National Security Council replaced with Yes Men

by

–by Sebastian

Lots of things scare me about Trump.  So many that it is really hard to focus on one.  Which I'm half-convinced is a strategy, or at least a fortuitous-for-him habit that Trump has of throwing up so many crazy things that you can't grasp any one*.

One of the few tenuous strands of hope I've hung on to is that at least on some of the most important issues, career experts might be able to talk some sense out of him.  It was a foolish hope, but it was my hope.

Trump removed the Joint Chiefs of Staff from their regular place in the National Security Council.

Trump removed the Joint Chiefs of Staff from their regular place in the National Security Council.

I know I wrote that twice.  But once could be skipped over.

I don't care about unprecedented.  I care about deeply foolish.  Elevating Bannon to the Security Council is one thing.  He's Trump's yes man, and primary 'advisor'.  It is a move which reveals the shallowness of Trump's ability to think, but it would have been no more alarming than the fact that Bannon is in the White House at all.

Working to formally cut the Joint Chiefs of Staff out of the loop on National Security matters is…..I honestly don't the words to describe how dangerous that is.  It not only removes the sanity check on his foreign policy, it also keeps them out of the loop on developing issues.  This is actually insane. 

 

*Mild digression on his chaff strategy.  Intentional or not, one of the big ways this mode of operation works is by keeping things off the radar of low information voters.  If someone checks in with politics once a month, they are never going to hear the same thing twice.  Once month it will be Planned Parenthood is in trouble, next month immigrants are in trouble, next month health care is threatened.  Never the same thing twice.  Since the average non-politically connected person may be immediately touched by only one of those things in the short term, it can create the impression that people are causing a lot of fuss for no reason.  It is a scary strategy because the obvious counter is to focus on just one thing.  That might work with your average bad President, but we can't afford to ignore a bunch of the things he does. 

968 thoughts on “National Security Council replaced with Yes Men”

  1. Elevating Bannon to the Security Council is one thing. He’s Trump’s yes man, and primary ‘advisor’.
    I really wish that Bannon was merely a Trump “yes man.” Unfortunately, he isn’t there just to agree with whatever Trump’s whim of the instant is. He is, from all appearances, actually driving some of the worst actions that Trump is taking.

  2. Elevating Bannon to the Security Council is one thing. He’s Trump’s yes man, and primary ‘advisor’.
    I really wish that Bannon was merely a Trump “yes man.” Unfortunately, he isn’t there just to agree with whatever Trump’s whim of the instant is. He is, from all appearances, actually driving some of the worst actions that Trump is taking.

  3. Scott Adams is an incredibly smug and loathsome human being, so if clicking on his website helps him in some way, don’t click on this link. I read him so you don’t have to. But he makes the same observation Sebastian makes. Trump is flooding the news with various outrageous policies and/ or remarks, so it is hard to keep up. If some of the outrage on some issues turns out to be overblown, it works in his favor. I see this at the conservative blogs I read. Any mistaken criticism of Trump ( real or imaginary) is taken as an excuse to ignore all criticism of Trump. I guess we all live in epistemic bubbles to some degree, but Trump is amplifying the problem, maybe deliberately.
    http://blog.dilbert.com/post/156399716951/outrage-dilution

  4. Scott Adams is an incredibly smug and loathsome human being, so if clicking on his website helps him in some way, don’t click on this link. I read him so you don’t have to. But he makes the same observation Sebastian makes. Trump is flooding the news with various outrageous policies and/ or remarks, so it is hard to keep up. If some of the outrage on some issues turns out to be overblown, it works in his favor. I see this at the conservative blogs I read. Any mistaken criticism of Trump ( real or imaginary) is taken as an excuse to ignore all criticism of Trump. I guess we all live in epistemic bubbles to some degree, but Trump is amplifying the problem, maybe deliberately.
    http://blog.dilbert.com/post/156399716951/outrage-dilution

  5. I think this is the natural outgrowth of the conservative ‘outrage of the day’ strategy with Obama.
    After a while, they realized that screaming about nonsense loses the interest of the public, who get worn down. The difference is that these outrages are real, but have the same shelflife of attention.
    I know I discounted almost everything that the rightwing press said about Obama (and the World) for the last 8 years, and literally stopped looking at it since it just caused high blood pressure.
    A close friend and Trump supporter whom I served with in Iraq had this to say when I asked him if he is still a proud Trump supported after the policy to exclude our interpreters/fellow Iraqi/Kurdish Soldiers that we worked with:
    We got to start extreme to start anew.

  6. I think this is the natural outgrowth of the conservative ‘outrage of the day’ strategy with Obama.
    After a while, they realized that screaming about nonsense loses the interest of the public, who get worn down. The difference is that these outrages are real, but have the same shelflife of attention.
    I know I discounted almost everything that the rightwing press said about Obama (and the World) for the last 8 years, and literally stopped looking at it since it just caused high blood pressure.
    A close friend and Trump supporter whom I served with in Iraq had this to say when I asked him if he is still a proud Trump supported after the policy to exclude our interpreters/fellow Iraqi/Kurdish Soldiers that we worked with:
    We got to start extreme to start anew.

  7. jrudkis:
    Where does your friend get his news? Can you think of any way to pierce his bubble & realize how horrible that way of thinking is? It does sound very much like things Bannon has said.

  8. jrudkis:
    Where does your friend get his news? Can you think of any way to pierce his bubble & realize how horrible that way of thinking is? It does sound very much like things Bannon has said.

  9. Sebastian:
    Your post is overall a YES from me, but your “digression” at the end is a HELL YES.
    The thing is, being a “low information” citizen shouldn’t be this dire. You should be able to work hard at something else and only pay attention to politics occasionally, without investing many hours a week at it, not to mention daily emotion.

  10. Sebastian:
    Your post is overall a YES from me, but your “digression” at the end is a HELL YES.
    The thing is, being a “low information” citizen shouldn’t be this dire. You should be able to work hard at something else and only pay attention to politics occasionally, without investing many hours a week at it, not to mention daily emotion.

  11. Dr. Science,
    Fox, Facebook, etc. And no, I spent a year along with his adult kids giving him facts and thought.
    Interestingly, his father was an immigrant (Philippines), and he was a great leader for Soldiers of all races/creeds/gender/orientation. Literally was ahead of the curve on issues like that. He was onboard in 2007 that Obama was the best of the bunch running. So this is a new attitude that doesn’t fit his history, but facts don’t matter anymore. His longtime employer did just move to China, and while he got a great buy out, that might be the initiator.

  12. Dr. Science,
    Fox, Facebook, etc. And no, I spent a year along with his adult kids giving him facts and thought.
    Interestingly, his father was an immigrant (Philippines), and he was a great leader for Soldiers of all races/creeds/gender/orientation. Literally was ahead of the curve on issues like that. He was onboard in 2007 that Obama was the best of the bunch running. So this is a new attitude that doesn’t fit his history, but facts don’t matter anymore. His longtime employer did just move to China, and while he got a great buy out, that might be the initiator.

  13. For anybody who is interested, the petition to stop or postpone Trump’s State Visit is going up very fast, currently up to over 790,000, but adding thousands every minute or so. I haven’t seen anything like it since the petition to rerun the Brexit vote. Like that one, it probably won’t achieve that much, but it’s a handy stick with which to beat the super-sensitive POTUS. If anybody wants to look at it from time to time, this is the link:
    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928

  14. For anybody who is interested, the petition to stop or postpone Trump’s State Visit is going up very fast, currently up to over 790,000, but adding thousands every minute or so. I haven’t seen anything like it since the petition to rerun the Brexit vote. Like that one, it probably won’t achieve that much, but it’s a handy stick with which to beat the super-sensitive POTUS. If anybody wants to look at it from time to time, this is the link:
    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928

  15. GftNC, do you suppose that all those signatures are from illegal immigrants to the UK. 😉
    It seems likely to be the spin put on the petition by the White House….

  16. GftNC, do you suppose that all those signatures are from illegal immigrants to the UK. 😉
    It seems likely to be the spin put on the petition by the White House….

  17. Best thing to do with a Trump state visit to the UK is detain him at the airport while you “figure out what’s going on”, then send him to Syria.
    Don’t send him back, please.

  18. Best thing to do with a Trump state visit to the UK is detain him at the airport while you “figure out what’s going on”, then send him to Syria.
    Don’t send him back, please.

  19. I wonder if yanking the CotJCoS from the NSC might cast a first shadow doubt in the minds of any significant number of Trump-supporting servicemembers. I’m not optimistic, but maybe, if they notice…

  20. I wonder if yanking the CotJCoS from the NSC might cast a first shadow doubt in the minds of any significant number of Trump-supporting servicemembers. I’m not optimistic, but maybe, if they notice…

  21. Well wj, it’s ready-made for him to put that spin on it, since as you know he “revealed” some time ago that vast swathes of the country and big cities in the UK are no-go areas for police and non-Muslims. So it all figures.
    Did you see this, from the Fox twitter feed? I just posted it on the other thread.
    https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/825814926019141633

  22. Well wj, it’s ready-made for him to put that spin on it, since as you know he “revealed” some time ago that vast swathes of the country and big cities in the UK are no-go areas for police and non-Muslims. So it all figures.
    Did you see this, from the Fox twitter feed? I just posted it on the other thread.
    https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/825814926019141633

  23. I’ve been wondering this. Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that Parliament did force the PM to rescind the invitation for a state visit. What would Trump’s dedication to getting revenge for perceived slights lead him to do?
    Something juvenile and more damaging to the US than to Britain, most likely. But what exactly? I expect most us here aren’t petty enough to guess. But I do wonder.

  24. I’ve been wondering this. Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that Parliament did force the PM to rescind the invitation for a state visit. What would Trump’s dedication to getting revenge for perceived slights lead him to do?
    Something juvenile and more damaging to the US than to Britain, most likely. But what exactly? I expect most us here aren’t petty enough to guess. But I do wonder.

  25. Before I spout off and call Donny and his rabid supporters racist ‘effing assholes, what is the difference as between “NSC meetings” and the “Principals Committee”?
    The peanut gallery is trying to stay in line here, and it’s only been a litter over a week.

  26. Before I spout off and call Donny and his rabid supporters racist ‘effing assholes, what is the difference as between “NSC meetings” and the “Principals Committee”?
    The peanut gallery is trying to stay in line here, and it’s only been a litter over a week.

  27. Uh no, taking the DNI and JCS off the NSC is to make sure they don’t get in the way of plans to be implemented and don’t have time to pull a Seven Days in May.
    Trumpkins are picking targets.
    Everything gets easier if the US is at war and the world hates us.

  28. Uh no, taking the DNI and JCS off the NSC is to make sure they don’t get in the way of plans to be implemented and don’t have time to pull a Seven Days in May.
    Trumpkins are picking targets.
    Everything gets easier if the US is at war and the world hates us.

  29. Members of the “Principles Committee” are members of NSC who will be present at all NSC meetings barring exceptional circumstances vs. invited attendees to specific meetings. In effect, “Principles” are the NSC. CJCOS and DNI are explicitly authorized to attend and participate in committee meetings by statute, but (also per statute) this is subject at the direction of the President. DNI and CJCOS just got bumped from de facto member to invited attendee status, so it’s quite reasonable to refer to them as having been removed from the Council as the linked article and OP.
    The terminology arises from there also being a Deputy’s Committee which is, unsurprisingly, their deputies.

  30. Members of the “Principles Committee” are members of NSC who will be present at all NSC meetings barring exceptional circumstances vs. invited attendees to specific meetings. In effect, “Principles” are the NSC. CJCOS and DNI are explicitly authorized to attend and participate in committee meetings by statute, but (also per statute) this is subject at the direction of the President. DNI and CJCOS just got bumped from de facto member to invited attendee status, so it’s quite reasonable to refer to them as having been removed from the Council as the linked article and OP.
    The terminology arises from there also being a Deputy’s Committee which is, unsurprisingly, their deputies.

  31. And afterwards, maybe after a few dozen kilotons get dropped by a loyal pilot, it ain’t gonna matter much for Democrats to get Trump and Bannon outofthere and yell to the world
    “It wasn’t us! Not our fault!”
    The world won’t listen, just surround the US with diplomatic, economic, and military walls (which is what Bannon wants) and tell us to make them trust again someday. Somehow, like eliminating the Republican Party like it was the Nazi Party.
    And then we can get to work. Start by bringing back the Count.

  32. And afterwards, maybe after a few dozen kilotons get dropped by a loyal pilot, it ain’t gonna matter much for Democrats to get Trump and Bannon outofthere and yell to the world
    “It wasn’t us! Not our fault!”
    The world won’t listen, just surround the US with diplomatic, economic, and military walls (which is what Bannon wants) and tell us to make them trust again someday. Somehow, like eliminating the Republican Party like it was the Nazi Party.
    And then we can get to work. Start by bringing back the Count.

  33. Elevating Bannon to the Security Council is one thing. He’s Trump’s yes man, and primary ‘advisor’.
    I’m with wj, Bannon is not a yes man. And his eleveation to the NSC is no small thing.
    Agreed that removing the joint chiefs is bizarre to the point of being disturbing.

  34. Elevating Bannon to the Security Council is one thing. He’s Trump’s yes man, and primary ‘advisor’.
    I’m with wj, Bannon is not a yes man. And his eleveation to the NSC is no small thing.
    Agreed that removing the joint chiefs is bizarre to the point of being disturbing.

  35. Director of National Intelligence has also been demoted from principal status.
    So, a National Security Council whose principals do not include the DNI or any of the joint chiefs. No intel, no military.
    But who will include an ex-hedge fund, ex-movie producer, ex-snotty conservative blog editor who wants to break everything in sight.
    Fabulous.

  36. Director of National Intelligence has also been demoted from principal status.
    So, a National Security Council whose principals do not include the DNI or any of the joint chiefs. No intel, no military.
    But who will include an ex-hedge fund, ex-movie producer, ex-snotty conservative blog editor who wants to break everything in sight.
    Fabulous.

  39. Sebastian may remember I have been calling for civil war since 2004 or so, back went many of you kids were in kneepants or something.
    Bout time Democrats brought the wars back home: Iraqis and Libyans and Syrians and Yemeni shouldn’t have to die so that Democrats can feel all peaceable while they outsource the wetwork of Empire to their allies in the Republican Party.
    I think our sins are finally catching up with us. This Nova Roma should go up in flames.
    Still lurking and reading everything. You’d think after a decade of burning hate I would retire, but one needs a reason to go on, and I have a mountain of corpses to look forward to.

  40. Sebastian may remember I have been calling for civil war since 2004 or so, back went many of you kids were in kneepants or something.
    Bout time Democrats brought the wars back home: Iraqis and Libyans and Syrians and Yemeni shouldn’t have to die so that Democrats can feel all peaceable while they outsource the wetwork of Empire to their allies in the Republican Party.
    I think our sins are finally catching up with us. This Nova Roma should go up in flames.
    Still lurking and reading everything. You’d think after a decade of burning hate I would retire, but one needs a reason to go on, and I have a mountain of corpses to look forward to.

  41. Good to hear from you bob, although not happy to see reality bending toward your worldview (no offense). from reports I am seeing CBP acting like trumps private security force at Dulles

  42. Good to hear from you bob, although not happy to see reality bending toward your worldview (no offense). from reports I am seeing CBP acting like trumps private security force at Dulles

  43. I echo Ugh’s sentiments, but the Count wasn’t kicked out, the door is always open, though one may think of it in the same was as the door was open in the Hateful Eight…
    I’ve always appreciated your insight (and your J-pop knowledge) so welcome, but please try to avoid turning your fire out anyone here. thx

  44. I echo Ugh’s sentiments, but the Count wasn’t kicked out, the door is always open, though one may think of it in the same was as the door was open in the Hateful Eight…
    I’ve always appreciated your insight (and your J-pop knowledge) so welcome, but please try to avoid turning your fire out anyone here. thx

  45. NV, what is your take on Trump’s service members support? Is it different between those serving now and those who are out?

  46. NV, what is your take on Trump’s service members support? Is it different between those serving now and those who are out?

  49. https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/01/29/quebec-city-mosque-shooting/
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/30/quebec-mosque-shooting-canada-deathshttps:
    http://juanitajean.com/victoria-texas/
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/15/us/washington-mosque-arson/
    Nice to see mcmanus back in play. Hi back at you GFTNC.
    I’ll be along once in a while. I’m placing myself behind a wall, like the useless media, except there is no pay.
    Looks like Sebastian is taking my place, to his credit, though he lacks my edge, but I kid. The “chaff” theory is on the money. How many shiny horrific occurrences can any one person, or a Nation, find appalling as they are softened up for the one truly appalling thing? They’ll tell you to pack some things and report to the staging area. You’ll thank them for the straw they throw down in the boxcars.
    We are all beggars now. Bannon to the left, little mother, Ryan to the right.
    The Beast is considering your case.
    I’ve miscalculated. I thought the next one would be the Beast.
    Like a juggler, I’m training myself to hold a volume of Proust, Joyce, Austen, or Dostoevsky in one hand while learning to operate a fully automatic piece of killing military weaponry in the other, as the machete twirls in the air above me in reserve for those special conservative Trump Republican snowflakes, the cold-blooded, conservative murderers.
    See ya round, lovers. I’ve said enough to seal it.
    Here’s a soundtrack for the End of it all.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE-wx_jpQUc

  50. https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/01/29/quebec-city-mosque-shooting/
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/30/quebec-mosque-shooting-canada-deathshttps:
    http://juanitajean.com/victoria-texas/
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/15/us/washington-mosque-arson/
    Nice to see mcmanus back in play. Hi back at you GFTNC.
    I’ll be along once in a while. I’m placing myself behind a wall, like the useless media, except there is no pay.
    Looks like Sebastian is taking my place, to his credit, though he lacks my edge, but I kid. The “chaff” theory is on the money. How many shiny horrific occurrences can any one person, or a Nation, find appalling as they are softened up for the one truly appalling thing? They’ll tell you to pack some things and report to the staging area. You’ll thank them for the straw they throw down in the boxcars.
    We are all beggars now. Bannon to the left, little mother, Ryan to the right.
    The Beast is considering your case.
    I’ve miscalculated. I thought the next one would be the Beast.
    Like a juggler, I’m training myself to hold a volume of Proust, Joyce, Austen, or Dostoevsky in one hand while learning to operate a fully automatic piece of killing military weaponry in the other, as the machete twirls in the air above me in reserve for those special conservative Trump Republican snowflakes, the cold-blooded, conservative murderers.
    See ya round, lovers. I’ve said enough to seal it.
    Here’s a soundtrack for the End of it all.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE-wx_jpQUc

  53. Yonatan Zunger wonders if this is the trial run for a coup.
    Reading that sped my pulse up a bit. If there’s a mastermind behind all this, it’s Bannon, and I think we’ve all read his stated desire to wreak havoc on our nation’s institutions. I hope against hope that I’m just being paranoid.

  54. Yonatan Zunger wonders if this is the trial run for a coup.
    Reading that sped my pulse up a bit. If there’s a mastermind behind all this, it’s Bannon, and I think we’ve all read his stated desire to wreak havoc on our nation’s institutions. I hope against hope that I’m just being paranoid.

  55. The Zunger piece seems to demand more coordination and sophistication from Trump and Bannon than seems warranted.
    That said, if Bannon really is testing the strength of the collateral bar rule (among other things) then we are potentially in big trouble.

  56. The Zunger piece seems to demand more coordination and sophistication from Trump and Bannon than seems warranted.
    That said, if Bannon really is testing the strength of the collateral bar rule (among other things) then we are potentially in big trouble.

  57. The Zunger piece seems to demand more coordination and sophistication from Trump and Bannon than seems warranted.
    Trump’s a tool, in more than one sense. Bannon’s the one who worries me, at least in terms of planning and executing power grabs. Trump might blow something up out of pure incompetence or impulse, but he’s too much of a child mentally to hatch longer-term schemes on his own.
    But, yeah, it might be a bit of stretch for Bannon as well. Still, the possibility that he really knows what he’s doing isn’t remote enough for me and my peace of mind.

  58. The Zunger piece seems to demand more coordination and sophistication from Trump and Bannon than seems warranted.
    Trump’s a tool, in more than one sense. Bannon’s the one who worries me, at least in terms of planning and executing power grabs. Trump might blow something up out of pure incompetence or impulse, but he’s too much of a child mentally to hatch longer-term schemes on his own.
    But, yeah, it might be a bit of stretch for Bannon as well. Still, the possibility that he really knows what he’s doing isn’t remote enough for me and my peace of mind.

  59. lj: … the Count wasn’t kicked out
    Very true. DocSci merely threatened to ban him for making a “threat” about rape. That ticked me off, because the relevant passage in The Count’s comment was a malediction, not a threat. And the main point anyway was that the idiot Congressman in question should be “forced to prove it”.
    The difference between a malediction and a threat is substantial. “Drop dead” is not the same as “I’m coming to kill you”. But context matters: when the speaker is a Caligula or a Saddam, the hearer is entitled to take either phrase as a threat. Even when the speaker is a Sarah Palin or an Alex Jones, a malediction (pronounced before an audience of millions) can amount to a threat by incitement. And even when the speaker is a self-styled witch-doctor, his malediction can be a threat — if the hearer takes voodoo seriously. Otherwise a malediction is at worst an impolite expression of righteous anger.
    When ill-wishing is backed by power, its mere expression is arguably a threat. It’s the powerful among us who should keep that in mind.
    –TP

  60. lj: … the Count wasn’t kicked out
    Very true. DocSci merely threatened to ban him for making a “threat” about rape. That ticked me off, because the relevant passage in The Count’s comment was a malediction, not a threat. And the main point anyway was that the idiot Congressman in question should be “forced to prove it”.
    The difference between a malediction and a threat is substantial. “Drop dead” is not the same as “I’m coming to kill you”. But context matters: when the speaker is a Caligula or a Saddam, the hearer is entitled to take either phrase as a threat. Even when the speaker is a Sarah Palin or an Alex Jones, a malediction (pronounced before an audience of millions) can amount to a threat by incitement. And even when the speaker is a self-styled witch-doctor, his malediction can be a threat — if the hearer takes voodoo seriously. Otherwise a malediction is at worst an impolite expression of righteous anger.
    When ill-wishing is backed by power, its mere expression is arguably a threat. It’s the powerful among us who should keep that in mind.
    –TP

  61. My objection (so far as it went, which ain’t that far) to the Count was that his language was ceasing to shock. Which makes me uncomfortable with myself.

  62. My objection (so far as it went, which ain’t that far) to the Count was that his language was ceasing to shock. Which makes me uncomfortable with myself.

  65. Yes, well I’m sure our RW contingent can explain how Trump’s most recent statute-violating executive order is completely okay when compared to the tyrant Obama’s tyrannical executive order tyranny.

  66. Yes, well I’m sure our RW contingent can explain how Trump’s most recent statute-violating executive order is completely okay when compared to the tyrant Obama’s tyrannical executive order tyranny.

  67. Nigel wrote:
    “My objection (so far as it went, which ain’t that far) to the Count was that his language was ceasing to shock. Which makes me uncomfortable with myself.”
    Why, the Count himself would agree with that assessment, which might be one reason he was leaving anyway. Now, if he would just leave already! 😉
    Tony: I appreciate the delineation of threat versus malediction. The Count might have been having some trouble getting on top of the difference. I’ll have a chin wag with him.
    “Banquo: It will be rain tonight.
    1ST Murderer: Let it come down.”
    “Bring out the Gimp.” Pulp Fiction.

  68. Nigel wrote:
    “My objection (so far as it went, which ain’t that far) to the Count was that his language was ceasing to shock. Which makes me uncomfortable with myself.”
    Why, the Count himself would agree with that assessment, which might be one reason he was leaving anyway. Now, if he would just leave already! 😉
    Tony: I appreciate the delineation of threat versus malediction. The Count might have been having some trouble getting on top of the difference. I’ll have a chin wag with him.
    “Banquo: It will be rain tonight.
    1ST Murderer: Let it come down.”
    “Bring out the Gimp.” Pulp Fiction.

  69. Nigel wrote:
    “My objection (so far as it went, which ain’t that far) to the Count was that his language was ceasing to shock. Which makes me uncomfortable with myself.”
    Why, the Count himself would agree with that assessment, which might be one reason he was leaving anyway. Now, if he would just leave already! 😉
    Tony: I appreciate the delineation of threat versus malediction. The Count might have been having some trouble getting on top of the difference. I’ll have a chin wag with him.
    “Banquo: It will be rain tonight.
    1ST Murderer: Let it come down.”
    “Bring out the Gimp.” Pulp Fiction.

  70. Nigel wrote:
    “My objection (so far as it went, which ain’t that far) to the Count was that his language was ceasing to shock. Which makes me uncomfortable with myself.”
    Why, the Count himself would agree with that assessment, which might be one reason he was leaving anyway. Now, if he would just leave already! 😉
    Tony: I appreciate the delineation of threat versus malediction. The Count might have been having some trouble getting on top of the difference. I’ll have a chin wag with him.
    “Banquo: It will be rain tonight.
    1ST Murderer: Let it come down.”
    “Bring out the Gimp.” Pulp Fiction.

  71. Nigel wrote:
    “My objection (so far as it went, which ain’t that far) to the Count was that his language was ceasing to shock. Which makes me uncomfortable with myself.”
    Why, the Count himself would agree with that assessment, which might be one reason he was leaving anyway. Now, if he would just leave already! 😉
    Tony: I appreciate the delineation of threat versus malediction. The Count might have been having some trouble getting on top of the difference. I’ll have a chin wag with him.
    “Banquo: It will be rain tonight.
    1ST Murderer: Let it come down.”
    “Bring out the Gimp.” Pulp Fiction.

  72. Nigel wrote:
    “My objection (so far as it went, which ain’t that far) to the Count was that his language was ceasing to shock. Which makes me uncomfortable with myself.”
    Why, the Count himself would agree with that assessment, which might be one reason he was leaving anyway. Now, if he would just leave already! 😉
    Tony: I appreciate the delineation of threat versus malediction. The Count might have been having some trouble getting on top of the difference. I’ll have a chin wag with him.
    “Banquo: It will be rain tonight.
    1ST Murderer: Let it come down.”
    “Bring out the Gimp.” Pulp Fiction.

  75. ISTM we are now back in the state we were in under the Bush Administration with respect to national security issues/Gitmo/NSA spying, which is that the presumption of regularity no longer applies.
    (I think that’s the correct presumption, essentially that if the government show up in court and says it has done something then the court is going to assume it was done without inquiring further)

  76. ISTM we are now back in the state we were in under the Bush Administration with respect to national security issues/Gitmo/NSA spying, which is that the presumption of regularity no longer applies.
    (I think that’s the correct presumption, essentially that if the government show up in court and says it has done something then the court is going to assume it was done without inquiring further)

  77. ISTM we are now back in the state we were in under the Bush Administration with respect to national security issues/Gitmo/NSA spying
    ISTM that Gitmo is still open and NSA spying proceeds forthwith.
    The trouble with normal is it only gets worse.

  78. ISTM we are now back in the state we were in under the Bush Administration with respect to national security issues/Gitmo/NSA spying
    ISTM that Gitmo is still open and NSA spying proceeds forthwith.
    The trouble with normal is it only gets worse.

  79. I’m on my phone, so I’ll save a reply to lj for later. But can I just throw out a probably-quite-clueless WTH to the LGF link above? They’re… not reactionary rightwingers. They were… reasonable-sounding and stuff. I had an ad soliciting aid for refugees. When did THAT happen?

  80. I’m on my phone, so I’ll save a reply to lj for later. But can I just throw out a probably-quite-clueless WTH to the LGF link above? They’re… not reactionary rightwingers. They were… reasonable-sounding and stuff. I had an ad soliciting aid for refugees. When did THAT happen?

  81. russell – well, I would at least give the Obama administration credit for not actively setting things up to avoid the jurisdiction of the federal courts and keeping everything secret from the american people (although they did less well in this regards on NSA spying). He did want to close Gitmo but Congress shut him down on that with veto proof majorities, although he could have done a better job of it back in 2009 and perhaps have gotten there. And AFAICT there are no more black sites in places where we are not engaged in hostilities, or torture.
    But yes, yesterday’s beyond the pale is today’s new normal.
    in other news, google brings it with the Fred Korematsu doodle today (it’s his birthday). Well done.

  82. russell – well, I would at least give the Obama administration credit for not actively setting things up to avoid the jurisdiction of the federal courts and keeping everything secret from the american people (although they did less well in this regards on NSA spying). He did want to close Gitmo but Congress shut him down on that with veto proof majorities, although he could have done a better job of it back in 2009 and perhaps have gotten there. And AFAICT there are no more black sites in places where we are not engaged in hostilities, or torture.
    But yes, yesterday’s beyond the pale is today’s new normal.
    in other news, google brings it with the Fred Korematsu doodle today (it’s his birthday). Well done.

  85. NV – LGF went reverse-crazy a while back, or so I’ve read (never been on the site). Don’t recall what prompted it.

  86. NV – LGF went reverse-crazy a while back, or so I’ve read (never been on the site). Don’t recall what prompted it.

  87. I also STM that Gitmo is still open primarily due to the (R) opposition of the Obama years.
    Unless he wanted to write a personal check to pay for shutting the place down, there wasn’t much more he could do than what he did do.
    The NSA stuff, I think he owns some responsibility for, but I just don’t think he envisioned Trump + Bannon.

  88. I also STM that Gitmo is still open primarily due to the (R) opposition of the Obama years.
    Unless he wanted to write a personal check to pay for shutting the place down, there wasn’t much more he could do than what he did do.
    The NSA stuff, I think he owns some responsibility for, but I just don’t think he envisioned Trump + Bannon.

  91. Sorry everyone, thought I’d read the whole thread, but apparently not. Still, no harm posting it again I guess – as it used to say at the bottom of telegrams in England: “Free repetition of doubtful words”.

  92. Sorry everyone, thought I’d read the whole thread, but apparently not. Still, no harm posting it again I guess – as it used to say at the bottom of telegrams in England: “Free repetition of doubtful words”.

  93. See #6 in Doc’s and GFTNC’s identical link:
    Rosneft
    Trump got a big taste of this deal. His people did too. And from the looks of the compliant Ryan and McConnell, so did they.
    They will kill whomever tries to plumb the depths of the coverup.
    Two words: Wilbur Ross. Right up his alley.
    Meanwhile, Clinton’s paltry emails ….
    …… while conservatives permit and enable the wholesale corruption of the entire U.S. Government.
    Talk about chaff.

  94. See #6 in Doc’s and GFTNC’s identical link:
    Rosneft
    Trump got a big taste of this deal. His people did too. And from the looks of the compliant Ryan and McConnell, so did they.
    They will kill whomever tries to plumb the depths of the coverup.
    Two words: Wilbur Ross. Right up his alley.
    Meanwhile, Clinton’s paltry emails ….
    …… while conservatives permit and enable the wholesale corruption of the entire U.S. Government.
    Talk about chaff.

  95. Thanks NV, and when (and if) you have time. I’d remind everyone that there is a open invitation to regulars (for various values of regularity) to post something. If you would like do that in order to make sure that you are hauled away with the rest of us, drop a line to the kitty.

  96. Thanks NV, and when (and if) you have time. I’d remind everyone that there is a open invitation to regulars (for various values of regularity) to post something. If you would like do that in order to make sure that you are hauled away with the rest of us, drop a line to the kitty.

  99. AFAICT there are no more black sites in places where we are not engaged in hostilities, or torture.
    After the last time, a lot of places where we had black sites are unlikely to let that happen again. Their domestic political fallout was way too great.

  100. AFAICT there are no more black sites in places where we are not engaged in hostilities, or torture.
    After the last time, a lot of places where we had black sites are unlikely to let that happen again. Their domestic political fallout was way too great.

  101. Tony P, excellent delineation of malediction versus threat. I was very bothered by the Doc’s decision myself, because it was clear to me what the Count was doing, and it was not a “rape threat”. However, happily the Count still gets to decide when and where he appears, and it is always to the benefit, not to mention delight, of his readers.

  102. Tony P, excellent delineation of malediction versus threat. I was very bothered by the Doc’s decision myself, because it was clear to me what the Count was doing, and it was not a “rape threat”. However, happily the Count still gets to decide when and where he appears, and it is always to the benefit, not to mention delight, of his readers.

  103. Jeebus:
    And here’s who he is: an extremely successful conservative provocateur who has a particularly nasty history on issues of immigration, race, and religious minorities. All signs suggest Bannon believes, deeply, that the United States needs to be made into a hub for a new kind of right-wing populism centering on white identity politics — and that this vision is the beating heart of Trump’s cruel new approach to immigration.
    Sessions’ former aide Stephen Miller makes an appearance too. Sessions’ confirmation vote is Tuesday morning.

  104. Jeebus:
    And here’s who he is: an extremely successful conservative provocateur who has a particularly nasty history on issues of immigration, race, and religious minorities. All signs suggest Bannon believes, deeply, that the United States needs to be made into a hub for a new kind of right-wing populism centering on white identity politics — and that this vision is the beating heart of Trump’s cruel new approach to immigration.
    Sessions’ former aide Stephen Miller makes an appearance too. Sessions’ confirmation vote is Tuesday morning.

  109. Korematsu is a worry, but a longer term one (though much nearer term than I ever would have thought). But it at least requires that we be at war.
    You want troublesome Supreme Court law? Look to why there is a ‘legitimate’ border station more than 60 miles north of the US border near San Diego.
    Those reduced Constitutional protections 100 miles from any border (including ALL OF THE COASTS!) rulings (Staring with US v. Martinez-Fuerte I think) have the potential to be dynamite in the hands of a Trump administration. See this old ACLU report and think about how it could be used for just a minute.

  110. Korematsu is a worry, but a longer term one (though much nearer term than I ever would have thought). But it at least requires that we be at war.
    You want troublesome Supreme Court law? Look to why there is a ‘legitimate’ border station more than 60 miles north of the US border near San Diego.
    Those reduced Constitutional protections 100 miles from any border (including ALL OF THE COASTS!) rulings (Staring with US v. Martinez-Fuerte I think) have the potential to be dynamite in the hands of a Trump administration. See this old ACLU report and think about how it could be used for just a minute.

  117. Oh great, the Koch network will save us from Trumpism.
    To paraphrase Lindsay Graham, would you rather be shot or poisoned?

  118. Oh great, the Koch network will save us from Trumpism.
    To paraphrase Lindsay Graham, would you rather be shot or poisoned?

  119. I see that I will now have to demote Paul Ryan to third most dangerous man in the U.S. government, behind Trump and Bannon. If Sessions is confirmed then you might fall to 4th Paul!

  120. I see that I will now have to demote Paul Ryan to third most dangerous man in the U.S. government, behind Trump and Bannon. If Sessions is confirmed then you might fall to 4th Paul!

  121. wj, Poland and Hungary will be happy to house new and improved black sites. The governments of both countries have made it a matter of principle to spit in the face of Europe as often as possible.
    If Trump extradites Gülen to Turkey, Erdogan may be open for the nasty business too (if his anger at Russia can be reduced a wee bit. He seems non too happy about The Donald’s man crush on Ras Putain).

  122. wj, Poland and Hungary will be happy to house new and improved black sites. The governments of both countries have made it a matter of principle to spit in the face of Europe as often as possible.
    If Trump extradites Gülen to Turkey, Erdogan may be open for the nasty business too (if his anger at Russia can be reduced a wee bit. He seems non too happy about The Donald’s man crush on Ras Putain).

  123. Wow, the WaPo went all out on the immigration ban in today’s soon to be recycled tree edition. Every story on the front page is about it, plus 9 full additional pages (not including coverage on the editorial pages).
    Well done.

  124. Wow, the WaPo went all out on the immigration ban in today’s soon to be recycled tree edition. Every story on the front page is about it, plus 9 full additional pages (not including coverage on the editorial pages).
    Well done.

  125. For those interested, the petition now has 1.5 million signatures out of a population of 65 million. On the news: signatures all coming from areas which voted overwhelmingly against Brexit. Surprise surprise. Meantime, thousands of people have closed Whitehall as they protest as close as they can get to Downing Street. On the news also: middle America which voted for Trump is solidly behind his actions so far. You can see what a problem it presents for responsible Republican lawmakers: what should they do, and how should they do it to avoid a civil war?

  126. For those interested, the petition now has 1.5 million signatures out of a population of 65 million. On the news: signatures all coming from areas which voted overwhelmingly against Brexit. Surprise surprise. Meantime, thousands of people have closed Whitehall as they protest as close as they can get to Downing Street. On the news also: middle America which voted for Trump is solidly behind his actions so far. You can see what a problem it presents for responsible Republican lawmakers: what should they do, and how should they do it to avoid a civil war?

  127. Heard on the radio today that May vowed the state visit would go forward citing long-term relations with the US. She may want to have a look at Trump’s approval ratings and the demographics of his support.

  128. Heard on the radio today that May vowed the state visit would go forward citing long-term relations with the US. She may want to have a look at Trump’s approval ratings and the demographics of his support.

  129. Oh great, the Koch network will save us from Trumpism.
    To paraphrase Lindsay Graham, would you rather be shot or poisoned?
    Neither. I’m not a fan of Libertarianism, but it is the polar opposite of authoritarianism, and much of the DT’s latest stuff–including the re-ordering of the NSC–is moving more and more in that direction. It will be interesting to see what the Repubs do about it. At least McCain has found his voice.
    I’m still thinking the shortest rope to climb is the 25th Amendment, Sec. 4.

  130. Oh great, the Koch network will save us from Trumpism.
    To paraphrase Lindsay Graham, would you rather be shot or poisoned?
    Neither. I’m not a fan of Libertarianism, but it is the polar opposite of authoritarianism, and much of the DT’s latest stuff–including the re-ordering of the NSC–is moving more and more in that direction. It will be interesting to see what the Repubs do about it. At least McCain has found his voice.
    I’m still thinking the shortest rope to climb is the 25th Amendment, Sec. 4.

  131. You need 2/3 of the House and 2/3 of Senate to agree to that McKinney (assuming Trump contests the determination), along with Pence and a majority of the principle officers of the executive departments.
    Impeachment only requires half the House and 2/3 of the Senate, but then they would be the “first mover,” I guess.

  132. You need 2/3 of the House and 2/3 of Senate to agree to that McKinney (assuming Trump contests the determination), along with Pence and a majority of the principle officers of the executive departments.
    Impeachment only requires half the House and 2/3 of the Senate, but then they would be the “first mover,” I guess.

  133. You need 2/3 of the House and 2/3 of Senate to agree to that McKinney (assuming Trump contests the determination), along with Pence and a majority of the principle officers of the executive departments.
    Yep, but if you have Pence and a majority of the cabinet saying the DT can’t carry out the duties of the office, *that* is much easier to address–all congress has to do is agree–than coming up with crimes and misdemeanors and having a trial. More to the point, if DT becomes President-By-Decree Donald “Breitbart” Trump, getting a consensus that he has to go should be do-able.

  134. You need 2/3 of the House and 2/3 of Senate to agree to that McKinney (assuming Trump contests the determination), along with Pence and a majority of the principle officers of the executive departments.
    Yep, but if you have Pence and a majority of the cabinet saying the DT can’t carry out the duties of the office, *that* is much easier to address–all congress has to do is agree–than coming up with crimes and misdemeanors and having a trial. More to the point, if DT becomes President-By-Decree Donald “Breitbart” Trump, getting a consensus that he has to go should be do-able.

  135. True, didn’t think about the process in the House/Senate for impeachment, although they could short-circuit if they wanted to ISTM.
    It’s 10 days in!

  136. True, didn’t think about the process in the House/Senate for impeachment, although they could short-circuit if they wanted to ISTM.
    It’s 10 days in!

  137. Heard on the radio today that May vowed the state visit would go forward citing long-term relations with the US. She may want to have a look at Trump’s approval ratings and the demographics of his support.
    I doubt she’ll cancel the visit. The Queen has had to receive authoritarian dictators before (e.g. Ceaușescu). She’s a tough old bird (the Queen, that is). But when he visits, it is bound to be pretty embarrassing – they’ll try to close what roads they can citing traffic concerns, but the rest will be lined with protesters, holding banners or doing what some of the WW2 survivors did when Hirohito drove by in the carriage, turning their backs as he passed.

  138. Heard on the radio today that May vowed the state visit would go forward citing long-term relations with the US. She may want to have a look at Trump’s approval ratings and the demographics of his support.
    I doubt she’ll cancel the visit. The Queen has had to receive authoritarian dictators before (e.g. Ceaușescu). She’s a tough old bird (the Queen, that is). But when he visits, it is bound to be pretty embarrassing – they’ll try to close what roads they can citing traffic concerns, but the rest will be lined with protesters, holding banners or doing what some of the WW2 survivors did when Hirohito drove by in the carriage, turning their backs as he passed.

  139. doing what some of the WW2 survivors did when Hirohito drove by in the carriage, turning their backs as he passed.
    He’s gonna send them such a tweet!!
    McK, two weeks ago I would have said the 25th A stuff was nutty. Today, I wouldn’t.
    I have absolutely no idea where this is all going to land.

  140. doing what some of the WW2 survivors did when Hirohito drove by in the carriage, turning their backs as he passed.
    He’s gonna send them such a tweet!!
    McK, two weeks ago I would have said the 25th A stuff was nutty. Today, I wouldn’t.
    I have absolutely no idea where this is all going to land.

  143. Meanwhile, in response to a “Dissent Memo” (on the ban and its likely effect of increasing terrorist threats) sent by various diplomats (a channel available to them since the Vietnam War for registering views different from the Administration’s) Spicer said “They should either get with the program or get out.” So that’s even more State Dept people going soon. The project of making sure that there’s nobody who knows anything in any position of power or influence proceeeds nicely…

  144. Meanwhile, in response to a “Dissent Memo” (on the ban and its likely effect of increasing terrorist threats) sent by various diplomats (a channel available to them since the Vietnam War for registering views different from the Administration’s) Spicer said “They should either get with the program or get out.” So that’s even more State Dept people going soon. The project of making sure that there’s nobody who knows anything in any position of power or influence proceeeds nicely…

  145. GftNC – and that circles us back to the title of the post, Trump/Bannon want yes men in the rest of the executive branch, that will do whatever Trump/Bannon tell them to do and, as a bonus, not know any better.

  146. GftNC – and that circles us back to the title of the post, Trump/Bannon want yes men in the rest of the executive branch, that will do whatever Trump/Bannon tell them to do and, as a bonus, not know any better.

  147. Very true Ugh.
    By the way, I don’t think we’ve heard from Marty for a while. How’s he doing, Marty? Done anything yet worthy of your condemnation? How’s he doing in the dictator stakes versus Obama?

  148. Very true Ugh.
    By the way, I don’t think we’ve heard from Marty for a while. How’s he doing, Marty? Done anything yet worthy of your condemnation? How’s he doing in the dictator stakes versus Obama?

  153. So that’s even more State Dept people going soon. The project of making sure that there’s nobody who knows anything in any position of power or influence proceeeds nicely…
    I’m wondering how Rex Tillerson is taking this. I’m no fan, but I don’t think the man is a fool, and I’m sure he didn’t sign on to endorse destructive idiocy, or head a department that is losing career civil servants. Could he be having second thoughts?

  154. So that’s even more State Dept people going soon. The project of making sure that there’s nobody who knows anything in any position of power or influence proceeeds nicely…
    I’m wondering how Rex Tillerson is taking this. I’m no fan, but I don’t think the man is a fool, and I’m sure he didn’t sign on to endorse destructive idiocy, or head a department that is losing career civil servants. Could he be having second thoughts?

  155. In for a penny, in for a pound, snarkwise:
    McKinney, do your 02.42 and 02.58 posts mean that you now think we are not being a bunch of hysterical Chicken Lickens, or however you put it in a post not many days ago? I know you mentioned the 25th Amendment then, but it seemed more theoretical to you at the time.

  156. In for a penny, in for a pound, snarkwise:
    McKinney, do your 02.42 and 02.58 posts mean that you now think we are not being a bunch of hysterical Chicken Lickens, or however you put it in a post not many days ago? I know you mentioned the 25th Amendment then, but it seemed more theoretical to you at the time.

  157. And this is the kind of thing that might sound good while having serious discussion at the bar after too many drinks, but I have no idea how it will be implemented in practice – nor do any of the affected portions of the Executive Branch.
    It’s government by slogan.

  158. And this is the kind of thing that might sound good while having serious discussion at the bar after too many drinks, but I have no idea how it will be implemented in practice – nor do any of the affected portions of the Executive Branch.
    It’s government by slogan.

  159. Not being able to carry out his duties– does that mean simple incompetence? Is there any kind of precedent? Not with the President, obviously, but I was wondering if there might be some similar provision with state constitution and if so was it ever invoked?

  160. Not being able to carry out his duties– does that mean simple incompetence? Is there any kind of precedent? Not with the President, obviously, but I was wondering if there might be some similar provision with state constitution and if so was it ever invoked?

  163. McKinney, do your 02.42 and 02.58 posts mean that you now think we are not being a bunch of hysterical Chicken Lickens, or however you put it in a post not many days ago? I know you mentioned the 25th Amendment then, but it seemed more theoretical to you at the time.
    I’m not sure what post you’re referring to. I don’t recall using a phrase similar to “hysterical Chicken Lickens” (I would have said “Chicken Little”, for one thing), because that approach normally doesn’t produce thoughtful responses. This isn’t an open thread and I don’t have the time to defend my thoughts about how the various sets and subsets across the spectrum have responded to DT.
    That said, there is a lot of hyperbole. There is a lot of overstating the case and a lot of reading the worst into things to make a partisan, or anti-Trump point. That said, to repeat the old phrase, just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.
    I’m generally in favor of much stricter immigration rules and practices. I don’t support publicly humiliating the President of Mexico, the population of Mexico or the many, many Americans who descend from Mexican citizens and who remain culturally attached to Mexico. To make it a bit plainer, I think he’s been a world class asshole in handling a problem I’d like to see handled much more effectively. He is not helping, in the long run, the case for border enforcement.
    Putin is a thug and always has been. Few on the left ever said so until recently. The reset was a product of leftwing, post cold war thinking and was incredibly naive (as was GWB’s looking into Putin’s eyes and seeing someone who wasn’t there). He ran the f’ing KGB for crying out loud. Obama was an idiot when he told the Russians he’d be a lot more flexible on missiles in Poland after he was re-elected and DT is an idiot now. Bipartisan idiocy. The Soviets and the Russians were and always will be hyper nationalist, quasi-barbarian, expansionist dicks. That’s just the way they roll. DT has a lot of exposure sucking up to Putin et al.
    The limits on immigration from the 7 predominantly Muslim countries has points I agree with and points I disagree with. I have huge issues with the process and the rollout, process including the lack of prior consultations with a host of key players within the gov’t. Attempting to, by decree, impair rights of permanent residents is beyond the pale. Inexcusable.
    I’m no fan of regulation. I think college kids don’t need guidance from DC to get to third base. I don’t think every school should be required to let young boys use the girls bathroom just because the young boys claim to actually be girls. I’ve dealt with and am dealing with the Feds and I find them, more often than not, to be completely unreasonable, unbelievably arrogant and completely disinterested in any conversation except their own. And, on more than one occasion, dishonest. From the EEOC the DOL to the IRS, I’ve seen them lie or get others to lie to advance their ends. So, not a fan, as I think I’ve made clear before.
    I’ve also had dealings–customs officials for example–of common sense and proportion. I find the FBI to be much easier to deal with than DOJ lawyers. Just a couple of examples.
    So, on its face, I get the sense underlying DT’s decree on regulations. I also get that it sounds better–to paraphrase Ugh, like something someone like me would say after a couple of drinks–as a talking point than as actual policy.
    I’m hitting high points here, not explicating in detail, so no need to call to my attention everything I’ve overlooked. I’m well aware that the forgoing is very cursory.
    *If* what we are seeing is the genesis of a coterie of far right wing theorist (keeping this neutral for the moment) cronies forming the de facto cabinet and controlling not only the narrative but policy, I see the middle and some portion of the right agreeing that they have to go. I’m very disturbed about the topic of Sebastian’s post.
    I will also say, just as a thought, that if DT and his crowd keep the market roiling week in and week out, the investor class is going to be pissed. Very pissed. And when they are pissed, a lot of people with (R) behind their names get pissed too.
    Pissed as in angry, not intoxicated.

  164. McKinney, do your 02.42 and 02.58 posts mean that you now think we are not being a bunch of hysterical Chicken Lickens, or however you put it in a post not many days ago? I know you mentioned the 25th Amendment then, but it seemed more theoretical to you at the time.
    I’m not sure what post you’re referring to. I don’t recall using a phrase similar to “hysterical Chicken Lickens” (I would have said “Chicken Little”, for one thing), because that approach normally doesn’t produce thoughtful responses. This isn’t an open thread and I don’t have the time to defend my thoughts about how the various sets and subsets across the spectrum have responded to DT.
    That said, there is a lot of hyperbole. There is a lot of overstating the case and a lot of reading the worst into things to make a partisan, or anti-Trump point. That said, to repeat the old phrase, just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.
    I’m generally in favor of much stricter immigration rules and practices. I don’t support publicly humiliating the President of Mexico, the population of Mexico or the many, many Americans who descend from Mexican citizens and who remain culturally attached to Mexico. To make it a bit plainer, I think he’s been a world class asshole in handling a problem I’d like to see handled much more effectively. He is not helping, in the long run, the case for border enforcement.
    Putin is a thug and always has been. Few on the left ever said so until recently. The reset was a product of leftwing, post cold war thinking and was incredibly naive (as was GWB’s looking into Putin’s eyes and seeing someone who wasn’t there). He ran the f’ing KGB for crying out loud. Obama was an idiot when he told the Russians he’d be a lot more flexible on missiles in Poland after he was re-elected and DT is an idiot now. Bipartisan idiocy. The Soviets and the Russians were and always will be hyper nationalist, quasi-barbarian, expansionist dicks. That’s just the way they roll. DT has a lot of exposure sucking up to Putin et al.
    The limits on immigration from the 7 predominantly Muslim countries has points I agree with and points I disagree with. I have huge issues with the process and the rollout, process including the lack of prior consultations with a host of key players within the gov’t. Attempting to, by decree, impair rights of permanent residents is beyond the pale. Inexcusable.
    I’m no fan of regulation. I think college kids don’t need guidance from DC to get to third base. I don’t think every school should be required to let young boys use the girls bathroom just because the young boys claim to actually be girls. I’ve dealt with and am dealing with the Feds and I find them, more often than not, to be completely unreasonable, unbelievably arrogant and completely disinterested in any conversation except their own. And, on more than one occasion, dishonest. From the EEOC the DOL to the IRS, I’ve seen them lie or get others to lie to advance their ends. So, not a fan, as I think I’ve made clear before.
    I’ve also had dealings–customs officials for example–of common sense and proportion. I find the FBI to be much easier to deal with than DOJ lawyers. Just a couple of examples.
    So, on its face, I get the sense underlying DT’s decree on regulations. I also get that it sounds better–to paraphrase Ugh, like something someone like me would say after a couple of drinks–as a talking point than as actual policy.
    I’m hitting high points here, not explicating in detail, so no need to call to my attention everything I’ve overlooked. I’m well aware that the forgoing is very cursory.
    *If* what we are seeing is the genesis of a coterie of far right wing theorist (keeping this neutral for the moment) cronies forming the de facto cabinet and controlling not only the narrative but policy, I see the middle and some portion of the right agreeing that they have to go. I’m very disturbed about the topic of Sebastian’s post.
    I will also say, just as a thought, that if DT and his crowd keep the market roiling week in and week out, the investor class is going to be pissed. Very pissed. And when they are pissed, a lot of people with (R) behind their names get pissed too.
    Pissed as in angry, not intoxicated.

  165. Not being able to carry out his duties– does that mean simple incompetence? Is there any kind of precedent? Not with the President, obviously, but I was wondering if there might be some similar provision with state constitution and if so was it ever invoked?
    The amendment was passed in 1967. I always assumed itwas to have a lawful way of avoiding a Dr. Strangelove scenario. There is no objective standard for removal. It’s just the say-so of the VP and a majority of the cabinet. You won’t see such a finding unless there is clear public support OR the DT tries to pop a nuke without clear and convincing justification and Pence agrees that he has to intervene.

  166. Not being able to carry out his duties– does that mean simple incompetence? Is there any kind of precedent? Not with the President, obviously, but I was wondering if there might be some similar provision with state constitution and if so was it ever invoked?
    The amendment was passed in 1967. I always assumed itwas to have a lawful way of avoiding a Dr. Strangelove scenario. There is no objective standard for removal. It’s just the say-so of the VP and a majority of the cabinet. You won’t see such a finding unless there is clear public support OR the DT tries to pop a nuke without clear and convincing justification and Pence agrees that he has to intervene.

  167. The Chicken Licken thing was just my, purposely English, exaggerated version of something you said about the way most of us *may* have been overreacting about Trump, and what he might have been going to do. You were judicious, and I think even in the same post might have pointed us to the 25th Amendment, if the worst came to the worst. Your general attitude towards immigration and regulations, I believe, are reasonably well-known (or reasonably surmised) here. But thanks for letting us know which developments so far are unacceptable to you. I wish we had a way of monitoring the “unacceptability” factor with other rightwingers, because presumably a tipping point has to be reached before most of the Rs in the House and the Senate will be prepared to stand up against it.

  168. The Chicken Licken thing was just my, purposely English, exaggerated version of something you said about the way most of us *may* have been overreacting about Trump, and what he might have been going to do. You were judicious, and I think even in the same post might have pointed us to the 25th Amendment, if the worst came to the worst. Your general attitude towards immigration and regulations, I believe, are reasonably well-known (or reasonably surmised) here. But thanks for letting us know which developments so far are unacceptable to you. I wish we had a way of monitoring the “unacceptability” factor with other rightwingers, because presumably a tipping point has to be reached before most of the Rs in the House and the Senate will be prepared to stand up against it.

  169. I wish we had a way of monitoring the “unacceptability” factor with other rightwingers
    Oh, we do. We call it “the polls”. Or, the “wind” as in which way does it blow?

  170. I wish we had a way of monitoring the “unacceptability” factor with other rightwingers
    Oh, we do. We call it “the polls”. Or, the “wind” as in which way does it blow?

  171. Pissed as in angry, not intoxicated.
    Or both, perhaps. 🙂
    Bannon doesn’t talk all that much in public, so he’s not that well known. He seems to want to break things – whatever he can get away with – and to maximize the power he can either wield himself or have access to via Trump. Or, whoever.
    I have no idea what he wants to do with it. I.e., what goal he has in mind, if any. He generally describes himself as an “economic nationalist” but I can think of 100 ways of being an economic nationalist without breaking everything.
    He’s a scary dude, precisely because I don’t think anybody really knows WTF he wants.
    Trump is, really, just a flaming narcissistic ass. He’s not unintelligent, and in some ways he’s pretty freaking sharp. I think his basic insight that there were a hell of a lot of people who felt unrepresented by both parties was apt. But he’s such a freaking bundle of issues that every damned thing he touches is going to be a clusterf—. And folks around him are going to exploit that, most notably Bannon.
    Priebus is probably going to be a good boy and do what he’s told, Kushner is going to ride the wave and make himself unbelievably freaking rich.
    Bannon is going to push whatever the hell his agenda is like a freaking bulldozer, and Trump is going to basically be an out of control mess.
    McK, I know you find some of the things folks say here to be wild leftist rantings, and I don’t really mind that. Sometimes there’s something to that perception.
    But to be perfectly frank, I’m just waiting to see if Bannon is really a fucking Nazi or not. It really is not out of the question, or even that unlikely. At some point, he’s going to have to show his hand.
    If he is, maybe I’ll get myself a couple of big dogs and some guns. Either that, or reconcile myself to some kind of non-violent resistance, and assume that I’m going to get f****ed up one way or the other.
    Off we go!

  172. Pissed as in angry, not intoxicated.
    Or both, perhaps. 🙂
    Bannon doesn’t talk all that much in public, so he’s not that well known. He seems to want to break things – whatever he can get away with – and to maximize the power he can either wield himself or have access to via Trump. Or, whoever.
    I have no idea what he wants to do with it. I.e., what goal he has in mind, if any. He generally describes himself as an “economic nationalist” but I can think of 100 ways of being an economic nationalist without breaking everything.
    He’s a scary dude, precisely because I don’t think anybody really knows WTF he wants.
    Trump is, really, just a flaming narcissistic ass. He’s not unintelligent, and in some ways he’s pretty freaking sharp. I think his basic insight that there were a hell of a lot of people who felt unrepresented by both parties was apt. But he’s such a freaking bundle of issues that every damned thing he touches is going to be a clusterf—. And folks around him are going to exploit that, most notably Bannon.
    Priebus is probably going to be a good boy and do what he’s told, Kushner is going to ride the wave and make himself unbelievably freaking rich.
    Bannon is going to push whatever the hell his agenda is like a freaking bulldozer, and Trump is going to basically be an out of control mess.
    McK, I know you find some of the things folks say here to be wild leftist rantings, and I don’t really mind that. Sometimes there’s something to that perception.
    But to be perfectly frank, I’m just waiting to see if Bannon is really a fucking Nazi or not. It really is not out of the question, or even that unlikely. At some point, he’s going to have to show his hand.
    If he is, maybe I’ll get myself a couple of big dogs and some guns. Either that, or reconcile myself to some kind of non-violent resistance, and assume that I’m going to get f****ed up one way or the other.
    Off we go!

  173. Well, Bannon says he is “a Leninist” and that he wants to destroy the state. Perhaps we should do what too many failed to do with Trump, and take him at his word. Which is to say, literally.

  174. Well, Bannon says he is “a Leninist” and that he wants to destroy the state. Perhaps we should do what too many failed to do with Trump, and take him at his word. Which is to say, literally.

  175. This is a good time to start a philosophical question: Is it better for good people to stay in position and try to mitigate, or should they resign, and leave the positions open for sycophants?
    The Chairman, Joint Chiefs, for example. Should he quit, or do his best?

  176. This is a good time to start a philosophical question: Is it better for good people to stay in position and try to mitigate, or should they resign, and leave the positions open for sycophants?
    The Chairman, Joint Chiefs, for example. Should he quit, or do his best?

  177. For the people at the upper levels, stay and try to mitigate, and at least potentially be in a position to catch wind of nefarious plans. Says my naive paranoia.

  178. For the people at the upper levels, stay and try to mitigate, and at least potentially be in a position to catch wind of nefarious plans. Says my naive paranoia.

  181. Not really a surprise, given Trump’s usual (reflexive) response when someone contradicts or tries to thwart him. On anything.
    I expect the Acting AG was well aware of the probable reaction. But she chose to do the right thing. The interesting question is how many levels of the Justice Department Trump will find himself having to go thru before he finds someone who will agree to defend the indefensible.

  182. Not really a surprise, given Trump’s usual (reflexive) response when someone contradicts or tries to thwart him. On anything.
    I expect the Acting AG was well aware of the probable reaction. But she chose to do the right thing. The interesting question is how many levels of the Justice Department Trump will find himself having to go thru before he finds someone who will agree to defend the indefensible.

  185. liberal japonicus | January 30, 2017 at 03:32 AM
    “I’ve always appreciated your insight (and your J-pop knowledge) so welcome, but please try to avoid turning your fire out anyone here. thx”
    Now that the thread has gone aways I guess I can explain why I am not coming back. the above was a setup.
    Although I read two non-fiction books about Japan a month, and fiction by Japanese authors I don’t count (currently at over 150 read, current reading is on Japanese Romantic School pre-war poets); and watch 5-10 Japanese movies a month (all of Ozu, Naruse, Mizoguchi,Oshima, Koreeda);and watch anime every night; and have talked about Japanese prints and Japanese feudalism on this site; and although liberal japonicus knows this very well and knows I know she knows it.
    She tells the group (“j-pop”) that my main interest as an old man is in Japanese adolescent girl groups, pretends innocence, and sets me up so if I get at all insulted or angry it’s my fault.
    I don’t need that shit.

  186. liberal japonicus | January 30, 2017 at 03:32 AM
    “I’ve always appreciated your insight (and your J-pop knowledge) so welcome, but please try to avoid turning your fire out anyone here. thx”
    Now that the thread has gone aways I guess I can explain why I am not coming back. the above was a setup.
    Although I read two non-fiction books about Japan a month, and fiction by Japanese authors I don’t count (currently at over 150 read, current reading is on Japanese Romantic School pre-war poets); and watch 5-10 Japanese movies a month (all of Ozu, Naruse, Mizoguchi,Oshima, Koreeda);and watch anime every night; and have talked about Japanese prints and Japanese feudalism on this site; and although liberal japonicus knows this very well and knows I know she knows it.
    She tells the group (“j-pop”) that my main interest as an old man is in Japanese adolescent girl groups, pretends innocence, and sets me up so if I get at all insulted or angry it’s my fault.
    I don’t need that shit.

  187. fwiw, LJ is a guy.
    The Chairman, Joint Chiefs, for example. Should he quit, or do his best?
    i could be wrong, but i think it will take a hell of a lot more than trump and bannon to get mattis to stand down.

  188. fwiw, LJ is a guy.
    The Chairman, Joint Chiefs, for example. Should he quit, or do his best?
    i could be wrong, but i think it will take a hell of a lot more than trump and bannon to get mattis to stand down.

  197. “I will also say, just as a thought, that if DT and his crowd keep the market roiling week in and week out, the investor class is going to be pissed. Very pissed. And when they are pissed, a lot of people with (R) behind their names get pissed too. ”
    This is probably not true. The investor class has the ability to take advantage of roiling markets, in fact roiling markets are better for them. They make money on the changes, either way. Who eventually gets screwed in roiling markets are the middle class investors. Invested in your popular stocks and funds that at best eventually go up some but almost always after the little guys have sold off and the investor class get to skim another 5% off their investments as they sell to the little on the back way up. That single phenomenon has accounted for the greatest transfer of wealth from the middle class to the .1% over the last 50 years. Little guys lose(or break even), big guys win, rinse and repeat.

  198. “I will also say, just as a thought, that if DT and his crowd keep the market roiling week in and week out, the investor class is going to be pissed. Very pissed. And when they are pissed, a lot of people with (R) behind their names get pissed too. ”
    This is probably not true. The investor class has the ability to take advantage of roiling markets, in fact roiling markets are better for them. They make money on the changes, either way. Who eventually gets screwed in roiling markets are the middle class investors. Invested in your popular stocks and funds that at best eventually go up some but almost always after the little guys have sold off and the investor class get to skim another 5% off their investments as they sell to the little on the back way up. That single phenomenon has accounted for the greatest transfer of wealth from the middle class to the .1% over the last 50 years. Little guys lose(or break even), big guys win, rinse and repeat.

  199. Watch the chaff strategy tomorrow, Supreme announcement early to replace all other concerns. I’m betting on the farthest right, least qualified candidate. (And Jeff Sessions gets confirmed in part because the Acting AG pressed the issue), and who will even mention it with “whats his name” being nominated for the court.

  200. Watch the chaff strategy tomorrow, Supreme announcement early to replace all other concerns. I’m betting on the farthest right, least qualified candidate. (And Jeff Sessions gets confirmed in part because the Acting AG pressed the issue), and who will even mention it with “whats his name” being nominated for the court.

  201. That single phenomenon has accounted for the greatest transfer of wealth from the middle class to the .1% over the last 50 years.
    A claim that, absent any supporting evidence, is manifestly untrue.
    Little guys lose(or break even), big guys win, rinse and repeat.
    As far as our tax and monetary policies generally go, this I would agree with.
    Watch the chaff strategy tomorrow

    I understand this announcement has been put off until Thursday?

  202. That single phenomenon has accounted for the greatest transfer of wealth from the middle class to the .1% over the last 50 years.
    A claim that, absent any supporting evidence, is manifestly untrue.
    Little guys lose(or break even), big guys win, rinse and repeat.
    As far as our tax and monetary policies generally go, this I would agree with.
    Watch the chaff strategy tomorrow

    I understand this announcement has been put off until Thursday?

  203. Marty’s correct, and I don’t have a cite for it, but I’ve read in recent days how Wall Street and hedge fund traders, who live to bleed everyone dry and call it making a liquid market, are salivating over the prospects of trump chaos causing tidal waves of volatility so they can trade against every deplorable’s dwindling 401K, IRA, and cash brokerage accounts in the country and the world.
    Like maggots, they have a purpose in the ecosystem of fuck you capitalism, but the corpse is too otherwise preoccupied to wonder what it is.
    That said, I think what we’ve just witnessed in Marty’s two recent comments is a triple twist kip pivot off the Fence into a shot glass of lukewarm capitulation broth.
    Good thing, too, because the fence is being swiftly town down and replaced by an insurmountable wall with searchlights, gun turrets, and snipers.
    Sitters will be shot.

  204. Marty’s correct, and I don’t have a cite for it, but I’ve read in recent days how Wall Street and hedge fund traders, who live to bleed everyone dry and call it making a liquid market, are salivating over the prospects of trump chaos causing tidal waves of volatility so they can trade against every deplorable’s dwindling 401K, IRA, and cash brokerage accounts in the country and the world.
    Like maggots, they have a purpose in the ecosystem of fuck you capitalism, but the corpse is too otherwise preoccupied to wonder what it is.
    That said, I think what we’ve just witnessed in Marty’s two recent comments is a triple twist kip pivot off the Fence into a shot glass of lukewarm capitulation broth.
    Good thing, too, because the fence is being swiftly town down and replaced by an insurmountable wall with searchlights, gun turrets, and snipers.
    Sitters will be shot.

  205. Dr. Science,
    re: can I get through
    I burnt bridges today when I told him he was weak for being afraid of refugee children, and sent him pictures of kids we played with in Iraq, and said he supported banning these kids.
    He made it clear we are no longer buds.
    He is someone I like and believe will see reality soon. The friendship is probably done.

  206. Dr. Science,
    re: can I get through
    I burnt bridges today when I told him he was weak for being afraid of refugee children, and sent him pictures of kids we played with in Iraq, and said he supported banning these kids.
    He made it clear we are no longer buds.
    He is someone I like and believe will see reality soon. The friendship is probably done.

  207. He’s a scary dude, precisely because I don’t think anybody really knows WTF he wants.
    He sure is. Since this is the internet, I feel compelled to offer my take.
    He wants to return to the Gilded Age, an age when the economically powerful spread tales of Horatio Alger bootstrapping his way to wealth by marrying the boss’s daughter, and hid behind high tariff walls, an age when gold ruled and debtors were crushed, a time when freely associating to form a union was considered a criminal activity, an age of stark racial oppression, of Exclusion Acts. Now consider this world ruled by the Know Nothings.
    This is Bannon’s dystopian vision.
    It must be stopped dead in its tracks.

  208. He’s a scary dude, precisely because I don’t think anybody really knows WTF he wants.
    He sure is. Since this is the internet, I feel compelled to offer my take.
    He wants to return to the Gilded Age, an age when the economically powerful spread tales of Horatio Alger bootstrapping his way to wealth by marrying the boss’s daughter, and hid behind high tariff walls, an age when gold ruled and debtors were crushed, a time when freely associating to form a union was considered a criminal activity, an age of stark racial oppression, of Exclusion Acts. Now consider this world ruled by the Know Nothings.
    This is Bannon’s dystopian vision.
    It must be stopped dead in its tracks.

  209. “dead” is the operative word.
    jrudkis:
    Your comment reminds me of correspondence between Union and Confederate friends, cousins, and brothers during the War Between the States, those labradors of hypocrisy.
    Lamentation one day, and something very different bugled the next.

  210. “dead” is the operative word.
    jrudkis:
    Your comment reminds me of correspondence between Union and Confederate friends, cousins, and brothers during the War Between the States, those labradors of hypocrisy.
    Lamentation one day, and something very different bugled the next.

  211. …are salivating over the prospects…
    Rest assured, when the public makes up its collective mind to madly buy or madly sell, it will be the wrong decision. Think tech bubble (I was broke at the time, and thankfully did not have the opportunity to buy stocks at the top) and the great financial crash of ’08 (I held on and sold nothing, probably due to the panic of deer in the headlights indecision).
    At the age of 68, I’m still 100% long stocks (too lazy to call the broker), but starting to get weak in the knees.
    Maybe it’s time to write deep in the money naked call options.

  212. …are salivating over the prospects…
    Rest assured, when the public makes up its collective mind to madly buy or madly sell, it will be the wrong decision. Think tech bubble (I was broke at the time, and thankfully did not have the opportunity to buy stocks at the top) and the great financial crash of ’08 (I held on and sold nothing, probably due to the panic of deer in the headlights indecision).
    At the age of 68, I’m still 100% long stocks (too lazy to call the broker), but starting to get weak in the knees.
    Maybe it’s time to write deep in the money naked call options.

  215. Hey, I got Count-ed!
    Yes, I very much believe that in order to have society, I think that people we know who have good hearts but are acting from alternative facts need to be given those facts.
    It sucks that being a grownup is hard. But if you are a grownup, do what you can, and stop complaining about the fact it is hard. Where is Jesugislac? She could help on this.

  216. Hey, I got Count-ed!
    Yes, I very much believe that in order to have society, I think that people we know who have good hearts but are acting from alternative facts need to be given those facts.
    It sucks that being a grownup is hard. But if you are a grownup, do what you can, and stop complaining about the fact it is hard. Where is Jesugislac? She could help on this.

  221. Bob McManus, no insult whatsoever was intended, I’ve always enjoyed how you leavened your observations from time to time with things about current Japanese culture, which over here in Japan (where I am), J-pop is a term that is employed without approbation. I can see where you might have thought that it was a trap, but it was not, I genuinely appreciate your take on things. I’ve lived here for more than 25 years this time, and I feel that there are manga and anime that are incredibly insightful into the human condition. While I’m not a particular fan of most Japanese pop music, the way that they have been able to monetize their product and mix foreign influences is really astonishing to me.
    So again, apologies if you thought I was setting you up for some sort of ambush. And I am a guy.

  222. Bob McManus, no insult whatsoever was intended, I’ve always enjoyed how you leavened your observations from time to time with things about current Japanese culture, which over here in Japan (where I am), J-pop is a term that is employed without approbation. I can see where you might have thought that it was a trap, but it was not, I genuinely appreciate your take on things. I’ve lived here for more than 25 years this time, and I feel that there are manga and anime that are incredibly insightful into the human condition. While I’m not a particular fan of most Japanese pop music, the way that they have been able to monetize their product and mix foreign influences is really astonishing to me.
    So again, apologies if you thought I was setting you up for some sort of ambush. And I am a guy.

  223. David Frum’s article in the Atlantic strikes me as a pretty accurate diagnosis of what we’re facing:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/03/how-to-build-an-autocracy/513872/
    Many of the worst and most subversive things Trump will do will be highly popular. Voters liked the threats and incentives that kept Carrier manufacturing jobs in Indiana. Since 1789, the wisest American leaders have invested great ingenuity in creating institutions to protect the electorate from its momentary impulses toward arbitrary action: the courts, the professional officer corps of the armed forces, the civil service, the Federal Reserve—and undergirding it all, the guarantees of the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights. More than any president in U.S. history since at least the time of Andrew Jackson, Donald Trump seeks to subvert those institutions….

  224. David Frum’s article in the Atlantic strikes me as a pretty accurate diagnosis of what we’re facing:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/03/how-to-build-an-autocracy/513872/
    Many of the worst and most subversive things Trump will do will be highly popular. Voters liked the threats and incentives that kept Carrier manufacturing jobs in Indiana. Since 1789, the wisest American leaders have invested great ingenuity in creating institutions to protect the electorate from its momentary impulses toward arbitrary action: the courts, the professional officer corps of the armed forces, the civil service, the Federal Reserve—and undergirding it all, the guarantees of the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights. More than any president in U.S. history since at least the time of Andrew Jackson, Donald Trump seeks to subvert those institutions….

  229. Shane: I think we’re still in the early days of “things Trump didn’t realize”.
    I, for one, hope that the initial burst deregulation frees up fast-food chains to make their offerings more delicious yet even less healthy, and that Trump takes full advantage.
    “Help us, Col. Sanders, you’re our only hope.”

  230. Shane: I think we’re still in the early days of “things Trump didn’t realize”.
    I, for one, hope that the initial burst deregulation frees up fast-food chains to make their offerings more delicious yet even less healthy, and that Trump takes full advantage.
    “Help us, Col. Sanders, you’re our only hope.”

  231. jrudkis, if I’m understanding your 1:04 am properly, I was merely pointing out that we are living in a time once again in America when brother with the facts goes against brother with alternative facts and vice versa, and where that might lead.
    By all means, educate away.
    I have a couple of friends in my personal life … not in Countme’s online ecosystem … at the moment who have such FOX and Brietbart-fed addlepated alternative points of view, which I’m just now hearing about after years of acquaintance, that I now steer our conversations completely away from politics.
    Just so, but more dangerously, as alluded to in my 12:33am, I believe we are going to reach a flash point wherein the facts presented by the U.S. Secret Service are going to clash physically with the alternative facts presented by trump’s private security detail.
    Anyway, yes please, where is Jesurgislac?

  232. jrudkis, if I’m understanding your 1:04 am properly, I was merely pointing out that we are living in a time once again in America when brother with the facts goes against brother with alternative facts and vice versa, and where that might lead.
    By all means, educate away.
    I have a couple of friends in my personal life … not in Countme’s online ecosystem … at the moment who have such FOX and Brietbart-fed addlepated alternative points of view, which I’m just now hearing about after years of acquaintance, that I now steer our conversations completely away from politics.
    Just so, but more dangerously, as alluded to in my 12:33am, I believe we are going to reach a flash point wherein the facts presented by the U.S. Secret Service are going to clash physically with the alternative facts presented by trump’s private security detail.
    Anyway, yes please, where is Jesurgislac?

  237. There is a picture on my twitter feed of a six year old girl in handcuffs (along with her parents), cuffs placed there by CBP officers.

  238. There is a picture on my twitter feed of a six year old girl in handcuffs (along with her parents), cuffs placed there by CBP officers.

  239. Snarki, (and Russell), hope all you like, but know that Warren Buffett is a McDonalds addict and shows no signs of going kablooey at 86.
    That’s a good thing, in his case.
    Unfortunately, I think trump is going to outlive most patrons of the Vitamin Cottage and be one of those long-lived dictators a la Gabriel Garcia Marquez, unless he runs into someone who has the guts to use one of those bunker-busting bombs on him and his entourage and their golden commodes.
    I also believe there will be a several-year lag between the time he croaks and the moment we find out about it, and that will be the same moment we find out what out who exactly that gigantic and lavish, pyramid-shaped Mausoleum was intended for that has been under construction for years on the National Mall in Washington DC, the FDR, Vietnam Veteran, Lincoln, and MLK monuments having been razed to make room for it.
    The Washington Monument, by comparison, will serve as a tiny exclamation point alongside.
    Bannon will lie in permanent state, disheveled and waxen, in the roomy entry alcove.

  240. Snarki, (and Russell), hope all you like, but know that Warren Buffett is a McDonalds addict and shows no signs of going kablooey at 86.
    That’s a good thing, in his case.
    Unfortunately, I think trump is going to outlive most patrons of the Vitamin Cottage and be one of those long-lived dictators a la Gabriel Garcia Marquez, unless he runs into someone who has the guts to use one of those bunker-busting bombs on him and his entourage and their golden commodes.
    I also believe there will be a several-year lag between the time he croaks and the moment we find out about it, and that will be the same moment we find out what out who exactly that gigantic and lavish, pyramid-shaped Mausoleum was intended for that has been under construction for years on the National Mall in Washington DC, the FDR, Vietnam Veteran, Lincoln, and MLK monuments having been razed to make room for it.
    The Washington Monument, by comparison, will serve as a tiny exclamation point alongside.
    Bannon will lie in permanent state, disheveled and waxen, in the roomy entry alcove.

  243. Marty’s correct, and I don’t have a cite for it, but I’ve read in recent days how Wall Street and hedge fund traders, who live to bleed everyone dry and call it making a liquid market, are salivating over the prospects of trump chaos causing tidal waves of volatility so they can trade against every deplorable’s dwindling 401K, IRA, and cash brokerage accounts in the country and the world.
    Hi Count. Sorry, but this is wrong. Think about it: to be able to short or long a particular company, you’d have to know what the DT is going to say and what impact it will have. And, you have to know it several weeks, at least, in advance. Since he doesn’t know what he is going to say or do next, no one else can possibly know.
    Hedge fund managers usually don’t trade securities. They buy and sell companies–mergers and acquisitions. Like investment bankers. Like Baine Capital. They do that based on assumptions about future earnings, etc. Which you can’t make in a world that turns itself upside down every news cycle.
    Money managers hate volatility because it makes them look bad and its bad for business.
    People like me and every other soon to retire person particularly don’t like seeing out net worth yo-yo every time the DT’s neuron’s spark.
    If you look at pretty much any publicly traded stock, you can see how much is held by institutional investors. It’s usually more than half. So, where some might see a capitalist conspiracy in favor of loonieness, almost all the capitalists line up on the other side. Which is more of a problem for the DT in the long run than the folks over at Slate having apoplexy.
    So, glad to have you back, but I think I have the better side of this one.

  244. Marty’s correct, and I don’t have a cite for it, but I’ve read in recent days how Wall Street and hedge fund traders, who live to bleed everyone dry and call it making a liquid market, are salivating over the prospects of trump chaos causing tidal waves of volatility so they can trade against every deplorable’s dwindling 401K, IRA, and cash brokerage accounts in the country and the world.
    Hi Count. Sorry, but this is wrong. Think about it: to be able to short or long a particular company, you’d have to know what the DT is going to say and what impact it will have. And, you have to know it several weeks, at least, in advance. Since he doesn’t know what he is going to say or do next, no one else can possibly know.
    Hedge fund managers usually don’t trade securities. They buy and sell companies–mergers and acquisitions. Like investment bankers. Like Baine Capital. They do that based on assumptions about future earnings, etc. Which you can’t make in a world that turns itself upside down every news cycle.
    Money managers hate volatility because it makes them look bad and its bad for business.
    People like me and every other soon to retire person particularly don’t like seeing out net worth yo-yo every time the DT’s neuron’s spark.
    If you look at pretty much any publicly traded stock, you can see how much is held by institutional investors. It’s usually more than half. So, where some might see a capitalist conspiracy in favor of loonieness, almost all the capitalists line up on the other side. Which is more of a problem for the DT in the long run than the folks over at Slate having apoplexy.
    So, glad to have you back, but I think I have the better side of this one.

  245. There is a difference between the “investor class” and the intermediaries on Wall Street. The intermediaries on wall street make money through stock volatility because of the increase in trading, where they get their commissions. See also the high frequency traders (whose value add i was never able to figure out – they claim to provide “liquidity”).
    McKinney – I think you are talking about private equity, a different class than hedge funds. AFAICT hedge funds generally don’t do M&A or purchasing whole companies, but instead make highly leveraged bets on the stock market, long and/or short.
    But overall I agree, the great runup in income inequality in this country over the past 35+ years has little to do with stock market volatility.

  246. There is a difference between the “investor class” and the intermediaries on Wall Street. The intermediaries on wall street make money through stock volatility because of the increase in trading, where they get their commissions. See also the high frequency traders (whose value add i was never able to figure out – they claim to provide “liquidity”).
    McKinney – I think you are talking about private equity, a different class than hedge funds. AFAICT hedge funds generally don’t do M&A or purchasing whole companies, but instead make highly leveraged bets on the stock market, long and/or short.
    But overall I agree, the great runup in income inequality in this country over the past 35+ years has little to do with stock market volatility.

  249. McTX, ugh points out some of the distinctions I should have made in my comment.
    True, professional money managers don’t like market volatility, just as business does not care for uncertainty (I can make the case that a sizable market rally would have occurred after the election no matter who won simply because THAT particular uncertainty would have been dispelled for an interval; albeit, if Clinton had won, the rally would occurred in different sectors).
    However, the trading desks of the world’s banks and brokerages, as well as independent professional traders, with the vast quant computing power at their disposal revel in market volatility, as pennies can be shaved going both directions. They make money on the sheer volume of nuts trying to trade the volatility, mostly via options I would expect.
    Also, realize that professional money managers who run pension funds and traditional mutual funds are now losing assets to Exchange-Traded Funds, which allow you and me and the public the illusion that we’re better able to surf the volatility of the markets, as you can buy and sell those instruments daily, unlike the former assets.
    From personal experience, I can tell you ETFs, especially the specialized ones that tout leveraged exposure to markets, are a mug’s game for the individual investor, because 99% of us don’t have the psychology (largely determined by the fact that we don’t have the financial cushion to be able to handle big losses all at once, so we rack up those big losses by losing a little bit at a time trying to play it both ways) required to benefit, as bobbyp alludes to in one of his comments.
    As far as trump’s tweets go and any advantage they might lend the smart money, I don’t see it. He is the Higgs Boson Particle. Now you think you see it, now you don’t.
    Though I understand Goldman Sachs is having a particle accelerator installed in the same room as its world trading desk.
    That’s how trump has run his businesses too. Float like an asshole, sting like a jagoff.
    It inspires fear and uncertainty and you can’t get your bearings. There is no there there, and the there that is there is appalling.
    Chaff, a brilliant mind termed it. Yes, my leige, they say, just to get out of there.
    That said, I could be completely wrong.
    I throw it out there, you guys throw it back.
    Own Berkshire Hathaway and sleep in late, is my advice, which I forget from time to time.

  250. McTX, ugh points out some of the distinctions I should have made in my comment.
    True, professional money managers don’t like market volatility, just as business does not care for uncertainty (I can make the case that a sizable market rally would have occurred after the election no matter who won simply because THAT particular uncertainty would have been dispelled for an interval; albeit, if Clinton had won, the rally would occurred in different sectors).
    However, the trading desks of the world’s banks and brokerages, as well as independent professional traders, with the vast quant computing power at their disposal revel in market volatility, as pennies can be shaved going both directions. They make money on the sheer volume of nuts trying to trade the volatility, mostly via options I would expect.
    Also, realize that professional money managers who run pension funds and traditional mutual funds are now losing assets to Exchange-Traded Funds, which allow you and me and the public the illusion that we’re better able to surf the volatility of the markets, as you can buy and sell those instruments daily, unlike the former assets.
    From personal experience, I can tell you ETFs, especially the specialized ones that tout leveraged exposure to markets, are a mug’s game for the individual investor, because 99% of us don’t have the psychology (largely determined by the fact that we don’t have the financial cushion to be able to handle big losses all at once, so we rack up those big losses by losing a little bit at a time trying to play it both ways) required to benefit, as bobbyp alludes to in one of his comments.
    As far as trump’s tweets go and any advantage they might lend the smart money, I don’t see it. He is the Higgs Boson Particle. Now you think you see it, now you don’t.
    Though I understand Goldman Sachs is having a particle accelerator installed in the same room as its world trading desk.
    That’s how trump has run his businesses too. Float like an asshole, sting like a jagoff.
    It inspires fear and uncertainty and you can’t get your bearings. There is no there there, and the there that is there is appalling.
    Chaff, a brilliant mind termed it. Yes, my leige, they say, just to get out of there.
    That said, I could be completely wrong.
    I throw it out there, you guys throw it back.
    Own Berkshire Hathaway and sleep in late, is my advice, which I forget from time to time.

  251. (this topic stolen from katherine’s twitter feed)
    One of my favorite posters here ever. Got a link to the feed? Much appreciated!
    Think about it: to be able to short or long a particular company, you’d have to know what the DT is going to say and what impact it will have.
    The “what the DT is going to say” is information that could be made available to certain people. The best people, the very very special people, the people with the right genes.
    Lots of ways to make money, when you can’t have a conflict of interest. Or, trade monetizeable information for other things of value.

  252. (this topic stolen from katherine’s twitter feed)
    One of my favorite posters here ever. Got a link to the feed? Much appreciated!
    Think about it: to be able to short or long a particular company, you’d have to know what the DT is going to say and what impact it will have.
    The “what the DT is going to say” is information that could be made available to certain people. The best people, the very very special people, the people with the right genes.
    Lots of ways to make money, when you can’t have a conflict of interest. Or, trade monetizeable information for other things of value.

  253. However, the trading desks of the world’s banks and brokerages, as well as independent professional traders, with the vast quant computing power at their disposal revel in market volatility, as pennies can be shaved going both directions.
    It doesn’t even necessarily take a lot of quant power. It’s just that for casual investors, it’s set up heads they win, tails you lose.
    The way it was explained to me, when I first started dabbling before the first tech bubble broke, was that brokerages typically employ “market makers” whose job is basically to buy whatever you (a small, individual trader) think you want to sell, and sell you whatever you want to buy.
    The operating theory being that in the long run, your trades are probably wrong. So they win. Or, if not wrong, at least not so right that they’ll lose more than the commission they’re also getting from you.
    And that commission (or whatever other transaction fees) is the only guaranteed money in the whole deal – everything else is market randomness that’s going to average out eventually.
    So yeah, if volatility rises, and if that causes transaction counts to go up, then the guys handling the transactions will win. As per usual. And probably nobody else.

  254. However, the trading desks of the world’s banks and brokerages, as well as independent professional traders, with the vast quant computing power at their disposal revel in market volatility, as pennies can be shaved going both directions.
    It doesn’t even necessarily take a lot of quant power. It’s just that for casual investors, it’s set up heads they win, tails you lose.
    The way it was explained to me, when I first started dabbling before the first tech bubble broke, was that brokerages typically employ “market makers” whose job is basically to buy whatever you (a small, individual trader) think you want to sell, and sell you whatever you want to buy.
    The operating theory being that in the long run, your trades are probably wrong. So they win. Or, if not wrong, at least not so right that they’ll lose more than the commission they’re also getting from you.
    And that commission (or whatever other transaction fees) is the only guaranteed money in the whole deal – everything else is market randomness that’s going to average out eventually.
    So yeah, if volatility rises, and if that causes transaction counts to go up, then the guys handling the transactions will win. As per usual. And probably nobody else.

  259. For any foreign lurkers here:
    The ACLU does accept donations from outside the US. Apparently, their normal annual take is $4million, and they took $24million this past weekend alone. They’re going to need it.

  260. For any foreign lurkers here:
    The ACLU does accept donations from outside the US. Apparently, their normal annual take is $4million, and they took $24million this past weekend alone. They’re going to need it.

  261. They love them some volatility:
    http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2017/01/18/trump_will_make_volatility_and_uncertainty_great_again_102504.html
    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/28/how-trump-immigration-move-could-derail-the-market-rally.html
    http://www.barrons.com/articles/tweeting-trump-makes-volatility-great-again-1480640047
    That last one, which is the best, is behind a paywall. But you can find Barron’s at your library.
    http://realmoney.thestreet.com/articles/01/31/2017/impetuous-trump-course-make-volatility-and-uncertainty-great-again

  262. They love them some volatility:
    http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2017/01/18/trump_will_make_volatility_and_uncertainty_great_again_102504.html
    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/28/how-trump-immigration-move-could-derail-the-market-rally.html
    http://www.barrons.com/articles/tweeting-trump-makes-volatility-great-again-1480640047
    That last one, which is the best, is behind a paywall. But you can find Barron’s at your library.
    http://realmoney.thestreet.com/articles/01/31/2017/impetuous-trump-course-make-volatility-and-uncertainty-great-again

  263. The operating theory being that in the long run, your trades are probably wrong. So they win.
    Not quite. The market maker is an intermediary. His job is to provide liquidity, so if you want to sell and there are no other buyers the mm buys, for a few cents less than you would like to get, and then sells, for a few cents more than the buyer wants to pay.
    A successful market maker is anything but a trader or speculator. To get a sense of how this works, the next time you look up a stock quote, check the bid and ask price and note the difference. For example, I just checked Microsoft. Bid is $64.48/share, ask is $64.49. So the mm’s game is to buy and sell a lot of shares and make a penny each time. Less heavily traded stocks will have a bigger spread.
    This is much like a bookmaker, who functions as an intermediary, or market-maker, for gamblers, not caring who wins the bet, but raking off a percentage of each one.

  264. The operating theory being that in the long run, your trades are probably wrong. So they win.
    Not quite. The market maker is an intermediary. His job is to provide liquidity, so if you want to sell and there are no other buyers the mm buys, for a few cents less than you would like to get, and then sells, for a few cents more than the buyer wants to pay.
    A successful market maker is anything but a trader or speculator. To get a sense of how this works, the next time you look up a stock quote, check the bid and ask price and note the difference. For example, I just checked Microsoft. Bid is $64.48/share, ask is $64.49. So the mm’s game is to buy and sell a lot of shares and make a penny each time. Less heavily traded stocks will have a bigger spread.
    This is much like a bookmaker, who functions as an intermediary, or market-maker, for gamblers, not caring who wins the bet, but raking off a percentage of each one.

  265. And that commission (or whatever other transaction fees) is the only guaranteed money in the whole deal – everything else is market randomness that’s going to average out eventually.
    What bookies refer to as the vigorish.
    He made it clear we are no longer buds.
    The challenging of respective world views was mutual, no? Why was it that your challenging of his was intolerable, but not vice versa? There seems to be a pattern, at least in my experience.

  266. And that commission (or whatever other transaction fees) is the only guaranteed money in the whole deal – everything else is market randomness that’s going to average out eventually.
    What bookies refer to as the vigorish.
    He made it clear we are no longer buds.
    The challenging of respective world views was mutual, no? Why was it that your challenging of his was intolerable, but not vice versa? There seems to be a pattern, at least in my experience.

  269. As I mentioned before, I sold all the stock funds in my biggest retirement account. That was back in the middle of December, once I felt the “Trump rally” had done at least most of what it was going to do. Stock prices did continue upward thereafter, though not enough for me to feel like I was missing out. As of right now, at least the Dow is lower than it was when I sold everything off.
    The question now is when the bottom comes. Maybe I’ll buy a little back when the Dow is at 17K and see what happens after that. If it doesn’t ever get that low, I guess I’ll just sit things out until something approaching sanity returns. And if that doesn’t happen, all bets are off, I guess. What difference will it make?

  270. As I mentioned before, I sold all the stock funds in my biggest retirement account. That was back in the middle of December, once I felt the “Trump rally” had done at least most of what it was going to do. Stock prices did continue upward thereafter, though not enough for me to feel like I was missing out. As of right now, at least the Dow is lower than it was when I sold everything off.
    The question now is when the bottom comes. Maybe I’ll buy a little back when the Dow is at 17K and see what happens after that. If it doesn’t ever get that low, I guess I’ll just sit things out until something approaching sanity returns. And if that doesn’t happen, all bets are off, I guess. What difference will it make?

  271. byomtov is right about the benign facet of market makers.
    Meanwhile, as far as high frequency trading goes, yes they serve a purpose in the ecosystem, much as those cleaner fish do inside the jaws of the Moray Eel.
    Still, volatility breeds profits for trading desks. A stable, non-volatile market for them, wherein the rest of we steady-eddies can clip coupons is, well, boring and not great for the bottom line.
    Meanwhile, a taxonomy, if you will, of:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/01/31/the-four-people-you-meet-in-hell/

  272. byomtov is right about the benign facet of market makers.
    Meanwhile, as far as high frequency trading goes, yes they serve a purpose in the ecosystem, much as those cleaner fish do inside the jaws of the Moray Eel.
    Still, volatility breeds profits for trading desks. A stable, non-volatile market for them, wherein the rest of we steady-eddies can clip coupons is, well, boring and not great for the bottom line.
    Meanwhile, a taxonomy, if you will, of:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/01/31/the-four-people-you-meet-in-hell/

  273. Own Berkshire Hathaway and sleep in late, is my advice, which I forget from time to time.
    Count, that would be great advice except for one thing. Buffett has made no secret of his disagreements with Trump. And Trump loves to take revenge for even minor slights — especially against elites who disrespect him. Which means he doubtless has someone looking into what he could do to damage Berkshire and thereby Buffett.

  274. Own Berkshire Hathaway and sleep in late, is my advice, which I forget from time to time.
    Count, that would be great advice except for one thing. Buffett has made no secret of his disagreements with Trump. And Trump loves to take revenge for even minor slights — especially against elites who disrespect him. Which means he doubtless has someone looking into what he could do to damage Berkshire and thereby Buffett.

  275. Put another way, those cleaner fish inside the alien multiple jaws of the Moray Eel, are mercenaries. They don’t clean because it is the good and true thing to do, they do it because it is profitable and they need to eat too. If they found a more profitable gig, the Moray Eel could go extinct and the cleaners wouldn’t give a shit.
    Trader #1 (name: Wilbur Ross): I’m all in buying what’s good and true today … companies who contribute decent wages and patriotic stability to their American communities made up of hard-working families.
    Trader #2 (name Wilbur Ross): Yeah, but Wilbur, the spread on trading on the buy side of corporations that indulge their animal instincts, creatively destroy American communities by cutting jobs to the bone, exporting labor, and slashing overhead costs like healthcare and pensions is the way to go if you want to make money as a shareholder. After all, Friedman said, blah, blah, blah.
    Wilbur #1: I expect you are right about that. Get on the blower and buy me 10,000 naked calls on those mercenaries. Cancel the good and true trade.
    Wilbur #2: I’ll let you know when that pigfucker trade sours, probably when some ruthless populist ruins it with bullshit promises.
    Wilbur #1: Please do. What do I look like, Mother Theresa? Desides, both of us will always have that Rosneft stake sitting pretty in Barbados, won’t we, my liebchen doppelganger.
    Arthur Jensen: There are no Nations, there are no peoples … etc. etc. Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale?

  276. Put another way, those cleaner fish inside the alien multiple jaws of the Moray Eel, are mercenaries. They don’t clean because it is the good and true thing to do, they do it because it is profitable and they need to eat too. If they found a more profitable gig, the Moray Eel could go extinct and the cleaners wouldn’t give a shit.
    Trader #1 (name: Wilbur Ross): I’m all in buying what’s good and true today … companies who contribute decent wages and patriotic stability to their American communities made up of hard-working families.
    Trader #2 (name Wilbur Ross): Yeah, but Wilbur, the spread on trading on the buy side of corporations that indulge their animal instincts, creatively destroy American communities by cutting jobs to the bone, exporting labor, and slashing overhead costs like healthcare and pensions is the way to go if you want to make money as a shareholder. After all, Friedman said, blah, blah, blah.
    Wilbur #1: I expect you are right about that. Get on the blower and buy me 10,000 naked calls on those mercenaries. Cancel the good and true trade.
    Wilbur #2: I’ll let you know when that pigfucker trade sours, probably when some ruthless populist ruins it with bullshit promises.
    Wilbur #1: Please do. What do I look like, Mother Theresa? Desides, both of us will always have that Rosneft stake sitting pretty in Barbados, won’t we, my liebchen doppelganger.
    Arthur Jensen: There are no Nations, there are no peoples … etc. etc. Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale?

  279. The question now is when the bottom comes. Maybe I’ll buy a little back when the Dow is at 17K and see what happens after that. If it doesn’t ever get that low, I guess I’ll just sit things out until something approaching sanity returns.
    HSH, the thing you want is “limit orders.”** You put in an order for a stock (or fund or whatever), specifying the price you are willing to pay. If the price drops that low, the trade gets executed. If it doesn’t get that low, nothing happens. (These usually come with an expiration date, so you need to check back occasionally to see if they need to be placed again.)
    Similarly on the up side also. You say you want to sell if the price go up to a certain point. If/when it does, the sale happens.
    Sometimes you get really lucky. If the market has one of its high-volatility/high movement twitches, you can end up buying something at a fraction of the price most of the rest of the world paid, or selling at a higher one. Simply because the market maker had to fill an order, and the best price he could get was your limit order.
    Guess I did learn a couple things while in Schwab’s IT department back in the day.
    ** The default is “market orders”. Where you pay/get whatever the market maker is dealing at (plus his vigorish, of course). If the market moves suddenly, that may not be what you were looking at when you hit Enter on your order.

  280. The question now is when the bottom comes. Maybe I’ll buy a little back when the Dow is at 17K and see what happens after that. If it doesn’t ever get that low, I guess I’ll just sit things out until something approaching sanity returns.
    HSH, the thing you want is “limit orders.”** You put in an order for a stock (or fund or whatever), specifying the price you are willing to pay. If the price drops that low, the trade gets executed. If it doesn’t get that low, nothing happens. (These usually come with an expiration date, so you need to check back occasionally to see if they need to be placed again.)
    Similarly on the up side also. You say you want to sell if the price go up to a certain point. If/when it does, the sale happens.
    Sometimes you get really lucky. If the market has one of its high-volatility/high movement twitches, you can end up buying something at a fraction of the price most of the rest of the world paid, or selling at a higher one. Simply because the market maker had to fill an order, and the best price he could get was your limit order.
    Guess I did learn a couple things while in Schwab’s IT department back in the day.
    ** The default is “market orders”. Where you pay/get whatever the market maker is dealing at (plus his vigorish, of course). If the market moves suddenly, that may not be what you were looking at when you hit Enter on your order.

  281. hairshirthedonist: As I mentioned before, I sold all the stock funds in my biggest retirement account.
    So what did you invest in instead? I’ve had an outsized share of my retirement $ in long-term treasuries for a long time. I’m terrified that genius Trump is going to do what he said he’d do about that, too, i.e.,: at some point default or not pay full value. Then again, I’ve always felt, in relation to having my money in those bonds, that if “full faith and credit blah blah” failed, my retirement worries would be the least of my problems.
    We’re heading there one way or another, I’m afraid.

  282. hairshirthedonist: As I mentioned before, I sold all the stock funds in my biggest retirement account.
    So what did you invest in instead? I’ve had an outsized share of my retirement $ in long-term treasuries for a long time. I’m terrified that genius Trump is going to do what he said he’d do about that, too, i.e.,: at some point default or not pay full value. Then again, I’ve always felt, in relation to having my money in those bonds, that if “full faith and credit blah blah” failed, my retirement worries would be the least of my problems.
    We’re heading there one way or another, I’m afraid.

  283. wj, this is a self-directed retirement account, like an IRA or 401k. I’m just logging on and reallocating my balances between stock funds and a money market fund as I see fit (relatively rarely). I don’t even put new money into it anymore, just because I can’t afford to now that I’m like Jimmy Stewart in “It’s a Wonderful Life” (as in, “Why do we have so many kids?”).
    So the sort answer is “It don’t do that stuff.”

  284. wj, this is a self-directed retirement account, like an IRA or 401k. I’m just logging on and reallocating my balances between stock funds and a money market fund as I see fit (relatively rarely). I don’t even put new money into it anymore, just because I can’t afford to now that I’m like Jimmy Stewart in “It’s a Wonderful Life” (as in, “Why do we have so many kids?”).
    So the sort answer is “It don’t do that stuff.”

  285. Shane asked above whether it is true that NSC nominations have to be approved by the Senate, and that therefore Bannon is potentially in trouble.
    The answer would seem to be “No” (i.e., yes, actual NSC members must be approved, but as a “Committee” member invited to attend, Bannon is in the clear). Thus at least Lawrence Tribe, who knows more law than those who made the original claim.

  286. Shane asked above whether it is true that NSC nominations have to be approved by the Senate, and that therefore Bannon is potentially in trouble.
    The answer would seem to be “No” (i.e., yes, actual NSC members must be approved, but as a “Committee” member invited to attend, Bannon is in the clear). Thus at least Lawrence Tribe, who knows more law than those who made the original claim.

  287. Then again, I’ve always felt, in relation to having my money in those bonds, that if “full faith and credit blah blah” failed, my retirement worries would be the least of my problems.
    Yeah. If our money becomes more or less worthless, we’re all pretty well fncked, probably worldwide. I think we’re outside whatever investment strategies are available to “regular” people in that case.

  288. Then again, I’ve always felt, in relation to having my money in those bonds, that if “full faith and credit blah blah” failed, my retirement worries would be the least of my problems.
    Yeah. If our money becomes more or less worthless, we’re all pretty well fncked, probably worldwide. I think we’re outside whatever investment strategies are available to “regular” people in that case.

  291. Just be sure that you buy land you can actually use. That is, farm land — since pretty much any thing else produced from land is valuable only to the extent that the economy is functioning. For example, having a mine is only worthwhile if you can sell the product . . . and get it to market. Etc., etc., etc.

  292. Just be sure that you buy land you can actually use. That is, farm land — since pretty much any thing else produced from land is valuable only to the extent that the economy is functioning. For example, having a mine is only worthwhile if you can sell the product . . . and get it to market. Etc., etc., etc.

  293. “Use” is an elastic concept. If I buy land, it won’t be primarily (or maybe at all) as an investment on which I hope to get a return, but mostly as a place to park value that I could leave to my kids. Money is nice, but second to that, I can’t imagine anything my son would rather have than a nice chunk of Maine woodland. 😉
    This reminds me of an argument years ago on this blog about home-owning. But never mind, I won’t go there.

  294. “Use” is an elastic concept. If I buy land, it won’t be primarily (or maybe at all) as an investment on which I hope to get a return, but mostly as a place to park value that I could leave to my kids. Money is nice, but second to that, I can’t imagine anything my son would rather have than a nice chunk of Maine woodland. 😉
    This reminds me of an argument years ago on this blog about home-owning. But never mind, I won’t go there.

  297. byomtov has it right. Next time you nose about in some “how to get rich in the stock market” tome, look up the concept of “spread”.
    For big companies on major exchanges, it’s a small cost, but still a cost to the trader. If you really want to get sheared by the spread, trade penny stocks.

  298. byomtov has it right. Next time you nose about in some “how to get rich in the stock market” tome, look up the concept of “spread”.
    For big companies on major exchanges, it’s a small cost, but still a cost to the trader. If you really want to get sheared by the spread, trade penny stocks.

  299. They are now revoking Global Entry participation for U.S. citizens who are dual nationals with one of the 7 countries.
    This is not the biggest calamity in the world (if it’s one at all) but still, damn.

  300. They are now revoking Global Entry participation for U.S. citizens who are dual nationals with one of the 7 countries.
    This is not the biggest calamity in the world (if it’s one at all) but still, damn.

  301. old stock market adage….
    bears make money.
    bulls make money.
    pigs get slaughtered.
    But you want to talk about transferring wealth in gigantic monstrous gobs?
    Here’s how:
    1. Promote a “strong” currency that results in more imports (job losses) and less exports (more job losses – a twofer’!!!)
    2. Raise interest rates anytime wages start to go up…throwing people out of work (aka financial setback), weakening the labor market, and crimping labor bargaining power.
    Now there’s some really BIG money!
    The financial sector’s increasing amount of take as at % of GNP is due mostly to special tax treatments and other financial chicanery that are not only allowed, but enabled by current public policy.
    Did I say “PUBLIC”? I dare say, I did indeed.
    So, what nightmare will Trump inflict on the Supreme Court this evening?

  302. old stock market adage….
    bears make money.
    bulls make money.
    pigs get slaughtered.
    But you want to talk about transferring wealth in gigantic monstrous gobs?
    Here’s how:
    1. Promote a “strong” currency that results in more imports (job losses) and less exports (more job losses – a twofer’!!!)
    2. Raise interest rates anytime wages start to go up…throwing people out of work (aka financial setback), weakening the labor market, and crimping labor bargaining power.
    Now there’s some really BIG money!
    The financial sector’s increasing amount of take as at % of GNP is due mostly to special tax treatments and other financial chicanery that are not only allowed, but enabled by current public policy.
    Did I say “PUBLIC”? I dare say, I did indeed.
    So, what nightmare will Trump inflict on the Supreme Court this evening?

  305. “If you really want to get sheared by the spread, trade penny stocks.”
    Blinder Robinson AKA Blind’em and Rob’em, early 1980s Denver
    Thieves, liars, kellyannconmen. Violence was too good for them.
    Cable West TV, if I remember the name of the penny stock correctly.
    Speaking of those ilk, watch:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGVclQdXCf8
    About 2:30 minutes in, he’ll tell the kind of below-par “businessman” trump was.

  306. “If you really want to get sheared by the spread, trade penny stocks.”
    Blinder Robinson AKA Blind’em and Rob’em, early 1980s Denver
    Thieves, liars, kellyannconmen. Violence was too good for them.
    Cable West TV, if I remember the name of the penny stock correctly.
    Speaking of those ilk, watch:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGVclQdXCf8
    About 2:30 minutes in, he’ll tell the kind of below-par “businessman” trump was.

  309. My last job cratered when the company was bought by some smart guys from NY (NJ actually) who took the stock price of their company from about $15 to about 2 cents in something like 15 months.
    Utter clowns. Not just crooks, but incompetent crooks. Just the biggest bunch of Keystone Kop bullshit artists I think I’ve ever had to deal with.
    And yet, they got a lot of people to throw many millions of dollars at them.
    My wife and I have some investments, we have a guy who manages them, he does a pretty good job. He’s got all of my 401K stuff, which doesn’t really require a lot of close management. And he’s got my wife’s stuff, which is more complicated and which he actually does actively manage.
    No doubt somebody really sharp could squeeze a couple more points out of the market for us, but we’re just not that hungry I guess.
    The last thing I want in my life is the freaking heartburn of trying to outsmart the market. I’d rather just work, it’s easier and less stressful.
    I’ve actually got a small amount of after-tax money that’s earning about 0.00001% in a credit union savings account, I’m probably gonna call my guy Joel and have him chuck it in BRK-B.
    That’s about as wild as I get.
    Our Really Big Plan is to pay off the mortgage before I retire. If you don’t owe a lot of money, it gives you some options.

  310. My last job cratered when the company was bought by some smart guys from NY (NJ actually) who took the stock price of their company from about $15 to about 2 cents in something like 15 months.
    Utter clowns. Not just crooks, but incompetent crooks. Just the biggest bunch of Keystone Kop bullshit artists I think I’ve ever had to deal with.
    And yet, they got a lot of people to throw many millions of dollars at them.
    My wife and I have some investments, we have a guy who manages them, he does a pretty good job. He’s got all of my 401K stuff, which doesn’t really require a lot of close management. And he’s got my wife’s stuff, which is more complicated and which he actually does actively manage.
    No doubt somebody really sharp could squeeze a couple more points out of the market for us, but we’re just not that hungry I guess.
    The last thing I want in my life is the freaking heartburn of trying to outsmart the market. I’d rather just work, it’s easier and less stressful.
    I’ve actually got a small amount of after-tax money that’s earning about 0.00001% in a credit union savings account, I’m probably gonna call my guy Joel and have him chuck it in BRK-B.
    That’s about as wild as I get.
    Our Really Big Plan is to pay off the mortgage before I retire. If you don’t owe a lot of money, it gives you some options.

  311. lj – thanks, ditto. I’ve been thinking about your post on learning Chinese … more on that later, maybe.

  312. lj – thanks, ditto. I’ve been thinking about your post on learning Chinese … more on that later, maybe.

  313. Just read LGM, which has accounts from two front-pagers of Jewish Community Centers in their neighborhoods being evacuated due to bomb threats.
    Plus a mosque being burned down in TX. Plus another quiet boy next door flipping out with an AK in Quebec City.
    Not even Canada’s immune, apparently.
    I used to have a good friend who lived down by Coney Island in Brooklyn. This was before – way before – Brooklyn was the hip happening place to be.
    I was visiting him and his wife one night and offered to walk the baby-sitter home. The way home was through a Hasidic neighborhood. Baby-sitter and I were followed for several blocks by five really big guys with yarmulkes and forelocks, all packed into a little Datsun.
    They just wanted to know what I was up to.
    On another occasion, when the folks in that community felt the cops weren’t getting their backs, they took a freaking police station apart.
    All the little Breitbart fanbois might think it’s cute to call everybody snowflake and push some people around, but that bullshit is going to have a pretty short shelf-life these days.
    I happen to live in a neighborhood with a more-than-average Jewish population. Especially for New England. If this crap shows up around here, I’ll be signing up for neighborhood watch. With a freaking bat.
    It is un-fucking-believable that we still have to deal with this kind of bullshit in this day and age. But if folks want to bring it, then freaking bring it.
    It ain’t gonna be like the old days when you could push people with dark skin or funny names around and get away with it. Folks are kind of beyond that now.

  314. Just read LGM, which has accounts from two front-pagers of Jewish Community Centers in their neighborhoods being evacuated due to bomb threats.
    Plus a mosque being burned down in TX. Plus another quiet boy next door flipping out with an AK in Quebec City.
    Not even Canada’s immune, apparently.
    I used to have a good friend who lived down by Coney Island in Brooklyn. This was before – way before – Brooklyn was the hip happening place to be.
    I was visiting him and his wife one night and offered to walk the baby-sitter home. The way home was through a Hasidic neighborhood. Baby-sitter and I were followed for several blocks by five really big guys with yarmulkes and forelocks, all packed into a little Datsun.
    They just wanted to know what I was up to.
    On another occasion, when the folks in that community felt the cops weren’t getting their backs, they took a freaking police station apart.
    All the little Breitbart fanbois might think it’s cute to call everybody snowflake and push some people around, but that bullshit is going to have a pretty short shelf-life these days.
    I happen to live in a neighborhood with a more-than-average Jewish population. Especially for New England. If this crap shows up around here, I’ll be signing up for neighborhood watch. With a freaking bat.
    It is un-fucking-believable that we still have to deal with this kind of bullshit in this day and age. But if folks want to bring it, then freaking bring it.
    It ain’t gonna be like the old days when you could push people with dark skin or funny names around and get away with it. Folks are kind of beyond that now.

  317. “It is un-fucking-believable that we still have to deal with this kind of bullshit in this day and age. But if folks want to bring it, then freaking bring it.”
    Not a peep either regarding this homegrown right wing white terrorism from the top-down instigators.
    Not a bleeping condemnation from the NRA. Not an effing harrumph from the usual suspects anywhere on the intercrickets.
    Not a Texan nor any of them racist, homophobic crackers from the Carolinas have roused themselves to condemn the right wing terrorists and arsonists for their culture and the way their daddies left their mommies, so what would you expect?
    Have they checked to see if these precious objects were educated in Eric Prince’s sister’s religious charter schools where they teach a particularly virulent form of all-American Sharia?
    Two countries remain off the trump list for immigration: Canada and the United States. Other countries should immediately begin turning back suspicious-looking Canadians and Americans. Racially-profile them. Those shifty-eyed white conservative fecks, like Bannon. Cavity searches all around. Shoot streiff the second his foot crosses a border.
    My First Amendment rights are violated every time a Republican conservative eats cake through their ignorant pieholes. Has Betty Crocker no sense of decency providing cake to these mouth-breathers? Time to blow out their candles.
    America is full of shit. Bullshit is its fundamental nourishment.

  318. “It is un-fucking-believable that we still have to deal with this kind of bullshit in this day and age. But if folks want to bring it, then freaking bring it.”
    Not a peep either regarding this homegrown right wing white terrorism from the top-down instigators.
    Not a bleeping condemnation from the NRA. Not an effing harrumph from the usual suspects anywhere on the intercrickets.
    Not a Texan nor any of them racist, homophobic crackers from the Carolinas have roused themselves to condemn the right wing terrorists and arsonists for their culture and the way their daddies left their mommies, so what would you expect?
    Have they checked to see if these precious objects were educated in Eric Prince’s sister’s religious charter schools where they teach a particularly virulent form of all-American Sharia?
    Two countries remain off the trump list for immigration: Canada and the United States. Other countries should immediately begin turning back suspicious-looking Canadians and Americans. Racially-profile them. Those shifty-eyed white conservative fecks, like Bannon. Cavity searches all around. Shoot streiff the second his foot crosses a border.
    My First Amendment rights are violated every time a Republican conservative eats cake through their ignorant pieholes. Has Betty Crocker no sense of decency providing cake to these mouth-breathers? Time to blow out their candles.
    America is full of shit. Bullshit is its fundamental nourishment.

  327. Judge Judy would have been by guess.
    But no. He went with Neil Gorsuch. FYI, 538 rates him as somewhat to the right of Scalia (though nowhere near as far right as Thomas). Those who were selling their souls to Trump in order to get a conservative justice seem to have at least gotten what they paid for.

  328. Judge Judy would have been by guess.
    But no. He went with Neil Gorsuch. FYI, 538 rates him as somewhat to the right of Scalia (though nowhere near as far right as Thomas). Those who were selling their souls to Trump in order to get a conservative justice seem to have at least gotten what they paid for.

  329. Wasn’t Gorsuch’s mother screwing Bob Burford behind Neil and his Dad’s backs about the time the kid was learning to drive?
    That must have bent him.
    She drank lead paint right out of the can when she headed up Reagan’s EPA, but only the primary colors.

  330. Wasn’t Gorsuch’s mother screwing Bob Burford behind Neil and his Dad’s backs about the time the kid was learning to drive?
    That must have bent him.
    She drank lead paint right out of the can when she headed up Reagan’s EPA, but only the primary colors.

  337. I’m from Colorado. She and Burford were rumored to have been having dalliances, or at least making eyes at each other, when she was still a crazy in the Colorado State Legislature, before the two of them moved on to the Reagan cabinet.
    She divorced Neil’s Dad in 1982 and married Burford in 1983, not that there is anything wrong with that, except EVERYTHING, according to the Bible, the Constitution and very right winger in the firmament, unless, natch, THEY do it.
    Apparently, it was known throughout the Washington D.C gossip heirarchy.
    I made up the part about the lead paint. It was actually leaded gasoline she drank by the shot glass.
    She was cited for contempt of Congress for refusing to release the people’s business to them and because she was naturally contemptuous.
    However, compared to the current crew running the rodeo, she was f*cking Barbara Streisand.

  338. I’m from Colorado. She and Burford were rumored to have been having dalliances, or at least making eyes at each other, when she was still a crazy in the Colorado State Legislature, before the two of them moved on to the Reagan cabinet.
    She divorced Neil’s Dad in 1982 and married Burford in 1983, not that there is anything wrong with that, except EVERYTHING, according to the Bible, the Constitution and very right winger in the firmament, unless, natch, THEY do it.
    Apparently, it was known throughout the Washington D.C gossip heirarchy.
    I made up the part about the lead paint. It was actually leaded gasoline she drank by the shot glass.
    She was cited for contempt of Congress for refusing to release the people’s business to them and because she was naturally contemptuous.
    However, compared to the current crew running the rodeo, she was f*cking Barbara Streisand.

  339. Wow. Nice memory.
    My 3 minutes of internet surfing tells me he will be just as anti-abortion as Scalia.
    Ginsburg Breyer and Kennedy have 240 years on them. Goodbye Roe.

  340. Wow. Nice memory.
    My 3 minutes of internet surfing tells me he will be just as anti-abortion as Scalia.
    Ginsburg Breyer and Kennedy have 240 years on them. Goodbye Roe.

  351. Why was it that your challenging of his was intolerable, but not vice versa?
    I was really obnoxious and told him he was afraid of immigrant children, in colorful language. But at least that got through.

  352. Why was it that your challenging of his was intolerable, but not vice versa?
    I was really obnoxious and told him he was afraid of immigrant children, in colorful language. But at least that got through.

  355. I was really obnoxious and told him he was afraid of immigrant children, in colorful language. But at least that got through.
    Now I feel bad for the precious snowflake.

  356. I was really obnoxious and told him he was afraid of immigrant children, in colorful language. But at least that got through.
    Now I feel bad for the precious snowflake.

  363. God we are so awesome fncked:
    A great deal of reporting backs up the claim that the most ideologically extreme members of the administration cobbled the order together without external input, but the scapegoating is an effective admission that Trump signs whatever is put in front of him, without reading or understanding it. The incentive for ambitious operators within the administration is thus to do whatever’s necessary to get unvetted orders and choices before the president by any possible means, so they become national policy before sensible people can intervene.
    Whee!

  364. God we are so awesome fncked:
    A great deal of reporting backs up the claim that the most ideologically extreme members of the administration cobbled the order together without external input, but the scapegoating is an effective admission that Trump signs whatever is put in front of him, without reading or understanding it. The incentive for ambitious operators within the administration is thus to do whatever’s necessary to get unvetted orders and choices before the president by any possible means, so they become national policy before sensible people can intervene.
    Whee!

  365. I’d like to claim I’m more surprised than I am (i.e. not much) by the Count’s 12:50 AM link. My father was a career police officer, so I’ve been around cops more than most people my whole life. For whatever reason, these many years later, I seem to have an inordinate number of neighbors and friends from high school who are cops or former cops.
    I don’t know of any who I would say were outright white supremacists, but I can say I’ve known many with varying degrees of sympathy for them – the kind of people who would say things like, “Not all blacks are bad. There are a few good ones out there.” When I was a kid it was more likely to be phrased as differentiating between n***ers and not-so-bad blacks.

  366. I’d like to claim I’m more surprised than I am (i.e. not much) by the Count’s 12:50 AM link. My father was a career police officer, so I’ve been around cops more than most people my whole life. For whatever reason, these many years later, I seem to have an inordinate number of neighbors and friends from high school who are cops or former cops.
    I don’t know of any who I would say were outright white supremacists, but I can say I’ve known many with varying degrees of sympathy for them – the kind of people who would say things like, “Not all blacks are bad. There are a few good ones out there.” When I was a kid it was more likely to be phrased as differentiating between n***ers and not-so-bad blacks.

  367. Ugh: I think that to get Trump to sign an order without reading it, it probably require the presence of TV cameras.
    Like Dubya’s “now watch this drive”, gone horribly wrong.

  368. Ugh: I think that to get Trump to sign an order without reading it, it probably require the presence of TV cameras.
    Like Dubya’s “now watch this drive”, gone horribly wrong.

  371. Could be Snarki.
    One question is, if enough of these blow up in his face and he recognizes that it has blown up (as opposed to dismissing it as fake news and lying media/inaccurate polls) who gets the blame/boot? Perhaps that’s one way to get rid of Bannon and Miller.

  372. Could be Snarki.
    One question is, if enough of these blow up in his face and he recognizes that it has blown up (as opposed to dismissing it as fake news and lying media/inaccurate polls) who gets the blame/boot? Perhaps that’s one way to get rid of Bannon and Miller.

  375. I suspect that hiring or retaining competent people is a problem for Donald Trump — what kind of people want to work for a boss who delights in humiliating them and setting them against each other?

  376. I suspect that hiring or retaining competent people is a problem for Donald Trump — what kind of people want to work for a boss who delights in humiliating them and setting them against each other?

  377. Well, at least competence is not yet officially an automatic disqualifier like it was in the Lesser Bush’s Great Iraq Adventure (when potential candidates for posts in the occupation regime that actually could speak Arabic were explicitly not hired for that very reason).

  378. Well, at least competence is not yet officially an automatic disqualifier like it was in the Lesser Bush’s Great Iraq Adventure (when potential candidates for posts in the occupation regime that actually could speak Arabic were explicitly not hired for that very reason).

  381. For some reason I think the GOPs action w/r/t Merrick Garland would bother me a lot less if they would just come out and say “we have the political power not to confirm (or even hold hearings about) Merrick Garland and so we’re not going to.”
    Just say what it was – a purely naked use of political power, the end. All this bloviating about the “people” deciding and non-existent principles etc. just pissed me off.

  382. For some reason I think the GOPs action w/r/t Merrick Garland would bother me a lot less if they would just come out and say “we have the political power not to confirm (or even hold hearings about) Merrick Garland and so we’re not going to.”
    Just say what it was – a purely naked use of political power, the end. All this bloviating about the “people” deciding and non-existent principles etc. just pissed me off.

  389. “….. what kind of people want to work for a boss who delights in humiliating them and setting them against each other?”
    Count the eyeballs who watch reality television shows …”The Apprentice” every week, and then count the eyeballs, if you can, who watch “cuckold” porn, one of the most popular recent “genres” in that “art” form (yech)(catch up on the alt-Right’s use of the word “cuck” to denigrate nearly everyone, including the deplorables who voted for trump) and then count the eyeballs who take in the WWF each week. Add in Merrick Garland, who should have been toting a weapon when meeting with the sadistic republican filth all last Summer and Fall who claim they “serve” in Congress.
    There are plenty of conservatives in this country who are pleading to be humiliated by trump and there are plenty of conservatives who take visceral sadistic pleasure in doing the humiliating.
    Many of the filth will volunteer to man the black sites trump has just reinstated for the sheer pleasure of humiliating and torturing Muslims. It will be good training for them when they return stateside and start in on you and me.
    I’d have loved to have been a fly on the Wall as trump, bannon, flynn, spicer and company watched the TV footage of a blind, 80-year old human being in a wheelchair at an airport being whisked away into custody away from family and his meds.
    Did you see the delight on trump’s face as he announced it was all going very well?
    I’m quite sure they watched from the White House the news reports of the murder of six Muslims at the Mosque in Canada with their pants unzipped and stroking their tiny republican conservative boners, while Kelly Ann Conkiller sat in the corner squirting and squealing.
    I dearly hope the Canadian Government learns the provenance of the AK-47 the cuck used was an arms smuggling operation across their border from the United States and calls a 60-day halt to all tourism and business from this terrorist country and then resumes and makes every filthy, mass murdering American, including me, submit to hours of interrogation and humiliation in order to visit their decent civilization.

  390. “….. what kind of people want to work for a boss who delights in humiliating them and setting them against each other?”
    Count the eyeballs who watch reality television shows …”The Apprentice” every week, and then count the eyeballs, if you can, who watch “cuckold” porn, one of the most popular recent “genres” in that “art” form (yech)(catch up on the alt-Right’s use of the word “cuck” to denigrate nearly everyone, including the deplorables who voted for trump) and then count the eyeballs who take in the WWF each week. Add in Merrick Garland, who should have been toting a weapon when meeting with the sadistic republican filth all last Summer and Fall who claim they “serve” in Congress.
    There are plenty of conservatives in this country who are pleading to be humiliated by trump and there are plenty of conservatives who take visceral sadistic pleasure in doing the humiliating.
    Many of the filth will volunteer to man the black sites trump has just reinstated for the sheer pleasure of humiliating and torturing Muslims. It will be good training for them when they return stateside and start in on you and me.
    I’d have loved to have been a fly on the Wall as trump, bannon, flynn, spicer and company watched the TV footage of a blind, 80-year old human being in a wheelchair at an airport being whisked away into custody away from family and his meds.
    Did you see the delight on trump’s face as he announced it was all going very well?
    I’m quite sure they watched from the White House the news reports of the murder of six Muslims at the Mosque in Canada with their pants unzipped and stroking their tiny republican conservative boners, while Kelly Ann Conkiller sat in the corner squirting and squealing.
    I dearly hope the Canadian Government learns the provenance of the AK-47 the cuck used was an arms smuggling operation across their border from the United States and calls a 60-day halt to all tourism and business from this terrorist country and then resumes and makes every filthy, mass murdering American, including me, submit to hours of interrogation and humiliation in order to visit their decent civilization.

  395. As others have mentioned, when crossing from Canada to the US, the customs & border patrol officers distinguish themselves for being gratuitously rude and officious.
    Going the other direction, the experience is much more pleasant, with the one extra (and unexpected!) question being “are you carrying in any guns?”
    I can usually refrain from answering “you’re kidding, right?”

  396. As others have mentioned, when crossing from Canada to the US, the customs & border patrol officers distinguish themselves for being gratuitously rude and officious.
    Going the other direction, the experience is much more pleasant, with the one extra (and unexpected!) question being “are you carrying in any guns?”
    I can usually refrain from answering “you’re kidding, right?”

  397. “Perhaps that’s one way to get rid of Bannon and Miller.”
    I believe the public meme we are looking for is “Bannon appears to have tricked Trump into giving away the power of Presidential decision…”
    Let’s get that in front of Trump’s TV watching for a few weeks in a row…

  398. “Perhaps that’s one way to get rid of Bannon and Miller.”
    I believe the public meme we are looking for is “Bannon appears to have tricked Trump into giving away the power of Presidential decision…”
    Let’s get that in front of Trump’s TV watching for a few weeks in a row…

  399. Bannon and Miller are going nowhere except up our butts for the duration. We don’t live in that country we pine for anymore.
    http://time.com/4657474/donald-trump-enrique-pena-nieto-mexico-bad-hombres/
    Mexico needs to bring in Chinese and Russian troops and missiles to control its border with Uncle to its north.
    Texas itself is a hostile neighbor.
    Also, war with Iran soon. It will be strategically nuclear, as in turning them into glass and stealing their oil.
    The Ukraine is hotting up. Any move on trump’s part will be countered by Russian troop and naval mischief along its western borders with Eastern Europe, maybe picking off either of the L countries. They can have Poland as far as I’m concerned, given their newly-Nazi alignment.
    Though it could be that Putin can waltz right into the Ukraine now that 19.5% of Rosneft is safely in trump’s Barbados account, with a little taste for Congressional republicans and most of the U.S. National Security hierarchy, including the Clinton haters in the FBI, who don’t work for peanuts, you know.

  400. Bannon and Miller are going nowhere except up our butts for the duration. We don’t live in that country we pine for anymore.
    http://time.com/4657474/donald-trump-enrique-pena-nieto-mexico-bad-hombres/
    Mexico needs to bring in Chinese and Russian troops and missiles to control its border with Uncle to its north.
    Texas itself is a hostile neighbor.
    Also, war with Iran soon. It will be strategically nuclear, as in turning them into glass and stealing their oil.
    The Ukraine is hotting up. Any move on trump’s part will be countered by Russian troop and naval mischief along its western borders with Eastern Europe, maybe picking off either of the L countries. They can have Poland as far as I’m concerned, given their newly-Nazi alignment.
    Though it could be that Putin can waltz right into the Ukraine now that 19.5% of Rosneft is safely in trump’s Barbados account, with a little taste for Congressional republicans and most of the U.S. National Security hierarchy, including the Clinton haters in the FBI, who don’t work for peanuts, you know.

  405. Well there is a certain symmetry to cozying up to Putin. While picking fights (gratuitously) with our closest allies.
    Unfortunate, but symmetrical. Could it really be just that Putin is exceptionally good at pandering to Trump’s ego?

  406. Well there is a certain symmetry to cozying up to Putin. While picking fights (gratuitously) with our closest allies.
    Unfortunate, but symmetrical. Could it really be just that Putin is exceptionally good at pandering to Trump’s ego?

  415. The dilemma of fence-sitter #nevertrump#sortatrump#ohwellTAXCUTS GOPers brings to mind an ancient term for such creatures.
    Mugwumps.
    Sitting on the fence, mug on one side, wump on the other.

  416. The dilemma of fence-sitter #nevertrump#sortatrump#ohwellTAXCUTS GOPers brings to mind an ancient term for such creatures.
    Mugwumps.
    Sitting on the fence, mug on one side, wump on the other.

  421. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/milo-yiannopoulos-event-cancelled-trump-berkeley
    For the record, I agree with trump that yiannopoulos should be permitted to speak at Berkeley, but I also heartily concur with the NRA and other domestic murderers that attendees at his speech on a college campus should be permitted to openly carry big clip automatic weaponry into the event and additionally should be accorded priority seating in the first three rows directly in front of the speaker.
    Those marksman with a predilection for viewing their enemies through high magnification gun scopes may sit in the balcony.
    In fact, for all future public events in the United States featuring republicans of any stripe, I believe priority ticketing should be accorded to the heavily armed, with the best seats going to those carrying the heaviest caliber weapons.
    Just so with this coward:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/peter-roskam-cancels-obamacare-meeting
    Democratic politicians in 2010 and in other political years did not flee armed republicans hovering around their public events, but a mere television camera has this republican slime reaching for his flak jacket.
    Let freedom reign.

  422. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/milo-yiannopoulos-event-cancelled-trump-berkeley
    For the record, I agree with trump that yiannopoulos should be permitted to speak at Berkeley, but I also heartily concur with the NRA and other domestic murderers that attendees at his speech on a college campus should be permitted to openly carry big clip automatic weaponry into the event and additionally should be accorded priority seating in the first three rows directly in front of the speaker.
    Those marksman with a predilection for viewing their enemies through high magnification gun scopes may sit in the balcony.
    In fact, for all future public events in the United States featuring republicans of any stripe, I believe priority ticketing should be accorded to the heavily armed, with the best seats going to those carrying the heaviest caliber weapons.
    Just so with this coward:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/peter-roskam-cancels-obamacare-meeting
    Democratic politicians in 2010 and in other political years did not flee armed republicans hovering around their public events, but a mere television camera has this republican slime reaching for his flak jacket.
    Let freedom reign.

  425. Thanks to the Count for the aggregation. No snark. It’s all good reading I would never find on my own.

  426. Thanks to the Count for the aggregation. No snark. It’s all good reading I would never find on my own.

  427. For the record, I agree with trump that yiannopoulos should be permitted to speak at Berkeley
    I do too and thanks for this–it’s a nice opening to make a couple of broader points. First, simply saying Milo ought to have been allowed to speak and leaving it at that is the same kind of fence sitting that seems to be such a thing on the left. Where is the left’s condemnation of the violence at Berkeley, the SJW Red Guard twitter mobs and thought police, the routine dis-invitation of right wing speakers on campus in the face of left wing protests and the actual violence in the name of resisting Trump?
    If Bannon’s words are incitement, then what of BLM’s words and the spike in police assassinations? Or does only right wing rhetoric incite? Feel free to parse the differences, but that level of line drawing makes sense only on the committed, progressive left. The majority you need to actually and effectively resist Trump isn’t going to buy that double standard and isn’t going to want to associate with people who espouse it.
    As I was driving in this morning, it occurred to me that, if the DT really needs to either go or to be severely curtailed, a guy like Bannon is exactly what is needed. You need more excess, not less. In the meantime, blowing up every time anything happens makes people sound either like Chicken Little or the Boy Who Cried Wolf. It’s a given that Gorsuch’s nomination will be opposed. However, acting like he is the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler is foolish. He was unanimously approved by the Senate for the 10th Court of Appeals–what happened between then and now?
    As for his borrowing Kissinger’s paraphrase of the Marine’s unofficial motto, which was plainly intended as humor, that too was plainly intended as humor. Ditto the thing Cleek found. If resistance is what’s needed, consider resisting effectively.
    McKinney out.

  428. For the record, I agree with trump that yiannopoulos should be permitted to speak at Berkeley
    I do too and thanks for this–it’s a nice opening to make a couple of broader points. First, simply saying Milo ought to have been allowed to speak and leaving it at that is the same kind of fence sitting that seems to be such a thing on the left. Where is the left’s condemnation of the violence at Berkeley, the SJW Red Guard twitter mobs and thought police, the routine dis-invitation of right wing speakers on campus in the face of left wing protests and the actual violence in the name of resisting Trump?
    If Bannon’s words are incitement, then what of BLM’s words and the spike in police assassinations? Or does only right wing rhetoric incite? Feel free to parse the differences, but that level of line drawing makes sense only on the committed, progressive left. The majority you need to actually and effectively resist Trump isn’t going to buy that double standard and isn’t going to want to associate with people who espouse it.
    As I was driving in this morning, it occurred to me that, if the DT really needs to either go or to be severely curtailed, a guy like Bannon is exactly what is needed. You need more excess, not less. In the meantime, blowing up every time anything happens makes people sound either like Chicken Little or the Boy Who Cried Wolf. It’s a given that Gorsuch’s nomination will be opposed. However, acting like he is the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler is foolish. He was unanimously approved by the Senate for the 10th Court of Appeals–what happened between then and now?
    As for his borrowing Kissinger’s paraphrase of the Marine’s unofficial motto, which was plainly intended as humor, that too was plainly intended as humor. Ditto the thing Cleek found. If resistance is what’s needed, consider resisting effectively.
    McKinney out.

  429. Meanwhile, this is how a reporter asking a legitimate question gets handled by Marine le Pen’s people. Coming soon, to a press conference near you.
    https://twitter.com/Qofficiel/status/826870420032933891
    OT: Snarki, I finally got around to reading Redshirts. Have been sick non-stop for about two months (flues, colds, eye stuff), had to take semi-emergency day trip to see docs in London yesterday and wanted something light to read on the train. What an utter pleasure! Thank you for the recommendation.

  430. Meanwhile, this is how a reporter asking a legitimate question gets handled by Marine le Pen’s people. Coming soon, to a press conference near you.
    https://twitter.com/Qofficiel/status/826870420032933891
    OT: Snarki, I finally got around to reading Redshirts. Have been sick non-stop for about two months (flues, colds, eye stuff), had to take semi-emergency day trip to see docs in London yesterday and wanted something light to read on the train. What an utter pleasure! Thank you for the recommendation.

  431. seems to be such a thing on the left.
    and… this is where I tune out on any McK post.
    You need more excess, not less.
    It’s probably on the menu.
    Good times ahead, y’all.

  432. seems to be such a thing on the left.
    and… this is where I tune out on any McK post.
    You need more excess, not less.
    It’s probably on the menu.
    Good times ahead, y’all.

  433. The line that Gorsuch quoted from Kissinger was in turn repurposed over the previous two centuries.
    Quotes.com (IIRC) attributes the earliest sightings from some dude during the reign of Louis XVI.
    Plagarists, all the way down
    “[Gorsuch] was unanimously approved by the Senate for the 10th Court of Appeals–what happened between then and now?”
    Wasn’t Garland similarly subject so such prior attribution, before getting stonewalled without even a single hearing for most of a year? I think that answers your “what happened” question.

  434. The line that Gorsuch quoted from Kissinger was in turn repurposed over the previous two centuries.
    Quotes.com (IIRC) attributes the earliest sightings from some dude during the reign of Louis XVI.
    Plagarists, all the way down
    “[Gorsuch] was unanimously approved by the Senate for the 10th Court of Appeals–what happened between then and now?”
    Wasn’t Garland similarly subject so such prior attribution, before getting stonewalled without even a single hearing for most of a year? I think that answers your “what happened” question.

  437. First, simply saying Milo ought to have been allowed to speak and leaving it at that is the same kind of fence sitting that seems to be such a thing on the left.
    How about this? No, he shouldn’t have. Or at least not on the basis of free speech, qua the First Amendment. He’s not entitled to any and all forums.
    Aside from that, this doesn’t look to be so much a prohibition as an evacuation, in an effort to prevent cranial trauma or some such.
    An another point (of straw), for the record, I condemn any incitement of violence against the police, though I’m not sure that’s the main thrust of BLM. In fact, their leadership officially condemns violence against police as well as violent protest. Yeah, admittedly some jerks at BLM protests have said some dumb sh*t on occasion.
    Signed,
    The Left

  438. First, simply saying Milo ought to have been allowed to speak and leaving it at that is the same kind of fence sitting that seems to be such a thing on the left.
    How about this? No, he shouldn’t have. Or at least not on the basis of free speech, qua the First Amendment. He’s not entitled to any and all forums.
    Aside from that, this doesn’t look to be so much a prohibition as an evacuation, in an effort to prevent cranial trauma or some such.
    An another point (of straw), for the record, I condemn any incitement of violence against the police, though I’m not sure that’s the main thrust of BLM. In fact, their leadership officially condemns violence against police as well as violent protest. Yeah, admittedly some jerks at BLM protests have said some dumb sh*t on occasion.
    Signed,
    The Left

  441. Anybody want to hear my list of “where was the outrage on the right when….” rants?
    Didn’t think so.
    My offer to conservatives is that I won’t assume “the right” is complicit in all the BS that happens at neo-Nazi alt/right conclaves if they don’t assume that “the left” is complicit in all of the BS that happens at UC Berkeley and Oberlin.
    Yiannopolis is a skeevy little punk-ass troublemaker who makes his living selling his notoriety as a skeevy little punk-ass troublemaker. He incites harassment toward other people, then expresses his surprise and alarm when they are harassed.
    He didn’t know the gun was loaded, your honor.
    I’m surprised his parents don’t throw firebombs at him when he comes home for holiday dinner.
    Also for the record, the biggest mistake the Black Lives Matter folks ever made was in choosing their name. They should have called themselves “Stop Shooting Us You Freaking Racist Bastards”. It would have made their point and purpose much easier for folks to grasp.
    Have a good day.

  442. Anybody want to hear my list of “where was the outrage on the right when….” rants?
    Didn’t think so.
    My offer to conservatives is that I won’t assume “the right” is complicit in all the BS that happens at neo-Nazi alt/right conclaves if they don’t assume that “the left” is complicit in all of the BS that happens at UC Berkeley and Oberlin.
    Yiannopolis is a skeevy little punk-ass troublemaker who makes his living selling his notoriety as a skeevy little punk-ass troublemaker. He incites harassment toward other people, then expresses his surprise and alarm when they are harassed.
    He didn’t know the gun was loaded, your honor.
    I’m surprised his parents don’t throw firebombs at him when he comes home for holiday dinner.
    Also for the record, the biggest mistake the Black Lives Matter folks ever made was in choosing their name. They should have called themselves “Stop Shooting Us You Freaking Racist Bastards”. It would have made their point and purpose much easier for folks to grasp.
    Have a good day.

  443. If resistance is what’s needed, consider resisting effectively.
    Well, no-one can argue with that.
    The violence at Berkeley (have only had a cursory glance, but saw “Kill Trump” signs, among other things) seems very unwise, yes. Bad behaviour, too. But it seems nobody has been killed, or even hurt. I too think Yannopoulos should have been allowed to speak, but he is a poisonous reptile and a Breitbart favourite, and the students can see their country being taken over by authoritarian demagogues, so who’s really the bad guy here? Did you read David Frum’s piece on How to Build an Autocracy, McKinney? Is he “the left” too, even to non-Tea Partyers like yourself?
    As for: SJW Red Guard twitter mobs and thought police, one would think you had never heard of the astonishing amount of truly terrible torrents of abuse meted out to any women, jews, blacks and anybody else in public life that sticks their heads above the parapet. Who do you think is meting out this abuse McKinney?
    And comparing Bannaon with Black Lives Matter is very strange. I know you deny the concept of White Male Privilege, but do you seriously deny that large numbers of unarmed black people have been killed by the police over the years, and that the police have rarely paid for it in any way? If you don’t deny it, what do you think that does to a people?
    You are probably more or less right on the Gorsuch stuff, particularly when you say He was unanimously approved by the Senate for the 10th Court of Appeals–what happened between then and now?. Sure the Fascist Society was a joke, and the Kissinger quote, but they’re revealing nonetheless. But what happened between now and then was that a perfectly reasonable middle-of-the-road SCOTUS nominee was kicked into the long grass because of kneejerk rightwing opposition to giving the Obama administration what every Congress has given to every President since time immemorial. They didn’t even have a confirmation hearing. Do you think that was right and proper?
    But anyway, on to lefty fence-sitting. What about you?
    if the DT really needs to either go or to be severely curtailed
    if resistance is what’s needed
    Well, what about it? Does he need to go or be severely curtailed? Is resistance what’s needed?

  444. If resistance is what’s needed, consider resisting effectively.
    Well, no-one can argue with that.
    The violence at Berkeley (have only had a cursory glance, but saw “Kill Trump” signs, among other things) seems very unwise, yes. Bad behaviour, too. But it seems nobody has been killed, or even hurt. I too think Yannopoulos should have been allowed to speak, but he is a poisonous reptile and a Breitbart favourite, and the students can see their country being taken over by authoritarian demagogues, so who’s really the bad guy here? Did you read David Frum’s piece on How to Build an Autocracy, McKinney? Is he “the left” too, even to non-Tea Partyers like yourself?
    As for: SJW Red Guard twitter mobs and thought police, one would think you had never heard of the astonishing amount of truly terrible torrents of abuse meted out to any women, jews, blacks and anybody else in public life that sticks their heads above the parapet. Who do you think is meting out this abuse McKinney?
    And comparing Bannaon with Black Lives Matter is very strange. I know you deny the concept of White Male Privilege, but do you seriously deny that large numbers of unarmed black people have been killed by the police over the years, and that the police have rarely paid for it in any way? If you don’t deny it, what do you think that does to a people?
    You are probably more or less right on the Gorsuch stuff, particularly when you say He was unanimously approved by the Senate for the 10th Court of Appeals–what happened between then and now?. Sure the Fascist Society was a joke, and the Kissinger quote, but they’re revealing nonetheless. But what happened between now and then was that a perfectly reasonable middle-of-the-road SCOTUS nominee was kicked into the long grass because of kneejerk rightwing opposition to giving the Obama administration what every Congress has given to every President since time immemorial. They didn’t even have a confirmation hearing. Do you think that was right and proper?
    But anyway, on to lefty fence-sitting. What about you?
    if the DT really needs to either go or to be severely curtailed
    if resistance is what’s needed
    Well, what about it? Does he need to go or be severely curtailed? Is resistance what’s needed?

  445. They didn’t even have a confirmation hearing. Do you think that was right and proper?
    Where was the outrage??? (on the right…) So sad.

  446. They didn’t even have a confirmation hearing. Do you think that was right and proper?
    Where was the outrage??? (on the right…) So sad.

  447. This article argues (rightly, I think) that Gorsuch will get approved, but also that there is absolutely no reason why the Democrats ought to make the process easy.
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/02/the_democrats_can_t_block_neil_gorsuch_here_s_what_they_can_do.html
    Republican calls for a postelection reboot should not obscure the fact that last October, Ted Cruz, John McCain, and Richard Burr were pledging to hold the vacant seat open for four years in the event of a Hillary Clinton win. That was their commitment…

  448. This article argues (rightly, I think) that Gorsuch will get approved, but also that there is absolutely no reason why the Democrats ought to make the process easy.
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/02/the_democrats_can_t_block_neil_gorsuch_here_s_what_they_can_do.html
    Republican calls for a postelection reboot should not obscure the fact that last October, Ted Cruz, John McCain, and Richard Burr were pledging to hold the vacant seat open for four years in the event of a Hillary Clinton win. That was their commitment…

  451. seems to be such a thing on the left.
    One of the things that the far** right and far left have in common is this. Members of both seem very strongly convinced that their views are so weak that they could not survive exposure to facts, or even ideas, which run counter.
    Pity that their views seem to be more resilient than that in practice. On those rare occasions when conflicting information elbows its way into their consciousness.
    ** Define “far” however you like. But symmetrically.

  452. seems to be such a thing on the left.
    One of the things that the far** right and far left have in common is this. Members of both seem very strongly convinced that their views are so weak that they could not survive exposure to facts, or even ideas, which run counter.
    Pity that their views seem to be more resilient than that in practice. On those rare occasions when conflicting information elbows its way into their consciousness.
    ** Define “far” however you like. But symmetrically.

  453. I have to say this, regarding cleek’s note about Gorsuch’s activities in high school. Lots of us do really stupid and juvenile stuff in high school. Most of us grow up and learn better. (OK, Ryan still seems infatuated with his high school enthusiasm for Ayn Rand. But most.) Holding something like that against the man mostly seems to say “We can’t find anything substantive.”
    Which almost certainly wasn’t the intent of the post. But that’s what comes thru.

  454. I have to say this, regarding cleek’s note about Gorsuch’s activities in high school. Lots of us do really stupid and juvenile stuff in high school. Most of us grow up and learn better. (OK, Ryan still seems infatuated with his high school enthusiasm for Ayn Rand. But most.) Holding something like that against the man mostly seems to say “We can’t find anything substantive.”
    Which almost certainly wasn’t the intent of the post. But that’s what comes thru.

  455. I too think Yannopoulos should have been allowed to speak, but he is a poisonous reptile and a Breitbart favourite, and the students can see their country being taken over by authoritarian demagogues, so who’s really the bad guy here? Did you read David Frum’s piece on How to Build an Autocracy, McKinney? Is he “the left” too, even to non-Tea Partyers like yourself?
    Yes, he is a reptile, no argument there. The point is that the echo chamber here wallows in right wing extremism while ignoring the same extremism on the left that is particularly endemic at the college level. Conservative speakers are routinely protested off of campus and this has been going for decades with virtually no push back from the elder left. HSH is ok with Y being shut down. How do you explain that? He’s an asshole and therefore can legitimately be forced off campus not only by threats of violence but by actual violence?
    If you want allies in dealing with Trump, this is not the way to get there.
    Well, what about it? Does he need to go or be severely curtailed? Is resistance what’s needed?
    If DT, through consistent arrogance, incompetence, etc, sufficiently rises to the level of needing to be removed via impeachment or the 25th A, that will become apparent over time. The left and much of the MSM has been in hyperbolic overdrive since the first Wednesday in November, nonstop, mindful only of DT’s shortcomings and forgiving of it’s own in opposition.
    Finally, if you expect me to defend Republican hypocrisy, as in Nigel’s reminder, I won’t. I don’t come here to participate in the echo chamber, I come here to point out issues and engage on those issues. Whether my views are correct or not depends on the substance and merits of the rejoinder.
    Haranguing DT and the vile Republican establishment for various and sundry violations of civilized norms is all well and good if your own house is in order or if you are consistent in applying your rules for the vile Right to yourselves. Otherwise, it’s just more partisan BS.
    The most useful piece I’ve seen here or anywhere else was LJ’s link to the New Yorker. That writer recognized that there will always be disagreement between left and right on almost every issue. His point was that, up until the DT, there were recognized limits and restraints, a recognized template for political discourse, all of which is now at risk. Gorsuch is not a conservative outlier. He is to the right what Obama’s nominee’s were to the left. Big deal. That’s what happens when someone wins the presidency. Treating Gorsuch as if he is bundled with Bannon is ridiculous to an outsider. It shows a complete lack of nuance, of a capacity to draw meaningful distinction.
    The DT will do conventionally conservative things and he will do unconventionally outrageous things. Lumping the two together defeats the larger purpose of addressing the unconventionally outrageous piece, unless the view is that anyone on the right is indistinguishable from DT, in which case our discussion just got a lot shorter.

  456. I too think Yannopoulos should have been allowed to speak, but he is a poisonous reptile and a Breitbart favourite, and the students can see their country being taken over by authoritarian demagogues, so who’s really the bad guy here? Did you read David Frum’s piece on How to Build an Autocracy, McKinney? Is he “the left” too, even to non-Tea Partyers like yourself?
    Yes, he is a reptile, no argument there. The point is that the echo chamber here wallows in right wing extremism while ignoring the same extremism on the left that is particularly endemic at the college level. Conservative speakers are routinely protested off of campus and this has been going for decades with virtually no push back from the elder left. HSH is ok with Y being shut down. How do you explain that? He’s an asshole and therefore can legitimately be forced off campus not only by threats of violence but by actual violence?
    If you want allies in dealing with Trump, this is not the way to get there.
    Well, what about it? Does he need to go or be severely curtailed? Is resistance what’s needed?
    If DT, through consistent arrogance, incompetence, etc, sufficiently rises to the level of needing to be removed via impeachment or the 25th A, that will become apparent over time. The left and much of the MSM has been in hyperbolic overdrive since the first Wednesday in November, nonstop, mindful only of DT’s shortcomings and forgiving of it’s own in opposition.
    Finally, if you expect me to defend Republican hypocrisy, as in Nigel’s reminder, I won’t. I don’t come here to participate in the echo chamber, I come here to point out issues and engage on those issues. Whether my views are correct or not depends on the substance and merits of the rejoinder.
    Haranguing DT and the vile Republican establishment for various and sundry violations of civilized norms is all well and good if your own house is in order or if you are consistent in applying your rules for the vile Right to yourselves. Otherwise, it’s just more partisan BS.
    The most useful piece I’ve seen here or anywhere else was LJ’s link to the New Yorker. That writer recognized that there will always be disagreement between left and right on almost every issue. His point was that, up until the DT, there were recognized limits and restraints, a recognized template for political discourse, all of which is now at risk. Gorsuch is not a conservative outlier. He is to the right what Obama’s nominee’s were to the left. Big deal. That’s what happens when someone wins the presidency. Treating Gorsuch as if he is bundled with Bannon is ridiculous to an outsider. It shows a complete lack of nuance, of a capacity to draw meaningful distinction.
    The DT will do conventionally conservative things and he will do unconventionally outrageous things. Lumping the two together defeats the larger purpose of addressing the unconventionally outrageous piece, unless the view is that anyone on the right is indistinguishable from DT, in which case our discussion just got a lot shorter.

  457. He’s an asshole and therefore can legitimately be forced off campus not only by threats of violence but by actual violence?
    No, that’s not what I wrote, and you know it. I wrote that he doesn’t have a 1st Amendment right to speak on campus. I also wrote that the university didn’t prohibit him from speaking because he’s a reptile, but to protect him from violence. I never advocated violence.
    Knock it off.

  458. He’s an asshole and therefore can legitimately be forced off campus not only by threats of violence but by actual violence?
    No, that’s not what I wrote, and you know it. I wrote that he doesn’t have a 1st Amendment right to speak on campus. I also wrote that the university didn’t prohibit him from speaking because he’s a reptile, but to protect him from violence. I never advocated violence.
    Knock it off.

  459. Finally, if you expect me to defend Republican hypocrisy, as in Nigel’s reminder, I won’t
    Likewise, do not expect everyone here to either defend or condemn everything that anyone on “the left” does or says.
    Gorsuch is a thoroughly qualified candidate for the SCOTUS. If the (D)’s want to approve him, I’m fine with it. If they want to deny him their approval purely as payback for the exercise in sheer naked unprincipled power-grabbing that was the (R)’s treatment of Garland, I’m also fine with it.
    As far as “allies” go, my experience is that people think what they want to think. I doubt there is anything anybody “on the left” can think, do, or say that is going to make a significant dent among people who voted for Trump in 2016. The only thing that is likely to change their minds is if Trump’s time in office royally bites them on the ass. Which is not unlikely.
    If the actions and statements of DJT and his cabal aren’t enough on their own merits to rouse people to get off of their asses and do something to rein him in, there is bugger-all that I’m going to be able to do or say to persuade them.
    I don’t care if Milo Yiannapolis talks at Berkeley or not. I’m not sure Berkeley is obliged to give him a platform. My own preference is for people not to break stuff, and I don’t think the students at Berkeley do themselves any favors by breaking stuff or setting stuff on fire.
    IMO they should have let him come and then give him an empty house.
    But I am not a student at Berkeley, and they’re going to do whatever the hell they want to do. Just like all the right-wing knotheads are not going to be particularly interested in your opinion, and are going to do whatever they hell *they* want to do.
    I have no interest in lectures from you or anyone about what “people like me” need to do. In my view, “people like you” should have gotten off of your asses and done something to keep a freak like Trump out of the White House.
    Too late for that now.
    So if “people like me” aren’t going about things in a way that pleases you, so be it. Suck it up, buttercup. Isn’t that what all the kids say now?
    Get off your ass and do something to make things better. If you can’t do that, I don’t want your advice or comment.
    Thanks.

  460. Finally, if you expect me to defend Republican hypocrisy, as in Nigel’s reminder, I won’t
    Likewise, do not expect everyone here to either defend or condemn everything that anyone on “the left” does or says.
    Gorsuch is a thoroughly qualified candidate for the SCOTUS. If the (D)’s want to approve him, I’m fine with it. If they want to deny him their approval purely as payback for the exercise in sheer naked unprincipled power-grabbing that was the (R)’s treatment of Garland, I’m also fine with it.
    As far as “allies” go, my experience is that people think what they want to think. I doubt there is anything anybody “on the left” can think, do, or say that is going to make a significant dent among people who voted for Trump in 2016. The only thing that is likely to change their minds is if Trump’s time in office royally bites them on the ass. Which is not unlikely.
    If the actions and statements of DJT and his cabal aren’t enough on their own merits to rouse people to get off of their asses and do something to rein him in, there is bugger-all that I’m going to be able to do or say to persuade them.
    I don’t care if Milo Yiannapolis talks at Berkeley or not. I’m not sure Berkeley is obliged to give him a platform. My own preference is for people not to break stuff, and I don’t think the students at Berkeley do themselves any favors by breaking stuff or setting stuff on fire.
    IMO they should have let him come and then give him an empty house.
    But I am not a student at Berkeley, and they’re going to do whatever the hell they want to do. Just like all the right-wing knotheads are not going to be particularly interested in your opinion, and are going to do whatever they hell *they* want to do.
    I have no interest in lectures from you or anyone about what “people like me” need to do. In my view, “people like you” should have gotten off of your asses and done something to keep a freak like Trump out of the White House.
    Too late for that now.
    So if “people like me” aren’t going about things in a way that pleases you, so be it. Suck it up, buttercup. Isn’t that what all the kids say now?
    Get off your ass and do something to make things better. If you can’t do that, I don’t want your advice or comment.
    Thanks.

  461. And, frankly, if people want to peacefully protest (or petition) speakers off of their campuses, what the hell is wrong with that? To quote whoever said it, it’s good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.
    In some cases, you might say, from an academic/intellectual standpoint, it’s better to hear at least some people out, but it’s hardly some outrage that someone doesn’t get to speak in a sanctioned forum on some college campus. It’s not like being beaten, or shot, or thrown in jail. Let’s keep this sh*t in some kind of perspective.
    The case of the Yale professor (or whatever she was) and her husband being forced off campus, where they lived, and having to resign (I think) was a case you can reasonably get outraged over.
    But most of the time, I’m not going to get to worked up over college kids abusing their immense power over society.

  462. And, frankly, if people want to peacefully protest (or petition) speakers off of their campuses, what the hell is wrong with that? To quote whoever said it, it’s good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.
    In some cases, you might say, from an academic/intellectual standpoint, it’s better to hear at least some people out, but it’s hardly some outrage that someone doesn’t get to speak in a sanctioned forum on some college campus. It’s not like being beaten, or shot, or thrown in jail. Let’s keep this sh*t in some kind of perspective.
    The case of the Yale professor (or whatever she was) and her husband being forced off campus, where they lived, and having to resign (I think) was a case you can reasonably get outraged over.
    But most of the time, I’m not going to get to worked up over college kids abusing their immense power over society.

  463. What was it the Milo had to say that the Berkeley College Republicans particularly wanted to hear? What knowledge did he have to impart to Berkeley students that would improve their education?
    Quite frankly, I’d bet thousands of dollars that the BCRs invited Milo for the sole purpose of pissing of the liberals on campus and causing the freakout that ensued. Now they can play the powerless victim that they so often castigate those on the left for.
    In any event, as noted this sh1t has been going on on college campuses in California since Reagan was governor (and college republicans have been inviting bigots of all kinds to speak on campus for just as long for the same reason as above – to piss of the liberals). If it was going to cause a wholesale collapse of our institutions and repeals of the 1st amendment it would happened already.
    As it is, if that does come to pass, it’s going to happen because of Trump, someone none (I would guess) of those Berkeley students opposing Milo by whatever means voted for.

  464. What was it the Milo had to say that the Berkeley College Republicans particularly wanted to hear? What knowledge did he have to impart to Berkeley students that would improve their education?
    Quite frankly, I’d bet thousands of dollars that the BCRs invited Milo for the sole purpose of pissing of the liberals on campus and causing the freakout that ensued. Now they can play the powerless victim that they so often castigate those on the left for.
    In any event, as noted this sh1t has been going on on college campuses in California since Reagan was governor (and college republicans have been inviting bigots of all kinds to speak on campus for just as long for the same reason as above – to piss of the liberals). If it was going to cause a wholesale collapse of our institutions and repeals of the 1st amendment it would happened already.
    As it is, if that does come to pass, it’s going to happen because of Trump, someone none (I would guess) of those Berkeley students opposing Milo by whatever means voted for.

  465. I don’t think the students at Berkeley do themselves any favors by breaking stuff or setting stuff on fire.
    It puts me in mind of something I saw right there in Berkeley circa 1970. There was a demonstration which had turned into a riot. And one of the kids in my dorm was heading out to it. He wasn’t a particularly politically involved boy, so I asked him why he was going.
    “Because it’s exciting!” Simply that and nothing more. (Whether he actually got involved in breaking or burning, I don’t know. But he definitely helped swell the crowd.)
    I also was aware that, in the long-haired 1960s and 1970s, there were a lot of students protesting. But the tiny handful who were actively fomenting riots weren’t. They had shorter hair than I did (and I was in ROTC). In brief, they cared not at all about the cause de joir; they were all about forcing a revolution if they could.
    I wouldn’t be surprised (don’t know, I hasten to add, but wouldn’t be surprised) if we are seeing something similar here. Nothing builds up pressure, and empowers the far right (whichever you are after), like a student riot with damages. Which, if that’s what you want….

  466. I don’t think the students at Berkeley do themselves any favors by breaking stuff or setting stuff on fire.
    It puts me in mind of something I saw right there in Berkeley circa 1970. There was a demonstration which had turned into a riot. And one of the kids in my dorm was heading out to it. He wasn’t a particularly politically involved boy, so I asked him why he was going.
    “Because it’s exciting!” Simply that and nothing more. (Whether he actually got involved in breaking or burning, I don’t know. But he definitely helped swell the crowd.)
    I also was aware that, in the long-haired 1960s and 1970s, there were a lot of students protesting. But the tiny handful who were actively fomenting riots weren’t. They had shorter hair than I did (and I was in ROTC). In brief, they cared not at all about the cause de joir; they were all about forcing a revolution if they could.
    I wouldn’t be surprised (don’t know, I hasten to add, but wouldn’t be surprised) if we are seeing something similar here. Nothing builds up pressure, and empowers the far right (whichever you are after), like a student riot with damages. Which, if that’s what you want….

  467. Quite frankly, I’d bet thousands of dollars that the BCRs invited Milo for the sole purpose of pissing of the liberals on campus and causing the freakout that ensued. Now they can play the powerless victim that they so often castigate those on the left for.
    Provoking open-minded, tolerant liberals into a riot by inviting a controversial speaker who they certainly are under no obligation to hear? Open-minded, tolerant liberals rioting with the intent of preventing someone else from speaking?
    Yes, this is the Voice of Moderation.

  468. Quite frankly, I’d bet thousands of dollars that the BCRs invited Milo for the sole purpose of pissing of the liberals on campus and causing the freakout that ensued. Now they can play the powerless victim that they so often castigate those on the left for.
    Provoking open-minded, tolerant liberals into a riot by inviting a controversial speaker who they certainly are under no obligation to hear? Open-minded, tolerant liberals rioting with the intent of preventing someone else from speaking?
    Yes, this is the Voice of Moderation.

  471. Peaceful protests preceded the riot. Some number of masked radicals infiltrated the crowd and started the violence. No one is defending them.
    wj’s point is a more general one, not a defense of the masked rioters. And you, McKinney, generalized the discussion to decades of protests on college campuses. So there’s no moving of the goal posts on wj’s part.
    You seemed to object to the “extremism” of people protesting, without qualification as to it being violent, conservative speakers off of college campuses. So college kids protesting peacefully because they don’t like someone speaking on their campus is leftist extremism, and the elder left should be outraged over it. Correct?

  472. Peaceful protests preceded the riot. Some number of masked radicals infiltrated the crowd and started the violence. No one is defending them.
    wj’s point is a more general one, not a defense of the masked rioters. And you, McKinney, generalized the discussion to decades of protests on college campuses. So there’s no moving of the goal posts on wj’s part.
    You seemed to object to the “extremism” of people protesting, without qualification as to it being violent, conservative speakers off of college campuses. So college kids protesting peacefully because they don’t like someone speaking on their campus is leftist extremism, and the elder left should be outraged over it. Correct?

  473. The zinger on the radio this morning: Trump suggests that we pray for Arnold, who isn’t doing a great job on The Apprentice.
    In which response, Arnold suggests to Trump that they change jobs. That way The Apprentice will do well . . . and with him inn Trump’s current job, people can sleep easily again.
    Having seen Arnold in action as Governor of California, I have to say that it’s a pity he isn’t actually eligible. He actually knows how to do the job.

  474. The zinger on the radio this morning: Trump suggests that we pray for Arnold, who isn’t doing a great job on The Apprentice.
    In which response, Arnold suggests to Trump that they change jobs. That way The Apprentice will do well . . . and with him inn Trump’s current job, people can sleep easily again.
    Having seen Arnold in action as Governor of California, I have to say that it’s a pity he isn’t actually eligible. He actually knows how to do the job.

  475. (1)Where is the left’s condemnation of the violence at Berkeley, the SJW Red Guard twitter mobs and thought police, the routine dis-invitation of right wing speakers on campus in the face of left wing protests and the actual violence in the name of resisting Trump?
    —
    (2)The point is that the echo chamber here wallows in right wing extremism while ignoring the same extremism on the left that is particularly endemic at the college level
    —
    (3)Finally, if you expect me to defend Republican hypocrisy, as in Nigel’s reminder, I won’t. I don’t come here to participate in the echo chamber, I come here to point out issues and engage on those issues.
    You address us (or most of us) as “the left”, and excoriate our failure to condemn these things (1). But I, for example, and I’m guessing many others here, have long made it clear that we don’t agree with “no-platforming”, twitter hate mobs of any description etc etc. The Count, and I, said Yiannopoulos should have been able to speak, and you called that fence-sitting. I don’t have time to go back over the years and prove that most if not all of the lefties here don’t fit your caricature of a “SJW”. I do confess that some years ago, when no-platforming first appeared, I briefly thought “Yes, I guess it makes sense to stop that hateful person broadcasting their hateful views, and proselytising”, but it didn’t take long before I realised that this was certainly a way to narrow young minds, and that what was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander, and I must have made that clear here over the years. If you haven’t seen explicit condemnation from the lefties here of lefty twitter mobs, you’re acting like Donald did when nobody explicitly (or sufficiently) condemned Saudi Arabia (and the UK) for Yemen, and he assumed we supported it or didn’t care.
    (2) The “echo chamber here” has given the proper left plenty of stick (see discussions with NV, bobbyp and Donald passim). But it is true that some concepts you regard as SJW extremism (e.g. white male privilege, misogyny playing a greater or lesser role in HRC’s defeat etc) most of us actually believe have a considerable basis in reality. We base this on our personal experience, sure, but also numerous studies. You, in discussions I have no particular wish to reprise, usually rebut them with your experience in your no doubt excellently and properly run legal practice.
    (3) I am glad, and not surprised, that you make no attempt to defend Republican hypocrisy. It is indefensible, and you have informed us previously that you are not a Republican in any case. But we are criticising, and noting appalling developments in, the most dangerous administration the US has probably ever had, a danger to your country and to the world. It is fine (and I am not being sarcastic) that you counsel us about convincing people who may not be our natural allies (if we can be categorised), and who may even have voted for Trump. But I repeat, on a day Trump hung up on the Prime Minister of Australia and threatened the President of Mexico, you seem yourself to be sitting on the fence.

  476. (1)Where is the left’s condemnation of the violence at Berkeley, the SJW Red Guard twitter mobs and thought police, the routine dis-invitation of right wing speakers on campus in the face of left wing protests and the actual violence in the name of resisting Trump?
    —
    (2)The point is that the echo chamber here wallows in right wing extremism while ignoring the same extremism on the left that is particularly endemic at the college level
    —
    (3)Finally, if you expect me to defend Republican hypocrisy, as in Nigel’s reminder, I won’t. I don’t come here to participate in the echo chamber, I come here to point out issues and engage on those issues.
    You address us (or most of us) as “the left”, and excoriate our failure to condemn these things (1). But I, for example, and I’m guessing many others here, have long made it clear that we don’t agree with “no-platforming”, twitter hate mobs of any description etc etc. The Count, and I, said Yiannopoulos should have been able to speak, and you called that fence-sitting. I don’t have time to go back over the years and prove that most if not all of the lefties here don’t fit your caricature of a “SJW”. I do confess that some years ago, when no-platforming first appeared, I briefly thought “Yes, I guess it makes sense to stop that hateful person broadcasting their hateful views, and proselytising”, but it didn’t take long before I realised that this was certainly a way to narrow young minds, and that what was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander, and I must have made that clear here over the years. If you haven’t seen explicit condemnation from the lefties here of lefty twitter mobs, you’re acting like Donald did when nobody explicitly (or sufficiently) condemned Saudi Arabia (and the UK) for Yemen, and he assumed we supported it or didn’t care.
    (2) The “echo chamber here” has given the proper left plenty of stick (see discussions with NV, bobbyp and Donald passim). But it is true that some concepts you regard as SJW extremism (e.g. white male privilege, misogyny playing a greater or lesser role in HRC’s defeat etc) most of us actually believe have a considerable basis in reality. We base this on our personal experience, sure, but also numerous studies. You, in discussions I have no particular wish to reprise, usually rebut them with your experience in your no doubt excellently and properly run legal practice.
    (3) I am glad, and not surprised, that you make no attempt to defend Republican hypocrisy. It is indefensible, and you have informed us previously that you are not a Republican in any case. But we are criticising, and noting appalling developments in, the most dangerous administration the US has probably ever had, a danger to your country and to the world. It is fine (and I am not being sarcastic) that you counsel us about convincing people who may not be our natural allies (if we can be categorised), and who may even have voted for Trump. But I repeat, on a day Trump hung up on the Prime Minister of Australia and threatened the President of Mexico, you seem yourself to be sitting on the fence.

  477. Maybe the ultra-leftist WaPo can help us figure this out.
    Excerpts:

    They turned out by the hundreds at Trump’s inauguration in January, vandalizing a Starbucks and a Bank of America and torching a limousine in downtown Washington.
    And on Wednesday, swarms of them shut down a planned speech by the conservative provocateur and Breitbart writer Milo Yiannopoulos at the University of California at Berkeley. Some 1,500 people had showed up to demonstrate against the event when a black-clad mob of a few dozen started breaking windows and setting fires at the campus.

    (…)

    But for demonstrators seeking to protest peacefully, “black bloc” activity is at best a distraction. The writer and activist Devon Douglas-Bowers has argued that “black bloc” protesters “fetishize” property destruction at the expense of nonviolent action, and the popular left-wing journalist Chris Hedges once called them the “cancer of the Occupy movement.” Beyond that, go to any large rally, and the calls for peace almost always drown out the calls for destruction, even if they don’t stop it.
    Law enforcement officials acknowledge the difference, too.
    “What they’re doing is they’re taking advantage of the legitimate protesters to destroy things and emphasize their anarchist roots,” David Gomez, a former senior FBI counterterrorism official in Seattle, told The Washington Post after the anti-Trump protests in November.

    So hundreds of these nuts show up at Trump’s inauguration, meanwhile hundreds of thousands protested peacefully the day of and soon after. Then dozens in Berkeley, as compared to 1500 peaceful protesters.
    These masked anarchists are not “the left.”

  478. Maybe the ultra-leftist WaPo can help us figure this out.
    Excerpts:

    They turned out by the hundreds at Trump’s inauguration in January, vandalizing a Starbucks and a Bank of America and torching a limousine in downtown Washington.
    And on Wednesday, swarms of them shut down a planned speech by the conservative provocateur and Breitbart writer Milo Yiannopoulos at the University of California at Berkeley. Some 1,500 people had showed up to demonstrate against the event when a black-clad mob of a few dozen started breaking windows and setting fires at the campus.

    (…)

    But for demonstrators seeking to protest peacefully, “black bloc” activity is at best a distraction. The writer and activist Devon Douglas-Bowers has argued that “black bloc” protesters “fetishize” property destruction at the expense of nonviolent action, and the popular left-wing journalist Chris Hedges once called them the “cancer of the Occupy movement.” Beyond that, go to any large rally, and the calls for peace almost always drown out the calls for destruction, even if they don’t stop it.
    Law enforcement officials acknowledge the difference, too.
    “What they’re doing is they’re taking advantage of the legitimate protesters to destroy things and emphasize their anarchist roots,” David Gomez, a former senior FBI counterterrorism official in Seattle, told The Washington Post after the anti-Trump protests in November.

    So hundreds of these nuts show up at Trump’s inauguration, meanwhile hundreds of thousands protested peacefully the day of and soon after. Then dozens in Berkeley, as compared to 1500 peaceful protesters.
    These masked anarchists are not “the left.”

  479. Provoking open-minded, tolerant liberals into a riot by inviting a controversial speaker who they certainly are under no obligation to hear? Open-minded, tolerant liberals rioting with the intent of preventing someone else from speaking?
    As HSH just nicely pointed out, the open-minded, tolerant liberals weren’t the ones rioting. I’ll cop to mixing them up with the anarchists, as you’re doing. The presence of Milo on campus doesn’t justify violence or destruction of property.
    But let’s separate the two, I bet 95%+ of the BCRs are not the least bit disappointed in what happened with Milo. Quite the opposite in fact, I bet they are thrilled.
    Do you disagree? And if you agree, is that the appropriate reaction of the BCRs?
    This is the general approach of College Republicans on leftish campuses. Because they feel marginalized, excluded, and singled out for ridicule, (non-physical) abuse and discrimination – they lash out by being giant douchebag assholes by inviting “controversial” people like Milo to speak. But they don’t do it because they want to hear what people like him have to say.
    Honestly, you’d think being part of a marginalized and excluded group during college would have given them some empathy later in life for similar groups in society. Instead, they’re still a bunch of dicks.

  480. Provoking open-minded, tolerant liberals into a riot by inviting a controversial speaker who they certainly are under no obligation to hear? Open-minded, tolerant liberals rioting with the intent of preventing someone else from speaking?
    As HSH just nicely pointed out, the open-minded, tolerant liberals weren’t the ones rioting. I’ll cop to mixing them up with the anarchists, as you’re doing. The presence of Milo on campus doesn’t justify violence or destruction of property.
    But let’s separate the two, I bet 95%+ of the BCRs are not the least bit disappointed in what happened with Milo. Quite the opposite in fact, I bet they are thrilled.
    Do you disagree? And if you agree, is that the appropriate reaction of the BCRs?
    This is the general approach of College Republicans on leftish campuses. Because they feel marginalized, excluded, and singled out for ridicule, (non-physical) abuse and discrimination – they lash out by being giant douchebag assholes by inviting “controversial” people like Milo to speak. But they don’t do it because they want to hear what people like him have to say.
    Honestly, you’d think being part of a marginalized and excluded group during college would have given them some empathy later in life for similar groups in society. Instead, they’re still a bunch of dicks.

  481. The Count, and I, said Yiannopoulos should have been able to speak, and you called that fence-sitting.
    If you look at this thread, you see everything from defending “no platforming” to blaming the victim to a rather lame “they shouldn’t do that and I don’t agree with it”, none of which–except the lame part–would have even come up if Moi had not poked an eye or two. And defensive? My goodness.
    And all the while going hyper ballistic over any and everything emanating from the right. And getting pissy when called out. And demanding that everyone get on board with the ‘resist’ movement as defined by the left. That isn’t going to happen.
    Conservatives who dislike DT aren’t going to turn progressive because DT apes conservatism from time to time. I hope Gorsuch gets affirmed. I think going back to high school and college for a hit piece is chickenshit with a capital C. I’m fine with the pipeline deals getting done. I’m fine generally with regulatory cut back, but I’m not fine with the judgment of the ultimate knife wielder. I can defend my positions on the merits. They are not extreme even if they don’t resonate here.
    I think pissing off our neighbors and allies is so incredibly stupid I can’t even find a name for it. But whatever it is, there is nothing in the history of mainstream conservatism that is even remotely comparable to that and, for example, the telephonic reaming of the Aussie PM. Jesus. If you want to get pissy about the DT’s stability, that’s an example I’d be touting.
    And yes, I do refer to this sight as the left. And I do refer generically to the left. It is quite left’ish and there is a left. Within the last week or two, there was even a consensus among the lefty regulars to this effect. What’s the big deal–that you’re lefties? I’m a righty. Calling me conservative isn’t a problem for me. Or a right winger or what have you. And almost everyone here routinely refers to the right or conservatives or Republicans. I just don’t get the angst here sometimes.

  482. The Count, and I, said Yiannopoulos should have been able to speak, and you called that fence-sitting.
    If you look at this thread, you see everything from defending “no platforming” to blaming the victim to a rather lame “they shouldn’t do that and I don’t agree with it”, none of which–except the lame part–would have even come up if Moi had not poked an eye or two. And defensive? My goodness.
    And all the while going hyper ballistic over any and everything emanating from the right. And getting pissy when called out. And demanding that everyone get on board with the ‘resist’ movement as defined by the left. That isn’t going to happen.
    Conservatives who dislike DT aren’t going to turn progressive because DT apes conservatism from time to time. I hope Gorsuch gets affirmed. I think going back to high school and college for a hit piece is chickenshit with a capital C. I’m fine with the pipeline deals getting done. I’m fine generally with regulatory cut back, but I’m not fine with the judgment of the ultimate knife wielder. I can defend my positions on the merits. They are not extreme even if they don’t resonate here.
    I think pissing off our neighbors and allies is so incredibly stupid I can’t even find a name for it. But whatever it is, there is nothing in the history of mainstream conservatism that is even remotely comparable to that and, for example, the telephonic reaming of the Aussie PM. Jesus. If you want to get pissy about the DT’s stability, that’s an example I’d be touting.
    And yes, I do refer to this sight as the left. And I do refer generically to the left. It is quite left’ish and there is a left. Within the last week or two, there was even a consensus among the lefty regulars to this effect. What’s the big deal–that you’re lefties? I’m a righty. Calling me conservative isn’t a problem for me. Or a right winger or what have you. And almost everyone here routinely refers to the right or conservatives or Republicans. I just don’t get the angst here sometimes.

  483. Yes, this is the Voice of Moderation.
    No, it’s the voice of a bunch of kids at Berkeley. Since when have kids at Berkeley been known for their moderation?
    To speak plainly, it’s pretty freaking rich for you to (a) call all of us – none of whom is actually a student at Berkeley – to task for being hypocrites for not LOUDLY DENOUNCING whatever the hell it is they are up to, and then (b) announce that you are by no means going to speak for or defend the hypocrisy of the right.
    You don’t want to be anybody’s monkey, you don’t get to ask anyone else to be your monkey.
    I don’t really give a crap what the kids at UC Berkeley are up to. Yiannopolis provokes strong reactions, it’s what he does for a living. If he and his sponsors can’t take the heat, they need to get out of the kitchen.
    Either way, it’s nothing to do with me, and I have nothing in particular to say about it.
    Just like you have nothing to say, and no interest in having anything to say, about whatever it was that Nigel dug up.
    Can I make it any clearer?
    Having seen Arnold in action as Governor of California, I have to say that it’s a pity he isn’t actually eligible. He actually knows how to do the job.
    I’d be fine with POTUS Arnold. I’m sure I’d disagree with a lot of his policy, however I’d be reasonably confident that he wasn’t going to just break stuff, and that he wasn’t going to be governing out of some kind of knee-jerk fealty to His Tribe.

  484. Yes, this is the Voice of Moderation.
    No, it’s the voice of a bunch of kids at Berkeley. Since when have kids at Berkeley been known for their moderation?
    To speak plainly, it’s pretty freaking rich for you to (a) call all of us – none of whom is actually a student at Berkeley – to task for being hypocrites for not LOUDLY DENOUNCING whatever the hell it is they are up to, and then (b) announce that you are by no means going to speak for or defend the hypocrisy of the right.
    You don’t want to be anybody’s monkey, you don’t get to ask anyone else to be your monkey.
    I don’t really give a crap what the kids at UC Berkeley are up to. Yiannopolis provokes strong reactions, it’s what he does for a living. If he and his sponsors can’t take the heat, they need to get out of the kitchen.
    Either way, it’s nothing to do with me, and I have nothing in particular to say about it.
    Just like you have nothing to say, and no interest in having anything to say, about whatever it was that Nigel dug up.
    Can I make it any clearer?
    Having seen Arnold in action as Governor of California, I have to say that it’s a pity he isn’t actually eligible. He actually knows how to do the job.
    I’d be fine with POTUS Arnold. I’m sure I’d disagree with a lot of his policy, however I’d be reasonably confident that he wasn’t going to just break stuff, and that he wasn’t going to be governing out of some kind of knee-jerk fealty to His Tribe.

  485. ….Open-minded, tolerant liberals rioting with the intent of preventing someone else from speaking?
    Similarly, cutting wages, de facto outlawing labor organizations, cutting food stamps, shredding the social safety net, curtailing public health care leading to economic immiseration and actual unnecessary deaths …none of this is violence?
    Right you folks on the right? Right?
    Liberty is only precious to you insofar as you can effectively, and through the use of state sanctioned force, withhold it from others.
    Own it.

  486. ….Open-minded, tolerant liberals rioting with the intent of preventing someone else from speaking?
    Similarly, cutting wages, de facto outlawing labor organizations, cutting food stamps, shredding the social safety net, curtailing public health care leading to economic immiseration and actual unnecessary deaths …none of this is violence?
    Right you folks on the right? Right?
    Liberty is only precious to you insofar as you can effectively, and through the use of state sanctioned force, withhold it from others.
    Own it.

  487. Honestly, you’d think being part of a marginalized and excluded group during college would have given them some empathy later in life for similar groups in society. Instead, they’re still a bunch of dicks.
    Just to be clear, some “conservatives” on college campuses behave that way. And make the rest of look bad the same way that the anarchist rioters do the left. I don’t have to imagine it, I was in Berkeley in the late 1960s (most people’s stereotype, though inaccurate, is close enough for this purpose) and I lived it. But most of us merely tried to provide a little, non-confrontational, alternative perspective. And managed not to come out of it without sympathy to the rest of humanity.
    Not saying that there are not douchbags out there. Just that it is not merely an oversimplification but an enablement of the same kind of folks (on the “left”) you decry when they purport to represent your philosophy.

  488. Honestly, you’d think being part of a marginalized and excluded group during college would have given them some empathy later in life for similar groups in society. Instead, they’re still a bunch of dicks.
    Just to be clear, some “conservatives” on college campuses behave that way. And make the rest of look bad the same way that the anarchist rioters do the left. I don’t have to imagine it, I was in Berkeley in the late 1960s (most people’s stereotype, though inaccurate, is close enough for this purpose) and I lived it. But most of us merely tried to provide a little, non-confrontational, alternative perspective. And managed not to come out of it without sympathy to the rest of humanity.
    Not saying that there are not douchbags out there. Just that it is not merely an oversimplification but an enablement of the same kind of folks (on the “left”) you decry when they purport to represent your philosophy.

  489. Also FWIW the black-bloc anarchist people are more or less a thing unto themselves. They attach themselves to other people’s public actions and demonstrations and generally FUBAR stuff up.
    Basically they are a general PITA.
    Some of them are more or less the modern version of punk squatters, some are rich kids sticking it to the man with daddy’s money. They have about the same relationship to “the left” as rootin-tootin’ Yosemite Sam wanna-be sovereign citizens have to “the right”.
    Know your lefties!!
    Hope that helps.

  490. Also FWIW the black-bloc anarchist people are more or less a thing unto themselves. They attach themselves to other people’s public actions and demonstrations and generally FUBAR stuff up.
    Basically they are a general PITA.
    Some of them are more or less the modern version of punk squatters, some are rich kids sticking it to the man with daddy’s money. They have about the same relationship to “the left” as rootin-tootin’ Yosemite Sam wanna-be sovereign citizens have to “the right”.
    Know your lefties!!
    Hope that helps.

  491. Since when have kids at Berkeley been known for their moderation?
    Glad you phrased that as “known for” vs “actually being”. Because the vast majority are moderate. And too busy studying to cavort in demonstrations and riots.
    Note also that, if you are actually moderate, your chances of getting much press time is tiny. “If it bleeds, it leads” applies to political demonstrations, too.

  492. Since when have kids at Berkeley been known for their moderation?
    Glad you phrased that as “known for” vs “actually being”. Because the vast majority are moderate. And too busy studying to cavort in demonstrations and riots.
    Note also that, if you are actually moderate, your chances of getting much press time is tiny. “If it bleeds, it leads” applies to political demonstrations, too.

  493. When I was in college, they eventually had to stop requiring bomb threat evacuations at finals time. Nobody could get anything done. In the end, they’d just announce that a bomb threat had been called in and give you the option of staying or not.
    And yay, student demonstrations! One demonstration was about a reduced allocation of toilet paper in the dorms. Which actually kind of makes sense, at least it’s a tangible and pragmatic issue. About tissue.
    One guy was convinced the CIA was after him. He put up big posters all around campus. He eventually had to leave school and go to a calm, quiet place for a while.
    A lot of Iranian students thought SAVAK was after them (this was pre-revolution). Many of them were right. No calm, quiet place for them.
    And so on.
    Colleges are not typical environments. The stuff that goes on in colleges is not always an accurate proxy of average adult life.

  494. When I was in college, they eventually had to stop requiring bomb threat evacuations at finals time. Nobody could get anything done. In the end, they’d just announce that a bomb threat had been called in and give you the option of staying or not.
    And yay, student demonstrations! One demonstration was about a reduced allocation of toilet paper in the dorms. Which actually kind of makes sense, at least it’s a tangible and pragmatic issue. About tissue.
    One guy was convinced the CIA was after him. He put up big posters all around campus. He eventually had to leave school and go to a calm, quiet place for a while.
    A lot of Iranian students thought SAVAK was after them (this was pre-revolution). Many of them were right. No calm, quiet place for them.
    And so on.
    Colleges are not typical environments. The stuff that goes on in colleges is not always an accurate proxy of average adult life.

  495. A Gorsuch quote from this article provides a little flavor of his judicial approach:
    “perhaps the great project of Justice Scalia’s career was to remind us of the differences between judges and legislators.”
    Scalia was an unprincipled conservative hack. One only has to watch him when he vociferously defended Bush v Gore in subsequent public forums to know this.
    Gorsuch appears to be a very smart and highly educated person (albeit somebody with a woefully undeveloped sense of humor). Therefore I can only conclude he is being, let us say, disingenuous.
    He does not belong on the Supreme Court. No current day Rethuglicans belong on the Supreme Court, or in Congress, or in the oval office.
    PS: The article is a good primer for Gorsuch’s other judicial opinions for those looking for a bit more meat to oppose this nomination.

  496. A Gorsuch quote from this article provides a little flavor of his judicial approach:
    “perhaps the great project of Justice Scalia’s career was to remind us of the differences between judges and legislators.”
    Scalia was an unprincipled conservative hack. One only has to watch him when he vociferously defended Bush v Gore in subsequent public forums to know this.
    Gorsuch appears to be a very smart and highly educated person (albeit somebody with a woefully undeveloped sense of humor). Therefore I can only conclude he is being, let us say, disingenuous.
    He does not belong on the Supreme Court. No current day Rethuglicans belong on the Supreme Court, or in Congress, or in the oval office.
    PS: The article is a good primer for Gorsuch’s other judicial opinions for those looking for a bit more meat to oppose this nomination.

  497. Another aspect of expressing outrage is that I find it most outrageous when people with enormous power wield it against those who don’t have it, which doesn’t appy here. I’m also more likely to speak out when there’s someone who is saying the opposite of what I think, which also doesn’t apply here, since everyone pretty much agrees these anarchists are a bunch of a$$holes. I probably won’t go on much about how water is wet unless someone tries to tell me it’s dry. That doesn’t mean I don’t think water is actually wet.

  498. Another aspect of expressing outrage is that I find it most outrageous when people with enormous power wield it against those who don’t have it, which doesn’t appy here. I’m also more likely to speak out when there’s someone who is saying the opposite of what I think, which also doesn’t apply here, since everyone pretty much agrees these anarchists are a bunch of a$$holes. I probably won’t go on much about how water is wet unless someone tries to tell me it’s dry. That doesn’t mean I don’t think water is actually wet.

  499. The “echo chamber here” has given the proper left plenty of stick (see discussions with NV, bobbyp and Donald passim).
    That smarts. 🙂

  500. The “echo chamber here” has given the proper left plenty of stick (see discussions with NV, bobbyp and Donald passim).
    That smarts. 🙂

  501. On the topic of overseas relations, Trump’s ambassador to the EU, on his appointment:
    “I had in a previous career a diplomatic post where I helped bring down the Soviet Union. So maybe there’s another union that needs a little taming….”

  502. On the topic of overseas relations, Trump’s ambassador to the EU, on his appointment:
    “I had in a previous career a diplomatic post where I helped bring down the Soviet Union. So maybe there’s another union that needs a little taming….”

  503. He does not belong on the Supreme Court.
    I confess he wasn’t my first choice (of the names I had seen floated).
    But it occurs to me to wonder. He’s been real strong on the Federal bureaucracy not exceeding what the legislature actually passed. So how long to you suppose it will be before Trump orders something off-the-wall and right NOW . . . and Gorsuch pushes back hard?
    Yes, any justice can change his stripes once on the bench. But this does seem like a long-standing theme of his.

  504. He does not belong on the Supreme Court.
    I confess he wasn’t my first choice (of the names I had seen floated).
    But it occurs to me to wonder. He’s been real strong on the Federal bureaucracy not exceeding what the legislature actually passed. So how long to you suppose it will be before Trump orders something off-the-wall and right NOW . . . and Gorsuch pushes back hard?
    Yes, any justice can change his stripes once on the bench. But this does seem like a long-standing theme of his.

  505. He’s been real strong on the Federal bureaucracy not exceeding what the legislature actually passed.
    There is a remedy for this. It is called “legislation”.
    Trump “ordering something” is not, in any way, akin to regulatory rule making which, I remind you, is typically within regulatory agency scope as per the legislation passed by the Congress and signed into law by the President.
    So if you have any substantive objections to Chevron I would say make them.
    That Gorsuch expresses disfavor with this ruling is just more evidence that he is a conservative hack, a degree from Oxford notwithstanding.
    The idea that he would “stand up to Trump” is on its face laughable–unless of course that action directly challenged in a really serious way conservative political interests.
    Thanks.

  506. He’s been real strong on the Federal bureaucracy not exceeding what the legislature actually passed.
    There is a remedy for this. It is called “legislation”.
    Trump “ordering something” is not, in any way, akin to regulatory rule making which, I remind you, is typically within regulatory agency scope as per the legislation passed by the Congress and signed into law by the President.
    So if you have any substantive objections to Chevron I would say make them.
    That Gorsuch expresses disfavor with this ruling is just more evidence that he is a conservative hack, a degree from Oxford notwithstanding.
    The idea that he would “stand up to Trump” is on its face laughable–unless of course that action directly challenged in a really serious way conservative political interests.
    Thanks.

  509. “If you haven’t seen explicit condemnation from the lefties here of lefty twitter mobs, you’re acting like Donald did when nobody explicitly (or sufficiently) condemned Saudi Arabia (and the UK) for Yemen, and he assumed we supported it or didn’t care.”
    There is a bit of a gap between lefty twitter mobs and helping Saudi Arabia bomb civilians (killing thousands) or create the conditions in which 1000 children die every week. For that reason the analogy sort of falls flat from my pov. I really wish you had left me out of this–I was happy to just lurk. But since you brought it up–
    I don’t read the minds of people here, except for the handful who came out on one side or the other on Yemen and people did come out on opposite sides. Saying that it was a justifiable policy because otherwise the Saudis would get help elsewhere is supporting the policy. But there is something deeply hypocritical about the reaction of the mainstream left in the US regarding Yemen. As any deluded far lefty would expect, we heard constantly about Syrian and Russian actions in Aleppo (which probably isn’t that different from what is being done in Mosul, btw) and almost nothing about Yemen except from a handful of commenters. I am speaking generally, not about this blog. (Nobody should give a crap about a few people at a blog.) The reason for this is obvious. Yemen was Obama’s policy. Many Democrats and a few Republicans in Congress opposed Obama’s policy, but it didn’t become a major cause because it was Obama who did it, so we couldn’t have our usual partisan divide where everyone lines up and calls the other party names. Trump shows every indication of continuing the same policy and possibly escalating it to a war with Iran–so long as he sticks to helping kill children in Yemen it will be more of the same and I don’t expect the widespread vocal liberal outrage about Trump’s policies to extend to include Yemen because it would muddy the waters. You can’t very well say Trump is a horrible person who supports a brutal authoritarian regime that commits massive war crimes and ignore the fact that in the case of Yemen he would just be following in Obama’s footsteps. Or rather, you can, but you have to specify that you mean the authoritarian regime in Russia and not the one in Saudi Arabia. Or rather, talk about Russia and never acknowledge that most of DC is in bed with the Saudis. One could make a good case that so far the worst thing that Trump has done is continue Obama’s policies in Yemen, though of course it’s only been a couple of weeks. He will have to start a new war to top it. He easily could, with Iran the most likely target.
    Anyway, back to lurking.

  510. “If you haven’t seen explicit condemnation from the lefties here of lefty twitter mobs, you’re acting like Donald did when nobody explicitly (or sufficiently) condemned Saudi Arabia (and the UK) for Yemen, and he assumed we supported it or didn’t care.”
    There is a bit of a gap between lefty twitter mobs and helping Saudi Arabia bomb civilians (killing thousands) or create the conditions in which 1000 children die every week. For that reason the analogy sort of falls flat from my pov. I really wish you had left me out of this–I was happy to just lurk. But since you brought it up–
    I don’t read the minds of people here, except for the handful who came out on one side or the other on Yemen and people did come out on opposite sides. Saying that it was a justifiable policy because otherwise the Saudis would get help elsewhere is supporting the policy. But there is something deeply hypocritical about the reaction of the mainstream left in the US regarding Yemen. As any deluded far lefty would expect, we heard constantly about Syrian and Russian actions in Aleppo (which probably isn’t that different from what is being done in Mosul, btw) and almost nothing about Yemen except from a handful of commenters. I am speaking generally, not about this blog. (Nobody should give a crap about a few people at a blog.) The reason for this is obvious. Yemen was Obama’s policy. Many Democrats and a few Republicans in Congress opposed Obama’s policy, but it didn’t become a major cause because it was Obama who did it, so we couldn’t have our usual partisan divide where everyone lines up and calls the other party names. Trump shows every indication of continuing the same policy and possibly escalating it to a war with Iran–so long as he sticks to helping kill children in Yemen it will be more of the same and I don’t expect the widespread vocal liberal outrage about Trump’s policies to extend to include Yemen because it would muddy the waters. You can’t very well say Trump is a horrible person who supports a brutal authoritarian regime that commits massive war crimes and ignore the fact that in the case of Yemen he would just be following in Obama’s footsteps. Or rather, you can, but you have to specify that you mean the authoritarian regime in Russia and not the one in Saudi Arabia. Or rather, talk about Russia and never acknowledge that most of DC is in bed with the Saudis. One could make a good case that so far the worst thing that Trump has done is continue Obama’s policies in Yemen, though of course it’s only been a couple of weeks. He will have to start a new war to top it. He easily could, with Iran the most likely target.
    Anyway, back to lurking.

  511. Donald, obviously I wasn’t comparing the issues, which are of course of hugely differing magnitude and type, I was just remarking that if you see no explicit condemnation of something here, you cannot just assume from this fact that people support it.

  512. Donald, obviously I wasn’t comparing the issues, which are of course of hugely differing magnitude and type, I was just remarking that if you see no explicit condemnation of something here, you cannot just assume from this fact that people support it.

  513. The Goresuch fight is going to be a difficult one, not least because while a dick (IMHO), he’s a well qualified and legally fluent partisan, as opposed to a nakedly political partisan.
    The New Yorker analyses the costs and benefits of using the filibuster:
    http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/democrats-rush-into-a-supreme-court-battle
    My own view, FWIW, is that they will have to evince very good reasons during his questioning for a filibuster, or the risks aren’t worthwhile.

  514. The Goresuch fight is going to be a difficult one, not least because while a dick (IMHO), he’s a well qualified and legally fluent partisan, as opposed to a nakedly political partisan.
    The New Yorker analyses the costs and benefits of using the filibuster:
    http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/democrats-rush-into-a-supreme-court-battle
    My own view, FWIW, is that they will have to evince very good reasons during his questioning for a filibuster, or the risks aren’t worthwhile.

  515. To speak plainly, it’s pretty freaking rich for you to (a) call all of us – none of whom is actually a student at Berkeley – to task for being hypocrites for not LOUDLY DENOUNCING whatever the hell it is they are up to, and then (b) announce that you are by no means going to speak for or defend the hypocrisy of the right.
    I’m not sure we are on the same page here. My point is simple: hyperbolic freaking out over any and everything that emanates from the right, and implying if not expressing, that right wing violence etc is either now a major problem or is soon to be without addressing similar issues associated with the left is a double standard and therefore undercuts the case. The Milo thing is handy because it happened yesterday.
    As for Republican hypocrisy, I acknowledge it, particularly when it comes to SCOTUS nominees, just as I acknowledge any number of issues with DT.
    The fact is, the left has historically, at the fringe and not-so-fringe been every bit as violent and intolerant as the right.
    This conversation began with my taking issues with Count’s criticism of fence sitters. If it’s fair for the Count to accuse those who aren’t sufficiently anti-DT of fence sitting, why isn’t turnabout fair play?
    But let’s separate the two, I bet 95%+ of the BCRs are not the least bit disappointed in what happened with Milo. Quite the opposite in fact, I bet they are thrilled.
    Do you disagree? And if you agree, is that the appropriate reaction of the BCRs?
    First, just because WaPo does a piece pinning the fun and games at Berkeley on those damned anarchists doesn’t make it the case. My sense is that running off unpopular, right of center speakers is a fairly standard feature at colleges these days. Here are two links, from each side of the fence:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-lukianoff/new-report-the-push-again_b_5417664.html
    https://www.thefire.org/disinvitation-season-report-2014/
    which confirm my sense. The trend toward illiberal liberalism on campus is long-standing and not diminishing. Nor is it limited to campuses these days. Speech codes, hate speech and the like, with definitions of what can and cannot be said emanating from from various academic nooks and crannies are not figmant’s of imagination and they are not benign.
    I’m not the only one who has called attention to these phenomena, and this has been going on for quite some time. It’s a left thing, not right. Due process, free speech, property rights, all are subject to involuntary ideological compromise.
    I discount the Count’s hyperbole by a factor of 10. The majority here take it as a given that right wing oppression is upon us and that only the left stands opposed to it. In fact, the left has its own forms of oppression, and they are real and have been with us for decades in one form or another. The obnoxious SJW movement is particularly galling, one cut below the Red Guard.

  516. To speak plainly, it’s pretty freaking rich for you to (a) call all of us – none of whom is actually a student at Berkeley – to task for being hypocrites for not LOUDLY DENOUNCING whatever the hell it is they are up to, and then (b) announce that you are by no means going to speak for or defend the hypocrisy of the right.
    I’m not sure we are on the same page here. My point is simple: hyperbolic freaking out over any and everything that emanates from the right, and implying if not expressing, that right wing violence etc is either now a major problem or is soon to be without addressing similar issues associated with the left is a double standard and therefore undercuts the case. The Milo thing is handy because it happened yesterday.
    As for Republican hypocrisy, I acknowledge it, particularly when it comes to SCOTUS nominees, just as I acknowledge any number of issues with DT.
    The fact is, the left has historically, at the fringe and not-so-fringe been every bit as violent and intolerant as the right.
    This conversation began with my taking issues with Count’s criticism of fence sitters. If it’s fair for the Count to accuse those who aren’t sufficiently anti-DT of fence sitting, why isn’t turnabout fair play?
    But let’s separate the two, I bet 95%+ of the BCRs are not the least bit disappointed in what happened with Milo. Quite the opposite in fact, I bet they are thrilled.
    Do you disagree? And if you agree, is that the appropriate reaction of the BCRs?
    First, just because WaPo does a piece pinning the fun and games at Berkeley on those damned anarchists doesn’t make it the case. My sense is that running off unpopular, right of center speakers is a fairly standard feature at colleges these days. Here are two links, from each side of the fence:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-lukianoff/new-report-the-push-again_b_5417664.html
    https://www.thefire.org/disinvitation-season-report-2014/
    which confirm my sense. The trend toward illiberal liberalism on campus is long-standing and not diminishing. Nor is it limited to campuses these days. Speech codes, hate speech and the like, with definitions of what can and cannot be said emanating from from various academic nooks and crannies are not figmant’s of imagination and they are not benign.
    I’m not the only one who has called attention to these phenomena, and this has been going on for quite some time. It’s a left thing, not right. Due process, free speech, property rights, all are subject to involuntary ideological compromise.
    I discount the Count’s hyperbole by a factor of 10. The majority here take it as a given that right wing oppression is upon us and that only the left stands opposed to it. In fact, the left has its own forms of oppression, and they are real and have been with us for decades in one form or another. The obnoxious SJW movement is particularly galling, one cut below the Red Guard.

  517. One could make a good case that so far the worst thing that Trump has done is continue Obama’s policies in Yemen, though of course it’s only been a couple of weeks. He will have to start a new war to top it. He easily could, with Iran the most likely target.
    Maybe. I don’t harp on the 25th A for nothing. Jumping into a war without congress and the country on board, or without a visible, imminent threat, is exactly the kind of thing the 25th A is there for.
    My own view, FWIW, is that they will have to evince very good reasons during his questioning for a filibuster, or the risks aren’t worthwhile.
    Correct. If the Senate filibusters, Trump will go nuclear. No sane person wants that.

  518. One could make a good case that so far the worst thing that Trump has done is continue Obama’s policies in Yemen, though of course it’s only been a couple of weeks. He will have to start a new war to top it. He easily could, with Iran the most likely target.
    Maybe. I don’t harp on the 25th A for nothing. Jumping into a war without congress and the country on board, or without a visible, imminent threat, is exactly the kind of thing the 25th A is there for.
    My own view, FWIW, is that they will have to evince very good reasons during his questioning for a filibuster, or the risks aren’t worthwhile.
    Correct. If the Senate filibusters, Trump will go nuclear. No sane person wants that.

  519. “if you see no explicit condemnation of something here, you cannot just assume from this fact that people support it.”
    And *I* would like to point out, that of all the various commenters here, I WAS THE ONLY ONE that offered the people of Yemen a suggestion for how they could improve their situation with respect to 2017 USA: rename their country “Trumplandia”.
    You think Trump would have ordered a raid on Trumplandia?
    I mean SHEESH people, do I have to personally snatch atlases out of your hands and write in the name? Relabel the desk in the UN? And no, don’t you iphone fascists tell me “there’s an app for that”.

  520. “if you see no explicit condemnation of something here, you cannot just assume from this fact that people support it.”
    And *I* would like to point out, that of all the various commenters here, I WAS THE ONLY ONE that offered the people of Yemen a suggestion for how they could improve their situation with respect to 2017 USA: rename their country “Trumplandia”.
    You think Trump would have ordered a raid on Trumplandia?
    I mean SHEESH people, do I have to personally snatch atlases out of your hands and write in the name? Relabel the desk in the UN? And no, don’t you iphone fascists tell me “there’s an app for that”.

  521. I don’t think that a good reason not to filibuster. If the Democrats are to be constrained by Trump threatening to lose his temper, they might as well pack up and go home. And if you can’t use the filibuster because it might get removed, the what do you have to lose anyway ?
    The arguments are quite finely balanced, IMO, and more dependent on the currents within the Senate itself, and the importance of being seen to win the public argument.

  522. I don’t think that a good reason not to filibuster. If the Democrats are to be constrained by Trump threatening to lose his temper, they might as well pack up and go home. And if you can’t use the filibuster because it might get removed, the what do you have to lose anyway ?
    The arguments are quite finely balanced, IMO, and more dependent on the currents within the Senate itself, and the importance of being seen to win the public argument.

  523. wj: Just to be clear, some “conservatives” on college campuses behave that way. And make the rest of look bad the same way that the anarchist rioters do the left. I don’t have to imagine it, I was in Berkeley in the late 1960s (most people’s stereotype, though inaccurate, is close enough for this purpose) and I lived it. But most of us merely tried to provide a little, non-confrontational, alternative perspective. And managed not to come out of it without sympathy to the rest of humanity.
    I don’t disagree with that and is why I specifically noted “College Republicans,” as in the ones who organize themselves under the banner of the Republican party on campus. These are the ones who, to use two examples from my own college days, compared gay sex to having sex with animals in class one day and another who went on a completely inappropriate anti-abortion tirade (not to mention the guy who yelled “Faggot! Faggot! I hope you die of AIDS” one day outside a dorm whose RF was gay).
    They were dicks, made a point of being dicks, and in fact reveled in it as if it made them superior to everyone else because they supposedly “knew” how they “real world” worked.

  524. wj: Just to be clear, some “conservatives” on college campuses behave that way. And make the rest of look bad the same way that the anarchist rioters do the left. I don’t have to imagine it, I was in Berkeley in the late 1960s (most people’s stereotype, though inaccurate, is close enough for this purpose) and I lived it. But most of us merely tried to provide a little, non-confrontational, alternative perspective. And managed not to come out of it without sympathy to the rest of humanity.
    I don’t disagree with that and is why I specifically noted “College Republicans,” as in the ones who organize themselves under the banner of the Republican party on campus. These are the ones who, to use two examples from my own college days, compared gay sex to having sex with animals in class one day and another who went on a completely inappropriate anti-abortion tirade (not to mention the guy who yelled “Faggot! Faggot! I hope you die of AIDS” one day outside a dorm whose RF was gay).
    They were dicks, made a point of being dicks, and in fact reveled in it as if it made them superior to everyone else because they supposedly “knew” how they “real world” worked.

  525. And if you can’t use the filibuster because it might get removed, the what do you have to lose anyway ?
    Agree up to a point. It’s a matter of timing and tactics. If, first horse out of the gate, the Dems throw down with a filibuster of an objectively qualified candidate, it makes the nuclear option seem less arbitrary and more unreasonable. Further, by not using the filibuster now and saving it for the right fight, the argument against going nuclear is more persuasive.

  526. And if you can’t use the filibuster because it might get removed, the what do you have to lose anyway ?
    Agree up to a point. It’s a matter of timing and tactics. If, first horse out of the gate, the Dems throw down with a filibuster of an objectively qualified candidate, it makes the nuclear option seem less arbitrary and more unreasonable. Further, by not using the filibuster now and saving it for the right fight, the argument against going nuclear is more persuasive.

  527. You think Trump would have ordered a raid on Trumplandia?
    Except that you are assuming facts not in evidence. To wit, that Trump would be told about it by those around him who wanted the attack. That he would not learn of it himself seems enormously likely. (Unless, I suppose, it featured on Morning Joe.)
    Obviously if he didn’t know, it wouldn’t stop him. Although he would doubtless otherwise deny that it ever happened, no matter how much evidence there was.

  528. You think Trump would have ordered a raid on Trumplandia?
    Except that you are assuming facts not in evidence. To wit, that Trump would be told about it by those around him who wanted the attack. That he would not learn of it himself seems enormously likely. (Unless, I suppose, it featured on Morning Joe.)
    Obviously if he didn’t know, it wouldn’t stop him. Although he would doubtless otherwise deny that it ever happened, no matter how much evidence there was.

  529. They were dicks, made a point of being dicks, and in fact reveled in it as if it made them superior to everyone else because they supposedly “knew” how they “real world” worked.
    We, bigots that we were, used to call the kids who behaved that way “frat boys.”

  530. They were dicks, made a point of being dicks, and in fact reveled in it as if it made them superior to everyone else because they supposedly “knew” how they “real world” worked.
    We, bigots that we were, used to call the kids who behaved that way “frat boys.”

  531. McTx: the trend toward illiberal liberalism on campus is long-standing and not diminishing. Nor is it limited to campuses these days. Speech codes, hate speech and the like, with definitions of what can and cannot be said emanating from from various academic nooks and crannies are not figmant’s of imagination and they are not benign.
    I won’t deny that in many cases conservative speakers have been kept from speaking on college campuses by left wing student protesters. I think that’s wrong and they shouldn’t do it, although I would say I’m more concerned when it happens to, e.g., a George Will or (even though I loathe him) Charles Krauthammer, who might have actually have something interesting to say, as opposed to idiots like Milo and David Horowitz whose sole reason for being seems to be to piss of liberals. There does need to be some context of the setting of the speaking thrown in though (he says, noting one of your links is talking about commencement speeches).
    OTOH, these are college kids not acting under the color of state authority, or any authority for that matter. And yet we have Trump, who is, after all, POTUS his behavior notwithstanding, and commentators on Fox News’ website saying Trump should shut the entire campus down.
    These things are not the same.

  532. McTx: the trend toward illiberal liberalism on campus is long-standing and not diminishing. Nor is it limited to campuses these days. Speech codes, hate speech and the like, with definitions of what can and cannot be said emanating from from various academic nooks and crannies are not figmant’s of imagination and they are not benign.
    I won’t deny that in many cases conservative speakers have been kept from speaking on college campuses by left wing student protesters. I think that’s wrong and they shouldn’t do it, although I would say I’m more concerned when it happens to, e.g., a George Will or (even though I loathe him) Charles Krauthammer, who might have actually have something interesting to say, as opposed to idiots like Milo and David Horowitz whose sole reason for being seems to be to piss of liberals. There does need to be some context of the setting of the speaking thrown in though (he says, noting one of your links is talking about commencement speeches).
    OTOH, these are college kids not acting under the color of state authority, or any authority for that matter. And yet we have Trump, who is, after all, POTUS his behavior notwithstanding, and commentators on Fox News’ website saying Trump should shut the entire campus down.
    These things are not the same.

  533. McKinney,
    The obnoxious SJW movement is particularly galling, one cut below the Red Guard.
    When the SJW movement is able to publicly humiliate Wall Street bankers and send them to work in the hinterlands slopping pigs or have them executed, this might have some persuasiveness. Otherwise, it is simply a risible claim deserving of nothing but derision.
    Further, by not using the filibuster now and saving it for the right fight, the argument against going nuclear is more persuasive.
    You ignore recent history, assert a false premise and proceed to argue that the Democrats, going forward, should (most likely, hedge hedge) never use the filibuster.
    Therefore, it cannot be taken seriously.
    Over the last 8 years, the senate GOP (you know, the last preservers of tradition) has turned the filibuster into a common weapon to be employed on just about any occasion. In the olden days (I’m currently reading Caro’s bio of LBJ)the mere threat of a filibuster was reserved for those times when the (southern) minority felt they were backed into a corner and had no other parliamentary weapon. The threat itself could bring out the big guns to hammer out a compromise (cf. 1957 civil rights bill) or the other side would count votes and concede.
    By their reckless and extraordinary overuse of the filibuster 2008-present, the GOP devalued it to the point that the argument for keeping it around is, well, moot.
    The Dems need to go to the mat now. And if the filibuster goes, it goes.
    Given its use throughout our history to mainly block civil rights legislation, and impose the will of the minority on the majority, there should be few, if any, tears shed for its demise.

  534. McKinney,
    The obnoxious SJW movement is particularly galling, one cut below the Red Guard.
    When the SJW movement is able to publicly humiliate Wall Street bankers and send them to work in the hinterlands slopping pigs or have them executed, this might have some persuasiveness. Otherwise, it is simply a risible claim deserving of nothing but derision.
    Further, by not using the filibuster now and saving it for the right fight, the argument against going nuclear is more persuasive.
    You ignore recent history, assert a false premise and proceed to argue that the Democrats, going forward, should (most likely, hedge hedge) never use the filibuster.
    Therefore, it cannot be taken seriously.
    Over the last 8 years, the senate GOP (you know, the last preservers of tradition) has turned the filibuster into a common weapon to be employed on just about any occasion. In the olden days (I’m currently reading Caro’s bio of LBJ)the mere threat of a filibuster was reserved for those times when the (southern) minority felt they were backed into a corner and had no other parliamentary weapon. The threat itself could bring out the big guns to hammer out a compromise (cf. 1957 civil rights bill) or the other side would count votes and concede.
    By their reckless and extraordinary overuse of the filibuster 2008-present, the GOP devalued it to the point that the argument for keeping it around is, well, moot.
    The Dems need to go to the mat now. And if the filibuster goes, it goes.
    Given its use throughout our history to mainly block civil rights legislation, and impose the will of the minority on the majority, there should be few, if any, tears shed for its demise.

  535. Nigel,
    The arguments are quite finely balanced, IMO, and more dependent on the currents within the Senate itself, and the importance of being seen to win the public argument.
    It comes down to this: Will McConnell, a so-called worshipper of Senate tradition, do what must be done to preserve this one last bastion of the filibuster, or will he administer the final coup de grace? The record is clear. His partisanship is overriding.
    If the Dems stick together, the filibuster dies, or McConnell comes to the realization that what comes around can go around.
    If Mitch can pick enough of them off, then Trump gets another political hack on the Court, and Dem threats of filibusters in the future would be a laughingstock that nobody would take seriously, because enough of them will have demonstrated that they can be bought….for f&cking peanuts.

  536. Nigel,
    The arguments are quite finely balanced, IMO, and more dependent on the currents within the Senate itself, and the importance of being seen to win the public argument.
    It comes down to this: Will McConnell, a so-called worshipper of Senate tradition, do what must be done to preserve this one last bastion of the filibuster, or will he administer the final coup de grace? The record is clear. His partisanship is overriding.
    If the Dems stick together, the filibuster dies, or McConnell comes to the realization that what comes around can go around.
    If Mitch can pick enough of them off, then Trump gets another political hack on the Court, and Dem threats of filibusters in the future would be a laughingstock that nobody would take seriously, because enough of them will have demonstrated that they can be bought….for f&cking peanuts.

  537. As I stated above, the filibuster was traditionally a weapon of last resort used by those who felt their vital interests or “way of life” itself was at stake.
    With the greater ideological cohesion of the two parties we see today, it would appear ANY difference is seen as an extinction event.
    The GOP consciously adopted the use of the filibuster to bring even the most arcane business of the federal government to a grinding halt.
    Any consequences flowing from the adoption of this tactic are not due to “choices” made by the Democratic Party. To assert otherwise is to take refuge in a historical la-la land.

  538. As I stated above, the filibuster was traditionally a weapon of last resort used by those who felt their vital interests or “way of life” itself was at stake.
    With the greater ideological cohesion of the two parties we see today, it would appear ANY difference is seen as an extinction event.
    The GOP consciously adopted the use of the filibuster to bring even the most arcane business of the federal government to a grinding halt.
    Any consequences flowing from the adoption of this tactic are not due to “choices” made by the Democratic Party. To assert otherwise is to take refuge in a historical la-la land.

  539. First, just because WaPo does a piece pinning the fun and games at Berkeley on those damned anarchists doesn’t make it the case. My sense is that running off unpopular, right of center speakers is a fairly standard feature at colleges these days. Here are two links, from each side of the fence:
    I thought we were concerned about violence (or at least destruction). I may not always agree that it’s a good idea for students to get rid of speakers whose ideas they don’t like on college campuses, be it for reasons of intellectual tolerance or otherwise. But it’s also not something that’s ruining people’s lives when students peacefully protest (that’s the distinction being made by linking the WaPo article) to prevent someone speaking on campus. It’s just not something to be outraged over.
    In the case of Yiannopoulos, and setting aside the problems with the anarchists, like Ugh mentioned, there’s not much in the way of intellectual value to having him on campus anyway. Were it not for the actions of the dozens of Black Bloc buttheads, I’d have no problem with his being disinvited because a significant number of students were strongly against his being there – not because he’s conservative, rather because he’s an a$$hole without merit. He’s a political sideshow freak.
    I’m also not so sure the mere fact that an increasing number of speakers have been disinvited from or have been forced to leave speaking engagements on campuses is necessarily a problem, at least not without somehow also teasing out the total number of speakers invited to begin with or the intellectual quality of those speakers.

  540. First, just because WaPo does a piece pinning the fun and games at Berkeley on those damned anarchists doesn’t make it the case. My sense is that running off unpopular, right of center speakers is a fairly standard feature at colleges these days. Here are two links, from each side of the fence:
    I thought we were concerned about violence (or at least destruction). I may not always agree that it’s a good idea for students to get rid of speakers whose ideas they don’t like on college campuses, be it for reasons of intellectual tolerance or otherwise. But it’s also not something that’s ruining people’s lives when students peacefully protest (that’s the distinction being made by linking the WaPo article) to prevent someone speaking on campus. It’s just not something to be outraged over.
    In the case of Yiannopoulos, and setting aside the problems with the anarchists, like Ugh mentioned, there’s not much in the way of intellectual value to having him on campus anyway. Were it not for the actions of the dozens of Black Bloc buttheads, I’d have no problem with his being disinvited because a significant number of students were strongly against his being there – not because he’s conservative, rather because he’s an a$$hole without merit. He’s a political sideshow freak.
    I’m also not so sure the mere fact that an increasing number of speakers have been disinvited from or have been forced to leave speaking engagements on campuses is necessarily a problem, at least not without somehow also teasing out the total number of speakers invited to begin with or the intellectual quality of those speakers.

  541. On the filibuster – the idea that, should Trump get to appoint another justice to SCOTUS, the GOP would let the filibuster stand in Trump’s way that time just because Dems didn’t filibuster that time is ridiculous. Because, odds are, if Trump gets to appoint another it’s going to move the swing vote on SCOTUS from Kennedy to Roberts and means the end of Roe after the 43 year + quest.

  542. On the filibuster – the idea that, should Trump get to appoint another justice to SCOTUS, the GOP would let the filibuster stand in Trump’s way that time just because Dems didn’t filibuster that time is ridiculous. Because, odds are, if Trump gets to appoint another it’s going to move the swing vote on SCOTUS from Kennedy to Roberts and means the end of Roe after the 43 year + quest.

  543. On Gorsuch getting confirmed unanimously or whatever to the 10th Circuit, whatever. In that case he was being appointed to the rather staid and relatively uncontroversial position of “appellate judge” where he was bound by, and in fact followed, Supreme Court precedent.
    This time around he’s being appointed to the political position of “Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.” In this position he will be one of 9 people who have been trusted with the de facto role of incrementally (usually) amending the United States Constitution. His prior suitability for the role of “appellate judge”, while not being irrelevant, is thus nevertheless of little use in evaluating him as a potential justice when it comes to this function.
    (full disclosure: idea that Supreme Court Justices are not really judges stolen from noted constitutional scholar and personal embodiment of the banality of evil John Yoo, who I’m sure got it from someone else)

  544. On Gorsuch getting confirmed unanimously or whatever to the 10th Circuit, whatever. In that case he was being appointed to the rather staid and relatively uncontroversial position of “appellate judge” where he was bound by, and in fact followed, Supreme Court precedent.
    This time around he’s being appointed to the political position of “Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.” In this position he will be one of 9 people who have been trusted with the de facto role of incrementally (usually) amending the United States Constitution. His prior suitability for the role of “appellate judge”, while not being irrelevant, is thus nevertheless of little use in evaluating him as a potential justice when it comes to this function.
    (full disclosure: idea that Supreme Court Justices are not really judges stolen from noted constitutional scholar and personal embodiment of the banality of evil John Yoo, who I’m sure got it from someone else)

  545. In that case he was being appointed to the rather staid and relatively uncontroversial position of “appellate judge” where he was bound by, and in fact followed, Supreme Court precedent.
    Yes. It is important to remind folks that, popular opinion (and the opinion of our inept Dem leadership) notwithstanding, the Supreme Court is not legally or constitutionally (or any other ly) bound by precedent.
    Under the current conditions of increasingly bitter partisan division, this is huge.
    So if you are a “leftist” of some kind of stripe, it is imperative to strenuously oppose this nomination.
    It is illegitimate. It is wrong on the merits. It will result in terrible public policy as promulgated by an increasingly doctrinaire right wing SC.

  546. In that case he was being appointed to the rather staid and relatively uncontroversial position of “appellate judge” where he was bound by, and in fact followed, Supreme Court precedent.
    Yes. It is important to remind folks that, popular opinion (and the opinion of our inept Dem leadership) notwithstanding, the Supreme Court is not legally or constitutionally (or any other ly) bound by precedent.
    Under the current conditions of increasingly bitter partisan division, this is huge.
    So if you are a “leftist” of some kind of stripe, it is imperative to strenuously oppose this nomination.
    It is illegitimate. It is wrong on the merits. It will result in terrible public policy as promulgated by an increasingly doctrinaire right wing SC.

  547. McKT: The fact is, the left has historically, at the fringe and not-so-fringe been every bit as violent and intolerant as the right.
    Remind me again of the historically large number of leftist lynch mobs who literally strung innocent and not-so-innocent people up and killed them.
    Or just look up the “Wilmington Riots.” Or Tulsa. Or various KKK atrocities. It’s all there in the history books. (Though perhaps not in Texas?)
    Your statement would be laughable if it were not so offensive. Only by deliberately excluding violence that either includes or is silently sanctioned by the conservative elites (*) who run most of society is this even remotely plausible.
    If you want to amend the end of your formula to ” . . . every bit as violent and intolerant as the powerless right,” you might just get away with it.
    Otherwise, don’t lecture a historian about what is “historically” the “fact,” because you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. (Or, worse, you do and you just don’t care.)
    Sheesh.
    (*) “conservative elites” is my shorthand for high government officials, law enforcement officers, and business proprietors with clout. They know who they are, and we should too. They are certainly not all of one party, so I’m consciously omitting any reference to party labels. But I’m talking about the people in any community that can skate close to the edge, or even cross over it egregiously, and get away with it, because they are of the right race or religion or faction or connections. And most of them are “conservative” with a small “c” because the system as it is suits them.

  548. McKT: The fact is, the left has historically, at the fringe and not-so-fringe been every bit as violent and intolerant as the right.
    Remind me again of the historically large number of leftist lynch mobs who literally strung innocent and not-so-innocent people up and killed them.
    Or just look up the “Wilmington Riots.” Or Tulsa. Or various KKK atrocities. It’s all there in the history books. (Though perhaps not in Texas?)
    Your statement would be laughable if it were not so offensive. Only by deliberately excluding violence that either includes or is silently sanctioned by the conservative elites (*) who run most of society is this even remotely plausible.
    If you want to amend the end of your formula to ” . . . every bit as violent and intolerant as the powerless right,” you might just get away with it.
    Otherwise, don’t lecture a historian about what is “historically” the “fact,” because you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. (Or, worse, you do and you just don’t care.)
    Sheesh.
    (*) “conservative elites” is my shorthand for high government officials, law enforcement officers, and business proprietors with clout. They know who they are, and we should too. They are certainly not all of one party, so I’m consciously omitting any reference to party labels. But I’m talking about the people in any community that can skate close to the edge, or even cross over it egregiously, and get away with it, because they are of the right race or religion or faction or connections. And most of them are “conservative” with a small “c” because the system as it is suits them.

  549. Fnck fnck fnckitty Mcfnck Fnck
    WASHINGTON — As a clandestine officer at the Central Intelligence Agency in 2002, Gina Haspel oversaw the torture of two terrorism suspects and later took part in an order to destroy videotapes documenting their brutal interrogations at a secret prison in Thailand.
    On Thursday, Ms. Haspel was named the deputy director of the C.I.A.
    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/us/politics/cia-deputy-director-gina-haspel-torture-thailand.html

  550. Fnck fnck fnckitty Mcfnck Fnck
    WASHINGTON — As a clandestine officer at the Central Intelligence Agency in 2002, Gina Haspel oversaw the torture of two terrorism suspects and later took part in an order to destroy videotapes documenting their brutal interrogations at a secret prison in Thailand.
    On Thursday, Ms. Haspel was named the deputy director of the C.I.A.
    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/us/politics/cia-deputy-director-gina-haspel-torture-thailand.html

  551. That Times reporter hasn’t been paying attention.
    “Where Ms. Haspel falls on the issue is not clear — as an undercover C.I.A. official, she was not offering public opinions on government policy — and neither she nor Mr. Pompeo could order agency personnel to resume the practice, because it is now against the law.”
    Bwahahahahahahaha! Next you’ll tell me that the Democrats couldn’t block Gorsuch’s nomination to SCOTUS because no party has done that in decades.

  552. That Times reporter hasn’t been paying attention.
    “Where Ms. Haspel falls on the issue is not clear — as an undercover C.I.A. official, she was not offering public opinions on government policy — and neither she nor Mr. Pompeo could order agency personnel to resume the practice, because it is now against the law.”
    Bwahahahahahahaha! Next you’ll tell me that the Democrats couldn’t block Gorsuch’s nomination to SCOTUS because no party has done that in decades.

  553. So I was talking to a colleague today and someone reminded him of a meeting later. I asked about it, and it was a transgender implementation team for our army unit.
    I asked, ‘can I be on it?’ And he said ‘sure,’ and described in detail what the plans are. Reasonable implementation discussions ensue.
    I said, ‘my daughter has a transgender friend I knew through his transition, and I would like to be part of the right side of history.’
    He said, ‘I have come a long way, but yes, me too.’
    Then we briefly discussed how ridiculous it was to ever say homosexuality was a choice since neither of us recalled choosing to like girls (and recognizing transgender is not the same thing but still new in context.)
    Just a quick reminder of progress that is continuing in hearts, minds, and law.

  554. So I was talking to a colleague today and someone reminded him of a meeting later. I asked about it, and it was a transgender implementation team for our army unit.
    I asked, ‘can I be on it?’ And he said ‘sure,’ and described in detail what the plans are. Reasonable implementation discussions ensue.
    I said, ‘my daughter has a transgender friend I knew through his transition, and I would like to be part of the right side of history.’
    He said, ‘I have come a long way, but yes, me too.’
    Then we briefly discussed how ridiculous it was to ever say homosexuality was a choice since neither of us recalled choosing to like girls (and recognizing transgender is not the same thing but still new in context.)
    Just a quick reminder of progress that is continuing in hearts, minds, and law.

  555. It is illegitimate
    When no other objection is factually supportable. In this case it is the most legitimate thing done to date in this administration. Without the reality of this nomination I doubt he wins. Merrick Garland was never going to be approved and was nominated to keep the issue in the news, that backfired.

  556. It is illegitimate
    When no other objection is factually supportable. In this case it is the most legitimate thing done to date in this administration. Without the reality of this nomination I doubt he wins. Merrick Garland was never going to be approved and was nominated to keep the issue in the news, that backfired.

  557. McKT, in classic fashion, totally misses the point:
    Find me a BLM speaker who advocates for violence who was invited to speak on a college campus
    Okay, now that you’re done looking, you can stop making the comparison between BLM and Milo Yiannopolous.
    The fact that a movement of hundreds of thousands of people contains some who are bad? That’s unsurprising. I don’t see anyone giving the “kill the police” crowd a forum on television or in academia.
    Milo Yiannopolous encourages his supporters to harass, intimidate, and send death threats to people. He does so routinely. He would do so again if allowed to appear at Berkeley.
    So why is protesting his appearance bad, again?

  558. McKT, in classic fashion, totally misses the point:
    Find me a BLM speaker who advocates for violence who was invited to speak on a college campus
    Okay, now that you’re done looking, you can stop making the comparison between BLM and Milo Yiannopolous.
    The fact that a movement of hundreds of thousands of people contains some who are bad? That’s unsurprising. I don’t see anyone giving the “kill the police” crowd a forum on television or in academia.
    Milo Yiannopolous encourages his supporters to harass, intimidate, and send death threats to people. He does so routinely. He would do so again if allowed to appear at Berkeley.
    So why is protesting his appearance bad, again?

  559. Milo Yiannopolous encourages his supporters to harass, intimidate, and send death threats to people. He does so routinely. He would do so again if allowed to appear at Berkeley.
    So why is protesting his appearance bad, again?
    Because it’s just so intolerant! (…of intolerance, itself)

  560. Milo Yiannopolous encourages his supporters to harass, intimidate, and send death threats to people. He does so routinely. He would do so again if allowed to appear at Berkeley.
    So why is protesting his appearance bad, again?
    Because it’s just so intolerant! (…of intolerance, itself)

  561. McK, you are correct to note that violence has historically been part of leftist political activity. In this country, however, not so much, for about the last 40 years.
    Always exceptions of course, but generally not a lot of violence and mayhem.
    All the Port Huron New Left college kids got married and got jobs. “Sticking it to the man” is less interesting when you’re “the man”.
    On Thursday, Ms. Haspel was named the deputy director of the C.I.A.
    He’s just trolling us now.
    Merrick Garland was never going to be approved
    Yes, that’s the point.

  562. McK, you are correct to note that violence has historically been part of leftist political activity. In this country, however, not so much, for about the last 40 years.
    Always exceptions of course, but generally not a lot of violence and mayhem.
    All the Port Huron New Left college kids got married and got jobs. “Sticking it to the man” is less interesting when you’re “the man”.
    On Thursday, Ms. Haspel was named the deputy director of the C.I.A.
    He’s just trolling us now.
    Merrick Garland was never going to be approved
    Yes, that’s the point.

  569. dr ngo and russell, I have a feeling McKT might have been talking about “the left” in “the world”, and including people like Mao, Stalin etc in the equation. He’s done that with me before, in discussions where it was less absurd. Perhaps if we asked him whether he sticks to his formulation in the case of “the left in America” it would be illuminating?

  570. dr ngo and russell, I have a feeling McKT might have been talking about “the left” in “the world”, and including people like Mao, Stalin etc in the equation. He’s done that with me before, in discussions where it was less absurd. Perhaps if we asked him whether he sticks to his formulation in the case of “the left in America” it would be illuminating?

  571. Rod Dreher linked to this tweet storm by David Hines a couple weeks back. The claim Dreher in his bubble was making is that the left is more violent. Now I have read Perlstein say that there was a lot of rightwing violence in that era– he might have said there was more rightwing violence than leftwing in “Nixonland”, but I don’t remember..
    Anyway, here is the tweet storm, which is about leftwing violence in the 60’s and 70’s.
    https://storify.com/sphenoid/days-of-rage-pt-1

  572. Rod Dreher linked to this tweet storm by David Hines a couple weeks back. The claim Dreher in his bubble was making is that the left is more violent. Now I have read Perlstein say that there was a lot of rightwing violence in that era– he might have said there was more rightwing violence than leftwing in “Nixonland”, but I don’t remember..
    Anyway, here is the tweet storm, which is about leftwing violence in the 60’s and 70’s.
    https://storify.com/sphenoid/days-of-rage-pt-1

  573. As an off-topic aside, I just sent $50 to another musician’s health-related GoFundMe page. Sax player, works a lot around Boston, had heart failure last summer.
    He’s making a good recovery, he was on a session I did last night, but he’s no doubt buried financially. He’s raised about $7K via GoFundMe, given that he spent significant time in critical care that’s probably a small drop in a big bucket.
    When you go on GoFundMe, you enter your zip code and they put a bunch of other GoFundMe pages from your area in the browser. Most or all of them were health-care related.
    This is what a gig economy and self-directed “health care choices” look like.
    If you have a big circle of friends, and you’re not sick in a really expensive way, you might make out OK.
    Otherwise you’re gonna die, or go broke.

  574. As an off-topic aside, I just sent $50 to another musician’s health-related GoFundMe page. Sax player, works a lot around Boston, had heart failure last summer.
    He’s making a good recovery, he was on a session I did last night, but he’s no doubt buried financially. He’s raised about $7K via GoFundMe, given that he spent significant time in critical care that’s probably a small drop in a big bucket.
    When you go on GoFundMe, you enter your zip code and they put a bunch of other GoFundMe pages from your area in the browser. Most or all of them were health-care related.
    This is what a gig economy and self-directed “health care choices” look like.
    If you have a big circle of friends, and you’re not sick in a really expensive way, you might make out OK.
    Otherwise you’re gonna die, or go broke.

  577. In this case it [the Gorsuch nomination] is the most legitimate thing done to date in this administration.
    Gotta mostly agree with Marty on this one. (I’d say no more so than nominating other cabinet officers, but still.) Making these nominations is one of the President’s duties. The nominee is no doubt qualified — regardless of whether one agrees with his take on the law. Or what one assumes to be his take; there have been surprises from Justices before.
    The only way I can see that you can argue that it is illegitimate is because Garland’s wasn’t acted on. But on that basis, NO nomination would ever again be legitimate.
    So feel free to oppose it for straightforward ideological reasons. If you find them, feel free to bring up character type reasons as well. But opposing it just because it is “illegitimate” is a nonsense. (Unless you’ve got something different that I’ve missed.)

  578. In this case it [the Gorsuch nomination] is the most legitimate thing done to date in this administration.
    Gotta mostly agree with Marty on this one. (I’d say no more so than nominating other cabinet officers, but still.) Making these nominations is one of the President’s duties. The nominee is no doubt qualified — regardless of whether one agrees with his take on the law. Or what one assumes to be his take; there have been surprises from Justices before.
    The only way I can see that you can argue that it is illegitimate is because Garland’s wasn’t acted on. But on that basis, NO nomination would ever again be legitimate.
    So feel free to oppose it for straightforward ideological reasons. If you find them, feel free to bring up character type reasons as well. But opposing it just because it is “illegitimate” is a nonsense. (Unless you’ve got something different that I’ve missed.)

  579. But on that basis, NO nomination would ever again be legitimate.
    Am I naïve in considering the possibility, even hypothetically, of a SCOTUS nominee with bipartisan support?

  580. But on that basis, NO nomination would ever again be legitimate.
    Am I naïve in considering the possibility, even hypothetically, of a SCOTUS nominee with bipartisan support?

  581. But opposing it just because it is “illegitimate” is a nonsense. (Unless you’ve got something different that I’ve missed.)
    It is nonsense to accept the Trump presidency as ‘legitimate’. Federal and foreign actors intervened in the election and effectively handed the presidency to Trump. I defer to LG&M where this argument has been made at some length by Scott Lemieux.
    It was also just one of several reasons I put forward to oppose this nominee. You clearly seem to imply otherwise, and I find that to be offensive.
    Given that, I feel free to imagine that you would have absolutely no issues at all if the president you supported nominated somebody for the Court and a Senate controlled by the opposition party simply told him/her to go piss up a rope.
    Glad we settled that.
    HSH: People keep throwing that word around, that one that starts with a “b” and ends with “ship”.
    That ship sailed long ago. The growing ideological cohesiveness of the two major parties has pretty much dictated that outcome.

  582. But opposing it just because it is “illegitimate” is a nonsense. (Unless you’ve got something different that I’ve missed.)
    It is nonsense to accept the Trump presidency as ‘legitimate’. Federal and foreign actors intervened in the election and effectively handed the presidency to Trump. I defer to LG&M where this argument has been made at some length by Scott Lemieux.
    It was also just one of several reasons I put forward to oppose this nominee. You clearly seem to imply otherwise, and I find that to be offensive.
    Given that, I feel free to imagine that you would have absolutely no issues at all if the president you supported nominated somebody for the Court and a Senate controlled by the opposition party simply told him/her to go piss up a rope.
    Glad we settled that.
    HSH: People keep throwing that word around, that one that starts with a “b” and ends with “ship”.
    That ship sailed long ago. The growing ideological cohesiveness of the two major parties has pretty much dictated that outcome.

  583. If you start from the premise (conclusion?) that this entire Presidency is illegitimate, that’s a different story. But that means that you might as well sleep or leave the country for the next 4 years (or catastrophic event). Because being in a state of utter outrage is bad for the soul. See all the bigots who viewed Obama that way.

  584. If you start from the premise (conclusion?) that this entire Presidency is illegitimate, that’s a different story. But that means that you might as well sleep or leave the country for the next 4 years (or catastrophic event). Because being in a state of utter outrage is bad for the soul. See all the bigots who viewed Obama that way.

  587. Because being in a state of utter outrage is bad for the soul.
    I’ll get through it. I hope the country does. As they say (just about always…why is that?), we live in interesting times.

  588. Because being in a state of utter outrage is bad for the soul.
    I’ll get through it. I hope the country does. As they say (just about always…why is that?), we live in interesting times.

  589. Rod Dreher linked to this tweet storm by David Hines a couple weeks back
    I don’t know who Hines is, but my guess is that he’s younger than 50. He gets some things right, but other things really really wrong.
    Pro tip: Eldridge Cleaver is not like Stokeley Carmichael is not like Malcolm X. And Tom Hayden is not Jewish.
    Gorsuch: Personally I would consider doctrinaire originalism to be, on its face, a sufficient basis for voting against a SCOTUS candidate, because it is out of the mainstream of American jurisprudence, and is basically inherently nutty.
    If the (D)’s want to vote for Gorsuch because he’s a really smart guy and has all the right qualifications, I’m fine with it. If they want to vote for him because they want to keep their powder dry for bigger fish, I’m fine with that.
    If they want to oppose him because his approach to interpreting the Constitution makes him the legal equivalent of a hide-bound religious fundamentalist, I’m fine with that. And if they want to oppose him to flip the bird to Trump and the (R)’s for their treatment of both Obama and Garland, I’m fine with that.
    Legitimate is as legitimate does.

  590. Rod Dreher linked to this tweet storm by David Hines a couple weeks back
    I don’t know who Hines is, but my guess is that he’s younger than 50. He gets some things right, but other things really really wrong.
    Pro tip: Eldridge Cleaver is not like Stokeley Carmichael is not like Malcolm X. And Tom Hayden is not Jewish.
    Gorsuch: Personally I would consider doctrinaire originalism to be, on its face, a sufficient basis for voting against a SCOTUS candidate, because it is out of the mainstream of American jurisprudence, and is basically inherently nutty.
    If the (D)’s want to vote for Gorsuch because he’s a really smart guy and has all the right qualifications, I’m fine with it. If they want to vote for him because they want to keep their powder dry for bigger fish, I’m fine with that.
    If they want to oppose him because his approach to interpreting the Constitution makes him the legal equivalent of a hide-bound religious fundamentalist, I’m fine with that. And if they want to oppose him to flip the bird to Trump and the (R)’s for their treatment of both Obama and Garland, I’m fine with that.
    Legitimate is as legitimate does.

  591. For light relief, I think this may be some of the best quick reaction advertising I have ever seen
    Haha! Well played.

  592. For light relief, I think this may be some of the best quick reaction advertising I have ever seen
    Haha! Well played.

  593. Doctrinaire originalism is senseless. Did the founders mean to bar electronic eavesdropping when prohibiting “unreasonable search and seizure”? Of course not — they never imagined such a thing as electronic eavesdropping! So they couldn’t have meant it.
    The list goes on. One of the critical functions of the Supreme Court, IMHO, is to interpret the Constitution and law that we have when it is faced with novel circumstances. And, thanks not least to technology, we have had a steady stream of those for a couple of centuries. Refusing to consider how the world has changed (if any of the “Originalists” gave more than convenient lip service to the principle) would be blind.
    That said, I don’t agree that originalism isn’t part of the mainstream of American jurisprudence. It is not, thank goodness, the core of the mainstream. But thanks to a couple of Supreme Court Justices, it is hard to say that it isn’t in the stream.

  594. Doctrinaire originalism is senseless. Did the founders mean to bar electronic eavesdropping when prohibiting “unreasonable search and seizure”? Of course not — they never imagined such a thing as electronic eavesdropping! So they couldn’t have meant it.
    The list goes on. One of the critical functions of the Supreme Court, IMHO, is to interpret the Constitution and law that we have when it is faced with novel circumstances. And, thanks not least to technology, we have had a steady stream of those for a couple of centuries. Refusing to consider how the world has changed (if any of the “Originalists” gave more than convenient lip service to the principle) would be blind.
    That said, I don’t agree that originalism isn’t part of the mainstream of American jurisprudence. It is not, thank goodness, the core of the mainstream. But thanks to a couple of Supreme Court Justices, it is hard to say that it isn’t in the stream.

  595. Put another way, you can be nutty and still not be beyond the mainstream. Something jurisprudence does not have a monopoly on, by the way.

  596. Put another way, you can be nutty and still not be beyond the mainstream. Something jurisprudence does not have a monopoly on, by the way.

  597. I always think of it this way:
    Deuteronomy 25:4 says “Don’t muzzle an ox while it is threshing the grain”.
    What’s the intent of that?
    I don’t have an ox, and threshing grain never really comes up at chez russell. So, current-day legal originalists would say it has no bearing on or relevance to me.

  598. I always think of it this way:
    Deuteronomy 25:4 says “Don’t muzzle an ox while it is threshing the grain”.
    What’s the intent of that?
    I don’t have an ox, and threshing grain never really comes up at chez russell. So, current-day legal originalists would say it has no bearing on or relevance to me.

  599. it is hard to say that it isn’t in the stream.
    I guess I was thinking historically.
    Yes, for the last 30 or so years, it is definitely in the mainstream.
    More’s the pity.

  600. it is hard to say that it isn’t in the stream.
    I guess I was thinking historically.
    Yes, for the last 30 or so years, it is definitely in the mainstream.
    More’s the pity.

  603. It’s curious how the originalists are quite happy to twist themselves into pretzels in order to derive their favoured outcomes from a couple of centuries old document, but markedly reluctant to do the same with constitutional amendments (*cough* ERA) of much more recent vintage.
    I won’t even address the 14th Amendment, whose treatment over time makes something of a mockery of any pretence of constitutional consistency.

  604. It’s curious how the originalists are quite happy to twist themselves into pretzels in order to derive their favoured outcomes from a couple of centuries old document, but markedly reluctant to do the same with constitutional amendments (*cough* ERA) of much more recent vintage.
    I won’t even address the 14th Amendment, whose treatment over time makes something of a mockery of any pretence of constitutional consistency.

  605. OT ?
    Perhaps not. Anyway, here’s an opportunity to order a Dorothea Lange print, and do a bit of good into the bargain.
    https://anchoreditions.com/blog/dorothea-lange-censored-photographs
    (Limited editions of 100, and VERY reasonable, IMO, so won’t last long I suspect.)
    This struck my eye:
    “The Japanese race is an enemy race and while many second and third generation Japanese born on American soil, possessed of American citizenship, have be come ‘Americanized,’ the racial strains are undiluted.
    …It, therefore, follows that along the vital Pacific Coast over 112,000 potential enemies, of Japanese extraction, are at large today. There are indications that these are organized and ready for concerted action at a favorable opportunity.
    The very fact that no sabotage has taken place to date is a disturbing and confirming indication that such action will be taken.”
    — General John L. DeWitt, head of the U.S. Army’s Western Defense Command

  606. OT ?
    Perhaps not. Anyway, here’s an opportunity to order a Dorothea Lange print, and do a bit of good into the bargain.
    https://anchoreditions.com/blog/dorothea-lange-censored-photographs
    (Limited editions of 100, and VERY reasonable, IMO, so won’t last long I suspect.)
    This struck my eye:
    “The Japanese race is an enemy race and while many second and third generation Japanese born on American soil, possessed of American citizenship, have be come ‘Americanized,’ the racial strains are undiluted.
    …It, therefore, follows that along the vital Pacific Coast over 112,000 potential enemies, of Japanese extraction, are at large today. There are indications that these are organized and ready for concerted action at a favorable opportunity.
    The very fact that no sabotage has taken place to date is a disturbing and confirming indication that such action will be taken.”
    — General John L. DeWitt, head of the U.S. Army’s Western Defense Command

  607. In short, absence of evidence is proof of presence. AKA the “just proves what a great conspiracy it is” approach of some conspiracy nuts. Some lunacies persist.

  608. In short, absence of evidence is proof of presence. AKA the “just proves what a great conspiracy it is” approach of some conspiracy nuts. Some lunacies persist.

  611. That would explain why some people consider the internment of Japanese-Americans as a justifying precedent for banning Muslims from entry to the United States. I mean, it was just so exemplary of America’s greatness, right? It’s not like it was appalling stain on our history or anything.

  612. That would explain why some people consider the internment of Japanese-Americans as a justifying precedent for banning Muslims from entry to the United States. I mean, it was just so exemplary of America’s greatness, right? It’s not like it was appalling stain on our history or anything.

  613. Plus if we ban them from entry we wouldn’t even have to build the internment camps in the first place. It’s win-win!
    Thanks for the link Nigel, some of the pictures are very moving.

  614. Plus if we ban them from entry we wouldn’t even have to build the internment camps in the first place. It’s win-win!
    Thanks for the link Nigel, some of the pictures are very moving.

  619. Well, it’s entirely possible (OK, maybe not likely, but possible) to be a good person stuck in a family which you know is appalling. But they remain, even so, your family.
    Maybe a stronger person would just walk away, but some people aren’t that strong — or the situation from the inside isn’t that bad. If those people are willing to work from the inside, to the extent that they can, to moderate the worst excesses, they should be thanked. Too often the tendency I see is to fault them for not magically converting the world to perfection. Not that those faulting others seem all that effective in magically making the world perfect, but hey….

  620. Well, it’s entirely possible (OK, maybe not likely, but possible) to be a good person stuck in a family which you know is appalling. But they remain, even so, your family.
    Maybe a stronger person would just walk away, but some people aren’t that strong — or the situation from the inside isn’t that bad. If those people are willing to work from the inside, to the extent that they can, to moderate the worst excesses, they should be thanked. Too often the tendency I see is to fault them for not magically converting the world to perfection. Not that those faulting others seem all that effective in magically making the world perfect, but hey….

  621. I don’t think I disagree with you wj, was just noting that it seems I had given up too soon on my hope that Ivanka would exert some kind of moderation (however small) over Trump.
    I wouldn’t fault her if she didn’t do so, especially if she doesn’t have an official role in the White House (does she?).
    Separately, I don’t see how they are going to avoid some kind of clash between Kushner and Bannon. Maybe it’s happened already, but ISTM Kushner’s observant orthodox Judaism and Bannon’s fairly blatant antisemitism can’t exist for long under one roof in the WH if they’re both supposed to be key advisors.

  622. I don’t think I disagree with you wj, was just noting that it seems I had given up too soon on my hope that Ivanka would exert some kind of moderation (however small) over Trump.
    I wouldn’t fault her if she didn’t do so, especially if she doesn’t have an official role in the White House (does she?).
    Separately, I don’t see how they are going to avoid some kind of clash between Kushner and Bannon. Maybe it’s happened already, but ISTM Kushner’s observant orthodox Judaism and Bannon’s fairly blatant antisemitism can’t exist for long under one roof in the WH if they’re both supposed to be key advisors.

  623. For all the reservations I have about him, both ideologically and from a nepotism standpoint, I’m definitely praying for Kushner! The sooner Bannon crawls back under his rock, the better.

  624. For all the reservations I have about him, both ideologically and from a nepotism standpoint, I’m definitely praying for Kushner! The sooner Bannon crawls back under his rock, the better.

  629. I’m not so optimistic.
    I expect Trump to fudge this and allow discrimination on religious grounds, as a ‘freedom of religion’ issue. It will be a mess… and we know which way your likely next SCJ is likely to vote.
    The Kushner Bannon scrap will be an interesting one, but we know which of the two connects with the base…

  630. I’m not so optimistic.
    I expect Trump to fudge this and allow discrimination on religious grounds, as a ‘freedom of religion’ issue. It will be a mess… and we know which way your likely next SCJ is likely to vote.
    The Kushner Bannon scrap will be an interesting one, but we know which of the two connects with the base…

  631. Bundy and automatic weapons fire worked.
    Large scale illegal marijuana cultivation, coming soon to a national park near you. And/or any number of other illegal activities.
    Watch where you hike, those dudes are quiet often armed up.
    Chaos you want, chaos you will get.

  632. Bundy and automatic weapons fire worked.
    Large scale illegal marijuana cultivation, coming soon to a national park near you. And/or any number of other illegal activities.
    Watch where you hike, those dudes are quiet often armed up.
    Chaos you want, chaos you will get.

  635. The Kushner Bannon scrap will be an interesting one, but we know which of the two connects with the base…
    But what matters, for the good of the country and in the short run, is which one connects to Trump. Not sure Bannon has the edge there that he thinks he does.

  636. The Kushner Bannon scrap will be an interesting one, but we know which of the two connects with the base…
    But what matters, for the good of the country and in the short run, is which one connects to Trump. Not sure Bannon has the edge there that he thinks he does.

  637. Trump is interested in only two things, money and power. And I suspect power probably comes first, as he knows how to turn power into money.

  638. Trump is interested in only two things, money and power. And I suspect power probably comes first, as he knows how to turn power into money.

  641. I disagree. For Trump, power is just a means to an end. The end being acceptance/approval for himself. He’s resented the Manhattenites for decades, because they looked down on him and sneered at him — he deserved it, the arriviste (maybe he doesn’t realize you can act nouveau riche even if you inherit money). That worldview hasn’t changed.
    The way you get respect (at least the imitation of it) in his world is to be so powerful that they can’t snub you. But power isn’t the end, just the means.

  642. I disagree. For Trump, power is just a means to an end. The end being acceptance/approval for himself. He’s resented the Manhattenites for decades, because they looked down on him and sneered at him — he deserved it, the arriviste (maybe he doesn’t realize you can act nouveau riche even if you inherit money). That worldview hasn’t changed.
    The way you get respect (at least the imitation of it) in his world is to be so powerful that they can’t snub you. But power isn’t the end, just the means.

  643. And pussy is just another way of showing “respect” as he understands it. Not an end, except in so far as it is an indicator of acceptance of his importance.

  644. And pussy is just another way of showing “respect” as he understands it. Not an end, except in so far as it is an indicator of acceptance of his importance.

  645. Otherwise, don’t lecture a historian about what is “historically” the “fact,” because you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. (Or, worse, you do and you just don’t care.)
    Sometimes, this is just too easy. I studied history too. Maybe you missed this class: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism
    The Wiki piece doesn’t include the Soviet Union, the PRC, N Korea, Venezuela, Cuba or Cambodia.
    I think I stated, in effect, the left has the same history of violence as the right. I think I’ll amend that and declare the left to be the winner.

  646. Otherwise, don’t lecture a historian about what is “historically” the “fact,” because you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. (Or, worse, you do and you just don’t care.)
    Sometimes, this is just too easy. I studied history too. Maybe you missed this class: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism
    The Wiki piece doesn’t include the Soviet Union, the PRC, N Korea, Venezuela, Cuba or Cambodia.
    I think I stated, in effect, the left has the same history of violence as the right. I think I’ll amend that and declare the left to be the winner.

  649. From McK’s linked wiki entry:

    United States
    Modern left-wing terrorist groups in the United States developed from remnants of the Weather Underground, the Black Panthers and extremist elements of the Students for a Democratic Society. Between 1973 and 1975, the Symbionese Liberation Army was active, committing bank robberies, two murders, and other acts of violence. Most notably, the group kidnapped heiress Patty Hearst.[10] During the 1980s, both the May 19th Communist Organization (M19CO) and the smaller United Freedom Front were active. After 1985, following the dismantling of both groups, there were no confirmed acts of left-wing terrorism by similar groups.[11]
    Incidents of left-wing terrorism dropped off at the end of the Cold War, partly due to the loss of support for communism.[12]

    It appears that whoever noted the distinction way upthread between worldwide, long-term history and recent American history was on to something.

  650. From McK’s linked wiki entry:

    United States
    Modern left-wing terrorist groups in the United States developed from remnants of the Weather Underground, the Black Panthers and extremist elements of the Students for a Democratic Society. Between 1973 and 1975, the Symbionese Liberation Army was active, committing bank robberies, two murders, and other acts of violence. Most notably, the group kidnapped heiress Patty Hearst.[10] During the 1980s, both the May 19th Communist Organization (M19CO) and the smaller United Freedom Front were active. After 1985, following the dismantling of both groups, there were no confirmed acts of left-wing terrorism by similar groups.[11]
    Incidents of left-wing terrorism dropped off at the end of the Cold War, partly due to the loss of support for communism.[12]

    It appears that whoever noted the distinction way upthread between worldwide, long-term history and recent American history was on to something.

  653. I’m willing to bet that HSH cannot come up with a photo of HSH with Stalin, therefore the same person, QED.

  654. I’m willing to bet that HSH cannot come up with a photo of HSH with Stalin, therefore the same person, QED.

  655. I think I’ll amend that and declare the left to be the winner.
    I think that Wiki page fails to include Attila and Vlad the Impaler. Fake news!!

  656. I think I’ll amend that and declare the left to be the winner.
    I think that Wiki page fails to include Attila and Vlad the Impaler. Fake news!!

  657. It appears that whoever noted the distinction way upthread between worldwide, long-term history and recent American history was on to something.
    hsh, that person was moi. I noted that McKT’s view of “the left” included Stalin, Mao, and no doubt other proponents of (as I understand it, non ideologically pure) state Marxism. These specific examples are not included in the piece he links, but the principle is the same.
    McKinney, since lots of us here refer to ourselves roughly as lefties (although actually I think I’m more of a liberal) do you really think we are aligned in any way or have any resemblance to the kind of philosophy or ideology referred to in that article? Our almost every post gives evidence that there is absolutely nothing in common. When you go into your descriptions of “the left” in the kind of discussions we have here, why don’t you talk about “the American left”, because otherwise your posts about this are more or less meaningless in this context.
    If this presents you with a problem in arguing your case, perhaps you should reconsider your assumptions.

  658. It appears that whoever noted the distinction way upthread between worldwide, long-term history and recent American history was on to something.
    hsh, that person was moi. I noted that McKT’s view of “the left” included Stalin, Mao, and no doubt other proponents of (as I understand it, non ideologically pure) state Marxism. These specific examples are not included in the piece he links, but the principle is the same.
    McKinney, since lots of us here refer to ourselves roughly as lefties (although actually I think I’m more of a liberal) do you really think we are aligned in any way or have any resemblance to the kind of philosophy or ideology referred to in that article? Our almost every post gives evidence that there is absolutely nothing in common. When you go into your descriptions of “the left” in the kind of discussions we have here, why don’t you talk about “the American left”, because otherwise your posts about this are more or less meaningless in this context.
    If this presents you with a problem in arguing your case, perhaps you should reconsider your assumptions.

  659. Here is another article confirming that the rioting in Berkeley was the anarchists and not the general student population, or at least so says the student VP of the College Republicans who invited Milo. And that the University “worked tirelessly” to ensure the event happened.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2017/02/03/berkeley-republicans-vp-university-worked-tirelessly-to-protect-our-rights/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-c%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.1d1e59e02be0

  660. Here is another article confirming that the rioting in Berkeley was the anarchists and not the general student population, or at least so says the student VP of the College Republicans who invited Milo. And that the University “worked tirelessly” to ensure the event happened.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2017/02/03/berkeley-republicans-vp-university-worked-tirelessly-to-protect-our-rights/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-c%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.1d1e59e02be0

  661. That’s the entire history of Modern left wing terrorist groups in America? Damn, Timothy McVeigh outdid them in a single day.

  662. That’s the entire history of Modern left wing terrorist groups in America? Damn, Timothy McVeigh outdid them in a single day.

  663. McTX: The Wiki piece doesn’t include the Soviet Union, the PRC, N Korea, Venezuela, Cuba or Cambodia.
    If McKinney defines the USSR, the PRC, and North f&%#ing Korea as examples of “the Left” then no wonder he talks rot.
    Hey, McKinney: who did Stalin have more in common with, FDR or Mussolini?
    I explicitly left National Socialist Hitler out of the question because I didn’t want to confuse you. But for bonus points: who does Kim Jong-un have more in common with, Bernie Sanders or He, Trump?
    –TP

  664. McTX: The Wiki piece doesn’t include the Soviet Union, the PRC, N Korea, Venezuela, Cuba or Cambodia.
    If McKinney defines the USSR, the PRC, and North f&%#ing Korea as examples of “the Left” then no wonder he talks rot.
    Hey, McKinney: who did Stalin have more in common with, FDR or Mussolini?
    I explicitly left National Socialist Hitler out of the question because I didn’t want to confuse you. But for bonus points: who does Kim Jong-un have more in common with, Bernie Sanders or He, Trump?
    –TP

  667. From my old grade-school friend Tom Zoellner, a professor and journalist now based in L.A.:

    Well, this is going to be another lovely feature of the Trump years so we all might as well know about it. Peaceful protests (such as the ones at the inauguration and at Berkeley this week) are going to be infiltrated by anarchist parasites wearing bandanas, carrying baseball bats and smashing windows. These guys are anything but liberal or progressive and they fall under the loose heading of “Black Bloc,” a street tactic meant to gain maximum press coverage and sow chaos. What they really create, however, is oodles of B-roll video for FOX News and Breitbart to prove to their viewers that everyone protesting Trump must also be a thug, making the underlying issues easy to dismiss. Remember the Occupy movement? They were hit with these Black Bloc maggots, which did a ton of p.r. damage.
    I’m not sure how to counteract this annoyance except to just keep advertising that these douchebags have nothing to do with peaceful resistance against the Trump agenda, and serve only to build up a composite fallacy for right-wing gasbags to denounce. Here’s a really good analysis from a North Carolina police detective:
    http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2015/01/understanding-the-black-bloc.aspx

  668. From my old grade-school friend Tom Zoellner, a professor and journalist now based in L.A.:

    Well, this is going to be another lovely feature of the Trump years so we all might as well know about it. Peaceful protests (such as the ones at the inauguration and at Berkeley this week) are going to be infiltrated by anarchist parasites wearing bandanas, carrying baseball bats and smashing windows. These guys are anything but liberal or progressive and they fall under the loose heading of “Black Bloc,” a street tactic meant to gain maximum press coverage and sow chaos. What they really create, however, is oodles of B-roll video for FOX News and Breitbart to prove to their viewers that everyone protesting Trump must also be a thug, making the underlying issues easy to dismiss. Remember the Occupy movement? They were hit with these Black Bloc maggots, which did a ton of p.r. damage.
    I’m not sure how to counteract this annoyance except to just keep advertising that these douchebags have nothing to do with peaceful resistance against the Trump agenda, and serve only to build up a composite fallacy for right-wing gasbags to denounce. Here’s a really good analysis from a North Carolina police detective:
    http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2015/01/understanding-the-black-bloc.aspx

  669. The peaceful marchers are going to need to devote some serious attention to building liaisons with the police. So they can work together to shut down these bad actors.
    Probably be good for both for the additional reason that it would help them each see the other as real people who want to help.

  670. The peaceful marchers are going to need to devote some serious attention to building liaisons with the police. So they can work together to shut down these bad actors.
    Probably be good for both for the additional reason that it would help them each see the other as real people who want to help.

  673. The peaceful marchers are going to need to devote some serious attention to building liaisons with the police
    Agreed 100 times over.
    To the Count’s link: IMO they’re basically trolling us at this point. Sometime later this week they will probably outlaw the Teletubbies, or at least Tinky Winky.
    If you think of each Trump EO, or each (R) bill, as an exercise in cleek’s law, everything will be illuminated.
    Bring it. See you in court MF’er.

  674. The peaceful marchers are going to need to devote some serious attention to building liaisons with the police
    Agreed 100 times over.
    To the Count’s link: IMO they’re basically trolling us at this point. Sometime later this week they will probably outlaw the Teletubbies, or at least Tinky Winky.
    If you think of each Trump EO, or each (R) bill, as an exercise in cleek’s law, everything will be illuminated.
    Bring it. See you in court MF’er.

  675. Meanwhile, the Washington Post reports that the number of visas affected by the travel ban isn’t a few hundred, but (per Dept of State) 60,000.
    Orders of magnitude, how the f*^$ do they work?

  676. Meanwhile, the Washington Post reports that the number of visas affected by the travel ban isn’t a few hundred, but (per Dept of State) 60,000.
    Orders of magnitude, how the f*^$ do they work?

  677. Nice link, Count…
    The agency said in a statement that it revoked public access to the reports “based on our commitment to being transparent …

  678. Nice link, Count…
    The agency said in a statement that it revoked public access to the reports “based on our commitment to being transparent …

  681. Just about anybody (yes, there are exceptions!) would, if pushed, agree that political violence, under certain circumstances, is justified.
    The question is when.
    If you want to scale that up, well, there are problems, but on the whole and throughout history, those in power have killed more than those without it.
    So where does the ‘right’ fit in here?
    I report. You decide.

  682. Just about anybody (yes, there are exceptions!) would, if pushed, agree that political violence, under certain circumstances, is justified.
    The question is when.
    If you want to scale that up, well, there are problems, but on the whole and throughout history, those in power have killed more than those without it.
    So where does the ‘right’ fit in here?
    I report. You decide.

  683. The peaceful marchers are going to need to devote some serious attention to building liaisons with the police. So they can work together to shut down these bad actors.
    The problem is not “these bad actors”. The problem is Dtrump.
    Eye. Ball.

  684. The peaceful marchers are going to need to devote some serious attention to building liaisons with the police. So they can work together to shut down these bad actors.
    The problem is not “these bad actors”. The problem is Dtrump.
    Eye. Ball.

  685. McKT: If you are suddenly switching from talking about American leftists to talking about Stalin and Mao, etc., it is no longer a debate about history.
    It is sheer bullshit.
    You may be able to get away with this in the courtroom, where under the terms of the legal “game,” anything goes, but in a conversation among supposed friends, it is utter nonsense to attempt this kind of “bait-and-switch” tactic.
    I find it, and you, contemptible.
    PS: FWIW, I’m perfectly willing to define Genghis Khan as a “conservative,” and so I declare the right wing the more violent. Plus every slave trader and conquistador and Grand Inquisitor in history.
    PPS: Plus the bubonic plague, if needed to make up the numbers.

  686. McKT: If you are suddenly switching from talking about American leftists to talking about Stalin and Mao, etc., it is no longer a debate about history.
    It is sheer bullshit.
    You may be able to get away with this in the courtroom, where under the terms of the legal “game,” anything goes, but in a conversation among supposed friends, it is utter nonsense to attempt this kind of “bait-and-switch” tactic.
    I find it, and you, contemptible.
    PS: FWIW, I’m perfectly willing to define Genghis Khan as a “conservative,” and so I declare the right wing the more violent. Plus every slave trader and conquistador and Grand Inquisitor in history.
    PPS: Plus the bubonic plague, if needed to make up the numbers.

  687. PPPS: I forgot to mention King Leopold in the Belgian Congo. Or are you going to complain that he was really a socialist, too?

  688. PPPS: I forgot to mention King Leopold in the Belgian Congo. Or are you going to complain that he was really a socialist, too?

  689. The Great Khan created a bureaucracy and tons of regulations he forced his people to live by. He was a religious relativist. And look at his heirs. One’s family converted to Islam and ruled large parts of the greater Middle East for centuries in a rather fundamentalist way. Another overthrew centuries of conservative Chinese tradition with ‘reforms’ including affirmative action programs with the aim to increase social mobility. It took the Chinese originalists quite some time to undo most that. One part that stuck was the one that allowed Mao to build the foundations of his rise.
    Stalin came from Georgia, has HSH ever been there (don’t know which state HSH resides in).

  690. The Great Khan created a bureaucracy and tons of regulations he forced his people to live by. He was a religious relativist. And look at his heirs. One’s family converted to Islam and ruled large parts of the greater Middle East for centuries in a rather fundamentalist way. Another overthrew centuries of conservative Chinese tradition with ‘reforms’ including affirmative action programs with the aim to increase social mobility. It took the Chinese originalists quite some time to undo most that. One part that stuck was the one that allowed Mao to build the foundations of his rise.
    Stalin came from Georgia, has HSH ever been there (don’t know which state HSH resides in).

  693. Well, if Putin’s attacks on Georgia, Stalin’s homeland, a few years ago were a direct threat to the US (as per John the Son of Cain and his merry band) then it must have been the one next to Alabama. Maybe Sarah Palin saw the Caucasus from a second home in AL or SC.
    There was a joke around here in the time of Dubya that, if the US would get into a war with Lebanon, people should better cancel the Wagner Festival because someone would definitely confuse Bayreuth with Beirut planning the bombing campaign.

  694. Well, if Putin’s attacks on Georgia, Stalin’s homeland, a few years ago were a direct threat to the US (as per John the Son of Cain and his merry band) then it must have been the one next to Alabama. Maybe Sarah Palin saw the Caucasus from a second home in AL or SC.
    There was a joke around here in the time of Dubya that, if the US would get into a war with Lebanon, people should better cancel the Wagner Festival because someone would definitely confuse Bayreuth with Beirut planning the bombing campaign.

  699. By the way, I credit John Cole at Balloon Juice for the link regarding lab animals and their now secret lives.

  700. By the way, I credit John Cole at Balloon Juice for the link regarding lab animals and their now secret lives.

  701. The Trump administration can’t even move toward revoking the DOL’s fiduciary rule without causing a giant clusterfnck.
    The rule was to become effective in April so final internal financial services co decisions on implementing compliance measures needed to be made now (really a few weeks ago), but they don’t know what to do as all Trump’s EO said was to direct the DOL to conduct a “study.” Draft EO that was circulating among financial services co’s said the rule would be delayed under a provision of the Administrative Procedures Act, but then when final EO came out that provision was missing (some bad prior judicial precedent).
    Then DOL issues a nonsencial one sentence press release talking about the “applicability of the date” that subsequently had to be withdrawn and re-issued that said essentially they’re looking at legal options for delaying the effective date (really, it’s ONE SENTENCE, and they can’t even do that right).
    Many in financial services industry just wanted certainty – is the rule going final or not – since they have been preparing to comply for a long time. Instead, they got neither and now are going to gear up to comply, only to possibly have it turn out they won’t have to.
    Not that we should feel bad for them, but here is a major issue for the business community (or at least financial services industry) and that can’t even get done without chaos. Feh.

  702. The Trump administration can’t even move toward revoking the DOL’s fiduciary rule without causing a giant clusterfnck.
    The rule was to become effective in April so final internal financial services co decisions on implementing compliance measures needed to be made now (really a few weeks ago), but they don’t know what to do as all Trump’s EO said was to direct the DOL to conduct a “study.” Draft EO that was circulating among financial services co’s said the rule would be delayed under a provision of the Administrative Procedures Act, but then when final EO came out that provision was missing (some bad prior judicial precedent).
    Then DOL issues a nonsencial one sentence press release talking about the “applicability of the date” that subsequently had to be withdrawn and re-issued that said essentially they’re looking at legal options for delaying the effective date (really, it’s ONE SENTENCE, and they can’t even do that right).
    Many in financial services industry just wanted certainty – is the rule going final or not – since they have been preparing to comply for a long time. Instead, they got neither and now are going to gear up to comply, only to possibly have it turn out they won’t have to.
    Not that we should feel bad for them, but here is a major issue for the business community (or at least financial services industry) and that can’t even get done without chaos. Feh.

  703. Sometimes, this is just too easy. I studied history too. Maybe you missed this class: “>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism
    You know, the more I think about it, the more convinced I become that the problem is that some of us have been speaking completely different languages, and that this may in fact be a nationwide problem. For someone like McKinney (intelligent, well-educated, not a far-right wingnut) to talk about “the left” as he does, while including the most extreme examples of power-mad psychopathy conveniently continuing to masquerade under a leftist (usually communist) flag, is like the rest of us talking about “the right” and including Hitler, Mussolini and Franco, also Genghis Khan and King Leopold (thanks dr ngo and Hartmut). And by the way, if he does it, one has to assume many others of the “moderate right” are doing the same thing.
    Now I have no background in political theory and philosophy, unlike I am rather sure many of you have, but even I can see that this is ridiculous and prevents meaningful dialogue. It’s possible McKinney may not check in on this thread again until Monday if at all, but when and if he does, can anybody suggest how we can define terms so that we can go back to some kind of discussion which makes sense? That’s if enough of you think it’s worthwhile? Obviously I do, in order that people don’t just withdraw inside their own barricades in mutual antagonism and incomprehension.

  704. Sometimes, this is just too easy. I studied history too. Maybe you missed this class: “>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism
    You know, the more I think about it, the more convinced I become that the problem is that some of us have been speaking completely different languages, and that this may in fact be a nationwide problem. For someone like McKinney (intelligent, well-educated, not a far-right wingnut) to talk about “the left” as he does, while including the most extreme examples of power-mad psychopathy conveniently continuing to masquerade under a leftist (usually communist) flag, is like the rest of us talking about “the right” and including Hitler, Mussolini and Franco, also Genghis Khan and King Leopold (thanks dr ngo and Hartmut). And by the way, if he does it, one has to assume many others of the “moderate right” are doing the same thing.
    Now I have no background in political theory and philosophy, unlike I am rather sure many of you have, but even I can see that this is ridiculous and prevents meaningful dialogue. It’s possible McKinney may not check in on this thread again until Monday if at all, but when and if he does, can anybody suggest how we can define terms so that we can go back to some kind of discussion which makes sense? That’s if enough of you think it’s worthwhile? Obviously I do, in order that people don’t just withdraw inside their own barricades in mutual antagonism and incomprehension.

  705. Many in financial services industry just wanted certainty – is the rule going final or not – since they have been preparing to comply for a long time.
    Yes, businesses prefer certainty. If only because it is more pleasant to be able to plan, rather than running around hysterically in react mode all the time.
    In this particular case, it seems like a pretty easy call. They’ve already gotten it together to follow this rule. It requires zero effort to go forward, whether they are legally compelled to or not.
    And there is nothing in the EO (could be nothing in the EO, as far as I can see; even if it had been well drafted) to forbid them from behaving in this fashion. Sure, they might lose a few dollars by putting their customers’/clients’ interests first. But the cost of changing paths at this point would probably be higher — it takes time to train all those staff on the new way to behave, and that has to be pretty much completed by now.
    I suspect that sentiments in the financial services industry are split between “well at least he seems to be on our side” and “are we going to have 4 years of the gang who can’t shoot straight?!?” With a large majority leaning strongly towards the latter.

  706. Many in financial services industry just wanted certainty – is the rule going final or not – since they have been preparing to comply for a long time.
    Yes, businesses prefer certainty. If only because it is more pleasant to be able to plan, rather than running around hysterically in react mode all the time.
    In this particular case, it seems like a pretty easy call. They’ve already gotten it together to follow this rule. It requires zero effort to go forward, whether they are legally compelled to or not.
    And there is nothing in the EO (could be nothing in the EO, as far as I can see; even if it had been well drafted) to forbid them from behaving in this fashion. Sure, they might lose a few dollars by putting their customers’/clients’ interests first. But the cost of changing paths at this point would probably be higher — it takes time to train all those staff on the new way to behave, and that has to be pretty much completed by now.
    I suspect that sentiments in the financial services industry are split between “well at least he seems to be on our side” and “are we going to have 4 years of the gang who can’t shoot straight?!?” With a large majority leaning strongly towards the latter.

  707. wj: I would also suspect that “putting their customers’/clients’ interests first” would play rather well in their advertising campaigns.
    Post-EO, how many of those financial firms want to come out and say the opposite? And if they just try and hunker down and not say anything, their competitors might say it for them.

  708. wj: I would also suspect that “putting their customers’/clients’ interests first” would play rather well in their advertising campaigns.
    Post-EO, how many of those financial firms want to come out and say the opposite? And if they just try and hunker down and not say anything, their competitors might say it for them.

  709. Snarki, my thoughts as well.
    But I’m sure that they are not delighted with the ineptitude on display in this (and other) EOs, etc. A loose cannon is a very uncomfortable companion on deck. Even if you think you are (maybe) far enough away, from where it is now, to not be in immediate danger of being smashed into.

  710. Snarki, my thoughts as well.
    But I’m sure that they are not delighted with the ineptitude on display in this (and other) EOs, etc. A loose cannon is a very uncomfortable companion on deck. Even if you think you are (maybe) far enough away, from where it is now, to not be in immediate danger of being smashed into.

  711. “It’s possible McKinney may not check in on this thread again until Monday if at all, but when and if he does, can anybody suggest how we can define terms…”
    I find this a difficult thing to come o grips with. There are examples that are “right wing” like attacking an abortion clinic that I am willing to define as radical right wing extremism, it is trying to support a right wing anti abortion agenda in an unacceptably extreme way. I am less sanguine when a black church gets burned down defining that as “right wing extremists”. It seems to have little political motivation as there is no right wing agenda item it serves to promote, most of the attacks are lone racists and racism is not owned by the “right”.
    What defines a militia group as being “right wing”, aside from being pro second amendment they have very little in common with the “right wing Republicans”. But , more important, I and many people like me would consider our political views right of center and strongly reject any militia movement or white supremacist group.
    I’m rambling but I think in reasonable discussion to tie the left wing to Lenin or Castro or Hitler is pretty far out there, as is tying the right to whatever your choice is. All the violence so far in 2017 has come from the left so it really does depend on the length of your historical perspective.

  712. “It’s possible McKinney may not check in on this thread again until Monday if at all, but when and if he does, can anybody suggest how we can define terms…”
    I find this a difficult thing to come o grips with. There are examples that are “right wing” like attacking an abortion clinic that I am willing to define as radical right wing extremism, it is trying to support a right wing anti abortion agenda in an unacceptably extreme way. I am less sanguine when a black church gets burned down defining that as “right wing extremists”. It seems to have little political motivation as there is no right wing agenda item it serves to promote, most of the attacks are lone racists and racism is not owned by the “right”.
    What defines a militia group as being “right wing”, aside from being pro second amendment they have very little in common with the “right wing Republicans”. But , more important, I and many people like me would consider our political views right of center and strongly reject any militia movement or white supremacist group.
    I’m rambling but I think in reasonable discussion to tie the left wing to Lenin or Castro or Hitler is pretty far out there, as is tying the right to whatever your choice is. All the violence so far in 2017 has come from the left so it really does depend on the length of your historical perspective.

  713. Marty, it is certainly true that some extreme actions are not in aid of an agenda item of the moderate majority of a political position. But that doesn’t mean that it is not in aid of some political agenda. Nor that we cannot observe which part of the political spectrum comes closer to that fringe agenda.
    It seems to me that it is not really necessary for the majority to embrace that particular agenda item for it to belong to their end of the political spectrum. A part that the vast majority there utterly abhor, perhaps. But their end of the house nonetheless.
    Note that this is every bit as true on the left as on the right. Burners of black churches “belong” to the right the same way that violent anarchists “belong” to the left. In both cases, it seems pretty clear where they will go trolling for future converts and where they will not bother — more likely to go looking for targets.
    Is it unfair to tar all of one side with the actions of its nut cases? Sure. But it is no more unfair when one side does it than when the other does.

  714. Marty, it is certainly true that some extreme actions are not in aid of an agenda item of the moderate majority of a political position. But that doesn’t mean that it is not in aid of some political agenda. Nor that we cannot observe which part of the political spectrum comes closer to that fringe agenda.
    It seems to me that it is not really necessary for the majority to embrace that particular agenda item for it to belong to their end of the political spectrum. A part that the vast majority there utterly abhor, perhaps. But their end of the house nonetheless.
    Note that this is every bit as true on the left as on the right. Burners of black churches “belong” to the right the same way that violent anarchists “belong” to the left. In both cases, it seems pretty clear where they will go trolling for future converts and where they will not bother — more likely to go looking for targets.
    Is it unfair to tar all of one side with the actions of its nut cases? Sure. But it is no more unfair when one side does it than when the other does.

  717. A conservative former talk radio host expresses regret:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/04/opinion/sunday/why-nobody-cares-the-president-is-lying.html?_r=0
    All administrations lie, but what we are seeing here is an attack on credibility itself.
    The Russian dissident and chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov drew upon long familiarity with that process when he tweeted: “The point of modern propaganda isn’t only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.”
    This is a process we have, thus far, escaped in the UK, but I do see elements of the same polarisation, and the beginnings of disdain for. reported news which doesn’t accord with ones own political point of view.

  718. A conservative former talk radio host expresses regret:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/04/opinion/sunday/why-nobody-cares-the-president-is-lying.html?_r=0
    All administrations lie, but what we are seeing here is an attack on credibility itself.
    The Russian dissident and chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov drew upon long familiarity with that process when he tweeted: “The point of modern propaganda isn’t only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.”
    This is a process we have, thus far, escaped in the UK, but I do see elements of the same polarisation, and the beginnings of disdain for. reported news which doesn’t accord with ones own political point of view.

  719. Marty opined All the violence so far in 2017 has come from the left
    http://countercurrentnews.com/2017/01/breaking-texas-mosque-just-burnt-down-hours-after-trump-signs-muslim-ban/
    http://europe.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743?rm=eu
    One possible reason that there violence from the left is because that’s who is protesting. When you are happy with the way things are, you generally don’t protest. Here who is not protesting
    Meanwhile, white supremacists continue to express their deep appreciation for President Trump and his administration’s plan to radically change the CVE program. “My hands are shaking right now as I prepare this article – I’m just that unbelievably happy,” announced neo-Nazi website Infostormer. “This measure would be the first step to us going fully mainstream, and beginning the process of entering the government in full-force without the fear of being attacked, financially-assailed, and intimidated into silence by the nefarious Jews.”
    At neo-Nazi site Daily Stormer, editor Andrew Anglin announced to readers, “Donald Trump is setting us free.” He continued, “This is absolutely a signal of favor to us. We are not a threat to America, we are American patriots trying to save this country. It is also a slap in the face to the kikes of the SPLC and the ADL who pushed for us to be classified along with actual Islamic terrorists as a way to legally justify outrageous abuses against us by the federal government.” (In the same article, Anglin called the actions of white supremacist terrorist Dylann Roof, who was recently sentenced to death for massacring African American worshipers at a church, “silly” but “perfectly understandable if you put it in context.”)
    https://mediamatters.org/blog/2017/02/03/exciting-right-wing-trump-downplays-threat-right-wing-terror/215226

  720. Marty opined All the violence so far in 2017 has come from the left
    http://countercurrentnews.com/2017/01/breaking-texas-mosque-just-burnt-down-hours-after-trump-signs-muslim-ban/
    http://europe.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743?rm=eu
    One possible reason that there violence from the left is because that’s who is protesting. When you are happy with the way things are, you generally don’t protest. Here who is not protesting
    Meanwhile, white supremacists continue to express their deep appreciation for President Trump and his administration’s plan to radically change the CVE program. “My hands are shaking right now as I prepare this article – I’m just that unbelievably happy,” announced neo-Nazi website Infostormer. “This measure would be the first step to us going fully mainstream, and beginning the process of entering the government in full-force without the fear of being attacked, financially-assailed, and intimidated into silence by the nefarious Jews.”
    At neo-Nazi site Daily Stormer, editor Andrew Anglin announced to readers, “Donald Trump is setting us free.” He continued, “This is absolutely a signal of favor to us. We are not a threat to America, we are American patriots trying to save this country. It is also a slap in the face to the kikes of the SPLC and the ADL who pushed for us to be classified along with actual Islamic terrorists as a way to legally justify outrageous abuses against us by the federal government.” (In the same article, Anglin called the actions of white supremacist terrorist Dylann Roof, who was recently sentenced to death for massacring African American worshipers at a church, “silly” but “perfectly understandable if you put it in context.”)
    https://mediamatters.org/blog/2017/02/03/exciting-right-wing-trump-downplays-threat-right-wing-terror/215226

  721. I’m impressed by Virginia’s attorney general:
    “…This is a monumental case involving a monumental abuse of executive power. So it is worth remembering another monumental case, Plessy v. Ferguson, that enshrined in American law — for more than a half century — the approval of government-mandated racial segregation.
    The majority in Plessy reasoned that government-mandated segregation “does not discriminate against either race, but prescribes a rule applicable alike to white and colored citizens.” We admire the first Justice Harlan for putting the lie to that claim:
    “Everyone knows” what was being justified, he said. The same is true here.
    And what Justice Harlan said next may be even more important for Twenty-First Century Americans to remember: “the seeds of race hate” should not be “planted under the sanction of law.”
    In this case, the seeds of hate towards Muslims are “planted under the sanction” of the executive order. Those seeds must be rooted out, as soon as possible, lest they germinate and poison more Americans.
    The executive order was conceived in bigotry and does not reflect who we are as a people.”

  722. I’m impressed by Virginia’s attorney general:
    “…This is a monumental case involving a monumental abuse of executive power. So it is worth remembering another monumental case, Plessy v. Ferguson, that enshrined in American law — for more than a half century — the approval of government-mandated racial segregation.
    The majority in Plessy reasoned that government-mandated segregation “does not discriminate against either race, but prescribes a rule applicable alike to white and colored citizens.” We admire the first Justice Harlan for putting the lie to that claim:
    “Everyone knows” what was being justified, he said. The same is true here.
    And what Justice Harlan said next may be even more important for Twenty-First Century Americans to remember: “the seeds of race hate” should not be “planted under the sanction of law.”
    In this case, the seeds of hate towards Muslims are “planted under the sanction” of the executive order. Those seeds must be rooted out, as soon as possible, lest they germinate and poison more Americans.
    The executive order was conceived in bigotry and does not reflect who we are as a people.”

  723. I await serious men of principle and “conservatives” Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell, not to mention Orrin Hatch and Charles Grassley, to condemn President Donald Trump’s attack on a sitting federal judge, threatening an independent judiciary and the rule of law.
    I’m not doing anything today so I’m willing to wait.

  724. I await serious men of principle and “conservatives” Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell, not to mention Orrin Hatch and Charles Grassley, to condemn President Donald Trump’s attack on a sitting federal judge, threatening an independent judiciary and the rule of law.
    I’m not doing anything today so I’m willing to wait.

  731. All the violence so far in 2017 has come from the left
    Haven’t gone and done my homework on this, but I’m guessing this is false.
    If we want to set the way-back machine to include the entire post-election period, it’s plainly false, and you damned well know it is.
    It’s fine that you don’t endorse militias and white supremacists. They are, nonetheless, right wing phenomena, whether you find that a “difficult thing to come to grips with” or not.

  732. All the violence so far in 2017 has come from the left
    Haven’t gone and done my homework on this, but I’m guessing this is false.
    If we want to set the way-back machine to include the entire post-election period, it’s plainly false, and you damned well know it is.
    It’s fine that you don’t endorse militias and white supremacists. They are, nonetheless, right wing phenomena, whether you find that a “difficult thing to come to grips with” or not.

  737. It is Monday and I will do what I can in a limited amount of time
    The fact is, the left has historically, at the fringe and not-so-fringe been every bit as violent and intolerant as the right.
    This is what I said, to keep this focused.
    McKinney, since lots of us here refer to ourselves roughly as lefties (although actually I think I’m more of a liberal) do you really think we are aligned in any way or have any resemblance to the kind of philosophy or ideology referred to in that article?
    No, nor do conservatives have anything in common with lynch mobs that pre-date WWII, but you wouldn’t know it from many of the comments here. That said, the modern, Western governing left has is roots in Marxist socialism and the Early 20th Progressive Movement. The intellectual left in the US was informed, more than most here will admit, by Soviet influence in the 30’s. That continued through the end of the Soviet union, but Marxists still hold positions within academia that bear more than a passing resemblance to standard Soviet economic thinking. The British Labor Party and the union movement in the UK, back in the day, had its own issues with Soviet influence. A much diluted form of Soviet influence is found in recent and current US lefty sympathies for Central and South American and Cuban revolutionary movements.
    The left, in very general terms and unlike the post WWII US conservative movement, is much more of an international school of thought.
    So, when we talk about a history of violence between competing philosophies in the West and particularly in the US, there is a somewhat hazy, dotted line from then until now between early Marxism and Bernie Sanders. No such line of any kind can be drawn from National Socialism to, say, William F Buckley et al.
    If I am going to be stuck with White Supremacists and Nazis, you get stuck with anarchists and BLM related rioters.
    Hey, McKinney: who did Stalin have more in common with, FDR or Mussolini?
    In hindsight, neither. At the time, one person who could have answered that question was FDR Veep Henry Wallace.
    The reason fascism is labeled ‘right wing’ is because it stood in opposition to Soviet communism, which was then understood as the far, far left. Fascism has as much to do with free market, limited government, strong national defense conservatives as it does with Hinduism.
    McKT: If you are suddenly switching from talking about American leftists to talking about Stalin and Mao, etc., it is no longer a debate about history.
    It is sheer bullshit.
    As a professional historian, the weight of your argument has born me down. Well played. I surrender.
    It’s possible McKinney may not check in on this thread again until Monday if at all, but when and if he does, can anybody suggest how we can define terms so that we can go back to some kind of discussion which makes sense? That’s if enough of you think it’s worthwhile? Obviously I do, in order that people don’t just withdraw inside their own barricades in mutual antagonism and incomprehension.
    They ought to make you a headliner here. I’ve taken as much time as I have to briefly and superficially lay out my sense of the geneses of left and right in the US. The left–particularly the farther left one goes on the spectrum–does emanate, in considerable part, from the birthplace of formal socialism, the USSR. Most lefties and liberals in the US recognize constitutional and free market limits on doctrine and the vast majority would eat their young before going the Soviet route. My larger point is that all of the current bleating about right wing violence ignores a long and bloody history from the left, and the left is far more international in character than is US conservatism.
    I did not proof read this very well. I will fix errors later.

  738. It is Monday and I will do what I can in a limited amount of time
    The fact is, the left has historically, at the fringe and not-so-fringe been every bit as violent and intolerant as the right.
    This is what I said, to keep this focused.
    McKinney, since lots of us here refer to ourselves roughly as lefties (although actually I think I’m more of a liberal) do you really think we are aligned in any way or have any resemblance to the kind of philosophy or ideology referred to in that article?
    No, nor do conservatives have anything in common with lynch mobs that pre-date WWII, but you wouldn’t know it from many of the comments here. That said, the modern, Western governing left has is roots in Marxist socialism and the Early 20th Progressive Movement. The intellectual left in the US was informed, more than most here will admit, by Soviet influence in the 30’s. That continued through the end of the Soviet union, but Marxists still hold positions within academia that bear more than a passing resemblance to standard Soviet economic thinking. The British Labor Party and the union movement in the UK, back in the day, had its own issues with Soviet influence. A much diluted form of Soviet influence is found in recent and current US lefty sympathies for Central and South American and Cuban revolutionary movements.
    The left, in very general terms and unlike the post WWII US conservative movement, is much more of an international school of thought.
    So, when we talk about a history of violence between competing philosophies in the West and particularly in the US, there is a somewhat hazy, dotted line from then until now between early Marxism and Bernie Sanders. No such line of any kind can be drawn from National Socialism to, say, William F Buckley et al.
    If I am going to be stuck with White Supremacists and Nazis, you get stuck with anarchists and BLM related rioters.
    Hey, McKinney: who did Stalin have more in common with, FDR or Mussolini?
    In hindsight, neither. At the time, one person who could have answered that question was FDR Veep Henry Wallace.
    The reason fascism is labeled ‘right wing’ is because it stood in opposition to Soviet communism, which was then understood as the far, far left. Fascism has as much to do with free market, limited government, strong national defense conservatives as it does with Hinduism.
    McKT: If you are suddenly switching from talking about American leftists to talking about Stalin and Mao, etc., it is no longer a debate about history.
    It is sheer bullshit.
    As a professional historian, the weight of your argument has born me down. Well played. I surrender.
    It’s possible McKinney may not check in on this thread again until Monday if at all, but when and if he does, can anybody suggest how we can define terms so that we can go back to some kind of discussion which makes sense? That’s if enough of you think it’s worthwhile? Obviously I do, in order that people don’t just withdraw inside their own barricades in mutual antagonism and incomprehension.
    They ought to make you a headliner here. I’ve taken as much time as I have to briefly and superficially lay out my sense of the geneses of left and right in the US. The left–particularly the farther left one goes on the spectrum–does emanate, in considerable part, from the birthplace of formal socialism, the USSR. Most lefties and liberals in the US recognize constitutional and free market limits on doctrine and the vast majority would eat their young before going the Soviet route. My larger point is that all of the current bleating about right wing violence ignores a long and bloody history from the left, and the left is far more international in character than is US conservatism.
    I did not proof read this very well. I will fix errors later.

  739. Fascism has as much to do with free market, limited government, strong national defense conservatives as it does with Hinduism.
    Personally, I would say that fascism is right-wing, but not conservative.
    As far as the relationship of Stalin and Mao to the current-day American left, I would say that to answer that question you have to first find the current-day American left.
    Even a guy like Chomsky comes out of something more like the Frankfurt school than out of Stalin.
    And yes, there were Stalinists among the American left of the 30’s. And, there were Nazis among the American right of the 30’s. Never mind the American right, there were Nazis in the PTA. The Nazis sold out freaking Madison Square Garden in ’39. Members of my family used to have a summer place in Yaphank NY, Google that place name up when you have a chance. It’s interesting.
    In the immortal words of Yogi Berra, you can look it up.
    Maybe we can just focus on today. Might be easier.

  740. Fascism has as much to do with free market, limited government, strong national defense conservatives as it does with Hinduism.
    Personally, I would say that fascism is right-wing, but not conservative.
    As far as the relationship of Stalin and Mao to the current-day American left, I would say that to answer that question you have to first find the current-day American left.
    Even a guy like Chomsky comes out of something more like the Frankfurt school than out of Stalin.
    And yes, there were Stalinists among the American left of the 30’s. And, there were Nazis among the American right of the 30’s. Never mind the American right, there were Nazis in the PTA. The Nazis sold out freaking Madison Square Garden in ’39. Members of my family used to have a summer place in Yaphank NY, Google that place name up when you have a chance. It’s interesting.
    In the immortal words of Yogi Berra, you can look it up.
    Maybe we can just focus on today. Might be easier.

  741. The left, in very general terms and unlike the post WWII US conservative movement, is much more of an international school of thought.
    The folks in Europe can probably give more in the way of chapter and verse. But the “left” in the United States doesn’t look that much like the left there. The label is the same, but the positions are only marginally similar.
    For example, Bernie Sanders may call himself “a socialist”. But no European socialist would hold similar positions on an array of issues from capitalism to guns.
    There are a few issues where they might agree. But then, there are issues where Sanders agrees with some extremely conservative folks here.

  742. The left, in very general terms and unlike the post WWII US conservative movement, is much more of an international school of thought.
    The folks in Europe can probably give more in the way of chapter and verse. But the “left” in the United States doesn’t look that much like the left there. The label is the same, but the positions are only marginally similar.
    For example, Bernie Sanders may call himself “a socialist”. But no European socialist would hold similar positions on an array of issues from capitalism to guns.
    There are a few issues where they might agree. But then, there are issues where Sanders agrees with some extremely conservative folks here.

  745. This entire discussion is just a distraction from the wave of moderate and centrist violence that our nation is being subjected to.

  746. This entire discussion is just a distraction from the wave of moderate and centrist violence that our nation is being subjected to.

  749. Or the other 1,000+ acts of harassment, assault, and violence of all sorts, from the right, that have occurred since the election.
    I go back and forth about this BS with family members. There are knuckleheads everywhere. The knuckleheads on the right, nowadays, are actually more likely to be violent than the knuckleheads on the left, who seem to mostly march around and then forget to vote.
    But if you’re looking for knuckleheads and bad actors, there is plenty of low-hanging fruit to go around, on any side you care to choose.
    If I were to have my druthers, everyone would learn Aikido up to a black belt level in high school gym class, so that they could basically defend themselves from idiots without killing anybody, and folks attending public meetings would have to check their guns at the door. But I don’t get my druthers.
    In spite of all the big talk, *in general* we are not in an environment where political violence makes that much of a difference one way or the other. Emphasis on *in general*, if it’s your place getting burned down, I’m sure your perspective is different.
    Let’s keep it that way, and see if we can’t focus on the substance.

  750. Or the other 1,000+ acts of harassment, assault, and violence of all sorts, from the right, that have occurred since the election.
    I go back and forth about this BS with family members. There are knuckleheads everywhere. The knuckleheads on the right, nowadays, are actually more likely to be violent than the knuckleheads on the left, who seem to mostly march around and then forget to vote.
    But if you’re looking for knuckleheads and bad actors, there is plenty of low-hanging fruit to go around, on any side you care to choose.
    If I were to have my druthers, everyone would learn Aikido up to a black belt level in high school gym class, so that they could basically defend themselves from idiots without killing anybody, and folks attending public meetings would have to check their guns at the door. But I don’t get my druthers.
    In spite of all the big talk, *in general* we are not in an environment where political violence makes that much of a difference one way or the other. Emphasis on *in general*, if it’s your place getting burned down, I’m sure your perspective is different.
    Let’s keep it that way, and see if we can’t focus on the substance.

  751. folks attending public meetings would have to check their guns at the door.
    Well, they do if they are attending meetings of the (Republican-controlled) Congress of the United States. 😉

  752. folks attending public meetings would have to check their guns at the door.
    Well, they do if they are attending meetings of the (Republican-controlled) Congress of the United States. 😉

  753. “All the violence so far in 2017 has come from the left.”
    Well, that’s some fake news right there, as Doc Science points out.
    I’m still waiting for heavy-duty automatic weaponry, a la the Bundys (who demonstrated that violence and mayhem gets affirmative legislative action underway for conservative principles and policies) and the Oath Keepers to show up in the so-called Left’s hands on the streets, only the Left would choose pink for the color-coordinated gear, because it’s always pinkies up with the Left:
    http://news.tacticalgear.com/a-pink-ak-47-kind-of-birthday/
    If Hillary Clinton had won the election, the radical conservative Right, and I don’t mean just the white supremacists boot-licking trump, I mean Republicans, would have shot her dead in the head by now. I guarantee it. Why? Because trump, the reality show fascist clown, laid the groundwork, when asked if he would accept the election results, by warning, “We’ll see.” There was the signal for violence from on high.
    As it is, he can’t accept that he didn’t win with 100% of the vote.
    And then we would have had veiled mumbling around here that, well, if we power-brokers on the Left wing of the Democratic Party had only found a better candidate than crooked Hillary, we might have avoided such unpleasantness.
    Tim Kaine would still be in the hospital in a coma from his right-wing bullet wounds.
    See, here’s the deal. It cracks me up that when words like “fascist” are thrown around at OBWI, like they were at Obama for eight f*cking years by Republicans, a couple a’ three decent moderate conservatives, by today’s standards, at OBWI, take it personally.
    Hell, the mainstream Republican Party as it exists today, let alone the crazy fascists (no, they aren’t Hitler yet, because he had cooler paraphernalia and his own funny walk and that arm thing he did)) now in the ascendancy abandoned the lot of you a long time ago for one heresy or another that you guys have committed along the way, including even fraternizing with we Pol Pots of OBWI.
    Now, I concede that the professional killers throughout history who made the trains run on time from the Left, whatever that is, have the edge in the cumulative body count over the professional killers on the Right, whatever that is, who made the trains run on time, and used them to murder the Jews, but what I don’t get is how the fascist right views that as a deficit that needs to be rectified instead of an advertising slogan, a la Avis, to be proud of.
    I still haven’t heard an adequate explanation from MCTX or Marty regarding how trump got past your 15 better choices (not including Cruz) in the Republican primaries. What? Were you guys asleep at the switch?
    What was so attractive about the republican party and republicans that trump fought so hard to THEIR leader? He must have liked the cut of their jibs. I have some guesses.
    I also don’t really care either for the line-drawing that just because a few trump positions such as the Gorsuch nomination and the massive tax cuts coming down the pike are somehow off limits for criticism from me because they are somehow mainstream conservative reasoning and THAT would somehow indict normal conservatives as being somehow like trump.
    Well? In too many ways, Republicans and trump have similar views, though I give kudos to trump for his hamfisted superiority in the honesty category, but I can wait five minutes until he says the opposite to retract that judgement.
    MCTX and Marty aren’t fascists. You aren’t even republicans.
    And Sebastian gets it, even though trump threw him the LGBT bone …. for now.
    By the way, the first jerks the mainstream Left should take out with violence are the anarchists making them look bad by breaking Starbucks windows.
    I’m not holding my breath, considering that the Left, that bugaboo, treated insurrectionist anarchists like Bundy with kid gloves, while crickets chirped on the conservative right.
    But once the anarchists are down for the count, the bigger, more dangerous fish can be fried.

  754. “All the violence so far in 2017 has come from the left.”
    Well, that’s some fake news right there, as Doc Science points out.
    I’m still waiting for heavy-duty automatic weaponry, a la the Bundys (who demonstrated that violence and mayhem gets affirmative legislative action underway for conservative principles and policies) and the Oath Keepers to show up in the so-called Left’s hands on the streets, only the Left would choose pink for the color-coordinated gear, because it’s always pinkies up with the Left:
    http://news.tacticalgear.com/a-pink-ak-47-kind-of-birthday/
    If Hillary Clinton had won the election, the radical conservative Right, and I don’t mean just the white supremacists boot-licking trump, I mean Republicans, would have shot her dead in the head by now. I guarantee it. Why? Because trump, the reality show fascist clown, laid the groundwork, when asked if he would accept the election results, by warning, “We’ll see.” There was the signal for violence from on high.
    As it is, he can’t accept that he didn’t win with 100% of the vote.
    And then we would have had veiled mumbling around here that, well, if we power-brokers on the Left wing of the Democratic Party had only found a better candidate than crooked Hillary, we might have avoided such unpleasantness.
    Tim Kaine would still be in the hospital in a coma from his right-wing bullet wounds.
    See, here’s the deal. It cracks me up that when words like “fascist” are thrown around at OBWI, like they were at Obama for eight f*cking years by Republicans, a couple a’ three decent moderate conservatives, by today’s standards, at OBWI, take it personally.
    Hell, the mainstream Republican Party as it exists today, let alone the crazy fascists (no, they aren’t Hitler yet, because he had cooler paraphernalia and his own funny walk and that arm thing he did)) now in the ascendancy abandoned the lot of you a long time ago for one heresy or another that you guys have committed along the way, including even fraternizing with we Pol Pots of OBWI.
    Now, I concede that the professional killers throughout history who made the trains run on time from the Left, whatever that is, have the edge in the cumulative body count over the professional killers on the Right, whatever that is, who made the trains run on time, and used them to murder the Jews, but what I don’t get is how the fascist right views that as a deficit that needs to be rectified instead of an advertising slogan, a la Avis, to be proud of.
    I still haven’t heard an adequate explanation from MCTX or Marty regarding how trump got past your 15 better choices (not including Cruz) in the Republican primaries. What? Were you guys asleep at the switch?
    What was so attractive about the republican party and republicans that trump fought so hard to THEIR leader? He must have liked the cut of their jibs. I have some guesses.
    I also don’t really care either for the line-drawing that just because a few trump positions such as the Gorsuch nomination and the massive tax cuts coming down the pike are somehow off limits for criticism from me because they are somehow mainstream conservative reasoning and THAT would somehow indict normal conservatives as being somehow like trump.
    Well? In too many ways, Republicans and trump have similar views, though I give kudos to trump for his hamfisted superiority in the honesty category, but I can wait five minutes until he says the opposite to retract that judgement.
    MCTX and Marty aren’t fascists. You aren’t even republicans.
    And Sebastian gets it, even though trump threw him the LGBT bone …. for now.
    By the way, the first jerks the mainstream Left should take out with violence are the anarchists making them look bad by breaking Starbucks windows.
    I’m not holding my breath, considering that the Left, that bugaboo, treated insurrectionist anarchists like Bundy with kid gloves, while crickets chirped on the conservative right.
    But once the anarchists are down for the count, the bigger, more dangerous fish can be fried.

  755. MCTX and Marty aren’t fascists. You aren’t even republicans.
    Be careful there Count. Don’t forget the scene in the Sound of Music where the Count (ha!) says to Rolf ‘”you’ll never be one of them”/ Just what does Rolf do after that???

  756. MCTX and Marty aren’t fascists. You aren’t even republicans.
    Be careful there Count. Don’t forget the scene in the Sound of Music where the Count (ha!) says to Rolf ‘”you’ll never be one of them”/ Just what does Rolf do after that???

  757. Frum makes an acute point about the ‘leftist’ violence here, in a sensible article about possible tactics against Trump:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/how-to-beat-trump/515736/
    Look at how Trump positioned the University of California—whose out-numbered police battled to defend the speech rights of one of the most provocative and obnoxious of Trump’s minions—as a target for retaliation.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/827112633224544256?
    Trump’s statement is precisely the opposite of the truth. But it’s become dogma in Trumpworld, including even to many Trump-skeptical conservatives. Protesters may be up against something never before seen in American life: a president and an administration determined to seize on unrest to legitimate repression. Those protesters are not ready for it. Few Americans are.

  758. Frum makes an acute point about the ‘leftist’ violence here, in a sensible article about possible tactics against Trump:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/how-to-beat-trump/515736/
    Look at how Trump positioned the University of California—whose out-numbered police battled to defend the speech rights of one of the most provocative and obnoxious of Trump’s minions—as a target for retaliation.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/827112633224544256?
    Trump’s statement is precisely the opposite of the truth. But it’s become dogma in Trumpworld, including even to many Trump-skeptical conservatives. Protesters may be up against something never before seen in American life: a president and an administration determined to seize on unrest to legitimate repression. Those protesters are not ready for it. Few Americans are.

  759. at the women’s march in boston, people went out of their way to make positive contact with the cops. say hello, say thank you, shake hands if the officer’s attention was sufficiently free for that. some folks handed out dunkin donuts gift cards, which is maybe playing to a negative cop stereotype, but nonetheless they were accepted with a smile.
    it’s a good practice. don’t make enemies you don’t need to make. especially cops, in general they are there to help you.
    we don’t need the second coming of chicago ’68.

  760. at the women’s march in boston, people went out of their way to make positive contact with the cops. say hello, say thank you, shake hands if the officer’s attention was sufficiently free for that. some folks handed out dunkin donuts gift cards, which is maybe playing to a negative cop stereotype, but nonetheless they were accepted with a smile.
    it’s a good practice. don’t make enemies you don’t need to make. especially cops, in general they are there to help you.
    we don’t need the second coming of chicago ’68.

  761. I don’t have much of a problem with MCKinney’s last post, but there is a direct connection between Buckley and white racism– National Review was sided with the white racists in the 60’s. It does oversimplify to link post Stalin lefties with Stalin. I don’t think Soviet communism was romanticized much here after the 50’s. Castro and Ho Chi Minh yes.
    On Nazism and fascism, I think the 30’s American right probably had as much connection with them as the American left had with Stalin, but this is more a vague impression and I am not feeling committed enough to Internet squabbling to do the work necessary to back that up. I might be wrong, but I think I am at least partly right.

  762. I don’t have much of a problem with MCKinney’s last post, but there is a direct connection between Buckley and white racism– National Review was sided with the white racists in the 60’s. It does oversimplify to link post Stalin lefties with Stalin. I don’t think Soviet communism was romanticized much here after the 50’s. Castro and Ho Chi Minh yes.
    On Nazism and fascism, I think the 30’s American right probably had as much connection with them as the American left had with Stalin, but this is more a vague impression and I am not feeling committed enough to Internet squabbling to do the work necessary to back that up. I might be wrong, but I think I am at least partly right.

  765. Anybody know how much Soros pays the ‘professional protesters’? I was thinking of retiring and taking up a part time job.

  766. Anybody know how much Soros pays the ‘professional protesters’? I was thinking of retiring and taking up a part time job.

  769. “was sided”
    Pretty sure that was my iPad’s fault. Spell check was a Faustian bargain. First it was editorial control over blog comments. Next it will be autonomous killer drones.

  770. “was sided”
    Pretty sure that was my iPad’s fault. Spell check was a Faustian bargain. First it was editorial control over blog comments. Next it will be autonomous killer drones.

  771. Conservatives, get yer crazies in hand, or f*cking else!:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/02/07/open-thread-michiganmen-totally-not-terrorists/
    I love that OpenCarryMichigan, or whatever they call themselves, the jackasses, criticized these two hopeless romantics because they wore sunglasses while open carrying f*cking weapons in public as they carried out the perfectly logical endgame of conservative anti-government rhetoric… . flashing their deadly arms at the government’s first point-of-sale … the police department.
    BlackLivesMatter should be so patriotic.
    See, a black liberal would have shown up at the police department WITH sunglasses and wearing a keffiyeh but WITHOUT a weapon and would have been immediately brutalized.
    Why do only conservatives open carry military weaponry against the police?
    Explain, conservatives!
    What? I can’t hear you. Oh, you don’t approve of these guys’ behavior.
    Well then.

  772. Conservatives, get yer crazies in hand, or f*cking else!:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/02/07/open-thread-michiganmen-totally-not-terrorists/
    I love that OpenCarryMichigan, or whatever they call themselves, the jackasses, criticized these two hopeless romantics because they wore sunglasses while open carrying f*cking weapons in public as they carried out the perfectly logical endgame of conservative anti-government rhetoric… . flashing their deadly arms at the government’s first point-of-sale … the police department.
    BlackLivesMatter should be so patriotic.
    See, a black liberal would have shown up at the police department WITH sunglasses and wearing a keffiyeh but WITHOUT a weapon and would have been immediately brutalized.
    Why do only conservatives open carry military weaponry against the police?
    Explain, conservatives!
    What? I can’t hear you. Oh, you don’t approve of these guys’ behavior.
    Well then.

  777. Despite the insults, Trump was respecting the appeals process, Ryan said at his weekly press conference. [from Ugh’s link]
    Not quite clear how insults equate to “respect” in Ryan’s mind. (Maybe they are necessary to show respect in some cases?) Probably should get that clarified.
    Or was he just giving Trump credit for the fact that (probably to Trump’s intense frustration) the Executive Branch’s employees are not willing to just ignore a court order?

  778. Despite the insults, Trump was respecting the appeals process, Ryan said at his weekly press conference. [from Ugh’s link]
    Not quite clear how insults equate to “respect” in Ryan’s mind. (Maybe they are necessary to show respect in some cases?) Probably should get that clarified.
    Or was he just giving Trump credit for the fact that (probably to Trump’s intense frustration) the Executive Branch’s employees are not willing to just ignore a court order?

  781. These are the same GOPers who had a conniption fit when Loretta Lynch talked to Bill Clinton for 20 minutes about grandchildren – ZOMG RULE OF LAW RULE OF LAW RULE OF LAW RECUSE RECUSE RECUSE!!!
    Trump insulting and telling people to blame a federal judge should there be a terrorist attack in a case where the judge is deciding the legality of an executive order? Ah, whatever, the process is fine.

  782. These are the same GOPers who had a conniption fit when Loretta Lynch talked to Bill Clinton for 20 minutes about grandchildren – ZOMG RULE OF LAW RULE OF LAW RULE OF LAW RECUSE RECUSE RECUSE!!!
    Trump insulting and telling people to blame a federal judge should there be a terrorist attack in a case where the judge is deciding the legality of an executive order? Ah, whatever, the process is fine.

  785. Trump can say whatever he wants. We are free to ignore him.
    The immigration ban thing is in the courts, which is where it actually needs to be sorted out. It would have been better for him not to even try it on, but his having done so, I’m happy to see how the judicial system has stepped up and taken it on.
    If the CBP had continued to violate the court orders, or if any other arm of the feds had continued to defy the law, we’d really have a problem.
    Right now, we just have an egomaniac having a conniption. Annoying, but not a threat to the republic.

  786. Trump can say whatever he wants. We are free to ignore him.
    The immigration ban thing is in the courts, which is where it actually needs to be sorted out. It would have been better for him not to even try it on, but his having done so, I’m happy to see how the judicial system has stepped up and taken it on.
    If the CBP had continued to violate the court orders, or if any other arm of the feds had continued to defy the law, we’d really have a problem.
    Right now, we just have an egomaniac having a conniption. Annoying, but not a threat to the republic.

  787. I still haven’t heard an adequate explanation from MCTX or Marty regarding how trump got past your 15 better choices (not including Cruz) in the Republican primaries. What? Were you guys asleep at the switch?
    I did what I could. I’m sure Marty did too. The problem is border control. Most of the R wienies either flap-doodled and sounded like the Dems or tried to have it both ways. Trump was crystal clear on the topic and that did him a lot of good.
    I also don’t really care either for the line-drawing that just because a few trump positions such as the Gorsuch nomination and the massive tax cuts coming down the pike are somehow off limits for criticism from me because they are somehow mainstream conservative reasoning and THAT would somehow indict normal conservatives as being somehow like trump.
    No one is saying that. My point, way above, is that Trump will do some traditionally standard conservative things, e.g. Gorsuch and tax cuts, which many of us who don’t like him will nonetheless be ok with. Raising hell with us for not being sufficiently anti-Trump because we don’t disagree with everything the man says or does is counter-productive if you expect us to listen when, and if, the time really does come when he can be moved out lawfully. Fine to raise hell on the merits of anything he does, but don’t impose a litmus test on anti-Trump conservatives by requiring them to act like Progressives.
    MCTX and Marty aren’t fascists. You aren’t even republicans.
    I’m not sure Comrade Commissar LJ agrees.

  788. I still haven’t heard an adequate explanation from MCTX or Marty regarding how trump got past your 15 better choices (not including Cruz) in the Republican primaries. What? Were you guys asleep at the switch?
    I did what I could. I’m sure Marty did too. The problem is border control. Most of the R wienies either flap-doodled and sounded like the Dems or tried to have it both ways. Trump was crystal clear on the topic and that did him a lot of good.
    I also don’t really care either for the line-drawing that just because a few trump positions such as the Gorsuch nomination and the massive tax cuts coming down the pike are somehow off limits for criticism from me because they are somehow mainstream conservative reasoning and THAT would somehow indict normal conservatives as being somehow like trump.
    No one is saying that. My point, way above, is that Trump will do some traditionally standard conservative things, e.g. Gorsuch and tax cuts, which many of us who don’t like him will nonetheless be ok with. Raising hell with us for not being sufficiently anti-Trump because we don’t disagree with everything the man says or does is counter-productive if you expect us to listen when, and if, the time really does come when he can be moved out lawfully. Fine to raise hell on the merits of anything he does, but don’t impose a litmus test on anti-Trump conservatives by requiring them to act like Progressives.
    MCTX and Marty aren’t fascists. You aren’t even republicans.
    I’m not sure Comrade Commissar LJ agrees.

  789. As a general rule, the whole litmus test approach is counterproductive. It turns folks who would at least be tactical allies into knee-jerk opponents.
    I suppose there might be some psychic benefit to a sense of utter purity. But anyone who actually cares about results should stay clear. Save your objections for specific issues.

  790. As a general rule, the whole litmus test approach is counterproductive. It turns folks who would at least be tactical allies into knee-jerk opponents.
    I suppose there might be some psychic benefit to a sense of utter purity. But anyone who actually cares about results should stay clear. Save your objections for specific issues.

  791. Fine to raise hell on the merits of anything he does, but don’t impose a litmus test on anti-Trump conservatives by requiring them to act like Progressives.
    Are there, any anti-Trump conservatives in a position of power in this country? I don’t think there are.

  792. Fine to raise hell on the merits of anything he does, but don’t impose a litmus test on anti-Trump conservatives by requiring them to act like Progressives.
    Are there, any anti-Trump conservatives in a position of power in this country? I don’t think there are.

  795. Which is to say that, ISTM, if there were a truly “anti-Trump conservative” Congressmen s/he would be out loudly and unequivocally condemning Trump’s attack on the judge in the EO case as a threat to an independent judiciary and thus the rule of law and the Constitution. Instead, we get the mealy mouth sh1t from Paul Ryan (not that Paul Ryan is an anti-Trump conservative, quite the contrary in fact).

  796. Which is to say that, ISTM, if there were a truly “anti-Trump conservative” Congressmen s/he would be out loudly and unequivocally condemning Trump’s attack on the judge in the EO case as a threat to an independent judiciary and thus the rule of law and the Constitution. Instead, we get the mealy mouth sh1t from Paul Ryan (not that Paul Ryan is an anti-Trump conservative, quite the contrary in fact).

  799. GFTNC–the Southern Proverty Law Center’s statistical methodology is tied closely to its political agenda.
    Ugh, do you have a link for Trump’s criticism’s of the judge? I want to compare to Obama’s comments on Citizens United in the State of the Union Address.
    HSH–interesting perspective from a congressman. Does it seem to you as mealy-mouthed as the Obama Administration calling the 2009 Ft Hood shooting by Major Nassan work place violence? Here’s a link:http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/how-white-house-military-failed-fort-hood-victims

  800. GFTNC–the Southern Proverty Law Center’s statistical methodology is tied closely to its political agenda.
    Ugh, do you have a link for Trump’s criticism’s of the judge? I want to compare to Obama’s comments on Citizens United in the State of the Union Address.
    HSH–interesting perspective from a congressman. Does it seem to you as mealy-mouthed as the Obama Administration calling the 2009 Ft Hood shooting by Major Nassan work place violence? Here’s a link:http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/how-white-house-military-failed-fort-hood-victims

  801. McK, do you have a link to something technical about the SPLC’s statistical methodology? I know a little about the subject, and I’d be interested to see what they are using.
    Thanks

  802. McK, do you have a link to something technical about the SPLC’s statistical methodology? I know a little about the subject, and I’d be interested to see what they are using.
    Thanks

  803. GFTNC–the Southern Proverty Law Center’s statistical methodology is tied closely to its political agenda.
    Are we to take away from this that their numbers are not reliable?
    What about their “statistical methodology” do you find suspect?

  804. GFTNC–the Southern Proverty Law Center’s statistical methodology is tied closely to its political agenda.
    Are we to take away from this that their numbers are not reliable?
    What about their “statistical methodology” do you find suspect?

  807. Looks pretty evenhanded to me, and I believe the SPLC has a reputation as generally reliable, but I am no statistician. It looks as if russell and wj may be better interlocutors for you on this.

  808. Looks pretty evenhanded to me, and I believe the SPLC has a reputation as generally reliable, but I am no statistician. It looks as if russell and wj may be better interlocutors for you on this.

  809. Does it seem to you as mealy-mouthed as the Obama Administration calling the 2009 Ft Hood shooting by Major Nassan work place violence?
    Maybe. I haven’t given tons of thought to it. If I was in the habit of claiming that the Obama administration was perfect, I supposed I’d put more effort into defending that 8-year-old characterization of one particular incident.

  810. Does it seem to you as mealy-mouthed as the Obama Administration calling the 2009 Ft Hood shooting by Major Nassan work place violence?
    Maybe. I haven’t given tons of thought to it. If I was in the habit of claiming that the Obama administration was perfect, I supposed I’d put more effort into defending that 8-year-old characterization of one particular incident.

  811. Yes, I wish the Obama administration had instituted a ban on Muslims in our armed forces, I’m sure that would have solved all our problems. Maybe they could have forced recruits to pee on a Koran as a test.

  812. Yes, I wish the Obama administration had instituted a ban on Muslims in our armed forces, I’m sure that would have solved all our problems. Maybe they could have forced recruits to pee on a Koran as a test.

  813. McKTx, if you’re going to invoke Red$t@te’s so-called commentary part and parcel, don’t be coy and rhetorically ask for the citations you read there. Just link to their crap and be done with it.

  814. McKTx, if you’re going to invoke Red$t@te’s so-called commentary part and parcel, don’t be coy and rhetorically ask for the citations you read there. Just link to their crap and be done with it.

  819. I would never have the guts to address a sitting Judge as “Your so-called Honor”.
    This so-called President needs to be held in contempt if we respect the rule of law.
    “If something happens, blame the Judge and the Courts”
    Something IS going to happen. The Presidential order has already been signaled. Soviet agents in the U.S., run by their U.S. Embassy with impunity from Homeland Security oversight, and elements in the FBI’s New York Office who engineered the stealing of the 2016 Presidential election from the Democratic candidate and the American people are cooking a fine terrorist stew with multiple targets.
    Guiliani’s hazy role in Trump’s White House just became clearer, don’t you think?
    Do we know why Trump private security detail stands between him and Secret Service?
    Of course we do.

  820. I would never have the guts to address a sitting Judge as “Your so-called Honor”.
    This so-called President needs to be held in contempt if we respect the rule of law.
    “If something happens, blame the Judge and the Courts”
    Something IS going to happen. The Presidential order has already been signaled. Soviet agents in the U.S., run by their U.S. Embassy with impunity from Homeland Security oversight, and elements in the FBI’s New York Office who engineered the stealing of the 2016 Presidential election from the Democratic candidate and the American people are cooking a fine terrorist stew with multiple targets.
    Guiliani’s hazy role in Trump’s White House just became clearer, don’t you think?
    Do we know why Trump private security detail stands between him and Secret Service?
    Of course we do.

  821. What, did they try to establish Israeli settlements and steal land on the West Bank?
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/02/a-picture-worth-thousand-words.html
    Kapos is what Trump Capo conservatives Friedman and Dermer, the latter American-born, would call them.
    We’re going metal on metal, people. Just like the norms of civil society were swept away by McConnell’s and Ryan’s theft of my agency as a voter by denying Obama’s Supreme Court nominee the courtesy of a hearing before Congress, there’s only one endpoint after metal on metal.
    Only one thing.

  822. What, did they try to establish Israeli settlements and steal land on the West Bank?
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/02/a-picture-worth-thousand-words.html
    Kapos is what Trump Capo conservatives Friedman and Dermer, the latter American-born, would call them.
    We’re going metal on metal, people. Just like the norms of civil society were swept away by McConnell’s and Ryan’s theft of my agency as a voter by denying Obama’s Supreme Court nominee the courtesy of a hearing before Congress, there’s only one endpoint after metal on metal.
    Only one thing.

  823. …its political agenda.
    Well, OK. So then we can casually dismiss anything you care to cite from the Cato Institute, American Enterprise Institute, Heritage Foundation, Manhattan Institute, Hoover Institution, Freedom House, Hudson Institute, Pacific Research Institute….etc., etc.?
    Just want to get the ground rules straight here, tex.

  824. …its political agenda.
    Well, OK. So then we can casually dismiss anything you care to cite from the Cato Institute, American Enterprise Institute, Heritage Foundation, Manhattan Institute, Hoover Institution, Freedom House, Hudson Institute, Pacific Research Institute….etc., etc.?
    Just want to get the ground rules straight here, tex.

  825. McTx: Ugh, do you have a link for Trump’s criticism’s of the judge? I want to compare to Obama’s comments on Citizens United in the State of the Union Address.
    Well that would be silly because even if Obama had encouraged his supporters to storm SCOTUS, drag the justices on the winning side from their offices and eat their livers on the Supreme Court’s steps with a nice chianti and some fava beans, such that “anti-Obama liberals” could then criticize him, it would be wholly irrelevant to the task at hand, which is ISTM how might an “anti-Trump” “conservative” GOP leader be anti-Trump without having to “act like Progressives” as you put it. Or, perhaps, how to be anti-Trump without compromising your conservative bona-fides.
    So, my first suggestion is to criticize Trump for his tweets about Judge Robart. Other suggestions:
    1. Demand Trump release his tax returns. If he refuses, demand that Congress obtain them from the IRS and release them to the public (which it has the power to do and has in fact exercised it in the past).
    2. Demand Trump truly sever himself from his businesses, stop violating the emoluments clause, and remove the inherent conflict of interest. Support a Congressional investigation if he doesn’t.
    3. Vociferously support a Congressional investigation into the hacking that occurred during the election.
    4. Call Trump out on giving highly partisan speeches to the CIA and Pentagon.
    5. Support an investigation into the CBP’s actions during the past two weeks (okay maybe this is too far, but still, lots of horror stories that seem to have lots to do with CBP abusing its power and hating on foreigners and nothing to do with the EO or security in general).
    Non of this has fnck all to do with anything Obama did – it’s about “anti-Trump conservatives,” which I maintain are mythical for GOPers in positions of power.

  826. McTx: Ugh, do you have a link for Trump’s criticism’s of the judge? I want to compare to Obama’s comments on Citizens United in the State of the Union Address.
    Well that would be silly because even if Obama had encouraged his supporters to storm SCOTUS, drag the justices on the winning side from their offices and eat their livers on the Supreme Court’s steps with a nice chianti and some fava beans, such that “anti-Obama liberals” could then criticize him, it would be wholly irrelevant to the task at hand, which is ISTM how might an “anti-Trump” “conservative” GOP leader be anti-Trump without having to “act like Progressives” as you put it. Or, perhaps, how to be anti-Trump without compromising your conservative bona-fides.
    So, my first suggestion is to criticize Trump for his tweets about Judge Robart. Other suggestions:
    1. Demand Trump release his tax returns. If he refuses, demand that Congress obtain them from the IRS and release them to the public (which it has the power to do and has in fact exercised it in the past).
    2. Demand Trump truly sever himself from his businesses, stop violating the emoluments clause, and remove the inherent conflict of interest. Support a Congressional investigation if he doesn’t.
    3. Vociferously support a Congressional investigation into the hacking that occurred during the election.
    4. Call Trump out on giving highly partisan speeches to the CIA and Pentagon.
    5. Support an investigation into the CBP’s actions during the past two weeks (okay maybe this is too far, but still, lots of horror stories that seem to have lots to do with CBP abusing its power and hating on foreigners and nothing to do with the EO or security in general).
    Non of this has fnck all to do with anything Obama did – it’s about “anti-Trump conservatives,” which I maintain are mythical for GOPers in positions of power.

  827. Just for McKT, some entirely temperate remarks on the recent legal kerfuffle:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/08/donald-trump-dismisses-travel-ban-hearing-politics-us-waits/
    Trump at annual conference of police chiefs…
    “…I listened to the panel; it had nothing to do with it. I will not comment – particularly one judge.
    If they want to help the country, they do what they should be doing.
    If they read something so perfectly written, so clear to anybody, and then you have lawyers….
    I watched last night – I couldn’t believe.
    Things nothing to do with what I just read.
    I won’t call courts biased, so I won’t. But they seem to be so political.
    It would be so good for our justice system if they could just do what was right.
    Right now we are at risk as a result of what just happened.
    I listened to a bunch of stuff last night on television that was disgraceful.
    What we have, I just read to you. It can’t be clearer.
    And a highly respected judge in Boston just ruled differently.
    I will read that, but there are statements made by that judge that were perfect.
    I think it’s sad. I think it’s a sad day. I think it will be a sad day until we get what we are entitled to as citizens of this country.
    One of the reasons I was elected was security. And jobs. Lots of things. But one of the strongest was security.
    But they are taking away our weapons, one by one. You people know it.
    I know it – I can read the polls. I have read them for a long time, better than anybody.
    We need security in our country. We have to allow you to do your job. And give you the weapons you need -this is a weapon you need.
    Maybe because of politics….”

  828. Just for McKT, some entirely temperate remarks on the recent legal kerfuffle:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/08/donald-trump-dismisses-travel-ban-hearing-politics-us-waits/
    Trump at annual conference of police chiefs…
    “…I listened to the panel; it had nothing to do with it. I will not comment – particularly one judge.
    If they want to help the country, they do what they should be doing.
    If they read something so perfectly written, so clear to anybody, and then you have lawyers….
    I watched last night – I couldn’t believe.
    Things nothing to do with what I just read.
    I won’t call courts biased, so I won’t. But they seem to be so political.
    It would be so good for our justice system if they could just do what was right.
    Right now we are at risk as a result of what just happened.
    I listened to a bunch of stuff last night on television that was disgraceful.
    What we have, I just read to you. It can’t be clearer.
    And a highly respected judge in Boston just ruled differently.
    I will read that, but there are statements made by that judge that were perfect.
    I think it’s sad. I think it’s a sad day. I think it will be a sad day until we get what we are entitled to as citizens of this country.
    One of the reasons I was elected was security. And jobs. Lots of things. But one of the strongest was security.
    But they are taking away our weapons, one by one. You people know it.
    I know it – I can read the polls. I have read them for a long time, better than anybody.
    We need security in our country. We have to allow you to do your job. And give you the weapons you need -this is a weapon you need.
    Maybe because of politics….”

  829. Did millions vote illegally for Clinton or didn’t they? I always thought Republicans were very concerned about voter fraud, even before Trump made such claims.
    Or did this commission do more to allow the votes of people who should be allowed to vote than to prevent (supposed) illegal, fraudulent voting, making it far less necessary (for the purposes of Republicans)?

  830. Did millions vote illegally for Clinton or didn’t they? I always thought Republicans were very concerned about voter fraud, even before Trump made such claims.
    Or did this commission do more to allow the votes of people who should be allowed to vote than to prevent (supposed) illegal, fraudulent voting, making it far less necessary (for the purposes of Republicans)?

  835. I always thought Republicans were very concerned about voter fraud
    The (R) dilemma is that they are a minority party, and they hold the WH and majorities in both houses of Congress.
    They want to keep the latter, but they can’t do so without impeding the will of the majority of the population.
    They are perfectly happy to do that, it just takes a fairly heroic amount of dissembling.

  836. I always thought Republicans were very concerned about voter fraud
    The (R) dilemma is that they are a minority party, and they hold the WH and majorities in both houses of Congress.
    They want to keep the latter, but they can’t do so without impeding the will of the majority of the population.
    They are perfectly happy to do that, it just takes a fairly heroic amount of dissembling.

  841. Also – does anyone even buy this ridiculous line of argument anymore? Or that the modern GOP is “the party of Lincoln”? What is one to do with these sorts of statements?
    Do we have a word for technically true historical factual statements that are nevertheless irrelevant or even contrary to the way things are now? Some type of Bullsh1t maybe?

  842. Also – does anyone even buy this ridiculous line of argument anymore? Or that the modern GOP is “the party of Lincoln”? What is one to do with these sorts of statements?
    Do we have a word for technically true historical factual statements that are nevertheless irrelevant or even contrary to the way things are now? Some type of Bullsh1t maybe?

  843. There has to be a Baldwin as Trump, McCarthy as Spicer and Rosie O’Donnell as Bannon skit on SNL this weeken. Please please please Lorne?

  844. There has to be a Baldwin as Trump, McCarthy as Spicer and Rosie O’Donnell as Bannon skit on SNL this weeken. Please please please Lorne?

  851. Sean Spicer on Sessions:
    he has been a tireless advocate for civil rights throughout his career…
    Spicer has, whether deliberately or just from necessity, established a solid reputation for consistency. After hearing him speak, you may not be clear on what is True on a particular subject, but you have a definite entry for False. It’s approaching the point where having just him make a statement on the weather** whether the sun is above the horizon is enough to make one doubt one’s senses.
    ** OK, that actually happened….

  852. Sean Spicer on Sessions:
    he has been a tireless advocate for civil rights throughout his career…
    Spicer has, whether deliberately or just from necessity, established a solid reputation for consistency. After hearing him speak, you may not be clear on what is True on a particular subject, but you have a definite entry for False. It’s approaching the point where having just him make a statement on the weather** whether the sun is above the horizon is enough to make one doubt one’s senses.
    ** OK, that actually happened….

  853. Geez, Nigel, emptywheel is late to the game.
    I got there twenty gingriches (a unit of time denoting used in the countdown between now and the day savage, unending violence descends upon the republican party and all of the cucks and dupes who enabled them) ago.
    To repeat, John Wilkes Booth is the true Father of this garbage ruling us today.
    Nordstroms is just like ISIS.

  854. Geez, Nigel, emptywheel is late to the game.
    I got there twenty gingriches (a unit of time denoting used in the countdown between now and the day savage, unending violence descends upon the republican party and all of the cucks and dupes who enabled them) ago.
    To repeat, John Wilkes Booth is the true Father of this garbage ruling us today.
    Nordstroms is just like ISIS.

  857. From the Count’s link:
    Conway abruptly ended another meeting, where she dismissed the concerns of voters about DeVos, after a congressional staffer asked her about a “Saturday Night Live” sketch ridiculing White House press secretary Sean Spicer.
    The staffer asked Conway if she’d laughed at the sketch, the website reported, but a source said her face “turned to stone.”
    A senior White House official told Politico that Conway did not comment on the SNL sketch and insisted that her face did not turn to stone.
    Did not! Did too! My 5 and 8 year old sons have more interesting arguments, pretty much all the time.
    I’m willing to believe that Conway’s face did not, in fact, turn into stone. Although that would be an interesting superpower to have.
    Also, great that GOP Congressional staffers are asking questions about Spicer being mocked on SNL – nothing better to do?
    Can things get any more ridiculous? Don’t answer that! (well, Count can answer, but no one else!)

  858. From the Count’s link:
    Conway abruptly ended another meeting, where she dismissed the concerns of voters about DeVos, after a congressional staffer asked her about a “Saturday Night Live” sketch ridiculing White House press secretary Sean Spicer.
    The staffer asked Conway if she’d laughed at the sketch, the website reported, but a source said her face “turned to stone.”
    A senior White House official told Politico that Conway did not comment on the SNL sketch and insisted that her face did not turn to stone.
    Did not! Did too! My 5 and 8 year old sons have more interesting arguments, pretty much all the time.
    I’m willing to believe that Conway’s face did not, in fact, turn into stone. Although that would be an interesting superpower to have.
    Also, great that GOP Congressional staffers are asking questions about Spicer being mocked on SNL – nothing better to do?
    Can things get any more ridiculous? Don’t answer that! (well, Count can answer, but no one else!)

  861. Also – does anyone even buy this ridiculous line of argument anymore? Or that the modern GOP is “the party of Lincoln”?
    These are very common to hear on social media among young, low-information tribalists with a weak sense of history and a sports-team approach to politics. It also doesn’t help that it’s an infuriating line of “reasoning” that elicits frustrated or angry reactions; this plays directly into the conservative political humor style characterized by measuring how funny something is by how red it makes liberals’ faces.
    You can pull out Dixiecrats, regionalism, or what-have-you and the people who feel this is worth saying won’t care; they either form their political opinions emotionally, and/or they’re stirring the pot. russell’s advice is probably the best you’ll hear on the subject.

  862. Also – does anyone even buy this ridiculous line of argument anymore? Or that the modern GOP is “the party of Lincoln”?
    These are very common to hear on social media among young, low-information tribalists with a weak sense of history and a sports-team approach to politics. It also doesn’t help that it’s an infuriating line of “reasoning” that elicits frustrated or angry reactions; this plays directly into the conservative political humor style characterized by measuring how funny something is by how red it makes liberals’ faces.
    You can pull out Dixiecrats, regionalism, or what-have-you and the people who feel this is worth saying won’t care; they either form their political opinions emotionally, and/or they’re stirring the pot. russell’s advice is probably the best you’ll hear on the subject.

  863. “These are very common to hear on social media among young, low-information tribalists with a weak sense of history and a sports-team approach to politics. It also doesn’t help that it’s an infuriating line of “reasoning” that elicits frustrated or angry reactions; this plays directly into the conservative political humor style characterized by measuring how funny something is by how red it makes liberals’ faces.”
    And now they are part of the White House press corps, joining Breitbart et al:
    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2017/02/08/104-typical-headlines-alex-jones-infowars/215218
    via Eschaton

  864. “These are very common to hear on social media among young, low-information tribalists with a weak sense of history and a sports-team approach to politics. It also doesn’t help that it’s an infuriating line of “reasoning” that elicits frustrated or angry reactions; this plays directly into the conservative political humor style characterized by measuring how funny something is by how red it makes liberals’ faces.”
    And now they are part of the White House press corps, joining Breitbart et al:
    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2017/02/08/104-typical-headlines-alex-jones-infowars/215218
    via Eschaton

  865. “Obama Caught Running ISIS”
    Well that explains a lot, along with “NWO Opening Thousands of Portals to Ancient Demons”
    Which causes me to ask, is “Ancient Demons” redundant? Aren’t there any new demons, or post-modern demons, or just-off-the-boat demons, or demon millenials (potentially also redundant)?
    Or are the “Ancient Demons” the scary ones whereas modern demons were given participation trophies growing up and thus are a bunch of pallid softies?

  866. “Obama Caught Running ISIS”
    Well that explains a lot, along with “NWO Opening Thousands of Portals to Ancient Demons”
    Which causes me to ask, is “Ancient Demons” redundant? Aren’t there any new demons, or post-modern demons, or just-off-the-boat demons, or demon millenials (potentially also redundant)?
    Or are the “Ancient Demons” the scary ones whereas modern demons were given participation trophies growing up and thus are a bunch of pallid softies?

  869. If Andy Kaufmann was here, and who is qualified to deny that he is, I ask you, he could answer the ancient demon question.

  870. If Andy Kaufmann was here, and who is qualified to deny that he is, I ask you, he could answer the ancient demon question.

  871. Ugh, ancient demons just means they’re demons who are over retirement age, so instead of stealing our jobs they’ll be sucking the pallid government teats of Social Security and Medicare for the rest of their immortal lives.

  872. Ugh, ancient demons just means they’re demons who are over retirement age, so instead of stealing our jobs they’ll be sucking the pallid government teats of Social Security and Medicare for the rest of their immortal lives.

  873. The unbiased guide on demons is still De Deo Socratis by Apuleius. That was before Christians (led by St.Augustine) hijacked and distorted the topic.
    Martianus Capella added a few details in the second book of his De nuptiis Philologiae et Mercurii.

  874. The unbiased guide on demons is still De Deo Socratis by Apuleius. That was before Christians (led by St.Augustine) hijacked and distorted the topic.
    Martianus Capella added a few details in the second book of his De nuptiis Philologiae et Mercurii.

  875. NWO Opening Thousands of Portals to Ancient Demons

    They’re flooding in! It’s disgraceful.
    So why didn’t the EO include a ban on Ancient Demons??? Inquiring minds want to know.

  876. NWO Opening Thousands of Portals to Ancient Demons

    They’re flooding in! It’s disgraceful.
    So why didn’t the EO include a ban on Ancient Demons??? Inquiring minds want to know.

  885. Sure, you could go and consult ancient texts about “demons”, but isn’t a modern empirical approach better?
    So ask yourself, what are the major characteristics for something to be called a “demon”? Not “what they are” (because who knows, really?), but “what they do”:
    Immaterial, no physical body; Immortal (potentially), they can be killed but do not age and die naturally; Not fixed to one location in space, so that they can act in many places simultaneously. Most people would add “inherently evil/amoral”, but while common, that’s not a strictly necessary condition.
    Now, compare to a modern entity: A CORPORATION.
    No body. Potentially immortal. Able to act in many places at the same time. To which I would add: “not inherently amoral, but they lean that way”, and “only able to speak and act through the bodies of the thralls they control”.
    If they had legs, I’d add that they walk like a duck.
    And, BTW, both are created in quiet rooms with arcane incantations in a dead language, but it takes a major power ritual to kill them.
    “Corporations are people. My friends” said someone. Creepy.

  886. Sure, you could go and consult ancient texts about “demons”, but isn’t a modern empirical approach better?
    So ask yourself, what are the major characteristics for something to be called a “demon”? Not “what they are” (because who knows, really?), but “what they do”:
    Immaterial, no physical body; Immortal (potentially), they can be killed but do not age and die naturally; Not fixed to one location in space, so that they can act in many places simultaneously. Most people would add “inherently evil/amoral”, but while common, that’s not a strictly necessary condition.
    Now, compare to a modern entity: A CORPORATION.
    No body. Potentially immortal. Able to act in many places at the same time. To which I would add: “not inherently amoral, but they lean that way”, and “only able to speak and act through the bodies of the thralls they control”.
    If they had legs, I’d add that they walk like a duck.
    And, BTW, both are created in quiet rooms with arcane incantations in a dead language, but it takes a major power ritual to kill them.
    “Corporations are people. My friends” said someone. Creepy.

  887. the ancient demons were a species of genius, an animating spirit and intelligence.
    we could use more of them, frankly.
    Does Yiannopoulos have a green card?
    Have Jeffrey Beauregard Sessions and Jubilation T Cornpone ever been seen in the same room?
    It’s a dilemma. It’s all so insane that it makes me laugh my freaking ass off, every day. the hiys just keep on coming. But this country is breaking my fucking heart. I feel like I’m being trolled by my high school sweetheart.
    I wish I could say I don’t understand WTF people are thinking. The problem is I understand exactly what they’re thinking.
    I wish everyone well, but I’m at a loss to know how to, or even really want to, think of these folks as fellow countrymen and women.
    I’d have thought we were better than this by now.

  888. the ancient demons were a species of genius, an animating spirit and intelligence.
    we could use more of them, frankly.
    Does Yiannopoulos have a green card?
    Have Jeffrey Beauregard Sessions and Jubilation T Cornpone ever been seen in the same room?
    It’s a dilemma. It’s all so insane that it makes me laugh my freaking ass off, every day. the hiys just keep on coming. But this country is breaking my fucking heart. I feel like I’m being trolled by my high school sweetheart.
    I wish I could say I don’t understand WTF people are thinking. The problem is I understand exactly what they’re thinking.
    I wish everyone well, but I’m at a loss to know how to, or even really want to, think of these folks as fellow countrymen and women.
    I’d have thought we were better than this by now.

  889. “I wish everyone well, but I’m at a loss to know how to, or even really want to, think of these folks as fellow countrymen and women.”
    They aren’t.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/sebastian-gorka-washington-experts-dc-anti-islam-ties
    Once we get through the following …. a cataclysmic black ops terrorist attack on American soil to be pinned on American citizen Muslims, now being planned by the Republican White House, Russian, ex-KGB-still-KGB security forces, the Republican FBI, now the Republican Justice Department under racist Republican filth Sessions, the Republican CIA, and the Republican Homeland Security, multiple declarations of war, including one across our Southern border as Mexico begins lining up Chinese ICBMs along the Wall, the stealing of the 2018 midterms by Republican actors in all 50 states, the multiple occurrences of unarmed American demonstrators, including Native Americans, liberal Jews, Muslims, gays, women, and the children of all of the above, gunned down in American streets by Republican paramilitary militias deputized by federal, state, and local Republican fascist governments, the wiretapping, harassment, and brutalizing of legitimate interest groups associated with all of the above, including centrist conservative orgs who, for now, are still bleating that they are mere Republicans not trump republicans, the capture and execution of the liberal, so-called terrorists in Texas who filched Tom Brady’s SuperBowl Jersey and the game-winning football, the dispatch of Elizabeth Warren orange-suited and in shackles to Guantanamo for trump to personally waterboard and fingerf*ck and the canceling, under declaration of Martial Law, of the 2020 Presidential elections … when we get through all of that … then the remnant, of the real, chthonic America will rise up ferociously and ask for the papers (know this ahead of time: you aren’t going to have the required papers) at automatic gunpoint of every motherf*cking conservative, Republican, right-wing, fascist, because who will be able to tell the difference between them in the fury of stereotyping, vengeance-is-my-First-Amendment-guaranteed-religious-right in America.
    None of you will have the luxury of being intentionally walked under the new rules.
    Don’t bother packing. We’re just calling the place you are going a “spa”. Wink. It’s not really a spa. It’s not a “gulch”. It’s not a “Benedict Option”. Don’t tell the kids.
    Alex Jones doesn’t know how to play this game, the corpse.

  890. “I wish everyone well, but I’m at a loss to know how to, or even really want to, think of these folks as fellow countrymen and women.”
    They aren’t.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/sebastian-gorka-washington-experts-dc-anti-islam-ties
    Once we get through the following …. a cataclysmic black ops terrorist attack on American soil to be pinned on American citizen Muslims, now being planned by the Republican White House, Russian, ex-KGB-still-KGB security forces, the Republican FBI, now the Republican Justice Department under racist Republican filth Sessions, the Republican CIA, and the Republican Homeland Security, multiple declarations of war, including one across our Southern border as Mexico begins lining up Chinese ICBMs along the Wall, the stealing of the 2018 midterms by Republican actors in all 50 states, the multiple occurrences of unarmed American demonstrators, including Native Americans, liberal Jews, Muslims, gays, women, and the children of all of the above, gunned down in American streets by Republican paramilitary militias deputized by federal, state, and local Republican fascist governments, the wiretapping, harassment, and brutalizing of legitimate interest groups associated with all of the above, including centrist conservative orgs who, for now, are still bleating that they are mere Republicans not trump republicans, the capture and execution of the liberal, so-called terrorists in Texas who filched Tom Brady’s SuperBowl Jersey and the game-winning football, the dispatch of Elizabeth Warren orange-suited and in shackles to Guantanamo for trump to personally waterboard and fingerf*ck and the canceling, under declaration of Martial Law, of the 2020 Presidential elections … when we get through all of that … then the remnant, of the real, chthonic America will rise up ferociously and ask for the papers (know this ahead of time: you aren’t going to have the required papers) at automatic gunpoint of every motherf*cking conservative, Republican, right-wing, fascist, because who will be able to tell the difference between them in the fury of stereotyping, vengeance-is-my-First-Amendment-guaranteed-religious-right in America.
    None of you will have the luxury of being intentionally walked under the new rules.
    Don’t bother packing. We’re just calling the place you are going a “spa”. Wink. It’s not really a spa. It’s not a “gulch”. It’s not a “Benedict Option”. Don’t tell the kids.
    Alex Jones doesn’t know how to play this game, the corpse.

  891. McTX, precociously, wrote recently here that he discounts Countme’s ravings by some 10x.
    That’s interesting because about a dozen years ago when I really started ramping it up here, Countme’s behind the scenes inner prime mover would sit back and just before hitting the “Post” button, and while missing you’re misspelled as “your”, say to himself, “Now, that is some crazy sh*t, Countme”, and discount it by @ 100 times.
    So, what Countme takes from this is that he gets closer to par in the prediction business the farther he gets from pristine sanity. 10X is not too far away.
    The crazier Countme gets, the more he catches up with the reality of the unAmerican RIGHT.
    Give it a couple more years.
    What gets Countme’s keeper (outfitted with a chair and pistol shooting blanks to keep his charge in hand and still accepting treats without eating him alive) is how other sane people like Nigel, for example, is made to feel “uncomfortable”, as in, well, that’s some bad sh*t, but it does made his scalp stand up on end with the uncomfortable shock of recognition.
    Sebastian gets it, too. Countme isn’t saying Sebastian endorses, because Countme wouldn’t accept endorsements anyway, but Sebastian gets it in his own civilized, sober way.
    Russell, of course, and some others here, say the same thing Countme does, but with pants on.

  892. McTX, precociously, wrote recently here that he discounts Countme’s ravings by some 10x.
    That’s interesting because about a dozen years ago when I really started ramping it up here, Countme’s behind the scenes inner prime mover would sit back and just before hitting the “Post” button, and while missing you’re misspelled as “your”, say to himself, “Now, that is some crazy sh*t, Countme”, and discount it by @ 100 times.
    So, what Countme takes from this is that he gets closer to par in the prediction business the farther he gets from pristine sanity. 10X is not too far away.
    The crazier Countme gets, the more he catches up with the reality of the unAmerican RIGHT.
    Give it a couple more years.
    What gets Countme’s keeper (outfitted with a chair and pistol shooting blanks to keep his charge in hand and still accepting treats without eating him alive) is how other sane people like Nigel, for example, is made to feel “uncomfortable”, as in, well, that’s some bad sh*t, but it does made his scalp stand up on end with the uncomfortable shock of recognition.
    Sebastian gets it, too. Countme isn’t saying Sebastian endorses, because Countme wouldn’t accept endorsements anyway, but Sebastian gets it in his own civilized, sober way.
    Russell, of course, and some others here, say the same thing Countme does, but with pants on.

  897. From The Atlantic Article Count linked to:
    Senior civilians and senior military officers today engage in their tug of war over military minutiae—when, how, and whether to conduct a raid—because doing so enables them to sustain the pretense that the United States is engaged in a strategically purposeful enterprise: that America is killing people pursuant to some plausible political outcome. The truth of the matter is that America is killing people—terrorists and others—because its leaders don’t know what else to do.
    Killing people and bombing things has become a substitute for policy and indeed for thinking. Where there should be strategy, there is a void. Will a president who looks to the likes of Steve Bannon and Michael Flynn for advice fill that void? I don’t think so.
    The operative question is not: Why did last week’s raid in Yemen fail? Instead, it is: What are U.S. forces doing there in the first place? How, at this stage of the game, is further expansion of the conflict once known as the Global War on Terrorism advancing the basic security interests of the United States? All that Mr. Trump is doing is to embrace the legacy of his predecessors: perpetuating what has become an open-ended war of attrition.
    Clearly this means we need to attack Iran.

  898. From The Atlantic Article Count linked to:
    Senior civilians and senior military officers today engage in their tug of war over military minutiae—when, how, and whether to conduct a raid—because doing so enables them to sustain the pretense that the United States is engaged in a strategically purposeful enterprise: that America is killing people pursuant to some plausible political outcome. The truth of the matter is that America is killing people—terrorists and others—because its leaders don’t know what else to do.
    Killing people and bombing things has become a substitute for policy and indeed for thinking. Where there should be strategy, there is a void. Will a president who looks to the likes of Steve Bannon and Michael Flynn for advice fill that void? I don’t think so.
    The operative question is not: Why did last week’s raid in Yemen fail? Instead, it is: What are U.S. forces doing there in the first place? How, at this stage of the game, is further expansion of the conflict once known as the Global War on Terrorism advancing the basic security interests of the United States? All that Mr. Trump is doing is to embrace the legacy of his predecessors: perpetuating what has become an open-ended war of attrition.
    Clearly this means we need to attack Iran.

  903. Ordinary people, undeterred by a useless, gutless, cowering, beside-the-point media, and a harassed, discredited, maligned judiciary is all it takes:
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/02/you-dont-have-to-spell-it-out-by.html
    Gorsuch is going to have plenty more disheartening, discouraging moments ahead of him.
    He can tell trump himself in the final days inside the penthouse bunker as Clarence Thomas sits mute in the corner fondling an automatic pistol given him by trump’s private security forces.

  904. Ordinary people, undeterred by a useless, gutless, cowering, beside-the-point media, and a harassed, discredited, maligned judiciary is all it takes:
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/02/you-dont-have-to-spell-it-out-by.html
    Gorsuch is going to have plenty more disheartening, discouraging moments ahead of him.
    He can tell trump himself in the final days inside the penthouse bunker as Clarence Thomas sits mute in the corner fondling an automatic pistol given him by trump’s private security forces.

  907. A proposed, game-shortening alternative to getting rid of the four-pitch soft toss intentional walk in baseball and politics.
    The batter may step out of the box and catch the first soft toss with his bare hands, replace it with a live grenade, and throw it back, pin pulled, to the pitcher.
    http://mediamatters.org/video/2017/02/08/breitbarts-curt-schilling-says-sen-warren-made-complete-idiot-out-herself-speaking-out-about-jeff/215274
    C’mon, meat, throw it up here. Please.

  908. A proposed, game-shortening alternative to getting rid of the four-pitch soft toss intentional walk in baseball and politics.
    The batter may step out of the box and catch the first soft toss with his bare hands, replace it with a live grenade, and throw it back, pin pulled, to the pitcher.
    http://mediamatters.org/video/2017/02/08/breitbarts-curt-schilling-says-sen-warren-made-complete-idiot-out-herself-speaking-out-about-jeff/215274
    C’mon, meat, throw it up here. Please.

  911. Yes, that’s why all of us are mere beggars now. Very bad cop/killer cop, and it’s hard to tell which is which, is all we have to respond to.
    Gorsuch needs to decline the nomination, if he’s a serious American:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gorsuch-condemned-attacks-brothers-sisters-robe
    But I have a feeling he’s going to be permanently ensconced where he shouldn’t be while wearing Ivanka’s designer robes with matching garters, teddy, flick knife, and holstered derringer underneath.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/conway-plugging-ivanka-line-fox
    trump will dispense with the politically correct face-saving of disappearing this guy after the fact and order the tanks to just run him over right then and there, because chest-thumping strong leader say so.
    And the INS disgraces, who broke the f*cking law last week, exemplify that ordinary people tank commanders will follow orders with extreme prejudice.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFzeNAHEhU

  912. Yes, that’s why all of us are mere beggars now. Very bad cop/killer cop, and it’s hard to tell which is which, is all we have to respond to.
    Gorsuch needs to decline the nomination, if he’s a serious American:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gorsuch-condemned-attacks-brothers-sisters-robe
    But I have a feeling he’s going to be permanently ensconced where he shouldn’t be while wearing Ivanka’s designer robes with matching garters, teddy, flick knife, and holstered derringer underneath.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/conway-plugging-ivanka-line-fox
    trump will dispense with the politically correct face-saving of disappearing this guy after the fact and order the tanks to just run him over right then and there, because chest-thumping strong leader say so.
    And the INS disgraces, who broke the f*cking law last week, exemplify that ordinary people tank commanders will follow orders with extreme prejudice.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFzeNAHEhU

  913. Georgia on my mind:
    “But one of the things I’ve talked to the secretary of agriculture about: Why don’t you have the kids pay a dime, pay a nickel to instill in them that there is, in fact, no such thing as a free lunch? Or maybe sweep the floor of the cafeteria — and yes, I understand that that would be an administrative problem, and I understand that it would probably lose you money. But think what we would gain as a society in getting people — getting the myth out of their head that there is such a thing as a free lunch,” he said.

  914. Georgia on my mind:
    “But one of the things I’ve talked to the secretary of agriculture about: Why don’t you have the kids pay a dime, pay a nickel to instill in them that there is, in fact, no such thing as a free lunch? Or maybe sweep the floor of the cafeteria — and yes, I understand that that would be an administrative problem, and I understand that it would probably lose you money. But think what we would gain as a society in getting people — getting the myth out of their head that there is such a thing as a free lunch,” he said.

  915. The U.S. stock market is melting up:
    http://voxeu.org/article/paying-piper-reaping-returns-hitler-s-rise-and-stock-prices
    https://www.quora.com/How-did-Germanys-stock-market-perform-during-the-rise-of-the-Third-Reich-Did-it-give-out-warning-signs-of-what-was-to-come
    Buy arms merchants, crematoria, gas compressor and dispenser, railroad, Intel, Under Armour, and private prison stocks on margin; short anything marketing and selling human decency.
    Unless you make a fetish out of hypocrisy, do what I do, ride it up via index bets, and take part of the proceeds and visit the gun and ammo stores and gun ranges and see what they are selling.
    Use the rest to pay republican doctors double to remove bullets and sew up the wounds.

  916. The U.S. stock market is melting up:
    http://voxeu.org/article/paying-piper-reaping-returns-hitler-s-rise-and-stock-prices
    https://www.quora.com/How-did-Germanys-stock-market-perform-during-the-rise-of-the-Third-Reich-Did-it-give-out-warning-signs-of-what-was-to-come
    Buy arms merchants, crematoria, gas compressor and dispenser, railroad, Intel, Under Armour, and private prison stocks on margin; short anything marketing and selling human decency.
    Unless you make a fetish out of hypocrisy, do what I do, ride it up via index bets, and take part of the proceeds and visit the gun and ammo stores and gun ranges and see what they are selling.
    Use the rest to pay republican doctors double to remove bullets and sew up the wounds.

  917. Every lunch trump has shoveled down his gullet in his reality show life has been free.
    The kids should be permitted to open carry guns in school and we’ll see how far the overpaid, hair-netted cafeteria, funny-walking bouncer gets with the request for a dime.
    They could sell popcorn.
    “Now kids, today, we’ll skip our regularly scheduled history class and present the Devos-Bannon production of “Springtime For Hitler”.
    There vill be no absences permitted, meine Kinder Liebchen. Our charter demands it.
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/02/09/steve-bannon-wanted-mel-gibson-for-his-movie-about-nazis-abortion-mutants.html?via=newsletter&source=DDAfternoon

  918. Every lunch trump has shoveled down his gullet in his reality show life has been free.
    The kids should be permitted to open carry guns in school and we’ll see how far the overpaid, hair-netted cafeteria, funny-walking bouncer gets with the request for a dime.
    They could sell popcorn.
    “Now kids, today, we’ll skip our regularly scheduled history class and present the Devos-Bannon production of “Springtime For Hitler”.
    There vill be no absences permitted, meine Kinder Liebchen. Our charter demands it.
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/02/09/steve-bannon-wanted-mel-gibson-for-his-movie-about-nazis-abortion-mutants.html?via=newsletter&source=DDAfternoon

  919. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jeff-sessions-claims-rise-in-crime-rates-dangerous-permanent-trend
    As any nine-year old knows, we’re thirty years into the biggest drop in crime levels across-the-board in modern history.
    What Sessions is referring to is the exponential rise in political crimes that will be committed once he and Congressional Republicans pass draconian political crime laws.
    I’ve committed near a dozen right here just this morning and another four over at Juanita Jean’s just in the last hour.
    Serial blogging from the Left – 16 counts.
    Hurting Trump’s feeling – 16 counts.
    Exposing Paul Ryan for the killer he is – 16 counts.

  920. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jeff-sessions-claims-rise-in-crime-rates-dangerous-permanent-trend
    As any nine-year old knows, we’re thirty years into the biggest drop in crime levels across-the-board in modern history.
    What Sessions is referring to is the exponential rise in political crimes that will be committed once he and Congressional Republicans pass draconian political crime laws.
    I’ve committed near a dozen right here just this morning and another four over at Juanita Jean’s just in the last hour.
    Serial blogging from the Left – 16 counts.
    Hurting Trump’s feeling – 16 counts.
    Exposing Paul Ryan for the killer he is – 16 counts.

  921. That’s awfully symmetrical of you Count! But don’t forget:
    Refusal to purchase Ivanka-branded merch: 16 counts.

  922. That’s awfully symmetrical of you Count! But don’t forget:
    Refusal to purchase Ivanka-branded merch: 16 counts.

  929. There are a lot of California farm owners who have gotten so locked in to the anti-Democrat mindset that they cannot imagine that a Democrat might want to do something that they approve of. Or that a Republican might do something that they dislike. It’s tribalism at its most hardened.
    And now they are discovering that they should have actually paid attention to what politicians were saying, not just to what label they wore. (Wonder if they will extend their horror at what Trump’s efforts are doing to their businesses to other Republicans….)

  930. There are a lot of California farm owners who have gotten so locked in to the anti-Democrat mindset that they cannot imagine that a Democrat might want to do something that they approve of. Or that a Republican might do something that they dislike. It’s tribalism at its most hardened.
    And now they are discovering that they should have actually paid attention to what politicians were saying, not just to what label they wore. (Wonder if they will extend their horror at what Trump’s efforts are doing to their businesses to other Republicans….)

  935. The truth of the matter is that America is killing people—terrorists and others—because its leaders don’t know what else to do.
    The minute I read that, I pulled up my pants and thought to myself, “Bacevich”.
    Sure enough.

  936. The truth of the matter is that America is killing people—terrorists and others—because its leaders don’t know what else to do.
    The minute I read that, I pulled up my pants and thought to myself, “Bacevich”.
    Sure enough.

  939. Funnily enough on that Gorka link, I had occasion to look him up yesterday (had never heard of him before) and found that in all his bios, in the list of educational establishments where he got his degrees, he lists “the University of London”. This seems very odd to me, because although the U of L exists as an umbrella entity, the individual colleges operate pretty much as independent universities, and graduates never say “I graduated from the University of London”, they say “I graduated from UCL (University College London), or LSE (the London School of Economics), or Imperial College (our version of MIT), or Kings College”. Those are the best colleges, but there are quite a few others, including teaching hospitals etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_London
    I just thought this interesting, as if he was at a not particularly prestigious institution and is trying to conceal it. Of course, he may just be simplifying it for furriners, who don’t get the distinctions, but I must emphasise there is nobody in the academic world, anywhere here or abroad, who would have put it this way or would have expected it to be put this way. It was odd enough that it really stood out.

  940. Funnily enough on that Gorka link, I had occasion to look him up yesterday (had never heard of him before) and found that in all his bios, in the list of educational establishments where he got his degrees, he lists “the University of London”. This seems very odd to me, because although the U of L exists as an umbrella entity, the individual colleges operate pretty much as independent universities, and graduates never say “I graduated from the University of London”, they say “I graduated from UCL (University College London), or LSE (the London School of Economics), or Imperial College (our version of MIT), or Kings College”. Those are the best colleges, but there are quite a few others, including teaching hospitals etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_London
    I just thought this interesting, as if he was at a not particularly prestigious institution and is trying to conceal it. Of course, he may just be simplifying it for furriners, who don’t get the distinctions, but I must emphasise there is nobody in the academic world, anywhere here or abroad, who would have put it this way or would have expected it to be put this way. It was odd enough that it really stood out.

  947. I’ve been watching the McCain/Graham Abbott and Costello act for years.
    They switch off like a tag team. Tiresome.
    Whatever happened to Sarah Death Panel, McCain’s kick-off for the present-day bullshit, Ann Coulter, and Ted Nugent? Notice how the Oath Keepers have ducked out of sight?*
    Throw the bombs and the melt into the crowd.
    It’s just like those terrible forest fires out West in 1988 when Newt Gingrich ordered Republican arsonists to set fire after fire throughout the West, starting with Yellowstone, and arranged with the Wall Street Journal editorial page to blame it on government so the national forests and Park System could be put up for sale to the lowest (hard to get any lower except for the snakes) republican bidder.
    *A couple of months ago, I took a desultory drive south of Denver toward Colorado Springs and a guy in an SUV got in front of me. Bumper stickers all over the back end of the thing claiming his membership and fealty to the Oath Keepers and hatred of swarthy Kenyan.
    He wasn’t wearing camo that I could tell, because I could see him at the wheel; you know how those right-wingers think they disappear when they wear John Wayne’s Green Beret costume?
    Just for yucks, I decided to tail him and see where he was going, After about 15 miles he hung a left into a parking lot behind a small warehouse-type structure. Wonder what was in there? The door he entered was unmarked. Anyway, I followed him into the lot in my armored Toyota Tercel and cooled my heels at the other end of the parking lot and mused about how to instantly make America great again.

  948. I’ve been watching the McCain/Graham Abbott and Costello act for years.
    They switch off like a tag team. Tiresome.
    Whatever happened to Sarah Death Panel, McCain’s kick-off for the present-day bullshit, Ann Coulter, and Ted Nugent? Notice how the Oath Keepers have ducked out of sight?*
    Throw the bombs and the melt into the crowd.
    It’s just like those terrible forest fires out West in 1988 when Newt Gingrich ordered Republican arsonists to set fire after fire throughout the West, starting with Yellowstone, and arranged with the Wall Street Journal editorial page to blame it on government so the national forests and Park System could be put up for sale to the lowest (hard to get any lower except for the snakes) republican bidder.
    *A couple of months ago, I took a desultory drive south of Denver toward Colorado Springs and a guy in an SUV got in front of me. Bumper stickers all over the back end of the thing claiming his membership and fealty to the Oath Keepers and hatred of swarthy Kenyan.
    He wasn’t wearing camo that I could tell, because I could see him at the wheel; you know how those right-wingers think they disappear when they wear John Wayne’s Green Beret costume?
    Just for yucks, I decided to tail him and see where he was going, After about 15 miles he hung a left into a parking lot behind a small warehouse-type structure. Wonder what was in there? The door he entered was unmarked. Anyway, I followed him into the lot in my armored Toyota Tercel and cooled my heels at the other end of the parking lot and mused about how to instantly make America great again.

  953. All sickening, but the bit about what trump told Howard Stern regarding how his sex life back in the day was just as horrifying and dangerous as Vietnam would be funny if, say, it was a line of Kramer’s on Seinfeld.
    As it is, though, it’s funny like the Tet Offensive was an amusing comedy bit.
    http://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/02/09/quick-takes-better-than-baghdadi/
    Like maybe he had his junk blown off by a landmine planted in one his serial victims’ vaginas and had to be Airvaced only to wait for an appointment at the VA while gangrene set in.
    He didn’t date, he deployed. Every night was a firefight. He confused cooch with hooch. It wasn’t My Lai, it was His Lay.
    And he couldn’t even make her apocalypse with his inadequate equipment. Had to call in airstrikes and backup.
    Something was purple but it wasn’t his heart.
    He gave THEM gonorrhea and got a medal for it.

  954. All sickening, but the bit about what trump told Howard Stern regarding how his sex life back in the day was just as horrifying and dangerous as Vietnam would be funny if, say, it was a line of Kramer’s on Seinfeld.
    As it is, though, it’s funny like the Tet Offensive was an amusing comedy bit.
    http://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/02/09/quick-takes-better-than-baghdadi/
    Like maybe he had his junk blown off by a landmine planted in one his serial victims’ vaginas and had to be Airvaced only to wait for an appointment at the VA while gangrene set in.
    He didn’t date, he deployed. Every night was a firefight. He confused cooch with hooch. It wasn’t My Lai, it was His Lay.
    And he couldn’t even make her apocalypse with his inadequate equipment. Had to call in airstrikes and backup.
    Something was purple but it wasn’t his heart.
    He gave THEM gonorrhea and got a medal for it.

  965. GftNC: I attended SOAS (the School of Oriental and African Studies) in the mid-1960s, but the exam I took for my BA (Hons) was a University of London examination, and my degree was from the University of London. (And I was offered the prize for the top history graduate not just in SOAS, but in the whole University.)
    When I’m talking to people who know the field of Asian Studies pretty well, I say I went to SOAS, but to most others I just say I have a degree from the University of London, because it’s easier than explaining what SOAS is (= the best college of Asian Studies in the world, possibly, but administratively part of UL).
    Now most of my post-graduate experience has been outside of the UK (USA, Australia, Hong Kong, Philippines), and maybe it would be different if I’d stayed in academic circles in Britain, but I don’t find anything particularly significant about Gorka or anyone else saying s/he studied at the University of London.
    Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

  966. GftNC: I attended SOAS (the School of Oriental and African Studies) in the mid-1960s, but the exam I took for my BA (Hons) was a University of London examination, and my degree was from the University of London. (And I was offered the prize for the top history graduate not just in SOAS, but in the whole University.)
    When I’m talking to people who know the field of Asian Studies pretty well, I say I went to SOAS, but to most others I just say I have a degree from the University of London, because it’s easier than explaining what SOAS is (= the best college of Asian Studies in the world, possibly, but administratively part of UL).
    Now most of my post-graduate experience has been outside of the UK (USA, Australia, Hong Kong, Philippines), and maybe it would be different if I’d stayed in academic circles in Britain, but I don’t find anything particularly significant about Gorka or anyone else saying s/he studied at the University of London.
    Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

  967. dr ngo, thank you for this. Of course I know that the degrees are nominally (and factually) from the University of London, it’s just that nobody I know (and tons of my friends are and have been academics, foreign and English, all my life) says they are going to, attended or graduated from the U of L. Maybe because they are talking to an English person, or maybe usage has changed over the years? Contrarily, although undergraduates at Oxford and Cambridge attend individual colleges, they always say they went to Oxford or Cambridge.
    In any case, I would certainly have included SOAS in my list of the best colleges, but I recently had a conversation with a young friend of impeccable credentials like yourself (best history graduate of his year in Oxford, not just his college, and steeped in academic life) who told me that SOAS’s reputation is not what it was. I was sorry to hear this, as I had always majorly respected the institution, and privately wondered if his rightwing leanings were influencing his opinion, but had no way of verifying. In any case, your post means I cannot reasonably suspect the foul Gorka of “massaging” his academic record, more’s the pity!

  968. dr ngo, thank you for this. Of course I know that the degrees are nominally (and factually) from the University of London, it’s just that nobody I know (and tons of my friends are and have been academics, foreign and English, all my life) says they are going to, attended or graduated from the U of L. Maybe because they are talking to an English person, or maybe usage has changed over the years? Contrarily, although undergraduates at Oxford and Cambridge attend individual colleges, they always say they went to Oxford or Cambridge.
    In any case, I would certainly have included SOAS in my list of the best colleges, but I recently had a conversation with a young friend of impeccable credentials like yourself (best history graduate of his year in Oxford, not just his college, and steeped in academic life) who told me that SOAS’s reputation is not what it was. I was sorry to hear this, as I had always majorly respected the institution, and privately wondered if his rightwing leanings were influencing his opinion, but had no way of verifying. In any case, your post means I cannot reasonably suspect the foul Gorka of “massaging” his academic record, more’s the pity!

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