There’s More Happening in the World than Trump — Weekend Open Thread

by

by wj

Among the interesting stories this past week, Kim Jong-nam, the (older) half brother of North Korea’s leader Kin Jong Un, was assassinated in Malaysia. Several North Koreans are in custody.

But the interesting bit is the response from China, where he has been resident for some years. China is said to feel insulted as a result. Not to mention frustrated by North Korea’s latest missile test. And it now appears that they are going to do something about it.

China is North Korea’s biggest trading partner by far. And the biggest export North Korea has is coal. So it matters that China has suspended all coal imports from North Korea. Immediately and for the rest of 2017. That’s going to hurt Kim John Un where it hurts: in the ability to buy the luxury imports that he loves.

No doubt there are other things happening in the world outside as well. Have at!

958 thoughts on “There’s More Happening in the World than Trump — Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Here in the U.K. what’s mainly happening is depression about Brexit and panic about Donald Trump.
    Also rain.

  2. Here in the U.K. what’s mainly happening is depression about Brexit and panic about Donald Trump.
    Also rain.

  5. The weather here in NJ is actually glorious: highs in mid-60s, blue skies. I’m getting off the damned Internet until Monday. I shall read only things on paper, and spend time OUTSIDE in the yard.
    And see “Allegiance” on Sunday.
    Take care, all!

  6. The weather here in NJ is actually glorious: highs in mid-60s, blue skies. I’m getting off the damned Internet until Monday. I shall read only things on paper, and spend time OUTSIDE in the yard.
    And see “Allegiance” on Sunday.
    Take care, all!

  7. Here in northern California, we have already passed the normal total for annual rainfall. (Note for those living in different climates: our “annual rainfall” is taken from July thru June.) Guess the drought may finally(!) be over.
    Today we are supposed to get a little sun. But by Sunday afternoon we will be back to the parade of storm after storm.
    The good news for me is that we don’t live down in a valley by a stream — which would currently be overflowing. The bad news is, the old retaining walls on the back hillside are gone, but the replacements are not yet in place. Good thing we’ve got a lot of tree roots there….

  8. Here in northern California, we have already passed the normal total for annual rainfall. (Note for those living in different climates: our “annual rainfall” is taken from July thru June.) Guess the drought may finally(!) be over.
    Today we are supposed to get a little sun. But by Sunday afternoon we will be back to the parade of storm after storm.
    The good news for me is that we don’t live down in a valley by a stream — which would currently be overflowing. The bad news is, the old retaining walls on the back hillside are gone, but the replacements are not yet in place. Good thing we’ve got a lot of tree roots there….

  9. News from NEOH is early-onset allergy season, if my state of being is anything to judge by. This has been a miserable winter/spring/winter/spring/winter/spring…

  10. News from NEOH is early-onset allergy season, if my state of being is anything to judge by. This has been a miserable winter/spring/winter/spring/winter/spring…

  11. News from NEOH is early-onset allergy season, if my state of being is anything to judge by. This has been a miserable winter/spring/winter/spring/winter/spring…

  12. News from NEOH is early-onset allergy season, if my state of being is anything to judge by. This has been a miserable winter/spring/winter/spring/winter/spring…

  17. I have come up with an idea** for a new product. Since I have neither the time nor the inclination to implement it myself, I toss it out here. Maybe someone else will see it and do something.
    The design of men’s pants has not changed materially in over a century:

    • Legs to the ankle
    • Front closure
    • 2 hip pockets
    • 2 front pockets
    • Sometimes a watch pocket — for all that nobody carries a pocket watch any more. And if they did, jeans (the most common place for them) are not where they would.

    (No, bell bottoms were not a material design change. And didn’t last, thank heavens.)
    These days, most people carry a cell phone. Typically, the phone gets stuffed in a hip pocket — even though a) a flat object in a curved container is just asking for mechanical breakage, and b) when you are sitting down, getting to it is seriously inconvenient. If you stick it in a front pocket, it’s even worse to get at while sitting.
    But suppose you added a pocket designed for a cell phone. Stick it on the outside of the thigh – that’s
    a) a lot flatter than a hip pocket, and
    b) readily accessible, regardless of whether you are standing or sitting.
    You could, I suppose, provide an optional feature: a built-in Faraday cage. (For the non-engineers among us, a Faraday cage is basically insulation, often a wire mesh, which blocks electromagnetic radiation.) Obviously if you want incoming signals, that’s not desirable. But if all you want is to make calls or send texts/tweets, it would be fine.
    But even with out the optional feature, it seems like it would be a great improvement on the current situation.
    ** As you can guess from the optional feature, the original inspiration is Trump-related. But the inspiration is basically irrelevant to the core design idea, so I’m feeling free to put it here.

  18. I have come up with an idea** for a new product. Since I have neither the time nor the inclination to implement it myself, I toss it out here. Maybe someone else will see it and do something.
    The design of men’s pants has not changed materially in over a century:

    • Legs to the ankle
    • Front closure
    • 2 hip pockets
    • 2 front pockets
    • Sometimes a watch pocket — for all that nobody carries a pocket watch any more. And if they did, jeans (the most common place for them) are not where they would.

    (No, bell bottoms were not a material design change. And didn’t last, thank heavens.)
    These days, most people carry a cell phone. Typically, the phone gets stuffed in a hip pocket — even though a) a flat object in a curved container is just asking for mechanical breakage, and b) when you are sitting down, getting to it is seriously inconvenient. If you stick it in a front pocket, it’s even worse to get at while sitting.
    But suppose you added a pocket designed for a cell phone. Stick it on the outside of the thigh – that’s
    a) a lot flatter than a hip pocket, and
    b) readily accessible, regardless of whether you are standing or sitting.
    You could, I suppose, provide an optional feature: a built-in Faraday cage. (For the non-engineers among us, a Faraday cage is basically insulation, often a wire mesh, which blocks electromagnetic radiation.) Obviously if you want incoming signals, that’s not desirable. But if all you want is to make calls or send texts/tweets, it would be fine.
    But even with out the optional feature, it seems like it would be a great improvement on the current situation.
    ** As you can guess from the optional feature, the original inspiration is Trump-related. But the inspiration is basically irrelevant to the core design idea, so I’m feeling free to put it here.

  19. If you search for cargo pants cellphone pocket, I think you’ll find someone pre-empted you I’m afraid.
    Though I am entirely in sympathy with the thrust of your post, wj. I have long lamented the fact that the average shirt pocket is nowhere near deep enough safely to hold a cellphone – though it’s where I invariably keep mine.

  20. If you search for cargo pants cellphone pocket, I think you’ll find someone pre-empted you I’m afraid.
    Though I am entirely in sympathy with the thrust of your post, wj. I have long lamented the fact that the average shirt pocket is nowhere near deep enough safely to hold a cellphone – though it’s where I invariably keep mine.

  21. Nice day here in chilly New England. Did some errands, shoveled the last chunks of ice out of the driveway so the mailman doesn’t fall and break his neck.
    Tried to do some work but MS tells me my credentials are stale. I’m dead to them, at least until the IT guys get it squared away on Tuesday. So fine, be that way, I’ll play some music instead.
    Gonna be a big stupid work meeting on Tuesday, purely over stupid coding style wars. Full team all-hands, duke it out until we settle it. We’re probably gonna burn up a man week all in, over a pissing match about dependency injection and interface segregation. There are no religious wars like coding style religious wars. What a freaking waste.
    If I ruled the world, computer science courses would teach people how to build and ship useful products, rather than piss around with the latest buzzword bullcrap.
    90% of coding is just not brain surgery or rocket science. It’s getting usable stuff done and shipped, within reasonable time and cost constraints, in order to create value for the organizations that are paying for it. That’s the gig.
    It’s plumbing, with electrons.
    If you’re good at that, you will never go hungry. Pro tip.
    Anyway, that’s Tuesday, today’s Saturday. Not gonna let it rain on my parade. Off to dinner out and then to see Solas at a local venue with my wife and some friends. Gonna be a fun time.
    Have a nice weekend everyone.

  22. Nice day here in chilly New England. Did some errands, shoveled the last chunks of ice out of the driveway so the mailman doesn’t fall and break his neck.
    Tried to do some work but MS tells me my credentials are stale. I’m dead to them, at least until the IT guys get it squared away on Tuesday. So fine, be that way, I’ll play some music instead.
    Gonna be a big stupid work meeting on Tuesday, purely over stupid coding style wars. Full team all-hands, duke it out until we settle it. We’re probably gonna burn up a man week all in, over a pissing match about dependency injection and interface segregation. There are no religious wars like coding style religious wars. What a freaking waste.
    If I ruled the world, computer science courses would teach people how to build and ship useful products, rather than piss around with the latest buzzword bullcrap.
    90% of coding is just not brain surgery or rocket science. It’s getting usable stuff done and shipped, within reasonable time and cost constraints, in order to create value for the organizations that are paying for it. That’s the gig.
    It’s plumbing, with electrons.
    If you’re good at that, you will never go hungry. Pro tip.
    Anyway, that’s Tuesday, today’s Saturday. Not gonna let it rain on my parade. Off to dinner out and then to see Solas at a local venue with my wife and some friends. Gonna be a fun time.
    Have a nice weekend everyone.

  23. If you search for cargo pants cellphone pocket, I think you’ll find someone pre-empted you I’m afraid.
    Man bag for me. But then, I’m a coastal elitist, and we can get away with stuff like that.

  24. If you search for cargo pants cellphone pocket, I think you’ll find someone pre-empted you I’m afraid.
    Man bag for me. But then, I’m a coastal elitist, and we can get away with stuff like that.

  25. If I ruled the world, computer science courses would teach people how to build and ship useful products, rather than piss around with the latest buzzword bullcrap.
    I think you’d actually need to get to the business schools. Managers seem, at least in my experience, to be the ones who jump on the latest code design fads and insist that everybody in the company IT department take classes and start doing things that way. (Getting managers to stop jumping on the latest fads in other areas of management would be a huge step forward in efficiency as well.)
    Personally, I think that once we got past spaghetti code we had gone far enough. Code should be written like prose: start with an outline of what you are going to say, and then fill in the words to say that. Gives you enough organization without all the irrelevant nonsense.

  26. If I ruled the world, computer science courses would teach people how to build and ship useful products, rather than piss around with the latest buzzword bullcrap.
    I think you’d actually need to get to the business schools. Managers seem, at least in my experience, to be the ones who jump on the latest code design fads and insist that everybody in the company IT department take classes and start doing things that way. (Getting managers to stop jumping on the latest fads in other areas of management would be a huge step forward in efficiency as well.)
    Personally, I think that once we got past spaghetti code we had gone far enough. Code should be written like prose: start with an outline of what you are going to say, and then fill in the words to say that. Gives you enough organization without all the irrelevant nonsense.

  27. Personally, I think that once we got past spaghetti code we had gone far enough.
    I think there are times and places for more sophisticated idioms. But I also think there is a hell of a lot of “solution looking for a problem” going on.
    It actually wastes a lot of time and money.
    Get offa my lawn, all you kids!!

  28. Personally, I think that once we got past spaghetti code we had gone far enough.
    I think there are times and places for more sophisticated idioms. But I also think there is a hell of a lot of “solution looking for a problem” going on.
    It actually wastes a lot of time and money.
    Get offa my lawn, all you kids!!

  29. Managers seem, at least in my experience, to be the ones who jump on the latest code design fads and insist that everybody in the company IT department take classes and start doing things that way.
    If I *really* ruled the world, I’d require B schools to teach people how to think.
    But now we’re veering off into crazy talk. Thinking is for those liberal arts kiddies.

  30. Managers seem, at least in my experience, to be the ones who jump on the latest code design fads and insist that everybody in the company IT department take classes and start doing things that way.
    If I *really* ruled the world, I’d require B schools to teach people how to think.
    But now we’re veering off into crazy talk. Thinking is for those liberal arts kiddies.

  31. And if *I* ruled the world, B school would have a high-speed conveyor belt into the “B Ark”.
    But, alas, NASA has been dragging its feet. Sad.

  32. And if *I* ruled the world, B school would have a high-speed conveyor belt into the “B Ark”.
    But, alas, NASA has been dragging its feet. Sad.

  37. Great minds think alike. Going on (gack!) 47 years ago, I was planning a solitary hike on the AT in western Mass. and Vermont, and I had a friend who knew how to sew add pockets to the outsides of my jeans, and some inner pockets to a flannel shirt. This was long before cargo shorts were readily available.
    Now I wear cargo shorts all summer, but I get frustrated in the winter because all I wear is jeans, and they don’t have side pockets. So there *is* an opportunity here, yes?
    Cautionary tale: when I first got a small flip phone, I carried it in the breast pocket of a flannel or button down shirt all the time. Then I started to get episodes of weird tingling in the body part under that pocket. I stopped carrying the phone in that pocket, and the tingling stopped occurring. Now I make sure to carry my phone in a bag or a very loose pocket next to a relatively non-sensitive body part, like the outer thigh. Call me old-fashioned, or just old — I didn’t get a smart phone until November — but the tingling symptom makes me think it isn’t the greatest idea of keep one of those gadgets close to my body all the time.

  38. Great minds think alike. Going on (gack!) 47 years ago, I was planning a solitary hike on the AT in western Mass. and Vermont, and I had a friend who knew how to sew add pockets to the outsides of my jeans, and some inner pockets to a flannel shirt. This was long before cargo shorts were readily available.
    Now I wear cargo shorts all summer, but I get frustrated in the winter because all I wear is jeans, and they don’t have side pockets. So there *is* an opportunity here, yes?
    Cautionary tale: when I first got a small flip phone, I carried it in the breast pocket of a flannel or button down shirt all the time. Then I started to get episodes of weird tingling in the body part under that pocket. I stopped carrying the phone in that pocket, and the tingling stopped occurring. Now I make sure to carry my phone in a bag or a very loose pocket next to a relatively non-sensitive body part, like the outer thigh. Call me old-fashioned, or just old — I didn’t get a smart phone until November — but the tingling symptom makes me think it isn’t the greatest idea of keep one of those gadgets close to my body all the time.

  39. russell — Coding fads remind me of something written by, IIRC, Jared Diamond:
    Invention is the mother of necessity.
    The older I get, the more I believe it.

  40. russell — Coding fads remind me of something written by, IIRC, Jared Diamond:
    Invention is the mother of necessity.
    The older I get, the more I believe it.

  53. What Adam said, also May looks less incompetent since Trump started ‘governing’ which is rather scary. Not looking forward to elections in the Netherlands and France and, later in the year, Germany … hoping the mob won’t raise it’s ugly head like in the US/UK.

  54. What Adam said, also May looks less incompetent since Trump started ‘governing’ which is rather scary. Not looking forward to elections in the Netherlands and France and, later in the year, Germany … hoping the mob won’t raise it’s ugly head like in the US/UK.

  55. Necessity may be the acknowledged mother of invention but I suspect that laziness is the father.
    I carry my smart-ass phone in a belt holster. The phone is one of the smaller ones — a Motorola Razor M — and the holster is a black faux-leather thing with a flap that holds closed magnetically like a refrigerator door. There’s an opening in the main pouch that lines up with the earphone jack, which is extremely convenient since I refuse to consider a Bluetooth earpiece on the principle that I don’t need one more battery, radio set, or software protocol in my life. When driving, I can answer calls hands-free, and if I look like a superannuated dork with a wire running up to my ear that’s fine.
    For men, at least, the belt is the perfect place to attach a cellphone. Women have it tougher, I admit. Of course, if phones keep growing like tumors as they have been doing, we may all have to switch to carrying them in backpacks.
    –TP

  56. Necessity may be the acknowledged mother of invention but I suspect that laziness is the father.
    I carry my smart-ass phone in a belt holster. The phone is one of the smaller ones — a Motorola Razor M — and the holster is a black faux-leather thing with a flap that holds closed magnetically like a refrigerator door. There’s an opening in the main pouch that lines up with the earphone jack, which is extremely convenient since I refuse to consider a Bluetooth earpiece on the principle that I don’t need one more battery, radio set, or software protocol in my life. When driving, I can answer calls hands-free, and if I look like a superannuated dork with a wire running up to my ear that’s fine.
    For men, at least, the belt is the perfect place to attach a cellphone. Women have it tougher, I admit. Of course, if phones keep growing like tumors as they have been doing, we may all have to switch to carrying them in backpacks.
    –TP

  57. Yes, what Adam and novakant said, plus frustration that the only person voicing the anti-Brexit line with any energy and conviction is Tony Blair, the exact wrong messenger to energise the opposition. Maybe it shouldn’t be so, but it is. Fuck fuck fuck, (or fnck fnck fnck as ObWi house style would, much less emphatically, have it).

  58. Yes, what Adam and novakant said, plus frustration that the only person voicing the anti-Brexit line with any energy and conviction is Tony Blair, the exact wrong messenger to energise the opposition. Maybe it shouldn’t be so, but it is. Fuck fuck fuck, (or fnck fnck fnck as ObWi house style would, much less emphatically, have it).

  59. Women don’t have the socially acceptable option of wearing them on a belt even if they’re wearing one, and much more frequently have no pockets to speak of, but carrying a bag is also not suspect like it is for men. So it’s not exactly worse. Ofc, as coastal elitist russell pointed out above, deference to gender norms is the only thing making this a competition between men and women…

  60. Women don’t have the socially acceptable option of wearing them on a belt even if they’re wearing one, and much more frequently have no pockets to speak of, but carrying a bag is also not suspect like it is for men. So it’s not exactly worse. Ofc, as coastal elitist russell pointed out above, deference to gender norms is the only thing making this a competition between men and women…

  61. How did we get here? What is 4chan exactly? And how did a website about anime become the avant garde of the far right? Mixed up with fascist movements, international intrigue, and Trump iconography? How do we interpret it all?
    …
    As someone who has witnessed 4chan grow from a group of adolescent boys who could fit into a single room at my local anime convention to a worldwide coalition of right wing extremists (which is still somehow also a message board about anime), I feel I have some obligation to explain.
    This essay is an attempt to untangle the threads of 4chan and the far right.
    https://medium.com/@DaleBeran/4chan-the-skeleton-key-to-the-rise-of-trump-624e7cb798cb#.3uew3ijwq
    This long but informative piece was just sent to me, and seems to contain a lot of very interesting stuff. I haven’t finished it yet, but may not have a chance to post later because for various reasons today is a rather crazy day for me, so I’m posting it now in the expectation that some of you may also find it interesting/informative.

  62. How did we get here? What is 4chan exactly? And how did a website about anime become the avant garde of the far right? Mixed up with fascist movements, international intrigue, and Trump iconography? How do we interpret it all?
    …
    As someone who has witnessed 4chan grow from a group of adolescent boys who could fit into a single room at my local anime convention to a worldwide coalition of right wing extremists (which is still somehow also a message board about anime), I feel I have some obligation to explain.
    This essay is an attempt to untangle the threads of 4chan and the far right.
    https://medium.com/@DaleBeran/4chan-the-skeleton-key-to-the-rise-of-trump-624e7cb798cb#.3uew3ijwq
    This long but informative piece was just sent to me, and seems to contain a lot of very interesting stuff. I haven’t finished it yet, but may not have a chance to post later because for various reasons today is a rather crazy day for me, so I’m posting it now in the expectation that some of you may also find it interesting/informative.

  63. GFTNC, I just read that before seeing your post. It’s really interesting … and strange. I posted it in a secret group I’m in on FB.

  64. GFTNC, I just read that before seeing your post. It’s really interesting … and strange. I posted it in a secret group I’m in on FB.

  65. Secret group, eh? (says she, who is completely ignorant of Facebook and its mysterious ways). I hope that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t have posted it here – I thought it was really interesting too. I’m about to virtually attend a memorial for an old friend in NYC, so (somewhat apprehensively) over and out.

  66. Secret group, eh? (says she, who is completely ignorant of Facebook and its mysterious ways). I hope that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t have posted it here – I thought it was really interesting too. I’m about to virtually attend a memorial for an old friend in NYC, so (somewhat apprehensively) over and out.

  67. Necessity may be the acknowledged mother of invention but I suspect that laziness is the father.
    sloth is mankind’s most underappreciated virtue! It’s responsible for pretty much all human progress.
    Who invented the wheel? Some guy who was too lazy to carry his food home. Who invented agriculture? Some woman who didn’t want to go to the effort of walking all over the countryside to gather food. For that matter, who invented the automobile? Somebody who thought caring for horses was a lot of unnecessary work.
    The list goes on and on.

  68. Necessity may be the acknowledged mother of invention but I suspect that laziness is the father.
    sloth is mankind’s most underappreciated virtue! It’s responsible for pretty much all human progress.
    Who invented the wheel? Some guy who was too lazy to carry his food home. Who invented agriculture? Some woman who didn’t want to go to the effort of walking all over the countryside to gather food. For that matter, who invented the automobile? Somebody who thought caring for horses was a lot of unnecessary work.
    The list goes on and on.

  71. I was Benghazied by a colleague when discussing the current mess. I guess I should have expected it since he is a religious home schooler.

  72. I was Benghazied by a colleague when discussing the current mess. I guess I should have expected it since he is a religious home schooler.

  73. Re: women carrying cellphones.
    BEST arrangement I saw was a woman wearing a hijab, with a smartphone tucked in the side, next to her ear.
    That is a tech-fashion that could use some virality.

  74. Re: women carrying cellphones.
    BEST arrangement I saw was a woman wearing a hijab, with a smartphone tucked in the side, next to her ear.
    That is a tech-fashion that could use some virality.

  77. In the winter (I mean real winter, not this current mess) you can do it with a hat and scarf fairly easily. I know I have.

  78. In the winter (I mean real winter, not this current mess) you can do it with a hat and scarf fairly easily. I know I have.

  79. Slave labor was invented by the slothful. Veritable entrepreneurs of sloth those plantation owners with whips were. The black man and woman and child as labor-saving device.
    On the one hand, a little work never hurt anyone, and yet the usual f*ckers want to use work to inflict punishment.
    “Get a job!” demands Wall Street as they lobby corporate America to be lean and mean, cut overhead, and fire those with jobs.
    America is full of shit.
    We deserve trump crawling as far up our butts as he can get.
    Sweden was wiped off the map yesterday by dozens of nuclear terrorist attacks. Millions have been incinerated.
    And yet crickets from the news media. Nadda. Like it never happened.

  80. Slave labor was invented by the slothful. Veritable entrepreneurs of sloth those plantation owners with whips were. The black man and woman and child as labor-saving device.
    On the one hand, a little work never hurt anyone, and yet the usual f*ckers want to use work to inflict punishment.
    “Get a job!” demands Wall Street as they lobby corporate America to be lean and mean, cut overhead, and fire those with jobs.
    America is full of shit.
    We deserve trump crawling as far up our butts as he can get.
    Sweden was wiped off the map yesterday by dozens of nuclear terrorist attacks. Millions have been incinerated.
    And yet crickets from the news media. Nadda. Like it never happened.

  81. GftNC, that meshes pretty well with my disinterested-if-not-outright-disgusted-outsider’s view over the years of the birth, rise, proliferation, and fermentation of channite culture online. There’s a bit of oversimplification IOT create a smooth narrative, but it’s oversimplification, not falsehood.

  82. GftNC, that meshes pretty well with my disinterested-if-not-outright-disgusted-outsider’s view over the years of the birth, rise, proliferation, and fermentation of channite culture online. There’s a bit of oversimplification IOT create a smooth narrative, but it’s oversimplification, not falsehood.

  83. Here in Finland, the week’s big news item was the cabinet’s defense policy white paper, which sets the guidelines for the next five years’ defense planning and procurement.
    The paper, which was prepared by the government with close input by a joint parliamentary ad hoc commission, defined some pretty important doctrinal points:
    *Finland considers a war, or armed crisis with Russia an actual, though unlikely possibility.
    *Finland considers it impossible that she could remain outside an armed crisis taking place in the Baltic Sea region.
    *Due to these points, the war-time size of the Finnish Defense Forces is increased from 230,000 men to 280,000 troops, a fighter aircraft replacement program is to be continued, the navy shall be strengthened with four corvettes.
    *As a result and Finland is going to increase military spending to over 2.0 percent of GDP from the current 1,6 per cent.
    *Bilateral defense cooperation with Sweden is strengthened, with no barriers for joint operative contigency planning or joint collective defense, and defense cooperation with NATO and its member states, especially US, Great Britain and Germany, is to be continued and deepened.

  84. Here in Finland, the week’s big news item was the cabinet’s defense policy white paper, which sets the guidelines for the next five years’ defense planning and procurement.
    The paper, which was prepared by the government with close input by a joint parliamentary ad hoc commission, defined some pretty important doctrinal points:
    *Finland considers a war, or armed crisis with Russia an actual, though unlikely possibility.
    *Finland considers it impossible that she could remain outside an armed crisis taking place in the Baltic Sea region.
    *Due to these points, the war-time size of the Finnish Defense Forces is increased from 230,000 men to 280,000 troops, a fighter aircraft replacement program is to be continued, the navy shall be strengthened with four corvettes.
    *As a result and Finland is going to increase military spending to over 2.0 percent of GDP from the current 1,6 per cent.
    *Bilateral defense cooperation with Sweden is strengthened, with no barriers for joint operative contigency planning or joint collective defense, and defense cooperation with NATO and its member states, especially US, Great Britain and Germany, is to be continued and deepened.

  85. Thanks, Lurker.
    That rather resembles my view of the situation in the Baltic area. But I realize I’m a very long way away, and don’t have more than a superficial acquaintance with the details. Good to know that things look much the same up close.

  86. Thanks, Lurker.
    That rather resembles my view of the situation in the Baltic area. But I realize I’m a very long way away, and don’t have more than a superficial acquaintance with the details. Good to know that things look much the same up close.

  93. I suppose this belies the OP, but this was interesting to me
    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/02/17/national/japans-interpreters-struggle-to-make-sense-of-trump-speeches/#.WKocEhJ94ia
    Don’t know if it will come thru, but it is about the challenge Japanese interpreters are having trying to translate Trump
    She still remembers the dread she felt as she was translating live Trump’s victory speech on Nov. 9, when the president-elect — apropos of nothing — made a reference to “Reince” and “secretariat” without spelling out who and what they are.
    “When he suddenly said ‘Reince is a superstar,’ I was literally thrown off. Only after the camera zoomed in on the face of a ‘Reince’ did I realize who Trump was talking about, and I hastily added, for the sake of the audience, that it’s actually ‘Reince Priebus, the Republican National Committee chairman,’ ” Hibi said.
    “The convenient thing about the Japanese language, however, is that it tends to do away with a subject in a sentence, so in this particular case, I first translated ‘superstar’ without clarifying who Trump was referring to, and carried on like this until I got a fuller picture.”
    But she wasn’t so lucky with “secretariat,” which she mistakenly thought was Trump’s alternate way of referring to Reince.
    “I mistranslated that one,” Hibi said. “It didn’t even occur to me that he was talking about a race horse. … It’s really hard to follow his train of thought.”

  94. I suppose this belies the OP, but this was interesting to me
    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/02/17/national/japans-interpreters-struggle-to-make-sense-of-trump-speeches/#.WKocEhJ94ia
    Don’t know if it will come thru, but it is about the challenge Japanese interpreters are having trying to translate Trump
    She still remembers the dread she felt as she was translating live Trump’s victory speech on Nov. 9, when the president-elect — apropos of nothing — made a reference to “Reince” and “secretariat” without spelling out who and what they are.
    “When he suddenly said ‘Reince is a superstar,’ I was literally thrown off. Only after the camera zoomed in on the face of a ‘Reince’ did I realize who Trump was talking about, and I hastily added, for the sake of the audience, that it’s actually ‘Reince Priebus, the Republican National Committee chairman,’ ” Hibi said.
    “The convenient thing about the Japanese language, however, is that it tends to do away with a subject in a sentence, so in this particular case, I first translated ‘superstar’ without clarifying who Trump was referring to, and carried on like this until I got a fuller picture.”
    But she wasn’t so lucky with “secretariat,” which she mistakenly thought was Trump’s alternate way of referring to Reince.
    “I mistranslated that one,” Hibi said. “It didn’t even occur to me that he was talking about a race horse. … It’s really hard to follow his train of thought.”

  95. Thanks again, Lurker. That’s a really fascinating document.
    Finland is in what I can only call a “bad neighborhood” — not in the sense of most of the neighboring countries being threatening, but in the sense of having a neighborhood bully which needs careful watching. And which, realistically, Finland alone could not stand against. It’s main defense is that successfully invading it would be just too expensive (although its various bi-lateral defense agreements help).
    P.S. I am always a bit amazed when the government of a nation which uses a language other than English nevertheless publishes a policy document in English. Especially considering some of the rather hysterical ranting that we have here when private businesses, let alone the government, choose to make materials available in a language other than English.

  96. Thanks again, Lurker. That’s a really fascinating document.
    Finland is in what I can only call a “bad neighborhood” — not in the sense of most of the neighboring countries being threatening, but in the sense of having a neighborhood bully which needs careful watching. And which, realistically, Finland alone could not stand against. It’s main defense is that successfully invading it would be just too expensive (although its various bi-lateral defense agreements help).
    P.S. I am always a bit amazed when the government of a nation which uses a language other than English nevertheless publishes a policy document in English. Especially considering some of the rather hysterical ranting that we have here when private businesses, let alone the government, choose to make materials available in a language other than English.

  97. “I mistranslated that one,” Hibi said. “It didn’t even occur to me that he was talking about a race horse. … It’s really hard to follow his train of thought.”
    LJ, I hope someone has told her that following his train of thought is challenging even for native speakers of (American) English. Just so she knows that problem isn’t her.

  98. “I mistranslated that one,” Hibi said. “It didn’t even occur to me that he was talking about a race horse. … It’s really hard to follow his train of thought.”
    LJ, I hope someone has told her that following his train of thought is challenging even for native speakers of (American) English. Just so she knows that problem isn’t her.

  109. Uber is being run by and from Trump’s inner circle in the White House.
    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/uber-ceo-calls-for-investigation-into-claims-of-sexual-harassment-rampant-bias-2017-02-19?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    I wonder what the intersectionality is (conservatives call it intersextionality) between 4chan gamer/basement masturbators, Miller and company in the White House, and Milo Yiannofacistapoulos’ plans to replace his mother’s washer and dryer with a rock and a paddle in a stream and a mangle with a crank to keep her tiny mind off her lady parts and a
    higher career.
    Although I wish Ayn Rand’s cuckolded husband had stepped up and kept her barefoot and busy so we could have avoided her now fully-culted and rancid malignity, not to mention acolyte Alan Greenspan.

  110. Uber is being run by and from Trump’s inner circle in the White House.
    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/uber-ceo-calls-for-investigation-into-claims-of-sexual-harassment-rampant-bias-2017-02-19?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    I wonder what the intersectionality is (conservatives call it intersextionality) between 4chan gamer/basement masturbators, Miller and company in the White House, and Milo Yiannofacistapoulos’ plans to replace his mother’s washer and dryer with a rock and a paddle in a stream and a mangle with a crank to keep her tiny mind off her lady parts and a
    higher career.
    Although I wish Ayn Rand’s cuckolded husband had stepped up and kept her barefoot and busy so we could have avoided her now fully-culted and rancid malignity, not to mention acolyte Alan Greenspan.

  111. trump is interviewing the Unabomber today at Mar-a-lago to head up the U.S. Post Office and to make mail delivery great again for coastal elites and the enemies of the people.
    First question from trump: “Hey una, tell me how we can make email explosive for these people?”

  112. trump is interviewing the Unabomber today at Mar-a-lago to head up the U.S. Post Office and to make mail delivery great again for coastal elites and the enemies of the people.
    First question from trump: “Hey una, tell me how we can make email explosive for these people?”

  113. Nigel, at least as interesting (to me, since I’m in it up to my elbows) as the increasing international collaboration in science is the increasing international collaboration in technology.
    One quick example. ICANN is the International Corporation for Assigning Names and Numbers. Basically, they make the rules for what you can have as a domain name (e.g. obsidianwings.blogs.com) and what IP Address your various network-enabled devices, including your cell phone and laptop, get assigned to use to find each other.
    Think of IETF (the Internet Engineering Task Force) as the international organization which figures out the specs for the cars that run on the internet, how wide the lanes are, etc. Whereas ICANN works out street names and house numbers so you can find and actually get to where you wanted to go.
    For historical reasons (invented here), the Internet has basically run on English. But there is currently a huge project in progress to figure out how to use names from other languages.
    I’m working on the sub-committee of that project that’s dealing with languages based on the Latin alphabet. (FYI, there are over 180 of them! And that doesn’t include other alphabets, e.g. Cyrillic or Cherokee, which use some characters which look identical.) The sub-committee is chaired by a lady in Serbia. Members include 2 from the USA (including me), 2 from Germany, and 1 each from France, Sweden, Algeria, Egypt, Nigeria and Pakistan.
    The sub-committees dealing with other orthographies (e.g. Chinese, Arabic, Hebrew) are equally diverse. It’s just the way that things get done out there in the real world. Even if you aren’t manufacturing stuff which has pieces produced in dozens of countries (sorry protectionist fanatics; but not very), technology means working with people from around the world on a recurring basis.

  114. Nigel, at least as interesting (to me, since I’m in it up to my elbows) as the increasing international collaboration in science is the increasing international collaboration in technology.
    One quick example. ICANN is the International Corporation for Assigning Names and Numbers. Basically, they make the rules for what you can have as a domain name (e.g. obsidianwings.blogs.com) and what IP Address your various network-enabled devices, including your cell phone and laptop, get assigned to use to find each other.
    Think of IETF (the Internet Engineering Task Force) as the international organization which figures out the specs for the cars that run on the internet, how wide the lanes are, etc. Whereas ICANN works out street names and house numbers so you can find and actually get to where you wanted to go.
    For historical reasons (invented here), the Internet has basically run on English. But there is currently a huge project in progress to figure out how to use names from other languages.
    I’m working on the sub-committee of that project that’s dealing with languages based on the Latin alphabet. (FYI, there are over 180 of them! And that doesn’t include other alphabets, e.g. Cyrillic or Cherokee, which use some characters which look identical.) The sub-committee is chaired by a lady in Serbia. Members include 2 from the USA (including me), 2 from Germany, and 1 each from France, Sweden, Algeria, Egypt, Nigeria and Pakistan.
    The sub-committees dealing with other orthographies (e.g. Chinese, Arabic, Hebrew) are equally diverse. It’s just the way that things get done out there in the real world. Even if you aren’t manufacturing stuff which has pieces produced in dozens of countries (sorry protectionist fanatics; but not very), technology means working with people from around the world on a recurring basis.

  117. There is absolutely nothing happening in the world that can be more than trump
    Today on FB a family member posted a man holding up a sign that said:

    Trump, the man who gave up his billionaire lifestyle to be humiliated, ridiculed, and slandered to save the American people

    To which another family member replied:

    Only a man that truly loves America would do it

    We live, not just in different countries, but in different universes. Totally different realities.
    I don’t have the tools to cross a divide that deep.
    I’m tempted to say we need somebody like Martin Luther King – not the same issues, but someone who would be able to get people to look past their ingrained habits of thought and imagine what other people’s lives are like.
    But then I remember how things turned out for him.
    I got nothing anymore. I’m plumb out of ideas. I was born in this country, have always lived here, for reasons both practical and sentimental do not plan to move away. I’m American.
    But I’m just along for the ride at this point. This is the craziest shit I’ve seen in my whole life, and I have no idea whatsoever where it’s going to land.
    The Nixon years probably come the closest, but even he was kind of mainstream compared to what we got now.
    Poppa’s got a brand new bag.

  118. There is absolutely nothing happening in the world that can be more than trump
    Today on FB a family member posted a man holding up a sign that said:

    Trump, the man who gave up his billionaire lifestyle to be humiliated, ridiculed, and slandered to save the American people

    To which another family member replied:

    Only a man that truly loves America would do it

    We live, not just in different countries, but in different universes. Totally different realities.
    I don’t have the tools to cross a divide that deep.
    I’m tempted to say we need somebody like Martin Luther King – not the same issues, but someone who would be able to get people to look past their ingrained habits of thought and imagine what other people’s lives are like.
    But then I remember how things turned out for him.
    I got nothing anymore. I’m plumb out of ideas. I was born in this country, have always lived here, for reasons both practical and sentimental do not plan to move away. I’m American.
    But I’m just along for the ride at this point. This is the craziest shit I’ve seen in my whole life, and I have no idea whatsoever where it’s going to land.
    The Nixon years probably come the closest, but even he was kind of mainstream compared to what we got now.
    Poppa’s got a brand new bag.

  119. Nixon and his people were tough guys and rats, but they knew shame, with the possible exceptions of Haldeman, Liddy, and Archie Bunker. As the rest of them went over the side of the ship, they showed a little embarrassment.
    Like so many men of that American generation, Nixon never took his private Jew-hatred, for example, public at the microphone in front of the women and the children.
    Because political correctness in public was once seen as common decency.
    Nixon at least wept from personal embarrassment when he went down, even if he was merely feeling sorry for himself for getting caught.
    These ilk today are something all together more malignly dangerous. When trump goes down, it will be a long standoff in a bunker with his chest-beating alpha acolytes along for the ride. They’ll go, but some of them, probably even him, will go feet first and horizontally.
    His idolators and dupes will react to his demise with savageness and violence.
    It will take a long time and many casualties to restore order and make America pretty good again.

  120. Nixon and his people were tough guys and rats, but they knew shame, with the possible exceptions of Haldeman, Liddy, and Archie Bunker. As the rest of them went over the side of the ship, they showed a little embarrassment.
    Like so many men of that American generation, Nixon never took his private Jew-hatred, for example, public at the microphone in front of the women and the children.
    Because political correctness in public was once seen as common decency.
    Nixon at least wept from personal embarrassment when he went down, even if he was merely feeling sorry for himself for getting caught.
    These ilk today are something all together more malignly dangerous. When trump goes down, it will be a long standoff in a bunker with his chest-beating alpha acolytes along for the ride. They’ll go, but some of them, probably even him, will go feet first and horizontally.
    His idolators and dupes will react to his demise with savageness and violence.
    It will take a long time and many casualties to restore order and make America pretty good again.

  121. I got nothing anymore. I’m plumb out of ideas.
    Keep doing what you’re doing – you’re one of the good guys.

  122. I got nothing anymore. I’m plumb out of ideas.
    Keep doing what you’re doing – you’re one of the good guys.

  127. Some stuff carries on. On the other hand, there’s this.
    Both IETF and ICANN meet 3 times a year. Meetings move around the world, coming to North America every couple of years. At the moment, both oprganizations are seriously discussing whether the next meeting scheduled for the US needs to be moved to, for example, Canada. Simply because of concerns over whether some members could even get into the country, not to mention what might happen to them while they are here.
    Those concerns may be overblown. But one of the reasons for moving the meetings around is to make it easier for people to get to (relatively) near-by events. And that would be a problem.
    In my experience, getting a US company’s permission to attend a conference is vastly easier if it is not out of country. Which means, we are talking about reducing US participation, and thus influence, in the groups which pretty much control the technology which drives modern economies. Especially including ours.

  128. Some stuff carries on. On the other hand, there’s this.
    Both IETF and ICANN meet 3 times a year. Meetings move around the world, coming to North America every couple of years. At the moment, both oprganizations are seriously discussing whether the next meeting scheduled for the US needs to be moved to, for example, Canada. Simply because of concerns over whether some members could even get into the country, not to mention what might happen to them while they are here.
    Those concerns may be overblown. But one of the reasons for moving the meetings around is to make it easier for people to get to (relatively) near-by events. And that would be a problem.
    In my experience, getting a US company’s permission to attend a conference is vastly easier if it is not out of country. Which means, we are talking about reducing US participation, and thus influence, in the groups which pretty much control the technology which drives modern economies. Especially including ours.

  129. I think I just posted the identical message twice, and it disappeared into the ether. God knows what gives. I’m going to unpack (down south for a couple of weeks). Over and out.
    wj: No clue. It doesn’t show up in the spam folder, nor anywhere else on the site.
    Stupid computers!

  130. I think I just posted the identical message twice, and it disappeared into the ether. God knows what gives. I’m going to unpack (down south for a couple of weeks). Over and out.
    wj: No clue. It doesn’t show up in the spam folder, nor anywhere else on the site.
    Stupid computers!

  145. to perhaps clarify, my reply to ugh was a reference to Marty’s comments to me from election night.
    gays being harassed while walking home from the store?
    muslim girl being hassled for wearing a hijab at soccer practice?
    some guy’s car defaced with the word “nigger”?
    clearly I was unhinged to find any of that alarming.
    i’m still looking for my missing hinge.

  146. to perhaps clarify, my reply to ugh was a reference to Marty’s comments to me from election night.
    gays being harassed while walking home from the store?
    muslim girl being hassled for wearing a hijab at soccer practice?
    some guy’s car defaced with the word “nigger”?
    clearly I was unhinged to find any of that alarming.
    i’m still looking for my missing hinge.

  149. First off it wasn’t election night, second, I have discussed the exact scenarios you describe with a lot of people, mostly liberals I know in Boston and the majority had the same reaction that I did, are you just noticing this crap happens in Boston every day? Did you read the police blotter for the first time and just take the list and blame it on “Trump got elected”?
    Yes the left is completely unhinged thrashing around for some justification from “Russia” to the 25th amendment to show it was a “mistake” that he got elected. So far it’s gotten worse not better. The NY Times prints front page stories that don’t include a single fact and everyone goes off the deep end saying “see”? Mother freaking Jones is being quoted as news. Even for Watergate they spent months collecting and verifying facts, they didn’t take a single anonymous source and make up the rest.
    And the worst part is that really sane, intelligent, thoughtful people who I have great respect for have lost their minds and any sense of perspective.
    He poses a challenge for us all. His policies are a mixed bag, his bluster is dangerous at times, his choices for governmental leadership range from awful to pretty good. But the fact that he doesn’t have all the government filled in is as much due to the Democrats obstruction of his appointments as any incompetence on his part. There is a difference between objecting to his policies and behavior and looking for excuses to remove him.
    I seem to see lots of people supporting your right to exercise your religious beliefs by harboring fugitives. I know lots of people who see that as against the law. I see stupid FB posts on either side all day every day.
    In this blog on a regular basis there are people who mock people’s fee fees getting good hurt, yet it is a veritable laundry list of hurt feelings almost everyday.
    If the term unhinged set wrong then take overwrought, lack of perspective, whatever you might be able to hear and understand I am an admirer of your mind and your principles. Or dont.

  150. First off it wasn’t election night, second, I have discussed the exact scenarios you describe with a lot of people, mostly liberals I know in Boston and the majority had the same reaction that I did, are you just noticing this crap happens in Boston every day? Did you read the police blotter for the first time and just take the list and blame it on “Trump got elected”?
    Yes the left is completely unhinged thrashing around for some justification from “Russia” to the 25th amendment to show it was a “mistake” that he got elected. So far it’s gotten worse not better. The NY Times prints front page stories that don’t include a single fact and everyone goes off the deep end saying “see”? Mother freaking Jones is being quoted as news. Even for Watergate they spent months collecting and verifying facts, they didn’t take a single anonymous source and make up the rest.
    And the worst part is that really sane, intelligent, thoughtful people who I have great respect for have lost their minds and any sense of perspective.
    He poses a challenge for us all. His policies are a mixed bag, his bluster is dangerous at times, his choices for governmental leadership range from awful to pretty good. But the fact that he doesn’t have all the government filled in is as much due to the Democrats obstruction of his appointments as any incompetence on his part. There is a difference between objecting to his policies and behavior and looking for excuses to remove him.
    I seem to see lots of people supporting your right to exercise your religious beliefs by harboring fugitives. I know lots of people who see that as against the law. I see stupid FB posts on either side all day every day.
    In this blog on a regular basis there are people who mock people’s fee fees getting good hurt, yet it is a veritable laundry list of hurt feelings almost everyday.
    If the term unhinged set wrong then take overwrought, lack of perspective, whatever you might be able to hear and understand I am an admirer of your mind and your principles. Or dont.

  151. More …. actually less …. on Sweden.
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/closer-look-killing-fields-sweden
    Meanwhile, vandalism of Jewish cemeteries and similar crimes in the United States are soaring since November 9, 2016. I don’t know what happened on that day that might have precipitated such a trend, but some are suggesting that lead has been slipped into some conservatives’ coffee and making them loco since then, though I noticed behavioral symptoms before that.
    Some conservative white Christians in what has been called flyover country are aghast that Jewish cemeteries and gay nightclubs and such are under attack because they believe THEY are the victims of violence, hate, and discrimination in this country and are feeling slighted by reality.
    When is someone going to shoot up an all-white church in the South, they wonder? The state of Texas is contemplating a program to deflect violence and mayhem away from Muslim worshiping houses in its state by putting up signs on mosques that direct would-be scofflaws to the addresses of white Christian churches in nearby areas that have never been the targets of hate and discrimination and want to know “What about us?”
    The current Administration Washington D.C. is working feverishly to equalize the violence across the country. For every black church or Muslim mosque vandalized, shot up, or burned to the ground, the Justice Department will distribute federal dollars to white Christian churches to upgrade their facilities.

  152. More …. actually less …. on Sweden.
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/closer-look-killing-fields-sweden
    Meanwhile, vandalism of Jewish cemeteries and similar crimes in the United States are soaring since November 9, 2016. I don’t know what happened on that day that might have precipitated such a trend, but some are suggesting that lead has been slipped into some conservatives’ coffee and making them loco since then, though I noticed behavioral symptoms before that.
    Some conservative white Christians in what has been called flyover country are aghast that Jewish cemeteries and gay nightclubs and such are under attack because they believe THEY are the victims of violence, hate, and discrimination in this country and are feeling slighted by reality.
    When is someone going to shoot up an all-white church in the South, they wonder? The state of Texas is contemplating a program to deflect violence and mayhem away from Muslim worshiping houses in its state by putting up signs on mosques that direct would-be scofflaws to the addresses of white Christian churches in nearby areas that have never been the targets of hate and discrimination and want to know “What about us?”
    The current Administration Washington D.C. is working feverishly to equalize the violence across the country. For every black church or Muslim mosque vandalized, shot up, or burned to the ground, the Justice Department will distribute federal dollars to white Christian churches to upgrade their facilities.

  155. are you just noticing this crap happens in Boston every day? Did you read the police blotter for the first time and just take the list and blame it on “Trump got elected”?
    I don’t live in Boston. In the area I live in, no, gays are not harassed on their way home from the store, people don’t have “nigger” written on their car, and little kids are not harassed for being Muslim as a normal day-to-day thing.
    I wasn’t reading the police blotter, I was responding to the alarm of friends expressed on email and other social media channels, in real time. They were alarmed about things that they were encountering, directly and personally, and which were not a normal part of their experience.
    If you are an “admirer of my mind and my principles”, then don’t dismiss things I say here as being anything other than what I say they are. Don’t tell me my friends suck if their kids are upset about Trump being president, don’t tell me I’m unhinged if I respond with alarm to events that are disturbing and out of the norm.
    You make great hay out of how liberals look down on plain old regular folks. Dismiss their concerns, belittle their beliefs and interests, don’t want to hear what they have to say.
    You do exactly the same thing.
    My next door neighbors are Jews in their 80’s. There are limbs and branches missing from their family trees. Should they be disturbed by all of the Jewish Community Centers suddenly getting bomb threats? Or cemeteries being defaced? Are they unhinged if they do so?
    My wife and I have a number of married gay couples in our circle of friends. Many of them are raising children. VP Pence would be happy to see the legal recognition of their marriages go away. Should they be concerned? Are they just “flailing about” if they worry about a Trump presidency?
    I live in the midst of towns and small cities with quite large immigrant populations. Larger, as a percentage of population, than in many “border state” cities. I lived for a number of years in an immigrant neighborhood. What should those folks be getting ready for? Some of the schools are already running programs for the DACA kids, explaining to them that they may need to think about how they will handle being deported or having their families split up. Because that’s a tangible reality. Not fear-mongering, but basic planning for concrete reality.
    I could go on at length.
    A significant number of people who support Trump are racists, bigots, and in some cases outright Nazis. Many are not, many are. His primary advisor is a guy who may well be a reactionary fascist, in the correct historical use of that term. Since the election, acts of violence and harassment against women, gays, and ethnic and religious minorities have spiked up.
    Should people be worried about that? Or should we all just say hey, no worries, nothing to see here? How long should we wait to see how things will “turn out”?
    You seem to be committed to the idea that there is nothing unusual in a Trump presidency, nothing out of the ordinary, nothing for anyone to be concerned about above and beyond the normal play of American partisan politics.
    I’m not convinced that is so.
    It’s fine for you to think what you think. I think it’s naive, but you’re entitled to your point of view.
    If you’re going to say you “admire and respect” my point of view, you need to extend the same courtesy. Respect and dismissal cannot occupy the same space.
    If you’re not worried, fine. Extend some respect to folks who are.

  156. are you just noticing this crap happens in Boston every day? Did you read the police blotter for the first time and just take the list and blame it on “Trump got elected”?
    I don’t live in Boston. In the area I live in, no, gays are not harassed on their way home from the store, people don’t have “nigger” written on their car, and little kids are not harassed for being Muslim as a normal day-to-day thing.
    I wasn’t reading the police blotter, I was responding to the alarm of friends expressed on email and other social media channels, in real time. They were alarmed about things that they were encountering, directly and personally, and which were not a normal part of their experience.
    If you are an “admirer of my mind and my principles”, then don’t dismiss things I say here as being anything other than what I say they are. Don’t tell me my friends suck if their kids are upset about Trump being president, don’t tell me I’m unhinged if I respond with alarm to events that are disturbing and out of the norm.
    You make great hay out of how liberals look down on plain old regular folks. Dismiss their concerns, belittle their beliefs and interests, don’t want to hear what they have to say.
    You do exactly the same thing.
    My next door neighbors are Jews in their 80’s. There are limbs and branches missing from their family trees. Should they be disturbed by all of the Jewish Community Centers suddenly getting bomb threats? Or cemeteries being defaced? Are they unhinged if they do so?
    My wife and I have a number of married gay couples in our circle of friends. Many of them are raising children. VP Pence would be happy to see the legal recognition of their marriages go away. Should they be concerned? Are they just “flailing about” if they worry about a Trump presidency?
    I live in the midst of towns and small cities with quite large immigrant populations. Larger, as a percentage of population, than in many “border state” cities. I lived for a number of years in an immigrant neighborhood. What should those folks be getting ready for? Some of the schools are already running programs for the DACA kids, explaining to them that they may need to think about how they will handle being deported or having their families split up. Because that’s a tangible reality. Not fear-mongering, but basic planning for concrete reality.
    I could go on at length.
    A significant number of people who support Trump are racists, bigots, and in some cases outright Nazis. Many are not, many are. His primary advisor is a guy who may well be a reactionary fascist, in the correct historical use of that term. Since the election, acts of violence and harassment against women, gays, and ethnic and religious minorities have spiked up.
    Should people be worried about that? Or should we all just say hey, no worries, nothing to see here? How long should we wait to see how things will “turn out”?
    You seem to be committed to the idea that there is nothing unusual in a Trump presidency, nothing out of the ordinary, nothing for anyone to be concerned about above and beyond the normal play of American partisan politics.
    I’m not convinced that is so.
    It’s fine for you to think what you think. I think it’s naive, but you’re entitled to your point of view.
    If you’re going to say you “admire and respect” my point of view, you need to extend the same courtesy. Respect and dismissal cannot occupy the same space.
    If you’re not worried, fine. Extend some respect to folks who are.

  157. This is a regulation I could get behind:
    https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/iceland-president-ban-pineapple-pizza-gudni-th-johannesson
    I quote and cite Mother Freaking Jones as opinion and further analysis ABOUT the news. Sometimes I pull the news link out of the offending opinion piece and bring it here to get closer to the source.
    “The NY Times prints front page stories that don’t include a single fact …”
    Link to one of those. I’m past my monthly free internet allotment for the NYT, but I’ll look it up at the library.
    When you are competing with Breitbart and trump “news” conferences in a world devoid of truth, why clutter things up with facts?
    “Yes the left is completely unhinged thrashing around for some justification from “Russia” to the 25th amendment to show it was a “mistake” that he got elected.”
    I long for the days when a guy could merely say “Benghazi” or “Vince Foster” or “emails” in a hysterical tone of voice around here and the polls would crater.
    “Even for Watergate they spent months collecting and verifying facts, they didn’t take a single anonymous source and make up the rest.”
    Think how much more efficient, cheaper, and businesslike it would have been if Nixon and company had just admitted everything upfront.
    “There is a difference between objecting to his policies and behavior and looking for excuses to remove him.”
    Again you bring up Obama and Clinton. And you insist on using masculine pronouns in reference to Clinton.
    Besides, we had a meeting the day after the election and decided to block, obfuscate, and no-walk every trump initiative and appointee for the next four years.
    If you try and indict our current behavior and use that meeting as evidence, despite its being reported by every single news outlet, we’ll ignore any reference to the meeting like it never happened, and if anything does get through the net, I’ll personally threaten anyone here who plans to vote for anything trump or the Republican Congress brings up by finding the biggest as*holes I can to primary them the next time we have an election, which could be awhile.
    I’m owed a hearing on Merrick Garland.
    Speaking for my own self, I am without feeling.

  158. This is a regulation I could get behind:
    https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/iceland-president-ban-pineapple-pizza-gudni-th-johannesson
    I quote and cite Mother Freaking Jones as opinion and further analysis ABOUT the news. Sometimes I pull the news link out of the offending opinion piece and bring it here to get closer to the source.
    “The NY Times prints front page stories that don’t include a single fact …”
    Link to one of those. I’m past my monthly free internet allotment for the NYT, but I’ll look it up at the library.
    When you are competing with Breitbart and trump “news” conferences in a world devoid of truth, why clutter things up with facts?
    “Yes the left is completely unhinged thrashing around for some justification from “Russia” to the 25th amendment to show it was a “mistake” that he got elected.”
    I long for the days when a guy could merely say “Benghazi” or “Vince Foster” or “emails” in a hysterical tone of voice around here and the polls would crater.
    “Even for Watergate they spent months collecting and verifying facts, they didn’t take a single anonymous source and make up the rest.”
    Think how much more efficient, cheaper, and businesslike it would have been if Nixon and company had just admitted everything upfront.
    “There is a difference between objecting to his policies and behavior and looking for excuses to remove him.”
    Again you bring up Obama and Clinton. And you insist on using masculine pronouns in reference to Clinton.
    Besides, we had a meeting the day after the election and decided to block, obfuscate, and no-walk every trump initiative and appointee for the next four years.
    If you try and indict our current behavior and use that meeting as evidence, despite its being reported by every single news outlet, we’ll ignore any reference to the meeting like it never happened, and if anything does get through the net, I’ll personally threaten anyone here who plans to vote for anything trump or the Republican Congress brings up by finding the biggest as*holes I can to primary them the next time we have an election, which could be awhile.
    I’m owed a hearing on Merrick Garland.
    Speaking for my own self, I am without feeling.

  159. I can’t read this because it’s behind the pay wall:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/20/world/europe/europe-combats-a-new-foe-of-political-stability-fake-news.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0&mtrref=digbysblog.blogspot.com&gwh=67932DE027AB7CDEB27AB1C0550D9805&gwt=pay
    Someone else read it and let me know if it contains a dearth of facts I can ignore.
    I lost my taste for facts when they started calling Iceland … Iceland ….. and Greenland … Greenland.
    It’s been Jabberwocky ever since.

  160. I can’t read this because it’s behind the pay wall:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/20/world/europe/europe-combats-a-new-foe-of-political-stability-fake-news.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0&mtrref=digbysblog.blogspot.com&gwh=67932DE027AB7CDEB27AB1C0550D9805&gwt=pay
    Someone else read it and let me know if it contains a dearth of facts I can ignore.
    I lost my taste for facts when they started calling Iceland … Iceland ….. and Greenland … Greenland.
    It’s been Jabberwocky ever since.

  161. Marty, I know you were addressing russell and his comments, but I just want to bring some things to your attention.
    The horror that Trump is evoking is not just in liberals, in Boston or even in the USA. The Economist Intelligence Unit, before the election, put his possible victory as one of the top ten greatest threats to the world economy, and Nigel recently linked to an estimate that his protectionist policies are likely to hit the US economy harder than anywhere else. But that’s “just” the economy, and you can certainly counterclaim that the jury is still out.
    But in terms of financial corruption, the path of evidence seems incontrovertible already. 1. No release of tax returns, 2. No divestment of businesses, 3. Contravention of the Emoluments Clause and other terms (e.g. of leases) in hotel bookings, Mar-a-Lago membership fees etc etc.
    And that is before we even come to security issues (Android phone, Mar-a-Lago situation room etc). Or possible issues of election interference or collusion between “team Trump” and Russia, without even mentioning the (I am prepared to concede unlikely) possibility that he may have personally committed treason. I know that your line on this is that none of this is known for sure, but there is enough prima facie evidence for deep unease in all the capitals of the world, and the suggestion that strong allies (e.g. the UK) have started withholding intelligence cooperation on the basis that it may thereafter be compromised.
    You may say all this is conjecture, and must wait for hard evidence (which may in fact exist – see Comey/Senate committee meeting), but I suggest to you that you may be indulging in wishful thinking, and a tribal impulse to turn on “the opposition”, i.e. Democrats, liberals or lefties.
    You say:
    Yes the left is completely unhinged thrashing around for some justification from “Russia” to the 25th amendment to show it was a “mistake” that he got elected.
    but as far as I know nobody says it was a “mistake” exactly, just a potential disaster inflicted by people who, unlike you, were not sufficiently informed about all the reasons to look askance, or more than askance, at him. If these various “really sane, intelligent, thoughtful people who I have great respect for” are taking a different view, perhaps you should re-examine your assumptions. And by the way, the 25th Amendment was initially brought up by McKinney, who I assume you do not consider a liberal or lefty. I think in his last post he even said that the security situation had made him think that the time was now near for invoking it.

  162. Marty, I know you were addressing russell and his comments, but I just want to bring some things to your attention.
    The horror that Trump is evoking is not just in liberals, in Boston or even in the USA. The Economist Intelligence Unit, before the election, put his possible victory as one of the top ten greatest threats to the world economy, and Nigel recently linked to an estimate that his protectionist policies are likely to hit the US economy harder than anywhere else. But that’s “just” the economy, and you can certainly counterclaim that the jury is still out.
    But in terms of financial corruption, the path of evidence seems incontrovertible already. 1. No release of tax returns, 2. No divestment of businesses, 3. Contravention of the Emoluments Clause and other terms (e.g. of leases) in hotel bookings, Mar-a-Lago membership fees etc etc.
    And that is before we even come to security issues (Android phone, Mar-a-Lago situation room etc). Or possible issues of election interference or collusion between “team Trump” and Russia, without even mentioning the (I am prepared to concede unlikely) possibility that he may have personally committed treason. I know that your line on this is that none of this is known for sure, but there is enough prima facie evidence for deep unease in all the capitals of the world, and the suggestion that strong allies (e.g. the UK) have started withholding intelligence cooperation on the basis that it may thereafter be compromised.
    You may say all this is conjecture, and must wait for hard evidence (which may in fact exist – see Comey/Senate committee meeting), but I suggest to you that you may be indulging in wishful thinking, and a tribal impulse to turn on “the opposition”, i.e. Democrats, liberals or lefties.
    You say:
    Yes the left is completely unhinged thrashing around for some justification from “Russia” to the 25th amendment to show it was a “mistake” that he got elected.
    but as far as I know nobody says it was a “mistake” exactly, just a potential disaster inflicted by people who, unlike you, were not sufficiently informed about all the reasons to look askance, or more than askance, at him. If these various “really sane, intelligent, thoughtful people who I have great respect for” are taking a different view, perhaps you should re-examine your assumptions. And by the way, the 25th Amendment was initially brought up by McKinney, who I assume you do not consider a liberal or lefty. I think in his last post he even said that the security situation had made him think that the time was now near for invoking it.

  163. the left is completely unhinged thrashing around for some justification from “Russia” to the 25th amendment to show it was a “mistake” that he got elected.
    There’s no real question that some on the left are going off over things that would happen in any Republican administration. (And some over things that most Democratic administrations would do, too. No pleasing some people.)
    But that doesn’t mean that there are not multiple things that Trump is doing which suggest, even to folks like Republican US Senators, that he is a serious mistake. At this point, all the people who tried to claim that he would become more like a normal Republican once in office have been pretty much proven wrong — he may sign some bills that Republicans like, but that’s not the same thing.
    Note that it’s not just people on the left who are seriously concerned about Trump and Russia. Nor who are seriously concerned about the fact that he appears to have minimal to no emotional control. And no interest in information sources outside cable TV.

  164. the left is completely unhinged thrashing around for some justification from “Russia” to the 25th amendment to show it was a “mistake” that he got elected.
    There’s no real question that some on the left are going off over things that would happen in any Republican administration. (And some over things that most Democratic administrations would do, too. No pleasing some people.)
    But that doesn’t mean that there are not multiple things that Trump is doing which suggest, even to folks like Republican US Senators, that he is a serious mistake. At this point, all the people who tried to claim that he would become more like a normal Republican once in office have been pretty much proven wrong — he may sign some bills that Republicans like, but that’s not the same thing.
    Note that it’s not just people on the left who are seriously concerned about Trump and Russia. Nor who are seriously concerned about the fact that he appears to have minimal to no emotional control. And no interest in information sources outside cable TV.

  169. the fact that he doesn’t have all the government filled in is as much due to the Democrats obstruction of his appointments as any incompetence on his part.
    Marty, I’m at a total loss as to how you figure this.
    The rate of approvals going thru the Senate is about average. Hearings are lasting no longer than usual, often less. (And since Republicans control the Senate, if there are nominees for jobs who have not had hearings, it’s hardly the Democrats fault. However much they might dislike the nominee in question.)
    The fact is, people aren’t getting nominated. Partly because Cabinet secretaries are not being allowed to pick their own subordinates; everybody has to filter thru the White House to make sure they never said anything negative about Trump during the primaries. And, it appears from a distance, partly because the folks in the White House simply don’t much care whether the positions get filled or not.

  170. the fact that he doesn’t have all the government filled in is as much due to the Democrats obstruction of his appointments as any incompetence on his part.
    Marty, I’m at a total loss as to how you figure this.
    The rate of approvals going thru the Senate is about average. Hearings are lasting no longer than usual, often less. (And since Republicans control the Senate, if there are nominees for jobs who have not had hearings, it’s hardly the Democrats fault. However much they might dislike the nominee in question.)
    The fact is, people aren’t getting nominated. Partly because Cabinet secretaries are not being allowed to pick their own subordinates; everybody has to filter thru the White House to make sure they never said anything negative about Trump during the primaries. And, it appears from a distance, partly because the folks in the White House simply don’t much care whether the positions get filled or not.

  173. I will only comment GftNC that the emoluments clause doesn’t speak to selling his foreign businesses, there is no legal requirement to release your tax returns and it is ludicrous to expect someone who actually owns multimillion dollar businesses to sell them off to become President. I am sure Washington and Jefferson didn’t sell their farms.
    I am unhappy that the relationship with Mar-A-Lago doesn’t seem to have been cut from a financial perspective, although I don’t know it hasn’t, it is the essence of the criticism I had of the Clintons that they used the office to get rich(er), even if they and he can legally deny it. So guess what, I still wouldn’t vote for him. he is a con artist and provocateur. But I am not willing to bring down our government and way of life over that.
    Lots of his other businesses will get some value from him being President, whether he technically sold them or not. Some have suffered from him being President.
    And yes, lots of people are saying it was a “mistake” and that the people who voted for him are suffering buyers remorse blah blah. And I disagree wholeheartedly with McK. The obvious perversion of the 25th is just a coup. we would howl loudly if that were tried anywhere else in the world, unless of course we wanted it done.
    And yes, the rest is unsupported, story a day bs to keep the excitement up on the left hoping it will create the very circumstances to “justify” that coup.

  174. I will only comment GftNC that the emoluments clause doesn’t speak to selling his foreign businesses, there is no legal requirement to release your tax returns and it is ludicrous to expect someone who actually owns multimillion dollar businesses to sell them off to become President. I am sure Washington and Jefferson didn’t sell their farms.
    I am unhappy that the relationship with Mar-A-Lago doesn’t seem to have been cut from a financial perspective, although I don’t know it hasn’t, it is the essence of the criticism I had of the Clintons that they used the office to get rich(er), even if they and he can legally deny it. So guess what, I still wouldn’t vote for him. he is a con artist and provocateur. But I am not willing to bring down our government and way of life over that.
    Lots of his other businesses will get some value from him being President, whether he technically sold them or not. Some have suffered from him being President.
    And yes, lots of people are saying it was a “mistake” and that the people who voted for him are suffering buyers remorse blah blah. And I disagree wholeheartedly with McK. The obvious perversion of the 25th is just a coup. we would howl loudly if that were tried anywhere else in the world, unless of course we wanted it done.
    And yes, the rest is unsupported, story a day bs to keep the excitement up on the left hoping it will create the very circumstances to “justify” that coup.

  175. Count, is this what you wanted? I have tried to delete all the photo, comment stuff, but there may be some left in. Sorry it’s so long!
    A Back-Channel Plan for Ukraine and Russia, Courtesy of Trump Associates
    By MEGAN TWOHEY and SCOTT SHANEFEB. 19, 2017
    Continue reading the main storyShare This Page
    A week before Michael T. Flynn resigned as national security adviser, a sealed proposal was hand-delivered to his office, outlining a way for President Trump to lift sanctions against Russia.
    Mr. Flynn is gone, having been caught lying about his own discussion of sanctions with the Russian ambassador. But the proposal, a peace plan for Ukraine and Russia, remains, along with those pushing it: Michael D. Cohen, the president’s personal lawyer, who delivered the document; Felix H. Sater, a business associate who helped Mr. Trump scout deals in Russia; and a Ukrainian lawmaker trying to rise in a political opposition movement shaped in part by Mr. Trump’s former campaign manager Paul Manafort.
    At a time when Mr. Trump’s ties to Russia, and the people connected to him, are under heightened scrutiny — with investigations by American intelligence agencies, the F.B.I. and Congress — some of his associates remain willing and eager to wade into Russia-related efforts behind the scenes.
    Mr. Trump has confounded Democrats and Republicans alike with his repeated praise for the Russian president, Vladimir V. Putin, and his desire to forge an American-Russian alliance. While there is nothing illegal about such unofficial efforts, a proposal that seems to tip toward Russian interests may set off alarms.
    Donald Trump’s Connections in Ukraine
    Andrii V. Artemenko
    Ukrainian politician with a peace plan for Ukraine and a file alleging that its president is corrupt.
    Felix H. Sater
    Russian-American businessman with longstanding ties to the Trump Organization.
    Michael D. Cohen
    Mr. Trump’s personal attorney, under scrutiny from F.B.I. over links with Russia.
    Paul Manafort
    Former Trump campaign chairman with pro-Russian political ties in Ukraine, now under investigation by the F.B.I.
    The amateur diplomats say their goal is simply to help settle a grueling, three-year conflict that has cost 10,000 lives. “Who doesn’t want to help bring about peace?” Mr. Cohen asked.
    But the proposal contains more than just a peace plan. Andrii V. Artemenko, the Ukrainian lawmaker, who sees himself as a Trump-style leader of a future Ukraine, claims to have evidence — “names of companies, wire transfers” — showing corruption by the Ukrainian president, Petro O. Poroshenko, that could help oust him. And Mr. Artemenko said he had received encouragement for his plans from top aides to Mr. Putin.
    “A lot of people will call me a Russian agent, a U.S. agent, a C.I.A. agent,” Mr. Artemenko said. “But how can you find a good solution between our countries if we do not talk?”
    Mr. Cohen and Mr. Sater said they had not spoken to Mr. Trump about the proposal, and have no experience in foreign policy. Mr. Cohen is one of several Trump associates under scrutiny in an F.B.I. counterintelligence examination of links with Russia, according to law enforcement officials; he has denied any illicit connections.
    The two others involved in the effort have somewhat questionable pasts: Mr. Sater, 50, a Russian-American, pleaded guilty to a role in a stock manipulation scheme decades ago that involved the Mafia. Mr. Artemenko spent two and a half years in jail in Kiev in the early 2000s on embezzlement charges, later dropped, which he said had been politically motivated.
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    While it is unclear if the White House will take the proposal seriously, the diplomatic freelancing has infuriated Ukrainian officials. Ukraine’s ambassador to the United States, Valeriy Chaly, said Mr. Artemenko “is not entitled to present any alternative peace plans on behalf of Ukraine to any foreign government, including the U.S. administration.”
    At a security conference in Munich on Friday, Mr. Poroshenko warned the West against “appeasement” of Russia, and some American experts say offering Russia any alternative to a two-year-old international agreement on Ukraine would be a mistake. The Trump administration has sent mixed signals about the conflict in Ukraine.
    But given Mr. Trump’s praise for Mr. Putin, John Herbst, a former American ambassador to Ukraine, said he feared the new president might be too eager to mend relations with Russia at Ukraine’s expense — potentially with a plan like Mr. Artemenko’s.
    It was late January when the three men associated with the proposed plan converged on the Loews Regency, a luxury hotel on Park Avenue in Manhattan where business deals are made in a lobby furnished with leather couches, over martinis at the restaurant bar and in private conference rooms on upper floors.
    Mr. Cohen, 50, lives two blocks up the street, in Trump Park Avenue. A lawyer who joined the Trump Organization in 2007 as special counsel, he has worked on many deals, including a Trump-branded tower in the republic of Georgia and a short-lived mixed martial arts venture starring a Russian fighter. He is considered a loyal lieutenant whom Mr. Trump trusts to fix difficult problems.
    Photo
    Andrii V. Artemenko, a Ukrainian lawmaker, at the Women’s March in Washington last month. He said his peace proposal had received encouragement from top aides to Russia’s president, Vladimir V. Putin.
    The F.B.I. is reviewing an unverified dossier, compiled by a former British intelligence agent and funded by Mr. Trump’s political opponents, that claims Mr. Cohen met with a Russian representative in Prague during the presidential campaign to discuss Russia’s hacking of Democratic targets. But the Russian official named in the report told The New York Times that he had never met Mr. Cohen. Mr. Cohen insists that he has never visited Prague and that the dossier’s assertions are fabrications. (Mr. Manafort is also under investigation by the F.B.I. for his connections to Russia and Ukraine.)
    Mr. Cohen has a personal connection to Ukraine: He is married to a Ukrainian woman and once worked with relatives there to establish an ethanol business.
    Mr. Artemenko, tall and burly, arrived at the Manhattan hotel between visits to Washington. (His wife, he said, met the first lady, Melania Trump, years ago during their modeling careers, but he did not try to meet Mr. Trump.) He had attended the inauguration and visited Congress, posting on Facebook his admiration for Mr. Trump and talking up his peace plan in meetings with American lawmakers.
    He entered Parliament in 2014, the year that the former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych fled to Moscow amid protests over his economic alignment with Russia and corruption. Mr. Manafort, who had been instrumental in getting Mr. Yanukovych elected, helped shape a political bloc that sprang up to oppose the new president, Mr. Poroshenko, a wealthy businessman who has taken a far tougher stance toward Russia and accused Mr. Putin of wanting to absorb Ukraine into a new Russian Empire. Mr. Artemenko, 48, emerged from the opposition that Mr. Manafort nurtured. (The two men have never met, Mr. Artemenko said.)
    Before entering politics, Mr. Artemenko had business ventures in the Middle East and real estate deals in the Miami area, and had worked as an agent representing top Ukrainian athletes. Some colleagues in Parliament describe him as corrupt, untrustworthy or simply insignificant, but he appears to have amassed considerable wealth.
    He has fashioned himself in the image of Mr. Trump, presenting himself as Ukraine’s answer to a rising class of nationalist leaders in the West. He even traveled to Cleveland last summer for the Republican National Convention, seizing on the chance to meet with members of Mr. Trump’s campaign.
    “It’s time for new leaders, new approaches to the governance of the country, new principles and new negotiators in international politics,” he wrote on Facebook on Jan. 27. “Our time has come!”
    Mr. Artemenko said he saw in Mr. Trump an opportunity to advocate a plan for peace in Ukraine — and help advance his own political career. Essentially, his plan would require the withdrawal of all Russian forces from eastern Ukraine. Ukrainian voters would decide in a referendum whether Crimea, the Ukrainian territory seized by Russia in 2014, would be leased to Russia for a term of 50 or 100 years.
    The Ukrainian ambassador, Mr. Chaly, rejected a lease of that kind. “It is a gross violation of the Constitution,” he said in written answers to questions from The Times. “Such ideas can be pitched or pushed through only by those openly or covertly representing Russian interests.”
    The reaction suggested why Mr. Artemenko’s project also includes the dissemination of “kompromat,” or compromising material, purportedly showing that Mr. Poroshenko and his closest associates are corrupt. Only a new government, presumably one less hostile to Russia, might take up his plan.
    Mr. Sater, a longtime business associate of Mr. Trump’s with connections in Russia, was willing to help Mr. Artemenko’s proposal reach the White House.
    Mr. Trump has sought to distance himself from Mr. Sater in recent years. If Mr. Sater “were sitting in the room right now,” Mr. Trump said in a 2013 deposition, “I really wouldn’t know what he looked like.”
    But Mr. Sater worked on real estate development deals with the Trump Organization on and off for at least a decade, even after his role in the stock manipulation scheme came to light.
    Mr. Sater, who was born in the Soviet Union and grew up in New York, served as an executive at a firm called Bayrock Group, two floors below the Trump Organization in Trump Tower, and was later a senior adviser to Mr. Trump.
    He said he had been working on a plan for a Trump Tower in Moscow with a Russian real estate developer as recently as the fall of 2015, one that he said had come to a halt because of Mr. Trump’s presidential campaign. (Mr. Cohen said the Trump Organization had received a letter of intent for a project in Moscow from a Russian real estate developer at that time but determined that the project was not feasible.)
    Mr. Artemenko said a mutual friend had put him in touch with Mr. Sater. Helping to advance the proposal, Mr. Sater said, made sense.
    “I want to stop a war, number one,” he said. “Number two, I absolutely believe that the U.S. and Russia need to be allies, not enemies. If I could achieve both in one stroke, it would be a home run.”
    After speaking with Mr. Sater and Mr. Artemenko in person, Mr. Cohen said he would deliver the plan to the White House.
    Mr. Cohen said he did not know who in the Russian government had offered encouragement on it, as Mr. Artemenko claims, but he understood there was a promise of proof of corruption by the Ukrainian president.
    “Fraud is never good, right?” Mr. Cohen said.
    He said Mr. Sater had given him the written proposal in a sealed envelope. When Mr. Cohen met with Mr. Trump in the Oval Office in early February, he said, he left the proposal in Mr. Flynn’s office.
    Mr. Cohen said he was waiting for a response when Mr. Flynn was forced from his post. Now Mr. Cohen, Mr. Sater and Mr. Artemenko are hoping a new national security adviser will take up their cause. On Friday the president wrote on Twitter that he had four new candidates for the job.
    Correction: February 19, 2017
    Because of an editing error, an earlier version of this article gave an incorrect middle initial for Paul Manafort. It is J., not D.

  176. Count, is this what you wanted? I have tried to delete all the photo, comment stuff, but there may be some left in. Sorry it’s so long!
    A Back-Channel Plan for Ukraine and Russia, Courtesy of Trump Associates
    By MEGAN TWOHEY and SCOTT SHANEFEB. 19, 2017
    Continue reading the main storyShare This Page
    A week before Michael T. Flynn resigned as national security adviser, a sealed proposal was hand-delivered to his office, outlining a way for President Trump to lift sanctions against Russia.
    Mr. Flynn is gone, having been caught lying about his own discussion of sanctions with the Russian ambassador. But the proposal, a peace plan for Ukraine and Russia, remains, along with those pushing it: Michael D. Cohen, the president’s personal lawyer, who delivered the document; Felix H. Sater, a business associate who helped Mr. Trump scout deals in Russia; and a Ukrainian lawmaker trying to rise in a political opposition movement shaped in part by Mr. Trump’s former campaign manager Paul Manafort.
    At a time when Mr. Trump’s ties to Russia, and the people connected to him, are under heightened scrutiny — with investigations by American intelligence agencies, the F.B.I. and Congress — some of his associates remain willing and eager to wade into Russia-related efforts behind the scenes.
    Mr. Trump has confounded Democrats and Republicans alike with his repeated praise for the Russian president, Vladimir V. Putin, and his desire to forge an American-Russian alliance. While there is nothing illegal about such unofficial efforts, a proposal that seems to tip toward Russian interests may set off alarms.
    Donald Trump’s Connections in Ukraine
    Andrii V. Artemenko
    Ukrainian politician with a peace plan for Ukraine and a file alleging that its president is corrupt.
    Felix H. Sater
    Russian-American businessman with longstanding ties to the Trump Organization.
    Michael D. Cohen
    Mr. Trump’s personal attorney, under scrutiny from F.B.I. over links with Russia.
    Paul Manafort
    Former Trump campaign chairman with pro-Russian political ties in Ukraine, now under investigation by the F.B.I.
    The amateur diplomats say their goal is simply to help settle a grueling, three-year conflict that has cost 10,000 lives. “Who doesn’t want to help bring about peace?” Mr. Cohen asked.
    But the proposal contains more than just a peace plan. Andrii V. Artemenko, the Ukrainian lawmaker, who sees himself as a Trump-style leader of a future Ukraine, claims to have evidence — “names of companies, wire transfers” — showing corruption by the Ukrainian president, Petro O. Poroshenko, that could help oust him. And Mr. Artemenko said he had received encouragement for his plans from top aides to Mr. Putin.
    “A lot of people will call me a Russian agent, a U.S. agent, a C.I.A. agent,” Mr. Artemenko said. “But how can you find a good solution between our countries if we do not talk?”
    Mr. Cohen and Mr. Sater said they had not spoken to Mr. Trump about the proposal, and have no experience in foreign policy. Mr. Cohen is one of several Trump associates under scrutiny in an F.B.I. counterintelligence examination of links with Russia, according to law enforcement officials; he has denied any illicit connections.
    The two others involved in the effort have somewhat questionable pasts: Mr. Sater, 50, a Russian-American, pleaded guilty to a role in a stock manipulation scheme decades ago that involved the Mafia. Mr. Artemenko spent two and a half years in jail in Kiev in the early 2000s on embezzlement charges, later dropped, which he said had been politically motivated.
    Get the Morning Briefing by Email
    What you need to know to start your day, delivered to your inbox Monday through Friday.
    While it is unclear if the White House will take the proposal seriously, the diplomatic freelancing has infuriated Ukrainian officials. Ukraine’s ambassador to the United States, Valeriy Chaly, said Mr. Artemenko “is not entitled to present any alternative peace plans on behalf of Ukraine to any foreign government, including the U.S. administration.”
    At a security conference in Munich on Friday, Mr. Poroshenko warned the West against “appeasement” of Russia, and some American experts say offering Russia any alternative to a two-year-old international agreement on Ukraine would be a mistake. The Trump administration has sent mixed signals about the conflict in Ukraine.
    But given Mr. Trump’s praise for Mr. Putin, John Herbst, a former American ambassador to Ukraine, said he feared the new president might be too eager to mend relations with Russia at Ukraine’s expense — potentially with a plan like Mr. Artemenko’s.
    It was late January when the three men associated with the proposed plan converged on the Loews Regency, a luxury hotel on Park Avenue in Manhattan where business deals are made in a lobby furnished with leather couches, over martinis at the restaurant bar and in private conference rooms on upper floors.
    Mr. Cohen, 50, lives two blocks up the street, in Trump Park Avenue. A lawyer who joined the Trump Organization in 2007 as special counsel, he has worked on many deals, including a Trump-branded tower in the republic of Georgia and a short-lived mixed martial arts venture starring a Russian fighter. He is considered a loyal lieutenant whom Mr. Trump trusts to fix difficult problems.
    Photo
    Andrii V. Artemenko, a Ukrainian lawmaker, at the Women’s March in Washington last month. He said his peace proposal had received encouragement from top aides to Russia’s president, Vladimir V. Putin.
    The F.B.I. is reviewing an unverified dossier, compiled by a former British intelligence agent and funded by Mr. Trump’s political opponents, that claims Mr. Cohen met with a Russian representative in Prague during the presidential campaign to discuss Russia’s hacking of Democratic targets. But the Russian official named in the report told The New York Times that he had never met Mr. Cohen. Mr. Cohen insists that he has never visited Prague and that the dossier’s assertions are fabrications. (Mr. Manafort is also under investigation by the F.B.I. for his connections to Russia and Ukraine.)
    Mr. Cohen has a personal connection to Ukraine: He is married to a Ukrainian woman and once worked with relatives there to establish an ethanol business.
    Mr. Artemenko, tall and burly, arrived at the Manhattan hotel between visits to Washington. (His wife, he said, met the first lady, Melania Trump, years ago during their modeling careers, but he did not try to meet Mr. Trump.) He had attended the inauguration and visited Congress, posting on Facebook his admiration for Mr. Trump and talking up his peace plan in meetings with American lawmakers.
    He entered Parliament in 2014, the year that the former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych fled to Moscow amid protests over his economic alignment with Russia and corruption. Mr. Manafort, who had been instrumental in getting Mr. Yanukovych elected, helped shape a political bloc that sprang up to oppose the new president, Mr. Poroshenko, a wealthy businessman who has taken a far tougher stance toward Russia and accused Mr. Putin of wanting to absorb Ukraine into a new Russian Empire. Mr. Artemenko, 48, emerged from the opposition that Mr. Manafort nurtured. (The two men have never met, Mr. Artemenko said.)
    Before entering politics, Mr. Artemenko had business ventures in the Middle East and real estate deals in the Miami area, and had worked as an agent representing top Ukrainian athletes. Some colleagues in Parliament describe him as corrupt, untrustworthy or simply insignificant, but he appears to have amassed considerable wealth.
    He has fashioned himself in the image of Mr. Trump, presenting himself as Ukraine’s answer to a rising class of nationalist leaders in the West. He even traveled to Cleveland last summer for the Republican National Convention, seizing on the chance to meet with members of Mr. Trump’s campaign.
    “It’s time for new leaders, new approaches to the governance of the country, new principles and new negotiators in international politics,” he wrote on Facebook on Jan. 27. “Our time has come!”
    Mr. Artemenko said he saw in Mr. Trump an opportunity to advocate a plan for peace in Ukraine — and help advance his own political career. Essentially, his plan would require the withdrawal of all Russian forces from eastern Ukraine. Ukrainian voters would decide in a referendum whether Crimea, the Ukrainian territory seized by Russia in 2014, would be leased to Russia for a term of 50 or 100 years.
    The Ukrainian ambassador, Mr. Chaly, rejected a lease of that kind. “It is a gross violation of the Constitution,” he said in written answers to questions from The Times. “Such ideas can be pitched or pushed through only by those openly or covertly representing Russian interests.”
    The reaction suggested why Mr. Artemenko’s project also includes the dissemination of “kompromat,” or compromising material, purportedly showing that Mr. Poroshenko and his closest associates are corrupt. Only a new government, presumably one less hostile to Russia, might take up his plan.
    Mr. Sater, a longtime business associate of Mr. Trump’s with connections in Russia, was willing to help Mr. Artemenko’s proposal reach the White House.
    Mr. Trump has sought to distance himself from Mr. Sater in recent years. If Mr. Sater “were sitting in the room right now,” Mr. Trump said in a 2013 deposition, “I really wouldn’t know what he looked like.”
    But Mr. Sater worked on real estate development deals with the Trump Organization on and off for at least a decade, even after his role in the stock manipulation scheme came to light.
    Mr. Sater, who was born in the Soviet Union and grew up in New York, served as an executive at a firm called Bayrock Group, two floors below the Trump Organization in Trump Tower, and was later a senior adviser to Mr. Trump.
    He said he had been working on a plan for a Trump Tower in Moscow with a Russian real estate developer as recently as the fall of 2015, one that he said had come to a halt because of Mr. Trump’s presidential campaign. (Mr. Cohen said the Trump Organization had received a letter of intent for a project in Moscow from a Russian real estate developer at that time but determined that the project was not feasible.)
    Mr. Artemenko said a mutual friend had put him in touch with Mr. Sater. Helping to advance the proposal, Mr. Sater said, made sense.
    “I want to stop a war, number one,” he said. “Number two, I absolutely believe that the U.S. and Russia need to be allies, not enemies. If I could achieve both in one stroke, it would be a home run.”
    After speaking with Mr. Sater and Mr. Artemenko in person, Mr. Cohen said he would deliver the plan to the White House.
    Mr. Cohen said he did not know who in the Russian government had offered encouragement on it, as Mr. Artemenko claims, but he understood there was a promise of proof of corruption by the Ukrainian president.
    “Fraud is never good, right?” Mr. Cohen said.
    He said Mr. Sater had given him the written proposal in a sealed envelope. When Mr. Cohen met with Mr. Trump in the Oval Office in early February, he said, he left the proposal in Mr. Flynn’s office.
    Mr. Cohen said he was waiting for a response when Mr. Flynn was forced from his post. Now Mr. Cohen, Mr. Sater and Mr. Artemenko are hoping a new national security adviser will take up their cause. On Friday the president wrote on Twitter that he had four new candidates for the job.
    Correction: February 19, 2017
    Because of an editing error, an earlier version of this article gave an incorrect middle initial for Paul Manafort. It is J., not D.

  177. the essence of the criticism I had of the Clintons that they used the office to get rich(er)
    I thought that the criticism of the Clintons was that they used the fact that he had been in office, after Bill Clinton had left the Presidency, to get rich. Which, no argument, they did. If there was a suggestion that they were making money off of being in office, I must have missed it. (And I’m having trouble imagining that his doing so would have somehow been omitted from the Bill of Impeachment.)

  178. the essence of the criticism I had of the Clintons that they used the office to get rich(er)
    I thought that the criticism of the Clintons was that they used the fact that he had been in office, after Bill Clinton had left the Presidency, to get rich. Which, no argument, they did. If there was a suggestion that they were making money off of being in office, I must have missed it. (And I’m having trouble imagining that his doing so would have somehow been omitted from the Bill of Impeachment.)

  179. I am sure Washington and Jefferson didn’t sell their farms.
    Carter did.
    Every president in the modern period has divested himself of financial holdings to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest.
    Even freaking Dick Cheney donated the profits from his Halliburton options to charity.
    If you can’t put yourself in the position of not having conflicts of interest, you shouldn’t take the job. It’s part of the gig. Always has been.
    Unbelievable that this is even a topic for discussion.

  180. I am sure Washington and Jefferson didn’t sell their farms.
    Carter did.
    Every president in the modern period has divested himself of financial holdings to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest.
    Even freaking Dick Cheney donated the profits from his Halliburton options to charity.
    If you can’t put yourself in the position of not having conflicts of interest, you shouldn’t take the job. It’s part of the gig. Always has been.
    Unbelievable that this is even a topic for discussion.

  183. I know Marty understands the concept of conflicts of interests, even though he’s acting like he doesn’t. Obama made a lot of money selling books, which is okay, even while in office. The Clintons, like just about every former First Couple you can think of, made money off their names once they left office. (They just didn’t deserve it because they weren’t born into money like, say, GWB.)
    You can pretend Trump is doing nothing different from presidents that came before him, but you necessarily will be pretending.
    Like russell said, if you can’t do the things necessary to be president, don’t fncking run for president. No one forced this on the guy.

  184. I know Marty understands the concept of conflicts of interests, even though he’s acting like he doesn’t. Obama made a lot of money selling books, which is okay, even while in office. The Clintons, like just about every former First Couple you can think of, made money off their names once they left office. (They just didn’t deserve it because they weren’t born into money like, say, GWB.)
    You can pretend Trump is doing nothing different from presidents that came before him, but you necessarily will be pretending.
    Like russell said, if you can’t do the things necessary to be president, don’t fncking run for president. No one forced this on the guy.

  187. Marty, I’m very well aware (as is now everyone, for the first time ever) that it is not a legal requirement to release tax returns. Plus, I’m also aware that no breach of the Emoluments Clause has yet been charged. I’m also aware, and others have touched on it, that you long reiterated assertions of HRC’s “ongoing criminal career” with not one piece of evidence compared to the current prima facie case against Trump. Not happy about Mar-a-Lago, eh? After joining fees were doubled in January, when he was President-elect, and the value added was members being able to see POTUS, the premier of Japan and aides dealing with a real-life North Vietnamese missile launch situation, your tentative worry about “the Winter White House” would be adorable if it wasn’t so obviously partisan. Look within, Marty, if I may presume to offer you advice.

  188. Marty, I’m very well aware (as is now everyone, for the first time ever) that it is not a legal requirement to release tax returns. Plus, I’m also aware that no breach of the Emoluments Clause has yet been charged. I’m also aware, and others have touched on it, that you long reiterated assertions of HRC’s “ongoing criminal career” with not one piece of evidence compared to the current prima facie case against Trump. Not happy about Mar-a-Lago, eh? After joining fees were doubled in January, when he was President-elect, and the value added was members being able to see POTUS, the premier of Japan and aides dealing with a real-life North Vietnamese missile launch situation, your tentative worry about “the Winter White House” would be adorable if it wasn’t so obviously partisan. Look within, Marty, if I may presume to offer you advice.

  191. All fascinating:
    http://fencingbearatprayer.blogspot.com/2017/02/bully-culture.html
    via Rod Dreher, who finds himself between a rock and a hard place. The culture disappoints him at every turn.
    The author writes, while putting Milo on a pedestal so she can look up his toga:
    “Because he had been abused as a young teen-ager and would not swallow the lies.’
    No, I think CPAC dis-invited him because of something else he was made to swallow as an underage minor kid, but he’d run out of things to be flamboyant about, such as bullying and threatening women on the internet (which is what the protestors at Berkeley were angry about, among other things), so he thought he’d brag about being made to eat the body of someone not named Christ, and then bragged further that HE was the aggressor and jail bait (a Way Too Young Republican), because there are books to sell and grifters and griftees to be grifted, not that there is anything wrong with any of that among consenting adults.
    Regnery must have a place for him in their publishing empire.
    But see, now Yiannoshutupyourpuss has accomplished the alt-Right agenda. He’s gone down on both Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, and neither likes it, at least in public. So, Bannon, who wants to burn it all down, both sides as well, should be offering Milo a seat on the National Security Council soon.
    I do admire that Milo speaks my language.
    English.

  192. All fascinating:
    http://fencingbearatprayer.blogspot.com/2017/02/bully-culture.html
    via Rod Dreher, who finds himself between a rock and a hard place. The culture disappoints him at every turn.
    The author writes, while putting Milo on a pedestal so she can look up his toga:
    “Because he had been abused as a young teen-ager and would not swallow the lies.’
    No, I think CPAC dis-invited him because of something else he was made to swallow as an underage minor kid, but he’d run out of things to be flamboyant about, such as bullying and threatening women on the internet (which is what the protestors at Berkeley were angry about, among other things), so he thought he’d brag about being made to eat the body of someone not named Christ, and then bragged further that HE was the aggressor and jail bait (a Way Too Young Republican), because there are books to sell and grifters and griftees to be grifted, not that there is anything wrong with any of that among consenting adults.
    Regnery must have a place for him in their publishing empire.
    But see, now Yiannoshutupyourpuss has accomplished the alt-Right agenda. He’s gone down on both Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, and neither likes it, at least in public. So, Bannon, who wants to burn it all down, both sides as well, should be offering Milo a seat on the National Security Council soon.
    I do admire that Milo speaks my language.
    English.

  193. “if you can’t do the things necessary to be president, don’t fncking run for president. No one forced this on the guy.”
    Like being in the business of making and selling wedding cakes, and being FORCED to sell to Teh Geys?
    I think I’m picking up a common thread here. Of derp, but still.
    Now Congress just needs to pass a Religious Grifting Freedum Act to let Trump be Trump. I hear Pence has some experience in this area.

  194. “if you can’t do the things necessary to be president, don’t fncking run for president. No one forced this on the guy.”
    Like being in the business of making and selling wedding cakes, and being FORCED to sell to Teh Geys?
    I think I’m picking up a common thread here. Of derp, but still.
    Now Congress just needs to pass a Religious Grifting Freedum Act to let Trump be Trump. I hear Pence has some experience in this area.

  195. “I am sure Washington and Jefferson didn’t sell their farms.”
    Nor their slaves.
    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-dark-side-of-thomas-jefferson-35976004/
    Washington freed his slaves, but only after Martha’s death, though Martha got the jump on that, it is recorded, before she died, fearing that some of her slaves might move her deadline forward to reach freedom sooner.
    Yes, I realize that we shouldn’t judge these figures by the standards of our enlightened times, but the next thing you know Scalia and Gorsuch and company are invoking their names to judge us, and we mayn’t diverge, so fair is fair.
    I take the Smithsonian stuff with a grain of salt, because the place is staffed by experts who live near an ocean.

  196. “I am sure Washington and Jefferson didn’t sell their farms.”
    Nor their slaves.
    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-dark-side-of-thomas-jefferson-35976004/
    Washington freed his slaves, but only after Martha’s death, though Martha got the jump on that, it is recorded, before she died, fearing that some of her slaves might move her deadline forward to reach freedom sooner.
    Yes, I realize that we shouldn’t judge these figures by the standards of our enlightened times, but the next thing you know Scalia and Gorsuch and company are invoking their names to judge us, and we mayn’t diverge, so fair is fair.
    I take the Smithsonian stuff with a grain of salt, because the place is staffed by experts who live near an ocean.

  197. Count, just clean your cookies and you’re good to go again with the NYT and WaPo. (though I have to say they’re doing such good work at the moment for the first time in years that they might be worthy of support. I have subscribed to the New Yorker recently, because their coverage is extremely good and thoughtful and it’s dirt cheap).
    For some people Trump will actually have to shoot somebody on 5th Avenue until they admit that this is a catastrophe – these people seem to be of a very tolerant and forgiving nature, which is generally speaking admirable – the trouble is they don’t seem to have any values at all.

  198. Count, just clean your cookies and you’re good to go again with the NYT and WaPo. (though I have to say they’re doing such good work at the moment for the first time in years that they might be worthy of support. I have subscribed to the New Yorker recently, because their coverage is extremely good and thoughtful and it’s dirt cheap).
    For some people Trump will actually have to shoot somebody on 5th Avenue until they admit that this is a catastrophe – these people seem to be of a very tolerant and forgiving nature, which is generally speaking admirable – the trouble is they don’t seem to have any values at all.

  199. Or just open a private browsing window on whatever browser you use. You’ll have to paste the URL in, is all.

  200. Or just open a private browsing window on whatever browser you use. You’ll have to paste the URL in, is all.

  203. Nice work, GFTNC. Thanks.
    Agree. But did you notice that article had not ONE fact in it? NOT ONE!!!!!!!!!!
    /snark.
    You know what got Watergate off the ground? A couple of young reporters bamboozling their editor with “anonymous sources”….AND THIS WENT ON FOR MONTHS!!!
    NO FACTS…..(other than a penny ante break-in).
    You don’t believe it? Look it up!
    And Marty, Trump is currently in egregious violation of the lease with the GSA for Tramp Acres in D.C.

  204. Nice work, GFTNC. Thanks.
    Agree. But did you notice that article had not ONE fact in it? NOT ONE!!!!!!!!!!
    /snark.
    You know what got Watergate off the ground? A couple of young reporters bamboozling their editor with “anonymous sources”….AND THIS WENT ON FOR MONTHS!!!
    NO FACTS…..(other than a penny ante break-in).
    You don’t believe it? Look it up!
    And Marty, Trump is currently in egregious violation of the lease with the GSA for Tramp Acres in D.C.

  205. But I understand that my usual blend of British sarcasm, provocation and gallows humor might have come across as flippancy, a lack of care for other victims or, worse, “advocacy.”
    Oh Milo, nice try, but even to the British it was unmistakeable that you were *actually* displaying flippancy, a lack of care for other victims (understatement of the year) or, (much) worse, “advocacy”.

  206. But I understand that my usual blend of British sarcasm, provocation and gallows humor might have come across as flippancy, a lack of care for other victims or, worse, “advocacy.”
    Oh Milo, nice try, but even to the British it was unmistakeable that you were *actually* displaying flippancy, a lack of care for other victims (understatement of the year) or, (much) worse, “advocacy”.

  207. the fact that he doesn’t have all the government filled in is as much due to the Democrats obstruction of his appointments as any incompetence on his part.
    As wj pointed out, this is not even remotely true. Many of the assistant secretaries, etc., have not even been named or appointed….so how did the Dems “obstruct” that? Amazing stuff if true, but if they had those kinds of powers, they certainly would not have lost the election. Would you not agree?

  208. the fact that he doesn’t have all the government filled in is as much due to the Democrats obstruction of his appointments as any incompetence on his part.
    As wj pointed out, this is not even remotely true. Many of the assistant secretaries, etc., have not even been named or appointed….so how did the Dems “obstruct” that? Amazing stuff if true, but if they had those kinds of powers, they certainly would not have lost the election. Would you not agree?

  209. Yes, I realize that we shouldn’t judge these figures by the standards of our enlightened times, …
    Not only being products of their times, they were also bound by the social and legal expectations of their times.
    At the time the Declaration of Independence was written, 86 landholders owned about two-thirds of the state of Virginia. The law required that eldest sons were first in line to inherit and holdings couldn’t be broken up into smaller partials.
    As to freeing slaves, what prevented freed slaves being treated as unclaimed/abandoned property to be kidnapped back into slavery?

  210. Yes, I realize that we shouldn’t judge these figures by the standards of our enlightened times, …
    Not only being products of their times, they were also bound by the social and legal expectations of their times.
    At the time the Declaration of Independence was written, 86 landholders owned about two-thirds of the state of Virginia. The law required that eldest sons were first in line to inherit and holdings couldn’t be broken up into smaller partials.
    As to freeing slaves, what prevented freed slaves being treated as unclaimed/abandoned property to be kidnapped back into slavery?

  211. just clean your cookies and you’re good to go again with the NYT and WaPo
    With WaPo lately, I sometimes find I have to clear my browser history as well. Inconvenient, but it does the trick.

  212. just clean your cookies and you’re good to go again with the NYT and WaPo
    With WaPo lately, I sometimes find I have to clear my browser history as well. Inconvenient, but it does the trick.

  213. this is not even remotely true. Many of the assistant secretaries, etc., have not even been named or appointed
    As I dig a little deeper, it seems that part of the problem is this. In past administrations, the assistant secretaries, etc. from the previous administration stayed around until their successors were approved. And then a little longer, to help get them up to speed. That way, the work kept getting done while the changeover happened.
    But this time around, all those assistant secretaries, etc. were told that their services were no longer required. Before anyone was in place (or, often, even nominated) to replace them. So what we have is gaping holes in the management structure, and nobody there to train the new guys, even once they arrive.

  214. this is not even remotely true. Many of the assistant secretaries, etc., have not even been named or appointed
    As I dig a little deeper, it seems that part of the problem is this. In past administrations, the assistant secretaries, etc. from the previous administration stayed around until their successors were approved. And then a little longer, to help get them up to speed. That way, the work kept getting done while the changeover happened.
    But this time around, all those assistant secretaries, etc. were told that their services were no longer required. Before anyone was in place (or, often, even nominated) to replace them. So what we have is gaping holes in the management structure, and nobody there to train the new guys, even once they arrive.

  219. Isn’t being nagged by some Obama administration holdover about how tweeting from your favorite Samsung phone is “insecure” pretty much in the same category as other “fake news”? Just stuff that you don’t want to hear and don’t want to be true. So why not get rid of the irritating little git?

  220. Isn’t being nagged by some Obama administration holdover about how tweeting from your favorite Samsung phone is “insecure” pretty much in the same category as other “fake news”? Just stuff that you don’t want to hear and don’t want to be true. So why not get rid of the irritating little git?

  221. GFTNC, have you finished reading the Medium piece on 4chan you linked the other day?
    It seems the “We can say whatever we want” thing isn’t working out for Milo, well beyond the CPAC disinvitation.

  222. GFTNC, have you finished reading the Medium piece on 4chan you linked the other day?
    It seems the “We can say whatever we want” thing isn’t working out for Milo, well beyond the CPAC disinvitation.

  225. Oh, I see the Count beat me to it. I thought his link was just about the canceled book deal, not his Breitbart departure. But, hey, good news is worth reading about twice, right?

  226. Oh, I see the Count beat me to it. I thought his link was just about the canceled book deal, not his Breitbart departure. But, hey, good news is worth reading about twice, right?

  227. Jesus Christ, ral, I thought you were joking! But when I looked it up, there it was in black and white, albeit ” informal cybersecurity adviser”. Going for serious expertise in this important matter I see.

  228. Jesus Christ, ral, I thought you were joking! But when I looked it up, there it was in black and white, albeit ” informal cybersecurity adviser”. Going for serious expertise in this important matter I see.

  229. hsh, yes I finished it. Well, as Obama apparently told Trump, reality has a way of asserting itself. Just not quickly enough, I’d say.

  230. hsh, yes I finished it. Well, as Obama apparently told Trump, reality has a way of asserting itself. Just not quickly enough, I’d say.

  231. …just clean your cookies and you’re good to go again with the NYT and WaPo.
    how do you do that? if it doesn’t appear on a drop down menu, I tend to start drinking and cursing.

  232. …just clean your cookies and you’re good to go again with the NYT and WaPo.
    how do you do that? if it doesn’t appear on a drop down menu, I tend to start drinking and cursing.

  235. As to freeing slaves, what prevented freed slaves being treated as unclaimed/abandoned property to be kidnapped back into slavery?
    Laws.
    In Virginia, the mechanics of manumission required that it be done by deed or will, and those instruments would have been recorded in the courthouse. After 1806, anyone emancipated by their owner was required to leave the state, unless they had permission to stay, or they could be reenslaved. People who had been enslaved who were allowed to be in the state had to register.
    Some interesting history is here.

  236. As to freeing slaves, what prevented freed slaves being treated as unclaimed/abandoned property to be kidnapped back into slavery?
    Laws.
    In Virginia, the mechanics of manumission required that it be done by deed or will, and those instruments would have been recorded in the courthouse. After 1806, anyone emancipated by their owner was required to leave the state, unless they had permission to stay, or they could be reenslaved. People who had been enslaved who were allowed to be in the state had to register.
    Some interesting history is here.

  237. how do you do that?
    If you use Firefox:
    Click on the 3 bars at the upper right for the menu and select “Options”.
    From the list on the left, click on “Privacy”.
    On the right, about 2/3 of the way down, click on “Show Cookies”.
    You can either highlight them one by one and remove, or click the “Remove All” button.
    If you use Chrome:
    In the upper right, click on the 3 little (vertical) dots.
    Select “Settings” from the drop-down list.
    At the bottom, click on “Show Advanced Settings”.
    Under Privacy, click on “Clear Browser Data”.
    In the pop-up window, check the boxes for Cookies.
    Click on “Clear Browser Data”
    If you use Internet Explorer. Don’t.
    Hope that helps.

  238. how do you do that?
    If you use Firefox:
    Click on the 3 bars at the upper right for the menu and select “Options”.
    From the list on the left, click on “Privacy”.
    On the right, about 2/3 of the way down, click on “Show Cookies”.
    You can either highlight them one by one and remove, or click the “Remove All” button.
    If you use Chrome:
    In the upper right, click on the 3 little (vertical) dots.
    Select “Settings” from the drop-down list.
    At the bottom, click on “Show Advanced Settings”.
    Under Privacy, click on “Clear Browser Data”.
    In the pop-up window, check the boxes for Cookies.
    Click on “Clear Browser Data”
    If you use Internet Explorer. Don’t.
    Hope that helps.

  241. How many US citizens are going to be deported under Trump’s new immigration policies? How many is “ok” if you support the new policies?

  242. How many US citizens are going to be deported under Trump’s new immigration policies? How many is “ok” if you support the new policies?

  243. sapient, thanks for the link.
    Though I suspect more than a few free persons were illegally kidnapped into slavery.

  244. sapient, thanks for the link.
    Though I suspect more than a few free persons were illegally kidnapped into slavery.

  249. Though I suspect more than a few free persons were illegally kidnapped into slavery.
    Yes, in fact there were some cases about that. More later.

  250. Though I suspect more than a few free persons were illegally kidnapped into slavery.
    Yes, in fact there were some cases about that. More later.

  259. Regarding slavery, since it is Black History Month, a lot of heartbreaking stuff is in this old book, A Practical Treatise on the Law of Slavery, by Jacob D. Wheeler, Esq., copyright 1837, a handbook for lawyers who needed to handle such cases.
    The next time I hear someone say that we need to quit thinking about “identity politics”, which I heard recently at a meeting of “progressives” in my town, I’m going to think about this treatise.
    I’m also going to think about the Jewish cemeteries.
    I’m also going to think about the defunding of Planned Parenthood.
    I’m also going to think about the ethnic cleansing that is being planned by Trump’s DHS, as exhibited by today’s deportation rules. Deportation from “the Homeland”.
    I promised LJ that I would practice anger management, so I’m done for now, maybe going to look at the greater Universe.

  260. Regarding slavery, since it is Black History Month, a lot of heartbreaking stuff is in this old book, A Practical Treatise on the Law of Slavery, by Jacob D. Wheeler, Esq., copyright 1837, a handbook for lawyers who needed to handle such cases.
    The next time I hear someone say that we need to quit thinking about “identity politics”, which I heard recently at a meeting of “progressives” in my town, I’m going to think about this treatise.
    I’m also going to think about the Jewish cemeteries.
    I’m also going to think about the defunding of Planned Parenthood.
    I’m also going to think about the ethnic cleansing that is being planned by Trump’s DHS, as exhibited by today’s deportation rules. Deportation from “the Homeland”.
    I promised LJ that I would practice anger management, so I’m done for now, maybe going to look at the greater Universe.

  261. The book I cited before, the handbook for lawyers handling slave cases, contains very old case law. If you take a look, you should know that during the 19th century, there was a lot of prefatory material before a reader could discern what the case actually held.
    When I have some time, maybe I’ll make a project of summarizing the cases in this old book. It’s an eye-opening view into what life was like in those good-ole-days.
    I’m 60. My great grandparents were born before the Civil War, when this book would have been handy. I didn’t know my great-grandparents, but lots of people now do. This is not ancient history.
    Most people here probably know this. I know this. But it seems awfully immediate right now.

  262. The book I cited before, the handbook for lawyers handling slave cases, contains very old case law. If you take a look, you should know that during the 19th century, there was a lot of prefatory material before a reader could discern what the case actually held.
    When I have some time, maybe I’ll make a project of summarizing the cases in this old book. It’s an eye-opening view into what life was like in those good-ole-days.
    I’m 60. My great grandparents were born before the Civil War, when this book would have been handy. I didn’t know my great-grandparents, but lots of people now do. This is not ancient history.
    Most people here probably know this. I know this. But it seems awfully immediate right now.

  263. Also in other news, last Friday marked the passing of the great Clyde Stubblefield, one of the drummers in James Brown’s first great band.
    Stubblefield is the drummer on Brown’s “The Funky Drummer”, one of the two most widely sampled drum breaks ever (the other being The Winston’s “Amen Brother”). It’s fair to say that he was one of the inventors of funk as an American musical style.
    He was a very well loved cat. RIP Mr Stubblefield.
    The Funky Drummer, Clyde’s break starts about 5:20.

  264. Also in other news, last Friday marked the passing of the great Clyde Stubblefield, one of the drummers in James Brown’s first great band.
    Stubblefield is the drummer on Brown’s “The Funky Drummer”, one of the two most widely sampled drum breaks ever (the other being The Winston’s “Amen Brother”). It’s fair to say that he was one of the inventors of funk as an American musical style.
    He was a very well loved cat. RIP Mr Stubblefield.
    The Funky Drummer, Clyde’s break starts about 5:20.

  265. “Tronald Dump is a shining wit,” the Reverend Spooner might have stammered after watching He, Trump’s infamous press conference.
    Despite his professed distaste for that vulgar charlatan, our friend Marty seems determined to rationalize He, Trump’s whining. I can only imagine what Marty would be saying if he had actually voted for Him.
    Until Rush Limbaugh reports that he has seen hi-def video on Breitbart showing Putin handing He, Trump a briefcase full of neatly banded hundred-dollar bills with non-consecutive serial numbers, there will be people denouncing The Left and The Press for having “fact-free” suspicions about the Tribune of the White Working Class. And maybe not even then.
    It’s time to consider a two-state solution. Not for the Middle East. For the bit of North America that lies between Mexico and Canada — one land inhabited by two distinct populations.
    A key ingredient of constitutional democracy is protection of the minority from a tyranny of the majority. That’s what allows distinct populations to live, peacefully intermingled, under a single national government. The constitution of the US is explicitly designed to permit a tyranny by the minority. “Permit” does not mean “require”, but the minority has been awfully uppity this millennium. That’s a recipe for trouble.
    –TP

  266. “Tronald Dump is a shining wit,” the Reverend Spooner might have stammered after watching He, Trump’s infamous press conference.
    Despite his professed distaste for that vulgar charlatan, our friend Marty seems determined to rationalize He, Trump’s whining. I can only imagine what Marty would be saying if he had actually voted for Him.
    Until Rush Limbaugh reports that he has seen hi-def video on Breitbart showing Putin handing He, Trump a briefcase full of neatly banded hundred-dollar bills with non-consecutive serial numbers, there will be people denouncing The Left and The Press for having “fact-free” suspicions about the Tribune of the White Working Class. And maybe not even then.
    It’s time to consider a two-state solution. Not for the Middle East. For the bit of North America that lies between Mexico and Canada — one land inhabited by two distinct populations.
    A key ingredient of constitutional democracy is protection of the minority from a tyranny of the majority. That’s what allows distinct populations to live, peacefully intermingled, under a single national government. The constitution of the US is explicitly designed to permit a tyranny by the minority. “Permit” does not mean “require”, but the minority has been awfully uppity this millennium. That’s a recipe for trouble.
    –TP

  267. The whole immigration thing is getting particularly high profile around here. Simply because the crops are planted, and if the (mostly illegal) immigrant farm workers aren’t available, a lot of farmers are looking at big losses when the crops don’t get harvested.
    But I see that there are other places that there can be an impact. Consider how many Latin American baseball players there are in the majors. If the administration is, as rumor has it, going to sometimes ignore green cards when deporting people . . . well, I guess there will be increased opportunities for American ball players.
    And, it turns out, there are some major league players who don’t even have green cards. Even when they have been playing here for years.
    http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02/21/as-aussie-immigrant-on-trumps-plan-scary-from-any-point-of-view/
    (Of course, being Australian rather than Hispanic, he is unlikely to get carded. Or was, until this hit the papers.)

  268. The whole immigration thing is getting particularly high profile around here. Simply because the crops are planted, and if the (mostly illegal) immigrant farm workers aren’t available, a lot of farmers are looking at big losses when the crops don’t get harvested.
    But I see that there are other places that there can be an impact. Consider how many Latin American baseball players there are in the majors. If the administration is, as rumor has it, going to sometimes ignore green cards when deporting people . . . well, I guess there will be increased opportunities for American ball players.
    And, it turns out, there are some major league players who don’t even have green cards. Even when they have been playing here for years.
    http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02/21/as-aussie-immigrant-on-trumps-plan-scary-from-any-point-of-view/
    (Of course, being Australian rather than Hispanic, he is unlikely to get carded. Or was, until this hit the papers.)

  269. Has anyone seen the Count in the same room with an Iowa pig farmer?
    Peterson told Grassley on Tuesday, “Over 20 million will lose coverage. And with all due respect, sir, you’re the man that talked about the death panels. We’re going to create one great big death panel in this country [because of the fact] that people can’t afford to get insurance.”

  270. Has anyone seen the Count in the same room with an Iowa pig farmer?
    Peterson told Grassley on Tuesday, “Over 20 million will lose coverage. And with all due respect, sir, you’re the man that talked about the death panels. We’re going to create one great big death panel in this country [because of the fact] that people can’t afford to get insurance.”

  271. With reference to the new slogan under the Washington Post’s masthead:

    Democracy Dies in Darkness

    I couldn’t help thinking about this, which I read in Alan Bennett’s latest volume of diaries. It is irresistibly reminiscent of the kind of Republican sloganeering which, more than ironically, makes such an absurd fetish of the word “freedom”. It’s Tennyson on the French Revolution:

    Freedom, free to slay herself, and dying while they shout her name.

    To quote the late American poet William Matthews, who was quoting Dante:

    And I have told you this to make you grieve.

  272. With reference to the new slogan under the Washington Post’s masthead:

    Democracy Dies in Darkness

    I couldn’t help thinking about this, which I read in Alan Bennett’s latest volume of diaries. It is irresistibly reminiscent of the kind of Republican sloganeering which, more than ironically, makes such an absurd fetish of the word “freedom”. It’s Tennyson on the French Revolution:

    Freedom, free to slay herself, and dying while they shout her name.

    To quote the late American poet William Matthews, who was quoting Dante:

    And I have told you this to make you grieve.

  277. HSH, I particularly liked the Trump tweet included in your link. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but it had a familiar, comforting sound to it…

  278. HSH, I particularly liked the Trump tweet included in your link. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but it had a familiar, comforting sound to it…

  279. I particularly liked the Trump tweet included in your link
    At least he’s backed off from the “They’re all paid!” BS.

  280. I particularly liked the Trump tweet included in your link
    At least he’s backed off from the “They’re all paid!” BS.

  283. Neatly making my point for me, the current main headline in the Huffington Post:

    Ryan’s Word for Gutting Healthcare: Freedom!

    (meanwhile, she lies dying while they call her name)

  284. Neatly making my point for me, the current main headline in the Huffington Post:

    Ryan’s Word for Gutting Healthcare: Freedom!

    (meanwhile, she lies dying while they call her name)

  285. It seems that Ryan is a little vague on the principle that:
    “Your freedom to wave your hand around ends at my nose.”
    Of course, that view is also anathema to anyone in the NRA.

  286. It seems that Ryan is a little vague on the principle that:
    “Your freedom to wave your hand around ends at my nose.”
    Of course, that view is also anathema to anyone in the NRA.

  287. Ryan’s Word for Gutting Healthcare: Freedom!
    Enjoy every minute of your freedom to wait in the ER.
    The chairs are not too uncomfortable, and there’s always Fox on the TV. If you’re actually dying, you may even go to the head of the line.
    The thing that makes me actually want to kick Ryan in the nuts is the fact that he got SS survivor benefits when his old man died.
    Fine for him, the rest of you can go piss up a rope.
    The road to hell is paved with copies of “The Fountainhead”.

  288. Ryan’s Word for Gutting Healthcare: Freedom!
    Enjoy every minute of your freedom to wait in the ER.
    The chairs are not too uncomfortable, and there’s always Fox on the TV. If you’re actually dying, you may even go to the head of the line.
    The thing that makes me actually want to kick Ryan in the nuts is the fact that he got SS survivor benefits when his old man died.
    Fine for him, the rest of you can go piss up a rope.
    The road to hell is paved with copies of “The Fountainhead”.

  293. ”I have a beautiful little Smith & Wesson, 9 millimeter, and it goes with me virtually everywhere. But I do believe in the right to carry, and I believe in the right to defend myself and my family—whether it’s from an intruder, or whether it’s from the government, should they decide that my rights are no longer important.”
    Jodie Ernst, 2014, threatening second amendment solutions against government
    Jodie Ernst, 2017, herself now gummint, the chickensh*t conservative c*nt (trumpers set the tone; I’m just memorizing the words), flees first amendment suggestions from those armed only with words:
    https://boingboing.net/2017/02/22/chickenshit.html
    We’re hearing more of the old bullsh*t bout them “outside agitators” attending townhall meetings, as we did from Nixonian racist authoritarians and racist southern Democratic sheriffs and filth, soon after to become conservative Republican filth, during the 1950s, 1960s, and early 1970s.
    Ya know, them outside darkies, like Martin Luther King and John Lewis.
    Josh Chaffetz, self-appointed republican d*ck conservative bully, feels threatened and bullied. He’s only had a taste of what’s coming, as has Ernst.

  294. ”I have a beautiful little Smith & Wesson, 9 millimeter, and it goes with me virtually everywhere. But I do believe in the right to carry, and I believe in the right to defend myself and my family—whether it’s from an intruder, or whether it’s from the government, should they decide that my rights are no longer important.”
    Jodie Ernst, 2014, threatening second amendment solutions against government
    Jodie Ernst, 2017, herself now gummint, the chickensh*t conservative c*nt (trumpers set the tone; I’m just memorizing the words), flees first amendment suggestions from those armed only with words:
    https://boingboing.net/2017/02/22/chickenshit.html
    We’re hearing more of the old bullsh*t bout them “outside agitators” attending townhall meetings, as we did from Nixonian racist authoritarians and racist southern Democratic sheriffs and filth, soon after to become conservative Republican filth, during the 1950s, 1960s, and early 1970s.
    Ya know, them outside darkies, like Martin Luther King and John Lewis.
    Josh Chaffetz, self-appointed republican d*ck conservative bully, feels threatened and bullied. He’s only had a taste of what’s coming, as has Ernst.

  295. From Joni Ernst’s Statement on Pruitt Confirmation

    In a private meeting and before the Environment and Public Works Committee, I received assurances from Mr. Pruitt that when it comes to the RFS, he will enforce the law as written by Congress, and not undermine the RFS. [italics mine]

    From the Tiger and the Brahmin

    “I give you assurances,” cried the tiger. “I shan’t eat you if you let me out of the cage. I shall repay your kindness with gratitude. I swear to Vishnu that I won’t eat you.”

    This comes to mind whenever I hear about assurances.

  296. From Joni Ernst’s Statement on Pruitt Confirmation

    In a private meeting and before the Environment and Public Works Committee, I received assurances from Mr. Pruitt that when it comes to the RFS, he will enforce the law as written by Congress, and not undermine the RFS. [italics mine]

    From the Tiger and the Brahmin

    “I give you assurances,” cried the tiger. “I shan’t eat you if you let me out of the cage. I shall repay your kindness with gratitude. I swear to Vishnu that I won’t eat you.”

    This comes to mind whenever I hear about assurances.

  297. Oh, I see I left out

    [I]… question[ed] Mr. Pruitt over many issues of great importance to Iowans, including scrapping the Waters of the United States rule, promoting our state’s wind energy industry, and upholding the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) in accordance with congressional intent.

    You get the idea I’m sure.

  298. Oh, I see I left out

    [I]… question[ed] Mr. Pruitt over many issues of great importance to Iowans, including scrapping the Waters of the United States rule, promoting our state’s wind energy industry, and upholding the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) in accordance with congressional intent.

    You get the idea I’m sure.

  299. The idea being, we hate government regulations . . . except when we benefit from them. Likewise we dislike all that environmental nonsense . . . except the parts that directly benefit the Iowa economy.
    Hardly surprising. The country is full of people with similar views. Especially when it comes to their MediCare.

  300. The idea being, we hate government regulations . . . except when we benefit from them. Likewise we dislike all that environmental nonsense . . . except the parts that directly benefit the Iowa economy.
    Hardly surprising. The country is full of people with similar views. Especially when it comes to their MediCare.

  301. I’m semi-surprised to hear somebody in IA complaining about the Waters of the US stuff. Most agricultural state folks I’ve seen quoted hate those regs.
    Semi-surprised but also pleased, because in addition to wearing a man bag and tying my French scarf in a hacking knot, I also like to hug a tree now and then.
    Like to drink water, too.

  302. I’m semi-surprised to hear somebody in IA complaining about the Waters of the US stuff. Most agricultural state folks I’ve seen quoted hate those regs.
    Semi-surprised but also pleased, because in addition to wearing a man bag and tying my French scarf in a hacking knot, I also like to hug a tree now and then.
    Like to drink water, too.

  315. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/02/23/the-kremlin-and-gop-share-a-new-friend-and-boy-does-she-love-guns.html?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
    The NRA has its own Red Dawn.
    Those paratroopers landing in your schoolyard sporting the Russian flag are actually Republicans.
    RedState indeed.
    I think it was Moe Lane and his future fellow Beavis and Butthead Redstaters back in the day at Tacitus and here who would reminisce about massaging their teenage boners over “Red Dawn”, the movie.
    They got off over the thought of grabbing a week’s supply of Cheetos and heading for the hills with their automatic weapons.
    The killing in this country should have started long ago.
    It may be too late now.

  316. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/02/23/the-kremlin-and-gop-share-a-new-friend-and-boy-does-she-love-guns.html?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
    The NRA has its own Red Dawn.
    Those paratroopers landing in your schoolyard sporting the Russian flag are actually Republicans.
    RedState indeed.
    I think it was Moe Lane and his future fellow Beavis and Butthead Redstaters back in the day at Tacitus and here who would reminisce about massaging their teenage boners over “Red Dawn”, the movie.
    They got off over the thought of grabbing a week’s supply of Cheetos and heading for the hills with their automatic weapons.
    The killing in this country should have started long ago.
    It may be too late now.

  317. It’s a military operation now:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-says-deportation-enforcement-is-military-operation
    Meanwhile, one state, there are others as well, moves to make protest illegal.
    http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/2/23/1636892/-Arizona-Republicans-have-a-plan-to-make-protest-illegal
    Especially if you plan a peaceful protest and fascist FBI and conservative plants disrupt it with violence to make everyone look bad.
    ryan and company have been turning away Americans bearing petitions using security teams.
    trump and republican security forces are definitely being guided and trained in Russian totalitarian security measures to bring the boot down in America.
    Go ahead, republican filth, shut down an armed population’s peaceful avenues for petitioning their grievances before government.
    Please do that.

  318. It’s a military operation now:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-says-deportation-enforcement-is-military-operation
    Meanwhile, one state, there are others as well, moves to make protest illegal.
    http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/2/23/1636892/-Arizona-Republicans-have-a-plan-to-make-protest-illegal
    Especially if you plan a peaceful protest and fascist FBI and conservative plants disrupt it with violence to make everyone look bad.
    ryan and company have been turning away Americans bearing petitions using security teams.
    trump and republican security forces are definitely being guided and trained in Russian totalitarian security measures to bring the boot down in America.
    Go ahead, republican filth, shut down an armed population’s peaceful avenues for petitioning their grievances before government.
    Please do that.

  325. Part of the problem with Obama’s “look forward not back” approach to torture accountability
    The other part being that it was plain wrong.

  326. Part of the problem with Obama’s “look forward not back” approach to torture accountability
    The other part being that it was plain wrong.

  329. Ugh, your Newsweek link on Gorka gave me a great deal of pleasure. I think part of my obsession with him (apart from the fact that a young twit I’ve known from babyhood keeps retweeting him approvingly) is that superficially he sounds richly British and respectable, and ridiculous though it is this may give him some credibility with the viewing public. Whereas to an English person, he immediately sounds very dodgy indeed, more oleaginous Toby Esterhazy than anything else (for fans of the Alec Guinness Tinker Tailor).
    Count, your Daily Kos link on the attempts to make protesting impossible or at least more difficult is very chilling. I’ve been fearing something like this since the Women’s March. Here’s hoping the courts hold the line.
    Very annoyingly, it’s now my turn not to be able to read a link – wj’s WaPo piece on the demonic activity at Trump’s rally. I long for it, but I’ve now used up my monthly allowance (the NYT is the only subscription I’ve got at the moment, but I may have to get WaPo and the New Yorker if things go on like this). I tried deleting all records of WaPo articles this month from my browsing history, but it didn’t work. I’ll survive – I don’t think it’s worth someone cutting and pasting like I did with the NYT article, if it’s any great length, so I will take pleasure in what I imagine it says!

  330. Ugh, your Newsweek link on Gorka gave me a great deal of pleasure. I think part of my obsession with him (apart from the fact that a young twit I’ve known from babyhood keeps retweeting him approvingly) is that superficially he sounds richly British and respectable, and ridiculous though it is this may give him some credibility with the viewing public. Whereas to an English person, he immediately sounds very dodgy indeed, more oleaginous Toby Esterhazy than anything else (for fans of the Alec Guinness Tinker Tailor).
    Count, your Daily Kos link on the attempts to make protesting impossible or at least more difficult is very chilling. I’ve been fearing something like this since the Women’s March. Here’s hoping the courts hold the line.
    Very annoyingly, it’s now my turn not to be able to read a link – wj’s WaPo piece on the demonic activity at Trump’s rally. I long for it, but I’ve now used up my monthly allowance (the NYT is the only subscription I’ve got at the moment, but I may have to get WaPo and the New Yorker if things go on like this). I tried deleting all records of WaPo articles this month from my browsing history, but it didn’t work. I’ll survive – I don’t think it’s worth someone cutting and pasting like I did with the NYT article, if it’s any great length, so I will take pleasure in what I imagine it says!

  331. Very annoyingly, it’s now my turn not to be able to read a link – wj’s WaPo piece on the demonic activity at Trump’s rally.
    GFTNC, did you try opening a private browsing window and pasting the URL in? That always works for me with WaPo articles on my iPad. Every browser I’ve used has private browsing as an option.

  332. Very annoyingly, it’s now my turn not to be able to read a link – wj’s WaPo piece on the demonic activity at Trump’s rally.
    GFTNC, did you try opening a private browsing window and pasting the URL in? That always works for me with WaPo articles on my iPad. Every browser I’ve used has private browsing as an option.

  333. hsh: ok, this is where it becomes clear (if it isn’t already) just how ignorant I am about computer-related matters. I barely knew what you were talking about, or how to do it. But guess what, I mucked about for a bit, and hallelujah – it worked! On Chrome it seems to be called an Incognito Window. Thank you very much.

  334. hsh: ok, this is where it becomes clear (if it isn’t already) just how ignorant I am about computer-related matters. I barely knew what you were talking about, or how to do it. But guess what, I mucked about for a bit, and hallelujah – it worked! On Chrome it seems to be called an Incognito Window. Thank you very much.

  339. This is from Feb 6th, so it’s possible someone (maybe even me – I’m seeing so much it’s all one big jumble in my mind) has already posted it, in which case as usual I apologise. It’s an interesting and quite helpful piece by David Frum on how the left can make their protests really achieve something apart from catharsis. I’m well aware how weird it is to be taking advice from the man who, apart from anything else, coined “the Axis of Evil” (although if we didn’t have that we wouldn’t have Axis of Weasels, so there’s no cloud without a silver lining). But, in the spirit with which McK answered Doc Science’s request for thoughts on how to gather Republican or conservative allies, this is useful, and a lot of it is not all that different from Indivisible’s advice anyway.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/how-to-beat-trump/515736/

  340. This is from Feb 6th, so it’s possible someone (maybe even me – I’m seeing so much it’s all one big jumble in my mind) has already posted it, in which case as usual I apologise. It’s an interesting and quite helpful piece by David Frum on how the left can make their protests really achieve something apart from catharsis. I’m well aware how weird it is to be taking advice from the man who, apart from anything else, coined “the Axis of Evil” (although if we didn’t have that we wouldn’t have Axis of Weasels, so there’s no cloud without a silver lining). But, in the spirit with which McK answered Doc Science’s request for thoughts on how to gather Republican or conservative allies, this is useful, and a lot of it is not all that different from Indivisible’s advice anyway.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/how-to-beat-trump/515736/

  343. Yes, hence colloquial (non-orthodox) usage to describe ultra (or even semi-ultra) orthodox types as “frumniks”. There’s a lot to be said for Yiddish, it is tremendously expressive. When someone is feeling all mixed up and confused, they say they are “tsu-misht”. It says it all, really.

  344. Yes, hence colloquial (non-orthodox) usage to describe ultra (or even semi-ultra) orthodox types as “frumniks”. There’s a lot to be said for Yiddish, it is tremendously expressive. When someone is feeling all mixed up and confused, they say they are “tsu-misht”. It says it all, really.

  351. But, in the spirit with which McK answered Doc Science’s request for thoughts on how to gather Republican or conservative allies, this is useful, and a lot of it is not all that different from Indivisible’s advice anyway.
    Maybe I didn’t read McKinney right. But if McKinney is still holding out for someone to “convince” him of stuff, perhaps McKinney should read Frum.
    I’ve been following Frum on Twitter, and pushing a lot of “likes”. Like McMullen (whose domestic policies I totally disagree with), he’s a patriot. I completely disagree with a lot of stuff that neoconservative people have said and defended, but Trump’s people want to burn it down.
    As far as I remember, it was a lot of work getting from the laws that I posted last night, to the Civil War, to reconstruction, to Jim Crow, to Civil Rights, to expanding Civil Rights … to where most of us were reasonably comfortable, where we were opening our hearts to people we were suspicious of …. It was incremental. It was two steps forward, and often more than one step back.
    McKinney is an advocate. He doesn’t need for us to persuade him – he’s fully capable of getting on the train. If he’s with us, he needs to be persuading people – not asking us for reasons. He should be providing them.
    Again, I promised LJ that I would not be an angry participant. And I am not trolling – I’m just asking that people look at the world, and figure out what to do for our children. I’ve agreed with McKinney before, and am more than willing to extend my hand again.

  352. But, in the spirit with which McK answered Doc Science’s request for thoughts on how to gather Republican or conservative allies, this is useful, and a lot of it is not all that different from Indivisible’s advice anyway.
    Maybe I didn’t read McKinney right. But if McKinney is still holding out for someone to “convince” him of stuff, perhaps McKinney should read Frum.
    I’ve been following Frum on Twitter, and pushing a lot of “likes”. Like McMullen (whose domestic policies I totally disagree with), he’s a patriot. I completely disagree with a lot of stuff that neoconservative people have said and defended, but Trump’s people want to burn it down.
    As far as I remember, it was a lot of work getting from the laws that I posted last night, to the Civil War, to reconstruction, to Jim Crow, to Civil Rights, to expanding Civil Rights … to where most of us were reasonably comfortable, where we were opening our hearts to people we were suspicious of …. It was incremental. It was two steps forward, and often more than one step back.
    McKinney is an advocate. He doesn’t need for us to persuade him – he’s fully capable of getting on the train. If he’s with us, he needs to be persuading people – not asking us for reasons. He should be providing them.
    Again, I promised LJ that I would not be an angry participant. And I am not trolling – I’m just asking that people look at the world, and figure out what to do for our children. I’ve agreed with McKinney before, and am more than willing to extend my hand again.

  353. sapient – there are other ways of holding people accountable than prosecuting them. E.g., why is that person (along with others) still working for the CIA? He could have declassed the Senate torture report in full. He could have stop invoking the state secrets doctrine. Etc.
    None of them require a conviction in front of a jury.

  354. sapient – there are other ways of holding people accountable than prosecuting them. E.g., why is that person (along with others) still working for the CIA? He could have declassed the Senate torture report in full. He could have stop invoking the state secrets doctrine. Etc.
    None of them require a conviction in front of a jury.

  355. When Trump installs his cronies in the NSA, it would be a good idea to post all of your comments in Yiddish, for security.
    Pig-latin is also an option.
    But personally I prefer the somewhat more rigorous ROT-13 encoding.
    For extra security, use DOUBLE ROT-13.

  356. When Trump installs his cronies in the NSA, it would be a good idea to post all of your comments in Yiddish, for security.
    Pig-latin is also an option.
    But personally I prefer the somewhat more rigorous ROT-13 encoding.
    For extra security, use DOUBLE ROT-13.

  359. why is that person (along with others) still working for the CIA? He could have declassed the Senate torture report in full.
    No, he couldn’t have, without making it a vigilante prosecution.

  360. why is that person (along with others) still working for the CIA? He could have declassed the Senate torture report in full.
    No, he couldn’t have, without making it a vigilante prosecution.

  361. Sapient, read the first page of the doc’s recent post “the United States has no National Security”. You don’t have to go far down, only the first ten or fifteen comments or so, to see the exchange between McKinney and her – I think you will see some surprising agreement, and frum-like advice, which she asks him for.

  362. Sapient, read the first page of the doc’s recent post “the United States has no National Security”. You don’t have to go far down, only the first ten or fifteen comments or so, to see the exchange between McKinney and her – I think you will see some surprising agreement, and frum-like advice, which she asks him for.

  363. No, he couldn’t have, without making it a vigilante prosecution.
    What I mean is, the US government owns this. Scapegoating what quite obviously had the imprimatur of the “people”, particularly after the 2004 elections, would be IMO pretty ugly. We voted for it (not me, but we). We voted for Trump (not me, but we).
    This is what happens when we (not me) don’t take elections deadly seriously. We (including me) suffer the shame.

  364. No, he couldn’t have, without making it a vigilante prosecution.
    What I mean is, the US government owns this. Scapegoating what quite obviously had the imprimatur of the “people”, particularly after the 2004 elections, would be IMO pretty ugly. We voted for it (not me, but we). We voted for Trump (not me, but we).
    This is what happens when we (not me) don’t take elections deadly seriously. We (including me) suffer the shame.

  365. Thanks GftNC. I was lurking, and saw it. I get it that McKinney is being more reasonable, and that’s nice. Anger management.
    Again, I extend my hand.

  366. Thanks GftNC. I was lurking, and saw it. I get it that McKinney is being more reasonable, and that’s nice. Anger management.
    Again, I extend my hand.

  367. You mean make the CIA agent’s targets? I guess. He could have done it in a way that covered that up (which would not be “in full”), but instead we don’t only get the redacted executive summary.
    State secrets could have been taken off the table. High (and low) level CIA folk involved could have been fired/ousted/encouraged to leave early.
    He could have encouraged a full, fair, and public accounting of that period, but instead let CIA fight it tooth and nail.
    Here we are nearly 15 years on, and we still don’t know the full extent of the US government’s use and promotion of torture. Instead, we’re at risk of stepping back into that, secret prisons, and an expansion of Gitmo. CIA #2 is now someone who ran a black site prison in thailand and knee deep in torture.
    Second in charge.
    As I said elsewhere in reference to the US Army and Abu Ghraib, is the lesson learned on torture don’t do it, or don’t take pictures? It appears to be the latter.

  368. You mean make the CIA agent’s targets? I guess. He could have done it in a way that covered that up (which would not be “in full”), but instead we don’t only get the redacted executive summary.
    State secrets could have been taken off the table. High (and low) level CIA folk involved could have been fired/ousted/encouraged to leave early.
    He could have encouraged a full, fair, and public accounting of that period, but instead let CIA fight it tooth and nail.
    Here we are nearly 15 years on, and we still don’t know the full extent of the US government’s use and promotion of torture. Instead, we’re at risk of stepping back into that, secret prisons, and an expansion of Gitmo. CIA #2 is now someone who ran a black site prison in thailand and knee deep in torture.
    Second in charge.
    As I said elsewhere in reference to the US Army and Abu Ghraib, is the lesson learned on torture don’t do it, or don’t take pictures? It appears to be the latter.

  369. sapient, I appreciate your control here. I’m not trying to tone police, and I don’t have much time the next two months to wade into things, but wanted to make a few observations.
    coming from the mindset ‘I know what the world is like and you don’t’ is not going to get us far. It’s not the anger that I have a problem with, it is the anger directed at people participating here.
    I’m not suggesting that you or anyone else has crossed any lines and again, I am glad you are back. But I know that _I_ am yelling at the TV, and _my_ patience with everyday bumps and problems is vastly reduced. I think it is difficult if not impossible to reduce the amount of anger in me, but what I have to do is to make sure that I don’t direct it at the wrong people. This might seem directed at you, but it is a more general plea that came to mind when you talked about anger. So please don’t think I’m calling you out. thx
    Anyway, a few more things
    GftN might be interested in this
    http://europe.newsweek.com/sebastian-gorka-white-house-terrorism-adviser-angry-call-559805?rm=eu
    Another great (which is to say horrific) link
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/rumana-ahmed-trump/517521/
    Again, thanks everyone, I appreciate you participation now more than ever.

  370. sapient, I appreciate your control here. I’m not trying to tone police, and I don’t have much time the next two months to wade into things, but wanted to make a few observations.
    coming from the mindset ‘I know what the world is like and you don’t’ is not going to get us far. It’s not the anger that I have a problem with, it is the anger directed at people participating here.
    I’m not suggesting that you or anyone else has crossed any lines and again, I am glad you are back. But I know that _I_ am yelling at the TV, and _my_ patience with everyday bumps and problems is vastly reduced. I think it is difficult if not impossible to reduce the amount of anger in me, but what I have to do is to make sure that I don’t direct it at the wrong people. This might seem directed at you, but it is a more general plea that came to mind when you talked about anger. So please don’t think I’m calling you out. thx
    Anyway, a few more things
    GftN might be interested in this
    http://europe.newsweek.com/sebastian-gorka-white-house-terrorism-adviser-angry-call-559805?rm=eu
    Another great (which is to say horrific) link
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/rumana-ahmed-trump/517521/
    Again, thanks everyone, I appreciate you participation now more than ever.

  371. LJ, just on a personal note: I was insulted at being banned, but then actually grateful for it. I think of you as being a compassionate intermediary, and when I speak of your intervention, and promise that I will observe my promise, I am not being snarky.
    Anyway, I won’t put it on you anymore. I’ll just try to be mindful.
    Again, thanks.

  372. LJ, just on a personal note: I was insulted at being banned, but then actually grateful for it. I think of you as being a compassionate intermediary, and when I speak of your intervention, and promise that I will observe my promise, I am not being snarky.
    Anyway, I won’t put it on you anymore. I’ll just try to be mindful.
    Again, thanks.

  373. It appears that at least some Senate Republicans have utterly failed to learn from the experience of California Republicans:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/the-coming-battle-over-legal-immigration/517518/
    Prop 187 changed California from a state the elected Ronald Reagan as Governor twice, and that routinely (as in more often than not) had Republicans as Governor and in other statewide offices, to one where Republicans not only hold zero statewide offices, but are an utter irrelevance in the state legislature. And yet, here are Senators Cotton and Purdue, trying to drive the national party down the same path.
    “Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

  374. It appears that at least some Senate Republicans have utterly failed to learn from the experience of California Republicans:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/the-coming-battle-over-legal-immigration/517518/
    Prop 187 changed California from a state the elected Ronald Reagan as Governor twice, and that routinely (as in more often than not) had Republicans as Governor and in other statewide offices, to one where Republicans not only hold zero statewide offices, but are an utter irrelevance in the state legislature. And yet, here are Senators Cotton and Purdue, trying to drive the national party down the same path.
    “Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

  375. What I mean is, the US government owns this.
    You say this, but in your prior and next breath, you insist that the one thing owning this can’t mean is that the US gov’t (which is entirely comprised of officials both elected and unelected, with professional and legal responsibilities to uphold and obey the laws and Constitution) can be held accountable or face consequences for what they “own”. Which… means “owning” it doesn’t actually mean anything.
    As I said elsewhere in reference to the US Army and Abu Ghraib, is the lesson learned on torture don’t do it, or don’t take pictures? It appears to be the latter.
    This is the most important point. Refusing to even formally investigate specifically identified individuals who were responsible for numerous well-documented violations of law (even after receiving very lenient guidelines as to what was considered legal), as well as their admitted destruction of further documentation and lying to Congress about what their internal reviews concluded (among many, many things) sends a very, very clear message: do whatever you want, and we’ll do everything in our power to look the other way; laws are for little unimportant people, and what you’re doing is srs bzns.
    The fact that we have elections doesn’t – indeed, can’t – mean those we elect (and their bureaucratic minions, accomplices, and instigators) have free reign to ignore our laws. Any claim that it can or should has no basis in the Constitution, and indeed runs squarely counter to it. Rule of law vs. rule of men, etc. The idea that we elect kings is… beyond noxious.

  376. What I mean is, the US government owns this.
    You say this, but in your prior and next breath, you insist that the one thing owning this can’t mean is that the US gov’t (which is entirely comprised of officials both elected and unelected, with professional and legal responsibilities to uphold and obey the laws and Constitution) can be held accountable or face consequences for what they “own”. Which… means “owning” it doesn’t actually mean anything.
    As I said elsewhere in reference to the US Army and Abu Ghraib, is the lesson learned on torture don’t do it, or don’t take pictures? It appears to be the latter.
    This is the most important point. Refusing to even formally investigate specifically identified individuals who were responsible for numerous well-documented violations of law (even after receiving very lenient guidelines as to what was considered legal), as well as their admitted destruction of further documentation and lying to Congress about what their internal reviews concluded (among many, many things) sends a very, very clear message: do whatever you want, and we’ll do everything in our power to look the other way; laws are for little unimportant people, and what you’re doing is srs bzns.
    The fact that we have elections doesn’t – indeed, can’t – mean those we elect (and their bureaucratic minions, accomplices, and instigators) have free reign to ignore our laws. Any claim that it can or should has no basis in the Constitution, and indeed runs squarely counter to it. Rule of law vs. rule of men, etc. The idea that we elect kings is… beyond noxious.

  377. The idea that we elect kings is… beyond noxious.
    It might be beyond noxious. But it definitely isn’t beyond belief.
    Indeed, an awful lot of people seem to have a strong desire for a king. Some strongman to take care of everything for them. Or, I suspect, to take responsibility for them.

  378. The idea that we elect kings is… beyond noxious.
    It might be beyond noxious. But it definitely isn’t beyond belief.
    Indeed, an awful lot of people seem to have a strong desire for a king. Some strongman to take care of everything for them. Or, I suspect, to take responsibility for them.

  379. McKinney: Doc, thanks for identifying the leading, IMO, argument for removing Trump from office via the 25th Amendment.
    Doc Sci: I am heartened beyond words that this argument works for you, McKinney.
    What do you think would be the best way to spread it to other not-Hillary voters?
    McKinney: Good question. Of the cuff, widespread lobbying for a bipartisan select commission with full subpoena power (and power to grant immunity and power to hear classified material in camera) to look into Russian hacking the DNC, Russian contacts with the administration pre-inauguration, the administration’s relationship with the intelligence community and the administration’s husbandry (if I can use that word in a gender neutral sense) of classified information.
    If it were me writing the script, the campaign for the foregoing would include being a lot more selective about other Trump-related issues–I’m not saying across the board silence, just be a lot more selective. If he’s an asshole at a press conference, so what? That isn’t jeopardizing national security.
    If you want a coalition, build one.

    OK. So we have McKinney, in agreement with most of us, thinking that the security stuff pretty much justifies invoking 25th Amendment. He then, when asked, proceeds to give almost identical advice to Frum on how to harness the power of the protests to achieve something solid. I hope we can agree, therefore, that at the moment people like McKinney are not our problem. Marty, on the other hand, while not drinking the Kool-Aid yet, seems to be in a strange state of denial. We’ll have to see which way he jumps…
    Monitoring the opinions of conservatives seems to me to be vital at the moment. As someone on another thread noted, we don’t have to change the minds of liberals and progressives, we need to change the minds of reasonable conservatives and Republicans.

  380. McKinney: Doc, thanks for identifying the leading, IMO, argument for removing Trump from office via the 25th Amendment.
    Doc Sci: I am heartened beyond words that this argument works for you, McKinney.
    What do you think would be the best way to spread it to other not-Hillary voters?
    McKinney: Good question. Of the cuff, widespread lobbying for a bipartisan select commission with full subpoena power (and power to grant immunity and power to hear classified material in camera) to look into Russian hacking the DNC, Russian contacts with the administration pre-inauguration, the administration’s relationship with the intelligence community and the administration’s husbandry (if I can use that word in a gender neutral sense) of classified information.
    If it were me writing the script, the campaign for the foregoing would include being a lot more selective about other Trump-related issues–I’m not saying across the board silence, just be a lot more selective. If he’s an asshole at a press conference, so what? That isn’t jeopardizing national security.
    If you want a coalition, build one.

    OK. So we have McKinney, in agreement with most of us, thinking that the security stuff pretty much justifies invoking 25th Amendment. He then, when asked, proceeds to give almost identical advice to Frum on how to harness the power of the protests to achieve something solid. I hope we can agree, therefore, that at the moment people like McKinney are not our problem. Marty, on the other hand, while not drinking the Kool-Aid yet, seems to be in a strange state of denial. We’ll have to see which way he jumps…
    Monitoring the opinions of conservatives seems to me to be vital at the moment. As someone on another thread noted, we don’t have to change the minds of liberals and progressives, we need to change the minds of reasonable conservatives and Republicans.

  381. Only two quibbles with McTX’s perfectly reasonable counsel:
    Change “administration’s husbandry” to “administration’s animal husbandry”.
    ..and
    I agree with selectivity, soberly researched and firmly- and professionally-worded, at the levels at which the 25th Amendment will have to be invoked, channeled, and put into operation .. the legitimate 4th Estate and communications with elected representatives … but at street level, by which I mean here and on the street, ya know, the fifth estate, pointing out “Geez, what an asshole!” after any one of his press conferences or any other utterance is perfectly fine form, and besides it’s fun to observe his supporters yell, “Yes, exactly! He’s just like us!”
    Besides, I’m not sure that his bizzare behavior and words don’t pose a threat to national security. I mean, if he threatens Iran, North Korea, Russia, or China with violence in a press conference, because a synapse misfires (under the normal rules of civil discourse, which we left behind somewhere about the time he held up his fingers in a Presidential primary debate to show he was bigger than Marco Rubio — not an impossible claim .. but still) 30 seconds into a press conference, and any of those actors move military assets even an inch in response, yeah, then national security is on the f*cking line!

  382. Only two quibbles with McTX’s perfectly reasonable counsel:
    Change “administration’s husbandry” to “administration’s animal husbandry”.
    ..and
    I agree with selectivity, soberly researched and firmly- and professionally-worded, at the levels at which the 25th Amendment will have to be invoked, channeled, and put into operation .. the legitimate 4th Estate and communications with elected representatives … but at street level, by which I mean here and on the street, ya know, the fifth estate, pointing out “Geez, what an asshole!” after any one of his press conferences or any other utterance is perfectly fine form, and besides it’s fun to observe his supporters yell, “Yes, exactly! He’s just like us!”
    Besides, I’m not sure that his bizzare behavior and words don’t pose a threat to national security. I mean, if he threatens Iran, North Korea, Russia, or China with violence in a press conference, because a synapse misfires (under the normal rules of civil discourse, which we left behind somewhere about the time he held up his fingers in a Presidential primary debate to show he was bigger than Marco Rubio — not an impossible claim .. but still) 30 seconds into a press conference, and any of those actors move military assets even an inch in response, yeah, then national security is on the f*cking line!

  383. Aside from the 25th Amendment, and as most of you realize, I have bigger fish to fry.
    Getting trump is all very well and necessary, but I want the republican party to come out of this a steaming pile of charred rubble. I want it dead, as in non-existent.
    Frankly, I want it to be made illegal in the United States, as the Communist Party is, or was, on the books.
    This has nothing to do with the issues. The republican party birthed donald trump/bannon and company after a multi-decade gestation period. trump is not their offspring, he’s the malignant tumor that’s been mestastisizing at the cellular level of that movement for half a century.
    And that goes for the conservative movements across the globe, including Putin’s.
    This is not an endorsement of anything the Democratic Party stands for either. this is far and beyond whether I want universal healthcare or not.
    I don’t care what comes after the republican party’s death.
    I want personal vengeance against the entire republican conservative edifice.
    Call me biased.

  384. Aside from the 25th Amendment, and as most of you realize, I have bigger fish to fry.
    Getting trump is all very well and necessary, but I want the republican party to come out of this a steaming pile of charred rubble. I want it dead, as in non-existent.
    Frankly, I want it to be made illegal in the United States, as the Communist Party is, or was, on the books.
    This has nothing to do with the issues. The republican party birthed donald trump/bannon and company after a multi-decade gestation period. trump is not their offspring, he’s the malignant tumor that’s been mestastisizing at the cellular level of that movement for half a century.
    And that goes for the conservative movements across the globe, including Putin’s.
    This is not an endorsement of anything the Democratic Party stands for either. this is far and beyond whether I want universal healthcare or not.
    I don’t care what comes after the republican party’s death.
    I want personal vengeance against the entire republican conservative edifice.
    Call me biased.

  385. “Beautiful clean coal”, intones He, Trump — and some people still think He is not nuts.
    The US is failing its Rorschach test.
    –TP

  386. “Beautiful clean coal”, intones He, Trump — and some people still think He is not nuts.
    The US is failing its Rorschach test.
    –TP

  389. Ya know, back in the early 1980s, I worked in a small federal gummint office for awhile whose mission it was to try and jump start clean coal technologies and coal slurry pipelines through public/private partnerships.
    Republicans nixed that.
    It was too clean for them, I think.

  390. Ya know, back in the early 1980s, I worked in a small federal gummint office for awhile whose mission it was to try and jump start clean coal technologies and coal slurry pipelines through public/private partnerships.
    Republicans nixed that.
    It was too clean for them, I think.

  391. This has nothing to do with the issues. The republican party birthed donald trump/bannon and company after a multi-decade gestation period. trump is not their offspring, he’s the malignant tumor that’s been mestastisizing at the cellular level of that movement for half a century.
    Agreed, and as I have noted before, the sleep of reason brings forth monsters. Reason has been asleep, or comatose, while they a) deny climate change b) deny evolution and posit creationism and c) espouse discredited anti-vax theories, to name just three examples of anti-science idiocy. Oy vey indeed.
    lj, I should have said, thanks for the Gorka link, which I listened to again with great enjoyment. His “lets do this like gentlemen” shtick particularly amuses me, since it is another naked bid to claim the “civilised English gentleman” mantle. Ha! Like the kids (used to?) say “As if!” Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that whatever will be keeping you busy for the next two months, I hope it’s nothing too bad, and I, like sapient, send you good vibes and wish you nothing but the best.

  392. This has nothing to do with the issues. The republican party birthed donald trump/bannon and company after a multi-decade gestation period. trump is not their offspring, he’s the malignant tumor that’s been mestastisizing at the cellular level of that movement for half a century.
    Agreed, and as I have noted before, the sleep of reason brings forth monsters. Reason has been asleep, or comatose, while they a) deny climate change b) deny evolution and posit creationism and c) espouse discredited anti-vax theories, to name just three examples of anti-science idiocy. Oy vey indeed.
    lj, I should have said, thanks for the Gorka link, which I listened to again with great enjoyment. His “lets do this like gentlemen” shtick particularly amuses me, since it is another naked bid to claim the “civilised English gentleman” mantle. Ha! Like the kids (used to?) say “As if!” Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that whatever will be keeping you busy for the next two months, I hope it’s nothing too bad, and I, like sapient, send you good vibes and wish you nothing but the best.

  395. c) espouse discredited anti-vax theories
    A quibble – this one isn’t close to being a particularly right-wing phenomenon. Like the 9/11 truthers, anti-vaxxers come from both halves (maybe, more accurately, ends) of the spectrum.

  396. c) espouse discredited anti-vax theories
    A quibble – this one isn’t close to being a particularly right-wing phenomenon. Like the 9/11 truthers, anti-vaxxers come from both halves (maybe, more accurately, ends) of the spectrum.

  397. we need to change the minds of reasonable conservatives and Republicans.
    Please define the attributes of this alleged creature.
    I suspect they will more or less espouse the following:
    1. “States rights” when convenient for them.
    2. A system of private property and social relations dominated by the owning class, and maybe allow unions as long as they have little, if any power.
    3. Minimal “intervention” in so-called “free markets”.
    4. Government subsidies for their pet wishes.
    5. Low taxes. ALWAYs.
    6. Don’t go “too fast” when it comes to alleviating racism and sexism.
    7. A “sound currency” and “balanced budgets”.
    I find none of these things to be reasonable.
    Just sayin’

  398. we need to change the minds of reasonable conservatives and Republicans.
    Please define the attributes of this alleged creature.
    I suspect they will more or less espouse the following:
    1. “States rights” when convenient for them.
    2. A system of private property and social relations dominated by the owning class, and maybe allow unions as long as they have little, if any power.
    3. Minimal “intervention” in so-called “free markets”.
    4. Government subsidies for their pet wishes.
    5. Low taxes. ALWAYs.
    6. Don’t go “too fast” when it comes to alleviating racism and sexism.
    7. A “sound currency” and “balanced budgets”.
    I find none of these things to be reasonable.
    Just sayin’

  399. Oh, bobbyp, how shirll of you.
    Perhaps a “reasonable conservative” is one who doesn’t assume there’s a dichotomy between liberals and Americans.

  400. Oh, bobbyp, how shirll of you.
    Perhaps a “reasonable conservative” is one who doesn’t assume there’s a dichotomy between liberals and Americans.

  403. Indeed, an awful lot of people seem to have a strong desire for a king. Some strongman to take care of everything for them. Or, I suspect, to take responsibility for them.
    Yup.
    “Beautiful clean coal”, intones He, Trump — and some people still think He is not nuts.
    My state rep got into the government biz because she noticed all the soot on the floor from the coal fired power plant that used to be in Salem MA. The floor where her kid was playing. In the soot.
    My wife’s grandfather died from emphysema after a lifetime digging f***ing coal. At least he got a couple of years of retirement before pegging out.
    A friend who lives in WV posted a picture of a concrete wall somewhere near her, sporting graffiti of all sorts. One spray-painted comment was “Harlan is more than coal”. Somebody needs to tattoo that on Joe Manchin’s forehead, so he can read it every day when he brushes his teeth.
    They have billions, but they want it all. Watch your @sses everyone.

  404. Indeed, an awful lot of people seem to have a strong desire for a king. Some strongman to take care of everything for them. Or, I suspect, to take responsibility for them.
    Yup.
    “Beautiful clean coal”, intones He, Trump — and some people still think He is not nuts.
    My state rep got into the government biz because she noticed all the soot on the floor from the coal fired power plant that used to be in Salem MA. The floor where her kid was playing. In the soot.
    My wife’s grandfather died from emphysema after a lifetime digging f***ing coal. At least he got a couple of years of retirement before pegging out.
    A friend who lives in WV posted a picture of a concrete wall somewhere near her, sporting graffiti of all sorts. One spray-painted comment was “Harlan is more than coal”. Somebody needs to tattoo that on Joe Manchin’s forehead, so he can read it every day when he brushes his teeth.
    They have billions, but they want it all. Watch your @sses everyone.

  405. hsh: your quibble is absolutely correct, that was sloppy on my part. I should have known this, because in more carefree, palmier days, one of my problems with fellow hippy-types was what we called (before the expression New Age gained currency) “Atlantis Rising people”. The anti-science stuff was, and continues to be, a noticeable part of that kind of movement (I will not dignify it with the word philosophy. And of course, lots (and maybe even most) of those people would have been, and would still be, liberal in other respects.
    I wonder when anti-science people also became such a feature of the right, or maybe I should say the far right? Is it the fundamentalist Christians and their creationism needing to discredit Evolution? Or is the main thing the oil and gas barons needing to deny climate change? It’s an interesting question.

  406. hsh: your quibble is absolutely correct, that was sloppy on my part. I should have known this, because in more carefree, palmier days, one of my problems with fellow hippy-types was what we called (before the expression New Age gained currency) “Atlantis Rising people”. The anti-science stuff was, and continues to be, a noticeable part of that kind of movement (I will not dignify it with the word philosophy. And of course, lots (and maybe even most) of those people would have been, and would still be, liberal in other respects.
    I wonder when anti-science people also became such a feature of the right, or maybe I should say the far right? Is it the fundamentalist Christians and their creationism needing to discredit Evolution? Or is the main thing the oil and gas barons needing to deny climate change? It’s an interesting question.

  407. bobbyp: the times they have a-changed. The things we might in the past have fought conservatives about have to be temporarily shelved. Trump has changed everything, and can do much too much damage to be suffered to stay in power. “Reasonable conservates”, including in various shades McKinney, wj, Sebastian, Slartibartfast etc have to be our allies in the project of returning to the status quo ante, unsatisfactory though that was. Then the fight can be resumed. But, as in time of war, the defence of the country and its principles needs to be in the hands of all people of goodwill. Wasn’t it you who, in another thread suggested a government of national unity?

  408. bobbyp: the times they have a-changed. The things we might in the past have fought conservatives about have to be temporarily shelved. Trump has changed everything, and can do much too much damage to be suffered to stay in power. “Reasonable conservates”, including in various shades McKinney, wj, Sebastian, Slartibartfast etc have to be our allies in the project of returning to the status quo ante, unsatisfactory though that was. Then the fight can be resumed. But, as in time of war, the defence of the country and its principles needs to be in the hands of all people of goodwill. Wasn’t it you who, in another thread suggested a government of national unity?

  411. I was just kidding with ya, lj. Not really, my politics and milieu are such a mismatch with most of the blogosphere that I actually am paranoid and oversensitive.
    Can’t keep track of all the links, so forgive if repeat. From Kevin Drum
    Deconstruct the Administrative State
    “Bannon says that the post-World War II political and economic consensus is failing and should be replaced with a system that empowers ordinary people over coastal [urban, establishment ed] elites and international institutions.”
    Rings a bell for me, dudes, and those who can look past the red capes waved by the matadors and have a tolerance for intellectualism, pseudo or otherwise, might want to look into some bleeding edge critical theory, stuff I read for fun. This week’s:
    Hartmut Rosa Social Acceleration Reviewed
    “And there are, of course, more concrete political consequences to social acceleration, namely that “politics has run out of time.” The complexity of society and the decisions needed to govern it have become too fast for genuine democratic control. Nation states are faced with the option to charge ahead into the technological abyss in the hopes of staking out some future control or being left behind in the dust… That is, for Rosa, the “renunciation of political control today in order to preserve potential future opportunities of control.”
    Rosa is very much on the Left, but I think Bannon may have read him. In any case, the stuff Rosa might advocate include UBI, direct democracy on a local basis after devolutions and secessions, and of course new global associations and affective connections, Internet, like Germans on Obsidian Wings. Anyway, way beyond Republicans and Democrats battling for national control that can no longer really be achieved, I recommend East and West Coasts secede, as fast as possible. But give up playing politics as if we were still in 1975.
    Also recommended if you’re interested, Paul Virilio, Benjamin Bratton’s The Stack, and especially Mackenzie Wark and his colleagues at Public Seminar, as a portal and intro to recent intelligent non-nostalgic analysis and critique. He provides reading lists.

  412. I was just kidding with ya, lj. Not really, my politics and milieu are such a mismatch with most of the blogosphere that I actually am paranoid and oversensitive.
    Can’t keep track of all the links, so forgive if repeat. From Kevin Drum
    Deconstruct the Administrative State
    “Bannon says that the post-World War II political and economic consensus is failing and should be replaced with a system that empowers ordinary people over coastal [urban, establishment ed] elites and international institutions.”
    Rings a bell for me, dudes, and those who can look past the red capes waved by the matadors and have a tolerance for intellectualism, pseudo or otherwise, might want to look into some bleeding edge critical theory, stuff I read for fun. This week’s:
    Hartmut Rosa Social Acceleration Reviewed
    “And there are, of course, more concrete political consequences to social acceleration, namely that “politics has run out of time.” The complexity of society and the decisions needed to govern it have become too fast for genuine democratic control. Nation states are faced with the option to charge ahead into the technological abyss in the hopes of staking out some future control or being left behind in the dust… That is, for Rosa, the “renunciation of political control today in order to preserve potential future opportunities of control.”
    Rosa is very much on the Left, but I think Bannon may have read him. In any case, the stuff Rosa might advocate include UBI, direct democracy on a local basis after devolutions and secessions, and of course new global associations and affective connections, Internet, like Germans on Obsidian Wings. Anyway, way beyond Republicans and Democrats battling for national control that can no longer really be achieved, I recommend East and West Coasts secede, as fast as possible. But give up playing politics as if we were still in 1975.
    Also recommended if you’re interested, Paul Virilio, Benjamin Bratton’s The Stack, and especially Mackenzie Wark and his colleagues at Public Seminar, as a portal and intro to recent intelligent non-nostalgic analysis and critique. He provides reading lists.

  413. Getting trump is all very well and necessary, but I want the republican party to come out of this a steaming pile of charred rubble. I want it dead, as in non-existent.
    I have a deep, emotional, aversion to destroying my party. But intellectually, I am reluctantly moving towards the conclusion that it might be necessary. I don’t think so. Yet. But it might be.
    However, for the sake of discussion, assume it is. We are going to need an alternative party — if only to keep the Democrats on their toes. And I think it ought to be a center-right party. So where does it come from? How does it appear?
    Historically, in the US, we get a new party growing to the point of being a viable party of government only when there is a massive issue that is not being addressed by either the two existing parties. For the Republican Party, that was slavery. Do we have another issue today that it that big; one that neither party is addressing? One that could be the cause célèbre for a new party.
    I don’t see it. There are big issues; important issues. But I don’t see anything nearly that big. Do you? And if so, what is it?

  414. Getting trump is all very well and necessary, but I want the republican party to come out of this a steaming pile of charred rubble. I want it dead, as in non-existent.
    I have a deep, emotional, aversion to destroying my party. But intellectually, I am reluctantly moving towards the conclusion that it might be necessary. I don’t think so. Yet. But it might be.
    However, for the sake of discussion, assume it is. We are going to need an alternative party — if only to keep the Democrats on their toes. And I think it ought to be a center-right party. So where does it come from? How does it appear?
    Historically, in the US, we get a new party growing to the point of being a viable party of government only when there is a massive issue that is not being addressed by either the two existing parties. For the Republican Party, that was slavery. Do we have another issue today that it that big; one that neither party is addressing? One that could be the cause célèbre for a new party.
    I don’t see it. There are big issues; important issues. But I don’t see anything nearly that big. Do you? And if so, what is it?

  415. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/crowd-waves-russian-flags-for-trump
    peach pits
    If there is anything the new age, read liberal, folks who founded the Vitamin Cottage et al hate more it’s the FDA mucking about with scientific studies proving that the $40 jar of powdered cockroach gizzards does NOT in fact improve erectile dysfunction.
    Course, if the studies that happen to prove some efficacy that the vial of the bark of the dog liquified and applied via eyedropper to glaucoma patients and sold via those interminable (now before I tell you what I’m going to tell you, let me tell you five little stories) “sponsered” internet presentations by Dr. Glutius Maximus, formerly chief surgeon of the mobile DocInAVan Bullshit Dispensary of Johns Popkins College of Prevarication, improves vision, THEN they double the price and use the FDA’s positive conclusions in their advertising, while of course spending their lobbying budget on preventing the mandating of fast talkers who list the downsides, which might include spontaneous combustion and stagnation at lungs.
    Because America, in case you hadn’t noticed, is full of shit by virtue of the First Amendment.
    I would be happy to see the CDC contract out multiyear large sample studies to prove the absolute efficacy and safety of vaccines, particularly with respect to autism, but THAT would be science, and it matters no longer in full of shit America if the studies showed vaccine safety, once again, because the killer bee hive mind that is trump’s base believes declaring something to be true or not true is all it takes.
    Clean coal? trump will declare it clean in a Presidential directive, now go home. Studies, schmudies!
    Just so, with global warming. If the scientific consensus is wrong about the large-scale baddacity of global warming and nothing untoward happens, then we’re out some lunch money spent on the research.
    No harm done. So don’t clean the coal. Who cares? trump will get his EPA Chief to get HIS brother-in-law to eat a lump of coal on camera, smile soot-toothed at the rent-an-audience, and declare, “Clean and yummy, now get rid of the coal industry unions!”
    However, if the scientific consensus is even 50% on the money regarding climatic change and sea level rises and the damage and expense and death that will occur, we must rise up and hunt down the corrupt, paid naysayers, we all know who they are, who prevented the polity from researching the phenomenon and possible solutions AND go so far as to destroy data collected up to now, and f&cking kill them.
    There will be no redemption in that case from being full of shit.

  416. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/crowd-waves-russian-flags-for-trump
    peach pits
    If there is anything the new age, read liberal, folks who founded the Vitamin Cottage et al hate more it’s the FDA mucking about with scientific studies proving that the $40 jar of powdered cockroach gizzards does NOT in fact improve erectile dysfunction.
    Course, if the studies that happen to prove some efficacy that the vial of the bark of the dog liquified and applied via eyedropper to glaucoma patients and sold via those interminable (now before I tell you what I’m going to tell you, let me tell you five little stories) “sponsered” internet presentations by Dr. Glutius Maximus, formerly chief surgeon of the mobile DocInAVan Bullshit Dispensary of Johns Popkins College of Prevarication, improves vision, THEN they double the price and use the FDA’s positive conclusions in their advertising, while of course spending their lobbying budget on preventing the mandating of fast talkers who list the downsides, which might include spontaneous combustion and stagnation at lungs.
    Because America, in case you hadn’t noticed, is full of shit by virtue of the First Amendment.
    I would be happy to see the CDC contract out multiyear large sample studies to prove the absolute efficacy and safety of vaccines, particularly with respect to autism, but THAT would be science, and it matters no longer in full of shit America if the studies showed vaccine safety, once again, because the killer bee hive mind that is trump’s base believes declaring something to be true or not true is all it takes.
    Clean coal? trump will declare it clean in a Presidential directive, now go home. Studies, schmudies!
    Just so, with global warming. If the scientific consensus is wrong about the large-scale baddacity of global warming and nothing untoward happens, then we’re out some lunch money spent on the research.
    No harm done. So don’t clean the coal. Who cares? trump will get his EPA Chief to get HIS brother-in-law to eat a lump of coal on camera, smile soot-toothed at the rent-an-audience, and declare, “Clean and yummy, now get rid of the coal industry unions!”
    However, if the scientific consensus is even 50% on the money regarding climatic change and sea level rises and the damage and expense and death that will occur, we must rise up and hunt down the corrupt, paid naysayers, we all know who they are, who prevented the polity from researching the phenomenon and possible solutions AND go so far as to destroy data collected up to now, and f&cking kill them.
    There will be no redemption in that case from being full of shit.

  417. Once something in America moves from under-the counter nascent fad to money-making enterprise in America, maintaining the bullshit becomes high stakes.

  418. Once something in America moves from under-the counter nascent fad to money-making enterprise in America, maintaining the bullshit becomes high stakes.

  419. “However, for the sake of discussion, assume it is. We are going to need an alternative party — if only to keep the Democrats on their toes. And I think it ought to be a center-right party. So where does it come from? How does it appear?”
    I don’t know. But have at it.

  420. “However, for the sake of discussion, assume it is. We are going to need an alternative party — if only to keep the Democrats on their toes. And I think it ought to be a center-right party. So where does it come from? How does it appear?”
    I don’t know. But have at it.

  421. Perhaps a “reasonable conservative” is one who doesn’t assume there’s a dichotomy between liberals and Americans.
    I think ral here is a lot closer to the mark than Bobby. At least, it’s a start; a necessary start.
    But let’s see if I can come up with an actual list, like Bobby did:

    1. “States rights” meaning that states get to try out new ideas. Not so much “old ideas that we want to revert to”, but new ideas.
    2. A system of private property and social relations dominated by a belief that anyone, no matter their origins, should be able to become part of the “owning class”. We’ll never achieve a totally level playing field without unacceptable levels of government intrusion, but we could do a lot better than we are now. (See more at #5 below)
    3. Minimal “intervention” in so-called “free markets”. But “minimal” doesn’t mean “no”. Intervention is required for two reasons:
      • address information asymmetry. That’s kind of “consumer protection” that makes sense. You or I can’t know what the trade-offs are for every product that comes along. Somebody has to force producers to cough up the information; maybe force them to gather it in the first place.
      • address externalities. Some issues, pollution for just one example since coal came up earlier, come from neither the buyer nor the seller being adequately impacted, while other people are.

      Not saying that there might not be other kinds cases, but those two for sure.

    4. Government subsidies for very limited purposes. Mostly when regulation isn’t going to be adequate to deal with externalities. For example, if you want clean energy, it isn’t going to be sufficient to just clamp down on existing power sources. You need to provide some transitional (temporary!) financial incentives for people to develop alternatives. Better subsidies than have the government try to figure out the best alternative and just push that.
    5. Low taxes happen because of low government spending. But the things that government does do need to be paid for. Plus, in some cases the best way to achieve a valid government end (whatever that is) is to tax something.
      My favorite: In aid of #2 above, slap a massive tax on estates above a certain level. I have no problem with parents providing for their children . . . to a point. But not to the point where they will never have to work a day in their lives. So maybe inheritances above $1 million (to take a purely arbitrary number) get taxed at 90%. That leaves plenty for the kids. But it also keeps wealth from being excessively concentrated and so disadvantaging others in the next generation.
    6. Don’t go “too fast” when it comes to social changes. Because doing that is counter-productive.
      Compare abortion and gay (or, for the old folks among us, interracial) marriage. The government (specifically the courts) didn’t weigh in on the marriage until most of the country had gotten on board. So while it will still upset some people in the future, it isn’t going to be much of an issue a decade or two from now.
      On abortion, the courts jumped in too early. If they had waited another few years, it would have been a different matter. But as it is, we are still fighting about it half a century later.
      Waiting unquestionably hurts some people. But pushing too far too fast ends up hurting a lot more people in the end.
      In general, I would say that there are issues that require government intervention to drive change to address them. But the basic principle should be: “What is the smallest change that will deal with the problem?” And change just for the sake of change isn’t something that government should be doing.
    7. Stuff has to be paid for. If you are undertaking a long-term project, or deal with a limited-time emergency (wars come to mind), borrowing to pay for it makes sense. If you are just trying to fund more current expenditures today, it doesn’t. It just kicks the can down the road to avoid facing the cost of what you are doing.

    I could probably come up with a bigger list. But I got lazy and just tried to modify the points Bobby brought up. Maybe some day I’ll put together an actual post on “What constitutes real conservatism — as opposed to the reactionary nonsense that has appropriated the label in today’s America”.

  422. Perhaps a “reasonable conservative” is one who doesn’t assume there’s a dichotomy between liberals and Americans.
    I think ral here is a lot closer to the mark than Bobby. At least, it’s a start; a necessary start.
    But let’s see if I can come up with an actual list, like Bobby did:

    1. “States rights” meaning that states get to try out new ideas. Not so much “old ideas that we want to revert to”, but new ideas.
    2. A system of private property and social relations dominated by a belief that anyone, no matter their origins, should be able to become part of the “owning class”. We’ll never achieve a totally level playing field without unacceptable levels of government intrusion, but we could do a lot better than we are now. (See more at #5 below)
    3. Minimal “intervention” in so-called “free markets”. But “minimal” doesn’t mean “no”. Intervention is required for two reasons:
      • address information asymmetry. That’s kind of “consumer protection” that makes sense. You or I can’t know what the trade-offs are for every product that comes along. Somebody has to force producers to cough up the information; maybe force them to gather it in the first place.
      • address externalities. Some issues, pollution for just one example since coal came up earlier, come from neither the buyer nor the seller being adequately impacted, while other people are.

      Not saying that there might not be other kinds cases, but those two for sure.

    4. Government subsidies for very limited purposes. Mostly when regulation isn’t going to be adequate to deal with externalities. For example, if you want clean energy, it isn’t going to be sufficient to just clamp down on existing power sources. You need to provide some transitional (temporary!) financial incentives for people to develop alternatives. Better subsidies than have the government try to figure out the best alternative and just push that.
    5. Low taxes happen because of low government spending. But the things that government does do need to be paid for. Plus, in some cases the best way to achieve a valid government end (whatever that is) is to tax something.
      My favorite: In aid of #2 above, slap a massive tax on estates above a certain level. I have no problem with parents providing for their children . . . to a point. But not to the point where they will never have to work a day in their lives. So maybe inheritances above $1 million (to take a purely arbitrary number) get taxed at 90%. That leaves plenty for the kids. But it also keeps wealth from being excessively concentrated and so disadvantaging others in the next generation.
    6. Don’t go “too fast” when it comes to social changes. Because doing that is counter-productive.
      Compare abortion and gay (or, for the old folks among us, interracial) marriage. The government (specifically the courts) didn’t weigh in on the marriage until most of the country had gotten on board. So while it will still upset some people in the future, it isn’t going to be much of an issue a decade or two from now.
      On abortion, the courts jumped in too early. If they had waited another few years, it would have been a different matter. But as it is, we are still fighting about it half a century later.
      Waiting unquestionably hurts some people. But pushing too far too fast ends up hurting a lot more people in the end.
      In general, I would say that there are issues that require government intervention to drive change to address them. But the basic principle should be: “What is the smallest change that will deal with the problem?” And change just for the sake of change isn’t something that government should be doing.
    7. Stuff has to be paid for. If you are undertaking a long-term project, or deal with a limited-time emergency (wars come to mind), borrowing to pay for it makes sense. If you are just trying to fund more current expenditures today, it doesn’t. It just kicks the can down the road to avoid facing the cost of what you are doing.

    I could probably come up with a bigger list. But I got lazy and just tried to modify the points Bobby brought up. Maybe some day I’ll put together an actual post on “What constitutes real conservatism — as opposed to the reactionary nonsense that has appropriated the label in today’s America”.

  425. Just so, with global warming
    Check this out:
    Syrian war – single-digit millions of refugees, another single-digit millions of refugees displaced internally.
    A catastrophe. Could be the collapse of the EU and the re-emergence of reactionary nationalism there and elsewhere, with all the murderous bullshit that comes along with that.
    Population of Bangladesh – a bit more than 150 million people.

  426. Just so, with global warming
    Check this out:
    Syrian war – single-digit millions of refugees, another single-digit millions of refugees displaced internally.
    A catastrophe. Could be the collapse of the EU and the re-emergence of reactionary nationalism there and elsewhere, with all the murderous bullshit that comes along with that.
    Population of Bangladesh – a bit more than 150 million people.

  427. It’s possible that it’s already been destroyed.
    I’m afraid the word is actually “imploded”. It’s not like those outside the GOP have taken significant action to push us to do massively stupid things….

  428. It’s possible that it’s already been destroyed.
    I’m afraid the word is actually “imploded”. It’s not like those outside the GOP have taken significant action to push us to do massively stupid things….

  429. “However, for the sake of discussion, assume it is. We are going to need an alternative party — if only to keep the Democrats on their toes. And I think it ought to be a center-right party. So where does it come from? How does it appear?”
    I don’t know. But have at it.
    Count, my point was, for an alternative to happen, there has to be an issue to bring it into being. Absent that (and I don’t see one), purging the existing party of the lunatics seems more likely to succeed. Not, mind, super likely to succeed. Especially quickly. Just more likely.

  430. “However, for the sake of discussion, assume it is. We are going to need an alternative party — if only to keep the Democrats on their toes. And I think it ought to be a center-right party. So where does it come from? How does it appear?”
    I don’t know. But have at it.
    Count, my point was, for an alternative to happen, there has to be an issue to bring it into being. Absent that (and I don’t see one), purging the existing party of the lunatics seems more likely to succeed. Not, mind, super likely to succeed. Especially quickly. Just more likely.

  431. wj, funny you should mention…

    [#5] My favorite: In aid of #2 above, slap a massive tax on estates above a certain level. I have no problem with parents providing for their children . . . to a point. But not to the point where they will never have to work a day in their lives. So maybe inheritances above $1 million (to take a purely arbitrary number) get taxed at 90%

    A dear friend of mine, former Republican and pretty far toward the right end of the spectrum, espouses this too. I agree, that is a good idea but we’re a long way from that goal.

  432. wj, funny you should mention…

    [#5] My favorite: In aid of #2 above, slap a massive tax on estates above a certain level. I have no problem with parents providing for their children . . . to a point. But not to the point where they will never have to work a day in their lives. So maybe inheritances above $1 million (to take a purely arbitrary number) get taxed at 90%

    A dear friend of mine, former Republican and pretty far toward the right end of the spectrum, espouses this too. I agree, that is a good idea but we’re a long way from that goal.

  433. We’re a long way from that goal because so many politicians, in both parties, are funded by rich people who want to take care of their own kids. (Whether making it possible for those kids to be drones is good for them is another question.)

  434. We’re a long way from that goal because so many politicians, in both parties, are funded by rich people who want to take care of their own kids. (Whether making it possible for those kids to be drones is good for them is another question.)

  435. Perhaps a “reasonable conservative” is one who doesn’t assume there’s a dichotomy between liberals and Americans.
    Here is my thing.
    I don’t consider myself to be liberal or conservative. I end up calling myself “left” because it’s the adjective that fits least badly.
    What I am about is this:
    I affirm the commonwealth as the best available model for a human polity. Self-governance, by the people, for the benefit of the people. In the words of John Adams, from the MA Constitution:

    it is a social compact, by which the whole people covenants with each citizen, and each citizen with the whole people, that all shall be governed by certain laws for the common good.

    The same idea is captured by Lincoln’s formuation “of the people, for the people and by the people”.
    I don’t care how big or small government is. It should be as big as the people who are governed by it want it to be.
    I don’t care how high or low taxes are. They should be as low or high as the people who are governed want them to be.
    I don’t care what things belong to the public sector and what to the private sector. The people who live under the government should pick which things belong to which sector.
    I have almost no interest whatsoever in theoretically based agendas. I want the roads paved, the trash picked up, and when I turn the tap I want water to come out.
    The point I think we have come to is that the nation is too large, and includes too many different kinds of people, for there to be anything remotely approaching consensus about any of the things I’ve listed. If that’s so, maybe it’s time to make a new arrangement, because all we do now is yell at each other about things that are, fundamentally, matters of social and cultural identity and preference.
    It’s a circle I personally do not know how to square.
    I don’t think we all want the same things anymore. I do not believe we constitute a single coherent nation at this point.
    Feel free to argue against that, but you have a hell of a lot of phenomena to explain away.

  436. Perhaps a “reasonable conservative” is one who doesn’t assume there’s a dichotomy between liberals and Americans.
    Here is my thing.
    I don’t consider myself to be liberal or conservative. I end up calling myself “left” because it’s the adjective that fits least badly.
    What I am about is this:
    I affirm the commonwealth as the best available model for a human polity. Self-governance, by the people, for the benefit of the people. In the words of John Adams, from the MA Constitution:

    it is a social compact, by which the whole people covenants with each citizen, and each citizen with the whole people, that all shall be governed by certain laws for the common good.

    The same idea is captured by Lincoln’s formuation “of the people, for the people and by the people”.
    I don’t care how big or small government is. It should be as big as the people who are governed by it want it to be.
    I don’t care how high or low taxes are. They should be as low or high as the people who are governed want them to be.
    I don’t care what things belong to the public sector and what to the private sector. The people who live under the government should pick which things belong to which sector.
    I have almost no interest whatsoever in theoretically based agendas. I want the roads paved, the trash picked up, and when I turn the tap I want water to come out.
    The point I think we have come to is that the nation is too large, and includes too many different kinds of people, for there to be anything remotely approaching consensus about any of the things I’ve listed. If that’s so, maybe it’s time to make a new arrangement, because all we do now is yell at each other about things that are, fundamentally, matters of social and cultural identity and preference.
    It’s a circle I personally do not know how to square.
    I don’t think we all want the same things anymore. I do not believe we constitute a single coherent nation at this point.
    Feel free to argue against that, but you have a hell of a lot of phenomena to explain away.

  441. “Indeed, an awful lot of people seem to have a strong desire for a king.”
    Someone to claim us, someone to follow
    Someone to shame us, some brave Apollo
    Someone to fool us, someone like you
    We want you, Big Brother
    Big Brother!

  442. “Indeed, an awful lot of people seem to have a strong desire for a king.”
    Someone to claim us, someone to follow
    Someone to shame us, some brave Apollo
    Someone to fool us, someone like you
    We want you, Big Brother
    Big Brother!

  443. I watched Milo Yannopoijsdoiujsoaiufdoau on Bill Maher, which was by far the most I had ever seen or heard from the guy. I couldn’t make heads or tails of the ultimate point of anything he had to say. I understood the individual sentences, but I didn’t see, once they were all put together, what sort of way forward they represented. I was thinking, “Okay. Now what? What do you want to happen, exactly, and by what means?”
    Bannon, though stylistically very different, leaves me thinking exactly the same thing.
    Maybe they’re just both starting from points of view that are so far from mine that I can’t begin to understand them. Perhaps it’s because there are so many underlying, unstated assumptions implicit in their words that it’s almost as though they’re speaking another language.
    Or maybe WRS – it’s as simple as their being out of their freaking gourds. (Though I tend to think there is at least a schtick going on, with the primary purpose of making money for themselves.)

  444. I watched Milo Yannopoijsdoiujsoaiufdoau on Bill Maher, which was by far the most I had ever seen or heard from the guy. I couldn’t make heads or tails of the ultimate point of anything he had to say. I understood the individual sentences, but I didn’t see, once they were all put together, what sort of way forward they represented. I was thinking, “Okay. Now what? What do you want to happen, exactly, and by what means?”
    Bannon, though stylistically very different, leaves me thinking exactly the same thing.
    Maybe they’re just both starting from points of view that are so far from mine that I can’t begin to understand them. Perhaps it’s because there are so many underlying, unstated assumptions implicit in their words that it’s almost as though they’re speaking another language.
    Or maybe WRS – it’s as simple as their being out of their freaking gourds. (Though I tend to think there is at least a schtick going on, with the primary purpose of making money for themselves.)

  445. If I was going to make a SWAG about Bannon’s schtick, it would be that he’s a Pat Buchanan-esque reactionary, only maybe more so. A culturally traditionalist, politically and economically nationalist hard-ass. Probably with tendencies toward white supremacy, or at least “European” supremacy, but we don’t say that stuff in polite company anymore, so he refrains from just blurting that part out.
    A Judeo-Christian jihadi, but keeping it between the lines enough to avoid making himself completely toxic, politically.
    Then again, that could all be BS and he could just really be into having a lot of power.

  446. If I was going to make a SWAG about Bannon’s schtick, it would be that he’s a Pat Buchanan-esque reactionary, only maybe more so. A culturally traditionalist, politically and economically nationalist hard-ass. Probably with tendencies toward white supremacy, or at least “European” supremacy, but we don’t say that stuff in polite company anymore, so he refrains from just blurting that part out.
    A Judeo-Christian jihadi, but keeping it between the lines enough to avoid making himself completely toxic, politically.
    Then again, that could all be BS and he could just really be into having a lot of power.

  451. Not so much a president, as a cult leader
    It’s time for Republicans to call b.s. on this. They are the party in power. For Democrats to “build a coalition” – sure, we’re already there. If Republicans won’t stand with us, there are some words for what they have become.
    I will go read a book now.

  452. Not so much a president, as a cult leader
    It’s time for Republicans to call b.s. on this. They are the party in power. For Democrats to “build a coalition” – sure, we’re already there. If Republicans won’t stand with us, there are some words for what they have become.
    I will go read a book now.

  453. On another subject, does the word “comprise” now simply mean the same thing as “compose”? Even journalists from respectable news sources use it that way now.
    Language inevitably changes, but I prefer it to grow rather than shrink.

  454. On another subject, does the word “comprise” now simply mean the same thing as “compose”? Even journalists from respectable news sources use it that way now.
    Language inevitably changes, but I prefer it to grow rather than shrink.

  455. “comprise” = “be made up of”
    secondary meaning : “makes up”, e.g. “women comprise a little more than half the population”

  456. “comprise” = “be made up of”
    secondary meaning : “makes up”, e.g. “women comprise a little more than half the population”

  457. “build a coalition”
    This whole line of argument continues to piss me off.
    About 10 million more people voted against Trump than voted for him. The (R)’s hold the House due to gerrymandering, and the Senate because Senate representation is, by intent, not correlated to population.
    I am hard pressed to think of a single policy, intention, priority, or plain English language statement that has come from a (R) in recent memory that I can endorse.
    McMullin made sense to me on a couple of points, but nobody voted for him.
    If there is something I am less motivated to do than “reach out” to Republicans or conservatives in general, I can’t think of what it is.
    They hold the levers, but they do not represent a majority of the people. If that makes them nervous, it damned well ought to.
    Hell no, I am not interested in “building a coalition” with Republicans. If they are interested in building one with me, they can put some things on the table and we’ll see where we stand.

  458. “build a coalition”
    This whole line of argument continues to piss me off.
    About 10 million more people voted against Trump than voted for him. The (R)’s hold the House due to gerrymandering, and the Senate because Senate representation is, by intent, not correlated to population.
    I am hard pressed to think of a single policy, intention, priority, or plain English language statement that has come from a (R) in recent memory that I can endorse.
    McMullin made sense to me on a couple of points, but nobody voted for him.
    If there is something I am less motivated to do than “reach out” to Republicans or conservatives in general, I can’t think of what it is.
    They hold the levers, but they do not represent a majority of the people. If that makes them nervous, it damned well ought to.
    Hell no, I am not interested in “building a coalition” with Republicans. If they are interested in building one with me, they can put some things on the table and we’ll see where we stand.

  459. russell, are you interested in building a coalition with people in Congress, whoever they are, of whatever party or affiliation, in order to amass enough votes to depose Trump?

  460. russell, are you interested in building a coalition with people in Congress, whoever they are, of whatever party or affiliation, in order to amass enough votes to depose Trump?

  463. If there is something I am less motivated to do than “reach out” to Republicans or conservatives in general, I can’t think of what it is.
    They hold the levers, but they do not represent a majority of the people.
    They may not represent a majority of the people. But, as you note, the way the world is means that they represent a majority of the seats in Congress.
    So it would seem that there is some reason to “reach out” to those among them who would be willing to work with you. At least until the world changes to the point where that is no longer necessary in order to do things the way you would prefer.

  464. If there is something I am less motivated to do than “reach out” to Republicans or conservatives in general, I can’t think of what it is.
    They hold the levers, but they do not represent a majority of the people.
    They may not represent a majority of the people. But, as you note, the way the world is means that they represent a majority of the seats in Congress.
    So it would seem that there is some reason to “reach out” to those among them who would be willing to work with you. At least until the world changes to the point where that is no longer necessary in order to do things the way you would prefer.

  467. The term “sore winners” comes to mind.
    The truth, I think, is that they know they are a minority and only in power due to a lucky confluence of factors.
    To wj’s point about the Republican party, this worries me. Without the crazy vote they could not win an election at all. Demographics are against them too. I think they see the writing on the wall. Desperate people take desperate measures.

  468. The term “sore winners” comes to mind.
    The truth, I think, is that they know they are a minority and only in power due to a lucky confluence of factors.
    To wj’s point about the Republican party, this worries me. Without the crazy vote they could not win an election at all. Demographics are against them too. I think they see the writing on the wall. Desperate people take desperate measures.

  469. GftNC, yes, but it doesn’t have to be that way. Time was, they could win elections without the crazies. And they could again — if they choose.
    It would, granted, require some compromises. After all, the crazies just need verbal feeding; you mostly don’t have to actually give them anything solid. So you can enact the legislation you want, blame someone (anyone) else for them not getting the stuff that you promised them, and you’re OK. Whereas, if you are interested in winning elections with non-crazies, you have to accept give and take.
    If I was on the RNC, I would be looking at the world this way:
    – We can get a bunch of stuff we want, while giving the crazies (the ones we know are crazy) nothing but words.
    – But if we do, eventually they will notice and turn on us. And they’re crazy.
    – Not to mention that, when the stories we have told our non-crazy supporters don’t work out (and we know all those jobs won’t magically come back), they will turn on us, too. Which means we’re permanently unemployed ourselves.
    – OR, we can ease up a little, throw the Democrats the occasional bone, and only get most of what we want. But survive more than a few more years. And build a party which can be competitive, even without the crazy vote.
    Can the RNC bring themselves to think that way? Don’t know. And they may even have drunk too much of the Kool-aid to be able to see the reality. But it does seem like it might be possible.

  470. GftNC, yes, but it doesn’t have to be that way. Time was, they could win elections without the crazies. And they could again — if they choose.
    It would, granted, require some compromises. After all, the crazies just need verbal feeding; you mostly don’t have to actually give them anything solid. So you can enact the legislation you want, blame someone (anyone) else for them not getting the stuff that you promised them, and you’re OK. Whereas, if you are interested in winning elections with non-crazies, you have to accept give and take.
    If I was on the RNC, I would be looking at the world this way:
    – We can get a bunch of stuff we want, while giving the crazies (the ones we know are crazy) nothing but words.
    – But if we do, eventually they will notice and turn on us. And they’re crazy.
    – Not to mention that, when the stories we have told our non-crazy supporters don’t work out (and we know all those jobs won’t magically come back), they will turn on us, too. Which means we’re permanently unemployed ourselves.
    – OR, we can ease up a little, throw the Democrats the occasional bone, and only get most of what we want. But survive more than a few more years. And build a party which can be competitive, even without the crazy vote.
    Can the RNC bring themselves to think that way? Don’t know. And they may even have drunk too much of the Kool-aid to be able to see the reality. But it does seem like it might be possible.

  477. I was just kidding with ya, lj. Not really, my politics and milieu are such a mismatch with most of the blogosphere that I actually am paranoid and oversensitive.
    Thanks for coming back bob, and again, apologies. Though my heart is pretty far on the left, looking around here in Japan and seeing how fractured it is here, I wonder what the point is.
    You and others may be interested in William Andrews blog about Japanese radicalism, counterculture and protest movements and his book Dissenting Japan: A History of Japanese Radicalism and Counterculture, from 1945 to Fukushima.
    https://throwoutyourbooks.wordpress.com/
    odaijini

  478. I was just kidding with ya, lj. Not really, my politics and milieu are such a mismatch with most of the blogosphere that I actually am paranoid and oversensitive.
    Thanks for coming back bob, and again, apologies. Though my heart is pretty far on the left, looking around here in Japan and seeing how fractured it is here, I wonder what the point is.
    You and others may be interested in William Andrews blog about Japanese radicalism, counterculture and protest movements and his book Dissenting Japan: A History of Japanese Radicalism and Counterculture, from 1945 to Fukushima.
    https://throwoutyourbooks.wordpress.com/
    odaijini

  479. So it would seem that there is some reason to “reach out” to those among them who would be willing to work with you.
    Again I ask….who are these people? Point them out. There may be a few GOP voters who are having buyers remorse, but it would appear there are none in the elected sphere.
    Simply put, there are not enough “sane” Republicans (i.e., voters) to make a substantial part of any anti-Trump coalition. The Dems need to broaden there appeal to those who did not, for any number of reasons, vote in the first place.
    Appealing to Republican voters is a waste of time. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that they voted for that asshole in the first place, and given a second chance, likely would do so again.

  480. So it would seem that there is some reason to “reach out” to those among them who would be willing to work with you.
    Again I ask….who are these people? Point them out. There may be a few GOP voters who are having buyers remorse, but it would appear there are none in the elected sphere.
    Simply put, there are not enough “sane” Republicans (i.e., voters) to make a substantial part of any anti-Trump coalition. The Dems need to broaden there appeal to those who did not, for any number of reasons, vote in the first place.
    Appealing to Republican voters is a waste of time. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that they voted for that asshole in the first place, and given a second chance, likely would do so again.

  481. Bobby, you might want to check out the folks I have seen labeled Trump-curious”. People who weren’t, and aren’t, invested in Trump. They just thought he might be good for the economy.
    That may well have been foolish of them. But it does mean that it’s entirely possible to appeal to them.

  482. Bobby, you might want to check out the folks I have seen labeled Trump-curious”. People who weren’t, and aren’t, invested in Trump. They just thought he might be good for the economy.
    That may well have been foolish of them. But it does mean that it’s entirely possible to appeal to them.

  483. my point was, for an alternative to happen, there has to be an issue to bring it into being.
    If you study the history of revolutions, you will find “it depends”.
    Depending on the ever deepening divide as between a small wealthy elite, their professional class hangers on, and the immiserated everybody else appears to be a mugs game.
    The issue of global warming may offer some hope as the widening and dawning realization that it is indeed real and an existential threat to the human race may (fingers crossed) bring the ‘sensible’ to the table and facilitate the squashing of the libertarian prion disease that has taken the GOP to the ideological brink largely funded by the massive wealth of the energy industry (Kochs, et al).
    The conservative “movement”, like some other movements, needs to be flushed down the toilet.

  484. my point was, for an alternative to happen, there has to be an issue to bring it into being.
    If you study the history of revolutions, you will find “it depends”.
    Depending on the ever deepening divide as between a small wealthy elite, their professional class hangers on, and the immiserated everybody else appears to be a mugs game.
    The issue of global warming may offer some hope as the widening and dawning realization that it is indeed real and an existential threat to the human race may (fingers crossed) bring the ‘sensible’ to the table and facilitate the squashing of the libertarian prion disease that has taken the GOP to the ideological brink largely funded by the massive wealth of the energy industry (Kochs, et al).
    The conservative “movement”, like some other movements, needs to be flushed down the toilet.

  485. You and others may be interested in William Andrews blog about Japanese radicalism
    Omigoodness, thank you. Yes, I am very interested in Japanese radicalism just finished a dissertation about the origins of Japanese socialism in Meiji. Such tragic courage and futility.
    And Throw Away Your Books, Rally in the Streets is a movie I plan to watch this year. Seen a couple Terayama movies, but not that one, and not enough shorts.

  486. You and others may be interested in William Andrews blog about Japanese radicalism
    Omigoodness, thank you. Yes, I am very interested in Japanese radicalism just finished a dissertation about the origins of Japanese socialism in Meiji. Such tragic courage and futility.
    And Throw Away Your Books, Rally in the Streets is a movie I plan to watch this year. Seen a couple Terayama movies, but not that one, and not enough shorts.

  487. Ok reaching out to republican voters is a waste of time. I agree wholeheartedly. But my position on this months long tirade is that we should be able to have a discussion about policy, the things he and eventually, maybe, the Congress are doing and agree or disagree on those.
    I will give one high profile example. I believe that within reason it is perfectly acceptable to find, detain and deport illegal immigrants.
    I base this not on my great dislike for immigrants, because I don’t have any dislike for immigrants. I have 4 nephews and 3 of them are married to exceptional women who happen to be Mexican. I grew up working every odd job I did with a primarily Mexican workforce. But I do have a firm dislike for the idea that somehow we should just pretend the illegal immigrants just haven’t done anything wrong. They broke the law on arrival.
    While the anecdotes about grandparents and children and every other conceivable heart breaking story effect me as much as anyone, or not quite I guess, the idea that a criminal should just get off free because they have a family doesn’t apply anywhere else in our society. We breakup families all the time to send people to prison. In that case the family has no choice or ability to go with them.
    So, the question is whether we are a nation of laws. Everyone wants the law to reign supreme, protect us from a madman, protect us from each other and those people that we perceive as dangerous. But Sanctuary cities in open defiance of the laws of the nation are fine, no problem. Buying illegal papers to work, no problem.
    And while they may be economically disadvantaged the vast majority of them are not refugees by any definition. We should take more of those.
    You want a reason people voted for Trump and would again? Start with a wall(or border protection that actually works) to stop more illegal immigrants and a reasonable,(although it will take a court to enforce reasonability), process to deport the ones that are here.
    And, as kind of a throw in in the thumbing the nose at the law vein, illegal immigrants staging a protest is actually pretty galling. Perhaps the only thing about the issue from either side that makes me angry. They don’t get a voice in us deciding what to do with them, they are criminals. The level of compassion that is applied to the solution is a gift, not something they get to demand.
    See now that’s a partisan view, but it has nothing to do with Trump per se.
    We have a President with no shame, completely self absorbed and proving daily he isn’t really that great a manager. I think he forgets that all those people at the FBI and CIA are his people. They are his team, if they suck it is because he does. So shut up and fix it if you think it is a problem. When you take over a company its a bad idea to start out by insulting and degrading the people you will need to do the job. That isn’t different in government.
    I don’t like him. I am sure I could get my 6 year old grandson to be more thoughtful.
    But most of the policies are just left and right views of issues we have been discussing for decades. It is exactly the same America I have lived in all my life.
    We just stopped being nice to each other while discussing them.

  488. Ok reaching out to republican voters is a waste of time. I agree wholeheartedly. But my position on this months long tirade is that we should be able to have a discussion about policy, the things he and eventually, maybe, the Congress are doing and agree or disagree on those.
    I will give one high profile example. I believe that within reason it is perfectly acceptable to find, detain and deport illegal immigrants.
    I base this not on my great dislike for immigrants, because I don’t have any dislike for immigrants. I have 4 nephews and 3 of them are married to exceptional women who happen to be Mexican. I grew up working every odd job I did with a primarily Mexican workforce. But I do have a firm dislike for the idea that somehow we should just pretend the illegal immigrants just haven’t done anything wrong. They broke the law on arrival.
    While the anecdotes about grandparents and children and every other conceivable heart breaking story effect me as much as anyone, or not quite I guess, the idea that a criminal should just get off free because they have a family doesn’t apply anywhere else in our society. We breakup families all the time to send people to prison. In that case the family has no choice or ability to go with them.
    So, the question is whether we are a nation of laws. Everyone wants the law to reign supreme, protect us from a madman, protect us from each other and those people that we perceive as dangerous. But Sanctuary cities in open defiance of the laws of the nation are fine, no problem. Buying illegal papers to work, no problem.
    And while they may be economically disadvantaged the vast majority of them are not refugees by any definition. We should take more of those.
    You want a reason people voted for Trump and would again? Start with a wall(or border protection that actually works) to stop more illegal immigrants and a reasonable,(although it will take a court to enforce reasonability), process to deport the ones that are here.
    And, as kind of a throw in in the thumbing the nose at the law vein, illegal immigrants staging a protest is actually pretty galling. Perhaps the only thing about the issue from either side that makes me angry. They don’t get a voice in us deciding what to do with them, they are criminals. The level of compassion that is applied to the solution is a gift, not something they get to demand.
    See now that’s a partisan view, but it has nothing to do with Trump per se.
    We have a President with no shame, completely self absorbed and proving daily he isn’t really that great a manager. I think he forgets that all those people at the FBI and CIA are his people. They are his team, if they suck it is because he does. So shut up and fix it if you think it is a problem. When you take over a company its a bad idea to start out by insulting and degrading the people you will need to do the job. That isn’t different in government.
    I don’t like him. I am sure I could get my 6 year old grandson to be more thoughtful.
    But most of the policies are just left and right views of issues we have been discussing for decades. It is exactly the same America I have lived in all my life.
    We just stopped being nice to each other while discussing them.

  489. So it would seem that there is some reason to “reach out” to those among them who would be willing to work with you
    If someone wants to come to me, fine. I’m not going to them. Halfway between me and the typical (R) voter or elected representative is not a place I find acceptable.
    ICE grabbed a woman who was waiting for f**ing brain surgery. Last I read her family had no idea where she was.
    That isn’t policy, it’s sadism. I want nothing to do with it.
    When the (R)’s stand up and deal with that s*t, a conversation might be possible.
    I don’t sit down with sadistic ghouls and pathological liars.
    They broke the law on arrival.
    You enter the US on a valid visa and don’t go home.
    Crime?
    You enter surreptitiously.
    Crime? What is the penalty per the US code?

  490. So it would seem that there is some reason to “reach out” to those among them who would be willing to work with you
    If someone wants to come to me, fine. I’m not going to them. Halfway between me and the typical (R) voter or elected representative is not a place I find acceptable.
    ICE grabbed a woman who was waiting for f**ing brain surgery. Last I read her family had no idea where she was.
    That isn’t policy, it’s sadism. I want nothing to do with it.
    When the (R)’s stand up and deal with that s*t, a conversation might be possible.
    I don’t sit down with sadistic ghouls and pathological liars.
    They broke the law on arrival.
    You enter the US on a valid visa and don’t go home.
    Crime?
    You enter surreptitiously.
    Crime? What is the penalty per the US code?

  491. Sanctuary cities in open defiance of the laws of the nation are fine
    What do you think it is that makes a place a “sanctuary city”?

  492. Sanctuary cities in open defiance of the laws of the nation are fine
    What do you think it is that makes a place a “sanctuary city”?

  495. Try again.
    Or not, I don’t care. But if you want to have a conversation about the issues, it behooves you to at least know what they are.
    If you want to talk about what “rule of law” looks like, you should at least know what the law actually says.
    Overstaying a visa is not a crminal offense, it is a civil offense. It *is not* a crime, and people who do it *are not* criminals for doing so.
    The penalty per the US Code for entering the country other than through a valid point of entry is a fine of $50 to $250.
    8 US Code pp 1325 and 1326. As Yogi said, you can look it up. You’re welcome.
    In general, being a “sanctuary city” means your city will not spend local money to enforce immigration law, and your cops will not make a practice of inquiring into the immigration status of people they deal with, especially people not involved in crimes.
    Why? Two reasons.
    1). Immigration enforcement is, per the Constitution, not in the scope of local jurisdictions
    2). Cops have to deal with immigrant communities daily, and their wotk is complicated when law-abiding and often legal folks in those communities are afraid of them
    That’s why.

  496. Try again.
    Or not, I don’t care. But if you want to have a conversation about the issues, it behooves you to at least know what they are.
    If you want to talk about what “rule of law” looks like, you should at least know what the law actually says.
    Overstaying a visa is not a crminal offense, it is a civil offense. It *is not* a crime, and people who do it *are not* criminals for doing so.
    The penalty per the US Code for entering the country other than through a valid point of entry is a fine of $50 to $250.
    8 US Code pp 1325 and 1326. As Yogi said, you can look it up. You’re welcome.
    In general, being a “sanctuary city” means your city will not spend local money to enforce immigration law, and your cops will not make a practice of inquiring into the immigration status of people they deal with, especially people not involved in crimes.
    Why? Two reasons.
    1). Immigration enforcement is, per the Constitution, not in the scope of local jurisdictions
    2). Cops have to deal with immigrant communities daily, and their wotk is complicated when law-abiding and often legal folks in those communities are afraid of them
    That’s why.

  497. But I do have a firm dislike for the idea that somehow we should just pretend the illegal immigrants just haven’t done anything wrong. They broke the law on arrival.
    Two things.
    First, those who were children who were brought by their parents. I don’t think that the law routinely punishes children (especially pre-teen children) for being involved in their parents’ crimes. Even for far more serious crimes than illegal immigration. So I just can’t accept deporting those children, absent some other serious crime.
    Second, while I can see deportation (getting sent home) in some cases, I can also see penalties well short of that in others. Someone who came here (illegally), but then did nothing felonious for years, might reasonably be given financial penalties (with time payment, even), a green card, and left be. It just isn’t at all clear, at least to me, what real benefit there would be, to the nation, to automatic deportation.
    If we’ve got law enforcement resources that we need to find a use for, we certainly have higher priorities than this. If someone thinks immigrants who have done nothing illegal, other than arrive/stay illegally, is our highest law enforcement priority, it’s up to them to make a case for that.

  498. But I do have a firm dislike for the idea that somehow we should just pretend the illegal immigrants just haven’t done anything wrong. They broke the law on arrival.
    Two things.
    First, those who were children who were brought by their parents. I don’t think that the law routinely punishes children (especially pre-teen children) for being involved in their parents’ crimes. Even for far more serious crimes than illegal immigration. So I just can’t accept deporting those children, absent some other serious crime.
    Second, while I can see deportation (getting sent home) in some cases, I can also see penalties well short of that in others. Someone who came here (illegally), but then did nothing felonious for years, might reasonably be given financial penalties (with time payment, even), a green card, and left be. It just isn’t at all clear, at least to me, what real benefit there would be, to the nation, to automatic deportation.
    If we’ve got law enforcement resources that we need to find a use for, we certainly have higher priorities than this. If someone thinks immigrants who have done nothing illegal, other than arrive/stay illegally, is our highest law enforcement priority, it’s up to them to make a case for that.

  499. To clarify, entering the US surreptitously *is also* a civil offense, per US Code.
    Not a crime, the folks who simply sneak in are not for that reason criminals.
    They’ve earned a civil penalty of up to $250.
    I have no issue with returning them to their home country. I have an issue with how they are treated, and with the degree of due process and basic human respect that they do or do not receive along the way.
    Regarding “being nice”, nice is as nice does.

  500. To clarify, entering the US surreptitously *is also* a civil offense, per US Code.
    Not a crime, the folks who simply sneak in are not for that reason criminals.
    They’ve earned a civil penalty of up to $250.
    I have no issue with returning them to their home country. I have an issue with how they are treated, and with the degree of due process and basic human respect that they do or do not receive along the way.
    Regarding “being nice”, nice is as nice does.

  501. Overstaying a visa is not a crminal offense, it is a civil offense.
    Exactly. Marty’s allies in the business community love them those low cost workers, and they, despite what “the law” says, are disinclined to be the policemen enforcing our immigration laws (i.e., it’s against the law to hire an illegal alien). But “sanctuary cities”???? Ayiiieeeee! Squash them like bugs.
    The incoherence of “conservative thought” is a wonder to behold.
    The thinking is along these lines:
    Either (a.) The WWC loathes immigrants because they are “not them” (racism); or (b.) They are taking “our” jobs (hey, go pick lettuce or hang sheetrock if you think that).
    So what is it?

  502. Overstaying a visa is not a crminal offense, it is a civil offense.
    Exactly. Marty’s allies in the business community love them those low cost workers, and they, despite what “the law” says, are disinclined to be the policemen enforcing our immigration laws (i.e., it’s against the law to hire an illegal alien). But “sanctuary cities”???? Ayiiieeeee! Squash them like bugs.
    The incoherence of “conservative thought” is a wonder to behold.
    The thinking is along these lines:
    Either (a.) The WWC loathes immigrants because they are “not them” (racism); or (b.) They are taking “our” jobs (hey, go pick lettuce or hang sheetrock if you think that).
    So what is it?

  503. I wonder if Marty is okay with his car automatically reporting him to the cops every time he goes over the speed limit. Because NO CRIME IS ACCEPTABLE, it seems.
    The fines for speeding are often larger than those for “entering the country other than through a valid entry point”, as cited above.

  504. I wonder if Marty is okay with his car automatically reporting him to the cops every time he goes over the speed limit. Because NO CRIME IS ACCEPTABLE, it seems.
    The fines for speeding are often larger than those for “entering the country other than through a valid entry point”, as cited above.

  505. “They’ve earned a civil penalty of up to $250”
    And a trip home. It’s a crime, a civil offense is breaking the law. So we don’t incarcerate them for entering illegally, except if they challenge the deportation. I certainly don’t tell the cop who pulls me over that I didn’t break the law, I pay the ticket.
    I love this though. This is a bog standard left versus right issue. Rule of law versus, well I honestly don’t have any idea what the other side is short of “I don’t like that law so we shouldn’t enforce it”. But it took three comments to call me a racist.
    No question of:
    1) should we make work visas easier to get?
    2) Is there any rational limit to what we should do to enforce it?
    Literally, no policy discussion of any kind.
    The response is: Its not really a crime and you’re a racist.
    Nope, I wouldn’t count on winning over any Republicans.

  506. “They’ve earned a civil penalty of up to $250”
    And a trip home. It’s a crime, a civil offense is breaking the law. So we don’t incarcerate them for entering illegally, except if they challenge the deportation. I certainly don’t tell the cop who pulls me over that I didn’t break the law, I pay the ticket.
    I love this though. This is a bog standard left versus right issue. Rule of law versus, well I honestly don’t have any idea what the other side is short of “I don’t like that law so we shouldn’t enforce it”. But it took three comments to call me a racist.
    No question of:
    1) should we make work visas easier to get?
    2) Is there any rational limit to what we should do to enforce it?
    Literally, no policy discussion of any kind.
    The response is: Its not really a crime and you’re a racist.
    Nope, I wouldn’t count on winning over any Republicans.

  507. Civil offenses are by definition not crimes.
    Why does parsing crap like this matter?
    Because you don’t want to end up handcuffed and cavity searched for driving 10 mph over the limit.
    I’m on record here and elsewhere of being in favor of issuing more visas.
    Don’t like illegals? Make them legal.
    Want to disuss that? Fine with me.
    As far as “winning over (R)’s” I just don’t give a crap anymore. People think what they want to think. IMO what a lot of (R)’s think is crap. Utter rubbish. They’ve had their heads buried in Fox and Limbaugh for so long they don’t know their asses from their elbows anymore. I can’t even imagine what a conversation with them would consist of.
    Think I’m joking? Wayne La Pierre says lefty protestors are all getting paid $1500/mo. How many people do you think believe him? Amillion? Ten million? Every person who believes him is a chump. What kind of conversation am I going to have with that person?
    I guess I could start with “Where’s my check?”, but I don’t think they’d get the joke.
    Not my circus.
    (R)’s had a good year this year. Next time at bat is less than 2 years away. If you think that Obama fired up the conservative base, wait until you see what Trump does for us coastal elites.
    Folks better chuck all those beaners out as fast as they can, they ain’t got forever to get it done.

  508. Civil offenses are by definition not crimes.
    Why does parsing crap like this matter?
    Because you don’t want to end up handcuffed and cavity searched for driving 10 mph over the limit.
    I’m on record here and elsewhere of being in favor of issuing more visas.
    Don’t like illegals? Make them legal.
    Want to disuss that? Fine with me.
    As far as “winning over (R)’s” I just don’t give a crap anymore. People think what they want to think. IMO what a lot of (R)’s think is crap. Utter rubbish. They’ve had their heads buried in Fox and Limbaugh for so long they don’t know their asses from their elbows anymore. I can’t even imagine what a conversation with them would consist of.
    Think I’m joking? Wayne La Pierre says lefty protestors are all getting paid $1500/mo. How many people do you think believe him? Amillion? Ten million? Every person who believes him is a chump. What kind of conversation am I going to have with that person?
    I guess I could start with “Where’s my check?”, but I don’t think they’d get the joke.
    Not my circus.
    (R)’s had a good year this year. Next time at bat is less than 2 years away. If you think that Obama fired up the conservative base, wait until you see what Trump does for us coastal elites.
    Folks better chuck all those beaners out as fast as they can, they ain’t got forever to get it done.

  509. Marty may be interested to know that by far the largest “illegal immigrant” nationality in Boston is … you guessed it … Irish. WTF does a wall on the Mexican border have to do with imposing The Rule of Law on nasty little furriners with fair hair and freckles? HellifIknow.
    Like russell, I am not interested in meeting crazy people half-way. Ditto for racists, chauvinists, or cultists. Not to mention the sort of masochists who long for Big Brother to soothe their wretched fee-fees. (Old joke: “Beat me!” implores the masochist. “No!” snarls the sadist.) “The Left” is free to disown me for being a hot-head who doesn’t think strategically.
    Now something for wj, who wrote: “States rights” meaning that states get to try out new ideas. Not so much “old ideas that we want to revert to”, but new ideas.
    Let’s get something straight: democracy is an old idea. Social Security is an old idea. The scientific method is an old idea. Some “old ideas” are worth reverting to, even after some “new” idea has been foisted on us by ideologues who insinuate that their demonstrably old ideas (The Market knows best, white people are smart, etc.) are better owning to their newness. If novelty were the key to wisdom, wisdom would be easier to come by than it is.
    And just show that I am conservative in at least one respect, I am with hsh linguistically: The Congress comprises the House and the Senate. The House and the Senate compose the Congress.
    And Tronald Dump is still a shining wit.
    –TP

  510. Marty may be interested to know that by far the largest “illegal immigrant” nationality in Boston is … you guessed it … Irish. WTF does a wall on the Mexican border have to do with imposing The Rule of Law on nasty little furriners with fair hair and freckles? HellifIknow.
    Like russell, I am not interested in meeting crazy people half-way. Ditto for racists, chauvinists, or cultists. Not to mention the sort of masochists who long for Big Brother to soothe their wretched fee-fees. (Old joke: “Beat me!” implores the masochist. “No!” snarls the sadist.) “The Left” is free to disown me for being a hot-head who doesn’t think strategically.
    Now something for wj, who wrote: “States rights” meaning that states get to try out new ideas. Not so much “old ideas that we want to revert to”, but new ideas.
    Let’s get something straight: democracy is an old idea. Social Security is an old idea. The scientific method is an old idea. Some “old ideas” are worth reverting to, even after some “new” idea has been foisted on us by ideologues who insinuate that their demonstrably old ideas (The Market knows best, white people are smart, etc.) are better owning to their newness. If novelty were the key to wisdom, wisdom would be easier to come by than it is.
    And just show that I am conservative in at least one respect, I am with hsh linguistically: The Congress comprises the House and the Senate. The House and the Senate compose the Congress.
    And Tronald Dump is still a shining wit.
    –TP

  511. 1) should we make work visas easier to get?
    Might be a good idea.
    2) Is there any rational limit to what we should do to enforce it?
    This is one of those cost/benefit things. How many 10’s of billions of dollars are you willing to spend? When we move these resources to “illegal immigrant enforcement” who should get the fiscal shaft? You don’t bother to mention.
    Literally, no policy discussion of any kind.
    They are here. Deal with it. What should our public policy be going forward?
    A policy is needed to address this reality. Ranting about their “legal” status is not a “policy discussion”. It is a rant. It is the only point you repeat…like a broken record.
    If you want to pony up the resources, raise taxes, and increase the size of the federal government to “throw them out”, just say so.
    If you have some other policy prescription….cough it up.
    Is that too much to ask?
    My policy: Let them become citizens. End of story.

  512. 1) should we make work visas easier to get?
    Might be a good idea.
    2) Is there any rational limit to what we should do to enforce it?
    This is one of those cost/benefit things. How many 10’s of billions of dollars are you willing to spend? When we move these resources to “illegal immigrant enforcement” who should get the fiscal shaft? You don’t bother to mention.
    Literally, no policy discussion of any kind.
    They are here. Deal with it. What should our public policy be going forward?
    A policy is needed to address this reality. Ranting about their “legal” status is not a “policy discussion”. It is a rant. It is the only point you repeat…like a broken record.
    If you want to pony up the resources, raise taxes, and increase the size of the federal government to “throw them out”, just say so.
    If you have some other policy prescription….cough it up.
    Is that too much to ask?
    My policy: Let them become citizens. End of story.

  513. Policy! You want policy! Hey, bankers and corporations routinely break the law and are sued by the federal government? What’s the routine penalty? They get a slap on the wrist, pay a paltry fine, “neither admit nor deny guilt” and go about their business to screw over the next sucker.
    Standard BS stuff.
    So let all the illegals pay a $5 fine, “neither admit nor deny guilt” and go about their business…the business of working like dogs for crap pay so folks like us can have cheap vegetables and clean public toilets.
    What’s not to like?

  514. Policy! You want policy! Hey, bankers and corporations routinely break the law and are sued by the federal government? What’s the routine penalty? They get a slap on the wrist, pay a paltry fine, “neither admit nor deny guilt” and go about their business to screw over the next sucker.
    Standard BS stuff.
    So let all the illegals pay a $5 fine, “neither admit nor deny guilt” and go about their business…the business of working like dogs for crap pay so folks like us can have cheap vegetables and clean public toilets.
    What’s not to like?

  515. The fines for speeding are often larger than those for “entering the country other than through a valid entry point”, as cited above.
    Yeah, sure. But after paying the fine, you and your car are not sent back to Seoul, Yokohama, Frankfurt, or Monterrey. You and it came here “legally”.
    Labor should be free to move across borders just like capital. If you are opposed to this, then I don’t want to hear any bullshit tirades about the primacy of “free markets”.
    Because I will then know you are a liar.

  516. The fines for speeding are often larger than those for “entering the country other than through a valid entry point”, as cited above.
    Yeah, sure. But after paying the fine, you and your car are not sent back to Seoul, Yokohama, Frankfurt, or Monterrey. You and it came here “legally”.
    Labor should be free to move across borders just like capital. If you are opposed to this, then I don’t want to hear any bullshit tirades about the primacy of “free markets”.
    Because I will then know you are a liar.

  517. Literally, no policy discussion of any kind.
    Let’s try this in another context. It’s 1929:
    The Left: Prohibition is not working.
    Marty: But the bootleggers and drinkers are breaking the law!!!!
    The Left: We should have sane alcohol consumption reform.
    Marty: They are breaking the law!!!
    The Left: Perhaps we should repeal Prohibition. It is not working.
    Marty: So then you do not believe in the rule of law? Gotcha’ you wimpy liberal.
    The Left: _______________
    fill in the blank.
    JFC

  518. Literally, no policy discussion of any kind.
    Let’s try this in another context. It’s 1929:
    The Left: Prohibition is not working.
    Marty: But the bootleggers and drinkers are breaking the law!!!!
    The Left: We should have sane alcohol consumption reform.
    Marty: They are breaking the law!!!
    The Left: Perhaps we should repeal Prohibition. It is not working.
    Marty: So then you do not believe in the rule of law? Gotcha’ you wimpy liberal.
    The Left: _______________
    fill in the blank.
    JFC

  521. I seem to have missed all the Marty rants against folks who smoke pot. I’ve heard it’s against the law, and that some localities (gasp!!!) do not enforce the legal sanctions. You know we are a nation of laws, right? I mean it’s all black and white in Marty world.
    Hang ’em high!
    Is that a policy? Concerned citizens want to know.

  522. I seem to have missed all the Marty rants against folks who smoke pot. I’ve heard it’s against the law, and that some localities (gasp!!!) do not enforce the legal sanctions. You know we are a nation of laws, right? I mean it’s all black and white in Marty world.
    Hang ’em high!
    Is that a policy? Concerned citizens want to know.

  523. Come off it, Bobby. Statements out of the Trump White House can’t reasonably be considered to represent either “conservative” or “thought”. Let alone both.

  524. Come off it, Bobby. Statements out of the Trump White House can’t reasonably be considered to represent either “conservative” or “thought”. Let alone both.

  525. The Trump White House is the leading edge of both GOP and conservative thought right now. It’s quite the thing to see

  526. The Trump White House is the leading edge of both GOP and conservative thought right now. It’s quite the thing to see

  531. What do you think it is that makes a place a “sanctuary city”?
    According to my understanding, a sanctuary city refuses to provide material or substantial assistance to immigration authorities.
    Big deal.
    I will start being impressed or enthusiastic when sanctuary cities get in the way of federal agents enforcing the law, in much the way midwestern towns got in the face of federal agents enforcing fugitive slave laws after Dredd Scott. When the coastal resistors start underground railroads or human shields, when a immigrant is pulled from a workplace and all the citizens therein start stomping the agent, when DHS and immigration agents are too terrified to go to work and do their jobs, when the liberals and Democrats start en masse breaking Trump and Sessions laws I will begin to have hope.

  532. What do you think it is that makes a place a “sanctuary city”?
    According to my understanding, a sanctuary city refuses to provide material or substantial assistance to immigration authorities.
    Big deal.
    I will start being impressed or enthusiastic when sanctuary cities get in the way of federal agents enforcing the law, in much the way midwestern towns got in the face of federal agents enforcing fugitive slave laws after Dredd Scott. When the coastal resistors start underground railroads or human shields, when a immigrant is pulled from a workplace and all the citizens therein start stomping the agent, when DHS and immigration agents are too terrified to go to work and do their jobs, when the liberals and Democrats start en masse breaking Trump and Sessions laws I will begin to have hope.

  535. It’s coming. Fast.
    The outrage for me isn’t the Feds pulling the old woman needing brain surgery from her hospital bed. The outrage is a hospital full of liberals who stood and let it happen.
    10,000 new agents. Sessions re-authorized private prisons concentration camps for profit. Soon Justice Gorsuch is gonna opine that Korematsu was darn good precedent.
    Next time at bat is less than 2 years away. If you think that Obama fired up the conservative base, wait until you see what Trump does for us coastal elites.
    Wait until the next elections, we’ll show them with shiny new laws. Maybe, after ten years of 65 Democratic Senators we can close down Gitmo. Meanwhile tens of thousands of the tired and poor and yearning masses are like…dead.
    Marty is the moderate conservative. Some here are liberals. I am the “violence is great I don’t care about your stinking law set it all on fire today” crazy left.
    Not very sociable anymore.

  536. It’s coming. Fast.
    The outrage for me isn’t the Feds pulling the old woman needing brain surgery from her hospital bed. The outrage is a hospital full of liberals who stood and let it happen.
    10,000 new agents. Sessions re-authorized private prisons concentration camps for profit. Soon Justice Gorsuch is gonna opine that Korematsu was darn good precedent.
    Next time at bat is less than 2 years away. If you think that Obama fired up the conservative base, wait until you see what Trump does for us coastal elites.
    Wait until the next elections, we’ll show them with shiny new laws. Maybe, after ten years of 65 Democratic Senators we can close down Gitmo. Meanwhile tens of thousands of the tired and poor and yearning masses are like…dead.
    Marty is the moderate conservative. Some here are liberals. I am the “violence is great I don’t care about your stinking law set it all on fire today” crazy left.
    Not very sociable anymore.

  537. But stupid scum; claiming to be a friend of the court while simultaneously displaying contempt for its rules is gratifyingly counterproductive.

  538. But stupid scum; claiming to be a friend of the court while simultaneously displaying contempt for its rules is gratifyingly counterproductive.

  541. My policy: Let them become citizens. End of story.
    That’s where I’m at as well.
    If it feels too much like rewarding bad behavior, make them pay a civil penalty in the form of community service as the price for entering illegally.
    And, people with felony convictions or other conspicuously bad behavior get a ticket back to where they came from. That’s pretty much always been the policy, I doubt you will find much disagreement there.
    The thing is, we *already have* an aggressive policy of identifying and deporting criminal aliens. The rate of illegal immigration is *already* declining.
    What Trump is adding is a degree of aggressive enforcement that extends enforcing the law to the point of cruelty. It has already put immigrant communities in a defensive and fearful position. That complicates the work of all of the institutions in the community that they deal with – police, medical professionals and hospitals, schools, any kind of plain old city or town business. It is *detrimental* to public safety and good order.
    I live in an area with a large immigrant community. *I don’t want ICE turning neighborhoods near me into fearful ghettos*. I want the immigrants where I live to continue to feel welcome and to feel they can be part of the community.
    It’s hard enough for people to assimilate without all of the ICE harassment.
    And requiring local law enforcement to do immigration work – which is Constitutionally a federal responsibility – redirects resources that are intended for, and needed for, other purposes.
    That’s my “liberal” response to the immigration issue. I don’t know if that wins any (R) hearts and minds, if not so be it.
    As far as other topics, my opening positions in any dialog are as follows:
    Build a wall: no
    Remove environmental regulations: no, let’s have more of them
    Remove FIRE sector regs: no, let’s have more of them, and let’s throw some of those bastards in jail for good measure
    Expand the carbon energy sector : no, instead have an industrial policy to move to alternativs and renewables
    Privatize public education : no
    Privatize entitlements : no
    Privatize public support for health insurance : no, and let’s have at least a public option if not public single payer
    Lower taxes on high earners : no
    Reduce the corporate tax : You can get rid of it, in return for taxing all forms of income the same.
    You get the drift. We don’t have the same understanding of what the country is about, we don’t want the same things, we don’t think the same things are good.
    Talk is fine, but I’m not going half way to anybody. You all can come to me.
    Enjoy the two years of total federal political domination. Try not to break too much of the furniture. All of the rest of us – the majority of the country – will be working at taking the levers out of your hands.
    We’ll be there in a couple of years to clean up another pile of (R) messes. Again.
    The (R)’s caught us napping. Probably won’t happen again anytime soon.
    Who knows, maybe the (R)’s will do a really good job. Best of luck.

  542. My policy: Let them become citizens. End of story.
    That’s where I’m at as well.
    If it feels too much like rewarding bad behavior, make them pay a civil penalty in the form of community service as the price for entering illegally.
    And, people with felony convictions or other conspicuously bad behavior get a ticket back to where they came from. That’s pretty much always been the policy, I doubt you will find much disagreement there.
    The thing is, we *already have* an aggressive policy of identifying and deporting criminal aliens. The rate of illegal immigration is *already* declining.
    What Trump is adding is a degree of aggressive enforcement that extends enforcing the law to the point of cruelty. It has already put immigrant communities in a defensive and fearful position. That complicates the work of all of the institutions in the community that they deal with – police, medical professionals and hospitals, schools, any kind of plain old city or town business. It is *detrimental* to public safety and good order.
    I live in an area with a large immigrant community. *I don’t want ICE turning neighborhoods near me into fearful ghettos*. I want the immigrants where I live to continue to feel welcome and to feel they can be part of the community.
    It’s hard enough for people to assimilate without all of the ICE harassment.
    And requiring local law enforcement to do immigration work – which is Constitutionally a federal responsibility – redirects resources that are intended for, and needed for, other purposes.
    That’s my “liberal” response to the immigration issue. I don’t know if that wins any (R) hearts and minds, if not so be it.
    As far as other topics, my opening positions in any dialog are as follows:
    Build a wall: no
    Remove environmental regulations: no, let’s have more of them
    Remove FIRE sector regs: no, let’s have more of them, and let’s throw some of those bastards in jail for good measure
    Expand the carbon energy sector : no, instead have an industrial policy to move to alternativs and renewables
    Privatize public education : no
    Privatize entitlements : no
    Privatize public support for health insurance : no, and let’s have at least a public option if not public single payer
    Lower taxes on high earners : no
    Reduce the corporate tax : You can get rid of it, in return for taxing all forms of income the same.
    You get the drift. We don’t have the same understanding of what the country is about, we don’t want the same things, we don’t think the same things are good.
    Talk is fine, but I’m not going half way to anybody. You all can come to me.
    Enjoy the two years of total federal political domination. Try not to break too much of the furniture. All of the rest of us – the majority of the country – will be working at taking the levers out of your hands.
    We’ll be there in a couple of years to clean up another pile of (R) messes. Again.
    The (R)’s caught us napping. Probably won’t happen again anytime soon.
    Who knows, maybe the (R)’s will do a really good job. Best of luck.

  543. A pattern of employing illegal immigrants is a criminal offence. So the priority should be to lock up farmers who routinely use illegal immigrant labour.
    Is that right Marty?

  544. A pattern of employing illegal immigrants is a criminal offence. So the priority should be to lock up farmers who routinely use illegal immigrant labour.
    Is that right Marty?

  545. The outrage is a hospital full of liberals who stood and let it happen.
    You can’t talk to a man with a shotgun in his hand.
    People aren’t at a point where they’re willing to take it to the mat and engage in violence and firefights with the feds.
    Unless of course cows are involved.
    But in general, not. It’d be good to keep it that way.
    When the wheels come all the way off, it’s hard to get them back on again.

  546. The outrage is a hospital full of liberals who stood and let it happen.
    You can’t talk to a man with a shotgun in his hand.
    People aren’t at a point where they’re willing to take it to the mat and engage in violence and firefights with the feds.
    Unless of course cows are involved.
    But in general, not. It’d be good to keep it that way.
    When the wheels come all the way off, it’s hard to get them back on again.

  547. The thing is, we *already have* an aggressive policy of identifying and deporting criminal aliens. The rate of illegal immigration is *already* declining.
    What Trump is adding is a degree of aggressive enforcement that extends enforcing the law to the point of cruelty.
    Why is this even an issue? The word “cruelty.”
    Studies have shown that immigrants (including undocumented people) pay more taxes than they cost in services. They make our economy more robust, and the cost of living less expensive. So why is this a priority for Trump supporters? It’s not love of the law – outrage over marijuana, as was noted above, is nonexistent with Marty.
    Marty, I wish you would answer why federal marijuana law enforcement isn’t your first priority. Instead, your priority is creating severe hardship for people who want to make a living doing jobs that you wouldn’t want.
    And as to russell’s list of policy items, I second that too. There’s no room for compromise with people who want to dismantle all that’s good in our country in order to create more inequality.

  548. The thing is, we *already have* an aggressive policy of identifying and deporting criminal aliens. The rate of illegal immigration is *already* declining.
    What Trump is adding is a degree of aggressive enforcement that extends enforcing the law to the point of cruelty.
    Why is this even an issue? The word “cruelty.”
    Studies have shown that immigrants (including undocumented people) pay more taxes than they cost in services. They make our economy more robust, and the cost of living less expensive. So why is this a priority for Trump supporters? It’s not love of the law – outrage over marijuana, as was noted above, is nonexistent with Marty.
    Marty, I wish you would answer why federal marijuana law enforcement isn’t your first priority. Instead, your priority is creating severe hardship for people who want to make a living doing jobs that you wouldn’t want.
    And as to russell’s list of policy items, I second that too. There’s no room for compromise with people who want to dismantle all that’s good in our country in order to create more inequality.

  549. When the wheels come all the way off, it’s hard to get them back on again.
    Why do people keep saying stuff like this?
    America ten years after the civil war or ten years after the depression strikes or ten years after the 60s weren’t anarchic dystopias. Or France ten years after the Commune or 68.
    The opposite is more true, that it takes sustained effort to keep from falling back into a default equilibrium.

  550. When the wheels come all the way off, it’s hard to get them back on again.
    Why do people keep saying stuff like this?
    America ten years after the civil war or ten years after the depression strikes or ten years after the 60s weren’t anarchic dystopias. Or France ten years after the Commune or 68.
    The opposite is more true, that it takes sustained effort to keep from falling back into a default equilibrium.

  551. Why do people keep saying stuff like this?
    you make a very good point. your examples are apt.
    noted.
    thanks bob!

  552. Why do people keep saying stuff like this?
    you make a very good point. your examples are apt.
    noted.
    thanks bob!

  559. bob mcmanus: The outrage is a hospital full of liberals who stood and let it happen.
    russell: You can’t talk to a man with a shotgun in his hand. People aren’t at a point where they’re willing to take it to the mat and engage in violence and firefights with the feds.
    I wonder about “the feds”, myself. Last I checked they are not a foreign army or an alien species, but workaday Americans earning their living as public servants.
    There may well be ideologues among them, of course, since they are a sample drawn from a population with a 27% crazification factor. They may even be a skewed sample. And I can easily believe that our armed public servants have let the knee-jerk fawning over their “bravery” by most of the populace (political correctness run amok, if you ask me) go to their heads.
    But by and large, you’d think most of them do the mean and stupid things they are ordered to do for the same reason that we ordinary job consumers do: fear of getting fired. At least I would like to think so. How naive is that?
    –TP

  560. bob mcmanus: The outrage is a hospital full of liberals who stood and let it happen.
    russell: You can’t talk to a man with a shotgun in his hand. People aren’t at a point where they’re willing to take it to the mat and engage in violence and firefights with the feds.
    I wonder about “the feds”, myself. Last I checked they are not a foreign army or an alien species, but workaday Americans earning their living as public servants.
    There may well be ideologues among them, of course, since they are a sample drawn from a population with a 27% crazification factor. They may even be a skewed sample. And I can easily believe that our armed public servants have let the knee-jerk fawning over their “bravery” by most of the populace (political correctness run amok, if you ask me) go to their heads.
    But by and large, you’d think most of them do the mean and stupid things they are ordered to do for the same reason that we ordinary job consumers do: fear of getting fired. At least I would like to think so. How naive is that?
    –TP

  561. What Trump is adding is a degree of aggressive enforcement that extends enforcing the law to the point of cruelty.
    I don’t think that’s quite accurate.
    As far as I can see, cruelty is exactly the point. His core supporters want, demand, that these people be treated cruelly. And President Trump is delivering. Whatever impact his actions have on levels of illegal immigration is pretty much incidental.

  562. What Trump is adding is a degree of aggressive enforcement that extends enforcing the law to the point of cruelty.
    I don’t think that’s quite accurate.
    As far as I can see, cruelty is exactly the point. His core supporters want, demand, that these people be treated cruelly. And President Trump is delivering. Whatever impact his actions have on levels of illegal immigration is pretty much incidental.

  563. Check out the Count’s link. For those of the you elsewhere, who may therefore be out of the loop, this is looking like a big deal. Even in parts far from the “sanctuary cities”.
    From the linked article:
    “We can’t cooperate with a law enforcement agency we cannot trust,” [Santa Cruz Chief of Police] Vogel said.
    That seems to be the view of both the leadership and the rank and file, and not just in Santa Cruz. They think the guys in Santa Cruz were lied to and set up by ICE, and they are NOT happy about it.
    The result well may be a bunch of de facto sanctuary cities. Not necessarily formal resolutions by city councils, but the same behavior by the police in the field.

  564. Check out the Count’s link. For those of the you elsewhere, who may therefore be out of the loop, this is looking like a big deal. Even in parts far from the “sanctuary cities”.
    From the linked article:
    “We can’t cooperate with a law enforcement agency we cannot trust,” [Santa Cruz Chief of Police] Vogel said.
    That seems to be the view of both the leadership and the rank and file, and not just in Santa Cruz. They think the guys in Santa Cruz were lied to and set up by ICE, and they are NOT happy about it.
    The result well may be a bunch of de facto sanctuary cities. Not necessarily formal resolutions by city councils, but the same behavior by the police in the field.

  567. France ten years after the Commune? I read Horne’s book on that– hundreds murdered by the Commune and tens of thousands by the forces of law and order putting it down. America ten years after the civil war went back to de facto slavery in the South.
    Our own Revolution saw loyalists expelled and slaves who fought for the British didn’t find a happy ending. Basically it turned out to be a dress rehearsal for the real revolution in the 1860’s and then the counter revolution won by the Klan. The first Russian revolution was followed by a second and then by a civil war and ultimately Stalin. The violent liberation movements that ended European colonialism were vicious on both sides and usually ended i with the liberated living under a homegrown dictatorship.
    Not a big fan of glorious liberating violence. Nonviolent protest movements have a better track record.

  568. France ten years after the Commune? I read Horne’s book on that– hundreds murdered by the Commune and tens of thousands by the forces of law and order putting it down. America ten years after the civil war went back to de facto slavery in the South.
    Our own Revolution saw loyalists expelled and slaves who fought for the British didn’t find a happy ending. Basically it turned out to be a dress rehearsal for the real revolution in the 1860’s and then the counter revolution won by the Klan. The first Russian revolution was followed by a second and then by a civil war and ultimately Stalin. The violent liberation movements that ended European colonialism were vicious on both sides and usually ended i with the liberated living under a homegrown dictatorship.
    Not a big fan of glorious liberating violence. Nonviolent protest movements have a better track record.

  571. FWIW – I’m opposed to violent political action because as Donald notes the track record is not so good, and as Tony notes your opponent is probably your neighbor, for some definition of neighbor.
    As mcmanus notes, you can in fact talk to the man with a shotgun in his hand.
    if you see somebody dragging somebody out of the hospital, you don’t have to shoot at them, you can just get in their way.
    make sure your insurance is paid up.

  572. FWIW – I’m opposed to violent political action because as Donald notes the track record is not so good, and as Tony notes your opponent is probably your neighbor, for some definition of neighbor.
    As mcmanus notes, you can in fact talk to the man with a shotgun in his hand.
    if you see somebody dragging somebody out of the hospital, you don’t have to shoot at them, you can just get in their way.
    make sure your insurance is paid up.

  575. Issa seems to love a good investigation, but he isn’t wrong. From AP:

    WASHINGTON — A Republican congressman has called for a special prosecutor to investigate whether Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election and was in touch with President Donald Trump’s team during the campaign.
    Rep. Darrell Issa (EYE’-suh) of California says it would be improper for Attorney General Jeff Sessions to lead the investigation.
    Issa made the comments Friday on HBO’s “Real Time with Bill Maher.”
    Issa said: “You’re right that you cannot have somebody — a friend of mine, Jeff Sessions — who was on the campaign and who is an appointee. You’re going to need to use the special prosecutor’s statute and office.”
    It’s unclear whether Issa would have any influence on Sessions. Issa supported Trump during the election, but barely held onto his own seat in November.

  576. Issa seems to love a good investigation, but he isn’t wrong. From AP:

    WASHINGTON — A Republican congressman has called for a special prosecutor to investigate whether Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election and was in touch with President Donald Trump’s team during the campaign.
    Rep. Darrell Issa (EYE’-suh) of California says it would be improper for Attorney General Jeff Sessions to lead the investigation.
    Issa made the comments Friday on HBO’s “Real Time with Bill Maher.”
    Issa said: “You’re right that you cannot have somebody — a friend of mine, Jeff Sessions — who was on the campaign and who is an appointee. You’re going to need to use the special prosecutor’s statute and office.”
    It’s unclear whether Issa would have any influence on Sessions. Issa supported Trump during the election, but barely held onto his own seat in November.

  577. Count, thanks for the Gorka link, I shall certainly follow it. Heading over to the other thread now for a catch-up after a florid day with the aged parent.

  578. Count, thanks for the Gorka link, I shall certainly follow it. Heading over to the other thread now for a catch-up after a florid day with the aged parent.

  579. … Doctor Gorka’s (sounds like the name of a villain on the old Man From U.N.C.L.E. TV series)…
    I tend to confuse the name with that of General Glauca the big baddie from Final Fantasy XV, Kingsglaive.

  580. … Doctor Gorka’s (sounds like the name of a villain on the old Man From U.N.C.L.E. TV series)…
    I tend to confuse the name with that of General Glauca the big baddie from Final Fantasy XV, Kingsglaive.

  581. I’m not going to pretend there aren’t some difficult issues here, but it it seems to me the Texas HS atheletic association (University Interscholastic League) position is just god awful for everyone involved even though the solution in this case seems simple and would resolve everyone’s issues. But alas.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_wrestler834pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.d62aae665c3e

  582. I’m not going to pretend there aren’t some difficult issues here, but it it seems to me the Texas HS atheletic association (University Interscholastic League) position is just god awful for everyone involved even though the solution in this case seems simple and would resolve everyone’s issues. But alas.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_wrestler834pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.d62aae665c3e

  583. Ugh, that’s a classic case of getting exactly the kind of result you (they) don’t want as a result of your actions. The bigots in Texas are no doubt tearing their hair out. Unless they are managing to be in denial to the point of ignoring the who thing.
    “The 16 girls who are in [Beggs’s] bracket have been put in a very, very unfair situation because of the grown-ups,” Baudhuin said.
    Pretty well says it all.

  584. Ugh, that’s a classic case of getting exactly the kind of result you (they) don’t want as a result of your actions. The bigots in Texas are no doubt tearing their hair out. Unless they are managing to be in denial to the point of ignoring the who thing.
    “The 16 girls who are in [Beggs’s] bracket have been put in a very, very unfair situation because of the grown-ups,” Baudhuin said.
    Pretty well says it all.

  589. If you read only one link this month, read GFTNC’s … twice.
    It explains all that we, including my decent conservative friends here and elsewhere who have kept their wits about them, are up against.
    Only one solution to this, people.
    And it’s not funding are own electoral psych-ops.
    You’ll never out-bot or out-spend these truly evil, anti-American filth.

  590. If you read only one link this month, read GFTNC’s … twice.
    It explains all that we, including my decent conservative friends here and elsewhere who have kept their wits about them, are up against.
    Only one solution to this, people.
    And it’s not funding are own electoral psych-ops.
    You’ll never out-bot or out-spend these truly evil, anti-American filth.

  593. Issa seems to love a good investigation, but he isn’t wrong
    Not my favorite guy, but I appreciate his due diligence here.
    Mercer is the guy who put Bannon and Trump together, and I believe is also involved along with Bannon in Cambridge Analytics.
    Big money, smart people. All the rest of us have is ourselves. It needs to be enough.

  594. Issa seems to love a good investigation, but he isn’t wrong
    Not my favorite guy, but I appreciate his due diligence here.
    Mercer is the guy who put Bannon and Trump together, and I believe is also involved along with Bannon in Cambridge Analytics.
    Big money, smart people. All the rest of us have is ourselves. It needs to be enough.

  597. One caveat I’d put on what GftNC’s link talks about – it refers to what’s being used as artificial intelligence, but it’s not. It’s more so machine learning; it’s “big data” – or more correctly, data analytics. It’s developing statistical models to predict what portions of statements, posts, articles, etc. will have a particular effect as defined by the researcher. I say this as someone with some passing familiarity; my last research I did as a burning-out academic prior to going on to do completely non-academic things like Soldiering was using those techniques to model why particular Slashdot posts would receive replies or not. It’s very much not AI; it’s statistical analysis of very large data sets of natural language to identify replicatable patterns in language used in a given setting. The “bots” who use that info to attempt to influence outcomes aren’t AIs in anything but a very broad sense; they’re natural language processing scripts using big data and statistical techniques to mimic the “recognizable” characteristics of human text while pressing the buttons their language technologist creators identified as being the statistically-significant triggers for certain outcomes. Text summarization research is more apropos here than any sort of traditional AI.
    to;dr – good article, but it gets some technical bits wrong in fairly typically pop-culture-y ways, and I expect some less technical readers might miss out on the degree to which this is humans doing laser-focused natural language processing and generation research. This is sophisticated predictive statistical data analysis. It’s Big Data and NLP; it’s pattern matching and text generation. It’s disparate technical tools being used by analysts who are the actual decision -making entities, rather than AI in any orthodox technical sense.

  598. One caveat I’d put on what GftNC’s link talks about – it refers to what’s being used as artificial intelligence, but it’s not. It’s more so machine learning; it’s “big data” – or more correctly, data analytics. It’s developing statistical models to predict what portions of statements, posts, articles, etc. will have a particular effect as defined by the researcher. I say this as someone with some passing familiarity; my last research I did as a burning-out academic prior to going on to do completely non-academic things like Soldiering was using those techniques to model why particular Slashdot posts would receive replies or not. It’s very much not AI; it’s statistical analysis of very large data sets of natural language to identify replicatable patterns in language used in a given setting. The “bots” who use that info to attempt to influence outcomes aren’t AIs in anything but a very broad sense; they’re natural language processing scripts using big data and statistical techniques to mimic the “recognizable” characteristics of human text while pressing the buttons their language technologist creators identified as being the statistically-significant triggers for certain outcomes. Text summarization research is more apropos here than any sort of traditional AI.
    to;dr – good article, but it gets some technical bits wrong in fairly typically pop-culture-y ways, and I expect some less technical readers might miss out on the degree to which this is humans doing laser-focused natural language processing and generation research. This is sophisticated predictive statistical data analysis. It’s Big Data and NLP; it’s pattern matching and text generation. It’s disparate technical tools being used by analysts who are the actual decision -making entities, rather than AI in any orthodox technical sense.

  599. russell, I think you’ll find, if you read the article, that it’s even more than we already knew about mercer, bannon and Cambridge analytica. NV’s distinction about AI notwithstanding, the guardian is following the money, the ideology and the methodology, and seeing how broad the scope of the mercer project really is. If you’vehad enough, fair enough, but the more that is known about this stuff the better in my opinion.

  600. russell, I think you’ll find, if you read the article, that it’s even more than we already knew about mercer, bannon and Cambridge analytica. NV’s distinction about AI notwithstanding, the guardian is following the money, the ideology and the methodology, and seeing how broad the scope of the mercer project really is. If you’vehad enough, fair enough, but the more that is known about this stuff the better in my opinion.

  601. thanks gftnc. it is a good and very thorough piece.
    what i think is this:
    the degree to which we are rogered is exactly the degree to which people let themselves be passive, uncritical consumers of information.
    the best response to the mercers of the world is to challenge people to question what they hear and think for themselves.
    some will, some won’t. depending on the sizes of the various “somes” we’ll either be screwed or we won’t.
    some amount of damage will be done no matter what, and folks should be ready to address that without overly freaking out.
    job #1 might be helping people to remember their own humanity, and that of their “enemies”.

  602. thanks gftnc. it is a good and very thorough piece.
    what i think is this:
    the degree to which we are rogered is exactly the degree to which people let themselves be passive, uncritical consumers of information.
    the best response to the mercers of the world is to challenge people to question what they hear and think for themselves.
    some will, some won’t. depending on the sizes of the various “somes” we’ll either be screwed or we won’t.
    some amount of damage will be done no matter what, and folks should be ready to address that without overly freaking out.
    job #1 might be helping people to remember their own humanity, and that of their “enemies”.

  603. Charles M Blow in today’s NYT:

    The press is the light that makes the roaches scatter.

    Thanks russell. I think you’re absolutely right, and the more people know about how they are being manipulated, hopefully the more questioning and thinking they will do. Plus I admit I am somewhat cheered by Delaware.

  604. Charles M Blow in today’s NYT:

    The press is the light that makes the roaches scatter.

    Thanks russell. I think you’re absolutely right, and the more people know about how they are being manipulated, hopefully the more questioning and thinking they will do. Plus I admit I am somewhat cheered by Delaware.

  607. lj, you beat me to it by a gnat’s eyelash (Pittsburgh Pirate announcer Bob Prince coined that phrase a long time ago).
    Seems Gorka and company are very special snowflakes as the public eye stares them down.
    I don’t know how they are going to handle the gunfire when it starts.

  608. lj, you beat me to it by a gnat’s eyelash (Pittsburgh Pirate announcer Bob Prince coined that phrase a long time ago).
    Seems Gorka and company are very special snowflakes as the public eye stares them down.
    I don’t know how they are going to handle the gunfire when it starts.

  617. Turns out the Egyptian scholar, who among many others was harassed and intimidated at the Soviet-American border, is Jewish.
    http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/2/26/1637985/-Open-thread-for-night-owls-Trump-s-anti-immigrant-fervor-continues-to-generate-airport-chaos
    Soon, when I’m President, I will issue an executive order telling our border agents to hand out American citizenship papers to folks like the ones jackbooted in airports as reward for improving the sick, polluted so-called American gene pool merely by visiting the United States.
    The catch will be that ten republicans (we’ll start at the top with specific names and pick randomly as we drill down to the filth who voted for the top ones) will be rounded up, shackled, and deported at gunpoint from my country for each decent human being from elsewhere we allow in.

  618. Turns out the Egyptian scholar, who among many others was harassed and intimidated at the Soviet-American border, is Jewish.
    http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/2/26/1637985/-Open-thread-for-night-owls-Trump-s-anti-immigrant-fervor-continues-to-generate-airport-chaos
    Soon, when I’m President, I will issue an executive order telling our border agents to hand out American citizenship papers to folks like the ones jackbooted in airports as reward for improving the sick, polluted so-called American gene pool merely by visiting the United States.
    The catch will be that ten republicans (we’ll start at the top with specific names and pick randomly as we drill down to the filth who voted for the top ones) will be rounded up, shackled, and deported at gunpoint from my country for each decent human being from elsewhere we allow in.

  621. “The catch will be that ten republicans (we’ll start at the top with specific names and pick randomly as we drill down to the filth who voted for the top ones) will be rounded up, shackled, and deported at gunpoint from my country for each decent human being from elsewhere we allow in.”
    Will anyone take them?
    Yeah, silly question. What good is it to have a Marianas Trench if you’re not going to use it?

  622. “The catch will be that ten republicans (we’ll start at the top with specific names and pick randomly as we drill down to the filth who voted for the top ones) will be rounded up, shackled, and deported at gunpoint from my country for each decent human being from elsewhere we allow in.”
    Will anyone take them?
    Yeah, silly question. What good is it to have a Marianas Trench if you’re not going to use it?

  627. HIM this morning:
    “Now, I have to tell you, it’s an unbelievably complex subject. Nobody knew health care could be so complicated.”
    That’s what happens when memos to you from the nobodies (the ones too f*cking stupid and lazy to read the ACA Act back in the day) shilling for you are limited to one page of 20-point scrawling in crayon.

  628. HIM this morning:
    “Now, I have to tell you, it’s an unbelievably complex subject. Nobody knew health care could be so complicated.”
    That’s what happens when memos to you from the nobodies (the ones too f*cking stupid and lazy to read the ACA Act back in the day) shilling for you are limited to one page of 20-point scrawling in crayon.

  629. Take them away, the “bad” people, those over there and when it makes me feel good that you take them away. But not the “good” people, they live here, I like them.
    Fnkcing consequences, how do they work?

  630. Take them away, the “bad” people, those over there and when it makes me feel good that you take them away. But not the “good” people, they live here, I like them.
    Fnkcing consequences, how do they work?

  631. On skepticism and trust.
    The issue of skepticism and trust has come up a lot in comments here for years, not only since “fake news” became such an item of interest, but also in the question of when to trust government and other institutions.

  632. On skepticism and trust.
    The issue of skepticism and trust has come up a lot in comments here for years, not only since “fake news” became such an item of interest, but also in the question of when to trust government and other institutions.

  633. Count: The catch will be that ten republicans (we’ll start at the top with specific names and pick randomly as we drill down to the filth who voted for the top ones) will be rounded up, shackled, and deported at gunpoint from my country for each decent human being from elsewhere we allow in.
    One serious problem with this approach: to deport them, you have to have somewhere to deport them to. That means, someone else has to be willing to take them. And who would? (Putin may be happy with having the useful idiots here. But he sure wouldn’t want them in his back yard.)

  634. Count: The catch will be that ten republicans (we’ll start at the top with specific names and pick randomly as we drill down to the filth who voted for the top ones) will be rounded up, shackled, and deported at gunpoint from my country for each decent human being from elsewhere we allow in.
    One serious problem with this approach: to deport them, you have to have somewhere to deport them to. That means, someone else has to be willing to take them. And who would? (Putin may be happy with having the useful idiots here. But he sure wouldn’t want them in his back yard.)

  635. And then I see that Snarki made exactly that point. I should read all the way to the end before commenting further….

  636. And then I see that Snarki made exactly that point. I should read all the way to the end before commenting further….

  639. countme @ 11:47 above..I am shocked I tell you, shocked.
    But wj is there to tell me that the Trump administration does not speak for “real” or “thoughtful” conservatives.
    I guess those creatures could comfortably all fit in my living room. I’ll keep the lights on for you, wj. And free beer!

  640. countme @ 11:47 above..I am shocked I tell you, shocked.
    But wj is there to tell me that the Trump administration does not speak for “real” or “thoughtful” conservatives.
    I guess those creatures could comfortably all fit in my living room. I’ll keep the lights on for you, wj. And free beer!

  641. Aren’t there a few countries where slavery is still a thing and where these ilk could be put to some use?
    I mean, we managed to import hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Africans into the country in less than luxury cruise style, so what would be so difficult to reverse the process using republicans as chattel?
    I’d be willing to fund a program to purchase a fleet of luxury cruise liners, dry dock them while they are re-purposed by knocking out the cabins, dining rooms, ballrooms, and amusement centers (we’ll keep the water slides but direct them to deposit folks overboard for Crew Amusement Nights in the horse latitudes) and welding rings to the inside of the hulls throughout to which the snowflakes’ chains could be attached.
    We could splurge and throw some hay down for the comfort factor.
    And since trump and company have gotten rid of Obama’s executive order prohibiting the bribery of foreign public officials, it should be easy peasy to convince other countries to “accept” these scum and their children, the latter of whom I understand are well-fattened and tasty.
    We’ll make the ex-patriots-to-be pay for their transport out of here by seizing and selling off their assets.

  642. Aren’t there a few countries where slavery is still a thing and where these ilk could be put to some use?
    I mean, we managed to import hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Africans into the country in less than luxury cruise style, so what would be so difficult to reverse the process using republicans as chattel?
    I’d be willing to fund a program to purchase a fleet of luxury cruise liners, dry dock them while they are re-purposed by knocking out the cabins, dining rooms, ballrooms, and amusement centers (we’ll keep the water slides but direct them to deposit folks overboard for Crew Amusement Nights in the horse latitudes) and welding rings to the inside of the hulls throughout to which the snowflakes’ chains could be attached.
    We could splurge and throw some hay down for the comfort factor.
    And since trump and company have gotten rid of Obama’s executive order prohibiting the bribery of foreign public officials, it should be easy peasy to convince other countries to “accept” these scum and their children, the latter of whom I understand are well-fattened and tasty.
    We’ll make the ex-patriots-to-be pay for their transport out of here by seizing and selling off their assets.

  645. One serious problem with this approach: to deport them, you have to have somewhere to deport them to.
    Peter Thiel has some floating platforms of libertarian goodness somewhere out there in the big blue ocean where they might feel right at home.
    No regulations, no big brother, no oppressive government breathing down your neck.
    No food or fresh water either, but they’re all self-made entrepreneurial brainiacs, they’ll figure it out.

  646. One serious problem with this approach: to deport them, you have to have somewhere to deport them to.
    Peter Thiel has some floating platforms of libertarian goodness somewhere out there in the big blue ocean where they might feel right at home.
    No regulations, no big brother, no oppressive government breathing down your neck.
    No food or fresh water either, but they’re all self-made entrepreneurial brainiacs, they’ll figure it out.

  649. Count, thanks for posting the link to the Laurie Penny piece on Milo Y from cleek’s blog. It’s good, I think, and an interesting follow-up to her piece on the same subject we discussed here a few months ago (at least it seems that long). I checked into cleek’s place earlier, he must have posted this after that. I too miss him here, and wish he would come back, but he seemed pretty happy to be giving this sort of political agony a wide berth….

  650. Count, thanks for posting the link to the Laurie Penny piece on Milo Y from cleek’s blog. It’s good, I think, and an interesting follow-up to her piece on the same subject we discussed here a few months ago (at least it seems that long). I checked into cleek’s place earlier, he must have posted this after that. I too miss him here, and wish he would come back, but he seemed pretty happy to be giving this sort of political agony a wide berth….

  657. This is kind of a follow-up to Marty’s call for reasonable and kindly discussion.
    I was driving to work and Pat McCrory, the former governor of NC, was on the radio. The topic was the whole bathroom bill thing.
    He explained all of the reasons why he found the “use the facility that matches the gender you identify as” thing problematic. Not so bad for bathrooms, but really problematic for showers and locker rooms. What do we mean when we talk about “gender”. How will this play out in already difficult settings like prisons.
    He also pointed out that he was quite firm about not allowing discrimination in hiring, housing, etc. based on any of that stuff. I appreciated him being clear about that.
    I didn’t necessarily agree with his point of view, but everything he said seemed reasonable. Mostly he seemed to be trying to get people to think about how this was all going to actually play out, in real life. Which is always a good thing to consider.
    Then the conversation turned to HB2, the bill that was actually passed as a response the original Charlotte anti-discrimination laws. I think it’s fair to describe HB2 as one big F-U to the horrible snotty liberal elites of Charlotte.
    Somehow, when translated into black-letter law, all the reasonable points turned into “f*** you hippie”.
    And I somehow lost interest in McRory’s reasonable points.
    That’s kind of a snapshot of my experience of public life since probably Reagan, certainly since 9/11 and the Bush/Cheney weirdness.
    Why can’t we talk together like reasonable people? Because somebody always has to punch the hippie. It’s like the cherry on top. It’s just not the complete package, otherwise.
    To be clear, none of this is directed toward Marty, the radio thing just reminded me of his wish for some kind of reasonable conversation.
    Present company excepted, I basically just don’t believe most conservatives when they say they want a conversation. They just seem resentful and angry and fearful and vindictive, looking for revenge against people who aren’t like them and who they feel threatened by.
    I wish I didn’t think that, but I do think that.
    So I don’t really know where we go from here. My only real goal is to try to keep Trump and his pals from breaking every worthwhile thing this country has spent blood sweat and tears to build over the last 200+ years.
    I don’t know how it will all turn out. It’s not going to be a pretty few years.

  658. This is kind of a follow-up to Marty’s call for reasonable and kindly discussion.
    I was driving to work and Pat McCrory, the former governor of NC, was on the radio. The topic was the whole bathroom bill thing.
    He explained all of the reasons why he found the “use the facility that matches the gender you identify as” thing problematic. Not so bad for bathrooms, but really problematic for showers and locker rooms. What do we mean when we talk about “gender”. How will this play out in already difficult settings like prisons.
    He also pointed out that he was quite firm about not allowing discrimination in hiring, housing, etc. based on any of that stuff. I appreciated him being clear about that.
    I didn’t necessarily agree with his point of view, but everything he said seemed reasonable. Mostly he seemed to be trying to get people to think about how this was all going to actually play out, in real life. Which is always a good thing to consider.
    Then the conversation turned to HB2, the bill that was actually passed as a response the original Charlotte anti-discrimination laws. I think it’s fair to describe HB2 as one big F-U to the horrible snotty liberal elites of Charlotte.
    Somehow, when translated into black-letter law, all the reasonable points turned into “f*** you hippie”.
    And I somehow lost interest in McRory’s reasonable points.
    That’s kind of a snapshot of my experience of public life since probably Reagan, certainly since 9/11 and the Bush/Cheney weirdness.
    Why can’t we talk together like reasonable people? Because somebody always has to punch the hippie. It’s like the cherry on top. It’s just not the complete package, otherwise.
    To be clear, none of this is directed toward Marty, the radio thing just reminded me of his wish for some kind of reasonable conversation.
    Present company excepted, I basically just don’t believe most conservatives when they say they want a conversation. They just seem resentful and angry and fearful and vindictive, looking for revenge against people who aren’t like them and who they feel threatened by.
    I wish I didn’t think that, but I do think that.
    So I don’t really know where we go from here. My only real goal is to try to keep Trump and his pals from breaking every worthwhile thing this country has spent blood sweat and tears to build over the last 200+ years.
    I don’t know how it will all turn out. It’s not going to be a pretty few years.

  659. Then the conversation turned to HB2, the bill that was actually passed as a response the original Charlotte anti-discrimination laws. I think it’s fair to describe HB2 as one big F-U to the horrible snotty liberal elites of Charlotte.
    Another example of local government being a “laboratory of democracy” not really being accepted when R’s run the larger government.
    Also, speaking of Marty, he never did answer his apparently inconsistent views of “rule of law!” with regard to marijuana use versus people coming to the US to do much wanted work (and who pay income tax, and be heroes in their So. Ill. communities, etc.).

  660. Then the conversation turned to HB2, the bill that was actually passed as a response the original Charlotte anti-discrimination laws. I think it’s fair to describe HB2 as one big F-U to the horrible snotty liberal elites of Charlotte.
    Another example of local government being a “laboratory of democracy” not really being accepted when R’s run the larger government.
    Also, speaking of Marty, he never did answer his apparently inconsistent views of “rule of law!” with regard to marijuana use versus people coming to the US to do much wanted work (and who pay income tax, and be heroes in their So. Ill. communities, etc.).

  661. trump: the NYT intent is so evil and so bad”
    That’s a direct order from the White House to their brownshirts to destroy more Jewish cemeteries.

  662. trump: the NYT intent is so evil and so bad”
    That’s a direct order from the White House to their brownshirts to destroy more Jewish cemeteries.

  665. ….I basically just don’t believe most conservatives when they say they want a conversation.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative willing to agree that Roe is a reasonable compromise on abortion.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative willing to raise taxes for the things they say they want to government to do.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who can live with our puny affirmative action efforts.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who believes deep in their heart that the owning class has too much power vis a vis the working people.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who doesn’t just lose their shit about “press one for English. Press two for espanol.”
    I have yet to see Republicans rise up in righteous anger and throw one of their own out of the White House.
    Maybe I just don’t get around.

  666. ….I basically just don’t believe most conservatives when they say they want a conversation.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative willing to agree that Roe is a reasonable compromise on abortion.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative willing to raise taxes for the things they say they want to government to do.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who can live with our puny affirmative action efforts.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who believes deep in their heart that the owning class has too much power vis a vis the working people.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who doesn’t just lose their shit about “press one for English. Press two for espanol.”
    I have yet to see Republicans rise up in righteous anger and throw one of their own out of the White House.
    Maybe I just don’t get around.

  667. I would like to see one of our thoughtful conservatives respond to this piece and provide a thoughtful rebuttal without mentioning once “the power of teacher unions”.

  668. I would like to see one of our thoughtful conservatives respond to this piece and provide a thoughtful rebuttal without mentioning once “the power of teacher unions”.

  673. I can’t resist having a go at this. *I* think I’m a conservative, so I meet the “self-styled” criteria. Even if someone wants to argue that I’m not really one.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative willing to agree that Roe is a reasonable compromise on abortion.
    I would say that abortion, while never a good solution, is sometimes the least bad solution. And so should be legal, subject to restrictions only when the fetus is at the point of being viable outside the womb.
    That said, Roe was a disaster for the cause of legalization — witness the fact that we are still fighting over it half a century later. Not to mention that the legal reasoning in the decision looks, to my non-lawyer’s eye, like garbage.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative willing to raise taxes for the things they say they want to government to do.
    Government programs have to be paid for. If you aren’t willing to be taxed to do so, then either you don’t really care enough about doing it, or you are a fool (and/or a massive hypocrite).
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who can live with our puny affirmative action efforts.
    I dislike some of our affirmative action programs. In some cases because I think they are ineffective. Or even counterproductive. In other cases because I question whether they target the right group. I don’t question that affirmative action is needed some cases. Whether we are making the right efforts is another story.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who believes deep in their heart that the owning class has too much power vis a vis the working people.
    Personally, I’d like to see an estate tax on the order of 90% on anything above 2 million dollars per heir. (I’m open to a different threshold. But not one above $5 mil.) Don’t know if that addresses your point exactly. But it would substantially change the situation.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who doesn’t just lose their shit about “press one for English. Press two for espanol.”
    Businesses offer a Spanish language because it makes business sense for them. Anybody who objects to this example of the market at work isn’t a real conservative IMHO.
    As for government doing the same, it seems to me that government exists to, among other things, provide services to the public. There is no obvious reason to make obtaining those services unnecessary difficult. Including, for citizens who are more comfortable in one, providing election materials in other languages.
    First generation citizens often are in that situation. Their children are not; and their grandchildren will be as monolingual in English as other Americans. That’s been true for at least a couple of centuries, and isn’t changing today.
    I have yet to see Republicans rise up in righteous anger and throw one of their own out of the White House.
    I haven’t seen that yet either. But the critical part of that sentence may be “yet”. Certainly there are some of us who are calling for exactly that. Still a minority, but not nonexistent.

  674. I can’t resist having a go at this. *I* think I’m a conservative, so I meet the “self-styled” criteria. Even if someone wants to argue that I’m not really one.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative willing to agree that Roe is a reasonable compromise on abortion.
    I would say that abortion, while never a good solution, is sometimes the least bad solution. And so should be legal, subject to restrictions only when the fetus is at the point of being viable outside the womb.
    That said, Roe was a disaster for the cause of legalization — witness the fact that we are still fighting over it half a century later. Not to mention that the legal reasoning in the decision looks, to my non-lawyer’s eye, like garbage.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative willing to raise taxes for the things they say they want to government to do.
    Government programs have to be paid for. If you aren’t willing to be taxed to do so, then either you don’t really care enough about doing it, or you are a fool (and/or a massive hypocrite).
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who can live with our puny affirmative action efforts.
    I dislike some of our affirmative action programs. In some cases because I think they are ineffective. Or even counterproductive. In other cases because I question whether they target the right group. I don’t question that affirmative action is needed some cases. Whether we are making the right efforts is another story.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who believes deep in their heart that the owning class has too much power vis a vis the working people.
    Personally, I’d like to see an estate tax on the order of 90% on anything above 2 million dollars per heir. (I’m open to a different threshold. But not one above $5 mil.) Don’t know if that addresses your point exactly. But it would substantially change the situation.
    I have yet to meet a self-styled conservative who doesn’t just lose their shit about “press one for English. Press two for espanol.”
    Businesses offer a Spanish language because it makes business sense for them. Anybody who objects to this example of the market at work isn’t a real conservative IMHO.
    As for government doing the same, it seems to me that government exists to, among other things, provide services to the public. There is no obvious reason to make obtaining those services unnecessary difficult. Including, for citizens who are more comfortable in one, providing election materials in other languages.
    First generation citizens often are in that situation. Their children are not; and their grandchildren will be as monolingual in English as other Americans. That’s been true for at least a couple of centuries, and isn’t changing today.
    I have yet to see Republicans rise up in righteous anger and throw one of their own out of the White House.
    I haven’t seen that yet either. But the critical part of that sentence may be “yet”. Certainly there are some of us who are calling for exactly that. Still a minority, but not nonexistent.

  675. I would like to see one of our thoughtful conservatives respond to this piece and provide a thoughtful rebuttal without mentioning once “the power of teacher unions”
    My main rebuttal would be that neither side of the argument is convincing. Take a look at how the Finns do education. It’s unlike what either side claims is the solution. Yet they have the best outcomes in the OECD. Might be worth a look. At least for those whose priority is actually educating kids.

  676. I would like to see one of our thoughtful conservatives respond to this piece and provide a thoughtful rebuttal without mentioning once “the power of teacher unions”
    My main rebuttal would be that neither side of the argument is convincing. Take a look at how the Finns do education. It’s unlike what either side claims is the solution. Yet they have the best outcomes in the OECD. Might be worth a look. At least for those whose priority is actually educating kids.

  679. I do not call myself a conservative, and I’d say the overlap between myself and wj is probably about 85% or maybe a bit higher.
    Points of difference:
    I actually think Roe was a good decision. The opinion wanders through what are, shall we say, unusual sources for legal precedent. But the actual substance of the decision – where it all lands – is IMO Solomonic.
    I suppose the SCOTUS could have simply decided not to hear the case. Having chosen to hear it at all, IMO they did a remarkable job of finding the best available middle ground.
    The reason Roe is problematic is not, IMO, the substance of the decision, but the fact that it became the law of the land via the SCOTUS rather the Congress.
    I recognize why people object to that, and trust me when I say People Like Me have our own not-so-short list of similar complaints. However, under our system of government, that is actually one of the ways in which laws come to be. Or, more accurately, one of the ways in which laws are found to be unacceptable.
    As an aside, like most people I know a number of folks who have ended a pregnancy via abortion. I include both men and women here, there is always a man involved, even if primarily as a contributor to the circumstances that make the abortion seem necessary.
    I know no-one – not one person – who considers abortion a “good” solution. It is, in every case I am aware of, a response to some kind of failure and an occasion of great sadness.
    Nobody is “pro abortion”. Many people insist that it needs to be available as one of the choices for people who find themselves not well placed to bring a child into the world. For any of a very wide range of reasons.
    The other point of difference is that, in fact, the (R)’s did rise up and chuck out one of their own. His name was Richard Milhous Nixon. His ouster was, significantly, bi-partisan.
    Those points aside, I find nothing to object to in any of wj’s positions.
    From bobbyp’s excellent cite on education:

    Additionally, the United States has a very high child poverty rate. The 2012 UNICEF report listed The United States’ child poverty rate as 34th out of 35 “economically advanced” countries, with only Romania scoring lower

    My bolds.
    The thing that breaks my heart about this country, over and over and over again, is that we do not love and care for our own. Or, we do, but the circle we draw to define “our own” is so small that it excludes far too many, nearly all, of our neighbors.
    We do not care for our own. That fact, IMO, is sufficient to explain nearly all of the stress and dysfunction we experience as a nation and a society.
    That should shame us, every day.

  680. I do not call myself a conservative, and I’d say the overlap between myself and wj is probably about 85% or maybe a bit higher.
    Points of difference:
    I actually think Roe was a good decision. The opinion wanders through what are, shall we say, unusual sources for legal precedent. But the actual substance of the decision – where it all lands – is IMO Solomonic.
    I suppose the SCOTUS could have simply decided not to hear the case. Having chosen to hear it at all, IMO they did a remarkable job of finding the best available middle ground.
    The reason Roe is problematic is not, IMO, the substance of the decision, but the fact that it became the law of the land via the SCOTUS rather the Congress.
    I recognize why people object to that, and trust me when I say People Like Me have our own not-so-short list of similar complaints. However, under our system of government, that is actually one of the ways in which laws come to be. Or, more accurately, one of the ways in which laws are found to be unacceptable.
    As an aside, like most people I know a number of folks who have ended a pregnancy via abortion. I include both men and women here, there is always a man involved, even if primarily as a contributor to the circumstances that make the abortion seem necessary.
    I know no-one – not one person – who considers abortion a “good” solution. It is, in every case I am aware of, a response to some kind of failure and an occasion of great sadness.
    Nobody is “pro abortion”. Many people insist that it needs to be available as one of the choices for people who find themselves not well placed to bring a child into the world. For any of a very wide range of reasons.
    The other point of difference is that, in fact, the (R)’s did rise up and chuck out one of their own. His name was Richard Milhous Nixon. His ouster was, significantly, bi-partisan.
    Those points aside, I find nothing to object to in any of wj’s positions.
    From bobbyp’s excellent cite on education:

    Additionally, the United States has a very high child poverty rate. The 2012 UNICEF report listed The United States’ child poverty rate as 34th out of 35 “economically advanced” countries, with only Romania scoring lower

    My bolds.
    The thing that breaks my heart about this country, over and over and over again, is that we do not love and care for our own. Or, we do, but the circle we draw to define “our own” is so small that it excludes far too many, nearly all, of our neighbors.
    We do not care for our own. That fact, IMO, is sufficient to explain nearly all of the stress and dysfunction we experience as a nation and a society.
    That should shame us, every day.

  681. “Additionally, the United States has a very high child poverty rate. The 2012 UNICEF report listed The United States’ child poverty rate as 34th out of 35 “economically advanced” countries, with only Romania scoring lower”
    But, but, but, how can that be? We have added jobs for a record 75 straight months, unemployment is at a historic low, and the stock market is at a record high. By those metrics we should have almost no poor people, much less children.
    I agree completely that we simply don’t care for our own. We never put the American citizen, the American worker, the American child before all other considerations. So we have crappie education, poverty level jobs, massive inequality of opportunity and outcomes. The only worse place for opprtunity to live than rural America is the inner city.
    How many oecd stats do we need to prove that something different needs to be done.
    Yet every Cabinet member /Congressman/Governor talking about fundamental change is ridiculed or worse.
    We should be ashamed that we don’t have the intellectual ability to take new directions, or the common sense to know some of those won’t work so they can’t become “the way things are done” without punishing someone for trying them. But, mostly, that we can’t discuss them.
    We spend all of our energy in this society trying to solve 1st world problems while ignoring the third world in our midst.

  682. “Additionally, the United States has a very high child poverty rate. The 2012 UNICEF report listed The United States’ child poverty rate as 34th out of 35 “economically advanced” countries, with only Romania scoring lower”
    But, but, but, how can that be? We have added jobs for a record 75 straight months, unemployment is at a historic low, and the stock market is at a record high. By those metrics we should have almost no poor people, much less children.
    I agree completely that we simply don’t care for our own. We never put the American citizen, the American worker, the American child before all other considerations. So we have crappie education, poverty level jobs, massive inequality of opportunity and outcomes. The only worse place for opprtunity to live than rural America is the inner city.
    How many oecd stats do we need to prove that something different needs to be done.
    Yet every Cabinet member /Congressman/Governor talking about fundamental change is ridiculed or worse.
    We should be ashamed that we don’t have the intellectual ability to take new directions, or the common sense to know some of those won’t work so they can’t become “the way things are done” without punishing someone for trying them. But, mostly, that we can’t discuss them.
    We spend all of our energy in this society trying to solve 1st world problems while ignoring the third world in our midst.

  683. And, while I’m here, Roe is an OK compromise, I would never vote based on wanting to overturn it. I, of course, have never met a self styled progressive that doesn’t chafe at its limits.
    I have yet to see a self styled liberal Congress remove a liberal President. Hmm, how many Presidents have been “removed”?
    I don’t believe in race based affirmative action but would support class based affirmative action.
    Press 9 for Spanish doesn’t bother me at all, press 1 for English is a little irritating. It should be the default. But really, who notices these days?
    I know lots of conservatives willing to have their taxes raised to pay for those things the federal government should be providing, me included. Except I think they have enough money to provide those things now. So until there is an honest effort to reduce spending on things not in their folder then taxes shouldn’t be raised.
    The estate tax is a punitive tax mostly supported by people who have little to leave their children and grandchildren. Taking away a person’s financial legacy is still theft. We should work on creating equality all those other parts of people’s lives.

  684. And, while I’m here, Roe is an OK compromise, I would never vote based on wanting to overturn it. I, of course, have never met a self styled progressive that doesn’t chafe at its limits.
    I have yet to see a self styled liberal Congress remove a liberal President. Hmm, how many Presidents have been “removed”?
    I don’t believe in race based affirmative action but would support class based affirmative action.
    Press 9 for Spanish doesn’t bother me at all, press 1 for English is a little irritating. It should be the default. But really, who notices these days?
    I know lots of conservatives willing to have their taxes raised to pay for those things the federal government should be providing, me included. Except I think they have enough money to provide those things now. So until there is an honest effort to reduce spending on things not in their folder then taxes shouldn’t be raised.
    The estate tax is a punitive tax mostly supported by people who have little to leave their children and grandchildren. Taking away a person’s financial legacy is still theft. We should work on creating equality all those other parts of people’s lives.

  685. wj: That said, Roe was a disaster for the cause of legalization — witness the fact that we are still fighting over it half a century later. Not to mention that the legal reasoning in the decision looks, to my non-lawyer’s eye, like garbage.
    Would you mind explaining what is garbage-like about it?

  686. wj: That said, Roe was a disaster for the cause of legalization — witness the fact that we are still fighting over it half a century later. Not to mention that the legal reasoning in the decision looks, to my non-lawyer’s eye, like garbage.
    Would you mind explaining what is garbage-like about it?

  687. If you’re waiting until you’re dead to give your children your stuff, you’re not actually giving your children your stuff – you’re keeping it for yourself for as long as you conceivably can, and then relying on the gov’t to give it to them when you yourself were not willing to.
    There’s other problems with advocating socially striving to create equality but deriding estate taxes as fundamentally illegitimate, but that right there is quite dramatically glaring.

  688. If you’re waiting until you’re dead to give your children your stuff, you’re not actually giving your children your stuff – you’re keeping it for yourself for as long as you conceivably can, and then relying on the gov’t to give it to them when you yourself were not willing to.
    There’s other problems with advocating socially striving to create equality but deriding estate taxes as fundamentally illegitimate, but that right there is quite dramatically glaring.

  689. Marty: Yet every Cabinet member /Congressman/Governor talking about fundamental change is ridiculed or worse.
    Which cabinet member are you talking about, and what are they saying that’s being ridiculed? If you think that those who are trying to cut government spending in all realms, and tell you that’s going to help the people you claim are hurting, you need to show your work, please.

  690. Marty: Yet every Cabinet member /Congressman/Governor talking about fundamental change is ridiculed or worse.
    Which cabinet member are you talking about, and what are they saying that’s being ridiculed? If you think that those who are trying to cut government spending in all realms, and tell you that’s going to help the people you claim are hurting, you need to show your work, please.

  691. We spend all of our energy in this society trying to solve 1st world problems while ignoring the third world in our midst.
    On this, Marty and I are in agreement.

  692. We spend all of our energy in this society trying to solve 1st world problems while ignoring the third world in our midst.
    On this, Marty and I are in agreement.

  695. “More than one in five American children fall below a relative poverty line, which UNICEF defines as living in a household that earns less than half of the national median. The United States ranks 34th of the 35 countries surveyed…”
    This is a measure of relative poverty. It’s possible that a household earning 49% of the nation median in the USA is better off than a household earning 51% of the national median in some other country.

  696. “More than one in five American children fall below a relative poverty line, which UNICEF defines as living in a household that earns less than half of the national median. The United States ranks 34th of the 35 countries surveyed…”
    This is a measure of relative poverty. It’s possible that a household earning 49% of the nation median in the USA is better off than a household earning 51% of the national median in some other country.

  697. Sure. But that’s less relevant than you’re making it sound, because the Americans need to pay for goods and services on the American economy, not that of “some other country”…

  698. Sure. But that’s less relevant than you’re making it sound, because the Americans need to pay for goods and services on the American economy, not that of “some other country”…

  699. (To say nothing of poverty in terms of income being a proxy for a number of other social malaises that don’t disappear simply because income disparities are relative…)

  700. (To say nothing of poverty in terms of income being a proxy for a number of other social malaises that don’t disappear simply because income disparities are relative…)

  709. I, of course, have never met a self styled progressive that doesn’t chafe at its limits.
    I don’t.
    Nominating people to cabinet positions who are frankly hostile to the very departments they are intended to run is not “new ideas”, it’s an offense. It’s meant to be.
    “F*** you, hippie!”.
    As far as third world, there’s a pretty freaking simple solution. It’s called “pay people more”.
    Run that by your conservative buddies and see how far you get.

  710. I, of course, have never met a self styled progressive that doesn’t chafe at its limits.
    I don’t.
    Nominating people to cabinet positions who are frankly hostile to the very departments they are intended to run is not “new ideas”, it’s an offense. It’s meant to be.
    “F*** you, hippie!”.
    As far as third world, there’s a pretty freaking simple solution. It’s called “pay people more”.
    Run that by your conservative buddies and see how far you get.

  711. NV: Yes, but if how much stuff you can buy is the important thing you should be comparing absolute incomes adjusted for purchasing power parity.
    __
    We all agree that some inequality of income is desirable – allowing people to get richer gives them an incentive to do things we want them to do. We all agree that too much inequality is bad – we don’t want children to starve on the streets. The USA tolerates more inequality than most other countries, believing that individuals striving to get rich is what’s made it such a wealthy country, but Democrats are less keen on this than Republicans.
    You could draw a curve showing the (after tax) income distribution. I imagine if you ask a Republican what that should look like they’d say it’s none of the government’s business. If pressed, they’d agree that it’s a good idea for government to spend some money making sure that children don’t starve. They might favour a flat income tax to raise the money. Whereas if you ask a Democrat they’d say tax the rich to end child poverty, however defined. If pressed, they’d agree that in practice the tax burden has to be shared to some extent across most income earners.
    There’s a fundamental difference here between left and right free-market economics. It’s the wrong place to start if you’re looking for common ground with Republicans.

  712. NV: Yes, but if how much stuff you can buy is the important thing you should be comparing absolute incomes adjusted for purchasing power parity.
    __
    We all agree that some inequality of income is desirable – allowing people to get richer gives them an incentive to do things we want them to do. We all agree that too much inequality is bad – we don’t want children to starve on the streets. The USA tolerates more inequality than most other countries, believing that individuals striving to get rich is what’s made it such a wealthy country, but Democrats are less keen on this than Republicans.
    You could draw a curve showing the (after tax) income distribution. I imagine if you ask a Republican what that should look like they’d say it’s none of the government’s business. If pressed, they’d agree that it’s a good idea for government to spend some money making sure that children don’t starve. They might favour a flat income tax to raise the money. Whereas if you ask a Democrat they’d say tax the rich to end child poverty, however defined. If pressed, they’d agree that in practice the tax burden has to be shared to some extent across most income earners.
    There’s a fundamental difference here between left and right free-market economics. It’s the wrong place to start if you’re looking for common ground with Republicans.

  713. “The USA tolerates more inequality than most other countries, the rich believing that individuals striving to get rich is what’s made it such a wealthy country, and they have the political power to make it so”
    If you’re going to claim “The USA…believing” your preferred outcome, you need to back it up with opinion polls.
    The OBJECTIVE fact, is that “the rich” have significant political influence in the USA, and (surprise, surprise) use it to protect their wealth.
    Whether that is a good thing or not does depend on your politics, the facts do not.

  714. “The USA tolerates more inequality than most other countries, the rich believing that individuals striving to get rich is what’s made it such a wealthy country, and they have the political power to make it so”
    If you’re going to claim “The USA…believing” your preferred outcome, you need to back it up with opinion polls.
    The OBJECTIVE fact, is that “the rich” have significant political influence in the USA, and (surprise, surprise) use it to protect their wealth.
    Whether that is a good thing or not does depend on your politics, the facts do not.

  717. Don’t worry. Trump’s budget priorities will be paid for by a revved-up economy. A rising tide lifts all boats! The power of the market will be unleashed by deregulation and tax cuts. It’s a very new way of looking at things. It’s never been tried before, and certainly hasn’t failed.

  718. Don’t worry. Trump’s budget priorities will be paid for by a revved-up economy. A rising tide lifts all boats! The power of the market will be unleashed by deregulation and tax cuts. It’s a very new way of looking at things. It’s never been tried before, and certainly hasn’t failed.

  719. “…you need to back it up with opinion polls”
    I do? I don’t believe much in opinion polls, I believe in election results. I’m trying to remember which successful candidates for office have campaigned on the basis that high inequality was a major problem they would do something serious about. Bernie Sanders had a plan, but he wasn’t successful enough.
    You might think that democracy in the USA is seriously broken, and I would agree…
    TP: instructive link

  720. “…you need to back it up with opinion polls”
    I do? I don’t believe much in opinion polls, I believe in election results. I’m trying to remember which successful candidates for office have campaigned on the basis that high inequality was a major problem they would do something serious about. Bernie Sanders had a plan, but he wasn’t successful enough.
    You might think that democracy in the USA is seriously broken, and I would agree…
    TP: instructive link

  725. The problem with saying you believe in election results rather than opinion polls should be obvious, but in case it’s not… unless you’re counting referenda, elections never measure the opinions of the electorate on single issues, while opinion polls can and very frequently do. Ofc, that’s a feature rather than a bug if your goal is to promulgate vague received common wisdom; elections can mean so many different things at so many different times, whereas impractical, inflexible polls typically only mean one thing – and even with sloppy survey methodology, that one thing is comparatively narrow…

  726. The problem with saying you believe in election results rather than opinion polls should be obvious, but in case it’s not… unless you’re counting referenda, elections never measure the opinions of the electorate on single issues, while opinion polls can and very frequently do. Ofc, that’s a feature rather than a bug if your goal is to promulgate vague received common wisdom; elections can mean so many different things at so many different times, whereas impractical, inflexible polls typically only mean one thing – and even with sloppy survey methodology, that one thing is comparatively narrow…

  729. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos on Monday night released a statement suggesting that historically black colleges were the product of a “school choice” movement

    WTF is wrong with these people.

  730. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos on Monday night released a statement suggesting that historically black colleges were the product of a “school choice” movement

    WTF is wrong with these people.

  733. Obama: “we’ve often accepted more income inequality than many other nations…”. His focus in that speech was on social mobility.
    In the past 50 years the presidency has been about equally divided between the parties, and the Democrats have had control of the Senate and House more often than the Republicans. The outcome is that the USA ranks at or near the top of any international comparison of inequality in developed nations.
    My conclusion is that the US electorate has been unwilling to vote for politicians whose priority is to reduce inequality to European levels.
    I’m English. I submit that it’s easier for an outsider to see how things are different in the USA.

  734. Obama: “we’ve often accepted more income inequality than many other nations…”. His focus in that speech was on social mobility.
    In the past 50 years the presidency has been about equally divided between the parties, and the Democrats have had control of the Senate and House more often than the Republicans. The outcome is that the USA ranks at or near the top of any international comparison of inequality in developed nations.
    My conclusion is that the US electorate has been unwilling to vote for politicians whose priority is to reduce inequality to European levels.
    I’m English. I submit that it’s easier for an outsider to see how things are different in the USA.

  735. The reason Roe is problematic is not, IMO, the substance of the decision, but the fact that it became the law of the land via the SCOTUS rather the Congress.
    Russell, I wouldn’t say that, quite. A legislative solution would be good. But realistically, that isn’t going to happen across the board. Eventually, for something to become “the law of the land”, i.e. across the entire country, it Supreme Court is going to have to force the last few places. See Loving v Virginia.
    Rather, I think the problem is that you need more of the country (i.e. the population) on board first, before the Court acts. Which, admittedly, often means a legislative solution in a bunch of places. But not necessarily as many states as the portion of the population which has changed its mind would suggest. See gay marriage.
    Then, when the courts step in, it still upsets some people, but a lot fewer of them and for a lot less time. There are, after all, still people who are horrified by interracial marriage. But it’s not an electoral litmus test. And wasn’t even shortly after Loving.
    That’s why I said that the Court acting when it did was problematic.

  736. The reason Roe is problematic is not, IMO, the substance of the decision, but the fact that it became the law of the land via the SCOTUS rather the Congress.
    Russell, I wouldn’t say that, quite. A legislative solution would be good. But realistically, that isn’t going to happen across the board. Eventually, for something to become “the law of the land”, i.e. across the entire country, it Supreme Court is going to have to force the last few places. See Loving v Virginia.
    Rather, I think the problem is that you need more of the country (i.e. the population) on board first, before the Court acts. Which, admittedly, often means a legislative solution in a bunch of places. But not necessarily as many states as the portion of the population which has changed its mind would suggest. See gay marriage.
    Then, when the courts step in, it still upsets some people, but a lot fewer of them and for a lot less time. There are, after all, still people who are horrified by interracial marriage. But it’s not an electoral litmus test. And wasn’t even shortly after Loving.
    That’s why I said that the Court acting when it did was problematic.

  737. Rather, I think the problem is that you need more of the country (i.e. the population) on board first
    A reasonable point. I think this is also Ginsburg’s point of view.
    I wonder what she would have to say about the Underground Railroad.
    A grass-roots initiative to address the problem of public transportation!
    My conclusion is that the US electorate has been unwilling to vote for politicians whose priority is to reduce inequality to European levels.
    Hard to argue against this.
    I do, however, agree with Tony P that folks here don’t have a realistic understanding of the actual degree of inequality.

  738. Rather, I think the problem is that you need more of the country (i.e. the population) on board first
    A reasonable point. I think this is also Ginsburg’s point of view.
    I wonder what she would have to say about the Underground Railroad.
    A grass-roots initiative to address the problem of public transportation!
    My conclusion is that the US electorate has been unwilling to vote for politicians whose priority is to reduce inequality to European levels.
    Hard to argue against this.
    I do, however, agree with Tony P that folks here don’t have a realistic understanding of the actual degree of inequality.

  739. wj, your analysis ignores the documented history of how religious fundamentalists seized upon Roe as an issue to gin up support, after finding themselves on the losing side of racial bigotry issues.
    As such, any legal or political “flaws” in Roe were mostly irrelevant, and a result of post-hoc justification.
    Now if “the Court acting when it did was problematic” means “acting before the crazy christianist fundies had been completely annihilated”, you have an interesting point.

  740. wj, your analysis ignores the documented history of how religious fundamentalists seized upon Roe as an issue to gin up support, after finding themselves on the losing side of racial bigotry issues.
    As such, any legal or political “flaws” in Roe were mostly irrelevant, and a result of post-hoc justification.
    Now if “the Court acting when it did was problematic” means “acting before the crazy christianist fundies had been completely annihilated”, you have an interesting point.

  741. That said, Roe was a disaster for the cause of legalization
    wj has consistently made this assertion. It is a myth.
    No, Bobby, it’s not. I wasn’t endorsing any of the points in your link. In fact, I agree that none of the items it objects to are true (although “Roe is unpopular” is closer to being true than the others).
    But it is no myth that we are still seeing legislation at the state level trying to restrict abortions. (And the people enacting those laws will say, when they are being honest, that they would like to outlaw it altogether.) And they are able to enact those laws because the people in their states want them.
    Do you see anything similar, did you ever see anything similar, about interracial marriage? No, you did not.
    Or, to get more current, do you see similar legislative attempts over gay marriage? Yes, you see laws designed to let people, specifically private businesses, discriminate over (mostly, avoid interacting with) gay marriages. But nobody is ramming thru laws to restrict the marriages themselves. Laws are not even getting passed in bunches of states to allow government employees to discriminate in the course of doing their jobs.
    And nobody is running for office on a “Overturn Oberfell” — and not just because “Roe” is easier to spell. Nothing like abortion. Because, IMHO, popular opinion shifted before the courts stepped in. So the issue is settled; there are still a lot of people who are very unhappy about it, but nobody is acting like it is going to get reversed. It is, I believe the phrase is, “settled law” at this point.

  742. That said, Roe was a disaster for the cause of legalization
    wj has consistently made this assertion. It is a myth.
    No, Bobby, it’s not. I wasn’t endorsing any of the points in your link. In fact, I agree that none of the items it objects to are true (although “Roe is unpopular” is closer to being true than the others).
    But it is no myth that we are still seeing legislation at the state level trying to restrict abortions. (And the people enacting those laws will say, when they are being honest, that they would like to outlaw it altogether.) And they are able to enact those laws because the people in their states want them.
    Do you see anything similar, did you ever see anything similar, about interracial marriage? No, you did not.
    Or, to get more current, do you see similar legislative attempts over gay marriage? Yes, you see laws designed to let people, specifically private businesses, discriminate over (mostly, avoid interacting with) gay marriages. But nobody is ramming thru laws to restrict the marriages themselves. Laws are not even getting passed in bunches of states to allow government employees to discriminate in the course of doing their jobs.
    And nobody is running for office on a “Overturn Oberfell” — and not just because “Roe” is easier to spell. Nothing like abortion. Because, IMHO, popular opinion shifted before the courts stepped in. So the issue is settled; there are still a lot of people who are very unhappy about it, but nobody is acting like it is going to get reversed. It is, I believe the phrase is, “settled law” at this point.

  743. You could draw a curve showing the (after tax) income distribution. I imagine if you ask a Republican what that should look like they’d say it’s none of the government’s business.
    It’s rather interesting that the income (or wealth) distribution in the 1950s was so different from today. That’s the same 1950s for which a lot of “conservatives” are so nostalgic otherwise. Hmmmm….

  744. You could draw a curve showing the (after tax) income distribution. I imagine if you ask a Republican what that should look like they’d say it’s none of the government’s business.
    It’s rather interesting that the income (or wealth) distribution in the 1950s was so different from today. That’s the same 1950s for which a lot of “conservatives” are so nostalgic otherwise. Hmmmm….

  745. wj, your analysis ignores the documented history of how religious fundamentalists seized upon Roe as an issue to gin up support, after finding themselves on the losing side of racial bigotry issues.
    On the other hand, pre-Roe groups like the Southern Baptist Convention (nobody’s idea of a liberal group, then or now) were on record as favoring the legalization of abortion.
    Of course, some of us can remember when the NRA was actively in favor of gun control. Lots of groups shift position on issues when they decide it will benefit their membership numbers. Or, at least, their income — not necessarily the same thing.

  746. wj, your analysis ignores the documented history of how religious fundamentalists seized upon Roe as an issue to gin up support, after finding themselves on the losing side of racial bigotry issues.
    On the other hand, pre-Roe groups like the Southern Baptist Convention (nobody’s idea of a liberal group, then or now) were on record as favoring the legalization of abortion.
    Of course, some of us can remember when the NRA was actively in favor of gun control. Lots of groups shift position on issues when they decide it will benefit their membership numbers. Or, at least, their income — not necessarily the same thing.

  749. And nobody is running for office on a “Overturn Oberfell”
    That comes in 2020, when POTUS Pence, having succeeded Donald Trump after Trump declared himself insane to avoid being hung for treason, runs for a second term.
    And no, that is not me wishing.

  750. And nobody is running for office on a “Overturn Oberfell”
    That comes in 2020, when POTUS Pence, having succeeded Donald Trump after Trump declared himself insane to avoid being hung for treason, runs for a second term.
    And no, that is not me wishing.

  751. Not to mention that the legal reasoning in the decision [in Roe] looks, to my non-lawyer’s eye, like garbage.
    sapient: Would you mind explaining what is garbage-like about it?
    I can see there being a “right to privacy” under the 9th Amendment. (And I’m glad of it. Indeed, I think we could do with a bit more of it these days.) But I am having a serious problem seeing how such a right would result in Roe.
    If the Court had wanted to come up with another unenumerated right under the 9th Amendment, that might be another story. But this one? The contrast to other cases around the same time which had a basis in a right to privacy (e.g. Mapp v Ohio) is rather stark. At least to my eye.

  752. Not to mention that the legal reasoning in the decision [in Roe] looks, to my non-lawyer’s eye, like garbage.
    sapient: Would you mind explaining what is garbage-like about it?
    I can see there being a “right to privacy” under the 9th Amendment. (And I’m glad of it. Indeed, I think we could do with a bit more of it these days.) But I am having a serious problem seeing how such a right would result in Roe.
    If the Court had wanted to come up with another unenumerated right under the 9th Amendment, that might be another story. But this one? The contrast to other cases around the same time which had a basis in a right to privacy (e.g. Mapp v Ohio) is rather stark. At least to my eye.

  753. wj: Rather, I think the problem is that you need more of the country (i.e. the population) on board first
    russell: A reasonable point. I think this is also Ginsburg’s point of view.
    Maybe it’s reasonable, and Ginsburg has said things like that, and she also quibbles that equal protection, not privacy, would have been a more appropriate Constitutional basis for the decision.
    However, wj also says that the decision is “garbage”. I would like to know why he thinks that. When Roe was decided, there were several different theories on the court as to why it was the correct decision. The right to “privacy” as enunciated in Griswold v. Connecticut (holding that contraception use by married couples is constitutionally protected by the right of privacy which is implied by various amendments to the Constitution) was one of them. Equal protection and the Ninth amendment were others.
    More importantly, though, if you’re a Supreme Court justice who actually believes that a certain law violates a fundamental Constitutional right, be it privacy, equal protection of the laws, or something in the Ninth Amendment, then waiting for the political winds to change really isn’t your job, is it?
    The reason that I really love the decision in Roe v. Wade is the extent to which Justice Blackmun examined the history of abortion, in the common law, and in Canon law. He showed how incredibly recent any objection to early term abortion actually was – that it had very little long-term historical or cultural basis. So waiting for the country to “catch up” to a practice that was accepted at the time the Constitution was written seems like waiting for the country to keep going backward.
    I would suggest that wj reread the opinion, or at least explain why it’s garbage. It’s an incredibly compassionate and historically based opinion, that is well grounded in the common law and the Constitution.

  754. wj: Rather, I think the problem is that you need more of the country (i.e. the population) on board first
    russell: A reasonable point. I think this is also Ginsburg’s point of view.
    Maybe it’s reasonable, and Ginsburg has said things like that, and she also quibbles that equal protection, not privacy, would have been a more appropriate Constitutional basis for the decision.
    However, wj also says that the decision is “garbage”. I would like to know why he thinks that. When Roe was decided, there were several different theories on the court as to why it was the correct decision. The right to “privacy” as enunciated in Griswold v. Connecticut (holding that contraception use by married couples is constitutionally protected by the right of privacy which is implied by various amendments to the Constitution) was one of them. Equal protection and the Ninth amendment were others.
    More importantly, though, if you’re a Supreme Court justice who actually believes that a certain law violates a fundamental Constitutional right, be it privacy, equal protection of the laws, or something in the Ninth Amendment, then waiting for the political winds to change really isn’t your job, is it?
    The reason that I really love the decision in Roe v. Wade is the extent to which Justice Blackmun examined the history of abortion, in the common law, and in Canon law. He showed how incredibly recent any objection to early term abortion actually was – that it had very little long-term historical or cultural basis. So waiting for the country to “catch up” to a practice that was accepted at the time the Constitution was written seems like waiting for the country to keep going backward.
    I would suggest that wj reread the opinion, or at least explain why it’s garbage. It’s an incredibly compassionate and historically based opinion, that is well grounded in the common law and the Constitution.

  755. More importantly, though, if you’re a Supreme Court justice who actually believes that a certain law violates a fundamental Constitutional right, be it privacy, equal protection of the laws, or something in the Ninth Amendment, then waiting for the political winds to change really isn’t your job, is it?
    I would say that the (political) fault was primarily with those pushing for a test case.
    I don’t have a problem with the Court making a ruling, once the case dropped in their lap. Even if I find their reasoning in doing so unconvincing.

  756. More importantly, though, if you’re a Supreme Court justice who actually believes that a certain law violates a fundamental Constitutional right, be it privacy, equal protection of the laws, or something in the Ninth Amendment, then waiting for the political winds to change really isn’t your job, is it?
    I would say that the (political) fault was primarily with those pushing for a test case.
    I don’t have a problem with the Court making a ruling, once the case dropped in their lap. Even if I find their reasoning in doing so unconvincing.

  757. Even if I find their reasoning in doing so unconvincing.
    I won’t insist that you humor me, wj, but you still haven’t really said why that is. One of these days, if you have time, I would be interested to know.

  758. Even if I find their reasoning in doing so unconvincing.
    I won’t insist that you humor me, wj, but you still haven’t really said why that is. One of these days, if you have time, I would be interested to know.

  761. Sapient, did you catch my 12:45? (It was probably while you were typing your 12:49, so perhaps not.) That’s basically it.

  762. Sapient, did you catch my 12:45? (It was probably while you were typing your 12:49, so perhaps not.) That’s basically it.

  763. My conclusion is that the US electorate has been unwilling to vote for politicians whose priority is to reduce inequality to European levels.
    I’m English. I submit that it’s easier for an outsider to see how things are different in the USA.
    Or alternatively, it makes it easier to see correlation. The US is an entrenched 2-party system, and both parties are controlled by factions deeply invested in empowering capitalists. The last time we saw that threatened at the national level was McGovern, and – surprise, surprise – the centerists in the Democratic Party undermined him and blaming his failure on being too leftist. The major parties are controlled by individuals who favor inequality, so you don’t see broad support for reducing inequality because that’s “political kryptonite”, and the party will attack anyone who advocates it prominently (rather than in measured “we’ll mitigate its effects while supporting its causes” tones).
    So no, it really isn’t so easy to isolate causes among correlated phenomena w/o actively trying to isolate them… which again, elections don’t do, even if the person drawing the conclusions from them is English.

  764. My conclusion is that the US electorate has been unwilling to vote for politicians whose priority is to reduce inequality to European levels.
    I’m English. I submit that it’s easier for an outsider to see how things are different in the USA.
    Or alternatively, it makes it easier to see correlation. The US is an entrenched 2-party system, and both parties are controlled by factions deeply invested in empowering capitalists. The last time we saw that threatened at the national level was McGovern, and – surprise, surprise – the centerists in the Democratic Party undermined him and blaming his failure on being too leftist. The major parties are controlled by individuals who favor inequality, so you don’t see broad support for reducing inequality because that’s “political kryptonite”, and the party will attack anyone who advocates it prominently (rather than in measured “we’ll mitigate its effects while supporting its causes” tones).
    So no, it really isn’t so easy to isolate causes among correlated phenomena w/o actively trying to isolate them… which again, elections don’t do, even if the person drawing the conclusions from them is English.

  765. I thought some who haven’t seen it might find interesting this link about Trump’s pick of Ajit Pai as Chairman of the FCC
    So far what Trump appears to be about is removing any bar to people with enormous piles of money making more and more of it.
    Privatizing public institutions and resources and/or removing any regulations on the private exploitation of those public institutions and resources are part of the deal.
    Ajit Pai is a natural.

  766. I thought some who haven’t seen it might find interesting this link about Trump’s pick of Ajit Pai as Chairman of the FCC
    So far what Trump appears to be about is removing any bar to people with enormous piles of money making more and more of it.
    Privatizing public institutions and resources and/or removing any regulations on the private exploitation of those public institutions and resources are part of the deal.
    Ajit Pai is a natural.

  769. Thanks, wj. I was wondering whether it was the right to privacy holding that you objected to. I disagree, but appreciate your explanation.

  770. Thanks, wj. I was wondering whether it was the right to privacy holding that you objected to. I disagree, but appreciate your explanation.

  771. If Vlad Putin’s out of shape, fat brother can serve as President of the United States, why not this
    South of France is looking better and better.

  772. If Vlad Putin’s out of shape, fat brother can serve as President of the United States, why not this
    South of France is looking better and better.

  773. So far what Trump appears to be about is removing any bar to people with enormous piles of money making more and more of it.
    Well, sure, but it’s eventually going the help the regular folks who’ve been left behind. None of those rich people want to make everyone else into wage/debt slaves.
    MAGA!!!
    I happened to read some of the comments on this from Matt Bai. I mean, it is a yahoo article, so I suppose you’re going to get a bunch of yahoos commenting. But it’s still stunning.

  774. So far what Trump appears to be about is removing any bar to people with enormous piles of money making more and more of it.
    Well, sure, but it’s eventually going the help the regular folks who’ve been left behind. None of those rich people want to make everyone else into wage/debt slaves.
    MAGA!!!
    I happened to read some of the comments on this from Matt Bai. I mean, it is a yahoo article, so I suppose you’re going to get a bunch of yahoos commenting. But it’s still stunning.

  775. Roe could have been decided on any number of grounds. You could focus on the consequences of making abortion illegal upon conception: forcing thousands upon thousands of women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term against their will.
    ISTM that is inconsistent with our constitutional scheme, so, what to do?

  776. Roe could have been decided on any number of grounds. You could focus on the consequences of making abortion illegal upon conception: forcing thousands upon thousands of women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term against their will.
    ISTM that is inconsistent with our constitutional scheme, so, what to do?

  777. No, Bobby, it’s not. I wasn’t endorsing any of the points in your link.
    You’re putting out there a common variation of point #1. It is an assertion without evidence. As Lemieux points out, the push for legalization had pretty much hit a dead end by 1971. Therefore the decision was not a “disaster” for further legislation at the state level. That disaster had already taken place.
    As to why there are apparent “wins” for interracial marriage and gay rights, perhaps you should read this.

  778. No, Bobby, it’s not. I wasn’t endorsing any of the points in your link.
    You’re putting out there a common variation of point #1. It is an assertion without evidence. As Lemieux points out, the push for legalization had pretty much hit a dead end by 1971. Therefore the decision was not a “disaster” for further legislation at the state level. That disaster had already taken place.
    As to why there are apparent “wins” for interracial marriage and gay rights, perhaps you should read this.

  779. On the other hand, pre-Roe groups like the Southern Baptist Convention (nobody’s idea of a liberal group, then or now) were on record as favoring the legalization of abortion.
    Which utterly begs the question as to why they had such a stark about face on the matter.
    The historical evidence is pretty clear that southern evangelicals decide to go to the mattresses on abortion is deeply entwined with school desegregation, another issue the courts were pushing hard on at that time.

  780. On the other hand, pre-Roe groups like the Southern Baptist Convention (nobody’s idea of a liberal group, then or now) were on record as favoring the legalization of abortion.
    Which utterly begs the question as to why they had such a stark about face on the matter.
    The historical evidence is pretty clear that southern evangelicals decide to go to the mattresses on abortion is deeply entwined with school desegregation, another issue the courts were pushing hard on at that time.

  781. One could also focus on the resulting conditions should one side of the abortion question being given their maximal position and what the state would have to do to ensure that position is maintained.
    That is, no abortions at all, or legalized abortion up until the due date.

  782. One could also focus on the resulting conditions should one side of the abortion question being given their maximal position and what the state would have to do to ensure that position is maintained.
    That is, no abortions at all, or legalized abortion up until the due date.

  783. …or legalized abortion up until the due date.
    It would be interesting, were it possible, to know how abortion rates at various times throughout pregnancies would change were this the indisputable law of the land.
    Would lots of women suddenly decide to have 2nd- and 3rd-trimester abortions?

  784. …or legalized abortion up until the due date.
    It would be interesting, were it possible, to know how abortion rates at various times throughout pregnancies would change were this the indisputable law of the land.
    Would lots of women suddenly decide to have 2nd- and 3rd-trimester abortions?

  785. South of France is looking better and better.
    The south of France is lovely. I personally recommend the Rhône-Alpes (okay, now Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes) region rather than the actual coastal regions. I’ll admit I’m biased from having lived in Lyon, though.

  786. South of France is looking better and better.
    The south of France is lovely. I personally recommend the Rhône-Alpes (okay, now Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes) region rather than the actual coastal regions. I’ll admit I’m biased from having lived in Lyon, though.

  787.  As Lemieux points out, the push for legalization had pretty much hit a dead end by 1971. Therefore the decision was not a “disaster” for further legislation at the state level.
    My recollection, having lived thru it, is that legalization was still moving forward. Perhaps not super fast, but still definitely moving.
    Of course my memory might be playing me false.

  788.  As Lemieux points out, the push for legalization had pretty much hit a dead end by 1971. Therefore the decision was not a “disaster” for further legislation at the state level.
    My recollection, having lived thru it, is that legalization was still moving forward. Perhaps not super fast, but still definitely moving.
    Of course my memory might be playing me false.

  789. wj, your analysis ignores the documented history of how religious fundamentalists seized upon Roe as an issue to gin up support, after finding themselves on the losing side of racial bigotry issues.
    Really? I was around then and fairly alert to the world around me and I don’t remember anything even remotely like this anywhere. Maybe you have some links to something mainstream at the time?
    As such, any legal or political “flaws” in Roe were mostly irrelevant, and a result of post-hoc justification.
    Masterful logic = because the motives of the original Roe opponents were immoral (or so I assert), any deficiencies in the decision itself are beside the point (I further assert).
    Or, slightly differently = it doesn’t matter that Roe was extra-constitutional bullshit, its earliest opponents were Christian racists, which fixes everything.
    Brilliant.
    Proponents of Roe are free to find language in the Constitution that points compellingly to Roe’s three trimester scheme. Good luck.

  790. wj, your analysis ignores the documented history of how religious fundamentalists seized upon Roe as an issue to gin up support, after finding themselves on the losing side of racial bigotry issues.
    Really? I was around then and fairly alert to the world around me and I don’t remember anything even remotely like this anywhere. Maybe you have some links to something mainstream at the time?
    As such, any legal or political “flaws” in Roe were mostly irrelevant, and a result of post-hoc justification.
    Masterful logic = because the motives of the original Roe opponents were immoral (or so I assert), any deficiencies in the decision itself are beside the point (I further assert).
    Or, slightly differently = it doesn’t matter that Roe was extra-constitutional bullshit, its earliest opponents were Christian racists, which fixes everything.
    Brilliant.
    Proponents of Roe are free to find language in the Constitution that points compellingly to Roe’s three trimester scheme. Good luck.

  791. Perhaps not super fast, but still definitely moving.
    Please provide evidence showing that legalized abortion was a political possibility in those states beyond the 12-14 that had already legalized it by the time Roe was handed down.

  792. Perhaps not super fast, but still definitely moving.
    Please provide evidence showing that legalized abortion was a political possibility in those states beyond the 12-14 that had already legalized it by the time Roe was handed down.

  795. I was around then and fairly alert to the world around me and I don’t remember anything even remotely like this anywhere. Maybe you have some links to something mainstream at the time?
    Doesn’t the spectacle of middle aged white men complaining about what women do with their bodies suggest that this is part of it? There have been some articles about the new ‘feminine’ face of anti-abortion,
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/a-feminine-face-for-the-anti-abortion-movement/2011/11/02/gIQAwd7kiM_story.html?utm_term=.141e6b68d2eb
    from the article
    Most important, they are revising the terms of engagement. Antiabortion activists have traditionally focused their energies on the rights of the fetus. But on the question of women’s rights and women’s health, the old-school warriors have been more vulnerable. What is a poor woman with no support system and a bunch of kids at home to do in the event of an unwanted pregnancy? The old white men couldn’t give an answer. They came across not just as unsympathetic. They were uncomprehending. Simply put, they could not relate.
    That’s not from the time, but I think it accurately describes the situation.
    The article also suggests the classist element involved.
    They are well-educated women. Dannenfelser received her undergraduate degree from Duke University; her first job out of college was in the Reagan White House. Yoest received a PhD from the University of Virginia. Religious faith undergirds their political convictions in all cases. Dannenfelser describes her conversion from the Episcopal Church to Roman Catholicism as being motivated in part by the Catholic emphasis on Mary and the “feminine genius” she represents. “The reality,” she says, “is that we are all called to serve each other.”
    The newer ‘feminine’ face of anti-abortion, is, overall and simply put, a branding mechanism.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/donald-trump-abortion-row-meet-marjorie-dannenfelser-the-woman-s/
    I’m sure that the women listed are opposed to abortion, and are probably opposed to the decline of western civilization, as evidenced by gays being everywhere. I wouldn’t be surprised if they drew the conclusion that ISIS and abortion is linked. I’d be interested if you could locate a sizable anti-abortion element that is also supportive of gay rights.
    I can grant that you may personally have problems with it. But if you fail to take into account the other side (which Roe does through the notion of trimesters), you are just another middle(?) aged white guy telling women what is or is not good for them. I realize that 20-30 years ago, this was not as much a problem, but the world changes. If you want to keep that look, it’s up to you but don’t be surprised if you are the butt of ridicule for it.

  796. I was around then and fairly alert to the world around me and I don’t remember anything even remotely like this anywhere. Maybe you have some links to something mainstream at the time?
    Doesn’t the spectacle of middle aged white men complaining about what women do with their bodies suggest that this is part of it? There have been some articles about the new ‘feminine’ face of anti-abortion,
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/a-feminine-face-for-the-anti-abortion-movement/2011/11/02/gIQAwd7kiM_story.html?utm_term=.141e6b68d2eb
    from the article
    Most important, they are revising the terms of engagement. Antiabortion activists have traditionally focused their energies on the rights of the fetus. But on the question of women’s rights and women’s health, the old-school warriors have been more vulnerable. What is a poor woman with no support system and a bunch of kids at home to do in the event of an unwanted pregnancy? The old white men couldn’t give an answer. They came across not just as unsympathetic. They were uncomprehending. Simply put, they could not relate.
    That’s not from the time, but I think it accurately describes the situation.
    The article also suggests the classist element involved.
    They are well-educated women. Dannenfelser received her undergraduate degree from Duke University; her first job out of college was in the Reagan White House. Yoest received a PhD from the University of Virginia. Religious faith undergirds their political convictions in all cases. Dannenfelser describes her conversion from the Episcopal Church to Roman Catholicism as being motivated in part by the Catholic emphasis on Mary and the “feminine genius” she represents. “The reality,” she says, “is that we are all called to serve each other.”
    The newer ‘feminine’ face of anti-abortion, is, overall and simply put, a branding mechanism.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/donald-trump-abortion-row-meet-marjorie-dannenfelser-the-woman-s/
    I’m sure that the women listed are opposed to abortion, and are probably opposed to the decline of western civilization, as evidenced by gays being everywhere. I wouldn’t be surprised if they drew the conclusion that ISIS and abortion is linked. I’d be interested if you could locate a sizable anti-abortion element that is also supportive of gay rights.
    I can grant that you may personally have problems with it. But if you fail to take into account the other side (which Roe does through the notion of trimesters), you are just another middle(?) aged white guy telling women what is or is not good for them. I realize that 20-30 years ago, this was not as much a problem, but the world changes. If you want to keep that look, it’s up to you but don’t be surprised if you are the butt of ridicule for it.

  797. McTx: Proponents of Roe are free to find language in the Constitution that points compellingly to Roe’s three trimester scheme. Good luck.
    Why does it have to be compelling? I mean, if the basic construct is balancing the rights of the woman vs. the rights of the fetus (which I don’t necessarily agree with) then it seems to me you have two options.
    One is to pick the side that has the greater weight in the balance and then declare that side the winner and give them their maximal position always and everywhere.
    The other is to reach a compromise between the rights. If you choose this path then you need to decide how to strike the balance, and it seems to me that viability is a decent place to draw the line (not that I necessarily agree with that either) and the trimester framework a decent approximation, at least in 1973.
    This is no different than any other right, it’s necessary to define the contours of the right and how far it reaches in particular situations. I mean, try squaring libel and slander law with the text of the 1st Amendment, for example.

  798. McTx: Proponents of Roe are free to find language in the Constitution that points compellingly to Roe’s three trimester scheme. Good luck.
    Why does it have to be compelling? I mean, if the basic construct is balancing the rights of the woman vs. the rights of the fetus (which I don’t necessarily agree with) then it seems to me you have two options.
    One is to pick the side that has the greater weight in the balance and then declare that side the winner and give them their maximal position always and everywhere.
    The other is to reach a compromise between the rights. If you choose this path then you need to decide how to strike the balance, and it seems to me that viability is a decent place to draw the line (not that I necessarily agree with that either) and the trimester framework a decent approximation, at least in 1973.
    This is no different than any other right, it’s necessary to define the contours of the right and how far it reaches in particular situations. I mean, try squaring libel and slander law with the text of the 1st Amendment, for example.

  799. I mean, it’s not like the levels of scrutiny analysis under the 14th amendment jumped directly from the Constitutional parchment into a SCOTUS opinion before the ink was dry on the parchment.

  800. I mean, it’s not like the levels of scrutiny analysis under the 14th amendment jumped directly from the Constitutional parchment into a SCOTUS opinion before the ink was dry on the parchment.

  801. if the basic construct is balancing the rights of the woman vs. the rights of the fetus (which I don’t necessarily agree with) then it seems to me you have two options.
    One is to pick the side that has the greater weight in the balance and then declare that side the winner and give them their maximal position always and everywhere.
    Doesn’t that approach assume that “the fetus” is a static entity? I’m having a little difficulty with seeing a 4 cell blob as the same, for pretty much any purpose, as a 41 week fetus. Granted, that’s the position of the “moment of conception” folks. But I just can’t see it.

  802. if the basic construct is balancing the rights of the woman vs. the rights of the fetus (which I don’t necessarily agree with) then it seems to me you have two options.
    One is to pick the side that has the greater weight in the balance and then declare that side the winner and give them their maximal position always and everywhere.
    Doesn’t that approach assume that “the fetus” is a static entity? I’m having a little difficulty with seeing a 4 cell blob as the same, for pretty much any purpose, as a 41 week fetus. Granted, that’s the position of the “moment of conception” folks. But I just can’t see it.

  803. I don’t think so. One could view it as: woman 100% human with all rights during entire pregnancy vs. zygote/fetus not 100% human during entire pregnancy, woman wins on balance considering the entire 9 month period, thus she gets the maximal pro-choice position during the entire time.
    Or at least that’s the way I would describe the “one or the other” approach.
    Another issue lurking is that we’re not really talking about the rights of the fetus per se, but the ability of the state to interfere with the liberty of another person (whose personhood and entitlement to rights is not in doubt by anyone) to protect the rights of the fetus.

  804. I don’t think so. One could view it as: woman 100% human with all rights during entire pregnancy vs. zygote/fetus not 100% human during entire pregnancy, woman wins on balance considering the entire 9 month period, thus she gets the maximal pro-choice position during the entire time.
    Or at least that’s the way I would describe the “one or the other” approach.
    Another issue lurking is that we’re not really talking about the rights of the fetus per se, but the ability of the state to interfere with the liberty of another person (whose personhood and entitlement to rights is not in doubt by anyone) to protect the rights of the fetus.

  805. Yeah, but I can see saying, “While a fetus isn’t 100% human initially, it is 100% by week X.”
    I’d say what, or at least a major part of what, we are talking about is: at what point do we have a human being? Or, to put it in theological terms, at what point does the soul join the body? (Note that the other side of this, when has the soul left the body, informs the discussion of when/whether to pull the plug on someone who is brain dead.)

  806. Yeah, but I can see saying, “While a fetus isn’t 100% human initially, it is 100% by week X.”
    I’d say what, or at least a major part of what, we are talking about is: at what point do we have a human being? Or, to put it in theological terms, at what point does the soul join the body? (Note that the other side of this, when has the soul left the body, informs the discussion of when/whether to pull the plug on someone who is brain dead.)

  807. Well sure, but assume the fetus is 100% human by week 30, and yet the woman has been 100% human since conception, and indeed for much longer than that, so for the sum total of the 9 month period, the woman’s rights outweigh, even if during the last 10 weeks their rights are equal (and even then I’m not so sure), so she wins even during those last 10 weeks based on the totality of rights during the pregnancy.

  808. Well sure, but assume the fetus is 100% human by week 30, and yet the woman has been 100% human since conception, and indeed for much longer than that, so for the sum total of the 9 month period, the woman’s rights outweigh, even if during the last 10 weeks their rights are equal (and even then I’m not so sure), so she wins even during those last 10 weeks based on the totality of rights during the pregnancy.

  809. Opponents of Roe are equally welcome to “find language in the Constitution” that says anything about abortion.
    BTW, McKinney: do you have the right to donate a kidney? If you do, good luck finding that in the Constitution.
    –TP

  810. Opponents of Roe are equally welcome to “find language in the Constitution” that says anything about abortion.
    BTW, McKinney: do you have the right to donate a kidney? If you do, good luck finding that in the Constitution.
    –TP

  811. Well, there’s no language in the Constitution about murder (or rape, robbery, fraud, grand larceny, etc.) either, and yet states are free to make it illegal.

  812. Well, there’s no language in the Constitution about murder (or rape, robbery, fraud, grand larceny, etc.) either, and yet states are free to make it illegal.

  813. Really? I was around then and fairly alert to the world around me and I don’t remember anything even remotely like this anywhere
    I actually was a religious fundamentalist around about then, and yeah, it was kinda like that.
    You don’t see three trimesters in the Constitution, I don’t see corporate persons and an inalienable right to property ownership.
    Emanations everywhere,

  814. Really? I was around then and fairly alert to the world around me and I don’t remember anything even remotely like this anywhere
    I actually was a religious fundamentalist around about then, and yeah, it was kinda like that.
    You don’t see three trimesters in the Constitution, I don’t see corporate persons and an inalienable right to property ownership.
    Emanations everywhere,

  817. What else are states free to make illegal? Cremation (as opposed to burial)? Alcohol (as opposed to marijuana)? Payday loans?
    –TP

  818. What else are states free to make illegal? Cremation (as opposed to burial)? Alcohol (as opposed to marijuana)? Payday loans?
    –TP

  819. Proponents of Roe are free to find language in the Constitution that points compellingly to Roe’s three trimester scheme. Good luck.
    cf Shelby County..perhaps McKkinney can find where in the Constitution the “freedom” of the states implies a “congruence of proportionality”….but I guess what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
    I would stack up the “unconstitutionality” of Roe against the wild eyed so-called baseless reasoning of Shelby any time and any place (hopefully a warm sunny place).

  820. Proponents of Roe are free to find language in the Constitution that points compellingly to Roe’s three trimester scheme. Good luck.
    cf Shelby County..perhaps McKkinney can find where in the Constitution the “freedom” of the states implies a “congruence of proportionality”….but I guess what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
    I would stack up the “unconstitutionality” of Roe against the wild eyed so-called baseless reasoning of Shelby any time and any place (hopefully a warm sunny place).

  821. Possibly, yes, yes.
    Under current constitutional doctrine the states, as opposed to the federal government, have what is described IIRC as a general police power, meaning they can do whatever they want absent a prohibition on their conduct like the 14th amendment.
    The federal government, OTOH, is supposed to be one of enumerated powers, such that it can’t do anything unless it can point to a specific provision in the Constitution blessing it’s conduct (although this has kind of been diluted down to a null set).
    Hence, in Roe it was a state acting under its general police power to make abortion illegal, until SCOTUS said it couldn’t do it because abortion is part of the right to privacy which limits state government action.

  822. Possibly, yes, yes.
    Under current constitutional doctrine the states, as opposed to the federal government, have what is described IIRC as a general police power, meaning they can do whatever they want absent a prohibition on their conduct like the 14th amendment.
    The federal government, OTOH, is supposed to be one of enumerated powers, such that it can’t do anything unless it can point to a specific provision in the Constitution blessing it’s conduct (although this has kind of been diluted down to a null set).
    Hence, in Roe it was a state acting under its general police power to make abortion illegal, until SCOTUS said it couldn’t do it because abortion is part of the right to privacy which limits state government action.

  823. McKinney: I was around then
    Me too. And I was a teenager. And it was important to me.
    The three-trimester system wasn’t a part of the Constitution, but stages of pregnancy were most definitely a part of the common law when the Constitution was written. (Read the decision.) It actually was the common law rule that “quickening” was the time when “fetal rights” kicked in.
    McKinney long ago lost my attention regarding women’s health when he opined that pregnancy is not a medical event. Good work, McKinney. Hope that all of our daughters don’t die in childbirth now that your people are in charge.

  824. McKinney: I was around then
    Me too. And I was a teenager. And it was important to me.
    The three-trimester system wasn’t a part of the Constitution, but stages of pregnancy were most definitely a part of the common law when the Constitution was written. (Read the decision.) It actually was the common law rule that “quickening” was the time when “fetal rights” kicked in.
    McKinney long ago lost my attention regarding women’s health when he opined that pregnancy is not a medical event. Good work, McKinney. Hope that all of our daughters don’t die in childbirth now that your people are in charge.

  825. The federal government, OTOH, is supposed to be one of enumerated powers..
    a limited number does not preclude an expansive interpretation of those so enumerated.

  826. The federal government, OTOH, is supposed to be one of enumerated powers..
    a limited number does not preclude an expansive interpretation of those so enumerated.

  831. Say rather
    – tone: much improved
    – content: marginally improved (the part about infrastructure spending), albeit from a very low base

  832. Say rather
    – tone: much improved
    – content: marginally improved (the part about infrastructure spending), albeit from a very low base

  835. As I said bobbyp (although cryptically) the # of things the fed govt cant do because of a lack of an enumerated power has been diluted down to close to a null set.

  836. As I said bobbyp (although cryptically) the # of things the fed govt cant do because of a lack of an enumerated power has been diluted down to close to a null set.

  837. Speaking of issues not enumerated, the word “women” seems to be missing. No wonder the founding fathers forgot to mention trimesters.

  838. Speaking of issues not enumerated, the word “women” seems to be missing. No wonder the founding fathers forgot to mention trimesters.

  841. Somebody read a speech out loud. That was very impressive, to some people.
    Whoever wrote the speech must have come out of Lake Wobegon, where all the children are “beautiful” and all the coal miners are “great”.
    –TP

  842. Somebody read a speech out loud. That was very impressive, to some people.
    Whoever wrote the speech must have come out of Lake Wobegon, where all the children are “beautiful” and all the coal miners are “great”.
    –TP

  843. As an aside, one of the weirdest things to me in the last election cycle is the valorization of coal mining as a wonderful way to make a living.
    My wife’s grandfather died from emphysema, probably a decade or two ahead of his time, as a result of a lifetime of digging that horrible crap out of the ground.
    If we have to use coal, let the machines dig it out. Find better things for people to do.
    I mean no disrespect to the folks who do, and have done, that work. It’s just a killer of a way to make a living, I have to believe that there is a better way forward for the communities that have traditionally depended on mining.
    A friend in WV recently posted a picture on FB of some graffiti near her. Prominent was the phrase “Harlan is more than coal”.
    It is, and can be, and ought to be.

  844. As an aside, one of the weirdest things to me in the last election cycle is the valorization of coal mining as a wonderful way to make a living.
    My wife’s grandfather died from emphysema, probably a decade or two ahead of his time, as a result of a lifetime of digging that horrible crap out of the ground.
    If we have to use coal, let the machines dig it out. Find better things for people to do.
    I mean no disrespect to the folks who do, and have done, that work. It’s just a killer of a way to make a living, I have to believe that there is a better way forward for the communities that have traditionally depended on mining.
    A friend in WV recently posted a picture on FB of some graffiti near her. Prominent was the phrase “Harlan is more than coal”.
    It is, and can be, and ought to be.

  845. From Jamelle Bouie’s twitter: “I’m into the pundits who watched Trump blame Hispanics for crime & warned of a Muslim ‘beachhead’ but then hailed him as ‘presidential'”

  846. From Jamelle Bouie’s twitter: “I’m into the pundits who watched Trump blame Hispanics for crime & warned of a Muslim ‘beachhead’ but then hailed him as ‘presidential'”

  847. Well, coal mining is bathing in nostalgia with the CEOs switching off all those expensive newfangled safety measures* allowing the workers to feel again the warm embrace of the firedamp. And isn’t coal the original black gold? Also black and white are truly alike under the equalizing cover of coal dust. Complaining about black lung disease is pure racism consequently.
    *feel free to bring your own canaries.

  848. Well, coal mining is bathing in nostalgia with the CEOs switching off all those expensive newfangled safety measures* allowing the workers to feel again the warm embrace of the firedamp. And isn’t coal the original black gold? Also black and white are truly alike under the equalizing cover of coal dust. Complaining about black lung disease is pure racism consequently.
    *feel free to bring your own canaries.

  849. Ugh, that still feels more presidential than his choice earlier in the week to take credit for a yuuuugely successful military operation in Yemen while simultaneously blaming “the generals” for the death of a Servicemember in the course of said operation. I’m with wj here; if we assume the bottom of the cup is actually somewhere well below floor level, it’s entirely possible that it could be at least half-full despite looking entirely empty.

  850. Ugh, that still feels more presidential than his choice earlier in the week to take credit for a yuuuugely successful military operation in Yemen while simultaneously blaming “the generals” for the death of a Servicemember in the course of said operation. I’m with wj here; if we assume the bottom of the cup is actually somewhere well below floor level, it’s entirely possible that it could be at least half-full despite looking entirely empty.

  851. Twitter, the never-ending source of new anxiety, pointed me to this article, by Peter Beinart, containing this observation:

    In The Nazi Conscience, Duke historian Claudia Koonz notes that the Nazi newspaper Der Sturmer ran a feature called “Letter Box,” which published readers’ accounts of Jewish crimes. When the Nazis took power, the German state began doing something similar. Frustrated by the failure of most Germans to participate in a boycott of Jewish businesses in April 1933, Adolf Hitler’s government began publicizing Jewish crime statistics as a way of stoking anti-Semitism. In Nazi Germany and the Jews: The Years of Persecution, the historian Saul Friedlander notes that, until 1938, Hitler’s Ministry of Justice ordered prosecutors to forward every criminal indictment against a Jew so the ministry’s press office could publicize it.

    Lovely to see how carefully Trump’s people have studied up.

  852. Twitter, the never-ending source of new anxiety, pointed me to this article, by Peter Beinart, containing this observation:

    In The Nazi Conscience, Duke historian Claudia Koonz notes that the Nazi newspaper Der Sturmer ran a feature called “Letter Box,” which published readers’ accounts of Jewish crimes. When the Nazis took power, the German state began doing something similar. Frustrated by the failure of most Germans to participate in a boycott of Jewish businesses in April 1933, Adolf Hitler’s government began publicizing Jewish crime statistics as a way of stoking anti-Semitism. In Nazi Germany and the Jews: The Years of Persecution, the historian Saul Friedlander notes that, until 1938, Hitler’s Ministry of Justice ordered prosecutors to forward every criminal indictment against a Jew so the ministry’s press office could publicize it.

    Lovely to see how carefully Trump’s people have studied up.

  853. Side by side on the WaPo front page right now:
    This may have been the best speech Trump has given since he entered politics in June 2015, and people rooting for his imminent demise may be disappointed.
    and
    Maiden address filled with numerous inaccuracies
    Feh. I thought this from Atrios was spot-on:
    The real “DC bubble” is a press corps completely immune (or think they are) from any consequences of actual government policy….[they don’t] understand[] how actual policies – and, at times, rhetoric – impact actual people, whether it’s the immigrants cleaning their toilets and driving their cabs or the opioid addicts in exurban and rural Pennsylvania. It isn’t the presidency, it’s the President Show.
    President Show is exactly right. Thus striking the “right tone” and not shitting himself or calling the Democrats traitors is suddenly fncking “Presidential.”
    This too.

  854. Side by side on the WaPo front page right now:
    This may have been the best speech Trump has given since he entered politics in June 2015, and people rooting for his imminent demise may be disappointed.
    and
    Maiden address filled with numerous inaccuracies
    Feh. I thought this from Atrios was spot-on:
    The real “DC bubble” is a press corps completely immune (or think they are) from any consequences of actual government policy….[they don’t] understand[] how actual policies – and, at times, rhetoric – impact actual people, whether it’s the immigrants cleaning their toilets and driving their cabs or the opioid addicts in exurban and rural Pennsylvania. It isn’t the presidency, it’s the President Show.
    President Show is exactly right. Thus striking the “right tone” and not shitting himself or calling the Democrats traitors is suddenly fncking “Presidential.”
    This too.

  855. What else are states free to make illegal? Cremation (as opposed to burial)? Alcohol (as opposed to marijuana)? Payday loans?
    –TP
    Just FYI, there are currently several counties (not, admittedly, states) where alcohol is illegal. At least sales of it.

  856. What else are states free to make illegal? Cremation (as opposed to burial)? Alcohol (as opposed to marijuana)? Payday loans?
    –TP
    Just FYI, there are currently several counties (not, admittedly, states) where alcohol is illegal. At least sales of it.

  857. I was listening to an interview with a guy who voted for Trump and was *thrilled* with everything Trump was saying and doing. The guy didn’t (otherwise) sound like an idiot. He was mainly concerned about his lack of gainful and full employment after losing his job in the 90s as a manager in a factory. He was on disability because his joints were ruined from the physical labor he did before becoming a manager. To him, Trump was the first person to run for president who spoke directly and honestly to his concerns.
    What I don’t get is why people think he’s going to do, or even be able to do, many of the things he’s been saying. Of the thing’s he’s done, and possibly will do, I don’t think they’re going to help this guy or people like him nearly as much as the guy thought.
    It’s just such a transparent con job in my eyes. It vexes me that so many people have fallen for it. Even the stock market likes Trump so far – though that’s a reflection of the people Trump might actually help, at least for a time. I think the bottom’s going to fall out on that count, too, eventually.
    What happens when the competence of this administration is put to the test? The sh1t is going to hit the fan – hard.

  858. I was listening to an interview with a guy who voted for Trump and was *thrilled* with everything Trump was saying and doing. The guy didn’t (otherwise) sound like an idiot. He was mainly concerned about his lack of gainful and full employment after losing his job in the 90s as a manager in a factory. He was on disability because his joints were ruined from the physical labor he did before becoming a manager. To him, Trump was the first person to run for president who spoke directly and honestly to his concerns.
    What I don’t get is why people think he’s going to do, or even be able to do, many of the things he’s been saying. Of the thing’s he’s done, and possibly will do, I don’t think they’re going to help this guy or people like him nearly as much as the guy thought.
    It’s just such a transparent con job in my eyes. It vexes me that so many people have fallen for it. Even the stock market likes Trump so far – though that’s a reflection of the people Trump might actually help, at least for a time. I think the bottom’s going to fall out on that count, too, eventually.
    What happens when the competence of this administration is put to the test? The sh1t is going to hit the fan – hard.

  859. sapient – that would go hand in hand with this:
    Behind President Trump’s efforts to step up deportations and block travel from seven mostly Muslim countries lies a goal that reaches far beyond any immediate terrorism threat: a desire to reshape American demographics for the long term and keep out people who Trump and senior aides believe will not assimilate.
    Ban Muslims from coming in and throw out the Latinos already here. Make America White Again.

  860. sapient – that would go hand in hand with this:
    Behind President Trump’s efforts to step up deportations and block travel from seven mostly Muslim countries lies a goal that reaches far beyond any immediate terrorism threat: a desire to reshape American demographics for the long term and keep out people who Trump and senior aides believe will not assimilate.
    Ban Muslims from coming in and throw out the Latinos already here. Make America White Again.

  861. What I don’t get is why people think he’s going to do, or even be able to do, many of the things he’s been saying.
    If you don’t understand how the government works (not to mention not understanding how the economy works), then magic invocations make sense as a policy approach.

  862. What I don’t get is why people think he’s going to do, or even be able to do, many of the things he’s been saying.
    If you don’t understand how the government works (not to mention not understanding how the economy works), then magic invocations make sense as a policy approach.

  863. What happens when the competence of this administration is put to the test? The sh1t is going to hit the fan – hard.
    You mean if something like this got out of hand? I’m sure the Trump administration would be all over it:
    While similar sudden increases in the number of human avian influenza A(H7N9) cases identified have been reported in previous years the number of cases reported during this season is exceeding previous seasons. The number of human cases with onset from 1 October 2016 accounts for nearly one-third of all the human cases of avian influenza A(H7N9) virus infection reported since 2013.

  864. What happens when the competence of this administration is put to the test? The sh1t is going to hit the fan – hard.
    You mean if something like this got out of hand? I’m sure the Trump administration would be all over it:
    While similar sudden increases in the number of human avian influenza A(H7N9) cases identified have been reported in previous years the number of cases reported during this season is exceeding previous seasons. The number of human cases with onset from 1 October 2016 accounts for nearly one-third of all the human cases of avian influenza A(H7N9) virus infection reported since 2013.

  865. I’m just learning Windows 10. Alt + E + P longer pastes in the comment box. Rather, it destroys everything. Because I’m jammed, I don’t have time to retype a very long, really thoughtful piece that would remake the world. So, sorry about that.

  866. I’m just learning Windows 10. Alt + E + P longer pastes in the comment box. Rather, it destroys everything. Because I’m jammed, I don’t have time to retype a very long, really thoughtful piece that would remake the world. So, sorry about that.

  869. I’m just going to imagine what you would have posted, McKinney. It will be something I fully agree with.
    WMS!!!

  870. I’m just going to imagine what you would have posted, McKinney. It will be something I fully agree with.
    WMS!!!

  871. They can tell you that, but they won’t, because the Devil’s tools have stripped them of their basic human decency, which is why they can go on to make more of the Devil’s tools. It’s a truly vicious cycle.

  872. They can tell you that, but they won’t, because the Devil’s tools have stripped them of their basic human decency, which is why they can go on to make more of the Devil’s tools. It’s a truly vicious cycle.

  873. The IT folks here will mostly disagree with you. I know I will. In my view, we spend our time working hard to make them LESS awful. In a lot of ways, it’s the Red Queen’s race — but it’s what we are trying to accomplish.
    Now if you wanted to say that just about Microsoft….

  874. The IT folks here will mostly disagree with you. I know I will. In my view, we spend our time working hard to make them LESS awful. In a lot of ways, it’s the Red Queen’s race — but it’s what we are trying to accomplish.
    Now if you wanted to say that just about Microsoft….

  875. Now if you wanted to say that just about Microsoft….
    As near as I can make out, MS’s business model is all about establishing customer lock-in.
    Once they have you, you can never escape.
    Today is, however, not the best day to ask my opinion about MS’s products.

  876. Now if you wanted to say that just about Microsoft….
    As near as I can make out, MS’s business model is all about establishing customer lock-in.
    Once they have you, you can never escape.
    Today is, however, not the best day to ask my opinion about MS’s products.

  877. wj: Put another way, it would have been utterly unsurprising if it had been much worse.

    The term “tyranny of low expectations” comes to mind.

    wj: Computers are the devil’s tool! Anyone in IT can tell you that. 😉

    Speaking as a professional, I can assure you that computers are indeed the spawn of Satan.

  878. wj: Put another way, it would have been utterly unsurprising if it had been much worse.

    The term “tyranny of low expectations” comes to mind.

    wj: Computers are the devil’s tool! Anyone in IT can tell you that. 😉

    Speaking as a professional, I can assure you that computers are indeed the spawn of Satan.

  879. Speaking as a professional, I can assure you that computers are indeed the spawn of Satan.
    Or is it the other way around?

  880. Speaking as a professional, I can assure you that computers are indeed the spawn of Satan.
    Or is it the other way around?

  881. This damn computer never does what I want it to do, only what I tell it to do!
    Alt + E + P longer pastes in the comment box. Rather, it destroys everything
    Alt-____ is destroying a lot of things these days.

  882. This damn computer never does what I want it to do, only what I tell it to do!
    Alt + E + P longer pastes in the comment box. Rather, it destroys everything
    Alt-____ is destroying a lot of things these days.

  883. more on sapient’s 11:59AM:
    http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/donald-trump-sparks-gasps-of-horror-as-he-announces-victims-of-immigration-crime-office-during-congress-speech/ar-AAnEHf2
    That’s OK. It will set legal precedent for when I’m in power to set up The Office of Savage Vengeance and Fumigation Against Murderous Conservative Republican Policy Makers, which will go door-to-door and office cubicle-to-office-cubicle throughout the land to neutralize the tens of millions of our internal mortal enemies.
    “Even the stock market likes Trump so far …”
    Well, good German equity traders after 1933 looked out the window at Jews being herded into lorries that had their exhaust systems refitted to circulate the fumes back into the interior of the vehicle and got on the horn to short catalytic converter stocks (you’ll see pollution prevention standards on cars and trucks watered down soon in the U.S.), while loading up on IG Farben stock to front run the new Zyklon B pesticide gas market under development.
    Donald trump, infamously, could shoot a brown woman in the face while simultaneously finger-cannoodling her private parts at the corner of Broad and Wall Street and traders would immediately get on the horn and buy open calls on the gun stocks and short the Catholic Church.
    The stock market … money .. and its handlers are infinitely amoral actors who, if astrophysicists announced that this Friday at 12:00 pm noon our sun would go out and immediately freeze into a ball of ice, would ask their secretaries to warn their families to turn up the house heat while putting in market orders for generator, handwarmer, and long underwear stocks, shorting ice because of the looming oversupply, and hedging forward by selling bundled S&P call options due to expire at 12:01 pm on the same Friday to foreign banks, because if the latter bought those bundled underwater mortgages in 2007-8, well then.
    http://www.infowars.com/washington-post-columnist-compares-trump-stock-market-bump-to-nazi-germany/
    Now, the stocks I still own have gone up, mostly, since November 9, but I’m going to convert much of those recent profits to cash to save up for medical care when Medicare and Medicaid (nursing home care) are deliberately bankrupted and Republican Death Panels are convened for me and I’m also shopping for the latest military automatic weaponry and ammo for when the NRA gets their paid-off Republican dupes in Congress to allow me to carry across state lines with impunity for what I hope will be some indiscriminate (because we religious liberals don’t discriminate) open season hunting, once I’m out of conservative game in my home state.
    McKinney: I hate when that happens, but then I’m comforted by the fact that my errant keyboard mistake has prevented certain anguish for my skimmers here at OBWI.

  884. more on sapient’s 11:59AM:
    http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/donald-trump-sparks-gasps-of-horror-as-he-announces-victims-of-immigration-crime-office-during-congress-speech/ar-AAnEHf2
    That’s OK. It will set legal precedent for when I’m in power to set up The Office of Savage Vengeance and Fumigation Against Murderous Conservative Republican Policy Makers, which will go door-to-door and office cubicle-to-office-cubicle throughout the land to neutralize the tens of millions of our internal mortal enemies.
    “Even the stock market likes Trump so far …”
    Well, good German equity traders after 1933 looked out the window at Jews being herded into lorries that had their exhaust systems refitted to circulate the fumes back into the interior of the vehicle and got on the horn to short catalytic converter stocks (you’ll see pollution prevention standards on cars and trucks watered down soon in the U.S.), while loading up on IG Farben stock to front run the new Zyklon B pesticide gas market under development.
    Donald trump, infamously, could shoot a brown woman in the face while simultaneously finger-cannoodling her private parts at the corner of Broad and Wall Street and traders would immediately get on the horn and buy open calls on the gun stocks and short the Catholic Church.
    The stock market … money .. and its handlers are infinitely amoral actors who, if astrophysicists announced that this Friday at 12:00 pm noon our sun would go out and immediately freeze into a ball of ice, would ask their secretaries to warn their families to turn up the house heat while putting in market orders for generator, handwarmer, and long underwear stocks, shorting ice because of the looming oversupply, and hedging forward by selling bundled S&P call options due to expire at 12:01 pm on the same Friday to foreign banks, because if the latter bought those bundled underwater mortgages in 2007-8, well then.
    http://www.infowars.com/washington-post-columnist-compares-trump-stock-market-bump-to-nazi-germany/
    Now, the stocks I still own have gone up, mostly, since November 9, but I’m going to convert much of those recent profits to cash to save up for medical care when Medicare and Medicaid (nursing home care) are deliberately bankrupted and Republican Death Panels are convened for me and I’m also shopping for the latest military automatic weaponry and ammo for when the NRA gets their paid-off Republican dupes in Congress to allow me to carry across state lines with impunity for what I hope will be some indiscriminate (because we religious liberals don’t discriminate) open season hunting, once I’m out of conservative game in my home state.
    McKinney: I hate when that happens, but then I’m comforted by the fact that my errant keyboard mistake has prevented certain anguish for my skimmers here at OBWI.

  885. “Even the stock market likes Trump so far …”
    Trump fans seem tightly wedded to that point. I usually respond: “dot com bubble. Housing bubble. Tell me again how markets are great at anticipating where the economy is going. Let alone anything else.”

  886. “Even the stock market likes Trump so far …”
    Trump fans seem tightly wedded to that point. I usually respond: “dot com bubble. Housing bubble. Tell me again how markets are great at anticipating where the economy is going. Let alone anything else.”

  887. Ugh, the DWIM op-code (“do what I mean”) is only available in special processing modes and is not fully documented.
    Besides, you’d have to be writing in assembler.

  888. Ugh, the DWIM op-code (“do what I mean”) is only available in special processing modes and is not fully documented.
    Besides, you’d have to be writing in assembler.

  891. Current (rather large) headline on cnn.com:
    Great Speech. What’s next?
    I am genuinely interested in whether CNN ever described one of Obama’s speeches in such a banner headline sort of way. And why is Van Jones suddenly fellating Trump left and right?

  892. Current (rather large) headline on cnn.com:
    Great Speech. What’s next?
    I am genuinely interested in whether CNN ever described one of Obama’s speeches in such a banner headline sort of way. And why is Van Jones suddenly fellating Trump left and right?

  893. I’m just going to imagine what you would have posted, McKinney. It will be something I fully agree with.
    He’s going to post a golf essay? Can’t wait.

  894. I’m just going to imagine what you would have posted, McKinney. It will be something I fully agree with.
    He’s going to post a golf essay? Can’t wait.

  899. Why did this meeting happen? Explain, dupes:
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/03/jeff-sessions-met-twice-russian-ambassador-during-trump-campaign
    The perspiring sweaty little cracker racist Confederate sheriff is meeting with the Russian Ambassador for what reason?
    Did the Ambassador proclaim “They call me Mr. Tibbs!” and then Sessions gave the boy his momma’s biscuit recipe? What, are they having some nigger problems in inner city Moscow our Lester Maddox attorney general restaurateur might have the racist ax-handle chops to consult on.
    Hanh:
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/03/british-dutch-passed-along-intel-about-meetings-between-trump-team-and-russia
    Tell us, Donald, how far should we go to steal the election on your behalf?
    Kill.

  900. Why did this meeting happen? Explain, dupes:
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/03/jeff-sessions-met-twice-russian-ambassador-during-trump-campaign
    The perspiring sweaty little cracker racist Confederate sheriff is meeting with the Russian Ambassador for what reason?
    Did the Ambassador proclaim “They call me Mr. Tibbs!” and then Sessions gave the boy his momma’s biscuit recipe? What, are they having some nigger problems in inner city Moscow our Lester Maddox attorney general restaurateur might have the racist ax-handle chops to consult on.
    Hanh:
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/03/british-dutch-passed-along-intel-about-meetings-between-trump-team-and-russia
    Tell us, Donald, how far should we go to steal the election on your behalf?
    Kill.

  903. He’s saying he was doing his job, so it wasn’t relevant. Um, yeah, so you should have disclosed *and explained* it at the time, not after it came out by other means. How fncking stupid is that?

  904. He’s saying he was doing his job, so it wasn’t relevant. Um, yeah, so you should have disclosed *and explained* it at the time, not after it came out by other means. How fncking stupid is that?

  905. Your attitudes, Mr. Sessions, your point of view are a matter of record:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3Mu-rpO8ws
    My granddaddy had two of them lawn jockies you see in that scene along the back walk from the house to his detached garage.
    That would be on Middletown, Ohio, made recently famous in a book some took as explanation for the trump/Sessions ascension.
    I’m reading it right now and will have a review shortly.

  906. Your attitudes, Mr. Sessions, your point of view are a matter of record:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3Mu-rpO8ws
    My granddaddy had two of them lawn jockies you see in that scene along the back walk from the house to his detached garage.
    That would be on Middletown, Ohio, made recently famous in a book some took as explanation for the trump/Sessions ascension.
    I’m reading it right now and will have a review shortly.

  907. As is, by now, traditional, it’s not so much the deed as the cover up.
    Sessions might have been OK with talking to the Russians. But lying about having done so during his confirmation hearing? Hard to see how that gets ignored. Not that I don’t expect there to be a concerted effort to ignore/downplay it. But I don’t see it succeeding.

  908. As is, by now, traditional, it’s not so much the deed as the cover up.
    Sessions might have been OK with talking to the Russians. But lying about having done so during his confirmation hearing? Hard to see how that gets ignored. Not that I don’t expect there to be a concerted effort to ignore/downplay it. But I don’t see it succeeding.

  909. So the Trump rules on lying to the public and/or under oath appear to be:
    If you’re Donald trump, lying Is always ok.
    If you’re not Donald Trump, lying is okay if you don’t get caught.
    If you get caught, then it’s okay as long as it doesn’t make Trump look bad.
    If you get caught and it makes Donald Trump look bad then you may have to resign, depending on how bad and if initial hand waiving “loo over there a dragon!” Distractions don’t work. This last part is where some media focus is necessary (also, too, the lie cathhing).

  910. So the Trump rules on lying to the public and/or under oath appear to be:
    If you’re Donald trump, lying Is always ok.
    If you’re not Donald Trump, lying is okay if you don’t get caught.
    If you get caught, then it’s okay as long as it doesn’t make Trump look bad.
    If you get caught and it makes Donald Trump look bad then you may have to resign, depending on how bad and if initial hand waiving “loo over there a dragon!” Distractions don’t work. This last part is where some media focus is necessary (also, too, the lie cathhing).

  923. Why did I screw up the link in that last comment
    Perhaps the deep state is taking control of your typing…?

  924. Why did I screw up the link in that last comment
    Perhaps the deep state is taking control of your typing…?

  929. I think he meant “Commie Chinks”, but political correctness (“Asians” would be preferred) got the best of him:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/mike-bost-town-halls-are-like-being-yelled-at-by-orientals
    Here’s a reminder of how the Republican Congressman’s supporters kept their cool back in 2010:
    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article24577294.html
    Want more?
    http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2013/08/07/209919206/5-memorable-moments-when-town-hall-meetings-turned-to-rage
    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article24577294.html
    This guy could use about a million Madame Maos up in his grill. Criticism is unAmerican, says he. Yoko Ono would do, because Gorka probably doesn’t know one slant-eye from another either:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/sebastian-gorka-says-objections-to-trump-undocumented-crime-office-un-american

  930. I think he meant “Commie Chinks”, but political correctness (“Asians” would be preferred) got the best of him:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/mike-bost-town-halls-are-like-being-yelled-at-by-orientals
    Here’s a reminder of how the Republican Congressman’s supporters kept their cool back in 2010:
    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article24577294.html
    Want more?
    http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2013/08/07/209919206/5-memorable-moments-when-town-hall-meetings-turned-to-rage
    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article24577294.html
    This guy could use about a million Madame Maos up in his grill. Criticism is unAmerican, says he. Yoko Ono would do, because Gorka probably doesn’t know one slant-eye from another either:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/sebastian-gorka-says-objections-to-trump-undocumented-crime-office-un-american

  933. I certainly hope the Russian Ambassador was bipartisan enough to drop in at the Democratic Party convention, too.
    I guess they didn’t need to pay a personal visit because they knew everything there was to know through their hacking connections in trump tower and eastern europe.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/carter-page-j-d-gordon-spoke-to-russian-ambassador
    Remember those (every) beds back in the day we were told by conservatives that the Commies were hiding under.
    Now there’s one Russian and a dozen traitorous republicans under every one crowding the dust kittens.
    Aren’t those Paul Ryan’s shoes I spy sticking out from under that futon?
    Oh, yeah, you were just retrieving that book by your other Russkie (remember that word) connection, Ayn Rand, eh, Paul?

  934. I certainly hope the Russian Ambassador was bipartisan enough to drop in at the Democratic Party convention, too.
    I guess they didn’t need to pay a personal visit because they knew everything there was to know through their hacking connections in trump tower and eastern europe.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/carter-page-j-d-gordon-spoke-to-russian-ambassador
    Remember those (every) beds back in the day we were told by conservatives that the Commies were hiding under.
    Now there’s one Russian and a dozen traitorous republicans under every one crowding the dust kittens.
    Aren’t those Paul Ryan’s shoes I spy sticking out from under that futon?
    Oh, yeah, you were just retrieving that book by your other Russkie (remember that word) connection, Ayn Rand, eh, Paul?

  937. Between a minor car accident, a chipped tooth, and various work crises, I’m not keeping up with this.
    But I just saw a list of congressfolks who have called for Sessions’ resignation, and I’m wondering: if it does go that far, is he then out of government entirely? At least for five minutes or so, until his recent replacement resigns so the Alabama governor can then reappoint Sessions….? Am I being too cynical? Too hopeful? What?!?
    A quick Google search on these topics yields this. I didn’t even finish that article; I’m not sure I want to know.

  938. Between a minor car accident, a chipped tooth, and various work crises, I’m not keeping up with this.
    But I just saw a list of congressfolks who have called for Sessions’ resignation, and I’m wondering: if it does go that far, is he then out of government entirely? At least for five minutes or so, until his recent replacement resigns so the Alabama governor can then reappoint Sessions….? Am I being too cynical? Too hopeful? What?!?
    A quick Google search on these topics yields this. I didn’t even finish that article; I’m not sure I want to know.

  939. JanieM, hope all crises (health and otherwise) are resolved soon, with minor or no repercussions. In the meantime, this one will run and run…..

  940. JanieM, hope all crises (health and otherwise) are resolved soon, with minor or no repercussions. In the meantime, this one will run and run…..

  943. A pet peeve – if you never actually served, you don’t get to wear military kit to give great big speeches. Including flight jackets. And even if you are the CiC.
    At least Bush actually flew a plane now and then.

  944. A pet peeve – if you never actually served, you don’t get to wear military kit to give great big speeches. Including flight jackets. And even if you are the CiC.
    At least Bush actually flew a plane now and then.

  947. The military has ribbons for the various campaigns in which the individual served. I wonder what the ribbon is for NYC in the 1970s…?

  948. The military has ribbons for the various campaigns in which the individual served. I wonder what the ribbon is for NYC in the 1970s…?

  949. From http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trumpbeat-to-know-what-trump-will-do-follow-the-money/ – an excerpt that I thought was indicative of the sort of innumerate Trumpian logic that not enough people can see through:

    First off, the EPA’s budget is already tiny in comparison to those of other federal agencies. Its cost of operations in 2016 was about $8.7 billion. In contrast, the estimated 2016 budget for the Department of Agriculture was $164 billion, the State Department got $29.5 billion, and NASA got $19 billion. Put another way, everything the EPA spent last year amounts to about 1.5 percent of the budget for the Department of Defense, the agency President Trump is hoping to further fund through cuts to EPA and other agencies. So giving 25 percent of the EPA’s budget to the Department of Defense would increase the latter’s budget by less than half of 1 percent.
    Meanwhile, the largest chunk of EPA spending — 46 percent, or nearly $4 billion — goes to assistance agreements for states and Native American tribes. These are grants that fund locally directed environmental projects — exactly the kind of locals-know-best work that new agency Administrator Scott Pruitt has long talked of supporting. The second-biggest budgetary item for the EPA: environmental programs and management, i.e., enforcement, education and other programs that are directly tied to maintaining clean air and water. Those take up another $2.7 billion. Those two categories alone account for more than 75 percent of the money the EPA spends. What’s left over? Mostly, it’s money for Superfund sites, leaking underground storage tank remediation, and the science and technological research that assists the agency in getting all these other jobs done. The EPA has already cut 20 percent from its budget since 2011. “You really want to be sure you are not cutting the meat and muscle with the fat,” Republican Rep. Tom Cole of Oklahoma told the trade publication Inside EPA on Tuesday.

  950. From http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trumpbeat-to-know-what-trump-will-do-follow-the-money/ – an excerpt that I thought was indicative of the sort of innumerate Trumpian logic that not enough people can see through:

    First off, the EPA’s budget is already tiny in comparison to those of other federal agencies. Its cost of operations in 2016 was about $8.7 billion. In contrast, the estimated 2016 budget for the Department of Agriculture was $164 billion, the State Department got $29.5 billion, and NASA got $19 billion. Put another way, everything the EPA spent last year amounts to about 1.5 percent of the budget for the Department of Defense, the agency President Trump is hoping to further fund through cuts to EPA and other agencies. So giving 25 percent of the EPA’s budget to the Department of Defense would increase the latter’s budget by less than half of 1 percent.
    Meanwhile, the largest chunk of EPA spending — 46 percent, or nearly $4 billion — goes to assistance agreements for states and Native American tribes. These are grants that fund locally directed environmental projects — exactly the kind of locals-know-best work that new agency Administrator Scott Pruitt has long talked of supporting. The second-biggest budgetary item for the EPA: environmental programs and management, i.e., enforcement, education and other programs that are directly tied to maintaining clean air and water. Those take up another $2.7 billion. Those two categories alone account for more than 75 percent of the money the EPA spends. What’s left over? Mostly, it’s money for Superfund sites, leaking underground storage tank remediation, and the science and technological research that assists the agency in getting all these other jobs done. The EPA has already cut 20 percent from its budget since 2011. “You really want to be sure you are not cutting the meat and muscle with the fat,” Republican Rep. Tom Cole of Oklahoma told the trade publication Inside EPA on Tuesday.

  951. The thing is, all those numbers are meaningless. They just don’t matter. What matters is optics — nothing else.

  952. The thing is, all those numbers are meaningless. They just don’t matter. What matters is optics — nothing else.

  953. Hasn’t Trump already said that he’s going to cut “foreign aid” by $50B to fund other things?
    “He can’t DO that, there isn’t $50B in the foreign aid budget!” you might say.
    HA! Negative foreign aid: beat up other countries and take their stuff.
    I’ve got to admire it; it’s very Viking, amirite?

  954. Hasn’t Trump already said that he’s going to cut “foreign aid” by $50B to fund other things?
    “He can’t DO that, there isn’t $50B in the foreign aid budget!” you might say.
    HA! Negative foreign aid: beat up other countries and take their stuff.
    I’ve got to admire it; it’s very Viking, amirite?

  955. I wonder what the ribbon is for NYC in the 1970s…?
    The bronze Quaalude and the silver coke spoon with oak leaf cluster.
    And no I’m not picking on Trump, it’s just a NYC in the 70’s thing.

  956. I wonder what the ribbon is for NYC in the 1970s…?
    The bronze Quaalude and the silver coke spoon with oak leaf cluster.
    And no I’m not picking on Trump, it’s just a NYC in the 70’s thing.

  957. the largest chunk of EPA spending — 46 percent, or nearly $4 billion — goes to assistance agreements for states and Native American tribes.
    I’m guessing support for Native American tribes is not at the top of the Trump policy agenda.

  958. the largest chunk of EPA spending — 46 percent, or nearly $4 billion — goes to assistance agreements for states and Native American tribes.
    I’m guessing support for Native American tribes is not at the top of the Trump policy agenda.

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