialists get a pass for not being able to convince the voters to elect them?
    novakant, as in foreign policy, absence doesn’t absolve people from responsibility.

90. bobbyp: And remember, Clinton was the slight winner of those voting and making under $50k/yr.
    I find a bit odd that the Democrats (or New Labour, if you like) get a free pass on this here when they just put a bit of lipstick on the pig:
    ***
    Third [way] was just a continuation of the Reagan/Thatcher polices with better PR. It didn’t work and that’s one reason we are where we are.
    Third way worked better than eliminating programs entirely, or cutting them even more than they were.
    Why do socialists get a pass for not being able to convince the voters to elect them?
    novakant, as in foreign policy, absence doesn’t absolve people from responsibility.

91. Sorry, I meant to identify italicized paragraph 2 and the rest of that italicized statement as novakant’s.

92. Sorry, I meant to identify italicized paragraph 2 and the rest of that italicized statement as novakant’s.

93. “people are no longer satisfied by being told what to do by people who don’t know what they go through. you fighting this is part of the problem.”
    No one is fighting this, unless you presume that men of good conscience should not run for office because they don’t understand what women are going through. Somebody has to represent a reasonably diverse group of people. Assuming a man, or a white man , is less able to do this is just as bad as assuming a woman cant. It is the Dem talking point to retain their base, in perfect collusion with the Rs talking points to create the Rovian 51% view of winning elections. Someone has to be defined as the other to distrust.

94. “people are no longer satisfied by being told what to do by people who don’t know what they go through. you fighting this is part of the problem.”
    No one is fighting this, unless you presume that men of good conscience should not run for office because they don’t understand what women are going through. Somebody has to represent a reasonably diverse group of people. Assuming a man, or a white man , is less able to do this is just as bad as assuming a woman cant. It is the Dem talking point to retain their base, in perfect collusion with the Rs talking points to create the Rovian 51% view of winning elections. Someone has to be defined as the other to distrust.

95. The CEO of the global corporation isn’t emotionally tied to the good of any set of workers. They mostly just manage brands and spreadsheets, or PDF versions of dashboards.
    Correct, in my experience.
    Owning a home or a car is old fashioned, the access economy purposefully belittles our accomplishments while convincing people that driving a cab for 9 dollars an hour and no benefits while providing the car is an economic good. Or a leg up somehow. That everyone should be involved in some tech startup while fewer people are starting companies than in decades.
    I agree with all of this.
    The list of large and small insults to a life we worked hard to create is long, and disheartening.
    Who is this “we” you speak of, kemosabe? Nobody works hard except old white guys?
    Times are tough on everyone. I don’t understand why “old white men” think this experience is unique to them, or why they think they are being singled out.
    I’m not hating on old white guys, because I am one, but talking about old white men as a distinct group within the overall population, with distinct issues, interests, and complaints, *is identity politics*. That is not to de-legitimize it, because it’s completely legitimate for any group of people to advocate for their interests. But it is not a different thing than “women’s groups” or “the black caucus” or “the freedom caucus” or anybody else doing the same.
    We’d make a lot more progress if “old white men” who think they are being left behind – not an unreasonable perception, because they are – would recognize that they have common cause with a lot of the folks they have issues with.

96. The CEO of the global corporation isn’t emotionally tied to the good of any set of workers. They mostly just manage brands and spreadsheets, or PDF versions of dashboards.
    Correct, in my experience.
    Owning a home or a car is old fashioned, the access economy purposefully belittles our accomplishments while convincing people that driving a cab for 9 dollars an hour and no benefits while providing the car is an economic good. Or a leg up somehow. That everyone should be involved in some tech startup while fewer people are starting companies than in decades.
    I agree with all of this.
    The list of large and small insults to a life we worked hard to create is long, and disheartening.
    Who is this “we” you speak of, kemosabe? Nobody works hard except old white guys?
    Times are tough on everyone. I don’t understand why “old white men” think this experience is unique to them, or why they think they are being singled out.
    I’m not hating on old white guys, because I am one, but talking about old white men as a distinct group within the overall population, with distinct issues, interests, and complaints, *is identity politics*. That is not to de-legitimize it, because it’s completely legitimate for any group of people to advocate for their interests. But it is not a different thing than “women’s groups” or “the black caucus” or “the freedom caucus” or anybody else doing the same.
    We’d make a lot more progress if “old white men” who think they are being left behind – not an unreasonable perception, because they are – would recognize that they have common cause with a lot of the folks they have issues with.

97. Also, thanks for your comments here Marty, I appreciate your willingness to step up and take the heat.

98. Also, thanks for your comments here Marty, I appreciate your willingness to step up and take the heat.

99. Assuming a man, or a white man , is less able to do this is just as bad as assuming a woman cant.
    The problem might be that we’re not talking about *a* white man. Congress is a large enough group of people to reasonably reflect the nation’s diversity, but it doesn’t, at least not very proportionately.
    I don’t think anyone is suggesting barring white men from serving in congress.

100. Assuming a man, or a white man , is less able to do this is just as bad as assuming a woman cant.
     The problem might be that we’re not talking about *a* white man. Congress is a large enough group of people to reasonably reflect the nation’s diversity, but it doesn’t, at least not very proportionately.
     I don’t think anyone is suggesting barring white men from serving in congress.

101. The list of large and small insults to a life we worked hard to create is long, and disheartening.
     Good that you have so many people in government who know exactly what you are going through so that they can legislate on your behalf.
     old white guys are tired of being defined as the bad guy. Just as your link portrays.
     cleek’s link portrays a bunch of old white men, some of whom have been named in public court records as wife abusers, voting to take away funding for women’s healthcare.
     Cry me a river, Marty.

102. The list of large and small insults to a life we worked hard to create is long, and disheartening.
     Good that you have so many people in government who know exactly what you are going through so that they can legislate on your behalf.
     old white guys are tired of being defined as the bad guy. Just as your link portrays.
     cleek’s link portrays a bunch of old white men, some of whom have been named in public court records as wife abusers, voting to take away funding for women’s healthcare.
     Cry me a river, Marty.

103. Somebody has to represent a reasonably diverse group of people.
     right. but should our representatives be such a homogeneous group?
     for example, women only make up a fifth of Congress.
     guess what: some of them feel that’s not quite ideal.
     and given the Freedom&rtade; Caucus’ particular ideological bent, the idea that that particular group of old white men should be deciding what’s best for all the non-OWM in the country rankles.

104. Somebody has to represent a reasonably diverse group of people.
     right. but should our representatives be such a homogeneous group?
     for example, women only make up a fifth of Congress.
     guess what: some of them feel that’s not quite ideal.
     and given the Freedom&rtade; Caucus’ particular ideological bent, the idea that that particular group of old white men should be deciding what’s best for all the non-OWM in the country rankles.

105. the idea that that particular group of old white men partisan representatives should be deciding what’s best for all the non-OWM women in the country rankles.

106. the idea that that particular group of old white men partisan representatives should be deciding what’s best for all the non-OWM women in the country rankles.

107. and everybody else is tired of listening to the people with all the power complaining that they’re being asked to share some of that power.
     old white guys and their traditions aren’t being automatically respected anymore? now we know how the rest of the world feels!
     Straw man (men). No one is saying this. It’s a bedtime story told to justify seeing everything in terms of gender, color, orientation and “culture”. Hint: Muslim is not an ethnic group, it’s a religion.

108. and everybody else is tired of listening to the people with all the power complaining that they’re being asked to share some of that power.
     old white guys and their traditions aren’t being automatically respected anymore? now we know how the rest of the world feels!
     Straw man (men). No one is saying this. It’s a bedtime story told to justify seeing everything in terms of gender, color, orientation and “culture”. Hint: Muslim is not an ethnic group, it’s a religion.

109. No one is saying this.
     i said it.

110. No one is saying this.
     i said it.

111. It’s a bedtime story told to justify seeing everything in terms of gender, color, orientation and “culture”.
     But that’s not a strawman, I guess. And to the extent that the meanies on the left do see things in those terms, it’s in reaction to the people who decided that certain genders, colors, orientations and cultures were inferior to others. You can thank those people for “identity politics.”

112. It’s a bedtime story told to justify seeing everything in terms of gender, color, orientation and “culture”.
     But that’s not a strawman, I guess. And to the extent that the meanies on the left do see things in those terms, it’s in reaction to the people who decided that certain genders, colors, orientations and cultures were inferior to others. You can thank those people for “identity politics.”

113. the idea that that particular group of old white men partisan representatives should be deciding what’s best for all the non-OWM women in the country rankles.
     those partisan representatives are all from a single demographic, one that is over-represented in Congress.

114. the idea that that particular group of old white men partisan representatives should be deciding what’s best for all the non-OWM women in the country rankles.
     those partisan representatives are all from a single demographic, one that is over-represented in Congress.

115. “Hint: Muslim is not an ethnic group, it’s a religion.”
     The implication here is, well, I am not sure what it is for McKT. But I have seen people argue that Islamophobia isn’t racism because being Muslim isn’t a race. True, but bigots for the most part aren’t acting on a logical system of thought. This is why sometimes Sikhs or other non-Muslims are attacked by Islamophobes–they “look” Muslim.
     Also, antisemitism is similar–for some anti-semites Jews are a race (and sometimes non-racists argue about whether Jews or many Jews have a common ancestry going back to the eastern Mediterranean). For others they hate the religion and for many it sort of sloshes back and forth between hating Judaism and its practitioners and hating Jews as an alleged race. Converting to Christianity didn’t always save (former) Jews from persecution.
     There is nothing necessarily wrong with criticizing any religion( or other ideology) for its tendencies to produce some sort of really bad behavior. Terrorism, for instance, or antisemitism. Or self-righteous crusades or settlement activity and land theft. In that last case obviously I am thinking of both rightwing Jews and Christian Zionists, but I bring this up not because it is one of my hobbyhorses, but because it is also a good point. There is nothing wrong with criticizing Christians and Jews who use their religion to justify some form of nasty behavior and you can also go into what aspects of the religion encourage that, but people who obsess about the evils of Islam or of Judaism (not so much Christianity since even the “New Atheists” like to bash Islam much more) are rightly suspected of having more than a concern for human rights on their mind. (And these days the bashers of Islam and the bashers of Judaism are often different groups, though there is some overlap. The Trump Administration has some Muslim bashers on the one hand and some who hate both. I think the “bash Muslims only” camp is winning at the moment.)

116. “Hint: Muslim is not an ethnic group, it’s a religion.”
     The implication here is, well, I am not sure what it is for McKT. But I have seen people argue that Islamophobia isn’t racism because being Muslim isn’t a race. True, but bigots for the most part aren’t acting on a logical system of thought. This is why sometimes Sikhs or other non-Muslims are attacked by Islamophobes–they “look” Muslim.
     Also, antisemitism is similar–for some anti-semites Jews are a race (and sometimes non-racists argue about whether Jews or many Jews have a common ancestry going back to the eastern Mediterranean). For others they hate the religion and for many it sort of sloshes back and forth between hating Judaism and its practitioners and hating Jews as an alleged race. Converting to Christianity didn’t always save (former) Jews from persecution.
     There is nothing necessarily wrong with criticizing any religion( or other ideology) for its tendencies to produce some sort of really bad behavior. Terrorism, for instance, or antisemitism. Or self-righteous crusades or settlement activity and land theft. In that last case obviously I am thinking of both rightwing Jews and Christian Zionists, but I bring this up not because it is one of my hobbyhorses, but because it is also a good point. There is nothing wrong with criticizing Christians and Jews who use their religion to justify some form of nasty behavior and you can also go into what aspects of the religion encourage that, but people who obsess about the evils of Islam or of Judaism (not so much Christianity since even the “New Atheists” like to bash Islam much more) are rightly suspected of having more than a concern for human rights on their mind. (And these days the bashers of Islam and the bashers of Judaism are often different groups, though there is some overlap. The Trump Administration has some Muslim bashers on the one hand and some who hate both. I think the “bash Muslims only” camp is winning at the moment.)

117. “right. but should our representatives be such a homogeneous group? ”
     Not necessarily, but outside barring men from running for office I believe this is a local issue. statewide for the Senators and local for the reps. So blaming the people who ran and won seems disingenuous.

118. “right. but should our representatives be such a homogeneous group? ”
     Not necessarily, but outside barring men from running for office I believe this is a local issue. statewide for the Senators and local for the reps. So blaming the people who ran and won seems disingenuous.

119. So blaming the people who ran and won seems disingenuous.
     What about the power structures that are in place ensuring that such people continue to run and win? And can we blame the people who run and win for the things they do in office? Is it not possible to see certain patterns among groups such as the (almost) all-white, all-male Freedom Caucus?

120. So blaming the people who ran and won seems disingenuous.
     What about the power structures that are in place ensuring that such people continue to run and win? And can we blame the people who run and win for the things they do in office? Is it not possible to see certain patterns among groups such as the (almost) all-white, all-male Freedom Caucus?

121. So blaming the people who ran and won seems disingenuous.
     i haven’t heard anyone do that. but people are saying “this room full of old white men deciding what’s best for women’s health is a perfect example of how screwed up this country (and especially the GOP) is.”
     absolutely, more women need to run for office. and people should probably vote for more of the women who do run.
     side note: currently 3/4 of all women in Congress are Democrats.

122. So blaming the people who ran and won seems disingenuous.
     i haven’t heard anyone do that. but people are saying “this room full of old white men deciding what’s best for women’s health is a perfect example of how screwed up this country (and especially the GOP) is.”
     absolutely, more women need to run for office. and people should probably vote for more of the women who do run.
     side note: currently 3/4 of all women in Congress are Democrats.

123. “blaming the people who ran and won seems disingenuous.”
     I’m perfectly okay with holding the people who VOTED FOR the OWM that currently infest politics to blame for the situation.
     But of course, they’re just reacting to 250 years of OWM being under the heel of those “other people”, amirite?

124. “blaming the people who ran and won seems disingenuous.”
     I’m perfectly okay with holding the people who VOTED FOR the OWM that currently infest politics to blame for the situation.
     But of course, they’re just reacting to 250 years of OWM being under the heel of those “other people”, amirite?

125. “but should our representatives be such a homogeneous group?”
     Not necessarily, but outside barring men from running for office I believe this is a local issue. statewide for the Senators and local for the reps. So blaming the people who ran and won seems disingenuous.
     Fortunately, nobody much is suggesting barring any particular group from running for office. (Outside a very few on the extreme right getting exercised about Muslim elected officials. And, less out-right, working to minimize blacks from political activity.)
     I thought Marty also made a good point above, that it is not unreasonable to expect elected officials to represent the interests of all of their constituents. There is no reason to assume that they cannot. Although, admittedly, some (from various groups) seem to have huge blind-spots concerning some of their constituents.
     Just a little factoid from California. The substantial majority of Californians live in Southern California. Yet for the past couple of decades, our Senators were both . . . Jewish women from San Francisco.** I had serious philosophical disagreements with Senator Boxer, but it wasn’t because she was excessively representing just the interests of her gender or religion.
     Incidentally, since the last election, we have replaced Senator Boxer with a black woman . . . from San Francisco. Maybe LA should be outraged? Personally, I’m just glad to have someone less far left in the Senate.
     ** Oh yes, and our Governor is an old white guy . . . also from Northern California. Also the Lt. Governor is an old white guy . . . from San Francisco. LA just can’t catch a break!

126. “but should our representatives be such a homogeneous group?”
     Not necessarily, but outside barring men from running for office I believe this is a local issue. statewide for the Senators and local for the reps. So blaming the people who ran and won seems disingenuous.
     Fortunately, nobody much is suggesting barring any particular group from running for office. (Outside a very few on the extreme right getting exercised about Muslim elected officials. And, less out-right, working to minimize blacks from political activity.)
     I thought Marty also made a good point above, that it is not unreasonable to expect elected officials to represent the interests of all of their constituents. There is no reason to assume that they cannot. Although, admittedly, some (from various groups) seem to have huge blind-spots concerning some of their constituents.
     Just a little factoid from California. The substantial majority of Californians live in Southern California. Yet for the past couple of decades, our Senators were both . . . Jewish women from San Francisco.** I had serious philosophical disagreements with Senator Boxer, but it wasn’t because she was excessively representing just the interests of her gender or religion.
     Incidentally, since the last election, we have replaced Senator Boxer with a black woman . . . from San Francisco. Maybe LA should be outraged? Personally, I’m just glad to have someone less far left in the Senate.
     ** Oh yes, and our Governor is an old white guy . . . also from Northern California. Also the Lt. Governor is an old white guy . . . from San Francisco. LA just can’t catch a break!

127. “What about the power structures that are in place ensuring that such people continue to run and win? And can we blame the people who run and win for the things they do in office? Is it not possible to see certain patterns among groups such as the (almost) all-white, all-male Freedom Caucus?”
     In order:
     All parties are now looking for qualified diverse candidates that they believe can win. The party power structures at least don’t tend to favor white males.
     Male or female, white or black, yada yada they should be held accountable,
     This includes groups of partisans such as the Freedom Caucus who should be held accountable for their positions. But there are people, specifically owm, that disagree with their positions vehemently.

128. “What about the power structures that are in place ensuring that such people continue to run and win? And can we blame the people who run and win for the things they do in office? Is it not possible to see certain patterns among groups such as the (almost) all-white, all-male Freedom Caucus?”
     In order:
     All parties are now looking for qualified diverse candidates that they believe can win. The party power structures at least don’t tend to favor white males.
     Male or female, white or black, yada yada they should be held accountable,
     This includes groups of partisans such as the Freedom Caucus who should be held accountable for their positions. But there are people, specifically owm, that disagree with their positions vehemently.

129. But there are people, specifically owm, that disagree with their positions vehemently.
     Maybe they should quit voting for them in droves then. Also, some OWM are my best friends.

130. But there are people, specifically owm, that disagree with their positions vehemently.
     Maybe they should quit voting for them in droves then. Also, some OWM are my best friends.

131. Boxer was “far left”? That’s a hoot. Maybe somebody should tell that to “the Left”. As a member, I hate being left out.

132. Boxer was “far left”? That’s a hoot. Maybe somebody should tell that to “the Left”. As a member, I hate being left out.

133. In fairness, wj wrote “less far left.” Anyone to anyone else’s right is less far left than the other, regardless of either person’s absolute position.

134. In fairness, wj wrote “less far left.” Anyone to anyone else’s right is less far left than the other, regardless of either person’s absolute position.

135. the access economy purposefully belittles our accomplishments while convincing people that driving a cab for 9 dollars an hour and no benefits while providing the car is an economic good.
     Marty. Just who or what is driving the spreading “gig economy”? It certainly is not your standard issue Democrats or union thugs now, is it?
     This trend is admired by the political party you support.
     So, why do you continue to support that party? So we can have means tested Social Security? How will doing that reverse what you see as the disappearance of “your accomplishments”?
     It will do nothing.

136. the access economy purposefully belittles our accomplishments while convincing people that driving a cab for 9 dollars an hour and no benefits while providing the car is an economic good.
     Marty. Just who or what is driving the spreading “gig economy”? It certainly is not your standard issue Democrats or union thugs now, is it?
     This trend is admired by the political party you support.
     So, why do you continue to support that party? So we can have means tested Social Security? How will doing that reverse what you see as the disappearance of “your accomplishments”?
     It will do nothing.

137. Boxer was “far left”? That’s a hoot. Maybe somebody should tell that to “the Left”.
     Well *I* thought she was pretty far left. But then, although some here beg leave to doubt it, I think I’m somewhat conservative. That might color my perception.
     But certainly she was substantially further left than, for example, Senator Feinstein or Governor Brown. Both of whom are regarded as distinctly left of center — at least by those in the rather moderate area where I live (which has a moderate Republican woman and a moderate, albeit anti-public-sector-union-strikes, Democratic owm in the state legislature, plus an owm Democrat in Congress).

138. Boxer was “far left”? That’s a hoot. Maybe somebody should tell that to “the Left”.
     Well *I* thought she was pretty far left. But then, although some here beg leave to doubt it, I think I’m somewhat conservative. That might color my perception.
     But certainly she was substantially further left than, for example, Senator Feinstein or Governor Brown. Both of whom are regarded as distinctly left of center — at least by those in the rather moderate area where I live (which has a moderate Republican woman and a moderate, albeit anti-public-sector-union-strikes, Democratic owm in the state legislature, plus an owm Democrat in Congress).

139. “Marty. Just who or what is driving the spreading “gig economy”? It certainly is not your standard issue Democrats or union thugs now, is it? ”
     No. it is very much supported by the Dems. The gig economy is the marketing brainchild of the Dems who wanted to support Ubers displacement of those horrible taxi companies that achieved a monopoly by spending millions on medallions, background checks, bribes and contract fees.
     There is no purer example of the Dems desire to reduce the working person to a wage slave than their ecstasy at disrupting “big” business on the backs of unprotected workers and selling it as entrepreneurial progress. Freedom from those enslavers to work for a three person company worth 50 billion(not sure what those numbers are exactly today).

140. “Marty. Just who or what is driving the spreading “gig economy”? It certainly is not your standard issue Democrats or union thugs now, is it? ”
     No. it is very much supported by the Dems. The gig economy is the marketing brainchild of the Dems who wanted to support Ubers displacement of those horrible taxi companies that achieved a monopoly by spending millions on medallions, background checks, bribes and contract fees.
     There is no purer example of the Dems desire to reduce the working person to a wage slave than their ecstasy at disrupting “big” business on the backs of unprotected workers and selling it as entrepreneurial progress. Freedom from those enslavers to work for a three person company worth 50 billion(not sure what those numbers are exactly today).

141. There is no purer example of the Dems desire to reduce the working person to a wage slave than their ecstasy at disrupting “big” business on the backs of unprotected workers and selling it as entrepreneurial progress.
     Despite the abject fantasy of the first half of this sentence, there is a nugget here. The relative stability of corporate jobs (line and management) I would guess has declined precipitously over the past 30-40 years. In that while it was likely never the case most people only worked for one company their entire life, working for only 2-3 was probably very common.
     Now, you have a global marketplace for M&A (along with little to no anti-trust enforcement in the US), plus disruptions by the tech industry (which also concentrates wealth in a few hands due to rapid growth) and lots of people who in the 50s, 60s, 70s, would have had stable employment for most of their adult lives, are suddenly subject to unpredictable bouts of unemployment through no fault of their own. These are very disruptive, hard to get through and deplete savings, and the lost wages/position in the company is rarely made up for in the following years.
     Not sure why that set of facts would lead to votes for the current GOP though.

142. There is no purer example of the Dems desire to reduce the working person to a wage slave than their ecstasy at disrupting “big” business on the backs of unprotected workers and selling it as entrepreneurial progress.
     Despite the abject fantasy of the first half of this sentence, there is a nugget here. The relative stability of corporate jobs (line and management) I would guess has declined precipitously over the past 30-40 years. In that while it was likely never the case most people only worked for one company their entire life, working for only 2-3 was probably very common.
     Now, you have a global marketplace for M&A (along with little to no anti-trust enforcement in the US), plus disruptions by the tech industry (which also concentrates wealth in a few hands due to rapid growth) and lots of people who in the 50s, 60s, 70s, would have had stable employment for most of their adult lives, are suddenly subject to unpredictable bouts of unemployment through no fault of their own. These are very disruptive, hard to get through and deplete savings, and the lost wages/position in the company is rarely made up for in the following years.
     Not sure why that set of facts would lead to votes for the current GOP though.

143. Globally mobile capital while globally sticky labor also contributes to decline of US working class.

144. Globally mobile capital while globally sticky labor also contributes to decline of US working class.

145. The gig economy is the marketing brainchild of the Dems who wanted to support Ubers displacement of those horrible taxi companies that achieved a monopoly by spending millions on medallions, background checks, bribes and contract fees.
     [citation required]

146. The gig economy is the marketing brainchild of the Dems who wanted to support Ubers displacement of those horrible taxi companies that achieved a monopoly by spending millions on medallions, background checks, bribes and contract fees.
     [citation required]

147. The gig economy is the marketing brainchild of the Dems who wanted to support Ubers displacement of those horrible taxi companies that achieved a monopoly by spending millions on medallions, background checks, bribes and contract fees.
     huh?

148. The gig economy is the marketing brainchild of the Dems who wanted to support Ubers displacement of those horrible taxi companies that achieved a monopoly by spending millions on medallions, background checks, bribes and contract fees.
     huh?

149. I, for one, welcome our new insect Uber-lords.

150. I, for one, welcome our new insect Uber-lords.

151. I can only cite my 20 or 30 Dem friends who are C-level officers of unicorns in MA/Silicon Valley. So, because I said so. Which I realize it is not very good backup. Is what it is.

152. I can only cite my 20 or 30 Dem friends who are C-level officers of unicorns in MA/Silicon Valley. So, because I said so. Which I realize it is not very good backup. Is what it is.

153. the tech industry (which also concentrates wealth in a few hands due to rapid growth)
     I would say that the computer industry concentrates wealth due to a combination of significant first-mover advantage and a substantial incentive towards common applications (so all users can communicate with each other). Rapid growth in itself is not, I think, that significant a factor.
     The result of those advantages is a lot of software where there is only one major vendor — with the same sort of monopoly/oligopoly rents that we see in other monopolistic industries.

154. the tech industry (which also concentrates wealth in a few hands due to rapid growth)
     I would say that the computer industry concentrates wealth due to a combination of significant first-mover advantage and a substantial incentive towards common applications (so all users can communicate with each other). Rapid growth in itself is not, I think, that significant a factor.
     The result of those advantages is a lot of software where there is only one major vendor — with the same sort of monopoly/oligopoly rents that we see in other monopolistic industries.

155. I can only cite my 20 or 30 Dem friends who are C-level officers of unicorns in MA/Silicon Valley. So, because I said so. Which I realize it is not very good backup. Is what it is.
     So “Dems” is really “the tiny select group Dems I had in my head but didn’t mention” and not, say, what I think other people on this blog might think of as “Dems”, such as people identifying as Democrats, the Democratic party writ-large, or the Democrats in Congress.
     You really need to add those qualifiers in when you say sh1t like that Marty, otherwise I start to wonder what color the sky is in your and Cliff Clavin’s world.

156. I can only cite my 20 or 30 Dem friends who are C-level officers of unicorns in MA/Silicon Valley. So, because I said so. Which I realize it is not very good backup. Is what it is.
     So “Dems” is really “the tiny select group Dems I had in my head but didn’t mention” and not, say, what I think other people on this blog might think of as “Dems”, such as people identifying as Democrats, the Democratic party writ-large, or the Democrats in Congress.
     You really need to add those qualifiers in when you say sh1t like that Marty, otherwise I start to wonder what color the sky is in your and Cliff Clavin’s world.

157. Let’s be clear, the Dems I know spend time working on apps to help the Dems build databases, apps, and work directly with Elizabeth Warren and her son to map communications strategy for next year. These are not just “a tiny select group of Dems I know”. But, I also know that from a top level party point it is less clear.

158. Let’s be clear, the Dems I know spend time working on apps to help the Dems build databases, apps, and work directly with Elizabeth Warren and her son to map communications strategy for next year. These are not just “a tiny select group of Dems I know”. But, I also know that from a top level party point it is less clear.

159. And they want everyone to be wage slaves?

160. And they want everyone to be wage slaves?

161. Si Valley tech execs are mostly Techno-utopian Libertarians who don’t mind a bit of charity to keep the indigenes from insurrection.
     And re:So Cal not being upset that Kamala Harris won…Loretta Sanchez is just up the road, but she looked entirely out of her depth during the debate with Harris.
     (Though I would have voted for Sanchez had she been running against Feinstein whatever her performance in the debate. Feinstein’s fight/fold issues seem to be the exact opposite of mine most of the time.)

162. Si Valley tech execs are mostly Techno-utopian Libertarians who don’t mind a bit of charity to keep the indigenes from insurrection.
     And re:So Cal not being upset that Kamala Harris won…Loretta Sanchez is just up the road, but she looked entirely out of her depth during the debate with Harris.
     (Though I would have voted for Sanchez had she been running against Feinstein whatever her performance in the debate. Feinstein’s fight/fold issues seem to be the exact opposite of mine most of the time.)

163. Elizabeth Warren is no friend of the gig economy.
     http://fortune.com/2016/05/20/uber-lyft-elizabeth-warren/

     “The much-touted virtues of flexibility, independence, and creativity offered by gig work might be true for some workers under some conditions,” Warren said, “but for many, the gig economy is simply the next step in a losing effort to build some economic security in a world where all the benefits are floating to the top 10%.”

164. Elizabeth Warren is no friend of the gig economy.
     http://fortune.com/2016/05/20/uber-lyft-elizabeth-warren/

     “The much-touted virtues of flexibility, independence, and creativity offered by gig work might be true for some workers under some conditions,” Warren said, “but for many, the gig economy is simply the next step in a losing effort to build some economic security in a world where all the benefits are floating to the top 10%.”

165. Ugh,
     They don’t think of it that way. They think of it as the new normal with everyone marketing themselves to create their next gig. But the reality is there is a pretty small group of people that are competent or interested in competing by constantly marketing themselves.
     The rest of the people end up with the bottom end gigs and essentially are the cheap labor force for these new reality guys that think business the way it was/is should be replaced or regulated to limit the expansion that is necessary to create high paying actual jobs.
     So they are the new face of corporate greed. And every one of them is a Democrat, mostly volunteering to be taxed more, but not too much more.
     The sky ain’t f’ing rose colored.

166. Ugh,
     They don’t think of it that way. They think of it as the new normal with everyone marketing themselves to create their next gig. But the reality is there is a pretty small group of people that are competent or interested in competing by constantly marketing themselves.
     The rest of the people end up with the bottom end gigs and essentially are the cheap labor force for these new reality guys that think business the way it was/is should be replaced or regulated to limit the expansion that is necessary to create high paying actual jobs.
     So they are the new face of corporate greed. And every one of them is a Democrat, mostly volunteering to be taxed more, but not too much more.
     The sky ain’t f’ing rose colored.

167. One more thing, they are for regulating everything except them. They are the disruptors so they should be able to avoid all historical regulations, anti trust laws, HR regs, etc. because they have a “different” business model.

168. One more thing, they are for regulating everything except them. They are the disruptors so they should be able to avoid all historical regulations, anti trust laws, HR regs, etc. because they have a “different” business model.

169. But certainly she was substantially further left than, for example, Senator Feinstein or Governor Brown.

170. But certainly she was substantially further left than, for example, Senator Feinstein or Governor Brown.

171. This sounds like a non-representative sample of Democrats.

172. This sounds like a non-representative sample of Democrats.

173. Italics?

174. Italics?

175. could be hsh, I live in the world I live in.

176. could be hsh, I live in the world I live in.

177. I live in the world I live in.
     I don’t doubt that for one minute, but that is no excuse for not nosing about a bit and verifying that “Democrats” support the gig economy…which, by the way, they do not. This is not to say there are NO Democrats who have bought into this BS. They exist. So do anti-abortion Democrats, and Democrats who support charter schools.
     But in the bigger scheme of things? I would tend (with a substantial degree of certainty) to think not.

178. I live in the world I live in.
     I don’t doubt that for one minute, but that is no excuse for not nosing about a bit and verifying that “Democrats” support the gig economy…which, by the way, they do not. This is not to say there are NO Democrats who have bought into this BS. They exist. So do anti-abortion Democrats, and Democrats who support charter schools.
     But in the bigger scheme of things? I would tend (with a substantial degree of certainty) to think not.

179. the Dems i know aren’t like that: teachers, nurses, scientists, blacksmiths, photographers, retirees, handymen, etc..
     and personally, i think Uber’s business model is such a transparently phony attempt to get around taxi laws that it should have been shut down in its first week. i don’t have a need for it, but i’m not sure i’d use it if i did – the whole thing feels scummy to me.

180. the Dems i know aren’t like that: teachers, nurses, scientists, blacksmiths, photographers, retirees, handymen, etc..
     and personally, i think Uber’s business model is such a transparently phony attempt to get around taxi laws that it should have been shut down in its first week. i don’t have a need for it, but i’m not sure i’d use it if i did – the whole thing feels scummy to me.

181. personally, i think Uber’s business model is such a transparently phony attempt to get around taxi laws that it should have been shut down in its first week.
     Personally, I think the taxi medallion system is such a transparent attempt to restrict competition (and so provide high rents to medallion owners, not actual taxi drivers) that IT should have been shut down long since.

182. personally, i think Uber’s business model is such a transparently phony attempt to get around taxi laws that it should have been shut down in its first week.
     Personally, I think the taxi medallion system is such a transparent attempt to restrict competition (and so provide high rents to medallion owners, not actual taxi drivers) that IT should have been shut down long since.

183. “I don’t doubt that for one minute, but that is no excuse for not nosing about a bit and verifying that “Democrats” support the gig economy..”
     I don’t know bobby, the people I am talking about were the loudest supporters of Clinton on all my feeds. They are ardent Democrats whose support both financially and in time for Dems across the ticket matches the political involvement of anyone I know. So I give myself a pass if there is not broadbase support at the top end of the party, as these people represent that in MA as far as I am concerned.

184. “I don’t doubt that for one minute, but that is no excuse for not nosing about a bit and verifying that “Democrats” support the gig economy..”
     I don’t know bobby, the people I am talking about were the loudest supporters of Clinton on all my feeds. They are ardent Democrats whose support both financially and in time for Dems across the ticket matches the political involvement of anyone I know. So I give myself a pass if there is not broadbase support at the top end of the party, as these people represent that in MA as far as I am concerned.

185. Uber and Lyft’s app system is an extremely convenient way to get a ride somewhere in towns where taxis aren’t easily available. I try taxis first, but sometimes have better luck with an app. There’s no reason why taxis can’t implement a better system to make sure people can get transportation.
     As for the gig economy, full-time work with benefits is preferable for most people, but some people need flexibility more than set working hours, and are happy that some situations will accommodate that. People also are happy to be able to make some extra cash with air b&b, etc.
     If these systems are helpful to people, our lawmakers (federal and local) have to be more nimble about making sure that people are appropriately remunerated. I don’t think that nostalgia is helpful in figuring out how to manage a changing world.

186. Uber and Lyft’s app system is an extremely convenient way to get a ride somewhere in towns where taxis aren’t easily available. I try taxis first, but sometimes have better luck with an app. There’s no reason why taxis can’t implement a better system to make sure people can get transportation.
     As for the gig economy, full-time work with benefits is preferable for most people, but some people need flexibility more than set working hours, and are happy that some situations will accommodate that. People also are happy to be able to make some extra cash with air b&b, etc.
     If these systems are helpful to people, our lawmakers (federal and local) have to be more nimble about making sure that people are appropriately remunerated. I don’t think that nostalgia is helpful in figuring out how to manage a changing world.

187. The gig economy is the marketing brainchild of the Dems…
     I can only cite my 20 or 30 Dem friends who are C-level officers of unicorns in MA/Silicon Valley.
     OK, now I understand what was confusing me.
     When people talk about “Dems” and public policy, I assume they are talking about people holding public office. Or, at least, involved in some career-related way in making public policy.
     20 or 30 C-level unicorn tech company execs are not really a representative demographic. Of anything.
     You could probably find 20 hedge fund managers who vote (D), too, but I wouldn’t want them making financial policy.
     Conversely, I could probably find 20 or 30 C-level oil executives who all vote (R), but you wouldn’t want them making the rules about whether and where they can drill in your watershed. I wouldn’t think so, anyway.

188. The gig economy is the marketing brainchild of the Dems…
     I can only cite my 20 or 30 Dem friends who are C-level officers of unicorns in MA/Silicon Valley.
     OK, now I understand what was confusing me.
     When people talk about “Dems” and public policy, I assume they are talking about people holding public office. Or, at least, involved in some career-related way in making public policy.
     20 or 30 C-level unicorn tech company execs are not really a representative demographic. Of anything.
     You could probably find 20 hedge fund managers who vote (D), too, but I wouldn’t want them making financial policy.
     Conversely, I could probably find 20 or 30 C-level oil executives who all vote (R), but you wouldn’t want them making the rules about whether and where they can drill in your watershed. I wouldn’t think so, anyway.

189. Uber’s business model
     Uber’s business model is shifting all of the operational expense, risk, and workload to their drivers and customers, and putting the profit in their own pockets.
     Groovy app, though, from what folks tell me.

190. Uber’s business model
     Uber’s business model is shifting all of the operational expense, risk, and workload to their drivers and customers, and putting the profit in their own pockets.
     Groovy app, though, from what folks tell me.

191. I don’t think that nostalgia is helpful in figuring out how to manage a changing world.
     Here’s my solution:
     If you drive for Uber, you get equity, either in the form of profit sharing or an actual piece of the company.
     Flexibility etc are all lovely. Grown-ups can’t live on minimum wage.

192. I don’t think that nostalgia is helpful in figuring out how to manage a changing world.
     Here’s my solution:
     If you drive for Uber, you get equity, either in the form of profit sharing or an actual piece of the company.
     Flexibility etc are all lovely. Grown-ups can’t live on minimum wage.

193. My understanding (and I may be way off base) is that in most cases the guy who owns the taxi medallion isn’t the guy doing the driving. He’s just collecting the rent from the driver, and setting the fares. Likewise the driver isn’t on salary, he just has a permanent gig and gets to keep the fare (less the rent for the medallion, of course).
     Which doesn’t, if I’ve understood how things actually work, sound all that much different from what Uber’s drivers see.

194. My understanding (and I may be way off base) is that in most cases the guy who owns the taxi medallion isn’t the guy doing the driving. He’s just collecting the rent from the driver, and setting the fares. Likewise the driver isn’t on salary, he just has a permanent gig and gets to keep the fare (less the rent for the medallion, of course).
     Which doesn’t, if I’ve understood how things actually work, sound all that much different from what Uber’s drivers see.

195. “You could probably find 20 hedge fund managers who vote (D), too, but I wouldn’t want them making financial policy.”
     I do know 6 or 7 of these. They love the new economy because it creates volatility. Well, some of them. Depends on the fund. I know a bunch of wealth managers who are less happy with the volatility but have made a ton of money for their clients betting on new tech, like Microsoft.

196. “You could probably find 20 hedge fund managers who vote (D), too, but I wouldn’t want them making financial policy.”
     I do know 6 or 7 of these. They love the new economy because it creates volatility. Well, some of them. Depends on the fund. I know a bunch of wealth managers who are less happy with the volatility but have made a ton of money for their clients betting on new tech, like Microsoft.

197. Actually wj, in the taxi world there are full time jobs, lots with benefits, drivers earn shifts and fares through seniority and dependability, they have an actual person to talk to, they usually don’t own or have to pay for upkeep of the car, they are subject to background checks, they have a boss that if they get complaints they can defend themselves, and, there are some independents that work like you say. But every one of the medallions is maintained by meeting the state and local requirements for vehicle and driver safety. Along with a bunch of other things.
     History matters when the government has imposed a medallion requirement that has cost companies millions of dollars and then allowed their competition to operate without the regulations or upfront costs.

198. Actually wj, in the taxi world there are full time jobs, lots with benefits, drivers earn shifts and fares through seniority and dependability, they have an actual person to talk to, they usually don’t own or have to pay for upkeep of the car, they are subject to background checks, they have a boss that if they get complaints they can defend themselves, and, there are some independents that work like you say. But every one of the medallions is maintained by meeting the state and local requirements for vehicle and driver safety. Along with a bunch of other things.
     History matters when the government has imposed a medallion requirement that has cost companies millions of dollars and then allowed their competition to operate without the regulations or upfront costs.

199. Was it here that someone linked an article about the likes of Uber and Air B&B being the new rentiers?

200. Was it here that someone linked an article about the likes of Uber and Air B&B being the new rentiers?

201. Not on this thread, BTW – like a week or 2 ago.

202. Not on this thread, BTW – like a week or 2 ago.

203. I googled. This was it, whether I found it here or not.
     https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/30/wealth-banks-google-facebook-society-economy-parasites

204. I googled. This was it, whether I found it here or not.
     https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/30/wealth-banks-google-facebook-society-economy-parasites

205. Marty, thanks for the info on taxies.

206. Marty, thanks for the info on taxies.

207. If you drive for Uber, you get equity, either in the form of profit sharing or an actual piece of the company.
     Sounds fine with me. I don’t know of a city in Virginia where one can reliably get a taxi right away by flagging one, which means to me that not that many people are making a living driving a cab. Uber or Lyft are all over the place in smaller cities (like mine). It’s helpful to be able to go to a restaurant and have wine with dinner, and be able to get home (for example) without going to jail. The app is lovely, you’re right – it’s also become incredibly useful to people who live in areas without decent public transportation or taxis. If you live in an area (like NYC or maybe Boston, don’t know) where cabs are everywhere almost always, it’s not a big deal. Where I live, it is.
     History matters when the government has imposed a medallion requirement that has cost companies millions of dollars and then allowed their competition to operate without the regulations or upfront costs.
     I think this needs to be solved, and in areas which are served well by taxis, I don’t have a problem banning Uber or Lyft, or coming up with another solution that levels the playing field.

208. If you drive for Uber, you get equity, either in the form of profit sharing or an actual piece of the company.
     Sounds fine with me. I don’t know of a city in Virginia where one can reliably get a taxi right away by flagging one, which means to me that not that many people are making a living driving a cab. Uber or Lyft are all over the place in smaller cities (like mine). It’s helpful to be able to go to a restaurant and have wine with dinner, and be able to get home (for example) without going to jail. The app is lovely, you’re right – it’s also become incredibly useful to people who live in areas without decent public transportation or taxis. If you live in an area (like NYC or maybe Boston, don’t know) where cabs are everywhere almost always, it’s not a big deal. Where I live, it is.
     History matters when the government has imposed a medallion requirement that has cost companies millions of dollars and then allowed their competition to operate without the regulations or upfront costs.
     I think this needs to be solved, and in areas which are served well by taxis, I don’t have a problem banning Uber or Lyft, or coming up with another solution that levels the playing field.

209. What Marty said.
     I’m not all that familiar with taxi medallions, but I would assume they are awarded on a competitive bid basis, and thus there is a ‘return’ to the public treasury as “free market” price paid for the license should incorporate all costs. Thus, in theory, there should be nobody getting obscenely rich owning a taxi company.
     (I also understand that this setup arose from the fact that back in the good old days, the streets were flooded with gypsy cabs driven by broke drivers, much as in the those same golden olden days as wheat and corn farmers regularly over-produced themselves out of business.)
     I understand there is a similar setup for harbor tug boats.
     But then, this all goes out the window if you have corruption, etc. But that is a political problem, not an economic one.
     If we wanted to ‘free up’ the taxi market, then lay down some basic regulations regarding insurance, background checks, and training and sell a license to anybody who meets those requirements.
     If you want more cabs at your beck and call but do not want to impoverish drivers to do so, then taxis should be a regulated utility, just like any other form of public transportation.
     But the Uber model is simply a way to skim income off drivers.
     You know, everybody just loves the gig economy….until that is…something goes wrong, like the plumbing starting to leak, or you get electrocuted after that unlicensed “handyman” made those repairs for you on the cheap.
     People tend to forget that bureaucrats don’t sit around thinking up new regulations just to torture the public.
     Some group of upset folks went to their politicians and demanded that “something be done”.
     Just thought I’d throw those bombs out there.

210. What Marty said.
     I’m not all that familiar with taxi medallions, but I would assume they are awarded on a competitive bid basis, and thus there is a ‘return’ to the public treasury as “free market” price paid for the license should incorporate all costs. Thus, in theory, there should be nobody getting obscenely rich owning a taxi company.
     (I also understand that this setup arose from the fact that back in the good old days, the streets were flooded with gypsy cabs driven by broke drivers, much as in the those same golden olden days as wheat and corn farmers regularly over-produced themselves out of business.)
     I understand there is a similar setup for harbor tug boats.
     But then, this all goes out the window if you have corruption, etc. But that is a political problem, not an economic one.
     If we wanted to ‘free up’ the taxi market, then lay down some basic regulations regarding insurance, background checks, and training and sell a license to anybody who meets those requirements.
     If you want more cabs at your beck and call but do not want to impoverish drivers to do so, then taxis should be a regulated utility, just like any other form of public transportation.
     But the Uber model is simply a way to skim income off drivers.
     You know, everybody just loves the gig economy….until that is…something goes wrong, like the plumbing starting to leak, or you get electrocuted after that unlicensed “handyman” made those repairs for you on the cheap.
     People tend to forget that bureaucrats don’t sit around thinking up new regulations just to torture the public.
     Some group of upset folks went to their politicians and demanded that “something be done”.
     Just thought I’d throw those bombs out there.

211. Sapient (and others),
     If there are not enough cabs in your area, there is a free market solution: In technical terms it is called “raising the price”.
     If the dreaded automation dystopia arrives, and everybody has lots of leisure time (since we won’t have to be breaking our backs “making stuff”), then there may well be some folks who just like to drive around picking up passengers and helping them out. Can’t say how many. You never know.

212. Sapient (and others),
     If there are not enough cabs in your area, there is a free market solution: In technical terms it is called “raising the price”.
     If the dreaded automation dystopia arrives, and everybody has lots of leisure time (since we won’t have to be breaking our backs “making stuff”), then there may well be some folks who just like to drive around picking up passengers and helping them out. Can’t say how many. You never know.

213. Don’t those taxi companies exist because there is no public transportation to speak of? And who has been against upgrading public transport? (Excluding the small subset of Dems that are on Marty’s facebook feed)
     About economic opportunities
     https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/07/alton-sterling-eric-garner-and-the-double-standard-of-the-side-hustle/?utm_term=.986d3e9536e7
     Of course, pointing out the racism has Marty say that we are being unfair to old white men…

214. Don’t those taxi companies exist because there is no public transportation to speak of? And who has been against upgrading public transport? (Excluding the small subset of Dems that are on Marty’s facebook feed)
     About economic opportunities
     https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/07/alton-sterling-eric-garner-and-the-double-standard-of-the-side-hustle/?utm_term=.986d3e9536e7
     Of course, pointing out the racism has Marty say that we are being unfair to old white men…

215. If there are not enough cabs in your area, there is a free market solution: In technical terms it is called “raising the price”.
     The free market didn’t solve the problem before Uber and Lyft appeared in my town, so I guess it’s even more confirmation that the free market doesn’t work.

216. If there are not enough cabs in your area, there is a free market solution: In technical terms it is called “raising the price”.
     The free market didn’t solve the problem before Uber and Lyft appeared in my town, so I guess it’s even more confirmation that the free market doesn’t work.

217. The power of the wealthy was broken much more thoroughly in Europe (excluding Britain and Italy) than in America…
     And yet, the families controlling West Germany’s largest and richest corporations 20 years after the war were the same families controlling them before the war.

218. The power of the wealthy was broken much more thoroughly in Europe (excluding Britain and Italy) than in America…
     And yet, the families controlling West Germany’s largest and richest corporations 20 years after the war were the same families controlling them before the war.

219. I don’t know of a city in Virginia where one can reliably get a taxi right away by flagging one
     I have zero problem with smart, enterprising people creating value by filling unmet needs.
     the dynamics that make the kind of taxi market that exists in, frex, NYC, don’t exist everywhere.
     what I object to is the drivers not getting a slice.
     they are, after all, providing the vehicle and actually showing up and doing the driving.
     the thing that the consumer is actually paying for.

220. I don’t know of a city in Virginia where one can reliably get a taxi right away by flagging one
     I have zero problem with smart, enterprising people creating value by filling unmet needs.
     the dynamics that make the kind of taxi market that exists in, frex, NYC, don’t exist everywhere.
     what I object to is the drivers not getting a slice.
     they are, after all, providing the vehicle and actually showing up and doing the driving.
     the thing that the consumer is actually paying for.

221. The Republicans have ruthlessly pursued a policy of reducing wage labor to a commodity for decades. As was predictable to anyone capable of managing a C in high school economics, this has reduced worker bargaining power in wage negotiation, led to wage stagnation, and led to increased business profits.
     Democrats have half heartedly opposed this, but ultimately compromised with it.
     That’s the general way US politics works. The Republicans pursue policies that are literally evil, and Democrats half heartedly oppose them so long as the left keeps up pressure. See, e.g., net neutrality, etc.
     Then contemptible people try to use the half hearted nature of the Democrats opposition to the candidates and policies THEY SUPPORT as evidence of Democratic perfidy, as if we weren’t locked in a set of “either/or” choices, and as if it wasn’t obvious what they were doing.

222. The Republicans have ruthlessly pursued a policy of reducing wage labor to a commodity for decades. As was predictable to anyone capable of managing a C in high school economics, this has reduced worker bargaining power in wage negotiation, led to wage stagnation, and led to increased business profits.
     Democrats have half heartedly opposed this, but ultimately compromised with it.
     That’s the general way US politics works. The Republicans pursue policies that are literally evil, and Democrats half heartedly oppose them so long as the left keeps up pressure. See, e.g., net neutrality, etc.
     Then contemptible people try to use the half hearted nature of the Democrats opposition to the candidates and policies THEY SUPPORT as evidence of Democratic perfidy, as if we weren’t locked in a set of “either/or” choices, and as if it wasn’t obvious what they were doing.

223. And yet, the families controlling West Germany’s largest and richest corporations 20 years after the war were the same families controlling them before the war.
     That’s because of anti-communism, I think. The same thing happened in Japan with Reverse Course
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_course

224. And yet, the families controlling West Germany’s largest and richest corporations 20 years after the war were the same families controlling them before the war.
     That’s because of anti-communism, I think. The same thing happened in Japan with Reverse Course
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_course

225. what I object to is the drivers not getting a slice.
     We agree on this.
     Regarding my comment about flexible work though, workers need that too. Just saying – until childcare (for example) is easier to afford for lower income people (and child care workers need cash too!) mothers like to have options once their kids are in school.
     Uber, clearly, is a predatory business model, but it also works in a lot of ways, so figuring out how to make it better might be the answer to some of our problems.

226. what I object to is the drivers not getting a slice.
     We agree on this.
     Regarding my comment about flexible work though, workers need that too. Just saying – until childcare (for example) is easier to afford for lower income people (and child care workers need cash too!) mothers like to have options once their kids are in school.
     Uber, clearly, is a predatory business model, but it also works in a lot of ways, so figuring out how to make it better might be the answer to some of our problems.

227. The free market didn’t solve the problem before Uber and Lyft appeared in my town
     Well no. It did. There was not enough demand at the prices offered to enable the market to clear. What Uber does is eliminate a bunch of overhead: Central garages, dispatch offices, insurance, and licensing. They then squeeze the labor force by calling them “independent contractors”, producing more supply at lower prices.
     You could have almost as easily called the cab company previously. They most likely would have dispatched a cab. You might have had to wait a bit longer and pay a little more.
     But you didn’t want to.
     I look forward to the day when attorneys are eliminated or, on average, pulling down barely minimum wages due to a razzle dazzle “beat the rap” practice-your-own-law ap.
     My solution would be to let everybody who graduates from law school go into practice without having to take a bar exam. Or better yet, eliminate law schools entirely. Or let practicing attorneys from other nations come here and set up shop without restrictions.
     Buyer beware. The free market at its best!

228. The free market didn’t solve the problem before Uber and Lyft appeared in my town
     Well no. It did. There was not enough demand at the prices offered to enable the market to clear. What Uber does is eliminate a bunch of overhead: Central garages, dispatch offices, insurance, and licensing. They then squeeze the labor force by calling them “independent contractors”, producing more supply at lower prices.
     You could have almost as easily called the cab company previously. They most likely would have dispatched a cab. You might have had to wait a bit longer and pay a little more.
     But you didn’t want to.
     I look forward to the day when attorneys are eliminated or, on average, pulling down barely minimum wages due to a razzle dazzle “beat the rap” practice-your-own-law ap.
     My solution would be to let everybody who graduates from law school go into practice without having to take a bar exam. Or better yet, eliminate law schools entirely. Or let practicing attorneys from other nations come here and set up shop without restrictions.
     Buyer beware. The free market at its best!

229. My solution would be to let everybody who graduates from law school go into practice without having to take a bar exam. Or better yet, eliminate law schools entirely.
     Or, just for sheer novelty, make the bar exam have some relation to what is taught in law schools. Rather than have law school graduates have to turn around and spend a pile of money on “bar review courses” in order to pass the damn exam.
     Failing that, eliminate the requirement for a law school degree in order to take the bar exam. Just take the review course, since the exam is about what is actually necessary to do the job, right?

230. My solution would be to let everybody who graduates from law school go into practice without having to take a bar exam. Or better yet, eliminate law schools entirely.
     Or, just for sheer novelty, make the bar exam have some relation to what is taught in law schools. Rather than have law school graduates have to turn around and spend a pile of money on “bar review courses” in order to pass the damn exam.
     Failing that, eliminate the requirement for a law school degree in order to take the bar exam. Just take the review course, since the exam is about what is actually necessary to do the job, right?

231. I look forward to the day when attorneys are eliminated or, on average, pulling down barely minimum wages due to a razzle dazzle “beat the rap” practice-your-own-law ap.
     Clearly you don’t know many attorneys. If you knew some sole practitioners who represent school teachers in divorce and custody cases, you might not be as impressed with their economic privilege. By the way, I quit doing that, and did something else, for reasons that might be guessable.
     But you didn’t want to.
     No, people don’t want to wait for f’ing ever to get where they need to go.
     Let me tell you a story about cab service in Richmond, VA, in the ’90’s. There was a day on which I had two meetings, one in Richmond for lunch, and one in Irvington, VA, where I had to appear at 5:30. My car was towed during my luncheon meeting because I parked in a lot that was not clearly marked. I came out of my meeting at about 2, plenty of time to get to the other place. In fact, once I figured out what happened to the freaking car, I called a taxi to take me to the impoundment lot (no cell phones back then – a pay phone) but 1) the taxi service didn’t answer the phone, and 2) when they did (tick tock later) they told me it would a “awhile” before they could dispatch a taxi. Okay. I wasn’t living in Richmond at that time, but had lived there before, and knew that they had a skeletal bus service, So I took my chances and took a bus to the closest stop to the Midlothian Bridge, across which, and a walk further, was my car. Yes, I did that, and finally got there, not wearing hiking shoes, just so you know. I finally retrieved my car, paid the freaking fine, and got to my other meeting. Not quite on time.
     Just don’t give me lectures on my consumer choices. Thanks. You know what would have happened now? I would have gotten an Uber.

232. I look forward to the day when attorneys are eliminated or, on average, pulling down barely minimum wages due to a razzle dazzle “beat the rap” practice-your-own-law ap.
     Clearly you don’t know many attorneys. If you knew some sole practitioners who represent school teachers in divorce and custody cases, you might not be as impressed with their economic privilege. By the way, I quit doing that, and did something else, for reasons that might be guessable.
     But you didn’t want to.
     No, people don’t want to wait for f’ing ever to get where they need to go.
     Let me tell you a story about cab service in Richmond, VA, in the ’90’s. There was a day on which I had two meetings, one in Richmond for lunch, and one in Irvington, VA, where I had to appear at 5:30. My car was towed during my luncheon meeting because I parked in a lot that was not clearly marked. I came out of my meeting at about 2, plenty of time to get to the other place. In fact, once I figured out what happened to the freaking car, I called a taxi to take me to the impoundment lot (no cell phones back then – a pay phone) but 1) the taxi service didn’t answer the phone, and 2) when they did (tick tock later) they told me it would a “awhile” before they could dispatch a taxi. Okay. I wasn’t living in Richmond at that time, but had lived there before, and knew that they had a skeletal bus service, So I took my chances and took a bus to the closest stop to the Midlothian Bridge, across which, and a walk further, was my car. Yes, I did that, and finally got there, not wearing hiking shoes, just so you know. I finally retrieved my car, paid the freaking fine, and got to my other meeting. Not quite on time.
     Just don’t give me lectures on my consumer choices. Thanks. You know what would have happened now? I would have gotten an Uber.

233. Just take the review course, since the exam is about what is actually necessary to do the job, right?
     Not really. Law school is a good idea, although it could be improved with a mandatory “apprentice year”. Or maybe just apprenticeships. But the law is a specialized area. It’s probably good to read a lot of cases, which happens in law school.
     Also, I could just get out my scissors and do some surgery. I’ve done it on myself before, with splinters!

234. Just take the review course, since the exam is about what is actually necessary to do the job, right?
     Not really. Law school is a good idea, although it could be improved with a mandatory “apprentice year”. Or maybe just apprenticeships. But the law is a specialized area. It’s probably good to read a lot of cases, which happens in law school.
     Also, I could just get out my scissors and do some surgery. I’ve done it on myself before, with splinters!

235. If the dreaded automation dystopia arrives, and everybody has lots of leisure time (since we won’t have to be breaking our backs “making stuff”), then there may well be some folks who just like to drive around picking up passengers and helping them out. Can’t say how many. You never know.
     But … won’t the cars be automated, too? I think we’ll all have to put on plays for each other or start lots of rockabilly bands.

236. If the dreaded automation dystopia arrives, and everybody has lots of leisure time (since we won’t have to be breaking our backs “making stuff”), then there may well be some folks who just like to drive around picking up passengers and helping them out. Can’t say how many. You never know.
     But … won’t the cars be automated, too? I think we’ll all have to put on plays for each other or start lots of rockabilly bands.

237. Thus, in theory, there should be nobody getting obscenely rich owning a taxi company.
     (I’m not posting multiple comments to pick on bobbyp. I just forgot about the quirk of my iPad that doesn’t allow me to copy once I’m in the text field to write a comment.)
     I theory, no one shoud get obscenely rich doing almost anything if markets worked the way they were supposed to, because profit margins would be squeezed to zero by competition. (Somehow, I don’t think this is what free-market fetishists have in mind, though.)

238. Thus, in theory, there should be nobody getting obscenely rich owning a taxi company.
     (I’m not posting multiple comments to pick on bobbyp. I just forgot about the quirk of my iPad that doesn’t allow me to copy once I’m in the text field to write a comment.)
     I theory, no one shoud get obscenely rich doing almost anything if markets worked the way they were supposed to, because profit margins would be squeezed to zero by competition. (Somehow, I don’t think this is what free-market fetishists have in mind, though.)

239. Let me tell you a story about Uber, Sunday morning I needed to get to the airport so I requested an Uber, no cabs exist in my town, so they picked my driver, showed he would be there in 14 minutes, started counting down. At 9 minutes I noticed the GPS map didn’t look like he was vetting closer, at 5 he still looked like same place, but the clock kept counting down, finally it announced he was here, by switching to the airport route.
     Except he wasn’t there. I looked around the corner, looked at the phone, stood stupidly in the dark and cold staring down the road until suddenly the phone clicked over to a different map showing the driver 24 minutes away, the other direction and announcing my new arrival time at the airport 10 minutes before my flight.
     I got in the car and drove to the airport. Wishing there was a cab company to complain to, but what I got was a note saying that Uber might charge me anyway since I didn’t cancel my ride in time.

240. Let me tell you a story about Uber, Sunday morning I needed to get to the airport so I requested an Uber, no cabs exist in my town, so they picked my driver, showed he would be there in 14 minutes, started counting down. At 9 minutes I noticed the GPS map didn’t look like he was vetting closer, at 5 he still looked like same place, but the clock kept counting down, finally it announced he was here, by switching to the airport route.
     Except he wasn’t there. I looked around the corner, looked at the phone, stood stupidly in the dark and cold staring down the road until suddenly the phone clicked over to a different map showing the driver 24 minutes away, the other direction and announcing my new arrival time at the airport 10 minutes before my flight.
     I got in the car and drove to the airport. Wishing there was a cab company to complain to, but what I got was a note saying that Uber might charge me anyway since I didn’t cancel my ride in time.

241. Wishing there was a cab company to complain to
     but there wasn’t. And had you complained, what would they have said? the cab company I described, the one in Richmond, would have said, ummm … but ….
     Some towns don’t have good services. What are you gonna do?

242. Wishing there was a cab company to complain to
     but there wasn’t. And had you complained, what would they have said? the cab company I described, the one in Richmond, would have said, ummm … but ….
     Some towns don’t have good services. What are you gonna do?

243. Oh, and Marty, why are you using Uber, supporting the gig economy? Vote with your feet, man!

244. Oh, and Marty, why are you using Uber, supporting the gig economy? Vote with your feet, man!

245. In the further imaginary adventures of russell’s perfect world, I always thought it would be great if Walmart, with their presence and traditional role in underserved rural communities, would set up factories in those communities to make the stuff they sell.
     They’d have a vertical monopoly on consumer goods in a very large swath of the US. Which is, probably, not a particularly good thing from a macro point of view. But I find it hard to believe it would hurt their bottom line very much if at all. Wouldn’t they still lend up making truly ungodly piles of good old lovely green money?
     They’d be helping to invigorate the manufacturing base and creating higher-skilled jobs. In all of the places that people say those jobs no longer exist. Instead of teaching their employees how to apply for food stamps, they’d be teaching them how to make stuff.
     Socks, TV’s, ammo, chaise lounges, lawn ornaments. What have you. If anybody on earth has the capital to tool up, it’s the Waltons. Pay people $25 or $30 or even $50 an hour to make all that stuff, then sell it back to them.
     Worked for Henry Ford. Plus, it’s nice to look at stuff and say “I made that”.
     It seems like a lost opportunity, to me.

246. In the further imaginary adventures of russell’s perfect world, I always thought it would be great if Walmart, with their presence and traditional role in underserved rural communities, would set up factories in those communities to make the stuff they sell.
     They’d have a vertical monopoly on consumer goods in a very large swath of the US. Which is, probably, not a particularly good thing from a macro point of view. But I find it hard to believe it would hurt their bottom line very much if at all. Wouldn’t they still lend up making truly ungodly piles of good old lovely green money?
     They’d be helping to invigorate the manufacturing base and creating higher-skilled jobs. In all of the places that people say those jobs no longer exist. Instead of teaching their employees how to apply for food stamps, they’d be teaching them how to make stuff.
     Socks, TV’s, ammo, chaise lounges, lawn ornaments. What have you. If anybody on earth has the capital to tool up, it’s the Waltons. Pay people $25 or $30 or even $50 an hour to make all that stuff, then sell it back to them.
     Worked for Henry Ford. Plus, it’s nice to look at stuff and say “I made that”.
     It seems like a lost opportunity, to me.

247. My main objection to Uber is the “ride sharing service” label. I don’t know or care enough about Uber to be sure they have applied that label to themselves, or whether it’s a typical meathead-media creation.
     What I do know is that I would applaud any sort of app that enables actual sharing of rides, or power tools, or even bandwidth — let alone “jobs” or “money” — because I’m a borderline communist.
     I would expect opposition to “sharing” from the usual suspects: owners of taxi medallions, makers of lawnmowers and snowblowers, bankers and telecom monopolists, and so on — because I wasn’t born yesterday.
     But opposition is what us commies thrive on, so what the hell.
     –TP

248. My main objection to Uber is the “ride sharing service” label. I don’t know or care enough about Uber to be sure they have applied that label to themselves, or whether it’s a typical meathead-media creation.
     What I do know is that I would applaud any sort of app that enables actual sharing of rides, or power tools, or even bandwidth — let alone “jobs” or “money” — because I’m a borderline communist.
     I would expect opposition to “sharing” from the usual suspects: owners of taxi medallions, makers of lawnmowers and snowblowers, bankers and telecom monopolists, and so on — because I wasn’t born yesterday.
     But opposition is what us commies thrive on, so what the hell.
     –TP

249. “Oh, and Marty, why are you using Uber, supporting the gig economy? Vote with your feet, man!”
     Heck, my buddy and I started a company with a tag line that we were the Uber of our specialty. I also cut my hair in 1974. I am a serial sellout.

250. “Oh, and Marty, why are you using Uber, supporting the gig economy? Vote with your feet, man!”
     Heck, my buddy and I started a company with a tag line that we were the Uber of our specialty. I also cut my hair in 1974. I am a serial sellout.

251. Tony,
     I worked with an MIT kid last year who was working on a tools sharing service. Good concept, very localized by neighborhood. I counseled him to start small and make sure there were enough people who would share their leaf blower. And enough guys who don’t want there own.

252. Tony,
     I worked with an MIT kid last year who was working on a tools sharing service. Good concept, very localized by neighborhood. I counseled him to start small and make sure there were enough people who would share their leaf blower. And enough guys who don’t want there own.

253. I am a serial sellout.
     Well, join the club. But let’s not get that confused with what we’ll do to get a ride.

254. I am a serial sellout.
     Well, join the club. But let’s not get that confused with what we’ll do to get a ride.

255. wj, the Dems I know regard Sen. Feinstein as being a right-centrist who occasionally makes extremely well publicicized and mostly symbolic gestures toward liberalism. Her record in the Senate Intelligence committee is absolutely “serious”, by which everyone means hawkish and militaristic. Her seniority and mastery of the intricacies of the Senate allow her to quietly stifle many left-liberal initiatives in the cradle, while leaving no public tracks. She’s wealthy even by Senate standards, and her husband’s fortune comes from supplying the military with arms.

256. wj, the Dems I know regard Sen. Feinstein as being a right-centrist who occasionally makes extremely well publicicized and mostly symbolic gestures toward liberalism. Her record in the Senate Intelligence committee is absolutely “serious”, by which everyone means hawkish and militaristic. Her seniority and mastery of the intricacies of the Senate allow her to quietly stifle many left-liberal initiatives in the cradle, while leaving no public tracks. She’s wealthy even by Senate standards, and her husband’s fortune comes from supplying the military with arms.

257. russell, thanks for that. I am getting better at only jumping in when I am in the mood to try to be productive, mostly. Sometimes I feel like mixing it up if I think I have something to add. Mostly just pass if tempers are showing. Makes me enjoy it more.

258. russell, thanks for that. I am getting better at only jumping in when I am in the mood to try to be productive, mostly. Sometimes I feel like mixing it up if I think I have something to add. Mostly just pass if tempers are showing. Makes me enjoy it more.

259. Clearly you don’t know many attorneys.
     Three of my cousins are attorneys. One made a small fortune as a class action litigation attorney; one is doing very very very well working with L&I injured worker appeals…they other? Well, let’s just say personal problems.
     The median attorney income is $115,000/yr. I have no doubt many of them work very hard, and many of them for good causes. So do janitors.
     Just don’t give me lectures on my consumer choices.
     No lecture here. Just trying to convey my POV. Lest I get all mcmanus on this, it is all of a piece. We adopted public policies that encouraged suburbanization. This led to low density spread out metro areas. These areas are ill served by services that require much greater density (cf cabs).
     And now folks, locked into this way of life demand better services at lower costs. Do they blame the public policy? No, they do not.
     So we get Uber.
     I do not see this as progress.

260. Clearly you don’t know many attorneys.
     Three of my cousins are attorneys. One made a small fortune as a class action litigation attorney; one is doing very very very well working with L&I injured worker appeals…they other? Well, let’s just say personal problems.
     The median attorney income is $115,000/yr. I have no doubt many of them work very hard, and many of them for good causes. So do janitors.
     Just don’t give me lectures on my consumer choices.
     No lecture here. Just trying to convey my POV. Lest I get all mcmanus on this, it is all of a piece. We adopted public policies that encouraged suburbanization. This led to low density spread out metro areas. These areas are ill served by services that require much greater density (cf cabs).
     And now folks, locked into this way of life demand better services at lower costs. Do they blame the public policy? No, they do not.
     So we get Uber.
     I do not see this as progress.

261. But … won’t the cars be automated, too?
     Well, if Duncan Black is correct, no, they will not.
     because profit margins would be squeezed to zero by competition.
     Like all else, that depends.
     🙂

262. But … won’t the cars be automated, too?
     Well, if Duncan Black is correct, no, they will not.
     because profit margins would be squeezed to zero by competition.
     Like all else, that depends.
     🙂

263. But opposition is what us commies thrive on, so what the hell.
     This. To the barricades!

264. But opposition is what us commies thrive on, so what the hell.
     This. To the barricades!

265. This led to low density spread out metro areas.
     Richmond, Va, is a city, the capital of Virginia (also the capital of the Confederacy, sad to say). It’s also progressive. It’s also not rich. Half of the population is African-American.
     There are all kinds of reasons why Richmond doesn’t have optimal transportation services. But people need to go places. Uber is new. Presumably Uber drivers will demand more, or people will demand more. I’m not opposed to that, but I am opposed to pretending that we don’t need services like Uber, or that people don’t need flexible work possibilities, like Uber offers. Does Uber represent an ideal system? Absolutely not! But it represents a system that we need to fix so people can get transportation, and so people who need flexible employment opportunities can have them.
     Many men think “flexible” is “lovely”. Some women depend on it.

266. This led to low density spread out metro areas.
     Richmond, Va, is a city, the capital of Virginia (also the capital of the Confederacy, sad to say). It’s also progressive. It’s also not rich. Half of the population is African-American.
     There are all kinds of reasons why Richmond doesn’t have optimal transportation services. But people need to go places. Uber is new. Presumably Uber drivers will demand more, or people will demand more. I’m not opposed to that, but I am opposed to pretending that we don’t need services like Uber, or that people don’t need flexible work possibilities, like Uber offers. Does Uber represent an ideal system? Absolutely not! But it represents a system that we need to fix so people can get transportation, and so people who need flexible employment opportunities can have them.
     Many men think “flexible” is “lovely”. Some women depend on it.

267. Joel, Feinstein is definitely relatively conservative . . . for a Democrat. And she has gotten more conservative over the decades. But right of center overall? Not sure I can see that.

268. Joel, Feinstein is definitely relatively conservative . . . for a Democrat. And she has gotten more conservative over the decades. But right of center overall? Not sure I can see that.

269. Well, if Duncan Black is correct, no, they will not.
     Argh. I used to like him, way back when, before he turned into a cynical, mean spirited sod.

270. Well, if Duncan Black is correct, no, they will not.
     Argh. I used to like him, way back when, before he turned into a cynical, mean spirited sod.

271. Joel @ 9:59 abv. wj was referring to Senator Barbara Boxer, not that other one.
     Best regards.

272. Joel @ 9:59 abv. wj was referring to Senator Barbara Boxer, not that other one.
     Best regards.

273. And we’re all on the same page that Boxer was significantly more liberal than Feinstein. 😉

274. And we’re all on the same page that Boxer was significantly more liberal than Feinstein. 😉

275. But people need to go places.
     Undoubtedly. But singing the praises of a corporation that exploits its “contractors” is not the answer.

276. But people need to go places.
     Undoubtedly. But singing the praises of a corporation that exploits its “contractors” is not the answer.

277. bobbyp :
     This is what motivated my remark :

     Senator Feinstein or Governor Brown. Both of whom are regarded as distinctly left of center
     Posted by: wj | April 24, 2017 at 01:22 PM

278. bobbyp :
     This is what motivated my remark :

     Senator Feinstein or Governor Brown. Both of whom are regarded as distinctly left of center
     Posted by: wj | April 24, 2017 at 01:22 PM

279. But singing the praises of a corporation that exploits its “contractors” is not the answer.
     I did not “sing the praises of the corporation”. I sang the praises of the service. The service is the answer. I’m happy to regulate the corporation so that its workers are paid fairly, and so that it pays appropriate taxes and fees to government.
     Don’t pretend that we don’t need the service, or that people don’t need flexible employment. That’s a loser.

280. But singing the praises of a corporation that exploits its “contractors” is not the answer.
     I did not “sing the praises of the corporation”. I sang the praises of the service. The service is the answer. I’m happy to regulate the corporation so that its workers are paid fairly, and so that it pays appropriate taxes and fees to government.
     Don’t pretend that we don’t need the service, or that people don’t need flexible employment. That’s a loser.

281. wj skrev :
     But right of center overall? Not sure I can see that.
     and that’s just the way she wants it, because California Democrats are considerably to the left of her actual positions. As I said, she is brilliant at appearing to be more liberal than she is. Largely-symbolic liberal gestures in public; conservative in action in the Senate.
     You know the Bug alien in Men In Black, the one that wears the skin of the farmer to look human ?

282. wj skrev :
     But right of center overall? Not sure I can see that.
     and that’s just the way she wants it, because California Democrats are considerably to the left of her actual positions. As I said, she is brilliant at appearing to be more liberal than she is. Largely-symbolic liberal gestures in public; conservative in action in the Senate.
     You know the Bug alien in Men In Black, the one that wears the skin of the farmer to look human ?

283. Well happily for Feinstein, the Republicans have consistently run opponents for her who were well to her right.
     (More impressive was the ability of the Republicans to find opponents for Boxer who were further right of center than she was left. Or massively incompetent. I long thought her the luckiest politician in the state.)

284. Well happily for Feinstein, the Republicans have consistently run opponents for her who were well to her right.
     (More impressive was the ability of the Republicans to find opponents for Boxer who were further right of center than she was left. Or massively incompetent. I long thought her the luckiest politician in the state.)

285. At this point, it kinda doesn’t matter whom the Rs nominate in much of California. They screwed the pooch with Prop 187, and then made the state impossible to govern for much of a decade while they were in the minority but still had over 1/3 of the Assembly, and Californians noticed.
     Brown makes me smile. He’s actually governing quite conservatively, in the old-fashioned meaning of the word conservative : he’s told the Dems they can’t go wild on taxes or spending and must act moderately, and is limiting the state government to minimalist solutions to the state’s problems, while trying to steer a steady course.

286. At this point, it kinda doesn’t matter whom the Rs nominate in much of California. They screwed the pooch with Prop 187, and then made the state impossible to govern for much of a decade while they were in the minority but still had over 1/3 of the Assembly, and Californians noticed.
     Brown makes me smile. He’s actually governing quite conservatively, in the old-fashioned meaning of the word conservative : he’s told the Dems they can’t go wild on taxes or spending and must act moderately, and is limiting the state government to minimalist solutions to the state’s problems, while trying to steer a steady course.

287. “More impressive was the ability of the Republicans to find opponents for Boxer who were further right of center than she was left.”
     The modifier “way” is missing.

288. “More impressive was the ability of the Republicans to find opponents for Boxer who were further right of center than she was left.”
     The modifier “way” is missing.

289. That’s the great amusement for me here. With the Republican Party imploding, the Democrats could easily have moved way left, and attempted to create a liberal utopia. Instead, they have broadened their base, all the way out thru center-right to quite conservative. It’s why I think one possible future has the California Republican Party disappearing (not totally, but down with the libertarians and the greens), and the Democrats fissioning to a liberal party and a center-right party.
     I gather things are enough different in the rest of the country that it’s not a plausible scenario there. Then again, we went down the far right rat hole years before the rest of you, so perhaps we are just ahead still.

290. That’s the great amusement for me here. With the Republican Party imploding, the Democrats could easily have moved way left, and attempted to create a liberal utopia. Instead, they have broadened their base, all the way out thru center-right to quite conservative. It’s why I think one possible future has the California Republican Party disappearing (not totally, but down with the libertarians and the greens), and the Democrats fissioning to a liberal party and a center-right party.
     I gather things are enough different in the rest of the country that it’s not a plausible scenario there. Then again, we went down the far right rat hole years before the rest of you, so perhaps we are just ahead still.

291. “I gather things are enough different in the rest of the country that it’s not a plausible scenario there.”
     You might want to check out places where Dems are the overwhelming majority…like Rhode Island, maybe Connecticut? You will observe more or less what you predict as Reps. disappear.

292. “I gather things are enough different in the rest of the country that it’s not a plausible scenario there.”
     You might want to check out places where Dems are the overwhelming majority…like Rhode Island, maybe Connecticut? You will observe more or less what you predict as Reps. disappear.

293. Automated cars are *completely* within the capabilities of current technology.
     You just have to clear their paths of unexpected (unprogrammed) obstacles and hazards, which generally means making available paths that they travel rather restricted.
     We call them “trains”.
     The Paris Metro #13 line is completely automated, and rather nice also, too.

294. Automated cars are *completely* within the capabilities of current technology.
     You just have to clear their paths of unexpected (unprogrammed) obstacles and hazards, which generally means making available paths that they travel rather restricted.
     We call them “trains”.
     The Paris Metro #13 line is completely automated, and rather nice also, too.

295. You know the Bug alien in Men In Black, the one that wears the skin of the farmer to look human ?
     He was an exterminator. Please don’t ruin gags like that.

296. You know the Bug alien in Men In Black, the one that wears the skin of the farmer to look human ?
     He was an exterminator. Please don’t ruin gags like that.

297. the further imaginary adventures of russell’s perfect world
     The book was better. 🙂

298. the further imaginary adventures of russell’s perfect world
     The book was better. 🙂

299. Now that we “got here”, this kind of sh1t happens:
     During the 2016 presidential campaign, both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton pledged their support for more paid family leave. Now big business is countering the calls with a proposal of its own: Congress should establish a certain optional amount of paid leave and, if companies meet that threshold, they should be protected from state or local laws that might require more.
     …
     In response to the spread of local regulations, conservatives and business groups have pushed state lawmakers to strip cities and towns of the authority to pass such measures.
     …
     The HR Policy Association says companies don’t need government regulation to be generous with their workers. “While many existing government policies assume employers will only treat their employees fairly if they are required by law to do so, the war for talent negates that assumption,” Merck & Co. executive vice president Mirian Graddick-Weir, who chairs the association, said in an email.
     Current laws on the books still assume “that employers were likely to take advantage of employees, so we just need to put lots of protections in place,” said CIT Group chief human resources officer Jim Duffy. “Now really the shoe is clearly on the other foot — the workers really have the leverage.”
     Yes, the workers have the leverage in the United States while big business goes to Congress to fix prices. Right. Later in a business person says a federally mandated amount of paid leave would be “too instrusive.” Feh.

300. Now that we “got here”, this kind of sh1t happens:
     During the 2016 presidential campaign, both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton pledged their support for more paid family leave. Now big business is countering the calls with a proposal of its own: Congress should establish a certain optional amount of paid leave and, if companies meet that threshold, they should be protected from state or local laws that might require more.
     …
     In response to the spread of local regulations, conservatives and business groups have pushed state lawmakers to strip cities and towns of the authority to pass such measures.
     …
     The HR Policy Association says companies don’t need government regulation to be generous with their workers. “While many existing government policies assume employers will only treat their employees fairly if they are required by law to do so, the war for talent negates that assumption,” Merck & Co. executive vice president Mirian Graddick-Weir, who chairs the association, said in an email.
     Current laws on the books still assume “that employers were likely to take advantage of employees, so we just need to put lots of protections in place,” said CIT Group chief human resources officer Jim Duffy. “Now really the shoe is clearly on the other foot — the workers really have the leverage.”
     Yes, the workers have the leverage in the United States while big business goes to Congress to fix prices. Right. Later in a business person says a federally mandated amount of paid leave would be “too instrusive.” Feh.

301. But Ugh, couldn’t Congress just mandate family leave at the highest level of those currently specified by the various states and cities? Surely the current Congress could do that, to make it easier for companies, because they wouldn’t have to deal with multiple standards. Just look at how much they are succeeding in accomplishing already. (Hey, Trump says lots is getting done. And he should know.)
     We now return you to your personal fantasy world….

302. But Ugh, couldn’t Congress just mandate family leave at the highest level of those currently specified by the various states and cities? Surely the current Congress could do that, to make it easier for companies, because they wouldn’t have to deal with multiple standards. Just look at how much they are succeeding in accomplishing already. (Hey, Trump says lots is getting done. And he should know.)
     We now return you to your personal fantasy world….

303. There needs to be a US-wide educational campaign spelling out what kind of family and vacation leave people who work in Europe receive.
     For example:
     Out of 193 countries in the United Nations, only a small handful do not have a national paid parental leave law: New Guinea, Suriname, a few South Pacific island nations and the United States.
     But look, communism!
     they spread the responsibility evenly
     And an interesting note in there on why it’s important to provide paternity leave: it helps alleviate the bias against hiring/promoting women of childbearing age.

304. There needs to be a US-wide educational campaign spelling out what kind of family and vacation leave people who work in Europe receive.
     For example:
     Out of 193 countries in the United Nations, only a small handful do not have a national paid parental leave law: New Guinea, Suriname, a few South Pacific island nations and the United States.
     But look, communism!
     they spread the responsibility evenly
     And an interesting note in there on why it’s important to provide paternity leave: it helps alleviate the bias against hiring/promoting women of childbearing age.

305. My main objection to Uber is the “ride sharing service” label.
     this.
     it’s obviously not a “sharing” app. it’s a car service hiding behind a misleading mission statement in order to avoid having to comply with the laws and regulations the people decided they wanted taxis to follow.
     i get that it’s a useful service (though there are no Uber drivers in my town for some reason). but it’s not what it pretends to be, when it comes to the law.

306. My main objection to Uber is the “ride sharing service” label.
     this.
     it’s obviously not a “sharing” app. it’s a car service hiding behind a misleading mission statement in order to avoid having to comply with the laws and regulations the people decided they wanted taxis to follow.
     i get that it’s a useful service (though there are no Uber drivers in my town for some reason). but it’s not what it pretends to be, when it comes to the law.

307. How did we get here? Not by taking Uber!

308. How did we get here? Not by taking Uber!

309. Hello all. After a number of years, I am moved to jump in the fray again, as wj’s fundamental question has moved me enough to chip in here, as it is also the question that is on my mind most these days.
     I posted often a number of years ago but took myself out of the fray as I didn’t see that I could contribute anything meaningfully on a regular basis. Then I tried again, but found the same thing – it was no-one here pushing me out. If anything, I took myself out.
     So I hope this is not trolling. I know lj personally and through the years have still continued to follow ObWi and the fruitful, sometimes funny, sometimes infuriating, but never boring commentary here. I can’t say if I can regularly contribute – but at that risk, I’m doing so here. I realize the discussion has branched off away from wj’s original question, though it has roots in it, but I’d like to return to the roots, so to speak.
     My question is how culture trumps economics in the minds of those who are the most economically threatened. As has been said upthread, it’s clear that at least some R-voters are not voting out of their economic interest, even if they reside in areas that have seen the worst of Republican economic policies. The Lucy Van Pelt scenario, where she urges Charlie Brown to take a kick at the football only for her to yank it away every time out, doesn’t explain how people fall in when the call to man the culture war barricades is sent out. What connection – however bizarre it seems to call it as such – is happening to compel people to vote in patterns that make them worse off? So take the following with as many grains of salt as anyone here likes.
     Perhaps there’s a lot of people out there who unconsciously think that economic mechanisms inculcate all the equality we need, and that a call for equality that isn’t tied into these mechanisms – say, gay marriage – is unfairly asking for something that is outside those mechanisms to make it happen. I’m wondering if so many accept the market as a given, as if it were a natural entity, and that what equality we have emerges from it. That some have more than others, and some of them a lot more, somehow doesn’t disturb the equation enough for some folks.
     If this is right in any way – and I’m all open to the possibility that I’m blowing air out my hole – then there needs to be a recognition that market economics isn’t a true seat of rights, and that a connection needs to be made between economic rights and a larger spectrum of civil rights.
     I’m familiar with the commentary on the ACA, and I’m not trying to mix apples with oranges on this thread about it. But I mention this because as per Russell, there was a time when this wasn’t an issue for lots of folks. But it is now, and there is no reason why, say, Marty has to be put through the question of access to affordable health care. How this isn’t seen as an economic equal right baffles me, especially when the enemies of the ACA insist that health care must be anchored in the market.
     So – is it possible that we thought that the relative equality white people had in that now seemingly-halcyon post-WWII-to-circa 1980 period was because they thought the market made it happen?

310. Hello all. After a number of years, I am moved to jump in the fray again, as wj’s fundamental question has moved me enough to chip in here, as it is also the question that is on my mind most these days.
     I posted often a number of years ago but took myself out of the fray as I didn’t see that I could contribute anything meaningfully on a regular basis. Then I tried again, but found the same thing – it was no-one here pushing me out. If anything, I took myself out.
     So I hope this is not trolling. I know lj personally and through the years have still continued to follow ObWi and the fruitful, sometimes funny, sometimes infuriating, but never boring commentary here. I can’t say if I can regularly contribute – but at that risk, I’m doing so here. I realize the discussion has branched off away from wj’s original question, though it has roots in it, but I’d like to return to the roots, so to speak.
     My question is how culture trumps economics in the minds of those who are the most economically threatened. As has been said upthread, it’s clear that at least some R-voters are not voting out of their economic interest, even if they reside in areas that have seen the worst of Republican economic policies. The Lucy Van Pelt scenario, where she urges Charlie Brown to take a kick at the football only for her to yank it away every time out, doesn’t explain how people fall in when the call to man the culture war barricades is sent out. What connection – however bizarre it seems to call it as such – is happening to compel people to vote in patterns that make them worse off? So take the following with as many grains of salt as anyone here likes.
     Perhaps there’s a lot of people out there who unconsciously think that economic mechanisms inculcate all the equality we need, and that a call for equality that isn’t tied into these mechanisms – say, gay marriage – is unfairly asking for something that is outside those mechanisms to make it happen. I’m wondering if so many accept the market as a given, as if it were a natural entity, and that what equality we have emerges from it. That some have more than others, and some of them a lot more, somehow doesn’t disturb the equation enough for some folks.
     If this is right in any way – and I’m all open to the possibility that I’m blowing air out my hole – then there needs to be a recognition that market economics isn’t a true seat of rights, and that a connection needs to be made between economic rights and a larger spectrum of civil rights.
     I’m familiar with the commentary on the ACA, and I’m not trying to mix apples with oranges on this thread about it. But I mention this because as per Russell, there was a time when this wasn’t an issue for lots of folks. But it is now, and there is no reason why, say, Marty has to be put through the question of access to affordable health care. How this isn’t seen as an economic equal right baffles me, especially when the enemies of the ACA insist that health care must be anchored in the market.
     So – is it possible that we thought that the relative equality white people had in that now seemingly-halcyon post-WWII-to-circa 1980 period was because they thought the market made it happen?

311. So – is it possible that we thought that the relative equality white people had in that now seemingly-halcyon post-WWII-to-circa 1980 period was because they thought the market made it happen?
     No.
     FHA. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Social Security. Tennessee Valley Authority. GI Bill. Interstate Highway. Defense spending at 10% of GDP. Draft. Electricity as a municipal public utility. Unions.
     In the 50s and 60s, Gov’t was a much larger part of people’s lives and economies than it is now, and was viewed much more favorably. We even had hard core Keynesians like Galbraith and Tobin on the talk shows and Newsweek columns, not the “bastard Keynesians” like Krugman and DeLong.
     And we had Commies and socialists shouting around the edges, and being heard.
     It all went bad in the 70s.

312. So – is it possible that we thought that the relative equality white people had in that now seemingly-halcyon post-WWII-to-circa 1980 period was because they thought the market made it happen?
     No.
     FHA. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Social Security. Tennessee Valley Authority. GI Bill. Interstate Highway. Defense spending at 10% of GDP. Draft. Electricity as a municipal public utility. Unions.
     In the 50s and 60s, Gov’t was a much larger part of people’s lives and economies than it is now, and was viewed much more favorably. We even had hard core Keynesians like Galbraith and Tobin on the talk shows and Newsweek columns, not the “bastard Keynesians” like Krugman and DeLong.
     And we had Commies and socialists shouting around the edges, and being heard.
     It all went bad in the 70s.

313. Are you asking us to think about economic equality as a right, as opposed to basic comfort, which is based on having some right to “a piece of the pie”, but not necessarily an equal piece? If so, I feel that “from each according to his ability; to each according to his need” is a good framework to talk about this. I think that slogan demands more of people than is promised in return.
     I’m of the view that in a society where there is enough wealth to provide everyone with food, shelter, basic education and healthcare, as well as collective benefits, such as good infrastructure (including efficient transportation) that we should do that. Beyond that, I don’t think society needs to assure economic equality. I do think that society should facilitate economic mobility.
     My parents understood that government had a large role in providing for their success, but they also felt that the people and the government were not separate entities in the way that people describe government now.

314. Are you asking us to think about economic equality as a right, as opposed to basic comfort, which is based on having some right to “a piece of the pie”, but not necessarily an equal piece? If so, I feel that “from each according to his ability; to each according to his need” is a good framework to talk about this. I think that slogan demands more of people than is promised in return.
     I’m of the view that in a society where there is enough wealth to provide everyone with food, shelter, basic education and healthcare, as well as collective benefits, such as good infrastructure (including efficient transportation) that we should do that. Beyond that, I don’t think society needs to assure economic equality. I do think that society should facilitate economic mobility.
     My parents understood that government had a large role in providing for their success, but they also felt that the people and the government were not separate entities in the way that people describe government now.

315. Maybe it’s that many (or, at least, enough) people today think that the market made the Good Ol’ Days happen, even if some of them were around for the Good Ol’ Days and didn’t believe it was free-market magic at the time.

316. Maybe it’s that many (or, at least, enough) people today think that the market made the Good Ol’ Days happen, even if some of them were around for the Good Ol’ Days and didn’t believe it was free-market magic at the time.

317. Great Society
     Read it twice, then read it again.
     …almost all in 1965-66, but quite a bit under Nixon.
     Yes, it was a very activist persuasive President, with a dominating advantage in Congress (and most credit goes to Congress.) But they were also the kind of Democrats (and many Republicans!) who had wanted these programs for decades, who were close enough to socialists as to make little difference. Not millionaires like Pelosi and Feinstein.
     “The percentage of African Americans below the poverty line dropped from 55 percent in 1960 to 27 percent in 1968.[41] From 1964 to 1967, federal expenditures on education rose from $4 billion to $12 billion, while spending on health rose from $5 billion to $16 billion. By that time, the federal government was spending $4,000 per annum on each poor family of four, four times as much as in 1961.[42]”
     Umm, Great Society was voted into law by almost 100% white men.
     No, the Post-WWII generation weren’t market freaks.

318. Great Society
     Read it twice, then read it again.
     …almost all in 1965-66, but quite a bit under Nixon.
     Yes, it was a very activist persuasive President, with a dominating advantage in Congress (and most credit goes to Congress.) But they were also the kind of Democrats (and many Republicans!) who had wanted these programs for decades, who were close enough to socialists as to make little difference. Not millionaires like Pelosi and Feinstein.
     “The percentage of African Americans below the poverty line dropped from 55 percent in 1960 to 27 percent in 1968.[41] From 1964 to 1967, federal expenditures on education rose from $4 billion to $12 billion, while spending on health rose from $5 billion to $16 billion. By that time, the federal government was spending $4,000 per annum on each poor family of four, four times as much as in 1961.[42]”
     Umm, Great Society was voted into law by almost 100% white men.
     No, the Post-WWII generation weren’t market freaks.

319. Meanwhile, Obama has hit the speech circuit, at $400 k per gig. Every other week gives him $10 million a year, but I bet he does 2-3 times that.
     Taking bets on when we get our first ex-President to use the job to make a billion dollars. I’m taking the under at 5 years. He will be very very lucky in investments.

320. Meanwhile, Obama has hit the speech circuit, at $400 k per gig. Every other week gives him $10 million a year, but I bet he does 2-3 times that.
     Taking bets on when we get our first ex-President to use the job to make a billion dollars. I’m taking the under at 5 years. He will be very very lucky in investments.

321. No, the Post-WWII generation weren’t market freaks.
     Sure. But why am I taking all these vaccines? I’m not even sick!

322. No, the Post-WWII generation weren’t market freaks.
     Sure. But why am I taking all these vaccines? I’m not even sick!

323. wear your own hairshirt, bob. don’t demand that everyone else do so, too.

324. wear your own hairshirt, bob. don’t demand that everyone else do so, too.

325. wear your own hairshirt, bob. don’t demand that everyone else do so, too.
     Well, could remind of the vast excluded middle between “hairshit” and “rapacious conman sprinting toward a billion” but I will simply remind you that I am a Communist, dammit, and demanding that everybody be at some slim range equal short of Harrison Bergeronism is the point.

326. wear your own hairshirt, bob. don’t demand that everyone else do so, too.
     Well, could remind of the vast excluded middle between “hairshit” and “rapacious conman sprinting toward a billion” but I will simply remind you that I am a Communist, dammit, and demanding that everybody be at some slim range equal short of Harrison Bergeronism is the point.

327. Taking bets on when we get our first ex-President to use the job to make a billion dollars.
     I think they’ll be edged out by the first sitting POTUS to do the same.
     Another possible new national motto: “Take the money and run”.

328. Taking bets on when we get our first ex-President to use the job to make a billion dollars.
     I think they’ll be edged out by the first sitting POTUS to do the same.
     Another possible new national motto: “Take the money and run”.

329. I have a gub.

330. I have a gub.

331. Who needs the old white republican men to hate on when so many young white republican step forward to assume the position:
     http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/04/25/the-republican-lawmaker-who-secretly-created-reddit-s-women-hating-red-pill.html?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning

332. Who needs the old white republican men to hate on when so many young white republican step forward to assume the position:
     http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/04/25/the-republican-lawmaker-who-secretly-created-reddit-s-women-hating-red-pill.html?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning

333. Actually, russell, isn’t it more like “run, then take the money?”

334. Actually, russell, isn’t it more like “run, then take the money?”

335. I worked with an MIT kid last year who was working on a tools sharing service. Good concept, very localized by neighborhood.
     Anecdote, possibly relevant. I’m the unofficial armorer for the Colorado Division of USA Fencing (the sport fencing organization in the US). The division owns several pieces of relatively expensive electric scoring gear. We have the gear to support local fencing clubs, primarily to supplement their own gear for larger tournaments. Fixing the gear when it comes back busted is part of my job. Gear is much more likely to come back busted from one club in particular.
     How do you deal with the situation of “All the tools in the pool that got busted last year got busted when Bob was using them”?

336. I worked with an MIT kid last year who was working on a tools sharing service. Good concept, very localized by neighborhood.
     Anecdote, possibly relevant. I’m the unofficial armorer for the Colorado Division of USA Fencing (the sport fencing organization in the US). The division owns several pieces of relatively expensive electric scoring gear. We have the gear to support local fencing clubs, primarily to supplement their own gear for larger tournaments. Fixing the gear when it comes back busted is part of my job. Gear is much more likely to come back busted from one club in particular.
     How do you deal with the situation of “All the tools in the pool that got busted last year got busted when Bob was using them”?

337. It all went bad in the 70s
     Perhaps part of the reason that it all went bad was precisely because the 1950s and 1960s were so good economically. It allowed people space to get upset about the sexual revolution and the rest of the changing culture in the late 1960s, without feeling like it was going to hurt themselves economically to support politicians who were ranting against it.
     And then, when those politicians’ economic policies did hurt, they believed the spin that it was something else and not those policies which were doing it. The Arabs ramping up the oil prices, and causing big inflation as a result, may have helped keep things obscured.

338. It all went bad in the 70s
     Perhaps part of the reason that it all went bad was precisely because the 1950s and 1960s were so good economically. It allowed people space to get upset about the sexual revolution and the rest of the changing culture in the late 1960s, without feeling like it was going to hurt themselves economically to support politicians who were ranting against it.
     And then, when those politicians’ economic policies did hurt, they believed the spin that it was something else and not those policies which were doing it. The Arabs ramping up the oil prices, and causing big inflation as a result, may have helped keep things obscured.

339. The reason people think the government is run largely for the rich and not for them is because the government is largely run for the rich and not for them.
     http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

340. The reason people think the government is run largely for the rich and not for them is because the government is largely run for the rich and not for them.
     http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

341. Also, too, we’ve added about a hundred million people to the US population in the last 40 years or so. Lot’s of people have died since then. People have come to believe many things over the last 40 years, but they aren’t nearly all the same people.
     And, even then, some people believed some of those things more than 40 years ago. Just not quite as many.

342. Also, too, we’ve added about a hundred million people to the US population in the last 40 years or so. Lot’s of people have died since then. People have come to believe many things over the last 40 years, but they aren’t nearly all the same people.
     And, even then, some people believed some of those things more than 40 years ago. Just not quite as many.

343. For some reason, I’m picturing a guy in an iron lung ranting about vaccines causing autism.

344. For some reason, I’m picturing a guy in an iron lung ranting about vaccines causing autism.

345. “For some reason, I’m picturing a guy in an iron lung ranting about vaccines causing autism.”
     Get off my FB

346. “For some reason, I’m picturing a guy in an iron lung ranting about vaccines causing autism.”
     Get off my FB

347. Get off my FB
     Since FB didn’t exist in 1995, I’m guessing this isn’t a quote from Hackers.

348. Get off my FB
     Since FB didn’t exist in 1995, I’m guessing this isn’t a quote from Hackers.

349. The reason people think the government is run largely for the rich and not for them is because the government is largely run for the rich and not for them.
     Matt Yglesias on Obama Speaking Fees
     MY: “Did you really avoid breaking up the big banks because you thought it would undermine financial stability, or were you on the take? Did you really think a fracking ban would be bad for the environment, or were you on the take? One man’s sophisticated and pragmatic approach to public policy can be the other man’s grab bag of corrupt opportunism.”
     Matt, quit asking silly questions. Obama was on the take, probably since Harvard. Just smart and patient about it, I mean it isn’t as if the White House was a shack serving ramen. But Yglesias knows the score, he is just using Obama for some cheap virtue-signaling on his own behalf. Coulda made a difference in 2008-2009.
     What is more interesting is the people who love celebrity grift, and being conned, and still call themselves progressive.

350. The reason people think the government is run largely for the rich and not for them is because the government is largely run for the rich and not for them.
     Matt Yglesias on Obama Speaking Fees
     MY: “Did you really avoid breaking up the big banks because you thought it would undermine financial stability, or were you on the take? Did you really think a fracking ban would be bad for the environment, or were you on the take? One man’s sophisticated and pragmatic approach to public policy can be the other man’s grab bag of corrupt opportunism.”
     Matt, quit asking silly questions. Obama was on the take, probably since Harvard. Just smart and patient about it, I mean it isn’t as if the White House was a shack serving ramen. But Yglesias knows the score, he is just using Obama for some cheap virtue-signaling on his own behalf. Coulda made a difference in 2008-2009.
     What is more interesting is the people who love celebrity grift, and being conned, and still call themselves progressive.

351. Obama was on the take,
     there’s that academic precision we’ve come to know.

352. Obama was on the take,
     there’s that academic precision we’ve come to know.

353. What, I am refuted by a comma splice?
     I use them all the time, I want a pause for rhetorical effect that isn’t as long or as sharp as an ellipsis.
     I am a free man and refuse to submit to the tyranny of Merriam-Webster, Strunk and White, or Lynne Truss.

354. What, I am refuted by a comma splice?
     I use them all the time, I want a pause for rhetorical effect that isn’t as long or as sharp as an ellipsis.
     I am a free man and refuse to submit to the tyranny of Merriam-Webster, Strunk and White, or Lynne Truss.

355. good point, mcmanus at 10:29 above. All that “market” celebration stuff was a direct outcome of a huge expansion of federal programs.
     (I miss JK Gailbraith. His son, Jamie, does a pretty good job).
     Two other concurrent developments:
     1. Steadily lowering taxes on the rich. From capital gains moving on to the Kennedy and Reagan cuts….etc.
     2. Anti-labor legislation: Taft-Hartley, Landrum-Griffin, state “right-to-work” laws.
     These factors have contributed a great deal toward the creation of our new Gilted(sp) Age.

356. good point, mcmanus at 10:29 above. All that “market” celebration stuff was a direct outcome of a huge expansion of federal programs.
     (I miss JK Gailbraith. His son, Jamie, does a pretty good job).
     Two other concurrent developments:
     1. Steadily lowering taxes on the rich. From capital gains moving on to the Kennedy and Reagan cuts….etc.
     2. Anti-labor legislation: Taft-Hartley, Landrum-Griffin, state “right-to-work” laws.
     These factors have contributed a great deal toward the creation of our new Gilted(sp) Age.

357. Let’s not forget the role of rampant voter fraud.

     At last, we know how badly photo voter ID is needed in North Carolina.
     For years, Republicans in North Carolina have alleged that in-person fraudulent voting is widespread while Democrats have said it is non-existent. But no one knew for sure, leaving the two sides talking past each other on voter ID.
     On Friday, the State Board of Elections released the results of an extensive, objective audit of the 2016 election. It found that 4,769,640 votes were cast in November and that one (1) would probably have been avoided with a voter ID law. One out of nearly 4.8 million.

358. Let’s not forget the role of rampant voter fraud.

     At last, we know how badly photo voter ID is needed in North Carolina.
     For years, Republicans in North Carolina have alleged that in-person fraudulent voting is widespread while Democrats have said it is non-existent. But no one knew for sure, leaving the two sides talking past each other on voter ID.
     On Friday, the State Board of Elections released the results of an extensive, objective audit of the 2016 election. It found that 4,769,640 votes were cast in November and that one (1) would probably have been avoided with a voter ID law. One out of nearly 4.8 million.

359. NC GOP: the dumbest motherfnckers in the land.

360. NC GOP: the dumbest motherfnckers in the land.

361. wj,
     I’m sure you will enjoy this comment over at LGM:
     DamnYankees says:
     April 25, 2017 at 2:14 pm
     “While I want to take a victory lap as a guy who said that the GOP would never repeal Obamacare, I think the best way to understand what happened is not that the GOP base ever really hated Obamacare as a policy and then changed their minds. They just hated the Obama part of it.
     It’s been interesting to watch how little the GOP base cares about almost any of the economic issues that the GOP claims to be about, and yet watch as no one – including both Republicans and reporters – understand what’s going on. It’s not that the GOP base changed their mind – it’s that they simply never cared about this policy to begin with, and are more than happy to flip on substance when someone “like them” is in charge of it.
     I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but as well know the GOP is essentially structured as a thin layer of very rich people ruling over a giant mass of traditionalist (e.g. racial, religious, gender, etc.) resentment. They don’t share very much in common, culturally. The rich people think that the GOP is defined by its economic ideas, while the base think its defined by its cultural identity. It’s been working this way for years of course, but with Trump it’s getting more interesting because he *ran* more than anyone before as one of the members of the *base*, but now that he’s in office he’s essentially been captured by the donor class.
     I maintain that the simple best way to explain how the GOP works, and the explanation for what happened here, is that the vast majority of their base simply doesn’t care about the actual substance of almost any of the economic or foreign policy positions of the Republican Party. They don’t give a fuck. There was a recent poll out showing that the number of Americans who want the government to “do more” is at its highest ever, and lots of people were surprised by this and wondering what it meant. I can’t help but think that the answer is so obvious that I don’t get why people are surprised by it. The GOP base’s position on whether the government is good and should do more has nothing to with policy – they don’t think in terms of “this policy is good and we should do more of it”. Their position is entirely driven by “is someone like me in charge – if so, yay government, if not, boo government”. Their ideological believe in the power of government is paper thin. It’s entirely about whose in charge. This is the exact same phenomenon we saw with Syria. And with the GOP position on trade. And with the GOP view of economic confidence.
     Democrats are not like this. When they lose power, they don’t lose their believe in these principles.
     And so of course the GOP base hates the new health care plan, because it is awful, and they have no ideological commitment to the principles causing the awfulness. They don’t give a flying fuck about these ideas in the abstract. They are totally fine with health care so long as a Republican is giving it to them. The fact that any journalist or politician would be surprised by this should be evidence that they barely understand their chosen profession.”
     A very well put and interesting point! Thanks DamnYankees!

362. wj,
     I’m sure you will enjoy this comment over at LGM:
     DamnYankees says:
     April 25, 2017 at 2:14 pm
     “While I want to take a victory lap as a guy who said that the GOP would never repeal Obamacare, I think the best way to understand what happened is not that the GOP base ever really hated Obamacare as a policy and then changed their minds. They just hated the Obama part of it.
     It’s been interesting to watch how little the GOP base cares about almost any of the economic issues that the GOP claims to be about, and yet watch as no one – including both Republicans and reporters – understand what’s going on. It’s not that the GOP base changed their mind – it’s that they simply never cared about this policy to begin with, and are more than happy to flip on substance when someone “like them” is in charge of it.
     I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but as well know the GOP is essentially structured as a thin layer of very rich people ruling over a giant mass of traditionalist (e.g. racial, religious, gender, etc.) resentment. They don’t share very much in common, culturally. The rich people think that the GOP is defined by its economic ideas, while the base think its defined by its cultural identity. It’s been working this way for years of course, but with Trump it’s getting more interesting because he *ran* more than anyone before as one of the members of the *base*, but now that he’s in office he’s essentially been captured by the donor class.
     I maintain that the simple best way to explain how the GOP works, and the explanation for what happened here, is that the vast majority of their base simply doesn’t care about the actual substance of almost any of the economic or foreign policy positions of the Republican Party. They don’t give a fuck. There was a recent poll out showing that the number of Americans who want the government to “do more” is at its highest ever, and lots of people were surprised by this and wondering what it meant. I can’t help but think that the answer is so obvious that I don’t get why people are surprised by it. The GOP base’s position on whether the government is good and should do more has nothing to with policy – they don’t think in terms of “this policy is good and we should do more of it”. Their position is entirely driven by “is someone like me in charge – if so, yay government, if not, boo government”. Their ideological believe in the power of government is paper thin. It’s entirely about whose in charge. This is the exact same phenomenon we saw with Syria. And with the GOP position on trade. And with the GOP view of economic confidence.
     Democrats are not like this. When they lose power, they don’t lose their believe in these principles.
     And so of course the GOP base hates the new health care plan, because it is awful, and they have no ideological commitment to the principles causing the awfulness. They don’t give a flying fuck about these ideas in the abstract. They are totally fine with health care so long as a Republican is giving it to them. The fact that any journalist or politician would be surprised by this should be evidence that they barely understand their chosen profession.”
     A very well put and interesting point! Thanks DamnYankees!

363. Go team!!!

364. Go team!!!

365. I hope the Democrats take that assessment to heart, because it misstated the motivation, I think misses it entirely.
     The Democrats run on a platform that explicitly( or almost) states that if you are white then you are by definition better off and they represent everyone else first.
     So why wouldn’t those GOP voters want more government when the gop is in power? It’s the only time government is promising to do anything for them, or even to consider they might need something.
     And when someone points this out the answer is, you just don’t want to lose your privilege, just reinforcing the point.
     So yes, all those people want the GOP to be in charge, and they want government to function, and they want the government to do stuff. But not a Democratic government.

366. I hope the Democrats take that assessment to heart, because it misstated the motivation, I think misses it entirely.
     The Democrats run on a platform that explicitly( or almost) states that if you are white then you are by definition better off and they represent everyone else first.
     So why wouldn’t those GOP voters want more government when the gop is in power? It’s the only time government is promising to do anything for them, or even to consider they might need something.
     And when someone points this out the answer is, you just don’t want to lose your privilege, just reinforcing the point.
     So yes, all those people want the GOP to be in charge, and they want government to function, and they want the government to do stuff. But not a Democratic government.

367. The Democrats run on a platform that explicitly( or almost) states that if you are white then you are by definition better off and they represent everyone else first.

     get your head checked, pronto.

368. The Democrats run on a platform that explicitly( or almost) states that if you are white then you are by definition better off and they represent everyone else first.

     get your head checked, pronto.

369. I know Obamacare was very discriminatory against white people, at least until Obama left office. Potentially attacking Syria would have been, while Obama was in office. Free trade was great until Obama was in office. (At least this one stayed bad after he left.) People on the right, generally speaking, didn’t even notice how many people Obama deported, even though people on the left, to some degree, were complaining about it. Now it’s great. Hell, even golfing was bad when Obama did it. Trump, not so much…
     Those crazy white people!

370. I know Obamacare was very discriminatory against white people, at least until Obama left office. Potentially attacking Syria would have been, while Obama was in office. Free trade was great until Obama was in office. (At least this one stayed bad after he left.) People on the right, generally speaking, didn’t even notice how many people Obama deported, even though people on the left, to some degree, were complaining about it. Now it’s great. Hell, even golfing was bad when Obama did it. Trump, not so much…
     Those crazy white people!

371. I was thinking paid family leave and an increased minimum wage should be enacted for non-whites only. That would be cool.

372. I was thinking paid family leave and an increased minimum wage should be enacted for non-whites only. That would be cool.

373. I didn’t say that policy by policy that white people are discriminated against. In order to capture 90% of the Black vote and 70% of the Latino vote Dems regularly talk about crap like white privilege. So why would poor white people, or middle class white people for that matter, believe that they give a damn about them? So you get to upper middle class white people and you get a split, policy starts to matter more, then some GOP policies are favorable etc.
     But y’alls reaction is classic, and .makes my point. First disbelief and mocking and then specific generic policies points. So that’s why Trump is President and lots of people dont care if he changes his mind, he specifically says he cares about them. Isnt that why Latinos voted for a President that deported more of them than any President in history? Isnt that why gay people voted for someone who specifically was against gay marriage?

374. I didn’t say that policy by policy that white people are discriminated against. In order to capture 90% of the Black vote and 70% of the Latino vote Dems regularly talk about crap like white privilege. So why would poor white people, or middle class white people for that matter, believe that they give a damn about them? So you get to upper middle class white people and you get a split, policy starts to matter more, then some GOP policies are favorable etc.
     But y’alls reaction is classic, and .makes my point. First disbelief and mocking and then specific generic policies points. So that’s why Trump is President and lots of people dont care if he changes his mind, he specifically says he cares about them. Isnt that why Latinos voted for a President that deported more of them than any President in history? Isnt that why gay people voted for someone who specifically was against gay marriage?

375. Isnt that why gay people voted for someone who specifically was against gay marriage?
     Well, when both candidates are opposed, it doesn’t really make a difference in who you vote for.

376. Isnt that why gay people voted for someone who specifically was against gay marriage?
     Well, when both candidates are opposed, it doesn’t really make a difference in who you vote for.

377. now that he’s in office he’s essentially been captured by the donor class.
     LOL. For “captured”, read “likes to hang out with, because they can afford the membership fees at Mar e Lago”.
     The Democrats run on a platform that explicitly( or almost) states that if you are white then you are by definition better off and they represent everyone else first.
     I have no doubt that the majority of folks who voted for Trump see things exactly this way.
     that’s why Trump is President and lots of people dont care if he changes his mind, he specifically says he cares about them.
     More fools them.

378. now that he’s in office he’s essentially been captured by the donor class.
     LOL. For “captured”, read “likes to hang out with, because they can afford the membership fees at Mar e Lago”.
     The Democrats run on a platform that explicitly( or almost) states that if you are white then you are by definition better off and they represent everyone else first.
     I have no doubt that the majority of folks who voted for Trump see things exactly this way.
     that’s why Trump is President and lots of people dont care if he changes his mind, he specifically says he cares about them.
     More fools them.

379. Following up on Michael Cain’s post above, I think his example directly applies to the issue of health care insurance and also touches a nerve.
     The basic idea of insurance is to spread risk. If risk is really a random factor, most people are willing to go along with the idea of paying a premium for coverage that protects against unlikely catastrophic losses. The cost is tolerable because the probability is low. The benefit is security that is otherwise unavailable to most individuals.
     A problem arises when risk factors are not random, and may even be due to what some judge as irresonsible behavoir. “Why should I pay for your dissolute lifestyle?”
     I think this exemplifies a thread that runs through a lot of the disagreements showing up as identity politics in the discussion here: how tolerant should society be toward bad actors, freeloaders, takers?
     A policy that has to deal with millions of people can’t really judge individual worthiness on a case by case basis. Some set of broad strokes will be applied whether mandated by government or chosen by free-market actors. There will always be some people who game the system.
     In the particular case of health insurance the free market has shown itself to be unable to resolve serious deficiencies. This is why Obamacare came to be.
     I think a lot of the resentment directed at the ACA stems from the view that freeloaders are a big problem.

380. Following up on Michael Cain’s post above, I think his example directly applies to the issue of health care insurance and also touches a nerve.
     The basic idea of insurance is to spread risk. If risk is really a random factor, most people are willing to go along with the idea of paying a premium for coverage that protects against unlikely catastrophic losses. The cost is tolerable because the probability is low. The benefit is security that is otherwise unavailable to most individuals.
     A problem arises when risk factors are not random, and may even be due to what some judge as irresonsible behavoir. “Why should I pay for your dissolute lifestyle?”
     I think this exemplifies a thread that runs through a lot of the disagreements showing up as identity politics in the discussion here: how tolerant should society be toward bad actors, freeloaders, takers?
     A policy that has to deal with millions of people can’t really judge individual worthiness on a case by case basis. Some set of broad strokes will be applied whether mandated by government or chosen by free-market actors. There will always be some people who game the system.
     In the particular case of health insurance the free market has shown itself to be unable to resolve serious deficiencies. This is why Obamacare came to be.
     I think a lot of the resentment directed at the ACA stems from the view that freeloaders are a big problem.

381. Russell: For “captured”, read “likes to hang out with, because they can afford the membership fees at Mar e Lago”.
     I don’t think that’s really it. Trump has always been a wanna-be. He aspires to be accepted by the wealthy New York upper class as one of them. But has never felt like they regarded him with anything but contempt. (And in that he is probably correct.) To my mind, that was a big part of why he wanted to be President — it was his latest effort of “now they’ll have to accept me!”
     The money is nice, of course. He likes it partly because it’s the only way in which he can be like the people he aspires to join. But it’s mostly about acceptance, not wealth per se.

382. Russell: For “captured”, read “likes to hang out with, because they can afford the membership fees at Mar e Lago”.
     I don’t think that’s really it. Trump has always been a wanna-be. He aspires to be accepted by the wealthy New York upper class as one of them. But has never felt like they regarded him with anything but contempt. (And in that he is probably correct.) To my mind, that was a big part of why he wanted to be President — it was his latest effort of “now they’ll have to accept me!”
     The money is nice, of course. He likes it partly because it’s the only way in which he can be like the people he aspires to join. But it’s mostly about acceptance, not wealth per se.

383. In order to capture 90% of the Black vote and 70% of the Latino vote Dems regularly talk about crap like white privilege.
     This one really pegged my BS meter. It’s as if Blacks and Latinos have no agency and can easily be lulled into political allegiance by claims of “white privilege”.
     Why, it’s as if they really are a group of incurious simpletons, and have NO IDEA of where their interests lie.
     If there were no racial discrimination, one would expect black and latino votes to break along class, sex, religion, and education lines pretty much the same way the white vote breaks down along these same lines.
     But they don’t.
     Shame on the Republican Party for not having the honesty to look themselves in the mirror and ask, “Why izzat’?”
     SHAME.

384. In order to capture 90% of the Black vote and 70% of the Latino vote Dems regularly talk about crap like white privilege.
     This one really pegged my BS meter. It’s as if Blacks and Latinos have no agency and can easily be lulled into political allegiance by claims of “white privilege”.
     Why, it’s as if they really are a group of incurious simpletons, and have NO IDEA of where their interests lie.
     If there were no racial discrimination, one would expect black and latino votes to break along class, sex, religion, and education lines pretty much the same way the white vote breaks down along these same lines.
     But they don’t.
     Shame on the Republican Party for not having the honesty to look themselves in the mirror and ask, “Why izzat’?”
     SHAME.

385. Marty, just explain why the Republican base was so againt Obamacare (at least when it was called that and not ACA), but now that Obama’s out of office, they like it a whole lot more.
     My second comment as an over-the-top goof, but my first one, while humorous in tone, raised what I thought were serious questions. Or should I take your response to mean, “Yes, Trump voters don’t give a crap about policy. They’re just butt-hurt.” (Which was more or less the point all along.)

386. Marty, just explain why the Republican base was so againt Obamacare (at least when it was called that and not ACA), but now that Obama’s out of office, they like it a whole lot more.
     My second comment as an over-the-top goof, but my first one, while humorous in tone, raised what I thought were serious questions. Or should I take your response to mean, “Yes, Trump voters don’t give a crap about policy. They’re just butt-hurt.” (Which was more or less the point all along.)

387. In order to capture 90% of the Black vote and 70% of the Latino vote Dems regularly talk about crap like white privilege.
     yeah, that’s right. it’s a coordinated propaganda effort.
     “the Dems” made up a bunch of stuff to swing Blacks and Latinos but they haven’t found the exact right catch phrases to swing 80% of white people. stupid white Dems.
     listen to yourself.

388. In order to capture 90% of the Black vote and 70% of the Latino vote Dems regularly talk about crap like white privilege.
     yeah, that’s right. it’s a coordinated propaganda effort.
     “the Dems” made up a bunch of stuff to swing Blacks and Latinos but they haven’t found the exact right catch phrases to swing 80% of white people. stupid white Dems.
     listen to yourself.

389. To do a riff on what Bobby wrote:
     If there were no racial discrimination, one would expect black and latino votes to be skewed significantly towards the more socially conservative party.
     But they don’t.
     However given the outlook of a significant portion of its current base, there is no way for the Republican Party to even ask the question “Why izzat’?”
     Tragic.

390. To do a riff on what Bobby wrote:
     If there were no racial discrimination, one would expect black and latino votes to be skewed significantly towards the more socially conservative party.
     But they don’t.
     However given the outlook of a significant portion of its current base, there is no way for the Republican Party to even ask the question “Why izzat’?”
     Tragic.

391. I have long held that black Americans, as a group, are smarter than white Americans, as a group, based on which group votes in favor of its own interests and which one doesn’t.
     Dedicated Republicans can of course argue that black Americans must be too … something … to figure out what’s really in their own interest, unlike the politically savvy “white working class”. Such arguments are always entertaining.
     –TP

392. I have long held that black Americans, as a group, are smarter than white Americans, as a group, based on which group votes in favor of its own interests and which one doesn’t.
     Dedicated Republicans can of course argue that black Americans must be too … something … to figure out what’s really in their own interest, unlike the politically savvy “white working class”. Such arguments are always entertaining.
     –TP

393. But it’s mostly about acceptance, not wealth per se.
     That could be so. Maybe he’s been “captured” by the donor class because, now that he’s POTUS, they finally answer his calls. Maybe they tell him what a great job he’s doing, how misunderstood he is, and by the way can he put a word in for their tax cuts, or their favorite de-regulation effort.
     Either way, time to wake up and smell the coffee for all the poor neglected regular old white folks who voted for Trump because he “specifically says he cares about them”. Or, you know, whatever color, Marty just seems to think it’s a white thing.
     But, I doubt those kinds of second thoughts are on the agenda. DJT is their guy, and they’re sticking with that come hell or high water.
     More fools them.
     It makes me sad, actually, but there’s not a damned thing I can do about it. I’m one of those People Like Me, if I say anything critical of Trump it’s just because I’m angry that he won, or else I’m looking down on them again, or maybe I just don’t understand the plight and complaints of the put-upon regular folks of the heartland.
     Wherever the hell that is.
     So screw it. They’ll figure it out whenever they figure it out. Or else they won’t, in which case they’re gonna get rogered. Unless they’re already getting rogered, in which case they’re gonna get rogered twice.
     Not a freaking thing I can do about it. People think what they think, changing minds is far beyond my pay grade.
     It sucks, but the folks for whom it’s really gonna suck the most seem to want it.
     Go figure.

394. But it’s mostly about acceptance, not wealth per se.
     That could be so. Maybe he’s been “captured” by the donor class because, now that he’s POTUS, they finally answer his calls. Maybe they tell him what a great job he’s doing, how misunderstood he is, and by the way can he put a word in for their tax cuts, or their favorite de-regulation effort.
     Either way, time to wake up and smell the coffee for all the poor neglected regular old white folks who voted for Trump because he “specifically says he cares about them”. Or, you know, whatever color, Marty just seems to think it’s a white thing.
     But, I doubt those kinds of second thoughts are on the agenda. DJT is their guy, and they’re sticking with that come hell or high water.
     More fools them.
     It makes me sad, actually, but there’s not a damned thing I can do about it. I’m one of those People Like Me, if I say anything critical of Trump it’s just because I’m angry that he won, or else I’m looking down on them again, or maybe I just don’t understand the plight and complaints of the put-upon regular folks of the heartland.
     Wherever the hell that is.
     So screw it. They’ll figure it out whenever they figure it out. Or else they won’t, in which case they’re gonna get rogered. Unless they’re already getting rogered, in which case they’re gonna get rogered twice.
     Not a freaking thing I can do about it. People think what they think, changing minds is far beyond my pay grade.
     It sucks, but the folks for whom it’s really gonna suck the most seem to want it.
     Go figure.

395. In order to capture 90% of the Black vote and 70% of the Latino vote Dems regularly talk about crap like white privilege. So why would poor white people, or middle class white people for that matter, believe that they give a damn about them?
     The remarkable thing about the human brain is that, with practice and just the tiniest iota of intent, it can hold two different thoughts in play at the very same time.
     All other things being equal, in this country j-random white person has advantages that j-random black or brown person does not.
     And, poor and middle class people of all colors, including white, are up against it in the modern economy.
     If you don’t have some kind of perverse chip on your shoulder, you can probably get your head around the idea that (D)’s find both of those things to be, simultaneously, true.
     You might even recognize that there is something to both of them, yourself.
     Sometimes I think people just decide to be stupid. I’m sure that sounds rude and unsympathetic, but I can’t think of any other explanation for how some folks think and act. I really can’t.
     “They talked about white privilege. I’m poor and I lost my job, so where’s my white privilege?”.
     You can’t extend the scope of your imagination and understanding one inch beyond your immediate personal circumstance? You can’t be up against it, and simultaneously be exempt from issues and problems that other people can’t escape?
     If your boat is sinking, somebody else’s house can’t be on fire? And if someone else says “hey that guy’s house is on fire!”, they must automatically not give a shit about the fact that your boat is sinking?
     I take it back, it’s not a matter of being stupid, it’s more profound than that. It’s a matter of being so caught up in your own drama that you can’t see anybody else’s situation.
     That’s not a cognitive intelligence thing, it’s a moral intelligence thing.
     In any case, the worthy regular old white folk Trump supporters who think he’s gonna Make America Great Again in any way that improves their lot in life are basically going to get screwed.
     Then they’re gonna blame people like me for it, because we’re horrible snotty elitists.
     So, whatever. It’s a freaking brain fever, we just have to wait for it to play out. The patient will recover or the patient will die.
     I do what I can, but this stuff is way beyond anything I can make a dent in.
     Bon chance America.

396. In order to capture 90% of the Black vote and 70% of the Latino vote Dems regularly talk about crap like white privilege. So why would poor white people, or middle class white people for that matter, believe that they give a damn about them?
     The remarkable thing about the human brain is that, with practice and just the tiniest iota of intent, it can hold two different thoughts in play at the very same time.
     All other things being equal, in this country j-random white person has advantages that j-random black or brown person does not.
     And, poor and middle class people of all colors, including white, are up against it in the modern economy.
     If you don’t have some kind of perverse chip on your shoulder, you can probably get your head around the idea that (D)’s find both of those things to be, simultaneously, true.
     You might even recognize that there is something to both of them, yourself.
     Sometimes I think people just decide to be stupid. I’m sure that sounds rude and unsympathetic, but I can’t think of any other explanation for how some folks think and act. I really can’t.
     “They talked about white privilege. I’m poor and I lost my job, so where’s my white privilege?”.
     You can’t extend the scope of your imagination and understanding one inch beyond your immediate personal circumstance? You can’t be up against it, and simultaneously be exempt from issues and problems that other people can’t escape?
     If your boat is sinking, somebody else’s house can’t be on fire? And if someone else says “hey that guy’s house is on fire!”, they must automatically not give a shit about the fact that your boat is sinking?
     I take it back, it’s not a matter of being stupid, it’s more profound than that. It’s a matter of being so caught up in your own drama that you can’t see anybody else’s situation.
     That’s not a cognitive intelligence thing, it’s a moral intelligence thing.
     In any case, the worthy regular old white folk Trump supporters who think he’s gonna Make America Great Again in any way that improves their lot in life are basically going to get screwed.
     Then they’re gonna blame people like me for it, because we’re horrible snotty elitists.
     So, whatever. It’s a freaking brain fever, we just have to wait for it to play out. The patient will recover or the patient will die.
     I do what I can, but this stuff is way beyond anything I can make a dent in.
     Bon chance America.

397. People think what they think, changing minds is far beyond my pay grade.
     It’s his pay grade, maybe.

398. People think what they think, changing minds is far beyond my pay grade.
     It’s his pay grade, maybe.

399. It’s a matter of being so caught up in your own drama that you can’t see anybody else’s situation.
     In short, it’s being totally self-centered. Which may be the attraction of Trump. He epitomizes self-centeredness. Like calling to like?

400. It’s a matter of being so caught up in your own drama that you can’t see anybody else’s situation.
     In short, it’s being totally self-centered. Which may be the attraction of Trump. He epitomizes self-centeredness. Like calling to like?

401. It’s his pay grade, maybe
     I sure hope so.

402. It’s his pay grade, maybe
     I sure hope so.

403. russell:

     You can’t extend the scope of your imagination and understanding one inch beyond your immediate personal circumstance? You can’t be up against it, and simultaneously be exempt from issues and problems that other people can’t escape?

     If your boat is sinking, somebody else’s house can’t be on fire? And if someone else says “hey that guy’s house is on fire!”, they must automatically not give a shit about the fact that your boat is sinking?

     Here’s an illustration of this phenomenon so perfect you might think I made it up. But it’s from a 2009 discussion right here at Obsidian Wings about gay marriage:

     we should have a standard way to define who gets to visit people in the hospital (my sons cohabitating girlfriend of years would have no luck here either)…So my point is completely accurate, the discrimination is equally applied to all non married people. So instead of solving that problem, we will declare another set of people as “married”, they will get theirs and screww the rest.

     So gay people were shits (“I got mine, screw the rest” is the thought train invented for them by Marty) because they were selfishly campaigning only for their own rights, and not also for the rights of unmarried heterosexual couples to……get married??
     When it was pointed out to Marty that his son and his son’s girlfriend already had the right (to get married) that gay people were campaigning for…crickets.
     russell again: I take it back, it’s not a matter of being stupid, it’s more profound than that.
     I think you’re half right.

404. russell:

     You can’t extend the scope of your imagination and understanding one inch beyond your immediate personal circumstance? You can’t be up against it, and simultaneously be exempt from issues and problems that other people can’t escape?

     If your boat is sinking, somebody else’s house can’t be on fire? And if someone else says “hey that guy’s house is on fire!”, they must automatically not give a shit about the fact that your boat is sinking?

     Here’s an illustration of this phenomenon so perfect you might think I made it up. But it’s from a 2009 discussion right here at Obsidian Wings about gay marriage:

     we should have a standard way to define who gets to visit people in the hospital (my sons cohabitating girlfriend of years would have no luck here either)…So my point is completely accurate, the discrimination is equally applied to all non married people. So instead of solving that problem, we will declare another set of people as “married”, they will get theirs and screww the rest.

     So gay people were shits (“I got mine, screw the rest” is the thought train invented for them by Marty) because they were selfishly campaigning only for their own rights, and not also for the rights of unmarried heterosexual couples to……get married??
     When it was pointed out to Marty that his son and his son’s girlfriend already had the right (to get married) that gay people were campaigning for…crickets.
     russell again: I take it back, it’s not a matter of being stupid, it’s more profound than that.
     I think you’re half right.

405. Look, hold these two thoughts at the same time, no wait just one. No one cares when you criticize Trump, most every one criticizes him for one thing or another.
     I responded to a specific article that completely misses the point of how he got elected. Every person in this country votes for who they believe cares about them, their life, their job, their security. One side says it will take care of that and the other side says they are the problem. Wait, just the opposite for the other side.
     How is that hard to grasp? Why is it even debatable? But more important why is their side so bad for believing the people who pander to them? You dont think your side panders to you?
     They believe they are the good guys, they aren’t Marvel criminals laughing at the havoc they create. Even at the policy level, is there something inherently evil about school vouchers, or Medicare vouchers for that matter? Do you really think Ryan doesn’t believe his plan would make everyone better off? Or is he the Joker, (I know DC) giggling at fooling the masses?
     That’s a fucking conspiracy theory worthy of the birthers or the grassy knoll or the moon landing in New Mexico.
     Yet believing the Republicans really want things to be better makes one a fool. Why? Because your tribe is better, smarter, more caring, by definition. Not so much.

406. Look, hold these two thoughts at the same time, no wait just one. No one cares when you criticize Trump, most every one criticizes him for one thing or another.
     I responded to a specific article that completely misses the point of how he got elected. Every person in this country votes for who they believe cares about them, their life, their job, their security. One side says it will take care of that and the other side says they are the problem. Wait, just the opposite for the other side.
     How is that hard to grasp? Why is it even debatable? But more important why is their side so bad for believing the people who pander to them? You dont think your side panders to you?
     They believe they are the good guys, they aren’t Marvel criminals laughing at the havoc they create. Even at the policy level, is there something inherently evil about school vouchers, or Medicare vouchers for that matter? Do you really think Ryan doesn’t believe his plan would make everyone better off? Or is he the Joker, (I know DC) giggling at fooling the masses?
     That’s a fucking conspiracy theory worthy of the birthers or the grassy knoll or the moon landing in New Mexico.
     Yet believing the Republicans really want things to be better makes one a fool. Why? Because your tribe is better, smarter, more caring, by definition. Not so much.

407. Because your tribe is better, smarter, more caring, by definition.
     It’s only a tribe to the extent that a group of people agree on some number of important things, and it’s not better, smarter, and more caring by definition, but as a matter of how things currently are, in practice, for whatever reasons.

408. Because your tribe is better, smarter, more caring, by definition.
     It’s only a tribe to the extent that a group of people agree on some number of important things, and it’s not better, smarter, and more caring by definition, but as a matter of how things currently are, in practice, for whatever reasons.

409. Every person in this country votes for who they believe cares about them, their life, their job, their security.
     And this isn’t true. I vote for who I think can best run the country and make policy such that people generally, myself included, can take care of their lives, their jobs, and their security.
     The people wo do vote the way you say may well believe things that are patently untrue, so there’s also that. See Trump. You really think he gives a rat’s ass about anyone but himself and his immediate family. Where have you been for the last 30+ years?

410. Every person in this country votes for who they believe cares about them, their life, their job, their security.
     And this isn’t true. I vote for who I think can best run the country and make policy such that people generally, myself included, can take care of their lives, their jobs, and their security.
     The people wo do vote the way you say may well believe things that are patently untrue, so there’s also that. See Trump. You really think he gives a rat’s ass about anyone but himself and his immediate family. Where have you been for the last 30+ years?

411. Yet believing the Republicans really want things to be better makes one a fool.
     It is possible to believe these things simultaneously. And without contradiction.
     – That Republican voters sincerely want to make things better.
     – That Republican politicians sincerely believe that the policies they advocate will make things better. (At least for “their people” — however defined.)
     – That the actual, demonstrated in actual practice, impact of those policies will have a negative impact on a majority of the population, and on our society.

412. Yet believing the Republicans really want things to be better makes one a fool.
     It is possible to believe these things simultaneously. And without contradiction.
     – That Republican voters sincerely want to make things better.
     – That Republican politicians sincerely believe that the policies they advocate will make things better. (At least for “their people” — however defined.)
     – That the actual, demonstrated in actual practice, impact of those policies will have a negative impact on a majority of the population, and on our society.

413. One more thing, Republicans didn’t like the ACA because it was imposed on them. So it’s failings were more important than its successes.
     They were also told that it could have been better had they been given representation.
     The good side of that is they are holding their reps to that goal. Repeal is not acceptable, repeal and replace is expected to make it better.
     Nothing has really changed except who they are holding responsible. I think that’s how it should work.

414. One more thing, Republicans didn’t like the ACA because it was imposed on them. So it’s failings were more important than its successes.
     They were also told that it could have been better had they been given representation.
     The good side of that is they are holding their reps to that goal. Repeal is not acceptable, repeal and replace is expected to make it better.
     Nothing has really changed except who they are holding responsible. I think that’s how it should work.

415. “I vote for who I think can best run the country and make policy such that people generally, myself included, can take care of their lives, their jobs, and their security.”
     This in no meaningful way different than what I said. “Myself included” just makes the note that I believe if its good for me its probably good for most people, and vice versa.

416. “I vote for who I think can best run the country and make policy such that people generally, myself included, can take care of their lives, their jobs, and their security.”
     This in no meaningful way different than what I said. “Myself included” just makes the note that I believe if its good for me its probably good for most people, and vice versa.

417. Marty: Every person in this country votes for who they believe cares about them, their life, their job, their security.
     hairshirthedonist: And this isn’t true. I vote for who I think can best run the country and make policy such that people generally, myself included, can take care of their lives, their jobs, and their security.
     Thank you, hairshirt. Me too. Ideally, we the people are in this together. Health care is an issue for everyone. Access to opportunity is for everyone. Dignified retirement is for everyone. We should be working together on this. The ACA wasn’t “imposed”. We needed it. Most people are happy to have it, but realize that it needs to be improved. We can be together on that.
     I’m a lapsed Catholic, but I listened to the Pope twice. He didn’t say anything that we don’t all know. Not bad to be reminded though. (Also lovely to listen to the Italian, even if we need the subtitles as a crutch.)

418. Marty: Every person in this country votes for who they believe cares about them, their life, their job, their security.
     hairshirthedonist: And this isn’t true. I vote for who I think can best run the country and make policy such that people generally, myself included, can take care of their lives, their jobs, and their security.
     Thank you, hairshirt. Me too. Ideally, we the people are in this together. Health care is an issue for everyone. Access to opportunity is for everyone. Dignified retirement is for everyone. We should be working together on this. The ACA wasn’t “imposed”. We needed it. Most people are happy to have it, but realize that it needs to be improved. We can be together on that.
     I’m a lapsed Catholic, but I listened to the Pope twice. He didn’t say anything that we don’t all know. Not bad to be reminded though. (Also lovely to listen to the Italian, even if we need the subtitles as a crutch.)

419. This in no meaningful way different than what I said. “Myself included” just makes the note that I believe if its good for me its probably good for most people, and vice versa.
     It is different, unless one of us was being unclear. I don’t have some silly notion that the people I vote for care specifically about me or people like me. I want them to be competent and consider the bigger picture. What I was trying to say is that I’ll take care of my life, my job, and my security, provided that people in office don’t make it or allow it to become impossible.

420. This in no meaningful way different than what I said. “Myself included” just makes the note that I believe if its good for me its probably good for most people, and vice versa.
     It is different, unless one of us was being unclear. I don’t have some silly notion that the people I vote for care specifically about me or people like me. I want them to be competent and consider the bigger picture. What I was trying to say is that I’ll take care of my life, my job, and my security, provided that people in office don’t make it or allow it to become impossible.

421. One more thing, Republicans didn’t like the ACA because it was imposed on them. So it’s failings were more important than its successes.
     Considering the months of hearings and debate before the ACA was passed, one can only say that people could validly dislike anything and everything that they didn’t explicitly and approve of. Which nearly makes democratic government impossible.
     But the worse problem with this thesis, Marty, is the simple fact that, when asked about the features of the ACA, without the name, Republicans generally liked them. It’s pretty much impossible to avoid the conclusion that the fatal flaw of Obamacare was . . . the first 5 letters. Nothing more and nothing less.

422. One more thing, Republicans didn’t like the ACA because it was imposed on them. So it’s failings were more important than its successes.
     Considering the months of hearings and debate before the ACA was passed, one can only say that people could validly dislike anything and everything that they didn’t explicitly and approve of. Which nearly makes democratic government impossible.
     But the worse problem with this thesis, Marty, is the simple fact that, when asked about the features of the ACA, without the name, Republicans generally liked them. It’s pretty much impossible to avoid the conclusion that the fatal flaw of Obamacare was . . . the first 5 letters. Nothing more and nothing less.

423. What I was trying to say is that I’ll take care of my life, my job, and my security, provided that people in office don’t make it or allow it to become impossible.
     When you say things like that, a person who didn’t know better would take your belief in self-sufficiency to mean that you must be a Republican. 😉

424. What I was trying to say is that I’ll take care of my life, my job, and my security, provided that people in office don’t make it or allow it to become impossible.
     When you say things like that, a person who didn’t know better would take your belief in self-sufficiency to mean that you must be a Republican. 😉

425. Every person in this country votes for who they believe cares about them, their life, their job, their security
     that may be so.
     what every person in this country does not do is respond with resentment to attempts to help someone other than themselves.

426. Every person in this country votes for who they believe cares about them, their life, their job, their security
     that may be so.
     what every person in this country does not do is respond with resentment to attempts to help someone other than themselves.

427. Yet believing the Republicans really want things to be better makes one a fool
     actually, what I said was that believing that Donald J Trump has their best interest foremost in mind makes them fools. I stand by that.
     and for the record, like hairshirt, I quite often support and vote for policies that aren’t in my personal best interest. I don’t evaluate candidates based on what they say they are going to do for, specifically, me and mine.
     I don’t even support things based on “sticking it” to the very large number of folks who think people like me are flaming assholes. not even if they entertain themselves with fantasies of killing me or people like me. I don’t vote based on grudges. I’m not interested in sticking it to anyone. on the contrary.
     so no, it’s not “just the same”.

428. Yet believing the Republicans really want things to be better makes one a fool
     actually, what I said was that believing that Donald J Trump has their best interest foremost in mind makes them fools. I stand by that.
     and for the record, like hairshirt, I quite often support and vote for policies that aren’t in my personal best interest. I don’t evaluate candidates based on what they say they are going to do for, specifically, me and mine.
     I don’t even support things based on “sticking it” to the very large number of folks who think people like me are flaming assholes. not even if they entertain themselves with fantasies of killing me or people like me. I don’t vote based on grudges. I’m not interested in sticking it to anyone. on the contrary.
     so no, it’s not “just the same”.

429. When you say things like that, a person who didn’t know better would take your belief in self-sufficiency to mean that you must be a Republican.
     the mantle of basic common sense responsibilty, in both the personal and the civic spheres, has long since passed from the (R) party.

430. When you say things like that, a person who didn’t know better would take your belief in self-sufficiency to mean that you must be a Republican.
     the mantle of basic common sense responsibilty, in both the personal and the civic spheres, has long since passed from the (R) party.

431. The next reply in this exchange is obvious, do YOU really believe that people vote for people that they think are not interested in their well being? Because no one does that. Worst case they vote for someone who is least uncaring, Lesser of two evils.
     Would people vote for an individual policy that might be unfavorable to them but good for many? No doubt. Good people do that all the time. But IMHO, people don’t vote for a person or party that they believe does not care about their interests.
     If everyone on this blog is the exception to that rule I am still absolutely sure the rule is accurate.
     Every person I know is capable of “extending their imagination” to help others. Every one. Most people believe they are representative of the average American. Better or worse off today, but they inherently believe policies that will help everyone will be good for them.
     The mantle of a common sense of responsibility yada yada is just another way to declare your teams moral superiority.
     Can’t imagine why anyone would object to that. Or to quote cleek, listen to yourselves.

432. The next reply in this exchange is obvious, do YOU really believe that people vote for people that they think are not interested in their well being? Because no one does that. Worst case they vote for someone who is least uncaring, Lesser of two evils.
     Would people vote for an individual policy that might be unfavorable to them but good for many? No doubt. Good people do that all the time. But IMHO, people don’t vote for a person or party that they believe does not care about their interests.
     If everyone on this blog is the exception to that rule I am still absolutely sure the rule is accurate.
     Every person I know is capable of “extending their imagination” to help others. Every one. Most people believe they are representative of the average American. Better or worse off today, but they inherently believe policies that will help everyone will be good for them.
     The mantle of a common sense of responsibility yada yada is just another way to declare your teams moral superiority.
     Can’t imagine why anyone would object to that. Or to quote cleek, listen to yourselves.

433. And lots of them are outside the South and its overwhelming racial issues, so that’s not the real story.
     This is an error: the overwhelming racial issues are and always were nationwide. They just take a somewhat different form in the North, whose cities are the places African-Americans migrated to if they came out of the South. The formula from the Dick Gregory joke works pretty well: traditionally, Southern white racists want black people kept down, and Northern white racists want them gone far away.

434. And lots of them are outside the South and its overwhelming racial issues, so that’s not the real story.
     This is an error: the overwhelming racial issues are and always were nationwide. They just take a somewhat different form in the North, whose cities are the places African-Americans migrated to if they came out of the South. The formula from the Dick Gregory joke works pretty well: traditionally, Southern white racists want black people kept down, and Northern white racists want them gone far away.

435. Of course, the formulation of ‘everyone votes for their own interests’ is a fatuous tautology when you get down to it. I vote for open borders, less racism and more diversity because it is in my interest to have those.
     cf: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2017/0417/Instead-of-a-wall-an-open-door-Why-Ethiopia-welcomes-an-enemy-s-refugees?cmpid=editorpicks&google_editors_picks=true
     A strong gene pool is a diverse gene pool, and that goes for cultural practices and anything else you can think of. It might be the person who could cure cancer or make the next advance in computers, or any number of things may never surface, because we fail to give everyone an equal chance.
     I can’t remember exactly who, but someone on several occasions liked to bring up the fact that Asians were even greater victims of discrimination than whites, so it wasn’t racism in opposing affirmative action, because think of all those poor asians being kept out. But, strangely enough, Asians tend to vote for a party that continues to support AA. That’s because they tend to realize that they would benefit from a society that is more fair and less discriminatory. It’s not really rocket science.

436. Of course, the formulation of ‘everyone votes for their own interests’ is a fatuous tautology when you get down to it. I vote for open borders, less racism and more diversity because it is in my interest to have those.
     cf: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2017/0417/Instead-of-a-wall-an-open-door-Why-Ethiopia-welcomes-an-enemy-s-refugees?cmpid=editorpicks&google_editors_picks=true
     A strong gene pool is a diverse gene pool, and that goes for cultural practices and anything else you can think of. It might be the person who could cure cancer or make the next advance in computers, or any number of things may never surface, because we fail to give everyone an equal chance.
     I can’t remember exactly who, but someone on several occasions liked to bring up the fact that Asians were even greater victims of discrimination than whites, so it wasn’t racism in opposing affirmative action, because think of all those poor asians being kept out. But, strangely enough, Asians tend to vote for a party that continues to support AA. That’s because they tend to realize that they would benefit from a society that is more fair and less discriminatory. It’s not really rocket science.

437. so, Blacks and Latinos for overwhelmingly for Dems because they’ve been hoodwinked by the tricksy Dems, or because they are voting in their own self interest?

438. so, Blacks and Latinos for overwhelmingly for Dems because they’ve been hoodwinked by the tricksy Dems, or because they are voting in their own self interest?

439. do YOU really believe that people vote for people that they think are not interested in their well being?
     no.
     neither do i, as a white person, assume that if someone talks about “white privilege”, it means they are not interested in my well being.
     The mantle of a common sense of responsibility yada yada is just another way to declare your teams moral superiority.
     actually, it’s a reply to “your team’s” claims about yours.
     I’ll believe talk about being able to consider others’ situation in life when I see it. on the specific issue you raised, I don’t it.

440. do YOU really believe that people vote for people that they think are not interested in their well being?
     no.
     neither do i, as a white person, assume that if someone talks about “white privilege”, it means they are not interested in my well being.
     The mantle of a common sense of responsibility yada yada is just another way to declare your teams moral superiority.
     actually, it’s a reply to “your team’s” claims about yours.
     I’ll believe talk about being able to consider others’ situation in life when I see it. on the specific issue you raised, I don’t it.

441. “so, Blacks and Latinos for overwhelmingly for Dems because they’ve been hoodwinked by the tricksy Dems, or because they are voting in their own self interest?”
     Those two things are different?

442. “so, Blacks and Latinos for overwhelmingly for Dems because they’ve been hoodwinked by the tricksy Dems, or because they are voting in their own self interest?”
     Those two things are different?

443. asserting that Blacks and Latinos are too stupid to see through what all you brilliant white folks can see through might also explain why they don’t vote for the GOP.

444. asserting that Blacks and Latinos are too stupid to see through what all you brilliant white folks can see through might also explain why they don’t vote for the GOP.

445. The proposition that people tend to vote their self interests, real or just what they ‘think’ is real is pretty much a foundational assumption.
     No news there.
     What is BS is the claim ‘whites like us’ talk about white privilege SO WE CAN GET (to use the exact words uttered by somebody here) minority votes, with the further implication that somehow doing so actually works!
     If only politics were that easy.

446. The proposition that people tend to vote their self interests, real or just what they ‘think’ is real is pretty much a foundational assumption.
     No news there.
     What is BS is the claim ‘whites like us’ talk about white privilege SO WE CAN GET (to use the exact words uttered by somebody here) minority votes, with the further implication that somehow doing so actually works!
     If only politics were that easy.

447. Yes Den voters are brilliant and couldn’t possibly moved by marketing, positioning and identity politics, only those stupid GOP voters could be duped.
     Bah.

448. Yes Den voters are brilliant and couldn’t possibly moved by marketing, positioning and identity politics, only those stupid GOP voters could be duped.
     Bah.

449. I think it’s fair to say that Lillie Harden was hoodwinked by tricksy Dems, yes
     http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/tragic-end-woman-bill-clinton-exploited-poster-child-gutting-welfare

450. I think it’s fair to say that Lillie Harden was hoodwinked by tricksy Dems, yes
     http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/tragic-end-woman-bill-clinton-exploited-poster-child-gutting-welfare

451. Well, that’s great, Marty. So when I watch some GOP hack mouthpiece go on about “freedom”, “stifling regulations”, and “unleashing the job creators”, I will know they are just engaging in marketing and identity politics, saying that just SO THEY CAN GET the overwhelming support of the business community.
     Nice to know you think those ideas are just BS marketing ploys.

452. Well, that’s great, Marty. So when I watch some GOP hack mouthpiece go on about “freedom”, “stifling regulations”, and “unleashing the job creators”, I will know they are just engaging in marketing and identity politics, saying that just SO THEY CAN GET the overwhelming support of the business community.
     Nice to know you think those ideas are just BS marketing ploys.

453. I think it’s fair to say that Lillie Harden was hoodwinked by tricksy Dems, yes
     not surprisingly for AlterNet, that story doesn’t exactly live up to the headline.
     her life did improve. and her daughter went to college. her one son’s didn’t – dealing drugs and shooting people will tend to put a damper on one’s prospects. and then she ran into our shitty medical insurance system (for which Bill Clinton is to blame??)

454. I think it’s fair to say that Lillie Harden was hoodwinked by tricksy Dems, yes
     not surprisingly for AlterNet, that story doesn’t exactly live up to the headline.
     her life did improve. and her daughter went to college. her one son’s didn’t – dealing drugs and shooting people will tend to put a damper on one’s prospects. and then she ran into our shitty medical insurance system (for which Bill Clinton is to blame??)

455. It’s as though this whole conversation is taking place in a universe in which Donald Trump isn’t the President of the United States. That or a universe in which Donald Trump isn’t a known charlatan and scumbag. Or maybe a universe in which he’s a Democrat.

456. It’s as though this whole conversation is taking place in a universe in which Donald Trump isn’t the President of the United States. That or a universe in which Donald Trump isn’t a known charlatan and scumbag. Or maybe a universe in which he’s a Democrat.

457. oh he may be a scumbag, but he’s their scumbag. and they love him for it.
     don’t call it ‘identity politics’, though.

458. oh he may be a scumbag, but he’s their scumbag. and they love him for it.
     don’t call it ‘identity politics’, though.

459. I also tend to think that white privilege isn’t quite as prominent a topic as Marty purports it to be. I don’t recall it being a major subject, for instance, of the presidential-election debates. Then again, assuming it’s some form of hyper-sensitivity, it may be a very common one, particularly among Trump supporters.

460. I also tend to think that white privilege isn’t quite as prominent a topic as Marty purports it to be. I don’t recall it being a major subject, for instance, of the presidential-election debates. Then again, assuming it’s some form of hyper-sensitivity, it may be a very common one, particularly among Trump supporters.

461. hsh, it is one of two standard responses when white people say they deserve to be represented also. Particularly poor and lower middle class white people.
     Quit whining because white privilege and why can’t you see other people are in need (too)? The too is optional because, the first one.

462. hsh, it is one of two standard responses when white people say they deserve to be represented also. Particularly poor and lower middle class white people.
     Quit whining because white privilege and why can’t you see other people are in need (too)? The too is optional because, the first one.

463. Do you think poor and lower middle class whites are more poorly represented than other poor and lower middle class people? If so, do you really think Donald Trump or Republicans in general are going to help in that regard? Is it a matter of, say, throwing illegals out the country? Is that the thing (or one of the things) that will address their problems? Or what?

464. Do you think poor and lower middle class whites are more poorly represented than other poor and lower middle class people? If so, do you really think Donald Trump or Republicans in general are going to help in that regard? Is it a matter of, say, throwing illegals out the country? Is that the thing (or one of the things) that will address their problems? Or what?

465. I would love for Marty to come up with a list of “poor and lower middle class whites” in Congress.

466. I would love for Marty to come up with a list of “poor and lower middle class whites” in Congress.

467. Not to get the last word in – really, folks – but just to try and catch up with the thread.
     (Would people vote for an individual policy that might be unfavorable to them but good for many? No doubt. Good people do that all the time. But IMHO, people don’t vote for a person or party that they believe does not care about their interests.)
     I’m kind of sympathetic with Marty on this, though I understand hairshirt’s stance on voting for the right person for the job – especially in cases where we’re left with a lesser-of-two-evils scenario. And especially in times of severe gravity, you want who’s at the helm to know his/her ass from a hole in the ground, regardless of how disagreeably they may come across on TV or the internet.
     But one of the features of a democracy, even a(n grossly) imperfect one such as ours, is the idea that we believe that people running for high public office do indeed care about ordinary folks, at least in the abstract. What might differ about our latter-day crop is that an increasing number seem to be drawn more from the corporate ranks, where popularity isn’t an issue, yet is considered by at least by a fair number of people to be an acceptable stance of leadership. But there’s a reason why there’s a craze for populist appeals to connection with ordinary people – however misguided or misunderstood it may be as to what actually motivates people to roll out of bed to go and cast a vote, or whatever the opportunism is of the candidates doing the appealing.
     I don’t expect public officials to cure cancer. I do expect that they don’t cause it, and it helps tremendously to have said officials make that explicit, as it doesn’t require a great leap of empathy to grasp that people don’t like cancer. In the muddle over how we got to where we find ourselves now, it is inescapable that GOP policies still tend far more to cause said cancer than Dem ones, and they don’t appear to care all that much about the consequences of their policies. They don’t even appear to be bothered with reassuring their faithful of the sometimes-literal health hazards of their policies. As has been suggested upthread (and my apologies – I can’t remember who said it), even the GOP may think its faithful are resounding to one thing when they may be resounding to something else, so the disease they’ve gotten them to be all hot and bothered by isn’t what they should be protecting themselves against.
     A la Russell, we may have to grit our teeth and let this play out, however much damage it causes. Otherwise, it’s trying to argue about lung cancer with a guy who’s been a three-pack-a-day smoker for 25 years and tells you he’s fine, though is mortified over AIDS and the people he says have it. He isn’t convinced about his more plausible danger, and the more you redouble your effort, the more torked off he gets.

468. Not to get the last word in – really, folks – but just to try and catch up with the thread.
     (Would people vote for an individual policy that might be unfavorable to them but good for many? No doubt. Good people do that all the time. But IMHO, people don’t vote for a person or party that they believe does not care about their interests.)
     I’m kind of sympathetic with Marty on this, though I understand hairshirt’s stance on voting for the right person for the job – especially in cases where we’re left with a lesser-of-two-evils scenario. And especially in times of severe gravity, you want who’s at the helm to know his/her ass from a hole in the ground, regardless of how disagreeably they may come across on TV or the internet.
     But one of the features of a democracy, even a(n grossly) imperfect one such as ours, is the idea that we believe that people running for high public office do indeed care about ordinary folks, at least in the abstract. What might differ about our latter-day crop is that an increasing number seem to be drawn more from the corporate ranks, where popularity isn’t an issue, yet is considered by at least by a fair number of people to be an acceptable stance of leadership. But there’s a reason why there’s a craze for populist appeals to connection with ordinary people – however misguided or misunderstood it may be as to what actually motivates people to roll out of bed to go and cast a vote, or whatever the opportunism is of the candidates doing the appealing.
     I don’t expect public officials to cure cancer. I do expect that they don’t cause it, and it helps tremendously to have said officials make that explicit, as it doesn’t require a great leap of empathy to grasp that people don’t like cancer. In the muddle over how we got to where we find ourselves now, it is inescapable that GOP policies still tend far more to cause said cancer than Dem ones, and they don’t appear to care all that much about the consequences of their policies. They don’t even appear to be bothered with reassuring their faithful of the sometimes-literal health hazards of their policies. As has been suggested upthread (and my apologies – I can’t remember who said it), even the GOP may think its faithful are resounding to one thing when they may be resounding to something else, so the disease they’ve gotten them to be all hot and bothered by isn’t what they should be protecting themselves against.
     A la Russell, we may have to grit our teeth and let this play out, however much damage it causes. Otherwise, it’s trying to argue about lung cancer with a guy who’s been a three-pack-a-day smoker for 25 years and tells you he’s fine, though is mortified over AIDS and the people he says have it. He isn’t convinced about his more plausible danger, and the more you redouble your effort, the more torked off he gets.

469. it is one of two standard responses when white people say they deserve to be represented also.
     Hmmm….I wonder what the other one could be? It certainly couldn’t be this, I’m pretty sure.
     I’ll keep rummaging around in my propaganda trunk. It will turn up.

470. it is one of two standard responses when white people say they deserve to be represented also.
     Hmmm….I wonder what the other one could be? It certainly couldn’t be this, I’m pretty sure.
     I’ll keep rummaging around in my propaganda trunk. It will turn up.

471. (yet is considered by at least by a fair number of people to be an acceptable stance of leadership)
     I meant “an acceptable source of leadership.”
     Sorry folks.

472. (yet is considered by at least by a fair number of people to be an acceptable stance of leadership)
     I meant “an acceptable source of leadership.”
     Sorry folks.

473. I would love for Marty to come up with a list of “poor and lower middle class whites” in Congress.
     Here ya’go!
     Just sort out “them” to narrow it down.
     Do carry on. I have to go whine to my boss now.

474. I would love for Marty to come up with a list of “poor and lower middle class whites” in Congress.
     Here ya’go!
     Just sort out “them” to narrow it down.
     Do carry on. I have to go whine to my boss now.

475. “Hmmm….I wonder what the other one could be? ”
     They were both listed…..in case you misread it.

476. “Hmmm….I wonder what the other one could be? ”
     They were both listed…..in case you misread it.

477. Thynne: Allow us to introduce ourselves. My card.

     Seagoon: But it’s blank!

     Thynne: Business is bad.

478. Thynne: Allow us to introduce ourselves. My card.

     Seagoon: But it’s blank!

     Thynne: Business is bad.

479. hsh, it is one of two standard responses when white people say they deserve to be represented also. Particularly poor and lower middle class white people.
     Bacon’s Rebellion, redux.
     Who’s playing the role of Berkeley and his pals?

480. hsh, it is one of two standard responses when white people say they deserve to be represented also. Particularly poor and lower middle class white people.
     Bacon’s Rebellion, redux.
     Who’s playing the role of Berkeley and his pals?

481. what every person in this country does not do is respond with resentment to attempts to help someone other than themselves.
     Late to the party, but this I think is the crux.
     russell: the mantle of basic common sense responsibilty, in both the personal and the civic spheres, has long since passed from the (R) party.
     Marty: The mantle of a common sense of responsibility yada yada is just another way to declare your teams moral superiority.
     Can’t imagine why anyone would object to that. Or to quote cleek, listen to yourselves.
     Well Marty, it’s hard to square the concept of “basic common sense responsibilty, in both the personal and the civic spheres” with, to reach for just one of a huge number of examples (I’m sure others can come up with more), approving the lessening of environmental standards which protect people’s (particularly children’s) health. Who are these upstanding Republicans who genuinely think they are doing good thereby, as opposed to lining donors’ pockets?

482. what every person in this country does not do is respond with resentment to attempts to help someone other than themselves.
     Late to the party, but this I think is the crux.
     russell: the mantle of basic common sense responsibilty, in both the personal and the civic spheres, has long since passed from the (R) party.
     Marty: The mantle of a common sense of responsibility yada yada is just another way to declare your teams moral superiority.
     Can’t imagine why anyone would object to that. Or to quote cleek, listen to yourselves.
     Well Marty, it’s hard to square the concept of “basic common sense responsibilty, in both the personal and the civic spheres” with, to reach for just one of a huge number of examples (I’m sure others can come up with more), approving the lessening of environmental standards which protect people’s (particularly children’s) health. Who are these upstanding Republicans who genuinely think they are doing good thereby, as opposed to lining donors’ pockets?

483. GftNC,
     They are providing actual economic stimulus to support and create more and higher paying jobs. Coupled with the corporate tax relief, deregulation should double our GDP growth ensuring every one that wants to has valuable, well paying work. That wpuld certainly enhance the common good.

484. GftNC,
     They are providing actual economic stimulus to support and create more and higher paying jobs. Coupled with the corporate tax relief, deregulation should double our GDP growth ensuring every one that wants to has valuable, well paying work. That wpuld certainly enhance the common good.

485. GftNC quoting Marty: The mantle of a common sense of responsibility yada yada is just another way to declare your teams moral superiority.
     Yeah, the notion that Republicans don’t give a crap about the common good is some fever dream of “our” “team’s” self-delusions.

486. GftNC quoting Marty: The mantle of a common sense of responsibility yada yada is just another way to declare your teams moral superiority.
     Yeah, the notion that Republicans don’t give a crap about the common good is some fever dream of “our” “team’s” self-delusions.

487. Or, to apply Marty’s phrase where it belongs, they will get theirs and screww the rest.
     For those who didn’t follow my previous link: “They” being Republicans in Congress. If they have their way, their pre-existing conditions will continue to be covered; the rest of us can go to hell.

488. Or, to apply Marty’s phrase where it belongs, they will get theirs and screww the rest.
     For those who didn’t follow my previous link: “They” being Republicans in Congress. If they have their way, their pre-existing conditions will continue to be covered; the rest of us can go to hell.

489. Coupled with the corporate tax relief, deregulation should double our GDP growth ensuring every one that wants to has valuable, well paying work.
     Cool, we now have a measurable bar for the value and effectiveness of (R) policies.
     Based on your comment here, we’ll be looking for 5% GDP growth per annum, the re-entry of the disaffected worker cohort into the work force, and an across the board rise in median household income. For that last, let’s set a modest goal – 10%? 15%? Whatever seems reasonable.
     I’m assuming we’ll balance all of that against the financial cost of whatever harms de-regulation brings us. Measure that any way you like.
     Bookmark this comment and we’ll check back in a year. Or two years if you like.

490. Coupled with the corporate tax relief, deregulation should double our GDP growth ensuring every one that wants to has valuable, well paying work.
     Cool, we now have a measurable bar for the value and effectiveness of (R) policies.
     Based on your comment here, we’ll be looking for 5% GDP growth per annum, the re-entry of the disaffected worker cohort into the work force, and an across the board rise in median household income. For that last, let’s set a modest goal – 10%? 15%? Whatever seems reasonable.
     I’m assuming we’ll balance all of that against the financial cost of whatever harms de-regulation brings us. Measure that any way you like.
     Bookmark this comment and we’ll check back in a year. Or two years if you like.

491. Sorry, an update.
     Per these guys, the GDP growth number we should be looking for is 6-8% per year.
     Happy days! Can’t wait.

492. Sorry, an update.
     Per these guys, the GDP growth number we should be looking for is 6-8% per year.
     Happy days! Can’t wait.

493. for the record, like hairshirt, I quite often support and vote for policies that aren’t in my personal best interest. I don’t evaluate candidates based on what they say they are going to do for, specifically, me and mine.
     Perhaps a clearer way to phrase this would be:
     I believe that the best interests of the nation are my best interests. So I will vote for things that are not in my personal short-term best interests, because I am able to see that they will benefit the country as a whole — and so benefit me in the long run.

494. for the record, like hairshirt, I quite often support and vote for policies that aren’t in my personal best interest. I don’t evaluate candidates based on what they say they are going to do for, specifically, me and mine.
     Perhaps a clearer way to phrase this would be:
     I believe that the best interests of the nation are my best interests. So I will vote for things that are not in my personal short-term best interests, because I am able to see that they will benefit the country as a whole — and so benefit me in the long run.

495. Yeah, we need more supply-side BS. That’s what’s going to help poor white people. Feh…

496. Yeah, we need more supply-side BS. That’s what’s going to help poor white people. Feh…

497. For example, raising the top marginal tax rates, in order to provide everyone with some basic, minimal, level of medical care, is clearly not in my personal best interest. After all, I will end up paying more.
     But I see it as being good for the country.** And so worth the cost to me personally.
     ** For those unconcerned with the well-being of their fellow man, consider just the benefit to the country (and anyone who the mass of the population could consider wealthy; which is probably all of us) of not seeing riots by people with nothing to lose. And if you don’t think that kind of thing can happen here and now, well I can only say that your optimism would make Dr Pangloss proud.

498. For example, raising the top marginal tax rates, in order to provide everyone with some basic, minimal, level of medical care, is clearly not in my personal best interest. After all, I will end up paying more.
     But I see it as being good for the country.** And so worth the cost to me personally.
     ** For those unconcerned with the well-being of their fellow man, consider just the benefit to the country (and anyone who the mass of the population could consider wealthy; which is probably all of us) of not seeing riots by people with nothing to lose. And if you don’t think that kind of thing can happen here and now, well I can only say that your optimism would make Dr Pangloss proud.

499. I believe that the best interests of the nation are my best interests.
     Yes, I get that. Me, too.
     The contrast I was trying to make was with the folks who hear the phrase “white privilege” and immediately think “that guy wants to help black people but not me”.
     I actually do understand that a lot of people are up against it. However, I’m not sympathetic to folks who respond to that by resenting anyone else who gets help. Especially when the folks we are talking about also get a lot of help.
     Food stamps, assistance for housing, Medicaid, job training, etc. A lot of poor white folks get that stuff. I wish we had a good plan for getting them to the place that they didn’t need it, but I don’t think we do. I don’t share Marty’s optimism that removing regulations and reducing corporate taxes is going to magically change that.
     White folks are suffering, black folks are suffering, brown red and yellow folks are suffering. Times aren’t horrible, but they sure as hell have been better.
     We’re either all gonna help each other out, or we’re gonna be at each other’s throats. It seems to me we’re well down the latter path, and will continue to head that way for the foreseeable future. I don’t see great outcome coming out of that. And I don’t see making it ever more easy for wealthy people to pile up even more wealth is going to help, either.
     But WTF do I know. We’ll see what happens.
     Good luck everyone.

500. I believe that the best interests of the nation are my best interests.
     Yes, I get that. Me, too.
     The contrast I was trying to make was with the folks who hear the phrase “white privilege” and immediately think “that guy wants to help black people but not me”.
     I actually do understand that a lot of people are up against it. However, I’m not sympathetic to folks who respond to that by resenting anyone else who gets help. Especially when the folks we are talking about also get a lot of help.
     Food stamps, assistance for housing, Medicaid, job training, etc. A lot of poor white folks get that stuff. I wish we had a good plan for getting them to the place that they didn’t need it, but I don’t think we do. I don’t share Marty’s optimism that removing regulations and reducing corporate taxes is going to magically change that.
     White folks are suffering, black folks are suffering, brown red and yellow folks are suffering. Times aren’t horrible, but they sure as hell have been better.
     We’re either all gonna help each other out, or we’re gonna be at each other’s throats. It seems to me we’re well down the latter path, and will continue to head that way for the foreseeable future. I don’t see great outcome coming out of that. And I don’t see making it ever more easy for wealthy people to pile up even more wealth is going to help, either.
     But WTF do I know. We’ll see what happens.
     Good luck everyone.

501. I’ve been told it’s just tribal but kayfabe vs satire better explains how we got here. http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/04/belief-is-truth-by-bloggersrus.html

502. I’ve been told it’s just tribal but kayfabe vs satire better explains how we got here. http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/04/belief-is-truth-by-bloggersrus.html

503. Marty: they inherently believe policies that will help everyone will be good for them.
     I think you’ve got this wrong way round here. (But did have it correctly earlier). What they believe is that things which are good for them will help everyone. Not quite the same thing. Because what you have written here is more like what the people you are arguing with are saying.

504. Marty: they inherently believe policies that will help everyone will be good for them.
     I think you’ve got this wrong way round here. (But did have it correctly earlier). What they believe is that things which are good for them will help everyone. Not quite the same thing. Because what you have written here is more like what the people you are arguing with are saying.

505. For those unconcerned with the well-being of their fellow man, consider just the benefit to the country (and anyone who the mass of the population could consider wealthy; which is probably all of us) of not seeing riots by people with nothing to lose
     I’ve always thought this was an unbeatable secondary argument, and many rich people would no doubt agree (certainly all the sensible ones). In fact, I remember seeing this very argument put forth by one of the billionaire tech guys a couple of years ago, but I can’t remember which one (presumably not Peter Thiel!)

506. For those unconcerned with the well-being of their fellow man, consider just the benefit to the country (and anyone who the mass of the population could consider wealthy; which is probably all of us) of not seeing riots by people with nothing to lose
     I’ve always thought this was an unbeatable secondary argument, and many rich people would no doubt agree (certainly all the sensible ones). In fact, I remember seeing this very argument put forth by one of the billionaire tech guys a couple of years ago, but I can’t remember which one (presumably not Peter Thiel!)

507. folks who hear the phrase “white privilege” and immediately think “that guy wants to help black people but not me”.
     those folks might find it helpful to think of ‘privilege’ (in this sense) as the flip-side of ‘bias’.
     your privilege is the absence of a bias that drags on other people.
     of course, then they’ll just deny that the bias exists (hi, McTx!). so, maybe not.

508. folks who hear the phrase “white privilege” and immediately think “that guy wants to help black people but not me”.
     those folks might find it helpful to think of ‘privilege’ (in this sense) as the flip-side of ‘bias’.
     your privilege is the absence of a bias that drags on other people.
     of course, then they’ll just deny that the bias exists (hi, McTx!). so, maybe not.

509. russell: I don’t share Marty’s optimism that removing regulations and reducing corporate taxes is going to magically change that.
     Nor do I. If you think the gains from those policy changes will go to workers rather than to higher profits/shares for the top people, I have a bridge to sell you, based on the entire history of the past forty years. I’m on the wrong computer, or I would get out my graph of the changing share of after-tax income post-Reagan.
     What a joke.

510. russell: I don’t share Marty’s optimism that removing regulations and reducing corporate taxes is going to magically change that.
     Nor do I. If you think the gains from those policy changes will go to workers rather than to higher profits/shares for the top people, I have a bridge to sell you, based on the entire history of the past forty years. I’m on the wrong computer, or I would get out my graph of the changing share of after-tax income post-Reagan.
     What a joke.

511. Well cleek, if that is what you take away from this article, it’s little wonder the US ended up with Trump.

512. Well cleek, if that is what you take away from this article, it’s little wonder the US ended up with Trump.

513. novakant, to which article are your referring?

514. novakant, to which article are your referring?

515. This one:
     http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/tragic-end-woman-bill-clinton-exploited-poster-child-gutting-welfare
     I also linked to this one earlier:
     https://www.thenation.com/article/why-it-matters-that-hillary-clinton-championed-welfare-reform/

516. This one:
     http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/tragic-end-woman-bill-clinton-exploited-poster-child-gutting-welfare
     I also linked to this one earlier:
     https://www.thenation.com/article/why-it-matters-that-hillary-clinton-championed-welfare-reform/

517. are you referring, goddamit.
     But I’ve just looked back and seen, I assume the Lillie Harden article. Ah.
     Apart from that, obvs I too think Marty’s response to my question is, ahem, unlikely to be true. But it will indeed be interesting to see how it measures up as time goes by.

518. are you referring, goddamit.
     But I’ve just looked back and seen, I assume the Lillie Harden article. Ah.
     Apart from that, obvs I too think Marty’s response to my question is, ahem, unlikely to be true. But it will indeed be interesting to see how it measures up as time goes by.

519. if that is what you take away from this article, it’s little wonder the US ended up with Trump.
     a 2015 article weakly attacking Bill Clinton for not solving America’s welfare system 20 years prior, and then guilt-by-associating the issue onto HRC. good stuff!
     there’s a reason AlterNet was the first of the things i blocked in my FB feed, once the Berners got going last spring.

520. if that is what you take away from this article, it’s little wonder the US ended up with Trump.
     a 2015 article weakly attacking Bill Clinton for not solving America’s welfare system 20 years prior, and then guilt-by-associating the issue onto HRC. good stuff!
     there’s a reason AlterNet was the first of the things i blocked in my FB feed, once the Berners got going last spring.

521. Shocking, Trump tax plan a big nothing burger, to the extent it’s a something burger it’s massive tax cuts for the wealthy and a big FU to states with individual income taxes (b/c it eliminates the ability to itemize state and local taxes on return).
     DOA in Congress.

522. Shocking, Trump tax plan a big nothing burger, to the extent it’s a something burger it’s massive tax cuts for the wealthy and a big FU to states with individual income taxes (b/c it eliminates the ability to itemize state and local taxes on return).
     DOA in Congress.

523. it eliminates the ability to itemize state and local taxes on return
     b.b.b.b.b.bbbbb but double taxation!

524. it eliminates the ability to itemize state and local taxes on return
     b.b.b.b.b.bbbbb but double taxation!

525. I found those graphs on compensation versus productivity for you essentially total compensation has tracked productivity gains almost exactly over the last 40 years. Despite the mantra that it hasn’t. And yes wealth inequality bad, but from other factors.

526. I found those graphs on compensation versus productivity for you essentially total compensation has tracked productivity gains almost exactly over the last 40 years. Despite the mantra that it hasn’t. And yes wealth inequality bad, but from other factors.

527. wj, quoting? Marty: they inherently believe policies that will help everyone will be good for them.
     wj:I think you’ve got this wrong way round here. (But did have it correctly earlier). What they believe is that things which are good for them will help everyone. Not quite the same thing.

     So if you like what you eat, do you eat what you like?

528. wj, quoting? Marty: they inherently believe policies that will help everyone will be good for them.
     wj:I think you’ve got this wrong way round here. (But did have it correctly earlier). What they believe is that things which are good for them will help everyone. Not quite the same thing.

     So if you like what you eat, do you eat what you like?

529. There’s also the mantra of “The Heritage Foundation can’t be trusted with numbers”, that you’ll have to address.

530. There’s also the mantra of “The Heritage Foundation can’t be trusted with numbers”, that you’ll have to address.

531. Productivity rose 100 percent between 1973 and 2012, while hourly employee compensation rose almost as much—77 percent.

     i guess 77% is almost as much as 100% ?

532. Productivity rose 100 percent between 1973 and 2012, while hourly employee compensation rose almost as much—77 percent.

     i guess 77% is almost as much as 100% ?

533. “White privilege” = “Not getting gunned down by cops (or cop wannabes) for no particular reason”
     Not that there isn’t other areas of “white privilege”, but they are a bit less important.
     I, for one, am perfectly okay with removing Marty’s ‘white privilege’, so that we don’t get to bitch at him about it any more.

534. “White privilege” = “Not getting gunned down by cops (or cop wannabes) for no particular reason”
     Not that there isn’t other areas of “white privilege”, but they are a bit less important.
     I, for one, am perfectly okay with removing Marty’s ‘white privilege’, so that we don’t get to bitch at him about it any more.

535. The republican Party can fuck off and die:
     http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/04/republicans-dont-want-eat-their-own-dog-food

536. The republican Party can fuck off and die:
     http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/04/republicans-dont-want-eat-their-own-dog-food

537. then they’ll just deny that the bias exists (hi, McTx!). so, maybe not.
     No one denies bias exists. Rather, it’s the evolving nature and extent–past, present and future–and the role it plays in how one’s career is affected, for good or for bad. The left (speaking generally), IMO, is stuck in the sixties when it comes to race. Plus, there are votes to be had by screaming “Jim Crow!” and “Turning back the clock!” when addressing an African American audience.
     White privilege, if it can be defined with any reasonable degree of meaning, is much less today than ever before. It is, like the phrase “old white men” more often than not, a means of dismissing substantive arguments without engagement. The Progressive Left, in general, is very color conscious and does impute characteristics to people based on skin color, e.g. ‘old white men’, which is a form of racism itself (and ageism). It explicitly calls for judgment based on the race and age of the person in question.
     The Progressive Left also has a lot of trouble squaring the circle of racist America with the success enjoyed by any number of clearly non-white groups in the US. I’ve seen the various efforts, most recently in The Atlantic. They are incoherent.
     “White privilege” = “Not getting gunned down by cops (or cop wannabes) for no particular reason”
     Progressive Privilege = pretending that Michael Brown was shot “for no particular reason”. Pretending the BLM’s’ incendiary language did not play a role in inciting random assassination of police officers. Pretending that black-on-black murder and black-on-white murder do not dwarf unjustified police shootings of black people.
     I’ll address the awesomeness of the Progressive Unicorn of a wisely regulated economy that successfully feeds, clothes, shelters, provides healthcare and a little spending money for everyone, now and forever, some other time. Oh, and that includes paid family leave for everyone. And successfully fighting Climate Change. And other good stuff too! Yes, we can have it all.

538. then they’ll just deny that the bias exists (hi, McTx!). so, maybe not.
     No one denies bias exists. Rather, it’s the evolving nature and extent–past, present and future–and the role it plays in how one’s career is affected, for good or for bad. The left (speaking generally), IMO, is stuck in the sixties when it comes to race. Plus, there are votes to be had by screaming “Jim Crow!” and “Turning back the clock!” when addressing an African American audience.
     White privilege, if it can be defined with any reasonable degree of meaning, is much less today than ever before. It is, like the phrase “old white men” more often than not, a means of dismissing substantive arguments without engagement. The Progressive Left, in general, is very color conscious and does impute characteristics to people based on skin color, e.g. ‘old white men’, which is a form of racism itself (and ageism). It explicitly calls for judgment based on the race and age of the person in question.
     The Progressive Left also has a lot of trouble squaring the circle of racist America with the success enjoyed by any number of clearly non-white groups in the US. I’ve seen the various efforts, most recently in The Atlantic. They are incoherent.
     “White privilege” = “Not getting gunned down by cops (or cop wannabes) for no particular reason”
     Progressive Privilege = pretending that Michael Brown was shot “for no particular reason”. Pretending the BLM’s’ incendiary language did not play a role in inciting random assassination of police officers. Pretending that black-on-black murder and black-on-white murder do not dwarf unjustified police shootings of black people.
     I’ll address the awesomeness of the Progressive Unicorn of a wisely regulated economy that successfully feeds, clothes, shelters, provides healthcare and a little spending money for everyone, now and forever, some other time. Oh, and that includes paid family leave for everyone. And successfully fighting Climate Change. And other good stuff too! Yes, we can have it all.

539. You say Heritage, I say BLS.
     Pick yer poison.

540. You say Heritage, I say BLS.
     Pick yer poison.

541. Yes, we can have it all.
     Whatever.
     I’m 60. When I was born, Ike was president. My observation is that (R) policies from Reagan to now absolutely suck for regular folks, and (D) policies don’t.
     People vote for whoever they want to vote for, for whatever reasons are important to them. Do what you want to do, believe what you want to believe, live your life.
     Nonetheless, (R) policies from Reagan on have hollowed the freaking heart out of public life for regular folks.
     Feel free to argue about why Michael Brown was shot, or whether the blacks are cutting in line in front of worthy white poor folk who are just trying to get a fair shake. Feel free to argue about who the real racists are, or who really cares the most about America’s poor forgotten rank and file.
     Whatever. Yada yada yada, as Marty says.
     (R) policies screw regular people to the freaking wall. (D) policies don’t.
     If you want to vote accordingly, fine. If you don’t, fine. But it is what it is.
     To respond to wj’s original question, I have no freaking idea. Maybe it’s traditional family stuff, but I don’t see much difference in the quality of family life and values between any of the blue and red folks I know. Your guess is as good as mine.
     I vote for (D)’s because I think their policies are better for most people. I think that because, when I look around me and look at the history I personally have lived through, that is the almost self-evidently obvious conclusion I come to.
     We all see the world our own way.
     Enjoy your afternoon!

542. Yes, we can have it all.
     Whatever.
     I’m 60. When I was born, Ike was president. My observation is that (R) policies from Reagan to now absolutely suck for regular folks, and (D) policies don’t.
     People vote for whoever they want to vote for, for whatever reasons are important to them. Do what you want to do, believe what you want to believe, live your life.
     Nonetheless, (R) policies from Reagan on have hollowed the freaking heart out of public life for regular folks.
     Feel free to argue about why Michael Brown was shot, or whether the blacks are cutting in line in front of worthy white poor folk who are just trying to get a fair shake. Feel free to argue about who the real racists are, or who really cares the most about America’s poor forgotten rank and file.
     Whatever. Yada yada yada, as Marty says.
     (R) policies screw regular people to the freaking wall. (D) policies don’t.
     If you want to vote accordingly, fine. If you don’t, fine. But it is what it is.
     To respond to wj’s original question, I have no freaking idea. Maybe it’s traditional family stuff, but I don’t see much difference in the quality of family life and values between any of the blue and red folks I know. Your guess is as good as mine.
     I vote for (D)’s because I think their policies are better for most people. I think that because, when I look around me and look at the history I personally have lived through, that is the almost self-evidently obvious conclusion I come to.
     We all see the world our own way.
     Enjoy your afternoon!

543. White privilege, if it can be defined with any reasonable degree of meaning, is much less today than ever before.
     This is definitely true, especially if the standard of comparison is the 1950s and 1960s (not to mention earlier). Anyone who has studied history, not to mention all of us who lived thru those years, knows it. But it does not mean — as it is all too often used to mean — that the current level of privilege is insignificant.
     “Better” does not mean “good”. Not that getting better is not desirable, because it definitely is. Not that it shouldn’t be acknowledged. Just that better isn’t proof that change has been sufficient.

544. White privilege, if it can be defined with any reasonable degree of meaning, is much less today than ever before.
     This is definitely true, especially if the standard of comparison is the 1950s and 1960s (not to mention earlier). Anyone who has studied history, not to mention all of us who lived thru those years, knows it. But it does not mean — as it is all too often used to mean — that the current level of privilege is insignificant.
     “Better” does not mean “good”. Not that getting better is not desirable, because it definitely is. Not that it shouldn’t be acknowledged. Just that better isn’t proof that change has been sufficient.

545. White privilege:
     One of the most blatantly obvious things to me about living in the US is that black and brown people are treated differently than not-black-and-brown people.
     Because they’re black and brown.
     If you read that and don’t recognize that it’s true, than there is no point in even discussing it. We live in different worlds.
     If you recognize that it’s true, then amazingly enough, you have stumbled across the reality of white privilege. It’s nothing more or less than that.
     I’m not really interested in measuring and comparing the amount of white privilege 50 or 100 years ago to now. I live now.
     It’s a thing. If it bugs you when people say it’s a thing, check your head.
     Thanks.

546. White privilege:
     One of the most blatantly obvious things to me about living in the US is that black and brown people are treated differently than not-black-and-brown people.
     Because they’re black and brown.
     If you read that and don’t recognize that it’s true, than there is no point in even discussing it. We live in different worlds.
     If you recognize that it’s true, then amazingly enough, you have stumbled across the reality of white privilege. It’s nothing more or less than that.
     I’m not really interested in measuring and comparing the amount of white privilege 50 or 100 years ago to now. I live now.
     It’s a thing. If it bugs you when people say it’s a thing, check your head.
     Thanks.

547. cleek, you can also read the Atlantic and other publications about this matter so, the former even has the original critique from 1997 by Edelman who is someone who should know, aptly titled as well:
     https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1997/03/the-worst-thing-bill-clinton-has-done/376797/

548. cleek, you can also read the Atlantic and other publications about this matter so, the former even has the original critique from 1997 by Edelman who is someone who should know, aptly titled as well:
     https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1997/03/the-worst-thing-bill-clinton-has-done/376797/

549. Bill Clinton raised taxes. The economy boomed.
     Dick and Dubya cut taxes. Twice. The economy tanked.
     Obama raised them, finally. The economy recovered.
     We’ve done the goddam experiment, but empirical evidence means nothing to ideologues.
     As for this white-privilege-is-overstated thing, I cannot express how fervently I wish Marty and McKinney would wake up black tomorrow.
     –TP

550. Bill Clinton raised taxes. The economy boomed.
     Dick and Dubya cut taxes. Twice. The economy tanked.
     Obama raised them, finally. The economy recovered.
     We’ve done the goddam experiment, but empirical evidence means nothing to ideologues.
     As for this white-privilege-is-overstated thing, I cannot express how fervently I wish Marty and McKinney would wake up black tomorrow.
     –TP

551. As for this white-privilege-is-overstated thing, I cannot express how fervently I wish Marty and McKinney would wake up black tomorrow.
     If I were black and everything else about me remained more or less the same, I’d be a huge beneficiary of the diversity push that’s been around since before I applied for law school.

552. As for this white-privilege-is-overstated thing, I cannot express how fervently I wish Marty and McKinney would wake up black tomorrow.
     If I were black and everything else about me remained more or less the same, I’d be a huge beneficiary of the diversity push that’s been around since before I applied for law school.

553. I’d be a huge beneficiary of the diversity push that’s been around since before I applied for law school.
     and if “being employed” was literally the only thing you did in life, that would work out great for you.

554. I’d be a huge beneficiary of the diversity push that’s been around since before I applied for law school.
     and if “being employed” was literally the only thing you did in life, that would work out great for you.

555. about this matter
     what are you trying to convince me of?
     nobody here has claimed that, 20 years ago, Bill Clinton fixed welfare once and for all.

556. about this matter
     what are you trying to convince me of?
     nobody here has claimed that, 20 years ago, Bill Clinton fixed welfare once and for all.

557. “Bill Clinton raised taxes. The economy boomed.
     Dick and Dubya cut taxes. Twice. The economy tanked.
     Obama raised them, finally. The economy recovered.
     We’ve done the goddam experiment, but empirical evidence means nothing to ideologues.”
     There is absolutely no relationship between these things. It serves to remind how easy it is to organize facts into completely unsupportable conclusions. The difference is if I cut taxes today the ultimate result isn’t tomorrow morning. If I hand out more money the impact is tomorrow, and mostly just tomorrow.

558. “Bill Clinton raised taxes. The economy boomed.
     Dick and Dubya cut taxes. Twice. The economy tanked.
     Obama raised them, finally. The economy recovered.
     We’ve done the goddam experiment, but empirical evidence means nothing to ideologues.”
     There is absolutely no relationship between these things. It serves to remind how easy it is to organize facts into completely unsupportable conclusions. The difference is if I cut taxes today the ultimate result isn’t tomorrow morning. If I hand out more money the impact is tomorrow, and mostly just tomorrow.

559. If I were black and everything else about me remained more or less the same
     If you were black, a lot of things about you would not remain more or less that same.
     *You* might be the same. A lot of things *about* you would not.
     But yes, there might be some opportunities available to you in the form of diversity efforts.
     Maybe it would be a fair swap. Hard to say.
     But whatever you got out of it, you would not be treated the same way that white McK is treated. Because you would be black. And by far, most of that differential would not be either to your benefit or your liking.
     If you don’t recognize that, it’s probably not worth discussing further.

560. If I were black and everything else about me remained more or less the same
     If you were black, a lot of things about you would not remain more or less that same.
     *You* might be the same. A lot of things *about* you would not.
     But yes, there might be some opportunities available to you in the form of diversity efforts.
     Maybe it would be a fair swap. Hard to say.
     But whatever you got out of it, you would not be treated the same way that white McK is treated. Because you would be black. And by far, most of that differential would not be either to your benefit or your liking.
     If you don’t recognize that, it’s probably not worth discussing further.

561. My comment was spammed.
     wj: Looked. Didn’t see it in the spam folder.
     Sorry.

562. My comment was spammed.
     wj: Looked. Didn’t see it in the spam folder.
     Sorry.

563. Marty: There is absolutely no relationship between these things.
     What things?
     If you mean that there’s no relationship between tax cuts and economic growth, then you’ll look a fool if you ever repeat any sort of trickle-down or dynamic-scoring arguments for tax cuts.
     –TP

564. Marty: There is absolutely no relationship between these things.
     What things?
     If you mean that there’s no relationship between tax cuts and economic growth, then you’ll look a fool if you ever repeat any sort of trickle-down or dynamic-scoring arguments for tax cuts.
     –TP

565. There is absolutely no relationship between these things.
     I agree (to some extent)! So when you claim that cutting taxes will increase economic growth, you are just, blovia well…..what, exactly?

566. There is absolutely no relationship between these things.
     I agree (to some extent)! So when you claim that cutting taxes will increase economic growth, you are just, blovia well…..what, exactly?

567. I cannot express how fervently I wish Marty and McKinney would wake up black tomorrow.
     You mean we don’t roast there here enough as it is?
     badda-boom. badda-bing.

568. I cannot express how fervently I wish Marty and McKinney would wake up black tomorrow.
     You mean we don’t roast there here enough as it is?
     badda-boom. badda-bing.

569. And by far, most of that differential would not be either to your benefit or your liking.
     If you don’t recognize that, it’s probably not worth discussing further.
     Ok, several things here. First, you *know* that being black in and of itself entails being treated considerably different and not in a good way? You know this how?
     Second, you are saying that if I don’t accept your take on things, there is just no point in further discussion?
     Does this mean that your position is so clearly correct that there cannot be evidence to the contrary?

570. And by far, most of that differential would not be either to your benefit or your liking.
     If you don’t recognize that, it’s probably not worth discussing further.
     Ok, several things here. First, you *know* that being black in and of itself entails being treated considerably different and not in a good way? You know this how?
     Second, you are saying that if I don’t accept your take on things, there is just no point in further discussion?
     Does this mean that your position is so clearly correct that there cannot be evidence to the contrary?

571. McKinney, do you think that this would have happened to you?
     Do you think that what happened to Trayvon Martin would have happened to a white teenager (and all of the other similar violence against African-Americans that we’ve seen)?
     Really?

572. McKinney, do you think that this would have happened to you?
     Do you think that what happened to Trayvon Martin would have happened to a white teenager (and all of the other similar violence against African-Americans that we’ve seen)?
     Really?

573. Opinions of shape of Earth differ.

574. Opinions of shape of Earth differ.

575. Pretty obviously, you can look at what happened to Michael Brown in Ferguson, and see it as proving that complaints that blacks get treated unfairly are baseless. Or you can look at what happened to Trayvon Martin in Sanford, and see it as proving that blacks do get treated unfairly and unequally.
     Somehow we all have trouble seeing that both are cases of confirmation bias. That is, we take a single data point, and claim it proves our point. In fact, either way requires looking at a mass of data. Then you can at least say something meaningful about how various groups are treated.

576. Pretty obviously, you can look at what happened to Michael Brown in Ferguson, and see it as proving that complaints that blacks get treated unfairly are baseless. Or you can look at what happened to Trayvon Martin in Sanford, and see it as proving that blacks do get treated unfairly and unequally.
     Somehow we all have trouble seeing that both are cases of confirmation bias. That is, we take a single data point, and claim it proves our point. In fact, either way requires looking at a mass of data. Then you can at least say something meaningful about how various groups are treated.

577. In fact, either way requires looking at a mass of data.
     Okay.

578. In fact, either way requires looking at a mass of data.
     Okay.

579. [wj: Thanks for looking in the spam folder for my lost comment. Just to describe what happened, I posted a comment, saw it appear (although one sentence seemed to be out of place – I attributed that to something I did). Then later, I refreshed, but it wasn’t there. Just letting you know in case it helps with technical issues in some way. Anyway, let me say again that I appreciate your having looked for it.]

580. [wj: Thanks for looking in the spam folder for my lost comment. Just to describe what happened, I posted a comment, saw it appear (although one sentence seemed to be out of place – I attributed that to something I did). Then later, I refreshed, but it wasn’t there. Just letting you know in case it helps with technical issues in some way. Anyway, let me say again that I appreciate your having looked for it.]

581. McT’s argument has anyone who is not black and points out the problems as being an unreliable witness. Any black person who complains is obviously biased. Any black person who ends up like Michael Brown, Trayon Martin, Eric Garner, etc etc is obviously asking for it. Epistemic closure, eh?
     Making this about what russell is willing to discuss is simply a misdirection.

582. McT’s argument has anyone who is not black and points out the problems as being an unreliable witness. Any black person who complains is obviously biased. Any black person who ends up like Michael Brown, Trayon Martin, Eric Garner, etc etc is obviously asking for it. Epistemic closure, eh?
     Making this about what russell is willing to discuss is simply a misdirection.

583. First, you *know* that being black in and of itself entails being treated considerably different and not in a good way?
     Ask one of your African American law partners if he has any stories of where he felt he was treated differently solely because of his race and if it was in a good way or not?
     If I were black and everything else about me remained more or less the same. I’d be a huge beneficiary of the diversity push that’s been around since before I applied for law school.
     I don’t doubt that if you woke up tomorrow and were black, ceteris paribus, the demand for your services among law firms would likely go up, probably significantly.
     Other than that, I have my doubts you’d find much advantage to being black. But again, as your law partners for a comparison.

584. First, you *know* that being black in and of itself entails being treated considerably different and not in a good way?
     Ask one of your African American law partners if he has any stories of where he felt he was treated differently solely because of his race and if it was in a good way or not?
     If I were black and everything else about me remained more or less the same. I’d be a huge beneficiary of the diversity push that’s been around since before I applied for law school.
     I don’t doubt that if you woke up tomorrow and were black, ceteris paribus, the demand for your services among law firms would likely go up, probably significantly.
     Other than that, I have my doubts you’d find much advantage to being black. But again, as your law partners for a comparison.

585. My lost comment was in response to novakant’s and cleek’s conversation.
     Bill Clinton received an overwhelming primary vote in 1992 because the country was veering away from Reagan, but lots of people were buying “fiscal conservatism” and didn’t want a “tax and spend liberal”. I actualliy loved (and love) Jerry Brown. My state was a caucus state, and I had to work, so I donated money, but whatever.
     Clinton won (hugely), so I supported him wholeheartedly against Bush and Perot. This is a timeline of some of his accomplishments.
     In 1994, Newt Gingrich’s Congress was elected. The government was held hostage to some of their draconian anti-humanitarian measures, and Bill Clinton won those battles.
     Progressives have no memory, and Brit “leftier than thou” progressives perhaps are confused that our President isn’t Prime Minister.
     I am proud of what Bill Clinton did. As I said, I would have voted for Brown, but obviously neither he nor Tsongas made it work. Oops – have to get elected to get progressive things done through government!

586. My lost comment was in response to novakant’s and cleek’s conversation.
     Bill Clinton received an overwhelming primary vote in 1992 because the country was veering away from Reagan, but lots of people were buying “fiscal conservatism” and didn’t want a “tax and spend liberal”. I actualliy loved (and love) Jerry Brown. My state was a caucus state, and I had to work, so I donated money, but whatever.
     Clinton won (hugely), so I supported him wholeheartedly against Bush and Perot. This is a timeline of some of his accomplishments.
     In 1994, Newt Gingrich’s Congress was elected. The government was held hostage to some of their draconian anti-humanitarian measures, and Bill Clinton won those battles.
     Progressives have no memory, and Brit “leftier than thou” progressives perhaps are confused that our President isn’t Prime Minister.
     I am proud of what Bill Clinton did. As I said, I would have voted for Brown, but obviously neither he nor Tsongas made it work. Oops – have to get elected to get progressive things done through government!

587. Black people are treated differently. Even by black people.
     Latinos are treated differently, although the Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Brazilians, and Cubans are not homogeneous, nor are they treated the same, even in the places they coexist. Which isn’t really a lot of places. In some of those places they are treated just fine. Well.
     Poor white people are treated different. In many of the ways black people are, the marker being financial. Put on a really big hoodie, ripped jeans old Pumas, a two week beard and go cruise your nearest top end dept store. Security is on your ass in minutes. Don’t even think about a table at Cap Grill.
     People act different too. A decade before pot was legal anywhere you could wander through the Black neighborhoods and count the people on the street smoking a blunt. Some of them would be white, of course. The community didn’t react to that unless the drugs got harder and the hanging out got more violent.
     Even in poor white neighborhoods it was harder to find, and it just didn’t happen in middle class white neighborhoods. Not because it wasn’t smoked, but it was treated like it was illegal.
     People get treated different, they also act different. It is not one or the other.

588. Black people are treated differently. Even by black people.
     Latinos are treated differently, although the Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Brazilians, and Cubans are not homogeneous, nor are they treated the same, even in the places they coexist. Which isn’t really a lot of places. In some of those places they are treated just fine. Well.
     Poor white people are treated different. In many of the ways black people are, the marker being financial. Put on a really big hoodie, ripped jeans old Pumas, a two week beard and go cruise your nearest top end dept store. Security is on your ass in minutes. Don’t even think about a table at Cap Grill.
     People act different too. A decade before pot was legal anywhere you could wander through the Black neighborhoods and count the people on the street smoking a blunt. Some of them would be white, of course. The community didn’t react to that unless the drugs got harder and the hanging out got more violent.
     Even in poor white neighborhoods it was harder to find, and it just didn’t happen in middle class white neighborhoods. Not because it wasn’t smoked, but it was treated like it was illegal.
     People get treated different, they also act different. It is not one or the other.

589. The difference is if I cut taxes today the ultimate result isn’t tomorrow morning. If I hand out more money the impact is tomorrow, and mostly just tomorrow.
     If you are comparing a permanent tax cut to a one time spending increase…apples and orangutangs.
     If you compare a one year tax cut to a one year spending program….they are functionally the same. They are both a spending increase.
     The economic impact of these spending increases is determined largely by who gets them. Rich people tend (as a group) to believe that if we give them more money to (mostly) stuff in their mattresses that we will all be better off.
     Many disagree.
     Fancy that.

590. The difference is if I cut taxes today the ultimate result isn’t tomorrow morning. If I hand out more money the impact is tomorrow, and mostly just tomorrow.
     If you are comparing a permanent tax cut to a one time spending increase…apples and orangutangs.
     If you compare a one year tax cut to a one year spending program….they are functionally the same. They are both a spending increase.
     The economic impact of these spending increases is determined largely by who gets them. Rich people tend (as a group) to believe that if we give them more money to (mostly) stuff in their mattresses that we will all be better off.
     Many disagree.
     Fancy that.

591. Poor white people are treated different. In many of the ways black people are, the marker being financial.
     and in many of the ways, it’s quiet different.
     a lot of poor white people get told to “go the fnck back to Africa, you filthy n****r” by random strangers on the street?
     that shit adds up.
     from overt redneck racism to the kind of racism that subtly biases people’s decisions.
     somehow, you feel comfortable pretending this isn’t true.
     which is awesome for you. it’s quite a privilege.

592. Poor white people are treated different. In many of the ways black people are, the marker being financial.
     and in many of the ways, it’s quiet different.
     a lot of poor white people get told to “go the fnck back to Africa, you filthy n****r” by random strangers on the street?
     that shit adds up.
     from overt redneck racism to the kind of racism that subtly biases people’s decisions.
     somehow, you feel comfortable pretending this isn’t true.
     which is awesome for you. it’s quite a privilege.

593. I am proud of what Bill Clinton did.
     I am equivocal. How’s that for drawing lines?
     He could have vetoed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. Sure, Congress (Rep. majority and a bunch of craven Dems) would have most likely overridden it. But his term(s) were nearing their end. There were no more political mountains that he was going to climb.
     He could have also vetoed the GOP welfare “reform”. He’d done so twice. But politics. Even so, he did not have to tout it the way he did.
     He should have kept his hands off Lewinsky.

594. I am proud of what Bill Clinton did.
     I am equivocal. How’s that for drawing lines?
     He could have vetoed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. Sure, Congress (Rep. majority and a bunch of craven Dems) would have most likely overridden it. But his term(s) were nearing their end. There were no more political mountains that he was going to climb.
     He could have also vetoed the GOP welfare “reform”. He’d done so twice. But politics. Even so, he did not have to tout it the way he did.
     He should have kept his hands off Lewinsky.

595. Spot on Marty, there are *numerous* factors.
     When you roll up your “Amerika D&D 2017” character:
     You get a “plus” for being white
     You get a “plus” for being male
     You get a “plus” for being ‘mature’
     You get a “plus” for being reasonably well off financially.
     You get a “plus” for being straight.
     You get a “plus” for having a look and accent that is well regarded in the area you are in (NYC doesn’t play will in GA, frex)
     Some of those are BIG pluses, or a BIG minus if you go against them.
     You can acknowledge pluses and minuses, and the effects they have, or you can make excuses for them (“he was no angel!”). It all depends on what kind of person you want to be, and what kind of person you want to support in politics.
     If it was just an RPG, it would be easier. But we’re in a LARP.

596. Spot on Marty, there are *numerous* factors.
     When you roll up your “Amerika D&D 2017” character:
     You get a “plus” for being white
     You get a “plus” for being male
     You get a “plus” for being ‘mature’
     You get a “plus” for being reasonably well off financially.
     You get a “plus” for being straight.
     You get a “plus” for having a look and accent that is well regarded in the area you are in (NYC doesn’t play will in GA, frex)
     Some of those are BIG pluses, or a BIG minus if you go against them.
     You can acknowledge pluses and minuses, and the effects they have, or you can make excuses for them (“he was no angel!”). It all depends on what kind of person you want to be, and what kind of person you want to support in politics.
     If it was just an RPG, it would be easier. But we’re in a LARP.

597. I am equivocal. How’s that for drawing lines?
     He should have kept his hands off Lewinsky.
     Wouldn’t it be nice if we had perfect people? I’m all for perfect. Haven’t seen much of it. Obama’s been pretty close, but here we have mcmanus hating on him daily (not to mention the fascists).

598. I am equivocal. How’s that for drawing lines?
     He should have kept his hands off Lewinsky.
     Wouldn’t it be nice if we had perfect people? I’m all for perfect. Haven’t seen much of it. Obama’s been pretty close, but here we have mcmanus hating on him daily (not to mention the fascists).

599. Black people are treated differently. Even by black people.
     Well, duh.
     The question for the peanut gallery is, “What are the effects and consequences of this ‘different’ treatment?”

600. Black people are treated differently. Even by black people.
     Well, duh.
     The question for the peanut gallery is, “What are the effects and consequences of this ‘different’ treatment?”

601. i wish Clinton hadn’t signed the DMCA. and the Clipper chip thing was dumb.

602. i wish Clinton hadn’t signed the DMCA. and the Clipper chip thing was dumb.

603. i wish Clinton hadn’t signed the DMCA. and the Clipper chip thing was dumb.
     Again, not perfect. Perfect didn’t win elections. Came close.

604. i wish Clinton hadn’t signed the DMCA. and the Clipper chip thing was dumb.
     Again, not perfect. Perfect didn’t win elections. Came close.

605. no, not perfect. but the constituency for the DMCA was limited to the companies whose lawyers wrote the bill (literally).
     when that happened, i didn’t know anything about politics. but i knew computers. and the DMCA was terrible. and i knew the Clipper chip was just seriously silly.
     that was pure corporate influence.
     oh well. not perfect.

606. no, not perfect. but the constituency for the DMCA was limited to the companies whose lawyers wrote the bill (literally).
     when that happened, i didn’t know anything about politics. but i knew computers. and the DMCA was terrible. and i knew the Clipper chip was just seriously silly.
     that was pure corporate influence.
     oh well. not perfect.

607. There was the “Clipper chip”, it was dumb.
     Then there was “key escrow”, which was SERIOUSLY stupid. I chalk it up to deep paranoia in the FBI + major technical ignorance in politicians.
     Somehow they didn’t like it when I sent in ALL of my encryption keys:
     for (j=0; j <= 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF; j++) { printf("suck from the firehose, FBI! key=0x%032x\n"); } Sucks for them that they only had 10GB disk drives back then.

608. There was the “Clipper chip”, it was dumb.
     Then there was “key escrow”, which was SERIOUSLY stupid. I chalk it up to deep paranoia in the FBI + major technical ignorance in politicians.
     Somehow they didn’t like it when I sent in ALL of my encryption keys:
     for (j=0; j <= 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF; j++) { printf("suck from the firehose, FBI! key=0x%032x\n"); } Sucks for them that they only had 10GB disk drives back then.

609. also, yeah, Clipper wasn’t corporate. that was clearly spook influence.
     referent trouble.

610. also, yeah, Clipper wasn’t corporate. that was clearly spook influence.
     referent trouble.

611. Give legislators a break though. Most people (other than media and IT people) knew anything about the Internet in the 1990’s other than they wanted to send emails.
     I worked for Lexis at the time, and they certainly knew something about online information, certainly enough to protect their interests. But they knew nothing about the Internet at first. People were really afraid that copyright would disappear, and that there would be no way to protect their work. It’s kind of surprising, actually, that people are able to do it.
     I’m not defending corporations, but I attended a lot of legal seminars about digital copyright, internet security and other issues that people were freaking out about. Nobody had answers. Everyone was paranoid. If you ever receive an email from a lawyer at a lawfirm, there’s a disclaimer. People don’t understand “digital”. People were afraid of Y2K.
     It was the ’90’s.

612. Give legislators a break though. Most people (other than media and IT people) knew anything about the Internet in the 1990’s other than they wanted to send emails.
     I worked for Lexis at the time, and they certainly knew something about online information, certainly enough to protect their interests. But they knew nothing about the Internet at first. People were really afraid that copyright would disappear, and that there would be no way to protect their work. It’s kind of surprising, actually, that people are able to do it.
     I’m not defending corporations, but I attended a lot of legal seminars about digital copyright, internet security and other issues that people were freaking out about. Nobody had answers. Everyone was paranoid. If you ever receive an email from a lawyer at a lawfirm, there’s a disclaimer. People don’t understand “digital”. People were afraid of Y2K.
     It was the ’90’s.

613. Oh, also, Russia hacking actually worked. People don’t know what to do with digital technology. We were screwed by it.
     Just saying. Not perfect.

614. Oh, also, Russia hacking actually worked. People don’t know what to do with digital technology. We were screwed by it.
     Just saying. Not perfect.

615. Give legislators a break though. Most people (other than media and IT people) knew anything about the Internet in the 1990’s other than they wanted to send emails.
     i really can’t excuse it. my feeling is simple: if you don’t understand what the bill is about, you shouldn’t vote for it. yes, most technical things are going to be alien to career politicians, but their job to do what’s best for the people. learn the stuff, or demand more time to talk about it with citizens, or just abstain. letting industry lawyers write a huge, sweeping, intrusive law that gets passed with a voice vote is not what people want from their representative.
     i know it probably happens all the time. but it’s crappy. and it’s a big part of how the very rich stay very rich.
     I worked for Lexis at the time
     heh. i worked for them in the mid 2000s, putting legal doc templates on-line.

616. Give legislators a break though. Most people (other than media and IT people) knew anything about the Internet in the 1990’s other than they wanted to send emails.
     i really can’t excuse it. my feeling is simple: if you don’t understand what the bill is about, you shouldn’t vote for it. yes, most technical things are going to be alien to career politicians, but their job to do what’s best for the people. learn the stuff, or demand more time to talk about it with citizens, or just abstain. letting industry lawyers write a huge, sweeping, intrusive law that gets passed with a voice vote is not what people want from their representative.
     i know it probably happens all the time. but it’s crappy. and it’s a big part of how the very rich stay very rich.
     I worked for Lexis at the time
     heh. i worked for them in the mid 2000s, putting legal doc templates on-line.

617. You’re right, of course.
     Funny that you worked for Lexis – they had a lot more people in their employ when I was there in the ’90’s. Did you work remotely, or did you live in Dayton? I was (am still) in C’ville, VA, where the old law book publisher, Michie, was based. Lexis is still here, but a trace of what it was.

618. You’re right, of course.
     Funny that you worked for Lexis – they had a lot more people in their employ when I was there in the ’90’s. Did you work remotely, or did you live in Dayton? I was (am still) in C’ville, VA, where the old law book publisher, Michie, was based. Lexis is still here, but a trace of what it was.

619. they bought a company in NC (Time Matters) that did something like ‘Office for lawyers’. i joined right when they were merging.
     after a few years, they laid me off, along with a bunch of other people, and i had the pleasure of training my Indian (from India, not H1Bs) replacements on the stuff i wrote! but, they gave me essentially 6 months of pay to leave. so that was a fantastic summer for me.

620. they bought a company in NC (Time Matters) that did something like ‘Office for lawyers’. i joined right when they were merging.
     after a few years, they laid me off, along with a bunch of other people, and i had the pleasure of training my Indian (from India, not H1Bs) replacements on the stuff i wrote! but, they gave me essentially 6 months of pay to leave. so that was a fantastic summer for me.

621. training my Indian (from India, not H1Bs) replacements
     That’s what they do! Were you in India? If so, and if you knew anyone there from C’ville, you might know a good friend of mine. Which would be really funny, because this friend and I have had some other really wacky, coincidental mutual acquaintances.
     I wish I’d stuck around for an India gig! I really want to go there.

622. training my Indian (from India, not H1Bs) replacements
     That’s what they do! Were you in India? If so, and if you knew anyone there from C’ville, you might know a good friend of mine. Which would be really funny, because this friend and I have had some other really wacky, coincidental mutual acquaintances.
     I wish I’d stuck around for an India gig! I really want to go there.

623. Perfect didn’t win elections.
     He was already elected.
     You’re right, of course.
     Fowl. You never tell me that!
     But OK. How ’bout that terrific Trump tax “plan”?
     HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

624. Perfect didn’t win elections.
     He was already elected.
     You’re right, of course.
     Fowl. You never tell me that!
     But OK. How ’bout that terrific Trump tax “plan”?
     HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

625. You never tell me that!
     You make it clear you already know, bobbyp!
     We could do a lot worse than Bill Clinton, we’ve discovered.

626. You never tell me that!
     You make it clear you already know, bobbyp!
     We could do a lot worse than Bill Clinton, we’ve discovered.

627. First, you *know* that being black in and of itself entails being treated considerably different and not in a good way? You know this how?
     because I have eyes in my head.
     Second, you are saying that if I don’t accept your take on things, there is just no point in further discussion?
     most likely not. not with me, anyway. lots of other folks here to talk to, though. carry on if you so desire.
     Does this mean that your position is so clearly correct that there cannot be evidence to the contrary?
     it means life is too f’ing short to keep revisiting this same bullshit over and over again.
     if you want to make a case that black people in this country are not, in fact, treated differently because they’re black, have at it. I will not stand in your way. I’m sure it will good for at least 150 comments.
     if you expect me to engage that argument, you are likely to be disappointed.
     you live in houston. i’ve lived in ny, philly, and boston, and I’ve spent time a number of other places. maybe it’s all sweetness and light where you live, in which case, well done and good on ya.
     it ain’t that way in my world, and it ain’t that way in any world I’m aware of.
     maybe I should just move to houston. probably too hot for my taste, though.
     next topic please.
     and marty, yeah, poor white people take a great big ration of shit, too. you won’t catch me saying otherwise.

628. First, you *know* that being black in and of itself entails being treated considerably different and not in a good way? You know this how?
     because I have eyes in my head.
     Second, you are saying that if I don’t accept your take on things, there is just no point in further discussion?
     most likely not. not with me, anyway. lots of other folks here to talk to, though. carry on if you so desire.
     Does this mean that your position is so clearly correct that there cannot be evidence to the contrary?
     it means life is too f’ing short to keep revisiting this same bullshit over and over again.
     if you want to make a case that black people in this country are not, in fact, treated differently because they’re black, have at it. I will not stand in your way. I’m sure it will good for at least 150 comments.
     if you expect me to engage that argument, you are likely to be disappointed.
     you live in houston. i’ve lived in ny, philly, and boston, and I’ve spent time a number of other places. maybe it’s all sweetness and light where you live, in which case, well done and good on ya.
     it ain’t that way in my world, and it ain’t that way in any world I’m aware of.
     maybe I should just move to houston. probably too hot for my taste, though.
     next topic please.
     and marty, yeah, poor white people take a great big ration of shit, too. you won’t catch me saying otherwise.

629. Were you in India?
     nah. they came to Raleigh just to sit in a conference room with me! and then they went back to India and i worked on my tan.

630. Were you in India?
     nah. they came to Raleigh just to sit in a conference room with me! and then they went back to India and i worked on my tan.

631. they came to Raleigh just to sit in a conference room with me!
     I know globalization is bad, and your having been laid off is bad, but the thought of that conference room vibe makes me totally happy!

632. they came to Raleigh just to sit in a conference room with me!
     I know globalization is bad, and your having been laid off is bad, but the thought of that conference room vibe makes me totally happy!

633. Even in poor white neighborhoods it was harder to find, and it just didn’t happen in middle class white neighborhoods.
     I’m sorry, but this one made me laugh.
     maybe I just hang with the wrong crowd, but probably half the adults I know get high, many quite regularly. among folks who don’t have either a straight 9-5 gig or small kids, it’s the majority.
     been that way for decades.
     I’m a white middle class guy, grew up in a white middle class world, and live in one now. if I wanted to get my hands in some weed, it would take a phone call and about ten minutes, and I would not have to go anywhere but my nuce white neighborhood to cop.
     not my thing, it puts me too much in my own head.
     but casual smoking of weed, in either public or ptivate, is just not an uncommon white middle class thing.
     my freaking old man used to like to get high, for gods sake.
     nice try, though.

634. Even in poor white neighborhoods it was harder to find, and it just didn’t happen in middle class white neighborhoods.
     I’m sorry, but this one made me laugh.
     maybe I just hang with the wrong crowd, but probably half the adults I know get high, many quite regularly. among folks who don’t have either a straight 9-5 gig or small kids, it’s the majority.
     been that way for decades.
     I’m a white middle class guy, grew up in a white middle class world, and live in one now. if I wanted to get my hands in some weed, it would take a phone call and about ten minutes, and I would not have to go anywhere but my nuce white neighborhood to cop.
     not my thing, it puts me too much in my own head.
     but casual smoking of weed, in either public or ptivate, is just not an uncommon white middle class thing.
     my freaking old man used to like to get high, for gods sake.
     nice try, though.

635. I know globalization is bad, and your having been laid off is bad, but the thought of that conference room vibe makes me totally happy!
     i have no hard feelings for anyone involved. i got a fantastic exit and they got work and it all worked out in the end.
     i’ve had the unpleasant version too. but this was good.
     my freaking old man used to like to get high, for gods sake.
     last time my dad was down visiting, we got high together. i reminded him that the last time he saw me with weed (1986), he grounded me for the whole summer.

636. I know globalization is bad, and your having been laid off is bad, but the thought of that conference room vibe makes me totally happy!
     i have no hard feelings for anyone involved. i got a fantastic exit and they got work and it all worked out in the end.
     i’ve had the unpleasant version too. but this was good.
     my freaking old man used to like to get high, for gods sake.
     last time my dad was down visiting, we got high together. i reminded him that the last time he saw me with weed (1986), he grounded me for the whole summer.

637. speaking of copyright law, we really need to cut down on the ever increasing length of it. Honestly, should be 50 years, tops. Preferably 35. As it stands, in the US most things published after IIRC 1923 are still under copyright (some may have lapsed back when you had to renew, but very hard to know which ones).
     Mainly Disney’s fault.

638. speaking of copyright law, we really need to cut down on the ever increasing length of it. Honestly, should be 50 years, tops. Preferably 35. As it stands, in the US most things published after IIRC 1923 are still under copyright (some may have lapsed back when you had to renew, but very hard to know which ones).
     Mainly Disney’s fault.

639. speaking of copyright law, we really need to cut down on the ever increasing length of it. Honestly, should be 50 years, tops. Preferably 35
     Life of the author.
     Yes, I’m with you. Absolutely. In 2019 (I think, if it’s still true) stuff from 1923 will be free. Egregious bs.

640. speaking of copyright law, we really need to cut down on the ever increasing length of it. Honestly, should be 50 years, tops. Preferably 35
     Life of the author.
     Yes, I’m with you. Absolutely. In 2019 (I think, if it’s still true) stuff from 1923 will be free. Egregious bs.

641. but casual smoking of weed, in either public or ptivate, is just not an uncommon white middle class thing.
     Yes, and the link I provided to novakant (not the best link ever) indicates that although white and black pot smoking occurs at about the same rate, black people are arrested for it more than 3 times as often as whites. So, yes, decriminalizing (and legalizing) marijuana is a step forward for a whole lot of reasons.

642. but casual smoking of weed, in either public or ptivate, is just not an uncommon white middle class thing.
     Yes, and the link I provided to novakant (not the best link ever) indicates that although white and black pot smoking occurs at about the same rate, black people are arrested for it more than 3 times as often as whites. So, yes, decriminalizing (and legalizing) marijuana is a step forward for a whole lot of reasons.

643. I’d go with life of the author or 25 years, whichever ends later. The latter for reasons involving potential support for any minor children of the author.
     If you put the copyright in the name of a business or other organization, straight 25 years. So no benefit for shell company ownership.

644. I’d go with life of the author or 25 years, whichever ends later. The latter for reasons involving potential support for any minor children of the author.
     If you put the copyright in the name of a business or other organization, straight 25 years. So no benefit for shell company ownership.

645. although white and black pot smoking occurs at about the same rate, black people are arrested for it more than 3 times as often as whites. So, yes, decriminalizing (and legalizing) marijuana is a step forward for a whole lot of reasons.
     Would it be bigoted of me to suggest that this may explain the enthusiastic opposition to legalization on the part of an Attorney General from Alabama?

646. although white and black pot smoking occurs at about the same rate, black people are arrested for it more than 3 times as often as whites. So, yes, decriminalizing (and legalizing) marijuana is a step forward for a whole lot of reasons.
     Would it be bigoted of me to suggest that this may explain the enthusiastic opposition to legalization on the part of an Attorney General from Alabama?

647. but casual smoking of weed, in either public or ptivate, is just not an uncommon white middle class thing.
     This seems to have been covered, but, still … holy effin’ sh1t! We can have an anecdota throw-down on this one, if anyone wants me to open my can of weed-soaked whoop-ass.

648. but casual smoking of weed, in either public or ptivate, is just not an uncommon white middle class thing.
     This seems to have been covered, but, still … holy effin’ sh1t! We can have an anecdota throw-down on this one, if anyone wants me to open my can of weed-soaked whoop-ass.

649. You mean middle class white people smoke lot, really? Who knew?

650. You mean middle class white people smoke lot, really? Who knew?

651. I’m not confused, thanks, it seems you are. The “who’s perfect?” / “purist!” defense is asinine.
     Are you “proud” of ‘welfare reform’?

652. I’m not confused, thanks, it seems you are. The “who’s perfect?” / “purist!” defense is asinine.
     Are you “proud” of ‘welfare reform’?

653. i’ve had the unpleasant version too.
     nothing captures the flavor of modern life quite like training your replacement, who is 5 time zones away and for whom English runs a distant third or fourth in the language derby, via screen shares and a crap phone line.
     it’s a global village!

654. i’ve had the unpleasant version too.
     nothing captures the flavor of modern life quite like training your replacement, who is 5 time zones away and for whom English runs a distant third or fourth in the language derby, via screen shares and a crap phone line.
     it’s a global village!

655. I guarantee I win that throw down. By a lot.

656. I guarantee I win that throw down. By a lot.

657. and yet i’ve never been trained by an antipodal guy who’s on his way out the door. so strange the way things work.

658. and yet i’ve never been trained by an antipodal guy who’s on his way out the door. so strange the way things work.

659. Are you “proud” of ‘welfare reform’?
     I’m proud of the fact that he saved us from Newt Gingrich / Paul Ryan economics for 20 years. And if people had voted for Al Gore, and Hillary Clinton, we would still be bringing people out of poverty, as we did under Clinton, and under Obama. We would have avoided a lot of other unpleasantness as well.
     I know that you ignore the statistics, so I won’t continue to provide links about Democratic policies and poverty rates. There was a small demographic of extreme poverty that grew under “welfare reform.” That was mitigated somewhat by food stamps and other food assistance programs and increased healthcare availability. But the poverty rate generally was diminished greatly.
     I won’t bother to provide links yet again, since convincing you of this, despite all of the evidence, is like trying to explain white privilege to Marty and McKinney.

660. Are you “proud” of ‘welfare reform’?
     I’m proud of the fact that he saved us from Newt Gingrich / Paul Ryan economics for 20 years. And if people had voted for Al Gore, and Hillary Clinton, we would still be bringing people out of poverty, as we did under Clinton, and under Obama. We would have avoided a lot of other unpleasantness as well.
     I know that you ignore the statistics, so I won’t continue to provide links about Democratic policies and poverty rates. There was a small demographic of extreme poverty that grew under “welfare reform.” That was mitigated somewhat by food stamps and other food assistance programs and increased healthcare availability. But the poverty rate generally was diminished greatly.
     I won’t bother to provide links yet again, since convincing you of this, despite all of the evidence, is like trying to explain white privilege to Marty and McKinney.

661. DisneyCo seems like it will go to any length to keep “Steamboat Willy” from entering public domain.
     My plan, which is mine, is that copyrights can be extended INDEFINITELY: the first 5 years is free, the next 5 years is $100, and after that the fee DOUBLES for each additional 5 years. Failure to renew and pay the fee puts the work into public domain.
     So The Gutenberg Project only has to check the records for the past 5 years to see if something is in the public domain, the vast majority of ephemeral publications are covered for a reasonable time, for free, and the public gets compensated for the “Disney-infinite-extension” squatting on IP.

662. DisneyCo seems like it will go to any length to keep “Steamboat Willy” from entering public domain.
     My plan, which is mine, is that copyrights can be extended INDEFINITELY: the first 5 years is free, the next 5 years is $100, and after that the fee DOUBLES for each additional 5 years. Failure to renew and pay the fee puts the work into public domain.
     So The Gutenberg Project only has to check the records for the past 5 years to see if something is in the public domain, the vast majority of ephemeral publications are covered for a reasonable time, for free, and the public gets compensated for the “Disney-infinite-extension” squatting on IP.

663. So The Gutenberg Project only has to check the records for the past 5 years to see if something is in the public domain, the vast majority of ephemeral publications are covered for a reasonable time, for free, and the public gets compensated for the “Disney-infinite-extension” squatting on IP.
     I like it!

664. So The Gutenberg Project only has to check the records for the past 5 years to see if something is in the public domain, the vast majority of ephemeral publications are covered for a reasonable time, for free, and the public gets compensated for the “Disney-infinite-extension” squatting on IP.
     I like it!

665. DisneyCo seems like it will go to any length to keep “Steamboat Willy” from entering public domain.
     The most annoying thing about Disney is that they made a great deal of their “name” re-purposing works in the public domain! But now they won’t let anyone else do the same.

666. DisneyCo seems like it will go to any length to keep “Steamboat Willy” from entering public domain.
     The most annoying thing about Disney is that they made a great deal of their “name” re-purposing works in the public domain! But now they won’t let anyone else do the same.

667. Snarki for Pres!

668. Snarki for Pres!

669. “Snarki for Pres!”
     Just wait until you hear the policy for “drone strikes on telemarketers”.

670. “Snarki for Pres!”
     Just wait until you hear the policy for “drone strikes on telemarketers”.

671. Snarki for Emperor!

672. Snarki for Emperor!

673. I’m tempted to spark another 400 comment subthread on the impact of IP protection on artist’s livelihoods.
     then again, I’m not.
     suffice it to say that while Disney are greedy rapacious corporatist gnomes, and more than a few tech companies have found a niche as patent rentiers, there is a sizeable mom and pop level creative industry for whom IP equals food.
     just saying.
     carry on!

674. I’m tempted to spark another 400 comment subthread on the impact of IP protection on artist’s livelihoods.
     then again, I’m not.
     suffice it to say that while Disney are greedy rapacious corporatist gnomes, and more than a few tech companies have found a niche as patent rentiers, there is a sizeable mom and pop level creative industry for whom IP equals food.
     just saying.
     carry on!

675. I’d rather rehash guns and abortion.

676. I’d rather rehash guns and abortion.

677. In today’s good news, it appears that either
     1) yesterday’s story that Trump had signed a formal notification that we would be withdrawing from NAFTA was false, or
     2) it was true, but instant and intense lobbying from business cause him to change his mind.
     Hard to tell which, since the White House saying “that never happened” has zero credibility. Maybe the governments of Mexico or Canada will leak info on whether they were, in fact, sent such a notice.

678. In today’s good news, it appears that either
     1) yesterday’s story that Trump had signed a formal notification that we would be withdrawing from NAFTA was false, or
     2) it was true, but instant and intense lobbying from business cause him to change his mind.
     Hard to tell which, since the White House saying “that never happened” has zero credibility. Maybe the governments of Mexico or Canada will leak info on whether they were, in fact, sent such a notice.

679. Now that we know how we got here, could somebody tell me where we are? Thanks.

680. Now that we know how we got here, could somebody tell me where we are? Thanks.

681. we’re on a road to nowhere.

682. we’re on a road to nowhere.

683. and what are we doing in this handbasket?

684. and what are we doing in this handbasket?

685. I’d think 50 years of IP protection would be good enough. Plus then there would be some still popular 50 year old music that the creative class could riff off of w/o worrying about infringement.
     Top songs from 1967:
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_Year-End_Hot_100_singles_of_1967

686. I’d think 50 years of IP protection would be good enough. Plus then there would be some still popular 50 year old music that the creative class could riff off of w/o worrying about infringement.
     Top songs from 1967:
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_Year-End_Hot_100_singles_of_1967

687. There’s somethin’ happenin’ here. What it is ain’t exactly clear.

688. There’s somethin’ happenin’ here. What it is ain’t exactly clear.

689. What a field day for the heat, a thousand children in the street, singing songs and carrying signs, mostly say hooray for our side

690. What a field day for the heat, a thousand children in the street, singing songs and carrying signs, mostly say hooray for our side

691. nobody’s right, if everybody’s wrong

692. nobody’s right, if everybody’s wrong

693. Stop children, what’s that sound, everybody look what’s goin’ down:
     yet another attempt to repeal/gut the ACA!

694. Stop children, what’s that sound, everybody look what’s goin’ down:
     yet another attempt to repeal/gut the ACA!

695. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/04/25/the-republican-lawmaker-who-secretly-created-reddit-s-women-hating-red-pill.html

     Last November, voters in New Hampshire’s Lakes Region re-elected to the state house of representatives a man who appears to be one of the secret architects of the internet’s misogynistic “Manosphere.”
     The homegrown son of a preacher, 31-year-old Robert Fisher is a Republican who represents New Hampshire’s Belknap County District 9. In addition to his legislative duties, Fisher owns a local computer-repair franchise, and in his spare time, seems to have created the web’s most popular online destination for pickup artistry and men’s rights activists, The Red Pill, according an investigation by the Daily Beast.
     …
     Within hours of contacting Rep. Fisher, and after delivering by email a summary of his apparent connections to The Red Pill kingpin, his two primary Reddit usernames had been wiped, and four blogs connected to him were deleted or made private. He has not returned additional requests for comment.

696. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/04/25/the-republican-lawmaker-who-secretly-created-reddit-s-women-hating-red-pill.html

     Last November, voters in New Hampshire’s Lakes Region re-elected to the state house of representatives a man who appears to be one of the secret architects of the internet’s misogynistic “Manosphere.”
     The homegrown son of a preacher, 31-year-old Robert Fisher is a Republican who represents New Hampshire’s Belknap County District 9. In addition to his legislative duties, Fisher owns a local computer-repair franchise, and in his spare time, seems to have created the web’s most popular online destination for pickup artistry and men’s rights activists, The Red Pill, according an investigation by the Daily Beast.
     …
     Within hours of contacting Rep. Fisher, and after delivering by email a summary of his apparent connections to The Red Pill kingpin, his two primary Reddit usernames had been wiped, and four blogs connected to him were deleted or made private. He has not returned additional requests for comment.

697. I’m glad I decided not to quote the opening lyrics to Incense and Peppermints.

698. I’m glad I decided not to quote the opening lyrics to Incense and Peppermints.

699. i missed the perfect tag line for that blockquote:
     “one pill makes you suck”

700. i missed the perfect tag line for that blockquote:
     “one pill makes you suck”

701. The question is how many of the lyrics from that hundred songs do you know?
     I was think8ng I might not admit to knowing some of them.

702. The question is how many of the lyrics from that hundred songs do you know?
     I was think8ng I might not admit to knowing some of them.

703. I think I will call my hash dish guns and abortion.

704. I think I will call my hash dish guns and abortion.

705. What is a hash dish? Is it what we used to call a stash box?

706. What is a hash dish? Is it what we used to call a stash box?

707. I’d rather rehash guns and abortion.
     good call.

708. I’d rather rehash guns and abortion.
     good call.

709. “What is a hash dish? Is it what we used to call a stash box?”
     I was thinking of this great chourico hash I make, but my stash box could use a name I guess.

710. “What is a hash dish? Is it what we used to call a stash box?”
     I was thinking of this great chourico hash I make, but my stash box could use a name I guess.

711. I was thinking of this great chourico hash I make
     Yum, Marty! I’m rethinking some things.

712. I was thinking of this great chourico hash I make
     Yum, Marty! I’m rethinking some things.

713. Meanwhile…

     The latest changes, hammered out by Freedom Caucus Chair Mark Meadows (R-NC), and one of the moderates’ own, Tuesday Group co-chair Tom MacArthur (R-NJ), allows states to opt out of ACA insurer mandates in a way that would essentially gut its pre-existing conditions protections, the Holy Grail of the promises many Republicans made about their replacement.

     What a bunch of black-hearted motherfuckers. Pardon my French.
     My company was just bought by an outfit in TX. I have to pick my health care plan under the new regime tomorrow, and just spent the last hour sitting with my wife, running through the docs, and figuring out which option was going to bite us in the ass least badly.
     Depending on how various things play out, I’m looking at a $1k to $5k hit. My pay isn’t changing, that’s all down to my piece of the health insurance burden. The variance is a matter of how the details on some specialist care and meds plays out, and whether my wife decides to have surgery on her elbow or not. She’s trying to figure out if it hurts badly enough to fix it or not.
     Welcome to the privileged lives of the liberal coastal elites.
     The new guys are self-insured, because cost containment. That means the folks who work for them get to pony up.
     I’ve been through this before, and have generally taken the approach of negotiating a salary increase to cover the loss. We’ll see what the new kids are willing to put on the table.
     Corporate tax cuts may well be great. I actually don’t mind if we zero them out, as long as we can make up the revenue loss. Corporate taxes are not a big slice of the revenue pie, so that’s not out of the question.
     But if you really want to get the bullshit out of the way of economic growth in this country, you’ll ignore the tax regime, you’ll ignore regulations, and you’ll focus like a fucking laser on addressing the growth of the cost of medical care, and medical insurance.
     It’s eating us alive.
     I know that Tony P will sometimes chime in at points like this and say that “It’s income to somebody!”. And it is.
     But with regard to the economy as a whole, it’s the freaking vig.
     And not for nothing Marty, but your conservative buddies are throwing you under the bus. Some people just don’t know who their friends really are.
     Wise up my friend.
     Or not.

714. Meanwhile…

     The latest changes, hammered out by Freedom Caucus Chair Mark Meadows (R-NC), and one of the moderates’ own, Tuesday Group co-chair Tom MacArthur (R-NJ), allows states to opt out of ACA insurer mandates in a way that would essentially gut its pre-existing conditions protections, the Holy Grail of the promises many Republicans made about their replacement.

     What a bunch of black-hearted motherfuckers. Pardon my French.
     My company was just bought by an outfit in TX. I have to pick my health care plan under the new regime tomorrow, and just spent the last hour sitting with my wife, running through the docs, and figuring out which option was going to bite us in the ass least badly.
     Depending on how various things play out, I’m looking at a $1k to $5k hit. My pay isn’t changing, that’s all down to my piece of the health insurance burden. The variance is a matter of how the details on some specialist care and meds plays out, and whether my wife decides to have surgery on her elbow or not. She’s trying to figure out if it hurts badly enough to fix it or not.
     Welcome to the privileged lives of the liberal coastal elites.
     The new guys are self-insured, because cost containment. That means the folks who work for them get to pony up.
     I’ve been through this before, and have generally taken the approach of negotiating a salary increase to cover the loss. We’ll see what the new kids are willing to put on the table.
     Corporate tax cuts may well be great. I actually don’t mind if we zero them out, as long as we can make up the revenue loss. Corporate taxes are not a big slice of the revenue pie, so that’s not out of the question.
     But if you really want to get the bullshit out of the way of economic growth in this country, you’ll ignore the tax regime, you’ll ignore regulations, and you’ll focus like a fucking laser on addressing the growth of the cost of medical care, and medical insurance.
     It’s eating us alive.
     I know that Tony P will sometimes chime in at points like this and say that “It’s income to somebody!”. And it is.
     But with regard to the economy as a whole, it’s the freaking vig.
     And not for nothing Marty, but your conservative buddies are throwing you under the bus. Some people just don’t know who their friends really are.
     Wise up my friend.
     Or not.

715. Here’s the thing russell, you just wrote a whole comment detailing how health care insurance and costs are not improved one bit by the ACA six years in.
     Outside MA and maybe a few other places where state laws have forced the costs onto employers what you just described is the norm. It sucks. And the ACA is still fully in place.
     Your progressive buddies haven’t fixed a thing. No thats not right, they gave some small number of people catastrophic insurance that has literally saved their life. But the ACA hasnt bent the curve on the cost of medical care, thus insurance. Just what I have said all along.
     So, the rest of us get to decide if we need surgery this year. It is likely the plan you are looking at is better than any plan in the exchanges.
     Wise up my friend.
     Or not.

716. Here’s the thing russell, you just wrote a whole comment detailing how health care insurance and costs are not improved one bit by the ACA six years in.
     Outside MA and maybe a few other places where state laws have forced the costs onto employers what you just described is the norm. It sucks. And the ACA is still fully in place.
     Your progressive buddies haven’t fixed a thing. No thats not right, they gave some small number of people catastrophic insurance that has literally saved their life. But the ACA hasnt bent the curve on the cost of medical care, thus insurance. Just what I have said all along.
     So, the rest of us get to decide if we need surgery this year. It is likely the plan you are looking at is better than any plan in the exchanges.
     Wise up my friend.
     Or not.

717. Your progressive buddies haven’t fixed a thing. No thats not right, they gave some small number of people catastrophic insurance that has literally saved their life. But the ACA hasnt bent the curve on the cost of medical care, thus insurance. Just what I have said all along.
     I forgot what Republicans are doing about that.

718. Your progressive buddies haven’t fixed a thing. No thats not right, they gave some small number of people catastrophic insurance that has literally saved their life. But the ACA hasnt bent the curve on the cost of medical care, thus insurance. Just what I have said all along.
     I forgot what Republicans are doing about that.

719. Check it out.
     You’re a geezer, just like me. You’ve mentioned that you have OCPD.
     I agree that Obamacare is a rattletrap piece of stumbling garbage, but it requires insurers to issue you a policy.
     The conservative (R)’s in the House will be very happy to take that away.
     Which means you will get bugger-all. Nobody will write you a freaking thing. At most, you’ll get catastrophic coverage, and you’ll pay through the nose for it. It’s not unlikely that you will get sick, and die. And they will not give a shit.
     Unclear to me if health care costs have been improved by the ACA or not. As I understand it, priority 1 of the ACA was to expand coverage, and it did that.
     I think it’s a horrendous Rube Goldenbergian nightmare as legislation, but it moved the ball forward one tiny inch. Which, for a lot of people, saved their freaking lives.
     As far as I can tell, the (R)’s have nothing up their sleeve to replace it. Which is why they can’t get off the dime and do something about it.
     I’m fine with the (D)’s. The (R)’s can kiss my liberal coastal elitist ass.
     Best of luck to you.

720. Check it out.
     You’re a geezer, just like me. You’ve mentioned that you have OCPD.
     I agree that Obamacare is a rattletrap piece of stumbling garbage, but it requires insurers to issue you a policy.
     The conservative (R)’s in the House will be very happy to take that away.
     Which means you will get bugger-all. Nobody will write you a freaking thing. At most, you’ll get catastrophic coverage, and you’ll pay through the nose for it. It’s not unlikely that you will get sick, and die. And they will not give a shit.
     Unclear to me if health care costs have been improved by the ACA or not. As I understand it, priority 1 of the ACA was to expand coverage, and it did that.
     I think it’s a horrendous Rube Goldenbergian nightmare as legislation, but it moved the ball forward one tiny inch. Which, for a lot of people, saved their freaking lives.
     As far as I can tell, the (R)’s have nothing up their sleeve to replace it. Which is why they can’t get off the dime and do something about it.
     I’m fine with the (D)’s. The (R)’s can kiss my liberal coastal elitist ass.
     Best of luck to you.

721. Outside MA and maybe a few other places where state laws have forced the costs onto employers what you just described is the norm.
     Haha.
     And that, my friend, is why I live in the People’s Republic. May it live long and prosper.
     Forced the costs on to them? Better on them then on me. They make enough off of my hide as it is. If it’s not worth it to them, they can cut me loose.
     If my new TX overlords can’t make it right, I may look into finding myself another gig. And, if need be, I will, and they will be denied the fruit of my labor.
     F’ em. They can pound sand, they’ve got plenty of it.
     They will be denied the fruit of my labor. They’ll live, so will I, but I think I’ll come out on top. I’ve talked with some of their engineers.
     Want good people? Don’t fuck with them. A lesson for the chiselers of the world to learn.
     Best of luck to you.

722. Outside MA and maybe a few other places where state laws have forced the costs onto employers what you just described is the norm.
     Haha.
     And that, my friend, is why I live in the People’s Republic. May it live long and prosper.
     Forced the costs on to them? Better on them then on me. They make enough off of my hide as it is. If it’s not worth it to them, they can cut me loose.
     If my new TX overlords can’t make it right, I may look into finding myself another gig. And, if need be, I will, and they will be denied the fruit of my labor.
     F’ em. They can pound sand, they’ve got plenty of it.
     They will be denied the fruit of my labor. They’ll live, so will I, but I think I’ll come out on top. I’ve talked with some of their engineers.
     Want good people? Don’t fuck with them. A lesson for the chiselers of the world to learn.
     Best of luck to you.

723. I’m willing to let Congress try to craft something now that They be started. We should all be encouraging them to send pretty much anything to the Senate and then flooding the Senate with letters telling them to actually fix it.
     It’s pretty clear they aren’t killing it without a replacement, we should be writing all those letters supporting getting something done right. To move it another inch.
     Or we can keep trading back and forth the best thing one party can pass.

724. I’m willing to let Congress try to craft something now that They be started. We should all be encouraging them to send pretty much anything to the Senate and then flooding the Senate with letters telling them to actually fix it.
     It’s pretty clear they aren’t killing it without a replacement, we should be writing all those letters supporting getting something done right. To move it another inch.
     Or we can keep trading back and forth the best thing one party can pass.

725. I’m willing to let Congress try to craft something now that They be started.
     Ummm.

726. I’m willing to let Congress try to craft something now that They be started.
     Ummm.

727. I have a good idea, Marty.
     How about you provide us with the chourico hash recipe (which I would have to meddle with since I don’t eat red meat).
     Wonderful use of your time!

728. I have a good idea, Marty.
     How about you provide us with the chourico hash recipe (which I would have to meddle with since I don’t eat red meat).
     Wonderful use of your time!

729. It’s also pretty clear that they can’t pass anything thru the House that would get to first base in the Senate.
     It would make more sense to have the Senate write a replacement (or, more likely, the kind of revision that new programs like this typically see). They, at least, seem to have an occasional interest in governing — which is more than the House displays.
     Something that could get done that way, possibly even with bipartisan support, might even make it thru House. Probably with mostly Democratic votes — but that’s assuming the Speaker will allow it to come to a vote at all. Which I, for one, wouldn’t put money on.

730. It’s also pretty clear that they can’t pass anything thru the House that would get to first base in the Senate.
     It would make more sense to have the Senate write a replacement (or, more likely, the kind of revision that new programs like this typically see). They, at least, seem to have an occasional interest in governing — which is more than the House displays.
     Something that could get done that way, possibly even with bipartisan support, might even make it thru House. Probably with mostly Democratic votes — but that’s assuming the Speaker will allow it to come to a vote at all. Which I, for one, wouldn’t put money on.

731. That’s kind of tough sapient. The great thing about chourico is that the flavor in the hash really comes from the peppers, onions and chourico. I dice the potatoes really small, I boil them pretty quickly so they dont get too soft, then add them and a little salt to the chourico just before I am ready to take it off, so they soak up the flavor and brown quickly. I add the onions and red peppers a little before the potatoes but not much because l like them to be firm, they should be diced pretty small too. I like 3/2/1 mix of chourico to potatoes to combined onions peppers.
     I made it once with chicken but the texture just doesn’t really make hash. In fact, to make it the best you really need to use the crumbled chourico, I like Michaels, because it creates the right consistency that’s hard to get if you try to crumble it yourself.
     But then, I’m no cook really. And I would love a vegetarian version as I do cook for a few. I usually end up fiddling with spices and more peppers and onions in the veggy pan for this, which I usually make for breakfast at dinner time with eggs and biscuits.

732. That’s kind of tough sapient. The great thing about chourico is that the flavor in the hash really comes from the peppers, onions and chourico. I dice the potatoes really small, I boil them pretty quickly so they dont get too soft, then add them and a little salt to the chourico just before I am ready to take it off, so they soak up the flavor and brown quickly. I add the onions and red peppers a little before the potatoes but not much because l like them to be firm, they should be diced pretty small too. I like 3/2/1 mix of chourico to potatoes to combined onions peppers.
     I made it once with chicken but the texture just doesn’t really make hash. In fact, to make it the best you really need to use the crumbled chourico, I like Michaels, because it creates the right consistency that’s hard to get if you try to crumble it yourself.
     But then, I’m no cook really. And I would love a vegetarian version as I do cook for a few. I usually end up fiddling with spices and more peppers and onions in the veggy pan for this, which I usually make for breakfast at dinner time with eggs and biscuits.

733. Interesting
     https://www.fastcompany.com/40412848/heineken-just-put-out-the-antidote-to-that-pepsi-kendall-jenner-ad

734. Interesting
     https://www.fastcompany.com/40412848/heineken-just-put-out-the-antidote-to-that-pepsi-kendall-jenner-ad

735. We should all be encouraging them to send pretty much anything to the Senate and then flooding the Senate with letters telling them to actually fix it.
     we should all be sending people to the house who aren’t inclined to write legislation that is utter shite.
     much more efficient that way.

736. We should all be encouraging them to send pretty much anything to the Senate and then flooding the Senate with letters telling them to actually fix it.
     we should all be sending people to the house who aren’t inclined to write legislation that is utter shite.
     much more efficient that way.

737. America is gerrymandered in such a way that there is no “we” any longer. There is them, henceforth known as black-hearted motherfuckers, and then there are the rest of us.
     Marty, in deregulated (meaning deregulation for corporations, not for individual citizens) South Dakota, chourico in your diet is considered an uninsurable pre-existing condition, which if insured at some reasonable cost, would queer the cost curve for the rest of us and prevent Dagny Taggart from optimizing productivity and denying Paul Ryan a colonoscopy to see what the fuck crawled up his ass while his mother was buying groceries with Social Security survivor benefits.
     Survival of the shittiest.
     https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/04/28/networks-and-the-credit-card-model-for-health-insurance/
     It could become a national trend.

738. America is gerrymandered in such a way that there is no “we” any longer. There is them, henceforth known as black-hearted motherfuckers, and then there are the rest of us.
     Marty, in deregulated (meaning deregulation for corporations, not for individual citizens) South Dakota, chourico in your diet is considered an uninsurable pre-existing condition, which if insured at some reasonable cost, would queer the cost curve for the rest of us and prevent Dagny Taggart from optimizing productivity and denying Paul Ryan a colonoscopy to see what the fuck crawled up his ass while his mother was buying groceries with Social Security survivor benefits.
     Survival of the shittiest.
     https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/04/28/networks-and-the-credit-card-model-for-health-insurance/
     It could become a national trend.

739. Aha,yes, I should have remembered: in my youth the preferred way of getting high in England/Europe was hash, and it seemed to me that in the states it was what we used to call grass and what you call weed. Presumably it was.because we didn’t have the climate, so pretty much everything had to be imported in any case. It all seems so long ago…

740. Aha,yes, I should have remembered: in my youth the preferred way of getting high in England/Europe was hash, and it seemed to me that in the states it was what we used to call grass and what you call weed. Presumably it was.because we didn’t have the climate, so pretty much everything had to be imported in any case. It all seems so long ago…

741. “I loved my previous life. I had so many things going,” Trump told Reuters in an interview. “This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier.”
     President Trump threatened to terminate the U.S. trade agreement with South Korea in an interview Thursday night, declaring that the five-year-old accord with a key ally was “a horrible deal” that has left America ­“destroyed.”
     Apparently, the Carl Vinson is steaming toward the Korean Peninsula to provoke North Korea to take out Seoul so trump incorporated can shake down the North Koreans.
     If trump was vomiting this at Berkeley, I would defend his right to vomit when and where he wants, as the First Amendment provides, but I would also defend the right of an audience of millions to yell STFU per the First Amendment and to carry backup provided by the Second Amendment.
     My kid heads for South Korea in June to do science … how unAmerican … right, pigfuckers? … pending the advent of nuclear confrontation.

742. “I loved my previous life. I had so many things going,” Trump told Reuters in an interview. “This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier.”
     President Trump threatened to terminate the U.S. trade agreement with South Korea in an interview Thursday night, declaring that the five-year-old accord with a key ally was “a horrible deal” that has left America ­“destroyed.”
     Apparently, the Carl Vinson is steaming toward the Korean Peninsula to provoke North Korea to take out Seoul so trump incorporated can shake down the North Koreans.
     If trump was vomiting this at Berkeley, I would defend his right to vomit when and where he wants, as the First Amendment provides, but I would also defend the right of an audience of millions to yell STFU per the First Amendment and to carry backup provided by the Second Amendment.
     My kid heads for South Korea in June to do science … how unAmerican … right, pigfuckers? … pending the advent of nuclear confrontation.

743. “This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier.”

     Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States.

744. “This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier.”

     Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States.

745. shake down the SOUTH Koreans is how that should read, but maybe he wants to unify the two, or shake down both.

746. shake down the SOUTH Koreans is how that should read, but maybe he wants to unify the two, or shake down both.

747. ” in my youth the preferred way of getting high in England/Europe was hash,”
     In my circles it was the preferred way, although more expensive and less readily available. With the loss of Mexican pot it had a sharp uptick, but was quickly supplanted by Colombian weed. In a huge boon for the economy, weed went from $10/oz to $55/oz in a single quarterly reporting period. The off shoot of that is that cocaine and, shortly after, crack gained a much larger customer base while at the low end selling singles became a more common practice in the weed trade.
     It essentially marked a significant change in the cultural aspects of pot smoking as it became expensive enough that just handing it out at concerts, parks, and various other hippy venues became less common and the communal aspects of the subculture became strained and ultimately faded away.

748. ” in my youth the preferred way of getting high in England/Europe was hash,”
     In my circles it was the preferred way, although more expensive and less readily available. With the loss of Mexican pot it had a sharp uptick, but was quickly supplanted by Colombian weed. In a huge boon for the economy, weed went from $10/oz to $55/oz in a single quarterly reporting period. The off shoot of that is that cocaine and, shortly after, crack gained a much larger customer base while at the low end selling singles became a more common practice in the weed trade.
     It essentially marked a significant change in the cultural aspects of pot smoking as it became expensive enough that just handing it out at concerts, parks, and various other hippy venues became less common and the communal aspects of the subculture became strained and ultimately faded away.

749. when i was in HS, hash was as common as weed. these days, i never see it. not that i’m deep in the culture, but let’s just say i know some people.
     part of that is probably because there are better ways to deliver the active ingredients: edibles, vaporizer oils, etc.. the legal-ish weed industry has come up with some crazy stuff recently. no need to go through the hassle of making a different smokeable form if they can make gummy bears and lollipops.

750. when i was in HS, hash was as common as weed. these days, i never see it. not that i’m deep in the culture, but let’s just say i know some people.
     part of that is probably because there are better ways to deliver the active ingredients: edibles, vaporizer oils, etc.. the legal-ish weed industry has come up with some crazy stuff recently. no need to go through the hassle of making a different smokeable form if they can make gummy bears and lollipops.

751. “In a huge boon for the economy, weed went from $10/oz to $55/oz in a single quarterly reporting period.”
     I don’t recall these reporting periods you speak of.
     In my circles, more oblong than perfectly round, anyone who reported anything was put on report and required to divulge what condition their condition was in to a tribunal of their peers, who were usually indisposed on account of the conditions THEIR conditions were in.
     The detail in your familiarity with this stuff is alarming.
     Monetizing stuff ruins everything.

752. “In a huge boon for the economy, weed went from $10/oz to $55/oz in a single quarterly reporting period.”
     I don’t recall these reporting periods you speak of.
     In my circles, more oblong than perfectly round, anyone who reported anything was put on report and required to divulge what condition their condition was in to a tribunal of their peers, who were usually indisposed on account of the conditions THEIR conditions were in.
     The detail in your familiarity with this stuff is alarming.
     Monetizing stuff ruins everything.

753. …the communal aspects of the subculture became strained and ultimately faded away.
     I’m post-hippie, so it was often (but not always) more of an in-crowd/secret-society sort of thing. If you were at a party, there was some nudging, nodding, whispering, and winking, followed by just a few sneaking off to a secluded room or outdoor area. (And after that, things would be very silly.)

754. …the communal aspects of the subculture became strained and ultimately faded away.
     I’m post-hippie, so it was often (but not always) more of an in-crowd/secret-society sort of thing. If you were at a party, there was some nudging, nodding, whispering, and winking, followed by just a few sneaking off to a secluded room or outdoor area. (And after that, things would be very silly.)

755. “shake down the SOUTH Koreans is how that should read”
     Same reason as given by Willie Sutton for why he robbed banks: “that’s where the money is”.

756. “shake down the SOUTH Koreans is how that should read”
     Same reason as given by Willie Sutton for why he robbed banks: “that’s where the money is”.

757. “the communal aspects of the subculture became strained and ultimately faded away.”
     Same with hitchhiking.
     One summer it was dozens of us on the entrance ramps, girls and boys across the land, and the next it was law enforcement and creeps …. the latter usually overweight, half-zipped guys with pocket knives and suspicious-looking keys hanging from their belts who would pick you up and leer at the women and comment on the brutal forced haircuts the locals were said to be subjecting male hitchhikers to … doing their thing to ruin a good thing.
     Got picked up by Mister Rogers, yeah the real-life sweatered, can-you-spell-where-you-headed Fred Rogers in Pittsburgh near my home once and by none other than Chubby Checker on the way to Philly in a caravan of panel vans full of band equipment.
     There couldn’t have been more smoke in the cab if Cheech and Chong had been driving.

758. “the communal aspects of the subculture became strained and ultimately faded away.”
     Same with hitchhiking.
     One summer it was dozens of us on the entrance ramps, girls and boys across the land, and the next it was law enforcement and creeps …. the latter usually overweight, half-zipped guys with pocket knives and suspicious-looking keys hanging from their belts who would pick you up and leer at the women and comment on the brutal forced haircuts the locals were said to be subjecting male hitchhikers to … doing their thing to ruin a good thing.
     Got picked up by Mister Rogers, yeah the real-life sweatered, can-you-spell-where-you-headed Fred Rogers in Pittsburgh near my home once and by none other than Chubby Checker on the way to Philly in a caravan of panel vans full of band equipment.
     There couldn’t have been more smoke in the cab if Cheech and Chong had been driving.

759. My dad was a cop. When I was a kid, he would pick up hitchhikers he recognized from having arrested them. When they saw who he was, they would smile and address him by his first name. Quite a cat, my dad.

760. My dad was a cop. When I was a kid, he would pick up hitchhikers he recognized from having arrested them. When they saw who he was, they would smile and address him by his first name. Quite a cat, my dad.

761. Marty, your cost analysis reminds me of the good old days of High Times, the magazine. I had a friend who was extremely straight and respectable, and employed at our equivalent of the Dept of Justice, and at a meeting discussing which publications prisoners were allowed to subscribe to, one of her bosses said in outrage “Do you know there is actually a magazine which quotes comparative prices of illegal drugs?!” to which my (straight but extremely broad-minded) friend, who had been around our place a lot, said nonchalantly “Oh, you mean the Trans-High Market Quotations in High Times”. I believe there was a stunned silence, but it didn’t do her stellar career any harm in the long term.

762. Marty, your cost analysis reminds me of the good old days of High Times, the magazine. I had a friend who was extremely straight and respectable, and employed at our equivalent of the Dept of Justice, and at a meeting discussing which publications prisoners were allowed to subscribe to, one of her bosses said in outrage “Do you know there is actually a magazine which quotes comparative prices of illegal drugs?!” to which my (straight but extremely broad-minded) friend, who had been around our place a lot, said nonchalantly “Oh, you mean the Trans-High Market Quotations in High Times”. I believe there was a stunned silence, but it didn’t do her stellar career any harm in the long term.

763. hsh, your dad sounds great.

764. hsh, your dad sounds great.

765. “The detail in your familiarity with this stuff is alarming”
     I knew a guy who knew a guy.

766. “The detail in your familiarity with this stuff is alarming”
     I knew a guy who knew a guy.

767. A friend and I stood for six hours in a driving sideways snow storm at night in the middle of nowhere on I-80 in northern Pennsylvania, heading for Cape Cod.
     Very little traffic, but across the highway there stood the only sign of life, a roadhouse and parked outside were two cars, one a pink late 1950s classic T-Bird.
     After wondering for six hours when one of those cars was going to head out our way, here comes the T-Bird weaving down the entrance ramp toward us, sliding and swerving to a stop nearly hitting us. I opened the passenger door, stuck my head inside the fully pink interior and was face-to-face with a middle-aged (it seemed then) platinum blonde woman dressed (half) fully in pink who had lost the ability to speak probably on account of six hours throwing back some uncountable number of George Dickels, but who asked goofily “An’ justh thwhere do you boithes thrink your going?”
     One false eyelash drooped askew down her well-powdered cheekbone.
     I mumbled no thanks and shut the door, waving forlornly, unaccountably placing safety above warmth and untold adult adventures, and told my buddy she wasn’t fit to drive (I should have offered to drive) and sure enough the very next ride came along and we grabbed it.
     We were caked in snow from head to foot like Robert Redford in Jeremiah Johnson.
     Not a mile down the highway, two highway patrol cars (where they came from, no one knows) had pulled the T-Bird over, so my instincts paid off for once.

768. A friend and I stood for six hours in a driving sideways snow storm at night in the middle of nowhere on I-80 in northern Pennsylvania, heading for Cape Cod.
     Very little traffic, but across the highway there stood the only sign of life, a roadhouse and parked outside were two cars, one a pink late 1950s classic T-Bird.
     After wondering for six hours when one of those cars was going to head out our way, here comes the T-Bird weaving down the entrance ramp toward us, sliding and swerving to a stop nearly hitting us. I opened the passenger door, stuck my head inside the fully pink interior and was face-to-face with a middle-aged (it seemed then) platinum blonde woman dressed (half) fully in pink who had lost the ability to speak probably on account of six hours throwing back some uncountable number of George Dickels, but who asked goofily “An’ justh thwhere do you boithes thrink your going?”
     One false eyelash drooped askew down her well-powdered cheekbone.
     I mumbled no thanks and shut the door, waving forlornly, unaccountably placing safety above warmth and untold adult adventures, and told my buddy she wasn’t fit to drive (I should have offered to drive) and sure enough the very next ride came along and we grabbed it.
     We were caked in snow from head to foot like Robert Redford in Jeremiah Johnson.
     Not a mile down the highway, two highway patrol cars (where they came from, no one knows) had pulled the T-Bird over, so my instincts paid off for once.

769. I got picked up hitchhiking from Harvard Square toward MIT when I was an undergrad at the latter, but had dropped out for a term. The guy who picked me up was the then-president of MIT. I didn’t let on that I knew who he was; he gave me a friendly lecture about the dangers of hitchhiking.
     On my first trip to Ireland in 1979 I hitched all over the country, alone. People took me out of their way, gave me meals, just generally saw that I was safe, well fed, and delivered to where I was going. My Irish friends, one of whom worked in some relevant government department, assured me that it would be fine to hitch, and they were right.
     When I went back twelve years later everyone said: don’t do it, it’s not safe anymore, because drugs had come into the country in a big way in the intervening years.
     Sad. (Not said ironically. They didn’t mean marijuana.)

770. I got picked up hitchhiking from Harvard Square toward MIT when I was an undergrad at the latter, but had dropped out for a term. The guy who picked me up was the then-president of MIT. I didn’t let on that I knew who he was; he gave me a friendly lecture about the dangers of hitchhiking.
     On my first trip to Ireland in 1979 I hitched all over the country, alone. People took me out of their way, gave me meals, just generally saw that I was safe, well fed, and delivered to where I was going. My Irish friends, one of whom worked in some relevant government department, assured me that it would be fine to hitch, and they were right.
     When I went back twelve years later everyone said: don’t do it, it’s not safe anymore, because drugs had come into the country in a big way in the intervening years.
     Sad. (Not said ironically. They didn’t mean marijuana.)

771. I was driving from Philly to Dallas in 1973 when I picked up a hitchhiker somewhere in Tennessee. Nice guy, we chatted, it was three in the morning. I decided to get gas but as I took the exit I fell asleep and ran up on the curb hard enough to flatten both drivers side tires.
     After appropriately preparing the car for a possible search, I jacked the car up and the hitchhiker took it over to the gas station where they hammered out the wheel and aired it back up. I put it back on and he took the other one.
     Once mobile again we got gas and went to the Waffle House for breakfast where he insusted on paying.
     We got back in the car, hours now after the accident, and I figured I had company for a while. 3 miles down the road he said hey this is my exit, a half mile later he was home.
     He could have walked home 5 times in the time he spent helping me. I still think of him as the nicest guy I ever met.

772. I was driving from Philly to Dallas in 1973 when I picked up a hitchhiker somewhere in Tennessee. Nice guy, we chatted, it was three in the morning. I decided to get gas but as I took the exit I fell asleep and ran up on the curb hard enough to flatten both drivers side tires.
     After appropriately preparing the car for a possible search, I jacked the car up and the hitchhiker took it over to the gas station where they hammered out the wheel and aired it back up. I put it back on and he took the other one.
     Once mobile again we got gas and went to the Waffle House for breakfast where he insusted on paying.
     We got back in the car, hours now after the accident, and I figured I had company for a while. 3 miles down the road he said hey this is my exit, a half mile later he was home.
     He could have walked home 5 times in the time he spent helping me. I still think of him as the nicest guy I ever met.

773. if you want to make a case that black people in this country are not, in fact, treated differently because they’re black, have at it. I will not stand in your way. I’m sure it will good for at least 150 comments.
     That’s why I ended up moving on. I still check in some days, and get tempted to respond to something- then I think to myself: where will this end up? Will anything be changed in anyone’s mind?
     after all it’s not easy banging your heart against some mad bugger’s cognitive dissonance.

774. if you want to make a case that black people in this country are not, in fact, treated differently because they’re black, have at it. I will not stand in your way. I’m sure it will good for at least 150 comments.
     That’s why I ended up moving on. I still check in some days, and get tempted to respond to something- then I think to myself: where will this end up? Will anything be changed in anyone’s mind?
     after all it’s not easy banging your heart against some mad bugger’s cognitive dissonance.

775. I only hitched in England, and never alone, always with a girlfriend (a few hairy experiences, but we got out ok). On the other hand, a few years later when I had my own car, I was once driving in the countryside on my way to London when I passed two male football fans (ostentatious red and white scarves etc) who I saw were Man U supporters, hopelessly trying to hitch a ride in the middle of nowhere. It was at a time when there was a ton of stuff in the news about (serious) football hooliganism, but I felt sorry for them and I was pretty fearless in those days, so I stopped. They were astounded when a young woman alone stopped to pick them up, specially one with (important in the UK) a rather posh accent. I asked them if they were hooligans, and they said that they were. We talked non-stop while I drove them (out of my way) to the stadium they were trying to get to. The only thing that sticks in my memory is that when I asked them why they did it (the violent hooliganism) they said “Because it’s fun”. I asked about girlfriends – they admitted it was a problem, mainly because of all the away games. It was a most excellent and interesting encounter, for all of us.

776. I only hitched in England, and never alone, always with a girlfriend (a few hairy experiences, but we got out ok). On the other hand, a few years later when I had my own car, I was once driving in the countryside on my way to London when I passed two male football fans (ostentatious red and white scarves etc) who I saw were Man U supporters, hopelessly trying to hitch a ride in the middle of nowhere. It was at a time when there was a ton of stuff in the news about (serious) football hooliganism, but I felt sorry for them and I was pretty fearless in those days, so I stopped. They were astounded when a young woman alone stopped to pick them up, specially one with (important in the UK) a rather posh accent. I asked them if they were hooligans, and they said that they were. We talked non-stop while I drove them (out of my way) to the stadium they were trying to get to. The only thing that sticks in my memory is that when I asked them why they did it (the violent hooliganism) they said “Because it’s fun”. I asked about girlfriends – they admitted it was a problem, mainly because of all the away games. It was a most excellent and interesting encounter, for all of us.

777. Re: Carleton Wu | April 28, 2017 at 11:56 AM
     When I read the quoted text, I was expecting to read something about hitchhiking while black below it. That would be quite the case study, no?

778. Re: Carleton Wu | April 28, 2017 at 11:56 AM
     When I read the quoted text, I was expecting to read something about hitchhiking while black below it. That would be quite the case study, no?

779. Wisconsin, summer of 1971, on the way to California, and I made it.
     Got picked up by a guy around my age at the time who gripped the steering wheel with both hands and sang “Oh, What A Wonderful Feeling, Oh What a Wonderful Day” in a beautiful tenor voice and then looked over at me in the passenger seat to see if I agreed and I’d give him the thumbs up, not wanting to darken the mood.
     He possessed a pair of South Pacific blue lagoon eyes that were too startling to look at for any length of time.
     By way of conversation, he mentioned his family owned a small farm way off the highway with a small herd of dairy cows and tell you what, it’s hay baling time and why don’t I come up and help out.
     Sure. This was exactly the kind of experience, notwithstanding platinum-coiffed broads in come hither pink T-Birds, I was looking for.
     So bale hay and milk cows was what I did shirtless for two weeks, twelve hours a day.
     It was great.
     The family was obviously very poor, the Dad was taciturn, the mother was referred to in hushed tones as she had moved out to the big city, and the sisters were cute.
     The meals were delicious. They were nice people.
     This kid would stand on the hay wagon flatbed, feet apart, put his fists on his hips like Howard Keel or Yul Brynner in The King and I, stretch out his neck like a rooster, and belt out Christian hymns at the top of his lungs.
     It was so corny and wholesome I thought I was in a Mickey Rooney movie.
     So, one of my chores was heading out to the back forty on foot in the late afternoon to rustle the dairy cows back to the barn for milking.
     The first time I went out an hour or so went by with no sign of me or the cows. Turns out as soon as the cows saw me coming, they would retreat into a boggy area among the trees and grow sullen and immovable. The kid came out to find me and there I stood waving a stick around and reasoning stupidly with the cows.
     So we got the cows back to the barn, and the kid comes up to me real close like Elmer Gantry, his startling blue eyes gazing deeply into mine (I’m thinking, OK, this can only be one of two things) and he finally asks with evangelical conviction, “Countme, are you ready to hand your life over to Our Savior?”
     I forget my bumbling response, but was relieved his question wasn’t about the other thing.
     I hope that family has experienced health and good fortune during the intervening light years.

780. Wisconsin, summer of 1971, on the way to California, and I made it.
     Got picked up by a guy around my age at the time who gripped the steering wheel with both hands and sang “Oh, What A Wonderful Feeling, Oh What a Wonderful Day” in a beautiful tenor voice and then looked over at me in the passenger seat to see if I agreed and I’d give him the thumbs up, not wanting to darken the mood.
     He possessed a pair of South Pacific blue lagoon eyes that were too startling to look at for any length of time.
     By way of conversation, he mentioned his family owned a small farm way off the highway with a small herd of dairy cows and tell you what, it’s hay baling time and why don’t I come up and help out.
     Sure. This was exactly the kind of experience, notwithstanding platinum-coiffed broads in come hither pink T-Birds, I was looking for.
     So bale hay and milk cows was what I did shirtless for two weeks, twelve hours a day.
     It was great.
     The family was obviously very poor, the Dad was taciturn, the mother was referred to in hushed tones as she had moved out to the big city, and the sisters were cute.
     The meals were delicious. They were nice people.
     This kid would stand on the hay wagon flatbed, feet apart, put his fists on his hips like Howard Keel or Yul Brynner in The King and I, stretch out his neck like a rooster, and belt out Christian hymns at the top of his lungs.
     It was so corny and wholesome I thought I was in a Mickey Rooney movie.
     So, one of my chores was heading out to the back forty on foot in the late afternoon to rustle the dairy cows back to the barn for milking.
     The first time I went out an hour or so went by with no sign of me or the cows. Turns out as soon as the cows saw me coming, they would retreat into a boggy area among the trees and grow sullen and immovable. The kid came out to find me and there I stood waving a stick around and reasoning stupidly with the cows.
     So we got the cows back to the barn, and the kid comes up to me real close like Elmer Gantry, his startling blue eyes gazing deeply into mine (I’m thinking, OK, this can only be one of two things) and he finally asks with evangelical conviction, “Countme, are you ready to hand your life over to Our Savior?”
     I forget my bumbling response, but was relieved his question wasn’t about the other thing.
     I hope that family has experienced health and good fortune during the intervening light years.

781. Regarding MCTX’s comment, I suspect he would have been subject to more random traffic stops over the years on the way to his affirmative action-related boot-strapping.

782. Regarding MCTX’s comment, I suspect he would have been subject to more random traffic stops over the years on the way to his affirmative action-related boot-strapping.

783. It essentially marked a significant change in the cultural aspects of pot smoking
     lol.
     last time I saw somebody selling singles was on wall street. this was a long time ago, the ask was $1.
     everybody needs to relax on their lunch break!

784. It essentially marked a significant change in the cultural aspects of pot smoking
     lol.
     last time I saw somebody selling singles was on wall street. this was a long time ago, the ask was $1.
     everybody needs to relax on their lunch break!

785. On the other hand, maybe the kid grew up to be Paul Ryan:
     http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/04/paul-ryan-isnt-even-trying-pass-health-care-bill-anymore
     Is being full of crap a pre-existing condition?

786. On the other hand, maybe the kid grew up to be Paul Ryan:
     http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/04/paul-ryan-isnt-even-trying-pass-health-care-bill-anymore
     Is being full of crap a pre-existing condition?

787. Hitching a ride used to be as common as $10 lids. Those were the days. Once took me 13 rides to get from Astoria to Pullman. One leg, deep into the night, with a guy who was seriously deranged.
     Fun times.
     (PS: I don’t believe I have ever seen a black hitchhiker.)

788. Hitching a ride used to be as common as $10 lids. Those were the days. Once took me 13 rides to get from Astoria to Pullman. One leg, deep into the night, with a guy who was seriously deranged.
     Fun times.
     (PS: I don’t believe I have ever seen a black hitchhiker.)

789. Will anything be changed in anyone’s mind?
     Think of it as staying in shape. 🙂

790. Will anything be changed in anyone’s mind?
     Think of it as staying in shape. 🙂

791. “He’s 27 years old. His father dies, took over a regime. So say what you want but that is not easy, especially at that age,” Trump told Reuters.”
     Then trump changed the subject and began talking about Kim Jonh-un.

792. “He’s 27 years old. His father dies, took over a regime. So say what you want but that is not easy, especially at that age,” Trump told Reuters.”
     Then trump changed the subject and began talking about Kim Jonh-un.

793. cleek is as famous as Godwin:
     https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/04/28/we-gotta-get-right-back-where-we-started-from/

794. cleek is as famous as Godwin:
     https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/04/28/we-gotta-get-right-back-where-we-started-from/

795. sadly. the royalties aren’t enough to retire on.

796. sadly. the royalties aren’t enough to retire on.

797. i remember hitching with my mother. she was poor and young and always on the hunt for a party. i got to tag along.
     but, i never did it myself. the shine was well off it by the time i needed to go anywhere.

798. i remember hitching with my mother. she was poor and young and always on the hunt for a party. i got to tag along.
     but, i never did it myself. the shine was well off it by the time i needed to go anywhere.

799. President Trump threatened to terminate the U.S. trade agreement with South Korea in an interview Thursday night, declaring that the five-year-old accord with a key ally was “a horrible deal” that has left America ­“destroyed.”
     and then
     “He’s 27 years old. His father dies, took over a regime. So say what you want but that is not easy, especially at that age,” Trump told Reuters.
     When I read the first one of these, I was shocked. (Yes, Trump can still manage that with me. Somehow.)
     But looking at the combination, I realize it is merely a continuation of his policy, and it does seem to be a consistent policy — one of his few, or picking unnecessary fights with our friends and allies while brown-nosing the leaders of our enemies.

800. President Trump threatened to terminate the U.S. trade agreement with South Korea in an interview Thursday night, declaring that the five-year-old accord with a key ally was “a horrible deal” that has left America ­“destroyed.”
     and then
     “He’s 27 years old. His father dies, took over a regime. So say what you want but that is not easy, especially at that age,” Trump told Reuters.
     When I read the first one of these, I was shocked. (Yes, Trump can still manage that with me. Somehow.)
     But looking at the combination, I realize it is merely a continuation of his policy, and it does seem to be a consistent policy — one of his few, or picking unnecessary fights with our friends and allies while brown-nosing the leaders of our enemies.

801. I remember continental youngsters trying to get around Ireland hitchhiking … bad idea. The Irish seemed (seem?) to think that hitchhiking is a very strange and possibly dangerous concept, or something… they would never ever pick anyone up. So these unfortunate kids would be stuck for days in godforsaken places and the Irish weather didn’t help.

802. I remember continental youngsters trying to get around Ireland hitchhiking … bad idea. The Irish seemed (seem?) to think that hitchhiking is a very strange and possibly dangerous concept, or something… they would never ever pick anyone up. So these unfortunate kids would be stuck for days in godforsaken places and the Irish weather didn’t help.

803. (PS: I don’t believe I have ever seen a black hitchhiker.)
     I know. Weird, right?

804. (PS: I don’t believe I have ever seen a black hitchhiker.)
     I know. Weird, right?

805. Great, now the republican party under trump’s toupee is going to start registering American-made robots, who lack human compassion, just like their reps, but yet are deeply aggrieved about the coastal elite robots who are willing to pay for their maintenance under Obamacare, to vote in elections, while rounding up foreign-born robots for deportation:
     https://www.wsj.com/articles/powering-americas-manufacturing-renaissance-foreign-robots-1490549611

806. Great, now the republican party under trump’s toupee is going to start registering American-made robots, who lack human compassion, just like their reps, but yet are deeply aggrieved about the coastal elite robots who are willing to pay for their maintenance under Obamacare, to vote in elections, while rounding up foreign-born robots for deportation:
     https://www.wsj.com/articles/powering-americas-manufacturing-renaissance-foreign-robots-1490549611

807. sadly. the royalties aren’t enough to retire on.
     it’s like all the old timers say; you gotta hold on to the publishing.

808. sadly. the royalties aren’t enough to retire on.
     it’s like all the old timers say; you gotta hold on to the publishing.

809. I know. Weird, right?
     Absolutely top prize for (well-justified, relevant) sarcasm.

810. I know. Weird, right?
     Absolutely top prize for (well-justified, relevant) sarcasm.

811. here’s another awesome creation of the sharing economy:
     https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/2017/04/28/sofar-sounds-house-shows-airbnb-middleman/

812. here’s another awesome creation of the sharing economy:
     https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/2017/04/28/sofar-sounds-house-shows-airbnb-middleman/

813. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/05/01/how-hollywood-remembers-steve-bannon
     That a sociopathic, sadistic subhuman like this guy, and there are plenty of sociopaths like this, make and female, in the fucking Republican Party, gets to plant his fat ass on the White House cushions and touch anything in my government should be answered with across-the- board savage violence.

814. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/05/01/how-hollywood-remembers-steve-bannon
     That a sociopathic, sadistic subhuman like this guy, and there are plenty of sociopaths like this, make and female, in the fucking Republican Party, gets to plant his fat ass on the White House cushions and touch anything in my government should be answered with across-the- board savage violence.

815. I read the novel too (Zen and the Art …) , back in high school. An older sibling recommended it. I’ve known some next generation folks (millennials) who read it, but I don’t remember their take. I loved it when I read it.
     It’s quite real for me, here at ObWi, the part of ourselves we can present to each other. I have a lot of real world dinner party friends, with whom I’m pretty circumscribed. Novels are where we can find out what people are like when they aren’t holding back. I’m like GftNC in that I read a lot, but not necessarily work that is critically acclaimed current fiction. The recent excepton to that is the Ferrante quartet. I’m not sure why everyone in the world shouldn’t read that. Also, Jonathan Franzen, whose critics I get, but who I consider essential reading.
     Should spend less time here, and more time with novels, and also with great TV, which there is.

816. I read the novel too (Zen and the Art …) , back in high school. An older sibling recommended it. I’ve known some next generation folks (millennials) who read it, but I don’t remember their take. I loved it when I read it.
     It’s quite real for me, here at ObWi, the part of ourselves we can present to each other. I have a lot of real world dinner party friends, with whom I’m pretty circumscribed. Novels are where we can find out what people are like when they aren’t holding back. I’m like GftNC in that I read a lot, but not necessarily work that is critically acclaimed current fiction. The recent excepton to that is the Ferrante quartet. I’m not sure why everyone in the world shouldn’t read that. Also, Jonathan Franzen, whose critics I get, but who I consider essential reading.
     Should spend less time here, and more time with novels, and also with great TV, which there is.

817. In terms of reading about dystopias, keep in mind that things really horrible really happen. When I visited China a few times during the last 10 years? Yes, most people my age experienced it. Maybe that’s what’s coming to us soon, but I hope not.

818. In terms of reading about dystopias, keep in mind that things really horrible really happen. When I visited China a few times during the last 10 years? Yes, most people my age experienced it. Maybe that’s what’s coming to us soon, but I hope not.

819. Here’s a whipping up of fine dystopian violence, in the name of our shitass President of the United States:
     http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/04/theres-certainly-nothing-disconcerting.html
     If I’m in LaPierre’s physical presence, I watch his hands. If they move in any way that I take to be threatening, he’ll be the first victim of his flagrantly-evoked dystopia.
     We are the enemy. They want us dead.

820. Here’s a whipping up of fine dystopian violence, in the name of our shitass President of the United States:
     http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/04/theres-certainly-nothing-disconcerting.html
     If I’m in LaPierre’s physical presence, I watch his hands. If they move in any way that I take to be threatening, he’ll be the first victim of his flagrantly-evoked dystopia.
     We are the enemy. They want us dead.

821. Johnathan Karl and Reince Preibus talking about the press:

     KARL: I want to ask you about two things the President has said on related issues. First of all, there was what he said about opening up the libel laws. Tweeting “the failing New York Times has disgraced the media world. Gotten me wrong for two solid years. Change the libel laws?” That would require, as I understand it, a constitutional amendment. Is he really going to pursue that? Is that something he wants to pursue?
     PRIEBUS: I think it’s something that we’ve looked at. How that gets executed or whether that goes anywhere is a different story.

     Modify or abolish the 1st Amendment, because the press is picking on Trump.
     It’s like Nixon without the self-awareness.

822. Johnathan Karl and Reince Preibus talking about the press:

     KARL: I want to ask you about two things the President has said on related issues. First of all, there was what he said about opening up the libel laws. Tweeting “the failing New York Times has disgraced the media world. Gotten me wrong for two solid years. Change the libel laws?” That would require, as I understand it, a constitutional amendment. Is he really going to pursue that? Is that something he wants to pursue?
     PRIEBUS: I think it’s something that we’ve looked at. How that gets executed or whether that goes anywhere is a different story.

     Modify or abolish the 1st Amendment, because the press is picking on Trump.
     It’s like Nixon without the self-awareness.

823. I read Priebus’s response as ‘this is like the time President Toddler asked us to move the moon; we tell him we’ll look into it until he forgets about it.’
     “whether this goes anywhere” indeed.

824. I read Priebus’s response as ‘this is like the time President Toddler asked us to move the moon; we tell him we’ll look into it until he forgets about it.’
     “whether this goes anywhere” indeed.

825. We all need to develop the ability to parse comments from the White House staff on things like this. Otherwise we will spend a whole lot of energy worrying about trivia that isn’t going to happen. And there are more than enough real worries that Trump is generating to absorb all our energies.

826. We all need to develop the ability to parse comments from the White House staff on things like this. Otherwise we will spend a whole lot of energy worrying about trivia that isn’t going to happen. And there are more than enough real worries that Trump is generating to absorb all our energies.

827. When will we have a post asking the question:
     Why was there a Civil War?”
     To humor whatever Redstate dumb fucks who still lurk in these waters.

828. When will we have a post asking the question:
     Why was there a Civil War?”
     To humor whatever Redstate dumb fucks who still lurk in these waters.

829. Or perhaps
     Why was it a Civil War, as opposed to an Un-Civil one?
     Note that this is separate from the question of why it isn’t called a (failed) “revolution”, which it actually was.

830. Or perhaps
     Why was it a Civil War, as opposed to an Un-Civil one?
     Note that this is separate from the question of why it isn’t called a (failed) “revolution”, which it actually was.

831. Carleton, same here.

832. Carleton, same here.

833. “Note that this is separate from the question of why it isn’t called a (failed) “revolution”, which it actually was. ”
     I don’t think so, leaving is different than taking over. I think.

834. “Note that this is separate from the question of why it isn’t called a (failed) “revolution”, which it actually was. ”
     I don’t think so, leaving is different than taking over. I think.

835. i do fear that Trump might be normalizing the notion that the President really does have all these powers and that he could, if he wanted to, do all the stupid stuff he wants to do. it’s not like his fans and defenders are going to make a lot of noise about how stupid his ideas are – they’re going to ignore that and go on bitching about liberals and Muslims and gays.
     i also fear that Trump is going to wear out the word “normalizing”.

836. i do fear that Trump might be normalizing the notion that the President really does have all these powers and that he could, if he wanted to, do all the stupid stuff he wants to do. it’s not like his fans and defenders are going to make a lot of noise about how stupid his ideas are – they’re going to ignore that and go on bitching about liberals and Muslims and gays.
     i also fear that Trump is going to wear out the word “normalizing”.

837. the idea that priebus’ response was simply him “managing” a vain and apparently profoundly ignorant Trump is, unfortunately, not particularly reassuring.
     yes, I know they’re not going to get very far with changing the 1st A. that wasn’t the part that was bugging me.

838. the idea that priebus’ response was simply him “managing” a vain and apparently profoundly ignorant Trump is, unfortunately, not particularly reassuring.
     yes, I know they’re not going to get very far with changing the 1st A. that wasn’t the part that was bugging me.

839. Here ya go, Count. Something on the budget bill to brighten your day a little. Money quote:

     Democrats are surprised by just how many concessions they extracted in the trillion-dollar deal

840. Here ya go, Count. Something on the budget bill to brighten your day a little. Money quote:

     Democrats are surprised by just how many concessions they extracted in the trillion-dollar deal

841. “I don’t think so, leaving is different than taking over. I think.”
     Ergo, the British-American Civil War of 1775-1783.

842. “I don’t think so, leaving is different than taking over. I think.”
     Ergo, the British-American Civil War of 1775-1783.

843. In the case of 1861, more like a “counter-revolution”, or “devolution”, if you will.
     Are we not men?

844. In the case of 1861, more like a “counter-revolution”, or “devolution”, if you will.
     Are we not men?

845. History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.
     I used to think that George W was the farce to Reagan’s tragedy.
     Recently, I had to revise this, and start viewing W as the tragedy and Trump as the farce.
     But now Ive come full circle: Reagan’s tragedy can have W back as its farce (could W be anything but farce?), and Trump can be the farce of Mussolini.
     Fire may rain down on all of Korea and much of Japan the moment The Baby needs a distraction from domestic political failure, but at least Ill have an intellectual bucket to store all this in.

846. History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.
     I used to think that George W was the farce to Reagan’s tragedy.
     Recently, I had to revise this, and start viewing W as the tragedy and Trump as the farce.
     But now Ive come full circle: Reagan’s tragedy can have W back as its farce (could W be anything but farce?), and Trump can be the farce of Mussolini.
     Fire may rain down on all of Korea and much of Japan the moment The Baby needs a distraction from domestic political failure, but at least Ill have an intellectual bucket to store all this in.

847. Good point Count.

848. Good point Count.

849. I hope that one result of the past year is that you all will take Loki a bit more seriously now.

850. I hope that one result of the past year is that you all will take Loki a bit more seriously now.

851. could W be anything but farce?
     In retrospect, yes. (For which I suppose we thank Trump. Otherwise we wouldn’t have a proper appreciation of how wide the real range was.) For example, consider something as mundane as the annual Teacher of the Year meeting with the President. Bush was married to a school teacher, and honestly appreciated what those folks do. So there would be no chance of something like this year’s farce.

852. could W be anything but farce?
     In retrospect, yes. (For which I suppose we thank Trump. Otherwise we wouldn’t have a proper appreciation of how wide the real range was.) For example, consider something as mundane as the annual Teacher of the Year meeting with the President. Bush was married to a school teacher, and honestly appreciated what those folks do. So there would be no chance of something like this year’s farce.

853. Actually, I think the Amrican colony was different than the Souhern colonies.

854. Actually, I think the Amrican colony was different than the Souhern colonies.

855. Marty,
     it was a bit further south and west.
     regards.

856. Marty,
     it was a bit further south and west.
     regards.

857. No need for a post here. Our full of shit liberal media gives pigfucker dumbass trump et al credence by “debating” the issue:
     http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/05/liberal-media-discusses-why-was-there-civil-war
     As trump will say: “See, I’m right because EVERYBODY is talking about it.”
     Tomorrow: “Why is the sky blue? Nobody talks about it. Why is that? I mean, Andrew Jackson knew why when he lunched with Frederick Douglass in 1936, and both to this day are doing a great job.”
     Over to you ass wipe media.
     Meanwhile, wj, there are many other non-transparent ways of killing government programs other than legislating them out of existence. Hollow them out from the inside.
     The Courts.
     http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/5/1/1657908/-Trump-s-pick-to-head-federal-family-planning-program-Contraception-doesn-t-work
     If sex is a threesome between a man and a woman and God, do the first two participants yell out “Jesus Fucking Christ!” as acknowledgement of the third party in the sack with them, or as encouragement to jump aboard?
     Contraception doesn’t work? Tell it to the Navy as they hand out condoms before shore leave.
     Horseshit. America surpassed the Augean stables long ago in the collection and worship of it.

858. No need for a post here. Our full of shit liberal media gives pigfucker dumbass trump et al credence by “debating” the issue:
     http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/05/liberal-media-discusses-why-was-there-civil-war
     As trump will say: “See, I’m right because EVERYBODY is talking about it.”
     Tomorrow: “Why is the sky blue? Nobody talks about it. Why is that? I mean, Andrew Jackson knew why when he lunched with Frederick Douglass in 1936, and both to this day are doing a great job.”
     Over to you ass wipe media.
     Meanwhile, wj, there are many other non-transparent ways of killing government programs other than legislating them out of existence. Hollow them out from the inside.
     The Courts.
     http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/5/1/1657908/-Trump-s-pick-to-head-federal-family-planning-program-Contraception-doesn-t-work
     If sex is a threesome between a man and a woman and God, do the first two participants yell out “Jesus Fucking Christ!” as acknowledgement of the third party in the sack with them, or as encouragement to jump aboard?
     Contraception doesn’t work? Tell it to the Navy as they hand out condoms before shore leave.
     Horseshit. America surpassed the Augean stables long ago in the collection and worship of it.

859. Meanwhile, Shine’s gone at Fox. They’re desperate to get Sky, but Murdoch’s had no scruple in re-hiring someone before when the dust settles (see Rebekah Brooks), so you never know what will happen in the future.

860. Meanwhile, Shine’s gone at Fox. They’re desperate to get Sky, but Murdoch’s had no scruple in re-hiring someone before when the dust settles (see Rebekah Brooks), so you never know what will happen in the future.

861. Meanwhile, Shine’s gone at Fox.
     Gasp! More self-imposed censorship by the right wing media. Unlike the august New York Times, FOX seems to believe there are some bars that are simply set too low.

862. Meanwhile, Shine’s gone at Fox.
     Gasp! More self-imposed censorship by the right wing media. Unlike the august New York Times, FOX seems to believe there are some bars that are simply set too low.