© Eric Martin, Inc. All Rights Reserved. "Gary Farber Threadetron 3000" and "Gary Farber" are trademarks of Eric Martin, Inc.
A little something for the weekend.
I assume that my Supreme and Eternal Overlord (aka hilzoy) will do the right thing and live blog the debate tonight while I’m busy carousing to the wee hours and publius is rediscovering the wonders of the stone age down in Waterworld Houston. But on the off chance that she neglects you, poor readers, you can use this thread as a debate discussion stand in.
Otherwise, this thread shall revert to its original form and purpose as a standard issue Gary Farber Threadetron 3000*
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You assume all risk in your use the Gary Farber Threadetron 3000
Possible side effects of the use of the Gary Farber Threadetron 3000 include sentence word omissions.
Why should Hilzoy bother live blogging the debate. Haven’t you heard that John McCain has already declared victory? We all know that McCain breathes honor and honesty, so we can just take his word for it.
do not taunt Gary Farber Threadetron 3000.
Open thread mode:
To follow up on Thullen’s recommendation of Aretha as a cure for all ills, I’m currently listening to a mix of Caetano Veloso and Kurt Elling.
Lively, positive, and soothing in the best way. Takes the edge right off of the blatherings of the House Republicans.
In a couple of years, most of those guys will be a footnote. Beauty endures.
My wife and I are heading to a friend’s surprise 90th birthday party later. Our friend is a remarkable guy: early-in-life screwup, later a clever inventor, an elegant raconteur with excellent taste in wine (and a deep cellar). Subject of a recent book about his WWII experiences.
In short, a straight up, old school man of the world.
I may have to miss the debate.
Thanks –
I may have to miss the debate.
But russell, you’ll miss out on the debate of the Century: Obama will taunt McCain until St. John d’BBQ explodes in rage and attempts to bite Obama’s ear off ala Mike Tyson. This dastardly act will be foiled by the height difference between them, leaving McCain with a mouthfull of cloth torn from the shoulder of Obama’s suit.
Do not ask Gary Farber Threadetron 3000 direct questions.
Xanax and Mrs. Xanax are hosting a little debate-watching pizza party tonight so we’re hoping that, for the safety of all, the Gary Farber Threadetron 3000 will be an effective deterrent in the very likely event Putin rears his head into our neighborly American air space during the debate. Especially in the very unlikely event Her Highness and Mightiness Lady Hilzoy Queen of the Blogosphere is not protecting us with the force-field of her live-blog light-saber.
As my five year old son says: “Go Get ’em Brocco!”
But russell, you’ll miss out on the debate of the Century: Obama will taunt McCain until St. John d’BBQ explodes in rage and attempts to bite Obama’s ear off ala Mike Tyson. This dastardly act will be foiled by the height difference between them, leaving McCain with a mouthfull of cloth torn from the shoulder of Obama’s suit.
A clear win for McCain. There’s nothing elitist about chewing on an expensive suit…
Two friends and I are heading to Chicago for the weekend to see My Bloody Valentine at the Aragon Ballroom. I’m expecting to be rendered deaf at this show and will be sorely disappointed if I am not.
There’s nothing elitist about chewing on an expensive suit…
ahhh but you haven’t yet heard what happens next:
As Secret Service agents rush on screen to defuse the situation, in the ensuing melee the rubber mask will accidentally be knocked off of the man playing McCain on stage, revealing:
who will then be dragged kicking off the stage, shouting “and I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren’t for you meddling kids!”
Then on Monday the real John McCain will be found tied up in the basement of Goldman Sach’s secret headquarters on Big Diomede Island!
I’m going to a debate watch hosted by DC Drinking Liberally and DC for Democracy. Judging by the RSVPs, we may have too many people for the space, but perhaps the rain will keep some away. If not, I’ll have to recommend a couple of the larger parties I’m avoiding myself because I’m not in the mood for a mob. The place does have wifi, so I might check out ObWi.
The Times noticed Wasilla’s rape kit charging.
“‘Gary Farber’ are trademarks of Eric Martin, Inc.”
We’ll have to work out some paperwork so I can apply to you for some use of the name, please.
In other news, I saw my prescribed psychiatrist for the first time today (for meds; different guy than my weekly therapist, whom I also saw earlier today), and he seems to think I’m a little crazy.
Not reassuring was his writing me prescriptions in someone else’s name, because he confused us. Many phone calls resulted.
Anyway, we’ll see if my skin falls off, or my genitals cease functioning, or anything else happens, from these meds.
On the plus side was my therapist, along with throwing me a bunch of stuff to work on, and some criticisms, also telling me all sorts of flattering things; I guess part of their technique is lying to build up your ego. That must be it.
And I finished watching season 5 of The Wire the other night. Both lovely and sad. Want more.
And my psychiatrist strongly reminded me of Clark Johnson. A’ight?
I guess this must be “Wire”-ending season for the Netflix folks. I finished a fews days ago, and I know someone else who should be finished in a week or so.
Lame!
Eric Martin, Inc. specifically dislcaims any and all liability arising from your use of the Gary Farber Threadetron 3000.
I take it, then, that it’s safe to assume that this thread is guaranteed to blow my mind?
Two friends and I are heading to Chicago for the weekend to see My Bloody Valentine at the Aragon Ballroom. I’m expecting to be rendered deaf at this show and will be sorely disappointed if I am not.
Phil, check out one of the opening bands: Hopewell.
An old and very good friend, Tyson, is the man tickling the ivories for Hopewell. Pretty good stuff.
Ya know, unless we need a thread copy-edited to oblivion, can we have an open thread that’s not a Gary Farber thread. I know he’s popular and all, but I find most of his posts annoying, at best.
I’m trying to stay in the posting rules, but, jeez, give it a reast, puleeeeeze?
I take it, then, that it’s safe to assume that this thread is guaranteed to blow my mind?
Anytime.
Some of you may enjoy the debate with popcorn; others with beer — or beer and popcorn.
I’m set: After work, I went to Bing’s Bakery and bought one of their awesome peach pies. Mmmmmmmmmmm.
Shit. I just forgot we are out of vanilla ice cream.
I’ll make do.
Pt. I of a two-part comment: “I know he’s popular and all, but I find most of his posts annoying, at best.”
Just feel free to post each week as to how annoying I am, and how much you don’t like me. They’re open threads, after all. Knock yourself out.
Say, you don’t have a cite yet on anyone claiming that EBT cards are Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil, do you?
Or is it possible that you’re determined to Not Like Me because you’re still smarting over this exchange following claims by you made not long after your arrival at ObWi, where after I responded to your initial paen to EBT cards by saying:
That was as regards the embarrassment factor of using the cards, which I’d used on and off for years in bot New York City and Colorado, and after Jes also questioned your initial assertions.
You then responded to Jes in quite unsupportably over-the-top fashion that:
[continued in Pt. II]
I pointed out that you were making a mindreading claim, and initially didn’t press the point that it was an absurdly sweeping mindreading claim, one asserting that you could speak for every person who has ever used an EBT card, that no one has ever or could ever find them humiliating to use, and I gently pointed out instead that:
[continued in Pt. III, sigh, due to Typepad limitations]
Pt. III:
Jes also responded, clearly pissing you off. You then made a couple of fairly reasonable responses, and I got back to you:
You never further responded in that thread, but have since made numerous comments about how dislikeable I am, announced numerous times how you don’t read what I write, asked why anyone ever paid attention to me, and generally sulked like mad time after time when my name gets mentioned.
And you go back now to silly claims that someone said EBT cards were/are “Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil.”
And you keep feeling the need to announce how much you don’t like me. You’re entitled, to be sure. But possibly you might want to consider working on getting past all this? Life is short.
I’ll be playing John Cole’s Debate Drinking Game. With any luck, I won’t be in a coma this time tomorrow.
I promise not to say something drunk, other than “I love you guys, man!”
Heh.
So is the live-blogging the debate thread? Because I’m now waiting to see if Obama brings up Sarah Palin’s requests for earmarks, now that McCain has denounced earmarks again.
Heh.
You know, I don’t think I’d ever want to live there anymore, but I love NYC.
Thanks –
An observation I wanted to share:
As someone who has made a sexist comment or two on these pages, I wanted to note that the two most talked-about interviews of the presidential campaign have been conducted by women.
Campbell Brown devoured the McCain spokesman during the Republican National Convention; I believe it was Tucker Bounds.
Katie Couric gave us a clueless Sarah Palin the other night.
Great work, ladies.
And I finished watching season 5 of The Wire… Want more.
Get used to it. (sob)
Somehow, a 4-year renewal for It’s Always Beavis & Butthead & Co. in Philadelphia doesn’t fill the gap.
Well since this is an open thread: Emily felt good enough to go for a walk yestaerday, about four blocks. And this morning she actually got excited at the sight of three young raccoons up a tree by our deck!
She’s coming to life.
I am addicted to the Wire. paul and i gtend to wait until series are over or almost over and then watch by DVD, so we get two episodes every Friday. The school teacher episodes are almost unwatchable for me: too close to the bone. The rest is fascinating.
PAUL NEWMAN DIES AT 83
Class act. Great liberal. Memorable actor whose iconic performance in “Cool Hand Luke” will live forever.
“And this morning she actually got excited at the sight of three young raccoons up a tree by our deck!”
I got excited just reading that.
I keep getting closer (in my mind at least) to start the process of adopting an English Setter at the Chesapeake rescue. But — and this is a big but — I need to wait until business picks up and I erase any doubt that I am not going to become a foreclosure victim: Not having a backyard would be truly unfair to a dog that needs one, and I’m not about to adopt a dog just to send him back.
The fact that I’ve even thought about not being able to pay my mortgage really, really scares me.
None of the other commenters at ObWi have openly expressed that fear. That’s why I think most of what I’ve read here truly underestimates the outrage and disgust small-town America feels about the $700 Billion Wall Street Bailout.
bedtime: I think commentary here definitely understates the rage.
For my part, I think I grudgingly support the improved Dodd version. But the only reason for that is that I think it will protect people like, say, you, and I’m trying to keep my eyes fixed on that task without being distracted by my desire that every idiot who is in any way responsible for this mess should be put in the stocks. Because if my desire for vengeance helped in any way to prolong the agony for people who weren’t involved, that would be awful.
In unrelated news, the bizarro story of the week:
Words fail.
What troubles me, Hilzoy, is I have what seems to be a fairly manageable mortgage payment — $1,400 — at a good rate, 5.85.
But none of that matters if business doesn’t pick up and I keep making $300 dollars a week. (On commission, that’s the amount we get as a “living wage,” I guess you would call it. The best part is we have to pay that back once we have enough commissions to do so; in other words, we really don’t get paid at all if we don’t make a sale.)
It is all related, but I think the current downturn — that word seems mild — in the economy won’t be corrected by the Wall Street Bailout.
I wish I knew what could get the economy, but people much smarter than I will have to come up with those answers.
P.S. I think breast implants are one invention the world could have done without.
Perhaps I could share an Andy Rooney moment.
The other day at our local Rite Aid I remembered I had been out of Old Spice after shave — yeah, the kind my dad used.
I was in for a pretty big surprise: The distinctive bottle — heavy, and some type of ceramic material — had been replaced by, egads, plastic.
Plastic.
After years and years and years, they now make my Old Spice bottle — the same bottle I used to see on my dad’s dresser when I would swipe some from him, the same bottle my 9-year-old son found distinctive — from plastic.
Another American icon gives into price, progress and plastic.
“Great work, ladies.”
See, the problem here is that now you’re sounding condescending. I know you don’t mean to, so please don’t take this hard, or as any kind of crushing criticism; I know your heart is in the right place, and we all, as I always say, are imperfect in such matters.
Tip, though: better to just actually treat people as people, rather than still making big divisions between Men and Women. Praising someone for Doing A Good Job As A Woman is still being sexist. It’s when you don’t notice or care about their being female or male that you’re actually being non-sexist.
John McCain: good for the Indians.
I don’t remember if I saw this here and that article that Gary cites concering McCain’s gambling doesn’t have this gem from the Time article
In the heat of the G.O.P. primary fight last spring, he announced on a visit to the Vegas Strip that he was going to the casino floor. When his aides stopped him, fearing a public relations disaster, McCain suggested that they ask the casino to take a craps table to a private room, a high-roller privilege McCain had indulged in before. His aides, with alarm bells ringing, refused again, according to two accounts of the discussion.
Gary — read, but no further comment.
“See, the problem here is that now you’re sounding condescending.”
I understood that the moment I wrote those three words.
Yet if I had said, “Great work, men,” not a single eyebrow would be raised.
—
“Praising someone for Doing A Good Job As A Woman is still being sexist.”
The point here is, with Katie Couric being under a ton of heat for whether she’s up to anchoring a major network newscast — implicit in that criticism is “she’s a woman who should stick to morning television” — it’s impossible to ignore her sex.
Also, as noted this morning on CNN’s “Reliable Sources” — by women on the panel — Couric was able to be tougher on Palin than Charlie Gibson without being called sexist because, well, she is a woman.
Biden will face that dynamic Thursday night. Good for him, I think, that the moderator will be a woman: PBS anhor Gwen Ifill.
Yet if I had said, “Great work, men,” not a single eyebrow would be raised.
Multiple eyebrows, if you’d said it about Kate Couric…
I understood that the moment I wrote those three words.
Then you could have retrieved your mistake by deleting the one word “ladies” and just stuck to the non-sexist comment “Great work”. Given that you understood (you say) that including the word “ladies” would make your comment come across as condescending, why not just delete it? Why did you want to sound condescending?
Jes: If two male interviewers had done good jobs, and you end a note with “Great work, men” — and that would not be condescending — why is the phrase “Great work, ladies” offensive?
I did not say I knew it would be condescending. I said I knew it would raise eyebrows, only because I find people too touchy about this subject.
I am confused: It’s OK to mention Katie Couric’s sex when she is doing a bad job — or making history as the first female (solo) anchor of a network newscast — but it’s not OK to mention her sex when she does good work?
And please comment on this: “Also, as noted this morning on CNN’s “Reliable Sources” — by women on the panel — Couric was able to be tougher on Palin than Charlie Gibson without being called sexist because, well, she is a woman.”
It seems to me people want to pick and choose what is sexist and what is not, depending on whether or not it suits them.
Jes: If two male interviewers had done good jobs, and you end a note with “Great work, men” — and that would not be condescending — why is the phrase “Great work, ladies” offensive?
Because “ladies” is typically used to belittle and condescend, especially when referring to a professional person doing her job well.
Therefore, if your intention is not to offend, better to just say “Great work” and not add “ladies”. (In person, you may be able to convey via your tone that you intend compliment without condescension, but online, this is much less likely.)
I am confused: It’s OK to mention Katie Couric’s sex when she is doing a bad job — or making history as the first female (solo) anchor of a network newscast — but it’s not OK to mention her sex when she does good work?
It wouldn’t be OK to refer to Couric as a “lady anchor” or an “anchoress” either way. Nor did I ever say it would be. I noted, helpfully if sarcastically, that if your intent is not to be condescending, you should avoid tacking “ladies” onto a compliment.
“Because ‘ladies’ is typically used to belittle and condescend, especially when referring to a professional person doing her job well.”
I can’t entirely agree, Jes, and I’m not saying so just to be disagreeable.
When I have to go across the street to what we call the “back office” — in the old days I guess they used to call it a secretarial pool — and greet the dozen or so women who work there, and whom I know after five years working at the same place, some personally, with a friendly, “Hi, ladies,” I am sorry — I just do not find that condescending and, neither do they: Or trust me, I’d know.
(Thankfully, the place I work is less politically correct than the blogosphere.)
Same thing when I walk over the Hyundai building — staffed by all men — and say, “Hi, guys,” or “What’s up, boys?”
Of course, I’m “with it” enough to realize “Hi, ladies” works where “Hi, girls” would not.
And please comment on this: “Also, as noted this morning on CNN’s “Reliable Sources” — by women on the panel — Couric was able to be tougher on Palin than Charlie Gibson without being called sexist because, well, she is a woman.”
Thanks.
The point about Couric is interesting and suggests that Palin better stay away (or be kept away) from women interviewers, cause she loses one of the few advantages she has. Gibson had to go for the half-glasses, grampa look in order to protect himself from charges that he was too rough on Palin.
We should keep an eye on the spin after Gwen Ifill (who I think is top-notch) moderates the debate. If she demands answers of Palin that in any way resembles Couric’s interview, (actually, if she asks Palin any questions at all, given Palin’s inability to go beyond catchphrases) I’ll bet you that some of these blogs that still defend McCain will be suggesting that Ifill has it in for Palin because she’s an African-American before she’s a woman. The only question is who will be the first to seriously argue that?
lj,
I’d bet the $20 I have in my pocket right now that the McCain campaign selected Couric to do Palin’s second “big” (well, only other) network interview because they looked at her as a lightweight — which strikes me as a bit sexist.
Also, I agree with you entirely about Ifill. She can ask sharp, tough questions without injecting personality or any hint of an agenda in her work.
This debate looms large in that — coming off the Couric interview — Palin did not show any ability at all to think on her feet.
And in these debates, you’re kind of up there naked for all the world to see. That’s why, on the whole, Obama and McCain gave us one of the best presidential debates we’ve seen in some time.
Regardless of what Ifill asks, it’s almost impossible at this point for Palin to fail to exceed expectations. Expect a repeat of the media’s praise of her “surprising” performance in her convention speech. She won’t “knock it out of the park” this time, but she’ll “hold her own”, which will be enough to have an effective win in this sad media environment.
I think the current downturn — that word seems mild — in the economy won’t be corrected by the Wall Street Bailout.
Which I hope no one’s expecting, since the only relationship anyone’s argued for between the bailout and the underlying economy is that the recession/depression we’ve entered will be worse if credit freezes up further, several more big banks fail, and there are bank and money market runs.
Sadly, I think there’s a good chance of that happening, handout or no handout.
The underlying problem with the economy, a bipartisan achievement over the last 25 years but with the impetus coming from right-wing Republicans, is government encouragement of the financial sector at the expense of the manufacturing base (corporate free trade agreements, investing in military goods rather than clean energy, failure to regulate the shadow banking system) and encouragement of the capital owners at the expense of the workers (gutting of labor protections, making it much much harder to organize unions).
Oh, and massive tax giveaways to the richest.
Real income for all but the top 10% of the population has fallen. Real wages are stagnant and falling. The “recovery” in the middle of Bush’s terms was a jobless one, built on households taking on debt that had nothing to back it up.
lj: The only question is who will be the first to seriously argue that?
My money’s on Michelle Malkin, given the live-blogging advantage over cable talking heads. And Chris Matthews to drop none-too-subtle hints of it in the post-debate.
Couric was able to be tougher on Palin than Charlie Gibson
That’s an interesting theory, but I missed the part where Couric was actually tough on Palin.
Thanks –
That’s tougher in a comparative sense, not an absolute one…
Russell: “That’s an interesting theory, but I missed the part where Couric was actually tough on Palin.”
In today’s journalistic world, unfortunately — and especially when it comes to Palin — asking a follow-up once or twice where you seek “specifics” qualifies as “tough.”
Everybody is so “tough” on poor Palin, who I’d love to see do a forum like “Meet the Press.”
—
KC: “Regardless of what Ifill asks, it’s almost impossible at this point for Palin to fail to exceed expectations.”
Yeah, that seems to be the case. But if she gives another performance like the one she did with Couric — disaster.
—
Did anyone else get a kick out of Tina Fey last night?
Or Hammond as McCain?
On the other hand, seeing how he may be our president for the next four years, SNL may want to find someone who does a convincing Obama.
“Sadly, I think there’s a good chance of that happening, handout or no handout.”
That’s what I keep seeing CNBC wild man Jim Cramer, who seems to know his stuff, say every night.
Cramer contends that things will get worse — and we will probably fall into a deeper recession — even if we get a big bailout. Scary.
If so, there will be a lot of political fallout with a public that already doesn’t like the idea of a bailout — and will no doubt think the $700 billion is supposed to be some sort of cure-all.
Bush/McCain/Paulson/Obama/Dodd/Pelsoi/Reid have all done a bad job of conveying to the country that the proposed billion-dollar bailout is Just A First Step.
A sign, to me, that this country truly has a leadership void.
When I have to go across the street to what we call the “back office” — in the old days I guess they used to call it a secretarial pool — and greet the dozen or so women who work there, and whom I know after five years working at the same place, some personally, with a friendly, “Hi, ladies,” I am sorry — I just do not find that condescending and, neither do they: Or trust me, I’d know.
Yes, so these are your peers? Or your seniors? I don’t know what you do where you work, so I don’t know if the people in the secretarial pool are your equals, or senior to you, either as your line manager or your supervisors? You use “Hi, ladies” as a respectful address to people who are senior to you in the workplace, with the power to formally assess your work, give you verbal warnings if you’re out of line or below par, hire and fire?
Is “Hi, ladies” is how you talk to your line manager, her line manager, and the CEO?
Your assertion is that you say “ladies” not to belittle or diminish, but the fact that you claim you, a man, know better than I, a woman, what kind of behavior a professional woman finds belittling or diminishing, but instead argues that women who find this offensive are “touchy”, suggests you are in the habit of dismissing the views of any woman who tries to explain to you that you are coming across as offensive/condescending. Which suggests, too, that the secretarial pool where you work (if they are not your seniors…) knows better than to try to explain what they don’t like about your behavior to you.
(The above comment was addressed to bedtimeforbonzo… sorry, should have hit “refresh” before posting.)
Hi, Jes (halftime of the Redskins-Cowboys game, so I thought I would check back in) —
Actually, to call it the secretarial pool wasn’t exactly right — this “back office” just happens to filled with all women, one of which is very high up (Darlene has the ability to sign checks) at the dealership.
I’d have to say our place is pretty informal. And since meeting her at work five years ago, Darlene and I have always gotten along like fast friends — she is the first person I go to when my son has one of those fundraiser brochures that drive parents crazy. Just today — we were open 11-4 on a rare Sunday workday — I went across the street to check the football scores on the TV in the lobby and here came Darlene, who was putting a few hours in on her day off, dressed in her Eagles green, sweat pants, etc., and I told her she looked “cute” and, trust me, Darlene is the type of person who likes that sort of compliment, assuming you are someone she is fairly close with. I’d say a car dealership is a bad example for what we were talking about because it’s pretty informal — at least my dealership — and not corporate at all. And again, if I’m going to visit Hyundai and say, “Hi, boys,” I feel just as free to say, “Hi, ladies” (instead of addressing 10 women separately when I’m popping back there for 5 minutes to have Darlene sign something).
Frankly, I think the bigger issue is: Do I resent the fact that Darlene makes more money than me or has a bigger say-so in things than me? Answer: No.
Or:
Do I, as a man, feel that Katie Couric or Campbell Brown should not be in the positions they are in because they are women — now that would be sexist — and the answer would be a resounding “no.”
I think Katie Couric deserves a lot of credit for getting where she has gotten. I’d watch Charlie Gibson before her, but not so with Brian Williams, who I find to be verbose.
I’d rather watch CNN’s Campbell Brown than, say, MSNBC’s David Gregory, who has a similar-type show, although I’d rather watch Chris Matthews than either of them because I enjoy his peculiar manner, unpredictability and historical insight and recall.
One last thing: As a woman, your perspective on this would be appreciated:
“Also, as noted this morning on CNN’s “Reliable Sources” — by women on the panel — Couric was able to be tougher on Palin than Charlie Gibson without being called sexist because, well, she is a woman.”
Thanks.
By the way, Jes, if I worked with you or someone like you who I knew took offense to the term “Hi, ladies” I would not use it, given that my intent is not to be offensive, but rather be polite and acknowledge these people’s presence — unlike many of male colleagues, who just ignore them.
Thanks, all, for noting the relative nature of toughness. The whole interview schtick is really amazing. If it ain’t Sean Hannity, it’s a trap set by the media. Google Gibson + Palin + unfair and you’ll be amazed to learn that the first interview was a pit lined with bamboo pungee sticks smeared with excrement. Using the template of boycotts/angry letters to the station that was developed by those upset at homosexuality on TV, it seems that (and this isn’t to defend the media, I’m actually hear to bury them) that the environment to grow stones is lacking certain nutrients.
However, in Palin, we have a candidate who can hoist herself on her own petard and perhaps field dress herself while dangling up there if interviewed by a person with a shred of dignity. This is what I mean by ‘toughness’, (the ability to sit back and let Palin do this) and I can see that in using it this way, I am actually draining the word of any original meaning. Apologies to ObWi gentlefolk for doing this to such a nice and useful word like toughness.
With computer technology having advanced so far, I’d like to create a holodeck version of Palin and require anyone who does interviews in the media to interview it. If the interview in any resembles Sean Hannity’s, or has any of the features of Pam Geller’s interview of John Bolton or these other ones referenced by Greenwald, they should be giving hazmat suits and sent to work on the nearest Superfund site. It’s only a first step, but this might help to weed out the worst of the worst.
By the way, Jes, if I worked with you or someone like you who I knew took offense to the term “Hi, ladies” I would not use it
I’m not at all sure you’d notice. For one thing, whenever I’ve worked in an office, while the “Hi ladies!” attitude always bugs me (the guys who do that never walk into a room full of male employees and go “Hi gentlemen!”) there are always guys who do far worse things – I don’t waste my energy combating the “Hi ladies!” attitude.
You asked why “Great work, ladies!” came across as condescending. I told you. It turned out you weren’t asking because you wanted to know so that you could avoid that kind of behavior in future: you were asking rhetorically, in order to dismiss any offense as not worth your consideration. Which is, in and of itself, a condescending, sexist attitude.
Jes:
Any opinion on this:
“Also, as noted this morning on CNN’s ‘Reliable Sources’ — by women on the panel — Couric was able to be tougher on Palin than Charlie Gibson without being called sexist because, well, she is a woman.”
And you did not address this:
“Frankly, I think the bigger issue is: Do I resent the fact that Darlene makes more money than me or has a bigger say-so in things than me? Answer: No.
“Or:
Do I, as a man, feel that Katie Couric or Campbell Brown should not be in the positions they are in because they are women — now that would be sexist — and the answer would be a resounding ‘no.'”
Thanks.
The SNL take on the Couric interview of Palin.
BTFB: look up the advice about what to do when in a ditch.
And suggestion: when members of groups holding less societal power than you do talk about what forms of behavior members of the majority/more powerful engage in that offends them, consider listening, rather than protesting and defending.
Also, “Let Me Show I’m Not An Insanely Monsterous Example Of X” is not a defense when it’s suggested that you might be engaging in behavior/rhetoric that’s mildly Xish, or being somewhat less aware of Xishness than you might be.
Nobody is perfectly non-sexist, non-racist, non-homophobic, non-whatever. And not all accusations of such behavior or language are justified or reasonable.
But, dude, you’d benefit from reading a few good books, and hanging out a lot with some truly feminist women, enough, at least, to know better than to start trying to haul out defenses of how you’re not really insanely sexist (patting yourself on the back for not opposing women making more money than you; ditto for being non-sexist enough to not oppose women being news anchors; jeebus!, you must have no idea how that comes off), or how since you know women whom you think like to be called “ladies,” everyone is down with that, or whatever your next scoop of the shovel in the ditch might bring: it ain’t helpin’ ya.
Yes, Bedtime, you might consider eliminating “lady” from your vocabulary except when you’re talking about that Rothschild PUMA.
She won’t “knock it out of the park” this time, but she’ll “hold her own”, which will be enough to have an effective win in this sad media environment.
If not, she can blame the broken teleprompter!
Gary,
I would still point out that a true sexist would not cotton to a female boss, much less admire one.
A real sexist would not go to the mat for Hillary Clinton, much less admire her.
A real sexist would not be OK with female priests.
A real sexist would not support a woman’s right to choose.
A real sexist would not think “The View” can be a hoot. (Who among us did not like the way those ladies made John McCain squirm?)
That’s not to acknowledge that my behavior isn’t flawed.
I hestitated to weigh in on this because it seems like one of those played-out-thread-everyone-getting-irritable things which happen here every now and then, but I guess i just can’t resist the sound of my own voice:
In my opinion the only time the use of the word “lady” to refer to others is inherently sexist is when the people referred to are men. Otherwise the usage could be sexist or not depending on all sorts of thisgs: tone of vioce, relationship between speaker and spoken to, intent, situation, etc.
BTW the secretary at my previous worksite refferred to male staffers who hung out in her office as “boys”. As in “WOuld you guys get out of my way?” or “Are any of you boys heading to the main office? I need this run down there” etc.
But at my previous worksite everyone knew who really ran the department.
Bedtime, the point isn’t whether you are or are not a sexist. It’s whether a particular thing you did or said was sexist.
On a lighter topic, I read this before bed last night and thought this lede by Steven Rea in Sunday’s Philadelphia Inquirer was an example of really good writing:
“Paul Newman, 83, the Hollywood icon with the famous blue eyes and killer grin who seduced audiences with six decades worth of rebels, rascals and moody romancers, died Friday after a battle with cancer.”
I think Newman’s passing is worth noting because he very well may have represented the last of old Hollywood’s acting legends — a Bogart, a Jimmy Stewart, a Henry Fonda.
I’d put DeNiro, Pacino and even Nicholson in a different category than “old” Hollywood.
Newman always reminded me of my late father, who had a similar build and personality, even the same piercing blue eyes.
My top five Newman films:
1. The Verdict — Newman as a down-and-out alcoholic lawyer whose career of ambulance-chasing is capped with a final redemption in the courtroom. Perhaps the least showy performance of Mr. Newman’s career.
2. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid — Maybe the best buddy movie of all-time. The final shootout scene is brilliant, sad, and even funny.
3. Nobody’s Fool — The kind of “small” picture Hollywood rarely makes. Playing a small-town construction worker and loner who gives his life a little meaning at the end of it, the older Newman really reminded me of my father, who was a lifelong construction worker.
4. Cool Hand Luke — Newman’s sad, funny, macho Luke never gives up and managed to make his life on a chain gang seem a heoric. The egg-eating contest is a Hollywood standard.
5. Slap Shot — Irrevrent, hillarious, ribald. I don’t think there’s an actor today — not even Russell Crowe — who could fill out the part of Newman’s washed-up, regular-guy, minor-league hockey player.
That’s quite a body of work, seeing how neither of the Hustler movies nor 1973 Best Picture The Sting — the first “adult” movie my parents let me go see in a theatre, at age 11 — aren’t on my personal top five.
Wonkie: “But at my previous worksite everyone knew who really ran the department.”
I’ve always been amazed and impressed that at the car dealerships I have firsthand knowledge about and at the three newspapers I worked at in a previous life, one or two secretaries practically ran the place.
And if you wanted to get something done — or secure your place in the food chain — you’d be wise to make friends with Darlene or Jane or Tracy.
I’m not sure if the same is true at some of these Wall Street firms that are currently being bailed out. But it would not surprise me.
P.S. It would be safer and perhaps wiser, I guess, of just running away or not elaborating on the whole sexism issue. But I don’t see any value or decency in shutting down a topic even when it makes you look bad.
Wow, btfb… Hud didn’t make your list, either?
KCinDC: Bedtime, the point isn’t whether you are or are not a sexist. It’s whether a particular thing you did or said was sexist.
Exactly.
Returning to the Paul Newman topic: I’ve never seen a single film he was in (this is far from unusual for me) though there are two he was in that I have on my tuit list to see: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, and the 2003 Our Town).
Aside from a predilection for buddy movies where the two leads gaze at each other with barely-suppressed romantic devotion, I tend to try to go to movies that pass the Bechdel Test…
“I would still point out that a true sexist would not cotton to a female boss, much less admire one.”
You’re not getting it. There’s no such thing as a “true sexist,” with everyone else who isn’t that kind of total monster being non-sexist.
We all have sexist thoughts. Me, you, all women, everyone.
The point is to notice when we have them, and try to root them out.
The point is not to look for Incredibly Clear Examples In Other People, and explain that Gosh, We’re Not That Bad.
Toss this whole “real sexist” notion in the garbage, where it belongs.
Well, Nell, I was just listing a personal top five, realizing if you were a professional film critic “Hud” would be a Newman essential on any top five list.
“Hud” is a great picture, although very, very grim. The acting is off-the-hook good: Melvyn Douglas as the dad and Patricia Neal as the housekeeper — both Oscar-winning performances.
“Hud” reminds me of one of my favorite movies: “The Last Picture Show” — these are really the kind of movies they don’t make anymore.
I love “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid” for all of its iconic scenes: the final shootout, the “Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head” bicycle scene, the “Who Are Those Guys?”
And as a teenager, I fell in love with Katharine Ross’ stunning beauty — you could understand why both Butch and Sundance would fall for her.
I’m glad you guys shot back something on Newman. The news these days seems pretty grim, and two guys in the last hour just got fired here.
As John Thullen noted in a different thread: trickle-down economics.
Gary: I’m not sure there is a nice way to tell someone to shut the fuck up.
“I think Newman’s passing is worth noting because he very well may have represented the last of old Hollywood’s acting legends — a Bogart, a Jimmy Stewart, a Henry Fonda.”
Newman, but not Redford?
“2. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid — Maybe the best buddy movie of all-time.”
Yes, but it could do without the Burt Bacharach interlude.
There were a bunch of quotes from various stories about Newman I liked. Here are two:
Here is another:
“But I don’t see any value or decency in shutting down a topic even when it makes you look bad.”
You’re to be applauded for that.
“Gary: I’m not sure there is a nice way to tell someone to shut the f*ck up.”
But I don’t mean it in a bad way.
😉
“Newman, but not Redford?”
I wondered about this.
But I know there are people who simply let Redford’s pretty-good looks get in the way and don’t consider Redford a great actor.
Very wrong.
Redford was terrific in “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid,” “The Sting,” “All the President’s Men,” and my favorite: “Three Days of the Condor.”
“But I don’t mean it in a bad way.”
Yeah, I kind of figured that. I’m smart enough (I hope) to realize that you guys would not give me the time of day if you thought I was a sexist pig. It’s bad enough I blindly supported Hillary over Barack in the primaries.
FWIW, when I see two guys around me — two guys with families like me — get fired, I think that’s why I have a problem viewing and analyzing the Bailout rationally.
Who is going to bail them out?
I was going to post the “If you act as well as you cook” letter, but I see that Gary already has.
Speaks volumes about Newman, doesn’t it?
tend to try to go to movies that pass the Bechdel Test…
Try Saving Face — Chinese-American women talk about all sorts of things, with each other, and with the men in their lives. Great movie!
I Netflixed “Three Days Of The Condor” last year; it holds up well, I thought. Although I also love going back to visit the NYC of my youth.
Another small Redford film I’m very fond of is “The Hot Rock,” although some of that is, again, personal nostalgia because of my having spent so many weekends for a few years around that exact same time working as a docent at the Brooklyn museum, and in a kid’s program supervising young kids, and otherwise spending vast amounts of time down the street at the Main Branch of the Brooklyn Public Library for so many weekends, sometimes concluding by walking down for another visit to the museum (or a stroll through the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens).
But it’s also just a fun little picture, and one of the the few to do “Donald Westlake” justice.
“The Candidate” remains one of the best movies on politics, and the best picture on campaigning, ever made.
I don’t have to wait for Redford to die to say this, right?
“Who is going to bail them out?”
Let’s enact dirty hippie Milton Friedman’s negative income tax.
For Jes.
That’s handicapped by being badly cropped, to be sure. But there’s also this.
Okay, aside from the momentary annoying opening, this is a much better, widescreen, version of the first scene I linked. Ignore that, if it’s not too late, and click on this one instead. Sorry about that.
Jes:
Found this list of Top 10 lesbian-themed movies.
I’ve only seen “Bound” and would say it is every bit as steamy and riveting as the William Hurt/Kathleen Turner “Body Heat.”
It’s not lesbian-themed, but “Thelma and Louise” would make my Top 10 list of buddy pictures.
Gary:
You are right about “Three Days of the Condor” holding up well. Redford and Faye Dunaway — who I always thought was underrated: her “Chinatown” being an all-time great — have awesome chemistry in that movie. And if I’m not mistaken, there isn’t a hint of sex in it.
I’m almost ashamed I omitted “The Candidate” — as you say, seems very realistic.
What’s the final line? Something like “What do we do now?”
A recent Redford film that I absolutely adore — and seem to be in the minority about — was “The Horse Whisperer.”
Scarlett Johannson — pre-glam — gives a great performance as a troubled youth. And Redford’s love interest, Kristin Scott Thomas, is always good and reminds me of a complex woman I dated the summer before I got married four years ago.
The movie is visually beautiful but probably turns a lot of people off because it is very, very long.
Speaking of firings, I had a customer the other day who works for DHL. He told me 20 of his co-workers were let just go and the company was going through a major restructuring.
I’m just as worried about this — rising unemployment (which will probably get worse) than the DOW’s big slide.
No wonder the housing market has dried up.
Who would want to buy a house in this market?
For that matter, who would want to buy a car in this market?
I risked my job security twice today when I flat-out refused when my boss wanted me to push cars onto customers who clearly did not want them. He looked at me like I had three heads.
Luckily, his boss probably respects what I did more than the sleazy way my old-school manager often treats customers.
BtfB,
In my opinion pushy salepeople are more likely to drive peopel away, then make them repeat customers.
But yeah sales is rough now. Scarey job market.
About Emily: she had a seizure today. She seems to be OK now. She walked around a little after the seizure and now she’s sleeping.
It’s scarey and disappointing–she’s been doing so well! She’s been going for walks, greeting people, showing interest in other dogs, her tiail finally appeared from between her legs..
So anyway she’s going to the vet tomorrow. I think she’s Ok, basically. maybe she’ll need anti-seizure meds.
Dahlia Lithwick on Paul Newman is particularly nice.
She was a counselor at one of his Hole-In-The-Wall-Gang camps.
I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don’t know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.
Sarah
http://www.thetreadmillguide.com