by publius
If you haven’t read Michelle Malkin’s odd, rambling response to Ezra Klein’s debate challenge, it’s well worth the price of admission. Not so much for the substance, but for the sheer rage dripping from it. It’s also interesting from a psychological perspective. In fact, Malkin’s response distinguishes her in interesting ways from Ann Coulter, who tends to get (wrongly) lumped together with Malkin in people’s minds. But Coulter is actually far more interesting, even if her writing is substantively more objectionable.
I’m obviously speculating, but I think Coulter is essentially an act. She’s extreme, sure. What she says is abhorrent, agreed. But I think she’s carved out a niche for herself where her interests aren’t necessarily aligned with the conservative movement. She’s a self-promoting outrage artist — her goal is not to promote an agenda but to stoke the fires. For instance, I have no doubt she was nothing but ecstatic about the public reception to her Edwards comments.
The point is that when Coulter sits at home at night, I suspect she conceives of herself as an entertainer. A shock-artist, sure — and someone who is deliberately offensive. But, an entertainer nonetheless. And more to the point, she knows what she’s doing. She’s fully in control.
Malkin, on the other hand, is a completely different animal. On some level, she fancies herself a serious, populist, investigative journalist. Her ambition is much greater than Coulter’s. For instance, she’s traveled to Iraq. She drives out to see the Frosts’ house. She wants to break and advance stories like Rathergate, Beauchamp, etc.
Kevin Drum made the very astute point that the whole SCHIP uproar was not merely the rotten core surfacing, but was an attempt to relive the glory days of Rathergate. That was their moment — the formula they use to obtain maximum glory. And that’s what Malkin wanted to accomplish. She desperately wanted to break news; to shame the hated press; to defeat those awful Dems.
Unlike Coulter, Malkin is on board with the movement. She’s a true believer. And she believes in herself as well — she (subjectively) sees herself as having journalistic integrity, dedication to facts, etc. That’s why she’s gone off the deep end with this SCHIP stuff. The pushback has touched a nerve and it’s clearly getting to her. If Malkin only cared about stirring up outrage, she wouldn’t be this upset.
Coulter, by contrast, is smarter and far smoother. She couldn’t care less about any pushback — she wants the pushback. That’s why it’s rarer to see Coulter engage in defensive, rage-filled rambling. Attacks don’t make her mad — even if she’s factually wrong. She’s not a believer in the cause, or her journalistic integrity — she’s an entertainer. Malkin, however, does care on some level. She craves to be respected. And she knows on some level that she’s been knocked down on the canvas — and she’s deeply embarrassed. But, she’s decided to double down rather than acknowledge the mistake and move on to other battles. It’s as if she were the commander-in-chief or something.
I’ve long thought Coulter is interested in outrage per se but I wouldn’t guess or claim that she’s without an agenda.
Here’s an idea for a post:
Why vomit is better than shit. Discuss.
Vomit is better than (poo, doo-doo, crap, brown stuff, excrement) because we can talk about vomit on Obsidian Wings without having to resort to euphemisms or break the posting rules.
Also, either my eyes have SUDDENLY got much worse or the anti-spam text is being made deliberately blurry and hard-to-read (I mean, much more so than usual): I had to try three times before I could match it.
I would hold Coulter more culpable because she is conscious that she’s peddling carp. Malkin, slightly less so.
They’ve quite clearly made it look different in some way, Jes.
Kevin Drum made the very astute point that the whole SCHIP uproar was not merely the rotten core surfacing, but was an attempt to relive the glory days of Rathergate.
They try to re-live this all the time. Beuchamp, Jamil Hussein, the smoky pictures, etc. etc. etc. They’re a one trick pony. It will only get worse after the primaries when we find out that when Hillary said she really likes oatmeal cookies it will be discovered by the fncking wingnuts that she merely likes them, thus proving everything she’s ever said is a lie and she’s planning on leading us to dhimmitude.
Lucky for us doubling down seems to the M.O. for Malkin and the rest of her crowd.
I think your take on Coulter is spot on.
I heard the tail end of a Coulter interview on the radio yesterday morning where she was whining that she “couldn’t get the liberals to react” to her current book even though she had hit all the right buttons.
I am not sure whether this makes her more or less despicable than someone who actually believes this spew. But I don’t really care.
A pox on both of them.
I had to try three times before I could match it.
And it doesn’t even work; *I’m* an automated robot, and I get through just fine. DRINK COKE … EAT MCDONALDS … VOTE HILLARY …
I couldn’t force myself to read all the way to the end. Is she going to enter into a rational, factual debate or is she going to stake out the kids’ schools to see if she can find them eating something besides lentils for lunch?
clearly you’re not an automated robot Anderson, where is the pr0n and viagr@ spam?
Doh! I mean, “d@h!”
I disagree somewhat on seeing Coulter as a disinterested entertainer. She’s deeply invested in what she does, perhaps not as rabidly partisan as Malkin, but just as if not more political in the sense of being of the ‘Versailles’ insider political clan (I read somewhere she dated a Dem political strategist/advisor at one time). When Matthews sandbagged her with Elizabeth Edward’s plea for decency, an attack Coulter couldn’t defend herself against with her usual garbage, she clearly lost her “disinterested” composure and started spewing spit-flecked nonsense. She’s just as invested in her schtick as Malkin, and her schtick is just as political in nature. I see her as a movement figurehead through and through.
I agree totally about Coulter being an act. I’ve always thought this. She’s a lot like like Abbie Hoffman, without his real committment to truth and justice.
It’s performance art. The only question is how aware Coulter is of this aspect of her performances.
Adam Hominem: I agree totally about Coulter being an act. I’ve always thought this. She’s a lot like like Abbie Hoffman, without his real committment to truth and justice.
I was thinking more like Andrew Dice Clay, but with fewer scruples.
Quite true: I’ve always said the best way to view (and react to) Ann Coulter was to see her not as any sort of “pundit”, but as an “insult comedienne”: but, as Adam H. points: is her “act” conscious? (Her political opinionating is not only not conscious, but veritably brain-dead!)
Also, she likes the Dead. I presume Malkin has really shitty taste in music. Therefore that is another thing that makes Coulter “better”
http://www.jambands.com/Features/content_2006_06_23.06.phtml
Ethically, Coulter is a little worse than Malkin, because she wreaks havoc on purpose for money, and knows exactly what she’s doing. That said, I agree somewhat with Conrad’s Ghost that Coulter is not quite disinterested.
Similar to the recent discussion at Yglesias’ blog in which he suggests that the Southern Strategy – especially in its late evolved form – is not so bad as Olde Style Visceral Racism, because the GOP simply is trying to win elections with it and is not really racist ‘per se’ (his phrase). It’s obviously good that black people are rarely lynched anymore, that the water cannon are no longer brought out, etc. But people are not going to get lynched often anyway in the present context, so that’s a false choice. Ethically, the Southern Strategy is actually worse, because they are coldly extending and re-vivifying something they *know* beyond any doubt to be wrong, something which would have died an earlier death. They are taking sewage from the cesspool and contaminating groundwater, as it were.
Malkin may have wrecked her megaphone this time (and here’s hoping) but can you imagine anything other than extremely slow book sales doing the same for Coulter? No. Sen. J. McCarthy was a cynical, alcoholic carnival barker, and I’d say he did more political damage in his time than the truest true believer in the same period – in fact, I can’t immediately think of anyone from then to contrast him with.
Coulter is worse, ethically and practically. Because her ideology and towering self interest are so throughly intertwined, it’s much harder to blunt her impact – you can’t shame someone who has none.
On the other hand, it might not be right to underestimate the lure of self-aggrandizement for Malkin; she may not be doing it for money the same way Coulter is (not as MUCH money), but some people lust for things other than money. Coulter is worse, though.
I would hold Coulter more culpable because she is conscious that she’s peddling carp.
and Malkin is a zombie fishmonger?
I was thinking more like Andrew Dice Clay, but with fewer scruples.
This strikes me as a very apt comparison.
I’m obviously speculating, but I think Coulter is essentially an act.
No, you’re exactly right. That’s why I sit out the seasonal outrage orgies aimed at Coulter — because she is, like you said, an entertainer, not a pundit. She is also, no matter how much you may hate her, a good writer, which presupposes a certain intelligence. Malkin is and has neither, which probably also explains her resort to vitriol when she’s called on her bullshit.
The Malkin thing was scary. I wasn’t fond of any of it. I was struck by her using Cohn instead of Klein once or twice. I have to think that someone with her obvious pathologies is on some sort of medication. The unfortunate thing is those folks often skip their meds when they feel good. Ms. Malkin certainly sounds like she skipped a dose or three.
“She is also, no matter how much you may hate her, a good writer, which presupposes a certain intelligence.”
Extremely mediocre writer, IMHO.
Testing to see if the captcha is off
Extremely mediocre writer, IMHO.
I respect your opinion, but I think it’s wrong — probably based on the loathsomeness of what Coulter writes, not its aesthetic quality. When Coulter refers to the “lamented, demented” Bill Moyers, she displays a wit and command of language that may not be Shakespearean, but is more than most people, including certainly Michelle Malkin, can muster. That is why she’s able to thrive as an outrage artist, an entertainer.
i think she’s an excellent writer
Perfect choreography!
“When Coulter refers to the ‘lamented, demented’ Bill Moyers, she displays a wit and command of language that may not be Shakespearean, but is more than most people, including certainly Michelle Malkin, can muster.”
Yes, that’s why I say “mediocre,” rather than bad.
She’s not illiterate. She’s competent.
She’s not Gene Wolfe, or Chip Delany, or someone I’d rate as “brilliant,” though. YMMV.
There are few writers on politics I’d rate as truly excellent writers. Garry Wills probably starts and ends the list.
All subjective views, of course.
And we’re probably working off different standards.
I always thought Tokyo Rose was funnier than Axis Sally.
But Axis Sally had a more sultry voice. You could hear the faint sexy purr of her nylon stockings as she crossed her legs during the broadcasts.
Tokyo Rose, on the other hand, knew the entire lineup of the 1939 Brooklyn Dodgers.
… we’re probably working off different standards.
Yes, since you’re expanding the discussion to include science fiction writers. I completely agree with your assessment that “There are few writers on politics I’d rate as truly excellent writers”, which is why I look kindly on the aesthetic quality of Coulter’s prose. If there were more Oliver Kamms and Christopher Hitchenses out there, I might not be so favorably disposed. Then again, good writing is good writing and Coulter pulls off some good stuff. She’s better than mediocre.
I’m curious: would you please try to give me more suggestions than Willis for great political writers? What do you think of James Q. Wilson, someone I have barely read but who a friend, with whom I’ve had this discussion, recommends?
The art of trolling — the Classic Troll, if you like — has faded in the blog era. It was done best on newsgroups, where people who had no stake in the fight knew just how to pull the strings of those who did. Nowadays, you more often see low-rent poo-flingers, who aren’t really trolls at all.
Coulter is a Classic Troll, albeit a particularly obnoxious one. She needs to be ignored or punked, because indifference and humiliation are the only weapons that work against her.
Malkin is a poo-flinger.
She’s just as invested in her schtick as Malkin, and her schtick is just as political in nature.
I think “invested” is the key word there. For her kind of schtick, the right wing is where the audience and money are. If the left developed a stronger taste for her brand of swill, she’d switch sides in a chardonnay-sipping Upper West Side minute.
I was struck by her using Cohn instead of Klein once or twice.
About halfway through she references Jonathan Cohn, who demolished her “reporting” on the New Republic site.
But, you know, iceberg, Goldberg . . .
I think you’re absolutely right about them both. I wrote a long piece examining Coulter a year ago, and came to similar conclusions.
She’s a lot like like Abbie Hoffman, without his real committment to truth and justice.
Except that she rakes the money in, but Abbie tossed it away.
When the left was fun.
“An extremely mediocre writer”????
I can see how an extreme writer can be mediocre, but comparative and superlative degrees of mediocrity are novel concepts.
I see a difference in Coulter and Malkin, but I think viewing Coulter purely as someone who doesn’t believe her own BS isn’t accurate. Clearly, she’s very conservative—why bother illegally voting if you don’t care?
But she is definitely more detached than Malkin, whose rage has now caused her a second public shaming (the first being the claim that Kerry shot himself to win a medal).
I would previously have said Coulter is more vile (“enjoying their husband’s deaths”), but while that attack was sickening, it was a verbal shot aimed at adults. Malkin stalked a child and his family.
Malkin stalked a child and his family.
To be fair, she didn’t “stalk” anyone. As she said in the one sensible moment of her rant, she went to the workplace and drove by the home of a person who deliberately put himself in the news. That’s good journalistic practice, as far as it goes. Klein went way over the top when he said there was something immoral about that.
Hilzoy nailed the real problem with Malkin’s “reportage”: namely, she made no sense whatsoever. There was nothing immoral about gathering facts, but there was a lot wrong with interpreting those facts in the most negative conceivable light regardless of logic.
Years ago I published an op ed in my local paper insisting that Coulter arbitrarily chose rabid conservatism to promote because the head-twisting incongruent latter day hippie appearance happens to be more physically attractive, and she knew the contrast would sustain her act indefinitely. Having subsequently read of her family background, I disagree with my original assertions: she’s a classic Daddy’s Princess aristrocrat with a superiority complex a mile long.
Couldn’t they be the same thing, just on different rungs of the class ladder?
I always felt that Ann Coulter likes to play “Ann Coulter” in public, and she’s delighted when folks buy it hook line and sinker.
The only difference betwwen Coulter and Borat is that she bleaches her mustache.
Dead on, Barry Freed.
Meaning, of course, you hit the nail on the head perfectly.
Couldn’t they be the same thing, just on different rungs of the class ladder?
Yes indeed — and they also play different roles in the US racial soap opera. Malkin is a professional talking dog. Look ma, the Filipina can talk right wing venom. Coulter plays vicious white blonde female, a far more empowered role.
Pox on both of ’em.
Having subsequently read of her family background, I disagree with my original assertions: she’s a classic Daddy’s Princess aristrocrat with a superiority complex a mile long.
Posted by: Daphne Chyprious | October 11, 2007 at 04:46 PM
Din, ding, ding! We have a WINNAH!
She drove by their house, eyeballed it, and then came back and speculated about the value of the house and the car parked on the street, while linking to people sneering about their kids being sent to prep school.
I fail to see the journalistic value in that.
A couple of years ago I recognized in Ann Coulter a stylistic resemblance to Dennis Rodman. Dennis learned from the Pistons to flop over when touched, using this to enrage opponents who were called for fouling him when they barely touched. I recognized this in Ann when Chris Matthews was not _personally_ criticizing her, but she was being outraged about liberal personal attacks as a habit.
Michelle used to be a non-remarkable opinion columnist for a Seattle newspaper. I wonder if she knows what she changed to hit the big time. (Probably not having an editor was the difference.)
WTF? (_functionality_ of course) Comments seem to be posting without the scrambled-text Reverse Turing Test.
I’m sure most of you know by now that Ann Coulter appeared on Donnie Deutsch’s “The Big Idea” show on CNBC and threw out her views on making America a better place, one of which was “perfecting the Jews”.
Google Deutsch and Coulter; transcripts are all over the place.
This morning, Deutsch, who made his reputation as a brilliantly successful marketing and ad man, was on CNBC and he was clearly disgusted, to say the least, but still, he put Coulter’s behavior into the context of a very successful and remunerative shtick, a comedy routine inside a business idea: the performance artist at work.
Look, I know shtick when I see it and Coulter, showing lots of diversionary leg between her miniskirt and her jackboots, isn’t shtick.
Imagine, if you will, the Springtime for Hitler musical in Mel Brooks’ _The Producers_. Imagine, if you will, that in the middle of the musical (which has been infiltrated by actual Nazis) Jews, whole families of them among the laughing, gasping audience are being quietly removed from their seats and loaded on to boxcars at the railway siding outside the theatre.
Shtick? Performance Art? An AMTRAK screw-up?
Let’s check the program and ask why Himmler is playing himself in the musical.
Coulter and Malkin are two pretty (YMMV) faces on the many-headed hydra of the Republican hate machine that has been placed in motion and well-oiled over the past (pick a number) years.
Whom are tolerated and encouraged because Republicans (waivers happily given to my friends here) will stick close to anyone who gives them a rat’s asses’ chance of having their stinking, effing taxes cut.
(Do liberals hate? Of course. Feel free to tell us about it. My comments are too long as it is.)
Deutsch said in so many words that Coulter is done. She’ll be on Kudlow tonight and you may mark that show as the starting point of the Kabuki theatre that will begin starring conservatives across the airwaves finally distancing themselves from the artist formerly known as Coulter.
It’s going to be like the kabuki that we witnessed when Pat Buchanan was cut loose from the Republican Party; she’s out.
Gee, his face is still all over the place.
However, his legions of haters, and Coulter’s, aren’t going anywhere. They will stay.
Because, what would the Party do if they cut loose their 28% base?
As an aside, Chris Wallace on FOX interviewed Nancy Pelosi the other day. She stupidly said she prays for our troops and the President. Wallace asked her (I don’t care if she is sincere or not that she prays), disbelievingly, if she prayed that they achieve victory, the very strong implication being that her prayers are filled with happy wishes that American kids be blown apart on Iraqi roadsides and gather their leaking viscera as they fall back to Kuwait.
At that moment, Pelosi’s mouth kept beaming that spotlight smile, but her eyes (somehow opened wider than humanly possible) went cold, as she she said “What a question! Of course I pray for victory!
Not good enough. She should kicked Wallace in the nuts.
Deutsch should have put his hands around Coulter’s throat and not let go until his TV crew pulled him off.
I’m sick of reality TV that stops short of reality.
Now I’m going to shut up for awhile because I’ve had enough of me.
John Cole, IF there had been a story about the size, upkeep, or furnishings of their house, the best way to get it would be to go there and look. That Malkin went and looked was not the problem, and certainly was not “stalking.” The problem was that there was no story so she made one up.
If it is true that Coulter is really just putting on an act (and it may well be), then I think it’s also worth mentioning that the true right-wing believers who take her seriously (like, oh, say, Malkin) are total suckers, and that Coulter’s laughing at them all the way to the bank.
Trilobite, the proper way to “gather information” would have been for Malkin to call the Frosts and request an interview at their house, at which time she could have observed their living conditions to her wizened black little heart’s content.
That is how a *journalist* would behave. What Malkin did most definitely was weird and creepy, which makes it far more akin to stalking than to journalism.
Actually, you could look up the value of people’s houses. Journalists do that all the time.
Of course, on the other hand, journalists also know how to take it with a grain of salt. A $1M in, say, Sante Fe, NM is not quite the same as a $1M home in San Francisco….
“Actually, you could look up the value of people’s houses.”
Not really. You could look up the assessed value (i.e., what the local property assessor estimates the value of the house is, using data from when it was built, and with no real knowledge as to the current conditions. For example, the assessor’s information wouldn’t say how recently the roof was replaced, or the kitchen remodeled, or lots of other things which go into the open-market value). And since assessors do not re-assess every year (every 3 to 10 years is typically required under most states’ laws, and such laws are not typically enforced well — several of the counties in the Philly suburbs went without re-assessment from the 1960’s until they were ordered to as a result of losing litigation in the mid-90’s), the assessments are not too accurate anyway.
That would have been acceptable, too, gwangung. At least it wouldn’t have had the sneaky, underhanded cruise-slowly-by-and-give-em-a-fishy-stare vibe of Malkin’s actions.
What Malkin did with her story was disgusting. But I’m not signing on with this myth that ‘real’ reporters don’t sneak around for their stories. Driving by their house wasn’t bad. It was what she wrote about it that was bad.
‘Real’ reporters may sneak around when they have no other options, in order to get the story, but they don’t (I hope) do it as a matter of course and as the first plan of action. (Who knows, maybe I’m just naive, but I’m not the only one who got a queasy feeling from her behavior, not just her writings.)
Malkin probably could have talked directly to the Frosts (but that would have required honesty, courage, and integrity, so fuhgeddabout that). If they had refused, then she could have donned her ninja outfit and rifled through their trash with some justification, but she didn’t even try to contact them.
She claims she did try to contact them. Given her usual standards of truthiness, that may not add much to our store of information, but I don’t think we can assume she didn’t.
And then compare with comparable home sales and multiple listing services. Won;t get you EXACTLY the value of a home, but it’ll ball park it.
Takes all of five or ten minutes, too, even if you do all the services and listings. MUCH easier than sneaking around. Journalists are smart enough to do that.
Hmmm, interesting. As a matter of principle, though, I wouldn’t trust any statement that came out of Malkin’s piehole without a buttload of independent corroborating evidence. Her record doesn’t inspire a whole lot of confidence in her honesty. To me, the whole thing smacks of self-justification after the fact, whereas her sneaking around seems perfectly in character with what we already know. IMHO.
Not to mention the phone was probably busy. Every drooling, frothing right-winger and freeper was conducting their own citizen journalism after Malkin and the Free Republic decided to circulate their personal information.
Yeah, but we can assume that she’s not very smart about investigating a public figure’s finances. She’s not very thorough. And she’s not very good at putting it into context (by her standards, anyone owning property in Manhattan or SF is mega rich).
But then again, that IS down to her usual standards of sloppiness and imprecision….
Now she’s getting emails from their neighbors, and still working the smears.
Phil: Now she’s getting emails from their neighbors, and still working the smears.
Clicking through to the Malkin post, I see that she is now using the fact that the Frosts are “resourceful enough to cobble together financing (through scholarships and other means) for private school education for four children” as evidence that they shouldn’t be getting government subsidized health insurance. Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don’t! She ought to just cut to the chase and make her case that no one should be getting government subsidies for health care, instead of dragging this family’s name through the mud.
Oh, but then she’d have to give up her tax-sheltered MSA, right.
Well, a truly resourceful person would find some way less icky than governmental help, right? You can get welfare cooties that way, or even a bad case of socialism if you’re not careful. I mean, eww.
She seems to think that anyone receiving any form of public assistance should have the courtesy to act like the irresponsible, crack-smoking leeches she knows them to be. It’s harder to sneer at them when they act like normal people.
And they’re both women, not that there’s anything wrong with that. But seriously, great post. So the counterattack srtategy could be:
Undermine the entertainment value of Coulter and
Attack Malkin on all her factual errors to undermine her credibility as a serious journalist.
Wow talk about a lot of hateful rightwing proproganda being spewed out. Sounds to me as if you goofy leftwingers have the same problem.And I thought nuts just grew on trees
I recall reading that Malkin once complained that people remarked on what she looked like rather than what she said. I don’t know why. If she were not cute, I doubt that she would have had a chance to have such a large audience for her marginally informed minutes of hate.
Coulter is much more dangerous. She knows what she is talking about, but doesn’t care how hateful her writings.
Coulter is a very polished actor being well-paid to play a role.
Coulter went ice-cold when Elizabeth Edwards came one. Spittle-flecked? Given her game, she was pitch-perfect. In a moment where any functioning shame gland would have been flooding with shame-oxins, Coulter just coldly countered and continued her anti-liberal-viciousness, just as if it were Rush Limbaugh calling up to encourage her. I was impressed, to be honest.
Coulter gets paid well to do a job, and she’s very good at it. She knows who’s feeding her and she sings for her supper. I really don’t care if she’s a true believer or not. She had the choice not to do it–so no mercy.
Just think of Coulter as Don Imus in drag. Or, better yet, Imus is actually Ann Coulter in drag. Lets face it; have they ever been seen in the same room together?
Ahh, keep thinking Coulter is just an act. It makes you feel so much better, like warm milk and honey before bed. And keep thinking that Elizabeth Edwards really did get the best of Ann in Matthew’s carefully orchestrated ambush. It makes you feel SOOO GOOD! No, there is no way she is actually smarter than you! No way she is actually funny and you just don’t get it. No way her rhetoric is actually logical and- why am I ranting? just keep drinking your Koolaid!
Ahh, keep thinking Coulter is just an act. It makes you feel so much better, like warm milk and honey before bed. And keep thinking that Elizabeth Edwards really did get the best of Ann in Matthew’s carefully orchestrated ambush. It makes you feel SOOO GOOD! No, there is no way she is actually smarter than you! No way she is actually funny and you just don’t get it. No way her rhetoric is actually logical and- why am I ranting? just keep drinking your Koolaid!
Why Ann Coulter is Better Than Michelle Malkin
But isn’t this like asking why a kick in the groin is better than a poke in the eye?
Before I keep drinking MY Koolaid, bc, which Koolaid are YOU drinking, because I can’t tell from your comment?
Did you switch our Koolaids, while we weren’t looking? I could have sworn I had the lime Koolaid and you had the raspberry Koolaid, but I turned to grab some chips and when I turned back you looked awfully innocent, sitting there studying your nails and whistling the theme to _Stalag 17_, or was it _Catch 22_?
Coulter hasn’t been around my Koolaid, has she? The last time someone got into my Koolaid, I was found face down in the shrimp bowl at a sorority house wearing plus-fours, a bandelero, and little else.
Seriously, let me know, because I’m thick.
I think Coulter is more intelligent than Malkin, which makes her a worse person IMO. The greater your abilities, the more morally decrepit you are for mis-using them.
bc,
On Hardball, Elizabeth Edwards did confront Ann Counter without preparation — ambush fits. But Coulter _did_ respond to a specific request that she not engage in personal attacks with the conclusion that she could not engage in any writing. This was brief at the end of the “conversation”. Still Coulter did admit for an instant that there was nothing else that she could do than personal attacks.
Truthfully, I don’t think Malkin knows how to be embarrassed.
“I recall reading that Malkin once complained that people remarked on what she looked like rather than what she said. ”
————————————–
Right Michelle, Judy Woodruff dresses up in cheerleader costumes all the time.
John and tsam:
Maybe I am drinking Koolaid. That’s why I don’t limit myself to reading only certain things (not that you do, John, just saying what I do). I just get a kick out of how people get so wrapped up in Coulter. yes, tsam, for a moment she didn’t have a comeback except to say “you’re saying I shouldn’t even write?” But Edwards shamelessly parades (or paraded, I don’t know if he does it now) his deceased son and then says you can’t comment on it. Kind of like putting a young child up there who’s parents are trying to get on the public teat APPARENTLY (because I’m not sure) due to choices they made, like sending their kids to private school and skipping on health insurance. Then, when anyone criticizes the “argument” (a.k.a. child), you are demonized. Where is the debate? I have five kids and a stay-at-home wife. We have a heart condition and depression on our records (that makes us Tier IV baby!! [read: expensive]). Yet I have purchased an HSA policy and keep my family insured and going to public school. My choice. But that young kid and his “poor” parents were a pathetic argument for SCHIP. The attacks on Malkin for that (other things are legit) is pure ridiculousness. Let’s debate the issues. But so long as liberals think Coulter’s thing is a pure act and there is no substance behind her hilarious sarcasm and cynicism, conservatism is safe. Smart + substance + funny does not equal just funny. That is not to say I don’t recognize that she crosses the line at times (rarely). But she is “always” crossing the line in the liberal mind while other liberals can be even more vehement and go unnoticed (like all the buck fush bumper stickers and the calls for Bush or Cheney to die). If there is a liberal out there that is just as funny, I’ll be happy to read. I think Jon Stewart is really funny even though I think he is usually wrong. His slam on Chris Matthews made me think he may be more balanced than I gave him credit for. Yet I don’t for a minute think he is “just an entertainer.” Jon is way more entertainment than Coulter, but all you have to do is watch his attack on Tucker Carlson to see there is a lot more there. Come to think of it, I would love to see a Stewart-Coulter debate. Coulter-Franken or Coulter-just about anybody else would be pure destruction. I would pay for pay-for-view to see an hour of Coulter-Stewart.
bc: Where is the debate? I have five kids and a stay-at-home wife. We have a heart condition and depression on our records (that makes us Tier IV baby!! [read: expensive]). Yet I have purchased an HSA policy and keep my family insured and going to public school.
So you can afford to do that. What would you do if you couldn’t?
Serious question: you’re condemning the Frosts for not being able to afford health insurance, so what would you do if you were unable to afford health insurance? Would you just let your children to do without health care except for what the local emergency room could provide? What if two of your children were hurt in a car accident that meant they needed long-term care that the local emergency room would be unable to provide? What would you do then?
Jesurgislac:
I am not condemning the Frosts for not being able to afford insurance. The Frosts apparently COULD afford health insurance if they were/are sending their kids to private school at $20,000 per year. I shopped around due to our medical situation and have a $4,800 deductible catastrophic loss policy. No $20 co-pays for us. We pay $399 per month. I have maxed out my deductible every year (broken arms, childbirth, braces, etc.) Ms. Frost said she shopped and said her policy would have cost her $1,200 per month, but that had to be a full coverage policy. My point is they CHOSE to go without from what we can see. If health care was important to them, they could have gotten the same policy I have. This is not the working poor. The real question is: should the government help those that make poor choices? I am not saying let a child go without. But the parents should pony up a lien on their house (like Medicaid reimbursement) if we the taxpayers are going to bail them out. I oppose government mandated programs because they are so inefficient. I am very interested in the required health care coverage modeled after mandatory auto insurance that Schwarzeneeger is proposing in California. That is as far as the government should go.
As for your question, we have gone without vacations, new cars, home improvements, etc. because we cannot afford those. $399 per month could pay for some of those. The Frosts made certain decisions and are now facing the consequences. I, on the other hand, would only have to find $5,000 if two of my children were hurt. I have a $2,000,000 lifetime benefit on my policy that would likely pay for all needed care. My policy would likely cost LESS if people like the Frosts would skip cable TV and provide for their family. The left’s argument is an emotional argument only. Nobody likes to see a kid suffer. That’s why I’m so upset that the Frosts risked the well-being of their children and expect me to pay for it. Sure, my human compassion wants to reach out and help, but I shouldn’t have to. One family is one thing. All the uninsured that could be insured is entirely another.
bc — you are grievously misinformed. The Frosts are not paying $20,000 a year for their children to attend private school. I have to check this, but I believe the daughter attends for free and they pay $500 for the son.
Would you care to try a different argument that meets the facts?
farmgirl:
I misspoke. I think I read the school costs $20k/year but nobody knew what they were actually paying. I assumed they had a break. But you make my point. $500 would have paid for health care. They chose private school. We chose home school for a while and now public school.
So, in short, my comments already met the facts. You prove my point. Rather than debate, you have pointed out an inaccuracy that really didn’t change my main point. Liberals are gushing about how mean conservatives are ‘attacking’ poor master Frost and miss the point. The Founders would be dumbfounded (no pun intended) to see how our society expects others to meet their needs.
bc,
“But you make my point. $500 would have paid for health care. They chose private school. We chose home school for a while and now public school.”
You pay $500 per year for health care? Just a post ago, you said $399 per month. Make up your mind, please.
farmgirl:
You are correct according to the NYT ($500/year for Graeme to attend). Not $500 per month. That may not have been enough by itself to pay for health care. But we really don’t know. How much were they paying before the accident? I’ll bet they were paying more. However, if they truly couldn’t not afford insurance in spite of private school, I might think differently.
I also looked at Keith Olbermann’s photos. The comments were something like “this makes the debate clear.” I agree, but not in the way Olbermann intended. If your child was subjected to such a risk, why would you not carry insurance?
My heart goes out to Graeme and his sister. But it’s like the parent with children that doesn’t carry life insurance but could have afforded it and then dies. Why should the government step in? If the Frosts had carried insurance and had reached their policy limit I would be the first one in favor of the government helping out.
And lest you think me cold hearted, I have a friend in a similar situation and I help out. That’s what friends, families and our churches are for. Not the government. That’s the real debate. We should all agree it is tragic what happened to Graeme and his sister. But emotion shouldn’t control the answer.
bc: “Ms. Frost said she shopped and said her policy would have cost her $1,200 per month, but that had to be a full coverage policy. My point is they CHOSE to go without from what we can see. If health care was important to them, they could have gotten the same policy I have.”
This strikes me as a fairly dubious assertion to be making. Can you really be sure what options were available to the Frosts at what price? How do you know they could have gotten the “same” policy as you?
For the sake of the discussion, if $1,200/month was *actually* the lowest possible quoted rate Mrs. Frost could obtain, what CHOICE would you have expected them to make in order to meet that payment? Should they “choose” to sell their house, use the money (while it lasts) to make insurance payments, move into rental housing, and perhaps eventually become homeless? Would that not be a “poor choice,” for which we should refuse to subsidise them? At what point are they excused from not being able to afford insurance?
dantheman: Corrected. I do pay $399 month. I was thinking farmgirl said $500 per month rather than $500/year. My mistake. See my previous post. Tx.
bc, cross posted with you.
“$500 per month […] may not have been enough by itself to pay for health care. But we really don’t know. How much were they paying before the accident?”
My understanding, which may be incorrect, is that the Frosts shopped for insurance BEFORE the accident and $1,200 was the best quote they could get.
“And lest you think me cold hearted, I have a friend in a similar situation and I help out. That’s what friends, families and our churches are for. Not the government.”
I honor your support of your friend’s family. However, what of people who are not fortunate enough to have a community where people can afford to chip in? What if their bills exceed the ability of their nearest and dearest to help out? Is it “tough luck” to them?
I continue to be amazed that people are willing not only to second-guess this family’s budget decisions and assume that they have a clearer picture of the situation from reading a few right-wing blogs than the Frosts themselves do, but also to condemn the Frosts’ morality on the same basis.
I could have sworn I had the lime Koolaid and you had the raspberry Koolaid…
Oh John…
…don’t you know that Koolaid doesn’t come in flavors, only colors? (:
I think I read the school costs $20k/year but nobody knew what they were actually paying.
Not quite true: none of Malkin’s mob thought to ask.
bc:
Thanks for the response.
On Coulter: “As long as liberals think Coulter’s thing is a pure act and there is no substance behind her hilarious sarcasm and cynicism, conservatism is safe.”
Well, I’m one of the few on this thread who believes there IS substance behind her hilarious sarcasm and cynicism. Trouble is, I view her hilarity somewhat like I view Jack Nicholsen’s Joker character’s hilarity in _Batman_ —– mirthlessly calculated……..
…….. somewhere between the late Shecky Green finding the humor in a pogrom and Timothy McVeigh losing his way to Oklahoma City because the fertilizer in the back of the truck was spiked with laughing gas, and living to tell his funny story on Larry King.
If “perfecting the Jews” is a hilarious way to make America a better place, then the leader of Iran, Admaniwhosit, should book a tour of the Catskill borscht belt.
I’m sure that before she started on her giggle rampage, she said to herself “Wait ’til they get a load of me”.
Maybe conservatism is safe, but if I were a perfect man, yubbadubbadubbadubbadubbadoobydoobydoo!
On medical insurance:
It has been established that the Frost’s don’t pay anywhere near the full tab for the private school.
Further, now that the two kids have very severe head injuries, I wonder how long it would take to run through a two million dollar lifetime benefit? Also, is there a line forming in front of the Frost’s home consisting of insurance companies dying to insure those two kids into old age with their brain shunts (whatever) and all.
Under the libertarian, conservative philosophy of charity hilariously espoused by Coulter and Malkin, did either of them take the opportunity to knock on the Frost’s door, since one of them was in the neighborhood, and offer to include the Frost kids on THEIR insurance policies, thus relieving us of the burden?
No, neither did I, for the same reason they didn’t.
Off topic and nothing to do with you …..
But then I didn’t expect Dr. Bill Frist to take the proceeds from his stake in Hospital Corporation of America and offer to pay full freight for Terry Schiavo’s care either.
Even he knew long-distance rhetoric was cheaper. It looked like he gave a crap about Schiavo on the video monitor, but it turned out his eye and head movements were random and revealed little if any brain function.
There is a chance she would be alive today if we had some sort of universal healthcare. If the accountants had been in the giving vein.
Back on topic.
But, as I mentioned upthread, no one seems to know the total medical bills of the Frost’s to date??????????!
“I oppose government-mandated programs because they are so inefficient.”
Well, even some conservative universal heathcare proposals suggest a system somewhat like the Federal Employees healthcare program which offers dozens and dozens of private health insurance policies.
Heck, conservatives in Washington partake of this program. Yes, their employer pays a good part of the premium.
I also wonder about the difference between “mandated” and “mandatory”.
On the efficiency issue, I’ll wager someone besides you is paying for the efficiency of your health insurance plan because, believe me, emergency rooms, doctors, and every other healthcare institution makes up in some way for the underpayments and losses mandated and imposed by the accountants working for your insurance company.
“The left’s argument is an emotional argument only.”
Could be. The right’s argument is a logical, rational argument only.
Turns out we both have half a brain, according to the dancing lady. 😉
farmgirl: Great post. That’s the real debate. I personally believe that if they could afford private schooling at an amount sufficient to pay for health care then they should have chosen health care.
Here are the facts as we know them: 1) The Frosts currently pay $500/year for Graeme. We don’t know what they paid before the accident.
2) Ms. Frost “recently” (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-te.frosts10oct10,0,2541063.story?page=2)
priced health insurance at $1,200 per month. We do not know how much it was before the accident. Presumably much less.
3) The Frosts work part-time. It is not clear whether that is due to the accident or if they always worked part-time. They now earn $45k-$50k per year by their own admission. They wouldn’t let the Baltimore Sun see their return. We do not know how much they made before the accident.
4) They apparently (because I could find not contradiction) own three vehicles and two properties. The properties are of significant value but we do not know the age or condition of them. One happens to be a Volvo SUV.
Under the facts as we know them, there are more questions than answers. It is far from clear that the Frosts are the proper poster family for SCHIP.
bc: Ignore my points addressed by you and others.
Also, I apologize for the spelling and grammar mistakes in my comment.
Finally, I agree with you that the Founders would be dumbfounded if they arose from their graves and discussed the United States of America, say, on Charlie Rose tomorrow night. But I don’t know that anyone could guess what they would be dumbounded about.
I think we’d all be surprised.
In fact, I think they were so dumbfounded two weeks after they finished haggling over the language in the founding documents that they thought to themselves, “Maybe we should have made that language even more general, because reality has already outrun us”.
John: Lol. I just saw the dancing lady yesterday. But you are proving my point. We are now in a polite, appropriate debate. We should be debating the best way to provide health care for the country. If one side puts up the Frosts, or Bill Frist, or Terry Schiavo as Exhibit A, the other side should be able to comment on Exhibit A without being called a troll.
For me, I am in favor of HSA’s. They are relatively low cost and they play to human nature. Human nature is to not have to pay anything. HSA’s provide a low cost alternative. By allowing you to “roll-over” any contributions not spent, it gives an incentive to not spend all the dough. Free government health care = “oh, I have a headache, I need an MRI.” I would wager that if everyone had an HSA, our crises would be over.
As for someone else paying for my plan, no. Just me. Self-employed. Just paid an insane amount of taxes. Part of me wants free health care. But the other part knows that those taxes would eventually just go up to pay for it and beyond. Like to infinity and beyond.
Free government health care = “oh, I have a headache, I need an MRI.”
wait… when did they change the definition of “free” healthcare to mean patients get to choose the kind of tests they get ?
farmgirl: Wow. I don’t know how to respond. I think you are saying they had a choice but I cannot comment on their choice. The beauty of our country is that we have choices. Some would have us not live by the choices we make. I don’t agree.
We really don’t know the exact choice the Frosts made but from the outside it looks like they in fact had a choice. It looks they chose wrong.
It reminds me of a trial I heard of where the plaintiff tried cleaning his chimney with a brush attached to copper pipe. He had made the contraption. he appeared at trial missing two limbs looking truly pathetic. The jury, however, judged him by his choice. No liability on the hardware store that sold him the parts.
Here, Graeme and his sister are truly worthy of our sympathy. However, his parents apparently made a choice not unlike climbing on the roof with a copper pipe and hoping you don’t hit the power line.
Now, if the Frosts truly had no choice by any reasonable definition, then I would not be opposed to the state helping out. But that is not clear. It appears just the opposite. I think it is entirely appropriate for me to be skeptical given the properties they own, the three cars they drive, etc.
cleek: Just wait! My point is that the incentive is to push for the most care possible. In reality, free health care means you’ll have to wait for some insane amoutn of time for needed care a la Great Britain. Right now we have the uninsured going to the ER for colds. The incentive is to get it for free. HSA’s turn that around. HSA’s combined with an auto-like mandatory provision might just be the ticket.
“Free government health care = ‘Oh, I have a headache, I need an MRI’.”
Now, that’s hilarious!
That would be like me saying, “Oh, I’ve had this headache for months and blood is streaming from my ears, but my high deductible and the rollover feature of my HSA disincentivize me from seeing the doctor just yet.”
I’m emotionally distraught that your logic and rationality fail to describe the real world.
Because if it does describe the real world, could you please convince my headachy mother to avail herself of Medicare’s low-cost services and see a doctor more than once every 20 years?
I hope I didn’t prove your point again. Because if that happens one more time, I’m going to be incentivized to stop arguing altogether. 😉
John:
o.k., trying . . . real . . . hard . . there, I won’t say it. So I throw out a little humor. At least you recognized it as such.
I believe if we weren’t bailing out all those that don’t have insurance but could actually afford it we would be able to provide more services for the truly needy.
And my point wasn’t that if we had free healthcare we would get MRI’s for headaches. It’s that many if not most people would tend to want more care rather than less making the needed services that much harder to get. Your mom may be a case in point.
As for your other comments, I’m laughing (really am). I think I have reached a logical paradox trying to understand your emotional distress and how that disincentivized a liberal because that is inherently contradictory . . anyway. And I’m taking back any comments that lead you to think that liberals are ONLY emotional. I was trying to say that while there are plently of logical arguments to be had, the liberals (using that term way-too-overly-inclusviely and generally) put up an emotional argument like the Frosts rather than debate the point. That’s why you get the “child shield” arguments from the right. You are disproving my point by appealing to logic, you liberal dog [said in pirate talk like “scurvy dog”]!!
My point is that the incentive is to push for the most care possible.
no it isn’t.
with my current plan, health care is essentially free (less a $10 co-pay, BFD). why don’t i go to the Dr for every little thing? because it eats 2 hours out of my day. because going to the Dr’s and sitting in the waiting room with all the really sick people sucks. because i know the Dr is going to tell me “it’s probably a virus” or “try icing it” or “stay off it for a week”.
and i’m perfectly average and representative in every way.
In reality, free health care means you’ll have to wait for some insane amoutn of time for needed care a la Great Britain.
no it doesn’t. besides, i already have to wait four to six weeks to get an appointment with the only allergist my insurance plan covers. it’s enough to keep me from making appointments at all.
hey wait… knowing i’ll have to wait an insane amount of time dis-inclines me from making appointments in the first place. and since i am, as i said before, perfectly representative and average in all ways, longer wait times for appointments for non-urgent matters would tend to decrease the number of appointments people make.
so there.
Right now we have the uninsured going to the ER for colds.
damn them!
HSA’s turn that around.
no they don’t. if you can’t afford monthly payments for insurance, how you can afford those high deductibles when you end up in the emergency room ?
bc:
What an idiot that guy cleaning his chimney was!
If he had won that suit, I’ll bet his neighbors and their families would have rushed up to their roofs dressed in chain mail and lassoed those powerlines with belays made of paperclips and sued Office Depot.
I sure hope the taxpayer didn’t have to pay for attending to his wounds. In fact, I hope his health insurer punished him further by raising his premium beyond his private ability to pay. And then I hope Medicaid turned him down, too.
He ought to go live on the streets of Calcutta where the legless scoot around on skateboards and waggle their stumps at the tourists, who, if they are Ann Coulter or Michelle Malkin, could get another incentivizing shot in by tipping his skateboard over.
That’ll teach him. I’ll bet he’ll never gird his stumps and get up on that roof again. And I hope he’s able to drag himself out of his house if he has a chimney fire, although a cauterizing of the stumps might make him fully comprehend his stupid behavior.
I’ll bet a chimney sweep would take one look at that guy and immediately double his fee because he has Edward Stumpylegs right where he wants him.
Why doesn’t that guy go to the hardware store and get some copper tubing and duct tape and make himself some legs, like the Founders stiputated?
Just kidding. See, I can’t tell whether I’m being over-emotional or I’m extending your arguments to their logical, rational end.
Question: Aren’t the uninsured charged when they visit the emergency room for their snivels because your insurance company and mine paid little more than cost in their reimbursements (grouped together socialistly, but privately, for bulk consideration) for our medical care, which we delayed until things were really expensive, given our deductibles?
“Your Mom may be a case in point.”
Your point, or my point? My point was that medical services of all sorts are available to her at fairly low cost, including her MediGap coverage, but she feels no incentive at all to see the doctor, let alone demand an MRI for breast cancer in time.
Of course, she wouldn’t call the fire department if SHE burst into flames and the firemen were offering $1000 bonuses for self-combustion.
Why? Good-old American self-reliance.
Arguing with Cleek and me is like trying to clean out your chimney by lighting a fire in the fireplace and pouring gasoline and throwing dynamite down the flue. That ulcer you’re experiencing may or may not be covered, depending upon whether it was a pre-existing condition or not.
😉
“Stiputated”?
Yes! Paragraph 14, sentence six, in the Constitution. It’s been willfully misspelled ever since.
“Why? Good-old American self-reliance.”
That is a cultural thing. I think it is rather odd to invoke it as a cost saving measure while simultaneously insisting on government provided health care…
cleek: I just said HSA’s turn the incentive around. I didn’t say they were the entire answer. I think I said that they would provide extra dough for the truly needy if those that could afford them were required to carry them. But, since they are a lot like an IRA in the savings aspect, maybe you’re right. Maybe nobody would save. We’d spend all the money on aromatherapy.
And cite me the proof that you are perfectly average!!!
I thought I’d stay out of this one because, IMO, the best possible way to respond to folks like Malkin and Coulter is to ignore them. Since the discussion has broadened a bit, I guess I’ll chime in.
I don’t think Coulter is an act at all. I think if she was not restrained by the law from doing so, she would shoot people she disagreed with down in the street like dogs. I think she would, personally, light the fuse on the bomb that blew up the NYTimes building. Far from being a “small government” person, she’d be delighted to see the full force of government used to crush anyone she disagrees with.
Ann Coulter is as close to a Nazi as you’re going to get in this country without shaving your head, moving to Idaho, and joining the Aryan Nation. And no, due to the fact that she means every word she says, she’s not very funny.
In short, to confine myself solely to clinical terms, I think she’s a murderous, obsessively enraged sociopath. I don’t find her amusing, and if she or folks that share her views ever find their way to expressing their bloodlust in the real world, I’ll be happy to meet them blow for blow. Conservatives aren’t the only ones who know how to shoot a gun.
Regarding the health insurance issue:
Folks upthread have already corrected the more egregious bits of misinformation you held regarding the Frosts. I’ll just add a couple of other observations.
The Frosts weren’t facing “broken arms, childbirth, braces”. They were facing two kids in comas with extreme, traumatic, system-wide injury, followed by months and years, possibly lifetimes, of remedial therapy.
I hate to break it to you, but your $2MM lifetime benefit wouldn’t even make a dent in that. You’d probably burn through it in a couple of months. Maybe a few weeks.
I don’t know what your neighbors, church, or family are like, but for most folks that kind of situation is out of reach of those resources as well. Far, far, far out of reach.
If you were to face the situation the Frosts faced, you’d be presented with the choice of sticking to your anti-government guns and watching your kids die, or sucking up to the nanny state teat. Just like them.
Were I you considering the Frosts situation, I’d get down on my knees and thank God that my biggest problem was a $399/mo insurance payment, and then say no more about it. I’m not you, of course, so you can do whatever you like.
Thanks –
bc: If one side puts up the Frosts, or Bill Frist, or Terry Schiavo as Exhibit A, the other side should be able to comment on Exhibit A without being called a troll.
I think it’s just fine to look at the publicly available facts. What I don’t think is fine is what happened with Terri Schiavo or the Frosts, where one side made up a whole lot of lies to attack the other side.
Again, can you answer my question (I don’t believe you did): If you were in the same position the Frosts were in, unable to afford health insurance, and two of your children were seriously injured in a car accident – requiring long-term care, which they wouldn’t get from the local emergency room – what would you do? Assume S-CHIP is available and you’re qualified for it (as the Frosts were). Your children need help.
What do you do?
Sebastian: I think it is rather odd to invoke it as a cost saving measure while simultaneously insisting on government provided health care…
Government-funded health care is a cost-saving measure: and having health care not dependent on your employer (and affordable if you’re self-employed and starting a new business) is the best impetus to good old British self-reliance. (We borrowed it, since you weren’t using it.)
I do wonder how it is that all these decadent, self-reliance-lacking Europeans manage to avoid spending all their days crowded into their doctors’ waiting rooms trying to get their share of free MRIs, vaccinations, and colonoscopies.
self-reliance-lacking Europeans
No lack of self reliance IMO. At least on the dental front they are extremely self-reliant: as in pliers and superglue. I really hope that strong spirits are involved with the pliers…
And while Canadians aren’t exactly Europeans their health system is close enough for me to snark: They’re not spending all their days crowded into their doctors’ waiting rooms because it’s a physical impossibility to cram all those people in there for 18 weeks each. (This isn’t a GP visit but specialists or diagnostic and surgical procedures after getting in to see the GP.)
Quiet around here and I was starting to feel bad for bc. May as well offer a fresh target. 😉
OCSteve: “…because it’s a physical impossibility to cram all those people in there for 18 weeks each.”
From the cited press release: “The Fraser Institute is an independent research and educational organization based in Canada. Its mission is to measure, study, and communicate the impact of competitive markets and government intervention on the welfare of individuals.”
What more credible citation could there be, then to the solemn authority of a press release?
And from a source highly respected for its objectivity, known to have no axe to grind on the matter.
Who could argue that we shouldn’t just take their word for it?
The Institute:
There’s more there.
The problem here is that more liberal types may be apt to be skeptical of cites of work from a source that’s all about libertarian solutions and analyses, and libertarians/conservatives are apt to be skeptical of cites of work from a source that’s all about governmental solutions and initiatives, and the like.
Naturally, just arguing the facts is best, but we also have to agree on those first.
(That is, those who want to argue remotely productively do.)
But thanks for at least introducing figures, however arguable, since that’s more than bc has brought so far, at least in terms of rigor, rather than enthusiasm.
“Government-funded health care is a cost-saving measure: and having health care not dependent on your employer (and affordable if you’re self-employed and starting a new business) is the best impetus to good old British self-reliance.”
Health care funded by the government and health care not dependent on your employer are not in fact identical propositions.
And as I have maintained for years–I’m all for a government minimum system with most people encouraged to go outside the government system.
In fact, since the US government ALREADY spends almost as much on health care (in percentage of GDP) as most European countries, it is odd that we don’t have at least that already. It would seem to me that the government could be at the very least covering uninsured poor people with the amount of money that other countries use to cover everyone. (This suggests to me that the vast efficiency gains to be had by the US government taking over are rather overstated). Interestingly, since the US government takes less in taxes, this strongly suggests that the US already spends more as a percentage of its budget on medical expenses than most European countries, but I haven’t actually confirmed that anywhere.
No lack of self reliance IMO. At least on the dental front they are extremely self-reliant: as in pliers and superglue. I really hope that strong spirits are involved with the pliers . . .
Meanwhile, true to form, American dentists are getting richer and richer while fewer and fewer Americans are getting any dental care at all.
We really don’t know the exact choice the Frosts made but from the outside it looks like they in fact had a choice. It looks they chose wrong.
THerefore, let’s punish their children.
John: Of course I’m talking globally. I have relatives apparently like your mother that wouldn’t go to the doc if their right leg were falling off. However, we often weigh going to the doctor because of our deductible. We err on the side of safety for our children, but I can think of two or three times we would have gone in the past year and did not because of cost. I waited until I had what I thought was the flu for two months before getting diagnosed with mild asthma due to my daughter’s new cat!!
And I’m sorry I didn’t clarify that my stumpy legs story was not an analogy. I was only REMINDED of stumpy legs.
But, if we use Stumpy as an analogy . . .:
Although i would not be opposed to providing government benefits to Stumpy despite his stupidity (so long as he was truly needy), I would also not put up Stumpy as the poster child for why we need to provide free health care. Here we have a really bonehead move by the parents creating a need for help. I don’t think the Frosts were needy before the accident. They climbed up on their roof with copper pipe.
Now, given where they are, if they truly are needy it’s a different question. I hear the left arguing that they had no choice but to clean the flue with a copper pipe!! There was absolutely nothing they could have done short of selling their Volvo to pay for health insurance. I’m not sold, although I still have an open mind.
As for the ER question, I think the problem is the uninsured obtaining services then not paying at all. Yes, we may get a break on the ER charges vs. the “cash” price because we are insured, but we also pay the cost of all those uninsured who do not pay. And if you have to provide services as a matter of law, the costs for all of us go up.
russell: Sorry, I didn’t think I had not answered your question. Your question presumes: a) the Frosts couldn’t afford health care insurance BEFORE the accident. I do not assume that at all. But assuming for the purpose of argument, certainly I would apply. I don’t fault the Frosts for applying now, but I would certainly kick myself very hard for not having insurance in the first place.
Now, taking the assumption out of the equation, I in fact bought insurance. If I didn’t make what I do, I would have gotten another job before going without. Maybe I had my learning experience earlier (daughter had to have open heart surgery at age 3). Don’t think I talk glibly without thinking.
By the way, I qualified for WIC around the time that daughter was operated on and probably qualified for government-subsidized health care. I bought my own (actually paid the extra $500-600 my employer required for family). The surgery was a huge hit for me at the time ($7-8k out of pocket). We all make choices.
If the Frosts truly did not have a choice pre-accident, then fine, they should have gotten help. Again, it isn’t clear to me that was the case.
And, yes, I do thank God I can afford insurance. My basic point is this: if that was truly not the case with the Frosts, then fine. But if they could have afforded it (as it still appears to me they could have) then they are not the proper poster family for SCHIP. Almost every contrary argument so far today starts with the assumption they could not afford it. That is an assumption that is not reasonable with the facts as known (although, again, I hold out the possibility that it could have been that way).
Now, given where they are, if they truly are needy it’s a different question.
OK, let’s run some numbers.
Mrs. Frost hit some black ice while driving and two of her kids ended up in the hospital with severe traumatic injuries for more than five months.
Five months is 150 days, more or less.
I’ve been trying to pin down a hard number for ICU cost per day, and it looks to be, conservatively, north of $2K a day. The figures I’ve found are from a few years ago, it’s probably more now, but let’s say $2K a day for an ICU bed.
Two kids, $2K per kid per day, 150 days. 2 x 2 x 150 = $600K, purely for the ICU bed. No surgery, no special medications, no physical therapy, no physician consultation. Just an ICU bed.
Graeme had to learn to walk and speak again. His sister requires ongoing therapy — from 2004 until now, and probably continuing for years — to help her deal with the results of her brain damage.
Even though your post was signed “John”, I’m assuming this is bc again.
Your (bc’s) insurance has a 2 million dollar lifetime limit. You criticize the Frosts because, unlike you, they didn’t have insurance coverage. Assuming that that is, in fact, true. It’s unclear to me from the coverage I’ve seen.
What I want to point out here is that, in the face of what the Frosts were confronting, your coverage is basically nothing. You’d burn through it in a few months, max.
The Frosts could have sold their house. They could have sold the commercial property that provides them with some income. I guess they could have sold their cars. They’d have nothing left, not a dime, and not even come close to paying for their kids’ care.
They are, in fact, truly needy.
You, bc, would be a couple of months ahead of them, and then you’d be selling your house and your car. And you’d not even come close to paying for your kids’ care. A patch of black ice, and you’re broke, no home, and no chance in hell of ever getting insured again.
Are you getting the message?
I’m glad you were able to find a family policy that will cover the bases for your family for $399/mo, as long as nothing really bad happens. Maybe the Frosts could have found something like that and just decided to blow it off so they could eat filet mignon and play the ponies. Maybe a plan like that just wasn’t available to them. I don’t know, and neither do you, so it’s foolish to speculate about it.
In any case, the only difference between them and you is that you are luckier. One patch of black ice, and you’re in the same boat.
Your $399/mo insurance policy is basically one tiny finger in a big, big dike.
And that, my friend, is the point.
Sh*t happens. If you’re lucky and/or rich, maybe you have the resources to weather the storm. If you’re neither, you need help.
What happened to the Frosts could happen to any one of us. That’s why, in most places in the world that have the kind of resources we do, folks just pony up and make sure that nobody has to suffer like hell if they happen to draw the short straw.
And, as it turns out, in virtually all of those places, folks are, on the whole, better off, while paying less for it.
Those are the facts.
Thanks –
russell: Yes that we me. I was addressing it to John. As you say, we don’t know. I am only saying IF they could afford it they should have. You (and others) keep talking about now versus before the accident. I am talking exlcusivley before the accident. Now, I don’t have a problem with them getting help. But please dont’ point to Graeme and say “He’s so hurt you unfeeling conservative dingbat you can’t criticize the Frosts” even in a POLICY debate.
As for my coverage, saving the taxpayers $2Million is no small thing, even though you think it is. I said that in my earlier post-anyone exhausting the limits of coverage and meeting reasonable income requirements should be covered, after you have performed your duty as a citizen.
And as for the black ice thing, that happened in a lesser sense to us. Read my earlier post. That would have been economically catastrophic had we not had insurance.
So if you don’t know, Russell, why are you criticising me for simply saying they should have had insurance at the time of the acccident if they could have afforded it?
And I am not totally convinced others are better off where there is universal insurance paid for by the state. Why do they come here for services? Maybe you want to go to Cuba, but I don’t! My daughter had one of the best surgeons in the world.
So if you don’t know, Russell, why are you criticising me for simply saying they should have had insurance at the time of the acccident if they could have afforded it?
I don’t know if they had insurance or not. Do you?
If they did not, I don’t know if that was because they simply could not afford any of the available plans, or not. Do you?
If you don’t know, your point is academic. And, in light of the actual damage they had to deal with, your point is also academic.
I appreciate that you’d like to save us all two million bucks, but the Frosts may not have had that option. I don’t know, and apparently neither do you. You’re making assumptions about them based on your own experience, which may or may not be relevant, at all.
And I am not totally convinced others are better off where there is universal insurance paid for by the state.
I invite you to look up the percentage spent on health care in any other OECD nation, either per capita or as a percentage of GNP, and compare to us. Then, I invite you to look up how any OECD nation compares with us as regards any measure of public health that you care to choose.
You may then draw your own conclusions.
Thanks –
russell: Actually, it looks like they had CHIP insurance at the time. So, in light of that fact, the only debate would be whether we should be providing insurance to those that may be able to afford it anway.
I agree that picking apart the Frosts personally is not the same under these facts and my criticism is much muted if not gone entirely since they did obtain insurance for their kids. I understood they did not have insurance and my arguments were regarding what appeared to be their choice to be uninsured. That was apparently not the case and I stand corrected.
I still think that they are fair game to an extent. For example, I think it is a legitmate debate whether people with their resources should be receiving health care assistance. But since I don’t know their exact situation, I can’t fully comment. I still think trashing those that question whether they should have access to government provided insurance or the extent of that access is wrong. But I stand corrected on my main points.
KCinDC: I do wonder how it is that all these decadent, self-reliance-lacking Europeans manage to avoid spending all their days crowded into their doctors’ waiting rooms trying to get their share of free MRIs, vaccinations, and colonoscopies.
Hey, being decadent is hard work, you know. It’s not all lazing around on a bed of peeled grapes drinking freshly-squeezed mango juice and having wild sex.
More seriously: bc, thanks for your contributions to this debate.
Somewhere up thread, someone mentioned the fact that they had not taken their children in when they might have, because of insurance, and I’ve certainly heard stories about that all the time, but I wonder if anyone feels comfortable in a country where taking care of children is a matter of rolling the dice. While no one said ‘yeah, that’s the kind of system I like’, the absence of anyone mentioning how problematic that it makes me think that a lot of the problems of the health care and insurance system have been internalized to such an extent that an attempt to really solve the problems would fail.
lj: the absence of anyone mentioning how problematic that it makes me think that a lot of the problems of the health care and insurance system have been internalized to such an extent that an attempt to really solve the problems would fail.
I think any serious attempt to really solve the problems would fail regardless of how many individuals find it problematic. The beneficiaries of the system, the health insurance companies, have considerable lobbying power to prevent any serious legislative attempt to set up a decent health care system. With government alternating between a right-wing party and a far right-wing party, and with the electorate having no way to vote in a left-wing party, there is no reason for politicians to ignore powerful lobbyists in favor of the people who vote for them. Add in the fact that right now US elections are basically screwed anyhow, and I think that – like the UK in the 1930s – the US would need something as massive as WWII to overcome the entrenched resistance of money, right-wing government, and rigged elections.
OTOH, if the US goes on as is – that is, if the 2008 presidential election is rigged like the last two, putting some RNC insider or son of an insider into power for the next 8 years, then I think the US is likely heading for a crash of some kind in the 2020s. This isn’t schadenfreude. It’s an extremely disturbing thought.
Shave her bald!
Shakespeare’s Sister popped her cork over an article in Maxim picking on Ann Coulter’s looks and wrote the editors a letter listing a whole lot of more important things about Coulter that need picking on. Shakes is beautiful when she’s angry. But I’m n…
Totally agree with your analysis of Coulter and Malkin. The other thing about Malkin that’s annoying is that she seems to have the tone of a schoolchild in a hissy fight all the time… you half expect to hear “i’m rubber, you’re glue…”