by liberal japonicus
A little early, but what the heck, the doctor is going into double time. A paper microscope, you say?
Manu Prakash, a professor at Stanford University and his students have developed a microscope out of a flat sheet of paper, a watch battery, LED, and optical units that when folded together, much like origami, creates a functional instrument with the resolution of 800 nanometers – basically magnifying an object up to 2,000 times.
Called Foldscope, the microscope is extremely inexpensive to manufacture, costing between fifty-cents and a dollar per instrument. And because the microscope is assembled primarily from paper and optical components the size of a grain of sand, it is virtually indestructible.
Foldscope also differs from the microscopes typically found in science labs because it’s not only portable, but it also has the ability to project an image on any surface, allowing a larger group of people the ability to look at an image simultaneously.
The Yahoo video wasn't available here, but below the fold is another video of Manu Prakash, a professor at Stanford University who, along with his students developed this slick puppy. TCFW
We seem to have take the torture thread comments down the open thread path. I suppose it will take a while for us all to relocate….
We seem to have take the torture thread comments down the open thread path. I suppose it will take a while for us all to relocate….
splendid.
the microscope, that is, not the torture thread threadjack.
thanks for sharing this, LJ.
splendid.
the microscope, that is, not the torture thread threadjack.
thanks for sharing this, LJ.
Making diagnostics and treatments cheap and robust is a major focus in the biomed community right now.
I went to a talk by another researcher from Stanford, they are really doing a lot of very good stuff there. At the time, the microscope was just a footnote, but you could tell the guy was excited about it.
One of the really cool examples they gave in the talk was they identified a problem in india: Leg braces were expensive, so expensive that ambulances were taking the braces back when they dropped an injured person off at the hospital.
That was a problem because broken bones were unstable while they were transferred from the curb to their bed.
Having identified the problem, they developed a cheap, disposable paper leg splint. Ambulance companies don’t mind using and losing them (they cost like 75 cents or something, I don’t remember exactly). And the patients have better recovery because the leg is stabilized the entire time.
As a sidenote, much of this program is structured around spinning off startups and turning a profit in the field of low-cost medicine. Self-sustaining and not charity.
There are some more examples here:
http://biodesign.stanford.edu/bdn/india/news.jsp
Anyway, I think it’s a really exciting time to be in biomed research. Medicine is going to change dramatically over the next few decades.
Making diagnostics and treatments cheap and robust is a major focus in the biomed community right now.
I went to a talk by another researcher from Stanford, they are really doing a lot of very good stuff there. At the time, the microscope was just a footnote, but you could tell the guy was excited about it.
One of the really cool examples they gave in the talk was they identified a problem in india: Leg braces were expensive, so expensive that ambulances were taking the braces back when they dropped an injured person off at the hospital.
That was a problem because broken bones were unstable while they were transferred from the curb to their bed.
Having identified the problem, they developed a cheap, disposable paper leg splint. Ambulance companies don’t mind using and losing them (they cost like 75 cents or something, I don’t remember exactly). And the patients have better recovery because the leg is stabilized the entire time.
As a sidenote, much of this program is structured around spinning off startups and turning a profit in the field of low-cost medicine. Self-sustaining and not charity.
There are some more examples here:
http://biodesign.stanford.edu/bdn/india/news.jsp
Anyway, I think it’s a really exciting time to be in biomed research. Medicine is going to change dramatically over the next few decades.
Biomed, and biotech generally, feel like they are today about where personal computers were in the mid-80s. You can see that it is going to grow explosively. And anyone who says he knows how and in what directions it is going to grow is crazy. (If he can do that, he’s already made billions forecasting, and retired long since to a tropical island somewhere.)
Biomed, and biotech generally, feel like they are today about where personal computers were in the mid-80s. You can see that it is going to grow explosively. And anyone who says he knows how and in what directions it is going to grow is crazy. (If he can do that, he’s already made billions forecasting, and retired long since to a tropical island somewhere.)
And anyone who says he knows how and in what directions it is going to grow is crazy.
Well, not specifically. But I think medicine and medical devices will get cheaper, more personalized, and more ubiquitous.
Just like it did with computers.
3D printed skull implant:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-03/26/3d-printed-skull
And anyone who says he knows how and in what directions it is going to grow is crazy.
Well, not specifically. But I think medicine and medical devices will get cheaper, more personalized, and more ubiquitous.
Just like it did with computers.
3D printed skull implant:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-03/26/3d-printed-skull
That far, I’m with you. I was thinking more of every company, pretty much regardless of size, having a web page — because otherwise their potential customers will never hear of them. Or kids routinely having a tablet computer (more powerful than most mainframe computers in the mid-80s) . . . in grammer school. Let alone predicting the next Google.
That far, I’m with you. I was thinking more of every company, pretty much regardless of size, having a web page — because otherwise their potential customers will never hear of them. Or kids routinely having a tablet computer (more powerful than most mainframe computers in the mid-80s) . . . in grammer school. Let alone predicting the next Google.
wj:
Oh, absolutely. That’s what’s so exciting about it.
wj:
Oh, absolutely. That’s what’s so exciting about it.
I’d have to say that we are exceptionally lucky** to be alive when two such enormous bursts of innovation are coming thru. Just loving it! And wondering what the burst after biotech will be — say around 2040?
** Of course, those who are allergic to change would say that it’s BAD luck. It’s a hard time for folks who want the world to have frozen in place the way it was when they were 20.
I’d have to say that we are exceptionally lucky** to be alive when two such enormous bursts of innovation are coming thru. Just loving it! And wondering what the burst after biotech will be — say around 2040?
** Of course, those who are allergic to change would say that it’s BAD luck. It’s a hard time for folks who want the world to have frozen in place the way it was when they were 20.
I tend to ask myself, if I’d be better off being 10 years older or 10 years younger (being born in 1973). On the one hand I see the concrete progress like the way that dentists have lost most of the horror they held when I was a kid (full blown dental surgery now being less unpleasant than a simple filling a few decades ago), on the other I am deeply pessimistic about the future in social terms. I am not even thinking of climate change but the rise of neofeudalism and the systematic destruction of the social contract. as it looks to me, we will not lift the 3rd world population to our own level of comfort but we (‘we’ as in ‘the not super rich’) will get pushed down further towards them and if there is a revolution it will just accelerate the process. In other words I believe in ‘peak comfort’ and think that our best times are either already past or we are very close to the peak and will witness the decline in our own lifetime.
I tend to ask myself, if I’d be better off being 10 years older or 10 years younger (being born in 1973). On the one hand I see the concrete progress like the way that dentists have lost most of the horror they held when I was a kid (full blown dental surgery now being less unpleasant than a simple filling a few decades ago), on the other I am deeply pessimistic about the future in social terms. I am not even thinking of climate change but the rise of neofeudalism and the systematic destruction of the social contract. as it looks to me, we will not lift the 3rd world population to our own level of comfort but we (‘we’ as in ‘the not super rich’) will get pushed down further towards them and if there is a revolution it will just accelerate the process. In other words I believe in ‘peak comfort’ and think that our best times are either already past or we are very close to the peak and will witness the decline in our own lifetime.
I don’t think libertarians, as much as we may object to the way things are at the moment, are anywhere near that pessimistic. Most of us are cautiously optimism. At lease, I am.
I don’t think libertarians, as much as we may object to the way things are at the moment, are anywhere near that pessimistic. Most of us are cautiously optimism. At lease, I am.
I’m certainly optimistic. In my childhood, a case of strep throat would have killed me but for antibiotics, in my 30’s I broke my leg, and would have lost the foot to the medical technology of a couple decades before. In 2010 I was diagnosed with a cancer that would have been a death sentence a decade earlier, but had a 95% cure rate when I got it.
So far I’m catching the medical progress as I need it, and hoping that continues.
I’m certainly optimistic. In my childhood, a case of strep throat would have killed me but for antibiotics, in my 30’s I broke my leg, and would have lost the foot to the medical technology of a couple decades before. In 2010 I was diagnosed with a cancer that would have been a death sentence a decade earlier, but had a 95% cure rate when I got it.
So far I’m catching the medical progress as I need it, and hoping that continues.
To revisit an old conversation, pending appeal student-athletes are actually athlete-students. Well, the ones getting scholarships, anyway.
To revisit an old conversation, pending appeal student-athletes are actually athlete-students. Well, the ones getting scholarships, anyway.
Charles:
I would also say I am optimistic about the future. I don’t know if that is a general trend with ‘libertarians’ or not.
Although I suppose having some level of faith in humanity is required to think people can in many cases sort themselves without government intervention.
Libertarian or not, I don’t understand the dim view of the future.
Nationally, SSM is a great example of positive (imho, anyway) social change being affected at a rate that would be considered impossible a few years ago.
Internationally, I think the Arab Spring was a good thing, even if it is still in progress and didn’t result in an immediate utopia in the middle east. But I think progress has been made and the future will be brighter for it.
I’m sure there are other examples, but those are what come to mind.
Charles:
I would also say I am optimistic about the future. I don’t know if that is a general trend with ‘libertarians’ or not.
Although I suppose having some level of faith in humanity is required to think people can in many cases sort themselves without government intervention.
Libertarian or not, I don’t understand the dim view of the future.
Nationally, SSM is a great example of positive (imho, anyway) social change being affected at a rate that would be considered impossible a few years ago.
Internationally, I think the Arab Spring was a good thing, even if it is still in progress and didn’t result in an immediate utopia in the middle east. But I think progress has been made and the future will be brighter for it.
I’m sure there are other examples, but those are what come to mind.
I would say if things stayed the way they are in my part of the woods I’d be quite happy. I am aware that my high level of comfort is based on the misery of others less comfortable. I like to compare it to the process of Ostwald ripening with still enough small particles to lend seeming stability to medium sized ones (to which I belong). But what I see is an increasing pressure to destroy that pseudoequilibrium through shift of the critical diameter and increase of the ‘natural’ redistribution. To finally overstretch the analogy, someone is pouring cosurfcatant from a bottle labeled ‘libertarianism’ into the mixture while lying about the chain length. short term effect: the ripening process accelerates; long term result: the solution collapses. The Someone hopes that the latter will not happen before the former process is completed. And I am inclined to say ‘please pass me the acetone’.
I would say if things stayed the way they are in my part of the woods I’d be quite happy. I am aware that my high level of comfort is based on the misery of others less comfortable. I like to compare it to the process of Ostwald ripening with still enough small particles to lend seeming stability to medium sized ones (to which I belong). But what I see is an increasing pressure to destroy that pseudoequilibrium through shift of the critical diameter and increase of the ‘natural’ redistribution. To finally overstretch the analogy, someone is pouring cosurfcatant from a bottle labeled ‘libertarianism’ into the mixture while lying about the chain length. short term effect: the ripening process accelerates; long term result: the solution collapses. The Someone hopes that the latter will not happen before the former process is completed. And I am inclined to say ‘please pass me the acetone’.
As I have said above, I appreciate the huge progress in medicine and other fields and my own comfort is vastly increased by it. But I see that increasingly the fruits of this progress become unavailable to those lower than me on the social scale due to pricing and wage depression. Sooner or later that process will reach me (I already see more and more dentistry removed from the basic health insurance menu). Two class medicine is on the doorstep even around here and what use are the wonders of medical invention to those who cannot afford them any longer and even begin to lose what they yesterday still had? It’s two forces working in opposite direction and imo the downward one is going to win for the majority.
As I have said above, I appreciate the huge progress in medicine and other fields and my own comfort is vastly increased by it. But I see that increasingly the fruits of this progress become unavailable to those lower than me on the social scale due to pricing and wage depression. Sooner or later that process will reach me (I already see more and more dentistry removed from the basic health insurance menu). Two class medicine is on the doorstep even around here and what use are the wonders of medical invention to those who cannot afford them any longer and even begin to lose what they yesterday still had? It’s two forces working in opposite direction and imo the downward one is going to win for the majority.
NV, I think things would get far better if the NCAA required that universities NOT admit any athletes except on the same criteria as other students. That is, you have to get in just like anyone else. Then, and only then, can you even be considered for an athletic scholarship.
And I would probably exclude whatever lower standards apply to children of alumni or whatever other oddities a particular university has. You’ve gotta get in on scholastic merit before you get to play.
Of course, the universities make so much money off of athletics (specifically football and basketball) that they would fight it tooth and nail. But I suspect that most of them would find that they were doing just as well if not better, with the playing field leveled that way.
NV, I think things would get far better if the NCAA required that universities NOT admit any athletes except on the same criteria as other students. That is, you have to get in just like anyone else. Then, and only then, can you even be considered for an athletic scholarship.
And I would probably exclude whatever lower standards apply to children of alumni or whatever other oddities a particular university has. You’ve gotta get in on scholastic merit before you get to play.
Of course, the universities make so much money off of athletics (specifically football and basketball) that they would fight it tooth and nail. But I suspect that most of them would find that they were doing just as well if not better, with the playing field leveled that way.
And I thought I was prone to obscure analogies.
As I see it, we are in a race between the expanding capabilities of technology to improve our lives, and the expanding parasitic load of government and the crony capitalism it entails. At present most of the increased welfare technology produces is being diverted to a small segment of the population, not as a natural consequence of economics, but as a deliberate government policy.
For the same reason a dairy prefers a cow to a quarter million mice, the government prefers a wealthy person to a thousand prosperous people; It lowers the overhead in terms of wealth extraction. Additionally, the poor people produced are easy to render grateful with handouts, while moderately prosperous people can’t be bought off cost effectively.
So the government optimizes both it’s financial and power take, and the votes that keep it in a position to do so in a democracy, by increasing inequality of wealth.
But, all the while, the level of technology IS rising, and a lot of it has major disruptive potential. 3d printing, for instance, has the potential to move a lot of manufacturing into the home. Cheap powerful sensors coupled with software can do a lot of the work of doctors. There are people laboring to do to biology what has been done with PCs and printers, enable hobbyists to do what professionals can’t do today.
The Empire is striking back, for instance the attack on 23andme. But I think in the end the insurgents might win, with biology being as amenable to small scale work as wood and metal working are today.
Who knows, by the time my body is really falling apart, maybe I can get a new one printed?
And I thought I was prone to obscure analogies.
As I see it, we are in a race between the expanding capabilities of technology to improve our lives, and the expanding parasitic load of government and the crony capitalism it entails. At present most of the increased welfare technology produces is being diverted to a small segment of the population, not as a natural consequence of economics, but as a deliberate government policy.
For the same reason a dairy prefers a cow to a quarter million mice, the government prefers a wealthy person to a thousand prosperous people; It lowers the overhead in terms of wealth extraction. Additionally, the poor people produced are easy to render grateful with handouts, while moderately prosperous people can’t be bought off cost effectively.
So the government optimizes both it’s financial and power take, and the votes that keep it in a position to do so in a democracy, by increasing inequality of wealth.
But, all the while, the level of technology IS rising, and a lot of it has major disruptive potential. 3d printing, for instance, has the potential to move a lot of manufacturing into the home. Cheap powerful sensors coupled with software can do a lot of the work of doctors. There are people laboring to do to biology what has been done with PCs and printers, enable hobbyists to do what professionals can’t do today.
The Empire is striking back, for instance the attack on 23andme. But I think in the end the insurgents might win, with biology being as amenable to small scale work as wood and metal working are today.
Who knows, by the time my body is really falling apart, maybe I can get a new one printed?
But I see that increasingly the fruits of this progress become unavailable to those lower than me on the social scale due to pricing and wage depression.
Yes and no. I see some dips locally, especially with the effects of the recession. Income inequality is a problem (although I doubt we see the same solution).
But globally?
There is a huge drive to make medicine and tech cheaper, more robust, and more accessible to the large swathes of the population. And that gives me hope.
I worked with my local Engineers Without Borders chapter for awhile and I still keep up with their progress. They go into areas that have nothing and leave them with sanitation and clean water. That reduces sickness, which in turn increases productivity, which in turn reduces poverty, which in turn…etc etc
The world is getting to be a better place, IMHO. Not every single aspect is trending positive every moment, but enough are that overall I think it is getting better.
Maybe I just have rose-colored glasses on, I don’t know. Time will tell.
But I see that increasingly the fruits of this progress become unavailable to those lower than me on the social scale due to pricing and wage depression.
Yes and no. I see some dips locally, especially with the effects of the recession. Income inequality is a problem (although I doubt we see the same solution).
But globally?
There is a huge drive to make medicine and tech cheaper, more robust, and more accessible to the large swathes of the population. And that gives me hope.
I worked with my local Engineers Without Borders chapter for awhile and I still keep up with their progress. They go into areas that have nothing and leave them with sanitation and clean water. That reduces sickness, which in turn increases productivity, which in turn reduces poverty, which in turn…etc etc
The world is getting to be a better place, IMHO. Not every single aspect is trending positive every moment, but enough are that overall I think it is getting better.
Maybe I just have rose-colored glasses on, I don’t know. Time will tell.
And I would probably exclude whatever lower standards apply to children of alumni
I think the primary difference between the child of an alumnus and some other applicant is that an application from the former will get a “real” review during the admissions process; not generally lower standards.
And I would probably exclude whatever lower standards apply to children of alumni
I think the primary difference between the child of an alumnus and some other applicant is that an application from the former will get a “real” review during the admissions process; not generally lower standards.
thompson, I hope you are right. I just doubt it, longterm.
thompson, I hope you are right. I just doubt it, longterm.
Technology keeps finding new resources and making more efficient use of current ones. Less than ten years ago, I was still reminding myself to lift with my legs, not my back, when moving a 21″ computer monitor. Now I can lift one with a finger and thumb.
Technology keeps finding new resources and making more efficient use of current ones. Less than ten years ago, I was still reminding myself to lift with my legs, not my back, when moving a 21″ computer monitor. Now I can lift one with a finger and thumb.
@Hartmut: I see that increasingly the fruits of this progress become unavailable to those lower than me on the social scale due to pricing and wage depression.
What I see is that new advances are extremely expensive. But over time, the price comes down, and they become more affordable for everybody. Things are more expensive in the US than anywhere else, but even here, the prices eventually come down. Not down to the levels you see in Europe, but down nonetheless.
Brett: As I see it, we are in a race between the expanding capabilities of technology to improve our lives, and the expanding parasitic load of government and the crony capitalism it entails.
Would it be rude to point out that the basic research on which these technological advances are based (both biotech and computer tech) were mostly the result of government-funded basic research? Although admittedly the “conservatives” in Congress are increasingly succeeding in cutting that part of the budget. Even though they show much less inclination to cut things like subsidies for agriculture, hedge funds, etc.
@Hartmut: I see that increasingly the fruits of this progress become unavailable to those lower than me on the social scale due to pricing and wage depression.
What I see is that new advances are extremely expensive. But over time, the price comes down, and they become more affordable for everybody. Things are more expensive in the US than anywhere else, but even here, the prices eventually come down. Not down to the levels you see in Europe, but down nonetheless.
Brett: As I see it, we are in a race between the expanding capabilities of technology to improve our lives, and the expanding parasitic load of government and the crony capitalism it entails.
Would it be rude to point out that the basic research on which these technological advances are based (both biotech and computer tech) were mostly the result of government-funded basic research? Although admittedly the “conservatives” in Congress are increasingly succeeding in cutting that part of the budget. Even though they show much less inclination to cut things like subsidies for agriculture, hedge funds, etc.
Costs go down but do prices necessarily too? At least as far as advanced pharmaceuticals go the disparity grows in many cases. Rather recently a drug company bigwig made the mistake of speaking honestly uttering something along the line of ‘we develop for rich people in the West not 3rd world natives’ iirc in the context of a drug his company has a monopoly on that can be produced rather cheaply but is sold for an obscenely high price (and the guy did not bring up the valid argument that the development was risky and expensive leading to the need to recoup the costs before the patent runs out).
He who controls the process will coldly calculate how much can be squeezed out of the customers and set the prices accordingly. They’d do the same with oxygen, if they could get hold of the supply. At least in the West the state is reluctant to meddle there (in most cases with good reason) but we have seen a few cases where the state was in cahoots with the companies (cf. shakedowns of US seniors at the Canadian border that were suspected of buying their prescription drugs there at a third of the US price).
Costs go down but do prices necessarily too? At least as far as advanced pharmaceuticals go the disparity grows in many cases. Rather recently a drug company bigwig made the mistake of speaking honestly uttering something along the line of ‘we develop for rich people in the West not 3rd world natives’ iirc in the context of a drug his company has a monopoly on that can be produced rather cheaply but is sold for an obscenely high price (and the guy did not bring up the valid argument that the development was risky and expensive leading to the need to recoup the costs before the patent runs out).
He who controls the process will coldly calculate how much can be squeezed out of the customers and set the prices accordingly. They’d do the same with oxygen, if they could get hold of the supply. At least in the West the state is reluctant to meddle there (in most cases with good reason) but we have seen a few cases where the state was in cahoots with the companies (cf. shakedowns of US seniors at the Canadian border that were suspected of buying their prescription drugs there at a third of the US price).
Hartmut:
thompson, I hope you are right. I just doubt it, longterm.
I hope so too. Nobody has a crystal ball.
wj:
But over time, the price comes down, and they become more affordable for everybody.
Exactly. Look at cell phones, or the internet.
At least as far as advanced pharmaceuticals go the disparity grows in many cases.
In some cases. But that only lasts as long as the patent (not that there aren’t some problems with patent law). And, as you mention, there is substantial cost and risk associated with the development and testing of a drug.
made the mistake of speaking honestly uttering something along the line of ‘we develop for rich people in the West not 3rd world natives’
I’d agree companies should have a conscience and should look to better society overall. In my experience working with pharma scientists (not much interaction with management, so can’t speak to it), they in general care about their fellow man. My impression has been that most of them are there to make a difference and feel that they do.
I don’t want to speak too broadly about what this CEO said as I don’t have a quote or context, but from your take on it, it seems like he was pointing out a sad reality of the system (not making any claims about him finding it sad or not, but I find it sad). It’s expensive to develop drugs and the failure rate is high:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_development#Success_rate
If you had to do that all in an environment where your successes were sold at a small markup, you would never recoup development costs with in the patent window.
Hartmut:
thompson, I hope you are right. I just doubt it, longterm.
I hope so too. Nobody has a crystal ball.
wj:
But over time, the price comes down, and they become more affordable for everybody.
Exactly. Look at cell phones, or the internet.
At least as far as advanced pharmaceuticals go the disparity grows in many cases.
In some cases. But that only lasts as long as the patent (not that there aren’t some problems with patent law). And, as you mention, there is substantial cost and risk associated with the development and testing of a drug.
made the mistake of speaking honestly uttering something along the line of ‘we develop for rich people in the West not 3rd world natives’
I’d agree companies should have a conscience and should look to better society overall. In my experience working with pharma scientists (not much interaction with management, so can’t speak to it), they in general care about their fellow man. My impression has been that most of them are there to make a difference and feel that they do.
I don’t want to speak too broadly about what this CEO said as I don’t have a quote or context, but from your take on it, it seems like he was pointing out a sad reality of the system (not making any claims about him finding it sad or not, but I find it sad). It’s expensive to develop drugs and the failure rate is high:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_development#Success_rate
If you had to do that all in an environment where your successes were sold at a small markup, you would never recoup development costs with in the patent window.
There is one interesting point. Yes, it costs a lot, and there is a lot of risk, in developing a new drug. But what is interesting is that, as a first approximation, the entire cost/risk premium is folded into the price charged to customers in the US. Customers in Europe and other rich-world areas pay substantially less. Even before the patent runs out.
There is one interesting point. Yes, it costs a lot, and there is a lot of risk, in developing a new drug. But what is interesting is that, as a first approximation, the entire cost/risk premium is folded into the price charged to customers in the US. Customers in Europe and other rich-world areas pay substantially less. Even before the patent runs out.
wj:
Yeah, I think that’s an example of how broken our healthcare system is.
One of the major failings of our system, IMHO, is that the pricing of medicine and procedures is opaque. People have no concept of what anything costs, and none of the major players want them to. It’s really easy to skim off the top if nobody knows what the top is.
The US is somewhat unique in its massive, tax-free, employer given health insurance network. Actual costs are concealed, it’s impossible to comparison shop, even if there was any motivation to, and nobody is really interested in changing any of that.
Pharma companies have lobbyists in DC and a national healthcare system that hides actual costs. It is an environment conducive to high prices.
wj:
Yeah, I think that’s an example of how broken our healthcare system is.
One of the major failings of our system, IMHO, is that the pricing of medicine and procedures is opaque. People have no concept of what anything costs, and none of the major players want them to. It’s really easy to skim off the top if nobody knows what the top is.
The US is somewhat unique in its massive, tax-free, employer given health insurance network. Actual costs are concealed, it’s impossible to comparison shop, even if there was any motivation to, and nobody is really interested in changing any of that.
Pharma companies have lobbyists in DC and a national healthcare system that hides actual costs. It is an environment conducive to high prices.
“Would it be rude to point out that the basic research on which these technological advances are based (both biotech and computer tech) were mostly the result of government-funded basic research?”
Would it be rude to point out to you that that doesn’t help, if the government arranges for the whole gain from both public and private sector research to be captured by itself and a tiny segment of the population?
“Would it be rude to point out that the basic research on which these technological advances are based (both biotech and computer tech) were mostly the result of government-funded basic research?”
Would it be rude to point out to you that that doesn’t help, if the government arranges for the whole gain from both public and private sector research to be captured by itself and a tiny segment of the population?
The whole gain? What % of the whole gain is the govt capturing and how?
The whole gain? What % of the whole gain is the govt capturing and how?
I don’t understand the dim view of the future.
It seems to me that technology makes some things better, and some things worse.
It also seems to me that, historically, technology spreads its benefits less than equally.
My view of the future is not so much dim, as it is different but not necessarily better. Or, better but only in some ways, in some ways worse.
So, dim or rosy depends on whether the benefits of change flow your way or not.
But if we’re depending on technology per se to solve our problems, IMO we (or whoever is around) are going to be disappointed.
More to the point, maybe, if we’re depending on technology to solve our problems, I think we’re trying to solve the wrong problems.
I don’t understand the dim view of the future.
It seems to me that technology makes some things better, and some things worse.
It also seems to me that, historically, technology spreads its benefits less than equally.
My view of the future is not so much dim, as it is different but not necessarily better. Or, better but only in some ways, in some ways worse.
So, dim or rosy depends on whether the benefits of change flow your way or not.
But if we’re depending on technology per se to solve our problems, IMO we (or whoever is around) are going to be disappointed.
More to the point, maybe, if we’re depending on technology to solve our problems, I think we’re trying to solve the wrong problems.
More to the point, maybe, if we’re depending on technology to solve our problems, I think we’re trying to solve the wrong problems.
We could end a good deal of the human misery on our planet with existing technology. We, the human race as a whole, just don’t allocate resources in a way that will allow that to happen. We could feed every goddamned person on the planet and wipe out disease on a massive scale were it not for the lack of collective will.
We could also be happier as individuals if we weren’t so materialistic and status seeking. No new technology required there, either. We might even benefit from freeing ourselves from some existing technology.
More to the point, maybe, if we’re depending on technology to solve our problems, I think we’re trying to solve the wrong problems.
We could end a good deal of the human misery on our planet with existing technology. We, the human race as a whole, just don’t allocate resources in a way that will allow that to happen. We could feed every goddamned person on the planet and wipe out disease on a massive scale were it not for the lack of collective will.
We could also be happier as individuals if we weren’t so materialistic and status seeking. No new technology required there, either. We might even benefit from freeing ourselves from some existing technology.
thompson: Actual costs are concealed, it’s impossible to comparison shop, even if there was any motivation to, and nobody is really interested in changing any of that.
Insurance companies “comparison shop”, I bet. And they do it before their leg gets broken or their chest starts to hurt. The bigger the insurance company, the more bargaining power it has to drive down “actual costs”, I suspect. And what’s the biggest insurance company in America? Brett knows.
Brett: … the government arranges for the whole gain … to be captured by itself and a tiny segment of the population
Indeed. Medicare and the VA enrich Uncle Sam and the tiny segment of the population that is old or veteran.
Russell: It seems to me that technology makes some things better, and some things worse. It also seems to me that, historically, technology spreads its benefits less than equally.
Cellphones. I heard a story on the radio yesterday about a government program to provide cellphones to homeless people.
Before Brett goes nuts about that, let’s remember that it makes more sense than providing land lines to homeless people. But I digress.
The point is that cellphones are a technology that is by now practically indispensable for anyone who wants to participate in The Economy. Technology per se shrugs its shoulders and says “It’s not up to me to decide who gets to participate in the economy.”
–TP
thompson: Actual costs are concealed, it’s impossible to comparison shop, even if there was any motivation to, and nobody is really interested in changing any of that.
Insurance companies “comparison shop”, I bet. And they do it before their leg gets broken or their chest starts to hurt. The bigger the insurance company, the more bargaining power it has to drive down “actual costs”, I suspect. And what’s the biggest insurance company in America? Brett knows.
Brett: … the government arranges for the whole gain … to be captured by itself and a tiny segment of the population
Indeed. Medicare and the VA enrich Uncle Sam and the tiny segment of the population that is old or veteran.
Russell: It seems to me that technology makes some things better, and some things worse. It also seems to me that, historically, technology spreads its benefits less than equally.
Cellphones. I heard a story on the radio yesterday about a government program to provide cellphones to homeless people.
Before Brett goes nuts about that, let’s remember that it makes more sense than providing land lines to homeless people. But I digress.
The point is that cellphones are a technology that is by now practically indispensable for anyone who wants to participate in The Economy. Technology per se shrugs its shoulders and says “It’s not up to me to decide who gets to participate in the economy.”
–TP
Technology isn’t a solution to problems. A new technology merely offers options: a new way to possibly solve a problem, should human beings choose to use it. A decision which is (or should be) based on an evaluation of the benefits vs the costs of the solution — to the extent that the costs can be evaluated ahead of time.
For (a historical) example, technology provided us with a way to move water from the Colorado River and from Northern California to the Los Angeles area. That solved the problem that there were too many people and not enough water in the LA basin. A lot of dam building and canal/pipeline building technology was required to move that water. Until we developed it, there wasn’t a solution on the scale that the current infrastructure provides.
There were two costs to the solution:
– First was the cost of building the infrastructure. That was known, or at least roughly knowable, up front.
– Second was the environmental impact of all that water not going where it previously had. As far as I am aware, it didn’t even occur to anyone that they should consider that back when the projects were being approved.
Technology isn’t a solution to problems. A new technology merely offers options: a new way to possibly solve a problem, should human beings choose to use it. A decision which is (or should be) based on an evaluation of the benefits vs the costs of the solution — to the extent that the costs can be evaluated ahead of time.
For (a historical) example, technology provided us with a way to move water from the Colorado River and from Northern California to the Los Angeles area. That solved the problem that there were too many people and not enough water in the LA basin. A lot of dam building and canal/pipeline building technology was required to move that water. Until we developed it, there wasn’t a solution on the scale that the current infrastructure provides.
There were two costs to the solution:
– First was the cost of building the infrastructure. That was known, or at least roughly knowable, up front.
– Second was the environmental impact of all that water not going where it previously had. As far as I am aware, it didn’t even occur to anyone that they should consider that back when the projects were being approved.
Am I the only one who initially reads “whole gain” as “whole grain”? And why hasn’t anyone mentioned the “An” beginning the title of the post?
Am I the only one who initially reads “whole gain” as “whole grain”? And why hasn’t anyone mentioned the “An” beginning the title of the post?
For (a historical) example, technology provided us with a way to move water from the Colorado River and from Northern California to the Los Angeles area.
The centrifugal pump certainly played a role, but the basic technology is no big deal.
However, the politics of how it came to be are, to say the least, fascinating. You’ve never read Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner? Highly recommended.
For (a historical) example, technology provided us with a way to move water from the Colorado River and from Northern California to the Los Angeles area.
The centrifugal pump certainly played a role, but the basic technology is no big deal.
However, the politics of how it came to be are, to say the least, fascinating. You’ve never read Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner? Highly recommended.
And why hasn’t anyone mentioned the “An” beginning the title of the post?
Because everyone is wary of incurring my wrath? I had an adjective that began with vowel there, but now I can’t remember what it was.
And why hasn’t anyone mentioned the “An” beginning the title of the post?
Because everyone is wary of incurring my wrath? I had an adjective that began with vowel there, but now I can’t remember what it was.
The basic technology, as in build a dam and a canal, goes back for centuries. But the technology to actually build something like Hoover Dam? Much more recent.
The basic technology, as in build a dam and a canal, goes back for centuries. But the technology to actually build something like Hoover Dam? Much more recent.
Pioneering design and construction techniques, which can reasonably fall under the heading “technology,” at the very least.
Pioneering design and construction techniques, which can reasonably fall under the heading “technology,” at the very least.
Insurance companies “comparison shop”, I bet.
To some extent. But they are basically engaging in a form of arbitrage, imho. With a large risk pool, good actuaries, and contracts that only last a couple of years, they can pass costs fairly directly on employers buying the plans. And the more expensive healthcare is overall, the more money they can skim.
If you were in a position to where you could recover 5-10% of benefits paid out as profit, how motivated would you be to ensure benefits paid out are as small as possible?
Clearly its a little more complex than that, I’m just not seeing insurance companies being incredibly motivated to institute changes in the system which will decrease healthcare costs overall.
As long as they can maintain a balanced risk pool, they are in a great position of taking money from the population, taking a cut, and redistributing the rest.
And they do it before their leg gets broken or their chest starts to hurt.
And emergency care is a tiny fraction of our healthcare costs. Managing chronic disease is a huge cost. And the costs of chronic conditions are growing, and the major driver of medicare expansion.
~95% of the healthcare costs of the elderly is for chronic conditions:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=410506 (paywalled, sorry)
Medication you are taking every day for the rest of your life is exactly the kind of thing that should be well positioned for comparison shopping.
Insurance companies “comparison shop”, I bet.
To some extent. But they are basically engaging in a form of arbitrage, imho. With a large risk pool, good actuaries, and contracts that only last a couple of years, they can pass costs fairly directly on employers buying the plans. And the more expensive healthcare is overall, the more money they can skim.
If you were in a position to where you could recover 5-10% of benefits paid out as profit, how motivated would you be to ensure benefits paid out are as small as possible?
Clearly its a little more complex than that, I’m just not seeing insurance companies being incredibly motivated to institute changes in the system which will decrease healthcare costs overall.
As long as they can maintain a balanced risk pool, they are in a great position of taking money from the population, taking a cut, and redistributing the rest.
And they do it before their leg gets broken or their chest starts to hurt.
And emergency care is a tiny fraction of our healthcare costs. Managing chronic disease is a huge cost. And the costs of chronic conditions are growing, and the major driver of medicare expansion.
~95% of the healthcare costs of the elderly is for chronic conditions:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=410506 (paywalled, sorry)
Medication you are taking every day for the rest of your life is exactly the kind of thing that should be well positioned for comparison shopping.
And back to technological advances:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/343/6178/1426.full
Researchers fully replaced a yeast chromosome with a completely synthetic one. This has broad implications in biotech and medicine. A major one I can think of is the ability to more efficiently produce and modify human proteins in yeast bioreactors.
Therapies that require protein treatments are often staggeringly expensive.
And many proteins which are natively processed by human cells into their functional form can’t be produced in yeast due to a lack of the processing machinery, making them either cost-prohibitive or impossible to produce for treatments.
Potentially, this could open new doors into cheaper and more effective protein-based therapies.
Many years out, but again, exciting times we live in.
And back to technological advances:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/343/6178/1426.full
Researchers fully replaced a yeast chromosome with a completely synthetic one. This has broad implications in biotech and medicine. A major one I can think of is the ability to more efficiently produce and modify human proteins in yeast bioreactors.
Therapies that require protein treatments are often staggeringly expensive.
And many proteins which are natively processed by human cells into their functional form can’t be produced in yeast due to a lack of the processing machinery, making them either cost-prohibitive or impossible to produce for treatments.
Potentially, this could open new doors into cheaper and more effective protein-based therapies.
Many years out, but again, exciting times we live in.
An example of new Alzheimers’ diagnostic tests on the near horizon that could cause the remaining long-term care insurance companies to raise their premiums drastically and eventually stop offering the policies altogether.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2114603-how-alzheimers-blood-tests-could-paradoxically-free-the-long-term-care-market
The author’s ultimate point is that this will “free” the long term care facility market to lower prices drastically, but he offers no detail on where these costs cuts would be attained.
Labor: it’s already near minimum wage subsistence living to have an individual changing diapers in an Alzheimer’s ward.
My family now pays nearly what it would cost to place my mother in a private facility (she has no long-term insurance) to keep her in her home with home-care companions on hand roughly 60 hours per week.
These individuals are not paid well for the work they do, and I know this, because I do the work, as does my brother, when I can travel there.
Our wonderful home care providers of course can return to their lives and families after their shifts are over, but the sheer mental/psychological toll on the family member(s) who have it their faces 24 hours a day is overwhelming.
I suppose robotics and surveillance advances might help in some aspects, and I suppose dementia might be cured or prevented pharmacologically, though I’m hard-pressed to see how it could be reversed in those who already suffer, but I’d like to see the robot who can wipe my mother’s tush up to eight times a day on some days and reason with her as it happens on her bad days, which are becoming more frequent.
I suspect that if the author’s projections are correct and the long-term care market collapses, and Medicare and Medicaid are drowned in the bathtub as well, as so many murderers in our midst desire, the only “technology” that will alleviate society’s problem will be the technology of euthanasia, perhaps printed out at home.
If my mother as I knew her most of my life could observe for one 24-hour cycle her current condition, she would turn to her family and beg us: “Please help me to go!”
Brett wrote:
“Who knows, by the time my body is really falling apart, maybe I can get a new one printed?”
Would you print out the identical body, or perhaps go for something more custom, perhaps Sean Connery’s, or God forbid, Jessica Rabbit’s.
Send us photos.
An example of new Alzheimers’ diagnostic tests on the near horizon that could cause the remaining long-term care insurance companies to raise their premiums drastically and eventually stop offering the policies altogether.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2114603-how-alzheimers-blood-tests-could-paradoxically-free-the-long-term-care-market
The author’s ultimate point is that this will “free” the long term care facility market to lower prices drastically, but he offers no detail on where these costs cuts would be attained.
Labor: it’s already near minimum wage subsistence living to have an individual changing diapers in an Alzheimer’s ward.
My family now pays nearly what it would cost to place my mother in a private facility (she has no long-term insurance) to keep her in her home with home-care companions on hand roughly 60 hours per week.
These individuals are not paid well for the work they do, and I know this, because I do the work, as does my brother, when I can travel there.
Our wonderful home care providers of course can return to their lives and families after their shifts are over, but the sheer mental/psychological toll on the family member(s) who have it their faces 24 hours a day is overwhelming.
I suppose robotics and surveillance advances might help in some aspects, and I suppose dementia might be cured or prevented pharmacologically, though I’m hard-pressed to see how it could be reversed in those who already suffer, but I’d like to see the robot who can wipe my mother’s tush up to eight times a day on some days and reason with her as it happens on her bad days, which are becoming more frequent.
I suspect that if the author’s projections are correct and the long-term care market collapses, and Medicare and Medicaid are drowned in the bathtub as well, as so many murderers in our midst desire, the only “technology” that will alleviate society’s problem will be the technology of euthanasia, perhaps printed out at home.
If my mother as I knew her most of my life could observe for one 24-hour cycle her current condition, she would turn to her family and beg us: “Please help me to go!”
Brett wrote:
“Who knows, by the time my body is really falling apart, maybe I can get a new one printed?”
Would you print out the identical body, or perhaps go for something more custom, perhaps Sean Connery’s, or God forbid, Jessica Rabbit’s.
Send us photos.
…perhaps Sean Connery’s
That’s not what your mother said, Trebek!
…perhaps Sean Connery’s
That’s not what your mother said, Trebek!
Count, my deepest condolences for your mother. Both of my grandmothers suffered from Alzheimer’s before passing long ago. They were fortunate that their husbands were alive and well enough to take care of them.
But the toll on my grandfathers was enormous.
I hear of of promising lead candidates every now and again from friends in the pharma industry. None have panned out so far, but I feel we are getting closer.
None of this helps you, but perhaps you can have some comfort that there is headway against the disease and some future generation will not be as afflicted as you are now.
It’s a horrible disease. You have nothing but my respect and sympathy.
Count, my deepest condolences for your mother. Both of my grandmothers suffered from Alzheimer’s before passing long ago. They were fortunate that their husbands were alive and well enough to take care of them.
But the toll on my grandfathers was enormous.
I hear of of promising lead candidates every now and again from friends in the pharma industry. None have panned out so far, but I feel we are getting closer.
None of this helps you, but perhaps you can have some comfort that there is headway against the disease and some future generation will not be as afflicted as you are now.
It’s a horrible disease. You have nothing but my respect and sympathy.
Thanks, thompson. It is what it is and millions of families are in the same boat.
Thanks, thompson. It is what it is and millions of families are in the same boat.
Crap. After reading thompson’s comment, it seems I didn’t even think about the words “your mother” in my SNL quote there. Sorry. That’s not remotely where I intended that to go.
…I’ll just be over here in the corner shoving toothpicks into my eyeballs for the rest of the day.
Crap. After reading thompson’s comment, it seems I didn’t even think about the words “your mother” in my SNL quote there. Sorry. That’s not remotely where I intended that to go.
…I’ll just be over here in the corner shoving toothpicks into my eyeballs for the rest of the day.
Hey, no sweat, hairshirt, it’s right up my humor alley.
My mother of a few years ago would have laughed at that SNL bit, as I did. Of course, if she saw it today, she might think to ask “Who’s Sean Connery?”
After I read your comments, I walked around doing my Scot’s mushmouthed Sean Connery impression (Thatsh noat what your mother shaid lasht night, Trebek) to great applause from my furniture.
Even though it sounded alarmingly like my Jimmy Durante that went on for some time yesterday, Mrs … Calabash!
Less hairshirt, more hedonist.
Hey, no sweat, hairshirt, it’s right up my humor alley.
My mother of a few years ago would have laughed at that SNL bit, as I did. Of course, if she saw it today, she might think to ask “Who’s Sean Connery?”
After I read your comments, I walked around doing my Scot’s mushmouthed Sean Connery impression (Thatsh noat what your mother shaid lasht night, Trebek) to great applause from my furniture.
Even though it sounded alarmingly like my Jimmy Durante that went on for some time yesterday, Mrs … Calabash!
Less hairshirt, more hedonist.
“Would you print out the identical body, or perhaps go for something more custom, perhaps Sean Connery’s, or God forbid, Jessica Rabbit’s.”
The younger me wasn’t a bad look, once I got my teeth straightened. More Irish then, the German has come out as I aged. Might go for my favorite comic book character, Adam Warlock, though, if they’ve got metalic skin as an available option…
“Would you print out the identical body, or perhaps go for something more custom, perhaps Sean Connery’s, or God forbid, Jessica Rabbit’s.”
The younger me wasn’t a bad look, once I got my teeth straightened. More Irish then, the German has come out as I aged. Might go for my favorite comic book character, Adam Warlock, though, if they’ve got metalic skin as an available option…
Would you print out the identical body, or perhaps go for something more custom, perhaps Sean Connery’s, or God forbid, Jessica Rabbit’s.
You guys are thinking way too small-bore.
If you’re going to print yourself a brand new body, you might as well go big.
Print up the new you as Godzilla, or maybe something with wings. X-ray vision, or even full electromagnetic spectrum vision.
Maybe some funky iridescent skin, or hair that glows in the dark.
Inflatable air sacs so you never have to worry about drowning. Hell, go for gills.
Dual voice box so you can sing like a great big thrush.
Seriously, we built out this great big internet, and we use it to look at each other’s cats. Let’s not let 3D printing go down that same pedestrian path.
Count, so sorry about your mom.
Would you print out the identical body, or perhaps go for something more custom, perhaps Sean Connery’s, or God forbid, Jessica Rabbit’s.
You guys are thinking way too small-bore.
If you’re going to print yourself a brand new body, you might as well go big.
Print up the new you as Godzilla, or maybe something with wings. X-ray vision, or even full electromagnetic spectrum vision.
Maybe some funky iridescent skin, or hair that glows in the dark.
Inflatable air sacs so you never have to worry about drowning. Hell, go for gills.
Dual voice box so you can sing like a great big thrush.
Seriously, we built out this great big internet, and we use it to look at each other’s cats. Let’s not let 3D printing go down that same pedestrian path.
Count, so sorry about your mom.
I had an adjective that began with vowel there, but now I can’t remember what it was.
Because you can’t stop me, I’m going to assume “inexpensive”.
I had an adjective that began with vowel there, but now I can’t remember what it was.
Because you can’t stop me, I’m going to assume “inexpensive”.
Seriously, we built out this great big internet, and we use it to look at each other’s cats. Let’s not let 3D printing go down that same pedestrian path.
This. A thousand times this. We need to make sure 3D printing doesn’t descend into vapid pedestrian distractionism and truly makes a difference in the world, and in doing so, we need to pull the Internet back up out of that same pit so much of it has slumped into.
We need to use 3D printing to print out each other’s cats.
Seriously, we built out this great big internet, and we use it to look at each other’s cats. Let’s not let 3D printing go down that same pedestrian path.
This. A thousand times this. We need to make sure 3D printing doesn’t descend into vapid pedestrian distractionism and truly makes a difference in the world, and in doing so, we need to pull the Internet back up out of that same pit so much of it has slumped into.
We need to use 3D printing to print out each other’s cats.
Thanks, Count. Like the ghost of the little girl from The Sixth Sense said, just after vomiting on her jammies, “I’m feeling much better now.”
Thanks, Count. Like the ghost of the little girl from The Sixth Sense said, just after vomiting on her jammies, “I’m feeling much better now.”
Well, I’m sorry to be relentlessly cheerful, its a curse I suppose. But:
Seriously, we built out this great big internet, and we use it to look at each other’s cats.
I’m not taking that comment as the end all be all of Russells thoughts on the internet, but we have done SO MUCH MORE then pictures of cats wanting cheezeburgers.
I consider twitter and facebook among the most vapid platforms out there: but they’ve organized protests and revolutions.
In seconds I have more data available from Wikipedia than a room full of reference books would have provided.
There are millions of peer-reviewed papers archived on the internet (largely paywalled but one thing at a time) accessible.
I can video chat with my wife every night even though we live miles apart.
I had a conversation with some friends awhile ago about 3D printing. We talked big and waxed eloquent about all the things, big and small we will be able to do. But we came to one conclusion that seemed basically inescapable:
People are going to print out sex toys. It’s going to happen, if it hasn’t already.
But you know what? Good on them. It’ll push the technology forward, just like porn did for the internet. And we still get 3D printed skulls and tracheas (http://www.nature.com/news/3-d-printed-windpipe-gives-infant-breath-of-life-1.13085).
Every technology is going to be used for perfectly pedestrian things. But those don’t detract from the good things that result.
IMHO, of course.
Well, I’m sorry to be relentlessly cheerful, its a curse I suppose. But:
Seriously, we built out this great big internet, and we use it to look at each other’s cats.
I’m not taking that comment as the end all be all of Russells thoughts on the internet, but we have done SO MUCH MORE then pictures of cats wanting cheezeburgers.
I consider twitter and facebook among the most vapid platforms out there: but they’ve organized protests and revolutions.
In seconds I have more data available from Wikipedia than a room full of reference books would have provided.
There are millions of peer-reviewed papers archived on the internet (largely paywalled but one thing at a time) accessible.
I can video chat with my wife every night even though we live miles apart.
I had a conversation with some friends awhile ago about 3D printing. We talked big and waxed eloquent about all the things, big and small we will be able to do. But we came to one conclusion that seemed basically inescapable:
People are going to print out sex toys. It’s going to happen, if it hasn’t already.
But you know what? Good on them. It’ll push the technology forward, just like porn did for the internet. And we still get 3D printed skulls and tracheas (http://www.nature.com/news/3-d-printed-windpipe-gives-infant-breath-of-life-1.13085).
Every technology is going to be used for perfectly pedestrian things. But those don’t detract from the good things that result.
IMHO, of course.
Wow, just realized that comment was very stream of consciousness. Sorry if it’s a little unclear, major points:
-Not trying to bag on russell for the cat comment. It’s true, but I don’t think its the whole story.
-We’ve done some great stuff with the internet
-3D printing…regardless of what pedestrian things it is used for, it will be used (and has been) for great things as well.
Wow, just realized that comment was very stream of consciousness. Sorry if it’s a little unclear, major points:
-Not trying to bag on russell for the cat comment. It’s true, but I don’t think its the whole story.
-We’ve done some great stuff with the internet
-3D printing…regardless of what pedestrian things it is used for, it will be used (and has been) for great things as well.
People are going to print out sex toys. It’s going to happen, if it hasn’t already.
It’s happen already.
People are going to print out sex toys. It’s going to happen, if it hasn’t already.
It’s happen already.
Well *I* want to have a built-in 3D printer accessory for my new artificial body.
Okay, so all the wimminz would say “already got one”, but its repertoire is so limited.
Well *I* want to have a built-in 3D printer accessory for my new artificial body.
Okay, so all the wimminz would say “already got one”, but its repertoire is so limited.
If you’re going to print yourself a brand new body, you might as well go big.
Print up the new you as Godzilla, or maybe something with wings.
That works if, and only if, you are also seriously rich. It may have escaped your notice (depending on your current size), but the world is designed for short people. Anyone over about 6′ tall has encountered this. Anyone over 6’3″ encounters it all the time — and not just on airplanes.
so if you are going to be lots bigger, you are either going to seriously constrict how you can travel and where you can go, or you are going to have to be rich enough to buy your own plane, vehicle (can’t really call it a car any more, if it is big enough to hold Godzilla!), etc. And have a custom house built, because standard ones won’t have adequate dimensions. And hire on a cook (if you don’t do all your own cooking), because you won’t fit in restaurants either. And so on and so on.
Yeah, if you got picked on as a kid (or even as an adult), being bigger sounds great. But think a minute about your average day. And what will not be possible if you get too much bigger than the median.
If you’re going to print yourself a brand new body, you might as well go big.
Print up the new you as Godzilla, or maybe something with wings.
That works if, and only if, you are also seriously rich. It may have escaped your notice (depending on your current size), but the world is designed for short people. Anyone over about 6′ tall has encountered this. Anyone over 6’3″ encounters it all the time — and not just on airplanes.
so if you are going to be lots bigger, you are either going to seriously constrict how you can travel and where you can go, or you are going to have to be rich enough to buy your own plane, vehicle (can’t really call it a car any more, if it is big enough to hold Godzilla!), etc. And have a custom house built, because standard ones won’t have adequate dimensions. And hire on a cook (if you don’t do all your own cooking), because you won’t fit in restaurants either. And so on and so on.
Yeah, if you got picked on as a kid (or even as an adult), being bigger sounds great. But think a minute about your average day. And what will not be possible if you get too much bigger than the median.
Something I never realized (consciously anyway):
“Ink is two times more expensive than French perfume by volume,” . . . : Chanel No. 5 perfume costs $38 per ounce, while the equivalent amount of Hewlett-Packard printer ink can cost up to $75.”
See this article on how to save the government money by just changing the font used on government forms.
“And a little child shall lead them.”
Something I never realized (consciously anyway):
“Ink is two times more expensive than French perfume by volume,” . . . : Chanel No. 5 perfume costs $38 per ounce, while the equivalent amount of Hewlett-Packard printer ink can cost up to $75.”
See this article on how to save the government money by just changing the font used on government forms.
“And a little child shall lead them.”
If you were in a position to where you could recover 5-10% of benefits paid out as profit, how motivated would you be to ensure benefits paid out are as small as possible?
Highly. In fact this is exactly what has been observed in the real world. In fact, if free market principles could actually apply in the health care market (they can’t, by the way) insurers would squeeze suppliers just as hard as the Walton family squeezes theirs.
As for the investment risk undertaken by the poor pharmaceutical companies…there are other ways to manage that risk. See Dean Baker for the details.
If you were in a position to where you could recover 5-10% of benefits paid out as profit, how motivated would you be to ensure benefits paid out are as small as possible?
Highly. In fact this is exactly what has been observed in the real world. In fact, if free market principles could actually apply in the health care market (they can’t, by the way) insurers would squeeze suppliers just as hard as the Walton family squeezes theirs.
As for the investment risk undertaken by the poor pharmaceutical companies…there are other ways to manage that risk. See Dean Baker for the details.
You don’t have to be a full-size Godzilla, just scale it down enough so that you can still buy suits.
Suits with slits to accommodate your scaly spinal plates.
We need to use 3D printing to print out each other’s cats.
With gills!
You don’t have to be a full-size Godzilla, just scale it down enough so that you can still buy suits.
Suits with slits to accommodate your scaly spinal plates.
We need to use 3D printing to print out each other’s cats.
With gills!
I think you’re getting your biotech and 3-D printing ambitions twisted up, russell.
I think you’re getting your biotech and 3-D printing ambitions twisted up, russell.
While the husband is in his basement shop printing out the new sex toy for his wife, the wife is upstairs in the spare bedroom printing out the entirely new husband.
Women think big.
“That’s not what your mother said last night, Trebeck”, said the 3-D Sean Connery.
While the husband is in his basement shop printing out the new sex toy for his wife, the wife is upstairs in the spare bedroom printing out the entirely new husband.
Women think big.
“That’s not what your mother said last night, Trebeck”, said the 3-D Sean Connery.
I think you’re getting your biotech and 3-D printing ambitions twisted up, russell.
Hey, Brett started it, with his “I’m gonna print myself a new body” talk.
All I ask is that we never combine 3D printers and fax machines.
It’s bad enough walking into our home office and finding a pile of ads for seamless gutters, penny stocks, and pizza delivery, I don’t want to walk into a room full of unanticipated Lego creatures.
I think you’re getting your biotech and 3-D printing ambitions twisted up, russell.
Hey, Brett started it, with his “I’m gonna print myself a new body” talk.
All I ask is that we never combine 3D printers and fax machines.
It’s bad enough walking into our home office and finding a pile of ads for seamless gutters, penny stocks, and pizza delivery, I don’t want to walk into a room full of unanticipated Lego creatures.
bobbyp:
I’d seen that Baker piece before. It doesn’t really offer solutions.
He offers some rough conjectures about inefficiencies inherent in the current system, which are reasonable, but doesn’t offer much evidence that a publicly funded system would necessarily be more efficient.
Most of the inefficiencies he’s identified are not solved by public funding, but by providing separation between the company developing the drug and the company running the trial. As far as it goes, I don’t think that’s a terrible idea.
Again, he doesn’t really attach specific costs to any of these inefficiencies, just points out that they are there.
And finally, his analysis only covers clinical trials, and glosses over the preclinical discovery phase, which accounts for around 40% of the cost of bringing a drug to market.
How does he get cost savings from public funding?
“If the public financing of drug trials is tied to a mandated reduction of 40 percent in the prices paid for drugs in the Medicare drug program”
Basically, if we mandate reductions in how much we spend, we’ll spend less. Shocking, I know.
He wants to use public funding of clinical trials to politically negotiate for lower medicare drug costs.
Or, you know, CMS could negotiate lower rates like the VA has done. No need for public spending on the clinical trials.
bobbyp:
I’d seen that Baker piece before. It doesn’t really offer solutions.
He offers some rough conjectures about inefficiencies inherent in the current system, which are reasonable, but doesn’t offer much evidence that a publicly funded system would necessarily be more efficient.
Most of the inefficiencies he’s identified are not solved by public funding, but by providing separation between the company developing the drug and the company running the trial. As far as it goes, I don’t think that’s a terrible idea.
Again, he doesn’t really attach specific costs to any of these inefficiencies, just points out that they are there.
And finally, his analysis only covers clinical trials, and glosses over the preclinical discovery phase, which accounts for around 40% of the cost of bringing a drug to market.
How does he get cost savings from public funding?
“If the public financing of drug trials is tied to a mandated reduction of 40 percent in the prices paid for drugs in the Medicare drug program”
Basically, if we mandate reductions in how much we spend, we’ll spend less. Shocking, I know.
He wants to use public funding of clinical trials to politically negotiate for lower medicare drug costs.
Or, you know, CMS could negotiate lower rates like the VA has done. No need for public spending on the clinical trials.
“…why hasn’t anyone mentioned the ‘An’…?”
Hey! I had to read the comments first to see whether anyone had yet!
I do have a theory on that, though: you can use “an” as the, like, formal/honorific/high-falutin’ form of “a” – this comes from the confusion caused by the finger-quote “optional” use of “an” before certain h-words.
Try it!
“…why hasn’t anyone mentioned the ‘An’…?”
Hey! I had to read the comments first to see whether anyone had yet!
I do have a theory on that, though: you can use “an” as the, like, formal/honorific/high-falutin’ form of “a” – this comes from the confusion caused by the finger-quote “optional” use of “an” before certain h-words.
Try it!
Since this is an open thread, I found this migration data. I wish I could show the chart, its pretty cool.
http://qz.com/192440/where-everyone-in-the-world-is-migrating-in-one-gorgeous-chart/
Since this is an open thread, I found this migration data. I wish I could show the chart, its pretty cool.
http://qz.com/192440/where-everyone-in-the-world-is-migrating-in-one-gorgeous-chart/
The amount of immigration to the UAE is rather astonishing. I knew that they had a lot of ex-pats (to do all the work tha the natives find beneath them). But the numbers are higher than I would have thought — the place just isn’t that big!
The amount of immigration to the UAE is rather astonishing. I knew that they had a lot of ex-pats (to do all the work tha the natives find beneath them). But the numbers are higher than I would have thought — the place just isn’t that big!
wj:
A friend of mine is an Indian expat (would love a green card, but our immigration policy is…not functional.). Most of his family works/worked in the UAE at some point. I got the vague impression from him that the UAE is a major destination for Indians trying to get out of India.
But I didn’t think the efflux would be that large. Thanks for the link, Marty.
wj:
A friend of mine is an Indian expat (would love a green card, but our immigration policy is…not functional.). Most of his family works/worked in the UAE at some point. I got the vague impression from him that the UAE is a major destination for Indians trying to get out of India.
But I didn’t think the efflux would be that large. Thanks for the link, Marty.
Is there a libertarian perspective on the legitimacy of national borders?
Is there a libertarian perspective on the legitimacy of national borders?
An interesting link from Mother Jones on Apples view of what innovation is….
http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/03/apple-has-patented-clicking-phone-number-dial-phone-seriously
Now we’re talking
An interesting link from Mother Jones on Apples view of what innovation is….
http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/03/apple-has-patented-clicking-phone-number-dial-phone-seriously
Now we’re talking
On obviousness.
On obviousness.
Ugh:
I’ve never seen one that phrased the question that way. Most libertarian’s I know personally are largely in the open border (or close to it) camp. The US-LP has a fairly soft stance on immigration restrictions:
http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration
So I would say the open border movement has a home in the LP, although that’s hardly universal:
http://openborders.info/libertarian/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_perspectives_on_immigration
http://mises.org/journals/jls/13_2/13_2_3.pdf
http://mises.org/journals/jls/13_2/13_2_4.pdf
Ugh:
I’ve never seen one that phrased the question that way. Most libertarian’s I know personally are largely in the open border (or close to it) camp. The US-LP has a fairly soft stance on immigration restrictions:
http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration
So I would say the open border movement has a home in the LP, although that’s hardly universal:
http://openborders.info/libertarian/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_perspectives_on_immigration
http://mises.org/journals/jls/13_2/13_2_3.pdf
http://mises.org/journals/jls/13_2/13_2_4.pdf
Dobe, you’re an honest and decent man, with the exception of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlVcrsjHPbg
Dobe, you’re an honest and decent man, with the exception of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlVcrsjHPbg
I had a snappy comeback but got sidetracked with this documentary on our upgraded intelligence capabilities:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dUolPUFEpZo
I had a snappy comeback but got sidetracked with this documentary on our upgraded intelligence capabilities:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dUolPUFEpZo
Wow, I really messed that URL up:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ppOUee-dyi0
Wow, I really messed that URL up:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ppOUee-dyi0
In media news today, CNN is going to load up a 787 with its entire domestic and international news teams and relatives and fly it along the exact route the ill-fated Malaysian Airlines flew, until they run out of jet fuel and hopefully put it into a dive exactly where the first plane crashed.
They’ll have a live feed of the goings-on on board, with passenger interviews as luggage topples from the overhead compartments, until the bitter end.
Their new broadcast motto: When there’s not enough news, make some!
NEWSMAX will then report that Barack Hussein Obama ordered the Muslim hijacking of a second plane to crash into Obama bin Laden’s crash site in the Indian Ocean.
Roger Ailes will throw a paperweight across the room at his producers and roar “Can any of you emaciated bastards tell me why we didn’t have some of our people on board! What the hell was Hannity doing that was so important!”
In other news, even the gun lovers are becoming frightened of the violent Republican rhetoric directed at gun legislation and public figures by demonstrators in new York State.
If they are so frightened by violent threats, why don’t they shoot the demonstrators and save the gummint the trouble.
I thought that was the point of concealed carry and so on, to defend against perpetrators in our midst who are threatening to hurt people.
What, they aren’t wearing hoodies?
Here’s their chance.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/thomas-king-gun-control-rallies
In media news today, CNN is going to load up a 787 with its entire domestic and international news teams and relatives and fly it along the exact route the ill-fated Malaysian Airlines flew, until they run out of jet fuel and hopefully put it into a dive exactly where the first plane crashed.
They’ll have a live feed of the goings-on on board, with passenger interviews as luggage topples from the overhead compartments, until the bitter end.
Their new broadcast motto: When there’s not enough news, make some!
NEWSMAX will then report that Barack Hussein Obama ordered the Muslim hijacking of a second plane to crash into Obama bin Laden’s crash site in the Indian Ocean.
Roger Ailes will throw a paperweight across the room at his producers and roar “Can any of you emaciated bastards tell me why we didn’t have some of our people on board! What the hell was Hannity doing that was so important!”
In other news, even the gun lovers are becoming frightened of the violent Republican rhetoric directed at gun legislation and public figures by demonstrators in new York State.
If they are so frightened by violent threats, why don’t they shoot the demonstrators and save the gummint the trouble.
I thought that was the point of concealed carry and so on, to defend against perpetrators in our midst who are threatening to hurt people.
What, they aren’t wearing hoodies?
Here’s their chance.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/thomas-king-gun-control-rallies
An interesting link from Mother Jones on Apples view of what innovation is…
LOL.
I’m waiting for the patent on “use of the color blue in a computer user interface”. Don’t laugh, it could happen.
Also, what could be better than Dobie Gillis and F Troop in the same thread?
An interesting link from Mother Jones on Apples view of what innovation is…
LOL.
I’m waiting for the patent on “use of the color blue in a computer user interface”. Don’t laugh, it could happen.
Also, what could be better than Dobie Gillis and F Troop in the same thread?
Libertarians favor open borders, we also favor a nightwatchman state. These two policies are not unrelated; you can’t have open borders AND a welfare state, especially when there’s a third world contry on your border.
The order these two goals are acheived in is rather important. Some Libertarians don’t agree, of course.
Libertarians favor open borders, we also favor a nightwatchman state. These two policies are not unrelated; you can’t have open borders AND a welfare state, especially when there’s a third world contry on your border.
The order these two goals are acheived in is rather important. Some Libertarians don’t agree, of course.
Well, maybe you can’t have open borders and a below radar job market with work that no one else will do, welfare state or not.
Mexican immigrants work their asses off. Their children work their asses off.
They pick, and you eat cheap.
Well, maybe you can’t have open borders and a below radar job market with work that no one else will do, welfare state or not.
Mexican immigrants work their asses off. Their children work their asses off.
They pick, and you eat cheap.
How is it that this ….:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117170/lgbt-rights-sidelined-after-ukrainian-revolution
… is just like this:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/03/28/extreme-anti-gay-group-is-hosting-an-evening-wi/198658
How does Moe Lane sleep at night?
How is it that this ….:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117170/lgbt-rights-sidelined-after-ukrainian-revolution
… is just like this:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/03/28/extreme-anti-gay-group-is-hosting-an-evening-wi/198658
How does Moe Lane sleep at night?
Libertarians favor open borders, we also favor a nightwatchman state. These two policies are not unrelated; you can’t have open borders AND a welfare state, especially when there’s a third world contry on your border.
Why not?
Libertarians favor open borders, we also favor a nightwatchman state. These two policies are not unrelated; you can’t have open borders AND a welfare state, especially when there’s a third world contry on your border.
Why not?
Ugh, the assumption is that people in third world countries have no work ethic. And so will simply arrive and live off the welfare system. No evidence for that, of course. But projection is a very powerful psychological feature….
Ugh, the assumption is that people in third world countries have no work ethic. And so will simply arrive and live off the welfare system. No evidence for that, of course. But projection is a very powerful psychological feature….
The assumption is that SOME people in third world countries have no work ethic, just like everywhere else. And that, if you hand out free stuff, you’ll attract them.
I take it you believe otherwise? Setting up perverse incentives, and then being shocked when people respond to them is a liberal thing, I guess…
The assumption is that SOME people in third world countries have no work ethic, just like everywhere else. And that, if you hand out free stuff, you’ll attract them.
I take it you believe otherwise? Setting up perverse incentives, and then being shocked when people respond to them is a liberal thing, I guess…
Anyway, I’m sure there are investment opportunities for a man who wants to build an all-included resort next to a slum, and omit the fence.. Go for it!
Anyway, I’m sure there are investment opportunities for a man who wants to build an all-included resort next to a slum, and omit the fence.. Go for it!
If you’re really that lazy, you’re going to have a hard time getting here in the first place. You don’t exactly stroll casually across the border, stopping at the lemonade stand along the way.
That aside, ask Marco Rubio.
If you’re really that lazy, you’re going to have a hard time getting here in the first place. You don’t exactly stroll casually across the border, stopping at the lemonade stand along the way.
That aside, ask Marco Rubio.
I’m waiting for the patent on “use of the color blue in a computer user interface”.
Why not prompts in English (or any known language, for that matter)?
I’m waiting for the patent on “use of the color blue in a computer user interface”.
Why not prompts in English (or any known language, for that matter)?
Brett, there are far more people (although still not a huge percentage) who are looking to loaf at others’ expense in countries where there is a welfare system for them to use. Which, amazingly enough, isn’t most third world countries. The people there want to work — they aren’t interested in a handout, just an opportunity to work their way up.
And, FYI, not seeing people in a cynical fashion is also a conservative thing. At least for this conservative. But perhaps always seeing the worst in people is a libertarian thing….
(touche)
Brett, there are far more people (although still not a huge percentage) who are looking to loaf at others’ expense in countries where there is a welfare system for them to use. Which, amazingly enough, isn’t most third world countries. The people there want to work — they aren’t interested in a handout, just an opportunity to work their way up.
And, FYI, not seeing people in a cynical fashion is also a conservative thing. At least for this conservative. But perhaps always seeing the worst in people is a libertarian thing….
(touche)
The last thing Australians want to see is an American of any sort trying to gain citizenship.
Canadians and Americans — which way does the flow … flow?
Word has it that Mitt Romney sends his money abroad to gallivant and loaf like a trust-fund baby or a debutante.
The last thing Australians want to see is an American of any sort trying to gain citizenship.
Canadians and Americans — which way does the flow … flow?
Word has it that Mitt Romney sends his money abroad to gallivant and loaf like a trust-fund baby or a debutante.
And, FYI, not seeing people in a cynical fashion is also a conservative thing.
Tell that to any Bible thumper and he will start a rant on how Man (and Woman in particular) is wicked through and through. If he is really conservative he will also have his doubts, whether baptism works on everyone (since some may be irredeemably wicked by heritage).
And, FYI, not seeing people in a cynical fashion is also a conservative thing.
Tell that to any Bible thumper and he will start a rant on how Man (and Woman in particular) is wicked through and through. If he is really conservative he will also have his doubts, whether baptism works on everyone (since some may be irredeemably wicked by heritage).
The assumption is that SOME people in third world countries have no work ethic, just like everywhere else.
Spoken by a guy who posts on a blog all day long on any given workday.
And hey, I’m here too, right? But I’m not pointing any fingers about other folks’ work ethics.
Here’s the latest joke going around:
How many Mexicans does it take to build… oh, wait, they’re done!
The assumption is that SOME people in third world countries have no work ethic, just like everywhere else.
Spoken by a guy who posts on a blog all day long on any given workday.
And hey, I’m here too, right? But I’m not pointing any fingers about other folks’ work ethics.
Here’s the latest joke going around:
How many Mexicans does it take to build… oh, wait, they’re done!
I tend to see those folks as reactionary, rather than conservative. A reactionary being someone who thinks the current world is terrible, and we should go back to the way that (he thinks) it was. A conservative simply is reluctant to make changes unless someone demonstrates that the change is really necessary and desirable.
I don’t know how things are in Europe. But in the US a substantial portion of those who call themselves “conservative” are actually reactionaries. Not all, by any means, but an awful lot.
I tend to see those folks as reactionary, rather than conservative. A reactionary being someone who thinks the current world is terrible, and we should go back to the way that (he thinks) it was. A conservative simply is reluctant to make changes unless someone demonstrates that the change is really necessary and desirable.
I don’t know how things are in Europe. But in the US a substantial portion of those who call themselves “conservative” are actually reactionaries. Not all, by any means, but an awful lot.
They have siestas in Mexico, don’t they?
And yet I choose to stay in this country and take mine, despite it’s being frowned upon.
I’d wade across the Rio Grande to seek the free siesta ride down there, but I’m too lazy.
In fact, I was tempted to tell the Hispanic folks who clean my building to keep the vacuum noise down in the hallway outside my door, but I knew they would ignore me and just keep busy-beavering away like the fat, black welfare queens of Reagan’s imagination (well, there was one, I think, but she was outnumbered by the skinny white welfare kings and queens south of the Mason Dixon) all those years ago.
True Americans need their beauty sleep.
They have siestas in Mexico, don’t they?
And yet I choose to stay in this country and take mine, despite it’s being frowned upon.
I’d wade across the Rio Grande to seek the free siesta ride down there, but I’m too lazy.
In fact, I was tempted to tell the Hispanic folks who clean my building to keep the vacuum noise down in the hallway outside my door, but I knew they would ignore me and just keep busy-beavering away like the fat, black welfare queens of Reagan’s imagination (well, there was one, I think, but she was outnumbered by the skinny white welfare kings and queens south of the Mason Dixon) all those years ago.
True Americans need their beauty sleep.
wj:
But perhaps always seeing the worst in people is a libertarian thing….
Eh, it depends. Charles (I think) and I had an exchange about libertarians and optimism upthread. I’d extend that to people.
I generally believe people are good and responsible, and libertarians I know do as well.
wj:
But perhaps always seeing the worst in people is a libertarian thing….
Eh, it depends. Charles (I think) and I had an exchange about libertarians and optimism upthread. I’d extend that to people.
I generally believe people are good and responsible, and libertarians I know do as well.
I generally believe people are good and responsible, and libertarians I know do as well.
They just think markets are even better. ;^)
I generally believe people are good and responsible, and libertarians I know do as well.
They just think markets are even better. ;^)
thompson, I was merely being snarky about Brett’s tendency to assume that anyone who disagrees with him is a empty-brained liberal. That someone might be a conservative, and even mildly (though obviously not a purist!) libertarian, and still disagree with him seems to be outside his world-view. And it bugs me.
thompson, I was merely being snarky about Brett’s tendency to assume that anyone who disagrees with him is a empty-brained liberal. That someone might be a conservative, and even mildly (though obviously not a purist!) libertarian, and still disagree with him seems to be outside his world-view. And it bugs me.
Hey, open thread:
Do it for the planet.
Brothers, do your duty!
I know I’m doing my part, even if not by choice. 🙂
Hey, open thread:
Do it for the planet.
Brothers, do your duty!
I know I’m doing my part, even if not by choice. 🙂
Watch out, Countme-in; Mexican prnalties for illegal immigration are remarkably harsh.
Watch out, Countme-in; Mexican prnalties for illegal immigration are remarkably harsh.
Over the last ten or twelve years I have had quite an education in the basic biases of quite a few cultures.
I worked with a Spanish company, the general agreement inside of which was unequivocal in his disdain for all peoples not Spanish. Oddly, Mexicans were rated pretty low, Indians lower, Americans clearly inferior.
The Austrian firm I worked with was violently anti German leaning, anti French, ambiguous on both Spanish and Americans.
The Canadians were very nationalistic, but often expressed their wish that their management workforce was more like a US workforce. Then spent much time talking down Americans in general.
The Indians I worked closely with simply thought Americans were stupid and lazy.
It is interesting to me that many people get so insulted that someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, without insurance and living in a underground economy. Those are facts. They know that a poor person here is much better off than a poor person in Mexico, so there is a massive incentive to get here. Even more if their kids will be born here.
Not once in that paragraph did I say they were unwilling to work. Or work hard. Unfortunately many of them are not able to work immediately or consistently when they arrive. Language, training, culture all work to leave them struggling to be day laborers or migrant workers, sometimes competing with the legal migrant workers.
An open border would no doubt restoke the illegal influx, which has been dwindling in recent years, taking away the risks while leaving the positives in place. Counting on the welfare state isn’t why they come, it is why they feel they can come and survive until they can make their way.
Over the last ten or twelve years I have had quite an education in the basic biases of quite a few cultures.
I worked with a Spanish company, the general agreement inside of which was unequivocal in his disdain for all peoples not Spanish. Oddly, Mexicans were rated pretty low, Indians lower, Americans clearly inferior.
The Austrian firm I worked with was violently anti German leaning, anti French, ambiguous on both Spanish and Americans.
The Canadians were very nationalistic, but often expressed their wish that their management workforce was more like a US workforce. Then spent much time talking down Americans in general.
The Indians I worked closely with simply thought Americans were stupid and lazy.
It is interesting to me that many people get so insulted that someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, without insurance and living in a underground economy. Those are facts. They know that a poor person here is much better off than a poor person in Mexico, so there is a massive incentive to get here. Even more if their kids will be born here.
Not once in that paragraph did I say they were unwilling to work. Or work hard. Unfortunately many of them are not able to work immediately or consistently when they arrive. Language, training, culture all work to leave them struggling to be day laborers or migrant workers, sometimes competing with the legal migrant workers.
An open border would no doubt restoke the illegal influx, which has been dwindling in recent years, taking away the risks while leaving the positives in place. Counting on the welfare state isn’t why they come, it is why they feel they can come and survive until they can make their way.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-retirement-plan-invested-emergency-contraception-and-abortion-drug-makers
morals. it’s all about morals. and Freedom™
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-retirement-plan-invested-emergency-contraception-and-abortion-drug-makers
morals. it’s all about morals. and Freedom™
The Austrian firm I worked with was violently anti German leaning
I can assure you the feeling is mutual. These guys get us into wars and then claim to be the first victims of our aggression. And they are about as willing to concede past wrongdoing as the Japanese. Plus their accent is dreadful. I’d rather be surrounded by Saxons (even from Dresden) than Austrians (esp. from Vienna).
Btw, Mozart was neither German nor Austrian. Salzburg was independent at the time, so at least that notorious debate is futile.
The Austrian firm I worked with was violently anti German leaning
I can assure you the feeling is mutual. These guys get us into wars and then claim to be the first victims of our aggression. And they are about as willing to concede past wrongdoing as the Japanese. Plus their accent is dreadful. I’d rather be surrounded by Saxons (even from Dresden) than Austrians (esp. from Vienna).
Btw, Mozart was neither German nor Austrian. Salzburg was independent at the time, so at least that notorious debate is futile.
cleek, the Vatican was for many years the majority owner of an Italian company producing oral contraceptives. Why be more catholic than Paul VI.? 😉
cleek, the Vatican was for many years the majority owner of an Italian company producing oral contraceptives. Why be more catholic than Paul VI.? 😉
i hear Canadians are sick of the Swiss…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2XTuc6i1Uo
i hear Canadians are sick of the Swiss…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2XTuc6i1Uo
Well, the Swiss hate each other. What do you expect throwing German, French and Italian ‘speaking’ guys together into a state bordering Austria? If it was not for that neighbour the whole ‘Eidgenossenschaft’ would have ex- or imploded long ago.
Well, the Swiss hate each other. What do you expect throwing German, French and Italian ‘speaking’ guys together into a state bordering Austria? If it was not for that neighbour the whole ‘Eidgenossenschaft’ would have ex- or imploded long ago.
It is interesting to me that many people get so insulted that someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, without insurance and living in a underground economy.
My bold.
From here:
Is there another food assistance program you’re referring to?
Not saying there aren’t families that include both legal and illegal immigrants, or citizens and illegal immigrants (for instance if the kids are born here).
But SNAP, which is the federal food aid program, is not available to undocumented immigrants.
It is interesting to me that many people get so insulted that someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, without insurance and living in a underground economy.
My bold.
From here:
Is there another food assistance program you’re referring to?
Not saying there aren’t families that include both legal and illegal immigrants, or citizens and illegal immigrants (for instance if the kids are born here).
But SNAP, which is the federal food aid program, is not available to undocumented immigrants.
I’ve never met an Irishman I couldn’t like, or at least enjoy disliking.
Drinking, declaiming poetry at the top their brogues, and fighting at the drop of a hat.
What’s not to like?
Except for O’Reilly. He should be deported. And Hannity.
The Chinese think we smell bad.
I just started watching a documentary about cannibalism with British adventurer and TV personality Piers Gibbon tramping about in Western New Guinea trying to get to the bottom of things.
Every one he comes across thus far is very nice and forthcoming about the practice, which is rarely practiced any longer as far as he can tell …. yet …. but every seven minutes or so he over voices conspiratorially something along the lines that “What I really want to know is, however, despite what my friends here say, is cannibalism still being practiced as a way of life somewhere in these here hills?”
I have a feeling he’s going to find out and somewhere near the end of the documentary, there will be a shot of him calmly narrating his demise while standing up to his shoulders in a large cauldron of boiling human broth while being made to slice carrots and turnips into his personal soup.
The program will end with his cameraman asking a village chieftain what his countryman think of the English coming into their country, and the latter will grin and report: “Very good people. We welcome them. Very tasty!
Then the chieftain will pinch the fleshy part of the English cameraman’s arm and poke his abdomen and point out that there is a celebratory banquet coming up and would he care to stay and be the guest of honor and perhaps the entree as well, and the cameraman will sheepishly and Woody Allenishly back away and explain, “Gee, thanks, fellas, but my .. ah .. periodontist is expecting me for an appointment tomorrow to, ah, go over some things. She, ah, gets a little overwrought if I miss an appointment and charges extra, and will hurt me if given the chance. She’s cute, you know, cute mouth, two beautiful eyes, one on either side of her nose, and I hate to disappoint her. So I’ll just be, um, running along. Keep in touch.
So, it could be said that New Guinea birthers don’t mind some immigration, unlike our own.
I’ve never met an Irishman I couldn’t like, or at least enjoy disliking.
Drinking, declaiming poetry at the top their brogues, and fighting at the drop of a hat.
What’s not to like?
Except for O’Reilly. He should be deported. And Hannity.
The Chinese think we smell bad.
I just started watching a documentary about cannibalism with British adventurer and TV personality Piers Gibbon tramping about in Western New Guinea trying to get to the bottom of things.
Every one he comes across thus far is very nice and forthcoming about the practice, which is rarely practiced any longer as far as he can tell …. yet …. but every seven minutes or so he over voices conspiratorially something along the lines that “What I really want to know is, however, despite what my friends here say, is cannibalism still being practiced as a way of life somewhere in these here hills?”
I have a feeling he’s going to find out and somewhere near the end of the documentary, there will be a shot of him calmly narrating his demise while standing up to his shoulders in a large cauldron of boiling human broth while being made to slice carrots and turnips into his personal soup.
The program will end with his cameraman asking a village chieftain what his countryman think of the English coming into their country, and the latter will grin and report: “Very good people. We welcome them. Very tasty!
Then the chieftain will pinch the fleshy part of the English cameraman’s arm and poke his abdomen and point out that there is a celebratory banquet coming up and would he care to stay and be the guest of honor and perhaps the entree as well, and the cameraman will sheepishly and Woody Allenishly back away and explain, “Gee, thanks, fellas, but my .. ah .. periodontist is expecting me for an appointment tomorrow to, ah, go over some things. She, ah, gets a little overwrought if I miss an appointment and charges extra, and will hurt me if given the chance. She’s cute, you know, cute mouth, two beautiful eyes, one on either side of her nose, and I hate to disappoint her. So I’ll just be, um, running along. Keep in touch.
So, it could be said that New Guinea birthers don’t mind some immigration, unlike our own.
wj:
I was merely being snarky about Brett’s tendency to assume that anyone who disagrees with him is a empty-brained liberal.
Oh, I know it was snark (and was not bothered by such), but it’s a common enough perception that I thought I would toss in objection before someone else piled on.
And it bugs me.
That’s fair.
Russell:
I’m doing my part as well. Progressively. Not quite there yet, but more so every day.
wj:
I was merely being snarky about Brett’s tendency to assume that anyone who disagrees with him is a empty-brained liberal.
Oh, I know it was snark (and was not bothered by such), but it’s a common enough perception that I thought I would toss in objection before someone else piled on.
And it bugs me.
That’s fair.
Russell:
I’m doing my part as well. Progressively. Not quite there yet, but more so every day.
Actually what someone “noted”, or insinuated, was that the Mexicans who come here are somewhat self-selected by their own tendency to lack a work ethic.
And this:
“Counting on the welfare state isn’t why they come, it is why they feel they can come and survive until they can make their way.”
That’s why we natives stay here, too. Otherwise we’d find someplace better.
The Ryan budget may change all that. Mark down another Irishman that should be deported.
The U.S. is exceptional.
Actually what someone “noted”, or insinuated, was that the Mexicans who come here are somewhat self-selected by their own tendency to lack a work ethic.
And this:
“Counting on the welfare state isn’t why they come, it is why they feel they can come and survive until they can make their way.”
That’s why we natives stay here, too. Otherwise we’d find someplace better.
The Ryan budget may change all that. Mark down another Irishman that should be deported.
The U.S. is exceptional.
“Otherwise we’d find someplace better.”
based on the migration info, you’re right there really isn’t anyplace better.
“Otherwise we’d find someplace better.”
based on the migration info, you’re right there really isn’t anyplace better.
based on the migration info, you’re right there really isn’t anyplace better.
There are a number of countries with negligible or no outflow – mostly in OECD Europe. There’s some flow north to south within Europe, which is maybe aka “retirement to someplace warm”. Also some flow from the US to Europe and Brazil, which is maybe aka “in search of the sweet life”.
Russian, Ukraine, and the Stans have some kind of mutually inbred thing going on.
I thought this bit was interesting:
If so, I wonder if we can expect to see India and China become migration destinations in a generation or so?
based on the migration info, you’re right there really isn’t anyplace better.
There are a number of countries with negligible or no outflow – mostly in OECD Europe. There’s some flow north to south within Europe, which is maybe aka “retirement to someplace warm”. Also some flow from the US to Europe and Brazil, which is maybe aka “in search of the sweet life”.
Russian, Ukraine, and the Stans have some kind of mutually inbred thing going on.
I thought this bit was interesting:
If so, I wonder if we can expect to see India and China become migration destinations in a generation or so?
All the ironworkers I know are planning to retire to Costa Rica. 🙂
Must be that fresh demilitarized air.
All the ironworkers I know are planning to retire to Costa Rica. 🙂
Must be that fresh demilitarized air.
“Counting on the welfare state isn’t why they come, it is why they feel they can come and survive until they can make their way.”
Yes. People uproot themselves from their nation, their loved ones, their culture, and their language at the drop of a hat, on a whim, a dare. Being driven to make a desperate choice never enters into it at all.
Naturally the consult the Fodor’s Guide To Welfare State Benefits that they are not entitled to partake of by law, before setting out. Just to know what they’ll not get.
It is a very slim volume, but widely available in the oral tradition edition distributed throughout the developing world.
Remember the signs that said “No Irish Need Apply”? Those were the days.
The racist condescension is a feature-not a bug.
“Counting on the welfare state isn’t why they come, it is why they feel they can come and survive until they can make their way.”
Yes. People uproot themselves from their nation, their loved ones, their culture, and their language at the drop of a hat, on a whim, a dare. Being driven to make a desperate choice never enters into it at all.
Naturally the consult the Fodor’s Guide To Welfare State Benefits that they are not entitled to partake of by law, before setting out. Just to know what they’ll not get.
It is a very slim volume, but widely available in the oral tradition edition distributed throughout the developing world.
Remember the signs that said “No Irish Need Apply”? Those were the days.
The racist condescension is a feature-not a bug.
“Actually what someone “noted”, or insinuated, was that the Mexicans who come here are somewhat self-selected by their own tendency to lack a work ethic.”
Who was that? I do think they”re self-sellected for their willingness to violate our laws. That’s bad enough in lazy people, is it better in the industrious?
“Actually what someone “noted”, or insinuated, was that the Mexicans who come here are somewhat self-selected by their own tendency to lack a work ethic.”
Who was that? I do think they”re self-sellected for their willingness to violate our laws. That’s bad enough in lazy people, is it better in the industrious?
Yes bobby, they all stand at the border, yearning to cross the fence, no idea what’s on the other side, leaving just to have some place to go. Each has never talked to the 25 million who have come before, and, then, the crack of the whip and they are forced across the border.
The truth is, most come with a destination, an idea from people here of how to get started. Most often with a home to live in initially if they make it across. Your contempt for their ability to actually plan this, pay someone to get them across, have some idea if what they are getting into is the racism in this thread.
I can take you to ten places in Dallas where someone will help you with papers. Heck, if you have a kid you get WIC in Mass no matter. Even the Brazilian illegals in Boston knew that stuff. They came from a long way, not just across the border.
Yes bobby, they all stand at the border, yearning to cross the fence, no idea what’s on the other side, leaving just to have some place to go. Each has never talked to the 25 million who have come before, and, then, the crack of the whip and they are forced across the border.
The truth is, most come with a destination, an idea from people here of how to get started. Most often with a home to live in initially if they make it across. Your contempt for their ability to actually plan this, pay someone to get them across, have some idea if what they are getting into is the racism in this thread.
I can take you to ten places in Dallas where someone will help you with papers. Heck, if you have a kid you get WIC in Mass no matter. Even the Brazilian illegals in Boston knew that stuff. They came from a long way, not just across the border.
Anybody got any actual numbers on the amount of federal aid that goes to illegals?
Or are we all just sharing our anecdota?
Anybody got any actual numbers on the amount of federal aid that goes to illegals?
Or are we all just sharing our anecdota?
I really only have anecdata russell. I don’t claim any more knowledge than that from people I have known. I also probably would question any statistics. Lots of these immigrants have lived here for years on the dole, lots have built great lives, most have spent all that time trying to avoid being counted as an illegal. Mostly successfully.
I really only have anecdata russell. I don’t claim any more knowledge than that from people I have known. I also probably would question any statistics. Lots of these immigrants have lived here for years on the dole, lots have built great lives, most have spent all that time trying to avoid being counted as an illegal. Mostly successfully.
It is interesting to me that many people get so insulted that someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, without insurance and living in a underground economy. Those are facts. They know that a poor person here is much better off than a poor person in Mexico, so there is a massive incentive to get here. Even more if their kids will be born here.
Please, don’t think this is an appeal for links for those ‘facts’, though I do think a little unpacking is needed.
I note that the word ‘food assistance’ is a nice phrase that can be conveniently narrowed when called on. I’d also note that SNAP, which I believe is the only form of government ‘food assistance’ is an incredibly tiny slice of the federal budget and at any rate
Noncitizens make up a very small portion of SNAP participants – only 4% of participants are noncitizens (documented immigrants or refugees).link
Of course, if you are complaining that the Catholic church down the street opens its food bank to undocumented aliens, 1)it’s none of your damn business and 2)are you serious?
I’m relatively sure, when you drop that paragraph in the conversation, that there is very little I can say to change that toxic mix of anchor babies and Mexicans living la vida loca you’ve got in your head, but you want a country where you have people coming in and having kids or you aren’t going to have a tax base. This probably won’t happen because big business needs illegal immigration to keep their everyday low low prices, but the idea that Mexicans are coming here just so they can get free food is racist at its core and it would really serve you well to examine in a little more closely.
It is interesting to me that many people get so insulted that someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, without insurance and living in a underground economy. Those are facts. They know that a poor person here is much better off than a poor person in Mexico, so there is a massive incentive to get here. Even more if their kids will be born here.
Please, don’t think this is an appeal for links for those ‘facts’, though I do think a little unpacking is needed.
I note that the word ‘food assistance’ is a nice phrase that can be conveniently narrowed when called on. I’d also note that SNAP, which I believe is the only form of government ‘food assistance’ is an incredibly tiny slice of the federal budget and at any rate
Noncitizens make up a very small portion of SNAP participants – only 4% of participants are noncitizens (documented immigrants or refugees).link
Of course, if you are complaining that the Catholic church down the street opens its food bank to undocumented aliens, 1)it’s none of your damn business and 2)are you serious?
I’m relatively sure, when you drop that paragraph in the conversation, that there is very little I can say to change that toxic mix of anchor babies and Mexicans living la vida loca you’ve got in your head, but you want a country where you have people coming in and having kids or you aren’t going to have a tax base. This probably won’t happen because big business needs illegal immigration to keep their everyday low low prices, but the idea that Mexicans are coming here just so they can get free food is racist at its core and it would really serve you well to examine in a little more closely.
lj,
its amazing what you assume about me and what I want, every time you engage with me. Perhaps your prejudices that should be evaluated.
lj,
its amazing what you assume about me and what I want, every time you engage with me. Perhaps your prejudices that should be evaluated.
Hartmut, just reading this thread from the beginning:
Were you born in 1973? If so, that gives me so much to contemplate. If not, when were you born?
Hartmut, just reading this thread from the beginning:
Were you born in 1973? If so, that gives me so much to contemplate. If not, when were you born?
I do think they”re self-sellected for their willingness to violate our laws.
Certainly they are self-selected by their willingness to violate (or at least ignore) our immigration laws. But except for the minority who are engaged in the drug trade, is there any evidence that, once they are here, these illegal immigrants are more inclined to violate our laws than those of us who were born here?
I do think they”re self-sellected for their willingness to violate our laws.
Certainly they are self-selected by their willingness to violate (or at least ignore) our immigration laws. But except for the minority who are engaged in the drug trade, is there any evidence that, once they are here, these illegal immigrants are more inclined to violate our laws than those of us who were born here?
But SNAP, which is the federal food aid program, is not available to undocumented immigrants.
I haven’t done my homework as to federal aid.
I have, however, worked in a foodbank, where people came in for groceries, and had to fill out paperwork for a good long time in order to get a random couple of sacks of groceries. The groceries included very little fresh stuff, if any. Mostly some canned goods and dried beans, pasta or rice, and some donated goods which varied from week to week. There was sometimes bread and maybe meat from “hunters for the hungry” or something else.
I’m a good cook, and could have figured out ways to use that food, but a lot of the folks who came in, filled in the forms, and went through the process? I hope they were good cooks. They needed that food desperately. People who resent people who need food can kiss my &&s.
So, anyway, what russell said.
But SNAP, which is the federal food aid program, is not available to undocumented immigrants.
I haven’t done my homework as to federal aid.
I have, however, worked in a foodbank, where people came in for groceries, and had to fill out paperwork for a good long time in order to get a random couple of sacks of groceries. The groceries included very little fresh stuff, if any. Mostly some canned goods and dried beans, pasta or rice, and some donated goods which varied from week to week. There was sometimes bread and maybe meat from “hunters for the hungry” or something else.
I’m a good cook, and could have figured out ways to use that food, but a lot of the folks who came in, filled in the forms, and went through the process? I hope they were good cooks. They needed that food desperately. People who resent people who need food can kiss my &&s.
So, anyway, what russell said.
The assumption I made was that I wasn’t going to change your mind and your response suggests that I’m correct. If you’d like to explain how you come by your ‘facts’ that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, have at it, but it’s what you wrote.
The assumption I made was that I wasn’t going to change your mind and your response suggests that I’m correct. If you’d like to explain how you come by your ‘facts’ that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, have at it, but it’s what you wrote.
Lots of these immigrants have lived here for years on the dole
Please enlighten me. How does someone who is here illegally contrive to get on, and stay on, the dole?
If it’s that easy to navigate the system, why don’t more of us do it? Why can’t *I* do it?
Lots of these immigrants have lived here for years on the dole
Please enlighten me. How does someone who is here illegally contrive to get on, and stay on, the dole?
If it’s that easy to navigate the system, why don’t more of us do it? Why can’t *I* do it?
I lived in Dallas and worked side by side with them for all of my teen years, doing day labor. My Dad employed them both as day labor and permanent employees all his life. I spent more than one stint working there. See, I have very few complaints about legal or illegal immigrants. I think we need to get past kidding ourselves abut them being some monolithic group, all good, all bad, put upon, living la vita loca. They are as diverse as any other group.
But circumstances make those things I said facts. Because I was there.
I lived in Dallas and worked side by side with them for all of my teen years, doing day labor. My Dad employed them both as day labor and permanent employees all his life. I spent more than one stint working there. See, I have very few complaints about legal or illegal immigrants. I think we need to get past kidding ourselves abut them being some monolithic group, all good, all bad, put upon, living la vita loca. They are as diverse as any other group.
But circumstances make those things I said facts. Because I was there.
wj,
I’m pretty sure, based on my perception of how smart you are just from this blog, that you could, if properly motivated.
wj,
I’m pretty sure, based on my perception of how smart you are just from this blog, that you could, if properly motivated.
Perhaps I am just pessimistic on account of having just finished the annual wading thru trying to make sense of the tax forms. 🙁
Perhaps I am just pessimistic on account of having just finished the annual wading thru trying to make sense of the tax forms. 🙁
Yes bobby, they all stand at the border, yearning to cross the fence, no idea what’s on the other side…
My sarcasm was not directed at them. It was directed at you. Certainly they plan. Certainly they pay…sometimes with all they have, including their lives…just to cross a fence. Noting this somehow makes me the racist.
The asserted, but I note not backed up in the slightest, claim that some desperate Honduran peasant takes into consideration our welfare benefits before embarking on a dangerous and costly journey that could possibly result in death is frankly a lot of bullshit.
You need to go back to that bar in Ohio and toss back a couple of stiff ones.
Yes bobby, they all stand at the border, yearning to cross the fence, no idea what’s on the other side…
My sarcasm was not directed at them. It was directed at you. Certainly they plan. Certainly they pay…sometimes with all they have, including their lives…just to cross a fence. Noting this somehow makes me the racist.
The asserted, but I note not backed up in the slightest, claim that some desperate Honduran peasant takes into consideration our welfare benefits before embarking on a dangerous and costly journey that could possibly result in death is frankly a lot of bullshit.
You need to go back to that bar in Ohio and toss back a couple of stiff ones.
I lived in Dallas and worked side by side with them for all of my teen years, doing day labor. My Dad employed them both as day labor and permanent employees all his life. I spent more than one stint working there.
How does that experience translate into knowing that “many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance”. I’ve worked a number of jobs, some of them blue collar and I have a hard time imagining that those breaks were filled with discussions of filling out SNAP forms or which church had the best food bank.
I lived in Dallas and worked side by side with them for all of my teen years, doing day labor. My Dad employed them both as day labor and permanent employees all his life. I spent more than one stint working there.
How does that experience translate into knowing that “many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance”. I’ve worked a number of jobs, some of them blue collar and I have a hard time imagining that those breaks were filled with discussions of filling out SNAP forms or which church had the best food bank.
Never mind. I now remember why I quit commenting here.
The price for disagreeing here, even when ya’ll don’t have a clue, is to get called names. Racist? Not a bone in my body.
Blue collar is a long way from day labor getting picked up on the street corner to haul, or carry or dig eight hours for 10 bucks less a buck and a quarter for lunch. Lots of conversations, no. Lots of info, yes.
Never mind. I now remember why I quit commenting here.
The price for disagreeing here, even when ya’ll don’t have a clue, is to get called names. Racist? Not a bone in my body.
Blue collar is a long way from day labor getting picked up on the street corner to haul, or carry or dig eight hours for 10 bucks less a buck and a quarter for lunch. Lots of conversations, no. Lots of info, yes.
I really only have anecdata russell
Yeah, same here. The SNAP thing I just went and looked up, because it seemed kind of fishy to me, but mostly what I know about this stuff I know from my own limited experience.
I know that all of the people who clean the office building I work in are brown and speak with some kind of Latin accent. Could be Spanish, could be Portuguese.
I know that when I go to Home Depot, there’s a line of brown guys standing ready to take any kind of day labor that anyone wants to give them.
I know that in a couple of weeks my neighborhood is going to be invaded by descendants of the Aztecs, who will be doing spring cleanups on everyone’s yard.
I know that the folks who do housekeeping and work the cafeteria at the local hospital are largely brown folks whose first language is not English.
I know that everyone who works at the car wash is brown and speaks with some kind of Latin accent.
I know that a really large percent – half or more – of the grunt workers in most restaurant kitchens around here are brown non-native-English speakers.
I know that when the UFW started their “Take Our Jobs” campaign, the number of Anglos who signed up were measured in single digits.
I don’t know, but I’m sure, that there are some illegals who game the various benefit programs, and/or get benefits through their kids, who may well be citizens.
Most of those programs are not available to illegals, so it would take some doing for them to do it, but I’m sure it happens.
I also know that any illegal who gets a bogus SSN is not going to see any of the money they pay into SS. They are also paying taxes on everything they buy, they are contributing to property taxes when they pay rent, etc etc etc., so even if they are scamming something out of the various welfare programs, they are not a pure dead weight on those programs or the economy as a whole. Most of them are probably getting screwed, tax-wise.
I think you’re right that many illegals come here with a plan of some kind, that probably includes some pre-existing network of folks who are already here, whether that’s family or people from their home towns or whatever.
I think you’re probably also right that they know what is available here in terms of public assistance, and may have some understanding of what they might or might not be entitled to. Some may even have an understanding, or may acquire an understanding on arrival, of how to game the system to get stuff they properly are not entitled to.
But in general what I, personally, see are a lot of people who work their @sses off, at jobs that nobody else wants, for not a lot of money. There’s a very very wide range of things that would cost every one of us more than it does today if they weren’t here.
If we want to compare notes as far as “keeping it real”, I’ve worked building trades jobs as well, and I’ve lived in immigrant neighborhoods for periods of time measured in years, and I’ve worked restaurant kitchens.
I definitely see a mix of things, like you say no community is just one thing, but I’m not seeing a group of people who are coming here to “live off of the dole”. Not least because there just isn’t that much dole in the first place, for anybody, let alone illegals. But mostly because most of the time when I see a brown person with a Latin accent, they’re working, and usually at something that most Americans won’t do, at least not for what the immigrants are making.
What I think is that Mexicans and South Americans come here in large numbers, legally and otherwise, because they have a chance to make more money here than they can at home. And they’ll do whatever it takes to take advantage of that.
You’d be surprised, maybe, to find out who some of these folks are. The woman that cleans my house is Brazilian, she and her husband had a very successful business in Brazil. Here, all she can find is house cleaning, so that’s what she does.
The sexton (aka janitor) at my church is Colombian. In Colombia he was an economist, teaching at a college level, but his language skills aren’t good enough to do that here. So, he is a janitor, and he’s here because Colombia sucks and the directions his economic research was taking him were putting his family in danger. He’s a hard-working dude.
I can’t speak for the guys you worked with in TX, but I can speak for the people I know and see in my own life. They are hard-working people, they love their families, and in a sane world we’d make some visas available to them to come live here legally.
I really only have anecdata russell
Yeah, same here. The SNAP thing I just went and looked up, because it seemed kind of fishy to me, but mostly what I know about this stuff I know from my own limited experience.
I know that all of the people who clean the office building I work in are brown and speak with some kind of Latin accent. Could be Spanish, could be Portuguese.
I know that when I go to Home Depot, there’s a line of brown guys standing ready to take any kind of day labor that anyone wants to give them.
I know that in a couple of weeks my neighborhood is going to be invaded by descendants of the Aztecs, who will be doing spring cleanups on everyone’s yard.
I know that the folks who do housekeeping and work the cafeteria at the local hospital are largely brown folks whose first language is not English.
I know that everyone who works at the car wash is brown and speaks with some kind of Latin accent.
I know that a really large percent – half or more – of the grunt workers in most restaurant kitchens around here are brown non-native-English speakers.
I know that when the UFW started their “Take Our Jobs” campaign, the number of Anglos who signed up were measured in single digits.
I don’t know, but I’m sure, that there are some illegals who game the various benefit programs, and/or get benefits through their kids, who may well be citizens.
Most of those programs are not available to illegals, so it would take some doing for them to do it, but I’m sure it happens.
I also know that any illegal who gets a bogus SSN is not going to see any of the money they pay into SS. They are also paying taxes on everything they buy, they are contributing to property taxes when they pay rent, etc etc etc., so even if they are scamming something out of the various welfare programs, they are not a pure dead weight on those programs or the economy as a whole. Most of them are probably getting screwed, tax-wise.
I think you’re right that many illegals come here with a plan of some kind, that probably includes some pre-existing network of folks who are already here, whether that’s family or people from their home towns or whatever.
I think you’re probably also right that they know what is available here in terms of public assistance, and may have some understanding of what they might or might not be entitled to. Some may even have an understanding, or may acquire an understanding on arrival, of how to game the system to get stuff they properly are not entitled to.
But in general what I, personally, see are a lot of people who work their @sses off, at jobs that nobody else wants, for not a lot of money. There’s a very very wide range of things that would cost every one of us more than it does today if they weren’t here.
If we want to compare notes as far as “keeping it real”, I’ve worked building trades jobs as well, and I’ve lived in immigrant neighborhoods for periods of time measured in years, and I’ve worked restaurant kitchens.
I definitely see a mix of things, like you say no community is just one thing, but I’m not seeing a group of people who are coming here to “live off of the dole”. Not least because there just isn’t that much dole in the first place, for anybody, let alone illegals. But mostly because most of the time when I see a brown person with a Latin accent, they’re working, and usually at something that most Americans won’t do, at least not for what the immigrants are making.
What I think is that Mexicans and South Americans come here in large numbers, legally and otherwise, because they have a chance to make more money here than they can at home. And they’ll do whatever it takes to take advantage of that.
You’d be surprised, maybe, to find out who some of these folks are. The woman that cleans my house is Brazilian, she and her husband had a very successful business in Brazil. Here, all she can find is house cleaning, so that’s what she does.
The sexton (aka janitor) at my church is Colombian. In Colombia he was an economist, teaching at a college level, but his language skills aren’t good enough to do that here. So, he is a janitor, and he’s here because Colombia sucks and the directions his economic research was taking him were putting his family in danger. He’s a hard-working dude.
I can’t speak for the guys you worked with in TX, but I can speak for the people I know and see in my own life. They are hard-working people, they love their families, and in a sane world we’d make some visas available to them to come live here legally.
day labor getting picked up on the street corner to haul, or carry or dig eight hours for 10 bucks less a buck and a quarter for lunch.
With all due respect, how the hell is that “the dole”?
day labor getting picked up on the street corner to haul, or carry or dig eight hours for 10 bucks less a buck and a quarter for lunch.
With all due respect, how the hell is that “the dole”?
the idea that Mexicans are coming here just so they can get free food is racist at its core and it would really serve you well to examine in a little more closely.
Marty,
I’m sure that none of your bones are racist and could be transplanted into any other human body and with the correct immunosuppressents, be right at home. But your phrase
someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, without insurance and living in a underground economy.
seems racist to me (not you, your phrase) and you might want to think about why that is.
the idea that Mexicans are coming here just so they can get free food is racist at its core and it would really serve you well to examine in a little more closely.
Marty,
I’m sure that none of your bones are racist and could be transplanted into any other human body and with the correct immunosuppressents, be right at home. But your phrase
someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, without insurance and living in a underground economy.
seems racist to me (not you, your phrase) and you might want to think about why that is.
russell,
I have had many experiences similar to yours. Also have had a substantially different set. Texas is, and Arizona when I lived there for a short time, were different. In sheer numbers and diversity, the community is larger. I didn’t see brown people at work, I saw them next door, at the rec center, at school, at church. They mostly lived together in West Dallas, but they weren’t brown people we saw here or there. Not to put too fine a point, my brother learned Spanish just so he could communicate with his contractors. In AZ I was the minority. In that environment you know more about your neighbor.
I guess the answer is that in those places they weren’t them, they were us, or we were them.
russell,
I have had many experiences similar to yours. Also have had a substantially different set. Texas is, and Arizona when I lived there for a short time, were different. In sheer numbers and diversity, the community is larger. I didn’t see brown people at work, I saw them next door, at the rec center, at school, at church. They mostly lived together in West Dallas, but they weren’t brown people we saw here or there. Not to put too fine a point, my brother learned Spanish just so he could communicate with his contractors. In AZ I was the minority. In that environment you know more about your neighbor.
I guess the answer is that in those places they weren’t them, they were us, or we were them.
The price for disagreeing here, even when ya’ll don’t have a clue…
Yeah, you betcha’. We know nothing. You know everything. What f*cking hubris. Commenters here disagree all the time. Most of them don’t try to set the table beforehand. Most do a good deal of give and take. Sometimes it gets a little heated. Most don’t run and hide.
I, for one, will not miss your soi dissant fact free world weariness one little bit.
Take it Johnny…
You want to barge in here and claim that ‘gaming the system’ is a significant part of the illegal or otherwise immigration experience, well, you’d better bring some facts.
Otherwise, your going to get called.
Be seein’ ya.
The price for disagreeing here, even when ya’ll don’t have a clue…
Yeah, you betcha’. We know nothing. You know everything. What f*cking hubris. Commenters here disagree all the time. Most of them don’t try to set the table beforehand. Most do a good deal of give and take. Sometimes it gets a little heated. Most don’t run and hide.
I, for one, will not miss your soi dissant fact free world weariness one little bit.
Take it Johnny…
You want to barge in here and claim that ‘gaming the system’ is a significant part of the illegal or otherwise immigration experience, well, you’d better bring some facts.
Otherwise, your going to get called.
Be seein’ ya.
Bobby, I was talking to lj, you on the other hand are just an a$$. You jump into every thread to call someone a name or insult them. Not a scintilla of interest in discussion, hubris is a joke coming from you. There is a difference in heated and calling people racist or whatever handy insult you have that day.
Punk cones to mind.
lj,
I don’t think it is out of line to recognize what the reality is for the poorest immigrants. Despite many peoples outrage I grew up there. It really really happens. Regularly.
Bobby, I was talking to lj, you on the other hand are just an a$$. You jump into every thread to call someone a name or insult them. Not a scintilla of interest in discussion, hubris is a joke coming from you. There is a difference in heated and calling people racist or whatever handy insult you have that day.
Punk cones to mind.
lj,
I don’t think it is out of line to recognize what the reality is for the poorest immigrants. Despite many peoples outrage I grew up there. It really really happens. Regularly.
Texas is, and Arizona when I lived there for a short time, were different.
I’m sure that’s so. I have family in AZ, their view on things is shaped by events like having their truck stolen and abandoned in MX.
They are significantly less open-armed to our neighbors to the south than I am.
In sheer numbers and diversity, the community is larger. I didn’t see brown people at work, I saw them next door, at the rec center, at school, at church.
This was more my experience living in a Dominican neighborhood in Salem MA for about five years. More accurately, a French Canadian and Irish immigrant community turning into a Dominican immigrant community.
I was probably not as closely integrated into that community as perhaps you were in TX, but a lot of my neighbors – most of my neighbors – were Dominican.
I have a very good friend who is a public defender at the court in Lynn MA, and I understand that all immigrants, legal or otherwise, are not noble hard-working long-suffering saints. Many of them are knuckleheads.
What I am contesting is that welfare benefits ripe for the picking are what brings them here, in their hundreds of thousands and millions.
From what I can tell, most of them just want to work.
Texas is, and Arizona when I lived there for a short time, were different.
I’m sure that’s so. I have family in AZ, their view on things is shaped by events like having their truck stolen and abandoned in MX.
They are significantly less open-armed to our neighbors to the south than I am.
In sheer numbers and diversity, the community is larger. I didn’t see brown people at work, I saw them next door, at the rec center, at school, at church.
This was more my experience living in a Dominican neighborhood in Salem MA for about five years. More accurately, a French Canadian and Irish immigrant community turning into a Dominican immigrant community.
I was probably not as closely integrated into that community as perhaps you were in TX, but a lot of my neighbors – most of my neighbors – were Dominican.
I have a very good friend who is a public defender at the court in Lynn MA, and I understand that all immigrants, legal or otherwise, are not noble hard-working long-suffering saints. Many of them are knuckleheads.
What I am contesting is that welfare benefits ripe for the picking are what brings them here, in their hundreds of thousands and millions.
From what I can tell, most of them just want to work.
I understand russell, and since I lived in some pretty poor neighborhoods, knowing your way around public assistance was an uncommon skill, just for survival.
I understand russell, and since I lived in some pretty poor neighborhoods, knowing your way around public assistance was an uncommon skill, just for survival.
“wasn’t” an uncommon skill
“wasn’t” an uncommon skill
What I am contesting is that welfare benefits ripe for the picking are what brings them here, in their hundreds of thousands and millions.
Agree. For doing so, I get called a punk. Sometimes you just can’t win, “uncommon skills” notwithstanding.
What I am contesting is that welfare benefits ripe for the picking are what brings them here, in their hundreds of thousands and millions.
Agree. For doing so, I get called a punk. Sometimes you just can’t win, “uncommon skills” notwithstanding.
No bobby it was for this
“The racist condescension is a feature-not a bug”
different thing than anything Russell said
No bobby it was for this
“The racist condescension is a feature-not a bug”
different thing than anything Russell said
Mary,
You asserted: “It is interesting to me that many people get so insulted that someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance..”
I, for one, am only insulted by the claim that they do so in any significant numbers. You present no evidence for this claim other than your vast experience. You tie it specifically to “Mexicans”. Hence the charge. Why not Vietnamese or the Chinese who survive the possible suffocation in a cargo container to come to this country? I lived in farmworker country in the Pacific NW and heard incessant claims about “the Mexicans” and their lazy ways…why the government even provides them with free cellphones! Outrage!
And I get a little heated up when the subject arises.
Further, it is a very short step from this to asserting that many poor black Americans are also “savy” in the ways of scamming the welfare state (cf Ronald Reagan and welfare queens), but I guess poor whites in Appalachia just don’t get it, huh? I would think they would. After all, poverty is the common denominator here, not race.
Assertion: “..it is why they feel they can come and survive until they can make their way.”
Again, there is no evidence presented for this assertion other than your claimed vast experience. Now many “Mexicans” who come here illegally undoubtedly have family or other support networks on this side of the border (that there are a lot of them here already helps). Many also do not. But it is a long way from that to the claim that our social welfare net is any kind of significant factor when weighing the choice to come here and be, frankly, something of a “non-person” and work their asses off at shit jobs for next to nothing pay. Despite what else you wrote, this penultimate statement struck me as misplaced and wrong on the facts.
Further, tying these claims specifically to “Mexicans” struck me as way out of place.
However, given my re-reading (twice) of what you wrote I apologize for the particular line that upset you. It was, in retrospect, careless and out of line.
Mary,
You asserted: “It is interesting to me that many people get so insulted that someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance..”
I, for one, am only insulted by the claim that they do so in any significant numbers. You present no evidence for this claim other than your vast experience. You tie it specifically to “Mexicans”. Hence the charge. Why not Vietnamese or the Chinese who survive the possible suffocation in a cargo container to come to this country? I lived in farmworker country in the Pacific NW and heard incessant claims about “the Mexicans” and their lazy ways…why the government even provides them with free cellphones! Outrage!
And I get a little heated up when the subject arises.
Further, it is a very short step from this to asserting that many poor black Americans are also “savy” in the ways of scamming the welfare state (cf Ronald Reagan and welfare queens), but I guess poor whites in Appalachia just don’t get it, huh? I would think they would. After all, poverty is the common denominator here, not race.
Assertion: “..it is why they feel they can come and survive until they can make their way.”
Again, there is no evidence presented for this assertion other than your claimed vast experience. Now many “Mexicans” who come here illegally undoubtedly have family or other support networks on this side of the border (that there are a lot of them here already helps). Many also do not. But it is a long way from that to the claim that our social welfare net is any kind of significant factor when weighing the choice to come here and be, frankly, something of a “non-person” and work their asses off at shit jobs for next to nothing pay. Despite what else you wrote, this penultimate statement struck me as misplaced and wrong on the facts.
Further, tying these claims specifically to “Mexicans” struck me as way out of place.
However, given my re-reading (twice) of what you wrote I apologize for the particular line that upset you. It was, in retrospect, careless and out of line.
Hartmut, just reading this thread from the beginning:
Were you born in 1973? If so, that gives me so much to contemplate. If not, when were you born?
1973, Berlin (West). Still living there.
Hartmut, just reading this thread from the beginning:
Were you born in 1973? If so, that gives me so much to contemplate. If not, when were you born?
1973, Berlin (West). Still living there.
bobby, Thanks. It is none of those other people, btw, because I didn’t grow up with them. I didn’t have the first hand knowledge to assert anything about them. As far as the significance of our social safety net, it was known to many of those people I knew before they came. I noted in my second comment on the subject that I had no more data than my own experience.
bobby, Thanks. It is none of those other people, btw, because I didn’t grow up with them. I didn’t have the first hand knowledge to assert anything about them. As far as the significance of our social safety net, it was known to many of those people I knew before they came. I noted in my second comment on the subject that I had no more data than my own experience.
Without seeking to discount anyone’s personal experience (including my own), I think it’s uncontroversial that entire industries in the US depend on cheap labor, provided by immigrants, many of them illegal.
And in fact, the illegal status of many of the immigrants involved is a large factor in keeping the labor cheap.
So, housekeeping and cleaning services of all sorts, restaurants, meat packing, agriculture, some building trades.
Cheap labor provided by undocumented immigrants is a significant factor in the US economy. Some tremendous number of the people who come here are *working*, and are creating enormous value through that work.
No doubt some of them find a way to benefit from “safety net” programs, but in general they are not eligible for those programs. Anecdotally, folks may believe that illegal immigrants represent some huge percentage of the population on various forms of public assistance, but the numbers don’t back that up.
And yes, statistics can be inaccurate, but so can anecdota. Sometimes our personal impressions of a situation don’t tell the complete story.
Without seeking to discount anyone’s personal experience (including my own), I think it’s uncontroversial that entire industries in the US depend on cheap labor, provided by immigrants, many of them illegal.
And in fact, the illegal status of many of the immigrants involved is a large factor in keeping the labor cheap.
So, housekeeping and cleaning services of all sorts, restaurants, meat packing, agriculture, some building trades.
Cheap labor provided by undocumented immigrants is a significant factor in the US economy. Some tremendous number of the people who come here are *working*, and are creating enormous value through that work.
No doubt some of them find a way to benefit from “safety net” programs, but in general they are not eligible for those programs. Anecdotally, folks may believe that illegal immigrants represent some huge percentage of the population on various forms of public assistance, but the numbers don’t back that up.
And yes, statistics can be inaccurate, but so can anecdota. Sometimes our personal impressions of a situation don’t tell the complete story.
Just to be clear, I don’t believe illegal immigrants make up a huge portion of the 47 million people on food assistance.
Just to be clear, I don’t believe illegal immigrants make up a huge portion of the 47 million people on food assistance.
“But except for the minority who are engaged in the drug trade, is there any evidence that, once they are here, these illegal immigrants are more inclined to violate our laws than those of us who were born here?”
You mean, aside from identity theft, and illegally being employed? And driving without a license or insurance? And maybe the occasional theft or murder?
I don’t think people are so neatly compartmentalized as you apparently believe. Disdain for following this set of rules isn’t completely uncorrelated with disdain for following that set of rules.
Unfortunately for you, crime statistics agree with me. Illegal immigrants are over-represented in our prisons, even with ‘catch and release’ programs that divert them from the criminal justice system when caught. (And don’t release them back into Mexico, either!)
I would add to the cost the distortions to our system needed to accommodate a large population of illegal immigrants. For instance, the IRS very carefully does NOT report obvious cases of identity theft; If my SS number gets used for two jobs, my engineering job in SC, and a gardening job in DC, do red flags go up? You’d think so, but they don’t.
The same carefully crafted holes in the system meant to allow illegal immigrants to hide, allow native criminals to hide, too. That, too, is a cost of illegal immigration.
“But except for the minority who are engaged in the drug trade, is there any evidence that, once they are here, these illegal immigrants are more inclined to violate our laws than those of us who were born here?”
You mean, aside from identity theft, and illegally being employed? And driving without a license or insurance? And maybe the occasional theft or murder?
I don’t think people are so neatly compartmentalized as you apparently believe. Disdain for following this set of rules isn’t completely uncorrelated with disdain for following that set of rules.
Unfortunately for you, crime statistics agree with me. Illegal immigrants are over-represented in our prisons, even with ‘catch and release’ programs that divert them from the criminal justice system when caught. (And don’t release them back into Mexico, either!)
I would add to the cost the distortions to our system needed to accommodate a large population of illegal immigrants. For instance, the IRS very carefully does NOT report obvious cases of identity theft; If my SS number gets used for two jobs, my engineering job in SC, and a gardening job in DC, do red flags go up? You’d think so, but they don’t.
The same carefully crafted holes in the system meant to allow illegal immigrants to hide, allow native criminals to hide, too. That, too, is a cost of illegal immigration.
Marty,
I don’t particularly like to accuse people of being racist. I think that we draw boundaries about who we care about, and it’s not really for me to judge how people draw those lines. So I wasn’t trying to call you racist and the crack about la vida loca was probably unfair and I apologize for that.
I’d prefer to try and come to grips with the idea that you are putting forward, which I do find quite problematic. Others have pointed out the improbability of immigrants looking to move to the US and thinking ‘wow, they are going to feed me’. I believe they are thinking that they want to send money back to their family, or that they want their children to have better chances than they did. This seem like pretty rock-solid conservative values, so I’m baffled as to why you wouldn’t want to embrace the sort of people who have these values.
Of course, many people want to come to the US because there is an asymmetry and part of the reason for that asymmetry is because the US doesn’t really do much in the way of supporting Central and South American democracy. A lot of the instability in Mexico, Columbia and other places in Central America is because of the demand for drugs and demand that is fueled in the US.
Another aspect is how miserly this seems. You didn’t state what you meant by food assistance, but given how wealthy the US is, and what a tiny sliver of the budget is for what we do give out as food assistance, and the fact that illegal immigrants do not make up a huge portion of the 47 million people on food assistance makes it seem even more miserly.
Russell points out how much value is created by the undocumented workers. What you are concerned about is that somehow, the undocumented are ‘stealing’ from us, getting something they don’t deserve. Yet, if the undocumented actually received the money they put into the social security system, we probably wouldn’t be talking about them needing food assistance.
Because those wages were reported by employers and not paid under the table, Social Security and Medicare deductions had to be made. A total of 12.4 percent of those wages went into the SSA system — 6.2 percent paid each by the worker and the employer. An additional 2.9 percent was paid into Medicare, half by the worker and half by the employer.
That means about $11.2 billion went into the Social Security Trust Fund in 2007, and $2.6 billion went into Medicare. While that money will be used to pay retirees and health-care beneficiaries, it most likely will never be claimed by the illegal immigrants who contributed it.
link
In your last comment, what walk it back from ‘Mexican’s to the idea that this is the reality for the ‘poorest immigrants’ (poorest Mexicans?). Again, no definition of ‘poorest’ and what percentage or what numbers they are. But I’ve never thought that the amount of money one has is the determining factor as to whether they get food or can raise their children. And one of their children might be the person to cure cancer, or build a better mousetrap. Seriously.
One reason these figures are remarkable is that, according to the report, the foreign-born population of the United States has averaged 10.5 percent since 1850. That means immigrant entrepreneurs are overrepresented on the list of founders of Fortune 500 companies. As the report notes, “The revenue generated by Fortune 500 companies founded by immigrants of children of immigrants is greater than the GDP (gross domestic product) of every country in the world outside the U.S., except China and Japan.” These Fortune 500 companies had combined revenues of $4.2 trillion in 2010, $1.7 trillion which from immigrant-founded companies.
Marty,
I don’t particularly like to accuse people of being racist. I think that we draw boundaries about who we care about, and it’s not really for me to judge how people draw those lines. So I wasn’t trying to call you racist and the crack about la vida loca was probably unfair and I apologize for that.
I’d prefer to try and come to grips with the idea that you are putting forward, which I do find quite problematic. Others have pointed out the improbability of immigrants looking to move to the US and thinking ‘wow, they are going to feed me’. I believe they are thinking that they want to send money back to their family, or that they want their children to have better chances than they did. This seem like pretty rock-solid conservative values, so I’m baffled as to why you wouldn’t want to embrace the sort of people who have these values.
Of course, many people want to come to the US because there is an asymmetry and part of the reason for that asymmetry is because the US doesn’t really do much in the way of supporting Central and South American democracy. A lot of the instability in Mexico, Columbia and other places in Central America is because of the demand for drugs and demand that is fueled in the US.
Another aspect is how miserly this seems. You didn’t state what you meant by food assistance, but given how wealthy the US is, and what a tiny sliver of the budget is for what we do give out as food assistance, and the fact that illegal immigrants do not make up a huge portion of the 47 million people on food assistance makes it seem even more miserly.
Russell points out how much value is created by the undocumented workers. What you are concerned about is that somehow, the undocumented are ‘stealing’ from us, getting something they don’t deserve. Yet, if the undocumented actually received the money they put into the social security system, we probably wouldn’t be talking about them needing food assistance.
Because those wages were reported by employers and not paid under the table, Social Security and Medicare deductions had to be made. A total of 12.4 percent of those wages went into the SSA system — 6.2 percent paid each by the worker and the employer. An additional 2.9 percent was paid into Medicare, half by the worker and half by the employer.
That means about $11.2 billion went into the Social Security Trust Fund in 2007, and $2.6 billion went into Medicare. While that money will be used to pay retirees and health-care beneficiaries, it most likely will never be claimed by the illegal immigrants who contributed it.
link
In your last comment, what walk it back from ‘Mexican’s to the idea that this is the reality for the ‘poorest immigrants’ (poorest Mexicans?). Again, no definition of ‘poorest’ and what percentage or what numbers they are. But I’ve never thought that the amount of money one has is the determining factor as to whether they get food or can raise their children. And one of their children might be the person to cure cancer, or build a better mousetrap. Seriously.
One reason these figures are remarkable is that, according to the report, the foreign-born population of the United States has averaged 10.5 percent since 1850. That means immigrant entrepreneurs are overrepresented on the list of founders of Fortune 500 companies. As the report notes, “The revenue generated by Fortune 500 companies founded by immigrants of children of immigrants is greater than the GDP (gross domestic product) of every country in the world outside the U.S., except China and Japan.” These Fortune 500 companies had combined revenues of $4.2 trillion in 2010, $1.7 trillion which from immigrant-founded companies.
Illegal immigrants are over-represented in our prisons
and 65% of these people have been arrested, according to the document you linked, are for immigration violations.
48% are for “drugs”. it seems reasonable to assume that cross-border smuggling is a big chunk of that.
39% are “traffic violations”, which we can assume is either the pretext used to stop and search them, or is related to smuggling.
38% are “obstruction of justice”.
35% are “assault”
31% are “other”
You mean, aside from identity theft
cite?
and illegally being employed?
which is a crime of the employer. but all good anarchists know we can’t make anything harder for employers.
And driving without a license or insurance?
they’re just principled anarchists, protesting the reach of big government. you should applaud them.
And maybe the occasional theft or murder?
21% and 8%, respectively.
it might be interesting to know what the numbers are for native felons.
Illegal immigrants are over-represented in our prisons
and 65% of these people have been arrested, according to the document you linked, are for immigration violations.
48% are for “drugs”. it seems reasonable to assume that cross-border smuggling is a big chunk of that.
39% are “traffic violations”, which we can assume is either the pretext used to stop and search them, or is related to smuggling.
38% are “obstruction of justice”.
35% are “assault”
31% are “other”
You mean, aside from identity theft
cite?
and illegally being employed?
which is a crime of the employer. but all good anarchists know we can’t make anything harder for employers.
And driving without a license or insurance?
they’re just principled anarchists, protesting the reach of big government. you should applaud them.
And maybe the occasional theft or murder?
21% and 8%, respectively.
it might be interesting to know what the numbers are for native felons.
…Others have pointed out the improbability of immigrants looking to move to the US and thinking ‘wow, they are going to feed me’. I believe they are thinking that they want to send money back to their family, or that they want their children to have better chances than they did. This seem like pretty rock-solid conservative values, so I’m baffled as to why you wouldn’t want to embrace the sort of people who have these values.
Of course, many people want to come to the US because there is an asymmetry and part of the reason for that asymmetry is because the US doesn’t really do much in the way of supporting Central and South American democracy. A lot of the instability in Mexico, Columbia and other places in Central America is because of the demand for drugs and demand that is fueled in the US.
Another aspect is how miserly this seems.
Lets start with this, I pointed out the reality of what happens when people arrive, mostly poor, with almost no resources. You decided that I am miserly. That’s a big leap. I didn’t say anything about them being bad, lazy etc. Those are assumptions you made. I don’t understand, what I said in the first place, my exact words:
It is interesting to me that many people get so insulted that someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, without insurance and living in a underground economy
All of your value judgments about that are yours. They are poor people. Some are less poor, the poorest are without anything.
I would prefer if you spent more time on the value they bring as in your second paragraph, what Russell focuses on, rather than being so hot to accuse me of a value judgment for pointing out what I consider, from experience, are facts.
…Others have pointed out the improbability of immigrants looking to move to the US and thinking ‘wow, they are going to feed me’. I believe they are thinking that they want to send money back to their family, or that they want their children to have better chances than they did. This seem like pretty rock-solid conservative values, so I’m baffled as to why you wouldn’t want to embrace the sort of people who have these values.
Of course, many people want to come to the US because there is an asymmetry and part of the reason for that asymmetry is because the US doesn’t really do much in the way of supporting Central and South American democracy. A lot of the instability in Mexico, Columbia and other places in Central America is because of the demand for drugs and demand that is fueled in the US.
Another aspect is how miserly this seems.
Lets start with this, I pointed out the reality of what happens when people arrive, mostly poor, with almost no resources. You decided that I am miserly. That’s a big leap. I didn’t say anything about them being bad, lazy etc. Those are assumptions you made. I don’t understand, what I said in the first place, my exact words:
It is interesting to me that many people get so insulted that someone would note that many Mexicans come here and quickly end up on food assistance, without insurance and living in a underground economy
All of your value judgments about that are yours. They are poor people. Some are less poor, the poorest are without anything.
I would prefer if you spent more time on the value they bring as in your second paragraph, what Russell focuses on, rather than being so hot to accuse me of a value judgment for pointing out what I consider, from experience, are facts.
Wait a second! I thought the official liberal position was that illegal immigrants were all saints – each and every one of them. Isn’t that what the memo said? Let’s get it together, people!
Wait a second! I thought the official liberal position was that illegal immigrants were all saints – each and every one of them. Isn’t that what the memo said? Let’s get it together, people!
You decided that I am miserly.
The quote (with emphasis):
Are you “this”? Is “seems” “is”?
You decided that I am miserly.
The quote (with emphasis):
Are you “this”? Is “seems” “is”?
When all you’ve got is a hammer… Liberals’ ‘hammer’ is accusations of racism and bigotry, so everyone who disagrees with them looks like a bigot.
Right now, most immigration from Mexico is illegal. Were we to open up legal immigration from Mexico, they would not be the same people. Because we don’t admit, without considerable compensating reasons, legal immigrants who don’t speak English, and have clean criminal records. Legal immigrants are generally English literate, law abiding, well educated.
Which is to say, legal immigrants compete with the nation’s elite for jobs, while illegal immigrants compete with the nation’s downtrodden for jobs. Which, I think, is all you need to know to explain why we have massive illegal immigration, and tight restrictions on legal immigration.
When all you’ve got is a hammer… Liberals’ ‘hammer’ is accusations of racism and bigotry, so everyone who disagrees with them looks like a bigot.
Right now, most immigration from Mexico is illegal. Were we to open up legal immigration from Mexico, they would not be the same people. Because we don’t admit, without considerable compensating reasons, legal immigrants who don’t speak English, and have clean criminal records. Legal immigrants are generally English literate, law abiding, well educated.
Which is to say, legal immigrants compete with the nation’s elite for jobs, while illegal immigrants compete with the nation’s downtrodden for jobs. Which, I think, is all you need to know to explain why we have massive illegal immigration, and tight restrictions on legal immigration.
hsh (and lj),
ok I’ll quit being so sensitive.
hsh (and lj),
ok I’ll quit being so sensitive.
Which is to say, legal immigrants compete with the nation’s elite for jobs, while illegal immigrants compete with the nation’s downtrodden for jobs. Which, I think, is all you need to know to explain why we have massive illegal immigration, and tight restrictions on legal immigration.
Why would the elites permit any kind of legal immigration at all then? Or, why not flip it around and only legally admit non-English speaking, uneducated migrants and prohibit English speaking educated ones?
Which is to say, legal immigrants compete with the nation’s elite for jobs, while illegal immigrants compete with the nation’s downtrodden for jobs. Which, I think, is all you need to know to explain why we have massive illegal immigration, and tight restrictions on legal immigration.
Why would the elites permit any kind of legal immigration at all then? Or, why not flip it around and only legally admit non-English speaking, uneducated migrants and prohibit English speaking educated ones?
Illegal immigrants are over-represented in our prisons, even with ‘catch and release’ programs that divert them from the criminal justice system when caught.
In addition to what cleek noted, I would point out that, based on crime statistics, poor people are much more likely to commit drug possession crimes. Simply because it is a quick and easy charge to make, keeps the arrest statistics up, and isn’t likely to involve the kind of long trials against high-priced lawyers that arresting some rich kid would. Similarly, you can go to the right neighborhood or job site and find a bunch of easy arrests of people who aren’t going to require expensive prosecutions either. Not like going looking for some high tech guy who has overstayed his visa.
But hey, statistics don’t lie, right?
Illegal immigrants are over-represented in our prisons, even with ‘catch and release’ programs that divert them from the criminal justice system when caught.
In addition to what cleek noted, I would point out that, based on crime statistics, poor people are much more likely to commit drug possession crimes. Simply because it is a quick and easy charge to make, keeps the arrest statistics up, and isn’t likely to involve the kind of long trials against high-priced lawyers that arresting some rich kid would. Similarly, you can go to the right neighborhood or job site and find a bunch of easy arrests of people who aren’t going to require expensive prosecutions either. Not like going looking for some high tech guy who has overstayed his visa.
But hey, statistics don’t lie, right?
When all you’ve got is a hammer… Liberals’ ‘hammer’ is accusations of racism and bigotry, so everyone who disagrees with them looks like a bigot.
Generally, when liberals ask for data to back up an assertion, it is a veiled accusation of racism. This is one of our great secrets, or at least it was.
When all you’ve got is a hammer… Liberals’ ‘hammer’ is accusations of racism and bigotry, so everyone who disagrees with them looks like a bigot.
Generally, when liberals ask for data to back up an assertion, it is a veiled accusation of racism. This is one of our great secrets, or at least it was.
You mean, aside from identity theft
cite?
cleek, I think Brett simply means that illegals frequently are using someone else’s SSN. Just to give the employer a number to report on. Not really a loss for anyone involved . . . except the immigrant, of course.
If he thinks that more than that is happening, I too would be interested in a citation.
You mean, aside from identity theft
cite?
cleek, I think Brett simply means that illegals frequently are using someone else’s SSN. Just to give the employer a number to report on. Not really a loss for anyone involved . . . except the immigrant, of course.
If he thinks that more than that is happening, I too would be interested in a citation.
Legal immigrants are generally English literate, law abiding, well educated.
Might that not reflect the fact that legal immigrants are not, generally, the kind of folks who come here to do farm and construction work? I’m somehow not seeing immigrant farm workers, if we allowed more legal immigration, being the kind of highly educated and English literate folks that are the bulk of those currently making it here legally.
That said, I completely agree with your possition that we ought to massively rewrite our immigration laws. Including opening up legal immigration substantially.
Legal immigrants are generally English literate, law abiding, well educated.
Might that not reflect the fact that legal immigrants are not, generally, the kind of folks who come here to do farm and construction work? I’m somehow not seeing immigrant farm workers, if we allowed more legal immigration, being the kind of highly educated and English literate folks that are the bulk of those currently making it here legally.
That said, I completely agree with your possition that we ought to massively rewrite our immigration laws. Including opening up legal immigration substantially.
“Generally, when liberals ask for data to back up an assertion, it is a veiled accusation of racism. This is one of our great secrets, or at least it was.”
It would be a better secret if the word racist didn’t make it into the request.
“Generally, when liberals ask for data to back up an assertion, it is a veiled accusation of racism. This is one of our great secrets, or at least it was.”
It would be a better secret if the word racist didn’t make it into the request.
Marty,
I can understand how you might feel it is directed at you, but has hairshirt points out, I really am trying to talk about the idea and not about you. I apologize if I wasn’t clear.
Marty,
I can understand how you might feel it is directed at you, but has hairshirt points out, I really am trying to talk about the idea and not about you. I apologize if I wasn’t clear.
Guess what this is about:
Justice Clarence Thomas agreed with the outcome of the case, but wrote separately to say that he would have gone further and wiped away all contribution limits.
Guess what this is about:
Justice Clarence Thomas agreed with the outcome of the case, but wrote separately to say that he would have gone further and wiped away all contribution limits.
This might have happened before, and I might have brought it up before, but for the more tech-savvy:
I replied to an e-mail from my daughter’s softball coach, using y a h o o, and I showed up in the recipient list of his e-mail as “hairshirthedonist.” Going into my account settings, I find that is not one of my aliases. WTF? Am I the only one seeing it that way, I hope?
This might have happened before, and I might have brought it up before, but for the more tech-savvy:
I replied to an e-mail from my daughter’s softball coach, using y a h o o, and I showed up in the recipient list of his e-mail as “hairshirthedonist.” Going into my account settings, I find that is not one of my aliases. WTF? Am I the only one seeing it that way, I hope?
Liberals’ ‘hammer’ is accusations of racism and bigotry, so everyone who disagrees with them looks like a bigot.
LOL.
What’s your hammer, Brett?
Right now, most immigration from Mexico is illegal. Were we to open up legal immigration from Mexico, they would not be the same people. Because we don’t admit, without considerable compensating reasons, legal immigrants who don’t speak English, and have clean criminal records. Legal immigrants are generally English literate, law abiding, well educated.
Which is to say, legal immigrants compete with the nation’s elite for jobs, while illegal immigrants compete with the nation’s downtrodden for jobs.
I think you substantially misunderstand US immigration policy.
The US grants about 675,000 immigration visas a year. The overwhelming majority – about 480,000 – go to people who have immediate family members living here already.
You don’t have to speak English, you don’t have to be well educated, you don’t have to have a clean criminal record. There are some serious crimes that will bar you from entry, but a perfectly clean criminal record is not required.
You have to have good English skills to become a citizen, but not to become a legal permanent resident.
If you have a family member living here, haven’t killed or raped anybody, and haven’t been busted for narcotics, the biggest impediment is going to be the relatively limited number of visas available, relative to the number of people who want to come.
The folks who compete for “elite jobs” are the folks who come on the various employment visas. Those are limited to 140,000 a year, about 20% of the total.
Many of the folks competing for low-end jobs come on temporary work visas such as the H-2A, which is used for agricultural workers. In general, they take jobs that Americans won’t do, or won’t do for the wages that the immigrants will work for.
I personally would have no problem with having Americans do those jobs, but stuff would cost more.
Are you willing to pay more for groceries, hotel rooms, and restaurant meals in order to make that happen?
All of this stuff is dead easy to find, if only you have the slightest interest in doing so.
Liberals’ ‘hammer’ is accusations of racism and bigotry, so everyone who disagrees with them looks like a bigot.
LOL.
What’s your hammer, Brett?
Right now, most immigration from Mexico is illegal. Were we to open up legal immigration from Mexico, they would not be the same people. Because we don’t admit, without considerable compensating reasons, legal immigrants who don’t speak English, and have clean criminal records. Legal immigrants are generally English literate, law abiding, well educated.
Which is to say, legal immigrants compete with the nation’s elite for jobs, while illegal immigrants compete with the nation’s downtrodden for jobs.
I think you substantially misunderstand US immigration policy.
The US grants about 675,000 immigration visas a year. The overwhelming majority – about 480,000 – go to people who have immediate family members living here already.
You don’t have to speak English, you don’t have to be well educated, you don’t have to have a clean criminal record. There are some serious crimes that will bar you from entry, but a perfectly clean criminal record is not required.
You have to have good English skills to become a citizen, but not to become a legal permanent resident.
If you have a family member living here, haven’t killed or raped anybody, and haven’t been busted for narcotics, the biggest impediment is going to be the relatively limited number of visas available, relative to the number of people who want to come.
The folks who compete for “elite jobs” are the folks who come on the various employment visas. Those are limited to 140,000 a year, about 20% of the total.
Many of the folks competing for low-end jobs come on temporary work visas such as the H-2A, which is used for agricultural workers. In general, they take jobs that Americans won’t do, or won’t do for the wages that the immigrants will work for.
I personally would have no problem with having Americans do those jobs, but stuff would cost more.
Are you willing to pay more for groceries, hotel rooms, and restaurant meals in order to make that happen?
All of this stuff is dead easy to find, if only you have the slightest interest in doing so.
hsh, win 8 tries to merge all of your identities, occasionally causing odd results across accounts.
hsh, win 8 tries to merge all of your identities, occasionally causing odd results across accounts.
Guess what this is about
Cash Rules Everything Around Me
Guess what this is about
Cash Rules Everything Around Me
Marty, the weird thing is that it’s, AFAICT, only on the e-mails from our softball coach. I’m at work, and my workstation is still running on XP.
I tried deleting my cookies and logging back into my e-mail account, but the admin restrictions must only allow me to delete certain things. Previously used links were no longer colored differently from unused ones, yet typepad (or whatever it is) still had my handle and (phoney) e-mail address filled in on this site.
That actually makes me feel a little better. If ObWi didn’t know it was me, but yahoo mail still had my handle, that would be even worse.
I guess I’ll see what happens at home, but we’re still on Win 7.
Marty, the weird thing is that it’s, AFAICT, only on the e-mails from our softball coach. I’m at work, and my workstation is still running on XP.
I tried deleting my cookies and logging back into my e-mail account, but the admin restrictions must only allow me to delete certain things. Previously used links were no longer colored differently from unused ones, yet typepad (or whatever it is) still had my handle and (phoney) e-mail address filled in on this site.
That actually makes me feel a little better. If ObWi didn’t know it was me, but yahoo mail still had my handle, that would be even worse.
I guess I’ll see what happens at home, but we’re still on Win 7.
I think it’s a g m a i l thing. I set something up a long time ago so I could comment on an on-line friend’s now-defunct blog, using this same handle. The coach is using g m a i l.
I think it’s a g m a i l thing. I set something up a long time ago so I could comment on an on-line friend’s now-defunct blog, using this same handle. The coach is using g m a i l.