What it means

by

by liberal japonicus

A thread for everyone to talk about election aftermaths. I realize that in a lot of places we still don’t know, such as Georgia (runoff), Alaska (ranked voting) and counting mail-in ballots (Nevada, California, other places), but certainly a lot to mull over.

The thing that I’m wondering about is how much of this loss is predicated on the Supreme Court dumping Roe. If the conservative judges had know how much it was going to backfire, would they have done it?

It also gives me a lot of pleasure that so many pundits got it wrong. Almost as much as thinking how Musk, Zuckerberg and Bezos are going to lost their shirts. Unfortunately, neither the pundits nor the three stooges are going to see it as I do, as a sort of karmic payback.

Also, a shout-out to Russell, who identified Fetterman a long time ago. I’ve been trying to find his comment just to see if I or others gave him the ‘yeah, right’ treatment. If anyone can remember about when it was, post a note in the comments and I’ll see if I can find where it came up.

Anyway, have at it!

560 thoughts on “What it means”

  1. I’ve been trying to remember if it was Fetterman that russell wrote about! Thanks for confirmation, lj. I can’t remember when it was, though.

  2. I’ve been trying to remember if it was Fetterman that russell wrote about! Thanks for confirmation, lj. I can’t remember when it was, though.

  3. This is the earliest that I can find Fetterman referenced.
    russell: “I was not aware of Fetterman before watching this. It’s impossible for me to overstate how freaking right on I think this guy is. Straight up, no BS, solid.
    I hope he gets a bigger platform going forward.”
    On Racism and other isms. (November 20, 2020)

  4. This is the earliest that I can find Fetterman referenced.
    russell: “I was not aware of Fetterman before watching this. It’s impossible for me to overstate how freaking right on I think this guy is. Straight up, no BS, solid.
    I hope he gets a bigger platform going forward.”
    On Racism and other isms. (November 20, 2020)

  5. The thing that I’m wondering about is how much of this loss is predicated on the Supreme Court dumping Roe. If the conservative judges had know how much it was going to backfire, would they have done it?
    From my scattered skimming, I think Roe played a huge part, though it wasn’t the only thing.
    But as to “if they had known” — first of all, the SCOTUS justices can, if they want, live in a bubble that makes the bubbles the rest of us live in look as flimsy as … okay, soap bubbles. They don’t have to run for office, they don’t have to make speeches to voters, they don’t have to court donors. They are as coddled and insulated as it gets. I am making this up, but I’m not sure how much some of them give a shit about electoral consequences. Alito, for one, is a raging religious fanatic.
    But secondly, by gutting the VRA they themselves have gone a long way to enabling what I said in answer to wj yesterday: Seems to me that if they get enough power to gut SocSec and Medicare, they will be gerrymandering, overriding, and generally nullifying actual votes, if they even bother to keep up a pretense.
    They don’t care about electoral consequences because they are helping to engineer a system where there won’t be any that matter.

  6. The thing that I’m wondering about is how much of this loss is predicated on the Supreme Court dumping Roe. If the conservative judges had know how much it was going to backfire, would they have done it?
    From my scattered skimming, I think Roe played a huge part, though it wasn’t the only thing.
    But as to “if they had known” — first of all, the SCOTUS justices can, if they want, live in a bubble that makes the bubbles the rest of us live in look as flimsy as … okay, soap bubbles. They don’t have to run for office, they don’t have to make speeches to voters, they don’t have to court donors. They are as coddled and insulated as it gets. I am making this up, but I’m not sure how much some of them give a shit about electoral consequences. Alito, for one, is a raging religious fanatic.
    But secondly, by gutting the VRA they themselves have gone a long way to enabling what I said in answer to wj yesterday: Seems to me that if they get enough power to gut SocSec and Medicare, they will be gerrymandering, overriding, and generally nullifying actual votes, if they even bother to keep up a pretense.
    They don’t care about electoral consequences because they are helping to engineer a system where there won’t be any that matter.

  7. If the conservative judges had know how much it was going to backfire, would they have done it?
    As Janie says, Justices can live in a bubble. And it would be no surprise if the three political hacks do. (And Thomas, of course.)
    But I think part of their blind spot is simply that, while their confirmation hearings made plain the Senators, and perhaps the far left, cared, they just didn’t grasp how the bulk of the country felt.
    They knew the Republican base, or at least a big (and vocal) part of it, cared deeply. But the rest of us were naive believers in stare decisis, so we didn’t feel compelled to talk, let alone rant and rave, about it. The fact is, even a majority of Republicans favor allowing first trimester abortions. And not just for the usual “rape, incest, health of the mother” exceptions. But hey, judges shouldn’t decide based on the polls, right?
    As for caring about electoral consequences, I think that the 3 Trump appointees, at least do care. A lot — that’s what they’re there for. It’s more a matter of what they thing/guess the consequences will be. So they’ll go for gerrymandering, and for overriding and generally nullifying actual votes. But they aren’t dumb enough to gut Social Security and Medicare by judicial fiat.

  8. If the conservative judges had know how much it was going to backfire, would they have done it?
    As Janie says, Justices can live in a bubble. And it would be no surprise if the three political hacks do. (And Thomas, of course.)
    But I think part of their blind spot is simply that, while their confirmation hearings made plain the Senators, and perhaps the far left, cared, they just didn’t grasp how the bulk of the country felt.
    They knew the Republican base, or at least a big (and vocal) part of it, cared deeply. But the rest of us were naive believers in stare decisis, so we didn’t feel compelled to talk, let alone rant and rave, about it. The fact is, even a majority of Republicans favor allowing first trimester abortions. And not just for the usual “rape, incest, health of the mother” exceptions. But hey, judges shouldn’t decide based on the polls, right?
    As for caring about electoral consequences, I think that the 3 Trump appointees, at least do care. A lot — that’s what they’re there for. It’s more a matter of what they thing/guess the consequences will be. So they’ll go for gerrymandering, and for overriding and generally nullifying actual votes. But they aren’t dumb enough to gut Social Security and Medicare by judicial fiat.

  9. Some guy, expressing his astonishment at the lack of a red tide, blurted out that “The women went crazy!”
    According to what I’ve been reading in various places, the other big boost for Democrats was the large turnout of Gen Z voters concerned about the future. THey want climate action and they don’t want Gilead.
    Listening to the Republicans is a lesson on how intellectually and morally bankrupt their spokespeople are. They are interested in issues only as a tool for blaming Democrats and getting elected. Their actual agenda is to screw everyone over except those who have enough wealth to protect themselves. Hence the need for hate/fear messages and hence the lack of any ideas for what to do about crime or inflation. They don’t actually give a shit about the issues they rant about.
    So their ranting wasn’t as affective as expected. FOr about five minutes there was a little reflection about that. Then they all decided to blame Trump. Of course, they aren’t going to take any responsibility. Refusal to take responsibility is a core Republican value.
    Now they will look for a new face to pin on the the disgusting pile of pig poop that is the Republican party. And they will continue to be, as Biden noted, neo fascist.

  10. Some guy, expressing his astonishment at the lack of a red tide, blurted out that “The women went crazy!”
    According to what I’ve been reading in various places, the other big boost for Democrats was the large turnout of Gen Z voters concerned about the future. THey want climate action and they don’t want Gilead.
    Listening to the Republicans is a lesson on how intellectually and morally bankrupt their spokespeople are. They are interested in issues only as a tool for blaming Democrats and getting elected. Their actual agenda is to screw everyone over except those who have enough wealth to protect themselves. Hence the need for hate/fear messages and hence the lack of any ideas for what to do about crime or inflation. They don’t actually give a shit about the issues they rant about.
    So their ranting wasn’t as affective as expected. FOr about five minutes there was a little reflection about that. Then they all decided to blame Trump. Of course, they aren’t going to take any responsibility. Refusal to take responsibility is a core Republican value.
    Now they will look for a new face to pin on the the disgusting pile of pig poop that is the Republican party. And they will continue to be, as Biden noted, neo fascist.

  11. According to what I’ve been reading in various places, the other big boost for Democrats was the large turnout of Gen Z voters concerned about the future.
    …
    So their ranting wasn’t as affective as expected. For about five minutes there was a little reflection about that. Then they all decided to blame Trump. Of course, they aren’t going to take any responsibility.
    Neither will they consider that, in a close race (of which we seem to have several), a few lost votes will really matter. And if you have discouraged your partisans to avoid a vaccine, and other measures to avoid covid, thus killing them off in disproportionate numbers. Well, then you have just cost yourself those critical votes, haven’t you?

  12. According to what I’ve been reading in various places, the other big boost for Democrats was the large turnout of Gen Z voters concerned about the future.
    …
    So their ranting wasn’t as affective as expected. For about five minutes there was a little reflection about that. Then they all decided to blame Trump. Of course, they aren’t going to take any responsibility.
    Neither will they consider that, in a close race (of which we seem to have several), a few lost votes will really matter. And if you have discouraged your partisans to avoid a vaccine, and other measures to avoid covid, thus killing them off in disproportionate numbers. Well, then you have just cost yourself those critical votes, haven’t you?

  13. Someone needs to do the work of looking at the voter registration numbers from 2018 to 2022, and the vaccination rates per district, and the extra deaths per district for the narrowest of the election margins nationwide and compare totals to estimate what the results might have looked like with wider acceptance of the vaccines. That might give us an idea of the size of the petard.

  14. Someone needs to do the work of looking at the voter registration numbers from 2018 to 2022, and the vaccination rates per district, and the extra deaths per district for the narrowest of the election margins nationwide and compare totals to estimate what the results might have looked like with wider acceptance of the vaccines. That might give us an idea of the size of the petard.

  21. The Secretary of State race in Nevada has not yet been called, but Cisco Aguilar is ahead of election denier Jim Marchant by 14,064, which is a lot because there are only about 60,000 votes left to count, so I expect him to win. This is a real rebuke to Marchant, because Democrats are behind in other statewide races in Nevada. It looks like some Republican voters split their ticket rather than voting for a Secretary of State who opposes democracy.
    In Arizona Hobbs is 31,097 ahead of Lake in the race for governor, which is too close to call, but Adrian Fontes is ahead of Mark Finchem by 118,125 votes and has been declared the winner. Finchem, you may recall, tried to convince the the Arizona state legislature to appoint electors supporting Trump, ignoring the choice of the voters. Again, it looks like some Republicans decided to split their tickets.

  22. The Secretary of State race in Nevada has not yet been called, but Cisco Aguilar is ahead of election denier Jim Marchant by 14,064, which is a lot because there are only about 60,000 votes left to count, so I expect him to win. This is a real rebuke to Marchant, because Democrats are behind in other statewide races in Nevada. It looks like some Republican voters split their ticket rather than voting for a Secretary of State who opposes democracy.
    In Arizona Hobbs is 31,097 ahead of Lake in the race for governor, which is too close to call, but Adrian Fontes is ahead of Mark Finchem by 118,125 votes and has been declared the winner. Finchem, you may recall, tried to convince the the Arizona state legislature to appoint electors supporting Trump, ignoring the choice of the voters. Again, it looks like some Republicans decided to split their tickets.

  25. From what I’ve heard, Mastriano got crushed,but has yet to concede. True to form.
    Oz, on the other hand has conceded gracefully, and we can wish him well for his future political endeavors in Jersey.

  26. From what I’ve heard, Mastriano got crushed,but has yet to concede. True to form.
    Oz, on the other hand has conceded gracefully, and we can wish him well for his future political endeavors in Jersey.

  27. Alexandra Petri, in another on-point column, explains what the election means in some quarters:
    It’s time to raise the voting age!

    We already tried gerrymandering. And we will keep trying it! We already tried voter suppression of various kinds. That was good, but did not go far enough. It was not sufficiently well-targeted.
    The answer is simple: We have got to raise the voting age. Twenty-one? That might not be enough, honestly. Millennials are not as conservative as they ought to be and some of them are pushing 40 now. We should consider whether we might not want it to be higher than that. Fifty feels reasonable. A good, round number.

    Further

    Consider whom you want to trust with making decisions for the future. Shouldn’t you put your confidence in sober, levelheaded elders who, on their way out, are entirely unbiased and can look at the situation without considering their own self-interest?
    Young people are the last people you want to make important choices about the future. They are not objective about it; they will be the ones living there.

    Sounds just sooo . . . reasonable. Right?

  28. Alexandra Petri, in another on-point column, explains what the election means in some quarters:
    It’s time to raise the voting age!

    We already tried gerrymandering. And we will keep trying it! We already tried voter suppression of various kinds. That was good, but did not go far enough. It was not sufficiently well-targeted.
    The answer is simple: We have got to raise the voting age. Twenty-one? That might not be enough, honestly. Millennials are not as conservative as they ought to be and some of them are pushing 40 now. We should consider whether we might not want it to be higher than that. Fifty feels reasonable. A good, round number.

    Further

    Consider whom you want to trust with making decisions for the future. Shouldn’t you put your confidence in sober, levelheaded elders who, on their way out, are entirely unbiased and can look at the situation without considering their own self-interest?
    Young people are the last people you want to make important choices about the future. They are not objective about it; they will be the ones living there.

    Sounds just sooo . . . reasonable. Right?

  29. Well, the RCC traditionally argues that only celibates can make unbiased judgements about sex.
    And the rich are unlikely to vote themselves free meals, so they should be in charge of finances (an even older tradition).

  30. Well, the RCC traditionally argues that only celibates can make unbiased judgements about sex.
    And the rich are unlikely to vote themselves free meals, so they should be in charge of finances (an even older tradition).

  31. Well, she was trailing, and I questioned (privately) whether the optimism in some quarters was justified. But now, 97% of the votes have been counted in Nevada, with a substantial majority of the rest being from Las Vegas and Reno. And Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto (D) has a 5,000 vote lead.
    It’s looking increasingly like the question regarding the Georgia runoff will be: how much influence will Senator Manchin (and/or Senator Sinema) have going forward?

  32. Well, she was trailing, and I questioned (privately) whether the optimism in some quarters was justified. But now, 97% of the votes have been counted in Nevada, with a substantial majority of the rest being from Las Vegas and Reno. And Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto (D) has a 5,000 vote lead.
    It’s looking increasingly like the question regarding the Georgia runoff will be: how much influence will Senator Manchin (and/or Senator Sinema) have going forward?

  33. As a Georgia resident, I am beyond relieved that the runoff, while it will have consequences, will not be as consequential. I still hope that we will be spared the embarrassment of Walker becoming a senator.

  34. As a Georgia resident, I am beyond relieved that the runoff, while it will have consequences, will not be as consequential. I still hope that we will be spared the embarrassment of Walker becoming a senator.

  35. I still hope that we will be spared the embarrassment of Walker becoming a senator.
    My take from the previous runoff is that everyone who was willing to vote for the Republican candidate did so the first time. So the only question is whether Senator Warnock can turn out enough of his own supporters, plus of those who voted for the third party candidates, to win. And it seems like the odds favor him.
    Almost, I could see it as a version of ranked choice voting. Where Walker is nobody’s second (or even third) choice.

  36. I still hope that we will be spared the embarrassment of Walker becoming a senator.
    My take from the previous runoff is that everyone who was willing to vote for the Republican candidate did so the first time. So the only question is whether Senator Warnock can turn out enough of his own supporters, plus of those who voted for the third party candidates, to win. And it seems like the odds favor him.
    Almost, I could see it as a version of ranked choice voting. Where Walker is nobody’s second (or even third) choice.

  37. It *is* a version of ranked choice voting. Or probably more accurately, vice versa. Ranked choice is often called “instant runoff.”

  38. It *is* a version of ranked choice voting. Or probably more accurately, vice versa. Ranked choice is often called “instant runoff.”

  39. The difference being that, with ranked choice, voters don’t need to bestir themselves a second time. Which, considering how many don’t bother for midterm elections (usually), does not seem like an inconsiderable plus.

  40. The difference being that, with ranked choice, voters don’t need to bestir themselves a second time. Which, considering how many don’t bother for midterm elections (usually), does not seem like an inconsiderable plus.

  41. Yes, that was a selling point when we had a referendum on it in Maine, after we got Lepage as governor twice because of a 3rd party spoiler (Eliot Cutler) who was much later arrested for the huge stash of child porn he kept on his computer.
    Lepage became governor with less than 40% of the vote the first time, high 40s the second time. If Cutler hadn’t had the mind-boggling arrogance to run again, we might not have had Lepage the second time around.
    Anyhow, the irony is that there were more go-rounds, and the Maine supreme judicial court ruled that ranked choice is unconstitutional for state offices. So we have it for congress and the presidency but we still haven’t passed a constitutional amendment to be able to use it for e.g. governor races.

  42. Yes, that was a selling point when we had a referendum on it in Maine, after we got Lepage as governor twice because of a 3rd party spoiler (Eliot Cutler) who was much later arrested for the huge stash of child porn he kept on his computer.
    Lepage became governor with less than 40% of the vote the first time, high 40s the second time. If Cutler hadn’t had the mind-boggling arrogance to run again, we might not have had Lepage the second time around.
    Anyhow, the irony is that there were more go-rounds, and the Maine supreme judicial court ruled that ranked choice is unconstitutional for state offices. So we have it for congress and the presidency but we still haven’t passed a constitutional amendment to be able to use it for e.g. governor races.

  43. Also for you, wj:
    A tweet:
    Kevin Roberts
    @KevinRobertsTX
    ·
    Nov 12
    This failure must spark serious changes in Republican leadership—and their DC-centric, consultant-driven non-strategy. Having spent the last few days with everyday conservatives at @Heritage’s annual mtg the base is on the brink of walking away forever.
    And a reply to the tweet:
    Patrick Chovanec
    @prchovanec
    It is fun to watch the leaders of the Republican Party blame “the leaders of the Republican Party” for driving off a cliff.
    *****
    The bit about the base walking away brought to mind our occasional conversations here about rebuilding the R party vs the unlikely rise of a 3rd party. What I want to know is, if they think the base is walking away, where do they think the base is going?

  44. Also for you, wj:
    A tweet:
    Kevin Roberts
    @KevinRobertsTX
    ·
    Nov 12
    This failure must spark serious changes in Republican leadership—and their DC-centric, consultant-driven non-strategy. Having spent the last few days with everyday conservatives at @Heritage’s annual mtg the base is on the brink of walking away forever.
    And a reply to the tweet:
    Patrick Chovanec
    @prchovanec
    It is fun to watch the leaders of the Republican Party blame “the leaders of the Republican Party” for driving off a cliff.
    *****
    The bit about the base walking away brought to mind our occasional conversations here about rebuilding the R party vs the unlikely rise of a 3rd party. What I want to know is, if they think the base is walking away, where do they think the base is going?

  45. Yeats was wrong. The center did hold. At least for the Senate; we can now turn our prayers to the House.
    What I want to know is, if they think the base is walking away, where do they think the base is going?
    I suspect that they mean that the ultra-reactionaries who form their base will simply stop turning out. That they will, instead, sit home and sulk. God speed the day!

  46. Yeats was wrong. The center did hold. At least for the Senate; we can now turn our prayers to the House.
    What I want to know is, if they think the base is walking away, where do they think the base is going?
    I suspect that they mean that the ultra-reactionaries who form their base will simply stop turning out. That they will, instead, sit home and sulk. God speed the day!

  47. Also, remember our recent conversation about whether the SCOTUS justices might have second thoughts about the abortion decisions after the election?
    Nope. This event happened after the election.
    From the article:

    Norm Eisen, an ethics expert who served in the Obama administration and helped draft the articles of impeachment against Trump for his first impeachment in 2019, said the justices had shown a brazen disregard for ethical appearances, because the organization’s mission is to move the law in a conservative direction.
    “While there is no legal obstacle to them showing up at the Federalist Society dinner, the appearances are awful,” Eisen wrote in an email.

    They are vile, evil people.

  48. Also, remember our recent conversation about whether the SCOTUS justices might have second thoughts about the abortion decisions after the election?
    Nope. This event happened after the election.
    From the article:

    Norm Eisen, an ethics expert who served in the Obama administration and helped draft the articles of impeachment against Trump for his first impeachment in 2019, said the justices had shown a brazen disregard for ethical appearances, because the organization’s mission is to move the law in a conservative direction.
    “While there is no legal obstacle to them showing up at the Federalist Society dinner, the appearances are awful,” Eisen wrote in an email.

    They are vile, evil people.

  49. To me, most Daily Kos diaries are so overstated that I rarely share them, but this one I believe makes a totally valid point: most of what Republicans do is, as the author says, “performance cruelty.” That is, cruelty because core Republican votes LIKE cruelty. Cruelty as the substance of their appeal.
    THey have been using performance cruelty for the bulk of their messaging for decades. It goes clear back to before Willie Horton, to “bums on welfare” to the war on drugs which was intended to lock up a lot of black men and hippies. In fact, performance cruelty is a pretty close description for what makes conservatives conservative going back to when racist Democrats were considered the most conservative people in our society. Barry Goldwater was at one time the state of the art in terms of rationalizing the institutionalization of cruelty.
    THe performance cruelty laid the groundwork for Trump who was a master at it. The danger is that the media might promote the message to the mushy middle that with Trump gone the Republican party has reverted to respectability.
    Nope. THe Republican party will revert to something worse than TRump: cruelty behind a smiley face–Reagan, in other words. They will continue to pack the courts with judges who use states’ rights and limited government as an excuse for institutionalizing cruelty, they will continue to gerrymander so they can get the House despite the fact that outside of deep red states most Americans reject their cruelty, and they will continue to use voter suppression to try to impose themselves on statewide offices.
    The party of “big government for me but not for thee” has to win elections somehow and they can’t do it by being honest about their agenda. Cruelty has worked very well for them when covered with a veneer of respectability.
    I think a post-Trump page is very dangerous and we are even more under threat of an authoritarian destruction of representative government than we have been this year and during the Trump years.
    We need to keep messaging: The Republican party is the party that says government is not the solution to problems so don’t expect them to do anything constructive about anything that actually matters. Expect them to continue to appeal to act in the theater of performance cruelty with different actors but the same old shit.

  50. To me, most Daily Kos diaries are so overstated that I rarely share them, but this one I believe makes a totally valid point: most of what Republicans do is, as the author says, “performance cruelty.” That is, cruelty because core Republican votes LIKE cruelty. Cruelty as the substance of their appeal.
    THey have been using performance cruelty for the bulk of their messaging for decades. It goes clear back to before Willie Horton, to “bums on welfare” to the war on drugs which was intended to lock up a lot of black men and hippies. In fact, performance cruelty is a pretty close description for what makes conservatives conservative going back to when racist Democrats were considered the most conservative people in our society. Barry Goldwater was at one time the state of the art in terms of rationalizing the institutionalization of cruelty.
    THe performance cruelty laid the groundwork for Trump who was a master at it. The danger is that the media might promote the message to the mushy middle that with Trump gone the Republican party has reverted to respectability.
    Nope. THe Republican party will revert to something worse than TRump: cruelty behind a smiley face–Reagan, in other words. They will continue to pack the courts with judges who use states’ rights and limited government as an excuse for institutionalizing cruelty, they will continue to gerrymander so they can get the House despite the fact that outside of deep red states most Americans reject their cruelty, and they will continue to use voter suppression to try to impose themselves on statewide offices.
    The party of “big government for me but not for thee” has to win elections somehow and they can’t do it by being honest about their agenda. Cruelty has worked very well for them when covered with a veneer of respectability.
    I think a post-Trump page is very dangerous and we are even more under threat of an authoritarian destruction of representative government than we have been this year and during the Trump years.
    We need to keep messaging: The Republican party is the party that says government is not the solution to problems so don’t expect them to do anything constructive about anything that actually matters. Expect them to continue to appeal to act in the theater of performance cruelty with different actors but the same old shit.

  53. “It’s looking increasingly like the question regarding the Georgia runoff will be: how much influence will Senator Manchin (and/or Senator Sinema) have going forward?”
    Manchin, that power-crazed Republican-lite shit, has already made a public statement about working with Republicans to reform or save Medicare (I can’t remember his exact words.)
    I hope Biden will simply call him up and say that anything that reduces benefits now or in the future will be vetoed. Period. And same fo SS and Medicaid.

  54. “It’s looking increasingly like the question regarding the Georgia runoff will be: how much influence will Senator Manchin (and/or Senator Sinema) have going forward?”
    Manchin, that power-crazed Republican-lite shit, has already made a public statement about working with Republicans to reform or save Medicare (I can’t remember his exact words.)
    I hope Biden will simply call him up and say that anything that reduces benefits now or in the future will be vetoed. Period. And same fo SS and Medicaid.

  55. Yeats was wrong. The center did hold
    wj, I am afraid this is your irrepressible optimism at work. The center is barely clinging on by its fingernails, and while I am not entirely as apocalyptic in my prediction as wonkie, nor entirely in agreement that “cruelty” is the underlying impetus (my own opinion is that in the case of their base it is weakness using what it perceives to be “strength” to subdue its own fear of inadequacy, and in the case of the leadership who pandered so cravenly to Trump their motivation is a) power and b) money), I do, however, completely agree with her when she says:
    they will continue to gerrymander so they can get the House despite the fact that outside of deep red states most Americans reject [their cruelty], and they will continue to use voter suppression to try to impose themselves on statewide offices
    The danger is very far from over. De Santis has already claimed a mission from God, and proved that (unlike Trump) he is capable of competence. American democracy is still on a knife edge, the reckoning has merely been delayed. The Dems still have their work cut out to get serious messaging together for 2024, and not just for the presidential election but for the means to pass meaningful legislation which will make your democracy safe.

  56. Yeats was wrong. The center did hold
    wj, I am afraid this is your irrepressible optimism at work. The center is barely clinging on by its fingernails, and while I am not entirely as apocalyptic in my prediction as wonkie, nor entirely in agreement that “cruelty” is the underlying impetus (my own opinion is that in the case of their base it is weakness using what it perceives to be “strength” to subdue its own fear of inadequacy, and in the case of the leadership who pandered so cravenly to Trump their motivation is a) power and b) money), I do, however, completely agree with her when she says:
    they will continue to gerrymander so they can get the House despite the fact that outside of deep red states most Americans reject [their cruelty], and they will continue to use voter suppression to try to impose themselves on statewide offices
    The danger is very far from over. De Santis has already claimed a mission from God, and proved that (unlike Trump) he is capable of competence. American democracy is still on a knife edge, the reckoning has merely been delayed. The Dems still have their work cut out to get serious messaging together for 2024, and not just for the presidential election but for the means to pass meaningful legislation which will make your democracy safe.

  57. performance cruelty is a pretty close description for what makes conservatives conservative
    I’m trying to recall what I have said here that could be construed as “performance cruelty.” Perhaps, wonkie, you can assist my failing memory here.
    Yeats was wrong. The center did hold
    wj, I am afraid this is your irrepressible optimism at work. The center is barely clinging on by its fingernails,
    Clinging on by it’s fingernails, hard to argue that. But clinging nonetheless.
    Only reflect how, not that long ago, our expectation was that the Republicans would recapture the Senate, probably with a couple of seats to spare. And a majority in the House was considered a lock.
    Yet here we are. McConnell is stuck being Minority Leader again. And if the Republicans do manage a majority in the House (far from certain as yet), it will be a matter of a couple of seats. For a party which includes a huge segment interested in performing, and not at all in governing. Leading that will be impossible; even for someone with greater skills than McCarthy has ever shown. Actually, even getting them to all agree on a Speaker looks a bit problematic.
    My irrepressible optimism is shown in my increasing feeling that even the House may not fall to the Republicans. The Democrats may well have an even narrower majority than currently, but still….

  58. performance cruelty is a pretty close description for what makes conservatives conservative
    I’m trying to recall what I have said here that could be construed as “performance cruelty.” Perhaps, wonkie, you can assist my failing memory here.
    Yeats was wrong. The center did hold
    wj, I am afraid this is your irrepressible optimism at work. The center is barely clinging on by its fingernails,
    Clinging on by it’s fingernails, hard to argue that. But clinging nonetheless.
    Only reflect how, not that long ago, our expectation was that the Republicans would recapture the Senate, probably with a couple of seats to spare. And a majority in the House was considered a lock.
    Yet here we are. McConnell is stuck being Minority Leader again. And if the Republicans do manage a majority in the House (far from certain as yet), it will be a matter of a couple of seats. For a party which includes a huge segment interested in performing, and not at all in governing. Leading that will be impossible; even for someone with greater skills than McCarthy has ever shown. Actually, even getting them to all agree on a Speaker looks a bit problematic.
    My irrepressible optimism is shown in my increasing feeling that even the House may not fall to the Republicans. The Democrats may well have an even narrower majority than currently, but still….

  59. nor entirely in agreement that “cruelty” is the underlying impetus (my own opinion is that in the case of their base it is weakness using what it perceives to be “strength” to subdue its own fear of inadequacy
    Nitpicking, but what’s the difference? This is like the classic observation that most bullies are making up for inadequacies (or feelings thereof).
    You get them to stop beating you up and maybe then, if you’re saintly enough, you can magnanimously try to get them to therapy. /snark

  60. nor entirely in agreement that “cruelty” is the underlying impetus (my own opinion is that in the case of their base it is weakness using what it perceives to be “strength” to subdue its own fear of inadequacy
    Nitpicking, but what’s the difference? This is like the classic observation that most bullies are making up for inadequacies (or feelings thereof).
    You get them to stop beating you up and maybe then, if you’re saintly enough, you can magnanimously try to get them to therapy. /snark

  61. For some bullies, the only effective therapy involves a 2×4 up side the head. Which is to say, the only plausible change is in their behavior; their psychology is beyond reach. The MAGAts appear to fall into that category.

  62. For some bullies, the only effective therapy involves a 2×4 up side the head. Which is to say, the only plausible change is in their behavior; their psychology is beyond reach. The MAGAts appear to fall into that category.

  63. Nitpicking, but what’s the difference?
    No difference in practice, the damage done is the same. But a difference in origin, so theoretically susceptible to different tactics in opposition. Also, at least in my worldview, it is always better to understand stuff properly, whether it has practical application or not. But get them to therapy? I agree, no way.

  64. Nitpicking, but what’s the difference?
    No difference in practice, the damage done is the same. But a difference in origin, so theoretically susceptible to different tactics in opposition. Also, at least in my worldview, it is always better to understand stuff properly, whether it has practical application or not. But get them to therapy? I agree, no way.

  65. The bit about the base walking away brought to mind our occasional conversations here about rebuilding the R party vs the unlikely rise of a 3rd party. What I want to know is, if they think the base is walking away, where do they think the base is going?
    What, exactly, qualifies as centralized GOP leadership these days? When you look at the people that the local GOP are attempting to send to DC it seems pretty clear that the poison is at the local level, and it will have the same toxic effect on any third-party that forms from Tea/Q/MAGA rejection of “party elites.” All their bluster is the same self-delusional flattery that keeps those “Which Marvel Avenger Are You” quizzes circulating. They fit their responses to the answer they want to hear, not to actual circumstances.
    If the right of the GOP attempts to split off, it will just be the GOP shedding its mask and embracing the authoritarian illiberal democracy that they yearn for in their bones. The establishment wing will try to keep the name and claim the history, but it won’t survive without its local activist base.
    So the actual third party that puts a stake in the heart of the Republican Party is either going to come from whatever centrist group arises to sweep up the remnants of the establishment conservative infrastructure (all those federal faithful in the military and in the DHS, etc.), or it’s going to come from some sort of shift on the left into new coalitions that break on different demographics than the left/right split.
    At least that’s how I see it. The sane conservatives I know have all walked away from the local party and the fever dreamers are committed to push on, and damn the consequences.

  66. The bit about the base walking away brought to mind our occasional conversations here about rebuilding the R party vs the unlikely rise of a 3rd party. What I want to know is, if they think the base is walking away, where do they think the base is going?
    What, exactly, qualifies as centralized GOP leadership these days? When you look at the people that the local GOP are attempting to send to DC it seems pretty clear that the poison is at the local level, and it will have the same toxic effect on any third-party that forms from Tea/Q/MAGA rejection of “party elites.” All their bluster is the same self-delusional flattery that keeps those “Which Marvel Avenger Are You” quizzes circulating. They fit their responses to the answer they want to hear, not to actual circumstances.
    If the right of the GOP attempts to split off, it will just be the GOP shedding its mask and embracing the authoritarian illiberal democracy that they yearn for in their bones. The establishment wing will try to keep the name and claim the history, but it won’t survive without its local activist base.
    So the actual third party that puts a stake in the heart of the Republican Party is either going to come from whatever centrist group arises to sweep up the remnants of the establishment conservative infrastructure (all those federal faithful in the military and in the DHS, etc.), or it’s going to come from some sort of shift on the left into new coalitions that break on different demographics than the left/right split.
    At least that’s how I see it. The sane conservatives I know have all walked away from the local party and the fever dreamers are committed to push on, and damn the consequences.

  69. Wj, I have never made a comment that was aimed at you.
    When I use the word “conservative” I am referring broadly to people who have enough of a platform in the media or as politicians that I am aware of their actions.
    Every election year the whole Republican party, comprised of people who call themselves conservatives, unite behind a party line of hate-mongering BS.
    Every primary season is a race to the bottom to see which self-proclaimed conservative can be the biggest hater and thereby win the hearts of voters who call themselves conservative.
    Every day Faux engages in performance cruelty.
    Performance cruelty as a way of getting votes has been standard with the Republican party for decades.
    Republican voters seem to like the message that they are the only good Americans The LOVE the message that Republican public figures are going to go be mean to other people on behalf of the R voters
    These people seem to think that they are conservatives
    I did not mean to attack you personally, wj. But, given the behavior of people who call themselves conservative not just now under Trump, but back to GOldwater, it does seem to me that cruelty has been a highly recurrent theme, from “bums on welfare” up to “Trans kids in bathrooms” and including, “Gee gerrymandering and voter suppression are bad! Too bad my conservative ideology prevents me from allowing the government to do anything about it.” which is the ideology of those who expect someone other than themselves to be harmed by their ideology.
    ANd even if TRump goes away, the Republican party will continue to use messaging design to hold someone up to be hated by their voters and compete to see who can please the base by saying the most disgusting mean things.

  70. Wj, I have never made a comment that was aimed at you.
    When I use the word “conservative” I am referring broadly to people who have enough of a platform in the media or as politicians that I am aware of their actions.
    Every election year the whole Republican party, comprised of people who call themselves conservatives, unite behind a party line of hate-mongering BS.
    Every primary season is a race to the bottom to see which self-proclaimed conservative can be the biggest hater and thereby win the hearts of voters who call themselves conservative.
    Every day Faux engages in performance cruelty.
    Performance cruelty as a way of getting votes has been standard with the Republican party for decades.
    Republican voters seem to like the message that they are the only good Americans The LOVE the message that Republican public figures are going to go be mean to other people on behalf of the R voters
    These people seem to think that they are conservatives
    I did not mean to attack you personally, wj. But, given the behavior of people who call themselves conservative not just now under Trump, but back to GOldwater, it does seem to me that cruelty has been a highly recurrent theme, from “bums on welfare” up to “Trans kids in bathrooms” and including, “Gee gerrymandering and voter suppression are bad! Too bad my conservative ideology prevents me from allowing the government to do anything about it.” which is the ideology of those who expect someone other than themselves to be harmed by their ideology.
    ANd even if TRump goes away, the Republican party will continue to use messaging design to hold someone up to be hated by their voters and compete to see who can please the base by saying the most disgusting mean things.

  71. Wj, I have never made a comment that was aimed at you.
    When I use the word “conservative” I am referring broadly to people who have enough of a platform in the media or as politicians that I am aware of their actions.
    Thanks for the clarification. (Although it seems to me that to accept their definition of “conservative” is essentially to let them define the terms of the debate. Which, as in all the other places where they attempt to do this, is IMHO the wrong way to go.)
    It does occur to me that, if I don’t like wonkie’s (misunderstood) definition, it might behoove to lay out what I see as a better definition. Basically, I would say that a conservative is someone who knows that he does not necessarily have the perfect answer to the problems before us. And that the answers that he (or anyone else) proposes may well have unintended, and unforeseen, consequences. As a result of which, he is reluctant to make sweeping changes.** He prefers increments changes, so that the negative consequences can be identified and addressed before the whole new pattern is locked in and becomes a new problem in itself.
    In short, someone who has a little humility. Something which, all too often, both the reactionaries and the liberals appear (from the outside anyway) to be short on.
    ** Of course, circumstances alter cases. Sometimes emergencies require big and fast changes. Not that those may lack unintended consequences. But sometimes the risk outweighs the potential downside.

  72. Wj, I have never made a comment that was aimed at you.
    When I use the word “conservative” I am referring broadly to people who have enough of a platform in the media or as politicians that I am aware of their actions.
    Thanks for the clarification. (Although it seems to me that to accept their definition of “conservative” is essentially to let them define the terms of the debate. Which, as in all the other places where they attempt to do this, is IMHO the wrong way to go.)
    It does occur to me that, if I don’t like wonkie’s (misunderstood) definition, it might behoove to lay out what I see as a better definition. Basically, I would say that a conservative is someone who knows that he does not necessarily have the perfect answer to the problems before us. And that the answers that he (or anyone else) proposes may well have unintended, and unforeseen, consequences. As a result of which, he is reluctant to make sweeping changes.** He prefers increments changes, so that the negative consequences can be identified and addressed before the whole new pattern is locked in and becomes a new problem in itself.
    In short, someone who has a little humility. Something which, all too often, both the reactionaries and the liberals appear (from the outside anyway) to be short on.
    ** Of course, circumstances alter cases. Sometimes emergencies require big and fast changes. Not that those may lack unintended consequences. But sometimes the risk outweighs the potential downside.

  73. wj – I hope these arguments about definitions are soothing to you because they are not going to make any self-proclaimed conservatives stop identifying as conservatives or any right wing media corporations brand themselves as anything but “conservative.” And I don’t see that it does anything to change the political trajectory of the battle to try to convince non-conservatives that those others have mislabeled themselves.
    It’s a doctrinal dispute. The opinions of those in other denominations and religions are not going to change the core disagreement among the faithful.

  74. wj – I hope these arguments about definitions are soothing to you because they are not going to make any self-proclaimed conservatives stop identifying as conservatives or any right wing media corporations brand themselves as anything but “conservative.” And I don’t see that it does anything to change the political trajectory of the battle to try to convince non-conservatives that those others have mislabeled themselves.
    It’s a doctrinal dispute. The opinions of those in other denominations and religions are not going to change the core disagreement among the faithful.

  75. If I could interject between nous and wj:
    wj is “conservative”.
    the MAGAts are “Conservative”.
    Pronounced the same, subtle difference in print, big difference in attitude.
    Maybe as large as the difference between “calories” and “Calories”.

  76. If I could interject between nous and wj:
    wj is “conservative”.
    the MAGAts are “Conservative”.
    Pronounced the same, subtle difference in print, big difference in attitude.
    Maybe as large as the difference between “calories” and “Calories”.

  77. A legal principle: better that a dozen guilty go unpunished than that a single innocent be hanged.
    A Regan/Bush/Dubya/Trump principle: better that a dozen billionaires go untaxed than that a single pauper get a freebie.
    That the above-named presidents all happened to be Republicans who proclaimed themselves conservatives is mere coincidence, I suppose.
    –TP

  78. A legal principle: better that a dozen guilty go unpunished than that a single innocent be hanged.
    A Regan/Bush/Dubya/Trump principle: better that a dozen billionaires go untaxed than that a single pauper get a freebie.
    That the above-named presidents all happened to be Republicans who proclaimed themselves conservatives is mere coincidence, I suppose.
    –TP

  79. hope these arguments about definitions are soothing to you because they are not going to make any self-proclaimed conservatives stop identifying as conservatives
    I can identify myself as a foot taller than I am. And therefore a prime candidate to play center in the NBA — with all the wealth that comes with that. Sadly, my claiming to be over 7 feet tall doesn’t make it so. No matter how loudly I self-identify that way.
    So yeah, I prefer we use language which lines up with objective reality. Whether GOP talking heads accept reality or not.

  80. hope these arguments about definitions are soothing to you because they are not going to make any self-proclaimed conservatives stop identifying as conservatives
    I can identify myself as a foot taller than I am. And therefore a prime candidate to play center in the NBA — with all the wealth that comes with that. Sadly, my claiming to be over 7 feet tall doesn’t make it so. No matter how loudly I self-identify that way.
    So yeah, I prefer we use language which lines up with objective reality. Whether GOP talking heads accept reality or not.

  83. nous, I had known that the vast majority of the GOP was all in on ignoring reality. If you wish to join them on that (albeit on little else), feel free.

  84. nous, I had known that the vast majority of the GOP was all in on ignoring reality. If you wish to join them on that (albeit on little else), feel free.

  85. I just don’t see the point in arguing about what the people doing the thing that needs stopping *get to call themselves* when I can spend my time arguing against the thing they are doing and trying to stop it.
    Whether or not they are True Scotsmen they need to be stopped, and insisting that they are not true Scotsmen doesn’t do anything to actually stop them.

  86. I just don’t see the point in arguing about what the people doing the thing that needs stopping *get to call themselves* when I can spend my time arguing against the thing they are doing and trying to stop it.
    Whether or not they are True Scotsmen they need to be stopped, and insisting that they are not true Scotsmen doesn’t do anything to actually stop them.

  87. What is “reality” where language is concerned? “Refute” used to mean “prove false by means of logic”, but I have learned with some bitterness that it would be unwise now to use it that way, if one were keen to be properly understood. Ditto disinterested v uninterested, and on and on ad infinitum. One has to pick one’s terminology with an eye to the understanding, age or education of one’s audience.

  88. What is “reality” where language is concerned? “Refute” used to mean “prove false by means of logic”, but I have learned with some bitterness that it would be unwise now to use it that way, if one were keen to be properly understood. Ditto disinterested v uninterested, and on and on ad infinitum. One has to pick one’s terminology with an eye to the understanding, age or education of one’s audience.

  91. I can identify myself as a foot taller than I am. And therefore a prime candidate to play center in the NBA — with all the wealth that comes with that. Sadly, my claiming to be over 7 feet tall doesn’t make it so. No matter how loudly I self-identify that way.
    If you identified yourself as 7 feet tall, you would be a party of 1. The people self-identifying as “conservatives” number in the tens of millions. The people accepting that labeling for purposes of conversation and politics number in the tens if not hundreds of millions.
    These things are not equivalent.
    You say that nous is joining the vast majority of the GOP in “ignoring reality” because you don’t agree with the application of a word that is understood by almost everyone, now, to mean a certain thing in our politics.
    I would say that *you* are abandoning reality in thinking that the older, stricter definition matters in the least.
    Call it a nickname, call it a misnomer, call it a slur, call it what you want, but everyone (okay, almost everyone) knows what it means in the context of our current politics.
    I say this with no ill feeling, only bemusement. And, as nous says, it’s at best entertainment, since I don’t think it does anything to move us forward toward sanity.

  92. I can identify myself as a foot taller than I am. And therefore a prime candidate to play center in the NBA — with all the wealth that comes with that. Sadly, my claiming to be over 7 feet tall doesn’t make it so. No matter how loudly I self-identify that way.
    If you identified yourself as 7 feet tall, you would be a party of 1. The people self-identifying as “conservatives” number in the tens of millions. The people accepting that labeling for purposes of conversation and politics number in the tens if not hundreds of millions.
    These things are not equivalent.
    You say that nous is joining the vast majority of the GOP in “ignoring reality” because you don’t agree with the application of a word that is understood by almost everyone, now, to mean a certain thing in our politics.
    I would say that *you* are abandoning reality in thinking that the older, stricter definition matters in the least.
    Call it a nickname, call it a misnomer, call it a slur, call it what you want, but everyone (okay, almost everyone) knows what it means in the context of our current politics.
    I say this with no ill feeling, only bemusement. And, as nous says, it’s at best entertainment, since I don’t think it does anything to move us forward toward sanity.

  93. Speaking of “bemusement” (a condition with which I am familiar),
    GftNC, what in the world has happened to “refute?” I am unfamiliar with its redefinition.

  94. Speaking of “bemusement” (a condition with which I am familiar),
    GftNC, what in the world has happened to “refute?” I am unfamiliar with its redefinition.

  95. ral: I only discovered it during and after the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. His lawyer kept saying that he refuted the allegation, I scoffed at that (remembering from Philosophy at university what actual refutation entailed), got into a fight with bc on here about it, but then was forced to realise that the new meaning of “rejected” or “contradicted”, or actually “denied” is now in common use, and in some dictionaries.
    And similarly, disinterested now seems to mean uninterested, flaunt is often used for flout, and we even had an instance on a decent site recently where guttural was used to mean “from the gut”.
    IMO, it’s all a significant loss. Losing nuance in language is connected to losing nuance in public discourse.
    On the other hand, I do realise I am turning into one of those old-timers who go on about the good old days, and how everything used to be better. That’s not right, either.

  96. ral: I only discovered it during and after the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. His lawyer kept saying that he refuted the allegation, I scoffed at that (remembering from Philosophy at university what actual refutation entailed), got into a fight with bc on here about it, but then was forced to realise that the new meaning of “rejected” or “contradicted”, or actually “denied” is now in common use, and in some dictionaries.
    And similarly, disinterested now seems to mean uninterested, flaunt is often used for flout, and we even had an instance on a decent site recently where guttural was used to mean “from the gut”.
    IMO, it’s all a significant loss. Losing nuance in language is connected to losing nuance in public discourse.
    On the other hand, I do realise I am turning into one of those old-timers who go on about the good old days, and how everything used to be better. That’s not right, either.

  97. GftNC, I think what has happened is that people who wished to be perceived as highly educated (as, oh horror, part of the elite) tried to use a vocabulary which they didn’t actually understand. Even when they were supposedly well educated lawyers, for whom words are usually the core tools of the trade.
    Sometimes, we lost nuance as those misusages became widespread. Sometimes (“gutteral” — LOL!) words acquired meanings remote from their origin. But nothing requires those of us who know better to embrace those errors. Especially when we aren’t attempting to communicate with the “great unwashed”.

  98. GftNC, I think what has happened is that people who wished to be perceived as highly educated (as, oh horror, part of the elite) tried to use a vocabulary which they didn’t actually understand. Even when they were supposedly well educated lawyers, for whom words are usually the core tools of the trade.
    Sometimes, we lost nuance as those misusages became widespread. Sometimes (“gutteral” — LOL!) words acquired meanings remote from their origin. But nothing requires those of us who know better to embrace those errors. Especially when we aren’t attempting to communicate with the “great unwashed”.

  99. Actually, a lot of the linguistic drift going on is a product of the democratization of media access. Before the Internet our linguistic worlds were far smaller and more insular and a lot of these words were things most people just didn’t encounter in their daily lives. A much smaller segment of the population had access to a broad, international audience, and the new access channels have no meaningful gatekeepers for content or quality.
    Our moment reminds me a lot of the start of the Early Modern period and the growth of vernacular literature in the moment before the normative influence of dictionaries.
    And a lot of the people who are using those words with less precision *are* highly educated, just not particularly well or widely read. It’s a marker for me of the institutional influence of STEM and the neglect of the humanities.

  100. Actually, a lot of the linguistic drift going on is a product of the democratization of media access. Before the Internet our linguistic worlds were far smaller and more insular and a lot of these words were things most people just didn’t encounter in their daily lives. A much smaller segment of the population had access to a broad, international audience, and the new access channels have no meaningful gatekeepers for content or quality.
    Our moment reminds me a lot of the start of the Early Modern period and the growth of vernacular literature in the moment before the normative influence of dictionaries.
    And a lot of the people who are using those words with less precision *are* highly educated, just not particularly well or widely read. It’s a marker for me of the institutional influence of STEM and the neglect of the humanities.

  101. Random reactions —
    1. As much of a nitpicky grammar and usage nerd as I am, I also know that language never stands still. If it did, we would all be speaking Indo-European. Or those of us who cared to read books would be reading Beowulf in Old English. Or … take whatever stopping point in the past you’d like.
    2. I’m sure I’ve said this more than once here, but I think people use words and pronunciations that they think the cool kids use — it really just comes down to that. “Cool” — in the broadest sense. So when one “cool” person (however defined in any individual’s world) uses a word or pronoun in a non-standard or even just regional way, other people may copy it, and then it spreads.
    3. nous’s STEM point: I spent my childhood reading, almost literally all my waking hours, including looking up the meaning and pronunciation of every word I didn’t know, reading about the subtle differences among synonyms, etc. Hence I got spectacular SATs and got to go to a famous STEM school. 😉
    But more seriously, besides being a programmer, I was dragooned as a copy editor at my place of employment, where most of the people were math nerds. They were very smart, competent people in their way, and yet most of them couldn’t write a polished, coherent paragraph to save their lives. I attributed this not only to the fact that they weren’t avid readers, but also to the way reading and writing had been taught during the era when they were going through school. I knew (know) many people who weren’t all that brilliant at math or in school generally, who could write much better than my colleagues.
    It’s complicated….

  102. Random reactions —
    1. As much of a nitpicky grammar and usage nerd as I am, I also know that language never stands still. If it did, we would all be speaking Indo-European. Or those of us who cared to read books would be reading Beowulf in Old English. Or … take whatever stopping point in the past you’d like.
    2. I’m sure I’ve said this more than once here, but I think people use words and pronunciations that they think the cool kids use — it really just comes down to that. “Cool” — in the broadest sense. So when one “cool” person (however defined in any individual’s world) uses a word or pronoun in a non-standard or even just regional way, other people may copy it, and then it spreads.
    3. nous’s STEM point: I spent my childhood reading, almost literally all my waking hours, including looking up the meaning and pronunciation of every word I didn’t know, reading about the subtle differences among synonyms, etc. Hence I got spectacular SATs and got to go to a famous STEM school. 😉
    But more seriously, besides being a programmer, I was dragooned as a copy editor at my place of employment, where most of the people were math nerds. They were very smart, competent people in their way, and yet most of them couldn’t write a polished, coherent paragraph to save their lives. I attributed this not only to the fact that they weren’t avid readers, but also to the way reading and writing had been taught during the era when they were going through school. I knew (know) many people who weren’t all that brilliant at math or in school generally, who could write much better than my colleagues.
    It’s complicated….

  105. Question of the day:
    if anyone here (or elsewhere) characterized members of a racial, religious, or ethnic minority the way nous does STEM graduates, what would the reaction be?

  106. Question of the day:
    if anyone here (or elsewhere) characterized members of a racial, religious, or ethnic minority the way nous does STEM graduates, what would the reaction be?

  107. dragooned
    Favourite word of the day! Would young’uns now think it was to do with dragons? Or pirates? (I may be excitedly thinking of doubloons…oh, I now see from a cursory check that the origin may be to do with a weapon originally called a dragon after all).
    I have to say that nous’s comment seemed to me quite persuasive, and not insulting, but although Janie can hardly be considered typical of STEM people (look at her PhD for God’s sake), she is right when she says it’s complicated. Everything is, I guess.

  108. dragooned
    Favourite word of the day! Would young’uns now think it was to do with dragons? Or pirates? (I may be excitedly thinking of doubloons…oh, I now see from a cursory check that the origin may be to do with a weapon originally called a dragon after all).
    I have to say that nous’s comment seemed to me quite persuasive, and not insulting, but although Janie can hardly be considered typical of STEM people (look at her PhD for God’s sake), she is right when she says it’s complicated. Everything is, I guess.

  109. Much as I deplore the use of “refute” to mean “deny”, one must recognise that language evolves. Shakespeare might wince at the changed meanings of “protest”, “revolve”, “wink”, “fact”, “ecstasy”…
    I doubt that STEM has got anything to do with it. The pattern recognition skills seen in scientists are equally applicable to analysis of language. (I’ve been consulted by professional copy editors about finer points of usage.)
    A few days ago the BBC wrote about the election of the 25-year-old Maxwell Frost “…his presence in the House of Representatives stands to lower Congress’s median age – the highest in two decades – by quite a lot.” Letting arts types loose with scientific terms, there’s a problem.

  110. Much as I deplore the use of “refute” to mean “deny”, one must recognise that language evolves. Shakespeare might wince at the changed meanings of “protest”, “revolve”, “wink”, “fact”, “ecstasy”…
    I doubt that STEM has got anything to do with it. The pattern recognition skills seen in scientists are equally applicable to analysis of language. (I’ve been consulted by professional copy editors about finer points of usage.)
    A few days ago the BBC wrote about the election of the 25-year-old Maxwell Frost “…his presence in the House of Representatives stands to lower Congress’s median age – the highest in two decades – by quite a lot.” Letting arts types loose with scientific terms, there’s a problem.

  113. More random reactions:
    1. Speaking only for my own STEM college, the “humanities requirement” when I was an undergraduate amounted to one course per semester (out of 4 or 5 typically). These courses were valued at 9 units; most STEM courses were valued at 12 units. (“Units” in theory represented the number of in- and out-of-class hours a student was likely to spend on the course. Ha.)
    “Humanities” meant literature, history, and philosophy. That’s a lot of territory packed into 20% or less of one’s coursework.
    I don’t know what other colleges were like 50 years ago, much less now.
    2. To me, good writing combines elements of music and logic as well as language. When I spend time on a piece of writing, I am hearing it in my head, and in particular I’m paying attention to the way the flow of my sentences embodies the logic of the thoughts I’m trying to convey. Pro Bono’s mention of pattern recognition skills seems relevant. But also, I think people who read a lot are far more likely to be able to recognize and at least attempt to reproduce such effects. I would make a long analogy to the expansion of my experience of music over the past couple of years, but I don’t have time at the moment.
    3. Related to #2: try reading Dickens, George Eliot, GBS, or (to take it to the limit) Faulkner, and then read a modern novel. Look at the sentence structures. Which do you think gives you more practice at understanding how thoughts and logic are encoded into sentences and paragraphs?

  114. More random reactions:
    1. Speaking only for my own STEM college, the “humanities requirement” when I was an undergraduate amounted to one course per semester (out of 4 or 5 typically). These courses were valued at 9 units; most STEM courses were valued at 12 units. (“Units” in theory represented the number of in- and out-of-class hours a student was likely to spend on the course. Ha.)
    “Humanities” meant literature, history, and philosophy. That’s a lot of territory packed into 20% or less of one’s coursework.
    I don’t know what other colleges were like 50 years ago, much less now.
    2. To me, good writing combines elements of music and logic as well as language. When I spend time on a piece of writing, I am hearing it in my head, and in particular I’m paying attention to the way the flow of my sentences embodies the logic of the thoughts I’m trying to convey. Pro Bono’s mention of pattern recognition skills seems relevant. But also, I think people who read a lot are far more likely to be able to recognize and at least attempt to reproduce such effects. I would make a long analogy to the expansion of my experience of music over the past couple of years, but I don’t have time at the moment.
    3. Related to #2: try reading Dickens, George Eliot, GBS, or (to take it to the limit) Faulkner, and then read a modern novel. Look at the sentence structures. Which do you think gives you more practice at understanding how thoughts and logic are encoded into sentences and paragraphs?

  115. And that the answers that he (or anyone else) proposes may well have unintended, and unforeseen, consequences…
    This is a standard conservative trope that what, begs the question? Assumes the conclusion? I’m no expert on logical fallacies, but I know one when I see one. Why it’s as if current public policy can, by definition, have no “unintended consequences”. Fancy that!

  116. And that the answers that he (or anyone else) proposes may well have unintended, and unforeseen, consequences…
    This is a standard conservative trope that what, begs the question? Assumes the conclusion? I’m no expert on logical fallacies, but I know one when I see one. Why it’s as if current public policy can, by definition, have no “unintended consequences”. Fancy that!

  119. Re STEM and writing. Reading is important. So is writing, and someone marking it up, all the way from grammar to organization.
    When I was a senior in college the CS department hired me to be the lab TA for Numerical Analysis I (they didn’t feel comfortable with the strength of any of their grad students on the math end of things). The lab was traditionally a program per week, based on some part of what had been covered in the lectures. To that, I added a one-page write-up on the program. What worked the way you thought it would? What was a surprise? Should different algorithms have been stressed, and why?
    At the end of the semester a group of the students came to my tiny (literally, a converted closet) office. “We hated you at the beginning of the semester. Writing? Actual sentences, and spelling, and organization? We’re here to say we were wrong, and realize now why you said that communication was a critical skill.”
    During my career, I spent a couple of years as a referee for a technical journal. When I agreed to do it, I didn’t understand why there was a category for “Paper is unreadable to the point evaluating it is impossible.” I found out.

  120. Re STEM and writing. Reading is important. So is writing, and someone marking it up, all the way from grammar to organization.
    When I was a senior in college the CS department hired me to be the lab TA for Numerical Analysis I (they didn’t feel comfortable with the strength of any of their grad students on the math end of things). The lab was traditionally a program per week, based on some part of what had been covered in the lectures. To that, I added a one-page write-up on the program. What worked the way you thought it would? What was a surprise? Should different algorithms have been stressed, and why?
    At the end of the semester a group of the students came to my tiny (literally, a converted closet) office. “We hated you at the beginning of the semester. Writing? Actual sentences, and spelling, and organization? We’re here to say we were wrong, and realize now why you said that communication was a critical skill.”
    During my career, I spent a couple of years as a referee for a technical journal. When I agreed to do it, I didn’t understand why there was a category for “Paper is unreadable to the point evaluating it is impossible.” I found out.

  123. Michael Cain’s comment reminds me that my best writing teacher in all the years was a civil engineering professor, as much because he showed me how much I had yet to learn as because he taught me anything specific about writing.

  124. Michael Cain’s comment reminds me that my best writing teacher in all the years was a civil engineering professor, as much because he showed me how much I had yet to learn as because he taught me anything specific about writing.

  127. I was taken aback recently to be told that Korean was beginning to develop tones
    “Horrified” would be the correct reaction to any language starting to involve tones! (It is probably the biggest single feature which prevents Chinese ever becoming a world-wide language of choice.)

  128. I was taken aback recently to be told that Korean was beginning to develop tones
    “Horrified” would be the correct reaction to any language starting to involve tones! (It is probably the biggest single feature which prevents Chinese ever becoming a world-wide language of choice.)

  129. I. remember the olden days.
    A. When we had to write up an outline.
    1. Before writing the essay.
    Writing from an outline would definitely lead to far better essays. Or any other written communication. More people should do so today.

  130. I. remember the olden days.
    A. When we had to write up an outline.
    1. Before writing the essay.
    Writing from an outline would definitely lead to far better essays. Or any other written communication. More people should do so today.

  131. Question of the day:
    if anyone here (or elsewhere) characterized members of a racial, religious, or ethnic minority the way nous does STEM graduates, what would the reaction be?
    I don’t think it’s about STEM graduates. It’s about curricula, I’m guessing starting at educational levels well before post-secondary, affecting everyone’s education.
    I doubt that STEM has got anything to do with it. The pattern recognition skills seen in scientists are equally applicable to analysis of language.
    Kind of the same response as above. It’s not even necessarily that scientist are particularly bad at analysing language. It’s that people in general are being taught STEM-oriented subjects at the expense of rigorous language instruction starting at an early age.
    (I write this as a degreed EE, so it’s not like I’m anti-STEM.)

  132. Question of the day:
    if anyone here (or elsewhere) characterized members of a racial, religious, or ethnic minority the way nous does STEM graduates, what would the reaction be?
    I don’t think it’s about STEM graduates. It’s about curricula, I’m guessing starting at educational levels well before post-secondary, affecting everyone’s education.
    I doubt that STEM has got anything to do with it. The pattern recognition skills seen in scientists are equally applicable to analysis of language.
    Kind of the same response as above. It’s not even necessarily that scientist are particularly bad at analysing language. It’s that people in general are being taught STEM-oriented subjects at the expense of rigorous language instruction starting at an early age.
    (I write this as a degreed EE, so it’s not like I’m anti-STEM.)

  133. To overturn a 50-year-old precedent is not to conserve. The six Republican politicians posing as justices are reactionaries, not conservatives.

  134. To overturn a 50-year-old precedent is not to conserve. The six Republican politicians posing as justices are reactionaries, not conservatives.

  135. people in general are being taught STEM-oriented subjects at the expense of rigorous language instruction starting at an early age.
    Perhaps things have changed in the last half century. But as I recall, everybody got the same education in English, etc. thru high school. So I’m not clear on where “starting at an early age” comes from.

  136. people in general are being taught STEM-oriented subjects at the expense of rigorous language instruction starting at an early age.
    Perhaps things have changed in the last half century. But as I recall, everybody got the same education in English, etc. thru high school. So I’m not clear on where “starting at an early age” comes from.

  139. wj: Perhaps things have changed in the last half century. But as I recall, everybody got the same education in English, etc. thru high school. So I’m not clear on where “starting at an early age” comes from.
    Even when I was a kid in a poor, tiny Catholic high school in the latter part of the sixties, there were three tracks: academic, business, and general. The groupings for classes like English weren’t completely rigid (e.g. because I was in the band, and that messed up my schedule, I was in several classes with the non-academic track kids). But although the curriculum for the different tracks might have been superficially the same, the teaching was aimed rather differently.
    Also, most non-academic track kids didn’t take Latin or French, our only foreign language options. Nor did they take the same math or science that the academic track kids took. I think the foreign language instruction in particular made a big difference in a lot of kids’ capabilities in English — certainly it did for me.
    Now there are AP classes, honors classes, all sorts of ways that kids get tracked differently and taught differently.
    nous may know more than I do, but there was also the whole language movement, which I hold responsible for a lot of the bad writing I had to edit when I was supposed to be writing computer programs. But I know very little about that so I will stop there.
    And if wasn’t only high school. We were tracked, by perceived ability, into reading groups from when I was in first grade (Brownies, Elves, and Fairies). If you don’t think those three groups were taught differently, guess again.
    Even so, as I said earlier, I think most kids then learned to write better than kids did during the whole language era. I could be wrong…again, nous probably knows a lot more about this. And I don’t really know the balance between language skills and STEM classes now. I just know that at least in my little corner of Ohio, what you (wj) said about “the same education in English” absolutely did not hold, from first grade on through 12th.

  140. wj: Perhaps things have changed in the last half century. But as I recall, everybody got the same education in English, etc. thru high school. So I’m not clear on where “starting at an early age” comes from.
    Even when I was a kid in a poor, tiny Catholic high school in the latter part of the sixties, there were three tracks: academic, business, and general. The groupings for classes like English weren’t completely rigid (e.g. because I was in the band, and that messed up my schedule, I was in several classes with the non-academic track kids). But although the curriculum for the different tracks might have been superficially the same, the teaching was aimed rather differently.
    Also, most non-academic track kids didn’t take Latin or French, our only foreign language options. Nor did they take the same math or science that the academic track kids took. I think the foreign language instruction in particular made a big difference in a lot of kids’ capabilities in English — certainly it did for me.
    Now there are AP classes, honors classes, all sorts of ways that kids get tracked differently and taught differently.
    nous may know more than I do, but there was also the whole language movement, which I hold responsible for a lot of the bad writing I had to edit when I was supposed to be writing computer programs. But I know very little about that so I will stop there.
    And if wasn’t only high school. We were tracked, by perceived ability, into reading groups from when I was in first grade (Brownies, Elves, and Fairies). If you don’t think those three groups were taught differently, guess again.
    Even so, as I said earlier, I think most kids then learned to write better than kids did during the whole language era. I could be wrong…again, nous probably knows a lot more about this. And I don’t really know the balance between language skills and STEM classes now. I just know that at least in my little corner of Ohio, what you (wj) said about “the same education in English” absolutely did not hold, from first grade on through 12th.

  141. I am reminded of a famous passage about “The Two Cultures” by C.P. Snow:

    A good many times I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists. Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare’s? I now believe that if I had asked an even simpler question – such as, What do you mean by mass, or acceleration, which is the scientific equivalent of saying, Can you read? – not more than one in ten of the highly educated would have felt that I was speaking the same language. So the great edifice of modern physics goes up, and the majority of the cleverest people in the western world have about as much insight into it as their neolithic ancestors would have had.

    There has been lots of controversy about this for over half a century. I am not equipped to comment on that. But I can say, based on personal experience, that most of humanity is indifferent to and ignorant of both “cultures”.

  142. I am reminded of a famous passage about “The Two Cultures” by C.P. Snow:

    A good many times I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists. Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare’s? I now believe that if I had asked an even simpler question – such as, What do you mean by mass, or acceleration, which is the scientific equivalent of saying, Can you read? – not more than one in ten of the highly educated would have felt that I was speaking the same language. So the great edifice of modern physics goes up, and the majority of the cleverest people in the western world have about as much insight into it as their neolithic ancestors would have had.

    There has been lots of controversy about this for over half a century. I am not equipped to comment on that. But I can say, based on personal experience, that most of humanity is indifferent to and ignorant of both “cultures”.

  143. Re STEM and writing. Reading is important. So is writing, and someone marking it up, all the way from grammar to organization.
    This is true to an extent for some students. It often works especially well for self-taught coders and other autodidacts.
    But for it to work at all the person in question needs to have the motivation to care about the nuance and about communicating that nuance. And for a lot of students, especially those in STEM who are there to credential and to build things that are cool, they are far more interested in puzzling out the doing than they are in communicating about the doing. And that is all they really need to do to graduate and find employment.
    This has become a greater marker since standardized testing hollowed out language arts and turned them into high stakes template writing with pre-digested content. It’s baked into a couple generations.
    My own writing instruction splits the writing process up into stages a developmental draft (some combination of zero draft and rough outline or projected organization), a working manuscript, and a final submission. I don’t comment on grammar until after the penultimate draft. The research says that whenever we try to put together information in new ways that our supporting language skills go to shit, so I try to force them through finding a way to express the information and get that stable before putting them back through the tidying up step.
    Passive voice stuff gets dealt with earlier because it usually heralds some sort of underlying logical struggle that needs teasing out, but word choice or stylistic stuff gets no attention until they have actual information to convey.
    Question of the day:
    if anyone here (or elsewhere) characterized members of a racial, religious, or ethnic minority the way nous does STEM graduates, what would the reaction be?
    Zing! Ha!
    Scholars talk about linguistic markers and discourse communities all the time. It’s no different than pointing out that certain linguistic backgrounds have difficulty with pronoun gender, or with direct articles, or the like. It is a description, not a value judgment, and it is a selection effect, not an inherent quality.
    I also specified that they were highly educated and I don’t judge their ability to communicate based on my own tendencies towards belletrism. All I am saying is that when I ask a room full of students about what they read, the *self-identified* STEM specialists tend to be much more narrow in their reading habits and literary interests. How we train our personal lexicons and the sort of difference that matters to our in-group communication really do shape the sorts of language at which we become proficient.
    Full confession, Tony P., I can’t stand CP Snow’s take on the Arts/Sciences debate. I see no reason for the divide.

  144. Re STEM and writing. Reading is important. So is writing, and someone marking it up, all the way from grammar to organization.
    This is true to an extent for some students. It often works especially well for self-taught coders and other autodidacts.
    But for it to work at all the person in question needs to have the motivation to care about the nuance and about communicating that nuance. And for a lot of students, especially those in STEM who are there to credential and to build things that are cool, they are far more interested in puzzling out the doing than they are in communicating about the doing. And that is all they really need to do to graduate and find employment.
    This has become a greater marker since standardized testing hollowed out language arts and turned them into high stakes template writing with pre-digested content. It’s baked into a couple generations.
    My own writing instruction splits the writing process up into stages a developmental draft (some combination of zero draft and rough outline or projected organization), a working manuscript, and a final submission. I don’t comment on grammar until after the penultimate draft. The research says that whenever we try to put together information in new ways that our supporting language skills go to shit, so I try to force them through finding a way to express the information and get that stable before putting them back through the tidying up step.
    Passive voice stuff gets dealt with earlier because it usually heralds some sort of underlying logical struggle that needs teasing out, but word choice or stylistic stuff gets no attention until they have actual information to convey.
    Question of the day:
    if anyone here (or elsewhere) characterized members of a racial, religious, or ethnic minority the way nous does STEM graduates, what would the reaction be?
    Zing! Ha!
    Scholars talk about linguistic markers and discourse communities all the time. It’s no different than pointing out that certain linguistic backgrounds have difficulty with pronoun gender, or with direct articles, or the like. It is a description, not a value judgment, and it is a selection effect, not an inherent quality.
    I also specified that they were highly educated and I don’t judge their ability to communicate based on my own tendencies towards belletrism. All I am saying is that when I ask a room full of students about what they read, the *self-identified* STEM specialists tend to be much more narrow in their reading habits and literary interests. How we train our personal lexicons and the sort of difference that matters to our in-group communication really do shape the sorts of language at which we become proficient.
    Full confession, Tony P., I can’t stand CP Snow’s take on the Arts/Sciences debate. I see no reason for the divide.

  145. In my high school, we had three tracks as well. But the honors track (for those going to high end universities) included 4 years of English. And, of course, anyone aiming for university was expected to take at least 2, usually 4, years of a foreign language. If there was any sorting by projected major (i.e. STEM vs social science or humanities), it wasn’t apparent. Not to mention that, in those days, nobody had much of a clue as to what they would end up majoring in; certainly the school did not.
    Now far be it from me to defend the notable ineptness of technical people when it comes to writing. No matter what (technical) position I have held over the years, I’ve ended up doing lots of technical editing — which was more about editing the English used than about the technical content. So my dispute wasn’t there; just with the assertion that some kind of sorting, allowing future STEM majors to avoid English classes, was happening at some early age.

  146. In my high school, we had three tracks as well. But the honors track (for those going to high end universities) included 4 years of English. And, of course, anyone aiming for university was expected to take at least 2, usually 4, years of a foreign language. If there was any sorting by projected major (i.e. STEM vs social science or humanities), it wasn’t apparent. Not to mention that, in those days, nobody had much of a clue as to what they would end up majoring in; certainly the school did not.
    Now far be it from me to defend the notable ineptness of technical people when it comes to writing. No matter what (technical) position I have held over the years, I’ve ended up doing lots of technical editing — which was more about editing the English used than about the technical content. So my dispute wasn’t there; just with the assertion that some kind of sorting, allowing future STEM majors to avoid English classes, was happening at some early age.

  147. There may be no reason (or rather, justification) for it, nous, but it certainly exists, at least in the UK. It is perfectly possible, common even, for a person to study no maths past the age of 16 and very little science after 14. This applies even to clever kids, at good schools, who go on to excellent universities and then further and further education. I know very eminent scholars in the fields of arts and literature who would be unable to answer Snow’s questions, and who don’t see any problem with that at all.

  148. There may be no reason (or rather, justification) for it, nous, but it certainly exists, at least in the UK. It is perfectly possible, common even, for a person to study no maths past the age of 16 and very little science after 14. This applies even to clever kids, at good schools, who go on to excellent universities and then further and further education. I know very eminent scholars in the fields of arts and literature who would be unable to answer Snow’s questions, and who don’t see any problem with that at all.

  149. There has been lots of controversy about this for over half a century. I am not equipped to comment on that. But I can say, based on personal experience, that most of humanity is indifferent to and ignorant of both “cultures”.
    Ignorant of the details, yes. Indifferent to the results? They care very much that the bridge stands, even though they don’t understand the details of design or construction. They care very much at the end of Romeo and Juliet, or about the music that helps move them in Star Wars, even though they don’t understand the details of design or construction of either.

  150. There has been lots of controversy about this for over half a century. I am not equipped to comment on that. But I can say, based on personal experience, that most of humanity is indifferent to and ignorant of both “cultures”.
    Ignorant of the details, yes. Indifferent to the results? They care very much that the bridge stands, even though they don’t understand the details of design or construction. They care very much at the end of Romeo and Juliet, or about the music that helps move them in Star Wars, even though they don’t understand the details of design or construction of either.

  151. Schools have had all sorts of incentives to try to raise their STEM standards (since they are tied to our ideas of national economic competitiveness) and that has resulted in a big budget shift at the K-12 level away from art and music classes (since those things don’t directly move the bar for testing results or qualify the district for additional funding).
    Meanwhile, we are seeing worsening shortages in HEAL (health, education, administration, literacy) fields along with high burnout and low morale. No one wants to be a literacy teacher. They get low pay, no agency, disdain for having chosen a “soft” major, and blame for the failings of thirty years of a bad education model.
    And after the COVID backlash against health care workers and educators? Who would want a piece of that?
    Something needs to be done about this.
    It’s cultural priorities like these that lead people to not care about reading. They have never been given a reason to see value in it.

  152. Schools have had all sorts of incentives to try to raise their STEM standards (since they are tied to our ideas of national economic competitiveness) and that has resulted in a big budget shift at the K-12 level away from art and music classes (since those things don’t directly move the bar for testing results or qualify the district for additional funding).
    Meanwhile, we are seeing worsening shortages in HEAL (health, education, administration, literacy) fields along with high burnout and low morale. No one wants to be a literacy teacher. They get low pay, no agency, disdain for having chosen a “soft” major, and blame for the failings of thirty years of a bad education model.
    And after the COVID backlash against health care workers and educators? Who would want a piece of that?
    Something needs to be done about this.
    It’s cultural priorities like these that lead people to not care about reading. They have never been given a reason to see value in it.

  153. …just with the assertion that some kind of sorting, allowing future STEM majors to avoid English classes, was happening at some early age.
    Quote, please.

  154. …just with the assertion that some kind of sorting, allowing future STEM majors to avoid English classes, was happening at some early age.
    Quote, please.

  155. There may be no reason (or rather, justification) for it, nous, but it certainly exists, at least in the UK. It is perfectly possible, common even, for a person to study no maths past the age of 16 and very little science after 14.
    All y’all Brits are wacky. And I’ll venture a guess that it has something to do with the deep and abiding effects of classism?

  156. There may be no reason (or rather, justification) for it, nous, but it certainly exists, at least in the UK. It is perfectly possible, common even, for a person to study no maths past the age of 16 and very little science after 14.
    All y’all Brits are wacky. And I’ll venture a guess that it has something to do with the deep and abiding effects of classism?

  157. This conversation is why I love ObWi!
    First, to the question of “refute,” I find that usage execrable, since there is a clear, accurate term with which any lawyer should be familiar, “rebut” (as in “a rebuttal”). I have worked with lawyers. This misuse is a perfect example of the maxim, “not everyone graduates in the top 50% of the class.”
    The importance of clear communication in a technical field has been driven home to me over and over in my career. Recently, in my current gig, I lent my copy of the Mythical Man-Month to a manager. A central argument and prescription for success in that book is the vital need for clear, well ordered communication in a large technical project.

  158. This conversation is why I love ObWi!
    First, to the question of “refute,” I find that usage execrable, since there is a clear, accurate term with which any lawyer should be familiar, “rebut” (as in “a rebuttal”). I have worked with lawyers. This misuse is a perfect example of the maxim, “not everyone graduates in the top 50% of the class.”
    The importance of clear communication in a technical field has been driven home to me over and over in my career. Recently, in my current gig, I lent my copy of the Mythical Man-Month to a manager. A central argument and prescription for success in that book is the vital need for clear, well ordered communication in a large technical project.

  159. Meanwhile, we are seeing worsening shortages in HEAL (health, education, administration, literacy) fields along with high burnout and low morale.
    Not least because these professions, which covid revealed to be critical, are paid extremely little. Pay those folks a living wage, decent benefits, and provide adequate staffing levels? Watch morale rise and burnout drop. Watch an influx of people looking to work in those fields. It ain’t, you should pardon the expression, rocket science.

  160. Meanwhile, we are seeing worsening shortages in HEAL (health, education, administration, literacy) fields along with high burnout and low morale.
    Not least because these professions, which covid revealed to be critical, are paid extremely little. Pay those folks a living wage, decent benefits, and provide adequate staffing levels? Watch morale rise and burnout drop. Watch an influx of people looking to work in those fields. It ain’t, you should pardon the expression, rocket science.

  161. An insight into “every vote counts”: In Livermore, CA (which is just a dozen miles down the road from here) all the votes have been counted. 14 votes separate the two candidates for mayor. Automatic recount in prospect, of course.
    Just saw a comment from one of the candidates: “I wish I’d knocked on a few more doors.”

  162. An insight into “every vote counts”: In Livermore, CA (which is just a dozen miles down the road from here) all the votes have been counted. 14 votes separate the two candidates for mayor. Automatic recount in prospect, of course.
    Just saw a comment from one of the candidates: “I wish I’d knocked on a few more doors.”

  163. Pay those folks a living wage, decent benefits, and provide adequate staffing levels? Watch morale rise and burnout drop.
    You’d think so, but in education it has less to do with those things and more to do with a lack of teacher agency. They are trained to teach, but then their classroom is so administratively micromanaged that they are unable to serve the needs of their students.
    Healthcare workers tell similar stories about their lack of input into the process.
    Staffing and money would help, but the burnout would still be happening.

  164. Pay those folks a living wage, decent benefits, and provide adequate staffing levels? Watch morale rise and burnout drop.
    You’d think so, but in education it has less to do with those things and more to do with a lack of teacher agency. They are trained to teach, but then their classroom is so administratively micromanaged that they are unable to serve the needs of their students.
    Healthcare workers tell similar stories about their lack of input into the process.
    Staffing and money would help, but the burnout would still be happening.

  165. To return to lh’s original question. Kari Lake has lost the governor’s race in Arizona. Which means that, in 100% of the cases where a 2020 election denier was running for an office which oversees state elections in a swing state, they lost. 100%; lost. Even if other Republican candidates in that state won.
    https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2022/11/politics/election-deniers-winners-losers-midterms-2022/
    Which I take to mean that, regardless of party preference, most Americans are not willing to write off elections in support of those preferences.
    Of course, there are exceptions. The 40% of the GOP who are hard core Trump supporters** apparently care about power and nothing else, whatever it takes to get it. Not even the tenets of the religion that they loudly profess, and which they demand everyone else follow, matters to them as much.
    ** And a substantially higher percentage, more like 95% of elected Federal office holders, feel the same. However low their opinion of Trump, what matters to them is power.

  166. To return to lh’s original question. Kari Lake has lost the governor’s race in Arizona. Which means that, in 100% of the cases where a 2020 election denier was running for an office which oversees state elections in a swing state, they lost. 100%; lost. Even if other Republican candidates in that state won.
    https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2022/11/politics/election-deniers-winners-losers-midterms-2022/
    Which I take to mean that, regardless of party preference, most Americans are not willing to write off elections in support of those preferences.
    Of course, there are exceptions. The 40% of the GOP who are hard core Trump supporters** apparently care about power and nothing else, whatever it takes to get it. Not even the tenets of the religion that they loudly profess, and which they demand everyone else follow, matters to them as much.
    ** And a substantially higher percentage, more like 95% of elected Federal office holders, feel the same. However low their opinion of Trump, what matters to them is power.

  167. They lost, but a lot of the margins were not encouraging. At the same time, more generic Republicans would have likely won a lot of those offices, with detrimental effects. I’m relieved but defending Helm’s Deep is but a small setback for the enemy.

  168. They lost, but a lot of the margins were not encouraging. At the same time, more generic Republicans would have likely won a lot of those offices, with detrimental effects. I’m relieved but defending Helm’s Deep is but a small setback for the enemy.

  169. My college housemate, who had been a New Age-y Democrat in the 90s, has turned into a Kari Lake supporting technolibertarian while also subscribing to Great Replacement Theory (so long as she can convince herself that Carlson’s support for Israel means he’s not including jews on his enemies list). I’m still dazzled by the convolutions she has to put herself through to arrive in that mental space. Sad and disturbing to witness.

  170. My college housemate, who had been a New Age-y Democrat in the 90s, has turned into a Kari Lake supporting technolibertarian while also subscribing to Great Replacement Theory (so long as she can convince herself that Carlson’s support for Israel means he’s not including jews on his enemies list). I’m still dazzled by the convolutions she has to put herself through to arrive in that mental space. Sad and disturbing to witness.

  171. They lost, but a lot of the margins were not encouraging.
    Not cause for great celebration, certainly. On the other hand, they were expecting, and we were expecting, them to win big (“red wave” or even “red tsunami”). But they barely won the House (if they do; looks like they’ll only have a couple votes margin, if that) and otherwise only came close.
    “Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.”
    Still lots of hard work ahead. But at least a bit of breathing room to do it in.

  172. They lost, but a lot of the margins were not encouraging.
    Not cause for great celebration, certainly. On the other hand, they were expecting, and we were expecting, them to win big (“red wave” or even “red tsunami”). But they barely won the House (if they do; looks like they’ll only have a couple votes margin, if that) and otherwise only came close.
    “Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.”
    Still lots of hard work ahead. But at least a bit of breathing room to do it in.

  175. they were expecting, and we were expecting, them to win big
    Who is this “we” of whom you speak? All I kept seeing for weeks was how impossible it has been to do reliable polling in recent cycles, and how the Rs were deliberately promoting the expectation of a red wave so that if/when there wasn’t one, they could cry fraud.
    Then again, I pay attention to the MSM only very secondhandedly. Maybe that’s my problem.
    Less wryly: I didn’t know what to expect, but I did cherish a strong hope that women hadn’t forgotten Dobbs, and were going to have their say about it.
    Some after the fact (but early) analysis, which suggests that Dobbs did play a significant role.
    True confessions: I haven’t read the whole thing, and right now I’m going back to bed. Besides the fact that it’s barely the middle of the night for me, the sight of a fringe of ice around the edge of the lake, despite the persistently warm daytime weather, makes me want to go put my head under the covers.

  176. they were expecting, and we were expecting, them to win big
    Who is this “we” of whom you speak? All I kept seeing for weeks was how impossible it has been to do reliable polling in recent cycles, and how the Rs were deliberately promoting the expectation of a red wave so that if/when there wasn’t one, they could cry fraud.
    Then again, I pay attention to the MSM only very secondhandedly. Maybe that’s my problem.
    Less wryly: I didn’t know what to expect, but I did cherish a strong hope that women hadn’t forgotten Dobbs, and were going to have their say about it.
    Some after the fact (but early) analysis, which suggests that Dobbs did play a significant role.
    True confessions: I haven’t read the whole thing, and right now I’m going back to bed. Besides the fact that it’s barely the middle of the night for me, the sight of a fringe of ice around the edge of the lake, despite the persistently warm daytime weather, makes me want to go put my head under the covers.

  177. Let’s say I would not have been surprised about widespread actual violence at the polls and expected far more direct shenanigans (in particular ‘eligibility challenges’ by ‘concerned election watchers’ in order to slow the process enough to have many go home because the waiting lines would reach into the next county or state) than seem to have happened.

  178. Let’s say I would not have been surprised about widespread actual violence at the polls and expected far more direct shenanigans (in particular ‘eligibility challenges’ by ‘concerned election watchers’ in order to slow the process enough to have many go home because the waiting lines would reach into the next county or state) than seem to have happened.

  179. All y’all Brits are wacky. And I’ll venture a guess that it has something to do with the deep and abiding effects of classism?
    I think you’re right, and the historic and cultural admiration for the classics (i.e. Latin and Greek), which of course also had class connotations. What I wrote was certainly true for my generation (I am 67) and some time after, and although it has changed somewhat (but for those doing GCSE only to make science education less detailed for those who so elect, although the increasing popularity of the Baccalaureate improves matters for those taking it), it is still possible for e.g. a very highly educated friend of my acquaintance, married to and on equal intellectual terms with a justifiably internationally eminent and respected scholar, to look at me in amazement, as if it were an absurd idea, when I said that I thought it necessary for people to study Physics because I thought it important and necessary to know how the universe works.

  180. All y’all Brits are wacky. And I’ll venture a guess that it has something to do with the deep and abiding effects of classism?
    I think you’re right, and the historic and cultural admiration for the classics (i.e. Latin and Greek), which of course also had class connotations. What I wrote was certainly true for my generation (I am 67) and some time after, and although it has changed somewhat (but for those doing GCSE only to make science education less detailed for those who so elect, although the increasing popularity of the Baccalaureate improves matters for those taking it), it is still possible for e.g. a very highly educated friend of my acquaintance, married to and on equal intellectual terms with a justifiably internationally eminent and respected scholar, to look at me in amazement, as if it were an absurd idea, when I said that I thought it necessary for people to study Physics because I thought it important and necessary to know how the universe works.

  181. “The 40% of the GOP who are hard core Trump supporters** apparently care about power and nothing else, whatever it takes to get it.”
    I’d put the percentage higher much than 40% for the base and even higher than that for elected officials. Though our democracy was protected at critical points by some brave Republican officials with integrity, those officials stood in contrast to the rest of the cowards and self-promoters and some lost their primaries because of their principles.
    Yes, we managed to pull off an election with few screams about false claims of voter fraud, though there was plenty of election legally sanctioned institutionalized election rigging going on by Republicans.
    The Republican party remains fascist and the most likely lesson they will learn from this is that next time they do need to attack local election offices to block voters from voting with bogus challenges, and they do need to move polling places or close them at the last minute, and they do need to pack the polling places with their people and try to actually deep six ballots and make bogus challenges to signatures etc.
    ANd one thing I totally predict they will do is try to make ballot curing illegal.

  182. “The 40% of the GOP who are hard core Trump supporters** apparently care about power and nothing else, whatever it takes to get it.”
    I’d put the percentage higher much than 40% for the base and even higher than that for elected officials. Though our democracy was protected at critical points by some brave Republican officials with integrity, those officials stood in contrast to the rest of the cowards and self-promoters and some lost their primaries because of their principles.
    Yes, we managed to pull off an election with few screams about false claims of voter fraud, though there was plenty of election legally sanctioned institutionalized election rigging going on by Republicans.
    The Republican party remains fascist and the most likely lesson they will learn from this is that next time they do need to attack local election offices to block voters from voting with bogus challenges, and they do need to move polling places or close them at the last minute, and they do need to pack the polling places with their people and try to actually deep six ballots and make bogus challenges to signatures etc.
    ANd one thing I totally predict they will do is try to make ballot curing illegal.

  183. For the record, I was only (and lightheartedly) responding to wj’s implication that “we” all expected a red wave. If I’d had to bet, I’d have bet that significant violence from the right was more likely than a big voting victory for their side.
    wonkie is probably right, but the hopeful side of me wants to believe that enough people have now seen through it, and are sick of it, to make a significant difference. As the BJ folks keep pounding home, all the secretary of state candidates who ran on “the steal” lost.

  184. For the record, I was only (and lightheartedly) responding to wj’s implication that “we” all expected a red wave. If I’d had to bet, I’d have bet that significant violence from the right was more likely than a big voting victory for their side.
    wonkie is probably right, but the hopeful side of me wants to believe that enough people have now seen through it, and are sick of it, to make a significant difference. As the BJ folks keep pounding home, all the secretary of state candidates who ran on “the steal” lost.

  185. …expected far more direct shenanigans (in particular ‘eligibility challenges’ by ‘concerned election watchers’…
    Both threats to do that and responses to those threats were overwrought. Surprisingly few states allow challenges to individual voters; where it is allowed challenges must be made for a specific cause; and the number of challengers is sharply limited. Very few election officials are willing to allow watchers and challengers to harass their (usually older, and volunteer) election workers.

  186. …expected far more direct shenanigans (in particular ‘eligibility challenges’ by ‘concerned election watchers’…
    Both threats to do that and responses to those threats were overwrought. Surprisingly few states allow challenges to individual voters; where it is allowed challenges must be made for a specific cause; and the number of challengers is sharply limited. Very few election officials are willing to allow watchers and challengers to harass their (usually older, and volunteer) election workers.

  187. Very few election officials are willing to allow watchers and challengers to harass their (usually older, and volunteer) election workers.
    Here in California (Contra Costa County), our Poll Worker’s Handbook and our training spent a fair amount of time on de-escalation. Beyond that (someone who won’t stand down), the explicit direction was “call local law enforcement, then call the county Election Control Center.”
    So yeah, definitely not tolerating disruption of the voting process, either by hassling voters or poll workers. Happily, we didn’t have a problem where I was working. But we were carefully prepared, just in case.

  188. Very few election officials are willing to allow watchers and challengers to harass their (usually older, and volunteer) election workers.
    Here in California (Contra Costa County), our Poll Worker’s Handbook and our training spent a fair amount of time on de-escalation. Beyond that (someone who won’t stand down), the explicit direction was “call local law enforcement, then call the county Election Control Center.”
    So yeah, definitely not tolerating disruption of the voting process, either by hassling voters or poll workers. Happily, we didn’t have a problem where I was working. But we were carefully prepared, just in case.

  189. I went down a bit of a Fetterman rabbit hole after re-reading the top post and comments. One of the most frequent anti-Fetterman ads I saw featured his response to a question about fracking during his debate with Oz, when he struggled to say he supported fracking, juxtaposed with a short, out-of-context quote from however long ago saying he didn’t support fracking. You may have seen the clip from the debate, which appeared to show the effects of his recent stroke on his ability to form clear sentences while speaking.
    Anyway, here’s what he had to say about fracking in the Rolling Stone article bobbyp linked to and russell commented on:

    I want to talk about another issue that came up a lot during the presidential race: fracking. Where did you come down on this issue? How do you see it play out in 2020?
    In 2015, I signed the no-fossil-fuel-money pledge and I have never taken a dime from that industry, or ever will. Fracking is complicated because right now over 60 percent of our nation’s [newly installed] electricity is derived from natural gas. That’s a fact. And another scientific fact is it is dramatically cleaner than coal. So our country has transitioned away undeniably from coal to natural gas, and that has reduced our greenhouse emissions. That being said, we need to move along the arc of clean energy, and I would hope we eventually reach a threshold where 80 percent or all of our electrical needs come from renewable sources. But right now, we’re not there.
    I’ve said this line time and again: that Republicans must become honest about our climate, and Democrats need to get honest about energy. And if you take nuclear out of the equation and you want to take natural gas out, well, OK, where does 60 percent of our electricity come from overnight?
    I have people in my own community that can’t afford to keep gas on in their house during the winter. If we ban fracking, for example, overnight, how do people heat their homes or afford to heat their homes or cook their food? These are all practical issues, and it requires a true bipartisan Marshall Plan. And right now, unfortunately, it’s hopelessly divided. The truth of the matter is, climate change is real and we must act as stewards of the environment for our children and our grandchildren and their grandchildren. And we also have to do it in a way that acknowledges that we all can’t work for Google. I’m a 51-year-old man, and I wouldn’t like it if someone sneered and said, “Go learn how to code.”

  190. I went down a bit of a Fetterman rabbit hole after re-reading the top post and comments. One of the most frequent anti-Fetterman ads I saw featured his response to a question about fracking during his debate with Oz, when he struggled to say he supported fracking, juxtaposed with a short, out-of-context quote from however long ago saying he didn’t support fracking. You may have seen the clip from the debate, which appeared to show the effects of his recent stroke on his ability to form clear sentences while speaking.
    Anyway, here’s what he had to say about fracking in the Rolling Stone article bobbyp linked to and russell commented on:

    I want to talk about another issue that came up a lot during the presidential race: fracking. Where did you come down on this issue? How do you see it play out in 2020?
    In 2015, I signed the no-fossil-fuel-money pledge and I have never taken a dime from that industry, or ever will. Fracking is complicated because right now over 60 percent of our nation’s [newly installed] electricity is derived from natural gas. That’s a fact. And another scientific fact is it is dramatically cleaner than coal. So our country has transitioned away undeniably from coal to natural gas, and that has reduced our greenhouse emissions. That being said, we need to move along the arc of clean energy, and I would hope we eventually reach a threshold where 80 percent or all of our electrical needs come from renewable sources. But right now, we’re not there.
    I’ve said this line time and again: that Republicans must become honest about our climate, and Democrats need to get honest about energy. And if you take nuclear out of the equation and you want to take natural gas out, well, OK, where does 60 percent of our electricity come from overnight?
    I have people in my own community that can’t afford to keep gas on in their house during the winter. If we ban fracking, for example, overnight, how do people heat their homes or afford to heat their homes or cook their food? These are all practical issues, and it requires a true bipartisan Marshall Plan. And right now, unfortunately, it’s hopelessly divided. The truth of the matter is, climate change is real and we must act as stewards of the environment for our children and our grandchildren and their grandchildren. And we also have to do it in a way that acknowledges that we all can’t work for Google. I’m a 51-year-old man, and I wouldn’t like it if someone sneered and said, “Go learn how to code.”

  195. In Georgia the challenges are not at the polls, but ahead of time challenging registrations.
    indubitably…much more bang for the buck. cf Florida’s non-stop efforts to disenfranchise voters since the infamous election of 2000.

  196. In Georgia the challenges are not at the polls, but ahead of time challenging registrations.
    indubitably…much more bang for the buck. cf Florida’s non-stop efforts to disenfranchise voters since the infamous election of 2000.

  201. Texas voter suppression law allows unlimited challenges of voters without cause. I don’t think the Republicans implemented this but they can and I assume that they will.

  202. Texas voter suppression law allows unlimited challenges of voters without cause. I don’t think the Republicans implemented this but they can and I assume that they will.

  207. In Georgia the challenges are not at the polls, but ahead of time challenging registrations.
    I wonder if anyone has considered doing wholesale challenges of voter registrations in red counties in Georgia. The article notes that some 95% are rejected, so it’s unlikely to be more effective here. But it might be educational for some people to be subjected to the hassle. Sauce for the goose, and all that.

  208. In Georgia the challenges are not at the polls, but ahead of time challenging registrations.
    I wonder if anyone has considered doing wholesale challenges of voter registrations in red counties in Georgia. The article notes that some 95% are rejected, so it’s unlikely to be more effective here. But it might be educational for some people to be subjected to the hassle. Sauce for the goose, and all that.

  209. You have to be a resident of the county to make the challenges and you can’t challenge anonymously. I imagine such a person would get unwelcome attention.

  210. You have to be a resident of the county to make the challenges and you can’t challenge anonymously. I imagine such a person would get unwelcome attention.

  211. Not on the subject of the election results, but I’m not sure we have an open thread at the moment.
    I can’t help wondering whether there’s more to the “accidental” Russian missile strike into Poland than meets the eye. If an anti-Putin Russian cabal wanted to give NATO an excuse to get more involved, might they do it this way? Is this credible, or just too Machiavellian…

  212. Not on the subject of the election results, but I’m not sure we have an open thread at the moment.
    I can’t help wondering whether there’s more to the “accidental” Russian missile strike into Poland than meets the eye. If an anti-Putin Russian cabal wanted to give NATO an excuse to get more involved, might they do it this way? Is this credible, or just too Machiavellian…

  213. Is this credible, or just too Machiavellian…
    It is generally best not to attribute to deviousness what can be adequately explained by incompetence.
    With the Russian military, that probably goes double. Which is to say, even if some internal cabal wanted to do it, it seems unlikely that they would be able to execute it.

  214. Is this credible, or just too Machiavellian…
    It is generally best not to attribute to deviousness what can be adequately explained by incompetence.
    With the Russian military, that probably goes double. Which is to say, even if some internal cabal wanted to do it, it seems unlikely that they would be able to execute it.

  215. Texas voter suppression law allows unlimited challenges of voters without cause.
    I don’t believe the “without cause” part. The state says that if I show up and satisfy conditions A, B, and C, I get to vote. A watcher doesn’t get to impose additional condition D. They have to challenge some aspect of me satisfying A, B, or C. Where some aspect could include “That election worker isn’t checking A, B, or C properly.”
    Even the Texas legislature hasn’t taken the step of writing laws that say the local Republican Party can decide who gets to vote.

  216. Texas voter suppression law allows unlimited challenges of voters without cause.
    I don’t believe the “without cause” part. The state says that if I show up and satisfy conditions A, B, and C, I get to vote. A watcher doesn’t get to impose additional condition D. They have to challenge some aspect of me satisfying A, B, or C. Where some aspect could include “That election worker isn’t checking A, B, or C properly.”
    Even the Texas legislature hasn’t taken the step of writing laws that say the local Republican Party can decide who gets to vote.

  219. Not on the subject of the election results, but I’m not sure we have an open thread at the moment.
    I’m trying to decide whether to stay up to see if NASA scrubs the SLS launch scheduled for tonight, or lights that sucker off. A launch will be spectacular, whether it goes as intended or just blows up. OTOH the history suggests the most likely outcome is another scrub.
    You know, SpaceX had just absolutely spoiled us.

  220. Not on the subject of the election results, but I’m not sure we have an open thread at the moment.
    I’m trying to decide whether to stay up to see if NASA scrubs the SLS launch scheduled for tonight, or lights that sucker off. A launch will be spectacular, whether it goes as intended or just blows up. OTOH the history suggests the most likely outcome is another scrub.
    You know, SpaceX had just absolutely spoiled us.

  221. Texas 1.
    Texas 2.
    Texas 3, which includes this:

    Poll watchers: SB1 established that a poll watcher must “not be denied free movement where election activity is occurring.” SB1 also established that election officials who deny access to poll watchers could be subject to criminal prosecution.

  222. Texas 1.
    Texas 2.
    Texas 3, which includes this:

    Poll watchers: SB1 established that a poll watcher must “not be denied free movement where election activity is occurring.” SB1 also established that election officials who deny access to poll watchers could be subject to criminal prosecution.

  223. You know, SpaceX had just absolutely spoiled us.
    Perhaps the contrast will (eventually) inspire NASA to up their game when it comes to launches. Their stuff does incredible well, and for durations far beyond its design life. But getting it the first few hundred miles has been a notable weakness.

  224. You know, SpaceX had just absolutely spoiled us.
    Perhaps the contrast will (eventually) inspire NASA to up their game when it comes to launches. Their stuff does incredible well, and for durations far beyond its design life. But getting it the first few hundred miles has been a notable weakness.

  225. But getting it the first few hundred miles has been a notable weakness….
    I’m sure it’s not as dumb as it sounds but… Intermittent leak in a valve carrying liquid hydrogen. They’re sending two technicians and a torque wrench to the launch pad. And I thought the political writers were lazy this year.

  226. But getting it the first few hundred miles has been a notable weakness….
    I’m sure it’s not as dumb as it sounds but… Intermittent leak in a valve carrying liquid hydrogen. They’re sending two technicians and a torque wrench to the launch pad. And I thought the political writers were lazy this year.

  227. Texas, according to Janie’s first link, ranks 46th on ease of voting. Way ahead of Florida when it comes to vote suppression then. But perhaps they aspire to displace New Hampshire for bottom place. (Didn’t see, on a quick skim, how NH contrived to be so bad. Anybody know?)
    It occurs to me that Texas (and Florida, and Georgia) wouldn’t be going to all this trouble. Unless the current administration and legislature in those states were convinced that, if a fair election were allowed, they would get voted out. Probably permanently.
    Assume they know their own population, at least far better than I do. That strongly suggests that those states are, or soon will be, not just purple but blue. There is the detail of getting a fair election to happen once. Probably require a Federal law on voting, redistricting, etc. — we can take notes from both the 1960s and from Reconstruction.** Also likely would require a new, politically neutral, Supreme Court.
    But what we are seeing suggests that, if we take the effort, it would make a difference.
    ** Is it coincidence that the states most in need appear to include all the states which were the targets of Reconstruction? Not sure I believe in that much coincidence.

  228. Texas, according to Janie’s first link, ranks 46th on ease of voting. Way ahead of Florida when it comes to vote suppression then. But perhaps they aspire to displace New Hampshire for bottom place. (Didn’t see, on a quick skim, how NH contrived to be so bad. Anybody know?)
    It occurs to me that Texas (and Florida, and Georgia) wouldn’t be going to all this trouble. Unless the current administration and legislature in those states were convinced that, if a fair election were allowed, they would get voted out. Probably permanently.
    Assume they know their own population, at least far better than I do. That strongly suggests that those states are, or soon will be, not just purple but blue. There is the detail of getting a fair election to happen once. Probably require a Federal law on voting, redistricting, etc. — we can take notes from both the 1960s and from Reconstruction.** Also likely would require a new, politically neutral, Supreme Court.
    But what we are seeing suggests that, if we take the effort, it would make a difference.
    ** Is it coincidence that the states most in need appear to include all the states which were the targets of Reconstruction? Not sure I believe in that much coincidence.

  229. What just happened: Trump announced, to noone’s surprise, his candidacy for President in 2024. The only question had been just when he would do it.
    What it means: Thanks to the timing, the Democrats’ chances of holding the Senate seat in Georgia just ticked up.
    Every little bit helps.

  230. What just happened: Trump announced, to noone’s surprise, his candidacy for President in 2024. The only question had been just when he would do it.
    What it means: Thanks to the timing, the Democrats’ chances of holding the Senate seat in Georgia just ticked up.
    Every little bit helps.

  233. Murdoch not supporting Trump. We’ll see how he reacts when the Fox firehose is pointed in his direction.
    As long as he’s got Rossiya-1 and RT, what’s to worry? Just add Fox News to the “fake news”(tm) media.

  234. Murdoch not supporting Trump. We’ll see how he reacts when the Fox firehose is pointed in his direction.
    As long as he’s got Rossiya-1 and RT, what’s to worry? Just add Fox News to the “fake news”(tm) media.

  239. For folks more rocket knowledgeable than me, any insight on why TLI burn for this mission is three times longer (roughly) than Apollo missions?

  240. For folks more rocket knowledgeable than me, any insight on why TLI burn for this mission is three times longer (roughly) than Apollo missions?

  241. Machiavelli here: so the story on the missile strike in Poland seems to be that it was likely an unintentional launch from Ukraine while they were attempting to counter the huge Russian missile assault yesterday. Poland and NATO are saying this, and it seems perfectly credible to me.
    *retreats back to conspiracy theory bunker*

  242. Machiavelli here: so the story on the missile strike in Poland seems to be that it was likely an unintentional launch from Ukraine while they were attempting to counter the huge Russian missile assault yesterday. Poland and NATO are saying this, and it seems perfectly credible to me.
    *retreats back to conspiracy theory bunker*

  243. In Georgia the challenges are not at the polls, but ahead of time challenging registrations.
    Or you can just not allow them at all. I work with the LWV in Houston and that group has been registering new citizens at the Naturalization Ceremony for years. This month was the first time we have not been invited to attend (as far as I know). The presiding judge invites the group to participate. In looking up the judge I found he has appointed by Trump and is a member of the Federalist Society.
    Just sayin’…
    I don’t know how to get rid of these italics. I thought you just use the < i > in front and behind the text you italicize but that didn’t work. Sorry…

  244. In Georgia the challenges are not at the polls, but ahead of time challenging registrations.
    Or you can just not allow them at all. I work with the LWV in Houston and that group has been registering new citizens at the Naturalization Ceremony for years. This month was the first time we have not been invited to attend (as far as I know). The presiding judge invites the group to participate. In looking up the judge I found he has appointed by Trump and is a member of the Federalist Society.
    Just sayin’…
    I don’t know how to get rid of these italics. I thought you just use the < i > in front and behind the text you italicize but that didn’t work. Sorry…

  247. The interesting thing is that my comment was still italicized in preview and even after initially posting it. Only after hitting “see more comments” did the italics go away.

  248. The interesting thing is that my comment was still italicized in preview and even after initially posting it. Only after hitting “see more comments” did the italics go away.

  249. Rather “Post another comment,” not “see more comments.” I’ve only been reading that for a decade or so. Jeez…

  250. Rather “Post another comment,” not “see more comments.” I’ve only been reading that for a decade or so. Jeez…

  255. For folks more rocket knowledgeable than me, any insight on why TLI burn for this mission is three times longer (roughly) than Apollo missions?
    Among other things, the S-IVB third stage for Apollo had about eight times the maximum thrust of the ICPS 2.5-th stage in SLS Block 1. Lots of other factors, of course, but basically the Artemis strategy is push longer but not as hard. The ICPS is a minimally changed version of the second stage from the Delta family of rockets.

  256. For folks more rocket knowledgeable than me, any insight on why TLI burn for this mission is three times longer (roughly) than Apollo missions?
    Among other things, the S-IVB third stage for Apollo had about eight times the maximum thrust of the ICPS 2.5-th stage in SLS Block 1. Lots of other factors, of course, but basically the Artemis strategy is push longer but not as hard. The ICPS is a minimally changed version of the second stage from the Delta family of rockets.

  257. The interesting thing is that my comment was still italicized in preview and even after initially posting it. Only after hitting “see more comments” did the italics go away.
    This is because comments at Obsidian Wings are handled by some JavaScript code. As comments are created — preview, edit, post, etc — the code manipulates parts of the document but never triggers a full page redraw that will show the full effect (eg, of a flock of leading </i> tags). At least that’s the behavior in contemporary browsers. The full redraw only happens when you click something like “See more comments” or the browser’s page refresh button that gets a new copy of the page.
    This approach reduces load on both the server and the browser. It also creates situations where different users may have inconsistent views of the page comments. The ultimate in inconsistency is probably Disqus running on a site like Lawyers, Guns & Money. Different users have different views of the comment ordering, and those views may be radically different.

  258. The interesting thing is that my comment was still italicized in preview and even after initially posting it. Only after hitting “see more comments” did the italics go away.
    This is because comments at Obsidian Wings are handled by some JavaScript code. As comments are created — preview, edit, post, etc — the code manipulates parts of the document but never triggers a full page redraw that will show the full effect (eg, of a flock of leading </i> tags). At least that’s the behavior in contemporary browsers. The full redraw only happens when you click something like “See more comments” or the browser’s page refresh button that gets a new copy of the page.
    This approach reduces load on both the server and the browser. It also creates situations where different users may have inconsistent views of the page comments. The ultimate in inconsistency is probably Disqus running on a site like Lawyers, Guns & Money. Different users have different views of the comment ordering, and those views may be radically different.

  259. Michael — is that last bit related to threaded comments? (Spare us from which… Every now and then someone at BJ mentions threaded comments, but luckily John Cole is a firm “No.” I’d probably leave if they introduced them.)

  260. Michael — is that last bit related to threaded comments? (Spare us from which… Every now and then someone at BJ mentions threaded comments, but luckily John Cole is a firm “No.” I’d probably leave if they introduced them.)

  261. Not just threaded comments, although they certainly exacerbate the issue. LG&M routinely — as in multiple times per day — puts up a post, gets 700+ comments from dozens of regulars in the first hour, and has some sub-debates that carry on for days. That doesn’t work when comments are only presented as a linear sequence. That doesn’t work when (as in the case at BJ) non-linear references to other comments only go back up the linear list. It only works if people see a subtree of the total comment tree. A dynamic view of the subtree, at least for LG&M sorts of tempo. People tried writing plugins to do that, but most blog server software (WordPress, Typepad) is not well-suited to that. Enter Disqus, where every reader gets a session involving a dynamic view of a rapidly changing comment tree.

  262. Not just threaded comments, although they certainly exacerbate the issue. LG&M routinely — as in multiple times per day — puts up a post, gets 700+ comments from dozens of regulars in the first hour, and has some sub-debates that carry on for days. That doesn’t work when comments are only presented as a linear sequence. That doesn’t work when (as in the case at BJ) non-linear references to other comments only go back up the linear list. It only works if people see a subtree of the total comment tree. A dynamic view of the subtree, at least for LG&M sorts of tempo. People tried writing plugins to do that, but most blog server software (WordPress, Typepad) is not well-suited to that. Enter Disqus, where every reader gets a session involving a dynamic view of a rapidly changing comment tree.

  269. Thanks, Janie. I was tempted to copy the link and paste it here, but thought I might screw something up for others trying to use it at BJ.
    I can’t help but be reminded of W looking into Vlad’s eyes and seeing his soul when reading parody-Pence’s descriptions of Killer Robot3000’s true feelings, particularly in light of Vlad’s recent misadventures.

  270. Thanks, Janie. I was tempted to copy the link and paste it here, but thought I might screw something up for others trying to use it at BJ.
    I can’t help but be reminded of W looking into Vlad’s eyes and seeing his soul when reading parody-Pence’s descriptions of Killer Robot3000’s true feelings, particularly in light of Vlad’s recent misadventures.

  271. Or, here it is from my sub:
    He started to bring up the election, saying that people were angry, but his voice trailed off.
    I told him he had to set that aside, and he responded quietly, “Yeah.”
    I said, “Those people who broke into the Capitol might’ve been supporters, but they are not our movement.” For five years, we had both spoken to crowds of the most patriotic, law-abiding, God-fearing people in the country.
    With genuine sadness in his voice, the president mused: “What if we hadn’t had the rally? What if they hadn’t gone to the Capitol?” Then he said, “It’s too terrible to end like this.”
    — Mike Pence’s new memoir, “So Help Me God”
    “My Last Days With Killer Robot3000,” by Mike Pence
    “Mike Pence,” everyone says. “Killer Robot3000 recklessly endangered your life, didn’t he?”
    I shake my head. It is technically true in the most plodding, literal way that Killer Robot3000, a deadly robot programmed to kill, did exactly that, but I know better. Dangerous as it is, that is just how he says hello; I took his firing a deadly laser at me every time I approached for the friendly greeting it was. I know better than to think it was personal. Killer Robot3000 and I have always had nothing but deep respect for one another.
    “I will pray for you, Killer Robot3000,” I told him.
    He beeped at me in what I knew was a soulful way. “KILL! KILL!” he said, softly, although technically it was at the same volume he said anything. But there was an undeniable softness to it, the kind of undeniable softness that would have been denied by anyone hearing it except myself.
    ***
    “Did you mean to ravage that city with your lasers, Killer Robot3000?” I asked.
    Killer Robot3000 did not shake his head, but I could tell he wanted to. It was all the answer I needed.
    ***
    I could tell that Killer Robot3000 was torn up inside about the sobering events of the previous weeks, where he had used his flamethrowers to set many people ablaze and his electric murder-wasp functionality to target many more. I could tell because he had that look in his eyes that only I could fully understand.
    “I think Killer Robot3000 is turned off,” my aide said. “I don’t think you should read anything into the way he looks when he is not turned on.”
    I shook my head, my eyes beginning to brim with tears. At that moment I felt such love for Killer Robot3000. He had told me everything with a single glance.
    ***
    “Do you think I should run for president, Killer Robot3000?” I asked.
    Killer Robot3000’s eyes flashed at me with their lasers, and I knew I had his endorsement. That was unmistakably what it was, what he did with the lasers.
    ***
    “Oh, Mike Pence, whom I have always respected, even when we disagreed — do not pray for me,” Killer Robot3000 said. “I am a robot, and I lack a soul. I wish I had a soul like you, so that I could pray with you and be a better friend to you. But had I a spirit, would it not be too weighted with regret for all these things I’ve done? Yes, Mike Pence, you know better than anyone: Please put it in your book that I felt regret.”
    Killer Robot3000 said that with his eyes. With his mouth he said, “KILL! KILL!”
    Opinion by Alexandra Petri
    Alexandra Petri is a Washington Post columnist offering a lighter take on the news and opinions of the day. She is the author of the essay collection “Nothing Is Wrong And Here Is Why.”

  272. Or, here it is from my sub:
    He started to bring up the election, saying that people were angry, but his voice trailed off.
    I told him he had to set that aside, and he responded quietly, “Yeah.”
    I said, “Those people who broke into the Capitol might’ve been supporters, but they are not our movement.” For five years, we had both spoken to crowds of the most patriotic, law-abiding, God-fearing people in the country.
    With genuine sadness in his voice, the president mused: “What if we hadn’t had the rally? What if they hadn’t gone to the Capitol?” Then he said, “It’s too terrible to end like this.”
    — Mike Pence’s new memoir, “So Help Me God”
    “My Last Days With Killer Robot3000,” by Mike Pence
    “Mike Pence,” everyone says. “Killer Robot3000 recklessly endangered your life, didn’t he?”
    I shake my head. It is technically true in the most plodding, literal way that Killer Robot3000, a deadly robot programmed to kill, did exactly that, but I know better. Dangerous as it is, that is just how he says hello; I took his firing a deadly laser at me every time I approached for the friendly greeting it was. I know better than to think it was personal. Killer Robot3000 and I have always had nothing but deep respect for one another.
    “I will pray for you, Killer Robot3000,” I told him.
    He beeped at me in what I knew was a soulful way. “KILL! KILL!” he said, softly, although technically it was at the same volume he said anything. But there was an undeniable softness to it, the kind of undeniable softness that would have been denied by anyone hearing it except myself.
    ***
    “Did you mean to ravage that city with your lasers, Killer Robot3000?” I asked.
    Killer Robot3000 did not shake his head, but I could tell he wanted to. It was all the answer I needed.
    ***
    I could tell that Killer Robot3000 was torn up inside about the sobering events of the previous weeks, where he had used his flamethrowers to set many people ablaze and his electric murder-wasp functionality to target many more. I could tell because he had that look in his eyes that only I could fully understand.
    “I think Killer Robot3000 is turned off,” my aide said. “I don’t think you should read anything into the way he looks when he is not turned on.”
    I shook my head, my eyes beginning to brim with tears. At that moment I felt such love for Killer Robot3000. He had told me everything with a single glance.
    ***
    “Do you think I should run for president, Killer Robot3000?” I asked.
    Killer Robot3000’s eyes flashed at me with their lasers, and I knew I had his endorsement. That was unmistakably what it was, what he did with the lasers.
    ***
    “Oh, Mike Pence, whom I have always respected, even when we disagreed — do not pray for me,” Killer Robot3000 said. “I am a robot, and I lack a soul. I wish I had a soul like you, so that I could pray with you and be a better friend to you. But had I a spirit, would it not be too weighted with regret for all these things I’ve done? Yes, Mike Pence, you know better than anyone: Please put it in your book that I felt regret.”
    Killer Robot3000 said that with his eyes. With his mouth he said, “KILL! KILL!”
    Opinion by Alexandra Petri
    Alexandra Petri is a Washington Post columnist offering a lighter take on the news and opinions of the day. She is the author of the essay collection “Nothing Is Wrong And Here Is Why.”

  273. I almost missed Janie’s link to her new set of pics. That would have been a great pity; as always they are full of beauty and meaning. Thanks, Janie.

  274. I almost missed Janie’s link to her new set of pics. That would have been a great pity; as always they are full of beauty and meaning. Thanks, Janie.

  277. Thanks, Janie. I was tempted to copy the link and paste it here, but thought I might screw something up for others trying to use it at BJ.
    I thought the same thing — that either a copied gift link wouldn’t work, or it wouldn’t be quite fair to swipe it….? Anyhow, GftNC cut to the chase.

  278. Thanks, Janie. I was tempted to copy the link and paste it here, but thought I might screw something up for others trying to use it at BJ.
    I thought the same thing — that either a copied gift link wouldn’t work, or it wouldn’t be quite fair to swipe it….? Anyhow, GftNC cut to the chase.

  281. [late to the party as usual]
    JanieM, if another occasion arises where we need a gift link to a WaPo article or TPM post just let me know.

  282. [late to the party as usual]
    JanieM, if another occasion arises where we need a gift link to a WaPo article or TPM post just let me know.

  283. Hey Michael, here’s another project for you. 😉
    We are fortunate/unfortunate/whatever to live in a period where the statement “90% of all photographs ever taken in the history of the world were taken in the last 12 months” is always true. Many people find themselves in the situation of needing to buy a new phone, but there are thousands or tens of thousands of photos in their old phone they hope can be transferred. Many people casually grabbed more photos last year than some historically great photographers took in their entire lifetime.
    At one point one of my side gigs inside the giant telecom company where I worked was to do lectures about onrushing technology the company would have to deal with. Now many years ago, in one of the later examples, I would hold up a 3.5-inch hard disk and say, “This disk can hold every technical paper I’ve ever written. Every technical paper I’ve ever read. Every technical paper I’ve ever set aside because I might get around to reading it. All of the photographs I’ve ever taken. At least half of all the music recordings I’ve ever owned. And some of my favorite movies/television. In three years, in the same form factor, all of the music I’ve ever listened to, every book or magazine article I’ve ever read technical or not. In six years, every movie or television show I’ve ever watched, all of my home video. In twelve years, the problem is not whether I can record it, it’s whether I can f*cking find it in the archive.
    Over the last several years I have made an effort to steal and store a copy of all the books on my shelves (then donate the paper copies). Not done, but OTOH I have copies of a bunch that I never owned on paper. I am approaching the point where I’m going to need a good scanner/OCR chain because I’m down to books that have never been digitized. In total, they take up a disturbingly small amount of the storage in my current desktop computer. Disturbingly small as in, “My entire print library fits easily in the RAM on my current computer.”

  284. Hey Michael, here’s another project for you. 😉
    We are fortunate/unfortunate/whatever to live in a period where the statement “90% of all photographs ever taken in the history of the world were taken in the last 12 months” is always true. Many people find themselves in the situation of needing to buy a new phone, but there are thousands or tens of thousands of photos in their old phone they hope can be transferred. Many people casually grabbed more photos last year than some historically great photographers took in their entire lifetime.
    At one point one of my side gigs inside the giant telecom company where I worked was to do lectures about onrushing technology the company would have to deal with. Now many years ago, in one of the later examples, I would hold up a 3.5-inch hard disk and say, “This disk can hold every technical paper I’ve ever written. Every technical paper I’ve ever read. Every technical paper I’ve ever set aside because I might get around to reading it. All of the photographs I’ve ever taken. At least half of all the music recordings I’ve ever owned. And some of my favorite movies/television. In three years, in the same form factor, all of the music I’ve ever listened to, every book or magazine article I’ve ever read technical or not. In six years, every movie or television show I’ve ever watched, all of my home video. In twelve years, the problem is not whether I can record it, it’s whether I can f*cking find it in the archive.
    Over the last several years I have made an effort to steal and store a copy of all the books on my shelves (then donate the paper copies). Not done, but OTOH I have copies of a bunch that I never owned on paper. I am approaching the point where I’m going to need a good scanner/OCR chain because I’m down to books that have never been digitized. In total, they take up a disturbingly small amount of the storage in my current desktop computer. Disturbingly small as in, “My entire print library fits easily in the RAM on my current computer.”

  291. Michael — I am chuckling and rolling my eyes at the same time. This is a huge topic, which is the saving and recording of everything, the difficulty in keeping track of it, the danger of the media we’re using becoming obsolete / unreadable, and the question of what role it should or can take in the lives of later generations.
    Maybe we should have a post about it at some point.

  292. Michael — I am chuckling and rolling my eyes at the same time. This is a huge topic, which is the saving and recording of everything, the difficulty in keeping track of it, the danger of the media we’re using becoming obsolete / unreadable, and the question of what role it should or can take in the lives of later generations.
    Maybe we should have a post about it at some point.

  293. the problem is not whether I can record it, it’s whether I can f*cking find it in the archive.
    Exactly the same problem we all develop over time with our organic memories: the memory/word/name/etc. that I want is in there. But until I can figure out how to rebuild the index (a task all the database folks here will be familiar with), I’m stuck doing a sequential search for anything that isn’t in cache.
    Which is how I occasionally come to recall something I needed . . . but at 4 AM two days later. Sequential search: not a scalable solution, unfortunately.

  294. the problem is not whether I can record it, it’s whether I can f*cking find it in the archive.
    Exactly the same problem we all develop over time with our organic memories: the memory/word/name/etc. that I want is in there. But until I can figure out how to rebuild the index (a task all the database folks here will be familiar with), I’m stuck doing a sequential search for anything that isn’t in cache.
    Which is how I occasionally come to recall something I needed . . . but at 4 AM two days later. Sequential search: not a scalable solution, unfortunately.

  297. Disturbingly small as in, “My entire print library fits easily in the RAM on my current computer.”
    That’s nuts.
    And, if all of the world’s data was encoded in DNA, it would fit in a teaspoon.

    Joi: Mere data makes a man. A and C and T and G. The alphabet of you. All from four symbols. I am only two: 1 and 0.
    ‘K’: Half as much but twice as elegant, sweetheart.

    Blade Runner 2049

  298. Disturbingly small as in, “My entire print library fits easily in the RAM on my current computer.”
    That’s nuts.
    And, if all of the world’s data was encoded in DNA, it would fit in a teaspoon.

    Joi: Mere data makes a man. A and C and T and G. The alphabet of you. All from four symbols. I am only two: 1 and 0.
    ‘K’: Half as much but twice as elegant, sweetheart.

    Blade Runner 2049

  299. Have you got a DNA reader, though, Charles ?
    Research is being done on using DNA for data storage.
    “DNA shows great promise for sating the world’s voracious appetite for data storage. The technology requires new tools and new ways of applying familiar ones. But don’t be surprised if one day the world’s most valuable archives find a new home in a poppy-seed-sized collection of molecules.”
    DNA: The Ultimate Data-Storage Solution: The double helix can archive a staggering amount of information in an almost inconceivably small volume

  300. Have you got a DNA reader, though, Charles ?
    Research is being done on using DNA for data storage.
    “DNA shows great promise for sating the world’s voracious appetite for data storage. The technology requires new tools and new ways of applying familiar ones. But don’t be surprised if one day the world’s most valuable archives find a new home in a poppy-seed-sized collection of molecules.”
    DNA: The Ultimate Data-Storage Solution: The double helix can archive a staggering amount of information in an almost inconceivably small volume

  301. This is a huge topic, which is the saving and recording of everything, the difficulty in keeping track of it, the danger of the media we’re using becoming obsolete / unreadable, and the question of what role it should or can take in the lives of later generations.
    I used to discuss this with a friend who was a librarian. She would point out that the source material for something like Ken Burns’s Civil War was largely pigment-based ink on acid-free paper. Her bet was that the source material for a history project being done in 2130 for an event that happened in 2000 would be… pigment-based ink on acid-free paper. Also that almost all paper in use during the first half of the 1860s was acid free, while almost none of the paper in use today is.

  302. This is a huge topic, which is the saving and recording of everything, the difficulty in keeping track of it, the danger of the media we’re using becoming obsolete / unreadable, and the question of what role it should or can take in the lives of later generations.
    I used to discuss this with a friend who was a librarian. She would point out that the source material for something like Ken Burns’s Civil War was largely pigment-based ink on acid-free paper. Her bet was that the source material for a history project being done in 2130 for an event that happened in 2000 would be… pigment-based ink on acid-free paper. Also that almost all paper in use during the first half of the 1860s was acid free, while almost none of the paper in use today is.

  303. Welcome to the Digital Dark Ages!
    Good luck finding a working 9-track 6250bpi tape/DLT/DVD/zip drive, and even if the backups were done, the software to read the files requires a system that hasn’t been in use for *decades*, from a manufacturer that has been sold (and re-sold) a few times in the interim.
    The golden phonograph records on the Voyager probes may be the only things left of humanity, when all is said and done.

  304. Welcome to the Digital Dark Ages!
    Good luck finding a working 9-track 6250bpi tape/DLT/DVD/zip drive, and even if the backups were done, the software to read the files requires a system that hasn’t been in use for *decades*, from a manufacturer that has been sold (and re-sold) a few times in the interim.
    The golden phonograph records on the Voyager probes may be the only things left of humanity, when all is said and done.

  305. Good luck finding a working 9-track 6250bpi tape/DLT/DVD/zip drive, and even if the backups were done, the software to read the files requires a system that hasn’t been in use for *decades*, from a manufacturer that has been sold (and re-sold) a few times in the interim.
    And even if you find one, your next challenge is to find plugs/connectors to allow you to access that drive. Probably somebody, somewhere has a box full of them. But mostly, that stuff is replaced rather than repaired. So the fix-it shops that would have had a box of old parts, mostly don’t exist.
    Fix a 30 year old car? No problem. (Thanks be to S.A.E.!) Fix a 30 year old computer? SOL.

  306. Good luck finding a working 9-track 6250bpi tape/DLT/DVD/zip drive, and even if the backups were done, the software to read the files requires a system that hasn’t been in use for *decades*, from a manufacturer that has been sold (and re-sold) a few times in the interim.
    And even if you find one, your next challenge is to find plugs/connectors to allow you to access that drive. Probably somebody, somewhere has a box full of them. But mostly, that stuff is replaced rather than repaired. So the fix-it shops that would have had a box of old parts, mostly don’t exist.
    Fix a 30 year old car? No problem. (Thanks be to S.A.E.!) Fix a 30 year old computer? SOL.

  307. True story. I was doing Digital Humanities work in grad school, looking at how social media and video games influence the public imagination’s ideas of combat and military force.
    By the time I had finished doing research on my first project and had written it up, no one was playing those games anymore, and the social media venues at which I had gathered the data for my analyses had all migrated to other platforms.
    Pretty much made the work I was doing unsustainable for academia. Academic publishing protocols work too slowly to keep up with digital popular culture. Too much short term memory that never transfers into long term memory, and cutting edge work becomes historical review in the time it takes to publish.

  308. True story. I was doing Digital Humanities work in grad school, looking at how social media and video games influence the public imagination’s ideas of combat and military force.
    By the time I had finished doing research on my first project and had written it up, no one was playing those games anymore, and the social media venues at which I had gathered the data for my analyses had all migrated to other platforms.
    Pretty much made the work I was doing unsustainable for academia. Academic publishing protocols work too slowly to keep up with digital popular culture. Too much short term memory that never transfers into long term memory, and cutting edge work becomes historical review in the time it takes to publish.

  309. Welcome to the Digital Dark Ages!… Good luck finding a working…
    You sound like my librarian friend. Digital preservation depends heavily on files being copied from one medium to another in a timely fashion. The Congressional Library will do that for things they deem important. My grandkids, probably not so much. Availability of hardware is one limit. So are things like magnetic print-through on tapes, dye fade in CDR sorts of media, etc. Some of them we don’t know. I have CDRs whose burning I can reliably date to 1995 that I haven’t taken any special care of that are still readable.
    I also have lab notebooks on relatively low-acid paper written in pigment-based ink that are older than that. There’s really no question about whether the notebooks will last another 70 years if someone keeps them in a dark dry place. The CDRs, who knows?

  310. Welcome to the Digital Dark Ages!… Good luck finding a working…
    You sound like my librarian friend. Digital preservation depends heavily on files being copied from one medium to another in a timely fashion. The Congressional Library will do that for things they deem important. My grandkids, probably not so much. Availability of hardware is one limit. So are things like magnetic print-through on tapes, dye fade in CDR sorts of media, etc. Some of them we don’t know. I have CDRs whose burning I can reliably date to 1995 that I haven’t taken any special care of that are still readable.
    I also have lab notebooks on relatively low-acid paper written in pigment-based ink that are older than that. There’s really no question about whether the notebooks will last another 70 years if someone keeps them in a dark dry place. The CDRs, who knows?

  311. …almost all paper in use during the first half of the 1860s was acid free, while almost none of the paper in use today is.
    My understanding is that paper has been much longer lasting since 1980 or so, thanks to improved sizing chemicals.

  312. …almost all paper in use during the first half of the 1860s was acid free, while almost none of the paper in use today is.
    My understanding is that paper has been much longer lasting since 1980 or so, thanks to improved sizing chemicals.

  313. Fix a 30 year old computer? SOL.
    There are some computer museums like Living Computers that maintain old computers in running condition. Though it looks like not much is going on there since COVID hit.

  314. Fix a 30 year old computer? SOL.
    There are some computer museums like Living Computers that maintain old computers in running condition. Though it looks like not much is going on there since COVID hit.

  315. There are some computer museums like Living Computers that maintain old computers in running condition.
    What are the requirements for someone who wants to use that equipment to copy (let alone anything more) old files? For that matter, are those computers connected to more modern equipment, so that such copying is possible?

  316. There are some computer museums like Living Computers that maintain old computers in running condition.
    What are the requirements for someone who wants to use that equipment to copy (let alone anything more) old files? For that matter, are those computers connected to more modern equipment, so that such copying is possible?

  317. Some of the old computers Living Computers had running were connected to the Internet so that you could log onto them, run programs, write code, etc.

  318. Some of the old computers Living Computers had running were connected to the Internet so that you could log onto them, run programs, write code, etc.

  319. Since I haven’t said it yet, props to the engineers at Boeing and elsewhere that got the SLS to fly despite the handicaps they labored under.
    Now we have to ask the question, is a system that costs $4B per launch, can support a launch tempo of one launch per year or less for the next decade, and can’t do anything except ferry crew and modest cargo between Earth surface and low lunar orbit, compatible with a sustainable crewed deep-space project?

  320. Since I haven’t said it yet, props to the engineers at Boeing and elsewhere that got the SLS to fly despite the handicaps they labored under.
    Now we have to ask the question, is a system that costs $4B per launch, can support a launch tempo of one launch per year or less for the next decade, and can’t do anything except ferry crew and modest cargo between Earth surface and low lunar orbit, compatible with a sustainable crewed deep-space project?

  321. Michael, in a word, No.
    I’m glad to see us making an effort to go to the moon again. But I can’t see this as more than an opportunity to look at places, e.e. the south polar region, that we didn’t get to earlier. A sustainable project is going to take a different approach.

  322. Michael, in a word, No.
    I’m glad to see us making an effort to go to the moon again. But I can’t see this as more than an opportunity to look at places, e.e. the south polar region, that we didn’t get to earlier. A sustainable project is going to take a different approach.

  323. Research is being done on using DNA for data storage.
    I’m aware; there are already a couple of companies which might be worth investing in on that basis.
    I was being a toch snarky, for which apologies. What I should have said is that it’s likely to be quite a while before the tech is available to you and me.
    And perhaps not even in time to fully archive Twitter before it folds.

  324. Research is being done on using DNA for data storage.
    I’m aware; there are already a couple of companies which might be worth investing in on that basis.
    I was being a toch snarky, for which apologies. What I should have said is that it’s likely to be quite a while before the tech is available to you and me.
    And perhaps not even in time to fully archive Twitter before it folds.

  325. A disctrict court judge struck down DeSantis’ Stop WOKE Act. Of course this will be appealed by Orbanus Floridianus I.
    The judge did not mince words and got a bit literary. A few quotes:

    “Normally, the First Amendment bars the state from burdening speech, while private actors may burden speech freely. But in Florida, the First Amendment apparently bars private actors from burdening speech, while the state may burden speech freely.”
    “’It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen,’ and the powers in charge of Florida’s public university system have declared the State has unfettered authority to muzzle its professors in the name of ‘freedom,’”
    “The law officially bans professors from expressing disfavored viewpoints in university classrooms while permitting unfettered expression of the opposite viewpoints.Defendants argue that, under this Act, professors enjoy ‘academic freedom’ so long as they express only those viewpoints of which the State approves. This is positively dystopian.”

  326. A disctrict court judge struck down DeSantis’ Stop WOKE Act. Of course this will be appealed by Orbanus Floridianus I.
    The judge did not mince words and got a bit literary. A few quotes:

    “Normally, the First Amendment bars the state from burdening speech, while private actors may burden speech freely. But in Florida, the First Amendment apparently bars private actors from burdening speech, while the state may burden speech freely.”
    “’It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen,’ and the powers in charge of Florida’s public university system have declared the State has unfettered authority to muzzle its professors in the name of ‘freedom,’”
    “The law officially bans professors from expressing disfavored viewpoints in university classrooms while permitting unfettered expression of the opposite viewpoints.Defendants argue that, under this Act, professors enjoy ‘academic freedom’ so long as they express only those viewpoints of which the State approves. This is positively dystopian.”

  327. Question for wj or Michael (or anyone, really) — have been skimming a thread about possible disaster scenarios from the systems point of view at Twitter.
    It includes this:
    14) A user in the Phillipines is about to post CEI to the platform. You *cannot* leave that content up. Do you have your employees with relationships with PH law enforcement? Do you have your content moderation systems working? Do you have your moderators?
    What does CEI mean? I can guess very generally from context, but would like to know precisely.
    Speaking of acronyms!
    For the last few years I was working, I worked most closely with a guy named Will who also worked remotely. So we would get on the phone…. One day when we were talking, he was in his car and his partner was with him, and she remarked on the fact that half of our conversation was acronyms. Of course, they were internal acronyms for products, databases, etc., but it was kind of funny — I hadn’t thought about how much of our lingo would be opaque to an outsider.

  328. Question for wj or Michael (or anyone, really) — have been skimming a thread about possible disaster scenarios from the systems point of view at Twitter.
    It includes this:
    14) A user in the Phillipines is about to post CEI to the platform. You *cannot* leave that content up. Do you have your employees with relationships with PH law enforcement? Do you have your content moderation systems working? Do you have your moderators?
    What does CEI mean? I can guess very generally from context, but would like to know precisely.
    Speaking of acronyms!
    For the last few years I was working, I worked most closely with a guy named Will who also worked remotely. So we would get on the phone…. One day when we were talking, he was in his car and his partner was with him, and she remarked on the fact that half of our conversation was acronyms. Of course, they were internal acronyms for products, databases, etc., but it was kind of funny — I hadn’t thought about how much of our lingo would be opaque to an outsider.

  333. Janie,
    It looks to me like Twitter is going to implode. I read things like “critical systems left with just two guys to maintain it. Or one. Or zero.”
    Above and beyond whatever moderation issues it may see, this is a recipe for going down. And staying down until the company can get someone who knows the system, at consultant rates, to come diagnose and fix it. Which will be expensive (especially if those who could are pissed off at the company already). And slow, since contracts have to be negotiated and signed.
    See also the comments on the new thread:
    An amuse bouche

  334. Janie,
    It looks to me like Twitter is going to implode. I read things like “critical systems left with just two guys to maintain it. Or one. Or zero.”
    Above and beyond whatever moderation issues it may see, this is a recipe for going down. And staying down until the company can get someone who knows the system, at consultant rates, to come diagnose and fix it. Which will be expensive (especially if those who could are pissed off at the company already). And slow, since contracts have to be negotiated and signed.
    See also the comments on the new thread:
    An amuse bouche

  335. I hadn’t come close to the end of the thread, which was pretty opaque to someone not in that field, but he did put a glossary at the end:
    SRE: site reliability engineer
    CEI: child sexual/abuse imagery 🙁
    GDPR: EU privacy regulation
    DNS: domain name resolution (website name -> ip address)
    SEV: “site event” (although really no one knows what it stands for. think… “bad thing happened”)
    DC: datacenter

  336. I hadn’t come close to the end of the thread, which was pretty opaque to someone not in that field, but he did put a glossary at the end:
    SRE: site reliability engineer
    CEI: child sexual/abuse imagery 🙁
    GDPR: EU privacy regulation
    DNS: domain name resolution (website name -> ip address)
    SEV: “site event” (although really no one knows what it stands for. think… “bad thing happened”)
    DC: datacenter

  337. @JanieM, I got nothin’ on Musk. The only theory I have that links the pieces together is that post-Tesla, it’s all things that he needs to run a colony on Mars. No, no, hear me out.
    SpaceX is an attempt to build the transport to get there. (He made a really great choice with employee #7, because Gwynne Shotwell is brilliant at this.)
    The Boring Company is habitat that’s safe from radiation. Deep enough and it’s safe from even things like coronal mass ejections. I’m willing to make a small bet that he’s at least talked to China about a moon-oriented version that can be landed up there in three Starship loads. I know I would have.
    Any colony is going to be heavily automated. Neuralink is remote control even when you can’t move your fingers.
    Starlink is the planetary internet without the hassle of stringing fiber optic cables all over Mars.
    Twitter — assuming he can meet the interest payments — is very little about being a global social media platform here. It’s about being a money transfer company, and a media company, and eventually a cloud computing supplier, and a social media platform on the side up there.
    He’s doing too many things too fast. He hasn’t got the cash flow to support things at the pace he’s trying for.

  338. @JanieM, I got nothin’ on Musk. The only theory I have that links the pieces together is that post-Tesla, it’s all things that he needs to run a colony on Mars. No, no, hear me out.
    SpaceX is an attempt to build the transport to get there. (He made a really great choice with employee #7, because Gwynne Shotwell is brilliant at this.)
    The Boring Company is habitat that’s safe from radiation. Deep enough and it’s safe from even things like coronal mass ejections. I’m willing to make a small bet that he’s at least talked to China about a moon-oriented version that can be landed up there in three Starship loads. I know I would have.
    Any colony is going to be heavily automated. Neuralink is remote control even when you can’t move your fingers.
    Starlink is the planetary internet without the hassle of stringing fiber optic cables all over Mars.
    Twitter — assuming he can meet the interest payments — is very little about being a global social media platform here. It’s about being a money transfer company, and a media company, and eventually a cloud computing supplier, and a social media platform on the side up there.
    He’s doing too many things too fast. He hasn’t got the cash flow to support things at the pace he’s trying for.

  341. One theory on Musk’s approach to Twitter is that 10% of employees in an organization do most of the work. The 90% mostly gum up the works. He’s trying to get rid of the 90%.

  342. One theory on Musk’s approach to Twitter is that 10% of employees in an organization do most of the work. The 90% mostly gum up the works. He’s trying to get rid of the 90%.

  343. One theory on Musk’s approach to Twitter is that 10% of employees in an organization do most of the work. The 90% mostly gum up the works. He’s trying to get rid of the 90%.
    How very tidy.
    It’s just a great big mystery why not a single real-world organization made up of real-world humans has ever functioned as perfectly cleanly as the numbers in some people’s “theories.”
    Whether he’s working off some hare-brained over-simplified arithmetic theory or not, it looks like Musk is accounting for the entire 90% of gumming-up all by himself at this point.

  344. One theory on Musk’s approach to Twitter is that 10% of employees in an organization do most of the work. The 90% mostly gum up the works. He’s trying to get rid of the 90%.
    How very tidy.
    It’s just a great big mystery why not a single real-world organization made up of real-world humans has ever functioned as perfectly cleanly as the numbers in some people’s “theories.”
    Whether he’s working off some hare-brained over-simplified arithmetic theory or not, it looks like Musk is accounting for the entire 90% of gumming-up all by himself at this point.

  345. CharlesWT: One theory on Musk’s approach to Twitter is that 10% of employees in an organization do most of the work.

    Yes, that is a theory all right. I have another theory, let me put it in the form of a question: who in their right mind would want to work for a boss like this? My answer: (a) only someone who is a complete sycophant or (b) has no alternative.

  346. CharlesWT: One theory on Musk’s approach to Twitter is that 10% of employees in an organization do most of the work.

    Yes, that is a theory all right. I have another theory, let me put it in the form of a question: who in their right mind would want to work for a boss like this? My answer: (a) only someone who is a complete sycophant or (b) has no alternative.

  347. 10% of employees in an organization do most of the work. The 90% mostly gum up the works.
    Somehow, I’m having serious difficult believing that this happens much in the real world. Just too much opportunity for a competitor to find maybe 10% of the “gum up the works” types (far easier than trying to find all, or even most of them), and then cut prices while increasing profitability.
    I could maybe see 10% drones, max. Sure, a few employees may be superstars. But that doesn’t mean the rest are dispensable.

  348. 10% of employees in an organization do most of the work. The 90% mostly gum up the works.
    Somehow, I’m having serious difficult believing that this happens much in the real world. Just too much opportunity for a competitor to find maybe 10% of the “gum up the works” types (far easier than trying to find all, or even most of them), and then cut prices while increasing profitability.
    I could maybe see 10% drones, max. Sure, a few employees may be superstars. But that doesn’t mean the rest are dispensable.

  351. I think sycophants covers it, but it’s only a theory, may need some elaboration. And experimental confirmation. 🙂

  352. I think sycophants covers it, but it’s only a theory, may need some elaboration. And experimental confirmation. 🙂

  355. It’s just a great big mystery why not a single real-world organization made up of real-world humans has ever functioned as perfectly cleanly as the numbers in some people’s “theories.”
    Princeton’s Institute for Advanced Studies in its early days. Lockheed-Martin’s skunk works. Bell Labs’ research division. Maybe Xerox Parc. All notable for being part of a much larger company, and for having an “if you can’t produce the results, we have someplace for you elsewhere in the company” attitude.
    I was walking down the hall at Bell Labs with Bob Lucky one day. Bob was certainly one of the smartest people I’ve ever met and had a real talent for looking at a problem that stumped other people and seeing something the others are missing. He said to me “Mike, can I be honest for a moment?” I expected to hear bad things about myself. Instead he said, “Every morning I get up and look in the mirror and ask myself, ‘How can I possibly keep up at a place where everyone is so smart?'”
    I loved working at the Labs. I also heard stories from people who had been there and hated it because of the pressure.

  356. It’s just a great big mystery why not a single real-world organization made up of real-world humans has ever functioned as perfectly cleanly as the numbers in some people’s “theories.”
    Princeton’s Institute for Advanced Studies in its early days. Lockheed-Martin’s skunk works. Bell Labs’ research division. Maybe Xerox Parc. All notable for being part of a much larger company, and for having an “if you can’t produce the results, we have someplace for you elsewhere in the company” attitude.
    I was walking down the hall at Bell Labs with Bob Lucky one day. Bob was certainly one of the smartest people I’ve ever met and had a real talent for looking at a problem that stumped other people and seeing something the others are missing. He said to me “Mike, can I be honest for a moment?” I expected to hear bad things about myself. Instead he said, “Every morning I get up and look in the mirror and ask myself, ‘How can I possibly keep up at a place where everyone is so smart?'”
    I loved working at the Labs. I also heard stories from people who had been there and hated it because of the pressure.

  357. It’s one thing to put in extra hours, or make an extra effort, because you love what you do. Or even just because you believe strongly in whatever output the overall organization has.
    But doing it on command? Especially in an economy where jobs are going begging? Not likely to be a significant part of the workforce.

  358. It’s one thing to put in extra hours, or make an extra effort, because you love what you do. Or even just because you believe strongly in whatever output the overall organization has.
    But doing it on command? Especially in an economy where jobs are going begging? Not likely to be a significant part of the workforce.

  359. A Twitter thread on the theory.
    “Alright, I’m going to explain what Elon Musk is likely doing over there at Twitter. This is not a discussion on whether it’s RIGHT OR WRONG; just what’s happening.
    If I’m wrong, I’m sure he’ll pop up and say so.
    What Elon is engaged in is something called ‘Whaling and Culling.'”
    Oliver Campbell

  360. A Twitter thread on the theory.
    “Alright, I’m going to explain what Elon Musk is likely doing over there at Twitter. This is not a discussion on whether it’s RIGHT OR WRONG; just what’s happening.
    If I’m wrong, I’m sure he’ll pop up and say so.
    What Elon is engaged in is something called ‘Whaling and Culling.'”
    Oliver Campbell

  361. From Charles’ link:

    It’s a common refrain that you’ve probably heard at some point or another “10% of people do 90% of the work.”

    It’s also a common refrain that the 2020 election was stolen. One I have heard far more often that the 90/10 theory actually.

  362. From Charles’ link:

    It’s a common refrain that you’ve probably heard at some point or another “10% of people do 90% of the work.”

    It’s also a common refrain that the 2020 election was stolen. One I have heard far more often that the 90/10 theory actually.

  363. Against my better judgment I skimmed that twitter thread. I’m going to stop after this, because Michael’s examples notwithstanding, the temptation to snark leads to nothing useful. But I do wonder what the formula is for decided in 2 or 3 days who the 10% are. I mean, it’s all just so tidy. The real world isn’t like that.
    The end.

  364. Against my better judgment I skimmed that twitter thread. I’m going to stop after this, because Michael’s examples notwithstanding, the temptation to snark leads to nothing useful. But I do wonder what the formula is for decided in 2 or 3 days who the 10% are. I mean, it’s all just so tidy. The real world isn’t like that.
    The end.

  365. Among some people, the conventional wisdom if not common refrain, is that C-level executives do the important work, and the hourly workers are merely an operating expense. The “team members” at McDonald’s, the “associates” at WalMart, the drivers at UPS, the chicken gutters at Perdue — these are hardly doing their companies’ work, you see.
    –TP

  366. Among some people, the conventional wisdom if not common refrain, is that C-level executives do the important work, and the hourly workers are merely an operating expense. The “team members” at McDonald’s, the “associates” at WalMart, the drivers at UPS, the chicken gutters at Perdue — these are hardly doing their companies’ work, you see.
    –TP

  367. Yeah, no. The problem with Whaling and Culling in these and other examples is the notion that an artificially induced, extrinsic, arbitrary form of stress will reveal who the people are who are doing the important work in critical times.
    There are plenty of really brilliant and hard working people who look at Elon’s ultimatums and simply say to themselves, “I’m not going to be a trained monkey and dance just because he wants me to.” Some of the smartest and most vital people at any place of work are also the people who use soft power to resist bad ideas and hold out on their best work until TPTB are done trying the impossible and are ready to listen to the people who actually know how to fix things. I’ve worked with a lot of people like that. Not a one of them would expend extra effort on a bad idea just to please a boss who didn’t know enough to know which parts of the job were essential and which were not.
    So what Musk is actually going to get are not the Whales, but the people who are desperate to try to prove that they could be Whales. The Whales are just going to leave and be Whales somewhere that treats them better.

  368. Yeah, no. The problem with Whaling and Culling in these and other examples is the notion that an artificially induced, extrinsic, arbitrary form of stress will reveal who the people are who are doing the important work in critical times.
    There are plenty of really brilliant and hard working people who look at Elon’s ultimatums and simply say to themselves, “I’m not going to be a trained monkey and dance just because he wants me to.” Some of the smartest and most vital people at any place of work are also the people who use soft power to resist bad ideas and hold out on their best work until TPTB are done trying the impossible and are ready to listen to the people who actually know how to fix things. I’ve worked with a lot of people like that. Not a one of them would expend extra effort on a bad idea just to please a boss who didn’t know enough to know which parts of the job were essential and which were not.
    So what Musk is actually going to get are not the Whales, but the people who are desperate to try to prove that they could be Whales. The Whales are just going to leave and be Whales somewhere that treats them better.

  369. Thank you, nous.
    Part of what’s so irritating is the smug self-satisfaction of the genius who’s informing us of all this (I’m talking about the twitter guy, not CharlesWT). Whales in fact live in ecosystems. You can’t run an ocean OR a corporation with just the whales, or just the CEOs either, as we’d find out in a quick hurry if we relied only on *their* “real work” to get food to our tables.

  370. Thank you, nous.
    Part of what’s so irritating is the smug self-satisfaction of the genius who’s informing us of all this (I’m talking about the twitter guy, not CharlesWT). Whales in fact live in ecosystems. You can’t run an ocean OR a corporation with just the whales, or just the CEOs either, as we’d find out in a quick hurry if we relied only on *their* “real work” to get food to our tables.

  371. Don’t get me wrong, JanieM, Musk deserves most the scorn that’s getting heaped on him for the Twitter fiasco. He almost certainly let himself be goaded into a terrible decision, couldn’t get out of it, and is whacking every expense he can in hopes of freeing up enough cash flow to service the debt. People who do dumb leveraged buyouts almost always begin by whacking at the staff w/o thinking it through. Most of them don’t try to make excuses for it and threats about it on social media, of course.
    OTOH, a lot of people are making wild-assed guesses about the terms of the debt he took on. The bank probably loaned him $12B secured by a fixed X million shares of Tesla independent of price. Are there trigger conditions that make the loan callable? When is any interest actually due?
    I worked for years in an industry where companies carried what looked like staggering amounts of debt — much more than Elon took on to buy Twitter. Never missed an interest payment. Got sweet deals on rates. Never significantly reduced the amount of debt, just rolled loans over.
    No need to respond.

  372. Don’t get me wrong, JanieM, Musk deserves most the scorn that’s getting heaped on him for the Twitter fiasco. He almost certainly let himself be goaded into a terrible decision, couldn’t get out of it, and is whacking every expense he can in hopes of freeing up enough cash flow to service the debt. People who do dumb leveraged buyouts almost always begin by whacking at the staff w/o thinking it through. Most of them don’t try to make excuses for it and threats about it on social media, of course.
    OTOH, a lot of people are making wild-assed guesses about the terms of the debt he took on. The bank probably loaned him $12B secured by a fixed X million shares of Tesla independent of price. Are there trigger conditions that make the loan callable? When is any interest actually due?
    I worked for years in an industry where companies carried what looked like staggering amounts of debt — much more than Elon took on to buy Twitter. Never missed an interest payment. Got sweet deals on rates. Never significantly reduced the amount of debt, just rolled loans over.
    No need to respond.

  373. I just looked at the Campbell threads. It’s typical how he responds to people criticizing him—why are you mad at me, he says, when he is just describing how businesses act. But he isn’t just doing this— he is also defending it as a practice..
    One also sees this with apologists for some ruthless government and its human rights violations. It’s power worship disguised as someone describing how to be successful in the real world.

  374. I just looked at the Campbell threads. It’s typical how he responds to people criticizing him—why are you mad at me, he says, when he is just describing how businesses act. But he isn’t just doing this— he is also defending it as a practice..
    One also sees this with apologists for some ruthless government and its human rights violations. It’s power worship disguised as someone describing how to be successful in the real world.

  375. No need to respond.
    I’m pretty sure we’re talking past each other, and/or thinking about different aspects of the situation. I don’t care about the debt aspect of it and haven’t read more than a sentence or two about that. What I’m thinking about is the the human costs of how much power people like Musk and Clickbait have in the world. They are starting to remind me of each other, in fact.
    But I said I was going to stop several rounds ago, so it’s time to actually do that. I’ll go outside and clear my head. It should be easy, given that the chill is currently 25°.

  376. No need to respond.
    I’m pretty sure we’re talking past each other, and/or thinking about different aspects of the situation. I don’t care about the debt aspect of it and haven’t read more than a sentence or two about that. What I’m thinking about is the the human costs of how much power people like Musk and Clickbait have in the world. They are starting to remind me of each other, in fact.
    But I said I was going to stop several rounds ago, so it’s time to actually do that. I’ll go outside and clear my head. It should be easy, given that the chill is currently 25°.

  377. They are starting to remind me of each other, in fact
    This very thought occurred to me not two hours ago.

  378. They are starting to remind me of each other, in fact
    This very thought occurred to me not two hours ago.

  379. It should be easy, given that the chill is currently 25°.
    We’re down to 16 °F without considering the wind. We’re headed for 3 overnight. A couple of inches of snow last night, much less than the 8 inches they were predicting.

  380. It should be easy, given that the chill is currently 25°.
    We’re down to 16 °F without considering the wind. We’re headed for 3 overnight. A couple of inches of snow last night, much less than the 8 inches they were predicting.

  381. We’re down to 16 °F without considering the wind. We’re headed for 3 overnight.
    I’m just as happy to do it more gradually. 😉
    Although it hasn’t been all that gradual — we have had a very mild autumn, at least during the day, and the turn to deep frost and ice on the lake feels quite sudden.
    I think it was just last Saturday that it got up to 70, and I didn’t put my winter coat on until 2 days ago. But with the wind having dropped, it’s very beautiful outside right now — prime season for the Milky Way in these parts.

  382. We’re down to 16 °F without considering the wind. We’re headed for 3 overnight.
    I’m just as happy to do it more gradually. 😉
    Although it hasn’t been all that gradual — we have had a very mild autumn, at least during the day, and the turn to deep frost and ice on the lake feels quite sudden.
    I think it was just last Saturday that it got up to 70, and I didn’t put my winter coat on until 2 days ago. But with the wind having dropped, it’s very beautiful outside right now — prime season for the Milky Way in these parts.

  383. If you run a restaurant, the critical 10% of your employees are the chefs who make the dishes. That is, after all, what you are selling.
    So, obviously you should cut costs by firing the unnecessary workers. Starting with the guys who stand around all day doing nothing but wash the dishes.
    /snark

  384. If you run a restaurant, the critical 10% of your employees are the chefs who make the dishes. That is, after all, what you are selling.
    So, obviously you should cut costs by firing the unnecessary workers. Starting with the guys who stand around all day doing nothing but wash the dishes.
    /snark

  385. Other thought about Whaling and Culling…which are probably something like what JanieM was thinking about re:ecosystems.
    The other people who work with the whales are important support for those whales. They do the necessary, but not challenging work that also happens to be 90% of the actual work by volume, and free up the whales to take on the critical work.
    And they keep the whales from burning out. And they sometimes prove themselves to be the right person for the moment when the whale is not quite the right fit or when the whale has to Do Life Things and human for a while.
    Functional workplaces have a good mix of people of varying abilities and interests, all of which do important things.

  386. Other thought about Whaling and Culling…which are probably something like what JanieM was thinking about re:ecosystems.
    The other people who work with the whales are important support for those whales. They do the necessary, but not challenging work that also happens to be 90% of the actual work by volume, and free up the whales to take on the critical work.
    And they keep the whales from burning out. And they sometimes prove themselves to be the right person for the moment when the whale is not quite the right fit or when the whale has to Do Life Things and human for a while.
    Functional workplaces have a good mix of people of varying abilities and interests, all of which do important things.

  391. Well, since Musk has reactivated Trump’s Twitter account, that’s one less thing for him to whine about. (Not that I expect any noticable drop in the amount of whining.)
    Will he return? Or stay with his private platform? Figure a tiny bit of the former, and a lot of the latter.

  392. Well, since Musk has reactivated Trump’s Twitter account, that’s one less thing for him to whine about. (Not that I expect any noticable drop in the amount of whining.)
    Will he return? Or stay with his private platform? Figure a tiny bit of the former, and a lot of the latter.

  393. “Will he return? Or stay with his private platform? Figure a tiny bit of the former, and a lot of the latter.”
    You have a touching, childlike faith in Trump’s loyalty.
    Trump will be back on Twitster in a New York Minute, and badmouthing the LOSERS on his old platform.
    Kudos to everyone that ponied up the $8 to get their blue-check-mark and can now impersonate Trump to their heart’s content.
    Nuking Twitster from orbit is back on the table!

  394. “Will he return? Or stay with his private platform? Figure a tiny bit of the former, and a lot of the latter.”
    You have a touching, childlike faith in Trump’s loyalty.
    Trump will be back on Twitster in a New York Minute, and badmouthing the LOSERS on his old platform.
    Kudos to everyone that ponied up the $8 to get their blue-check-mark and can now impersonate Trump to their heart’s content.
    Nuking Twitster from orbit is back on the table!

  403. The current Congress has three working weeks left on its schedule before the Republican majority takes control. I assume the House committee that requested them, asserting the returns are relevant to possible legislation, won’t get to them before adjournment. And the new committee chair will tuck them away for the next two years.

  404. The current Congress has three working weeks left on its schedule before the Republican majority takes control. I assume the House committee that requested them, asserting the returns are relevant to possible legislation, won’t get to them before adjournment. And the new committee chair will tuck them away for the next two years.

  405. On one hand, when you lose the Supreme Court (and apparently the justices he appointed are not showing the kind of blind loyalty Trump expects from people he appoints), you’ve lost everything. Finding that will have to make Trump twitchy about the possible fate of future appeals.
    On the other hand, what are the chances that the House, in the month or so still remaining before the new majority takes over, actually writes and passes legislation addressing what is in there? Of course, the Democrats could introduce legislation next term. No chance it would ever go anywhere, but it might be a nice bit of performance art, if you’re into that.
    But perhaps, as is hardly unprecedented, those tax returns get leaked. Considering how frantically Trump has fought to avoid his returns going public, it would be fascinating to see what’s in there that he’s so keen to keep hidden.

  406. On one hand, when you lose the Supreme Court (and apparently the justices he appointed are not showing the kind of blind loyalty Trump expects from people he appoints), you’ve lost everything. Finding that will have to make Trump twitchy about the possible fate of future appeals.
    On the other hand, what are the chances that the House, in the month or so still remaining before the new majority takes over, actually writes and passes legislation addressing what is in there? Of course, the Democrats could introduce legislation next term. No chance it would ever go anywhere, but it might be a nice bit of performance art, if you’re into that.
    But perhaps, as is hardly unprecedented, those tax returns get leaked. Considering how frantically Trump has fought to avoid his returns going public, it would be fascinating to see what’s in there that he’s so keen to keep hidden.

  407. But perhaps, as is hardly unprecedented, those tax returns get leaked.
    I would guess not. Given the change of control, nothing the Republicans would like more than to start the new Congress with a massive investigation into the source of the leak of confidential materials. Not the sort of problem the new minority leader is going to want to deal with, either.
    If you want to be Machiavellian, of course, you can imagine the Republicans doing the leaking so they can put on a show investigation.

  408. But perhaps, as is hardly unprecedented, those tax returns get leaked.
    I would guess not. Given the change of control, nothing the Republicans would like more than to start the new Congress with a massive investigation into the source of the leak of confidential materials. Not the sort of problem the new minority leader is going to want to deal with, either.
    If you want to be Machiavellian, of course, you can imagine the Republicans doing the leaking so they can put on a show investigation.

  409. “If you want to be Machiavellian, of course, you can imagine the Republicans doing the leaking so they can put on a show investigation.”
    So, Alito’s fingerprints are on the leaked tax returns?
    Sounds plausible.

  410. “If you want to be Machiavellian, of course, you can imagine the Republicans doing the leaking so they can put on a show investigation.”
    So, Alito’s fingerprints are on the leaked tax returns?
    Sounds plausible.

  411. So, Alito’s fingerprints are on the leaked tax returns?
    Actual serious question… would the SCOTUS have seen the tax returns as part of making their decision? My guess is not.

  412. So, Alito’s fingerprints are on the leaked tax returns?
    Actual serious question… would the SCOTUS have seen the tax returns as part of making their decision? My guess is not.

  415. As I recall, the NYT did a story which indicated that they had seen the returns. (Or at least the summary pages.) But I haven’t seen that the returns themselves have been published. It seems like, if they had, a court would have ruled the subpoena moot.

  416. As I recall, the NYT did a story which indicated that they had seen the returns. (Or at least the summary pages.) But I haven’t seen that the returns themselves have been published. It seems like, if they had, a court would have ruled the subpoena moot.

  417. A few years back the NYT received and published parts of his New York state return for one year, in which he declared a $900M or so capital loss. As I recall, they didn’t have enough of the return to know how much of it he actually applied that year, and how much he carried over to offset income in future years.
    I believe the House committee is after both his personal returns and a bunch from the Trump Organization. Without the TO filings, his personal returns are largely meaningless: assorted payments from and to, and capital gains and losses transferred from and to, some subset of the >500 interlocked LLCs involved. Plus his presidential salary, of course.
    If they really want to understand what’s been happening, well, it’ll take a team of forensic accountants years.

  418. A few years back the NYT received and published parts of his New York state return for one year, in which he declared a $900M or so capital loss. As I recall, they didn’t have enough of the return to know how much of it he actually applied that year, and how much he carried over to offset income in future years.
    I believe the House committee is after both his personal returns and a bunch from the Trump Organization. Without the TO filings, his personal returns are largely meaningless: assorted payments from and to, and capital gains and losses transferred from and to, some subset of the >500 interlocked LLCs involved. Plus his presidential salary, of course.
    If they really want to understand what’s been happening, well, it’ll take a team of forensic accountants years.

  419. I was referring to this story from 2020.

    The New York Times has obtained tax-return data extending over more than two decades for Mr. Trump and the hundreds of companies that make up his business organization, including detailed information from his first two years in office.

  420. I was referring to this story from 2020.

    The New York Times has obtained tax-return data extending over more than two decades for Mr. Trump and the hundreds of companies that make up his business organization, including detailed information from his first two years in office.

  423. From a related article regarding the NYT reporting on Rump’s tax returns:
    Accountant testifies Trump claimed decade of huge tax losses
    https://apnews.com/article/business-new-york-manhattan-donald-trump-896e245936aaf71d26b1c29c0070c8eb

    Bender’s tax loss testimony echoed what The New York Times reported in 2020, when it obtained a trove of Trump’s tax returns. Many of the records reflected massive losses and little or no taxes paid, the newspaper reported at the time.
    The Times reported Trump paid no income tax in 11 of the 18 years whose records it reviewed, and that he paid just $750 in federal income tax in 2017, the year he became president. Citing other Trump tax records, The Times previously reported that in 1995 he claimed $915.7 million in losses, which he could have used to avoid future taxes under the law at the time.

  424. From a related article regarding the NYT reporting on Rump’s tax returns:
    Accountant testifies Trump claimed decade of huge tax losses
    https://apnews.com/article/business-new-york-manhattan-donald-trump-896e245936aaf71d26b1c29c0070c8eb

    Bender’s tax loss testimony echoed what The New York Times reported in 2020, when it obtained a trove of Trump’s tax returns. Many of the records reflected massive losses and little or no taxes paid, the newspaper reported at the time.
    The Times reported Trump paid no income tax in 11 of the 18 years whose records it reviewed, and that he paid just $750 in federal income tax in 2017, the year he became president. Citing other Trump tax records, The Times previously reported that in 1995 he claimed $915.7 million in losses, which he could have used to avoid future taxes under the law at the time.

  425. The Times reported Trump paid no income tax in 11 of the 18 years whose records it reviewed, and that he paid just $750 in federal income tax in 2017, the year he became president.
    And yet he and his family live with an opulence that only the most microscopic fraction of human beings ever get to indulge themselves in.
    I really don’t know why the rest of us put up with it. “We” let people get away with a level of greed and rapacity that first and foremost involves taking so much more of their share of the world’s goods (in the broadest material sense) that a lot of other people end up with nothing, or worse. More than get away with it: it seems to be fostered, encouraged, and above all celebrated in this culture/era.
    There is no imaginable sense in which Clickbait or his family, or Elon, or any other bazillionaires “earned” their wealth and the resulting power that they have over the lives of the rest of us.
    Yes, I know some of the answers to my own implied questions….
    Bah.
    I have been wanting to write a post on housing for a while. Sadly, I don’t have the time to do justice to even the headlines but here’s a sample.
    I live in the state that reputedly has the most second homes (and vacant homes) of any of the 50. Partly that’s because lots of Mainers, even of ordinary or very modest means, have “camps” — the Maine word for cottages with nothing more than the basics, where people go to get away from it all. (Yes, there’s an “away from it all” even when you’re already away from it all.)
    The pandemic has seen a staggering acceleration of prices and timing in the housing market…
    But here I am writing the post in an un-orderly fashion. Buttons have been pushed…
    What if “we” made a collective decision that no one could have two homes until everyone had one?

  426. The Times reported Trump paid no income tax in 11 of the 18 years whose records it reviewed, and that he paid just $750 in federal income tax in 2017, the year he became president.
    And yet he and his family live with an opulence that only the most microscopic fraction of human beings ever get to indulge themselves in.
    I really don’t know why the rest of us put up with it. “We” let people get away with a level of greed and rapacity that first and foremost involves taking so much more of their share of the world’s goods (in the broadest material sense) that a lot of other people end up with nothing, or worse. More than get away with it: it seems to be fostered, encouraged, and above all celebrated in this culture/era.
    There is no imaginable sense in which Clickbait or his family, or Elon, or any other bazillionaires “earned” their wealth and the resulting power that they have over the lives of the rest of us.
    Yes, I know some of the answers to my own implied questions….
    Bah.
    I have been wanting to write a post on housing for a while. Sadly, I don’t have the time to do justice to even the headlines but here’s a sample.
    I live in the state that reputedly has the most second homes (and vacant homes) of any of the 50. Partly that’s because lots of Mainers, even of ordinary or very modest means, have “camps” — the Maine word for cottages with nothing more than the basics, where people go to get away from it all. (Yes, there’s an “away from it all” even when you’re already away from it all.)
    The pandemic has seen a staggering acceleration of prices and timing in the housing market…
    But here I am writing the post in an un-orderly fashion. Buttons have been pushed…
    What if “we” made a collective decision that no one could have two homes until everyone had one?

  427. Uncompleted thought: lots of Mainers have “camps,” yes, so that skews the second/vacant home numbers. But lots of people, notably and all the more notable since Covid came, lots of people from outside Maine also have second homes here, and/or have been buying up real estate over the past three years in a way that has put house prices increasingly out of reach of even reasonably well off younger people. I know people who have done some house-hunting over the past three years, and it’s not uncommon for a house to be sold before they can even go and see it. Buyers are waiving inspections, just to grab the houses, even now that interest rates have gone way up.

  428. Uncompleted thought: lots of Mainers have “camps,” yes, so that skews the second/vacant home numbers. But lots of people, notably and all the more notable since Covid came, lots of people from outside Maine also have second homes here, and/or have been buying up real estate over the past three years in a way that has put house prices increasingly out of reach of even reasonably well off younger people. I know people who have done some house-hunting over the past three years, and it’s not uncommon for a house to be sold before they can even go and see it. Buyers are waiving inspections, just to grab the houses, even now that interest rates have gone way up.

  429. What if “we” made a collective decision that no one could have two homes until everyone had one?
    OK by me!
    Sadly, the only politically allowable collective decisions involve public policies to redistribute income and wealth upward or participate in wars in some fashion.
    Anything else is simply dismissed as pure communism.
    ps: Krugman had an interesting column on rents and inflation recently. Check it out.

  430. What if “we” made a collective decision that no one could have two homes until everyone had one?
    OK by me!
    Sadly, the only politically allowable collective decisions involve public policies to redistribute income and wealth upward or participate in wars in some fashion.
    Anything else is simply dismissed as pure communism.
    ps: Krugman had an interesting column on rents and inflation recently. Check it out.

  431. Sadly, the only politically allowable collective decisions involve public policies to redistribute income and wealth upward or participate in wars in some fashion.
    Anything else is simply dismissed as pure communism.
    Bit of an overstatement, don’t you think. Sure, there are definitely people who think that way. Some of them extremely influential. But there are a fair number of people who think otherwise. Including some in Congress. So while it may not be politically possible right now, that doesn’t mean that nothing can ever be done. There have, after all, been a variety of occasions when the top tax rates have been increased. (Including under some quite conservative Presidents.) So there’s no obvious reason to assume that it can never happen again.

  432. Sadly, the only politically allowable collective decisions involve public policies to redistribute income and wealth upward or participate in wars in some fashion.
    Anything else is simply dismissed as pure communism.
    Bit of an overstatement, don’t you think. Sure, there are definitely people who think that way. Some of them extremely influential. But there are a fair number of people who think otherwise. Including some in Congress. So while it may not be politically possible right now, that doesn’t mean that nothing can ever be done. There have, after all, been a variety of occasions when the top tax rates have been increased. (Including under some quite conservative Presidents.) So there’s no obvious reason to assume that it can never happen again.

  433. The housing comparison that got stuck in my head years ago is Denver and Detroit. Metro Denver has been booming, with very occasional pauses, for 40+ years — quite literally can barely build new housing (and commercial space, and warehouse space, and infrastructure) as fast as people are moving in. That includes the urban core. While that was happening, from time to time Detroit bought out the last owners in areas so they could shut off the utilities across whole blocks and raze the houses, as well as demolish hundreds of commercial sites.
    I have no reasonable ideas for dealing with the problem of significant amounts of housing in the wrong places.

  434. The housing comparison that got stuck in my head years ago is Denver and Detroit. Metro Denver has been booming, with very occasional pauses, for 40+ years — quite literally can barely build new housing (and commercial space, and warehouse space, and infrastructure) as fast as people are moving in. That includes the urban core. While that was happening, from time to time Detroit bought out the last owners in areas so they could shut off the utilities across whole blocks and raze the houses, as well as demolish hundreds of commercial sites.
    I have no reasonable ideas for dealing with the problem of significant amounts of housing in the wrong places.

  441. It will be interesting to see the impact on rents/housing prices as those who can work remotely start taking advantage of the fact that they can work from literally anywhere that has an Internet connection. No more need to live in a super high rent area — high rent because all those high paid people are clustering near the office that they now don’t go to.
    Rents may go up some in places where people like to live. Even if there are not much in the way of businesses there. Want to live in Montana (whether for the culture, or just because you like the wide open spaces)? But your company is located in Silicon Valley. No problem. And rents may come down in places which were previously overcrowded.
    Might be some interesting impacts on the cultural divide, too. IT folks moving to San Antonio haven’t turned Texas blue. But it would take a lot fewer people moving to Cheyenne to seriously impact Wyoming.

  442. It will be interesting to see the impact on rents/housing prices as those who can work remotely start taking advantage of the fact that they can work from literally anywhere that has an Internet connection. No more need to live in a super high rent area — high rent because all those high paid people are clustering near the office that they now don’t go to.
    Rents may go up some in places where people like to live. Even if there are not much in the way of businesses there. Want to live in Montana (whether for the culture, or just because you like the wide open spaces)? But your company is located in Silicon Valley. No problem. And rents may come down in places which were previously overcrowded.
    Might be some interesting impacts on the cultural divide, too. IT folks moving to San Antonio haven’t turned Texas blue. But it would take a lot fewer people moving to Cheyenne to seriously impact Wyoming.

  443. It will be interesting to see the impact on rents/housing prices as those who can work remotely start taking advantage of the fact that they can work from literally anywhere that has an Internet connection.
    Not an economist, never took an economics class, but I’m pretty sure there’s also some kind of relationship between wages and housing costs. So if a lot of the people who work in high-rent Silicon Valley or SF decide to disperse to Wyoming or Maine (this is already happening) where the rents are low, not only rents, but it seems to me salaries will start shifting.
    Oh, you don’t need $3000 a month to pay your rent on a small studio apartment? Then we don’t have to pay you as much in salary….
    Won’t happen immediately, will be messy. I would predict.

  444. It will be interesting to see the impact on rents/housing prices as those who can work remotely start taking advantage of the fact that they can work from literally anywhere that has an Internet connection.
    Not an economist, never took an economics class, but I’m pretty sure there’s also some kind of relationship between wages and housing costs. So if a lot of the people who work in high-rent Silicon Valley or SF decide to disperse to Wyoming or Maine (this is already happening) where the rents are low, not only rents, but it seems to me salaries will start shifting.
    Oh, you don’t need $3000 a month to pay your rent on a small studio apartment? Then we don’t have to pay you as much in salary….
    Won’t happen immediately, will be messy. I would predict.

  445. Now that I’ve posted that comment, I realize that we’ve had this bit of conversation before, where wj was speculating on how employees could hide their location from employers….
    If that’s possible, then in that negotiation I see employers saying okay, we’ll just pay you as though you live in Aroostook County. Take it or leave it. Depending, of course, on the state of (un)employment and a lot of other factors at the time.

  446. Now that I’ve posted that comment, I realize that we’ve had this bit of conversation before, where wj was speculating on how employees could hide their location from employers….
    If that’s possible, then in that negotiation I see employers saying okay, we’ll just pay you as though you live in Aroostook County. Take it or leave it. Depending, of course, on the state of (un)employment and a lot of other factors at the time.

  447. I see employers saying okay, we’ll just pay you as though you live in Aroostook County. Take it or leave it. Depending, of course, on the state of (un)employment and a lot of other factors at the time.
    That last is the critical factor. I can see some employers trying that. And discovering that their most competent employees are opting to leave it. Because part of what makes “take it or leave it” work is the limited alternate opportunities in a particular location, combined with the cost and hassle of relocating from that location.
    But those two (arguably critical) legs are gone. And while companies have gone with low end employees to hold down costs, that’s rarely the route to rapid growth and big long term success. Otherwise Indian companies, with access to lots of very well educated and dirt cheap (by American or European standards) labor, would already totally dominate the IT world. But although they have some successes, nothing like domination is in prospect.
    So overall, I’m not seeing wages crashing due to remote work. Perhaps, over the long term, they grow slower, just because employee demand for higher wages becomes less intense. But not more than that.

  448. I see employers saying okay, we’ll just pay you as though you live in Aroostook County. Take it or leave it. Depending, of course, on the state of (un)employment and a lot of other factors at the time.
    That last is the critical factor. I can see some employers trying that. And discovering that their most competent employees are opting to leave it. Because part of what makes “take it or leave it” work is the limited alternate opportunities in a particular location, combined with the cost and hassle of relocating from that location.
    But those two (arguably critical) legs are gone. And while companies have gone with low end employees to hold down costs, that’s rarely the route to rapid growth and big long term success. Otherwise Indian companies, with access to lots of very well educated and dirt cheap (by American or European standards) labor, would already totally dominate the IT world. But although they have some successes, nothing like domination is in prospect.
    So overall, I’m not seeing wages crashing due to remote work. Perhaps, over the long term, they grow slower, just because employee demand for higher wages becomes less intense. But not more than that.

  449. Suburbs and exurbs are spaces formed in response to fear and animus. They are zoned and patrolled with that implicit notion of threat at the very core of their collective identity.
    nous, you sound like someone who has never lived in either. Most suburbs, in my experience, formed due to a desire for more elbow room, while maintaining access to stuff (arts, specialized businesses, etc.) which requires a large population base for support.
    Why more elbow room? Sometimes it’s a psychological thing — some us find crowds draining. Sometimes it’s a matter of thinking that kids need open space where they can run around freely. (Not due to fear of crime so much as a rational fear of heedless kids in proximity to automobiles.) And sometimes it’s just a desire for space to have a garden one can putter around in.
    But fear and animus? Sure, a factor for some. But not the primary driver.

  450. Suburbs and exurbs are spaces formed in response to fear and animus. They are zoned and patrolled with that implicit notion of threat at the very core of their collective identity.
    nous, you sound like someone who has never lived in either. Most suburbs, in my experience, formed due to a desire for more elbow room, while maintaining access to stuff (arts, specialized businesses, etc.) which requires a large population base for support.
    Why more elbow room? Sometimes it’s a psychological thing — some us find crowds draining. Sometimes it’s a matter of thinking that kids need open space where they can run around freely. (Not due to fear of crime so much as a rational fear of heedless kids in proximity to automobiles.) And sometimes it’s just a desire for space to have a garden one can putter around in.
    But fear and animus? Sure, a factor for some. But not the primary driver.

  451. And yet…I lived in various Denver suburbs for a decade, and worked for a home developer during a chunk of that time. I live in Orange County right now.
    “More elbow room” is the hook on which people hang their notions of better schools and lower crime and higher resale values. These are the positive descriptions of people’s aspirations.
    They are also the flip side of white flight, redlining, and hypersegregation.
    When a suburb becomes more mixed and has more low income residents of color moving in you can bet that people will start looking for a different “more elbow room.”

  452. And yet…I lived in various Denver suburbs for a decade, and worked for a home developer during a chunk of that time. I live in Orange County right now.
    “More elbow room” is the hook on which people hang their notions of better schools and lower crime and higher resale values. These are the positive descriptions of people’s aspirations.
    They are also the flip side of white flight, redlining, and hypersegregation.
    When a suburb becomes more mixed and has more low income residents of color moving in you can bet that people will start looking for a different “more elbow room.”

  453. When a suburb becomes more mixed and has more low income residents of color moving in you can bet that people will start looking for a different “more elbow room.”
    And yet I live in a suburb which, when I was growing up, was essentially “lily white.” (Naturally there were Hispanics, but nobody paid much attention. Or even had a term for them — a Spanish surname was about as relevant as a Swedish or French, or German one.) These days, it is far more mixed. And still struggling with more people wanting to move here, regardless.
    People move for cheaper housing, especially once their kids are grown — a house here makes a pretty good retirement fund. People die, of course. But anything resembling an exodus for “more elbow room”? No sign of it.

  454. When a suburb becomes more mixed and has more low income residents of color moving in you can bet that people will start looking for a different “more elbow room.”
    And yet I live in a suburb which, when I was growing up, was essentially “lily white.” (Naturally there were Hispanics, but nobody paid much attention. Or even had a term for them — a Spanish surname was about as relevant as a Swedish or French, or German one.) These days, it is far more mixed. And still struggling with more people wanting to move here, regardless.
    People move for cheaper housing, especially once their kids are grown — a house here makes a pretty good retirement fund. People die, of course. But anything resembling an exodus for “more elbow room”? No sign of it.

  455. I’ve been away for a few days, and am still catching up, but since this was originally a thread to talk about the aftermath of the midterms I thought anyone who hadn’t already read it might be interested in this, by Frances Fox Piven, in today’s Grauniad:
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/24/frances-fox-piven-interview-midterms-trump-fascism
    All the main elements are now in place, she said, for America to take a turn to the dark side. “There is the crazy mob, Maga; an elite that is oblivious to what is required for political stability; and a grab-it-and-run mentality that is very strong, very dangerous. I was very frightened about what would happen in the election, and it could still happen.”
    That Piven is cautioning against a false sense of security in the wake of the midterms would not surprise her many students and admirers. The co-author, with her late husband Richard Cloward, of the progressive bible, Poor People’s Movements: Why They Succeed, How They Fail, has for decades sounded the alarm.
    She has raised red flags over the vulnerabilities of the country’s democracy, the inequalities baked into its electoral and judicial systems, and how poor Americans, especially those of colour, are forced to resort to defiance and disruption to get their voices heard. Now, with the Republicans having taken the House of Representatives, she foresees ugly times ahead.
    “There’s going to be a lot of vengeance politics, a lot of efforts to get back at Joe Biden, idiot stuff. And that will rile up a lot of people. The Maga mob is not a majority of the American population by any stretch of the imagination, but the fascist mob don’t have to be the majority to set in motion the kinds of policies that crush democracy.”

  456. I’ve been away for a few days, and am still catching up, but since this was originally a thread to talk about the aftermath of the midterms I thought anyone who hadn’t already read it might be interested in this, by Frances Fox Piven, in today’s Grauniad:
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/24/frances-fox-piven-interview-midterms-trump-fascism
    All the main elements are now in place, she said, for America to take a turn to the dark side. “There is the crazy mob, Maga; an elite that is oblivious to what is required for political stability; and a grab-it-and-run mentality that is very strong, very dangerous. I was very frightened about what would happen in the election, and it could still happen.”
    That Piven is cautioning against a false sense of security in the wake of the midterms would not surprise her many students and admirers. The co-author, with her late husband Richard Cloward, of the progressive bible, Poor People’s Movements: Why They Succeed, How They Fail, has for decades sounded the alarm.
    She has raised red flags over the vulnerabilities of the country’s democracy, the inequalities baked into its electoral and judicial systems, and how poor Americans, especially those of colour, are forced to resort to defiance and disruption to get their voices heard. Now, with the Republicans having taken the House of Representatives, she foresees ugly times ahead.
    “There’s going to be a lot of vengeance politics, a lot of efforts to get back at Joe Biden, idiot stuff. And that will rile up a lot of people. The Maga mob is not a majority of the American population by any stretch of the imagination, but the fascist mob don’t have to be the majority to set in motion the kinds of policies that crush democracy.”

  459. “…the fascist mob don’t have to be the majority to set in motion the kinds of policies that crush democracy.”
    I would think, however, that they would have to actually have some policies. As far as I can see, the vast majority of Republican politicians, at least at the national level, are totally focused on performance art. I suppose that they might rubber stamp some policies written by the Federalist Society or similar groups. But even then I would expect them to be careful not to enact anything that might make a substantive difference. If only because removing the causes of fear in their constituents would be a path to getting voted out of office.**
    ** OK, they could focus on eliminating the ability of people other than their base to vote. But their base is small enough that it would take years of whittling away at the edges to reduce the voting rolls to MAGAts only. And until they do that, they can still lose; all it takes is being so blatant that the rest of the electorate notices. See, for example, what happened over abortion, even in supposedly very conservative states.

  460. “…the fascist mob don’t have to be the majority to set in motion the kinds of policies that crush democracy.”
    I would think, however, that they would have to actually have some policies. As far as I can see, the vast majority of Republican politicians, at least at the national level, are totally focused on performance art. I suppose that they might rubber stamp some policies written by the Federalist Society or similar groups. But even then I would expect them to be careful not to enact anything that might make a substantive difference. If only because removing the causes of fear in their constituents would be a path to getting voted out of office.**
    ** OK, they could focus on eliminating the ability of people other than their base to vote. But their base is small enough that it would take years of whittling away at the edges to reduce the voting rolls to MAGAts only. And until they do that, they can still lose; all it takes is being so blatant that the rest of the electorate notices. See, for example, what happened over abortion, even in supposedly very conservative states.

  461. Note that this isn’t an argument for complacency, or anything like it. Just a suggestion that disaster isn’t inevitable.

  462. Note that this isn’t an argument for complacency, or anything like it. Just a suggestion that disaster isn’t inevitable.

  463. One thing which surprised me about the House election was the close correspondence between votes cast (Rs got 3.1% more of the votes counted so far than Ds) and seats (Rs got 1.8% more than Ds).
    This is nothing like the 2012 election, when Ds won the popular vote and Rs got 33 more seats. Since then, the party getting most votes has won a majority of the seats, with the R bias steadily decreasing, and now apparently negative.
    What’s the story?

  464. One thing which surprised me about the House election was the close correspondence between votes cast (Rs got 3.1% more of the votes counted so far than Ds) and seats (Rs got 1.8% more than Ds).
    This is nothing like the 2012 election, when Ds won the popular vote and Rs got 33 more seats. Since then, the party getting most votes has won a majority of the seats, with the R bias steadily decreasing, and now apparently negative.
    What’s the story?

  465. Combination of marginal opportunities for more gerrymandering plus more states using independent districting bodies. Would be my guess.

  466. Combination of marginal opportunities for more gerrymandering plus more states using independent districting bodies. Would be my guess.

  467. I have not looked at how many districts were uncontested, if there was a preponderance of uncontested D seats in previous elections that would create additional skew national vote totals vs. seats.

  468. I have not looked at how many districts were uncontested, if there was a preponderance of uncontested D seats in previous elections that would create additional skew national vote totals vs. seats.

  469. I lent my copy of the Mythical Man-Month to a manager. A central argument and prescription for success in that book is the vital need for clear, well ordered communication in a large technical project.
    Re the Mythical Man-Month, RIP Fred Brooks (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/23/technology/frederick-p-brooks-jr-dead.html). As one of his students for a few years in the 90s, I have to say that it helped me learn one of the themes of my teaching/parenting/professional career: no matter how clear his communication was, the student/recipient of the communication has to be motivated to listen. I should have listened more to some of what he was saying. Secondarily, culture can mean a lot: as a west-coast Silicon Valley atheist kid I missed so much implicit expectation in this east-coast southern deeply religious context.
    All y’all Brits are wacky. And I’ll venture a guess that it has something to do with the deep and abiding effects of classism?
    Still an immigrant, so I can’t speak to deeper issues like classism, but among my kids: eldest took a broad range of exams at 16, then only had three subjects 16-18, and has no general education requirements at university: it’s three years focused on their specialty. The three subjects they had 16-18 are effectively the same thing they’re studying at uni, and although they nominally studied more advanced topics in the sciences than a 15-year-old American would, it was briefer and more superficial.
    This young person had a higher score on the SATs at age 12 or 13 than the average 17-year-old in North Carolina, but now mocks their own math (in)ability. I’m not sure which of those two takes is the truth.
    As someone involved for hiring for high-end STEM jobs, the results of those three year UK university degrees are supposed to be comparable _in their specialty_ to a USA four-year degree + some of a USA master’s, but it’s really hit-and-miss with individual candidates.

  470. I lent my copy of the Mythical Man-Month to a manager. A central argument and prescription for success in that book is the vital need for clear, well ordered communication in a large technical project.
    Re the Mythical Man-Month, RIP Fred Brooks (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/23/technology/frederick-p-brooks-jr-dead.html). As one of his students for a few years in the 90s, I have to say that it helped me learn one of the themes of my teaching/parenting/professional career: no matter how clear his communication was, the student/recipient of the communication has to be motivated to listen. I should have listened more to some of what he was saying. Secondarily, culture can mean a lot: as a west-coast Silicon Valley atheist kid I missed so much implicit expectation in this east-coast southern deeply religious context.
    All y’all Brits are wacky. And I’ll venture a guess that it has something to do with the deep and abiding effects of classism?
    Still an immigrant, so I can’t speak to deeper issues like classism, but among my kids: eldest took a broad range of exams at 16, then only had three subjects 16-18, and has no general education requirements at university: it’s three years focused on their specialty. The three subjects they had 16-18 are effectively the same thing they’re studying at uni, and although they nominally studied more advanced topics in the sciences than a 15-year-old American would, it was briefer and more superficial.
    This young person had a higher score on the SATs at age 12 or 13 than the average 17-year-old in North Carolina, but now mocks their own math (in)ability. I’m not sure which of those two takes is the truth.
    As someone involved for hiring for high-end STEM jobs, the results of those three year UK university degrees are supposed to be comparable _in their specialty_ to a USA four-year degree + some of a USA master’s, but it’s really hit-and-miss with individual candidates.

  471. All y’all are wacky. And I’ll venture a guess that it has something to do with the deep and abiding effects of classism?
    I don’t see what classism has got to do with it.
    Personally I’m very glad to have been allowed to abandon school study of the humanities at 16. Two more years might have killed my interest forever.
    This young person had a higher score on the SATs at age 12 or 13 than the average 17-year-old in North Carolina, but now mocks their own math (in)ability. I’m not sure which of those two takes is the truth.
    They’re both true. The range of abilities in maths is huge.

  472. All y’all are wacky. And I’ll venture a guess that it has something to do with the deep and abiding effects of classism?
    I don’t see what classism has got to do with it.
    Personally I’m very glad to have been allowed to abandon school study of the humanities at 16. Two more years might have killed my interest forever.
    This young person had a higher score on the SATs at age 12 or 13 than the average 17-year-old in North Carolina, but now mocks their own math (in)ability. I’m not sure which of those two takes is the truth.
    They’re both true. The range of abilities in maths is huge.

  473. re classism and education
    Kinda curious where you went to school Pro Bono.
    My take is that it seems like a general European thing to do streaming a lot earlier and a lot more strictly than any American would have the stomach for (unless it is for sports, I suppose). For example, we have a student who is doing undergraduate from the Netherlands and is a lot older than the other students. While he is easily college material, an illness while he was at around 10 or so kept him out of school and so he could not get into the college track.
    Note that this is just places. He is here because he qualified and got in, and he gets scholarship support from back home, so it’s not a question of money, it is a question of the number of available places for higher ed students.
    This means that if you go into humanities, at least in Holland, you can safely ignore math when you are 12(!) and concentrate on what you intend to study in university, or chuck out humanities cause you want to go into. (according to Wikipedia, there is math, but it is stats and stochastic reasoning, which seems like a pretty interesting idea)
    This may be more of a quirk of the Dutch system (the wikipedia article is a fun read)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Netherlands
    But my (now quite ancient) understanding of French, German and UK schooling was that it really had kids make up their mind earlier which means dropping things that are peripheral, though I don’t think 12 is when they have to decide.
    I don’t think one system is better than the other, I do think there are some (maybe 25%) who really benefit from making an early decision and another 25% who could really use more time. However, the former system encourages a certain amount of statism, while the latter encourages a huge emphasis on individualism.
    The biggest problem with the latter system, istm is it is so easy to try and monetize those choices, which then gets the kind of financial driven decision making that you see so much at US universities. This makes them a lot more susceptible to the current black clouds, the enrollment and fiscal cliffs.
    There are a ton of articles about it, here’s one pulled at random
    https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/blogs/online-trending-now/second-demographic-cliff-adds-urgency-change

  474. re classism and education
    Kinda curious where you went to school Pro Bono.
    My take is that it seems like a general European thing to do streaming a lot earlier and a lot more strictly than any American would have the stomach for (unless it is for sports, I suppose). For example, we have a student who is doing undergraduate from the Netherlands and is a lot older than the other students. While he is easily college material, an illness while he was at around 10 or so kept him out of school and so he could not get into the college track.
    Note that this is just places. He is here because he qualified and got in, and he gets scholarship support from back home, so it’s not a question of money, it is a question of the number of available places for higher ed students.
    This means that if you go into humanities, at least in Holland, you can safely ignore math when you are 12(!) and concentrate on what you intend to study in university, or chuck out humanities cause you want to go into. (according to Wikipedia, there is math, but it is stats and stochastic reasoning, which seems like a pretty interesting idea)
    This may be more of a quirk of the Dutch system (the wikipedia article is a fun read)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Netherlands
    But my (now quite ancient) understanding of French, German and UK schooling was that it really had kids make up their mind earlier which means dropping things that are peripheral, though I don’t think 12 is when they have to decide.
    I don’t think one system is better than the other, I do think there are some (maybe 25%) who really benefit from making an early decision and another 25% who could really use more time. However, the former system encourages a certain amount of statism, while the latter encourages a huge emphasis on individualism.
    The biggest problem with the latter system, istm is it is so easy to try and monetize those choices, which then gets the kind of financial driven decision making that you see so much at US universities. This makes them a lot more susceptible to the current black clouds, the enrollment and fiscal cliffs.
    There are a ton of articles about it, here’s one pulled at random
    https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/blogs/online-trending-now/second-demographic-cliff-adds-urgency-change

  475. I do think there are some (maybe 25%) who really benefit from making an early decision and another 25% who could really use more time.
    My, also ancient, recollection from university is that all majors had “breadth requirements.” Even Engineering had them. (Although for Engineering majors, in contrast to everybody else, Freshman English was not included. Which perhaps gives a glimmer of why technical documents are so frequently poorly written.)
    Those weren’t particularly extensive. However they did tend to give everybody at least a couple of glimpses outside whatever specialty they were aiming for.
    The other feature was that in was not at all unusual for someone to spend their first two years doing breadth requirements, and not even select a major until their third year (say age 20).
    I think personally that this was a good thing. Actually, for me, a great thing. I’m obviously part of lj’s 25%, but I even contrived to keep taking courses outside my major(s) thru a couple of years of grad school. Not only do I think a broad curriculum gives a better rounded human being, it also means that, in a world where major changes can hit almost any career, it gives you more options to adapt.

  476. I do think there are some (maybe 25%) who really benefit from making an early decision and another 25% who could really use more time.
    My, also ancient, recollection from university is that all majors had “breadth requirements.” Even Engineering had them. (Although for Engineering majors, in contrast to everybody else, Freshman English was not included. Which perhaps gives a glimmer of why technical documents are so frequently poorly written.)
    Those weren’t particularly extensive. However they did tend to give everybody at least a couple of glimpses outside whatever specialty they were aiming for.
    The other feature was that in was not at all unusual for someone to spend their first two years doing breadth requirements, and not even select a major until their third year (say age 20).
    I think personally that this was a good thing. Actually, for me, a great thing. I’m obviously part of lj’s 25%, but I even contrived to keep taking courses outside my major(s) thru a couple of years of grad school. Not only do I think a broad curriculum gives a better rounded human being, it also means that, in a world where major changes can hit almost any career, it gives you more options to adapt.

  477. The biggest problem with the latter system, istm is it is so easy to try and monetize those choices, which then gets the kind of financial driven decision making that you see so much at US universities. This makes them a lot more susceptible to the current black clouds, the enrollment and fiscal cliffs.
    There are a ton of articles about it, here’s one pulled at random
    https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/blogs/online-trending-now/second-demographic-cliff-adds-urgency-change
    One line from lj’s link jumped out at me: “Motivated by the need to generate more tuition and housing money, universities have looked to increasing the on-campus undergraduate student base.”
    The idea that universities need, for financial reasons, to keep growing their student bodies makes me twitchy. Grow them to keep pace with a growing population? Sure. But for financial reasons???
    But then, I grew up in an era where states routinely subsidized higher education for their residents. Total tuition-and-fees for a 4 year degree, for residents**, might amount 20% of the median income in the state. Not the median salary for college graduates, mind, but the median for the whole population. And scholarships were available as well.
    ** “Out of state” tuition ran higher, since it wasn’t subsidized. But while far from everyone went to college, financial constrains weren’t the issue unless you felt compelled to go to school out of state or at a private college.

  478. The biggest problem with the latter system, istm is it is so easy to try and monetize those choices, which then gets the kind of financial driven decision making that you see so much at US universities. This makes them a lot more susceptible to the current black clouds, the enrollment and fiscal cliffs.
    There are a ton of articles about it, here’s one pulled at random
    https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/blogs/online-trending-now/second-demographic-cliff-adds-urgency-change
    One line from lj’s link jumped out at me: “Motivated by the need to generate more tuition and housing money, universities have looked to increasing the on-campus undergraduate student base.”
    The idea that universities need, for financial reasons, to keep growing their student bodies makes me twitchy. Grow them to keep pace with a growing population? Sure. But for financial reasons???
    But then, I grew up in an era where states routinely subsidized higher education for their residents. Total tuition-and-fees for a 4 year degree, for residents**, might amount 20% of the median income in the state. Not the median salary for college graduates, mind, but the median for the whole population. And scholarships were available as well.
    ** “Out of state” tuition ran higher, since it wasn’t subsidized. But while far from everyone went to college, financial constrains weren’t the issue unless you felt compelled to go to school out of state or at a private college.

  479. Higher Ed in the US has been MBAed into something other than an educational institution. A lot of this was occasioned by the free market love-in of the 80s combined with the hippie punching backlash of the Reagan Era. The state portion of public university budgets were slashed and the professional management class in university administrations found themselves tasked with alternative means of funding. Most of the admin now is made up of former business majors who have never actually had any experience teaching and have no real love for education. They know bond financing and marketing. That’s what sits in the decision making chair at most public universities.
    The current strike at the UCs is largely about this mismatch of administrative priorities and educational mission.
    It’s coming for pretty much every campus in the US in some form. The model we have is unsustainable and dysfunctional.

  480. Higher Ed in the US has been MBAed into something other than an educational institution. A lot of this was occasioned by the free market love-in of the 80s combined with the hippie punching backlash of the Reagan Era. The state portion of public university budgets were slashed and the professional management class in university administrations found themselves tasked with alternative means of funding. Most of the admin now is made up of former business majors who have never actually had any experience teaching and have no real love for education. They know bond financing and marketing. That’s what sits in the decision making chair at most public universities.
    The current strike at the UCs is largely about this mismatch of administrative priorities and educational mission.
    It’s coming for pretty much every campus in the US in some form. The model we have is unsustainable and dysfunctional.

  481. The model we have is unsustainable and dysfunctional.
    We probably need to revive the California Master Plan for Higher Education. There might be some updating required, of course, after some 60 years.** But even without that, it would be an improvement.
    ** That’s nous and me, reactionaries looking to bring back the early 1960s. 😉

  482. The model we have is unsustainable and dysfunctional.
    We probably need to revive the California Master Plan for Higher Education. There might be some updating required, of course, after some 60 years.** But even without that, it would be an improvement.
    ** That’s nous and me, reactionaries looking to bring back the early 1960s. 😉

  483. I can join the “reactionary” club on this one — I have mentioned the tuition levels of my young adulthood more than once here, back when the great state universities were within reach of almost anyone who lived in state.
    But that’s communism. Or socialism? I get so confused. Anyhow, it goes against the notion that everything should be monetized and providing profit to someone (not us). Heaven forbid public goods should be funded by the public, and provide no $ profit to anyone. (Only societal profit, which, so unfortunately, accrues to all of us. That’s not the way it’s supposed to be!)
    Also, I chuckled a bit at nous mentioning “the free market love-in of the 80s” and “the Reagan Era” as though those were two different time periods. LOL.

  484. I can join the “reactionary” club on this one — I have mentioned the tuition levels of my young adulthood more than once here, back when the great state universities were within reach of almost anyone who lived in state.
    But that’s communism. Or socialism? I get so confused. Anyhow, it goes against the notion that everything should be monetized and providing profit to someone (not us). Heaven forbid public goods should be funded by the public, and provide no $ profit to anyone. (Only societal profit, which, so unfortunately, accrues to all of us. That’s not the way it’s supposed to be!)
    Also, I chuckled a bit at nous mentioning “the free market love-in of the 80s” and “the Reagan Era” as though those were two different time periods. LOL.

  485. I chuckled a bit at nous mentioning “the free market love-in of the 80s” and “the Reagan Era” as though those were two different time periods.
    For those of us in California, the “Reagan Era” starts when he becomes Governor of California in 1967 (a post he held until 1975).

  486. I chuckled a bit at nous mentioning “the free market love-in of the 80s” and “the Reagan Era” as though those were two different time periods.
    For those of us in California, the “Reagan Era” starts when he becomes Governor of California in 1967 (a post he held until 1975).

  489. I don’t see what classism has got to do with it.
    When I agreed with the comment (I think I did, but it seems a long time ago now!) I was thinking of e.g. classics, which I guess were more pushed, or possible, at public (i.e. private) schools. I did Latin and Ancient Greek at “O” level (i.e. age 16), and Latin at “A” level (i.e. age 18), and I’m not sure how easy or advisable that would have been at a state school. (Mind you, I’m not sure they were such great choices anyway.) But as for the ability to drop Maths and Sciences after “O” level, I don’t suppose there was any class aspect to that at all. And on the whole, I agree with wj and Janie, I think it is far better for kids (or young adults) to have at least some education in the sciences, maths, and humanities past the age of 16, whatever their major area of study.

  490. I don’t see what classism has got to do with it.
    When I agreed with the comment (I think I did, but it seems a long time ago now!) I was thinking of e.g. classics, which I guess were more pushed, or possible, at public (i.e. private) schools. I did Latin and Ancient Greek at “O” level (i.e. age 16), and Latin at “A” level (i.e. age 18), and I’m not sure how easy or advisable that would have been at a state school. (Mind you, I’m not sure they were such great choices anyway.) But as for the ability to drop Maths and Sciences after “O” level, I don’t suppose there was any class aspect to that at all. And on the whole, I agree with wj and Janie, I think it is far better for kids (or young adults) to have at least some education in the sciences, maths, and humanities past the age of 16, whatever their major area of study.

  491. on the whole, I agree with wj and Janie, I think it is far better for kids (or young adults) to have at least some education in the sciences, maths, and humanities past the age of 16, whatever their major area of study.
    If you do that, you have education. Without it, you merely have training, specifically training for some particular narrow specialty — one which happens to already exist. (AND which you happen, as a child, to have heard of. Some people successfully find their passion in life quite early. But many of us do not.)

  492. on the whole, I agree with wj and Janie, I think it is far better for kids (or young adults) to have at least some education in the sciences, maths, and humanities past the age of 16, whatever their major area of study.
    If you do that, you have education. Without it, you merely have training, specifically training for some particular narrow specialty — one which happens to already exist. (AND which you happen, as a child, to have heard of. Some people successfully find their passion in life quite early. But many of us do not.)

  493. My, also ancient, recollection from university is that all majors had “breadth requirements.”
    That’s a US centric thing. European universities don’t really have that so much. It is largely historical, and before the synchronization of degrees (the Bologna process, which seems like a great metaphor for education) some european countries didn’t even have a university undergraduate degree.
    The Core curriculum for universites was an early 20th century US idea and a lot of this (including the ideas of class credit and contact hours) were driven by economic considerations rather than educaitonal ones

  494. My, also ancient, recollection from university is that all majors had “breadth requirements.”
    That’s a US centric thing. European universities don’t really have that so much. It is largely historical, and before the synchronization of degrees (the Bologna process, which seems like a great metaphor for education) some european countries didn’t even have a university undergraduate degree.
    The Core curriculum for universites was an early 20th century US idea and a lot of this (including the ideas of class credit and contact hours) were driven by economic considerations rather than educaitonal ones

  495. So, if you don’t expose students to the entire breadth of subjects, how do those who would be interested to things that don’t get touched on in the first 10 years of education even find out that those exist? I ask as someone who ended up with a couple of degrees in Anthropology — a subject I had never even heard of before my second year at university (say age 19).

  496. So, if you don’t expose students to the entire breadth of subjects, how do those who would be interested to things that don’t get touched on in the first 10 years of education even find out that those exist? I ask as someone who ended up with a couple of degrees in Anthropology — a subject I had never even heard of before my second year at university (say age 19).

  497. That’s a good question, but if the university has a smaller number of majors and Anthro might be within something like Social Sciences, you assume that a person with a latent interest in that would find it.
    Don’t forget, universities are historically built on a guild system, so it is the same kind of dynamics you might see in a pipefitters or an electrician’s union. This is why nous’ comment about classism is interesting, a system organized like this will not have as much movement as a system organized in the way the US system is, but I’m not sure it is ‘classism’ per se.
    A lot of other things flow from this. In Europe, you often have a final assessment and whether you attend class or not isn’t really an issue. In the US, continuous assessment is more the norm, with attendance and quizzes coming along with that.
    The whole idea of breadth requirements creates a situation where you have core courses which then need to be taught to everyone, which then feeds into having grad schools so that grad students can teach these sections and are then encouraged to try and get to the top of the greased pole that is academia. While I don’t think it was inevitable that things would turn out this way, the idea that a university first mold students after their first few years and then set them off on higher level courses can be viewed as a business proposition, a way to get a large enough population of students to generate the revenue. Like the old joke about a chicken being an egg’s way of making another egg.
    Breadth requirements did keep smaller subjects on the table (if you have sections of 100+ for English, you can have a classics teacher teach a section of Greek for the hopelessly romantic like me). So I appreciate it, but when I thought that I’d like to go into Classics, my Greek teacher said naw, you started learning Greek at 21, it’s difficult to imagine getting the ability you need in order to make it a job. It’s similar to playing an instrument. While you hear about people who picked up something when they were 20 and then found success, they are outliers and most people. if they didn’t start doing music seriously when they were in their early teens, had a serious aptitude for it.
    This isn’t a defense of the European style, but it’s important to realize that things don’t have to be organized the way they are in the US. And if there is a social consensus around the way that is organized, while some square pegs not find a place in an early streamed education system, just as many are not going to find a place because they didn’t get that dose when they were in their early teens.

  498. That’s a good question, but if the university has a smaller number of majors and Anthro might be within something like Social Sciences, you assume that a person with a latent interest in that would find it.
    Don’t forget, universities are historically built on a guild system, so it is the same kind of dynamics you might see in a pipefitters or an electrician’s union. This is why nous’ comment about classism is interesting, a system organized like this will not have as much movement as a system organized in the way the US system is, but I’m not sure it is ‘classism’ per se.
    A lot of other things flow from this. In Europe, you often have a final assessment and whether you attend class or not isn’t really an issue. In the US, continuous assessment is more the norm, with attendance and quizzes coming along with that.
    The whole idea of breadth requirements creates a situation where you have core courses which then need to be taught to everyone, which then feeds into having grad schools so that grad students can teach these sections and are then encouraged to try and get to the top of the greased pole that is academia. While I don’t think it was inevitable that things would turn out this way, the idea that a university first mold students after their first few years and then set them off on higher level courses can be viewed as a business proposition, a way to get a large enough population of students to generate the revenue. Like the old joke about a chicken being an egg’s way of making another egg.
    Breadth requirements did keep smaller subjects on the table (if you have sections of 100+ for English, you can have a classics teacher teach a section of Greek for the hopelessly romantic like me). So I appreciate it, but when I thought that I’d like to go into Classics, my Greek teacher said naw, you started learning Greek at 21, it’s difficult to imagine getting the ability you need in order to make it a job. It’s similar to playing an instrument. While you hear about people who picked up something when they were 20 and then found success, they are outliers and most people. if they didn’t start doing music seriously when they were in their early teens, had a serious aptitude for it.
    This isn’t a defense of the European style, but it’s important to realize that things don’t have to be organized the way they are in the US. And if there is a social consensus around the way that is organized, while some square pegs not find a place in an early streamed education system, just as many are not going to find a place because they didn’t get that dose when they were in their early teens.

  501. The flip side of what lj is describing would be aiming not for breadth, but for connections as a way of seeing how regimes of knowledge fit together. The Finnish model of project learning would keep kids in contact with many fields of inquiry through collaboration while letting them do some deep diving into subjects for which they have interest and aptitude. I think we would do well to try to stretch each student into being as much of a polymath as they could manage, while nurturing a sense of intellectual curiosity that would set them to finding places to challenge themselves and find a path.
    Majors are too narrow and departments too insular. What we really need are networks of interdisciplinary inquiry that reward collaboration and encourage respect for different methodologies and epistemologies.

  502. The flip side of what lj is describing would be aiming not for breadth, but for connections as a way of seeing how regimes of knowledge fit together. The Finnish model of project learning would keep kids in contact with many fields of inquiry through collaboration while letting them do some deep diving into subjects for which they have interest and aptitude. I think we would do well to try to stretch each student into being as much of a polymath as they could manage, while nurturing a sense of intellectual curiosity that would set them to finding places to challenge themselves and find a path.
    Majors are too narrow and departments too insular. What we really need are networks of interdisciplinary inquiry that reward collaboration and encourage respect for different methodologies and epistemologies.

  503. Breadth of interest is important. I doubt that it’s encouraged by making people take courses they’d rather not.
    It’s probably a good idea for STEM students to take a writing class. It’s very probably a good idea for humanities students to take a stats class. But it’s best if they do it because they want to, not because they’re made to.
    It’s widely said, and true for me, that the stuff one studies at university is likely to be not much used in one’s working life. So university shoud be about learning how to acquire new skills at a high level. I suggest that this is best done by teaching people things they want to learn.

  504. Breadth of interest is important. I doubt that it’s encouraged by making people take courses they’d rather not.
    It’s probably a good idea for STEM students to take a writing class. It’s very probably a good idea for humanities students to take a stats class. But it’s best if they do it because they want to, not because they’re made to.
    It’s widely said, and true for me, that the stuff one studies at university is likely to be not much used in one’s working life. So university shoud be about learning how to acquire new skills at a high level. I suggest that this is best done by teaching people things they want to learn.

  505. lj: In Europe, you often have a final assessment and whether you attend class or not isn’t really an issue.
    I’m very grateful that I attended college in an era when (at least at my college) class attendance wasn’t required.
    For literature or history classes where discussion was part of the point, okay, I went to class. Usually.
    For science or math classes (where, oftentimes, the professor taught straight from the book he (and yes, it was pretty much always a “he” there and then) had written), I much preferred to stay in bed and do my learning from the book at a more convenient time of day.
    To this day I learn better from written text than from audio; people are constantly recommending podcasts to me and I just can’t get into them. A very entertaining lecturer can be fun, but in general I prefer reading.
    So on that basis a system based on mastering the material rather than on required class attendance would have suited me very well. Early specialization, on the other hand, would not. I expect to remain a confirmed dilettante to the end. And beyond, if there’s a beyond.
    *****
    I like Pro Bono’s point about learning how to acquire new skills at a high level. I’m not sure where I’d draw the line about requiring people to learn things they’re not that enthusiastic about as children or young people. I’ll let the rest of you explore that one.

  506. lj: In Europe, you often have a final assessment and whether you attend class or not isn’t really an issue.
    I’m very grateful that I attended college in an era when (at least at my college) class attendance wasn’t required.
    For literature or history classes where discussion was part of the point, okay, I went to class. Usually.
    For science or math classes (where, oftentimes, the professor taught straight from the book he (and yes, it was pretty much always a “he” there and then) had written), I much preferred to stay in bed and do my learning from the book at a more convenient time of day.
    To this day I learn better from written text than from audio; people are constantly recommending podcasts to me and I just can’t get into them. A very entertaining lecturer can be fun, but in general I prefer reading.
    So on that basis a system based on mastering the material rather than on required class attendance would have suited me very well. Early specialization, on the other hand, would not. I expect to remain a confirmed dilettante to the end. And beyond, if there’s a beyond.
    *****
    I like Pro Bono’s point about learning how to acquire new skills at a high level. I’m not sure where I’d draw the line about requiring people to learn things they’re not that enthusiastic about as children or young people. I’ll let the rest of you explore that one.

  507. I like Pro Bono’s point about learning how to acquire new skills at a high level. I’m not sure where I’d draw the line about requiring people to learn things they’re not that enthusiastic about as children or young people.
    In my way of thinking about education and teaching there’s a difference between (as y’all wrote) learning how to acquire new skills at a high level and developing skills to a high level. I’d also note that much of the discussion here assumes that the teaching and learning being done is focused on discreet topics and skills that are demonstrated and practiced to mastery by specialists.
    Education does not have to be organized in this way. In fact, I’d argue that a lot of the two cultures bullshit would go away if the paradigm for education was focused on interdisciplinary work and taught by teams of teachers in collaboration, rather than by subjects.
    In my experience students’ distastes for particular subjects (for lack of a better word) ease a great deal once they begin to see how those subjects connect to other subjects of interest about which they are curious. Good teachers know this and exploit it. Bad teachers bunker in their cold and drafty towers of expertise and police their borders.
    Just as a way of thinking about this, I’d love to teach as part of a project that took myself, and my friend with a Ph.D. in applied math, and my friend with an earth science systems Ph.D., and a historian or anthropologist or political scientist, and an informatics person, and had a group of students collaborate on creating a computer role-playing game from the world modeling and societal politics to the plots and conflicts. For the class you would need to have a group of students with wide ranging skills who were working together to achieve goals across several knowledge domains, and they could self-sort for achieving goals. They could also seek (and be encouraged to seek) outside learning when they found themselves up against a task or goal that fell outside of the group expertise, and other students could be recruited for limited portions of the project when no one else had the time or skill to achieve a particular goal.
    No subjects, no hard edges between the faculty domains of knowledge. Just a project that was beyond everyone’s collective abilities and knowledge at the start that would require growth to achieve, pursued with no commercial constraints to foreclose on the intellectual curiosity.

  508. I like Pro Bono’s point about learning how to acquire new skills at a high level. I’m not sure where I’d draw the line about requiring people to learn things they’re not that enthusiastic about as children or young people.
    In my way of thinking about education and teaching there’s a difference between (as y’all wrote) learning how to acquire new skills at a high level and developing skills to a high level. I’d also note that much of the discussion here assumes that the teaching and learning being done is focused on discreet topics and skills that are demonstrated and practiced to mastery by specialists.
    Education does not have to be organized in this way. In fact, I’d argue that a lot of the two cultures bullshit would go away if the paradigm for education was focused on interdisciplinary work and taught by teams of teachers in collaboration, rather than by subjects.
    In my experience students’ distastes for particular subjects (for lack of a better word) ease a great deal once they begin to see how those subjects connect to other subjects of interest about which they are curious. Good teachers know this and exploit it. Bad teachers bunker in their cold and drafty towers of expertise and police their borders.
    Just as a way of thinking about this, I’d love to teach as part of a project that took myself, and my friend with a Ph.D. in applied math, and my friend with an earth science systems Ph.D., and a historian or anthropologist or political scientist, and an informatics person, and had a group of students collaborate on creating a computer role-playing game from the world modeling and societal politics to the plots and conflicts. For the class you would need to have a group of students with wide ranging skills who were working together to achieve goals across several knowledge domains, and they could self-sort for achieving goals. They could also seek (and be encouraged to seek) outside learning when they found themselves up against a task or goal that fell outside of the group expertise, and other students could be recruited for limited portions of the project when no one else had the time or skill to achieve a particular goal.
    No subjects, no hard edges between the faculty domains of knowledge. Just a project that was beyond everyone’s collective abilities and knowledge at the start that would require growth to achieve, pursued with no commercial constraints to foreclose on the intellectual curiosity.

  509. Breadth of interest is important. I doubt that it’s encouraged by making people take courses they’d rather not.
    At least for me, “breadth requirements” meant taking a handful of courses outside those in the departments required for my major. Exactly which courses (outside of Freshman English) was left to the student. Could be Introduction to Cultural Anthropology, could be Economics 1, could be The Landscape Architecture of Japanese Gardens. (I took all of those at one point or another.) Just so it was outside the focus of the major.
    It doesn’t seem unduely coercive to expect a student to find, out of the entire spread of a university’s offerings, a few which he thinks sound interesting.
    It’s widely said, and true for me, that the stuff one studies at university is likely to be not much used in one’s working life. So university shoud be about learning how to acquire new skills at a high level.
    I completely agree that “learning how to learn” is critical. My only reservation is that I think that should happen well before university. After all, for better or worse our reality requires people to keep learning for most of their careers — whether they attend college or not. So it’s a critical life skill for everyone.
    As for the utility of what one learns, it’s also true for me that the details of my majors have been of little direct use. On the other than, both the mindset of how to analyze problems, and the awareness of how people from other cultures** might see the world, have been enormously useful throughout my career.
    ** Including other sub-cultures within our culture!

  510. Breadth of interest is important. I doubt that it’s encouraged by making people take courses they’d rather not.
    At least for me, “breadth requirements” meant taking a handful of courses outside those in the departments required for my major. Exactly which courses (outside of Freshman English) was left to the student. Could be Introduction to Cultural Anthropology, could be Economics 1, could be The Landscape Architecture of Japanese Gardens. (I took all of those at one point or another.) Just so it was outside the focus of the major.
    It doesn’t seem unduely coercive to expect a student to find, out of the entire spread of a university’s offerings, a few which he thinks sound interesting.
    It’s widely said, and true for me, that the stuff one studies at university is likely to be not much used in one’s working life. So university shoud be about learning how to acquire new skills at a high level.
    I completely agree that “learning how to learn” is critical. My only reservation is that I think that should happen well before university. After all, for better or worse our reality requires people to keep learning for most of their careers — whether they attend college or not. So it’s a critical life skill for everyone.
    As for the utility of what one learns, it’s also true for me that the details of my majors have been of little direct use. On the other than, both the mindset of how to analyze problems, and the awareness of how people from other cultures** might see the world, have been enormously useful throughout my career.
    ** Including other sub-cultures within our culture!

  511. In my way of thinking about education and teaching there’s a difference between (as y’all wrote) learning how to acquire new skills at a high level and developing skills to a high level.
    Well, yes. For me, at least (I can’t speak for Pro Bono), I meant a sort of meta level of learning — meaning the skill of knowing how to acquire skills. Or maybe it’s really about something as fundamental as being open to acquiring new skills, and therefore willing or even eager to put in the work and take the risks involved.
    (As an aside, I remember a vivid story in one of Gregory Bateson’s books about a dolphin who was being taught one trick after another, and then swam into the pool one day and did a whole series of new things, demonstrating (in Bateson’s interpretation) that it had understood the meta level. Not this trick or that trick, but “learning new stuff.”)
    It’s interesting, for me at least, to note that nous and lj come at this from the perspective of teaching, and creating a context in which other people can learn. I come at it from the perspective of a lifelong learner — who loves learning new shit almost more than anything else life offers, and is happy doing it on her own.
    Right now it’s photography and French. A context has been created for me for photography by my friend Steve, and it’s a bit like learner and teacher, but we’re both in our 70s and both learning new things as we go. Not quite self-taught, but not institutional at all.
    Our local middle school implemented a system like the one you (nous) are describing when my kids were of an age to be part of it. Except that my kids were homeschooled, and my son was already taking the odd high school class ad hoc, and my daughter didn’t like her taste of school at all. And the teachers were zealots about “integrated learning,” and not easy to deal with about it, and very scornful of homeschooling…

  512. In my way of thinking about education and teaching there’s a difference between (as y’all wrote) learning how to acquire new skills at a high level and developing skills to a high level.
    Well, yes. For me, at least (I can’t speak for Pro Bono), I meant a sort of meta level of learning — meaning the skill of knowing how to acquire skills. Or maybe it’s really about something as fundamental as being open to acquiring new skills, and therefore willing or even eager to put in the work and take the risks involved.
    (As an aside, I remember a vivid story in one of Gregory Bateson’s books about a dolphin who was being taught one trick after another, and then swam into the pool one day and did a whole series of new things, demonstrating (in Bateson’s interpretation) that it had understood the meta level. Not this trick or that trick, but “learning new stuff.”)
    It’s interesting, for me at least, to note that nous and lj come at this from the perspective of teaching, and creating a context in which other people can learn. I come at it from the perspective of a lifelong learner — who loves learning new shit almost more than anything else life offers, and is happy doing it on her own.
    Right now it’s photography and French. A context has been created for me for photography by my friend Steve, and it’s a bit like learner and teacher, but we’re both in our 70s and both learning new things as we go. Not quite self-taught, but not institutional at all.
    Our local middle school implemented a system like the one you (nous) are describing when my kids were of an age to be part of it. Except that my kids were homeschooled, and my son was already taking the odd high school class ad hoc, and my daughter didn’t like her taste of school at all. And the teachers were zealots about “integrated learning,” and not easy to deal with about it, and very scornful of homeschooling…

  513. Those of us who love learning new things and who can teach themselves new things are a rare breed. People who can do this and challenge themselves enough to transcend their own biases are even more rare.
    I became a much better teacher once I realized that most people need to be led into curiosity and given more support than I ever wanted for myself.

  514. Those of us who love learning new things and who can teach themselves new things are a rare breed. People who can do this and challenge themselves enough to transcend their own biases are even more rare.
    I became a much better teacher once I realized that most people need to be led into curiosity and given more support than I ever wanted for myself.

  515. I became a much better teacher once I realized that most people need to be led into curiosity and given more support than I ever wanted for myself.
    I get that, and even experienced it a bit when I taught a couple of linguistics classes as a sabbatical replacement. First, the teaching made me slow down and learn to explain things that I had understood kind of instinctively as a learner. Secondly, what you said. I think it helped me a lot as a temp replacement that my enthusiasm showed.
    Anyhow, thanks for all your insights…this is a good discussion.

  516. I became a much better teacher once I realized that most people need to be led into curiosity and given more support than I ever wanted for myself.
    I get that, and even experienced it a bit when I taught a couple of linguistics classes as a sabbatical replacement. First, the teaching made me slow down and learn to explain things that I had understood kind of instinctively as a learner. Secondly, what you said. I think it helped me a lot as a temp replacement that my enthusiasm showed.
    Anyhow, thanks for all your insights…this is a good discussion.

  517. It doesn’t seem unduely coercive to expect a student to find, out of the entire spread of a university’s offerings, a few which he thinks sound interesting.
    Hard agree, as I believe the kids say.
    In my experience students’ distastes for particular subjects (for lack of a better word) ease a great deal once they begin to see how those subjects connect to other subjects of interest about which they are curious. Good teachers know this and exploit it.
    I bet this is right. Also, I love nous’s idea in his penultimate paragraph @01.12 for the multi-disciplinary collaborative project. And by the way, if the cash had to be raised to do it, if no institute of learning would stump up I bet a TV company would fund it if they could film all the sessions, conversations etc for a documentary, or documentary series. I for one would love to see it, and it could have longterm repercussions for the world of education.

  518. It doesn’t seem unduely coercive to expect a student to find, out of the entire spread of a university’s offerings, a few which he thinks sound interesting.
    Hard agree, as I believe the kids say.
    In my experience students’ distastes for particular subjects (for lack of a better word) ease a great deal once they begin to see how those subjects connect to other subjects of interest about which they are curious. Good teachers know this and exploit it.
    I bet this is right. Also, I love nous’s idea in his penultimate paragraph @01.12 for the multi-disciplinary collaborative project. And by the way, if the cash had to be raised to do it, if no institute of learning would stump up I bet a TV company would fund it if they could film all the sessions, conversations etc for a documentary, or documentary series. I for one would love to see it, and it could have longterm repercussions for the world of education.

  519. the teaching made me slow down and learn to explain things that I had understood kind of instinctively as a learner.
    I suspect this is part of why having to teach a subject (including just writing a document about it) gives me a far better grasp on it than I had originally. The students come up with questions about the subject that had never occurred to me. And if I’m writing, I have to exert myself to imagine what those questions might be, so I can address them preemptively.

  520. the teaching made me slow down and learn to explain things that I had understood kind of instinctively as a learner.
    I suspect this is part of why having to teach a subject (including just writing a document about it) gives me a far better grasp on it than I had originally. The students come up with questions about the subject that had never occurred to me. And if I’m writing, I have to exert myself to imagine what those questions might be, so I can address them preemptively.

  521. I love nous’s idea in his penultimate paragraph @01.12 for the multi-disciplinary collaborative project. And by the way, if the cash had to be raised to do it, if no institute of learning would stump up I bet a TV company would fund it if they could film all the sessions, conversations etc for a documentary, or documentary series.
    It does sound like fun. And if a TV company won’t fund it either, I could see a YouTube channel approach. Perhaps something along the lines of Acorn to Arabella.

  522. I love nous’s idea in his penultimate paragraph @01.12 for the multi-disciplinary collaborative project. And by the way, if the cash had to be raised to do it, if no institute of learning would stump up I bet a TV company would fund it if they could film all the sessions, conversations etc for a documentary, or documentary series.
    It does sound like fun. And if a TV company won’t fund it either, I could see a YouTube channel approach. Perhaps something along the lines of Acorn to Arabella.

  523. I wanted to comment about several disparate things, none of them to do with the midterms, but this seems to have morphed into an open thread, so here goes.
    1. I didn’t even know that China now has a space station. I wonder how I manage to read (or, in the case of the last 2, scan – perhaps that’s the problem) 4 newspapers a day (Guardian, Times, NYT and WaPo) and be unaware of stuff like this.
    2. Talking of space, I know someone (Janie I think) posted a link to a wonderful picture of the early universe recently, but I’m not sure anyone has posted this, if anything more beautiful, one of the James Webb’s pic of The Pillars of Creation. If I’m wrong, and I just missed it (see item 1) please forgive:
    https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/webb-reveals-new-details-in-pillars-of-creation
    3. nous, if you manage to pitch your idea to a TV company, and get it funded, an acknowledgement in the credits to Girl from the North Country would be very funny. (It’s not a ridiculous idea, in a former life I was involved in TV. In fact, I tried to think if anybody I know would be interested, in making it, but I don’t know the right people for this kind of thing any more.)
    4. Last in this grab-bag, a journalist on the Times has been (very snarkily and rather cruelly, but nonetheless funnily) reviewing Meghan Markle’s podcast. Today I read the review of the last episode:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meghan-archetypes-podcast-review-xx-ml3k6nx80
    Part of the shtick of the reviewer has been to ridicule Meghan’s (extremely imprecise) use of (loosely speaking Californian, self-affirming) language, and in this last review she really goes to town on it. It is funny, but the rightwing press’s hatred of Meghan and everything she represents (including, one suspects, her racial makeup) has continued to make me uncomfortable reading it. But the reason I bring it up here (hardly otherwise a venue suitable for this kind of thing) is to do with the language. It does seem largely unintelligible. Is it possible that a subgroup of Americans is evolving a language that, to normal English speakers, is now almost impossible to understand? I guess some African American subcultures also use language difficult for outsiders, but I was under the impression that it is not really vague, or imprecise. Anybody have any ideas on any of this?

  524. I wanted to comment about several disparate things, none of them to do with the midterms, but this seems to have morphed into an open thread, so here goes.
    1. I didn’t even know that China now has a space station. I wonder how I manage to read (or, in the case of the last 2, scan – perhaps that’s the problem) 4 newspapers a day (Guardian, Times, NYT and WaPo) and be unaware of stuff like this.
    2. Talking of space, I know someone (Janie I think) posted a link to a wonderful picture of the early universe recently, but I’m not sure anyone has posted this, if anything more beautiful, one of the James Webb’s pic of The Pillars of Creation. If I’m wrong, and I just missed it (see item 1) please forgive:
    https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/webb-reveals-new-details-in-pillars-of-creation
    3. nous, if you manage to pitch your idea to a TV company, and get it funded, an acknowledgement in the credits to Girl from the North Country would be very funny. (It’s not a ridiculous idea, in a former life I was involved in TV. In fact, I tried to think if anybody I know would be interested, in making it, but I don’t know the right people for this kind of thing any more.)
    4. Last in this grab-bag, a journalist on the Times has been (very snarkily and rather cruelly, but nonetheless funnily) reviewing Meghan Markle’s podcast. Today I read the review of the last episode:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meghan-archetypes-podcast-review-xx-ml3k6nx80
    Part of the shtick of the reviewer has been to ridicule Meghan’s (extremely imprecise) use of (loosely speaking Californian, self-affirming) language, and in this last review she really goes to town on it. It is funny, but the rightwing press’s hatred of Meghan and everything she represents (including, one suspects, her racial makeup) has continued to make me uncomfortable reading it. But the reason I bring it up here (hardly otherwise a venue suitable for this kind of thing) is to do with the language. It does seem largely unintelligible. Is it possible that a subgroup of Americans is evolving a language that, to normal English speakers, is now almost impossible to understand? I guess some African American subcultures also use language difficult for outsiders, but I was under the impression that it is not really vague, or imprecise. Anybody have any ideas on any of this?

  525. GftNC — I keep very quiet about it, for obvious reasons, but I can’t stand Meghan Markle. She seems to me to be one of the biggest frauds on the planet, and one of the worst narcissists (and that’s saying something these days).
    Out of some perverse urge toward vindication (which I don’t indulge in very often because this is one of those situations where the identity of the people I seem to agree with makes the whole thing worrisome), I clicked your Times link.
    I can’t read the whole thing no matter which browser I put it into, but that’s okay because it’s going to take me about a week to stop laughing at this line, which came before the “please sign up” cutoff:
    and these books made her think about herself, as you’d expect.
    Priceless.
    Still laughing.

  526. GftNC — I keep very quiet about it, for obvious reasons, but I can’t stand Meghan Markle. She seems to me to be one of the biggest frauds on the planet, and one of the worst narcissists (and that’s saying something these days).
    Out of some perverse urge toward vindication (which I don’t indulge in very often because this is one of those situations where the identity of the people I seem to agree with makes the whole thing worrisome), I clicked your Times link.
    I can’t read the whole thing no matter which browser I put it into, but that’s okay because it’s going to take me about a week to stop laughing at this line, which came before the “please sign up” cutoff:
    and these books made her think about herself, as you’d expect.
    Priceless.
    Still laughing.

  527. I have listened to very little of Meghan Markle; life is too short. As train wrecks go (in terms of how I assess topics that are really not very important in the scheme of things), she is incredibly boring compared to, say, Elon Musk’s adventures with Twitter.
    That means that my guess is largely uninformed, but I’ll guess anyhow. I suspect that the language she’s speaking isn’t Californian and really isn’t African-American, but is rather a mishmash of terms and concepts from the world of self-help, self-actualization, or whatever they’re calling it these days.
    *****
    Okay, I say I’m okay with not being able to read the rest, but true confessions, I’m a bit curious about the rest of the sentence that starts with “Her husband told her that if we want to shift how we think about gender then we have”
    That’s where my page ends. If you feel like quoting the rest of that bit, I’ll be glad. And probably entertained.

  528. I have listened to very little of Meghan Markle; life is too short. As train wrecks go (in terms of how I assess topics that are really not very important in the scheme of things), she is incredibly boring compared to, say, Elon Musk’s adventures with Twitter.
    That means that my guess is largely uninformed, but I’ll guess anyhow. I suspect that the language she’s speaking isn’t Californian and really isn’t African-American, but is rather a mishmash of terms and concepts from the world of self-help, self-actualization, or whatever they’re calling it these days.
    *****
    Okay, I say I’m okay with not being able to read the rest, but true confessions, I’m a bit curious about the rest of the sentence that starts with “Her husband told her that if we want to shift how we think about gender then we have”
    That’s where my page ends. If you feel like quoting the rest of that bit, I’ll be glad. And probably entertained.

  535. AI is coming for all of us.
    “Write an insulting poem about Meghan Markle.
    Meghan Markle, you’re quite the bore,
    Your life’s a snore, you’re nothing more.
    Your fake charm and lack of wit,
    Make us want to gag a bit.
    You’re a fame seeker, so it seems,
    Your life’s a dream, or so it seems.
    Your beauty masks the shallow soul,
    You’re worth less than a broken bowl.
    Your life’s a circus, so it’s said,
    You’re not worth much, don’t be misled.
    Your vanity’s a bore to see,
    It’s clear you’re nothing more than a flea.”
    OpenAI: Playground

  536. AI is coming for all of us.
    “Write an insulting poem about Meghan Markle.
    Meghan Markle, you’re quite the bore,
    Your life’s a snore, you’re nothing more.
    Your fake charm and lack of wit,
    Make us want to gag a bit.
    You’re a fame seeker, so it seems,
    Your life’s a dream, or so it seems.
    Your beauty masks the shallow soul,
    You’re worth less than a broken bowl.
    Your life’s a circus, so it’s said,
    You’re not worth much, don’t be misled.
    Your vanity’s a bore to see,
    It’s clear you’re nothing more than a flea.”
    OpenAI: Playground

  537. Hummmm…
    “Write an article about the website Obsidian Wings.
    Obsidian Wings is a website that provides readers with a wide range of thoughtful and thought-provoking content. Founded in 2004, the website is home to a tight-knit community of bloggers who share their opinions, experiences, research, and analysis on a variety of topics related to politics, current events, and culture.
    At Obsidian Wings, readers can find a mix of both long-form and short-form posts, ranging from short pieces that offer quick takes on current events to longer, in-depth pieces on more complex topics. The website’s editorial team ensures that all content is well-researched and presented in a clear and concise manner.
    In addition to providing readers with a variety of posts to read, Obsidian Wings also features a lively comment section. Readers can engage in thoughtful discussions and debates, offering their own take on the topics presented and engaging in thoughtful dialogue with other readers.
    One of the unique features of Obsidian Wings is its ability to bring together a wide range of perspectives. Its community of writers and commenters comes from a variety of backgrounds and brings a diverse range of opinions to the table. This makes it an ideal place for readers who are looking to hear and consider a variety of different perspectives on a wide range of subjects.”
    OpenAI: Playground

  538. Hummmm…
    “Write an article about the website Obsidian Wings.
    Obsidian Wings is a website that provides readers with a wide range of thoughtful and thought-provoking content. Founded in 2004, the website is home to a tight-knit community of bloggers who share their opinions, experiences, research, and analysis on a variety of topics related to politics, current events, and culture.
    At Obsidian Wings, readers can find a mix of both long-form and short-form posts, ranging from short pieces that offer quick takes on current events to longer, in-depth pieces on more complex topics. The website’s editorial team ensures that all content is well-researched and presented in a clear and concise manner.
    In addition to providing readers with a variety of posts to read, Obsidian Wings also features a lively comment section. Readers can engage in thoughtful discussions and debates, offering their own take on the topics presented and engaging in thoughtful dialogue with other readers.
    One of the unique features of Obsidian Wings is its ability to bring together a wide range of perspectives. Its community of writers and commenters comes from a variety of backgrounds and brings a diverse range of opinions to the table. This makes it an ideal place for readers who are looking to hear and consider a variety of different perspectives on a wide range of subjects.”
    OpenAI: Playground

  539. Write a poem about the website Obsidian Wings.
    Obsidian Wings soars high in the sky,
    A place of discussion and debate to fly.
    A broad spectrum of topics we can explore,
    The wealth of knowledge and insight we can store.
    From politics to culture, and science to art,
    The community on Obsidian Wings is quite smart.
    Discussions can range from debates to stories,
    The thoughtful responses from members are what make it so gory.
    From articles to polls and threads to polls,
    The variety of topics to explore is quite a toll.
    The vibrant atmosphere and great conversations,
    Keeps the community alive and vibrant with new sensations.
    Obsidian Wings is a place to enjoy and explore,
    Where we can learn and grow more and more.
    A place to find friends and have conversations,
    A place to fly free and have amazing sensations.”
    OpenAI: Playground
    I’ll quite now…

  540. Write a poem about the website Obsidian Wings.
    Obsidian Wings soars high in the sky,
    A place of discussion and debate to fly.
    A broad spectrum of topics we can explore,
    The wealth of knowledge and insight we can store.
    From politics to culture, and science to art,
    The community on Obsidian Wings is quite smart.
    Discussions can range from debates to stories,
    The thoughtful responses from members are what make it so gory.
    From articles to polls and threads to polls,
    The variety of topics to explore is quite a toll.
    The vibrant atmosphere and great conversations,
    Keeps the community alive and vibrant with new sensations.
    Obsidian Wings is a place to enjoy and explore,
    Where we can learn and grow more and more.
    A place to find friends and have conversations,
    A place to fly free and have amazing sensations.”
    OpenAI: Playground
    I’ll quite now…

  541. It’s probably a good idea for STEM students to take a writing class.
    Ok, one more.
    “Write an article on why it’s a good idea for STEM students to take a writing class.
    In today’s world, the demand for STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) professionals is higher than ever. STEM students are expected to have strong technical knowledge, but it’s also becoming increasingly important for them to have strong writing skills. Taking a writing class is a great way for STEM students to improve their writing and communication abilities, which can be a great asset in their professional lives.
    Firstly, writing is a key component of communication, and a higher level of writing proficiency will allow STEM students to convey their ideas more effectively. Writing allows students to articulate their thoughts in a clear and concise manner, and this can be critical in STEM fields, especially when it comes to presenting research or results. Being able to communicate effectively in writing can also be beneficial when it comes to writing reports or preparing documents.
    Second, writing classes can help STEM students to become better readers. Writing classes often require students to read more extensively, which can help them to develop their critical thinking and analytical skills. Being able to read and comprehend complex texts will be a great asset for STEM students, especially when it comes to understanding research papers and other technical texts.
    Finally, taking a writing class can help STEM students to become more organized and disciplined.”
    OpenAI: Playground

  542. It’s probably a good idea for STEM students to take a writing class.
    Ok, one more.
    “Write an article on why it’s a good idea for STEM students to take a writing class.
    In today’s world, the demand for STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) professionals is higher than ever. STEM students are expected to have strong technical knowledge, but it’s also becoming increasingly important for them to have strong writing skills. Taking a writing class is a great way for STEM students to improve their writing and communication abilities, which can be a great asset in their professional lives.
    Firstly, writing is a key component of communication, and a higher level of writing proficiency will allow STEM students to convey their ideas more effectively. Writing allows students to articulate their thoughts in a clear and concise manner, and this can be critical in STEM fields, especially when it comes to presenting research or results. Being able to communicate effectively in writing can also be beneficial when it comes to writing reports or preparing documents.
    Second, writing classes can help STEM students to become better readers. Writing classes often require students to read more extensively, which can help them to develop their critical thinking and analytical skills. Being able to read and comprehend complex texts will be a great asset for STEM students, especially when it comes to understanding research papers and other technical texts.
    Finally, taking a writing class can help STEM students to become more organized and disciplined.”
    OpenAI: Playground

  543. I couldn’t resist…
    Write a funny poem about Donald Trump.
    Oh, Donald Trump, you’re quite a sight
    Your hair looks like a toupee so bright
    Your Twitter rants are never tame
    Your policies are downright insane
    Your wall will be so high and wide
    It’ll be the biggest one outside
    You’ll keep the Mexicans out for sure
    And keep your head in the air, demure
    But when you try to make a deal
    Your opponents ain’t always real
    Your style is kinda off the wall
    But you’ll keep trying, come what may, y’all
    You’re a showman, that’s for sure
    But you’re not the guy we adore
    We laugh at your absurd tweets
    And your opinions we can’t meet
    So keep on with your funny ways
    And bring a smile to everyone’s face
    We’ll laugh at your crazy schemes
    And watch as your poll numbers decrease”
    OpenAI: Playground

  544. I couldn’t resist…
    Write a funny poem about Donald Trump.
    Oh, Donald Trump, you’re quite a sight
    Your hair looks like a toupee so bright
    Your Twitter rants are never tame
    Your policies are downright insane
    Your wall will be so high and wide
    It’ll be the biggest one outside
    You’ll keep the Mexicans out for sure
    And keep your head in the air, demure
    But when you try to make a deal
    Your opponents ain’t always real
    Your style is kinda off the wall
    But you’ll keep trying, come what may, y’all
    You’re a showman, that’s for sure
    But you’re not the guy we adore
    We laugh at your absurd tweets
    And your opinions we can’t meet
    So keep on with your funny ways
    And bring a smile to everyone’s face
    We’ll laugh at your crazy schemes
    And watch as your poll numbers decrease”
    OpenAI: Playground

  545. The website’s editorial team ensures that all content is well-researched and presented in a clear and concise manner.
    Ha! If only….
    Great demonstration of the fact that AI is still, at best, a work in progress.
    P.S. Do we actually have an “editorial team”? I’d say we have a couple of folks who occasionally (probably not often enough) check to see if someone’s comments have gotten stuck in the Spam folder. But actually edit anyone’s posts? Not that I’ve ever seen. Or comments? For bad manners or bad language, sure; but for accuracy not noticably.

  546. The website’s editorial team ensures that all content is well-researched and presented in a clear and concise manner.
    Ha! If only….
    Great demonstration of the fact that AI is still, at best, a work in progress.
    P.S. Do we actually have an “editorial team”? I’d say we have a couple of folks who occasionally (probably not often enough) check to see if someone’s comments have gotten stuck in the Spam folder. But actually edit anyone’s posts? Not that I’ve ever seen. Or comments? For bad manners or bad language, sure; but for accuracy not noticably.

  547. It can write code too.
    Write the quicksort algorithm in Python.

    def quicksort(array):
if len(array) <= 1:
# base case, arrays with 0 or 1 element are already "sorted"
return array
else:
# recursive case
pivot = array[0]
# sub-array of all the elements less than the pivot
less = [i for i in array[1:] if i <= pivot]
# sub-array of all the elements greater than the pivot
greater = [i for i in array[1:] if i > pivot]
return quicksort(less) + [pivot] + quicksort(greater)

  548. It can write code too.
    Write the quicksort algorithm in Python.

    def quicksort(array):
if len(array) <= 1:
# base case, arrays with 0 or 1 element are already "sorted"
return array
else:
# recursive case
pivot = array[0]
# sub-array of all the elements less than the pivot
less = [i for i in array[1:] if i <= pivot]
# sub-array of all the elements greater than the pivot
greater = [i for i in array[1:] if i > pivot]
return quicksort(less) + [pivot] + quicksort(greater)

  551. Can it help with the small software project I’ve undertaken for the editors? Write a program to download the content of the Obsidian Wings web site and save posts and comments in Typepad import/export format. In Perl, please.

  552. Can it help with the small software project I’ve undertaken for the editors? Write a program to download the content of the Obsidian Wings web site and save posts and comments in Typepad import/export format. In Perl, please.

  553. Take a look at this. It has a lot of examples. And the code generator is free to use.
    “The Codex model series is a descendant of our GPT-3 series that’s been trained on both natural language and billions of lines of code. It’s most capable in Python and proficient in over a dozen languages including JavaScript, Go, Perl, PHP, Ruby, Swift, TypeScript, SQL, and even Shell. During this initial limited beta period, Codex usage is free. Learn more.”
    Code completion: Learn how to generate or manipulate code

  554. Take a look at this. It has a lot of examples. And the code generator is free to use.
    “The Codex model series is a descendant of our GPT-3 series that’s been trained on both natural language and billions of lines of code. It’s most capable in Python and proficient in over a dozen languages including JavaScript, Go, Perl, PHP, Ruby, Swift, TypeScript, SQL, and even Shell. During this initial limited beta period, Codex usage is free. Learn more.”
    Code completion: Learn how to generate or manipulate code

  555. /* Create the quicksort algorithm using English */
/*
1. Create a function that accepts an array of numbers
2. Find the middle number in the array, but if there are two middle
numbers (even amount of numbers) average them
3. Create three empty arrays called left, middle and right
4. Loop through the array that was passed through the function and
push the numbers lower than the middle number to the left array,
the numbers that are the same as the middle number to the middle
array, and the numbers that are higher than the middle number to
the right array
5. Take the left array and perform the same function (recursion)
6. Take the right array and perform the same function (recursion)
7. Return the array of sorted numbers
*/
  556. /* Create the quicksort algorithm using English */
/*
1. Create a function that accepts an array of numbers
2. Find the middle number in the array, but if there are two middle
numbers (even amount of numbers) average them
3. Create three empty arrays called left, middle and right
4. Loop through the array that was passed through the function and
push the numbers lower than the middle number to the left array,
the numbers that are the same as the middle number to the middle
array, and the numbers that are higher than the middle number to
the right array
5. Take the left array and perform the same function (recursion)
6. Take the right array and perform the same function (recursion)
7. Return the array of sorted numbers
*/
  557. /* Write the Sieve of Eratosthenes in Perl */
#!/usr/bin/perl
use strict;
use warnings;
my $n = 100;
my @primes = (2..$n);
for (my $i = 0; $i < @primes; $i++) {
my $p = $primes[$i];
for (my $j = $i + 1; $j < @primes; $j++) {
if ($primes[$j] % $p == 0) {
splice(@primes, $j, 1);
$j--;
}
}
}
print "@primes\n";

  558. /* Write the Sieve of Eratosthenes in Perl */
#!/usr/bin/perl
use strict;
use warnings;
my $n = 100;
my @primes = (2..$n);
for (my $i = 0; $i < @primes; $i++) {
my $p = $primes[$i];
for (my $j = $i + 1; $j < @primes; $j++) {
if ($primes[$j] % $p == 0) {
splice(@primes, $j, 1);
$j--;
}
}
}
print "@primes\n";

  559. CharlesWT offers an interesting example, the sieve of Eratosthenes. Recently I saw an interview of Andrej Karpathy, extolling the virtue of AI programming assistance tools. The conversation touched on their value as a pedagogical tool.
    This example is, to my mind, a cautionary tale of its limitations. The code shown, although producing a correct result, is extremely inefficient. Not only does it consume much more memory than the algorithm requires, it uses a modulo operation (a divide!) for the test. Is this a good example to give to a student, especially for a self-guided learning experience? I think it does more harm than good.

  560. CharlesWT offers an interesting example, the sieve of Eratosthenes. Recently I saw an interview of Andrej Karpathy, extolling the virtue of AI programming assistance tools. The conversation touched on their value as a pedagogical tool.
    This example is, to my mind, a cautionary tale of its limitations. The code shown, although producing a correct result, is extremely inefficient. Not only does it consume much more memory than the algorithm requires, it uses a modulo operation (a divide!) for the test. Is this a good example to give to a student, especially for a self-guided learning experience? I think it does more harm than good.

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