…here’s an article from Belmont Club to really sink your mood.
My first thoughts at the news of the Abu Ghraib abuses, the Taguba Report and the Presidential mea culpa which followed was whether posterity would recall the incident in the same way the Christmas Truce in the first year of the Great War is remembered today. The last grasp at enforcing civilized standards of conduct before the brutality of the trenches coarsened men completely. The fraternization of that first December so alarmed the generals that “special precautions were taken during the Christmases of 1915, 1916 and 1917, even to the extent of actually stepping up artillery bombardments” to prevent its recurrence.
The brass didn’t have to worry: it was never to be repeated. After the Somme in the following year, infantrymen on both sides filed saw-teeth into their bayonets to make the thrusts more painful. The history which remembers the Second World War as ‘the Good War’ forgets how four years of fighting transformed Allies that refused to bomb German cities in 1940 into those that planned thousand plane raids on Hamburg and Dresden in 1945 to rain incendiaries on tens of thousands of Western Europeans as policy. There were no reprimands, only medals, for the B-29 crews that incinerated 100,000 civilians in Tokyo in the raid of March 9, 1945. And the sad balance of probability is that Abu Ghraib will be displaced from the front pages by the next terrorist outrage, the next Bali, the next Madrid, the next 9/11 until we find ourselves wondering why it upset us at all.
Remember, Wretchard’s one of the guys who expects us to win, eventually. The only straw that I have to grasp at is that he’s flat-out wrong in his later blanket categorization of the Left, so maybe he’s wrong about things getting much, more worse before they get better…
“Abu Ghraib will be displaced from the front pages by the next terrorist outrage, the next Bali, the next Madrid, the next 9/11 until we find ourselves wondering why it upset us at all. ”
Well, it should still upset us. Because the victims at Abu Ghraib themselves will almost certainly not be the same people who perpetrate the next Bali or Madrid. And Abu Ghraib itself makes the next Bali or Madrid more likely….not in any way more justified, but more likely.
And Abu Ghraib itself makes the next Bali or Madrid more likely….
I disagree. While Abu Ghraib is horrible in our western/liberal thinking, for them over there its a fact of life. Their gov’ts do it on daily basis. Basically, they are not pissed the fact that this has happened, but that this was perpetrated by the infidel against muslims. Its the same old story.
Moe,
Let me just add something about the depressed part. We should not be depressed. Sure, we should be ashamed that some Americans in the uniform conducted themselves the way they did. However, that does not take anything away from us, from our country and from who we are.
At the end of the day, we are still a democracy, we have a judicial system and public hearings. These people will be tried and punished for what they did. That’s what should matter, and not the actions of those few.
“Basically, they are not pissed the fact that this has happened, but that this was perpetrated by the infidel against muslims. Its the same old story.”
One, of course they’re pissed that it happened. Any human being would be pissed.
Second, “we can torture each other, but you can’t torture us!” impulse is especially egregious in the middle east, but it’s not restricted to it. It’s very common if not universal. Our reaction to Oklahoma City is different from what it would be if a middle eastern terrorist killed the name number of people tomorrow. African governments and African Americans were more indignant about Botha’s South Africa than Idi Amin’s Uganda. The Jewish community is more upset by the kid who’s beat up by school bullies because he’s Jewish than the kid who’s beat up by school bullies because he’s scrawny and wears glasses. The murders of Goodwin, Cheney and Schwerner in Philadelphia Mississippi raise more howls of protest than three “ordinary” murders.
It’s understandable. It’s even reasonable, up to a point: If someone is targetted because of a characteristic you share, and not just because people are bastards, then you could be next. (There’s a limit to this–the average Muslim is actually much more threatened by his own government than by Israel or the U.S. But his government and mosque and newspaper are working full time to convince him of the opposite, so….)
Anyway, however unjustified or stupid or atypical this “we can do this to each other, but you can’t do it to us” impulse is, it is real and sincere. People really are more pissed because this was perpetrated by Americans.
“This is Watergate. I am speculating, but I suspect the overriding objective is to keep this scandal from reaching Feith, Boykin, and Cambone.
Both out of loyalty to the men themselves, and because they are too close to the top.”
I posted this at Pandagon; thought I should do so here. If it is only slanderous suspicions, based on rumor etc, I apologize. There was a point in early Watergate when there were only suspicions that the burglary might be connected to CREEP. Nixon crashed on an attempt to protect a certain level of underling.
But the overwhelming din of “only a few bad apples” sounds familiar. The attempt to prevent publication of the photos, the long delay in coming up with a PR response, the lack of discussion of the role of intelligence officers, the attempt to keep it entirely within UCMJ.
Many a President have been seduced and damaged by the thrills of the spooks.
One, of course they’re pissed that it happened. Any human being would be pissed.
I am not so sure about that, given their attitude toward suicide bombers..
This sums it up just right .
Second…
Those analogies are faulty. You have a bunch of people who are prisoners and a bunch of people who have power over those prisoners. Those in power happened to abuse those who are imprisoned. Same old story. Happens in american jails, happens in jails worldwide. That kind of abuse is (unfortunately) prevalent in such situatons. I’ve yet to see proof that this was motivated by religous hatred. The ethnic/religious diversity of our troops speaks for itself as well.
But in any case, that’s irellevant. The fact still remains that this was done by a few individuals and was not a sanctioned policy from the top. As someone who was born (and who still remembers how it was) in a communist state… I gotta say there’s a lot of misconception (held by Americans as well) as to why America is great. US is great not because this kind of horrendous crap doesn’t happen here, no, this kind of stuff you can’t change. Its human nature, and unfortunately as long as there are people you’ll have crime. The great thing about US is its laws and how they are applied and how these acts are viewed and publicized.
Americans do bad things, but while other states sanction these acts or turn a blind eye to them – we do not. That’s precisely won’t makes this country great.
Don’t get me wrong. I was disappointed that this has happened, however, like I said, its human nature. You can’t change it.
People really are more pissed because this was perpetrated by Americans.
I think that those who already hate us, will continue hating us no matter what. Those who admire us for who we are, will continue admiring us for how we handle this.
A little tid bit to support one of my points.
Here’s a photo
of one of the female soldiers who were charged with abusing prisoners. She’s has her arm around and Iraqi boy and both, her and him are smiling. If she hated Iraqis, why would she have such a photo taken? Obviously, there’s no such hate.
As for what happened in prison. As they say: Power corrupts.
Americans do bad things, but while other states sanction these acts or turn a blind eye to them – we do not.
Depends how you define “we”, Stan. You’re right in that the majority of Americans did not sanction these acts once they knew what they entailed – once the photos had shown them.
But the United States military and the current administation did – we know – sanction these acts, turn a blind eye to them, and attempted to deal with the situation by scapegoating junior soldiers.
I think that those who already hate us, will continue hating us no matter what. Those who admire us for who we are, will continue admiring us for how we handle this.
To quote another livejournaler: Dear Citizens of the Earth;
Please judge America by our ideals rather than our actions; and likewise, judge our enemies by their actions rather than their ideals.
Otherwise, we’ll f–k your shit up.
Jes,
But the United States military and the current administation did – we know
We do? Anyway, we all know how you feel about the administration Jes. If the american people fell that this is all Bush fault and these Iraqis were tortured for the sake of oil/halliburton’s gain/damage to environment/Ashcroft, then he won’t get re elected. That’s the beauty.
You’re still missing the point. We, as Americans,
1) Are against what took place in that prison.
2) Empowered politically to strike down those who we feel are responsible for what took place.
That’s the beauty of America. Again, we know how you feel about Bush. That’s fine. He’s an individual, too. The beauty of it is that if you get enough of your buddies to vote for his opponent – you can make him disappear from the political stage.
Please judge America by our ideals rather than our actions; and likewise, judge our enemies by their actions rather than their ideals.
Eh? Are actions have been just fine. As for their ideals… Which ones do you hold in high esteem?
“these Iraqis were tortured for the sake of oil/halliburton’s gain/damage to environment/Ashcroft”
What is the old joke about choosing between conspiracy and incompetence?
I don’t see this as real complicated. Deliberately vague objectives generated deliberately vague orders. These orders, after being mangled 5 or 6 steps down the chain of command, and with intentionally light supervision, generated an out of control situation.
“Find the bad guys”
“Cooperate with intelligence and interrogation”
“Soften up the targets”
These kids in Baghdad thought they were following orders. In fact, my bet is their superiors all up the chain thought they were following orders. Now the law is clear, when orders contradict previous higher priority orders(phrasing this inaccurately), the soldier’s duty is clear. So we can get these bad apples.
But I always thought it was the responsibility of command to try and ensure that these situations where grunts can get confused don’t arise.
And oh yeah, when orders are deliberately vague, the purpose is often to ensure that FUBAR doesn’t flow uphill. Kinda like firebreaks.
Stan: Eh? Our actions have been just fine.
Torturing innocent Iraqis in Abu Ghraib prison is “just fine”? (To take the first and most obvious example where American actions were, in most people’s eyes, plainly not “just fine” – though if you read LGF comment strand, you’d never think so.)
As for their ideals… Which ones do you hold in high esteem?
Actually, Stan, I was citing someone else who was paraphrasing Harold Nicolson: “We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts.”
I’m sure that you can, with a little effort, discover that people in other nations than the US also have ideals – of themselves, of their nation. They no more live up to them than the US does. It is easier to be aware of what another nation does than of what its ideals are: as Harold Nicolson expressed in pithy aphorism.
So, no, Stan: I’m not going to spend time on google digging up non-Americans expressing high ideals: you can do that yourself, or not, just as you choose.
stan ls sez: This sums it up just right
too bad one can’t draw one’s own comic strip in those comments… picture this:
strip 1: march 31 newspaper headline: “Mercenaries’ Corpses Mutilated”
Man In Cow-Boy Hat: ‘The worst atrocity!!’
Yankee #2: ‘Unspeakable savagery!!’
strip 2: april 30 newspaper headline: “Torture in Abu Ghraib”
Man In Cow-Boy Hat: ‘Ha! That’s no worse than my frat hazing!’
Yankee #2: ‘God bless America! Can I get 8×10’s?’
Yes, arabs and americans are so different… hardly the same species….
“…for them over there….”
There are words for those who think in these terms.
Jes, Gary,
Torturing innocent Iraqis in Abu Ghraib prison is “just fine”?
Once again you are missing the point. Our actions as a nation, not as individiuals. Obviously, no country in world can claim that each and every single individual citizen is an angel. I welcome you to claim otherwise.
I think you need to go back to my first post.
There are words for those who think in these terms.
Thanks for not disputing my point.
Our actions as a nation, not as individiuals.
Stan, think about it. I don’t know how old you were when you first went to another country (I was 14). But I was told by my mom, and very firmly, not to forget that the people in the country I was visiting would get an impression of my country from me: that I should be on my best behavior because I wouldn’t just be judged as myself, but as a representative of my country. (Which may seem to you to be a heavy load to lay on an 14-year-old, but thinking what I was like at 14, I can’t say I blame her.)
I know a Reservist in Iraq: she’s a good soldier and a good person and I can’t bear to think what she’s going to think of these damn photos. (The last I heard from her was that KBR had just cut off all non-essential e-mail access for the next 90 days. She didn’t know why: I can guess.)
But I do know that she takes her responsibility as a representative of the US, as a soldier in the occupying army, very damned seriously: even when she’s scared to death, she makes a point of trying to act friendly, to meet people’s eyes, to wave and smile and behave like someone you would want to have patrolling your street, armed and dangerous. I’m very proud to know her, and I hope she comes back safe.
Now, think about this: what the soldiers of an occupying army do as soldiers is seen as an action of the nation by the country being occupied. It’s unavoidable. Even if this were “a few bad apples” – a face-saving fantasy that looks less and less likely – the Taguba report made it clear that the whole structure of Abu Ghraib prison was rotten. The two civilian contractors whom he specifically named as implicated were, apparently, still working at Abu Ghraib until the news broke. The command structure did not appear to be interested in cleaning up the mess until the photographs came out: it was not the sin that seems to have bothered them, but the crime of being found out.
Further, it is looking more and more horribly likely (read these) that mistreating the Iraqi prisoners was not merely a result of bad management at the prison, but was indeed authorized: “the Procedure 15 inquiries recommended by the Taguba report didn’t start up until after the Pentagon knew that incriminating photos were about to become public”; “the Pentagon actively decided it didn’t want legal oversight at Abu Ghraib”; Rumsfeld’s public outrage appears to be more focussed on the publication of the photos than on what they portray: and the decision to send the commander of the Guantanamo Bay prison camps to take over Abu Ghraib, and the decision to send Negroponte, the ambassador who ignored and denied atrocities in the Honduras, to be the US Ambassador – these last two decisions are at best tone-deaf to public perception, because what they look like is that the US government isn’t worried about committing atrocities: it’s worried about being found out.
Yes, what American soldiers do in an American detention center, on duty, with the consent of their superiors – is done by America. And so far, the Bush administration hasn’t appeared to be all that concerned with stopping it.
Jes,
Stan, think about it. I don’t know how old you were when you first went to another country (I was 14).
I don’t know if you’ll find this relevant, but I was born, lived and went to school in a totalitarian state till the age of 11, until we came here as refugees.
But I do know that she takes her responsibility as a representative of the US, as a soldier in the occupying army, very damned seriously: even when she’s scared to death, she makes a point of trying to act friendly, to meet people’s eyes, to wave and smile…
Your friend sounds like a great person, and you’ll agree with me that the actions of those few bad apples simply do not take away from her karma. Her individual qualities are in no way affected by the less desirable qualities of others. Now, when we talk about a country, such as ours, we are talking about a system. And the system works. Fine, we’ve failed on several levels, but in the end the system will correct the problem.
but in the end the system will correct the problem.
assuming the problem’s not systematic, you mean.
I don’t know if you’ll find this relevant, but I was born, lived and went to school in a totalitarian state till the age of 11, until we came here as refugees.
Well, it means you’ve had a totally different upbringing from me. It could be relevant: I can understand a refugee being fiercely grateful to the country which took him in: but blind unreasoning loyalty is not required.
Your friend sounds like a great person, and you’ll agree with me that the actions of those few bad apples simply do not take away from her karma. Her individual qualities are in no way affected by the less desirable qualities of others.
Of course not, in my eyes. I know her as person. But an Iraqi whose brother was raped by an American soldier in Abu Ghraib, who saw photographs of naked prisoners on all fours being led around on a leash by an American soldier – whose mother was harnessed “like a donkey” – who was himself in Abu Ghraib and suffered torture – is this Iraqi going to think: “This soldier was not one of the people who harmed me” (in fact, if the prisoners were hooded, this Iraqi isn’t going to know who committed torture and who didn’t) or “This soldier is the representative of the country that jailed and tortured myself, my brother, my mother, my son – and then tried to cover it up?”
Now, when we talk about a country, such as ours, we are talking about a system. And the system works. Fine, we’ve failed on several levels, but in the end the system will correct the problem.
I hope so. Roll on November.
assuming the problem’s not systematic, you mean.
We’ll find out, won’t we?
According to the Red Cross, this was institutionalized torture. How far will the Pentagon be willing to clean up its act?
Jes,
It could be relevant: I can understand a refugee being fiercely grateful to the country which took him in: but blind unreasoning loyalty is not required.
Thanks for your kind understanding. Surely, *that* has to be it. Couldn’t be anything else, but blind unreasoning loyalty.
I wonder… If we were in agreement on everything, how would you spin my background? Would you claim that, I, as someone who’s familiar with living in a totalitarian regime have extra credibility when identifying the current administration as a junta? Hmm.. Nah, you wouldn’t.
Stan, I apologize. I was over the line in attributing your political thinking to your background as a refugee. I had no right to do that, and I hope that you will accept my apology.
However, yes, I would characterize any support for the Bush administration now, after 3.5 years of plunging from one disaster to another, as “blind unreasoning loyalty”. But I had no right to make what must have looked like a snide jab at your background (though it honestly was not intended as such), since I believe that of anyone who’s still planning to vote Bush in November.
Jes,
Stan, I apologize.
Its cool 😉
since I believe that of anyone who’s still planning to vote Bush in November
Fair enough, since words like blind and unreasoning come to mind when I think of liberals… At least we have something in common.
Everything They’ve Told You Is A Lie
Um,someone with a real name, and rank, Bruce Rolston at Flit. Someone who pretentiously blathers.
There’s a choice there. By all means, go for the person who is too cowardly to stand up for their opinions. And whose analyses have been more accurate? Useful info there, too.
One could go for the pretentious, anonymous, cowardly, person who blathers, but pretends real hard.
Who knows which is right?